The Matter of Britain - Arthurian Themes

Amy, Look what we have here. Let us continue our discussion of Mists of Avalon and Mary Stweart's trilogy - as well as trying to master Welsh and Gaelic...! Please, anyone with an interest in The Matter of Britain...please feel free to post!

These comments are copied and pasted from a previous discussion: (Marcia)I have also read NZB's Forest House. I'd like to get all of her books, but I really think I am most satisfied re-reading Mists of Avalon...! I keeep trying to make the others into it and am disappointed each time. (Amy Keene) I know what you mean--I read "The Lady of Avalon" and it just wasn't the same. I think I tried to read "The Forest House," but I never finished it. (Marcia) Whatever you do - don't waste your money on the anthology of other authors who write similar-type stories "in honor" of NZB. It is a waste of time to read and hou will resent the money you spent to achieve this book...it's really disappointing. I think I shall stick with re-reading MoA and be happy with that! (Amy Keene) "The Mists of Avalon" is kind of like "Hamlet"--no matter how many times you read it, you can always find something new and it's always interesting! (Marcia)Indeed - and the mark of a truly great book. If you have not yet read Mary Stweart's Crystal Cave, Hollow Hills, and The Last Enchantment....RUN and secure these little gems for your very own...my entire family (my ex and my son included) read my copies...and I re-read them regualrly. It is the Arthurian story from Merlin's viewpoint and superbly done! (Amy Keene) Have you read Bernard Cornwell's The Winter King, Enemy of God, and Excalibur? They are quite good--told from the point of view of Derfel Cadarn, one of Arthur's warriors who eventually becomes a saint. Cornwell brings back some of the characters that were taken out of the original Welsh versions of the story by the French. (Amy Keene) Oops, sorry! Have you read "Guenevere, Queen of the Summer Country," by Rosalind Miles? It's a really different take on the King Arthur legend. Amy Keene) Have you read Bernard Cornwell's The Winter King, Enemy of God, and Excalibur? They are quite good--told from the point of view of Derfel Cadarn, one of Arthur's warriors who eventually becomes a saint. Cornwell brings back some of the characters that were taken out of the original Welsh versions of the story by the French. (Marcia) I learnt what Welsh I know translating The Mabinogion and The Welsh Triads which Rachael Bromwich kindly left in the original language. Have not read the books you mention, but I am surely going to look them up! (Amy Keene) Holy cow, you translated those?!? How amazing! (Marcia) I am probably one of the few people in Hawaii with a Welsh Dictionary and Welsh grammar books...Cymric, that is *smile* It was the very thing that set me off on my five year search for the Kelts...! (Amy Keene) I have tried to teach myself Irish Gaelic, but it is almost impossible to do on your own. About all I can say is "C�ad M�le F�ilte" and "Pog Mo Tho�n"! The pronounciation is so much different than the spelling! Is Cymric the same way? (Marcia) It is far worse than Cymric...all they did with that language was to replace the vowels with consonants and to string all the words of description together as though in English we wrote Thechurchofsaintmaryinthewoodsbesideawaterfall. Gaelic, the brother language to brythonic, is far more difficult...at least it appears to be to me...

Okay, so we've talked about the modern stuff, but what about the oldies? I've read "Yvain" (in both French and English,) "Le Mort d'Arthur," and "Tristan et Yseult." I became interested in Arthurian literature when I read "The Mists of Avalon," but I really started liking it when I had a French lit class. When I was in European lit, my professor (*smirk*) let me teach the class French medieval literature because he knew I loved it so much, and I learned all sorts of things preparing for that presentati n.

My interest in archaeology accrued me several-to-many books on digs concerning the "places" associated with Arthur. Which made me wonder how they knew...which sent me to Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regnum ...(have my own copy), and to the Welsh Triads, the Mabinogion and other source material. Since I keep trying to peel back the layer to find the original ideas, I needed to study the people whose tradition carried the story with them. Aha! The Kelts! And so on. I have Idylls of the King, Once and Future King(disliked it), Le Morte D'Arthur, and all the other popular modern permutations including Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court I have no medieval texts in the original languages but I do have Tolkien's Sir Gawain and the Green Knight plus translations of Perlevaus, Tristram and Iseult, Eric and Enid plus a whole bunch of others...

Somebody should make "The Mists of Avalon" into a movie. Women would flock to it in droves. (Yes, I've read the book. It was actually required reading in an Arthurian Legends course I took...and I did like it.) But please. No Kevin Costner as Arthur or Lancelot (or Richard Gere, either). Sean Connery is great, but too old (sorry). But more importantly, since this is a feminist retelling, who would play Morgan Le Fay, evil sorceress cum revisionist legend heroine?

Interesting thoughts proposed here. It would make a spectacular movie with special effects and the *right* performers. British, preferably. Cannot think on anyone off hand - but needs be a tall verile sort (not, I think, despite my adoration for him, Colin Firth!) Let me think about that...Not Vanessa Redgrave in any part of it...like Connery, she would be splendid but too old for the role. Gonna read it again and see who I can imagine in the roles...Just what I needed! Another excuse to read the bo k! (I brought mine on a garage sale table for $1 and I think it was unused when I bought it....one of the best bargains I ever found!) Kevin should stay with baseball and wolf themes...!

I never thought of it being made into a movie, and I hope Hollywood doesn't, because I'm sure they'd ruin the whole thing. I don't recall any visions of actors coming to mind when I read the descriptions of the characters. I think Sophie Marceau would perhaps be a good Morgaine, but I don't know that the Morgaine character should be splendidly beautiful. If they did it, I would almost want them to do it with a lot of non-star actors (at least who aren't stars in the US,) so that there would be a better chance of having a quality film rather than a silly piece of oversexed fluff.

I think it should be done in Britain with british actors and personnel. Nothing coming out of Hollywood would seem appropriate it seems to me...! Morgaine should be enchanting enough to lure Arthur into her bed...ah, but that was the other version...not this one. She should probably be "nice" looking but not dazzling!

I agree--no Americanized silliness in this film! If I wanted to find a role for Colin Firth, I think I'd give him a cameo as Gorlois--he's described as dark, elegant, and Roman-looking, so I think Colin might do.

And he could do evil and sensuously-driven very well (ask all those who Drool *grinning broadly*). You will love the way Mary Stewart handles him - very erotic, indeed! Never thought of CF as Gorlois...fascinating!

I can't imagine Gorlois as that erotic--I thought that's why Igraine went for Uther in the first place!

There is a scene where Merlin is dreaming and has visions of her trying on his crown as he stands behind her and cups her ...chest?!...one in each hand. Merlin is more than a little surprised that she continues her conversation as though this was nothing out of the ordinary...I can see it in my mind's eye through hers(mary Stewart's) and his (Merlin's)...you MUST get that trilogy!!!

Igraine was married to the guy Merlin sent to his death so Uther could come to her to conceive Arthur...she was not into Gorlois except remotely, as I recall. (...need to read those books again!)

Yes, Igraine wasn't crazy in love with Gorlois, but she thought he was a decent enough husband. (In "The Mists of Avalon," I mean.) But with Uther, she experienced true desire for the first time--it was more of an animalistic attraction.

Agreed... The way Mary Stewart saw it, they were in such "need" of each other (Uther and Igraine) that when Merlin came for the infant she did not protest his taking him away to raise. I know that visceral attraction, and it can be more powerful than the need for food and air, sometimes...but it can burn-out both parties involved...(I was much younger then...*smile*)

Isn't that sort of what happened in MoA? After the lusty attraction wore off, Igraine sort of resented Uther because they had nothing else on which to base their relationship.

Agreed... The way Mary Stewart saw it, they were in such "need" of each other (Uther and Igraine) that when Merlin came for the infant she did not protest his taking him away to raise. I know that visceral attraction, and it can be more powerful than the need for food and air, sometimes...but it can burn-out both parties involved...(I was much younger then...*smile*)

Yes, indeed it was! (We are smoking the Spring again with the duplicate split posts...very odd!)

I forgot to mention that at one time, I wrote out a whole list of names which I might give to my children, and some of them were from Arthurian legend. They were: Branwen Alysoun Avalon Laoise (pronounced "Lee-sha") Broc�liande �lysie I doubt very many people would be able to pronounce them, but I really can't imagine not giving my children literary names.

Broceliande...Ah yes! It fairly tumbles out of ones's mouth in a joyous profusion of syllables. it is most musical...

And wouldn't it just suit one of my pale children with glossy black hair? *smile*

Yes, indeed it was! (We are smoking the Spring again with the duplicate split posts...very odd!)

Um...Yes *grin* It most surely would!

What did you think of the most recent version of "Merlin" that was on last year (I think)? I liked the special effects, and Miranda Richardson was pretty interesting as Queen Mab, but I'm not sure about the other characters. Some were good and some were not.

Broceliande...Ah yes! It fairly tumbles out of ones's mouth in a joyous profusion of syllables. it is most musical...

(there is a nasty echo in here and I am not doing it...!) I was hoping for a much more "meaty" version of the story than we got, but I was happy to see it at all. I liked the actor who was Merlin and MR as Queen Mab...it is a little vague now in my mind. They took liberties, of course, but who has not, including Geoffrey of Monmouth!

I only recently found out (from reading Bernard Cornwell's introduction) that the French added the character of Lancelot and changed the story so that Arthur and Guenevere didn't have children! I was astonished! Did Geoffrey of Monmouth write "Historia Regum Brittaniae"? I remember that was on my list of source materials for Arthurian legend when I taught my European lit class French medieval literature, but I can't remember if he was the person who wrote it.

He (GoM) did, indeed, and my copy is right beside me.

Actually, the Welsh/Brithonic Arthur (Dux Bellorum) and his adventures were of a much cruder sort - not much civilization in the 400's AD. Marie de France was the first one to write chivalric stuff concerning Arthur. Eleanor of Aquataine continued the fashion and it has never been the same. More and more ladies and deeds and holy grails and loathsome trolls and Fisher Kings and loads more knights were added. Malory wrote them down and now we each have a copy! Legends of Teutonic origin blend in from ime to time...it is a very interwoven tapestry, and perhaps that is why it continues to fascinate. In the original Welsh trilogies, there were three Gwennies...none had children - even in the earliest times. She was barren - thus setting up the contest between his heir and illegimate incestuous son...Doomed!

Hmm, in "Guenevere, Queen of the Summer Country," she had a son, Amir, who went along with his father to a battle when he was about seven, and he was killed by a Saxon. This set up the whole conflict between Guenevere and Arthur--she blamed him for taking her son along, and she left him, leaving him easy prey for a scheming Morgan who seduced him and got pregnant with Mordred. In another book, which I looked at but didn't actually read, she and Arthur had three sons, and I think they all died before adulthood.

Let me check Norma Lorre Goodrick's book which is a total bibliography but written in readable form....my eyes are getting tired and so are my fingers...might I do this in the morning when I am fresher?! I have several sources to check.

Do it whenever you can--I'm about to turn in for the night myself!

Tomorrow!!! I am most interested in the evolution of Guinnie, myself. If I do not speak to you again before you close out, G'night Amy!!!

Sam Neill (an Australian actor) played Merlin. I think he's terrific. Miranda Richardson might make an interesting Morgan/Morgaine. As for Colin Firth as Uther--probably a natural--yet another cuckold role (but he keeps working).

Of course, I meant Gorlois instead of Uther.

...Just as long as they keep the Feinnes brothers out of it. The Morgan, Morgause, Morgaine, character would be a really interesting choice for Miranda Richardson. Yes! Sam Neill - loved him, but he was not my Merlin for some reason. Arthur, perhaps...but not Merlin.

Uh, Marcia--Morgaine and Morgause were two different people. Morgause was Igraine's sister, remember? I like Sam Neill as an actor, but I agree that he's not quite what I had envisioned for Merlin. I thought the guy who played Merlin in "Excalibur" (which was a pretty rotten movie, but I thought it was the coolest thing in the world when I was 5--especially where the crows are pecking out the eyes of the knights hanging from the tree,) was pretty good, and more like how I envisioned Merlin. He'd have to be someone very distinguished, very English, and preferably have "Sir" in front of his name.

They get lost in the translations from book to book. Since I do not have a source book on the Morgan / Morgaine character, I cannot definitively speak on this (gotta get out all those years of notes I took), but I have seen authors use the three names interchangeably...which is quite odd. I guess they could no decide who was a sister and who was a daughter as regards Igraine. Will check further in my texts to see what they say. (Some of these characters were added to the mix by later authors, and it g ts very confusing.) Excalibur was a pretty rotten movie...like a nightmare! Yes, Merlin should have distinguished bearing and indefinite age...something other-worldly, as well, would help.

I am still hunting for Morgause, but found this http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/origins/arthur.html Origins of Arthurian Legend Was Arthur Myth or Man? That's a question we can't answer with certainty, but we can guess that Arthur is a blend of Fact and Fantasy. According to Geoffrey Asche, the historical figure from whom Arthurian legend sprang may have been a fifth century warrior king called Riothamus. Written references to Arthurian-type figures begin with the work of Gildas, a sixth-century monk who wrote De Excidio Britanniae ("Concerning the Ruin of Britain"). Gildas' lurid description of battle against the Saxons culminates with the British "remnants" rallying behind a man called Ambrosius Aurelianus. Nennius, a Welsh monk who wrote around the year 800, was the first to refer to Arthur by that now-familiar name. In his Historia Brittonum, Nennius lists Arthur's twelve great victories over the Saxons, finishing with the triumph at Mount Badon. Mordred's role in Arthurian legend may also begin with Nennius, who mentions a son of Arthur, killed by his father. By the twelfth century, the legend of King Arthur had become very popular. William of Malmesbury wrote in Gesta Regum Anglorum of Arthur's prowess as a warrior. This is a dressed-up version of the tales of Nennius and Gildas with one vital variation: in this tale, Arthur's role appears to be not that of overlord, but of general. Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae appeared about the same time as Malmesbury's work. Geoffrey claimed his story came from an ancient book handed to him by the Archdeacon of Oxford. The existence of such a book cannot be disproved, but it is entirely likely that Geoffrey's fantastic story came from a compilation of contemporary romantic tales and his own inventive imagination. A number of Welsh manuscripts dated to this period also deal with Arthurian legend. (The stories themselves, however, may be even older.) Culhwch and Olwen details the exploits of Arthur and his company, while the Triads of the Isle of Britain lend us a tantalizing glimpse of stories lost to us.

For a little glimpse into the pronunciation of things Brythonic, Culhwch is pronounced KILL'hooock

Here's what it says about Morgause in "British and Irish Mythology" by John and Caitlin Matthews: The second child of Gorlois of Cornwall and Igerna. She married King Lot of Orkney by whom she had Gawain, Gaheris, Agravaine, and Gareth. Her fifth child, Mordred, was the result of her incestuous union with her half-brother, Arthur. She had a dark reputation, much like that of her sister, Morgan le Fay, and eventually perished at the hands of her own son Gaheris, who caught her in bed with Lamorack, son of the Orkney clan's greatest enemy, King Pellinore. I had never heard that she was the mother of Mordred--I always thought it was Morgaine--but that's what the book says.

I think the three names for her are just from different sources...French, Brythonic and a collection of others which ended up as the English tradition. Morgan / Morgause / Morgaine was the 1/2 sister of Arthur whom she seduced and produced Mordred - something Merlin knew about immediately, but Arthur did not for years...! Your book is correct!

Read Mary Stewart - she casts the figures in solid stuff then footnotes the whole thing.

But the book also casts Morgaine as an entirely different person: Daughter of Gorlois of Cornwall and Igerna, half-sister to King Arthur, mother of Owain/Uwain by Uriens of Gore. According to Malory, Morgan was "put to school in a nunnery, where she learned great sorcery." She becomes Arthur's most implacable enemy, attempting by means of magic to destroy him and the Round Table Fellowship. She was responsible for stealing the sword Excalibur and when this was recovered, succeeded in losing forever the scabbard which protected its wearer from all wounds. To the writers of medieval romances of Arthur, she was no more than a sorceress behind her stands the figure of the ancient Celtic battle-goddess the Morrighan. Vestiges of this earlier identity remain embedded in the character as we now have it, such as her appearance with two other shadowy queens on the ship which takes Arthur to Avalon at the end of his days. In Geoffery of Monmouth's poem the "Vita Merlini" she is described as ruling over a magical kingdom with her twelve sisters, while in later medieval romances such as "Huon of Bordeaux" she has become Fata Morgana, the Queen of Faery, who steals away mortal men to be her lovers. In more recent times her name has become synonymous with witchcraft, although there are again signs that she is becoming restored as a more ancient and powerful figure more in accordance with her origins. She may also be identifi d with Modron, another aspect of the Celtic Mother Goddess.

Interesting, Indeed! Igerna and Ygraine and Igraine are just different spellings of her mother. It seems to me that she is the same - just in different guises. Must I rush you my own tattered-beyond-belief copies of Mary Stewart's trilogy? It is the best you will ever read about it - even better, but different from Mists of Avalon. Trust me on this, and you will have a better picture of her and her sisters.

Bradley obviously thinks of Morgaine as separate from Morgan - which is her right as a fiction writer...This is entitled "Morgain" also known as Morgan Le Fay. I am the half sister of the Great king Arthur Pendragon. History claims I am a witch. On this page I would like to show you another side of my personality. I often am characterised as an evil witch, whose only goal is to ruin Arthur's reign. The only one who really understood me is Marion Bradley. Her book, The Mists of Avalon, is a reliable source of information on my family-history. In this book she tells the true story about me and the other women around Arthur. These women, Igraine (our mother), Morgause (my aunt), Vivian (my aunt and Lady of the Lake) and me, of course, are the main characters in the book. I am not an evil witch, but a priestess of the Goddess. Being a priestess, I have great knowledge of herbs and magic; I think it is for this reason that people believe I am a witch. It was during my education that faith (or the Goddess?) brought us together. http://www.missgien.net/morgaine/morgaine.html

Morgause Wife and widow of 'King Lot of Lothian and Orkney'. Mother of 'Gawain' (See Gawain), 'Agravain' (See Agravain), 'Gaheris' (See Gaheris), 'Gareth' (See Gareth). Half-sister of 'Arthur' as the second daughter of 'Igraine' (See Igraine) and 'Gerlois' (See Gerlois). Sister of 'Morgan le Fay' (See Morgan le Fay) and 'Elaine of Garlot' (See Elaine of Garlot). It is suggested in some of the later works that Morgause may have been the mother of 'Clarisant' (See Clarisant), although prophecies were made pertaining to the fact that Morgause was thought to have had five children. As she is known to have conceived 'Mordred' (See Mordred) by Arthur who was under an enchantment by Morgan le Fay it has been suggested that Mordred rather than Clarisant is the fifth child. Yet there is the possibility that the fifth could be 'Soredamor'. Reputed to have been the lover of 'Lamorack de Galles' (See Lamorak). She was killed by her own son Gaheris when she was discovered with Lamorack. Morgause, together with her four sons, and a small army of soldiers is described in some legends as having gone to make peace with Arthur, carrying a flag of truce, despite her husband's previous opposition to Arthur being ruler of Britain. She is said to have begged forgiveness, promising the loyalty of her sons and herself to the royal household. Her sons were granted Arthur's protection, trained in the craft and arms and Knighted by Arthur himself. Some legends indicate that the sealing of this bargain with a kiss passed between the King and Morgause is one of her own sacrifice to him. Arthur, unaware of his relationship to her family, believing himself to be of the 'Ector de Sauvage's' (See Ector de Sauvage) family, is unaware of what such an involvement in a relationship with Morgause would mean. Later versions of the legends play upon this fact when developing the enchantment that befalls Arthur leading to the conception of Mordred. In some legends she becomes Arthur's mistress before his involvement with 'Guinevere' (See Guinevere). He is said to suffer with the darkest dreams whilst he is with her. 'Kay' (See Kay) summons 'Merlin' (See Merlin) as Arthur grows steadily weaker. He learns the truth, that his mistress is also his half-sister. Merlin prophecies that the son conceived from their union will one day attempt to usurp him, and destroy all that he achieves during his reign. Despite his attempts to find Morgause and his desire to kill her, a child is born on the first day of May, and Arthur's fate it seems is sealed. Arthur hoped to find the child by ordering all those born on this day to be found and brought to his court. The babes were placed in a boat and cast out to sea to be destroyed, as Arthur hoped that this would ensure that the child conceived with Morgause would be killed. Of course his illegitimate son survives and returns to revenge his own abandonment and to destroy the King and the Knights of the Round Table http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/arthuriana2z/m.htm#MORG

I am so confused....! This is the most complete listing of all things Arthurian from anywhere. It is worth spending time there: http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/arthuriana2z/index.htm

I'm confused too--I guess it's because most of the books I've read have Igraine and Morgause as sisters (if Morgause appears in the story at all,) and Morgaine (whom I thought was the same person as Morgan le Fay,) as the daughter of Igraine and Gorlois and the mother of Mordred. Every movie I've seen, every book I've read has Morgaine as the mother of Mordred! I think I might email my Shakespeare professor, who also knows a lot about King Arthur, and see if she has any input on the subject.

Ah yes...good idea. Do ask her...and say hi! for me...*grin* I am surrounded by "source books" on things Arthurian, and apparently a lot is up for interpretation since it was oral tradition of the Bards which kept it alive ... and each Bard added something of his own to the story. I am surprised we can trace it as well as we can at this remove!

Legends can be molded and remolded to fit the whims of the storyteller.

Sorry, Marcia. I'd kind of envisioned Ralph Fiennes as Arthur and Joseph as Sir Launcelot Du Lac. ;))))))))))))))) (just kidding!!!!!)

True...and the whole cloth from which Arthuriana is derived is so flimsy that almost any liberty can be taken with it without causing alarm or even eliciting negatitive comments. Unfortunately, at this far remove it will almost be impossible to recover anything of the original tales (though that Arthurian A-Z URL is pretty thorough). It is also impossible to tell where the real Arthur stops and the legend begins. Like Stonehenge and other parts of our treasured past, we interpret them for our times and needs - forget about the real details!

JOHN! LOL...I figured someone might say that...!

I'm still trying to figure out just where the hell "Malagant" in First Knight (dreadful movie, but love both Connery and Julia Ormond) came from. Oh, well, expect anything from a director who casts Richard Gere as a kung-fu fighting Launcelot.

There is a 4th book about Arthur after the Last enchantment called "The Wicked Day." It is about Mordred growing up and finaly meeting his father who claims him and gives him a seat at the roundtable. It goes up to the Arthur's last battle which is against Mordred. It names Morgause as Mordred's mother.

There are actually 5 books in the series...and I have them all well worn. I thought I had posted as synopsis of The Wicked Day...but cannot find it..will tomorrow if I cannot find it above. Melwas aka 'Meleagraunce', 'Meliagrance', 'Meleagant', 'King of the Summer Country', (See Summer Country). Also 'Melwas, Prince of Death' and 'Melwas, Princely Youth'. Reputed to have been an evil man, and a terrifying Knight who captured 'Guinevere' (See Guinevere) taking her to his own land where she was rescued in the earliest Arthurian romance legends by 'Arthur' (See Arthur), but later it was 'Lancelot' (See Lancelot) who was the hero and victor over Melwas (who appears to have disliked Arthur intensely, determining to war with him). The depiction of Arthur as the hero is included in the work entitled 'The Life of St Gildas' (See Gildas). 'Chr�tien de Troyes' (See Chr�tien de Troyes) depicts Lancelot as a hero, and a man so in love with Guinevere that in order to save her he is prepared to travel to where she is imprisoned in a cart, a mode of transport utilised for criminals normally. Lancelot is described as having to cross the 'Sword-Bridge' (See Sword-Bridge) to reach Guinevere. Melwas of the Otherworld (See Otherworld) later became Sir Meleagraunce in the later developments of the Grail romances, and changed from a King to a Knight, but still defeated despite all his best endeavours. According to the earlier account of the relationship of Arthur and Melwas, it was also written in the work entitled the 'Life of Caradoc', (See Caradoc) that mediation between the feuding kings was attempted to achieve peace. This process could not have been conducted by Caradoc himself as is often suggested as he was a Welsh saint of the twelfth-century, a completely different time period to the historical Arthur. The romances of the medieval period the French 'Vulgate Cycle' became a major influence on all later developments of the story, some of which solicit the help of 'Taliesin' (See Taliesin) and also 'Galahad' (See Galahad) to secure the Queen's release.

O.K. so the mysterious Malagant did appear--as several other close, but no cigar names--at least in legend, but did he kill Arthur in any of your books, as he did in First Knight? I always thought that Mordred (how appropriately named) did...

Marcia: re your second to last paragraph post 56 "historical Arthur." I am under the impression that the "historical Arthur" is a perhaps, not a certainty, despite a strange grave in Glastonbury.

I wish I were descended from a "historical Beowulf." Then I could proudly tell people "I'm a Geat!"

I have an interesting Beowulf file I just might send you one of these days...I am not sure if you are old enough to read it...*grin* All of these Arthurian names are so old that they have endured many different spellings. ONLY Mordred killed Arthur - it had to be that way to complete the tragedy unfolding. Hey, I'll call you Johnlemagne anytime you wish...'cause I think you are!

Historical Arthur comes from the West Cadbury (nothing to do with chocolate) hillfort excavations and their results. A Castrum, or fortified hill fort was found to have been there in the 400's AD and had the fortified entrances and exits. Only such a fort could have been held by a Dux Bellorum or Duke of Battles - most likely Arthur's title. There is also some evidence that someone named similarly to Arthur existed then...perhaps the legend is an amalgam of the two! There was a ready supply of sling s ones in the nearby stream...I have driven by it several times on the way to Glastonbury...a lovely ruin, but not Arthurian, by any means! No more than Stonehenge was Druidic (Yeesh!)

That's evidence that there was a Dux Bellorum...not necessarily that Arthur actually existed. I know there are references in stone to "Arthurus" and "Arthurius" just as there were shrines to Kilroy everywhere in World War II, but nobody actually met him, either. It would be cool to think Arthur actually existed--but the legend is too fantastic, just like I would love to think Beowulf existed--but if that means Grendel (and Grendel's mother) did also, I'm going to have a nightmare!

I have come across some even more confusing information--I was looking in Wolfram von Eschenbach's "Parzival" to see what I could find, and it says in there that Arthur's sister (a full sister, not half) was named Sangive, and she married Lot and had Gawain. It also lists Arthur's mother as Arnive, which I suppose could be a variant of Igraine, and says that Arthur and Ginover (as it is spelled here) had a son named Ilinot who was killed in service to his lady Kanadic. I can't find any reference in here to a Morgaine, Morgause, or Mordred character, except there is a character called Terdelaschoye who is a fairy and "closely associated with fata morgana." I think the farther this story got away from England, the crazier it got!

Wow.

You said it all, Amy, when you said the farther away from England this story got the crazier (and more fantastic) it became. Each tradition added their own particular nasty beasts to conquer, more ladies in convoluted relationships with the main characters - some made up just for the sake of drama... John, I think there was not as much doodling at the time of Arthur as there was at the time of Kilroy, simply because the implements hard enough to scribe stone were not readily available to just anybody...and the stones on which he is mentioned are the sort of memorial stones which take a lot of work and thought. It is still up for grabs - he is probably a compilation of wishful thinking, legend and two or three real Dukes of Battle (my guess)

I do love the fact that they were doodling with a chisel--and in Latin.

During Roman rule in Britain there was an apparent lack of things to do at Hadrian's wall. There is more chisled graffiti there than anywhere else I can think of in that time period.

...and, as you point out...it is in perfectly good Latin. How scholarly it makes it all seem!

Illegitimi non tatum carborundum.

There's supposedly a graffity in the Hagia Sofia in nordic runes, spelling "Halfdan was here".

Isn't that funny--we look at graffiti now and say, "Oh, look what that idiot did!" But if someone did it 1000 years ago in Latin or Nordic, we say, "Isn't that interesting?!?"

Oh, Indeed! But the sentiments expressed are often the same - whoever was here, and so-and-so cheats at cards...! Nothing changes =)

They saved some of the russian graffitis in Berlin's Reichstag when it was renovated. Many of them where removed, some read like "Adolf I f***ed your mother" e.g. Many germans don't like it that they weren't removed totally but I think it's part of our history and this should be conserved. When I visited a rokoko-chinoise pagoda in Kassel, there were graffitis from soldiers looking for women after WW II. If they will ever be removed by renovation I hope they at least photograph the whole stuff...graffitis can be very interesting, historically...

Indeed - graffiti served as the local bulletin board before such things were set up formally. It is a little window on the world in which the writer lived at the time. Remember to date your graffiti so future generations will know exactly to what you are referring !

I talked to my esteemed Shakespeare professor about the Morgaine/Morgause question, and she said that they are indeed two different people, and that Morgaine is indeed the mother of Mordred. She said that she considers Malory to be the authority on these matters and when there is any question, he's the text to which to refer. Does that help?

Yes, it does help. Malory is highly suspect in some circles, but when you are dealing with these legends where they change from day to day and author to author, her authority is as valid as any. The Welsh used her as a triad of the same woman - three faces of Morgan/Morgause/Morgaine See what you think when you read Mary Stewart and read her references on the subject. This is a subject with no "correct" answers!

I know--that's what my professor said. She said that it's hard to argue about these things, since there are no right or wrong answers. It's very interesting to see what different modern authors do with the legends, in some cases creating entirely new versions of the myths.

...which leads newbies to trust the first one they read and say that is the true version. It is well to read widely in Aruthuriana. I prefer Mary Stewart's version simply because it is such a good read. Much better than TS White (who I disliked intensely for making Merlin into an old fool) and far more readable than Malory.

I think the adventures themselves of the knights are told best by Malory. Women--except for Morgan, who is important, if one-dimensional in her evil--are slighted, of course, in his versions: as damsels in distress, Guinevere as both the embodiment of Mother Mary (which no flesh and blood woman can live up to) and as the sex object of contention between Artie and Lance, and even Igraine is nothing more than a vessel for Arthur's birth. Thus, Bradley was a welcome change of pace although it is a little d stracting seeing Morgan/Morgaine go from w(b)itch to heroine and Guinevere to villainess. Still, a well-written story.

I don't think Morgaine was entirely likeable in MoA--I liked her at the beginning, but then when she married Uriens (I think it was) I started seeing the bad side of her coming out after all. I thought, "Morgaine, you're screwing up!" I actually liked the Guenevere character in that book, because she tried so hard to be perfect, but when it came to Lancelot, she just couldn't do it. However, being a hypocrite wasn't very becoming to her...

After all, I think Morgaine was just as dogmatic about her beliefs as Guenevere was, it's just that Bradley presented them in two entirely different lights so that I didn't even notice that at first.

Good point. Christianity was presented as THE ENEMY, which villainized Guinevere (I don't remember the Gaelic-like spelling Bradley used) and to a lesser extent, Arthur himself.

You will be interested in how Merlin views God in Mary Stewart's books - I think she did the best job of walking the theological tightrope. John, I just might have to lend you my copies of her books! I know you would enjoy it - all from Merlin's viewpoint, and Frank liked it as did David - and David is a non-reader!

I've read Stewart. Required in the course I took.

But unlike you, I liked White...it was "Camelot" I couldn't stomach.

Perhaps that was my problem. Camelot (and not a Kennedy fan, either, but don't tell anybody!)...yeesh! You must have had a very good course - who taught it? I am more than a little pleased that Stewart was required reading. Guess you can tell that I loved her version...every last word of it - would not have changed anything. Your opinion?

I'm nearly halfway through "The Crystal Cave," and I must confess that I'm not enjoying Stewart's style too much. She goes into long descriptions of places and things, but they don't really function in the story. I find myself saying "Come on already!" because sometimes the minute descriptions hold up the flow of the story.

I wish my university had a course in Arthurian literature! Maybe I'll ask around and see if anyone would like to create one.

I'm nearly halfway through "The Crystal Cave," and I must confess that I'm not enjoying Stewart's style too much. She goes into long descriptions of places and things, but they don't really function in the story. I find myself saying "Come on already!" because sometimes the minute descriptions hold up the flow of the story.

Ok, she is laying the ground work for the rest of the story. The Hollow Hills has most of the great magic in it. Big time and I am getting chills thinking about scenes therein. She paints a very detailed picture, but you are not left wanting when she is finished...it is all very good stuff. I guess that is what draws me back each time...I do not want it to end!

Well, I thought that might be the case--since Merlin is just a kid and doesn't even understand the magic he has within himself, it's kind of difficult to have really spectacular magical scenes. I'm being patient, really!

I have a geode which I cal The Crystal Cave because it is just as I imagined him crawling into for his blinging visions. I thought I had bad headaches on occasion, but the ones he must have had were incredible. As he says, the Gods exact a price for letting you have these gifts. Has Ambrosius come into the story yet (other than a brief mention at the beginning?)

Yes, he's staying at Ambrosius' palace right now. Is Ambrosius' brother Uther THE Uther Pendragon? I thought he was younger than Merlin.

Ooooh...its gonna get really good really soon now...! Yes, Ambrosius is Uther Pendragon's brother....that is all I can say right now. Do not want to give away anything, but keep reading. I am all excitement!!

That would make Ambrosius Arthur's uncle, eventually...

That it would. I found Stewart an acquired taste, much like Faulkner for exactly the same reason Amy mentions. But it was my professor (David Miller, who has published several articles on the "different" Lancelots of different authors) who told me to be patient and it would pay off--and I found he was right. Being a longtime radio and television news writer, I'm kind of a get to the point person, which is one of the reasons I love Hemingway. And although Stewart's painstaking descriptions sometimes se med perhaps too detailed, at least she is sticking to the point and not meandering in her style. Certainly her Merlin voice does have a propensity towards purple prose. White, on the other hand makes me laugh. I love his description of Pellinore nearly killing Arthur and (a third-person) Merlin having to save his butt. Very few pieces of literature make me laugh out loud, but Twain's "The Cat and the Painkiller" chapter of Tom Sawyer and White's narrative of Pellinore kicking Arthur's arse both do.

A knight and his men return to their castle after a long hard day of fighting. "How are we faring?" asks the king. "Sire," replies the knight, "I have been robbing and pillaging on your behalf all day, burning the towns of your enemies in the west." "What?!" shrieks the king. "I don't have any enemies to the west!" "Oh," says the knight. "Well, you do now."

LOL John, If that is from White, I'm gonna read him again. I tend to worship whatever MS wrote about Merlin and regard what is in her stories as the "true" version. Hers is a serious style and no fooling around...and I judge all others by her criteria. They all fall short for me, but I shall read White (own it, actually) again and give it a fair chance. btw, David Miller should have taught a good course...did he?! (Don't have to answer that, of course.)

That's not from White. That's simply a joke I'm relaying.

Miller was terrific. He also said the same thing Amy's prof did. When in doubt, use Malory as the standard.

I guess...using Malory...but I am a purist and like to get as close to the original as possible - that is why I did 5 years of Keltic studies trying to ferret out the truth behind the embellishments.

I love the way White treats the entire Arthur-Pellinore relationship. While most of the knights are critical of Pellinore and think he's daft for always going off to fight the dragon, Arthur always stands behind Pellinore. But there are two other dynamics in the writing. One, Arthur knows that Pellinore is his physical superior, and two, Arthur is just a wee bit privately patronizing of Pellinore and you can read it, although Arthur is careful to hide it. But to me, "Camelot" ruined White. The though of a singing, dancing Arthur, Lancelot, or Merlin, makes me shudder.

It's difficult to know what the "original" and the "truth behind the embellishments" are, because the Celts largely handed it down as oral stories and Malory's was the first extensive written chronicle of the legend.

And a vacant but gorgeous Goulet was the nasty icing on the whole mess. Yes, I recall Pellinore more vividly than almost any other character. White's Arthur seemed to me to be resigned to being the "nice guy" of the tale, but not necessarily the most effective or happiest. Was there something father-son in the Pellinore-Arthur relationship? He was Indeed, a teeny bit patronizing, but in such a way that Pellinore would never have detected it, I think...

Malory cut his characters out of whole cloth felted together out of Welsh, French and Teutonic sources...most unusual. Perhhaps it could be thought of as an anthology in that way...! (You accessment of the difficulties of determining the original sources is what keeps me at it...I still chase down sources and the internet has made the chore much more immediate. You would not believe the bookmarks...!!!)

To a certain extent, I don't think it matters what the truth is behind the embellishments. All in all, the Arthurian legends are a very dynamic and exciting set of stories, but just that--stories. Their power lies in the fact that they can be changed and rearranged without losing any of their integrity (except, of course, in the case of "Camelot.") I find even bad versions of the Arthur story fascinating, because they each take a slightly different view of the legend. Even the Monty Python movie is on of my all-time faves!

Was that an African swallow???!!!

One must know these things when one is King...*giggle* My art teacher once said that people had been telling him about how wonderful "The Holy Grail" was, and reciting parts for him, and so when he finally saw it, he was disappointed because he thought the people reciting it was funnier than the actual movie! In my English department, you'd better have the whole thing memorized or you can't even get into a conversation!

One of the things of which my son is most proud is that his Mom introduced him to Monty Python...and that was one of their best efforts. (The Geologists all have it memorized, also!)

Hooray! I knew geology was my lost career for a reason! I guess they recite when they're crawling around in caves, eh?

...and around the camp fires at night...(mine, as well!) They can also do a mean version of "I'm a Lumberjack..."

That's funny, because all my geology teacher seemed to know was "Rocky Mountain High" and other crappy, geology related tunes like that! *giggle*

Egad!!! Well, I hung with the grad students and the young profs when David (son)was pursuing his degrees. That'll keep you young better than hanging with the full professors who tend to be tedious or lecherous or both...*grin* I know of which I speak! (Rocky Mountain High??!! Bleah!)

You can go farther than that. John Denver (ugh)!

BTW, grad students and young profs are no less lecherous than the full tenured variety. It's just that most of the younger academics don't need to use their jobs to get laid.

When Stephanie drove me to Denver last year we kept hearing John singing in our heads, but nothing on the radio the entire time we were in the state ( about a week)...they must know something...!)

Very true--although I think the difference is that universities wouldn't hesitate to fire someone like myself, whereas a tenured professor might get to talk his/her way out of the situation...good grief, how do we keep ending up on this subject? This professor with bad taste in music wasn't a letch, either--he was very funny. He had a shirt that said "A professor is someone who talks in other people's sleep," and when we were talking when he was trying to talk, he's say, "Guys, it's 'Miller Time'" (Miller was his last name.)

...John, this is true about lechery not being just for the aged, but it is so much more becoming on them when they are young that it is a grace instead of a fault...!

and lest anyone wonder...it did not work with me, fortunately...the getting laid part...I just laughed graciously and ducked under their arms pinioning me in the corner. Never lost a friend that way nor made an enemy and kept my integrity intact at the same time - not all that easy...!

Yech! If any of my students pinioned me in the corner, I'd kick him in the ballocks!

How much more Arthurian can you get than lechery and debauchery and lusting after someone else's wife/husband/SO ??? Merlin was their tenured professor...!

It was not the students pinioning me in the corner - it was the silver-haired gentlemen in the expensive suits or the natty tweeds visiting from another university which usually did it...! I suppose I should have been flattered, but I was just amused that they thought I was one of the few women in the place who could talk intelligently with them when they were sober and still looked good when they were slightly buzzed!

God help me! I hope I have an extraordinarily intimidating professor husband then to keep the roving hands of lecherous old coots off of me!

I did it just fine...professors by nature are a tiny bit timid when faced with a female of intelligence and not of student age...one who might even be considered an equal. As I said, a sense of humor is a must, and I never told my ex about it.

Amy, if you want a guy like you described, you will end up with a replica of the one I am currently trying to come to terms with....You really do not want that!

You're probably right--but there are some things in life that you just have to experience to believe! What I really want is a husband to fuss over me, who "might not beteem the winds of heaven/Visit her face too roughly." I hate being fussed over for the most part, but when certain men do it...ah! I love it!

Sorry to burst into "Hamlet" there for a moment!

...i know...I truly Know! It makes one feel like a queen and blessed in all things...I guess to get one, there must be compromises and take some things one wishes she did not have to do...(Lovely to see Hamlet - Olivier, of course )

Back to Arthurian business, I'm still reading "The Crystal Cave" and I'm starting to get annoyed at how easily Merlin manages to wiggle out of the stickiest of situations! It's becoming like those old-time chapter plays, where there's a cliffhanger at the end of each week, where you think there's no way the hero is going to get out of this one, and he somehow manages to! I guess James Bond movies are the same way...but not what I'd expect from a book about Merlin!

Give him a chance - he pays for his "easy escapes" in most original ways...!

If you make it through half of The Hollow Hills and are still sick of it, then I will figure you to be the sort who does not like Mary Stewart, but I think she did a GREAT job, and you will too, it you allow her to get her story told.

BTW, have you ever read the source book for Merlin: Vita Merlini???

Marcia, this reminds me of you trying to sell me on the "virtues" of Brussels sprouts. It doesn't matter if I ever go to England, I will never order them by choice and will never again consume them by will. They will have to be forced down my gullet.

OK, she can stop reading now... I just would hate for people to miss out on something fantastic (IMHO) just because of some preconcieved notion...I shall shut up and get out of the selling mode - I am obviously very poor at it!

no, just a tad too evangelistic in tone...

Understood. (Merlin was like that in the earliest references to him...)

The truth is I'm probably too evangelistic about boxing because of its (rightly deserved) poor image, and because I know another side that unfortunately hasn't reared it's beautiful head too much lately.

It does when the Olympics come around. Unfortunately, they do not cover collegiate boxing enough...if at all. I really do understand and I appreciate your passion for the game. Do not change one iota, please! We need enthusiasm!

I will keep reading--once a friend and I made a bet that if I would read Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, then she would wear a dress, and after about 2 1/2 books, I told her I gave up. And believe me, they were a lot worse than Mary Stewart! I think I can stick it out for at least the rest of this book...

ok...Anne Rice is far too weird...

And her characters are so tedious! They're all rich and handsome and lecherous--I can only take so much of that before I think, "Okay, is there someone in this story who doesn't look like a Botticelli painting?" Geez Louise! After two books, I didn't care what happened to any of the characters anymore! I think she should have stopped at one book!

I think that is what gets to me, as well, tho I know someone who read her books. Not sure of his opinion - we did not discuss it, but there are those out there...I am sure I read stuff which would bore him, too.

Anne Rice is making money hand over fist--and not one dollar of it was once mine!

Nor mine...we agree!!!

Me too! We all agree!

Hmmm...has anyone beside me been to Tintagel, South Cadbury Hillfort ("camelot"), Glastonbury and the places in Cornwall with Arthurian connections?

Good grief, Marcia, the farthest I've ever been from home was New York City!

...at your age, that was about the extent of my travels, as well =)

I think I'm a weirdo, though, because almost all of the other GAs have been to Europe, but not me. I don't even know that I want to go because the past few times I've traveled, I've had really bad anxiety attacks and had to go home.

If you are not adverse to medication - there are things you can take for the duration of the flight. That was my worst time - claustrophobic, dontcha know... I got over that by talking to a very charming British gentleman who needed an anonymous female to talk to...and I was it. A most pleasant way to spend a long flight...*smile*

Knowing you (as I do know you...), once you got there you would be so enraptured they could never keep you home again. That is the way it was with me...*sigh* But, that was another life time...

Oh, I hope so...at some point, I'm going to have to go to the Bodleian to look at Byron's manuscripts!

You just need someone in the seat beside you to distract you with his incredible eyes and sweet mouth and velvety colduroys...

Yes, I know...I shall have to tell you a little story about that sometime... And it isn't riding in an airplane that makes me anxious--it' just that when I'm away from home for more than a day or so, I start having this overwhelming feeling that I have to get home. It makes me nervous just thinking about it.

A slight case of agoraphobia? Not all that unusual, actually. You just need the right companion and enough interesting stuff to anticipate that home is just a place you have to go back to when you'd rather remain in the British Museum (me) or the Bodleian Library (both of us)...

How about the Victoria and Albert? I'd stay all month in the British Museum!

Oh, indeed! Yes! We stayed on Cromwell Road which runs right by the V&A...knew it well. There is so much to see and do in London - it is my all time favorite city. Wait'll you get into Westminster Abbey...! You'll need hours there, as well.

Did Wales exist then, or was it just a bunch of battling Celts and tree-hugging Picts?

The original Britons were the Welsh. Cymri, actually... Welsh is a name like "American Indian"

The Picts were the original Highlanders of Scotland before the Gaelic tribes got there. Do not confuse the two. I have spent a lot of time researching things like this...perhaps it deserves its own topic! The Picts were so thoroughly obliterated that only a few carved stones remain of their once-flourishing language and culture.

AnneH, I am telnetting which allows me to see what happened to your comments which I read briefly. It says they were censored and scribbled which means deleted. You did not do it...I cannot do it. How does this happen to so many of your posts?! You need a new ISP !

Since Anne's posts keep disappearing on us, she sent this comment via Email: Marcia - a fascinating book by C.S. Lewis called that Hideous Strength brings Merlin back to life in about 1950, its an extraordinary book but has some interesting ideas about all things Arthurian and gives some insights into what it was like in those times, woods, forests and all sorts of wild things in a wet, mistly land, little enclaves of Roman/British forts and small towns. You get the feel as Merlin speaks. Try it. Its most unusual.

The Picts were the original Highlanders of Scotland before the Gaelic tribes got there. Do not confuse the two. I have spent a lot of time researching things like this...perhaps it deserves its own topic! The Picts were so thoroughly obliterated that only a few carved stones remain of their once-flourishing language and culture.

Something is happening - I am overloading Spring, I guess. I did not post the above comment twice, and I do not know what deleted Anne's comments...!

Ah, it must be Morgan le Fay at work!

Must be! Who's the threat to her? Surely not I...

Hmm...any anti-pagans around here?

Curious - have not heard of that term...I imagine Jerry Falwell might fall into that category along with the rest of that ilk...(leaving that alone so I don't get stoned by the "true" believers...)

No wonder you've never heard of the term...I just made it up!

*lol* Are you sure you are not the little sister that I never had? I make up words all the time and put them in my fictionary.

My sister is going to start a campaign to put "monstrophic" in the dictionary--her own creation.

Good word! She can be in "our" family, as well =)

You got anthropologically technical without really answering my question. I've heard of the Cymri, but Wales (the country) didn't really exist then, nor did any "nation."

The Cymraeg from Cymru are a celtic people who displaced the original small-statured dark people who inhabited what is now Wales in about 500BCE. The small dark people were probably from the Iberian area. The Celts ruled Britain until the Romans arrived followed by the Anglo-Saxon-Jute tribes and the Danes. The Norman were the last.

Did those small-statured dark people have a name? Or were they eradicated like the Picts?

Technically, they did not have a "Wales" (Cambria to the Romans) until they got beaten back into their mountains. The Romans considered the land not worth the fight (just as they did the highlands of Scotland and the Picts) and left them that part of Britain. What the Romans could not tolerate was the Druids who held the country together with their religious faith. The Romans eventually slaughtered every last one of them in the Menai Straits between North Wales and the Isle of Anglesea - a holy island o the Druids.

No one has named them - in fact so little of their legacy remains that only anthropological differences in their bones is what separates them from the rest of the population. There was probably some interbreeding and there are still smallish dark (Caucasian)complected Welsh, but they tend to remain in the hills and cwms and not mingle in the rest of the world. Gypsy is sometimes attached to them, but it is not correct - from an entirely differect origin and very much earlier than the gypsies showed up o the record.

How did these dark people get to Wales from Iberia? Shipwrecks?

Migrated over the land bridge connecting Britain with the continent during the last ice age.

Oh, I always forget about that. I said "shipwrecks" because I was thinking of how the Black Irish came about.

Yes, but they also had large migrations. They were Celts as well as the red Irish were...just from different areas. You cannot get a thriving populace complete with myths and legends and culture from just shipwrecks, though they make interesting stories!

Yes, but you know what storytellers we Irish are, especially when we're in our cups!

No worse than the rest of the Celtic Bards. That is the way Merlin Emrys made his living - being a Bard - but you are not reading that one anymore....*sigh*

Sorry! I really shouldn't be reading anything at all, considering how much stuff I'm supposed to be doing... It's funny how many Arthurian books, at least those told from a first-person viewpoint, begin with, "Well, the bards tell it this way, but here's what really happened..."

Indeed! It is as though they were there are the inception and have the "only true version."

I guess the characters telling the stories didn't have much respect for the bards because they were paid to make people sound more important and brave than they really were--it reminds me of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" (again) and Sir Robin's minstrels! "And so they had to eat Sir Robin's minstrels...and there was much rejoicing..."

That is where the term "singing for your supper" came from - the bards travelled from estate or castle to castle trading news and stories for food - a sort of travelling periodical. Some go respect - but most were pretty pathetic, I gather! (Poor Sir Robin, I remember him well...)

Alas, I forgot poor Yorick!

Yorick was a bard? I thought he was a fool.

...a fellow of infinite jest...the king's Jester (which was not a fool but a person who brought wise and clever levity to conversations when they sot too contentious.

Alas, Poor Yorick...I knew him, Horatio. A fellow of infinite wit etc etc. John was responding to my all too often misquoted "I knew him well" Well was not in Shakepseare's dialogue.

infinite wisdom...it is late I should close the book!

I may be mistaken, but I think that was one of the many liberties Olivier took with Shakespeare when he committed Hamlet to film. I do know they should have fired the director (Olivier) and told the lead actor (Olivier) to stick to the script. He's was no Robin Williams, that one.

I have followed my own text version of Hamlet so carefully I have every passage he used and cut marked them well. It has been a very long time since I did any refreshing my memory in there - you could well be correct...but I loved his Hamlet...*sigh* (Of course he took liberties - it was not intended to be a literal version!)

hope this topic's not been evacuated... read much of the previous discussion, found it fascinating... read a few books on this topic, and was most impressed by goodrich's (which marcia, i think, referenced)... from what i know, goodrich is a respected historian, and it seems hard to dismiss her conclusions, radical though some of them may be... the matter of arthur's historicity i believe pretty firmly established, and her other points well worth consideration... mainly, (and i'm citing from memeory, and it's been a few years since i read her book, or anything else arthurian) the idea of arthur's kingdom being located to the north (being born, himself, in galloway, near the candida casa)... the idea of guinevere as a pictish princess, and lancelot (actually, according to goodrich, 'angus'- lancelot merely being a linguistic corruption from middle-french) being a pictish king... of the historic injustice done to the reputations of both (the alleged infidelity, a fabrication invented to entertain bored french courtiers)(who required, undoubtedly, a lot of entertaining)... and- maybe most interesting of all, to me, the idea that the geographic location of avalon was a small islet on the west coast of the isle of man... at any rate, would like to know your impressions of her conclusions... and would encourage anyone that hasn't read her book to do so (i found it magnificent)...

Aloha, Nick! Not vacated or evacuated by any means. It is one of my most favorite things to discuss (as you have seen.) My computer is surrounded by shelves containing all manner of Arthuriana from Idylls of the King to the most recent Archaeological books on Somerset (Glastonbury and South Cadbury Hillfort); including my favorite non-fiction by Goodrich and favorite historical fiction by Mary Stewart discussed above...and the infamous Geoffrey of Monmouth as well as Nennius. Interesting you discuss t e Picts, who are so elusive as to give me fits of frustration when I try to dig into their origins and culture. North of England-cum-Scotland is also the site for Vita Merlini so imo, it is most probable that some of the historical personages in this epic were native to the area. What conclusions have you come to as to the origin and roots of the Picts. Keltic or no? I would love to discuss this with you because we know so very little about them. Their language had no progenitors.

Oh yes, my opinions on the conclusions of Goodrich...There is nothing I can think of (it has been a few years) with which I disagree. Her work is so thoroughly footnoted and her sources so impeccable... There is no doubt she has compiled what there is to KNOW about these shadowy characters who have held our imaginations for these aeons.

yes, the picts rather haunt the imagination... though i've probably not researched the matter as thoroughly, i know what you mean re: the frustration... there's so little out there that i've seen, and much of what one can find is trivial or half-informed... (any sources you can share would be appreciated)... i believe the picts to be celts, though why i hold this belief currently eludes me (as i said, been awhile since i read or thought about this... and most of my good books, with the exception of goodrich's 'king arthur', and a few others, are in storeage back in texas)... this topic, however, has wetted my appetite, and i'll be doing some reading the next few days... should admit i found all of goodrich's conclusions especially gratifying... each of them seemed to confirm a thing i wished to be true (which is no way to approach research, i realize... though usually, i think, the way it IS approached)... the claims of the english for arthur have always rubbed me the wrong way (he being so thoroughly un-english in his... reputation)... goodrich's book has given these opinions (or conclusions) a place to hang their hats, which is very cool... (do seem to remember it theorized that the picts were first-wave celts, as much as a thousand years ahead of the rest... and that their language was aboriginal... 'bog man', or whatever, mixed with whatever form of celtic tongue that would have been used at that time)(if, indeed, any)...

The first thing one learns about Pictish, aside from the existence of some undecypherable stones of a definitely celtic (you ARE pronouncing it with a hard C?!) interlock design, is that some well-meaning preacher took the parchment scrolls, which has lain happily intact in Scotland for centuries, to London where they were consumed by rats. aarrrggggghhh! I must pop out for a little while, but when I return I will get out my notebooks from 5 years if intensive research on all things Keltic and tell you he Bibliography for the relevant subjects. Meanwhile I shall tackle the subject again on the internet. It has been a while, and having someone to converse with has whetted my appetite, as well. On with the Quest! btw, I like your theory of proto-celtic speech for the Picts mixed with whatever aboriginal language existing at the time - if there was any at all...!

Altavista yielded some splendid URL's. The first is an overall excellent site with pix of Picts (stones, of course) and written history (such as there is.) http://www.ehabitat.demon.co.uk/scotland/index.html Ths Pictish Chronicles of Kings (did not know we knew that far back...) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/kings.html A very interesting discussion of Pictish names, etc. http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/scotnames/jonespictishmem/index.html just for starters...they claim 3587 web pages found...happy hunting! I'll be back to compare notes...!

The Highland Council Archaeological Survey http://www.higharch.demon.co.uk/ This page is full of stuff from Megalithic to the truly fringe stuff like leyhunters and such http://www.links2go.com/more/www.higharch.demon.co.uk/

Tales of the Fenian knights The history of Celtic �ire is characterised by its remarkable continuity. While Albion was completely reconstructed by the Roman conquest, her sister isle was left undisturbed. The High Kings ruled on at Tara. The Druids officiated. The pagan rites were performed without interruption. The tribal wars raged on unabated. The High Kings of Celtic Eire moved in a world where historical fact is still encrusted with legend and fantasy. Sceptical historians talk of "pseudo-history", or even of the absence of history. But like King Arthur, who is now accepted as a real personage, the High Kings of Eire are more likely to be historical figures embellished by the bards than names plucked from pure fiction. And the nearer they come to a literate, better recorded age, the more convincing are the accounts of their deeds. The Fianna or "Fenians" were the archetypal company of Celtic knights, the prototype of Arthur and his Round Table. It was at the court of Cormac Mac Airt that they, and their fearless champion Finn MacCool, performed their celebrated acts of derring-do. Finn MacCool - Fionn MacCumhaill - is the most renowned of all Irish heroes. He was the son of a Druid's daughter, who had eloped with her lover-knight to escape her father's wrath and who bore the boy-child after the revenge killing of its father. Mother and son, Murna and Demna, were taken in by the kindly Druid Finnegas, who educated the boy as his own and changed his name to Fionn. Once grown, Fionn embarked on a devil-may-care career of duelling, fighting, hunting, sorcery, love, and passion. In one episode he saved the life of Cormac Mac Airt and was made the captain of the royal bodyguard. In another he wooed the goddess Sadb, who had been changed into a fawn and who reverted to womanhood for long enough to give birth to their son Ois�n or Ossian ("Little Fawn"), the greatest of all the Ancient Celtic bards. One version of Fionn's death tells how he is not really dead but sleeping in a mountain cave, awaiting the hour of his recall. Relations between Eire and the Roman province of Britannia operated at many levels. The recent discovery of a large Roman fort on Eire's east coast spread panic among Celtic scholars when it briefly raised the prospect, if not of a Roman occupation, then at least of a Roman expedition. But it is now taken to be no more than a large trading post. In the religious sphere, the gradual spread of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire and beyond held momentous consequences. In the 4th century turbulence in Ulster, and the raiding parties of the High King N�all, prepared the way for Irish migration to northern Albion. This was the first step in the long process whereby the concept of a "Land of the Scots" was to be moved wholesale from Eire to a new home across the sea. � Times of London

Marcia, do you know the name of the series of books that start with Atlantis being destroyed by an earthquake and tidal wave. Before the earth quake happens the king has dreams of the disaster so he sends his daughter and a companion away on a ship that crashes on the shores of England or Ireland. She is saved by a farmer who she later marries. Merlin is her grandson and he gets his powers from her.

A related website (hosted here) that you may want to look at is the http://www.atlantea.com website of Roger Didio.

Thanks for the link, Terry. Lucie, I don't know of those books off hand. I have read several which allude to these themes but only in brief. I will check on it for you, but it is usually difficult on the web to search for a story's senario and find the exact book for which you are looking. But, that will not deter me...I love the hunt!

For an entirely new take on things Arthurian and specifically the Holy Grail, http://website.lineone.net/~c_tolworthy/grail.htm

http://website.lineone.net/~c_tolworthy/grail.htm An overview of the grail legends The first fully developed grail legend that survives is Chr�tien de Troyes's unfinished Perceval or Conte del Graal (Story of the Grail), written around 1190. It is probably based on a Welsh poem, Peredur son of Evrawk. The main difference is that in the Welsh version, the grail is not specifically identified. Indeed, it is generally accepted that in the original legends the item itself was not the important thing - it could be a cup, a lance, a plate, a stone - anything that was imbued with godly power and religious significance. The grail story was further developed in the following couple of centuries (or possibly the later copies were just more accurate versions of the original, now lost). The stories of King Arthur's knights represented chivalrous ideals of honour and Christian conduct. And the grail legends represented the highest desire for purity. Only the purest knights could attempt the quest. Everyone agrees that the grail stories' popularity coincided with the darkest period of Christian history. It was the time of the crusades, and the period of the greatest worldly power of the church. Things were so bad that, from the twelfth century, there were more and more calls for reform. Modern scholars generally date the roots of the reformation from this period. So, amidst the darkest period of Christianity, people clung to the highest ideal they could find of Christian life. Three questions immediately arise: 1.Why did they choose to remember a sixth century British king? 2.Why did they choose a Celtic cup (or stone or plate)? 3.And why, in the stories, is the quest for the grail always unsuccessful? For more about the grail, visit http://engr.arizona.edu/~dkf/grail.html

Beware, following the continuity of thought in the original website above will lead inevitably to the subject of British Israelites which does not belong here, no matter what they say.

Happy Birthday Marcia

Lucie!!! Mahalo Nui Loa! *HUGS* ( I gotta get this subject going again... when I get a moment in my 27 hour day.)

Happy Birthday, wonderful geo goddess!

Thank you, kindly Terry! You do get around. I was told to check drool tomorrow. You don't suppose they have planned something, do you??!!

OK, I'm kinda confused...here (CA) it's 10 p.m. on May 30. How did you guys wind up posting tomorrow??

I is tomorrow in Austin! and has been tomorrow for hours in UTC. It is only dinner time here in Hawaii!

It is even tomorrow in Australia - very confusing!

OK, I see, the clock is set to Greenwich Mean Time. That explains a lot. I thought I was going nuts...

me too!!

Lucie, come back!!! We need to get this going again, but nothing Arthurian is currently happening.

is Mists of Avalon any good? My friend Loyal talks about it a lot, and i want to read it, but I can't find it anywhere.

The tv series was great. I hope they replay it.

Mists of Avalon is one of the books I go re-read when I need a pick-me-up mentally. It is one of my all time favorites. Currently there is a new theme in the Matter of Britian. It seems the lunatic fringe Madoc people want us to believe there was a conspiracy concerning Arthur. Dare I dignify this stupidity with a link? We have the book and DB is adding it to his paper debunking false archaeology. Save your money.

I put that Mists of Avalon tv show on a dvd. The one with Sam Neill as Merline. Merlin.

is it available on amazon? i've purchased other TV movies from them before...

Amazon has diamond jewelry if you want it. I am sure they have the video of Mists of Avalon in just about any form you'd like. The book was so much better than the tv miniseries, though. I think I'd just rather re-read it.

well, now i got my next excuse to go to B&N!!

It's a great show. I know I'll watch it again. So will you give me a few insider tips on what to watch for as relates to the legend vs. the Hollywood version?

absolutely!!

OK what are your Davidi Letterman Top Ten Things to Look for while watching Mists of Avalon?

Let me think about this. I will get Amy to help. She is also a fan of the book.