Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)

Topic 206 · 56 responses · archived october 2000

» This is an archived thread from 2000. Want to pick up where they left off? post in the live Austen conference →

~Amy Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (22:20) seed

Older messages about Emma 3 are in the AustenArchive conference. Here are the last few messages: Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 177 of 182: SusanC (Susan) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (20:45) * 9 lines Ladies (and Gentlemen), we have our own Emma3 thread now, and no one's posting to it! Where are all my fellow supporters? I'll start by responding to Kathleen's message above. I do love MS's eyes -- they are gorgeous and luminous; very expressive. And I grow more and more enchanted with his performance, as you do. I reread parts of the book over the last few days and I must say his portrayal was really close to "my" Mr. Knightley. A lot of the dialogue in this production was also verbatim from the book. I, too, really enjoyed Mr. Elton in this production, although I cannot say I saw the resemblance between him and CF that others did. He did seem to be more a part of Mrs. Elton's illbred behavior in this version; the others seem to cast him more as condoning, not abetting, her behavior. Last, this is not an attack on Emma2, so please don't anyone take it that way, but I look on it as more of a "Hollywood," Americanized production of a British novel. It was not a "bad" adaptation -- it had lots of good points and I will watch it again with pleasure, but I think the British productions are better able to create the feel of the books, as Emma3 did. Now -- that should be enough fodder for all sorts of comments, both pro and con! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 178 of 182: Inko (Inko) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:06) * 7 lines Susan, I'm so glad you posted that. I agree with you. I just got a copy of Emma 3 (new, on sale at Border's)and am looking forward to watching a "clean" version of it. I also thought it stayed truer to the book, but, on the other hand, I've only seen Emma2 once in the theatre, so all real comparisons will have to wait till the video of Emma2 is available. But when I saw it my reaction, on coming out of the theatre, was that it was a very pretty lot of vignettes without too much cohesion to them. I missed having nearly nothing of Mr. Woodhouse; certainly they omitted his funny and annoying talk of food that's good for you and draughts, and general illnesses, etc. I also didn't see the similarity between Mr. Elton and CF. Emma3's Mr. Elton wasn't as slimy as Emma2's, but equally obnoxious if not more so. More to come when I can watch one tape right after the other! (Between watching P&P over and over, that is!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 179 of 182: kathleen (elder) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:08) * 8 lines Susan -- thank you for restarting us. After rewatching a few more times, I have found even more things that I like! I think you may have verbalized the different reactions I was having to Emma3 vs Emma2 (I tried to explain myself to an English professor, and I could not -- he has not yet watched Emma3, but loved Emma2). In any adaptation, the scriptwriter adds/deletes. The Emma3 lines about "But we are alone at night" would of course not have been part of JA's novel. But I love the look Emma & Knightley give each other right after she says this to her father. Another scene that was spot on in agreement with the novel was when Mr Knightley takes leave before going to London. He finds out that Emma has been to visit Miss Bates, and Emma's expression makes it clear that it's because of his opinion. He takes her hand and almost starts to raise it to his lips. This has always been a powerful scene in the book for me, and I think they did it just right. The actors' expressions are wonderful. [Susan, if necessary, we can carry on a small fan club discussion by ourselves!] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 180 of 182: Cassandra (cassandra) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:24) * 8 lines Since you invited opposing arguments....... Overall, I really respect and enjoy the differing views presented here. I love to debate. However, I hate how much of the criticism directed at Emma2 tends to be of a largely superficial nature-"the Hollywood-Americanized" argument. Or as KAli pointed out, a lot of the criticism is vented at the actors-GP being an American actress and JN is often criticized largely because of his youth and good looks. Since we have already exhausted much of the JN/MS debate, I'll just focus for a moment on GP. Firstly, ev n the Brits admitted that her accent was good, almost flawless in fact. Julia Roberts-GP is not. More importantly, she gave a wonderful, charming, touching performance. As I've said, her Emma was much more in keeping with my overall impressions and "the faultless in spite of her faults" theme. As for EMMA2, itself: Yes-It was directed and the written by an American, Doug McGrath. And personally, he did a helluva job, capturing(IMO) the spirit of the book. He is a brilliant, witty screen-writer. Bullets over Broadway immediately comes to mind-"don't speak!". My point, then, is that he should be judged on the basis of his work, not because he's an American. Overall, I think it's a gross generalization to say that the Brits are better able to capture the feel/look of these novels. After all, it was a British actress who won the most coveted role in Hollywood, making the most convincing of southern belles. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 181 of 182: Cindy Bernhard (bernhard) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:44) * 1 lines Kathleen, Susan, please don't leave me out of your little (the emphasis seems to be on little) fan club. I still consider myself to be a staunch Emma3er. I won't be getting my video for another couple of weeks, based on the schedule when ordered. Gosh, it'll be nice not to have to ff through all those commercials! It will be nice to do a truly direct comparison once 2 is released, but I don't anticipate a huge change of opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 182 of 182: kathleen (elder) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:46) * 8 lines Cassandra -- I am sorry you took Susan and my comments as criticisms of Emma2. I certainly did not mean it in any negative way. I was trying to verbalize my reactions to the two adaptations. I very much liked both of them -- I saw Emma2 seven times in three weeks. Your opinion is that Emma2 better captured the spirit of the book, and my opinion is that Emma3 did. They neither of them presented the whole story, of course, and I simply reread the novel for that. Anyway, I hope that we can discuss Emma3 without getting into a debate about which is the better adaptation -- I for one cannot say which is better, only what I prefer about each. (The only JA adaptation which I cannot bring myself to rewatch is the Olivier/Garson P&P.) Friends? :-) 1 new of

~elder Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (22:29) #1

There's a great picture of Dominic Rowan (Mr Elton) in The Making of Emma -- the caption reads: Mr Elton's over-dressed hair doesn't come naturally. Cominic Rowan suffers the indignity of . . . heated rollers. He is having makeup applied and has these rollers in his hair -- the expression on his face looks a bit dismayed!

~cassandra Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (22:43) #2

Kathleen-Of course!!! WE all adore Emma and Mr KNightley and it's wonderful that we can have so many options and choices. May this classical revival and onslaught of new adaptations continue!!! I agree about P&P0 too. Making Lady Catherine sympathetic? What were they thinking??

~Susan Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (23:47) #3

I'm so pleased to see all these postings, and fully expect them to continue, ok? Don't make me come after you!! I hope to watch Emma3 again before the weekend is over, and will post any new insights...

~Ann Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (00:28) #4

"He is having makeup applied and has these rollers in his hair" I want to know if anyone has a picture like that of Firth! He probably had to have the same things done to him. I would love to see a pic of him with curlers in his hair and one of those technicolor hair nets on. I would ROTFLOL.

~Ann2 Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (07:05) #5

I'm all astonishment at such unvarnished cruelty Ann! Don't think I could keep a straight face either though.I would snort at the very least.

~elder Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (08:28) #6

I thought the anagram scene was very well done (BLUNDER & DIXON). So many undercurrents, and all of them played very well. Frank & Jane, Frank & Emma, Mr Knightley's suspicions, Harriet's response to Mr Knightley -- quite delightful to watch all the players (hard to know whom to watch).

~Carolineevans Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (08:44) #7

The more I watch Emma3, the more I like it. The characterisation of Mr Knightly and Emma are just as I always imagined them to be. And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch.

~elder Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (09:06) #8

And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch. Do you suppose there will be a soundtrack? Oh, happy thought indeed!

~JohanneD Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (14:53) #9

]The more I watch Emma3, the more I like it. ... And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch. I must now agree with this conclusion, to my complete surprise. Indeed, the more I see this the more I like, I can now watch KB without squinting. The Irish musical theme, second dance to the ball his imprinted in my mind, a little tune I kind of unknowingly sing from time to time.

~JohanneD Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (15:23) #10

Here's what I found on Webwatch : The last TV adaptation of Austen�s work, Pride & Prejudice, was an amazing success. Emma has been written and produced by the same team. Fans of Pride and Prejudice set up the P&P Bulletin Board - "a discussion and support group for hopeless addicts to the 1995 adaptation of Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice". They�ll probably do the same for Emma. http://www.meridian.tv.co.uk/webwatch/webw005.html

~JohanneD Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (15:32) #11

one from ukonline : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/Members/hugh.c/contents.htm

~Susan Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (16:51) #12

Thanks for all the wonderful pics. I despair of finding a really good one of Mark Strong as Mr. Knightley, but am by no means giving up. For now, how about this one: I just watched Emma3 again, and am happy to say I agree with those of you liking it better and better with each viewing. Indeed, I am hard pressed to find anything at all to be unhappy about. Even the parts that weren't in the book are growing on me. More observations: Mark Strong is most handsome to me (1) in the scene where he is holding his niece Emma, and he and Emma "make up" after their disagreement over Harriet's refusing Mr. Martin; and (2) in the scene where he and Emma are telling Mr. Woodhouse that Mr. Knightley will come to live at Hartfield. I think his handsomeness probably has something to do with the way he is looking at her -- *sigh*. I think his eyes look most large, luminous, and expressive in the scene where Emma is looking at Frank's picture and telling Mr. Knightley that Frank "may be unable to do what he truly wishes" and he responds, "There is one thing a man can always do if he chooses, and that is his duty. If he truly wished it, he could be here tomorrow." All through these words, you could drown in those eyes! I think Frank Churchill is absolutely perfect. Although Raymond Coulthard plays him as somewhat of a snake, whatever we know or don't know about FC's character, no really scrupled individual could have taken such glee in pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and in treating Jane Fairfax so poorly in the process, particularly at Box Hill. RC reminds me of a circling shark, with that wide mouthful of shining teeth. I also love the character who played John Knightley (who is he, BTW?). His grumbling speech about having to go out on Christmas Eve causes me to laugh out loud. And when the carriage stops to pick up Mr. Elton, didn't that gentlemen's bowing and scraping behavior bring to mind Mr. Collins? And last but not least, speaking of Mr. Elton, I have always wondered why Emma did not share with anyone, particularly Mr. Knightley, his declarations and behavior in the carriage. At the ball, when Mr. Knightley asks Emma, "Why are they your enemies?", it seems like a perfect chance to at least tell him she'll fill him in later. I understand that decorum would dictate less than full disclosure, but no mention at all? It doesn't make sense to me. (Forgive me if this is covered in the book, and ust tell me to shut up. I haven't read the whole thing for some time now, so I may have just forgotten.)

~elder Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (17:25) #13

Susan -- there are several marvelous pics of Mark Strong in The Making of Emma, but I do not possess a scanner. Another scene where his eyes are beautiful and large is the "Badly done, Emma, badly done indeed" bit after Box Hill. Telling Mr Woodhouse about the engagement -- yes, he does look lovestruck (and more than a little lustful) there, does he not. As to Emma telling anyone about Mr Elton's proposal -- I believe Harriet was the only one informed. Some of the locals suspected he was trying for Emma, however, as Miss Bates lets slip (when Mr Elton's real engagement is announced). The Knightley brothers seem to have suspected it (John, at least, tried to warn Emma not to be so friendly/encouraging).

~candace Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (18:27) #14

I am also one who loved this adaption (from the first viewing BTW). I do however have a couple of questions: 1.) "She is someone's natural daughter" Was this a nice way of saying that her mother and father were not married or maybe that she indeed had parents and was not an orphan? 2.) Has anyone purchased a copy yet? Is there missing scenes?

~Serena Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (18:53) #15

Susan, I think the reason Emma does not bring up Elton's proposal to Knightley is her embarassment that she had planned a match between Elton and Harriet and tried many times over to 'promote' it and Mr Knightley suspected it. If you recall, at the beginning when Emma says she will match Mr Elton in Knightley's presence. Later when Harriet rejects Mr Martin, Mr Knightley in his anger tells Emma that if Elton was the man intended on for Harriet, that Elton may talk sentimentally but act rationally..he knows the value of a good income.. Since Emma always thought she herself was in control of events around her and her circle, the confession would have shaken her grounds, (ahem..ie. I only think so....

~bernhard Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (18:57) #16

Stop me if you've heard this one before - the strawberry party "Perhaps not" the brown, brown, brown thing. I like the playful almost-looks he gives to Emma to recognize that he sees her making faces at Mrs. Elton. The color thing works on the BoxHill trip, too. I really like the loss of his voice on the "indeed". You can sure tell he's torn up! (He looks a little like Paul Glaser -"Starsky and Hutch"- to me as he delivers that last line. ? Go figure!) Due to all the recent talk about receding/baldness my last couple viewings have concentrated on whether I'd like his looks so much after knowing this. (I am so shallow!) Heck, keep the hat on & we're fine! I'm thinking it's fine, anyway!

~Inko Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (19:40) #17

Candace: Someone's natural daughter, I think, means she was born out of wedlock and may or may not know who her father was. "Natural" in this case doesn't mean she was orphaned (or it could if her mother died in childbirth) but that she had no known father. I bought a tape of Emma3 yesterday and watched it last night. No extra scenes. The whole is only about 100 minutes long in all. But, guess what I found at the beginning? A little of either "The making of P&P" or "Behind the Scenes of P&P". It was a long ad for the P&P tapes with shots of the filming, a few words from Susie Conklin and Jennifer Ehle saying "It's such a romantic story" - but nothing from CF except some shots of him being filmed. My only complaint with that tape is that the sound is cracked up - especially where the music is played. I'm going to try and return it for a better copy, but I'm not sure they'll take it back. I don't think it's my VCR because everything else I play is fine.

~elder Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (20:48) #18

The costume designer (Jenny Beavan) also did S&S2. She decided that the Highbury fashions would be more provincial, less French-inspired. (Her budget was about 1/4 what she had in S&S2.) She worked on the colors, at least for the women. For the men she tried to distinguish between the older and younger generations (Mr Woodhouse & Mr Perry both wear wigs), as well the contrast between Mr Knightley (practical, single color scheme) and Frank Churchill (more fashionable, especially the color contrast between the jacket and breeches). From a previous comment: The actor Guy Henry plays John Knightley. On British tv he has appreared in Stay Lucky, Spywatch, Rumpole of the Bailey, The Two of Us, and Family Ties.

~Serena Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (07:06) #19

Candace, if you mean significant scenes - I think one major one was the riddles Harriet was collecting for her book and Mr Elton drops a bomb of a riddle off at Emma's place..which added to the misunderstanding of Emma's - That was totally overlooked and I think would have added more force to Elton's proposal to Emma..and of course Emma's subsequent humilitation in facing Harriet. Emma was let off a little too easy at the end with Harriet's infatuation of Knightley being replaced by Mr Martin's proposal. But on the whole, it was faithful to the book, except for minor details: if Emma had been seen visiting the poor and if Knightley had informed Emma of Elton's marriage. The final celebration scene was not in the book at all - but that grows on you.

~janea Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (10:45) #20

I�m sorry, but I�m not that fond of Emma 3. When I saw it the first time, it was a huge disappointment. Too much from the book is left out. And I don�t think that Emma develope and grow as she does in the novel. Perhaps it�s just that the adaptation is too short. Imagine P&P2 if it was just 2,5 hours - it wouldn�t be the same. And I think that Emma 3 would have been much better if it had the same size as P&P2.

~Mari Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (13:02) #21

Candace; "She is someone's natural daughter" Was this a nice way of saying that her mother and father were not married or maybe that she indeed had parents and was not an orphan? She is undoubtedly illegitimate. As in S&S, when Col. Brandon placed Beth in the care of a family in the country, she was placed with someone to be raised. The father, or the family of the mother, would have been responsible for finding someone to raise her, and paying the expenses. It is very likely that she will never know the actual identities of her biological parents. This might seem cruel, but was considered a very generous situation, rather than being sent to one of the 'wonderful' charity insti utions of the time. The family of one or both of these parents would have to be rather well off to assume this kind of a financial burden.

~bplaroch Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (17:52) #22

In Emma3 when Emma accepts Mr. Knightley's proposal he says, "I held you in my arms when you were three weeks old". I can't remember if it was here or on the Austen-L that someone commented that that was a very un-loverlike thing to say, but I disagree. I think it was like an outburst of feeling and emotion with the underlying meaning, "and I thought I would never be able to hold you in my arms again--but I shall!" I think that's romantic in a way!

~elder Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (18:33) #23

Barbara (#22) -- I agree with you. I have watched this scene many times, and I think Mr Knightley is just so stunned that he can't think of much to say. Emma is his dearest Emma, the Emma he has loved so long. She has just told him she has always loved him as well, and that she'll marry him. He is practically speechless. He is not a "romantic" man in the sense of being able to sweet talk a woman. (I do not suppose he has had much "dating" experience at all, in fact.) His words throughout the proposal scene (both from the novel and additional) show him as he is, a plain spoken man with incredibly deep feelings. The look on Strong's face and the sound in his voice when he says, "You do consent, then?" are very moving. And the slow build up to the kiss is also nice ; very romantic. *sigh*

~Serena Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (18:51) #24

Jane, I use to think that too that perhaps Kate B. could have warmed up more as Emma if the production was longer.. but many viewings later ..In 100 mins a lot can be accomplished if the scenes permitted. I'm not defending Emma3 (definitely not defacting from the Emma2 camp) but though most of the major scenes were represented, I felt the dialogues which would have endeared Emma to us was missing. eg. in the scene where Emma tells Knightley that Frank is the epitomy of manhood.. a little more bantering between the pair would have done wonders for Kate & Mark Strong. The scene where Knightley says.. anyone may know how highly I regard 'Jane' was left off too abruptly and Emma's 'sorrow' for Harriet time -over was let off to lightly and hence her character wasn't given enough depth. Even Emma's subsequent discovery that she 'loved him' was too subdued.. But this production does grow on you.. especially since there's no other to visually compare with .. till mid April. & Emma 2.. Barbara,.that sentence of Knightley's was romantic wasn't it ? ..he looked like a little puppy with his innocent gaze and .. him bounding down the stairs to look for Emma.. coming as he was, one cannot help feel sorry for him - cos he really looked like he had no chance in suceeding, ever, with his Emma. I thought a second opinion was necessary, so got hubby to watch it for the first time last night and his comment - This is nothing to P&P1, an uptight man and a bitchy woman.. I'm sure they marry at the end.. Jane Austen.. .I do apologise.

~kendall Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (20:44) #25

Mr. Knightley's proposal he says, "I held you in my arms when you were three weeks old". I agree - it was very lover-like during the proposal. The line in the book, "I have been in love with you since you were thirteen at least" might not have sounded quite right in these days when we are all so aware of and concerned about child sexual abuse.

~elder Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (21:06) #26

I liked Emma's response, too, which showed her getting back into a playful mode with Mr Knightley. It seemed very real, what real people might say to each other, I mean. I really enjoy this scene. [Serena, yes, he does have a puppy dog look -- with those wonderful big eyes! But he is not a puppy, in Mrs Elton's words.]

~bernhard Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (21:27) #27

No Knighley is not, but isn't Mr. Elton a puppy, though!!! I love how she goes on about how she's a scourge on puppies. And what says Mr. E? "Yes, Augusta." I do really like John here as well. I can't remember him from Emma2, but I do recall my impression from the read was he was certainly a fussy, unpleasant sort. The way he comes off here, though, strikes me as he's griping because he's expected to do so, and that the others are actually rather amused and entertained by the way he goes on. Well, at the very least, I am.

~bernhard Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (21:38) #28

re: "in my arms when 3 wks. old" comment I have tried to understand the criticism of this. No, it's not a lover's typical passionate comment, but I think it reflects his love for Emma. He has seen her grow; he has come to love her as she has grown through all those years. He has a deeply developed regard for her - not like Darcy's passionate feelings for Lizzy, but very tender, very true, very deep love. I agree that I don't picture Mr. Knightley's having had oodles of experience - he's been at Hartfield, for _____ sakes! When would he have had time? Maybe this is why I picture Mark Strong in this role more than that gorgeous hunk of Jeremy. I can't imagine that HE wouldn't have been pursued avidly by we-know-whom (make a list, or insert your own name here) as well as plenty of his avid contemporariees. MS' attraction isn't as a wildly goodlooking specimen, but very nice in his own way.

~bernhard Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (21:47) #29

and you all know which scene I'm thinking on Susan, Johanne, Glory and fame to she who gets me a pic and, speaking of the strawberry party - I LOOOVE the "are you fond of sheep?" LOL!

~bernhard Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (22:45) #30

Another bit which I have become excessively fond of (of which I have become... I know) is the walk up BoxHill, after the blunder. Miss Bates is on Mr. Knightley's arm relating some story of an excursion she took in the past. Without her talking letting up, continuing the story, she's shown talking to Mr. Weston - Mr. Knightley's now under the tree. I believe there is even one more person shown listening to her before our attention is drawn away from her story. It's great!

~Susan Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (23:01) #31

I am really enjoying all this discussion, and agree with most of it, but Mr. Knightley as inexperienced? My mind recoils!!! He may live in Highbury, but he goes to London frequently... I think he's honest and not a flatterer, but innocent? Not my Knightley!

~cassandra Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (00:22) #32

OOH Cindy! That "gorgeous hunk of Jeremy..." Get thee to the Northam drool topic! And I shouldn't really divulge this, but future installments of Emma: Deju-vu will deal with Mr Knightley's romantic past-before Emma.

~Susan Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (00:29) #33

Cassandra, don't make us wait long!

~Kali Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (02:29) #34

BTW, John Knightley is played by Guy Henry...and a wonderful John he was too! I've always liked John...such a crab...I watched my brand new copy of Emma3 from A&E TWICE last night, and the guy had me busting both guts...To Mr. Elton: "Get yourself in, Man, the door shut, and the less said the better!" A better treatment of John than Emma2, but they still didn't go far enough with it...where was his insight on Mr. Elton's intentions? Also, did you guys notice that Raymond Coulthard, who played Frank, looked amazingly like the man who played his father, Jimmy Hazeldine...the same smile, the same wavy hair...it all just looked cheesier on Frank... PS - Cass and I and some others have contributed to a page devoted to the Emma adaptations...it's still under construction, but if you want to take a look and make suggestions (or contribute your own content), it's at http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/emma.html

~Amy Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (02:36) #35

Very nicely done, Kali. You have great taste, baby.

~Kali Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (03:07) #36

Thanks, Aim...you taught me everything I know. ;)

~elder Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (04:59) #37

Susan: . . but innocent? Not my Knightley! I did not mean that Mr Knightley is innocent, but I do believe that he is inexperienced romantically. I do not think he has been really in love except with Emma, and I suspect that he did not meet and "date" many women, either. One of the very attractive qualities about Mr Knightley is that he behaves to women the same way that he behaves to men. He seems to treat everyone with the respect and consideration that a gentleman should display. He lectures Emma, out of love, and he cuts Mr Elton after the latter snubs Harriet, but he tolerates Mrs Elton even when she is insufferable!

~Carolineevans Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (07:32) #38

One of my favourite scenes is the first one of Knightly and Emma together,where quite unconsciously, She uses body language to tease him when she talks about being troublesome, and he has to quickly look to his glass of wine, or whatever. She obviously has no idea of what she is doing, but he does feel the effect. I think it perfectly sums up their relationship at this point!

~kimmer Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (08:20) #39

I agree with Susan, Kathleen, and Cindy. I really love this version of Emma. I was not too thrilled with Mark Srong the first time I saw it. However, after buying the video and watching it again, I find Mark Strong to be a very attractive man. He is perfect as Knightly. I too enjoyed the look between Emma and Knightly about being alone at night. Add me to the fan club for this adaptation!

~Susan Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (09:38) #40

Ditto to all of the above. Kathleen, I do see what you mean and it's one of the things I love most about Knightley. I was also referring to other comments in my response.

~elder Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (14:24) #41

Caroline (resp #38): One of my favourite scenes is the first one of Knightly and Emma together . . . She uses body language to tease him when she talks about being troublesome, and he has to quickly look to his glass of wine, or whatever. She obviously has no idea of what she is doing, but he does feel the effect. I did not notice this; I shall have to go back to the beginning (if my tape will rewind that far) to check it out. I must admit that I have been concentrating on the ball, Box Hill, the proposal, and telling Mr Woodhouse about the engagement. [Note to Susan: See, you did not have to come after us; we have kept the discussion going! ;-)]

~ValGal17 Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (16:37) #42

I have to say that I am very disappointed with Emma3. I have read the book, and seen one other version of it, the one with Gwyneth Paltrow. I think that the one with G.P. was a lot better. As a rule the book is always better than the movie, and I found no exception in either of these cases. That is one of the reasons that I love P&P2 so much. Not only was it an incredibly great movie, but it also stayed very true to the novel. I do not believe that any movie with a length of only 2.5 hours would be ble to adequatly cover any of JA's novels, that was another great thing about P&P2 - they did not try to cram it all in. It irritates me when playwrites believe that they can make a better story of it than the original autor, and end up changing the plot in the process. The Gwyneth Paltrow version (I will call it thus since I don't remember who produced it or directed it) anyways I believe that that version portrayed the unfolding of the plot much better than Emma3. They showed the development of Emma's character, and, I believe, portrayed all of the characters to more of Jane Austen's liking than Emma3. Emma3's plot did not flow at all. Things happened without giving some reason for them. There was no build up of Mr. Elton's proposal, or Mr. Knightly's love. The o ly superiority that the latter holds is the character of Mr. Woodhouse. Emma3 clearly holds with all of JA's ideas about this humorous man, as the GP version never even attempted to do. The last scene of Emma3 was very cute, but also irritated me. It's not that I do not like the idea of Emma staying good friends with Harriet after they were both married, but Jane Austen clearly stated that they would not be able to have the same aquaintace as before. This might be wrong, but that was the way society functioned then. Jane Austen's literature should not be made into to works that represent a perfect world, but the world that she came from - whatever the flaws may have been. I feel some loyalty to Jane.

~Carolineevans Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (16:43) #43

Valerie, you are welcome to differ-and what you say about the plot-changing makes sense to me. I will only say that it might, just might, grow on you!

~kimmer Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (16:51) #44

One of my favorite scenes occurs when Mr. Knightly finds out the reason Frank has gone to London. "To get his hair cut?" I love the way he says that. I was a little surprised, however, that he would mutter things about the foolish man under his breath with the father right there. Also, after Mr. Elton proposes and Emma tells him she is not interested, he makes a sound like "hymph". What is that second sound he makes? It sounds like there is something stuck in his throat. One last question...How old is Mark Strong?

~elder Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (17:17) #45

Kim: One last question...How old is Mark Strong? According to The Making of Emma, it would seem that Mr Strong is in his mid 30's. The book says, "Knightley is meant to be 16 years older than Emma. Given that Kate looks a young 21, it was decided to go for a Knightley closer to 35 than to 40." Haven't found anything more definite than that, but I will continue looking.

~Serena Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (18:33) #46

Valerie. sounds like you should come visit in Emma2 chat, ie. the one with GP in it. Though, Caroline's hindsight hold much truth for me, Mark Strong's subtlety as Mr Knightley grows steadily on you with each viewing.

~LynnMarie Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (19:52) #47

There is so much here I agree with!... Valerie, it really will grow on you. I thought almost the same as you when I first saw it, but after watching it three times, I really like it. I love the way MS says that second 'indeed' at box hill. He is so disappointed and hurt - remember, he thinks there is an understanding btwn Emma and Frank, and he thinks Frank has changed her to a less-nice person. I love the way he holds Emmas' hand the next day, and looks at it, almost as if he thinks it will be for the last time. I like the anagran scene too - it was well done, all the undercurrents are apparent, and the way MS looks when Emma walks away from him - he is hurt, he thinks he's lost her. Susan, I agree with you about John Knightly - I think he's hilarious. I'm glad they did something with him in this version. I have tomorrow off---perhaps I'll have to watch it again while I sew!!!!! I glad there are others here on whom it grew, like me. And I'm glad to know there are no extra scenes - I won't buy it know, as I recorded it without commercials.

~elder Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (20:33) #48

Lynn Lamy: I love the way he holds Emmas' hand the next day, and looks at it, almost as if he thinks it will be for the last time. I agree, that look was heart-breaking. He wants her to know that he knows why she went to visit Miss Bates. Then he takes her hand, and he almost can't let go of it, he caresses it as if he will never be able to be this close to her again. A funny note: I noticed during the Box Hill scene that Mrs Elton was plagued with bees twice. I loved it. (It reminded me of the parrot snapping at Lucy Steele in S&S2.)

~Kali Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (21:36) #49

Caroline and Kathleen, did you notice the look she gives Mr. Knightley as and just after she says, "We always say what we like to one another"? It was almost come-hither - nice touch. Poor girl never realized what she was puttng the poor man through...!

~Serena Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (23:34) #50

Yes, Kali, that was the first thing I noticed even in my first 'I-don't want-to-like-it' viewing of Emma3. Her explosive body language in that playful, taunting way made him look so uncomfortable. There were great undercurrents, much more subtle than in Emma2, which is probably why this adapation grows on you and keeps us going back looking for these 'less obvious' signs of affection between them.

~Susan Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (23:41) #51

#41 Kathleen [Note to Susan: See, you did not have to come after us; we have kept the discussion going! ;-)] And I love you all for it! There's still so much more to discuss. #47 Lynn I love the way MS says that second 'indeed' at box hill. He is so disappointed and hurt - remember, he thinks there is an understanding btwn Emma and Frank, and he thinks Frank has changed her to a less-nice person. I really love the way you describe this scene -- my feelings exactly about what Knightley is feeling. Did anyone else think that the actor portraying Mr. Woodhouse was just a tad hammy in some of the scenes? Two in particular for me were (1) when Emma wants him to play backgammon and he jumps rather affectedly when Knightley shows up, and (2) when John announces the snow at Randalls and Mr. W cowers between his daughters, saying "Whatever shall we do?" I've always thought this character absolutely hilarious, but felt this actor made him appear too silly for words at times. Comments?

~Serena Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (00:28) #52

On the whole, I loved the way Mr Woodhouse was seen, thought the character excellently played and very much in essence with the book. The scene at Randalls, was quite similar to the novel, he looked to Emma for comfort and Isabella, being just like him, was unable to 'sooth' him. In the backgammon scene, he did sound a little annoyed at having a late visitor: but could that be to show up how comfortable Knightley was at hartfield that he could show up long past the proper calling hour. Perhaps so?? John Knightley was simply superb.. he had me in stitches.

~janea Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (04:07) #53

Valerie, I agree with you so much. I just couldn�t express it as well as you do. I think it was a mistake to make Emma3 just 2,5 hours. The poor girl has no chance to grow and to mature in that time. Imagine what it would have been like if it was 5 hours. But of course I�m not all negative. There are lot of things that I really like. Perhaps I just expected too much after P&P 2. One scene that I like is at the ball where Mr Knightley is saving poor Harriet after Mr Elton�s bad behaviour. There is one small detail that I like so much. When Mr Knightley stands up with Harriet, there is not much left of the dance, it�s almost finished. I�m not sure that I can explain this in English, but I think that it makes him even more goodhearted. It shows how important the gesture is to him. I like that very much.

~elder Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (06:14) #54

Jane: One scene that I like is at the ball where Mr Knightley is saving poor Harriet after Mr Elton�s bad behaviour. . . . When Mr Knightley stands up with Harriet, there is not much left of the dance, it�s almost finished. . . . I think that it makes him even more goodhearted. It shows how important the gesture is to him. I agree. And the fact that he lets Mr Elton know how rude Elton was without actually being rude to Elton himself -- perfect. [I just wish someone could have slapped the Eltons a couple of times. (Smack, smack!)]

~kimmer Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (08:22) #55

Just an observation. In the ball scene during the first dance, Emma has stopped to wait for another couple to take a turn. She looks over at Mr. Knightly and gives him a little smile. He turns away and she frowns. However, just a moment later Mr. Knightly is standing next to Jane Fairfax smiling at the dancers. Did I miss something? I enjoy Mr. Knightly's "very spritly" when Miss Bates asks him about Frank Churchill at the dance. Susan, please keep your Emma/Knightly stories coming. Wonderful!

~Kali Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (15:38) #56

Did you guys notice that as they pan away from the final shot at the crown, Frank is dancing with a young woman who appears to be Harriet. A nice touch which I hadn't noticed until yesterday...it shows that Frank, despite his dubious double-dealing and selfishness re: the engagement, really is a decent person. I like that.

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