Caroline Bingley (aka Duckface)

Amy2, Could you have hit the "Forget" topic button by mistake? I still can see the old thread.

I think I'm starting to hallucinate! I lost sight of the thread, went back, and lo & behold, there it was! Sorry 'bout that. If you want to blow this topic away, please do.

Poor, dear Caroline... - K ;)

The snobbish attitudes so well represented by Caroline are a prime reason why I generally dislike much material in this genre. However, what makes Pride and Prejudice stand out, is how well Jane Austen crafted her other, less ostentatious characters like Elizabeth Bennett. Regards, Trenton.

But Trenton, don't you think that Caroline's attitudes provide us with a wonderful counterpoint to JA's more likeable characters? Don't you relish seeing Caroline get her comeuppance and Elizabeth emerging with the prize of true love? Welcome to the conference. Myretta

I personally loved the discomfort of Miss Bingley every time Darcy confirmed his feelings for L. with one of his taciturn remarks. She is definitely a character you love to hate!

I agree that Caroline is absolutely required; antagonists are essential, and Miss Bingley serves this purpose perfectly. My previous response wasn't clear: I was trying to say, in general terms, I usually don't enjoy works in this genre because some novels simply over-fill their pages with snobbish characters, predictable plots and ornate scenes. Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, however, stands out because her primary characters (Elizabeth and Jane) prevent the entire work from falling into the infamous "snob-trap." These characters make the work more appealing, bring a much needed balance, and are very compatible with c ntemporary senses/tastes-- despite the fact that Austen created them both over 180 years ago. Regards, Trenton.

Trenton, ever read novels by Victor Hugo or Balzac ? Agreably surprising and too close to their 200th anniversary.

Another Frenchman who created incredibly real characters (many of them venal): Emile Zola.

Caroline is one of those characters you love to hate. And I think that must be a hard thing for an actor to play. I mean I usually sympathize with any underdog, but cheering against Anna Chancellor's Caroline, didn't even give me one pang of remorse. And come to think of it, cheering against her in 4 Weddings made me feel even less guilty, so what is it about Duckface that makes it such a joy to hate her?

I like Caroline.

Arnessa ] I usually sympathize with any underdog, but can she be considered an underdog? Caroline doesn't get Darcy but she's still rich, handsome and arrogant; the reason I love to hate her is that it's nice to see someone like that finally get the snub they deserve

Terry: What is it about her you like?

"And I think that must be a hard thing for an actor to play" Actually, most actors that I've seen interviewed about it enjoy playing the villain - you get out all your aggressions and do things you would never do in real life.

Right, Anna, she's not really an underdog, Lizzy is. Caroline is the one who's had a charmed life. I guess it's easy for me to feel bad for the person who's designated the perennial loser. I always rooted for elmer fudd against bugs and for tom against jerry and for wil e. coyote aganist that pesky roadrunner. It's fun to see people you don't like lose, but usually at some point, I turn around and feel sorry for them. (sniffle) I just can't help it. But with Caroline, that didn't happen, Darcy would snub er and snub her and snub her again, and I felt glee each and every time. Maybe another sign of what a great writer JA is.

Terry???? Do tell how could you like Caroline?

Terry???? Do tell how could you like Caroline?

That's a good point, Arniess -- Caroline Bingley certainly has been handed all the goodies by life. And I think it's her absolute snobbishness -- contrasted with Lizzy's much more natural bent -- that makes us hate her so. I mean, Lizzy isn't doing anything but _existing_, and Caroline still zings her every chance she gets. Lizzy must wonder initially what she's done to rise this stranger's ire. . .

Terry -- I will answer your question. I personnally believe that everyone has been too hard on Caroline. What I got out of the novel and mini series wasn't that she was a villian, I believe she was indeed a victim (Oh boy, I just know that you all will chastise me for this little essay!) She was a desperate woman. Do not deny it ladies, haven't you ever done anything dispicable when you saw that someone whom you have been attracted to (maybe even thought that you loved) was attracted to another? As s e saw Darcy moving closer towards Lizzie she said and did very nasty things which made Darcy even move further away from her. As I said before, she was a desperate woman grasping at straws. Just my thoughts on this matter -- please do not banish me from here forever.

Candace -- I think we can allow you to like Caroline and live! I hear what you're saying -- her jealousy & desperation drove her over the edge. The irony of course is that every disparaging remark she made about Elizabeth to Darcy only served to increase the latter's affections for the former.

Would anyone like to stroll down P&P2BB memory lane and see some old posts from the "Slapping Miss Bingley" thread?

Oh, do post them Amy! That was such fun!

I would dearly love to see these! And add my own "virtual" slap!

I didn't find everything. But here is some of the slapping Miss Bingley thread: Kathleen I know it's necessary to invent some dialogue and omit other pieces of from the novel. Having said that, however, I do wonder at the omission of the last bit of Miss Bingley's response to Darcy's "fine eyes" comment. In the novel she manages to maintain her composure and tease; in P&P2 she comes across as personally insulted or desparate. What do you think? Mich I've always thought it was to placate those of us watching who wanted Darcy to march right over and give her a big slap across the face. This of course would not be how dacry would handle it but I would have cheered. Cheryl I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who wants to slap the s***out of Miss Bingley. Wouldn't that be a great money raiser at a Jane Austen themed based carnival? "Slap Miss Bingley: only one pound!" Think of all the monies that could be raised for the Bennet girls doweries! Ann While we're getting physical - how about spanking Lydia. Lilian You can count me in on that as well. Especially how Lydia just giggles like a silly little girl and not really knowing (or caring) what she put her family through by running off with Wickham. Also, sometimes I fell like thwacking Mr. Collins especially when he has that silly smirk on his face. Amy Oh, man. This is getting out of hand, isn't it. Tell you the truth, I see "Slapping Miss Bingley" as the name of a thread and start giggling. And to think I just told my 12-year-old he would have to tone down the violence on his site. Nobody must be killed or hurt, I told him. Have the phasers shoot music or jokes or something. Well, let's try to reconcile this. I don't think I want to really injure any of these characters. They are too entertaining. I don't think we love to hate them. I think we think we hate them but would miss them terribly if we rendered them non-existent or too disabled to play with. Anne It's not so much wanting to hurt Lydia -- I just think that she is a perfect example of 'spare the rod and spoil the child'. I know that in the book, once she is away from Lydia's influence and more under that of Lizzy, Kitty becomes a more worthwhile person. Marsha Yes, but Kitty was not as ungovernable as Lydia. (Though if maybe someone taught Lydia earlier?...) But then we would have lost half the fun! Joan True, true - we must all keep in mind that the whole of this plot turns on the intricate relationships among all of these characters, and if any of them were significantly different, it would end up altering the plot. Kathleen Such violence being advocated! While I do not disagree with the sentiments I suspect that these women are punished by not being completely happy in their marriages (assuming Miss Bingley ever traps a man). However, you have omitted any punishment for Lady Catherine -- Elizabeth & the Gardiners polluting Pemberley, indeed! Joan Ah, but she is punished - by eventually having to eat her own words and visit Pemberley after its having thus been polluted, and by Lydia (whose reputation is the one that Lady C. claimed would pollute Pemberley), as well! ;-) The punishment indeed fits the crime! Amy Yes, no doubt that is the just and most appropriate punishment, but let's put her in a carriage with Lydia for a not-so-easy distance, with Lydia bumping her hat box into Lady C's space and interrupting her every pronouncement and disagreeing about where to stop for the night and giggling at double entrendres and snorting like a little piggy all way home. Cheryl My, what a nasty vindictive bunch we are turning out to be. I love it. But I am sure it is all in the interest of seeing justice done. P.S. What about forcing Mr. Collins to reside in the 800 pound fireplace- after it had been fitted with shelves, of course. Happy thought indeed! Mich If lady Cathy already get's her's how about teaching Mrs. Bennet some manners and a bit more sense. When I see her at Netherfield talking with her mouth full... Marsha What about making Mrs Bennet, Lydia, Miss Bingley, and Lady Cathy be only in each other's company for a fortnight (lock the house doors and don't let anyone leave) That's the worst that I could think of! (Except I feel sorry for the servants. Cheryl Sounds great, but leave them with no servants. They would quickly learn humility if they had to dress, cook, clean and generally fend for themselves. Of they cannot learn to get along with and be kind to their fellow woman, they will wind up killing each other. Either way, the world at large will become a much better place. (I can't believe I just wrote that. This is getting out of hand. Perhaps I need to be locked up with them. Perish the thought!)

"if they had to dress, cook, clean and generally fend for themselves" I think they would even have to learn how to dress each other. I am not sure a lady would be able to dress herself in the clothes they wore. wouldn't it be something to see them discovering that they had other unique abilities - that Miss bingley could bake a cherry pie and Lady Catherine with her quick eye for identifying what is wrong could quickly put a room in order? does any one agree that Mrs. Bennet might be the first to begin to actaully be useful in theis situation?

Good point, Katy. I agree. Mrs Bennet may be nervous and silly and generally cuckoo, but if I had to choose one of the three to be stranded with, I'd choose her in a minute.

Mrs. Bennet is mostly harmless.

Ann: "Mrs. Bennet is mostly harmless." Like a certain blue planet orbiting an insignificant star in the unfashionable end of the Milky Way Galaxy as described in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Love it!

I agree with Candace...Caroline is to be pitied...

Really? I just can't stand the woman. She's unable to control her own baser nature -- her jealousy of Lizzy is of the most spiteful, petty kind. Why is she to be pitied? She has it all -- wealth; education -- and she's squandered it in her own vindictiveness. I also get the impression she has no genuine feelings for Darcy -- to her, he's just a catch with a big house. I guess I do not have the sweet temper of Jane. . .

I'm am with you, Amy2, as it seems I very often am. Slap slap slap!

Oh, no! Not the slapping thread again!! Let us all show our better breeding (compared to Miss Caroline Bingley, anyway), and just "cut" her, in a proper etiquette sort of way. Miss Manners would be so proud of us. I do agree that Caroline does not deserve our pity, however, and she probably would not want it -- she might ask if anyone has a rich brother or male cousin though. ;-).

Col. Fitz. is available.

Elaine: Col. Fitz. is available. I should not wish such a harpy upon such a sweet man!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants to horsewhip that woman! If justice were served, she'd end up with Mr. Martin the Farmer from EMMA!!!

I guess that leaves Col. Fitz for Anne de Bourgh. There is potential in this arrangement.

Col. Fitzwilliam and Anne de Bourgh----I've thought about the colonel many times and this is probably his best match. If Anne were to die (in childbirth or just 'cause she's so sickly), then he would be free to marry the much-improved Kitty, therefore not attaining the Bennet he wanted, but the better of the remaining two. And this turn of events would just KILL Lady Catherine!

See Arnessa's sequel plot: http://www.bluemarble.net/~amyloo/wwwboard/arseq.html

]she'd end up with Mr. Martin the Farmer from EMMA!!! what did Mr Martin ever do to deserve that? Unfair to Martin! I say.

Well, if we are going to cross over into other books to find Caroline a mate, then I say she should marry John Thorpe! He is as shallow as she, interested only in the external and superficial...and there is always the happy thought that his continual talk of his rig and horses will put her into a permanant stupor from whence she can do no harm! ;-)

]d Caroline a mate, then I say she should marry John Thorpe! Happy thought indeed! :-)

That's pretty funny, Cheryl. Too bad Mr. Eliot is too old for Caroline -- then she could be bored to tears by constant descriptions of physiognomy.

// to find Caroline a mate, then I say she should marry John Thorpe! He is as shallow as she, interested only in the external and superficial...// I'm with you, Cheryl. Oh, yes she'll make him a proper wife, keep him on his toes I suppose, where he deserves to be! And their marriage would be somewhat similar to the Elton's, don't you think? Such low and illmannered breakfast conversations those two witches would endulge in with their caro sposo's (Is that plural correct , Donna? I guess not.)

Cari sposi? By the way, there's a poem about the "sisters Bingley" on WWW page http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/othpoems.html (click on the "Patricia Shepherd" link).

//Cari sposi? // LOL And yes, sposi has an italian ring to it, and I admit 'caro sposi' is not at all likewise entertaining.

Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst defended! A certain individual has written the following about Caroline Bingley and Louisa Hurst: "Their powers of conversation were considerable. They could describe an entertainment with accuracy, relate an anecdote with humour, and laugh at their acquaintance with spirit."

Henry, I do recognize that anonymous individual as none other than our own Miss Jane Austen. Perhaps she was a bit fairer to her own characters than we are. I guess we all just hate Caroline because of her unguarded & frequently nasty jealousy of Elizabeth. "Hell hath no Fury like a woman scorned." If Caroline isn't scorned, she's at least ignored by Mr. D.

I've always thought that when Caroline Bingley and Louisa Hurst "laughed at their acquaintance with spirit" it was with a mean spirit. Otherwise why not laugh with their acquaintances instead of at them. I think JA was skewering them in her own polite, genteel way!!;-)

I'm sure that when the gruesome twosome "laughed at their acquaintance with spirit" that it was, indeed, a mean spirit. But JA had a sharper tongue than either of them. Can you see her putting this into the mouth of any of her characters:Mrs. Hall, of Sherborne, was brought to bed yesterday of a dead child, some weeks before she expected, owing to a fright. I suppose she happened unawares to look at her husband.(From her letters.) Makes you wish she'd created a haracter like herself--waspish and lovable.

Yeah, some of those letters are really off the edge as far as sharp-tongued wit. I'm very glad JA didn't give Lizzy _all_ of her attributes!

While I dislike Caroline as a rule, it is possible that despite her bravado she had low self esteem, hence the cutting down of Lizzy, by whom she feels threatened. Lizzy is confident and easy-going, and maybe Caroline, remembering that the family's wealth came from trade, seeks to distance herself from that past by ridiculing it. I must add, I thought the just desserts marriage of Caroline to John Thorpe was hilarious!!!!!