Emma 3
Topic 240 · 69 responses · archived october 2000
~Amy
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (07:50)
seed
Older messages have been moved to the Austen Archive conference. Here are the last few:
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 244 of 260: Amy (Amy) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:04) * 3 lines
] Amy, were we getting a little too daggy over here for you?!! ;-)
__
No, Susan. It was tame. It just occurred to me that with several posts in a row about admiring different parts of his physical self, it sounded like drool to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 245 of 260: Kim (kimmer) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (08:24) * 1 lines
I apologize if I became too enamoured of Mark Strong's physical attributes here. I will try to contain myself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 246 of 260: Amy (Amy) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (12:57) * 1 lines
No, no. Kim, everybody, please don't misunderstand me. I was only filing, not judging.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 247 of 260: kathleen (elder) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (13:43) * 2 lines
Kim -- no need to apologize or contain yourself! What will the rest of us do if we lose our BROWN fan. We can discuss Mr Strong in two topics now -- what fun!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 248 of 260: Mari Topitzes (Mari) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (14:06) * 5 lines
Meggin - Boots=strong calves shown to best advantage!!!!!! Yes! Yes!
Ladies all; have been too busy to visit the past few days, and your industry has suprised and pleased me more than I can say.
Kim and Kathleen - Go Brown Go! Rah! ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 249 of 260: Barbara Larochelle (bplaroch) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (15:53) * 5 lines
A question for those of you who own the Making of Emma book:
Does anyone know if any other actor was ever considered for the role of Knightley in this production or any other actress for the role of Emma?
I love KB and MS, but I was just wondering? It seems to me I read that CF was always the one that Sue Birtwistle had in mind for P&P2--maybe she felt the same about MS?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 250 of 260: kathleen (elder) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (19:04) * 3 lines
I didn't see anything specifically how the casting was done. But it appears that they cast Kate Beckinsale first, then found MS for Mr Knightley. They wanted the two leads to appear to be about 16 years apart in age.
Raymond Coulthard makes an interesting comment. He said that he was early for his meeting with the casting director (Janey Fothergill). He didn't know the novel so he bought a copy of York Notes (sounds similar to the Cliff's Notes we U.S. college grads k
now), to get a quick idea of the characters. He decided he would be most interested in the FC part and of course that's what he got.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 251 of 260: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:12) * 1 lines
That sounds like a very Frank thing to do...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 252 of 260: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:26) * 5 lines
KB is quoted at the Meridian site on the subject of headwear...she and the costume designer apparently decided that hats, rather than bonnets, would fit Emma's character best...boy, did they take that conversation to heart! Emma is never caught outside wi
thout a hat (except during the proposal scene at Hartfield). To be perfectly honest, I thought most of the hats quite dreadful...the big, maroon, puffy frump with the feathers is particularly menacing in an old-maidy sort of way. The general effect was
that of a young woman aspiring to battle-axedom before her time, which doesn't suit the youthfully-exuberant Emma (no matter how much she protests about the whole marriage thing). I did like the wide-brimmed straw hat she wears at Donwell (that dress wasn
't bad either...), however.
In contrast, Gwyneth Paltrow rarely wears anything on her head...the emphasis is on her cute hairdos, bright clothes, and sunny personality...in fact, the only characters in Emma2 who are religious about head coverings are Mrs. and Miss Bates...the old la
dy and the old maid.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 253 of 260: kathleen (elder) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:39) * 4 lines
I believe it would have been considered very proper to wear a hat or bonnet outdoors -- for everyone, not just old women. After all, a "lady" was not supposed to get a tan (or freckles, like Miss King in P&P). I quite liked the hats KB wore as Emma; I tho
ught they expressed different aspects of her personality and fashion sense very well.
KB also mentions the trouble she and Samantha Morton (Harriet) had in some scenes where they were both wearing hats with wide brims. It created problems with a close-up of the two of them. (Another scene where KB is outside w/o a hat is when she & Harriet
are discussing Mr Martin's proposal.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 254 of 260: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:06) * 2 lines
...And they are in the shade during that scene, are they not? ;) No, I can't argue with the propriety of headgear...however, I think the deliberate (-ly hideous) selections made by the costumer in Emma3, in contrast to the determined focus away from Emma'
s headwear in Emma2 (the only bonnet I can remember is the one Paltrow wears when she gets stuck in the creek, and it's pretty benign), serves to mark the divergence in character between the two Emmas. The number and style of KB's hats lend her an old,
awkish air, while the style and scarcity of Paltrow's bonnets help create an aura of youthful sweetness...remember, I was the one who called Beckinsale's portrayal "bitchy," but not bad...and now that we consider the consistency in which KB's head is cove
red, in addition to the nastiness of most of the coverings, perhaps I should add the word "anal" to my description, as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 255 of 260: kathleen (elder) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:10) * 1 lines
Another instance of agree to disagree, I suppose.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 256 of 260: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:20) * 1 lines
Of course...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 257 of 260: Susan (Susan) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:48) * 4 lines
I apologize if I became too enamoured of Mark Strong's physical attributes here. I will try to contain myself.
Kim, dear, please do not even try! Just hie yourself over to the MS drool section and LET YOURSELF GO CRAZY! ;-P"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 258 of 260: Donna (Donna) * Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (23:06) * 1 lines
I like the BROWN hat that Kate wears when she shows Frank the town. It shaped like a Hershey's Kiss *smooch*;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 259 of 260: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (00:07) * 1 lines
Very perceptive, Donna...but I still thought it was yucky! ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic 206 of 239 [austen]: Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)
Response 260 of 260: kathleen (elder) * Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (06:21) * 3 lines
Two comments on the Box Hill scene. (1) The Eltons are sitting too far from the rest of the group. Mrs Elton would not have wanted to be out of the "center" of attention. I believe that she was close to Jane (in the novel -- don't have a copy handy.)
(2) The servants were an interesting touch. When I read the book, I never imagined that this excursion/picnic was such a production. I especially liked the shot of the servants relaxing at the bottom of the hill until the gentry were ready to leave.
~kimmer
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (08:34)
#1
Kathleen, I just got my hands on "The Making of Emma". What a wonderful book! I have not read it yet, but I have skimmed through it a few times. I love the fact that the screenplay with "stage" directions is included. The pictures are wonderful! There are
so many good ones of Mark Strong.(the "bald" one is nice, too). He appears to have a five o'clock shadow in some of the pictures; howevr i had already noticed that in a few of his close up scenes in the video. My favorite picture has to be one at the bac
of the book after the screenplay.
It was taken during the propasal. KB and MS are facing each other with big smiles on their faces, and KB is standing on her tiptoes. I love it!
~bplaroch
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (13:31)
#2
About the hats...
I thought the hats were supposed to set Emma apart as having more fashion sense than anyone else in little old Highbury (I'm not necessarily saying I like them). In P&P2, Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst are the only ladies wearing hats at the Meryton assembl
y and are thought to be very elegant. Also in Persuasion, Lady R always wears a hat. I thought that was just supposed to show that these women were more concerned about fashion than other women.
I agree that GP going hatless most of the time in Emma2 does give her a more unaffected air than KB has in Emma3. This is imbued in the character in other ways as well. KB looks with utter disdain at Robert Martin. GP does not act nearly so stuck up. I
guess it goes down to interpretation of the character. Also in the old Emma1, she never wears hats, but she does have a lot of fussy little muffs and capes and such.
I also thought that even though some of KB's hats were pretty outlandish, she wore them very well. I try to picture myself in such a hat, and I can only imagine the comments, "I had no idea she could look so very clownish, so totally without air..."
~Kali
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:49)
#3
I try to picture myself in
such a hat, and I can only imagine the comments, "I had no idea she could look so very clownish, so totally without air..."
LOL, Barbara!
The fashionable ladies you mention are indeed sartorial goddesses - and they're also OBNOXIOUS!!! Note, too, that Caroline B. is well on her way to oldmaiddom, certainly in spirit if not in the literal sense.
Check out this expression...ack!
I really have to See Emma1...it sounds like a party...
~Kali
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:51)
#4
She looks like the Mad Hatter..."And a very merry unbirthday to you...!"
~bernhard
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:55)
#5
hee, hee
~elder
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:10)
#6
Kim: My favorite picture has to be one at the back of the book after the screenplay. It was taken during the propasal. KB and MS are facing each other with big smiles on their faces, and KB is standing on her tiptoes. I love it!
I agree. And I like the pre-kiss picture on page 148 as well. These don't really look like publicity photos. I suppose they were either lighting checks or maybe different shots of the scenes which got left out in the final version. The picture you men
tion shows so much happiness on their faces, it is wonderful to contemplate.
The picture of the leading ladies (page 14, outfits from the strawberry party) is also a nice one.
~Kali
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:12)
#7
And a very merry unbirthday to you, too, Mrs. Bernhard...;)
~bernhard
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (18:54)
#8
Kali, you crack me up.
(and you know I'm still in my stunned state of being)
~Serena
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:36)
#9
Kali, I see you're still nailing it spot-on the point. Her hats/bonnets did add to an overbearing-Emma and were very becoming to her protrayal of Emma.
I quite pictured Emma more liked Gweneth did.
~elder
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:53)
#10
I loved the scene (in Emma3, BTW) where Emma & Harriet visit the Bates and find FC and Jane Fairfax. Frank and Jane subtly but surely showed their embarrassment and affection. She clearly understands all of his comments, and Emma is quite clueless (alth
ough Emma thinks she is the one in the know).
~bernhard
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (20:08)
#11
Speaking of being clueless or in-the-know, what of old Mrs. Bates? Is she the total ditz? She always understands what Jane says, but then Jane speaks so clearly.
Just something I've always wondered about, ever since my first reading, ? years ago.
~elder
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (20:15)
#12
Maybe Mrs Bates is "selectively" deaf! My father was like that -- he always seemed to hear what he wanted to hear (or what I did not want him to hear!). Mrs Bates might have preferred, at times, just to tune out her talkative daughter.
~bernhard
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (20:40)
#13
But what of her awareness of all that transpired between Jane and Frank?
~Nicole
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (23:05)
#14
I just bought A&E "Emma" at Costco for $12.39 Canadian {what a deal}, and
at the beginning there is about 1 or 2 min. of the Making of P.&P.
I love M.S. interpretation of Mr. Knightley.
~Susan
Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (23:49)
#15
Mrs Bates might have preferred, at times, just to tune out her talkative daughter.
Sheer self-preservation, Kathleen!
I love M.S. interpretation of Mr. Knightley.
You are in good company, Nicole, and most welcome!
~elder
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (02:26)
#16
Indeed, Nicole, it's always nice to meet another MS/Knightley fan.
I was enjoying the Christmas Eve dinner at the Westons'. When Mrs Weston says she forgives Frank for not having visited yet, the look between Mr & Mrs Weston is so loving. Very affectionate couple.
[You must talk amongst yourselves for a few days. I am going to visit some friends until Tuesday night. Catch you later.]
~Serena
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (03:27)
#17
"But what of her (Mrs Bates) awareness of all that transpired between Jane and Frank?"
Cindy, I always wondered about that..though with Miss Bates
I sometimes get the impression, when reading the book that Miss Bates was somewhat let into the secret, I found that especially when the rivots of the spectacles scene, and how Miss Bates was loudly, incessantly reminding the newly arrived guest of the "s
tep at the turning", it seemed like she was alerting Jane of their coming back into the flat.. or have I always imagined that?
~LynnMarie
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (08:43)
#18
Serena, I agree about the "step at the turning" bit; it does seem as though she knows what is going on, but in the book, did she really? I'm not sure.
Speaking of the Christams dinner, one thing that has bothered me is Mr. K's words about FC, about how he should have come sooner. They all knew this to be so, but it seems a little ungentlemanly to criticize Mr. Weston's son in front of him. I can see h
im saying it to Emma in private, but in front of everyone? I thought this was a little rude, something that a true gentlman like Mr. K would not do, regardless of his real feelings on the matter.
I too loved the addition of the servants on Box Hill, and the way they show them riding on the cart, holding everything down, and then dropping things on the way up. It really makes you think about how much trouble this would all be. Certainly not an ou
ting to be taken lightly.
~kimmer
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (14:55)
#19
Lynn, I wondered about that, too. it does seem a little out ofcharacter for K to critiisize in front of F's father. He also does something like that after he finds out F. has gone to London to get his hair cut. He mutters under his breath about F. being t
he silly fellow he thought he was. Maybe he is just so jealous of F. that he cannot help his reaction.
~Susan
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (15:16)
#20
As far as Miss Bates knowing about Frank and Jane, I'm afraid that I'm unable to believe that she would be able to keep a secret from spilling from her lips even if her very life depended on it. We used to use a grossly indelicate expression to describe
people like her: we said they had 'diarrhea of the mouth." Miss Bates is definitely infected with that disease -- she's one of those "Think it; say it" people. ;-)
Yes, Kathleen, the Westons do exchange many loving looks. I particularly like the one you're talking about, when Mrs. Weston says, "Well, I forgive him," meaning Frank.
I agree it seems rather presumptuous of Mr. Knightley to criticize Frank in front of the Westons and others, but I think he is such a gentleman himself that he is appalled by a lack of gentlemanly behavior in others. However, to have him display this by
being somewhat ungentlemanly himself, and possibly causing pain to his friends, does seem "un-Knightley-like." But I forgive him... ;-)
Aren't the servant scenes great? My personal favorite is still the scene where they have to stand there and move the cushions down every few feet for the strawberry pickers. And it's taken so much for granted. It's no wonder the servants always talked
so much and had so much gossip to carry; no one ever seems to hold their tongue in front of them.
~Donna
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (15:40)
#21
Mr. Knightley is one to feel a sense of duty and thinks everyone else should Where Frank is knowingly avoiding visiting his father to be with Jane Fairfax. Once Jane has arrived he is there.
~Amy
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:05)
#22
I didn't find it all that out of character for him to say what he thought was right. I did like the added touch of the Westons being a little
amused by his bluntness. I think the look they exchanged was meant to tell us that
Knightley is not a jerk, just a person who won't hesitate to say what he believes is right and just.
~bernhard
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:20)
#23
They exchange the same sort of look after Knightley takes leave to tend to his delayed business, too. They seem rather more amused at K's taking it so seriously than by Frank's being a "coxcomb" as Mr. Weston called him.
As Emma said at the very first scene, I believe "Mr. Weston would take it very much amiss" if Miss Taylor had not shown at the church for their wedding.
~Serena
Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (18:22)
#24
"They seem rather more amused at K's taking it so seriously than by Frank's being a "coxcomb"
I agree with that comment, Cindy but it does not add to Mr Knightley's attraction of being the true gentleman, if the Westons (themselves considered respectable) could be amused by his sense of honour and in front of people too that would learn from their behaviour (such as Harriet and Emma even) Mark S was usually uptight about something or other. I thought this adaptation had him to caught up with duty. There was little warmness in his character. Don't get me woring, I think he does a great job given
he script he had to work with.
~Kali
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:52)
#25
I agree with you, Serena...his comment about duty at the Christmas party was perhaps a bit too blunt to be in character...he may not hesitate to speak his mind about Frank to Emma in private, but I greatly doubt he would take such a public shot about a man he's never met - in front of his parents and their friends! It sounds like more of a John thing to do...(and he does, in his own style...the line about the Churchills' money).
Everyone knows how I feel, but again, I have to say that this script allows Mark Strong too much "tall (and righteous!) indignation"...I've always thought Mr. Knightley too circumspect to get so petulant (the above-mentioned Frank comment, his reading of "It would do her good!", the ranting after Frank's no-show, &C.). He's supposed to have a commanding air, but he's not supposed to be publicly obnoxious.
~Kali
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:53)
#26
Oops, Serena! I see now that you meant the haircut day scene...no matter, it all equals the same anyhow...
BTW - I DO like Mark Strong...a lot, as a matter of fact...I just wish that he would tone himself down a bit sometimes...
~Serena
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (03:14)
#27
And he had such a warm, sincere, caring smile, it seemed a pity he was always so uptight..
~Susan
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (03:27)
#28
I felt the same way as you guys until I watched Emma3 a few times, then it seemed more in perspective. I love the play between Emma and Knightley when he helps her out of the carriage at Randalls ("Nonsensical girl!"); the honest comments and looks he gives her when they are talking about how talented Jane is and Emma is not; the way he always remembers to offer a hand or an arm, or to bow and excuse himself before leaving a conversation; and last but not least, the way he looks in the scene where Isabel
a and John come to visit (I know this is not new, but God, do I love it!).
~bernhard
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:08)
#29
Susan, and the strawberry party, don't forget the strawberry party!
:-)
~Susan
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:49)
#30
As if I could, Cindy! Brown rules!
I was just trying to focus, at least for a short time, on his gentlemanly ways, since I now have a drool site for my lustful appreciations...
~Susan
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:50)
#31
BAD words!
~kimmer
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:07)
#32
After reading "the Making of Emma" and AD's and MS's comments about Mr. Knightly, I believe they were trying to show him as a man deeply in love (although he did not realize it in the beginning). He is jealous of Frank Churchill and thinks he is going to lose the relationship with Emma that he has had for so long. MS says that he was worried at first that people would be put off by him always having a go at Emma,but he realized his strong reactions were always out of his deep feeling for Emma. At Box Hill
he is devastated because of Emma's behavior to Miss Bates, and he is hurt by the way he thinks Emma feels about Frank.It all comes to a head and he has his very strong words for Emma. needless to say, I find MS as Mr. Knightly perfect.
Cindy, I think I came into all of this a little late, and I have not had a chance to read some of the earlier postings. Would it be too hard on you to tell me what it is exactly about the strawberry party you love? Is it just the brown clothes?
~kimmer
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:28)
#33
Here is a portion of the interview with MS from the "making of " book.:
"I pared it down to basics. He's loved Emma for a long time, even though he's not necessarily concious that he wants to marry her at the beginning of the story. He is patient and he's waiting and he's guiding her, and then suddenly here comes this boy, Frank Churchill, who ruins everything. Knightly's whole world is turned on its head. I think the first times he feels that everything is falling away is when he and Emma walk into the Westons'arty together. We have this lovely chat-she's smiling and I'm sm
ling- and then the door opens and there's Frank, and she beams a big smile at him.(Kim's note: Did that cut this scene out? I do not remember seeing it.) Suddenly it's not about me and her anymore.I think he feels a bit superflluous, and I must admit in playing the scene, that I felt a bit like a spare part, too. He gets irritated by this boy, and starts telling off Emma more sharply than he's ever done before. He's probably going home in the evening and thinking,"Why on Earth did I do that? What is hap
ening?'. I think, slowly, he works it out for himself. He comes to realize that he loves her. And he fears that he may lose her to this young pup.
At this point I worried that, becuase I was always having a go at Emma, the audience might not see the love behind it. I was talking to Jimmy Hazeldine about this one day and he said not to worry, that for him the scene at Box Hill where Knightly pulls Emma up on her behaviour to Miss Bates was an act of love. He said that people don't take that kind of interest in somebody unless they have very special feelings for them.
After that scene, Knightly is convinced that he's lost Emma to Frank and takes himself off to London and only returns when he hears of Frank's engagement to Jane. What's lovely about the propasal scene is that it sort of happens by accident. He thinks she'll be devasted by Frank. She thinks he is in love with Harriet. So neither expects what suddenly happens............."
I apologize for this being so long, but I thought some of you might be interested in MS's comments.
Susan, for your information, this portion is on page 21, next to page 20 that Kathleen and I have already discussed as having a wonderful "hat" picture.
~Kali
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:41)
#34
Yes, Mark Strong plays an incredibly jealous lover. Too obviously jealous if you ask me. Almost spiteful, and it bugs. Susan, I wish there were more light moments like that upon arrival at the pianoforte scene party...
My general original comments are preserved for all to see at http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/kalem3rev.html
Susan's tracking of Knighltey's love for Emma is at http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/susem3rev.html
~Kali
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:49)
#35
BTW, I finished my sixth viewing of this film on Friday...I purchased the video the week it was broadcast.
~JohanneD
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:59)
#36
Thanks a bunch for those comments, not having it yet, awaiting this book's arrival with much impatience
]He said that people don't take that kind of interest in somebody unless they have very special feelings for them.
Well, I believe we do :)
~bernhard
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:49)
#37
Kim, let's see,now what exactly about the strawberry party?
In short, just about everything! Every last minute detail.
- Mrs. E's being glad not to have any form to their day, but wishing they's come in on a donkey
- Emma's making faces behind Mrs. E's back, registering them with Mr. K
- "perhaps not"
- Mrs. E's face after Knightley puts her off
- the servants standing out in the garden, in full dress, just to move the little cushions
- One of My Absolute favorites - "are you fond of sheep then, Mrs. Elton?" - AG!
- Mr. K sitting at table licking strawberry juice off his fingers
- everything else
However, my constantly quoting "perhaps not" goes back to my thinking that he (MS) is at his absolute cutest in his brown hat, brown coat, with big brown playful eyes that are trying not to give away too much that he's admitting to seeing the faces that Emma's making at Mrs. E behind her back. And in my shallowest of shallow feelings, the hat frames his face very nicely (and covering the receding). And FYI, I have officially changed my favorite color to brown, for various reasons. ;-)
~Kali
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:17)
#38
I agree with whoever said he looked good completely bald...he looks VERY nice that way...
~Serena
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:52)
#39
Do we get to see a scanned picture Kali, or is that asking too much? Please.
~bernhard
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:56)
#40
Serena, there's one in Darcy's drool, CF and MS wearing red shirts in a crowd. (shot from Fever Pitch)
~Serena
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:59)
#41
Thanks.. haven't been to drool for ages and ages.. on my way now..
~bernhard
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:02)
#42
Serena, in fact, the lovely Johanne put it in as #11 in Mark Strong.
~Susan
Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (22:45)
#43
Kim, thanks so much for sharing; it gives us a lot of insight into how MS saw his character. He's probably going home in the evening and thinking,"Why on Earth did I do that? What is hapening?'. I think, slowly, he works it out for himself. He comes to realize that he loves her. And he fears that he may lose her to this young pup. Poor man! I can't WAIT for this book. (And BTW, I don't remember that scene where she smiles at Frank at the Westons, either.)
Kali, I know this wasn't an Emma moment, but how about the fun Knightley has playing with John and Isabella's kids? He really lets his hair down there, so to speak. And as Cindy mentioned above, the way he enjoys baiting Mrs. Elton at the strawberry party as Emma laughs. And the scene where he is smiling behind Mrs. Bates's back as she says the 'three silly things' line. And his "very sprightly" about Frank's dancing at the ball. I guess I see all of this as showing his sense of humor.
I'm curious, Kali, since I really do value your opinion -- what kinds of other things keep drawing you back to watch since it's not MS's performance? (BTW, I promise to watch Emma2 when it comes out on video with a completely open mind.)
Cindy, LOL re "-Everything else!" That "perhaps not" moment is my fave.
And again I ask -- if anyone finds a decent MS-as-Knightley picture, please share PRONTO!
~Serena
Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (02:15)
#44
Susan, it must be this very topic and all the excitiment amongst Emma3 people about how MS's facial expression shows this or that and his subtle gestures, overpowering only because it is not obvious to the impatient viewer the 1st or 2nd or 3rd time, that draws Emma2 fans to Emma3 video over and over again. But that's my excuse, that and the fact that Emma2 is not available. I would like to know why Kali watches it too- seeing how she almost banished me from Emma2 discussion because I mentioned how MS was
growing on me!!
~janea
Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (05:38)
#45
Ladies, have you noticed that it doesn�t matter which of the adaptations we discuss - we always come back to how they _look_ at each other. The way Darcy looks at Lizzy, how Knightley looks at Emma, how Brandom looks at Marianne. It�s wonderful how much they can say with their eyes. You can feel the love, the strong emotions. I love it!
~kimmer
Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (13:07)
#46
I agree Jane. The looks are so important. There are many of these such looks between Emma and Mr. Knightly in Emma 3. I love the way Mr. KNightly looks at Emma at Christmas time after they have made up with each other.
I read in the "Making of" book that the proposal scene was actually filmed in the first week. Interesting, I thought.
~Ann
Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (13:10)
#47
The proposal was also filmed very early for P&P.
~Inko
Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (16:40)
#48
Ann, that was the first proposal in P&P2 - it was filmed after only two weeks. But the second proposal was at the very end of shooting because they had to wait for the autumn foliage!!
~Kali
Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (17:51)
#49
People, I don't doubt that Mark Strong's Knightley loves and wants Emma very much...however, his love is so often shown in such an odd way...like I said last month, so often he is forced to react explosively to her because he can't express his interest in her any other way. He acts like a father at the end of his rope, who can do nothing but "Ka-BOOM!" when the daughter does or says something stupid or detrimental. Certainly, the reaction is a natural one, but Strong so overuses it that it doesn't jibe
ith the character, in my opinion. Since I have been corrupted by jeremy's influence, I am also aware of other, less rage-filled and sexually-frustrated portrayals (sexual frustration can be entertaining without being kosher to the book) which better fit my view of the character. I see Mr. Knightley as rather Apolline, rarely indulging in loud and obvious temper tantrums. This is not to say that he doesn't get crazy from time to time. Even Apollo had a temper - flayed Pan, bonked Hyacinth on the head w
th a discus, and chased Daphne like Pepe Le Peu chases Penelope the cat - and Jeremy's knightley has one too (he physically roughs up Gwyneth at Box Hill...)
In the novel, Mr. Knightley certainly exhibits his share of "tall indignation," but it never becomes monotonously tiresome as it does in emma3 (he's supposed to have "a cheerful manner which always did him good"). Much of his bitterness (I thought this was supposed to by JOHN'S territory - John is supposed to be a foil to make George look like Mr. Happy/Thoughtful) is made public in this adaptation, whereas in the novel, most of his rage is contained and directed (vs. the haircut explosion, the duty comm
nt at the party, and his very public rescue of Jane at the pianoforte - in the book, Mr. knightley suggests to Miss Bates that SHE ought to drag Jane away, and she does). Every time you see him, practically, he is ranting or complaining about something...the poor man just can't seem to relax (okay, I'll give him the carriage arrival at the Weston's and the "Nonsensical girl!" scene on that score...but it's written that he reacts playfully...oh, and yes, Susan, the kids...but who doesn't like kids?
Mark Strong makes it obvious that he's a CARING grouch!).
As I've said many times before, this portrayal is fine if we're speaking generally (there's lots of room for maneuvering inside this envelope, but sometimes we can push its edges!)...and to be honest (how many times must I repeat this?!), I really do enjoy some of his scenes ("Badly done, indeed!" and the proposal). He's an alright Knightley, and this is a very good production of my favorite novel of all time! I enjoy its treatment of the Frank and Jane affair, appreciate several of the portrayals (Prun
lla Scales' Miss Bates, Guy Henry's John, etc.), and welcome this and any other decent treatments of such a wonderful story. Mark Strong's and Kate Beckinsale's performances (whether you consider them to be perfect or less than) do not loom so large that you can't enjoy the production as a whole.
~cassandra
Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (18:04)
#50
JN "physically roughs up Emma at BOX Hill". OOOH KALI!! Why did that give me such pleasure? Perhaps Johanne is right-I am masochistic.
I agree though. Strong's Mr Knightley was too one-dimensional to fulfill my expectations. He is either overwrought and angry or quiet and longing. The Box Hill scene really is a good point of comparison. Yes-Jeremy is angry, but his body language and tortured expressions tell another tale. When I took a friend to see the movie(she had never read the book), she thought he was going to take Emma in his arms-right there. She kept looking back, like Emma in the book, for him to return.
Feel free to attack me.
~Kali
Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (18:24)
#51
I thought that they both did a damn good job with that scene, but Jeremy's was all the more powerful because he hadn't wasted the power of his ire in previous scenes.
Go to http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/kalem2def.html for a better explanation on my part.
~Serena
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (03:42)
#52
Kali & Cassendra, do the pair of you visit Emma3 just to continually rub Jeremy Knightley up against Mark Strong? I'm beginning to feel more 'sympathy' for MS now than ever. He was uptight but gentle, agressive but feelingly so. He came across more of the mature man capable of running that massive estate of his. Jeremy Knightley appeared somewhat (now..I'm going to be shot dead in my sleep!!) a little to playful for a man of 37 or 38. Yes, he was very cheerful and charming. But he was too obviously t
e person for Emma right from the start. It was almost as though he was just hanging about waiting to be married to her. There was too much chemistry (though I loved it all) right from the beginning. Am I alone in this revelation??
~Kali
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:19)
#53
Nope, we don't - really! It just keeps coming up because we can't help but compare the two when we're talking of one or the other...pray forgive us.
And as for me, I've always seen the chemistry in the novel between Emma and Mr. Knightley...she's such a flirtatious little thing, and she doesn't even realize it (I don't blame the guy for falling like he does), and Mr. Knightley is so protective of her...
Also, who says that men in their late thirties can't be charming and playful? It is written that he's cheerful...and it's obvious from the text that he has a wry sense of humor.
~Kali
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:21)
#54
Oh, and as far as waiting around to marry Emma, the same could be said of Mark Strong, who gives the impression of a man embittered by the fact that the object of his desire is sexually oblivious to him.
~janea
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:36)
#55
For obvious reasons most of the discussion here is about Mr Knightley. But how about Emma? Am I the only one who is a little reluctant to Kate Beckinsale? If Mark Strong is the perfect Mr Knightley, is Kate B really the right Emma for him? Is she the right Emma for us? I don�t know if I prefer Gwenyth (do you spell it like that?) because I�ve only seen Emma 2 once at the cinema and that�s not enough (I�m longing for the videorelease) but I`m not all that fond of Kate. I�m writing this at work and have no
ustenbooks here (can you imagine...) but isn�t Emma supposed to be 21 or something like that? That was quite an age then. I know you can�t compare the leading ladies from different JA books, but I think that Kate�s Emma is so _young_ . Much more the same age as Lydia, then as Lizzy if you see what I mean.
~Serena
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:36)
#56
Kali, I didn't mean that man at 37 or 38 couldn't be charming. I meant only that he was a little too playful for someone with that amount of responsibility. I said he was charming and cheerful but that had nothing to do with the age he was.
Did you really think MS's Knightley came across frustrated at his lack of appeal to Emma? I never thought about that before.
~Serena
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:40)
#57
Jane, on that score, I felt Gweneth was the more becoming Emma of the two. Kate's Emma was too harsh and almost catty. I don't think I'm alone in this opinion.
~janea
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (07:19)
#58
Serena, I agree that she�s almost catty. But don�t you think that she seems a little young to? She supposed to be spoiled and protected but also 21. To me she is more like 16 or 17.
~Serena
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (08:10)
#59
I guess so Jane, her mannerisms came across quite 'youngish'. How old is she?
~janea
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (09:31)
#60
In real life you mean? I don�t know. I haven�t got my "The making of...." here at work. I guess she is 22-23 perhaps. But she seems much younger to me.
~JohanneD
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (10:43)
#61
Agree with both of you Serena and Jane, Kate B's portrayal way to harsh, spoiled brat type, even up-nose disdain can be seen which I cannot reconcile with the character. She does come out closer to Lydia than Lizzy, who's suppose to be the same age!
Given that each script in their own context, Gwyneth comes out the true Emma and as Knightley I must admit a man with that much responsability and that much on his shoulder should come closer to MS altough without that much anger, but a personnality and composure probably more serious than the playfull and mischievous JN's. I can definitely hear the bows and arrows swooshing on target around my head and neck...
But with this said, cannot wait to see it again and sure will be swept of my feet again and again by the wonderful Knightley (what a proper name) and find only praise, no faults, in this remarkable adaptation of Doug McGrath's Emma.
~Hollis
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:03)
#62
After watching Emma3 again, I have come to the conclusion that it is better than I originally thought. You have to really look for the nuances between Emma and Mr. Knightly, but they are there. I would have preferred Mark Strong to be a little more "fun" but I think he did a good job of showing the "big brother" attitude towards Emma. I had to really look though for the "sexual" awareness part that he has towards Emma.
Kate does seem like a younger Emma than Gwyneth. I believe in real life they are close in age but Gwyneth Paltrow has an elegance about her that gives her a more mature air.
Regardless I will be watching both versions over and over and over....
~bplaroch
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (13:15)
#63
I have to say that I prefer GP to KB as Emma. Emma is supposed to be a bit snobbish, but in an endearing kind of way. I thought GP hit just the right note with this. KB, however, was almost leaning over to the "Caroline Bingley" end of the snob-o-meter in some ways. Some of the looks she gave Robert Martin! She also said some pretty b*****Y things. When Frank arrived all hot and bothered at the strawberry party and she said "Choose your own degree of crossness," for example. I don't even think this l
ne is in the book (or at least I can't find it). I think I would attribute (blame?) this more on the script and the direction than on KB herself. As some of us have said over in the Cold Comfort Farm discussion, KB's Flora was almost more Emma-like than Emma in Emma3.
I have a question. If the Eltons are out to get revenge on Emma at the ball at the Crown, why are they so nice to her on their visit when they first come to Highbury?
~cassandra
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (13:59)
#64
"do the pair of you visit Emma3 continually just to rub Jeremy Knightley up against Mark Strong.."
Oh comeon Serena-lighten up! This Knightley feud is pretty futile anyways. NOne of us are ever going to agree on who is the better Mr KNightley, especially me. As for JN being to playful-where does it say in the book that Mr Knightley is not playful? "Mr Knightley had a cheerful manner which always did him good."
Personally, I always saw the chemistry in the Knightley/Emma relationship; it was pretty obvious to me, practically from the begining, who she would/must marry. There are dozens of subtle hints/references; one of my favorites: Emma and Mr KNightley are bantering about who is best capable of taking care of the boys and "Mr Knightley seemed to be trying not to smile..."
As for MS looking more commanding/capable of managing Donwell-this criticism of JN, again, is kinda despreate-grasping at straws. He has a definite commanding presence-the Box Hill scene is arguably the best example. The way he is the first to speak, offer his arm, after Miss Bates' humiliation.
AS for the Eltons-They epitomize the "two faced" personality. Emma is after all Miss Woodhouse.
~bplaroch
Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (16:26)
#65
I have to say that I prefer GP to KB as Emma. Emma is supposed to be a bit snobbish, but in an endearing kind of way. I thought GP hit just the right note with this. KB, however, was almost leaning over to the "Caroline Bingley" end of the snob-o-meter in some ways. Some of the looks she gave Robert Martin! She also said some pretty b*****Y things. When Frank arrived all hot and bothered at the strawberry party and she said "Choose your own degree of crossness," for example. I don't even think this l
ne is in the book (or at least I can't find it). I think I would attribute (blame?) this more on the script and the direction than on KB herself. As some of us have said over in the Cold Comfort Farm discussion, KB's Flora was almost more Emma-like than Emma in Emma3.
I have a question. If the Eltons are out to get revenge on Emma at the ball at the Crown, why are they so nice to her on their visit when they first come to Highbury?
~Kali
Thu, Mar 27, 1997 (01:33)
#66
Two-faced, indeed! Get their digs in when they can...
As far as Kate and Gwyneth...
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/kalem2def.html
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/kalem3rev.html
~terry
Thu, Mar 27, 1997 (18:54)
#67
Kali, you're the only person to make it here in two days. We had to move
our isp and are waiting for the new ip addresses to kick in. The InterNIC
called and told me the chagnes should kick in sometime within 24 to 48 hours
of 12 noon today, 10 pm EST tonight at the earliest. I'm sorry that this
place has to go in to hibernation for so long.
~Garson
Mon, Mar 31, 1997 (12:21)
#68
Thank you, Terry, for the wake-up call on my e-mail. It drew me back to this conference, and the wonderful topic of Jane Austen.
I think some of you are being too hard on the productions of EMMA. They were both wonderful and the actors did stupendous jobs. Think back, for all of you who have been reading Jane since high school and before, that until the last few years we had nothing (except, of course, the 1940 vintage, Hollywood-style film starring Greer Garson and Laurence Olivier - talk about drool!). But now we have so many excellent costume dramas depicting the people who've only been images in our reading receptacles! I t
ink both the Mr. Knightleys did well. Jeremy Northam carried his part well opposite Gwyneth (was he better because he was opposite her? - the pretty, coquettish blonde?). And Mark Strong played his role with equal dash (anyone else see a similiarity between him and Matt Lauer of the TODAY SHOW on NBC? - Distant cousins? Hmmm. A modern-day Mr. Knightley).
The only problem I have is with the authoress. Why oh why did Jane only live to write 6 novels? Would that she could have had today's medicine, and, say, lasted through our Civil War. What joys would then be in store?
~Susan
Tue, Apr 1, 1997 (00:42)
#69
Kim and Linda, please e-mail me at susan@kyeng.com to continue our discussion one-on-one!