Romance in P&P

Last week's worth of messages from the old topic: Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 153 of 184: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:15) * 2 lines You all are probably right as far as the book is concerned. But in any of the P&P dramatizations, when anyone even mentions "Mr. Darcy" around Lizzy after Proposal #1, she acts like she's going to burst out of her skin! So I'm going to accord Jane the sensitivity of realizing that something is amiss if her own sister is acting so jumpy! I'm referring particuarly to when Lydia spills the beans about Darcy being the Best Man at her wedding. Listen to the way Ehle says: "Mr. _Darcy_?" And all of her agon zing about losing his good opinion in P&P2. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 154 of 184: Johanne (JohanneD) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (14:59) * 1 lines I'm with you Amy2, Jane must have suspected something, anything, Lizzy was way to obvious. But what strikes me though is that Jane looks like she just doesn't get it, no reactions, no questions, no implied allusions to anything. Only perhaps her slight smile when Lizzy says Darcy was there when she received news of Lydia's elopment. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 155 of 184: Ann (Ann) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (17:49) * 1 lines Also, Jane's reaction when Bingley and Darcy return to Hertfordshire and call on the Bennet's. She has too much of a smile on her face if she still thinks Lizzy doesn't care for Darcy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 156 of 184: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (20:05) * 1 lines Jane was basically incapable of suspicion - and also, at the time of Bingley's return to Netherfield, much too preoccupied with her own feelings and emotions to be particularly observant of anyone else's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 157 of 184: Sharon (sld) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (20:50) * 4 lines [ So I'm going to accord Jane the sensitivity of realizing that something is amiss if her own sister is acting so jumpy!] In the book, what Jane did know was a) Elizabeth turned down the proposal; b) that Elizabeth was uncomfortable about having prejudged Mr. Darcy; and when Darcy was coming to Longbourn with Bingley, that Elizabeth was about to face the guy she turned down. Jane could have attrubuted Elizebeth's nervousness to these things. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 158 of 184: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (10:57) * 1 lines Did Jane know that Lizzy had already bumped into Mr. Darcy at Pemberley? Or was everyone too caught up in the Lydia Fiasco at that point to mention it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 159 of 184: Donna (Donna) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (11:36) * 1 lines Yes, Lizzie told Jane. Jane's reply "Mr. Darcy knows of our troubles"? Lizzie "He happen upon me while I was reading your letter". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 160 of 184: kathleen (elder) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (14:30) * 4 lines But I do not believe that Lizzy said this in the book. Lizzy tells Jane very little of what happened at Pemberley, because she does not want to mention Bingley's name. When Lizzy tells Jane that she & Darcy are engaged, Jane ends their dialogue saying, "But Lizzy, you have been very sly, very reserved with me. How little did you tell me of what passed at Pemberley and Lambton! I owe all that I know of it, to another, not to you." Then Lizzy shares the information about Darcy helping Lydia. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 161 of 184: Sharon (sld) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (19:17) * 4 lines [I owe all that I know of it, to another, not to you.] I always thought this 'other' was Bingley, although it could have been Aunt Gardiner. Before this, Jane had said somthing to the effect of she and Bingley had talked of the possibility of an Elizabeth/Darcy combination, but had decided it not possible. What do you think? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 162 of 184: Inko (Inko) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (19:42) * 1 lines I think Jane meant that she had heard about Lizzie being at Pemberley from Bingley after their engagement. Which would have led them to talk about Darcy and Lizzie, and Jane probably telling Bingley that Lizzie didn't care for Darcy and that it was impossible. She didn't see the Gardiners after her engagement and there was no mention of her writing to them, so I think JA intended us to believe it was Bingley who was this 'other'. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 163 of 184: Karen Bowdre (Karen) * Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (02:47) * 1 lines Yes, I agree that the 'other' is Bingley. In the second part of the novel (after Pemberley), Lizzy has no one to confide in and wrestles with her feelings for Darcy by herself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 164 of 184: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (11:22) * 1 lines I do like the fact that Jane serves as more of a confidante in P&PII than she does in the book. It makes Lizzie's struggles less lonely (and more dramatic). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 165 of 184: Inko (Inko) * Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (16:40) * 1 lines Amy2, it would have been very boring if they hadn't made Jane Lizzie's confidante in P&PII--it would have meant Lizzie sitting by herself and talking to herself. That's where AD did such a good job of translating thoughts into talk. I liked it too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 166 of 184: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (23:10) * 1 lines Absolutely. We got to avoid all voiceovers (a pet peeve of mine). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 167 of 184: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (22:01) * 2 lines Not all voiceovers are a Bad Thing. They can be used very effectively. Some examples that leap to mind: Regina Taylor's in I'll Fly Away - the voice of the adult "Kevin" in The Wonder Years - Claire Danes' and others in My So-Called Life - Scully's in last week's episode of X-files - but they can also easily be overused, and given the percentage of plot in P&P that took place in letters and private thinking, using voice over for these would result in a very static pro uction - and was one of the flaws in the screenplay in P&P1. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 168 of 184: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (22:02) * 2 lines Not all voiceovers are a Bad Thing. They can be used very effectively. Some examples that leap to mind: Regina Taylor's in I'll Fly Away - the voice of the adult "Kevin" in The Wonder Years - Claire Danes' and others in My So-Called Life - Scully's in last week's episode of X-files - but they can also easily be overused, and given the percentage of plot in P&P that took place in letters and private thinking, using voice over for these would result in a very sta ic production - and was one of the flaws in the screenplay in P&P1. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 169 of 184: kathleen (elder) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (22:17) * 1 lines Joan, too -- was the second posting the voiceover? ;=p ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 170 of 184: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (23:37) * 1 lines Yes, and I think it was read by James Earl Jones. I guess I was thinking of that horrific voiceover in BLADE RUNNER when Harrison Ford sounded as thrilled to deliver the lines as we were to hear them. And many bad & terrible sf films make use of this device; to wit, DUNE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 171 of 184: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (05:08) * 3 lines was the second posting the voiceover? ;=p hee hee hee - must have been... I cannot account for it otherwise. The Ghost Poster strikes again. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 172 of 184: Karen Bowdre (Karen) * Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (15:33) * 1 lines To those who love romance, help me. As I watch P&P2 for the umpteenth time, I am desparately searching for the romance in the dance between Lizzy and Darcy at Netherfield. When he asks her to dance, he seems anxious and even slightly pleasant. However, during the dance he is so severe! He only smiles ever so slightly when he asks Lizzy about walking to Meryton with her sisters. Most of his other responses are extremely sarcastic. For some reason in these scenes at Netherfield, he frightens me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 173 of 184: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (16:06) * 1 lines He makes me want to hit him over the head with a bat. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 174 of 184: kathleen (elder) * Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (17:20) * 8 lines I was vexed with this scene as well, Karen and Kali. I wish they had included more of the novel here: " she made some slight observationon the dance. He replied, and was again silent. After a pause . . she addressed him a second time with 'It is your turn to say something now . . .' He smiled, and assured her that whatever she wished him to say should be said." Also, in the novel they have more of a conversation after Sir William interrupts them, including Darcy trying to make small talk (about books!). So he wasn't a complete stick/jerk at this point in the book. Ahh, well, I shall reread the book with visions of Darcy/Firth in my head. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 175 of 184: Kate (kate) * Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (18:55) * 1 lines But do you realise that this is first time they actually touch in P&P2? I mean admitedly she's wearing gloves, but they do get to hold hands... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 176 of 184: Sharon (sld) * Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (20:26) * 8 lines [ but they do get to hold hands...] And after the dance, they hold hands as he escorts her to the side of the room - ooohhhh, aaaaahh! I think Davies probable means for us to see Darcys' manner two different ways at two different times. One way initially, when he asks her and they dance, and then in a new light much later, after we know he ardently admires and loves her. When we look back on it, we can then attribute his manner to being REALLY, REALLY nervous about approaching her (thus he does so hurriedly and stiffly - with his heart probably in his throat); and during the dance he just doesn't know HOW to begin a conversatio , and is a little afraid to (but all the while he is probable wracking his brains for something meaningful to say). When I look back on it, I really feel for the guy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 177 of 184: Ann (Ann) * Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (22:41) * 1 lines He also is torn between very much wanting to dance with her, and not wanting to. He is falling in love, but he doesn't want to be. That tension is acute during the dance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 178 of 184: Susan Christie (Susan) * Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (00:18) * 3 lines He also is torn between very much wanting to dance with her, and not wanting to. He is falling in love, but he doesn't want to be. That tension is acute during the dance. Ann, I think your definition is closer to my feeling. Darcy can't stand to not be with her, but he is also very ambivalent about his feelings for her. I thought this scene showed that very well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 179 of 184: Anne3 (Anne3) * Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (00:21) * 8 lines Karen: As I watch P&P2 for the umpteenth time, I am desparately searching for the romance in the dance between Lizzy and Darcy at Netherfield. I don't see much romance here either, but I do shudder deliciously at the erotic suggestion in this very formal dance. L & D are still battling it out, as they had earlier during Lizzy's stay at Netherfield, but their sparring is now shown in physical terms, and the sparks flying between this gorgeous, strong-willed man and woman make the dance sexier than any waltz would have been. Even though their relationship doesn't "progress" in this scene, I love the contrast between the way they join hands at th beginning and at the end: when they start, their gloved hands reach the camera at the same moment, and you think of drawn swords. At the end, Darcy extends his hand to Lizzy in such a gentle way, and she accepts it so quietly, that you know that there is going to be more of this in the future. As Sharon says, "ooohhhh, aaaaahh!" When he asks her to dance, he seems anxious and even slightly pleasant. However, during the dance he is so severe! I think we've discussed this before, but this is mostly Lizzy's fault. Even Davies's truncated dialog has Lizzy being deliberately pert and provoking. Poor Darcy didn't stand a chance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 180 of 184: Karen Bowdre (Karen) * Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (20:10) * 5 lines Anne3 - "I think we've discussed this before, but this is mostly Lizzy's fault. Even Davies's truncated dialog has Lizzy being deliberately pert and provoking. Poor Darcy didn't stand a chance." I know she is provoking him but he is not amused. Even at Netherfield (before the ball), he would occassionally smile after he'd make a harsh remark. At the ball, he keeps rolling his eyes at everything she says. I have to agree with Kali's comment (about hitting him) and Kathleen's comment (following the novel more closely and have him nicer). If he were a bit nicer at times (flashing the camera a devilish, little grin and then go back to trying to be composed), I could have felt that he was tornup a out his feelings. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 181 of 184: Sharon (sld) * Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (21:26) * 1 lines Rolling his eyes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 182 of 184: Amy (Amy) * Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (10:59) * 7 lines ] He only smiles ever so slightly when he asks Lizzy about walking to Meryton with her sisters. __ I know this whole "On foot?" thing was not in the book. But it does fit Darcy. When Firth gives that little smile of amusement, I am torn between hating Darcy for ridiculing Lizzy, and somehow finding the amusement strangely exciting. Why should this be so? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 183 of 184: Anne3 (Anne3) * Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (12:20) * 4 lines Karen: I know she is provoking him but he is not amused. Even at Netherfield (before the ball), he would occassionally smile after he'd make a harsh remark. Expecting Darcy to be amused assumes that he should find Lizzy's raillery to be cute rather than annoying. In the book, everything is told through Lizzy's consciousness, so we find her remarks as adorable as she finds them herself. Remember, though, that she later learns how wrong she was, how unfair to Darcy and indulgent to herself. She says, "I meant to be uncommonly clever in taking so decided a dislike to him, without any reason. It is such a spur to one's genius, such an opening for wit to have dislike of that kind." If Darcy hadn't been so infatuated with her, he would have been quite justified in being annoyed at her constant verbal jabs. Darcy's smiles, in the book, were I think Austen's way of showing us his feelings, since she doesn't make us privy to them in any other way. In the film, Davies chose to show Darcy's feelings in other ways. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 184 of 184: Candace (candace) * Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (13:12) * 1 lines Regarding Mr. Darcy's smiles: In the book...when Lizzie is at Pemberly and sees Mr. Darcy's portrait, "and she beheld a striking resemblance of Mr. Darcy, with such a smile over the face, as she remembered to have sometimes seen when he looked at her."

Sharon "Rolling his eyes?" Yes, Darcy often rolls his eyes in contempt of others; sometimes they are actually quite funny. My two favorite are when Mrs. Bennet is blathering on about Lydia's marriage (he's standing at the window, Bingley seated) and when Lady C. interrupts his flirting with Lizzy at Rosings. He also rolls his eyes at the Netherfield Ball when dancing with Lizzy. After she makes the comment about "we are each of an unsocial, taciturn disposition, unwilling to speak, unlesswe expect to say something that will amaz the whole room," he comments, this is no very striking resemblance to your own character, I'm sure" and rolls his eyes. I have to go back to find the second one but the third one is when they are parting (after the dance). Lizzy says she is trying to determine his character and if she doesn't do it now, she wouldn't have another opportunity to do so. He responses (as Amy's photo shows),"I would by no means suspend any pleasure of yours" and rolls his eyes again. Anne3 "Expecting Darcy to be amused assumes that he should find Lizzy's raillery to be cute rather than annoying" I'm expecting him to be torn about his feelings as he was at Netherfield when Jane and Lizzy finally left. In responding to Caroline Bingley, he said he was happy not to have Lizzy's pert opinions and fine eyes not about but his standing at the window and the look on his face betrayed him. Anne3, you and I may never agree on how this was directed. I just wanted to see him being more pleasant. He looked away from her as she came in and was overall really cold throughout the scene. Whereas in other sce es, Netherfield and Rosings, you could watch him move toward her and then away. At the ball, he, IMHO, never really warms up to her.

I guess I am repeating what my sisters before have eloquently stated already: I really do not see "romance" in the Netherfield ball scene but rather the tension and uneasiness that both Darcy and Lizzy feel for each other. Lizzie is so caught up with Wickham's plight that she just cannot wait to throw this in Darcy's face. It was a big step for Darcy to approach, much less ask, Lizzie to dance with him. He is so ill at ease with Lizzie, the woman who he has fallen in love with and is fighting that feeling, that he tries his hardest not to convey these feelings. Instead, he perfects the dance steps (as does Lizzie) and shows that he is rather indifferent/unemotional (in the loving way) toward Lizzie. If he did not already fancy her, I believe he would not have sparred with Lizzie as he did during the dance. At least I felt this way, even with the first viewing, without having read the book. There is such incredible tension in that scene, dare I say sexual tension? After all, it is the first time that Darcy and Lizzie touch and are in such close proximity to each other. CF did a wonderful job of conveying all sorts of feelings throughout... I just love him rolling his eyes when his aunt wants to have her "share" of the conversation. It makes him seem somehow less "proud" and "stiff" and instead rather a bit more "humane"...

Whoops! "the woman *with whom* he has fallen in love, and lusts after, and is now trying to fight those feelings..."

The Netherfield dance scene is really only metaphor for a kind of battlefield. In the war between the sexes, Darcy and Miss Bennett are going through trial by combat. Darcy does not love Eliz. at this point, notwithstanding this business about her fine eyes, his asking Miss Bennet to dance with him, when he knows that she cannot really refuse him is an act of aggresession. He will dance with her, no matter how much he dislikes it, or she dislikes him. More for his own purposes than anything else. H s attraction to Eliz. is simply that of a wealthy, self-centered aristocrat, used to having his way with a lot of women, finally meeting up with someone who acts differently towards him. This is what whets his interest. ANd like most men, he wants to control this woamn, and the relationship, if any. On her part Eliz. Bennett is determined to needle him, to get back at him for putting her through what amounts to an unwanted dance by both parties! Eliz. Bennett is fully determined not to become simply another one of Darcy's conquests. She will not be controlled. Never mind his money and great estates. She, like most women did not want to be forced into this kind of intimacy with Darcy in public. She did want to dance, but being almost forced to, will try to learn something about him. At this point she is merely curious. She has no feelings of love for him yet.

]... his asking Miss Bennet to dance with him, when he knows that she cannot really refuse him is an act of aggresession.... Carl, the dance scene is my favorite scene from the movie, but I had never considered it in this way. While I knew that Elizabeth could not refuse him because of social strictures, I had not thought about the flip side of the coin---that Darcy would take advantage of this bit of manners and compell Elizabeth to dance with him. Hmmmm.... I'm not certain I agree, for I do not like to think that any one would thus trap a person (let alone that prince of men, Darcy!) but your assertations do have a r ng of truth about them. ] He will dance with her, no matter how much he dislikes it., or she dislikes him. However, I can agree with this statement. We know, from the author's own information, that he is already attracted to her by this point. I always had the impression that he seems so stern and disapproving during the dance because he has stooped to do something (against his own better judgment) because of the attraction he feels for Elizabeth. But during the dance he does try to win her approval, but she rebuffs his attempts at small talk, even though she challenged him to talk. He is so clearly trying and she is so clearly already determined to be prejudiced against him. In a not short fashion, I am trying to say that I agree with the truth of your statement, but not with all of your assertations. I guess that my attraction to Darcy will not let me see him in such a cold-hearted role.:-)

I think you are forgetting that Lizzie avoided dancing with Darcy at the Lucas's. She also said she hoped to never dance with Darcy. She gets angry at herself for accepting. Didn't she wriggle her way out of the social implications at the Lucas's? I think a woman was able to refuse without looking bad. Remember, these people rarely used the word "why?".

] a woman was able to refuse without looking bad. if she refused one man it was supposed to be because she didn't want to dance at all that evening, and she was then not supposed to dance with anyone else...

' ANd like most men, he wants to control this woamn, and the relationship, if any.' Oh. I always feel like the odd one out when people discuss this scene. I do think it is tense and battle-like, particularly in the film. But I think it is Lizzie who is determined to make things difficult, who is uncompromising, can't resist doing anything to nettle him. I think she is flustered and not thinking straight, shooting off in all directions. In the book particularly, Darcy is surprisingly gallant, tries to find common ground numerous times, and despite being rattled eventually, is prepared to forg ve her afterwards.

' ANd like most men, he wants to control this woamn, and the relationship, if any.' Oh. I always feel like the odd one out when people discuss this scene. I do think it is tense and battle-like, particularly in the film. But I think it is Lizzie who is determined to make things difficult, who is uncompromising, can't resist doing anything to nettle him. I think she is flustered and not thinking straight, shooting off in all directions. In the book particularly, Darcy is surprisingly gallant, tries to find common ground numerous times, and despite being rattled eventually, is prepared to forg ve her afterwards.

That 'on foot' smile, Amy. I don't know why either, but I find it somewhat exciting too. Is it because he recognises even here that she doesn't 'perform to strangers' and is pleased despite knowing he should disapprove? Or maybe its an appreciation of the connection between physical/mental/sexual energy?

That 'on foot' smile, Amy. I don't know why either, but I find it somewhat exciting too. Is it because he recognises even here that she doesn't 'perform to strangers' and is pleased despite knowing he should disapprove? Or maybe its an appreciation of the connection between physical/mental/sexual energy? ___ Better ideas than I had about it, Hil. I like your explanation than the idea of liking that he is making fun of her.

[I always feel like the odd one out when people discuss this scene. I do think it is tense and battle-like, particularly in the film. But I think it is Lizzie who is determined to make things difficult.... Darcy is surprisingly gallant, tries to find common ground numerous times, and despite being rattled ventually, is prepared to forgive her afterwards.] Then that makes two of us, Hil. First of all, Darcy didn't take it lightly, asking her to dance. He hates it in general. But he wanted to do it with her, maybe even just as a way to be with her since it is difficult to talk to her. If you recall that at Lucas Lodge, he kinda of just followed Lizzy around, 'as a step' towards talking to her himself. That he asked her to dance and went quickly away, I take as consistent with him being uncomfortable. In the book we know that everyone in the room s looking at them with amazement when they take the dance floor, so it would be consistent with his discomfort for him to go through the steps of the dance stiffly in the film. He wasn't annoyed with her at the first part of the dance, and when she indicates that it is his turn to speak, 'He smiled, and assured her that whatever she wished hem to say should be said'. This indicates to me that he is attempting to match her banter. It is in this tone that "It is no stiking resemblance to your character, I amd sure. How near it may be tjo mine I cannot pretend to say. You think it a faithful portrait undoubtedly" comes out. (In the film, I do not see him rollin his eyes at her. He is speaking and looking ahead and then he turns in the dance.) I think here he is loosely alluding to their prior conversation when she accuses him of hating everybody and he says she misjudges them. I don't think that he is annoyed with her until toward the end of the dance. He makes and effort and tries to talk with her about books (after all the ragging she did on him about conversing during the dance), but then she rebuffs that and starts grilling him about his resentment. And regarding Darcy's being like most men, 'and like most men, he wants to control this woman, and the relationship'..... In his mind, who knows? But in practice, he just don't have the balls.

Then that makes three of us, Hil and Sharon :)

Four. I think it is clear that by this point in the book Darcy is somewhat in love with her, or at least is strongly attracted to her, but he does not want to be. He resents her for attracting him, and for what she makes him feel. He is constantly torn between wanting to be near her, and wanting to have her out of his sight entirely. That is why the dance is such a perfect metaphor. During the dance the movements at times bring them close together and at others push them apart. It is exactly what is goi g on in Darcy's mind--he is being pulled towards her while he is trying to push away.

Don't forget the "fine eyes" comment that he makes BEFORE the Netherfield Ball....at Lucas Lodge...it is one of the first indications that his feelings are changing and that he begins to notice Lizzy. I think by the time the ball comes along...his feelings have begun to grow...her stay at Netherfield when she began to challenge him as he had never been challenged before, by standing up to him. When he asks her to dance...she has become very interesting to him, indeed....he is very attracted to her, eve though he may not want to admit it even to himself! Count me as #5

When Lizzy left Netherfield with Jane, Darcy might have said he was glad to see her then leave but deep inside he was hooked, his mind he wanted to control but his heart belong to her.

Oh, I'm glad I have company! But I'm worried by this: 'And regarding Darcy's being like most men, 'and like most men, he wants to control this woman, and the relationship'..... In his mind, who knows? But in practice, he just don't have the balls.' Does this imply that a 'real' man, one worth anything, will want to control a woman and relationship, like Carl said? What about a desire for equality? If a man desires that in a relationship, is he to be regarded as less of a man? I won't buy into that. Isn't it just perpetuating what we don't want? If male control, and female choice of this control, has a long genetic history, which I think is likely, wanting and working for equality in relationships requires heaps more balls than the 'Me Tarzan, you Ja e' approach.

Right on Hil, society told me for a long time that was the way but guess I wised up and listened to what I wanted. Found a man who was also looking for equality and that's what I call a man, one who needs not to control and dominate to feel good about himself :)

{Does this imply that a 'real' man, one worth anything, will want to control a woman and relationship, like Carl said?} No, Carl said that 'like all men Darcy wants to control a woman'. There is nothing in Darcy's actions to indicate that he takes this attitude, although we can't ever really know what someone is thinking. But we do know by his actions that he is not agressive, so having such a belief (if he did) would not go very far in practice. (Our Lizzy would quash that like a bug) By his actions though, I think we can rest assured that Darcy does find an equal relationship appealing. And there probably are some people out there that ,I. would view Darcy 'less of a man' (in those times particularly) for allowing a woman equality and respect. But at the end of the day, Darcy shows he could not care less what those other think.

Sharon, I agree with you. I cannot take Carl's view of Darcy being a control freak; it's such a blasphemous thought. If he wanted to control his spouse, he would have married some litte mouse (something a lesser man would have done). Personally, I think the reason why some many of us love Darcy's character is because he wants Elizabeth because of her mind. He could have chosen any woman in England and he chose Lizzy. He knew going into the relationship that Lizzy was not the type of woman to be manipulated and IMHO that is one of many reasons why he chose Lizzy.

Ladies, ladies, another aspect of this discussion needs to be pointed out also: Darcy's creator was Jane Austen, not John or Joe Austen. As a woman and a novelist, ergo, one might deduce her bent as being what a woman's idea(l) of a (gentle)man would be, rather than a man's. Moreover, her satiric spinster's mind (and I do not use the word spinster derogatorily, but as a woman of free spiritednes) would seem to corroborate our female views of the matter, rather than Carl's (though Dieu sait that Carl's take on a male novelist's created idea(l) woman would doubtless be more accurate than mine!) I rest my case.

I thought Elizabeth was a tad bitter but I attributed it to the lingering effect of his slight, the intelligence she had recently acquired re: his "character" and her desire (in vain) to dance with Wickham. Remember, she had planned on being his partner. Regardless, the scene was a precursor to the fencing sceen in 4 or 5 (I forget).

While I do think Lizzy was a bit unpleasant to Darcy at the Netherfield Ball, I am able to forgive her (much as Darcy did). She went to the ball with great hopes of a lovely romantic evening with Mr. Wickham - had prepared her appearance carefully in anticipation, etc. And what a night! First, Wickham is not there - Darcy's fault to her way of thinking. Second, she has to dance with Mr. Collins - and sees Darcy notice her embarassing partner's lack of grace. By the time Darcy asks her to dance she's n a foul mood with him, indeed. (Besides, he comes up to ask while she's in the midst of a recital of his "evil" toward Wickham. Ever notice the appalling timing of all of Darcy's approaches to her as immediately following her having ill thoughts of him fresh in mind?) Then she feels self-conscious as people pay attention to the fact that they are dancing together and gets worried about what those people see, so starts conversation. In the book it says that at the end of their dance "in Darcy's breast there was a tolerable powerful feeling towards her, which soon procured her pardon, and directed all his anger against another." In P&P2 I see much physical/sexual tension between D&E. Both are attracted to the other against their wishes - indeed, against their better judgement!