Anne Elliot: Beyond Gender Politics

This is a very thoughtful argument, Hilary. I agree with you that Lizzy _is_ in danger of becoming totally disillusioned with men after Wickham's snap engagement to Mary King and Mr. Darcy's odious first proposal, not to mention Mr. Collins'. I think Anne Eliot does possess something of a feminist spirit, if you will: yes, she is disappointed in love, and this starts to wear on her spirits; however, when the time comes to take action -- as when she completely takes control after Louisa's fall -- she's ore effective than any man present, even Wentworth. And I don't think there's anything wrong with her sticking to her guns and not abandoning her one true love for just anyone else who comes along. In her own way, she's a quiet tower of strength.

I have, for some time now, felt that I liked Persuasion better than any other of JA's novels. I think it is her most mature and (though Henry Churchyard has prooved me wrong) I like to think Anne and Jane have many similarirties. I find it diffilcult at times to see any of our heriones in a completely modern way and have respect for those who can. I feel there are so many other strictures placed upon them that it is sometimes difficult to judge them in modern terms. They live in a male dominated so iety. They live in a time when you obeyed your elders out of respect, no matter what. The actions our heriones take cannot be judged harshly in terms of gender politics by those of us who have had freedoms these women might never understand. Anne obeyed her father and listened to Lady Russell's advice because that was the way things were done. I don't know if she would have had the strength of character at that young age anyway to do what she did at 26, which in a way, was scandalous. I admire Anne so much. Her integrity is impeachable. She is certainly not as dynamic as Lizzie but has a calmness about her that Lizzie will never know (pardon my tense here). I look at what these women did to guarantee their own happiness in the context of the time they lived in and their situations and cannot help but admire their strength as women, this is what makes them heros (humans?). Think of how young women of that time in similar situations who read about them felt. I don't like to comple ely buy into feminism in modern terms (glass ceiling and all that), but am grateful that I have freedoms. There are times I wish that things would turn out for me as they did for Anne, but I am glad I have opportunites. The fact that so many people react as we all do to JA's characters proves that their herosim does transcend gender politics and time, if they were insipid we wouldn't give them any time at all.

Lizzie is my favourite JA character, but there is much that I admire in Anne as well, and in many ways it is much more remarkable that she stuck to her principles than that Lizzie did. Elizabeth is in the position of strength of having a beloved sister as a confidante and also enjoys her farther's true regard and affection (she is his favourite). Although her mother and other sisters are annoying, I don't think there is any evidence of animosity coming from them. In fact, Mrs. Bennet is really only loo ing out for her girls' best interests, how ever inappropriately she goes about it! Who does Anne have to look out for her? Her father and Elizabeth completely disregard her feelings and usually her presence and Mary is constantly insulting her. The one person on her side, Lady Russell, nearly ruined her life by talking her out of marrying Wentworth. When Charles Musgrove proposed, it certainly must have been more difficult for her to say no than it was for Lizzie to say no to Mr. Collins !

Lizzie is also my favorite, due to her liveliness and great wit. I could argue though, that Mrs. Bennet seems almost jealous of Lizzy at times -- she is downright resentful when Lizzy refuses to marry Mr. Collins, threatens to never see her again, etc. We could also argue that Caroline Bingley, Lady C. and Mrs. Hurst bear Lizzy a great deal of animosity, since they pick up on Darcy's affection for her. However, Lizzy's immediate family circle is certainly not as cold as the Eliot's. And Anne does seem more mature -- she's about six years older, right? I agree there is a depth & a maturity to Austen's last novel which makes it my 2nd favorite. And you have to think that it DID mirror JA's life in some way -- the Lefroy incident; her never being married, etc. If JA DIDN'T experience lost hopes in love, she's an even greater writer than we think!

I agree with all the arguments above. Lizzie is my favorite character, also, but Anne runs a very close second. I've always seen a quiet strength in her that doesn't ask for recognition from anybody around her (and she certainly doesn't get it!) - I find even Lady Russell rather too cold and manipulative to be a good influence for Anne. I always admire the way she remains the same, calm, reasonable creature she is considering her terrible family. The only people who would be good for her--and I think n her own way she recognizes this during the story--are the Crofts. Amy 2 - you say that you think Mrs. B was a little jealous of Lizzie. I don't think she was. But she was jealous of anybody who would have a daughter married before one of hers - i.e., the Lucases. According to her, it was a race among the mothers of all the marriageable daughters in Meryton, where the daughters had very little to say in the matter (according to her!!)

If JA DIDN'T experience lost hopes in love, she's an even greater writer than we think! Great point! Wouldn't you love to know about her "dissappointments"? Ocassionally I have thought about having a conversation with JA. I think she would not answer my questions regarding her personal life. She would be appalled at my boldness. Even if we became friends. I don't think she really told Cassandra everything. Rebecca: Jane was her confidante in P&P2 but not so much in the book. I really think Lizzie was lonely when at home. You cannot tell you father (even today) about your disappoinment in love (o.k., some of us can).

When I was all alone with my JA obsession (ie: before P&P2 and austen-l and the P&P2 support group), Persuasion was my favorite of six well loved books. Sometimes I think P&P and Persuasion are at opposite ends of a picture of life. P&P is about what life can be - youthful and joyful and determined and optimistic. Persuasion is about coping with life when it is less than it can be. Anne 'coped' while I was learning to cope. She coped gracefully while I fussed and fretted. Besides, JA told me in chapter one that Anne would always be valued by people of 'real understanding'. Since I wanted to be in the group, how could I do less than value Anne?

Wow, what a rich topic. Thank you Hil. There is so much here, I can only chip away at it in little pieces: Elizabeth's sparkle, wit, confidence, humour, forthrightness, and refusal to bow to convention for convention's sake, especially in matters of the heart, make her irresistably modern and attractive. __ Yes. I wonder if the character was received well when the story was first published. Or has this kind of courage always been heartwarming to women readers?

I've always liked Anne Elliot too. I particularly liked the way she stood up to her father and insisted on seeing her friend, Mrs Smith. She's certainly not lively or fiery like a Lizzy or even an Emma, but she possesses strength of mind and strong principles. One of the things I like about the book is that we see her become even more strong and assertive throughout the novel:the trip to Lyme and her level-headness and calmness of manner when Louisa is hurt. The Captain's notable line: "no one so proper, o capable as Anne!" By the end, you really are rooting for the two to find their way back to each other. She deserves happiness.

Could the differences in ages of the two heroines be a factor to consider? Especially if we are discussing the differences of Elizabeth and Anne's strength of character. Lizzy is not yet 21, had never been truely in love and of a more dominanting, playful character perhaps typical of a present-day teenager with still a lot to learn in life but thinking herself already sufficiently matured because of a bunch of idle sisters to compare with and her father's obvious prejudice in her favour (Jane excepting). Anne is (if I recall correctly) already 27. When she was first in love (at about Lizzy's age with Wentworht) was perhaps a less confident lady as a result of the lack of attention at home, (her frivously self-centered family) no friend that was mentioned except Lady Russel who has always been like a mother to her. I do dearly love both heroines and appreciate their differences.

Amy2: 'And I don't think there's anything wrong with her sticking to her guns and not abandoning her one true love for just anyone else who comes along.' Neither do I. Dina: The question of regarding these heroines through modern eyes is interesting, and for me, shifts around all the time. I too would not swap my freedoms. Certainly life for women had so many more strictures. Does that make achievement of happiness more difficult? Probably. Then again, people are often more comfortable with the security of knowing the 'way things are, and are done'(at least you know what you are bucking when you want to buck the system!), and one often hears people grumbling that that i what is missing in society today. Maybe its one more arguement for appreciating the way the heroines deal with their lot, rather than trying to weigh up whose lot is worse. 'I really think Lizzie was lonely when at home.' She, and Anne, and Jane would have taken to the net like ducks to water! Inko: Love those Crofts! They are like Mr. And Mrs Gardiner, don't you think? Katy: Sometimes I think P&P and Persuasion are at opposite ends of a picture of life. P&P is about what life can be - youthful and joyful and determined and optimistic. Persuasion is about coping with life when it is less than it can be. I agree. I would have fussed and fretted too, Katy. Amy: I wonder if the character was received well when the story was first published. Or has this kind of courage always been heartwarming to women readers? I would have assumed it was, but its an interesting question, too. Maybe HC can shed some light on how 'Persuasion' was recieved at the time. Cassandra: 'She deserves happiness.' Indeed. That is the reason I didn't mind Wentworth's public announcement of their engagement in the film. For once Anne was acknowledged properly, even if all the prawns didn't have the sense to understand why!

Katy: Besides, JA told me in chapter one that Anne would always be valued by people of 'real understanding'. Since I wanted to be in the group, how could I do less than value Anne? Reminds me of a line from Jane Austen's Frederic & Elfrida, where a certain poem engraved on a tombstone is described in the following terms: ``These sweet lines, as pathetic as beautifull, were never read by any one who passed that way, without a shower of tears, which if they should fail of exciting in you, Reader, your mind must be unworthy to peruse them.'' (This is pretty funny in context -- see http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/fredelfr.html .) Amy: Elizabeth's sparkle, wit, confidence, humour, forthrightness, and refusal to bow to convention for convention's sake, especially in matters of the heart, make her irresistably modern and attractive. __ Yes. I wonder if the character was received well when the story was first published. Or has this kind of courage always been heartwarming to women readers? Yes, I think that the early reaction to Lizzy, what there is of it that has survived (remeber that Pride and Prejudice was not a blockbuster runaway smash) was mostly positive. But one lady did comment something to the effect that Lizzy was insufferably pert and ill-bred. (I don't remember anything more about this -- it was probably in Southam's book, as would be a lot of the other contemporary reviews and reactions; see http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/austfbib.html#fbibl415 .)

Oops -- Frederic and Elfrida is actually at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/fredelfr.html .

I agree with you, Barbara...Lizzy was in a situation of power, where she was loved and respected, even if by imperfect people. She had enough presence of mind and a strong enough influence on the household to assure that she would never be encroached upon, intentionally or unintentionally, but those she lived with. Anne's not a pushover, as Cassandra states, but she wasn't mature enough to understand her own heart when she was young (Lizzy is hyperbolically mature and lucky for a twenty year-old, and in this respect, naturally makes Anne more realistic and believable), nor was she allowed the time and space to develop Lizzy's independent resoluteness. I'm sure it's the familial context...Anne's father, Sir Walter, and her sisters Elizabeth and Mary (the hypochondriac!) are all hideously alike in that they are excessive and spoiled...there is no other "sensible" sister to back her up (be it a Jane or a Lizzy...Anne could stand in for either), and no "sensible" parent to blunt the tendecies of the flightier one. And Lady Russell, well-meaning as she may be, obviously didn't understand Anne or her situation. Somehow, Anne is relegated quietly to the background in her family (by nature, situation, or both), lost in the useless shuffle of a houseful of selfish individuals...kinda like Fanny. Forgotten, neglected, and even directly put down, she becomes, like Fanny (and Lizzy too!), an observer of folly. As she is personally separated from that behavior, she doesn't develop it herself, but she witnesses quite enough of it to understand what morality and propriety are. In Fanny's situation, the correlation bet een her treatment and temperament is a bit easier to understand, as she's a poor relation - an interloper - with at least one distinct enemy in the house, but I think the situations are similar enough to show that habit on both sides of the insensitive treatment is cyclical and ingrained. People got used to dumping on them.

The other factor that makes Anne differ from Lizzie is household wealth. Even though Sir Walter is a spendthrift and they all have to remand to Bath, she still comes from a higher social strata where someone like Elizabeth carries on like a Princess of the realm. Not an option for any of the Bennet girls. . .

Amy: I wonder if the character was received well when the story was first published. Or has this kind of courage always been heartwarming to women readers? In the foreword to my copy of _Mansfield Park_ there is a discussion of how, when MP first came out they was a great disappointment in the book. People were quoted as saying ''Where has the author of P&P gone?'' The biggest beef was about the difference in the characters in the two books. It would seem that even then, men and women appreciated strength in a woman, because Lizzy was much prefered to Fanny. Sorry I am that I am at work and cannot quote you from the text, but that is the gist of it.

Mari, it would seem your preface-writer is exaggerating the uniformity of the reaction a little bit... See http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/opmansfp.html

The introduction in my Penguin classics edition of Persuasion has some interesting notes which draw another parallel between Anne and Lizzy. It suggests that in the cancelled chapter, Austen was dissatisfied in the way that Anne and Wentworth were reunited because Anne was too passive. She had been responsible for throwing away her own happiness, so to speak, by breaking up with the Captain, and to set things right she needed to be instrumental in their reconcilliation. Although her speech to Harville w s not intended to convince Wentworth to come back to her, she had gone as far as it was socially acceptable to go in letting her true feelings for him be understood, without, in effect, openly declaring that she still loved him. This is similar to Lizzy's situation. She, too, has been responsible for seemingly missing a chance at happiness by being prejudiced against Darcy and rejecting his proposal (although he deserved it!) She must also be instrumental in their reconcilliation because she was partly responsible for their separation. Darcy has already done his part at Pemberley by showing, through every civil/Wickahm situation. Lizzy does her part through her speech to Lady Catherine when she comes to Longbourne (sp?). Like Anne's speech to Harville, Lizzy's words to Lady Catherine are not intended to bring Darcy back to her, but are about as far as she can go without going to Darcy herself and telling him she loves him.

'but she wasn't mature enough to understand her own heart when she was young' Kali, I think she does, (more than Lizzy, whose maturity we see developing throughout P&P). Thats what made bowing to Lady Russel's advice even harder.

Hil said in her intro: I always feel that at this point Lizzy is at a crossroads. If events didn't happen to unfold as JA tells them, and Lizzy had had her fill of rocks and mountains, and returned to life with her family, there is a good chance she could have become bitter towards society and men, and followed in her father's footsteps, seeking entertainment and survival in irony. Do you think this is how JA herself survived? How some of us here survive?

Amy said: Do you think this is how JA herself survived? Yes, Amy, but she put her irony and view of society into her books not only for her own entertainment but for ours -- 200 years later!!

Hilary, you're right - it was very difficult for Anne to give Frederick up - however, she did it in the mind that it would be better for both of them to separate. She was honestly persuaded to believe that her love was wrong, and that the match would end in failure - that it would be a mistake, and that she and Wentworth would both live to regret it. She was persuaded to believe that she would eventually get over it and move on to bigger and better things...and then never did. Her first, hasty impulse to marry the man had been right. Unlike Lizzy, Anne knew the truth but failed to properly recognize or understand it...whereas Lizzy, had she known the truth from the beginning, would have never erred on the side of prejudice. Lizzy's faults of understanding lie in circumstance, while nineteen-year-old Anne's lie in her own inability to properly assess her situation and the validity of her feelings (immaturity). Does that make sense?

There are things about engagements in JA's times that I do not understand but which I assume would help us understand why Anne and Wentworth did not just settle into a long informal engagement as young people would today The conversation in bath between Mrs. Croft and Mrs. Musgrove deploring long engagements (as unsafe?? why??) and Capt. Benwick's situation seem to argue that one should not enter into an engagement until one is in a position to marry soon. I would appreciate any enlightenment anyone can shed on this.

I'm obviously no expert in engagements in general, let alone nineteenth-century ones, but it seems to me that the understanding that came with an engagement (those that are officially blessed, at least) was almost as sacred as marriage itself. I know that puritan marriages, for example, were essentially legally-binding, verbal contracts - in this light, aren't engagements merely verbal marriage contracts? Anyhow, it would seem that the reasons for preventing or breaking off an engagement would be the s me as those for preventing or severing an actual marriage.

Jane Austen sister Cassandra was engaged to Tom Fowle for a year or more. He was a private chaplain to Lord Craven. He wanted to have income to support their furture family. He died from fever in 1797 in San Domingo, Cassandra never married.

Kali - " Lizzy's faults of understanding lie in circumstance, while nineteen-year-old Anne's lie in her own inability to properly assess her situation and the validity of her feelings (immaturity)." I think Anne did assess the situtaion but from lady's Russell's view and probably from the view of society's concensus at the time. Wentworth still had his fortune to make and the fact that Darcy had 10K meant that Lizzy only needed to think about their competibility - of course attraction was another story. Since a man was expected to have sufficient finances to support the marital state , Anne had 'valid' reasons to give heed to Lady's Russels advise, being the one person closest to her. He had come back rich from after the war and her regret was profound - she abandoned him for the wrong reasons, acceptable as it was to the practical minded. Though I'm not suggesting that Anne or Lizzy were materialistic. It just worked out that way. What do you think??

Thanks for the topic Hilary and everyone else's posts! I too love Anne Elliot but Elizabeth is my favorite. Just a few comments. I don't think Lizzy is in danger of becoming too cynical. She, like all of us, gets down but she boucnes back. For instance after finding out Wickham is not at the Netherfield Ball, JA says "But Elizabeth was not formed for ill-humour; and though every prospect of her own was destroyed for the evening, it could not dwell long on her spirits; and having told all her grie s to Charlotte Lucas, whom she had not seen for a week, she was soon able to make a voluntary transition to the oddities of her cousin..." Also when Lizzy is talking with her Aunt Gardiner regarding the (then) Jane/Bingley mishap, Mrs. Gardiner says, Poor Jane! I am sorry for her, because, with her disposition, she may not get over it immediately. It had better have happened to you, Lizzy; you would have laughed yourself out of it sooner. In addition to having this pleasant disposition, El zabeth also has family members (Jane, Mr. Bennet) who love and cherish her. Conversely, Anne has no one. I know Lady Russell is supposed to care for her but as I have been re-reading Persuasion I am becoming less convinced of Lady R.'s concern for Anne. For Lady R. to make two critical mistakes in judgement regarding Anne's welfare (Wentworth and Mr. Elliot) doesn't sit well with me. She also urged the family to go to Bath, with full knowledge that Anne really disliked Bath. I simply cannot imagine someone who loves you and putting your best interests first could make mistakes like that. Yes I know in life people we love can advise us poorly but regarding important decisions like marriage; it seems a mistake not be taken lightly. I believe the key lies in the fact that Lady R. does not put Anne's interests first; she relies on what she sees in appropriate and customs of the day. Also Lady R. has this spiteful glee when she learns that Wentworth has attached himself to Louise Musgrove. If her first concern was Anne, she would have held him contempt for hurting Anne. But this, I believe, further reveals Lady R.'s primary concern - herself. What I love about Anne is that she is able to persevere in spite of being alone and unappreciated; lesser people would not have been able to cope.

I agree with those who have said this is a great topic - with the potential to branch many times if it could! With regard to a direct comparison between Anne Elliot and Elizabeth Bennett, I also think that the differences in their behaviour arise from differences in their personality and, to a lesser extent, situation. Elizabeth isn't stronger than Anne, she's more outgoing, self-assured and lively, especially at the start of her novel, but as has been pointed out Anne is just as strong, in her more contained way. Lizzy's more extroverted character does fit better with the 'ideal' some modern feminists currently promote, but I think this is an error of judgement on their part made because the strength of the extrovert is more obvious. Today as in the Regency it's a mistake to make assumptions about anyone's moral or social strength based on their manner. In considering the 'modern' response to JA's heroines, I remembered one ofmy own first responses to P&P2; that even in 1812, some men were attracted to strong women because of their strength, not in spite of it! I don't know why it took me this long to notice it - I first read P&P in 1972, but in those days I didn't know anything about regency society and had little interest in 'gender politics'. Thinking of the rest of JA's work, I then noticed how little the differences between the society of the time and ours intrude; despite the laws and 'official' social rules of the time, we see strong, and weak, good, bad and indifferent amongst men and women. Despite some major changes in the trappings, people seem to be much the same.

"Today as in the Regency it's a mistake to make assumptions about anyone's moral or social strength based on their manner." Wickham being the prime test case, right? I agree with Anna -- I think Anne is just as strong as Lizzie in her way; she just isn't as outgoing. But BECAUSE Lizzy is so much fun; so lively; so 'out there' in her way; I confess I like her better!

Again, I must ask if Lizzy really is the "extrovert" we all make her out to be...she is certainly assertive when need be, but she's not a go-getter. In that respect, the Anne of her late 20's and Lizzy are the same...but where Lizzy is free (and feels free) in making opinions (and expressing them when necessary), the young Anne is most certainly not. She allows herself to be swayed and discounted by others...she has a lack of faith in herself which is less a gender-political issue than a flaw of youth. In this way, I think Anne is a more realistic personality.

The Austen heroines we see as being more like modern women are the ones who have some type of power. Some of you agreed with what I said earlier about Lizzy being in a position of power because of the love and support from her family. (Sometimes I think her father treats her like the son he never had). In the Elliot family, it is Elizbeth who appears to have this same power, but we see Anne's power emerge once she leaves Kellynch and goes to live among those at Upercross who respect and value her (sister Mary not necessarily included!) Emma also has power, and in fact professes her intention never to marry because she lacks neither wealth or consequence (read: Why do I need a man?) No discussion of gender politics could be complete without raising the issue of entailments. The fact that JA put so many of her heroines in a predicament because of an entailment I think gives us her opinion about that custom! How many women were forced into a situation that was less than desirable because of such a legal arrangement? This is something that makes Lizzy seem all the stronger. She knows perfectly well that she and her mother and sisters will be out on the street as soon as her fat er dies. She certainly has no reason to hope (at first) that someone of Darcy's social echelon would want to marry her, and yet she must follow her judgement and refuse Mr. Collins, despite what that may mean to her future. I think the fact that she rejects Darcy's first proposal shows that she is not interested in being rescued or looked upon as a charity case, so to speak. She can't accept him until he is prepared to come to her as an equal. (BTW, how do you think Mrs. B would have reacted if she fo nd out that Lizzy turned down Darcy's first proposal ;) )

Katy - I live in a culture where the engagements are short (usally 3 months). This is for the moral implications of sex before marriage: "Dangerous"(?). Could this be it? I don't know how often/much these Regency period couples were allowed to be alone together, but that is a thought. She was honestly persuaded to believe that her love was wrong, and that the match would end in failure - that it would be a mistake, and that she and Wentworth would both live to regret it. I am not sure I agree Kali. I think LR was just trying to convince Anne it was not "the Elliot way" for her to marry a man "who had nothing to recommend him but himself" (or something to that effect). I don't think Anne thought it would end or fail. I think she was trying to do her duty, even though she loved him desperatley. I think she rejected Charles because she still loved Wentworth, even though Louisa says it was "Lady Russell's doing". Why was he good enough for Mary if he wasn't for Anne in LR's mind? Karen I loved you thoughts about Lady Russell I hadn't really thought of her being totally selfish...

Anne didn't end the engagement merely for herself or for her family...she did it for Wentworth, too...she thought she was doing what was best for both of them....she thought she was averting some sort of terrible mistake by deniying the validity of her own judgement: "The belief of being prudent, and self-denying principlally for his advantage, was her chief consolation..."

I agree with whomever said that Lizzy is in a position of power as her father's favorite. "Lizzy has more quickness than her other sisters." Although, I agree with Kali-I don't think Lizzy's liveliness and wit denote a extrovert. Like her father, she enjoys making sport of their neighbours, all that is pompous and ridiculous: people who take themselves and their social position too seriously, like Lady Catherine de Bourg. Emma is also petted and indulged by her father and Mrs Weston; "never could I expect to be so truely beloved and important, so always first and right in any man's eyes as I am in my father's.....I believe few married women are as half as much mistress of their husband's house as I am of Hartfield." In contrast, I have always seen Anne as a sister to Fanny Price. She's ostracized in her family. Elizabeth is clearly her father's favorite and Anne's faded bloom and thiness are the only things Sir Walter comments on. Even sister Mary thinks she is Anne's superior by marriage and motherhood: "You who have not a mother's feelings are a great deal the properest person." Madly in love with Wentworth at the age of 19, then, but still unsure of herself, I can understand(although I can't identify) why she was persuaded by Lady Russell(her one constant confidant and supporter) not to marry him. At the time, she wasn't confident or mature enough to trust her own heart and judgement. Another thing: Louisa's exclamations that she's not so easily persuaded and subsequent fall at Lyme always seemed, for me, to be JA's way of justifying Anne's decision to heed the advice of Lady Russell, in favour of prudence and caution. Any thoughts???

Part of the beauty of Anne's and Wentworth's rematch is the fact that it survived the test of rupture and time. Perhaps, if they had married years earlier, their love would not have attained the truth and richness that it did upon being rediscovered. Perhaps Austen was trying to show that Anne and Wentworth, like Louisa, needed time to grow up before they jumped into something that, in their inexperience with it, might prove to be unreliable.

I think Lizzy _is_ an extrovert, not merely because she's witty in private but because she is so in public; is greatly at ease among strangers, unlike someone we know; plays the piano with little fear at parties, even though she knows she's no Horowitz; stands up immediately to imposing figures like Lady Catherine and Miss Bingley; does whatever she wants, regardless of her mother's wishes -- as in walking the 3 miles to Netherfield, refusing Mr. Collins, etc. The only area she reins herself in on is rom nce -- in not expressing her feelings, but I think this was _society's_ constraints acting on her, not necessarily her choice.

Wow! What a lot of interesting things to respond to. 'Do you think this is how JA herself survived? How some of us here survive? ' I think there are elements of this in both instances. Sometimes survival for the short term, sometimes survival for the long haul. -------- 'I don't think Lizzy is in danger of becoming too cynical. She, like all of us, gets down but she boucnes back.' I think if we judge Lizzy on the metal she shows in the rest of the book, this is true...she is tenacious where her own happiness is at stake. But she, like all of, could suffer one too many obstacles. -------- I agree that ' Anne had 'valid' reasons to give heed to Lady's Russell's advise,'and ' people we love can advise us poorly but regarding important decisions like marriage'. I think LR advised Anne as well as she knew how, and in that sense was not being selfish. It was just Anne's misfortune that LR's outlook on what was best was narrow and did recognise her own. 'She allows herself to be swayed and discounted by others...she has a lack of faith in herself ' I can't quite agree with this. I think she weighs up duty against her own feelings, and duty wins. Later she still feels she made the right decision. I agree with these: ' I don't think Anne thought it would end or fail. I think she was trying to do her duty, even though she loved him desperatley.' ..she did it for Wentworth, too...she thought she was doing what was best for both of them.. 'Louisa's exclamations that she's not so easily persuaded and subsequent fall at Lyme always seemed, for me, to be JA's way of justifying Anne's decision to heed the advice of Lady Russell, in favour of prudence and caution.' Indeed...and there's a whole new thread. ---------- Love Anna's comments: 'the strength of the extrovert is more obvious. Today as in the Regency it's a mistake to make assumptions about anyone's moral or social strength based on their manner.' 'even in 1812, some men were attracted to strong women because of their strength, not in spite of it!' ' how little the differences between the society of the time and ours intrude; despite the laws and 'official' social rules of the time, we see strong, and weak, good, bad and indifferent amongst men and women. Despite some major changes in the trappings, people seem to be much the same.' ------- And I like this: 'The Austen heroines we see as being more like modern women are the ones who have some type of power.' Whether the power resides in an introverted or extroverted personality does not matter. Maybe, too, it is as well to remeber that even Meyers-Briggs allows a scale between the extremes of extrovert and introvert. Lizzy maybe a 60% extrovert!

There were long engagments, but they were usually prolonged for financial reasons (normally people wouldn't marry until there was some semblance of an income sufficient to set up a household...) An engagement wasn't really legally binding (like medieval "betrothals" were), though suits for "breach of promise" were possible. But an engagement was taken very seriously socially, and in quite a few cases of breaking off an engagment, unless there was an obvious external reason for ending the engagement, or the man had obviously acted like a real cad, then there would tend to be a lot of rumors, especially about the woman, mwho might find her reputation more or less blighted...

Perhaps Austen was trying to show that Anne and Wentworth, like Louisa, needed time to grow up before they jumped into something that, in their inexperience with it, might prove to be unreliable. Very thought-provoking, indeed, Kali. I have always felt that maybe they didn't know each other as well as they thought they did at the time they were first engaged. Had they truly, would they have ever been apart, no matter what the circumstances?

Exactly, Susan. That's what I was trying to convey...if they really knew eachother...and if they really understood the nature of their attachement, they would have never separated.

I felt Jane Austen might have wanted to show up the value of putting love before prudential considerations. Lady Russel being all pragmatism and Anne/Wentworth being so much in love. Having done her family duty Anne lives to some degree of regret, but still reassuring herslf that she had done rightly by all of them. Anne was 'pushed' into early prudence. Then, she meets the Crofts, Mrs Croft has sailed the oceans, been through thick and thin and lived to tell the experience. The Crofts have a love story of their own. That is exactly Anne's missed opportunity. (Though I guess Wentworth would have had to be Captain for that arrangement to have taken place on the ship.) But it was the essence of a mature-love relationship (that Kali mentions above) that it had to grow into. Is this going round in circles?

When I think of Anne Elliot, I get a mind picture of someone who is very introverted and self-contained, but with the inner recognition of what is important to her own beliefs, and what is unimportant. She can be easily swayed by things which don't really matter to her, but quietly and restrainedly stands firm on those things that do matter to her. I wish I could be more like that.

If extroversion = morality, then everyone in Hollywood is a saint!

Amy2 - Thank you for so eloquently stating your understanding of why Elizabeth appears to be more extroverted (in resp. 36). Your statement 43 gives me a chuckle as well. Kali and Susan - I agree with your impression of Anne and Wentworth's early relationship (and the misunderstandings) however I am usually more inclined to fault Wentworth for this. True LR persuaded Anne but if Wentworth knew Anne he must known her heart. Even after eight years, it still takes him most of the novel to realize how steadfast Anne is. Hilary - Yes LR is pragmatic but don't you think she should have created situations so Anne would meet others. When the Elliots move to Bath, she suggests this but why not sooner or bring Anne someplace. Selfish may not be the right word but LR has her own agenda for Anne regardless of what Anne thinks; it is difficult for me to call that type of control, love or concern.

Sorry about that -- I must have Friday fingers, i.e, they're as tired as I am! Karen, I agree that Lady R's motives are suspect and rather un-friend-like. It's sad that's she's about the only friend Anne has -- poor dear has no one who really cares about what's best for her.

'I wish I could be more like that.' oh yes! 'If extroversion = morality,' LOL. But who says it does? LR does have her own agenda for Anne. But I still think it is well-meant. It says more about LR's values and lack of understanding than anything else.

I honestly think LR is a creature of her environment and understanding. How many of us have had mothers with good intentions, but have given us advice that was totally wrong. I know I have! LR was taking the place of AE mother after her death. I just adore AE. I think her an excellent creature. is not JA timeless...

%is not JA timeless... I think we're partial proof of that, Leslie! %-)

Yes, she is a legend in my book.. JA's perception of human failings and characteristics is remarkable. For instance, LR behaves typically of someone who has taken on the protective role to promote the well being of those under her charge. It turns out to Anne's disadvantage, since it is tinged with materialism and not based on true understanding. See thinks she is doing her best for Anne, but it is misdirected, somewhat. If LR had 'loved' Anne as a mother and not only as her guardian, I could have liked er more in the novel..

Yet I can't be too harsh on Lady Russell. Lady Russel stands in the place of Anne Elliot's mother. She has more maturity. Knows more about the world. Know's Anne has no independent fortune and knows her father's spendthrift ways. Lady Russell's motives may be mixed, but she seems to mean well. Objectively speaking the marriage would not have been a happy one, I think, had it taken place before Capt. Wentworth had made his fortune. Anne has no allies at this point, neither in fortune, nor in society. She could do little else but refuse him. Best at this time for her and him. Capt. Wentworth soon forgot about her during his rise to command status in the RN. But memories of her sometimes intruded upon his conscious life and perhaps his dreams, I would think. Anne's feelings continued on much stronger during the years of separation. Perhaps JA is right, women suffer more during these kinds of life experience than do men. Maybe their feelings remain stronger, even after" hope is gone". Might be an interesting thread for discussion.

Maybe their feelings remain stronger, even after" hope is gone". Might be an interesting thread for discussion. I agree -- it could be very interesting indeed! :-)

Anne even states when she talks with Harvill (spll) that women cannot help it, they live quiet lives at home. Men go out in the world and "do". I don't think it is only "when hope is gone" in their case. Hell, I work full time and still spend too much time thinking.

I think in JA's days, it was inevitable that women would suffer more and think more. They had little else to occupy them and what they did have was usually quiet, sedentary work that led to further thinking. Capt. Wentworth, on the other hand, was busy commanding a ship and would have little time to sit and reflect over his loss. I don't think the same holds true today, where both men and women are busy and might either both reflect or forget, or drown their sorrows, whatever. I think I just lost my idea!

I don't think it is only "when hope is gone" in their case. Hell, I work full time and still spend too much time thinking. Agreed. Tongue-in-cheek case in point: Relationships Contrary to what many women believe, it is fairly easy to develop a long-term, stable, intimate, and mutually fulfilling relationship with a guy. Or course this guy has to be a Labrador retriever. With human guys, its extremely difficult. This is because guys don't really grasp what women mean by the term relationship. Let's say a guy named Roger is attracted to a woman named Elaine. He asks her out to a movie; she accepts; they have a pretty good time. A few nights later he asks her out to dinner, and again they enjoy themselves. They continue to see each other regularly, and after a while neither one of them is seeing anybody else. And then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to Elaine, and, without really thinking, she says it aloud: "Do you realize that, as of tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly six months?" And then there is silence in the car. To Elaine, it seems like a very loud silence. She thinks to herself; Geez, I wonder if it bothers him that I said that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our relationship; maybe he thinks I'm trying to push him into some kind of obligation that he doesn't want, or isn't sure of. And Roger is thinking: Gosh. Six months. And Elaine is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of relationship, either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so I'd have time to think about whether I really want us to keep going the way we are, moving steadily toward x I mean, where are we going? Are we just going to keep seeing each other at this level of intimacy? Are we heading toward marriage? Toward children? Toward a lifetime together? Am I ready for that level of commitment? Do I really even know this person? And Roger is thinking: So that means it was, let's see, February when we started going out, which was right after I had the car at the dealer's. Which means, lemme check the odometer, WHOA! I am way overdue for an oil change here. And Elaine is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe I'm reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our relationship, more intimacy, more commitment. Maybe he has sensed -- even before I sensed it -- that I was feeling some reservations. Yes, I bet that's it. That's why he's so reluctant to say anything about his own feelings. He's afraid of being rejected. And Roger is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the transmission again. I don't care what those morons say, it's still not shifting right. And they better not try to blame it on the cold weather this time. What cold weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this thing is shifting like a damn garbage truck, and I paid those incompetent thieves $600! COMMUNICATIONS GAP And Elaine is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be angry too. God, I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I can't help the way I feel. I'm just not sure. And Roger is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90-day warranty. That's exactly what they're gonna say, the scumballs! And Elaine is thinking: Maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a knight to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right next to a perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person I care about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A person who is in pain because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic fantasy. And Roger is thinking: Warranty?! They want a warranty?! I'll give them a damn warranty! I'll take their warranty and stick it right up their... "Roger," Elaine says aloud. "What?" says Roger. "Please don't torture yourself like this," she says, her eyes beginning to brim with tears. "Maybe I should never have... Oh God, I feel so..." (She breaks down, sobbing). "What?" asks Roger. "I'm such a fool," Elaine sobs. "I mean, I know there's no knight. I really know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no horse." "There's no horse?" asks Roger. "You think I'm a fool, don't you?" Elaine says. "No!" says Roger, glad to finally know the correct answer. "It's just that ... It's that I ... I need some time," Elaine says. (There is a 15 second pause while Roger, thinking as fast as he can, tries to come up with a safe response. Finally, he comes up with one that he thinks might work.) "Yes," he says. A BEFUDDLED BEAU (Elaine, deeply moved, touches his hand.) "Oh, Roger, do you really feel that way?" she asks. "What way?" asks Roger. "That way about time?" says Elaine. "Oh," says Roger. "Yes." (Elaine turns to face him and gazes deeply into his eyes, causing him to become very nervous about what she might say next, especially if it involves a horse. At last, she speaks.) "Thank you, Roger," she says. "Thank you," says Roger. Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed, a conflicted, tortured soul, and weeps until dawn, whereas when Roger gets back to his place, he opens a bag of Doritos, turns on the TV, and immediately becomes deeply involved in a rerun of a tennis match between two Czechoslovakians he never heard of. A tiny voice in the far recesses of his mind tells him that something major was going on back there in the car but he is pretty sure there is no way he would ever understand what, and so he figures it's better if he doesn't think about it. (This is also Roger's policy regarding world hunger). ANALYSIS TIME The next day, Elaine will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of them, and they will talk about this situation for six straight hours. In painstaking detail, they will analyze everything she said and everything he said, going over it time and time again, exploring every word, expression, and gesture for nuances of meaning, considering every possible ramification. They will continue to discuss this subject, off and on, for weeks, maybe months, never reaching any definite conclusions, but never getting bored with it, either. Meanwhile, Roger, while playing racquetball one day with a mutual friend of his and Elaine's, will pause just before serving, frown, and say: "Norm, did Elaine ever own a horse?"

Susan, that is remarkable. Thank you.

Susan - ROTFLOL. The meaningful discussions we have not had!

perfect! absolutely perfect!

Several people have stated that they view Anne as weak (or lacking in strength) for breaking off her original engagement to Wentworth. But does strength only come from following one's heart no matter what? Does it not also show great strength of character to put aside one's feelings for the sake of prudence? Where the heart and the head are in conflict which takes more strength to defy? As JA wrote the story, Wentworth was sucessful, received his promotions, and made a tidy fortune over the years he was away from Anne, but there was no way she could have known that he would do so. As he said himself, it was lucky he didn't go down in the rickety and unsafe Asp, which would have left her a young widow with no money. He felt she should have had enough faith in him to go ahead anyway, but a military career, particularly in the Royal Navy, takes a great deal more than just force of ch racter or even ability. If he failed to make the proper connections (I'm sure it helped that he was brother-in-law to an admiral), or if the uncontrolable sea was unfavorable, or if he lost one of his battles, he would not have been sucessful and the marriage would have been a disaster. Intellectualy she was right to refuse him until he could be in a position to be able to securely provide for her. That he didn't apply for her hand when this obsticle was removed was a weakness of his, due to damaged pride and anger at her for her prior hesitations. If he had renewed his offer, we could then see that she made an absolutely proper decision to wait until he was in a position to take care of her. I think it took great strength for her to turn away from a love strong enough to last for over eight years of seperation. I think much of this boils down to which you have more value for: the head or the heart. For me I value rational and careful thought tempered with sufficient feeling. I think many here value the passions of the heart tempered sufficiently with rational thought. How you view Anne's strength and decisions will depend very much on your own personality and values.

It is hard to think back past Susan's delightful senario and get back to the male vs. female response to breakups. Years ago, I read that the shyer, more introverted partner will have more trouble with the breakup than the more outgoing partner. Maybe this is the 20th century replacement for Anne's statement that women remember longer. As a shy woman (a blessed quarter of a centruy past my last painful breakup), I cannot exactly be sure (remember) where society's retrictions on women ended and my own restricitons on myself began. But I am watching teens just learning to date, and I see boys ready to propse at 12 and 15 (the one who proposed at 12 is now 14 and still in love with the same girl), boys who have only one friend (the girl friend) and who take it very hard when the breakup occurs, boys too young to drive who have maintained steady relationships for over a year. One of my neighbors has practically adopted her son's girlfriend over the last year. These boys do value their relationships with their girl friends! Maybe these boys will change and get more aloof as they get older. This is the only dating age group I know well at the moment, so I cannot predict the situation five years from now. But I wonder if maybe we are remembering the 'ones to got away' and forgetting the ones we got away from when we talk about men and their disregard for relationships.

Susan, that was absolutely marvellous! LOL for quite a while!!;-)

Susan, I'm still in stitches - isn't that so real a scenario and ending with the women analysing it to pieces and the guy wondering about the horse!!

Glad you guys liked that! I took it in to work, and everyone, men and women alike, loved it -- all the guys said it accurately described women, and all the women said it was spot on for guys, but everyone thought it was funnier than hell! When we say they don't get it, we're talking about the horse, aren't we? %-)

For me I value rational and careful thought tempered with sufficient feeling. I think many here value the passions of the heart tempered sufficiently with rational thought. I don't know if I should feel slammed or be impressed. Either way, put well. One of the things we discussed at my JASNA meeting on Saturday was the way that Wentworth actually came into all this money. We decided not to call him a pirate but a privateer. Subtle difference. I guess this was the excepted form for a seaman to get his fortune. In this day and age it would be frowned upon. I don't think Anne was weak. You just need to read the two pages (in my book) where the explanation of the break-up is and you can understand where she is coming from. She did it for both of them. I don't agree with her reasons and the way her character appears to be, I don't think this would have failed. I still think she would have been happy and, as the book says, Wentworth was sure he would secure a fortune. I guess I just don't see Anne being the Lady of the Manor. I think she would have been happy anywhere, as long as she was with Frederick. Do you think he would have taken Anne with him, like the Admiral took Sophie? Maybe this is just my passion of the heart talking.

I forgot to say: Susan, loved the story. Already copied it into my wordprocessor. A friend sent me a comic from the Washington Post a few months ago. It shows a woman working at a computer. She reads: Instant Companion, matchmaking services for mature singles. Fill out qualifications for your ideal mate.She writes: Seeking a trustworthy male who enjoys a simple life..long walks at sunset ...content with cuddling..someone who'd be loyal to one woman. She posts the letter and walks away with a sigh. Later her door bell rings. When she answers there sits a smiling dog with a rose in his teeth. She takes him for a walk and thinks: What the heck.. at least he's vaccinated. So, are we getting cynical?

I've often wondered what JA thought about the way naval men made their fortunes, too, Dina. And forgive me for repeating this, but it is one of my favorite fantasies -- that the Captain's ship escorts Napolean to his second exile. Anne's on board and counsels Nap as to the proper blend of prose and poetry for one in exile.

I would have never thought of that. Amy, you're brilliant!! Do you think she recommended Marmion or Lady of the Lake?

Well, as long as it's my fantasy, I'll say she pointed him to Blake.

Susan's #54 clearly describes how many men deal with relationship talk. While 90% of the time most men arn't thinking of anything; the other 10% of the time is usually spent dealing with some concrete problem with strictly defined perameters. Not relationships! Men want a relationship with a woman, we just don't want to have to talk about it.

Nice idea, Amy. To Susan's piece, and others: Its funny, and there is a bit of truth in it, as in all stereo-typing. But why stereo-type in a discussion that is precisely about not stereo-typing? I am caught between despair and anger.

]why stereo-type in a discussion that is precisely about not stereo-typing? I am caught between despair and anger. Hil, I understand what you mean, but sometimes humor leads to understanding. No offense was intended.

I know no offense was meant, Susan. Thanks.

-- that the Captain's ship escorts Napolean to his second exile. Anne's on board and counsels Nap -- in French of course. Anne's fluent French is why Wentworth was chosen for this task!

I can't stand Lady Russell. Lots of people -- including Hilary's fave critic -- have mentioned Anne's strength, her enviable way of keeping herself intact with no love or support. I think she learned to do this from her mistake in listening to Lady R and refusing the Captain. We talk a lot about how we, as a group or type, think too much. Anne was our patron saint. What did she have to do but reflect on her turning point? I could be wrong, but I like to think she mulled it all over -- and over and over. And decided at some point during those eight years that she would be her own person no matter what. I love her.

There we have it in print - an opinion from a man (Carl) about Susan's exclusive story. 90% of the time they're not thinking about anything...... and before that gets me into trouble - I'm sure the 10% makes up for it. I hope I'm not alone when I say that I really enjoyed the adaptation of Persuasion - it was just as I pictured the novel to be and Capt. Wentworth with his disinterested, arrogant air when he first meets Anne at breakfast in Mary's kitchen after so many years. My heart broke for her and him. They were all so well cast.

Susan! LOL, or should I say LOVL, laughing out _very_ loud. Have you read John Gray�s book "Women come from Venus, men come from Mars"? It�s about just this. There is a desciption in the book about Elaine (if I may borrow your names?) coming home from job. She�s worried, she wants to talk about her problems. Roger doesn�t understand. He puts om he�s little "servicehat" (I don�t know the right word, because I read the Swedish translation) and comes with a solution to the problems. Elaine doesn�t want any s lution, she wants some sympathy, some comfort. She wants to _talk_, over and over again until it feels better. Roger wants to deliver a quick solution and get on with things. As Carl descibed it: men want to have a relationship with a woman, they just don�t want to talk about it. In some ways we are so different. Or as one of my friends use to say: Men, they�re just not like ordinary people....

Susan, that was great. You should send it to a magazine

Amy, I agree. I can't stand LR. So obsessed with decorum. I think we can all say that certain perspectives of decorum did not matter to AE. I think there were areas that were important to AE, but it was not all consuming. Thank goodness she did not marry that snake Mr. Elliot. Perhaps we could have a little fun though, and start a Kellynch Writers Guild...

'We talk a lot about how we, as a group or type, think too much. Anne was our patron saint. What did she have to do but reflect on her turning point? I could be wrong, but I like to think she mulled it all over -- and over and over. And decided at some point during those eight years that she would be her own person no matter what. I love her.' How beautifully put. Thanks. I don't think(!) theres much wrong with thinking a lot.

I can't stand LR either. I always felt that her interest in Anne wasn't motivated at all by what she thought was good for Anne, but rather by what she wanted her best friend's daughter to be. It was all wrapped up in Anne's resemblance to her mother and LR refused to see beyond it. She pushed Anne toward the model she kept in her head of her friend. It reminded me of those women who have decided that their daughter will be the prettiest/brightest/most popular student and push them toward that goal, wi hout regard for talent or temperament or desire.

Ditto to Amy and Margaret. I too hate LR, and I agree she doesn't ever think of Anne's best interests. That's why I'm glad Anne decided to be her own person and listen to her own heart the second time around!

Well, finally, where were we all when this topic first started. Lady Russell haters united and be counted! Down with that kind of persuasion!

Susan, your piece went all around my office today. Much profuse giggling, even accompanied by tears! It's all so true! Thx for a good laugh!

Yes indeed Amy...

Yes indeed Amy...

OOPS....

And decided at some point during those eight years that she would be her own person no matter what. (Each of these lines should really be written vertically on a separate page with paintings which are described as "meditations" inserted at appropriate points, so you will have to imagine that part.) You, too, withhold the very things you complain are missing from the world. The space for what you want is already filled with what you settle for instead. You live for others, and wonder why you're never fulfilled. When you give up your own truth to win at someone else's game, everyone loses. Your relationships reflect your fears and limits. How can anyone ever give you what you won't allow? Every time you settle for the unacceptable you suffer a small death. Everything and everyone in your life is there by your choice. Release your snapshot images of relationships. Life is a motion picture. How can anyone ever love you for who you are if you become someone else to be with them? The opening lines/pages from Illuminations by Stephen C. Paul and Gary Max Collins. ISBN 0-06-250681-1 And along similar lines - similarly presented and illustrated: Life incites you to run from the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth If you care to. Life invites you to live by the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth If you dare to. Question: how can you tell the guru in the black robe from the guru in the white robe? Answer: the guru in the black robe keeps you wondering whether it is safe for you to go off into the sunset without him. the guru in the white robe smiles serenely as you bid each other farewell. having taught you to become your own guru. Snippets from Life is A Gift by Rusty Berkus and Christa Wollan, ISBN#0-9609888-0-7 - and also by the same duo: Appearances ISBN# 0-9609888-1-5

Thank you, Joan.

I too don't like Lady Russell. It's hard to like someone who meddles in other people's lives, especially when their meddling has such a terrible effect. In Yiddish, we call such a person a yenta, and it's not a great thing to be thought as.

Thanks, Joan. 'care' and 'dare'....hmmmm

You don't like Emma, then, Amy2?

I like Lady Russell. I think she suffers from JA's creation of a heroine who has lived in solitude with a broken heart for eight years. For this situation to happen, poor Lady R must be very ineffective in her mothering. Even though Anne is my favorite Austen heroine, I have always considered her situation to be a bit of a stretch. It is very hard for me to believe that such a talented and lovely young woman could have been so neglected by everyone who might have helped her and would have been unable to make any efforts of her own to break out of the grinding routine of life at Kellynch and Uppercross. It makes no sense that Lady R would not have gotten her away from home more often. But I love the story, and I adore Anne, so I accept the situation as JA presents it. Lady R learns from her mistakes and reforms her opinions.

Kali, I know this one is your fave, but I generally don't like EMMA. My faves are P&P, Persusasion, and Northanger Abbey. Now despise me if you dare!

Joan, those are wonderful -- and very thought-provoking...

I�m not sure, but I think that I liked Lady Russell better in the book. In the film I think she�s a bit cold. I can�t feel that she really cares for Anne. Compare the warmth between Anne and Mrs Croft in the Pumproom with the talks she has with Lady Russell who is supposed to be her dearest friend. I�ve started to read the book again to see if I remember right. Anyone else who thinks the same?

I can understand the resentment some may have to Lady Russell, but I beleive she acts more like a MOM to Ann than anything else. And like a MOM, she wants whats best for Ann, what SHE thinks is best, according to HER values : someone with money, connections, title, good breeding and good looks. Her only fault is to disregard what Ann wants, so how ever wrong LR's actions are, they were kindly meant and surely out of concern and a sentiment of care toward our heroine. We can see a lot less caring and support from her own family. Lucily Ann grows older and makes her own decision, but should she keep a grudge toward Lady Russel, like many of us should keep grudge to someone who tried to do right by doing wrong?

That Bingley Thing You Do should be our antemn

Jane - I too liked Lady Russell better in the book; she was more fleshed out, and there was more of an emphasis on her genuine concern for the family, and for Anne in particular. In the book I was more forgiving of her character faults, for it seemed to me she was putting a lot of pressure on herself to be to the Eliots what Lady Eliot had been before she died - the voice of reason. In the film, she appeared very selfish, and deserving of the angry words Wentworth gave her.

Tracey, you're right. I just recently finished the book again and LR is much more fleshed out in it, versus the movie. In the book you read her thoughts, which are concern for Anne and disgust with her father and older sister for ignoring her. Her thoughts are much more concerned with Anne's welfare in the book than can be shown or is shown in the movie. Maybe that's why she seems rather cold. I'm just glad that Anne didn't seek her advice the second time around!!;-)

I don't think Anne would have been swayed a second time anyway. When she sees Lady R refuse to acknowledge Wentworth on the street in Bath - LR pretends she has been looking at curtains - Anne 'sighed and blushed and smiled, in pity and disdain, either at her friend or herself.' I think at this point she really acknowledges to herself how shallow and at variance to her own happiness are Lady R's values.

Hilary, I agree Let us not forget that LR wanted AE to marry Mr. Elliot. What a disaster that would have been.

Hilary, I don't think it matters to the interpretation of Lady R., but I couldn't tell from the curtain scene whether Lady R. had seen Captain W. or not. I thought that Anne's disdain refered to Lady R if she did see him, OR to herself if Lady R. didn't (laughing at herself a bit for thinking that everyone would find Wentworth impossible to miss). Jane P.S. I love the thoughtful threads you have been starting and fostering lately.

I archived the other Persuasion thread. Here are the recent messages from it: Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 119 of 128: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (02:08) * 4 lines Serena: Was there an earlier adaptation to the 1995 Amanda Root's Persuasion? The BBC did a version of it in the 70's. We had a Virtual View of it earlier this year, the topic should still be up if you care to read our reviews. The consensus is that it was pretty bad...stick with amanda Root and Cairan Hinds! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 120 of 128: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (21:46) * 1 lines A family friend purchased the 1995 version, hated it, and so gave it to me without hesitation...can you imagine? What generosity! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 121 of 128: Ann (Ann) * Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (21:49) * 3 lines I hate the description on the back of the box: "A young couple's stormy romance scandalizes English society in this acclaimed adaptation..." No it doesn't! Society barely pays any attention at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 122 of 128: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (22:18) * 1 lines How about "flirtatious fun"? I didn't catch that... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 123 of 128: Susan (Susan) * Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:06) * 1 lines kali, you are lucky indeed! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 124 of 128: Katy Kendall (kendall) * Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (02:34) * 1 lines I have this 1965 paperback edition of Persuasion with a gothic horror front cover and quotes on the back cover from Henry's teasing tale of terror to Catherine as they drive to the abby. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 125 of 128: Amy (Amy) * Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (03:59) * 1 lines I think Henry has that NA cover scanned in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 126 of 128: Ann (Ann) * Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (16:39) * 1 lines Persuasion a gothic tale of horror? I suppose it is all in how you look at it ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 127 of 128: The MYsterious H.C. (churchh) * Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (06:45) * 0 lines ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 128 of 128: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (06:47) * 3 lines Katy, is this it? -- http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/nhabgoth.jpg http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/nhabgoth.html

Johanne, I agree with you about LR. She really did think she was doing what was best for Ann, both in advising Ann not to marry Wentworth, and later in advising her to marry Mr. Eliot. Remember, she feels herself as trying to take the place of Ann's mother in these matters, and tries to do what she thinks Ann's mom would have done. Look who Ann's mother married...Couldn't it be that there is a bit of a generation gap here, and LR believes that a good marriage does not necessarily include love, but for nn, Love is what would make it a good marriage. Isn't this true of almost all JA's heroines? Fanny would be making a good match in Henry, as far as society was concerned, and so would Lizzy, had she accepted Darcy before she loved him.

Or Collins for that matter! Yes.

Perhaps Lady Russel has stepped into a mother's shoes without the necessary experience of being the true mother of Anne. She is anxious (in a quick-fix type of way) that Anne should be taken cared of and for life, by marrying well and so the early Wentworth is not suitable in terms of financial security. LR only wanted Anne to be marriaed into the lifestyle she was accustomed to. That cannot be too evil an intention, can it??

An interesting point Serena. It rather puts LR into a different perspective.