Lady Catherine - Who told her about the engagement?

In the book Lizzy speculates that the Lucas's thought that since Jane was getting married perhaps Lizzy would also. This became the rumor which found its way to Charlotte and thence to Mr. Collins and thence to Lady C.

alternative suggestions have included; Charlotte found out from her lover (Colonel Fitzwilliam) Miss Bingley told Lady Catherine servants gossip (no excuse for interference is below Lady Catherine) I'm sure there were others which I've forgotten

Hey, in P&P 1 they have Charlotte say to Mr. Collins: "He {Mr. Darcy} is in love with Elizabeth"said Charlotte. Mr. Collins replies to Charlotte "L. Catherine will not stand for that". This is as you see Mr.D walking back after the first proposal to Rosings. This could confirm that Mr. Collins was very upset at the thought of Lizzie marring to well and maybe he would be mad/jealous enough to tell L.Catherine so she would stop the marriage. He did say to Lizzie "My dear cousin you may never have another pr posal of marriage". He was highly insulted that Lizzie turned him down. He thought "How could she ever refuse me". How could she not. If we use all of the information from both adaptations and the book everything points to Mr. Collins. Anna,someone said Mr. Darcy himself let it be known.

I thought I remebered a sneaky suggestion, but I cannot believe it of Darcy.

In the book, it seems pretty clear that the Lucas family wrote to Charlotte about Jane's engagement and also speculated that Lizzy & Darcy would become engaged. Mr. Collins' letter to Mr. Bennet mentions that this subject was "by the same authority" as his info re Jane & Bingley. Mr. Collins then writes that he has "reason to imagine that . . . Lady Catherine . . . does not look on the match with a friendly eye." What I think happened, as Lizzy speculates in the book, is that the local gossiped about Darcy being around the Bennets nearly as much as Bingley. Once there is an engagement, etc. The Lucases wrote this news to Charlotte, Mr. Collins kindly informed his noble patroness, she reacted w/ less than subtle anger, then took off for Longbourne so quickly that she got there before Mr. Collins' letter! (I do agree that the Charlotte & Col. Fitzwilliam connection is a more interesting theory, however!)

I'd say that the Lucas'a spread the rumor.I always thought that Sir William had somehow got it into his head that Lizzy and Darcy would be a great couple and that he should be the one to bring them together.Remember that he was the one who tried to get Lizzy and Darcy to dance at Lucas Lodge and he congratulated them on dancing at the Netherfield ball.So when Jane became engaged to Bingley Sir William thought that Lizzy and Darcy would not be to far behind.He told Charlotte and she told Mr. Collins and th ts how I think Lady C. heard of the engagment.Just a thought.

IF! It is good to hear from you, it has been an age! Welcome back! How was your Christmas in Ireland?

Well to get back on track, I think that the Collinses said something to Lady C. In the book, Charlotte and Maria get back whilst Mr Darcy is still there, Charlotte says to Lizzy "He must be in love with you" I'm quoting from memory. that was before the famous proposal and let down scene. 50 miles of good road scene. Even in the book I love that scene because Lizzy is totally clueless as to what Mr Darcy is getting to. " You would not always want to be near Longbourne....?" In the miniseries JE's expre sion at showing us her confusion is classic. Oh sorry, I think Charlotte mentioned something to Mr C and he said something to Lady C.

Thanks for the responses but help me with this. Do you really think Lady C. would travel to Longbourne on an idle report from Mr. Collins? I understand from the novel in Mr. Collins' letter, he alludes to the information being from the Lucases. The bottom line is that Mr. Collins would have to back up this claim but Darcy/Bingley sightings at Longbourne. I think Lady C. would demand more proof or expect this information to come from a close friend, like Col. Fitzwilliam (inadvertantly) or our friend M ss Bingley (for foul purposes only).

Karen: "Do you really think Lady C. would travel to Longbourne on an idle report from Mr. Collins?" I think that when Lady C. heard this rumor, she immediately dismissed it, but upon reflection, recalled how often Darcy had visited the parsonage during Lizzy's sojourn in Kent, that he looked at and spoke with her a great deal. Then she happened to glance over at Anne, compared her "beauty" to that of Lizzy's, admitted to herself that Darcy, although he certainly should have been by now, did not appear to be enamored of Anne, got very distressed and immediately sent for the barouche! She could n t afford to take any chances if she were to see her daughter safely married to Darcy!

Okay here is the real story. Darcy went to Lady C and said "listen mum, I am in love with Miss Elizabeth Bennet and want to marry her and nothing you say or do will ever make me change my mind. I do not not and will never love Anne! But you must do something for me and I'll give you L1,500. You must travel to Longbourne and tell Miss Elizabeth that you will never allow her to marry me. You will then get her to state her feelings about me, is this clear. Your windows need cleaning by the way."

Laura, I think you've got it! LOL. But if Mr. Darcy is as picky about housekeeping as you say, I change my mind about wanting him to drop in at my house someday. Jane

I had too. It just seemed so natural. But I think Darcy would love your house he just hates Lady C.

Of course, in P&P0, Huxley has Darcy and Lady C. in cahoots in just such a plot. I always thought the main suspect/yenta was Mr. Collins. I think he thinks he's doing Lady C. a tremendous favor by blabbing, and thus securing her favor.

I dare say that Mr. Collins did not hear a WORD about it from Charlotte, she hates him, so why would she ever tell him her fancies, which she did not tell her dear friend yet? I think it's more likely that the Lucases just gossiped too loud, maybe Lady Cathrine herself heard the.

Oh, Ayelet, I do not think that Charlotte hates him. She appreciates his character, connections, and situation in life, and that he is not malicious. But she also recognizes that of some delights (as Lizzie says) a little goes a long way.

In P&P1, they have Charlotte go out of her way to tell Mr. C. that Darcy "is in love with Elizabeth": when she sees him walking back after his aborted first proposal, I believe. . .

Don't you prefer the understated understanding between Lizzy and her friend in P&P2? About Darcy, and Mr Collins, too. They don't have girl talk and don't seem to have to.

"They don't have girl talk and don't seem to have to. " Great point. I hadn't noticed, but you are right. JA never lets her ladies talk about such things. But in P&P2, they did not have to! Much better!!

Oh, I don't know... the way this group likes to dish, I'm surprised that we can't dream up a scene where Charlotte and Lizzy have a heart to heart about their beaus.;)

Mari: the way this group likes to dish, I'm surprised that we can't dream up a scene where Charlotte and Lizzy have a heart to heart about their beaus.;) Ewwwww! I don't think that I want to hear anything having to do with Mr. Collins' love life! Ducktape, please! ;-)

"And normally I use this bed chamber, my dear Lizzy. Mr. C prefers the larger room for its size and its view of the lane. This room is very quiet and comfortable. So you see, we sometimes pass an entire night without being in one another's company at all. I am very well satisfied."

Sorry, Cheryl - couldn't resist such a challenge.

Interestingly enough, the only character whom Lizzy "dishes" with (besides Jane) is Wickham! Have you ever noticed how their discourse about Lady C., Mr. Collins, etc. is much more forthright than between Lizzy & Darcy? It really struck me in Episode II.

To do away with the positive view on their mutual understanding at that early stage of their acquaintance first: Lizzy and Wickham were both of an open,sociable and easy disposition. But it did them no good (their chats really brought forward the less agreeable sides of her personality)as Lizzy wanted to hear bad things about Darcy and all his connections( maybe due to hurt pride and some prejudice ;~) ) And Wickham was always ready to feed her something unfavourable about Darcy, in order to make her think better of himself. I do not doubt, that he found her attractive and fun to be with. And regarding Mr Collins who could resist a joke or two at his expense? About his conversation and boasting."There's lot's to be had of it" and " her Ladyship is fond of a good blaze then?"

I guess I could then ask: Did Darcy's reticence do _him_ any good? Did not immediately revealing Wickham's character early on -- at the Netherfield Ball when Lizzy first brings it up -- only lead to Lizzy's increased prejudice toward him? I'm only playing Devil's advocate because Ann2 can make flashing text & I can't!!

LOL Amy2 re. the flashing text!! I think Darcy couldn't have said more than he did at the ball. He would have been overheard by other dancers, it involved his own sister, and they were always being separated by the dance which would make it difficult to keep any train of thought going! I doubt it increased Lizzie's prejudice against him except that it had five more months to simmer!!;-)

Can't blink? visit the tutorial: http://www.spring.com/~anneh/tagsaaaa.html or use the HTML tutorial link from the main page. I really did try to make it easy to figure out. (Disclaimer: Blink doesn't work with MS Explorer)

Blink doesn't work with MS Explorer Why not?

]]Blink doesn't work with MS Explorer ]Why not? because MS Explorer doesn't support blinking text (Microsoft's choice)

]because MS Explorer doesn't support blinking text (Microsoft's choice) Bill Gates is currently working on Blink98, a real contender in the HTML command field.

]Blink98, a real contender in the HTML command field.

Ann2 can make flashing text & I can't!! Actually, you can - you just won't be able to see it blink yourself. But if you put the tag in, those whose browsers will blink will see it.

I don't know guys -- I think I'm Blinking Text Challenged. . .

Well I will try something but for a one reason or another I cannot seem to go into the practice mode .

I did it!! I did it .

You guys are lowering my self-esteem. I'm going to need federal matching money to get over this!

Getting back to the topic...reading the book after I saw the movie...I had thought maybe it was Georgiana...The night that Lizzie and the Gardiners left Derbyshire...remember when Darcy left the room after Ms. Bingley queried about why he was so quiet? What if...Georgiana had gone to her brother and asked about his feelings for Lizzie (remember in the Inn when Lizzie and Georgiana first met and Lizzie said "I've heard so much about you" and Georgiana replied, "And I about you". Certainly Darcy had been t lking about Lizzie to her...what if she had gone to her brother in concern and asked why Lizzie had left, what was bothering him, was he in love with her?" Then, one trip to (Aunt) Lady Catherines when she mentioned him marrying her daughter...and Georgiana might have just remarked,"but aunt...I fear my brother is in love with someone else!" Who could have kept the someone else from Lady Catherines harsh inquiry - certainly not sweet, shy Georgiana...and wha-lah!....Lady Catherine is in her carriage fas er than you can say "Oh, I have such tremblings and flutterings all over me!" Just thought I'd throw in another possibility! Linda In Georgia

It was Mr. Collins who told her - NO DOUBT. Sir Lucas was the source. I think any correspondence that came from Lucas Lodge to Hundsford was probably read by both Charlotte and Mr. Collins. (They have nothing else to say to each other!) Though I don't think Charlotte's loyalties necessarily are with Elizabeth. She didn't think twice about encouraging her cast-off. Also, Sir Lucas was highly likely to have made the probable engagement of Lizzy and Darcy into an actuallity, just as he did before with Jane and Bingley.

It was Mr. Collins who told her - NO DOUBT. Sir Lucas was the source. I think any correspondence that came from Lucas Lodge to Hundsford was probably read by both Charlotte and Mr. Collins. (They have nothing else to say to each other!) Though I don't think Charlotte's loyalties necessarily are with Elizabeth. She didn't think twice about encouraging her cast-off. Also, Sir Lucas was highly likely to have made the probable engagement of Lizzy and Darcy into an actuallity, just as he did before with Jane and Bingley.

But Sharon....would Mr. Collins have risked getting the ole"Dowager" upset with him in the room? He seemed like he always walked on eggshells when he was around her...although, he would do anything to get in her good graces...but she would have bitten his head off! Linda in Ga.

Linda in GA: Mr. Collins would do to ingratiate himself with her by taking her side and passsing along the warning to her. Tattle- tail, tattle-tail. Of course, since he probably has a little residual spite over Lizzy rejecting him, he think that Lizzy isn't good enough for a man in Darcy's position, either. Remember, he told her then that she wouldn't get an offer from anyone else. Then later when she was leaving the parsonage to return home, he kind of threw it in her face that she missed out on the privalege that Charlotte now has. "...and altogether I trust it does not appear that your friend has drawn an unfortunate- But on this point it will be as well to be sil nt". What a Jerk. Also note the language in the letter he wrote to Mr. Bennet.

Oh Linda, an additional thought - Mr. Collins corresponds regularly with Mr. Bennet, so it is likely that he also personally writes to Sir Lucas, his own father-in-law. So in the course of THAT connection, Sir Lucas may have written directly to Mr. Collins with his gossip.

The ole' snoop.... and...Sir Lucas would have formed this bit of gossip from the fact that Darcy had been visiting Longbourne with Mr.Bingley? Isn't it funny that Sir Lucas would have seen something that Lizzies own parents could not see! Do you think that Sir Lucas had bad intentions or just told the latest news without a thought about what rucus he would be creating?

If Mr. Lucas is the culpert then it was done with good intentions,because he liked Mr.Darcy.From the very begining he could see Darcy's interest in Elizabeth. The same with Charlotte,see could see it too. I think he liked being the matchmaker.

That could be. He did seem to like Lizzie too (although startled by her frankness). I think that Charlotte really was a good friend to Lizzie and valued her friendship as well. If they were the ones that let the cat out of the bag..I think it was not for meanness...

Haven't you guys ever spent any time in a small town? All there is to do is know everybody's business, and what you don't know, you conjecture. That is all that was going on. But in Sir Lucas's mind, he probably believed that it was gonna happen. Not because he has any great insight or intuition, but he is just stretching, as some people without a lot of sense do. Even Caroline Bingly made a comment to Darcy when he admired fine eyes in the face of a pretty woman. "How long has she been such a favorite? -and when am I to wish you joy?" she says. Darcy responds, "That is exactly the question which I expected you to ask. A lady's imagination is very rapid; it jumps from admiration to love, from love to matrimony, in a moment. I know you would be wishing me joy." Well, the news is, that it is not just a lady's imagination that can work that way.

I'm with Linda. I don't think Charlotte would have said anything to Lady C. which would have hurt her friend Elizabeth. I think Charlotte owes favors to Rosings, but is not exactly enamored of its chief inhabitant. My guess as to the culprit: Mr. Collins by way of the Lucases in Hertfordshire.

Ok you all win...I still want to think about the possibility of Georgiana having a relationship with her brother that may have included confidences...and I think that Georgiana really liked Lizzie...and if she had visited (aunt) Catherine....she just might have stood up for them both and would want Lady Catherine to begin looking elsewhere for a husband for her daughter. Could have...might have...probably didn't...but fun to imagine!

Linda: I agree that if Georgie had visited Lady C., she would NOT have participated in the dissing of Elizabeth. She surely wanted nothing to do with Caroline's trashing of her at Pemberley. Georgiana's close enough with her brother that she totally trusts his judgment. I still have not evolved a strong opinion on just what extent Darcy would take his little sister into his confidence. We know he had discussed Elizabeth with her - that is clear. But was it just to say, "I met this very charming woman when I was at Netherfield"; "I think an acquaintance with such a young woman should be most beneficial"; " She plays and sings very well indeed, is tolerably well read, has many interests - a very fine example of womanhood.."? True, Goergiana had not just arrived on this planet, so she could probably see for herself that Darcy was reacting differently to Elizabeth. Where I can't quite get to, is Darcy sharing his most tender and private feelings with a 16 year old girl, 10 years his junior. He says that Georgiana looks up to him almost as a father. He was 23 and she 11 when they lost their parent, so he probably feels like a father-figure where she is concerned. And also when he does marry Elizabeth, Georgiana is "alarmed" at the way Elizabeth talks to him. This, to me, implies there is still this authority boundary that she has never crossed with her bother. I just can't imagine her as his contemporary. Another interesting point regarding Georgiana's thoughts on her brother marrying sick Cousin Anne. If it was generally known that Lady C. intended Darcy for her daughter, of course Gorgiana knew of it. BUT, was is generally known what DARCY'S intentions were? Do you think he ever had any intention of marrying her?

On second thought, lets take the discussion re: Darcy's intentions to a new topic - 147, so we don't get too far off track here.

Linda, Linda. I am sorry I was not here to support you in your Georgiana theory. I know talk abounds about Collins being the culprit but I think he is much to spineless to do the deed (even if he was tattling). From reading the novel, I was never convinced that Collins did it. It makes much more sense to me that either a close friend )or Georgiana) slipped or someone spread it maliciously. Sir Lucas and Mr. Collins suck up to Lady C. so much they would never breach the topic whereas the situation des ribe by Linda seems very plausible. She probably didn't know Darcy and Anne was "promised" to one another and why would she, since Darcy, himself, did not consider to obligation one to be held. Georgiana would not have to be explicit either. From what we know about Darcy, Elizabeth is the first woman he has been serious about and women are usually very good at detecting love in men they know. Hang in there Linda!

Ladies, I must insist that it is Mr. Collins; remember, JA rarely gives her information directly; you must connect the dots yourself. I think that the letter he sends to Mr. Bennet says it all; ''He begins with congratulations on the approaching nuptials of my eldest daughter, of which, it seems, he has been told by some of the good-natured, gossiping Lucases.'' --He hears gossip from the Lucases, then writes the letter; he acts upon the information as if it were fact. ''I shall not sport with your impatience, by reading what he says on that point. What relates to yourself, is as follows.'' `Having thus offered you the sincere congratulations of Mrs. Collins and myself on this happy event, let me now add a short hint on the subject of another; of which we have been advertised by the same authority.' --He tells us here that he hears FROM the Lucases, the following news; 'Your daughter Elizabeth, it is presumed, will not long bear the name of Bennet, after her elder sister has resigned it, and the chosen partner of her fate may be reasonably looked up to as one of the most illustrious personages in this land.' ``Can you possibly guess, Lizzy, who is meant by this?'' `This young gentleman is blessed, in a peculiar way, with every thing the heart of mortal can most desire, -- splendid property, noble kindred, and extensive patronage. Yet in spite of all these temptations, let me warn my cousin Elizabeth, and yourself, of what evils you may incur by a precipitate closure with this gentleman's proposals, which, of course, you will be inclined to take immediate advantage of.' ``Have you any idea, Lizzy, who this gentleman is? But now it comes out.'' `My motive for cautioning you is as follows. We have reason to imagine that his aunt, Lady Catherine de Bourgh, does not look on the match with a friendly eye.' --Reason to image?? The man has never caught a hint in his life; she must have exploded when he took the opportunity to be the first to tell her the news. We know he is the type to do this, and not have a clue to the propriety of his behavior, from his actions at the Netherfield ball; ''I am in the happy position of being able to tell you that your aunt was in perfect health... 8 days ago.'' I also agree that Darcy's relationship with his sister, being by his own admission more like that of a father, would never have suddenly become that of a confidant on his love life!

Good evidence, Mari.

Mari -- there is a further quote from Mr Collins' letter which completes your point: "After mentioning the likelihood of this marriage to her ladyship last night, she immediately, with her usual condescension, expressed what she felt on the occasion" Expressed what she felt, indeed!! It's a wonder the Collinses were able to hear afterwards!

Okay, okay...I pulled out my copy of the dialogue from the movie...no mention of the Lucases in the letter Mr. B refers to but...when I pulled out my copy of Austens P&P...there it was and must relent...it's her story (Austen, I mean). And yes, I know that Darcy wouldn't have poured out everything to Georgiana but when Lizzie said "I have heard so much about you" Georgiana responded "And I about you". That was interesting to me..also...who else could Darcy confide in? After the evening at Pemberley Dar y knew that Lizzie had won over Georgiana and they had that one major common bond....Now, I know he's a man...of few words...I just thought that if he were going to talk ..at all..to someone...it had to be Georgiana or Bingley....and if he wanted a womans viewpoint...that would narrow the choices. But like I said...with that one phrase re: Lucases...and considering Mr. Collins would do anything to be of service to Lady Catherine...I must agree that is the most likely source of how Lady Catherine came upo her knowledge.

God, that Collins! What an idiot!

Sharon, shall we say Clueless?

Yes, yes -- Mr Collins is clueless and Lady C is a b**** ! She was so incensed about this "rumored engagement" that she must have set off immediately. (She even got to Longbourne before Mr Collins' letter -- which he probably wrote right after he got back to his study.) What a pair of co-dependents! :)

I think these explanations have been great. But I loath the thought that Mr. Collins through being obsequious or malicious was the culprit. Then again there are those who think that Sir Lucas' inadvertent inference at Netherfield, which gave Jane and Bingley a year of separation, was, though harmless from his prospective, extremely foolish. And JA would like to have such foolishness from such similiar men.

Mr. Collins's letter to Mr. Bennet on the elopement of Lydia is a most amazing production -- it's difficult to count the number of ways in which Mr. Collins manages to be offensive, apparently without being aware of it, in one medium-sized paragraph. (The novelist Trollope considered Mr. Collins's letters to be a comic masterpiece which "would move laughter in a low-church archbishop".) First off, it is not clear that any letter at all from Mr. Collins is called for upon this occasion (cf. Elizabeth: "Assistance is impossible; condolence, insufferable -- let them triumph over us at a distance"); however, a proper letter would begin something along the lines of "Unfortunately, I could not help hearing about Lydia...", would probably be discreetly silent as to the exact source from which the letter-writer heard the news, and would scrupulously avoid any implication that the letter-writer himself has spread the scandal any further. Instead, Mr. Collins tells on the Lucases for spreading the news of the scandal to Hunsford. Then he tells on himself and Charlotte for scandalmongering to each other. And he tells on himself for scandalmongering to the De Bourghs. He then offers a little self-contradictory "consolation": He offers to "alleviate" Mr. Bennet's distress, whose cause, on the other hand, "no time can remove". He "comforts" Mr. Bennet by pointing out that "The death of your daughter would have been a blessing in comparison of this". He manages to blame both Lydia as intrinsically bad and the Bennet parents for being too indulgent (and in the process tells on Charlotte for blabbing the intimate details of the Bennet family). (Thus in a later letter he oxymoronically tells Mr. Bennet that "You ought certainly to forgive them as a Christian, but never to admit them in your sight, or allow their names to be mentioned in your hearing".) He oh-so-delicately informs Mr. Bennet that Lady Catherine thinks that this will ruin the chances of his other daughters marrying, and rejoices that he didn't marry Elizabeth after all.

But Henry...does this writer tell of who he thinks let the cat out of the bag when it comes to Lady Catherine finding out about the relationship (or pending one) of Lizzy and Darcy? Because of the earlier letter full of gossip re: Lydia's escapades...does that mean we should assume that Charlottes family wrote her with gossip from observations of Darcy visiting with Bingley after and during the engagement? Also....does it make it clear that Mr. Collins letter to Mr. Bennet arrives the same day as Lady C therines visit...as it alludes to in the movie? I still think it is a matter of speculation and some amusing guessing!

Linda -- According to the novel, Mr Bennet discusses Mr Collins' letter w/ Lizzy the next morning (after Lady C's visit). The letter first congratulates the Bennets on Jane's engagement, then goes on to discuss the presumed engagement of Lizzy & Darcy "of which we [Charlotte & Mr Collins] have been advertised by the same authority" that is, by Charlotte's family from whom they learned about Jane & Bingley. Mr Collins' letter to Mr Bennet about Lydia's elopement is an earlier letter, sent while Mr Bennet is in London trying to find Lydia & Wickham. The letter about the engagements of the eldest Bennet daughters has the reference to Christian forgiveness. If Lady C had heard anything prior to Mr Collins discussing it with her, I doubt not that she would have paid a visit to Elizabeth even sooner! Her Ladyship was never one to delay in the performance of her duty, after all. ;-)

In P&P2 Lady Catherine and the letter from Mr. C. arrive on two different days. When Lady Catherine visits Lizzy is in her linen-colored dress that she wore for both proposals, but when her father talks about Mr. C's letter she is wearing the floral with the thin yellow waist band. (It has been a while since I made the costume inventory, so my memory might fail a bit here, but I know they were two different dresses.) Lizzy's Costume List

Lady C most likely observed Darcy's attention to Lizzy at Rosings and and his lack of attenion to her own jewel. She then needled the Collins and put two and two together. At this point I don't think Elizabeth knew her own feelings. Or JA simply needed a device to pull the book to its happy ending.

[Lady C most likely observed Darcy's attention to Lizzy at Rosings ..] Yea, I think she is too busy-body NOT to have noticed Darcy's attention to a 'pretty sort of gel'. Especially since BOTH of her nephews were flocking to Elizabeth.

HC thank you for the critical analyis of Mr. Collins offensive and ridiculous letter.

Had to go back and read Henry's 2bits, may I call you Henry? The small town analogy is a good one. remember these folks had nothing to do but gossip. Although, I dont think they would bring up the subject. Remember, he didn't want to offend the old bag by being late. I dont think he would want to be the bearer of bad news. Happy Valentines Day everyone.

Anne I agree with your line of thinking. If Lady C. brought up the matter, Collins would have responded but for him to drop that bomb... He knows that Lady C. has plans for Darcy and Ann to marry so why get "shot" by telling that rumor.

Karen, did he really know of Lady C.'s plans for Anne and Darcy? It was Wickham who told Lizzie; I'm not sure whether Collins would have known it. And he'd probably delighted to tell Lady C. if he thought he could injure his "fair cousin Elizabeth" - the one who had rejected his offer!!! Probably, according to him, she didn't deserve to "ever receive another offer of marriage"!!!!;-)

Inko -- I think Collins did know of her Ladyship's grand design for cousinly matrimony. After Darcy and Fitzwilliam left Rosings, the Collins party visited. When Lady C mentions how Darcy seemed to feel reluctant to leave, "Mr Collins had a compliment, and an allusion to throw in here, which were kindly smiled on by the mother and daughter." I take this to mean that he alluded to Darcy's increased attachment for Anne as well as Rosings. As for why Collins would venture to tell Lady C something which would drive her nuts, I think he felt it was his duty. And he tells Mr Bennet in his letter "After mentioning the likelihood of this marriage to her ladyship last night," etc. So maybe he wanted to congratulate Lady C if she already knew, or appear to be well informed (and useful), or who knows what Jane Austen meant. But it appears that Lady C gets the info from the odious Mr Collins.

I think the bit in Chapter 37 -- "They were excessively sorry to go!" etc. etc. -- is meant to show that Lady Catherine does NOT have then any particular idea about Darcy and Elizabeth...

[I think the bit in Chapter 37 -- "They were excessively sorry to go!" etc. etc. -- is meant to show that Lady Catherine does NOT have then any particular idea about Darcy and Elizabeth...] No, but she would have noticed that he paid attention to her. It is LATER when Mr. Collins tells her of a possible engagement between Darcy and Elizabeth that she would have recalled it and have some concern about some truth to the rumor.

I keep thinking that who told Lady C. about the engagement maybe isn't important. Kind of like, what did Billy Joe McCallister drop off the Tallahachee Bridge? Something that we can speculate on forever, but will never know for sure. ;-)

] what did Billy Joe McCallister drop off the Tallahachee Bridge? this is way OT, but has anyone ever seen the words written down? I'd always heard it as Billy Joe jumped off the Tallahachee Bridge...

OT: Billy Joe did jump of the Tallahachee Bridge, but the Billy Joe & a girl (presumably the singer ?) were seen at the bridge the prior week (?) throwing something off the bridge. Now, back on topic: after Lady C heard the rumor about Darcy & Elizabeth, she immediately set off to browbeat Elizabeth and persuade Darcy against it. Do you think she also discussed it with her brother's family? What would Col Fitzwilliam's response have been, do you suppose?

Im sure the lady would write the Earl, after all it was her duty (she thinks) to make sure Darcy married well. Col Fitz seemed like a good natured fellow and would be on Darcys side. If the couple had not acted so quickly, there might have been other visits, once the banns are published, or licence bought thats it (I think) Down South, you throw rocks off bridges, before you throw yourself

[ Do you think she also discussed it with her brother's family?] Not before she made the trip to Longbourn and London. I don't think she made time to think about anything but squashing it once she got wind of the rumor. But afterward, she probably wrote the Earl.

Sharon, I agree with you. Lady C. is an action oriented person (someone who acts first, thinks later). She'd do her damage and then tell other family members (to never speak to Lizzy).

Karen: She'd do her damage and then tell other family members (to never speak to Lizzy). Poor Lady C. Col Fitzwilliam and Miss Darcy will be right there to conteract her opinions on every front.

Lady Catherine may have instructed Mr Collins to warn his cousin(Mr Bennet) that his daughter must be rebuked and told what was 'her place'. And then remembering how Lizzy had been so outspoken on the matter of younger daughters and their share of the fun.And getting even more alarmed when she recalled how Lizzy had had more than her share of the conversation by 'exercising her arts' on Darcy and Fitzwilliam. She maybe understood that mr Bennet could not control this obstinate girl and realized that the l cturing had to be performed by a true proficient. And off she went...thank God !

LOL! Capital, Ann. And really, all things considered, I begin to think it perfectly reasonable.

Ann, that's a very interesting angle. I never thought that Lad C's ulterior motive would be to have Mr. Bennet dissaude Lizzy, care of Mr. Collins. But considering how she reins in Anne, she might very well have assumed that a parent could completely control his child. EXCEPT in this case!!

Lady Catherine could not have thought that Mr Bennet would want to put a stop to " A match of the century" in terms of fortune and prestige? She doesn't know him to be genuinely concerned for his beloved Lizzy, especially in matters of the heart. She might have had every reason to believe him to want to encourage the match.

She doesn't know him to be genuinely concerned for his beloved Lizzy, especially in matters of the heart. In fact, quite the opposite. JA has Lady Catherine saying "Daughters are never of much consequence to a father."

Here's my theory: Colonel Fitzwilliam is the informer. I think Darcy confided in him after his proposal. Colonel should have already suspected something going on between them because of Darcy's delaying their leave etc. In P&P2 version we have an extra hint when Lizzy and Colonel meet the first time, and he says he has heard much about her. But the key to my theory is in Darcy's letter to Lizzy where he says : "...I can appeal more particularly to the testimony of Colonel Fitzwilliam, who from our near relationship and ***constant intimacy***....". We also know that he waited for her return from her walk, most likely to give 'his testimony'. Darcy must have given him some sort of explanation rather than asking him just to wait for her and answer her questions. After all the Colonel would wonder why all the trouble, why is he telling her about this event that he has tried so hard to keep a secret, etc. I know I would have gotten suspicious. Wouldn't you? The only other possibility is Collins' maid who possibly overheard the conversation between Lizzy and Darcy. By the way, hello everybody! this is my first posting. I hope to introduce myself in a proper manner soon. I have been reading some of your articles for about a month. You all sound very much like people I would want to hang around with. So, I am... Megan

Megan, welcome. We've been having a long discussion about the relationship between Col Fitz and Darcy on another topic "Col Fitzwilliam in love with Lizzy?" You might also check out "The magic 30 minutes"

I'll step in here, as well. I'm fairly new to all this, having just seen P&P2 when it last aired on A&E. I just received the videos last week and have watched them 3 times already! I'm ashamed to tell anyone of my latest obsession. Col Fitz as the informer is an interesting theory, but I think much hinges on how much he respects Darcy's confidences. It seems he has kept quiet on the Wickham incident.

I was wondering the other day how Lady Catherine knows that Wickham is an "infamous eloper". Infamous, to me at least, implies more than one elopement. Does she (Lady C) know of his attempt to elope Georgiana? Or has W been trying to persuade many young heiresses (Miss King et al) to elope with him?

I don't think "infamous" necessarily means she's aware of more than one elopement. It's just her saying she knows, and indeed it is well known, that he did elope with Lydia.

The phrase was infamous elopement, not eloper.

Resp #87... Joan, I've been away What I meant to say is : since people with less income could always be assumed to be practical in wanting to raise their own fortunes.. Lady Catherine would also assume that Mr Bennet would want to raise his family's worth by a marriage between Lizzy and Darcy. So, by "having" (assuming also) Mr Collins write to Mr Bennet she may have been wanting to express her disgust at the union. But this letter could not have had the desired effect (mentioned by Ann2) of "Mr Bennet rebuking Lizzy" for not knowing her place. (Im still assuming the materialistic factor). However, if Lady Catherine had known Mr Bennet to be genuinely concerned for his beloved Lizzy, he would have stopped the match rather than encouraged it and have her censured. But Lady Catherine didn't know what a favourite Lizzy was. (or does she??) Someone else mentioned it before and I also believe Mrs Collins happily suspected the attraction to be heightened by the Bingley's engagement, mentioned it to Mr Collins and he blabbed to Lady Catherine wanting to be so much of service to her with his How-dare-his-ungrateful-cousin- raise-her-hopes-such?" She immediately decided to nip it in the bud and went off. The letter from Mr Collins to Mr Bennet was entirely his own doing..

]The letter from Mr. Collins to Mr. Bennet was entirely his own doing. Mr. Collins letter: "I thought it my duty to give the speediest intelligence of this to my cousin ect.ect.ect.