Jane Austen Villains! Boo! Hiss!

I still think Mary Musgrove tries my patience more than all the rest, and it's especially vexing that no one even attempts to set her straight. They just roll their eyes and make gestures to one another. She is not dangerous in any way, but she is definitely more annoying than the others. She is the one that I would have to hold my hand down to keep from smacking!

I vote for Lucy Steele in S&S as one of the nastiest pieces of catty womanhood out in Austen land. She is much worse in the book, even, than in the adaptation (although the actress -- Imogene Stubbs ? -- did a marvelous job). Granted she has no power, but after she will after she marries Robert and makes up with Mrs F.

I vote for Lucy Steele in S&S as one of the nastiest pieces of catty womanhood out in Austen land. She is much worse in the book, even, than in the adaptation (although the actress -- Imogene Stubbs ? -- did a marvelous job). Granted she has no power, but after she will after she marries Robert and makes up with Mrs F.

Sorry about the double post -- my local server disconnected me as I submitted my response, and when I was initially reconnected it did not show up! Oh well, it is far from a record! ; )

For me, no character in Austen is worse than Aunt Norris in Mansfield Park. She is ab-so-lute-ly UNBEARABLE! When I reread the book last year, I sometimes had to put it down during her scenes because I just couldn't take any more of her. She's like a combination of Lady Catherine (domineeringness), Mrs. Bennet (busybodyness) and Mr. Collins (snobbery & servility). What makes it worse is that she's not a comic character--you have to take her straight. She's the only Austen character I've ever wanted t murder.

I've always thought Mr. Elton to be the most dispicable of Jane's villans in the way that he treated Harriot, and I feel that he got what he deserved with his wife. Mrs. Elton holds the distinction of being the only villain that I wanted to smack more than Caroline Bingley- and that is saying something, even though Lucy Steele does come in a close second!

On another note-how about Henry's father in Northanger Abbey: Cold, indifferent, insufferable man who sends Catherine off in an unescorted coach the minute he finds out she's not really an heiress. In addition, the way he treats his own daughter, never loving her as much as on the day of her nuptials. I hate that man! And, I completely agree about Fanny, who along with the actress who played Caroline Bingley, would get my vote in any future re-make of Cinderella as the two ugly stepsisters. I thought it was a real nice touch at the end of S&S to have Fanny scrambling with the others for the gold coins. Nice commentary on her character.

Anne3, you forgot miserliness in your catalogue of Mrs. Norris' faults, but I agree with you. She is absolutely the worst. Maybe we could have her as the mother of Caroline Bingley and Fanny--i.e. Cinderella's step-mother and ugly step-sisters!!!!

Sometimes I skim through Emma, just to read the Mrs. Elton passages, MP for Aunt Norris, and NA for Isabella Thorpe. Does anyone else ever get fascinated with the bad guys? (I also once watched Sleeping with the enemy on fast forward, watching only the scenes with both Julia Roberts and the husband.)

Katy -- what an interesting method of (re)watching movies. The only time I did that was for "Die Hard" since I was only interested in the Alan Rickman villain. (Bruce Willis I can genereally do without.) I agree w/ above comments re Aunt Norris. If she were rich and/or titled, I believe she could give Lady Catherine a run for biggest snob.

A notable resemblance to Miss Bingley, Mrs Dashwood and her lovely sidekick:

Kathleen - thanks for admitting how you watch Die Hard. It was on one of the networks last week and I kept chuckling thinking someone watches this movie for Alan Rickman. He was the best part of the movie!! I have not gotten to MP nor NH so from my knowledge I can only vote for Fanny Dashwood. Harriet Walter did an excellent job in playing her and to my horror Fanny was even worse in the novel. Elizabeth Eliott also needs a good smack. I agree with Cheryl that it is a testament to JA that she creates characters so real that you do want to harm them.

The one I want to smack, or at least shake untill his teeth rattle , is Edmund Bertram, about the time he tries to get Fanny to accept Henry Crawford. The man is such a blind, stupid TWIT!

"The one I want to smack, or at least shake untill his teeth rattle , is Edmund Bertram, about the time he tries to get Fanny to accept Henry Crawford. The man is such a blind, stupid TWIT!" But at that time he was in love with Mary. Did you expect him to notice one woman when he was infatuated with another?

I must still cast my vote for Caroline Bingley. She is such a nasty, jealous woman; such an intolerable snob that I wish I had a punching bag with Anna Chancellor's likeness! "Shocking! "Abominable!" KA-POW!

If I were an artist (can't draw a line as it is) I'd paint Caroline Bingley's face and Fanny's face and Mrs. Norris' face on a tennis ball, one on each. Then I'd really whack those balls across the net!!;-)

"I agree with Cheryl that it is a testament to JA that she creates characters so real that you do want to harm them." ROTFLOL. I sometimes imagine continuations whose sole point is the dishing out a little harm to those in need of a little.

Ok guys! I didn't start this topic to see who could come up with the most painful way to hurt an Austen Villain! Put away those knives and guns! ;-) Why do we hate these people? Of course it has to do with their actions, but it is beyond that. Are there villains we love to hate? The first time I read Emma I loathed Mrs. Elton...so much that I was reluctant to reread the novel because I didn't want to meet Mrs. E again! But I did and was surprised to find that she didn't even appear until the second volume! She loomed so large in my memory that I was astounded to find that she wasn't in every scene! Now I've kind of grown fond of Mrs. Elton...I can laugh at her as I believe Jane Austen intended me to...even though I still wish Emma would put her in her place when she's at Jane Farifax's and Mrs. E. is making ludicrously unveiled comments about a certain Dr.'s restorative powers...I want Emma to let her know, very nicely of course, that she has known of the engagement long before Mrs. Elton has! See, there I go again! Mrs. E. does it to me every time! ;-)

Mrs. Elton merely made me laugh, and was a foil for Emma's indignations. I particularly like her astonishment that Mrs. E. would call Mr. Knightley "Knightley" upon so little acquaintance. Emma's reaction revealed her feelings for Mr. Knightley before she knew she had them. And as for Mr. Knightley, he also found Mrs. E. an endless source of amusement. Love his comment when she tells him that she cannot host the party on her own (I think!): " Can you not, Mrs. Elton? I would have thought it well within your purview." And when he tells Emma that she chose for Mr. Elton much better than he chose for himself.

At least JA does not merely torture us with these characters. She let us live vicariously through Darcy's put downs of Caroline, Knightly's perfect way of handling Mrs E, &tc.

Inko: If I were an artist . . . I'd paint Caroline Bingley's face and Fanny's face and Mrs. Norris' face on a tennis ball, one on each. Then I'd really whack those balls across the net!!;-) Well, I think that all of us have doing a pretty good job of whacking all of them across the Net, and without the tennis balls!

I think the reason we all want to slap Caroline is -- she is standing in the way of our most cherished wish: to see Lizzy & Darcy get together. She is the book's ultimate symbol, along with Lady C., for the snobbishness & superiority of society women in general; she is sharp-tongued and insulting whereas Lizzy's wit generally doesn't harm others; she is consumed by jealousy for an object she really doesn't care about.

Caroline didn't insight this in me,because you knew that Darcy could see past her,because she never knew his true feelings for Elizabeth. The part in the video what really gets me mad is that at Pemberely everything was going so smoothly for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy,only to find that Lydia and Wickhams affair would add again to their seperation.

You should be over on the pun thread, Anne3 -- good one! My dislike of Caroline is that she isn't willing to compete for Darcy on equal terms. Instead of trying to win him by making herself more desirable, she simply puts Lizzy down every chance she gets, thereby merely provoking Darcy and ruining her own chances (if indeed she ever had any). I, too, found the scene at the Inn where you know things are going to get rocky again extremely vexing ... sort of a "now what feeling.

It is ironic that Caroline B. uses the same paltry form that she critisizes Elizabeth for at Netherfield: That of knocking down others to make ones self look good. I think these villians are easier to take when we know they cannot really hurt our herione. Mary cannot do as much harm to Anne as Elizabeth can (thus I want to slap Elizabeth) Fanny can do more to Elinore than Lucy can. No one can change Edwards good impression, but can have other things happen, as did. (Slap: Fanny) Caroline gets hers from Darcy and Lizzie could verbally slap her if she wanted to (Slap: Lady C.) Do you see my point?

Yes, Dina, I see your point and though I too want to Lady C., I don't think I consider her someone who really hurt Lizzy. I know that Lizzy is fearful that Lady C. will really influence Darcy but to me she is similar to Mary Musgrove just much more vexing (as far as actual power to harm). I find this topic really interesting because many critiques of JA's novel focuse on the men as villians. Needless to say, I find these women much more troublesome than their male counterpoints. And from her writings, I would venture to say that JA considered the women more officious as well.

Absolutely, Karen. To me, a Miss Bingley is actually more odious than a Mr. Wickham. He's more of a standard-issue blackguard, whereas Miss B. is such a harpy. I also think that if Lady Catherine had wanted to, she _could_ have harmed Lizzy, especially before the marriage. What if she had arranged a "good marriage" for L. with someone else, then used her considerable influence on Mr. and Mrs. Bennet to "make" Lizzy accept? Sounds kind of far-fetched, I know, but they _were_ in kind of desperate finan ial straights. Heck, she might have offered to keep Longbourne in the B. family if only Lizzy DIDN'T marry Darcy.

It seems all her "villlians" (male and female) are officious. I don't see too many men villians. Most of her really rotten men cause bitter things to happen to those close to our heroine - like Willoughby and Wickham - except maybe the father in NA. The men with direct impact on the heroine- Elton, the piano buyer in Emma and Collins - aren't really evil. Am I forgetting anyone?

What about Lady Susan? She's pretty bad.

Lord, Fanny Dashwood is an unpleasant lady! Villainous because of her influence over her husband and the cause of the poor treatment of the Dashwood widow and orphans. Lady Catherine is extraordinarily nasty to Eliz. Bennet. Rude to the point of unbelief. Mary Musgrove makes you want to shout at her to shut up! On the male side. Wickham is both sexual and financial predator. Ditto Willougby. Henry Thorpe, is braggart and clownish boor extraordinaire. General Tilney,an unfeeling, snobbish example of the Whig aristocracy of the time. Ditto Mr Elliot. Worst lady villian: Fanny Dashwood. Worst male villian: Willougby.

#29 _Amy I have always had a sneaking regard for Lady Susan!She is so utterly ruthless! What a dreadful mother! Yet, in her own way, a survivor. D'you think she's a prototype Mary Crawford, Amy?

] #29 _Amy I have always had a sneaking regard for Lady Susan!She is so utterly ruthless! What a dreadful mother! Yet, in her own way, a survivor. D'you think she's a prototype Mary Crawford, Amy? ___ What a great question! Have to think about that one.

What is your definition of a villian? I think of them as being selfish beyond all reasonable proportion, not just self promoting. Lady Susan? How embarrassing, it must be this head cold.

Dina, I would add to your definition trying to harm our heroine. Yes the villian is selfish and self promoting but they do things to explicitly hurt the protagonist.

I guess I was thinking that selfishness would include hurting others, but it doesn't necessarily. All of Willoughby's, Wickams, Fanny D.'s, Caroline B.'s, and Mr. Tilney's action (to name a few) all seem to be self centered, but this selfishness leads to hurting (in some cases many) other people. Karen, do you think their actions are explicitly to hurt or just a result of their selfishness?

In Caroline's case, I have always figured she can't help herself. She's as obsessed with Darcy as Darcy is with Lizzy.

In Caroline's case, I have always figured she can't help herself. She's as obsessed with Darcy as Darcy is with Lizzy. And when it comes to obsession, we know whereof we speak.

Darn right Myretta! I think we've already delved into this before, but let me ask this: Do you guys feel that Miss Bingley had any serious feelings for Darcy? Or did she just look at him and see a great estate & Pemberley?

]Or did she just look at him and see a great estate & Pemberley? This in the side that gets my vote. Caroline doesn't seem to understand Darcy at all, given the time she has spent in 'house parties' with him I can't believe she's ever looked at him as a person, she seems to regard him as just a cipher for status and wealth.

Ditto, Anna. Caroline only saw Darcy as a status symbol. I think she was quite incapable of feeling any deep emotion, such as love!!

Deep emotion for Duckface. Love, no. Longing and desire -- even if just for the idea of Darcy and his status and possessions, maybe.

Always the duckface's advocate, I must agrue that the lady probably felt what she believed was love - and few of us can love more than that. This was not Mr. Collins after all. She knew him well, he was very handsome and clever, she had a more comfortable relationship with him than many characters in the novel. She probably, like Elizabeth Elliot, "liked the man for himself and still more being (his) father's heir". Of course the quality of her love for Darcy could never measure up to ours!

What a lovely way of putting it , Katy! Do you ever feel at all sorry for her?

Actually Caroline, yes, I do feel a little sorry for her when she goads Darcy into praising Elizabeth at Pemberly. I believed she knew even as she spoke that she was going too far, and, even so, she did not think Darcy would go as far as he did in his response.

Dina - I think the villians so things, which are very selfish, to explicitly harm the heroine. For instance, Fanny D. tries to separate Elinor and Edward because she is a meanie (arrogant and vicious). Most of her actions towards to the Dashwoods are mean spirites slights or affronts. These actions may spring from her pettiness but are done deliberately. Caroline Bingley - Katy is much more generous to her than I am. She knew she was pushing Darcy too far and knew he was fond of her. She is a harpy!! But I do agree with Katy that Caroline believes she loves Darcy yet doesn't reallly love anyone but herself.

Karen, I must respectfully disagree that Fanny Dashwood tries to separate Elinor and Edward because she is a meanie. She simply believes, in her own way, that Edward must marry better than Elinor, being the head of their family and the heir to the wealth. Mind, I am not excusing any of her actions, just defending her motive. Again, I think Caroline finds it very difficult to believe that Darcy is seriously attracted to a country girl like Lizzy. She goads him because she desperately wants him to tell her that it can't be true. But I also believe that she loves his money and status far more than she loves him.

It seems like we're all in agreement -- Caroline is in love with Darcy's wallet, not with him!

It may be just this week, but I still see Austen in Regency England being rather daring in some of her novels by having adultry, fornication, embezzlement, but that all these things are based on selfishness, which makes them mean-spririted, deceitful, and down right evil. I guess this comes from years of religious instruction - all evil-doing can be narrowed down to selfishness. However, I do believe there are some people who are just plain old evil, but I just don't think Jane is that "dark". I agree wit most of what is said, but I guess I am trying to narrow it down to one common denominator.

She might be in love with his wallet, but having a gorgeous looking man at her side probably doesn't hurt either ;) I too agree with Dina, her vilains don't do much arm, their not satanic-obscure sided vilains

Not just the wallet, but also the prestige - the social standing - the chance to be mistress of Pemberley.

Susan - I understand and agree with your description of Fanny's motives but how she carries out her actions; she is just downright cruel. Her comments to the Dashwoods are so snide! Perhaps it is possible to think meanly of thoses around you are still treat them as human beings but typically once you classify people as beneath you, you are exposed as the beast you are.

Karen, I totally agree that she is not a nice person, just disagree that her meanness is her motive in relation to Edward and Elinor. She is obviously not an empathetic being, but her behavior to Lucy in finding she is engaged to Edward shows that she has a particular type of person in mind for Edward, and neither Elinor nor Lucy is it. She is certainly not someone I would want to have to deal with. BTW, I particularly liked your comments in relation to GWTW. I was lurking and enjoying the conversation.

Mrs. Elton's need for attention strikes me as particularly male-oriented. She is a bit of a nymphomaniac, if you ask me...;)

Why Kali, you are on to something ! She is always making remarks like 'the old dear has a crush on me' about Mr Woodhouse of all men.And she is rating(?) Frank Churchill rather high at the ball.As if anybody wanted her opinion on men. And she is attracted to Knigthley too, not just the wallet and prestige?

The old "Duckface & Lady Catherine" topic has been archived, but since there were a few recent messages, we'll just combine the thread into this topic. Topic 24 of 218 [austen]: Duckface and Lady Catherine Response 102 of 108: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (09:02) * 22 lines ]But would the 10 minutes of silence have filmed well? ;-) How about this: (Elizabeth and Mrs. Bennet in Mrs. B's room.) E: Mama, Mr. Darcy had proposed and I have accepted. Mrs. B: (Silent and totally still) E: Mama, did you hear, Mr. Darcy and I are to be married. Mrs. B: (Remains silent and still) E: Mama, are you all right? Mama? Mama! Mrs. B: Lips moving, but no sound coming out--Mr. Darcy, 10,000 a year, 10,000 a year, 10,000 a year ..... At this point E either A) runs some smelling salts under her nose or B) dumps a pitcher of water over her (the choice is yours). Mrs. B thus recovers and goes into her pin money speech. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 24 of 218 [austen]: Duckface and Lady Catherine Response 103 of 108: kathleen (elder) * Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (12:12) * 2 lines Carolyn -- wonderfully imagined. I personally like the pitcher of water, but I imagine Elizabeth would be nice and use the smelling salts. And don't forget, Mrs B has to fidget, get up and sit down again! I shall just imagine Allison Steadman here. ;.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 24 of 218 [austen]: Duckface and Lady Catherine Response 104 of 108: Ann (Ann) * Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (13:21) * 1 lines I still like the idea of Mrs. Bennet being played by Eric Idle or Michael Palin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 24 of 218 [austen]: Duckface and Lady Catherine Response 105 of 108: Susan Christie (Susan) * Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (15:12) * 3 lines #102 At this point E either A) runs some smelling salts under her nose or B) dumps a pitcher ofwater over her (the choice is yours). Carolyn, how evil of you to give us that choice! You know how most of us would want to choose, don't you? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 24 of 218 [austen]: Duckface and Lady Catherine Response 106 of 108: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (06:58) * 4 lines #105 Carolyn, how evil of you to give us that choice! You know how most of us would want to choose, don't you? Susan, I am sure we are ladylike and will do the "right" thing. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 24 of 218 [austen]: Duckface and Lady Catherine Response 107 of 108: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (10:58) * 1 lines I'm still fond of my idea that Mrs. Bennet should be played by Hugh Grant. Such palpitations of his heart & flutterings! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 24 of 218 [austen]: Duckface and Lady Catherine Response 108 of 108: Anna (Anna) * Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (16:41) * 3 lines ] Mrs. Bennet should be played by Hugh Grant. Such palpitations of his heart & flutterings! the very thing!

If I had to be crossed in love at least once in my life, I would want it to be bya Willoughby. The perfect villian, he would have succeeded in dissolving every ounce of trust a person had, and that's likely to last for life too.

Right on, Ann2...the worst is the part where she attempts to hoist herself onto Mr. Knightley as Lady Patroness of the Strawberry-picking party...

"perhaps not" mmmm....mmmm....mmmm

What, Cindy dearest? ;)