Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)

Unless my watch has gone completely lulu, isn't this the day that we are starting the RV movie discussion? I just got home from work and thought that I would miss the beginning, but I guess I am the first. And since Karen's bold heading says that indeed we will begin today and on Topic 158 (not 98), I'll post here. Hope that's okay. I enjoyed RV, and the more times I watch it the more entertaining it becomes. CF is wonderful as Peter (and am so glad that he doesn't play the lover in the middle this time ;-)). I love his mannerisms and many of his lines. I like his scenes with Sophie Thompson when he's trying earrings on her and handing over a flask to her to help her get through the evening. LOL! Some of my favorite lines: I've gone quite giddy with relief. Like bees to a honey pot. The one about his watch (see above). And what does he say to Lady Marshwood (while taking her hand) when Nigel and Miranda arrive? Is it "untax the mast"? Another Navy reference perhaps meaning full speed ahead? Not really sure about that line, but it's very funny the way he says it and very sweet the way he takes Julie Andrew's hand.:-) Will post more ruminations later.

I also like the line: Leave him to me, dear, I'll soon have him back in the saddle. CF/Peter says this when he goes outside, at Lady Marshwood's request, to cheer up Don Lucas. I like the way Peter is always stirring things up a bit (with Lady Marshwood) in order to change or direct the outcome. Right before Peter goes out to the garden to cheer up Don Lucas, you can see his lovely Tux-adorned reflection in the glass of the door that Don Lucas has just gone out of - he's sitting on the arm of a chair. It's quite nice :-). Stephen Fry has some great moments and lines, too. I love when both he and Don Lucas are both speaking 'English', but the Hollywood "bum" can't understand a word that the English butler is saying. *hee hee* I think SF/Crestwell says it all when he explains the plan to Moxie and says: No, no, it's more a question of status than of actual achievement. This describes many of the characters who have gathered at Marshwood except of course for Moxie who doesn't really want to live a lie. She's got a lot of moxie, hasn't she! :-). And I love Alice the maid. She would definitely find herself on drool if she was around today! ;-)

Good for you Lora....good start. "Relative Values"... "Gosford Park -lite". Like you Lora, I love this little gem and don't know why it did so poorly in the BO in UK. Of course, it didn't have a target audience. Or, the guys who usually go to see this kind of film, rent them instead. Anyway, ODB has the greatest lines in this film. I've watched it several times, once just to watch his grimaces. Little scene stealers!Watch him, even when other actors are speaking. Those little noises he makes,LOL. He never goes out of character, consistent body language,raised eyebrows.The legs crossed, the little hand suspended in the air.He's a hoot. Hate to say this, but I can see why he pursued this role.And they had so much fun making it. Fave line when he's walking down the corridor about to meet Don Lucas...aside: "Be still my beating heart"

(Evelyn)Fave line when he's walking down the corridor about to meet Don Lucas...aside: "Be still my beating heart" Or, "I've gone quite weak at the knees." (As he tries to turn back, but Moxie pulls him back next to her!) LOL! Wouldn't we do the same (or try not to do the same - like you managed to do, Evelyn, so I've read) if we were ever about to meet him! :-)

from IMDb and I know we would agree: "the best scene in the film with Baldwin, aping scenes from Casablanca." LOL at the reviewer's recommendations: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0210943

Lovely to hear my fave ;lines again. I also love "The fleet's in and I'd hate to disappoint." which he ays to Caroline while playing the piano, right at the start. I have the cd and that line is almost lost, unless you know what you are listening for. I love this film, frothy and funny. Didn't the Times say he had a wonderful way with one liners (C,mon KJ you will know the exact quote:-) I remember keping the paper open on my desk at work re reading it ! Think he had a lot of fun with it (well he had a script for a start!). And I love Alice the Maid I saw Rv in Wales the first time and of course she virtually got a standing ovation at the end, she got the most laughs, after oDB of course! In fact I found the audience needed to warm to his performance and then he began to get laughs further into the film, whereas Stephen Fry was getting them from the word go.

(Lizza) In fact I found the audience needed to warm to his performance and then he began to get laughs further into the film, whereas Stephen Fry was getting them from the word go. Really? I wonder why. At times, I have a problem understanding Moxie when she speaks rapidly. And would someone pl. tell me, what's with the maid running those dogs up and down the lawn;-) Of course, we haven't even started on the scene with the Girl Guides...another fave

(Lizza) Didn't the Times say he had a wonderful way with one liners (C,mon KJ you will know the exact quote:-) Yeah, but I consult the Other Karen for it: 'Colin Firth, as Coward's acid-stripping alter-ego, has a way with one-liners that's almost indecent. ' � James Christopher, The Times (Other remarks on:) http://www.spring.net/karenr/mdbro/rv4.html

Promise I'll be with you guys tomorrow. Am channeling Noel Coward...

I love watching ODB show off his stuff in this film. Another huge character shift and such a complete characterization package. Every line inflection, every little gesture and look is authentic and true to his creation of Peter. All smouldering, dourness, humorlessness, and haughty indignation has been erased. What an ideal fantasy man Peter is! (Well, my ideal fantasy man, anyway!) He is oh-so-good-looking in a dinner jacket. He is the compleat gentleman, he spouts sparkling repartee, he is unashamedly playful, he's comfortable tossing off sophisticated tunes on the piano at a party, has perfect manners, always knows which fork to use, loyal to his family, kind to household staff, regular church goer and he even looks like Colin Firth. All except for one personal preference....oh, well, wouldn't he be a fun guy to pal around with? I've also had fun thinking about some of the many ironies in this film:...here's is gay character modeled after famous gay man being played by He Who Must Be Drooled Over and in very droolable manner, I must say, yet the character he creates is spot on. Here is ODB's character in starstruck awe of Brother Baldwin's character in garden scene, when in fact just tell me who has more stature as a film star? Well, off to Bedfordshire, to dream up more thoughts on ODB in order to make valuable contributions to this important forum tomorrow.

(Evelyn)Really, I wonder why? I think Stephen Fry is perceived here as an instantly funny guy. Colin doesn't have that reputation (and only droolers are going to be saying, Lord Wessex will have no problems making this role funny) and so it takes a little longer. I disagreed with the reviews that said he was too camp etc I loved his interpretation. (KJ)I consult the Other Karen for it Thanks for coming up trumps, and the link didn't fool me;-))

Nigel and Miranda's drive to Marshwood reminded me of Bridget and Daniel's weekend mini-break drive. Same accessories in manner of Grace Kelly, though scarf didn't fly off but maybe it should have! And Mark you and your suit were missed. There were nice choices for music,too, especially during credits: Almost Like Being in Love :-)

Thank for starting us off, Lora. Lots of good fav lines, which I admit I adore myself. They're all so devilishly delivered by Colin. -"I've gone quite giddy with relief" -"Just leave him to me, dear, I'll soon have him back in the saddle." -"Be still my beating heart" -"We might arrange that for after dinner" (responding to Moxie's comment about Miranda needing a good bottom-smacking) Actually, that prelude to and the actual meeting between Peter meeting Don Lucas is hysterically funny, rating right up there with Peter answering the phone and talking to Nigel before he arrives ("Hello, you naughty boy...swanning about the Riviera, giving away your hard-earned title..."), the beginning piano playing repartee with Caroline, the Casablanca scene...but one of the best is when Miranda comes into the drawing room after resting up and is going on and on. Peter is making all sorts of mocking gestures as he stands next to Felicity. Two fav lines of mine are delivered by others: -Moxie when she yells at her sister, " If you can hear the sound of Bow Bells from Sidcup, you must have the ears of an elkhound." -Nigel's "We say riding in England. The horseback is taken for granted." RV is actually very entertaining and nearly everybody has great comedic timing for the material. (Evelyn) "Relative Values"... "Gosford Park -lite" Since you're going to be seeing it this weekend, you're going to be amazed at some of the similarities, especially as it related to how a star is received in a grand old house. (Lizza) "The fleet's in and I'd hate to disappoint." which he says to Caroline while playing the piano, right at the start. Actually I like his teasing line to Caroline just before that. "Drinking a chap's champagne is tantamount to kissing him without permission." If he were straight, that would be a come-on line, but you have to wonder why he would say that. Since it isn't in the play, I feel like they put it in to make sure the audience knows he plays for the other team, as they say, and that everyone knows it. (Lora) And I love Alice the Maid She is a hoot. There's the scene when Don Lucas arrives and she stands frozen to the spot. He and Crestwell have their conversation in the library and, when Sir Freddie (ha ha) comes out, she's still there and hasn't moved a muscle, except for some outrageous facial changes. Being in the company of Hollywood movie stars is just too much for this gal. She even gapes unashamedly while holding a towel for Miranda. (Evelyn) And would someone pl. tell me, what's with the maid running those dogs up and down the lawn ;-) One of the great mysteries of this film--along with the real significance of the Japanese Room--especially as you never see the dogs inside. (Elizh) He is oh-so-good-looking in a dinner jacket. With the exception of the skinny ascot (tie being taken for granted), Colin has some of the best looking (and fitting) wardrobe we've seen in some time. Those suits were cut rather nicely. woo woo (BTW, Elizh, what shall we call you here?) (Elizh) starstruck awe of Brother Baldwin's character in garden scene I've thought a lot about Billy Baldwin's casting as the screen idol and it always seems so inappropriate. Alec, yes, but Billy, I dunno. Does he really seem like an early-1950s film star? I'd hate to have to dig my Pictorial History of the Talkies or Screen Idols books out from the box... (Evelyn) Really, I wonder why? (Lizza) I think Stephen Fry is perceived here as an instantly funny guy. Colin doesn't have that reputation So true. In most people's eyes, Colin is Darcy and that's not a funny part. He hasn't made his reputation, like SF has, on being a comic actor. (Lizza) I disagreed with the reviews that said he was too camp etc I loved his interpretation. The more I look at, the more I do agree it was very camp. But I don't think the reviewers disliked that at all and it works for me.

On my first viewing, I disliked it because Colin was so good at being camp On my second, I picked up on many more of the funny lines (I did like the "drinking a chap's champagne" one, and thought the girl and the dogs on the lawn very funny). Maybe it takes more than one look, and that's why cinema audiences didn't laugh in all th right places. I'm not aware of it being released on cinema round here (though I do live in one of the more philistinical areas of the country - and if that isn't a word already, it should be) Will be renting at the weekend for another good look :-)

(Rachael) I'm not aware of it being released on cinema round here It opened BIG for your country. For some reason, the 80+ rings a bell. This was promoted like a H'wood movie, very unique, with a wide opening. I remember all this being discussed on the other topics, and I posted weekly lists of the cinemas it showed at.

(Karen)One of the great mysteries of this film--along with the real significance of the Japanese Room--especially as you never see the dogs inside. Actually, you do see one of the dogs in Lady Marshwood's room when Moxie is doing her hair and Lady Marshwood has asked her what's on her mind. The dog enters the room about then. (Karen)-Nigel's "We say riding in England. The horseback is taken for granted." Karen, he did do that one well! I liked it too. It was also funny when he told her that she couldn't take the train -- not because he didn't want her to go, but because it had two stops!!! When Nigel loses interest he can't even hide it.

I have no recollection of it opening here at all, but then, I told you I live in a crap place ;-) and I also wasn't hookd on ODB then *shock horror* But anyway, I think it benefits from repeated viewings, once doesn't allow one to pick up the nuances and, especially, the cleverness and sharpness of Coward's language - after seeing Private Lives with the sublime partnership of Alan R and Lindsey D, I appreciate the perfect delivery of a good line.

once doesn't allow one to pick up the nuances and, especially, the cleverness and sharpness of Coward's language - I've been reading the play, and actually, most of those lines are not Coward's .But humorous, nevertheless. Edward Attherton bothered me more than Billy Baldwin. I thought EA was the weak link in the cast. Lora, I thought the train line was a winner too.

I didn't like BB, EA, or JT, for that matter. EA because he almost disappears, and BB and JT because of their jarring one dimensional performances. Maybe they're supposed to me cringe to emphasize their "low class" American-ness. But IMHO BB and JT are never convincing to me either as a couple, or as film stars. I just find them terrible and yucky and it's hard for me to watch them. The other thing I find irritating is that Dave Brubeck "Take Five" sound- alike tune that's played over and over again. There are so many songs from that era (LIKE "Almost Like Being in Love")that could have added to the story. But instead, they use that same tune repeatedly, which at times gives RV the feel of a cheap little sitcom or B movie. BTW, you can just continue to call me elizh...quicker than typing out the whole name, and there may be more than one of us...

I'm very disappointed. Had wanted to see this movie and thought I would go rent it and then intellectually contribute to the discussion. Wrong! Neither of my video shops,(only 2 around my small town) carry RV! Shocking and unbelievable I say! Anyways, will continue to read and enjoy your comments and while I mentally conjure up delightful images of CF in a well cut tux as he says "Just leave him to me, dear, I'll soon have him back in the saddle."

That's a shame, Lisa. (BTW, I've never seen it at my Blockbuster either) Anyway, I've emailed you.

Shocking and unbelievable I say! Though not unexpected, I suppose. This film goes into the black hole of everyone's career, I'm afraid. Even Julie Andrews' "Long-Anticipated Return to Films" has been eclipsed by The Princess Diaries. Am curious as to what makes one delightful piece of fluff stand out from another delightful piece of fluff. ;-) BB's character reminded me of Kirk Douglas. Never did a thing for me but I suppose was considered a sex symbol in his time. (elizh) But IMHO BB and JT are never convincing to me either as a couple, or as film stars. I just find them terrible and yucky and it's hard for me to watch them. Agree. They key is "film stars" since we see plenty of evidence neither can act. (I did mean their characters can't act. ;-)). The acting in 50s films was rarely that affected. I also thought they were deliberately mismatched as lovers in the film because you know there's no way in hades they're going to make it as a couple. Ditto, ditto, ditto on everything everyone said about Colin and his role. the best male role in the film.

(Karen), With the exception of the skinny ascot (tie being taken for granted), Colin has some of the best looking (and fitting) wardrobe we've seen in some time. Those suits were cut rather nicely. woo woo Yes, indeed! Which only goes to prove that it can be done. ;-) It was also funny when he told her that she couldn't take the train -- not because he didn't want her to go, but because it had two stops!!! This line is not just fluff, it is quite telling of his character. Colin's character can be dissected for the fluff/camp lines and the funny ones which describe his real character. Had he played it less camp, it would have been a perfect performance. Julie Andrews' "Long-Anticipated Return to Films" has been eclipsed by The Princess Diaries. Am curious as to what makes one delightful piece of fluff stand out from another delightful piece of fluff. ;-) The audience. Noel Coward gives us much better dialog but it has a more audience. I didn't think much of TPD, but my boys liked it.

That should be: Noel Coward gives us much better dialog but it has a more limited audience.

Even Julie Andrews' "Long-Anticipated Return to Films" has been eclipsed by The Princess Diaries. Am curious as to what makes one delightful piece of fluff stand out from another delightful piece of fluff. ;-) The difference:target audience."Princess Diaries "really appealed to the pre-adolescent...who go to movies It was a cute film; I saw it. The Noel Coward bunch are renters or tv viewers.We always laugh around here and call it "a nursing home movie".In an interview for TPD, Julie Andrews refered to RV as a "little film that went no where". Sad. I thought it was entertaining. I'm not a fan of either JT or BB, but do you think their yucky phoniness, unconvincing chemistry was an indication of their characters as two egotistical shallow movie stars.And the director wanted the roles portrayed that way ? I'm trying to figure out why Felicity gave that drinks party on Friday(?) night. What was the occasion? On Saturday, Miranda and Nigel came waltzing in.

[Admin Note: To make my life a little easier, could everyone add the name of person being quoted when they cut and paste and italicize, as I've shown below. I copy off these discussions for subsequent editing and uploading and it can be time consuming to have to search for the source names. Thanks.] (Lora) And what does he say to Lady Marshwood...when Nigel and Miranda arrive? Is it "untax the mast"? Try using the closed-captioning option (if available) to decipher it. I've listened to it and "untack" might make a little more sense, but I can't find that phrase anywhere. (Lora) Actually, you do see one of the dogs in Lady Marshwood's room.... Thanks, Lora, I hadn't noticed them. But still those references to the Japanese Room are leading IMO without any payoff. Felicity first suggests it as Moxie's new room. Moxie looks horrified and says that it is for "special people who stay for ages," which prompts Crestwell to suggest the Chintz Room as a more suitable alternative. Then later, Felicity suggests the Japanese Room for Don Lucas and everyone's eyebrows shoot right up as though there were some hidden meaning here. From they way everyone reacts, I would've guessed that the room had some special properties, e.g., next door to Miranda's or with a connecting door or similar. But nothing is ever made of it. (Rachael) once doesn't allow one to pick up the nuances and, especially, the cleverness and sharpness of Coward's language (Evelyn) I've been reading the play, and actually, most of those lines are not Coward's. I hadn't read the play for ages but when I went to look for the mast line (above), I was amazed at how different the play actually is. (elizh) Maybe they're supposed to [make] me cringe to emphasize their "low class" American-ness. I think that's exactly what's going on. It's the staid, British perception of Americans, their directness, disregard for class, etc. As two recent CF-related books have pointed out, Europeans think we "smile too much." ;-) (elizh) The other thing I find irritating is that Dave Brubeck "Take Five" sound- alike tune that's played over and over again. Funny, but the score and the theme music don't bother me at all. It could be that more real period songs were not used because licensing their use might have been too expensive. (Heide) BB's character reminded me of Kirk Douglas. Never did a thing for me but I suppose was considered a sex symbol in his time. Good connection, he does kind of remind you of a young but gaunt Kirk. But Kirk had a well-developed bod. I can just picture him in those early '50s films. BB seems too rail-like to be plausible as an idol from that period. BB's bad acting and overemotive actor remind me of Burt Lancaster. ;-) (Lora) It was also funny when he told her that she couldn't take the train... (Moon) This line is not just fluff, it is quite telling of his character. Colin's character can be dissected for the fluff/camp lines and the funny ones which describe his real character. True statement, but that is Nigel's line. ;-)

(Karen) But still those references to the Japanese Room are leading IMO without any payoff. Felicity first suggests it as Moxie's new room. Moxie looks horrified and says that it is for "special people who stay for ages," which prompts Crestwell to suggest the Chintz Room as a more suitable alternative. That last part isn't in the play. The Japanese room reference : Felcity tells Don:"You haven't got any feeling about being in a Japanese Room, have you? I mean you weren't in the Pacific or anything." Don: "No ma'am" Fel:"I'm so glad. It isn't all tht Japanese anyhow...just the wll paper and rather a washy looking painting of some carp.... It has a lovely view and when it's clear you can see Dover castle. Have you ever been to Dover Castle." I think Coward is just making fun of British remarks about the Japanese ("cruel race";-)

Thanks for the lines from the play. It had relevance there but no longer does and is noticeable IMO.

It used to be very chic to name rooms in certain foreign styles by designing them or adding art work. Japanese fans were used on walls, and the pottery placed in dramatic corners. Actually, this is still very much in vogue. Indian and Chinese styles are also favourites.

(Evelyn)I'm not a fan of either JT or BB, but do you think their yucky phoniness, unconvincing chemistry was an indication of their characters as two egotistical shallow movie stars.And the director wanted the roles portrayed that way ? I definitely agree with you here, Evelyn, and this portrayal is even illustrated to the audience (us) when Don and Miranda end up at the pool and Don proclaims his true love for Miranda. They appear to be playing what looks like a scene from one of their movies as most of the staff watch from the downstairs kitchen windows. It's like the downstairs staff is watching them in a movie! But that's their real life. So when are they truly out of character? Not sure, maybe for little bits at the end. But it sure is hard to tell. (Karen)Try using the closed-captioning option (if available) to decipher it. I've listened to it and "untack" might make a little more sense, but I can't find that phrase anywhere. Karen, I think you're right, I don't have the above option (or couldn't find it), but it must be "untack" since Peter uses a lot of Navy references. He also tries to convince Moxie to follow the plan about gaining the inheritance by saying something like - please listen (or follow) her ladyship's request at least until we can see the way the land lies. And come to think of it, that skinny ascot is also a very I'm-about-to-step-onto-the-yacht outfit! *heehee* Peter has a Naval obsession alright, and it's not the kind you find below short tops on young ladies - not that you would find any of those showing in the 50's ;-). And as for the dogs, what's a country manor without dogs running around? And I agree with Evelyn that the Japanese room might have a negative connotation post WW11. Moxie didn't want it, but Don didn't seem to mind. He just wanted to stay and try and get Miranda back. This movie cannot be watched enough times (boy am I wasting a lot of time ;-)). Every time I watch it I find another little gem. Like at the dinner table when Miranda has gone off to what she thinks is a Life magazine interview and Peter says, "Looks like a leopard doesn't change it's spots" and Nigel yells back at Peter but Nigel has some food stuck to his upper lip. LOL! He just isn't in control of things. He's meant to be the weak link of a character. Notice even in the last scene at the church, Peter and Felicity are at it again trying to oversee the situation when Caroline reappears. Love that synchronized upper torso bending they do! Also is it possible that Don Lucas is meant to be a parody of Gary Cooper in High Noon? Don does do that High Noon-ish scene (when he walks out to go after Miranda). And that was a movie Grace Kelly was in where Gary Cooper's character was about to lose his wife (GK) if he didn't go after her and forget about being the sheriff of the town. Don, like GC, does ultimately go off to find his true love ;-). Though JT is no GK, just a parody. But GK does at the time of the play date or marry royalty. Help, tooooo many levels to think about here!

Lora, I think you're absolutely right about the Don and Miranda pool scene! I missed that completely. Next time I watch RV I'll make sure I look at the pictures they show of Don and Miranda movies at the beginning and see if any more of these are replicated in their later "real life" scenes. This is a big a-ha! for me. My complaint about RV sometimes looking like a cheap 'n cheesy B movie may be a reaction to something that was done on purpose. Of course, RV has never been filmed before and original versions wouldn't have had the problem of Don and Miranda cheapening up the whole production with their bad movie acting because it was played on the stage.

(Karen) I've thought a lot about Billy Baldwin's casting as the screen idol and it always seems so inappropriate. Alec, yes, but Billy, I dunno. Does he really seem like an early-1950s film star? ( (Elizh) But instead, they use that same tune repeatedly, which at times gives RV the feel of a cheap little sitcom or B movie. These statements along with the movie's reference to Casablanca leads me to think that Don Lucas was based on Humphrey Bogart. He wasn't a typical 50's screen star and he did make B movies. I would say, therefore, it is ironic that his have been some of the most-watched and best-loved to come from that era, but since Americans don't understand irony, I'll pass. ;-) Just have to take a moment to droll over the fact that CF starts and ends RV with the same word... Caroline dear and...Good Morning, Caroline. Since that is close to what I am called when I am not called Caribou, I have to agree: This movie has his best dialogue! :-)

(Lora) And as for the dogs, what's a country manor without dogs running around? Bingo. Coward making fun of stereotypical country manors.

(Evelyn) do you think their [JT and BB] yucky phoniness, unconvincing chemistry was an indication of their characters as two egotistical shallow movie stars. And the director wanted the roles portrayed that way? Good question. I'd agree with the intentional shallowness of the characters. But does it necessarily follow that shallow people are incapable of being in love with anyone (other than themselves)? (Lora) They appear to be playing what looks like a scene from one of their movies as most of the staff watch from the downstairs kitchen windows. It's like the downstairs staff is watching them in a movie! But that's their real life. Great observation. Now it reminds me of another movie where an actor is always using dialogue from his films in real life situations and is caught. I can't remember which one. Will drive me crazy. (Lora) And I agree with Evelyn that the Japanese room might have a negative connotation post WWII. In the play, definitely, but that's all been surgically removed from the film and IMO goes nowhere for no reason, i.e., Much Ado About Nothing. ;-) (Lora) Also is it possible that Don Lucas is meant to be a parody of Gary Cooper in High Noon? Doubtful, as High Noon was several years later. (Lora) Though JT is no GK, just a parody. But GK does at the time of the play date or marry royalty. There's a long history of American actresses who went to England and married titles. Oh gosh, there's even a famous quote Alaister Cook uses during his Lost Empires remarks about this. (elizh) My complaint about RV sometimes looking like a cheap 'n cheesy B movie may be a reaction to something that was done on purpose. To clarify, "B pictures" are something very specific. RV is very representative of a feature film of that period. Even the Don Lucas-Miranda Frayle movies shown wouldn't be B pictures, given what "big" stars they were supposed to be. A B movie is "a low-budget production usually designed as part of a double bill or to support a more important feature." They were gone by the end of the '40s. Think westerns, serials like The Three Stooges, Abbot & Costello, Charlie Chan, the Bowery Boys, etc. (Caribou) These statements along with the movie's reference to Casablanca leads me to think that Don Lucas was based on Humphrey Bogart. He wasn't a typical 50's screen star and he did make B movies. Gaah! No, on both accounts. First off, Bogie (or Gary Cooper) didn't make B movies. Second, they would've been too old in the early 1950s to generate the kind of idol worship that Alice and the Girl Guides represented. Think, covers of Photoplay magazine, matinee idols, younger guys. Actors like Kirk Douglas, William Holden, John Derek, Tyrone Power, Tab Hunter, Tony Curtis, Cornel Wilde, Gregory Peck, Jeffrey Hunter, Montgomery Clift.. There are loads of possibilities of actors who had their moment in the sun at that time, but didn't last. How does this list look to someone who remembers that time period????? (Caribou) CF starts and ends RV with the same word... Caroline dear and...Good Morning, Caroline. Since that is close to what I am called when I am not called Caribou, I have to agree: This movie has his best dialogue! :-) A movie with a personal tie-in. How lovely. Have the box bronzed. ;-)

(Caribou), but since Americans don't understand irony, I'll pass. ;-) LOL! I always wondered why? Good thing there's a select group that does. ;-)

(Evelyn)Julie Andrews refered to RV as a "little film that went no where". Sad. I thought it was entertaining. Evelyn, I wonder if JA is refering here to one of her last lines of the movie where she says: when you think about it nothing much has happened. So maybe she was refering to the plot of the film not its success as a film.;-) (Moon)Indian and Chinese styles are also favourites. I got to see Gosford Park last night and one of the servants mentioned that one of the guests would be staying in the Chinese room. Probably would never have noticed the line if not for our discussion of RV! Moon, you are right when you point out that these were motifs of rooms in manor houses (even in 30's). Probably post WW11, the Japanese room was not on the top of everyone's list. Maybe that's why eyebrows were raised - they might have been scared to sleep there! I think Don, however, could have cared less - he was so drunk anyway (he fell asleep with his clothes on). Moxie's speech in the room where they are hatching the plan is in definite contrast to the characters of JT and DL. She says she cannot and will not "play a part" of a character she's not. Which is why she must blurt out the truth in the way that she does.

Karen, our posts crossed. Nix the GC/GK parallel. But in those notes that Lizza or KJ posted on the film, doesn't JT compare her character to GK? They were both probably composites of many actors/actresses (like the ones you mentioned) of the time.

(Lora)They were both probably composites of many actors/actresses (like the ones you mentioned) of the time. They meaning Miranda and Don.

(Lora), I wonder if JA is refering here to one of her last lines of the movie where she says: when you think about it nothing much has happened. So maybe she was refering to the plot of the film not its success as a film.;-) A double entendre. Very good Lora! (Lora), But in those notes that Lizza or KJ posted on the film, doesn't JT compare her character to GK? But those actresses are not as thorough as Karen is. ;-)

(me) Am curious as to what makes one delightful piece of fluff stand out from another delightful piece of fluff. ;-) (Moon) The audience. (Evelyn) The difference:target audience Astute observations, ladies, and oh so familiar. I was thinking more along the lines of something supernatural - like the misalignment of the stars. ;-) (elizh) Maybe they're supposed to [make] me cringe to emphasize their "low class" American-ness. (Karen) It's the staid, British perception of Americans, their directness, disregard for class, etc. And exaggerated in the same manner as the friends of Felicity's are - American perception of the British upper class = rigid, frosty, pompous. Miranda, by virtue of her Hollywood royalty status, thinks she should fit in, though underneath she's insecure. The class distinctions she grew up with are hard to shuck. (Karen) As two recent CF-related books have pointed out, Europeans think we "smile too much." ;-) Can not help but hear Mr. Darcy in that line. And yet despite that critique, we are all still "sweet girls". (Karen) But still those references to the Japanese Room are leading IMO without any payoff. I like the quirkiness of these kinds of deliberate non sequiturs in film. At least I hope it's deliberate. (Karen) Felicity first suggests it as Moxie's new room. Moxie looks horrified and says that it is for "special people who stay for ages," Surprised that's not Peter's room then. ;-) Amazed at how much dialogue I've missed as quoted in this discussion. Agree with Evelyn who said Moxie talks so fast it's hard to decipher what she's saying. My RV does not have the subtitle option, darn it.

(Moon)But those actresses are not as thorough as Karen is. ;-) So true, so true!:-)

Forgive me. Anyway, I agree about the composite characters for DL and Miranda. I just think Miranda was too showy for Grace Kelly, though we know what a little tiger GK was behind that virtuous facade. '-). Miranda's more Ava Gardner to me. Fun comparing though.

(Lora) Nix the GC/GK parallel. But in those notes that Lizza or KJ posted on the film, doesn't JT compare her character to GK? I don't see anything there comparing Miranda to GK. Maybe it was at the IMDB link posted by Evelyn?? The Times reviewer does say however that Miranda's "career is on the skids," and GK left at the height of her career. I doubt there's one actress Coward used as a model. I like Heide's comparison to Ava Gardner. (Heide) Am curious as to what makes one delightful piece of fluff stand out from another delightful piece of fluff. ;-) In a way, Relative Values reminds me of The Philadelphia Story--another stage play adapted to film, with the musical remake (High Society) starring Grace Kelly--but RV doesn't have the ex-husband trying to get her back. It does have Caroline though.... ;-D (Heide) And exaggerated in the same manner as the friends of Felicity's are - American perception of the British upper class = rigid, frosty, pompous. ...by another Brit in order to satirize them. (Heide) Surprised that's not Peter's room then. ;-) Naw, he was staying in the Wilde Room. ;-)

Another good Miranda Frayle-like star could be Rita Hayworth (Ali Khan) and then there was Lana Turner. BTW, the play was originally first staged in 1951.

(Heide), I was thinking more along the lines of something supernatural - like the misalignment of the stars. ;-) That too! I like to think of this little group as being aligned with the stars. ;-) (Karen) As two recent CF-related books have pointed out, Europeans think we "smile too much." ;-) But keep all the emotions inside. Great line in Gosford Park when the sister is crying because her brother is dead and her husband says to her, "Stop crying or they'll think you're Italian." (Karen), I like Heide's comparison to Ava Gardner. Works for me too!

(Karen), I like Heide's comparison to Ava Gardner. So maybe Don Lucas has a little Frank Sinatra in him. I believe Frank once flew abroad to be with Ava who was filming somewhere in Europe only to find her romancing another. (Moon)Great line in Gosford Park when the sister is crying because her brother is dead and her husband says to her, "Stop crying or they'll think you're Italian." It was her brother-in-law who I think she was also having an affair with. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to put this in our RV discussion, but I must say after having seen GP after a lot of viewing of RV, I prefer RV. I'm wondering what was the exception and what was the rule of how Lords and Ladies treated their staff. I find it endearing how Lady Marshwood and Peter went out of their way to help a loyal staff member and in turn the staff cared a great deal for each other. There was no fighting or jealousy in the Marshwood manor. Does anyone know what the norm was between master and staff during the 20th century? GP was a little depressing in that regard, but maybe it told the truth.

I believe Frank once flew abroad to be with Ava who was filming somewhere in Europe only to find her romancing another. And he turned out to be a Spanish torero. ;-) Ol�! I find it endearing how Lady Marshwood and Peter went out of their way to help a loyal staff member and in turn the staff cared a great deal for each other. There was no fighting or jealousy in the Marshwood manor. Does anyone know what the norm was between master and staff during the 20th century? Rules were very strick and delineated. But overstepping in either direction, whether too harsh or too lenient with the staff was an exception to the rule. Both RV and GP are good examples of the two extremes.

(Moon)Rules were very strick and delineated. But overstepping in either direction, whether too harsh or too lenient with the staff was an exception to the rule. Both RV and GP are good examples of the two extremes. Thanks for the info. Very helpful. How interesting to view them both at the same time.

(Lora) So maybe Don Lucas has a little Frank Sinatra in him. I believe Frank once flew abroad to be with Ava who was filming somewhere in Europe only to find her romancing another. It's funny, but I originally had Frank in my list but took him out because so much of his following was as a result of being the singer. Until From Here to Eternity (horse head, anyone??), he was pretty much in lame-brain, shlocky movies. (Lora) Does anyone know what the norm was between master and staff during the 20th century? GP was a little depressing in that regard, but maybe it told the truth. (Moon) Both RV and GP are good examples of the two extremes. There was 20 years difference between the two movies and one huge war--the great equalizing war--that brought down much of the class structure. One thing I just adore about RV is how you can really see the physical changes Colin adopts in creating a character. He is swishy, without being too swishy. His posture becomes ramrod straight at times and then dissolves with girlish flutter. The wrists, the pinkie finger, the way he sits in a chair and crosses his legs are all so perfect. This must be his Laban training from the Drama Centre. When he's going after Don Lucas ("back in the saddle" comment), it almost looks to me like he's turned his pelvis out to create that walk, something a ballet dancer would do.

Yeah sublime mover! It's nice to be able to sit back and revel in it after some contrasting roles we've seen of late, oops Be still my lurching heart;-0

(Me/Lora)Moxie's speech in the room where they are hatching the plan is in definite contrast to the characters of JT and DL. She says she cannot and will not "play a part" of a character she's not. Which is why she must blurt out the truth in the way that she does. I just wanted to clarify exactly what it is that Moxie says here. She's troubled by "this idea of play acting" and pretending to be what she's not. She declares, "I am what I am." She is the opposite of her sister and DL and can only be herself. At the end of the scene, Felicity says to her: Courage, Moxie. Both words are definitions for each other. Moxie needs a double dose to try to be someone she's not. Also just had to say that I love Crestwell's response to Lady Marshwood's: Crestwell, how much do you know? He takes it in a general sense and answers: In common with most of the human race, I know very little, but imagine I know a great deal. LM of course meant how much does he know about Moxie. Are these lines in play I wonder? And not to leave ODB out of this posting just wanted to mention that what he says to Nigel at the end: Roast Beef for lunch, Nigel...and Yorkshire Pudding? He says it so deliciously snide but at the same time in a kindly way, as only he can do. Isn't this a common British expression for being embarrassed about something and having it show? I apologize if I've got this all wrong. Please feel free to fill me in on this :-). Just loved the way CF said it! (Also made me think of blue soup, eggs, marmalade, and green gunge ;-))

The Lady Marshwood/Crestwell bit about how much he knows is definitely in the play. Moxie's speech--while I haven't checked it word for word--is pretty much there as well.This idea of play-actinb and pretending to be what I'm not won't settle anything. I'm what I am and I haven't got anything to be ashamed of.There's quite a bit more in subsequent speeches between "Oh, Moxie."

Having just seen GP, there is quite a contrast between the relationship bet. Felicity and Moxie and Mary and Lady Constance . Of course GP takes place 20 years earlier. But if Constance had asked Mary to do an impersonation, I doubt Mary would have declined. BTW I couldn't find Sophie Thompson in GP. I know she was in the downstairs crowd somewhere.

Karen: Now it reminds me of another movie where an actor is always using dialogue from his films in real life situations and is caught. I can't remember which one. Will drive me crazy. Was this possibly Greg Kinnear in Nurse Betty?

Very good, Mark. That works, but I don't think that was the one. I'd bet it's been done a number of times (actors using movie/TV dialogue in supposed real life situations).

V.V good Mark, it's impressive that you know your co-stars back catalogue so thoroughly;-)

Am delurking for a moment... I think I may have an answer regarding the significance of the dogs running all over the place - in the very first scene where the dogs are charging across the lawn, you can hear the hapless woman they're towing yelling at them "Peter... Miranda... slow down!" I took this to mean that the dogs were named Peter and Miranda, although you never hear their names mentioned again. I believe Lady Marshwood addresses the dog that enters her bedchamber as "Good morning my darling." I resist the urge to comment on why the dogs would have the same names as two of the main characters. As to what Peter is saying when referring to the mast (Lora thought it might be "untax the mast" and "untack the mast" was also mentioned), I believe he is saying "hang tight to the mast", another nautical term referring (I think) to sailors who have been caught out on deck in a storm. Another observation regarding Lady Marshwood... When she explains to Don Lucas what "Girl Guides" do, I couldn't help thinking that she was also commenting rather slyly onthe behavior she had observed between DL and Miranda in the garden-- their "artificial respiration" and "starting fires with damp twigs"-- ;-) I also thought ODB had most of the really great lines. So many of my favorite's have already been mentioned but here is one that I really loved that I don't think has been mentioned. It is when he is wedging himself into the throng of Girl Guides to be closer to DL... "Let's be honest girls... isn't he the most delicious thing you've ever seen?" Perfectly captions my own opinion of ODB. :-D Will go back to the shadows now...

Noooo, stay Sandy. Your observations are wonderful. I love your explanation about what LM says about the Girl Guides and how it relates to DL and Miranda's outdoor activites! :-) I always thought she was trying to tell them something with that Girl Guide explanation, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Welcome and post again. You're a triumph (as Peter says to Moxie)!

(Sandy) Will go back to the shadows now... Don't you dare!!! :-) You've added so much. Love that scene where they're taking pics with Girl Guides. If you have the DVD, you can zoom in on Colin basking in the limelight. A while back, I posted some info from one of the girls who appeared in that scene. At the gate, she was the one who asked DL to take off his sunglasses. OK, tomorrow, I'll get back in the saddle again. ;-)

(Sandy) Will go back to the shadows now... There's no going back, Sandy. Thank you.

(Lora) Moxie who doesn't really want to live a lie. She's got a lot of moxie, hasn't she! :-). This comment led to ruminations about the characters names. Her full last name is Moxton so we could say she has a TON of MOXie! Peter's last name is ENGLETON and makes comments that Coward may be saying would be made by a TON of ENGLish. Lady MARSHwood is going through less-than-solid ground, socially. CRESTWELL would do WELL for Lady Marshwood if he had a CREST. Miranda FRAYLE has a FRAIL career, facade and social standing. DON Lucas: like a Spanish DON when he is actually only Hollywood royalty. Now, for the ones that are a real stretch: ALICE finds herself in a Wonderland (of stars). Nigel spelled backwards is LEG IN which is what he is giving to Miranda, soically. Although, my DH did point out it should be a leg up or a foot in but I don't think Pugel or Nitoof would have worked as well. :-) (Karen) Have the box bronzed. ;-) Hee. Hee.

(Caribou)This comment led to ruminations about the characters names. LOL at all your explanations of names! They're great! It's been said that not a minute was wasted in this film (that there's meaning in everything) so I think you've definitely discovered another source for extracting meaning here. :-) What about Caroline, your namesake? Maybe she represents a LINE from the beginning of the movie to the end (it is her face and name that we see and hear in the first few frames and then again in the last ones), with nothing but histrionics in between. But she remains a constant and when Nigel sees her at the church he seems to sing with joy (CAROL). ;-)

(Lora) Maybe she represents a LINE from the beginning of the movie to the end (it is her face and name that we see and hear in the first few frames and then again in the last ones), with nothing but histrionics in between. But she remains a constant and when Nigel sees her at the church he seems to sing with joy (CAROL). ;-) Well done, Lora! I like that. It works for me. ;-) (Karen) If you have the DVD, you can zoom in on Colin basking in the limelight. For those of us who don't, can you show us? Have we discussed the British vs. American aspects yet? I will confess, I am busted. The scene where Don Lucas fills his glass to overflowing with ice is just like me. Ice is very important in my life. I relish it. It is cool and refreshing and the ultimate in low-cal. I go to a particular burger place because they have the best ice machine. The ice comes out in small and soft pieces; easy to chew without fear of what it will do to my teeth. I try to keep the right mix of diet Coke and ice while I drink so that each drink (and bite) is perfect. When the ice runs low, I go back to the counter and ask for a courtesy cup or two of more ice. While I am confessing, it doesn't end there. I have kitchen equipment. I have a ice crusher that turns cubes into chunks and I have an ice shaver that makes the ice for snowcones. One of my favorite treats is to freeze orange juice in the ice cube trays. They are the best on summer afternoons. And, it doesn't end there. I, of course, enjoy ice cream, popsicles, and because of my English roots, iced tea! So, you see, dear European friends, it is worse than you could have imagined. Someone working on RV had noticed that Americans want ice in drinks, but they may not have known how much some of us really, really enjoy it. :-)

(Lora/Me)sing with joy (CAROL). ;-) I've been thinking that it's really Felicity who does this. She even looks up to the sky. ;-) (Caribou)The scene where Don Lucas fills his glass to overflowing with ice I must confess that all that ice and liquid made me very thirsty for an iced tea (which is probably what they were drinking)! And he drank it right after Moxie drank her full cup of '32 ;-). With the sound effects it made me pause the video and get a cold drink for myself the first or second time I watched it. ;-) (I like to chew on ice, too :-)) There's something about the way Miranda comes down the stairs at the end of the film. With each floor she seems to lose another layer of facade. She starts on the top floor with Nigel with lots of dramatics, but with some realizations. Then she encounters her sister, Dora, on the next landing and she apologizes to her. While Dora in turn forgives her. Then she gets to the first floor (and bumps into the staff member with the hair oil ;-)), goes out to the pool, and seems to finally admit that she doesn't passionately love Nigel and would be making a mistake. I don't think she and Don would stay together forever either, but that's another story. So for the Marshwood family, at least, all's well that ends well. ;-) And Miranda has been honest with herself for the first(and probably the last)time, with the help of Lady Marshwood and her household.

(Elizh) re: BB & JT Maybe they're supposed to me cringe to emphasize their "low class" American-ness. I also cringed and fast-forwarded through most of their performance but there is also more to it than that (as Lora has been good at pointing out). It is easy to dismiss Miranda for her "American-ness" but she isn't American. She is British pretending to be a successful American film star and aspiring to be an upper class British Lady. I keep forgetting this and have to remind myself. And it is even further complicated by the fact that the character is played by an American (I have always thought of JT as American so if she isn't I have been duped and another layer is added). I think ODB would say that it is like an Escher drawing. When I separate Don Lucas from Miranda, I am more sympathetic to his character. He really isn't pretending to be something he isn't. When he doesn't understand Crestwell, he says "Huh?". He doesn't think overly highly of himself so, he doesn't understand that Crestwell is calling him Sir. He is honest and consistent emotionally. He comes to grip with his lose, follows his heart (to the determent of his career) and goes after what he wants.(That part does seem American to me.) He can distinquish between the movies and reality. (Peter tries to cheer him up by telling him about his success with the Mexican gunslingers and the girl. He responds "But, that was the movies." ) (Lora) There's something about the way Miranda comes down the stairs at the end of the film. With each floor she seems to lose another layer of facade. Thanks for pointing this out. That is good film making and visually captures what Noel Coward was expressing, though the stage production probably didn't involve stairs. (Karen) As two recent CF-related books have pointed out, Europeans think we "smile too much." ;-) Guilty as charged there, too. One guy didn't know my name and said, "You know, that girl that smiles all the time". :-) Americans didn't smile in their photographs in the early 1900's. But, now, with the prices we pay for dental care and orthodontics, we are teaching our children to smile, smile, smile when someone is taking a picture.

Americans didn't smile in their photographs in the early 1900's Bad teeth.And it was considered sophisticated and good form to supress happiness. Mobetta to be a sour-puss....or an ice-queen.

Love your name game, Caribou, especially "DON Lucas: like a Spanish DON when he is actually only Hollywood royalty." The Don title always sprang to mind. Don't know why though. Perhaps Zorro was lurking in the shadows. ;-) And your Alice is not really a stretch IMO. The Wonderland connection has been done before, most recently in the little-seen movie of that name that I adore. In RV, it might not necessarily mean land of movies stars, but everything turned upside down (through the looking glass). (Lora) I just wanted to clarify exactly what it is that Moxie says here. She's troubled by "this idea of play acting" and pretending to be what she's not. She declares, "I am what I am." In the movie, Moxie seems to fear that she "can't carry it off" and then adds that she is what she is. She sure does need a lot of "liquid courage." Bothers me to no end that Moxie can fit into LM's gown, a strapless gown to boot! There must be some really fine seamstresses employed by that household who could take in a gown like that so quickly so that it wouldn't fall down. Did they have double-stick tape in the 1950s? ;-) (Sandy) I resist the urge to comment on why the dogs would have the same names as two of the main characters. It's at times like these that close-captioning or the film script would come in very handy. I too can't imagine why the dogs would be so named, especially as that is an addition and not in the original play. (Sandy) As to what Peter is saying when referring to the mast (Lora thought it might be "untax the mast" and "untack the mast" was also mentioned), I believe he is saying "hang tight to the mast", another nautical term referring (I think) to sailors who have been caught out on deck in a storm" Here's another thought. "Mast" might be "mask." A mask is definitely what Lady Marshwood needs to hide behind for her first meeting with Miranda. (Caribou) Have we discussed the British vs. American aspects yet? The most obvious contrast to me is between Don Lucas and Nigel at the end. Nigel is standing on ceremony as DL and MF are going to drive off, but DL cuts through the crap and tells him like it is. "Face it, buster, she doesn't love you and is going off with me and, if you say another word, I'll punch your lights out." (paraphrasing the dialogue) *hee hee* (Caribou) When I separate Don Lucas from Miranda, I am more sympathetic to his character. He really isn't pretending to be something he isn't. The more I look at the Don Lucas character, the more I find him not so bad. He's realistic and he does appear to love Miranda, despite what's she done to him and to herself. I've watched that opening segment again, reading the headlines and paying closer attention to the background dialogue. Looks to me that Don Lucas has always been a big star. Miranda landed a role in which she co-starred with him (lesser billing) and they became an item. Then they co-starred in a few films and she became a celeb, but they had a fight during their last film and took off to the Riviera and didn't even attend the premiere. While in Cap d'Antibes, Miranda meets the Earl, etc. etc. But it's evident to me, from the way she talks to DL on the phone in the hotel, that she's still in love with him. If you were totally broken up, you'd hang up. Nigel's behavior deserves some comment. I find it unrealistic the way he responds to Miranda's unmasking at her bedroom door. Is he supposed to be in shock? It can't be that she's of lower class origins? Or is it that she's related to a servant and he can't handle that?

(Karen) Nigel's behavior deserves some comment. I find it unrealistic the way he responds to Miranda's unmasking at her bedroom door. Is he supposed to be in shock? It can't be that she's of lower class origins? Or is it that she's related to a servant and he can't handle that? I vote for the latter. I found it very ironic that when LM "explains" to Nigel how Moxie is now staying at the house not as a maid but as a social equal and convince him to treat her as such, he acted like a snobbish boor, finding it "preposterous" to treat her differently just because she'd inherited some cash, while at the same time foisting Miranda, another commoner by birth, onto his mother and expecting that she should be welcomed with open arms without so much as a blink because she makes movies. He doesn't change his opinion when Miranda reveals the sordid details of her "fantasized" London Cockney childhood, complete with Bow Bells and jugs of beer. Talk about a double standard. Only after he realizes that Moxie and Miranda are sisters, does his interest in his fiancee begin to cool.

Lookee, Lookee...RV is touring UK and What's on Stage is offering free tickets... Win Tix to Hampshire in Coward's Values on Tour The Offer: Eighteen pairs of tickets are up for grabs to see Susan Hampshire in Noel Coward's classic stiff-upper-lip comedy, Relative Values, about to launch a two-month UK tour. Must enter by 23 January 2002. The Pitch: Emmy Award-winning actress Susan Hampshire (pictured) - star of television's The Forsyte Saga, The First Churchills, Vanity Fair and Monarch of the Glen - recreates her acclaimed performance as the Countess of Marshwood (which she brought to the West End in 1993) in a new touring production of Noel Coward's classic, Relative Values. Set in the early 1950s, Coward's comedy highlights a delightful collision between starry Hollywood and stiff-upper-lip England. The news that the Earl of Marshwood is to make a Hollywood movie starlet his second wife comes as a great shock to both his mother, the Countess, and her maid Moxie. It transpires that the hussy is actually Moxie's long-lost sister whom she has not seen for over 20 years. The Countess feels duty-bound to force matters to a hasty conclusion. Directed by Joe Harmston, Relative Values opens in Malvern on 28 January 2002 and then continues to the end of March, visiting Newcastle, Richmond, Canterbury, Bath, Oxford, Woking, Milton Keynes and High Wycombe. Whatsonstage.com has 18 pairs of tickets to give away, two pairs for each stop on the production's schedule. To win a pair, please fill in your contact details and answer the following question. Competition ends 23 January 2002. http://www.whatsonstage.com/dl/page.php?page=comp&id=148

(Evelyn)Lookee, Lookee...RV is touring UK and What's on Stage is offering free tickets... Directed by Joe Harmston, Relative Values opens in Malvern on 28 January 2002 and then continues to the end of March, visiting Newcastle, Richmond, Canterbury, Bath, Oxford, Woking, Milton Keynes and High Wycombe. Thanks for posting! If CF reprised his role (from the movie) this is what he would/could be doing instead of Hamlet ;-). Oh well, I guess he wouldn't want to do all that touring even within his own country (when he's living there). He must have said to himself: a star of my caliber, touring and doing commercials, I find this not only hard to believe but quite appalling. ;-);-) **************************************** I am wondering about the scene in the Library after Moxie is introduced to Miranda (love her line in response to calling her Miranda - 'I should adore to' and Peter/CF's empathetic expressions behind Moxie). They all go to the sitting area and Miranda says: 'After all, none of you know what I'm really like. You have to judge by appearances and appearances can be very deceptive.' Then we hear the following line as a voiceover: 'How very true.' This line doesn't sound like Peter or Nigel and it sounds like an American accent. One would think that it's Peter's line because he knows about Moxie's deception but it doesn't sound like him. And Nigel doesn't know that anyone is not who they appear to be yet (he thinks that Moxie has inherited cash). So is it an anonymous voiceover to acknowledge many layers of deception, especially on the part of Miranda who spoke the lines in the first place? Listen to and replay that line - it sounds like a voice that was put in later.

I guess he wouldn't want to do all that touring I believe he toured with The Caretaker and Chatsky.

He didn't have two sons and a wife and a comfortable house back then. I happened to go to theatre in Bath when Susan Hampshire was there touring last year, was only non senior citizen in audience. RV will go down a storm there!

He didn't have two sons and a wife and a comfortable house back then. Only one son, probably a girlfriend and a three-bedroom flat, to be exact. (Not that I know it from rummaging through his dustbin, mind you.) And he was younger. But I'm sure that if something firmly grabbed his, erm, imagination, he'd be on the road again in no time at all.

Thanks Lora, I'll be on the look-out for that "voice-over". Interesting similarities with GP. Felicity and Lady Trentham both have v. low esteem for Hollywood and film actors. Reminded me of a story about HG's mom who was seated next to someone at a dinner table and remarked: "I have two sons; one is a banker, and one is a film star". To which the man replied: "Really? Which bank?"

(Lora) Then we hear the following line as a voiceover: 'How very true.' This line doesn't sound like Peter or Nigel and it sounds like an American accent. Sure does, Lora. Very bizarre. It doesn't sound like any of them and would've been done in ADR. I've checked the play, and no one says that actual line, although quite a bit of the dialogue here is fairly intact. Very sloppy filmmaking.

(Karen)would've been done in ADR. Sorry I'm not very up on the filmmaking lingo...what's ADR stand for? BTW, is Eric Styles the director related to Ryan Styles from 'Whose Line is it Anyway?' Ryan spent time on the British 'Whose Line?' but is Canadian or American, I think. I'm guessing that Eric is from somewhere in Great Britain, but maybe not. Could they be cousins? Just wondering, I really think Ryan is hilarious and very clever when performing improv.

Additional Dialogue Replacement (when they fix the sound afterward) Eric kind of looks like Bob Hoskins if that helps. He brought Dreaming of Joseph Lees to Chicago right before RV and did the Q&A.

Ah, Additional Dialogue Replacement. I'll use that term from now on when I notice it. ;-) (And I was thinking it was A Director's Right :-)) (Karen) Eric kind of looks like Bob Hoskins if that helps Thanks. Ryan is quite the opposite - very tall and thin (he's the tall guy on The Drew Carey Show). **************************************** As Nigel is returning from riding can he hear his mother and Don Lucas talking about how Miranda still loves Don? It's very hard to tell. His expression makes me think he does, but it's not clear that he's even near where they are walking. He angrily jumps "out of his saddle" but doesn't confront Lady Marshwood about it specifically. Meanwhile Don Lucas seems to be getting "back in the saddle" at this point ;-)

(Sandy) Talk about a double standard. Only after he realizes that Moxie and Miranda are sisters, does his interest in his fiancee begin to cool. I agree with you on this. While you might wonder whether Nigel's figured out that Miranda doesn't love him and is nothing more than a golddigger, that final scene at the church demonstrates he hasn't changed at all. He's still the irresponsible foolhardy lad whose head can be turned by the merest smile. You can see it in Peter's reaction that says, "oh yes, our boy is back." Speaking of Nigel, at the beginning, he tells a reporter that "being an earl is a tremendous responsibility" and that "Miranda will make a wonderful Lady M." He's obviously given it a lot of thought. ;-) At LM's party, that boorish guest asks her if Nigel would be allowed to marry Miranda. LM's response is politically correct, but then later with Peter, her confidant, she acknowledges her own application of the double standard: "someone of her own class."

(Lora/Me)sing with joy (CAROL). ;-) I've been thinking that it's really Felicity who does this. She even looks up to the sky. ;-) And, her FELICITY (happiness) is restored. :-) (Lora) Then we hear the following line as a voiceover: 'How very true.' I always assumed that it was Moxie. I think she appears making a guppy-like face shortly afterwards. I think she could say it tight-lipped like that and it would then sound even odder than the rest of her speech. (Sandy)Only after he realizes that Moxie and Miranda are sisters, does his interest in his fiancee begin to cool. Do you think Felicity's speech to Peter about Nigel's feelings toward Moxie would be relevant here? (I never could see what it was relevant to before.) She describes a closness between Nigel and Moxie when he was young. Maybe he thought of Moxie as a mother figure. If that is the case, then marrying Miranda would be like marrying his aunt. ;-) (Evelyn)Interesting similarities with GP. Felicity and Lady Trentham both have v. low esteem for Hollywood and film actors. Both movies also show that only the lower classes who would be attracted to and interested in such things. In GP, the only one who shows appreciation for the actor's singing is the one who is so common and poor that she must wear the same dress twice. (Egads!) In RV, the only ones who show any interest are the lower servants. Even Crestwell is above such rubbish. (Lora)He angrily jumps "out of his saddle" but doesn't confront Lady Marshwood about it specifically. Meanwhile Don Lucas seems to be getting "back in the saddle" at this point ;-) Like that analogy, Lora. Nigel seems to be trying to throw a fit but not doing a very good job of it. ;-)

In the play, Nigel wasn't such a babe in the woods. He had been married before and I think has a child. His wife's name was Joan. Felicity talks about having had to share Marshwood with her. So, the play puts a "loser" perspective on him....rather than the film's naive young earl seduced by a H'wood star.

(Caribou)I always assumed that it was Moxie. The voice over is too masculine sounding to be Moxie's or even Lady Marshwood's, though you're right it would have been a good line for Moxie (or Lady M) to say! (Evelyn)He had been married before and I think has a child. So, the play puts a "loser" perspective on him....rather than the film's naive young earl seduced by a H'wood star. Interesting difference here between the play and the movie in terms of Nigel's past history, though Nigel seems like a loser in the movie as well. Lady M has doted on him and guided him throughout his life. I think Nigel wanted to show that he could make a decision on his own, however rash, so he proposed to Miranda. At the same time, he seems scared by the prospect of his mum leaving him alone with his new bride and going abroad with Moxie. I don't think he can function without her. But he's trying to show some independence and fails miserably. Even though he looks over his shoulder at them in the church scene and is always saying 'Oh, mother', I think he's glad that they are always there to back him up ;-). BTW, what is the French expression that Peter uses (facetiously) at the dinner table when Miranda says she is not making any more movies? What does it mean? Is it another navy reference?

quel dommage What a pity

What a crowd ..don't these people work? At least in GP there were some deals going on. But the RV bunch don't turn a hand, except for the Americans and the servants. Interesting relationship beween Crestwell and Felicity. In the play Peter says to Felicity:"You should marry Crestwell" Talk about being dependent.

(Karen)quel dommage What a pity Thanks, what a pity I only know Spanish. (Evelyn)In the play Peter says to Felicity:"You should marry Crestwell" It's in the movie too. Peter says it would solve everything. But I think Crestwell is really fond of Moxie, don't you? He listens at the door when she's seeing her sister as the new Moxie, he's a shoulder to cry on, and then at the end he's there to carry her suitcase back in the house :-).

(Lora) Nigel and Miranda's drive to Marshwood reminded me of Bridget and Daniel's weekend mini-break drive. Also, DL talking to Miranda. He says, We belong together and tries to establish physical contact but she shys away. Reminded me of the Bridget/Daniel conversation at the party. DL even interrupted her at dinner like Daniel did. (Karen)Love your name game, Caribou, especially "DON Lucas: like a Spanish DON when he is actually only Hollywood royalty." The Don title always sprang to mind. Don't know why though. Perhaps Zorro was lurking in the shadows. ;-) Thanks, Karen. You are right. They were working on us subliminally. At the pool scene where DL is with Miranda, right before he says the big line, I love you, the music stops and a Spanish guitar resumes with softer sounds. Ahhh! Caribou)I always assumed that it was Moxie. (Lora)The voice over is too masculine sounding to be Moxie's or even Lady Marshwood's, though you're right it would have been a good line for Moxie (or Lady M) to say! Right you are. I posted in haste and repented in leisure. When I took your advice and actually listened to that scene it was clear as a bell that you are absolutely right. It must have been ADG as agreed on earlier. (Lora, thanks for being kind in your reply.) As a dyed-in-the-wool Darcymaniac, I would like to take this opportunity to express how much I enjoy that one scene of Peter, poolside, talking to Felicity. He is wearing a darker jacket (ignore the ascot) and light tan pants. When he sits and crosses his legs and folds his hands it reminds me of the early morning visit to Elizabeth on the day before he proposes. Re: the dogs being named Peter and Miranda. Makes it funnier when DL call Miranda, Pooooooch! I am also enjoying the Noel Coward insults: DL called Nigel: Mr. Hootie, Tootie, Snootie Moxie called Miranda: an affected little mutt (?), out for what she could get Felicity called Miranda: trumped-up (?) colonial floosie Nigel called DL: a bourbon-soaked oaf Who needs profanity when we have such great playwrites?

(Caribou)Also, DL talking to Miranda. He says, We belong together and tries to establish physical contact but she shys away. Oh, I agree with you here, I thought the same thing. Did Helen Fielding, Sharon Magire, and Andrew Davies watch RV for helpful hints? ;-) And what about at the beginning of the film when Caroline asks Peter if Nigel is going to 'marry that ghastly American actress' her statement had the same tone and attitude as 'American stick insect.' ;-) (Caribou)At the pool scene where DL is with Miranda, right before he says the big line, I love you, the music stops and a Spanish guitar resumes with softer sounds. Ahhh! Good catch! I hadn't noticed the Spanish guitar before! It's perfectly placed. Maybe he's named Don for Don Juan. (Caribou)As a dyed-in-the-wool Darcymaniac, I would like to take this opportunity to express how much I enjoy that one scene of Peter, poolside, talking to Felicity. He is wearing a darker jacket (ignore the ascot) and light tan pants. It was one of the only scenes in the movie which reminded me of Mr. Darcy too. Especially because of the way he says to Lady M: Someone of his own class, in fact. Sounded just like Darcy at a prideful moment.

(Evelyn)What a crowd ..don't these people work? Obviously not unless you count "opening something", drinks parties, concert and church attendance. This makes it even funnier that one of Nigel's objections to accepting Moxie is "it will be ackward for her and for us to have her lolling about the house all day and knocking back dry martinis".:-) (Lora)Lady M: Someone of his own class, in fact. Sounded just like Darcy at a prideful moment. Sounds slightly more acceptable from Darcy for some odd reason.;-) Another P&P moment was when Peter breathlessly asks DL "Will you be staying in England long?" Sounded just like Lizzy asking Bingley when he has returned for the hunting party. (Lora) Did Helen Fielding, Sharon Magire, and Andrew Davies watch RV for helpful hints? ;-) Hope they have for TEoR, too. Miranda (as Bridget points out about Rebecca during their weekend at the country estate) makes a good run at the Miss America title. Arrives in Grace Kelly-style traveling suit with scraf, goes directly to the bathing suit competition, proceeds to the evening gown and ends up with a lovely, yellow pant suit and fur jacket for her casual, going-away look. :-) I have found much to enjoy, smile and laugh about in RV but the other day, finally the sadness got through to me. LM tells Moxie (while she is doing her hair) she wants to know what is bothering her. But Moxie doesn't have to answer because before she can find the courage to say, the dog comes into LM's dressing room and she interrupts Moxie to ask the dog if he had his breakfast? So sad-this servant that she declares she can't do without is less important than one of the dogs. Relative values. :-(

(Me/Lora)Sounded just like Darcy at a prideful moment. (Caribou)Sounds slightly more acceptable from Darcy for some odd reason.;-) I really ought to have said that it sounded like his Darcy at a prideful moment. :-) And you're right it does sound slightly more acceptable from Darcy. Maybe it's because Peter isn't prideful at all. He's like a companion and friend to Moxie. He helps her choose her "disguise," gives her some "liquid courage," and socializes with her as if they were equals (especially the playful way they prepare themselves to meet Don Lucas). He also calms her down when Miranda leaves the dining room to powder her nose and Moxie becomes hysterical over what Miranda (not knowing that her sister is actually across the table) has just said about her. Moxie gets up from the table and says, 'Drunk am I? Dead am I...' LOL! I love that scene. Later they also do a cute little pantomime together at the table as if they were talking about and making fun of Nigel (with Nigel right behind them).*heehee* So it is out of character for Peter to sound like (his) Darcy. But he's probably perceiving how Lady Marshwood is feeling rather than feeling that way himself.

(Caribou) Both movies also show that only the lower classes who would be attracted to and interested in such things...Even Crestwell is above such rubbish. But is he really? I think he shows disinterest to the staff because they are wasting time and he's in charge and wants them to get on with their work. But you see Crestwell take surreptitious looks at the magazine and at himself in the mirror (after chastising the other guy for fussing with his oiled hair). Crestwell needs to project an image of being above all that. However, he really fails at the end when you see him driving up in the MG and DL compliments him on his "shades." Crestwell looks very pleased with himself. (Evelyn) What a crowd...don't these people work?...But the RV bunch don't turn a hand, except for the Americans and the servants. Doesn't the play refer to Peter being a travel agent? Am a bit foggy here. (Evelyn) Interesting relationship between Crestwell and Felicity. In the play Peter says to Felicity: "You should marry Crestwell" Talk about being dependent. While I agree Felicity is incredibly dependent on him, I think Peter is referring to the fact that both are of one mind in their outlook, views or beliefs. A great example of Felicity's dependence is the one morning when she didn't have Moxie to fix her hair. The woman was incapable of getting that front section in place. Sheesh! ;-) (Caribou) Who needs profanity when we have such great playwrights? There's nothing quite like a comment dripping in sarcasm. It would be interesting to see if all the ones you've highlighted are actually Coward's though. (Caribou) So sad-this servant that she declares she can't do without is less important than one of the dogs. Relative values. :-( And LM finally realizes that fact and more when she tells Peter that she really doesn't know Moxie after 20 years. (Lora) Maybe it's because Peter isn't prideful at all....and socializes with her as if they were equals...But he's probably perceiving how Lady Marshwood is feeling rather than feeling that way himself. Hmmm. I have different take. Peter is socially an equal. I recall in the play's cast list, he is shown as 'The Honourable Peter Ingleton.' His function in the play is what we'd now call the "girlfriend" or in his case, "the fag hag." He is LM's sounding board and he comforts her. Also, I believe he's the one who proffers the "your own social class" as the root of her problem with Miranda. He is making Felicity face up to the ugly truth behind her comments. I didn't see any evidence that he was unhappy about the social situation and hoped it would go away.

Wasn't Peter supposed to be "the voice of NC"? Who certainly wasn't born into the upper classes.

(Karen)I think Peter is referring to the fact that both are of one mind in their outlook, views or beliefs. I thought Peter said that because then Felicity would be able to stay the Lady Marshwood of the house since she would be the new bride! (Though she has no interest in doing that). Wouldn't that trump a marriage between Nigel and Miranda? Plus Crestwell is so loyal and keen about knowing what's really going on in the house before it's explained to him, he'd be a good partner ;-). (And Peter could retire as the 'girlfriend' ;-)). (Karen)A great example of Felicity's dependence is the one morning when she didn't have Moxie to fix her hair. The woman was incapable of getting that front section in place. Sheesh! ;-) Yet how is someone as spoiled and princess-like as Miranda able to do her own hair after a swim and a nap? I couldn't figure out how her hair looked just as good as it did before the swim. Maybe that's why Lady Marshwood was so horrified when she said she was taking a swim. Who would do her hair ;-)? I don't think there were blow dryers until the 60's ;-). (Karen)I didn't see any evidence that he was unhappy about the social situation and hoped it would go away. But he did enjoy poking into Miranda's past at every opportunity in order to out the truth. I love his questions (and he has no qualms about asking them and Felicity doesn't seem to stop him from doing so): 'And were you all alone, with no father, brother...or sister?' Or, when he asks Miranda what became of her sister. Heehee, he knows he'll be exposing something about Miranda's past and true social situation (even though it's not as bad as she says it is, he exposes her lies) when he asks those questions. He is indeed the catalyst for outing the truth via Moxie because of the questions he asks.

(Evelyn) Wasn't Peter supposed to be "the voice of NC"? Who certainly wasn't born into the upper classes. Believe or not, I don't think it inconsistent for Peter be the voice of NC and still uphold the class system. Don't we see this all the time? The servants maintain stringent class rules. Even today, there are still issues of class structure and an acceptance of it. NC wasn't a closet socialist or anarchist, was he? ;-) (Lora) I thought Peter said that because then Felicity would be able to stay the Lady Marshwood of the house since she would be the new bride!...Wouldn't that trump a marriage between Nigel and Miranda? I can't say that I am totally following your line of reasoning here. But, no, a marriage between Crestwell and LM wouldn't trump Nigel's marriage. The title stems from the male line, Felicity's dead husband. Nigel is already the Earl and his mother stays at the house because he allows her to. She will, however, always retain the title. (Lora) Plus Crestwell is so loyal and keen about knowing what's really going on in the house before it's explained to him, he'd be a good partner ;-). But does the movie not show that Crestwell does indeed know what's going on at all times? He had even figured out that Moxie's secret. Crestwell is the omniscient member of the cast. BTW, I think that Peter enjoys being Felicity's girlfriend. ;-) (Lora) Yet how is someone as spoiled and princess-like as Miranda able to do her own hair after a swim and a nap? Perhaps, as in GP, she was assigned a housemaid to fill in as a personal maid. You know, like Emily Watson had to do for the Wilby's wife, the one without a sufficient wardrobe? Maybe it was Alice...but I'm sure she'd be too nervous. ;-) (Lora) But he did enjoy poking into Miranda's past at every opportunity in order to out the truth. I too loved how he prodded her and the looks Felicity gave him. Peter, as NC's alter ego, tossed barbs every which way. Just before he takes Felicity outside at the beginning, he tells some guy to go bore some others. Love the flip way he tosses off those lines.

(Lora)spoiled and princess-like as Miranda able to do her own hair after a swim and a nap? I couldn't figure out how her hair looked just as good as it did before the swim. LOL. I saw that the first time I saw it on TV. Or how could she have such a wardrobe in a small suitcase!

(Karen)Crestwell is the omniscient member of the cast. This is what I meant too. Sorry if I didn't get this point across. I should have said that Crestwell was very keen when figuring things out, not that he was keen about doing so. :-)

(Evelyn) Or how could she have such a wardrobe in a small suitcase! LOL! Don't get me started on this? It's the same in all movies. Ever notice how light those suitcases appear? How easily everyone carries them? Could it be they are empty as well? ;-) Speaking of film gaffes, anyone notice that Felicity is clearly not wearing a slip in the scene where she's returning to the house after cutting the roses? The sun is behind her, and it makes her dress transparent. Moxie must not be all that good a personal maid. ;-D When Moxie is introduced to Miranda in the drawing room, she reminds me a great deal of Eliza Doolittle's first outing in society, i.e., the very stilted charmed-to-meet you's.

Saw ODB do one of his "eye rolls"( "there he goes again") at the end as Nigel and Caroline are going into the church. Shades of "eye rolling" in several scenes of P&P; esp. when Mrs. Bennet is speaking.

(Karen)Felicity is clearly not wearing a slip in the scene where she's returning to the house after cutting the roses? The sun is behind her, and it makes her dress transparent. I noticed that, but that outfit was clearly the most flattering on her in the whole movie. She looked very nice in it and the transparent look didn't bother me. It made her seem more open to helping Moxie with her problem. And indeed Moxie did become 'transparent' to Lady Marshwood when she tried to hide it. 'It was the army lorry...' ;-) Btw, speaking of dresses, the one Moxie ends up wearing could have been from Lady M's wardrobe from when she was younger. We know she was a lot smaller in her Mary Poppins days ;-). (Karen)When Moxie is introduced to Miranda in the drawing room, she reminds me a great deal of Eliza Doolittle's first outing in society, i.e., the very stilted charmed-to-meet you's. Yes she does sound like ED, but her voice was most stilted and stammering when she said hello to Nigel. She called him your L-L-L-Lordship at first and tried to catch herself since she was now supposed to be a friend of the family and not a maid. She was used to calling him that and forgot she would need to change her greeting to him until it was out of her mouth. Lady M noticed, but Miranda didn't notice the faux pas at all (sort of like Don Lucas didn't realize that Crestwell wouldn't be a sir...*sheesh* such uninformed Americans ;-)). So no harm done in front of Miranda...yet ;-). And of course, Nigel probably understood she was making a transition (even though he was not in on the true reason for it).

Interesting article about butlers: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4343340,00.html

(Karen)Crestwell is the omniscient member of the cast. I love how NC has had most of these characters decribe themselves for him. Felicity asks him, "What do you know?" His answer is priceless. "In common with most of the human race, I know very little but imagine myself to know a great deal." :-) Even Felicity does this when asked, "How are you, dear?" she says "Happy as a lark". mI RANda does this when she is confessing to Felicity, "I ran to America..." At one point Moxie is referred to as Mrs. Moxton, does anyone know what happened to hubby? (Karen)When Moxie is introduced to Miranda in the drawing room, she reminds me a great deal of Eliza Doolittle's first outing in society, i.e., the very stilted charmed-to-meet you's. And that is exactly the same thing they tried to do for Moxie but only had a few hours to affect the transformation. (Lora) ..but Miranda didn't notice the faux pas at all (sort of like Don Lucas didn't realize that Crestwell wouldn't be a sir...*sheesh* such uninformed Americans ;-)). Things like that and Nigel explaining riding in England makes it hard for me to keep remembering Miranda isn't American. Seems the film makers kept forgetting too. I think her character is made a total a** in the play, as Felicity said, because she is British trying to act American-unthinkable and unforgivable. But, she is somewhat successful with the act because everyone keeps forgetting her English roots.

(Caribou) because she is British trying to act American I thought it wasn't so much the nationalities, but that she was trying to be what she was not, that's why she's portrayed as an a** - she's not only denying her original nationality, but also telling fibs about her lowly background

(Guardian Article)The deference that a butler is supposed to show to his employer is tempered by the fact that, Jeeves-like, he also spends an inordinate amount of his time teaching his boss how to behave. Like many of the other things said about butlers this one applys to Crestwell because he was the one who came up with the plan to say that Moxie had inherited a fortune. Interesting that he could see what would change her social standing instantly. (Rachel)but also telling fibs about her lowly background She makes it more of a "rags to riches" story than it actually was. That would probably appeal more to Americans. Maybe she was using the same line she had used in the US but it didn�t impress her British "audience". Felicity tells Nigel that if he had any sense of nobless oblige he would ask Don Lucas to be his best man. Is that statement off-the-wall or is there truth hidden in that jest? (I like how the movie makers show Felicity�s nobless oblige-she sends the butler and maid out to the gate with lemonade for the Girl Guides. Reminded me of wassailing.:-))

Differences between Hour of the Pig and The Advocate During the rooster scene, there's a shot where you an actually see Richard standing behind Maria just before Mathieu calls out "Are you alright?" After that scene, the following sequence was cut: The cock crows. We then see a naked Courtois sitting contentedly, writing at his desk. Maria, with her shirt on (and nothing else) comes across and asks, "Can you teach me to read?" He smiles, takes his quill, lifts up the shirt and writes on her bare bottom. He draws a large cross and something else. Then there's this dialogue: MARIA: What is it? RICHARD: My hand, my seal... MARIA: My arse! RICHARD: (glancing out window at the castle) You ever been up there? MARIA: Oh yeah. At Michaelmas and sometimes...at Michaelmas. She starts to get dressed. He looks back at his work. RICHARD: How is he, the Seigneur? Are the stories true? Cut to Richard riding up to the castle, which is in The Advocate. * * * * * At the end of the first meeting with Nicol Williamson, he walks outside, and then there is this: Richard climbs on his horse, looks up at the castle wall and says, "Good God!" We see that he is looking at several dead birds grotesquely strung up. A young man standing nearby speaks to him. YM: They're butcher birds. If they make a kill when they're not hungry, they fill up their larder for another day. Richard just looks, then rides away. The young man smiles at him and waves. Then there's a shot of the witch standing on a cart being taken to her execution. Then back to the inn. Richard is standing behind Maria, holding her breasts and kissing her neck. MARIA: (hearing the bells tolling) Do you hear? They're going to hang Jeannine. He lets go and walks to the table. RICHARD: Are you going? MARIA: (coming up behind him and hugging him) Oh yeah! You can have these later. (no response) Oh, he doesn't like them anymore! You said I've got tits like a milk cow. RICHARD: (thinking about this) No, I didn't. MARIA: Didn't you? (she's obviously mixed him up with someone else) Then we go to the hanging of the witch, and Richard in bed with Maria while she describes the scene. * * * * * In the following scene, Richard is looking out from the balcony at night, watching an owl and some mice. There's another cut here. Inside his room, a breeze that blows his hair also knocks over a candle onto some of his papers, which start to burn around the model of his house. Outside, a peasant passes and Richard addresses him: RICHARD: (referring to night birds) Can you hear them up there, on the wind? PEASANT: Every breath. Every black and sinful word. But these walls of Babylon will fall, for the waters are poisoned with wormwood. Wormwood and gall! Richard glances again at the owl (this shot is in The Advocate). Inside the papers still burn, but now a cup of wine falls and the spilt wine douses the flames. Richard leaves the balcony and returns to his room. He looks with surprise at the burnt mess and looks for an intruder. The he goes to relight a candle and Samira enters as in The Advocate. * * * * * A few scenes later, Colin goes to the gypsy camp (this is in The Advocate), but the scene is longer. Samira goes off with her goat through the undergrowth. They sit down and have a chat. He asks her where she comes from. Then there is an abrupt cut to a courtroom scene, but in Hour of the Pig, the continues with the two looking at each other for a long moment. Then they are naked and in bed in the dark, making love. He calls her name, Samira, and then rolls over, and we see it is Maria he has been making love to and she is not happy. MARIA: Maria. RICHARD: Hmm? MARIA: My name's Maria. RICHARD: What did I say? * * * * * Then the court scene. Immediately after the court scene is another scene at the gypsy camp. Richard and Samira are wading at a leisurely pace through the stream. He is naked. She is wearing some clothing. A man on the riverbank picks up a quill feather and then starts to watch them from a distance. RICHARD: You should undress to bathe. The other women do. SAMIRA: I'm not other women. RICHARD: No, do you tell lies? SAMIRA: Yes. Not about the pig. RICHARD: Well, it doesn't look good. No witnesses, no story. I can only win by disputation. (She looks at him) Argument, fine words. And Pincheon sits there like a hawk in a tree, watching. What he's like when he spreads his wings, I don't know. Two small gypsy children talk in their own language. We next see Samira and Richard lying on the grass. He bends over to kiss her, but she puts a flower over her mouth to stop him. RICHARD: When you came to my room... SAMIRA: Not now. You'd think it was for the pig. RICHARD: I'd take the chance. They are disturbed. A young gypsy is startled by a figure lurking in the woods. He is being stalked and runs in fear. Richard and Samira get up and hear the sounds. They run to look. They see two men, one with aimed crossbow. He waves to them. The boy runs into the arms of the priest Albertus, who is walking nearby. Richard approaches them. RICHARD: What was it? ALBERTUS: Something frightened him. RICHARD: Do you know that man? ALBERTUS : No. (to Samira) Look to the boy, would you? (the boy runs to her) It's just an animal, perhaps. RICHARD: Look to the boy. Jeanine the watch said...um...darkness all about you. Look to the boy. Then we go to the scene where he looks at the dead body with the Apothecary Surgeon. * * * * * There are a number of extra shots which have been edited out, including little moments when things keep self-destructing in Richard's room at the inn (a shelf starts to fall, that sort of thing)

thanks for the list Karen

Thanks so much for posting this. I always wondered what the differences were. Now I know!

thanks Karen. have to watch "The Advocate" agian and try to fill in the gaps with your list. it will be hard to find a copy of THOTP.

Dang, now I want this instead of the sanitized one I've got. GRRRRRR

Thanks Karen. It sems silly that these cuts were made (but haven't actually seen them). There were bits of the Advocate that seemed disjointed--now I know why. (Were there cuts in Playmaker?! ;))

(Dale) it will be hard to find a copy of THOTP. Not really, but the piggie movie was only released in PAL format so conversions are all that can be found, and you won't find that at a video store. (Amy) There were bits of the Advocate that seemed disjointed--now I know why. While Hotpig will never be a great film, it is better than The Advocate, whose editing really hurt it. Cuts in Playmaker?? No doubt. We are still trying to track down the cameraman. ;-D

Those interested in acquiring the piggie movie should contact me at the office (nomdedrool@yahoo.com)

Karen, I heard that "playmaker" was released under the name "private teacher" in Japan, do you know if this is the same cut?

That's news to me. But it's not unusual for titles to be translated, and the term playmaker wouldn't mean much v. likely in translation. I know there's a VCD of Playmaker (which comes out of Asia somewhere), but I don't know anybody who's seen it.

I finally saw The Advocate last night, and was glad I could refer to the list of differences. Thank you, Karen! It explained a lot (including why the editing seemed so abrupt and choppy). I'm not sure what to make of this film. I liked the idea of an advocate for the people in that period of history. Courtois is tremendously appealing - intelligent, idealistic, energetic, charming, and utterly gorgeous. The movie has a certain quirky charm as well. But still, I can't say that I liked it. I'm not trying to start a full-blown discussion of the film (that is, unless others would be interested in doing so, in which case count me in) - I'm sure there's been one in the past, though I couldn't find much about it in the archived topics. But I did want to ask, is this a film that grows on you with repeat viewings? I intend to watch it again, but I'm wondering if familiarity will breed appreciation or contempt. And I simply must inquire about one thing. In the post-bath scene where Courtois and the priest are sitting around talking about the fine shadings of morality, are my eyes playing tricks on me, or is the camera set dangerously low when it's on CF?

Rika. What version of The Advocate did you see? i believe that there are two different ones. I saw the one subtitled The Hour of The Pig, and it was very revealing shall i say. A very nude Colin in a very hot scene with the girl at his inn. i really enjoyed Colin's character inthis film. Quirky but as usual, his fine acting shines through

(Rika) I liked the idea of an advocate for the people in that period of history. Advocate is merely another term for lawyer. I'd equate him with a defense lawyer in the US system, but as we learned during our discussion of this film, the legal system at that time bore no resemblance to ours. Courtois' idealism is central to the plot, as he leaves the corrupt and cynical Paris to go amongst the pure people of the country. He's so naive. Good thing he has Mathieu with him, as he doesn't even realize the true nature of his living accommodations. ;-D though I couldn't find much about it in the archived topics. That's because it was the first one we did and "would've" been in Topic 67 before we lost them due to the ineptness of moi. However, all is not lost as I had edited all those discussions (I have the raw content stored off-line too) and they will be going back up on firth.com as soon as I can get to them. I'm wondering if familiarity will breed appreciation or contempt I like it, as a satire. Plus you see more in it each time you watch. I don't know of too many people who have said outright that they dislike it. is the camera set dangerously low when it's on CF? This bears checking out. I haven't watched it in a long time. I'll report back later. (audiogirl) I saw the one subtitled The Hour of The Pig, and it was very revealing shall i say. As I tried to explain above, the film is known throughout the world as The Hour of the Pig. Only in the US, was the title changed to The Advocate. Also, HOTPig doesn't have all that much more in the way of "revealing" shots, except as noted above, where you can see Colin standing behind Maria. *woof woof* I wouldn't count the river scene as it was shot from about 100 yds away.

(Karen)I wouldn't count the river scene as it was shot from about 100 yds away. And probably was a double. I'm wondering if familiarity will breed appreciation or contempt I can tell ya' the leading ladies don't get any better looking.*woof,woof*;-) Real brown-baggers.Sally, the pig is cute though. And have you ever seen a scruffier group of people.You can almost smell 'em.Yuck!

(Karen) Courtois' idealism is central to the plot, as he leaves the corrupt and cynical Paris to go amongst the pure people of the country. He's so naive. And that's a part of what makes him so appealing. He means so very well but doesn't have a clue what he's up against. Good thing he has Mathieu with him, as he doesn't even realize the true nature of his living accommodations. ;-D I loved that! I'm surprised there weren't enough stray noises behind doors to make him suspicious. Maria's behavior wouldn't have been enough on its own - I think plenty of female servants in more ordinary lodgings would have agreed with her "waste not, want not" philosophy, at least where a guy that gorgeous is concerned! On the absence of an Advocate film discussion in the archives: That's because it was the first one we did and "would've" been in Topic 67 before we lost them due to the ineptness of moi. However, all is not lost as I had edited all those discussions (I have the raw content stored off-line too) and they will be going back up on firth.com as soon as I can get to them. Thank you! I look forward to it! I've enjoyed reading the other discussions, though it's so frustrating to want to jump in, but of course it's years too late. Have you put other archived discussions on firth.com? I've been there several times to check out all the wonderful stuff, but hadn't noticed any discussion archives. (Rika) is the camera set dangerously low when it's on CF? (Karen again) This bears checking out. I haven't watched it in a long time. I'll report back later. Needless to say, I'm not talking the Full Monty or anything (it's far less than we see of a couple of the women), but I think the camera strays ever so slightly into Monty's general neighborhood.... :-P

(Rika) but I think the camera strays ever so slightly into Monty's general neighborhood.... :-P Moving this chore higher on my list of to-dos. ;-D The old archive at firth.com had edited and illustrated versions of Three Days of Rain, A Month in the Country, Dutch Girls, Fever Pitch, Hostages, Hour of the Pig, Nostromo, Playmaker, The English Patient and Valmont. I hadn't gotten around to editing Apartment Zero, A Thousand Acres, Femme Fatale, Relative Values, Tumbledown or Wings of Fame yet. They will all go back up as soon as I can get around to it.

Plus, we can do another film discussion. Summer isn't a particularly good time, with everyone on vacation, and if Hope Springs does come out in Sept, then we'd be running up against everyone wanting to talk about it then. Such scheduling problems! ;-D

I'd love to do a film discussion at some point. I bet there are other newer people here who missed old discussions but have stuff they'd love to talk about, if the veterans were willing to put up with it! But it does sound like now is not the time, what with the recent and upcoming opportunities to see CF on the big screen instead. A rather nice problem to have..... I wish that we would always find ourselves beset with that problem......

Absolutely, we can a film discussion here this summer of either sort if there are others who are interested. It can be a revisit or a new one.

I'm an "oldie", but I'm in. Newbies always bring new insights and comments. But you can't bail out;-) We've had problems before with folks who say they want to discuss a film , post once and then bolt to lurk.

I've never been in a film discussion before, but have accummlated many movies in the past few weeks and watch them all, good or bad, so would love to become a part of discussions whenever you're ready to start. Looking forward to it and promise not to drop out as I really enjoy Drool and it's discussions. Favorites by rank are P&P, Fever Pitch, BJD, The Advocate, and My Life So Far but would enjoy discussing anything.

I've put up the first of the older discussions--the Hour of the Pig--here: http://www.firth.com/filmdis/thotp/thotp-part1.html We may want to do more with this one. Seems fairly lightweight in comparison to what we've done later. ;-D

HotP sounds good to me. And, Evelyn, I promise not to bolt! Any chance of seeing the original HotP beforehand? I know it's not that different from The Advocate (and Karen's been kind enough to share the list of differences), but I'd still be curious to see the real thing. Thanks for posting the previous HotP discussion, Karen! I enjoyed reading it.

Thanks Karen for the write-up. Will study and watch movie again and again so I can intelligently contribute to discussion. Looking forward to it. Thanks everyone.

Whoa! I didn't say we'd do HOTPig but that it could be redone. There are lots of films that we haven't touched on at all. Regardless, check out #113 above.

Oh, sorry - misunderstood. Which ones haven't been done?

Lots haven't been done. What we like to do is select a film that is accessible to many, which for now generally eliminates his rarer works. Here's a list of ones we've never discussed: Another Country Camille (but we have to wait for Moon on this one) 1919 (rare one) Lost Empires Tales from the Hollywood Hills (rare one) The Secret Garden (I think we can skip this one or else it will be the shortest discussion on record) Out of the Blue (rare) Circle of Friends Master of the Moor (fairly rare) The Deep Blue Sea (rare) Widowing of Mrs Holroyd (rare) My Life So Far Shakespeare in Love Secret Laughter of Women Blackadder (another skip) Turn of the Screw (potential skip, although is a very discussable story) Donovan Quick Londinium BJD Conspiracy Let's hear comments, preferences, etc.

Thanks, Karen, for providing the list above. I hadn't realized that there were some very memorable oldies but goodies still to discuss! I would love to discuss SIL, CF is so wonderful as Wessex. The discussion would be so interesting since there are so many stories within stories and parts within parts. I've viewed it recently and one of the scenes between Colin and Dame Judi remind me of the interview scene in TIOBE. But, I am getting ahead of myself here ;-). Suffice it to say, I long for a CF movie discussion and I will go to it! Just tell me when I am allowed to show my pleasure ;-)!

OMG, you've memorized the dialogue from this one too? LOL! But you shan't be allowed to bring your laundry woman.

Heehee...it takes one to know one ;-). I love SIL and CF's part in it. But I'm willing to get a consensus first. What do you think, dear drooleurs, out there in Firthland? Will you come anon :-D?

I get the impression from reading past topics that most people would prefer to skip "Londonium" as well - I've never seen it but it appears to be widely loathed. I'm personally very interested in DQ, having not seen it yet but having read the critical raves for the film and for CF's performance. But I'd enjoy discussing SIL too, and it's more widely available, so I'm happy to go along with Lora's suggestion.

Karen, I'm glad you brought this up as I was going to ask you about it myself. The videos/DVD's I have access to here in the middle of nowhere (2 hours from Sydney) are The Secret Garden (I agree with you), Circle of Friends, SIL, and BJD. After missing out on the RV talk, I'm really hoping to get in on this one. If one is chosen that I need to get a copy of, can you give me time to get it shipped here? (and I will use airmail.) :)))))))

I'll play, too. I could certainly enjoy SIL, but I'll cast an obscure vote for MLSF...I've always had a soft spot for that one, and it seems to be relatively easy to get, too, at least in the US. Must be the pajamas. Yeah, that's it, the pajamas and the preaching. :) DQ would absolutely be my first choice if it were more widely available. (I received it myself only with a significant assist.) And the L-word would be fun, in a warped sort of way. Not enough fun to nag Cinemax for another run, though... I notice HBO is cranking up Conspiracy for another round starting on Sunday, if anyone missed it.

I'm leaning toward MLSF myself, possibly because Colin *is* the lead in this one. Besides, do you really want to hear me go on and on about how fantastic Joe Fiennes was in SIL? ;-D

(Elizabeth) but I'll cast an obscure vote for MLSF. Not so obscure... MLSF is my vote because it's his film & I love the scenery;-). PS.Leave me out of L'dum.

Oh excellent! A film discussion I can participate in! I love reading the previous ones. I wouldn't be a one-poster either...I tend toward the gabby side when so motivated. (I am not of an unsocial, taciturn disposition, unwilling to speak, unless expected to say something that will amaze the whole room ;-)) Hopefully I'll have something a wee bit insightful to say. (Karen) Besides, do you really want to hear me go on and on about how fantastic Joe Fiennes was in SIL? ;-D If it was TEP, I'd be on about Ralph Fiennes. (Bet that's not a popular thing to say ;-D) Actually I need to watch it again with my new-found awareness of ODB. I have to see if I can find MLSF to rent somewhere. I'm also up for SIL or DQ as well. Haven't seen SIL since it was in theaters.

Evelyn murmured: PS.Leave me out of L'dum. I wouldn't want the MB to get his ego pumped up, either, any more than I suspect it already is...but the catty wench in me would love to spend some time skewering it to its face. Meooooowwww...the mind of the sexist man.

I think my first choice would be DQ, if enough people have access to it, because there's so much going on in it. Colin's part in SIL is not the lead, but he's wonderful in it, so I'd be happy with SIL. MLSF is an OK third choice (must dig out that tape and watch it again).

Sorry Karen, misunderstood about The Advocate. At any rate read reference to your list of the differences between HOTP and the Advocate. Could you tell me where to find it as I would be most interested. Have seen COF MLSF SIL BA CONSP BJD from list so just let us know what you decide. Anything is ok with me.

(Dorine) If it was TEP, I'd be on about Ralph Fiennes. Am covering my eyes I have to see if I can find MLSF to rent somewhere. Purchasing might be more cost effective. At one time, you could get MLSF on the previously viewed shelf at Blockbusters for $5 (less $2 during those promotions). Bet someone on eBay or half.com has a previously viewed one for cheap. (Elizabeth) Meooooowwww...the mind of the sexist man. LOL!! v.g. Perhaps with a few margaritas or similar (it being summer here), I might be able to watch it. And, Lisa, have no fear; we will give ample advance notice on the film and its start date and do our best to ensure that everyone who "swears to participate" will have access to said film.

Dorine) If it was TEP, I'd be on about Ralph Fiennes. (Karen) Am covering my eyes LOL.Dorine, I'm with *you*;-)

MLSF is not a bad choice, and those of you who have said that CF is the lead in this one make a valid point (as opposed to the supporting role of Wessex in SIL). Plus it is easily rented or bought (and that's a good thing for the BB ;-)). (Ebeth)Must be the pajamas. Yeah, that's it, the pajamas and the preaching. :) The pajamas are a lure (as well as the moss ;-)). But we still have to deal with the dreaded MEM ;-P. [MLSF - Moss Lures Sisters (of drool) to Firth ;-D] I agree DQ would be a good choice too (going to check the BB for it as can't remember if one can buy it there).

Oh well, DQ isn't on BB list, but I see that MLSF can be bought as a DVD. Someone might have discussed this already, but do we know if there are any extras such as deleted scenes, interviews, etc. on the MLSR DVD? That would certainly make it worth the purchase :-)!

I've seen MLSF and would love to participate in a discussion on it. I wouldn't even mind MEM, got some cussing -- I mean discussing, I could do on her too. If we do this one, I'll go back and reread their dual interview so I can get my dander up all over again. Good idea about half.com, think I'll go check it out before a Drool run on his videos drives the price up! And ditto to the question above about the DVD...any additional value in it?

(BarbS) I've seen MLSF ....I wouldn't even mind MEM....I'll go back and reread their dual interview so I can get my dander up all over again. Oooo, I'm impressed at your dedication. Not sure if I can subject myself to that article again. ;-)

Lora and Barb both inquired re: ...I see that MLSF can be bought as a DVD..do we know if there are any extras such as deleted scenes, interviews, etc. Sadly, there are none on the US version I own, although there is a bait and switch to a series of Miramax trailers! Grrrr. But I prefer the DVD format so am just happy to have found it in the first place. I could be on about either RF or JF but greatly prefer CF in all cases. HAW on the L-dumb disaster...I don't drink, so you must have one for me. I can only do it because of the mere presence of you-know-who. The upside is that I could punch MB out just fine without having to resort to a trip to the pub.

(Lora) do we know if there are any extras such as deleted scenes, interviews, etc. on the MLSR DVD? Surely you jest? This is a classic Miramax/Disney DVD. Totally bare bones, not even the theatrical trailer. Much like the promotional campaign for the film. But it was cheaper to buy than the tape when they first came out.

Hi all, I would be glad to participate in a discussion, and anything sounds fine by me. I will be gone for the next 3 weeks, but will check back 08/01/2002.

I agree. I didn't care for the dual article with MEM either. She's got an attitude. However, since they're such long-time friends he sees other things in her character, obviously. Am trying to locate movies. My Blockbuster has nothing. Will try half.com sounds good. Found someone who wanted to sell Hostages for $40.00. I thought that was a little high. Am I correct. I paid $40.00 for Gone With the Wind, new. Let me know if I'm wrong, Karen. Thanks. Did anyone catch the streaker at Wimbledon this morning! I looked up and there he was!

A little high? Outrageously high.

(scratching head in bewilderment).. You know... we REALLY need an acronyms list or something for people like me! (heaven forbid) Maybe it's just part of being a newbie, but 3/4 of the time I see an acronym I have to sit back and really study it to figure out what the heck some of them stand for. Who is MEM? (giggling at own ignorance) Maybe I should go back into Karen's archives and read more of the articles. Of course, I really have no room to complain since I added "HWMBA" to the many names we give CF/ODB. LOL!

i'm going to vote for SIL, but only because i liked it better than MLSF. :-) -or what about Circle of Friends?

MEM = Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio (did not look up spelling, I would have to care, but I think I got it right.) She was his costar in MLSF and she mentioned in the infamous interview in question that he had worked with her husband and they went way back (A Month in the Country?) I know Karen has the article in question on The Bucket, it was in German Vogue last year.

Ok, I'll put my two cents in...I cast my votes for MLSF/COF. Would love to participate in the film discussions. His role in COF was not that big, but certainly worth discussing.

Just to complicate it...how about SLOW - he looked very fine, indeed in that one. So that takes care of the visual aspects. And there were some interesting takes on topical issues : interracial relationships, migration/refugees, "open" relationships, and to lighen it up a bit, well there are comic book characters, antelopes, and don't forget those tomatoes.... Or, A Month in the Country. Oooohh - this ones gives me the goose pimples just thinking of those drooly eyes when he looks at her as she hands him the apples Oops...just checked Karen's list - this has been done. Pity. Otherwise, if had to vote for the popular choices so far : I'd vote for DQ, MLSF, Conspiracy - in any order.

Minkee! Clean out your inbox. Hotmail says it is full and you can't be emailed.

I HATE living in Siberia. ::::sigh:::: Just back from a lovely evening out with the DH (he is intrigued by multi-national nature of drooleurs, wants to know my kudos of him are reaching multiple continents) which included my second viewing of TIOBE in the *one* theatre in Indianapolis showing it. Sign in the window..."Our copy of The Impportance (sic - sigh) of Being Earnest has a scratch through the first 30 minutes." I feel SO abandoned...just leave me in a handbag somewhere. But...about 30 very appreciative people of mixed ages (no blue hairs, they must have all been in bed) laughed in all the right places. The two couples in front of us were really enjoying it. And the 5 ladies of a "certain age" who sat down toward the front may well be lurking here as we speak. What a nice evening!

So are we reaching any consensus on the film to discuss? I haven't spoken up about it lately because I'm open to pretty much anything, as long as I can get a copy of it, but we seem to have a lot of different preferences. But I cast a vote against TEP, given Dorine's threat to drool over RF :-D.

Will tally up results/preferences/threats/bribes and the like this evening.

SIL (unashamedly voting twice)

But he has such a small part Esbee...and doesn't get the girl and Karen will drool over the other Fiennes guy ;-)) And will you stay til the end of the discussion....hmmmmmm????;-)

(Minkee) Just to complicate it...how about SLOW - he looked very fine, indeed in that one. And there were some interesting takes on topical issues : interracial relationships, migration/refugees, "open" relationships, and to lighen it up a bit, well there are comic book characters, antelopes, and don't forget those tomatoes.... Minkee the brave! I actually wanted to suggest that myself, but thought I'd be hissed off the board as I gather it's not a favorite. And yes indeed, he did look fine :-P! I also figured the discussion would digress to centering on how bad that kid was. I actually thought it could have been a great film addressing all those issues you mentioned, if the script had been developed past what appeared to be a first draft. Or, A Month in the Country. Just managed to find that today for rent. I get it for a week...I can watch it enough to have it memorized. But as you say, it's been done. (Rika) But I cast a vote against TEP, given Dorine's threat to drool over RF :-D. I'm not a fanatic over RF, but he was pretty steamy in TEP (Sorry, Karen!) and esp The End of the Affair. ;-) My votes are in no particular order: DQ, SIL, SLOW, Conspiracy (abbr ?), MLSF (just have to get it....someone had it rented today), or BJD (but there's several boards on that already).

(Evelyn) and Karen will drool over the other Fiennes guy ;-)) No, I won't drool, but I will expound on how wonderful he was in that role and how he made the movie for me. When he spoke... At least, with all this input, I can create a list of upcoming discussions, which can include those more obscure ones possibly.

I'll vote for SIL or MLSF, both are easily available. But SIL is my first choice - I'm with you Esbee on that one. All of the characters are great and I realize our discussion will have to include them too, but I would wager 50 pounds that we'll have enough material to discuss about Wessex ;-)! (And I stick around till the end!)

Bribes, did I hear(read) that bribes were being accepted? I'll just recast my votes (actually, double voting for MLSF or COF. But, I'll go along and stick around-whatever the outcome.

(Karen) No, I won't drool, but I will expound on how wonderful he was in that role and how he made the movie for me. When he spoke... I'm with you on this. He was perfect. I couldn't believe he didn't get an Oscar nomination.

Have not been able to see SLOW as my video store does not carry it but have seen Consiracy, BJD, RV FP Blackadder, MLSF SIL ATA TEP P&P COF Advocate WOF Valmont AZ AMC DG willing to discuss any of the above.

Donovan Quick ! Saw it some time ago and would love to hear what you think of it. BTW I`m now very proud: have managed to see 10 of ODB movies/series.

(Lora) I would wager 50 pounds that we'll have enough material to discuss about Wessex ;-)! i agree! Wessex has a large enough role to spur a great deal of conversation (and if all else fails, we can have a Cod Piece spoting competition) ;-) And Yes Evelyn, if we go with SIL i'll stick around for the whole discussion ;-P *eyeing the heavens for bolt of lightening*

(Esbee) And Yes Evelyn, if we go with SIL i'll stick around for the whole discussion ;-P *eyeing the heavens for bolt of lightening* LOL. Now, now...you can't be a sore loser :-D

Despite a last minute appeal by the Florida contingent to count some hanging chads (regardless of which side they were hanging on), MLSF is the film-elect for the summer. I'd say we start this discussion one week from Monday, which will be July 22. So start watching your tape or DVD, making notes or check your mailboxes. :-)

*pouting* ;-P

*double pouting* ;-(( Wessex might have asked, "How was this to end?" Answer: As a movie must when Shakespeare's denied, with moss and a journey through the highlands. ;-);-) Don't worry I'll be there for MLSF discussion...wouldn't miss it! (But I'll be out of town the week of July 22, so I'll try to post on a lap top if I can. If not, I'll be back the next week.)

Our judicial system at work...even working some overtime! I've been notified that the matter is to be taken up by the Florida Appellate Court. High-level whinging and whining much in evidence. This will delay our start date to the week following: July 29. (Next complainer gets a gift case of moss toiletry items: perfume, soap, shampoo, ungeunts, deodorant) ;-D

And while they are deliberating, will someone be checking to see if the chads hang to the left or to the right? Glad you've picked a work that I have access to. Will review thoroughly and hope to have at least a comment or two to contribute as the discussion unfolds. I don't get a lot of time out here so most of it is spent enjoying everyone else's pithy or just plain LOL funny comments. Hope to have something to contribute.

(Karen)I've been notified that the matter is to be taken up by the Florida Appellate Court. High-level whinging and whining much in evidence. Have accepted outcome gracefully ;-) (though can't grow beard like Gore ;-D) (Karen)This will delay our start date to the week following: July 29. Thanks, Karen, for moving the date. I'll be 'curling' up for MLSF discussion on the 30th :-).

(Kathy C)And while they are deliberating, will someone be checking to see if the chads hang to the left or to the right? How does that song go?...England swings like a pendulum do. Could replace England with chads, or certain parts of the male... Eh sorry, just a little giddy over the election outcome. Getting back to your request, Kathy, I always check the chads thoroughly. Swinging to the left most of the time. Karen, even though I'm not complaining, can I still get the gift set? Also, for those of us who are new to film discussions on Spring-will you give us all the ins and outs before the 29th?

Excellent question, Linda! In fact, I was going to say that the postponement will allow all our newbies to learn the necesssary skills for a film discussion. This is the only topic where following a set format is very much desired for a couple of reasons, namely, it make it easier for me when I'm editing but also it makes it easier to understand the train of thought and maintains the sources. In film discussions, we follow this setup: (name) text from comment being addressed specifically No line of space and then your comment in normal font. It is very easy to do italics, although it seems harder to stop doing them. ;-D There are very good and easy to understand instructions here for how to do italics: http://austen.com/tutorial/index.html Many of us used Ann's tutorial and are now great proficients. ;-D You can practice to your heart's content on Topic 61 (Help) and you can get assistance there, as we "oldies" will stop by.

Looking forward to discussion of MLSF as I love that movie. Also looking forward to any instructions you care to give as long to be an active participant. Thank you. Will try to follow all rules as best I can. I know this is a silly question but whose name goes in italics, my name or the name of the person whose comment I am responding to. Please bear with me. Thank you.

Karen, thanks for the format rules. Any other ground rules us newbies should know about?

When you are responding to someone else's comment, then that person's name goes in the parentheses. Ground rules, ground rules, ground rules. Let me think... Oh yes, no hitting below the belt and let's play two today (sorry, I grew up with Ernie Banks).

okay - will quit whinning and being a sore loser (although would love a complementary gift set) will attempt to locate another copy of MLSF (my copy is being held hostage by my grandparents -who being in their 80s and of Scottish decent are enthralled with it) btw - who is Ernie Banks?

(EsBee) okay - will quit whinning and being a sore loser (although would love a complementary gift set) In lieu of that, may I turn the proceedings over to a gentleman who wishes to propose a toast? To EsBee, whose gracious acceptance of the inevitable has touched my heart. (I had a photo of Edward Pettigrew all set to use, but I thought you might prefer MD :-D) btw - who is Ernie Banks? Baseball Hall of Famer - played for the Chicago Cubs.

LOL - Thank you Rika! (and you're right -i do prefer Mark Darcy. Isn't he yummy!?!)

(ESBee)i do prefer Mark Darcy. Isn't he yummy!? IMO-the yummiest! Thanks for the MD photo, Rika-I'm very much enjoying it in honor of EsBee's gracious acceptance. Still waiting for the gift set, Karen *toe tapping lightly on the floor*

(Me)Have accepted outcome gracefully :-) Please know I have accepted outcome gracefully, hope you didn't think I hadn't since I had put a winkie after 'gracefully' before. I was making a (bad)joke in regard to Gore after the election...sorry about that. (EsBee)okay - will quit whinning and being a sore loser (although would love a complementary gift set) Me, too small and would love one of Rika's yummy pics, too, *she says meekly and feeling left out ;-( *

(Karen)It is very easy to do italics, although it seems harder to stop doing them. ;-D Is addictive. On behalf of everyone who has made this mistake, mea culpa! one tag closed, both tags closed. (Just practicing.) Will mark my calendar for July 29.

oops, wanted that small and instead didn't close tags

yikes...hope they're closed now. Look forward to July 29 and MLSF discussion. Back to html tutorial ;-)

(Lora) Me, too small and would love one of Rika's yummy pics, too, *she says meekly and feeling left out ;-( * Lora, Lora, please don't feel left out. I believe there's a gentleman here who would like to recognize your team spirit by proposing a toast to you as well...... "To Lora, just as she is."

Gosh, Rika, (she says shyly) I feel v. left out. *snif*

(Rika) I believe there's a gentleman here who would like to recognize your team spirit...... I feel so much better :-). That picture is quite the remedy! Thanks, Rika! Here's to getting ready to discuss MLSF :-D!

(Lindak)Gosh, Rika, (she says shyly) I feel v. left out. *snif* Linda, Linda, Linda. These pictoral toasts were intended as rewards for the dissenting voices who generously agreed to cease their wailing and gnashing of teeth over the selected film for discussion. But there still is one more wine-drinking moment in BJD.... so here he is, back by popular demand - Don't ya just love DVD's?

Lovely, lovely pics Rika *smooch* made my morning :-)

Oh, Rika, Rika Thanks so much for that lovely gift of MD. Sorry to put you on a guilt trip. I must confess I voted for MLSF-so I wasn't gnashing or wailing. I just wanted a toast to call my own. *she says ever so graciously*

Linda, happy to oblige! It's certainly no great penance to spend a bit of time with my BJD DVD every now and then. So now, thanks to your request, I have the complete Mark Darcy Holding a Wine Glass and Looking Droolicious Collection - it should come in handy on festive occasions in the future.

(Rika) it should come in handy on festive occasions in the future. I'll drink to that!

I know, I know our discussion doesn't begin for a few days still. But, to build the anticipation and get everyone in the mood, I thought I would quote Colin's first lines from MLSF. "Woof, woof. Excellent. I knew all those early years struggling to learn his craft in acting classes would pay off!!!!!

LOL! Lisa! *rolling eyes*

Plus you could tell he was attracted by the quality of the writing.

I think the real attraction was that this time he could jump in the lake himself without having to involve a stunt man!

I was waited on by an Elvis impersonator this weekend (who sells furniture between pilgramiages to Graceland) and all i could think of, the entire time he was doing his schpeel, was Colin's stunt man "looking like Elivs as you last saw him" i gave up furniture shopping and went home to watch P&P :-D (much more satisfing and less costly than a new couch anyway)

Did he sell furniture in Elvis mode? Or did he just tell you he was an Elvis impersonator? I can just imagine.... "This couch matches my blue suede shoes..... thank ya verra much." Isn't it amazing the things that can lead us back to P&P?

Your moss gift baskets are on their way. No fighting over them. ;-D

Good job on the gift set Karen. Can't wait for discussion to start.

OHHHHH, thanks, Karen. I thought you were pulling my leg about the backorder problem. I, too can't wait for the discussion.

OOOuuuu! Thanks for the lovely Moss Gift Set Karen! ;-) i'm in moss heaven (Rika)Did he sell furniture in Elvis mode? Alas yes. V. distracting, could carcely keep my countance. :-D kept thinking -Gah! he's not going to start singing, is he?

It's nearly the 28th here in Minkeeland, about 29 hours to go, and counting, until the discussion officially begins. Planning to view MLSF again tonight, with paper and pen (trying to keep up with lindak) and also check that my husband really was telling the truth when he said the new VCR was tuned in for recording. (DQ on Tuesday night!) Will try and keep a count of all types of glances, looks and leers for comparison!

Way to go, Lisa. The only reason I made so many notes is because I have a very short attention span, and I do think there is a lot of undercurrent in this film that I want to ask our experts about. See you Monday!

Lisa, I'll have my fingers crossed for your VCR and DQ - I'm so envious! Regarding MLSF, Just a little something to whet our appetites in preparation for the 29th (which arrives sooner for some of us than for others):

Ah, who can forget the looks on his face at the end. Thanks, Rika! Lisa, might I suggest you have a friend perform taping as backup or at least do a trial run to make sure your DH has not programmed it for wrestling or similar. ;-)

Ah, Rika you always come through with the great pictures. May I have that look? I think there may be room for a little more bribery. Thanks for the picture.

Looking forward to tomorrow ladies. I just love him in this movie. And the looks at the end, forget it. The best. I wish you girls could make copy of DQ for us to copy. Lucky girls. Enjoy.

Linda, you shared back-seat limo duty with me, so I'll share the look with you. It was hard to pick just one from that astonishing array of emotions he manages to communicate in the last 30-40 seconds of the film, but I love the bittersweet quality of the one I chose. And here's today's installment - a photo essay on what was probably one of the bravest moments of CF's career to date: BRRRRRR! I'm sure the shiver in his voice when he's encouraging the boys to follow him into the water was entirely authentic.

Just a gentle reminder before we start MLSF. Pl. do not take personal offense if someone disagrees with your opinion on the film or a character. It all gets down to: Some of us say "tomaytoes" and some say "tomahtoes". So pl. don't "pick up your marbles and go home", if there's a dissenting opinion. Stay with us, OK?

You are a true photojournalist, Rika! That composition says just so much. I'd like to reiterate what Evelyn has posted, which applies not only to film discussions but to any other topic at Drool. We all have opinions and there's no need preface your comments (ever) with "getting ready to be stoned" or "ducking for cover" or similar. We're adults and can discuss things rationally (and irrationally). Naturally there are going to be differences of opinion. The only thing to avoid is to make it personal. We don't attack anyone's beliefs here. OK, am taking my wet blanket to another room to dry out. ;-)

(Evelyn)So pl. don't "pick up your marbles and go home", if there's a dissenting opinion. Don't worry about me, I lost my marbles a long time ago. However, if you all beat up on Edward tomorrow, I might just have to leave *snif* and a winkie.(don't have time to learn how do winkie graphically) (Karen)OK, am taking my wet blanket to another room to dry out. ;-) Please do! another word winkie.

BTW, Rika, Rika, Rika. You keep those images comin, honey and I'll share all aspects of the assignments with you. You little coffee wench, you.

Eh, too excited over Rika's images. Just closing tags now

You know...it is the 29th here! :))))

Then, go right ahead and start us off, Lisa. I believe you had some comments about the dialogue? ;-)

Our 29th day is coming to the nite... I've just got my MLSF DVD from Amazon over the weekend (ordered thru the Boutique of course, and RV too). Amazing how fast it got here, just ordered a little over a week ago. Had a quick first view and like the film quite a lot. Do so look forward to a very intelligent discussion over here! (actually I have questions/comments abt the appearance or rather non-appearance of a certain kilt, but guess it doesn't really fall under the category of an intelligent film discussion, so I thk I better keep quiet now and observe first)

Oh no, Andie, while I cannot speak for the masses, I think any and all topics that relate to the film should be thoroughly hashed out. The young boys sure do wear them! And I did notice that Uncle Morris wore tartan pants when he was walking with Grandma MacIntosh and berating poor old Edward. At least GMacI was shown to understand at that point that the property was meant to be a family home and not necessarily a business! Don't keep quiet, I have only watched one and a half times and have not really caught onto anyting yet...waiting for comments here to go back and look at specific scenes. :))))

(Andie)actually I have questions/comments abt the appearance or rather non-appearance of a certain kilt I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that you hoped you would see Colin in a Kilt and didn't? If so, check out the scene of the Halloween party, when the boys begnin to fight and Edward breaks it up-he's wearing a kilt.. (Lisa)At least GMacI was shown to understand at that point that the property was meant to be a family home and not necessarily a business! I agree. I also think GMacI stopped to think about the inheritance several times-especially when Fraser asks her what will become of them when Uncle Morris inherits Kiloran and they are made to leave. I think she knew it was a matter of doing the done thing and leaving it to her son,(which I think he desperately wanted for purely selfish reasons-IMO) or the right thing and leaving it to Moira and Edward. I think she questions Morris's motives too. Does he really want Kiloran because it belonged to his father, did he really need another business(he was a millionaire already), or IMO, because he wants to contiune to belittle Edward, as he does, every chance he gets.

I think a lot of Morris's motive has to do with being "better" than Edward. And few actors do nasty/snotty better than MMcD. I wonder if part of GMacI's decision to leave the house to Edward and Moira was for her grandchildren. Morris has no children, so if she's looking for long-term family posession of the property, then better to leave it to Edward and Moira, who certainly have produced lots of heirs (speaking of fully functional...). Loved Frasers's early explanation for the large family--lots of rooms to fill! I did notice Colin's kilt. He even wore the sporran [sp?], which hides anything we might be curious about (ditto the towel when he was running to the lake). In the Halloween scene, when the kids were dancing, did you notice that the little girl wore a kilt? Anyone here up on the rules of kilts/tartans? I thought that, traditionally, women did NOT wear kilts, only men did. If women wanted to wear the tartan, they wore just a sash. BTW, in case anyone wants to know how crazy Edward is about the moss, I checked up on sphagnum (have 10 credits in botany, and still have the books). Yes, sphagnum moss is real. In US we pronounce it "sfagnum" but I noticed that in the movie, Colin says "spagnum." The moss grows in just about any freshwater area. In bogs, it grows in mats across the water and can actually accumulate enough debris, bits of soil to form a mat that a lightweight person could walk on. Anyhow, eventually it dies and falls to the bottom and becomes compressed. This is "peat" as in peat moss and peat bogs. The dead compressed peat is what Edward was mining. when dried, it can be burned for fuel, if it has been compressed enough (very Irish). Also, it IS true about the bandages in WWI. Sphagnum, even dead, is able to absorb a huge amount of water in proportion to its own mass, so it was used in bandages. I could find no reference to its use in soap or unguents. The only use it would have in soap would be for an aroma, and I don't think it has much of an aroma. (All you need to make soap is a fat of some sort and lye--sphagnum wouldn't be an essential part of that process) Nevertheless, the gift bags were lovely, Karen. Thank you so much!

What in the world did Heloise see in Morris? I think Malcolm Mac Dowell must have been a friend of the producer to get the role...he was far too old to be Moira's brother.More like Gamma's generation. (Kate) I think a lot of Morris's motive has to do with being "better" than Edward. "Better" because he thought Edward was a "buffoon", and was ruining Kiloran with his off the wall inventions, and was not using the property to the best advantage. Planting Norweign pines for commercial purposes. Do you think there was a class distinction here? I read the book, but I don't remember if Sir Denis Forman's family were upper crust. You must admit dear Edward was "different", but endearing. And have you ever seen bigger dimples *sigh*.

Linda, I'm short of time right now but am very interested in discussing the inheritance and the Edward/Morris dynamic. I'll post about this tonight (and hope to read others' thoughts too). Andie, I agree with Lisa that we don't need to restrict our range of topics. Like her, I'm speaking only for myself, but Men in Kilts seems perfectly appropriate to me! And the beauty of it is, it can take either a serious or an entirely frivolous tone. Or both. So, first on the serious side. Does anybody know anything about kilt-wearing practices at that time? I noted that the boys wore kilts frequently, and the men only rarely (just at the Halloween party, maybe?) And at the Halloween party, the Pettigrew boys are in kilts but most of the other boys are in knee-length shorts. I wonder if this is a statement of family ties and social position, since the MacIntosh family is probably among the more prominent in the area (and possibly of old lineage). And now on to more frivolous things. I've had a few rather silly ideas for illustrating certain topics for the film discussion. I had intended to save this one for later, but since Andie brought it up, I'll present for your viewing pleasure...... A Bonnie Lad in a Kilt is Hard to Find (but here's one!)

I have to watch the film again, but I got the impression that Fraser wore a kilt more often than his brothers did. I don't know what that means... It's possible that the other kids at the party weren't in kilts because their families didn't have tartans. One didn't wear just any tartan, one wore one's FAMILY tartan. Of course, now you go to the "tartan centre" in Scotland and type your name in a computer and it finds "your" tartan/family crest, etc. (no offense meant to any Scots posters, but I really did see such a place in Scotland many years ago.) Perhaps Edward wore the kilt to the party because the family of the "manor" hosted the local children, including children of miners or estate workers, as would be appropriate for the upper class to do. By wearing the family tartan, he would be acting in accordance with his role as the master of the estate. Yes, Ev, the dimples were deep. Unfortunately, it's because the cheeks were a bit chubby. *I know I don't have to duck, but am ducking anyhow...*

(Kate)ditto the towel when he was running to the lake. WHAT am I missing? After Rika's pictures yesterday, and now your post, Kate-am I the only one here who has the version of Colin in a bathing suit running for the lake. There is no towel, no eye candy in my version. What gives? I want a refund. Anyway...not relavant. (Evelyn)...he was far too old to be Moira's brother.More like Gamma's generation The first time I watched this I was very confused. I actually thought Morris was Gamma's brother. I couldn't figure out why he thought the estate should be his. It was his age that set me on the wrong path. I must have missed the exchange between Morris and Fraser(because I was watching the dimples)when Morris says to Fraser...so you think my little sister is beautiful. Rika, I look forward to your take on the Edward/Morris inheritance. Lots going on there. A little digression into expressions. I love the one at the dinner table, after the loft, when Eloise and Edward are sparring about morals and christianity. Notice the very slight shake of Edward's head and the look(glare?) on his face when Eloise says "You can't do a bad thing, and be a good man, you can't have it both ways." Gorgeous-kilt or no kilt! Many more in this film, we will discuss later, I'm sure.

OH, %$#%$#, closing tags

(Kate). Unfortunately, it's because the cheeks were a bit chubby LOL. Not just his cheeks;-) Actually, I think he looks handsomer with a few more pounds . Had forgotten that Kelly Mac Donald was Elsbeth...she grew up to be Maggie Smith's maid in Gosford Park. And what do you all make of Gabriel, Emperor of the Air?How did he fit into the story? And that bizarre "Hairy Man"popping in....

I think Gabriel is there for irony. The day he shows up, Edward is testing a model of an airplane. What Edward is trying to do, Gabriel is doing. Also, I thought it was sad that everyone (including Edward) forgot about the model when the real thing flew over, and the model crashed. Only Fraser seemed to notice it, and he didn't seem bothered. Maybe this means that they're all used to Dad's little experiments going awry? On another note, isn't Colin adorable with the kids? He seems to drop all reserve and become one of them. (OT, but I have to add that one of my fave scenes in Valmont is the fake duel with Cecile, for that same reason.)

Lunch meeting cancelled, so I have some time here.... and I should have written "bonny lad", not "bonnie," before. Oops. (Kate). Unfortunately, it's because the cheeks were a bit chubby. (Evelyn) LOL. Not just his cheeks;-) Actually, I think he looks handsomer with a few more pounds. True, he's not at BJD weight, but I think "chubby" is a stretch. Anyhow, now I know which photo-essay I'll be posting tomorrow. :-) (LindaK) WHAT am I missing? After Rika's pictures yesterday, and now your post, Kate-am I the only one here who has the version of Colin in a bathing suit running for the lake. There is no towel, no eye candy in my version. Yeah,the boys are in towels, and he's in that silly bathing suit. Most unfortunate. I think what Kate meant is that the way he carries the towel occasionally inteferes with closer analysis of the.... fit of the suit. Here - visual aid: Kate, thanks for the information on sphagnum moss. Regarding its use (or non-use) in soap, I thought it odd that Heloise kept talking about how much she liked the scent of the moss, because I didn't think it would have much of one. I had one question - I understand about its benefits as a wound dressing because of its absorbency, but wouldn't there have been a greater danger of bacterial contamination than with cotton? Linda, you keep bringing up the exact things I want to talk about. All those wonderful facial expressions! Yes! You almost have to watch his close-ups (and there are so many) in slow motion to really appreciate everything that's going on. This is tempting me to put together a little close-up gallery.... hmmm. And, yes, I noted the little head shake - but more on that later, as it relates to a Big Topic which we'll have to get to eventually. Evelyn and Linda, I agree that Morris's age confused things, as he looked nearer Gamma's age than Moira's. Then again, Moira looked older than Edward, and Edward looked too young to be Elspeth's father. And in the book, didn't Flora and Adam Forman have to wait quite a while before they got married? So perhaps the ages are muddled all around. Regarding Edward vs. Morris, I agree with what's been said so far. Morris thinks Edward is a buffoon (and sometimes he is), and he thinks Edward isn't managing the estate's finances properly (which seems to be true). I like Evelyn's suggestion about possible class distinction, which is related to what Kate says about Morris seeing himself as better than (or maybe "above") Edward. Edward and Morris are well entrenched in their dysfunctional relationship at this point, and they remind me of two adolescent siblings who just can't get along. Morris, due to his sophistication and cynical outlook, gets the better of Edward most of the time. Edward's reaction is that of a petulant younger brother who knows from long experience that he can't win a war of words. So he pouts and glowers, and sometimes tries to throw in an "Oh, yeah? Well you're not so great!" sort of response. But the poor fellow is utterly ineffectual; Morris just aims that disdainful smirk at him and turns his remarks against him later on. I can't imagine how years of this sort of treatment would wound a man of Edward's pride and thirst for praise and attention, and I'm sure that played a big role in driving Edward's actions (but again, we have so many topics on the table right now that I won't open that one). So, what about Kiloran, their big battle ground? Morris never seems to question that one day it will be his, and he acts as the absentee landlord, arriving and departing as he chooses and dispensing advice and orders during his visits. Edward takes the "Possession is nine-tenths of the law" view - he lives there, so he just tries to survive Morris's visits and then returns to what he wants to do (as when Morris notices the elderly servant he fired, but whom Edward re-hired later). Except, of course, Gamma is in the mix too, and she's a force to be reckoned with. She's ruefully fond of Edward, and she knows how utterly devoted to him Moira is, so she's relatively tolerant of his eccentricities. And as somebody pointed out, she's aware of Morris's threat to kick out the Pettigrews when he inherits. It's not like Morris needs the place, while it's all that Edward and Moira and Gamma's grandchildren have. So while tradition favors Morris inheriting, and while pretty much everyone seems to expect that to happen, Gamma would certainly have concerns. But I think the most important point is that Edward loves Kiloran as a home, while Morris appreciates it as a financial asset, and Edward's view is much more in keeping with Gamma's. I love the scene after church when Edward and Fraser, sitting on the large rock and gazing across the fields, reflect on their home as a sort of heaven on earth. Morris sits down, gazes across the fields, and immediately envisions the money they could make in the lumber business. Gamma tries to explain the difference to Morris in the next scene (as Edward whizzes by in his striped swimming togs), but Morris doesn't get it. Edward and Morris make an interesting contrast. Edward at one point comments to Heloise that Morris has no romance in his soul. I think that's true, and that flaw costs Morris Kiloran. And you might say that Edward has too much romance in his soul, to the point where it interferes with his ability to make rational, adult decisions in many facets of his life. I didn't mean to go on for so long, but I've watched MLSF four times now, and by the third time I found myself paying more attention to Edward/Morris than to anything else. Their antagonistic relationship is fascinating (and occasionally very subtle), plus it's fun to see two fine actors squaring off against one another.

(Kate)Only Fraser seemed to notice it, I thought I noticed a wistful look on Edward's face as he turned to see his model crash-realized, though, nothing could be done about it. He didn't seem like the type to dwell on his failures. (Karen)And that bizarre "Hairy Man"popping in.... I don't know what he was there for other than, maybe, to highlight the boogy-man aspect/things that go bump in the night, and scare children. I don't recall anyone being around each time Fraser sees him-the only time he is spoken about is when they find his body in the river. No explination on how it got there either.

(Rika)Edward loves Kiloran as a home, while Morris appreciates it as a financial asset True, but I think the driving force behind his motives is do Edward out of it. I don't think it ever crosses his mind that his sister and her children would be driven from the home they love. As you mentioned, Rika, eventually Gamma sees the handwriting on the wall. (Rika)but more on that later, as it relates to a Big Topic which we'll have to get to eventually. I assume you are speaking of the loft scene and its many implications. I am waiting patiently for that to begin. I agree with you all the way on the Morris/Edward conflict. I think some of the best scenes and dialogue between these two are at the curling event when they begin to talk about the bet.(Morris: "What do you have that I might want to take from you in a bet") Another put-down IMO. However, we all know that Edward has already won-or has he? More on that later.

(Linda) I thought I noticed a wistful look on Edward's face as he turned to see his model crash-realized, though, nothing could be done about it. He didn't seem like the type to dwell on his failures. That scene always makes me sad too, but you're right, nobody really seems to dwell on it. On the Hairy Man, I wonder if that made more sense before the several rounds of editing the film supposedly went through after production. Isn't there a reference to him at dinner - someone is reported as "seeing Jesus Christ on the lawn." From the discussion, I thought it was the Hairy Man, and Fraser seemed to think so too.

(Rika)I love the scene after church when Edward and Fraser, sitting on the large rock and gazing across the fields, reflect on their home as a sort of heaven on earth. Morris sits down, gazes across the fields, and immediately envisions the money they could make in the lumber business. Yes! Excellent point. Morris does throw a bucket of cold water on a sweet moment. I agree with your analysis of the relationship between the men. Edward's reaction to a lot of what Morris says is rather childish, which can only serve to increase Morris's sense of superiority. On the sphagnum, I assume that it would have been packed inside gauze to make thick absorbent bandages, so it would not actually touch the wound. Thanks for the visual aid. That was exactly what I meant. @#$%^&* towel!

Rika...So while tradition favors Morris inheriting, and while pretty much everyone seems to expect that to happen, Gamma would certainly have concerns. Exactly, but the viewer is never let on to what will happen when she is gone. We have to wait for the end. And, isn't it a shame, in a way, when it does come about and Edward finally has his chance to get one up on Morris, that everything else hits the fans and his moment is blown? Grams does get angry and tell him to stop blowing up the hillside to harvest the moss and Morris sees this a step towards his way of thinking. Then, as I mentioned, she tells Morris that his father/her husband had the view of Kiloran as a family home first, not a business, which then gives them one point each, so to speak. Linda...but I think the driving force behind his motives is do Edward out of it. I do too , although planting the trees and making another few million are a close second. On that note, I really tried to see signs of Morris's marriage to Eloise as simply another prize for him to flaunt, as he is shown as rather unemotionally caring, i.e. kicking his sister out when he inherits. Can't say I did, but I haven't viewed is as much as others. Now, all these comments about kilts and tartans has peaked my curiousity. The tartan pants Morris is wearing during the lake scene with Grams are a darker print and clearly not the same as the one that Edward and the boys wear. One would assume that each is from their own family. I, too, would like to know more about when the kilt is worn. The sash comment above is interesting. Is there any scenes with the women wearing them? And, finally, I was a little confused as to who Morris was on the first viewing too, and thought he was Grams brother! As far as CF looking young, he very often does look younger to me than his age, depending on the angles of the camera and his weight. He also has a tendency to hold his head and look like a frog if he is in exactly the right position. Really, I can think of several times I've seen this. Thankfully, I can remember no frog shots in MLSF!

(Lisa) I really tried to see signs of Morris's marriage to Eloise as simply another prize for him to flaunt,... Or as a point that he is no longer a philandering bachelor ,but ready to settle down with a young wife...possibly have a family...and be ready to be the owner of Kiloran when the time arises. Rika you make some excellent comments about the Morris/Edward relationship. This film is one of my favorites and I haven't watched it in three years. What a treat. Agree that Moira looks older than Edward.[IRL MEM is older]. But maybe it was difficult casting for a dowdy young actress. *meow*

Can't wait to jump in, but have been buried here and am not a multi-tasker. :-(

(Evelyn) What in the world did Heloise see in Morris? IMO, a father figure; she allows him to call her his 'child bride' and objects to Edward's initial come-on as "acting like a child." Some, although not all, of her behavior, comes across as a wish to remain childlike. She relates better to the children than she does to the adults. And I do think Morris is marrying only to acquire something else (a wife) he thinks he ought to have. I love the actor who plays the Emperor of the air, BTW...he's worth checking out if you encounter him in other productions. The shot where he flies in as the paper airplane is about to be launched is absolutely beautiful to me. This strikes me as the story of not one, but two males growing up, one a child and the other long since a legal, if not an emotional, adult.

(Elizabeth)This strikes me as the story of not one, but two males growing up, one a child and the other long since a legal, if not an emotional, adult. Well said! Edward is quite childish, or perhaps childlike, at times. He watches his son and Heloise throw moss at each other and then Heloise kissed Fraser. Later, Edward throws moss at Heloise and expects a kiss. You can almost hear him think, well, that's what she did with Fraser, so why not with me? (Evelyn)Agree that Moira looks older than Edward.[IRL MEM is older]. But maybe it was difficult casting for a dowdy young actress. Moira looked deader than the corpse at the wake.

(Kate)Edward throws moss at Heloise and expects a kiss. I agree with your take on this, but when I watched last night I realized that at first, Eloise played along-she threw the moss first at Edward. I'm wondering how child-like she really was. Was she totally in the dark about Edward's attraction to her? I don't think so. I think she was a bit of a tease. (Kate)Moira looked deader than the corpse at the wake I thought she looked bad during most of the film. The outside shots with the hats were better. I think looking older was also part of the film...Moira seems to become concerned with her appearance after Eloise comes on the scene. Eloise is young, pretty and doesn't have eight or nine kids (I lost count)Edward's attraction is obvious from the beginning when she's playing the cello, and he gives her the look. Moira noticed it too. Perhaps she's made to look really bad on purpose. The dowdy, approaching middle-aged mother of 8 or 9 with a husband that is still very good looking. Brings out the attraction of Edward to Eloise a bit stronger to the audience as well as to Moira.

Heloies outright calls him a child, and Fraser is saying the same thing with "YOU'RE the one who..." Then there's Edward's apology to his wife. "I've been a child." It's as if he finally realizes he's taken the license the family gives him to be eccentric and pushed it too far. He saves his son's life with his ability to 'speak dog', but once the boy begins asking more mature questions, he retreats into platitudes and loses the ability to communicate. I'm thinking of more than just the "what's an orgy" business here, although that stands out. He lets Morris get a childish rise out of him on more than one occasion. And only a childish man would be jealous of a child getting that kind of attention from a perceived romantic rival. The final scene, where he walks away, shows more than one person growing up, too.

(Kate)Moira looked deader than the corpse at the wake (Linda) I thought she looked bad during most of the film. The outside shots with the hats were better. I think looking older was also part of the film...Moira seems to become concerned with her appearance after Eloise comes on the scene. Eloise is young, pretty and doesn't have eight or nine kids (I lost count). Actually, I think it was 10! Egads! Who wouldn't look like death warmed over with all of them. She seemed like she might be a hands on, or at least pretty attentive mom, despite having all those servants and workers around.

Ooops! Too many things going on at once

Re Girls wearing Kilts Being Scottish, I hope I can clarify this. Up until the 60/70's it was quite common for young girls to wear kilts (more accurately half-pleated tartan skirts with kilt pins). Boys very rarely wore kilts, although some Boy Scout Troops did as part of their uniform. The choice of tartan is down to the individual, although many WILL wear their Clan, if they have one! The landed gentry and the Royal family have always favoured them for any occasion distinctly Scottish. -( Hallowe'en has been celebrated in Scotland for hundreds of years). Nowadays, many Scottish men and boys from any social class will wear one to weddings, etc. - At a family wedding recently, there were around 60 with kilts, and they all did a conga round the floor! Quite a sight to behold!!

Moira looked deader than the corpse at the wake I agree and I think it is to add credibility to Edward having a wandering eye. I think his primary motivation for his pass at Heloise is one-up-manship with Morris, but what on earth would prompt this man to use this particular tactic. Gamma speaks of how Moira adores Edward and how devoted he is to her. Fraser speaks of Edward telling Moira how beautiful she looks and perhaps they should slip upstairs. At the end, Fraser talks of how his father finally remembered how to make his mother laugh. So they have obviously been demonstratively affectionate and loving to each other. To my way of thinking, it is one of the flaws of the film that there is just not sufficient foundation laid for his attraction to Heloise.

This is great fun. I agree with everything. How many kids did she actually have? I lost count too. Most really intelligent people such as Edward lack people skills, i.e. maturity, common sense. They can't have everything. It's just that they are so into their own little world of inventing, and discovery that they seem to ignore the every-day, which would retard emotional growth. Also he had a high-opinion of himself in that it was his way or the high-way i.e. no jazz music allowed, no frivolity unless he saw fit, etc. and the fact that he preached fire and brimstone every Sunday further elevating himself in his eyes over the common person. All things to feed the higher egotistic. He was very pleased with himself. Some signs of a real control freak. Yet when he received the estate in the will did he accept it graciously and in an adult manner. No he threw it in his brother-in-laws face in a childish manner, and then went to insult the sister-in-law on top of it, which really didn't gain or prove anything. So he definitely needed alot of work in human relations which he was beginning to achieve at the end. Thank God for the Grandfathers books so Frazer had a chance to learn different things. How I laughed whenever I saw him reading the books and then the open discussions he would have about them seeing them as absolutely normal topics, typical of a very young man and reminding e of my sons as they explored life early on. Also keeping in mind we are analyzing something from a time era most of us don't know about, therefore seeing things through a more modern perspective. What great fun this is. Looking forward to more. Absolutely adore Frazer and saw him and Edward on the same level many times over, which was why Edward was jealous of him. Great acting job done by Frazer and so realistic. Loved the last scene. He was in his glory. Totally oblivious to everything around him, doing everything he shouldn't. How great is that. And when Edward finds him, brought tears to my eyes. They were smart to have no dialogue. Didn't need it. Frazer's happily wiggling feet, and Edward's smile said it all. Great direction too. Love this. Look forward to tomorrow.

(Sandy) I think his primary motivation for his pass at Heloise is one-up-manship with Morris, but what on earth would prompt this man to use this particular tactic. Where else would Morris be vulnerable enough for Edward to strike at? I'm sure they all question her motivation for marrying such an older man.

Karen, I got SUCH a laugh at the "Gird your loins" caption on the photo on the Drool main page (and am so honored that my little DVD capture is on display there). Gosh, there are so many good comments - it's hard to decide what to respond to. It's terrific to have a Scot in our midst - thanks so much for the kilt/tartan information, Janet! (Linda) I think some of the best scenes and dialogue between these two are at the curling event when they begin to talk about the bet.(Morris: "What do you have that I might want to take from you in a bet") Another put-down IMO. I mentioned earlier some of the subtle little Edward/Morris things. I wanted to mention two that it took me a few viewings to notice. First, during the dinner party scene, there's some background dialogue while Gamma is getting snockered on the sherry trifle. We don't see Morris or Edward, but we hear Edward say something about sweet sherry. Morris cuts him off in his usual superior tone and says, no, no, it's amontillado, Father would NEVER have sherry in the house. They may be discussing the contents of the trifle - it's not clear - but as always Morris has to get the last word with Edward. The second one is in the scene when the hunting party is getting ready to set off. Edward and Morris are standing near one another, basically in the center of the group. Edward looks vaguely unhappy but it's not clear why - probably just his usual look when Morris is in the vicinity. Here's what happens: Andrew: "Well, if you're ready, sir, I'll lead off." (Edward nods in agreement - he assumes Andrew is talking to him. And it's unclear at this point - maybe Andrew was acknowledging Edward, or maybe not - but now Andrew looks at Morris and says:) Andrew: "Mr. McIntosh?" Morris: "We're ready, Andrew, you just give the word." (Edward flashes an annoyed look in Morris's general direction. Andrew blows a whistle and sets off. Morris moves ahead, motioning other members of the hunting party forward. Edward stands there awkwardly for a moment and then follows the others down the road. He's turning away so you can't see much of his face, but he lets out a heavy sigh, and there's a distinct tightening in his jaw muscles as he walks off.) Now I don't think Morris even knew that Edward perceived a slight here. Morris just thinks of himself as the master of Kiloran, and he just takes for granted that he would be the host of a hunting party. But for Edward, it's one more perceived insult to store up, one more reason to be jealous of Morris. It's also an example of the kind of wonderful stuff CF does with so many of his characters that's so subtle and delicate that it's easy to miss if you aren't paying close attention. (Lisa) We have to wait for the end. And, isn't it a shame, in a way, when it does come about and Edward finally has his chance to get one up on Morris, that everything else hits the fans and his moment is blown? And sadly, he blows the moment all by himself. He gloats, and he shoots off his mouth about the "bet." But that's Edward's childish nature in a nutshell. I agree with all the comments about how childish he is. I got the sense that CF was playing Edward as a 12-year-old in a man's body (at least, until, as Lisa says, it all hits the fan). I even collected a few DVD captures of petulant and pouty expressions that looked all too familiar to me from past experience with 12-year-olds :-). Most of them are from arguments with Morris, but my favorite is this one, from when Gamma scolds him for blowing up the hillside: And don't you think Edward's childish nature was both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness? It gave him an endearing energy and a zest for living, and it made him unconcerned about looking ridiculous. I can entirely see how Moira, who seemed shy and tentative, would have been swept off her feet by his energy and his big (if impractical) dreams. But of course the downside, as people have already pointed out, was that he was selfish and willful and emotionally immature. He craved attention, and most of the time he was the king of his little world and so was happy, but he sure didn't respond well to competition! Re: number of kids. It was hard to tell, because I think some of the children who hung around weren't Pettigrews (for example, Andrew's son and daughter were there a lot). I thought I finally counted five - two girls (Elspeth and the one with the long red hair), Fraser, and two brothers (since three boys went swimming in the loch with Edward).

(Sandy) I think his primary motivation for his pass at Heloise is one-up-manship with Morris, but what on earth would prompt this man to use this particular tactic. Keeping in mind I have only viewed 1 1/2 times so far, the feelings I captured in those moments in the moss were certain, definite and undeniable desire from Edward. (The poor man needed so lessons in suave.) He didn't have the calculating manner about him that would imply revenge. He did, as someone has earlier stated, show a childish jealously towards his son and the attention he had been receiving. Have I missed another aspect? (Rika) And sadly, he blows the moment all by himself. He gloats, and he shoots off his mouth about the "bet." One particular aspect of this scene has stayed with me, and I would go and review it now, but I have the VCR set to tape DQ, and I'm sure not gonna mess with that. So if I don't get it quite right, correct me. When everything begins to fall apart in the room, after the will is read, something happens with Fraser and both Morris and Heloise, (she actually grabs Fraser and pulls him away from Edward), tell him to stay away from his father. I find this a very provoking action. No one tells someone else's children to do that. Edward gets upset about it and rightly so. But, I wonder of Moira's POV. As the mother of the chld involved and the wife of the husband who has had a wandering eye towards the very woman who is grabbing your son, I would think she would have been urged said something to the effect, "Git your grimey paws off me boy." Sort of remarking her territory instinctually. I don't think she'd want Heloise around. :)))) Excellent comments everyone, too many to reply to. Much better than what I can offer. Thanks!!!!!!!

I'll have to watch the fight scene again, don't have time this AM (must work some time, sigh). But I recall that Edward does yell something about "let go of my son" or words to that effect. I wonder if it's meant as "unhand my child" or "get away from my rival"? I hadn't noticed how passive Moira was through the fight. But then, she's pretty passive/quiet throughout most of the film. And I hadn't noticed that until your comment, Lisa. Most of the time, she's overwhelmed/overshadowed by Edward's larger-than-life personality. Another comment on Morris and the estate. Early on, Fraser asks Morris if he has to do everything Gamma says. Morris says "yes," but you wonder if he really means it. Nice bit of foreshadowing--he WILL have to do what his mother says in her will, and let Edward and Moira have the estate.

This is intermission feature ********** I would like to share a MLSF experience...please bear with me. When we decided on MLSF as the movie to discuss, I shivered a little because it meant that I had to get out my copy of MLSF to review. I did not look forward to doing this because the tape is incomplete. It was incomplete because I started taping it at about 1 am Sydney time on Wed morning Sept 12 as it was being shown on our Fox cable tv. That was about 10 am Tuesday morning Sept 11 in New York. And we all know what happened at that time, on that day. :-( I kept switching back and forth bet the Fox cable channel showing MLSF and CNN the live news feeds of the horrible event that was taking place in NY at that time. My tape of MLSF has got the ticker messages at the bottom of the screen, spelling out news alerts on the tragedy as it took place. In the end, I felt ill doing what seemed such a frivolous thing as taping MLSF while this awful tragedy was unfolding that I stopped taping in the middle of the movie. That's how I ended up with an incomplete MLSF tape with "souvenir" ticker news alerts of a history making event. Bell is ringing - back to your seats ladies - the discussion of MLSF is about to resume soon. Thank you for your attention to the intermission feature.

Glad you like, Rika. I had another one prepared, but when I was watching the movie last night, I knew this had to be the one. I'd better jump in here quick! The discussion is already 15 pages long. I'll never catch up. :-(

Getting back to the fight scene, after the funeral-Heloise says to Fraser(after Edward tells him not to speak to an adult like that) "Don't listen to your father, he's a (blank) man". I have replayed this several times and cannot make out what she said. Does the DVD version have subtitles? Even though Edward does blow it after he reads the will...I love this exchange between Morris and Edward: Edward: This is my damned home and I'll be damned if I let you throw your weight around here any longer Morris: You're a shabby little lothario, you're a joke.(pow! right in the kisser) I see this as Edward's first sign of growing up, granted it was not done in the best of ways, but had he stood up for himself earlier against all of Morris's snide remarks, the anger and humiliation that drove him to taking the prize IMO that Morris valued most(child bride to boost his aging ego)might have not reached the boiling point. Better late than never.,I also think Heloise was another way that Morris might have wanted to degrade Edward-he wasn't blind-he could see that middle-age was setting in with his sister-but, I think this backfired on the two of them. (Lisa)I wonder of Moira's POV. As the mother of the chld involved and the wife of the husband who has had a wandering eye towards the very woman who is grabbing your son My thoughts on this are that Moira was trying to keep a lid on the whole mess, mainly the attraction between Edward and Heloise-probably because of the children, and perhaps, if you turn a blind eye-it will go away type of snydrome. After the fight, when she has her say to Edward(while he's still sitting on the floor)I notice that when she looks over at her children, she has a horrified look on her face. Almost as though this is the very thing she was trying to protect and now she has aired the dirty laundry in front of many people. One more thing about this whole scene- when Edward says "I won the bet months ago" that leads us back to the loft. What actually happened or didn't happen there. I won't open it up now in case we're not ready to go there yet. Loved the picture, Karen, glad to know my version is the same as everyone else's.

Thanks, Lisa and Rika, for your encouraging comments abt the kilt discussion. And Rika, great pics of the kilt scene. Thanks so much! I can see it more clearly now. That scene appeared rather dark on my DVD, and I could hardly see the kilt. Quite disappointed initially, as was hoping to see the kilt in its full glory ;-). (Linda)I have replayed this several times and cannot make out what she said. Does the DVD version have subtitles? Went back to that scene on my DVD. But what the sub-titles show is "Don't listen to your father, Fraser", and then its Edward's " Leave the...". Could see that Heloise was whispering to Fraser (agree with Lisa that Heloise should not be doing this at all, who does she thinks she is?) but I can't make it out either. One of the scenes which had me really LOL was when Fraser made his little speech abt how his mumsie and auntie could help in the charity drive. But regretted at having laughed so loud afterwards, when saw how upset Fraser was, perhaps thinking that he has made a fool of himself, and the adults were laughing at him. Guess it made me one of those nasty adults too. Agree with everyone abt how inappropriate the choice of actor for Uncle Morris was. I think he looks more like Edward's uncle then Fraser's uncle. Does it say in the book how old Uncle Morris was? Am really enjoying reading all these discussion. Thank you all!

Wow, Minkee, what a story! I have created a little piece of foolishness called "Edward Pettigrew Speaks Out on a Weighty Question". Here's the link: http://geocities.com/rika9150/cf/pettigrew.html (Linda)"Don't listen to your father, he's a (blank) man". I have replayed this several times and cannot make out what she said. Does the DVD version have subtitles? It does, but Heloise's dialogue isn't shown past "Don't listen to your father." I agree that Moira probably isn't happy about Fraser's closeness to Heloise. In fact, there's a scene early in the movie where she finds them together at the piano - Heloise is playing "Sunny Side of the Street" (it's the scene that ends in the "Red Red Rose" duet). Moira comes in, finds them together, and almost immediately puts her arms on Fraser's shoulders. I do think there's a "get away from my boy, you Jezebel" feel to it. But what about Heloise's behavior towards Fraser in a more general context? As in the quote Linda mentioned above, she sometimes encourages Fraser to disrespect his father (just as Morris does), and that's out of line. But she's also always touching Fraser and almost fondling him. Maybe it only bothers me because we know that Fraser is starting to understand sexuality, and Heloise is probably unaware of the effect she's having on him, but it makes me uncomfortable. (Lisa) Keeping in mind I have only viewed 1 1/2 times so far, the feelings I captured in those moments in the moss were certain, definite and undeniable desire from Edward. (The poor man needed so lessons in suave.) He didn't have the calculating manner about him that would imply revenge. He did, as someone has earlier stated, show a childish jealously towards his son and the attention he had been receiving. Have I missed another aspect? I'm with you, Lisa - I don't think he went after Heloise in any conscious attempt to strike out at Morris. I could see her desirability to Edward being enhanced by the fact that she "belonged" to Morris, but I think that was at an unconscious level. After she kisses Edward, the progression of his emotions is so interesting. At first he just looks stunned but eventually the intensity of desire is frightening - he looks somewhat menacing. Check out the difference between these two expressions. The first is almost immediately after she kisses him; the other is from a few seconds later, when he starts to move towards her: In fact, I think I get a vibe of not just desire but also anger from him. She tempts him, and since the temptation doesn't square with his beliefs, he has to blame someone - so he blames her. Does that make sense?

Thanks for good incites everybody and thanks to Rika for link. Good Job!! However I disagree with thoughts in loft. He is the aggressor in this. Not her. Edward asks for the kiss. She doesn't bestow it willingly. I got the impression she did it to quiet him so she could get out of there. She did not want his attentions. The attraction is obviously one sided and she did not fuel it. IMO she was trying to handle a very awkward situation, caused by him, in the simplest and quietest way she could. I wouldn't call her a tease to him in any regard. When he asks where his kiss is, like the one she gave Fraser she tells him Fraser is a child that's why she kissed him. It's all on him and was from the first time he laid eyes on her. Pure animal attraction on his part alone. Remember Moira has picked up on this from day one so by the time they have the fight at the reading of the will, that's the straw that broke the camel's back. She's embarrassed by his behavior in public number one, and hurt by his publicly mentioning his feelings about Heloise. It's been building up for a long time and she had to get it out. Edward just pushed too far and she'd had it. Heloise, if you notice, was always more comfortable with the children, including the girls, probably being so much younger than the adults, so I don't think her identifying with or turning to them was so far out of line. Morris could be her father/grandfather for that matter. She did try to relate to Moira a bit, and Gamma thought of her and addressed her as a child and Edward once she realized where he was coming from, she just wanted to ignore, so there really weren't too many people other than the kids she felt comfortable with. I doubt very much Morris chose her to get at Edward. He just wanted a young wife, and more than likely one who would produce heirs which was customary in those days. I don't think Edward was even given a thought when he chose Heloise. Can't say I blame Moira for blasting him the way she did. She was so angry and hurt, look at her face and eyes when she's pointing at him, everything else is uned out. He's the one who brought it out in public first and she lost it, understandably. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. He was lucky, although he was humiliated, albeit brought on by himself, she followed him and told him all she wanted was him publicly. So she allowed him to regain his dignity. He was a lucky man. Personally, I would have let him wallow in it for a week or so and let him be humiliated in front of people. He deserved it.

(Pam) However I disagree with thoughts in loft. He is the aggressor in this. Not her. Did someone suggest that she was the aggressor? I must have missed a post. I know some people have asked if Heloise might have been aware of Edward's interest and, if so, if she might have done anything to encourage him, but I didn't think anyone meant to suggest that she encouraged his behavior in the crucial scene. I agree with you - I think she kissed him reluctantly (and on the cheek), figuring it was relatively harmless and that if she granted his request he'd back down.

(Rika) But she's also always touching Fraser and almost fondling him. Maybe it only bothers me because we know that Fraser is starting to understand sexuality, and Heloise is probably unaware of the effect she's having on him, but it makes me uncomfortable. It bothered me too and I was waiting to see where it was going to go. Perhaps it did what the director intended, showed the viewer Edward's jealousy towards his own son at the attention he received from her. It is also interesting that the one child Heloise relates to most is the boy on the verge of puberty as opposed to the girls who are closer to her own age. But, I did find her degree of touching over the top.

Cute MLSF page, Rika. I'll never catch up.But all the comments are fascinating. Pl. continue. I'm lurking.

Rika! I love your page on His Pudginess and am very appreciative of the way you've dived in to provide visual aids to stimulate the discussion. Big hand of applause to everybody here, as I attempt to catch up without being redundant. (BTW, Rika, I need one of Edward's fine, slim form casting the line back, sans kiddies, to illustrate GSD.) *wink wink*

Hello, I'm Kathy and I'm delurking (hopefully). Karen has tried so hard to help me log in that I feel I must post something. First, I believe Heloise said, "Don't listen to your father, Fraser. He's a silly man." Unless my old ears were deceiving me. Secondly, I agree with everyone who thinks that Edward is not motivated by anything other than pure attraction, when it comes to his reaction to Heloise. We first see Heloise playing the cello, and Edward looks like a man who has just fallen hard and fast. Fraser later says, "I've fallen head over heels with Heloise. I think everybody has." It seemed that the only people who didn't succumb to Heloise's charms were Moira and Gamma. Which brings me to the subject of Morris. Heloise may be marrying him for money, but I believe Morris is in love. When Fraser was in the kitchen, he repeated what he'd been told of Morris' first meeting Heloise, and how Morris proposed the next day over cream tea. If Heloise was only a trophy wife to Morris, I don't believe he would have told a bunch of boys such a romantic story. Lastly, thanks to Rika for the great pudgy page! I only wish you had included the scene at the start of the movie, where Edward is running up the stairs on his way to rescue Fraser. Rear views are fun, too. :-)

(FanPam)I doubt very much Morris chose her to get at Edward. He just wanted a young wife, and more than likely one who would produce heirs which was customary in those days. I don't think Edward was even given a thought when he chose Heloise It was me who suggested that Heloise was another way that Morris used to put Edward down-I agree with your statement, but I'm coming from the POV that once he had chosen Heloise and brought her to Kiloran-it was another way to flaunt something else in Edward's face-far more subtly than the blatant verbal encounters. Edward, I think, picked up on this-but because of his childlike way of dealing with things-just plowed on ahead blindly, and almost blew the very things that were most important to him.

WELCOME, KATHY glad you're here. I enjoyed your post, and it gives me an opportunity to thank Rika for that wonderful page.(I need to thank her so she doesn't stop sending me wonderful pictures) Yes, I agree, I think Morris is in love with Heloise-and Edward knows it. It makes the bet all the more revengeful on his part. Who can forget the look Edward gives her upon their first meeting when she is playing the cello. I think he was truly attracted to her-physically, but I also believe there was a motivation there to get at Morris. Going after Heloise satisfied both.

(Linda) I think he was truly attracted to her-physically, but I also believe there was a motivation there to get at Morris. Going after Heloise satisfied both. IMO Edward was infatuated with Heloise...young, beautiful, French..,but he doesn't strike me as a calculating type ; childlike, yes.

(Evelyn)Edward was infatuated with Heloise...young, beautiful, French..,but he doesn't strike me as a calculating type ; childlike, yes infatuated-yes childlike-yes calculating-NO-but sick of being of being humiliated by Morris-probably for years. I guess it's because of the exchange at the curling match that makes me think Edward-though infatuated, from the outset, had something else going on. After several exchanges about what they would bet, Edward: Whats the millionaire got that he wouldn't want to loose...What means more to you than anything else? Morris: I suppose you're referring to my wife? Edward: What makes you think she's yours to bet, Morris? At this point, the loft encounter has already happened-so Edward knows exactly what he's doing.

(Rika)She tempts him, and since the temptation doesn't square with his beliefs, he has to blame someone - so he blames her. Does that make sense? Perfect sense, and it squares with the line he throws at Fraser just before the mail comes bearing the catalog..."Auntie Heloise is particularly French, and French ladies don't understand the first thing about moral fiber." It's interesting to me that Moira seems to be perfectly willing to let well enough alone until his attraction explodes in public, and then she doesn't scruple to bring it up in front of the children. She's either really angry or really sick of it. Welcome Kathy, do stick around!

(Kathy) I only wish you had included the scene at the start of the movie, where Edward is running up the stairs on his way to rescue Fraser. Rear views are fun, too. :-) I dunno, just a guess, but I'm thinking you'll fit right in! Welcome Kathy! As for MLSF, much of what I would say would be ditto but most especially to the (paraphrased) comment about this being a dual coming of age story....Fraser's obvious one and Edward's less obvious one. I've watched the movie twice and will watch again and follow along and if anything occurs to me that will astound the room, I'll pipe right up.

I'm surprised (for some reason) that no one has mentioned re the "competition" between Fraser and Edward for Heloise's attention, the scene before the loft when Edward and Fraser are showing Heloise around the moss fields(?). It was amusing, but sad actually, that Edward felt so threatened by Fraser that he had to physically shove him out of the way to get next to her as they were walking.

Excellent link Rika...thanks very much, you are a clever girl. Now, I was expecting to roll in here tonight and see a very special pic of some bonny fine lads in kilts. In fact, I already had mine, lad that is, picked out! Where did it go???? :P

I'm glad some of you enjoyed my photo essay on His Svelteness. I can't tell you what a hardship it was going through the movie, analyzing his physique to find appropriate shots! 8-) (KathyF) I only wish you had included the scene at the start of the movie, where Edward is running up the stairs on his way to rescue Fraser. Rear views are fun, too. :-) I agree about rear views, and I'd recommend the swimsuit photo on my page to all the tush connoisseurs out there - the lower part of the suit clings very nicely. Unfortunately, Kathy, the stair-climbing scene doesn't lend itself well to video capture - the lighting is dim, and he's moving so fast that he's blurred in most frames. But Linda will tell you I'm a sucker for photo requests, so how about a ladder-climbing photo instead? Consider it a little gift of welcome to our little loony bin: http://home.mindspring.com/~mamartin/pics/ladder.jpg (Karen)(BTW, Rika, I need one of Edward's fine, slim form casting the line back, sans kiddies, to illustrate GSD.) *wink wink* I'll see what I can do - watch your e-mail.

Let me try that again. The link works but I meant to post the image and not a link:

(Lisa) Now, I was expecting to roll in here tonight and see a very special pic of some bonny fine lads in kilts. In fact, I already had mine, lad that is, picked out! Check response 233.... unless I'm misunderstanding you. Janet, are you still reading? You're the perfect person to ask one question I had: how are the non-Scottish actors' accents?

Ah, Rika, those were great, but the one I'm thinking of is a special treat. I think though, that a magical question has to be asked, so here goes....... What do Scotish men wear under their kilts???????? (Tapping foot, waiting for some visual evidence.....)

(hoary old joke) So, what really is worn under the kilt? 'Nothing is worn, everything is in perfect working order!' This young man deserves hazardous duty pay, IMO. To get back on the topic at hand...I suppose it's a good thing those scenes were shot indoors? :)

That brings up and excellent question and a way to get the subject diverted, even momentarily, into the gutter. When portraying Edward, just how authenic did CF go with the role? By that I mean, did he wear his kilt as a true Scot would?????

(LindaK) I'm coming from the POV that once he had chosen Heloise and brought her to Kiloran-it was another way to flaunt something else in Edward's face-far more subtly than the blatant verbal encounters. Edward even kind of called Morris on it: "You breeze in here with your exotic child fiancee less than half your age and you throw your weight around." Morris later on threw the words back in Edward's face by introducing Heloise to his friends as "my exotic child fiancee" (with a big smirk at Edward, of course). I guess it's because of the exchange at the curling match that makes me think Edward-though infatuated, from the outset, had something else going on. By then I think he did. Until after the moss factory incident I think his behavior towards Heloise was driven by his libido, his craving for attention, and very little else. But afterwards, I think it began to dawn on him that he now had some ammunition that could hurt Morris. (Elizabeth S, about Edward possibly blaming Heloise for tempting him) Perfect sense, and it squares with the line he throws at Fraser just before the mail comes bearing the catalog..."Auntie Heloise is particularly French, and French ladies don't understand the first thing about moral fiber." That's right - I had forgotten about that. And Linda mentioned a little background head-shake of disapproval he gives her at the dinner table too, when she starts baiting him. (Lisa) What do Scotish men wear under their kilts???????? (Tapping foot, waiting for some visual evidence.....) I thought "Braveheart" settled that question once and for all! :-D

Thank you, Kate, for all the background on sphagnum moss. Having worked at a florist during college, I remember it well. And thank you, Janet, for the kilt/tartan explanation. You see, ladies, you are not wasting time here. It is highly educational. Sorry, we don't give out college equivalency credits. ;-) And welcome, Kathy, glad to see you've jumped in or as Edward would say, "taken a cold plunge." Is excellent advice whether you're having unwholesome thoughts (or see nekkid pics) or just playing with us here on Drool. I'm going to try my best to catch up without being redundant or saying I agree with all the wonderful and insightful comments you all have made. And they have been great. Lengthy, but great. On the Edward-Morris dynamic, I tend to view Edward as trying to prove himself master of Kiloran, even though he was not. As the oldest son, Morris would be in that position and loves to lord it over Edward. Plus Morris is a highly successful businessman, Edward is quite the opposite. He's a dreamer, not a pragmatist like Morris. He's a child, not a responsible adult like Morris. But more importantly, Edward epitomizes family, whereas Morris has gone off and leads another life away from them. True, Gamma sees the differences in Morris and Edward and knows that Morris doesn't need Kiloran, but that doesn't mean (as she says herself to Fraser) that they wouldn't be adequately taken care of in her will. She chooses Edward IMO because he needs it more than Morris and will maintain it in the same manner as her dearly departed Samuel. (Evelyn) What in the world did Heloise see in Morris? (Elizabeth) IMO, a father figure; she allows him to call her his 'child bride' I'm going to be a cynic here and say she'd be drawn by his wealth and lifestyle, a Sugar Daddy. I don't think their shared interest in music was enough. ;-) (Evelyn) Do you think there was a class distinction here? I read the book, but I don't remember if Sir Denis Forman's family were upper crust. Yes, they were. Too tired to look it up though right now. (Linda) A little digression into expressions. I love the one at the dinner table...when Eloise and Edward are sparring about morals and christianity. There are so many incredibly expressive, though subtle, moments in this film and, in rewatching, I am more than awestruck at how wonderful the acting is by everyone and especially by Colin. (Evelyn) And what do you all make of Gabriel, Emperor of the Air? How did he fit into the story? And that bizarre "Hairy Man" popping in... (Kate) I think Gabriel is there for irony. (Rika) On the Hairy Man, I wonder if that made more sense before the several rounds of editing the film supposedly went through after production. I think both roles suffered tremendously in the editing room so that they now have little if any relevance. But it would seem they were supposed to be symbolic. Gabriel is the air/sky/heaven, which is pure fantasy and delightful to Fraser, while the Hairy Man is the earth (he often comes out of the ground, buried under leaves) and the realities and fears that go along with it. (Rika) I found myself paying more attention to Edward/Morris than to anything else. Their antagonistic relationship is fascinating (and occasionally very subtle), plus it's fun to see two fine actors squaring off against one another. I had the same thought. MMcD is a very fine actor and Colin really holds his own playing against him in scene after scene. In fact (despite other disparaging comments we make on other topics re: MEM and wallpaper), MEM is an excellent actress as well. Her brief scene in front of the mirror, sucking in her stomach, pulling that jacket tight, while speaking a few words of French, encapsulates everything she is feeling brilliantly. (Elizabeth) I love the actor who plays the Emperor of the air, BTW...he's worth checking out if you encounter him in other productions. I've seen him in a number of things, but most recently I saw him in Greenfingers, playing a drug dealer, where his romantic interest is Brenda Blethyn. And in this he's interested in Kelly McDonald, who is young enough to be his daughter. Eowww! (Elizabeth) This strikes me as the story of not one, but two males growing up, one a child and the other long since a legal, if not an emotional, adult. Absolutely. (Linda) [Heloise] Was she totally in the dark about Edward's attraction to her? I don't think so. I think she was a bit of a tease. Oh, there you go again! ;-) (Linda) Perhaps she's made to look really bad on purpose. The dowdy, approaching middle-aged mother of 8 or 9 with a husband that is still very good looking. Brings out the attraction of Edward to Eloise a bit stronger to the audience as well as to Moira. True, but is that not the reality, especially of that time? A woman who has had that many kids is going look a little worse for wear. But I think her own self image--as inferior to Heloise--is more critical than whether we understand the source of Edward's attraction. He's a man. It is natural. No further explanations are necessary. ;-) (Pam) Most really intelligent people such as Edward lack people skills, i.e. maturity, common sense...It's just that they are so into their own little world of inventing, and discovery that they seem to ignore the every-day, which would retard emotional growth. I like this observation very much as to the source of Edward's immaturity. He's a geek. (Lisa) I find this a very provoking action. No one tells someone else's children to do that. Edward gets upset about it and rightly so. Both Morris and Heloise are undermining Edward's authority with his own children, which is inexcusable. (Lisa) But, I wonder of Moira's POV....I would think she would have...said something to the effect, "Git your grimey paws off me boy...:)))) Too grief stricken to care about her boy, well, that boy in particular. (Linda) Morris: You're a shabby little lothario, you're a joke....I see this as Edward's first sign of growing up, granted it was not done in the best of ways Hmmm, can't say I agree here. Edward is merely showing off. He's won. More childlike behavior IMO. Even when Moira's long finger is pointing accusingly at him, I didn't see any maturity in his response, which was to walk out. (Andie) Does it say in the book how old Uncle Morris was? The book is nonfiction; so there's not an Uncle Morris per se. (Rika) But she's [Heloise] also always touching Fraser and almost fondling him. Maybe it only bothers me because we know that Fraser is starting to understand sexuality, and Heloise is probably unaware of the effect she's having on him, but it makes me uncomfortable. Me too, but I'm not sure Heloise knows what's going on in Fraser's mind, that he's obsessed with learning about sex. Most of that occurs before his prostitution-for-charity faux pas. (Kathy). It seemed that the only people who didn't succumb to Heloise's charms were Moira and Gamma. Not surprising. Women know women. Men are just taken in. Elspeth's view is more like a sister's because of their close proximity in age. (Kathy) If Heloise was only a trophy wife to Morris, I don't believe he would have told a bunch of boys such a romantic story. Very good point; I agree that Morris was in love with Heloise. (Kathy) where Edward is running up the stairs on his way to rescue Fraser. Rear views are fun, too. :-) They most certainly are. Colin does some of his finest work running up stairs and there's a dedicated fan club for those scenes here. (Linda) I'm coming from the POV that once he had chosen Heloise and brought her to Kiloran-it was another way to flaunt something else in Edward's face-far more subtly than the blatant verbal encounters. I didn't equate this with anything ominous or devious. He brought his fianc�e home to meet mother and to get her blessing. Remember, he was rather nervous about approaching mom with the news during the cello recital. (Elizabeth) It's interesting to me that Moira seems to be perfectly willing to let well enough alone until his attraction explodes in public, and then she doesn't scruple to bring it up in front of the children. She's either really angry or really sick of it. Even though that is a rather showy scene for MEM, I've never bought Moira's actions. Seems totally out of character for her to confront him in public. People like her do not do such things in front of friends and relatives even if they are grief-stricken. (Dorine) re the "competition" between Fraser and Edward for Heloise's attention...when Edward and Fraser are showing Heloise around the moss fields(?). It was amusing, but sad actually, that Edward felt so threatened by Fraser that he had to physically shove him out of the way to get next to her as they were walking. I think that scene is wonderful. Father competing with son, although the more typical is son competing with father. Then later, up in the mossloft, Edward tells Fraser to get lost, which you can almost hear in a W.C. Fields-type voice. (Rika) I can't tell you what a hardship it was going through the movie, analyzing his physique to find appropriate shots! 8-) You bear your burden very well. ;-) (Rika) how are the non-Scottish actors' accents? When I first saw the movie (many years ago), I thought he only used it when he was talking to the locals. But now I hear a very subtle burr in many places; he's more consistent than I thought. He brings out the more pronounced accent again when he's preaching from the pulpit. From my understanding, the upper class Scots did not have the thick burr we usually expect. Love the pic, Elizabeth!

Phew!! Am now caught up and didn't miss a tag. Feel like I've really accomplished something today. Making tick mark on checklist.

(Karen) Colin does some of his finest work running up stairs With those long legs he can take two or three steps at a time, and it's a thing to behold. For some reason this reminds me of one of Eddie Murphy's lines as the Donkey in "Shrek." He's trying to locate a particular staircase, and he says to himself, "Yeah, I'm gonna master those stairs. I'm the Stairmaster." That's ODB - the Stairmaster. In fact (despite other disparaging comments we make on other topics re: MEM and wallpaper), MEM is an excellent actress as well. Did I pick up somewhere that she gave some interview or other that ticked people off? There seems to be a negative vibe about her here and I've never been clear on the reasons. Her brief scene in front of the mirror, sucking in her stomach, pulling that jacket tight, while speaking a few words of French, encapsulates everything she is feeling brilliantly. Poor dear - she just keeps saying, "Enchante" while she looks at herself. Very poignant. And speaking of MEM, she can really sing. I won't yammer on about the potential vocal traps in that song - it's harder to sing well than you might think - but I was impressed. She's obviously had extensive vocal training. Anyway, it's nice to encounter an actor/actress in a movie who sings so well (no disrespect to CF and RE intended - they weren't supposed to sound good :-D).

Great Incites Ladies, Rika you are amazing!! Elizabeth, Outrageous!! Thank you so much. Under kilts, I dated a man in an Irish Bag-Pipe Band once. He wore regular jockeys and his sister's slip because the wool was itchy. Also one St. Patricks night I was working in the local diner when the bands came in from the NYC parade. One drummer stood up to show me what he wore under his kilt and I was prepared for a pleasant surprise only to find that he had a pair of bicycle shorts on underneath. Must say I was very disappointed. We had a good laugh though, but he did offer to show me what was really under there at another place and time. Those were fun nights to work. I think it was necessary for Moira to come out of her expected behavior to show just how upset and disappointed in him she was. She had had enough. Remember she not only had feelings for her husband, but the fight was with her brother whom she obviously cared for and on top of everything else she had just lost her mother, so to say she was in control of her actions and able to act as she normally would, I think would be expecting too much from her under the circumstances. I know I would not be my normal self in that situation. Also it made the audience aware of exactly how upset she was which was necessary for the story line. If she remained in character the audience wouldn't feel her reactions. She did a good job! Also it was already made public by Edward so at this point she couldn't squash it any more and just let herself go. I think it was necessary. If she hadn't released her anger at that time, she might not have gone to him and told him she wanted him which would have really complicated thin s and possibly ended it all. Remember in the Wedding movie the look on her face when Edward is taking her picture and she looks at him. She's really fed up then. So it had to come out and the fight was what did it. I'd say when she let loose she wasn't aware of anyone else in the room except Edward. After she exploded then she thought about what she had done. Good Job!! I love Fraser. Not to go off topic but has anyone seen him in anything else? What a good job he did. He reminds me of my sons. How old was he when they shot this film?

(Karen)Sorry, we don't give out college equivalency credits. ;-) WOT????? I recall some post-graduate degrees being offered on 162... Kathy) It seemed that the only people who didn't succumb to Heloise's charms were Moira and Gamma. (Karen) Not surprising. Women know women. Men are just taken in. Well said! Gamma didn't miss much, did she? Speaking of Gamma, I find it funny that, when Fraser goes into her room while she's asleep, she's more concerned about her mouth than being seen in her undergarments. Does she have her teeth out? (I can't see a glass on the nightstand.) Also, Fraser's worries about being thrown out by Morris when Gamma dies reminded me of Mrs. Bennet in P&P worrying about "those Collinses" throwing them out.

Rika Regarding the authenticity of accents. CF's is actually very good. The scenes with the locals were Edward's attempts at 'being one of them'. But some actors try too hard. MEM to me sounded more Irish than Scots. - And MMcD was pretty hopeless, too. RH as Gamma's accent was OK. I think she was very good in the role which makes up for any shortcomings in the accent. Most of the other roles were taken by homegrown Scots, which is a refreshing change, and it WAS filmed in Scotland!! - Not like some other higher profile movies I could mention!!! And, yes, NOTHING should be worn under the kilt. BTW, I do love this film. -And ODB looks at his absolute best IMHO. Great discussion ladies, and I love the snappies. You clever people!!

(Karen) But I think her own self image--as inferior to Heloise--is more critical than whether we understand the source of Edward's attraction. Bundled up in this self image thing were the comments about the musical career put aside to marry and have babies. Ironic that when Edward's attentions do stray, it is to the accomplished Heloise. How much more galling to Moira? (Karen)Seems totally out of character for her to confront him in public. People like her do not do such things in front of friends and relatives even if they are grief-stricken. I too had a sense as I watched that "that would not have happened." Maybe everyone stood and watched paralyzed with horror but I'm thinking most everyone would have been wishing themselves anywhere else and trying to get there as everything disintegrated. I saw it more as a cinematic device to highlight the breach and drive home the point that *this* time Edward's folly would not be glossed over. (Rika) That's ODB - the Stairmaster. Count me part of stairs fan club! I give extra points for boots or especially long, lean looks in Regency dress with tails flying!

(Karen)Gamma sees the differences in Morris and Edward and knows that Morris doesn't need Kiloran, but that doesn't mean (as she says herself to Fraser) that they wouldn't be adequately taken care of in her will. She chooses Edward IMO because he needs it more than Morris and will maintain it in the same manner as her dearly departed Samuel. Gamma's favorite was Fraser( did he remind her of Samuel who had acquired all those books;-)and by leaving Kiloran to Edward & Moira ,Fraser would eventually be the heir to Kiloran.That's MO anyway. MEM is an excellent actress and vocalist. She will play Dulcinea in the musical Don Quijote directed by Jonathan Kent next year on B'way. Rika MEM & CF gave an interview in German Vogue in which she was v. critical of America and our way of life. We were not enchanted . Welcome to the stairs club, Rika.

The German Vogue article is here: http://www.spring.net/karenr/articles/vogue_ger1001.html (I was ashamed of her, especially as she's from the Chicago burbs and has a lot of relatives here. I felt like sending the article to the local papers.)

(Rika) She's obviously had extensive vocal training. Even operatic. She also sang in "Limbo" and had originally pursued a singing career. (Pam) so to say she was in control of her actions and able to act as she normally would, I think would be expecting too much from her under the circumstances. I know I would not be my normal self in that situation. But we have to keep in mind the time and place. Moira was from an upper-class family and they were trained to behave in certain ways. One didn't make scenes. One didn't show one's feelings under any circumstance. However, I do agree that it was done purely for cinematic effect and that she did a great job. (Pam) Remember in the Wedding movie the look on her face when Edward is taking her picture and she looks at him. She's really fed up then. Yes, if looks could kill. Speaking of which, did it look like Edward noticed? Fraser certainly did, but I don't recall if Edward was cognizant of that look. Must recheck. (Pam) I'd say when she let loose she wasn't aware of anyone else in the room except Edward. But she referred to her children in her accusation, so I think she was very much aware of who was there. (Pam) Not to go off topic but has anyone seen him in anything else? I'd have to check my files, but I thought I'd read that this was a one-shot thing for him (per his parents) at least for the present. This is from the presskit: "Hugh Hudson and David Puttnam knew needed a child with unusual maturity and effortless craft to play Fraser Pettigrew, whose wide-eyed and shockingly wise epiphanies fill the story of MLSF. They found both in 11-year-old Robbie Norman, an Edinburgh schoolboy who had never acted professionally before. (Kate) WOT????? I recall some post-graduate degrees being offered on 162... True, but that's on 162. ;-) Speaking of Gamma, I find it funny that, when Fraser goes into her room while she's asleep, she's more concerned about her mouth than being seen in her undergarments. Does she have her teeth out? No kidding!! Yes, she is covering her mouth because her teeth must be out. But come on, she's wearing a Wagnerian (Brunhilde) type of undergarment that could easily put Fraser's eyes out. (Janet) Most of the other roles were taken by homegrown Scots, which is a refreshing change, and it WAS filmed in Scotland!! Very true. I'll never forget being contacted by the guy who coached them on the finer points of curling and who is actually in the movie as well. (BarbS) Ironic that when Edward's attentions do stray, it is to the accomplished Heloise. How much more galling to Moira? Great observation. Music is an important element of all their lives, yet she was unable to pursue it because of marriage and children.

Thanks for information on Fraser Karen. He was only 11 and untrained!! I'm all astonishment. He's a natural. Parents seem to be very smart and caring of him. Have to respect that. What a great job. And so mature. I thought he was older than that. Most 11 year olds I know would have been giggling about the sexual content so much they wouldn't have been productive. Love comments about Gammas undergarment. Can just imagine what Fraser is thinking. The saving grace was that he was afraid she was dead which may have occupied him enough to not think about what she had on. I prefer CF with a little weight on. When he's too lean his elbows and knees are too angular and hurt my ribs when we snuggle. Love him in this movie and FP as well. Don't feel he's "porked-up" at all. It looks good on him. He's so tall that he can carry it off and the pants don't look so baggy either. Prefer him this way. Personally did not care for MEM's article at all. She was very unkind to her homeland and didn't feel comments like that were necessary. Also IMO do not see any real chemistry between CF and her, just going through the motions, but must admit she can act and sing. I wonder if they looosen up when they're socializing. I bet CF felt comfortable with leading lady who was a friend though. As I have stated before there is no man on the face of this planet who can take a flight of stairs like CF. He is the ULTIMATE STAIRMASTER. No one will ever equal.

(Evelyn) MEM & CF gave an interview in German Vogue in which she was v. critical of America and our way of life. We were not enchanted . (Karen) ..(I was ashamed of her, especially as she's from the Chicago burbs and has a lot of relatives here. I felt like sending the article to the local papers.) I thought that we stressed on this board that people were allowed to have opposing opinions without aspersions being cast on them personally. I heard MEM on Regis explaining how she found her husband's environments of London and Ireland much more conducive and pleasant to raising her children than had been NewYork and suburbs. I could understand that. I think she should be allowed to express that preference, and to dislike certain aspects of suburban culture. I think a lot of that article was out of context, and willfully interpreted at this end as her being Un- or anti-American, and this had then been used as an excuse to put down her character. I didn't see it in the article. And even if she truly said negative things about US culture, she should be allowed to hold those opinions and express them ... I can think of all sorts of things in our culture that I have negative feelings about, too. I don't think that calls for one's character to be dumped on on a public board. IMHO, of course. :-)

Well, I had to have a look at that interview. I can really relate to one of her comments. One can live very comfortably in the United States, but when one leaves, it�s hard to return. I see the extremes in the country much more distinctly right now... Ditto, I'm afraid, on both counts! This is not unlike the remarks that CF made recently about his uneducated fellow countrymen or his little foray into pommy polictics. This President! How can George W. Bush eliminate the Kyoto Treaty when he leads the nation that is the biggest polluter? An obvious offending bit...Besides, you couldn�t pay me enough to live in an American suburb, talking current wallpaper patterns with my interior decorator all day. Surely you could talk annuals and perennials to the gardener and the dinner menu to the cook just to break up the day! Sorry, that was catty. But irresistable. ;) Professionally, it was perhaps a mistake to move to London, but I love the city. One has to choose. I cannot give everything 100 percent. Now when I work, I get more enjoyment out of our profession. Everything is so easy. Someone brings me coffee. I don�t have to do anything myself. Comment. I was under the impression that this type of service was heaped upon actors on sets all over the world, not just in the UK.

willfully interpreted ??? Since when are you inside our heads... Moving along...:) I have found two characters--Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice--rather perplexing. Does anybody have a sense of their blood relation? At times, I've thought it was Eunice (she's a basket case on the sofa after the funeral) but then again it might be Uncle Crawford, who has flashes of being like a son, helping Gamma. You see his reaction when Gamma falls through the ice and he shouts something like "help her" in a very take-charge way.

(KJ)I don't think that calls for one's character to be dumped on on a public board. We can have opinions about her comments to the foreign media too ,KJ. Oddly enough, she's coming back to this country where she wouldn't live for work($$$)...why doesn't she just go work in the West End. And it wasn't her character we were dumping...I don't know anything about her morality etc. It was her comments .

(Pam) Under kilts, I dated a man in an Irish Bag-Pipe Band once. He wore regular jockeys and his sister's slip.... Well that's an interesting tidbit of information ;-) (Karen) Not surprising. Women know women. Men are just taken in. Very well illustrated in SC and your GSD as well. (MEM) Everything is so easy. Someone brings me coffee. I don�t have to do anything myself. NOW I understand why the path to my eternal happiness and piece of mind is blocked...I actually have to get MY OWN coffee, as well as the live with the horror of cooking my own meals, doing my own laundry, getting dressed myself. Now if I could only find my Prozac...and cheap help ;-D While reading other people's comments about the article, I remembered that she annoyed me too with her comments, but couldn't remember specifics, until this one was brought up. (Elizabeth) I love the actor who plays the Emperor of the air, BTW...he's worth checking out if you encounter him in other productions. (Karen) I've seen him in a number of things, but most recently I saw him in Greenfingers, playing a drug dealer, where his romantic interest is Brenda Blethyn. Karen, you mean Saving Grace? Did it have a different title somewhere else? Very funny little movie! He was also good in La Femme Nikita (the foreign film, not the show) and the little bit he was in The Patriot. Also, was Kiloran shut off news-wise from the rest of the world. How did Edward not know that a plane had been invented already? It didn't spring up overnight. (Rika) That's ODB - the Stairmaster What an apropos comment...I was just checking the board before heading to the gym to get on my favorite machine....THE STAIRMASTER! It's always a great workout, makes ya sweat! I've only used the one version...maybe I should get on a different model to see if I still get a good workout ;-D.

You ladies are terrific and so thorough in your discussion of MLSF! There was a lot of catching up I had to do yesterday and today (from being away), and I felt I had to watch the film again since you all had brought forth so many things I had missed during my first and second viewings last week. Thanks, Rika, for your page on why we ought to appreciate His Svelteness just as he is ;-). Thanks, Kate, for your explanation of sphagnum moss. When Edward and Fraser are having their sex discussion and Fraser responds to his dad talking about the feeling of something welling up from the core of your being by asking, "Like magma?" (Which Andrew had told him about). Edward then answers, "What'ssmagma?" He slurs the words together and it sounds like he says sphagma. Are all these terms related in some way: sphagma, magma, sphagnum? And what exactly is Edward trying to get his three boys to clean by jumping in the freezing lake? (His youngest son declares to him that he's already clean and doesn't need to jump in). Edward says in his frozen voice while treading in the frozen lake something like, "Crustination only intensifies the sensation of stuck (?) loins." Could that be smegma? ;-) (which, btw, is defined in the dictionary as detergent, soap, or ungent). Somehow they all seem related. Thanks, Janet, for explaining kilts, tartans, and the authenticity of the Scottish accents. Glad to know you think CF's is well done. (Elizabeth) This strikes me as the story of not one, but two males growing up, one a child and the other long since a legal, if not an emotional, adult. This struck me the second time I watched it. I even think the last name they chose for the family is very apt as well: Pettigrew. When broken down it could be shown to mean small growth or petite spurts - bit by bit, like Fraser says at the end of the film about Edward being let back into his mother's heart again. Thanks, btw, Elizabeth, for the revealing kilt pic ;-). And thanks, Pam, for solving the mystery of what some wear underneath ;-). One more question: Does anyone know the connection to the film's dedication to the memory of Ian Charleson in the ending credits? He was a wonderful actor, for sure (and of Scottish decent I believe), and he played the famous Scot, Eric Liddel, in "Chariots of Fire" (and got an Oscar nomination for that role as well, I think). Was he related to anyone from the movie, MLSF? I think he died of AIDS, but long before 1999 when MLSF was made. Thanks also, Karen, for the background information on Robbie Forman who played Fraser. He was excellent, and his portrayal pulled at my heart strings during so many moments of the film. Will view film again and report back later. Want to view it again to examine Heloise's and Morris's pivotal roles.

Dorine, you're absolutely right. Saving Grace, not Greenfingers, both British gardening movies. ;-) The dedication to Ian Charleson is because MLSF was made by the same team as Chariots of Fire: Hugh Hudson directed and David Puttnam produced. Good to see you here, Lora. Was wondering where you were. :)

(Rika) That's ODB - the Stairmaster Those last scenes when he's on his way up to find Fraser...Breath-taking. I am amazed that most of us here get hooked on that action. Climbing stairs. He is the sexiest stairmaster there is. Funny how different films flash in your head when he does those very familiar moves. I immediately thought BJD. (Karen)Oh, there you go again! ;-) I know, I bet you think I've mixed up Heloise and Helena. Ok, I'll stick my neck out...does anyone else think that something other than just a kiss happened in the loft? My reason for confusion, you ask? Although we are not shown anything except a hasty kiss on the cheek why does everything else point to other things ocurring? Does all of this blow up because Edward wanted a kiss and got one on the cheek? At the dinner table Heloise's remarks "You can't do a bad thing and be a good man, you can't have it both ways." Ok, maybe she is equating bad with the fact that he was attracted to her and behaving in a bad way for a married man. The curling scene that I mentioned yesterday (Edward) "What's the millionaire got that he wouldn't want to loose...What means more to you than anything else? Kind of a strange remark if you got nothing more than a reluctant kiss-she goes off to marry Morris, and have a honeymoon anyway. The note she sends to Edward while she and Morris are on there honeymoon: "All I want is to be your sister-in-law and your friend. Please let us forget what happened and what didn't happen. No one needs to know". What does she mean by "what happened and didn't happen"? No one needs to know? Know what? That he had an attraction and she gave him a peck on the cheek? And finally Edward's words at the funeral: "I won the bet months ago." Some heavy duty dialogue, actions, and ominous words for a kiss on the cheek. Have I missed something? Edward may be a child, but I think even he, after 8,9, or 10 children knows the difference.

(Karen)The dedication to Ian Charleson is because MLSF was made by the same team as Chariots of Fire: Hugh Hudson directed and David Puttnam produced. Thanks for clearing that up! I didn't know who directed CoF. Maybe now I can get my DH to view MLSF next time around since CoF is his all time favorite movie. That should be "descent" above not "decent" though Ian was a very decent actor, too. Just wanted to say that I love the way everyone uses the terms "mumsie" and "gamma." And I love Rosemary Harris's portrayal of Gamma. Her facial expressions are wonderful. I also love that Edward's mother-in-law n the movie is Jennifer Ehle's mom IRL :-). It's very funny how Edward and his crew eat the asbestos when it arrives. Edward seems to dig into anything new that appears at Kiloran and with a childlike fearlessness. Moira seems to have always let him indulge himself and let him do what he wants with his ideas and materials. I think Edward just thinks of Heloise as one of those things to "examine." Though, he learns later, he goes too far here.

(linda)Some heavy duty dialogue, actions, and ominous words for a kiss on the cheek. Have I missed something? Edward may be a child, but I think even he, after 8,9, or 10 children knows the difference. This is one of the things that drives me crazy about this movie. it all doesnt seem to add up correctly. (Lora)Edward seems to dig into anything new that appears at Kiloran and with a childlike fearlessness. Moira seems to have always let him indulge himself and let him do what he wants with his ideas and materials. I think Edward just thinks of Heloise as one of those things to "examine." Though, he learns later, he goes too far here. I can see this -

SBRobinsonThis is one of the things that drives me crazy about this movie. It all doesn't seem to add up correctly. I seem to remember that the film was heavily edited, many thought unnecessarily, and its release delayed for over a year. I believe one of the main scenes to suffer was the barn scene,creating so much confusion over what actually took place. It certainly has been a major talking point on this board before!!

(Lora) Edward says in his frozen voice while treading in the frozen lake something like, "Crustination only intensifies the sensation of stuck (?) loins." "Procrastination only intensifies the sense of shock, boys." Love that caption option. (Lora) Fraser responds..."Like magma?" It almost seemed to me that Edward didn't know what magma was, very odd for a man with such a store of inventor's curiosity. There's a definite correlation with the granite source of the curling stones, which gets brought up twice that I can think of. I have wondered when the theory of plate tectonics first came out, though! In re the barn, I think Edward tried for more (the shriek) and didn't get it (the letter, "what did and didn't happen".) FWIW, my brother lived overseas for four years, grew quite negative about certain aspects of US culture while he was gone, had a pretty rough period of adjustment on his return, and still despises many of the more commercial aspects. I always thought it was because they got subjected to almost daily reruns of "Dallas" in their search for news on TV. :)

I just read the German Vogue article for the first time and didn't think it too awful, except for the generalizations about America and Americans, by both CF and MEM. This is as unfair as saying all Englishmen are distant, all Italian males are sexist pigs, all Frenchmen are jerks who love Jerry Lewis. Aside from that, an interesting article wherein both CF and MEM poked fun at their occupation by pointing out how spoiled most actors are, IMO. (S B Robinson) This is one of the things that drives me crazy about this movie. it all doesnt seem to add up correctly. I've now seen this film 13 times, the last 10 within the past two weeks. No matter how many times I watch it, it still doesn't add up. Not that I enjoy it any the less for its inconsistencies -- I love MLSF, and its enigma-like qualities are possibly one of the reasons I am so fond of it. I've never been able to watch it without analyzing it, but then I find "difficult" movies to be much more interesting than simple ones. Then there's the fantastic acting by every member of the cast. I can't think of anyone who is less than wonderful, and even the accents seem quite good. I'm surely not as familiar with Scottish accents as some of you are, but everyone sounds quite believable to me. It is rare to find a motion picture wherein everyone involved does such an excellent job. And Robert Norman is truly amazing! It is true that MMcD is too old IRL to be RH's son. I believe she would have had to been a 13-year-old mother. But if Malcolm had dyed his hair, would this have been an issue? Wonder why he didn't. Still, he is a great actor, and his scenes with CF are some of the best. So, when are we really going to talk about the burning question of the loft scene? I've a lot of thoughts on the matter, and a lot of questions, too. BTW, thanks, Rika, for the ladder scene. It might not be stairs, butt it's still nice! ;-)

I hate following my own post, but this one appeared while I was typing... (Elizabeth S) It almost seemed to me that Edward didn't know what magma was, very odd for a man with such a store of inventor's curiosity. I keep having this thought, too. He's a genius, and he doesn't know from magma?! But I suppose a knowledge of it would detract from what was a very cute scene, as he gets embarassed while trying to explain wet dreams to Fraser. I subjected several members of my family (80-year-old mother, brother) to MLSF this weekend, and this was definitely one of their favorite scenes, plausible or not.

(Elizabeth)"Procrastination only intensifies the sense of shock, boys." Whew, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clearing that up! (Elizabeth)I think Edward tried for more (the shriek) and didn't get it (the letter, "what did and didn't happen".) I agree with you that he tried for more but didn't get all he wanted. Plus there had to be some sort of struggle or tussle since Heloise lost her heirloom choker and both of them came back to the house with moss stuck to their hair and clothing. Later on, after the fight, Elsbeth tells Fraser (when he asks her) that their Dad didn't do the actual deed, but that he did touch Heloise. How does she put it again? Or is she just trying to protect Fraser?

(Linda)Funny how different films flash in your head when he does those very familiar moves. This happens to me a lot. At the beginning of the film when Edward goes into that little storage room looking for rope (I think) and something to help him get Fraser safely off the roof, it reminded me of the storage room in TIOBE where he locates the handbag! It's from another angle, but I could have sworn he was going to lift the handbag out of there too. :) I have to say, though, that his best Stairmaster (love that new Firthterm, Rika) scene is in SIL when he races down all those stairs from the top of the Rose Theatre to get to Queen Elizabeth. The Stairmaster scenes following the please, please, please scene in FP run a close 2nd. :) Okay, back to our discussion, so far ;-)

No matter how many times I watch it, it still doesn't add up. And we haven't even discussed the two endings.Yup...just like BJD..one for the US and one for UK.

Today I was rewatching the infamous loft scene, and the aftermath. Strange, isn't it, that Fraser finds the choker DOWNSTAIRS by the door rather than upstairs in the loft! What does this mean? Would someone please, please, please, explain it to me!

(Evelyn) And we haven't even discussed the two endings.Yup...just like BJD..one for the US and one for UK. Two endings? What two endings? But I suppose we shouldn't go to the endings until we've done the middles. And so far (unless I missed it) nobody's done my favorite line from the beginning, which is, "My Dad didn't want us to go into our attic, so he told us that was where the devil lurked. Ever since, I've been terrified of the word,'lurked.'"

(Evelyn) And we haven't even discussed the two endings.Yup...just like BJD..one for the US and one for UK. (Kathy)Two endings? What two endings? I didn't know that there were two different endings for each side of the pond either. Would love to know what the UK version was. Does it shed any more light on some of our questions? (Kathy)And so far (unless I missed it) nobody's done my favorite line from the beginning, which is, "My Dad didn't want us to go into our attic, so he told us that was where the devil lurked. Ever since, I've been terrified of the word,'lurked.'" You're the first one to mention it, but it caught my attention too as very apt to drooleurs :O---

(Pam) I bet CF felt comfortable with leading lady who was a friend though. I seem to remember Colin saying it was strange having to do a romantic scene with her because she is a friend and so is her husband. (Dorine) Also, was Kiloran shut off news-wise from the rest of the world. How did Edward not know that a plane had been invented already? It didn't spring up overnight. LOL! Kiloran is portrayed as a fantasyland, away from the real world, but I'm sure they knew airplanes existed. Didn't Edward invent a moss air filter? I think their reaction was one of awe at the plane being on their estate. (Rika) That's ODB - the Stairmaster (Dorine) I've only used the one version...maybe I should get on a different model to see if I still get a good workout ;-D Great ones, ladies. New and better ways to think of Colin. (Lora) And what exactly is Edward trying to get his three boys to clean by jumping in the freezing lake? Yep. Edward (patterned after Adam) is really into cleanliness. I'm going to have to type up the page from the book about Adam's bathing routines. They are very interesting. But we really got gypped. The towel did have a purpose in the original. Adam took his plunge nekkid as did the boys. Bwaaaaaaa! (Linda) does anyone else think that something other than just a kiss happened in the loft?...Although we are not shown anything except a hasty kiss on the cheek why does everything else point to other things ocurring? (Elizabeth) I think Edward tried for more (the shriek) and didn't get it (the letter, "what did and didn't happen".) I too am in the "he tried for more" camp but got shot down. Several reviewers claimed that a rape had taken place and they thought it was too dark an element for a movie like this. I've always thought more took place, but that it wasn't rape. How else would she have lost the choker? There had to have been a little struggle. Fraser hears a cry, in French, "Arrete" (sp), which means stop. Obviously, Edward hasn't just retreated to the corner to sulk about being rejected. He has tried to kiss her and had his hands on her. But then, he goes into the house and proceeds to antagonize Morris intentionally. You can see it in his body language. He goes into the study and hangs over him. He wants to be noticed and he wants to provoke him. Instead, Morris ridicules him over the moss hanging out of his clothes and sticking out of his hair, to which Edward attempts to tell him off but is interrupted by the guests' arrival. That whole scene seems like he is trying to bolster his ego, which has been bruised by Heloise's rejection. The curling scene bet and the comment after the funeral about having "won" the bet months ago are childish boasts (exaggeration) also meant to antagonize Morris, having no foundation in fact. While he may have had his hands on her, he didn't "have" her in the true sense of the word. (Lora) It's very funny how Edward and his crew eat the asbestos when it arrives. I've always been rather fond of the way Edward looks in that scene. In my top five. (Janet) I believe one of the main scenes to suffer was the barn scene, creating so much confusion over what actually took place. There certainly has been a lot of confusion about it and I was bound and determined to end our speculation when I asked Colin this question in the Donmar lobby. Unfortunately, his response was noncommittal and I didn't get a chance to follow-up. (I wasn't about to let him get away with a nonanswer answer!!) All he said was that they had similar discussions on the set. Baloney!! IMO, as an actor, he would've had to have known what transpired, when he filmed the subsequent scene. What was in his mind about what had occurred? (Elizabeth) It almost seemed to me that Edward didn't know what magma was, very odd for a man with such a store of inventor's curiosity. Don't you think it was just embarrassment over the discussion topic? (Lora) Plus there had to be some sort of struggle or tussle since Heloise lost her heirloom choker and both of them came back to the house with moss stuck to their hair and clothing. I used to think that too, but if you go back to check, they had thrown moss at each other earlier, which is the same moss in his hair and on his clothes later. (Lora) Okay, back to our discussion, so far ;-) Good one! ;-)

(Karen)I too am in the "he tried for more" camp but got shot down. I agree. When you see Edward walk in on Morris, Edward doesn't look at all embarrassed, or even smug. And given Edward's childishness, he'd be unable to avoid gloating. And the reference to "exotic child bride" would be more leering than disparaging if Edward had been successful with Heloise. Later, when Edward suggests to Morris that he had, in fact, been successful, I think that's a childish boastful lie. Part of Edward's "oh, yeah?" response to Morris. I find it interesting that in the discussion of lying 9at the dinner table), Edward says that it might be OK to lie to protect a loved one. That comment was aimed at Fraser, telling him not to rat out his father for the events in the barn. (Karen)What was in his [Colin's] mind about what had occurred? Good question! Actors like to know that stuff, even if it isn't in the script. Some directors give the actors that sort of "background" info, other times the actors work it out for themselves. But I don't see how he could play the subsequent scenes if he didn't have his own opinion of what had happened in the barn. Back to Moira's blowup. It certainlly was very emotional for someone unsually so contained. But sometimes you've just HAD IT and anyone in the vicinity had better look out. She was not happy with Edward's behavior for a long time. The wedding scene, already mentioned, shows that. But watch the dinner table scene again. At some point during dessert, Heloise addresses Edward just as Moira is putting her hand over his. He pulls his hand away, almost as if he's denying Moira, like a cheating husband with a band-aid on his ring finger--"wife? what wife?" (don't laugh, I actually saw this once!) That must have hurt, and Moira just carried all those little worries and slights around until they burst through the surface (like magma). And it didn't help that Edward probably had no idea that Moira was unhappy about anything. "Wave to Mumsie." He smiled at her image on the screen. I think he loves Moira, but desires Heloise as a passing fancy. The two are totally separate to him by this time, and he has not guilt about anything (another childlike ability, shedding guilt). I don't know why Edward didn't know about magma. He was probably one of those people who would study something in depth if he was interested (Beethoven, moss), but dismiss other subjects as unimportant if he wasn't interested. I guess he didn't care for Earth Science, or maybe he wasn't interested in volcanoes, since they aren't a habitat for sphagnum. I don't think Scotland has any volcanoes. (BTW, plate tectonics first was proposed in 1910, not accepted for 50 years. But magma and lava had been known for a long time.)

Wow, has this ever been a long, stressful day. Nice to finally get her and do a little drooling! Janet, thanks for the information on the Scottish accents! And Karen, thanks for the link to the CF/MEM conversation. I had never read that one - I must have been too busy comparing wallpaper samples (while totally lacking in irony, of course). (Barb S) Bundled up in this self image thing were the comments about the musical career put aside to marry and have babies. Ironic that when Edward's attentions do stray, it is to the accomplished Heloise. How much more galling to Moira? That's an excellent point! Poor Moira. (Pam) Remember in the Wedding movie the look on her face when Edward is taking her picture and she looks at him. She's really fed up then. (Karen) Yes, if looks could kill. Speaking of which, did it look like Edward noticed? Fraser certainly did, but I don't recall if Edward was cognizant of that look. Must recheck. After Moira glares at Edward, the camera stays on close-up on Fraser, so we don't get to see Edward's reaction. That's one scene in which I love CF's expressions, as Edward looks at Heloise. Maybe that would be a good photo essay for tomorrow.... (Karen) I have found two characters--Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice--rather perplexing. Does anybody have a sense of their blood relation? That totally confused me. They seem to be around a lot, too - do they live there? (Dorine) THE STAIRMASTER! It's always a great workout, makes ya sweat! I've only used the one version...maybe I should get on a different model to see if I still get a good workout ;-D. A workout with the Stairmaster.... the mind reels (no Scottish pun intended :-D). (Lora) I even think the last name they chose for the family is very apt as well: Pettigrew. I love this! I wonder if it was intentional. (KathyF) And so far (unless I missed it) nobody's done my favorite line from the beginning, which is, "My Dad didn't want us to go into our attic, so he told us that was where the devil lurked. Ever since, I've been terrified of the word,'lurked.'" Thanks for bringing that up - I always laugh at that line, partly because of the way Robbie Norman says 'lurked.'

(Evelyn) What in the world did Heloise see in Morris? This is something I can't quite figure out either, like Michael Douglas and his exotic child bride. There is no accounting for some people's tastes! "Auntie Heloise is particularly French, and French ladies don't understand the first thing about moral fiber." The irony is sublime! I prefer CF with a little weight on. When he's too lean his elbows and knees are too angular and hurt my ribs when we snuggle. Love him in this movie and FP as well. Don't feel he's "porked-up" at all. It looks good on him. He's so tall that he can carry it off and the pants don't look so baggy either. Prefer him this way. I couldn't agree more! In the reindeer jumper scene in BJD for example he looks positively Biafran. Give me a man with some meat on his bones! And in FP, he certainly didn't look "porked-up" to me. Check the scene in the kitchen when he tells Sara that calling football 'only a game' is the stupidest thing in the world to say. The long shots of his lean but not too thin form beat any stair claimbing, IMHO. (Karen) I too am in the "he tried for more" camp but got shot down. Several reviewers claimed that a rape had taken place and they thought it was too dark an element for a movie like this. I've always thought more took place, but that it wasn't rape. I agree that something more than the peck on the cheek happened. I can see Edward pressing his attentions in the hope and that they were not unwelcome but I don't see rape as fitting in with his character at all. (Evelyn) And we haven't even discussed the two endings.Yup...just like BJD..one for the US and one for UK. What two endings ... in BJD, I mean? Can someone enlighten me?

Regarding the moss loft scene: First, I agree with those who have said things just don't add up. I think it's because the story is told mostly from Fraser's POV, and so we often share his imperfect understanding of events. (KathyF)Today I was rewatching the infamous loft scene, and the aftermath. Strange, isn't it, that Fraser finds the choker DOWNSTAIRS by the door rather than upstairs in the loft! I also find this confusing. After we hear the sounds of a struggle, there's a shot of Heloise at the bottom of the ladder to the loft. She's a bit out of breath and says, "You're behaving like a child." She doesn't appear to be wearing the choker, so evidently it has already fallen off. Fraser finds the choker a few steps closer to the doorway than the position of the ladder. So perhaps it was loosened, and fell off after she came downstairs. Or could the whole incident have taken place downstairs? When Heloise and Fraser are in the loft, you can see a sloped ceiling with wood beams, and that doesn't show up in the second scene... though it could just be a matter of camera angles. (Lora) Later on, after the fight, Elsbeth tells Fraser (when he asks her) that their Dad didn't do the actual deed, but that he did touch Heloise. How does she put it again? Or is she just trying to protect Fraser? Here's the dialogue: Fraser: "What did Mumsie mean when she said Dad's had his hands on Auntie Heloise?" Elspeth: "Had carnal knowledge of her, like in the Bible." Fraser: "Isn't that a dreadful sin?" Elspeth: "I don't know. Is it?" Fraser: "Elspeth, is it like a slank?" Elspeth: "No. That's something you do with somebody you love." So she just explains Moira's terminology; she doesn't express an opinion on whether or not the deed was actually done.

SandywWhat two endings... In BJD, I mean? Can someone enlighten me? The end titles were different in the UK and US versions. The US showed the home movie scene when they were children, which we in the UK didn't see until the DVD was released. But apart from the Microsoft/El Nino?(not sure of spelling) question at the job interview, I believe the rest of the movie was the same.

(Kate) At some point during dessert, Heloise addresses Edward just as Moira is putting her hand over his. He pulls his hand away, almost as if he's denying Moira...That must have hurt That's another, small but brilliant touch (or untouch, as the case may be) of rejection. Moira's face shows it all, while Edward's is fixated on Heloise across the table; he's aware of no one else. You definitely get the feeling that, even before he "pulls away" from her, Moira has more than an inclination something has occurred. She's frazzled. She doesn't even know what kind of soup they're eating and then gets up to do anything, including pushing the alcoholic minister to imbibe, in order to appear normal. A wonderful scene, which bears more discussion of all the dynamics at work. (Kate) and Moira just carried all those little worries and slights around until they burst through the surface (like magma). LOL! Had no idea that Scotland was in the Ring of Fire. ;-) (Rika) I think it's because the story is told mostly from Fraser's POV, and so we often share his imperfect understanding of events. I'm glad you said "mostly" because the film doesn't have a consistent POV, which may have been part of the problem in editing and they did the best they could to straighten that out. Fraser was not privy to many of the scenes, even though he is the narrator. (Rika) After we hear the sounds of a struggle...there's a shot of Heloise...She doesn't appear to be wearing the choker I paused at that point too but couldn't tell, as she was turned sideways. Maybe I need to zoom as well. Thanks for clarifying Elspeth's dialogue.

(KathyF) And so far (unless I missed it) nobody's done my favorite line from the beginning, which is, "My Dad didn't want us to go into our attic, so he told us that was where the devil lurked. Ever since, I've been terrified of the word,'lurked.'" (Rika)Thanks for bringing that up - I always laugh at that line, partly because of the way Robbie Norman says 'lurked.' Am ashamed to say that the connection to lurking didn't hit until I read Kathy's post. What amused me about that line is the pause before he says 'lurked.' I thought for sure he was going to say 'attic,' which would be a much more typical child reaction. But Fraser is not an ordinary child by any means.

(Rika) After we hear the sounds of a struggle...there's a shot of Heloise...She doesn't appear to be wearing the choker (Karen)I paused at that point too but couldn't tell, as she was turned sideways. Maybe I need to zoom as well. I rewound this one several times, and I can't tell, either. I wonder if this is intentional, so that the discovery of the choker later is a surprise.

(Kate) I can't tell, either. I wonder if this is intentional, so that the discovery of the choker later is a surprise. However, Heloise is aware she's lost the choker when she looks in the mirror. Why doesn't she go back to the moss factory? Edward isn't there anymore. He left before her. Or do we have to chalk this convenient plot point up to post-traumatic shock disorder caused by the assault?

Pam) I bet CF felt comfortable with leading lady who was a friend though. (Karen)I seem to remember Colin saying it was strange having to do a romantic scene with her because she is a friend and so is her husband. On the Regis show MEM said Colin was an old family friend and she was glad they were cast as husband and wife and not lovers. (Karen)Unfortunately, his response was noncommittal and I didn't get a chance to follow-up. (Iwasn't about to let him get away with a nonanswer answer!!) All he said was that they had similar discussions on the set. Karen:"Did Edward and Heloise get in "on" in the loft?" Colin:*with gorgeous sly smile*:"That was the burning question" (Janet) BJD:The end titles were different in the UK and US versions. The US showed the home movie scene when they were children, which we in the UK didn't see until the DVD was released Pl. describe the original UK ending.We never saw it.

(Karen) I'm glad you said "mostly" because the film doesn't have a consistent POV, which may have been part of the problem in editing and they did the best they could to straighten that out. Fraser was not privy to many of the scenes, even though he is the narrator. I was going to save my thoughts on this issue till the discussion was winding down, but what the heck. I think it would have been a much better film if they had given up any attempt to use Fraser's POV as the narrative focus. As others have noted, this movie is a coming of age story for both Fraser and Edward; however, Edward's journey is by far the more dramatically compelling of the two. I suppose they thought it would be interesting for us to see Edward's situation through Fraser's eyes, but the stuff that was going on between Edward, Morris, Heloise, Moira, and Gamma was simply too complex for a ten-year-old to fully grasp. As a result, unless they wanted the audience to be totally clueless (instead of just confused, as we are now) they had little choice but to shift POV periodically and show us things Fraser wouldn't have seen. I wonder if there were two different artistic visions for this movie on the part of the principals. I mean, how odd that a charming coming-of-age movie (which does seem to be what the film is trying to be most of the time) would have a scene that even hinted at the possibiity that a young woman was sexually assaulted by her future brother-in-law.

I liked the ambiguity in the loft, the dinner table etc. Don't like to have things spelled out.

BTW, the difference with MLSF is not merely US-UK. North America got one version and the rest of the world got the one described below for theaterical release. The video was the same all over, i.e., the North American one. As previously posted by AnneH: The four wheel drive sets off with the chauffeur in front and Fraser in the back. His mother has just informed him his father is waiting for him at the loch. At they loch they stop - and his Dad can be seen climbing out of the loch in the strange regalia of a tyre and waders. He comes up to Fraser to say goodbye and after a few pleasantries he informs Fraser he has looked up the word Fellatio and now knows its meaning and suggests to Fraser that he doesn't practice it at school!!!!!!! Fraser looks at his father in some puzzlement and is heard saying over - I can't remember the exact wording - but suffice to say he hadn't a clue to his father's meaning. [Cathey will I am sure give you the exact wording.] The four wheel drive then continues on, the chauffeur suggests Fraser comes and sits in front with him and they exchange caps and then music. I think I am right here - after all I have only seen it twice. Cathey's account: In the voice over Fraser says he is pleased his Dad has at last told him something useful, even though he doesn't have a clue what he means. This final scene starts off with Fraser saying goodbye to his mother and the servants. He asks his mother if it was his fault that his father's flying experiment didn't work earlier in the summer and she reassures him that is was not and that his father wasn't meant to fly, he was meant to stay with them "all the animals in his zoo". She is trying not to cry while she says goodbye to him. After the car drives off leaving Edward it shows Fraser climbing over the seat into the front and he and the chauffeur exchanging caps with Fraser saying (in voice over) "so that is My Life So Far". There is then some wording on the screen which I assume the American version also had. If not, let me know and I'll see how good my memory is. ~~~~~~~ Plus the other version did not have the waltz in the rain bit.

If I thought I was confused before, am v.confused now. Two endings? Or, actually 3? Don't mind me, I just drove through Philadelphia, and this always happens. Saw a neat billboard for ice cream,in huge letters: DROOLING YET? I thought, you can't even begin to imagine. Ok, back OT. (Karen)That's another, small but brilliant touch (or untouch, as the case may be) of rejection I thought this was an excellent scene. I don't think it has to do with Edward being so infatuated with Heloise that he doesn't realize the action. I think it was an out and out rejection of Moira-at least at that moment.IMHPOV. Again, not to get off track, this scene made me sad because it almost confirmed, at least to me, that something more went on in the loft. It added to my confusion as well, because from the beginning, I never would have thought the movie was going to go in that direction-Edward and Moira seemed so perfectly happy and content with their life, children, and Kiloran. Good in a way that it catches you off balance. I thought the touch/untouch, and the look on both Colin's and MEM's faces were perfect.He doesn't skip a beat in the conversation and she has a melt down. Just another aspect of Edwards personality-He is sparring with Heloise at the table about morals, but it's almost as if he does not apply her words to his own actions. Thank you ladies for the recaps of the different endings.

(Karen)Kiloran is portrayed as a fantasyland, away from the real world Does anyone also get the idea that it was a little like a prison for them at times? Don't Edward's and Frasier's pajamas resemble prison garb? It's ironic since Kiloran is such a great beautiful expanse of land, but I think it's isolation seemed to close in on them at times. Maybe that's why Morris stayed away so much and only thought of Kiloran as an asset. I also think Elsbeth thought of the Emperor of the Air as a one way ticket out of there, in a way. (Rika)Fraser: "What did Mumsie mean when she said Dad's had his hands on Auntie Heloise?" Elspeth: "Had carnal knowledge of her, like in the Bible." Fraser: "Isn't that a dreadful sin?" Elspeth: "I don't know. Is it?" Fraser: "Elspeth, is it like a slank?" Elspeth: "No. That's something you do with somebody you love." So she just explains Moira's terminology; she doesn't express an opinion on whether or not the deed was actually done. Thanks, Rika, for providing the exact dialogue. I had forgotten about the carnal knowledge line. So does carnal knowledge -like in the bible- mean just flesh or sexual intercourse? The dictionary defines carnal as flesh, but carnal knowledge as sexual intercourse. So our answer to the loft question may lie in this very dialogue that Rika has provided. Interesting how the children define "slank," a slangish term, as something you do with someone you love (but that's how their dad refered to it, so maybe they think that's a positive thing). They also want to overlook, as children do with someone they love, whether it was an actual dreadful sin by never answering that question. Elsbeth answers Fraser's question about that with another question. So what would happen between an immature boy/man and an exotic about to be child bride in the moss loft? Just had a thought and will have to recheck Edward's clothing, but maybe given Edward's boyishness and impulsive behavior something happened to him (let's call it premature magma) before he could get very far in his endeavors. That would explain "what happened" but "what didn't happen." Or how Heloise was able to get away from him and then tell him he was behaving like a child (by forcing himself on her). It definitely adds new insight to the magma discussion and Edward being uncomfortable with it. Love the way he pretends to blow his nose here. But this is all speculation. I know, I come up with the weirdest stuff, don't I? Does the book shed any light on this, and also, if anyone knows, what are the two endings for the film? Thanks again, Rika, for the dialogue.

Sorry, Karen, I was still thinking through my post when you were providing the different endings. Will have to think about those. Does Edward blow his nose again during this last explanation? ;-) I guess he's already wet from being in the loch ;-P.

(Lora) Just had a thought and will have to recheck Edward's clothing, but maybe given Edward's boyishness and impulsive behavior something happened to him (let's call it premature magma) before he could get very far in his endeavors. Oh my! It would appear our students of Crotchology have been asleep at the wheel if that's the case. ;-) (Lora) Does the book shed any light on this On what, specifically? Remember, there is no Heloise or mossloft incident in the book. The parents had a loving relationship, full of slanking. (Lora) Maybe that's why Morris stayed away so much and only thought of Kiloran as an asset. From the book, I have learned that there was an established Scottish business presence in Liverpool (port city), and many of the wealthy families had large homes in Scotland. The Smith family (Forman's grandparents) made their fortune in the cotton brokerage business. The grandfather was in partnership with his brother, but the brother eventually went into politics and the other took over running the business. He bought the estate, expanded it and developed everything on it from the lakes and streams to the trees and curling clubs. I get the feeling that the only place on the estate that was a prison to the six kiddies was the nursery, when they were required to take a nap each afternoon.

(Linda) Saw a neat billboard for ice cream,in huge letters: DROOLING YET? I thought, you can't even begin to imagine. That's for sure! I did some big-screen drooling today, in fact (but I'll save that for 163). (Lora)So our answer to the loft question may lie in this very dialogue that Rika has provided. But Elspeth isn't in a position to know what happened in the loft. She just knows what Moira said about it. And even Moira doesn't state it as a certainty - she says, "I suppose you've had your hands on her." They're guessing, just like we are. Just had a thought and will have to recheck Edward's clothing, but maybe given Edward's boyishness and impulsive behavior something happened to him (let's call it premature magma) before he could get very far in his endeavors. (Karen) Oh my! It would appear our students of Crotchology have been asleep at the wheel if that's the case. ;-) Unfortunately (from a Crotchology perspective), I'm pretty sure that Edward is shown entirely in close-ups (of his face - I know what some of you were thinking ;-0) during the moss factory scene. But I checked the following scene (in the library with Morris and the candlestick :-P), and the trousers show no signs of magma, premature or otherwise.

We all know, procrastination only intensifies the sense of shock, and in this discussion, the sense of being overwhelmed as well! I knew I would be a couple of days behind but I had no idea it would amount to over 100 posts! I've read everything but may still be redundant--my apologies in advance. (Karen)Remember, there is no Heloise or mossloft incident in the book. The parents had a loving relationship, full of slanking. I am really glad they didn't "go all the way" with the Heloise incident. Edward was a respected man in his community, noble and upright of character, who had firm convictions and followed them to the best of his ability. I can appreciate that the moviemakers needed some dramatic tension but I am glad that they didn't totally trash his reputation. (Karen)I get the feeling that the only place on the estate that was a prison to the six kiddies was the nursery, when they were required to take a nap each afternoon. Hee! Hee! I have to agree. MLSF really does a great job of capturing memories of a childhood that has disappeared. A childhood spent in the remote Scottish highlands with memories of an eccentric father and a protective grandmother, of going to church,of fishing and curling, of things that caused wonder(Gabriel), of things that caused fear (the Hairy Man), and things that were hard to understand (relationships between adult men and women). (Elizabeth) This strikes me as the story of not one, but two males growing up, one a child and the other long since a legal, if not an emotional, adult. (Lora)This struck me the second time I watched it. I even think the last name they chose for the family is very apt as well: Pettigrew. When broken down it could be shown to mean small growth or petite spurts - bit by bit, like Fraser says at the end of the film about Edward being let back into his mother's heart again. Very good name connection which leads me to wonder about the choice of names since they didn't use the ones in the book. The one I had thought of for PETTIGREW is how Edward's wealth was PETITE at first but GREW after the reading of the will. MOIRA had MORe children and was MORe tired. (But was probably changed to Moira because it rhymes with Flora.):-) MORRIS because MORe is hIS--more money, more prestige, more houses. Gamma MACINTOSH because, like the coat, she provided the protective outer layer for the family and kept the storms of life away. FRASER who is in a particularly difficult "FASE" of life. GABRIEL is named after an angel which might also have wings and fly. HELOISE reminds me of HELen of Troy which was the cause of the downfall of the city and almost, of Edward.

Could this movie get any more confusing? Why wouldn't they show the complete ending in our version? Makes no sense. So it actually ends with Fraser going off to school, not when Edward backs out of the room after seeing Fraser in all his glory, having a good time. Interesting. Well thanks for info. Would never have known otherwise. Are different endings for the same movie common practice? Why would they do things like that? I don't think these two endings had any cultural differences world-wide. Obviously, Edward attempted more than we see. But I honestly feel he didn't get anywhere. Definitely a struggle loosening choker which probably fell off as she was leaving loft. Men are so opaque. How customary for him to ignore wife as he obviously still tries to have some affect on Heloise after encounter although she totally refused him. I don't think Edward was aware of anything wrong with Moira during wedding photos, although Fraser certainly was. Typical of him though. I've known the band-aid on ring finger man too. I think he just found Heloise so inviting that he thought he had a right to persue regardless of consequences. I feel he didn't think there were any, as this was not a serious relationship to him, but more like an ego-building conquest. However, being refused shattered his ego so much that when they made the bet and had the fight he had to lie to make himself feel better. Again this demonstrates my previous statement of how childlike he is and how lacking in people skills, or as also described a "Geek". I can see a "Geek" reacting like this. At the end of the loft scene after he kisses her on the cheek and she backs off he still leans to her so we must assume he is not going to end it there. Good thing there weren't too many female visitors. Was watching today and laughed outloud when Fraser was reading a note written to his Granfather in one of the books where the writer, obviously a female acquaintance was stating she would like to introduce him to some new sexual favors, not in those words of course. Fraser concludes the book must be from a golfing buddy. How funny is that. So Grandfather was not above his dalliances either.

(Rika)And even Moira doesn't state it as a certainty - she says, "I suppose you've had your hands on her." They're guessing, just like we are. You make a good point here. I feel there are so many gaps in the film that I have a strong urge to fill in the gaps myself. This movie really frustrates me in this way. So, I must apologize for all the comments I make that come out of left field. Karen, thanks for all the references from the book you've provided. I was wondering if Edward was as childlike and immature in the book as he was in the film, even without Heloise? Even with all the flaws in his character, CF does an endearing portrayal of Edward, and, as many have pointed out already, MEM does an excellent job as the matronly mumsie. All the actors are wonderful, it's just all the things in between that are so confusing and don't add up. Caribou, I knew you'd have a field day with the names! Well done! (Pam)Obviously, Edward attempted more than we see. But I honestly feel he didn't get anywhere. Definitely a struggle loosening choker which probably fell off as she was leaving loft. Men are so opaque. How customary for him to ignore wife as he obviously still tries to have some affect on Heloise after encounter I agree that he attempted more than we see, but didn't get anywhere. But it's more that Moira has let him indulge himself in so many things that he doesn't feel guilty about this at all. It's more like he thinks he's entitled to what he wants like a spoiled child. He acts like he's Moira's first born more than her husband until he figures things out towards the end of the film. (Which makes Colin perfect for this part). (Pam)Fraser concludes the book must be from a golfing buddy. How funny is that. So Grandfather was not above his dalliances either. I heard Fraser say this too, but I was hoping that grandpa got the book during his courting days before he was married. Gamma seemed so devoted to him, and I don't think her character would have felt that way if there were dalliances. But maybe she didn't know about them, or maybe she and her daughter are a lot alike and very forgiving.

I have just rewatched the loft scene that included Fraser, and the other "loft" scene that did not. I have come to the conclusion that the second "loft" scene -- the one we're all wondering about -- is not actually in the loft at all. My reason for thinking this is that in the first scene (absolutely in the loft), only two rungs of the ladder protrude above the opening of the loft. In the second scene, Heloise is shown standing in front of a ladder which keeps going on up, out of the frame. Therefore, she must be on a lower floor of the building. This would make it all even more strange -- because why would Edward make a pass at Heloise downstairs, right by the door? And that's where Fraser found the choker, so perhaps that is where the seduction attempt took place. I also wanted to mention something I find interesting in the first loft scene. After Edward makes Fraser leave, and gives Heloise the moss gift box, Heloise is touching her mouth. I seem to recall reading somewhere that touching the lips indicates sexual attraction -- subconsciously inviting the other person to kiss those lips. She just stands there touching her lips and gazing up at Edward. She doesn't looks as if she's thinking, "what a stupid moss gift box." The more I watch MLSF, the more I feel we are meant to interpret Heloise as being attracted to Edward, although obviously unwilling to give in to her feelings. She finds him interesting -- earlier in the same scene she asks Fraser if the whole moss factory was Edward's invention, and comments that he is a clever man. And after he asks for a kiss as a reward for throwing moss, she refuses but then kisses him on the cheek, anyway. Why didn't she just leave well enough alone? She obviously has ambivalent feelings about him, IMO.

(Lora) So, I must apologize for all the comments I make that come out of left field. Gosh, if we have to apologize for that, I have SEVERAL apologies I'd better make! ;-) (KathyF) I have just rewatched the loft scene that included Fraser, and the other "loft" scene that did not. I have come to the conclusion that the second "loft" scene -- the one we're all wondering about -- is not actually in the loft at all. My reason for thinking this is that in the first scene (absolutely in the loft), only two rungs of the ladder protrude above the opening of the loft. In the second scene, Heloise is shown standing in front of a ladder which keeps going on up, out of the frame. Therefore, she must be on a lower floor of the building. Kathy, I posted something about this last night in response to your comment about the choker being found downstairs. I'd love it if we could put our heads together and figure this out because it's confusing. So let me repeat what I wrote then: I also find this confusing. After we hear the sounds of a struggle, there's a shot of Heloise at the bottom of the ladder to the loft. She's a bit out of breath and says, "You're behaving like a child." She doesn't appear to be wearing the choker, so evidently it has already fallen off. Fraser finds the choker a few steps closer to the doorway than the position of the ladder. So perhaps it was loosened, and fell off after she came downstairs. Or could the whole incident have taken place downstairs? When Heloise and Fraser are in the loft, you can see a sloped ceiling with wood beams, and that doesn't show up in the second scene... though it could just be a matter of camera angles. This would make it all even more strange -- because why would Edward make a pass at Heloise downstairs, right by the door? That was my precise thought - if they were downstairs, it would have been too public (or at least potentially public) for him to do anything at all. But the doorway doesn't show up in any of the footage before or after the kiss. So maybe they weren't downstairs then. Can anybody help out here?

(KathyF) I also wanted to mention something I find interesting in the first loft scene. After Edward makes Fraser leave, and gives Heloise the moss gift box, Heloise is touching her mouth. I seem to recall reading somewhere that touching the lips indicates sexual attraction You might be right about the significance of the lip touch, but I've always thought that mostly she's disturbed and confused by the way Edward treated Fraser, belittling him for not knowing about ecrevisse and then sending him away so abruptly. The more I watch MLSF, the more I feel we are meant to interpret Heloise as being attracted to Edward, although obviously unwilling to give in to her feelings. She finds him interesting -- earlier in the same scene she asks Fraser if the whole moss factory was Edward's invention, and comments that he is a clever man. I don't know if it's sincere or if she's just being nice to Fraser (who at this point pretty clearly worships his dad). But Edward's a dynamic man who puts his ideas (good and bad) into action, which probably makes him seem stronger than a lot of the men she meets. Plus, he's pretty darn cute and he's the StairMaster! And after he asks for a kiss as a reward for throwing moss, she refuses but then kisses him on the cheek, anyway. Why didn't she just leave well enough alone? She obviously has ambivalent feelings about him, IMO. I think she kisses him to placate him and because she thinks it's a harmless gesture. But I do think you might be right about her feelings because of their conversation leading up to the kiss. At first, when Edward is trying to impress her with his building plans, he's trying too hard and she's bored. But when the conversation turns to the moss and Morris's attitude, I sense a spark, or at least a bonding moment. That's why she throws the moss at him - there's a sense of closeness between them that allows her to be playful. Maybe she's just trying to be a friend to her future brother-in-law. Or maybe she feels sorry for him because Morris looks down his nose at Edward. But maybe there is some attraction there - not that I think she intends to do anything about it.

Thanks to everyone for such well-thought out and interesting comments. Am desperately trying to keep up with the reading in the hopes of jumping back in tomorrow. Am really finding the loft/ladder/moss gift set discussion fun reading. For some reason I can't put my finger on, I don't think Heloise is all she appears in her seemingly innocent, unprovoking child/woman personna. I think, despite her protests, she probably got a kick out of Edward's advances and that leads me to think that, yes something else went on in the moss. But, to use Karen's fav. expression, no rumpy-pumpy! My vote leans to possible a very heated kiss with a little groping. And, I think she submitted willingly. Do I remember right, in that she doesn't really seem upset by anything afterwards, nor does she go out of her way to avoid Edward later on. I know I sure would, if my future BIL had tried to nail me in the moss loft and I didn't like it. And, first thing I would do is tell my fiancee, if I had nothing to hide and was ticked off. Especially, if I knew, which Heloise must, that said fiancee disliked the guy who made the advances. :))) All conjecture, keep going with the thoughts!!!!!!

(Kathy)The more I watch MLSF, the more I feel we are meant to interpret Heloise as being attracted to Edward,... I think you have something there. She sure seems to be flirting with different forms of body language, and nuances. (LOL... :"Blame the woman" syndrome;-)

(Rika) After we hear the sounds of a struggle, there's a shot of Heloise at the bottom of the ladder to the loft. She's a bit out of breath and says, "You're behaving like a child." She doesn't appear to be wearing the choker, so evidently it has already fallen off. Fraser finds the choker a few steps closer to the doorway than the position of the ladder. So perhaps it was loosened, and fell off after she came downstairs. Or could the whole incident have taken place downstairs? When Heloise and Fraser are in the loft, you can see a sloped ceiling with wood beams, and that doesn't show up in the second scene... though it could just be a matter of camera angles. Rika, I remember reading your comments about the loft (or not loft) ceiling last night but totally forgot you mentioned the ladder. Mea culpa. In fact, I was careful to check out the ceilings today while rewatching these three scenes, and they look like different heights to me, too. As you said, the real loft has short stone walls and beams that come down at an angle. The lower room's stone walls appear to go all the way up to the ceiling. Could be camera angles, but I don't think so. Perhaps the room where the seduction attempt took place was supposed to be a little further in, and the ladder up to the loft in an entry way closer to the door. Surely Edward would not have kissed Heloise in front of the door.

(Lisa) Do I remember right, in that she doesn't really seem upset by anything afterwards, nor does she go out of her way to avoid Edward later on. When she comes back in she seems pretty agitated (more so than she did when last we saw her in the moss factory, in fact). And she throws herself into Morris's arms, which is a bit odd considering that she does so in front of two people she's never met. So I think she's upset. And, first thing I would do is tell my fiancee, if I had nothing to hide and was ticked off. Especially, if I knew, which Heloise must, that said fiancee disliked the guy who made the advances. :))) If it involved a few unwanted kisses and nothing more, she may have felt it best to say nothing in the interests of family peace. But I bet she double-locked her bedroom door that night. If anything really major happened, she still might not tell Morris (perhaps fearing that she'd be blamed somehow), but I would think she'd come up with some other pretext to get Morris to take her out of there as quickly as possible. So I do think her behavior afterwards supports the kisses-but-nothing-more theory, but I don't think they were necessariy consensual.

(Kate F) But watch the dinner table scene again. At some point during dessert, Heloise addresses Edward just as Moira is putting her hand over his. He pulls his hand away, almost as if he's denying Moira, like a cheating husband with a band-aid on his ring finger--"wife? what wife?" (don't laugh, I actually saw this once!) That must have hurt (Karen) That's another, small but brilliant touch (or untouch, as the case may be) of rejection. Moira's face shows it all, while Edward's is fixated on Heloise across the table; he's aware of no one else. I noticed this, too, and was fascinated by it. It's like being around someone you like, and wanting desperately to convey your attraction to him, but there's some other guy (say a friend) with you who takes that moment to act possessive. You want to scream, "I'm not with him! Not like that!" I felt that was what Edward was doing. So, yes, denying and rejecting Moira, and very publicly. I feel like I'm taking up too much space here, but I spend the whole day thinking about what I want to say, and then I have to hurry up and say it before my son reappears and tosses me off his computer.

(Kathy)I'm not with him! Not like that!" I commented on this scene earlier today. I was fascinated by the touch/untouch moment, but more amazed over Edward's obvious oblivion(sp) to the conversation about moral. He participated, but acts as though it never hits home. (Karen)Oh my! It would appear our students of Crotchology have been asleep at the wheel if that's the case. ;-) If it was there, I'd a seen it! Even in my sleep! (Kathy)And after he asks for a kiss as a reward for throwing moss, she refuses but then kisses him on the cheek, anyway. Why didn't she just leave well enough alone? She obviously has ambivalent feelings about him, IMO. This is another reason why this whole scene, and what follows is so confusing. I can't, no matter how convincing some of the posts are, believe that we aren't meant to think something more happened. Maybe not a complete slank, but close to it. Or, is all of the confusion simply due to the editing?

(Kate F) But watch the dinner table scene again. At some point during dessert, Heloise addresses Edward just as Moira is putting her hand over his. (Karen) That's another, small but brilliant touch (or untouch, as the case may be) of rejection. I interpreted that one differently. I'm working from memory here, so am quite possibly wrong, but doesn't Moira say"...perfectly free of sin in their hearts" right as she reaches for Edward's hand. Her body language here says to me "just like my dear Edward" and when he pulls his away his body language says, "uh, let's not talk about that right now". Consequently, I see this as the beginning of a guilty conscience on his part. Months later, as Halloween nears, Andrew comments to Fraser that he (Edward) had not been himself lately. So, he is not the same man after the encounter. If he truly believed what he preached, even what we saw him do in the loft would create a moral dilemma for the man.

About time you got here, Caribou!! I was going to email you. Love your interpretations of their names. Always entertaining and creative. Now, where is Bryonny? (Rika) As others have noted, this movie is a coming of age story for both Fraser and Edward; however, Edward's journey is by far the more dramatically compelling of the two I wonder if that's because we're a little (ahem) biased toward the Stairmaster??? ;-) There's another crucial element at work in the Fraser coming-of-age story that hasn't been mentioned yet, but is affected by what he does perceive about his father, regardless of whether it's accurate or understandable. MLSF is also a story of a son's separation from his father, where the father is finally seen as not only a mere mortal, but a very flawed one as well. Fraser starts out the movie worshiping his father ("he's an inventor and a genius") but, by the end, Fraser has embraced everything his father has preached against (jazz and the pseudo strong drink symbolized by the brandy snifter). (Linda) He is sparring with Heloise at the table about morals, but it's almost as if he does not apply her words to his own actions. Oh, the hypocrite. ;-) (Lora) Does Edward blow his nose again during this last explanation? ;-) I guess he's already wet from being in the loch ;-P. I've never seen that other ending, as it was only shown theatrically in the other countries. (Rika) But I checked the following scene (in the library with Morris and the candlestick :-P) LOL! Too bad he didn't hit him over the head with candlestick. (Caribou) I can appreciate that the moviemakers needed some dramatic tension but I am glad that they didn't totally trash his reputation. As I recall, Forman really seemed to hate his father, so I guess Edward came off pretty good. Probably wouldn't have fit into the Miramax mold to have a more antagonistic or hateful relationship in this kind of sweet movie. (Lora) It's more like he thinks he's entitled to what he wants like a spoiled child. I see this too. (Kathy) I have come to the conclusion that the second "loft" scene -- the one we're all wondering about -- is not actually in the loft at all. (Rika) So maybe they weren't downstairs then. Can anybody help out here? Edward is in the process of showing her his construction plans, so it is very likely he might be on the first floor. So who is going to write Hugh Hudson and ask? (Kathy) After Edward makes Fraser leave, and gives Heloise the moss gift box, Heloise is touching her mouth. I seem to recall reading somewhere that touching the lips indicates sexual attraction -- subconsciously inviting the other person to kiss those lips. She just stands there touching her lips and gazing up at Edward. She doesn't looks as if she's thinking, "what a stupid moss gift box." Very true. A guy like Edward could get the wrong idea, couldn't he? He did have to look up that word. ;-) (Lisa) I don't think Heloise is all she appears in her seemingly innocent, unprovoking child/woman personna. I think, despite her protests, she probably got a kick out of Edward's advances and that leads me to think that, yes something else went on in the moss...My vote leans to possible a very heated kiss with a little groping. And, I think she submitted willingly. That was how I always interpreted the scene because that would give Edward the ability to claim having "had" Morris' woman. Well, sort of. (Lisa) And, first thing I would do is tell my fiancee, if I had nothing to hide and was ticked off. Especially, if I knew, which Heloise must, that said fiancee disliked the guy who made the advances. :))) Very logical and we know she didn't do it, otherwise Edward would've had a broken nose at a minimum. Either she felt culpable or she felt her position in this family was too new to cause problems. (Rika) When she comes back in she seems pretty agitated But isn't that when she realizes she has lost the family heirloom choker and, of course, makes no effort to go back and find it, the item she was planning to wear at her wedding? ;-) (Rika) And she throws herself into Morris's arms, which is a bit odd considering that she does so in front of two people she's never met. So I think she's upset. Didn't she glance at Edward first, before throwing herself in Morris' arms. I thought she did it specifically to show him.

(lindak) This is another reason why this whole scene, and what follows is so confusing. I can't, no matter how convincing some of the posts are, believe that we aren't meant to think something more happened. Maybe not a complete slank, but close to it. Or, is all of the confusion simply due to the editing? I can't believe it was just a kiss. There had to have been something, if not slanking, then maybe a little roll in the moss, some grope and grab? There are several reasons to suspect something more intimate transpired. (Kate F) When you see Edward walk in on Morris, Edward doesn't look at all embarrassed, or even smug. And given Edward's childishness, he'd be unable to avoid gloating. And the reference to "exotic child bride" would be more leering than disparaging if Edward had been successful with Heloise. I thought Edward seemed quite mellow after returning to the house. It's true, he isn't gloating and that would seem called for, in light of Edward and Morris' relationship, had full-blown slanking occurred. However, when Morris points out the moss on his clothes, Edward just picks a little off and says "can't get away from it." He doesn't even rise to the bait when Morris tells him to leave the alcohol for the guests, instead of putting it away to please Gamma. Edward actually bows to Morris and puts the alcohol back! I feel Edward must be somewhat satisfied with whatever has happened with Heloise. It seems to me that, had he been shot down entirely in his attempts with her, he would have returned to the house in a very angry mood. And the way he moves around Morris, hovering over him, seemed like he was almost toying with him. The only time Edward gets slightly riled is when Morris threatens him with cutbacks for the moss factory. And even then, Edward remains comparatively calm. And then there's the question of that moss... (Karen) ...they had thrown moss at each other earlier, which is the same moss in his hair and on his clothes later. It appears to me that Edward has considerably more moss in the later scene than he had right after Heloise threw the moss at him. Right after she throws it, you can see a little on the right side of his back. Later, in the house, it's in his hair, on the back of his collar, right lapel, left lapel, left shoulder. Lots more moss. Of course, this could be a continuity thing, or it could be an effort to fit with Morris' dialogue, which mentions hanks of moss hanging off Edward's clothing and hair. Add to all this the fact that Edward returned to the house first, and Heloise later. Had she been running away from him, she would have come in first. Instead, she just comes in and checks her image in the mirror and tries to straighten up a little, looking for her choker in her clothes. Not the actions of someone who has just been "attacked." Strange, though, that Heloise isn't the least bit "mossy." Perhaps she took more time than Edward to remove the moss, and that's why she came back later. Or not. Very confusing film. I think one thing one minute, and another the next.

(Rika) When she comes back in she seems pretty agitated (more so than she did when last we saw her in the moss factory, in fact). And she throws herself into Morris's arms, which is a bit odd considering that she does so in front of two people she's never met. So I think she's upset. (Karen) But isn't that when she realizes she has lost the family heirloom choker and, of course, makes no effort to go back and find it, the item she was planning to wear at her wedding? Yes, worried about the choker. However, other than that, she sounds rather breathless and looks a little flushed and starry-eyed, like someone who just had a roll in the moss with the Stairmaster! ;-)

Remember ladies, Edward has a very high opinion of himself and obviously has his own justification for his actions. Therefore when Heloise is speaking of moral conduct he gives the opinion it would apply to the average person but not him as he feels he is of a higer morality. Also he doesn't feel he's done anything wrong. As Moira lets him persue whatever he wants, this persuit is just another prize to be gained. The choker could have just fallen off downstairs. Doesn't necessarily mean it fell off on physical contact. I think she was agitated as the first thing Morris says to her when she enters the room is "are you all right?" So he can see she's troubled. Then she touches her neck and realizes the choker is missing. I don't think she could have gone right back to the loft as the guests had just arrived. I also feel she didn't say anything to keep the peace because if she didn't care for the adults she certainly did care for those kids and wouldn't have hurt them. If Morris made an issue, which f course he would have done, and rightly so, the children would have been hurt as a result. Being that this was a relationship added for the movie and not in the book itself, there is no way of confirming any interpretations unless we can get it from the screen writer. So unfortunately all analysis is left to conjecture. Honestly, I don't think he got anywhere other than grabbing at her and she, atleast by the vocal rejections we heard wasn't having any of it. He just wanted her and that was that. And in ignoring Moira in front of her was his way of "proving to her" that he still wanted her. He had alot of growing up to do. I don't think they could have left because wasn't that the time they were getting married? So she couldn't really have Morris leave then so she was stuck. But it seemed a good amount of time had passed before they returned for the game. Edward was used to getting his way and winning. Obviously he couldn't do anything physically about it because she was gone. So suppose he worked up in his mind the loft as a partial success; he did physically touch her and kiss her no matter how it really was, which enabled him to consciously say he had won the bet months before and to have the guts to say so in public at the reading of the will. Which of course was a major mistake. But again, at all costs, he had to be proven the winner. Whether he did or not in reality, obviously is not the issue here. In his mind he did and was proud of the fact or he never would have boasted of it as he did. Another feather in his cap, better because it was Morris' feather, although initially this was not a factor. He was totally in awe of her from the first time he saw her, as was everyone else in the house so it seems, except for Moira and Gamma of course. Not unusual for a child of Fraser's age to want to do exactly what his father is against. Very natural and common behavior. Remember when Gamma was sloshed and said her husband thought all women were prostitutes in one way or another. His books and personal things were so well hidden. I'm not too sure he wasn't a dilly dallier.

Another slight intermission... Currently watching La Femme Nikita with Tchecky Karyo - Gabriel in MLSF. Very well done movie! Limited dialogue (less subtitle reading required), but it wasn't needed. OK, back to the feature presentation....

(Kate F) When you see Edward walk in on Morris, Edward doesn't look at all embarrassed, or even smug. And given Edward's childishness, he'd be unable to avoid gloating. (Kathy) And the way he moves around Morris, hovering over him, seemed like he was almost toying with him. As I said earlier, the body language tells me Edward wants to provoke Morris. I used to believe it was smugness, but am not sure. If I'd had to describe it to Colin in my follow-up question, it would've been "trying to get in Morris' face." He wants to be noticed. Why? Because of the moss hanging all over him? Maybe. Who knows what he might have said to Morris if the guests had not shown up. He might have said, "well, Morris, I've been rolling around in that worthless moss with your exotic child-bride. Nice way to spend an afternoon. I recommend it highly. Heloise certainly enjoyed it too." (Kathy) It appears to me that Edward has considerably more moss in the later scene than he had right after Heloise threw the moss at him....Of course, this could be a continuity thing I'd go with continuity to be realistic. ;-)

Was looking for a photo and came across this. I'm sure it's not new to a lot of you, but may be a first time for some! LA Times, August 10, 1997 About his character: "You play some of these scenes and you wonder if there's any redemption to him at all," reflects Firth. "There's a high level of play about Edward. He clearly has a love for his family, adores his life, thinks it's paradise. But his folly threatens it all. And at times you think he's unspeakable and lacks compassion. It's a fine line to walk." More from the LA Times interview Loch Eck, Scotland - Actor Colin Firth, clad in striped one-piece 1920s-style swimsuit, runs along the lake shore to a small wooden jetty with three young boys, white towels 'round their waist, in pursuit. Firth jumps into the bitterly chill water (estimated temperature 4-degrees Celsius), but the boys skid to a halt at the jetty's end. Teeth chattering and breathless with cold, he vainly urges them to join him. Then he emerges from the freezing lake to a hearty round of applause from director Hugh Hudson and his crew on "World of Moss". "You''ve earned your money today Colin," says one. Firth nods mutely. He's been hearing about this scene all day in series of jokes from crew members. It's not only that Firth would have to brave the bitter cold of the icy loch; the other source of mirth is that he became a major name in Britain partly as result of another scene in which he got soaked.

Thanks for posting the article, Lisa. Great fun reading that account. And from that, we can assume he only did it once. estimated temperature 4-degrees Celsius I wonder if, in the US, a child actor would be barred from performing this stunt. Child labor laws???

Thanks Lisa for the article. I keep wondering why this film has never been shown on TV cable.

(Karen)As I recall, Forman really seemed to hate his father, I am all astonishment! The ungrateful brat!! Who his father was (as portrayed by MLSF) is very clearly why he is what he is -- opinionated: I guess he wanted to say to the world, "You wouldn't believe my Dad!" sentimental: unsentimental people don't look back at anything wistfully lover of music: different from Dad's but still a lover and, willing to work with emerging technology: became instrumental in that new-fangled business of TV. He owes a lot to his father whether he is willing to admit it or not. (Karen)...so I guess Edward came off pretty good. Probably wouldn't have fit into the Miramax mold to have a more antagonistic or hateful relationship in this kind of sweet movie. Definitely, very good in light of that news. Am so glad that Hugh Hudson and Miramax could appreciate the man more. More antagonistic and hateful wouldn't have fit with Fraser's age either, so it is best. (Karen)About time you got here, Caribou!! I was going to email you I wasn't very many days behind but many, many posts! Good to see such enthusiasm. Love your interpretations of their names. Always entertaining and creative. Many, many thanks. I have so much fun thinking of them and the best part is the writers will never tell me I'm wrong. (They will also never tell me I'm right, but that's beside the point!;-) )

Caribou, and anyone else, here is the link for the page where I copied the article excerpts from the LA Times. They have an interview with the author and go into his relationship with his father from his perspective and discuss his portrayal of their relationship in the book. http://colinfirthrolespage.tripod.com/mlsf.html

Thanks Lisa for the roles page articles CF:" The movie is behind schedule, a nuisance since he had arranged to go on a trip in 2 days' time, which he has decided to make anyway. 'I've been a bit distracted sorting things out and packing up,' he explains." He was off to Italy.He got married a few weeks later. MEM later said in an interview that they all packed up after the shoot and took off to Cita de Pieve(sp?) Actually, I think he had to return during the summer to re-shoot some scenes.

(Kathy)However, other than that, she sounds rather breathless and looks a little flushed and starry-eyed, like someone who just had a roll in the moss with the Stairmaster! ;-) Who wouldn't;-))) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the link, Lisa. I followed that one to Lisbeth's Timeline and enjoyed that one, too. (Colin)It's a rigorously truthful film and any truthful story is a wonderful thing. Just had to quote that because I like it when he talks about storytelling. :-) (Hugh Hudson-director)...Edward is a child at play in the adult world. Probably explains why I like him so much. And, now ladies, if you are looking for a way to pamper yourself this weekend, of which even the ultra-clean Edward would approve, you should visit www.pamperingpotions.com. I did a product search for "moss" and came up with two pages. Soap, lotion, and even candles--all of them, as George in You've Got Mail would say: mossy! The Seamoss Energising Bath & Shower Therapy even has a Darcy connection. It also contains horsechestnut!:-)

(Caribou) but doesn't Moira say"...perfectly free of sin in their hearts" right as she reaches for Edward's hand. Her body language here says to me "just like my dear Edward" and when he pulls his away his body language says, "uh, let's not talk about that right now". Yes, that is what she says although it starts with "dogs," which Edward is also like. ;-) Some might also construe his hand withdrawal as not wanting her help in this argument, as in "Mumsy, I can do this myself." Another possibility, but he does look so intrigued with Heloise at the time. Right after that exchange is another humdinger for Moira. With these kind of hints, how could she not have figured out what had happened: E: The Christian faith is a very muscular thing, Heloise. It isn't damaged by ridicule. It's much stronger than . . . H: Temptation? Than duty? Than what? What is it much stronger than? Heloise really knows how to stick it to him! ;-) (Kathy) she sounds rather breathless and looks a little flushed and starry-eyed, like someone who just had a roll in the moss with the Stairmaster! ;-) True, or the moss factory was far away from the main house and she had to run, having missed the final moss cigar shuttle of the day. ;-) (Pam) Also he doesn't feel he's done anything wrong. Even someone with a high opinion of themselves would have to know he'd done something wrong, especially with the kind of morality that had been drilled into Edward. The real Adam Forman met the Smith brothers (aka MacIntoshs, not the cough drop guys) at school. The head master of that school was famous for the way he molded his boys to have the right Character, which was described as "something between that of Arnold at Rugby and the concept of Scouting to be promoted in the next century by Baden-Powell....The Head's character requirements were that a boy be manly, truthful, pure and a sportsman." Each of these elements is described in more detail, but the one on purity is as follows: "Purity must have meant freedom from sexual fantasies, avoiding masturbation and not getting into bed with other boys." (Pam) In his mind he did and was proud of the fact or he never would have boasted of it as he did. Another feather in his cap, better because it was Morris' feather, although initially this was not a factor. Good point, though, that the attraction was real and his pursuit of her was not to "get Morris." (Caribou) He owes a lot to his father whether he is willing to admit it or not. I'm sure he'd acknowledge his family's love of music and the arts, but I think his dislike of his father had to do with religion (must peruse that section) and the rigidity of his attitudes.

Also, by titling his book, "Son of Adam," I think he is acknowledging his father's influence.

(Sorry, forgot who said this since I copied it, but then proceeded to catch up on posts from other topics)Very logical and we know she didn't do it, otherwise Edward would've had a broken nose at a minimum. Either she felt culpable or she felt her position in this family was too new to cause problems. I'm not sure Heloise didn't tell Morris about her moss encounter with Edward. Remember before Morris hits Edward he calls him a lothario. That's what made me feel that Heloise had told Morris something (though she may have not told him all just like the movie doesn't tell its audience all). There are no other examples in the movie to support Edward being a lothario, so I figured Heloise told Morris something.

Karen, I went back and saw it was your quote. Where would Morris get lothario from if not Heloise, or has Morris been figuring things out like Moira? Plus doesn't lothario mean more than one woman? Here we go again with all the gaps in this film ;-). (Karen)MLSF is also a story of a son's separation from his father, where the father is finally seen as not only a mere mortal, but a very flawed one as well. Fraser starts out the movie worshiping his father ("he's an inventor and a genius") but, by the end, Fraser has embraced everything his father has preached against (jazz and the pseudo strong drink symbolized by the brandy snifter). You make a very wise point here and this is also part of the process of a boy coming of age where one begins to separate and distinguish oneself from parents in order to more easily leave the nest. That makes the UK endings fit a lot better into what's happening in Fraser's life (going off to boarding school). His father's explanations have never made any sense to Fraser, even as he goes off to school. But will his questions better be answered out in the real world? Maybe when you compare that to Edward's way of answering his son's life questions. They really only communicated well when they woofed at each other. After that Fraser grew leaps and bounds above Edward in the way he tried to figure out life.

Lisa, thanks for that MLSF link. Very insteresting stuff and to go back in time to when it was being released. One of those MLSF posters reminded me of the poster from TIOBE with the picnic on the lawn scene (the one that Rika enlarged on her camera :-)).

(Caribou) He owes a lot to his father whether he is willing to admit it or not. (Karen)I'm sure he'd acknowledge his family's love of music and the arts, but I think his dislike of his father had to do with religion (must peruse that section) and the rigidity of his attitudes. Let us know what the section says. His reaction to his father's religion is not uncommon. I often think of how we are formed in rebellion to and in conformity to our families. What we choose to rebel against and conform to makes us our own unique persons. I also think Denis can have strong opinions against religion because his father had strong opinions for. He is probably more like his father than he can see. (Karen)Also, by titling his book, "Son of Adam," I think he is acknowledging his father's influence. Excellent point! Now I feel better. He has also portrayed his father truthfully (as CF points out), despite his feelings, and has recorded his father's life for each individual to judge as it suits them. (Karen)MLSF is also a story of a son's separation from his father, where the father is finally seen as not only a mere mortal, but a very flawed one as well. (Lora)You make a very wise point here and this is also part of the process of a boy coming of age where one begins to separate and distinguish oneself from parents in order to more easily leave the nest. That makes the UK endings fit a lot better into what's happening in Fraser's life (going off to boarding school). It always seems sad even though it's actually a natural and necessary part of everyone's life. Someone once told me, "God knew you'd have a hard time letting go of your children so, he made them teenagers first.":-) (Lora)They really only communicated well when they woofed at each other. I absolutely love that part of the movie! I know (at least) two very intelligent, eccentric men and one says "Woof" and the other "Moo"! BTW, Lisbeth's Timeline contains a quote from the book about an incident when Adam barked but wished he hadn't. It's worth searching for.

Some might also construe his hand withdrawal as not wanting her help in this argument, as in "Mumsy, I can do this myself." Another possibility, but he does look so intrigued with Heloise at the time. To me, it's this latter point. He doesn't acknowledge Moira with so much as a flick of the eye when he removes his hand. He is totally focused on Heloise and I think wants neither any distraction nor to be "claimed" by another woman in Heloise's presence. And I think those are precisely Moira's reasons for touching his hand to begin with - to try to bring Edward mentally back to her side of the table and to say to Heloise, "This is MY husband." (Karen) E: The Christian faith is a very muscular thing, Heloise. It isn't damaged by ridicule. It's much stronger than . . . H: Temptation? Than duty? Than what? What is it much stronger than? Yes, even if Moira hadn't been suspicious before, this would have clinched it. I wonder if Gamma didn't notice something at dinner too. There's one close-up where she looks very disturbed, and nothing else is really going on that would cause her to be so. Maybe that's why she takes refuge in the sherry trifle. (Lora) I'm not sure Heloise didn't tell Morris about her moss encounter with Edward. Remember before Morris hits Edward he calls him a lothario. That's what made me feel that Heloise had told Morris something (though she may have not told him all just like the movie doesn't tell its audience all). There are no other examples in the movie to support Edward being a lothario, so I figured Heloise told Morris something. If she did tell Morris anything, I don't think she did it immediately, because if she had I really believe Morris would have beaten Edward to a pulp and taken Heloise away from Kiloran at once. She might have said something later on, I suppose. But in her letter to Edward she said, "No one need ever know." I think Morris might have pieced together on his own that something had happened. I don't think he had a clue the night of the dinner - he seems to just be enjoying Heloise's baiting of Edward. I think Morris is also enjoying Heloise's very affectionate behavior towards him (not realizing that it's aimed at Edward). But maybe there were other hints later. And Edward's behavior at the bonspiel, with his comment, "What makes you think she's yours to bet?", might have been a big eye-opener.

(Rika)If she did tell Morris anything, I don't think she did it immediately, because if she had I really believe Morris would have beaten Edward to a pulp and taken Heloise away from Kiloran at once. She might have said something later on, I suppose. But in her letter to Edward she said, "No one need ever know." I agree and should have been more clear that Heloise would have told Morris later after their wedding perhaps. The two of them definitely come back to Kiloran in the wintertime (for bonspiel) with a certain confidence in each other (that wasn't as apparent as before) and a newly formed bond, it seems. Maybe it was her sharing that with him, being (semi?)honest, that helped create that bond. When she writes, "No one need ever know," I think she may be protecting herself and the trust she has created in her marriage, so that it goes no further. I think, at the time, she was also semi-curious about Edward. After all, he is handsome and younger (than Morris), and she's about to spend the rest of her life with a much older man. She does throw the moss at Edward first (in the second moss scene). But in the end, she must see how Morris can offer her a more stable, financially secure life (at a time when war is looming as well). She sees how Edward is so childish, hypocritical, and irresponsible with money. And at the end of the movie, we see that Edward has to sell Kiloran since he had managed it so poorly.

And at the end of the movie, we see that Edward has to sell Kiloran since he had managed it so poorly. My copy didn't end like that!

When the film ends, they tell you what happened to the family and to Fraser and how he grew up to be a big powerful man. But the first said: "As the world moved towards war, Fraser's family was forced to sell their beloved Kiloran." Mismanagement is a possibility, taxes another. Could be others, but it does say "forced."

I watched several scenes of MLSF last night to see things I missed or misinterpreted. I have a different thought on the magma discussion. I know several posts talked about the fact that since Edward was an inventor etc. that it was surprising he didn't know what magma was. I replayed the exchange between Fraser and Edward several times, and I don't think Edward is asking what's magma. Fraser says it's like magma, only thicker. Edward says ah wot's like magma? I think he knows what Fraser is saying, but is embarassed to come right out and talk about-well you know... I also think Fraser, several times, knows exactly what he's asking his father to explain but is just trying to get a rise (no pun intended) out of him, because he knows the sex talk is a very difficult thing for him. I got the impression he already knows what an orgy is-he does quite a bit of reading before this scene, but he's actually trying to make his father squirm.

(lindak). I got the impression he already knows what an orgy is-he does quite a bit of reading before this scene, but he's actually trying to make his father squirm. Or testing his father to see if he'll tell Fraser the truth or side-step the issue. Part of his changing view of his father. Karen, I like your observation about Fraser's 180-degree change in his opinion of his father. Very much a part of growing up, although a greater amount of disenchantment than most kids have about their parents as they come to see the flaws. (Caribou)I did a product search for "moss" and came up with two pages. LOL! My town had a street fair today, and one of the crafters had hand-made soap. Well, of course I had to ask. At first the thought I meant seaweed. But I said, no, moss. He said he'd never heard of moss soap. He tried to be polite, but I suspect he thought I was insane.

Caribou: What a wise person who gave the quote on teenagers. How relevant and accurate. Thanks for sharing. Sorry Karen, am trying to do italics and folowing instructions and using correct tags but it's not working.

I will email you, Pam. It's easiest that way.

I wanted to make some comments about the music in the movie (probably TMI for most people, so I'll apologize in advance). I read somewhere that Harvey W. ordered a revised sound track before the film was released. I would have loved to have heard the original to see how it changed. Of course they had to include some Beethoven since it's one of Edward's passions. The Fifth Symphony is used, among other things, for the casting lesson and Fraser's fishing trips. And we just barely hear Fur Elise in the background during the scene where Fraser has pneumonia and catches Gamma with her teeth out. The choice of Fur Elise could have been a play on Heloise's name, but probably not, because it's used at a point in the film where she's not at the estate and not really driving anything that happens. The Appassionata Sonata is used to underscore Fraser's anger when Edward belittles him in front of Heloise and sends him away from the moss loft. A good choice - it's fiery, passionate music that matches Fraser's mood as he rejects his father and discovers the secret library. It's interesting that we see Fraser "playing" the sonata on a player piano - I'm sure most of the pianola rolls in the house were of Beethoven. Then there's the slow movement from String Quartet 135, which is used more or less as Edward's Angst Theme. I love this piece - it has so much depth of feeling and pathos. I believe it is first used when the letter from Heloise arrives in the mail, continuing through to the scene in Edward's study as he reads the letter. It is used again at the wake, near the end of Moira's rant (it starts when the camera lands on Edward in a tight close-up), and continues as Edward walks slowly down the stairs, and then sits in his study that night. They subtly wove references to Beethoven into a few other parts of the soundtrack, too. For example, when Fraser is on the roof and he and Edward are barking at one another, there's a repeated four-note motif in the music that has the same rhythm, and almost (but not quite) the same notes as the famous "bmm bmm bmm BMM" theme from the Fifth Symphony. And there's just a short quote of "Fur Elise" before Edward appears in the lake, wearing his wet-suit invention. I also like the way jazz music is used as a sort of unofficial theme for Morris. His early scenes are all underscored by jazz music, which serves to underline the breadth of the Edward/Morris conflict. They agree on so little � not even music.

Okay, so I got way too serious talking about the music, so it's time to get entirely shallow and superficial. And I have just the thing. There's something that has not yet been mentioned in our discussion.... and yet it's hard to find a film discussion that doesn't at least briefly touch on this topic. So I invite you to visit a little homage to one specific aspect of Edward's clothing (and, no, I'm not talking about left vs. right ;-D): http://www.geocities.com/rika9150/cf/mssf.html

(Lindak) Morris: You're a shabby little lothario, you're a joke (Lora) I'm not sure Heloise didn't tell Morris about her moss encounter with Edward. Remember before Morris hits Edward he calls him a lothario. That's what made me feel that Heloise had told Morris something (though she may have not told him all just like the movie doesn't tell its audience all). There are no other examples in the movie to support Edward being a lothario, so I figured Heloise told Morris something. (Lora) Where would Morris get lothario from if not Heloise, or has Morris been figuring things out like Moira? Plus doesn't lothario mean more than one woman? This line really bothers me, because up until Heloise appears on the scene, Edward seems totally in love with Moira. They are always cuddling and seem thoroughly happy, not at all like a couple in trouble. Shortly after Morris first arrives (sans Heloise), Gamma tells him, "Edward worships Moira, and Moira adores him." If Edward were actually a lothario, wouldn't Gamma see it? Wouldn't Moira? (Rika) If she did tell Morris anything, I don't think she did it immediately, because if she had I really believe Morris would have beaten Edward to a pulp and taken Heloise away from Kiloran at once. She might have said something later on, I suppose. But in her letter to Edward she said, "No one need ever know." An excellent point, because had Heloise actually told Morris, I don't think she could have sworn him to secrecy. And, had Moira suspected Edward of any previous flings, surely she would have brought them up when she was on a roll at the funeral. If she had more ammo, she would have fired it off, IMO. Perhaps Morris is using "lothario" in a broader sense -- referring to Edward's enthusiasm for slanking, and Moira's many pregnancies as evidence. Only Edward's boast of "I've already won it. I'm not talking about the estate either, Morris. I won the bet months ago" sends Morris over the edge. Until that moment, I don't think he had any idea that Heloise and Edward might have had a sexual encounter. Of course, he would have to be a complete idiot to miss Edward's infatuation with Heloise.

I love your explanation of all the music, Rika. It's not too serious at all. It puts a lot more meaning into the sound of Beethoven in the movie than just the sound of God when he's sleeping. (Rika)The choice of Fur Elise could have been a play on Heloise's name, but probably not, because it's used at a point in the film where she's not at the estate and not really driving anything that happens. But I think you're right, it is a play on Heloise's name and perhaps used to signify her absence. It's in homage to her. Her absence is felt. Fraser even remarks that the house was so quiet. It was uneventful without her.

Your link to Edward's socks really covers the long and short of it ;-). (Kathy)Perhaps Morris is using "lothario" in a broader sense -- referring to Edward's enthusiasm for slanking, and Moira's many pregnancies as evidence. I just don't see a proper use of the term lothario for activities with one's own wife. Like the children said it's something you do with someone you love. (Kathy)Only Edward's boast of "I've already won it. I'm not talking about the estate either, Morris. I won the bet months ago" sends Morris over the edge. Until that moment, I don't think he had any idea that Heloise and Edward might have had a sexual encounter. Of course, he would have to be a complete idiot to miss Edward's infatuation with Heloise. Their conversation and Edward's boast at the bonspiel is evidence that Morris could use to call him a lothario and suspect they had a sexual encounter. Although, when Heloise said at the dinner table that you can't do a bad thing and be a good man, you can't have it both ways - that might have helped Morris start putting it all together too (like Moira had already started doing). Maybe Morris was unsure how many times they were together, if Heloise had told him nothing.

Sock it to us, Rika! Love it and thanks for the great visual "support" (probably the knee-highs). Back later to comment on the weekend's gleanings, but am going to delete Kathy's repeat post to make it easier. No big deal. :)

RIKA Great stuff. Thank you so much. KATHY I think he meant it in the broader sense too. I watched it again this morning and I watched Morris' face when Edward told him he won the bet. There was a definite element of surprise before he punched him. Men view things differently from women. Morris may very well not have picked up on anything because he was so sure of Heloise because of the way she was with him that he didn't consider anything like that as a possibility. Edward and his ramblings I think Morris always took with a grain of salt, possibly not really hearing what he says, you know in one ear and out the other, as I have the impression he never gave any serious creedence to Edward or what he said or thought, so he would dismiss him. Still trying to figure out relationship of Uncle Crawford and his wife to Gamma. Must be lost in editing. But they are always there so I feel they are related and living there. In the opeing scene the wife is hugging Moira when Fraser is on the roof, and really visibly shaken at the funeral and sitting with the family as well as present at dinner party. And at the Bonspiel Fraser calls him Uncle Crawford. So obviously related somehow.

(Rika) I read somewhere that Harvey W. ordered a revised sound track before the film was released. I would have loved to have heard the original to see how it changed. I seem to remember Harvey added the jazz. Great stuff on the music, Rika. I always think it's a great part of a film. Like in P&P *sigh*. Nice pic page. Ooops you caught him off guard with the towel flying.... Personally I always go for the blue suit at the dinner table. Actually, I think I acquired that in Keepsakes years ago.

I adore the socks, Rika, thanks! (Totally OT, I'm a big fan of socks; they're actually fast and easy to knit once you master the knack of turning the heels. ) The description of the UK ending echoed something I wondered about the facts-of-life scene...it almost looked to me as if Edward didn't know what the f-word was when Frasier asked about it. Interesting!

(Karen) Back later to comment on the weekend's gleanings, but am going to delete Kathy's repeat post to make it easier. No big deal. :) Sorry! It didn't seem to go anywhere the first time, so I attributed to PMS (Possessed Mouse Syndrome) and hit submit again. Will I ever conquer this? *groan* Rika, thanks for the music info. The soundtrack is so important to the feeling of this film, and your explanations were very enlightening. Also loved My Socks So Far (and the Stairmaster doing his thing. Now I think I'll go slomo that running with the towel scene.

Thanks, Rika for the music info. I've taken notes and will go search my CD's. I would love to have a soundtrack but I've never seen it available. Is that all of the Beethoven? Just 4 pieces, right? Is "Sunny Side of the Street" the only jazz we hear? Where would one find a copy of the one Moira sang? What did Heloise play on the cello? See, that wasn't TMI. I'm not sure that's possible when we explore all things Firth.

Thank you, Rika, for the visuals and music info. As, always, you are a great source of enlightenment to the senses. (Evelyn)Personally I always go for the blue suit at the dinner table My absolute favorite as well. I think he looks especially handsome in that scene. I watched again last night and I was struck by another flashback/look-alike scene to BJD. When Edward is leaving the parlor after the funeral fiasco, and begins to walk down the steps-He looks exactly like Mark Darcy in the airport scene.(The part where he is walking toward the driver of the car in NY.) I have been thinking over Morris's remarks-calling Edward a lothario. I don't think if Heloise had told Morris that he would have let it go. I noticed a few looks toward Edward in various scenes that, IMO, seemed as though he saw Edward's attraction, but viewed it as everthing else concerning Edward-with amusement.(Morris, after all, is a millionaire, and we're supposed to view him as someone with a keen sense of things) I don't think he thought it had gone any further, because I think Morris would think Edward was incapable of it, because he viewed him as a joke, and because of Heloise's words-no one ever needs to know. On multiple viewings I get the sense that Morris might have even enjoyed Edward's silly attraction to Heloise, because he was the much older of the two with the 24-year old exotic child bride. It's only after the "I won the bet months ago" remark that it becomes clear that maybe it went beyond Edward's "looks" at Heloise. I, too, think he was taken totally off guard by the remark. Never in a million years would he suspect that Edward might have had his hands on her.

More about the music. While I don't like some of the original music in the soundtrack (some of it sounds too overtly whimsical to me... I don't know if that makes sense but I can't think of another way to put it), I love the main theme used over the titles. I assume it was an original composition and not a reference to a Scottish folk tune - does anyone know? It has the slightly mournful sound of a traditional folk tune, and I think it does a wonderful job of conveying nostalgia. (Caribou) Is that all of the Beethoven? Just 4 pieces, right? Yes. A pity, IMHO - I would have liked for them to use more of it. Is "Sunny Side of the Street" the only jazz we hear? I know they use other songs, but I'm not familiar enough with jazz to recognize them all. (Two to check - about 14 minutes into the film when Morris is outside with his nephews, and just over an hour into the film when Fraser has his "nice dream".) Where would one find a copy of the one Moira sang? That's "A Red, Red Rose," by Robert Burns. Here's a link to the lyrics: http://www.yoga.com/raw/readings/ARedRedRose.html I was curious about the origin of the melody and did a bit of research in preparation for our discussion. Burns originally set his lyrics to a different folk melody, but later a publisher set it to a traditional Scottish folk tune called "Low Down in the Broom," and that's the setting that is best known today. If you'd like to hear an excerpt of a beautiful instrumental setting of the melody, try this link to Amazon: "Celtic Memories" CD on Amazon Scroll down to "Listen to Samples" - it's track #5. What did Heloise play on the cello? That's "Le Cygne" (The Swan) by Camille Saint-Saens, from a larger piece called (in English) "The Carnival of the Animals." They cleverly connect this piece (and, thus, Heloise) to Fraser's secret books - at one point Fraser finds a photo of a naked lady with a swan. (Lora) But I think you're right, it is a play on Heloise's name and perhaps used to signify her absence. It's in homage to her. Her absence is felt. Fraser even remarks that the house was so quiet. It was uneventful without her. Lora, I love this explanation! Incidentally, there's a story that (if true) makes the piece an even more appropriate choice. I found this quote online from a book by William A. Palmer: "Fur Elise is probaby the all-time hymn to unrewarded love. When Ludwig gave the song to Elise she said, 'It sounds like a funeral song.'"

Just a quickie for now--because I need to spend some "quality time" at Fan Fic--but I believe I've another way to view the "lothario" reference. I too do not believe that Helosie ever told Morris about the mossloft incident. In common usage, lothario is a charming man who seduces and deceives women, a libertine, a rake. However, it comes from Nicholas 'Rowe's 1703 tragedy "The Fair Penitent," where Lothario was the prototypical "young seducer," a male deceiver, a man whose chief interest is seducing women. "Young" gave me the hint I needed, and I think this goes back to Adam Forman, who spent most of his school holidays at Craigielands (the real Kiloran). Denis' mother was named Flora, but called the "Child," as she was the youngest and did hang out with her brothers and their set, of which Adam was part. When Adam was 18 and the Child was 14, they decided to become engaged. None of this pleased the family and they ultimately did not wed until she was much older (28 actually). Even at 17, the parents thought "Adam Forman was a very good chap but completely untried in the matter of earning a living." And that is where I think Morris' comment is coming from. He views Edward as someone with no profession, who lives off his wife's family and his position on the estate is one of being a charming guy whose only job is to make Moira happy. Add to that Edward's bonspiel bet and Morris would think that being a womanizer is at his core....like magma. ;-) Back with more later.

(Evelyn)Personally I always go for the blue suit at the dinner table (Linda) My absolute favorite as well. I think he looks especially handsome in that scene. Oh, good heavens, yes. He's not always as much "to drool for" in this movie as in, say, BJD, but in that suit in that scene...... sigh..... When Edward is leaving the parlor after the funeral fiasco, and begins to walk down the steps-He looks exactly like Mark Darcy in the airport scene. (The part where he is walking toward the driver of the car in NY.) Ooh - another excuse to watch again (both MLSF and BJD). Oh, and, Linda, you and I are in the back of that car preparing for limo duty, right? :-D (Linda) On multiple viewings I get the sense that Morris might have even enjoyed Edward's silly attraction to Heloise, because he was the much older of the two with the 24-year old exotic child bride. I see it that way too. He had such fun throwing those words in Edward's face in the library, and Morris seems to be having a fine ol' time at the dinner table that night. I've been reading everybody's remarks about what did or didn't happen between Edward and Heloise, and to what extent it was or wasn't consensual on her part, with interest. I started out believing that Edward managed to lay some serious kisses on her that we didn't see, but that she didn't cooperate at all. But many of you have offered good evidence to the contrary. For example, as I've re-watched Edward in the library afterwards, I've concluded that he acts neither like a man who was totally rejected, nor like one who got everything he wanted. And when Heloise runs into the library and throws herself into Morris's arms, that could be either out of horror at what happened (if she didn't consent) or out of guilt (if she did). But to me her behavior at dinner is entirely guilt-free. When Fraser mentions the lady's screams, Edward is shaken, but Heloise merely arches an eyebrow at him. Further, when Edward tries to shut Fraser up, Heloise does everything she can to continue and expand on the topic (with her veiled hints about temptation and the like). Wouldn't she be equally interested in changing the subject if she had been a willing participant? Sometimes I wonder if the reason we're having such a hard time figuring out what happened is because the cast didn't really know either. CF's noncommittal response to the question has already been mentioned. I would hope that, at the very least, he and IJ arrived at an agreement about what happened, but maybe it was ambiguous in their minds too. If so, we'll never figure it out.

Maybe Morris thinks Edward fits into Samuel's belief that "we are all indeed prostitutes." ;-)

(Karen)He views Edward as someone with no profession, who lives off his wife's family and his position on the estate is one of being a charming guy whose only job is to make Moira happy. Add to that Edward's bonspiel bet and Morris would think that being a womanizer is at his core I suppose we could stretch that characterization to be called a L(l)othario, but I've also heard of that being called a sponge (hmmm, interestingly similar to the use of his moss in WWI, Edward's only successful contribution to society ;-)). (Karen)Maybe Morris thinks Edward fits into Samuel's belief that "we are all indeed prostitutes." ;-) In some way or other, this description fits also. Edward services Moira, and in return gets to have his freedom with the Estate, and ultimately ownership of the Estate. As an aside, I seem to remember CF, IRL, rejecting being called a lothario in a magazine article since it had only been two co-stars with whom he had become involved ;-). Funny how his art imitates his life (and other movies) sometimes ;-).

Ah jeez, forgot to close the blasted tags. Too busy thinking about the back of that car.

Am reposting Linda's from above, as the blasted tags weren't closed. No big deal. Response 396 of 397: lindak (lindak) * Mon, Aug 5, 2002 (14:21) * 9 lines (Lora)As an aside, I seem to remember CF, IRL, rejecting being called a lothario in a magazine article since it had only been two co-stars with whom he had become involved ;-). Lora, you took the words right out of my post. I was just thinking of that, I recall he was a bit testy when he was labled a lothario because of JE and MT. Didn't he meet Livia on the set of N? Just reminiscing...winkie-(haven't learned to do them yet.) (Rika) Oh, and, Linda, you and I are in the back of that car preparing for limo duty, right? :-D And where else would we be? Shall I make the coffee or do you want the first pot.

(Rika) I wonder if Gamma didn't notice something at dinner too. There's one close-up where she looks very disturbed, and nothing else is really going on that would cause her to be so. Maybe that's why she takes refuge in the sherry trifle. Getting drunk on that sherry trifle has been a bothersome point. I have images in my mind of some I Love Lucy episode (?), where everybody adds a hit of booze to some dish, not knowing that others have as well. How much could the poor kitchen maid have added that would cause Gamma to become soused and to get sacked the next day? It is amusing how Gamma mumbles under breath about how the cook has managed a good meal, something she rarely does. This has its origins in the book as well. The cook was universally acknowledged as being awful, except for baking. How does one keep a job as a cook if you can't cook? What does that say about Gamma's real skill in running a household? (Linda) I don't think Edward is asking what's magma. Fraser says it's like magma, only thicker. Edward says ah wot's like magma? I think he knows what Fraser is saying, but is embarassed to come right out and talk about-well you know... You know what? I agree with you. He's flustered and doesn't know how to broach this topic with the boy, his oldest. First time through for him. (Linda) I got the impression he already knows what an orgy is-he does quite a bit of reading before this scene, but he's actually trying to make his father squirm. (Kate) Or testing his father to see if he'll tell Fraser the truth or side-step the issue. Part of his changing view of his father. Very good observation. A test, which dad fails miserably. So Fraser is back to relying on Grandpa MacIntosh's private stash of erotica for this part of his education. Rika, loved your examination of the musical selections. It's always interesting when people bring their other interests to the fore to benefit all in these film discussions. Thank you. (Rika) I'm sure most of the pianola rolls in the house were of Beethoven. Were there not other busts of composers on display? From the book, the approved composers of "manly music" were: "Bach (mathematical) and then leapt to Beethover (a ripper), Schubert (tuneful), Schumann (deep), Brahms (great) and above all Wagner." (Rika) I also like the way jazz music is used as a sort of unofficial theme for Morris. His early scenes are all underscored by jazz music, which serves to underline the breadth of the Edward/Morris conflict. They agree on so little - not even music. True. But Heloise seems to span the two, with her classical cello and jazz piano. (Kathy) because up until Heloise appears on the scene, Edward seems totally in love with Moira. They are always cuddling and seem thoroughly happy, not at all like a couple in trouble. But why do they have to be a couple in trouble? Men (or women for that matter) can have unexplainable, physical attractions to others. It's possible and it doesn't mean anything is lacking in one's spouse. (Pam) I watched Morris' face when Edward told him he won the bet. There was a definite element of surprise before he punched him...I have the impression he never gave any serious credence to Edward or what he said or thought, so he would dismiss him. (Linda) I don't think he thought it had gone any further, because I think Morris would think Edward was incapable of it, because he viewed him as a joke Makes sense to me. Not only that, he wouldn't have taken it seriously that Edward would attempt to seduce his wife, only that he was being childish. (Elizabeth) The description of the UK ending echoed something I wondered about the facts-of-life scene...it almost looked to me as if Edward didn't know what the f-word was when Frasier asked about it. Interesting! Since he had to look it up (for the UK ending), I'd say he and Moira had a very conventional sex life. Apparently, Gamma hadn't taught Moira anything that her dear Samuel had probably brought to their bed from his extensive reading. ;-) Unless that was his sole source of titillation or enjoyment. (Rika) He's not always as much "to drool for" in this movie as in, say, BJD, but in that suit in that scene......sigh. While the blue suit is magnificent, I beg to differ. I think he looks marvelous and highly droolworthy in a number of outfits, especially when his jacket is off and he's wearing a vest (flying the kite, eating the asbestos) and spectacles. Mmmmmm, very lovely. Not too shabby in those whites either! (Rika) Wouldn't she be equally interested in changing the subject if she had been a willing participant? Very logical. (Lora) but I've also heard of that being called a sponge (hmmm, interestingly similar to the use of his moss in WWI, Edward's only successful contribution to society ;-)). LOL! But a pure sponge wouldn't have to service his wife.

(Karen) While the blue suit is magnificent, I beg to differ. I think he looks marvelous and highly droolworthy in a number of outfits, especially when his jacket is off and he's wearing a vest (flying the kite, eating the asbestos) and spectacles. Mmmmmm, very lovely. Not too shabby in those whites either! Didn't mean to cast aspersions on ODB's appearance. I don't find him undroolworthy, just a little less so than at his maximum (which to me is BJD). I realize it's a difference in the roles. His job in BJD was to be enormously attractive and remote at all times (I loved the line from one article, "Even in a reindeer jumper, he is raw sex in a reindeer jumper"), while here he's a much more complex character who has his gorgeous days and his foolish-looking days as well. But, yes, your examples are all very fine ones indeed!

(Karen) But why do they have to be a couple in trouble? Men (or women for that matter) can have unexplainable, physical attractions to others. It's possible and it doesn't mean anything is lacking in one's spouse. Of course it's perfectly normal for married people to find others attractive. Being married doesn't mean you are dead, and it certainly doesn't hurt to look. However, Edward definitely did more than look at Heloise. Obviously Moira didn't consider theirs an open marriage, and even if she had, would attempting to seduce your brother's fiancee be considered harmless? At any rate, in my original post, I was trying to explain why I didn't think Edward was actually a lothario, in the strictest sense of the word. I must not have done a very good job of explaining. ;-) (Linda) I don't think Edward is asking what's magma. Fraser says it's like magma, only thicker. Edward says ah wot's like magma? I think he knows what Fraser is saying, but is embarassed to come right out and talk about-well you know... (Karen) You know what? I agree with you. He's flustered and doesn't know how to broach this topic with the boy, his oldest. First time through for him. This brings up something I've been wondering about. Is Fraser the oldest? I don't think so, because there is that taller boy (name?) who definitely looks older than Fraser, and in the swimming scene he addresses Edward as "Father." He is taller than Fraser, and his musculature is more well-defined, so I'm fairly sure he is older. In which case, why doesn't Edward have the answers ready for the birds and bees talk? Perhaps because Fraser is so precocious, and has been reading in the secret library, and the other boy hasn't. (Rika) Oh, good heavens, yes. He's not always as much "to drool for" in this movie as in, say, BJD, but in that suit in that scene...... sigh..... (Karen) While the blue suit is magnificent, I beg to differ. I think he looks marvelous and highly droolworthy in a number of outfits, especially when his jacket is off and he's wearing a vest (flying the kite, eating the asbestos) and spectacles. Mmmmmm, very lovely. Not too shabby in those whites either! How about the dynamite scene? Just after Morris says, "What makes it yours to blow up, Edward?" I hit pause on my DVD, and then slowmo through it, and CF is standing there looking sad, with the wind blowing through his hair. Oooh! And it lasts so long, I can do anything I want to with him! Yummy! ;-) Also, the running with the towel scene was great slowed down! I cannot stress this enough. Coming and going. My goodness!! Now if I only had zoom... Thank you, Rika, for making me take a second (and third, fourth, fifth) look at this.

Excellent comments ladies. I like him best in his slacks, suspenders and button down shirt. I know. Personal preference though. Also like the blue suit at dinner. BJD I'd take him in everything, which is what we're supposed to do. Nothing in that to dislike. Class act all the way.

(Lora) .... the use of his moss in WWI, Edward's only successful contribution to society ;-)). At least he had one!;-) I just can't help but think how easy it would have been for him to be like Mr. Hurst in P&P who greatest achievement was appearing to be a gentleman. I am impressed by the level of routine and commitment the man continually showed. Especially, since his wife always seemed so sleepy. He didn't work as hard at business as Morris but he certainly worked on the things that interested him and provided a good example for his family. Thanks again, Rika, for more info on music. Delightful!

(Caribou) I am impressed by the level of routine and commitment the man continually showed. Especially, since his wife always seemed so sleepy. I'm glad you brought this up. She seems tired all the time. She also often has her arm across her stomach. I thought perhaps she was supposed to be pregnant, but she doesn't seem to get any larger through the film. I've never been sure of the time frame of all the events, though, but it must have encompassed several months. Maybe she's just tired out from having all those children. In a totally unrelated subject, another nagging question -- (when Edward and Fraser are watching the home movies of the wedding) how the heck does the Rotary Screen Mark III work? I bet one of you can enlighten me!

(Pam)BJD I'd take him in everything I'd take him in nothing., (KathyF)I can do anything I want to with him! Yummy! ;-) Exactly what do you have in mind? I also like him in the outfit when he's leaning over the couch explaining the under-the-lawn chimney to Moira and Gamma. Since he had his jacket off, I felt it was my duty to check out the right/left question. Sorry, ladies, the cut of the slacks hampered my investigation.

(Lindak) Exactly what do you have in mind? Oh, I dunno (she said, innocently) :-) At the very least, I can get way up close and check out the color of his eyes. What do you do, when you get close to CF? As far as your "investigation" goes, there are other segments that merit study. The dynamite scene, wherein he is walking quickly toward Morris, is a good place to begin. But make sure to do it in slow motion. And as I said in an earlier post, Rika's suggestion of the bathing suit scene... well, check it out for yourself, but make sure to play it verrrry slowly, or better still, frame by frame, to enjoy it to the fullest extent. Hmmm... I must leave you now, as I feel further study requires me to watch more of MLSF with my trusty remote in hand.

(Kathy) how the heck does the Rotary Screen Mark III work? I wondered about that. I assume Edward didn't invent it, but he made kind of a big deal about it when talking to Fraser. I suppose maybe he was just enamoured of new technology. Maybe she's just tired out from having all those children. There's a bit of basis for Moira's tiredness in the book - it's mentioned that she spent a lot of time during the day in bed, and the kids would go visit her there. This brings up something I've been wondering about. Is Fraser the oldest? I don't think so, because there is that taller boy (name?) who definitely looks older than Fraser, and in the swimming scene he addresses Edward as "Father." I agree - I thought Fraser was the middle of three boys. I figured nobody but Edward's sons would have braved the cold of the loch with him, and I did think that one of the other boys looked older. So you'd think this wouldn't be Edward's first time dealing with a son who was becoming a man. Maybe Fraser was precocious. How about the dynamite scene? Just after Morris says, "What makes it yours to blow up, Edward?" I hit pause on my DVD, and then slowmo through it, and CF is standing there looking sad, with the wind blowing through his hair. Oh, goodness, YES! I slowed that scene down to collect some captures of that gorgeous close-up, and thoroughly enjoyed the breeze gently blowing his hair around. Made me want to run my fingers through it. Mmmmmmmm. Also, the running with the towel scene was great slowed down! I cannot stress this enough. Coming and going. My goodness!! Now if I only had zoom... Thank you, Rika, for making me take a second (and third, fourth, fifth) look at this. Glad to be of assistance. I think at first glance it's hard to see anything but the rather silly-looking striped top to the suit. But once you look past that, there are definite visual pleasures to be enjoyed! (Linda) Sorry, ladies, the cut of the slacks hampered my investigation. Sad, isn't it? I had hoped to provide a Very Special Photo Essay, but made the same discovery you did. Although I like Kathy's suggestion of looking for places where he's walking fast - those spots often yielded good things in P&P2. Ah, back to the movie - such torture....

Lord, you women are incorrigible. I love it. Keep your investigations going and report anything you find. I'm sorry to have nothing to contribute as of late, but I will screen MLSF again and then attempt to wade into right/left discussion better prepared. :))))

Ooops, I've posted this item on the wrong topic and will move 409 and 410.

(Rika) Didn't mean to cast aspersions on ODB's appearance. No, of course, not. I didn't take it that way. :) When ranking his appearance in MLSF, I put a couple of others in front of the blue suit. My personal choices. Everyone would have their own. (Kathy) However, Edward definitely did more than look at Heloise. Obviously Moira didn't consider theirs an open marriage, and even if she had, would attempting to seduce your brother's fiancee be considered harmless? I don't believe I ever mentioned an "open marriage" ;-) But what you have is an immature man-child, given to impetuous behavior, one who is not hampered in anyway by thoughts of consequences to his actions. (Kathy) Is Fraser the oldest? I don't think so, because there is that taller boy (name?) who definitely looks older than Fraser...In which case, why doesn't Edward have the answers ready for the birds and bees talk? Perhaps because Fraser is so precocious, and has been reading in the secret library, and the other boy hasn't. Very likely, you're correct on both counts. I'd forgotten about the taller boy and Denis did have an older brother. But then, why is it Fraser who is going off to boarding school at the end of the other version? Shouldn't the older boy be away? Ah, these nagging questions. ;-) Now, as long as you've brought up the children again, I've always wondered why they are at dinner with the wedding guests? Fraser, the taller boy and Elspeth are seated with the adults, while there is a table off by the window with five children (not all of whom are Edward's and Moira's I believe). The kiddie table brings back fond memories for me. But didn't children eat separately? This wasn't just family, but adult guests. (Lora) .... the use of his moss in WWI, Edward's only successful contribution to society ;-)) (Caribou) At least he had one!;-) But not much of one, from a Scot's standpoint. :-(

(Karen)The kiddie table brings back fond memories for me. But didn't children eat separately? This wasn't just family, but adult guests. I can remember every holiday sitting at a kiddie table at my Grandparents, but I also remember my brother (the oldest grandchild)getting the place of honor beside my grandfather at the adult table. As for the children being there at a family/other adults affair-probably had to do with the fact that it was a celebration in honor of a family wedding. Now, back to another viewing of those scenes in s l o w motion.

On the subject of Fraser being precocious, I'd definitely agree. He's the one who seems to be paying the most attention to his father's experiments (some of which might be educational), and of course there's his "research" in the attic. (There's nothing like the improvement of one's mind through extensive reading!) It's possible that Edward was just as awkward at "the talk" with his eldest son (if he had done that already). What I loved about that scene with Fraser was at the end, when nothing has been explained, Edward acts as if he has explained everything. He says something like "That's all right, then." But this raises another question. Did these kids go to a local school? Did they have a tutor? Was Edward teaching them? Was Moira? I'm enjoying the comments about the kiddie table. I'm an "only," so I got to eat with the grownups. Must be why I have such impeccable table manners now. Oops, was that my sleeve in the soup?

(Kate) Did these kids go to a local school? Did they have a tutor? Was Edward teaching them? Was Moira? They were educated at home till it was time to go away to school (which sounded like it happened around age 12 for the boys, and a little older for the girls). Who did the teaching varied over time - their mother, Gamma, their father, tutors, or some combination of the above.

(Lisa) Keep your investigations going and report anything you find. I'm sorry to have nothing to contribute as of late, but I will screen MLSF again and then attempt to wade into right/left discussion better prepared. (lindak) Now, back to another viewing of those scenes in s l o w motion. I don't want to seem hung up ;-) on a certain topic, but last night as I was trying to ascertain whether or not Fraser was the oldest, I went back to the start of MLSF to study the scene wherein he is on the roof. I thought perhaps I could get a clue from the other children in the opening sequence. I didn't succeed on that count. However, I realized that CF had a very nice stairmaster scene as he climbs the outside staircase on his way to rescue Fraser. And then, because I was moving verrrry slowly, I was able to see that CF's clothes were very lightweight (because it was summer, I suppose) and almost transparent. When the light is behind him (which it is as he enters the house), it's easy to see that he is in no way "pudgy" as he has been accused of being. (See Rika's clever page) And if it weren't for that accursed racket in his hand (what is it with this movie -- towels, rackets?!) some burning questions might have been answered. Still, a lovely shot as he opens the door -- shades of FD. Then, if ou keep slowmo-ing, there's the wonderful stair-climbing sequence. And, during a break from going slow, another of my favorite lines. As Fraser is on the roof, and the men are holding the net below him, "Get the dogs out from under the net! They'll be crushed!" Someone was quite the optimist. :-)

(Karen) But what you have is an immature man-child, given to impetuous behavior, one who is not hampered in anyway by thoughts of consequences to his actions. Not unlike Mark Darcy's impressions of the she-child Bridget. Ironic. I wonder if he ever thought about that during BJD.

*clap clap clap* You did it! :)

Kathy, your thirst for knowledge is an inspiration to us all! Ah, back to the DVD again.......

(Rika) Kathy, your thirst for knowledge is an inspiration to us all! Ah, back to the DVD again....... Yes, if only I had been so dedicated in college! And yet, I suspect you possess at least an equal thirst for knowledge in this area. I bow to my superior!

I forgot about some notes I had made, being the serious student of film that I am... Rika, OMG DVDs are wondrous things! Check out the sequence (of which I am enamored!) when Edward goes up the stairs to rescue Fraser. Butt (why do I always misspell this word?!) this time take it to the top and then slowmo in reverse! CF is even better going down! Wait, I meant.... Take him down and then back up, then down, etc. Be still my heart... or something! :-)

(Rika) your thirst for knowledge is an inspiration to us all! Ah, back to the DVD again....... I find myself unable to turn off my DVD player. For some reason, I am drawn to the screen, like a moth to a flame. If only I weren't allowed to pause for an infinite amount of time!!... Would you PLEASE consider doing a screen capture of the scene wherein Edward comes through the door on his way to rescue Fraser -- you know, the one where you really can't see CF's face. :-( Yet there is something compelling... oh, yes, it's the fact that it's very like the wet shirt scene in P&P2. (Can you say "transparent clothing?") A good look at CF's lovely, slim body, and we can only imagine... Oh, for heaven's sake! Please! Pretty Please, Rika, with a cherry on top!! ;-) A "Hidden Treasure" in a PG-13 film!

well, let's get rid of bold! Hopefully! Karen?

HELP!!

Oh my gosh, Karen! tried to fix those tags and then the whole computer crashed on me. Can you delete or whatever? So sorry! I'll try again. Rats!

Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice intrigue me. They are among the viewing crowd when Edward is demonstrating his galvanized rubber pantaloons. Check out Eunice's dance on the loch's banks. She's like a Scottish cheerleader. Really makes me wonder how these people are related. ;-)

Kathy, I never thought of running it in slow-mo backwards..... now THIS should be interesting! As to the DVD-cap you've requested, I can never resist a direct plea. Check back later today. (Karen) Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice intrigue me. They are among the viewing crowd when Edward is demonstrating his galvanized rubber pantaloons. Check out Eunice's dance on the loch's banks. She's like a Scottish cheerleader. Really makes me wonder how these people are related. ;-) Yes, they're around a whole bunch. I wonder if the explanation of who the heck they are was lost in the editing process? They're in the group walking to and from church too, on at least one occasion. I suppose they must live at the estate. The book did talk about assorted aunts and uncles that lived there at times, didn't it?

Oops. Italics begone.

Are they gone?

Kathy, I took a quick look at the scenes and I'm not positive to which shot you're referring. Can you give me a time stamp on the DVD? I'd hate to disappoint (even though the fleet's not in town). :-)

(Karen) Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice intrigue me. They are among the viewing crowd when Edward is demonstrating his galvanized rubber pantaloons. Check out Eunice's dance on the loch's banks. She's like a Scottish cheerleader. Really makes me wonder how these people are related. ;-) I brought this up several times too, but no one seems to want to discuss it. I thought an explanation was lost in the editing, too. They obviously seem close though. (Rika) Bring on the Butts please!!!!! Thanks Karen, Great Instructions.

(KathyF)Wait, I meant.... Take him down and then back up, then down, etc. I know what you mean...I'd take him down and back up...getting carried away here. OH, please Rika, Rika please do the photo thing. You're the best. Where's that darn car???

(FanPam)I brought this up [Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice] several times too, but no one seems to want to discuss it. I don't think it's that we don't want to discuss it. We just don't know who the heck they are! At least that's my reason. (And I don't want to say anything about them that won't amaze the whole room.)

GAH! closing tags!

(Rika, quoted by Pam) Bring on the Butts please!!!!! I'm not sure who said this but I don't think I did. Not that my saying it would be at all out of character.... ;-D (Linda)OH, please Rika, Rika please do the photo thing. You're the best. Where's that darn car??? The staircase scene is a difficult one from which to do captures (trust me, I've tried). He's moving fast, which means he's at least slightly out of focus much of the time, and the stairs are dimly lit, which makes it worse. I did put a couple of staircase shots on my "My Socks So Far" page - I had to adjust the color somewhat to lighten them. But, Linda, anything for a fellow coffee wench - I'll give it another try.

I'm noting that the more serious portion of our discussion seems to be winding down (not that I'm in the least opposed to doing some serious drooling before we finish up :-D). I did have a few minor points that I wanted to ask about: First, I got part of the title of one of the books Fraser read - I believe it was the one that had the inscription from the (snicker) golfing friend - but all I could see was "Taboos and ??? Perils ??? the ???". Could anybody make out the rest? I'd be curious to know if it was a real book of the time. Second, I found it odd that when Morris and Heloise arrived for the bonspiel, and Heloise was running up the stairs shouting for Fraser ("my favorite nephew"), he seemed to run away from her as fast as he could. All I could think was that his father's lecture about avoiding temptations of the flesh at all costs was in his mind, since it happened a very short time after their conversation in Edward's study. Or am I missing something? Third, a hypothetical question. Suppose that ODB had been unavailable to play Edward Pettigrew for some reason (preferably a lead role in a high-profile drama with Oscar written all over it that actually got PROMOTED by its studio.... hey, a girl can dream). I'm having a hard time thinking of alternatives for the role due to the range of situations and emotions it demands. Who could you imagine in the role besides CF?

(Rika) I got part of the title of one of the books Fraser read The rest of the tomes on the shelf seem to be law books, but the one he pulls down is clearly The Golden Bough, wildly controversial in its day. The author's name and nationality make for an amusing visual joke, too. Bio of James Frazer I think the tallest boy in the pack might belong to the mysterious aunt and uncle, which would explain a lot of things, wouldn't it?

(Rika) I took a quick look at the scenes and I'm not positive to which shot you're referring. Can you give me a time stamp on the DVD? I'd hate to disappoint (even though the fleet's not in town). :-) Well, of course this meant more exhaustive research. I think I may have thumb strain from yesterday. Anyway, the one I was referring to is at 02:39, just as he steps into the doorway of the house, and throws down that blasted racket. He's moving fast, so it's blurry, leaving a lot to the imagination. And I have a very good imagination! ;-) The nice outside stairs scene is at 02:31. (Kate F) I don't think it's that we don't want to discuss it. We just don't know who the heck they are! At least that's my reason. My excuse, also, for ignoring the comments about Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice. I'll try to pay more attention to them next time through, but I have a feeling they are destined to remain something of a mystery. They certainly are at Kiloran a lot, so must live very close by, if not in the house itself.

(KateF)We just don't know who the heck they are! At least that's my reason. Mine too, actually. I must confess, that I paid them no attention at all until Karen brought it up. I knew they were there, but I thought they were just friends that maybe the children called aunt and uncle out of respect. I tend to become quite enthralled with other things during any CF movie, namely ODB himself, then of course those other aspects(ahem) that we tend to discuss. (Elizabeth)I think the tallest boy in the pack might belong to the mysterious aunt and uncle, which would explain a lot of things, wouldn't it? Yes, it would. It might also explain why Edward has no problem with dragging both boys to his study to discipline them after the fight during the Halloween Dance. I don't know, still so many things about this film remain a mystery, and probably always will unless someone can convince CF to join us in the discussion and clue us in. (He probably has no clue himself) Rika and I could practice our coffee wenching. -

(Elizabeth)I think the tallest boy in the pack might belong to the mysterious aunt and uncle, which would explain a lot of things, wouldn't it? (Lindak) Yes, it would. It might also explain why Edward has no problem with dragging both boys to his study to discipline them after the fight during the Halloween Dance. I think you are confusing two different boys. The boy in the Halloween fight is Donald Burns, brother of Cassie (Fraser's dancing partner) and son of Andrew Burns, who works for Kiloran (see the dynamite scene). The other boy (Fraser's older brother) can be heard in the swimming scene addressing Edward as "Father." I'll admit the similarities between the two boys had me confused at first. Couldn't they have found boys who looked more different?

Thank you, Kathy. I stand corrected. I told you I am utterly distracted during CF films. At this point, I don't know who these people are.

(Elizabeth S) The rest of the tomes on the shelf seem to be law books, but the one he pulls down is clearly The Golden Bough, wildly controversial in its day. Thank you for this information! It's fun to have people with all different types of expertise. The one whose title I got part of must have been from a later scene, then. (Kathy)The nice outside stairs scene is at 02:31. I watched the scene one more time just before dinner and I finally realized what you meant. Earlier when you said "coming through the door" I thought of the doors upstairs, later in the scene, and I couldn't see anything particularly noteworthy there. Anyway, I've got the pictures (I have some for you too, Linda) - I just need to convert them and upload them somewhere. (Linda) Yes, it would. It might also explain why Edward has no problem with dragging both boys to his study to discipline them after the fight during the Halloween Dance. The boy he drags in with Fraser is Donald Burns (Andrew's son). This business of the number of children is really puzzling, so I went to the closing credits to see if they would help at all. There are several character names (first names only) listed all together, so these might be the kids. (By the way, just for context, there's also a "Baby Fraser" listed later on.) Here are the names in order: * Elspeth * Rollo (and later in the credits there's a "young Rollo", so maybe he's the older brother.) * Finlay (there's no "young Finlay" or "Baby Finlay" listed in the credits. So I bet he's younger than Fraser - probably the youngest brother.) * Brenda (Later in the credits there's a "baby Brenda", who was probably the other one napping in the nursery at the beginning of the movie.) * Meg (Later it mentions a "young Meg," so she'd have to be older than Brenda but younger than Elspeth (as there is no "young Elspeth" in the credits). Either Brenda or Meg must be the red-haired girl who took part in the fishing lesson. So maybe there were six children - three boys and three girls. Or maybe some of the kids belong to someone else. In the book Denis Forman had two sisters and three brothers, I believe.

I counted eleven kids of various ages standing at the fence when the Emperor of the Air makes his first appearance. I got the idea that some of them definitely belong to someone else, too, but I'm not sure where that came from. ITA, all very confusing. Thanks Rika; I'm not an expert by any means, just blessed/burdened with a weird and wide-ranging store of largely impractical interests. :) The Golden Bough would have been heretical indeed to someone of Edward's 'manly' religious orientation. It's online at Project Gutenberg if anyone's interested. Was any reference made to Forman's reading material in the biography?

(Rika)Second, I found it odd that when Morris and Heloise arrived for the bonspiel, and Heloise was running up the stairs shouting for Fraser ("my favorite nephew"), he seemed to run away from her as fast as he could. All I could think was that his father's lecture about avoiding temptations of the flesh at all costs was in his mind, since it happened a very short time after their conversation in Edward's study. Or am I missing something? Hmmm, after his father's "enlightening" talk, Fraser may be confused about a lot of things. He is aware of tension between his parents, he knows that his mother was upset at finding the necklace. Perhaps Fraser sees Heloise as trouble in some unspecificied way. Calling for Mumsie may be a way of seeking comfort. Or maybe he's aware of more than I thought and he wants Mumsie to come downstairs so that Edward and Heloise won't have time to be alone together? I hadn't thought about this scene until you raised this point, Rika. But when you watch Fraser run up the stairs (I don't think it's worth slo-mo, ladies), he isn't shouting because he's thrilled that the guests have arrived, which is what you might expect from a child. Fraser is such a complicated child. I still can't believe that boy was not a trained actor.

(Rika) Rollo (and later in the credits there's a "young Rollo", so maybe he's the older brother.) Great minds, etc. I did the credit thing, too, and came to the same conclusion, because he's listed right before Finlay, and Finlay is definitely the younger brother (Morris tells Finlay to hold his hat, in the scene where he tells the three boys about his engagement). Meg (Later it mentions a "young Meg," so she'd have to be older than Brenda but younger than Elspeth (as there is no "young Elspeth" in the credits). Either Brenda or Meg must be the red-haired girl who took part in the fishing lesson. Surely the red-haired girl must be Meg, since Brenda was younger than Fraser. Of course, girls often mature faster than boys, so I guess she could be younger and still be taller. (Rika) Second, I found it odd that when Morris and Heloise arrived for the bonspiel, and Heloise was running up the stairs shouting for Fraser ("my favorite nephew"), he seemed to run away from her as fast as he could. All I could think was that his father's lecture about avoiding temptations of the flesh at all costs was in his mind, since it happened a very short time after their conversation in Edward's study (Kate F) I hadn't thought about this scene until you raised this point, Rika. But when you watch Fraser run up the stairs (I don't think it's worth slo-mo, ladies), he isn't shouting because he's thrilled that the guests have arrived, which is what you might expect from a child. Fraser is such a complicated child. Another perplexing scene! We would have expected Fraser to be excited to see Heloise, and yet he runs away. Every time I've watched MLSF, I've wondered about this, but until now I hadn't allowed myself to really think about it. I just rewatched this scene three times, and I still don't know. Both of you bring up good points. Certainly, the motivation for Fraser's action is not made clear. (Kate F) I still can't believe that boy was not a trained actor. Robert Norman was absolutely amazing!

(Rika) ... a hypothetical question. Suppose that ODB had been unavailable to play Edward Pettigrew for some reason (preferably a lead role in a high-profile drama with Oscar written all over it that actually got PROMOTED by its studio.... hey, a girl can dream). I'm having a hard time thinking of alternatives for the role due to the range of situations and emotions it demands. Who could you imagine in the role besides CF? It's much easier to think of who would not have been a good Edward. Certainly not Rupie! ;-) I don't think Russell C. Not Jeremy N, either, much as I love him. How about Kenneth B? After watching this thing 15 or 16 times, I can't really imagine anyone other than ODB. Does anyone find it strange that Morris would comment (to Suzi) about Billy's name (Her name's Lillian, but we call her Billy) and not mention Hector's name?! (Karen) I think he looks marvelous and highly droolworthy in a number of outfits, especially when his jacket is off and he's wearing a vest (flying the kite, eating the asbestos) Absolutely! How about the scene on the stairs, with Edward and Heloise, when he asks her if she's happy? He's gorgeous (and so slim) in that vest!

(Kathy) It's much easier to think of who would not have been a good Edward. I had the same reaction. I think it's a much more difficult role than it seems on the surface because Edward's personality is so complex and has so many contradictory elements. I can think of people who could have played one scene or another, but the whole of it is pretty daunting. And now, in answer to your request of yesterday, Kathy. Here are two pictures from the earliest part of Edward's mad dash to rescue Fraser. Kathy compared one aspect of this shot to the P&P2 wet-shirt scenes - and it certainly is interesting what the lighting does to this shirt. As Kathy said, we get some pretty clear evidence on the stocky-or-svelte debate. The second image is badly out of focus, but it illustrates the basic point rather well all the same:

(Kathy) I was able to see that CF's clothes were very lightweight...it's easy to see that he is in no way "pudgy" as he has been accused of being. Perhaps it is that "layering" business that he alluded to on the Jeffrey Lyons interview that made him appear so, but his white tour guide jacket does IMO make him look pudgy and that was one in the official press pack. Not very flattering: Then, if you see his wedding pics (directly after filming), he looked a little too "filled-out." But each of us has our preference. I happen to like his lean and hunger look now. :) (Pam) I brought this up several times too, but no one seems to want to discuss it. I thought an explanation was lost in the editing, too. They obviously seem close though. Like everyone, I guess we'll never know their relationship with any certainty due to the editing. My only hope is that one day, out of the blue, someone will contact me and give me the answer. It's been known to happen. ;-) (Rika) I'm noting that the more serious portion of our discussion seems to be winding down Hard to imagine that we've said everything there is to say in a week's time, when a number of our film discussions have gone on for a month. I'm going to try to tackle a recap of what topics have been covered later today. Might be next to impossible but I'll give it a go. I also have a running list of "unanswered items" and will check that over. (Rika) This business of the number of children is really puzzling, so I went to the closing credits to see if they would help at all. There are several character names (first names only) listed all together, so these might be the kids. Very good assumption. Also, there are some kids that have last names (like the two Burns kids) that need to be omitted, named Debs and Ruth Haig. They come right after Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice in the credits and there is a Young Debs Haig near the very end. I wonder if Haig might be Aunt and Uncle's last name, which would then make Eunice a sister of Moira and Morris. Need to check if Crawford and Eunice are in the scene when Fraser does his "bad thing." * Finlay (there's no "young Finlay" or "Baby Finlay" listed in the credits. So I bet he's younger than Fraser - probably the youngest brother.) Oh yes, Morris calls him by name when their having some fun about "slanking" on the way back from church. Hmmm, another place to look, the church pews! (Kate) Perhaps Fraser sees Heloise as trouble in some unspecificied way. Calling for Mumsie may be a way of seeking comfort. (Kathy) We would have expected Fraser to be excited to see Heloise Maybe too excited?? I agree with everyone that it is a very odd reaction from Fraser, after Heloise had sent him the jazz record. And, while Fraser probably wouldn't heed any of Edward's warnings about the French lacking moral fiber, he might be worried that his pubescent body could react in another, altogether more embarrassing way if he sees Heloise. We already know what his dreams have produced. ;-) (Kathy) Does anyone find it strange that Morris would comment (to Suzi) about Billy's name (Her name's Lillian, but we call her Billy) and not mention Hector's name?! Maybe he thought it would save everyone some grief in dealing with Lillian. She could, in turn, tell the rest of the staff of the proper way to address Mister Billie. Speaking of staff, is it not odd that Fraser hangs around them so much in the kitchen and is waiting on them? Unless of course, this is something all the children had to do, teaching them some moral value. Have to check book. Maybe there's a hint. Interesting pics, Rika, which bear even further scrutiny... ;-)

(Karen)which would then make Eunice a sister of Moira and Morris I thought about this too, but they/Eunice seem so far removed from those scenes which deal with the estate-how it will be left, the running of, Edwards experiments which are causing damage, etc. I even thought that maybe the connection was on Gamma's side-nephew/niece. They seem to be too young to be her sister or brother. But, then again Morris's age doesn't seem to fit either.

Oh, BTW, Thank you Rika, for the captures. You are a photo wench as well. And, Karen I happen to love the above picture in the white jacket. I, too, like his hungry,lean look of late---But as you know I'll take him lean or pudgy;-) After all, I liked him in his fur-trimmed hood black jacket too;-)))))!

(Karen) Speaking of staff, is it not odd that Fraser hangs around them so much in the kitchen and is waiting on them? Unless of course, this is something all the children had to do, teaching them some moral value. Have to check book. Maybe there's a hint. The book does talk about the kids' close relationship with the staff. It might be shown as even closer in the movie.... I don't have the book handy or I'd pull out a quote. Nice picture, Karen. I think you're right about the layers. Haven't people also found that his face can look thinner or more filled out depending on camera angle, clothing, and even hairstyle? Here's another bit of evidence regarding the "thin or not" question: Granted, he's stretching, but he looks like if you stood him behind a tree he'd vanish!

(Karen)Need to check if Crawford and Eunice are in the scene when Fraser does his "bad thing." Eunice is holding Moira around her waist as Moira screams Fraser's name, as they are all watching Fraser crawling on the roof. I think Eunice and Crawford do look older and that one of them might be a sibling of Gamma's which would explain the fact that they live there and that Crawford was upset when Gamma fell through the ice (maybe he's her borther). Do we ever hear Gamma's maiden name as Haig? Finlay (there's no "young Finlay" or "Baby Finlay" listed in the credits. So I bet he's younger than Fraser - probably the youngest brother.) Oh yes, Morris calls him by name when their having some fun about "slanking" on the way back from church. Hmmm, another place to look, the church pews! Finlay is the youngest brother, and when Fraser does his very bad thing, I think Moira is pregnant with him. Her waist is wider (and she is barefoot in that scene). That's why I think there is no "young Finlay." Thanks, Rika and Karen, for all the new pics and reasons to watch for them ;-). Also I know we talked before about Edward's coontribution to WWI with the moss, but something gives me the idea that he may have also invented the way young Brenda's crib rocks by itself and the interestingly intricate intercom that Gamma talks to the head cook with when she compliments her on the dinner. And, of course, those are just contibutions to the family and not society at large ;-). But he certainly loves being helpful around the house with his inventions. I also like the way Robbie Norman's name happens to rhyme with Forman, and it's also interesting that the man who wrote 'The Golden Bough' is named Frazer! Must be how they (the film people) decided on the name, Fraser!

Here's a list (please don't consider this all-inclusive) of topics we've either touched upon or beaten to death: ;-) Topic Recap 1. Kilts and tartans: all the secrets 2. Why Edward gets Kiloran 3. The Edward-Morris rivalry: issues of class, superiority, and jealousy 4. Sphagnum moss: its contribution to the economy of Scotland 5. Why Heloise married Morris 6. Gamma's secrets, or how it is possible to have a son one's own age 7. How to run with a towel 8. The Mossloft Motel, or did Edward really win that bet? A scientific analysis of the amount and placement of moss on Edward's person 9. The Hairy Man and The Emperor of the Air: Why? 10. Do a few pounds equal pudgy? 11. MLSF: a coming of age film for two children 12. How much did Moira know and when did she know it? 13. Was Heloise a flirt? Did she have any "moral fiber" 14. How many children did Moira have and how much did that contribute to her appearance? 15. Edward's character: in-depth analysis 16. How educational were Grandpa M's books? 17. Who did Morris and Heloise think they were, telling a kid not to listen to his father? 18. Was Edward infatuated by Heloise or did he just want to get at Morris? 19. Authenticity of accents 20. More Gamma's secrets: teeth and undergarments 21. A case for Moira being "trailer trash," or would a well-bred wife accuse her husband of philandering in front of the kiddies and neighbors? 22. Stairs (no further explanation required) 23. How are Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice related? 24. Why was Edward so amazed by the sight of an airplane? 25. Magna: new and subtle meanings 26. Different endings 27. How much did Fraser know about his father and Heloise before mother blurted it out? 28. Difficulties with the film's POV 29. Would you have learned anything from Edward's sex talk with Fraser? 30. Did Heloise tell Morris about Lust in the Loft? Was she really upset over it? And, if so, why? 31. The music 32. How did being a geek affect Edward's development and interpersonal relations? 33. Everything you ever wanted to know about being a lothario 34. The blue suit, or clothing makes the man 35. Sorting out all the children; who is a Pettigrew and who is not 36. What book was Fraser reading and where can I get it? 37. Why does Fraser flee from Heloise? 38. The inventions of Edward Pettigrew (beginning)

(Karen)Speaking of staff, is it not odd that Fraser hangs around them so much in the kitchen and is waiting on them? Unless of course, this is something all the children had to do, teaching them some moral value. Have to check book. Maybe there's a hint. I wonder if it's a form of being friendly, almost a game they play. They take care of him upstairs, he goes downstairs to return the favor? Plus, he may have learned that his parents will discourage any attempt to gossip about family, but the servants will love it. The other kids don't seem to go into the servants' area, so maybe this is one of Fraser's ways of trying to be different, maybe even to seek extra attention (attention that his sibs don't get)?

Great list, Karen! My personal faves: 6. Gamma's secrets, or how it is possible to have a son one's own age [perhaps she was born pregnant, like a Star Trek tribble?] 12. How much did Moira know and when did she know it? [and did Edward ever issue a non-denial denial?] 29. Would you have learned anything from Edward's sex talk with Fraser? [no, but I know a lot more about volcanoes now]

Hilarious list, boss.Though the film didn't expect them to be so funny. My fave: 6. Same as Kate: How could Gamma have son one's own age. Absurd. 9.The Hairy Man and Emperor of the air. why? And who cares. You missed one that has bothered me. Why was Heloise all over Fraser all the time. Couldn't keep her hands off him.Me thinks a little "pervy". How could Hugh Hudson with an Oscar under his belt for Chariots of Fire make such a disjointed film. Still it's one of my favorites, and I hope the discussion continues.

Karen, what a thorough comprehensive list! Very well done! (Karen)18. Was Edward infatuated by Heloise or did he just want to get at Morris? I like the way you ask the question in this way. It brings me back to the theory, that Edward is really a child and as Heloise says at the end of that scene, "Edward, you're acting like a child." Maybe that's the explanation of the loft scenes right there in that quote. Edward was like a child and he saw something that someone else had and he wanted to play with it himself (just like kids on a playground or in Nursery school). Usually what happens after someone grabs a toy from another is that they are told it is not theirs and to play with their own (unless of course by some chance they are told they can have a turn later ;-), not the case here). Heloise is like the teacher in this analogy, and she admonishes Edward about trying to have her his way (seems like he tried hard because of yelling and screams). But Heloise gets away because let's face it, Edward was childish, but he wouldn't physically hurt to get what he wanted so he would probably relent. Then like a child he hasn't learned to feel remorse yet (with Morris in the library), and he brags later on (at bonspiel) about having a girl he didn't have (teenage boys do this all the time). But it's really that he's used to getting his way and what he wants. Isn't it revealing too that Fraser knows when he's done a very bad thing (by age 10) and Edward does not. So I don't think he was really infatuated with Heloise, he just wanted Morris's toy and kept trying even though he kept being told to stop trying by Heloise. It wasn't until Moira gave him an ultimatum that he finally thought about it and realized he'd been a child. So maybe that's what happened (struggle in the loft) and what didn't happen (consummation).

(Karen) Perhaps it is that "layering" business that he alluded to... Every single pair of trousers is double-pleated, IIRC. (There's a very good reason why men of ample proportions generally avoid these.) Shirts and jackets weren't cut as close to the body then as they were later, or in more formal clothing. Lots of vests and sweater vests under the jackets, too. I think he looks just right in these clothes. FWIW, there's a huge sewing anomaly in the measuring scene; is Moira attempting to make up a kilt on a tailor's dummy? Wouldn't work at all; you'd have to baste it into its pleated form first, then adjusted to fit the individual. The list is a hoot! And there are many things left to cover.

(Karen) Maybe he thought it would save everyone some grief in dealing with Lillian. She could, in turn, tell the rest of the staff of the proper way to address Mister Billie. Yes, but her girlfriend was Hector, and I've known girls named Billie, but never a female Hector. Although, of course, Hector was wearing a dress and Billie wasn't. (Lora) But Heloise gets away because let's face it, Edward was childish, but he wouldn't physically hurt to get what he wanted so he would probably relent. Then like a child he hasn't learned to feel remorse yet (with Morris in the library), and he brags later on (at bonspiel) about having a girl he didn't have (teenage boys do this all the time) Excellent point! I'd never thought about Edward as acting like a teenager before, but it makes sense. (Lora) So I don't think he was really infatuated with Heloise Really? I think he thought he was in love with her. Consider the expression on his face when she kisses him on the cheek, the way he agonizes in the study after he's read her note dismissing him as a friend, and more agonizing when he has to make his final decision to stay with Moira. (Aren't CF and angst a match made in heaven?!) (Karen)Speaking of staff, is it not odd that Fraser hangs around them so much in the kitchen and is waiting on them? Unless of course, this is something all the children had to do, teaching them some moral value. Have to check book. Maybe there's a hint. (Kate F) I wonder if it's a form of being friendly, almost a game they play. They take care of him upstairs, he goes downstairs to return the favor? Plus, he may have learned that his parents will discourage any attempt to gossip about family, but the servants will love it. The other kids don't seem to go into the servants' area, so maybe this is one of Fraser's ways of trying to be different, maybe even to seek extra attention (attention that his sibs don't get)? I think perhaps Fraser, being precocious, enjoys the company of adults on occasion. And in his dialogues with the servants, it is Fraser who is listened to. Nobody corrects him -- instead they treat him as a higher authority. I did think it strange, though, that he was waiting on them. Great list, Karen! And wonderful comments to the list from Kate F, Evelyn and Lora. Thanks for the pictures, Rika! This is the slimmest "pudgy" man I've ever seen. I just realized that in a post yesterday I referred to Sissie as Suzi. It must have been a brain short. I'm going to go watch again and see what else we can talk about.

(Kathy)Consider the expression on his face when she kisses him on the cheek, the way he agonizes in the study after he's read her note dismissing him as a friend, and more agonizing when he has to make his final decision to stay with Moira. Could it be the expression of someone who thinks he is getting what he's desired? Take the child who wants someone else's toy. Their expression is one of complete desire for it and agony if they don't get it. Then they finally get hold of it and within minutes they've thrown it down for something else. So maybe it's infatuation to a certain extent, but not one that would deepen or amount to anything. What Edward goes through later when he finally grapples with what he's done and his childishness, is perhaps an agonizing learning experience about his life so far and that's the reason for his anguished expressions. He is also lucky that Moira has given him a second chance to do some growing up and to become more adultlike. And you're so right, Kathy, he really does angst so well. Nobody does it better ;-).

Fantastically, funny list, boss. My personal favorites 12. How much did Moira know and when did she know it? I'd say from the moment that little French tart entered the house. 13. Was Heloise a flirt? Did she have any "moral fiber" YES, NO respectively 22. Stairs (no further explanation required) 33. Everything you ever wanted to know about being a lothario. Actually, I like to know a wee bit more! And now, my most favorite: 23. How are Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice related? Who cares. Just who the hell are these people, and why are they there? If there is more to discuss, I would like to expand on #21: A case for Moira being "trailer trash," or would a well-bred wife accuse her husband of philandering in front of the kiddies and neighbors?

I just slapped that together; I'm sure it can be improved upon. But: (Evelyn) You missed one that has bothered me. Why was Heloise all over Fraser all the time. Couldn't keep her hands off him. Me thinks a little "pervy". I had classified this one within #13. Was Heloise a flirt? Did she have any "moral fiber," but you're correct it does deserve its own: 39. Is Heloise afraid of men her own age or just a little pervy?

(Karen)9. The Hairy Man and The Emperor of the Air: Why? I'll take my turn beating a dead horse. :-) Both of these characters really underscore for me the fact a child is telling the story. Especially, the way he has special names for them even though he knows their real names. These characters cause me to look back to my own childhood and see if I have any similiar memories. Growing up sixty years after Fraser, I can remember running like crazy from a man who frequently walked slowly down our country road--like Frazer ran from the Hairy Man. The other thing the Hairy Man does is show us one thing that happened to shell-shocked survivors of WWI. (AMITC shows us two different stories that were in danger of ending this way but didn't.) I also appreciate that inclusion because otherwise I would be tempted to think post-traumatic shock syndrome was a recent phenomenon. The Emporer of the Air also brings back memories of my childhood and the perspective I had then. A man came back to our neck of the woods, after flying in WWII, and set up a small airport just a quarter of a mile from where I grew up. It was always thrilling to hear the planes take off as he flew sight-seers around the area. If we had company, there was always discussion: did they want to take a ride and who would take a ride vs. who wanted to keep their feet on the ground. It was a privilege that we had to grow into and it was a lot of fun to wonder what the world would look like from up there. We all listened intently to anyone who had been in "one of those things" for any clue they could give us about what it was like. Not discussed, so far: how film discussions are like group therapy!!!;-) ;-) (Karen)23. How are Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice related? I don't know how they are related but they are used to forward the plot quite often. At the guilty-Edward dinner, Eunice says, Crawford saw Jesus Christ walking across the loch this morning etc, etc. We later find out it wasn't exactly Jesus walking but the Hairy Man drowning which is when we find out who he was. Then, the big fight is started because Crawford is "going on and on about Jesus". Fraser yells at him because to his concrete way of thinking, Uncle Crawford is telling a lie when he is speaking figuratively to comfort Moira.

7. How to run with a towel Shame there was no chance to discuss the converse. ;-D 24. Why was Edward so amazed by the sight of an airplane? Was there ever a definitive answer that I missed? (Evelyn) You missed one that has bothered me. Why was Heloise all over Fraser all the time. Have to admit I didn't pay attention to that so much the first time , but after subsequent discussion and viewings, I found that very odd and more than a little pervy. 22. Stairs (no further explanation required) Breathin' heavy just thinkin about him...er, them. 29. Would you have learned anything from Edward's sex talk with Fraser? I would've wondered how a guy who seems so utterly clueless ended up with so many kids!

(Rika, quoted by Pam) Bring on the Butts please!!!!! I'm not sure who said this but I don't think I did. Not that my saying it would be at all out of character.... ;-D Apologies Rika. The wording is mine. (Rika) Second, I found it odd that when Morris and Heloise arrived for the bonspiel, and Heloise was running up the stairs shouting for Fraser ("my favorite nephew"), he seemed to run away from her as fast as he could. All I could think was that his father's lecture about avoiding temptations of the flesh at all costs was in his mind, since it happened a very short time after their conversation in Edward's study. Or am I missing something? I watched it again today. He is definitely trying to avoid her when she arrives. He may be realizing he has "growing pain" feelings for her and doesn't know quite how to deal with them. Also, after he told his dad he dreamed of Heloise and heard music for the first time, Edward says, "Oh, God" so Fraser could have picked up on that and felt a bit odd about being too close to her. Possible. I also noticed, maybe watching it so much, that his hostility towards his father seems to dissipate after the fight at the funeral. He seems to be more tolerant of him and explains how his father is trying hard to make his mother happy, which if he detested he wouldn't acknowledge. His "acting-out" at the end of the movie I took as growing pains, not necessarily hostility toward his father. Everyone does things like that as they're "learning the facts of life". Especially young men. If I remember correctly, Aunt Eunice is hugging Moira while Fraser is on the roof. They are there at so many different times of the year I was given the impression that they live there.

(Lora) Could it be the expression of someone who thinks he is getting what he's desired? Take the child who wants someone else's toy........So maybe it's infatuation to a certain extent, but not one that would deepen or amount to anything. I agree that it's infatuation and not anything deeper, and I do think that her status as Morris's fiancee increased her attractiveness to Edward (especially later on). But I think what initially started things in motion was that she was so entirely outside of the limited scope of life at Kiloran. Young and exotic - those are the things Edward mentions to Heloise in the moss factory, and also to Morris afterwards, and I think they explain much of his obsession with her. (Pam) I also noticed, maybe watching it so much, that his hostility towards his father seems to dissipate after the fight at the funeral. He seems to be more tolerant of him and explains how his father is trying hard to make his mother happy, which if he detested he wouldn't acknowledge. Agreed. And that makes sense, because the root of the hostility was their rivalry for Heloise's attention (added to by Fraser's growing awareness of how it was hurting his mother). So when Edward went back to Moira (emotionally speaking), the root cause of the conflict no longer existed. But.... His "acting-out" at the end of the movie I took as growing pains, not necessarily hostility toward his father. Agreed. Even if Heloise is out of the picture, Fraser is still growing up and trying to become his own person, so he still has to break away. And I think Edward understands this at least to some extent, which is why he silently backs away and leaves Fraser as he is instead of insisting that he join the family for church.

We haven't talked about corporal punishment either. I know I said before that Edward wouldn't physically hurt someone (in the loft), but I had forgotten about that scene behind the stained glass after the Halloween dance. That scene made me uncomfortable the first two times I watched it. But I suppose Edward didn't know how to discipline any other way given that he could never fully explain anything to Fraser. 24. Why was Edward so amazed by the sight of an airplane? When the Emperor of the Air first arrived the two older sisters talk about how he is like Daedalus and Icarus who fell from the sky. They then try to figure out which one was the Father and which one was the son (we are confused like this with Edward and Fraser at times) and which one flew too close to the sun (did Edward do so later in the loft, so to speak?). Fraser helps them out, but what struck me about the reference is that Daedalus was an architect who built a Labyrinth and with his son he tried to escape from it after they were imprisoned in it. It's Fraser who wants to go up in the plane and gives his father the idea at the moss factory. Does Edward sometimes feel imprisoned too and have a desire to escape from the confines of Kiloran, for just a little while? He's also been experimenting with flight, but hasn't come close to inventing anything that works, so maybe he's also a little envious of it when he sees the airplane. There must be more to the Daedalus/Icarus reference, but I keep finding myself flying in circles with it ;-/. Anyone else want to try to make sense if it? It also bothered me at first when he went up in the airplane with Moira since there was such a large family depending on them if something were to go wrong. But then I was happy for Moira that she got to have a little adventure in her life for once. Maybe he wanted the opportunity to escape for awhile

Sorry about that last line that I started and forgot that it was still there when I posted. Told you I was going in circles with it ;-).

(Karen) which would then make Eunice a sister of Moira and Morris (Linda) but they/Eunice seem so far removed from those scenes which deal with the estate-how it will be left Watched it again last night and zoomed and panned around for all family scenes, counting children among other things. These people are nearly everywhere, so as we've all finally concluded they do probably live at Kiloran with their children, whichever ones they are in the pack. Strangely I did pick out a few oddities: (1) Cassie Burns is sitting at the kiddie table. She's the daughter of an employee and wouldn't be there. I didn't see another child with a similar blonde bob at other strictly family scenes. (2) You don't see Aunt and Uncle at Gamma's deathbed. Morris is on her right and Moira is on the left. Granted you cannot see everyone at the foot of the bed (even with zoom), but as the people are filing out, you don't see them and Morris does close the door, so I assume everyone is out. If either was one of Gamma's children, wouldn't he/she be at the bedside as prominently as Moira and Morris? BTW, don't you love Edward's little endearment: "It's time to go now, angel." *sigh* As far as Crawford and Eunice sharing in estate management, I think the book answers that question. Adam did not immediately move into Craigielands after his marriage to the Child. He did work for about four years and then Gamma invited him to be the estate's factor. Denis described the division of responsibilities as his grandmother ruling the household and everyone in it, his mother was in charge of the nursery and all small children and his father took care of the lands and estate. However, all the employees still knew that Mrs. Smith had the final word even on that. (Lora) something gives me the idea that he may have also invented the way young Brenda's crib rocks by itself and the interestingly intricate intercom that Gamma talks to the head cook with when she compliments her on the dinner. I'm pretty sure the dining room intercom is mentioned in the book. The self-rocking crib might be too, as most of his inventions were home improvements; he had given up on commercial ventures. (Lora) But Heloise gets away because let's face it, Edward was childish, but he wouldn't physically hurt to get what he wanted so he would probably relent. Then like a child he hasn't learned to feel remorse yet (with Morris in the library), and he brags later on (at bonspiel) about having a girl he didn't have (teenage boys do this all the time). But it's really that he's used to getting his way and what he wants. Isn't it revealing too that Fraser knows when he's done a very bad thing (by age 10) and Edward does not. Very good summary, but I do think he was infatuated with her. (Kathy) I think perhaps Fraser, being precocious, enjoys the company of adults on occasion. And in his dialogues with the servants, it is Fraser who is listened to. Nobody corrects him -- instead they treat him as a higher authority. Another excellent take. Fraser is constantly commenting in his voiceovers that he knows more than his father and others because of his extensive reading. It makes sense that he would enjoy showing "anyone" the breadth of his knowledge. 9. The Hairy Man and The Emperor of the Air: Why? (Caribou) I'll take my turn beating a dead horse. :-) Aw! I completely agree with you about their function within the story. The Hairy Man is fairly adequately dealt with, but not the Emperor, especially his return to Kiloran and his relationship with Elspeth (another pervy attraction IMO). [Warning!! Symbolism ahead!!] Another swan reference: At the bonspiel, Emperor says that Elspeth (who can barely stand up straight on the ice) moves like a swan. So we have a swan in Grandpa M's book on mythology, the cello music and now this. And so swans would symbolize what??? ;-) (Caribou) If we had company, there was always discussion: did they want to take a ride and who would take a ride. So what is your take on the childish Edward's hogging the plane ride, when it was Fraser who initially asked? Instead, Edward shoved him aside (as he would later on several occasions with Heloise), saying he's too young. Poor little Fraser only gets to wear the pilot's helmet, while Edward gets to soar. (Pam) his hostility towards his father seems to dissipate after the fight at the funeral. He seems to be more tolerant of him and explains how his father is trying hard to make his mother happy, which if he detested he wouldn't acknowledge. Maybe he is more tolerant, but I think it is because the father-son separation has occurred and his father is in the doghouse anyway. Fraser doesn't have to worry about being criticized by his father as the father is more inwardly focused at this time. (Rika) But I think what initially started things in motion was that she was so entirely outside of the limited scope of life at Kiloran. Young and exotic - those are the things Edward mentions to Heloise in the moss factory, and also to Morris afterwards, and I think they explain much of his obsession with her. Yes, he's been on Kiloran for a long time (how old is Elspeth?). Young and exotic would be a draw.

How funny that we both touched on the airplane ride at the same time, while I was offline composing.

About swans: - In Greek mythology Zeus took the form of a swan to seduce Leda. The swan has erotic associations as an emblem of Aphrodite/Venus. The chariot of Venus can be drawn by swans. [More about Leda and the swan: http://www.loggia.com/myth/leda.html] - One of the best-known children's tales, The Ugly Duckling, tells of an little "duckling" who doesn't look lilke the others, who are all very surprised when he grows up to become that most elegant of birds, the swan. On one level, this fable illustrates the deceptive nature of first appearances and teaches us that true beauty grows from within. Swan, in teaching us that we all have inner grace and beauty, teaches self-esteem. - Swan symbolizes grace and beauty on many levels. It is associated with love, music, and poetry. In Roman mythology Swan was sacred to Venus, the goddess of love. In Greek tradition, this bird was often pictured singing to a lyre.

(Karen) Cassie Burns is sitting at the kiddie table. She's the daughter of an employee and wouldn't be there. I didn't see another child with a similar blonde bob at other strictly family scenes. I was rewatching last night, looking for Crawford and Eunice, and children (to try to find answers to those nagging questions). I noticed that in the church scene, C&E are sitting on the end of the pew in front of Fraser. Next to them are three girls. There was also a girl with short blond hair in the semi-submersible vulcanized pantaloons scene, who at first glance I thought was Cassie. However, she wasn't. Perhaps she belongs to C&E, and is the one sitting at the kiddie table. At first I thought it was Cassie, and had the same reaction you did. Even now, I'm not absolutely positive it wasn't Cassie. I agree that Cassie definitely would not belong at Kiloran for a formal dinner. (Again, why this tendency to cast people who looked so similar?) Another swan reference in the scene in which Fraser, Finlay and Brenda doing artwork or schoolwork (never have been sure) at a table, and Fraser asks Gamma if Jesus can really turn people into animals. Then Fraser says he would like to be a swan or a bull. Wonder why. ;-) (It just occurred to me how ironic it was, considering her demise, that Gamma replied she'd always wanted to be a polar bear.) Karen, thanks for the swan info. Very informative.

(Kathy) Then Fraser says he would like to be a swan or a bull. Wonder why. ;-) True, he has just seen the bull in action, but Zeus also took that form to carry off the Phoenician princess Europa to Crete; she had two sons. (Kathy) (It just occurred to me how ironic it was, considering her demise, that Gamma replied she'd always wanted to be a polar bear.) Groan! ;-)

(Lora)We haven't talked about corporal punishment either. I know I said before that Edward wouldn't physically hurt someone (in the loft), but I had forgotten about that scene behind the stained glass after the Halloween dance. That scene made me uncomfortable the first two times I watched it. The more I watch that scene, I'm convinced he doesn't hit them at all. Yes, they come out rubbing their behinds, but they are laughing as well. As they leave, Edward says something like go on and behave yourselves or next time I'll take my cane to both of you. Go up and apologize to Mrs. Mc. (Karen)Watched it again last night and zoomed and panned around for all family scenes, counting children among other things.These people are nearly everywhere... I didn't mean that they weren't physically around. I never heard any discussion from them or to them concerning the inheritance of the estate-which is a constant conversation topic among Edward/Morris/Gamma. If one or the other of them was also a sibbling wouldn't they be part of the fray as well? (Karen)don't you love Edward's little endearment: "It's time to go now, angel." *sigh* I get a chill everytime I watch/hear those words. I love it. The first time I watched the film, I thought at that point Edward had already come to his senses about Moira. (Maybe he has by this time-except for his-I won the bet months ago statement)Especially since he was so tender and gentle with her, I didn't expect the post funeral scene between Edward and Moira.

(Lora)We haven't talked about corporal punishment either. (lindak)The more I watch that scene, I'm convinced he doesn't hit them at all. Ah, remember, corporal punishment was generally thought of in a different light than we think of it today. It was a character builder and a necessary means to discipline children for the majority of people. Back then, were someone to say they had to take a belt to their child, it would not be thought of twice, whereas today, were someone to do it, only a dense fool would mention it to others. But, I agree with Linda and might have to pull my video out today. I recall the boys were a little too chipper afterwards, and if Edward did indeed say that, perhaps it was a show of sorts. Did you get the impression that the boys were putting on some sort of show of their own at some point? Another point, by today's standards, who among us would even consider disciplining someone else child, especially in such a fashion???

(Karen) but not the Emperor, especially his return to Kiloran and his relationship with Elspeth (another pervy attraction IMO). At least she was of a somewhat reasonable age. Certainly at least 16, maybe 18? (Lisa) Ah, remember, corporal punishment was generally thought of in a different light than we think of it today. That's what I think too. And it was probably just a hand-smack on the rear for each - he specifically points out that he didn't use a cane. Heck, a spanking of that sort wasn't necessarily viewed in a bad light when I was growing up either, and that's a lot more recent than the setting of this movie. Another point, by today's standards, who among us would even consider disciplining someone else child, especially in such a fashion??? How true. But as we've been discussing, Donald and Cassie are around a fair amount, so they may be seen as surrogate Pettigrews in a way. Also, their status as children of one of Edward's employees may give him an authority over them that he wouldn't have over a neighbor's child.

(Karen) True, he has just seen the bull in action, but Zeus also took that form to carry off the Phoenician princess Europa to Crete; she had two sons. Well, actually I was thinking about the Greek mythology book Fraser had been reading in the secret library, with the illustrations involving swans and bulls -- "another of a lady named Pacify, who had a pet bull she loved hugely." That line just cracks me up! Somehow the bulling scene had slipped my mind. I didn't realize that about Zeus. I think it's time to peruse my mythology book again. 24. Why was Edward so amazed by the sight of an airplane? I thought the look on his face was more of aggravation. Something like, "here comes this guy in a real airplane, ruining my big moment." Edward's experiments, with the exception of venting his chimney under the lawn, seem to do with making improvements (or trying to improve upon) already existing technology. I thought the model airplane was probably meant to be a test of a new design. Likewise, the strange car with the propeller behind it. I noticed last night for the first time (odd, after so many viewings). At the Halloween party, why are the other children made to take their shoes off as the enter the house (undoubtedly to save the floor), yet in the dancing scene, Fraser and Cassie have shoes on?

Well, he certainly didn't have a belt handy, that's for sure. ;-) And since we didn't hear him say, "drop 'em," it wasn't a harsh spanking IMO. Only that he spanked Donald struck me as strange, but as Rika points out the Burns kids were part of the household. No one would think twice about it in those times.

24. Why was Edward so amazed by the sight of an airplane? (Kathy) I thought the look on his face was more of aggravation. Something like, "here comes this guy in a real airplane, ruining my big moment." My burning question still is why did he think it would be such a big moment? Was his invention designed to be a special type of plane or just a flying machine. As I think I said before, why would he be trying to invent something that obviously has been around for some time as they don't crop up overnight. Are they cut off from news of the outside world? Doesn't Edward keep up somehow with other scientific information? A scientist/inventor is by nature very inquisitive.

(Karen) And since we didn't hear him say, "drop 'em," it wasn't a harsh spanking IMO. LOL Karen, weren't the boys also wearing their kilts? It would have to be "Raise 'em lads".

(Dorine) My burning question still is why did he think it would be such a big moment? Was his invention designed to be a special type of plane or just a flying machine. As I think I said before, why would he be trying to invent something that obviously has been around for some time as they don't crop up overnight. Are they cut off from news of the outside world? Doesn't Edward keep up somehow with other scientific information? A scientist/inventor is by nature very inquisitive. I think I may have the answer from the book. Adam had lots of ideas to improve upon existing inventions or so he thought. He did not research the scientific basis for his schemes, which is why they mainly amounted to nothing. Very likely, there was something within that model that was his own invention. In fact, Adam's inventions are a major source of Denis' disillusionment. I also noted an unhealthy amount of snobbery in Denis' views and his own sense of superiority over his father's intellect. (Caribou, this might interest you as well from previous comments).I believe that I genuinely wanted to love and respect my father. All around me there were people who appeared to do so but to me he always remained a figure of fun and a source of aggravation.He goes on to describe his father's various experiments to improve the sound amplification of the wireless, which consisted of enlarging the horn to various sizes:"But my father was not satisfied and decided to devise his own improved style of horn. Unfortunately for him he had never studied the theory of sound as it is affected by the shape of the horn. Nor had he ever heard, I think, of the exponential curse nor of the logorithmic curve, nor did he apply to his horn experiment any deduction from observing the bell of a fren h horn or any other wind instrument."Many other things about his father embarrassed him, including when he affected a strong Doris accent to speak with the estate workers. Denis knew his father meant well, but was very embarrassed, especially as he himself could do it flawlessly. He termed his father's "music hall Scots," as his normal speaking voice was "very English, almost Anglican" and it upset Denis aesthetically.

(Lisa) weren't the boys also wearing their kilts? It would have to be "Raise 'em lads". Ooops, I stand corrected. We have flesh against flesh. It would hurt.

(Karen) Many other things about his father embarrassed him, including when he affected a strong Doris accent to speak with the estate workers. Like the dynamite scene, where he's showing off in front of Heloise? Another thing that's been bothering me: When Fraser goes to Moira's room with the RCA Victor catalog Heloise sent him, after he leaves to get the firelighters, Moira notices the scent of the catalog and then picks up the wrapper and smells it. Why? Doesn't she already know it came from Heloise? What is she comparing it to? Edward still has his letter with him, so it's not as if she has found evidence of something. I really don't understand the reason for this scene.

When he's showing her around his moss operation. No dynamite in that one. But there's an ooops again. It should read Doric accent, not Doris, who must be one of the children. ;-)

You're absolutely right! Must remember to actually think about what I'm typing. ;-)

(Lori) We haven't talked about corporal punishment either. I know I said before that Edward wouldn't physically hurt someone (in the loft), but I had forgotten about that scene behind the stained glass after the Halloween dance. That scene made me uncomfortable the first two times I watched it. But I suppose Edward didn't know how to discipline any other way given that he could never fully explain anything to Fraser. Don't forget we're watching 1920. In those days there was nothing wrong in spanking or hitting a child for misbehaving. It was common practice. It's only been in the last 15 years or so physical punishment has been frowned upon. I can still remember a few good spankings I received, and the reasons, justified, for them. I doubt many young people today can remember what and if they were punished for and the reasoning behind it. More's the pitty. (Kathy) Then Fraser says he would like to be a swan or a bull. Wonder why. ;-)True, he has just seen the bull in action, but Zeus also took that form to carry off the Phoenician princess Europa to Crete; she had two sons. I think there could be an even simpler reason. Look at Grandpas porn. There are two Lovely (?) ladies each posing with a swan and a bull. (Freddie) ...Did you get the impression that the boys were putting on some sort of show of their own at some point? To be honest, considering Fraser's latest pasttime and his enthusiasm for it, I don't doubt that he touched the girls behind, out of curiosity of course. The girl could have said something so the brother had to react. They both found the whole thing very funny, remained good friends, and got quite a kick out of Edward too. Cassie didn't seem overly upset either. They were all growing up in leaps and bounds. Good stuff, very interesting thoughts. Thanks ladies.

closing tag

(Kathy)What is she comparing it to? Edward still has his letter with him, so it's not as if she has found evidence of something. I really don't understand the reason for this scene I don't think it was to compare. I think she knew the catalogue was from Heloise, but the scent probably brought back memories of Heloise-and allowed her to remember the unpleasant and uncomfortable times. She seems to have a wistful, far-off look as she brings it away from her face. Maybe she also realizes the scent lingering on Edward at some other time, and now realizes he may have had his hands on her after all.

(Kathy) "another of a lady named Pacify, who had a pet bull she loved hugely." That line just cracks me up! I love it too...and it's really Pasiphae, another taurine reference. The daughter of Helios and Perse, and wife of King Minos. She was the mother of Glaucus, Andogeus, Phaedra, and Ariadne. When Minos had the misfortune of insulting Poseidon, the god kindled a passionate love in Pasiphae for a bull. She had Daedalus design a construction so that she could mate with the bull, and thus she became the mother of the Minotaur.

(lindak) Maybe she also realizes the scent lingering on Edward at some other time, and now realizes he may have had his hands on her after all. That's about the best thing I could come up with, too. It seems to be another one of those scenes that either should have explained more, or shouldn't have been there at all. As it stands now, it just seems to add to the confusion.

(Elizabeth S) When Minos had the misfortune of insulting Poseidon, the god kindled a passionate love in Pasiphae for a bull. She had Daedalus design a construction so that she could mate with the bull, and thus she became the mother of the Minotaur. What kind of construction? All these mythological references make me desperate to find the box that holds my mythology books! And another Daedalus connection, too! And thanks for the correction on the spelling. :-)

A false bull, I believe. Sounds like a lotta bull to me! Wasn't your mistake, it was Fraser's, and added enormously to the joke IMO.

Sorry, but I can't resist. So should Topic #40 be: Mythology and assorted bullshit? ;-)

Karen, thank you for the clarification of my burning question. That makes more sense to me.

(Linda)I don't think it was to compare. I think she knew the catalogue was from Heloise, but the scent probably brought back memories of Heloise... Are we sure the catalog was from Heloise? I didn't think it was. My assumption was that the scent of Edward's letter from Heloise rubbed off on other pieces of mail in the day's bundle (such as the catalog). Moira, as suspicious as she already was, may have reached the same conclusion. (Karen) I also noted an unhealthy amount of snobbery in Denis' views and his own sense of superiority over his father's intellect. You've hit on something that bothered me about the book (or at least, the 50% of it I've read so far). He seemed rather disapproving of just about every adult he grew up with. He's got a lot of critical things to say about his mother, and he's even annoyed at Gamma a lot of the time. He talks about his list of ten people he wouldn't want to die, updated daily. His parents are never on the list, and Gamma only some of the time. He whines about latter-day children had it so much better in terms of family relationships. Sorry, but I felt not a shred of sympathy for him.

(Rika) Sorry, but I felt not a shred of sympathy for him. Now, aren't you glad they changed the story? That whole book (Son of Adam)is a big bore as is Sir Denis Forman. Don't bother with his second book...it's worse.

(Kathy) Even now, I'm not absolutely positive it wasn't Cassie. But you've made a far better case for it not being her. I congratulate your eyesight, DVD pan-and-zoom acumen, and persistence on this matter of doctrinal import. ;-) (Lisa) I recall the boys were a little too chipper afterwards, and if Edward did indeed say that, perhaps it was a show of sorts. Denis mentions getting beatings several times. He liked being thought of as a bad boy and intentionally provoked many people. "To be beaten by my father was something to boast about. One could show the marks and cheekily imitate his sudden flurry as he went into action." However, I don't think this is how they portrayed Fraser in the film because that would've made him unsympathetic. (Kathy) At the Halloween party, why are the other children made to take their shoes off as the enter the house (undoubtedly to save the floor), yet in the dancing scene, Fraser and Cassie have shoes on? Only a supposition on my part, but the family held two parties a year for tenants' children, one was Halloween. Denis described them as uncomfortable events, where the boys wore "damp-smelling tweed jackets and shorts and the girls the cheapest frocks...." My guess is they didn't have party shoes either. (Linda)I don't think it was to compare. I think she knew the catalogue was from Heloise, but the scent probably brought back memories of Heloise... (Rika) Are we sure the catalog was from Heloise? I didn't think it was. We can't be sure, but it seems likely that she would continue to support Fraser's rebellious interest in jazz from afar. My take is that Moira recognized the scent (which must have been very strong given how the items were far from people's noses) and knew not only who had sent it but who was continuing to interfere with her family. (Rika) [Denis] seemed rather disapproving of just about every adult he grew up with...Sorry, but I felt not a shred of sympathy for him. I know what you mean. He had no respect for any of the adults at the main house but felt more at home with the farm workers and the main gamekeeper because he respected their way of life. They knew everything about their work, not like his father who dabbled in many things but was an expert in none. He commented specifically on the gamekeeper as being an expert in everything concerning the out of doors, even volcanoes. He's the prototype for Andrew Burns. I'm skimming through the book again, as I had read it long ago on library loan. When we were in London the last time, I found a used copy for a pound and had to buy it. There are far more little incidents and details from the book that were incorporated in the film in some way. But the greatest find has to do with our mystery couple. ;-) As other characters have their prototypes, so do Uncle Crawford and Aunt Eunice, who are based on Denis' Uncle Neil and Aunt May. Neil was one of Flora's brothers and closest to her in age. He was also a vicar in London, so he didn't live with them but did visit. While Crawford doesn't appear to have the same personality traits, Denis does tell the story about seeing Jesus on the lawn.

(Rika) He talks about his list of ten people he wouldn't want to die, updated daily. His parents are never on the list, and Gamma only some of the time. He whines about latter-day children had it so much better in terms of family relationships. I'm glad that wasn't in the movie. It would have ruined Fraser for me who I love very much. What a nasty thing to do. This man had alot of issues from early childhood. I'm not blaming the parents for them either, unless the book says otherwise. Give me Edward anytime, if that's how Fraser is. I'd rather deal with his ego.

Yes, Evelyn, I'm very glad they changed the story and some of the characters! Forman's self-pity and his disdain for almost everyone in his family is hard to take. Karen, thanks for the Uncle Neil/Aunt May information! That must be it. I remembered that Forman said that various family members lived at the estate at different times, but I couldn't recall any details. (Karen) There are far more little incidents and details from the book that were incorporated in the film in some way. It would be fun to identify as many as possible. I'm forgetting some that I had noticed - I may have to go check again. Here are some incidents that I remember having a basis in the book - 1. Fraser's climb on the roof 2. The visit from the tailor, calling out the measurements 3. The cold plunge in the loch (but in the book Adam wore only a towel) 4. Mrs. Henderson being a bad cook 5. Edward and Fraser competing for Heloise's attention (though in the book it's a general statement about competing for attention from "female guests") 6. Use of dog language 7. Moira's audition with Blanche Marchesi 8. Afternoon slanks 9. Edward's love for Beethoven and the Bible 10. Fraser using a mirror to see if Gamma was breathing I know there's lots more. Kathy, I have a question based on your in-depth study of the Stairmaster in the first scene of the movie. This question occurred to me when I read in Forman's book that Adam didn't wear any underwear in the summertime. So my question is, boxers, briefs, or au naturel? I have an opinion but I bow to your greater expertise.

(Linda)I don't think it was to compare. I think she knew the catalogue was from Heloise, but the scent probably brought back memories of Heloise... (Rika) Are we sure the catalog was from Heloise? I didn't think it was. (Karen) We can't be sure, but it seems likely that she would continue to support Fraser's rebellious interest in jazz from afar. My take is that Moira recognized the scent (which must have been very strong given how the items were far from people's noses) and knew not only who had sent it but who was continuing to interfere with her family. I assumed it was from Heloise because of the scent. After Fraser mentions that his mail smells good, Edward sniffs the letters he has, and doesn't seem to respond to any aroma, so I suspect that Heloise perfumed Fraser's letter, not Edward's--which furthers the notion that she's a bit pervy. My first thought about Moira noticing the scent on the catalog was that she had smelled the perfume on Edward. But she would already have smelled the perfume on Heloise herself, so any such revelation about Edward would have happened already. I like Karen's interpretation, that Moira was less than thrilled with Heloise being a sort of presence in the family, even when she wasn't there. Also, it reminds Moira that Heloise flirts with/interferes with TWO members of her family (pushy hussy!) I have to watch the ending again. When Edward left Fraser sitting there listening to jazz, was there a hint of a smile? I thought perhaps he was recognizing that Fraser was finding himself, and maybe respecting Fraser's choices (as opposed to just accepting them), even though they were so different from his own. I'm not an expert on kilts, but I think the traditional way to wear a kilt was with nothing underneath (I vaguely remember a rude song to that effect), but I suspect that most men now wear something under the kilt. Hmm, a reason to go to NYC for the St. Pat's parade--lots of pipe bands there. (A nearby high school has a pipe band, and I know the kids wear running shorts under their kilts.)

(Caribou) If we had company, there was always discussion: did they want to take a ride and who would take a ride. (Karen) So what is your take on the childish Edward's hogging the plane ride, when it was Fraser who initially asked? Instead, Edward shoved him aside (as he would later on several occasions with Heloise), saying he's too young. Poor little Fraser only gets to wear the pilot's helmet, while Edward gets to soar. Very poetically put and the way it is shown in the movie does highlight the friction between father and son. But, all of the children probably would have wanted to go also and it would have been an imposition on the Emporer of the Air to have to make that many trips. Also, a practical consideration would be the height of the seats. It seemed like even Moira was barely looking over the side. So, he really, truly might have been too young. (KathyF) Edward's experiments, with the exception of venting his chimney under the lawn, seem to do with making improvements (or trying to improve upon) already existing technology. I thought this was an improvement also, with the use of asbestos and the use of a horizontal draft. Our dryer vent goes horizontally for a very, short distance and then vertically to the roof. My LRTT (local, resident technical type) tells me his design would have worked if he had kept the horizontal distance shorter. :-) (KathyF) I thought the model airplane was probably meant to be a test of a new design. Doesn't Fraser say they are aeronautical studies? The airplane had been invented but it had a long way to go at that time. They had the basics but were not like our jets today. One necessary development was the Bernoulli principle. Wings of our planes are rounded on the top and flat on the bottom. The B principle is that the air flow under the flat part will be faster than the air going over the rounded top thus producing lift. (KathyF)Likewise, the strange car with the propeller behind it. That car is interesting because it is the shape of our airplane wings. My first impression was that it wouldn't be successful (we make our fast cars just the opposite--like a wedge.) However, my LRTT corrected me and said that Edward's would have been successful for what he was trying to do. Thirty to sixty mph was unheard of at that time and his shape would have been aerodynamically sound for those speeds. It is the shape a raindrop naturally assumes as it falls through the air at 30-60 mph. The propeller behind would have assisted without producing drag. (Karen) Very likely, there was something within that model that was his own invention. I'm assuming "that model" is the one on his desk when Heloise arrives for the bonspiel. It could have been the shape or even something as simple as the propeller in the back. I personally like the doors but LRTT says rounded and curved glass was not widely available at that time so, probably would have been without glass. :-) (Karen)He did not research the scientific basis for his schemes, which is why they mainly amounted to nothing. I can see how someone who wanted to do wouldn't want to take the time to read everything first. He would probably just go with the first idea after learning the first fact. (Karen)Unfortunately for him he had never studied the theory of sound as it is affected by the shape of the horn. Have to admit that a square amplifier was of no benefit. It's size probably made up a little for the error of it's shape. Sound is spherical, like soap bubbles, so what it travels through is better if it is round. Can you tell I was anxious for the discussion of inventions to get well under way? :-) (Karen) (Caribou, this might interest you as well from previous comments). I believe that I genuinely wanted to love and respect my father. All around me there were people who appeared to do so but to me he always remained a figure of fun and a source of aggravation. It's kind of sad really. I appreciate the truthfulness, though and that he presented an accurate enough view that years later I can be one who does admire his father.

This man had alot of issues from early childhood. I'm not blaming the parents for them either, unless the book says otherwise. So it would seem. I wish I had access to this book now to compare some things. But like New Cardiff, my local library branch doesn't have it. But, they are geting a real hoot out of me coming in and asking for these books! Of course, everyone being unique, would grow up with different perspectives and outcomes from any environment. While Sir Denis Forman experienced a rather more negative childhood in such circumstances, I wonder of the other children. What did they think of their years growing up in such a family and in such a place? I would bet my library card that there are some very different takes on their parents, Gamma, the Scottish country life, and their dear brother Sir Denis.

Kate, A St Patrick's Parade is Irish, and what an Irishman wears under his kilt, I know not. But I can tell you emphatically that a Scotsman shouldn't wear anything under his!!!

(Kate F) When Edward left Fraser sitting there listening to jazz, was there a hint of a smile? More than a hint, in fact. I love the progression of expressions in that scene. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, follow this link for about 9,000 words on the subject: http://www.geocities.com/rika9150/cf/end.html

It's the "blue soup" smile. Thanks Rika.Lovely.

My, oh, my what that guy can do with a mouth and two eyes! Thanks so much for the pictures, Rika. I have really been enjoying them!

Wonderful storyboard of the ending. Each pic says something different. Thank you, Rika.

Well, I must say that it was quite a sacrifice, spending time sorting through dozens of gorgeous close-ups of ODB in order to select a subset for the web page. But I've never been one to shy away from a difficult assignment!

EXACTLY!!!! The third in the series is the smile over the birthday dinner, just after the toast, before Mr. Fancy Pants comes along to spoil the night! Thanks Rika.....................

Thanks Rika...the "blue soup" smile scene is probably my favorite scene in this movie, and one of my favorites in BJD as well!

I'm going to pick up on an older thread: (Elizabeth) The Golden Bough would have been heretical indeed to someone of Edward's 'manly' religious orientation....Was any reference made to Forman's reading material in the biography? Very definitely. Two books in an unused den from his father's (not his grandfather's) school days were central to his development. The first was the Encyclopaedia of Ethics, which was his first source of information on sex; he learned the chapter on prostitution by heart and said none equaled it. The second was The Golden Bough. His reading of this book allowed him to understand the seeds of his cynicism toward many aspects of religion (e.g., divinity and faith) and emerge as a superior-thinking, rational atheist. It made him see his family (primarily the "Trinity"--his father, mother and grandmother) as backwards people, clinging to outmoded and illogical beliefs. Denis kept his views to himself until just before he went off to school at age 15. He wrote "the Trinity would have been shocked and would not have believed me. They would have thought I was trying it on as an act just to get a reaction. This would not have been an unreasonable response and it might have been true, but for once it wasn't." During one Sunday lunch, when his father was discussing that morning's sermon, Denis openly challenged the family's faith. Following the initial shock, his parents attempted to counter his statements, but he continued to escalate it into a furious shouting match and drove his mother to tears. He expected some real retribution or punishment, but it never came. While he did express some regret on the impact it had on his mother, the incident did cause a huge rift. With all this and Rika's pictures in mind, here is the library scene from the book:The Sunday after the row my mother was in bed with a backache. Sheila had gone away and my father and I were the only two remaining regular members of the usually much larger church party. When it came near to church time I did not change into the kilt, our Sunday uniform. Instead I stayed in the library in my old clothes playing the gramophone. When my father drove to the front door in the Talbot he didn't see me in the hall or the vestibule. Hearing the gramophone he opened the library door and standing in the door frame slowly took in the scene. Satchmo was defiantly rasping out one of his scat vocals. It was a sound that my father particularly abhorred. Without a word he backed out of the library, closed the door and a moment later I saw the Talbot disappearing down the north drive. I was free, but at the price of serious displeasure.As you can see, the basis for the split was far more serious in ature and I doubt Adam would've been smiling at the door. Ah, but this needed to be a light movie in the Miramax mode, complete with a bit with a dog.

(Karen relates) During one Sunday lunch...Denis openly challenged the family's faith...he continued to escalate it into a furious shouting match and drove his mother to tears. (and Forman wrote) They would have thought I was trying it on as an act just to get a reaction. Sounds very much like an attempt to get a reaction to me! He'd have done better to go away to school and just let it lie, but no, he just had to get back at them, didn't he? As if he was going to change their minds anyway? I'm far older than fifteen but still don't discuss religion or politics with my parents for very good reasons. Not only would it have been too 'heavy', they'd have had to take the characters over several more years, adding considerably to the length and expense.

(Karen relates) During one Sunday lunch...Denis openly challenged the family's faith...he continued to escalate it into a furious shouting match and drove his mother to tears. Well,I say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree....Moira certainly didn't *think* before she spouted off her little tirade at Edward after Gamma's funeral. That bratty kid probably was privy to other such scenarios.

(Pam) This man had alot of issues from early childhood. I'm not blaming the parents for them either, unless the book says otherwise. Of course the book says otherwise. ;-) It was written by the child, who laid everything at his parents' and grandmother's feet. Excellent start, Rika, on that list of incidents from the book that have been included in the movie. Here are some more: 11. Under the lawn flue for central heating furnace 12. Minister's name was Mr Finlayson 13. Edward's use of broad dialect for to speak to estate workers 14. Edward blew his nose during sex talks 15. Gamma loved sherry trifle (but had no idea there was any alcohol in it until she developed alcoholic poisoning 16. Discussion about animals going to heaven: dogs yes, but vermin no 17. Uncle who saw Christ on the lawn 18. Uncle Morris was rich, sophisticated, a natty dresser, did crossword puzzles, and had a friend who was a lesbian 19. How Uncle Morris met and proposed to Heloise (all the details match) 20. Story of a hotpot placed on the ice that fell through 21. Idea about how prostitution could help the church's finances 22. Sees a bull mating 23. Gathers fir cones, used to light his mother's fire (a penny a dozen) to buy records (Caribou) But, all of the children probably would have wanted to go also and it would have been an imposition on the Emporer of the Air to have to make that many trips Also, a practical consideration would be the height of the seats. It seemed like even Moira was barely looking over the side. So, he really, truly might have been too young. Good rationale, but he should've taken Fraser up with him (put him in his lap or whatever was required) since Fraser wanted to go and was his lab assistant. Most of the other kids looked like chickens to me anyway. ;-) Thanks for all the additional insights from your LRTT, Caribou. You might want to tell him, that putting the flue underground meant that nothing grew above it and there was a permanent brown stripe down the lawn as a result ;-) (Evelyn) Well, I say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree....That bratty kid probably was privy to other such scenarios. Oh no! That bratty kid wasn't even able to see his mother or grandmother exiting from the loo, no matter how hard he tried. ;-) BTW, Denis was a great reader of Greek mythology and considered the stories far superior to anything in the Bible, making this comment: "Jesus never turned himself into a bull or a swan so that he could have it off with ladies to whom access was difficult." ;-)

(Rika) Kathy, I have a question based on your in-depth study of the Stairmaster in the first scene of the movie. This question occurred to me when I read in Forman's book that Adam didn't wear any underwear in the summertime. So my question is, boxers, briefs, or au naturel? I have an opinion but I bow to your greater expertise. After watching this scene intently many times for obvious reasons, as he's rounding one set of stairs you can see an outline of what I would call briefs. Wishing of course for au natural, but definitely saw the outline against the pants. (Kate) I have to watch the ending again. When Edward left Fraser sitting there listening to jazz, was there a hint of a smile? I thought perhaps he was recognizing that Fraser was finding himself, and maybe respecting Fraser's choices (as opposed to just accepting them), even though they were so different from his own. Yes, there is a hint of a smile when he sees Fraser. Almost dimple action. Very cute, needless to say. Thanks for pictures Rika. They are droolable for sure. (Karen) Of course the book says otherwise. ;-) It was written by the child, who laid everything at his parents' and grandmother's feet. I realize the book was written in the child's point of view but wondered if there were statements from other family members to corroborate or refute his opinion, although he probably wouldn't say so now that I think about it. What an unhappy child he must have been, but only himself to blame for it. That's a shame.

(Karen)15. Gamma loved sherry trifle (but had no idea there was any alcohol in it until she developed alcoholic poisoning) Is that why she got "drunk" so easily or are there other symptoms of alcoholic poisoning? (Karen)You might want to tell him, that putting the flue underground meant that nothing grew above it and there was a permanent brown stripe down the lawn as a result ;-) Thanks, I will. Good thing we've never tried it, huh? If the leaking smoke was just for the movie, I'm so glad they added it -- I love that dancing scene! Dancing on a brown spot (even in the rain) would not have had the same effect! Oh, forgot about the delivery truck with cigar on top. When I told LRTT, he said, "That must be the exhaust." Had never thought about what was making the little puffs. Also been thinking about those semi-submersible, inflatable, vulcanized-rubber pantaloons. I agreed with Fraser and Morris until I realized I paid $50 to buy similiar contraption for my 1-year-old non-swimmer. I think it was called Aqua-Baby and was a red bathing suit with an innertube inserted around the waist. No doubt the inflatable innertube was made of vulcanized rubber. So, another of Edward's ideas that is still around today. (Karen) but he should've taken Fraser up with him (put him in his lap or whatever was required) since Fraser wanted to go and was his lab assistant. Most of the other kids looked like chickens to me anyway. ;-) That definitely would have been the kinder course of action but parents can't always think of that on the spur of the moment. I agree. I think Fraser, as a middle child, probably was the most daring and adventuresome of the bunch. He would have treasured the memory and it might have softened his views. I still have to side with his parents though because they were also discovering who he was along with him. The book was written after Denis had 40 or 50 years to think about what all of this meant. His parents (like most other parents) were flying by the seat of their pants. :-) (Karen) During one Sunday lunch, when his father was discussing that morning's sermon, Denis openly challenged the family's faith. Really like how this is posted on a Sunday. Very apt! (Karen) As you can see, the basis for the split was far more serious in nature and I doubt Adam would've been smiling at the door. Smiling approval would have been against his character and his own better judgment.

(Caribou) Also been thinking about those semi-submersible, inflatable, vulcanized-rubber pantaloons. When visiting near Mt. Hood, Oregon when I lived on the West Coast, I saw fisherman in lakes and ponds with something very similar. No paddles though. Logical for Edward as he was teaching them to fly fish later on.

20. Story of a hotpot placed on the ice that fell through What I didn't get about that is that the curling scenes seemed to be on firm ground, in the garden surrounded by hedges that is shown in previous scenes. The hedges seem to be in place in the background on the falling through scene, too, but the loch appears to be on their other side, a considerable distance away. Could just be me, though...

Just got all set up on my lap top here on vacation at the Jersey shore. Boy you ladies were v.busy yesterday. Thank you, Rika for those pictures. You just keep getting better and better.Ah it was great to see the blue soup smile. Glad I brought BJD with me. Think it might need some watching tonight. (PAM)Wishing of course for au natural, but definitely saw the outline against the. Always looking for the au natural, of course, but sadly, I saw the outline of the briefs as well. I had another thought on the Halloween Party. I get the impression, after another viewing, that Fraser and his friend almost stage the fight to get out of dancing. Fraser is not pleased that he has to start the dancing of the gay gourdance in the first place. I suspect these two had done this sort of thing before. They seemed very pleased after what did or didn't happen in the study. Thanks for the interesting insights on the inventions, ladies.

closing tags with this very unfamiliar lap top

(Lisa) The third in the series is the smile over the birthday dinner, just after the toast, before Mr. Fancy Pants comes along to spoil the night! Lisa, Dorine, Evelyn, Linda, and others who've mentioned the blue soup scene.... you know what this has me tempted to do, of course???? But I just got home from a very long day trip, so it'll have to wait till tomorrow.... plus of course it belongs in other topic. (Karen) 14. Edward blew his nose during sex talks Oh my gosh! I had wondered why on earth either the screenwriter, the director, or CF had made that choice. Never imagined it was from the book. (Pam) ....you can see an outline of what I would call briefs. Wishing of course for au natural, but definitely saw the outline against the pants. That was my opinion as well. I wouldn't have thought twice about it, had I not read the comment in the book that Adam Forman only wore underwear during the colder seasons. 20. Story of a hotpot placed on the ice that fell through That's something I've wondered about. Why was this such a surprising thing for them? Ice + Heat = Melting - and this was intense heat. I know the ice was thick, but still!

I've been gone (out of town and computerless) since Friday night, and must now play catchup. My apologies if I miss anything or repeat anything someone else has said. I have a lot of postings to read... (Rika) Kathy, I have a question based on your in-depth study of the Stairmaster in the first scene of the movie. This question occurred to me when I read in Forman's book that Adam didn't wear any underwear in the summertime. So my question is, boxers, briefs, or au naturel? I have an opinion but I bow to your greater expertise. (FanPam) After watching this scene intently many times for obvious reasons, as he's rounding one set of stairs you can see an outline of what I would call briefs. Wishing of course for au natural, but definitely saw the outline against the pants. (lindak) Always looking for the au natural, of course, but sadly, I saw the outline of the briefs as well. (Rika) That was my opinion as well. I wouldn't have thought twice about it, had I not read the comment in the book that Adam Forman only wore underwear during the colder seasons. I was going to bring this up, as a new topic (Underwear, its uses or not?), but didn't get around to it. I'm voting au naturel. :-) In my slowmo studies, I've considered this a lot, and I think it is probably the tail of his shirt tucked in, but nothing else -- no visible pantylines of any sort. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I believe it's a shirttail. And I know CF likes to be time-appropriate, insofar as his characters' clothing are concerned... I base this on some statement he made about P&P (can't tell you exactly what it was, or where I read it, but I thought, "oh, my!"). I'm going to go back to MLSF (once again), armed with my trusty remote, and make a thorough study. ;-) I'll let you know of my findings. Of course, there are several scenes to study, so it could take time... (Kate F) I have to watch the ending again. When Edward left Fraser sitting there listening to jazz, was there a hint of a smile? I thought perhaps he was recognizing that Fraser was finding himself, and maybe respecting Fraser's choices (as opposed to just accepting them), even though they were so different from his own. My feeling exactly! He sees himself in Fraser, even though their preferences in music are different. And the same for the "facts of life" scene. Edward doesn't seem too worried, until Fraser mentions hearing music. And then it's something like, "my God. If you ever hear music in your dreams again...you must take a cold plunge." (sorry, I can't quote exactly, because in order to to gain access to the DVD player, I must surrender the computer to my son). Edward loves music, and music must equal sex for him, so if Fraser dreams of music, it must be a sexual dream. Thanks, Karen, for the list of incidents based on the book. I'll read it as soon as I can get my hands on it. Thanks, Rika, for the "blue soup" pictures. Isn't he adorable?! *sigh* Now I must do some research. Thanks, everyone, for the fascinating posts! Hopefully, I'll be caught up tomorrow.

(Kathy) I'm going to go back to MLSF (once again), armed with my trusty remote, and make a thorough study. ;-) I'll let you know of my findings. Of course, there are several scenes to study, so it could take time... Your devotion to duty is commendable!

(Rika) Lisa, Dorine, Evelyn, Linda, and others who've mentioned the blue soup scene.... you know what this has me tempted to do, of course???? When you do that Rika, could you please throw in the "On foot"? smile. Because I think the "Blue Soup" smile is a spin-off of the former. ("On Foot" & the Lambton Inn are my fave scenes in P&P)

(Pam) but wondered if there were statements from other family members to corroborate or refute his opinion, although he probably wouldn't say so now that I think about it. That's right. These are his views and, more importantly, of how they shaped his life, which he describes. He stated thatit was this isolation that forced me to become a very private person, living inside the extrovert and effervescent boy that appeared in public....The private person was often perplexed and unhappy. The public person was all laughter and charm. As the two drew away from each other they formed a dichotomy which was to become permanent.... I have no doubt that this complete separation of the two people living inside one person is the result of those Craigielands years when the best way to get through life was to show a cheerful front at all times in the nursery, in the servants' hall, to the estate workers and above all tot he Trinity, who if they had had an inkling of the wilder sexual fantasies that were racing through my mind would almost certainly have sent for Dr Huskie--who would, in turn, surely have prescribed a cold bath on the hour, every hour.Actually, I found the book more interesting after having seen the movie and only from the standpoint of seeing how they took such source material and made it into a feel-good movie. I don't think it gives a better understanding of the film, except for its Where's Waldo aspects. As far as other children's views, he does mention that his older brother was closer to his father and doesn't share his opinion, but that his younger brother does. He also comments that his siblings (and cousins) were sexually repressed and that his oldest sister (Elspeth) never got married because she viewed all potential suitors as "lecherous predatory male[s]." (Caribou) Is that why she got "drunk" so easily or are there other symptoms of alcoholic poisoning? I believe she got spots. (Caribou) Smiling approval would have been against his character and his own better judgment. LOL! Clever girl. 14. Edward blew his nose during sex talks (Rika) I had wondered why on earth either the screenwriter, the director, or CF had made that choice. Never imagined it was from the book. Feeling a bit like Fraser/Denis, I recommend the section on the two sex talks (one about girls provided by their mother and the other by their father) starting on p. 153. Very amusing, especially as Adam's direction to his boys about wet dreams was "The thing to do after a wet dream...is to get up, have a cold tub, eat your breakfast and think no more about it." The precocious child's POV questions aimed at portions of their explanations are quite funny. (Rika) That's something I've wondered about. Why was this such a surprising thing for them? Ice + Heat = Melting - and this was intense heat. I know the ice was thick, but still! Denis had only heard about this happening. Never witnessed it. (Kathy) Edward loves music, and music must equal sex for him, so if Fraser dreams of music, it must be a sexual dream. Never thought of it this way.

(Kathy) Edward loves music, and music must equal sex for him They did a study....and it is for most people:-D

(Evelyn) When you do that Rika, could you please throw in the "On foot"? smile. Yes, that's an excellent suggestion! Rika, you could even have a montage of "blue soup" and "on foot?" smirks and smiles from throughout his career. I think there were some cute ones in TA/HOTPig, too. And it can be updated when TIOBE comes out. I can think of several good ones there. Aren't you glad I'm volunteering you for this? ;-D Do it myself if I could.

Oh dear...what did I start? (Dorine)Aren't you glad I'm volunteering you for this? ;-D Do it myself if I could. You could help Dorine... Perhaps you could indicate *where* in each film BS smiles occur ;-D BS smiles are whimsical...the eyes have a twinkle. Different from the "moony" smile he gives Lizzie in the Pemberley parlor with the fixed adoring gaze. I prefer those to the big toothy smiles; which is my objection to Valmont. He smiles too much...too many teeth. (And then there's MT screeching:"Valmon, Valmon" with that pseudo- French accent).*shudder*

Whoa whoa whoa, Rika can only do ones from DVDs and ones that she owns. So let's be nice. :)

Oh, Rika, I would certainly help if I could too. What the heck is an On foot smile?

This is 'onfoot' and it's more of a smirk than a smile:

(Kate F) I have to watch the ending again. When Edward left Fraser sitting there listening to jazz, was there a hint of a smile? I thought perhaps he was recognizing that Fraser was finding himself, and maybe respecting Fraser's choices (as opposed to just accepting them), even though they were so different from his own. Fraser and Edward are so very different in tastes. Fraser has such a need to be independent and thought of as different. He sees himself as different from anyone else as he desires to be. Thanks to Karen for incites from book. It isn't as obvious in the movie. (I like the Fraser in the movie so much more than the Dennis in the book.) And whether he realizes it or not, this need to be independent and different is exactly the need of Edward. IMO there is no one more independent or different from the average person than Edward. He thrives on this and strives for it. Therefore, although he does not agree with Frasers opinions and choices he can respect and understand them. That is the bond they share. Again examined the stairmaster scenes. And still maintain outline in pants is from briefs as opposed to shirttail.

(Rika) I have a question based on your in-depth study of the Stairmaster in the first scene of the movie. This question occurred to me when I read in Forman's book that Adam didn't wear any underwear in the summertime. So my question is, boxers, briefs, or au naturel? I have an opinion but I bow to your greater expertise. I spent much time (perhaps too much, as I stayed up too late and suffered severe thumb strain) last night doing extensive research on the GUQ (Great Underwear Question). I went frame by frame through the first three Stairmaster scenes, and the Laddermaster scene, while my evidence may not persuade all of you, I still favor the au naturel. Sore thumbs notwithstanding, I have enjoyed my exhaustive research to the fullest. It is, of course, very time-consuming, and on several occasions I have been forced to leave the film paused on closeups of CF's bum, whilst attending to various chores. So far, I have spent almost two hours going through the first five minutes of the movie, searching for evidence. It's a hard job, but somebody has to do it! In case anyone else wants to recreate my in-depth study and needs help on frame by frame -- on my DVD player, I find the scene I wish to view, then alternately press pause and slow forward, then pause and slow forward, etc. But I must keep hitting each button alternately, or it will just keep going slowly (not frame-by-frame). I position one thumb on pause, and the other on the slow forward button. If your reflexes are really fast, and the buttons conveniently placed, you might use the thumb and forefinger of one hand. You can also do frame by frame backwards, of course, by alternately pressing the slow reverse and pause buttons. As far as the burning question -- I'm sticking with my original opinion of au naturel because, in scenes where ODB's pants are stretched tightly over his butt, there are no visible lines. Only in scenes where the fabric is somewhat slack, does the "briefs" line appear. Also, the aforementioned line is very strange. It makes a not-quite-diagonal line from somewhere around the bottom of CF's cheeks (you know which ones) upwards toward his waist. There is no corresponding line heading toward his crotch. Believe me, I've looked :-) These would have to be very strange briefs indeed (something Italian?) to create those lines. And I believe CF would never allow one of his characters to wear something totally out of period. He cares too much for detail. Here are the scenes I used for my "evidence", and the time marker wherein each occurs: Outside stairs 02:30-02:31: Really nice indeed, as CF reaches for the banister on the left and rounds the stairs. Don't see lines on most of the shots. Gosh, he's purty! Four of these frames are just magnificent. Do yourselves a favor and check this out frame-by-frame if you can! As Colin reaches for the banister on the left, after the first short flight of stairs, hit pause, then go frame by frame for the next four frames. Yummmmmmm! Inside Stairs 02:59-03:00: At times, there is a line, and at other times there isn't. However, when his right foot is on the fourth step from the landing and his left foot is heading for the next step up, you can clearly see (if you freeze frame), that the hated line does not go all the way to the bottom of his butt. IMO It is clearly a shirttail. Hallelujah! As he turns left at the landing, there is the line, but it is below his cheeks, reinforcing my hypothesis that it isn't a telltale underwear line at all, but merely a wrinkle in his trousers caused by the shirttail. Inside Stairs 03:16-03:17: Up more stairs. Here's a nice closeup. Pants are stretched tight against cheeks, and there are no lines. Laddermaster scene 04:07: Rika has a capture of this in response 280. No line. In previous frames there is a faint line, but again I feel it is merely shirttail and not dreaded briefs. Well, I still have 91 minutes of MLSF to study, so I have much to do. This has been such a trial! Will Edward wear underwear in the winter? Does CF care what EP would wear? Does anyone think that the reason for our long right-left debate might be underwear-related? I mean, briefs would position *things* in a certain place, whereas boxers or au naturel might not... Does Kathy need to get a life?! Rika, I know you have your work cut out for you, but could you perhaps (at some point -- I don't want you to get stressed) get my evidence at 03:00 on the aforementioned fourth step? Now, to see who's posted while I've been composing this...

making sure tag is definitely closed... But I gotta tell ya, I'm laughing so hard now and I've got to print this out and keep it for posterity....or at least in my MLSF file folder. Kath- We're going to have to invent an award for you. Evelyn, start searching your image files!! The burdens we all have and the self-sacrifice the work entails. BRAVO!!!

Kathy, I'm ROTFL! Excellent dedication! (Dorine)Aren't you glad I'm volunteering you for this? ;-D Do it myself if I could. (Evelyn) You could help Dorine... Perhaps you could indicate *where* in each film BS smiles occur ;-D BS smiles are whimsical...the eyes have a twinkle. Different from the "moony" smile he gives Lizzie in the Pemberley parlor with the fixed adoring gaze. *heavy sigh* This could be a real chore, but guess I can try ;-D. In BS smiles he narrows his eyes, or sometimes seems to lightly squint while just turning up the corners of his mouth. I have been planning to buy a DVD player and a larger screen TV in a month or so, and silly me, I thought I'd just be watching movies on it. Never thought it would be employed as a research tool, too. ;-D

Wow, spend a few hours offline, and when you come back you've got all sorts of work to do! First things first. Kathy, I will be happy to collect the evidence you've requested just as soon as I stop laughing. I knew the GUQ was in good hands, but I didn't know just how good till tonight! Second, I collected a gallery of captures from the Blue Soup scene earlier today. I just need to go through and pick the best examples, and then we can debate the boundaries of the BS Smile category. I'll probably post on 149, since this is definitely drifting away from MLSF. As Natasha said, just give me time!

Kathy, you are a gem. Since I just ordered my DVD, I can't wait to get home from vacation and get to work. Watching VHS with this crowd is a no-no. How come we always end up in the same place-and you all know where I mean. Well it must be that great minds thing again. Rika, you are such a clever girl--Thanks for everything, ladies. This has certainly turned into more than just a film discussion. No telling where we'll end up

(Kathy) Inside Stairs 02:59-03:00: At times, there is a line, and at other times there isn't. However, when his right foot is on the fourth step from the landing and his left foot is heading for the next step up, you can clearly see (if you freeze frame), that the hated line does not go all the way to the bottom of his butt. IMO It is clearly a shirttail. Hallelujah! As he turns left at the landing, there is the line, but it is below his cheeks, reinforcing my hypothesis that it isn't a telltale underwear line at all, but merely a wrinkle in his trousers caused by the shirttail. Okay, here's my best effort. I hope I've got the right stuff. I have the left foot, not right, on the 4th step, though - have I counted wrong?

Even if I lighten those up, it's awfully hard to distinguish between natural folds and the fabric as one is in motion, climbing too, and lines due to some undergarments. Nevertheless, this was very entertaining. :) (Pam) I like the Fraser in the movie so much more than the Dennis in the book. I wonder sometimes whether they tried to slip in a few book Denis moments. Gamma certainly has the view that Fraser is a bit of a bad boy. Doesn't she call him our "wild animal" like the stoat at the dinner table when tipsy? Then, when Fraser runs back, screaming "I hate him" from the moss factory after getting the boot from dad, Gamma says: "He's getting out of control, Moira. His father had better take a firmer hand with him. One tantrum hot on the heels of another." We didn't get to see that tantrum, but we did get to see him run off and throw those Beethoven busts in the loch, another tantrum. I did a little zooming and freeze-frame advancing in a couple of other areas. First was the loch dip scene, since the book talked about the snorting noises and slapping around that Edward did. I wanted to see if Colin had attempted those mannerisms too, as he did the nose blowing. It was had to tell, but if you zoom in on Colin in the loch, his face looks very much in pain, as it was so cold. The second area was coming up the ladder in the moss factory, when he interrupts Fraser and Heloise. No underwear lines per se, but excellent zoom potential as he emerges from the ladder. ;-) Colin made the following comments about his character: "There are certain things Edward does which are pretty close to irredeemable but I've grown to like him a lot. He changes for the better through the course of the film because it is hard for him to maintain his conventions when out of the mouth of his son come such obvious truths. Fraser constantly asks questions which challenge the orthodoxy of Edward's life and they are incredibly difficult to deal with because they come from innocence, not from a rival political point of view."

(Rika) I hope I've got the right stuff. I have the left foot, not right, on the 4th step, though - have I counted wrong? I think it's the one to the left, although my screen is rather dark, to add to the darkness of the original shot (interior, etc.). Thanks! (Karen) Even if I lighten those up, it's awfully hard to distinguish between natural folds and the fabric as one is in motion, climbing too, and lines due to some undergarments. Nevertheless, this was very entertaining. Yes, I'll be the first to admit it's hard to differentiate. I wish I had a HDTV that was much bigger than my old 21-incher! (Karen) Gamma certainly has the view that Fraser is a bit of a bad boy. Doesn't she call him our "wild animal" like the stoat at the dinner table when tipsy? Then, when Fraser runs back, screaming "I hate him" from the moss factory after getting the boot from dad, Gamma says: "He's getting out of control, Moira. His father had better take a firmer hand with him. One tantrum hot on the heels of another." We didn't get to see that tantrum, but we did get to see him run off and throw those Beethoven busts in the loch, another tantrum. Every time I watch, I wonder about Gamma's statement. We certainly don't see too much of the bad Fraser, except for his "very bad thing" at the start, when he runs back from the moss factory screaming, and the busts in the loch. Of course, the bust incident occurred after Gamma's statement, so all we had to go on was something that happened when he was three (?) and then another incident when he is 10. Of course, a knowledge of the book would clarify things, but the average person watching the movie wouldn't have read the book. (Karen) It was had to tell, but if you zoom in on Colin in the loch, his face looks very much in pain, as it was so cold. You can hear how cold he is in his voice, too, when he says, "Procrastination only intensifies the sensation of shock." Interesting quote from Colin on his character. He seems to put so much thought into his portrayals.

(Kathy) As far as the burning question -- I'm sticking with my original opinion of au naturel because, in scenes where ODB's pants are stretched tightly over his butt, there are no visible lines. Only in scenes where the fabric is somewhat slack, does the "briefs" line appear. These would have to be very strange briefs indeed (something Italian?) to create those lines. You mean like this? Kathy)And I believe CF would never allow one of his characters to wear something totally out of period. He cares too much for detail. He didn't wear those nappie thingies in P&P:-)

Thank you, Evelyn -- this is very enlightening! And it opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. I must give it some serious thought. ;-)

Hi all - I have gone from being a lurker to a participant YEAH (thanks Karen!!)In the last few days have watched MLSF for the first and second times, so it's great to now know what you are all talking about !! Havent read the book so don't know much about the "bad" Edward, and don't know if this has been discussed before, but in the film he came across as a caring father - he was there 24 / 7 with his family and participated in their lives which would have been quite different from lots of men of that time. So what if he wasn't what Fraser (Denis) would have liked as an influence - who can honestly say that they want to be just like their parents when they grow up ?? My parents sent me to a high school where I didn't know anyone and took a long time to settle in - should I now blame them for my sometimes lack of social skills ?? As for being sexually repressed, obviously Edward invited Moira up for a slank, which I assume is sex, within the hearing of the children - I was obviously born decades later but never heard my parents discussing anything remotely like sex. Perhaps you have discussed this all before and sorry for being so long winded by have wanted to join in for a while now. Also, today is MY BIRTHDAY (keep it quiet - getting too old) but as I live in Australia it is the 14th here already, so it is still a day away for you

(Evelyn) You mean like this? I've given this matter quite a bit of consideration. In fact, I considered it all the way home from work. I'll probably be considering it into the night. Those clever Italians (or whomever). I really need a rear view, however, to help with my studies... After I posted last night, I moved along through MLSF at a snail's pace ;-) and managed to get through six minutes and 22 seconds of the movie. I might have made it further, but as usual I found something to interest me. 06:15 to 06:18: This is the scene that starts with Fraser on the roof holding the experimental airplane and Edward down on the ground, leaning against the big reel thing. The best way to watch this scene is to use the slowest frame-by-frame you have, and just let it run (instead of stopping at each frame). Watch CF crank. Hmmmm. Nessie and his two friends are there, and definitely on the left. :-) Nice action, Colin! (Really, really wish I had a larger television, though.) Welcome, Annea, and Happy Birthday!

Hello, Annea, Welcome Aboard. Happy B-day. Great work Kathy. However do not have all your technology so can only follow the VHS view with tracing of my finger along lines, which I must say was enjoyable. Evelyn you are outstanding. Great job. Being roll is so physical, common sense would dictate some protection for most endeared attributes. Wouldn't want any harm to come to the precious jewels.

Evelyn, you don't know how close I came to seeking out a photo like that earlier today to illustrate another possible explanation for the smooth profile under the trousers! Lovely, just lovely. But I agree with Kathy - we need a rear view as well. Oh, and Kathy, I watched the flying experiment scene and I agree with your analysis. The left, without a doubt. Your attention to detail continues to be remarkable. (Annea)he was there 24 / 7 with his family and participated in their lives which would have been quite different from lots of men of that time. First of all, welcome! Second, this was my reaction too. Edward may have spent more time with his kids than Adam did in the book, but even so, Denis refers to going on "field trip" type educational excursions with his father. Sounded nice to me. So what if he wasn't what Fraser (Denis) would have liked as an influence - who can honestly say that they want to be just like their parents when they grow up ?? Right. I think most of us harbor some resentment or disappointment regarding our childhoods. We just don't all write books about it and thus indulge our whiny impulses like he did. And he didn't just stick to complaining about his folks. He griped about nearly everything they had to do as kids - taking tea in the drawing room, going to church, being in the nursery, and on and on. I could understand this sour attitude if he'd written the book at age ten, but you'd think an adult looking back would have a bit more sense. By the way, Anne, I hope you'll check the Odds & Ends topic in a bit - I'm heading there now to leave a little something for you.

ANNE AND HAPPY BIRTHDAY Glad you could join us.

(Pam)Being roll is so physical, common sense would dictate some protection for most endeared attributes. Wouldn't want any harm to come to the precious jewels. And they are precious. Thank you Evelyn for that visual. I think they match a pair of shoes I saw around here. You are right, Rika- I had that same underwear thought in my head that Evelyn posted. WELCOME ANNEA, AND A VERY HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU.

(Kathy) Watch CF crank. Hmmmm. Nessie and his two friends are there, and definitely on the left. :-) Nice action, Colin! (Really, really wish I had a larger television, though.) ROTF! Now, is this where we'd like to think he periodically pops in to read this board....or not? ;-D

Wow, I really need to buy the movie....it's time for a Nessie hunt of my own. :) Welcome Annea, hope you have as much fun here as I do! And Evelyn, I don't think that we have seen enough of that to get the idea....hahah...perhaps if we saw other colors and angles I'd understand more? ;-)

(FanPam) However do not have all your technology so can only follow the VHS view with tracing of my finger along lines, which I must say was enjoyable. I'm sure it was! :-) Perhaps I should try the "hands-on" approach.

Hi - just keeping up to date. Watched MLSF last night with DH - thought that it might be too quirky for him, but he loved it - think perhaps because it is based on a true story. He can't believe that in the book Edward was portrayed so badly (neither of us have read it) and he said that he never wants to read it, as that would spoil the story. Am slowly but surely turning him into a CF fan, although the drooling will definitely not happen. Each time I watch a CF movie try to get some lines for everyday future life such as "it's a real fight" "Jones" "please, please, please, please, please f..... f... off" and now from MLSF "right, well that's that then" "slank" (hope that I quoted these correctly - usually takes a few viewings. Tried to check out the pants line and cranking scene, but they happened so fast !! It's back to the video shop tomorrow so perhaps one more viewing beforehand ???

I know that all of you know I have seen this film several times, but since the crank scene came up(ha)I've been on vacation without my new DVD. I got confused last night-are we talking cranking the car? Yet it seemed to be mentioned concerning the airplane experiment? I'm keeping track of all these must see parts now that I have it in DVD-will have to wait until the 24th to view though. (Dorine)ROTF! Now, is this where we'd like to think he periodically pops in to read this board....or not? ;-D Oh, God. We can always change the names to protect the innocent.

As you know, I've been watching MLSF very slowly for the past couple of days. Although I have no new Nessie sightings to report (but I'm nowhere near the end of the movie), I've noticed a few interesting things: In the scene where Edward and the boys are running to the loch for their plunge, as they approach Gamma and Morris, RH doesn't look at CF at all as she steps to one side to let him pass. However, after he goes by, she turns and watches him (the boys haven't reached her yet). Is is possible that RH likes a rear view, too? ;-) We haven't said much about Fraser's hilarious prostitution proposal at the dinner table. The looks on everyone's faces are priceless, as everyone appears stunned, except Gamma, who appears positively pacific (probably owing to the sherry trifle). Then, as everyone else breaks into laughter, Gamma comes apart. (I just loved RH in this role.) I know this was on Karen's list of scenes that had a basis in the book, and I was wondering if (in real life) Fraser's comments were made in innocence, or did he have an inkling of what he was saying. This question just occurred to me today. Considering some of the comments about Denis Forman's personality, I began to wonder. I know it was supposed to be innocent in the film, because Fraser is completely mystified by everyone's reaction.

(Kathy) I was wondering if (in real life) Fraser's comments were made in innocence, or did he have an inkling of what he was saying. Let me clarify, he never brought the idea up in public. That was just something he thought up (prostitution to help the church); then it mentions that he went down to lunch, with his mind all in a turmoil. His thoughts, as they're expressed in the book, sound very much like someone who was genuinely innocent. Although I can't say the same about his questions at the sex talk. Seems like Fraser's books would've covered his first question pretty thoroughly. ;-)

(Kathy) Is is possible that RH likes a rear view, too? ;-) I think it's highly possible, though it all gets a little strange when one considers RH's daughter's former close acquaintance with that particular rear view. (Linda) are we talking cranking the car? No. When Fraser was on the roof waiting to release the plane, Edward had a large reel with rope on it, and he was cranking it. If you need a visual reminder, e-mail me and I'll send you one. (Karen)Although I can't say the same about his questions at the sex talk. Seems like Fraser's books would've covered his first question pretty thoroughly. ;-) Perhaps with the first question he was testing his theory that he knew more about sex than his father. But when he got to the thing that might have been an angel's trumpet, he apparently wasn't in possession of all of the facts! But if I'm remembering the description of the alternate ending, neither was Edward, at least at that point in time.

(Rika) I think it's highly possible, though it all gets a little strange when one considers RH's daughter's former close acquaintance with that particularrear view. I know, this thought occurred to me, too. Seemed a little pervy. ;-) But, as I always say, it doesn't hurt to look! (Rika) No. When Fraser was on the roof waiting to release the plane, Edward had a large reel with rope on it, and he was cranking it. If you need avisual reminder, e-mail me and I'll send you one. And you aren't going to share it with the rest of us??! (Karen) His thoughts, as they're expressed in the book, sound very much like someone who was genuinely innocent. I was thinking perhaps the article he read wasn't terribly explicit, so he didn't really understand what prostitution entailed.

I'd like to go back to Colin's comment about his character, in which he says "[Edward] changes for the better through the course of the film because it is hard for him to maintain his conventions when out of the mouth of his son come such obvious truths. Fraser constantly asks questions which challenge the orthodoxy of Edward's life and they are incredibly difficult to deal with because they come from innocence, not from a rival political point of view." Doesn't this seem to say that Edward is becoming more tolerant of other views, like jazz in that last scene and his son striking off on his own? Does this mean that Edward is no longer going to be that eccentric, child-like inventor? Is he not only going to settle down (having chosen Moira and atoned for his "very bad thing") and try to be a responsible estate owner, even though the end credits tell us that he was forced to sell it shortly thereafter? Also, a little bit more, this time from MEM on her character, which goes to the "trailer trash" topic. I believe she saw it a little differently than we did: a choice between no manners or erupting under the strain. "Moira has a very domineering and rich mother, a highly eccentric husband and six funny children, so she could easily have been overshadowed in the story. But I wanted you to feel her presence throughout the film. She is the matriarch-in-waiting who keeps her peace until she really needs to bare her claws and fight for her family. And then she knows which battle to choose." Well, we certainly saw her bare that one pointy claw. ;-) (AnneA) As for being sexually repressed, obviously Edward invited Moira up for a slank, which I assume is sex, within the hearing of the children - I was obviously born decades later but never heard my parents discussing anything remotely like sex. I too found this rather incongruous. The parents obviously had a healthy sex life, yet Denis could not see the positive aspects of it. The source of his gripe is that they never discussed the subject or their answers were incomplete, pathetic and fairly laughable. (Rika) He griped about nearly everything they had to do as kids - taking tea in the drawing room, going to church, being in the nursery, and on and on. I could understand this sour attitude if he'd written the book at age ten, but you'd think an adult looking back would have a bit more sense. No argument about the "griping," much of which is normal (as you said) from a child's perspective. But didn't you find some of the musings pretty humorous on how a child's mind works? For example, when his mother was attempting to explain menstruation (women get tired) and said the egg was expelled, he starts wondering where (their ears??) since his mother won't answer. Funny stuff. (Kathy) Is is possible that RH likes a rear view, too? ;-) LOL! Your frame-by-frame study is really paying off. ;-) (Rika) But when he got to the thing that might have been an angel's trumpet, he apparently wasn't in possession of all of the facts! But if I'm remembering the description of the alternate ending, neither was Edward, at least at that point in time. Don't you wonder where Edward went to look it up? And, if it was news to him, if it became part of their slanking repertoire? (Kathy) I was thinking perhaps the article he read wasn't terribly explicit, so he didn't really understand what prostitution entailed. He doesn't go into detail about what was in the encyclopaedia's entry for prostitution, but he says this: "Good Lord! So did people really do things like that? How exciting - and in temples too, free of charge." From there, he goes on to speculate how it could raise money for his church. Kind of vague. Sounds like a biblical reference perhaps.

(Rika) I think it's highly possible, though it all gets a little strange when one considers RH's daughter's former close acquaintance with that particular rear view. Oh I don't know. Mother's and daughter's often find they are attracted to the same type man. I know my daughter and I often agree on hot men and their attributes. Nothing wrong in a mother showing a little appreciation in daughter's choice or visa versa. Age is not a consideration in the appreciation of a glorious butt.

(Karen) Doesn't this seem to say that Edward is becoming more tolerant of other views, like jazz in that last scene and his son striking off on his own? I was thinking along these same lines last night, while crawling through the movie. I came to the scene with the weird propeller car, when Edward says, "jazz is sneaky, and treacherous, and downright effeminate." (Wasn't this a strange statement?! ) And yet, in that last scene he assesses the situation and decides the best course of action is no action at all, and leaves Fraser to his jazz, cigar and naked ladies. In an earlier post, you quoted from the book: "Hearing the gramophone he opened the library door and standing in the door frame slowly took in the scene. Satchmo was defiantly rasping out one of his scat vocals. It was a sound that my father particularly abhorred. Without a word he backed out of the library, closed the door and a moment later I saw the Talbot disappearing down the north drive. I was free, but at the price of serious displeasure." I wonder, if he was so displeased, why his father didn't say anything to Denis. If he was the ogre Denis apparently made him out to be, it seems he would have blown up completely. (FanPam) Mother's and daughter's often find they are attracted to the same type man. I know my daughter and I often agree on hot men and their attributes. Nothing wrong in a mother showing a little appreciation in daughter's choice or visa versa. Age is not a consideration in the appreciation of a glorious butt. Considering how many less-than-glorious butts there are out there (too big, too bony, too flat), it's so nice to find one straight out of "The Three Bears" -- just right! And, by the way, my 80-year-old mother and I are in complete agreement about ODB. I guess she's one of those blue-hairs everybody's always talking about (although it's not blue).

(book) Without a word he backed out of the library, closed the door and a moment later I saw the Talbot disappearing down the north drive. I was free, but at the price of serious displeasure. (Kathy) And yet, in that last scene he assesses the situation and decides the best course of action is no action at all, and leaves Fraser to his jazz, cigar and naked ladies. I wonder, if he was so displeased, why his father didn't say anything to Denis. If he was the ogre Denis apparently made him out to be, it seems he would have blown up completely. Ogre might not be the right word. Denis termed the three of them bigots. However, not saying anything would be in character if they had already had a big fight. In the book, they never spoke about it again, the parents believing that Denis was a hopeless case, an immoral boy, a bad lot and one who did so to gain attention. Not only was further discussion futile, but it would be likely to degenerate into a shouting match again. When he went into his father's office, expecting to be reprimanded, Adam only advised a cooling off period and time to think about what he had done.

He grew up to be a pretty handsome chap. The second book talks about his experiences in Italy. http://www.war-experience.org/archives/personal/forman.htm "Sir Denis Forman was Chairman of Granada Television from 1974-87, and was particularly associated with programmes such as World in Action, and The Jewel in the Crown. He was appointed Deputy Chaiman of the Granada Group from 1984 to 1990, and he has played a part in developing the company's broadcasting interests in Europe and in British Sky Broadcasting. He was Deputy Chairman of the Royal Opera House (1981-91) and Chairman of the Booker panel of judges in 1990. He was made a Fellow of BAFTA in 1977, and of the BFI in 1993. He has written several books including Mozart's Piano Concertos - The First Movements."

Vacation and stuff have prevented being part of the in-depth analysis you all have engaged in but I think I've caught up. While I have not participated much yet, I have certainly benefited from the "thorough" nature of the analysis and look forward to viewing the movie again with some of your "insights" in mind. If I'm a little "behind", I hope you will forgive me! On my initial viewing for purposes of this forum, I noticed one thing I've not seen mentioned and would like another opinion on what I saw. Perhaps no one else has observed what I saw as most observations have related to, how shall I put it -- more southerly areas? My observation is to the utmost north. Do we see here evidence of (dare I say it?) the dreaded MPB? The scene in question is after the main fracas after the funeral, Edward leaves and goes down the stairs to face the crowd at the bottom. He is apparently lit from overhead. He stops and turns to face Moira who is calling to him from the top of the stairs. Is it unkind lighting that makes the top of his head seem to glow somewhat lighter than the rest of his head before he turns or is it merely the aura he always seems to possess? It is almost easy to miss because otherwise his hair is so inviting in MLSF in its riot of unruly curls, but I think it's there all the same. Am I seeing things?

Evelyn, thanks for the link. He was a cutie! I'll probably never get around to reading "To Reason Why," but found this brief summary of his war experiences interesting. I don't understand the Epidiascope cards, though. I don't mean the ones about the battle plans, but the ones that seem to have something to do with morale -- "out of sight, out of mind" and the other strange one with the smiling/crying soldiers. Apparently art was not Denis' strong suit. I loved The Jewel in the Crown and would really like to see it again sometime. Think I have an old tape of it somewhere...

(Barb S)Do we see here evidence of (dare I say it?) the dreaded MPB? I think so. But I have chosen to remain in denial. I mean, it could have been the lighting. (MEM)She is the matriarch-in-waiting who keeps her peace until she really needs to bare her claws and fight for her family. And then she knows which battle to choose." I like this interpretation. I never agreed with the "trailer trash" interpretation of this scene. I just thought Moira had reached the boiling point. I hadn't thought about the fact that her mother had, to some extent, been the lid that kept her from boiling over in the past. And given the way Heloise interferes, I can see Moira's need to fight for her family. Also, now that the house and estate are hers and not her brother's, perhaps she feels in a position of greater strength, and so becomes more assertive?

(Barb S) Do we see here evidence of (dare I say it?) the dreaded MPB? Barb, it's funny that you mention this because I noticed that on my initial viewing too. I even collected "evidence" of the LBS in the form of screen captures from two scenes, both shot from overhead. One was, as you mention, as he walks downstairs after the blow-up at the wake. The other is at the start of the movie, when he holds Fraser aloft after rescuing him on the roof. (Karen) Doesn't this seem to say that Edward is becoming more tolerant of other views, like jazz in that last scene and his son striking off on his own? Does this mean that Edward is no longer going to be that eccentric, child-like inventor? Is he not only going to settle down..... I came away believing that Edward acquires some measure of maturity. But on the other hand, "he remembered how to make Mumsie laugh", which may mean (in combination with the lovely dance in the rain) that his childlike charm survives. I hope so, since his energy and enthusiasm are endearing.... they just need to be tempered with more empathy for others and more self-control. And I think he'll always be eccentric, because that has as much to do with his unique intellect as with his childlike emotions. "Moira has a very domineering and rich mother..... She is the matriarch-in-waiting who keeps her peace until she really needs to bare her claws and fight for her family. And then she knows which battle to choose." I was just recently thinking about how Gamma's death was the catalyst that made everything hit the fan. In large part that was because of the terms of her will, but I don't think that was 100% of it. Gamma was the boss, and as long as she was around, she was a stablizing force. Moira really was the "matriarch-in-waiting." But suddenly Gamma was gone. So the Edward/Morris battle was finally free to erupt, instead of just simmering in the background, and Moira was suddenly the matriarch of a family on the verge of falling apart. This was the first time she was ever calling the shots - in fact, it was the only time in the movie that we ever saw her show any type of strength. Since it was a new experience for her, maybe it's not inconceivable that she would have lost her sense of decorum and done it in public. Thanks for the quotes, Karen - I hadn't read those before. (KathyF) And you aren't going to share it with the rest of us??! How did I know that question was going to arise? Here goes..... and, Kathy, I think it does support your left-sided theory (though it was more definitive before I reduced the size of the picture):

(Rika) How did I know that question was going to arise? Perhaps something about the mindset of Droolers. Thanks, Rika!! Your dedication warms the cockles of my heart, or something. I think it does support your left-sided theory (though it was more definitive before I reduced the size of the picture Yes, bigger is always better. There is always room for more study on this matter. A very little will not suffice. The cranking scene consists of 72 or 73 frames, which means that many positions to check out. Very tedious. I keep meaning to watch and see what that white dog is doing in the background, but somehow I keep forgetting... ;-)

(Rika) How did I know that question was going to arise? LOL! Well I seem to back as I left. ;-) Hello, hello, my little firthettes. I'm back. It will take my a while to catch up, as I have much to attend to in the next few days. xxxooo

Sorry I haven't been around. I've been busy with a project that needed completing, and when I come here I get nothing else done...though I did come to lurk from time to time just to try to keep up - and I see you have been busy with a remote while I was remote ;-)! Welcome home, Moon. You've been missed around here! Two thoughts on MLSF: I'm wondering if what happened in the loft can be compared to Edward's success, or lack thereof, with his inventions. When he tries to explore something that interests him, he usually finds someone has gotten there before him and his results are usually fruitless. But his household inventions are more successful like his relationship with Moira. I wonder if the failure to re-route the smoke underground was a foreshadowing that his relationship with Moira was about to go awry? I know Biblical references have been mentioned, but have we discussed that the title "Son of Adam" must be a Biblical reference, too? Craigieland?/Kiloran are like Eden - beautiful and idyllic. Do you think Denis/Fraser are trying to get a handle on the real world and a better understanding of the world through books and leaving for school (sources of knowledge) since they are frustrated with finding it at home? I know I am trying to talk about the book and the film at the same time. But I think the filmmakers were trying to capture the essence of the book even though they added things and changed names.

(Rika) How did I know that question was going to arise? Doesn't it always?;-)Arise is the key word.

Welcome back Moon. Hope you had a nice summer.

Moon!! Welcome back!!

Okay, we seem to be at an impasse here, and this troubles me. Moon, Lora, Barb S and others (forgive me, for failing to get all the names) are back, and we have other people who haven't had a chance to make whatever comments they would like to make. True, the discussion has gone on at length. However, MLSF is a very difficult film, and I feel anyone's comments might be helpful. In our discussion of MLSF, we have bounced around from frame to frame, from beginning to end, without much thought about plot progression or character development. Previous comments are merely our ideas. Personally, I would welcome any new thoughts and comments about this film. To start it off, I'd like to mention the scene wherein Fraser joins Edward after church. Fraser asks Edward if heaven is a place where everyone has a house to live in. Edward says, "heaven is like living in the place you love best, for all eternity." Then Fraser says, "then it would be like staying here, then. Like not dying at all." And Edward says, "Fraser, that's very poetically put, and it's very apt. I was thinking something along those lines, myself. About the nature of home." Then Morris arrives, and sits beside Fraser and Edward, and says, "Norway pine, Sitka spruce." Fraser says, "what?" and Edward says, "commercial softwoods." (and the camera focuses on CF, and his expression conveys the feeling that he has heard this before, many times, and it saddens him.) Then Morris says, "what your father should be planting, instead of his damned moss." Every time I see this, I feel so sad for Edward. Kiloran is his home, and Morris wants to put a price tag on it. It's just heartbreaking.

Oh goodie! I was just mentioning to Evelyn tonight that it appeared our discussion had wound down and I hadn't even gotten to my favorite lines and numerous other little scribblings. I'll be ready to jump back in tomorrow. :)

I know that we are discussing MLSF and I am going to take another look at this tomorrow. Recently watched Apt 0 for the first time and found it a bit weird. However, on advice from some of you watched it again and appreciated it for the fine acting. Looked through the old discussion on this and it is amazing what people come up with and often others opinions just seem to make so much sense !! Anyway, really enjoy reading others POV and admire the dedication that some of you have to the tasks at hand !!

Glad you enjoyed our AZ discussion. That's what we aim for. And sometimes we find things that I'm sure were never intended. ;-)

(KathyF) Every time I see this, I feel so sad for Edward. Kiloran is his home, and Morris wants to put a price tag on it. It's just heartbreaking. I agree with you - Edward's and Fraser's comments are sweet and poignant, and Morris just sits down and stomps all over the sentiment without even realizing he's done so. Some of the implications of this scene did come up early in the discussion. I suggested that it illustrates one reason why Gamma left Kiloran to Edward and Moira. Edward's view of Kiloran was in sync with Gamma's, while Morris's was not. She tried to explain to Morris that Kiloran was a home and not a business, but he didn't get it. On the other hand, Morris's ideas would probably have permitted Kiloran to stay in the family for longer than it did. I know what you mean that we kind of jumped around, but that seems hard to avoid without some sort of imposed structure, since everybody has different things they want to discuss. I was tempted once or twice to try to synthesize the evidence about the Roll in the Moss, because I think there are good arguments on both sides, but I just never got around to doing so.

And sometimes we find things that I'm sure were never intended. ;-) And that's even more fun! I have been told this is s great discussion, but I don't have time now to join in as I would normally. I enjoyed this film. CF looks great and I love the clothing. The close-up of the smile at the end is so dreammy.

(Rika) I was tempted once or twice to try to synthesize the evidence about the Roll in the Moss, because I think there are good arguments on both sides, but I just never got around to doing so. Spill it now...we're listening. One of the charms of this film discussion is that there is no structure. I hate rules;-)

(Rika) I was tempted once or twice to try to synthesize the evidence about the Roll in the Moss, because I think there are good arguments on both sides, but I just never got around to doing so. (Evelyn) Spill it now...we're listening. Maybe this weekend, if I get my stuff done for school in time (I hate the start of the semester.... where did the summer go?). I have to go back through old posts to do it and that'll take some time. Anyone want to collaborate? I was assembling pictures for my final MLSF photo essay when I discovered that I had to do one more intermediate one.... and it's related to the Roll in the Moss issue. We've discussed several aspects of the dinner party scene, but until I started going through the captures that I had from it I didn't appreciate just how shamelessly Edward was flirting with Heloise. Slowing it down made it very vivid. If you'd like to see, here's the link: http://home.mindspring.com/~rika0519/cf/dinner/dinner.html There are quite a few photos, but I've done my best to keep the files small so I hope the download time won't be too bad. One of the charms of this film discussion is that there is no structure. I agree - all the stuff going on at once is fun. If Spring had a threaded discussion board format it would probably be easier to sort out the chaos, but that's life!

Dinner photo essay brilliant, Rika. Thank you. Shirt collar is too big.

Oh, Rika, Rika, Rika-You've done it again. I have several favorite scenes from this film, but the dinner table is my ultimate favorite. The picture just after Edward pulls his hand away from Moira-when he has his hand over his mouth-catch the smirk-v.sexy,almost taunting. I did notice that his gaze never leaves Heloise when I watched, but it is very powerful when you look at it out of context-at a much slower pace. So much goes on in this scene-most of it without words-none needed when CF is at his best.

Great job Rika! Thank you. He is unabashedly flirting with her. Obviously not feeling the least bit uncomfortable whereas I think Heloise is. Which may be the reason he's doing it. Remember he didn't get what he wanted and in his child-like way of thinking he may feel he is getting a bit of his own back. Also he feels he didn't do anything wrong in going after something he wanted as he always has before and therefore he is not at risk and has nothing to lose.

Lovely photo essay, Rika! This scene is one of the most fascinating, IMO. One thing has always bothered me. Right after Heloise says, "You can't be a good man and do a bad thing. You can't have it both ways," Edward looks at her and shakes his head a little, with this strange smirk on his face (and we get a dimple, too). Every time I come to this part, I watch it over and over, trying to figure it out. I suppose Edward is trying to convey "you shouldn't have said that" or something along those lines. But it seems too obvious, in light of the fact that Morris is sitting right next to Heloise and surely would be aware of what was going on between the two of them. Of course, maybe this gets back to the fact that Morris feels secure in his "ownership" of Heloise, and isn't threatened by Edward.

First of all, thanks to KathyF for inviting a continuation of the discussion. It was all I could do to catch up after vacation and hating to offer up "ditto" comments and feeling out of the flow, I was sensing that the MLSF comments were winding down and was not going to fight the tide. By her leave, I go back into the breach... (Fan Pam) He is unabashedly flirting with her. Obviously not feeling the least bit uncomfortable whereas I think Heloise is. Major dilemmas here and a re-watching of segments of the movie definitely called for. My original supposition: he had tried something (and more than what we saw) in the loft and was rebuffed (forcefully--the scream.) They returned. Heloise was agitated. He was contrite (my original interpretation of the removal of his hand from Moira--guilt or discomfort--ok, I'm reaching here.) The problem is, Rika's character study from the dinner table does NOT show contrite. There is no guilt there. Interesting that it would be played/directed that way. We've all commented on Edward's child-like qualities. A child who has had his hand slapped is sullen and/or shame-faced. Edward is neither. It's getting late and brain functions might be moving slowly but I'm building a mental case (indeed!) that there was no hand slap and Edward accomplished more than I originally thought and, from his dinner table demeanor (and later bragging at the funeral) was rather pleased about it. But the scream? (Rika) I was tempted once or twice to try to synthesize the evidence ...but I just never got around to doing so. (Evelyn) Spill it now...we're listening. (Rika) Maybe this weekend, ....Anyone want to collaborate? Not sure what you mean by collaborate, but I find myself about to send my son and DH off to scout camp for the weekend and I have a major chick-flick weekend planned anyway, what do you have in mind?

(KathyF)Edward looks at her and shakes his head a little, with this strange smirk on his face IMO, one of the best CF facial expressions of the film. I watch that little shake of the head over and over each time I watch the film. Getting back to the corporal/lack of corporal punishment scene. I know we discussed this before, but I had another thought on this. I truly don't think he struck the children because of the "next time I'll take my cane...line. When I think of this now I am surprised that it wound up being such a lighthearted scene, almost as though Edward understands the ways of preteen boys. He dismisses them and lets them off with an admonishment, and has them go up to apologize to Mrs. Mc. It's almost as though he was making a big deal of dragging the boys off-just to make a big deal of disciplining them. Yet it is such a contradiction to his obvious discomfort in the sex talk scene with Fraser.

Linda, I agree with your analysis of the punishment scene - but why does it contradict his behavior in the sex talk scene? (KathyF)Edward looks at her and shakes his head a little, with this strange smirk on his face (Linda) IMO, one of the best CF facial expressions of the film. I watch that little shake of the head over and over each time I watch the film. Incidentally, I apologize for the absence of that in the photo essay. I tried. I got several video captures of that second or two, but they were disappointing. I think it's the kind of thing that doesn't reproduce well in stills, because the movement of the head makes it work. (KathyF) Every time I come to this part, I watch it over and over, trying to figure it out. I suppose Edward is trying to convey "you shouldn't have said that" or something along those lines. That's what I think - I see the smirk as one of disapproval. His feelings for her really are interesting - lust and fascination and a significant measure of disdain or disapproval as well. (Barb S) The problem is, Rika's character study from the dinner table does NOT show contrite. There is no guilt there. I agree. And I didn't select those photos to prove a point; they're pretty much representative. I see fear on his face in the first photo, when Edward realizes that Fraser heard them in the moss factory. And he certainly does what he can to shut Fraser up (after all, he has no idea at that point how much more Fraser might have heard or seen). But once the verbal sparring starts with Heloise, he's totally focused on her - intense gazes, teasing smiles, dimples, you name it. Even the way his head is cocked to one side much of the time strikes me as a flirtatious pose. But then let's consider Heloise. When Fraser mentions the lady's scream, she doesn't look guilty or frightened of discovery. She shoots that challenging look at Edward, and contradicts him when he tries to get Fraser to be quiet (provoking Edward's little head-shake that is discussed above). She seems entirely at ease to me, which makes me think that she didn't do anything she's ashamed of. And we heard her say "Stop" (in two languages) in the moss factory. So I think whatever he got, he got without her cooperation. And I don't think he can have gotten that much. If he'd gotten anywhere near an actual roll in the moss that was non-consensual, I can't see how she could sit there calmly and bait him. And that's what she does - she asks all the taunting questions, and she goes out of her way to be affectionate with Morris while Edward just about bores a hole through the two of them with his eyes. So then why is he flirting instead of sulking? Hmmmm. Perhaps he doesn't fully recognize that she's baiting him, and takes it as encouragement. Maybe once she got him to back off, she said some things intended to keep peace in the family, and he chose to read some hope between the lines of her remarks. Maybe he's just really hard to discourage. Maybe the kiss(es) he perhaps did manage to get were enough to make him feel victorious. I don't know. Not sure what you mean by collaborate, but I find myself about to send my son and DH off to scout camp for the weekend and I have a major chick-flick weekend planned anyway, what do you have in mind? A lot of people have offered opinions on what happened in the moss, based on a things they've noticed from several different scenes. I wanted to scan back through the discussion and synthesize all the evidence people offered in one place, because I think a lot of us are still confused about this issue. There'd certainly be some MLSF-watching involved too, to clarify/check things....

(Rika) how shamelessly Edward was flirting with Heloise (Linda) The picture just after Edward pulls his hand away from Moira-when he has his hand over his mouth-catch the smirk-v.sexy,almost taunting. I did notice that his gaze never leaves Heloise when I watched, but it is very powerful This is in my top 2 or 3 scenes, also! It was intense with all the subtleties. (Kathy) Heloise says, "You can't be a good man and do a bad thing. You can't have it both ways," Edward looks at her and shakes his head a little, with this strange smirk on his face (Barb) There is no guilt there. Forgive me if my comments repeat something someone already said... After looking at everyone's commments (unfortunately took my copy back to the video store), it occurred to me that, not only does he not appear to feel guilty, he may actually blame HER for the incident. Maybe he's shaking his head because she's saying he did a bad thing, but in his mind, it was her fault for "egging him on" by kissing Fraser. He might perceive (in his childlike manner), that it had been an invitation for Edward to act on his feelings and make advances. Sort of like a date rapist saying "she was asking for it". I think the knowledge from all my psych courses is failing me now.

(Dorine) ...he may actually blame HER for the incident. Maybe he's shaking his head because she's saying he did a bad thing, but in his mind, it was her fault for "egging him on" by kissing Fraser. Or egging him on by (real or perceived) flirting. I agree with you.

(Dorine) ...he may actually blame HER for the incident. Maybe he's shaking his head because she's saying he did a bad thing, but in his mind, it was her fault for "egging him on" by kissing Fraser. You make a good point, Dorine, and I agree too. However, I find her attitude at the table a bit off balance for someone who might have been in a very uncomfortable situation just hours before. She is almost too cool, calm, and collected. After Edward gets over the shock that Fraser heard something-I find that the two of them seem to be enjoying the sparring-just a bit too much. All this IMHO, of course. Please boss, jump in and give us your favorite lines and scenes from the film. I think we're all looking to chew the fat a little more on this one. We can't seem to let it go.

(Linda) However, I find her attitude at the table a bit off balance for someone who might have been in a very uncomfortable situation just hours before. She is almost too cool, calm, and collected. (Rika) Or egging him on by (real or perceived) flirting. Yes her attitude does seem off considering the circumstances, but I would think she would feel more confident that she could get back at him verbally in the safety of the dining room with Morris and the rest of the family. They are her shield, as such.

(Barb) He was contrite (my original interpretation of the removal of his hand from Moira--guilt or discomfort--ok, I'm reaching here.) I can only relate to this from a personal situation I was involved in. I was Moira reaching out for Edwards hand and Edward pulled away (my ex) because he didn't want the object of his affection who was sitting across the table from us to think that his attentions were not in earnest. He was trying to prove to her that he trully wants her. In my experience when the man is feeling contrite or guilty about something he over compensates to the party he feels he's hurt, obviously Moira. And he just isn't doing that in any way. As I say this is only my opinion because I was in a similar situation. (Rika) Maybe this weekend, ....Anyone want to collaborate? Sure just let me know what you want me to do. (Lindak) Getting back to the corporal/lack of corporal punishment scene. I know we discussed this before, but I had another thought on this. I truly don't think he struck the children because of the "next time I'll take my cane...line. Perhaps he used his hand, because I think he did atleast spank them which would not be as sever as if he used an object. (Dorine) He might perceive (in his childlike manner), that it had been an invitation for Edward to act on his feelings and make advances. Sort of like a date rapist saying "she was asking for it". Edward IMO didn't feel he needed an invitation. He wanted her from the first time he saw her and was just waiting for the chance when they could be alone, invited or not. Neither did he require any encouragement from her, which I don't think she gave him. I also don't think he was blaming her for anything. He knows how much he wanted her, and in reality he knows he was the aggressor and he also was denied, so what is there to blame her for. He was the one who attempted to be alone with her. I think she feels secure because she knows he didn't get anywhere but she wants to let him know that his attentions and aggressive behavior are not acceptable. It boils down to the male ego thing. Although he was denied he wants her to know that he still wants her, which in his opinion is a compliment to her. Also I agree she feels secure with Morris and the rest of the family there. And you know she will never allow the situation to arise where they will be alone again.

(Lindak)I truly don't think he struck the children because of the "next time I'll take my cane...line. (Pam) Perhaps he used his hand, because I think he did at least spank them which would not be as severe as if he used an object. I agree, Pam. You can see the shadow of his arm moving, and you hear the impact - twice. So I think each boy got one whack. When Donald and Fraser leave the room, they're holding their butts as though they hurt a bit, but they also seem pretty amused by the whole thing so it can't have been too bad. I wouldn't be surprised if Edward's hand hurt more than their rear ends. OOH - major chills! This is OT, but I'm listening to a CD of Claudio Arrau playing Beethoven, and "Andante Favori" just started. This is the music Georgiana was playing at Pemberley during "The Look" in P&P2. SIGH.....

(FanPam) he didn't want the object of his affection who was sitting across the table from us to think that his attentions were not in earnest. He was trying to prove to her that he trully wants her. And IMO that's exactly what Edward was doing here. And obviously, judging from Moira's reaction, that's the message she got when he removed his hand. I don't think she would have offered alcohol to the minister if she wasn't trying to somehow diffuse the whole situation. (FanPam) Although he was denied he wants her to know that he still wants her, which in his opinion is a compliment to her. He most certainly hadn't given up, and I'd say he isn't the least bit contrite.

(Lora) have we discussed that the title "Son of Adam" must be a Biblical reference, too? Unless Denis/Fraser slew his brother and went to live in John Steinbeck country, I'm not seeing a connection, and you know how much I love symbolism. Yes, the estate was a world unto itself, but the inhabitants did venture out and Denis/Fraser had contact with many who could "fill in the blanks." ;-) (Lora) But I think the filmmakers were trying to capture the essence of the book even though they added things and changed names. Absolutely, but I think they downplayed Denis' bad boy antics and his deep-seeded problems with the Trinity. (Rika) If Spring had a threaded discussion board format it would probably be easier to sort out the chaos, but that's life! Bite your tongue!! ;-) It might be easier to sort out the chaos, but they're much harder to follow in the long run and an impediment to discussion. After you've been on Yapp, threaded message boards and discussions via email are like going back to the Stone Age IMO. *shivering* (Rika) So then why is he flirting instead of sulking? Hmmmm. Perhaps he doesn't fully recognize that she's baiting him, and takes it as encouragement. Quite right. He thinks she's continuing to flirt with him, instead of what she is actually doing. Ladies, ladies, what do women do best? Get revenge. Heloise is on the offensive. She's trying to expose him for the hypocrite he is. He tried to take liberties with her, his brother-in-law's fiancee, and she's going to get back at him in front of his family. She doesn't think she did anything wrong. Obviously she doesn't know what touching one's lips means or fondling a child. (Rika) Maybe the kiss(es) he perhaps did manage to get were enough to make him feel victorious. I don't know. I'd go with Pam's (?) view of teenage boys' boasting. (Dorine) not only does he not appear to feel guilty, he may actually blame HER for the incident. Maybe he's shaking his head because she's saying he did a bad thing, but in his mind, it was her fault for "egging him on" by kissing Fraser. Absolutely. He feels no guilt. She was the temptress in his mind. I'll go through my notes tomorrow. Am too tired to start anything new now.

(Karen) Quite right. He thinks she's continuing to flirt with him, instead of what she is actually doing. It reminds me of the build-up to Darcy's first proposal in P&P. When he and Elizabeth had their verbal sparring matches, she was constantly firing thinly-veiled poisoned darts in his direction. To him I think it seemed like flirtation. But Darcy had a better excuse for misunderstanding than Edward did, since 99.9999% of the single women in England would have done everything in their power to encourage him. I'll go through my notes tomorrow. Am too tired to start anything new now. (sound of feet tapping impatiently as we wait) :-D

(Karen)Unless Denis/Fraser slew his brother and went to live in John Steinbeck country, I'm not seeing a connection, and you know how much I love symbolism. LOL! You are quite right here. But the title I was refering to is only from the book (even though I was talking about both) and didn't Denis consider himself to be "bad" and be thought of as "bad" because he disappointed his parents a lot (in terms of his views of religion)? (Karen) I think they downplayed Denis' bad boy antics and his deep-seeded problems with the Trinity. Yes, Fraser was not thought of as bad like Denis and they changed the names so the Adam thing couldn't work anymore. I could be stretching the Adam reference in the book, but it seems it would be a lot like Denis to be giving one last poke at his parents here. I have been enjoying all of the discussion from all of you about Edward and Heloise's sparring at the dinner table. I could never understand Heloise not being afraid to talk to Edward about his behavior (even though it is veiled). I thought it was bad editing again. But all of you have made a lot of sense of that dinner table scene (with Moira too). I have re-rented the tape again in order to re-watch and re-listen to that scene (and others). Thanks for all of your insight. And thanks to all the hard working and observant Firthettes who will conquer this confusing movie :-)!

(sound of feet tapping impatiently as we wait) :-D It was that or type up the Hello article (four jpgs ranging from 370-700K each); not fun. Rather than tapping, you might want to work on cloning. ;-) But am now thinking of working on dusting off GSD...

Thanks for all the great insights ladies. This is indeed a confusing movie.

(Karen) It was that or type up the Hello article (four jpgs ranging from 370-700K each); not fun......Rather than tapping, you might want to work on cloning. ;-) But am now thinking of working on dusting off GSD... I sure hope we pay you a good enough salary for everything you do! :-)

(Lora) didn't Denis consider himself to be "bad" and be thought of as "bad" because he disappointed his parents a lot (in terms of his views of religion)? Not just for that reason, but that he acted out solely to gain attention. I know everyone is waiting with baited breath for my favorite lines in the film (ha ha!), so here they are: - "Fraser, liberate your brother, will you?" (Actually, I love that entire scene and, just like Kathy thought the way Fraser said lurked was funny, I feel the same about how he says "the manly art of hunting fish) -"You know how Mrs McIntosh feels about smoking around the house" (Andrew, when the underground flue goes wrong) If we back up to the dynamiting scene, when Gamma and Morris arrive to stop another one of Edward's hare-brained schemes, Edward gets a dressing down not only by Gamma but by Morris as well. All of this is in front of Fraser and the estate workers. Edward tries his best to put a good spin on it, save some face, but Fraser looks upset to me. How do you think he reacts to seeing his father put in his place so publicly? And then, Morris will again criticize the father's lack of business acumen in front of the boy, when they're all sitting on the rock (commercial soft woods). Try looking at the dinner table through another's eyes, Heloise's. She makes a very interesting comment later, when Morris is explaining curling to her. She says, "Ah, it's a game, I see." Game. Boys and their games. Could that be how she views Morris and Edward's actions? Could that explain why she wasn't more upset by the assault, didn't feel it necessary to say anything to Morris, and how she was baiting Edward now?

(Lora)I know Biblical references have been mentioned, but have we discussed that the title "Son of Adam" must be a Biblical reference, too? It reminded me of C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia in which the children are referred to as "sons of Adam and daughters of Eve." It also seems to be a statement about how his father was First (Alpha) Man and how that all changed and when. (Lora)Craigieland?/Kiloran are like Eden - beautiful and idyllic. I agree. It seems that's the point of the discussion after church/before Morris interrupts. They even say they want to live there for eternity. (Lora)Do you think Denis/Fraser are trying to get a handle on the real world and a better understanding of the world through books and leaving for school (sources of knowledge) since they are frustrated with finding it at home? Interesting that you used the word knowledge because Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden for partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil! Isn't Fraser, who has been instructed in good, partaking of the knowledge of evil when he "lurks where the Devil lurks" (the attic)? Maybe his Dad knew what was in those books and wanted his children to stay away. The author also sets several things up as clearly good or evil; black or white. Beethoven is good; jazz is evil. Scots are good; French are evil. Moss is good; commercial softwoods are evil. (Or vice versa, if you agree with Morris.) Are there others? (Lora)I could be stretching the Adam reference in the book, but it seems it would be a lot like Denis to be giving one last poke at his parents here. He was probably very impressed when he first realized his father was named after the #1 guy but during teen rebellion (which I'm not convinced he ever outgrew) he seems to be saying "That may be how Mr. Perfect was but look at how his offspring is." (Karen)Try looking at the dinner table through another's eyes, Heloise's. She makes a very interesting comment later, when Morris is explaining curling to her. She says, "Ah, it's a game, I see." Game. Boys and their games. Could that be how she views Morris and Edward's actions? That's how I view her actions. She has decided to play along and the eye lock between Heloise and Edward is as they are confronting each other in battle. The first one to look away or blink loses. ;-)

(Karen) "You know how Mrs McIntosh feels about smoking around the house" One of my favorites, too! I always love a bad pun (low form of humor, I know). And right before that, Edward says, "Damn and blast!" which I find amusing for some reason. (Karen) If we back up to the dynamiting scene, when Gamma and Morris arrive to stop another one of Edward's hare-brained schemes, Edward gets a dressing down not only by Gamma but by Morris as well. I love the look on MMcD's face right after Gamma says, "and besides, you'll frighten the sheep!" He can't wait to jump in and criticize Edward. When he's finished humiliating Edward in front of everyone, he has this evil smirk. (Caribou) Are there others? Amontillado is good, sherry is evil? (Right before Gamma sticks her tongue out at Fraser, you can hear Morris say, "utter nonsense, Edward. It's Amontillado. My father wouldn't have sweet sherry in this house.")

(Karen) ...when they're all sitting on the rock (commercial soft woods). Has it occurred to anyone just how long it takes trees to grow to the point where they can be cut down and processed? Trees take forever to grow, so commercial soft woods would not be a quick-fix to the financial situation. I doubt they would uproot partially-grown trees to transplant in another location. This would also be an expensive proposition. A long-term practicality possibly, but in the short- term it just wouldn't be financially productive. I wonder if Morris considered this aspect? Obviously, not.

Excellent point, FanPam! Perhaps Morris was not quite the astute businessman we thought. ;-) At least the moss was already there...

I was watching MLSF tonight for the umpteenth time since we started our discussion, and I had a thought about Heloise's letter to Edward. (If someone has already mentioned this, I apologize for bringing it up again.) Why did she write it? I don't think she would have instigated the correspondence. Surely she wouldn't have wanted to open up that can of worms. So apparently Edward had written her, at least once. I also realized that Rika was positively right (way back on Aug. 10), when she said that the catalogue didn't come from Heloise, but had merely picked up the scent from Edward's letter in the same packet. (Somehow I either misread Rika's post, or didn't comprehend what she was saying.) That's why Moira was sniffing the letter and then looking at the wrapper. She was wondering why it should smell like Heloise. Well, that's one less scene for me to be confused about. Duh! (slapping forehead)

(Karen) - "Fraser, liberate your brother, will you?" (Actually, I love that entire scene LOL....that is my favorite line! I think it gets me because he says it so casually...he's doesn't seem annoyed or surprised. It also remind me of a friend's friend who went fishing, went to cast the line, and ended up with the hook on the side of his face. It doesn't sound all that amusing I suppose just reading about it, but the picture of it was hysterical! (Kathy) Why did she write it? I don't think she would have instigated the correspondence. Surely she wouldn't have wanted to open up that can of worms. So apparently Edward had written her, at least once. Good question. I had actually wondered about that myself.

My favorite scene is when Edward is trying to impress Heloise with the importance of moss and Fraser keeps interrupting. He then tells Fraser to go away because he's boring Heloise. Solid performance by all three actors; brilliant dialogue timing.

(Evelyn) My favorite scene is when Edward is trying to impress Heloise with the importance of moss and Fraser keeps interrupting. He then tells Fraser to go away because he's boring Heloise. Solid performance by all three actors; brilliant dialogue timing Do you mean while they're out in the moss field or in the loft? (don't have a copy now to go reference exactly). My other favorite scene is the part where they are walking outside, where Edward is talking to Heloise and he pushes Fraser away behind him and Fraser pops up on the other side. Persistent little bugger! LOL

(KathyF)Amontillado is good, sherry is evil? (Right before Gamma sticks her tongue out at Fraser, you can hear Morris say, "utter nonsense, Edward. It's Amontillado. My father wouldn't have sweet sherry in this house.") Good one, Kathy. Morris couldn't let anything that Edward said go without contradiction. (FanPam)Has it occurred to anyone just how long it takes trees to grow to the point where they can be cut down and processed? Trees take forever to grow, so commercial soft woods would not be a quick-fix to the financial situation. Have just consulted local, resident technical type (LRTT).:-) The Norweigian Pine and the Sitka spruce that Morris was suggesting would have been grown in pots in a nursery for the first five years and then transplanted to a field. They originate from colder places than Scotland so, with Scotland's comparitively mild climate and rain, they would have been ready to harvest in six to ten years. As you said, Pam, definitely not a quick fix but not a horribly long investement. Because these were soft woods, they take less time to grow and harvest than the hard woods. It is not uncommon for a farmer to plant a field of walnut trees(hard wood) when a child is born and then harvest them to pay for the college education. Given the number of children, that would have been a good plan for Edward.;-)

Caribou, thanks for the hardwood vs. softwood report. So Morris did know what he was talking about, as long as the estate could have hung on for those six to ten years. (Dorine) My other favorite scene is the part where they are walking outside, where Edward is talking to Heloise and he pushes Fraser away behind him and Fraser pops up on the other side. Persistent little bugger! LOL I love that one too. I like it better than the scene that follows in the loft, because (although I agree with Evelyn that it's wonderfully acted) I hate that Edward's so cruel to Fraser. (Kathy) Why did she write it? I don't think she would have instigated the correspondence. Surely she wouldn't have wanted to open up that can of worms. So apparently Edward had written her, at least once. Kathy, I'm glad you brought that up because I've wondered about it too. I agree with your analysis - he probably wrote to her first. And I guess that's another indication (as in our discussion of the dinner party) of just how hard he is to discourage. That's why Moira was sniffing the letter and then looking at the wrapper. She was wondering why it should smell like Heloise. And I think there's another indication that the catalog wasn't from Heloise (which I didn't even think to mention before) in the scene when the mail arrives. If the catalog were from Heloise, Fraser would probably have said something like, "Oh, it's from Auntie Heloise - and it smells like her too!" instead of just remarking on the scent. But even more to the point, after Fraser mentions the scent, Edward sniffs the rest of the mail, sticks the bundle in his pocket, and says, "Don't be ridiculous." If the scent came from the catalog, which came from Heloise, why the defensive reaction?

(Karen) If we back up to the dynamiting scene, when Gamma and Morris arrive to stop another one of Edward's hare-brained schemes, Edward gets a dressing down not only by Gamma but by Morris as well. I like this too, but it always makes me uncomfortable to watch. My favorite scene(s) besides the dinner, the funeral, and when Edward walks into the bedroom to apologize to Moira. I love the look on his face when he says I've been a child. It makes me want to hug him, among other things(that's not unusual) and tell him it will all turn out right in the end.

(Kathy) Why did she write it? I don't think she would have instigated the correspondence. Surely she wouldn't have wanted to open up that can of worms. So apparently Edward had written her, at least once. Never actually got the impression that he wrote her. Always thought that she did it to clear the air because they would be meeting at family gatherings and did not want to be put in the position again, and was in a subtle way telling him to drop any aspirations he may have in that regard. Also attempting to pave the way for harmony when she and Morris do go there. Pam

(Linda) My favorite scene(s) besides the dinner, the funeral, and when Edward walks into the bedroom to apologize to Moira. I love the look on his face when he says I've been a child. It makes me want to hug him, among other things(that's not unusual) and tell him it will all turn out right in the end. Linda, I hope you realize I wouldn't have done this for just anybody the day before the semester started!

(Caribou) The author also sets several things up as clearly good or evil; black or white. Beethoven is good; jazz is evil. Scots are good; French are evil. Moss is good; commercial softwoods are evil This attitude of good and bad comes right from the book and it was something that Denis found unacceptable about his parents and grandmother, why he considered them "bigots," their intolerant attitudes toward everything. I had this portion marked: At Craigielands, in music as in everything else, there was a right and a wrong....The idea of black and white was applied to the arts without inhibition and this as much as anything else caused me to question the Craigielands creed. My mother's first judgment of people, as well as plays, books, music, was to decide whether they were good or bad. 'But is he a good man?' she would ask in perplexity when someone had been describing the nature of Ramsay McDonald, then a rising star in politics....Hamlet was an enigma, he seemed to be good and bad at the same time. The Greek myths were very puzzling because they didn't seem to distinguish between good and bad at all: all Gods behaved frightfully badly but they were Gods and so surely meant to be good. The B ble was much safer ground: here it was always possible to distinguish the good from the bad--except, possibly, in King Soloman and Pontius Pilate. With such pellucid simplicity did my mother view the world. (Kathy) Rika was positively right...when she said that the catalogue didn't come from Heloise, but had merely picked up the scent from Edward's letter in the same packet....That's why Moira was sniffing the letter and then looking at the wrapper. She was wondering why it should smell like Heloise. ... Duh! (slapping forehead) Slapping forehead here too. You've all convinced me of this point as well. The book would probably support it too, as Denis wrote for music catalogues himself. (Linda) My favorite scene...when Edward walks into the bedroom to apologize to Moira. I love the look on his face when he says I've been a child. It makes me want to hug him, among other things(that's not unusual) and tell him it will all turn out right in the end. I much prefer them dancing in the rain. I guess contrite isn't all that appealing to me. Besides, he looks rather dorky in those pyjamas. Or maybe if he were only wearing the bottoms, I might have a different opinion. ;-) (Pam) Always thought that she did it to clear the air because they would be meeting at family gatherings and did not want to be put in the position again, and was in a subtle way telling him to drop any aspirations he may have in that regard. Also attempting to pave the way for harmony when she and Morris do go there. Very well put. She was being diplomatic, but he undoubtedly expected something else by the way he reacted to its contents. We've come down very hard on Edward's childish behavior, but if you look at the bonspiel scene, it is Morris who instigates the situation, not Edward. Morris has been betting with others (estate workers, guests, whoever) throughout, but when Edward suggests a bet, it is Morris who makes it ugly, more significant than had been proposed.

Oh, Rika thank you so much. It's as if you read my mind. Check out topic 160, and look at the plumb assignment I may have picked for the coffee wenches.:-))) I will have pleasant dreams tonight!

(Karen)he looks rather dorky in those pyjamas. Or maybe if he were only wearing the bottoms, I might have a different opinion. ;-) Okiedorky, boss have it your way, but I might have a different opinion if he were only wearing the tops:-)) (Karen)We've come down very hard on Edward's childish behavior, but if you look at the bonspiel scene, it is Morris who instigates the situation IMO, it is Morris who instigates the ugliness-most of the time. Yes, Edward is childish, but it seems to be an accepted way of life at Kiloran-all of his experiments and what have you. It's once Morris arrives on the scene that all of his behavior, (things that made people laugh and enjoy) becomes a source of contention and ridicule.

(Pam) Never actually got the impression that he wrote her. Always thought that she did it to clear the air because they would be meeting at family gatherings and did not want to be put in the position again, and was in a subtle way telling him to drop any aspirations he may have in that regard. Also attempting to pave the way for harmony when she and Morris do go there. I've been away from the DVD and the computer for two days, but I've been thinking about MLSF. I believe you are probably correct on this point, because how could Edward write Heloise, without Morris knowing it? Still, it makes me wonder why she would write him at all. Why not just wait until they meet again and hope he's given up by that time? (Karen) I much prefer them dancing in the rain. Me, too! I'm a sucker for happy endings. (Although the note at the end about them being forced to sell Kiloran somewhat diffuses the happiness.) (Linda) Yes, Edward is childish, but it seems to be an accepted way of life at Kiloran-all of his experiments and what have you.It's once Morris arrives on the scene that all of his behavior, (things that made people laugh and enjoy) becomes a source of contention and ridicule. Yes, everyone seems to turn from Edward to Morris for guidance, even Edward's children. That had to be galling.

(Karen quoting Son of Adam) At Craigielands, in music as in everything else, there was a right and a wrong....The idea of black and white was applied to the arts without inhibition... Excellent passage! We usually uncover all of the messages if enough of us dig long enough! :-) So, do you think Denis became like his mother or is he able to see the gray areas? (KathyF)(Although the note at the end about them being forced to sell Kiloran somewhat diffuses the happiness.) The movie would lead you to believe they had to sell because of Edward's foolishness. But, what if Gamma didn't leave them the money that she had used to keep it going. What if the estate went to them but the money went to someone else?

(Caribou) The movie would lead you to believe they had to sell because of Edward's foolishness. But, what if Gamma didn't leave them the money that she had used to keep it going. What if the estate went to them but the money went to someone else? In some web surfing, I found that the family endowed scholarships at the school the boys all attended (Loretto).

(Karen) I much prefer them dancing in the rain. I guess contrite isn't all that appealing to me. Besides, he looks rather dorky in those pyjamas. Or maybe if he were only wearing the bottoms, I might have a different opinion. ;-) I adore the line reading on "I've been a child," and I guess I'm fine with contrite (mostly because of the depth of feeling in his eyes). As to the PJ's, no question that removal of top (or bottom, as Linda suggested) would improve the look ;-P. I believe he's in the same PJ's in the dancing in the rain scene. Speaking of which, here ya go, boss -

Thanks for the lovely pics, Rika. But don't you just wish he would unbutton a few buttons. ;-)

Yes, that would be very nice!

Thanks for pictures Rika. Great comments ladies.

(Rika)I believe he's in the same PJ's in the dancing in the rain scene. Just to clarify my position on the PJ's...I wasn't looking at the PJ's. I was admiring that beautiful, sexy face as he delivers that "I've been a child" line.

I love the pajamas myself, although he could remove either the top or the bottoms as the mood struck him and you wouldn't hear me complain. :)

(Linda) I was admiring that beautiful, sexy face as he delivers that "I've been a child" line. You and me both. I didn't really register what he was wearing. (Elizabeth)I love the pajamas myself, although he could remove either the top or the bottoms as the mood struck him and you wouldn't hear me complain. :) Or both. (Hey, a girl can dream.)

I have so many favorite scenes from this movie, it's difficult to pick any one as being my most favorite. Among my favorites is the Rotary Screen Mark III scene. The sad look on Edward's face, and then when Moira looks so angry and Fraser picks up on it... just always gets to me. And it doesn't hurt that CF looks great in the suspenders. Of course, I love all the stair scenes, too. :-) (Rika) Or both. (Hey, a girl can dream.) Amen, sister!! And thanks again for all your great screen captures!

Kathy, I'm with you - I love that scene (and the suspenders). The progression of emotion on Edward's face is particularly wonderful - a delighted smile at the first sight of Heloise which then turns wistful, then melancholy, and then to frustration. In fact, I've got a series of screen caps that show the progression - I won't impose them on everybody, but here's one just for you, Kathy!

Thanks, Rika! :-)

I have finally gotten around to re-watching MLSF and am 3/4's through it, but I have to say I am watching it this time with "new eyes" because of all the insights and observations of all of you who do such a great job of discussing, screen capturing, and analyzing this very confusing movie. Last time I posted I think I got a scene in the wrong sequence, but this time I've found some things I didn't see at all the other many times I watched it! Someone may have mentioned this, but talk about CF and his socks, the film is set in Argyll! And one of my favorite lines is Elsbeth's to Fraser when they are talking about Daedalus and Icarus, "Don't use language like that...swimming trunks (as she shakes her head in amused/mock? disgust)." Also this viewing I suddenly noticed that the piles of boxes on the stairway up to the attic and in the storage closet are marked "Pettigrew" and are probably a surplus of stock from the moss factory that are not being sold for lack of demand. So Uncle Morris is right that when he says "the accounts are in shambles - a pittance" in terms of income. Planting softwoods from the birth of the first child would have been a better investment. I noticed that the taller boy must be the older child, though not as precocious as Fraser, because he is allowed to accompany the men on the hunt. He is in a cap and coat holding the leash of one of the dogs. Fraser, the girls, and Finley stay at home. I noticed Uncle Crawford falls asleep during Heloise's first cello performance for the family, and his wife flicks his neck to wake him up! (heehee) For the first time, I noticed that when Fraser, Edward, and Heloise go on the outside tour of the moss being dried by the local townspeople, Fraser laughs nervously in front of Heloise when his dad tries to talk like them. I think Fraser is just as embarrassed over his dad's behavior (but rightly so) as Edward is over his son getting in his way! But young Fraser can see what a fool his dad is being in front of Heloise whereas Fraser is innocent in his behavior ("Fraser's a child"). Also before Heloise arrives, Fraser still respects and admires his dad. After the dynamiting scene (love that line, "There'll be no more blasting today.") and Gamma and Morris show up and Edward is berated, Fraser is upset for his dad and tells him in the next scene that "Andrew Burns says it's a very good idea." But what Andrew actually says (to the children) when Gamma and Morris arrive, "Master Morris, a right hard-nosed bugger and if I know Uncle Morris there'll be no more of this dynamiting nonsense. He'll not begin to see his inheritance blown to pieces." So Fraser tries to protect his father and after saying that Andrew liked the idea he also asks about Uncle Morris and his dad says that he lives far away and shows up once in a blue moon. When Fraser asks what a hard-nosed bugger and a blue moon are, his dad doesn't answer. Instead he starts with the dog talk and misses an opportunity of communicating with his very inquisitive son. Also, maybe someone already asked this, but where is Fraser's fishing pole after he finds the choker. He had it when he was outside and near the Hairy Man. But when he comes off the ladder from the loft and picks up the choker he finds on the main floor he doesn't have his fishing pole. Reminds me of Sarah Hugh's present from her class in FP. Where does it go?

(Lora) Fraser is upset for his dad and tells him in the next scene that "Andrew Burns says it's a very good idea." But what Andrew actually says (to the children) when Gamma and Morris arrive, "Master Morris, a right hard-nosed bugger and if I know Uncle Morris there'll be no more of this dynamiting nonsense. He'll not begin to see his inheritance blown to pieces." So Fraser tries to protect his father I've wondered why Fraser said Andrew thought it was a good idea. I'd never considered that Fraser might be trying to protect Edward by lying to him. where is Fraser's fishing pole after he finds the choker. He had it when he was outside and near the Hairy Man. But when he comes off the ladder from the loft and picks up the choker he finds on the main floor he doesn't have his fishing pole. Reminds me of Sarah Hugh's present from her class in FP. Where does it go? I never thought about it, but now I will. LOL Sara's present! One of those never-to-be-answered questions that annoys the daylights out of me every time I watch FP.

(Lora)Reminds me of Sarah Hugh's present from her class in FP. Where does it go? (Kathy)One of those never-to-be-answered questions that annoys the daylights out of me every time I watch FP. Another hole:How does she pay for the taxi when she's empty-handed.

(Evelyn)Another hole:How does she pay for the taxi when she's empty-handed. That gets me every time.

And who is driving the taxi when she and the cabbie are sitting on the hood, er, bonnet? Or am I hallucinating, and it isn't really moving?

Great observations, Lora! I noticed Uncle Crawford falls asleep during Heloise's first cello performance for the family, and his wife flicks his neck to wake him up! (heehee) Wow, I'm going to have to go check that. I'm so mesmerized by watching Edward watch Heloise that I don't tend to notice anything else in that scene. On Fraser trying to protect Edward, I'm glad you mentioned that because it's very sweet. Fraser is a very perceptive boy - early in the movie he seems very aware of, and concerned about, his dad's feelings, and then after his break with Edward that seems to transfer to his mother.

(Lora)Reminds me of Sarah Hugh's present from her class in FP. Where does it go? (Kathy)One of those never-to-be-answered questions that annoys the daylights out of me every time I watch FP. (Evelyn) Another hole:How does she pay for the taxi when she's empty-handed. Have always wondered about these things too.

You forget, she's wearing penny loafers. The money is in her shoes.

(Karen) You forget, she's wearing penny loafers. The money is in her shoes. LOL! For sure, it wasn't in her bosom.

(Kathy) LOL! For sure, it wasn't in her bosom. So very true. LOL! But will make sure next viewing.

I'm not sure if we're done with MLSF or not, but things seem to be quieting down. Before we finish, I have one more photo essay, which is based on the wealth of wonderful close-ups of CF as Edward Pettigrew. It was hard to choose, and I apologize in advance if your favorite isn't included. I've already posted a few of these but most of them are new. Anyway, if you'd like to see "The Many Faces of Edward Pettigrew", here's the URL: http://home.mindspring.com/~rika0519/cf/closeups/closeups.html

Yummy! Thanks, Rika!!

Nice Rika! My favorites are the dinner scene and the last scene. Thanks!

Be-yew-ti-ful! Thanks, Rika.

Rika, beautiful work. Your photos have made this a very memorable film discussion. Before we finish, just let me say I have totally enjoyed the discussions here. I have come away with so many things that would have escaped me had we not done this. So many comments inspired me to go back and watch again and again. Thanks, ladies, for a wild and interesting August.

Thank you so much ladies for a wonderful first-time film discussion. It was thoroughly enjoyable and made subsequent viewings far more interesting. Thank you so much for all your lovely pictures Rika. Everything was great!

Linda and Pam, I want to second those comments. I'll never watch MLSF again without thinking about our discussion! Thoroughly enjoyable!!

Ok then, Wot's next?

Linda, as usual you took the words right out of my mouth! By the way, would a GWAPE group read be something we could do? After we get the green light, of course, and after interested people have had a chance to get the book.

(Rika)After we get the green light, of course, Si, Si but, of course, only after the green light. Sounds like an interesting idea to me.

Rika, I've been reading GWAPE and I'm trying to picture ODB in this film. It sound like another brooding, aloof piece again. I was hoping for the SP/TH role with Gwynnie so that he could really show his stuff and get the exposure he deserves!

Hello people. Just thought I'd join in and say The latest film I've seen with CF in is THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING ERNEST....I thought it was excellent...really funny, and just my type of film! I've seen the usuals with him in: Bridget Jones Diary; Pride and Prejudice; Shakespeare In Love; Conspiracy.....and as I have been writing that list I have realised that they are nearly all my favourite films......how did that happen I wonder??? ;) well, there yo go, thats my contribution to this drool conference. Might join in later (if I can find this conference again 'cos there are sooo many Colin Firth conversations......he is a popular one!)

(Aimee) The latest film I've seen with CF in is THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING ERNEST....I thought it was excellent...really funny, and just my type of film! Mine too. Can't wait for the DVD. Yes indeed is a popular one!!!

yeah, I tried to get my boyfriend to go see it with me because I wanted to see it again, but he wanted to go see 'Signs'.....nevermind, my dad said he wants to see it so He'll take me. I have just been watching 'Pride & Prejudice' (yet again) and there is something I noticed about CF's horse! well, at the beginning when we first see him and Bingley riding up, Darcey's horse appears to be black, but on closer inspection it is actually brown. To me, that looks like colour symbolism reflecting Darcey's background, and how Lizzy sees it blacker than it is at first. Now, if your still not convinced, this is a bit more beleivable: After Darcey writes the letter to tell Lizzy of the truth, and the appearence of his character also changes for the better, we now see him on a white horse! Anyone else see what I mean? anyway, got to go now....I'm on the school computers. P.S. just started reading the book- I've been meaning to read it for ages. Bye!

Aimee, the black(brown)-horse, white-horse theory is fun but there's one small problem. When he returns to Hertfordshire at the end, he's back on the dark horse again (and Bingley has a white horse, as he did at the beginning). I hope you enjoy the book - it's my favorite novel. If you want to discuss it further we should probably move this to the Darcy Drool topic.

Very true. Aimee, we have all sorts of specialized topics here at Drool and this one, called Darcy Drool, is for P&P/Darcy exclusively: http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/read/drool/112/new On this topic 158, we conduct discussions of specific Firth films and, at times, people talk about others when they don't want to disrupt the General Colin topic on 163.

I didn't notice about the change of horse again at the end- thats a shame...it was a nice idea...(I'm glad someone understood me though!) I might check out the darcey drool conferecne...thanx.

Anybody up for a film discussion during January? I hope BarbS hasn't put a Forget on this topic. ;-)

Huh? Who? Me?! No way...it does, after all, bear HIS name in the title! ;-P But since this may be shaping up to be a test, maybe I better go try to remember what all I forgot (anyone who sees me wandering around aimlessly may thump me upside the head.) Oh, and the answer is yes.

(Karen)Anybody up for a film discussion during January? Allways - though I have no idea, which film you will choose (perhaps TIOBE?). Anyway - do you ever return to some of the movies, that were discussed years ago? There seem to be some names in the old discussions, that I haven't seen recently, and vice versa.

Count me in!

I'm game! I'll buy new batteries for the old remote, just for the occasion!

Rather than revisit the old movies, there are still many which haven't been discussed even once. Let me see if I can construct the list of possibilities again: Another Country Camille 1919 Lost Empires Out of the Blue Master of the Moor The Deep Blue Sea Circle of Friends The Widowing of Mrs Holroyd Shakespeare in Love Secret Laughter of Women Donovan Quick L'dum (not officially, but have already talked about enough) BJD (not sure if should be on list, as is ongoing like P&P) Conspiracy TIOBE That should be it, except for very minor appearances in a few things

We promised Esbee that we would do SIL right aft MLSF. And you're gonna make me mad if you discuss Camille...*cough, cough*

I'm in! Personally I am in the mood for SLOW, DQ, or TIOBE. Though is it too soon for TIOBE? It's not available everywhere overseas, right? And the VHS version is still priced for the rental market, I think.

DQ,please...

I'm up for anything, except the dreaded L'dum , which I will admit I have taped over.

I'll be happy to discuss anything but SIL would be fun I think.

(Lisa)I'm up for anything, except the dreaded L'dum , which I will admit I have taped over. I second that; royal waste of time.I haven't taped over it....yet. But I know some long-time members of Drool who did. SLOW is a close second.

Count me in! I'd vote for DQ or SIL.

SIL or DQ (as long as the person who could translate some of the dialogue is still around.)

I cast my vote for SLOW or DQ since they both have large amounts of CF screen time.

SIL, SLOW or DQ.... all sound good to me. Wouldn't mind AC or Conspiracy either.

Damn, I just voted, must have hit the wrong button! Any of these....are ok, but the ones I don't have are AC and SLOW. Is it an easy one to find and buy online? Did SIL get promised as next already?

Oh, I long for a movie discussion! My choice would be SIL (even though he's not in every scene, there is so much good stuff in the one's he's in!). SLOW and DQ would be excellent choices, but I don't own those and have never seen them at Blockbuster. But would they be made available through the Bucket? I seem to remember a discussion about making them more readily available, if they haven't been made so already...will have to check that out at the Bucket. Count me in!

Make that "Bucket Boutique" and "there is so much good stuff in the ones (scenes) he's in" And I didn't see DQ or SLOW on the Boutique list :-( Would we be able to get them in DVD form? We have become spoiled with the many visuals that enhance our discussions thanks to our DVDiva :-)! There are plenty of SIL DVD's available for purchase or rental!

The Bucket's Boutique only has links into amazon, but if people (I mean persons) want to participate, there are means of ensuring they have the study materials. ;-)

No access to 1919,OOTB,DBS,WOMH. COF and SIL (not enough screen time),no interest in discussing Gwynnie or Minnie(Will get mouth guard for teeth gritting at Hope Springs viewings). Could summon enthusiasm for AC(intensity), Camille(vulnerability), SLOW (AFG), DQ (cervantes comparisons), BJD (yowzer),Conspiracy (serious acting chops), L'dum (joke factor). Lost Empires would be my preference.

(Kathleen)Lost Empires would be my preference. Mine too, but can't afford DVD right now.And only own lousy VHS. SIL (not enough screen time) But best acting of the lot.

Lost Empires would be my least favourite: too long! I would love to do Marter of the Moor, but I don't think many have seen it. My own tape is missing the very begining. Have we done BJD? It feels like we've been discussing it forever. ;-) SLOW would not be bad to do. I don't know how much time I will have, but I will always contribute. :-D

(Rika)I'm in! Personally I am in the mood for SLOW, DQ, or TIOBE. Though is it too soon for TIOBE? It's not available everywhere overseas, right? You took the words right out of my mouth (imagin Meat Loaf singing). I don't have LE and am waiting for it to be available in R2. As Moon Dreams, I would also love to do Master of the Moor (really, really good). I love SIL, also nice to choose. To sum it up - almost anything goes!

(Kathleen)Lost Empires would be my preference. (Evelyn) Mine too, but can't afford DVD right now.And only own lousy VHS. It makes your incredible financial support of Spring Drool ever so much more precious. Bless you. :) From the postings, it looks like DQ will be our next film discussion. Any objections, comments, concerns, grumblings or similar? OK, now as to starting dates? One week or two? 10 days?

For my .02, two weeks will be good. Maybe sometime the week of the 6th?

(Karen)From the postings, it looks like DQ will be our next film discussion. If this is the case, and anyone has dialogue that they simply cannot fathom, I would be happy to translate. - Or can most of you work it out!? Perhaps you could email me in advance of the discussion and I could list them in one post? - What do you think, Karen?

You will be very needed, Janet, thanks! (Karen), From the postings, it looks like DQ will be our next film discussion. Any objections, comments, concerns, grumblings or similar? Grumblings: Really? I thought SLOW had it. ;-) No discussion of DQ would be complete without reading Don Quixote, IMO. Are the cliff notes on line? ;-)

(Moon)Grumblings: Really? I thought SLOW had it. ;-) Me, too. I was hoping for SLOW...lots of nooks and crannies to explore in that one and easier to understand. Not to mention that Matthew Field is AFG. Well so is DQ...It's a very hard one to call. But I really did think SLOW was in there for the win. IMHO, of course.

(Moon)No discussion of DQ would be complete without reading Don Quixote, IMO. Are the cliff notes on line? ;-) Good point Moon, but I swear, there ought to be some kind of freaking prize for ODB. As a result of this fascination (obsession?) I've read all of Jane Austen, know more about Vermeer than a sane person would think necessary, have read Wilde and now am googling for Don Quixote. Huge Gnat is looking better and better from a fandom perspective, my gawd, he's much less work! Point to all this being...found a link (got this to work once, can I luck into it again?)... http://www.adh.brighton.ac.uk/schoolofdesign/MA.COURSE/LDon02.html ...and it looks like the first place I will plumb. The synopsis of the story begins promisingly enough (is that a word?) A fifty year old `lean bodied' and `thin faced' rural gentleman... The age for ODB is certainly off and he is not so thin faced that the dimples don't show, but he's got that "lean bodied" thing down. And I vote for two weeks.

(Linda) It's a very hard one to call. Well, Tom... ;-) No, the vote was close (8-6), with DQ edging out. Lots of "I don't cares" or "no preferences." Remember, I'm from Chicago and we know how to count our votes here. Is local strength. (Moon) I thought SLOW had it. ;-) I should've expected this of someone from Florida. ;-) I do have the Cliffs Notes for Don Quixote, but you can read the Sparks notes online here, if you want to get into it: http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/donquixote/ Another reason why this may more even more appropriate, is I saw a trailer of the upcoming documentary for the making of Terry Gilliam's Don Quixote film, one that has been beset by difficulties and resists being made. Looked quite funny and would be of course very Pythonesque. ;-) Re: Janet's translations of Clivespeak If you just want to post them here, during the discussion, it would be fine. If everyone who wants to participate and *will* participate has the viewing materials, then the week of Jan 6 is fine. If however these materials need to be acquired, then it we might want to hold off a bit longer for mailing purposes, etc.

(Karen) Remember, I'm from Chicago and we know how to count our votes here. Will resist temptation to do recount and look for anyone voting "Chicago" style (more than once...) ;-D Jan. 6 hokay fine with me.

Since I was a tad too late to vote (my own fault..too busy with tape and wrapping paper)and I'd hate to think that any grumblings may be due to me ;), may I submit a compromise? Could we do DQ in January and SLOW in February?

Are you from Missouri? ;-) We don't do formal film discussions every month. Much too time consuming. Next time, there will be another ballot.

(ADA)Could we do DQ in January and SLOW in February? Oh, now that sounds like a very good idea. It's going to be a long, cold few months, and two discussions would be nice, more than nice. So, I'm casting my New Jersey, Chicago style, Florida counted vote for SLOW at least sometime in the near future.

I dunno, Karen - are you sure you counted the hanging chadd correctly? ;-) Seriously, DQ is fine with me. I'll just have to restrain myself from bringing in stuff from the Brian Stokes Mitchell "Man of La Mancha" revival that I saw not long ago.

I was an "I don't knower" but DQ is fine with me. I have that one. I will need to procure SLOW before a discussion on that. **ducking for cover** I vote not to do the discussions to so quickly after each other. I found it hard to keep up with MLSF and once I was lost....that was it, I could never catch back up. It was a lot of work to follow all the posts. Actually I wouldn't mind at all LE sometime, based on the comments about it here, but I agree, the purchase of those DVDs is a big expense.

(Moon) I thought SLOW had it. ;-) I should've expected this of someone from Florida. ;-) ROTF! But we had a great influence on that last "vote." ;-) But truly, Miami is NOT like the rest of Florida. We are international, cosmopolitan, espresso is available everywhere.;-D Thanks for the links. I don't have time to read that wonderful book now, but I highly recommend it to those who have not yet had the pleasure.

Just so no one thinks they're at all deficient in some way because they can't understand so much of the dialogue in DQ, here's a very funny bit from Bill Bryson's book "Notes from a Small Island" about when he went to Glasgow. Although an American, he lived in Britain for 20 years, traveled extensively and even had a home for the last 7 years in rural Yorkshire.Fancying a drink and a sit-down, I wandered inside. It was a dark place, and battered, and there were only two other customers, a pair of men sitting side by side at the bar drinking in silence. There was no one behind the bar. I took a stance at the far end of the counter and waited for a bit, but no one came in. I drummed my fingers on the counter and puffed my cheeks and made assorted puckery shapes with my lips the way you do when you are waiting. I cleaned my nails with a thumbnail and puffed my cheeks some more, but still no one came. Eventually, I noticed one of the men at the bar eyeing me. "Hae ya nae hook ma dooky?" he said. "I'm sorry?" I replied. "He'll nay be doon a mooning." He hoicked his head in the direction of the back room. "Oh, ah," I said and nodded sagely, as if that explained it. I noticed that they were both still looking at me. "D'ye hae a hoo and a poo?" said the first man to me. "I'm sorry?" I said. "D'ye hae a hoo and a poo?" he repeated. It appeared that he was a trifle intoxicated. I gave a small, apologetic smile and explained that I came from the English-speaking world. "D'ye nae hae in May?" the man went on. "If ye dinna dock ma donny." "Doon in Troon they croon in June," said his mate, then added, "Wi' a spoon." "Oh, ah." I nodded thoughtfully again, pushing my lower lip out slightly, as if it were all very nearly clear to me now. Just then, to my small relief, the barman appeared, looking unhappy and wiping his hands on a tea towel. "Fuckin' muckle fucket in the fuckin' muckle," he said to the two men, and then to me in a weary voice, "Ah hae the noo." I couldn't tell if it was a question or a statement. "A pint of Tennent's, please," I said hopefully. He made an impatient noise, as if I were avoiding his question. "Hae ya nae hook ma dooky?" "I'm sorry?" "Ah hae the noo," said the first customer, who apparently saw himself as my interpreter. I stood for some moments with my mouth open, trying to imagine what they were saying to me, wondering what mad impulse had bidden me to enter a pub in a district like this, and said in a quiet voice, "Just a pink of Tennant's, I think." The barman sighed heavily and got me the pint. A minute later, I realized that what they were saying to me was that this was the worst pub in the world in which to order lager, since all I would get was a glass of warm soapsuds, dispensed from a gasping, reluctant tap, and that really I should flee with my life while I could.

I am moving these missing posts here from the old server. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 701 of 718: Dorine (gomezdo) Fri, Dec 27, 2002 (12:22) 1 lines LOL! I'm actually in the middle of reading this book. Haven't gotten to this part yet. He had a similar problem somewhere in the English countryside as well. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 702 of 718: Evelyn (lafn) Fri, Dec 27, 2002 (18:41) 13 lines Karen)From the postings, it looks like DQ will be our next film discussion. (Janet)If this is the case, and anyone has dialogue that they simply cannot fathom, I would be happy to translate. - Or can most of you work it out!? Not only do we need you for the translation, but this is a v. political film and it helps to have someone with current British political savy around. I am not acquainted with all the British politicos outside of the PM. Could we do DQ in January and SLOW in February? Pl do SLOW (AKA "Say My Name...")when I'm away. Or you'll risk hearing a lot of flak from me;-))..Baaaaad movie. I too would like to do LE sometime after we all financially recover.I know it's long, but it belongs in the column of projects that ODB can be proud of. Thanks Boss for the Don Quijote notes and the hilarious Bill Bryson episode. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 703 of 718: Janet (janet2) Fri, Dec 27, 2002 (21:11) 6 lines Re Bill Brysen Book I don't know what part of Scotland he was in, but I think he was making extensive use of poetic licence. - That was unlike any Scottish dialect (never mind Glaswegian) that I have ever come across!!! Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 704 of 718: Karen (KarenR) Sat, Dec 28, 2002 (09:55) 4 lines Janet: this is a humorous book and was first published in Britain. Humor often involves taking things to extremes, use of hyperbole, etc. However, to an untrained ear, this is what many a Scottish accent sounds like. The Telegraph wrote that the book is "a splendid travelogue...that is part valedictory journey and part love letter to Britain and the British." Or you might like this from Newsday: "A valentine to 'this small, enchanted island'...a journey into the British psyche and the heartland of its inhabitants...Bryson extrapolates from his experiences a deeper understanding of what makes Britain tick....He honors a hallowed English tradition: poking fun." These feelings definitely comes across throughout the book. Bryson loves the place. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 705 of 718: Evelyn (lafn) Sat, Dec 28, 2002 (10:42) 3 lines (Karen)These feelings definitely comes across throughout the book. Bryson loves the place. Agree. He never means to offend. The guy is a true anglophile.The book was given to me by a British friend before it was published in the US. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 706 of 718: FanPam (FanPam) Sun, Dec 29, 2002 (08:52) 1 lines Looking forward to DQ discussion. Thank you Janet for offer of translation. Your talents will be much needed. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 707 of 718: Annette (anjo) Mon, Dec 30, 2002 (06:11) 5 lines (Barb S)there ought to be some kind of freaking prize for ODB I totally agree. Both New Cardiff and GWAPE was easy reading, so I went to the library to borrow Don Quixote to be prepared for the discussion. What a shock! The books (yes, 2 volumes) weight 5 pounds and consistet of 1240 pages!!!!! I usually think of myself as a quick reader, but there is no way on earth that I will be able to have them read in time. I thought Possession was ok to read once I had consumed the first 100 pages, but I don't know about this one. Don't you think it would be possible to follow the discussion having only read the synopsis? Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 708 of 718: KathyF (kathness) Mon, Dec 30, 2002 (09:35) 4 lines (Annette) The books (yes, 2 volumes) weight 5 pounds and consistet of 1240 pages!!!!! I usually think of myself as a quick reader, but there is no way on earth that I will be able to have them read in time. I knew there was some reason I hadn't read it. ;-) I certainly wouldn't make it through in time, unless I dropped everything else in order to do so. Guess I'll have to read those Sparknotes I've bookmarked, though I'd always rather read the book than cheat with a synposis. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 709 of 718: Karen (KarenR) Mon, Dec 30, 2002 (13:22) 1 lines So does that mean you readers would like a *bit* more time to get through Don Quixote before we start the discussion? ;-))))))))))))))))))) Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 710 of 718: KathyF (kathness) Mon, Dec 30, 2002 (13:56) 3 lines (Karen) So does that mean you readers would like a *bit* more time to get through Don Quixote before we start the discussion? ;-))))))))))))))))))) Not me, Boss! I'll stick with what I'm reading now, and wing it on the discussion. I doubt anybody would want to wait the month it would probably take. ;-) Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 711 of 718: Annette (anjo) Mon, Dec 30, 2002 (17:28) 3 lines (KathyF)Not me, Boss! I'll stick with what I'm reading now, and wing it on the discussion. I doubt anybody would want to wait the month it would probably take. ;-) Same here! I'll start reading the book and hope to finish before next New Years Eve. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 712 of 718: LisaJH (LisaJH) Mon, Dec 30, 2002 (23:52) 1 lines I read DQ years and years ago and thought it was wonderful. But am I going to dig it out again, and read it for the film discussion? No way�just being a realist here. Besides, I am too busy becoming a Woolf scholar.:-) See my post #564 at topic 168. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 713 of 718: lindak (lindak) Wed, Jan 1, 2003 (16:53) 3 lines I would love a wee bit more time to read the notes and rewatch the film, but if the majority want to go with the original date, then let's get to it. I'll catch up. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 714 of 718: Karen (KarenR) Wed, Jan 1, 2003 (23:06) 1 lines So far we're working on a Monday start date, but I have no trouble going with a week later. In fact, that works out better for me. And, if we start having trouble with access, then it should be all straightened out by that time. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 715 of 718: Tress (Tress) Wed, Jan 1, 2003 (23:10) 1 lines Whatever date is best...I'll be ready. Will the discussion occur on this topic? Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 716 of 718: Annette (anjo) Thu, Jan 2, 2003 (04:20) 2 lines (lindak)I would love a wee bit more time to read the notes and rewatch the film, but if the majority want to go with the original date, then let's get to it. I'll catch up. Ditto! Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 717 of 718: Karen (KarenR) Thu, Jan 2, 2003 (13:10) 1 lines Given the unstable nature of Drool for time being and many people's expressed desire to immerse themselves in the first great picturesque novel of all times (*smirk smirk*), we'll start the discussion of DQ one week later, January 13th. Topic 158 of 172: 'Colin Firth - Film Discussions (part III)' Resp 718 of 718: Lisa (freddie) Thu, Jan 2, 2003 (21:11) 2 lines Thanks Karen for starting the discussion on the 13th, as you know my time is not my own these days. Have not even considered yet rewatching DQ. Not to mention, *gasp* I never read the book! There ya' go. Terry

Thanks, Karen, for extending the film discussion to the 13th. I never read DQ either, but I will make use of the link to the notes online. I've been gone for a few days, and I'm glad to see that most of us have landed in the right place. Thanks, Terry and Karen

DQ on UK TV Alert Just in case anyone taking part in the discussion hasn't seen it, it is being shown on UK Drama (Cable and Satellite Channel) on Tuesday 14 January at 10.20pm.

closing italics(I hope)

A couple of prediscussion reminders: (1) Please remember to use our established format here, when you are responding directly to someone else's comment. Have the person's name in parentheses and the entire thing in italics, with your comment directly below. (Wanda) in driving the bus, he stood for Everyman Really, I thought he represented Ralph Kramden. The purpose of this format is to keep the discussion open. When you direct a comment to anyone individually by name (e.g., Wanda, what is Everyman and why did you capitalize it?), then it only appears to be for them. It is a subtle difference but effective. If you need any help with HTML codes, check out Ann's Tutorial: http://austen.com/tutorial/index.html and if you need to practice, please use Topic 61. Many people stop by there and can answer your questions. (2) Please try to pace yourselves. I noted in the last discussion a number of people commenting that there was too much, too quickly and that, if they didn't enter into the discussion on that first day, it would take a Herculean effort to catch up. Several opted not to. OK, that's all that occurs to me right now. If you have any questions about the process, let's hear them. Am getting out my changemaker... ;-)

Hey! It's the 14th here, so, being a day behind, it should be the 13th there! Have I missed something? I wouldn't be surprised. I thought though, we were to start today! (Karen) Please try to pace yourselves. I noted in the last discussion a number of people commenting that there was too much, too quickly and that, if they didn't enter into the discussion on that first day, it would take a Herculean effort to catch up. Several opted not to. I guess we are really pacing ourselves as there are no posts yet! Seriously, I didn't say anything, but I dropped out of the MLSF disucssion. After I missed a few days, I simply could not get back into it; there was too much to catch up on. The enthusiasm was great though and I did enjoy reading everyone's comments! So, hey, what's the story?

I was planning to Go into the belly of the beast ;-) but I'm turning my place upside down now. Could only be Grand Theft File Folder. Cannot find my DQ file folder!!! Bwaaaaaa

Into the belly of the beast.... Love that line and wish I knew if it came from some other source. Sounds Biblical in a way, almost Daniel (coincidence?) in the lion's den or a David and Goliath situation. But wasn't Jonah the only character who was actually in the belly of a beast--a whale--and he didn't enter it on purpose, as Donovan does? Donovan comes to Port Clyde to battle the behemoth, having heard about the rail situation on the radio, or at least that was the impression I got from the introductory scenes of the radio call-in show and him pacing around. Here's a little factoid, the man calling into the radio, obsessed with the times of trains is the director, who the writer, Donna Franceschild, described as someone who is truly into trains, a trainspotter, as they say. This is not only a modern-day retelling of some of the Don Quixote legend with political allusion, but should also be viewed as a parable. I've always considered DQ one of my favorites and recommend it highly to anyone. The writing is sharp and intelligent, the production has style, the musical score doesn't get any better with those Van Morrison songs and the Spanish guitars punctuating the poignancy of a moment, and the acting! All of it is brilliant. Not a slouch in the bunch. I really can't understand how Katy Murphy did not win a Bafta, once it was finally aired; she was nominated. Then, of course, there's Colin, and there's never been in my mind a more gorgeous bus driver in the history of film, but then again, I do love his lean and lanky look. He does a fantastic job of delineating the two personas, something just ices up his face when he's Daniel that sets him apart.

One more little Admin note: Please use the name Donovan or Daniel and not just DQ, unless you're talking about the whole production. Could get confusing. :)

(Lisa) I didn't say anything, but I dropped out of the MLSF disucssion. After I missed a few days, I simply could not get back into it; there was too much to catch up on. You weren't the only one. Having just completed my first full editing pass of the MLSF discussion doc (started out as 164 pages, streamlining the format took it down to 151, and is now 111 pages through the elimination of other stuff), there were a number of people who expressed the same inability to keep up. Others gave up as well.

(Karen)He does a fantastic job of delineating the two personas, something just ices up his face when he's Daniel that sets him apart. This was one of the first things, that I noticed as well. Brilliant acting. Since this is my first filmdiscussion, I am not quite sure, how the right way to post is. But, I'll try: I saw the movie Donovan Quick before I read anything of the book. I won't lie and say, that I have read it to the end. I have not! I did however notice, that the movie Donovan Quick only has a few "funny lines", while what I have read of the book so far strikes me as rather amusing. This not to say that I prefer the book. I love the movie and can only agree in the total of Karens posting above.

(Karen)Into the belly of the beast.... Love that line and wish I knew if it came from some other source. I love it too and the way he says it as he arrives in Port Clyde. And you took the words right out of my mouth when you started the discussion with them. I was going to use them too, but I've been getting knocked off line a lot today, and my posts don't get through. I thought of Jonah and the whale when he sid it. And really Donovan doesn't have a choice since he feels he must atone for his (Daniel's) previous sin/ways in any way where he'll see some results. I also loved the constant contrasts being shown in the film. For example, the way Donovan and Sandy made something out of nothing with the bus they fixed up whereas Clive couldn't even take the train to Glasgow for an interview. He was too afraid to even take the first step you could even hear the lump in his throat). I'll be back, but want to post before I get knocked off again.

Sorry my connection doesn't allow me to linger, so please excuse my typos. It's getting fixed tomorrow... (Karen)I do love his lean and lanky look. I agree, love when he lifts the bicycle for the ballerina (she looks like one) and the baby carriage for someone else. Such agility :-). I wondered if Daniel's wife, shown in the background at the hospital when the Pannick's come to visit him and aren't allowed in, could be played by his real life wife - it kind of looked like her. There's no credit given at the end for 'wife at hospital.' Any background on that in your DQ file folder, Karen?

And we have an answer from a lurker, who I've been attempting to coax into participation. KathyW says the earliest reference she can find to "the belly of the beast" is in the Greek myth of Bellerophon killing the Chimaera. He throws a spear into the monster's mouth, which melts. The molten lead trickles down and enters "the belly of the beast". References to Jonah and the whale don't pre-date Greek mythology. Besides, in the King James Bible, the verse says "the belly of the fish" (Jonah 1:17). The fire-breathing mythological creature Chimaera (also spelled Chimera) is depicted in art as having a lion's, serpent's tail and a goat's body, and is first mentioned in Book VI of teh Iliad. Interestingly, the dictionary also defines a chimera as "a vain or foolish fancy" or "the impossible." Cute, huh? ;-) Hmmm, Bellerophon rode Pegasus.

(Karen)Into the belly of the beast.... (Lora) Love that line and wish I knew if it came from some other source. I took some notes last night, and the first thing I wrote is Into the belly of the beast...with a note to search my Sparknotes on Don Quixote (that I had just finihed browsing). I could kick myself for not writing down a page number. Looks like the quote has struck a chord, but to know where it came from might open a whole area of discussion for the film. I will keep searching. (Lora)He was too afraid to even take the first step you could even hear the lump in his throat). Yes, quite the opposite of his favoite line...No experience and no bollocks! (Karen)He does a fantastic job of delineating the two personas, something just ices up his face when he's Daniel that sets him apart. I think the one thing that struck me most about the two distinct personnas was Daniel on the train platform, at the end. The first time I watched this, the hairs on the back of my neck just wouldn't lie down. I don't know what upset me more, the fact that he had obviously gone back to being cold, corporate Daniel Quinn...kind of back into the belly of the beast in reverse, or that he wasn't going to acknowledge that he knew Lucy. You knew before he turned, just from the physical stance, that he was Daniel. The blank look on his face was pure ice. The body language and facial expressions for both Daniel and Donovan were so different...brilliant!

(Karen)I do love his lean and lanky look. In the second "blue flashback scene", when he watches the widow and kids get into the car at the cemetary he is standing by a tree and he looks extremely long and lean and lanky! I am surprised he did'nt get scouted for the NBA after this scene. It looks like he is on stilts...After this scene, female giraffes were caught at an internet cafe outside the San Diego Zoo trying to log into Drool to learn more about the handsome one with no tail, but legs a girl girafe would be proud to take home to the pride... There are so many great scenes and lines in this. Donovan " For evil to triumph it requires only that good people do nothing." This is central to the story. I find myself rooting for Donovan, rooting for him to find a way to effect a change, one small change even for the better of this one family, this town, the world at large. The futility of his endeavor to do so is a huge part of the story to me and the hopelessness of fighting evil multinational corporations comes down to Lucy's line, "If you charge 50p, they'll charge 50p"... Donovan to Sandy, "We must resist them. They may have bigger boots but we have more feet." At the end of this impassioned little speech, I am ready to join his army and fight the good fight!

(Linda) I think the one thing that struck me most about the two distinct personnas was Daniel on the train platform, at the end. The first time I watched this, the hairs on the back of my neck just wouldn't lie down. This was so chilling. Brilliant transformation and acting. The mean look in his eyes as he spoke to Lucy. Bravo and yet so tragic. (Maria) The futility of his endeavor to do so is a huge part of the story to me... But are his efforts futile? IMO he made this totally disfunctional family productive. Sandy is married, having a baby, and working. Lucy is sober and definitely improved and Clive is out of the picture. Lucy's son in functioning and relating to her. Perhaps he didn't achieve his possibly irrational and impossible goal, to best the big corporation, but he did succeed in turning this family around and IMO quite an achievement. His efforts did make the bus company sweat and effect change. The public was made aware that they could fight and stand up to big business, and they did. So this was not a total failure either. Donovan did succeed. But IMO the tragedy is that Donovan failed with himself. He helped so many other people, but failed with himself. Tragic.

(FanPam) But IMO the tragedy is that Donovan failed with himself. He helped so many other people, but failed with himself. Tragic. Yes, the inevitability of his return to his Daniel persona though is maybe some of the sense of futility I felt. His inability to make atonement and therefore his gestures are to the extreme and overcompensatory. When he arrives as Donovan he has an almost hysterical optimism diametrically oppsed to his Daniel persona. Lucy is a drunk./He covers for her by blaming the loose tile and the dodgy pie. Sandy has a learning disability/ Twice he tells him he is a genius. Lucy is not always shown in the most attractive light./ He tells her she is beautiful. Lucy makes macacroni and cheese./ He compliments her as though he has just eaten at a Michelin starred restaurant. I like the way he says "pasta". Like fast-a vs. what I am used to hearing pah-sta.

(Karen)He does a fantastic job of delineating the two personas, something just ices up his face when he's Daniel that sets him apart. Yes, when we see him as Daniel, he has his inscrutable �game face� on: his corporate armor of sorts; whereas Donavan is open, animated and spontaneous�plenty of those dimpled smiles to go around, too. (Linda) I don't know what upset me more, the fact that he had obviously gone back to being cold, corporate Daniel Quinn�..or that he wasn't going to acknowledge that he knew Lucy. I wonder, did Daniel remember the entire episode as Donovan (as he was in a psychotic/manic state at the time), or if he did remember, was he just too mortified to acknowledge Lucy at first? I am assuming he reverted back to being Daniel as he was on medication (Lithium, or?). From what I know about bi-polar disorder, it usually takes a stressful event to trigger the psychosis, and I am assuming the event was the death of the man blocking the entrance which came about as a result of Daniel�s orders. I, too, thought the writing was very clever, as both sides of Daniel/Donovan were indeed polar opposites, and both were tragic in their own ways.

***Oh dear!! All this discussion about the platform at the end and what it all meant. Surely, we're not there yet, are we? (Annette) I won't lie and say, that I have read it to the end. I have not! I commend you though for even attempting to do so. (Lora) love when he lifts the bicycle for the ballerina (she looks like one) and the baby carriage for someone else. Such agility :-). And so unbelievable for me. Don't think I've ever seen a bus driver get off his/her seat for anything. Surely, the passengers would know something was dodgy? ;-) Definitely agile. Yum! (Lora) There's no credit given at the end for 'wife at hospital. That would be because she didn't have any lines. (Remember CB-C had no credit for BJD for the same reason.) No, I don't believe it is who you think it is. Sorry. :-( (Linda) with a note to search my Sparknotes on Don Quixote Do let us know what you find, if it has an interpretation. (Maria) In the second "blue flashback scene" It's strange, with all the films I see, it was only in DQ that I noticed the blue filter technique. Then, I noticed it again in Traffic and see it all the time. However, I did find it very effective in DQ, gave it another element of style that lifted it above the mundane. Donovan " For evil to triumph it requires only that good people do nothing." (Maria) This is central to the story...rooting for him to find a way to effect a change What do you imagine he had in mind originally when he arrived in Port Clyde? Do you think he had a game plan? It didn't appear to me that he did. He just showed up, as if it were the place of battle but that he had no battle plan. (Maria) When he arrives as Donovan he has an almost hysterical optimism Interesting way of putting it. Hysterical? It does fit in more with everyone's perception of him, as having a screw loose, but I only saw it as enthusiasm and optimism, even joie de vivre, for someone who had waken from a dead, unfeeling existence. (LisaJH) whereas Donavan is open, animated and spontaneous--plenty of those dimpled smiles to go around, too. Excellent way of describing the differences. (Maria) Lucy makes macacroni and cheese./ He compliments her as though he has just eaten at a Michelin starred restaurant. One of my favorite lines (have many others), reflective of the fantasy life he's living, the gallant knight and his lady. ...time to turn place upside down again. Perhaps the Mission Impossible squad can locate the file folder. ;-)

(Karen) It does fit in more with everyone's perception of him, as having a screw loose, but I only saw it as enthusiasm and optimism, even joie de vivre, for someone who had waken from a dead, unfeeling existence. On reflection his enthusiasm struck me as hysterical when seen in contrast to the seemingly bleak, depressed and chaotic lives being led in Port Clyde.At one point I thought he DID have a plan on choosing that place, maybe even choosing that family. How? Hey I don't know, use your imagination. But after he had negotiated the room/board with Lucy and she offers to do room service, he says " I think you are doing quite enough as it is." She looks confused, and I wondered to what he was referring.

(Maria) At one point I thought he DID have a plan on choosing that place, maybe even choosing that family. How? Hey I don't know, use your imagination. I suppose I looked on the entire venture as "quixotic." ;-) He heard the radio show and he just decided to go there, with no plan at all in mind. The Port Clyde commuters had a problem and he was off to the rescue. When he arrived, he saw the posting for room and board. But he had no idea what he was going to do there. It wasn't until he heard of Sandy's inability to get to his training center that he had any focus. (Maria) " I think you are doing quite enough as it is." She looks confused, and I wondered to what he was referring. In Donovan's fantasy state of mind, he probably thinks he has the Royal Suite at the Ritz, complete with room service. I think that's what he means about Lucy's services.

(Karen)"the belly of the beast" is in the Greek myth of Bellerophon killing the Chimaera. He throws a spear into the monster's mouth, which melts. The molten lead trickles down and enters "the belly of the beast". References to Jonah and the whale don't pre-date Greek mythology. Besides, in the King James Bible, the verse says "the belly of the fish" (Jonah 1:17). Interestingly, the dictionary also defines a chimera as "a vain or foolish fancy" or "the impossible." Cute, huh? ;-) Hmmm, Bellerophon rode Pegasus Thanks for the Greek mythological explanation. It works well with what Donovan is about to do, i.e. something "vain or foolish" or "the impossible." Makes me think of the wonderful song frm "Man of La Mancha" - "To Dream the Impossible Dream:" "To fight the unbeatable foe, to bear with unbearable sorrow, to run where the brave dare not go." (Maria)I find myself rooting for Donovan, rooting for him to find a way to effect a change, one small change even for the better of this one family, this town, the world at large. Same here, Maria, especially during one of my favorite scenes in the movie when Donovan and Sandy are on the bus and Sandy confesses he is still confused about the fare and that he thought is was a pound every time. Donovan says to Sandy (and he says it at first like he's frustrated with him): "Because it's brilliant, like all simple ideas, it's brilliant. The flat rate fare structure! You've done it again, Sandy, you're a genius!" I love Sandy's priceless expression here perfectly timed with an enthusiastic Van Morrison song! We are right there with them, rooting for them all the way :-).

REMINDER DQ starting in 5 minutes on UK Drama.

(Karen)In Donovan's fantasy state of mind, he probably thinks he has the Royal Suite at the Ritz, complete with room service. I think that's what he means about Lucy's services. This could very well be the case, but I just thought he referred to the menagerie in the sittingroom "complete with tele". There are so many observations/interpretations allready, and it is hard to respond to all of them, so I hope it is okay to respond "in general". My first thought of Donovan is also the knight in shining armour: kissing Lucy on her hand, carrying stroller and bike, not wanting to take advantage of Lucy in her vulnerable state and so forth. I love the scenes with Donovan and Sandy. I think there is some real magic between them. I also like the approach the movie has on mentally deficient people or as Lucy puts it "learning disabilities". I live next to a daycarecenter and I recognised their behavior in Sandy as well as Lucys telling him to keep his head down (which I'm sure she said to protect him). If I meet any of them at home, they keep their heads high and smile and joke around, but when I meet them in the town, I have to adress them before they lift their heads and return my hello. I also like the way Donovan "guides" Sandy to speak up, when he feels something, even though he gets hurt. As Sandy says: I allready am the laughing stock. He might have a learning disability, but he is no moron.

I forgot to ask a question: His black driving-gloves, is there a metaphore in this? I haven't found any, butI thought it would be something, that someone more clever at this than me could make something of (the way he throws his glove (a duel?) at the companyman - I don't know how to spell his name). btw There has been some comments of the different way of portraing Donovan and Daniel. I also noticed the great difference in bodylanguage. Donovan is very lively while Daniel appears very stiff.

I'm really pacing myself because this time around I'm having difficulty not only understanding Clive but Lucy also. Imagine...me...who always clamor for "reality' in movies! The Glaswegian Scottish accent is a doozey. However, .At one point I thought he DID have a plan on choosing that place, I think so too...didn't the disc jockey mention Port Clyde in his report? Donovan was zeroing in on this target.Sandy happened to be the first chance he found to execute the plan.If it hadn't been Sandy, he would have found other means, IMO.Donovan was a zealot, but he didn't set out to rehabilitate the Pannick family.Though ultimately he did. Any film that features Van Morrison is a winner.

(Evelyn)If it hadn't been Sandy, he would have found other means, IMO.Donovan was a zealot, but he didn't set out to rehabilitate the Pannick family.Though ultimately he did. I agree, he set out to "fight the mighty Windmills" and went to Port Clyde deliberately. But I am also of the impression, that at the moment he arrived, he didn't have an exact plan. It was formed as he went along (pardon my rotten english).

(Annette) There has been some comments of the different way of portraing Donovan and Daniel. I also noticed the great difference in bodylanguage. Donovan is very lively while Daniel appears very stiff. Yes Annette!! Absolutely!! In the first "blue scene" when the wife gets up from leaning over her husband's dead body with the medics to slap Daniel's face (quick aside, he looks to die for in this scene) he is the unmoved and stiff Daniel. He has come upon this horrible scene but carries himself as a man that makes weighty and important business decisions regardless of how lives are affected. Then as Donovan, when Sandy has the idea to buy the bus he is loosey-goosey, impassioned and goes to hug Sandy (God, he is an impossibly cute hugger! Same kind of hug in TIOBE.just love it..)an impulse that is hard to imagine ever striking Daniel.

I am in the middle of such a busy time at work/in life right now, and I fear that I won't be able to take part in the discussion ongoing, so I just wanted to add some random thoughts. Thanks to Janet for giving me DQ only a short time ago - so generous! I am so glad that he made this movie, I *love* that he played this part. Sort of personal. First off I am (until Friday when I change jobs) a social worker for the local authority for adults with learning disabilities. This includes arranging transport for day services (a pain!). I'm a user of and believer in public transport. I am anti-corporate rule. Donovan rocks! =) I love that Donovan doesn't change the way he talks when he speaks to Sandy - no simplifying his language. Has complete faith in him. It's hard to find even closely accurate media/entertainment portrayals of learning disability. This one does a pretty good job. The Pannicks are a good example of the disasters and strengths of families all at once - resiliency of the family to survive whatever comes their way. I like that this movie isn't full of beautiful people. Just average or even not so nice looking people. Actually I really love the part where him and Sandy are strolling down the street handing out flyers and you can just tell the ladies (extras) walking by are like ''ooh it's Colin Firth!''. Envy! The aforementioned changes between Donovan and Daniel - even the subtle change in his hair and clothing make Daniel look creepy. Oh, and there are some good long strides in this film, and great hair =).

I haven't seen DQ in a couple of years, but in remembering back, and in reference to the "Deus Ex Machina" mentions in Odds and Ends for Adaptation, I got to thinking that Donovan was a "deus ex" for the Pannick family, in lots of ways.

(Annette)My first thought of Donovan is also the knight in shining armour: kissing Lucy on her hand, And while Donovan, as a knight, has a fantasy of rescuing others, other characters seem to have a fantasy of being rescued. Lucy felt she was being rescued when she was seventeen by the man who took her away from Gran and Sandy for the day (and she came back pregnant with Jim), and Clive thinks he'll be rescued by the job that the Norwegian will give him. (Evelyn)but he didn't set out to rehabilitate the Pannick family I agree. But I think he picked their ad at the Newspaper store where the girl who Sandy had a crush on worked because it probably looked like the last one to be put up, it being underneath all the other ads. Therefore it would be the most recent and not already taken. I love Sandy's crush on Redika and how Donovan has to pull him gently by the arm out of the store after they deliver flyers because Sandy is standing there mesmerized by her ;-). Love CF's expression when he does that.

(Pam)But IMO the tragedy is that Donovan failed with himself. He helped so many other people, but failed with himself. Tragic. And at the end of the film is Daniel (even though he has a high paying job) any different than Clive, who is also ruthless and unmoved by other people. Not only did Clive beat up Donovan physically (and take back his peace offering to Lucy) but he will continue hurting others who get in his way and remind him of his failures just like Daniel and Windmill Transport. I love the Spanish guitar that's played in the background during times of tension. Very Quixotic :-) (Emma)This includes arranging transport for day services (a pain!). I'm a user of and believer in public transport. I am anti-corporate rule. Donovan rocks! =) I love that Donovan doesn't change the way he talks when he speaks to Sandy - no simplifying his language. Has complete faith in him. You make such good points here. It's what makes Donovan so likable and trustworthy. And you would have been the perfect extra in this movie, if only!

(Karen)It wasn't until he heard of Sandy's inability to get to his training center that he had any focus. Yes, and I noticed at the beginning and even after he first arrives at the Pannick house he seems to be moving almost like a robot in a trance of some sort...the focus was not there...yet. (Evelyn)he didn't set out to rehabilitate the Pannick family.Though ultimately he did. By providing self esteem to a household where it was non-existant. But you're right that's not what he set out to do. (Annette)(the way he throws his glove (a duel?) After having just watched V yesterday, I noticed the throwing down of the gloves, too. Great observation, Annette, I didn't think of it as a duel, but you are correct.

Figures I'd be the first to forget to close the tags

And at the end of the film is Daniel (even though he has a high paying job) any different than Clive, who is also ruthless and unmoved by other people. Sorry...I'm posting twice in one day...(don't want to pile up the posts which makes it overwhelming to others.) But help me out here boss...But didn't someone ask Colin about this ending and he said Daniel would not return to be the same person he was before.

(Evelyn)But didn't someone ask Colin about this ending and he said Daniel would not return to be the same person he was before. Sorry, Karen, we're discussing the ending again! I felt that Daniel had returned to his previous persona, judging by the mobile phone call, but being confronted by Lucy, and the realising the changes he had made in their lives, made him think again - at least that's what I took out of his last long look back. BTW, I noticed Clive's nickname for Lucy was 'Peaches'. Where have I heard that before?

I have only watched DQ 2times,(Thanks Janet) the first just to look at and the second to pick up what was being said. All I can comment on so far is that I really enjoyed the 'I'll pay extra' scene and the 'macaroni cheese' scene.

(Janet)I felt that Daniel had returned to his previous persona, judging by the mobile phone call, but being confronted by Lucy, and the realising the changes he had made in their lives, made him think again - at least that's what I took out of his last long look back. Maybe the update he got from Lucy would make him change, but would it last? Like you said he had just finished talking on his cellular about prying someones fingers off something in order to get him out of the way. His last long look was a tad hopeful but inconclusive about whether he would really make a turnaround for the better. Maybe that last frozen scene showed the moment when a person does have an opportunity to change for the better, but will that person take that more difficult road and "run where the brave dare not go?" It isn't an easy thing to do. And he wasn't "a great madman" anymore - as Donovan said to Lucy, "after being returned to sanity, he was nothing."

(Lora), His last long look was a tad hopeful but inconclusive about whether he would really make a turnaround for the better. as Donovan said to Lucy, "after being returned to sanity, he was nothing." True. In the end, he had gone back. His fantasy was over, DQ was dead and gone.

(Annette) This could very well be the case, but I just thought he referred to the menagerie in the sittingroom "complete with tele". Another perfect example of his fanciful view of the deluxe accommodations at Chez Pannick. *guffaw* (Annette) My first thought of Donovan is also the knight in shining armour: kissing Lucy on her hand...not wanting to take advantage of Lucy in her vulnerable state... Donovan's behavior epitomizes chivalry. He has placed his lady on a pedestal and will defend her honor. He abides by a strict code of ethical conduct, lacking in today's society in general, and expects others to respect that. As you mentioned about the glove, that is the proverbial "throwing down the gauntlet," the chivalric challenge. I find it amusing that Mackie didn't have a clue as to what that meant. (Annette) I also noticed the great difference in body language. Donovan is very lively while Daniel appears very stiff. I've never noticed that in particular. Do we see Daniel move very much? (Evelyn) I think so too...didn't the disc jockey mention Port Clyde in his report? Donovan was zeroing in on this target. Whim, pure and simple. He heard of a some people having a problem on the radio and the little voices in his head said "go there." (Lora) I love Sandy's crush on Redika and how Donovan has to pull him gently by the arm out of the store after they deliver flyers because Sandy is standing there mesmerized by her ;-). Love CF's expression when he does that. I know, it's gone in a nanosecond, but for some reason looks so real to me. (Linda) even after he first arrives at the Pannick house he seems to be moving almost like a robot in a trance of some sort...the focus was not there...yet. Quite right. He hovers in doorways, like he doesn't even know why he's there. Could they have picked any more appropriate song for Lucy to sing at the bar than "I Will Survive"? ;-) When Donovan first arrives at the Pannick house, he is viewed as a total nutcase by Lucy and Clive, but Lucy couldn't care less as he's able to pay. Practical to the core about Donovan, but not necessarily about Clive. You hardly get the impression that she "loves" him so much that she'd ignore the hard reality of their situation. She's a pity f@#k to him, and she's just so lonely and desperate to accept it at that level. Who wouldn't drowned themselves in booze with at life like that? Not being able to accept that anyone could like her for herself. This reminds me of one of my favorite bits of dialogue: Lucy: You must think I'm disgusting DQ: No. No. No. It just wouldn't be right to take advantage of your fragile state. Also I realize that you're spoken for. Lucy: By Clive? That's like saying that the household refrigerator is spoken for. It's just something you use. Something you stuff your salami in. DQ: So why do you let him... Lucy: ...park his salami? There's such a painful look on Donovan's face, which makes me wonder if he's always 100% Donovan at times or if Daniel's reality of understanding creeps in. I also noted that in the scene where he counsels Sandy about chat-up lines. Doesn't seem in-character for a Donovan, but certainly a Daniel would know all about that.

Imdb has "The Making of Donovan Quick" Has anybody in the UK seen it? Going back to the plot....;-) Grann...some piece of work. Recognize her? She's one of the occupants in that crazy building in AZ! Didn't realize that Katy Murphy won Best Actress from the Royal Television Society for this. http://us.imdb.com/Tawards?0213623

(Karen)I find it amusing that Mackie didn't have a clue as to what that meant. True. But Mackie is more a part of Daniel's world of making the wheels turn which leaves no room for chivalry. Mackie has to answer to Ms. Gorman (and what's with that giant picture of her in his office, is she the Queen of the Railways? ;-)) who has the motto: "It's not enough to succeed, others must be seen to fail." But Mackie does make one noble effort to help Clive by offering him an honest job even when Clive comes to try to get money from him for information. Love those lines between them: C: I'm a saturation diver M: Seeing as you've got experience with water, I'll give you a job washing buses. :-) When Mackie does this and what Donovan does for the Pannick family are some of the highest and most noble ways to help someone back on track to a stable life which allows them to continue from that point on their own. So I think Mackie isn't such a bad guy, he just has to answer to Queen Gorman. But of course Clive wouldn't think of taking that low level job. (Evelyn)Grann...some piece of work I love her character! I don't remember her from AZ, but I only saw it once - note to rerent. I love her always in her slip on the phone giving the schedule and saying to someone on the phone, "Yeah, just stick out your hand and they'll pick you up." Donovan gives her something to live for at the end of her life instead of just watching cars on the telly. Hope I'm not posting too much. I love this story and have 8 pages of notes on it! Please just let me know if I'm saying too much at once or on the "wrong track."

(Karen) Practical to the core about Donovan(Lucy), but not necessarily about Clive. You hardly get the impression that she "loves" him so much that she'd ignore the hard reality of their situation. She's a pity f@#k to him, and she's just so lonely and desperate to accept it at that level. Who wouldn't drowned themselves in booze with at life like that? Not being able to accept that anyone could like her for herself. The Lucy/Clive shag scene is IMHO the most despair laden of the whole movie, allowing yourself to be worked at mechanically so you can be touched, the room dim (it seemed like a single bulb from the ceiling room) and miserable. I think I had to pour myself a drink after this scene to drown it out. And Clive going on about how "experience counts for something"... (EmmaB) I'm a user of and believer in public transport. I am anti-corporate rule. Donovan rocks! =) Whistles and cheers The Donovan/George Mackey scenes always get to me. It seems George knows he is in the ring with a competitor that has more character and mettle and that can best him so it becomes very personal to him, putting 15 or so buses on that route is overkill unless you are threatened. And the portrait of Kathleen Gorman on his wall with the ?lilies in front was almost deifying. GM was a despicable Gollum like character...

(Karen)I've never noticed that in particular. Do we see Daniel move very much? I can't put my finger down to give an example. It is just something, that I "feel" seeing the movie (though, when the widowed wife spits at him or waiting for the train in the ending scene could be some examples). (Karen)DQ: So why do you let him... Lucy: ...park his salami? I now the moment is quite sad but I can't help but laugh a wee bit. I like this line a lot. (Lora)So I think Mackie isn't such a bad guy, he just has to answer to Queen Gorman. I thought so too. He just seems to be one of those, who has gotten "up the ladder" in the company and now does what has to be done, not taking real pleasure in "nailing" the small companies.

(Evelyn) Grann...some piece of work. Recognize her? She's one of the occupants in that crazy building in AZ! I thought Grann was Grann from MLSF!! Oops.. (Lora) (and what's with that giant picture of her in his office, is she the Queen of the Railways? We were on the same page here!! Like Lora I am sorry for posting so much, I swear just this last bit and I will take my verbal incontinence out for a walk...But there are 2 hair moments that bear mentioning...When the bus won't start and Lucy's son (Name Morris or Jim??) is enlisted to help, Donovan leans out the window and the rear view mirror is perfectly situated to highlight the little bald patch... also in the last scene on the platform while he is on the cell and the camera approaches from the rear, there it is again...

(Karen), makes me wonder if he's always 100% Donovan at times or if Daniel's reality of understanding creeps in. This is a good point. Can anyone think of other crossover times?

(Evelyn) Going back to the plot....;-) Really? I thought maybe we were discussing Memento? ;-) Really, I can't see how anybody can discuss the ending without thoroughly analyzing who the characters are, their relationships, the politics, social situation, etc. All of that has to factor into an understanding of what happened to Donovan/Daniel and it might alter your view. Oh well... (Evelyn) Didn't realize that Katy Murphy won Best Actress from the Royal Television Society for this. And she was nominated for a Bafta, along with the entire production for Best Drama. It also won something for its portrayal of the learning impaired. You all do know that David Brown, who played Sandy, is learning impaired himself, don't you? (Lora) But Mackie is more a part of Daniel's world of making the wheels turn which leaves no room for chivalry. But who hasn't heard the expression "throwing down the gauntlet"? Maybe if Donovan had slapped Mackie's face with the gloves, a direct challenge for a duel, then he might have better understood the action. (Lora) Mackie has to answer to Ms. Gorman (and what's with that giant picture of her in his office, is she the Queen of the Railways? ;-)) In a private business, it would be highly unusual to see an owner's portrait in executives' offices. However, you do see pictures like that in government offices, at least in the US, depending on the governmental unit (be it mayor, governor or president). I expect in the UK, there are portraits of the Queen in government offices. But this one stands for someone very specific: Margaret Thatcher. They've used a Margaret Thatcher lookalike for the role of Mrs. Gorman. In addition, there is a transport company, based in Scotland, called Stagecoach, run by a brother and sister, who employed methods very similar to Windmill when the system was privitized. I've never seen a picture of Ann Gloag, but she and Margaret serve double duty here. (Lora) But Mackie does make one noble effort to help Clive by offering him an honest job Did you take that seriously? As they say in the UK, he was taking the piss out of him. But then again, Clive was trying to shake him down; he didn't deserve anything more than what he got, which was insulted. (Maria) The Lucy/Clive shag scene is IMHO the most despair laden of the whole movie Can't get anymore dismal than that. Mechanical is the perfect word. Two people completing an act, without any feeling whatsoever. (Maria) It seems George knows he is in the ring with a competitor that has more character and mettle and that can best him so it becomes very personal to him I don't feel it is that exactly. George thinks he knows him for some reason. We can see Donovan is someone else when he bounds up the stairs at Windmill's office and bursts through the outer offices with the panache of a confident man who belongs there. When Mackie asks if he does know him, he answers, "if you met me before, you'd remember" (great line, great delivery). Donovan is clearly acting more in Daniel mode, it's basic and natural to him. I don't think it has anything to do with Donovan's higher goals or anything, but the confident appearance. (Annette) I now the moment is quite sad but I can't help but laugh a wee bit. I like this line a lot. No need for apologies, I love the lines myself and the refrigerator part too. ;-)

(Evelyn)Imdb has "The Making of Donovan Quick" Has anybody in the UK seen it? I haven't; it probably hasn't been shown since the programme was first aired in December 2000. - But I live 10 minutes from the studios in Glasgow where it was made, so I'll see if anyone there can help us out.

(Lora)When Mackie does this and what Donovan does for the Pannick family are some of the highest and most noble ways to help someone I don't think that Mackie was noble. The first offer of the ten thousand for the bus, I'm sure, would have had to been approved by someone higher up, I don't think Mackie would have had the authority to make and pay that kind of offer. Later, I feel Mackie is somewhat smug when he tells Donovan that the offer has dropped to five thousand. I think he mentions something to the effect that the route isn't worth it...Yet it was worth it to saturate the route with several Windmill busses to get rid of Quick and Pannick in the first place.

(Emma) I love that Donovan doesn't change the way he talks when he speaks to Sandy - no simplifying his language. Has complete faith in him. Yes, I found this to be very touching and poignant, for as a result of Donovan�s madness, he didn�t discern any difference in Sandy and treated him with dignity and respect. Accordingly, Sandy�s self-worth blossomed. Sort of reminds me of the concept that we can truly judge a person�s character on how he treats those who are vulnerable: children, the poor, the elderly, the disabled, etc. (Karen)� which makes me wonder if he's always 100% Donovan at times or if Daniel's reality of understanding creeps in.. I think it makes perfect sense that Daniel�s managerial and problem solving skills as an executive would turn up in Donovan, but manifested in a topsy turvy manner as a result of his madness/psychosis. Thus, Donovan sets about to start his bus company in a �results driven� manner: he purchases and spruces up the dilapidated bus, outfits Sandy with a uniform from Oxfam or similar, has schedules printed, etc. The absurdity is that Donovan thinks he can defeat Windmill. It is Daniel�s intellect but Donovan�s filter (for lack of a better word) of the knowledge and experience. (Karen) I also noted that in the scene where he counsels Sandy about chat-up lines. Doesn't seem in-character for a Donovan, but certainly a Daniel would know all about that. I imagine Daniel as a smooth talker/letch with the ladies (and cheating on his wife) and used to getting what he wants. Again, this is Daniel�s frame of reference, coming through Donovan in a different way, as Donovan is trying to help Sandy when his �damsel�with this chat up line.

Oops, my turn to close the italics.

(Annette) I also noticed the great difference in body language. Donovan is very lively while Daniel appears very stiff. (Karen) I've never noticed that in particular. Do we see Daniel move very much? Not much, but I too think when he walks up as the man is laying on the ground and the woman is screaming he appears rather stiff. I agree about the facial expression, the neck, the walk. Even when standing at the cemetary. Maybe it's the facial expression that is so striking in Daniel vs Donovan. (Karen), makes me wonder if he's always 100% Donovan at times or if Daniel's reality of understanding creeps in..... Daniel�s managerial and problem solving skills as an executive would turn up in Donovan, but manifested in a topsy turvy manner as a result of his madness/psychosis. ...that in the scene where he counsels Sandy about chat-up lines. Doesn't seem in-character for a Donovan, but certainly a Daniel would know all about that This question really struck me when Lucy was going through his things. I wondered whether he had looked at it since he became Donovan. If so, did he think it odd to have the card with someone else's name on it in a book he may or may not remember or realize he's reading. Maybe he didn't look at it or maybe it didn't phase him. I thought it odd that he could walk into Windmill's offices and not be snapped out of it. Or was he really in it? Also, in light of the questions of his "psychosis", I was curious what psychotic disorder he might actually have that he would seem to snap out of rather quickly and found this...... Acute Stress Disorder Diagnostic Criteria The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following were present: the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror Either while experiencing or after experiencing the distressing event, the individual has three (or more) of the following dissociative symptoms: a subjective sense of numbing, detachment, or absence of emotional responsiveness a reduction in awareness of his or her surroundings (e.g., "being in a daze") derealization depersonalization dissociative amnesia (i.e., inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma) The traumatic event is persistently reexperienced in at least one of the following ways: recurrent images, thoughts, dreams, illusions, flashback episodes, or a sense of reliving the experience; or distress on exposure to reminders of the traumatic event. Marked avoidance of stimuli that arouse recollections of the trauma (e.g., thoughts, feelings, conversations, activities, places, people). Marked symptoms of anxiety or increased arousal (e.g., difficulty sleeping, irritability, poor concentration, hypervigilance, exaggerated startle response, motor restlessness). The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning or impairs the individual's ability to pursue some necessary task, such as obtaining necessary assistance or mobilizing personal resources by telling family members about the traumatic experience. The disturbance lasts for a minimum of 2 days and a maximum of 4 weeks and occurs within 4 weeks of the traumatic event. The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition, is not better accounted for by Brief Psychotic Disorder , and is not merely an exacerbation of a preexisting Axis I or Axis II disorder. This seems more likely than a true psychotic disorder which were generally marked by complete confusion of thought among other things. I looked for, but could not find on this site, Mood Disorder with Psychotic Features, which may be a more chronic state.

(Karen) When Mackie asks if he does know him, he answers, "if you met me before, you'd remember" (great line, great delivery). I really loved that line and delivery, too! But it wouldn't be inconceivable that Mackie had heard about the incident with Daniel and someone had described him. Or seen a picture in passing, but didn't really pay attention to it, but the faint memory is triggered whenever he sees Daniel. I'm sure we all must have run into someone we met or saw before that we can't place right off when we see them again. I pulled the info above on the Acute Stress Disorder from the DSM-IV-TR. (Think I erased the source info when making a correction above).

(Lisa JH)It is Daniel�s intellect but Donovan�s filter (for lack of a better word) of the knowledge and experience I think this is a very understandable way of putting, who he is and when, and I totally agree. (Dorine)I wondered whether he had looked at it since he became Donovan. If so, did he think it odd to have the card with someone else's name on it in a book he may or may not remember or realize he's reading This puzzled me as well, yet I haven't figured out any answer to it. (Dorine)This seems more likely than a true psychotic disorder which were generally marked by complete confusion of thought among other things Agree, placing the flasbacks to happen in that time-frame, it seems more likely than a "lifelong" disorder. And judging from that last look, when he enters the train, I think we are allowed to hope, that perhaps a very small part of him has been "touched" by his time as a mad man.

(Dorine)I pulled the info above on the Acute Stress Disorder from the DSM-IV-TR Thanks Dorine, the info on ASD certainly fits what Daniel is experiencing.I think we can see at least three or more of the symptoms associated with this disorder manifested in Daniel's behavior. The diagnostic criteria was definitely there as well. the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror

I rewatched DQ late last night and had a whole new outlook on it. (Karen) Donovan comes to Port Clyde to battle the behemoth, having heard about the rail situation on the radio, or at least that was the impression I got from the introductory scenes of the radio call-in show and him pacing around. What do you imagine he had in mind originally when he arrived in Port Clyde? Do you think he had a game plan? It didn't appear to me that he did. He just showed up, as if it were the place of battle but that he had no battle plan. ....But he had no idea what he was going to do there. It wasn't until he heard of Sandy's inability to get to his training center that he had any focus. (Evelyn).... didn't the disc jockey mention Port Clyde in his report? Donovan was zeroing in on this target. (Karen) Whim, pure and simple. He heard of a some people having a problem on the radio and the little voices in his head said "go there." Did anyone see what it says at the bottom of the sign saying �Welcome to Port Clyde� at the beginning? It says, �Home of Windmill Transport�. *That* is the �belly of the beast� and why he went initially, I bet. He�s going to the source of the problem. Maybe Port Clyde just happened to have a problem for convenience of the story. Or it�s ironic that Windmill is causing such problems in their own back yard and either doesn�t realize or care. But I don�t think he had a clue either of what his �cunning plan� would be. (That line, can�t remember the exact phrase right now�.. when talking to Sandy, always makes me laugh with a Blackadder flashback). He does a fantastic job of delineating the two personas, something just ices up his face when he's Daniel that sets him apart. When he�s Daniel, he�s almost squinting. He opens his eyes enough to see out, but not enough for anyone to see in. His mouth is also quite tense as Daniel. Just a straight line. With Donovan his eyes seem more open and rounded. A more relaxed mouth. With regard to his body language as each persona, it�s been remarked a few times how lean and lanky he looks as Daniel. As Daniel he seems to be thinner, keeping within himself, not let anything or anyone get to him. He was probably the type of executive who made all the decisions and took suggestions from no one. As opposed to when he is Donovan, he appears almost to widen himself. He�s more open to let people and ideas in. He doesn't really have to move at all or that much to see it. Colin did this too in Apartment Zero. What brilliant acting. So subtle. (Emma) Oh, and there are some good long strides in this film, and great hair Agreed! I�ve decided too, I like his hair best with longer sideburns. Sometimes they�re shorter and I think the longer ones suit his long, lanky face much better. (LisaJH)...did Daniel remember the entire episode as Donovan (as he was in a psychotic/manic state at the time), or if he did remember, was he just too mortified to acknowledge Lucy at first? I am assuming he reverted back to being Daniel as he was on medication (Lithium, or?). I think he remembered everything. Matter of fact, after rewatching it, I don�t think he had a psychotic break at all. I think he was completely aware the entire time what was going on and what he was doing, but he couldn�t really let on who he was or what he was trying to do. I think he is just a supremely guilt-ridden man who was trying to right a serious wrong. And a bit misguided in his attempt. Just because he was �Sectioned� doesn�t necessarily mean he was truly ill or that bad. Family,friends, and employers could say anything to help get him committed. Having him committed may help in a lawsuit too against the company as they can claim "temporary insanity" of Daniel and hang him out to dry while the company dodges taking responsibility. Maybe they were mortified that a man like Daniel would attempt to do something so nice (and out of character) as to try to rectify the situation (and assuage his guilt) by offering the widow money. (Pam)But IMO the tragedy is that Donovan failed with himself. He helped so many other people, but failed with himself. Tragic. (Evelyn) But didn't someone ask Colin about this ending and he said Daniel would not return to be the same person he was before. (Janet) I felt that Daniel had returned to his previous persona, judging by the mobile phone call, but being confronted by Lucy, and the realising the changes he had made in their lives, made him think again - at least that's what I took out of his last long look back. I guess in a way he did fail with himself to completely effect a change in attitude and personality, but there is obviously an awareness, and possibly even a longing for the �Donovan� attitude to emerge again as noted in the last look. He�s just a defeated man and probably doesn�t have the strength to continue swimming against the tide, so he stays with the Daniel attitude. It�s what he knows and what works. Less effort. Plus, God knows what they did to him or gave him in that hospital. Sorry this is so long, but I may not have time or be around much to say anything else over the next few days. And rewatching was such an epiphany for me about some things (whether I interpreted things right or not), I wanted to get these thoughts out.

(Lora)So I think Mackie isn't such a bad guy, he just has to answer to Queen Gorman. I think it's so funny how he adjusts his necktie when he has to take her phone call. Donovan leans out the window and the rear view mirror is perfectly situated to highlight the little bald patch... also in the last scene on the platform while he is on the cell and the camera approaches from the rear, there it is again... I wouldn't call that a bald patch, I'd say his hair is thinnig a bit ;-). (Dorine)I wondered whether he had looked at it since he became Donovan. If so, did he think it odd to have the card with someone else's name on it in a book he may or may not remember or realize he's reading I think he knew quite well who he really was. After he's been beaten up by Clive he tells Lucy the story of Daniel and how he seeks atonement. In that scene I get the impression he knows who he is.

(Dorine)I think he was completely aware the entire time what was going on and what he was doing, but he couldn?t really let on who he was or what he was trying to do. He certainly knew the police would come after him eventually. The first time the police brings Sandy home you can see his face behind the door of his room. I wish this film wasn't so dark. I realize the "blue wave" part has to be as well as the beginning to give the impression of his mental state,but why in the Pannick house?

(Evelyn)I wish this film wasn't so dark. I realize the "blue wave" part has to be as well as the beginning to give the impression of his mental state,but why in the Pannick house? It annoys me too, but at the same time, it underlines the sad, grey life of the whole family.

..it underlines the sad, grey life of the whole family. And *mine* for having to squint through it. Adds to the "crows feet".

From my lurker KathyW... (I won't take credit for her excellent observations) She watched it for the first time last night and loved it and noticed a couple of important things relating to our discussion of whether Donovan knows who he really is: 1. He has actual flashbacks, as opposed to a director's technique to inform the audience of material. When Donovan experiences the flashbacks, notice his change in facial expression and breathing, indicating stress--he's aware and reliving experiences. 2. Noticed in the scene when Lucy helps Donovan up to his room after Clive beats him up that the _Don Quixote_ novel is lying out right on the window sill. He must have been reading it and, therefore, making conscious connections/parallels with himself.

(Linda) I don't think that Mackie was noble. George Mackie was Katherine Gorman's lackey. ;-) [Had to do this before Lora or Caribou jumped on it.] I saw no altruism in his behavior. He was part of that company and must have been fairly successful given his position, a regional manager. Mackie held the banner for "It's not enough to succeed, others must be seen to fail." A person doesn't work at company that subscribes to such a malicious work ethic, unless he agrees with it. (LisaJH) it makes perfect sense that Daniel's managerial and problem solving skills as an executive would turn up in Donovan...The absurdity is that Donovan thinks he can defeat Windmill. It is Daniel's intellect but Donovan's filter...of the knowledge and experience. Good way of putting it. Obviously, he hasn't forgotten everything and reverted to some childlike state. Donovan's filter is idealism, which I think explains why he believes he can defeat Windmill, i.e., good will triumph over evil. (LisaJH) I imagine Daniel as a smooth talker/letch with the ladies (and cheating on his wife) Now, what would give you that impression about Daniel cheating on his wife? She look like cold fish to you? ;--) (Annette) I also noticed the great difference in body language. Donovan is very lively while Daniel appears very stiff. (Dorine) when he walks up as the man is laying on the ground and the woman is screaming he appears rather stiff....Even when standing at the cemetary. Think about the circumstances of those scenes, hardly the type where anybody would be loping around, crazily hugging anybody, with a huge grin plastered across their face. Facially, he's stiff, but again the circumstances dictate that as well. I don't think we've been giving enough of a basis. No big deal though. (Dorine) I wondered whether he had looked at it since he became Donovan. If so, did he think it odd to have the card with someone else's name on it in a book he may or may not remember or realize he's reading. He certainly would've had to open the bag, if only to get at the money. Moreover, when he ran out of money, he still had the American Express card and knew not to use it. Daniel would know it had either been revoked or he could be traced through it. (Dorine) Acute Stress Disorder Good research. I liked the diagnostic criteria and it seemed to match up perfectly, but I had a problem with the "list of symptoms." Oh well, psych has never been my thing, except to apply Freudian interpretations to lit. ;-) Donovan tells Lucy that he was diagnosed with hypomania, a bipolar disorder. The screenwriter's husband works in a psychiatric hospital and she had written another television drama (Takin' Over the Asylum) about such a place. Doesn't mean they were right--especially as they've discounted the effect of the triggering event--but here's a definition of hypomania:Hypomania is a mood state which like mania is characterized by persistent and pervasive elated or irritable mood, and behaviors and thoughts that are consistent with such a mood state. It is distinguished from mania by the absence of psychotic symptoms and less impact of functioning. Hypomanic Episodes occur in some Mood Disorders. When an individual experiences a discrete episode of persistent and pervasive emotional hypomania, this term may be applied. Criteria for Hypomanic Episode A. A distinct period of persistently elevated, expansive, or irritable mood, lasting throughout at least 4 days, that is clearly different from the usual nondepressed mood. B. During the period of mood disturbance, three (or more) of the following symptoms have persisted (four if the mood is only irritable) and have been present to a significant degree: (1) inflated self-esteem or grandiosity (2) decreased need for sleep (e.g., feels rested after only 3 hours of sleep) (3) more talkative than usual or pressure to keep talking (4) flight of ideas or subjective experience that thoughts are racing (5) distractibility (i.e., attention too easily drawn to unimportant or irrelevant external stimuli) (6) increase in goal-directed activity (either socially, at work or school, or sexually) or psychomotor agitation (7) excessive involvement in pleasurable activities that have a high potential for painful consequences (e.g., the person engages in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, or foolish business investments) C. The episode is associated with an unequivocal change in functioning that is uncharacteristic of the person when not symptomatic. D. The disturbance in mood and the change in functioning are observable by others. E. The episode is not severe enough to cause marked impairment in social or occupational functioning, or to necessitate hospitalization, and there are no psychotic features. F. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication, or other treatment) or a general medical condition (e.g., hyperthyroidism).[BTW, I claim absolutely no expertise in this area. ;-)]

(Karen) BTW, I claim absolutely no expertise in this area. ;-) We're all armchair psychiatrists for this one. I did though have the dubious duty of studying the DSM-III-R (I think that was the edition) in school as my major was based in psychology/psychiatry. But that was just around 10 years ago and some of the definitions have definitely been refined in many cases and I don't use the information on a daily basis anymore. I believe one of knows a good reference source she can ask. ;-) I'm glad the description of hypomania is posted as I had already posted about the Acute Stree Disorder before I rewatched it and the hypomania dx stood out to me as he said it. I wondered if that was really an accurate description of his condition or one that sounded good to the writer. Interesting to know about her husband and her previous project. The Acute Stress Disorder seemed to fit better if we were going under the assumption that he seemed dissociated from being Daniel as Donovan. That seemed to be the tone of the discussion at one time. (Nita) I think he knew quite well who he really was. After he's been beaten up by Clive he tells Lucy the story of Daniel and how he seeks atonement. In that scene I get the impression he knows who he is. I agree with you at that point he did. If nothing else, Clive beat him into sense as opposed to senseless. But again, up til then, the tone of our conversation seemed to indicated that we saw them as two very different people with the characteristics of one seeping into the other. I may have read it all incorrectly, too. (KathyW) Noticed in the scene when Lucy helps Donovan up to his room after Clive beats him up that the _Don Quixote_ novel is lying out right on the window sill. He must have been reading it and, therefore, making conscious connections/parallels with himself. Great observation! I missed that. Guess I need to rewatch again.

So....are we thinking he does not have a mental illness...that he's playing out a "fantasy" as Moon said. Isn't that what Don Quijote did? Wow, this is the best discussion we've ever had...thanks gang.

(KathyW) Noticed in the scene when Lucy helps Donovan up to his room after Clive beats him up that the _Don Quixote_ novel is lying out right on the window sill. In the scene where Lucy is angry with Donovan, (after Clive has been really abusive because he has left his wife and Lucy tells him to get out, she is blaming Donovan for all that has happend since he has arrived, and she asks him if he thinks he's a Don Quixote...Notice the body language. He seems to freeze in his tracks. I can't figure out if he is so startled by that remark that he begins to come back to reality/Daniel, or if he (Donovan)is surprised that she has unmasked him. (Dorine)The Acute Stress Disorder seemed to fit better if we were going under the assumption that he seemed dissociated from being Daniel as Donovan. I agree.

(Karen)George Mackie was Katherine Gorman's lackey. ;-) [Had to do this before Lora or Caribou jumped on it.] How could I resist when so great a temptation is before me. I'm jumping in! Really good one, Karen. The only one I could come up with for George is that he is like a MACK truck, a little one, thus the diminuitive form MackIE. (Annette)Donovan is very lively... Great observation and very fit for the name game because QUICK in old English means alive. And if you break down his first name, you see DON O' VAN or knight of the bus to be more precise, in this case. :-) Kathleen GORMAN was a Gorgon! I don't really know what a Gorgon is like, but I am quite sure she is one. In any case, she is a monster...:-) LUCY Pannick was, as women go, rather loose u see? I just love how their names go together to make the bus company, Quick and Pannick. Especially when Windmill uses their livery and changes it to Pannick and Quick. Then, it's time to really panic, and quick! It was also very appropriate to have Van Morrison so prevalent on the sound track. When the story is about a Van, Mor is on! That concludes this episode of the name game but there are plenty left for other takers. Go to it!

Leaping in... I was wondering how the writer would have come up with the story in the first place. There seem to be three or four possible geneses: (a) Don Quixote - wanted to retell the Cervantes classic, and fitted the vehicle (!) around that (b) Politically motivated - so anti-privatisation that she wanted to point out its inhumanities - in this case the Don Quixote story is the vehicle (c) Wondering about whether a person with a psychiatric disorder could temporarily become a nicer person and do good (d) Keen to tell a story about a desperation-ridden, poverty-stricken travesty of a family life not being so hopeless after all (subject of many films, I saw one last night) Given Karen's information (The screenwriter's husband works in a psychiatric hospital ), I tend to favour (c), in which case she may have just fitted her idea of a bad person to privatising the buses (and right-wing politics generally), which she sees as a bad thing. The good side of the character then develops naturally in fighting his previous role, and distributing good in a Don Quixote manner as he does it. There are parallels between (c) and As Good As It Gets, and probably other films I haven't seen - but it struck me that DF might have been aware of the possibility of this Acute Stress Disorder as a plot device with a potential morality twist. Caribou: DON O' VAN or knight of the bus to be more precise Magnificent!

Great observation Mark. I go for (b). Definitely anti-privatization. Wonder if George Mackie represented anyone on Margaret Thatcher's cabinet. Caribou this is your best yet...but me thinks you are giving DF more credit than she deserves.

Brava Caribou, for your ingenious and insightful word play. I love this sort of thing. I would have to highlight your entire posting to point out my favorite bits.;-) I thought of one: Lucy = lu-cid or lu-cid-i-ty. Lucy never candy-coats the truth about her situation. And doesn�t Donovan have most of his lucid moments in her presence? Which made me think why does Donovan have to be either totally cognizant of what he is doing the entire time (as posited by Dorine in an intriguing and thought provoking view of DQ), or in a manic/hypomanic state, unaware of his actions and true identity? Why can�t it be both/and as opposed to either/or? IOW, why couldn�t Donovan be both aware of his past (as Daniel) and still be in a hypomanic state? Trying to gain additional insight, I turned to Websters for the following: psychosis: 1: profound disorganization of mind, personality, or behavior that results from an individual's inability to tolerate the demands of his social environment whether because of the enormity of the imposed stress or because of primary inadequacy or acquired debility of his organism especially in regard to the central nervous system or because of combinations of these factors and that may be manifested by disorders of perception, thinking, or affect symptoms of neurosis, by criminality, or by any combination of these -- distinguished from neurosis; compare insanity. 2 : extreme mental unrest of an individual or of a social group especially in regard to situational factors of grave import: war psychosis mass psychosis -- compare hysteria. Number two of the defintion intrigued me this time around, which led me to: hysteria: 1: a psychoneurosis that is marked by emotional excitability involving disturbances of the psychic, sensory, vasomotor, and visceral functions 2 : conduct or an outbreak of conduct exhibiting unmanageable fear or emotional excess in individuals or groups (could not fail to destroy his system, never very strong and pitched to hysteria from the first -- H.M.Ledig-Rowohlt; (weeping generously ... and wildly giggling, in a hysteria which she could not control -- Arnold Bennett; "swept up into the systematized hysteria of the war -- Scott Fitzgerald. -- synonym see mania. Then I looked up: mania: Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin, from Greek mainesthai to be mad; akin to Greek menos spirit. 1 : excitement of psychotic proportions manifested by mental and physical hyperactivity, disorganization of behavior, and elevation of mood; specifically : the manic phase of manic-depressive psychosis 2 a : excessive or unreasonable enthusiasm : a violent desire, passion, or partiality. craze:"has a mania for building and transforming" -- Arnold Bennett; "seized by a mania for acquisition" -- Erico Verissimo; "enamel vases, for which our middle classes so long had a mania" -- Albert Dasnoy: "letters from citizens who had the mania of print" -- Winston Churchill; b : something that is the object of a mania: "prizefighting, horse racing, and dog racing are national manias" -- T.H.Fielding; "demobilization became the mania of the day" -- Demaree Bess. So does Donovan�s mania fit the first or second definition? Of course, there is always artistic license in a script, which could be why it is hard to pigeonhole what is going on with Donovan/Daniel. ;-P (MarkG) There are parallels between (c) and As Good As It Gets, and probably other films I haven't seen - but it struck me that DF might have been aware of the possibility of this Acute Stress Disorder as a plot device with a potential morality twist. Funny, I thought of the movie Regarding Henry, where the obnoxious attorney had to take a bullet in the brain to become a better husband and father.

Sorry about the big space at the end. :-(

Mark, Caribou, and Lisa...thanks for the brilliant insights. (Mark)There are parallels between (c) and As Good As It Gets, and probably other films I haven't seen - but it struck me that DF might have been aware of the possibility of this Acute Stress Disorder as a plot device with a potential morality twist. So much food for thought, I must think about this and Lisa's post. I have a dozen films swimming in my brain just now. However, I'm a bit breathless at the moment having just come from 165.

What great observations everyone. Great discussion. As diverse as his personalities were brings the question to mind was Daniel himself such a healthy speciman? Was such a cold, unfeeling and calculating man healthy to begin with? I, too, feel he knew what he was doing. When he left the hospital he knew enough to liquidate his assets before they were frozen. Would he have known to do that if he had lost his true identity? He did not like who he had become and was determined to become a better man. This could not be achieved as Daniel in his mind though rationally it could. But he is not thinking rationally at this point so Donovan comes to life. But he is well aware of his true identity. Just some thoughts I had.

Re the geneses, I want to choose: (e) all of the them. (MarkG)(a) Don Quixote - wanted to retell the Cervantes classic, and fitted the vehicle (!) around that I think she wanted to use this to keep the PLOT in order; much like Helen Fielding did with BJD. (b) Politically motivated - so anti-privatisation that she wanted to point out its inhumanities... This is her main MESSAGE in a movie that fits in several messages.(Which, sad to say, is why it probably didn't get picked up in Hollywood--they like their messages few and far between and hard to find.:-() ...in this case the Don Quixote story is the vehicle Agreed. (c) Wondering about whether a person with a psychiatric disorder could temporarily become a nicer person and do good This is AUXILLARY material to make the story fuller, richer, deeper and more interesting. (d) Keen to tell a story about a desperation-ridden, poverty-stricken travesty of a family life I see this as the truthful HUMAN CONDITION without which no one will bother to see the movie. not being so hopeless after all Puts the sweet in the bittersweet ending which I am glad both Cervantes did in the original and DF did here. (MarkG)Magnificent! :-)High praise indeed from the person who came up with one of my all time favorites: William Shakespeare's Hamlette! (Evelyn)Caribou this is your best yet...but me thinks you are giving DF more credit than she deserves. Many thanks. I can't argue about credit; you have the greater knowledge because didn't you and Karen see and hear her at a screening? Was it easy to see how that person would right this? (LisaJH) I thought of one: Lucy = lu-cid or lu-cid-i-ty. Lucy never candy-coats the truth about her situation. Excellent, Lisa. I like this one better. Stark realism is key to Lucy's character. (LisaJH)And doesn�t Donovan have most of his lucid moments in her presence?Right, at times it seems that her realism is going to get through his idealism and make him see the TRUTH!

Sorry. Was it easy to see how that person would writethis?

Caribou and LisaJH: Loved your analyses of the names. :) Interesting that we seem to be concluding that Daniel might never have been "mad" (from whatever cause). The evidence keeps mounding up that he always knew who he was. It seems as though he was suffering from strong sense of guilt. Apparently, he sought out the novel (checked it out of the library), looking for inspiration on how to rectify his wrongs. As he might have remembered, the Don was a supremely noble being, believing himself to be fighting for just causes on the behalf of underdogs. Daniel strove to be same, "great madman," but he was always cognizant in my mind of who he really was. (Dorine) Just because he was "Sectioned" doesn't necessarily mean he was truly ill or that bad. Quite right. Initially, he would've been admitted for observation (maximum of 72 hours). The UK Department of Health defines mental illness as:- more than temporary impairment of intellectual functions shown by a failure of memory, orientation, comprehension or learning capacity; - more than temporary alteration of mood of such degree as to give rise to the patient having a delusional appraisal of his situation, his past or his future, or that of others or to the lack of any appraisal; -delusional beliefs, persecutory, jealous or grandiose; -abnormal perceptions associated with delusional misinterpretation of events; thinking so disordered as to prevent the patient making a reasonable appraisal of his situation or having reasonable communication with others.Since Donovan/Daniel told Lucy he was "Sectioned," it might have progressed to the next stage. Under the Mental Health Act of 1983, he could be involuntarily committed for assessment (lasting up to 28 days), if he were also deemed a danger to himself or others. I suppose giving away money could loosely be construed as a danger to others, i.e., his family. (Dorine) Having him committed may help in a lawsuit too against the company as they can claim "temporary insanity" of Daniel and hang him out to dry while the company dodges taking responsibility. There are differences between US and UK laws. This is clearly not a criminal case. In the US, there would be a civil suit, as we are the most litigious nation on the face of the earth. Daniel ordered the drivers not to stop and one clearly did not, hitting and killing Mr. Sapas. In the US, Mrs. Sapas would be suing the pants off of Windmill, Daniel Quinn, the driver and probably Mrs. Gorman. A civil suit would be bolstered by the fact that Daniel made the offer of money, which would be taken as an admission of culpability. However, when I consulted Drool's legal expert, she said it was a tricky situation. If he ordered the drivers not to stop, knowing that someone was likely to be hurt, then conceivably he could be charged with some kind of conspiracy, or aiding or abetting offence to murder or manslaughter. But it would very much depend on the circumstances of the events. (Evelyn) So....are we thinking he does not have a mental illness...that he's playing out a "fantasy" as Moon said. Isn't that what Don Quijote did? Is that what Don Quixote did? (Linda) [Lucy] asks him if he thinks he's a Don Quixote...Notice the body language. He seems to freeze in his tracks. I can't figure out if he is so startled by that remark that he begins to come back to reality/Daniel, or if he (Donovan)is surprised that she has unmasked him. I tend to think the latter, shock at being unmasked or that she has figured it out. (Mark) (b) Politically motivated - so anti-privatisation that she wanted to point out its inhumanities - in this case the Don Quixote story is the vehicle (c) Wondering about whether a person with a psychiatric disorder could temporarily become a nicer person and do good Good question. I'd have to go with these two actually, with (b) being the structure or "vehicle" as you punned (!) for the parable and (c) being a concurrent psychological study. DF's political leanings would've had, I think, a major part in Colin taking this role, besides it being so well written. Privatization was only an example--albeit an excellent one--of how the Thatcher government's policies of allowing unregulated capitalists to run over the little man or anyone in your path. (LisaJH) Which made me think why does Donovan have to be either totally cognizant of what he is doing the entire time...or in a manic/hypomanic state, unaware of his actions and true identity? Why can't it be both/and as opposed to either/or? IOW, why couldn't Donovan be both aware of his past (as Daniel) and still be in a hypomanic state? Gaaah! I really must watch again to check out all the little bits of evidence that I've never noticed before and to see if I can the answer is apparent, with this new perspective. In all the discussions we've previously had about DQ, this have never come up before. It was a "given" that Daniel was suffering from some psychiatric disorder, hypomania, a bipolar, etc. Bravo, ladies! Excellent work and thanks for all the research. I knew there was a reason I refused to take even one Psych course in college, except the one offered by the English Dept on Freudian interpretation of lit. ;-) [My U was huge Skinnerite school.] (Pam) was Daniel himself such a healthy speciman? Was such a cold, unfeeling and calculating man healthy to begin with? I suppose it all depends on your political leanings. Daniel stood for capitalism; we are not given a full portrait of the man. During that period (the 1980s), this was how a successful businessman operated. As Gordon Gecko would say, "Greed is good."

(Karen), Interesting that we seem to be concluding that Daniel might never have been "mad" (from whatever cause). As he might have remembered, the Don was a supremely noble being, believing himself to be fighting for just causes on the behalf of underdogs. Daniel strove to be same, "great madman," but he was always cognizant in my mind of who he really was. And in the end, he chose. But why that choice? Did he feel he was protecting Lucy and her family by doing so? Did he do it for them or for himself? (Evelyn) So....are we thinking he does not have a mental illness...that he's playing out a "fantasy" as Moon said. Isn't that what Don Quijote did? (Karen), Is that what Don Quixote did? Which coincides with what Lisa said: Which made me think why does Donovan have to be either totally cognizant of what he is doing the entire time...or in a manic/hypomanic state, unaware of his actions and true identity? Why can't it be both/and as opposed to either/or? IOW, why couldn't Donovan be both aware of his past (as Daniel) and still be in a hypomanic state? This seems clearer to me from this discussion.

(MoonD) And in the end, he chose. But why that choice? Did he feel he was protecting Lucy and her family by doing so? Did he do it for them or for himself? As we are never made privy to his treatment and therapy IMO we are left to piece together ourselves what may have happend which can only lead IMO to conjecture and individual interpretaion. A really difficult and very individual conclusion to draw. IMO, and lacking any evidence, I think he honestly felt a complete failure as Donovan. He tells Lucy he was sorry he couldn't help her. His plans to overthrow the bus company failed. Sandy was hurt, in his opinion because of him. I honestly feel he thinks Donovan failed. I don't feel this way, but Daniel may have. This may be a reason the transition back to Daniel took place. On the platform he tells Lucy he's sorry for any trouble he caused them. He sees it as a failure. When in reality he didn't fail them at all. Gave them a new and so very needed lease on life. Hardly a failure IMO, but perhaps not enough in Daniels world.

(FanPam) I honestly feel he thinks Donovan failed. This may be a reason the transition back to Daniel took place. Maybe it was that Donovan felt his failure gaining on him in his inability to make atonement, he knew his time was limited before his gig was up. The inevitability of his return to Daniel weighs on him. His desperation near the end when he wakes in a sweat and looks at the very little bit of money left and during the last visit to George Mackey where he talks as though he is still in the fight but much of his initial fire is gone as he knows he has lost and will be rejoining the "machine" as just another Mackey (lackey). In the end, he is unable to run away from himself or change decisions he has made in the past, especially decisions that have had such dire consequences as Daniel's.His success could be viewed as having been with the family and being the catalyst for their change. He has to avoid being too warm to Lucy on the platform as his fragile facade will come crashing down. Interesting that Lucy kept the name "Quick & Pannick Tours".

Hypomania doesn't necessarily entail amensia (which can only result after a brain injury...it is not a condition. But this is fiction, not a documentary and DF can make it what she wants). So we have Daniel, who feels responsible for the death of the union picketer and tries to make amends to the family and by distributing money to the needy.In addition he creates this mythical Donovan, after his literary hero, to act out his fantasy of how the world should be.Since he only knows about buses he decides to go where the action is. But he finds that IRL this doesn't happen, he spends all his money,is caught by the police and returned to his family. Take it away....I ain't going back on that platform....

Geez Louise!!!!! Are we back on the train platform? Surely, there are things about this film that interest you other than the ending? Favorite parts, the relationship of characters, favorite dialogue, the acting??

Favourite character for me (besdies DQ, of course). The mother. Now, I haven't yet viewed this film recently, so bear with me when I try and describe the scenes. Her wanderings in various degrees of undress without the slightlest hint of concern. (Yes, she is affected mentally, and to some great extent that is the catalyst for her actions.) She was classic when she was working the phones. She has found something worthwhile to do and occupy her time, that is actually serving a purpose. It appears that doing something useful helps to pull her back into reality and some sort of a more cognizant way of living. Too funny. Even though the character has reason to be pitied, she offers comic relief to a film that has a lot of dark moments.

Thank you. *phew* Donovan actually related his past history to Sandy much earlier. When they take the bus out for the first time, before the "discovery" of the flat fare structure, he explains what they are doing: "We're about to embark on a great mission, Sandy, a great quest. To fight the mighty Windmill. They'll try to defeat us, make no mistake about that, Sandy. They won't care who they hurt because there are no people in their equations, only customers, labor units, which exist just on paper, not in [painful swallow] flesh or blood. They keep the wheels turning. It doesn't matter if there's a man lying in the road in front of those wheels. A man of flesh and blood. [big pause] We need to stop the wheels, Sandy." There's passion in his words and delivery, and Colin even gives the appearance that he's visualizing Sapas' death while doing so. Wheels turning? A typical symbol of industrial progress. He really spits out that line. Progress has gone too far.

Thank you, *whew*, too. I find there is almost too much double meaning in this film and am trying desparately to keep my head above water.

I tried viewing this film with "my head" having read all these brilliant observations, and I had a very hard time determining which observation fitted in every situation. As a result I got most confused, and thought I missed out on the soul of the movie. I then saw it again whit "my heart", putting the observations into the very back of my head. I found out, that a lot of the things I had diffilculty making fit together or make sense suddenly all just seemed to co-work and make the movie a "whole" again. This is probably the silliest comment on the movie and is not to take anything away of the many great observations made by everybody. Just to try to explain - very unarticularly - what made the movie work for me.

(Karen), Geez Louise!!!!! Are we back on the train platform? LOL! Platform 4. ;-) The ending is so important! But so is the very beginning. And, there are ways they can be compared.

(Annette)I found out, that a lot of the things I had diffilculty making fit together or make sense suddenly all just seemed to co-work and make the movie a "whole" again. I think you are right - this is the way to watch this film. Like Karen said, it is also a parable so every definition is not going to fit just right. It's an illustration of a moral lesson or truth, and imho it is a much better one than 'Pay it Forward.'

(Lisa) The mother...Her wanderings in various degrees of undress without the slightlest hint of concern. Liz Smith is indeed brilliant here. I believe my favorite little bit is after the bus has been vandalized and Jim is repairing it. Gran is sitting in the driver's seat, in her ubiquitous slip, with a hat on, naturally, and Jim is telling her to start it up. As an aside, at one of my screenings, DonnaF was asked about Liz Smith, as she wouldn't be that well-known to an American audience. DF said she is an institution in British film and when they explained she would have to play the role mainly in her underwear, she responded, "I wouldn't have it any other way." Then, they said she would be playing someone with a form of dementia, and she responded, "oh, then I won't have to do any acting." (Annette) I then saw it again whit "my heart", putting the observations into the very back of my head. I found out, that a lot of the things I had diffilculty making fit together or make sense suddenly all just seemed to co-work and make the movie a "whole" again. Interesting approach, although I'm not quite sure how you do this? ;-) Anyway, I had another thought on your "body language" observation. It isn't off the mark at all and is consistent with the acting techniques that Colin uses. His drama school emphasizes creating a total package of a character, including physical movement. He may very well have developed a completely different carriage and posture for Daniel, but he just doesn't move enough to show it to me. My loss. I've been doing a little reading and it appears that the question "Is Don Quixote Mad or Acting" is right up there alongside Hamlet's Madness, which makes the answer it crystal clear to me, as I've never believed Hamlet was mad. So that fact that we're going back and forth on this is quite normal. For all those who take enjoy the "macaroni cheese bit" and his initial reaction to Chez Pannick, it too has its basis in the novel. In Chapter II, the Don sets out on his first quest and arrives at an inn, which he views as a great a castle. He is served a meager dinner of salt fish and moldy bread that he turns into a delicious repast of delicate trout and excellent bread. He is waited on by prostitutes, who he addresses as great ladies. Just as we find Donovan's responses humorous, so they were in the original book.

And, Caribou, glad to have coaxed you into the discussion. You've done it again with the name game! DON O VAN - it's brilliant. Has anyone noticed the picturesque backgrounds of this seaside town and the way Donovan and Sandy are shown together walking, arm around the other, from the side or back? They greatly resemble the literary figures they are portraying especially in their difference in size.

I haven't joined in the discussion yet, as I haven't seen the movie multiple times, and didn't feel I had much to add. I did want to comment on a few posts, however. Sorry to be so late getting around to this. (Karen) As you mentioned about the glove, that is the proverbial "throwing down the gauntlet," the chivalric challenge. I find it amusing that Mackie didn't have a clue as to what that meant. (Lora) But Mackie is more a part of Daniel's world of making the wheels turn which leaves no room for chivalry. (Karen)But who hasn't heard the expression "throwing down the gauntlet"? Maybe if Donovan had slapped Mackie's face with the gloves, a direct challenge for a duel, then he might have better understood the action. IMO Mackie knew exactly what Donovan was doing. He was merely adding to the insult by pretending not to, and by adding "now, I won't make you throw in your gloves as well." On one of the major points of this discussion thus far, I agree totally with those who think Donovan knew he was really Daniel all along. His responses whenever Mackie seemed to recognize him, his explanation after the beating when he told Lucy about Daniel... he may have had some sort of a breakdown, but I think he knew who he was and had merely adopted another persona in an attempt to change things and himself. And although he may have felt like he failed in his quest, in the end he obviously helped the Pannick family break out of the prison of their existence. Favorite lines? I had lots of them, some of which have already been mentioned. Here are a couple that haven't been mentioned yet (unless I missed them): Clive: "You need to have it here (flexes muscles) and you need to have it here (grabs crotch)." Lucy: "You need to have an erection?" Clive: "Balls, testically as the Norwegians say." Lucy: "People are calling the house to get bus information, and my brother looks like a refugee from 'Sgt. Pepper'." IMO the entire cast was amazing! Besides CF and KM, I was especially impressed by David Brown and David O'Hara. I adored Liz Smith! (Karen) You all do know that David Brown, who played Sandy, is learning impaired himself, don't you? I didn't know that, and it makes his performance all the more amazing! (Karen) As an aside, at one of my screenings, DonnaF was asked about Liz Smith, as she wouldn't be that well-known to an American audience. DF said she is an institution in British film and when they explained she would have to play the role mainly in her underwear, she responded, "I wouldn't have it any other way." Then, they said she would be playing someone with a form of dementia, and she responded, "oh, then I won't have to do any acting." What wonderful quotes!

I watched DQ again and my favourite set of scenes is when Donovan and Sandy are playing with the train set. Sandy was playing on his own, a coach is derailed and Donovan is quick to fix it - after that, Sandy has to take a back seat and watch Donovan playing with the train. Even my husband had to agree that this it what usually happens when our son tries to play with his train set - daddy just takes over! (And I can just imagine Colin playing with his sons)

(Kathy F)but I think he knew who he was and had merely adopted another persona in an attempt to change things and himself. Agree. An attempt to make -up for his perception of an evil deed. And actually , if he had been charged with actually having caused the death of the picketer he would have been arrested and not sent to a mental health institution. (Leah) I watched DQ again and my favourite set of scenes is when Donovan and Sandy are playing with the train set. Wonderful close-up of Colin's hands....those aristocratic fingers. (sorry, I'm a "hands and feet' person:-)) My favorite character, besides YKW , is Lucy. What facial expressions.Every emotion is seen vividly on her face. If Donovan is the messenger, she is realism personified not just to Donovan, but to Clive, Sandy,Jim,Gran. Saddest moment to me: when she explains to Donovan why she lets the guys shag her.A pathetic person who yearns for affection; Wonder if Dulcinea did this too.

(Evelyn) Saddest moment to me: when she explains to Donovan why she lets the guys shag her.A pathetic person who yearns for affection I agree. As amusing as I find the refrigerator/salami analogy, the rest of the scene just tears me up. She knows men are using her but she is so lonely, and her life if so empty. Even though she sees Clive for the bastard/loser he is, she'd rather be with him than alone. So tragic!

(Evelyn) My favorite character, besides YKW , is Lucy. What facial expressions.Every emotion is seen vividly on her face. She is great! And as chaotic and desperate as her life is, there are the moments that her humanity shines through above it all. She has'nt known or experienced that much happiness, but she has affection for her brother and Gran, she buys him the Mars Bar knowing itt will make him happy and offers to make him a pizza to brighten his day. She keeps that whole family together but is unable to show herself the same kindness but showing Clive the door alot sooner. Her character can really tear you up... The only thing odd (out of place) in the whole movie to me is the nod to the movie Speed when the Q & P bus is trying to outrun the P & Q bus and the passenger says something like " Will the bus blow up if we go below 50?" IMHO It somehow does'nt fit in with the purity of the rest of the film.....

(Karen)It isn't off the mark at all and is consistent with the acting techniques that Colin uses. His drama school emphasizes creating a total package of a character, including physical movement. I remembered this interview, given around the TIOBE release, which I think explains the "body-acting" part very well: Colin Firth on Paul Scofield: Um- it's not in anything one might in the crudest sense call acting. It's just there in his eyes. It's there in his voice. It's there in his stillness. And I think that was the thing that I - most wanted to pursue. (Evelyn)Wonderful close-up of Colin's hands....those aristocratic fingers. Oh yes, no need to analyze this - just pure enjoyment! (Karen)...with a hat on, naturally LOL I think this was a nice touch as well.

D

A copy of DQ (I assume taped from TV) has just sold on Ebay for $39.99. Pretty steep, don't you think?

It is. Karen, there's a business there. ;-)

(Lora) Has anyone noticed the picturesque backgrounds of this seaside town Since this was mentioned, Janet, do you recognize any of the locations used in the film? (KathyF) Mackie knew exactly what Donovan was doing. He was merely adding to the insult by pretending not to, and by adding "now, I won't make you throw in your gloves as well." How does "pretending not to" add to the insult? I don't understand (and I'm not pretending not to). However, I must go back and look at Mackie's face. To me, he looked perplexed, like he didn't understand. Then, later, when Mackie is talking to Clive, he says that he's a self-made man, which I took as someone who had worked his way up in the company and may not have had some posh university degree or exposure to the remnants of a long-gone era. Taken another way, with Mackie representing an unfeeling government bureaucrat, you wouldn't expect any knowledge of chivalry. (KathyF) Lucy: "You need to have an erection?" Love that one as well. Between that and "experience and bollocks," she is a marvel with words. ;-) How about "You work for Shell Oil, not the CIA." The dialogue in this film is so sharp and intelligent. (Evelyn) Wonderful close-up of Colin's hands....those aristocratic fingers. They are distracting, those long, slender.... (Evelyn) My favorite character, besides YKW , is Lucy. What facial expressions...If Donovan is the messenger, she is realism personified not just to Donovan, but to Clive, Sandy, Jim, Gran. Even though the Pannicks are portrayed as a dysfunctional family, there's a great deal that is, in fact, very realistic. Lucy is highly protective toward both Sandy and Gran. When she's angry or frustrated, she may be quick to point out their limitations ("don't you think you should finish making the rocket from the squeezy bottle?") or complain about her burdens, but she won't countenance anybody else, like Clive, calling her brother a moron or laughing at him. Within the family, it's alright but no one else would have that right. You see it in numerous scenes. But my favorite has to be when she comes home from the bar and trips over the "loose paving stone." This is a great scene for several reasons. First off, Lucy makes the transition from a cynic to a more neutral player. As Donovan is starting to examine her foot, she asks, "Are you some kind of pervert?" She can't imagine that anyone would be concerned over her welfare. She imagines everyone has ulterior motives. This now starts to change. Second, her speech about potentially hurting her brother demonstrates to us and to Donovan the qualities she holds inside--the "inner beauty" that Donovan sees and remarks upon, which stun Lucy to the core. She starts off by laying into Donovan: "If I find you've taken my brother for a sucker, I'll personally rip your face off." This may be a stretch, but at the bar, we hear this refrain from "I Will Survive": Oh no not I! I will survive! Oh, as long as I know how to love, I know I'll stay alive. I've got all my life to live, And I've got all my love to give, I'll survive, I will survive! She does "know how to love" deep inside and Donovan sees that, leading to the "You are...you are quite beautiful' line, which she is, deep inside. Sorry for the ramblings, but you know me and lyrics. ;-) (Evelyn) A pathetic person who yearns for affection; Wonder if Dulcinea did this too. Hold on. Hold on. I'm researching this. (Maria) The only thing odd (out of place) in the whole movie to me is the nod to the movie Speed I love that bit. Thought it was a riot or call it a homage. ;-)

One of my favorite lines after Donovan returns his dishes after eating the mac and cheese, offers to wash up and then kisses Lucy's hand, Clive says, "If that guy's not on drugs he should be." Just found it amusing.

(Karen)Janet, do you recognize any of the locations used in the film? The locations used are along the coast on the Firth of Clyde (the river that runs from Glasgow, widening towards the west coast and the sea). This is a particularly scenic drive westward towards Greenock. Some of the filming looks to have been done in a small town called Bowling. BTW, although the Pannick family are depicted as being fairly poor, the house they live in is by no means typical of working class housing (usually rented from the local council). I believe they own they're house? - quite unusual in the circumstances.

Yikes! My grammar fails me! Should have read 'their house'!

(Karen)the "inner beauty" that Donovan sees and remarks upon, which stun Lucy to the core I just watched DQ again, last night. I was really struck by this scene and took notes on it. I love the facial expressions on both Lucy and Donovan when she is going up to bed, walking out of the room, and Donovan says very slowly and distinctly "You-are-quite-beautiful" Yes, Lucy is shocked, but Colin's facial expression makes me melt. Sorry. I tried to work that in with something really deep to say, but that's the best I could do. I also looked for more Donovan knowing he his Daniel, moments or vice versa. At the very beginning, when Daniel is listening to the radio show, he is pacing and very agitated while Mackie is speaking. I took this to mean that he is Daniel and growing more frustrated with the company rhetoric that Mackie is spinning, the very belly of the beast that he was trying to escape or fix. Also, do we have any idea of a time frame? The flashback moments at the beginning seem to be in a room...possibly a hotel or bedroom. Then in other flasbacks, when Daniel has the suitcase with money it looks as though he is in a very nice house, which I assume was his. When was he sectioned? Did he walk out of his own free will, or did he slip away unnoticed? Obviously they were trying to locate him because of the police taking him away. More favorite lines: Lucy: If you go out wearing that you'll be the laughing stock of the neighborhood. Sandy: I already am. Love it when Sandy calls the newsstand guy a whenker(sp?)

(Lindak)Love it when Sandy calls the newsstand guy a whenker(sp?) - wanker I guess you'll all know the meaning(BJD)!

(Karen) How does "pretending not to" add to the insult? I don't understand (and I'm not pretending not to). However, I must go back and look at Mackie's face. To me, he looked perplexed, like he didn't understand. Then, later, when Mackie is talking to Clive, he says that he's a self-made man, which I took as someone who had worked his way up in the company and may not have had some posh university degree or exposure to the remnants of a long-gone era. Taken another way, with Mackie representing an unfeeling government bureaucrat, you wouldn't expect any knowledge of chivalry. I drew my conclusion from the fact that right before that Mackie had said he'd give Donovan 10,000 pounds for the bus and the ticket machine. Then when D. threw down one glove, M. handed it back and said "gloves" even though D. was still holding the other glove in his left hand. So my take on it is that M. was insulting D. further by appearing to take his challenge lightly, and refusing the gloves as part of the deal was his way of pretending that D. was actually going to take him up on the offer. (Sorry that's so incoherent, but I can't think of a better way to put it.) Of course, this is simply my opinion, and unfortunately I've only seen the film a couple of times. (Pam) One of my favorite lines after Donovan returns his dishes after eating the mac and cheese, offers to wash up and then kisses Lucy's hand, Clive says, "If that guy's not on drugs he should be." Just found it amusing. So did I. In fact, it was in my notes of favorites. (Lindak) Lucy: If you go out wearing that you'll be the laughing stock of the neighborhood. Sandy: I already am. Another favorite. Sandy's reply is great because it shows a quality that is fairly typical of many learning disabled people. They are often amazingly astute.

(Evelyn)Wonder if Dulcinea did this too. I see you're researching, Karen, but since I grew up listening to the "Man of La Mancha" record, I remember the song Dulcinea sings on the album and I think she is a lot like Lucy in terms of how and where she seeks comfort. Here are some of the words to her song: One pair of arms is like another, It's all the same. I go with you or with your brother, It's all the same It's all the same! (Maria)is the nod to the movie Speed when the Q & P bus is trying to outrun the P & Q bus and the passenger says something like " Will the bus blow up if we go below 50?" IMHO It somehow does'nt fit in with the purity of the rest of the film..... I'm so glad you mentioned this because this is one of the scenes where I just could not make out what the man was saying. Thanks for clearing it up. Ah, now I get it!!! Another man on the bus (during the ride where the people now know which bus -Q&P- to ride on) says something like he and his wife are going on vacation, but they're not going to the Netherlands because they don't want to see any Windmills! (heehee, very funny) (Karen)he says that he's a self-made man, which I took as someone who had worked his way up in the company and may not have had some posh university degree You know this was the line that threw me off about Mackie. The first couple of times I saw this scene, I did think Mackie was insulting Clive, but then this line made me think that maybe something else was happening here. Mackie was giving Clive the one thing he needed, a job. Clive was always dwelling on his past, but never loooking to the future. But he would never have taken such a low level job. But it was a job that was offered to him. Perhaps he could have worked his way up too if he had had any strength of character. But, no, he didn't have that. Sandy actually had 100% more character than Clive did! I also love the way Clive and Mackie discuss that he is a "saturation diver." Clive tries to make it sound so important but really it illustrates what a "low, bottom feeder" he is. (Karen & Linda)"You are...you are quite beautiful' line, which she is, deep inside. I love this scene so much too! Especially the way Colin says it to her so slowly and doesn't get to the "you are quite beautiful" part right away and she thinks he is about to say, "You know what you are...you are..." and she thinks he's about to say "whore." She's very touched by what he says instead. :) Janet, thanks for explaining some of the locations used for the film. I also thought their house was very nice from the outside and that their location right on the water was probably not likely given their money problems. Although Lucy's mom had left it to her and Sandy. Could she have been in a better station of life back then? Are homes passed on to the children?

(Karen) You all do know that David Brown, who played Sandy, is learning impaired himself, don't you? (KathyF) I didn't know that, and it makes his performance all the more amazing! Sorry I haven't had much to contribute to the discussion. Haven't really seen the movie in several years. Haven't had time to see it now. But it reminded me that I had put up a page on an article in the Observer about Colin and David that came out just before DQ was shown (*finally*!) in the UK. You can find it at: http://www.geocities.com/kgjart/CFwDBrwn.html

Thanks very much for the link! The article was very interesting and especially timely for the film discussion!

(Lindak)Donovan says very slowly and distinctly "You-are-quite-beautiful" Yes, Lucy is shocked, but Colin's facial expression makes me melt. I always thought his face takes on an "otherwordly" almost angelic look in this scene... (Lora) I also love the way Clive and Mackie discuss that he is a "saturation diver." Clive tries to make it sound so important but really it illustrates what a "low, bottom feeder" he is. Excellent point! (Lora) Especially the way Colin says it to her so slowly and doesn't get to the "you are quite beautiful" part right away and she thinks he is about to say, "You know what you are...you are..." and she thinks he's about to say "whore." By the way she starts performing sobriety test actions, I thought the line here was "drunk"..

Closing tags Karen)he says that he's a self-made man, which I took as someone who had worked his way up in the company and may not have had some posh university degree (Lora)You know this was the line that threw me off about Mackie. The first couple of times I saw this scene, I did think Mackie was insulting Clive, but then this line made me think that maybe something else was happening here... I think there is and we're not cracking it. DF put that clue in for a reason. I still think he is representative of someone else like Mrs. Gorman.Not just a prototype of a corporate manager of a local bus depot.

Thanks KJ. I like how the article said Mrs Gorman was an Ann Gloag lookalike. I've only seen pics of the brother. How fun! Of course, Donna Franceschild would never say "on the record" that the story was based on any real-life characters or company due to libel laws, but she would laugh while saying it. ;-)

I believe they own they're house? Maybe I misunderstood something, but I thought somewhere at the beginning there was a scene when Lucy told her landlord :" You'll get your money". But maybe I got it all wrong.

Maybe she had darker hair before? http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/people/famousfirst527.html But I wonder if the info on the brother might provide some insight in the character of Mackie: http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/people/famousfirst506.html "Born in Perth, Souter took a diploma in Commerce at Dundee College of Technology. In 1980, he established the Stagecoach bus company in Perth with his sister, Ann Gloag (b.1942), using their father's �25,000 redundancy payment." For the Americans on this board, a redundancy payment is severance for being laid off. So, they came from modest origins and were self-made people. She only graduated from high school. His college is now known as the University of Abertay Dundee; seems more vocational.

Thank you Janet for the location information. Good to know.

(Maria)By the way she starts performing sobriety test actions, I thought the line here was "drunk".. You are so right! I just rewatched that part, and I saw I had totally missed the putting her finger on her nose and walk a straight line (not walk the streets) part. And everyone who metioned it before, yes, CF's face is totally angelic when he tells Lucy she's beautiful. Love the way he gives her that one slow closure and opening of his eyelids. Donovan Quick is a-ngelic (not a lunatic)!

The Mirror:" Top Shakespearian actor Colin Firth.." Whoa...there's a guy who didn't have tickets for Hamlet..... Thanks for the article, KJ. I've never read that one. OK...correction. Mrs. Gorman is Ann Gloag, not Margaret Thatcher!!(We were close!) Windmill IRL is Stagecoach Motor Transport Co. (Karen) But I wonder if the info on the brother might provide some insight in the character of Mackie: For sure. Oh goodie...we're unravelling the mystery. LOL. Also a reason BBC shelved it. But surely they would have known the plot when they approved the film.

(KathyF)She knows men are using her but she is so lonely, and her life if so empty. Even though she sees Clive for the bastard/loser he is, she'd rather be with him than alone. So tragic! So, maybe for Lucy it was enough to just say, "C!a liveman"

(Lora)The first couple of times I saw this scene, I did think Mackie was insulting Clive, but then this line made me think that maybe something else was happening here... I still think Mackie was insulting Clive. I think the offer of washing busses after the discussion that Clive was a saturation diver and worked around water, was, IMO, a total put down. Mackie also tells Clive that he doesn't conduct business in car parks...further putting Clive in his place...in Mackie's mind, well below his own.

(Lora)Are homes passed on to the children? Obviously, if the house was privately owned, the children would have inherited it. And if it was rented from the local council, any adult children, living in the house at the time of the parents' death, would take over the tenancy. So either way, they would keep the house.

I would have thought the name Lucy was just the closest "soundalike" they dared to come up with for Dulcinea. Short of calling her "Dulcie".

A few more scenes where I think Daniel is overshadowing the Donovan character: All of these deal with Windmill beginning to fight for the Q&P bus route. 1. "This is all so predictable"..."They put another bus on the line, standard proceedure" (Daniel realizing that Windmill has put buses in front and behind the Quick and Pannick bus. And during the family meeting where Gran, Sandy, and Jim vote not to take the money but to stay and fight... 2."This is what they did in the East Midlands when they took over the Suburban Route Network...In South Hampton where they drove the Council buses off the road, and in Sussex where you won't see a bus without a Windmill logo from Brighton to London." All of this was probably public knowledge at some point, but the way in which the lines are delivered, IMO it's all Daniel. He speaks with an intimate knowledge of all of the Windmill tactics...he had been there, been a part of it.

(Linda) Donovan says very slowly and distinctly "You-are-quite-beautiful" Yes, Lucy is shocked, but Colin's facial expression makes me melt. Sorry. I tried to work that in with something really deep to say, but that's the best I could do. No need to apologize; Colin's acting is a cornerstone of these discussions. His facial expressions are always so subtle. You can tell he's seeing her soul at this point and that's what he's referring to. Colin is so good with conveying deeper emotions with few words. (Linda) Also, do we have any idea of a time frame? The flashback moments at the beginning seem to be in a room...possibly a hotel or bedroom. Then in other flasbacks, when Daniel has the suitcase with money it looks as though he is in a very nice house, which I assume was his. When was he sectioned? Did he walk out of his own free will, or did he slip away unnoticed? Obviously they were trying to locate him because of the police taking him away. We're not given a whole of information, except for what Donovan tells Lucy after he's been beaten up by Clive. He was still a free man when he was trying to "buy" atonement either from Mrs Sapas or by giving away money to the needy. Therefore, looking into the attache case with money would've been at home, I would imagine. However, listening to the radio, could've been at the facility just prior to going AWOL, which is why the police could drag him back. (Kathy) Sandy's reply is great because it shows a quality that is fairly typical of many learning disabled people. They are often amazingly astute. At the very beginning, when the lodger walks out, Sandy asks Lucy to confirm that pinching things is wrong. Sandy knows his limits, but he's far from a moron. He understands right from wrong better than most. (Lora) I remember the song Dulcinea sings on the album and I think she is a lot like Lucy in terms of how and where she seeks comfort. I don't think there is anything in the novel to support this. There is no real Dulcinea; she is merely an ideal. When they have to put a face on her, Sancho points out some plain peasant girl, who the Don rationalizes has fallen under some necromancer's spell. However, I can't find anything about her love life. (Lora) he is a "saturation diver."..."low, bottom feeder" he is. Good one! (Nita) but I thought somewhere at the beginning there was a scene when Lucy told her landlord :" You'll get your money". I expect you must mean when Donovan first shows up to see about the room Lucy initially mistakes him for someone sent to collect on money she owes. I can't make out everything she says (cue: Janet), but it isn't for rent to a landlord. Could be her bar tab? (Evelyn) Whoa...there's a guy who didn't have tickets for Hamlet..... *snort* (Evelyn) OK...correction. Mrs. Gorman is Ann Gloag, not Margaret Thatcher!!(We were close!) But in reality, they represent the same thing. (Karen) But I wonder if the info on the brother might provide some insight in the character of Mackie (Evelyn) For sure. But they're not one and the same. Mackie isn't the brother, although he may have background in common. Mackie bothers me for many reasons. Wish we could see his title on his office door. On the radio program, he is identified as a "regional executive." We know Daniel's position in the company and I'm wondering where he stands relative to Mackie, who goes to meetings with Mrs Gorman as well. From my experience, if there were an incident involving a stopped train, the police wouldn't haul them into the offices of a top exec. Someone far lower down on the food chain would handle that. (Mark) I would have thought the name Lucy was just the closest "soundalike" they dared to come up with for Dulcinea. Short of calling her "Dulcie". Precisely. Going back to the "park the salami" scene, anybody remember exactly how they felt when they saw Lucy moving toward Donovan for a kiss? ;-)

(Nita) but I thought somewhere at the beginning there was a scene when Lucy told her landlord :" You'll get your money". (Karen)I expect you must mean when Donovan first shows up to see about the room Lucy initially mistakes him for someone sent to collect on money she owes. I can't make out everything she says (cue: Janet), but it isn't for rent to a landlord. Could be her bar tab? Just to clearify. The comment of the landlord is made in the shop, when Sandy asks for a Marsbar, and Lucy say "we haven't gotten any money ....." (Karen)Going back to the "park the salami" scene, anybody remember exactly how they felt when they saw Lucy moving toward Donovan for a kiss? ;-) I allways feel jealous af anyone close enough to move for a kiss - but I will have to rewatch this particular scene to give a proper answer. Having rewatched most of the movie again, I think I have come to the conclusion, that Daniel/Donovan isn't mad at all. As someone said earlier (Dorine?) perhaps he (Daniel) is just so very struck with guilt, that he takes on the identity of Donovan to make up for prior mistakes. (Linda)All of this was probably public knowledge at some point, but the way in which the lines are delivered, IMO it's all Daniel. He speaks with an intimate knowledge of all of the Windmill tactics...he had been there, been a part of it. An excellent example of Daniel having disguised as Donovan. Another little observation/suggestion. The trainset developes from very lousy, going off track, to smootly driven with all the sorroundings to make the perfect picture (even the people, Sandy make kiss eachother). Could this be a parallel to the Pannick family, slowly finding their way back on the tracks? (I know I promised not to make apologies for my lousy english, but I really find it hard to express so complex observations/feelings as in this discussion. Nothing like drooling - I am never speechless in that direction ;-)

(Karen)Going back to the "park the salami" scene, anybody remember exactly how they felt when they saw Lucy moving toward Donovan for a kiss? ;-) Uh, would queasy be the right anwswer? I definitely enjoy his compassion and care of Lucy but can't list it as one of my top 10 erotic ODB moments in film....

Very good points about Daniel vs Donovan, Linda. (Linda) Donovan says very slowly and distinctly "You-are-quite-beautiful" Yes, Lucy is shocked, That is definitely a Donovan moment. ;-) And, going back to Karen's fav. scene: the ending. It's great to see Daniel at the train station. Bet he'll never ride a bus again. ;-))))

(Karen)Going back to the "park the salami" scene, anybody remember exactly how they felt when they saw Lucy moving toward Donovan for a kiss? ;-) (MariaT)Uh, would queasy be the right anwswer? I definitely enjoy his compassion and care of Lucy but can't list it as one of my top 10 erotic ODB moments in film.... I said out loud, "Oh no, please, not that." :) No doubt, it was a knee-jerk reaction to Colin Firth kissing her more so than the character. However, DQ kissing Lucy also gave my stomach the flip-flops. Has the question been posed about how viewers felt about them waking in the morning? Wanting to discover just 'what else' had occured between them? What did it say for them to have done nothing more physical than exchange a kiss and lay next to each other? What would it have portrayed for them to have made love? (I haven't forgetten this have I? It stands out squarely in my mind that nothing else happened.) (Annette)Having rewatched most of the movie again, I think I have come to the conclusion, that Daniel/Donovan isn't mad at all. I would tend to be swayed by this. I think he is aware of the struggle he had with the madness overtook him, but for some reason I feel that, at this point, he is able to reflect back on it, more than letting it control him. And yet, there is so much discussion about 'seeing' the one personality vs. the other in Colin's acting. Maybe it is on a conscious level that he takes on one frame of mind vs. the other. (markG)....Lucy.... Very good catch. Not having read the book, these things would pass me right by. Are there more?

(Karen)Going back to the "park the salami" scene, anybody remember exactly how they felt when they saw Lucy moving toward Donovan for a kiss? ;-) I have to give a second answer to this, having watched the scene again. Karen, I noticed the winkie so perhaps this isn't what you asked for but, my immidiate feelings were Donovan feeling totally powerless and wanting to comfort Lucy. Nothing erotic at all. In Lucy I just see total despair and the need to be comforted. (Lisa)What did it say for them to have done nothing more physical than exchange a kiss and lay next to each other? What would it have portrayed for them to have made love? (I haven't forgetten this have I? It stands out squarely in my mind that nothing else happened.) That was my impression as well, also "in thread" with the interpretation of the post-"park his salami"-scene. I don't find it likely, that they would lie that way having made love and then put their clothes back on and just keep laying on top of the bed until next morning. To me the key-words are two people comforting each other. Then again, we all know what can happen. An embrase can lead to so much more...........

(Karen)Going back to the "park the salami" scene, anybody remember exactly how they felt when they saw Lucy moving toward Donovan for a kiss? ;-) Actually, I was repulsed at first, because she had just tossed her cookies. However, it doesn't bother me that much anymore. I think the more I watch it, the more I accept and admire the change in Lucy, and for a while, the change in Daniel. (Lora)It stands out squarely in my mind that nothing else happened.) I agree, and the fact that both were still fully dressed in the same clothes-helps me put the kiss in the proper perspective, as well. We know Daniel's position in the company

(Karen)We know Daniel's position in the company Sorry for leaving that out there in my last post. What was his position? I know it had to be several wrungs above Mackie, but do we know just how far removed he was from Mrs. G? I have paused the VCR several times on the computer screen after Mackie types in Daniel Quinn. But I can't read what is on the screen.

(Lisa) Has the question been posed about how viewers felt about them waking in the morning? Wanting to discover just 'what else' had occured between them? What did it say for them to have done nothing more physical than exchange a kiss and lay next to each other? What would it have portrayed for them to have made love? (I haven't forgetten this have I? It stands out squarely in my mind that nothing else happened.) I agree. I don't think anything physical happend. He was beaten pretty badly and probably in alot of pain. I think comforting holding was all that was done.

(Karen)I can't make out everything she says Lucy's comment when she first meets Donovan: Well, if you're working for Murdo, you can tell him to piss off, I huvnae(haven't) got the money this week. I've tried stripping down at the Central(local bar?), but the guys kept shouting "Put them on!" (Lisa) Has the question been posed about how viewers felt about them waking in the morning? I thought I noticed several buttons undone on her blouse as she ran to the door when the police arrived. I agree though, I don't think they went as far as making love.

(Nita) but I thought somewhere at the beginning there was a scene when Lucy told her landlord: "You'll get your money". (Annette) The comment of the landlord is made in the shop, when Sandy asks for a Marsbar, and Lucy say "we haven't gotten any money ....." I listened again and she only mentions not being able to pay utility bills (electric, gas). (Annette) The trainset developes from very lousy, going off track, to smootly driven with all the sorroundings to make the perfect picture...Could this be a parallel to the Pannick family, slowly finding their way back on the tracks? A very nice metaphor you've picked up on. (BTW, your English is easily understandable; no need for apologies; I'm thrilled you're making the effort to participate in something not in your native language.) (Maria) Uh, would queasy be the right answer?...can't list it as one of my top 10 erotic ODB moments in film Understatement of the year! I know I jerked back much quicker than Donovan on my first viewing. ;-) As far as the bed scene, there wouldn't have been anymore than some kissing, cuddling and holding. Practically speaking, they did have their clothes still on, the bed didn't look all that rumpled but more importantly, Donovan would've wanted to show Lucy that she didn't need to let someone shag her just to be held or touched. Now, what about that kiss? Too bad it was so dark but it didn't look like his "chicken peck" variety. What does this have to say about the character's motivations or was it all Lucy? (Annette) I have come to the conclusion, that Daniel/Donovan isn't mad at all. (Lisa) I think he is aware of the struggle he had with the madness overtook him, but for some reason I feel that, at this point, he is able to reflect back on it, more than letting it control him...Maybe it is on a conscious level that he takes on one frame of mind vs. the other. He may not be mad, but he does take leave of reality at times. Daniel would never have said to Mackie the bit about trying to privitize the railways, only to be corrected that it had happened. Bwwwah, I really want an org chart of Windmill. None of the relationships makes sense from my experience. As Dorine noted, there was a sign in Port Clyde that it was "home to Windmill Transport," but at Mackie's office, the sign said Scottish Headquarters. From the meeting, he is in charge of all of Scotland region and his assistant (or next in command) attends a high-level management meeting with Mrs Gorman. If Windmill were HQ'd in the Glasgow area and Quick & Pannick were generating enough interest to be in the newspapers and on Good Morning Scotland, then you'd think a picture of Donovan would be recognized if he were at the same or a higher level within the company, even if his territory was the Home Counties. I've tried stripping down at the Central (local bar?), but the guys kept shouting "Put them on!" Thanks for the translation, Janet. It was funnier than I had expected.

(Karen) Now, what about that kiss? Too bad it was so dark but it didn't look like his "chicken peck" variety. My notes said "snog not too shabby"... When Lucy first gets Donovan on the bed and is resting her hand on his, I marveled at how tiny it looked against his! (Karen) What does this have to say about the character's motivations or was it all Lucy? Annette's comments from above answered this for me, "my immediate feelings were Donovan feeling totally powerless and wanting to comfort Lucy. Nothing erotic at all. In Lucy I just see total despair and the need to be comforted." I think he knew his Donovan days were numbered at this point..

Maybe it wasn't stated as clearly as it should... What does this have to say about the character's motivations or was it all Lucy? Looks to me like Colin is able to give a screen kiss that packs a bit more punch than his customary chicken pecks, but maybe it depends on the character he's portraying and the character's motivations. Or maybe it was just Lucy initiating a little tonsil hockey? ;-)

(Karen)Or maybe it was just Lucy initiating a little tonsil hockey? ;-) - Or maybe Katy Murphy was just enjoying her work!!

(Karen)I expect you must mean when Donovan first shows up to see about the room Lucy initially mistakes him for someone sent to collect on money she owes. I can't make out everything she says (cue: Janet), but it isn't for rent to a landlord. Could be her bar tab? I think Lucy may have thought Donovan was a 'heavy' sent by a moneylender (Murdo) to collect on a debt. (There is a problem of illegal moneylenders in some very deprived areas of cities).

Very late for this. So many good thoughts. Will just give my take on it. The first scene and final bed scene with Lucy say so much to me. 1st scene - Quinn hasn't been able to atone for his sin. The caller on the radio says to Mackey."You are the bastard that's responsible." Quinn flashes to Sappos wife. "It's you. You killed him." At that moment Quinn transfers blame to Windmill. It relieves him of the pain temporarily. He goes off to fight Windmill like Quixote. For evil to triumph it requires good people to do nothing. As Quick, he includes himself among good people. Fantasy is working for him. Everyone at Pannic House is living in their own fantasy worlds and are willing to encourage him in his (like Quixote's sidekick). Lucy is the fly in the ointment. Her challenges to his fantasies provoke the flashbacks for Quick. Lucy confesses her pain to Quick after salami comments. Quick confesses what he did to Lucy (his pain). Says that he and Windmill were responsible. They forgive one another, heal one another with a kiss. But was Quinn redeemed? Quick in final scene says to Lucy, " Don Quixote was a great madman Lucy but when he was returned to sanity he was nothing." Quinn went back to his old ways. Have other stuff but enough already.

Good to see you've joined us, Kathleen. Lots of good observations that I plan to comment on tomorrow when my mind is functioning better. Annette's train metaphor is highly intriguing. Seems like we could build upon her description of how the train set's state of affairs and evolution parallel the Pannick family's changes, and most especially Donovan's role in it.

It is crucial that nothing "more" happened when they slept together. Lucy explains how desperately she needs human contact (even to the extent of being used by Clive to get it) - and Donovan, being Don Quixote and satisfying the needs of those he comes in contact with, therefore provides exactly what she needs. Lisa: Not having read the book, these things would pass me right by. Are there more? I haven't read the book either, and indeed am indebted to Karen for the fascinating insight into the macaroni cheese scene being adapted straight from the novel - more please. However, the two main character names are obviously drawn direct (just in case it has passed anyone by somehow, Sandy Pannick is named for Sancho Panza, Don Quixote's loyal sidekick)

Is everyone okay with the very close-up view of Donovan's (CF) face while he is explaining Daniel to Lucy? My feelings are that yes, I love when he takes up the whole screen, but boy, any closer and the camera would have touched his face!

Mark - It is crucial that nothing happened when they slept together. Lucy needs human contact and Donovan provides exactly what (Lucy) needs. When I watched this I was looking at Colin's hands. She is touching him. He is not touching her. I think this scene is about a mutual healing (forgiveness), mostly his. She confessed her pain to him earlier. He now confesses his to her. After Clive beats him up while still on the floor. He says - It's over. (the fantasy). Is he Donovan or Daniel in the bed? I think Donovan is on his way out here. LeahP Yes it's amazing how riveting his face can be.

(Lisa) Not having read the book, these things would pass me right by. Are there more? Aside from the windmills? ;-) I did come across a brilliant one in Chapter 53, when the Don and Sancho meet up with the Arcadians (ideal society). DQ stands boldly in the highway, challenging to fight anyone who disagrees with this new society; he makes specific reference to the maidens, being the most courteous and beautiful. A company of horseman advance, warning him to get out of the way or their herd of bulls will trample him, which they do. DQ recognizes for the first time that they are but mere animals and not some kind of enchantment. This signals the beginning of his disillusionment return to sanity and, ultimately, to his death. Does this not sound like the vandals on the bus, who Donovan later calls "bully boys" to Mackie? Bringing in more metaphors, then, the Q&P bus would represent the new and better society, free of the evils Windmill represents, with all the passengers being enlightened people. Given the screenwriter's politics, it seems appropriate that their ultimate fare structure is to give whatever you want.

(Karen)Does this not sound like the vandals on the bus, who Donovan later calls "bully boys" to Mackie? Oh, very good Karen. If this was mere coincidence, it shouldn't be. The term "bully boys" it seems to fit. Maybe this is a good question for our Scotish translator or others in the know with UK slang. Is "bully boys" a term that is heard often?

(Karen)He may not be mad, but he does take leave of reality at times. Daniel would never have said to Mackie the bit about trying to privitize the railways, only to be corrected that it had happened. Agreed, that line about the privitization of the railways always confused me, until I think about it coming from Donovan not Daniel. (Kathleen)Is he Donovan or Daniel in the bed? I think Donovan is on his way out here. I think it was all Daniel in the bed scene. When he begins to describe the strike that caused the death of Mr. Sapros, he uses the term "pathetic little strike" I found it odd that Donovan would say something like that about a "common man" trying to go against the "windmills". Which leads me to another thought...as we get closer to the platform scene at the end...at this point was Daniel already returning to the man that he was? This fits with an earlier observation by kathleen...when he says "it's over" after Clive beats him. Donovan, it would seem, was gone for good before Lucy helped him off the floor. A little tidbit: I noticed that when Donovan and Sandy synchronize their watches in order to beat the Windmill bus to the route, Sandy uses the code Detla Quebec. I can't think of any reason for it except to further use the DQ initials. Just a little DQ trivia for down the road;-)

(Karen)However, listening to the radio, could've been at the facility just prior to going AWOL, which is why the police could drag him back. There are also bars shown on the outside of the window in view in one of the blue flashback scenes, which made me think that's when he's in the facility. (Linda)Sandy uses the code Detla Quebec I love when they do this and Donovan says, "Let's synchronize our watches." And then Sandy replies, "It's just like James Bond!" Plus timing and time is a major theme in this movie. You always see the time on the clock in the Pannick kitchen, Gran is always giving the times of the Q&P bus over the phone, and Sandy is told by Lucy to wait "under" the clock when he gets back to the station where she picks him up (thought that might have a double meaning: stand there and don't be late). (Annette)Could this be a parallel to the Pannick family, slowly finding their way back on the tracks? I love this metaphor you've discovered! It's another fantasy thing (like James Bond) that they play at but that definitely has a lot of significance and meaning too. Also when Clive is waiting for the call from Lars at the Pannick house, but Gran is doing her job as schedule "expert," I think there's a comparison being made between them. Clive says she's answering them with no clothes on. But Lucy ponts out that the customers don't know that. Whereas Clive cares more about what he looks like with push ups, muscles, and balls, (and I thought I heard about a haircut in the bar with Lucy) but he always thinks jobs are beneath him and he's too good to even do anything like that. He even changes his mind about the diving school and continues to borrow cash from Lucy.

(Annette) The comment of the landlord is made in the shop, when Sandy asks for a Marsbar, and Lucy say "we haven't gotten any money ....." (Karen)I listened again and she only mentions not being able to pay utility bills (electric, gas). You are quite right, I mistook "the lodger has gone without paying the rent" with" the landlord is going on about the rent" - so I guess we can asume they own their house. (Janet)- Or maybe Katy Murphy was just enjoying her work!! LOL - I know I would, if I ever got such a chance! (Karen).. how the train set's state of affairs and evolution parallel the Pannick family's changes, and most especially Donovan's role in it. Some observations on that: Sandy, Donovan appoints him to something director Gran find her little niche answering the phone (love it, when she slappes Clive with the newspaper, when he tries to answer) Jim gets drawn into the buisness, when Donovan askes him if he is going to help him to get the bus startet or not. After that Jim takes over the drivers seat. Lucy - well I haven't yet found the precise "turningpoint" for her. Though I also think the relationship between Jim and her improves; they start talking to eachother and not just at. (Kathleen)Mark - It is crucial that nothing happened when they slept together. Lucy needs human contact and Donovan provides exactly what (Lucy) needs. I think so too. Oops - just remembered I have to pace myself, so must put a sock in it for now.

Just wantet to throw in the towel (no gloves, mind you ;-) Having gotten to the point of the book DQ where DQ tells SP, that if he can't have the promised island, he can have Denmark! - well, lets just say, that from now on I will do with "second hand" observations from the book. Here's a little something from the illustrations of the book, which is very appropriate discussing Donovan Quick, fighting Windmill!

Great Pic Annette!! The Whirling Dirvish perhaps?

Annette, Thanks for the drawing. I agree with you about the trains too.Flashes of it being improved while they are developing the bus company. I wanted to add something about why Donovan's madness fits and is encouraged in the Pannic House. -The border who leaves at the beginning (as have 3 in 6 mos.) says that the place is a looney bin. His is an outside, presumably objective opinion of the house. Mental problems in the house Sandy - learning disabled Gran - dementia Jim - depression, eats and sleeps can't work Clive - delusional (his ship will come in) Lucy - alcoholic (but has a grip of reality when not drinking) Didn't Don Quixote suit up with armor to fight the windmill, thought that glove was symbolic of that. They couldn't put him in a full suit ala Rupert here. I'd pay to do CFs laundry Could we sponsor a contest to have Colin wash a car (mine), like he washed the bus. I'm thinking August.....wet t-shirt..... I liked Gran too. Favorite lines re: Sandy, when he was born. "I thought he was beautiful. The world is a cruel place Lucy." Lucy looks to her to maybe find some wisdom from an elder. And then Gran ruins it. Lucy tells her to get some clothes on and she says. "I don't need my hat if I'm not going out." GAAAH!

(Kathleen)Could we sponsor a contest to have Colin wash a car (mine), like he washed the bus. I'm thinking August.....wet t-shirt..... LOL This was one of the things on my list as well - though I didn't have a car in mind, I think I myself could need to be worked on with lots of foam and a sponge... A question about Lucy: Do we know, if she has a job, and if she does what kind? And a question for Janet: In the platform scene (sorry Karen) does she really say, that Sandy and his wife have a baby on the way????

(kathleen)Could we sponsor a contest to have Colin wash a car (mine), like he washed the bus. I'm thinking August.....wet t-shirt..... (Annette)LOL This was one of the things on my list as well - though I didn't have a car in mind, I think I myself could need to be worked on with lots of foam and a sponge... I love it when we digress! Oh, and I'll be glad to help sponser the contest'-)

(kathleen)Could we sponsor a contest to have Colin wash a car (mine), like he washed the bus. I'm thinking August.....wet t-shirt..... How about no shirt? I'm up for that. (Annette)LOL This was one of the things on my list as well - though I didn't have a car in mind, I think I myself could need to be worked on with lots of foam and a sponge... Being foamed, sponged and hosed by Colin. It doesn't get better than that.

(Annette) A question about Lucy: Do we know, if she has a job, and if she does what kind? Waddaya mean?...She's a chanteuse. Didn't you hear her belt out "I Will Survive";-) Wouldn't a family like that headed by single mum get gov't assistance?Rent, Mars Bars etc (I know, this ain't a documentary ...but IRL.)

Somewhere in this discussion I would like to for us to talk about the different range of emotions that Colin demonstrates in this film which ,for me, is what makes it a good film.(Certainly not the lighting!) The story is inconsequential. Obvioulsy he didn't sell himself out for the "hunk" factor which is a plus in his favor. Not a big challenge, but he needs to do more of these, IMO.

(evelyn)Wouldn't a family like that headed by single mum get gov't assistance? Definitely, and while I'm going on Aussie factoids here, the systems at some point past or present have similarities. As a single mum she would get benefits for each child under a certain age. But, I think her kids would be too old for regular benefits like that. However, she would be getting entitlements as a main caretaker for a mentally challeneged dependent. She might be on some sort of disability pension. She would probably qualify for unemployment payments, as a long as she showed she was hunting for work. Although now, here, as I understand it, you can only do that for so long before they take you and train you for something. ;) (evelyn)Somewhere in this discussion I would like to for us to talk about the different range of emotions that Colin demonstrates... I would too, but I am really going to have to go watch this film again before I can offer anything up.

(Kathleen) The caller on the radio says to Mackey." You are the bastard that's responsible." Quinn flashes to Sappos wife. "It's you. You killed him." At that moment Quinn transfers blame to Windmill. It relieves him of the pain temporarily. He goes off to fight Windmill like Quixote. This is probably the best explanation yet as to why Donovan heads for the giant (Windmill). However, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's transferring blame, but rather he's identified the real source not only for the Sapas death but the problems up in Port Clyde. (Kathleen) Is he Donovan or Daniel in the bed? I think Donovan is on his way out here. (Linda) I think it was all Daniel in the bed scene. Donovan has been on his way out since the bully boys incident on the bus. The idealism of the Quixote character was beaten out of him at that point, yet his loyalty to his lady (Dulcinea/Lucy), the highest calling for a knight-errant, is still there, as he defends her honor with Clive. Am going to try writing up something on the madness/acting angle, tying it into some information from the novel. (Linda) when he says "it's over" after Clive beats him. Donovan, it would seem, was gone for good before Lucy helped him off the floor. Pretty much, I would say, yet the tenderness and comfort he gave Lucy seem to indicate that some vestige remained. (Linda) when Donovan and Sandy synchronize their watches...Sandy uses the code Detla Quebec. I can't think of any reason for it except to further use the DQ initials. (Lora) "And then Sandy replies, "It's just like James Bond!" Very cute and adds to the adventure/quest-like nature of the story. BTW, this is a standard phonetic alphabet that is used in aviation, the military and I'm sure many other places. Over and out, Lima Kilo and Lima Delta. ;-) (Lora) Plus timing and time is a major theme in this movie. I never noticed this motif, but what do you think it means? Are we getting into surreal territory? (Lora) I think there's a comparison being made between them. Clive says she's answering them with no clothes on. But Lucy ponts out that the customers don't know that. Whereas Clive cares more about what he looks like...but he always thinks jobs are beneath him and he's too good to even do anything like that. Good point. I've always liked Lucy's comment for what it says about her protectiveness toward family members, yet it also illustrates a voice of reality vs the fantasy lives of people in that house, or looney bin. Lucy's says later that she's always known that Clive was a loser, when he accuses her of dumping him for someone who has more money, but she too chose to live with it because of what little he gave her. Did it surprise you that Clive never went to see Lars in Aberdeen but lied about it? Fear of failure or hiding from something else? (Annette) Some observations...Donovan appoints him...director, Jim gets drawn into the business, when Donovan asks him.... Good observations and I think there are more as to how integral Donovan is in getting the Pannick family back "on track" and flourishing, like that train set. Is it not precisely because of Donovan's presence in the house that everyone's lives become fuller and are turned around? I have no doubt that Donovan put Gran on the phones too, where she could make a contribution without having to put on clothes. ;-) (Annette) Having gotten to the point of the book DQ where DQ tells SP, that if he can't have the promised island, he can have Denmark! Which reminds me of Sandy/Sancho comparisons. Sancho signs on as the Don's squire on the promise of a job, i.e., the governorship of an island. While I don't see too much more in common, other than loyalty, coming to share a vision and an innate sense of good judgment, Sandy too follows his master and gets a job in the process. (Kathleen) I'd pay to do CFs laundry LOL! But it takes me back to that case of his. Didn't appear that he had all that much that needed laundering. (Kathleen) Could we sponsor a contest to have Colin wash a car (mine), like he washed the bus. I'm thinking August.....wet t-shirt As Donovan says, "no time like the present." ;-) (Linda) I love it when we digress! I'm surprised you haven't brought up the lovely Stairmaster shot. ;-) (Evelyn) I would like to for us to talk about the different range of emotions that Colin demonstrates in this film which ,for me, is what makes it a good film. Go right ahead. (Evelyn) The story is inconsequential. Obvioulsy he didn't sell himself out for the "hunk" factor which is a plus in his favor. I beg to differ on the story's significance. Something with this political message is bound to have appealed to Colin on a personal level and the excellent writing should've have appealed to him professionally, as I believe at that time he did still consider himself an actor. ;-)

(Evelyn) The story is inconsequential. Obvioulsy he didn't sell himself out for the "hunk" factor which is a plus in his favor. (Karen)I beg to differ on the story's significance... But it isn't to *me*. Sweet story and I like the Don Quijote gimmick,(hate the indoor underlighting,).. but I don't find the story riveting. With another actor, I change channels. Agree that it had all the ingredients of Colin's ideology and,don't forget...it was filmed only "up the road a piece".

(Karen)'m surprised you haven't brought up the lovely Stairmaster shot. ;-) Well now that you mention it...To digress a bit further, I love the smile when Donovan is on the street with Sandy handing out the advertisments for the bus route. The music, the smile, the energy of the walk. At that point I thought it was pure CF. I didn't see the trance like state of Donovan, or the seriousness of Daniel. It was a very uplifting moment in the film. IMHO.

Evelyn - with another actor I change channels. I'm afraid I would have been with you on this one. This discussion has helped redeem it. Obviously a lot of thought was put into it after the basic premise. The public transportation metaphor isn't too accessible to me where I live because most everyone drives. (which you can tell by all our horrible traffic). Another multinational type of company might have helped to broaden it's appeal. I don't think of the bus company as an enemy. Then to mix that metaphor with Don Quixote seems like picking one from column A and one from column B to make a movie. After knowing some particulars about the creators I can see now how they came up with the film but it was hard to access it without that info. Colin was quite brave to take it on I think. It could have turned out differently. All of the actors helped it enormously. Am also thinking about Colins range of emotions, Evelyn. Karen - Re: Clive lying about going to see Lars. Lucy says that she thinks Clive isn't hireable because he is a drunk and Lars knows that. She hit a nerve there with Clive he gets very angry and goes into denial mode.

(Linda)The music, the smile, the energy of the walk. At that point I thought it was pure CF. I didn't see the trance like state of Donovan, or the seriousness of Daniel. It was a very uplifting moment in the film. IMHO. I thought that way to. At this point, you could just lean back and enjoy HIM. I also think someone mentioned something about the extras in those scenes, you could almost sense some of the older ladies whispering: Oh look, it's Mr. Darcy. (Evelyn) I would like to for us to talk about the different range of emotions that Colin demonstrates in this film which ,for me, is what makes it a good film. I think there is plenty here to talk about. I think we se so many "faces" in very different situations. One example, when he enjoys the view from outside the Pannick house, waiting for Lucy to come home, so he can lend a room, he looks very relaxed, not tense at all. And when he is first confronted with Mackie at the trainstation, I see a little devil in his eyes, when he says Mackie surely would have remembered him. I could go on and on. I guess after about 20 viewings of the film you pick up a few expressions ;-) (Karen)Something with this political message is bound to have appealed to Colin on a personal level and the excellent writing should've have appealed to him professionally From what we have learned from his appearences and what he has chosen to reveal in articles, I think you are right.

(Karen), Sancho signs on as the Don's squire on the promise of a job, i.e., the governorship of an island. While I don't see too much more in common, other than loyalty, coming to share a vision and an innate sense of good judgment, Sandy too follows his master and gets a job in the process. To Sandy his job was the Island. Did it surprise you that Clive never went to see Lars in Aberdeen but lied about it? Crossing the fact to fiction line again. Something with this political message is bound to have appealed to Colin on a personal level and the excellent writing should've have appealed to him professionally, as I believe at that time he did still consider himself an actor. ;-) ROTF! (Lora) Plus timing and time is a major theme in this movie. (Karen), I never noticed this motif, but what do you think it means? Are we getting into surreal territory? Daniel knows that Don will not last forever. DQ in fact dies at the end.

(Annette)And a question for Janet: In the platform scene (sorry Karen) does she really say, that Sandy and his wife have a baby on the way???? Yes, she does. Dialogue: Sandy's married now. Wean (Scots for baby, pronounced 'wane') on the way as well.

(Karen) Did it surprise you that Clive never went to see Lars in Aberdeen but lied about it? Fear of failure or hiding from something else? I was somewhat surprised, considering Clive's bragging to Lucy about Lars' faith in him, but it wasn't a total shock. After all, by that point in the film Clive's true self had been revealed over and over. I had already suspected that Lars might not be glad to see Clive. The biggest surprise was that Clive actually went so far as to go to the station. (Evelyn) The story is inconsequential. Obvioulsy he didn't sell himself out for the "hunk" factor which is a plus in his favor. (Karen) I beg to differ on the story's significance. Something with this political message is bound to have appealed to Colin on a personal level and the excellent writing should've have appealed to him professionally, as I believe at that time he did still consider himself an actor. ;-) I agree totally with Karen. IMHO, CF emotionally needs roles like DQ to balance more shallow rom-coms. He was raised in an environment where taking a political stand and being active in human rights issues was important. I believe he takes films like WAGW to pay the bills, but he chooses projects like DQ because they are close to his heart.

As with everything, I am a bit late joining in.... (Linda) when Donovan and Sandy synchronize their watches...Sandy uses the code Detla Quebec. I can't think of any reason for it except to further use the DQ initials. And Donovan uses Sandy's initials...calls him something like "Sierra Popeye". I couldn't really make it out very well... (lindak) I love it when we digress! (Karen) I'm surprised you haven't brought up the lovely Stairmaster shot. ;-) Love the Stairmaster shot...and ODB saying "Keep up Sandy!" . Poor Sandy! I can imagine very few who could keep up! (lindak) I love the smile when Donovan is on the street with Sandy handing out the advertisments for the bus route. The music, the smile, the energy of the walk. At that point I thought it was pure CF. Did you notice the two younger dark haired girls? He hands a flyer to only one of them and it looks like she turns to her friend and says "OMG" as if she cannot believe Mr. Darcy handed her something. (KathyF) The biggest surprise was that Clive actually went so far as to go to the station. I thought so too! Clive was all talk and no action. I remember Lucy's reaction when Donovan tells her he will fix the paving stone in the morning. When she actually sees that it is fixed, she seems almost angry (Donovan is a man of his word, unlike Clive). There is a bit of dialogue that to me is really amazing. It is when Lucy finally states that she has a problem...and Donovan acknowledges it (or would this be Daniel? The remark, IMO, lets you know that Donovan is quite aware of the 'reality' of what is happening around him...at least at this point in the film). It is interesting to me that Clive continually tells Lucy she is a drunk, but it is Donovan's way of 'candy coating' it that makes her finally admit that she is drinking to much. L: It's your fault Sandys in hospital. Why did you tell him to chat that woman up for? If he had just shut up and kept his head down he'd been alright. D: He was in love. L: He was humilated. D: It happens in love. L: You wanna know something? You're worse than Clive. You think he's a bastard because he came here tonight and dragged me spitting and clawing onto the carpet. Well that's nothing to you coming here making me believe I deserved any better. I'm an alcoholic. I don't trip on paving stones. I don't eat dodgy pies. I get pissed. I fall down. I puke my guts up because I'm a drunk. D: I know. L: I wish you never came here.

(Lora)Plus timing and time is a major theme in this movie. Fits in beautifully with a film that includes trains. "On time" has always been a very big deal when a train is concerned. It's almost stereotypical for the old station masters to been seen waiting by the track checking their pocketwatch. And, I believe, it was the railway companies that would present their retirees with a gold pocket watch. (Tress)L: You wanna know something? You're worse than Clive. She is more angry at the one who treated her well than all the others who treated her poorly. This seems to come from Dulcinea/Aldonza in the movie Man of La Mancha. She and Lucy don't want to be treated better because they don't believe it can continue after that one person is gone. Aldonza's song says: You have shown me the sky, But what good is the sky, To a creature who'll never Do better than crawl? I highly recommend renting Man of La Mancha if you haven't already. You would be able to easily enjoy it after knowing Donovan Quick as well as we all do now. DF has done a masterful job of taking Don Quixote, written over 400 years ago, and applying the basic story to her current environment. Since Karen could find no actual Dulcinea/Aldonza in the book, she seems to have also drawn from an intimate knowledge of the musical.

(Caribou)Aldonza's song says: You have shown me the sky, But what good is the sky, To a creature who'll never Do better than crawl? Thanks Caribou!! What a fitting tie in!!

Quickie... (Tress) And Donovan uses Sandy's initials...calls him something like "Sierra Popeye". I couldn't really make it out very well... Very close. It was Sierra Papa. Over and out, Tango Mike. ;-) (Caribou) Since Karen could find no actual Dulcinea/Aldonza in the book, she seems to have also drawn from an intimate knowledge of the musical. She's an integral part of the book, the elevation of an ordinary peasant girl (Aldonza) to his ideal lady, the Empress of La Mancha. She symbolizes his immortality and perfection and is the source for his bravery, love and faith. She is based on a woman he did want to marry, Aldonza Lorenzo, but she is only a one-dimensional character. No one interacts with her. She exists mainly in his mind and, at times, Sancho will point out some village wench as Dulcinea. If DQ sees her as she is, then, he rationalizes that someone has put her under a spell. (Hey, maybe that evil necromancer is Clive? ;-)) However, it would appear that they've taken the musical's more flesh and blood representation of the ideal instead.

(Karen), it would appear that they've taken the musical's more flesh and blood representation of the ideal instead. Agreed. I guess reading that big book didn't fit into her schedule. ;-) She symbolizes his immortality and perfection and is the source for his bravery, love and faith. And Don realizes that. If he can do this one noble thing, he will remain immortalized for Lucy and the others. (Lora)Plus timing and time is a major theme in this movie. (Caribou), Fits in beautifully with a film that includes trains. "On time" has always been a very big deal when a train is concerned. And at the end, he takes the train rather than a bus.

(Evelyn) with another actor I change channels. (Kathleen) I'm afraid I would have been with you on this one. This discussion has helped redeem it. Obviously a lot of thought was put into it after the basic premise. Glad you feel this way, Kathleen, because it is a worthwhile piece on its own, unlike some other CF fare which fits Evelyn's criteria far better channel changing. ;-) However, one thing that does disturb me (and detracts from the production) is use of the musical. It's somewhat analogous to me using the Cliff Notes here, something I'm forced to do from expediency, but wouldn't if I were doing something IRL, but actually worse because the screenwriter is then relying on someone else's creation, rather than the source material. There are many flaws in that approach, as all of us know from watching movies based on novels and the changes/liberties they take for cinematic effect. What if someone had only seen the Olivier-Garson P&P? I rest my case. ;-) (Karen) Clive lying about going to see Lars. (Kathleen) Lucy says that she thinks Clive isn't hireable because he is a drunk and Lars knows that. She hit a nerve there with Clive he gets very angry and goes into denial mode. He's been in denial from the very beginning IMO as he's made up excuses and lies all along. (KathyF) The biggest surprise was that Clive actually went so far as to go to the station. And probably wasted Lucy's money on a ticket, unless he planned on buying it onboard. (Can you still do that?) (lindak) I love it when we digress! (Karen) I'm surprised you haven't brought up the lovely Stairmaster shot. ;-) (Tress) Love the Stairmaster shot...and ODB saying "Keep up Sandy!" Mine's a different one. (Tress) There is a bit of dialogue that to me is really amazing. It is when Lucy finally states that she has a problem...and Donovan acknowledges it...The remark, IMO, lets you know that Donovan is quite aware of the 'reality' of what is happening around him... Glad you brought up this scene because it is one of the strongest in the film dramatically and where we are shown that Daniel has always been there. Yet, as I've said before, Daniel is still clinging to Donovan's ideals and is going to defend his lady's honor with Clive.

(Evelyn) with another actor I change channels. (Kathleen) I'm afraid I would have been with you on this one. This discussion has helped redeem it. Obviously a lot of thought was put into it after the basic premise. (Karen)Glad you feel this way, Kathleen, because it is a worthwhile piece on its own, unlike some other CF fare which fits Evelyn's criteria far better channel changing. ;-) Agree that the discussion redeems it...(along with YKW),but without the discussion, translation of Scottish terms/slang, analogy to the classic ,personalities in the Scottish corporate world... it's still just a 'sweet' story. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. PS Also redeeming: Van Morrison.

(Tress) Love the Stairmaster shot...and ODB saying "Keep up Sandy!" (Karen)Mine's a different one OK, I give up. Which one? (Tress)D: He was in love. L: He was humilated. D: It happens in love. L I don't eat dodgy pies. I get pissed. I fall down. I puke my guts up because I'm a drunk D: I know. L: I wish you never came here. (Karen)Daniel is still clinging to Donovan's ideals and is going to defend his lady's honor with Clive Still Daniel, but delivered in the Donovan-like manner. Almost detached, non judgmental, gentle. I found this to be the way CF portrayed Donovan emotionally, a bit detached and aloof, with all of the emotion just below the surface.

I have a few quick questions. I hope it hasn't been covered before, I am trying to keep up and did not see anything regarding this: How is it Donovan can drive the bus (does he have a license for this)? What are the laws in Scotland regarding passenger vehicles? I didn't hear any reference to it in the film, and was confused because I thought if Mackey/Windmill wanted him off the route, they could have him pulled over.

(Tress) How is it Donovan can drive the bus (does he have a license for this)? What are the laws in Scotland regarding passenger vehicles? I didn't hear any reference to it in the film, and was confused because I thought if Mackey/Windmill wanted him off the route, they could have him pulled over. Excellent point! I wondered about the license (or lack of it) when I watched the first time, but then forgot all about it. What are the laws in Scotland? In the U.S., one would need a commercial license (and special training) to drive a bus.

(Linda) OK, I give up. Which one? All three of them zipping up the stairs on the bus during the musical montage for the consumer boycott of Windmill. A winner IMO for multiple rewinds. ;-) (Tress) How is it Donovan can drive the bus (does he have a license for this)? At the beginning of the first montage ("Wild Night"), you see them coming out of the Traffic Commissioner's Office, before starting to plaster the town with their flyers. I expect this is where they are registering their bus company. As for the license, Mark once answered that you'd need to have a "large vehicle" license which requires a written test, but that many people have those license as well because they've had a need to drive large vehicles. Makes sense that a man in the transportation business would have such a licence. Any other thoughts from those in the know?

After watching DQ a few times, I've noticed a repetition of a visual effect in this movie -- the use of bars or grids in several scenes. In the first scene where we hear the radio call-in show about train schedules, Daniel is sitting in a room with venetian blinds that look almost like bars. In a later scene, Lucy talks to Sandy about the new train timetable (discovering that no trains stop between 7:12 and 13:56) and Donovan eavesdrops, as we see him through the staircase, shown as a series of vertical bars. In the following flashback scene, after Mr. Sappo is killed, Mrs. Sappo says to Daniel, "It's you, isn't it? You killed him! It's you, it's you! You're the one!" and behind him is a grid of bars, as if he were in a cage. Next we see Daniel in the facility, with actual bars on the windows. This scene blends almost seamlessly with the next shot, in which Donovan enters Sandy's room through some barred doors (with windows behind), to join Sandy in playing with the train set. There are other interesting visual repetitions -- arches, combinations of arches and verticals, that must have been intentional. These include such commonplace items as a laundry basket, shutters, stairs, etc. However, the bars and things that look like bars are probably most important to the plot. I was also struck by the similarity between the bed in Donovan's room at the Pannick house, and the bridge in the playground where Daniel confronts Mrs. Sappo (when he tries to give her the money). Has anybody else noticed these things, and if so, what are your thoughts as to their meaning?

(Tress) She is more angry at the one who treated her well than all the others who treated her poorly... In my opinion Lucy has suffered a life-time of mental and physical abuse. If not through a husband through those around her. When that happens it's very hard for someone to accept kind treatment. There's a comfort in dealing with what you are used to, giving credence to some of her life-choices i.e. Clive, alcohol, and an extreme discomfort in dealing with something you're not used to, even if it is something nice and for your betterment. She has to want to raise her standards.

I saw Lucy Pannick dancing at 10 Downing Street last night....anybody else see her :-)))))

The people who did commented on Odds & Ends.

Ah, but I saw Lucy Pannick masquerading as a hotel receptionist called Helen during an episode of Midsomer Murders on Friday.

(FanPam)In my opinion Lucy has suffered a life-time of mental and physical abuse. If not through a husband through those around her. I love her lines when she's explaining that her mother died and left her to care for Gran and her brother. She's says that they should have killed her right then and there and cut out the middle men. LOL! Probably every female caught in the "sandwich" feels that way from time to time. :-)

(Tress) How is it Donovan can drive the bus (does he have a license for this)? What are the laws in Scotland regarding passenger vehicles? I believe you need a PSV (Passenger Service Vehicle) licence, and have to possess a standard drivers licence, and then sit a separate driving test, to obtain one. At least my brother-in-law had to around ten years ago - don't know if the regulations have changed since then.

Annette - Waiting for Lucy to come home, he looks very relaxed. I could see relaxed but also a little madness, mania. Thanks for all the info about MOLM tie-ins Karen. Adds another layer.I'm king of the world syndrome. Evelyn - Van Morrison also redeeming There are several CF films w/Van (I am big fan too). His music is as passionate as CFs films. A good match. Must be a coincidence. BJD, Fever Pitch and this one. Am I missing any? I was thinking about that bed scene w/Lucy again. After it, the Pannic household goes to the hospital and waits three hours to see DQ. They are filmed against a stark background. I read this as Donovan's dysfunctional family Vs. the real family (his wife) who is allowed to go right in to see him. Lucy looks as though in some strange sense she feels like his wife. Did anyone else get that idea? That some sort of tenuous relationship developed in her mind from the closeness (kiss) they shared in the bed scene? She looks disappointed to see that he has a wife.

Oops. Meant King of the world syndrome to address description of Donovan looking at harbor before Lucy comes home . (Annette's comment). Not Karen's info. Annette- Waiting for Lucy to come home, he looks very relaxed. I could see relaxed but also a little madness, mania. I'm king of the world syndrome.

During my most recent viewing of DQ, I heard a lot of background noises I hadn't noticed before: When Lucy is counting Donovan's money and Clive is simultaneously counting his push ups there's a vacuum cleaner noise in the background. Could Gran be vacuuming? Or maybe she's still watching her cars on the telly. ;-) I don't think it's a train going by. But there are always trains that can be heard going by just outside their house morning and night. When Donovan brings his Maccaroni Cheese dishes to the kitchen a train can be heard in the background and the kitchen clock says it's 6:05 (must be pm - since the Maccaroni would be dinner not breakfast). When Lucy is in her "fragile state" and Donovan helps her take "little sips" and tells her "you look like you need looking after," you can hear wind blowing in the background (is he tilting at a windmill here? ;-P And when Clive comes to the Pannick house after not going to Aberdeen and lying about it, you can hear a clock ticking in the background. For Clive, time is about to run out for him in the Pannick house. I'm impressed with the way that Donovan/the script (after they synchronize their watches), has Sandy go to the bus yard to read the bus destinations - not Donovan. With every responsibility Donovan gives him, Sandy is more outspoken and resourceful. By the way there is an enlargement of an old movie poster (from the 20's?) in the antique store where Donovan and Sandy buy Sandy's portable ticket machine. Does anyone know what movie it is from? I thought it might have some significance.

(KathyF) I've noticed a repetition of a visual effect in this movie...Next we see Daniel in the facility, with actual bars on the windows. I've gone back over and haven't seen any bars on windows. :-( But the production design was well thought out. We've all complained about the dark scenes within the Pannick house with a single point of light illuminating the action. But that was deliberate. At the Q&A session, DonnaF explained that the art director wanted the look of an Edward Hopper painting and don't those just scream loneliness, despair and isolation? One effect I particularly like is the use of reflective images in mirrors (rear view and side mirrors of the bus) and then again in the window of Mackie's office, where you can see Donovan's initial reaction to Mackie's buyout offer. (Kathleen) There are several CF films w/Van...BJD, Fever Pitch and this one. Am I missing any? Out of the Blue's opening credits are set to "Real Real Gone." I'm pretty sure a second is used in it, but don't know the name. Have been meaning to identify it one of these days. (Kathleen) the Pannic household goes to the hospital and waits three hours to see DQ. They are filmed against a stark background. Another great visual. The antiseptic starkness of the impersonal world, which dwarfs them. (Kathleen) Lucy looks as though in some strange sense she feels like his wife....That some sort of tenuous relationship developed in her mind from the closeness (kiss) they shared in the bed scene? She looks disappointed to see that he has a wife. Wouldn't you? ;-) All kidding aside, though, if Lucy felt like there was something more than friendship with Donovan, then she'd have to acknowledge the truth in Clive's words (Do you think he'd take you home to meet his mummy, etc.?) Lucy's such a realist that I can't believe she fantasized to that degree. I would have, but... ;-) Speaking of Clive, right after he says he goes down with nothing in his stomach except liver salts, what's his next line, Janet? I've had David O'Hara groups ask me about it and they've debated it for ages.

(Karen) One effect I particularly like is the use of reflective images in mirrors (rear view and side mirrors of the bus) and then again in the window of Mackie's office, where you can see Donovan's initial reaction to Mackie's buyout offer. I had the bit about the reflection in Mackie's office in my notes...I was going to say that I though the reflection had a bluish tint to it (but this may be fanciful thinking on my part as I don't know how they would make it blue)...I like that you can see Donovan's reaction, but it is very interesting if this was done on purpose, do you think both Donovan and Daniel are meant to be present at that moment (or are we just supposed to see how Donovan reacts to Mackie)?

(Kathleen) Lucy looks as though in some strange sense she feels like his wife. Did anyone else get that idea? That some sort of tenuous relationship developed in her mind from the closeness (kiss) they shared in the bed scene? She looks disappointed to see that he has a wife. Or perhaps, my opinion only, realizing and appreciating what he has done for her and her family and wanting to be there to support him out of gratitude. I do indeed believe she was surprised to learn of the wife but from the standpoint that he had never mentioned her rather than the fact that she felt she was his wife. Until the bedroom scene IMO they did not seem close enough to warrant that type of relationship. (Karen) All kidding aside, though, if Lucy felt like there was something more than friendship with Donovan, then she'd have to acknowledge the truth in Clive's words (Do you think he'd take you home to meet his mummy, etc.?) Lucy's such a realist that I can't believe she fantasized to that degree. I would have, but... ;-) I agree 100%. Lucy is an extreme realist and not a person given to fights of fancy or dillusions. To Lucy a spade is very much a spade. She is very well aware that they could never have a relationship. It would take much more than a night of comfort and a kiss to convince her of anything more.

(Tress)do you think both Donovan and Daniel are meant to be present at that moment? Interesting observation!. It would be the only time they are "on screen" at the same time. Must rewatch for bluish tint in reflection! Never noticed that before. (Karen)I've gone back over and haven't seen any bars on windows. :-( The bars are not in every blue flashback scene, but they can be seen in one when Daniel is sitting on a bed (?). He is on the left side of screen and the window is right center, but I will watch again to give you exact time and place.

(Lora), But there are always trains that can be heard going by just outside their house morning and night. When Donovan brings his Maccaroni Cheese dishes to the kitchen a train can be heard in the background So we can say that Don picked Lucy's house because of its proximity to the train station. An easy escape for DQ. Which might bring us to his DQ/Daniel state as a coherent choice for Daniel.

Upon reviewing, the window with the bars is not in a blue scene after all. It's comes right after a blue scene which is realy a nightmare that Donovan is having in the "Pannick" room (a great name for the room to let ;-)). So it just looks like one. Donovan has just had a (blue scene) dream about his Daniel encounter with Sapas' wife when she is bending over her husband in the street. She turns to Daniel and says, "It's you, isn't it?" Then she slaps him, and then says, "you killed him. It's you, it's you." Then you immediately see Donovan awake in bed at the Pannick house in a sweat. He's in the same pajamas that you see him in when he goes down to Sandy's train room (where, as Kathy pointed out, there are also bars to his left). And the bars of Donovan's window (at Pannick house) are visible again when Lucy goes to clean and snoop in Donovan's room. The film quality must have made me think it was one continuous blue scene. Karen, you are right when you said that you couldn't find any bars on the blue scene windows. The windows in the blue scene at the beginning of the film during the radio broadcast are in a different room with blinds and maybe that's his bedroom at his own house or the facility. Also the reflection of Donovan at Mackie's (second?) office (in the window) is amazing. Great find, Tress. It does have a bluish window tint to it and looks like Donovan coming face to face with Daniel, if only for a split second. It's as if Donovan has to look Daniel straight in the eyes (confront his past) in order to go on with the quest - to know that it is the right thing to do. Daniel might have taken the money Mackie offers to buy him out with, but Donovan feels that that's giving into the big corporation - and so the battle commences! Hope I haven't rambled too much. There is so much to try to articulate.

(Tress) do you think both Donovan and Daniel are meant to be present at that moment? No, I don't think that's the purpose or even has a deep purpose. Just a cute technique. If anything, I'd say they wanted to get across the fact that we're seeing a reflection of a person. (Lora) And the bars of Donovan's window (at Pannick house) are visible again when Lucy goes to clean and snoop in Donovan's room. No older homes where you guy live? When he awakes at night, they may look like bars, but as you can clearly see when Lucy comes into to snoop, they are multi-paned windows.

(Pam)It would take much more than a night of comfort and a kiss to convince her of anything more. Yes, as far as a relationship was concerned, but I think a night of comfort combined with Donovan's belief in their self-worth went a long way.

(Karen)Speaking of Clive, right after he says he goes down with nothing in his stomach except liver salts, what's his next line, Janet? Dialogue: That's how good I am! Then: What am I going to do, peaches? BTW, Clive's accent is about as strong as you would get in the West of Scotland! But I have yet to meet a working class Scotsman with the name Clive - he just would never live it down! DF certainly didn't do her homework there.

(Tress) do you think both Donovan and Daniel are meant to be present at that moment? (Karen)No, I don't think that's the purpose or even has a deep purpose. I think maybe I got too excited about the reflection in Mackie's office. Always looking for symbolism... Btw, why does Mackie have 2 offices? The first one that Donovan and Sandy go to after pulling the emergency cord is much smaller than the second one where Donovan sees his reflection. Is the first one a station instead where they have brought Donovan and Sandy and asked Mackie to meet them? Thanks, Janet, for all the helpful translations. Interesting about Clive's name not being typical. Why would he never live it down IRL? Does it mean something? It does rhyme with dive, like Mackie and lackey ;-).

(Lora) Interesting about Clive's name not being typical. Why would he never live it down IRL? Does it mean something? I just looked up Clive's name (meaning)..."From a steep cliff". Donovan ("dark warrior") and Daniel ("God is my judge")...I too, thought maybe it meant something else, if it is such an odd name in Scotland. Maybe something from Don Quixote. Does anyone know? I haven't gotten very far in the book. And thanks Janet...appreciate the help!

(Lora)Interesting about Clive's name not being typical. Why would he never live it down IRL? Does it mean something? It does rhyme with dive, like Mackie and lackey ;-). Hope I don't offend anyone! I think it's seen in Scotland as a typically English middle-class name, with no historical or other relevance in Scotland.

(me) I've noticed a repetition of a visual effect in this movie...Next we see Daniel in the facility, with actual bars on the windows. (Karen) I've gone back over and haven't seen any bars on windows. :-( (Lora) Upon reviewing, the window with the bars is not in a blue scene after all. It's comes right after a blue scene which is realy a nightmare that Donovan is having in the "Pannick" room (a great name for the room to let ;-)). So it just looks like one. Like Lora, I was 'fooled' by the darkness of the scene, and thought it was part of a flashback. Either that, or I'm just blind. At any rate, I'm sorry if I caused you (or anyone else) to waste your (their) time. I was mainly interested in the repetition of bars and grids, and thought perhaps someone else might be, too. Guess not. ;-) But the production design was well thought out. We've all complained about the dark scenes within the Pannick house with a single point of light illuminating the action. But that was deliberate. At the Q&A session, DonnaF explained that the art director wanted the look of an Edward Hopper painting and don't those just scream loneliness, despair and isolation? That's interesting! And one of Hopper's most famous paintings is "House by a Railroad."

Thanks, Janet, for the confirmation re: Clive's line. That was always my guess as well. (Lora) And when Clive comes to the Pannick house after not going to Aberdeen and lying about it, you can hear a clock ticking in the background. For Clive, time is about to run out for him in the Pannick house. Love this one. I will have to check this out. (Lora) an old movie poster (from the 20's?) in the antique store They look to be silent movie era actors, but I don't recognize any of them. Was there an actual movie poster? (Lora) Always looking for symbolism... Aren't we all. But as my erudite lurker keeps reminding me, sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. ;-) (Lora) why does Mackie have 2 offices?...Is the first one a station instead where they have brought Donovan and Sandy and asked Mackie to meet them? My guess is the security office. I've never found it particularly believable that someone of Mackie's rank would be called in to deal personally with two troublemakers, and Security would definitely not bring them up to his office. It just isn't done. (Tress) Maybe something from Don Quixote. Does anyone know? I couldn't find anyone even vaguely similar to Clive, which makes sense since Dulcinea isn't a real character. I thought he might be some sort of composite of DQ's various adversaries, but that doesn't help with the name. Perhaps he's based on someone from the musical too? BTW, I liked those definitions. v.g. (KathyF) I was mainly interested in the repetition of bars and grids, and thought perhaps someone else might be, too. Guess not. ;-) We're interested in all observations, as they always seem to lead us into all sorts of interesting areas. It turns out that yours might not be very far off anyway, especially with the Hopper info on House by the Railroad. I found this on the WebMuseum website: "Hopper frequently used a straight. horizontal motif, usually a road or railroad track. to construct the space within the picture and to emphasize the division between the picture space and the viewer's world. Indeed, the more the viewer tries to penetrate the depths of a Hopper painting, the more impenetrable it becomes. What holds the viewer is that the artist's vision seems under control and yet, on closer inspection, the viewer realizes that the visible surface is a tissue of improbabilities and unreadable shifts in space. Hopper's view that nature and the contemporary world were incoherent contributed to his artistic vision."

(Lora)For Clive, time is about to run out for him in the Pannick house. Good one..Someone pl. help me out here....(love the Scottish dialect, but have a real hard time making it out.) I know something is said about Clive's divorce. Does he go back to his wife?

(MoonD) So we can say that Don picked Lucy's house because of its proximity to the train station I thought he had picked the card with the Pannick address off the bulletin board in the shop before he saw its location. So would he have known that trains went by there?

(Evelyn)Does he go back to his wife? I'm pretty sure, that in one of his last scenes with Lucy he tells her, that he has left Caro. When Lucy sort of tells him, she doesn't want him, he asks something about where he is to go then. (I haven't seen it for a few days, and my memory isn't what it used to be). (Karen)But as my erudite lurker keeps reminding me, sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. ;-) I must admit, I have a tendency to follow that line as well. So many observations and suggestions as to what it all means. I enjoy it very much, just can't keep up for the time being. Janet - here's one for you. I think you asked earlier, where you had heard Peaches before. Well, I see this jar every time I open my refrigerator, and every day it makes me think of you (and Clive). Not together or anything - I hope you get the point ;-)

(Annette)I'm pretty sure, that in one of his last scenes with Lucy he tells her, that he has left Caro Yes, Clive does say that he has left Caro. He says something to the effect that he has given up everything for her, I assumed he meant his marriage. This scene always makes me want to tell his soon to be ex-wife how lucky she is.

(Karen)They look to be silent movie era actors, but I don't recognize any of them. Was there an actual movie poster? You're right, it is not a poster just silent movie era actors who are just silent movie era actors ;-). (WebMuseum/Karen)to emphasize the division between the picture space and the viewer's world. Indeed, the more the viewer tries to penetrate the depths of a Hopper painting, the more impenetrable it becomes. Kathy, thanks for mentioning this painting and, Karen, thanks for posting it. Hopper's "House by the Railroad" has a lot of the same attributes as the Pannick house: beides the large window panes and being by the railroad, it is also a place that Donovan "tries to penetrate" in order to help those who live there to a better life, yet the more he tries the more his quest falls apart. But at the end of the film (with Lucy on the platform) maybe he has helped them become more successful. (Annette)every time I open my refrigerator Any salami parked nearby the Peaches? ;-);-) (sorry couldn't resist or maybe this is what you meant?;-))

I know how difficult it must be for any non-Scots to follow Clive's dialogue, but his wife's name is actually Carol. (It's pronounced something like 'Carow' in West of Scotland dialect.) (Annette)every time I open my refrigerator And I can't help smiling every time I hear Clive call Lucy 'Peaches', 'cos it reminds me of a certain other couple! - Perhaps a bit better matched in love?

Hey, I have been reading everything from the discussion, but I can't really offer new insights, so I want to say thanks for all the posts, I have really gotten a lot more out of this film from what I have learned from you all. Peaches! When I saw this film on TV and taped it, it was right when the chapter was being written about Peaches! And, I nearly changed the whole thing because of what it made me think of. I had forgotten that!

(Lisa)Peaches! When I saw this film on TV and taped it, it was right when the chapter was being written about Peaches! Ah, so this is what you all are referring to. Sorry, Lisa, I must read your stories. DH will think I've completely lost it, if I spend any more time here on the computer. So I've been putting it off even though I've heard they are so great. But there's no time like the present (staying on subject ;-)). Will have to move into 172.

(Lora) Any salami parked nearby the peaches? Very funny Lora! (Lisa) Peaches! And, I nearly changed the whole thing bacause of what it made me think of. I can't think of a less appropriate nickname for Lucy. Poor Katy Murphy. I wonder if this film affected her own self-esteem, after the awful insults that were hurled at her day in and day out by the Clive character.

(Lisa)I have really gotten a lot more out of this film from what I have learned from you all. Ditto. But I'm not sure I liked it more when I thought he was mad. Somehow re-inventing himself as Donovan doesn't have the same appeal; seems fraudulent... Charles Abingdale in Port Clyde;-)

(Lora)Ah, so this is what you all are referring to. Sorry, Lisa, I must read your stories. DH will think I've completely lost it, if I spend any more time here on the computer. So I've been putting it off even though I've heard they are so great. Thank you so much. I felt so stupid, not understanding any of the references to Peaches. Will also have to devote some time to fanfic. (Lora)Any salami parked nearby the Peaches? ;-);-) (sorry couldn't resist or maybe this is what you meant?;-)) LOL I didn't dare post anything about the salami after my little accident with play dough. After that we only have sliced salami in our fridge;-)

Just heard on the way home that Terry Gross will be interviewing Terry Gilliam today on "Fresh Air" (on NPR) about his movie on Don Quixote. I believe this is the film that Dorine posted about a while back. Thought it may add some insight our DQ discussion. It's on at 12 noon in South Florida.

(Evelyn) But I'm not sure I liked it more when I thought he was mad. Somehow re-inventing himself as Donovan doesn't have the same appeal; seems fraudulent... I've been MIA for this discussion so far -- but as others have said, I've been following along and gaining lots from all of you...thanks! But I was googling yesterday (for something else entirely) and saw this quote ...I love serendipity... "El es un entreverado loco, lleno de lucidos intervalos." (He's an intermittant fool, full of lucid intervals.) - Miguel de Cervantes, "Don Quixote" So Evelyn, if I'm following you, you're bothered by the possibility that Donovan was an act of Daniel's, put on with some deliberation. I'd have to re-read to see if that is the general consensus but it looks like the framework of the book will also support him moving back and forth between the two and allows for periods of Donovan being dominant and vice versa. I'm not saying two personalities. He knew to accomplish what his mania drove him to, Daniel needed to be hidden (they would be looking for him) so he created Donovan. During the discussion of him being sectioned, it occurred to me a catalyst for it might have been his apparent stalking of the family...isn't that what it looked like if you think about it? If the widow (sorry - I don't remember her name right) complained, that would have been a strong red flag he was in trouble. Also, the money he had was mentioned as an indicator he was lucid and knew what he was doing--liquidating his assets. But he had all that money he offered to the widow...withdrawing it to give it to her would not necessarily have been the work of a rational man. Do we know whether he had more than that? Perhaps that became his getaway stake.

(Cervantes)(He's an intermittant fool, full of lucid intervals.) What a great summation of the Donovan/Daniel dilemma. Excellent points, barb. (Evelyn)Somehow re-inventing himself as Donovan doesn't have the same appeal; seems fraudulent... It would seem fraudulent if it were deliberate. I don't think it was. I don't think Daniel consciously re-invented himself as Donovan. Rather,the Donovan personna emerged to help Daniel cope with the trauma and grief that he was experiencing. I don't feel that Daniel was a raving lunatic either, and going back to the symptoms that Dorine posted at the beginning of the discussion, this was a temporary condition. It didn't necessarily mean that the Donovan/Quixhote character was in command like a multiple personality-type disorder, or that Daniel could turn it on and off at will. IMHO, of course.

closing tags, sorry

"El es un entreverado loco, lleno de lucidos intervalos." (He's an intermittant fool, full of lucid intervals.) - Miguel de Cervantes, "Don Quixote" Great find, Barb! Definitely worth the wait. Throughout most of the book, Quixote is made to look like the fool, but he later becomes a tragic hero. (BarbS) but it looks like the framework of the book will also support him moving back and forth between the two and allows for periods of Donovan being dominant and vice versa. I'm not saying two personalities. He knew to accomplish what his mania drove him to, Daniel needed to be hidden (they would be looking for him) so he created Donovan. I see Daniel as someone who is prone to "flights of fancy." He is, by definition, quixotic, which doesn't mean he has forgotten everything he's ever learned or known but that he filters knowledge or reality through his imagination and rationalizes it within his own view of an ideal world. We all perceive things with our senses and that's our reality. Donovan sees things through his mind and make them into whatever he sees works within the framework of his ideals. When he's confronted with a wrong, he calls upon his noble identity because only a person like that has the moral fiber to deal with it. (BarbS) the money he had was mentioned as an indicator he was lucid and knew what he was doing--liquidating his assets. Just for the record, ladies, he didn't "liquidate" his assets; he withdrew his "liquid assets." There is a difference. He took out whatever he had in the bank. (BarbS) withdrawing it to give it to her would not necessarily have been the work of a rational man. And then giving it away to whomever on the streets is precisely why Daniel's wife initiated proceedings to have him sectioned and the authorities would easily accept that as proof of some sort of insanity. (Linda) I don't think Daniel consciously re-invented himself as Donovan. Rather, the Donovan personna emerged to help Daniel cope with the trauma and grief that he was experiencing. But I think that runs counter to the original story of a man who read the books first and knew there were once people who fought for the oppressed and were guided by a strong sense of right and wrong, had ideals, had vision.

(Linda) I don't think Daniel consciously re-invented himself as Donovan. Rather, the Donovan personna emerged to help Daniel cope with the trauma and grief that he was experiencing. Hmmmm interesting. So you think the Donovan persona was a catharsis...an atonement, perhaps. Rather than a vindication against Windmill. Could be. I rather like the ambiguity in all of this.

(Karen)But I think that runs counter to the original story of a man who read the books first and knew there were once people who fought for the oppressed and were guided by a strong sense of right and wrong, had ideals, had vision. Not necessarily. From what we know and see, Daniel was going to cope with the trauma in some way outside of himself. Having read the book may have simply been the catalyst or the trigger in determining what type of personna was going to emerge to help him cope with this. That, combined with the type of incident that caused the trauma...enter Don Quixote/Donovan. How do we know that Daniel hadn't read the book earlier in life, before Windmill? Once the incident happens, the memory of DQ begins to surface and Donovan emerges? Just speculation, of course. (Evelyn)Hmmmm interesting. So you think the Donovan persona was a catharsis...an atonement, perhaps. Now that you put it that way, yes. Exactly. Thanks, Evelyn.

(Evelyn)Hmmmm interesting. So you think the Donovan persona was a catharsis...an atonement, perhaps. Now that you put it that way, yes. Exactly. Thanks, Evelyn. I agree. IMO Donovan was Daniel's attonement. Although he did some irrational things, i.e. handing money out to poor. Could this not be the actions of a man totally devastated and guilt-ridden for what he had done. Further complicated by the fact that he tried to attone and his efforts rejected by his victim's family. Perhaps he realized he could not attone, or ease his guilt, in the Daniel personna. Therefore the arrival of Donovan. He planned with clarity his escape as well as the withdrawal of his liquid assets and I also feel he planned Donovan as a means of recouping himself and allowing himself the freedom to make attonement for the terrible wrong he had done. IMO he did not have two personalities. I feel he always knew who he was and what he was doing.

(Barb)He's an intermittent fool, full of lucid intervals I was hoping someone else would bring this up (unless they already did) but wasn't Don Quixote supposed to be a comedy originally, where DQ goes off and has mad adventure after adventure (serialized) but returns to sanity in the village every so often? That ties in with Daniel/Donovan's comment about Don Quixote being a great madman but was nothing when he returned to sanity. Also I heard about a Sundance movie this year which was about trains described as a metaphor for the interconnections of people's lives. Bingo, DQ.

(Pam)Perhaps he realized he could not attone, or ease his guilt, in the Daniel personna. Therefore the arrival of Donovan. Atonement was not acceptable (read: "accepted") as Daniel.Therefore, he goes into Donavan mode. Just as an afterthought, who else thinks that Daniel was 'missing a microchip too';-)

(Evelyn) Just as an afterthought, who else thinks that Daniel was 'missing a microchip too';-) I agree with you and posed same question earlier in discussion. I don't think Daniel was 100% to begin with.

(Pam)I don't think Daniel was 100% to begin with. (Evelyn) Just as an afterthought, who else thinks that Daniel was 'missing a microchip too';-) How far back are we going with this question? Are you thinking he wasn't right even before the trauma?

I did get to listen to "Fresh Air" (with Barbara Bogave in for Terry Gross) and a couple things stood out to me in terms of helping with understanding DQ, the film: Terry Gilliam said that the novel Don Quixote is about a man's "last chance to make the world as interesting as he dreams it to be." And that in the novel, Don Quixote saw the windmills as giants (i.e. giant people) which is another similarity between the novel and film with Windmill Transport being a giant corporation. Gilliam's film "The Man Who Killed Don Quixote" never got made because the man who was to play him got very sick (French actor, Jon Rushforte (sp?)). They wanted to wait for him because he was an excellent equestrian and that's what Gilliam wanted for the film. So maybe when they remake it (Gilliam wants to - just has to get the rights to the script again from the insurance company) why don't they ask CF who is an excellent rider? I don't think Daniel was 100% to begin with. I agree. Just look at the way he told drivers not to stop for strikers. Danie's our madman and, like Pam says, in his desire to finally atone for what he did he creates/becomes Donovan, his last chance to make things right.

(Pam)I don't think Daniel was 100% to begin with. (Evelyn) Just as an afterthought, who else thinks that Daniel was 'missing a microchip too';-) (Linda)How far back are we going with this question? Are you thinking he wasn't right even before the trauma? I think a mental health professional would have to give you a proper answer. I won't try. Except to say that most[normal] people wouldn't give the original order nor respond to the consequences in that manner.

(Evelyn) Except to say that most [normal] people wouldn't give the original order nor respond to the consequences in that manner. Good point, but then it also brings up the mental stability of the man who actually drove the bus! He needs a bit of help himself...sounds like the entire organization could use a 'mental health expert' on staff! ;-)

(Karen) But I think that runs counter to the original story of a man who read the books first and knew there were once people who fought for the oppressed and were guided by a strong sense of right and wrong, had ideals, had vision. (Linda) Not necessarily....Daniel was going to cope with the trauma in some way outside of himself. Having read the book may have simply been the catalyst or the trigger in determining what type of personna was going to emerge to help him cope with this. That, combined with the type of incident that caused the trauma...enter Don Quixote/Donovan. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. The traumatic incident and resultant guilt, I believe, caused him to take refuge in the book (having read it before). He tried to emulate Quixote for the good he was attempting to do for the oppressed, all of which would help Daniel atone. Don Quixote was a "great" madman. (Lora) Terry Gilliam said that the novel Don Quixote is about a man's "last chance to make the world as interesting as he dreams it to be." I'd be careful here. This is one man's interpretation of what DQ is about (like the musical Man of La Mancha) and may not relate at all to what the screenwriter thinks. I have some good comments from DonnaF that I was planning on unleashing fairly soon. (Pam) I don't think Daniel was 100% to begin with. (Lora) Just look at the way he told drivers not to stop for strikers. (Evelyn) most [normal] people wouldn't give the original order nor respond to the consequences in that manner. Lordy! Lordy! What are you talking about? Giving orders not to allow the strikers to impede their operation is not the sign of a person with a screw loose. That happens all the time when there are strikes or protests. First off, Daniel's order wasn't given directly to the driver; he wasn't even there when it happened. Daniel however did feel responsible, but he certainly didn't tell the driver to run somebody over. Protest lines are broken all the time. Usually, the people will back off when confronted with a heavy object like a truck. Upper management sets policy; it is up to others to deal with the tactical part. There are many tactical options that should've been explored and maybe had. Were the protesters on private property? Why didn't they have the police haul them away? Did Sapas throw himself under the wheels of the truck? There are such things as peaceful protests and nonpeaceful protests and people can get hurt in the latter. We don't know how this one went down. I've been mulling over Daniel's position at Windmill and decided that Mackie was actually higher up than him. At the beginning of the film, the radio guy calls Mackie a regional executive of the Port Clyde-based Windmill Transport. At the meeting with Mrs Gorman, Mackie has all of Scotland Region. This leads me to believe that Windmill was organized by regions. In which case, Daniel, who has the title of Executive Director - Home Counties Division, may have been part of a larger London (or SE England) Region, and the person heading up that region would've attended meetings with Mrs Gorman. Because the Home Counties Division itself may in all likelihood be more significant than all of Scotland Region given the population density, Daniel may actually have attended higher levels meetings at times with his boss or done presentations. That is how Mackie might have known him.

(Karen) Giving orders not to allow the strikers to impede their operation is not the sign of a person with a screw loose. That happens all the time I've started to comment along these lines before but wanted to go back to hear the specific order first (which would not necessarily have been exactly what was communicated to the drivers in any case.) Management's general direction not to let the strikers stop the buses is not an unreasonable direction. I don't mean to over generalize, but any manager directing people can put a chain of events into motion which might end up being tragic and how would one react? For instance, as a Human Resources rep, I might advise a manager to put an employee on final warning for continued refusal to work overtime -- which we tell candidates is a condition of employment. What if that person did not work available OT because they were always home to meet their child's bus and there was an accident because they were not there that day? How would I react? I don't know. Maybe if I knew if and where I had specific microchips missing, I could guess. ;-) Karen's placement of Daniel as a more middle level manager adds to my sense of him as just someone filling their role and going about the normal course of business. Obviously somehow, for those involved, he became the face of Windmill and the focal point for their anger, and it seems as if Windmill left him to the wolves. They might want to disassociate from him and from the order because of the liability and the public relations stink. Anyway, enough on that point, I'm still kinda thinking it through and welcome other comments. On another point, I find it interesting that his real life and fantasy life initials were both DQ. I know there's been debate over whether he had read the book before. If he had, he must have made more than passing note that his initials and Don Quixote's were the same. I've been leaning toward him not having read it first though...his book was a library book and when Lucy opens it, there is a book mark in the middle of the book. Maybe he did not know how it ended? But does all this mean that if his name had been Ronald Hughes, he would have chosen Robin Hood instead? Just wondering. :-)

(BarbS) it seems as if Windmill left him to the wolves. They might want to disassociate from him and from the order because of the liability and the public relations stink. In what way did you get the impression that Windmill had "left him to the wolves"? Unfortunately, none of us had a photographic memory when we saw it on the big screen and could only take in a limited amount of information in the brief time shown. However, I found it interesting that Daniel's personnel record had a field labeled "Medical Diagnosis" and hypomania filled in. With all the privacy laws in the US, I wouldn't think you'd find such info in a personnel record, only something like Current Status: Disability (either long or short term) or Active. It is a shame that we couldn't find that field or another which might have shown Date of Separation, but it would appear that he could easily still be in Windmill's employ but on medical leave. (BarbS) I've been leaning toward him not having read it first though...his book was a library book I'd say he read it earlier, maybe in school. After the traumatic incident and his attempts to atone for his guilt, he might have recalled the valorous Don Quixote, went to the library and got the book, from which he drew inspiration (or ir created delusions). Just because he didn't own it, doesn't mean he hadn't read it. ;-) (BarbS) and when Lucy opens it, there is a book mark in the middle of the book. As Donovan would say, "Barb, you are a genius!" Is this not evidence that he is merely rereading it? Bookmark in the middle, yet he knows the ending? ;-) Does anyone else think that Lucy's advice ("keep your head down, don't say nothing and keep on walking") has a broader meaning?

(Karen)Does anyone else think that Lucy's advice ("keep your head down, don't say nothing and keep on walking") has a broader meaning? Other than the obvious as far as Sandy is concerned--Lucy just wants to make sure that he stays out of trouble, especially since he is probably teased a great deal in the neighborhood as it is. He makes the remark to her that they already make fun of him when Lucy is angry that he is wearing conductor's uniform. A broader meaning...I think this is the way Lucy felt about life in gerneral. She is quite loathe to the bus idea and the publicity surrounding it. She has no self-esteem, no feelings of self-worth, and therefore feels most comfortable with little to no contact with her surroundings. Her only real contact, except for her family, is Clive who just compounds her hopelessness. I get the impression she keeps him around just to remind her of how empty she really is. If you keep your head down you don't have to look anyone in the eye.

(Lindak) Her only real contact, except for her family, is Clive who just compounds her hopelessness. I get the impression she keeps him around just to remind her of how empty she really is. Also there is a comfort in the "known" even if it is having a negative effect on your life. When Donovan enters the scene and shakes up that known world he turns it on end which is frightening for Lucy, although in the end may have been her saving grace.

(Karen)Does anyone else think that Lucy's advice ("keep your head down, don't say nothing and keep on walking") has a broader meaning? I don't have much to add, except perhaps she wants to protect him from the outside world. Life hasn't been very kind to her, and she might think she somehow shelters Sandy this way. There could also be a connection to the point, where she's angry with Donovan for encouraging Sandy to approach Redika. She says something like it makes Sandy look like a fool, and Donovan answers, that it happens.... (sorry, my memory isn't the best and my vcr is spoken for at the moment, but I'm sure you all remember the sequence).

(BarbS) it seems as if Windmill left him to the wolves. They might want to disassociate from him and from the order because of the liability and the public relations stink. (Karen) In what way did you get the impression that Windmill had "left him to the wolves"? My impression only, based on the total lack of any apparent support (in the story) from upper management. Admittedly the logic is suspect, just because it was not shown does not mean it was not there, just my impression based on what was (not) shown. (BarbS) and when Lucy opens it, there is a book mark in the middle of the book. (Karen) As Donovan would say, "Barb, you are a genius!" Is this not evidence that he is merely rereading it? Bookmark in the middle, yet he knows the ending? ;-) If he knew the ending and had any inkling of it applying to his own situation, I did not see it. I've only watched it 3 times and each time with a different list of questions, perhaps I'll eventually absorb it all. If he did know how it ended, why did he bother, unless he had a few microchips missing? :-) As many times as I've read histories of Nicholas and Anastasia and Marie Antoinette and hoped just this once it would end differently, it never does.

(Karen)Does anyone else think that Lucy's advice ("keep your head down, don't say nothing and keep on walking") has a broader meaning? It reminds me of instructions a commander may give his troops on a battleground: keep moving, stick together, keep your head down. I'm sure Lucy realized Sandy faced a battleground every day he stepped out the door. (LindaK)If you keep your head down you don't have to look anyone in the eye. If you approach an unknown animal, it is important to not look it in the eye because it is a challenge that can provoke an attack. This would be true even if the unknown animal was just a local "bully-boy".;-) It is possible that Sandy had a tendency to stare longer than other people were comfortable with because he was slow to think about what they had just said or slow to think of what he wanted to say. I think he does this when Donovan drags him away from Radhika. He and his new girlfriend in the hospital seem to do this.

(Evelyn) So you think the Donovan persona was a catharsis...an atonement, perhaps. This completely sums up what I think. Furthermore, I bet the writers would go some way with you on the idea that Daniel had a screw loose, or rather was not a complete human being, and might throw in Gorman and Mackie and anybody else in a sharp suit with minimised human compassion too. Donovan is what Daniel can be like when he acts with energy, courtesy, valour, kindness and integrity (see "quixotic") - and maybe it is a small tragedy that it takes hypomania to get him to act that way, and so enrich the lives of others around him in a way that he never manages in his day job as Daniel (when he is presumably enriching himself). Of course, I speak from the hypocrisy of my office in my sharp suit! (Well, casual today, but you know what I mean)

Of course, I speak from the hypocrisy of my office in my sharp suit! LOL, Mark! If all the "suits" were as quixotic as you...

(Linda)She is quite loathe to the bus idea and the publicity surrounding it. Lucy doesn't like her phone number on the leaflets either, and I noticed she did not include her phone number on the room-to-let advertisement - only the address. She wants as little contact with the outside world as possible. (Karen)I have some good comments from DonnaF that I was planning on unleashing fairly soon. Would love to see them! Would possibly help put us on the right "track." I feel a little stuck on the express bus and feel like pulling emergency cord in order to get to a better understanding. ;-)

Re: Lora's suggestion about Colin taking Jean Rochefort's place in Terry Gilliam's "Lost in La Mancha" - Rochefort is 71 years old. ;-)

Hmmm, I just noticed that his hat has the same cutout as my Lladro DQ.

(Karen)about Colin taking Jean Rochefort's place in Terry Gilliam's "Lost in La Mancha" - Rochefort is 71 years old. ;-) Thanks for the picture! I knew Rochefort was a lot older than CF (thanks for spelling), but can just picture Colin in that suit of armor. I think Colin is up for the challenge! He could be made to look older, but be young enough to put up with all the riding and hot armor in the desert location. Give him a distinguished salt and pepper beard and hair, he would be dazzling. And what a challenging role in so many ways! Plus Gilliam only films in Europe and hates Hollywood backing, and by the time he gets the rights again Colin should be closer to 50 ;-).

(Karen)Terry Gilliam's "Lost in La Mancha" "Lost in La Mancha" is the documentary made by Pepe and partner (see Karen's posting on 168) of Terry Gilliam's failed attempt to adapt Don Quixote to the screen which was entitled, "The Man Who Killed Don Quixote." Hope it's okay to put this here.

Ooops! Sorry, you're correct about the title. Need more coffee. ;-) (still too young)

(Karen)Hmmm, I just noticed that his hat has the same cutout as my Lladro DQ. Hat? A mere hat? That is the "Golden Helmet of Mambrino" but in real life has to have the cutout because it's, alas---a shaving basin. We have a framed print by M. Larrinaga of Don Quixote and it too has the cut out although less obvious because of the angle. I would be surprised if the the best dressed Don Quixotes were ever seen without their "golden helms". I'm glad DF didn't take the similarity even further and have Donovan turn the macaroni/cheese bowl upside down on his head!:-)

Having read that it was the inverted wash basin, I didn't really think about wha the the cutout was supposed to be. *leaning back for a rinse*

(Evelyn) So you think the Donovan persona was a catharsis...an atonement, perhaps. (Mark)This completely sums up what I think. I am leaning in that direction too. (a girl can change her mind, can't she?) A few more notes on the "train in the attic": At first, Sandy has a simple set of tracks with one train, and all the trails are bended. This could tell us how the members of the Pannick Family are all on their seperat off-courses. Donovan comes in at night, setting the trails right. Obvious meaning, he is starting the quest of getting the family back on track. Next the trainset developes, starting with a base for the trains. This could be the Pannick Household, where Donovan starts the business of busses. Then you see Donovan working with the trains alone, while Sandy is the bystander (the scene with the famous chat-up line). This is Donovan making his own little dynasti - lots of trains, rails and what have you (perhaps Daniels is sticking his head out?) At the end we see Sandy alone, one train running and paying more attention to the people on the set - could he be hoping to find love? Okay, this is very unorganized, but I would like to get it down, while I could remember some of my thoughts (and at the same time hoping to get dinner ready for the rest of the family)

(BarbS) I've only watched it 3 times and each time with a different list of questions, perhaps I'll eventually absorb it all. I've watched it numerous times, but this discussion is bringing out many new interpretations and I've done a 360 on many things. ;-) (BarbS) If he did know how it ended, why did he bother, unless he had a few microchips missing? :-) Because he had to. (Maria) When Donovan enters the scene and shakes up that known world he turns it on end which is frightening for Lucy, although in the end may have been her saving grace. (Annette) Donovan comes in at night, setting the trails right. Obvious meaning, he is starting the quest of getting the family back on track. Glad we came back to Donovan and the train set. He's the one who does get this family not "back on track" but on a different/better track. It is precisely because of Donovan that Lucy faces her problems, instead of drowning them in a bottle or clamping her legs around Clive, and becomes the person he envisions. In a related vein... (Karen) Does anyone else think that Lucy's advice ("keep your head down, don't say nothing and keep on walking") has a broader meaning? (Linda) I think this is the way Lucy felt about life in general....If you keep your head down you don't have to look anyone in the eye. (Annette) she wants to protect him from the outside world. Life hasn't been very kind to her, and she might think she somehow shelters Sandy this way. Lucy's credo isn't that of a realist. While life hasn't been good to her, she has chosen not to do anything to change her own circumstances or face up to it (see above). Moreover, she is skeptical about everything. Is it any coincidence that DonnaF and David Blair's (the director) production company is named Making Waves Productions? Seems to me like this work is intended to encourage people to make waves and to buck up against evil. As Donovan says, "for evil to triumph, it only requires that people do nothing." Is that not what Lucy is saying and how most of society behaves?

(Karen)Seems to me like this work is intended to encourage people to make waves and to buck up against evil. LOL. Special interest groups all over the world will agree here.....but in this case....hmmmmm , not sure if having to provide train/bus transport for Sandy to go to a day center in Cannon Bridge was exactly evil

(Evelyn) not sure if having to provide train/bus transport for Sandy to go to a day center in Cannon Bridge was exactly evil From my lurker KathyW: "Evil" can be very clear-cut, but it can also be a matter of degree. It may depend on how personally involved one might be. A cancer may start with one lone cell, after all. Donovan *may* be resorting to hyperbole in using "evil", but that's what Don Quixote believed he fought, too. There is also a powerful quote from a Lutheran minister from Nazi Germany [about] when something becomes evil and about people remaining silent/uninvolved: "In Germany they first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up." (punctuation exactly as written)

The web is full of info about Pastor Martin Niem�ller (1892-1984) and the many variations of this quote. 'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.' http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/index.html

(Lurker:Kathy W)"Evil" can be very clear-cut, but it can also be a matter of degree. It may depend on how personally involved one might be. Is that the same as "evil is in the eye of the beholder";-)

(Evelyn) Is that the same as "evil is in the eye of the beholder";-) KathyW's answer: "sometimes it is".

(Evelyn) Is that the same as "evil is in the eye of the beholder";-) (Via Karen)KathyW's answer: "sometimes it is". You betcha'....:-))A v. subjective term. Some folks think I am evil because I take a glass of Chardonnay:-(((

(Lurker:Kathy W)"Evil" can be very clear-cut, but it can also be a matter of degree. It may depend on how personally involved one might be. So the degree to which Daniel was involved in making the decision for the drivers not to stop made the action "more evil"? I'm confusing myself now with degrees of evil, it is hard to view it objectively because one usually feels very strongly about that which one views as "evil". Evelyn) Is that the same as "evil is in the eye of the beholder";-) Very interesting... (Evelyn) Some folks think I am evil because I take a glass of Chardonnay:((( Whaaaatt??!! Who?? I'll bean em with my drawer full of listless corks! I raise my glass and toast you (with whatever varietal I am drinking this week...)

(Maria) So the degree to which Daniel was involved in making the decision for the drivers not to stop made the action "more evil"? Kathy's said evil can be (1) clearcut, (2) a matter of degree, or (3) dependent on the degree of involvement. She didn't single any one out as it applied to this. Anyway... The "evil" discussion had to do with my comments about a broader meaning for Lucy's credo and Donovan's observations about "for evil to triumph..." and whether the filmmakers were making a statement about the effects of Thatcherism on society. As far as Daniel's views on the order not to stop, he believes himself part of that evil now, but certainly didn't then.

Kicking the larger evil off to the side... ;-) Was anyone else bothered by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? Don Quixote was an old man in the novel, but he still fought against his foes. He may have lost a lot from what I gather, but he was more aggressive.

(Karen)...by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? Yes, very much indeed. It is one of the notes on my list that I hadn't postet, because I couldn't explain why. I still can't, but it is nice to know, that some of you thought the same.

(Karen) Was anyone else bothered by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? Don Quixote was an old man in the novel, but he still fought against his foes. He may have lost a lot from what I gather, but he was more aggressive. I was surprised and disappointed. IMO he was slow to make any real effort to stop the bullies, and then he just gave up. It was like he was resigned to it.

(KathyF) IMO he was slow to make any real effort to stop the bullies, and then he just gave up. It was like he was resigned to it. Or that he had just realized the bullies were another weapon in the arsenal of Windmill, just like flooding the line with all the extra buses, and he was beginning to feel the effects of fighting against such a formidable foe. It took no real courage to hand down an edict from a shiny office, or to use words or money to influence people, but DQ (both) were unaccustomed to front line battle and it shows both when the widow slaps him and in this scene. (He'd probably still be counting in the aisle had they not shoved him down...)

(Karen)...by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? He thought he deserved it.

(Karen)...by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? He regressed to Daniel who was a wimp.

(Karen)...by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? (MoonD) He thought he deserved it. I agree. IMO he thought he deserved it for what he had done and the pain he had caused others to suffer. Perhaps his reasoning to experience in some measure pain as an act of atonement.

(Karen)...by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? (Moon Dreams) He thought he deserved it. And (watch me 360 here...hope there are no whiplashes...) he knew it was coming because he had read the book ;-)and was resigned that he would lose in the end? Some sort of symbolic death wish? "I can't beat them but I can die trying?" As Pam put it he thought he deserved it ...to experience in some measure pain as an act of atonement.

(KathyF) then he just gave up. It was like he was resigned to it. (Maria) Or that he had just realized the bullies were another weapon in the arsenal of Windmill, just like flooding the line with all the extra buses, and he was beginning to feel the effects of fighting against such a formidable foe. The tag-teaming buses didn't seem to faze him a jot; his self-confidence was fully intact and evident when he threw down the gauntlet to Mackie, came home singing "We Shall Not Be Moved" and then again when he mounted the consumer boycott campaign. As I mentioned earlier, I think this initial beating signified the end of Donovan and opened his eyes to reality. A "beaten" man, in more ways than one, went to see Mackie again. This man *waited* for the receptionist to say Mackie would see him now. (Marie) It took no real courage to hand down an edict from a shiny office, or to use words or money to influence people, but DQ (both) were unaccustomed to front line battle and it shows both when the widow slaps him and in this scene. Interesting observation. Daniel/Donovan was an "idea" man (brains but no brawn)? It has been suggested that physical responses catch him by surprise, like the driver hitting Sapas and Mrs. Sapas' slap. (Karen)...by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? (Moon) He thought he deserved it. Can't argue with that. (Pam) Perhaps his reasoning to experience in some measure pain as an act of atonement. Daniel's period of atonement had already ended before Clive's beating. Like Don Quixote, Daniel went out into the wilderness (where beasts live) and did his penance (rending of clothing, tearing of hair, hair shirt, beating head against rocks), but the bullies beat him back into sanity and it was over. From what I remember, Colin found doing that scene on the bus, where Sandy got beat, very difficult. Donna Franceschild related they were very sensitive to the parts where Sandy is called a "moron" and asked David Brown how he felt about it. He was ecstatic that he would get to yell the same at someone else. I feel myself heading for the train platform... ;-)

(Karen). A "beaten" man, in more ways than one, went to see Mackie again. This man *waited* for the receptionist to say Mackie would see him now. I didn't realize he waited for the receptionist this time. Interesting observation. I did note in this scene that he was a beaten man...especially when Mackie tells him that the offer was reduced to 5,000. The look of defeat is very evident in his face. (Karen)I feel myself heading for the train platform... ;-) Are we there already?

(Karen)Was anyone else bothered by Donovan's passivity when he was beaten up on the bus and again by Clive? Thanks for bringing this up. I am very bothered by these two scenes everytime I watch them. I think another reason why Donovan doesn't fight back is because he doesn't want to cause a bigger fight that would trigger the police to come and ask questions. Remember how he doesn't want Lucy to call for help (police/hospital) after Clive beats him up? Was also a little frustrated when I watched DQ with DH during these scenes and was secretly thinking, "C'mon get up, Colin, get up and kick those bullys' butts this time!" Meanwhile DH had such a smirk on his face as if to say, "See, CF is such a wimp." ;-)

(Lora)Remember how he doesn't want Lucy to call for help (police/hospital) after Clive beats him up? I think the reason for not wanting Lucy to call for help was because he knew that his wife an police were looking for him. It is the police who come to Lucy's house--to take him away.

Being "in Italy" over the weekend [winkie winkie] ruined my plans to take the train. But I'm going to try my best to get there later today.

Going back to Evil again, very briefly, I found this quote from DonnaF in the Independent:Windmill Transport, a giant with many arms, is a good target for Donovan to attempt to stay," Franceschild continues. "There's something noble about trying to fight such a massive foe against all the odds but for all the right reasons. I wanted to examine the lack of humanity in that system. I didn't want to write about bus deregulation as such, but create a situation where a little guy stands up to capitalism at its most rapacious." [...] Franceschild reckons Donovan could be a role model for anyone who wants to fire others into action. "A lot of people now are politically cynical, as Labour have turned out to be Tories, Mark II. But when true opposition comes back, it will be because of a few lunatics who are never going to win but who make us think that things can be different.And I think we can all figure out that Evil in Ms Franceschild's mind is Capitalism, a beast with gaping jaws and a oracious appetite for only what's profitable. ;-) Windmill Rail apologizes for the delay and is ready to board all passengers for Glasgow on Track 2.... DonnaF mentioned that, when they shot the final scene on the platform, Colin came on set in that suit and she barely recognized him. She said he was "metallic." Any ideas to what she meant? She told him then that she would write a different ending, but his reply was "don't you dare." It took me a long time to accept that Daniel had been employed by Windmill, but even longer to understand that he was back at work for them now. Why else would he even be on a train platform in Scotland, if he hadn't just been at Windmill HQ in Port Clyde, meeting with his boss or similar. Maybe I get too concerned with the minutiae but, in Daniel's prior position (and there's no reason to assume that he would go back to it, more than likely he would not), he would've lived closer to the operations he managed. But, after the Sapas incident, when he's either shown at home or at the minimum security facility where he's been sectioned, he's listening to a local radio program. Would he get that in or near London? Doesn't it look like Daniel is working very hard *not* to react/respond to Lucy and what she's telling him?

(Karen)Why else would he even be on a train platform in Scotland, if he hadn't just been at Windmill HQ in Port Clyde, meeting with his boss or similar. Think Daniel and George Mackie now "do" lunch? I keep telling ya'..Frank Abagnale in Port Clyde.Now he goes to work for the opposition. Donovan was instrumental in turning the lives of the Pannick family around.(No easy feat) But did he get the train to stop at Cannon Bridge? So what is DF telling us? That although our original mission may never be attained, it always pays to "fight the battle" because there can be an ancillary reward.

(Karen) She said he was "metallic." Any ideas to what she meant? I take it to mean he was like steel, very emotionless and looking very focused on what he is or will be doing and detached from those around him. He did try to maintain a fairly flat or neutral aspect while talking to Lucy, well illustrated with your picture. And the facade only started to crumble as he stepped onto the train. He might have already been in character coming on to the set. Why else would he even be on a train platform in Scotland This confused me a bit after the second viewing. I assumed, obviously wrongly it appears, that he came from somewhere else and ended up there. Not that he actually lived and/or worked in the area which I presume he would if he was catching the train at that particular station. Does that make sense?

(Karen)Doesn't it look like Daniel is working very hard *not* to react/respond to Lucy and what she's telling him? The first time I saw this, I really thought he didn't recognize Lucy at first (due to his illness and obviouos cure). Then, of course, he apologizes for the trouble he's caused. Obviously he knows Lucy from the moment she says "Donovan." I get the impression that if he does react to her, he fears he will crack, and will have to accept the life he has returned to. Maybe the metallic, emotionless, and unfeeling traits that Dorine describes are the very things that help him not to have to deal with this reality...Daniel's version of sanity. .

(Karen)But, after the Sapas incident, when he's either shown at home or at the minimum security facility where he's been sectioned, he's listening to a local radio program. Would he get that in or near London? If Daniel was back working for Windmill, maybe he was reassigned. I would assume that too many people would know who he was, and what happened after the Sapas incident. Sorry for the double post.

(Karen), Capitalism, a beast with gaping jaws and a oracious appetite for only what's profitable. ;-) And sub-culture. (Karen)Doesn't it look like Daniel is working very hard *not* to react/respond to Lucy and what she's telling him? It's Daniel. He knows not Lucy anymore. Why else would he even be on a train platform in Scotland Daniel travels on trains. DQ travelled on the bus. It marks the contrast.

Metallic Robotic, perhaps, kinda ... android. Why else would he even be on a train platform in Scotland? Excuse dumb question, as do not have a copy to rewatch: is the train platform definitely in Scotland? I felt there was huge change in Lucy's life ,evidenced by her smartness, and that maybe her new job and status had her going to London, or I suppose Glasgow (but i.e. out of her old, restricted environment).

(Evelyn) I keep telling ya'..Frank Abagnale in Port Clyde. Now he goes to work for the opposition. He's not a con artist, merely a businessman, albeit fairly ruthless. (Evelyn) So what is DF telling us? That although our original mission may never be attained, it always pays to "fight the battle" because there can be an ancillary reward. I think that is very much her message. (Dorine) I take it to mean he was like steel, very emotionless (MarkG) Robotic, perhaps, kinda ... android. I too took it as like steel. Hard as steel, based on what we overhear of his phone conversation ("we'll pry their fingers off"). Maybe it's even armorlike. ;-) (MarkG) is the train platform definitely in Scotland?...maybe her new job and status had her going to London, or I suppose Glasgow (but i.e. out of her old, restricted environment). Initially, I felt it must be in Scotland, probably Glasgow because of the mention of the hotel pickups; I didn't think Port Clyde would have many of those. But I rewatched the last scene and it could indeed be somewhere else. The sign says "Central Station" and it is a more elaborate structure. Lucy then talks about seven coming off the Glasgow train and another nine on the Strand run [?]. So, Glasgow would be out. But one of the trains that pulls in bears the logo SPT, which actually exists: the Strathclyde Passenger Transport. [You really must read about this company; its stated role is to "ensure that public transport is available for those who need it most, especially the elderly and disabled." http://www.spt.co.uk/About/index.html] Your conclusions about the family having moved away and starting over make a great deal of sense.

(Karen)Lucy then talks about seven coming off the Glasgow train and another nine on the Strand run [?]. So, Glasgow would be out. Definitely not Glasgow. More likely a regional station along the Clyde coast (where it was filmed), serving many small towns. Didn't the announcement state the next train arriving at the platform was for Ayr? (A Clyde Coast seaside resort). Not sure if us locals would agree with SPT's stated role. LOL! BTW, I believe they were still living locally.

(Karen)Lucy then talks about seven coming off the Glasgow train and another nine on the Strand run [?] Sorry for the double post, but I've just listened to the dialogue. Lucy: ' ...and another nine on the Stranraer service at a quarter past ten'. This would tie in. Stranraer is a port that serves Northern Ireland, and is in the south-west of Scotland, south of Ayrshire. Quite a busy tourist route.

(Janet) More likely a regional station along the Clyde coast...Didn't the announcement state the next train arriving at the platform was for Ayr? (A Clyde Coast seaside resort). This would tie in. Stranraer is a port that serves Northern Ireland, and is in the south-west of Scotland, south of Ayrshire. Quite a busy tourist route. Excellent! So there is a tourist trade in their region. Love it when the loose ends are tied up. All for Janet doing a transcript of the program, raise their hands. *waving wildly* (Linda) Obviously he knows Lucy from the moment she says "Donovan." I get the impression that if he does react to her, he fears he will crack, and will have to accept the life he has returned to. Regardless of the elapsed time, I also believe that Daniel recognizes Lucy's call to Donovan and that he doesn't want to acknowledge her. "Cracking" is an interesting way of putting it, but I'd say he would have to let the mask completely slip off. His business executive mask. Daniel has been cured and returned to sanity, which requires he hide behind a mask and not let those more human feelings be exposed again. He has to stay with customers or labor units, no flesh and blood. I would guess that he quietly surrendered to his cure, especially as he was under the impression that he had ruined the Pannicks' lives when he was hauled away. Lucy hadn't minced words when she told him they were better off before he arrived, and I'm sure he believed it. Being human, caring about people, was painful and the results could backfire. People are not as black and white as a balance sheet is supposed to be. If one of his business strategies didn't pay off as expected, it would be written it off and maybe his bonus would o ly be a few pounds less that year. Did anyone catch possibly a glimmer of recognition when Lucy is telling him about Gran? Sadness tinged with amusement?

(Karen)Did anyone catch possibly a glimmer of recognition when Lucy is telling him about Gran? Sadness tinged with amusement? I had the same feeling, like a little movement around his mouth. Thank you Janet, for the "translation" and to all of your for your observations. I enjoy it a lot, but don't feel I have much more to contribute. I will follow the rest of the discussion closely, though.

(Karen)Daniel has been cured and returned to sanity, which requires he hide behind a mask and not let those more human feelings be exposed again. ... I would guess that he quietly surrendered to his cure, Cured? Cured of what? Daniel willingly decided to impersonate a DQ by becoming Donovan as atonement for killing Sappas. When he ran out of money and saw that his crusade was futil, he became despondent and went back to his former self. I submit that DF is telling us that we don't realize the good we do when we take up a cause;even if we don't see evident results at the time.

(Karen) Being human, caring about people, was painful and the results could backfire. People are not as black and white as a balance sheet is supposed to be. If one of his business strategies didn't pay off as expected, it would be written it off and maybe his bonus would o ly be a few pounds less that year. Did anyone catch possibly a glimmer of recognition when Lucy is telling him about Gran? Sadness tinged with amusement? Which brings us back to question the emotional state of Daniel from the beginning. Was he sound of mind to start off? Seeking solace and prtotection from human feelings in business strategies and balance sheets. IMO he knew Lucy right off and was just trying to avoid a confrontation as he felt he had failed them. He didn't know how to react to her so possibly felt by ignoring her any confrontation could be avoided. He definitely reacted when she mentioned Gran. I noticed that on first viewing. IMO I think he really had caring feelings for Gran. (Evelyn) Cured? Cured of what? Daniel willingly decided to impersonate a DQ by becoming Donovan as atonement for killing Sappas. When he ran out of money and saw that his crusade was futil, he became despondent and went back to his former self. I agree. I always had the opinion Daniel knew exactly what he was doing as Donovan and took on the Donovan persona to make atonement. He tried to atone as Daniel and was sectioned for his actions, so he had to become someone else. Sadly, he never got to realize till the very end that he had not failed the Pannicks. Perhaps if the police had not come to get him the Pannicks would not have stood on their own and succeeded as well as they did as they would have continuted to depend on him instead of themselves. And at this point Daniel had given up and didn't possess the strength or dependability that the Pannicks would have required from him. So all things being equal maybe things did work out for the best. Daniel returned to a life he was comfortable with and the Pannicks evolved into successful, functioning people.

(Karen)Doesn't it look like Daniel is working very hard *not* to react/respond to Lucy and what she's telling him? I see a big gulp (adam's apple action) when Lucy says "Donovan". Then I see nothing like Karen says. "Come on it hasn't been that long":Lucy He won't acknowledge her. Finally: "I'm sorry for all the trouble I caused". Donovan,asking for forgiveness (as he did for the bus incident) "Don't be sorry Donovan". Lucy being very human gives him forgiveness (as Sapos wife could have done)and tells him at the same time not to be sorry for the bus incident either. He looks over his shoulder as he gets on the train. Why? Gaah! The resolution of the whole movie. Does he realize that only he can forgive himself? He can't get it from someone else? He is human. Otherwise it is a sad little ending. He's gone back to his old ways. Really bad. Dragging people out of their offices by finger nails. Ewww!

(kathleen)He looks over his shoulder as he gets on the train. Why? Gaah! The resolution of the whole movie. Does he realize that only he can forgive himself? He can't get it from someone else? He is human. I need to look at the last moment of the ending...for his facial expression. I think he may get that realization (forgiving himself) at the very last minute. He had a longing in his eyes as he looks back at her. Not the same steely (metallic) look from our first glimpse of Daniel on the platform.

(Kathleen) Otherwise it is a sad little ending. He's gone back to his old ways. Like you said, Kathleen. "He is human." You can't change the spots on an old leopard. But I don't think it's sad, he did rehab the Pannick family. And I bet he won't tell a bus driver to run over union activists again. This is a terrific film and had it not been peppered with undecipherable Scottish accents, IMO it would have found a distrib in the US. At least on cable.

(Evelyn) Cured? Cured of what? Daniel willingly decided to impersonate a DQ by becoming Donovan as atonement for killing Sappas. When he ran out of money and saw that his crusade was futile, he became despondent and went back to his former self. Finishing my last about-face, I'm back in the "mad" camp. I think he did experience some kind of dissociative personality disorder as a result of a traumatic experience (Mrs Sapas' accusations). While this doesn't cause amnesia, he was acting like another individual, one he selected by going to the library and getting the book, which he had read before, for inspiration. A great deal has been said about "atonement," even by me, but the book Don Quixote is not about atonement. DQ doesn't go on his quest to atone for anything wrong he has done in life. There is a section which I've mentioned before where he goes out into the wilderness to atone, but that is specifically because he feels he has not been a good enough knight errant to Dulcinea. Maybe if we fold Mrs Sapas into the Lucy/Dulcinea symbolism, then it might work. Why do people go on quests? To atone? No, I don't think so. They go to find something. (Kathleen) I see a big gulp (adam's apple action) when Lucy says "Donovan". Then I see nothing like Karen says....He won't acknowledge her. But more importantly, he won't look at her. That takes supreme effort. (Kathleen) He looks over his shoulder as he gets on the train. Why? Gaah! The resolution of the whole movie. Does he realize that only he can forgive himself? He can't get it from someone else? He is human. (Linda) He had a longing in his eyes as he looks back at her. Not the same steely (metallic) look from our first glimpse of Daniel on the platform. It's a very hard, final look, don't you think? As Moon pointed out before, when Alonso Quixano dies, he renounces being Don Quixote. He went home and fell into a melancholy state, which people attributed to his being vanquished and not being able to restore Dulcinea. In bed he asks forgiveness for his sins, to which his niece asks what they are. His answer: "My judgement is now undisturbed, and free from those dark clouds of ignorance with which my eager and continual reading of those detestable books of chivalry had obscured it. Now I perceive the absurdity and delusion of them, and am only sorry I am undeceived so late, that I have no time left to make some amends, by reading others that might help to enlighten my soul. I feel myself, niece, at the point of death, and I would fain so order it, as not to leave the imputation of madness upon my memory; for though I must confess I have been a madman, I would not confirm the truth of it at my death." To his friends he says the following: "Give me joy, good gentlemen, that I am now no longer Don Quixote de la Mancha, but Alonso Quixano, for his virtues surnamed the Good! I am now an utter enemy to Amadis de Gaul, and the innumerable rabble of his descendants; now all the histories of knight-errantry are to me odious and profane: I am now sensible of my folly, and of the danger I was led into by reading them; and now, through the mercy of God, and my own dear-bought experience, I detest and abhor them." DQ then confesses to the priest and makes his will. He asks Sancho's forgiveness for making him into a madman as well and making him believe in knight-errantry. About three days later, he died. His epitaph: Here lies the valiant cavalier, Who never had a sense of fear; So high his matchless courage rose, He reckon'd Death among his vanquish'd foes. Wrongs to redress, his sword he drew, And many a caitiff giant slew; His days of life tho' madness stain'd, In death his sober senses he regain'd.Does this alter your view of the train station at all or reinforce it? DonnaF wanted the film to hinge on this question: "Was DQ mad when he was destroying other people's lives or when he was healing them?"

DonnaF wanted the film to hinge on this question: "Was DQ mad when he was destroying other people's lives or when he was healing them?" The easy answer would be when he was destroying them, but don't be too sure. With the healing came as many lies as with the destroying. That look at the train station expresses this. He found himself in a no win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. What sense would it make to acknowledge Lucy? None. His days of life tho' madness stain'd, In death his sober senses he regain'd. Daniel died for DQ. DQ died for Daniel. Where is the madness? Where is the sober senses? Don Quixote the novel is a put on of chivalry. It is made fun off. As he dies in the end, so does chivalry. We find ourselves back with Daniel.

(Karen)Does this alter your view of the train station at all or reinforce it? For me, it re-enforces my view. It was easier to be metallic rather than have emotion and hurt penetrate. He fought the battle and lost, and therefore it re-enforced and justified, in his own mind, a reason to return to Daniel. I find it depressing that he did not know the extent of the good he had done for the Pannicks. (Karen)Why do people go on quests? To atone? No, I don't think so. They go to find something. To find out who he truly was? That's the sad part, he came away with Daniel and allowed Donovan to die.

(Karen) Why do people go on quests? To atone? No, I don't think so. They go to find something. (Linda) To find out who he truly was? Sometimes they do both I think. Some people have done bad things and realize what a bad person they were (if that's the case), want to atone, then go on a quest to find themselves and where they fit might fit in better with society and possibly do some good along the way (as atonement).

I haven't come to any conclusion about the quest (yet!), but just thought of something in my little "train-metaphore"-line, that I wantet to post, while I could remember it (I am in the middle of preparing dinner, so please excuse me for any misspellings or typos!) The leaving lodger in the beginning pinched Sandy's traintransformer as well as one of the locomotives. This could symbolize, that Sandy (and others) was being robbed of his local traincompany and that the new company (Windmill)"robbed" him of his ride home aswell! Perhaps it's a bit far out, but it could make some sense, couldn't it???

(Moon)Don Quixote the novel is a put on of chivalry. It is made fun off. As he dies in the end, so does chivalry. I'm with Moon on this. And didn't we decide a while back that the film doesn't follow the book, that it is an interpretation of the DQ character? I'd go with Donna F's comment instead of realting the film back to Cervantes. (Karen) DonnaF wanted the film to hinge on this question: "Was DQ mad when he was destroying other people's lives or when he was healing them?" The question can't be answered, a case can be made for either side :).Well done. Atonement is only a part of that. Going back to bed scene when DQ says. "When they returned him to sanity he was nothing" (extreme closeup - must be very important to film) Also Karen's photo helped me with this interpretation:I don't think it is a hard look I think he is thinking about something she said or that something that occured to him as a result of something she said. I think that final freeze-frame says : Considering what Lucy said, maybe I am not nothing.

(Kathleen)I think that final freeze-frame says : Considering what Lucy said, maybe I am not nothing. I will go along with this one as well. I didn't find the face that hard, but couldn't find a way to express it.

(Annette)The leaving lodger in the beginning pinched Sandy's traintransformer as well as one of the locomotives. This could symbolize, that Sandy (and others) was being robbed of his local traincompany and that the new company (Windmill)"robbed" him of his ride home aswell! Very perceptive Annette! Was just reloading to tell you this. I thought it was a very strange thing to say at the beginning of the film, that the lodger pinched a model train car. It works in your context.

A quote from Colin about Donovan Quick Firth thinks we have all got a touch of the Donovan Quicks about us. "Like most powerful myths, it's universal. If there's anything I'm passionate about or decide to fight, it's usually a case of Don Quixote,a pathetically ineffectual human being taking on something which doesn't feel the blows at all and which is probably the wrong target anyway. Donovan never gets a punch in before he's flat on his back, but his spirit is winning and his courage is absolute. Donovan is never going to get the girl, he's never going to defeat the dragon, but he's going to keep going anyway. Is there a better way to describe the human condition?"

(Kathleen), Very perceptive Annette! Was just reloading to tell you this. I thought it was a very strange thing to say at the beginning of the film, that the lodger pinched a model train car. Aha! I had posted a long time ago to compare the message in beginning and the end of the film. Donovan is never going to get the girl, he's never going to defeat the dragon, but he's going to keep going anyway. Is there a better way to describe the human condition?" A bunch of masochists, LOL! Colin, Colin , Colin! Some very underserving people win all the time. ;-)

(Kathleen) Lucy being very human gives him forgiveness (as Sapos wife could have done)and tells him at the same time not to be sorry for the bus incident either. Easier said than done for Mrs. Sapos. She lost her husband and her life as she knew it. Kind of a hard thing to forgive, especially at the immediate time of the action. Lucy and family benefited from any trouble he caused so IMO two completely different situations, therefore easy for Lucy to give forgiveness. I don't think they can be compared.

I rewatched the beginning, the bed scene, and the ending. All of a sudden the dialogue in the bed scene took on a different meaning to me: L: Who's Daniel Quinn? D: You wouldn't have liked him. He was a businessman. And, uh, his business was destroying lives...He wouldn't have thought that about himself. He didn't care whose businesses he raided. He was too busy making money for himself and his company. One could read his business and his company in a couple of ways. The first several times I heard it I thought it was just loyalty to the transport business he worked for. As in: This is my business because it is the company I work for. But this time it popped right out to me to mean his own business. This time it sounded like he owned that franchise in Scotland during the Sappas incident before Windmill took over! While he talks to Lucy on the bed he has another blue screen flashback about Mrs. Sappas, where she screams, "You're the one. It was you. You killed him!" Then Donovan says to Lucy (on the bed), "It was his company (Daniel's)." As if to say - That's why I am responsible, it was my company at the time. Lucy asks him, "Windmill?" But he doesn't confirm that. The company had a different name before, but I don't know what it was. We only see a logo on the train at the beginning of the film when they cover it with the Windmill logo. So, do you think the old franchise in Scotland was a company owned by Daniel? Or am I reading this dialogue totally wrong? At the beginning of the film, the radio host mentions that Mackie is the man who is the regional director who has taken over the rail franchise in Scotland. At the end of the film, Daniel was probably hired back as a consultant (which is why he's probably on the platform in Scotland). From what he says on his cellular he's helping others to fail, i.e. coming at them with both barrels and prying fingers off. (Linda)I find it depressing that he did not know the extent of the good he had done for the Pannicks. And now that Lucy has told him of their success, he feels even worse that he has gone back to being ruthless Daniel. So the turnback expression (that Karen provided above) as he steps onto the train is total regret at who he is (even though deep inside he has to be happy for the Pannicks and what he did for them). Do you think the franchise in Scotland that Windmill took over used to be owned by Daniel Quinn? I had never viewed the movie in this light before my last reviewing of these scenes. Daniel's motivation to go to Port Clyde makes a lot more sense in this view, don't you think? And so does Mackie's position in the new company and why Donovan looks familiar to him.

closing tags, sorry

(Linda) He fought the battle and lost, and therefore it re-enforced and justified, in his own mind, a reason to return to Daniel. Absolutely, as Moon put: damned if you do and damned if you don't. But maybe, just maybe, he did see the positive way in which he affected the Pannicks. It wasn't all that bad. Good could come of what our society's terms madness. (Annette) The leaving lodger in the beginning pinched Sandy's train transformer as well as one of the locomotives. This could symbolize, that Sandy (and others) was being robbed of his local train company and that the new company (Windmill)"robbed" him of his ride home as well! Perhaps it's a bit far out... Not far out at all. This movie operates on many levels and I don't think we're stretching credulity with these observations at all. (Kathleen) Going back to bed scene when DQ says. "When they returned him to sanity he was nothing" (extreme closeup - must be very important to film) He (Daniel) believes this. He is nothing (and I so agree that extreme close-up is definitely an indication of its importance, among other things) ;-) (Kathleen) I think that final freeze-frame says: Considering what Lucy said, maybe I am not nothing. Very good but I think the face is quite hard and why else would DonnaF have second thoughts about the ending? From all I've heard and seen about filmmaking, a sad or not upbeat ending is the toughest to sell. If we were to take away a glimmer of hope that he had changed, then that kind of ending would be considered desirable, easier to take. I don't think they went for the hopeful ending here. He may see that he has positively affected the family, but he's not headed down that track again. From the lady who whispers in my ear: (KathyW) A quest may be an adventurous journey, searching for something that might be unobtainable in the first place, but part of the concept of a quest, IMO, is the person's desire to test himself---physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Can one face the test of fire and come through it? A quest may be of value to the person who undertakes it and not to others, but that doesn't diminish the challenge or invalidate the worthiness of it, IMO. I wonder if Don Quixote's feelings of preferring sanity are wholehearted. Underneath his acceptance of (capitulation to?) the reality of his mundane world, might he not long for the freedoms and joys (the sense of being truly alive--of doing) he experienced in his irrational period? I hope so, and I hope the same for Donovan. Without that hope, what are we left with except acceptance and submission? [P.S. I'm not ignoring your posting, Lora, but I prepared this one offline while yours went up.]

(Pam)Easier said than done for Mrs. Sapos. She lost her husband and her life as she knew it. Kind of a hard thing to forgive, especially at the immediate time of the action. Lucy and family benefited from any trouble he caused so IMO two completely different situations, therefore easy for Lucy to give forgiveness. I don't think they can be compared. (Kathleen)Lucy being very human gives him forgiveness (as Sapos wife could have done)and tells him at the same time not to be sorry for the bus incident either. I didn't mean to compare the two.:-) I don't think Daniel intended what happened. It was an accident. We all have the capacity to forgive to different degrees. Mrs. Sapos "could" have forgiven him. I didn't mean to imply that she "should" have. She couldn't have been much less forgiving (spat in his face, accused him personally)and created as much guilt in him as she possibly could.

(KathyW),I wonder if Don Quixote's feelings of preferring sanity are wholehearted. Underneath his acceptance of (capitulation to?) the reality of his mundane world, might he not long for the freedoms and joys (the sense of being truly alive--of doing) he experienced in his irrational period? But what are we shown that would make us believe that? As Lora says, At the end of the film, Daniel was probably hired back as a consultant (which is why he's probably on the platform in Scotland). From what he says on his cellular he's helping others to fail, i.e. coming at them with both barrels and prying fingers off. How do we reconcile the two? We can't, a choice is made. DQ has died for Daniel.

I just came across a link by coinsidence. A few quotes catched my eyes: ..who is fighting mad and fighting back on his own terms. A man named Colin Firth is the mad-man who is fighting back. .."This threat has only strengthened my resolve to use this project as a stand on principles, the little guy against corporate greed." The link has nothing whatsoever to do with ODB, I just post because I think it is quite strange (in a funny way, - well not to some people) Will hurry back to work. Here is the link: http://www.starther.no/skole/showarticle.php?skole_id=214

(Lora)D: You wouldn't have liked him. He was a businessman. And, uh, his business was destroying lives...He wouldn't have thought that about himself. (Moon) might he not long for the freedoms and joys (the sense of being truly alive--of doing) he experienced in his irrational period? Both of these statements make it difficult for me to accept the look and attitude of Daniel on the platform, before Lucy speaks to him. Regardless of the fact that Donovan was defeated, the platform scene suggests to me that at some point he made the rational decision to continue to live the rest of his life as Daniel, the businessman, before the Pannicks. Yet when he talks to Lucy in the bedroom, he seems to be denouncing Daniel and what he stood for. The statement "he wouldn't have thought that about himself" also suggests to me that he had realized the "wrong" about Daniel. Even though he might return to his old life, then the time spent in Donovan mode didn't bring about any type of change to his old ways. If he glimplsed the freedom and energy he had as Donovan, why was the pull to return to Daniel so strong? My question remains... What did the quest accomplish?

This is the film that Lora and I are going to see tonight at the Miami FF: *** EL CABALLERO DON QUIJOTE (DON QUIXOTE, KNIGHT ERRANT) Quixote's quest forever magical BY MARTA BARBER Spain has the same obsession with Don Quixote as the noble gentleman has with his Dulcinea. Both are inspired by and devoted to fictional characters and are willing to battle windmills in the conviction that the figments of their dream can be made real. Manuel Guti�rrez Arag�n makes a good case of keeping the obsession alive with El caballero don Quijote (Don Quixote, Knight Errant), a film as magical as any version on the subject. When Don Quixote was published in 1605, it became an instant success; a second book was published in 1615. The film picks up the public's fascination and inserts episodes from the second book as Don Quixote rides again, always in the company of his loyal manservant Sancho. He is now motivated by the ideal of breaking the spell under which his beloved Dulcinea, whom he has never seen, lives. This concept of 17th century reality mixed with the book's fabled episodes and the timeless search for what is right gives Guti�rrez Arag�n's film a special tone accessible to modern filmgoers. The dialogue sounds current, though as spoken by Don Quixote (Juan Luis Galiardo), it carries the exaggerations of the old-fashioned man Cervantes created. Some things have changed. Sancho Panza (a lovable Carlos Iglesias) is neither dumb nor fat, and thus not prone to ridicule. Don Quixote is not quite as woeful, although, as his adventures continue, he begins to show the effects of ensuing disappointments and lack of food. There are still the images of the old ventas or country inns, filled with transient mule keepers, actors playing female parts, dukes and duchesses. The biggest change comes in the landscape, which immediately strikes you as having too many trees. The director claims that La Mancha, the arid steppes of Central Spain, suffered a climactic change in the 17th and 18th centuries, and the film's location is more in tune to what it looked like in Cervantes' days. The change of landscape works in a cinematography lush with appealing images, from the battle by the seashore to the scene in the black cave. Guti�rrez Arag�n doesn't intend to be totally faithful to the book, but his film feels closer to the concept and the era of Cervantes than any other. Those seeking literature won't find it here, but the entertaining film proves there's a reason why Don Quixote will remain a Spanish obsession.

Ohhhh I wish I were going to be with you. Sounds terrific. It's a period film, I gather and not contemporary. But with current dialogue?? Eager to get your report.

(Lora) But this time it popped right out to me to mean his own business. This time it sounded like he owned that franchise in Scotland during the Sappas incident before Windmill took over! Initially, I thought there was no way Daniel could've been working for Windmill. He acted like just too high-powered an exec to be in that company. But the fact that he's listed in Windmill's personnel database means he must work for them and we know in what capacity. BTW, the Sapas incident took place somewhere around London, which is consistent with Daniel's title that shows his territory to be the Home Counties. There's a sign at the playground when Daniel approaches Mrs Sapas which gives the postal code. W14 as I recall off hand. (Lora) At the end of the film, Daniel was probably hired back as a consultant (which is why he's probably on the platform in Scotland). I'd say he's still in full employ with Windmill. During all this time, he was off sick or on leave. Can't fire a person for health reasons. (Linda) Regardless of the fact that Donovan was defeated, the platform scene suggests to me that at some point he made the rational decision to continue to live the rest of his life as Daniel, the businessman, before the Pannicks. Yet when he talks to Lucy in the bedroom, he seems to be denouncing Daniel and what he stood for. The statement "he wouldn't have thought that about himself" also suggests to me that he had realized the "wrong" about Daniel. Completely with you up to this point. Yes, Daniel had understood the wrongs he had done, which is why IMO he embarked on his quest. He sought to do good and root out evil. (Linda) Even though he might return to his old life, then the time spent in Donovan mode didn't bring about any type of change to his old ways. If he glimpsed the freedom and energy he had as Donovan, why was the pull to return to Daniel so strong? Because he was totally unaware of the good he had done for the Pannick family, the turnaround he had caused. As I think Moon had said earlier, it was a damned if you, damned if you don't type of decision. He believed he had failed on all levels (social and human), which would make his return to the Daniel inevitably easier to accept. Daniel doesn't take into account the human factor; it's just all numbers to him. (film synopsis) timeless search for what is right Precisely. (Linda) My question remains...What did the quest accomplish? Just what was beginning to sink in during the final moments that his quest had ancillary benefits. KathyW has been needling me about DonnaF's message and the seemingly hopeless ending. If she is trying to show what happens with a "keep your head down, say nothing and keep on walking" attitude, then shouldn't Daniel's last look imply some hope? Could Donovan be a redeemer? (1) obscure/mystical/controversial origins (2) sacrificing/giving of strength/abilitites (3) saving souls or lives of others (4) battle against evil forces (5) waning of strengths (physical and mental) (6) 'death' of redeemer (7) rebirth/renewal after his death This would be consistent with Moon's recent comment about something must die for something new to be created or born.

Could Donovan be a redeemer? Donovan was Daniel's redeemer. With the Don Quixote book in hand, Don sets out to touch the lives of others battling against the evil forces responsible for his mental waning, and in turn, something mystical happens: he saves his soul. (Karen), I'd say he's still in full employ with Windmill. During all this time, he was off sick or on leave. Agreed. Can't fire a person for health reasons. In the UK and Europe that's true. But in the US?

(Moon) Donovan was Daniel's redeemer So you wouldn't say that he saves the Pannicks? (me) Can't fire a person for health reasons. (Moon) In the UK and Europe that's true. But in the US? Well, this does take place in Scotland, but you can't do it here either.

(Moon)Don sets out to touch the lives of others battling against the evil forces responsible for his mental waning, and in turn, something mystical happens: he saves his soul. I have a problem with this...I don't know if he saves his soul if he goes back to being Daniel and prying peoples fingers etc. He does save the Pannick family, however.Which he doesn't realize til Lucy tells him.So I wouldn't call it all hopeless.

(Karen), So you wouldn't say that he saves the Pannicks? I consider that a side effect. (Evelyn), I don't know if he saves his soul if he goes back to being Daniel and prying peoples fingers etc. So does evil triumph at the end? No because Lucy tells him. In the end, things just go back to normal for him. Now, define normal? ;-)

(Moon)So does evil triumph at the end? No because Lucy tells him. I can agree with this to a point, but his running into Lucy was pure chance. I have a hard time with his phone conversation and the prying of fingers remark. The impression that we're left with...except for those brief moments when Daniel and the audience see the "new" Pannicks, is that Donovan taught him nothing. He not only returned to his life as Daniel, which was probably going to happen anyway, given the fact that he had a wife who was looking for him, but he was ruthless as well.

(linda), that Donovan taught him nothing. He not only returned to his life as Daniel, which was probably going to happen anyway We must not lose track of the book. Donovan was DQ, not Daniel. Once Daniel returns back home he is back to his old self.

(Moon)Daniel returns back home he is back to his old self. I guess it is the quest that I'm referring to. His experiences as Donovan...I thought he would somehow bring away with him a small part of the good feelings/positive images. Before meeting Lucy on the platform, one can assume that the past experiences as Donovan hadn't happened, offered no effect at all. Was no part of Daniel's character affected by what had gone before?

Was no part of Daniel's character affected by what had gone before? That's where the mental illness comes in. He can't recall.

Hey, Don Quijote is making the rounds;;-) From my London Theatre Newsletter: At the Barbican Theatre......... AY! QUIXOTE by Teatro Malandro Genre Drama from 11 Mar 03 to 15 Mar 03 Time: Tue 7pm , Wed - Sat 7:45pm Director: Omar Porras Producer: BITE 03 / Teatro Malandro Synopsis: Swiss theatre company Teatro Malandro visits London for the first time with Ay! Quixote, a fresh and astonishingly visual incarnation of Don Quixote's mythical quest for Dulcinea, the female ideal. Depicting a nostalgic world of romance and chivalry alongside the realities of unattainable desires, this epic tale is ravishingly brought to life by Colombian director Omar Porras. It's a production that traverses moments of contemplative stillness and fantasy sequences of amazing virtuosity. The fantastical experiences of Don Quixote's and Sancho Panza's mission are created through luscious combinations of mask work and text, presented amidst a set that transforms from intricately rich to simply beautiful. A gripping narrative guides us through the plethora of arresting images to the discovery of Dulcinea as the Virgin Mary, and a haunting penultimate depiction of a Pieta Length: 1hr 45min Other Info: ***Performed in French with English surtitles

Was no part of Daniel's character affected by what had gone before? (Moon)That's where the mental illness comes in. He can't recall. But some of us don't think he suffered from a mental illness.(Admittedly, it makes a better story;-) He kept recalling Daniel experiences too conveniently. Erratic behavior problems , yes.

(Evelyn), But some of us don't think he suffered from a mental illness.(Admittedly, it makes a better story;-) He kept recalling Daniel experiences too conveniently. But who knows what happens to him when he is taken away at the end? to the discovery of Dulcinea as the Virgin Mary, and a haunting penultimate depiction of a Pieta I like this. :-)

(Evelyn), But some of us don't think he suffered from a mental illness.(Admittedly, it makes a better story;-) He kept recalling Daniel experiences too conveniently. (Moon)But who knows what happens to him when he is taken away at the end? Ah...Thus the ambiguity.... For sure he didn't get any "treatment". Probably a mild tranquilizer,got counselling...told that he was not responsible for Sappas death... (after all, anybody who sets themselves up as a human shield against a bus has a microchip missing too)...and told to get on with his life. I am disappointed that he went back to work for Windmill; knowing they were sleazebags. But then that's what makes the story better.

(Moon) So does evil triumph at the end? No because Lucy tells him. So, the look at the end means what to you? (Linda) The impression that we're left with...except for those brief moments when Daniel and the audience see the "new" Pannicks, is that Donovan taught him nothing. Yes, until he says he is sorry for the trouble he caused (purely a polite comment IMO) and Lucy's answer, which is more important. Daniel's look may be hard but wouldn't you too have to take a hard look at yourself and what happened following such an encounter? (Linda) Was no part of Daniel's character affected by what had gone before? More guilt. (Moon) That's where the mental illness comes in. He can't recall. OK, I'm not a psychiatrist here, but I would've thought Daniel suppressed those thoughts because they caused pain. Just like he doesn't want to acknowledge Lucy on the platform because it brings back unpleasant memories. Remember, his attitude toward the Donovan experience would be tinged by what all the mental health professionals had to say and you know they'd be telling him he was out of his mind and he caused lots of trouble for everyone.

(Karen) I would've thought Daniel suppressed those thoughts because they caused pain. Do you mean consciously or unconsciously?

(Dorine) Do you mean consciously or unconsciously? Consciously. Daniel wanted to put that episode out of his mind. But when Lucy told him about how their lives had changed for the better because of him, Daniel would have to rethink it. Signed, Dr. Karen, who is will start writing scripts soon ;-)

(Dr. Karen)But when Lucy told him about how their lives had changed for the better because of him, Daniel would have to rethink it. Ah ha...that means there's a sequel coming... "The Return of Donovan Quick"

(Karen), So, the look at the end means what to you? It is a questioning look. "Is she mad?" or "Am I mad?" (Everyone knowsI don't mean angry) (Evelyn), Ah ha...that means there's a sequel coming... LOL! Let's take one sequel at a time, I'm waiting for TEOR. ;-)

Here's the link to Joyce's transcript, which you should bookmark for reference and if you want to copy/quote anything important like... Looking around. Nail biting. Playing with lips, nose squeeze. Sip. http://www.firth.com/int/satint2.txt

Thank you, Karen and Joyce. Are we still a go for tomorrow, then?

Is anyone having difficulty reading the transcript I uploaded? Do you have to scroll from left to right because it doesn't fit on the screen? Please let me know and I'll put up something different.

(Karen)Is anyone having difficulty reading the transcript I uploaded? Do you have to scroll from left to right because it doesn't fit on the screen? I had this problem at the gym, but here at work, it is fine...

(Karen) Is anyone having difficulty reading the transcript I uploaded? Nope. Thanks Joyce for the big job. Hey , love the facial descriptions.Was that you,boss? You forgot "Major bored look"

(Karen)Is anyone having difficulty reading the transcript I uploaded? No problems here, boss.

Here's another version: http://www.firth.com/int/satint_wagw.html Let's postpone the starting date until next Monday, since I think we'll be busy with newspaper publicity for HS later this week.

1)Hmm. Actually at the moment your guess is as good as mine. You know I read yesterday that I was. I check the papers daily to see what I'm doing but um if it's a good script I would love to get back with the same people and have another go. Alex, I'll take Newspapers for $500...What is jockeying for position in TEoR?

Oh, blast. I've already started.

Ha ha ha! No, that's OK, but I think the cateogory is Historical Newspapers ;-)

The second version of the transcript is good for me. First was too wide. It sounds like some people needed extra time and so I think next Monday might be better for everyone too. I like the Jeopardy idea. Guess the questions to his answers. There may be a couple of interesting ones there. ; ) Nominate your favorite body (face or hand) expression. Are there any answers not in Colinspeak? What did the Dallas interviewer ask him that cracked him up? You can see a lot of depths to plumb. Oh yeah we could also look at it to see if there was any news in it! Right!

Repetitive phrases for $200, Alex. And the answer is: "It�s just a very, very, very straightforward honest feel good fairy tale. It�s, it�s, it�s, I suppose what�s generically called a family film." Question: "Can you describe this film's genre using a minimum of 20 words?" Super job on the transcript, Joyce--thank you!

My tape should be on its way as we speak (hopefully). Thanks to all the ladies who sent me Marshall's email address. And a big thanks to Joyce for her excellent transcription work!

Thanks so much for the transcript, Joyce! Great job! And to Karen for getting it posted. Are you sure it was "Lisa, Lisa, are you there, Lisa"? I could have sworn he was saying "Rika". ;-)

Joyce, what a great job you did putting that transcript together! Thanks to Moon (thank you, thank you, Moon) I've watched the interview! Your transcript is going to be major reference material during the discussion next week! You did an amazing job!

(Rika)Are you sure it was "Lisa, Lisa, are you there, Lisa"? I could have sworn he was saying "Rika". ;-) No, I'm sure he said...Linda. If you take out the "s" in Lisa and just add an "nd"...It's the British accent that made you think he said Rika. Sorry to disappoiont. Also for next week...just a little tidbit to ponder...after the, "Lisa, Linda, are you there, Linda/Lisa" stuff, and the interview--he says "that was a nightmare". Now, was he referring to Lisa, the interview, or the technical difficulties???

Thank you for putting up the second transcript, Karen. The first was also too wide (I didn't notice untill I had printed it to take home, so I have allready started practicing, guessing some of the lines ;-)) Onde again, Joyce. Thank you for typing it up. The mentioning of facial expressions are priceless:-)

i understand the jeopardy game is about to begin next monday, thanks to joyce's excellent transcription, right ? i am sure some of you clever girls will come up with interesting/hilarious/naughty comments, since there are still some shadowy bits, esp. in the off screen parts. can we also add 'off the record' running commentaries, kind of an MST3K rendition of the whole thing ???? i am suggesting this because his answers to question 34 has me howling with laughter at the subtext that could be added.

(Karen)Let's move this subject to 166... I'll copy the posts over there as well. Thanks Okay CP.

Ooooh, more initials to put after my name. T.K., C.P. Is like academic degrees or knighthood. ;-)

Ooooh, more initials to put after my name. T.K., C.P. Is like academic degrees or knighthood. ;-) Ooooh, like Lady Karen perhaps or Doctor Karen?*,-)