The adaptation

Ever notice that Davies likes to borrow tricks from JA? Example. He put in some foreshaddowing that Austen did not include. At the Inn at Lambton the morning when they are about to discuss going to Pemberley, Lizzy says, I think I should be quite happy to stay my whole life in Derbyshire.

Yeah, I caught that Amy. Kind of ironic, as I'm sure Lizzy was saying it to keep her uncle and aunt happy, and not because she meant it...yet! ;)

Another example of foreshadowing - Mrs Gardiner in the carriage driving to Pemberley after Mr Gardiner comments that the mistress of Pemberley "will have to put up with a great deal": Well she's not likely to be someone we know". I hate to think that there are people who watched P&P2 without knowing the story who would have missed out on all these clues. Didn't CF say in the "Making of P&P" that the producer spoiled the story for him by telling him that Darcy and Lizzie get married, because he didn't know that that's what happened!

Davies also takes dialog from scenes not in the book and brings it in to other scenes. Such as Jane and Lizzie's first chat in Jane's bedroom. Lizzie actually makes the comment about Jane being "five times as pretty as every other woman in the room" is during there garden conversation in the novel. Georgiana makes a comment on how she would love to have a sister at the Inn at Lambton. I know there are more so I'll have to watch my tapes again.

One big change from the novel, one that involves a scene we all go soft over, is the piano scene at Pemberley -- this did not occur in the book. By having an after dinner scene, we get to have everyone around the piano, etc. Also, the music keeps the conversation in the background, so the "look" fits in better. [In the novel JA has Darcy & Elizabeth meet by accident at Pemberley; Darcy brings Georgiana to the inn the next day; the day after that is a visit paid by Mrs Gardiner & Elizabeth to Georgiana (Mr G was fishing w/ some of the gentlemen); the last day in Lambton, when Darcy finds Elizabeth alone, was the intended day for the dinner party at Pemberley.] A nice change -- would not have missed the "look" for the world.

JA ties up the story a bit more in the end but what a painful task it must have been to leave out portions of the book. I long for the day after the second proposal. The smoldering that must have been going on when they were the only ones who knew about their engagement. With so much build up just a bit more of the acknowledged lovers pls..

Darcy: (I am sure others will have more and better things to add on this subject.) There was so much added to give dimension to his character. And Firth's delivery of JA's lines made them more consistent with a man of feeling than any reading I had been able to give them. For example, his cold, formal inquiries after the Bennet family health - finally I see a man "in love" and struggling to think of something to say. And they added the great scenes of the elopement, Darcy's efforts to find Wickham and Lydia in London, the wedding and other events we only learn about in letters in the novel.

I noticed something new the last time I watched P&P2. At the Netherfield Ball, Mary speaks to a servant, then clutches her music. Next, we see that same servant speak to Mr. Bingley, who gets up and asks for musical entertainment. Mary rushes to the pianoforte (or fortepiano, I missed that discussion, so I don't know the difference) and Mr. Bingley says, "Miss Mary Bennet, you have anticipated me." (may not be the exact words).

Did Jane ever say in the book that Darcy "might improve upon closer acquaintance" or was this a Davis thing?

"Improve" and "improvement" are words she uses a lot, referring to people, houses and property. I searched for it one time for some forgotten reason. I can look later, maybe tonight, Amy. But I have a feeling she probably says just "improves on acquaintance." Amy

](Amy): she probably says just "improves on acquaintance." Indeed, Elizabeth's words are "But I think Mr. Darcy improves on acquaintance." This is in response to a comment from Wickham that Col Fitzwilliam's manners are very different from Darcy's. Elizabeth is trying to rile Wickham up a bit, I believe, now that she knows the truth about his dealings w/ Darcy. Another of her lines from this conversation is "In essentials, I believe, he is very much what he ever was." Capital, capital!

Didn't Jane say something smiliar early on, to the effect that: "Perhaps Mr. Darcy will improve upon closer acquaintance?" Or have I just attended too many Christmas parties this week?

Yes she did but, I don't think she said this in the book.

One thing I noticed in the adaptation was Davies' sly humor. When Col. Fitzwilliam first sits down in Hunsford and says to Lizzie "I've heard much about you and none of the praise has been exaggerated" Lizzie answers "I can well believe that; Mr. Darcy is my severest critic." I always think that Lizzie believes there was no praise, and therefore it couldn't be exaggerated. I like the play on words there. I also like the way Davies put in the talks between Jane and Lizzie in their bedrooms to cover material that is only "thought" by Lizzie in the book. And I particularly liked the scene (while Lizzie was reading Darcy's letter) of Bingley sitting in a very low chair and everybody else talking down at him. It makes him out to be rather weak-willed, which is what she thinks in the book, without ever having to put that into words.

That low-angle shot of Bingley being "persuaded" is a classic. I also love the "Darcy cam" which shows us his contemptuous P.O.V. of those "simple country" gatherings!

Anybody notice how the camera becomes the gaze of Mrs Gardiner just as she leaves the miniature case at Pemberley. She shifts her attention from Wickham to Darcy based on Mrs Reynold's information. It reminds me of a shot in The Natural. Near the beginning, in the set-up, when the Lady in Black changes her target from the Whammer (fictional Babe Ruth) to Roy Hobbs, the hero. In this case it's a close up of her eyes shifting their focus, then the camera pans from the Whammer to Roy at just the same speed shown in the close up.

It's funny, because in fiction these days, you're always cautioned to NEVER THE CHANGE THE P.O.V. . This might confuse those poor, befuddled readers. Don't tell Dickens or Austen though. They seemed to employ the multiple P.O.V. well enough. . .

Austen and Dickens did have to write for people who had both their IQs and their attention spans permanently lowered by TV.

Very true. They didn't have modern distractions like the Internet to contend with.

Tolstoy even shifts the POV to a dog in Anna Karenina.

I can't help but wondering what Mr. (?) Davies would think of all this. Is he a Yank or Brit? Can we find him and ask him questions in a chat room sometime? He would probably get a big kick out of this. Or think we are all whacko's. Dina

Davies is English, Dina. I have wondered too what he and Birtwistle and the gang would think of this. Maybe they know. I'd be honored.

OK, what about the SCREAM. You know what I mean, when Darcy is writing his letter to Elizabeth. At one point, relating his story about Wickham, he leans back in his chair in anguish -- and you hear faint screaming the in background! Like a crazy woman or something. I'm not sure what this is supposed to be. Maybe it is a representation of the terrible demonous thoughts that Darcy had to conjure up to write the tale of his dealings with Wickham. Or maybe Lady Catherine is mad, off screaming in her room ..

Kathy, my friend! I'm so glad you asked about the scream! It troubled me too, every time I heard it and we discussed it on the old BB. The concensus was that it was most likely peacocks (which are rampant on old English estates) or foxes (also frequent inhabitants). I suggested at the time that perhaps it was Lady C, flogging Mr. Collins (much to his delight!) but the others thought not...

I know the source of the scream! I was watching the show with headphones on, and it's birds shrieking in the BG. It's a very WUTHERING HEIGHTS sort of sound.

Actually, Austen doesn't shift point of view that often -- we mainly stay firmly with the heroine, and only occasionally nip of to witness a chat between Darcy and Miss Bingley, or between poor Miss Taylor and George Knightley.

She does shift between the third and first person though, which today is a shooting offense (if certain writing teachers are to be believed).

Thank you so much for explaining the SCREAM - I was finding it most vexing - it sounded like one of Lady C's maids had finally gone over the edge.

What you guys said before about Davies is a really cool idea! How about Colin Firth, Jennifer Ehle, Susana Harkar, and Crispin Carter, I think thats his name all join in for an evening at Pemberley? If you also want to be absolutley mortified, introduce them to the Spring they may come across a certain subject that involves drooling!

Yes Cat, I was just thinking about that the other day.I would be totally mortified so I will curtail my excessive drooling.

Donna: " I was just thinking about that the other day.I would be totally mortified so I will curtail my excessive drooling." Oh Donna, please don't do that! The chances of him showing up here are remote at best. Besides, I feel almost certain that he would simply say, "I would by no means suspend any pleasure of yours."

Has anyone noticed that when Darcy & Bingley return to the Pemberly drawing room after having seen Lizzy & the Gardiners off after dinner, that they seem to have lost Georgiana? She'd been with them downstairs, saying goodbye. It's too bad because I wonder how she would have reacted to Darcy's statement later in that scene that he considered Elizabeth to be one of the handsomest women of his acquaintance. Would she have suspected that something was up, or was she too young & inexperiencec? We'll never know.

Could there be any way we could invite them to an evening at Pemberley?

"Could there be any way we could invite them to an evening at Pemberley? ' "Them" being CF ect.? I fear it would be most unlikely - isn't CF the one who doesn't even own a television set?

Yes he is the one, but he might own a computer Joan, you never know. I just read somewhere that Gena Davis husband goes into chat rooms under a different name and talks about his/her movies. So, we really don't know who we are talking with.

Anne3 ] Would she have suspected that something was up? I think the way Georgiana looked at Lizzy and Darcy after 'the look' indicated she already knew something was up. Maybe she had had enough of the sisters Bingley by then and shot through.

Who else saw "the Look" BTW? Did Miss Bingley or Mrs. Gardiner? Lizzy & Darcy weren't being none too subtle in the way they looked at each other, but I can't remember how everyone in the room was positioned. Amy?

Amy2: "Who else saw "the Look" BTW?" Good question...I feel sure that Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst saw it, they had positioned themselves directly opposite Darcy (or so it seemed), and Georgiana, of course. I believe that Mr. Gardiner would have been the only one besides Darcy in the correct position to see Lizzy's returning gaze. " Lizzy & Darcy weren't being none too subtle in the way they looked at each other" No they weren't, were they? Ain't it great? :-)

A line I have come to love is Darcy's one-syllable response when Miss Bingley starts in on Elizabeth the morning after she and the Gardners had left the country. He seems aroused from deep thought and utters "What?" in a tone that implies anger, indignation, and distraction. He immediately leaves the room, not bothering any explanation or further reply. Miss Bingley as at last irritated him beyond even cold civility. Wow!

PS - and I love THE LOOK. I would liked to have seen every face in the room as they too saw THE LOOK. Except Mr. Hurst, of course. I would even enjoy a quick rewrite of the Bingly-Jane resolution where Bingly confronts Darcy about 'THE LOOK', and Darcy confesses all. Bingley jumps on his horse at Pemberly instead of Nettherfield and rides all the way to Longborne, overtaking the Gardner's carriage but too exhuberant to notice them. They arrive at Longborne a day later to find Jane and Bingley already engaged... Or perhaps, he considers himself a concerned party and goes to London with Darcy to help root out the foolish little sister and her rotten lover. They could be Redford and Newman, male-bonding during a 'town adventure', laughing their way through the sorrier side of London. Ah, but JA did not write male-bonding adventure stories, did she? Xmas eve-eve flights of fancy.

I must say I _definitely_ appreciated the lack of subtlety in "The Look" myself!

"I must say I _definitely_ appreciated the lack of subtlety in "The Look" myself!' As far as L & D were concerned, thre was no need for subtlety - they were alone in the room. :-)

But did Lizzy really return the look? In scene later that night, when Darcy walks through his darkened house to once again breathe the same air she breathed, he still seems unsure about her feelings. And in the end of the book he says that it was not until Lady C. told him of her conversation with Lizzy that his doubts were ended. I don't think he was certain of her until long after the Look.

] I don't think he was certain of her until long after the Look. ____ Or maybe he had a strong feeling the affection was becoming more mutual, but he feared he could no longer trust his feelings?

"But did Lizzy really return the look?' Indeed - we saw that she did, but after the reaming-out that Lizzie had given him in Hunsford, Darcy was not at all certain of her, as we can see as he reviews that moment in his mind after the fact, and he sees an ambiguous expression, rather than the actual expression that we all witnessed as "innocent bystanders".

] he sees an ambiguous expression, rather than the actual expression that we all witnessed as "innocent bystanders". Is it really a different shot, Joan? I will have to look. Confession time: have not watched it in months.

"Is it really a different shot?' Quite different - an excellent excuse to look at each again. :-)

Here's my theory, tho' you may not like it: I think The Look was great -- incredibly romantic, and that's why Davies put it there, for us, the viewing audience. But it's not in Austen, and the story that unfolds afterward _is_ Austen's. Maybe this explains the big of cognitive dissonance we're having trying to reconcile two people staring at each other like they want to get married THAT SECOND, to Darcy later telling Lizzie he had to wait for Aunt C.'s reaction.

Amy2 - you are right that the look was not in the book. But I have no trouble reconciling THE LOOK to what was in the book. Darcy assumed that she would accept him the first time and was extremely pained by her refusal. He would need more than THE LOOK to make another assumption like that. He could decide, on reflection, that her side of the look only meant sympathy, understanding, and kindness for him and for Georgiana at the moment.

I guess I read a little more into it than that. Without overstepping the PG13 bounds of this board, Lizzy & Darcy at that moment seemed like two people who would have very little trouble heading upstairs and uh. . playing whist, y'know?

Amy2 - I agree. They looked deeply and passionately in love at that moment. What I am thinking is that afterwards - when he reflected on both THE LOOK and THE REFUSAL and her discomfort when he visited with Bingley at Longborne - he could have easily begun to think he had read too much into it - that the passion he thought he had seen in her eyes was only a reflection of his own. I am only trying to reconcile THE LOOK, which I love but was not in the book, with the irony of Lady Catherine helping to bring them together which I also love and which was in both the book and P&P2. I want to keep them both. Merry Xmas, Amy2.

Joan, too - there were two looks that Lizzie gave Darcy; the first was when she looked up from turning the page of music - sort of ambiguous, tentative, not sure of what she would see (that's the one Darcy sees in his review later on) and then, when she sees his is looking at her with a slight smile, she returns with a smile of her own. At that point, today, they'd have gone off to be alone somewhere. But in 1812, they couldn't and Darcy was still unsure of her feelings, while she thought he'd be too pr ud to propose twice.

"he could have easily begun to think he had read too much into it - that the passion he thought he had seen in her eyes was only a reflection of his own. ' Exactly - even without a Lady C. in the mix. It would take more than one encouraging look to overcome the effects of Lizzie's strong words upon his forst proposal. "You have said quite enough madam. I perfectly comprehend your feelings." Not much has yet happened to cause her to change her opinions. And he is still the one who has interfered between Mr. Bingley and Jane. It seems that he has this in mind, too - do you recall as L & D walk together when he asks permission to introduce her to his sister, and he mentions with some trepidation that Mr. Bingley and his sisters are among the party - after which there is an uncomfortable little pause, followed by Lizzie just saying "Oh" - they are both thinking of his role in the Bingley/Jane usiness.

RE: Response 25 of 53: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Thu, Dec 19, 1996 (11:06) * 1 lines I know the source of the scream! I was watching the show with headphones on, and it's birds shrieking in the BG. It's a very WUTHERING HEIGHTS sort of sound. I highly recommend listening to all of P&P2 with headphones on. You pick up all manner of background and vocal items and nuances otherwise missed. Ex., background chat at parties & balls; low-mike comments by leads, such as Darcy & Lizzie out on Pemberly patio just starting to converse together; even background sounds that, due to the closed environment of the headset, make you feel like you're right there with, say, Darcy in splashing tub or pond, or next to him as his fingers tweak out the sizzling ca dle after hours of letter-writing his beloved... (if you watch this way at, say, the wee hours when others are abed, the only embarrassment is the occasional comment you find yourself saying outloud as you "join in" with the soundtrack, a sort of karaoke-script overlay, if you know what I mean!) ;-)

Karaoke P&P. Sounds great.

My first acknowledged LOL, what will you think of next!

I'm up. I'll see ya there Amy.

Thanks for the X-mas greeting, Kendall! I too would like to be able to reconcile The Look with the remainder of Austen's plot -- I think you've come as close as any human can. But it just seems to me that after these two have exchanged this look that says, "Take me, I'm yours!" it's very odd to then dither about and have to depend upon Lady C. "doing good" to secure his own wishes. But perhaps you are right -- he might have felt he had to wrap up the Jane/Bingley affair before straightening out his own Yes, I have watched all of P&P2 with headphones on -- the Foley and backgrounds are great!

Ahh, yes. The difficulty of a movie version is in trying to convey all that the novel tells us about the thoughts & feelings of the characters, and in a limited number of minutes. The LOOK as such probably never occurred in the novel, at least it is not described. Elizabeth's feelings were still in a state of flux when she and Mrs Gardiner visited Georgiana at Pemberley (the evening visit never occurred). But the LOOK in the movie lets us see that our heroine and hero have reached a mutual attraction, even though Elizabeth has not yet disclosed this to anybody. Lydia's elopement would convince Elizabeth that Darcy was lost forever, and maybe Darcy didn't want to assume that she would have changed her mind until the Jane/Bingley match was made. Even in the book I do not think that Lady C's interference was absolutely necessary to bring E & D together, but it helped speed things up. (And it gave us more reason to dislike the snob!)

It seems that Austen was struggling to find a moral message in Lady Catherin's interference at the end of the book: Lizzy asks: "For what becomes of the moral, if our comfort springs from a breach of promise? (Lydia's thoughtlessness in betraying Darcy's secret). To which Darcy replies: "You need not distress yourself. The moral will be perfectly fair. Lady C's unustifiable endeavours to separate us were the means of removing all my doubts."

I know I am one of the few who think that Darcy could have proposed at the Inn at Lambton but even if you don't think that there are reasons to justify The Look. This is the first time we see Lizzy responding (warmly) to Darcy. I think The Look makes the subsequent scene with Lizzy and Jane talking about how Darcy won't been renewing his proposal seem more realistic. When Jane says to L, "surely you do not care for him" or something to that affect, Lizzy says she doesn't but she sounds doubtful. Lizzy seems remorseful about her initial rejection of him. (Basically I believe she is in denial at this point) And The Look gives justification for Darcy to go to the Inn (even if some don't think he is going to propose). It shows a man compelled to be near the woman he loves and prove he is worthy of her love. Anyway that's my two cents.

Darcy is in such a rush to be off to that Inn that I too thought he might propose, if he thought he could ascertain Lizzy's feelings at that point. I also never believed Lizzy when she tells Jane that she doesn't know if Darcy was in love with her; and that "she doesn't know" why she cares if he's thinking ill of her. Maybe it's just so obvious to the audience and she is in deep denial, as Karen says. Is it also possible she's withholding her true feelings from Jane, Maybe knowing that Darcy loves her but now he's gone forever, what with the Lydia affair? See Karen, you are not the only incurable romantic on this board!

Amy, I think Lizzie was withholding her true feelings from Jane when she says "I never sought them" (Darcy's attentions). Also, she was trying not to mention the fact that the Bingleys were in Derbyshire. In the book there is something to the effect that she had to be careful not to reveal too much to Jane because it might give her pain (very bad paraphrasing). I think Lizzie knew her feelings by that time, but it was all too late because of Lydia. As to Darcy rushing off to the Inn, I think he wanted to spend the day with her - to see if he could make her love the "new" Darcy and he probably wanted to catch her before she set off for a day of sightseeing. Of course, there's always the possibility that after a day spent wandering around Pemberley (after dumping Miss Bingley in the lake, otherwise she'd have been entirely in the way) he'd have proposed before she and the Gardiners left Derbyshire!;-)

Well Amy I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

When examining JA's characters' motivations, we must not forget to keep in mind the peculiar rules of society of the times, of which JA had an excellent understanding, and deliberately used them to further her plots. In this context, JA's contemporary readers would have had no doubt at all that things were inescapably over between L&D after Lydia's elopement, no matter what the sentiments of the principals. At the time of the visit to Pemberley, while she no longer thought negatively about Darcy, had not yet arrived at the point at which she thought favorably of him. The visit itself began that turn-around in her attitude. I think that Davies used "The Look" scene to "telegraph" the chapter in which JA goes on at length about what Lizzie is thinking at night when she can not sleep - when she tries to examine her feelings towards Darcy and cannot decide how she feels: As for Elizabeth, her thoughts were at Pemberley this evening more than the last; and the evening, though as it passed it seemed long, was not long enough to determine her feelings towards one in that mansion. [details of her thought process snipped - Chapter 44 if you want to read them] She respected, she esteemed, she was grateful to him, she felt a real interest in his welfare, and she only wanted to know how far she wished that welfare to depend upon herself, a d how far it would be for the happiness of both that she should employ the power,which her fancy told her she still posessed, of bringing on the renewal of his addresses. Darcy, on the other hand, would not have been ready to renew his proposal following morning, after the shredding that Lizzie gave him the first time he tried, but he definitely does want to pursue the acquaintance and demonstrate that he has taken her criticisms to heart, and following "The Look" he has reason to believe that a vist from him will, at least, not be unwelcome. So just as each is in the mood to be pleased by the other, JA throws a curve - Lydia's escapade with Wickham. To JA's contemporaries, this event would represent the certain loss of all hope for a marriage between Lizzie and Darcy. And after this disgrace, once Lizzie finally began to admit to herself that Darcy would have been an excellent match for her, she had strong and compelling societal reasons for believing that even if he did still love her, an alliance between them would now be impossible.

I agree that Darcy wasn't going to the Inn to propose, but he couldn't stay away either; there was too much love felt on his side. This is consistent with the rapidity with which his mental planning on how soon he could introduce his sister to Lizzie progresses. If I recall correctly, in the book this progresses from waiting a day (I think) to allow Georgiana time to relax and recover from her journey to ultimately justifying in his own mind that he could take her there almost as soon as she had arrived at Pemberley. I don't think he ever successfully repressed his feelings after Lizzie refused his marriage proposal. All stuff a good love story is made up of!

Mary-- *sigh*

I don't think he ever successfully repressed his feelings after Lizzie refused his marriage proposal. Of course not - even though JA has very little to offer us with regard to the state of Darcy's mind, his behavior speaks for him. :-)

You are too much! No wonder so many of us enjoy sharing on this BB, conference, or whatever the heck it is called in computerland. A 'sigh' from Cheryl is appreciated as I have noticed her good opinion is rarely bestowed and therefore more worth the earning .(I think I read that in a book somewhere..)

Mary-- :-)

Joan, too wrote: "Darcy, ....definitely does want to pursue the acquaintance ....and following "The Look" he has reason to believe that a vist from him will, at least, not be unwelcome." Oh, he has such hopes that morning after the nigth before! Whenever I think of his hurried morning, the way he starts off on his horse- why that whip-lash makes my heart flutter, it bears witness of his eagerness to get to Lizzy - and his face and voice when he is entering with Hanna.... I would so much like to know what he is beginning to say before he is interrupted by Lizzy's bewildered countenance and 'I have not an instant to loose'.

Joan, too wrote: "Darcy, ....definitely does want to pursue the acquaintance ....and following "The Look" he has reason to believe that a vist from him will, at least, not be unwelcome." Oh, he has such hopes that morning after the nigth before! Whenever I think of his hurried morning, the way he starts off on his horse- why that whip-lash makes my heart flutter, it bears witness of his eagerness to get to Lizzy - and his face and voice when he is entering with Hanna.... I would so much like to know what he is beginning to say before he is interrupted by Lizzy's bewildered countenance and 'I have not an instant to loose'.

I too would like to know what he is beginning to say. I don't think that he meant to propose, rather that he was so nervous about seeing her again that he had been rehearsing what to say beforehand. cute

Any chance he might thank her for intervening so seamlessly the night before & saving his sister from embarrassment?

thank her for intervening so seamlessly the night before & saving his sister from embarrassment? I have the feeling that the 'done thing' would have been to ignore the episode entirely thereafter, and Darcy might well have had trouble discussing Wickham with Elizabeth at that stage because of the associations.

Anna, I think you are quite right in thinking Darcy would have ignored the episode. It would be a very un-english thing to mention it, especially since the LOOK has already thanked Elizabeth for the job done.Darcy has enough problems communicating as it is without making problems for himself by re-hashing what has gone on before.My own personal theory is that he just cannot stay away from her, just as happens bfore his proposal at Hunsford.He pobably hasno idea of what he wants to do and say,except that h wants something magical like that to happen again.

//Darcy ...My own personal theory is that he just cannot stay away from her, just as happens before his proposal at Hunsford.He probably has no idea of what he wants to do and say,except that he wantssomething magical like that to happen again.// ...(meaning the LOOK) Oh Caroline, that was very well put indeed!

That's it exactly, Caroline! :-)

I have read scholarly reports that Darcy went to the inn that fateful morning with the intention to propose (although I never could discern why the scholars believed this to be so). Yet, I believe that Davies and Firth believed this to be the case. When Darcy returns to the music room, late at night in his darkened house, he gazes at the pianoforte in an attempt to recreate the moment. His eyes (oh, those eyes!) show pleasure, fear, and then a look of resolution and determination. IMHO, this is CF's f nest bit of acting in the entire production. I just melt whenever I watch this scene.

If he was going to that inn to propose, he must not have had a nerve in his body! (But the saying goes, "No guts, no glory.") What could have happened, between Darcy and Lizzy, between then and when they next met at Longbourn to make him LESS sure of her at Longbourn? Nevermind, I can answer my own question - she was silent and grave. Ok, but anyway, I think it more likely that he was going just to hang out to try to confirm the vibes he was getting from her the night before - to see if she remained s ftened toward him.

I vote for the "no new proposal just yet" side of the argument. I can remember being young and "brand new" in love - I remember thinking only about the next time I saw him, and I was sure he was thinking about the next time he saw me. We were not ready to get married - even go steady - maybe not even sure we wanted to arrange a date - but to see each other again as soon as possible was the hightest priority for both of us. I think there is a point in romance when we are literally taking it one day, one meeting at a time, and that this is where both Darcy and Elizabeth are by the close of the first evening at Pemberly. Both knew that the other wanted the next meeting - but after E's forced abrupt departure, the luxury of the 'next meeting' was lost and neither was sure that what the other felt could lead to a more lasting commitment.

Very well put, Katy. I'm with you. I think he just wanted to see her again, maybe spend the day with her, but it was much too soon to try his luck again.

I figured it out this way that he was going to invite them all again to Pemberley,because in the book it was a morning visit this would be an evening visit.Then if he could spend the day with her,also He did say we would not see this evening at Pemberely due to Lydia/Wickham fiasco.

// to see each other again as soon as possible was the hightest priority for both of us.// Yes Katy, I can remember that same feeling. Every morning you woke up and almost your first thought would be, will I be able to see him today? And you would arrange such coincidences that were almost bound to place him in your way. The trouble never seemed too great, and your ingenuity was never more inventive. "You fly down a street, on the chance that you'll meet, and you meet... not really by chance" (from The King and I) And when that neeting comes about, when you are in the same room or inn or whatever, who can tell what's going to happen? Ooh, now it all comes back to me. I think Darcy had some rather strong hopes of their taking some steps further on their way to mutual understanding. Some steps at least, he wished... at the very least. Confirm the vibes as Sharon said.

] "You fly down a street, on the chance that you'll meet, __ I vaguely remember this feeling, too, Ann. Thanks for jogging my memory.

You guys have brought me around to your P.O.V. After viewing the adaptation, I could have sworn Darcy was galloping off to that Inne to propose to Lizzy; but I agree that after her fierce rejection to Proposal #1, he was probably just trying to gauge her feelings.

Amy W: A proposal at the inn isn't a total impossibility. After all there is no accounting for the actions of a guy with a ...Never mind. I'll stroll over to the daggy section.

Sharon!!!

Amy2, re: galloping off to the Inn ----- The nonverbal proposal actions are something we've talked about a little before. Like Bingley, Darcy is short with his servant and rides like the wind. For the casual viewer, one-time viewer (or stupid viewer as we like to term it) the connection would not be made, since the Bingley proposal happens later.

Right. It almost seems like the filmmakers _want us_ to believe he's galloping off to propose, whereas the book's logic dictates that he would not until he's better able to discern Lizzie's feelings.

As posted in Amy's BB, I too always felt he looked blissed and then perplexed, and quite eager to leave Pemberley the next morning. That made me believe he would maybe propose again. But the more I think about it, the less consistent it is with his later reaction whether after he learns of the elopment or when visiting at Longbourne. It doesnt MESH well [new word of the day :)]. Although it as been discussed before, I believe even if he acted for Lizzy only, another part was his feeling he should have told people about Wickham much earlier. This reason he gave the Gardiner has a ring of truth. Wickham was almost a brother to him for so many years, responsible as Darcy is, he surely had some kind of fraternel instinct in bailing him out, a bit of guilt feeling maybe as well. Especially after what Lizzy's mention "if only people knew about Wickham, I knowing should have told", we c n guess him thinking the same for him or at least feeling guilty at these words.

I base my reaction on that lovely bit after the dinner party, where he is almost skipping through the darkened rooms at Pemberley.He remembers Lizzy's "look", then his happy dream seems to dissolve.His face seems to go from "God, she's wonderful" to "but does she feel what I think she feels?" and then to "How am I going to make her like me?" And before that, as he is seeing the carriage off, he just looks plain Worried.If her spends the night pondering this,he won't be ready risk himself again in t e morning. Darcy works a lot on "impartial observation" and would need more encouragement from Lizzie than just one look.

Worried, you bet and to say the least! This just plain confirms my second opinion, less romantic maybe but so much more rational. Very convincing, Caroline.

Yeah, old big-foot evans,stomps all over the romance, again!Actually, I don't think Darcy himselfis a romantic soul.He certainly is ambivalent about all the things that go with romance, like compliments, dancing andpresents. Neither of his propsals is at all romantic,really.;-}

Darcy definitely is a down to earth guy who listens his inner thoughts and feelings, while avoiding an overrated macho attitude and any unnatural artifice. This is most pleasing

'.. don't think Darcy himself is a romantic soul.' Au contraire, Caroline! He may be a complete doof when it comes to implementation, but don't forget his response to Elizabeth saying, "...I wonder who first discovered the efficacy of poetry in driving love away?" He said, "I have been used to consider poetry the *food* of love."

I used to think that D was planning to renew his proposal' . I still think that that is what we ment to think by Davies et al. However The LOOK is inconsistent not only with the book, but also with his leaving E so abruptly after she confides in him about the elopement (her trust seems suddenly misplaced). Her trust is equivalent to his when he tells her about his sister. Didn't he realise the significance of that trust? No he did not need his Aunt to help him! The LOOK would have given Bingley' and through him Jane some indication as to E state of mind, making J's surprise at E & D engagement rather improbable (on top of all she must have gathered from her own talks with E). But like everyone here I loved the LOOK they might as well have kissed right there and than.

'The LOOK is inconsistent not only with the book...' I don't think it is THAT inconsistent from the book. He was 'with a heightened complextion, earnestly looking at her' when Caroline was sticking her foot in her mouth and then Lizzy dealt with it and 'quieted his emotion'. She was afraid to look at his eyes, but you can imagine how he must have been looking at her.

Another thing, Bingley might have caught Darcy's "look" at Lizzie at Pemberley but he couldn't have seen Lizzie's returning "look" since she was behind where he was sitting. So Bingley might have had some idea of Darcy's feeling but not of Lizzie's and Jane probably told him that Lizzie disliked Darcy (which she also thought at the time).

Ednaw: The LOOK would have given Bingley' and through him Jane some indication as to E state of mind. Bingley may not have noticed; he was very likely giving his full attention to his partner in conversation (we hear their voices in the

Dirty word! Well I am not about to try to re-create that whole thing all over again. When will I ever learn not to type directly into this stupid non-cacheable window!

Oh, Joan,Joan, say it is not so!We will never know what you were going to say! ;-)(emoticon in case picture does not work!)

Well, what do you know.....

kendall (response #81), I think you've got it nailed. I never thought Darcy was going to propose at the Inn. It was just that Elizabeth seemed to finally be somewhat favorably disposed to him and SHE WAS SO CLOSE! He simply couldn't stand not to go to her.

' He simply couldn't stand not to go to her.' ssssiiiigggghhhhhh

I have read your comments and am lead to believe there are no helpless romantics out there. Sure logic would tell Darcy not to propose at the Inn but if he went by logic he never would have proposed in the first place. But on a serious note, even when I've read (and re-read) the novel, there is no real reason for Darcy to go to the Inn other than to see Lizzy. We know that arrangements have already been made for their respective parties to meet. I know after being slammed as he had been, he would be r luctant to put himself out there again but . . . And also when he is comforting Lizzy at the Inn, the dialog let out reveals Darcy as much more tender than he is portrayed. In Chapter 46, he says, "I am afraid you have long been desiring my absence, nor have I anything to plead in excuse of my stay, but real, though unavailing, concern. Would to Heaven that anything could be either said or done on my part that might offer consolation to such distress! But I will not torment you with vain withes, which may seem purposely to ask for your thanks. This unfortunate affair. . . I still think the aura of that last evening was working on him and anything would have been possible.

Karen, I like you attitude! I too am a hopeless romantic and would love to think that after THE LOOK, Darcy got on that horse and galloped like the wind to propose to Lizzy again. I agree that the adaptation kind of muddies the water, because it seems like the filmmakers are trying to go for maxiumum romance while still staying true to the book. THE LOOK is so powerful that the story almost stops there -- it's clear these two are in love, and are going to get married. It's almost like the Wickham sub- lot doesn't matter -- I think Darcy would have married Lizzy even if Wickham and Lydia were living in sin forever. He was that far gone.

]he was that far gone.... And isn't that why we love him so!

Amy2 - I agree with you THE LOOK is that powerful but the novel also does leave the door open for one to think that he might ask her again. I can understand why literary critics felt that he was going there to ask her as well. Meggin - Yes, this is why we love him so!!! And now for something completely different. . . Why is it when Lizzy is flashing back to Wickham's behavior prior to the elopement, she imagines him saying he is loath to leave Lydia? When it happened, Wickham was referrig to Lizzy. Also is there really the possibility that Mr. Bennet will fight Wickham or Mrs. Bennett just being crazy (again)? Mrs. B. blathers this nonsense in the novel as well. I remember reading one critic who obviously thought Mr. B. would fight. As for me, I always thought thi was Mrs. B. being hysterical.

' she imagines him saying he is loath to leave Lydia? ' I chose to interpret this as Elizabeth wondering if he could have been thinking of Lydia, thinking back to see if there was anything that could have tipped her off. or Mrs. Bennett just being crazy (again)? ' She's crazy. Mr. Bennet nor Mr. Wickham appear to be of the temperament to duel.

Would such a duel have been swords or pistols? What would Brandon and Willoughby have used.

They've been talking about duelling on Austen-L lately, Ann. You could do a search. Looks like very soon Arnessa will have the list archives here for us. That will be nice.

Karen: Why is it when Lizzy is flashing back to Wickham's behavior prior to the elopement, she imagines him saying he is loath to leave Lydia? There was considerable discussion about this some time ago. It is a device used a number of times by the screenwriter to give "instant insight" into the state of mind of a character without having to use a conversation or a "voice over". In this case, Lizzie had always assumed that Wickham had meant her, but now she begins to wonder whether he actually meant Lydia. There are many other such cases - such as when Lizzie thinks back to the Netherfield Ball after Darcy's first proposal, and envisions the behavior of her relations as even more vulgar than they actualy were, or when Darcy returns to the music room at Pemberley in the dark and thinks back upon "the look" - the expression that he "sees" in his mind is quite ambiguous - not the same warm and wonderful look that we, ourselves, saw on Lizzie's face. He is not sure of what she is thinking - although we re. There are many others...

Or when he walks back from the disaster at Hunsford. Lizzy's voice is even more angry than it was earlier. That may have made the first proposal scene even harder to act: both actors had to leave room at the top of their emotions so that Lizzy could be angrier in the voice over and Darcy could be ruder.

There are many others... __ Should we list them? One interesting one is our first glimpse of Georgiana as a self-assured young lady receiving the attentions of Bingley. Is this Jane's vision -- or Lizzy's, as Caroline's letter is being read aloud?

Amy: . . . our first glimpse of Georgiana as a self-assured young lady receiving the attentions of Bingley. Is this Jane's vision -- or Lizzy's, as Caroline's letter is being read aloud? I'd say it's Caroline's. But it could be Lizzy's as well. Certainly not Jane's--she's too sweet to be bitchy, even in a situation like this.

I think it's Jane's as she sees it "drawn" by Caroline. Not in a bitchy way, but imagining her as actually being that self-assured and accomplished.

It's a really interesting device, and I'm glad Davies used it. It's kind of a RASHOMON view of the same events as viewed by different characters. I like it very well indeed!

Amy2: It's a really interesting device, and I'm glad Davies used it. Not to take anything away from Davies, but shouldn't we be giving some credit (here and elsewhere) to Simon Langton, the director? I'm sure he was responsible for many of the effects we admire.

Joan: I think its Jane's as she sees it "drawn" by Caroline I think its Caroline's rather than Jane's because, near the end, Darcy is smiling and looking at Caroline (obviously C.'s wish) but Jane would know he a: never smiles and b)not at Caroline!! Anne3: I think you're right - Davies wrote the scene but Simon Langton implemented it. Probably a good example of the two of them working together.

Sorry Anne3. Writers so very rarely get credit for anything in film, I guess I was a little overzealous. You're right -- Simon Langton did an all around spectacular job directing the show. It seemed he made all the right choices, with never a misstep!

I hate the direction of the scene where Darcy first calls on Hunsford alone and sits with Lizzy for a while. His head is almost off the side of the screen!

Lizzy's conversation with Col. Fitwilliam in the park at Rosings is really excessively truncated and botched, in my opinion...

=excessively truncated and botched How scarce a word for a so important missing part, you surprise me HC ;). Excessively indeed. How I missed the matter of Darcy's power and his freedom followed by the Colonel's hardships because of rank, lack of money and therefore his own lack of freedom and to openly choose love over money. We could have been tantalized in believing, like Lizzy, of his deeper interest in her well-being, his falling for her.

But Henry, in a filmic sense, it conveys everything it should, and in a time-efficient way. Davies knew that Col. Fitzwilliam is not a particularly major character, so he wasn't going to waste a lot of screentime on him. I have to say I agree with his choice.

I'm with HC and Johanne on this. Aside from being so abrupt--"Will you walk with me, Miss Bennet?" "Do you know the Bingleys?"--we lost a lot: the glimpse into Darcy's background that helps us understand his pride, the conversation about Georgiana that prepares us for the story in Darcy's letter, the attraction between Fitzwilliam and Lizzy that shows how attractive she is to men and how difficult the marriage market is for her. And Antony Calf was such an appealing Colonel--I would like to have seen ore of him.

Janet, next time, "The Colonel's Story" !!!

Anne3: And Antony Calf was such an appealing Colonel--I would like to have seen more of him. Yes I liked him too and would like more, but not at the expense of seeing more of Darcy! What do you propose cutting out? ;-) I know we're all of the "adding to" faction here...10 hours wouldn;t have been long enough for us! ;-)

I'm with Cheryl, though I did miss that longer scene with Col. Fitz; I'd also liked to have Lizzie and Darcy actually walking, if not talking, together. I think 8 or 10 hours would have been fine!! Then they could have included everything!! Actually, if I'm not much mistaken, I think Anthony Calf wasn't in P&P2 much because he was probably busy filming "Madness of George III" at the same time. He had a bigger role in that, and wore nearly the same uniform!!

..."and wore the same uniform"... Yes, and I thought it made him appear rather "hippy". I don't like lard-y men----give me Darcy any ol' day!

who did Col. Fitz play in King George? I cannot place him...

Fitzroy, another Fitz

Johanne: Fitzroy, another Fitz Sorry dear, not enough info...who was Fitzroy? Do I just need to go rent the movie again? I also didn't know that Laura's Rupert was in this too...:-(

Cheryl, Fitzroy was a military aide to King George III and stayed loyal to him. I don't know if Laura's Rupert was in this - I don't remember him - but Rupert Everett played the Prince of Wales (later regent and George IV). RE was in Another Country with CF. Actually, I'd seen the stage play in London and didn't pay too much attention to the movie.

We saw so little of Col. Fitzwilliam in the adaptation that he did tend to come off like the town gossip/flirt.

And only one small photo in the "Making of ..." book

Back to Ann's comment (#122) on the filming of Darcy's first solo visit to Hunsford. The great distance between Darcy and Lizzy is certainly irritating. but I think it was quite deliberate. It is an uncomfortable scene because they are so at odds with each other. Lizzy is puzzled by his visit, his aloofness, and what he does say when he gets round to talking, (the easy distance conversation - him thinking of when they are married, she not realising this), on top of her dislike for him. Meanwhile Darcy is truggling with his attraction to her, and his usual difficulty in talking to her. I think the exaggerated separation in ther seating is meant to emphasis this. It foreshadows the proposal scene, the point at which they are furthest apart in the whole story,and it is acknowledged openly. And it also makes a lovely contrast to the scene at Lambton Inn, where they sit so close, feelings much closer and more in tune, and Darcy takes her hand.

Re 137 Hilary - I agree with you, although when Darcy starts the conversation by remarking about the alterations Lady C had made to the house he begins to "thaw" a little and look more at ease than Lizzy. If he were truly very uncomfortable I don't think he'd have snickered when she said "I am sure she could not have bestowed such kindness on a more grateful recipient" (paraphrased). I love the look he gives her when she says that :)

Hilary, I too love that snicker re: grateful recipient; I always thought that he just appreciated Lizzie's humor in that and the fact that she could be polite while describing her idiotic cousin so accurately! He was actually quite "thawed" out otherwise he wouldn't have paid the call in the first place; it's Lizzie who is still very cool to him!!;-)

I have no problem with where they are sitting, I have a problem with the fact that the cameraman barely has Darcy in the frame. Most of his head is off the side of the screen. It is really annoying. There is the same problem with the second proposal scene. The camera is pulled in so tightly that Darcy keeps falling off the edge of the screen.

The camera is pulled in so tightly that Darcy keeps falling off the edge of the screen. Yes, these are both examples of errors in camera work when shooting something in film that is intended to be transferred to video. Which makes me marvel even more at the skill that it must have taken to film the Netherfield ball scene in such a masterful manner!

Joan, do you think Darcy is completely in the frame on the film then? I'd love to see that, it's always annoyed me too that he is practically out of the picture.

Yes, I like that snicker and look too....I'd forgotten about it! He does appreciate her humour, doesn't he? He may be thawed out, so to speak (!), but he still finds it hard to talk to her.

do you think Darcy is completely in the frame on the film then? Yes - would be interesting if they ever decided to distribute the filmed original to theatres. (Or televise it in letterbox format?) The place that it bothers me most is in the second proposal. At least in the parsonage scene, it is consistent with the attitudes of the characters to have them at opposite ends of the screen, and even partially "offstage" - but IMO it really looks bad in the proposal.

How dare they deprive us of even one frame of our complete darling Darcy! Blasphemy!

A&E deprived us of many frames. The video, though, includes every frame, but a few inches at each side of each frame do not show - like when they show "The King and I" without doing it in letterbox - only in that case often what you miss is significant! I love it that AMC shows those films in letterbox format.

Yeah, it's amazing how much you miss after they "pan and scan" films for TV. I think AMC did a special using KING AND I as an example, and you suddenly realize you're missing half the movie if it's not letterboxed!

TV stations are beginning to show letterboxed movies more often these days. At least cable stations are. Sci-Fi showed the Star Wars Trilogy in letter box, and of course AMC shows some movies that way as well. Hopefully people will get used to it, and the networks will pick up on it too. Probably wishful thinking, but more titles are available in letterbox in video stores and people are getting used to it. Occasionally TV does wise up. I heard that Shindler's List is going to be shown commercial-free on one of the networks--with an intermission. I don't know if there will be commercials during the intermission. They realised it would be increadibly crass to break that movie up with advertisements. Someone actually was thinking!

There is a terrific review of P&P2 in today's (2/8/97) New York Times by Christopher Lehmann-Haupt, a book reviewer for the NYT. He compares the translation of book and series and likes both better than any other Austen adaptation. I'll try the link. Hope it works! http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/arts/tv-austen-review.html

Well, since we're not from the US there is a fee involved, and I resent paying it to see one article (for now). Could you comment on it Inko ?

Johanne, sorry about the fee - didn't realize. Anyway, I also posted this in the "Ramble" topic and Amy was kind enough to put the whole article in there. She put it in last Saturday afternoon, so if you go back a bit, you'll find it there. I suggest you go read it. He liked it, he really, really liked it!!!

I probably should not have posted it. But it seemed dumb that an article should expire on the very day it comes out. I suppose I am not setting a good example. It just seemed wrong, somehow, that we, of all groups, should not be able to read it.

I tried to access the site yesterday and it had already been incinerated. At least the L.A. Times manintains articles in an archive!

Do you have an address for the online archive, Amy2? Is it pubicly accessible without registration or fee?

The New York Times on the web is free, but they want to make some money out of it by charging for the archives.

Actually, the L.A. Times started off with free archives but now charges per search. And WHy are newspapers online so eager to give you a password? What purpose does that serve?