Clueless

Oh, I must defend Clueless! I absolutely loved the movie! I thought it took Austen's central moral concerns and presented them in a contemporary setting so as to show that the problems we have, and decisions we make, are essentially the same, in any era. I'm not sure, Lilian, what it is that displeased you about the characters. Was it their sexual awareness? Their trivial interests (malls, dances, popularity)? Austen's girls were mostly just as silly. They're young, remember. I thought that Alicia Silverstone's character began to grow up as the movie progressed, and that she showed the same moral honesty as Emma Woodhouse, and had an even kinder heart. Yes, it's true that we're a long way from Regency England in terms of manners and elegance (*sigh*), but the beauty of Austen's novels is that they're as true now as they were 200 years ago. And that, I think, is what Clueless was trying to show us.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/clueless.html

I agree with Anne's defense of Clueless. The Austen themes came through loud and clear, despite the modern setting! Lilian, I agree that the manners and civility of Austen's time seem idyllic compared to our mannerless society. It helps me to remember that that time wasn't without its serious defects. They hanged children for stealing food to eat, illiteracy was the norm, and women were basically property of their husbands. I guess I can live without someone bowing over my hand, all things considered!

Loved Clueless - I thought part of its charm is that it captured both part of the spirit of today's youth culture and JA plot. The movie was a box-office success in its own right. those of us who watched it for its JA connection are a very small minority.

Henry - your Web page about the Clueless/JA connection was one of the first JA items I found on the Web.

]how trashy some female teenagers are. and were; consider a certain Miss Lydia Bennet, also Lucy Steele, the Bertram girls, to name but a few. I don't think human nature has changed much since our ancestors left the trees; the trappings change, not the people.

Here..here! I also enjoyed Clueless but had not heard the connection with JA...interesting....

Enjoyed Clueless very very much indeed. An updated refreshing twist to what nature has been since the beginning of times. Technologies changes but not humans. Same old problems : girl meets boy, boy meets girl, boy slights girl, girl resent boy (or in this case doesnt now his there), boy intrigue by girl, boy wants girl (and sometime realize he made a fool of himself in the meantime[is this getting back at the other sex, but I like that part], girl realize boy not that bad, girl want boy, etc.... and som where at the end, they live happily ever after. Our attitudes and some rules might differ but the same urges compels us toward to each others and so are certain values like pride and vanity. No mather how you slice it, the Cinderella story still is very appealing to us 90's woman.

OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK Hey, I enjoyed "Clueless" as well but I sometimes find females a little aggravating (be it this century or last). Now don't all jump at me because I am a female and what's more, I am young - the age dear Lizzie was when she met Darcy. "Clueless" was just at a very different angle and since I am still in the era of seeing "P&P2", "Emma", "Anne of Green Gables" etc... and then seeing this, I guess it was a shock to my system. :)

OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK Hey, I enjoyed "Clueless" as well but I sometimes find females a little aggravating (be it this century or last). Now don't all jump at me because I am a female and what's more, I am young - the age dear Lizzie was when she met Darcy. "Clueless" was just at a very different angle and since I am still in the era of seeing "P&P2", "Emma", "Anne of Green Gables" etc... and then seeing this, I guess it was a shock to my system. :) Lilian

Women suck sometimes, Lilian. Young women can be very silly, and sometimes very mean and spiteful. Especially when they gang up against some chosen or arbitrary victim (it seems not to matter!) and tear them to pieces like the maenads tearing apart a goat. Even one-on-one, it's oftentimes this territorial cat-hissing dance. I try not to participate. I'm also young...one-and-twenty...not very much older than you are. Like you, I was not terribly impressed with Clueless. Something was lost in the translation for me.

I enjoy a little territorial cat-hissing every now and then, but draw the line with maenads tearing apart a goat. What outstanding visuals!

We are animals.

I enjoy a little territorial cat-hissing every now and then We are animals. Mmmrrrooowwww! FFFFTTTTTTT!!!

Lilian, I am glad that you finally made it to the austen conference here at The Spring. BTW everyone Lilian is back! :-)

I saw clueless and enjoyed it very much (that Josh is very very cute...) Lilian, I'm also young (20) and share your opinion about young females nowadays. it seems that a lot of women today lack the elegance that 18th century women possess. I often find myself thinking how perfectly I'm fitting to Jane Austen's world, and how nice it would be to live in that era.

Adi: See the above posting regarding the realities of that era.

Lillian ] "Clueless" was just at a very different angle ... and then seeing this, I guess it was a shock to my system. Hi Lillian, first of all hullo, I too am from Aus but arrived after you stopped posting. I agree with your take on the trappings of modern society; I don't think human nature has changed but those who wish to indulge a taste for vulgarity have more scope these days; Lycra was only invented about 20 years ago ;-) Kali ] Young women can be very silly, and sometimes very mean and spiteful. Especially when they gang up against some chosen or arbitrary victim fair go for all! I agree with you Kali, but let us not forget that men, especially when young, and especially in groups are also capable of both silly and nasty behaviour; more macho/tough than their sisters, but also not appealing. At the risk of seeming nerdishly earnest, I reckon the sexes are pretty much equal in virtues and vices. Fortunately there is usually an improvement with age, unfortunately a deterioration with numbers. There is good and bad in most people, but I can't think of anything go d about a mob. Adi ] a lot of women today lack the elegance that 18th century women possess. I often find myself thinking how perfectly I'm fitting to Jane Austen's world, and how nice it would be to live in that era. both the men and women showed a restraint that I reckon would be a decoration to most people today. Pop psychology often says we should 'let it all hang out' and not repress our emotions; myself I agree with the quote (made here previously by ? Cheryl) from 'The African Queen'; Nature is what we are here to rise above. BUT (warning; nasty, boring reality intrusion) Life in the regency, and for most of human history was only elegant for the select few on the top of the heap. For most it was hard, often brutish and short. Furthermore the primitive medicine, plumbing and roads (to name but a few) were such that life away from the drawing rooms was ofter fairly inelegant even for the aristos.

That I can take a hot shower every morning keeps ME firmly rooted in this century. And as far as eligance of behavior, I don't see a great deal of evidence of that in the Regency period. There are not many of Austen's characters that do not demonstrate shallowness, pettiness, as well as a lack of compassion, genuine friendship, and love.

Anna: having spent three years living in an all-female organization/group living enviroment (one of which I served as internal relations chair), I can safely say that A) many young women are psychotic, and B) macho is NOTHING to estrogen-enhanced insanity. No joke! Maybe the woman who wrote "Reviving Ophelia" had something going when she said that society allows girls to mess themselves up. Either that, or girls have a natural tendency towards irrationality. Hormones?

]girls have a natural tendency towards irrationality Strong Disagreement! Kali, I know some young women can be so silly and nasty they approach the psychotic, and that it gets much worse in groups, but I don't agree that it's invariable or inevitable, nor that women are inherently worse than men. Have you ever discussed the dynamics of a long-term closed adolescent male group with a close male friend? For both sexes some groups are worse than others, depending on the individuals involved. Comparing my own experience with that of my brothers (we were all at single sex schools for some years), and those unrelated male friends with whom I've discussed it, the females tend to be more 'cliquey', more passive-aggressive, but physical violence and risk-taking is more common and of greater extent in the males. There's alot of overlap between the groups though. It sounds like your experiences with female only groups have been alot worse than mine, but you may be generalising too much as a result; group 'insanity' is not inevitable, and no more likely in females than males, it just takes different forms. In my opinion neither sex is at it's best solo, most especially not in large groups. ]society allows girls to mess themselves up I do think it's worse in adolescence, partly because of society's expectations and partly because of the hormonal changes; that gets both sexes too. Society allows, almost expects young women to be silly/fluffy and bitchy; it also allows and expects young men to take silly physical risks, and to be more physically violent. The sort of behaviour we're talking about may be more common nowadays, because more people have the leisure and resources to do indulge in it, but we should also remember that any book, no matter how well written can only show us a partial view of society, and Jane Austen certainly chose to focus on the more mannered aspects of hers.

Have you ever discussed the dynamics of a long-term closed adolescent male group with a close male friend? Yeah, And I read Lord of the Flies...

Kali, you turn some memorable phrases...I loved "territorial cat hissing" and "maenads tearing apart a goat", but "estrogen-enhanced insanity" is priceless.

Kali, don't you think that if the women on this BB went to summer camp with each other, leaving behind both our dear men from the BB and all the other dear men we know, we would all have a hilarious and civilized time? Definitely no goat-tearing.

Jane: Definitely no goat-tearing. Should I cancel the goat I've ordered for our February tea?

LOL, Myretta. No, leave the order in. And break me offa hunkov it, wouldya?

And break me offa hunkov it, wouldya? It's not proper to engage in proxy-maenadism, Amy. You simply must be there to do it yourself! Lady Catherine would be soooo disappointed in you, young lady! Jane: As of now, I have no reason to suspect that any of us are psycho, but with the internet as it is, i could be wrong...to appreciate Jane Austen, I think, one must be relatively clearthinking. Elaine: Thanks. I'm glad I'm entertaining you. After all, it is my ambition in life to be a clown for others' enjoyment.

LOL - LOL - mercy on us. poor goats. I rather like girls and boys - and tend to blame society for every fault either group can be said to have. Boys need group acceptance in order to survive. Girls need absolute loyalty. Alpha males have to defend their position. Alpha females have to groom through their entourage. And PMS is our competitive edge - we just need to harness it. (ever been in a meeting with more than one alpha male - I swear, you want to hand them rulers and tell them to whip it out and measure it so we can get back to the agenda!!)

Katy: (ever been in a meeting with more than one alpha male - I swear, you want to hand them rulers and tell them to whip it out and measure it so we can get back to the agenda!!) Omigod! LOL! ;-)

]to whip it out and measure it ]Omigod! LOL! ;-)

EEEEWWWWW!

Katy!LOL: That was spot on. I've felt that urge to just get them out of everybodies way. To some game-cock's arena.

Katy ]- I swear, you want to hand them rulers and tell them to whip it out and measure it ROFL!!!!! Ann2 ] To some game-cock's arena. a happy thought indeed!

kendall, that is too perfect. I'm going to remember that during my next business meeting... LOVED Clueless. It was so fun watching for Emma parallels. And yes, Josh is pretty darn cute.

So true, katy, so true!!!

Kali, don't you think that if the women on this BB went to summer camp with each other, leavingbehind both our dear men from the BB and all the other dear men we know, we would all have a hilarious and civilized time? Definitely no goat-tearing. A thought to ponder. What camp activities did you have in mind,Jane?

One could use Whip It Out as a camping icebreaker, but it might be more amenable as a relay.

A thought to ponder. What camp activities did you have in mind,Jane? Well, I seem to remember campfires and sing-a-longs, and...um, making out behind the boathouse...but if we're not taking the men in our lives, who, prey tell, would we invite to make out with? Guess that would kind of defeat the purpose of the camp, eh?

Hi Lillian, first of all hullo, I too am from Aus but arrived after you stopped posting. I agree with your take on the trappings of modern society; I don't think human nature has changed but those who wish to indulge a taste for vulgarity have more scope these days; Lycra was only invented about 20 years ago ;-) Hello there, Sorry about the delay...I keep on going back to the old PPBB and then get lost reading their messages and well.... So, which part of Oz are you from? Are you from a big city like um, Newcastle...hahaha (sorry Gav - couldn't help myself!). I didn't mean to start all these threads about Clueless.. I just wanted to point out that young females can be such a strange creature. I mean, I just feel so sorry for blokes today because they can get very confused as to what a young lady actually wants. (And) I find that in general, females have pretty wide mood swings.

'I just feel so sorry for blokes today because they can get very confused as to what a young lady actually wants. (And) I find that in general, females have pretty wide mood swings." Lilian, I completely agree with you.

You guys aren't among the number of "those young ladies who seek to recommend themselves to the other sex", are you? "In my opinion it is a paltry device, a very mean art." ;-) ;-)

No art involved here, H...Forgive me for being unsisterly, but many young ladies are clinically insane. And that's the truth, said Edith Ann.

'I just feel so sorry for blokes today because they can get very confused as to what a young lady actually wants. (And) I find that in general, females have pretty wide mood swings." I hate to be hard on some of our sex but lot's of time "wimmin" are confused themselves, society's pressure can be a burden in times of weakness, so go figure (outside of obvious differences) how can those two sexes can ever communicate efficiently.

Schwing???

Elain, ever party-ed with Wayne and Garth if not : http://uk.imdb.com/cache/title-exact/95302 http://www.insa-lyon.fr/People/AEDI/mroussel/megateuf.html And if you care to listen to it, click on babe.wav at this link : http://www.moviesounds.com/waynesw.html

Lillian ] Are you from a big city like um, Newcastle...hahaha (sorry Gav - couldn't help myself!). well, as a matter of fact, yes: I am currently resident in Newcastle :-) I was born in Melbourne however and have been slwoly migrating North ever since...

" ... but many young ladies are clinically insane. ... " NO, no, no!!! A hundred times no. Women more confused than men today? Women subject to greater mood swings. Women less likely to know what they want? No, no, no! What do I know of young women and young men any way? I feel sorry for them all. But the power still belongs more to the male than the female - and therefore the female is needs to play a closer hand. Ex-wives and girlfriends do not beat, rape and murder their ex's with the same regularity that ex-husbands and boyfriends attack their ex's. There are more dead-beat dads than dead-beat moms. More women cut back their careers for parenthood than men. The only way in which young women are more confused than young men is that, because there are so many restrictions on what women can realistically expect and what they can safely do (Be all that you can be in the Army? But if you are female, better learn karate before you enlist!!), they spend more years figuring which compromises are necessary and which can be avoided!

So let's pray our sex instead of beating down on it. Don't we have a tendencies to disregard our own, putting it down, is this the fast paced/new competitiveness of the 20-21st century ? I do feel sad whenever another woman is generalizing and putting us down. What is it with us anyway ? you sure don't see man behaving this way...

Amen, Johanne!!!

I'm of the Dr. Laura Schlessinger school of psychology...women - especially young women - need to take control of themselves. So many of them don't. They do stupid, destructive, irrational things to themselves and others. I don't mean simple, honest, naive mistakes. I've seen so many girls take themselves down before anyone else can screw them up and over. It's too easy to blame PMS, male chauvenism, and parents, though I'm not discounting the fact that these can be problems. And I'm not generalizin . I said MANY...not ALL...not even MOST...but more than is excusable. Some will grow out of it. But some won't. And that's depressing.

Among the young people I know (15-25), the young men seem as likely to be drifting as the young women. Maybe it I were in a university environment, I would be seeing differences but in my personal world - It takes a 3.5 average in a five-year comp sci. program to even get a job where I work so the young people are all pretty much motivated. In my own personal little world, I am seeing a cross-section of generation-x.

Oh Kali, you're a Dr. Laura fan too? My friends are so surprised that I enjoy her show - our politics are so different - but her advice is spot on and you just have to laugh at some of her callers... You'll get some guy calling saying he's married with 3 kids and is having an affair - and you just go "Oh, this is gonna be fun - Is this guy a masochist to call or what?!"

I understand, Katy...I'm going from the people I grew up with...which is definitely a cross-section of many socioeconomic strata, as well as the people I have known and observed here at Cal and through general acquaintance elsewhere. Most of us are not quite Generation X. The kids I knew from stockton are statistically more pathetic than those I have met in college (high percentages of teen pregancy, for example, among intelligent girls with good grades and devoted parents), but the psychos here in Berk ley are first-class. Since there are so many of us here, the extremes are extreme. And when I say psycho, I mean it. For example, I saw a group of disgruntled girls try to stress a middle-aged woman out to the point that she would miscarry in her last possible attempt to have a child...and succeed. But for every nutcase here, there are five 4.0's who are going to med school or law school. Drifting is one thing...lots of people do it, because they know not how to proceed in life. It's the near-deliberate insipidity and/or cruelty which bothers me. It's just not necessary.

Totally, Kaff...some of these callers really ask for it. They know what she's gonna say, so why do they do it anyway?

Should I consider than myself happy not to know this Dr. Laura Hope to keep this view under good regulation

I don't remember where this thread started, but so many women I know are great. We take care of each other, and the age of E-mail has made it even easier to exchange quick messages of help and support when needed on both a professional and personal level. Men can be great, too, but I don't in general depend on them for the kind of commiseration about balance of priorities (work and family), career issues, etc. I think being in late teens/early twenties is hard for men and women, and take heart, Kali, a lot of stuff gets straightened out with time and learning. Then there are other interesting issues to work on. I am not sure what my "inspirational message of the day" is apropos of, but that's one beauty of this place.

re: 47, 48; Bravo Katy and Johanne re: 20, 42, 52; Kali, in your earlier post I thought you were saying all young women are stupid and/or insane; this surprised me coming from a young woman who seems both intelligent and sane, I'm glad I misunderstood you. I don't agree with the many but I've certainly come across some breathtaking examples of destructive behaviour in women, many of them young. As my upbringing was fairly sheltered, most such encounters have occured while I was working, mostly in emergency receiving or in forensics. It's work experience that leads me to say that (young) men can be just as destructive as (young) women; in fact, looking at physical damage, usually more so. Although there will always be a few individuals in whom the problem is innate, I agree with those who think that a great deal of the problem arises from (sub) cultural/socialisation issues. On the whole (and I dislike generalisations, but cannot avoid them here), women tend to be more socially and self-destructive, men more phsically and other destructive, but there are so many overlaps one cannot predict any individual case. Things have improved greatly since the regency, but women dostill have very limited range of choices in many societies today; many men also face a very limited and depressing future. Conversely, I have also seen people show great courage, fellowship and support for each other. Neither sex has a monopoly on the good, the bad nor the indifferent. I don't know whether it's nature or nurture, but most women do seem to be better than most men at expressing concern and supporting each other. I have wondered if that's why this group has hung together; many women's friendships are based on talking not doing, so it doesn't matter that we're not together physically. As an irrelevant aside; there is a large research interest in both placental physiology and genetics at my institution, I'm not directly involved in either, and could be out of date. It doesn't excuse an attempt to do it, but to the best of my understanding neither emotional nor intellectual stress has been shown to increase the risk of miscarriage. Placental diseases apart it takes fairly extreme physical stress to do so.

Honestly, I agree with K's point about female's insanity to a certain extent, but I am surrounded by great role models for our sex, that it is hard to think otherwise. Most of my girlfriends are: strong, determined, have goals, know what they want in their life, intelligent, confidant, mature, loving, and basically, have just as much balls in any man. In this point in my life, I have basically the upmost respect for my sex!

'I'm of the Dr. Laura Schlessinger school of psychology...women - especially young women - need to take control of themselves. So many of them don't. They do stupid, destructive, irrational things to themselves and others. ...And that's depressing.' All I can say to this is that if this is the way one chooses to view the world, women in particular, then no wonder it is depressing. I know that I can't control things others do, but I can control how I view it, whether or not it has any effect on me, and how I deal with it. I can even allow women all these 'stupid, destructive, irrational things' they do because they are just struggling or growing - as men do, too. I cannot even consider it a bad thing, and I certainly do not believe it to be something new to our era just because the challenges are different. We all do this life thing differently and at a difference pace. So it cannot be any great suprise that we are all at a difference place at any given time. I personally am not acquainted with these 'insane' women; but then, I would have never allowed myself to remain in a situation long enough to have developed such a view of them as to bring such a degree of dissatisfaction to myself. Furthur, I try to avoid even getting caught up in the worry, or judgement, of these people because just that, too, can keep me anchored in a mind-set that could blind me to the situations and opportunities I truly desire. For instance, any woman who is not 'insane', ' athetic', 'disgruntled', etc., the woman I want to know, will instinctively never open herself up to such a place of discontent. But, if this is the place I happen to be at the moment, she will pass me by. (She has passed this place already, if she has ever been there at all.) On the other hand, if have move forward to the same place she is seeking, she will find me. This is because it is absolutely true that we give off 'vibes' that other people sense and respond to. I know it to be tr e that I can change those 'vibes' by changing my attitude, then in turn, change the interaction with others. (Believe me. I learned this the hard way.) So Kali, I would just move on past the 'clinically insane' and the things they have done. All of your encounters with with these people you speak of are just a memory, anyway. How you carry it forward is your choice. Even their cruelty is your opportunity to make better of it - it just comes done to your outlook. Just like Jane views things, "a lot of stuff gets straightened out with time and learning" - this will be the truth for her because this is what she opens herself up to.

As far as Dr. Laura, I would be happy to know her. She has a well-balanced view of relationship issues, and, as a woman, understands the pitfalls of female existence. The bottom line in many cases is personal responsiblity and self-respect. I would suggest to anyone her book, Ten Stupid Things Women do to Mess up Their Lives. She gives excellent advice. She maintains that both men and women need to accord eachother the respect they deserve. As Kaff alluded to above, she is very quick t defend a woman in her significant other is being a jerk. She has common sense that no one can argue with. Once again, I am NOT bashing women. I am disappointed in some of their tendencies.

Sharon, I left that environment. I ran screaming. Believe me. The wicked irony of the situation was that I was duty bound by bonds of "sisterhood" to stay until I couldn't take it anymore. It was my job to deal with these people and purge them from our membership. Then I got alum status and left. Believe me, I am not so insensible as to intentionally place myself in bad situations like that.

Anna : women tend to be more socially and self-destructive, men more phsically and other destructive, but there are so many overlaps one cannot predict any individual case May I return the favor, BRAVA, your whole comment is quite inspiring Rebecca : have just as much balls in any man. Can not believe the achievement/end of womanhood resides in becoming like a man. And nobody is obliged to be anything, like Sharon said you do your thing, they do their, and to each our own Karma, but Karma are entermingled and bad vibs atract bad vibs, thus increase tenfold contaminating like web, and it's no way to heal a sick world (did it make any sense?)

Kali and Becks and Sharon and all who have taken up arms on this subject. As the mother of a teen age girl - I see that teen girls can be cruel. I know when my daughter is on the receiving of cruelty and am too realistic to hope that she never dishes any out - although I know that she doesn't see it that way when she is the disser instead of the dissed. But, as the mother of a teenage girl and the aunt of several teenage boys and former teenage boys, I cannot believe that females at any age are more prone to insanity or cruelty than males. I will not expose my loved ones or acquaintances with examples from my memories. And, Kali, your story about the middle-age woman's miscarriage brings tears to my eyes - that is indeed cruelty! I do think young women still pay a higher price for failure to plan and general 'screwing up', and on that grounds, can identify with your concern for your friends who are not making solid plans.

'Sharon, I left the environment..' Kali, what I was trying to say is, that you seem to have NOT left it. As long as you look back on it with a view of it being a terrible experience of no redeeming value and have bad feelings about it, you haven't left there. Now I do not mean for this to come across personal in anyway by using the word 'you'. I am just trying to make the point that ANY of us that approach a new axperience carrying old, crippling attitudes will encounter just another negative experience - over and over and over again. I you (we) walk out of the house in the morning with 'young women today are out of control', 'teenagers are cruel', 'many women I encounter don't know what they want', 'women are self-destructive' in you head, THAT is what you will see that day. And you will ALWAYS be disappointed because you mentally are caught up in what you are projecting as other peoples short comings. I don't think any of us has a right to be disappointed in the tendencies of others? Do we? What is your claim on their actions? Wh t is your responsibility? Did you fail to act? Is it yourself who you are disappointed in? Can you forgive yourself? Can you forgive them? Someone please explain to me how all of this lableing itself is helpful - particularly with respect to women? 'Many young women are out of control.' You hear often enough and young women could begin to buy into it. Certainly young men will. Is that what we want to happen? But how has it helped to bring the opposite into effect? What is the gratification or value in projecting tendencies of any kind on to any group of people? (And I don't want to hear 'that is just the way it is', because that is a c p out.)

Sharon, all of this ended very recently. I have witnessed some very bad things, and met some very bad people. I have learned form the experience. I can now spot an unstable personality from a mile away. I can deal with that. It's reality. My problem is with the fact that so much stuff like this happened in a rather short period of time, and should have been none of my business. The nature of my situation, however, made it my business. So I had to deal with it. The experience is always going to be there. I can't wipe it away. Could you? You're gonna be bruised for a little while after reality has punched you in the face. I don't leave the house everyday immediately judging everyone I meet nor making broad generalizations of every group I have contact with. Few people do. However, experience has allowed me to recognize and understand destructive behavior when I see it. This isn't "gratification" or "rationalization." It's called learning how to be realistic. How can you function in the world if you don't understand what's out there? If young people "buy in" to a "label," I think the problem lies in them and their parents (if such forceful and overarching labels actually do pervade the lives of young people - to be honest, high school and college-age people aren't thinking of labels or society or anything else, for that matter...they're too busy dealing with kindergarten politics). Blaming "society" isn't going to provide a solution, anyway - it just riles up the media and gives young people an excuse to be mediocre. And sympathy i n't going to rid mankind of its problems. We need to be pragmatic. Generalizations and labels don't spring from thin air...there's always something to it. In essence, if the tendency isn't there already, it ain't gonna happen no matter what people say. A bunch of sociologists didn't sit around a big table one day and say, "hey, let's create teenage angst!" The fact is, teenagers ARE cruel (for example). Some are just more so, more often, than others. Lots of the games kids play revolve around back-stabbing, gossip, and boyfriend/girlfriend-stealing. The only peopl who can really make a difference are the kids themselves, and the people who raise them. Kids and parents need to learn how to get beyond the stage. But the problem isn't going to go away. Society's gripes about kids, life, and the world in general are continually changing, but the general problems seem to be the same. I think it's just human nature. In other words, that's just the way it is. Sorry. It's true. Blame Pandora - or Eve. As for myself, I'm sick of dealing with other people's ridiculousness. I hope I'll never have to do it again. And on a related note, I'm sick of being the target of small, jealous little twits who envy my success. It's hard to be sisterly when a quarter of the women you meet look you up and down and then fortify themselves for territorial combat. I don't bite...and I believe that there is plenty of room for many pretty, successful gals out there. Oh...and I should say that none of this applies to any ne here. ;)

As for myself, I'm sick of dealing with other people's ridiculousness. I hope I'll never have to do it again. And on a related note, I'm sick of being the target of small, jealous little twits who envy my success. It's hard to be sisterly when a quarter of the women you meet look you up and down and then fortify themselves for territorial combat. I don't bite...and I believe that there is plenty of room for many pretty, successful gals out there. Oh...and I should say that none of this applies to any ne here. ;) That's my girl! I'm afraid, though, that you will always encounter the ridiculous, the envious and the petty out there. But you don't have to take them home.

" ... I'm sick of being the target of small, jealous little twits ... " Kali - it's lonely at the top. This may seem like a weak comparison to you - but my fav teen - who is working hard to fulfill her life-long ambition to be a (gasp) cheerleader (??!!) - is encountering it everyday. It is part of the price you pay for striving to be outstanding and visible. So you got your honors diploma and your acceptance to law school. A few more months and you are out of there. AT law school you will find lots of girls as hard-working and determined and smart as you are, and you can all snicker together over the foolish, jealous little twits you left behind. One day, you can hire one of those twits as a clerical assistant! AT my first professional job, programming in a small town in the early 70's, one of the key-punch operators told me that her husband told her that he would never date a girl like me. This young woman was living in a trailer and working at one of the worst jobs ever invented. I resisted the urge to tell her not to worry - that I did not date married men - and was not interested in living in a trailer. I smiled sweetly and told her I was happy for her. Tolerate these poor little lambs, dear Kali. They will be eating your dust in the very near future.

Some of us might be living in trailer and be clerical assistant, obtuseness and simplicity are not necessarely the epithets of a low social standing...

'That's my girl! I'm afraid, though, that you will always encounter the ridiculous, the envious and the petty out there. But you don't have to take them home.' Okay, Kali, but Marietta here is a little closer to place I am coming from. if tendency isn't there already, it ain't gonna happen no matter what people say This is on one point that we should just agree to disagree. Stronger wills and opinions will always influence a weaker. I don't leave the house everyday immediately judging everyone I meet nor making broad generalizations of every group I have contact with. Few people do Now, if this were true, we would never hear words like 'many young women today are out of control', teenagers ARE cruel', 'black people are less intelligent', 'Native Americans are drunks', etc. Every single bit of this begins at the individual level. It is a reflection of HOW individuals have A) chosen to see the reality and B) function/react/not react in the world. And some of these kind of realities have come about, I believe, out of pragmatism - 'I chose to see this as the way it is, here is nothing I can or will do about it, and I will communicate this experience to others who share this opinion'. And that 'sympathy isn't going to rid mankind of its problems', well it is a great place to start for mankind, but in truth it DOES rid each US, individually, of our problems, just as compassion, kindness and love - simply because when we can view any situation in these terms, it is not such a problem in that you come into it, dwell in it, and come away from it with peace of mind. Let me share a game we play here with our kids. When the first played in in college it was called Attutude Check, I modified it to Happy Smilely Heart when the first one went to kindergarten, and after a tragedy early this year it is now called Count The Blessings. The object of course is a change of attutude, then with your new, happy, smiley heart, find something good - being sorry, something you did right, a new idea, a new 'tool', a solution, something different to do tomorrow, etc. It is easy to b a looser at this - you just keep the same attitude, continue to dread a situation, continue to come home upset, allow someone to get to you. One of our first experiences was This Kid Is Mean to Me, and we've played this one a lot. This runs relatively close to our Teenagers Are Cruel theme. Kid comes home, "this kid is mean to me". Okay what's going on..., how the kid hurt you, how you may have hurt the kid too, how would you have liked for things to have happened, let's think of the kid is NOT mean - what he does & says, pretend you are the kid and what do you think he was thinking, feeling, etc. At this point the kid at least no longer sees another Mean Kid, but someone he or she is willing to work with or around. We also focus on all the other things that happened during the day to cause happy feelings to put 'the incident' into perspective. The steps an events from game to game may change, but each day you have to go to school thinking the KID IS NOT MEAN - he had a bad day, he just seems to be envious, he just wants attention, he has problems at home or school, maybe parents don't care abou him. So we can then either do things to try to be a friend, or keep a distance but help him out if he needs it (called the 'reach out' opportunities), understand he just doesn't know how to properly deal with or act out his pain and avoid him for a while. All you have to do to be a winner is to not carry bad feelings in you heart to anyone that has acted in a mean way to you. Think in you mind that he deserves pitty and open your heart to his good things. Some times they make friends, sometimes not, but they surely do not worry any longer about being bullied or htey no longer get their feelings hurt over it. It is against the rules to say 'he is mean'. One of the reasons is that since we can never really know what is in the other kid's mind and heart the words may cause him more pain or just cause him to act more mean. He may be a weak kind of person and come to believe bad things about himself just because other people say them, and we never want to cause people to feel this way. And if anyone says to you 'he is mean', you get to be a grande champion if you can get just one other kid to stop saying it and to have an understanding heart toward him. These kids can't solve the problems of mankind, but are most certainly capable of eradicating the on s THEY face (and make a differnce on the playground;-)). And most importantly, they face the ones they have not yet encountered with equanimity. (LOL, you know, Kali, I can't even remember the which point I was addressing, so this one may be off the mark.) I just think that any individual who can be a winner at this game; then at the individual level, 'lables' -which arise initially from personal encounters- are not put on the people we deal with every day. The more pervasive this practice of 'being a winner' is, the more people who begin to look at others not to see and focus on so much the short comings as the potential and goodne s - then the more and more the winners of the world will be reaching out to the loosers, the weaker, and the weaker can become more empowered to grow stronger. Blaming "society" isn't going to provide a solution, anyway - it just riles up the media and gives young people an excuse to be mediocre. And sympathy is n't going to rid mankind of its problems. We need to be pragmatic. ... the general problems seem to be the same. I think it's just human nature. In other words, that's just the way it is. Sorry. It's true. Blame Pandora - or Eve. Fine, but as I said before, the only blame I can personally bear, is for my own views and actions and those I pass on to others. What I practice may not affect society at large, but it has a profound effect on my immediate surroundings. The pervasiveness of our individual practices, though, eventually do have an effect on the larger society. But taking this more global statement and reducing it done to my more immediate society, it is a view to which I personally could not subscribe with a "happy, smilely heart".

Johanne: I am so ashamed. please forgive me. I really do not look down on trailers or clerical workers. Clerical workers work harder than the most of us and get less credit (or pay) for it. I was a little carried away by Kali's complaints and the memory of a young woman trying to put me down by telling me her husband would not date me. I rather hope her husband did not date anyone - but that was a long time ago. please forgive me.

Sharon -- what a marvelous teaching game you have w/ your children. These attitudes will affect society, one person at a time. Whenever I reflect on the many grudges I carry around, I try to pretend that they are bonfires that I haven't managed to extinguish fully. So I visualize the "fire" (that is, the incident that hurt my feelings) and me pouring water, sand, etc. over it. Now, you have given me another approach. Thank you.

I understand where you were coming from with that one, Katy. It's the twitiness which presents the problem, not the fact that someone is "lower" than you...;) I know that neither of us are really snobs. But seriously, I don't get kicks off of gossiping about how lame everyone else is in my life. When I am presented with a pathetic situation, I am disappointed, but that's all. As far as people who have directly slighted me, after awhile, I rarely think about each individual incident, but the sum of al incidences build up. And when something similar happens again, you start to think, "what the heck? What's wrong with these people?" THis is not a subject upon which I ruminate day after day. In fact, this thread is the first time I've really openly discussed it. I think you're right, Sharon...we're going to have to agree to disagree. It's hard to think of life in terms of sweet games when you've been around people who've literally tried to kill eachother. My brother always says, "I look at life dichotomously - I am at once a terribly jaded cynic and a faithful optimist. I give everyone a chance to prove me wrong!" My variation is slightly more positive, as I try to approach each new person with a fresh heart.

Oh, and BTW, Sharon...when you quoted me, you clipped my personal and parental responsibility clauses...I DO agree that each person must do his or her own part to try to make the world a better place...MY point is that this is the ONLY way to effect any change, as buzzwords and catchphrases directed at the bad world in general take us to great lengths on the hamster wheel, but nowhere in reality. In much the same way, I think that that generalizations (those with at least some logical merit) are useful o ly to the individual who has complied enough experience to craft them. They are a tool to help the individual navigate through life. Oh, and Mom (Myretta), when i said "ridiculousness," I meant criminal, psycho acts. I have a little more patience for pettiness! ;)

A little off the subject, but awhile back this thread was discussing gender differences, and I just have to share a funny story about that. A few months, my girlfriend and I went to see How to Make an American Quilt. The woman behind us had somehow managed to drag a male to the show, and he was doing pretty well until the scene where Winona Ryder's character's fiance shows up unexpectedly (they had made an agreement that he would leave her alone for the summer to decide whether she was really ready to get married). All of the women in the crowd were outraged that he had reneged on their deal and was crowding her. Her fiance, on the other hand, couldn't understand why she wasn't just overjoyed to see him. Later that same day, they are in WR's grandmother's kitchen eating dinner, and the grandmother cheerfully asks the fiance, "So, are you spending the night?" Before the fiance could answer, my friend and I heard the guy behind us in the theater snort disgustedly and say, "Don't look like it!" We laughed so hard we cried, and we started up again about every ten minutes throughout the evening. Here are all the women upset because the fiance is pressuring WR and all this guy can think about is that the fiance won't be getting any that night. I've yet to see a better example of why men and women have trouble communicating.

It's hard to think of life in terms of sweet games when you've been around people who've literally tried to kill eachother. Yes, Kali, it IS hard - It was hard for me, anyway, to be a "winner" of the sweet game in my life's exeriences of emotional, physical, & sexual abuse; encounters with others (who behaved just like those you have known) - some of whom have even who lashed out at me in their own pain; working sucessfully in large, professional, male-dominant firms and all that comes with it; near-mugging/stabbing on the streets of New York; becoming the second parent to my young sisters small children after the death of my rother-in-law; on and on, and it ain't even over. It is even harder to stay a winner because some things endured are harder to continually see with peace of mind - they sometimes will do the 'crashing back' thing and you have to start the game over. But I have found that the more you "win" the easier it seems to be able to do. And THAT is a happy thought, indeed! Best wishes.

Kathleen! That is another of our games - The Burning Bowl! I didn't originate it - I saw it done in a new years eve service. But you write down your gripes, worries, anger, etc. on a paper and burn it in a bowl. The kids just want to torch the name of any kid that pissed them off, but we try to take it a little further than that.