Understanding Regency society

Topic 145 of 180: Lady Cathrine& Rosings Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (22:36) | ayelet dahan (ayelet) I wondered about that one day, and asked my mother if she knew the answer, since she (and all my family, I asked them all) didn't. I decided that you may have an answer, so here it is: Fact one: Mrs. Bennet isn't going to get Longbourn after Mr. Bennet will die, we know that for sure. Fact two: LC GOT Rosings when HER husbund died. Now my question is: HOW SO??? 6 new of 6 responses total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 145 of 180 [austen]: Lady Cathrine& Rosings Response 1 of 6: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (23:54) * 3 lines Ayelet dear, Mr. Bennet's estate is entailed, meaning by law it will go to the nearest male heir, this is how Mr. Bennet recieved Longbourn. We do not know from whom, it is presumed his father, but it could very well be a distant relation. Mr. Collins is Mr. Bennet's nearest male relation and so will inherit Longbourn upon Mr. Bennet's death. Rosings is not entailed...meaning it will pass on to whomever the owner stipulates in a will, in this case, Lady Catherine was willed it from her husband and she will will it to her daughter, Anne. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 145 of 180 [austen]: Lady Cathrine& Rosings Response 2 of 6: ayelet dahan (ayelet) * Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (22:11) * 1 lines But what makes that diffrence? I mean, why would one estate be entitled to males, and one won't? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 145 of 180 [austen]: Lady Cathrine& Rosings Response 3 of 6: Anna (Anna) * Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (22:32) * 13 lines ] why would one estate be entitled to males, and one won't? Ayelet, an entail would have arisen when a recent male ancestor made his will; Property became entailed when a man created an entail in his will; that is he left it to his heir on certain conditions, those conditions mainly being that the heir could not sell any part of the property, and that it would be inherited by his closest male-line kin on his death. The property wasn't entailed forever; an entail expired after two (I think, maybe 3) generations, and if two generations (the heir and his heir) agree they can get together and remove the entail. Besides keeping the property in the male line (something that wouldn't concern me but was important to many of the gentry in regency England), the entail kept the property intact; the owner had the use of it, but couldn't sell it nor leave smaller estates to several people; although rough on the daughters and younger sons, this kept the power arising from a larger estate intact. Often when an entail ran-out the current holder would re-entail it, but this was at his discretion. There was no legal obligation on any one to form an entail. So; Mr Bennet's property was entailed bevause one of his ancestors thought it would be a good idea, Lady Catherine's wasn't because neither he nor any of his recent ancestors thought it necessary. I think HC has some info on entails on his web page, I read it a while ago however, so I don't know the address off hand, but the main page is in the links here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 145 of 180 [austen]: Lady Cathrine& Rosings Response 4 of 6: Henry (churchh) * Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (08:22) * 2 lines http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/pptopic2.html#entail Chapter 29, Lady Catherine: ``Your father's estate is entailed on Mr. Collins, I think. For your sake,'' turning to Charlotte, ``I am glad of it; but otherwise I see no occasion for entailing estates from the female line. -- It was not thought necessary in Sir Lewis de Bourgh's family.'' ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 145 of 180 [austen]: Lady Cathrine& Rosings Response 5 of 6: ayelet dahan (ayelet) * Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (22:07) * 1 lines Oh, thank you, sorry for creating a topic about it, amy, you're doing a spring cleaning, don't you? will you be so kind as to earse this topic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 145 of 180 [austen]: Lady Cathrine& Rosings Response 6 of 6: Amy (Amy) * Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (23:57) * 1 lines Don't worry about it, Ayelet. We may want a topic on entailment, or may just move this to that other topic about Regency society. Don't ever anybody feel as if they cannot create a topic just because we are trying to pare down on them.

I know we've touched on this before, but now that we have an official topic: Can someone here post the Rules of Propriety in terms of the dealings between the sexes during the Regency? Covering acceptable touching, letter-writing, _social_ intercourse, etc. Thanks!

Last several messages posted to "Rules of Propriety" topic. Messages posted before Christmas (including a lot of good introductory info and links, Amy2) are now filed in the AustenArchive conference. Now stop me before I clean some more. ____ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 49 of 80: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Wed, Dec 25, 1996 (06:12) * 2 lines My, we've certainly gotten away from the notion of propriety, haven't we How about "Fitzie"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 50 of 80: Mari Topitzes (Mari) * Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (12:42) * 13 lines ''What did Elizabeth call Darcy after their marriage?'' - Meggin My own personal fantasy has the scene thus..... (Takes place during the conversation the day after they become engaged, on their long ramble). ''My dearest, lovliest Elizabeth.'' he declared softly, looking all the while closely at her, the better to enjoy the flush that always came to her cheeks when he named her thus. She cast her eyes down, and began to speak, but stopped suddenly. He continued to look at her as she hesitated. Finally, she spoke. ''I find that I was about to address as Mr. Darcy, but perhaps you would prefer another form of address...?'' ''Most call me Darcy, of course, and some, friends from school, still call me Fitz, as did my father.'' Here he paused, and then began again, in a tone yet more quiet than even before, ''My mother and sister alone, of all those who know me, have called me William.'' He glanced away, as if the strength of the feelings revealed in his gaze would prompt her to an answer that she might not be prepared to give. She understood the unspoken question, and answered it with a tenderness of heart equal to that which prompted the request. She spoke only the name; '' William'', and smiled as his eyes rose to hers. An answering smile, full of love and tenderness, came to his countenance, and they stood thus bemused for a full minute, before they continued their walk. ....I must leave you now, as I take pleasure in a great many things, and our pizza has arrived. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 51 of 80: Mary C. Fox (MaryC) * Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (17:04) * 1 lines I wish I had your gift for creative writing, Mari. It was one of the most difficult of the journalism and literary courses I had to complete in college. Well, done. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 52 of 80: Saman Moeed (Saman) * Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (17:13) * 7 lines Re: response 49 - Henry, no Fitzie, I beg of you!! Fitzie is the nickname of the All Black captain (I'd better explain that, hadn't I?) The All Blacks are New Zealand's rugby team and their captain at the moment is Sean Fitzpatrick. I have no doubts as to his ability as a forward (read big bloke) in the game of rugby, but to be confronted with the image of him when thinking of Darcy is, well, insupportable. I'll forgive you Henry - but only because I didn't wish you a happy birthday ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 53 of 80: Linda (Linda409) * Sat, Dec 28, 1996 (11:19) * 4 lines Re: Response 50 Oooooo, Mari!! That is excessively romantic!!!! Capital! Capital! It must have happened exactly that way. Linda ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 54 of 80: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Sat, Dec 28, 1996 (20:12) * 1 lines How about a simple but elegant "Mister"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 55 of 80: France (alfresco) * Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (21:32) * 1 lines Given marrieds' predilection for calling each other Mr Bennet and Mrs Bennet, etc., one supposes it may have ended up Mr. Darcy and Mrs Darcy after all (until more private moments where he may have addressed her as "my little Boobytrap and she may have replied "my darling Daggykins") ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 56 of 80: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (00:59) * 1 lines France, you are sooooo bad! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 57 of 80: Leslie (Leslie) * Wed, Feb 5, 1997 (09:21) * 3 lines HC... I rather like Fitzie. I think it is very endearing. Prey tell..."daggykins"!! By the way, is anyone going to the JASNA tour of England in June??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 58 of 80: kathleen (elder) * Wed, Feb 5, 1997 (22:14) * 5 lines Leslie: By the way, is anyone going to the JASNA tour of England in June??? No, although I certainly looked at it longingly. I have decided to do the 1-week Jane Austen course at Oxford the end of July, however. This is a trip I have thought about for several years, and this year I shall finally get to it! A full week discussing the six novels, much as we do here now that I think about it, but face to face and in Oxford. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 59 of 80: Inko (Inko) * Wed, Feb 5, 1997 (22:18) * 1 lines Kathleen, tell me more! How does one hear about this course at Oxford, and can anyone join?? I'll probably be in England around that time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 60 of 80: Amy (Amy) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (06:46) * 2 lines Sounds like heaven. Could I ever manage it, I wonder. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 61 of 80: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (11:13) * 1 lines That does sound heavenly! But it's rather a short period of time to discuss SIX NOVELS, isn't it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 62 of 80: kathleen (elder) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (17:50) * 16 lines Oh yes, Amy2, it is far too short a period. But for some of us a lifetime may be too short -- hence my continuing to read this conference, lurk at Austen-L, and reread all the novels. By the way, even if you are merely interested in the programs, this "course" that I am taking is part of University Vacations (U.S. Headquarters) International Building 10461 NW 26 St Miami, FL 33172 1-800-792-0100 They will send you a brochure of this years courses (a wide variety around European universities). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 63 of 80: Leslie (Leslie) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (19:18) * 2 lines I have another question about manners during the regency, and I am sure there is someone in JA land who can answer. I have just finished watching Volume 6 for who knows how many times! Lydia is so rude to Jane when she told her, NO JANE, I take your place, for I am a married woman. What was rank order in the family during this time? The JASNA SC Chapter is having a tea at the Mills House in Charleston SC. We are all going to wear Regency dress etc.. I just can't wait. I know it is not Oxford, but it is th best I can do for the present with these hideous graduate studies that take me away from JA. My husband said as a graduation present that he will send me on a JA trip of England. I hope is true to his word! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 64 of 80: Johanne (JohanneD) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (19:27) * 1 lines Graduation present : you lucky gal. And lucky to be wearing a period dress too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 65 of 80: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (20:45) * 1 lines Leslie, they had a long discussion of the topic of precedence on AUSTEN-L; there are many possible complicating factors, but the basic rule here is that the daughters of a family take precedence according to seniority (i.e. in order of date of birth), BUT all married daughters take precedence above all unmarried daughters. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 66 of 80: Ann Rydberg (Ann2) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (03:16) * 7 lines Kathleen!! Thanks ever so much for above information. Heavenly as Amy did put it! This University Vacation thing is all around the world then? Maybe I should try to find a European adress instead of the one you so kindly offered. I would not be able to say much, but then I have heard somewhere that the rewards of observing and reflecting are not bad either... Went through tape 1 last nigth -as I can't use home pc(oh how I miss you all from chatroom)- and Lydia's bad manners are all around, and though she gets some reproaches from Lizzy and Mr Bennet, she is only momentarily corrected. She never seems to do any reflecting, unless it involves officers in one way or the other!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 67 of 80: Leslie (Leslie) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (07:11) * 1 lines Thankyou HC. What would we do without you. I have just bookmarked Austen-L. I will explore it further. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 68 of 80: kathleen (elder) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (09:07) * 14 lines Re: #66 Ann2 -- the European Headquarters for University Vacations is Brasenose College Oxford, England ON1 4AJ Phone: 01865-277844 There are courses at Florence-Siena, Harvard, Oxford, the Sorbonne, Cambridge, Univ. of Leiden, Univ. of Bologna, Charles Univ. in Prague, and Pontifical Gregorian Univ. in Rome. As I mentioned previously, I have been considering this vacation option (and saving money!) for about 10 years. When I was working in a consulting firm, I did not have enough time (or energy) to do it right. But now that I have extra time off in the summer it just seemed like the perfect vacation. (I shall, of course, spend some additional time in London which is one of my favorite cities.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 69 of 80: AnneY (Yeago) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (14:42) * 2 lines I am new here, and have enjoyed reading this conference. (My husband tries and actually watched P&P, but he would NEVER read the book. oh well. I beleive Jane Austen once wrote a line in a letter about sitting next to a splendidly half-dressed lady at a dinner party? Apparently, due to the French Revolution ladies dampened down their underclothes, which left their dresses very clingy! And the men wore such tight breeches that they could not sit at dances or even have a pocket sewn inside! Bottom line: when Price Albert died in 1861, THINGS CHANGED! Jane Austen probably wouldn't have seen the Victorian age and its restrictiveness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 70 of 80: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (17:01) * 10 lines I think the extremes of sheerness and daringness were more or less confined to Paris etc., and didn't have that much of an effect on rural Hampshire gentlewomen (though the fashions from mid 1790's to about 1820 were less confining and cumbersome than later Victorian dress...). The quote you mention is from a letter of January 8th, 1801: ``Martha and I dined yesterday at Deane to meet the Powletts and Tom Chute, which we did not fail to do. Mrs. Powlett was at once expensively and nakedly dressed; we have had the satisfaction of estimating [the value of] her lace and her muslins; and she said too little to afford us much other amusement.'' Click here for a drawing which makes fun of the Classically-inspired styles when they were just coming into fashion (1797). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 71 of 80: AnneY (Yeago) * Sun, Feb 9, 1997 (14:50) * 4 lines TMHC Thanks for the drawings! I'm such a novice, I can hardly turn on a computer! But I'm learning...You are right about fashion. But even now, ugly shoes in Paris last month, mean ugly shoes in the USA this month! The studies at Oxford sound wonderful. My elder brother went to one of the Oxford colleges (am I wording this right?) and loved Europe so much he lives there! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 72 of 80: AnneY (Yeago) * Sun, Feb 9, 1997 (15:09) * 1 lines TMHC I just got back from that WEB page. I'm speechless. My husband's partner can't get their's launched. I bow to the master! I need to study the HTML page so I can put in someone winking, so just use your imagination! I have to go play Legos now! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 73 of 80: Leslie (Leslie) * Sun, Feb 9, 1997 (18:06) * 2 lines My dear HC, Is there anything about JA that you do not know? I think half of my JA bookmarks are from your tidbits! Do you smile too much from all these compliments?? Prey tell... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 74 of 80: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:09) * 1 lines Am I remembering correctly that it was the fashion in Paris for a time for women to actually go topless in evening dress? Or am I having a St. Tropez flashback? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 75 of 80: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:52) * 2 lines Re: 44:71 -- Anne, but fashions may not be as extreme in Peoria as they are in Paris. Re:44:74 -- I don't know if they actually went topless, but I think there was a sub-fashion to have tops of the breasts completely bare. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 76 of 80: Johanne (JohanneD) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (16:28) * 16 lines I once wrote an awfully big post which I then lost, and just was too lazzy to rewrite, so let me try this once more : In France, around 1795, this period was called the Directoire and in politics Greek democracy was then a model to follow, the First Consul considered Roman democracy as ideal and its how the greek and roman influences inspired the French woman how to dress. Paris was then the capital of fashion. Men's costume had nothing to do with Antiquity. At this time, it was considered very modern for a woman to carry her wardrobe in only one bag. Until 1797, fabrics became slowly but surely lighter and sheerer.. It as then that tule replaced muslin, being the most transparent. In winter, women wore as undergarment something resembling the stockings of today. The breasts were more and more uncovered and wore very high. Madame Tallien, n�e Cabarrus, was Queen of Fashion around 1795. Knowned as Notre-Dame de Thermidor, mistress of Barras (member of the Directoire and secretary to the Municipal Counsel of Paris), she was the center of attention wherever she went. She possessed all the intellectual and physical qualities, and thus had nothing to conceal. So her dress was nothing more than a piece of silk covering her body. In the Fall, she appeared at a ball at the Op�ra de Paris in a sleeve-less silk tunic and no undergarm nts, rings on her toes and sandals on her feet. At the beginning of the XIXth century, appeared Les Incroyables (incredible) and their feminin counterparts Les Merveilleuses (wonderful), the undergrown rebels of the time (equivalent to the punks of 1979). Their way of dressing was more in the line of caricaturing than being well dress. The men would exagerate English fashion to the point of rendering it absurd. The big white cravate, as big as a small cape, wrapped not only the neck but also the chin. They wore the obligatory blue jacket to short in f ont and dragging in the back. During the Consulat (1799-1804), the too light muslin were now insufficient and did not respond to the parisian climate. For this and for political reason, the Emperor Napol�on forbid all import of Indian muslin, and giving new life to the silk trade of Lyon. Under Napol�on, warmer fabrics came to fashion, like taffetas, velvet and brocades. The low-kneck dress were not so low anymore and long sleeves were in fashion. With short sleeves dress, gloves would be worn. In day-to-day fashion, the dress would b short enough not to drag anymore. The only exception remains for two dresses, one for a ball and one worned as an official court dress. Around 1810, dresses stopped at the ankle so to see the flat shoes. The waistline went slowly downward. Colors came back in fashion but White was predominant. Napol�on wanted to continue some of Versailles traditions and so ordered painters David and Isabey to draw ceremonial dresses, thus sumptuous cape embroided with gold and silver, diamond necklace and rare bird feathers, spanish collar in fine lace. The Emreperor could not stand seeing a woman dressed twice in the same apparel and thought fashion a c nsiderably important commercial export, knowing full well that the eyes of Europe, Eastern-Europe and America was upon Paris. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 77 of 80: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:57) * 2 lines Thanks, Johanne. This is the first message I have printed out in a long time because I want to read it carefully. You said you studied this stuff? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 78 of 80: Anne (Yeago) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (20:59) * 1 lines Thanks Johanne. Often I feel like the Bennett sisters are wearing night gowns! There is so much I would enjoy learning, these sites have whetted my appetite! thanks to TMHC, I'll be reading and not posting for a while...! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 79 of 80: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (10:53) * 1 lines Johanne, thanks! Sounds like Izaac Mizrahi would have loved this period! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 44 of 181 [austen]: Rules of propriety: Regency vs Victorian Response 80 of 80: Amy (Amy) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (10:57) * 3 lines Oh good. My favorite time of day. I get to watch Amy2 tearing through the topics. She responds quicker almost than I can read.

Moved from old topic, "Pin money & special license" Topic 56 of 181: pin-money & special license Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (20:19) | Zimei Sun (Zimei) When Mrs. Bennet is told about Lizzy's engagement to Darcy, she exclaims "... Oy! my sweetest Lizzy! how rich and how great you will be! What pin-money, what jewels and what carriages you will have! ...And a special license. You must and shall be married by a special license. ..." I didn't understand what pin-money and special licens were until I read What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew by Daniel Pool. In case someone else has been wondering them, here is what they are: pin-money is "an allowance given to a woman upon her marriage - frequently bargained for explicitly as part of the marriage settlement between the families of a prospective husband and wife - to be spent on small household items or for personal adornment." As a matter of fact, in JA time before a marriges took place, lawyers of two families would get togather to negotiate a "marriage agreement" that covered a whole range of financial issues/arrangements including pin-money. Prenups are definitely not the invention of modern time:) Mr. Bennet: "Very well Mr. Darcy, I'll have my lawyer call your lawyer tomorrow ..." ... ... - this is one "missing scene" that I'm happy to be spared of though. About special license - there were 3 ways (4 after 1836) to get your marriage formalized - Banns which were usually confined to the poorest classes, licenses, and special licenses. A Special license was the most expensive procedure and enabled you to get married any place at any time. To get a special license you not only had to be which but also well-connectd, since it was grantd by archbishop of Cantebury. Zimei 10 responses total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 1 of 10: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (20:55) * 2 lines I have explanations for these words near the bottom of the file http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/thresist.html By the way, the Pool book is apparently not the most accurate and definitve source... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 2 of 10: Cecily (panache) * Sun, Dec 1, 1996 (09:19) * 2 lines Thank you, Zimei. But do tell also what Jane Austen ate, etc., so we all know what to do in that area (and any other JA tidbits from Pool's book) along with wearing our new hairdos, muslin gowns, handwriting retraining, accent, daily walks to town or gentlemen with letters under trees, etc. Pretty please? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 3 of 10: Leslie (Leslie) * Sun, Dec 1, 1996 (14:47) * 1 lines Thank you Zimei. But I must agree with Cecily. Please tell all... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 4 of 10: Anna (Anna) * Mon, Dec 2, 1996 (02:30) * 1 lines At the risk of seeming negative, "What Jane Austen Ate ..." contains some innacuracies and doesn't seperate JA's time (regency) from Dickens (Victorian), the later had much stricter rules of propriety, in the upper classes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 5 of 10: Zimei Sun (Zimei) * Mon, Dec 2, 1996 (09:12) * 6 lines :But do tell also what Jane Austen ate, et Cecily and Leslie, I'm happy to oblige. I will post something from the Pool book tonight and will try my best to include only the regency food. Zimei ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 6 of 10: Zimei Sun (Zimei) * Wed, Dec 4, 1996 (22:46) * 6 lines I'm afraid I have to put off reporting what's on Jane Austen's dinner table a little longer. The other day I went to get the Pool book renewed only to find out someone put a hold on it. I sould get it back when the next copy comes in a few days. I'm also going to the main library this weekend to get more background books (thanks HC for reminding me not to trust the Pool book blindly). Hmmm, should have minored 19-century English literary history in college :) Again, I apologize for not keeping my word, I hope it will not become a great scandal! Zimei ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 7 of 10: Anna (Anna) * Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (22:01) * 5 lines In the interest of avoiding unnecessary topic proliferation I'm going to post some general stuff on Regency financial stuff here; it seems to fit with the background information trend; as it will not poat as one large message I'm going to try it as a few smaller ones. A discussion I had yesterday with one of the recent additions to out group made me think that it might be worthwhile to repeat some of the information about the finances in the background of P&P. I'm doing this largely from memory, if I make errors of omission or commission would one of those present for the original discussions please correct me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 8 of 10: Anna (Anna) * Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (22:02) * 11 lines part2 At the beginning of P&p we have; Mr Bennet who owns (inherited) Longbourne estate, including the house and pleasure gardens and with farm(s) attached which provide an income of 2,000 pounds pa. This estate is entailed; it will be inherited by Mr Bennet's closest male heir (Mr Collins). If she survives Mr Bennet Mrs Bennet will have 5,000 pounds, the interest of which will bring in 200 pounds pa, and she will not own a house. After Mrs Bennet's death the 5,000 will be divided amongst her daughters, in a proportion to be decided by the arents, so the unmarried Bennet girls will average an income of 40 pounds pa each (jobs available are pretty much limited to governessing or companion - both dire!). Mr Collins is at present holds the 'living' of the church at Hunsford, bestowed on him by Lady Catherine. It would probably bring in 300-400 pounds pa, the house and usually some farm land would also be his free of charge. Lady Catherine cannot take it off him once he has been appointed, but could give him other livings to hold in addition to Hunsford, with the associated extra income. Although he is personally ridiculous, his intention of marrying one of the Bennet sisters sight unseen could be conside ed generous, as it would allow his wife, and by implication her mother and any unmarried sisters, to go on living at Longbourne, at his expense. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 9 of 10: Anna (Anna) * Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (22:02) * 9 lines part3 Mr Bingley owns no land but has 100,000 pounds invested at 5%; 5,000 pa. His sisters each have 20,000 pounds, presumed also in the 5% 'govt bonds'; the Bingley money was made by their father who was a very successful merchant (in trade!) Mr Bingley intends buying an estate (and does so, 30 miles from Pemberly, a year after his marriage). Mr Darcy also owns an inherited estate, including the house and grounds of Pemberly and farms bringing in 10,000 pounds pa. Georgiana has an inheritance of 30,000, probably also in 5% govt bonds. Sir William Lucas was a merchant on a small scale before being knighted, and retired on not much money; his children will inherit very little, but his daughters do have brothers who may be able to support them if they do not marry; the range of jobs available for men was far greater. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 56 of 181 [austen]: pin-money & special license Response 10 of 10: Anna (Anna) * Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (22:03) * 6 lines part 4, final The very different conditions in the regency period make it very difficult to understand just how rich/poor these people were; for example no one had access to what I would regard as acceptable, let alone good, medical care. There are some very interesting comparisons drawn with modern American equivalents by Edward Copeland in his article " the Economic Realities of Jane Austen's Day" which appears in " Approaches to Teaching Austen's Pride and Prejudice" edited by Marcia McClintock Folso . Amongst other comparison he estimates Mrs Bennet's 200 pounds pa would allow the equivalent of a 4th floor walk-up studio-flat with a small stove, a small vacuum cleaner and a shared bathroom down the hall. Again, although Mrs Bennet is very silly, she is right to be concerned about her and her daughters' future; a good marriage for at least one is probably the only way out.

Moved from old topic, Mozart wigs ____ Topic 57 of 181: 'Mozart wigs' Sun, Dec 1, 1996 (21:25) | Rachel Youdelman (baka) Help! my kids are infected with my addiction to P&P2! My son says the servants are wearing 'Mozart wigs'!! from Rachel 11 new of 11 responses total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 1 of 11: Amy Bellinger (Amy) * Mon, Dec 2, 1996 (04:02) * 13 lines Well, that [wigs] is one point on which I think What Jane Austen Ate... is accurate. I don't own the book, but if I remember Pool(e?) was sort of incredulous in his style of explaining the costuming of servants of the rich. He said something like, "For some reason, the wealthy had their servants dress as they themselves might have some 40 years before." In the neighborhood of Meryton, Nethfield and Longbourn, the Bingely household is the only one where we see servants so dressed. And that brings up something I have wondered about. How far away would some other great estates be from Longbourn and would the Bennets have been acquainted with those families. And. If Longbourn had a church, would not Netherfield be a parish too, or would it have been too close? Was the house at Netherfield an old estate or built by an upstart like Bingley himself? I don't think any of these questions are answered in the book, but wondered if there are any hints in the book, or if anyone who knows the period cares to speculate. Oh, sorry. I am on a ramble. Fun to think about the fact that Mozart was nearly comtemporary. I imagine his music was to our Regency friends as Gershwin is to us. Amy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 2 of 11: Anna (Anna) * Mon, Dec 2, 1996 (04:27) * 22 lines "For some reason, the wealthy had their servants dress as they themselves might have some 40 years before." it's still done in some circles - Euro/Brit upper classes on formal occasions mainly How far away would some other great estates be from Longbourn other than Netherfield? Pemberly was 10 mile in diameter, thus ~ 3 miles across (mind you I'm not sure if 'estate' in this context ment all the property or just the pleasure grounds, but I suspect the latter). Most of the land had been enclosed by then so allowing for some waste grounds there should be reasonable sized estates every 10 miles or so. Some at least of the owners would have been on visiting terms with the Bennets. If Longbourn had a church, would not Netherfield be a parish too, or would it have been too close? Was the house at Netherfield an old estate or built by an upstart like Bingley himself? I think if Netherfield was an established 'great house' with an associated village it would have had a church and parish, but not if it was a recent addition to the scene. I don't think we can tell which from the text. Oh, sorry. I am on a ramble. likewise - I was going to finish my tax return tonight. Fun to think about the fact that Mozart was nearly comtemporary. I imagine his music was to our Regency friends as Gershwin is to us. did you see the recent comment (here or on AustenL) that Mozart's music is technically much easier to play on a fortepiano than on a pianoforte? All that amateur playing mightn't have been as bad as I had thought. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 3 of 11: Donna (Donna) * Tue, Dec 3, 1996 (11:17) * 1 lines I thought "fortepiano" and "pianoforte" are the same thing. Did I miss something. Or is one larger then the other.Either one is upright or grand style. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 4 of 11: Anna (Anna) * Tue, Dec 3, 1996 (13:29) * 1 lines the pianoforte in 1812 was differently constructed to the pianoforte we use now (I don't know in what way - I've picked this much up from background reading but I'm no musician), and the earlier version is referred to nowadays as a fortepiano to distinguish it from the modern instrument. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 5 of 11: Ann Rydberg (Ann2) * Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (09:01) * 6 lines I found out that the French composer Couperin wanted something more varied than the cembalo. And one Bartolomeo Cristofori as an answer to this request constructed the pianoforte in 1709. The main difference from what I gather is that tiny hammers strike the strings and this can be done softly/piano or with force/forte (like Mrs Hurst on Netherfield Ball?).It seems they could be in rectangular form sometimes.The other special form comes from the soprano(?) strings being much shorter and thus needing less pace than the base strings. I have only guessed the words for those strings. Hope I make myself clear?! Thanks for explanation on fortepiano and pianoforte! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 6 of 11: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (11:14) * 1 lines Has anyone read the literary criticism comparing Jane Austen's style to Mozart's? It's pretty darned interesting - which I could recall what the source material is! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 7 of 11: Amy Bellinger (Amy) * Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (11:31) * 6 lines ] Has anyone read the literary criticism comparing Jane Austen's style to Mozart's? It's pretty darned interesting - which I could recall what the source material is! ___ I wish you could, too, Amytwo. Tease! Amyloo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 8 of 11: Anna (Anna) * Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (15:20) * 1 lines ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 9 of 11: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (11:28) * 1 lines You know what, Amy1 -- I think it's actually an entire book which I saw in the UCLA Research Library. Next time I'm there, I'll try to refind! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 10 of 11: Anne3 (Anne3) * Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (16:13) * 9 lines Re: Austen & Mozart I know that a number of critics have compared P&P with The Marriage of Figaro, but the best Austen/Mozart comparison I know of is a quote from the critic Louis Kronenberger, who said (referring to criticism of Austen as trivial & decorative, i.e. "feminine" in the pejorative sense): There are those who think Jane Austen tea-tablish, as there are those who think that Mozart tinkles. . . . which is a great line, don't you think? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 57 of 181 [austen]: 'Mozart wigs' Response 11 of 11: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Sun, Dec 15, 1996 (10:52) * 7 lines Re: 57:2 Anna, the Pemberley estate was actually much bigger than the average landed country gentleman's estate... Re: 57:9 Amy2 --The Mozart-Austen book is by Robert K. Wallace; the reference is on-line in the bibliography at my site: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/austfbib.html Re: 57:1 Amy, as for keeping servants in older styles, apparently footmen in the houses of the wealthy had powdered hair up to Dickens' period...

] Topic 181 of 181 [austen]: Understanding Regency society ] Response 2 of 4: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:57) * 1 lines ] I know we've touched on this before, but now that we have an official topic: Can someone here post the Rules of Propriety in terms of the dealings between the sexes during the Regency? ] Covering acceptable touching, letter-writing, _social_ intercourse, etc. Thanks! Amy2 -- here's what I have in the AUSTEN-L "Pre-FAQ" at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/pre-faq.txt --

Here are the links in Topic 44, Message 70 that are omitted from the reposting above: Web-page with illustrations and further links on Regency fashions: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/ppbrokil.html Jane Austen letter with reference to "nakedly dressed": http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/brablet4.html#letter26 Drawing which makes fun of the Classically-inspired styles when they were just coming into fashion (1797): http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/1797fash.gif

Is anybody interested in Regency Dancing? My sci-fi interested son gave me info. on "Costume Con Fifteen" (a convention) to be held in Baltimore May 23-26, 1997 at Lord Baltimore Hotel. The flyer says "Costume Lovers Rejoice! Four Days Devoted to the Art of Costume" There is to be a Regency Dance on the Monday (Memorial Day) from approx. noon to 3 p.m. There is an attendance fee, don't know how much for just part of one day. For more information contact: CCXV c/o Marks 7806 Hanover Pkwy., Unit T-2 Greenbelt, MD 20770-2617 (301) 474-8616 betsy@access.digex.net Also on the flyer, descriptions of Friday and Saturday socials: "Calahan's Cross-Stitch Saloon and Murder on the Ornament Express"

From P&P and S&S, I understand that eloping was quite scandalous. Can anyone explain why it is so bad? (Aside from going against your family's wishes.)

Inko, if you go to an sf convention, you may get more than you bargain for! You will not only find Regency dancers, but people dressed like Wookies, Mr. Spock, the X-Files, etc. Plus the liberal dose of chicks in chainmail & fur bikinis. Be forewarned! Henry -- thanks for posting that info! In your opinion, which Austen adaptation most closely adheres to the strictures of the Regency?

I wonder if Mr Spock can dance?

Anne: I wonder if Mr. Spock can dance? No, but I hear that wookies sure can cut a rug! :)

Oops sorry about that - hit the wrong button :(

Amy2, Since Baltimore is just 45 minutes up the pike (50 miles of good road) it's possible for me to just drop in on the dance; I don't have to hang around for the rest of it. However, I'd rather like to see the Wookie doing Mr. Beveridge's maggot!!;-)

'Other way, Mr. Chewbacca...'

re: 10 Karen, besides going against your family's wishes, an elopement would not have had any pre-marriage settlements drawn up. Without these a wife had very little control over any belongings she brought into the match, it all became the husband's to do with as he wished. Hence the popularity of elopement with fortune hunters.

Ha! I have to confess I'm an sf writer, so I have been to more than my share of these things. And boy, are they weird! The woman wearing the pig nose and the tutu definitely got MY attention!

oh Amy, I love sf - how great for you!

Question: At the end of the novel, Lydia writes a note of congratulation to Lizzy. In this letter Lydia expresses the hope that Lizzy & Darcy will think of the Wickhams, and that she's sure that "Wickham would like a place at court very much." What is a place at court?

I've always taken that sentence "Wickham would like a place at court very much", to mean he'd like to be an equerry or aide to the King or Regent. Court refers to the present ruler and, if we're talking 1812, I guess it would mean the Prince Regent, later George IV. I don't know how Darcy could have managed that; maybe they bought these positions or else Darcy would know people who could put in a good word for Wickham. I also think it shows how far from reality Lydia's and Wickham's ideas were!!

I also thought it was written to show how ungrateful they are. or how determined Wicked Wickham is to bedevil Darcy. (He probably thinks Elizabeth loved him first.)

Anne, thanks for the sf kudos. I'm actually more of a fantasy writer. I guess you could say that P&P is a sort of fantasy. . .of a romantic kind.

Amy2...what are you doing girl? This isn't your usual posting time! ;-)

Re: 18 Thanks for your information, Anna.

Found this graphic, thought people might like it... (The picture doesn't actually date from the Regency itself -- probably actually the 1940's)

thought people might like it... Can�t understand who that might imply! Do we care for such tall, proud one's...? Whatever gave you that impression, Henry ? Are you by any chance prejudiced?

The illustration does nothing for me, actually, Henry. It seems a little swishy.