Respect, Esteem & Gratitude

Perhaps gratitude or some such emotion was a necessary part of this love. Possibly because of the financial condition of the Bennet family at this time, more than any gracious behavior on the part of Darcy. Respect is necessary no matter what. Can one be esteemed and loved at the same time? Eliz. is searching for a reason to marry Darcy. She forces respect, esteem and gratitude together to forge herself a love of sorts. The passions, however, somehow seem lacking. I think Ms Bronte has something to say about that.

Carl - I must differ concerning your "Eliz. is searching for a reason to marry Darcy." Indeed, she has no trouble refusing him the first time he proposes, and has no real reason to believe he will renew his addresses, especially after the whole Lydia affair. We see, however, that she has become interested in Darcy *before* she learns of his role in getting Lydia married, and begins to worry that he thinks ill of her. I don't believe that Charlotte Lucas, who is forced into forging a love of sorts for Mr. Collins, would have exhibited this behavior. I see these two marriages as forming a contrast between forced and genuine esteem and love. And as for passions, I think Austen gives us hints all along as to the passionate nature of Lizzy...

I think Carl may have stumbled on an important word: respect. I think that Lizzy discovers in Derbyshire that Darcy has learned to respect her--which was certainly lacking in his first proposal. From his repect for her, comes her gratitued for him.

I remember catching this line the third (or fourth) time I read the book. In the version this was noted so I checked the notes. I do not have my book on me at this time as I have lent it to a friend so I'm going on memory here... The notation was derived from a book popular in JA's time. The author, a man, wrote that gratitude is the original foundation of a woman's affections (love) for a man. Gratitude because he chooses/wants/desires her above all other women. This evolves into esteem and ultimatel into love. My inital response was one of repulsion: GRATEFUL?!?!? Grateful for the interest expressed by or the love of a man??? The horror. The horror. My second reation, was one of introspection. Indeed, the night I met my husband I was with my friend (the one with my book) and as she was getting married two weeks later my sole objectives that night were to get her drunk and get her home. Four of us were out that night - all blondes, all drinking champagne. A receipe for attention, I admit, but me ting men was not on the adjenda as I had just had 9 teeth pulled, many gaps in my smile and a full set of braces. With braces & a toothless smile at 28 I believed that because some/most/many men are so shallow that I would not have a date until the braces came off at age 30. A gentleman, however, introduced himself. Did I feel gratitude? Yes. Gratitude that of all the ladies with full smiles in the bar he chose me. I esteemed him largely due to his deep character which, in an age that emphasizes perfect bodies and perfect smiles, prefers the "aura" (his word, nor mine). I fell in love with him. We married last November. So, yes, if I am to be honest with myself, gratitude was a foundation. A skeptic, like Lizzie (a man who loved her despite her position in life could not be sensible), I was slow to trust and thus love this genuine person. By the way, the friend who has my book just gave birth to her first last week, so I doubt I will see the book soon. I also lent my videos to a disadvantaged soul who had not yet had the pure pleasure of viewing this film. I thought I could survive, or at leat that I would have more time on my hands, instead, I find myself suffering from withdrawl & I may have to purchase another copy of the novel! But I digress, I although I am not fully comfortable wit the idea of being grateful, in my case I must own i as truth. Cleo

How can we ever name all the emotions which constitute "love"? I think Elizabeth (as portrayed by Jane Austen, of course) is trying to understand her feelings for Darcy as they change over the period covered by the novel. Respect and esteem had come to her as she realized her prejudices were wrong. Gratitude also exists -- "not merely for haveing once loved her, but for loving her still well enough, to firgive all the petulance and acrimony of her manner in rejecting him." Not gratitude for his helping her family, but for treating her so respectfully when they meet again. Maybe one of the problems we have with the word gratitude is an implied sense of obligation. But gratitude does not mean being in debt or owing the other person. It means being thankful or pleased. Elizabeth is thankful and pleased with Darcy's behavior toward her and the Gardiners when they meet at Pemberley & Lambton. Gratitude for someone loving/liking you does not cause love. In fact, if the other person is not someone you do not like then their affection for you can feel a bit weird. Respect and esteem, it seems to me, would be necessary for a solid love to grow. Gratitude probably enters into more of our relationships than we realize -- I know that I am grateful when my friends put up with my out-of-temper moments!

DTBT strikes again. In my next to last paragraph, I meant to say "if the other person is someone you do not like" -- nothing like no double negatives neither, NO?

I am not sure about this gratitude thing. I mean yes I would expect Lizzy to be grateful that Darcy still loved her despite everything that had happened and went through a drastic change for her, and then actually proposed a second time which shows true love, but I don't think it was or should be an asset to the love they shared.

P.S. Cleo, Congrats on the marriage, and your friends new motherhood!

It seems to me that true gratitude in a relationship arises mainly as a response. We may feel grateful (or be pleased) that our partner is talented or has easy social graces; but Lizzy feels a deeper sort of gratitude because she is responding to Darcy's forgiveness. Darcy is not holding a grudge because of her unjust accusations. She senses this most strongly at Pemberley. Within a single hour, she glimpses Darcy's true character through the housemaid's eyes, and then directly experiences his forgiveness when, after his surprising arrival, Darcy pays her unexpected courtesy and attention. But Darcy feels just as grateful toward Lizzy. Grateful, first of all, for teaching him a proper lesson in humility, but more importantly: grateful for her forgiveness. Within half an hour of that same meeting, he tested her by requesting the honor of introducing his sister. Her acceptance proved to Darcy that she had forgiven him. Darcy later admitted this to Lizzy after she accepted his second proposal: "'My object then,' replied Darcy, 'was to shew you, by every civility in my power, that I was not so mean as to resent the past; and I hoped to obtain your forgiveness, to lessen your ill opinion, by letting you see that your reproofs had been attended to. How soon any other wishes introduced themselves I can hardly tell, but I believe in about half an hour after I had seen you.'" Darcy feels strongly that he had been more in the wrong than she: "Your retrospections must be so totally void of reproach, that the contentment arising from them is not of philosophy, but, what is much better, of innocence. But with me, it is not so." That both Darcy and Lizzy could forgive the other, and openly acknowledge gratitude for the other's acceptance, speaks of a mature healthy relationship that has bright prospects indeed. So respect, esteem and gratitude are clearly very important to a relationship; but I would add one more: forgiveness.

Bill -- marvelously written. Thank you for adding Darcy's gratitude to our discussion; we seemed to have focused almost entirely on Elizabeth's. And yes, forgiveness is important in all relationships, most important indeed.

"Your retrospections must be so totally void of reproach, that the contentment arising from them is not of philosophy, but, what is much better, of innocence. But with me, it is not so." My copy of P&P has the word ignorance in place of innocence, and it has always given me problems. I like innocence much better. Ignorance didn't make much sense and sounded like too much of an insult in the middle of a very tender scene.

Ann, in my Norton's critical edition the words in the text are "of ignorance" with a footnote #. The footnote states: "In Cassandra Austen's copy of the novel, she changed "ignorance" to "innocence" (Oxford edition 2.397), so I presume it depends on which edition one has. I also prefer innocence to ignorance, although I never took ignorance as an insult--more in the way one says "you didn't have all the facts".

Well written, Bill. You have given me much food for thought and clarified Darcy's statement for me. I do not think I have ever apprehended it as clearly as I do now (my edition uses 'ignorance'). Thank-you!

Kathleen and Bill thanks for your comments. I think you both articulated the importance of gratitude (and love, respect, etc) in a loving, healthy relationship.

There's nothing wrong with gratitude, too many people now feel that being loved is their "right." It's not, it has to be earned. I am grateful/thankful every day for the people in my life whom I love, and who love me.

To Bill's assertation that a helthy relationship/marriage requires respect, esteem, gratitude and forgiveness, please let me add communication and romance. My mom always maintained that romance & love are two seperate entities in a relationship. I must say I agree with her. It is too easy to "stop running once you've caught the bus" that it takes a conscious effort to haul out the candles, chill the wine and dim the lights on a Friday night at home over a plate of meatloaf & mashed. With respect to Cheryl's point on love not being a "right", and that she is "grateful" every day...I agree...I have the love of good friends, family and a husband, and I thank God for each of them. I am "grateful" that despite my faults, they continue to respect me, esteem me & love me.

Cheryl, maybe that's part of our larger society, where nothing is earned and everything is a "right." As far as P&P -- It must have been quite a surprise to Lizzy to find Darcy so gracious upon their meeting at Pemberley in light of her unjust accusations. She had no idea her "reproofs had been attended to" in the intervening months since Hunsford, so this mut have been a real shocker!

Bill that was beautifully expressed. Carl, not sure if you're viewed P&P1, where Lizzy's transformation of disgust of Darcy to one of appreciation and respect is wonderfully dramatised. She literally explains the progress in that adaptation. Whereas in P&P2, it would come across as having seen his 'grounds' at Pembermy. Though this too is not too bad a thought. Considering only Darcy has only ever been a figure to be seen in public places or at the Netherfield, there is no insight into his own person there. But when you see the place he lives in, have lived at all his life, it gives credulence to his 'pride' and 'airs'. He has tremendous responsibility in his estate to both business and the people that reside there. He becomes a real person to her at that point. It's like seeing your boyfriend/girlfriend's room for the first time, it gives insight into their lives.

Serena, I agree with you about the importance of Lizzy's seeing Darcy at his home. Lionel Trilling defined snobbery as "pride of position without pride of function," and that's the difference between the Darcy we see among strangers and the Darcy we see at home. When Lizzy gets a glimpse of him as landlord, master and brother, and sees how well he handles his responsibilities, she begins to understand why he takes himself so seriously. But I think it's his love and concern for Georgiana that really bowls Lizzy over and makes her fall in love. Darcy is more of a father than a brother to Georgiana, and I know that whenever I see a man behaving like a good father to a child--especially a girl--it conquers me as nothing else can. I think that's what happened to Lizzy.

Does anyone else feel that perhaps P&P1 captured more of the 'respect, esteem and gratitude" than P&P2?

RE: 237:9 - Well said, Bill!