Austen Heroines

Who is your favorite Austen heroine and why? Elizabeth Bennet; wit, intelligence, good-humor, energy, optimism Who do you think is the most developed and believable heroine? Emma Which character(s) do you most identify with? Mr Bennet

Favorite heroine: Elizabeth Bennet, w/ Anne Elliot a very close second. Both are believable, intelligent, good people -- I would enjoy being friends w/ either of them, and they would be loyal friends, too. Most developed & believable heroine: Anne Elliot. I identify most with Lady Russell (my advice has never been quite so wrong, however!).

I agree with you, Kathleen, on Anne being the best-developed and most mature heroine. Lizzy is my favorite overall...she's smart, down-to-earth, and decent. However, I identify most with Emma...;) - K

My favorite heroine is definitely Elizabeth and I also love Anne Elliot (just like Kathleen). Again, like Kathleen I think Anne is the best developed and most mature heroine. I identify most with Elizabeth - she is willing to stand by her principles for matrimony even if it may mean being single. Karen

I agree with you all. Elizabeth is my favorite, but Anne Elliot is the best-drawn of Austen's heroines.

I think we all think alike. I, too, loved Anne Elliot. Being the same age as her and never married, but close to it. I was also told that I should break off the relationship. But mine was different, he was a jerk. Capt. Wentworth just had no money at the time. But they should have allowed that to change.

I love all of JA's heroines. Even poor Fanny. Maybe especially Catherine Morland who was filtering experience through common sense and gaining knowledge at a rapid rate.

Thank you, Katy Kendall! I too, have a soft spot for Catharine. And an even softer one for Charlotte Heywood, as incomplete as she is. I have to confess, though that the heroine who intrigues me the most,though I could never identify with her, is Susan Vernon. If written by a more modern author, she would be a great psychological study.

I know most of you would say my idol is Lydia, but that is far from the truth. I ardently admire and love Lizzy for her zest for life, and sharp tongue. But I also have a soft spot for Marianne's romantic nature and energy, even if she was "a bit" impetuous

I do like Anne Elliot for independent nature as she is loyal to her friend Mrs. Smith. Who is in need of a good friend but, who is not dwelling on her own misfortunes.

I would have to say my favorite character is of course Lizzy. I think the most developed is of course Anne. I most identify with Lizzy with her wit, as mentioned above her zest for life, her love for nature and fresh air, and she is very intelligent, and Marianne she is full of a love for music, especially the piano and voice, and has a passion for poetry and Shakespeare. She is also very romantic. When she gives her heart she gives it as a whole, she doesn't believe in giving it in parts. If she lov s someone they know it. She also has recovered from a huge heartbreak.

I suppose my favorite will have to be a tie between Lizzy and Anne. I love Lizzy because she is so high-spirited, charming, witty and has integrity, but I really like Anne because even though she is quiet, she has all the important qualities-and, most importantly, she never complains. She does not go around moaning that her life is broken. If anything, she is too helpful (e.g. w/ Mary). And I think she feels very deeply, but it is not on the surface, like in Marianne (I love her too) but is hidden deep in ide and is all the more intent for that. And I like Catherine, because I sympathise with her, and I think she is a very realistic portrayal of a 16-17 yr old. The one heroine I can't bear is Elinor-she always gets on my nerves.

Why does everyone dislike Elinor? I admire her quiet fortitude and organizational talents...;)

Kali, I agree with you. While Lizzie is my favorite, followed by Anne Elliot, I think there is much to admire in Elinor. I prefer her to Marianne. There is something of the same quiet fortitude in Elinor as there is in Anne. But nobody can replace Lizzie in my affections - her wit, liveliness and love of being outside - in fact her energy can't be matched in my opinion.

Does everyone dislike her? Marianne admits that her behavior should have been like hers. Elinor has to be strong for Marianne. I especially like the scene when they are all crying but, Elinor. She sits on the steps and has Marianne's cup of tea.It seems quite funny but,Oh, so desperate at the same time.It was heartwrenching to watch her suffer so.

Donna -- I always liked Elinor. She seemed a bit too mature for a 19-year old (especially since that was about my age when I met her), but I admired her and appreciated her immensely. Emma T's portrayal was superb, was it not?!

You have met her! Well very good indeed and how does get on these days. Oh how is dear Edward.It was indeed SUPERB.

A thought: Lizzie is what Jane Austen was in private (or wished she could be like in public) and Anne Eliot was more like she really was. No wonder we are drawn to her novels, half of the above answers refer to wanting to be like her, we are like her, or want to be her friend. I think there is a lot to relate to if not currently then in our pasts in regards to the relationships, even if it is just basic. Or I am completely missing the boat and we all just want happy endings. Whatever. Dina

She said that Anne Eliot was "a heroine who is perhaps too good for me" and Emma Woodhouse "a heroine whom no one but myself shall much like" (paraphrased from memory)... Her brother expressed the view that Jane Austen was both Elinor and Marianne of S&S -- click on the link at look at the first poem: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/othpoems.html (Note: the uts.cc.utexas.edu machine may be down over the next day or two...)

Does anybody remember who on AUSTEN-L wrote that nice piece about how he feels about the heroines? Was it Doug? Henry, you must remember; you remember everything. I'll try a search. It's worth a little trouble.

You got the Emma quotation right, H...but how wrong Austen was (though I know you agree with her...)!

Several months ago I wondered to Austen-L about how male Austen fans feel about the heroines. Here was the most thoughtful reply. ] print all of 006439 ] Item number 6439, dated 96/06/21 12:54:56 -- ALL Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:54:56 -0400 Reply-To: Jane Austen List Sender: Jane Austen List From: Doug Short Organization: UNC Subject: What do guys feel... In-Reply-To: Amy wrote: ] And that makes me wonder how male readers of JA feel about ] the heroines. Do you guys identify with them? Or do you ] want them? Or what exactly is your feeling about them ] as you are reading? OK, Amy, I'll bite. Your question is seems so natural, but oddly enough, I'd never really thought about my relationship to Austen's characters in such stark terms: "identify with," and "want." After years of reading the novels, I'm actually taken by surprise. Naturally enough, I relate to the heroines individually, not as a group, and in recent years my perceptions are enriched, or blurred, by the various characterizations in film and video. My favorite Austen novel is either P&P, Emma, or Persuasion -- whichever I've read most recently (although if I could only take one to a desert island, I'd probably pack P&P). But as for identifying with or desiring the heroines themselves, I guess it's sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes neither, and occasionally both. Gender difference presents no barrier to me in identifying with Austen's heroines. Since Austen never really gets into the heads of her male characters, I find that, Mr. Bennet excepted, I identify with them only in the most superficial ways. But I often and occasionally deeply identify with the women, and not only the heroines. I've been reading MP of late, and I see some of Mary Crawford in myself -- the many times I've made an impromptu attempt at wit, only to find I've unintentionally insulted someone or betrayed a flaw in my character. Similarly, like Emma, I probably couldn't have resisted the remark at Box Hill, no matter how much I might regret it later. And as the oldest of three children, I resonate very much with the role Elinor assumes in S&S. Fanny, Marianne and Catherine trigger paternalistic feelings more than either identification or desire. As far as "wanting" them, unlike Knightly and Brandon, I prefer a more mature personality, which brings me to Elizabeth and Anne. Curiously enough, I simultaneously identify with _and_ desire them, especially Anne. With Elizabeth, I confess that erotic fantasies ultimately overcome identification. But Anne! I can totally immerse myself in Anne's character and personality and at the same time want her passionately. One moment I'm Ann, the next moment I'm Wentworth. There are passages in the book that make my heart pound audibly, and I found the recent film version among the most moving of my cinema experience, rivaled perhaps only by "The Piano." I'll reserve final judgment until I see ET's S&S again when it comes out on laserdisc next month, but my preliminary view is that "Persuasion" was the better adaptation and certainly the most underrated film of 1995. But alas the Austen character I most readily identify with, in age, station, temperament, etc. is Mr. Bennet. Substitute "Learning Resource Center" for "library," and you've got me pegged: "I shall be glad to have the LRC to myself as soon as may be." For in addition to books, I want my BBC Austen tapes (S&S, P&P, MP), my laserdiscs of Persuasion and P&P2 (S&S is on order), and of course, my computer, which gives me access to this digest, Henry Churchyards's indispensable web site (reason enough to buy a computer), and my Lotus Notes database of items from this list supplemented by fully indexed, searchable texts and of some of the novels -- P&P and S&S so far with plans to add the others this summer. In fact, my caro sposo (gag, I could never "want" Mrs. Elton) will be in town next week (yes, London), and dearest Eliza will take her place: I'll be spending several nights with a remote control in either hand comparing Elizabeth Garvey on tape with Jennifer Ehle on laserdisc, and with the real Lizzy in my lap as the exemplar and inspiration. Incidentally, my wife knows what I'm planning; at first she was offended that I'd consider such a thing in her absence, but I've promised to do it again when she returns. But Amy -- if you've read this far -- let me turn the tables on you. You mentioned identifying with Mr. Bennet, and I suspect most women want Mr. Darcy, but what other men in her books do you identify with? or want? or would mother? Doug Short Raleigh, NC

My favorite women. I'm going to have to think some more about this one. I still haven't made it to the final and third P&P tape. I'll let you know after I've digested some more of these tapes.

If we're discussing male attractions, then I've already revealed my personal preferences in chat... -- Lizzy Bennett, Anne Elliot Catherine Morland Marianne Dashwood Elinor Dashwood, Emma Woodhouse ..and with Fanny Price off to the side in a very special category that doesn't really fit on this scale. Some of the heroines I view more from the "inside" (I sympathize and identify with them somewhat), and some I view more from the "outside" (for example, I take a somewhat external, Henry-Tilney-eye view of Catherine Morland). Not sure I could explain it all as coherently as Doug...

Amy -- thank you for the post from Doug. He has described how I feel when I read the novels -- I am both the heroine and the hero, and I feel identification and desire at the same time. This works for P&P, Persuasion, and Emma, but less well for the other novels. This discussion has forced me to go back and start rereading the novels.

] This discussion has forced me to go back and start rereading the novels. __ Good, Kathleen. How long has it been. Be sure to tell us about how the books magically change for you and with you. I like that so much about Austen.

Anne Elliot's my favorite. Don't know just why. Thoughtful, generous to all. Much put upon by her pompous Whig aristo father, but has the power to stand up to him when she has to. Unimpressed by rank or wealth. To Anne a person's mind matters much more than titles or property. Despite being once persuaded by Lady R., against Capt. W., Anne Elliot's feelings were really very constant. What Wentworth could have seen in that Louisa Musgrove woman, I can't imagine. Compared to Anne Elliot, what could she be? As to the other issue--I don't think most men can identify with JA heroines, per se. We may admire them and their triumphs over the conventions of the time, but that's about it.

Carl, On the Austen-L, we are starting to read Persuasion together, very slowly, this week. If you aren't on the list and are interested, Henry Churchyard has all the information on his wonderful Jane Austen page. I, too, love Anne. It is interesting how Austen makes her initially faded and worn out, but then she blossoms again. The recent movie captured this well, I thought. Jane

Anne Elliot is the most mature of Austen's heroines -- in both years and emotions. She has a second opportunity to be a heroine in her life's novel; we only get to read the second of these. But this is another sign of her maturity, she takes these opportunities and does not blame others for her unhappiness. The other heroines either want to be in the wrong novel (Catherine Morland wants to be the heroine in a Gothic Romance, and Marianne Dashwood wants to be in a more conventional Romantic novel), write novels for other heroines (Emma for Harriet), or read other people's lives/novels (Lizzie and Fanny Price at times). I have come to see Anne as the best of the heroines, though not my favorite (that is Lizzie). Anne is kind, true, intelligent, and understanding. What a good friend she would make.

My favorite Austen heroine is, without a doubt, Elizabeth Bennet. No, I never identify with the heroine - that thought never occurred to me. Reading about Elizabeth brings to mind a women who is a combination of my wife and favorite daughter, both of whom are witty, saucy, lively, and very captivating. I can identify, from my own experience, with many incidents that occur to the hero, especially the initial blunder that Darcy made by slighting Lizzy at the Meryton assembly and the great effort he must ake to win Lizzy's good opinion of him. Most of all, when I read P&P, I take great pleasure in reading a romantic novel that holds my attention. To the best of my knowledge, I don't fantasize, I just enjoy Jane Austen's remarkable ability to tell a good story.

I totally agree about Anne...but you must give the younger heroines time to sort out their scatterbrains and grow up (esp. Emma...she has lots of potential, and is very wise in many respects)! ;)

Knightley would'nt love her otherwise...

Right-o, Johanne...and brownie points to Mr. Knightley for seeing it! ;)

After rereading Persuasion, I am making a rating adjustment of Austen heroines. On a scale of 1 to 10, I believe that Elizabeth rates a 10 and Anne a 9. Anne has a distinctly character from Lizzy, but she is a most fascinating young lady.

Say more, Donald. What, specifically do you find fascinating about Miss Anne Elliot?

[What, specifically do you find fascinating about Miss Anne Elliot?] I like her great inner strength of character; her ability to experience contentment in the midst of, which at the very least, are most difficult situations; her charming and pleasing manner; and most of all, her kindly nature which gives every indication that her married life with Captain Wentworth will be a model for wedded bliss. Incidently, as a former sailor myself, I also like Jane Austen's favorable portrayal of sailors in Persuasion.

Donald, you refer to Anne's "kindly nature." That is one thing that makes Mary's behavior all the more vexing. When she says, "It is too unkind." RRrrrrrr.

] Incidently, as a former sailor myself, I also like Jane Austen's favorable portrayal of sailors in Persuasion. were you in the navy Donald? was it for long? I too liked JA's treatment of the navy; she seems to think rather better of them than the traditional hierachy, both for their defence of their country and for their energy and initiative.

Sir Francis Austen-Jane Austen elder of the two distinguished sailor brothers Charles John Austen,they both became Admirals. It seems that Jane Austen brother Edward was adopted,buy his rich childless cousin Thomas Knight. He did become his only heir. I just like to know if this happen very often in the 18th century with many families?

Happened to Frank Churchill. Where o where did I see something about this -- maybe in an introduction to some edition of Emma?

Anna, you asked me: "...were you in the navy?; and the answer is yes. During some of my most impressionable years (19-21), I was in the navy. I resigned at 21, (we were not at war at the time), returned to college, and didn't stop until I earned a Ph. D. in physical-organic chemistry. This brief but happy experience left me very partial to the Navy. Incidently, I was aware of Jane Austen's two distinguished sailor-brothers. I have often wondered why she did not, in her novels, give more mention o Britain's great struggle against Napoleon; especially since her country's very life was hanging in the balance.

//Where o where did I see something about this // Also in comments to Mansfield Park I think, regarding the bringing up of Fanny and maybe even her sister Susan, though they were not formally adopted I guess.

] comments to Mansfield Park __ Yes, that's it. Thanks Ann2.

I read, I think in the Susan Watkins book Jane Austen In Style, that is was indeed common for childless families to adopt a relative who would then become the heir.

Perhaps the Bennets should have stopped after three girls and adopted a deserving young cousin.. but then they would not have cultivated Mr. Bingley's company so assiduously, never met Mr. Darcy...no, no, unthinkable!

I don't know that an adoption would work in the case of an entail. Mr. Collins probably would still get the estate.

Was the estate specifically entailed to Collins by the guy who left the estate to Mr. Bennet?

No, just the nearest male relative, who happened to be Mr. Collins.

Kali, as you will learn next fall (in MUCH more detail than you ever wanted!), an entail is not a specific transaction but a system of transferring property that continues perpetually. It is similar to the inheritance laws governing royalty--the property (land, title, income, whatever) passes to the eldest son of the current owner, and then to his eldest son, etc. Women are excluded from tails. The only way that an entail could be broken would be for the current owner and his heir (when h reached his majority) to agree to "break the tail." This is what Mr. Bennet had been planning to do; unfortunately he had no sons. What I don't understand is why, if the Bennet estate was entailed, was Mr. Collins's name not Bennet?

] a system of transferring property that continues perpetually My references specifically said it did not continue indefinitely; for 2 generations after the man who set it up (I don't know if that included him); it then elapsed, but was often renewed (much less so this century). Furthermore if the current owner and his heir agreed the entail could be dissolved, but the heir would have less to gain unless he was in immediate dire need of money, as the owner could then sell the property and/or leave it elswhere. I too am puzzled by the Colins/Bennet surname bit; maybe one or the other (or a non shared ancestor of either) changed his name for some reason? I don't think the name-change would affect the entail, but they should be of the same legitamite male line.

Like most of you, my favorite Austen heroine is Lizzy, "the most delightful creature ever to appear in print." I admire her loyalty to Jane, wit, energy, and vivacity and even identify with her(and Mr Bennett's) propensity to make sport of their neighbours. As for the best drawn Austen heroine, I agree that Anne is the best drawn, mature character. But, I would still make a strong case for Emma. All of those wonderful pages at the end where she realizes the follies of her matchmaking and her deep love for Knightley. With respect to the Austen character with whom I most identify: I think I was born a Marianne;(those younger, more vulnerable years) became an Elinor during those dreadful high school years:and now I think I identify most with Emma. I fear that i'm easily blinded. And, hey-I'm even letting my hair grow out and practicing GP inspired hairstyles in the mirror! Seriously, though, I think the wonderful thing about Austen is that we are all in one way or another composites of her characters.

And, hey-I'm even letting my hair grow out and practicing GP inspired hairstyles in the mirror! You too? ;) I have a whole collection of cool hair ribbons... Seriously, though, I think the wonderful thing about Austen is that we are all in one way or another composites of her characters. I agree with you...somewhere on this board I wrote something similar...in response to somebody else saying that she wanted to be like Lizzy...

#51 I'm glad to see someone else making a vote for Emma. I've always found her to be delightfully irresistible, and much more real for me than Anne. Yes, I love Lizzy, too!

Susan-I'm delighted to find another Emma admirer. I agree too about Anne. I never really understood why she (so madly in love with Wentworth) could be persuaded By Lady Russell not to marry him. Still, it made for a gripping story and the proposal letter-I loved. And Kali-This is getting too spooky! I have some nice ribbons as well, and barrettes. Plus, I search stores for Emma-inspired clothes. My parents are beginning to think I'm mad.

Chalk me up as another Emma Woodhouse fan. She's always been my favorite Austen heroine. Much as I like Lizzy, I've never been able to identify with her--she seems too perfect. Emma's lovable because she's as mixed up as most people. She has all the right feelings; her problem is in learning to govern her behavior. How lucky that she had Mr. Knightly. I've always adored him--he's the only fictional character I've ever fallen in love with.

Anne-I think we are a steady and growing group of Emma fans. Besides the Age of Innocence(although I adore P&P), Emma is the only book that I read in one sitting. I think I stayed up till 3 in the morning to finish it. I am completely charmed and captivated by all the characters: Emma, the Westons, Miss Bates, and of course Mr Knightley. Wouldn't we all love to have Knightley in our corner? I am completely smitten with him.

Yes, yes, YES! And, once again, where were you when I was trying to make my case over on the Happiest Couple thread? Emma and George share the same level in society, the same family and friends, and a most thorough knowledge of each other. I've neve seen Mr. Knightley as lecturing her, rather than as helping her to see herself when she can't. I, too, loved this book so much and reread it every few years. Even though I love P & P, I've only read it once.

Susan, I agree that no one could be happier than Emma and Mr. Knightley. I contend, however, that some of the other couples could be just as happy in their own way (though I would be happiest in Emma's shoes, myself). Everyone knows that I love Emma, and identify with her more than any other Austen heroine. I'd like to think that there is a lot of Lizzy in me as well, but alas, she is too perfect! Cassandra, I'm getting a dress made...I'm just as over-the-edge as you are, if not more so...;)

I'm getting a dress made// Did you find that regency clothing firm, Kali? And pray tell... What colour will your dress be? Pink and white striped? You asked a question on Emma clothings and I cannot answer till I've seen the film again...

The archery scene...the pink/stripy dress...I'm thinking either pink or blue...who knows? I'm still gathering leads...Myretta found me someone who may be able to help... ;)

#58 Some of the other couples could be just as happy in their own way. I AW. I just think Knightley and Emma get short shrift because of Elizabeth and Darcy. Thanks for understanding!

I love Emma and Knightley. I AM Emma. And some day I plan to meet and marry Mr. Knightley. Yeah, I'm crazy...;)

I cannot be so swayed by such a person;-) You have not convinced me that you are Emma,crazy yes, Emma no.You are not CLUELESS.

I'm the happy owner of a wonderful little book (rather big though) titled : Patterns of Fashion, Englishwomen's dresses and their construction, c. 1660-1860 and c. 1860-1940, author Jane Arnold (another Jane, what a coincidence, ;) ) In it is various drawings and patterns of Englishwomen's dresses taken from original specimens with details showing their construction, for exemple : 1795-1903 a robe from the Victoria and Albert Museum in cream silk with a raised diamond pattern and decorated with tan-colored, looped-cord braid and satin 1795-1810 a riding habit (jacket and skirt with bodice) from the Salisbury Museum in pale blue worsted wollen cloth 1798-1805 a morning dress from the Salisbury Museum in white cotton with a small regular geometric pattern printed in dark purple 1806-1809 a frock from the Victoria and Albert Museum in white muslin emboided with stylised flowers in thick white cotton and silver thead 1800-1825 two chemisettes from Snowhill Manor - one white cambric chemisette with a treble mushroom-pleated frill at the neck; - one white lawn chemisette with a finely tucked front and a double mushroom-pleated frill at the neck 1818-1823 a pelisse from the Gloucester Museum in deep blue ribbed silk decorated with satin piping in a matching shade of blue, lined throughout with fine white silk, to be worn over a dress for outdoor wear So, anybody interested in receiving a copy of these wonderful and original patterns, do not hesitate to e-mail me.

Thanks, Donna...but you might be surprised at how clueless I really am...;)

Susan-Count me in. I too think Emma and KNightley were destined for marital bliss. They both know each other and come from the same background. Plus, he's madly in love with her-riding through the rain to see his beloved Emma, faultless despite her faults. However, I could make the same case for Darcy and Elizabeth and even Anne and Frederick. Dear JA-she gave us all hope for the perfect union. Kali-the dress sounds fabulous. I love that scene/dress. I found this coat, complete with a hood, in a vintage clothing shop that reminds me of the one GP wore in Frank Churchill gossip scene, with Miss Bates.(she's trying to get a word in). What did you think of Clueless, anyways. I was prepared to hate it, but ended up enjoying it!

It was cute, but as I said before, it lost something in the translation for me.

Like I said, I surprised myself and enjoyed it, but on its own merits. The slim(and I do mean slim) Emma parallels never made an impact on me. And Besides our dear Emma Woodhouse as a Valley Girl-The Horror! the Horror!

Cass..."slim Emma parallels?" That's one of the things I enjoyed most about the movie. When they were talking about the missing cool kid in class who spends time with parents at different times I said "Frank Churchill!" And Mr Martin as an "undesirable" skateboarder, etc. It was fun to find the parallels!

I had a problem with the Valley Girl thing, too. I thought Emma's situation was so much more than a teenage soap...she's older, and wiser, than that. Hard to believe, I know, but true...

Parody, ladies; satire! I think JA would have appreciated the irony. I loved the Emma parallels and basically, Cher grew up over the course of the show just like Emma did. But of course my heart has and always will love Emma best.

Cheryl-about the Emma parallels-The only one that really struck me was when the Josh character(and I will always refer to him as that) rescues Cher's Harrietesque friend at the dance. And of course Cher's teacher matchmaking and eventual realization that she's clueless-she loves Josh. Maybe I'm begining to lose my sense of humour or becoming too much of an Austen purist, but I never saw the film for once as Emma.(although I must admit I secretly enjoyed the spin on Frank Churchill-Christian, Cher's gay f iend) I agree with Kali-Emma was much more of a substantial, complex person than Cher and her growth throughout the novel and realization of her deep love for KNightley(the E/K union-one of the most heartfelt, endearing romances in all of literature) are much more realistic-a testament to our dear JA's talent.(I identify wih Emma, never Cher. Clueless often reminded me of an episode of Beverley Hills 90210) But, after saying all of that-I did enjoy the movie. But on its own merits. Great soundtrack and it reminded me more of those 80s films I grew up on-Pretty and Pink, Sixteen candles.....

I don't think that Amy Heckerling ever intended for Clueless to be seen simply as a retelling of Emma. I'm sure that of the millions of teenagers who flocked to see the movie, maybe one percent of them, tops, had read the novel. I think she borrowed the plot because it's a good story. The Austen parallels were just a bonus to those of us who could recognize them.

Anne's right. That's why we're not duty-bound to even try to like it. ;)