Col.Fitzwilliam in love with Lizzy?

I have mused at why Lizzy didn't fall for him more: very pleasing manners, very good conversation, good looking, Lizzy's prior preference for a certain officer, his attentions, ...

An alliance between Col. Fitzwilliam and Lizzie is something in which the Tenant book would be quite inaccurate to the times in proposing. As a younger son of a titled family, the Col. could not consider marrying a woman who did not have a fortune of her own, and Lizzie would have been well aware of this. A light flirtation is all that was ever likely to come out of their acquaintance.

If I recall correctly, Emma Tennant suggested more than mere flirtation between Lizzy and Fitzwilliam. Personally , it was an appalling book to read. I thought Fitzwilliam was interested in her, being a pretty face and sharing lively conversation with. But much later in the visit, he commented on his habits of expense that made it impossible for him to marry as he chose. Perhaps he too had a story to tell.. of overcoming attraction to Lizzy and realising (being a more respectable and sensible man than Wickham) that it was impossible not to marry into wealth - and admitted it to Lizzy in their stroll (he wanted to let her know.. if his case had been ifferent - she might have been his heart's desire to). I cannot tell on Elizabeth's part - perhaps Fitzwilliam was nothing out of the ordinary gentleman type person - no additional attraction like in Darcy.

I always got the impression (from the book) that Fitzwilliam was quite attracted to E, and that if things had been different he might have proposed to her (ie if she had had money). There's a brief conversation between them when he is talking about the trials of being a younger son and of not being able to marry where he chooses. E asks herself "Is this meant for me?" and blushes. So I think that she at least thought the Colonel liked her and was trying in the gentlest possible way to explain why he couldn't do anything about it.

I agree with you, Kate. I think Fitzwilliam would have pursued his interest if either party had had wealth. As it was though, I think that both he and Lizzie had the silent understanding, even before he says his piece, that any union between them would be impossible.

But don't you think that maybe secretly he knew about his cousin's feelings for Lizzy? The reason I bring this up is because at the piano when Lizzy says to Col. that Darcy will have him hate her (I don't have the book in front of me) and Darcy retaliates by letting her know that she does not intimidate him. Right there I got the feeling that Col knew something was up with his cousin. Now I could be wrong, but MHO.

He must have known. Darcy's strange behavior on that first visit to Hunsford; his obvious admiration during the piano scene. Poor Fitzwilliam couldn't have been totally dense!

OK here's some more fairly obvious clues from the book. At the first dinner at Rosings (Ch31) Col F was really glad to see them (ie theHunsford crowd) "Mrs Collins's pretty friend had moreover caught his fancy very much" Later, re his regular visits to Hunsford, Lizzy notes his "evident admiration of her" which reminds her of Wickham. Also, Charlotte sometimes imagine Lizzy marrying him. Yeah, and I am prepared to admit he might have had some inkling of Darcy's situation - especially because D keeps putting off their departure.

Found P&P and read thru chpt 33 again. I tried to, but cannot get the impression that F. had that inkling of D's situation. It sounded rather more like F was himself so caught up with his own 'handicap' that he didn't realise D's interest in the same person. Lady Catherine was obviously amazed at how much attention Lizzy was getting from both F & D.

I agree with Laura...I think he must have seen the looks that Darcy and Lizzy gave each other and the bantering back and forth had to have given him a clue of the tension between them. He may have felt some similar feelings but I believe he would have backed off if he even had an inkling that Darcy was interested in Lizzy....or even if he might now approve of Lizzy....Darcy was a strong and forceful man and in he himself said that he tried to stay away from ridicule from others....I would imagine his fri nds and close family would have respected him and held his opinion in high esteem. He seemed to be the one they all looked to (example is Bingley wanting his blessing in his relationship with Jane) for approval. I believe that Col. Fitzwilliam would want the same from Darcy.

[But don't you think that maybe secretly he knew about his cousin's feelings for Lizzy?] He must have known. Darcy's strange behavior on that first visit to Hunsford; his obvious admiration during the piano scene. Poor Fitzwilliam couldn't have been totally dense! Ditto! Or, perhaps he could not help but think that Elizabeth showed no particular partiality toward Darcy. And she may have even seemed friendlier to Fitzwilleam since she just had more to say to him than she did Darcy. ('I like her and I think she likes me, but he likes her....}

The way that the piano scene is played in P&P2 -- Lizzie definitely seems to be flirting with Darcy, though she might not even realize it. Surely Fitzwilliam would pick up that there is SOMETHING between these two!

Lets totally ignore the mini series and go by what Austen wrote, I still feel that Col Fitzwilliam knew of Darcy's great admiration for this young woman. They way he tells Lizzy how he has heard a great deal about her. When she says it must have been all bad he says no indeed. He knew exactly why Darcy would be talking up a storm of Lizzy.

The Colonel is clearly NOT in love with Miss Bennett at all. You simply have a pleasant sort of attraction, not serious. Not even to the level of flirting. Just good drawing-room and park banter. Col Fitzwilliam is merely better at good conversation than Darcy. He's no fool and like most men is probably sensible to some kind of attraction between is friend Darcy and Elizabeth, and would not want to interfere in any sense. Darcy has NOT explicitly revealed his feelings about Elizabeth to FItzwilliam! Of course there is the second, but major consideration of money. The Colonel merely esteems her, likes her. He cannot consider any serious relationship with Miss Bennett.

No but he does fancy her. But he knows of the attraction between Darcy and Lizzy. He is not a nikumpoop(sp). Lizzy is described as being very quick and lively. Of course, Fitzwilliam's countenance is much nicer than Darcy. In any situation, Fitzwilliam feels comfortable, Darcy does not.

Laura -- In the book, as I recall, Fitzwilliam does not tell Elizabeth that he has heard a great deal about her, or even that Darcy has mentioned her. We cannot be certain that she was ever discussed by the two cousins, before, during or after the Rosings visit. I agree that he may suspect that Darcy is attracted to Elizabeth, however, and he may figure out more on their return trip (back to London?).

These last few postings had me diving for the novel again.. yes, Fitwilliam does not mention having heard about her from Darcy. Though, I think Darcy said (when in Pemberly) to Lizzy, that his sister had heard much of her. The bantering between Darcy and Lizzy at the pianoforte sounded more like a pair of acquaintances (that didn't get along) power-playing in idle conversation. "You mean to frighten me, Mr Darcy.. though your sister does play so well.." "..you could not really believe me to entertain any design of alarming you..you find great enjoyment in ocassionally professing opinions which in fact are not your own." "It is very ungenerous in you to mention all that you know to my disadvantage.." It ends with Darcy 'giving-in' to her with a praise at her music. This must have amused Fitzwilliam, but he would have known Darcy, with all his wealth and connection, would & could not fall for her. Afterall, Darcy had prevented Bingley from such a similar connection and Fitzwilliam knew of that. So I don't think Fitzwilliam suspected Darcy's attraction. He might have thought about her for himself only as good, lively conversation, since he too knew the value of a good income.

Serena, I think that's a goold point about the wealth thing. Although don't forget that in Bingley's case there were objections against Jane's family. F doens't know that Lizzy is from the same family, doesn't know how bad her relatives are. While he knows HE has to maney for money, he knows that Darcy, is, in a sense, freed by his wealth to marry where he likes, and "He likes to have his own way very well" according to F. So I'm not so sure that F would have thought the Darcy would refuse to consider Lizzy.

Going straight by the book, we know that Fitzwilliam explicitly gives Lizzie a big hint that he CAN'T marry her; that Darcy keeps postponing their departure from Rosings; that there is some bantering between Darcy & Lizzie at the piano in Fitzwilliam's presence. Had Fitzwilliam ever seen Darcy so lively before in conversation with a young woman? I still maintain he would have been a complete idiot if he hadn't picked up that there was SOMETHING between these two!

If you don't mind me adding, that my overall impression was that the Col was attracted to Lizzie. He was probably bemoaning his fate as a 2nd son, and said too much, belying his attraction. In general, I find most men unaware of unspoken feelings. Do you think they were more sensative almost two centuries ago?!!:-) (ha, ha)

Noted Kate, but Fitzwilliam must be aware that Lizzy cannot be from an 'acceptable' enough family for Darcy; she lives with the parish family as a friend of his wife and cousin of Mr Collins. Can I assume that Col. Fitzwilliam would have known about the family's desire of Darcy and Anne's 'engagement'? His comment to Lizzy (during their piano chat)that he would like to know how Darcy acts in public perhaps showed that he saw no difference in Darcy's behaviour at Rosings that night with any other night wh n he was amongst relations. Personally I'm inclined to agree with Yeago resp#20 that Fitwilliam was thinking of his attraction to Lizzy. I like this topic very much, there;s so much to speculate on .. thank you for introducing it Jessica.

what about Fitzwilliam's comment the first time meeting Lizzy that Darcy is lively enough in other places? can't remember if that was a P&P2ism or in the book, but the Col. is obviously meant to be aware that Darcy finds Rosings generally stifling. His not knowing how Darcy behaved among strangers isn't too surprising, though, since he (Darcy) doesn't tend to go out with masses of his non-acquaintances. I have no idea what my point is

Wouldn't Col Fitzwilliam have thought it strange to have Darcy want him to go and confirm all he had told Lizzy in the letter after the first proposal? Why would Darcy care what Lizzy thought? There has to be something there between them. The book does not say whey Mr. Darcy and the Col. were waiting for her at Rosings....but the Col. stays for at least an hour waiting....either Darcy had asked him to wait or he wanted to wait...why?

I always thought that Col F. waited at Hunsford for Lizzy because he wanted to say goodby to her personally. Although I see the possibility that Darcy might have asked him to see her, that seems awfully awkward. Hard to say for certain.

Cindy, I think you just supported the point that Col Fitzwilliam was not aware that Darcy was interested in Lizzy since he appeared more lively that one night at Rosings. (when Lizzy played) BUT unfortunately, that was not in the book (unless I missed it) Col Fitzwilliam verifying the truths in the letter - I think that was meant as a reassurance to Lizzy in case she doubted Darcy's sincerity. I agree with Kathleen here, I doubt if Dacry had told Col. Fitwilliam to wait around at Hunsford parsonage to reaffirm it. Fitz. just wanted to see her before he left - afterall, the last thing he heard about Lizzy was that she was indisposed to dine at Rosings. It could have a gesture of good breeding to see her for the last time, seeing how he had 'charmed' her th oughout his visit.

]he appeared more lively that one night at Rosings In Darcy's story, Aylmer has F comment to D that he appeared more animated than usual at the Rosings dinner. But as I said on the DS Oops thread, this may be misleading, becuase in P&P, Austen has Charlotte, at the end of Ch32, noticing that Fitzwilliam laughs at Darcy for being "stupid" (meaning silent), suggesting this was unlike his normal demeanour. Aylmer has F and D discussElizabeth, with F slying suggesting that Darcy might be interested, Darcy implying that F is interested, and F admitting that money made her unavailable to him, but not to Darcy.

Since Darcy specifically told Lizzy that she could apply to Col. Fitz for the truth of the facts related in his letter, and he knew that the Col. was, like him, planning to leave later that day, he must have asked his cousin to stick around for a while in case Lizzy wanted to question him. It must have been awkward, though, for him to make this request of the Col.--what reason would he give? But he could hardly expect Lizzy to apply to Fitz by letter.

I love the way the word "stupid" was used then. Like at the Meryton assembly.

I'm still not sure Darcy would have said anything to Fitzwilliam about it. It seems to me that he didn't really think that E would feel comfortable discussing such private and embarrassing matters with F. I think he put it in the letter to give him a bit more truth and power to what he was saying. ie " I want you to know I'm not making this up. F knows all about it" But I think he really believes she won't ask F, that the power of his own words ( and her embarrassment) would be enough. I don't think e would have gone through the embarrassment of discussing it with F on the very small chance that Lizzy would be brazen enough to bring it up with him. I think he knows she is too well-bred for that.

Kate, I agree with you. I don't think Darcy actually mentioned anything to Col. F. about the contents of the letter -- he was just using the Colonel's name as another authority. It seems to me that Darcy's being "stupid" at Rosings and Hunsford shows that HE'S ACTING DIFFERENTLY AROUND LIZZIE, which is itself a little hint to Fitzwilliam, yes? I have to ask again: _When_ has Fitzwilliam seen Darcy so lively around a young woman, as D. is during the piano scene? Whenever Darcy is around Lizzy at Rosin s, he's either thrown into silence, or makes an attempt to be lively to match her. Since this isn't his usual behavior there, wouldn't F. know that something's up?

Yes, Amy, I think he would.

Wait an hour at Rosings just to say goodbye because of good breeding? I don't think so. That is a long time to be in the company of Mr. Collins just to say goodbye to someone because of manners...especially since Darcy left and he stayed.

What a fun little topic! Personally I think Col. F. liked Elizabeth and was definitely attracted to her. Now he should have been aware that Darcy was not acting himself but as someone else posted, I think Col F. was too caught up in this infatuation to notice. We have to be careful in trying to separate the novel from the adaptation. In the novel, Col F. was about thirty, not handsome, but in person and address most truly the gentleman. Also in their initial meeting, Lizzy and Col. F. do not have the conversation in the novel which they do in P&P2. However, Col F. makes an interesting comment during the Rosing's banter which was not in P&P2. When Lizzy asks him why Darcy is ill qualified to recommend himself to strangers, Col F. says "I c n answer your question without applying to him. It is because he will not give himself the trouble." NOw clearly Darcy is putting himself to the trouble of speaking to Elizabeth at that time. Regarding Col F. hanging around Hunsford, he wanted to bid Elizabeth goodbye for himself. He's saying good bye to his pretty bantering partner. I don't think Darcy said a word about the Georgiana affair. Bottom line, he may have noticed Darcy's altered behavior but Lizzy wasn't responding to Darcy; Lizzy was responding to him and he was enjoying it.

I think Col. Fitzwilliam was trying to help his cousin and friend. His cousin had spoken of Lizzy, so he knew that his cousin had an attachment. I think he was trying to check out to see if she would be an appropriate person (she passed the test I think). I think he was really just trying to help, and have some fun conversation at a place that was dreadfully boring.

I don't believe this was in the book either, but wouldn't Col F. have noticed Darcy's great agitation when he returned to Rosings the infamous night of the proposal? Surely he could detect his agitation of mind, and guess the source?

In response to Amy2 : "When has Fitzwilliam seen Darcy so lively around a young woman, as D. is during the piano scene? Whenever Darcy is around Lizzy at Rosings, he's either thrown into silence, or makes an attempt to be lively to match her. Since this isn't his usual behavior there, wouldn't F. know that something's up?" End of Chpt 32 :"Why Mr Darcy came so often and not speak.Mrs Collins knew not what to make of him. Col Fitz's occassionally laughing at his stupidity, proved that he was generally different, (ie. generally lively) which her (Mrs Collins) knowledge of him could not have told her.. The silence bit is perhaps a puzzle to Fitzwilliam. I still cannot find anything in the novel to indicate that Fitzwilliam was aware of Darcy's regard for Lizzy. He seems 'above' such suspicions being too preoccupied with her.

I agree with Amy. Col F knows his cousin's behaviour and must have seen the differences Darcy exhibited when he was around Lizzie. He must have had an inkling that there was at least an attraction on Darcy's part or conscious of the fact that Lizzie was the first woman who stirred up this kind of reaction in Darcy. As for Col F being in love with Lizzie, I think he, like Darcy was attracted to her but soon realized that he couldn't let it develop into love because he was aware that he had to marry for mon y and not for love.

Col F knows his cousin's behaviour. Lisa, this has just crystallised something that has nagged me for a long time.Darcy and Fitzwilliam are cousins, Fitzwilliam has seen him in the company of his family, and has heard him boast of saving his friend Bingley from a most improper marriage. He is also Georgiana's guardian,and knows all about the Ramsgate affair.That doesn't mean that he knows or understands Darcy well.He has never struck me as being a particularly perceptive person, for all his pleasantness, and I cannot find anything in the bo k to to suggest that he did put 2and 2 together as regards Darcy and Lizzie.

That's exactly it Caroline, there's nothing in the book to indicate his 'awareness'. I went through those chapters so many times since this topic was raised and would have loved to have discovered a love-triangle. Even if Lizzy had checked-out the facts of the letter with Col. Fitz., the topics raised would not have indicated a marriage proposal had been made. Perhaps Col Fitz would have thought it to be merely Lizzy's clarification about Wickham's character, arising from her being newly acquainted with him. (Fitz being one of the executors of the late Darcy's will).

IMHO -- I believe that the Col. was indeed smitten with Lizzie, not in love, just simply smitten. In turn Lizzie was smitten with the Col. I had the opinion that his sole purpose is to show a contrast between himself and Darcy. The way in which the Col. so eloquently lets Lizzie know that there could never be anything between them so severly contrasts the way in which Darcy proposes. They each more or less say the same thing regarding her monetary means, but the Col. is all ease and politeness here as Darcy is insulting.

Smitten, hmmmmm, I'll give you smitten in the sense that he reacted to a lively attracted woman. I still maintain that he was astute enough to know his cousin was attracted to Lizzy (comments about hearing praise about her ). I may probably be picking this up from the adaptation, not the novel.

If Col. F. wasn't aware that _something_ was up between Darcy and Miss Bennet, that would mean he's a bit of a doofus. Wouldn't he at least be as perceptive as Charlotte, who likes to imagine that Darcy IS in love with her fr Maybe JA meant to give us a hint with her "laughing at his stupidity" line. I like to give the poor Colonel a little credit, I guess. . .

That should read "friend." Grrr. I HATE 28.8. Back to the T1 tomorrow!!

Candace, that's a fresh approach. Col Fitzwilliam presence as a contrast to Mr Darcy. I like it. Though Charlotte did suspect Darcy and though Fitz. did laugh at Darcy's 'stupidity' - I still cannot convince myself that he suspected anything between Darcy and Lizzy, doofus or not..

Didn't Charlotte say something to Lizzy about Mr Darcy's attentions at Lucas Lodge? Was that in the book? Unless Darcy said someting of his attraction to ColF, he probably wouldn't suspect anything serious. After all Lizzie is beneath Darcy (But would ColF know That, her staying at the rectory and all). I really think women are more perceptive than men in these matters. Esp back then, their sole goal was to get married, they had to keep an eye out!

I do believe that the Col had some interest in Lizzy, but not in love. But his ease of manner made Darcy jealous - we keep forgetting that Darcy is shy. He surrounds himself with outgoing people - Wickham, the Col. , Bingley - so he does not have to talk. When he meets Lizzy, it's the first time he tries to join in conversations. He is at a loss and tries to imitate his cousin. I also believe the Col was clueless about Darcy's feelings. Unlike Charlotte, he did not see what was going on because he did not know to how to look. Remember, Charlotte declared herself unromantic - marriage was a good business deal. She was Darcy had some interest in Lizzy and was hoping for a excellent match for her friend.

Yes, in the book Charlotte does mention her suspicions to Lizzie. But Lizzie just laughs it off, because she tells of Darcy's silences whenever they meet. Are we saying that women (Charlotte) are more perceptive than men (the Colonel) in picking up on the vibes of romance?

I don't know if it is all women, or rather Charlotte in particular, but isn't it interesting that someone who married for totally pragmatic reasons, who never thought to wait for or expect love, is the most perceptive about the symptoms of interest and love for her friend. She was on to Darcy's attentions, and judged their source rightly, from the time of the evening at Lucas Lodge "Mr. Darcy certainly looks at you a great deal, Lizzy." I think that she always believed that Darcy was attracted to Lizzy. She knew her friend well, and brought up the topic to see if her friend was yet aware of his attentions, and her own feelings. Her friend's negative response didn't convince her that there was no interest, just that her friend wasn't yet ready to own up to and/or discuss the matter. But like a good firend, she hung in there, and asked again later, in case Lizzy wanted or needed a sounding board.

If Charlotte could notice in one meeting that Darcy was looking at Lizzy a great deal...wouldn't the Col. have noticed something after being together several times? I think that he would have been intuitive...being that he is a single male in the company of young women. Even if the Col. knew that Lizzie's place in society was beneath his own...he could certainly flirt and notice the attentions of the ladies and other gentleman that were around him.

Didn't Col. Fitzwilliam strike anyone else as being quite oblivious to much happening around him, except for his own interest in Lizzy? And how she highly entertained him with her conversational ease? Perhaps Jane Asuten didn't intend for him to be dwelled on in such detail and (suggested above by someone) he was merely meant as a comparison to Darcy. Shoot me anyone??

IMO, the Col. must have something was up with Darcy. After all, Darcy had "brought" the Col. with him to Rosings, and after Mr. Collin's visit, the "gentlemen accompanied him" back to the parsonage. At which point, Charlotte makes her remark about Darcy "would have never come so soon to wait upon her". Wouldn't the Col. have been a bit suspicious about such a quick return visit? Surely it would have been Darcy who would have instigated the visit. After all, only Darcy knows anyone else at the parsonage, a d surely when the Col. meets Elizabeth, Charlotte, and Maria, I would give him the credit to know something was in the air with Darcy in regards to Elizabeth. After all, Mr. Collins is the head of the household at Hunsford, and very few people, esp. Darcy would be willing to put up with more hours of conversation with the man. Finally, why did Darcy go to Rosings and take the Col. with him in the first place?

Angela, Darcy's coldness at the first return visit to Hunsford might have thrown doubt to any suspicion, if any, which might have arisen from this visit. The next week passed without Mr Darcy visiting again, though Col. Fitz himself called at the parsonage during that week. Perhaps each cousin called without the other knowing of it, since Darcy was so smitten by Lizzy after the piano scene at Rosings, his personal visits only started then, when he realised (from Rosings) that Col Fitz was growing too 'com irtable' with his Lizzy. I don't know what I'm leading to..

Finally, why did Darcy go to Rosings and take the Col. with him in the first place? Darcy and Col. Fitizwilliam* (*is Lady C. brothers son) are Lady C. nephews and they visit her once a year and it happens to be the same time Lizzie would be at Hunsford.

Okay, time for my 2 cents. As someone who also doesn't perform easily for strangers, I fully agree that it's not at all unusual for Darcy to be drawn to more-lively people. Or rather, to some more-lively people. Caroline Bingley certainly seemed to enjoy her social life very much, but I can't say that Darcy was drawn to her. There are a number of extreme Es that I love to be around. Something about their manner helps to move me further down the scale, draws me out of my usual reserve, even to the point where it might be observed that I'm "lively enough" in their company. (About a year-and-a-half ago -- on my birthday, no less -- we lost a dear friend to his fight with cancer. He was such a person. I could easily be absolutely animated when he was around. Totally at ease. Very comfortable.) Even so, regardless of my level of familiarity and comfort, there are some situations which I can't say that I particularly enjoy. (Rosings?) A Vegas Night which my husband and I attended comes to mind. I appreciated the enjoyment of others, but eventually I had to get outside to listen to the crickets chirping. Eventually, the husband (who had been entirely enjoying himself) came round to see where I had gotten off to, realizing that it wouldn't take me terribly long to seek out a quieter corn r. (something like Extrovert-Overload?) I guess I'm arguing (yes, in a round-about way) that it wouldn't be a given that Col. Fitzwilliam would necessarily have thought beyond Darcy's actions to conclude he had affections for Lizzy. Just because he had noticed an alteration in Darcy's behavior, Col. Fitzwilliam may have been having too good a time himself to read anything into Darcy's reactions. Not that he's a doofus. Not that he's insensitive. Not that he's "typically male". oh, I got rather long-winded, didn't I sorry

that may have been more than 2 cents there'll be no charge

Thank you Cindy, I like you more and more..

Cindy, I know exactly what you mean about E overload. I've escaped more than one crowded room myself for such a cricket breather.

Vegas night? I'm there -- bring on the neon!! Getting back to poor Col F.: I guess our opinion on whether he knew something was up with Darcy and Lizzy depends upon the amount of credit we're willing to give him as a perceptive (or not) person. JA is pretty mum on this topic in the book, it seems. But as someone mentioned above, Charlotte, ostensibly the last person in the world to be keyed into Romance, picks up almost _immediately_ on Darcy's feelings for Lizzy. IS it possible that Col F. knows mo e than he reveals?

Cindy, I agree with you completely, including the Vegas night for I too do not perform easily to strangers. The first time I heard Darcy say that, my heart opened to him because I knew exactly what he was thinking and what he would try to do. Thank you for stating your opinion much more clearly than I did.

Charlotte, ostensibly the last person in the world to be keyed into Romance, Oh, the poor dear -- put this plainly, it does make one almost weep for her!

I forgot to add - I don't think the Col. is in love with Lizzy. She was an unexpected pleasure, I'm sure. We know that Darcy makes the visit to Rosings annually, but not with great pleasure. And we can assume that Fitzwilliam feels the same. He also makes it very clear that he must marry a woman with some wealth. He enjoys Lizzy's company, and who would not in comparison to what is available. But because they are companionable that we see Darcy struggling to join in their conversations and captured izzy's attention.

My own little question and answer session: Q: Anglela Finally, why did Darcy go to Rosings and take the Col. with him in the first place? A: Serena Perhaps Jane Asuten didn't intend for him to be dwelled on in such detail and (suggested above by someone) he was merely meant as a comparison to Darcy. No bullets from me, Serena, just a gently nodding head.

Just to repeat... Charlotte is Lizzy's best friend, even more so than Jane, at least in the book. She would be the one to understand her best, and to look out for her interests. Col FittzW is Darcy's cousin, not his best buddy. None of Darcy's other relatives understand him, not Lady C, not Anne. Darcy is giving out ambiguous signals, doesn't understand himself. Why should the colonel be any more perceptive? Even Lizzy, who goes out of her way to tell Darcy where she walks so that he might avoid her, is totally baffled when he keeps 'accidentally' meeting her and then not talking to her. I also believe that if Col Fitz had any suspicion at all that Darcy thought of Lizzy as anything more than a pleasant diversion,like himself, he would have cleared out and given him some room to manoevre. And he would have let Darcy know it. As to why Darcy and Fitz were together at Rosings- well don't any of you go to the big house for a family gathering at Easter? And would you face the dragon alone if you could help it?They probably both "had" to be there- why not together?

face the dragon alone haha! Yes, I remember being dragged to many family functions. My Grandmother (we called her Grandmother) used to love to trip us kids with her cane! I loved her a great deal, but never understood her delight in seeing us fall!

Is doesn't mean that if a person is pragmatic in matters of the heart that she will be oblivious to love/attractions happening around her. I am suggesting that Charlotte's praticality is the result of being 'an old-maid' at 27 years and probably in 'defence' of her disappointment in the lack of finding true love. She has therefore taken the role of an observer in such matters thinking herself out of the limelight. What would be the ideal marrital age in a JA's novel?? about 20 or 21.. Charlotte's had a l t of time to think about it and grow insensitive for herself. Thoughts??

Oops, the point I forgot to make above, would be that - if Charlotte had noticed Darcy's attraction, it doesn't mean that Col. Fitz would have seen it coming to. Also Charlotte being Lizzy's friend might count in her awareness.

Am I the only one who has done a double take every time I read ColF above? I have to stop myself and think that it is Colonel Fitzwilliam not Colin Firth.

Ann, I never saw that - AMAZING. I'll spell his name in full.

You have to given Charlotte credit for honing in earlier than anyone else that Darcy is "staring at Lizzy a great deal"; that he might be in love with her. etc. As far as Colonel F.: I'm not really that close to my cousins, but in a social situation, I can tell if they're acting strangely or not. I still can't believe that the Colonel would be completely oblivious to the fact that Darcy is acting "not himself" whenever he's around Lizzy. I'll grant you he might not put two and two together & figure ou Darcy's heart, but he must know that _something_ is up. I just can't go on thinking the man is such a blunderpuss!!

Poor Colonel Fitzwilliam, if this could proven against him, might be in danger of becoming either doofus or blunderpuss. I really like the man, he was conversable and respectable. though not good looking (JA says so, I think). But Amy2 what gave you the impression from the book that Darcy was not behaving like himself and that the Colonel noticed it? We saw him in public places before but this was the first amongst relations of his own. Should Anne de Bourgh have a share of this discussion? Could she have noticed Mr Darcy and the Colonel behaving differently that night at Rosings too?? Did the Colonel pay her less attention this time because of Lizzy's presence?

In P&P2 ColF says that Darcy hardly speaks a word when he is in Kent though he is lively enough in other places--he does not say that Darcy is any more quiet on this visit to Kent than in the past. This seems to imply that Darcy's being so quiet is also a function of being around his Aunt, not just Lizzy.

Let me try understand this (I'm losing myself) Was Darcy considered to be lively or not that one fateful night at Rosings with Lizzy present? I thought he was, more so than we ever saw of him from the start of the novel. But since Colonel Fitzwilliam corrected us on that point when he commented that Darcy was usually lively... Does this mean Darcy was usually lively even at Rosings and so Col Fitzwilliam could not suspect his interest in Lizzy that 'piano' night? or He was just always lively when he was out with his own acquaintances/ relations (except Rosings), but we know that's not the case when he was with the Bingleys. Help!! I'm going back to 'Emma' where everything makes sense.

Ann - Interesting point there is no reason to be lively at Rosings, what oppresive people live there. As others have pointed out, women threw themselves at him all the time. Wtih his position, power, looks etc, he didn't have to be "lively" anywhere. whats my point...? Maybe they are both (Col F and Darcy) are bored out of their cotton pickin' minds and Col F with nothing better to do, recognizes a small change in Darcy's behaviour. He strikes me as keepng his feelings close. They were probably somewhat close, as they are both Georgiana's guardians. (or something like that) They would have to be in contact somewhat regularly. Dont you think.

I think he and the Colonel were good friends. And as for being lively, it seems the kind of fun we have evidence of his having consisted of sarcastic barbs at lower beings. He liked feeding the Bingley sisters giggles for want of nothing better to do. Like Mr Bennet and Lizzy in a way, laughing at idiots. But he was ready for a change. Maybe he was bored with wry biting commentary. Wryness is fun but it makes you spiteful. He was ready for Lizzy's uncitified wit -- he needed a breath of fresh country air.

Part of the confusion over Darcy's liveliness is due to the differences between the novel and the adaptation and Darcy's Story. In the adaptation (P&P2) Fitzwilliam says his cousin is lively other places than Rosings, suggesting that Darcy is not any more engaged than usual. In Darcy's Story, to add further to the confusion, Fitzwilliam comments that Lizzy seems to bring Darcy out more into the conversation, suggesting that Darcy is more engaged than usual. In the novel itself, I don't know if one could say that Darcy is any more lively than he was when he and Lizzy sparred at Netherfield during Jane's illness, suggesting that he is about the same as usual--though perhaps a bit distracted. I believe Austen also writes that, when Fitz and Darcy call at Hunsford, Darcy is unusually quiet and his cousin abuses him for it. So, Austen has him less lively, Darcy's Story has him more lively, and P&P2 has him about the same.

With all that in mind, Ann - I wonder at Darcy not developing somewhat of a split- personality syndrome. Now I see where the confusion arose from. But Amy, wasn't Lizzy just as bitey in her jabs at Darcy?

] But Amy, wasn't Lizzy just as bitey in her jabs at Darcy? __ Well, yeah, but her particular acid was not blended with "I am better than you." I guess that is the difference?

As far as Darcy's altered behavior at Rosings, which Col Fitzwilliam had the chance to observe: When Darcy visits Lizzie at Hunsford, he barely says a word. During the piano scene, he goes out of his way to "view the fair performer's full countenance," banters with her in a most lively manner, COMPLIMENTS her on her playing and temperment ("we neither of us perform to strangers"), and can almost be accused of flirting. Remember too that HE KEEPS POSTPONIING THE DATE OF THEIR DEPARTURE, a very unusual occ rence, considering they're staying with Lady Catherine. So Darcy's lack of our excess of liveliness every time he's around Lizzy would seem to suggest to the observer that he's acting _differently_ than he normally does around young women. That's why I think that Col F. has to pick up on something!

Well, perhaps Col. Fitzwilliam would have noticed a very let-dwon person when they were leaving Rosings. It must have been hell for Col. Fitzwilliam to have had to travel with Darcy after that 'massive' rejection.

Thank you Serena! This is a point made in DARCY'S STORY. I think I mentioned this somewhere above, but isn't it likely that Col F. would have run into Darcy that fateful night too? (not in the book but in P&P2). Would he have noticed Darcy's great disturbance of mind?

A very neat topic... Lynn in #61 - great name, by the way, and spelled the 'right' way! I agree with you that Colonel F. is not in love, but is enjoying his stay at Rosings much more than he expected to. Could it not be that he sees Darcy's behavior as the same thing, meaning Darcy is finding more to enjoy as well, as Lizzy is such a good conversationalist, so this could account for any strangeness in Darcy's behavior. Amy in #78, I see your point as well,and others have made it too, that Darcy keeps postponing the departure. But does this necessarily mean Fitzwilliam sees that Darcy is in love, or at least in like? I think maybe he might see it, because I would hate to think him stupid, in OUR sense of the word, but I'm not sure he would if he was just having a good time. I think probably Fitzwilliam stays at Hunsford so long simply because he had fun with Lizzy and wanted to let her know.

Lynn Thanks for the compliment. But I must tell you, everytime I see your post, I do a double take, since that is my full name also. I think they stay on longer not only for fun with Lizzy, but Darcy's hope that he can pick up some of the Col. good spirits and easy manners. Everytime I watch him during the piano scene, I always think he is saying to himself 'What is Fitzwilliam thinking?, How can I introduce a lively conversation or keep one going?' I don't think he always wants to spar, but I thought he was in love with her already. As he will later demonstrate, he simply cannot verbally express himself very well.

I work with a Daryl Lamy! Any relation to anyone?

Amy2 - Can't Col. Fitz. be a bright man simply not attuned to this particular situation? He may have abused Darcy for being silent but this isn't really out of character for Darcy. Col Fitz has seen Darcy both silent and more animated in front of women I suspect (even if the woman is only Caroline Bingley). Even if he noticed Darcy's greatly disturbed mind, that after Darcy has been rejected by Elizabeth. By that time, what can he say. "Sorry cousin for flirting with the object of your desire." If Co Fitz couldn't marry Elizabeth why should he think that Darcy would consider her. The bottom line is though we may not agree on what Col Fitz should have known, if he didn't know it doesn't mean he's a dunce. He just wasn't even clued in to the situation to even notice it.

The Clueless Colonel?

Men, in general, I think are not as clued into another man's emotional state as one woman is to another's. Charlotte is clued into Darcy's feelings, I don't think Col. Fitz had any idea - it just wouldn't have occurred to him, because men had so much more to think about--work, politics, the war, etc. I don't think that makes him a dunce, or stupid, or even clueless--just a man!!

I still like to believe that Col Fitz. was so much caught up with his attraction to Lizzy and how he as the younger son, couldn't end up with her that he did not notice Mr Darcy's behaviour. He was not clueless only that he saw nothing to strike him on Darcy's part. When Charlotte mentioned how Darcy was behaving unusual, the Col.reply implied that Darcy was not behaving any differently. He was accustomed to seeing Darcy sometimes animated and at other times quiet. So, what am I saying?? Darcy's behaviour was only out of character to us (the readers/viewers) because we have only seen him in unfamiliar surroundings. Perhaps he really does not performs to strangers.

On behalf of the poor Colonel: He probably needed time for reflection before he realized what was up with Darcy. I think he and Darcy went to Rosings for a boring visit with their overbearing Aunt and her mostly silent daughter just to be nice to members of their family. (I think Darcy would not visit Rosings alone unless he had intentions toward his cousin. He would have to know of his aunt's thoughts on that score.) So, anyway, the poor Colonel gets dragged along to try and keep everything civil. Lo and behold, the clergyman's wife has a pretty, witty, single friend visiting at the time of D&F's visit. D calls the shots. He's got wealth and clout after all. D directs them to call on the parsonage. Colonel goes along and finds he really likes the pretty girl. He probably is a bit "smitten," but no more than that. He pulls what enjoyment he can from the whole visit. (For all his trouble, Darcy sneaks out one night and leaves him all alone to carry the evening with LadyC, Anne, and the Collinse .) In all likelihood, Darcy was rotten company on the carriage ride away from Rosings. D may or may not have given Colonel any hints as to why, but he surely gave the Colonel plenty of silent time to think and reflect. Colonel probably smacks himself in the head halfway down the road and says "Darcy, I aplogize. I was so intent on my own enjoyment of Miss Bennet's company I did not realize your own attachment to her! What must you think of me?" MHO

You know what, Genette? Everybody always talks about how reserved these people must have been -- their times, their class dictated it, &tc. But I can't help but believe you may be right in this case. I mean these guys were friends and relation. Wouldn't they have talked a little? Now I agree that Darcy probably would not have confided to his sister as Miss Aylmer has him do -- but maybe!

Since I'm all confused from the actual novel and adaptation, I will only venture to say I think (maybe) Miss Darcy was a little aware of her brother's attraction to Elizabeth. Perhaps not the proposal and refusal, but that he certainly thought highly of her and admired her exceedingly and would wish for his sister to meet her at some point.

Genette, what you said all pretty much sits right with me. Thinking about this, though: "Colonel probably smacks himself in the head halfway down the road and says "Darcy, I aplogize..." - Can you imagine what Darcy's reaction would have been? Ouch

] Now I agree that Darcy probably would not have confided to his sister as Miss Aylmer has him do -- but maybe! __ I really meant to say "Not that I agree..." I really don't know. Probably Darcy and Georgiana would not dish, but Darcy and the Col.? Like Genette said -- together on a long carriage ride? Would they rehash?

Might have been too embarrassing for Darcy to have to admit he was lo and behold, REFUSED!! Especially him being the silent, strong, confident Darcy he must have been looked upon by relations and friends.

I don't know, ladies...I can only go by my own experiences with men. So often my husband gets together with his friends, when he comes home I ask him very important questions about them, their wives, or children. His answer is always the same "I don't know, I didn't ask". In which I always say the same thing "What do you men talk about?!" His reply: "huh?" Him and his friends are also so completely clueless when a woman comes on to them. By these personal experiences, I am of the thought that the Col. knew nothing and Darcy said nothing.

Candace, that is SO true, and exactly the way my husband is, also.

It must be a totally male thing to not ask pertaining questions and when they do know of something embarrassing or something not to mentioned in front of so and so, they let it out at the worse possible time, without a clue to having said anything wrong. So Candace, yes, I agree with the generalization. Not quite on this topic, but I just have to get it out of my system : poor Darcy, I feel for the underdog, must have been so low in spirits (first proposal/first rejection and so violently too), wonder if he's ever been interested in anyone else before Lizzy. Couldn't have been to much of a sweet-talker going by his disasterous choice of words in professing his love. But one can only sympathise with him, even Lizzy must have 'felt' bad, afterall, he was professing his love for and to her, though the method might have been arrogant. Wonder where he would have gone to after Rosings? But the Colonel could have just been the typical sterotyped-description of a man. I wonder if there are any male lurkers reading all this?

Okay, okay. I guess I didn't really redeem the poor Colonel far by supposing he might stumble all over Darcy's hurt feelings during that carriage ride away from Rosings (I'm not sure where they were headed, even after looking at my much tattered copy of P&P). I, like Amy, still maintain that these guys talked some. How else would the Colonel have known about Darcy's interference with Bingley? I love the idea of being a fly on the wall during that carriage ride. (I've read and enjoyed one fanfic that touched on it). However, I don't think that Darcy would be eager to share such an embarrassing and painful experience. I'm sure he would need time to process it for himself, first of all. But one thing I've always enjoyed about Darcy is that he's full of surprises. The way he confesses his admiration of Elizabeth to Caroline at the assembly...etc. (Off to drool, mind wandering in contemplation of Darcy.) Who knows who he might confide in or what he might say?

I think they might have talked some, too. More than Darcy and Georgina.

Yes, he would have needed to spill out a little bit of his anguish and I guess the Colonel would have been the one. Yes, Hiliary more than he would have said to his sister. Don't think he could possibly have said anything to Bingley, especially after his own interference there. Poor Darcy, he must have been so tortured!! And no mates to hang out with, no pubs mentioned!! What a cruel situation Jane Austen put him in.

I'm all astonishment, Genette on reading your comments and others on this Darcy Fitzwilliam relation. As a matter of fact I've been in that carriage for five days now being confined and giving a confined opinion on what that fly might possibly have witnessed; might even appear in fanfic.(Is advertising allowed Amy? I just could not refrain after reading this for the first time, to looking for his first name.)

Oh please do let your fly into FanFic, Ann2. It could be the beginning of a series: Carriage Ruminations.

AG!! I have actually been pondering something of the sort Amy, although in some following carriages, they would maybe be more agreeably engaged ;-). This first one (working name: Via dolorosa is however filled with torment, just like you, Cheryl and myself like it)

Ooh Ann2! Via Dolorosa, the Way of Suffering! Yes, we like to see them suffer don't we? ;-)

Ann2, How about Edward Fitzwilliam for the Col. He's Edward in Young Fitz! Might as well keep the same name!!! I like the idea of your Via Dolorosa! Go to it!;-)

Ann2, I'm breathless with anticipation. Go to it!

Ann2, Got to read the Leaving of Rosings Park and LOVED it! Just what I would imagine their rapport to be. And, of course, Darcy's "yearning eyes" and the "knife stabbed in his breast" were just lovely. Capital, capital!