New Roles for Austen Actors

The inspiration for this topic came from seeing a picture of Jennifer Ehle after she won the BAFTA. She was laughing, had a huge, messy grin spread out all over her face, and her short blonde hair looked (sorry, I'm not trying to be bitchy) rather stringy. It was probably the violent contrast to her appearance as Lizzy that made me think she looked rather vulgar. (Please, I mean no disrespect at all.) And I thought: Eliza Doolittle. I could just see her, from that picture, as the loudmouthed gutters ipe that Eliza is at the beginning--and of course we know that she can play the perfect lady that Eliza becomes at the end. I'd love to see her play the part, either in My Fair Lady or (if she can't sing) Pygmalion. As for Henry Higgins, why not Colin Firth? I'm thinking here of Leslie Howard's Higgins (from the 1930s movie), a younger man than Rex Harrison's, a spoiled brat who never grew up. I like the thought of Higgins and Eliza being closer in age than Harrison and Julie Andrews/Audrey Hepburn were, too: adds more sexual tension. Any other suggestions?

Several of you have praised the novel Possession in the best books topic. I enjoyed reading this book as much as any I can remember. I no longer have it so I can't remember all the names, sorry. But what about CF to play the Victorian poet? Perhaps someone can name an Austen actor for Christabel, but I kept picturing Kristen Scott Thomas in the role. Another A.S.Byatt novel I'm now reading, The Virgin in the Garden would be fun to cast. Keep in mind I'm only in the middle so I don't know if my ideas would hold up. CF as Alexander, S. Harker (?Jane in P & P2) as Stephanie. I'll think some more about the other characters. Any ideas?

Anne3: The inspiration for this topic came from seeing a picture of Jennifer Ehle after she won the BAFTA. She was laughing, had a huge, messy grin spread out all over her face, and her short blonde hair looked (sorry, I'm not trying to be bitchy) rather stringy. Is this the picture to which you refer? It is certainly a contrast to the photo of her in Vanity Fair - where, though it is in black and white, it appears that she has gone brunette again.

No, Joan. It was another picture. She looks quite pretty in that one, not at all vulgar.

Looks rather like Livia, to my mind

Has anyone seen the classic Alfred Hitchock film, Notorious, with Cary Grant and Ingrid Bergman? I think CF and JE would be perfect in the roles of Alicia and Devlin. Great sexual tension. Also, how about Jeremy Northam, in the Charles Boyer role, in a re-make of Gaslight? He makes great villians. And Amanda Root in the Ingrid Bergman part?

I would like to make a movie of Georgette Heyer's "The Grand Sophy" with Anna Chancellor as Sophy- she deserves to be a "nice" scheming woman for once.If you want,CF could be her cousin Charles(it would be wonderful to see how he plays a man with an explosive temper)I'd put Dawn French in as Sancia.

I cast a vote for Colin Firth as the Scarlet Pimpernel. Do you think Jennifer Ehle could do a passable French accent? If so, I vote for her as the female lead. Also, what could we do with Tale of Two Cities?? Colin? Jeremy??

Jeremy Northam and Colin Firth as the Scarlet Pimpernel, most definitely. Imagine Mr Firth : They seek him here, they seek him there, those Frenchies seek him everwhere (flick of the wrist here). Jennifer Ehle as Mrs Miniver, perhaps?

I love Edith Wharton. How about the House of Mirth with JN as Seldon and Kate Winslet as the tragic Lily? I can almost visualize Jn standing over her bedside, felled by fate. Or what about the Glimpses of the Moon with Jn and KW as Nick and Suzy Lansing-a beautiful young couple with many connections but no money who marry, the sole purpose being the fun they can have sponging off their rich friends for a blissful honeymoon year. The usual romantic complications ensue. And finally, Thomas hardy's Return o the Native deserves a lush, cinematic tratment. CF would make the perfect Damon Wildeve.

I'd like to see Firth play an American Southern gentleman.

I cast a vote for Colin Firth as the Scarlet Pimpernel. Do you think Jennifer Ehle could do a passable French accent? If so, I vote for her as the female lead. In my dreams, Cf and JE have already done this. ;-) I'd like to see Firth play an American Southern gentleman. Yeah! Doc Holliday, with Patrick Swayze as Wyatt Earp. Then I could drool double-time.

"I'd like to see Firth play an American Southern gentleman." Dare I hope you have one of the more favorable sterotypes of a southern gentleman in mind? When I am ill at ease at a meeting with strangers, I always listen for an educated Mississippi accent among the crowd. I always know that people with that accent will go out of their way to help a lone female feel welcome and at ease.

Re: #10 - Yes, Cassandra, YES!!! :)

Caroline, does Jennifer really appear in your dreams? I would have thought you'd want CF all to yourself!

Re 152:9 Johanne....I just realized that Percy would be a perfect combination of Valmont and Darcy for Firth.....we must get in touch with the studios...maybe you and I could produce! 'Is he in heaven, or is he in ____, that demned elusive Pimpernel' Mrs. Miniver....an inspired thought! And Amy, I feel just plum wrhetched...but I can't figure what American Southern Gent you might be pinin' for.

Re 152:9 Johanne....I just realized that Percy would be a perfect combination of Valmont and Darcy for Firth.....we must get in touch with the studios...maybe you and I could produce! 'Is he in heaven, or is he in ____, that demned elusive Pimpernel' Mrs. Miniver....an inspired thought! And Amy, I feel just plum wrhetched...but I can't figure what American Southern Gent you might be pinin' for.

I think it might be Clark Gable, Gary Cooper or Gregory Peck.

What about Firth as one of Pat Conroy's troubled South Carolinkies?

Amy: What about Firth as one of Pat Conroy's troubled South Carolinkies? Ooh! What an intriguing idea...that has real potential...

Caroline, does Jennifer really appear in your dreams? I would have thought you'd want CF all to yourself! Yes,Susan, she does, or did. She was a bit of a pest. I got rid of her by writing on topic43....... As for keeping CF to myself, well, that's impossible. I see him in the supermarket, in the garden, in the basement,in crowds, everywhere.He smiles when I smile, when my husband smiles, dogs smile at him;-). I hear his voice in the forest, in the bath,even in the classroom. The man is everywhwere:-)

Caroline: The man is everywhwere:-) oh my........;-)

What if we do the MORTE D'ARTHUR with Colin as Lancelot & JE as Guinevere? And wouldn't it be interesting to see these two in yet another version of JANE EYRE? It would also be fun to see them as the medieval lovers Heloise & Abelard.

In this same path : Would they be to old for Tristan and Iseult ?

Kali-I think we should pool our resouces together, contact JN's agent, and make our own movie! One question-was your enthusiasm based primarily on the House of Mirth suggestion? That's my favorite-everytime I re-read that book, I see our dashing Jeremy Knightley!

This seems too obvious, but CF and JE as Heathcliff and Cathy. And how about an adaptation of Kate Chopin's the Awakening with Emma Thompson as the doomed Edna Pontellier, with either CF or JN as her younger lover. Being a JN person, though, I would love to see JN in a re-make of the Prisoner of Zenda. The mere thought of JN in another period drama( in a dual role no less) ,where he is once again so noble and vulnerable a la Mr Knightley, (complete with swashbuckling, sword-fighting duel at the end) is en ugh to send me in a Mrs Bennett-like swoon.

Heloise & Abelard. A Horrible thought! Garrotted, yes. Castrated????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tristan and Iseult Nice idea, as long as they go easy on the silly hats Can anyone see CF in a comedy?After all, he didn't do too badly The Advocate.

I would say Jane Eyre with CF ans Mr. Rotchester and S. Harker as Jane Eyre.

Is Helena Bonham Carter too old for Colin? They might make an interesting pair.

I believe "Fever Pitch" is a comedy--at least a Romantic Comedy--so we'll be able to see how he handles it. Very well, I would imagine!;-)

Amy: Is Helena Bonham Carter too old for Colin? They might make an interesting pair. Surely HBC is younger than Colin.

She still leaves at home with her parents.

She still lives at home with her parents.

When she was last on Dave, I thought she said something about being either 30 or older. She lives with her parents in part because she likes them!

That is exactly what she said,Ann.

Re Response 29--"Is Helena B-C too old... I read somewhere she was born in 1966. I read somewhere else (not sure where) that she is going to be in 7 Little Australians w/ CF.

Cassandra: Both! :) Shall we go door to door for donations? We need to show his agent that we've got the cash to make the flick! ;) Maybe Edith Wharton will lobby the Big Man Upstairs for us?

#21 Caroline The man is everywhere. And I thought I had it bad!! #23 amy2 CF and JE in Jane Eyre I love it, but how on earth would they make CF as ugly as Rochester is supposed to be? I believe it's an impossibility. #29 Amy Is HBC too old? I'm sure not; what a lovely couple they would make!

I completely agree-Kali. Why should we compromise-let's make both. Maybe you could produce and star opposite him in one film, and I'll take the other. Any acting experience???

] I read somewhere she was born in 1966. I read somewhere else (not sure where) that she is going to be in 7 Little Australians w/ CF. __ Thanks, Maud. I didn't think she looked old, but she must have been a baby in ARWAV, though she looked more like a baby in Lady Jane.

Kali-its comforting finding not only a fellow Janeite, but a fellow Wharton fanatic. What are your favorites? I read in the favorite books topic that you are reading Fast and Loose. I desperately want to get a copy of this-I hear its a lot like the Buccaneers and House of Mirth. To get back to JN-frankly, I think he would be perfectly cast in any future Wharton adaptation, better than DDL or Greg Wise.(although I did enjoy the recent adaptations of the Buccanners and Age of Innocence, they lacked that add d quality-JN) For me, he is Knightley, Seldon, Newland, Martin, Guy, Nick. Well, you get the point. Let's start pooling money!

Caroline : Can anyone see CF in a comedy?After all, he didn't do too badly The Advocate. He did pretty well indeed, and, not wanting to be an heretic, I much prefered i bit of comedy than his love scene. He is gifted, that man Don't you dare, Cheryl ;) Comedy would really become him.

Let's do it, Cassandra! I'm not an actress, but I bet I could make a competent go of it...have you acted? My favorite Wharton novels are the Buccaneers, Age of Innocence, and yes, HOM!

He did pretty well indeed, and, not wanting to be an heretic, I much prefered i bit of comedy than his love scene. He is gifted, that man Agree absolutely, Johanne! I thought he was really good in the court scenes,even the bit of slapstick where the door frame falls on him wasn't bad.And the bit in the baths, Cheryl, ........;-)

I think he should stay away from singing though. As in THE ENGLISH PATIENT.

Kali-My acting experience is limited(one or two classes at the most:KW-I'm not, but like you, I'm sure I could make a passable Suzy or Lily, especially opposite such a wonderfully talented and handsome co-star! The Wharton novels you listed are all my favorites, too. I just finished the Children which I enjoyed and I also like Summer and of course Glimpses of the Moon. Can't you just see JN on our rain-drenched set, outside Paris-Suzy-But, she's mine! AS for the movie, I wouldn't want to give up too much control(wouldn't want Tom Cruise playing SEldon), but how about contacting Lindsay Doram as a possible backer, partner. She did a wonderful job with S&S! Then, we could co-produce and write the screenplay, a la ET. I already see Oscars!

Hey, if Madonna can get into the Golden Globes, why can't we win an oscar? ;) But I already have a contract with Arnessa to play Isabella Thorpe in a new Northanger Abbey...that has to come first!

REg. Madonna-my sentiments exactly. On Oscar night, we can thank the people who made all of this possible: EW, JN, and of course the P&P2 BB! Isabella Thorpe-very interesting. It's been a while since I read NA-She's Catherine's know-it-all friend?? My favorite character was always Henry's sister-whose father never loved her so much until the day of her very advantageous marriage ceremony. That line, which I've just butchered, (where's my copy of NA whn I need it) is one of my all time favorites from JA. And, of course JN would make a superb Henry Tilney!

As for Helena Bonham Carter (who, incidentally, was fun to see in Woody Allen's Mighty Aphrodite): The Boston Globe suggested that her significant other these days is Kenneth Branaugh (kind of an Austen connection there, if you count ex-wives).

JE&CF as B&B in MUCH ADO ?

Yes, Cassandra...JN would make a delectable Henry Tilney...:) ...and Isabella was Catherine's smarmy golddigger freind...

Kali-I'm beginning to think that there is not a movie, film adaptation of my favorite novels, re-make, miniseries.....that he wouldn't be perfect starring in! Since seeing Emma last august, my feelings for JN have ripened into a deeper feeling, more beautiful and pure. Dare I name it? Can this be love?

Great-Now I'm ripping off lines from RHett Butler!

Kali-I'm beginning to think that there is not a movie, film adaptation of my favorite novels, re-make, miniseries.....that he wouldn't be perfect starring in! Since seeing Emma last august, my feelings for JN have ripened into a deeper feeling, more beautiful and pure. Dare I name it? Can this be love?

Cassandra, we are definitely on the same wavelength! And I must admit that Rhett has a line applicable in almost any conversation...

Agreed! My favorite (Rhett to Scarlett): "Ive always felt that a good beating with a buggy whip would benefit you immensely."

Agreed! My favorite (Rhett to Scarlett): "Ive always felt that a good beating with a buggy whip would benefit you immensely." This is one of the reasons I don't like GWTW. There are others.

Agreed! My favorite (Rhett to Scarlett): "Ive always felt that a good beating with a buggy whip would benefit you immensely." This is one of the reasons I don't like GWTW. There are others.

You can say that again Myretta. Why do you like this line Amy2.

You can say that again Myretta. I apparently did.

Oh, I adore GWTW, the book and the movie. And Rhett Butler-despite all his wit and bravado is essentially a tortured man(torn between his passionate love for Scarlett and his knowledge of her Ashley-obsession) and tortured heroes have always been my favorite. Plus-he is capable of great kindness-his treatment of Melanie, Bonnie, and the way he comforts Scarlett after her nightmares. AS Cheryl would say, OOH Baby! My only problem with the movie-not enough of my favorite scenes from the book were included. I would have loved to have seen VL pace the floor, dreading that Sister Sue would write a letter to Frank and ruin her plans. Still why quibble about perfection and CG as Rhett. That's probably the onlr role I wouldn't want JN or CF to play. Gable is and always will be Rhett!!!

What about Timothy Dalton as Rhett?

I'm with Myretta here (as a good sister should be!) I've never liked GWTW, I cringed thru so many parts of it the only time I've seen it that I've never ventured to view it again...tortured heroes are fine, but not ones who desire to beat the object of their "affections"! No "ooh baby's" from me here, Cass.

Elaine:/What about Timothy Dalton as Rhett?/ That was no Rhett, that was no Scarlett, and that wasno sequel--a made for TV movie that IMHO should never have been made!

Cheryl-I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Granted, Rhett Butler is no gentlemen but he's the first one to admit it-I'm neither noble or heroic. Profit and profit alone. I suppose this is one of the qualities fans adore-his lack of hypocrisy. Plus, he's the only one, besides Mammy, to see through Scarlet's dimples and ready charm. To use the vernacular, Scarlet gave as good as he did. They were made for each other. Another of his more colourful, astute observations that I love. We're scoundrels, rotten to the core. But able to look things square in the eye and call them by their name.

How about Anna Pekkin as Sara Crewe (talking about Jane Eyre)? A Little Princess is one of my favorite books, and she fits the part perfectly. After I saw the MOVIE Little Princess, I couldn't stop searching for somebody that will do the part better, the acterss that played Sara in the movie just wasn't the thing.

I love the Little Princess, too, Ayelet. Have you seen the Shirley Temple version? She is not the definitive Sara either, but that's the version I grew up with, and I keep one of the excessively soft places in my heart for it.

GWTW does reflect the social climate in which the author lived. Even those blessed with the insight to see some of their culture's faults will not see them all. But it is a great book and I reread it every few years.

I have not read it in years, but used to be very fond of GWTW and read it at least a half dozen times from ages, maybe 15-25. I don't know how I would see Rhett now.

Here is a real role for an Austen actor. Frank Churchill (aka Ewan McGregor) will be on an episode of ER, holding people hostage I believe, on February 13.

Annie baby! Thank you sooo much!! I love Ewan McGregor!! What a babe! One of my fave actors on my fave show! Also is in one of my fave movies, Trainspotting, which everyone should definitely check out!

Anyone remember The Forsyte Saga? I read somewhere recently that the BBC is thinking of a remake. They are thinking about big stars for the leads--Jeremy Irons was mentioned--but how about this: Soames Forsyte . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jeremy Northam Irene Forsyte . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Greta Schacchi (Mrs. Weston in Emma2) Fleur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Gwyneth Paltrow or Kate Winslet Young Jolyon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .David Bamber (seriously! I've seen him in other roles and he'd be fine) June . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Jennifer Ehle Philip Bossinney . . . . . . . . . . . . .Jeremy Northam (decisions, decisions) Helene (the governess who marries Young Jo) . . . . . . . . . . . Anna Chancellor Winifred Dartie . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Juliet Stevenson Holly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lucy Davis (Maria Lucas)

Anne3-Wasn't the Forsyte sage-a big MGM forties film with Errol Flynn and Greer Garson? And I agree with your casting choices(especially-JN-decision, decisiion indeed!) With such a marvelous talent, how could a film go wrong? Yet another suggestion: How about Noel Coward's Private Lives with Jeremy as Elliot and GP as Amanda? I would love to hear him say-Moonlight can be cruelly deceptive. Plus, I hear he can sing. Or what about a re-make of Brief Encounter with JN in the Trevor Howard role opposite Amanda Root: Two married people meet, fall in love, and separate, all to Rachmaninoff's piano concerto no. 2.

Cassandra, the Forsyte Saga I was referring to was a long (20+ episodes, I think) BBC serial done in the late sixties, starring Eric Porter, Nyree Dawn Porter and Kenneth More. It was wildly popular at the time and really started the trend towards mini-series. It's seldom shown these days because, I think, it was shot in black & white. But you're right, there was also a movie version (called That Forsyte Woman) done in 1949 with Flynn and Garson.

I like GWTW very much, Cass...and as for Rhett and some of his strong words: he could never bring himself to actually hurt Scarlett. He was essentially a kind man who survived as best he could by outsmarting every other dishonest jerk in North America. It was Scarlett who did all the hurting in that relationship.

Wasn't he a Riverboat Gambler?

Kali - GWTW - I thought the same the first few times I read the book - but Rhett is twice Scarlett's age and encourages all her weaknesses. His virtues he seems almost ashamed of and never tries to lead gently and lovingly towards them as he does the weaknesses. Scarlett was an incredibly strong and honorable person in the areas in which honor actually counts - nursing soldiers (even though she hated it), taking care of Melanie during the Atlanta seige, creating a life for her family on Tara after the w r, even saving Tara by marrying Mr. Kennedy. Rhett adored that strength and honor but deliberately corrupted it until he hated the result. Imagine the difference in Scarlett had someone set about to appreciate her strenghts instead of always focusing on her weaknesses.

He could stand the thought that Scarlett could and would survive without him.

Kali-I completely agree. I've always seen the Rhett and Scarlett relationship in a similar way. Behind all the masculine bravado and street smarts, Rhett was basically a good person-his treatment of Melanie, his devotion to Bonnie. He even joins the cause at the last minute when Atlanta falls and saves Ashley, his rival for Scarlett's affections. Whereas, I don't think I could say the same thing for Scarlett. Although I admire and love her strength, charm, and survivor instincts-I don't think I would call her good or to use Katy's phrase-honourable. She only volunteered at the Hospital because she was still concerned about her reputation(Her mother might hear)and taking care of Melanie was her way of holding on to Ashley. The relationship is high tragedy. Rhett is madly in love with her from the beginning, but he's afraid to show how much, masking his feelings with witty remarks. I like when he says to Scarlett-you take people's love and devotion and turn it against them.

Anne3- I'll back you on the Forsyte Saga, especially with David Bamber- he deserves better than to be remembered as Mr Collins for ever.

I have always been dismayed that Margaret Mitchell was so blatantly racist in GWTW. Her black characters fulfill the worst stereotypes of the south of the 1930's and 40's. Particularly Prissy---foolish, superstititous, ignorant---whose mother attributes her stupidity to her father, a field hand. Yes, I know that the novel was set in the Civil War, but Mitchell was also mirroring the south of her present and the south (sadly) that is still not-to-far under the veneer of polite society today. When I was a child in the 1960's, in Tennessee, we had an African exchange student (from our Presbyterian missionaries in Zaire) come to our town for an extended visit. I can still remember the gasp of astonishment that arose from our congregation when he was introduced and the shocked whisper of the old lady in front of me, "He's a nigger!" First and foremost, that was the thought of the entire congregation. This is the attitude that Mitchell helps perpetuate in GWTW, that the movie reinforces. That it is fair to judge people by skin-color, that servants deserve no better than their lot in life. Mitchell would have done better to take Austen's cue and ignore extraneous details and should have focused entirely on the romance.

I am going to steam a little here. I will agree that Margaret Mitchell's book, written in the 1930's, does not meet the politically correct standards of the 1990's - anymore than Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn does. I watch movies from the 40's and before - made in liberal, progressive California and blush to think of the reactions of blacks watching them today. Holiday Inn, famous as the birth place of White Christmas, springs easily to mind here. Casablanca does also. I am ashamed of every such instance. I certainly agree that MM's book would have been even better if she had risen above black stereotypes as she was able to rise above white stereotypes in this book. Men and women, rich and poor, aristocratic and up-from-proverty and still-poor, she was able to depict them all as real people not limited by stereotypes. For that matter, Casablanca and Holiday Inn would have been better films with a little less dependence on black stereotypes. Huckleberry Finn would have been a better book if Twain had carried his progressive ideas to their moral conclusion and cleaned up his language a bit. But perhaps he did not know that in the late 20th century, the 'n' word would be the one word most hated. The south does not have a monoply on racism in this country. We hear of new racial violence in New York, Boston, Detroit, Chicago, LA everyday. It gets worse as the economy gets worse. The more the national economy becomes depressed (as the south's was for a century after the war) the more we will see nazi-like hate groups spring up looking for scapegoats and the more violence we are going to see all across America.

If you hate stereotypes, please do not use them in discussing the south!

"anymore than Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn does" But does it? or does it use them to force people to re-examine their prejudices. I never had to read Huck in school (a glaring failure of an otherwise good education), when I finally read it last year, I absolutely and literally cheered when Huck decided he didn't have to treat Joe badly just because he is black. It is one of the most wonderful moments in all of literature. As for Hollywood, I wonder about the black face number from "Babes in Arms". Here we have Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney parading around in blackface in front of probably 100 black actors and musicians. Were Garland and Rooney aware of what they were doing. Was there any consciousness on that set to the import of that scene. Was there any communication between the leads and the black actors. It makes me wonder.

Although I do not feel equal to the argument, let me try to clarify. I know that racism is a national shame, but racism in the south comes with it's own special twists. Public schools still proudly call themselves "the Rebels" and wave the Rebel flag and play Dixie as a pep song. The whites of these communities do not care that it is offensive to blacks---they are "celebrating their heritage." I scarcely know of a white person in the south who does not firmly believe, without consideration for educati n, wealth, or intelligence, that he is better than a black man, any black man. In the south we still see color first. Am I a racist? I try not to be. I try to avoid those who blatantly are. But I am white, I am a southerner, and I've had advantages my entire life that are basic, but denied to blacks. People believe I am capable because I am white. I have automatic respect in my community because I am white. I have always been able to live where I want because I am white. I don't have to be racist in a society which hands me the plums of life because I'm white. The point of all this? My point, and I'm not at all certain that I've been coherent, is that I refuse to be a racist. I refuse to revel in the glory of the Old South, because it was not a glorious time. I refuse to consider reading the book or watching the movie of GWTW, because it perpetuates that which I am trying not to be. By the way, my maiden name is Mitchell, I have read GWTW several times and seen the movie previously. But the last reading/viewing left a sour taste in my mouth and I'll not do it again.

We have a saying : Autres temps, autres moeurs which can be translated in Other times, other ways ("moeurs" also conveys the sense of morals, manners and morality)

There was a PBS program about the life of Alan Turing and the woman lead in it, I believe, is being discussed elsewhere here. Does anyone know her name? The screen credits flew by too fast.

"I scarcely know of a white person in the south who does not firmly believe, without consideration for education, wealth, or intelligence, that he is better than a black man" I am sorry your experience in your own part of the country has been so limited. I am not a southerner, although I have lived here all my life. Most of the people I know are southerners. Most of the people I went to college with in the 1960's were southerners. On my campus, southerners were the backbone of the civil rights movement. Of course I have known southern racists (as well as northern racists), but I have also learned the truth of an old proverb: 'consider the source'. I have never met an open racist who did not eventually prove to have major character flaws in other areas as well. But 60 years ago, many of views that could only be considered racist today were considered 'common knowledge'. Did you see an episode of Picket Fences last season in which the controversy centered around the early Encylopedia Britanica article on blacks? GWTW reflected the time in which it was written just as that encylopedia article did. I will not give up Encylopedia Britanica because it erred so much years ago. I wish your namesake had the same opportunity to correct her errors. I bet she would.

Ann: As for Hollywood, I wonder about the black face number from "Babes in Arms". Here we have Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney parading around in blackface in front of probably 100 black actors and musicians. Were Garland and Rooney aware of what they were doing. I think probably not. When I was in 5th grade - in the '50s in California in a parochial school - a variety show was put on in which each class took part, and in which the 5th and 6th grade students sang Stephen Foster songs - in blackface. We had one black girl in our class. I have no idea how she felt about it, and have no recollection of anyone even wondering about it. At that time it was not an issue that was in the public consciousness.

] "I am not a southerner, although I have lived here all my life." Sorry, but you are, by basic definition, a southerner. ]the reference to my 'limited experience' A tad bit judgmental, aren't we? What do you know of me except what I've decided to share? And what do you have to accuse me of except that I've made a decision not to read a novel because of it's callous treatment of a group of people----I also have decided not to read Stephen King anymore because I believe it is harmful to my psyche----is that all right with you? ]"I have never met an open racist who did not eventually prove to have major character flaws in other areas as well." Fine and good. But the racism I was speaking of is not out in the open. Open racists are easy to find---their hate washes over everything they do. I am speaking of the racism that is hidden in each of us. Denial of its existance does not make it go away. ]Encyclopedia Brittanica Oh, please. Of course I read the encyclopedia when necessary, despite what was written 60, 70, 100 years ago. But I don't use a vintage edition, nor do I believe you do. As for GWTW, read it if it gives you pleasure. It is my 16 year old daughter's favorite book and film. I would deny no pleasure of hers, nor yours. But allow me, a 40 year old woman, the luxury of being able not to read a book if I find it offensive for any reason. And I will allow you the luxury to disagree with me, because it is y ur right. In fact, let's agree to disagree on this issue and go on from here, I desire no enemies. But it seems I have made one, all the same. Live and learn. BTW----Margaret Mitchell is not my namesake, nor am I hers. I was named for my mother's friend.

Ok, Margaret. My issue with you is not what books you choose to read or how you define 'namesake' or 'southerner'. My issue is that even as you tell us how much you dislike stereotypes, you stereotype all southerners as racist bigots. Southern stereotypes have been the mainstay of TV for years. This is the only ethnic group in America that it is still proper to make fun of. TV depictions of the south and southerners got a little better in the late 70's when Carter was president, but as soon as Reagan was elected, southerners on TV dwindled back down into the fools and crooks that TV-land preferred. Even Murder She Wrote, when it featured a southern landscape, pulled up characters out and costumes out of a Lillian Hillard play instead of anything remotely resembling anyone or anything I had ever known. As a youngster, I bought into the shame of living in the south and attending southern schools while all my cousins attended the superior New York and Chicago and Toronto schools. I was mortified by the dreadful resistence to the civil rights movement and thought things were happening here that could never happen in the morally superior North. But every year, I see more and more evidence that the moral and intellectual superiority of the North over the South is as foolish a fantasy as the superiority of one race over another. The eastern seaboard has always had segragation. They called it 'restricted neighborhoods' but it guaranteed that WASPs did not have to associate with non-WASPs. It has racial hatred and violence that seems to be ready to set a nation on fire. But if a racial problem occurs outside the south, it is described as an Amer can problem. If is occurs inside the south, it reflects only the south. Sometimes, I think we should seed buses of freedom riders to Boston and straighten them out. I am hoping for the day that it becomes as politically incorrect to describe my adopted home in unflattering stereotypes as it is to describe any other minority in unflattering stereotypes. In the meantime, it would be nice to know that southerners are beginning to see each others and themselves as people and not comic representations of someone else's stereotypes.

Believe me the problems of racism are not only a southern problem. I grew up in one of the most segregated cities in the US--Milwaukee, WI. There are black area of town and white areas of town. There are areas in parks where the blacks hang out and areas where the whites hang out. Though in one case these areas are across the street from eachother, there is little or no mingling. It is even segregated among the white population, Germans tend to be on the north side and Poles on the south. Until I came to inneapolis and saw blacks in the same areas as whites, and even blacks and whites together, I didn't realise how segregated Milwaukee was. It was quite a shocking revelation. I am happy to say, though, that the high school I went to had black homecoming kings two years in a row (our school elected homecoming kings and prom queens), so at our school at least blacks were well accepted and a part of the mainstream social culture. It is hard to say how deep the segregation in Milwaukee goes and whether it is more geographic or philosophic.

"Southern stereotypes have been the mainstay of TV for years. This is the only ethnic group in America that it is still proper to make fun of. " Don't forget Minnesotans in Fargo, you betcha.

Ann - I have to admit that Betty White broke new ground with her endless St. Olaf stories on Golden Girls.

I too am sorry Margaret Mitchell presented the KKK in a positive light in GWTW and portrayed blacks stereotypically, but I think we have to remember that she wrote the book in the 1930's -- a time when racial hatred was at its peak. Germany being the ultimate proof. However, I do think that Mammy has a grace & a wisdom which supercedes both Scarlett's and Rhett's. Hattie McDaniel's speech to Melanie when Rhett refuses to leave the body of Bonnie is to me just a brilliant moment in cinema. Please also r member that the film allowed McDaniel to become the first black actor to win a major Oscar in 1939. And for the time, this was no small thing.

Re #87: Terry you asked about "Breaking the Code" and the woman in it -- she was Amanda Root who plays Anne in "Persuasion" and is being discussed under that topic. I liked "Breaking the Code", and I always love to see Derek Jacobi.

Very true, Amy2...Mammy is one of the most insightful people in the entire story. We need to put the novel and the film into perspective, so that we might be able to appreciate its real merits. I always saw GWTW as a feminist novel, personally... Right, Cass...I cannot call Scarlett "honorable," either...whenever Rhett was about to reach out to her, she abruptly pushed him away. She was ready to run off with another woman's husband, stole her own sister's beau (any thought on her part that Suellen would forget all about Tara and the property taxes once she married is pure rationalization on Scarlett's part, I think...), sold green wood from her lumberyard, refused charity to her impoverished debtors (at Franks store), hired prison labor whom she aid an "overseer" to work to the point of illness, skipped out on Dr. Mead and her nursing duties when the going got tough, etc., etc., etc. ...If it weren't for her promise to Ashley, I don't wonder that she would have left Melanie to the Yankees at Aunt Pitty's! Scarlett is the epitome of selfishness. She is forever a child. Still, I can appreciate her - she has sense, and she gets along. But she has trouble getting along with others. She is just too manic to take the time to connect with them. And as far as I'm concerned, that two-faced Cathleen Calvert and that ninny India Wilkes can just go take their jealousy and...well, now I'm getting carried away. ;)

I agree with both Kali's and Cassandra's takes on Scarlett, but I've always been slightly more lenient with her. She's a master of rationalization, but she's also occasionally torn by "real" guilt--I believe that she can recognize good in other people (specifically her mother, whom she characterizes as saint-like) and simply cannot reconcile her selfishness and impulsiveness with what she believes to be goodness. So, she believes herself "bad," and uses it to excuse her behavior (and to dismiss the Mela ies of the world), even though she is capable of doing good. Her main failing, to my mind, is in the aftermath of the "as God is my witness" speech--her strength, resilience, and will to survive become subsumed by her vow to never again experience want ("no, nor any of her kin!"). She transfers all her energy to the accumulation of material possessions, in order to stave off any possibility of poverty. She does become manic, and only learns the importance of the human element in her life when it is too late--Melanie dies, and Rhett leaves. Of course, this is Sca lett we're talking about, so I'm not sure whether she will take the lesson to heart, or if she'll resort to her old ways.....

I think I always saw Scarlett as Rhett saw her: Selfish, scheming, ignorant, a vixen, but also imbued with the incredible capacity to withstand ANYTHING in life and to hold on fiercely to those she loved. Maybe we should go back to Scarlett's literary predecessor: Becky Sharp in Thackeray's VANITY FAIR, to get a greater understanding of her.

Amy--unfortunately, I am not familiar enough with Vanity Fair (skimmed it in a survey course; avoided those questions on the exam--bad student, bad!) that it would help--perhaps you could elaborate? I suppose I am always amazed that even with all of Scarlett's faults (and they are numerous, indeed) the reader really roots for her. We are placed almost in Rhett's position: we see all of her shortcomings, and yet we are drawn to her. A testament to the authoress, I guess.

Amy2-Interestingly enough, some literary critics suspected Ms. Mitchell of plagerism vis-a-vis Vanity Fair, noting the Becky/Amelia and Scarlett/Melanie similiarities. I've always thought this was really stupid. There are no male characters as complete and well-drawn as Rhett and Ashley in VF. And Tracey-I think you've brought up a really good, key point-Scarlet's relationship with her mother. Throughout the book and the movie, we see that Scarlett idolizes her Mother, Ellen, and wants to be like her someday: the perfect lady, helping the needy and the poor. A key scene is her confession to Rhett after Frank's death: I always wanted to be like her, so calm and kind. And, suddenly-I've turned up disapointing.(Supposedly, Vivien Leigh fought for this line. The director/producers wanted to cut it keeping Scarlett a scheming, one-sided witch)The someday when she will turn into her mother, however, is always off somwhere in the future-when she has plenty to eat and doesn't have to worry about any carpetbaggers and Yankees taking Tara away from her. So, she puts in out of her mind and will think about it tomorrow.(I couln't resist) I've always seen Rhett, then, as trying to make her see her true self and grow up and get that sad-eyed Ashley Wilkes out of her head. He has her pegged from the start when he leaps up from the couch-you miss are no lady. And of course, as Scarlett realizes at the end-he's always been there for her-getting them out of Atlanta, listening to her shrewd business deals, and her secret admiration for her maternal Grandmother whom to use Mammy's phrase-painted up her face.(And I agree about Mammy too-one of the best characters in the book. Loyal, wise, smart and the only person to see through Scarlett, besides Rhett). And Kal(and this will be it)-I also see GWTW as a primarily feminist novel. Scarlett O'Hara-what a woman! She's smart, strong, and ingenious-tearing down her mother's curtains and going to Atalanta to save Tara. And as she might say-anyone who doesn't think so is pea green with envy!!!!

Becky Sharp was a great character all right. But Scarlett is her own person. I always thought so anyway. And I can forgive her more easily for her faults for some reason. Becky's scheming seems only selfish and vain.

I am going to take a brief and not very scholarly stab at defending my view of Scarlett's honor: We always see Scarlett from inside her rebellious mind and her constant flow of resentfulness over every chore distracts us from the chores she is accomplishing. We only see her failure. She walks out on her nursing job - at the end of the war, after four years as an unpaid volunteer, when the war is lost, the medicine has run out, men are having limbs amputated without any anesthetics. she stayed four years. And then she could not take it any more. She asks Ashley to run away with her - after a year of struggling to keep Tara going, she is about to lose it to unfair taxation. She sees no hope, no way that she can continue to take care of Ashley and his family and her sisters and Will and ...... and when she pulls herself together and tells him 'she won't have them starve because she was a fool'. She steals her sister's beau - because she was determined to save Tara, and marriage to Mr. Kennedy would pay the taxes. She went to Atlanta in her mother's curtains and a rooster's tail feathers to sell the only thing she had that she thought she could get $300 for. Ashley knew what she was up to - melanie probably did also. They let her go. The others all kept their 'faith' that something would happen to save them. Only Mammie was willing to put herself on the line with Scarlett. If you judge Scarlett by her actions and not her thoughts, you see a lot of honor and integrity in her actions, and you see that she is open to good influence as well as bad. Had Rhett met her kindly - told her the truth - that he expected to be released soon - that he would find a way to help her if she could hold on a little longer - we might have had a different story. I guess that is why he didn't do that.

Katy-I respect your point of view, but I still don't agree with it. I don't condemn Scarlett. I greatly admire her strength and fire. AS Melanie kinda said-Scarlett did what she had to do. She's a survivor and we all identify with that.I just can't call her honourable. And as for Rhett, he always told her the truth. He couldn't give her the money to pay the taxes on Tara, or the Yankees would have been on him like a june buggy(there I go quoting RB again). Plus, He reacted the way he did in the jail beca se he realized what a number she was pulling on him with-the fluttering eyelashes and affected charm. Furthermore, as S realizes later, when he gets out of jail and can get to the money, he goes to see her with the purpose of helping her save Tara. But, by that time she had married Old Frank.....

Part of the story being told here is how a pretty young girl with lots of boyfriends turns into a lonely, bitter woman in only ten years. Rhett's role was to corrupt her and then break her heart. It was necessary to the plot that we see his strengths, but he hide them from Scarlett. Compare how he used his influence to how our dear Mr. Knightly used his on Emma. Rhett tells Scarlett part of the truth. He sees her weaknesses and faults and always holds up a mirror to show them to her. He also encourages her faults with bribes and flattery. He sees her strenghts also but the only time he mentions them is during their departure from Atlanta and then when he is leaving her. On those occasions when he could be influencing her with his better judgment, he deals out ridicule or scorn or anger instead. Example: At the ball when they pass a basket to collect jewelery to support the army, Scarlett puts her wedding ring in the basket. Melanie sees her and gives hers also. Now we know that Scarlett and Melanie do not have the same feelings about their husbands, but we have no reason to believe that Scarlett felt burdened or resentful of her wedding ring. Her jesture was worthy of respect, no matter what feelings she has about her marriage. But Rhett shames her with the note he sends to Melanie when he eturns both rings. He chooses to ignore anything in Scarlett's jesture that might be honorable and respectable and focuses on what might be less worthy. If I were drowning - I would rather have a complaining, resentful Scarlett jumping in to save me than a philosophical Ashley sitting on the bank feeling regretful about his helplessness in the face of my doom.

Part of the story being told here is how a pretty young girl with lots of boyfriends turns into a lonely, bitter woman in only ten years. Rhett's role was to corrupt her and then break her heart. It was necessary to the plot that we see his strengths, but he hide them from Scarlett. Compare how he used his influence to how our dear Mr. Knightly used his on Emma. Rhett tells Scarlett part of the truth. He sees her weaknesses and faults and always holds up a mirror to show them to her. He also encourages her faults with bribes and flattery. He sees her strenghts also but the only time he mentions them is during their departure from Atlanta and then when he is leaving her. On those occasions when he could be influencing her with his better judgment, he deals out ridicule or scorn or anger instead. Example: At the ball when they pass a basket to collect jewelery to support the army, Scarlett puts her wedding ring in the basket. Melanie sees her and gives hers also. Now we know that Scarlett and Melanie do not have the same feelings about their husbands, but we have no reason to believe that Scarlett felt burdened or resentful of her wedding ring. Her jesture was worthy of respect, no matter what feelings she has about her marriage. But Rhett shames her with the note he sends to Melanie when he eturns both rings. He chooses to ignore anything in Scarlett's jesture that might be honorable and respectable and focuses on what might be less worthy. If I were drowning - I would rather have a complaining, resentful Scarlett jumping in to save me than a philosophical Ashley sitting on the bank feeling regretful about his helplessness in the face of my doom.

Right on about Ashley. I could never imagine why any woman, let alone Scarlett, would carry a torch for him. She's ten times the man he is!

response 91 from Katy : that could never happen in the morally superior North. ...foolish a fantasy as the superiority of one race over another...I am hoping for the day that it becomes as politically incorrect to describe my adopted home in unflattering stereotypes as it is to describe any other minority in unflattering stereotypes How so true it is but have you ever heard of the October Crisis ? Chaos roames and lurkes everywhere to make victims out of a lot of innocents. As in Nina Cheree/Youssou Oundour' wonderful song I heard today (am paraphrasing) : but when a child is born into this world he as no concept of the color of his skin and what it means but there's a million voices to tell him what he should be thinking...

You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught To be afraid Of people wose eyes Are oddly made, And people whose skin Is a different shade. You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught Before it's too late, Before you are six Or seven or eight, To hate all the people Your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught! �1949 Oscar Hammerstein II

October Crisis? no I have not heard of it - tell me more. We all read JA - that is what brings us together and what does she describe to us but a way of life based on the exploitation of one group by another? We see it everywhere - practically in every nation, always justified in the minds of the exploiters.

Margaret and Katy and others - Thanks for broaching the topic of racism in GTWT. Being an African American, I understand why people enjoy the film but personally I have not been able to endure the entire production. And typically since no one wants to acknowledge racism exists, I usually avoid discussing the movie. The stereotypes are much too painful. I am proud that Hatty McDaniel was able to win an Oscar for the role but when you consider there were no other roles for Black actors at that time . . It's one of those instances where (at least for me) the fantasy of the movie is totally eclipsed by a reality that causes rage and pain. I have so enjoyed the postings on this BB (JA is such a nice diversion from what my family call " the everyday foolishness of racism") and it encourages my heart that there are people here concerned about this problem in our country and the world.

Thanks, Karen...I completely agree with you. Jane Austen is a great respite from all the bullsh** the world throws at us. --- Katy, i hear ya. And I really do like and identify with Scarlett. However, her motivations and methodsare usually far from honorable. I side with Rhett when I say that she is like a prisoner who is not sorry for what he has done, but is very very sorry that he is going to prison. Early on, Mitchell describes Scarlett's view of life in terms of formula and untility. Scarlett sees the manners and conventions she has learned from her mother as requisite for "becoming a lady" and for use in catching men, and not so much as symbols of greater decency or morality. Perhaps this way of thinking saves her from greater hypocrisy, but all the same, she does things because they do her some kind of good. She donates her wedding ring to THe Cause because she refuses to be shown up by her rival, Melanie. And as far as the Tara tax scheme, if Rhett had had access to his money, he would have given to her if she had been honest with him. And as far as marrying Frank in the name of saving Tara! HA! She did it becuase she wanted his money for herself. Knowing Frank, he would have turned over the necessary cash to her then and there to save Suellen's home, without Scarlett personally entering into the deal. Poor Rhett never really knew where he stood with Scarlett...he always had hope that she would come to appreciate him, but whenever he thought she might reach out, she pushed him away. And when she finally decided to make a fresh start of it, Rhett had lost the patience to survive another round of second-guessing.

If I were drowning - I would rather have a complaining, resentful Scarlett jumping in to save me than a philosophical Ashley sitting on the bank feeling regretful about his helplessness in the face of my doom. ___ Good point, Katy.

"She donates her wedding ring to THe Cause because she refuses to be shown up by her rival, Melanie." In the movie, the producers let Melanie be the first to think of donating the ring. In the book, Scarlett was the first to donate her wedding ring. Yes, she did the 'right thing' with feelings of defiance and rebellion - but she did it. There was honor as well as defiance in the jesture. As for marrying Frank - she went to town to get the taxes for Tara - and she did. Yes, her mind was already racing ahead to the saw mill, even as she made up her mind to snare Old Frank. But saving Tara was the whole reason for the trip into Atlanta. Rhett could have arranged a loan for Scarlett through his friend Bell Watling. He choses instead to punish her for not telling him straight out how desparate she was to save even the meager existence she was managing to eke out at Tara for herself and her family. Mitchell always makes us aware of Scarlett's ego and selfishness. Rhett's is downplayed. He probably was intending to bail Scarlett out even as he laughed at her in the jail. He just underestimated how desparate she was.

Joan - twenty five years ago I believed the words of the 1949 Oscar Hammerstein song with all my heart. Now I am beginning to believe the opposite - that it is instinctive to hate and fear people who are 'different' from one's own group. What people have to be carefully taught is to recognize those instincts as invalid and destructive reactions to modern reality. I think it is like the instinct to run when we feel threatened - which we cannot do in the work place no matter how strong the urge - or the instinct to kill when we feel jealousy - another thing we cannot do (and certainly do not want other people doing).

re 115 :==that it is instinctive to hate and fear people who are 'different' from one's own group. What people have to be carefully taught is to recognize those instincts== Someone fears when they are threatened. An evil action sends signals of danger and to a newborn it does not come with the connotation of colors, social status (momey), politics nor religious beliefs. And these are the main reasons of miscommunications at its very least and hatred at its very strong in our society. We choose everyday, our personal choices contributes to heal or destroy the world we live in. And these choices are the same for our body (drugs, alcool, food and anything ailing us). Its so easy to give in to fear, hatred and anger, it distracts us to look at ourselves, our emotions and inner voice. How about first loving ourselves and then our neighbour and unconditionnaly. Social pressure his a cooker, but to hate or to love I believe comes down to personal choice, a conscious choice whether we face it or not. That's enough preachyness for one day ;)

reg. #106 Katy-again I must state how much I admire and identify with Scarlett, one of my all-time favorite characters. BUt, I completely disagree with your spin on the wedding ring scene. Scarlett married Charles Hamilton because she wanted to hur hurt Ashley and even India(men they marry girls like that but they don't marry them). She wouldn't let Charles touch her on their wedding night, instead he spent his honeymoon night in the chair complimenting himself on his discretion and understanding of female modesty. Plus, when he dies, she only bemoans the fact that he didn't die a hero(and therefore bring honour to her)and that his pre-mature death meant that she would have to be confined to black and couldn't go to any parties.(best case in point the scene with Mammy when Scarlett is putting on the pretty feathered hat-Mourning!For what, I don't feel anything. Why should I have to pretend and pretend.) And as for the wedding ring scene-Rhett once again had it right-I know just how much that ring means to you. With respect to Rhett as the corrupter-Again, I disagree. The gifts were tempting her out of that fake mourning. And as for Scarlett, she only turned herself into a lonely woman. It's tragic. She turned away happiness again and again with Rhett for a schoolgirl's dream of Ashley-a man she could never hope to understand if he were free.

Here's a thought--one of the most frustrating characteristics of Scarlett is her inability to be honest with Rhett, even when she truly needs him (the miscarriage scene is an example). She is afraid of his ridicule/rejection. Similarly, Rhett is never honest with Scarlett for the same reasons; he knows her feelings for Ashley. Perhaps we could say that the characters' pride induced them to prejudicial attitudes toward one another? :)

] She is afraid of his ridicule/rejection. ___ Aren't we all?

No kidding, Amy. --- To me, Katy, the ring donation scene at the bazaar is definitely a gesture of defiance, but not of honor. No matter which version to which you subscribe, Scarlett's action is meant to express her refusal to accept the dullness of widowhood, and respresents an attempt to out-Melanie Melanie herself, the moral pillar of the community and power behind the homefront movement. As far as 'saving Tara,' and even Scarlett's love for Ashley and her parents, it seems that Scarlett's main interest is to maintain some sort of fixity and constancy in her life. She is selfish and mercenary, but as she is a child, she needs some sort of fixed source from which to draw her strength. I don't blame her...I'm just the same. Still, she is far from honorable, b/c her motivations aren't mature. At first it was her parents and Tara, then it became more and more Ashley (she was ready to ditch t all to run off with him), and then, at the end, it became clear to her that Rhett was the one who had given her the goading and support she needed to keep going. When it seems that Tara is all she has left, she then grasps again at that. The best part of the Ripley sequel, to me, is the first few chapters, in which Scarlett realizes that Tara is no longer "home." She has to learn to live life on her own...

] She is afraid of his ridicule/rejection. ___ ]Aren't we all? ____ Not any more!

Good for you Myretta.

Ok - I will not tease you any more with my "Scarlett&Rhett are Emma&Knightly turned upside down" theory. I re-read GWTW recently, this time as the mother of a 15-year-old girl, and everything about Rhett seemed to strike me differently than it had before. Every teen carries a lot of rebelliousness and selfishness. I also see the enormous amount of influence someone like Rhett (twenty years older, polished, rich, ready to mock the world) could have on a rebellious teen. --------------------------------- Johanne - you are right - my language was too strong. I should have said fear and distrust were instinctive - not fear and hatred. But I do believe that fear and distrust of strangers was probably a major "group survival" instinct thousands of years ago. Now that the world is so crowded and we are all living in each others faces (and have stock piles of nuclear and chemical weapons), that instinct no longer protects us - but actually increases our vulnerability. An ins inct to build bridges between people would help us all to survive longer.

Tracey-I really agree with your ridicule/rejection theory. Rhett is afraid to show Scarlett how much he loves her, fearing he'll turn into another of her victims. And-Scarlett until the very end is too blinded by her AShley obsession to admit how much she needs and depends on him. Plus, she is unsure of his feelings. There is a scene in the book when Rhett cradles her and makes her promise that she won't have an abortion. And she asks him-do I mean all that much to you? His reply is of course-I paid a lot of money for you! Everytime I see the movie or read the book, I almost want to change the miscarriage scene when Rhett wonders if she called for him, and she does, but he doesn't know it. But, alas-then it wouldn't be GWTW....

Katy: twenty five years ago I believed the words of the 1949 Oscar Hammerstein song with all my heart. Now I am beginning to believe the opposite - that it is instinctive to hate and fear people who are 'different' from one's own group. I still agree with it. I work with children age 3 through high school. The little ones have no differentiated hate or fear. (It is often difficult to teach them not to implicitly like and trust "strangers".) Infants and small children adopted into families of different ethnic heritage do not instinctively hate and fear their families. Conflicts of this nature are taught and learned as we grow older.

When I was about 12 or so, my mother was a set dresser for our local community theater, who was doing South Pacific. I used to go with her to the theater while she worked back stage. Play rehearsals are often done out of sequence, so the song really did not register until opening night. Seeing it in the whole of the play finally made the impact. When the man who played Lt. sang this song to Nellie, he did it with so much emotion. He was angry at world, at himself, at Nellie for having the same reaction to her lover's children. But there was also regret that the world worked this way, love for Bloody Mary's daughter, a hint of despair, and a touch of defiance against the fates, as he was about to go on mission that took his life. It was a stunning moment. (And it was an amatuer perfomance). I think everyone should see this play done live...so if you get the chance..Go See It!

I guess the only thing I can add to this discussion is: 1) I always thought Scarlett was pretty reprehensible as a character, though I do admire her courage and ability to survive. 2) I don't know if fear & loathing of other racial groups is instinctive, but I DO know that demagouges like Hitler and Farrakhan know how to play upon the human fear of the Other. When you make that Other subhuman (untermenschen, in German) then what you end up with is the camps.

Amy 2 - a very good summation. All I can say is "Amen to that."

First I want to apologize to the group for starting this subject. All I really wanted to say in the beginning was that not all southerners are bigots and not all bigots are southerners. I wish I had found such simple language a few days ago. Second, let me add that I did not rejoice when I learned that racism was not unique to the American south. I grew up planning to get as far away as fast as possible. The realization that I could not escape racism by moving away was one of the major disappointments in my young adulthood. Third, I will not argue the instinct vs teaching anymore except to say that the only reason I thought it was worth mentioning is that if it is instinct, maybe we need to deal with it differently. Maybe it should be part of diversity awareness training. In my idealistic youth (back when I was sure Oscar Hammerstein had it nailed), I also thought a generation of integration - children playing together, going to school together - would fix everything. It did not. So maybe we should be thinking about dealing with it the way psychologists tell us to deal with sibling rilvary, which all siblings feel at one time or another. Instead of telling a child that the feelings are wrong or that he cannot possible really feel like that, they advise us to help the child examine the feelings and learn to deal with them -- as in "everybody probably feels like that from time to time - why do you feel like that today?" And - oh, yes, the author's implied attitude towards blacks in GWTW is the worst I have ever seen in a novel that anyone took seriously. Even her publisher's wanted her to tone it down, and that was decades before anyone thought or cared about political correctness.

At the least, let me thank you Katy for opening the door to the first tabou topic in which we have discussed with great civility no matter our differences.

At the least, let me thank you Katy for opening the door to the first tabou topic in which we have discussed with great civility and opened mind no matter our differences.

Katy, I echo Johanne's point. I was pleasantly surprised by the discuss and everyone's civility. It really encouraged me because I can get very cynical, depressed and upset during these types of discussions.

hear, hear Karen

I live in L.A., and we are confronting this issue every day. But I must say, it's not at all as grim as the media makes it out. Despite the Newsworthy Events like the riots, the truth is, for the most part, we ARE all getting along. When I walk into my building's elevator here in Hollywood, I see rappers from Priority Records upstairs; Asians; whites; Latinos, African-American businesspeople, etc. and nobody even gives it a second thought. I don't mean to sound Pollyannaish, but we are an example of s many different cultures and languages thrown together, and at base, we're dealing with it. I'm afraid if multiculturalism fails here, then it will fail in the rest of the country. But truthfully, 90% of the time, it's working.

I have been following this discussion with interest, but have deliberately not commented so far as I felt that one more voice would only confuse things. I am impressed, as always, with your clarity, charity,and celerity of response.Maybe we could meet and talk about these things in one of Terry's other conferences.(I am not complainig about the wandering from topic, just that I think that it might be more fruitful.) any suggestions?

"one of Terry's other conferences". Hearing that warms my heart, feel free to wander about in them and stir things up. The "other conferences" are way too quiet.

For your reading pleasure: The nobler side of Scarlett O'Hara - the side the movie director did not want to confuse you with. Since most folks do not keep a copy of GWTW around, (like we all do JA), I put a few excerpts from the chapters between the news of the new taxes on tara and Scarlett's wedding to Mr. Kennedy on the spring. Now, I know these anotated excerpts are not the whole story on Scarlett - but they are part of it.

Kendall -- I must confess, I have about 3 ccs. of GWTW lying around! And I know that Vivien Leigh was really concerned that Selznick and Victor Fleming were portraying Scarlett as too much of the B word in the film.

Amy2-Supposedly, Vivien Leigh carried around her own, battered, dog-eared copy of GWTW at all times on the set, ready to due battle. She really fought to keep the "I'm glad Mother's not here" speech. And when George Cukor was fired, replaced by Fleming, she and Olivia De Havilland used to sneak over to Cukor's house and run their lines by him. I think they called him the woman's director. Just to keep this GWTW discussion going a bit longer, I'm just interested how you all feel about Melanie: too good-to-be true mealy-mouthed ninny who must have seen Scarlett's love for Ashley or a "Great lady" who was so full of honor, she could never see dishonour in any one she loved?? I admit I'm partial to the Rhett view(I'm sure you are not surprised). I love when Melly comes charging down the stairs, ready to run the Yankee soldier through if needed. Even Scarlett is impressed.

Another plug for Rhett: His love for not only his own daughter, but Wade Hampton Hamilton and Ella Lorena Kennedy...he becomes the father Wade never had, without attempting to overshadow the legend of Charles in the boy's mind...

Melanie and Scarlett: I read somewhere that Mitchell divided her favorite character from her short stories in two to get Melanie and Scarlett, and I sometimes think about dramatic presentations of split personalities with the strong, agressive 'member' desipising the milder, more moral 'member'. Melanie could not have survived as long as she did without Scarlett - and part of Scarlett's soul depended on Melanie's survival. I do not know much about the history of 'split-personality' theory and published studies. Could MM have been influenced by them or are the dramatists influenced by GWTW? I love the Melanie in the book - find the movie version tiresome.

Kali - I love Rhett - I want to shake both Scarletts - the one in the movie and the one in the book into a greater appreciation of the true worth of the people who adore her. Interesting that you mention the children. The movie makers wanted to write out all Scarlett's children - but decided to keep Bonny Blue because they were not sure they could make us love Rhett without his father role. The only point I to wanted to offer about Rhett was that he was a corrupting influence on Scarlett in comparison to Mr. Knightley who also loved a younger woman and used his influence to shore up her strengths rather than to expose her weaknesses. Yes, he adored the children and he appreciated Melanie and saved Ashley's life and loved Scarlett - although he went out of his way to hide that from her. For a war profiteer and a moral degenerate, he has am impressive record of virtues.

I have always considered Scarlett at fault for her failed relationship with Rhett. Rhett is certainly no Mr. Knightley...he is too jaded, and, eventually, too overcome by Scarlett's selfish willfulness to remain the vigilant father figure. True, he should have had more faith in her. He should have kept a more watchful eye on her activities. And he probably should have confronted her about her destructive, selfish tendencies more forcefully and more often. Still, it's important to note that Emma is muc more promising pupil than is Scarlett. Where Rhett might have been able to work wonders with someone like Emma, his experience with Scarlett produced only failure and broke his heart. Certainly, his inability to express his feelings is a failing, but it is one perpetuated by Scarlett's own inability to understand him, to reach out when he does extend himself, and to appreciate his commendable efforts. Rhett's goodness is lost on Scarlett anyway. She has a terrible habit of breaking nice guys to piece . Where Scarlett is is psychologically scarred early in life, Emma is redeemable. She is a spoilt child, to paraphrase Mr. Knightley (re: Anna Weston), who is redeemed not only through the benevolent efforts of a parent figure but through her own essentially good nature and sense. Emma is infinitely more circumspect, well-meaning, and thoughful of others than Scarlett. She means well, and has already reached maturity in so many respects. Scarlett, on the other hand, is the perpetually-delinquent child w o is so hard-headed and deficient of understanding that all outside attempts to break throught to her, it seems, are fruitless. Scarlett's epiphany cannot be falsely induced...her life must be ruined before she begins to understand the nature of her inadequacies. Even then, it seems that the scope of her realization reaches levels of understanding no higher than the immediate knowledge that she loves Rhett. I wonder, as does Rhett, if she is ever capable of selfless love and self-awareness.

Kali-I really enjoyed your comments on the Scarlett/Rhett relationship. And I agree with them. Again I too think-Rhett had it right-she is essentially a child whom he wanted to pet and spoil like Bonnie. BUt, the war had irrevocably scarred her, hardened her. She pushed him away again and again and he was afraid to show her how much he really loved her, knowing how she turned people's love against them, using it to her advantage. I also wonder if she is capable of self-knowledge. For me, Scarlett only values what she could lose(Tara) or has lost. She is the true Irish-the love of the fight, the struggle. She only really values Melanie at the end, comparing her to her mother. Likewise, even though she calls out for him after her miscarriage, she wants/needs Rhett the most when he too leaves. She's spurred on by the thought of going back to Tara, thinking of some way to get him back. Even AShley fits into this model. She wants him, ecause she can't have him. And when Melanie dies and, as Rhett would say, all of her dreams about Ashley suddenly appear to be coming true-she realizes she wants Rhett. Ashley was a schoolgirl's dream/crush.

It occurred to me that maybe the 'ships passing in the night' angle might apply to all of the Scarlett-Rhett relationship. He is well established in his amorality when he meets her and sees himself in her - rebellious, defiant, willing to defy hollow form to get what she wants. He wants to bring her all the way from the protection of "form for form's sake" to his way of thinking which he believes will be quite natural for her. But through Scarlett, he comes into contact with a better class of people than he is rebelling against - less hypocrisy and more real courage and honor than he had previously recognized in the world. So, even as he exerts his influence to corrupt Scarlett, he himself is absorbing the civilizing influence that she should be responding to in Melanie and the Meads and Mammy. Hence we see him moving away from his established immorality even as he moves her away from the last vestiges of her nominal morality. I think the scenes between the tax increases and Scarlett's second marriage are critical to the changes taking place in her. She is learning to believe that only money counts - and that the only way to be 'safe' is to have lots of money. She turns to Rhett as the one person whose survival instincts are as stong as her own, and he confirms her new obsession. It would have been a different story if HE had cared more about her and Melanie's welfare than his own hurt feelings - if HE had helped her look for alternatives to selling herself to 'save the farm' - if HE had already learned the lesson about 'not throwing the baby out with the bath water' and could have passed it on to her. Of course, we cannot change anything that is that critical to the development of the story.

I think that Rhett has always been aware of his good side, Katy...he's just never had reason to show it (at least to our knowledge). ;)

If he was aware that there were limits to how much he would fly in the face of decency, then he was irresponsible in not trying to help Scarlett see the limits as he encouraged her to stand up to the forms of 'decent society'. I prefer to think he had not reached his on 'moral bottom' yet, or he would have changed the tone of his tutoring. I usually skip the last third of the movie - and sometimes the last third of the book - it is too sad to see the results of Scarlett's commitment to money.

'Til the last year of the war, and later on the end of his marriage, his limits (on two different fronts) had not yet been tested. I think Rhett's pet peeve was hypocrisy, not morality. He didn't mind swindling swindlers, or thwarting the hubris of fools...but when it was obvious that good people would be directly suffering, Rhett always did what he could. When it was obvious that Scarlett's tendencies had made a permanent turn for the worse, he was obviously struggling with the pressure of it all - the drinking, the inability to face Scarlett straight, etc. By that time, he probably thought he was too late. And he was, really. I don't think Rhett meant to make her into a blackhearted rogue...he wanted her to be honest with herself and others.

Katy-I've never seen Rhett as Scarlett's tutor. Scarlett, from the beginning, is smart, willful, and very much her own woman. I especially love all of the passages in the book where Scarlett's(then Mrs KennedY) only confidant in her shrewd business dealings is Rhett. He listens to her, gives counsel if she wants it, and often compliments her. In effect, he's the only person who knows her and treats her as an equal. Old Frank just calls her "sugar" and hopes she will forget about the unlady like lumber bus ness when the baby comes. AS for Rhett being irresponsable in not setting limits for Scarlett and encouraging her to stand up to "decent society", I've always thought MM used Rhett to show some of the inherent hypocrisies in the Southern traditions/society(ie: confining women to their homes during pregnancies, confining them to black as widows). Rhett is very modern, open and while he may have tempted her with gifts and encouraged(even enjoyed) her behaviour-she accepted it. Her jubilant Oh yes I will when he pays for the priviled e of dancing with her is one of my favorite parts of the book/movie. Scarlett's her own woman. As Rhett said-they are a like-bad lots, but able to look things in the eye and call them for what they are.

Kal-Are you still here?

I'm here...I gotta edit some photos, but I'll be at Pemberly within the hour...

Great! I've got to write the second part of my Knightley story first. I agree about Rhett not being able to hurt anyone. His treatment of Melanie, even Ashley. He risks his own neck to save Ashley and Frank's lives for Melanie. And he tried again and again with Scarlett-she just kept pushing him away. AnThe good old ridicule/rejection theory-I agree with Katy-they were like ships in the night, never managing to connect.