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After An Understanding

Topic 192 · 63 responses · archived october 2000

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~Ann Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (23:24) seed

The following was posted to the Austen-L recently. From: Williams Debbie Subject: Re: film Mr Darcys Shayda Hoover wrote: The only complaint I have against him (which I have long been waiting an opportunity to express ;) ) is that he becomes far too stiff again in the reconciliation scene with Elizabeth. The novel says something to the effect of Darcy expressing himself as strongly as "a man violently in love" could be expected to do, but Firth is very restrained. The end of the A&E Pride and Prejudice showed him more like his early self than his later, open one. Did it seem like this to other viewers? I'm with you on this one, Shayda. At least in the earlier BBC P&P (P&P1), Darcy at that point took Elizabeth's arm as they walked along and acted relieved and happy. In P&P2 D & E carried on walking as though they'd agreed on which road to take or something, and seemed just as alienated from one another as before. The body language between them was terrible, not all indicative of a rapprochement, right up to the end and the clumsy kiss (I thought) in the wedding carriage. Except for the comment about the final kiss, which I believe everyone here will agree was very nice, do you people agree with these observations? I tend to think that Firth got the emotions quite right. I think that both Darcy and Elizabeth would be beyond words for at least a few moments. I do have one complaint about this scene, which is that his talking about his aunt seemed abrupt and out of place. In the book Darcy "expressed himself on the occasion as sensibly and as warmly as a man violently in love can be supposed to do." This was left out of the scene and they jumped right to his comments about his aunt. I would have liked it if Davies had at least written some of this dialogue, or at the very least allowed them to walk on in silence for a few more moments. What do you think? 63 new of

~Ann2 Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (10:04) #1

I wonder if maybe they did cut some scenes here? If that violently in love warmth did not come out right, and it was to late to retake ? I am among those few(?), who would gladly trade that kiss in the carriage for moments of the long controlled love slowly finding its way, swift touches, devoted glances and a tender first kiss placed on wrist or palm. It is so unfair, when you consider what Gwyneth & Jeremy or Kate & Mark were allowed! (Makes me feel like I want to go to Brighton!!!)

~Quarky Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:24) #2

I too felt that CF was much too retrained. Good grief, the young lady that has been consuming his passion for months has just accepted him, and he can't gather enought enthusiasm to crack a smile. Other than that, I thought CF's performance to be definitive. As for the clumsy kiss - perhaps they should be excused as it appears they did not take the trouble of practicing.

~Quarky Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:26) #3

I too felt that CF was much too restrained. Good grief, the young lady that has been his consuming passion for so many months has just accepted him, and he can't gather enough enthusiasm to crack a smile. Other than that, I thought CF's performance to be definitive. As for the clumsy kiss - perhaps they should be excused as it appears they did not take the trouble of practicing.

~Quarky Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:27) #4

DTBT - please forgive the double post - my mail server hiccupped and I was unaware that the first attempt went through.

~Susan Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:09) #5

Bill, you have a marvelously funny way with words. Am enjoying your posts very much.

~Amy Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:13) #6

Bill, I guess what you and some of the Austen-L ladies see as "restrained," most of us find to be fine subtle acting. I think he has a remarkable ability to raise his eyebrows a quarter of an inch, or just barely begin to roll his eyes -- and convey exactly what must be going on in his head. Me? I saw his relief and pleasure when Lizzy indicated she returned his feelings. I love the little looks. They are what keep the production, romantic as it is, from being, is there such a word? Meloromantic?

~Quarky Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:49) #7

Very subtle indeed - but to my ears his subsequent conversation seemed a but rushed and contained all the warmth of a recipie recitation. Maybe he was so giddy with relief he was not the warm new Darcy of Permberley. Maybe he should have jumped in a nearby lake first before continuiing the conversation!

~Inko Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:54) #8

is there such a word? Meloromantic? If there isn't, Amy, there should be! I too thought his eyes and face expressed what Darcy was feeling--relief, happiness beyond words--and even JA says that Lizzie couldn't see his face while he was telling her what she meant to him which must have meant they kept on walking. On the other hand, I would also have liked the scene to be longer with more of the actual dialogue, plus the second walk, plus the day when Lizzie regained her lively spirit, plus everything that was left out! But we've been through all that before!!;-)

~Ann Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:43) #9

"Good grief, the young lady that has been consuming his passion for months has just accepted him, and he can't gather enought enthusiasm to crack a smile." But his eyes!! They were absolutely sparkling! I think it is also useful to remember that they were not really alone, either in the production or in the book. In the book, Bingley and Jane were behind them--and therefore possibly watching the whole thing. (Interestingly, in one of the pics in "Making Of" they are also behind Lizzy and Darcy, but in the final cut, they are in front.) In the production, they had just passed a farm hand and Jane and Bingley were not that far ahead.

~Quarky Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:55) #10

Yes, Ann, the eyes have it; but at such a moment why should Darcy be concerned about keeping a secret from his best friend Bingley? In the book Darcy told him as much (Lizzy could tell by the manner of his greeting that he had received the information - before the parents knew of it); and Lizzy told Jane that very night! What exactly would have been so extraordinary about his smiling with Lizzy? I agree that this second proposal scene was an abridgement too far - especially since so many hours of screen time were devoted to getting eveyone to this point.

~Ann Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:58) #11

A major part of Darcy's character is that he is a stickler for social propriety. This doesn't change with his reformation. He is still reserved, and by his nature, he probably always will be. Elizabeth might open him up a little, but once an INTJ, always an INTJ.

~Inko Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:58) #12

Bill - I like your way with words! An abridgement too far indeed!!

~Quarky Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (21:17) #13

"once an INTJ, always an INTJ" Gawd, you mean I too am permanently afflicted with this condition! Oh well, it is indeed a great comfort to know that I resemble Darcy in one itty bitty way.

~Meggin Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (22:31) #14

In the book Darcy told him as much (Lizzy could tell by the manner of his greeting that he had received the information - before the parents knew of it) Bingley greeted Lizzie with warmth betraying his knowledge the day after the engagement. He next asked Mrs. Bennet "...have you no more lanes hereabouts in which Lizzy may lose her way again today?"

~Carolineevans Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (10:00) #15

Ann2, I agree, I agree!(sorry it took so long for me to get into this topic!)

~JohanneD Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:34) #16

]I am among those few(?), who would gladly trade that kiss in the carriage for moments of the long controlled love slowly finding its way, swift touches, devoted glances and a tender first kiss placed on wrist or palm yes, we miss those. And it should have been included too, Bingley definitively knew about D's intent, and D's attitude in the 2nd proposal rather lukewarm not to say half-hearthed. Quite a change from his reformed-self, or at least far from the enthusiasticly-warm-and-cordial-caring-person we saw earlier ]in one of the pics in "Making Of" they are also behind Lizzy and Darcy An in-between-takes shot surely, while returning to refilm it again perhaps? They look like having a good time, not at all in context with the scene they portrayed

~Donna Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (16:40) #17

I'm with you on this one, Shayda. At least in the earlier BBC P&P (P&P1), Darcy at that point took Elizabeth's arm as they walked along and acted relieved and happy. In P&P1 Darcy change for as stiff as he was it was totally out of character for me. I thought it was strange for him to change that much. Also,(in the Davis) at the very end of their walk he did say "Dearest lovelest Elizabeth" he looked right at her and she was embarrassed. The end of the A&E Pride and Prejudice showed him more like his early self than his later, open one. Did it seem like this to other viewers? As for Davis version he was compatible to how Darcy felt at the time {not to sure of Lizzie ),( You are to generous to trifle with me,but one word from you will silence me on the subject "for ever" *sigh*) he showed Elizabeth as being very serious as Darcy. They both wanted to express theirs feelings for every nasty things they said to each other. Later that evening JA writes that Darcy is not of the dispostion in which happiness over-flows in mirth:rather knew she was happy;than felt herself to be so; fo , besides the "immediate embarassment" The actions/word Embarassement is used by JA through all of these scenes. That is what Davis was trying to portray. And it was not until the second walk( in the book) that Bingley knew of their engagement. more like his early self than his later, open one.

~Donna Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (16:44) #18

]more like his early self than his later, open one. This line at the bottom should not be there.

~lasalle Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (11:30) #19

Isn't the restrained nature of the lovers relationship, the very essense of a Jane Austen love story? The lover's uncertainties of feeling, the strictures of society,the opinions of others. The unequal status of the sexes during the period. D&B got it right. The later proposal and the kiss were done just right, seems to me. JE and CF got it right too.

~Mari Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:05) #20

I'm with Bill on this one. The brevity of this scene has always bothered me, particularly the omission of their discussion of the letter, what he felt writing it, what she felt upon receiving it, how they both changed their prejudices after the entire incident; to me this is the climax of the story! Colin did very well with what he was given, but it was a very paltry opportunity compared to what could have been covered in terms of actual dialogue to act upon.

~Ann Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (13:48) #21

"particularly the omission of their discussion of the letter, what he felt writing it, what she felt upon receiving it, how they both changed their prejudices after the entire incident; to me this is the climax of the story!" This was particularly needed, since they did such a poor job of showing Lizzy's change of heart. From the production alone, one could fairly conclude that she changed her mind because of Pemberley and not Darcy. It would have been great if they had included this.

~Carolineevans Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:03) #22

A while back we considered the possibilty of kidnapping CF and JE and making them do the missing scenes.There was something about holding Livia hostage!Maybe someone here would like to write the screenplay?

~Amy Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:08) #23

Yes, Caroline. That should be the launch event of our new nation, conceived in drooling. The Republic of Pemberley can capture the attention of the universe with this harmless act of terrorism.

~amy2 Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:57) #24

ANy volunteers to kidnap CF?

~Tracey Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (11:27) #25

I imagine we shall have a veritable brigade of kidnappers!

~bernhard Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (22:31) #26

Okay, everybody, after watching and rewatching a bizillion times, I swear that Darcy leans down and kisses her right after the "dearest, loveliest Elizabeth"! I have not been able to forgive whoever decided to cut it! (I know, I know, Cheryl, we've argued this before. However, I remain unconvinced!)

~JohanneD Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (01:57) #27

Cindy wish I could get a hold of your copy, because in mine he does lean a bit but does'nt come close to touching her

~Ann2 Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (07:14) #28

Is there not one among our true proficients, able to do a little magic with Paintbrush or Coral draw, scanning some scenes from P&P2 and just make it happen?? It ought to be a challenge ! HC, Joan too, Amy, Ian, who else? Surely it can't be regarded a bigger crime, than putting a moustache on the Mona-Lisa.Not that I know the penalty for that... And your reward would be the love of the masses (in Rep of Pemberley anyway)

~Amy Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (08:27) #29

Do we have a picture that is quite close? Or would it have to be snappied in?

~amy2 Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (11:22) #30

I work in a place that could turn Colin Firth into Laurence Olivier, but I don't know if I could find a Henry operator to aid me in this dastardly deed!

~bernhard Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (21:27) #31

Sorry, Johanne, but I'm sure that there's nothing magical about my copy. Cheryl has suggested that I'm seeing things because I want to see things. Hmph! It just looks too much like his downward motion had but one ultimate target. I can't imagine "Cut!" being yelled - too cruel

~Cheryl Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:13) #32

Oh cindy, get over it, move on with your life! ;-)

~bernhard Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:18) #33

oh, admit it, Cheryl, there can be but one target

~Ann2 Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (01:15) #34

Maybe it's a case of the famous 'Knightley second thought'? When he (in some adaptions) is on the brink of kissing Emma's hand after her Bates-remorse-visit and then get's control back and just looks at it with devotion.?? Maybe Darcy was afraid to let go, not knowing where a kiss might take him... Mmmm ladies? It would not be all that impossible then Amy? You could chop their heads from the wedding carriage and paste them on the second proposal bodies!! This blasphemous suggestion is to help me sober down and get on with todays work. A Book Fair being held in my town today. See you.

~Megan Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (02:39) #35

Of all the episodes, my least favourite is the last episode, only because the last scenes seem to be cut too short. I think, because it is cut short there is not enough time to show the transition in Darcy's behaviour from the first visit to Longbourn to the wedding itself. In the book, when Darcy comes to Longbourn with Bingley he is described to look silent,grave and indifferent, more like in Hertfordshire than when Lizzy had seen him at Pemberly. CF looks exactly as described here I think. But because the next scene they are together is the second proposal scene, it would have looked strange if he looked too happy and unrestricted when she accepts it. I don't think he kisses her in that scene Cindy, but just gives the impression that he very much would like to. That is far more erotic to me than if he had actually kissed her there. Just adds up to the sexual tension and anticipation. My objection is to the next shot after that though, when they are walking side by side looking straight ahead and not touching each other. It would have been better if she took his arm or if they were looking at each other. The warmth of the moment seemed to disappear for e when I saw them walking not even looking at each other. Megan

~amy2 Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (11:22) #36

Right on, Megan! Davies gave us that hot kiss in EMMA 3; couldn't he have obliged us with CF & JE? Teazing, teazing man!

~JohanneD Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (12:05) #37

Guess Davies probably took notice of our disapointment in P&P's 2nd proposal' scene and tried to redeemed himself with the kiss in Emma :)

~elder Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (13:52) #38

Johanne -- I bet you are correct about that. In the preface to The Making of Emma, Sue Birtwistle & Susie Conklin mention that they received thousands of letters about P&P2. I am certain many of them would include a comment about the lack of a kiss or touch following the second proposal. [We think we nitpick P&P2. One horticulturalist's letter commented on a variety of rosebush in the movie that wasn't introduced in England until 1830!]

~bernhard Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (17:50) #39

okay, okay, okay, I'm starting to give (perhaps a very little) just because they meant to leave us wanting more, doesn't mean I have to like it! (and it doesn't mean he didn't actually kiss her. I think you hit it, Megan, that the contrast is simply too great between his leaning down (to kiss her!) and the platonic walk down the lane. I'll drop it so long as Cheryl doesn't say "told you so"

~Donna Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:34) #40

Cindy,I'll just say that it looked very much to me that he really wanted to kiss her. Another fact is that in S&S nobody was kissed at all.Edward didn't kiss Elinor, and Col Brandon didn't kiss Marianne. Did anyone notice that? The first kiss I saw (after P&P2) was in Persuasion and was very surprised at that.

~elder Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:44) #41

As Emma Thompson said in her diaries from S&S, "Can't rely on Austen for a snog, that's for sure." Her screenplay had Elinor & Edward kiss, and her diaries indicate that this scene was actually filmed. But it didn't make it to the final cut.

~Cheryl Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (00:43) #42

Cindy: I'll drop it so long as Cheryl doesn't say "told you so" Cindy dear, I should not dream of it. I am much too well-bred.

~bernhard Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (02:01) #43

Cheryl, you are not a ratbag. (I don't care what anybody says!)

~amy2 Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:56) #44

Cheryl, can't you come out to L.A. tomorrow to join Anna P., Joan, & I? It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity!!

~Cheryl Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (23:03) #45

I'd love to, had hoped to when Anna and I first talked about this months ago, but this is Palm Sunday coming up and I have a ton of rehearsals for my choir's Easter Cantata in my church...have fun and give us a full report!

~Serena Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (05:19) #46

Donna, perhaps in S&S, there was a serious lack of chemistry between the pairs, excepting Marianne and Willoughby. Marianne had 'settled' for Col. Brandon and Col. Brandon knew he was being settle for; Edward was engaged to Lucy and one can only imagine that he was 'in-love' with Lucy at some point of that engagement and then to have him 'saved' from it by her running off with his brother. He then has licence to turn to Elinor, with an open heart, but I find it difficult to see attraction between the pa r since she is all restrain and he is all duty.

~Hilary Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:23) #47

Has any one got pictures of that moment when Darcy leans over, and the kiss in the carriage?

~candace Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:16) #48

This one?

~Inko Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:54) #49

Well done, Candace! Where did you get this shot from?

~Donna Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (09:32) #50

Serana- Re:Lacking Chemistry-do you mean has actors or fictional characters?

~Yeago Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (12:06) #51

Is that a makeup line at his jaw? I always wondered about it. Thanks

~JohanneD Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (12:31) #52

Well, he has his eyes closed :)

~candace Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (21:37) #53

"Well done, Candace! Where did you get this shot from?" I don't remember...either someone posted it on the spring somewhere or at Pemberley.

~Hilary Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (23:07) #54

Yes, thanks Candace. Now, does anyone have the 'dearest, loveliest' leaning over moment?

~Amy Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (23:51) #55

Hil, what did Lori call that? The lip dip?

~Serena Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:24) #56

Donna, I meant the fictional characters. On the whole, S&S didn't sizzle in terms of romance for me. I read it and watch it only for Willougby and Marianne, especially when he rides through the night to see if she's alright at the end of the novel. I love the man. Candace, that was marvelous.

~Ann2 Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (06:31) #57

Anne! Is that your way to keep calm? Make-up line! Snort!

~Donna Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (10:27) #58

Serana-A kiss between Edward and Elinor would have been great when they are leaving the church,instead he kissed here hand. Yes there wasn't much lust in the movie. The chemistry between Elinor and Edward was that they were so much alike. I just felt that they needed to be together.

~Donna Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (10:53) #59

These two:

~lasalle Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:34) #60

Seems to me all that kissing and physical hanky-panky should be kept to a minimum in any JA adaption. Conflicts with sentiments of a higher nature. Too much physicality in today's films, anyway. I'll allow for maybe one kiss in the streets of Bath as maybe in Persuasion; but that's all.

~Yeago Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (12:23) #61

Ann - no not really! But I noticed it in the video. Maybe its fixed in the 6 volume set. Wished I had not noticed it. In my mind, Colin Firth doesn't need any makeup!

~Inko Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (16:04) #62

Anne - that's not a make-up line on the video! It's a shadow where his collar stands away from his neck and the lighting is such that the shadow looks like it could be a line between make-up and no make-up.!

~Carolineevans Sun, Mar 30, 1997 (16:40) #63

Agreed, Inko. It disappears as the shot continues.

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