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Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)

Topic 124 · 260 responses · archived october 2000

» This is an archived thread from 2000. Want to pick up where they left off? post in the live Austen Test conference →

~Amy Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (22:20) seed

Older messages about Emma 3 are in the AustenArchive conference. Here are the last few messages: Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 177 of 182: SusanC (Susan) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (20:45) * 9 lines Ladies (and Gentlemen), we have our own Emma3 thread now, and no one's posting to it! Where are all my fellow supporters? I'll start by responding to Kathleen's message above. I do love MS's eyes -- they are gorgeous and luminous; very expressive. And I grow more and more enchanted with his performance, as you do. I reread parts of the book over the last few days and I must say his portrayal was really close to "my" Mr. Knightley. A lot of the dialogue in this production was also verbatim from the book. I, too, really enjoyed Mr. Elton in this production, although I cannot say I saw the resemblance between him and CF that others did. He did seem to be more a part of Mrs. Elton's illbred behavior in this version; the others seem to cast him more as condoning, not abetting, her behavior. Last, this is not an attack on Emma2, so please don't anyone take it that way, but I look on it as more of a "Hollywood," Americanized production of a British novel. It was not a "bad" adaptation -- it had lots of good points and I will watch it again with pleasure, but I think the British productions are better able to create the feel of the books, as Emma3 did. Now -- that should be enough fodder for all sorts of comments, both pro and con! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 178 of 182: Inko (Inko) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:06) * 7 lines Susan, I'm so glad you posted that. I agree with you. I just got a copy of Emma 3 (new, on sale at Border's)and am looking forward to watching a "clean" version of it. I also thought it stayed truer to the book, but, on the other hand, I've only seen Emma2 once in the theatre, so all real comparisons will have to wait till the video of Emma2 is available. But when I saw it my reaction, on coming out of the theatre, was that it was a very pretty lot of vignettes without too much cohesion to them. I missed having nearly nothing of Mr. Woodhouse; certainly they omitted his funny and annoying talk of food that's good for you and draughts, and general illnesses, etc. I also didn't see the similarity between Mr. Elton and CF. Emma3's Mr. Elton wasn't as slimy as Emma2's, but equally obnoxious if not more so. More to come when I can watch one tape right after the other! (Between watching P&P over and over, that is!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 179 of 182: kathleen (elder) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:08) * 8 lines Susan -- thank you for restarting us. After rewatching a few more times, I have found even more things that I like! I think you may have verbalized the different reactions I was having to Emma3 vs Emma2 (I tried to explain myself to an English professor, and I could not -- he has not yet watched Emma3, but loved Emma2). In any adaptation, the scriptwriter adds/deletes. The Emma3 lines about "But we are alone at night" would of course not have been part of JA's novel. But I love the look Emma & Knightley give each other right after she says this to her father. Another scene that was spot on in agreement with the novel was when Mr Knightley takes leave before going to London. He finds out that Emma has been to visit Miss Bates, and Emma's expression makes it clear that it's because of his opinion. He takes her hand and almost starts to raise it to his lips. This has always been a powerful scene in the book for me, and I think they did it just right. The actors' expressions are wonderful. [Susan, if necessary, we can carry on a small fan club discussion by ourselves!] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 180 of 182: Cassandra (cassandra) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:24) * 8 lines Since you invited opposing arguments....... Overall, I really respect and enjoy the differing views presented here. I love to debate. However, I hate how much of the criticism directed at Emma2 tends to be of a largely superficial nature-"the Hollywood-Americanized" argument. Or as KAli pointed out, a lot of the criticism is vented at the actors-GP being an American actress and JN is often criticized largely because of his youth and good looks. Since we have already exhausted much of the JN/MS debate, I'll just focus for a moment on GP. Firstly, ev n the Brits admitted that her accent was good, almost flawless in fact. Julia Roberts-GP is not. More importantly, she gave a wonderful, charming, touching performance. As I've said, her Emma was much more in keeping with my overall impressions and "the faultless in spite of her faults" theme. As for EMMA2, itself: Yes-It was directed and the written by an American, Doug McGrath. And personally, he did a helluva job, capturing(IMO) the spirit of the book. He is a brilliant, witty screen-writer. Bullets over Broadway immediately comes to mind-"don't speak!". My point, then, is that he should be judged on the basis of his work, not because he's an American. Overall, I think it's a gross generalization to say that the Brits are better able to capture the feel/look of these novels. After all, it was a British actress who won the most coveted role in Hollywood, making the most convincing of southern belles. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 181 of 182: Cindy Bernhard (bernhard) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:44) * 1 lines Kathleen, Susan, please don't leave me out of your little (the emphasis seems to be on little) fan club. I still consider myself to be a staunch Emma3er. I won't be getting my video for another couple of weeks, based on the schedule when ordered. Gosh, it'll be nice not to have to ff through all those commercials! It will be nice to do a truly direct comparison once 2 is released, but I don't anticipate a huge change of opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 183 of 205 [austen]: Emma 3 Response 182 of 182: kathleen (elder) * Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (21:46) * 8 lines Cassandra -- I am sorry you took Susan and my comments as criticisms of Emma2. I certainly did not mean it in any negative way. I was trying to verbalize my reactions to the two adaptations. I very much liked both of them -- I saw Emma2 seven times in three weeks. Your opinion is that Emma2 better captured the spirit of the book, and my opinion is that Emma3 did. They neither of them presented the whole story, of course, and I simply reread the novel for that. Anyway, I hope that we can discuss Emma3 without getting into a debate about which is the better adaptation -- I for one cannot say which is better, only what I prefer about each. (The only JA adaptation which I cannot bring myself to rewatch is the Olivier/Garson P&P.) Friends? :-) 260 new of

~elder Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (22:29) #1

There's a great picture of Dominic Rowan (Mr Elton) in The Making of Emma -- the caption reads: Mr Elton's over-dressed hair doesn't come naturally. Cominic Rowan suffers the indignity of . . . heated rollers. He is having makeup applied and has these rollers in his hair -- the expression on his face looks a bit dismayed!

~cassandra Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (22:43) #2

Kathleen-Of course!!! WE all adore Emma and Mr KNightley and it's wonderful that we can have so many options and choices. May this classical revival and onslaught of new adaptations continue!!! I agree about P&P0 too. Making Lady Catherine sympathetic? What were they thinking??

~Susan Sat, Mar 1, 1997 (23:47) #3

I'm so pleased to see all these postings, and fully expect them to continue, ok? Don't make me come after you!! I hope to watch Emma3 again before the weekend is over, and will post any new insights...

~Ann Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (00:28) #4

"He is having makeup applied and has these rollers in his hair" I want to know if anyone has a picture like that of Firth! He probably had to have the same things done to him. I would love to see a pic of him with curlers in his hair and one of those technicolor hair nets on. I would ROTFLOL.

~Ann2 Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (07:05) #5

I'm all astonishment at such unvarnished cruelty Ann! Don't think I could keep a straight face either though.I would snort at the very least.

~elder Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (08:28) #6

I thought the anagram scene was very well done (BLUNDER & DIXON). So many undercurrents, and all of them played very well. Frank & Jane, Frank & Emma, Mr Knightley's suspicions, Harriet's response to Mr Knightley -- quite delightful to watch all the players (hard to know whom to watch).

~Carolineevans Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (08:44) #7

The more I watch Emma3, the more I like it. The characterisation of Mr Knightly and Emma are just as I always imagined them to be. And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch.

~elder Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (09:06) #8

And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch. Do you suppose there will be a soundtrack? Oh, happy thought indeed!

~JohanneD Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (14:53) #9

]The more I watch Emma3, the more I like it. ... And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch. I must now agree with this conclusion, to my complete surprise. Indeed, the more I see this the more I like, I can now watch KB without squinting. The Irish musical theme, second dance to the ball his imprinted in my mind, a little tune I kind of unknowingly sing from time to time.

~JohanneD Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (15:23) #10

Here's what I found on Webwatch : The last TV adaptation of Austen�s work, Pride & Prejudice, was an amazing success. Emma has been written and produced by the same team. Fans of Pride and Prejudice set up the P&P Bulletin Board - "a discussion and support group for hopeless addicts to the 1995 adaptation of Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice". They�ll probably do the same for Emma. http://www.meridian.tv.co.uk/webwatch/webw005.html

~JohanneD Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (15:32) #11

one from ukonline : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/Members/hugh.c/contents.htm

~Susan Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (16:51) #12

Thanks for all the wonderful pics. I despair of finding a really good one of Mark Strong as Mr. Knightley, but am by no means giving up. For now, how about this one: I just watched Emma3 again, and am happy to say I agree with those of you liking it better and better with each viewing. Indeed, I am hard pressed to find anything at all to be unhappy about. Even the parts that weren't in the book are growing on me. More observations: Mark Strong is most handsome to me (1) in the scene where he is holding his niece Emma, and he and Emma "make up" after their disagreement over Harriet's refusing Mr. Martin; and (2) in the scene where he and Emma are telling Mr. Woodhouse that Mr. Knightley will come to live at Hartfield. I think his handsomeness probably has something to do with the way he is looking at her -- *sigh*. I think his eyes look most large, luminous, and expressive in the scene where Emma is looking at Frank's picture and telling Mr. Knightley that Frank "may be unable to do what he truly wishes" and he responds, "There is one thing a man can always do if he chooses, and that is his duty. If he truly wished it, he could be here tomorrow." All through these words, you could drown in those eyes! I think Frank Churchill is absolutely perfect. Although Raymond Coulthard plays him as somewhat of a snake, whatever we know or don't know about FC's character, no really scrupled individual could have taken such glee in pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and in treating Jane Fairfax so poorly in the process, particularly at Box Hill. RC reminds me of a circling shark, with that wide mouthful of shining teeth. I also love the character who played John Knightley (who is he, BTW?). His grumbling speech about having to go out on Christmas Eve causes me to laugh out loud. And when the carriage stops to pick up Mr. Elton, didn't that gentlemen's bowing and scraping behavior bring to mind Mr. Collins? And last but not least, speaking of Mr. Elton, I have always wondered why Emma did not share with anyone, particularly Mr. Knightley, his declarations and behavior in the carriage. At the ball, when Mr. Knightley asks Emma, "Why are they your enemies?", it seems like a perfect chance to at least tell him she'll fill him in later. I understand that decorum would dictate less than full disclosure, but no mention at all? It doesn't make sense to me. (Forgive me if this is covered in the book, and ust tell me to shut up. I haven't read the whole thing for some time now, so I may have just forgotten.)

~elder Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (17:25) #13

Susan -- there are several marvelous pics of Mark Strong in The Making of Emma, but I do not possess a scanner. Another scene where his eyes are beautiful and large is the "Badly done, Emma, badly done indeed" bit after Box Hill. Telling Mr Woodhouse about the engagement -- yes, he does look lovestruck (and more than a little lustful) there, does he not. As to Emma telling anyone about Mr Elton's proposal -- I believe Harriet was the only one informed. Some of the locals suspected he was trying for Emma, however, as Miss Bates lets slip (when Mr Elton's real engagement is announced). The Knightley brothers seem to have suspected it (John, at least, tried to warn Emma not to be so friendly/encouraging).

~candace Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (18:27) #14

I am also one who loved this adaption (from the first viewing BTW). I do however have a couple of questions: 1.) "She is someone's natural daughter" Was this a nice way of saying that her mother and father were not married or maybe that she indeed had parents and was not an orphan? 2.) Has anyone purchased a copy yet? Is there missing scenes?

~Serena Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (18:53) #15

Susan, I think the reason Emma does not bring up Elton's proposal to Knightley is her embarassment that she had planned a match between Elton and Harriet and tried many times over to 'promote' it and Mr Knightley suspected it. If you recall, at the beginning when Emma says she will match Mr Elton in Knightley's presence. Later when Harriet rejects Mr Martin, Mr Knightley in his anger tells Emma that if Elton was the man intended on for Harriet, that Elton may talk sentimentally but act rationally..he knows the value of a good income.. Since Emma always thought she herself was in control of events around her and her circle, the confession would have shaken her grounds, (ahem..ie. I only think so....

~bernhard Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (18:57) #16

Stop me if you've heard this one before - the strawberry party "Perhaps not" the brown, brown, brown thing. I like the playful almost-looks he gives to Emma to recognize that he sees her making faces at Mrs. Elton. The color thing works on the BoxHill trip, too. I really like the loss of his voice on the "indeed". You can sure tell he's torn up! (He looks a little like Paul Glaser -"Starsky and Hutch"- to me as he delivers that last line. ? Go figure!) Due to all the recent talk about receding/baldness my last couple viewings have concentrated on whether I'd like his looks so much after knowing this. (I am so shallow!) Heck, keep the hat on & we're fine! I'm thinking it's fine, anyway!

~Inko Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (19:40) #17

Candace: Someone's natural daughter, I think, means she was born out of wedlock and may or may not know who her father was. "Natural" in this case doesn't mean she was orphaned (or it could if her mother died in childbirth) but that she had no known father. I bought a tape of Emma3 yesterday and watched it last night. No extra scenes. The whole is only about 100 minutes long in all. But, guess what I found at the beginning? A little of either "The making of P&P" or "Behind the Scenes of P&P". It was a long ad for the P&P tapes with shots of the filming, a few words from Susie Conklin and Jennifer Ehle saying "It's such a romantic story" - but nothing from CF except some shots of him being filmed. My only complaint with that tape is that the sound is cracked up - especially where the music is played. I'm going to try and return it for a better copy, but I'm not sure they'll take it back. I don't think it's my VCR because everything else I play is fine.

~elder Sun, Mar 2, 1997 (20:48) #18

The costume designer (Jenny Beavan) also did S&S2. She decided that the Highbury fashions would be more provincial, less French-inspired. (Her budget was about 1/4 what she had in S&S2.) She worked on the colors, at least for the women. For the men she tried to distinguish between the older and younger generations (Mr Woodhouse & Mr Perry both wear wigs), as well the contrast between Mr Knightley (practical, single color scheme) and Frank Churchill (more fashionable, especially the color contrast between the jacket and breeches). From a previous comment: The actor Guy Henry plays John Knightley. On British tv he has appreared in Stay Lucky, Spywatch, Rumpole of the Bailey, The Two of Us, and Family Ties.

~Serena Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (07:06) #19

Candace, if you mean significant scenes - I think one major one was the riddles Harriet was collecting for her book and Mr Elton drops a bomb of a riddle off at Emma's place..which added to the misunderstanding of Emma's - That was totally overlooked and I think would have added more force to Elton's proposal to Emma..and of course Emma's subsequent humilitation in facing Harriet. Emma was let off a little too easy at the end with Harriet's infatuation of Knightley being replaced by Mr Martin's proposal. But on the whole, it was faithful to the book, except for minor details: if Emma had been seen visiting the poor and if Knightley had informed Emma of Elton's marriage. The final celebration scene was not in the book at all - but that grows on you.

~janea Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (10:45) #20

I�m sorry, but I�m not that fond of Emma 3. When I saw it the first time, it was a huge disappointment. Too much from the book is left out. And I don�t think that Emma develope and grow as she does in the novel. Perhaps it�s just that the adaptation is too short. Imagine P&P2 if it was just 2,5 hours - it wouldn�t be the same. And I think that Emma 3 would have been much better if it had the same size as P&P2.

~Mari Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (13:02) #21

Candace; "She is someone's natural daughter" Was this a nice way of saying that her mother and father were not married or maybe that she indeed had parents and was not an orphan? She is undoubtedly illegitimate. As in S&S, when Col. Brandon placed Beth in the care of a family in the country, she was placed with someone to be raised. The father, or the family of the mother, would have been responsible for finding someone to raise her, and paying the expenses. It is very likely that she will never know the actual identities of her biological parents. This might seem cruel, but was considered a very generous situation, rather than being sent to one of the 'wonderful' charity insti utions of the time. The family of one or both of these parents would have to be rather well off to assume this kind of a financial burden.

~bplaroch Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (17:52) #22

In Emma3 when Emma accepts Mr. Knightley's proposal he says, "I held you in my arms when you were three weeks old". I can't remember if it was here or on the Austen-L that someone commented that that was a very un-loverlike thing to say, but I disagree. I think it was like an outburst of feeling and emotion with the underlying meaning, "and I thought I would never be able to hold you in my arms again--but I shall!" I think that's romantic in a way!

~elder Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (18:33) #23

Barbara (#22) -- I agree with you. I have watched this scene many times, and I think Mr Knightley is just so stunned that he can't think of much to say. Emma is his dearest Emma, the Emma he has loved so long. She has just told him she has always loved him as well, and that she'll marry him. He is practically speechless. He is not a "romantic" man in the sense of being able to sweet talk a woman. (I do not suppose he has had much "dating" experience at all, in fact.) His words throughout the proposal scene (both from the novel and additional) show him as he is, a plain spoken man with incredibly deep feelings. The look on Strong's face and the sound in his voice when he says, "You do consent, then?" are very moving. And the slow build up to the kiss is also nice ; very romantic. *sigh*

~Serena Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (18:51) #24

Jane, I use to think that too that perhaps Kate B. could have warmed up more as Emma if the production was longer.. but many viewings later ..In 100 mins a lot can be accomplished if the scenes permitted. I'm not defending Emma3 (definitely not defacting from the Emma2 camp) but though most of the major scenes were represented, I felt the dialogues which would have endeared Emma to us was missing. eg. in the scene where Emma tells Knightley that Frank is the epitomy of manhood.. a little more bantering between the pair would have done wonders for Kate & Mark Strong. The scene where Knightley says.. anyone may know how highly I regard 'Jane' was left off too abruptly and Emma's 'sorrow' for Harriet time -over was let off to lightly and hence her character wasn't given enough depth. Even Emma's subsequent discovery that she 'loved him' was too subdued.. But this production does grow on you.. especially since there's no other to visually compare with .. till mid April. & Emma 2.. Barbara,.that sentence of Knightley's was romantic wasn't it ? ..he looked like a little puppy with his innocent gaze and .. him bounding down the stairs to look for Emma.. coming as he was, one cannot help feel sorry for him - cos he really looked like he had no chance in suceeding, ever, with his Emma. I thought a second opinion was necessary, so got hubby to watch it for the first time last night and his comment - This is nothing to P&P1, an uptight man and a bitchy woman.. I'm sure they marry at the end.. Jane Austen.. .I do apologise.

~kendall Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (20:44) #25

Mr. Knightley's proposal he says, "I held you in my arms when you were three weeks old". I agree - it was very lover-like during the proposal. The line in the book, "I have been in love with you since you were thirteen at least" might not have sounded quite right in these days when we are all so aware of and concerned about child sexual abuse.

~elder Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (21:06) #26

I liked Emma's response, too, which showed her getting back into a playful mode with Mr Knightley. It seemed very real, what real people might say to each other, I mean. I really enjoy this scene. [Serena, yes, he does have a puppy dog look -- with those wonderful big eyes! But he is not a puppy, in Mrs Elton's words.]

~bernhard Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (21:27) #27

No Knighley is not, but isn't Mr. Elton a puppy, though!!! I love how she goes on about how she's a scourge on puppies. And what says Mr. E? "Yes, Augusta." I do really like John here as well. I can't remember him from Emma2, but I do recall my impression from the read was he was certainly a fussy, unpleasant sort. The way he comes off here, though, strikes me as he's griping because he's expected to do so, and that the others are actually rather amused and entertained by the way he goes on. Well, at the very least, I am.

~bernhard Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (21:38) #28

re: "in my arms when 3 wks. old" comment I have tried to understand the criticism of this. No, it's not a lover's typical passionate comment, but I think it reflects his love for Emma. He has seen her grow; he has come to love her as she has grown through all those years. He has a deeply developed regard for her - not like Darcy's passionate feelings for Lizzy, but very tender, very true, very deep love. I agree that I don't picture Mr. Knightley's having had oodles of experience - he's been at Hartfield, for _____ sakes! When would he have had time? Maybe this is why I picture Mark Strong in this role more than that gorgeous hunk of Jeremy. I can't imagine that HE wouldn't have been pursued avidly by we-know-whom (make a list, or insert your own name here) as well as plenty of his avid contemporariees. MS' attraction isn't as a wildly goodlooking specimen, but very nice in his own way.

~bernhard Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (21:47) #29

and you all know which scene I'm thinking on Susan, Johanne, Glory and fame to she who gets me a pic and, speaking of the strawberry party - I LOOOVE the "are you fond of sheep?" LOL!

~bernhard Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (22:45) #30

Another bit which I have become excessively fond of (of which I have become... I know) is the walk up BoxHill, after the blunder. Miss Bates is on Mr. Knightley's arm relating some story of an excursion she took in the past. Without her talking letting up, continuing the story, she's shown talking to Mr. Weston - Mr. Knightley's now under the tree. I believe there is even one more person shown listening to her before our attention is drawn away from her story. It's great!

~Susan Mon, Mar 3, 1997 (23:01) #31

I am really enjoying all this discussion, and agree with most of it, but Mr. Knightley as inexperienced? My mind recoils!!! He may live in Highbury, but he goes to London frequently... I think he's honest and not a flatterer, but innocent? Not my Knightley!

~cassandra Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (00:22) #32

OOH Cindy! That "gorgeous hunk of Jeremy..." Get thee to the Northam drool topic! And I shouldn't really divulge this, but future installments of Emma: Deju-vu will deal with Mr Knightley's romantic past-before Emma.

~Susan Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (00:29) #33

Cassandra, don't make us wait long!

~Kali Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (02:29) #34

BTW, John Knightley is played by Guy Henry...and a wonderful John he was too! I've always liked John...such a crab...I watched my brand new copy of Emma3 from A&E TWICE last night, and the guy had me busting both guts...To Mr. Elton: "Get yourself in, Man, the door shut, and the less said the better!" A better treatment of John than Emma2, but they still didn't go far enough with it...where was his insight on Mr. Elton's intentions? Also, did you guys notice that Raymond Coulthard, who played Frank, looked amazingly like the man who played his father, Jimmy Hazeldine...the same smile, the same wavy hair...it all just looked cheesier on Frank... PS - Cass and I and some others have contributed to a page devoted to the Emma adaptations...it's still under construction, but if you want to take a look and make suggestions (or contribute your own content), it's at http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/emma.html

~Amy Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (02:36) #35

Very nicely done, Kali. You have great taste, baby.

~Kali Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (03:07) #36

Thanks, Aim...you taught me everything I know. ;)

~elder Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (04:59) #37

Susan: . . but innocent? Not my Knightley! I did not mean that Mr Knightley is innocent, but I do believe that he is inexperienced romantically. I do not think he has been really in love except with Emma, and I suspect that he did not meet and "date" many women, either. One of the very attractive qualities about Mr Knightley is that he behaves to women the same way that he behaves to men. He seems to treat everyone with the respect and consideration that a gentleman should display. He lectures Emma, out of love, and he cuts Mr Elton after the latter snubs Harriet, but he tolerates Mrs Elton even when she is insufferable!

~Carolineevans Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (07:32) #38

One of my favourite scenes is the first one of Knightly and Emma together,where quite unconsciously, She uses body language to tease him when she talks about being troublesome, and he has to quickly look to his glass of wine, or whatever. She obviously has no idea of what she is doing, but he does feel the effect. I think it perfectly sums up their relationship at this point!

~kimmer Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (08:20) #39

I agree with Susan, Kathleen, and Cindy. I really love this version of Emma. I was not too thrilled with Mark Srong the first time I saw it. However, after buying the video and watching it again, I find Mark Strong to be a very attractive man. He is perfect as Knightly. I too enjoyed the look between Emma and Knightly about being alone at night. Add me to the fan club for this adaptation!

~Susan Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (09:38) #40

Ditto to all of the above. Kathleen, I do see what you mean and it's one of the things I love most about Knightley. I was also referring to other comments in my response.

~elder Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (14:24) #41

Caroline (resp #38): One of my favourite scenes is the first one of Knightly and Emma together . . . She uses body language to tease him when she talks about being troublesome, and he has to quickly look to his glass of wine, or whatever. She obviously has no idea of what she is doing, but he does feel the effect. I did not notice this; I shall have to go back to the beginning (if my tape will rewind that far) to check it out. I must admit that I have been concentrating on the ball, Box Hill, the proposal, and telling Mr Woodhouse about the engagement. [Note to Susan: See, you did not have to come after us; we have kept the discussion going! ;-)]

~ValGal17 Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (16:37) #42

I have to say that I am very disappointed with Emma3. I have read the book, and seen one other version of it, the one with Gwyneth Paltrow. I think that the one with G.P. was a lot better. As a rule the book is always better than the movie, and I found no exception in either of these cases. That is one of the reasons that I love P&P2 so much. Not only was it an incredibly great movie, but it also stayed very true to the novel. I do not believe that any movie with a length of only 2.5 hours would be ble to adequatly cover any of JA's novels, that was another great thing about P&P2 - they did not try to cram it all in. It irritates me when playwrites believe that they can make a better story of it than the original autor, and end up changing the plot in the process. The Gwyneth Paltrow version (I will call it thus since I don't remember who produced it or directed it) anyways I believe that that version portrayed the unfolding of the plot much better than Emma3. They showed the development of Emma's character, and, I believe, portrayed all of the characters to more of Jane Austen's liking than Emma3. Emma3's plot did not flow at all. Things happened without giving some reason for them. There was no build up of Mr. Elton's proposal, or Mr. Knightly's love. The o ly superiority that the latter holds is the character of Mr. Woodhouse. Emma3 clearly holds with all of JA's ideas about this humorous man, as the GP version never even attempted to do. The last scene of Emma3 was very cute, but also irritated me. It's not that I do not like the idea of Emma staying good friends with Harriet after they were both married, but Jane Austen clearly stated that they would not be able to have the same aquaintace as before. This might be wrong, but that was the way society functioned then. Jane Austen's literature should not be made into to works that represent a perfect world, but the world that she came from - whatever the flaws may have been. I feel some loyalty to Jane.

~Carolineevans Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (16:43) #43

Valerie, you are welcome to differ-and what you say about the plot-changing makes sense to me. I will only say that it might, just might, grow on you!

~kimmer Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (16:51) #44

One of my favorite scenes occurs when Mr. Knightly finds out the reason Frank has gone to London. "To get his hair cut?" I love the way he says that. I was a little surprised, however, that he would mutter things about the foolish man under his breath with the father right there. Also, after Mr. Elton proposes and Emma tells him she is not interested, he makes a sound like "hymph". What is that second sound he makes? It sounds like there is something stuck in his throat. One last question...How old is Mark Strong?

~elder Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (17:17) #45

Kim: One last question...How old is Mark Strong? According to The Making of Emma, it would seem that Mr Strong is in his mid 30's. The book says, "Knightley is meant to be 16 years older than Emma. Given that Kate looks a young 21, it was decided to go for a Knightley closer to 35 than to 40." Haven't found anything more definite than that, but I will continue looking.

~Serena Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (18:33) #46

Valerie. sounds like you should come visit in Emma2 chat, ie. the one with GP in it. Though, Caroline's hindsight hold much truth for me, Mark Strong's subtlety as Mr Knightley grows steadily on you with each viewing.

~LynnMarie Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (19:52) #47

There is so much here I agree with!... Valerie, it really will grow on you. I thought almost the same as you when I first saw it, but after watching it three times, I really like it. I love the way MS says that second 'indeed' at box hill. He is so disappointed and hurt - remember, he thinks there is an understanding btwn Emma and Frank, and he thinks Frank has changed her to a less-nice person. I love the way he holds Emmas' hand the next day, and looks at it, almost as if he thinks it will be for the last time. I like the anagran scene too - it was well done, all the undercurrents are apparent, and the way MS looks when Emma walks away from him - he is hurt, he thinks he's lost her. Susan, I agree with you about John Knightly - I think he's hilarious. I'm glad they did something with him in this version. I have tomorrow off---perhaps I'll have to watch it again while I sew!!!!! I glad there are others here on whom it grew, like me. And I'm glad to know there are no extra scenes - I won't buy it know, as I recorded it without commercials.

~elder Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (20:33) #48

Lynn Lamy: I love the way he holds Emmas' hand the next day, and looks at it, almost as if he thinks it will be for the last time. I agree, that look was heart-breaking. He wants her to know that he knows why she went to visit Miss Bates. Then he takes her hand, and he almost can't let go of it, he caresses it as if he will never be able to be this close to her again. A funny note: I noticed during the Box Hill scene that Mrs Elton was plagued with bees twice. I loved it. (It reminded me of the parrot snapping at Lucy Steele in S&S2.)

~Kali Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (21:36) #49

Caroline and Kathleen, did you notice the look she gives Mr. Knightley as and just after she says, "We always say what we like to one another"? It was almost come-hither - nice touch. Poor girl never realized what she was puttng the poor man through...!

~Serena Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (23:34) #50

Yes, Kali, that was the first thing I noticed even in my first 'I-don't want-to-like-it' viewing of Emma3. Her explosive body language in that playful, taunting way made him look so uncomfortable. There were great undercurrents, much more subtle than in Emma2, which is probably why this adapation grows on you and keeps us going back looking for these 'less obvious' signs of affection between them.

~Susan Tue, Mar 4, 1997 (23:41) #51

#41 Kathleen [Note to Susan: See, you did not have to come after us; we have kept the discussion going! ;-)] And I love you all for it! There's still so much more to discuss. #47 Lynn I love the way MS says that second 'indeed' at box hill. He is so disappointed and hurt - remember, he thinks there is an understanding btwn Emma and Frank, and he thinks Frank has changed her to a less-nice person. I really love the way you describe this scene -- my feelings exactly about what Knightley is feeling. Did anyone else think that the actor portraying Mr. Woodhouse was just a tad hammy in some of the scenes? Two in particular for me were (1) when Emma wants him to play backgammon and he jumps rather affectedly when Knightley shows up, and (2) when John announces the snow at Randalls and Mr. W cowers between his daughters, saying "Whatever shall we do?" I've always thought this character absolutely hilarious, but felt this actor made him appear too silly for words at times. Comments?

~Serena Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (00:28) #52

On the whole, I loved the way Mr Woodhouse was seen, thought the character excellently played and very much in essence with the book. The scene at Randalls, was quite similar to the novel, he looked to Emma for comfort and Isabella, being just like him, was unable to 'sooth' him. In the backgammon scene, he did sound a little annoyed at having a late visitor: but could that be to show up how comfortable Knightley was at hartfield that he could show up long past the proper calling hour. Perhaps so?? John Knightley was simply superb.. he had me in stitches.

~janea Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (04:07) #53

Valerie, I agree with you so much. I just couldn�t express it as well as you do. I think it was a mistake to make Emma3 just 2,5 hours. The poor girl has no chance to grow and to mature in that time. Imagine what it would have been like if it was 5 hours. But of course I�m not all negative. There are lot of things that I really like. Perhaps I just expected too much after P&P 2. One scene that I like is at the ball where Mr Knightley is saving poor Harriet after Mr Elton�s bad behaviour. There is one small detail that I like so much. When Mr Knightley stands up with Harriet, there is not much left of the dance, it�s almost finished. I�m not sure that I can explain this in English, but I think that it makes him even more goodhearted. It shows how important the gesture is to him. I like that very much.

~elder Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (06:14) #54

Jane: One scene that I like is at the ball where Mr Knightley is saving poor Harriet after Mr Elton�s bad behaviour. . . . When Mr Knightley stands up with Harriet, there is not much left of the dance, it�s almost finished. . . . I think that it makes him even more goodhearted. It shows how important the gesture is to him. I agree. And the fact that he lets Mr Elton know how rude Elton was without actually being rude to Elton himself -- perfect. [I just wish someone could have slapped the Eltons a couple of times. (Smack, smack!)]

~kimmer Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (08:22) #55

Just an observation. In the ball scene during the first dance, Emma has stopped to wait for another couple to take a turn. She looks over at Mr. Knightly and gives him a little smile. He turns away and she frowns. However, just a moment later Mr. Knightly is standing next to Jane Fairfax smiling at the dancers. Did I miss something? I enjoy Mr. Knightly's "very spritly" when Miss Bates asks him about Frank Churchill at the dance. Susan, please keep your Emma/Knightly stories coming. Wonderful!

~Kali Wed, Mar 5, 1997 (15:38) #56

Did you guys notice that as they pan away from the final shot at the crown, Frank is dancing with a young woman who appears to be Harriet. A nice touch which I hadn't noticed until yesterday...it shows that Frank, despite his dubious double-dealing and selfishness re: the engagement, really is a decent person. I like that.

~bernhard Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (01:01) #57

Cassandra, re:#32 - HURRY

~Serena Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (01:45) #58

I noticed that too Kim. He had looked away from Emma and then heard Miss Bates coming in with Jane Fairfax, the latter was looking around the dance floor ernestly for her fiance. Knightley broke into a very broad smile. Aftre the 'spritly' comment, Miss Bates observed that perhaps Frank and Emma was meant to stand up together. He smiled again, looking at the pair dancing and smiled again. It was altogether, too happy a smile for me. Or did I miss the distress??

~Mari Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (13:20) #59

Kathleen - I agree. And the fact that he lets Mr Elton know how rude Elton was without actually being rude to Elton himself -- perfect. [I just wish someone could have slapped the Eltons a couple of times. (Smack, smack!)] Kathleen, after visiting Cyber-kisses for Colin today (just went to see if they made any changes, honest!), your post has given me and idea for a new page for Amy and gang to create as a link. It would be called Cyber-Smacks, and would have pics of Caroline Bingley, Lady Catherine, Mr. & Mrs. Elton, etc. Appropriate sayings would reply after each cyber-smack. What a refreshing way to revive oneself after a day of useless meetings! I, for one, would visit at least daily, at the very least.

~elder Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (13:55) #60

Mari -- Cyber-Smacks. I think that is a marvelous idea. Poor Caroline would have the stuffing knocked out of her, I fear.

~Cheryl Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (14:38) #61

Amy and I got into this idea on the old BB...I suggested that Slapping Miss Bingley would make a great carnival attraction, One Pound per slap, think of all the money that could be raised for the Bennet girl's dowries! Amy suggested that she should say something after each slap like, "Insufferable!" "I am all astonishemnt!" "I am all bruised!" Still giggle thinking of it! ;-)

~elder Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (16:30) #62

I was rewatching the sarvest supper scene in Emma3 today, and I have begun to enjoy it more. The Making of Emma book says that this was the way Davies chose to "bring together all the loose plot lines and all the main characters." I had not previously realized that Mr Knightley seems to be announcing his engagement to Emma as he makes his toast. So, we get to hear and see the Eltons react as well as Isabella & John make their congratulations. We also get to see how weary Emma has become of Frank's foolish talk. And the looks Mr Knightley and Emma give each other, especially before they dance, are quite loving. With respect to the "Slapping Miss Bingley" carnival attraction, I must humbly ask you to include Mrs Elton (at least occasionally). She could call us all "hobble-de-hoy," and say, "Well, I declare!" [insert appropriately clipped, nasal-sounding accent here.] ;-)

~Susan Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (21:24) #63

It was altogether, too happy a smile for me. Or did I miss the distress?? I didn't think that was a happy smile, more of a I-have-to-act-like-this-doesn't-bug-the-hell-out-of-me smile, and I'm going to do it if it kills me! Cyber-Smacks...What a refreshing way to revive oneself after a day of useless meetings! Has anyone applied for a patent? We also get to see how weary Emma has become of Frank's foolish talk. I love this scene. Has she got his number or what?

~elder Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (21:51) #64

The evening John & Isabella & family arrive at Hartfield is nice for showing the relationships in that clan. Emma holding the baby, the Knightley men playing with the children, and Mr W & Isabella being upset at the rough-housing. And when Mr W complains about how they have to go to the Westons on Christmas Eve, John Knightley "says" more in the way he crosses his legs than a whole speech! I agree with all who like this actor -- he's a stitch.

~Serena Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (02:49) #65

Susan, thank you for pointing that out - I will be watching Emma3 yet again - just to see that " I-have-to-act-like-this-doesn't-bug-the-hell-out-of-me smile, and I'm going to do it if it kills me!" I doubt Jeremy used even half that many hypens in his Cosmo interview. Might as well make an entire 100 mins out of it.

~janea Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (04:40) #66

Now I�ve watched Emma3 some more times, and I do agree that it grows. At least some parts of it. When I saw it the first time, I didn�t like Mark Strong at all, I thought he was rather dull. But now I like him more and more. OK, he is no CF (noone is!) But Knightley is no Darcy either. One thing I noticed last night when I was watching Emma again is that Mrs Elton looks very much like Rowan Atkinson�s Mr Bean! In the scene at the ball when she is talking about puppies, look at her mouth. It�s exactly like Mr Bean. Talking about bean(s). In the book "The making of Emma", someone describes the problems they had with "Little Emma". Every time Mr Knightley and Emma were going to start their little chat, the baby started to cry. At last they gave up and MADE a baby out of beans and some cloth. So when Emma is handling over the baby to Knightley and he says that he held her like that when she was a baby, he�s actually holding a bag of beans. And if you know it, you can see it. (Hope I didn�t destroy the scene to anyone, I just thought that you who haven�t read the book wanted to know. Or else I maybe end up with Caroline at the Cyber-smacks...)

~elder Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (05:45) #67

Jane -- Did you notice that when Emma remembers that scene, we see Mr Knightley with a real baby (who had clearly been crying)? Too difficult to film during actual dialogue, but it works with the voice-over.

~Serena Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (07:10) #68

Can anyone explain why property was passed from Fathers to sons. And if that was the case, how did Lady Catherine end up with Rosings? Mrs Ferras end up with whatever property she lived at in London and Lady Russel have her own place??

~bernhard Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (07:30) #69

I watched again last night, trying to pay special attention to the ball, too. I get the impression that Mr. Knightley just manages to get better control of himself to be able appreciate Emma's dancing, figure, etc. rather than concentrating that she's out there with him

~Susan Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (08:44) #70

But Knightley is no Darcy either. No, he's infinitely superior in my lovestruck opinion!! :) :) So when Emma is handling over the baby to Knightley and he says that he held her like that when she was a baby, he's actually holding a bag of beans. Did you notice that when Emma remembers that scene, we see Mr Knightley with a real baby (who had clearly been crying)? Thanks for pointing this out. I was completely unaware and now must watch again (darn!) to see it!

~kimmer Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (08:44) #71

Has anyone else noticed how often Mark Strong pulls at the cuffs of his shirt and coat? I must be watching this too much if I am starting to notice things like that.

~kimmer Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (08:47) #72

Has anyone else noticed how often Mark Strong pulls at the cuffs of his shirt and coat? I must be watching this too much if I am starting to notice things like that.

~kate Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (09:35) #73

Why property was passed from fathers to sons Under the laws of primogeniture, in the English legal system, property and titles passed, as a matter of course, from the present holder to one person. That person would normally be the oldest son. If there were no sons, then it would pass to the oldest daughter. If there were no children, to the owner's next oldest brother, then a sister and so on. The same rules apply to the inheritance of the British crown. A father writing a will would normally follow these laws of primogeniture in relation to the estate (ie the land) so as to avoid splitting it into smaller and smaller lots which would become unprofitable). That's why oldest sons were so much better off than younger sons. But he could leave amounts of money to other children, relatives, servants etc. That is probably how Georgiana came to have a fortune of her own. There were special rules relating to the money which women had inherited in their own right which they brought into a marriage. However, because divorce was virtually impossible to obtain, unless you were very rich, the money was to all intents and purposes, the husband's. Hence the desire of Col Fita (and Wickham) to marry a rich wife. It's my understanding that Lady Catherine holds Rosings because it was the property of her husband Sir Lewis. Since the property was not entailed, Anne will actually inherit full title. What Lady Catherine has is probably what is called a _life interest_. This was often used by a husband and father in his will. He wouldn't want to leave the property entirely to his wife, because if she remarried it would automatically become her husband's. But he would leave a will which would allow her to live in an off the estate for the whole of her life, and on her death the whole title to the property would pass to the inheriting child, in this case Anne. It was only in about 1850 that a law was passed in England which changed the law so that married women could own property in their own right. Until then they had been regarded (like children and the insane) as unable to exercise full legal rights. So a woman, for example, would not have been able to bring a legal case in her own name, but in the name of her husband. Does that help?

~Amy Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (09:38) #74

Thanks, Kate. I think some of us are a little tired of explaining this, and you did a better job than I know I could have done. HC has something on this too. It's pointed to in the FAQ here.

~Amy Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (09:41) #75

But Serena, I did not mean to put you down for asking. Certain questions are natrual: what will Lizzy call Darcy? Who told Lady C? I wonder what the really most frequently asked frequently asked questions are.

~bernhard Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (11:28) #76

yup, it's a bag of beans with a baby's bonnet

~Inko Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (15:12) #77

Interesting article in this morning's New York Times about new video releases, especially the comparison of the two "Emma"s. March 7, 1997 Tracking Jane Austen By PETER M. NICHOLS [T] racking Jane Austen: For a year, it has been a scramble to keep track of all the Jane Austen on film and tape. Basically the problem has been that several adaptations of three of the author's six novels showed up more or less at once, beginning in late 1995. "Persuasion," a film starring Susan Fleetwood, Ciaran Hinds and Amanda Root, came first. Then there was "Sense and Sensibility," the film with Emma Thompson, and a month later "Pride and Prejudice," the acclaimed BBC production, which was shown on A&E. All went on to create a bit of an Austen glut on home video in 1996, and now there are two more highly regarded Austens to consider: "Emma" and "Emma." Friday, A&E released the tape of the British television "Emma," shown here last month, with Kate Beckinsale in the title role. On April 15, Miramax will issue Doug McGrath's film, starring Gwyneth Paltrow and Jeremy Northam. Videophiles, left to choose between the two, might want to try both. Critics generally describe McGrath's "Emma" as the prettier and more lighthearted of the two treatments of Austen's story about a charming if meddlesome young woman who figures she's as qualified as anybody to arrange the love lives of her friends and acquaintances among the early-19th-century English gentry. The British version takes the same edgy approach to the material that Austen did, with Ms. Beckinsale making a plainer and tarter Emma than Ms. Paltrow's graceful character. However one prefers the story, the people who made each production choose words carefully when making comparisons. McGrath tuned in to the British "Emma" but didn't stick it through. "I couldn't watch it because it was just too disconcerting," he said. "It's disorienting to see something you've done yourself done by somebody else." He is now finishing a screenplay and developing a film biography of Jacques D'Amboise. "I have very little curiosity remaining about dramatic ways to do 'Emma,' " he said. The British "Emma" was produced by Sue Birtwistle, written by Andrew Davies and directed by Diarmuid Lawrence. "I can see why Doug McGrath's film was so popular," Ms. Birtwistle said. "I went to see it with Mark Strong, who's our Mr. Knightley, as a treat one night after filming. It's a wonderfully done light romantic comedy." For her, she explained, the story was something else. It has a darker strand," she said. Noting that in the book the question of who landed with whom had psychological connotations, she added, "It's one of the earliest detective stories and a brilliant one." Ms. Birtwistle and Davies also teamed on "Pride and Prejudice," which took them eight years to sell to television. "No one thought anybody would be interested in Jane Austen," she said. She and Davies are making a series based on Elizabeth Gaskell's "Wives and Daughters" for the BBC. But theirs isn't the only "Pride and Prejudice" out there. The 1940 film with Greer Garson is still available, as is the 1985 BBC production with Elizabeth Garvie. In fact, there's even another "Emma," a 1972 production, again from the BBC.

~elder Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (15:36) #78

Susan: Thanks for pointing this out. I was completely unaware and now must watch again (darn!) to see it! Oh, Susan, we are so sorry to have given you sooo much trouble. Can you ever forgive us? ;p Inko -- Thank you for the article. You have been busy reading and scanning today, haven't you? :-)

~Inko Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (15:47) #79

Actually, Kathleen, my husband pointed out the dancing article which, BTW, has a picture of Emma2's Emma and Knightly dancing. I remembered that not everyone can get the NYTimes on line, so scanned it and found the second article. I liked what Sue Birtwistle said about Emma - I think she and I see the novel in the same light!

~cassandra Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (16:00) #80

Thank-you Inko. Very interesting. I love Doug Mcgrath-and he's making a movie about Jacques D'Amboise. Wonderful! McGrath is like the Charlie Mcarthur/Ben Hecht of the nineties. HMM, I wonder what Strong thought seeing Jeremy as Mr Knightley. He must have a lot of confidence to watch Emma2 while they were still shooting. Maybe I'm warming up to him. Most actors would rather die than see another's actor's spin on a character, especially someone as attractive, charming and talented as JN.

~elder Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (16:03) #81

Inko: Actually, Kathleen, my husband pointed out the dancing article which, BTW, has a picture of Emma2's Emma and Knightly dancing. A most charming man, this husband of yours. Please express our gratitude for his kind attentions. :-)

~JohanneD Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (16:06) #82

Thanks Inko, as one who cannot get NYT I must rely on other kind souls. I have a feeling this person checked this site before writing his paper : http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2484/

~Susan Fri, Mar 7, 1997 (20:17) #83

Kathleen, already forgiven! :) Inko (and husband), thanks for sharing your finds!

~Serena Sat, Mar 8, 1997 (02:14) #84

Thanks Kate. I was watching S&S when the beginning struck me, why Mr Dashwood was so handicapped in giving his wife and 3 girls any financial help... Didn't think of FAQ.

~Kali Sat, Mar 8, 1997 (04:29) #85

I am in complete agreement with Susan in defending Mr. Knightley against unfavorable comparisons to Mr. Darcy. Mr. Knightley has not even the faintest pretension to improper pride....he is a man without fault...one in a hundred does not have gentleman written so plainly as Mr. Knightley...;)

~Susan Sat, Mar 8, 1997 (13:16) #86

Kali, YOU GO, GIRL!! We cannot allow our lovely Knightley to be besmirched!

~Ann2 Sat, Mar 8, 1997 (13:54) #87

Great information Inko. Can that Gaskell thing be a treat for us? I have not read it. A man without fault, Kali!? That is not possible for anyone. And I hope for Emma�s sake that he has some human resemblance...And from what I hear he has been found out with grass in his hair and I know not what ;-)

~cassandra Sat, Mar 8, 1997 (16:18) #88

Susan and Kali-May I voice my support. As much as I dearly love Mr Darcy(especially the meeting at Pemberley), there has never been a time when I did not consider Mr Knightley as infinitely the superior: rescuing Harriet at the ball, sending his carriage for Jane and the Bates, riding through the rain to see how his dearest Emma was bearing the FC news. And Ann2-you weren't, by chance, referring to my humble embellishments over at drool? Mr Knightley is sexy!

~Serena Sat, Mar 8, 1997 (17:31) #89

Attentive as he was, Mr Knightley appeared even more so, to the Bates after Jane Fairfax returned. He sent all his Donwell apples when he heard that Jane liked them, he sent the carriage (already mentioned by Cass). He obviously admired her musical talent, and thought she was the accomplished woman Emma wanted to be herself considered. His only 'regret' was that she was reserved, more so on this visit. Could it be possible that Jane may, in the couse of her visit and while secretly enganged to Frank, wo ld have compared the 2 men and found that Knightley was indeed the superior of the 2 He was always above-board, no underhand secrets, Piano surpise, which was very inconsiderate to some extent on Frnaks part. Or perhaps could Knightley have considered her as a potential companion too in the couse of the novel. Even after her engagement was known, he still felt Jane had deserved a better fate. What does everyone else think?

~Serena Sat, Mar 8, 1997 (17:34) #90

Oops the typo.. too early on a Sunday morning..

~Susan Sat, Mar 8, 1997 (20:53) #91

Serena, I don't think Knightley seriously considered Jane as a match for him. I think his admiration was simply that. I also fear that Jane was so smitten by Frank that she didn't even see any other males -- foolish girl!

~Serena Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (03:54) #92

It was a bag of beans, the way it flopped onto Mr Knightley. Very clever, I never noticed it. Susan, it's just that he never found much fault with Jane. He thought her to be a very charming young woman, with strong sensibilities, excellent temper and power of forebearance, patience , self-control. And he conversed with her always with admiration and pleasure. Except her reserve.. which could have improved on closer acquaintance. He blushed and was hard at work when this 'suspicion' was brought up with Mrs Weston and Emma. Coles too had suspected it. And Knightley was very thoughtful thoughout on e this topic began. He said he had no thought beyond (for Jane), but that's exactly what happened with Emma too, he had no thought beyond the current. Then it gradually hit him. I just thought it might be possible that all along he might have kept his options'open' not that's he's a calculating person. But at one point in the novle, there was a possibility that he could have felt for her as he did for Emma. Perhaps even the idea that Jane's 'imperfection' led him to think more highly of Emma. On Jane's part, it would have to be speculation, but being as sensible as Mr Knightley think her to be, she must have been flattered by his open concern and gallentry.

~Ann2 Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (12:12) #93

Cassandra, of course he is sexy! You can be proud as the inventor of this garnishmentI never found it wrong for a man to have an occacional embellishment from a visit in Nature's bossom, such as mud on his boots or grass in his curls or glittering water drops in his whiskers and eye-lashes...I just point out that some might consider this a faulty behaviour. And that a man without faults would probably be very boring. I think Mr Knightley was considering the harsh conditions under which Jane Fairfax lived. Just what he told Emma in Box Hill reproach, concerning Miss Bates. And he did what he could to ease the burden. A truly noble man.

~candace Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (12:32) #94

Thank you ladies, for confirming my side of the argument with my husband...No matter how much I tried to explain to him that it is "Knightly", my husband insists that JA ment for him to be "'Nightly". ;-)

~cassandra Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (12:36) #95

"A truly noble man." OOH ANN! I agree 100%. Like Emma, I think Mr Knightley is the last man in the world who would trifle with a woman, play one opposite the other, and "intentionally give any woman the idea of his feeling for her more than he really does." He admired Jane Fairfax, a very charming young woman, and he treated her in his characteristic kind, concerned and generous way. But, I don't think he ever once contemplated marrying her. I believe him: "she has not the open temper which a man would wish for in a wife". Notably, the only person he treated coldly was Frank. The man is human-passionately in love with Emma and fearful that she will be hurt. Mr Knightley boring? NEVER!!!

~elder Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (12:58) #96

Mr Knightley is also very considerate of Mr Woodhouse. Although most of the Highbury folks treat Mr W kindly, Mr Knightley goes beyond the norm. In Emma3 we see that at the end of the Christmas Eve party at the Westons. Mr Knightley is helping Mr W out of the house to his carriage -- after John Knightley has frightened the poor old man. In the novel, Mr Knightley & Emma quickly consult on what needs to be done, and it gets done.

~bernhard Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (16:25) #97

insists that JA ment for him to be "'Nightly". ;-) I thought that was just our wishful thinking!

~kate Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (18:05) #98

OK here is one small thing that irritated me about D's Story. Why does Elizabeth call Darcy SIR after they finally get together??? It just sounds so formal and wrong - much worse than "Mr Darcy" would sound. I know it may have been customary, but no where in P&P can I find that she addresses him as "sir" after they get engaged. There's heaps of dialogue between them and she doesn't call him anything. The use of Sir (note capital S) particularly sticks out where there has been a heap of Austen dialogu (eg pp216-218) and then some Aylmer dialogue where she immediatley "sirs" him. Did anyone else find this irritating?

~bernhard Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (19:51) #99

watching Emma3 again. re: Knighley's detecting Elton's intentions to Emma in admiring the portrait of Harriet, Mrs. Weston obviously picks it up -

~elder Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (20:11) #100

Cindy: Elton's intentions to Emma in admiring the portrait of Harriet, Mrs. Weston obviously picks it up I agree. I think Mr Knightley picks up on it, too, or maybe he just considers Mr Elton to be going overboard in his praise for the painting. I enjoyed the inclusion of most of the dialogue from the book for this scene -- seeing each of them in character.

~bernhard Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (20:36) #101

still watching & just want to say again - I LOVE Harriet!

~bernhard Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (20:38) #102

can't wait to get my tapes! Stupid commercials!

~elder Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (21:51) #103

Harriet is well cast and well acted. I wish there had been more of her story, but then I want more of the entire story. That's always my biggest complaint -- it's over too soon! Agree completely about the problem w/ the commercials. (I, too, am waiting for a "good" tape.) I have learned exactly which commercial comes before each of the scenes I replay the most!

~bernhard Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (22:25) #104

yes, Kathleen, and my touch on the remote is becoming quite good at lifting just as we get back to the story! Anybody know what the music is which they dance to at the Harvest dinner? I know it's the whole package, but the music is very romantic! Can't remember where the Cyber-Smacks discussion is, but I think that Mr. Knightley delivers a very good one to Elton. By the look on Elton's face as Knightley passes him, it musta' HURT! One more thing, Mrs. Weston is specifically soliticing for a partner for Harriet when she tries to get Elton to dance. So, this is why it's not improper for her to dance later even tho' she turned him down herself? She is definitely dancing the same one (with I don't know whom) that Emma and Mr. Knightley do, further down the set

~Kali Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (22:33) #105

Louie's a sharp one, he is, Candace...he's got you and the rest of us pegged! ;) --- People, be nice to Frank. If Jane Fairfax is to be unhappy in marriage, it's becuase she's too good for anyone! I wonder even if Mr. knightley could make someone so perfectly talented as Jane happy. Perhpas, if Frank and Emma actually had gotten together, Jane and Mr. Knightley might have ended up married. I can't vouch for the perfection of the match, but I can see Mr. knightley marrying Jane to save her from dependence...and because he is very fond of her.

~bernhard Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (22:41) #106

he is SO good!

~Susan Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (23:33) #107

Yes, Cindy, let me also borrow a phrase that Elinor used to describe Colonel Brandon: "...the kindest and best of men." Really enjoyed all the comments above. It never ceases to amaze me how you all keep coming up with new observations. I meant to watch E3 again this weekend, but Jane Eyre kept me busy. Sometime this week maybe....

~Serena Sun, Mar 9, 1997 (23:59) #108

Yes Kali, I very much agree with your idea of Frank & Emma / Knightley & Jane... big IF's .. but it does feels like it could have happened somehow!! I think Jane would be less 'reserved' if she wasn't afraid of accidentially leaking on her own secret. Then Mr Knightley would be out of an excuse. She would be "perfect'.

~Susan Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (00:27) #109

I think Jane would be less 'reserved' if she wasn't afraid of accidentially leaking on her own secret. Then Mr Knightley would be out of an excuse. She would be "perfect'. Very good point, Serena! She probably was afraid to open her mouth! However, could she ever have been as perfect in Mr. Knightley's eyes as his own dear Emma, faultless in spite of her faults?

~bernhard Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (00:27) #110

ok, here's a question, I hope I'm remembering this correctly - in the book, I believe Frank goes on about how he "saw Miss Emma Wookhouse first in February", but Emma3 is "first in March" If I'm correct about this, why the switch? 1) overemphasize how long after Christmas Eve it realy takes for hime to get aroung to visiting, or 2) March is easier to say than February thoughts?

~Kali Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (02:17) #111

In the book, it's February...maybe Andrew Davies just got mixed up? (Also, Cindy: "WooKhouse"?) --- Susan, I think that's a good part of why Mr. Knighltey loves Emma so much...she needs him in a way she needs no one else...;) He's invested quite a bit of attention and care into this girl, and he'll be damned if some other blockhead reaps the fruits of his labor! I think that Jane and Mr. Knightley are in many ways too much alike...self-sufficient, circumspect, &c. ...they are almost too perfect for eachother, which takes a lot of the fun out of a relationship.

~Carolineevans Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (10:58) #112

(Also, Cindy:"WooKhouse"?) Give her a break, Kali! We all have a Harrison Ford Fetish!

~Serena Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (16:21) #113

Ok,so Jane's too perfect for Knightley. Let switch to Emma - couldn't Emma's dislike of Jane also stem from how highly Knightley looked upon Jane, perhpas she did believe that ..subconsciously Knightley could have fallen for Jane.. There was no idle flirtation, like between Frank/Emma , but Knightley's sincere concern for the Bates and Jane's comfort, could have added to her dislike of Jane??? Thoughts anyone..

~Anna Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:00) #114

]couldn't Emma's dislike of Jane also stem from how highly Knightley looked upon Jane I think that was part of it Emma resented people in general and Knightley in particular admiring Jane, especiaaly her accomplishments. Jane was as accomplished as Emma would have liked to be, and Emma resented it but was too lazy to do anything about it.

~elder Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (18:06) #115

Cindy (# 110): in the book, I believe Frank goes on about how he "saw Miss Emma Woodhouse first in February", but Emma3 is "first in March" If I'm correct about this, why the switch? I hadn't noticed this before, but you are right. I checked the screenplay, and it says February. Perhaps they decided the "weather" looked more like March than February when Frank first shows up. (Do you suppose they thought some viewers might watch enough to notice such a detail? :-)) P.S. I like your reasoning regarding March being easier to say -- was Frank having trouble concentrating, or what!

~Kali Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (20:59) #116

Emma resented people in general and Knightley in particular admiring Jane, especially her accomplishments. Jane was as accomplished as Emma would have liked to be, and Emma resented it but was too lazy to do anything about it. I think you hit the nail right on the head, Anna...Mr. Knightley is of an age, temperament, and level of personal accomplishment to appreciate others for what they are...Emma is still in a phase in which remarkable people - esp.peers - are still viewed as a threat to her superiority...she'd rather fool with people such as Harriet, whom only make her look more accomplished and capable than she already is...To Mrs. Weston, Mr. Knightley says, " How can Emma imagine she has anything to learn herself, while H rriet is presenting such a delightful inferiority?"

~bernhard Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (23:16) #117

yes, Wookhouse, indeed! I have been LOL all day long at my my stupid fingers! I have a mental picture of all these tall, hairy creatures living at Highbury! walking around roaring at each other! picking strawberries at Donwell! I am excessively diverted!

~Susan Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (00:11) #118

~Susan Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (21:56) #119

Watched (again!) today, and of course have a few more comments. In the beginning, when Mr. Woodhouse tells Emma, "I wish you would not make matches, for whatever you say always comes to pass," don't you love the "See, I told you so!" look that Emma gives Mr. Knightley? No wonder he despaired of ever getting her to listen to him! I also love the ray of light that comes down in the church and illuminates Harriet for Emma (aha, a match for Mr. Elton!). In the scene where Emma is telling Knightley about Harriet's refusal of Robert Martin, I hate that the camera pans away from Mr. Knightley as he says, "You wrote her letter!" I want to see the realization dawn on his face, darn it! I do like how Emma gets defensive here, though, and can't meet his eyes for a moment. I really love the definitive way Knightley says, "ELTON...WON'T...DO!" Someone else mentioned that one of the flute players at the ball looks like Guy Henry, the actor playing John Knightley, and I agree. Guy also reminds me of Hugh Laurie, but that could be because they play the same rather droll characters. For those of you who have seen Emma1, don't you love the portrayal in that production of the scene where Mrs. Elton calls Mr. Knightley Knightley? Doran Godwin's "hhWhooooewww?" is absolutely priceless. I can't watch any other version without missing that. OK, I think that will do until the next viewing. (I'm determined to keep this going!)

~elder Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (05:48) #120

Susan -- I admire your determination exceedingly. I shall attempt to assist you in your endeavor. Agree regarding the discussion of Harriet refusing Robert Martin. Emma's first yes was very straight forward and open; when Mr Knightley repeats the question, she is already on the defensive. He is right, she knows he is right, but there is no way she will admit it. The anger is about the right level, I think, to account for how they act when the John Knightleys arrive. At the Harvest Supper, when Mr Knightley is coming to ask Emma to dance (I love MS's voice on those lines), Kate Beckinsale plays it very well. She's pleased, and happy, but she also is starting to realize that she will be the mistress of a large estate -- a person of responsibility as well as honor/prestige. The screenplay included an apology between Emma & Jane Fairfax. I would have liked to seen that included. It also included some more of Eltons' lines about Knightly moving to Hartfield.

~Serena Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:06) #121

Found the Making of Emma today. Browsed and enjoyed it, couldn't bring myself to pay US30 for it. Saw a lovely photo of MS and KB, in between scenes, and KB was doing a dance on a bench while MS stood gazing up intently at her. Hmmmm...Mr Knightley..

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:21) #122

I want this book...but I'm too poor to buy it! Just cleaned myself out on the Making of P&P2...

~Serena Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:25) #123

Kali, are you still awake?? 6.21am - How much is the Making of P&P2?? I might just order all these books off the internet bookstore, might be cheaper, haven't checked yet.. though.

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:29) #124

Hey, Serena...it's only four twenty-six here in Berkeley...I scrounged the Making Of P&P up from JA Books...$21...you can e-mail them at jabooks@aol.com...they have the Making Of Emma for the same price...

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:30) #125

I've checke dwith the bookstores for The Making of ...either one. Haven't seen 'em! Bleh

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:31) #126

thx, Kal (good morning! yes, I live)

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:32) #127

Hi Cindy! Did you go to work yesterday? ;)

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:34) #128

work? yes, and only 5 minutes late, too! did a lot of things I'll have to check today, tho'

~Serena Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:37) #129

Is anyone out there from Sydney, Aust. and know of a good bookstore?? I might try to buy it there this weekend when I fly in for a short holiday.. Failing which, I'll place an order with JAbooks - night-night & thank you Kali, it's going on 10pm here and that's my time-out.

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:37) #130

Good for you...amazing...I've been awake for 48 hours...can't sleep now, lest I snooze through my midterms today!

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:37) #131

'Night, Serena...good morning, everyone else...

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:39) #132

Kali! coffee? good luck on mid-terms! Is it hard to get motivated with the acceptance letter in hand?

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:40) #133

Terribly hard, Cindy...I have little enough attention-span as it is! ;{

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:43) #134

careful, tho' My last semester (after job in hand) I got two different grades that I had NEVER in my life seen. One was quite round, and the other not-so-round on one side.

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:46) #135

Oooch!

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:47) #136

yeah, not cool (Kali, are we in Chat?)

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:50) #137

Let's go!

~kimmer Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (08:34) #138

Susan, how about the look between Emma and Mr. Elton when they meet during the dance?

~Kali Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (08:42) #139

Look? At the Crown? You mean lack of...he turns his head away from her - a mere aversion of the eyes would have been too subtle a display! Mrs. Elton, however, gives her an evil stare...right down the nose!

~bplaroch Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (13:40) #140

I was home sick yesterday and watched again for a treat! (Only my third time!) Did anyone notice this in the scene after the proposal when they are breaking the news to Mr. Woodhouse: Mr. Woodhouse says something like "Why can't we just go on as before? We see him every day." and Emma replies, "Yes, but we are alone at night." Check out how Mr. Knightley looks at her quickly when she says that and the look she gives him before telling her father about the foxes in the henhouse! I also thought the actor who played John Knightley reminded me very much of Hugh Laurie, especially as his character of Mr. Palmer in S&S. Does anyone know where we can suggest who we would like to receive Cyber-Smacks? It is my dearest wish to deliver one to Fanny (Ferrars) Dashwood, Lucy Steele, and Anne Elliot's sisters Mary and Elizabeth.

~elder Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (14:44) #141

Barbara: "Yes, but we are alone at night." Check out how Mr. Knightley looks at her quickly when she says that and the look she gives him . . . " Oh, yes, Barbara, I love that look. It makes it clear that his attraction is definitely physical as well as emotional, friendship, etc. Then, when you see his expressions while Emma is convincing Mr W -- well, Mark Strong's big brown eyes are used very well here!

~Serena Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (16:40) #142

Kim, are you referring to the dance scene at Crown Inn when Emma / Mr Elton were in the same group of 4. At some points in the dance ,they had to go down together and he was looking arogant and haughty and she had that disgusted look whenever they were 'partners'. Then suddenly, it was Frank she was dancing with again and she would be all smiles and loveliness?? What a long question?? Well, if it that was the moment, it was very well done. Her features worked the change in emotions excellently.

~kimmer Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:03) #143

Yes, Serena, that is the scene I was talking about. I think Mark Strong looks particularly handsome in the scene in which he says "anyone may know how highly I think of her" or something like that. His hat makes him look quite dashing! I even enjoy watching him walk away after he says it. I am in bad shape!

~Anna Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (18:05) #144

re 129: Serena, so far as I'm aware we have no members in Sydney; I'm in Newcastle, 150k north. If you want the "Making of P&P" the ABC bookshops have it, there is one in the Queen Victoria Building Arcade in town. I don't know whether the "Making of Emma" is aroun yet as Emma3 hasn't yet been shown here. The 2 best general bookshops in Sydney are the 'Dymocks' in George St just North of Grace Bros and the big Angus and Robertson on the Mall just North of David Jones...

~elder Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (18:52) #145

I finally received my commercial tape of Emma3. Now I have to retrain my "remote thumb"! (I automatically get set to fast forward through the commercials -- but they aren't there.) I found an extra few seconds of film: just before Mr Knightley arrives to console w/ Emma about FC's engagement, we get to see a bit more of Emma in the garden and next to the pool. Cindy -- regarding the brown-brown outfit for the strawberry picking party: did you notice the brown at the top of Mr Knightley's boots. A nice outfit all around. I really like the hats he wears -- very dashing, indeed, Kim.

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (19:19) #146

mmmm....that brown thing.... Kim, it's just about the same at the strawberry party (which I may have mentioned before) as in his "anyone may notice", but I still go for the "perhaps not" I think it may be that he has a little of the smile left on his face (he's just been trying to avoid looking at Emma's making faces as Mrs. E goes on Kathleen, I am absolutely GREEEEEN with envy, as my thumb is still in action! and, yup, I had noticed the boots thing. Why am I getting so excited about BROWN?! never before, I assure you

~elder Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (19:26) #147

Cindy: and, yup, I had noticed the boots thing Somehow, I thought you had. You are excessively attentive to such things! Why am I getting so excited about BROWN?! never before, I assure you Brown is a very nice color on the right man, I would say, and he must just be the right man. ;-)

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (19:39) #148

oooh, yeah

~kimmer Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (20:13) #149

How about Mr. Knightly when he smiles at Emma right before Frank comes up to her to talk about jane at the harvest festival? What a beautiful smile he has!

~bernhard Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (20:20) #150

Now, that one should have been shown longer!!!!!!

~Serena Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (23:47) #151

Thanks Anna, have it all copied down and in my wallet - ready to spend some money in a good 'ole personal style bookstore. The more I watch Emma3, the more I grow addicted to it. After the Boxhill telling off, he says to her (2nd time round) Badly done INDEED - and he says 'indeed' just like he was going to cry or was really upset with her, or upset with himself for having told her off so harshly.. I cannot decide which one. But it really got me going, remote control, rewinds & fast forwards. It was so touching!!

~Becks Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (23:50) #152

K: When you wake up tomorrow (that's if you sleep), you shall have a pleasant surprise at your doorstep!

~Serena Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (00:33) #153

How exciting? What is it? a gift-wrapped JN at her front door?? Sorry - so nosey huh.

~cassandra Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (00:39) #154

Serena-We are definitely on the same wavelength! Would this wrapping consist only of the flimsiest ribbin/bow?

~Serena Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (00:43) #155

Please, let it be my doorstep!!! Serena's!!! Oops, then he go on to yours Cass.. I'll share

~Kali Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (03:47) #156

You guys are so cute...but he's MINE, I tell you, MINE!!! :) Thanks, Becky...looking forward to it!

~Serena Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (03:56) #157

Maybe it's Mark Strong that's going to be gift wrapped and delivered instead...

~Kali Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (04:09) #158

Okay! :)

~elder Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (05:36) #159

Serena: and he says 'indeed' just like he was going to cry or was really upset with her, or upset with himself for having told her off so harshly.. I can't tell which it is, either, Serena. But did you notice the tears beginning to form in his eyes? It seems that his emotions are just overwhelming him, the anger and the jealousy and the pain and being upset with himself. Nicely done, Mark, nicely done indeed. Sighhhh.

~kimmer Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (08:13) #160

I just saw the picture of the "bald" Mark Strong in the Drool conference. Although I like him better with his "Knightly" hair, he still looks very fine indeed. Would someone please send Mark Strong gift wrapped to me? I would take great pleasure in unwrapping him!

~Mari Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (12:26) #161

Cindy - Why am I getting so excited about BROWN?! never before, I assure you Are you going to change your favorite color over in the drool topic! Hmmm....

~Serena Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (16:19) #162

OHHHH the tears were building up in his eyes - yes Kathleen, I just saw it.. this adaptation does grow on me - the subtleties are INDEED overpowering.

~bernhard Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (18:19) #163

I dunno', Mari, I'll have to read it first.:) I haven't admitted what the current favorite color is to anyone here, but brown certainly couldn't be any worse! Speaking of MS' Knightley losing command of his voice - How 'bout the "that I fe.." in his proposal?

~Susan Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (22:42) #164

I always thought brown was a rather boring color myself, but my viewpoint has definitely changed. MS does beat a hasty exit after that "indeed," doesn't he? Emma is clearly not the only one undone. And I do love the "that I feel" line -- definitely a man who MUST speak, whatever may be the result. I am going to be thinking about what is being delivered every time I see the UPS man now -- brown uniform, brown truck, you know!

~bernhard Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (22:49) #165

oh, if only he could be the UPS man! ok, went back and read the Drool description for my favorite color BROWN yep, it's official - "the color formerly known as boring" TCFKAB?

~Susan Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (23:18) #166

TCFKAB -- my vote is for!

~Kali Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (23:40) #167

You guys have lost it.

~Amy Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (23:44) #168

Tell me, why do the Aussies see humor in this Emma that we Americans can't see or don't appreciate? Point out thing out and let's talk about it. I want to understand this.

~Kali Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (00:05) #169

I appreciated the humor in Emma3, Amy...it just wasn't as cohesively hilarious as Emma2. I guess it's a comparative thing for us. Lucy Robinson's Mrs. Elton was especially funny...I liked the little face she makes after Mr. Knightley tells her off at Donwell. Another touch I liked occurred during the scene at Hartfield where everyone is admiring Emma's painting...talk has dwindled and everyone seems to have finished waxing poetic on the picture, so the servant holding the candelabra moves away, behind the easel...then Mr. Elton pipes up again with more praise, and so the servant shlumps back around in a complete circle, back around the easel, with what I detected to be an air of annoyance...

~bernhard Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (00:12) #170

Kali, that face IS perfect! (Mrs. E's, I mean) & what about "do you like sheep , then?"

~Kali Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (00:26) #171

Yes, that was priceless... "You know I fancy myself quite the shepherdess!" "So do you like sheep,then, Mrs. Elton?" - straight face from Miss Bates.

~Becks Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (15:21) #172

Your imagination is out of control, ladies.......if I had a gift wrapped JN, I would consider keeping him!

~kimmer Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (15:27) #173

Was anyone besides me a little disappointed when the camera pulled so far away after the start of the kiss between Emma and Mr. Knightly?

~Carolineevans Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (16:11) #174

Yep!

~Kali Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (03:02) #175

They looked kind of weird from a distance...like their bodies were contorted and they weren't having much fun...but then again, who wants the camera so close that the man's nose becomes buried in her cheek?

~Kali Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (04:27) #176

~Susan Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (09:30) #177

Was anyone besides me a little disappointed when the camera pulled so far away after the start of the kiss between Emma and Mr. Knightly? Exceedingly so! Their kiss was so gentle, so sweet, so tentative -- they both still felt a little strange about having discovered this change in their love for one another, and having found that they both shared it! To then have the camera pull so far away that I had to get up and stand directly in front of my TV screen and contort my head from one side to the other trying to find the right angle and figure out who was doing what to whom, kinda spoiled the mood. Very vexing, indeed! I think there's a lot of humor in this version, and it makes me outright laugh and also break into AG's at regular intervals. Emma is a very humorous book, but I think the humor of that period is much more understated than what we are used to now, because everything in that time was just more restrained. My VHO.

~kimmer Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (14:56) #178

I am glad to know that someone else got up in front of her television in order to see the kiss better. At first it was hard to tell exactly what they were doing. Oh well, we cannot have everything. Another "look" of Mark Strong I enjoy is after Emma tells him not to commit himself, take a little time. He looks down and keeps looking down in such a disappointed way.

~Susan Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:01) #179

He looks down and keeps looking down in such a disappointed way. Kim, does your heart not break for him in that scene? And then the surprise and joy in his face after she tells him she loves him. His, "Then you do consent?" is so sweetly vulnerable!

~Amy Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:16) #180

There is that vulnerable stuff again. I like it, too, Susan, but darn it, it still bugs me that I do.

~Susan Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:20) #181

Why's that, Amy? Are you an Emma2 fan?

~Amy Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:26) #182

Oh, we went through this a while back. I feel uncomfortable liking that we like the vulnerability in the Austen heros. Everybody tried to convince me that vulnerable is okay in a safe relationship. I guess it didn't stick.

~Susan Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:59) #183

So it's not just a Knightley thing, huh?

~Kali Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (17:58) #184

And what's wrong with being an Emma2 fan?!!! (Gloria Upson voice)

~kimmer Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (19:24) #185

Here I go again! How about when Mr.Knightly is eating his strawberries? He looks darling!

~kimmer Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (19:28) #186

Susan, I am trying to follow your order about keeping this going. I can keep 'em coming as long as you want! Kalli, I recently saw The Net for a second time. I had not realized who he was the first time I saw it many months ago. He was a baddie in that one was he not? I have only seen Emma 2 once in the theatre and an anxious to see it again on video.

~Kali Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (21:31) #187

He was ineed...an incredibly cute psychobastard, no? --- On another note, I can't even look at a strawberry without thinking of Mrs. Elton...and shepardesses...and caro Elton...and all that is "simple and natural" (Lucy Robinson voice)...

~Susan Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:00) #188

Kim, you are entirely too good to me, and Kathleen -- well, you are both the dearest of the dear! I have more observations (do I really need to tell you that I've watched it yet again?). Some of these I just keep forgetting to mention: In the opening scene, I love Knightley's half-smile when he says, "Perhaps!" to Emma's "Especially when one of them is a troublesome creature." Then his look of entreaty to Mr. Woodhouse when Emma says she needs to find someone for Mr. Elton clearly says, "Help me reason with this woman!" I think MS is at his most handsome during John and Isabella's visit when he is alternately playing with his nieces and nephews and making eyes at Emma, then coming over to her and actually making up. His looks at her during this scene -- every woman should be looked at this way at least once in her life (and yes, I have been!). When the party is dining at Hartfield, Jane makes the following comment in response to Mrs. Elton, who mistakenly thinks Jane has spoken of the slave trade: "No, No, the governess trade is all I had in view. A difference as to the guilt of those who carry it on, but as to the misery of its victims, I'm not sure where it lies." And all of this is said while sitting next to Mrs. Weston, a former governess! At the ball, when Mrs. Weston is trying to get Mr. Elton to dance with Harriet, Mr. Elton's "I did not notice Miss Smith" has an extra meaning: She is such an inferior person that I simply was not aware she was even there. At Donwell, when Mr. Knightley says that the only woman who will invite guests to Donwell is Mrs. Knightley, as the camera pans to Emma and she is laughing, Harriet next to her is demurely looking down and appears to possibly already be imagining that she might be that person (this is after the ball, remember). At Box Hill, as Miss Bates is making her "three things" comment, Mr. Knightley is smiling behind her where she cannot see, obviously able to see the truth of her statement, but when Emma makes her biting rejoinder, he looks quickly and unbelievingly at Emma, then his attention is entirely focused on Miss Bates and her pain. He then again looks at Emma with real reproach, but quickly back at Miss Bates. His so-evident concern for Miss Bates's feelings really touches my heart. I would not even mention this last to anyone other than you fellow addicts, but I love, during the proposal scene, the way the "cape" of Mr. Knightley's coat touches the ruffles on Emma's dress as he walks past her (this is just after she says that Frank has imposed on, but not injured her, and just before Knightley rails at how fortunate Frank is). For some reason, this seems really intimate to me; I guess because they are comfortable being that physically close to each other in a time when physical dis ance was both required and expected. I must admit that, with every viewing, MS becomes more and more "my" Knightley. I am unable to find any fault with his performance -- is this the true mark of an obsessive or what? KB won me over at once, but MS steadily makes me appreciate his performance. "Tell me then -- have I no chance of succeeding?" They even look like MS and KB!!

~kimmer Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:38) #189

Susan, have you ever noticed the look Emma throws at Mr. Knightly after he says that she has made Harriet too tall in her portrait? She seems more irritated with him for that remark than when Mrs. Weston said she has not those eyebrows. Also, I was a little surprised that Mr. Knightly would rem ark on Frank being the silly fellow he thought he would be in front of his father and Mrs. Weston. They do not seem offended by his words, more amused than anything. I love Mr. Woodhouse's comment about catching cold if he gets his hair cut too short. I have not noticed the cape/ruffle thing as many times as I have watched it. Oh, boy, now I have a legimate excuse to watch it again. I cannot believe I did not think Mark Strong was handsome the first time I saw this. He is very handsome and sexy...and that voice. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.

~cassandra Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:40) #190

"he was indeed...an incredibly cute psychobastard, no? MAis oui! Absolument! MOnsieur JACk Devlin-tres sexy et son voix!!! And you know-he wasn't a bad Mr KNightley either. In fact, for some of us JN is MR KNIGHTLEY!!!

~Susan Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:58) #191

Kim, you are an angel! have you ever noticed the look Emma throws at Mr. Knightly after he says that she has made Harriet too tall in her portrait? Yes, I have. He is the only one not falling all over her work and she resents it. Plus, I think she wants his approbation more than she realizes, and it pains her when she doesn't get it. Also, I was a little surprised that Mr. Knightly would rem ark on Frank being the silly fellow he thought he would be in front of his father and Mrs. Weston. Mrs. Weston even smiles and laughs after he has left! Yes, I thought it was singularly odd. I cannot believe I did not think Mark Strong was handsome the first time I saw this. He is very handsome and sexy...and that voice. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh. Total dittos! I feel exactly the same way!! Cindy, B est R aiment O on W onderful (K)N ightley! Do come up with something better if you can! And Cassandra and Kali, although I love you both dearly, we are going to have to agree that Mr. Knightley himself is JA's best male character, even though we disagree on who portrays him best. This is the Emma3 thread, after all!

~Serena Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (06:14) #192

This is sad business, here I am on holidays on the most perfect beach in the world..(no not true..not the most beautiful) eh.. Bondi Beach and all I can think off is where I can hook up my computer to see whatI'm missing out on in this topic... Yes, Cass.. JN is Mr Knightley well and truely. There are posters in video shops now promoting the pending video release.. I'm so excited.. will tune in again

~JohanneD Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (11:51) #193

]There is that vulnerable stuff again. I like it, too, Susan, but darn it, it still bugs me that I do. you're at least aware of this, would'nt it be dull not to have dragons to slay?

~elder Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (13:28) #194

Wonderful, wonderful -- I too have been absent for a few days, and it nice to have all these wonderful observations. Susan: I shall have to look at the proposal scene again (!) to check on the cape/ruffles contact, but I did notice how Emma looks at Mr Knightley as he walks past her. In the book, she has to discuss her "behavior" wrt Frank 2 or 3 times before Mr Knightley speaks, and she is afraid he will not forgive her. I think KB captures the uncertainty here very well. And I love the BROWN acronym, Susan -- how very creative. The scene w/ the nieces and nephews really presents this set of adults well. We see Emma and Mr Knightley slowly get back to friendship, and we get the interrelationships among this extended family. I also like the looks Emma and Mr Knightley exchange as Mr Woodhouse is exclaiming about the Christmas Eve visit to be paid to the Westons. A well-played instance of nonverbal communication. [Need to catch up on other topics -- more later!]

~kimmer Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:15) #195

The other day in the chat room I told Susan that I thought her two Emma/Knightly stories were much better than the two sequels I had read. In those two, Mr. Knightly did not come off as a very passionate man until the end of the books. Emma was "happy" but not really "happy" until the ends, also. I have always thought they would have apassionate relationship from the start. Mr. Knightly would understand Emma's innocence and be very gentle, but I do not think for a minute that he would not be passionate. ny comments? Have you noticed at the Christmas scene at the Weston's when Mr. Weston is explaining to Mr. Elton about Frank, Mr. E is very busy " guzzling" his wine, and has to make an effort to stop and pay attention to Mr. W.? See, ladies, I do notice things in Emma other than Mark Strong! Although it can sometimes be difficult.

~elder Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:27) #196

Kim -- yes, indeed, and Mr E keeps drinking (too much, I suspect). After Emma asks him if he does not agree that FC is very handsome, Mr E says something about "appearances can be deceiving" (!), and then he get another glass of wine (at least his third at this point). No wonder he can't take NO for an answer.

~Donna Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:53) #197

Does anyone like Mr. Eltons voice or is it just me.

~kimmer Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (15:00) #198

Donna, I like his voice, too.

~kimmer Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (15:05) #199

All of the wine makes Mr. Elton bold even at dinner. Check out the "look" he gives Emma at the table just before they go into look at Frank's portrait. Rather risque for a cleryman.

~elder Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (17:50) #200

Kim: . . . Mr. Elton bold even at dinner. Check out the "look" he gives Emma at the table just before they go into look at Frank's portrait. He does it again when he rejoins Emma in front of the portrait. (Right after Mr Knightley says "not at all. He is a person I never think of from one month's end to another." I love the enunciation of naw-ta-tall.) But Kim, even clergymen were afflicted with weaknesses of the flesh (and of the pocketbook, I suppose). ;-p

~elder Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (21:40) #201

I knew there was something else I wanted to discuss (what a surpirse ;-)) -- the vulnerability issue. Amy, I am not trying to convince you of anything, just thinking out loud, sort of. The proposal scene is very well done. MS and KB each have a lot of emotions to register, and on the whole I think they do a good job. I like the "Then you do consent?" line, with the uncertainty in his voice, but not just because of the vulnerability. It is more because we know that Mr Knightley is going to soon be incredibly happy. It would be a tragic scene otherwise. There are all sorts of ironies to this scene. Mr Knightley had said that wished he could see Emma in love and in doubt of a return -- well, he does, but he doesn't know it. And he is in the same situation. Emma shuts him off because she is afraid he will tell her he's in love with Harriet, then asks him to continue because she wants to be a good friend, then finds out she's the woman he loves. Anyway, the scene unfolds very nicely in Emma3, and manages to use a lot of JA's own dialogue. And, I rather like them not walking during most of the scene, especially since it allows them to look at one another (which is different from the book).

~Amy Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (22:22) #202

kathleen sed: "Then you do consent?" line, with the uncertainty in his voice, but not just because of the vulnerability. It is more because we know that Mr Knightley is going to soon be incredibly happy. It would be a tragic scene otherwise. ___ It's okay, Kathleen, you can try to convince me vulnerability is okay. I know it is somewhere way down under the shell. I see what you mean about Mr. Knightley. It is romantic to think he is hesitant to ask because it shows how much he cares about the answer. Ahhhh...

~bplaroch Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (23:39) #203

I agree Amy. It's no wonder he is so vulnerable here--think of the huge risk he is taking! Here is this woman he adores, who is the centre of his world, who he has already loved for a long time. If she rejects him, not only will he not have her, but he will really not have the right to the intimacy they used to share just as friends. He is nervous because he really had no intention of proposing to her that day, only to find out if she was really crushed by the news about Frank, and to try and figure out if there was any hope for him. I love how we hear him trying to talk himself into not letting his courage fail him, "No, I have gone too far for concealment..." It is so touching when Emma tells him to take a moment to consider before he commits himself, and he thinks she knows he is about to propose--he has no idea she is thinking of Harriet. This is probably the only time in his life that Mr. Knightley has been so unsure of what to say or do. I think MS did a beautiful job of acting this!

~kimmer Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (08:29) #204

Most of us probably already knew Mr. Knightly and Emma would end up together before we saw this Emma. However, if you had not known, what would have been your first clue?

~Amy Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (08:52) #205

Kim, I remember a little bit about how the truth was revealed to me the first time I read it. I did not tumble until after I realized that if Emma was not to end up with Frank, who, who had already been introduced in the story, was left? Really. I was fooled until then, I do believe.

~elder Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (14:58) #206

Kim -- I first read Emma when I was 19 or 20, and I did not figure it out until Emma realized that she loved Mr Knightley. Even then, I wasn't completely certain that he loved her. The proposal was somewhat surprising to me -- partly because we are in Emma's mind for most of it, I suppose. In Emma3 I think it is somewhat the same, although as you say, we know going in that they end up together. Unlike other novels with romantic stories, however, the "chase" is not the story.

~elder Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (15:05) #207

Amy: It is romantic to think he is hesitant to ask because it shows how much he cares about the answer. Ahhhh... That sums it up pretty well, I would say, Amy. We want the hero and heroine to love each other intensely, and we don't want to feel that either of them is settling or marrying for convenience. I enjoy the manner in which Emma3 brings out the various levels/layers of the relationship between Emma & Mr Knightley. We see them as old friends, as being related through John & Isabella, as sharing responsibility for Mr Woodhouse (and later, Miss Bates). Then, we see that they love each other emotionally and physically. It's done in a very convincing way.

~kimmer Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (18:55) #208

Kathleen, the loving each other physically is so obvious in the look they give each other when Emma says "we are alone at night." As you said earlier, JA would not have included that in her novel, but I thought it was a nice touch. Emma looks away first, but Mr, Knightly continues to look a little longer.Ahhhhhh!

~kimmer Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (18:57) #209

As for knowing when they would get together, I saw Emma 1 before I read the book, and I was shocked when Mr. Knightly professed his love.So when I read the book, I already knew the outcome.

~ayelet Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (22:29) #210

I only saw Emma2, and my first clue, although I already knew it from watching "Clueless" was at the ball, after knightly dances with Harriet, and Emma asks him to dance with her, and reminds him: "We're not a brother and sister, you know, and goes to the ballroom, he stays outside for a few seconds and says: "No, certainly not"

~Kali Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (01:10) #211

Dearest Susan, this is the Emma3 thread, but as I am an amphibious Emma adaptation fan, I retain the right to digress from time to time. This is a DISCUSSION group after all, and not the Cultural Revolution central office! (Smile!) In addition, it seems that everyone is so enamored of Mark Strong that they ignore my postings on other, very pertinent Emma3 subjects and become aroused only when I write the words "Jeremy Knightley" or post his picture...;)

~Ann2 Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (01:34) #212

Oh, dearest Kali, thanks for my morning laughter. Now I shall go happily to my labour. How are the coins coming along?

~Kali Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (02:50) #213

Hiya, Ann! Glad I'm entertaining somebody out there...;) Coins coming along well...Got one with Faustina on it today...;)

~elder Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (05:28) #214

Kali: they ignore my postings on other, very pertinent Emma3 subjects and become aroused only when I write the words "Jeremy Knightley" or post his picture...;) Kali -- I am sooo sorry. :-) I did not know you were feeling ignored. Let's see, one of the Emma3 subjects you mentioned was the Mrs Elton strawberry picking scene. In the screenplay, after the "Are you fond of sheep, then" remark by Miss Bates, the conversation covers the rest of the dialogue from the book -- about nothing better, red currants superior, intolerable heat, etc. I wish that had stayed in the film. Please, don't wait so long next time before asking for our assistance in discussing Emma3 -- that's what friends for, after all.

~kimmer Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (08:37) #215

For Kali: I watched Carrington recently, and I thought JN played one of Emma Thompson's lovers. The one that said he did not like her very much. Was that him? To me, Mark Strong is the perfect Mr. Knightly. I cannot help it; he does it for me. Especially in his hats!

~elder Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (16:43) #216

Kim: To me, Mark Strong is the perfect Mr. Knightly. I cannot help it; he does it for me. Especially in his hats! I too love the hats. I like them so much better than the more formal hats most of the men wore in P&P2. I also like Mr Knightley's coats -- the fancy jackets (at the ball and one dinner party?) have a velvet collar, and the overcoat has the cape (in the proposal scene). Very nice wardrobe, yet not overly fancy-schmancy!

~kimmer Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (17:22) #217

I know what you mean, Kathleen about the hats in P&P. I did not like the one Darcy is wearing during the second propasal. I t seemed to smash his face down, if you know what I mean. I really like the cape on Mr.Knightly"s coat. It reminds me of my husband's duster.

~Kali Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (17:56) #218

Thanks, guys...but I was half-joking with you...yes, Kathleen...I did like the progressively negative strawberry comments in the novel... Yes, Kim...JN was in Carrington...they did it on a boat against the drawers...

~elder Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (18:21) #219

I think the costumes were a big help in showing the characters being played. There is a great pic in "The Making of Emma" which shows the leading men in costume for the harvest supper (I think). Frank Churchill, Robert Martin, Mr Knightley, Mr Weston, Mr Elton, and Mr John Knightley. It is a beautiful picture (if you ignore the styrofoam coffee cups), which shows how much the difference in clothes can tell us about the character. Mr Elton & Mr John Knightley are the only two not in boots, which I had not noticed in the movie. (I guess I will just have to watch again.) ;-)

~Kali Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (18:24) #220

Because they fancy themselves cosmopolitan? ;)

~kimmer Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (19:24) #221

Kali, I will grant you that JN has a nice body. I got to see quite a bit of it "against the drawers ". Emma Thompson is a lucky girl. Love scenes with JN and Rufus Sewell in the same movie.

~kimmer Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (19:27) #222

Mr. Elton's black clergyman clothes looked much better on him than Mr. Collins' did on him.

~elder Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (21:08) #223

Question: What happens to Harriet at the end of the Box Hill picnic? She came w/ Emma, and she & Frank are headed down the hill toward the Woodhouse carriage. But when Mr Knightley helps Emma into the carriage there is no Harriet to be seen. (I bet the filmmakers thought I wouldn't notice!) I agree that Mr Elton looks better in black than Mr Collins -- but then Mr C looked silly, regardless of the clothes. Possibly Mr Elton & Mr John Knightley were trying for a more cosmopolitan look. Mr Weston, Mr Knightley and certainly Mr Robert Martin were country folk. But that doesn't explain Frank Churchill's boots -- maybe they were fashionable for someone in his position (or maybe Enscombe was considered "country" as well).

~Amy Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (21:47) #224

Boots = farming or riding?

~elder Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (21:57) #225

Good point, Amy. But these boots were worn at the Harvest supper -- so, would riding boots make sense here? And Mr Knightley certainly did not have to ride to Donwell Abbey. But, all the boots I saw seemed to be very nice boots, even though not so dressy as Darcy & Bingley seemed to wear most of the time in P&P2.

~Amy Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (22:09) #226

Boots = farming or riding lifestyle?

~Meggin Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (22:55) #227

Boots=strong calves shown to best advantage!!!!!!

~Susan Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (23:19) #228

What a nice surprise to check in after two days and find so many wonderful messages! Where to begin? Mr. Knightly would understand Emma's innocence and be very gentle, but I do not think for a minute that he would not be passionate. Kim, yes, I have never for an instant doubted Mr. Knightley's passion, but then you already knew that, didn't you? #'s 201 and 203, Kathleen and Barbara -- beautiful interpretations of the proposal scene, with which ITA! #206, Kathleen -- When I first read the book I also didn't have a clue about Emma's feelings for Knightley until she finally realized them, and then I was very surprised later to find that he shared them. Kim, the first time I thought it really showed in Emma3 was in the scene where John and Isabella are visiting, and Emma and Knightley cannot bear to be at odds. Those looks! To me, Mark Strong is the perfect Mr. Knightly. I cannot help it; he does it for me. Especially in his hats! What you said, Kim! Kathleen, re #223 -- Good point regarding what happens to Harriet at Box Hill. I have always assumed that she eventually comes and gets in the carriage with Emma as she did in both other versions, but they do leave us hanging in this one, don't they? Dearest Kali, for dearest you will always be -- your posts are most welcome and eagerly received, even if you are fixated on that JN fellow! My point was that we shall never convince one another to change our point of view on who best portrays our most wonderful Mr. Knightley, but this in no way inhibits discussion, as Cass and I have discovered in chat. It places no limits whatsoever on general Knightley drooling! (Even if MS is infinitely superior!)

~bernhard Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (23:53) #229

Kali re: #211 ...and become aroused only when I write the words "Jeremy Knightley" or post his picture...;) Just one comment on this - No Kidding! ;)

~Kali Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (00:41) #230

Snort, Cindy! I love you too, Susan...! ;) --- I read somewhere that early 19th century menswear was styled after riding clothes, even for guys who didn't ride much. As for Frank, he DOES ride quite a bit...remember his black mare, which Mrs. Weston always fears will toss Frank on his head?

~kimmer Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (08:32) #231

Kathleen, if I remember correctly from the book, Harriet is supposed to be in the carriage with Emma for the ride from Box Hill. I believe she is in the carriage in Emma 1 and Emma 2. Susan, I was wondering what had happened to you. What new Mark Strong item can we discuss now? I fear I may have watched this production too much. I actually caught myself saying, "Badly Done" the other day.

~Donna Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (12:36) #232

What new Mark Strong item can we discuss now? Did you notice that he has eyes when he is kissing Emma? Why do guys get these long eyelashes? I wonder if he had to use any eye make-up. Does anyone know? I doubt it very much.

~Donna Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (12:37) #233

DTBT- Did you notice his eyes when kissing Emma?

~kimmer Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (17:17) #234

LOL Donna. I wondered what you meant about him "having" eyes. I must admit I have not really noticed them while he is kissing. I will watch again to see. I have noticed his eyes in other scenes. They are beautiful, are they not?

~elder Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (18:42) #235

Mark Strong's eyes are quite "to lose oneself in" I'd say. And his eyebrows are impressive as well -- I like the way they frame his eyes when KB/Emma tells him not to speak.

~kimmer Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (19:23) #236

I agree Kathleen. I love his eyes and his voice. I cannot tell about his body though. He is always covered up too much. However, I am sure it is as fine as the rest of him. As for his hair, it sometimes looks quite flat in some scenes and "puffier" in others.

~elder Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (19:30) #237

Yes, Kim, the "hair" is occasionally a problem. What with the different takes, and editing of the film, you get different looks to the hair -- it even seems to be darker in some scenes and more reddish/brown in others. (Or do you suppose they had more than one hairpiece for him?) Have we discussed his hands, yet? You can see them in the anagram scene, and they seem very nice. Obsessions can be fun, especially when they're shared! ;-p

~kimmer Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (19:48) #238

Kathleen, I noticed his nice hands in the dream of Emma's in which he is placing the ring on Jane's finger. Was he really wearing a hairpiece? I thought he might have just grown it long for Emma. I know he does not have much to speak of. I am happy to know there are other Mark Strong obsessed pe ople out there. At first I thought I was the only one, so I kept my mouth shut However after finding this thread I am able to let it all hang out.

~elder Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (20:02) #239

Kim -- thank you for reminding me of the Jane/wedding fantasy. I knew there was another scene showing his hands, but I couldn't remember where. Re: the hair. The pictures of MS show too much of a receding hairline for him to be able to grow. Also, in the video interview with him at the A&E site (http://www.aetv.com/scenes/emma/emma3.html#strong) the interviewer starts with a comment about the hair. (My computer couldn't play the video very well, and the sound was a bit fuzzy, but it was nice to hear that voice.)

~bernhard Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (21:41) #240

and yet another viewing - this time without commercials! Hooray! More notes taken - some for the first time, others just a further appreciation: - I noticed Elton's line-of-sight as the discussion of Harriet's absence at the Christmas Eve dinner wound down - straight down Emma's dress!!!! - I love Jane's adoration of Frank as she rounds him during the dance! - (my beloved strawberry party!) Mrs. Elton's appreciation of how natural they all are "no form or parade" but she wishes they could have come on a donkey with her caro sposo walking alongside (kinda' sounding more like a parade!) - Jane's eyes telling Frank to "shut up" after he says that she's a complete angel Ok, now a question: Mrs. Weston, married lady that she is, doesn't have her head covered at the harvest dinner. After I noticed this, it seemed like there were other times, too. Wha?

~elder Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (22:06) #241

Cindy -- I noticed that bare headed look for Mrs Weston, too. Maybe she gets dispensation because she's a newlywed? But what about Mrs Elton then? Oh, the confusion! Cindy, Susan, Kim, and other Mark Strong appreciators -- check out the new MS drool topic that Amy added for us.

~bernhard Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (22:19) #242

RE: MS drool Bless you, Amy!

~Susan Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (23:42) #243

Amy, were we getting a little too daggy over here for you?!! ;-)

~Amy Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:04) #244

] Amy, were we getting a little too daggy over here for you?!! ;-) __ No, Susan. It was tame. It just occurred to me that with several posts in a row about admiring different parts of his physical self, it sounded like drool to me.

~kimmer Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (08:24) #245

I apologize if I became too enamoured of Mark Strong's physical attributes here. I will try to contain myself.

~Amy Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (12:57) #246

No, no. Kim, everybody, please don't misunderstand me. I was only filing, not judging.

~elder Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (13:43) #247

Kim -- no need to apologize or contain yourself! What will the rest of us do if we lose our BROWN fan. We can discuss Mr Strong in two topics now -- what fun!

~Mari Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (14:06) #248

Meggin - Boots=strong calves shown to best advantage!!!!!! Yes! Yes! Ladies all; have been too busy to visit the past few days, and your industry has suprised and pleased me more than I can say. Kim and Kathleen - Go Brown Go! Rah! ;-)

~bplaroch Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (15:53) #249

A question for those of you who own the Making of Emma book: Does anyone know if any other actor was ever considered for the role of Knightley in this production or any other actress for the role of Emma? I love KB and MS, but I was just wondering? It seems to me I read that CF was always the one that Sue Birtwistle had in mind for P&P2--maybe she felt the same about MS?

~elder Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (19:04) #250

I didn't see anything specifically how the casting was done. But it appears that they cast Kate Beckinsale first, then found MS for Mr Knightley. They wanted the two leads to appear to be about 16 years apart in age. Raymond Coulthard makes an interesting comment. He said that he was early for his meeting with the casting director (Janey Fothergill). He didn't know the novel so he bought a copy of York Notes (sounds similar to the Cliff's Notes we U.S. college grads know), to get a quick idea of the characters. He decided he would be most interested in the FC part and of course that's what he got.

~Kali Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:12) #251

That sounds like a very Frank thing to do...

~Kali Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:26) #252

KB is quoted at the Meridian site on the subject of headwear...she and the costume designer apparently decided that hats, rather than bonnets, would fit Emma's character best...boy, did they take that conversation to heart! Emma is never caught outside without a hat (except during the proposal scene at Hartfield). To be perfectly honest, I thought most of the hats quite dreadful...the big, maroon, puffy frump with the feathers is particularly menacing in an old-maidy sort of way. The general effect was that of a young woman aspiring to battle-axedom before her time, which doesn't suit the youthfully-exuberant Emma (no matter how much she protests about the whole marriage thing). I did like the wide-brimmed straw hat she wears at Donwell (that dress wasn't bad either...), however. In contrast, Gwyneth Paltrow rarely wears anything on her head...the emphasis is on her cute hairdos, bright clothes, and sunny personality...in fact, the only characters in Emma2 who are religious about head coverings are Mrs. and Miss Bates...the old lady and the old maid.

~elder Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:39) #253

I believe it would have been considered very proper to wear a hat or bonnet outdoors -- for everyone, not just old women. After all, a "lady" was not supposed to get a tan (or freckles, like Miss King in P&P). I quite liked the hats KB wore as Emma; I thought they expressed different aspects of her personality and fashion sense very well. KB also mentions the trouble she and Samantha Morton (Harriet) had in some scenes where they were both wearing hats with wide brims. It created problems with a close-up of the two of them. (Another scene where KB is outside w/o a hat is when she & Harriet are discussing Mr Martin's proposal.)

~Kali Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:06) #254

...And they are in the shade during that scene, are they not? ;) No, I can't argue with the propriety of headgear...however, I think the deliberate (-ly hideous) selections made by the costumer in Emma3, in contrast to the determined focus away from Emma's headwear in Emma2 (the only bonnet I can remember is the one Paltrow wears when she gets stuck in the creek, and it's pretty benign), serves to mark the divergence in character between the two Emmas. The number and style of KB's hats lend her an old, awkish air, while the style and scarcity of Paltrow's bonnets help create an aura of youthful sweetness...remember, I was the one who called Beckinsale's portrayal "bitchy," but not bad...and now that we consider the consistency in which KB's head is covered, in addition to the nastiness of most of the coverings, perhaps I should add the word "anal" to my description, as well.

~elder Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:10) #255

Another instance of agree to disagree, I suppose.

~Kali Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:20) #256

Of course...

~Susan Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:48) #257

I apologize if I became too enamoured of Mark Strong's physical attributes here. I will try to contain myself. Kim, dear, please do not even try! Just hie yourself over to the MS drool section and LET YOURSELF GO CRAZY! ;-P"

~Donna Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (23:06) #258

I like the BROWN hat that Kate wears when she shows Frank the town. It shaped like a Hershey's Kiss *smooch*;-)

~Kali Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (00:07) #259

Very perceptive, Donna...but I still thought it was yucky! ;)

~elder Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (06:21) #260

Two comments on the Box Hill scene. (1) The Eltons are sitting too far from the rest of the group. Mrs Elton would not have wanted to be out of the "center" of attention. I believe that she was close to Jane (in the novel -- don't have a copy handy.) (2) The servants were an interesting touch. When I read the book, I never imagined that this excursion/picnic was such a production. I especially liked the shot of the servants relaxing at the bottom of the hill until the gentry were ready to leave.

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