Colin Firth - Film Discussions PART II

Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1058 of 1071: Karen (KarenR) * Wed, Jul 1, 1998 (14:04) * 16 lines (Evelyn) Did anyone else feel that there was an intense physical attaction between Nostromo and Emilia?...I can't find any reference in the book that would document this, nor in the notes. But I felt the screenplay made a point of this in a subliminal manner. You're quite right, Evelyn, it does give that impression but is unsupported by the book. What the book (or my reading of it and other stuff) would support is an adoration of the one character that Conrad has set up at the *good* end of the values continuum. Nostromo is the "natural" man (at the far left, i.e., beginning of evolution) and is only interested in his good name. He really has no principles, so to speak. Emilia, on the other hand, comes to symbolize the greater humanity that Conrad advocate (far right of the spectrum). She has given up her self and is understanding and kind with no ulterior motives. Throughout the book, Conrad mentions her and a Madonna image. Remember, in episode one, at the mining camp as they are eating, Nostromo calls her a Madonna. Anyway, at the very end, when Nostromo is trying to confess his sin and she doesn't want to hear it, this becomes her moment of vision, her renouncement of the materialism that she supported with her husband. There are so many great comments here today that I will need to read them over carefully and get back later or manana (pretend there's a tilde sobre la n)! Best Looking/Fav Scene (No deep symbolism here) ;-) Colin has got to look his absolutely best near the end when they're having a dinner party after they're won the battle against the Monteros. He's wearing a red vest and an open-necked shirt and looks soooooo confidant and yummy, maybe because he thinks all his troubles are over. Nostromo shows up and Charles tries to offer him some reward for his accomplishment in going over the mountains to notify General Barrios. Nostromo of course tells him that he can't do anything for him and Emilia goes after him. I love how Charles/Colin sees what is happening and understands what she is doing and how right it is for Nostromo. As he approaches them in the garden and addresses Nostromo as Senor Fidanza, his eyes look to the side, to Emilia as if to show he fully supports whatever she has just said. More later -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1059 of 1071: bethan (lizbeth54) * Thu, Feb 7, 2036 (00:36) * 2 lines I really enjoy your comments, Karen. I think a lot of people just thought about Nostromo "oh, it's not P&P" and gave up on it. But it does warrant some serious thought.... and he does look good, open necked, hatless and relaxed,(and wet in the mine!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1060 of 1071: bethan (lizbeth54) * Thu, Feb 7, 2036 (00:44) * 8 lines I am too brain dead to make any serious contribution, so here are a few quotes from about the time Nostromo came out in the UK (as always,ignore if you've seen them!) Producer (Italian) "I owe so much to the stoicism of the British actors. While the Italians and Spaniards would storm off the set complaining they couldn't work in the heat, Colin Firth and Albert Finney would just sit there sweating it out. Thank goodness for the stiff upper lip." Good lad, Colin! CF on Gould "He isn't very expressive but there are lots of complex emotions bubbling under the surface, I enjoy twisted characters. Playing heroes isn't my strong point!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1061 of 1071: bethan (lizbeth54) * Thu, Feb 7, 2036 (00:54) * 3 lines I'm doing this in short installments, as I keep on losing messages (so frustrating!) The same article says that filming Nostromo was very difficult because of the sweltering heat. CF had an assistant to supply him with water so he didn't become dehydrated, Sets were washed away by rainstorms, the director collapsed from exhaustion, SST was ill after being bitten by bugs, there were some murders near the film set, and local corruption was a problem. CF comments on the children begging for food. Not exactly a fun location! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1062 of 1071: Evelyn (lafn) * Thu, Feb 7, 2036 (01:24) * 9 lines I think a lot of people just thought about Nostromo "oh, it's not P&P" and gave up on it. I think that happened in UK more than in the US where N. was quite popular on PBS. Also didn't BBC sort of force-feed the audience with "mine shows". Rhodes, for instance. Favorite Look: Yeah, Karen, he looks the best in Black Tie. Also in the baggy, beige,linen, suit with the plantation hat!! Worth the Six Hours. Read On, Karen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1063 of 1071: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Feb 7, 2036 (02:37) * 29 lines BTW Evelyn sent me an article about the making of Nostromo from The Times. As promised, I will cull out the good stuff and post ASAP. But I did remember another Nostromo quote from the great article that Jana posted in April (the Santa Monica interview) that goes to Colin's understanding of his character (Charles Gould could be considered a little more complex than an Iowa farmer - hee hee - but how much F. R. Leavis did he read??) From the sandal-clad, shirttail flapping article: "In the BBC's production of Nostromo, he plays the decidely unheroic part of an Englishman who inherits a defunct silver mine in a fictional South American country called Costaguana. He determines to revive the mine because of 'his belief in the power of industry to civilise the world, but as he succeeds he sacrifices his wife - and everyone else emotionally." 'He's a tricky character" Firth continues, nas if all his characters weren't. 'I don't think I understood him or his obsession.' (Heide) I don't think Charles really cares that much about Costaguana's democracy. Everything is a means to an end for Charles. His mine will bring order to this perpetually corrupt and unstable country. But this is only a phase. "A better justice will come afterwards. That's our ray of hope." Charles sees true promise in this country and its people, and the Western world's tools will shape it and he will be the guiding force to make it happen because, as he tell Emilia, "A man's must work to some end." (Bethan) Fav scenes: The rainy night when Emilia asks if they can go home and says she wants children... Hold your pygmy horses!!! Isn't this the same scene where he says he's going to sleep in the next room because he doesn't want to disturb her when he leaves for the mine early the next morning??? I wanted to slap him. She's talking children and he goes to sleep elsewhere. Brrrr! that was cold. Otherwise, love your choice of scenes, Bethan, and all the great quotes from the book and articles. I'm still ploughing through the book, but by the time you, Evelyn and I finish, everyone here will have almost read it! (Heide) Could it have stayed true to Conrad if we had one less Montero OK, we could leave out General Montero. Pedro is a must! ;-) That reminds me of another great scene - the one between Pedro and Charles after Charles is picked up the first time. The two are sizing each other up. Pedro tries to intimidate Charles, but Don Carlos es muy macho aqui. Charles just stares Pedro down. He is totally fearless and refuses Pedro's offer of safe passage out of the country for him and his wife. PM: Then I will have your shot. CG: Then the mine will be blown up PM puts his arms around CG and it's like PM has just determined that Charles has the requisite number of cajones. Then says, OK, now that we understand each other we could work together. This is a great scene. Colin is cool as a cucumber and even gives a slight smirk when PM says that he is "educated" and lived in Europe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1064 of 1071: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Feb 7, 2036 (02:39) * 1 lines Shoot, missed an end tag. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1065 of 1071: Evelyn (lafn) * Thu, Feb 7, 2036 (05:18) * 3 lines requisite number of cajones. I wasn't going to mention this......but I thought surely someone would bring up the scene where he is dragged from his home to the scaffold!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1066 of 1071: Cheryl E (CherylQE) * Thu, Jul 2, 1998 (06:58) * 1 lines Hello to all, I started hanging around a few months ago and was finally able to post to 59 today. I look forward to catching up on all the above posts. I saw some of Valmont being shot (details on 59) so I thought I'd say hi here and come back again. And get some of his other movies in the meanwhile. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1067 of 1071: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Jul 2, 1998 (10:53) * 13 lines (Me) requisite number of cajones. (Evelyn) but I thought surely someone would bring up the scene where he is dragged from his home to the scaffold!!! LOL!! Yes, that is one of my favorite scenes...purely from a *dramatic* standpoint!! Welcome, Cheryl, to this venue. We'd love to have you participate here as well. Questions: (1) Did it strike anyone as odd that Nostromo had to go overland across the mountains to get General Barrios, but returned by sea? Check the map in your book, Bethan. (2) The meaning of names always gets me. Fidanza is easy, but the significance of Gian Battista. To me it sounds like John the Baptist, but I can't figure out how that relates to Nostromo and what he does. Can anyone shed some light on this. My knowedge of the NT is v. ltd. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1068 of 1071: bethan (lizbeth54) * Thu, Jul 2, 1998 (14:30) * 17 lines I think a lot of people just thought about Nostromo "oh, it's not P&P" and gave up on it. I think that happened in UK more than in the US where N. was quite popular on PBS. Also didn't BBC sort of force-feed the audience with "mine shows". Rhodes, for instance. Interesting point, Evelyn. I honestly think that in the UK, it was assumed that Nostromo wouldn't be successful. Rhodes had been a flop (although it wasn't all that bad) and Nostromo was tarred with the "another mining saga" brush, and put out on Saturday evenings ( not highly regarded for scheduling for some reason). And I think it was also assumed that women would be looking for another Darcy from Colin (One female reviewer wrote that she could havewept when she saw him with a beard!!!) which perhaps many were. WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE ITALICS?!!! I quite liked it though...and my 14 year old son actually thought it was very good. And my husband (who didn't like P&P) found it interesting.....perhaps it had more appeal for the men? (Evelyn) but I thought surely someone would bring up the scene where he is dragged from his home to the scaffold!!! To go back to appeal for the women, I must admit to also being rather transfixed by the scene where he strides (and I really mean STRIDE) in breeches and boots after Dr Monygham to ask him to work in the mine....."Doctor, doctor". Or perhaps it's just those oh so keen eyes of mine again!!! Gian Battista is John the Baptist. Why, I don't know! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1069 of 1071: Evelyn (lafn) * Thu, Jul 2, 1998 (16:09) * 4 lines After reading Cheryl's riveting saga on Valmont, and comparing it to Nostromo. I am struck that the poor man is jinxed. Valmont failed because Dangerous Liaision scuppered them and Nostromo was not a raging success in UK because Rhodes, a poor quality "mine saga" preceded Nostromo. It's a miracle the guy is still in the profession. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1070 of 1071: Heide (heide) * Thu, Jul 2, 1998 (17:40) * 27 lines I don't know if we've ever had such a successful discussion here as we seem to be having with Nostromo. Why is that? It can't be counted as anyone's favorite. Guess the complexity of the plot has more merit that we've given credit. Intense physical attraction between Nostromo and Emilia I believe it was there even if it wasn't in the book. The hand kissing was the clincher. As his lips are leaving her hand, his eyes slide to the side where Charles is watching him. Note the guilty expression. On Nostromo's side, I'd say it was still a Madonna-like attraction. Emilia is an idealized character throughout. On Emilia's side, I'd say she was carried away by Nostromo's heroics and romanticized them, romance being sorely lacking in her life by then. Upon discovering Ramirez's love for the ounger Viola daughter, she wistfully says, "How wonderful to be loved in that way." (Karen) Nostromo shows up and Charles tries to offer him some reward for his accomplishment in going over the mountains to notify General Barrios. Nostromo of course tells him that he can't do anything for him and Emilia goes after him. I love how Charles/Colin sees what is happening and understands what she is doing and how right it is for Nostromo. I too love this scene although I think he sees the tenderness between N. & E. (yes, not in the book) and needs to show he is in charge here. But he knows the right thing and the necessity to show respect and he does it. That's what I like best about Charles--he knows just what to do (except doing poor Emilia). (Karen) ...the one between Pedro and Charles after Charles is picked up the first time. The two are sizing each other up. Pedro tries to intimidate Charles, but Don Carlos es muy macho aqui. Charles just stares Pedro down. He is totally fearless... PM puts his arms around CG and it's like PM has just determined that Charles has the requisite number of cajones And this scene too, love it for the same reasons. Cojones, indeed. Two excellent points you bring up, Karen. Nostromo was a sailor. He could have gone by sea as well to bring Barrios back. And where was Barrios hiding his boat in those mountains? :-) Shades of Fitzcarraldo? And Gian Battiste/John the Baptist. Excellent association. Been eating your brain food, dear? (Bethan) And I think it was also assumed that women would be looking for another Darcy from Colin (One female reviewer wrote that she could have wept when she saw him with a beard!!!)... You're probably absolutely right. Though P&P-fever reigned in the US, it seems nowhere near to the depth as in the UK. Can Colin be forgiven yet for playing someone other than Darcy? Okay, down to the basics. Does he fight effectively with Montero? Heck, he misses him with the gun. How do we compare his fighting technique with say, 1000 Acres or others? In the scene celebrating at Casa Gould after Charles is saved and Montero escaped, I think Charles is a bit drunk. Personally, I think Colin does drunk scenes very well. Though this one is subtle, anyone care to rate their favorite drunk scenes? Valmont? Femme Fatale? Tumbledown? Pride & Prejudice? (gotcha!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 67 of 97 [drool]: Colin Firth - Film Discussions Response 1071 of 1071: Arami (Arami) * Thu, Jul 2, 1998 (18:52) * 4 lines *Gian Battista is John the Baptist. Why, I don't know!* Latin and some other Catholic countries have a strong tradition of Christian (first) names. A man may be christened John (the) Baptist after that particular saint and to differentiate expressly from other St Johns, as there are a few. Another such peculiar double Christian name for a man is Jose Maria, comprising the names of the Holy Family - with the name of Jesus customarily omitted out of respect. (Thought you might like to know...)

. Though P&P-fever reigned in the US, it seems nowhere near to the depth as in the UK. True. However, had P&P been shown on PBS (Public Broadcasting System... (BBC-Lite), it would have had far greater audience than it did on A&E. Which is a cable channel and reaches only a v. limited viewing audience. Unfortunately, PBS could not commit the money at production time and A&E did. Sadly, we also got commercials with A&E.

I don't know if we've ever had such a successful discussion here as we seem to be having with Nostromo. Why is that? It can't be counted as anyone's favorite. Guess the complexity of the plot has more merit that we've given credit. Nostromo is flawed, but it isn't shallow...at least it's trying to say something about the human condition. I too love this scene although I think he sees the tenderness between N. & E. (yes, not in the book) and needs to show he is in charge here. But he knows the right thing and the necessity to show respect and he does it. That's what I like best about Charles--he knows just what to do (except doing poor Emilia). I found myself wishing there were more scenes between Charles and Emilia. I think Emilia continues to love Charles (and he her), but she is deeply saddened by the loss of passion, or the transfer of it to the mine. In the book (and at the beginning of the film) it is very clear that there is a strong physical bond beween them... they both find each other very attractive. Okay, down to the basics. Does he fight effectively with Montero? Heck, he misses him with the gun. How do we compare his fighting technique with say, 1000 Acres or others? I could think of other more interesting and visible basics we could get down to but I don't mind using my eyes to scrutinise his fighting technique! I don't think Charles was used to physical combat....I mean , he's bigger than Montero! As to CF's technique elsewhere, I can only recall The Advocate when Courtois punches someone and then rubs his hand. I don't think CF is into macho "I can beat everyone and it doesn't hurt" roles. I wonder if he takes a stand on gratuitously violent roles (he never appears in them)....a missionary-influenced upbringing perhaps? John the Baptist...you're a regular font of knowledge, Arami! :-)

I wonder if he takes a stand on gratuitously violent roles (he never appears in them)....a missionary-influenced upbringing perhaps? Didn't he say somewhere that he would have a problem if a child of his wanted to join the army?

(Bethan) I think Emilia continues to love Charles (and he her), but she is deeply saddened by the loss of passion, or the transfer of it to the mine. Agreed, they still love one another, but Charles just has no time for Emilia. He is obsessed with the mine and neglects her as a result. Initially though Emilia appears to be as caught up with the working of the mine until she realizes that it alone will not change the violent and corrupt ways of the country. In the book (and at the beginning of the film) it is very clear that there is a strong physical bond beween them... they both find each other very attractive. I too noticed a few sections in Part I of the book where that physical attraction is described as follows: "Then, surprised by her husband's silence, she raised her eyes, opened wide, as pretty as pale flowers. He had done his spurs, and, twisting his mustache with both hands, horizontally, he contemplated her from the height of his long legs with a visible appreciation of her outward appearance. The consciousness of being thus contemplated pleased Mrs. Gould." ***** "Mrs. Gould, frowning, surveyed him from head to foot. With his riding breeches, leather leggings,...a Norfolk coat of gray flannel, and those great flaming mustaches, he suggested an officer of cavalry turned gentleman farmer. This combination was gratifying to Mrs. Gould's tastes...." Re: John the Baptist I must not have phrased my inquiry correctly. I was just wondering if anyone noticed anything about Nostromo (film or book) to suggest a parallel to the life of John the Baptist. All I know is that John the Baptist was a martyr; he gave his life for Jesus. However, I see nothing of a martyr in the actions of Nostromo. The Viola family continue to call him Gian Battistia throughout. Do they think he is a martyr to the European powers in charge? Or is it meant to be ironic. Nostromo's last name is Fi anza, which means fidelity or loyalty. However, Nostromo is not loyal really to anyone--not even himself. He betrays his good name. Nostromo betrays not only Charles and Captain Michell, but nore importantly the Viola family. So, if this explanation helps, does anyone see a tie-in? If not, there's a Catholic church a block away--and the Cardinal's residence is about 4 blocks from here. I would think some priest over there might be tickled to discuss the allegorical use of John the Baptist's name in Conrad's work!!

The Viola family continue to call him Gian Battistia throughout. That's because, notwithstanding any deliberate or coincidental allegory, as the case may be, Gian Battista - as I've been trying to point out in my faltering English all along - is supposed to represent his actual Latin American Christian (=baptismal; given; first) name, and it would be completely against his mummy's and daddy's, as well as, coincidentally, the author's wishes to call him Jose Maria or Colin, or anything else at all.

I understand your question, Karen, and I'd be interested in knowing too if Conrad chose Gian Battiste for Nostromo's Christian name intentionally. If he did, I would imagine it's meant to be ironic. Saintly, martyred, dying for his ideals... Nostromo's image appears noble and good but he is anything but that. Actually, he is more of a victim of his own image. Of course, this could all be bullsheet' too! :-)

Lovely photos, Renate. Thanks. ...he contemplated her from the height of his long legs with a visible appreciation of her outward appearance. The consciousness of being thus contemplated pleased Mrs. Gould."

I'd be interested in knowing too if Conrad chose Gian Battiste for Nostromo's Christian name intentionally. If he did, I would imagine it's meant to be ironic. Saintly, martyred, dying for his ideals... I've read a bit about Conrad and do not recall any evidence of his intentional manipulation of characters' names.

Arami on the issue of given names: yours seems a very sensible approach. If you cannot find any allegory, then probably there is none. And Renate's photographs: lovely, are they not? Oh, I must catch a viewing of those films sometime somehow!

Not that I mind, but I know I did NOT post this pic a second time - I just sat there looking at it full of admiration.....

If you cannot find any allegory, then probably there is none Perhaps the allegory is not in the name itself, but the person whose name it is. I do not know much about John the Baptist. But features of his life might be similar to Nostromo's. My booknotes says that the name Gould suggests gold. Costaguana comes from Costa Rica and guano (manure) My notes , (written by Martin Seymour-Smith( who died on July 1st, a famous British poet and scholar,) do not mention Gian Batista . One can say...Conrad was pretty tricky!!

I do not know much about John the Baptist. But features of his life might be similar to Nostromo's. One thing is certain: John the Baptist didn't steal a load of silver... The tragedy of Nostromo is his fall as an honest man. How can we talk about a parallel with a Biblical martyr?

John the Baptist didn't steal a load of silver That's for sure. But Nostromo started out as an idealist...an honest man....faithful to his country and his friends. Only at the end was he corrupted. BTW this book was originally serialized in a weekly magazine: "T.P.'s Weekly".

I've read a bit about Conrad and do not recall any evidence of his intentional manipulation of characters' names. I seem to recall the adage 'There is always a first time for everything'. John The Baptist as I remember the story (though pathetically bad). Growing up Catholic and all, he became a scapegoat for Jesus. In order for Jesus to spread his word and work, someone had to be sacrificed and as John The Baptist was the closest friend (in a manner of speaking), was the most logical person. Gian Battista(sp) was sacrificed due to love at the end.

John the Baptist was an older cousin of Jesus, born when his parents were already too old to have children.An angel told Zachary that his wife would bear him a son, and that the child should be named John. Zachary was incredulous and for that punished by becoming dumb. When the baby was in fact born, his wife asked what name should he be given. Zachary wrote "John" and was then given back speech. In adult life John became a famous prophet. He said that the Messiah was coming soon to Israel. He poured water over people's heads to symbolically cleanse them of their sins. When Jesus grew up, he visited John and asked to be baptised. John, however, hailed him as the Messiah and said that it was he, Jesus, who should cleanse him, John. In the end he let himself be convinced to baptise Jesus. After that we only hear about him because King Herod's wife bore him some grudge and when the king promised his daughter Salome anything she wanted after she danced especially well, Salome, by her mother's wish, asked for John's head, and so the baptist was beheaded. I hope this helps clear things.

Since I promised Evelyn that I would summarize the article she sent me, here goes: "An Epic Fight for Survival" by Nicholas Hellen describes the 10-year effort involved to film Nostromo. When the BBC originally considered it in the mid-1980s, "costume drama was at a low ebb It concluded that the subject was simply too big." David Lean then became interested in making a big-screen version, but six weeks prior to shooting in 1991, Lean died, and his scriptwriter said: "There seems little likelihood that anyone will be tempted to invest $30m in a story whose essential point is that mo ey is the root of all evil." When the BBC revisited it in the 1990s, the focus was on "frock flicks" or "adaptations of novels with romantic story lines that can be given a contemporary edge by accentuating their insights into the battle between the sexes. Jane Austen and the Bront�s are apparently required reading in the BBC drama department." Nostromo did not fall into this category as "the story is complicated and what love interest there is is fraught with compromise and disillusionment. The relationship between the English c aracters, Gould and his wife, Emilia, offers little emotional depth." Another perceived deterrent to ratings success in Britain was that the title characters had to be played by an Italian. The novel, although considered by Conrad to his "greatest and most difficult achievement," was not well-received at the time, and Conrad today is perhaps the least read great novelist in Britain. While compared to War and Peace, "Conrad's novel is ironic and stark where Tolstoy's is triumphal and heroic." When he finished it, Conrad wrote: "I've finished. There's no elation. No relief even." The TLS declared it "an artistic mistake." Conrad noted that the readers of the magazine serialisation compla ned "of so much space being taken by utterly unreadable stuff." In 1992, Fernando Ghia approached Michael Wearing, a BBC producer, who put his reputation behind the project. He "was attracted by the epic sweep of the book and saw it as fundamentally different to Rhodes. 'Rhodes was a drama documentary; this is an allegorical novel....It is one of those stories showing elements of the human condition on a grand scale.'" Financing turned the project into a "Europudding - a joint venture with producers divided by language and culture....Nostromo was too big for the BBC to tackle on its own." The funding diversity shows in the casting, and "British viewers will notice the compromises. Italian actor speaks to Italian actress in heavily accented English....Nostromo is taken by the Italian actor, Claudio Amendola, and Decoud by a French-Canadian, Lothaire Bluteau. The Goulds are played by Colin Firth and Serena Scott Thomas, with Albert Finney appearing as the disillusioned, alcoholic Dr. Monygham. As Darcy in Pride and Prejudice, Firth made millions swoon. But the role of Gould calls for an unattractive beard and the silver mine as his only true passion, if also the setting for a loveless coupling with his wife. The only romance involving Firth took place off-screen. During filming he split with Jennifer Ehle, his co-star in Pride and Prejudice, and fell in love with Livia Giuggioli, an Italian production assistant." After four months, the difficulties associated with the location and climate came to a climax as the director Alastair Reid had to be hospitalized "after losing consciousness. For months he had spurred himself on with heavy doses of energy-giving glucose. His body had finally refused to cooperate." On one night's shoot, Serena Scott Thomas called the hospital for direction. "The tension was palpable. Michael Wearing...admits now that at that point he began to fear the �10 production might have to be bandoned....Filming was only eight days from completion, but a stoppage could wreck a venture that had already taken 10 years to reach this stage. Reid took the call, and for two days resumed command from his sick bed." "The production seemed to be cursed by bad luck from the start. Ghia thought he had come forearmed against disasters by securing the personal blessing of the president of Colombia and being able to enlist 15,000 Arhuaco Indians as extras." Despite this, there were pay disputes, noisy political demonstrations, set construction disasters and bad publicity over environmental issues (destruction of some rainforest on the edge of Cartage�a's botanical gardens). There were also fears of sabotage by disgruntl d crew. The weather was of course a major factor. "Unwelcome breaks caused by the frequent downpours became routine....The heat and humidity were overpowering. A video diary kept by Reid shows Firth struggling into his period costume, saying: 'You have to have a masochistic delight in sweating and suffering. The Brits love this stuff more than anybody. It is the Italians and the Spanish who complain about it.'" "Unsurprisingly, a dark humour gripped the film-makers. In the claustrophobic jungle, the father of Charles Gould is murdered with an axe by the Indian slaves. The victim is played by Wearing. In a later scene, a group of men were required to be executed by a firing squad. Reid gleefully lined up almost the entire production team." Hellen's own review: "If audiences can survive the second and weakest of the four 90-minute episodes, it should prove a hit....Nostromo not only looks good, the story is well paced and the performances much stronger. Finney is particularly fine, and, while Firth seems muted as a man in the grip of an obsession, Scott Thomas makes much of what could have been a slight role." According to the article, Lean's collaborators had resurrected plans to make a feature film version that would be directed by Hugh Hudson. The producer, Serge Silberman, expected to began shooting within a year.

Well done, Karen! There was also another quite long article about Nostromo in the Sunday Observer. It was a favourable article, praising the intrinsic value of the project and the performances, but stating that its worth would not be reflected in the viewing figures....ie it was unlikely to be popular viewing. Funnily enough, I saw a comment by Michael Wearing just the other day ...he said that a drama about the impact of industrialisation in the 19th century on a Third World country just wouldn't have mass appeal, unlike P&P (for which he was also Exec. Producer) which was all about gender politics.

Thank you, Karen. Only you could have given us such an interesting and accurate summary of a v. long article. a feature film version that would be directed by Hugh Hudson. My thought when I read this was: If BBC with six hours couldn't make the book's plot logical and seemless.....can you imagine what a movie in two hours will do!!

seemless., pl. correct to: seamless

John The Baptist.... a scapegoat for Jesus... someone had to be sacrificed... Gian Battista(sp) was sacrificed due to love at the end. You're so right - this is a pathetically inadequate, inappropriate and completely wrong comparison.

Ah yes, Arami, but my 7 year old daughter beat you to the quick:) She explained all to me that John the Baptist was indeed the cousin of Jesus, Elizabeth being his mother, who was 40 when she had him. I went to Public School whereas my daughter is receiving a Catholic education:) As for inappropriate, not nearly as some of what you wrote.

As for inappropriate, not nearly as some of what you wrote. Now, now - let's not get personal. You don't really want to make me angry, do you? Well, then - back to the film discussion, there's a good girl :-)

You don't really want to make me angry, do you? Haven't quite decided yet. But getting your ire up is indeed fun;) Hee hee.

Well, then - back to the film discussion I'm sorry. Have you been a participant in this film discussion?

Hee hee;)

(Laura) She explained all to me that John the Baptist was indeed the cousin of Jesus, Elizabeth being his mother, who was 40 when she had him. Oh. Lets see.... If Elisabeth was the mother of John the Baptist Fitzwilliam Darcy must be his father! And if his sons' cousin was Jesus, the latter must have been the lost brother of either Fitzwilliam Darcy or his wife Elisabeth. I knew it! I knew it!!! Oh, had I but more time I would write the story of John Baptist Fitzwilliam Darcy, who would also be the grandson of Lady Catherine, and somehow related to the likes of Mr. Collins and George Wickham, unfortunately. ;-P

LMAO!

I'm sorry. Have you been a participant in this film discussion? I see you're really overstretching your wits to provoke a confrontation :-)

(Renate) Oh, had I but more time I would write the story of John Baptist Fitzwilliam Darcy, who would also be the grandson of Lady Catherine, :-S

Renate, LOL!! :-D

By George, I think she's got it;)

John the Baptist didn't steal a load of silver. Allegory: 1(a) the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human conduct or experience, (b) an instance of such expression. 2. a symbolic representation. The tragedy of Nostromo is his fall as an honest man. Nostromo is neither honest nor dishonest. He is a "natural" man as is discussed in most of the lit crit. He has no ideals; he is amoral. He exists for himself, his good name, his vanity. There is no good or bad, honest or dishonest in his fundamental world. He just *is.* His fall is most often described as the original Fall of Man, i.e., Adam's fall. He awakens to the "knowledge of good and evil that is said to have corrupted the first man in Eden....Gould is not God--or the devil--dealing out the choice, or tempting the man. He is Nostromo's double as well as the initiator of his fall. That is to say, Gould's corruption is the model for Nostromo's, and Gould himself is an Adam, disturbing creation in the 'paradise of snakes' where the mine slept until he resolved to use it for human salvation. Evil (one cannot tell about good, since there's very little of it in the novel) is exterior and is not, even, moral. The evil is the silver." (Hay, pp.182-3) How can we talk about a parallel with a Biblical martyr? By the mere fact that Conrad gave his title character that name. Naming characters is not a haphazard exercise for some authors. Conrad borrowed extensively from several sources for the names of most of his major and minor characters, situations and scenery. They are: Edward B. Eastwick's Venezuela (1868), which was in Conrad's library when he died; G.F. Masterman's Seven Eventful Years in Paraguay(1870); and S. Perez Triana's Down the Orinoco(1902). In The Political Novels of Joseph Conrad by Eloise Knapp Hay, which I have quoted above, the real sources of the characters' names are discussed at some length. Another author, Albert J. Guerard, in Conrad the Novelist notes how Conrad subtly juxtaposes the figure of Charles Gould on horseback and the equestrian statue of Charles IV of Spain. I believe he chose John the Baptist's name in the same way as he chose the last name of Fidanza. Both are literary devices and he uses them symbolically and ironically. Conrad, while an avowed atheist, was respectful of his upbringing. He did not use the name in an irreverent way. In the same way, I hope no one will take offense at my own conclusions because no disrespect is intended. John the Baptist is an agent in the process of saving souls. When Nostromo assumes his real name, he has saved the mine and lost his own soul. After burying the silver on the island, he comes to the realization that he has been betrayed by the Europeans and that both Giorgio and Teresa were right. "The decision is based on a moral bargain: he has bought the treasure with his own soul, forfeited when he betrayed Decoud and Teresa to save it." (Hay, p.205) According to Conrad: "Nostromo had lost his peace; the genuineness of all his qualities was destroyed. He felt it himself, and often cursed the silver of San Tom�. His courage, his magnificence, his leisure, his work, everything was as before, only everything was a sham." He is described later as "the man whose soul was dead within him." When material interests are put before humanity, all have lost their souls: Gould, Decoud and now Nostromo. At the end, I think there is some ambiguity whether his a tempt at repentance is successful. But then again, Nostromo may be no different than Moby Dick (a fish story) or Grapes of Wrath (about migrant workers) or East of Eden (about lettuce). Like Heide said earlier, this could all be bullsheet! ;-) wits overstretched No, just my patience.

Perhaps we can move on to subject on which there can be no disagreement. Could they have picked an uglier woman to play Antonia? ;-)

Antonia should have been beautiful...not well cast, I'm afraid. She was modeled on Conrad's first love. I think we should touch on some lighter things! Question, what colour is Colin's hair, really? In some shots he looked almost blonde, but when kissing Emilia's hand at the harbourside ("God willing, never without you!) his hair looks reddish. Ditto in the scene when he and Emilia meet the new President in the presidential palace after the political upheaval. Highlights brought out by the sun? And he always looks so clean, almost schoolboyish......particularly in that white Eton collar. I thnk I prefer him slightly rumpled!

Allegory: ...the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions... ...a symbolic representation. And I still don't see what John the Baptist has to do with it. By the mere fact that Conrad gave his title character that name. I would really need a better proof than that. wits overstretched No, just my patience.,/I. Right again - the former just doesn't come into this...

Out, damned italics.

Out, damned italics.

(Karen)By the mere fact that Conrad gave his title character that name. (Arami)I would really need a better proof than that. Well tonight I will have a seance and invite Conrad himself to explain all. I will give him the URL to this damn board and have him personalize it just for you Arami. Don't you think that is enough information, how much research must one do to satisfy you. Why don't you do the research?

Thank you Karen... For a scholarly treatise. I would have to go to a university library to get such. Your rural friend is grateful. (Bethan) Re; color of CF's hair. Highlights?? I think so. Very cool. I thnk I prefer him slightly rumpled! I keep telling ya' that rumpled baggy, beige linen suit.!!!!

Gould's hair is supposed to be red, so maybe they were going for a strawberry blonde look?

Joseph Conrad about Nostromo

...Nostromo's corruption... Deprived of reputation, Nostromo seeks compensation in wealth... Like Gould, Nostromo pins his faith on materialism in order to compensate for his loss of prestige... The central tragedy of "Nostromo" is incompatibility of material interests and moral principles... (from "Joseph Conrad, A Biography" by Jeffrey Meyers)

I read both Hay's and Conrad's texts cited above and find them complementary to each other. A fitting conclusion to the debate. I did find Conrad's reference to "the beautiful Antonia" amusing. She would be the only reason he would return to (fictional) Sulaco. In your dreams, Joe. (Ann) Gould's hair is supposed to be red, so maybe they were going for a strawberry blonde look? Do you think they colored his hair for this role too? I thought he had some reddish tint to his hair in other movies- Fever Pitch comes to mind so I always assumed his hair color in Nostromo was authentic, just lightened a bit by the sun.

I thought he had some reddish tint to his hair in other movies- Fever Pitch comes to mind so I always assumed his hair color in Nostromo was authentic, The dark brown hair with reddish tint in FP looked like a cheap dye job to me.

Test Test test test

Are the italics done now? *sigh*

I thought he had some reddish tint to his hair in other movies- Fever Pitch comes to mind so I always assumed his hair color in Nostromo was authentic, The dark brown hair with reddish tint in FP looked like a cheap dye job to me. Evelyn I think his hair does have auburn tints, brought out by sun or strong arc lights. Nostromo is the authentic colouring, I believe. Strongly agree with you about FP! I suppose if you make a movie for $2.5 million you have to economise, but not on his hair! Dyed black hair can have a metallic red glint in strong lighting (as on a film set). The Makeup people (person?) should have avoided this. I doubt if CF would have noticed!

(Bethan) I must admit to being rather transfixed by the scene where he strides (and I really mean STRIDES)...after Dr. Monygham...Or perhaps it's just those oh so keen eyes of mine again!!! And your *oh so keen eyes* have been focused on what is truly important! I had referred that little sighting over to our MIA contour checker when I received my tape, but never got a confirmation. Good catch. Keep those eagle eyes alert. ;-) (Ann) Gould's hair is supposed to be red, so maybe they were going for a strawberry blonde look? (Heide) I thought he had some reddish tint to his hair in other movies- Fever Pitch comes to mind so I always assumed his hair color in Nostromo was authentic, just lightened a bit by the sun. Didn't one of the interviews call his hair "ginger" colored? Really makes you wonder what color his hair is. Bethan: I know how you collect articles, etc. I can e-mail the unabridged text of The Times article that Evelyn sent me if you wish.

And your *oh so keen eyes* have been focused on what is truly important! (Karen) Gives new meaning to the expression "hanging loose"!! :-) Thanks for the offer of the Nostromo article, Karen. But I checked my archives and it is actually one that I'd kept. I remembered reading it but wasn't sure if I'd cut it out.

(Karen) Really makes you wonder what color his hair is. Has anyone ever actually seen him in an au naturel state (and no, I don't mean in the buff ;-)).

Another Country, Dutch Girls, A Month In The Country - natural hair colour. Master Of The Moor - slightly questionable, but sometimes the film or video tape quality (contrast) may alter colours. Playmaker, The Hour Of The Pig (The Advocate) - the buff.

I always thought he hair was brown, sort of a chestnut brown. Darkened for P&P and lightened with highlights for Nostromo.

I've found an interview in which he says that he used to be blonde as a child. He is now presumed light brown with fair-reddish highlights, but one can never be sure, and colour hair rinses seem temptingly easy to apply.

I think light to chestnut brown with fair-reddish highlights is a pretty accurate description! I don't think it was lightened for Nostromo, more likely naturally bleached by five months in the sun.

Ah, very true about the sun!!! And I'm glad I was right on target. This time:)

Would anyone, besides me, like to discuss Valmont.? If Cheryl would graciously consent to be at the helm. I feel this is a golden opportunity. Or have we done V. too many times.

Would love to do Valmont, particularly in view of Cheryl's most interesting comments and insight. And I've never actually discussed Valmont....it's still quite "new" to me! blonde as a child He must have have looked like little Lord Fauntleroy, blonde, curly headed and angelic!

Oooooh, little Lord Firthleroy! A Valmont discussion the umpteenth time is fine by me, now that I have found a way to avoid AB's drawl by simply watching the dubbed version :-)).

have we done V. too many times. When it comes to HIM, how many times is too many? He must have have looked like little Lord Fauntleroy, blonde, curly headed and angelic! Indeed: there is a picture of Colin as a child somewhere on FoF's main site, I believe. Or at least there used to be.

Indeed: there is a picture of Colin as a child somewhere on FoF's main site, I believe. Is that the one where he's attempting to cram a whole bun into his mouth? Very sweet (although obviously hasn't mastered the art of polite eating!) :-)

Is that the one where he's attempting to cram a whole bun into his mouth? Very sweet (although obviously hasn't mastered the art of polite eating!) :-) } I must be spending too much time around here, because my mind conjured a very different image upon reading "cram a whole bun into his mouth".

Have we EVER done a discussion on A MONTH IN THE COUNTRY? I don't recall that we have?

For 1999 Production Notes/Status Status: Announced Comments: Director Stephen Frears is near a deal to direct after Mike Newell had to leave the project because of schedule conflicts. Last Updated: 19 March 1998 Note: Since this project is categorized as being in production, the data is subject to change or could be removed completely. Directed by Stephen Frears Cast (in alphabetical order) John Cusack Written by John Cusack Nick Hornby (nov

And this involves Colin Firth how...

Sheer willpower:)

Ya never know maybe CF will have a cameo; it is in preproduction stage!

Ya never know maybe CF will have a cameo; it is in preproduction stage! Aaah...

Or John Cusack will morph into CF and then we will all be happy:)

I thought we were going to discuss either: VALMONT or A MONTH IN THE COUNTRY. Waddya' say?? No one's been at home here all week.... Now I find Nick Hornby in ????? (what is the name of the film?) :-)))))

I vote for AMITC :-)

When will we ever discuss Master of the Moor?! Or Tumbledown? :-)

(Renate) Master of the Moor?! I haven't seen it yet, baby :-(

nor have I

Nor have I

I have:) It doesn't have wide distributorship here in the States for some unknown reason. AMITC is a great movie and looking forward to discussing it!! I had a great idea didn't I:)

I have:) It doesn't have wide distributorship here in the States for some unknown reason. AMITC is a great movie and looking forward to discussing it!! I had a great idea didn't I:) I have AMITC. It is "Master of the Moor" most of us have not seen. You have, Laura???

I've seen Master of the Moor, yes!!! about two years ago right around the time I saw Lost Empires:) Sorry, that was during my love affair w/ dear boy. I haven't seen The Widowing of Mrs. Holroyd. Where he plays a drunk (tho I've heard not a good one either:)) Master of the Moor is a Ruth Rendell/Barbara Vine mystery that leaves one quite flat at the ending. He's heavier in this role; face is a little bit more puffed out. One good thing the girl who played his wife was ugly:) hee hee. Hated that stringy long hair!!

Laura : Master of the Moor...flat ending....fat face...ugly wife What a recommendation!! AMITC I had a great idea didn't I:) You know, Laura...I really admire your humility :-) I'm for AMITC

AMITC or Tumbledown would be fine with me. Make it TD. I feel my shoulder twitching. ;-)

Laura : Master of the Moor...flat ending....fat face...ugly wife What a recommendation!! Each to her own taste. It's actually my favourite in terms of his appearance...I prefer the slightly heavier look . I guess that was his inbetween relationships period, probably he was living on his own and not as happy as he is now. But "fat"......NO! And I liked The Widowing of Mrs Holroyd. The BBC Performance series was intended to reflect stage performances....single sets and limited action as you would see in the theatre. The style of acting therefore differs. All the actors in the series were well known actors from the theatre rather than TV. AMITC is fine by me.

Re: Master of the Moor and The Widowing...: Bethan...each to her own taste, Know what you mean...I like Joe Prince ....in FF

(Laura) Master of the Moor is a Ruth Rendell/Barbara Vine mystery that leaves one quite flat at the ending. He's heavier in this role; face is a little bit more puffed out. One good thing the girl who played his wife was ugly:) hee hee. Hated that stringy long hair!! Laura, it is not the first time that our tastes go into different directions, so you will not be surprised that I disagree with you again. All what he wears, the wide shirts, pullover and parka, even his hearcut seem designed to make him look heavier, and physically strong. (.... and then act against it...) Perhaps also the very economical use of make up - if there was any make up at all. - I found Emma Croft, the actress who played Lynn, very creditable as a pretty young woman (but I agree that her uneven skin was brutally exposed by the light). She was *not* pretty in the way we usually get to see actresses in films, with perfect hair and skin and make up in every situation, but pretty in the way we see someone in real life, in a rural surrounding. And Lynn Whalby wasn't supposed to wear make up, anyway. In the first scene her hair was stringy, yes, perhaps just a bad hair day, perhaps? :-). But no kidding, I would not be surprised to find out it was done purposely, to emphasize the change in her appearance later on. The light of the whole production is everything but flattering, it reveals, displays mercyless every spot, scar and skin imperfections of the actors, and there are many. But it gave the production a kind of very realistic, almost "documentary" look. Fascinating. I am afraid I will have to wait a long time until I find a movie that is as rich in so many aspects as this one. On this movie it all came together, apparently everybody did a great job (other than, f.e. P&P and FP, which have irritating flaws des ite all their excellence): Great script, very good characterisation, intelligent dialogues, dialogues which don't insult the thinking brain, great photography, terrific use of music, excellent settings, gorgeous if dark scenery. Excellent performances by everybody. Apparently very efficient director. It is a dark, dramatic and sad story, with a perfect ensemble of actors, would like to mention in particular George Costigan, his Inspector Manciple was just terrific. I would give MOTM five out of five stars any time. First time I watched it I was a bit doubtful, I found it too "mysterious" :-), i.e. too many hints, too many distracting details, too many loose ends, but I have changed my mind very soon. Since then I have watched it almost as often as P&P, and I find something new and amazing in there eve y time. What a perfect production, and what an honour and luck for an actor to be part of it. What a pity hardly anyone gets to see it outside the UK. "What a waste. What a waste!" Can you guess I am excessively fond of MOTM? :-) But not of "Mrs. Holroyd".

Arami, I like your review of MOTM. I watch for it every time a Ruth Rendell mystery is on cable, but it never is the correct one! Sounds very interesting! I should like to see it someday! Yes, I can tell it is one of your favorites!

Stephanie, though Arami and I have a lot in common, we are not identical. ;-)) How you can tell: she knows much more four-syllable words (and, perhaps, four-letter words, too), and her English is in general, eh, well, more British, - so I take it as a compliment that you take me for her. ;-) Talking of vocabulary, please forgive my repetitions, and if I wasn't clear in some points. I was very tired when I finished the post.

Sorry, dear friends. Not my day today I'm afraid .... Nan, would you please remove this garbage.... thanks a lot.

I have copied Bethan's post from #98, for continuation: Bethan wrote: Re MOM I would say that it was shot without makeup, sometimes in less than flattering light and often in the fullest close up possible. And it's still my favourite, for "looks"! And I agree about the "heavy" look....he was often wearing a shirt, jumper, corduroy jacket and a bulky unfashionable anorak. I'm surprised he managed to stride across those moors with such alacrity!

I would say that it was shot ..(snip)..... and often in the fullest close up possible. ;-)! That's perhaps why we love it so much, because that is as near as we ever will get to him! And it's still my favourite, for "looks"! Agreed. He looks neither gorgeous, nor stunning or beautiful in the Darcy way in this one, but very real, and very cuddly :-).

Renata, Ooops. I'm sorry. I'll be more careful next time.

Master of the Moor!! I have a raging headache to remember it by. I saw it last night for the first time and since I always watch a new Colin film with a bottle of wine, let's just say next time I ought to eat some food too. How did it end? No, just kidding, although I was a bit confused and probably will need several viewings to clear it up. As for looks, yum yum yum. Especially the outdoor shots on the moors. How come I can't sit outside in the middle of nowhere and have a gorgeous, rugged, masculine nature boy with windblown hair and a beautiful smile come upon me? As for next movie choice, I am up for anything. Do enough of us have Tumbledown? Another non-controversial film ;-)

very real, and very cuddly :-) Especially with that shirt hanging out! Definitely needs a tuck in! And I agree about the "real" look!

Definitely needs a tuck in! Oh, yes, please, let me tuck it in! :-d... (Heide) Master of the Moor!! I always watch a new Colin film with a bottle of wine.... Mercy, woman! With MOTM being only 2 hours long, how did you survive P&P and Nostromo?! How many gallons did you need, and how many aspirin? ;-)) I saw it last night for the first time ......(snip)...... I was a bit confused and probably will need several viewings to clear it up. Do it, and give us full report, please!

Renate: MOTM - only 2 hours long? But it's in 3 parts... have I f...d up something? :-) Stefanie:Renata, Ooops. Hope you don't mind another correction, but her name is RenatE :-)

Stef, it's good to see you back posting regularly. I hope you'll stay awhile even if I do misspell your name frequently. I think it was that extra hour of MOTM that did me in. Luckily, I hadn't started my bottle of wine policy when I first saw P&P or Nostromo but I haven't seen Lost Empires yet. Perhaps I should switch to a pitcher full of smoothies when I watch that. So which will be our next film? AMITC? Valmont? Tumbledown?

Renate: MOTM - only 2 hours long? But it's in 3 parts... have I f...d up something? :-) :-) Don't know, how many hours has *your* version? 4? 5? In this case I would like to have the uncut version :-))! I've heard rumours that it shows a very long and passionate affair with a beautiful German woman aka Frau Sch�tterli? Stefanie:Renata, Ooops. Hope you don't mind another correction, but her name is RenatE :-) Thanks, Arami, for putting this right. You aren't in proof reading business, by chance? Stefanie (or Stephanie? :-) ), though I am indeed very peculiar about my name, RenatA is ok with me, since it is a) written on top of the message, and b) the Italian version of my name....

(Evelyn)You know, Laura...I really admire your humility :-) Hee Hee Renata, darling, where in the world did you get that I did not like MOTM in the diatribe that I wrote? I only gave a physical description of CF. I did not care for then ending that leaves one guessing what the hell went on! I think you take too much on a two sentence paragraph and start ranting because you like to. I liked MOTM. I'm not a Mystery fanatic, so it really isn't my cup of tea:) CF played S. Whalby quite credibly. Quite eerily, too. But I'm still trying to figure out who did what to whom.

Ciao, Renata! Come sta? :-) I did not care for then ending that leaves one guessing what the hell went on! Double suicide pact.

Me: MOTM - only 2 hours long? But it's in 3 parts... RenatA: Don't know, how many hours has *your* version? I would like to have the uncut version... Could it be only 40 mins per episode? I've never really noticed that. Very strange! it shows a very long and passionate affair with a beautiful German woman aka Frau Sch�tterli Uhmmm... Thanks, Arami, for putting this right... RenatA is ok with me Oh, bother...

This may have been asked before, but has anyone in the U.S. been able to get their hands on MOTM, Lost Empires, or Tumbledown? If I remember correctly, these were all made for tv movies? Anyway, if anyone has been able to track down a copy of these that we can watch on our VCR's, please let me know--I feel so deprived! I was fortunate enough to get a copy of FP from wonderful Heide a few months ago, for which I am eternally grateful! Trina

My 2 cents on MOTM Like most Colin films, it gets better with each viewing. He looks quite appealing. Once again, his portrayal of a tortured soul is dead on. Father and son, both so caught in their love the wife/mother. She destroyed 2 lives when she left. My question is: why did it take so many years for the rage to surface? Did anyone notice that his running was very odd here? Nothing like FP. Hope he was only running "in character".

Did anyone notice that his running was very odd here? Nothing like FP. Hope he was only running "in character". Emma, can you specify a bit what you mean with "very odd"? Curious. I did not find his running odd so far, but it was indeed different from FP, or Tumbledown. But I will watch it again soon :-)) , and pay some more attention to his running style.

Stephen Whalby ran like a non-althlete, his arms were flapping about, like he was going to trip on something. especially when he waa running down the alley. But his walk was the same, that some long legged stride, can spot him walking anywhere. Those soulful Eyes His big brown eyes, full with tears when he said, "I don't know, God, Lynn, I don't know..." When he was recording notes for his article, into a small tape recorder, I imagine this is how he records his tapes for son Will.

He runs differently in Wings of Fame. He must adjust running style to character! Same eyes though! I don't know if we've decided what the next film discussion will be, but would anyone be interested at some stage, not necessarily now, in discussing the Rupert Brooke radio play "The One Before the Last". I've just heard it for the first time, and thought it was excellent. It was marvellous to hear so much of Colin's voice, and I've always wondered how he would read poetry (very well!) He really does have the Voice and the Looks ....all he needs are the right roles to display his talents!! And a little bit more dialogue, pl-e-eease! Anyway I'll save my enthusiasm for the discussion (hopefully!). I think I enjoyed the play more because I'd just read "Forever England (life of Rupert Brooke) by Mike Read (ISBN 1-85158-995-3), and felt I knew more about the characters. Recommende read.

Oh, incase the above all sounds terribly serious and lit-critty, this was the first time I have EVER found a radio play to be sexy! How does he do it? :-)

(Bethan)I've just heard it for the first time Arghhh! Has the Beeb just repeated it and I missed it?

Days and days I couldn't log in, and I feel guilty continually signing up as a new person just to get to write. Maybe I'll send an Email about how to clean that up. That said, I am catching up on the CF boards--it's a lot to read, but wonderful fun and I love what everyone has to say. I also ended up on the Porch once while trying to log in, and came across Nan outside of Drool. It made me glad that 1)she's running things and 2)well, that's she's running things. I mean, I am new and have NO opinion on anything so far, except that here it's easy to have fun and meet interesting, cool gals (and maybe guys, for all I know). But I was grateful for her defense of thi space. It was so metaphorical to me, the whole contretemps, but on a plain old earthly level it was practically and tactically well handled. If nobody knows what I'm talking about I'll elaborate (or look for yourself on Porch 15). I look forward to getting current on this topic as well as other CF related. It just tickles me that people on other boards could get annoyed with CF and Firthmania :-)

(CherylE)It just tickles me that people on other boards could get annoyed with CF and Firthmania :-) Yes, we had some unpleasantness a few months ago at that topic but it is well over now. In fact, it's so over that Mike and I have been chatting in email about Spring things and sharing ideas. It was really just a misunderstanding that got out of hand. I didn't mention it before because I didn't want to drag anyone else into it. Knowing you all as I do, I know that there will be some comments you read that will make you wild...I implore you to remember that it's over. You don't have to comment on somethin that happened 4 months ago...it will do no good because, as I mentioned, Mike and I have worked it out between us. Be nice, now :-) And Cheryl, I thank you for the compliments...you're sweet :-) But in reality, I'm just here to make the place pretty and keep the conversation going--the site belongs to Terry.

Nice job, Nan. But next time you're ambushed and outnumbered, feel free to call out the Cavalry!! :-)

So when do we start discussing AMITC; I've read the book a couple years back, and thought maybe we could throw some insights from book to movie. I know not all has read the book, but it really doesn't stray too far. Oh, and one other thing, AMITC, the book, is listed as a childrens/preteen book at the Boston Public Library. *shrug*

(cheryl E) I also ended up on the Porch once forgive my ignorance: what or where is the Porch?

Well, I found it out by myself - and that took me to the babes conference - and mygod those guys do tackle their drool differently. I don't mean to be discorteous to them, but thank you all ladies for drooling the way you do. I really enjoy it here. I'm very glad I found you.

Maybe you could give us seminars?

Terry, you don't really mean it!

I hope this is the right board : I recently wrote to The History Channel (History Channel.com) since they have shown Hostages about once a year. I asked them to show TUMBLEDOWN, since it pertains to the Falklands War and is directed by Sir Richard Eyre. (did not mention DB...wanted them to think I was a real history scholar!) They answered: "We also appreciate the program suggestions mentioned in your e-mail. We will certainly keep your ideas in mind as we acquire future programming for The History Channel. Viewer correspondence is the best way for us to know what subjects interest our viewers. Be assured that we will continue to try and acquire comparable material, especially those programs likely to attract viewers as appreciative as yourself." I know it's a canned remark, but if enough viewers request a program, they might show an interest. email to: view1@aetv.com address to "Viewer Relations" Now this" history scholar " is off to the Babes Conference (thanks Gi)!

(nan) Absolutely, Terry was/is magnificent and did/is doing a fabulous job. Yup, history is history, and it's such as run-of-the-mill kind of discussion.But it can get so stupid if the general goal of peaceful coexistence gets lost. For me it highlights one of the cliches that you hear both ways: women are better at getting along and working togther despite differences (nurturing, blah, blah as evidence) AND men are better .......(sports, business, and combat teams as evidence). I think it's a charac er thing. And I am in awe of the technical and managerial skills and time it takes to run something like this. Very grateful. Nice that you're humble, Nan, but entropy is death. Nobody around here seems controlling or uptight (hurray), but tiny loving nudges can make all the difference. Which brings me back to the topic. I will post part of this on 97 on the off chance that there are some people who don't overlap. What must be posted twice? Ya'll are so funny you brightened up half of Manhattan's day. I printed (whew) a lot and read it in a restaurant and on the subway, and I was laughing and pounding the table or my leg, depending on where I was. People didn't seem to think I was crazy; they were intrigued as to what was so damn funny. I must be very cool to have such a thick sta k of SUCH funny writings, was the general consensus. And when I wasn't laughing, I had that special smile mentioned on 59. Thank you all and I look forward to AMITC or whatever.

I'm not sure it's really clear that (I think I understand that) Terry runs the site and Nan the board. I'm speechless with admiration, appreciation, gratitude, ...(I'm speechless, but somebody tell Terry.)

I'm not sure it's really clear that my kudos are...I'm speechless with admiration, appreciation, gratitude, ...(I'm speechless, but somebody tell Terry.)

Well now that's bizarre . . .

Now, AMITC, can we get back to it? How about we view it over the week-end and start a discussion on Monday or Tuesday?

I'm in. I ordered 3 things through RoP (everything that was less than $80) to begin with, but I'll rent AMITC. I echo Trina's question re the TV movies that someone in the US might have. Pardon my ignorance, but does it make a difference whether a movie's custodian is in the US or not? If the gal who benefits is willing to foot the bill?

Kate:Don't read this!! ;-) but does it make a difference whether a movie's custodian is in the US or not? Only from the standpoint of compatible VHS formats. At some point, the original (if it was only shown on British TV) has to be converted from PAL to NTSC, and then the usual duplication process would go on.

(Laura) AMITC, can we get back to it? How about we view it over the week-end and start a discussion on Monday or Tuesday? Your choice: AMITC or SC. Not both.

Oh, Karen!!!! Hee hee!!!! I can try and do both;p

(Terry)Maybe you could give us seminars? Terry, I said I meant no offence, just that it's more to my taste the way we do things over here. I read some posts on the topics on Autumn (all, I think) and Claudia Shiffer (some)to get some impression, and came back because I'm more interested in this group... also in CF, naturally, but he's not the only actor I admire, and I've quit other discussion groups in the Net because they were not my style. So what I really mean is I'm very glad to have found this group of people I have fun with. OK? :-)

Cheryl, I think most people do visit all the CF topics in activity, so maybe you don't have to bother and post in 2 different topics. Not that it isn't interesting to read you in any of them!

I meant that in a very friendly, joking way... I really admire how drool is conducted!

Kate:Don't read this!! ;-) It matters not whether I read it, it's whether some law enforcement agency reads it. And it's not me that will get into trouble!! ;-)

Re: Tape conversion from PAL to US format: (Kate) And it's not me that will get into trouble!! ;-) I'll share a cell with Karen....and we'll watch all the CF films on NTSC :-)

And it's not me that will get into trouble!! ;-) Who knows? Aiding and abetting. Certainly knowledge of our nefarious activites!! Could lead to early deportation. Designation as persona non grata, making you ineligible to return. ;-) Can just see the headlines: "Firth Fans on Internet Busted. Ringleader from Oz Plead, "I tried to get them to stop, but they're addicts!" 'Nuf nonsense. We should confine our requests for *lending* our tapes to private e-mails. They should not be bandied about on a public board as Counsel suggests.

LOL! Luckily I'm leaving the country voluntarily before my visa expires ;-)

Absolutely! Who said anything about copying?! I buy (which is what I said.) And I'm sure you do too. I just meant the PAL/NTSC thing isn't a problem in this day and age and with round trip Federal Express... I'm sure by "duplication" Karen meant the normal process of watching something several times and returning it to it's lawful owner. Or custodian, as I put it. Maybe it's from being in the film, music, software business and having always been a voracious reader. I buy it if I can, to support th t product. Libraries and video stores don't work for me. I always end up with bigger fines that if I'd bought the thing in the first place, and I do in fact study things on video, use my gazillion CDs for listening but also for scratch soundtracks (to give a composer an idea of what I'm looking for), and scribble on books unless they're out of my price range and thus from the library. And that's what my question really was, a formerly veiled request for further info. My CDs and tapes also make me very popular--I'm a little lending library all by myself. This actually is why I bought what I could. I would end up paying more in the long run, and I hate bad prints. I did buy the ones for video stores (priced $89.00 or so) used when that was the only format I could find. I'm not insane.

Of course, most of my collections were free because I was in the business.

Ya see...simple misunderstanding. ;-) However, I'm pleading *insanity* should the need arise.

Cheryl, and any other CF video seekers, I highly recommend The Video Shop (www.videoshop.co.uk) in England for those Lost-in-America Brit films like Fever Pitch or Another Country. They're not only prompt, they're reasonably priced even with shipping and it's not too difficult to find a way to convert from PAL. I had to laugh though when I read you hate bad prints. Don't we all but when you're crying out for a new Colin fix and there's nothing out there but 6th generation off the TV tapes, anything's gonna look good. Desperation is a curious thing. So what did you get? And are we discussing AMITC?

Permission to enter AMITC? Has anyone read the book?

(Heide) Permission to enter AMITC? By all means, sweetie...go to it :-)

Has anyone read the book? } Yes, I was just rereading it on the way to and from Cape Cod. The movie kept amazingly close to the novella. It helped that the book is only 100 pages.

I read it too. Found it helped to fill in the blanks in the film. Though the film was v. fathful to the book. I am getting it back this week from Library Loan.

Evelyn, you jumped a couple of years on us:)

The book is on my reading list. I'd like to hear how the book is different/similar to the film. Is there more about Vinnie? Moon is supposed to be homosexual but that's not clear from the film except from the one line the man says to Tom in a message he wants to be delivered to Moon but I have difficulty making it out. Something about "Bugger his bum". Is there more pertaining to Moon's homosexuality in the book? The apple symbolism is very strong in the film. Is it conveyed in even more depth in the book? How is Tom described in the book? Can you picture Colin from the description? With what emotion are the people on the train looking at Tom? Guilt? Pity? Distaste? It's not immediately obvious that he was in the war. A twitch and stammer does not automatically brand you as a veteran though there were so many "intact" wounded men from the war wandering around, he may not have been an uncommon sight even in Oxgodby. (Laura) I found the children to be wonderful characters who suprisingly help heal a very wounded Tom Birkin. I love the Ellerbeck children in the film and can see how they are comforting to Tom as they sit quietly in the pew with their gramophone watching him work on the mural. I felt badly for Cathy when Tom pretended he wasn't in his belfry at the end of the movie when she comes to call. I hope she couldn't smell his cigarette and know he was up there.

As soon as the book comes from Library Loan, I'll answer your questions, Heide. Quoting the "chapter and verse". I read it over a year ago. Tremendous. Actually, the film also served to make the book more enjoyable. BTW for those who wish to read the two books on which MLSF is loosely based on. Here are the ISBNs: Both By Denis Forman: Son of Adam: ISBN: 0233 98593 X To Reason Why ISBN 0233 987312

About the movie: For a long time, I thought the book that Birkin pressed the flower in was just any old book, but after about my 10th time watching the film (which gets better each time), I now think that it is the same book the Old Birkin is carrying at the very end of the story. The old man is carrying a book on architecture that he wrote, and when the flower is pressed, you can see a diagram of different columns. --In other words, he presses the flower in a book he has not written yet. I really like the circularity of that image.

The first time I saw this film, I didn't think I could bear watching it again but now that I own it, I watch it again and again. I thought it was painfully sad at first but now don't find it so. What saves me is seeing that as an old man, Tom is well (meaning healthy), perhaps not prosperous but he still finds meaning and takes pleasure in what he did. Beautifully filmed, beautifully, subtly acted. Rife with symbolism which I love to try to decipher. I hope some people have thoughts on the questions I'd like to bring up. Some I've decided on the answer, some I have not. Why does Tom resist Alice? I don't think it's because of Vinnie. Does he think she is that unapproachable for someone as damaged as he considers himself to be? Is it his sense of morality? We know she's Eve tempting him. Tempting him from where? He's not exactly in the garden of Eden. She's practically quivering, she wants him so much. What keeps him from kissing her in the belfry? One of my favorite scenes is when Alice comes to see the mural and she climgws up the scaffolding. He's so eager and happy she's there. My favorite look is when she starts to descend the ladder and for a moment she pauses and they're at eye level. He looks so anxious as if he doesn't want her to leave. Love the scene in the woods when he says, "Many men would say that you were beautiful, Mrs. Keach." If it was going to happen, I think it would have happened there. Is he humiliated that she saw him so vulnerable after the shot rang out? More and more scenes I love- in town when Alice sees Tom watching her through the window of the pub. She looks at him, quickly, guiltily looks at her husband, then looks back at Tom. They walk away and he gazes after her. (Ann) The old man is carrying a book on architecture that he wrote, and when the flower is pressed, you can see a diagram of different columns. Thanks, Ann, I had no clue. I knew it couldn't be a bible. What makes you say he wrote the book? I will re-watch, of course, but I never saw that.

(Gi)I guess I'm the only one who doesn't read all the boards. (I hadn�t seen the films but now I've seen most of them.) (Laura)�children to be wonderful characters who suprisingly help heal�Birkin. I ordered the book (I only knew the play.) Interesting about the children--in the film I was so annoyed with them�. (Heide) Moon is supposed to be homosexual�one line�difficulty making it out. �is there more�in the book? I wondered when 1)he offers to Birkin, "Just haven�t met the right girl yet," which is a pretty standard line, especially in the past. 2)He doesn�t seem interested in Alice or any other women. But really the only other clue to me, and the thing I liked most about Branagh�s understatement, was this: 3)Birkin meets the angry officer in town, and in the next scene, Moon offers Birkin milk (for his tea, I assume) by the tent. The way Branagh sits, legs tucked under and hands folded in his lap demurely, was new to us. They discuss Alice and Moon reverses himself, agreeing that maybe it's not so bad that Birkin hasn�t seen her very much. Moon says something about giving "it" up, the two of them, f r the easy life. Birkin toasts to the easy life. But Moon doesn�t toast back. It makes sense to give up sex to make things simpler, but apparently Moon can�t or won't, which is what happened to get him taken off the front. The next scene, I think, in the tavern, Moon says he went around the bend a little six months before the end, losing "chaps he cared for." Moon may try to veil his history while referring to general horrors of war, but given the earlier scenes in this sequence we hear them with a exual twist: he was willing to risk his reputation for sex/love; or he used sex/love to help him survive and got caught; or he realized that who you care for may be dead this afternoon. However it was, he can't toast to giving it up. So, visual cue: the way Moon's sitting; accompanying story development: Sequence (of scenes) about Moon's private life, which we've known nothing of till now. �didn't think I could bear watching it again�painfully sad at�as an old man,�he still finds meaning and takes pleasure in what he did. This, like most of CF�s movies, make me smoke. All that longing! When Alice said to him he�d found what he was looking for, I thought, what a wishful/mean thing to say. But with Old Birkin�s happiness at returning to the church and remembering, I suppose it was true. It might not have been what I wanted him to have, but it was what he�d come for. Why does Tom resist Alice? � kissing her in the belfry? Much to my dismay, she can�t do anything; she�s the vicar�s wife. He�s been as open with her as he can, and she hasn�t stepped the least out of bounds, so can he really do anything more than he did? What can he offer her? She has a husband and home and life, and he has a wife, war wounds, and not much else. He�s (masterfully)inarticulate; she nods in agreement/understanding; but she proves to be not the kind of woman who�s going to step out of her big house (however empty it is.) Now she probably nev r will. But that doesn't make ME feel any better :) You just want her to say something, anything. But there I am, suffering right along with him.

(Heide) AZ, AMITC, FF, CoF(had it), Advocate, V, ATA, FP, Playmaker, Hostages...everything except P&P2, WoF, AC, MOTM, Tumbledown, I think. I rented P&P2 for the moment.

Also TEP (bought).

Hello everyone. I'm new to the boards. I've been a CF fan for a while and have seen most of his work that is available on video. Love your discussions and hope I will be able to add something of interest along the way. You guys seem to have alot of fun here and I thought it was time I jumped in. AMITC is one of my favorite CF films. I agree with hiede about the wonderful symbolism. Restoration of the painting as well as his life. Scene of hell and his view of war. When he first sees Alice, next scene he is uncovering an angel. When I read hiede's question about why he doesn't make his move on Alice in the belfry, I watched it again. In the scene before he confronts the vicar and I think he gains sympathy for him. He also knows what it's like to have a wife be unfaithful and does'nt want to inflict that pain on another. The healing experience has givin him back his own moral agency and the desire NOT to hurt or destroy others. I'd love to hear more of everyone's opinions.

Hello there, Sofie! I'll be the first to welcome you to the board! I think that your interpretation of why Tom holds back from Alice, despite the obvious pain to both of them, is very perceptive. There's a lot I would like to say about AMITC (when time permits) - it is undoubtably one of my favourite CF films and one which I can watch and re-watch. The ending I find almost unbearably moving. It is the music, the juxtaposition of the young Birkin and his older ravaged self, the poignancy of the old man reliving his memories, and the heartrending fact that he has obviously never again found love. He carries the book with the pressed flower, which Alice gave to him on the day in the woods when he nearly declared his love for her. TEP didn't move me one jot (except poor sweet Geoffrey!)...this I find difficult to watch.

Sophie He also knows what it's like to have a wife be unfaithful and does'nt want to inflict that pain on another. The healing experience has givin him back his own moral agency and the desire NOT to hurt or destroy others. Hi Sophie,Welcome.... you have given us a v. poignant reason for his repression in the belfry.!! Does anyone else see Alice as a temptress and not so angelic? Fondling those apples...biting one...lots of smoldering looks...almost assaulting him. Great cast!

Welcome, Sofie! Glad you decided to unlurk :-.) Is it me or are the tags flipping out again? One minute it's okay and the next, everything is italicized. *sigh* Well, just in case, I'm going to close that tag

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Two very good points to ponder as to why Tom doesn't take Alice in the belfry: (Cheryl) What can he offer her? She has a husband and home and life, and he has a wife, war wounds, and not much else. (Sofie) He also knows what it's like to have a wife be unfaithful and does'nt want to inflict that pain on another. Though Tom gained strength during his month in the country (was it only a month?), he seems to feel inadequate in Alice's presence. Doesn't his stutter return when she is near him? And he is a kind and thoughtful man who feels Vinnie's desertion strongly. (Evelyn) Does anyone else see Alice as a temptress and not so angelic? Good point, Evelyn. Despite the lighting, Alice is no angel. Especially felt this when Tom comes to the house to collect his payment. First she shows Tom all the empty rooms of the house. Her voice is trembling with repressed emotion (anger?). "Can be quite oppressive. Gives me nightmares sometimes." IMO, the rooms are a symbol of the emptiness of her marriage and she seems quite eager to show Tom this. Then when they arrive in the room where her husband is, she seems to be goading Keach. <i "The rooms, we don't know how to fill them, do we?". Keach seems almost cowed by his wife. What is going on here? The undercurrents are so strong. And then we have the apple scenes. The way she sniffs it and rubs it with her hands, smells her hands. Yeah, she learned it from her father but it's very suggestive and is making the apple very tempting to poor Tom. More, please.

(heide)the rooms are a symbol of the emptiness of her marriage. She seems to be goading Keach. I also saw her obvious intentions toward Tom in this scene. Her offer of showing him the way through the wood in front of her husband? PLEASE!! And she didn't mention that she had seen the painting because she probably didn't go there to see it as much as to see him. Or she might have been too flustered after the meeting to want to bring it up. After making Tom aware of the emptiness of her married life she gives him a rose. She is all silky and sweet, and he seems to be hanging on her every word whereas with others he is guarded.

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It worked for me, so maybe you'll want to try it: next time those italics invade the board, start your response by closing the italics tag. Just that. Now don't ask me why! :-)But I tried it before and it worked, and again in the previous (test) post and it seems to work, so...

(Heide) . Keach seems almost cowed by his wife. What is going on here? The undercurrents are so strong. I think the Reverend Keach is impotent. That would explain the emptiness of the marriage and her "hots" for Tom. (Don't have my book yet. But Laura owns it.) But what is the symbollism of that lone piece of furniture....that in-laws bought at an auction?? Does that represent Rev. Keach...all alone playing his violin in that empty room?

Clever little geek, Gi...

I thought the other one was the clever little geek; must have been wrong;-) I do own the book; I read it about two years ago. Moon is more of a homosexual in the book than they portray him in the movie. Tho' the guy who sees Birkin in the cafe in town mentions that Moon "Buggered the batboy" and the award he received wasn't a well-respected decision, in his opinion.

Hi, Sofie! So glad to have you! (heide)...seems to be goading Keach. "The rooms, we don't know how to fill them, do we?". Keach seems almost cowed by his wife. (evelyn)But what is the symbolism of that lone piece of furniture... auction?? Does that represent Rev. Keach...violin in that empty room? Keach doesn't invite Birkin to stay in his house the very beginning, never considering that an option. Birkin remarks during Keach's sermon, what about me (having no bed)? Alice started her relationship with him by saying it didn't seem right for him to be sleeping in the belfry when they were in their beds. Moon asks what Keach has done for Birkin, which is nothing. Alice makes an opening you could drive a truck through for Keach to invite him stay, and Keach doesn�t. Throughout, Keach's lack of char ty. And lack of relationship, connection�he wants only to listen to himself; he doesn't even imagine visitors will come anymore. Alice wants Birkin and Keach to know that it's ok with her for Birkin to move in, which everyone knows would be a disaster. Alice points out the mystery thing, in the course of talking about emptiness and filling. That piece seems to symbolize her desperation with Keach (piece of something else, don�t know what it is, no one wanted it, doesn't do anything, but at least it was something). And maybe Birkin, who might be something for her to fill her emptiness with. (sofie) �she didn't mention that she had seen the painting because she probably didn't go there to see it as much as to see him... And maybe to keep it between themselves, to pointedly exclude Keach. One of my favorite themes is when Birkin talks about being a restorer�"too much and some chap disappears, not enough and someone doesn�t make it back from 500 years ago." By the time he leaves he�s uncovered those who around him are, by not forcing but also by not resisting. Had he pushed, Alice might have changed, and that�s not what he does. He serves the Great Painter, cleaning so you can see what�s there, but doesn�t consider himself an artist to create or effect some change. He�s horrified by the idea of touching up something he finds. Also, Alice is not the only one to underscore the kind of man Keach is�he does himself. In the last monologue when he talks about people not being religious and not being moved by the practices, it�s so painful to see him looking for his own spiritual satisfaction through other people�s behavior. What a walled-off man.

(Evelyn)I think the Reverend Keach is impotent. Cha-cha-cha! Interesting point. We know he is impotent as a minister. I don't have his dialogue handy but he complains bitterly to Tom about his congregation, they're not moved by him, he's only wanted at funerals, etc. A signal about his marriage too? (Sofie) And she didn't mention that she had seen the painting because she probably didn't go there to see it as much as to see him. Love the guilty looks on both Tom and Alice's face when Keach expresses surprise that she has already seen the painting. They hadn't even done anything other than "lusting in their hearts". (Cheryl) By the time he leaves he�s uncovered those who around him are, by not forcing but also by not resisting. Had he pushed, Alice might have changed, and that�s not what he does. He wouldn't even have needed to push much. She would have come with a whistle. But yes, she would have changed and as you said earlier, she is a wife, has a home. What kind of woman would she have become if she had given up that comfortable life? But we want her to. I'm always questioning even my own convictions about the story and that's why I love to read others' views even if I don't always agree with them. At their best, these film discussions give me new insight into the stories and I love to see the collaboration. But to get to the less lofty images, how about Tommy boy working in the grave? Oomph. He's sweaty, he's dirty, those braces are off, that shirt is hanging out. Love to see him get physical. Don't mind looking at the shot of him from above when the bells go off on his first Sunday in the belfry. He's lying there (love that undershirt), looking so long, lean and lanky.

I've been lurking, but have had no time to post lately. Sorry to be responding to something a bit dated... (Bethan) I don't know if we've decided what the next film discussion will be, but would anyone be interested at some stage, not necessarily now, in discussing the Rupert Brooke radio play "The One Before the Last" I just listened to this for the first time last week. It was excellent. (Can't argue with something that has the DB in almost every scene.) I have a hard time getting into audio plays sometimes, but this was quite interesting and CF's acting very good indeed. Sorry to divert from AMITC. It's one of my favorites, but I haven't seen it for a long time. I'll try and re-watch this week so as to have something to add to the discussion. Welcome, Sofie! I appreciate your insightful comments.

I received AMITC today and read it. So in the next few days I'll answer questions from the book. Heide, Sophie, Cheryl, Ann, Bethan , you were all correct in your assumptions. The jacket of the book has a reviewer : " Mr. Carr's small tale of lost love is also a hymn about art and the compensation joy of the artist, both in giving and receiving." JL carr has written seven children's books ..short stories, historical and architectural subject books. VinnieIs there more abut Vinnie in the book? Not much. "I told him (M) about Vinny and that she'd gone off with another chap. I didn't tell him that she'd almost certainly bedded down with other men whilst I was overseas . Nor that she left me once before" Earlier, he remarks that "Viunny had quality....look where it got me"'. P.110 When he gets her letter at the end. "Heaven knows how she had learnt where I was, but it was from V.: she wanted me home again. There were other things too but that is what it amounted to...she wanted me back. I had no illusions. She would go off again, would come back again. And I should be there". How is Tom described in the book Written by Tom as a flashback, so no physical description . But he says he is 26, Keach 30, Alice 19 or 20. Moon is 26. Sgt Milburn:" Last time I saw you they were carting you off...shell shocked, wasn't it......not many of you chaps came through. Tomorrow:Discussion of hell with Alice. Moon's homosexuality. With Alice in the belfry

(lafn)last time I saw you they were carting you off...shell shocked. I was reading a book for school called Trauma and Recovery. It is written primarily for people who are in the mental health field. It has some interesting information about the history of emotional trauma and how society viewed it and treated it during WWI. There was a terrible stigma attached to any emotinal symptoms that were debilitating to the soldier. Treatment was cruel and humiliating. The scene where Moon says how hard it is for the "in tact ones" like himself and Tom. They are far from in tact an will likely suffer some symptoms for the rest of their lives. I really liked the hymn that was playing when he goes in to find a table from where he can watch her through the window. I recognized it and racked my brain till I found out what it was. "To a Wild Rose" by, I think McDowell?(American). It doesn't necessarily mean anything, except to me. I love when a movie makes me this curious about details. Love the scene when he's lying in the sun in the graveyard. She tells him she's been there ten minutes. Doing what exactly? I know what I would be doing. Great discussion. Love everyones insights.

(sofie)I was reading a book for school called Trauma and Recovery...It has some interesting information about the history of emotional trauma and how society viewed it and treated it during WWI. Could you elaborate?

I've been following the discussion, but only started to rewatch AMITC last night. It's been so interesting reading everyone's views. Speaking of music, when Birkin first lays his hands on the wall, a choir of heavenly voices begins to sing. He has not started his restoration work but is instead trying to feel/understand what lies behind the plaster and paint. I was immediately struck by that use of music and wondered if anyone else did. Does it mean he has reached his day of Judgment? (Sofie) I love when a movie makes me this curious about details. Join the club. Love the scene when he's lying in the sun in the graveyard. She tells him she's been there ten minutes. Doing what exactly? That scene is so lovely and so full of symbolism. CF stretched out on a grave. He looks so happy and peaceful among the dead. Then the angel shows up. He looks up at her and the sun is behind her creating an aura surrounding the halo-shaped hat on her head. But she's hardly an angel. Yes, what has she been doing? ;-) One criticism: The scene where Tom is watching the church service from the belfry and sarcastically comments on the Reverent Keach's (and by implication at this point, the entire congregation's) lack of Christian charity I found a little heavy handed. I think you get the idea that the Reverend's words are hollow from their initial meeting and don't need Tom to spell it out. Evelyn: Have you figured out what is in Moon's suitcase yet?

(patas)Could you elaborate? The horrors of trench warfare caused men to break down in shocking numbers.Number of psyciatric casualties so great that hospitals had difficulty housing them. Some say 40% of British casualties were due to mental breakdowns. Military authorities supressed reports because of demoralizing effect on public. British psycologist Charles Myers attributed first cases to physical cause,effects of exploding shells, resulting in nervouse disorder "shell shock". Syndrome could be seen in soldiers not exposed to any physical trauma. Gradually military psyciatrists forced to acknowledge trauma due to emotional stress of prolonged exposure to violent death. When existence of combat neurosis could no longer be denied, authorities centered on the moral character of the patient.Traditional views held that soldiers should not succumb to terror. The soldier who developed neurotic symptoms was at best seen as inferior human being, at worst a malingerer and coward.Medical writers of this period described these individuals as "moral invalids" and did not deserve to be patients at all.Some military authorities maintained that these men should be court-martialed or di honorably discharged. Lewis Yealland (British psychiatrist of the traditional view)advocated treatment strategy based on shaming, threats, and punishment. Hysterical symptoms such as mutism, sensory loss, or motor paralisis were treated with electric shocks. Yealland reports treating a mute patient by applying electric shocks to his throat. Treatment went on for hours until patient finally spoke.While shocks were applied Yealland exhorted the patient to "remember, you must behave as a hero and have better control over yourself " Within a few years after end of war, numerous men with long-lasting psychiatric disabilities became an embarrasment to civilian society eager to forget. Judith Herman,M.D. goes into great detail primarily to help clinitians recognize symptoms of trauma so that more acurate diagnosis can be made which will lead to more appropriate treatment. I hope this info is helpful. I found it helped me understand Birkin and Moon. They were damaged by war but their wounds were cause for shame not heroism.

(Sophie) I love when a movie makes me this curious about details. Great to have you ,Sophie. What a gem you are to come up with all this trauma info. Makes us understand ( and love) Tom more. OK... The Book "....good old Bannister-Fletcher, our bible in Miss Witherpen's English Architectural Class". " that rose, Sara Van Fleet,... I still have it. Pressed in my book. My Bannister-Fletcher, as a matter of fact. Someday after a sale, a stranger will find it there and wonder why. The Walk in the Woods...Paradise..the rabbit..the shot..not in the book. The lsst scene as an old man...not in the book. The whole book is a flashback (Pl . tell me if you want me to quote from the book in italics) Sometimes they hurt my eyes. "Mrs. Ellerbeck says you are attractive." "Attractive, she said, as though this had never occurred to her or no one had told her before. You are attractive," I said "Attractive?", she repeated. All right, Alice Keach, I thought , you are going to be pushed You can lie awake in the dark too. "Many men would say you are attractive. They'd say you were beautiful" (I stopped shor of I) "Oh", she said... And you? "Me, Well, I'm not an artist, but they gave me a diploma at LCA so I could recognize Beauty. So, professionally, I must tell you. "Yes, your are beautiful. Very And could she have made herself go that bit further and given me the nod, I would have recited a catalog of her charms, because my blood was up." But, then Mossop stepped in... This scene reminds me of the visit to Lizzy at Rosings....when he almost....commits himself!! He does repression so well. (Bethan) the day he almost declared his love By the window.. "She turned so her breasts were pressing against me. And although we both looked across the meadow, she didn't draw away as quite easily she could have done. I should have lifted an arm and taken her shoulder, turned her face and kissed her. Then everything would have been different. My life, hers. We would have had to speak and say aloud what both of us knew, and then maybe, turned ro the window and laid down together on my makeshift bed. Afterwards, we would hve gone away. Maybe on the next train. My he rt was racing. I was breathless. She leaned on me, waiting. And I did nothing, and said nothing. She drew back and said shakily. "thank you for showing me (the mural). Arthur will be wondering about me. No, please don't come down." Karen: Nothing in the book about Moon's suitcase. But after Sophie's research, it must have been medication ...vials?

Sorry, didn't mean to put everything in italics. Hope this isn't.

(lafn)must have been medication...vials No medication available in those days for psyc. problems. People self-medicated with alcohol or whatever. I noticed Moon covering his medal when Tom looks at the open case. He (Moon) is obviously ashamed of the medal given the stigma attached to his emotional breakdown. If he had lost a limb that was a visible disability he would feel more deserving of the medal, but given the bias against any emotional problems during that period he is left in isolation and shame. It is interesting how little things have changed. Society seems more accepting of mental illness but there is still a great deal of blaming the victims of traumatic experiences.

Out, you blasted italics!! until you are needed!! And could she have made herself go that bit further and given me the nod, I would have recited a catalog of her charms, because my blood was up." *** "She turned so her breasts were pressing against me. And although we both looked across the meadow, she didn't draw away as quite easily she could have done. I should have lifted an arm and taken her shoulder, turned her face and kissed her. Then everything would have been different. My life, hers. We would have had to speak and say aloud what both of us knew, and then maybe, turned ro the window and laid down together on my makeshift bed. THIS is is classified as a children's book? Wow, think I'll head off to the library to get this one. There is a strange little war going on in his mind. The trained artist who can recognize beauty and just want to look at it and the man, who wants to possess it. Medals He might be embarrassed about the medals for another reason, not just the stigma of an emotional breakdown. There was the incident that Tom hears about in that little village. It sounded as though Moon were being accused of some act of cowardice in addition to his preference for men. Something happened that put his men in jeopardy and most were killed. Must take a closer look to see if they look like medals. Looked like little vials and a bunch of leather straps like a harness to mean???? :-)

Out, you blasted italics!! until you are needed!! And could she have made herself go that bit further and given me the nod, I would have recited a catalog of her charms, because my blood was up." *** "She turned so her breasts were pressing against me. And although we both looked across the meadow, she didn't draw away as quite easily she could have done. I should have lifted an arm and taken her shoulder, turned her face and kissed her. Then everything would have been different. My life, hers. We would have had to speak and say aloud what both of us knew, and then maybe, turned ro the window and laid down together on my makeshift bed. THIS is is classified as a children's book? Wow, think I'll head off to the library to get this one. There is a strange little war going on in his mind. The trained artist who can recognize beauty and just want to look at it and the man, who wants to possess it. Medals He might be embarrassed about the medals for another reason, not just the stigma of an emotional breakdown. There was the incident that Tom hears about in that little village. It sounded as though Moon were being accused of some act of cowardice in addition to his preference for men. Something happened that put his men in jeopardy and most were killed. Must take a closer look to see if they look like medals. Looked like little vials and a bunch of leather straps like a harness to me???? :-)

(Sophie) I noticed Moon covering his medal when Tom looks at the open case. Keep this girl around. You're right on the money, Sophie!! (I'll slash my wrists if this comes out in italics) At Ripon when Sgt. Milburn comes over..... "Milburn", he said.".Sgt. Milburn"' ... I knew him then...not a bad chap. I mentioned Moon... "...the M.P.s found him in bed with his batman. They really shat on him at the Court-Martial. Crucified him. "Corruption of young men". "Dishonour of the king's commission....."That sort of balls "His M.C. (Military Cross) made made it worse." "Can't understand that". "He never mentioned an M.C." I said." Immediate award. Brought in one of his chaps from the wire. Went back when he heard another screaming. Poor bugger! I suppose he was born that way" ....Knowing Moon was a homosexual didn't upset me. Though , of course, it wasn't something I could forget. It was the idea of an independent man, a proud spirit being shut up like an animal in a military prison...that's what appalled me. Then later at the pub....in the film...Moon says the last six months were the worst when he didn't see any corpses. Tom: "You got the M.C., didn't you. I saw it in the tent"!! So Moon was court-martialed and spent the last six months of the war in the "glass house" as Milburn says.Like Sophie says he is ashamed of the medal probably because of the court-martial. (I think in the US anyone court-martialed is stripped of his medals) Karen: This is not a children's book. I said LL Carr had written 6 children's books. This is not in that category. Some of the parens are mine(: M.C.Mil Cross) In the film Tom doesn't say MC I also rescind my perception that Rev. Keach is impotent. Can't find any reference to assume that. CF portrays Tom perfectly. Natasha Richardson plays her a bit more of a temptress.(Or perhaps that is how Pat O'Connor (Cof F), the director saw her). The apples symbollism in the book are not as graphic as in the film.No fondling etc. Though I am sure "the Eve factor" is what they are supposed to represent. I really prefer the film.(Of course, CF is in it!) And I admire the director for getting a 2 hour film out of a 110 page book!!

Count Almasy is having a Big Day!

Trying to close the italics tag

Wow. It worked. :-)

Hope you haven't slashed your wrists Evelyn! Some very interesting insights here. I wish I'd read the book. BTW is it something of a collector's item? The only copy I could find listed for sale was a secondhand copy for $100! If you've got a copy, hang on to it.....it may make you rich! I love watching this film, and think that virtually all the scenes have some intrinsic value. I'm always moved by the scene in the woods when Birkin reacts to the gun shot, also by his reaction after seeing the dying child, when he himself also seems terribly ill. And I think that CF acts very well with the children...they treat him as one of themselves. and he treats them as equals. What's with these italics?

(Karen) when Birkin first lays his hands on the wall, a choir of heavenly voices begins to sing. ... is instead trying to feel/understand what lies behind the plaster and paint. I was immediately struck by that use of music LOL! I was immediately struck by his beautiful hands in that shot. You know, those long fingers. Thank you so much Evelyn and Sofie - great information. (Sofie) I found it helped me understand Birkin and Moon. They were damaged by war but their wounds were cause for shame not heroism. A stigma still existent today. Evelyn, perhaps you can tell us from the book whether Tom was able to finish out the war. We know Moon spent the last 6 ontohs in "the glass house". (Evelyn-from the book) And could she have made herself go that bit further and given me thenod, I would have recited a catalog of her charms, because my blood was up." Aha! This is the scene (in the woods) where I thought he would kiss her but for the shot. Sounds likely now. I should have lifted an arm and taken her shoulder, turned her face and kissed her. Then everything would have been different. My life, hers. Sound familiar, Cheryl? You asked what could he offer her. Sounds like he is very aware of that. (Evelyn) I also rescind my perception that Rev. Keach is impotent. Oh but it was a good perception. Surely his sexuality is not mentioned at all in the book. Or do we get some steamy love scenes between the Reverend and his Mrs.? Only 110 pages!!! What a disappointment.

(heide)I was immediately struck by his beautiful hands in that shot. You know, those long fingers. Long, are they? ;-p

The italics thing: As I said before, just closing the italics tag seems to make them disapear. At least for whoever's closed the tag. What I still don't understand is, why do they appear in the first place.

Hmmm..... I own the book and my friend bought it at Argosy on Lexington in NY for $1.00:) She inscribed it to me, does that mean it's not worth anything?

I tried closing the tag when I started the last time...and it did not work. Pl. give us a more detail instruction, Gi. "Summertime! And summertime in my early twenties! And in love! No, better than that---secretly in love, coddling it up in myself. It's an odd feeling coming rarely more than once in most of our lifetimes. In books, as often as not, they represent it as a sort of anguish but wasn't so for me. Later perhaps, but not then. I was married. Vinny had gone off with him but neither of us had done much about it. She'd shrewdly left the door open so that, if need be, she could slip back--before she went again. And Alice Keach. I was sure that she was a deeply religious woman: marriage for her really did mean "Let no man put asunder". Never forget this was 1920, another world. So there it was and there it would stay until the day I would go. Then for a year or two , perhaps we'd exchange polite christmas cards and after that we'd draw farther away. But now she was here and, unknowing, mine. Well, that's how I liked to think of it." Interesting line:End of first paragraph: "Later perhaps but not then." Does he repent not having made the overture to Alice?What does everyone think? Was it his innate morality that made him hold back? ( He was not a religious man) No sex bet. the Reverend and Alice. I got this book from a small country library nearby....I hope I can talk them into selling it to me. No one has checked it out since I did two years ago! I assume he was in the war until he was carted away shell shocked. Gotta go check out that "hand" scene you all mentioned. (Notice I did not use italics)

test

(bethan) After _MUCH_ ado, I found a copy at Borders(a book/music store)online. Less than $20. It hasn't arrived yet. (sofie) I also like that book. The main thing I�ve appreciated as I�ve gotten older was how shocked the participants were at "the Great War." As is often said, no one was prepared for the extent of the violence. The armament and the planes delivered more destruction than ever before, but the soldiers were still as close to the damage as when wars were fought on horses. In WWII we (humans) had the experience of the first modern war (WWI) to learn from somewhat, but for soldiers in WWI there was no prepa ation, nothing to compare it to. We could now deliver many shells more quickly, so there was geometrically more horror to process (modern world for you.) (evelyn) From the quotes so far, I don�t think I�m going to like the book�s Birkin as much either :-)

Hurray, no italics! I closed them 3 times right off the bat. But maybe all this thinking we have some effect on these critters is like throwing virgins into a volcano to satisfy the rain gods.

The technology of destruction has always outpaced man's ability to deal with it on the battlefield and afterward. The closest thing to WWI in terms of impact would be our Civil War for the numbers of dead, wounded and psychologically scarred veterans. The "shock" of participants at the Great War also stemmed from Britain's threatened position as a world power, France's rapid demise, etc. The ability of upstart Germany to overrun Europe was the kicker and was horribly dealt with in the Treaty of Versailles. (but of course that's with 20-20 hindsight)

Karen: I think that his outburst at Rev. Keach who is delivering a sermon on The Beautitudes...."what about me..did you feed me..give me a bed". And later when after going to visit Emily..he shouts: "There is not God"., all occur near the beginning of the film/book...when he is still agitated , stammering..twitching , ..still feeling the negative effects of his head trauma.. Later, he seems calmer...more rational. Don't you love the ending? He takes the apple she gave him, looks at it tenderly seems to grasp it firmer ,and then bites into it lustily. After doing Tom Birkin, I bet he could do Joe Prince in an afternoon.! This film is held in v. high esteem...even among Kenneth Branagh fans. I'll give you another scene that was not in the film...after the scene in the belfry.

The next evening I pulled myself together and thought; Well usually there's a second chance for most of us; perhaps she is waiting there as I am waiting here . (He goes to the house...stood breathless...as if he had been running , but found the house empty). "They're not here, I thought, they've gone." And I turned away. (Then he remembers the bell by the door) And I pulled at it, so that the bell's sounds came hurrying along corridors, round corners, down staircases, echoing and re-echoing, spreading through the dark emppty house like ripples of her laughter. But know I knew that it was laughter calling to me from the past...clearly, playfully, and yet poignantly . it was the worst moment of my life. And I dragged at the wire again and again, savagely, dispairingly. For how long I cannot, say, but when , at last, I turned away and went, I knew I should never see her again.

I think that his outburst..."what about me..did you feed me..give me a bed". And later...he shouts: "There is not God"...he is still feeling the negative effects of his head trauma.. Later, he seems calmer...more rational. Oh no, not with a ten-foot pole! ;-) the missing belfy scene That was so poignant. He has kept himself in check throughout and now is sitting there ringing a bell, hoping that she will return to him. Ringing the bell is almost like shouting it from the rooftops. He's declaring his love or whatever for her. But there's no one to hear it. Incredibly sad.

"All this happened so long ago. And I never returned, never wrote, never met anyone who might have given me news of Oxgodby. So, in memory, it stays as I left it, a sealed room furnished by the past, airless, still, ink long dry on a put-down pen. But this was something I knew nothing of as I lifted the loop and set off across the meadow. Stocken, Preseigne September, 1978 This is the end of the book. But this locale doesn't sound like England. Does anyone know where it is?

(lafn)But this is something I knew nothing of as I lifted the loop and set off across the meadow. Is he looking back with regret? or is he just remembering a notable time in his life?

(Sofie) But this is something I knew nothing of as I lifted the loop and set off across the meadow. Is he looking back with regret? or is he just remembering a notable time in his life? The latter.The whole book is a flashback. So he is remembering when he left with all his various pieces of luggage and walked away.

Testing ..I put an end tag.Let's see if this works

I read the Cinematic Discourse on FOF on AMITC and it is v. scholarly. However, there seems to be a difference of opinion on whether Piers is the mural's artist. After Tom and Moon dig in the pit---find the stone coffin and shroud, and peak in... Moon says: ..."let's put the chain back and leave him. But first we'll climb your ladder and have a look at his face before it fell off." Tom say:"Do you know , until that moment, it hadn't occurred to me that this bundle of bones was my falling man." Doesn't Tom say earlier that the artist had fallen...and someone else had painted his face in? This author is pretty tricky...makes you work for the plot.

Tom says most likely that the apprentice finished the mural.

Do these do you, Evelyn :-)

Yes,....thanks Nan. The top one is in the belfry with the shirtand suspenders (sorry, braces) that Heide likes. The bottom one is at the beginning coming in from the rain after checking the gutters...can't you hear that pitiful stammer. :-)

correction: stammer :-(

(Evelyn) The top one is in the belfry with the shirtand suspenders (sorry, braces) that Heide likes. Well, Heide's got damned good taste! :-) (Evelyn) can't you hear that pitiful stammer I know, poor baby :-( Dontcha just wanna kiss it and make it all better? ;-p

I really enjoyed everyone's take on AMITC. Loved the scenes from the book which helped me to understand the characters further. CF does seem to give Tom this quality that makes you want to "make it all better." When he enters the belfry for the first time I just want to help him take off those damp clothes make him a cup of hot tea and tuck him in. Of course I'm speaking of my desire to nurture his poor wounded soul. I would go to any lengths to divert him from his painful memories of the war. Question to those who read the book. What was the purpose of Moon being a homosexual? Nan, not to be a bother but, while you're snapping, would love one of him shaving. Re: different topic...I came across a web sight that listed FP with a fall 98 release date for N.Y. and L.A. I assume that it is a theatrical release, not video.

(nan11) Dontcha just wanna kiss it and make it all better? (sofie)...you want to "make it all better."...help him take off those damp clothes...tuck him in...my desire......any lengths to...him And the weird thing is, you think (I think) (one thinks) you really can! With some screen stammerers (like Brad Dourif in "Cuckoo's Nest"), you get the idea that it's hard wired, that it's been with them forever, it's a part of them. But with CF's you think you can soothe it, the tension, the conflict--right on the money. And like Heide, I didn�t really get the first time through that it was from the war. Maybe the book made this clearer.

(Sofie) Re: different topic...FP with a fall 98 release date for N.Y. and L.A. I assume that it is a theatrical release, not video. Yes, theatrical release. It opened in Canada during World Cup. On his book tour, Nick Hornby mentioned it would be released later in the year in the US in a limited number of cities. I hope it's more than NYC and LA. Then, release on video here is next logical step????? :-D Have picked up AMITC from the library (just yesterday) and noticed publisher is local. Will give them a call tomorrow. (Telephone number/address printed on book are no longer good. They've moved.)

(Sofie) Question to those who read the book. What was the purpose of Moon being a homosexual? I didn't find anything explicit in the book. (But what is..in this book!) Moon's psychological injuries, IMO are worse than Tom's . Also he had shrapnel in his leg which is why one saw him late at night trying to straighten it out). Does anyone have an insight on Moon's homosexuality and it's place in the story. Tom's physical twitches and stammer subside..And while he leaves sadly..still one gets the feeling that he isn't the lonely pitiful person who arrived in the beginning of the summer. So, ...a Question to ponder.... What heals Tom.....restoring the mural? Alice?, the children? the pastoral countryside? ...friendship...love...art? Do you think that as he restored the mural it became a metaphor for his own healing...or is the mural a venue through which he healed . (Am I making sense?) Let's hear from everybody out there. PS. Natasha Richardson was featured this week in Parade and didn't even mention AMITC as one of her films. Boo, Hiss on her!

Moon's homosexuality?.... Perhaps his name gives us a clue. Moon--crescent--Muslim. I think the name is meant to draw a parallel between Moon and the Muslim Piers. Where Piers returned from the Crusades a converted Muslim, and became an outcast in his Oxgoodby--and permanently remained one, Moon is also a permanent outcast in his society because of his homosexuality. Neither could convert to a more socially acceptable way of life. Perhaps this is also why Moon remains more damaged by the war and doesn't find the cure that Birkin does. Birkin could 'convert' himself back, but Moon, like Piers, must accept the way he is.

PS. Natasha Richardson was featured this week in Parade and didn't even mention AMITC as one of her films. CF's co-stars often seem to find their way to mega-stardom......Catherine Zeta Jones, Kristin Scott Thomas, Minnie Driver, to name a few. (Evelyn, I'm sure JE will be up there soon!)

Ann, I find your connection of Moon....crescent....Muslim/Piers...both outcasts of society....very plausible. The puzzle coming together slowly. Catherine Zeta-Jones....when did she co-star with Colin? She is a stunner alright. I bet none of the" dolls" in TA make it. Sheeesh. I think JE is inching along. Like CF, I see lots of roles I would have liked to see her in. She admits at having been disappointed that she didn't get some roles.

AMITC Book Update: I called the publisher this morning and they said it had been out of print for quite a while. Usually, they keep some around, but there had been a number of requests recently. She went to check and there weren't any on the shelves. She said that periodically some are returned but not in good condition. I asked about reprinting the book and she said that it cannot be because of an agreement with the author. She took my name and number and will call me if any show up. She said the book apparently had *cult* following. Imagine that!! ;-D

Catherine Zeta-Jones....when did she co-star with Colin? In the BBC production "Out of the Blue" which I haven't seen. I think she's been based in LA for a few years. Like CF, I see lots of roles I would have liked to see her in. She admits at having been disappointed that she didn't get some roles. I think that after Lizzie and Darcy (and all the other good work they'd done before) neither has achieved the recognition they deserve...or the major breakthrough roles(in terms of worldwide movie success). But it will happen, I'm positive! Both seem quite happy to be Europe-based, rather than US, so maybe that determines the kind of work they're offered. AMITC .....hang on to your copies! Collector's items...I told you!

(Bethan) the kind of work they're offered. Somehow no one seems to consider the kind of work they choose to accept... that also makes a lot of difference. Michele Pffeifer may feel comfortable as Catwoman (?), Jack Nicholson as Joker, etc., but that's not the type of roles Colin would aspire to... Not yet, anyway.

Somehow no one seems to consider the kind of work they choose to accept Very true. I actually don't want to see CF in a huge blockbuster type of movie (I have a feeling that The Avengers may prove a mistaken choice for RF), but these are the movies which, unfortunately, get all the promotion. It's a bit of a Catch 22 situation really.

(Bethan) I actually don't want to see CF in a huge blockbuster type of movie Why not, Bethan? Quality and blockbuster are not always in opposition. I don't think he'd turn down a role in a film that had blockbuster written all over it. Doubt that would be part of the criteria he'd use in choosing a role but one can only presume.

Back to AMITC..... I did some research over the weekend... At the end Old Mr. Birkin ( I figured he must have been 85 yrs old when he returns in the film) signs off Stocken, Prestigne September, 1978 The place didn't sound like England...but I found it in E. Wales. nr. the border....North of Hereford,. Ripon ( where they went to purchase the organ...Alice apples...Sgt Milburn tells about Moon) is in the middle of the moors NW of York. Then I found on the map a town, at the tip of England almost touching N. Wales , called Birkenhead coincidental....I wonder?

Heide, I agree with you. The shame about blockbusters are that it is all about special effects nowadays - often the script is $hit, the actors don't act (because they don't need to with all that extra help), and everyone in it is a millionaire (which I resent!). I like actors who go for the scripts they like, not the scripts that are going to bring them thirty million instead of three million. It shows that they still care more for their art than for money.

Re: Blockbusters. Just try and have an interesting discussion about the symbolism in Titanic. Although to be honest, I rarely think of metaphores when I am focusing on C.F.

Can't say I do either. But a good script and good acting is important to me - otherwise I can't be persuaded to sit still for two hours.

But a good script and good acting is important to me - otherwise I can't be persuaded to sit still for two hours. Or pay $$$ for it. But not all blockbusters are created equal....some have good storylines and acting. IMO Titanic was terrific. And so is the current; Saving Private Ryan. the scripts that are going to bring them thirty million instead of three million. I'd go for the thirty:-)

Nan...Sofie requested a pic of Tom Birken shaving outside in AMITC. Can we impose on you one more time? Thanks

I wouldn't - I'd be $hit scared of that much money. But my sister told me Saving Private Ryan is an oscar winner in her book, so I'll go see it once it comes to Switzerland.

(Riette) I'd be $hit scared of that much money. I think you'd get confidence in yourself real fast!! BTW went to your Art Conference. Very cool. Colorful (no pun) too. Congrats...you and Terry have a great site goin'.

....so I'll go see it once it comes to Switzerland. Gruezi wohl! Segged Sie, wie lebbed Sie, wie geihts dann Ihrem Maa..... :-). I just peeped in to Arts, and Nan, will you ever forgive me to complain about the Drool background being too strong? Riette, it's just a joke, I really like what I have seen, and will come back (as soon as I have dimmed down my colour settings - no, no, Riette, kidding again! The sunglasses will do :-D)

(Evelyn) However, there seems to be a difference of opinion on whether Piers is the mural's artist. Finished the book and my take on it is that Piers and the muralalist are not one and the same. Tom is marveling throughout on the level of detail the muralist has used, especially on the falling man with the crescent on his forehead. He considers this unknown artist to be decades ahead of Brugheuel because of the detail used. Tom does believe that real people were used to populate the mural. So it stands to reason that the artist chose to use Piers, a Muslin convert, who had recently been discovered a d excommunicated as the model for that character. Doesn't Tom say earlier that the artist had fallen...and someone else had painted his face in? Tom concludes that the artist fell from the scaffold but it was other areas of the mural that were done by his apprentices...not the falling man. What heals Tom.....restoring the mural? Alice?, the children? the pastoral countryside? ...friendship...love...art? Do you think that as he restored the mural it became a metaphor for his own healing...or is the mural a venue through which he healed. Have conclued that it was Oxgodby because it brought together everything that he needed to return to the living. In Oxgodby, he finds what may be the greatest medieval mural of them all and he rediscovers Art and his own abilities not as just someone who cleans up after artists. In Oxgodby, he meets Alice and he rediscovers Beauty and Love. In Oxgodby, he meets Moon, with whom he can face the horrors of the war with someone with shared memories. In Oxgodby, he meets the Ellerbecks, primarily Kathy, who befriend him and show him the other side of religion, not the establishment sort, that didn't comfort him in the foxholes when he called out to that God. Kathy Ellerbeck is a little more even. She's a little Tom. Perhaps, that's why he calls her his "kindred spirit." "We understood each other perfectly from the moment she flung open the door." Moon's homosexuality?.... (Ann) Moon is also a permanent outcast in hissociety because of his homosexuality. Neither could convert to a more socially acceptable way of life. I think the movie and the book deal with Moon's homosexuality differently. I need to go rewatch that part in the cafe in Ripon where Tom hears about Moon, but the impression I got was that Sergeant Milburn was totally disgusted with Moon. In the book, he is sympathetic to what happened to Moon. He laughts and expresses thoughts that perhaps the powers that be made an example of Moon. "They really crucified him. 'Corruption of young men'...Dishonour of the king's commission....' that sort of balls. His MC made it worse. Can't understand that." I think Moon's crime was that he was found out. Homosexuality was always around, but was not supposed to be in the open. Like AC or Wilde or a zillion other films.

( Karen) Tom concludes that the artist fell from the scaffold but it was other areas of the mural that were done by his apprentices...not the falling man. Thanks Karen for clearing up the mystery.Your insight makes more sense. Surely, a Muslim would not have painted a religious mural. And Oxgodby with all its "ingredients" is a logical healing agent for his condition. Anybody else have any different takes on this.?

(Evelyn) Nan...Sofie requested a pic of Tom Birken shaving outside in AMITC. Yes, I know, honey. I'm afraid I'm eyeball-deep at the moment. I'm on tape 5 of P&P2. Yes, you heard me right. I'm Snappin' everything worth Snappin'--yes, honey�Jennifer, too ;-) I'll certainly try to get to it...hate to disappoint a fellow drooler. (Evelyn) IMO Titanic was terrific. Overall, I liked it but by the beginning of the third hour all I could think of was "okay, sink already!" ;-p Let's face it--Titanic's financial success had more to do with Leo than the film itself. Every girl under the age of 18 saw it 4 or 5 times each. Having several obsessions myself, I certainly understand the impulse, but I don't share it. I thought the whole love story was the weak link...because Leo's just too young for me. (Evelyn) And so is the current; Saving Private Ryan. Oh, I won't see that in a theatre. I'm a horrible weeper and could never see that in public. I'm going to have to do the same thing I do with all Spielberg films...wait for the video, turn out the lights, get a big box of Kleenex and sob until I feel like my head's going to explode ;-O (Renate) Gruezi wohl! Segged Sie, wie lebbed Sie, wie geihts dann Ihrem Maa..... :-). Geez, woman! How many languages do you speak?! (Riette) I just peeped in to Arts, and Nan, will you ever forgive me to complain about the Drool background being too strong? I was waiting for an apology, missy ;-p (Renate) Riette, it's just a joke, I really like what I have seen, and will come back (as soon as I have dimmed down my colour settings - no, no, Riette, kidding again! The sunglasses will do :-D) Riette, you must not take Renate seriously. She is notoriously tongue-in-cheek (I love this about her, btw) ;-) Hint: You can tell she's in a playful mood by the number of emoticons she uses... Actually, I really like the way the Art Conference "feels" (if that makes sense). It's got a creative, festive, funky atmosphere...but I know what you mean about the text. I don't think it's the color as much as the stripes being horizontal--sometimes cuts through the center of the text. Hate to see it changed, though�I kinda like the flavor :-)

Evelyn, just wanted to say, great job bit of research locating those places on the map. Did you happen to find Oxgodby perchance? ;-D BTW, if you turn your monitor to the left about 10 degrees the italics go away.

(Nan)Oh, I won't see that in a theatre. I'm a horrible weeper and could never see that in public. I'm going to have to do the same thing I do with all Spielberg films...wait for the video, turn out the lights, get a big box of Kleenex and sob until I feel like my head's going to explode ;-O And you didn't cry in TEP??? I sob every time I see the movie. I cry very easily . . .just the mention this month of Diana gets me all teary eyed and I wasn't particularily a fan . . .but what a waste. I cry over Lassie and commercials, like AT&T, and Kodak moments . . .Can't take me anywhere!!

(Nan) I'm afraid I'm eyeball -deep at the moment. Yeah Nan. Just watch that nothing "pokes" it. I do not mind waiting. We must all focus our attention on what is truly important. Re: Titanic. I took my 11 year old son and his friend to see it. Since entering the 5th grade, girls have become his main topic of interest. He wanted to see what they were all fussing about because most of them had seen it several times. His favorite scene was the topless one (big surprise) and he laughed when the people were falling into the ocean. He is a sensitive kid who is easily touched so I asked him what he found so amusing about that scene. He said, "Mom, it's all so fake. It would make a cool video game though." He loved the music score. In AMITC, I came to the conclussion that Oxgodby was more than just a nice place to visit. It was as if the whole town was a metaphore for what people need in order to heal from the experience of war. He was not only restoring himself with the mural, he was uncovering a mystery. The mystery itself might be symbolic.

The Spring has registered the name colinfirth.com Anyone interested in building http://www.colinfirth.com ?

The Spring has registered the name colinfirth.com That's only appropriate. ;-)) Terry, you and Riette will be sorry anyway you ever invited us to Art, we will flood the place with Colin pics, all in the name of Art. ;-) Anyone interested in building http://www.colinfirth.com ? Yes, and we start with the "Official Firthaholics Anonymus" page.

NOOOOOOOOOO, please!!! Thank you all for the feedback on art - should I list a survival kit for those who go there for the first time? The first thing to bring along will be ..... you guessed it - sunglasses!!! But I did warn you in advance!!! So are any of you dearies going to post your art and loo sketches in our gallery or not?

(Terry) The Spring has registered the name colinfirth.com Anyone interested in building http://www.colinfirth.com ? Of course...don't go anywhere. We'll think of something ;-)

(Sofie) It was as if the whole town was a metaphore for what people need in order to heal from the experience of war. Very nicely put. I'd forgotten to include the little girl who died. Birkin came face to face with a death more senseless than those resulting from war. The death of an innocent child. I think this put his own experience back into perspective. He was not only restoring himself with the mural, he was uncovering a mystery. The mystery itself might be symbolic. What do you mean by *mystery*? About the muralist? Would like to hear how you see it as being symbolic.

What does it mean? Spring has registered Colinfirth.com. In practical terms. Aren't there already 3 boards?

Re; Saving Pvt. Ryan . (Nan) I'm a horrible weeper and could never see that in public. You would not be alone. I saw it in a full movie house and no one stirred at the end of the three hours ...not a dry eye in the place...men too.Tom Hank's best. And Steven Speilberg's gift to this century. NOW...back to AMITC.... Karen, I could not find Oxgodby anyplace even with a magnifying glass. . Perhaps a hamlet...but then it would not have a train station. It must be fictional. Sofie: By the "mystery" of the mural do you mean the fact that it had laid uncovered for so many centuries? Terry: Re: www.colinfirth.com.......are you evicting us?

Nan....we do impose on you fiercely. Thank you for all the work you put on the snappy pics..... but now you've gotten us used to images to accompany the film discussions. And the cheekiness of us...we expect it, already!! :-.)

Evicting you ??? Heavens no. I am trying to add more value to your incredible manifestation here.

(Karen}*mystery* Tom arrives in Oxgodby a hurt and bitter man. It's dark and raining and his reception by Keach is cold. When he watches Keach's sermon he speaks of Christ wanting some answers. I think he is speaking for himself.The mural becomes symbolic of the answers he seeks.He turns and sees Alice and in the next seen he is uncovering an angel.He has made assumptions about the town's people as being a smug Yorksire lot. His experience has made him view mankind as lacking in goodness and charity. After uncovering the angel, the children arrive bringing companionship and music.Their unjaded view of the world is expressed in genuine interest for what he is doing, which contrasts his view of simply being a laborer. When he first meets Alice he describes the mural as being a puzzle. It comes together slowly if it comes together at all. Alice describes it as being like opening a parcel at Christmas which is in direct opposition of his own pessimistic view. It is as if she seduces him back to life as he lies among the dead. Keach is the antithesis of what Tom wants to be, yet it is as if he is holding a mirror up showing him what can happen if he shuts himself off to life and love. It is also Keach who minimizes the importance of restoring the mural as it will "distract." From his own self importance maybe and the emptiness his life has become because of it. Although Tom leaves the town without expressing his love and desire toward Alice , he is able to bite into the apple she has given him and seems to relish it without bitterness. He has solved the mystery as to who he is. He can feel love and desire while remaining moral and forgiving.

(Karen) called the publisher this morning and they said it had been out of print for quite a while. Borders online has them for less than $20. Vinyl covering--haven't got mine yet, so I don't know what that means exactly.

I doublechecked. Borders still has them for $15.21 plus S&H etc., 2-4 weeks to ship. Maybe there's a vault somewhere.

Cheryl, the *vinyl* edition is in Braille. Perhaps, you should contact Borders to confirm, but I noticed the same at amazon.com's listing. Sofie: Love your interpretation of the mystery of the mural, but I think I prefer to look at Tom's experience in Oxgodby as the putting together of a broken jigsaw puzzle. He is more a broken man I think rather than someone who doesn't know who he is. Keach is the antithesis of what Tom wants to be, yet it is as if he is holding a mirror up showing him what can happen if he shuts himself off to life and love. In their final scene together, when he is paying Tom, Keach turns around and says (kind of): "I know what you think of me..." Keach is saying to Tom that he is a *realist* He reminded me of the character played by Edward Fox in The Choir. Someone has to attend to the business of the Church. I rewatched the movie last night and it was even *better* after reading the book. You can see and understand more of what people are saying and little things that go on. For example, on the train at the very beginning, he bumps into someone in the aisle. You can make out an "excuse me" said very sarcastically. This goes so perfectly with the sarcasm and cynicism that fairly flies off the pages from paragraph one. Oh, yes, the Sgt. Milbourne meeting in Ripon is totally different. In the book, he is totally sympathetic to Moon's plight and that he got the shaft, whereas in the movie he is bitter and the sentiment expressed is resentful that he and the other captains suffered while Moon got to sit out the remainder of the war in the glass house.

(Karen) He is more a broken man I think rather than someone who doesn't know who he is. Karen, do you think at the end Tom is still a boken, lonely man? I tend to agree with whomever said that Oxgodby and the mural, as a conduit ,helped to heal him. Great insight into his persona, Sofie.

(Evelyn) Karen, do you think at the end Tom is still a boken, lonely man? Oh, no, he leaves Oxgodby sans stammer and twitches. He is on the mend. When he returns, he is just looking back on the miraculous place and time he spent in the country. He is marveling at how such a place (the church and mural, the children, Alice via the book & rose) saved him.

When he returns I don't think he's just looking back. I find almost unbearable pathos in this scene. The old man's eyes are so sad. I always interpreted this scene to mean that he never again found true love (what sort of future would he have had with Vinny?) and that he carried the book and the pressed rose to remind him of the feelings he had for Mrs Keach and also the times when he came so close to declaring them. He briefly found happiness - and remembering the children only intensifies this feeling of loss. Or am I being too fanciful? What sort of interpretation does the book give? Was this Tom's only experience of love?

AMITC Ending Bethan What sort of interpretation does the book give? The book does not have Tom as an old man returning ot Oxgodby. Or biting into the apple, for that matter.He says"I never returned,never wrote, never met anyone who might have given me news of Oxgodby". Before that he says: "We can ask and ask but we can't have again what once seemed ours for ever---the way things looked, that church alone in the fields, a bed on a belfry floor, a remembered voice, a loved face. They're gone and you can only wait for the pain to pass". Could also be recapturing youth. Have you ever done that? Returned to a place that has happy memories that can never be duplicated again...that could never go on forever. This is one tricky author....lots of interpretations. And Vinny...I hope that nymphomaniac wasn't around long!

Waterstone's UK's largest on-line bookstore says they have AMITC . Would this also be a braille edition? Has enybody contacted them? http://waterstones.co.uk./

(Karen) Thanks! I sent them an inquiry. I didn't see the little W A T BRAI off to the right, but you're probably right that it means Braille. Now if only you could read the movie by feeling it ;-).

(Cheryle) Now if only you could read the movie by feeling it ;-). Way to go, Cheryle.....A COLIN FIRTH FILM IN BRAILLE.....to accompany the book. You're in the business....here's a goal to shoot for. Think of the great contribution this would be to "womankind"!!

Re: Waterstone's Does it give the name of the publisher? That would be one hint. (Bethan) I don't think he's just looking back. I find almost unbearable pathos in this scene. The old man's eyes are so sad. Oh dear, I thought I saw a little twinkle in his eyes. Was that a tear? I must go back and check this out. He may not have worked things out with Vinny (the little tramp), but that summer in Oxgodby gave him enough to make it through life and into old manhood. ;-) (Evelyn) Way to go, Cheryle.....A COLIN FIRTH FILM IN BRAILLE.... LOL!! Let's not be too demanding. Book, film, who cares!! The man himself and my fingers would do v.nice for me.

( Karen) Book, film, who cares!! The man himself and my fingers would do v.nice for me. "Grabby"(pun intended).....there's one in every crowd!! :-)

This conjurs up new possibilities for Contour Checkers which were heretofore unimaginable. Where does the line start? I am right behind you!!!!

(Evelyn)Waterstone's UK's largest on-line bookstore says they have AMITC. Yes, they do say that. I've emailed them to ask them and will pass on the results.

I know, this is not in line with what is being didcused now, but there are some new Snappy pictures of Colin in Romeo In Love, over at FoF. Does anyone know if it is going to be released in the U. S or if it is, when. After viewong these shots I really want to see this film.

lucie, do you mean *Shakespeare* in love?

Lucie, we've been discussing the Snappies over at topic #97 (General - Colin Firth). The movie is Shakespeare in Love (SiL) and it most definitely will be released in the US. NY and LA on December 4 or 5 and the rest of the country on Christmas Day. This is a big movie with big names and will have megapromotion. There's little chance it will sit on the shelf. We are all counting the days... ;-D

How do we know when to move on? I'm probably the only one who now has seen almost everything but wasn't privy to past conversations about them at Pemberley, so I may be the only one who's so eager to see what others think.

Don't worry, Cheryl, we haven't done all that many. In this separate topic format, there was Fever Pitch, The English Patient, Nostromo and AMITC now. You can go back to read the old ones, but we don't do them according to any prescribed schedule. Somebody just needs to stand up like in an old Mickey Rooney film and say, "Hey kids, let's discuss a film. We can use my uncle's old barn. I'll be fun!" But sometimes we need to take a rest between discussions to tend to our wounds and replace lost limbs. ;-) What would you like to do next? Just a hint.

Don't worry, Cheryl, we haven't done all that many. In this separate topic format, there was Fever Pitch, The English Patient, Nostromo and AMITC now. You can go back to read the old ones, but we don't do them according to any prescribed schedule. Somebody just needs to stand up like in an old Mickey Rooney film and say, "Hey kids, let's discuss a film. We can use my uncle's old barn. It'll be fun!" But sometimes we need to take a rest between discussions to tend to our wounds and replace lost limbs. ;-) What would you like to do next? Just a hint.

there *was* Fever Pitch, The English Patient... How did I ever get out of the second grade? :-o .

Somebody just needs to stand up like in an old Mickey Rooney film and say, "Hey kids, let's discuss a film. We can use my uncle's old barn. I'll be fun!" } Didn't someone say something like this at our get together in Chicago? ;-)

(Ann) Didn't someone say something like this at our get together in Chicago? ;-) Did someone? Or could you have imagined it during your blackouts caused by loss of blood? ;-D Oh, I know, this was in reference to something else, wasn't it? ;-)

Oh, I know, this was in reference to something else, wasn't it? ;-) } It was pre-blackout (BTW it is healing very nicely!!) Hey kids! Let's put on a show. We can use my uncle's barn. Everybody will com. It'll be swell!

(Karen)How did I ever get out of the second grade? :-o My sentiments exactly when I see some of my posts. However, 1) we were generating sentences at a much slower rate then :-) and 2) it seems grammar and spelling should be the least of _my_ worries here ;-) Hmmmmm. It doesn't seem Playmaker is a big favorite. It's cheesy, but there are things about it that I really like about Colin's performance in the beginning. And unfortunately it's practically a docudrama for the ridiculous way actors can be and are preyed upon. WofF? Completely in line with what C has said and done about his own fame, but the only thing that surprised me was Peter O�Toole�s line in the end�"I really liked it.". Apartment Zero toes C�s Party line as well ("all those people boring in, desperate to get in, and they don�t really know or care about you" or however it was put). HOTP would be fun, its� thin spots aside. FF: puh-leeze. FP is waiting for me at the post office. TD is either there, or I haven�t ordered yet. ATA: general acclaim, I th nk, that there's not enough there. V someday, even though the end is bizarre to me. Is PM too much of an "insider" flick to be of any interest (never mind that most of it is not believable)? They�re tedious, movies about the movie business and writing about writers block and songs about being about being a rock star. (Even _8 1/2_. Maybe if you�re Kafka or Jackson Browne it�s ok. :-) ) What about the Piggy Movie? There are several things it does well. Votes?

I'm game for Playmaker, Advocate, anything. Hope we discuss them all some day. I don't think PM is too much of an "insider" flick or at least for me, that's not why I don't like it. I dislike it mostly for the laughable acting (not Colin) and also because I hated seeing Colin grovel as Michael though he looked mighty cute. It would be an entertaining movie to dissect. Your collection is growing by leaps and bounds, Cheryl! Even if we've discussed them here, I hope you feel free to give us your thoughts on them at any time. I must put in a good word for FF, though, and that word (words) is "Where can I find a Joe Prince?" Colin is absolutely adorable and on that level, FF is very watchable. And I go down to that level a lot. ;-)

Please, anything but the "P" movie....

I just wish T or MOTM was available for all of us to watch. It is very vexing to think that we have to wait till December for something new w/ CF. Nan and Lou will just have to sustain us all with illustrated fanfic until then.

(nan)Please, anything but the "P" movie.... Maybe if we just whisper quietly in the corner, trying not to disturb you? :-) We won't talk about groveling, we'll say g********. I just think/feel there are cool things in the early part of the movie that are a clue to his "memorability factor." Those without refined sensibilities obviously need a bludgeoning to remember C, and there aren't many other roles I've seen where he's gotten to have as much authority as in the acting coach. Don't we th nk one of the charms of Darcy is his authority? There's a little authority in the Advocate role (not to mention---livestock!) But a lot of victim elsewhere. And as for the end of the of �shall we call it Q? Well, that was the role. Did he do his job, despite the other "actors" and the "director" and the "script", as far as we can tell? What did he uniquely bring to it? In other words, pretend it�s a long acting exercise. (heide)...growing by leaps and bounds, Cheryl! I'm afraid when I do something, I really do it :-# ...that word (words) is "Where can I find a Joe Prince?" "My mama told me, you'd better shop around." :-) I'm tired of movies where men find clearly insane women attractive (Betty Blue, etc.). That's one of my prejudices. However, let's talk! And I go down to that level a lot. ;-) I certainly would ;-) As often as possible.

(CherylE)I just think/feel there are cool things in the early part of the movie that are a clue to his "memorability factor." The last time we talked about this, Arami used similar words to defend it to me. I remember her being annoyed because I used the word "stinkiosity" to describe the overall feel of the film. LOL! Those days of butting heads seem like years ago. Anyway she, too, believes that, regardless of what's happening around him, Colin has some very good moments in that film. I can agree that it isn't the worst movie ever made. He just seems so miserable to me, that I feel almost (*almost* ;-p) guilty watching it. There are certain scenes (you know which ones) where I actually cringe for him, the poor dear. Colin, himself, wishes it would "sink without a trace" (Arami or Bethen, tell me if I got that quote right), so... However, I was just giving my opinion about the next film discussion, same as everyone else. The fact that I don't like the movie shouldn't stop you from talking about it or force you to whisper if you do ;-p Knock yourselves out ;-)

(hiedi)Where can I find a Joe Prince? I'd love to find one! Hope there's one looking for (not insane) but somewhat off-balance woman! (nan) "stinkiosity" I can see your point nan, and the fact that he hates the film does sway my opinion too. There is that pesky little fantasy of having him on the casting couch though. HHhhhmmm...slap me.

Here's a rarely seen quote...... ***************** The Sun, 27 August, 1994 MY DUFF JOB FOR THE BOY ...(snip)...... It wipes out memories of his last job - a Hollywood thriller The Playmaker, which he brands "complete rubbish." Colin, 34, who was kidnapped journalist John McCarthy in Hostages, only did the film so he could be with Will, his three-year-old son by ex-lover Meg Tilly, also 34, the American actress. He says: "My son happened to be in Los Angeles at the time. It was a three-week job and it paid extremely well. "It's a rather silly story about an acting coach who trains an actress by psychologically torturing her. "I knew it would be complete rubbish and I sincerely hope no one ever sees it." *************end of quote

But with just enough alcohol *P* is quite enterntaining:)-

(LauraMM) But with just enough alcohol. Or large quantities of herbal refreshments. The you can overlook the dumb script.

(renate)Here's a rarely seen quote.. Always something new up those sleeves! "It's a rather silly story about an acting coach who trains an actress by psychologically torturing her. Fascinating, as Spock would say. Isn't it about an actress who decides to take drastic action to further her acting career, and finds herself entangled in a web of mystery and murder? She was passable, he was really great. It might be easier to see that if he didn't think it was all about him, which it wasn't. (nan)I was just giving my opinion.....Knock yourselves out ;-) Yeah, you know we'll be overwhelmed by the putrid slime emanating from each frame and learn our lesson ;-) Ok, ok. Absolute stinkiosity. I wanted to bash his head in when he starts with the scissors. Or the stupid wheelchair thing. She needs to be in AA, not slurping a dirty red. But gentle readers, that's my point. I remember someone (one of us) saying she doesn't know the difference between the actor and the director and the script. In a sense, we can't know everything, for reasons I suppose I ought not go into just now ;-). But Arami seems to be pretty good at drawing the distinctions inasmuch as on can, and maybe other people I can't remember right now are too (sorry). We could talk about that, here and in other stinkers: How to separate Colin from the project. The piggy writer and piggy director got that girlie on the piano. It _is_ painful. Once I had a terrific actor who had done great things, did something great for me, did a couple more great things, but then was in a lull. I was casting for something and Danny coincidentally invited me to his off-off-Broadway play. It was entertaining---not even someone getting shot outside the theater budged the audience. (Someone had already called the ambulance�what else could we do?) Seeing him do nude scenes in a small loft/theater, all the other people being so bad, this adaptat on being so bad--it nearly broke my heart. But I learned: if you want to be an actor, or be friends with an actor, or be more ;-), this is the deal. Actors have to work. Any dramatic artist can work privately for only so long. You are compelled to be IN something. That�s the whole point of what you do. I read yesterday something Jodie Foster said about not wanting to do nude scenes for a long time. On *Hotel New Hampshire* director Tony Richardson told her something to the effect that she would never be a real actress until she could include her body. She wanted to hit him at the time, but now she sees what he means. HNH is not a work of art; most things aren�t. Most of Jodie�s movies, for example, aren�t. But we are all behooved to do our best, even in the 85-90% that leaves a lot to be desired. aybe you don't, but I look ridiculous a great deal of the time. Being embarrassed is another thing altogether. It�s hard to develop an attitude that will keep us vibrantly on the field (any field): "_It_ stunk, but I was great." Or, "I did the best I could with what I had at the time." Or "Oh, what I learned!" Whatever you think of Michael Caine or Gene Hackman or Anthony Hopkins or anyone who works a lot, they must have this or they�d have shot themselves long ago. If people have talent and skill, they can�t do it just for the money. Often, these guys, and (to raise the stakes) Judi Dench, Maggie Smith, and Jo n Plowright are the best thing about whatever they do. How? By not by being ashamed to be there, in their less-than-stellar projects. I read something recently about Zeffirelli directing a difficult, hot scene in *Tea With Mussolini.* These three actresses, Cher, and extras (=warm bodies) are shooting (=hot lights) in a tiny basement, and the streets outside are too narrow to get the stars� trailers parked within walking distance. Dench, Smith, and Plowright had the worst of it, waiting around in woo and fur, and they were silently furious. They nailed their lines every time, and went back to crossword puzzles while everyone else on the set tried to get their contribution to the take(s) right. The writer was struck by the actresses� attitudes of doing your job and moving on. One of them said, "When this is over, all we�ll remember is that it was very hot." I aspire to this equanimity. This is not to say that a Zeffirelli film could have stinkiosity, but as REM says: Everybody hurts sometimes. But maybe the game of *What Percentage Colin, What Percentage Dumbo X and Y* runs counter to the point of this board. Maybe it�s no fun to imagine DB in the real world, with mundane problems. I love watching actors deal with wacky material�if we both know they�re in a wacky situation, it becomes a game, and they know I think highly of them so no matter what they do it�s good fun. WoF and AZ were certainly wacky. Valmont, well, the poor guy didn�t _have_ playable material at the end. And so on.

Whoa, Cheryl, you've lost me. Are you saying actors will take roles, any role because they have to act? I like to think DB was offered other roles besides PM at that time but took it because it fit his other needs and obligations, not his acting needs. But maybe the game of *What Percentage Colin, What Percentage Dumbo X and Y* runs counter to the point of this board. I think we generally discuss the role CF is playing rather than CF himself though I always find time to comment on his looks which are undeniably, at the core, CF's own, not the character's (chameleon though he is). But I don't think anything runs counter to the point of this board, that is as long as we're discussing CF's films or related topics. Maybe it�s no fun to imagine DB in the real world, with mundane problems. Actually I prefer to think of him with mundane problems, like the rest of us. Which to me can mean being embarrassed about a particular piece of work (or something shoddy you prepared at the office) and really rather just forgetting it. But there it is. Playmaker is out there for public consumption and I have no problem critiquing it. Weren't we going to do Valmont in the near future though?

( Heide) Playmaker is out there for public consumption and I have no problem critiquing it. Weren't we going to do Valmont in the near future though? Playmaker is OK by me,.....only if Cheryle promises we'll do Valmont sometime. I certainly am looking forward to the redeeming qualities of P.!! :-) (It won't be the first time I've changed my mind on a film)

(heide) Whoa, Cheryl, you've lost me. Are you saying actors will take roles, any role because they have to act? I like to think DB was offered other roles besides PM at that time but took it because it fit his other needs and obligations, not his acting needs. Isn't that the same thing? They have to act (and probably need to make money, support the family, etc.) You can be offered different things, and you take something like PM because it fit his other needs and obligations, not his acting needs. We all are (heide)being embarrassed about a particular piece of work (or something shoddy you prepared at the office and really rather just forgetting it. But when that's so, I try not to bring it up again at a client meeting or to my boss (or, in C's case, to a reporter.) The less said the better. And most people have to do things we dislike or are "beneath" us for money--even years-long jobs or whole careers, if we can't find our way out. Everybody knows that's true for actors. But it seems to me that if I work with people and take their money, though I hate them and the project, again, less said the better. I heard that Jack Nicholson never said anything bad about anybody in the business. I find that very hard to believe, but it made me start thinking about this dilemna of tacky projects and having a career. 1. You don't like the people or the project. (Their response: They probably are aware of your opinion, especially if you're leaking hostility, and they don't feel too warmly about you because of it.) 2. The project is over years ago and you continue to put it down in the media. (Reactivates hatred of former co-workers and all of their cronies; who likes to be scorned?) 3. What comes of it? We're reminded of a stinker. But maybe it was just an actual "real" comment of many made to the reporter, and it's nice to say your real feelings once in a while. (heide)I think we generally discuss the role CF...don't think anything runs counter ... discussing CF's films or related topics. Just checking. Sometimes my enthusiasm is a Big Wet Blanket to people who don't really care about mechanics:-) (heide)Weren't we going to do Valmont in the near future though? (evelyn)...if Cheryle promises we'll do Valmont sometime. Sure. I thought from skimming the boards you had done it pretty thoroughly.

Hi gang. I have been away for yet another week on business and have enjoyed catching up on all your posts today. You inspired me to re-watch AMITC. It had been awhile and I enjoyed it even more after your insightful discussions. Thanks! Hmmm, Playmaker. I seem to remember this being discussed back in my lurking days, but I'm game. It will give me an incentive to watch the whole thing over from the beginning. I have to admit my copy seems to keep re-winding over the same parts, but I won't say which ones ;-)

Given the dearth of comments found in print about PM, I would think CF is trying to avoid bringing it up. Perhaps the one Renate posted was the result of some rather persistant questioning by an obnoxious reporter who wouldn't take "Let's move on; I have" as an answer. Remember, when in doubt, blame the media.;-) Discussing PM is fine with me. I think I'm going to enjoy hearing more of the insider view that you've already been writing about, Cheryl. Yeah, its a crappy film (a 9 on the Stinkosity Scale), but I'm willing to watch it again even beyond those couple of scenes in slo-mo. ;-D Another thing. You're so right, Cheryl. CF's comment was all wrong. The film is about the actress. Wonder why he said that? His comments about his films have been right on in the past. He has usually provided great insight into the written works as well. Strange about this one.

Question: Can we start PM after Labor Day (i.e., after 9/7)? Puhleez????

You're so right, Cheryl. CF's comment was all wrong. The film is about the actress. Wonder why he said that? Sounds to me that he is pretty defensive about it....embarassed....trying to rationalize choosing it . I don't think it's that bad.

(Karen)Can we start PM after Labor Day (i.e., after 9/7)? Puhleez???? Ok by me. That'll give me time to look at it again too. One thing that I find helps is if you think about it in sequences. I've only seen it once and that was when I first got here so I maybe including too much, but ...I think it goes: Actress is unhappy about career. Agent is scum. Bartender tells her about acting coach and MC (main character) decides to go for it. End of sequence 1. That may be two sequences--I can't remember if there are a lot of scenes of drinking and complaining and ov rhearing in the bathroom and such. Maybe it's just a long sequence. MC goes to house, blah, blah, blah. MC leaves house for good after much ado. There are sequences within this, mainly beginning and ending as their relationship changes. For example, the pearl thing is a scene (which is smaller than a sequence, what add up to sequences, but it begins with the chat about how much does she want to be a star. Many things happen to build her determination (some to our disgust, some of C's greatest moments IMO), but when the pearls go down, there's a release, a resolution of he challenge he's made to her. (Liked that scene v. much BTW. He's very good at the up-close work, the relationship stuff.) Then the relationship is different, and when does it change again? (I think he gets even better.) If I remember correctly, that (the relationship and its changes) is what drives each sequence until we get to the murder. Then it's action driven again. (Karen)(Evelyn)I think you're right. Definitely blame the media--they have to keep themselves employed, at anyone's expense and certainly at the expense of reality. I wish I were a musician so I could write a song which I can only convey in mountains of words here--to tell him it's OK, he didn't do anything wrong. That's why I need actors _and_film _and_music, and a good editor ;-) To get across simple things that nobody told us or we forgot. (Karen)He has usually provided great insight into the written works as well. Mais oui! If he wasn't smart, I wouldn't like him. And *jornalists* have long done as ET does--collect as much info as possible, file it, and run it when you feel like it. So it can be way out of context.

So sorry, I didn't read the earlier post closely enough and I don't think it makes sense. Retransmit 2nd paragraph: MC goes to acting coach's house= beginning of sequence 2. Blah, blah, blah. MC leaves house for good after much ado=end of an overarching sequence. This is one long sequence, but there are sequences within this. These smaller ones are the ones I look for, and if memory serves, these sequences begin and end as their relationship changes. For example, the pearl incident, beginning with her waking up and ending with the pearls getting ground up, is a _dramatic_ scene. So as not to confuse things let's leave all that way of looking at it aside. Sometimes these correspond with sequences, sometimes they don't. (Unless you're a playwright or novelist or simply don't find this confusing; then have at it!) Another way to look at the pearl incident is that it's a sequence that begins when she arrives at the house. The focus of their struggle is: how bad do you want it? She has various responses, things happen, but ultimately her answer is: enough to lose the pearls forever. There's a release. That leads to the next sequence. I think this pearl sequence and the next one or two have a lot of startlingly good work (C); he's _so_ good at the up-close work, the relationship stuff. BTW, am I the only one who eels sorry for the girl? Part of my cringes here are for her, and I want to take a baseball bat to the writer and the director. If I remember correctly, the relationship (and when it changes) drives each sequence until we get to the murder. Then it's action driven again.

Shoot! And all I ever got out of the movie was the shower scene! ;-D Bethan, post your directions now so that everyone can study the film adequately in conjunction with Cheryl's excellent guide above.

firth.com is coming online soon. Ready for the content producers almost. And colinfirth.com will be at the same address. I'll see about setting up a placemarker page and co-ordinating with nan and the firth web team.

Terry, *TWO* Firth-domains at once? Wow! :-))

Terry, will the Firth-domain websites belong to Drool.....since we are all part owners of this Spring community? I like the idea of " owning a piece of Colin". :-))))

Thank you Cheryle for giving us a guideline on how to view and appreciate ( are you listening, Nan?) this film. . OK everybody....start viewing Playmaker and we shall start discussion on Tuesday ...Sept.8

(Terry) I'll see about setting up a placemarker page and co-ordinating with nan and the firth web team. Thanks Terry. Just send me an email when Jeff's done and we'll go from there.

(Evelyn) I like the idea of " owning a piece of Colin". :-)))) Now, now...I know you're only kidding, but let's not go there. Only Colin owns Colin (well, perhaps Livia, too ;-p). BTW, Spring is the registrant of the domain name, not Drool. One has nothing to do with the other. (Karen) Shoot! And all I ever got out of the movie was the shower scene! ;-D Now this I understand. LOL! (Evelyn) Thank you Cheryle for giving us a guideline on how to view and appreciate (are you listening, Nan?) this film. Yes, I read it but it doesn't change my opinion. Honey, school starts next week. (aaaaaaaagh!!!) No offense to anyone, but do you think I'm going to waste my few remaining brain cells trying to be cerebral about Playmaker? ;-p I'm lucky if I get through this program in one piece... Nan (having back-to-school anxiety)

(Nan) No offense to anyone, but do you think I'm going to waste my few remaining brain cells trying to be cerebral about Playmaker? ;-p OK, if you don't want to be cerebral, be technical. Need you to enhance a glass block segment. You know which one. ;-)

Third from the right, second row up (or was it second from the right, third row up? :-) )The Full Monty for the eagle sighted (or wishful thinking for the over imaginative!)

(Nan) Spring is the registrant of the domain name, not Drool. One has nothing to do with the other. But aren't we all "one family"? Need you to enhance a glass block segment. You know which one. ;-) Yesssssss!!

Get your little Snappy clicking away, Nan.

I'm in total agreement with nan. I'm starting my last year of grad. school next week and I vote we all cut to the chase. The shower scene is about all I want to deal with, although there is one scene that does bring a special little fantasy to mind. Hhhhmmmm? Where's that boy toy when I need him?

(nan)...waste my few remaining brain cells trying to be cerebral about Playmaker? LOL! No way Jose! PM isn't going anywhere :-) Anyway, I don�t think of PM as a film. When I really look at C, what he does, how he does it ---miraculously, everything else vanishes (almost). Cerebral? Visceral . . . aren�t you the one who likes a certain hockey player? I was married to one once. I lurve visceral. C is visceral here. I watched it again today since I'm going away for Labor Day, and I retract my earlier statements. I think ALL of his performance is first rate and I'm proud to be promoting it. (karen)And all I ever got out of the movie was the shower scene! ;-D Some of the rest is just as, um, visceral when you feel connected to his performance. For me it's like the difference between liking a song because it makes you have a story or feeling, and loving a song because you feel like you are having YKW with the singer; you are knowing him _intimately_. The latter happens as I know more about acting. It can be a very direct experience, that connection. Cheryl's excellent guide above.I dunno about that, but if only you could see just him. He's talking to you. You�re reading the girl�s lines with him, so you don�t have to worry about the rest of the characters; they�re just somebody�s relatives filling in for today . You�re only in the scenes with C. (Of course, you�re much better than she is. ;-) ) He's talking to you. (terry)firth.com is coming online soon...web team. I had wondered but thought it was bad form to ask. I can't wait to see what happens. (bethan)Third from the right... imaginative! Were these the instructions from the past that made me laugh so hard I choked?

From Waterstone's, if you're still in the market for AMITC: Just to confirm that the above title published by Quince Tree Press is in fact a normal print edition and was despatched on 29/08/98 via Airmail as requested. Thanks for the suggestion, Evelyn.

FILM RELEASE SCHEDULE USA Fever Pitch October or November 1998 New York and LA does this me only these cities?

(cherylE) aren�t you the one who likes a certain hockey player? Indeed I am. He is the very essence of my lustful aspirations ;-) I was married to one once. Aah! A man with scars who wears garters. YUM! ;-) Anyone I know?

(Donna) does this me only these cities? Looks that way. Fortunately, I happen to be in one of them ;-)

(Donna) does this me only these cities? Nick Hornby said at his book signing that FP would be put out in a limited release. I was hoping that meant more than just two cities, but maybe not. (Nan) Looks that way. Fortunately, I happen to be in one of them ;-) And fortunately, I'm in the other one. Hmmm, access to CF almost makes up for all the smog and 112 degree weather we've been having.

Thanks for such a quick response. So then I'll have to wait a year for the VHS video! I give up:(

Fever Pitch will likely be in other cities, but just not in wide release. I can't imagine that it would be *that* limited. I can't think of any film that only played NY & LA. Doesn't even make distribution worth one's efforts. It will play here. (I know it will, I know it will, I know it will). If I keep saying it, it will happen. ;-D

(Nan)Anyone I know? Probably not. He was the first Russian to be in the draft and play in the States. Went to the wrong team (for his playing style, LA), and it was not pretty. (Nan)I happen to be in one of them ;-) (Jana)I'm in the other one. I'm in one:-) (Karen)I can't think of any film that only played NY & LA. Doesn't even make distribution worth one's efforts. Maybe something that needs to be shown before the deadline for Academy Award consideration. Or if it needs a theatrical release to fulfill a contractual obligation before it can go to cable or video. But for everyone's sake I'll see if there's a distribution spell in my witchcraft manual . . .

(Cheryl) Maybe something that needs to be shown before the deadline for Academy Award consideration. Don't think FP fits in this category. ;-) But those films go into wide release in January or later when the Xmas stuff has run its course. Or if it needs a theatrical release to fulfill a contractual obligation before it can go to cable or video. Interesting...cable or video. Bwaaa!! I want to see it on a BIG BIG screen. But for everyone's sake I'll see if there's a distribution spell in my witchcraft manual. What about contacts at the distributors for I'm sure the *complete* list of cities? I believe I heard the name Phaedre or some such.

Should have said: But those films go to other cities later when the Xmas stuff has run its course or at the art houses when screens are freed up from the 4Q crush of films. But as FP is not an art house type of film...

(CherlyE) Probably not. He was the first Russian to be in the draft and play in the States. Went to the wrong team (for his playing style, LA), and it was not pretty. You were married to Victor Nechaev? Then again, I don't know if he was drafted. But he was definitely the first Russian to actually play in the NHL...and with the Kings. (Karen) Interesting...cable or video. Bwaaa!! I want to see it on a BIG BIG screen I haven't seen Colin on a big screen in an actual starring role. I don't think ATA counts, for obvious reasons.

(Nan)I happen to be in one of them ;-) (Jana)I'm in the other one. I'm in neither. But I'd still love to see FP released in the US somewhere. I want to see Siskel & Ebert review it. I want to see the video in our local stores and not with a big SALE sticker on Colin's face like I saw on every copy of FP in a London Tower record store). I want..I want...I want....

But I'd still love to see FP released in the US. Yes I agree with this,but I could care less what S&E think. Now your last statement must mean that the movie ran its course. That is understandable and now way refers to the quality of the movie,right? I do believe that very many soccer fans here in the states would really enjoy this movie.

Fever Pitch will likely be in other cities, but just not in wide release. Often the distrib tests the film on each coast to see how it "sells". WILDE started in LA and NYC then a few weeks later covered other major cities.(Chicago, Dallas, Detroit ) It was not scheduled for Oklahoma City (not a major city...only 2 M people!), but was released there and played three weeks at an AMC Cinema. FP should do at least as well. Has a good target audience too.

I want to see the video in our local stores and not with a big SALE sticker on Colin's face like I saw on every copy of FP in a London Tower record store). FP was released end of October 97 when I was in UK, and selling v. well. Came out same time as TEP. At Heathrow I was pleased to see FP and TEP both with big displays...thinking how great it was to see two CF vids prominently featured at once. Maybe the sale ones are from an additional press. I also wonder if the British are into buying videos as we are. I don't think they attend the cinema as often as we do in the US.

Okay, I've just spent my lunch break surfing the net......movie release dates! Found October 98 release NY and LA for FP (Phaedra). I also found, puzzlingly, a US site dated about six months ago which listed FP as actually released and (v.g} reviewed it very favourably....praise for Colin and Ruth Gemmell in "one of the most pertinent and entertaining movies of the year". (BTW I think FP did well in video sales in the UK. I agree, we're not a nation of movie goers...perhaps more video watchers (borrow not buy!)!) Then found, very annoyingly, that the two other Handmade movies, Lock Stock and Man with Rain are both listed for January 99 release in the US (While SLOW languishes held by a Bank, for goodness sake...GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!). Also other UK Arts Council funded movies are making it big....Plunket & Greene on general release early 99 in US, ditto Jackie and Helen, plus Venice Film Festival. I'm a lady (:-) ) but doesn't it make you want to SPIT!! Colin must be lucky in love, cause in business he sure has his bli s (not his fault!) MLSF....only found second quarter 99. Why thea delay? Hopefully for a release with some impact."Colin Firth of Oscar winning TEP and SIL" perhaps? :-) Couldn't find any UK dates. We're in for a long, long wait. :-( A fruitful lunchbreak? I dunno. Can anyone come up with anything else.

(Bethan)just spent my lunch break surfing the net...Found October 98 release NY and LA for FP (Phaedra). I also found, puzzlingly, a US site dated about six months ago which listed FP as actually released and (v.g} reviewed it very favourably... I don't want to appear ungrateful, but it would be nice and helpful to have the links as well, dear...:-)

FP did open in Canada during World Cup, perhaps that was its North American release date???? (Donna) I do believe that very many soccer fans here in the states would really enjoy this movie. It's not really a soccer movie. It is more a romantic comedy about a man who has an obsession and the woman who comes between him and his obsession. Any obsession or any sport can be substituted. Hopefully it will be marketed to reach the wider audience. If it is promoted as a soccer movie, then it will likely fail to be noticed. They need to push it as a "When Harry Met Sally" or "Sleepless in Seattle" type, then all the right people will go (i.e., women who cannot but fall for the ever-adorable Pet r Panlike Paul Ashworth).

Well, has it come out in video over there? Coz I'm flying to Toronto the day after tomorrow, and might borrow and watch it when my boyfriend isn't looking... Although he's a soccer fan, he'll probably fall asleep in the middle anyway ;-)

(Donna) I do believe that very many soccer fans here in the states would really enjoy this movie. (Karen) It's not really a soccer movie. I know that no one agrees with me....including the star of the picture..... but I think it's a soccer movie. :-)

I didn't mean to imply by my Tower Records story that FP was not a success because it was on sale. Actually, if I remember correctly, it was part of a promotion at that particular store, along with The Full Monty and other big name films so I would think it was pretty successful. What I found funny was that on all the Girl Side covers, nothing obstructed the viewing of Ruth Gemmell but on every single Boy Side cover (and I looked at a bunch) a big red sticker was smack on Colin's face. It was like some sadistic store employee (male of course) was out to get even with every Darcy fan. Bethan, don't get discouraged. We're all in this with you, we're just making you do the legwork. Someday you're going to find out something fantastic and I can't wait to read that.

on every single Boy Side cover (and I looked at a bunch) a big red sticker was smack on Colin's face. It was like some sadistic store employee (male of course) was out to get even with every Darcy fan. But this photo of Colin isn't the best one can imagine... in fact it's the least favourite of mine: he's totally unrecognizable, so who cares.

(Nan) he was definitely the first Russian Now how on earth could you possibly know a thing like that? Yes, none other.

But this photo of Colin isn't the best one can imagine... in fact it's the least favourite of mine: he's totally unrecognizable, so who cares. Agreed. Colin doesn't look like Colin, He doesn't even look like Colin as Paul Ashworth. Part of a misguided marketing ploy to dispel the Darcy image?! Movie release dates......I can't remember the exact web sites. I just use various meta-search engines, such as askjeeves.com, and just see what comes up through the search terms.

I know I need remind no one of the date today (happy birthday, sweetie) but it's also 3 days after US Labor Day. Let Playmaker begin.

Okay, "Playmaker", may not be CF's better films, (again, Happy Birthday, Colin!!) but Good God!, he does look very good;) I particularly like the glasses, the sweater when he is outside when whatshername shows up at that fabu house! Oh, when he is watching her in that room -- he looks sinister, but sexy!! I watched it, well tried to watch it while sober. I think I definitely like this movie better whilst drunk. You get so much more out of it:) I like Michael, but don't understand how he can be so forceful as the "Playmaker", then lose it as himself. I know that he is playing a role here, (Michael, I mean), but he SLEPT with her and SHOWERED with her. Ya think he woulda known:) On the rock, I mean;) And she(what the heck was her name?) looked better with that wig on!

Hey Laura....who the hell is Michael? The Playmaker is RossTalbot, and she is Jamey Harris. The bartender is Eddie. OK..let's start all over again..... Tomorrow, Heide...we'll start in earnest. We've been distracted with B'days (Happy B'day DB), and the debut of new website. Such excitement at Drool....

OK, Laura...I apologize.... Now I know who you mean by Michael -on-the-rocks vs. Ross-in-the-shower. And are you a new Auntie tonight?

No, she still hasn't had the baby:( So I guess pushing for September 10, was really pushing it:) Hee hee. Michael is his real (character) name; Ross was the real "Playmaker", the dead guy:)

I thought Playmaker was the name of the movie Jamie and Michael wanted to be in. (Laura)don't understand how he can be so forceful as the "Playmaker", then lose it as himself. I know that he is playing a role here, (Michael, I mean), but he SLEPT with her and SHOWERED with her. Ya think he woulda known:) On the rock, I mean;) Hard to say if that�s the stupidest thing in the movie, but it�s got to be in the top 3. If he�s so enamored of her, at first her voice would remind him of Jamie, even if he wasn�t expecting her. And it�d be downhill from there�certainly not uphill ;-) To me, at least 3 things contribute to this part being clear, sharp, and sexy. 1)(the best) Playing Ross, he always has something to do. 2) As an actor, these scenes are about standard things actors actually talk about, so he�d know the material like the back of his hand, and the authority comes through. 3)He doesn�t care what anybody thinks, and that�s priceless. Maybe because he thought the movie was garbage from the beginning. Characters who don�t give a damn (and are cute) can be very engaging. 1)Having something to do is really important; actors ACT. Unfortunately, scripts and directors are usually stupid and/or untrained and/or not suited for the job, and actors are asked to "be jealous", "be upset", etc. What does that mean? It doesn�t belong in a screenplay or a shooting script since it�s not something the eye can see. It�s not something directors should tell actors because "jealous" isn�t a verb. In all these scenes, even if the actions are stupid, C�s given himself something to do. I think he did it, because all the other scenes are limp and people don�t have clear objectives and there�s no conflict. One thing great screen actors do (I don�t know theater) is they try to overcome bad directors just this way: they direct themselves. Michael would also have been through all these acting classes and exercises before, and because he isn�t doing so well in the business, could relish the role of sadistic master instead of village idiot. Having clear objectives, meeting obstacles, and overcoming them is seductive, and scene after scene in the house follows this pattern. Because C knew where he was going in a scene (as C and as M, as I realized on second viewing), the actress had something to react to, and these scenes crackle (relatively peaking). I�m sometimes tricked into thinking one thing is the objective when it turns out to be another, but the twists keep me more interested. This "having an objective and achieving it" is to me the difference Laura talks about. Michael loses when he�s himself because it�s Jamie�s turn to be in charge, and she falls into clich� (as Jamie and as an actress). Well, the writer/director (henceforth WD) does. The catalog of men�s abuse of women onscreen is much richer than vice versa, and male WDs do so hate to see women abusing male characters, so they just don�t let it go on too long. Neither Jamie nor the actress who plays her is forceful enou h to engage C; she just barks. If C is stronger, he�d take over the scene, and they wouldn�t be making the right movie. He was probably really limited by her, since in the shooting scene he picks up again just before he dies. PS Happy, happy birthday to you, Colin!

(Laura) Michael is his real (character) name; Ross was the real "Playmaker", the dead guy:) (Evelyn) The Playmaker is RossTalbot (Cheryl)I thought Playmaker was the name of the movie Jamie and Michael wanted to be in. Think sports, sports, sports. Michael and Jamie have already been cast in the role of playmaker. They put Eddie in a position to score. (Cheryl) In all these scenes, even if the actions are stupid, C�s given himself something to do. I think he did it, because all the other scenes are limp and people don�t have clear objectives and there�s no conflict. Beyond self-direction, he is just a much better actor. You can see it in Jennifer Rubin. After she's been through this ordeal that brings her out, frees her from what is holding her back, she's really the same, actingwise, a nothing. She just moves with more assurance and sucks her finger a little less. Michael loses when he�s himself because it�s Jamie�s turn to be in charge Love how we see Michael reacting to Jamie sprawled out on the piano. She's appealing to Ross (What do you want?), but it's Michael who is responding. That should have given us a clue that he was not really Ross, the sadistic acting coach who had an irate husband take a baseball bat to his legs. Then of course in bed afterward, he knows he shouldn't have gone there. A mistake. He broke character. Major failure for an actor. Perhaps, this is supposed to indicate why he hasn't made it in Hollywood, can t get parts. Michael is just not a good or great actor. male WDs do so hate to see women abusing male characters, so they just don�t let it go on too long. I think in its usual incarnation we would find that scene equally distasteful. What is interesting is that most people comment on how embarrassed Colin looks in that scene. He's supposed to be embarrassed, as would anyone being forced to perform sexually for a role in a movie. Question: Do you think it was necessary to go to such lengths to differentiate Michael from Ross? (the accent and the hair) Colin's certainly able to be two different people without having to don costume and makeup. (Laura) but he SLEPT with her and SHOWERED with her. Ya think he woulda known:) What was that line that Jellicoe's father told him and that he passes onto Neil? "In the dark, all cats are black." ;-D

My take on PM.......strictly B-movie-ish, but not as bad as Nan thinks! CF makes it very watchable, and for once we see a lot of him, in all senses of the word. I tend to suspend critical judgement, totally,........ I must admit that when I first saw PM, I couldn't help wondering how all the armies of women who'd fallen for the delectable but restrained Mr D, would react to the scene on the rocks. (I also can't make out if he is genuinely embarrassed or acting embarrassed). Rather illogically (I was busy rewinding and freeze-framing at the time!) I wondered if it would damage (enhance?) his following!!! Is PM readily available in the US? In the UK, as far as I know, it's only been shown once, very late, on Sky, and isn't available on video. Preserving his reputation or depriving us of treats untold? :-)

Can someone keep a copy of this discussion, please, so that we may perhaps consider posting an edited version permanently on colinfirth.com? Also, has anyone kept a record of our previous film discussions, or at least some interesting excerpts? Or could someone research/retrieve them? It would be great to have a permanent record of these ruminations so that the visitors to the site could compare them with similar ones at other sites. Let Nan know.

(Laura) but he SLEPT with her and SHOWERED with her. Ya think he woulda known:) Michael is a little thick....first clue he gets that she is Jamie is when she tells him she'll meet him in the playroom. Karen, I like your view that Michael broke character when he responds physically to her. He didn't follow through, because he was a rotten actor. You think CF purposely played it that way? Or was the part written with that intention? Thanks Cheryle for all the WD ideas .CF self-directing....maybe a Robert Redford some day :-) He was probably really limited by her, IMO She's the real weak link in this film. Has to be one of the worst actresses on record. As Michael or Ross, he still looks cute though. Gonna view it again tonight :-)

(Bethan) Is PM readily available in the US? Yes. Critics Choice has it...I got it for $5. on sale. I think I read that Best Buy had it in the sale bin. Actually, it has been shown several times on HBO late at night. Definitely, not in prime time. Blockbuster video stocks it too for rent. And not even in the porn section. It is R rated but not NC-17. Hey, with what we're reading in the News....this stuff is pretty mild.

Let's not be too hard on Michael's acting skills. The poor guy had to stay in character for 24 hours, he's allowed a slip-up. The role of Ross was a role of a lifetime for Michael. He got to play a character he obviously wasn't - cold, demanding, commanding, sinister - and he pulled it off. He had me fooled anyway. Plus I think Michael was cuter but then I'm a sick-o for vulnerable men. (Cheryl) 1)(the best) Playing Ross, he always has something to do. True, true. He gets to show some of his chops - um, I mean acting chops. ANd at least he's in the film for much of it. Although the movie would be probably be a bit more bearable if he hadn't had to share all his film time with her. Michael would also have been through all these acting classes and exercises before.. Horrors! You mean the putting the hand in the garbage disposal exercise and the putting on the clown make-up lesson? I think that wheelchair lesson had me more embarrassed than the rocks. (Karen) Love how we see Michael reacting to Jamie sprawled out on the piano. Just what is the attraction anyway? She looks incredibly awkward in that dress, very boyish, not sexy at all. I think she was a pretty girl but she looked so gawky trying to be sexy. (Laura) but he SLEPT with her and SHOWERED with her. Ya think he woulda known:) On the rock, I mean;) And she(what the heck was her name?) looked better with that wig on! Snort! (how does one draw an emoticon for that?) You got the whole problem of this plot in a nutshell, Laura. (Karen) After she's been through this ordeal that brings her out, frees her from what is holding her back, she's really the same, actingwise, a nothing. Don't you just love the stunned looks on the faces of the casting people? What an audition! What a performance! We've got the next Meryl Streep here! Can she do accents? (Evelyn) Critics Choice has it...I got it for $5. About what it's worth. I'll probably have more to say after I watch it. I was going to mention the shower scenes but since the discussion is still taking the high road, I didn't want to pull it down yet. Arami has a good suggestion but how does one go about saving the discussions... other than copying and storing in a word processing program. See, I told you I was ignorant. I think adding a Film Discussion to the new site would be a hoot. Kind of like a Chicks on Flicks. (Sorry, there's already a site called that.)

(Evelyn) Michael broke character when he responds physically to her. He didn't follow through, because he was a rotten actor. (Heide) Let's not be too hard on Michael's acting skills There's another way to look at it: the dilemma an actor faces when real life interferes with his/her work. As gossip columns and celebrity biographies tell us stories of actors having affairs with their acting partners, on the surface it may be acceptable when the fictional characters are also supposed to fall in love ( one or two examples readily spring to mind...;-)). In this film, actor Michael allows the reality to cause a temporary collapse of the character of Ross - a character he obviously wasn t - cold, demanding, commanding, sinister. His falling for Jamie's charms (whatever they might be...) is the only indication that he, Michael, wasn't like Ross in real life. He involuntarily created a flaw in Ross's character, if you like. The mask has slipped. Does it mean he was a rotten actor? And what does it tell us of his "real" self - a vulnerable, lonely man or a sexual predator? How all this shaped his acting ability? It must have seemed a very interesting thread for an actor to play, but... as we have already said, the infuriating thing is that all this elaborate set-up in the first part of the film leads to absolutely nothing at all. The second half is botched in a criminal way. What a waste. BTW, I don't think Colin was showing his own embarrassement in that stupid scene on the rocks - it was Michael who was embarrassed and humiliated. Colin was definitely acting. I am convinced there's not one single moment in any of his films in which he isn't in character. If anyone suspects otherwise - that in my view only reinforces Colin Firth's triumph as an actor. (Evelyn) how does one go about saving the discussions... other than copying and storing in a word processing program. Exactly so. I'll try to do it with this discussion, but perhaps someone has already copied and saved some of our previous ones?

(Evelyn) He didn't follow through, because he was a rotten actor. What do you mean, Evelyn, by "he didn't follow through"? With what? Michael's Acting Ability I don't think I'm being too hard on Michael. I believe I only said he wasn't a "good or great actor" and "Perhaps, this is supposed to indicate why he hasn't made it in Hollywood, can't get parts." He is a young, struggling actor. Much like Jamie. According to the casting director: "He's a nobody...well, nobody special. He's done some off-off Broadway and some regional theater, a few commercials. No film experience as far as I know." Taking this part--to be Ross Talbot--is what young, struggling actors do. They dress up in bunny suits with balloons and deliver birthday wishes and they perform in murder mystery dinners. Being Ross Talbot is sort of like a murder mystery dinner. Or maybe its like being in one's birthday suit and delivering one's best wishes... ;-D Michael did not do well at his audition for Playmaker. "He seemed kinda nervous. He kept forgeting his lines and everything. I don't know. Like he was on drugs." His slip out of character may only be due to the rigors of having to be in character for more than 24 hours as you suggest, Heide, but it may also be his attraction for her--physically and emotionally. Despite what we think of Jennifer Rubin's looks, everyone has their *type*!!

(Arami) (Evelyn) how does one go about saving the discussions... other than copying and storing in a word processing program. Exactly so. I'll try to do it with this discussion, but perhaps someone has already copied and saved some of our previous ones Someone else said this...not me. Nothing I say is worth copying or storing. But I do think we have had some excellent comments on H, N, and AMITC. And even FP. (Karen) What do you mean, Evelyn, by "he didn't follow through"? With what? I mean he didn't follow through as an actor by remaining detached from the real Jamie. He allowed himself to revert to his real-life emotiona/physical feelings. And get out of character. But who knows...maybe Ross would have shagged her too. Anyway, I'm not crazy about the rock scene....but hey folks, that second shower scene was worth the five bucks I paid for the vid :-)))

I know we're discussing PM but #97 is so quiet that I think I'll post here. Just to say that Handmade's "Lock Stock etc" has made �3million in just over a week in the UK. I realise that in US box office terms this may sound very small, but for the UK this is an impressive return. "The Horse Whisperer" has made �2.6 million, and "The Avengers" has faded away at �2million. And these are hugely expensive movies. I don't know if this will have an impact on Handmade's financial crisis or rescue them from receivership. They only have 3 new movies on their books, "Lock Stock" and "Man with Rain", both with a budget of �1million each and SLOW,with a budget of �3.4million. It is not as though they're a huge movie production company borrowing hundreds of millions. Could "Lock,stock" bale them out? Back to PM! I'm afraid I've no intellectual contribution to make. I like his feet though!

(Bethan) I like his feet though! Fine. So tell us exactly why.

(Nan) he was definitely the first Russian (CherylE) Now how on earth could you possibly know a thing like that? Yes, none other. Because I am a true and genuine hockey fan, dear. Did you think I was kidding? Yes, the scarred men oozing testosterone help, but it's really the sport I love. And btw, I don't think any team in the NHL was ready for the Russian playing style in 1982 (well, maybe Edmonton)�so it wouldn't really have mattered where he ended up, I suppose. (bethan) My take on PM.......strictly B-movie-ish, but not as bad as Nan thinks! I stand by my verdict ;-) BTW, I don't think Colin was showing his own embarrassement in that stupid scene on the rocks - No rocks, no rocks! I beg of you�;-)

(Bethan) "Lock Stock" and "Man with Rain", both with a budget of �1million each and SLOW,with a budget of �3.4million. You once asked why the bank took over SLOW as collateral....probably because it's the most expensive film Handmade had....also it was not yet finished when they went into bankruptcy. Remember when Rubicon was going to take them over...SLOW was still progressing at glacial speed in post-production. But I am not despondent...I think we shall see it yet on the big screen.

While the rest of PM is not up to Colin's talent, I do enjoy watching him show his stuff with the two very different characterizations. I'm with Heide (I think it was with you,dear?) in that I prefer his looks as Michael, rather than Ross. I also enjoyed Michael's American accent. It seemed natural to me. I can't say the same about ATA. The MidWestern twang sounded forced to me and took me out of CF's portrayal as Jess. But I thought Michael's voice was right on. This is a very minor point, and I know Jamie was supposed to lack confidence, but what was up with the wardrobe they gave her to wear? The dresses with those vest things were not only ugly, they were quite unflattering on that particular actress. And even after Jamie was supposed to be confident and successsful, I could have done without that white crocheted skull cap at the end. I can't imagine anyone looking lovely in that. Sorry my post isn't very cerebral. Not feeling too clever today :-(. (Evelyn) that second shower scene was worth the five bucks I paid for the vid :-) The first one wasn't too bad either!

(Nan) don't think any team in the NHL was ready for the Russian playing style in 1982 True, but me and Harry Sindon (sp?) wanted him to go to Boston. ;-) Or Hartford. It would have been closer in style. And the Russian communities were less sleazy, and I had more friends (Russian and otherwise) in Boston than LA. (Karen)think it was necessary to go to such lengths to differentiate Michael from Ross? (the accent and the hair) Nope, but maybe that was for the audience (if we're stupid enough to be watching this movie...) On that topic, did anybody else get the agent and the bartender confused the first time around? They�re so similar in type. When Eddie comes in after shooting Michael, I thought he was the agent. . . (Arami)The second half is botched in a criminal way. What a waste. If it hadn't gone so far off track, it could have been "seriously flawed" instead of "goofy and ridiculous". (Arami) He involuntarily created a flaw in Ross's character, if you like. The mask has slipped. Does it mean he was a rotten actor? Exactly. It doesn�t. Just hard to hold onto Ross� character through all this for all this time. (bethan)isn't available on video. Reel.com--I got it used for cheap. (Evelyn)Ross would have shagged her too. I thought that was his primary pedagogical technique. (Heide)You mean the putting the hand in the garbage�? I think that wheelchair lesson had me more embarrassed than the rocks. It�s amazing what passes for an acting lesson. However, that�s an interesting thread, the pearls in the disposal. Why did Michael do that? If she got the $5000 by pawning the pearls (unlikely but what we�re led to believe), and he bought them back, then Michael threw his own money away. They both lost a lot. Ross couldn�t have planned the pearl thing since he didn�t know how she�d get the money. So then I wonder, what motivations of his own, as a failing actor, did Michael have in this shenan gan? Now that would have been interesting to see. Hmmmmm. Anybody for a PM knockoff? Maybe Nan will help with storyboards. ;-) The wheelchair thing was horrid. Too much S&M posing as a lesson in �not quite sure. Too many other topics rearing their ugly little heads for the scene to be about anything but S&M: her alcoholism, her hatred of herself, hatred of her looks �. You can just see the WD saying, oh, this�ll be visual, he�ll put this makeup on her, and then she�ll have it on while she�s taped into the wheelchair, and there�ll be this pool of wine �.blah, blah. It�s visual, but rootless and stupid. If the sc ne was about her learning to do anything to achieve her objective in a scene, we would have been happy when she succeeded. Instead we were embarrassed, because it wasn�t about anything we would want her to achieve. It wasn�t a worthy goal (an alcoholic needing a drink ); it was sexually degrading (yet another woman licking yet another floor); it wasn�t about learning to act better, it was about something the actress wanted in real life, and so on. (Karen) After she's been through this ordeal that brings her out, frees her from what is holding her back, she's really the same� (Heide)Don't you just love the stunned looks on the faces of the casting people� Can she do accents? LOL! They were stunned? So that�s what that was. I�ve seen theoretical mathematicians act better than those casting people :-) They were all sort of, "first day on the job as a used car salesperson." It seems to me it was fine for Michael as Ross to sleep with her, that he was supposed to, since that was a Ross thing to do. But Michael was the one who was overly upset the first time they woke up together, and Michael was leaking through when she said, "You�re not so tough after all." One reason I think he was supposed to sleep with her was that he had to set her up to be curious about the darkroom, to find the book with the pictures twice, and to conclude that her life was in danger. He followed he from bed that last time, and it would have been difficult to get the timing down if they hadn�t been in bed together. Basically, I ditto everything everybody says. But a fine acting exercise by C recorded for us that someone else paid for ;-) Some flicks have NO reason for existence.

(Jana)what was up with the wardrobe they gave her to wear? Oh yesssss, I forgot. I mean, it was low budget and everything, but Salvation Army would have better clothes than that. I vote for Michael in both guises. Each has his charm. If Michael had really been a Ross-like character, smelly scum, then I wouldn't care if he were Adonis (such a typical female, I am.) But that's what I like about C's Michael-as-Ross; there were moments that I did have sympathy for him even before I knew that he wasn't really Ross. When he was shot. A few other times, which were surprising, and totally thanks to C's work. And I can't really say I know much of Michael except at the very end, when he's walking toward her before he gets shot. I don't think the telephone call or the bar booth or the drive or the rocks count, in a way. He was a guy who needed a job. Most people, and especially actors, would have been just as jumpy. The drive and the rocks were in the harassment category, and people tend to react far more to men being sexually violated than women (how many male rapes can you think of, other than Deliverance and the prison movie with Morgan Freeman and Tim Robbins?) Although he did have a gun on him, I got a sense of him as a person, not a job hunter or an object of harassment, at the end. So I like Michael, but I don't know if I'd like him as much if I didn't know he had the capacity for his version of Ross.

(Jana) Michael's American accent. It seemed natural to me. I can't say the same about ATA. The MidWestern twang sounded forced to me... But I thought Michael's voice was right on. Definitely preferred this accent to ATA's. (Evelyn) that second shower scene was worth the five bucks I paid for the vid :-) (Jana) The first one wasn't too bad either! I'd have paid lots more to be the cameraman for the first shower scene. ;-D (Cheryle) If she got the $5000 by pawning the pearls (unlikely but what we�re led to believe) Very true. Would have gotten significantly less than a thousand for those. and he bought them back, then Michael threw his own money away. They both lost a lot. Ross couldn�t have planned the pearl thing since he didn�t know how she�d get the money. Not necessarily. Michael/Ross couldn't have planned it, but Eddie could have. Eddie set her up with Ross and it's likely that she discussed how she would pay for the session. Eddie knew her mannerisms from the ice chewing to the pearl twisting. The fact that she wore those pearls all the time (regardless of appropriate outfit) tells me that they are more than just an accessory. They have deeper meaning. Would a *man* pick up on this? Maybe not, but he is also a bartender and Jamie likes to drink. he has probably cried a lot over her life at the bar and Eddie has heard it all. One reason I think he was supposed to sleep with her was that he had to set her up to be curious about the darkroom...and to conclude that her life was in danger. He followed he from bed that last time, and it would have been difficult to get the timing down if they hadn�t been in bed together. I disagree on this one. Watched that part again yesterday to see if I could pinpoint when Michael turns back into Ross. As they are lying in bed and Michael is upset with himself over sleeping with her and she is pleased with herself for "being in control," he is still Michael. I think you hear it in his voice when he says "I only wanted you to think that." (or something to that effect) There's a desperation there. Definitely not a Ross-type thing. It was all scripted for her to go to the room twice. When he notices she has left the bed, he just turns over on his back and waits. He is relieved in a sense because now the plot is back on course and he becomes Ross again. Could this have been achieved without their being in bed (timing aspect). Sure, why not? She's totally under surveillance in her own bedroom. Michael vs.Ross Definitely Ross. The hair, ladies, the hair!! And the accent, but of course. :)

Cheryl, vi gavarit'e po russki? Davay gavarim i nikto nas nye budet' ponial!:-)

( Cheryle) The wheelchair thing was horrid. Too much S&M posing as a lesson in �not quite sure. I know it was a repulsive scene...but IMO logical in the story line. I saw it like a "initiation to a frat" or a "Marine boot-camp"....degrading, humiliating but necessary for the person (Ross) to absolutely control the other (Jamie) henceforth. He definitely was Ross here.

One of the few things I quite liked was that piano piece Ross persistently played on the piano.

(Cheryle) The wheelchair thing was horrid. Too much S&M posing as a lesson in �not quite sure. (Evelyn)..but IMO logical in the story line. I saw it like a "initiation to a frat" or a "Marine boot-camp"....degrading, humiliating but necessary for the person (Ross) to absolutely control the other (Jamie) henceforth. He definitely was Ross here. Cheryl you made some excellent points about using the wine as the bait. Very cruel for someone who likes to drink. But she's not an alcoholic I think, which would have made it criminally cruel IMO. Liked your analogy, Evelyn, about the initiation aspect. When you're breaking a person, you have to go to the nth degree, push them to their "so-called" limits to get beyond. The only way I can imagine Eddie coming up with all these little games is that the real Ross did them to his wife. BTW, I think Jamie looked better in clown face. :) Her normal look is v. Linda Evangelista to me. Let's talk PEARLS...that's what got me started (and interested in doing PM) when Cheryle posted her first dissection of the story.

(Karen) Let's talk PEARLS... That pearl scene, IMO, is CF's finest hour in this film.He starts slow...builds the crescendo and culminates when he grinds-up the pearls. BTW, when Ross is coming down the stairs to fix her breakfast.... does it remind you of the similar stair descent at Netherfield? Let's talk the ending of PM. Why does she kill the agent? (Not that he didn't deserve it) Did Jamie love Michael? Or did she love Ross?

(Evelyn)Why does she kill the agent? Well, she said what she wanted to get out of her time with Ross was to tell people not to **** with her, �or for people NOT to **** with her (forget which). His main activity seemed to be sticking his hand down her shirt. He was a prime candidate. And he has has her management contract for a year or two more, though he didn�t lift a finger to help her. (Karen) Being Ross Talbot is sort of like a murder mystery dinner. That�s stuck with me ever since you said it and it seems more and more the way I see it now ;-) Definitely preferred this accent to ATA's. Hands down. In ATA he reminded me v. much of...has anyone ever seen "Darien Lambert" (aka Dale Midkiff)of Star Trax "fame". Sci fi syndicated TV show, 3 or 4 seasons of episodes on cable stations. Dale looks similar to Darcy, with brown hair/eyes, but until 10 years into his career was one of the worst actors known to videotape. In the last season of Star Trax he got better, but he'll never make up for his version of Elvis in a made-for-tv movie controlled by Priscilla Presley, no less. I gues there was a whole lotta shakin goin on there. Anyway, what got left of C in ATA--accent, way he moves, etc., is eerily reminiscent of Dale at his best. Poor C. Maybe Dale got better in the past few years. Probably I�m the only person in the universe to relate these two. �she has probably cried a lot over her life at the bar and Eddie has heard it all. No doubt. I keep thinking Ross hired Michael because that was my first impression, but that doesn�t work out with the rest of the totally believable plot. I think you hear it in his voice when he says "I only wanted you to think that." That makes sense. But it wouldn�t have been the end of the world if "Ross" wasn�t supposed to have scruples. Or was it fear of messing up the murder mystery dinner theater? The hair, ladies, the hair!! Absolutely. With that hair, and how he moves in the Michael section he now reminds me of a better-looking Brad Dourif. I adore Brad and he�s one of the best actors in the world (Cuckoo�s Nest, Ragtime�more recently Mississippi Burning, episodes of Millennium and X Files, voice of Chucky the murderous doll in that movie series), but he doesn�t look like C. (Arami)Cheryl, vi gavarit'e po russki? Ach, it�s been sooo long, and was sooo tumultuous. I never wrote without Cyrillic letters�Ezvenetsia, pazhalsta�spaciba bolshoi� I�ll get back to you ;-) piano piece Ross persistently played on the piano. It was nice. I wonder if it�s in the music credits. Never watched the credits �after C dies, what�s the point? J (Karen) Let's talk PEARLS... (Evelyn)That pearl scene, IMO, is CF's finest hour in this film. He starts slow...builds the crescendo and culminates when he grinds-up the pearls. Tell me how far off I am, those of you more familiar with every single scene DB has done: I can�t think of many scenes where he is playing against just one woman in a well-crafted, balanced dramatic scene. The Darcy/Elizabeth scenes are beloved; JA knew those scenes would tell us what we want to know about a man. But nearly all of the other scenes that come to mind when I think of C are of him by himself (AMITC and waiting in the cab in TEP), or him in scenes with many people (in V, breakfast out oors when he urges Cecile�s mother not to marry her to Gercourt, many in H, etc.) In V, he�s often around lots of people. In AZ, he�s not in opposition to his mother, really (fault of the script), and there�s that homoerotic thing happening. CofF, his scene of paying off Nan is short. He doesn�t get a lot of Richard Burton/Elizabeth Taylor stuff, does he? (Karen) Did Jamie love Michael? Or did she love Ross? Did she love anybody? I missed that part. �But she's not an alcoholic I think,� Well, 1) she thinks she shouldn�t drink so much (big hint). 2) Eddie and friends tell her to lay off, and most bartenders don�t say that unless they think you have a problem (based on experience of my reformed alcoholic friends). Eddie tells her this early on, before his scheme. 3) The way she says to the cops (on the phone), I haven�t had a drink in two days! (or all week or whatever)�That�s alcoholic behavior, to be proud of a week without drinking. I do think it�s criminal, but if the pearls can be used for manipulation, why not her alcoholism. BTW, I must admit. The first time I saw PM I really didn�t know if the pearls would get ground up. I thought maybe "Ross" would pull them out later to jerk her around some more (the same way after she shoots him, I thought he would come to her house and we'd find out it was part of the exercise.) But I was kind of glad, in the context of the exercise, the pearls went. If you really want to change, all kinds of things have to go, and that's a good point to make. But I didn't care about them enough bec use I didn�t know I was supposed to until then. I don�t remember a single reference to her mother or the pearls before "Ross" serves them up. On second viewing I see all the hokey close-ups on the pearl twirling, but it still means nothing to me.

The pearls? Well I suppose Michael is playing Ross here at full crescendo - the ultimate sadistic manipulator. Good lesson, yes, but if I hadn't thought Ross was a psycho up to that point, I'd believe it now. Would Michael, as Ross, have turned on the garbage disposal if Jamie had gone in to retrieve the necklace? The big test and I think Michael would have failed. So what's your take on the pearls, Karen? We see Ross wearing glasses in a couple of scenes but never in front of Jamie. Is he Michael then? I know he's always Michael but is he not in character when he's studying her through the monitors? (Evelyn) Did Jamie love Michael? Or did she love Ross? Good question and of course I don't know the answer. I'd think it would have to be Ross. She doesn't know Michael at all unless she falls in love with him on the rocks. ;-) There is a semi-cute scene where we only see Ross after he's done with her makeup. Her back is to us and she's being rather playful with him, tweaking his nose and playfully slapping his face when he calls her "almost perfect". Maybe she was falling in love with him by then. (Karen) Her normal look is v. Linda Evangelista to me. That's it! I think Jamie is kind of pretty though but she's incredibly gawky - not graceful at all. (Evelyn) BTW, when Ross is coming down the stairs to fix her breakfast.... does it remind you of the similar stair descent at Netherfield? But he doesn't give a little hippy hop at the bottom! (Cheryl) I can�t think of many scenes where he is playing against just one woman in a well-crafted, balanced dramatic scene. I have to concede you're right. I thought about it and came up with a fair number such as Mrs. Keach/Birkin in the belfry and Paul Ashworth/Sarah during their fight after the stampede. There are others such as scenes in Master of the Moor and other roles less accessible to us but you've made me realize there aren't a lot of his movies where he plays a dramatic role against a woman.Too bad we have to count this movie as one of them. But if we count this then we have to count 1000 Acres too. I can't believe no one has talked about the shower scenes. Such serious girls we are.

Okay, Heide, you want shower scene. Here ya go: Well they coulda shown him FULL MONTY:-0

(Cheryle)....( Karen) Did Jamie love Michael? Or did she love Ross? I said that, not Karen. (Hate to lay my stupid questions on another person.....sorry, Karen) The reason I alluded to that is because at the end as she is leaning over the fence the voice-over (hers)..."I don't really do this kind of thing..but you remind me of someone...someone I once knew...someone who broke my heart". Then when I viewed it again, I realized those were the lines she was to say in the PM audition. Still, I had the feeling she cared for him in a bizarre sort of way.....(hell, the whole damn thing is bizarre) Motorcycle/ shower scenes. I know this was a low budget film...but does anyone think they used a double for these scenes.? Does CF ride a Harley...he looks the type.(Daring...risk-taker....vis-a vis RF) I know he must shower.....and.....oh -you-know-what-I-mean. I do think Ross had the whole thing scripted right to the end....at first he takes her car keys. Then after she kills Ross,she jumps in the jeep and guess what...the keys are in the ignition. Ross knew exactly what she was going to do. Someone inquired about the music Ross plays on the piano. The credits don't list it...must be original music by a Mark Snow. Anyone else like the scene when he's dancing with her? Sorta' sweet. Has he ever danced in any contemporary film? Mobetta American accent than ATA. LOL at Cheryle's comparison of Jess with the Elvis look-a-like actor. I've looked at this film four times since we started....enough already.

(Evelyn) BTW, when Ross is coming down the stairs to fix her breakfast.... does it remind you of the similar stair descent at Netherfield? I'm just going to have to take another look, but my VCR seems to be stuck on a scene a little earlier. ;-) Why does she kill the agent? (Not that he didn't deserve it) This has always bothered me and is just another indication of what a poor film this is. Granted the agent more than deserved it, but does Jamie think she will get away with this. Here she is--finally successful--this would be after she has made PM--and she throws it all away by killing her scummy agent. Have I missed something? Does the gun she uses have someone else's fingerprints on them? Can't be Eddie's gun? Cops won't believe he rose from the dead to do this one as well. Very dissatisfying end ng and totally unbelievable. Did Jamie love Michael? Or did she love Ross? Again, I find it unbelievable that she would love either. One roll in z'hay and another on z'rocks wouldn't do it, especially since in the latter he was doing it for a job. (Cheryle) He doesn�t get a lot of Richard Burton/Elizabeth Taylor stuff, does he? Taking it down one notch, wouldn't you love to see him in the Giancarlo Giannini role in Swept Away? I know terribly non-PC, but that film keeps popping up in my mind as being a great showcasing role for him. (I haven't seen it but it does strike me as possible that the Anne Heche/Harrison Ford movie might have been an updated version of Lina Wertmueller's classic.) 1) she thinks she shouldn�t drink so much (big hint). 2) Eddie and friends tell her to lay off, and most bartenders don�t say that unless they think you have a problem...3) The way she says to the cops (on the phone), I haven�t had a drink in two days! Good points, Cheryle. Missed those clues. A bartender definitely knows. (Evelyn) Has he ever danced in any contemporary film? There was Dutch Girls, but he's supposed to be a 17-year old in that one and very shy and awkward with the girls. It definitely shows in his slow dance with Romelia. He looks pretty good here. Wouldn't mind swaying to the music with Ross/Michael, no indeedy!! More later.

(Cheryle) On second viewing I see all the hokey close-ups on the pearl twirling, but it still means nothing to me. (Heide) So what's your take on the pearls, Karen? When Cheryle had first mentioned them in her plot outline post I was struck by the symbolism of the pearls. How perfectly they represented the Jamie that had to go for her to be successful as an actor. When you think about pearls, the image is always prim and proper, white gloves, 1950s and '60s graduation pictures in cashmere sweaters. Pearls look warm but are not. Pearls look hard but are not. They can be crushed. I thought about how pearls are created (not the simulated variety). An oyster gets i ritated (natural or cultured--makes no difference) and secretes nacre, which builds up around the foreign object. Jamie has years of another type of protective coating inhibiting her ability to express her emotions. Pearls are never perfect, except those of the simulated variety. They always have flaws. They can also lose their lustre--another component of value. (FYI, the other two are color and size.) The pearl twirling is very typical behavior. I don't know anybody with pearls of a decent length who doesn't play with them. One becomes very attached to them and likes the feel. What has this to do with Jamie, they become an unconscious extension of her. Very valid IMO. (Heide) We see Ross wearing glasses in a couple of scenes but never in front of Jamie. Is he Michael then? How about Michael trying to figure out what Ross would do? Needs help *seeing*? (major groaning, here) :-) she's being rather playful with him, tweaking his nose and playfully slapping his face when he calls her "almost perfect". Maybe she was falling in love with him by then. I remember that one two and it struck me as neither was acting at the time. Seemed way tooooo natural, like we got a peek of Colin. (I know, not possible.) (Evelyn) Hate to lay my stupid questions on another person.....sorry, Karen I'd be more than happy to claim your brilliant question, Evelyn!! ;-) someone...someone I once knew...someone who broke my heart". Maybe she meant Eddie. He really let her down and they did have a relationship of friend to friend (although it was apparent he was trying to make it something more and was rebuffed). A friend's betrayal could lead to a comment like that. I still can't believe she meant either Ross or Michael. No way!! Then when I viewed it again, I realized those were the lines she was to say in the PM audition. Missed that one. So now she's substituting lines from a movie for real life. I've seen that in another movie. Hmmm, which one???? This will kill me until I remember. ...but given that she and Michael were the Playmakers, very appropriate that she uses those lines. Wouldn't you say? Motorcycle/ shower scenes. I know this was a low budget film...but does anyone think they used a double for these scenes.? No way. Love my big new TV. See so much better with it.

(Heide) We see Ross wearing glasses in a couple of scenes but never in front of Jamie. Is he Michael then? I think he is Michael when he is wearing glasses. He wears them in the dark room at the beginning as he sees Jamie approaching the house. Then later in the dark room as he is developing photos. And then at the end when he is reclining on the bed (I like those feet too, Bethan....BIG). Apparently,Michael had a vision deficiency and Ross didn't. Re: Motorcycle/Shower Scenes..used doubles?? (Karen) No way. Gee, I'm glad. I'd hate to think he wasn't riding that motorcycle.....:-))))

Re: Pearls: Thank you Karen, for all the information on pearls....(CF films always lead us to inquire about other topics) Your take on the symbolism is v. logical. But I wonder if the screen writers saw that. I felt that the whole thing was sort of thrown together. BTW in the credits it says that "PM is based on a screenPLAY by blah, blah, blah, AND a Story by blah, blah,blah." How could so many writers come up with a film with so many holes???

Gee, I'm glad. I'd hate to think he wasn't riding that motorcycle.....:-)))) LOL!!! Keep going, ladies......you've really got into this discussion. I never realised PM could be so interesting! I still haven't got any intellectual comment to make. Am still focusing on those elegant (but big) feet!

you've really got into this discussion. I never realised PM could be so interesting Hey, by the time we finish people are going to wonder why it wasn't nominated for an Oscar.

(Evelyn) Hey, by the time we finish people are going to wonder why it wasn't nominated for an Oscar. Apparently,Michael had a vision deficiency and Ross didn't. LOLOLOL!! You're in fine form, Evelyn. But then this film inspires jokes. Karen, dear, leave it up to you to find the symbolism in the pearls. Not that I find fault with your reasoning - an extension of her. She's wearing those "lovely" sweater vests and long dresses (kind of cheap Laura Ashley) in the beginning. After she loses the pearls she's in that little black cocktail dress (not her choice, I know). She becomes quite chic in the end. S-t-r-e-t-c-i-n-g? I'd have to admit I am. After all, she's also quite rich and can afford better clothes. Like Evelyn, I don't think s ch symbolism would even register with the creators of this film. It does seem all thrown together. By the way, even though her clothing is quite awful in the beginning, she sure wears sexy underwear. Many women save theirs for special occasions. Did she want to make sure her stuff matched, just in case? ;-) There, Bethan, that's my intellectual contribution. Come and join us.

(Heide)The pearls?�have turned on the garbage disposal� I can see two scenarios. 1)Ross couldn�t have done it, he�d have been arrested. Rape you can get away with but human sausage-making is a no-no�Alternatively, 2)if he did, he could have claimed to the authorities it was an accident, and there�s no proof otherwise. I think our man would have made decision trees and flow charts and planned his options either way. We see Ross wearing glasses� I�d completely forgotten about the glasses in the control room! It does link them, I suppose, in the mind of the genius who wrote in the pearl-twirling as a significant gesture without making much of it. (As Karen says, playing with long pearls is such a common thing�that�s probably why I didn�t even notice it in a normal viewing.) But now I wonder: what was Michael doing when he wasn�t wearing glasses in the control room: stumbling around blind, or popping in his contacts quick like a bunny? Another hole. we have to count 1000 Acres too. Was there a scene with him at odds with either sister? Forgot. I can't believe no one has talked about the shower scenes. Such serious girls we are. Hard to add to what�s already been said, even though I haven�t read half of it. ;-) I thought I could barely see him bring his right hand down in a possible reflex reaction to, um, protect himself before leaving the glass bricks, and then drop it when he stalks out of the shower, camera tilting up. Orchestration with the cameraperson? I still have to go back and find the navigation coordinates (six blocks down, for blocks across...)I read on an old board (by Karen?) for a Loch Ness-type sighting. Stil one of the biggest laughs of my little life. (Karen)Okay, Heide, you want shower scene. Here ya go: All I have is a big empty space. Am I missing something again? :-( (Evelyn)� those were the lines she was to say in the PM audition. An acting class or another audition, I believe. Those lines were at the very beginning, before she drank so much she got sick and threw up and lay on the bathroom floor and thus found out about PM. (another AA alert I forgot). Still, I had the feeling she cared for him in a bizarre sort of way I could see it. For the Michael as Ross persona : most people want to be drawn out, to have somebody force them to reach into their depths because we�re too chicken to do it ourselves (#1 reason why actors like to act.)(And why S&M is more profitable than extreme sports or dieting.) Given that Michael/Ross wasn�t as slimy as Ross/Ross probably would have been, she could have cared for him until she thought he was going to kill her. Then, when Michael is killed and she kills Eddie and she has time to r flect on the past knowing that Michael was a pawn and she got him killed, �..well, they did share things, and there are few things as mystically attractive to me as a fab interlude that you can never have again. Motorcycle/ shower scenes. I know this was a low budget film...but does anyone think they used a double for these scenes.? I�d guess for part of the motorcycle scene, because the insurance on him for the film would have been less. But I remember thinking the same thing and there�s one rip-roaring shot where it had to be him (reminded me of him on a galloping horse :-). For the shower pas de deux, definitely. It really struck me the second time�their voices against unrealistic visuals. For some of her positions she would have had to be standing on a box, and the people in the shower don't move like our stars. But I guess that�s artistic license for ya. Colin wouldn't have done it, since with his professional stature he wouldn't have had to and we KNOW how much this flick meant to him. Someone inquired about the music Ross plays on the piano. The credits don't list it...must be original music by a Mark Snow. I missed the composer (can we give her a prize, Heide or Nan?), but I did discover that the only thing he plays is the ragtime/silent film type music to accompany the famous wheelchair scene. The piece I think we�re referring to is a theme (their theme) that gets repeated, and probably was original. Anyone else like the scene when he's dancing with her? Adored it. �Jess with the Elvis look-a-like actor. Never repeat never watch "My Life With Elvis." However, one day soon I�ll post some pictures of Dale and take a vote. You won�t be a able to judge how they move, which is really the main characteristic that�s similar, but why not. (Karen)Why does she kill the agent?� gun she uses have someone else's fingerprints on them? � I still think it�s because 1)the one thing she told Michael/Ross she wanted was to tell people not to **** with her any more. This she was telling the agent, when she said she didn�t need him. As she said, he was a liar and manipulator and rapist. 2) He had her under contract for 2 more years. She�s assuming his out-of-the way office ("small little man in a corner office", repeating his lie about why he "didn�t" know about PM auditions) is a safe place for a murder�she hasn�t returned his "300 calls", no one saw her come or go ("no secretary"). She was wearing lace gloves, which I assume protect one when one murders. The gun? I just think the whole thing, beginning with her stalking of Michael, was to show us that she had gotten her $5000 worth, that she would fight back and wasn�t mousy any more, knew what she wanted, knew what she was feeling, wouldn't stop at anything, don't trust (lessons 1,2,3,4, whatever). Agree, v. sloppy, but let�s assume she had a brilliant plan. Taking it down one notch, wouldn't you love to see him in the Giancarlo Giannini role in Swept Away? I know terribly non-PC, Oooooh, coooool! How would he/they do it? Who would he play against? It would be casting against type, CF as a glowering lower class cabana boy. You�d lose the whole political context Wertmuller soaked it in, so the conversations would have to change to keep Americans interested and to bring it up to date to keep it politico-sexual. Who should play against him? What a great little casting exercise for subway rides and other forced down time. Excellent notion. Can we get the rights? ;-) Aram , can this be our first project? No floor sweeping for you, my dear. We'll need all hands on deck for this one! symbolism of the pearls. How perfectly they represented the Jamie that had to go for her to be successful as an actor. �of her. Very valid IMO. How lovely! I agree with many comments below that if these filmmakers got anything right, it was probably an accident. But there are subconscious reasons why even stupid people think of things. I think yes, pearls are v. Old Jamie and a lesson to us all :-) (Evelyn)someone...someone I once knew...someone who broke my heart". (Karen) Maybe she meant Eddie. He really let her down and they did have a relationship of friend to friend (although it was apparent he was trying to make it something more and was rebuffed). A friend's betrayal could lead to a comment like that. I still can't believe she meant either Ross or Michael. No way!! I took it to mean that�s another reason why she killed (Secret)Agent Man. "I once knew (Eddie)� Blah blah broke my heart�" Or also it was an ignorant superficial attempt at circularity (start with these words, end with these words, see how far she�s come and nobody's ever gonna think twice about THIS movie, the director says to himself....). (Heide) We see Ross wearing glasses in a couple of scenes but never in front of Jamie. Is he Michael then? (Evelyn)��And then at the end when he is reclining on the bed � Really? Right before he goes down to threaten her with the knife? (Evelyn)Re: Motorcycle/Shower Scenes..used doubles?? (Karen) No way. (Evelyn) Gee, I'm glad. I'd hate to think he wasn't riding that motorcycle.....:-)))) Really...�I'm still worried about their insurance costs... (Evelyn)Thank you Karen, for all the information on pearls....(CF films always lead us to inquire about other topics) Thank goodness he doesn�t do chop socky or car chase movies...Actually, you could probably give us Colin's grocery list and license plate and we could make something of it. I know a funny story about this involving Truffaut(who was a critic before he was a director) and Hitchcock), but I don't need to tell it because we are in the process of doing that very thing ourselves ;-) (bethan)LOL!!! Keep going, ladies......you've really got into this discussion. I never realised PM could be so interesting! I still haven't got any intellectual comment to make. Am still focusing on those elegant (but big) feet! (Evelyn)Hey, by the time we finish people are going to wonder why it wasn't nominated for an Oscar. ROTFLOL! (Heide)Karen, dear, leave it up to you to find the symbolism in the pearls. Not that I find fault with your reasoning - an extension of her. She's wearing those "lovely" sweater vests and long dresses (kind of cheap Laura Ashley) in the beginning. After she loses the pearls she's in that little black cocktail dress (not her choice, I know). She becomes quite chic in the end. S-t-r-e-t-c-i-n-g? I'd have to admit I am. After all, she's also quite rich and can afford better clothes. Like Evelyn, I don't hink such symbolism would even register with the creators of this film. It does seem all thrown together. Is she rich? I thought she was broke, which is why the soap opera coma was paying the rent and she had to pawn her pearls to pay for the "coaching." The video box says "�down to her last dollar�" or something like that. But then these video boxes have pictures and scenes that don�t even exist in the movie�. By the way, even though her clothing is quite awful in the beginning, she sure wears sexy underwear. Many women save theirs for special occasions. Did she want to make sure her stuff matched, just in case? ;-) There, Bethan, that's my intellectual contribution. Way to go Heide! A glaring error! Totally absurd, that underwear with what we�re supposed to think about her.. Male director again. They just love that librarian-is-really-a-stripper idea.

OH NO! Italic hell!

(Evelyn) How could so many writers come up with a film with so many holes??? Sometimes that's the reason. You know the one about 'too many cooks...' ;-) Hey, by the time we finish people are going to wonder why it wasn't nominated for an Oscar. You mean it wasn't!! Coulda knocked me over with a feather! ;-o (Bethan) Am still focusing on those elegant (but big) feet! Always good to go with one's strengths, I always say. And you're so good at focusing on....things! :) (Heide) she sure wears sexy underwear. Many women save theirs for special occasions. Did she want to make sure her stuff matched, just in case? ;-) Too funny. And I thought we had noticed just about everything there was. ;-) Like Evelyn, I don't think such symbolism would even register with the creators of this film. It does seem all thrown together. Absolutely, I hope no one here think that the pearl symbolism was meant to be intentional. That's just what occurred to me and seemed totally appropriate to the character. Yeah, they probably stumbled into it. (Cheryle) For the shower pas de deux, definitely. (snip) Colin wouldn't have done it, since with his professional stature he wouldn't have had to and we KNOW how much this flick meant to him. So it's your opinion that Colin wouldn't do the second shower scene, but he did do the first one. He also stripped down on the rocks. How is the second shower scene any different? It's not like they actually showed him doing any hard core pornographic acts. Who should play against him? What a great little casting exercise for subway rides and other forced down time. Excellent notion. Can we get therights? ;-) Whoa honey!! I claim rights to be executive producer. Casting the Mariangela Melato role has been giving me nightmares. Rewatched the film last night as hadn't since it played in theaters, and found that it was more S&Mish than I remembered. Colin's "18-year" rants would work very well in the part. Of course the political commentary would have to be updated. Actually, you could probably give us Colin's grocery list and license plate and we could make something of it. I know a funny story about this involving Truffaut(who was a critic before he was a director) and Hitchcock), but I don't need to tell it because we are in the process of doing that very thing ourselves ;-) Don't worry, dearie, on this trashola movie, it's all in fun. BTW, do you have his grocery list? I'll take a crack at it later. ;-D

Arami, can this be our first project? No floor sweeping for you, my dear. We'll need all hands on deck for this one! Cheryl, have I been promoted now? Bless you! And let's go to it! (Karen) 'too many cooks...' ;-) Are you sure it's the right spelling? ;-)

(Karen) 'too many cooks...' ;-) (Arami) Are you sure it's the right spelling? ;-) LOL!

(Karen) 'too many cooks...' ;-) (Arami) Are you sure it's the right spelling? ;-) LOL! ] I don't get it.

(Karen) 'too many cooks...' ;-) (Arami) Are you sure it's the right spelling? ;-) LOL! ] I don't get it. Think "rooster", Laura. ;-)

(Karen)So it's your opinion that Colin wouldn't do the second shower scene, but he did do the first one. He also stripped down on the rocks. How is the second shower scene any different? It's not like they actually showed him doing any hard core pornographic acts. Most actors hate doing love scenes, and despise sex scenes. (Famously, even porn stars have to be high to begin.) Unless it's absolutely necessary for the shot (like in TEP when ?Katherine? gets into the tub with that homewrecker Baron), they get a body double. Same with insert shots (Michael/Ross's hand throwing the pearls into the disposal, which BTW was shot wrong--it's his left hand when it should be his right hand, and v. jarring. A production doesn�t waste an actor's time unless they�re idiots. The "closeup of hand throwing pearls into disposal" shot and the "closeup of finger on disposal button" might be, for example, somebody in wardrobe's hand. The bodies in the shower scene could be the two stand-ins for all we know. (Stand-ins, surprisingly enough, stand in for stars during the long hot tiresome process of setting up the lights for each shot. They should resemble the actor in height and coloring.) Bottom line is, you don't waste anybody�s energy when somebody further down the food chain could do it for you cheaper. Also, I don't know if it was a union picture, but the two squirming bodies could have been paid only as extras. It's possible we even saw them later, clothed, in the Callback Bar. If these two actors had spoken, and if it were a union picture (which it probably was), the extras would have been bumped up the pay scale to "day players", and gotten paid more. So the producer probably used two anonymous bodies they had already rented to go with two voices: Colin and Jenifer's Another thing to consider: I remember reading on these boards somewhere one of you quoting C on just this subject, something about "bums going up and down." :-) If anyone would invoke his right to a double, he would have. (Oh no. Sorry ladies! I just realized I might be disappointing people.) He had to come out of the first shower scene, to intimidate Jamie. Then he had to take it off on the rocks, because Michael is being humiliated. The nudity was necessary for the story (hey Nan, it could have been worse: a bad movie with NO extra C for your viewing pleasure ;-). I hope no one here think that the pearl symbolism was meant to be intentional. Geez, Karen, no time to be modest. I sent it to someone at Film Comment and he wants you to do freelance work! I claim rights to be executive producer. As well you should, you genius. That means you find the money? Does the saga of this production go on one of the existing boards or do we need another one ;-). Can I be one of the writers (non-credited is fine) and director? I'll look around to see if I can find the script so we can get started. BTW, do you have his grocery list? Me and my big mouth. All I'll say is, they need to be eating more fruits and vegetables. (Arami)Cheryl, have I been promoted now? Bless you! And let's go to it! I knew we could count on you! And hey, you're the one who wanted to do the floors. (You think we don't see that with broom, you have an excuse to go anywhere at any time. I'll bet you have a French maid's outfit too, knowing C's predilection for "foreign" women. ;-)) Speak to Boss Karen, but I hope you take another position. You can still wear the outfit. Are you sure it's the right spelling? ;-) LOL!!! I�m stealing your new and improved proverb. I�m sure this was the original form of it. ;-D

Knock, knock ... may I come in? I intended to go through your previous PM discussion first, but didn't get the time to do so -at least not through the whole thing, just the beginning - and as Evelyn pleased me so forceful to come over from #97 and join ... here I am. But I have to warn you, I'm not only ignorant of what you've posted till now, I even haven't re-watched PM before writing this ... and at that, as I'm 'foreign' it isn't too unlikely that there are always some details and nuances which may escape me, so, please don't regard my comments with a too critical eye. Oh, of course you can correct me, never mind another point of view, of course not, quite the contrary, I'd like to be put on the right way. All right, that's enough of that 'preface' stuff, let's get going! (CherylE) Michael would also have been through all these acting classes and exercises before, and because he isn't doing so well in the business could relish the role of the sadistic master instead of village idiot. Like your comments, Cheryl, but can't follow you there. The main problem I have with this movie, or more with it's plot, is, that it escapes me, how an actor with poor acting abilities - as Colin is introduced as Michael at the end - should be able to replace (i.e. to *act* like) someone who is so completely different to him for such a long time - OK, he takes some 'breaks' as e.g. in the scissors scene, but still, such a long time. And re. 'those acting classes and exercises': Ross Talbert, the 'r al' one, is described as a class of his own, sort of 'guru'. And I suppose Michael 'only' has studied at one 'out of the usual catalogue', otherwise he wouldn't have such difficulties to get casted. But I may be wrong with all this. Eddie might have given him *the* script, the one which enabled even a poor actor to act his (and the audience's) socks off. Seems not to be too likely from my point of view, after all, Eddie is 'only' the bartender (sorry, no offend to any bartender, they might be the best wri ers of all IRL) And for the 'relish the role of sadistic master' thing, I cant' imagine a Michael character to do this. I imagine him to feel ill at ease in the sadistic role, hardly able to disguise his indisposition from his audience. Don't forget, it isn't really theatre, because Jamie doesn't play a role there, Jamie is real and I think he must be aware of this from the beginning. But my point of view may be a bit a 'black and white' one. I do not know any actor personally, but they are sometim s said to be quite ... um, how can I put it ... don't find the right word ... different, unusual .. whatever .. . what I'm driving at is, that there might be a remote possibility that it really is the role of his lifetime. While thinking about this another thought occurs to me: All those psychological things Michael as Ross knows about Jamie - I could imagine the 'real' RT to be able to seize Jamie's weaknesses and problems at first sight. But I do have difficulties either to consider Michael being able to seize them in that way or - even more unlikely for me - to imagine Eddie giving him such a detailed and sensitive description/script, that enabled Michael to make such an apt analysis of Jamie's (here above all I'm thinki g about that pearl necklace/mother thing). (Heide) He had fooled me anyway. I think the one who fooled us is Colin, not Michael. Sorry, but I can't help feeling, that there is a gap in the plot, that is not to be closed by what they are giving us with that movie. (Laura) I think I definitely like this movie better whilst drunk. Great idea! I'll try that the next time 'll watch PM, perhaps it gives me the final clue. Break. ... got to get some wine before re-watching PM ...

I compliment you ladies for such an extensive discussion on perhaps my least favorite CF movie! Of course, we always welcome nude scenes. I would like to join the film crew too, maybe you need a European coordinator? How about it producer?

(Moon) I compliment you ladies for such an extensive discussion on perhaps my least favorite CF movie! Hey Moon, we didn't say it was our favorite. Most of us rank it way down there. But in any film discussion this gang really gives it their best shot. BTW thanks Kirsten for jumping it. You gave us lots of good analysis there. I shall let Cheryle answer your comments since you directed them to her. But this is what we want to hear from everyone. It doesn't have to be academic....or even complimentary in content. Most of us are amenable. And when we're not it's usually a cultural difference I find. With several countries represented there's bound to be differences of opinions which we respect. We do have Freedom of Speech...but it does not mean license to indulge in personal abuses or ridicule. So there....all you lurkers....let's heah' from youse!! (Aw shuddup,Evelyn)

(Cheryl) for a Loch Ness-type sighting When you or anyone else spots Nessie, tell Bethan and she will show you the secret *hand shake* known only to an elite few. ;-D Stand-ins, surprisingly enough, stand in for stars during the long hot tiresome process of setting up the lights for each shot. Very true. I've seen it when the crews have been around here on location. I've never seen a more boring and tedious process. He had to come out of the first shower scene, to intimidate Jamie. Intimidate??? Not the word I'd use. ;-) As well you should, you genius. Already sucking up! OK, you get to be director and will collaborate on the script. Was thinking (if Renate doesn't mind) of using Topic #85 to discuss the project. Will need an assistant (first things, first) capable of juggling more than two balls in the air simultaneously. I'm only capable of doing two. Strike that. Will honor long-standing Hollywood tradition and have two assistants. One to do the work and one to follow me around (will be total chauvinist and hire a male for latter role). Have dea for updating of story that will still anger most feminists, but will work. (Kirsten) (Knock, knock ... may I come in? Absolutely. We love to hear all sorts of opinions and other nonclassifiable stuff here. For someone who hasn't intently studied this classic of the silver screen, you've made some excellent observations. I imagine him to feel ill at ease in the sadistic role, hardly able to disguise his indisposition from his audience. Don't forget, it isn't really theatre, because Jamie doesn't play a role there, Jamie is real and I think he must be aware of this from the beginning. But Michael doesn't know that anyone is going to be killed. At the end, he is very surprised at that. For money, desperate people will do all sorts of things. We don't know how this was explained to Michael. It could have been explained as an elaborate joke on an old friend, an acting test for a very important part, who knows. He had a job and was given a detailed script and some general guidelines for how the scenario was likely to be played out. As an actor he would be fairly proficient in improv, so he should be able to respond to slight changes in the *script* (Kirsten) Sorry, but I can't help feeling, that there is a gap in the plot, that is not to be closed by what they are giving us with that movie. Jillions of gaps. Agreed. And a million mistakes, gaffes, etc. Love it when everyone finds more errors in this film. This could be quite a new game. Wrong hand shot, huh, Cheryl? (Moon) Of course, we always welcome nude scenes. ...with open arms. ;-) I would like to join the film crew too, maybe you need a European coordinator? How about it producer? Coordinator of what??? Hey, when has that ever mattered. We'll talk later on 85 when Colin's agent (that's you, Renate) gets him to sign on the dotted line. (Evelyn) Most of us rank it way down there. Way down there. But that should stop us from talking about it. Should it? ;-D (Aw shuddup,Evelyn) Who said that? ;-D

Okay, make way for the intellectual heavyweight.....I actually have something to contribute and (guess what!) it's about the second shower scene! Cheryl, you don't mean to say I've spent all those hours and hours and hours of close study...for a stand-in!!! No way, it is Him. My sixth sense tells me so. And it looks like him anyway, even through the fuzzy glass! A slight diversion from PM (but please all keep on track!). I've just watched part of the first episode of the miniseries of "The Shining" on TV....the role that Colin turned down. A sensible choice, I think. You just can't follow the movie..it's all been done. But, strangely, the actor who played Jack rather resembled (IMHO) CF as Michael. And isn't Pat Hingle in ATA? OK, back to those fuzzy glass panes..!!

OK, back to those fuzzy glass panes..!! A "stand-in" ?? What a job.....!!! Oh well...somebody's gotta do it :-))) I'm with you Bethan.....Hate to think the guy in the shower is not Ross!! Time to give the Navigation Coordinates for Shower Scene #2. " Loch Ness-Sighting."... LOLROF Are we gonna talk about feet?You're on Bethan... How about The Rock Scene for Monday.......

(Karen) Will need an assistant (first things, first) capable of juggling more than two balls in the air simultaneously. Groan! Sorry, sorry, I shouldn't have let my mind even go there but that's what this movie does to me. Great catch, Cheryl, with the right hand/left hand garbage disposal scene. Makes me almost want to re-watch though I'm waiting for Bethan's explicit instructions for the shower scene. Logically, I know you're right, Cheryl, but it's fun anyway. (Kirstin)for the 'relish the role of sadistic master' thing, I can't imagine a Michael character to do this. I imagine him to feel ill at ease in the sadistic role, hardly able to disguise his indisposition from his audience. I completely agree. True, he doesn't know anyone will be killed but he still has to play the role of someone easily interpreted as a sadist (from Eddie's point of view). Lesson #1, making her walk blindfolded through the house and letting her fall down the stairs. Lesson #2, threatening to grind her hand or her pearls in the disposal. Lesson #3, the make-up/wheelchair scene. I use this to bolster my contention that Michael can not be a lousy actor if he can make us believe he's Ross just some people n the film tell us he is. (Cheryl) Is she rich? I thought she was broke Sorry, must explain myself. I meant, when talking about Jamie's clothing, that she had money only at the end after she was an ACTRESS! and she started dressing better. It was a stupid point of mine though. I can't believe we've gotten so many good points out of this discussion though. Evelyn, you're doing a terrific job keeping us in line. The rocks scene next? Could be fun.

Hey just wondering... if there are any lurkers out there, why don't you come and post what you think about this discussion. It would be nice to get some fresh perspectives on what we are talking about. This is NOT an exclusive club at all!!!! Laura Trying to market the place:)

(Laura) if there are any lurkers out there, why don't you come and post what you think about this discussion. It would be nice to get some fresh perspectives on what we are talking about Do you mean "what you think about PM?" or "what (content) we are discussing?" If it's the latter..... Laura....that's known as" setting yourself up". I don't go for this "sensitivity workshop" stuff. We have had a good time discussing, or I should say "dissecting", this film....given it more time than it deserves.I am not going to hang out there and have lots of people tell me what a damn fool I am..... I know that

(Cheryl) I thought I could barely see him bring his right hand down in a possible reflex reaction to, um, protect himself before leaving the glass bricks, and then drop it when he stalks out of the shower, camera tilting up. Orchestration with the cameraperson? Cheryl dear, I must thank you for yet another excuse to watch that scene again. All in the cause of thorough film analysis, don't you know.

I've just re-watched PM and here's what striked me: The photo shooting at the beginning: Why had it been directed in that way, rather 'action like', with short cuts, all the flash lights and him thus shouting? Obviously to create some excitement, but in the rest of the movie they've produced the threatening, excitement producing moments in a more restrained way, rather with the choice of music than by the acting of the protagonists, or the way they've cut the scenes. First showering: Why is she surprised finding him in the shower? She must have heard the running water while approaching. (But, admittedly, I didn't catch, what she is saying while entering the bathroom) The 'shopping' story: It's her choice there, but why did she chose something that doesn't suit her? Wouldn't one usually take something correspondent to one's type, or to the type one wiches to be? But surely nothing to feel ill at ease with, no? (Heide) ... after he's done her make up ... she's been rather playful with him ... may be she was falling in love with him then. IMO her behviour there doesn't fit in with the rest. I'd say you show such gestures only to someone you know well, someone who's close to you. And I think that's not the case with J and M/R (Evelyn) Did Jamie love Michael? Or did she love Ross? Neither M nor R, I'd say. That's why: Jamie says after the thing with the wheelchair: 'I want to tell people to stop fucking with me.' and then - another contradiction in the movie - just after that she makesM/R to do exactly that. I can't imagine her doing is motivated by love. She asks him 'What do you want, Ross?', that implies to me, that she is only trying to please him, to answer his demands. And she's tempting him just in the moment, when she is realising that he's losing control (as she admits later on). She starts by saying 'Let's pl y.', i.e. act = pretend, and then, 'What are you feeling, Ross, you have to know, what you're feeling.' Why would she say that -exactly what he asked her to start lesson no.1 -, if not to show, that she's only 'playing a game', acting in a play, where now she's the master. Why is he always wearing different clothes , whereas she hasn't even brought one thing to change for the whole weekend? (CherylE) What was Michael doing, when he wasn't wearing his glasses in the control room ... stumbling around blind ... another hole. He doesn't only take off his glasses to play Ross. Even as Michael he isn't always wearing them - noticed, he doesn't wear the glasses on the rocks, but before, in the car. And for the stumbling: Not everyone wearing glasses is as blind without them as to be unable to trace his way (as I know well out of my own experience) So, not necessarily another hole:-) (Evelyn) Hey, by the time we finish, people are going to wonder why it wasn't nominated fo an Oscar. LOL!!! BTW, has qnybody ever tried to hide in a grand piano? As always with PM: more questions than answers.

(Karen) Will need an assistant (first things, first) capable of juggling more than two balls in the air simultaneously. (Heide)Groan! Sorry, sorry, I shouldn't have let my mind even go there but that's what this movie does to me. ROTFLMAO! She forgets that for once she won�t need more than two...;-) one to follow me around (will be total chauvinist and hire a male for latter role) Absolute boy toy, as is your right and obligation. But if he could spell well enough to get our lunch orders right, that would be a plus. when Colin's agent (that's you, Renate) gets him to sign on the dotted line. Well, we�re a virtual production company (Virtual Productions?); we�re getting virtual positions; maybe Renate could get a virtual contract? I bet she�ll have outrageous demands on his behalf, and I can�t wait to see them. Negotiate well for us, fearless leader! Pretend we�re also considering Rupert Graves or somebody else you fancy. (Moon Dreams)would like to join the film crew too, maybe you need a European coordinator? How about it producer? (Karen)Coordinator of what??? Oh, I�m sure we�ll need to shoot a great deal in Europe. How could it be Swept Away Revisited otherwise? But Moon, you don�t want to be stuck in an office doing paperwork. Go for European production manager, or if you don�t want to work that hard, work with the lighting or camera people(1st Assistant Director?). Then you�re always around for every shot. If you�re totally selfish, you could be in charge of hair and makeup ;-) But you�d have to be more professional than poor Bridget at her interview. Intimidate??? Not the word I'd use. ;-) Well, Jamie thought he was scary. If she�d known he was really Darcy, we might have had a worthwhile movie on our hands. (Karen) Logically, I know you're right, Cheryl, but it's fun anyway. (bethan) No way, it is Him. My sixth sense tells me so (heide)I'm waiting for Bethan's explicit instructions for the shower scene. I�m with Bethan�s sixth sense on this. If the world ran logically, there would be no movie business at all, and we would not know Him. Because there are movies, it is Him. (Moon) Of course, we always welcome nude scenes. (Karen)...with open arms. ;-) Quite open to them ;-). (Evelyn)How about The Rock Scene for Monday....... I probably won�t be online Monday, so I�m asking my question now. He really is good there, once you get over the fact that it�s Colin and we�d be on his side even if he had been the murderer. Do you think people who are not yet enamored of DB cringe as much as we do in reaction to that scene?. I know anyone with an IQ higher than her age would know it�s an implausible scene, but do you think they�re embarrassed for him? I think he wisely makes the character sympathetic, but wonder if anyone else has s ientific data on this�perhaps a drinking buddy�s reaction when you haven�t told them the ending yet? (Kirstin)for the 'relish the role of sadistic master' thing, I can't imagine a Michael character to do this. I imagine him to feel ill at ease in the sadistic role, hardly able to disguise his indisposition from his audience. (Karen)I completely agree. True, he doesn't know anyone will be killed but he still has to play the role of someone easily interpreted as a sadist (from Eddie's point of view). Lesson #1, making her walk blindfolded through the house and letting her fall down the stairs. Lesson #2, threatening to grind her hand or her pearls in the disposal. Lesson #3, the make-up/wheelchair scene. I use this to bolster my contention that Michael can not be a lousy actor if he can make us believe he's Ross just some peopl in the film tell us he is. Acting exercises get awful intense sometimes. All the questions and attitudes "Ross" has would be second nature to any actor who�s been taking classes for, say, one to two years, almost no matter what style of training (Meisner, Method, Hagen, etc.). It�s a little disconcerting to have someone flash a camera in your face and shout at you when you don�t know them, true. But the question, "What are you feeling?," for starters--he would have been asked that (put on the spot) as often as customers ask a wa ter to bring them things. If you�re in a scene, "you�ve got to know what you�re feeling"�to know how to know what you feel (as opposed to what you think, and be honest with yourself and with the scene); to broaden the range of things you can feel (we�re all blocked); to know how to convey your feelings in this context, and so on. People are forever shrieking and hitting each other and simulating sex and spitting on each other and ripping clothes and all sorts of things in exercises, scene st dies and rehearsals. Acting teachers (and directors) are generally imperious, so all Michael would really have to do, throughout the weekend, is ape what he�s seen. Tough to sustain it, true, and that�s one of the main stupidities of the film. But as Karen says, he isn�t necessarily a bad actor. He could have been bad in the audition because 1)Most actors audition badly, even great ones; 2)The casting people could have run the audition stupidly(happens 9 times out of 10); 3)he could have had a bad day 4)He�d just had a rather bizarre weekend and found himself attached to a woman he could never approach again. For starters. Lessons 1 and 3 could easily be standard things Ross has in his bag of tricks (maybewithout the wheelchair because of course he didn�t have it until Eddie made it necessary.) We�ve said we don�t believe the acoustics could have been good enough to trick her, but the content of the monologue (on first acquaintance) would work for most actors and could have been Ross� (bimbo wife told Eddie the gist of it, and Eddie�s heard this rap from everyone at his "Callback Bar"(get it?)). Or Michael and Eddie could have cooked up the exact content. Either way, the words and the difficulty of following the sound would have been engaging enough to have an actor not notice the questionable Doppler effects. I could really see falling down the stairs (trust and don�t trust) and makeup/you're beautiful (sans wheelchair) being standard routines, and Michael improv-ing (improvising) the rest. Everyone has enough buried rage. Guys are always better at acting that out than women *sigh*.

(Karen)But Michael doesn't know that anyone is going to be killed. Yes, but don't you think, it's quite tough to make her belief, she really has killed him? But it's perhaps all explained with Cheryl's interesting 'lesson' about acting classes. And, Karen, I absolutely agree, We don't know how this was explained to Michael. I think that's the main problem, they don't give us any background information, or very poor, that's why the plot is lacking coherence. Cheryl, did I really say Michael is a lousy actor? What I meant to say is, he is introduced to us as a poor one by stating, he's a nobody, only some off-off broadway stuff blabla, they want to make us believe it. But I think we can't really judge because we never see him acting, except as Ross. And that we can't finally judge because of the lacking background information. Therefore we can't judge whether it's only Colin acting as Ross or Michael. (Any sense?????)

( Kirsten) Cheryl, did I really say Michael is a lousy actor No, I did...about a week ago..initially . Any guy that can stand Jamie for three days and keep up the sadistic pace has to be better than I thought. (Kirsten) First showering: Why is she surprised finding him in the shower? She must have heard the running water while approaching. I thought she was surprised when he came out of the shower" in the full monty." But what I want to know is why does Ross appear while she is taking a shower. Then the camera goes to the glass blocks wall and when it comes back, Ross has suddently disappeared. Is there a R/M moment there.?(Without the glasses) Thanks for the rock scene question & analysis, Cheryle. It might be difficult for anyone to get on tomorrow. So we'll keep rock scene on for a few days.

I don't think Jamie loved Michael or Ross; Michael fell in love w/ Jamie.

(Karen) But what I want to know is why does Ross appear while she is taking a shower. Then the camera goes to the glass blocks wall and when it comes back, Ross has suddently disappeared. Is there a R/M moment there.?(Without the glasses) Good question - was that Ross or Michael? Ross because he wanted her to sense he was always watching her or Michael because he thinks she's just a terrific girl and he wants to ask her for a date ;-D ? As for the other shower scene, Ross leaves the room and five seconds later we hear the water and five seconds after that Jamie finds him already undressed, in the shower, and very wet. And I don't think the bathroom was that far away from the dining room or else that house has awfully thin walls. (Kirstin) BTW, has anybody ever tried to hide in a grand piano? And without making a sound too!! Also as an aside, if Michael was considered to be a 3rd-rate actor, maybe someone should have advised him to switch careers to music. How convenient that he could play the piano so well. (Karen) It might be difficult for anyone to get on tomorrow. So we'll keep rock scene on for a few days. Oh dear, I see what you mean. Well, if we can't get on the Internet tomorrow, blame it on the "bipartisan" judicial committee. (Hope that wasn't too controversial.)

I am re-posting Cheryle's rock scene question and comments..since she included it among other comments. And we said we would direct our comments on this scene today. Evelyn)How about The Rock Scene for Monday....... I probably won�t be online Monday, so I�m asking my question now. He really is good there, once you get over the fact that it�s Colin and we�d be on his side even if he had been the murderer. Do you think people who are not yet enamored of DB cringe as much as we do in reaction to that scene?. I know anyone with an IQ higher than her age would know it�s an implausible scene, but do you think they�re embarrassed for him? I think he wisely makes the character sympathetic, but wonder if anyone else has scien ific data on this �perhaps a drinking buddy�s reaction when you haven�t told them the ending yet?

( Cheryle) Do you think people who are not yet enamored of DB cringe as much as we do in reaction to that scene.......do you think they�re embarrassed for him? I thought about this while I was watching The President's video tape today. I am not a fan of Bill's.....but I was embarassed for him. I think this is an individual perception. I hate to see people humiliated...even those who brought it on themselves. Even if I was not an avid fan of CF (Colin for President!!). I would still cringe and dispise this scene. I know she is trying to get revenge, but I failed to see the logic of the scene in the story...except for a titillating effect. I agree that he puts on a terrific performance....but when the director asks him...."what do you feel, Michael"....I bet he didn't have to hesitate to feign embarassment.

(Cheryle) Oh, I�m sure we�ll need to shoot a great deal in Europe. How could it be Swept Away Revisited otherwise? But Moon, you don�t want to be stuck in an office doing paperwork. Go for European production manager, or if you don�t want to work that hard, work with the lighting or camera people(1st Assistant Director?). Then you�re always around for every shot. Thanks Cheryle, I would love to be 1st A.D. I never thought to be stuck in an office, c'est pas moi! And I speak several languages so I can be the trait d'union with the European crew. I am also v.v.g. with pampering actors. When will we start meeting and where? The rock scene was I imagine very humiliating to do. I remember reading that Colin made films he'd rather forget just to be in LA and close to his son Will. To think that he'd done Apt.O (which was so good), and then this!

Am going to catch up on the great discussion that's been going on over the past two days. Wow!! This is some great movie to generate such discussion...one would think. Hey, Swept Away Revisited doesn't have to be set in Europe. Had another location in mind.

Come now producer, we could all use a European working vacation. Swept Away was filmed in Sardinia and now with huricane George ravaging the Caribbean, where, could you possibly have in mind? We do want water right? The swim, the white shirt? The long hair? AHHH! The thought just drives me wild!

I'm taking the Swept Away II discussion over to Topic 85.

(Evelyn) I don't go for this "sensitivity workshop" stuff. (snip) I am not going to hang out there and have lots of people tell me what a damn fool I am.....I know that Am still rolling on the floor laughing at this one. People here must think I'm nuts. Evelyn, you are a stitch!! :-D (Evelyn) Time to give the Navigation Coordinates for Shower Scene #2. (Heide) I'm waiting for Bethan's explicit instructions for the shower scene. Hallelujah!! I've found them. Knew I had them around here somewhere. Bethan's step-by-step instructions may be found at Topic 59, Response 110. Here we go: ****** OK, I've got the house, computer, VCR all to myself, so here goes. Playmaker, second shower scene, let me talk you through it. And CONCENTRATE!! Ready..He's in the shower, first of all he's on the right, she's on the left. She turns back to the shower screen. He turns so he's on the left, she's on the right. Then HE's on the right, she's on the left. AND THEN.. (NOW REALLY CONCENTRATE HERE!! HE is in a crouching position but rises until his head is level with hers, kisses her, turns slightly and places his hand on her rear. At this precise mini-second, JUST BEFORE he turns (AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! don't look at the level of his face, look at the level of his, ermm, waist. Focus directly on the bottom row of full glass panels visible on your screen, third panel from your right. Just a very, very fleeting glimpse, but I see clearly, almost hard (!), evidence that he is rather enjoying the scene!!!! Now tell me I am seeing what I think I'm seeing?!! Demolish my fantasies if you can! And no, I don't have defective eyesight or an overactive imagination....:-) Nor do I have the one and only unexpurgated version of PM! ******** (Cheryl) I thought I could barely see him bring his right hand down in a possible reflex reaction to, um, protect himself before leaving the glass bricks (Jana) Cheryl dear, I must thank you for yet another excuse to watch that scene again. Agreed, although do I really need another excuse? I hadn't been concentrating on his hand during that scene. Was looking elsewhere. :-o (Kirsten) The photo shooting at the beginning...Obviously to create some excitement... This could be merely the first step in getting her disoriented, off-balance and confused. The shock of all those flashes, while being forced to eat, coming from every direction, with questions being thrown at you. In fact, I think I've seen flashing lights deployed in other movies during psychological torture scenes with prisoners. Was it in The Manchurian Candidate? I know it was in Noble House. Another thought is that he is making Jamie concentrate on what she is doing, eating, so that when she does act or audition she will ignore all that is going on around her. She has to focus. she hasn't even brought one thing to change for the whole weekend? Gaping script hole number 210!! No suitcase. Excellent catch, Kirsten. has anybody ever tried to hide in a grand piano? No, just behind the floor-length curtains (another movie convention) ;-D (Cheryl) Do you think people who are not yet enamored of DB cringe was much as we do in reaction to that scene? (snip) but do you think they're embarrassed for him? Phrased another way: If a different actor were playing the part, NO, I wouldn't even consider for a moment that the scene was embarrassing to do. Rather, I'd be embarrassed for myself that I was wasting my time watching this movie!! As I said earlier, I think the reason we feel so embarrassed for him is that Colin is showing that emotion so strongly and convincingly as Michael. While a struggling actor will go to great lengths to get a part, I'm beginning to wonder whether a man in that position would really be embarrassed. Is this another example of male writer/director with a double standard as, Cheryl, you mentioned earlier? After watching lots of men being interviewed on the news lately, I don't really think they would care about the circumstance! They'd go after it with gusto!! ;-D (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, Michael is a sensitive type and would care) Didn't you just think Jamie's hand curling up toward the camera's lens as Michael is ..um..er..doing ya know the corniest?! ;-D He could have been bad in the audition because...He'd just had a rather bizarre weekend and found himself attached to a woman he could never approach again. Now that's an interesting thought! He came out of the weekend emotionally scarred, whereas Jamie, who supposedly KILLED someone other than the corpse and couldn't get the police to believe her, comes out of it a stronger person. Bizarre is definitely the right word, not just for the weekend but for the character development. (Kirsten) but don't you think, it's quite tough to make her belief, she really has killed him? Sometimes it's hard to go back to one's first impressions, but didn't you think she had killed him when you watched the movie the first time? Jamie is very scared, off balance, shocked at what she has just seen and done, i.e., pull a trigger. Can any of us imagine having done that while pointing a gun at another person who has a big knife in his hand and is moving toward you in a threatening manner. She's operating on raw emotions. She isn't going to examine the corpse, check for a pulse. He looked de d to her and all she wants to do is get out. And get out fast. (Kirsten) Why is she surprised finding him in the shower? (Evelyn) I thought she was surprised when he came out of the shower "in the full monty." And that he just walked so nonchalantly passed her. (Evelyn) why does Ross appear while she is taking a shower...Is there another R/M moment there? Hmm. Now you've got me wondering. Ross would do it to keep her feeling off balance. Michael, well, we know why Michael would do it. Same reason as he kept the picture of her. Watched the scene again, staring intently at Colin's face. I'd say he definitely walks in as Ross. The expression is underlying menace intended to make her feel another presence in the room. To me, the question is whether it is Michael who leaves the room. Don't know. Still think it was Ross. (Heide)...because he thinks she's a terrific girl and he wants to ask her for a date ;-D? LOL!! Did you watch it again with another bottle of wine? ;-D (Laura) I don't think Jamie loved Michael or Ross; Michael fell in love w/ Jamie. I'm with you on this, but love might be too strong a word. He was drawn to her, interested, infatuated, etc. (Evelyn) I know she is trying to get revenge, but I failed to see the logic of the scene in the story...except for the titillating effect. Gaping script hole number 211. :-o There is no logic here. Revenge is what the the W/D has set up, but if Jamie had any sort of brain in her head wouldn't she wonder why Michael did it? She didn't know Michael from Adam. Why would he want to torture her? He had no motivation to do this on his own. A semi-intelligent person would have questioned Michael about WHO put him up to it. but when the director asks him..."what do you feel, Michael?" How about when Jamie asks the director "why am I doing this?" and the director answers "revenge." Does Jamie then say "revenge for what?" ;-) Re: Underwear Did you notice that it was a halter bra? She couldn't wear a halter bra with that dress. The straps would have shown. Also, her panties miraculously got sewn back together. She's wearing them again when she wakes up in bed after the motorcycle scene. Anyone catch the subject of the poster at Eddie's place when Jamie calls him up after returning from Ross's house of horrors? Lon Chaney. The Man of a Thousand Faces! Ugh! I don't believe it.

(Laura) I don't think Jamie loved Michael or Ross; Michael fell in love w/ Jamie. (Karen) I'm with you on this, but love might be too strong a word. He was drawn to her, interested, infatuated, etc. He's drawn to her alright...but it's Lust, my friends.....Michael liked that second shower scene.!!!

Re: photo shooting at the beginning, acting classes Well, girls, you really showed me what's what. Thanx:-) Seems that I'm pretty ignorant of acting/acting classes. (Karen) but didn't you think she had killed him when you watched the movie the first time? Oh sorry, Karen, seems that I'm not able to say what I think (at least not in English) Of course I did believe she shot him, as well as Jamie did (let apart that I knew he was not, because I read it in some review, but I'm sure I would have, if I had not known in advance). But Michael knew it was only a fake and did nothing to put Jamie at ease. And that's what I think is pretty tough. But, as we all said before, we know none of his motives and what was explained to him about Jamie so it's all pure specul tion and I'd rather put an end to it now, for my part. Re: Why is she surprised finding him in the shower?... (Evelyn) I thought she was surprised when he came out of the shower "in the full monty." (Karen) And that he just walked so nonchalantly passed her. I don't want to harp on that, but I still think she was surprised - or perhaps I should say embarrassed - even before he came out of the shower. But my feeling there was caused by what she said entering the bathroom, or more precisely by the way she said it, but as I admitted before, I wasn't able to catch what exactly she did say then, so I may be wrong there. (Evelyn) why does Ross appear while she is taking a shower...Is there another R/M moment there? I never was 'suspicious' there, but you made me think about it. But I'd stick to my first impression and say that it is a Ross moment (otherwise he would - perhaps - not have disappeared that quick, but only 'perhaps'). To my mind it's another way to intimidate her by making her feel observed and under control at all time and in all conditions. (Karen) ... her panties miraculously got sewn back together. LOL! Perhaps she had another 'shopping' in Ross's fund. Dear me, isn't it amazing what you can see in a film if only you look at it!?! (Not that we're uhm sort of ehmm obsessed ..................................) Ah, and Karen, thanx for putting in Bethan's comments on shower scene no.2. But - as I read it in the office, (oh well, I know I should not ...) - could you pleeeaaase tell me how on earth I now should manage to go back to work and concentrate ????? *Sigh* Thank you all the same, what better distraction one could wish for:-)))))

(Kirsten) But, as we all said before, we know none of his motives and what was explained to him about Jamie IMO Michael's motives were five thousand bucks....and Lust...... Not a bad combo when you think about it. :-)

(Kirsten) ...so it's all pure speculation and I'd rather put an end to it now, for my part. I don't want to harp on that That's fine, Kirsten. Please don't feel like you have to continue defending a point if you don't want to. Since I hadn't been on for a day or so, I had to throw in my two cents. If you don't buy it, you're in the majority!! ;-D

Hi everybody. Boy have I been gone too long? Thanks for the emain Evelyn. I have started school and so have the kids. So schedules have to be worked out, etc. I also have a new man in my life and you know how much space they can take up in your head.I would probably have been better off just sticking to drool than venturing out into the reality of dating in the 90's. I just can't believe how much discussion there's been here on PM. I guess it's time to watch it again, holding on to the remote to FF through the really s**ty parts. I think the movie really sucks but you all did give me food for thought..I think. I mean, to be perfectly honest the movie simply had no impact on me whatsoever. Except for totally turning me off to glass block! SO MUCH DISTORTION! I think (and I hope I can be perfectly honest with all of you and not be condemned as a total pervert) but the ock scene does have some redeaming qualities...LOL! But enough about my own personal lurid fantasies. Congratulations on a very in depth evaluation of a totally bad movie. We'll just go to any lenths for that man! Evelyn, you mentioned in your email that Valmont will be next? I'll be here, ready and willing to give it my best shot. I find it a WHOLE lot easier to watch than PM. It's good to be back among my fellow CF obsessives.

(Sofie) Evelyn, you mentioned in your email that Valmont will be next? I hope this will be the consensus....any other suggestions out there? We're so lucky to have Cheryle (if she can tear herself away from Fitzwilliam Films on #85) to give us the peripheral details of Valmont.

(Karen)If a different actor were playing the part, NO, I wouldn't even consider for a moment that the scene was embarrassing to do. Rather, I'd be embarrassed for myself that I was wasting my time watching this movie!! Exactly my thoughts. I think I would be more embarrassed to be watching it. Which makes me wonder if we haven't spent enough time on this. Though I will be checking out those shower blocks. Valmont seems to be picking up steam, Karen. What do you'all think? Does everyone who wants to participate have a copy? Speak now. Welcome back, Sofie. Glad there's still room in your head for our boy. Hope your new man is the understanding type.

I agree that we have really dissected this film. And most of us would have pressed the rewind button except for the star!! There was no salvation for this film...but CF did his best.

The best thing I can add about this film( and I use the term losely) is that no matter what we chose to discuss next....IT'S GONNA BE BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK by me. Should we start around Oct. 1?

I hope Yapp accepts this posting....I upgraded to Explorer 4.and could not post Pox on Bill Gates..... Cheryle, pl. give us a rough guideline for Valmont. Similar to the one that you did for PM. It really helped in our discussion.We can then take it by increments. (BTW do you realize we had over 100 postings on PM???)A whole wad on the shower scenes!!!

(Evelyn) A whole wad on the shower scenes!!! Help me, help me!! My mind is going to those bad places again. Quick, let's move on to Valmont. October 1 sounds ideal. Karen, any symbolism we should look for as we watch? (You know I love you.)

(Evelyn)pl. give us a rough guideline for Valmont. Similar to the one that you did for PM. It really helped in our discussion.We can then take it by increments. (BTW do you realize we had over 100 postings on PM???)A whole wad on the shower scenes!!! I'm glad it was helpful and not too nutty (as in "nuts and boltsy".):-) But ya'll know this stuff so well...Who would have thought 100 on PM? And I appreciate the job he did even more now than I did before. I call that time well spent. ;-) I was thinking about how to go about V. It might be clearer to talk about the movie just as it is, how it might have been done, etc. and then we can talk about what we know of Milos' and C's intentions, etc. To do them both at the same time might get messy. Opinions?

(Heide) Help me, help me!! My mind is going to those bad places again. You're at Drool, so how can it be going to *wrong* places? ;-) any symbolism we should look for as we watch? (You know I love you.) Hey, I don't do it on purpose!! It just pops out at me. hee hee I have no problem with a free-form Valmont. I've just gotten into the book and have read over the relevant sections from Forman's memoirs. Does anyone have that picture of Colin in bed with Meg and Milos and other sundry crew up on the a website somewhere? The book is a riot so far....

(Cheryl) It might be clearer to talk about the movie just as it is, how it might have been done, etc. and then we can talk about what we know of Milos' and C's intentions, etc. Perhaps that's best to encourage as many people to post as possible because everybody's opinion is valid. Hear that, everyone? I don't want the esoteric stuff we talk about make it seem as if we're an insulated cliquish group of nuts. Though I wouldn't want you or Karen (or anyone else who's done their homework) to keep your perspectives to yourself. Not that I think either of you are more nuts than the rest of us! ;-D

I love Valmont! This certainly has great possibilities with dear Cheryl's insights. Duals both physical, mental and musical are very big here. I look forward to a lively discussion. `a bientot!

My spelling goes out the window when I get excited. Of course I mean duel!

(Karen) Does anyone have that picture of Colin in bed with Meg and Milos and other sundry crew up on the a website somewhere? Try this web site for a whole series of Valmont press photos. Trust me, it's well worth the trip!. I'm sorry I don't know how to insert a link so will just have to type the web reference. http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/vpk01.html . Click on the "next" at the bottom of the page because there are seven or eight pages of photos. The particular picture you referred to Karen, is on the sixth page in the series at the following url: http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/studio1.html although my particular favorit is at http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/studio4.html ;-). Can you tell I had this one book marked? Enjoy!

Well look at that! This clever software made all those links for me. How accomodating...

Thanks Jana for the links. Will check it out and read up on how to do those image things (v.technical jargon) Just for you, Heide: As Valmont emerges from the pond, his hair takes on the appearance of an octopus. Does this indicate he is trying to reach out? ;-D

Congratulations to Karen and to Heidi, the new drool hostesses! We'll be getting you enabled soon. And thanks to Evelyn for helping with the transition!

WOO HOO!! CONGRATULATIONS Heide and Karen. And Karen on such a milestone:)

Thank you ...Heide and Karen...for being our new DROOL HOSTS. We appreciate your willingness to take us on. Promise to behave :-) And thanks to Evelyn for helping with the transition! All I did was call Terry...I live in Oklahoma and feel I can open the window and shout out to Terry down-the-road-a-piece in Austin, Texas!! I spent the weekend grappling with my upgraded browser Explorer 4.which Yapp would not accept. Called Nan (who else?)who suggested I download Netscape and now all is well:-)

Thank you Heide, Karen, Evelyn......and once again, Nan and Terry! I tend to assume that Drool will always be here without thinking of all the hard work necessary to maintain it. Look forward to Valmont! You can still buy (I think) Christopher Hampton's play (as performed in the theatre) "Les Liaisons Dangereuses" Published by Faber. ISBN 0-571-13724-5. �5.99

Thank you Heide and Karen. Yippee! We are no longer hostless :-)

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

It is indeed most kind of you. What a terrific duo! Thank you.

(Terry) We'll be getting you enabled soon. Wonder what *that* means!! ;-) [Have I been disabled all along? Hmmm] And thanks to Evelyn for helping with the transition! You guys have no idea what this woman did! She pushed both of us into this! I think Evelyn should run for President. She's the only person I know who could shake that town up and get something done. *big round of applause* :-) OK: Housekeeping The book that Evelyn mention, while out of print, is available via used book dealers. There are two sites that show copies available for minimal cost. This is a paperback. They do not reference by ISBN number, so go by publisher, date and translator if given (this edition is by P.K. somebody or other)--you will see. If you need additional info email me. The sites are: www.abebooks.com www.bibliofind.com I have seen the Hampton screenplay for the Frears movie and in the prologue he mentions the run to get it on the screen because of the Forman film. But not much else. Also, there is an PB edition of Lost Empires with Colin's picture on the back. The book was issued in conjunction with the Mobil Masterpiece Theater presentation of the miniseries. Again, it is available via used book dealers or shops. I found it that way. The edition of Lost Empires is by Vintage. I can can provide more info later. Thank you all for your good wishes. Hope we are up to the task of stepping into Nan's shoes.

Additional Book Info: Valmont, Penguin edition, translated by P.W.K. Stone. Must be published 1989. Lost Empires, Vintage edition (NY) 1987 or later. Since the ordering with these websites is done completely by regular email, you might want to verify the details with the bookseller before ordering. Happy hunting! :-)

Ooops, Valmont is listed under Dangerous Liaisons--its real name.

Hey, I got back from my vacation in Toronto to find a lot's been happening here! Congratulations, and a thousand thanks, to our new hosts, and best wishes for your work. :-)))

I'm jumping the gun a little bit. By posting VALMONT comments on the 29th, but I'll be away tomorrow. Someone posted this on RoP Virtual Views after I invited anyone who wanted to join our discussion to come over. I think it's pretty funny...and would seve aas an okay guideline... "Are you guys doing a discussion of the film, as in film-book comparison, film-play comparison,film-film comparison, bits-they left-out-of-the-translations comparisons,was-the-director-nuts stuff,why-did-they-mess-up-the-ending stuff,logistics-of- shooting-arrows-into-hot-turkeys stuff,whether-powder-blue-had- been-invented stuff, history-of-punting stuff? Or is this going to be pure Colin Adoration?" My answer to her is that "...we're goin' to do all of the above"... I hope the person does join us. And I hope people feel comfortable posting their comments.

cont'd I have only viewed half of the film this time around..IMO I found the cinematography brilliant. I am not familiar with photography,butI thought this was shot in a muted color- "ochre".Lent itself to the unpredictable undercurrent running through the plot . Cheryle would youpl. tell us of this photographic technique...if there was one? The music was memorable (Can Sir Neville Marriner do wrong? He also did Amadeus).The settings in France breathtaking. Costumes that rated the Oscar nomination which it received. This was a $35.M production ten years ago...no telling what it would be in 98$$$.

cont'd In Milos Forman's Memoirs he writes that he offered the role of M. de Merteuil to Michelle Pheiffer..she turned him down, and later signed up to play M. de Tourvel in the film Dangerous Liaison. The he cast Annette Bening in the role. He found it harder to cast Valmont...auditioned many American actors but the "accents didn't go with the gold embroidered waistcoats...and V. ingrained ine manners." He finally decided to cast an Englishman and chose CF. My question to him would be :why did he feel that an accent was necessary for the lead male and not for the others? Did anyone feel that M. de Mertueil sing-song inflections were distracting. The script too vernacular for the period.? More later on plot development... Memorable Colin scenes... ....was Andrew Davies inspired by the lake scene replete with wet shirt, bathtub scene, and fencing scene for P&P?

Wow!! A place to drool over Colin Firth. Amazing! I am a fairly new Colin Firth Obsessive. I must say it started with my first viewing of "Pride and Prejudice". I mean was that man Mr. Darcy or what! Rides a fine horse too! I haven't seen many of his movies, but did enjoy the discussion of the "Playstar" that you were discussing. I understand that he is a newlywed? Lucky guy, I guess. I have checked out the colinfirth.com page. Lots of information. And on one guy! I hope to be able to join in when I get up to speed with his movies. Tonight I will watch "Circle of Friends" and possibly tomorrow will be spent hopefully with "Valmont"! That is what you are going to currently discuss, no? Well I hope this is a long and lasting obsession, wouldn't want this to turn into a Hugh Grant thingy. (Yes, I used to adore him, but not anymore; please don't hold it against me)

One question that I hope we will answer is : Does Valmont love the Marquise? This of course should happen much later on, since his declaration comes at the end of the film. Which brings me to quote the Marquise, �More, I want more!�. It is certainly Annette�s movie as well and she is wonderful. How could Milos have possibly considered Michelle P. for the role? The casting of DL was horrendous IMO. My only casting question in V is Meg Tilly. And to think that Milos had wanted her to play Mozart�s wife in Amadeus baffles me as well. Amadeus was perfectly cast. Colin and the old matron who played his aunt were absolutely charming and quite funny too. I loved her lines. Cheryle was that a full wig he wore? When he is all wet I say yes, otherwise it seems that it could just be the pony tail. Valmont and C�cile were like two children. Valmont�s game was to seduce. C�cile�s to play the vestal virgin. In the end a switch takes place. C�cile is seduced and Valmont is ready to abandon seduction and proposes marriage to the Marquise. He loses then, as he lost in the dueling game he played with C�cile at his aunt�s estate. More later.

(Moon) The casting of DL was horrendous IMO. Did you think so , Moon? It's portrayed so differently. Glen Close is vicious .(nominated for Oscar for role,,,so was DLas a film)..I looked at it yesterday.Uma Thurman was Cecile, and Keanu Reeves Darceny!!It's an entirely different film, IMO My only casting question in V is Meg Tilly. Again IMO I thought MT was v. good in the part...prudish,plain.Michelle Pheiffer in DL plays it with more glamor...not as naive as MT.

Welcome, Audrey. Remember to check all the CF discussion boards, there are several, some with straight, some with oblique references ;-)

Welcome Audrey. Always nice to have new people join us. Great comments, Moon. I agree, let's wait to discuss the big question about who Valmont loves? Is it the M de M or is it M de Tourvel? Need to refresh my memory on Valmont so any comments (fav scenes, dialogue, etc.) will have to wait for a couple of days. Then I'm sure we'll be rolling along.

There's so much to discuss in this film (Colin? Colin who?) and Evelyn and Moon have gotten the ball rolling. I join in welcoming you Annette and hope you'll stay awhile. Beware though, the more you get involved here, the harder it is to break away. First stab - I will just take my impressions from simply the film for now - no extraneous information yet garnered from the book, Milos's book, Cheryl's information or even Dangerous Liaisons. I have some observations and questions which might help provoke discussion. Cast is terrific except for Annette Bening. We differ here, Moon. I had no problem with the American accents and actually prefer that they all didn't put on unnatural, posh accents. Still, Annette's breathy and as Evelyn says "sing song" voice is terribly annoying. She had a tough role and perhaps would have been stronger if she could have made the audience feel some understanding or sympathy for her character. Or is that going completely against Laclos's intention? Does Valmont have intentions of seducing Madame de Tourvel before Madame de Merteuil comes into the picture? From the lake scene, one sees he is being very playful, enjoying teasing her. Would he be willing to leave it at that if MM had not pushed him into the bet? Yes, we know he is a snake and perhaps would be satisified seducing her without an audience. Then again, in a later scene when MT is being mocked at the dinner table by the more worldly guests, he takes up her defense or at least deflects t e attention from her. Is he defending her or is this just a ploy in his quest to seduce her? MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all of Paris know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? In dinner scene at Madame de Rosamunde's, what the heck is MM nibbling on from her fork? Very suggestive. Does Madame de Volanges mistrust MM? We see glimmers of it: when Cecile is missing when MV unexpectedly returns from the opera, she returns to confront MM; she looks less than confident at the wedding of her daughter. MT has heard from "a friend" about Valmont's reputation. Is that friend MM? I believe Valmont suspects that. He looks non too pleased (and very good throughout the movie when he must wear that pout). Even after scenes when I assume he does love MT, he is very cruel to her. If you agree, why is he thus? After his first night with MT, he asks her when her husband comes home. I thought that was rather cruel to remind her of her infidelity. In his letter to her he urges her to find another lover as if she has now joined the ranks of women who casually take lovers. Does anyone know what Valmont says to his aunt before he leaves for Paris? He is whispering to her and MM is annoyed she doesn't know what he's saying and Aunt pretends to be deaf. Am I correct in making out the last words as "Trust me."? When MT returns to Valmont and they make love, her wedding ring is very prominently shown on her finger. Intentional? We know she planned on leaving him, giving him a taste of his own medicine. Is the ring meant to show she has no plans of leaving her husband which is the only way she would accept Valmont for a lover. Is Valmont a better human being than MM? A resounding "YES!" Why? Because he can apologize. MM tells Danceny apologizing is not her style. Valmont, very dejected at being thrown over by MT tries to make up with MM. He sounds truly contrite when he apologizes for sending D. to challenge her. Agree with Evelyn whole heartedly about the cinematography, sets and costumes. Very opulent production. (Moon) Valmont and C�cile were like two children Agree, Moon. Almost like brother and sister. I think of their dueling game and their very lively dance. C�cile is seduced and Valmont is ready to abandon seduction and proposes marriage to the Marquise. I think he performed his obligation and moved on to more worthy opponents. I'll save my comments on love and MM and love and MT after others have a chance to comment. Next?

MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all ofParis know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? I have not gotten my book yet, but in the film Valmont gives Dalceny all of MM letters when he is dying and tells D . to circulate them around Paris. In the closing scene MM goes to the opera and the audience looks up at her and boos! Her punishment. Heide, it was me, not Moon that objected to the vernacular American accents, and script using 20th Century vocabulary. But that is IMO.

Sorry, I mean't to say that in the film ,Dangerous Liaisons, when Valmont is dying he gives the blood-stained letters to Dalceny..... Welcome Audrey. View the film and pl give us your comments. And welcome back Gi...we have missed you. And have a good trip Kirsten...perhaps I'll run into you in London, I shall be there after the 10th for three weeks :-))

Oops, sorry Audrey. Guess I have Annette on the brain. (Evelyn) Heide, it was me, not Moon that objected to the vernacular American accents, and script using 20th Century vocabulary. Actually, what I meant to say in my rather stilted paragraph is where I differ with Moon is in our opinion of Annette Bening. But I think I may be prejudiced against her because of the thorougly unlikeable character she plays - in which case she does an excellent job of making you hate her. We will miss two highly vocal, thoughtful posters when Evelyn and Kirsten are travelling. Have a wonderful time!

Welcome, Audrey! (Heide) Still, Annette's breathy and as Evelyn says "sing song" voice is terribly annoying. You take the words out of my mouth. I find her way of speaking so distracting that I rather watch the German dubbed version. But I think I may be prejudiced against her because of the thorougly unlikeable character she plays - in which case she does an excellent job of making you hate her. But we are not supposed to hate her for her speaking manners, are we?! :-p Which she uses, if I remember right, mainly when trying to be seducing: to Cecile and to Valmont. ??? I may be wrong - have to see it again. It's just too obvious and unnatural, IMO, she could also wear a tag "Look what a great seductress I am". I prefer the "less is more - acting school". Though, I am looking forward to the discussion. Just a thought: This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity.

( Heide), Cast is terrific except for Annette Bening. We differ here, Moon. I had no problem with the American accents and actually prefer that they all didn't put on unnatural, posh accents. Still, Annette's breathy and as Evelyn says "sing song" voice is terribly annoying. She had a tough role and perhaps would have been stronger if she could have made the audience feel some understanding or sympathy for her character. Or is that going completely against Laclos's intention? I still preferred it GC�s. Annette was coquettish and very feminine (flirty eyes and all). I could understand why V would be v. taken by her, even after his many conquests. Meg T. I would have replaced by Sophie Marceau. Does Valmont have intentions of seducing Madame de Tourvel before Madame de Merteuil comes into the picture? YES! He is the seducer, it is a game to him. And at the dinner table the game continues. To charm is to seduce, with or without an audience. MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all of Paris know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? He wouldn�t need to, MM would take care of informing their Aristocratic acquaintances. In dinner scene at Madame de Rosamunde's, what the heck is MM nibbling on from her fork? Very suggestive. What a tease! I thought it to be a slice of a pear. Does Madame de Volanges mistrust MM? We see glimmers of it: when Cecile is missing when MV unexpectedly returns from the opera, she returns to confront MM; she looks less than confident at the wedding of her daughter. Bien sur! MT has heard from "a friend" about Valmont's reputation. Is that friend MM? I believe Valmont suspects that. He looks non too pleased (and very good throughout the movie when he must wear that pout). I think that to be a safe bet. V always looks good. What about those smiles? Even after scenes when I assume he does love MT, he is very cruel to her. If you agree, why is he thus? After his first night with MT, he asks her when her husband comes home. I thought that was rather cruel to remind her of her infidelity. In his letter to her he urges her to find another lover as if she has now joined the ranks of women who casually take lovers. He is taken by her, but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. She may eventually accept him as a lover because that seems to be the thing to do. Showing the wedding ring was one way of letting us know. She had written a letter to her husband but then we see him still at home. There is no explanation for this. Does anyone know what Valmont says to his aunt before he leaves for Paris?Ma ch�re tante, excusez-moi, mais je dois all� � la salle de bain�� Paris. Is Valmont a better human being than MM? A resounding "YES!" Absolutely. We are led to believe that there was something between the two of them in the past when she says � still love you, you know.� I believe that he loves her. At this point, he realizes that the game of seduction has gone too far, he wants to end it perhaps with the only woman that might have left him first? That would be the perfect end. MM of course challenges him instead when she shows him the Chevalier in her bed. Why would he strike her if he didn�t love her. C�cile was no longer innocent, why should the Chevalier be? The irony is that V is challenged to a duel for 1. C�cile�s seduction and 2. His slapping MM. Since MM started the whole bloody business to begin with. It is she alone who is responsible for V�s death. Little did she know V�s will to live had died in her house at that moment. More later.

This is cool!!

Hmm spoke too soon, apparently. :-(

One more time (fingers crossed, which makes typing difficult.)

Yo Ho! Lovely job, Karen!!! And welcome back, thought you disappeared there for a while!!! I love the movie Valmont, I especially love the costumes and the music!!! Old Auntie was very funny. But everytime CF is on that screen my heart would just melt!!! Oh at the Opera when he meets Cecile for the first time. I could be putty in those deep chocolate brown eyes! And the grin, beatific yes, but oh what a smile!!!

Hmmm... Thanks for the welcomes!!! Okay, saw circle of friends. He was okay. I mean I don't htnk i liked the mustache. tonight is valmont!! will be able to post I htink on monday. you guys get so into it and i don't think i'd add antyhing insightful at all. i like him because i find him to be acreidt and ccredible actor. I wish I could type better!

(Moon)V always looks good. What about those smiles? (Laura) And the grin, beatific yes, but oh what a smile!!! You know, that's why I like this film. He smiles throughout...big wide happy smiles. (Almost worth putting up with AB.) Karen...so proud of you. Does help in a discussion to get an image occasionally. Any smiley ones around?

Yum, I think I can really sink my teeth into this discussion. Great insights and great photos! Karen, you sly thing. Lovely! Any other delectible photos out there for others to share? (Renate) This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Yes, I agree he is a big boy in this film and comparing making love to sport is quite accurate, IMO. If you think that Valmont is not passionate, would you say that he is incapable of love? Which brings us to the interesting debate of love for MM or love for MT or both or none. Anyone ready to tackle that yet? (Moon on MT) He is taken by her, but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. (Moon on MM) I believe that he loves her. Moon's put her toe first in the water here. This should be an interesting debate. (Moon) She had written a letter to her husband but then we see him still at home. There is no explanation for this. Agreed, at least not from the film. I would guess, without looking at other sources, that he has either returned home despite the letter or she has asked him to return him, probably throwing herself at his feet. No MM she. Thanks, Moon, for letting us know what Valmont has whispered to his aunt. How do you know this and will you provide a translation? I can only make out the first phrase. Frankly, I'm disappointed. I was hoping he was giving his aunt an inkling of MM's treachery. (Moon) The irony is that V is challenged to a duel for 1. C�cile�s seduction and 2. His slapping MM. Very good example. Drove me nuts. The real instigator of all this unhappiness gets away scot free, almost. Of course MM's comeuppance is more visually realized in DL. Here it appears that MM's punishment is just her realization that she has lost the only man worthy of her. (Moon) It is she alone who is responsible for V�s death. Little did she know V�s will to live had died in her house at that moment. Did it here? My impression is that he lost his will when he found MT had returned to her husband. He wasn't ready to admit this yet and instead went to MM thinking that he could reclaim happiness by collecting on his bet. I think this is an important point that was brought up by Moon about Valmont losing his "will to live". Do you think the DL film conveys this better or do you prefer the subtlety of Valmont? In the duel scene, Valmont looks relieved (and very, very enticing - I love him in this scene) as if now he can finally pay for the hurt he's caused. (Laura) And the grin, beatific yes, but oh what a smile!!! (Moon) I think that to be a safe bet. V always looks good. What about those smiles? (Evelyn) You know, that's why I like this film. He smiles throughout...big wide happy smiles. Sounds unanimous. Frankly, though, I was a bit put off the very first time I saw this which was (I think) the first film of Colin's I watched after P&P. I guess it was because he never smiled in P&P. Those teeth were all I could focus on but now I love that smile very much.

Oh, but he did smile in P&P - once. How could you miss it?

(Heide)Which brings us to the interesting debate of love for MM or love for MT or both or none. Anyone ready to tackle that yet? The foreword to my book has a Harry Levin from Harvard saying: "The real game is between these two accomplices , and their complicity turns in a mutually destructive campaign in the perennial battle of the sexes. He is much the simpler character: a dandy, a Don Juan, cold-blooded enough about women but head-over-heels in love with himself, aach amorous success on the scoreboard of male vanity. She is less a coquette than a femme fatale ....a self-professed Delilah , with a vengence of hate to wreak on the opposite sex" We don't have to accept this perspective, but I thought it interesting. I saw her really hating men as a genre...enjoyed injuring them...even Valmont.Obviously, she only loved herself too.

Arami Re: smiles " Oh, but he did smile in P&P - once. How could you miss it?" Yup, my favorite P&P pic. It's my desktop wallpaper and each time I log on I see the both of them...smiling, happy.. and she has that precious little hand on his thigh...(sigh) (sigh)

Jana had mentioned that was her *favorite* ;-)

Karen, lovely pictures, *sigh*. (Renate) This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Seduction is a game that he plays very well. (Heide), Thanks, Moon, for letting us know what Valmont has whispered to his aunt. How do you know this and will you provide a translation? My dear aunt, please excuse me but I must go to the bathroom�in Paris. (heehee) (Heide), My impression is that he lost his will when he found MT had returned to her husband. V was perhaps hurt at the thought that if MT was back with her husband, well then, he hadn�t done such a good job of seducing her (by making her fall completely in love with him). (Heide), He wasn't ready to admit this yet and instead went to MM thinking that he could reclaim happiness by collecting on his bet. He went to MM to brag about his success with MT. They did have a bet after all. He won the bet�he won the game. (Heide), Do you think the DL film conveys this better or do you prefer the subtlety of Valmont? Valmont without a doubt. DL is a disaster, too Hollywood. The Academy Awards are a big popularity contest. Cheryle, where are you?

During the film when the above seduction is taking place, did you notice the film gets very grainy on that close up? I wonder if Milos filmed it as a wider shot but then changed his mind and had to zoom in and re-film directly from the film. Cheryle, can you answer this?

Hi folks, just got back. I sprained my ankle and am only now returning to the world. Lots to catch up on both here and at work, so I'll be back on the air asap. Good to see your start :-)

(Karen) Jana had mentioned that was her *favorite* ;-) Karen, how can I ever thank you? And it's so big, too ;-)! (Moon) During the film when the above seduction is taking place, did you notice the film gets very grainy on that close up? Interesting observation. I'll check that out on my next viewing. I watched this film on the Bravo channel a little while ago (I have it on tape but get a cheap thrill watching CF in real time). Bravo doesn't show anything R rated, but they also don't cut films. So in this scene they just zoomed in really tight on Colin's face until his huge blurry head filled up the screen and you couldn't see the rest of the ahem, action. Very odd! Next time I stick to watching my tape :-) Welcome Audrey. Glad you came to play

A fun fact I learned about a month ago: did you know that PAL tapes run almost 5% faster than NTSC tapes and the films themselves? Recently I read an article in the Director's Guild Magazine by an editor who discovered this. After preparing, shooting, editing, and promoting a film, most directors leave it to their editors to check the film transfers to tape (if they worry about it at all. I'm sure it wasn't a concern on PM ;-).) Usually they're checking to see that the colors are ok. The NTSCs are r n before the PALs over here, so editors and directors assume that once a transfer is done, it's done. Au contraire! This guy happened to see a PAL version of his film, and nearly cried. It was a drama and it was almost comical. All the editing seemed a little off. He then looked at a ton of other PALs, and found the sad truth. The feeling was very different. Our PALs are seeing a slightly different film than the rest of us.

Our PALs are seeing a slightly different film than the rest of us. And that would be the whole world except North America. :-) I wonder what happens to PAL films when they are converted to NTSC? But, I wonder, did he really watch them on a PAL system? I once watched an NTSC version of Apartment Zero on my PAL vcr, and it, erhm, worked somehow. Only it was bw and the voices were a bit darker. But I have seen a lot of films which were originally NTSC, and they were not likewise mutilated. So there must be a way to make a proper translation. I have recently got an NTSC enabled PAL vcr, so I can check both versions. Will let you know what I find out. Just curious: has any of you guys ever put a PAL tape into your NTSC-only recorder? If I remember correctly, the main difference is that PAL has 24 frames per second, and NTSC 25.

I have a PAL/ NTSC VCR and view both without a problem. I'm afraid I can't answer your question. Jana, I taped V from Bravo too. Let me know what you think. I hope you are feeling better now Cheryle. Look forward to your many observations.

Hope you're feeling better, Cheryle....we've missed you. Glad you're back :-)) (Renate) Just a thought: This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. It was interesting to see this interpretation by Milos Forman.For CF plays Valmont as a "bonhomie with a big libido" rather than a despicable predator.My question to Cheryle (when you have time) : Did you get any knowledge of how CF personally interpreted the character of Valmont.? Did he and MF see "eye -to -eye ? MMy question

I seemed to me that so much happened at once that V lost his will to live his plot to bring Cecile and Chevalier together failed, then he found Chevalier in MM's bed. MT went back to her husband. I think he really loved MM but when she took such delight in showing him that she had seduced Chev. he really saw how corrupt she was. In the end when Chev was in the balcony laughing with the girls, the look MM gave him made me think that she is going to make him pay dearly for killing V. I liked Valmont much better than DL. He wasn't so blatently evil and cruel as JM was in DL, he was more like a big spoiled boy playing the game of seduction I got the impression at the cemetary that MT might be carrying his child too, did anyone else think this.

I'm going to try to catch up here without being repetitious, and BTW I do have the book cover scanned but need our Spring Administrators to give me access to load it. Sorry. (Evelyn) My question to him would be: why did he feel that an accent was necessary for the lead male and not for the others? Very true, Evelyn. He didn't feel the same way in casting other period films like Amadeus. Perhaps there was something in the character of Valmont that he didn't feel would be believable with an American accent. Not that any of us aren't glad he did cast CF, although if he hadn't then don't you wonder what might have happened with his career, i.e., the major disappointment of V, his years in exile with MT, etc., but that probably belongs on another topic!! Maybe it was just the "voice." A voice like that could seduce anyone. Did anyone feel that M. de Mertueil sing-song inflections were distracting. Maybe I just like AB too much in this and her other roles, but I didn't find her voice to be distracting. That's just how she is. ....was Andrew Davies inspired by the lake scene replete with wet shirt, bathtub scene, and fencing scene for P&P? Also, musn't forget the pinkie ring twirling. ;-) (Moon) It is certainly Annette�s movie as well and she is wonderful. Totally agreed here. My only casting question in V is Meg Tilly. I liked Meg Tilly in the role and can see why she was cast. (Wasn't Agnes of God before this?) She has that look of piety and innocence that are required for MTourvel. In his first letter to MM in the book, Valmont describes her as : "you know her piety, her conjugal devotion, her austere principles." They argue over the "inexpressiveness" of her face, which V defends as being due to purity of heart, i.e., nothing as yet has touched it. the old matron who played his aunt were absolutely charming and quite funny too. Took me a while to place her. Wasn't she also Mabel Leighton in the Jewel in the Crown? Valmont�s game was to seduce. C�cile�s to play the vestal virgin. Well, C�cile was a virgin until..., but she's more than interested in finding out all there is to know about love, marriage, sex, etc., and believes herself in love with Danceny. She's very excited to be getting married initially (pre-Danceny). Do you mean that she's to play that part for Gercourt? When I think of Valmont, I find I cannot help but think of the film Ridicule, as another excellent illustration of society at that time. These titled, upper class people were idle. They had nothing to do but play games. If not seduction and affairs, then it was wordplay. Valmont and MM had roles in society. Both of them were notorious for their sexual escapades, although it is apparent from Madame de Volanges' trust of MM that MM was better able to conceal her true nature or maybe that MM (as a relat on) was better able to convince her otherwise. He loses then, as he lost in the dueling game he played with C�cile at his aunt�s estate. Ooooh!! My kind of foreshadowing. Brilliant observation, Moon, of the final duel. (Evelyn) Glen Close is vicious. (Heide) [AB] had a tough role and perhaps would have been stronger if she could have made the audience feel some understanding or sympathy for her character. The character of MM is vicious from page 1. She instigates the whole thing. Her motives are nothing but vengeful. We don't see AB's full-blown demasking until V's proposal scene near the end, which I think is good. We're not sure up to this point of her true character, just as we haven't been entirely sure of Valmont. Both come out then. (Heide) Does Valmont have intentions of seducing Madame de Tourvel before Madame de Merteuil comes into the picture? Yes, he's been working on her for some time. She represents a major challenge for him. The ultimate in the unattainable. He's also feeling a little old/bored at this point (mid-life crisis, perhaps), in a rut, same-old same-old, and she's his little red Porsche. ;-) Would he be willing to leave it at that if MM had not pushed him into the bet? Doubt it. I think it all depends on how many people knew. He had told her about his latest seduction target or love (depending on how you view it). If he gave up, what would it do to his reputation? All these people did was gossip about one another. Which brings me back to M de Vol. How could she trust MM? Was MM so discreet that no rumor about her exploits and her affair with Gercourt ever reached the ears of M de Vol? in a later scene when MT is being mocked at the dinner table by the more worldly guests, he takes up her defense or at least deflects the attention from her. Is he defending her or is this just a ploy in his quest to seduce her? Definitely ploy. Total act. He's been trying to show MT that he isn't anything like the reputation he has throughout Paris, and she's halfway believing him. Naive little simp. MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all of Paris know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? MM would make sure everyone knew. She would probably have started spreading the rumor at the wedding ceremony itself had not the other events transpired. Does Madame de Volanges mistrust MM?...she looks less than confident at the wedding of her daughter. I don't think so, which I find rather hard to accept. M de Vol is well-aware of Valmont's reputation and she corresponds with MT (in the book) and tells her unequivocally what he is. But at the same time, she doesn't appear to believe the same of her own cousin, MM. Was all her information on Valmont from MM? That might explain the one-sidedness. However, by the end, she knows (remember the scene in Cecile's bedroom) that her daughter has been with Valmont and that a duel was fought over that point o honor. MT has heard from "a friend" about Valmont's reputation. Is that friend MM? I believe Valmont suspects that. He looks none too pleased In the book, it is M de Vol who keeps warning her. Also, he is more interested in finding out who has been maligning him than anything else, including refuting the information. Even after scenes when I assume he does love MT, he is very cruel to her. If you agree, why is he thus? I do believe that he found himself really in love with MT. First it was an attraction that became the most tempting challenge he had had for some time. He could see there was far more within her than anyone else could see. (a smoldering passionate fire, perhaps, that was wasted on her husband) Anyway, Valmont like many men are uncomfortable when feelings of real love confront them. Being cruel, running away, driving off that person who has or can have power over you is their first reaction. Denial, ure and simple. It also would better his reputation - that he tossed her aside like an old rag. How would it look for the great lover Valmont to have fallen hopelessly in love? People might laugh at him. Is Valmont a better human being than MM?...He sounds truly contrite when he apologizes for sending D. to challenge her. Well, I don't know about better....;-) but he is definitely not as cruel as she is. MM looks very contrite at V's funeral and at Cecile's wedding. She looks totally broken. Is it heart-felt? Is she sorry she drove Valmont over the edge with that little scene in her salon? Who knows. However, I didn't see Colin's Valmont as being cruelly sadistic as AB's MM was. It was a game for him and her only way of life. Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. (Moon) Valmont and C�cile were like two children (Heide) I think of their dueling game and their very lively dance. That parlor dance. Look at the expressions on MT's face. Is she interested or what? (Renate) This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Interesting observation. Seducers come in all flavors. There are your suave debonair types and your cute as a button puppy dog types. Colin's Valmont is smooth alright, but he's a cutie with dogged persistence and humor. (Moon) I still preferred it GC�s. Annette was coquettish and very feminine (flirty eyes and all). I could understand why V would be v. taken by her, even after his many conquests. But is he taken with her or has he resigned himself to hooking up with her because of their true natures. Two of a kind. It wouldn't be right to pursue MT seriously when he was a scoundrel at heart. He wouldn't have to be or try to be anything other than himself with MM. Who better than your best friend and confidante? Keep thinking about the lawyer-shark jokes: professional courtesy! He is taken by her [MT], but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. I still think he's in denial that he actually has those feelings. I think he's positively crushed when she leaves him that night. He sits there drinking wine and thinking about what has happened and what he should do. Just the way their love-making is photographed, all that whirling around and tenderness (her tears) I think is Forman's way of showing us that it is for real on both their parts. Real emotions are on display. She had written a letter to her husband but then we see him still at home. There is no explanation for this. Good catch, Moon. Hole in script. (and we thought only PM had them) We are led to believe that there was something between the two of them in the past when she says � still love you, you know.� At the beginning of the book, MM solicits Valmont's help with the Cecile seduction because he too has something against Gercourt. Apparently, Valmont was a having an affair with another woman, while MM was having hers with Gercourt. Then Gercourt dumped MM and took up with the woman Valmont was seeing. It was at that point that MM and Valmont had their affair, but I haven't gotten to the point where they break up and why. (Laura) Oh at the Opera when he meets Cecile for the first time. I could be putty in those deep chocolate brown eyes! And the grin, beatific yes, but oh what a smile!!! Yes, yes, yes. He gives such great looks when he's around Cecile. There's also the one when MM and Cecile arrive in the carriage and MM says, "Look who I've brought with me." Roll those eyes!! (Heide) My impression is that he lost his will when he found MT had returned to her husband. Yes, I think it occured then. He had put her up on a pedestal and really did not think her capable of being another one of those society ladies who kept lovers. When she came to him, he would have thought that she was desperately in love with him and had already left her husband (the letter she had written after the first time) and would take whatever crumbs he would throw her way. He wasn't ready to admit this yet and instead went to MM thinking that he could reclaim happiness by collecting on his bet. I think we're talking about two different scenes. Isn't Moon referring to the second night with MT? He goes to MM's and proposes to her mainly out of resignation to his own fate that birds of a feather should flock together. Her cruelty to him at that point is just the capper. (Evelyn) I saw her really hating men as a genre...enjoyed injuring them When she played games, she definitely wanted to be on top! Seriously, though, I did sense a sadistic quality in her nature. She said she had been married and was a widow. (Evelyn, do you want to speculate on that?) Perhaps, her husband cheated on her and now she was going to take it out on all men. How else to account for the level of vengefulness we see in her. She has to be in control at all times. For CF plays Valmont as a "bonhomie with a big libido" rather than a despicable predator. And that's why we sympathize with him and come out so virulently against MM. She's cruel and despicable. He's a cuddly guy who is v.good with women. Can he help it that he didn't have to work for a living and spent all his time seducing women? (OK, now I'm turning into a Valmont apologist in addition to being a Darcy apologist.) My only quibble on casting is Sian Phillips as Cecile's mother. She could be playing MM's mother more credibly. Will watch DL tonight. Wish I were further along in the book to be able to determine who is being more true to it. Although Forman acknowledged in his book:"I was intrigued enough to reread the book, but when I did so, I discovered a strange thing: Hampton had been as faithful to the original as you can be when you condense a long novel into a play. He had gotten all the facts right and had captured the spirit of the book. It was my memory that had been playing tricks on me."No ice though he said "as faithful...as you can be." ;-) So there is still room for discussion, especially when one takes a play and another director (Frears) does his own interpretative thing.

(Evelyn) I saw her really hating men as a genre... Perhaps, her husband cheated on her and now she was going to take it out on all men. . She has to be in control at all time I don't know whether her husband cheated on her...but she was livid when Gercourt cut out on her for Cecile. And at one point she tells Valmont: "Want to know why I never remarried...because I didn't want to take orders". Vindictive and in absolute control..all the time. I would have liked to have seen a more sensuous actress take this role ....Sharon Stone, Demi Moore (except she can't act ) I am intrigued with whoever said that M. Torvel looked as if she was carrying Valmont's child...that was not mentioned in the book. But Milos Forman took a lot of liberties.

Geez, Karen, you could've written your own novel with that lengthy discussion on Valmont. I think THIS movie shoulda won the oscar not Playmaker:)

I can't disparage Dangerous Liaisons because I think it was a fine film, excellently cast (for the most part) and beautifully filmed. My favorite scene is when Valmont keeps saying, "It is beyond my control" to MM as she pleads for him to take her back. Curious to see if that is in the book. I do quibble with DL's intensely vicious portrayal of MM. Isn't she supposed to be likeable to the unaware? Bening's portrayal is the complete opposite - so candy sweet, she's as obviously evil as GC. Now CF's Valm nt. Well.... Ladies, by whom would you rather be seduced? Oops, sorry, trying to show the proper decorum. (Karen) My only quibble on casting is Sian Phillips as Cecile's mother. She could be playing MM's mother more credibly. LOL!! Though I'd have to say she beats Swoosie Kurtz by a mile. (And I like SK.) (MT's possible mistrust of MM) However, by the end, she knows (remember the scene in Cecile's bedroom) that her daughter has been with Valmont and that a duel was fought over that point of honor. You bring up an interesting point unrelated to the above - the whole town would surely know of the duel (illegal as they may have been at the time). How do you think the purpose was explained and if Cecile was supposed to be the cause, wouldn't Gercourt start to wonder if his little honey was still pure and unadulterated? Perhaps the book will tell. Comparing Valmont to MM: how about Valmont had a conscience, MM did not. (Evelyn) And at one point she tells Valmont: "Want to know why I never remarried...because I didn't want to take orders". Sums her up pretty well. Perhaps her husband cheated, surely she cheated on him. She tells Valmont he sounds like a husband. About the worst thing she could call him?

Just to say that I am very impressed, as always, with the perceptive and interesting discussions which CF's movies stimulate! Your comments are much appreciated and enjoyed. I'm a reader, rather than a contributor at the moment.

(Karen), Well, C�cile was a virgin until..., but she's more than interested in finding out all there is to know about love, marriage, sex, etc., and believes herself in love with Danceny. She's very excited to be getting married initially (pre-Danceny). Do you mean that she's to play that part for Gercourt? Not play the part, she would have been a virgin on her wedding night had it not been for MM inciting V to play his seduction game with her. We don't see AB's full-blown demasking until V's proposal scene near the end, which I think is good. We're not sure up to this point of her true character, just as we haven't been entirely sure of Valmont. Both come out then. Yes, and wasn�t that brilliant! Which brings me back to M de Vol. How could she trust MM? Was MM so discreet that no rumor about her exploits and her affair with Gercourt ever reached the ears of M de Vol? Yes, otherwise, MdV would not have let MM be so close to C�cile. M de Vol is well-aware of Valmont's reputation and she corresponds with MT (in the book) and tells her unequivocally what he is. MT�s house in Paris is small servants lacking etc. which makes me think her social position is much lower than MdV. Why would she constantly correspond with her? In the movie we are led to believe that it is MM who warns MT of his reputation. It�s a much stronger scene this way. How MT ended up visiting with V�s aunt is something that might be said in the book, Karen? However, by the end, she knows (remember the scene in Cecile's bedroom) that her daughter has been with Valmont and that a duel was fought over that point of honor. Not exactly. Let�s not forget the other reason for the duel , which one may dare say the reason: V hit MM. Paris society would accept this as a reason and C�cile would still be the innocent virgin for G. I don�t think G would have married her otherwise. Valmont like many men are uncomfortable when feelings of real love confront them. Being cruel, running away, driving off that person who has or can have power over you is their first reaction. Denial, pure and simple. Of course MT made it easy for him by staying with her husband. But, if V loved her, why leave the flowers at all. Wouldn�t he be angry with her? Or is he so vindictive as to want her to see the flowers and think that he loves her and she blew it? How would it look for the great lover Valmont to have fallen hopelessly in love? People might laugh at him. Well, he did propose to MM, and, she did laugh at him! Is it heart-felt? Is she sorry she drove Valmont over the edge with that little scene in her salon? Is it heart-felt? Is she sorry she drove Valmont over the edge with that little scene in her salon? Probably, they were two of a kind. He had gone to her in all earnest. Had they married, they both might have become better persons. Just a thought. Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. What does the book say Karen? Just the way their love-making is photographed, all that whirling around and tenderness (her tears) I think is Forman's way of showing us that it is for real on both their parts. Real emotions are on display. The streets outside are a big mess and quite confusing to get around. Just like V�s relationship with MT. It was at that point that MM and Valmont had their affair, but I haven't gotten to the point where they break up and why. Let us know. Isn't Moon referring to the second night with MT? Yes, I was. I did sense a sadistic quality in her nature. But not as much as Glenn C. Perhaps, her husband cheated on her and now she was going to take it out on all men. How else to account for the level of vengefulness we see in her. She has to be in control at all times. Perhaps, she was very happy with her husband and after his death she was seduced by someone who turned out to be a real jerk. That could have been her turning point, that would explain the reason for her need to be in control at all times and not controlled by anyone.

Interesting that in Valmont the film, there seems to be no connection between MT and MV at all. I see from the book (and I'm just in the beginning) that MV apparently had a hand in arranging MT's marriage. Which explains why, as Karen mentioned earlier, it is MV who writes to MT to warn her of of his character. I believe though that the film wants us to think it is MM who is writing to MT, hence no thread shown between MT and MV in the film. Another ploy Forman used to show MM's devious nature? I agre with Moon that it is a stronger scene using MM as the device. (Moon) Of course MT made it easy for him by staying with her husband. But, if V loved her, why leave the flowers at all. Wouldn�t he be angry with her? Or is he so vindictive as to want her to see the flowers and think that he loves her and she blew it? He has no reason to be angry with her. She did to him what he has done to countless others. To me, leaving the flowers is a sign of surrender and of love. He knows he's lost her. He's telling her she's won. She's not the kind of woman though who would have considered this as a victory. (Karen) I think we're talking about two different scenes No, actually I was referring to the last scene of Valmont with MM. He thinks he is finally going to collect on his bet as she leads him toward the bedroom only to fling the doors open to reveal poor, clumsy Danceny.

(Heide),To me, leaving the flowers is a sign of surrender and of love. He knows he's lost her. He's telling her she's won. She's not the kind of woman though who would have considered this as a victory. OK, I'll buy that. But Heide, V comes to collect on his bet when MM is taking a bath, remember? She gets on the bed with legs open and he can't bare to do anything.

(Moon) Not play the part, she would have been a virgin on her wedding night had it not been for MM inciting V to play his seduction game with her. I saw Cecile as being very eager. She may have gotten Danceny to do more than just leave her notes in the harp with or without MM's intervention. How MT ended up visiting with V�s aunt is something that might be said in the book, Karen? I'll take another look toward the beginning, but I don't think it says anything. Well, he did propose to MM, and, she did laugh at him! But that was private. The other type was all of society laughing at him. Ridicule. Perhaps, she was very happy with her husband and after his death she was seduced by someone who turned out to be a real jerk. That could have been her turning point, that would explain the reason for her need to be in control at all times and not controlled by anyone. That issue of *control* makes me think MM married young and since we all know she's an extremely intelligent woman, couldn't stand an inferior husband telling her what to do and with whom. I'd say total disillusionment with marriage. (Heide),To me, leaving the flowers is a sign of surrender and of love. He knows he's lost her. He's telling her she's won. She's not the kind of woman though who would have considered this as a victory. Another thought. I just saw something (TV or movie, can't remember) where a woman berated her boyfriend/fiance for not coming after her. Valmont left the flowers to show her that he came after her. That he had changed and he really wanted her. Not just as a lover, but perhaps more.

(Moon) But Heide, V comes to collect on his bet when MM is taking a bath, remember? Yes and I'm sorry for not explaining myself very well. I know the bath scene is when he comes to collect his bet. The second scene that I'm referring to, it appears to Valmont that he is going to bed MM, therefore collecting on his bet. I think we mentioned this scene in reference to when V. loses his will and I had said he had come to MM to reclaim his happiness by collecting on his bet. Poor description by me since V. has already resigned himself to not collecitng on it. But it appears he is trying to get back in MM's good graces, tryin to blot out MT's rejection of him. Don't wish to draw the condescension of others (oh, why the hell not) but: Favorite Colin look: drunk, disheveled, and unshaven after getting off his horse to meet D. for the duel. Even with the shadows under his eyes, he looks delectible to me. It's the mixture of relief at being punished for the misery he has caused and affront for being challenged by this silly boy when the real schemer is sitting smugly at home.

(Moon) Let�s not forget the other reason for the duel , which one may dare say the reason: V hit MM. Paris society would accept this as a reason and C�cile would still be the innocent virgin for G. I don�t think G would have married her otherwise. Bad me!! Skipped ahead to the end of the book and Danceny's note to Valmont is provided. Apparently, Danceny felt that Valmont had abused him, used him. No mention of MM or Cecile. Best little insight: MV is still an idiot even at the end. She writes a letter to M de Rosamunde, bewailing the fact that MM's reputation is being sullied by Danceny's showing people MM's letters to V. She refuses to believe that MM could be so manipulative, cruel, etc. Question: In the Cecile seduction scene, does anyone remember their impressions the very first time they saw it. I remember thinking it was cute, but when he stood up and started removing his coat, I felt a little repulsed. Of course, I no longer feel that way, but anyone?????

One last item: Why do you think he changed his mind? Was it the rejection by MT or did he find those feet flailing in the air irresistible? He had not wanted any part of MM's little intrigue...it was beneath him. So why did he change his mind?

It's hard to put aside my feelings for the actor when figuring out my felings during his seduction of Cecile. I think I was nervous that it would be a "rape" scene and was relieved that the scene was manipulated to make us think that Cecile was not repelled. I know that's a very fine line to tread. Forman dare not let us believe for a moment that he thinks raped women really want it. And I know this scene does turn some women off though I think the DL scene is more dangerous. Does Forman "reassure" u by having Cecile agree with MM that Valmont is indeed a very fine writer and her saying that there were times when she felt like she loved him? Would Valmont have stopped if she had fought him? Was she too terrified to fight him? Another good question, Karen, is why he changed his mind in the first place about seducing her. I think he is disturbed by MT's pleading with him to leave. He's failed for the moment. Probably figured, oh what the hell. After all, he is still a cad. Bedding fifteen year olds I'm sure was not that uncommon. And she is a sweet little thing. I'm sure those flailing feet were irresistable.

(heide)I'm sure those flailing feet were irresistable. Filmmakers and their feet. Does anybody remember Scorcese's contribution to "New York Stories"? Master painter and groupie/young painter; always these zooms in to her feet. Boy, folks, I don�t know where to begin! But I�m glad you did. I tried to start responding on a comment-by-comment basis, but it got very confusing for me. So I thought I�d just say how I looked at it as a film then and now, excluding everything else for now. I didn�t like V when it came out, for a few reasons. I had already read the V script (and didn�t like parts), read the DL script, and seen DL. Then I got ten years older (learning more about life and movies,) and I didn�t see it in the interim. I still haven�t read the book, but did have more interactions with Milos & Co. after seeing the film. Taking the film as a film, as much as I can: it seems to me the sequences go something like this: 1. MM finds she needs revenge on G, and chooses V as the weapon, but 2. V wants MT. 3. MM changes to CD for as tool for revenge, then 4. MM refocuses on V. 5. V opposes MM, which becomes 6. V crushed by (societal) forces he�s set off So it�s MM�s film, really, but it�s called Valmont, so that�s confusing. Then, the film opens and closes with Cecile�MM is in both scenes, but the first scene focuses on C, � I messed up who said what in all the processing of words. Please correct me if it matters, so others can follow your lines of discussion, and accept my profound apologies. I can�t do better today. (In addition to the sprain, I have Mouse Disease, caused by years of mousing. I am treating it with Chinese herbs, and am learning to mouse with my left hand. So it�s kind of like dueling when you�re drunk, this mousing.) (Moon on MT) He is taken by her, but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. (Moon on MM) I believe that he loves her. Moon's put her toe first in the water here. This should be an interesting debate. I think he loves them both in different ways. (Moon) She had written a letter to her husband but then we see him still at home. There is no explanation for this. Agreed, at least not from the film. I would guess, without looking at other sources, that he has either returned home despite the letter or she has asked him to return him, probably throwing herself at his feet. No MM she. I thought he came home from his trial�it�s house, where else would he go? It was interesting that he was old and bald on top, and the juxtaposition of the husband (Arami or someone, what would MT�s husband�s initials be? Since he�s a judge, wouldn�t his first initial be different, and thus we could use it to distinguish the two of them?) Evelyn (Heide)Which brings us to the interesting debate of love for MM or love for MT or both or none. Anyone ready to tackle that yet? The foreword to my book has a Harry Levin from Harvard saying: than a femme fatale ....a self-professed Delilah , with a vengence of hate to wreak on the opposite sex" We don't have to accept this perspective, but I thought it interesting. I saw her really hating men as a genre...enjoyed injuring them...even Valmont. Obviously, she only loved herself too. Did I see somewhere that Harry said this in the 60s, or did I dream it? Men always think they�re simpler and less harmful. From the movie, MM seemed self-destructive. I�ll think this through later. Moon Dreams (Moon) During the film when the above seduction is taking place, did you notice the film gets very grainy on that close up? I wonder if Milos filmed it as a wider shot but then changed his mind and had to zoom in and re-film directly from the film. Cheryle, can you answer this? Will be talking to someone in the know in the next couple of weeks. (CherylE) A fun fact I learned about a month ago: did you know that PAL tapes run almost 5% faster than NTSC tapes� I put links about this on 97 (Evelyn) My question to Cheryle (when you have time) : Did you get any knowledge of how CF personally interpreted the character of Valmont.? Did he and MF see "eye -to -eye ? This is for later ;-0 Lucie (alyeska) I seemed to me that so much happened at once that V lost his will to live his plot to bring Cecile and Chevalier together failed, then he found Chevalier in MM's bed. MT went back to her husband. I think he really loved MM but when she took such delight in showing him that she had seduced Chev. he really saw how corrupt she was. In the end when Chev was in the balcony laughing with the girls, the look MM gave him made me think that she is going to make him pay dearly for killing V. Karen (Evelyn) My question to him would be: why did he feel that an accent was necessary for the lead male and not for the others? Very true, Evelyn. He didn't feel the same way in casting other period films like Amadeus. Perhaps there was something in the character of Valmont that he didn't feel would be believable with an American accent. I have a theory I�ll run by you later.

go away italics!

Whew! (Moon) It is certainly Annette�s movie as well and she is wonderful. Totally agreed here. I now agree as well. I hated her in the old days, and even now there are things I don�t like, but I think she does the job very well. �in a later scene when MT is being mocked at the dinner table by the more worldly guests, he takes up her defense or at least deflects the attention from her. Is he defending her or is this just a ploy in his quest to seduce her? Definitely ploy. Total act. He's been trying to show MT that he isn't anything like the reputation he has throughout Paris, and she's halfway believing him. Naive little simp. I�m halfway believing him. I love the way it�s not clear! I love the way we don�t know what he�s really up to! MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all of Paris know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? MM would make sure everyone knew. She would probably have started spreading the rumor at the wedding ceremony itself had not the other events transpired. Absolutely. And everyone would want to believe it, such delicious gossip. Is Valmont a better human being than MM?...He sounds truly contrite when he apologizes for sending D. to challenge her. Well, I don't know about better....;-) but he is definitely not as cruel as she is. MM looks very contrite at V's funeral and at Cecile's wedding. She looks totally broken. Is it heart-felt? Is she sorry she drove Valmont over the edge with that little scene in her salon? Who knows. However, I didn't see Colin's Valmont as being cruelly sadistic as AB's MM was. It was a game for him and her only way of life. Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. I don�t know about "true", but otherwise I ditto everything. This is part of my thinking on how she�s self-destructive. She�s so busy trying not to be controlled that she�s at the mercy of consequences of actions she herself began. (is that English?!) That parlor dance. Look at the expressions on MT's face. Is she interested or what? I thought that was one of the most brilliant scenes I�ve ever seen in movies. Works in the movie, and on a universal level, blah, blah. I loved it, in addition to its beauty, its elegance as a film scene, and its marvelous execution. (Renate) This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Interesting observation. Seducers come in all flavors. There are your suave debonair types and your cute as a button puppy dog types. Colin's Valmont is smooth alright, but he's a cutie with dogged persistence and humor. (Moon) I still preferred it GC�s. Annette was coquettish and very feminine (flirty eyes and all). I could understand why V would be v. taken by her, even after his many conquests. But is he taken with her or has he resigned himself to hooking up with her because of their true natures. Two of a kind. It wouldn't be right to pursue MT seriously when he was a scoundrel at heart. He wouldn't have to be or try to be anything other than himself with MM. Who better than your best friend and confidante? Keep thi king about the lawyer-shark jokes: professional courtesy! Agree. He is taken by her [MT], but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. I still think he's in denial that he actually has those feelings. I think he's positively crushed when she leaves him that night. He sits there drinking wine and thinking about what has happened and what he should do. Just the way their love-making is photographed, all that whirling around and tenderness (her tears) I think is Forman's way of showing us that it is for real on both their parts. Real emotions are on display. It�s gotta be confusing to a guy, just as it was confusing to MM to see him taken with her. They�re actually having a life, changing with experience, and that threatens your denial like crazy. What if MM found herself wanting V desperately? It cannot be! We are led to believe that there was something between the two of them in the past when she says � still love you, you know." It�s true, and it�s also manipulative. At the beginning of the book, MM solicits Valmont's help with the Cecile seduction because he too has something against Gercourt. That makes tons of sense to me. (Heide) My impression is that he lost his will when he found MT had returned to her husband. Yes, I think it occured then. He had put her up on a pedestal and really did not think her capable of being another one of those society ladies who kept lovers. When she came to him, he would have thought that she was desperately in love with him and had already left her husband (the letter she had written after the first time) and would take whatever crumbs he would throw her way. But had she in fact returned to him? I thought she had just disappeared. He disappeared first. Now it�s shockingly done to him, and he finds it matters. Again, I just take it as confusion. (Evelyn) And at one point she tells Valmont: "Want to know why I never remarried...because I didn't want to take orders". Sums her up pretty well. Perhaps her husband cheated, surely she cheated on him. She tells Valmont he sounds like a husband. About the worst thing she could call him? Sounds right to me. Heide? Valmont like many men are uncomfortable when feelings of real love confront them. Being cruel, running away, driving off that person who has or can have power over you is their first reaction. Denial, pure and simple. How about, many people? MM is a fine example of that, when V comes to her at the end. And, the best way I know of to stay out of a relationship I know is to be in one with problems (well yes he/she is married but; well yes she/he IS not really good enough for me but I�ll stay until x; well everyone has affairs; so what if he/she/we/I is/are/am a drug addict/alcoholic/gambler/workaholic/allergic to children/incapable of spending time by themselves/whatever. How would it look for the great lover Valmont to have fallen hopelessly in love? People might laugh at him. Well, he did propose to MM, and, she did laugh at him! And it�s always cool to be cynical, even if it�s miserable Isn�t it odd that we always think being pessimistic is the smart move? Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. And she�s jealous. They�re both jealous when it seems someone else might come between them, in their twisted relationship. (Karen) I think we're talking about two different scenes No, actually I was referring to the last scene of Valmont with MM. He thinks he is finally going to collect on his bet as she leads him toward the bedroom only to fling the doors open to reveal poor, clumsy Danceny. I didn�t think it had to do with the bet. I thought he was so glad to be on intimate terms again with someone, someone who could accept him as was, and then she stabbed him and twisted the knife�no, I care nothing for our connection, and furthermore, here�s what I�ve done with your little lovebird. This is how "love" turns out. (Karen )Perhaps, she was very happy with her husband and after his death she was seduced by someone who turned out to be a real jerk. That could have been her turning point, that would explain the reason for her need to be in control at all times and not controlled by anyone. That issue of *control* makes me think MM married young and since we all know she's an extremely intelligent woman, couldn't stand an inferior husband telling her what to do and with whom. I'd say total disillusionment with marriage. In addition, I often sing praises to the Universe that I am a woman today and not in the past. I hate how hampered I am now by people�s prejudices about women, and I know I could never comprehend how bad it was even 50 years ago. I have all the compassion in the world for almost every woman born before 1970, and maybe almost all of us period. Question: In the Cecile seduction scene, does anyone remember their impressions the very first time they saw it. I remember thinking it was cute, but when he stood up and started removing his coat, I felt a little repulsed. Of course, I no longer feel that way, but anyone????? I was pissed and would have called the Child Protection Agency, except they wouldn�t get there quick enough. I don�t care if it was a movie. (KarenR) One last item: Why do you think he changed his mind? Was it the rejection by MT or did he find those feet flailing in the air irresistible? He had not wanted any part of MM's little intrigue...it was beneath him. So why did he change his mind? He was heated and hopeful from MT. His dictation of the letter was to her; his lovemaking was to her.

(Cheryle),He was heated and hopeful from MT. His dictation of the letter was to her; his lovemaking was to her. I like this Cheryle. That would change our P.O.V. of Cecile's seduction scene. He does not seduce a child but a woman. More later.

I like your explanation too, Cheryl. I've wondered if he was really writing to MT but then thought it too simplistic. But why let it get too complicated? You've sold me. (Cheryl) So it�s MM�s film, really, but it�s called Valmont, so that�s confusing. Agree it's confusing. Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? (Cheryl on MM) This is part of my thinking on how she�s self-destructive. She�s so busy trying not to be controlled that she�s at the mercy of consequences of actions she herself began. (is that English?!) It certainly is English. Couldn't have said it better myself and rarely have. The dance scene was mentioned again and it is my favorite scene in the entire movie. Valmont may be a rascal but he sure knows how to make the ladies happy. Look at how his aunt adoringly looks at her handsome nephew. Love watching the faces of the onlookers while he partners another lady. Love how he blatently looks at MT while dancing with MM, succeeding quite well in annoying MM.

Oh, oh! Thank you all for your good wishes re my absence. I did miss you...I'm buying a computer next week for home, so I won't be as constrained in the future as to when I can read and post. (Moon Dreams)I like this Cheryle. That would change our P.O.V. of Cecile's seduction scene. He does not seduce a child but a woman. Maybe. But to my sensibility, absentmindedly prying apart the legs of a child while hot for someone else is one of the world's many wrongs. I don't always think of a 15 year old as a child, but given V's age and position, she's an infant. (heide)I like your explanation too, Cheryl. I've wondered if he was really writing to MT but then thought it too simplistic. But why let it get too complicated? You've sold me. V whole dictation keeps "breaking character", not really from C to D. (Cheryl) So it�s MM�s film, really, but it�s called Valmont, so that�s confusing. Agree it's confusing. Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? Yup, and I think it's been touched on above, but I'll say my piece when we're ready to include outside influences ;-) The dance scene was mentioned again and it is my favorite scene in the entire movie.... And it's such a great snapshot of V with 4 stages in a woman's life. Oh, so carefree and harmless (heh,heh,heh.) (I really do have major attitude about Milos and the film, I'll try to be good till later . . .) As Nan would say, BWWWAAAHHHAAAHHHAAAHHHAAA!!!!

(Heide) Bedding fifteen year olds I'm sure was not that uncommon. (Cheryl)I was pissed and would have called the Child Protection Agency. (Moon Dreams) He does not seduce a child but a woman. LOL, Cheryl! I have read in another boring history book that the age of consent for females in England was actually 12 until early 19th century! I imagine France would not have been different. (However, general views and practice had been evidently changing during Jane Austen's times: e.g., she didn't imply that Lizzy was an old spinster at 21, and both Lydia and Georgiana are described as mentally immature for a sexual relationship at 15. I believe these were quite progressive ideas then!) (Cheryl)(Arami or someone, what would MT�s husband�s initials be? For myself, I don't remember off hand if MT's husband had a first name, but why not just call him JT? But perhaps that other someone will have a better suggestion? :-) Perhaps there was something in the character of Valmont that he didn't feel would be believable with an American accent. I have a theory I�ll run by you later. Cheryl, you so tantalizingly defer so many replies! :-) Can't wait for your own computer... Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? Maybe simply because he was a more sympathetic character, more complex and capable of reform, and she was ultimately just a scheming bitch? ;-)

(Moon Dreams)I like this Cheryle. That would change our P.O.V. of Cecile's seduction scene. He does not seduce a child but a woman. (Cheryl) I don't always think of a 15 year old as a child, but given V's age and position, she's an infant. Let us not forget that Cecile is going to marry Gercourt shortly, so 15 is marriageable. Given the bedroom antics that were going on, they couldn't keep them virginal much past that time. ;-) (Heide) Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? Who said we can't bring in any outside references yet? In Forman's Memoirs, he does allude to it. He admits to not sticking religiously to the book and instead intended to concentrate on the character of Valmont. I do believe that DL is much more MM's movie than is Valmont. In DL, it begins and closes with MM looking at herself in a mirror. She looks young and vibrant, fresh in the morning in the opening scene, but at the end she is removing that hideous white face powder that makes her look like dea h warmed over.

(Arami)(Cheryl)(Arami or someone, what would MT�s husband�s initials be?) For myself, I don't remember off hand if MT's husband had a first name, but why not just call him JT? But perhaps that other someone will have a better suggestion? :-) I didn't think he had a first name, but I figured that if he's a judge, he had a title, and you always know that sort of thing---what judges in late 18c Paris were called. JT for Judge Tourvel is fine by me. Perhaps there was something in the character of Valmont that he didn't feel would be believable with an American accent. I have a theory I�ll run by you later. Cheryl, you so tantalizingly defer so many replies! :-) Can't wait for your own computer... (Karen)Who said we can't bring in any outside references yet? In Forman's Memoirs, he does allude to it. He admits to not sticking religiously to the book and instead intended to concentrate on the character of Valmont. Gosh. Ok. If our co-host has fired the gun, then I'm off to the races. As it's a marathon, and I do have my Mouse Disease, I'll take it piece by piece. I get all mixed up if I don't start at the beginning with the first sequence, because I forget who's said what about this or that. Or maybe it's the storyteller in me--beginning, middle, and end. Anyway. No complex theories. Valmont is Milos, and he thinks he's a great guy. He thinks most men are great guys. He thinks men simply cannot cause as m ch harm to women as women can to men. And that's the problem with the script, and that's the problem Colin had with the part, IMHO. Passive characters don't work. If you're writing about yourself, the main character is usually passive, since we perceive things as happening to us. And I don't think he saw it as passive, and it was not cool when I brought it up with someone. I'll defend my thesis, as well as others, as I go through. It's the most common thing in the world. If I had a dollar for every time I sat in a class and heard, "You're not treating your character badly enough." "Your character is too good." Etc., etc. It's a given with me that it was a good choice to have V a charming, light seducer. But at the end, when MM says, "you're a very bad man," I didn't get it. Gotta go but I look forward, etc. (Karen)Let us not forget that Cecile is going to marry Gercourt shortly, so 15 is marriageable. Given the bedroom antics that were going on, they couldn't keep them virginal much past that time. ;-) I buy that. I think my perspective is twisted, since I haven't read the book and I haven't spent time with that character. I'm reacting from my own prejudices. (Karen)I do believe that DL is much more MM's movie than is Valmont. In DL, it begins and closes with MM looking at herself in a mirror. She looks young and vibrant, fresh in the morning in the opening scene, but at the end she is removing that hideous white face powder that makes her look like death warmed over. I haven't seen DL in all these years, but I do remember that powder. I'll watch it again. At the time, I was immersed in V.

Ladies, I have been lurking, the discussions are both insightful and provocative, I have but little to add, so with Heidi's encouragement, here goes: 1. Valmont -- it's success, or lack of it. We agree that Valmont was well done, just not well received. There were so many things that worked against it. a. Amadaues -- unless Forman's next movie was an even bigger success , it will be considered a failure. b. Such a young cast -- in 1989, MT was probably the only name known to American audience. (I didn't hear about AB until she started to date Warren Batey. c. Timing -- in this case, second was last place. 2. V's most seductive seduction scene. a. My vote goes to the dance scene. He is charming 4 women, all different ages, each in their own way comes under his spell. 3. V's most disgusting action. a. "something about your husband's nose." This was a turnoff for me, it shows how indiscriminate V is with women, anyone will do, it's just another conquest. 4. Was MM in love with Gercourt? I hardly think so, she only wanted him for his wealth and position. (Jeffery Jones seems to be another Forman favorite, he was the emperor in Amadaues.) 5. When did MT fall for V? Little by little, but the deciding moment was when they were dancing, she was completely under his spell. The way they looked at each other, the dancing and the acting were both superb. 6. V's most tender moment. In MT's room, when she asked him to go away, his eyes seem to be full of tears. "And this is what you want?" He knows that success soon be his. 7. Re: the Cecileseduction scene. I too think it's cute. V is so playful, and so easily distracted by a pair of pretty legs. I don't think it was premeditated. I agree with Cherly that he was thinking of MT all the while. BTW, no one has mentioned the "butt" double in this scene, wonder if she was listed in the credits, imagine having that job ;-)) Re: (Cheryl) Valmont is Milos... Are we talking Titanic "King of the World" ? This is turning into quite an educational board! Actually, I enjoy "bad" characters, they seem to have all the fun. And is it true that many actors like to play the badie, because the characters are much more complex and demanding to play?

Oh, Emma, glad you've come to play. I think you've brought up three very significant reasons for Valmont's "failure" with c being perhaps the most important, in my mind. Your point with lack of well known names is well taken too though I guess I'd have to say that Amadeus prospered without well known names. Still, I too remember only having heard of Meg Tilly when it first came out. And she was never a draw for me. Oh, if only I had known what I was missing! (Emma) no one has mentioned the "butt" double in this scene, wonder if she was listed in the credits, imagine having that job ;-)) Come on, Cheryl, 'fess up.

Would that it were so. I mean, to look like that. It's really not easy to be exposed to the other actors and crew. But then I guess you'd have to be an exhibitionist to sign up for that job. I do know someone who was Val Kilmer's subject while he learned to be a masseuse for some role recently. Rendezvous at his hotel suite, 20 times, an hour each; he was an enthusiastic student. Now that's an assignment..............sorry, forgot what I was doing..........

(Heide) Comparing Valmont to MM: how about Valmont had a conscience, MM did not. (Karen) Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. (Moon) What does the book say Karen? The book (MM herself!!) exposes her character through one particular letter (No. 81) to Valmont. It is v.long, so I will do only bits of it. She is a self-made woman. She created herself and left out those feelings which would be considered weak and typical of her sex. To achieve her objective, MM could not be helplessly in love nor could she have a conscience. In a way, she made herself over to be a typical man, without conscience in his conquest of women and in control over the course of the affair when it begins and ends).(MM on her life)...you have seen me controlling events and opinions; turning the formidable male into the plaything of my whims and fancies; depriving some of their will, others of the power to hurt me....I have kept my reputation untarnished...that I, who was born to revenge my sex and master yours... When have you known me to break the rules I have laid down for myself or to betray my principles? I say 'my principles' intentionally. They are not, like those of other women... I have created them: I might say that I have created myself. At my entrance into society I was still a girl, condemned by my status to silence and inaction, and I made the most of my opportunities to observe and reflect....I paid little attention, in fact, to what everyone was anxious to tell me, but was careful to ponder what they attempted to hide. This useful curiosity...taught me to dissemble....I tried...to control the different expressions on my face. When I felt annoyed I practised looking serene, even cheerful ...I went so far as to suffer pain voluntarily so as to achieve a simultaneous expression of pleasure. I labored with the same care...to repress symptoms of unexpected joy. In this way I was able to acquire the power over my features at which I have sometimes seen you so astonished. (MM on love/pleasure)I proceeded a virgin into the arms of Monsieur de Merteuil...I awaited the moments of enlightenment with confidence, and had to remind myself to show embarrassment and fear...I took exact account of pains and pleasures, regarding the various sensations simply as facts to be collected and meditated upon...My studies soon became a delight. But faithful to my principles...I decided, for the very reason that I had become susceptible to pleasure, to appear in his eyes as impassive. This apparent frigidity proved later to be the unshakeable foundation of his blind trust in me...never did he think me more of a child than when I was most flagrantly deceiving him. [Note: She did not have other affairs.] It was here...that I confirmed the truth that love, which we cry up as the source of our pleasures, is nothing more than an excuse for them. [emphasis added] (MM on Valmont)...when you first favoured me with your attentions. No homage ever flattered me more. I desired you before I had seen you. Your reputation so impressed me that it seemed that only you could bring me glory. I longed to measure swords with you. This is the only one of my desires that has ever for a moment gained sway over me...It is true that I have since surrendered all my secrets to you: but you are aware of the interests that unite us... Sorry for this lengthy quot tion. Wish I could have summarized it, but her words are so fascinating. (Moon) But Heide, V comes to collect on his bet when MM is taking a bath, remember? She gets on the bed with legs open and he can't bare to do anything. Moon, you mentioned this earlier. Doesn't this scene clearly show the difference between V and MM. It seems to me that, if they were exactly the same, he would have *collected* on his bet regardless of her attitude of disinterest. She's mercenary enough. (Heide) Don't wish to draw the condescension of others (oh, why the hell not) but: Favorite Colin look So difficult to narrow down. I love the scene at the opera when he is introduced to Cecile. I also love when he gallops up to MT, sweeps her up into the saddle to shoot the arrow (OK, into the roast turkey) and then gallops off to the picnic in the clearing. Then, finally, the whirling and twirling heady love scene when MT comes to him. Argh, pure pain to watch. ;-D (Karen) He's been trying to show MT that he isn't anything like the reputation he has throughout Paris, and she's halfway believing him. (Cheryl) I�m halfway believing him. I love the way it�s not clear! I love the way we don�t know what he�s really up to! Yes, I'm really seeing the ambiguity in the book. His letters to MT. You don't know what is real and what he is making up just to get on her good side. Many were shown in DL. Forman must want to show that his Valmont's attentions to MT were truer, even though he may not have understood/known it himself. (Cheryl) And she�s [MM] jealous. They�re both jealous when it seems someone else might come between them, in their twisted relationship. Yes, MM is also jealous and she accuses V of the same in a letter before her Declaration of War. But I think she says this again to manipulate him�not that it's true. For V to be jealous, he would have to have deep feelings of love for her. He does not. She knows that he *loves* MT and his desire to return to her (MM) put her in second place, something she could not tolerate. (Heide) she leads him toward the bedroom only to fling the doors open to reveal poor, clumsy Danceny (Cheryl) I thought he was so glad to be on intimate terms again with someone, someone who could accept him as was Maybe not glad, but resigned to the fact that that was the best he could expect. A predictable life, with someone he understood and who did not have the capacity to touch his soul. (Cheryl) what would MT�s husband�s initials be? (Arami) why not just call him JT? But perhaps that other someone will have a better suggestion? :-) The only other info the book gives on the husband is that his position or title is Pr�sident, the presiding magistrate of a court of justice. His wife is the Pr�sidente. Still no way of differentiating. We could call her PT? ;-) (Cheryl) Valmont is Milos, and he thinks he's a great guy. Quite a bit of credence in what you say Forman did. From his memoirs: "the relationship between Valmont and Merteuil is like the strange flirtation that often develops between a director and his leading lady. At least that's what has always happened to me." (Cheryl) He thinks most men are great guys. He thinks men simply cannot cause as much harm to women as women can to men. With the exception of a Loreena Bobbit, I don't agree at all with that last statement. B-b-but, in Forman's defense, DL was also written by a man. ;-) (Cheryl) And that's the problem with the script, and that's the problem Colin had with the part, IMHO. Passive characters don't work...It's a given with me that it was a good choice to have V a charming, light seducer. But at the end, when MM says, "you're a very bad man," I didn't get it. I'm not sure it's the passivity that's the problem, but that Forman left so much out. The statement is so ironic because MM believes all men are bad. She simultaneously condemns/envies V because he subjugates women so easily via his looks, manners, position in society. It's in his nature as a man. BTW, wouldn't you say Frank Capra made characters who were essentially passive until the end (like V) interesting? It's a Wonderful Life, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, Meet John Doe. As you are rewatching DL, check out the use of letters at the beginning and end. Title sequence, opening the letter to show the name of the movie. Richness of the letter gives appearance of civility of manners. Ending letters pulled from Valmont's shirt after the duel: blood-stained. Nice touch! (Emma) V's most tender moment. In MT's room, when she asked him to go away, his eyes seem to be full of tears. "And this is what you want?" He knows that success soon be his. Does he know this? Or is his conscience kicking in? Anyone else have an opinion here?

Thanks for the book excerpts. The description begs the question whatever happened in her life to make her become such an expert at deception? That she is an extremely intelligent woman impatient and unaccepting of her sex's fate doesn't explain why she can not love. As long as she receives her pleasures she has no need for love. The letter is an interesting insight into her character. (Cheryl) And she�s [MM] jealous. They�re both jealous when it seems someone else might come between them, in their twisted relationship. (Karen) Yes, MM is also jealous and she accuses V of the same in a letter before her Declaration of War. And Valmont is certainly trying hard to arouse her jealousy. My favorite example of this when he dares to give his attention to MT even while dancing with MM. (Cheryl) I thought he was so glad to be on intimate terms again with someone, someone who could accept him as was (Karen)Maybe not glad, but resigned to the fact that that was the best he could expect. They've enjoyed playing their games for years. They enjoy one-upping each other. They're worthy competitors but I would gather from Forman's version that Valmont does not always play the game at MM's level - no one can be he comes closest. I'm not sure what's meant by Valmont being described as a passive character. I think of passive characters having things done to them rather than acting themselves. Valmont is a pawn but I think he acts with MT. Can you explain why you would consider Valmont as being passive?

(Cheryl) I do know someone who was Val Kilmer's subject while he learned to be a masseuse for some role recently. Rendezvous at his hotel suite, 20 times, an hour each; he was an enthusiastic student. Now that's an assignment..............sorry, forgot what I was doing.......... Hmmm, so where do we sign up? Karen, thanks for the fascinating passage from the book, shows MM's superior intelligence and level of self control. The symbolism in DL, when Glen Close powdered her face, she was in effect donning a mask to conceal her true nature. (sorry if someone has mentioned this already) ....I have kept my reputation untarnished...that I, who was born to revenge my sex and master yours... She would've made quite a wife for Henry VIII (I know, wrong country, wrong century, but MM would've "mastered" Old Henry.) I longed to measure swords with you. This is the only one of my desires that has ever for a moment gained sway over me...It is true that I have since surrendered all my secrets to you: but you are aware of the interests that unite us... (Heide) They've enjoyed playing their games for years. They enjoy one-upping each other. They're worthy competitors but I would gather from Forman's version that Valmont does not always play the game at MM's level - no one can be he comes closest. MM was interested in V because of his reputation, it became a challenge to beat V at his own game. Yes, I agree, in the end, the victories seem hollow if she cannot share her success with someone. Anyone care to comment -- MM was one for equal opportunities, an early feminist gone wrong.

(Heide) That she is an extremely intelligent woman impatient and unaccepting of her sex's fate doesn't explain why she can not love. It seems to me that she must just be afraid of the consequences. You know someone having that much influence over her. In whatever limited capacity she has for love, she did love Valmont but caused it to end. Or maybe it's like some kind of kinky sex thing like asphyxiation!! ;-) To each his own. (Emma) MM was one for equal opportunities, an early feminist gone wrong. Oooh!! What an idea!! Excellent observation, Emma. There are plenty of women like her in the workplace today. Unfortunately, they give the rest of us a bad name, which I wouldn't use here on a public board. ;-)

Thank you Karen for the insightful quotations. (the book): I might say that I have created myself. I paid little attention, in fact, to what everyone was anxious to tell me, but was careful to ponder what they attempted to hide. I tried...to control the different expressions on my face. When I felt annoyed I practised looking serene, even cheerful ...I went so far as to suffer pain voluntarily so as to achieve a simultaneous expression of pleasure. I labored with the same care...to repress symptoms of unexpected joy. In this way I was able to acquire the power over my features at which I have sometimes seen you so astonished. One can see how skillful AB was in her portrayal of MM. Her facial features where quite expressive even in concealing emotions. The last scene with V comes to mind. Certainly less of a charicature than GC in DL. But faithful to my principles...I decided, for the very reason that I had become susceptible to pleasure, to appear in his eyes as impassive.This apparent frigidity proved later to be the unshakeable foundation of his blind trust in me...never did he think me more of a child than when I was most flagrantly deceiving him. [Note: She did not have other affairs.] In the book she did not have other affairs??? What about V and G? See below: (MM on Valmont)...when you first favoured me with your attentions. No homage ever flattered me more. I desired you before I had seen you. Your reputation so impressed me that it seemed that only you could bring me glory. I longed to measure swords with you. This is the only one of my desires that has ever for a moment gained sway over me...It is true that I have since surrendered all my secrets to you: but you are aware of the interests that unite us... Was V her only affair in the book? (Karen ), It seems to me that, if they were exactly the same, he would have *collected* on his bet regardless of her attitude of disinterest. She's mercenary enough. This always puzzled me too. Why wouldn�t he collect on his bet right there, that�s what he came for. What else did he expect from her? Did his true feelings for her get in the way? Love? Favorite Colin look: I have a weakness for Colin on horseback and dancing. Just show me a smile! I'm really seeing the ambiguity in the book. His letters to MT. You don't know what is real and what he is making up just to get on her good side. Exactly! I still believe that she might have been his most hard earned conquest, but not true love. For V to be jealous, he would have to have deep feelings of love for her. He does not. She knows that he *loves* MT and his desire to return to her (MM) put her in second place, something she could not tolerate. I need proof. This is not clear to me. (Heide) she leads him toward the bedroom only to fling the doors open to reveal poor, clumsy Danceny (Cheryl) I thought he was so glad to be on intimate terms again with someone, someone who could accept him as was (Karen),Maybe not glad, but resigned to the fact that that was the best he could expect. A predictable life, with someone he understood and who did not have the capacity to touch his soul. But she did touch his soul. They were two of a kind. DL was also written by a man. A very vindictive man. Ouch! (Cheryl) And that's the problem with the script, and that's the problem Colin had with the part, IMHO. Passive characters don't work...It's a given with me that it was a good choice to have V a charming, light seducer. But I agree with Heide�s definition of a passive character. V is not a passive character. Many things happen because of him, he doesn�t just react, he acts. But at the end, when MM says, "you're a very bad man," I didn't get it. You�re a very bad man because you should have wanted me sooner and not have let me go. You have made me become like you. You have made me hate you. ( Karen), BTW, wouldn't you say Frank Capra made characters who were essentially passive until the end (like V) interesting? It's a Wonderful Life, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, Meet John Doe. If the JS characters were so passive, I wouldn�t feel so passionate about these films. Those are strong characters Karen. (Emma) V's most tender moment. In MT's room, when she asked him to go away, his eyes seem to be full of tears. "And this is what you want?" He knows that success soon be his. ( Karen), Does he know this? Or is his conscience kicking in? Anyone else have an opinion here? His conscience might be at work here, but, the next day she leaves and he follows her to her house and success is indeed his. If he were so conscientious, he would have accepted her departure and not kept insisting.

(Moon) In the book she did not have other affairs??? What about V and G? Sorry, if I was not clear. She did not have other affairs while she was married. She had plenty of other affairs once she came out of mourning. You couldn't believe how she plotted and planned her reentry into society and how she made sure that the right guys knew she was available (her mother wanted her to go into a convent!!) (Moon) This always puzzled me too. Why wouldn�t he collect on his bet right there, that�s what he came for. What else did he expect from her? Did his true feelings for her get in the way? Love? To me it just shows that they fundamentally are different animals. Also, she's dishonorable. I think this also shows her lack of class. Doesn't a gentleman always honor his bets? This lady was no gentleman. (Moon) I still believe that she might have been his most hard earned conquest, but not true love. I need proof. This is not clear to me. OK, let me get my book out later (I'll post this weekend). He writes many letters to MT, but there are two done in quick succession--one that he allows MM to read *before* he sends it because she will get a chuckle out of it and a second, which he doesn't let her review. The second contains some v.interesting comments about how MT reaches his soul. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you cry. A bunch of hooey!! But I took it as perhaps his true feelings because he wouldn't share it with MM. (Moon) You�re a very bad man because you should have wanted me sooner and not have let me go. You have made me become like you. You have made me hate you. But MM did this all to herself. Valmont had nothing really to do with her choice of careers. She chose it herself and trained herself. I also get the feeling that she pushed him away to end their affair, although in the movie, didn't AB say something about "who would betray who first, this time" when V comes to see her and sort-of proposes they go back together. (Moon) Those are strong characters Karen. They're naive and idealist characters until the end when they get passionate and break out of their passivity. BTW, I don't believe Valmont is a passive character either. Both MM and V are actively manipulating people and each other throughout. It's just that MM doesn't play by M of Queensbury rules. ;-)

Some thoughts: Don't like MdM at all, but she seems to be a surprisingly modern woman for her times, when women, like MdT, were completely dependent on their husbands, and only gained a certain amount of personal freedom as rich widows or high class courtesans. So I understand her quite well when she defends her freedom fiercely. Sometimes I wonder what I would [like to] be if I lived in Choderlos de Lenclos' (or Austens) time, and I would rather be a MdM than MdT. (Colin let aside, that is. :-) ) And where are we now? I am not dependent on a husband or a lover, but I am dependent on my job. Speak about progress... :-p After all they won't throw me out of my bathtub. BTW: German TV is very good to us - VALMONT on Wednesday, Oct. 21 (VOX, 22.05h), and the day before, CIRCLE OF FRIENDS (Pro7, 20.15h). Good reviews for both.

Oh, you lucky thing! Except that... aren't those films dubbed? Shame... ;-)

V's most tender moment. In MT's room ( Karen), Does he know this? Or is his conscience kicking in? (moon)...If he were so conscientious, he would have accepted her departure and not kept insisting. Don't forget about that bet with MM, V would've had to be a "little Monk" had he lost. Why he did not collect on his bet: He must be more romantic at heart than he admits, the look of disgust on Colin's face was priceless...he was not about to make love to a women who didn't want him, the man does have his pride. V went through quite a few emotions in this scene, triumph, disgust, anger...how well CF plays these emotions.

Check out the main Drool page. Ya like??? ;-D Finally, thanks to Ann, it's up!! http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/drool/all/new

Unbelieveably cool. Deep bows, curtseys, and thanks to you all.

Great stuff! Just out of curiosity, who is the woman in the picture? And what movie is this from?

Tell you what, Terry, I'll give you the answers if set up my account!! ;-) (Meg Tilly and Valmont

Sure, what username will it be under?

Hi everybody, It's good to be back again. I'm a bit late, but nonetheless: Welcome, Audrey! Good to see another newbie. Don't worry for your typos, we won't mind and you'll improve your typing by posting your comments constantly, and as you'll see my English isn't very good but I keep posting stubbornly only hoping that it is at least more or less understandable. Whow! you all have been quite hard working during my absence, it won't be easy to catch up, but I'll try and hope that I won't be too repetitive:-) Which one is more faithful to the book, DL or V? After reading the book there is no doubt for me, it's DL, the Frears's version, in terms of the plot. The Hampton script is very close to the original. It is not only that he has adopted the facts that C loses her baby and MT dies in the end, but there are also many details in the book which you can find again in the movie and which were neglected in Forman's adaptation. On the other side Forman not only "invented" some nice things as the horse and arrow scenes, but took the freedom to change the end. But as I see, by doing this Forman made his characters more realistic. As much as I like the Frears's version, I always found it a bit exaggerated, especially in the end: All the evil characters got their punishment and the good is triumphant: V dies in the duel, MM is despised, sneezed at, thrown out of the good society (in the book she even loses all her money, suffers from smallpox and her face is even completely disfigured by them). MT was not really evil, but someone who has been a "saint" before can't c ntinue her life as a "normal" human being with all his weaknesses and failings, so she must die too, but out of a broken heart, which is a very appropriate kind of dying for a good character. It is not clearly said what happened to C afterwards in the Frears's version, so I thing she is going to lead a "normal" life (but in the book a remorseful C with shattered illusions and unsuitable for life, decides to live in the convent - as MT she is not really evil but only an innocent victim, who has done immora things, but she can't continue life in the good society and possibly be married to a decent husband after such failings, so she has to become a nun, voluntarily of course, because she genuinely is a good girl) Sorry for that digression, but what I'm driving at is, that the DL (Book and movie) in the end seen to be a bit theatrical, overdone and unnatural, a concession to the demands of the 18th century audience suggesting they want the bad chaps to be punished. So Forman's changes render the plot more re listic: they all have learnt their lesson but are (almost) all still alive. As the book is narrated in form of letters, it's a bit difficult to judge the characters, because all the descriptions are prejudiced by the writers and not made by an independent narrator. But I have some difficulties to see MV, C, MT and the others in the Frears's version trusting V resp. MM (except MV who warns MT about V), who are so obviously mean and nasty in their appearance as alleged nice and trustworthy characters. Whereas MM and V in Forman's adaptation - as I see it - are more convincing as th apparently nice and caring characters - nice and caring on the outside only, of course, but evil, nasty and malevolent in their true hidden natures -. I daresay CF conveys the pretended kindness much better than JM(who therefor is the better monster IMO) CF's V is very convincing as Mr. Nice. So if you didn't know of the bet and his true intentions but only saw what is obvious to the other characters, you would believe him, wouldn't you? OK, admittedly, MT and C are doomed to blindness: MT by her goodnes , C by her innocence and both are - as well as Danceny - very naive, but that's it, people are credulous, gullible, naive and innocent in reality. And V plays his role to perfection, he is Mr. Right to everyone (reminds me of Jack in AZ): the nice and friendly nephew to Mme. de Rosemonde; the supporting friend to Danceny; to C the playful companion and confidant on the one side and on the other the strict teacher - not only to improve her writing skills -; the unscrupulous 'playmate' to MM and the reckles master of seduction for his own sakes. CECILE... C clearly is a focus of Forman's version. Although in the Frears's version the sexual relation between V and C is more elaborated as part of the plan to humiliate Gercourt [BTW does anybody know, why they changed his name in DL into M. de Bastide???] whereas Forman's V restricted himself to take her virginity. UT's C seems to be more grown up .. but they didn't gave her too much in the script ... To my mind FB plays her C to perfection: the naive-lecherous curiosity of the virgin C, who as a result of her convent upbringing has no power to resist the quick and effective action of her seducer who lets the seduction take place as the most natural thing in the world - only a small incident in the fringe of the letter writing. The expression on her face during all this is priceless: The way FB shows us C as half-girl, half-woman is very convincing to me. On the one side she is going to be married, liv ng through her first love and her first sexual experiences (and all this involving three different men and at the age of 15) and on the other side she is acting like a child (despite her protest), completely innocent, playing with V, her childish joy about Gercourt's wedding present and about the news of her wedding taken place in the royal chapel with the King him self in attendance - a little girl's dream coming true. Mme de TOURVEL / VALMONT In Frears's DL the story of MT and V is much more elaborated, more precisely and subsequently more coherent and more convincing concerning the inner distress and struggles of MT. Whereas Forman's MT is less 'saint', not as naive (innocent but not as naive) as Frears's MT. She seems to have more inner power and only struggling with the 'normal' scruples of a married woman falling in love with someone else and not with her whole conception of the world. Nevertheless, they both succumb to her susceptibility o a dashing daredevil who uses every little chance given. Still it's difficult to see for me, why MP's MT is falling for JM's V, but easy to see (not only because I'm a CF admirer) why MT's MT is smitten by CF's V. He is so charming, that you really have to force yourself not to forget, that his behaviour, his intentions are actually rather nasty, though CF's V is not so obviously/convincingly malevolent as JM's. Does V love MT? He is certainly taken by her, but I don't think he loves her - at least not in terms of 'real', selfless love. First it's only the challenge for someone, who is out to make conquests, to capture this bastion of faith, purity and moral principles, a thrill he - used to all kinds of strong stimuli and grown weary of them - wants to enjoy. Later on he is taken by her care, her selfless love for him. She loves him as probably no one else has loved him before, most likely not even his mother. She is the first one who cares more for him than for herself. But his sadness after MT has gone back to her husband is a result of the discovery, that he has lost that only person who really loved him and that he has lost the power over her - in the end it was her decision to split up, not his. he wanted her to surrender, but it has only been a temporary success. He couldn't manage to break her. She is still able to stand up again. she gets into power the moment V accepted to let her in and spent the night with her, after he had first abandoned her. V doesn't realis it, but that's the moment he loses the game, the power. She's not come out of love (not in the first place) but to regain her self-respect, to know that despite her passion for him she is able to resist and to leave him. She has learned her lesson, that it was an arrogant presumption to believe that she never could be tempted. It is desperate for her to see that she could, but it is salutary that after all her struggling and stumbling she is able to stand up straight and to stay with her husband (somethi g we actually only suppose, they don't really tell us, do they?). [Apropos stumbling: there is a lot of stumbling around in V: V jumping into the water, V running up the stairs to see MT, C on her way to collect her letter to Danceny to show it to MM (first she's only stumbling but later she's even falling sown), D collecting his harp and stuff and falling over it after being confronted by MV, D leaving MM's bed to go after V; even V's horse is stumbling crossing the water on his way to Paris to see MT.] If I did only know V and had neither seen DL, the movie, nor read DL, the book, I daresay I would think that V might be in love with MT. CF/V plays that part very convincingly despite some inconsistencies. But as I know them I don't think he really loves her. Reading/seeing DL I was almost in a rage about his letters/behaviour to MT. How easily he always put her on the wrong side, never considering/accepting her wishes, her arguments, always saying one thing and doing the other, always justifying his doin with his 'love' for her. I always felt as if he were saying: "Yes, I do you wrong, I'm behaving badly, but it's only because I love you, so you have to take it as a good thing." And poor MT may say whatever she wants, she is helpless against his ignorance, so how could she not give in. And in V: his irritation shown when MT tells him that she has send a letter to her husband explaining everything. As I see it, that is clearly a sign, that he has no interest in a serious relationship and all the trouble t is would cause, and he seems to bee a bit nauseated by what she is saying to him how she wants to serve him etc. ... so no real love on his side. Mme de MERTEUIL / VALMONT The evil as such is shown in their characters, the pure will to hurt, the utter lack of kindness, sympathy and concern, a self-destructive will to destroy all the goodness of the nearest, the pure, the helpless. They are two of a kind, sort of soul-mates, but ... Does V love MM? I don't think so. Whatever it has been in their previous liaison, now it's not love, but more a question of power. When he proposes marriage it's not out of love, but in the hope of impressing her, in the hope of regaining the power over her after she rejected him. He only want's to win the great game, can't bear the thought of losing the power. And when she tells him, that she still loves him, it's out of the same reason. She wants to heighten his mood only to let him fall the deeper by 'sharing her latest secret' with him. In the end it's always the question of power as in all human relationships, it all boils down to an undisguised struggle of power: the strong, reckless, the unscrupulous gets the upper hand, and the weak, conscientious is helpless and defeated. DL/V shows the everlasting game, repeated ever after: The wolf eats the lamb. Woe betide anyone who leaves the security of the stable or who grants the voracious admission to it. Everyone has to cope with his own failings; the one survives, the other does not, depending on whether one is strong or weak. At what moment does V lose his will to live on? As I see it it's neither when he is abandoned by MT nor when he discovers D in MM's bed, because after that he still tries to win the game by planing C's elopement, but only at the very end, facing MM's betrayal of his acting against C and D. Who is the better one, MM or V? I'd rather ask, who is the less evil. To my mind MM is a real unscrupulous monster, with a frozen soul, a medical case. But I daresay there might have been some hope for V had he not been bound to die. On the razor's edge the hedonist, the reckless libertine, changes, in the end he showed a painful sympathising heart behind his cynical exterior. pfffff ..... enough.

Oh no!!! what's going on there??? What have I done?? (Have I done anything?)arrgh ... All that stupid, much too long stuff, and four times, I'm terrible sorry. Is there any possibility to skip the repetitions????

Welcome back, Kirsten. Tell us about your trip on 97, if you like. Your message was so full of little goodies, that posting it four times seems reasonable. ;-) Since we've had a bad experience "retiring" a topic, I'm afraid to "kill" your extra responses but perhaps Karen can work that out yet. Kirsten, you call Forman's version more realistic than Frears. I would agree and also call it more subtle. You mention the malevolence in the characters of MM and V in DL. Almost black/white. There are more grays in Forman's Valmont thought JM's portrayal in the end also shows V. as questioning his original intention. MM's punishment is also more subtle in Valmont. One would never know she was being punished but for her tears for Valmont (genuine tears but whether for Valmont or for herself, who kno s?) and her being alone at the wedding. How gratifying ;-) to know how she will fare later. We're having quite a discussion on whether Valmont truly loved MT. I think in discussing the film, Valmont, we have to discount what the book tells us and go by what Forman wants us to believe and decide for ourselves if he brings it across. I'm in the camp who thinks Forman wants us to believe V. did love MT. Frankly, I think JM's Valmont also ends up loving MT. In effect, both Valmont's end up committing suicide - both have lost their will. Have their eyes been opened by MT to what true love really s, know they'll never experience it and only by killing themselves be able to repent? Or have they finally experienced that love themselves and now having lost it, feel they can never regain it, thus making their lives worthless? Ouch, way too deep. I think Valmont fights his love for MT and doesn't recognize it until the very end. His sole purpose is winning that bet. He's cruel to MT - reminding her of her infidelity by bringing her husband up after their first night together,, his irritation at her for sending her husband the letter. The game is still the most important thing to him. Even after he realizes he has lost MT, he is still playing the game with MM though now it is a battle. Only after his final failure (bringing about Cecile's escape) does he realize he's lost. Which brings up a new thought for me - just something else to debate. Does he allow his death because he's lost the only love he's ever felt as I said above. Or is it the only way he can finally beat MM? (Emma) Don't forget about that bet with MM, V would've had to be a "little Monk" had he lost. Which makes me wonder - would he have honored the bet if he had lost? Methinks not. Lovely cover page, Karen and Ann. I never realized Meg could look so pretty. I had no such reservations about our DB.

Well Heide, I was going to say that I didn't think V truly loved MT, but you present a convincing argument and food for thought. I think he was moved that she loved him in a true fashion that he may never have felt before. And that by being moved by her love he allowed himself to care and realize what a horrid thing he had done to her. I suspect remorse was a somewhat new feeling for him. But did he love her? Maybe a little, but I think he would have gotten bored with her in a week if he'd tried a re ationship with her. (Kirsten) And V plays his role to perfection, he is Mr. Right to everyone (reminds me of Jack in AZ): Very interesting point. V is somewhat like Jack Carney (except not quite as nuts!) Karen and Ann, I second Heide's comment. Thanks for the beautiful cover page. Much drooling potential over that photo, I assure you :-)

(Kristen) there is a lot of stumbling around in V: V jumping into the water, V running up the stairs to see MT... even V's horse is stumbling crossing the water on his way to Paris to see MT. Thank you for the visuals, I think that's part of V's charms, his boyish energy. (Heide) would he have honored the bet if he had lost? Methinks not. And I thought he was a gentleman. But V was so sure of winning. (Heide) Lovely cover page, Karen and Ann. I never realized Meg could look so pretty. I had no such reservations about our DB. Yes, just lovely, so this is the Meg DB fell for... (Jana)But did he love her? Maybe a little, but I think he would have gotten bored with her in a week if he'd tried a reationship with her. I agree, V seem to be only interested in fun and games, and the prusuit of women, relationships do not interest him.

I've really enjoyed reading this dicussion, even though I haven't contributed to it! Many thanks! And now a dumbo question.....what were Valmont's motives when he tried to persuade Cecile to run away with him and told her that Daunceny was waiting in the country for her. I was never able to work this one out. What was he planning to do? Best scene for me, by the way, is the magnificent dance sequence with the four women in his life!

(Bethan) what were Valmont's motives when he tried to persuade Cecile to run away with him and told her that Daunceny was waiting in the country for her. I was never able to work this one out. What was he planning to do? I'm just guessing, but if V spirited Cecile away, the wedding would never take place. Cecile's reputation would become known and Gercourt wouldn't marry her and MM's big revenge (having G marry a nonvirgin) would never happen. Kristen, so many interesting points that you made in comparing and contrasting the book and the two movies. I have some comments but haven't had the time. BTW, there are no dumbo questions. Just as there are no details too small or insignificant concerning CF that we can't discuss. Isn't that right, ladies? I want to hear it all and talk about it all. ;-)

(Emma) Thank you for the visuals Ah yes, the visuals. Something we haven't talked of too much yet. Where shall I begin? Those sidelong glances at Cecile when he is first introduced to her? Not really interested but she is female and he enjoys making her uncomfortable. Okay Karen, I know his hair looks like octopus tentacles in this one but doesn't he look a bit sexy all soaking wet (again) when he enters his room to change and finds MM there? Shirt soaked through...starts to change. Too bad he didn't finish. Didn't y'all get a little thrill when he hoists Meg (I mean MT) up on the horse with him. So strong, so effortless...okay, he grunted a bit. There, I've said it, it's the "basics" of these films I really enjoy. ANd I'm not even sheepish about it. Baaaaa!

(Heide) Didn't y'all get a little thrill when he hoists Meg (I mean MT) up on the horse with him. So strong, so effortless... ...V and MT on the horse...the dancing that follows is quite charming, too bad she had to spoil it by reading that letter. Loved his walk, those long strides. (cheap thrill :-)

(Heide) Didn't y'all get a little thrill when he hoists Meg (I mean MT) up on the horse with him. So strong, so effortless...okay, he grunted a bit. That particular move I have replayed and replayed and still can't figure out how they did it. (MT's in a harness and there's a little man on the other side of the horse with crane.) What grunt??? Will I have to watch it again???

Overall (Karen) The book that Evelyn mention, while out of print, is available via used book �additional Book Info: Valmont, Penguin edition, translated by P.W.K. Stone. Must be published 1989. I found this one at Amazon.com, if anybody still needs it. But all my comments are just about V the film for now. Movies and books have different requirements for their stories. I can�t remember if we talked about his, but my favorite example is always "The Firm". Completely different in many ways. I�m going to read Laclos after I catch up, see how they compare, then see DL. (Evelyn)...photography, but I thought this was shot in a muted color- "ochre".Lent itself to the unpredictable undercurrent running through the plot . Cheryl would you pl. tell us of this photographic technique...if there was one? How observant! I have been waiting to be in touch with a cameraman who was on the set. I think he�s in NY soon. This, and other plans I had, I didn�t want to mention because if they didn�t work out I�d be bummed. (Moon)�was that a full wig he wore? When he is all wet I say yes, otherwise it seems that it could just be the pony tail. Whatever was needed. Hair grows over several weeks, and most of the interiors were shot at the end in Paris. (Moon)Agree with Evelyn wholeheartedly about the cinematography, sets and costumes. Very opulent production. Me too. And I�m always impressed by something different. A stunning amount of work, a stunning result. (Moon)During the film when the above seduction is taking place, did you notice the film gets very grainy on that close up? I wonder if Milos filmed it as a wider shot but then changed his mind and had to zoom in and re-film directly from the film. Cheryl, can you answer this? Will put this on my list of questions for the cameraman. Some things are etched in my mind (the people things), and some things I find I�m really wrong about when I check back with people or documents. (Cheryl) And that's the problem with the script, and that's the problem Colin had with the part, IMHO. Passive characters don't work... (Emma)I'm not sure it's the passivity that's the problem, but that Forman left so much out.. I finally put this notion of mine at the end, to think about in a "Conclusions" or "Summaries" section. It�s just there, to me, in the film, even after all these years. To start with, I rethought the sequences in the film. Now they look something like this to me: 1. MM discovers her lover is marrying Cecile 2. MM chooses V for revenge, but he�s pursuing MT 3. MM changes to CD for revenge, but MV discovers the liason 4. MM brings C to V, but MT confesses her attraction to V 5. V deflowers C and opposes C�s marriage, then pursues MT 6. V leaves MT, urges C�s marriage to D 7. MM and V challenge each other; V returns to MT 8. V returns to MM, but MM revenges herself on him So if I look at who instigated things, it really was MM. If she hadn�t wanted C to be deflowered (such an odd term), she�d never have made the bet with V. There wouldn�t have been any C or CD, no duel, and all we�d have is that maybe she�d be jealous of MT�s place in V�s heart. Or whatever. It also makes sense to talk about Milos� intentions and influences for the film separately from the sequences, since there were so many comments on them. Basically, my reasons are many, and it�s too confusing for me to jump around. But I tried to copy in relevant posts into my sections.

Milos My question to him would be :why did he feel that an accent was necessary for the lead male and not for the others? �The script too vernacular for the period.? V had to have as much class as could be bestowed on him in a modern film and still be watchable by medium-brow audiences. M likes accessible films, so he likes them in accessible language. English is his second language (or more, if you count Russian and whatever else he had to learn before left Czechoslovakia), and although he�s fluent and appreciates a well-written sentence (Salieri on Mozart�s music), he�s not going to choose sentence structures or words that are arcane. It wouldn�t serve him, or th goal of having a film watched by as many people as possible. He�s proud of bringing Mozart to the masses and that sort of thing. And to have made the language in V more aristocratic would have not only put some of the audience off, but would have distanced them from us; we could say, these people play these games, but we do not. Most of the problems are more universal in the film than in the book (I gather)--MT's problem is that of every married woman's. (Moon Dreams) Annette�s movie as well and she is wonderful. How could Milos have possibly considered Michelle P. for the role? She would have been, to his eye, as classy as Colin. We would have had more of a sense of their equality, desirability and complicity. My only casting question in V is Meg Tilly. And to think that Milos had wanted her to play Mozart�s wife in Amadeus baffles me as well. Amadeus was perfectly cast. I thought so too. There�s always the cost/benefit analysis. But you can�t argue with anybody who�s smitten. Colin and the old matron who played his aunt were absolutely charming and quite funny too. I loved her lines. That�s one of the many things I love about M's films--Bringing a wide variety of characters to the screen, as do many European and Asian directors. American movies would have you think the world is populated with 2 to 30 year olds, along with Harrison Ford, Jack Nicholson, and the usual male suspects. There was an old Star Trek (the original series) episode about a society where everybody dies at 30� (Renate) But we are not supposed to hate her for her speaking manners, are we?! :-p Which she uses, if I remember right, mainly when trying to be seducing: to Cecile and to Valmont. ???�It's just too obvious and unnatural, IMO, she could also wear a tag "Look what a great seductress I am". I prefer the "less is more - acting school". I've said that too, and usually that�s M�s strength, why I treasure my time with him so. But when it comes to women, subtlety is not always a virtue with him. Maybe because he grew up backstage. And he is of a certain age, and a certain place. (heide) (Cheryl) So it�s MM�s film, really, but it�s called Valmont, so that�s confusing. Agree it's confusing. Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? arami)Maybe simply because he was a more sympathetic character, more complex and capable of reform, and she was ultimately just a scheming bitch? ;-) According to M. He really thinks men, all of them, really don�t cause that much harm, unless of course they�re Nazis or Communists. Political oppression is a bad thing, but there�s no such thing as sexual oppression or even annoyance. He wonders if they can change, and in the film, he's open to the possiblity, but MM tells him no, they can't. With friends like that... (Evelyn)(Renate) Just a thought: This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Passion means you care, and who wants to do that? It was interesting to see this interpretation by Milos Forman. For CF plays Valmont as a "bonhomie with a big libido" rather than a despicable predator. My question to Cheryl (when you have time) : Did you get any knowledge of how CF personally interpreted the character of Valmont.? Did he and MF see "eye -to -eye ? Even if you�re sleeping with an actor (if he/she knows what they're doing), you don�t know how they prepare their roles, or even what they think about their characters. You see the actions. So I know only what I observed on set, but I had been watching M direct for months prior to this and hearing his critiques of us directing and actors acting. A number of films have "soft" endings (AMITC, for one,) this one didn�t make as much sense as it could have. The end was based on an experience M had, and that makes it difficult for the actor playing an alter ego. The writer/director really thinks something is in the story, but it�s not, to a strangers' eyes and ears. An example of something which was food for thought was the tavern scene, as I mentioned months ago. All the extras from MT�s exterior market scene are there, an interesting lot. It was �t clear what M wanted from CF, and CF was frustrated. In this sequence, he�s pretty much decided to kill himself�suicide by duel. There�s the power we see when he charges Danceny. When people decide to kill themselves, usually they�re calm, because everything will be ok soon. But there�s also generally an upswing; friends think the person is strong and in charge of their lives again. From the time V slaps MM and the duel papers are served on him, the story just unravels. M is usually excruciatingly clear to actors, but this time it didn�t hang together. V didn�t have to be more despicable or more the predator, just sharper. And that�s what I saw bubbling up in a great many takes (different shots, different scenes.) Only a few people in a production can judge how well something's going by what they see on the set�-famously, if the crew laughs while you�re making a comedy, you�re in trouble. Many things come together to make a sequence work. But how to play the ending was in debate. I'd like to hink about that when I get there I (seq. 8) (Karen)(Cheryl) He thinks most men are great guys. He thinks men simply cannot cause as much harm to women as women can to men. With the exception of a Loreena Bobbit, I don't agree at all with that last statement. B-b-but, in Forman's defense, DL was also written by a man. ;-) You don�t think men can�t cause as much harm, or you don�t think Milos thinks that?

away, italics!

away, italics! Something I always wanted to ask: Why is it called "italics"? Why not, lets say, "greeks", or "germans" or "frenchies"... ?

Re: The significance of Valmont's accent in casting of the role: Let me ask again: Could someone please at last quote what Milos Forman himself wrote about it, instead of repeating what one or another thinks he meant?

BTW, Renate: they're called italics, because they were introduced to printing by an Italian. One Aldo Manuzio from Venice.

(Bethan) Best scene for me, by the way, is the magnificent dance sequence with the four women in his life! I love this scene also. Favorite moment - at the end of the dance with MTwhen he turns her into him and his arms are around her with their cheeks almost touching. V. romantic indeed. (Heide) Didn't y'all get a little thrill when he hoists Meg (I mean MT) up on the horse with him. So strong, so effortless...okay, he grunted a bit. Hon, don't you know it? I can't think of anything intellectual to add to this discussion but will second your motion as to the delights of this particular scene :-).

1. MM discovers her lover is marrying Cecile (Heide)She had a tough role and perhaps would have been stronger if she could have made the audience feel some understanding or sympathy for her character. Or is that going completely against Laclos's intention? One of my favorite scenes (ending that sequence) is when MM discovers who C will marry. Cecile begs MM to find out who her husband is to be. MM says she'll try. It�s amazing to me what she goes through in this sequence. She faces a lover who tells her maybe she should get another lover; he doesn�t know when he will see her again. She finds that her lover is marrying Cecile, and that she is the one who is known to MV and perhaps others as "a mistress who�s hard to get rid of and a little �" I liked th look on AB�s face when Gercourt turns around, and the interchange between JJ and AB. I don�t know what sort of person she is yet, but what a raw deal. I can't remember if I felt sympathy the first time I saw this scene, but I did when I saw it again recently.

2. MM chooses V for revenge, but he�s pursuing MT (Moon Dreams) Does Valmont have intentions of seducing Madame de Tourvel before Madame de Merteuil comes into the picture Seems like a lark to me.

3. MM changes to CD for revenge, but MV discovers the liason (Moon)Not play the part, she would have been a virgin on her wedding night had it not been for MM inciting V to play his seduction game with her. (Karen)I saw Cecile as being very eager. She may have gotten Danceny to do more than just leave her notes in the harp with or without MM's intervention. True, but hard to know what from the movie. I agree with comments that FB was the perfect child/woman, shifting back and forth between budding womanhood and awkward teenager. She was also fresh from the convent. Had she not been, she would have been so much more skilled in her relations with men and Danceny, had D even been interesting to her at that point. I loved the way they swapped letters in the hideaway and just stood there, reading them. And him correcting her playing, even there. And his twelve verses. The clumsiness, C slipping as she comes back with the note from the harp and D dropping his sword, his harp, etc. D�s exit went on a little too long for me, but the agony of the situation is that of a boy/man. The exit sets up such a contrast with later. I have this clumsy-exit image in the back of my mind, and then I see him fight Gercourt. Then I see him try to give V a way out of the duel, but from his outing with Gercourt I know that he�s not one to be pushed around. Pushing him around is the onl possibility in V's besotted state, and however much I want there to be another way out, it�s inevitable that the clumsy harp-dropper will kill V quickly. D�s accent bothered me�too American, jarring.

4. MM brings C to V, but MT confesses attraction to V (Heide)Does anyone know what Valmont says to his aunt before he leaves for Paris?� Am I correct in making out the last words as "Trust me."? Great touch ;-) The seduction sequence. What an awfully long way V, MT, and MM go. By the end, MM realizes V feels something for MT which is new to her, and she�s jealous of MT. MT breaks down and actually tells V she�s his for the taking. I�m not sure what V�s up to in the last scene, and that�s great, but I do, like MM, believe he cares for her. That doesn�t mean he will leave MT alone, but he isn�t going to crush her, either. Kindness from a predator has an overwhelming effect. After his dance with MT�oh my. Had I there that evening, I�d have been annoyed. Since I wasn�t, I can imagine such a pas de deux in my future. Someone mentioned the archery scene. It seemed flat to me, and I wish it didn�t. However, when CF says, walking away, "I don�t know," it�s the first time I think there may be something interesting in this guy. I still think it�s all a scheme, but there�s a niggle of a thought that it might be more interesting than that.

5. V deflowers C, opposes C�s marriage, and pursues MT I still would have done the letter-writing scene differently, but CF was perfect. It�s fun to see V taunting MM (and incidentally; sewing the seeds of his future destruction by outraging MV) by championing marriages of love. Not everyone looks good on a horse. Heartstopping scene: when MT takes off her scarlet hood and V steps into the room. Even though we saw him racing off, it was a magnificent surprise. Another "oh my." I love the twist in the breakfast scene�V has done what MM wants, but he could still deny her her victory if Cecile doesn�t marry Gercourt. A lively scene. "Where is everybody?" ;-)

D�s accent bothered me�too American, jarring. Not important enough a character to attach too much significance to it, apparently. According to MF.

He also frolicked w/ ET. How could we take him seriously?

(Laura) He also frolicked w/ET. How could we take him seriously? I knew there was something that bothered me about him. Touche, Laura. (Cheryl)4. MM brings C to V, but MT confesses attraction to V...when CF says, walking away, "I don�t know," it�s the first time I think there may be something interesting in this guy. I still think it�s all a scheme, but there�s a niggle of a thought that it might be more interesting than that. One of my favorite scenes for precisely that reason. We don't know if it's part of his game or if he's let his mask drop. MT-"Why do you keep trying?" V-"I don't even know"... and walks away. (Cheryl) Heartstopping scene: when MT takes off her scarlet hood and V steps into the room. Even though we saw him racing off, it was a magnificent surprise. Another "oh my." Oh my, I do agree. I love a man on a mission. Reminds me of Darcy, the avenging angel.

Re: The significance of Valmont's accent in casting of the role: Let me ask again: Could someone please at last quote what Milos Forman himself wrote about it, instead of repeating what one or another thinks he meant? This is from MF's book. The only mention of casting CF.(On Casting) "I found it much harder to cast Valmont. I auditioned many American actors and several of them had the combination of raw virility, awareness, and quick-thinking charm that I associated with the role, but their accents just didn't go with the gold-embroidered waistcoats, the filigreed swords, Valmont's ingrained fine manners. I saw the man as an aristocrat who was absolutely secure in his bloodlines and class; American voices undermined that impression to my immigrant ear. I finally reconciled myself t the fact that I'd only accept an Englishman in the role and concentrated my casting efforts on the Eastern shores of the Atlantic, where I finally chose Colin Firth, a young Englishman who had played a variety of roles in British films." [p.285] "Madame de Tournvel was easy to cast. I immediately saw Meg Tilly as the virtuous wife whom Valmont seduces on a dare and for whom he falls hard." [p.285] Other tidbits:"Before I can direct a scene, I have to tie it somehow to my own frame of reference. I need to test the authenticity of the characters and their behavior against something I myself have felt or experienced. Understanding the character of Valmont in Les Liaisons Dangereuses wasn't difficult. All my life, I've had relationships with women-some long, some brief. I have spent a lot of time in pursuit of the intoxication and grace that occurs when the whole world falls awa from you and your lover. This state, by necessity, never lasts, but while it does, it is like nothing else." [p.283] "In my version of the story, Valmont searches for this very feeling. He is a womanizer, a libertine with a long history of conquests, but only because he is seeking a deeper relationship. When he finds it, ironically with Madame de Tourvel, the prudish wife of a judge, it scares him so much that he drives her away and throws himself into a suicidal duel." [p.283] "Valmont's longest-lasting relationship in the book, however, is with his female counterpart, Madame de Merteuil. She has wit, charm, and as much experience with the opposite sex as he. She is his equal in all things. He boasts, competes, and confides in her, but the real nature of their relationship in the book remains enigmatic: the relationship between Valmont and Merteuil is like the strange flirtation that often develops between a director and his leading lady. At least that's what has always hap ened to me." [p.284]

Thank you, Karen - I auditioned many American actors and several of them had the combination of raw virility, awareness, and quick-thinking charm that I associated with the role, but their accents just didn't go with the gold-embroidered waistcoats,... Ah, so he found an actor who had not only the required accent but also the required combination...virility, awareness, and quick-thinking charm. What a find. I hope Evelyn returns before this discussion winds down to a crawl. Not that I don't appreciate the wit, wisdom, and lust that has already been expressed but I miss her comments as well as a few others who haven't posted. I'm not naming names.

Thanks Karen, v. interesting. I have not reafd the book and appreciate these insights. "Valmont's longest-lasting relationship in the book, however, is with his female counterpart, Madame de Merteuil. She has wit, charm, and as much experience with the opposite sex as he. She is his equal in all things. He boasts, competes, and confides in her, but the real nature of their relationship in the book remains enigmatic: the relationship between Valmont and Merteuil is like the strange flirtation that often develops between a director and his leading lady. At least that's what has always happened to me." So even MF says that V loves MM. Just like the director falling for his leading lady. "Madame de Tournvel was easy to cast. I immediately saw Meg Tilly as the virtuous wife whom Valmont seduces on a dare and for whom he falls hard." We can thank MF for getting them together.

(Moon) So even MF says that V loves MM. Just like the director falling for his leading lady. No, he calls it a "strange flirtation." This part--from the MT quote--sounds more like love to me: "he is seeking a deeper relationship. When he finds it, ironically with Madame de Tourvel...it scares him so much that he drives her away and throws himself into a suicidal duel." As Kirsten discussed many a post ago, the book and the film Valmont are different. I was watching the American Masters program on Forman and it is interesting how he discusses how he remembered the book so differently. It did become a different story. Since there are questions about his casting of ET's little buddy as CD, I will type those up for you. Maybe tomorrow. Also, I owe you, Moon, that evidence from the book. I haven't forgotten. Where are you Evelyn? Aren't you back? Catching up with this great discussion?

(Karen), This part--from the MT quote--sounds more like love to me: "he is seeking a deeper relationship. When he finds it, ironically with Madame de Tourvel...it scares him so much that he drives her away and throws himself into a suicidal duel." V seems to be v. happy with the way he is. Why would he seek a deeper relantionship? I did not get this from the film. Also his suicidal duel is not solely driven by by MT, MM has her part in it too.

From the sidelines again.... Heide, don't be disheartened by the lack of contributors! The standard of this discussion is so high that I'm just sitting back and enjoying it! Keep up the good work!

(Karen), This part--from the MT quote--sounds more like love to me: "he is seeking a deeper relationship. When he finds it, ironically with Madame de Tourvel...it scares him so much that he drives her away and throws himself into a suicidal duel." (Moon Dreams)V seems to be v. happy with the way he is. Why would he seek a deeper relantionship? I did not get this from the film. Also his suicidal duel is not solely driven by by MT, MM has her part in it too. That's my feeling too, Moon Dreams. This is the split I see, between what MF intends (intended) to do, what he thought he did, and how it seems to the viewer. I don't believe MF is telling the truth, and as we've discussed re CF, why should he? I rarely believe what any experienced public figure says, and when they do, I'm extremely appreciative, even if I don't like what they say. MF knows most people wouldn't want a main character who was a libertine and not interested in changing. Didn't someone sa in Laclos' book that V had his own revenge motive for getting involved in MM's scheme? Not a desire for a better character, not a desire for any kind of relationship at all (transcendent, kinky, or otherwise). So, the "seeking a deeper relationship" part I think is absurd, unless it's the kind of deeper relationship you can have with a Playboy Bunny. Which is not to be dismissed, as long as the context is clear. What he says he did and what I see are far apart, further apart than with any other of his films. For V to feel for MT I did see, and that it bothered him was pretty clear. Evelyn!! She's the one who wanted to do V next!! I hope she returns!! I miss you Evelyn!!

I hope it's OK to jump in here. I've been enjoying the Valmont discussion v. much. It's one of my favorite period dramas. For some reason I really hated DL. I think I never accepted that hundreds of women slept with JM. He is entirely too creepy. My favorite scene in Valmont was the letter writing scene. That voice was so sexy that I was completely ready to be seduced. Valmont could give Darcy a few pointers on writing letters. Just a note on the casting of Valmont-earlier this year or last year, I read in the people section of the newspaper that David Duchovny lost the role of Valmont to Colin Firth. When I read this I remember thinking that losing this role must have really bothered DD because he was mentioning it so many years later. I'm grateful that he did because I don't think DD has the emotional range in his acting that CF does.

Of course, you may jump in Sue--especially when you have *delicious* little tidbits like this one. David Duchovny!? You're so right, he would have failed miserably. He has *no* range to speak of. I feel the same way about JM--physically, but maybe he had extra special talents that the ladies gossiped about. Such skills could overcome a rather unattractive countenance. ;-) Re Casting: The part about casting Cecile and Danceny wasn't worth retyping. All he wanted to do was keep the ages true to the book. "That two teenagers receive their sentimental education in the beds of the principals, and I was resolved to keep the age of the actors as low as it was in the novel because of real innocence--the curiosity, the excitability, the bluffing and the sexual clumsiness--is very hard to recapture once it has gone." Re: Love (of the Valmont type) This is from Letter No. 52--V to MT, which he does not send first to MM to preview as he did with Letter No. 47 and then invites her to have a good laugh at what he has written to MT: "What after all, was I guilty of but a failure to struggle against the whirlpool into which I had been cast? I came into society young and inexperienced; I was passed, so to speak, from hand to hand by a series of women all of whom, in their readiness to succumb, seemed in a hurry to anticipate what they felt would inevitably be an unfavourable opinion of themselves. Was it for me to set an example of resistance, when no resistance was offered me? Should I have punished myself for momentary aberrations to which very often I had been encouraged, by promising fidelity which would certainly have been unnecessary, and could only have been regarded as ridiculous? Pah! What else but breaking it off immediately can excuse a shameful connexion? "Yet I think I may say that this disorder of the senses--perhaps, too, it was inflamed vanity--never touched my heart. My heart was made for love: intrigue might serve for distraction, it was never my whole concern. I was surrounded by seductive but contemptible creatures; none of them could reach my soul. I was offered pleasure: I sought virtue. At length, because I happened to be fastidious and sensitive, I began to think myself inconstant. "When I met you my eyes were opened: I soon realized that love depends for its charms on qualities of the soul: only they can provoke it to an excess which only they can excuse. And finally I found that it was as impossible for me to keep from loving you as it would be to love anyone but you. "You see, Madame, to what sort of heart you are afraid to yield, the heart whose fate it is for you to determine. Whatever the destiny you hold in store for it, you will never alter the feelings by which it is bound to you. They are as unchanging as the virtues that gave them being." ******** Yes, he's a great letter writer!! Maybe I'm just too much of a softie and am reading way too much into these words.

Since I've taken the plunge on this board, I will relate one other Valmont related item. In this month's Movieline magazine there was an article on Annette Bening and the author went on about how fantastic she was as MM. In the same issue there was a little article on Fairuza Balk and listed some of her credits but no mention of Valmont. Article says she is 24,but the picture of her looks pretty scary and she looks about 10 years older. Two Valmont actors in one issue. Wow! Too bad it wasn't CF.

David Duchovny lost the role of Valmont to Colin Firth And so did Richard E. Grant (and quite a bunch of others) - if anyone wants to know.

I like Richard E. Grant. he's wonderful!!!

Since Valmont is on its last legs, how about a new film November 15? Some of us have used up too many precious brain cells on Valmont so, as Karen suggests, how about some Colin-lite? Any suggestions?

Lighter than Fever Pitch?

Hmmm how about Circle of Friends?

Re: next film discussion....(Laura) Hmmm how about Circle of Friends? That's not Colin-lite....all that Catholic stuff!! Let's decide soon though...so some of us can read the corresponding book. Actually, this guy hasn't done anything humorous except for FP. Camille is short...but talk about a "downer". Anyway, I picked Valmont so I'll go along with the crowd. ..

(Bethan)The standard of this discussion is so high that I'm just sitting back and enjoying it! You said it in a nutshell, Bethan. (No pun intended). I have just finished reading the 70 postings that you all made while I was gone...really, the discussion got better and better. I have nothing to add. I am awed.

How about Dutch Girls?

Sounds good to me :-) When do we start?

I HATED Dutch Girls!!!! Well, was extremely hung over when watched and I DON'T own it. Karen, dear, you know how much I respect you:)

(Laura) I HATED Dutch Girls!!!! Sometimes after a film discussion I change my mind.... I hated Fever Pitch...(don't kill me)... at first. And while it is not among my CF faves...I learned to appreciate the nuances of the film . (Though I still think it's a football film) :-) Let's go for it,Ahuntie Laura. Be a sweet sport.

Where will I get Dutch Girls??? Suggestions? I guess I'll just follow everyone's thought on this one.

(Evelyn)Let's go for it,Ahuntie Laura. Be a sweet sport. *Big Whine* But I don't own it:( Karen, dear;) hee hee.

I don't have it either, so I'll hum along as well. HOTP is kinda funny; did ya'll ever do that? Maybe next or next?

Well, sports fans, DG is available, used VHS, for $6.99 at Reel.com. Availability 2-3 days.

A help to make up your mind:

"I give to you and you give to me"....Neil, honey!! How about one in his cute shorts?

(Karen)How about one in his cute shorts? His thighs are thinner in this film.....they really beefed up those thighs in P&P. Thanks Cheryle for sleuthing DG copies.

Thighs? In shorts? Where?! :-p,,, I have to watch DG - ooops - Dutch Girls - soon. Karen, I'm afraid I have no such pics, but add some others soon to the archives. Oh, if only Nan would find time to start her Snappy machine and capture my favourite looks, i.e. his look and turning of the head before Lyndon Baines says "I'm off to the bog...". One of the greatest understated comedy moments, accentuated by the immediately following most disgusting comedy moment ever.... Meanwhile, and for some more warming up, here's a wealth of other Snappies on Sharon's page

Sorry I meant to take you to the Dutch Girls Killerlooks directly, but apparently this highly commercial page host doesn't work that way. You have to click "Killerlooks" and, what else, "Dutch Girls" to get there.

This is it, hopefully.

(Renate) Thighs? In shorts? Where?! :-p Remember, the game they play against the Dutch hockey club, when all the boys are only interested in going to the disco that night? They lose horribly as a result and are berated in the locker room afterward. Anyway, Colin (and the team) are wearing short shorts. yum yum If is not up at a site, then I fear someone needs to lock Nan in her apartment and get her to Snappify this and other *adorable* looks in DG and there are many. Angelic and other. ;-)

Sorry to cut in here Karen, but, what has happened to Swept Away? Lately, I've been thinking maybe a re-male of my Truffaut favorite: Jules et Jim. Colin and Jonathan might be well matched together, and, that would make Laura v.v. happy I'm sure. Just think of the lucky actress!!!

I could be that actress, Moon:) I'm cute, blonde, could fake a great Italian accent (okay total lie here:))

Thanks Renate for alerting us to the DG pics. Love the way he casually wears that scarf in the film.Do you think Sharon would mind if we used the pics during our discussion? FYI reel.com says they have Dutch Girls. Amazon says they can get the screenplay . I ordered it and also Apartment Zero and Circle of Friends. Talked to Nan tonight. She says hi to everybody. Busy, Busy. Lotsa' work and projects that have to be completed.Poor baby.

Was wondering if Moon and Cheryl have been successful at getting Dutch Girls. We can hold off the discussion until you (and others) do and have a real chance to capture the sweetness and innocence that is Neil Truelove. ;-) Does anyone need any help getting this film? If so, e-mail Karen and me at nomdedrool@yahoo.com

Didn't mean to leave you out, Laura, dear. But I think your hinting may have worked already?

Dutch Girls sounds like a good idea!

Dutch Girls would be great. I haven't seen it but I'd like to hear about it all the same. Tried to order it at Reel -thanks to Cheryl- and hope for the best. So I may be able to catch up later on.

From the Austen list: Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:58:43 -0500 From: Linda Veronika Troost Subject: My new book! Dear list, I am delighted to report that my book JANE AUSTEN IN HOLLYWOOD, edited with my husband, is now available (University Press of Kentucky, 1998). It's a collection of essays on the film and television versions of 1995-96. In general, the films come off pretty well so don't fear academic savaging of them. In fact, it's not aimed at academics alone, despite the University Press imprint. It's a book for lovers of Austen. Most bookstores both on- and off-line should be able to get it for you. Hope you enjoy it! My husband and I certainly loved working on it (and know you see why I have been so silent on the list lately--exhaustion!). Yours, Linda Troost (editor with Sayre Greenfield) PS. If you are in the Northern New Jersey area, Sayre and I will be on a channel 12 show "Jersey's Talking" on Friday the 13th of November at 8 pm. The topic will be the Austen movies. That's all I know. Ordered Dutch Girls, so go right ahead and I'll catch up.

Where's the fire? We can hold off on the Dutch Girls discussion until everyone who has ordered it from reel.com has it. (Kirsten)Tried to order it at Reel -thanks to Cheryl- and hope for the best. Was there a problem? If you didn't get an immediate confirmation from them, don't worry. They've slowed down ever since they got so big and started gobbling up other enterprises. Anyway, unless there's been a deluge of orders of DGs (as a result of the posting) and demand has outstripped supply, you should get a confirmation w/in a 2-3 days. Chin up.

Before we start on DG, I finally got this and didn't want all my effort to be *entirely* wasted!

Is that Cheryle talking with Milos? (heehee) Great pix--look at him smile! I plan to order my copy of DG, thanks for the info.

From Karen...the scanner .....congrats. We can hold off on the Dutch Girls discussion until everyone who has ordered from reel.com has it. I'm for that...let's wait. More funner when everyone joins in. "sides, I'm trying to get the book and....you got it....it's out of print.

(Moon) Is that Cheryle talking with Milos? (heehee) Is it? ;-)

If it is, I don't know how she resisted jumping in bed herself! Maybe with a long hat pin to stick Meg with. (Calma i bollenti spiriti)

Moon, very mean indeed, :)

Laura, I checked myself right away : (Calma i bollenti spiriti) see.

(Moon) Calma i bollenti spiriti) Translation, please. The Italian is really flying around today. Over on #97 Bethan is speaking Italian...I swear. (Hitting the Chardonnay, Beth?) I received Apartment Zero from reel.com today. Order if you don't have it. They must have them in stock. I got a used one..cheap...And a $5. phone card included.Have we ever discussed AZ on Drool?

(Evelyn) I received Apartment Zero from reel.com today. Order if you don't have it. Wow, that was fast. Haven't gotten my bona fide copy of DG (with scannable video jacket yet) :( They must have them in stock. Reel.com bought one of the video chains (Hollywood or West Coat Video, I forget, and they're even advertising on TV. Must have access to lots of old CF videos now. Have we ever discussed AZ on Drool? No, but I'm sure we will! ;-)

(Karen)Was there a problem? No, just thought there might be because it's a used version and if all droolers tried ... but received my shipping statement two days ago. So if the parcel won't get lost on it's way (as my HOTP tape first does) ... I'm optimistic to have it soon it my VCR:-) (Evelyne)Have we ever discussed AZ on Drool? I just saw again yesterday and the same question occurred to me. I think there's quite a lot to talk about. (Karen)No, but I'm sure we will! ;-) Glad to hear this, I'm looking forward to it.

I just paid $140 to the Internic to register these two names, firth.com and colinfirth.com. Time to crank up the pledge drive again! List of Domains Count Domain Name Invoice Number Amount Due 1 firth.com 2193175 70.00 2 colinfirth.com 2234835 70.00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for using the On-Line Payment System. If you wish to pay for another domain, click on the Start button. If you have completed your transactions, click on Quit to exit the system and visit the Network Solutions Home Page. So now they should kick back in. Sorry folks!

I just paid $140 to the Internic to register these two names, firth.com and colinfirth.com. Time to crank up the pledge drive again! This is a terrific website and the editors have employed a lot of effort. I congratulate them all. BUT Terry...Nan....Renate....Arami.... Pl. enlighten me. I was firmly told that firth.com didnot belong to Drool. That it is a separate entity. Why do they now need funds? Why come to Drool?

(Kirsten)Glad to hear this, I'm looking forward to it. There might be others ahead of it, though. Know there is a vocal contingent out there wanting to discuss MOTM...;-) Speak up now or forever hold your piece. Maybe not. ;-)

firth.com and colinfirth.com belong to the Spring. And they are keep alive by voluteer efforts and funding. Should we fund them by getting an advertiser? If so, who would be interested in putting ads on this site? A movie company?

(Karen)There might be others ahead of it, though. Know there is a vocal contingent out there wanting to discuss MOTM...;-) Speak up now or forever hold your piece. Maybe not. ;-) Well, in that case, I feel tempted to second the crowd voting for MOTM. I haven't seen it yet but wouldn't mind a discussion about a film I haven't seen. I read the book some months ago and was somehow intrigued by Stephen's character, so I'm very interested to hear about Colin's performance in that movie. Sorry, Karen, hope you won't stop playing with me now;-)

(Kirsten) Sorry, Karen, hope you won't stop playing with me now;-) I'm an EOP (equal opportunity player)! I'm for MOTM and for Tumbledown. They are both on my *want to* lists. (Suggest you check with Renate about MOTM.)

(Evelyn), Calma i bollenti spiriti) Translation, please. It's a more formal way of saying: Chill Out. I'm happy we're doing DG, don't have my copy yet, though. I did not like MOTM much.

(Moon) I did not like MOTM much. Them's fightin' words round here (for some people, that is)! ;-) But, hey, I didn't like A0. But let's not start that up again, just yet.... ;-P

Hey last night while chatting with Karen (in between coughs and blowing of nose) I happen to see in my local TV Guide that Ruth Rendell Mysteries were on. And Lo and behold, CF is on my screen!!! Made my daughter real happy, I can tell ya. MOTM was on Providence Public TV!!!! hmmm... wonder if they'll rebroadcast?

(Karen), But, hey, I didn't like A0. I really liked AO! It was a truly challenging film for an actor. The script was v. weird (especially the end:YUK!) But its different enough for my cinematic taste. My problem with MOTM is with the story, I don't care much for RR. But,I always look forward to seeing CF.

(Laura), Made my daughter real happy Have you hooked your daughter on CF? (Heehee) How does she feel about JF?

She thinks Mr Darcy is cuter:)

Maybe she says that to humour her mummy :)

Right, she really prefers Mr. Collins;p

Sneak Peek Shall we set a date to start?

I received my copy today! Where is Cheryle? She was so kind to alert us all for the purchase of the tape. Ready when you are!

Yeah!! Moon is ready. I'm hoping Cheryl and anyone else who ordered has their copy now too. How about November 22? We can start with 5 reasons why this video cover grossly (and I do mean the Americanized "gross") misrepresents the film. Porky's Goes to Amsterdam indeed.

The guy who designed that cover didn't see the film, for sure. I think maybe with used vids they do that . My Apartment Zero cover goes on and on about "starring Colin Firth (The English Patient)" Never mind that AZ was filmed eight years before TEP.

I'm here and OK. My RSI is flaring up and I have to ration my typing. Let's go! There have been so many funny things I've wanted to respond to but couldn't that day--work has to come first. Definitely looking forward to AZ as well; that one I have.

Cheryl and Kirsten - Have your copies arrived? Perhaps we should snap Riette to join us? A little Vincent Van Gogh tie-in? ;-)

(Karen)Cheryl and Kirsten - Have your copies arrived? No, not yet. But please don't wait for me. It may take weeks and weeks before I get it. Up to ten weeks from US to Europe, they mentioned at Reel, it has never taken such long time in the past, but who knows. And reading your comments before watching the film will only increase my anticipation. So, go on, please:-)

Not yet but any second. Please begin!

A snippet of *thigh* *sigh*

A glimpse of *thigh* *sigh*

How about starting our discussion on Monday?

Sure!!! seeing that I now HAVE the movie!

Mmm, can't wait. This will give me an excuse to re-watch DG over the Thanksgiving long weekend to look for tidbits to comment on. DG is definitely something to be thankful for :-)

Got the tape in the meantime and saw it several times since. And my first (amd last) thought was how terrible and embarrassing it must be to be a boy at that age. All those tortured, desperate souls. But Colin is gorgeous as Neil, so innocent and shy ... *sigh*

I know everyone is waiting on the edge of their seats for the answers to the questions but, since we're just starting Dutch Girls, could you (Arami or Renate) post those lovely and rare publicity pictures from your Treasure Trove?

I'm in exile because my pc crashed, so I cannot check anything - have to dig into my memory for the adresses of the still unlinked pics: Ok, I'll try:

Hope your pc gets well!

He looks great with the scarf wrapped around. Thanks Renate! Will be posting thoughts of DG's at a later date, too much going on right now on Topic 97. I am totally distracted!

Phew! It worked - to my greatest surprise. I watched DUTCH GIRLS again last night, and though my opinion of this film raises every time, I find it painful to watch in some passages, and I am not talking about the disgusting scenes (ick!). All the awkwardness of youth, the disappointments... it's a comedy, but with some painful truth. Something different: Some of you perhaps waiting for replies from me - please be patient. Though I have net access in exile while my pc is down, it is pretty inconvenient and never undisturbed to write from here. Got a nasty cold into the bargain, and have to go home now. *sniff*

Thanks for posting the pictures, Renate. They are gorgeous! (Renate) All the awkwardness of youth, the disappointments...it's a comedy, but with some painful truth. Definitely. Have just read the screenplay and the introductory essay by William Boyd about life in a boarding school. The awkwardness of youth is compounded by the *unreal* aspects of a monosexual existence. Won't dwell on the serious right now, but will start jotting down my favorite scenes, lines, etc. (Moon) I am totally distracted! Aren't we all. I need to rewatch DG and take some notes.

Thank you Renate....What a sensational Debut for our Dutch Girls discussion.(Hope you recover soon from your cold :-( Isn't that Wickham's shoulder that Colin is resting his head on?? (Grammarians pl. ignore sentence ending in preposition...am excited about doings on #97...cannot think straight....)

We're back up!! And I'll bet some of you didn't even know we were down. Adorable photos - even the close-ups turned out terrific. Those pink uniforms! Reminds me of Wickham's line to an uncomprehending Neil, "What girl's going to look at us in this get-up, you daft prat?". I still have to re-view the movie but forge ahead.

What,was there a Wickham too?

Not a Wickham - the Wickham! Adrian Lukis played one of the schoolboys.

the Wickham! Adrian Lukis played one of the schoolboys. Murray is his name. Is featured about four or five times times. Best line: when they're in the clubhouse disco ..and M. says "Get a load of that one in red" Simon: "Don't go a bundle on her face" M. "Who's looking at faces?" Have to watch DG again. Gets better every time.

I overheard friends discussing SIL on Tuesday--they had attended screening recently. They were quite surprised by my interest. Gentle readers...well, it's supposed to be pretty.

Oh, and I couldn't post till now. Sorry.

I mean, because we were down.

(Renate) All the awkwardness of youth, the disappointments... it's a comedy, but with some painful truth. That's exactly what I feel, watching Dutch Girls. There are a number of moments, which are quite familiar, remembering one's own teenage / school days: those school trips, where everybody is in utter excitement because boys and girls are spending all day together and the nights under the same roof - carefully housed in different wings [things are much easier in a �mixed school" ;-)). And the only interest is, how to escape without alarming the teacher in charge and rumours are flowering like flowers in th spring: who with whom?. The teachers eagerly trying to give the kids an minimum understanding of culture while their faces are glazed with boredom and the fatigue of the latest nuit blanche; the teachers trying to do a decent job, driven to despair by a load of teenagers behaving like silly toddlers. Or the awkward feeling when someone you're interested in is finally addressing you and you have not the slightest clue what to say or to do - let alone the guts to do it (a feeling not necessarily linked onl to teenage days;-/) So, it's not too difficult to sympathise with Neil - and the other lot, if you feel like it. That's all for today, later more, favourite moments etc.

Regardless of the fact that all the actors were too old to play at most 17-year-old school boys (Colin was 24 at the time of filming), I love watching Colin playing the awkward and naive Neil Truelove who lacks confidence in his own abilities in both sports as well as girls. He is just so good being shy around Romelia. You just want to oooh and aaah and put your arms around him and say poor baby. What a cutie, especially in his little shorts. In the opening sequence we get a closeup of Colin's eyes. I don't think we've ever seen them so big and so brown. Wow! Speaking of eyes, you shouldn't blink in the opening credits, otherwise you might miss the full monty. I know I did first time around. Another miss (I'm embarrassed to admit) was spotting Adrian Lukis initially. Now when I watch it, I wonder how could I have missed him in the headmaster's office as they receive their lecture on going to Amsterdam, but the first time it wasn't until t e disco scene when he orders the Bacardi and Cokes that I recognized him. He's a few inches taller than Colin, isn't he? From P&P, I had the impression they were the same height, but they don't exactly have too many scenes together there, do there? All of his scenes with Romelia are my favorites. In the first meeting, he is called over to the tree by the Sirens (love the vocalist in background) the light is streaming through the branches creating a magical effect. Then you have the backlighting on Romelia and Neil, illuminating their hair and faces. She smiles and stares at him unabashedly and he casts his eyes downward, hardly able to look at her, but he smiles totally embarrassed at each exchange of glances. He can't believe she is inviting hi to the disco. "Who? Me?" "Yes, you...and your friends, of course." Always the gentleman. "Yes, please." The first of his "yes pleases" as if someone had asked if he wanted another helping at the dinner table. Then there's that look of annoyance when Cone and Roote interrupt. I'm annoyed too! I don't want the camera to leave his adorable face. At the disco, Neil's watching of Romelia from the sidelines, shades of the Netherfield Ball's Darcycam. He can't get up the nerve to ask her to dance and his inaction allows Dundine to move in. (As Dundine tells Neil, "You've got to make your own chances" or "You can't just sit back and wait. Think someone will come along and say, 'Hey, I like you. Let's make the earth move, baby.'") One of my favorite sequences within this scene is when he's at the bar with Fforde (why two Fs anyone??) and is watchin Romelia dance with Dundine. Neil is lighting up a cigarette and she turns around and looks at him and gives him a superobvious wink. Then he exhales in the most *longing* gesture I've ever seen. Argh! Another choice sequence is Colin dancing with Romelia. Love his fast dancing; it's perfectly stiff and lacking in any rhythm. True to character. But the best is watching him react to Romelia, when she lassoes him with her arms to make sure he doesn't get away for the slow dance. He looks so uneasy. e's not sure what to do with his hands. There's a look of relief when she snuggles in against his shoulder. Finally, all's well with the world. **Love how Romelia keeps looking up at Neil as Dundine tries to whisk Neil away to go home. Looks like she's (1) disgusted with Dundine's interference and (2) trying to decide if she needs to do anything to ensure she will get to take him home with her!! At Romelia's house, now there's a scene for the books. She's tempting him again--siren music. When she takes off her sweater, could he be more stunned? Where are his eyes? Has a sweat broken out on his forehead? This is way more than he can process. More temptation: the lure of those so-called biscuits as she stretches up (braless) to reach the tin! R: "You want a biscuit?" Hungry?" N: "No thanks. R: "I am...You sure?" Sure, she's offering him a cookie. I dearly wanted to push him at her. Go for it Neil! What do you need an engraved invitation? At the bus when the team is leaving, I think Neil goes over to Romelia just to be polite because Neil is a polite kind of guy. When she tells him there was no *student friend* the look of anguish on Neil's face is palpable. His friend has betrayed him and he lost his chance with Romelia. Love how she puts her hand on his chest over his heart (wonder how fast it was beating?) and then he covers it with his own. Again, I just wanted to scream: "Kiss her Neil!" The longing, the pain, the anguish, the betr yal, the hatred. Colin's face shows it all. His body language as he strides past Dundine on the bus and slumps down by himself, looking dejected, but thinking all the while what to make of this experience. Actually, I blame it all on Mrs. Van Der Merwe. She should have sat down and had a little chat with Neil, taken him under her wing like a good mom. Did anyone think she was a dead ringer for Marion Ross (Mrs. Cunningham on Happy Days) in both appearance and her voice? Who buttons their pajamas all the way up to the top? Funniest Line: "Examine your footwear." (Kirsten) There are a number of moments, which are quite familiar...where everybody is in utter excitement because boys and girls are spending all day together and the nights under the same roof--carefully housed in different wings [things are much easier in a "mixed school"] I wonder though how much is lost on younger people today. I'm of the same age as the screenwriter but do not have the single-sex boarding school experience. And from what I remember, they weren't much easier even in mixed schools at that time (late 60s-early 70s).

The scenes Karen mentions between Romelia and Neil are my favorites too. He can't work up the nerve to do anything and if Dundine is in the picture, Neil just assumes he is the one Romelia would want anyway. Love the part when Dundine asks Romelia for a lift but she says, "Sorry, I am taking Neil." Then Neil mutters that Dundine can go but D. lets it go. 'Course then he says later that he hadn't expected much to have happened. Poor repressed boy. Neil in his buttoned-up pajamas, Neil all wrapped up in his bathrobe, Neil snug in his little twin bed with the covers pulled tightly under his chin. The other boys are looking at girlie magazines on the bus but not Neil. ANyone know what book he's reading? What part, if any, do you think Dundine played in Neil's weighted hockey stick? It's alluded to once in the film when D. says, "But he didn't have the magic stick, did he?" when talking about Neil's rival for the team. I wouldn't think Neil would do that on his own and he's so heavily influenced by Dundine. So then are we to gather that his flinging the hockey stick into the air at the end of the film not only signifies his rebellion against his rigid world but the end of his friendship, or at least his reliance, on Dundine? (Karen) Did anyone think she (Mrs. vd Merwe) was a dead ringer for Marion Ross (Mrs. Cunningham on Happy Days) in both appearance and her voice? LOL!! And what a gracious hostess.

Have you all noticed, that the producer is Sue B. (P&P and BBC). Apart from Wickham, there was a v. funny Bill Patterson (Yes, Minister series and The Witches: a film by my fav. Director Nicolas Roeg). It was v. well cast counting on our suspension of disbelief when it came to their ages. Neil Truelove, what a cool name! He did seem more like �puppylove� the sad eyes, his shyness, afterall, that�s all they talked about right: getting girls? Here was Romelia quite taken with him and what does he do? Nothing! Is it believable? When they are in her kitchen, no sweater, reaching for cookies, what holds him back? I�m baffled. Like you Karen, I wanted to push him to react. I did love the way he grabbed her hand when they were saying goodbye, it said so much. Funny how in the end, I felt he had more in common with his roomate than the other guys. Neil was disgusted by his behaviour but probably appreciated tha fact that he really acted on his word. He wanted the girl, he got the girl. BTW, he also had my fav. line �classique artist de pisoir�! Fav. look: the scarf. Can someone scan a pix, he looks so good! I was looking forward to his dancing but...not the disco type, and to that I add THANK HEAVENS! Loved the little sister, funny, smart and wicked.

This is one cute movie. And I wonder why the Disney Channel hasn�t picked it up ...it must be PG.(Well maybe Lyndon trying to shag Greetje...) Filmed in 1985, it must have been a poplular TV movie if it made the cover of TV Times. They guys might not look 17, but they act it...what a horny bunch . Poor Neil...a victim of the public school institutional mentality for ten years. Who could not express himself outside of his environment. Home life didn�t help: �I don�t hate it (school) because I�m far away from home....� Cheats to get on the hockey team. (BTW does anyone else think Dundine knew about the stick ...maybe even put him up to it?) Neil:�I thought Bucknell would get picked� Dundine:�Ah yes, but he didn�t have the magic stick , did he..� Dundine has a hold over him....his best friend. The team tour..only way to get away from school ? Sports prowess certainly helped in gaining popularity among peers. Agree that the close ups of the eyes are wonderful; they say so much. I can see why Sue Birdwistle was inspired to cast him as Mr. Darcy nine years later. Lots of Darcy looks...at the disco yearning to dance with Romelia... later at her house (lustful Darcy), meeting little Anna, the mischievous look he gives Lyndon, reminds me of the look as he approached Lizzie playing the piano at Rosings.And then there�s that scarf tied twice around his neck. Cast is excellent. Lyndon a little over the top at times (the houseguest from hell!) Mole is outstanding.But would someone pl translate the expression:�Milk it� The scene when Neil sees the girls is wonderful...almost dreamlike...misty...he can�t believe it. And at Romelia�s house when she offers him a biscuit, takes a bite herself...close-up of Neil watching her mouth reminded me of Mrs. Keach biting the apple. Favorite scene: when Romelia drops him off...he draws close to her...almost kisses her... loses his courage

(Heide) The other boys are looking at girlie magazines on the bus but not Neil. Anyone know what book he's reading? Author's name might be: Anthony ***ewell. Fill in the blanks. Means nothing to me. (Heide) What part, if any, do you think Dundine played in Neil's weighted hockey stick?I wouldn't think Neil would do that on his own. It hadn't occurred to me that Dundine told him to do it, although it's certainly possible. As his "best" friend, he would be aware of it. Are we to believe that Neil is that innocent, that pure? Don't know. He does share many of the normal vices, i.e., smoking, drinking, swearing. The stick represented (1) a way to meet girls and (2) being one of those guys on the team. Neil had to cheat because he lacks assurance in his own abilities to get on the team. (Heide) flinging the hockey stick...not only signifies his rebellion against his rigid world but the end of his friendship, or at least his reliance, on Dundine? He is going his own way, just as Lyndon advised. Neil is going to be his own man, an individual. He doesn't want to be like *them.* I take it as a given that their friendship is over. (Moon) When they are in her kitchen...what holds him back? I=m baffled. So is Neil. Remember how he asks Lyndon if he has discussions about girls/sex with his dad. He looks envious of their relationship. "The only thing my father ever told me was that 'women are a lifetime's study'...What if he's right? Because if he is, I've got off to a bloody slow start." Neil knows nothing and his father didn't help at all. (Moon) I did love the way he grabbed her hand when they were saying goodbye, it said so much. Do you think that she slipped her address in his breast pocket? Or is Neil going to address his letters to her in care of Kees or to Romelia, 20 miles outside of Amsterdam? (Moon) to that I add THANK HEAVENS! And for the fact that he never wears one of those beanies! On the subject of clothing, while I thought they all looked adorable in their pink sweaters or jumpers at hockey practice, is pink a representative school color in England or Scotland? Wouldn't be here. The pink blazers were a little difficult to take. (Evelyn) They guys might not look 17, but they act it...what a horny bunch. In other words, you found it realistic! ;-D (Evelyn) meeting little Anna, the mischievous look he gives Lyndon Yes, that was so cute. Lyndon was so hot to meet the *sister* and good old Neil wants to rub it in. (Moon) Loved the little sister, funny, smart and wicked. Loved what Lyndon said about her after that first dinner: "She's a right bitch, though...That little sprog Anna. I just hope that all Dutch girls won't be like her." (Evelyn) Lyndon a little over the top at times (the houseguest from hell!) Reminds me of another great line. When Dundine comes over to tell them the game has been canceled due to rain. He asks Lyndon, "What happened there?" To which Lyndon replies, "Oh...Winter." During that scene, Dundine did an excellent Eddie Haskell. (My mind must be in a time warp of old sitcoms.) "What a beautiful house you have...Very, very...tasteful. Very...Are you an interior designer by chance?" After those remarks, how else could Lyndon characterize Dundine to Neil at the outdoor cafe but as an oily bastard, a classic artiste du pissoir? (Evelyn) when Romelia drops him off...he draws close to her...almost kisses her...loses his courage. Wasn't that little move toward her subtle? Could barely tell that he was going to try. (Evelyn) Gets better every time. Agreed! ;-D

(Evelyn) Gets better every time. Agreed! ;-D YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that the business with the sister Anna is hysterical. I re-watched the first half again today and was reminded of one of my favorite lines. "Why don't you sit next to Anna, Lyndon Baines?" in that wicked voice. I also love the part where Neil is hanging around the disco trying to get courage to ask Romelia to dance. It reminds me of Darcy at the Netherfield Ball. All those intense looks. Mmmmm, in my best Lydia voice. (Evelyn) Gets better every time. (Karen) Agreed! ;-D Ditto! I'm enjoying it much more the second time around.

The only thing good about this movie is Giles' descent into madness! and that he is really cute! But overall, nah, I'll give you Anna, she's cute and my daughter thought she was very funny. The pink is way too jarring! I like James Wilby (Maurice is excellent!) Adrian Lukis is too nerdish. Sorry cannot be swayed on this one. I think Playmaker is better!

The only thing good about this movie is Giles' descent into madness! and that he is really cute! Thank you for quoting me, Laura. She is referring to *my* favorite thing about the whole movie, as anyone (Ann) can attest to. Watch for Giles in the background of various scenes, with the sunglasses, being carried out of the disco, taking a swig from a bottle, checking out the mags, etc. Loved when the other team's sponsor said that he knew his brother Mungo and asked how he was. Giles responds: "I'm afraid, he's in a sort of clinic..." By the end of the trip, poor Giles is hosting parties, having decided that hisd responsibility to become an example is too much and definitely not fair.

Add me to the list, Giles, is it! (Laura), I think Playmaker is better!. Now, you're ready to join Giles's brother in that clinic! I hope he's as cute as Giles. (heehee)

(Jana)my favorite lines. "Why don't you sit next to Anna, Lyndon Baines?" in that wicked voice. And the same mischievous smile that he gives Lizzy at the Netherfield Ball when her partner, Mr. Collins,goes the wrong way bumping into people. Giles "loses it" alright, Big Time. I wonder why Mole had the obsession with Van Gogh...obviously why he scheduled the tournament in Amsterdam. BTW, great shots of Amsterdam. Love it when they go into b/w cinematography. I've been down that "red light" district of Amsterdam....just like the movie.Only the girls aren't as attractive.The sit in the storefront windows.....polishing their nails, "scratching"...they didn't look fetching to me.

Cigarettes, swearing, drinking--just normal boyhood passges. Don't think cheating is so I continue to say Phil talked Neil into the weighted hockey stick. I'm sure Neil wants to get laid as badly as the other boys but being less "wordly" than suave-o Phil, would tend to follow his advice. What's with this reputation Dutch girls have anyway? Favorite secondary characters are Giles and Anna. Love when she screams at the top of the steps when Neil returns from Romelia's. Was it Moon who said she's "wicked"? I agree, she's a wicked imp.

(Heide), What's with this reputation Dutch girls have anyway? Not just Dutch girls but Scandinavian girls: I believe it has to do with having all that darkness: the night! They also drink heavily. Men of course love it.

Why is his name Lyndon Baines Jellicho? LBJ???? I asked Karen about it, and we couldn't figure out why he would be named after a US President?

Why is his name Lyndon Baines Jellicho? LBJ???? I asked Karen about it, and we couldn't figure out why he would be named after a US President? Maybe William Boyd is a Republican.

His name is Lyndon Baines Jellicoe. His parents are nouveaux riches with all the ostentation of elevated bumpkins and naming the kid after a US president was one example of it.

It's the noveaux riches obliges!

Please check 97 and tell me what to do!

Neil and his hockey stick, let's not let that theme go away. We can compare how his actions might have been influenced by Dundine and his stick to the point of his disgust for both. He then rids himself of both and is free. But, will he go back to Romelia? Probably yes.

I finally had time to re-watch the second half of DG. I loved the part at the disco when Neil finally got up the nerve to dance with Romelia. Boy our Neil just can't take a hint, can he? Poor Romey did just about everything but disrobe and still he didn't kiss her. I had also forgotten how hysterical the scene was when that hideous teacher of theirs lost some of the boys in the red light district. He was running back and forth trying to catch the strays and yelling at the rest of the boys to "look down, just look at your footwear" to avoid seeing anything suggestive. Too funny.

(Evelyn) I've been down that "red light" district of Amsterdam....just like the movie. Only the girls aren't as attractive. Isn't that the way it alway is? ;-) I only have vague memories of Amsterdam; it was so many years ago, but I did have to take a look at the red-light district! What did you think of the one and only prostitute who caught Mole's fancy? What do you think that tells us about his character? ;-) BTW, Evelyn, she would be considered 'zahftig' plus! (Laura) Why is his name Lyndon Baines Jellicho? LBJ? (Evelyn) Maybe William Boyd is a Republican. You're a riot, Evelyn!! (Arami) His parents are nouveaux riches with all the ostentation of elevated bumpkins and naming the kid after a US president was one example of it. Thank you, Arami, and thank goodness such trends don't exist to my knowledge in the US. Boyd certainly tossed in a number of LBJisms (toilet antics, does that ring a bell, Evelyn?) and stereotypical Texan stuff (cowboy boots, yi-haa) but what is interesting to me is that Lyndon becomes a sympathetic character despite his crude and crass behavior. You can see that he likes Neil and tries to help him. (BTW, Heide, he has new-found admiration for Neil when he discovers the doctored hockey stick!) At the cafe, he tries to get Neil to put the "Romelia-Phantom Boyfriend" thing into perspective. "Nasty one...But why don't you just come along anyway?" Then, "Forget the girl, forget the student. Just come along." By far the best thing is Lyndon's expression when he dances past Dundine and Romelia later. Wow, what a look! He knows he had him pegged. (Moon) his actions might have been influenced by Dundine and his stick to the point of his disgust for both. He then rids himself of both and is free. Very nice way to put it. They are both so related. The stick represented belonging to that so-called elite group, but I think it was also a means to an end--as Heide so succinctly put it--to get laid. As Mole is yelling to him: "Don't you dare, boy. Don't you dare...I'm warning you, Truelove. My word is law! My word is LAW!" Is this our Rebel With a Cause now? ;-) BTW, I'd give him a 10.0 on his hammer-throwing technique, but then again I'm a little biased, no different from an Olympics judge! (Jana) Poor Romey did just about everything but disrobe and still he didn't kiss her. Don't you wonder why she didn't kiss him? I don't think Romelia was too forward, but girls (especially at that age) are more mature than boys of any age! Maybe she would have on their second date had Dundine not interfered.

The Lyndon thing could also be a critique of the US. The British have always had had a love/hate relationship with the US. In fact at first, we are disgusted by Lyndon, later, he's the one that sticks by Neil, so we soften towards him. Wouldn't you agree?

Did I say sticks?

(Moon) sticks? Pun intended? Interesting point, Karen. How is our Neil going to be when he returns to school? I like the image of him as rebel. Hanging out with Lyndon, scoffing at the whole scene. His new found independence will be very attractive to the ladies, should he meet one, and maybe, just maybe, he'll recognize a come-on when he sees one. Interesting that Mole looks just like the little furry, blind creature. And hilarious when he tries to find a connection with his name to Van Gogh's name. Mole is "grockle" in Scottish dialect. "Now you say that quickly....Gogh: grockle..See what I'm driving at?" No mention yet of delectible Neil in jeans and his blue sweater in the bedroom scene? What a loss for Romelia. Yes, Karen, she must have put her address in Neil's pocket. She's not going to let that boy slip away. I shall be romantic too, Moon, and agree that he will see her again.

Very perceptive of Karen to bring out all of LBJ's characteristics in Lyndon. In fact at first, we are disgusted by Lyndon... Yeah, then at the end, after we realize the guy has lots of "streets smarts", and befriends Neil ...he doesn't seem so disgusting. But I still don't want him in my house:-) How about Romelia....is she a prototype of Dutch Girls? All girls? She sure sends out strong signals...but he's not connecting.

Why was I under the impression that when he got back to Scotland, he would leave school?

(Moon) But, will he go back to Romelia? Probably yes. (Heide) Yes, Karen, she must have put her address in Neil's pocket. She's not going to let that boy slip away. I shall be romantic too, Moon, and agree that he will see her again. I do not want to disturb your romantic feelings, but I don't see that. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to keep a relationship going through such a distance -let alone develop a relationship after such a short acquaintance- and at that age, and remember, he is living in a boarding school, how will he manage to see her? Or she him? She may have given him her address and they may write letters, but if they really meet again, not before years later. Sorry, girls, I'm not always so non-romantic - quite the contrary :-) (Jana) I had also forgotten how hysterical the scene was when that hideous teacher of theirs lost some of the boys in the red light district. He was running back and forth trying to catch the strays and yelling at the rest of the boys to "look down, just look at your footwear" to avoid seeing anything suggestive. Too funny. that's one of my favourite non-Colin scenes, when he says: �Keep calm! Eyes front! Don't panic! Stick together!" I really wonder, whom he wants to calm, to protect, who is panicking. Another one of my non-Colin favourites is Lyndon saying �Winter!" as if he would say, �What a question to ask, it's obvious, isn't it, leaves are falling." (Karen) Is this our Rebel With a Cause now? ;-) (Heide) Interesting point, Karen. How is our Neil going to be when he returns to school? I like the image of him as rebel. Hanging out with Lyndon, scoffing at the whole scene. His new found independence will be very attractive to the ladies, should he meet one, and maybe, just maybe, he'll recognize a come-on when he sees one. Hasn't he been a rebel before, but in secret? After all, he has been cheating with his hockey stick to get into the Amsterdam team. But, yes, I can well see him hanging out with Lyndon, ready for open rebellion, going his own way, like Lyndon put it. But all the same, I hope he will not adapt too much of his behaviour. (Heide) No mention yet of delectible Neil in jeans and his blue sweater in the bedroom scene? What a loss for Romelia Yes, isn't he gorgeous there, and that smile of him, so smashing ... *sigh*

Kirsten, at that age, it is so easy to travel, especially within Europe. Everyone I know did it in their youth, and it is a lot easier to travel when you actually know someone in the country. Sorry, but I stick (here I go again!), to what I said.

Way, way back someone asked what book Neil was reading in the coach. It must be a novel by Anthony Powell (who wrote the "Dance to the Music of Time" saga). Serious stuff! Neil really does look sweet seventeen! DG is one of my favourites....especially like the disco scene, and the "by the trees bathed in light" scene.

I'm sorry to disagree with you all....but aside from breaking with Dundine and the crowd (including "Wickham"), I don't think Neil will change much.Cheating with the hockey stick was instigated by Dundine, so they could go to Amsterdam on the tour. He came from a family thatdid not interact and did not show emotions (DNA), then he's been at schoolthat promoted regimentation for ten years. IMO This is part of his persona. He will always be shy, intimidated by women, and exceedingly polite.This doesn't nece sarily make Neill a loser.

(Moon) Kirsten, at that age, it is so easy to travel, especially within Europe. You're right, Moon, it's only that I imagine life in an English boarding school to be very restricted with not much time and freedom to travel around the world and the holidays I suppose are to be passed with the family, but I have to admit, that my image may be that of a very, very, very traditional one, and that I tend to forget that even in English boarding schools life may have changed. Sorry, my fault ;-) Besides, with my remark about the age I had not the possibilities of travelling in mind. Neil's only 17 and dreaming about �first love", longing for any opportunity to meet girls and to make his first experiences (my impression was that the guys were so excited about the trip because of the possibility to meet girls, not only Dutch girls - because of their reputation - but any girl). Do you think he feels like having his girlfriend miles and miles away, only able to see her every couple of weeks for a sho t weekend? I have another question related to that �will they meet again" one: Do you all think Neil is seriously fallen in love with Romelia? He is surely taken by her, she is nice, she is charming, she is kind and she makes his mouth water, and Neil is really depressed about the lost date with her. But isn't it possible that he is so sad about the �disaster" because of the lost opportunity, considering his remark about his slow start? Don't flame me, it's just a question, something that came into my mind - in my h art I do prefer the romantic version. (Evelyn) I'm sorry to disagree with you all.... Oh, I think I have to put things right, I mean try to make clear what I wanted to say: I'm with you, Evelyn. I didn't want say that Neil will turn out to be a second Lyndon. He will always be the well-mannered, charming 'boy'. With saying he is �ready for open rebellion" I carried things perhaps a bit too far. But I do imagine him hanging around more likely with Lyndon than with the rest of the crowd, respecting his (Lyndon's) readiness to confront people with �his own way" and appreciating that Lyndon is more honest and more a friend than his �supposed to be best one". Neil surely will nev r offend other people in a way Lyndon does at the van der Merve's but he now is certainly willing to go for some length for his �own way" - his, not Lyndon's. And of course, he's not a loser! (Wonder whether this is really any clearer than before, I'm always mixing up my thoughts, sorry) BTW, I'm not so sure whether it was really Dundine's suggestion with the hockey stick. Neil may have �confessed" it later to him as his �best friend", but if it was Dundine's idea, why wasn't he with him preparing it, and why didn't he try it himself, was he so convinced to be in the team with no doubt? Could see that film again and again, Colin's so cute.

(Kirsten) Don't flame me, it's just a question, something that came into my mind - First of all...let's get something straight....NO ONE flames anyone around here for voicing her opinion.And if anyone does...I'm the first to "defend her to the barricades", believe me. This is why I like this board...people are polite and cililized. Anyway, Kirsten, I know what you mean't to say...and I agree with you about the post-hurling-the stick-Neil. He will be different. As to falling in love...I think he had a crush on her...who wouldn't?...she gorgeous! And she approached him first.(Don't you love the scene when she calls out to him on the field and he looks around to see if she is calling someone else?) On the other hand one never knows where a crush can lead to.....:-)

that should be"people are polite and civilized". (Obviously yours truly should learn to proofread better...shocking!)

Just a couple of comments for now. Neil's 17. Isn't that about it for his boarding school experience. He'll be going to university soon. He may not be up in the northernmost reaches of Scotland then. Besides, if there's good road (short Hovercraft ride), he will later consider it *an easy distance* ;-) (Bethan) it must be a novel by Anthony Powell (who wrote the "Dance to the Music of Time" saga). Damn!! What eyesight you have!! If Bethan says she sees something (even behind a glass-block wall), we shouldn't doubt her. It's there!

Bethan) it must be a novel by Anthony Powell (who wrote the "Dance to the Music of Time" saga). (Karen)Damn!! What eyesight you have!! If Bethan says she sees something (even behind a glass-block wall), we shouldn't doubt her. It's there! New Title: Eagle- Eye- Bethan

I saw what I saw what I saw!! And I'll tell you one thing (forget about paperbacks).....he'll never ever do a shower scene again, EVER!!

Why not?

(Moon) But, will he go back to Romelia? Probably yes. I agree that Neil is likely to try to pick up again with her. He's so shy that it would be far easier to go along this path than to try to meet a *new* girl. Romelia has already indicated that he wouldn't be rejected and, hopefully, he's understood this. In my scenario, I'm not talking a "heavy-duty, looking-to-get-married" kind of relationship. This is just a 17-year-old boy who might correspond with her and see her during his holidays and who might invite her to go with him to special parties. What s the equivalent of prom? (Heide) How is our Neil going to be when he returns to school? I like the image of him as rebel. Hanging out with Lyndon, scoffing at the whole scene. I think he'll be somewhat of a loner as he tries to find himself. His friendship with Dundine is over, but he won't openly snub him. Neil won't try fitting in with those boys anymore; he has seen them for what they really are. You can see him questioning their values right after the confrontation with Dundine, as they are siding with Dundine or at least trying to convince him to forget about it. (Heide) Interesting that Mole looks just like the little furry, blind creature. LOL! Does he? And they're blind? Can you post a picture of one? (Heide) No mention yet of delectible Neil in jeans and his blue sweater in the bedroom scene? He looked scrumptious in that scene, staring out of the window and smoking his contraband cigarette. (Evelyn) the guy [Lyndon] has lots of "streets smarts" Precisely the old LBJ. The consummate good ol boy. Apparently Boyd didn't realize that similarity with his public school boys. (Kirsten) But all the same, I hope he will not adopt too much of his behaviour. I don't think he will stop being the nice, well-mannered Neil. He just won't allow people to walk all over him and he won't be so trusting and therefore so gullible. Take heart, he knows what the little thingie on the side of the bog is for! ;-) (Evelyn) He came from a family that did not interact and did not show emotions (DNA), then he's been at school that promoted regimentation for ten years...He will always be shy, intimidated by women, and exceedingly polite. Maybe this is the difference between what the movie is trying to show and reality. As Neil is hurling his hockey stick into the deep blue sea, while Mole is ordering him to stop, saying his word is LAW, aren't they trying to make us believe that Neil is rejecting those perverted ideals and the regimentation? I agree he will probably remain shy, etc. (Kirsten) Do you all think Neil is seriously fallen in love with Romelia? (Evelyn) As to falling in love...I think he had a crush on her. Crush or as Moon said earlier, puppy love, just about sums it up for me. (Kirsten) But isn't it possible that he is so sad about the "disaster" because of the lost opportunity, considering his remark about his slow start? Oh yes, he's sad about having lost out, but he's also in turmoil because his "best friend" betrayed him. I like the description in the book of what Neil sees at the bus that wasn't really shown in the movie.Romelia: What student? What are you talking about? (Truelove's face. Suspicion dawns. He looks around, sees Dundine laughing in a group containing Cone and Roote. Dundine doesn't meet Truelove's eye. (Kirsten) but if it was Dundine's idea, why wasn't he with him preparing it, and why didn't he try it himself, was he so convinced to be in the team with no doubt? Dundine's a jerk alright, but I would imagine he's smart enough not to take the unnecessary risk of getting caught. Apparently, Dundine must have been a good enough player to not need the doctored stick. At most schools, cheating would likely be cause for getting kicked out or "sent down." Besides, those kind of guys are usually spineless chicken-sh*ts! ;-)

Moon) But, will he go back to Romelia? Probably yes. (Karen)I agree that Neil is likely to try to pick up again with her. A far more likely scenario IMO is that Romelia will pick up with Neil. This is a determined lady...hey, she's got a plan

In the preface to School Ties, the book that has the screenplay to Dutch Girls as well as another television film called Good and Bad at Games, Boyd has the following quotation from W.H. Auden's "The Old School":Everyone knows that the only emotion that is fully developed in a boy of fourteen is the emotion of loyalty and honour. For that very reason it is so dangerous. By appealing to it, you can do almost anything you choose; you can suppress the expression of all those emoti ns--particularly the sexual--which are still undeveloped; like a modern dictator you can defeat almost any opposition from other parts of the psyche. But if you do, if you deny these other emotions their expression and development...they will not only never grow up, but they will go backward, for human nature can never stand still. They will, like other things that are shut up, go bad on you.How do you think this relates to the boys at the Strathdonald School?

Everyone knows that the only emotion that is fully developed in a boy of fourteen is the emotion of loyalty and honour. And probably lasts for several years in an all boys school where conformity is the key to surviving (Tommy Judd notwithstanding). like a modern dictator you can defeat almost any opposition from other parts of the psyche. Dundine understood this quite well. While not a ringleader, he still seemed able to pull Neil around by the ring in his nose. Perhaps because the actors playing the boys were so mature looking, they didnt' come across to me as emotionally backward. Actually, they seemed quite ready to break free. They showed no respect for authority at their school - the headmaster and Mole in particular were openly ridiculed. If anyone would have a problem I'd say it would be Giles - so confused and conflicted. Karen, I can count on you to bring something cerebral into our discussion. Now, can you tell me how to get rid of this indent?

But if you do, if you deny these other emotions their expression and development...they will not only never grow up, but they will go backward, for human nature can never stand still. They will, like other things that are shut up, go bad on you. And that is what probably happened to Giles's brother. That is why Giles is so tense, in his mind he knows he doesn't want to end up like his brother, he fears it. There is v. little liberty in boarding school, your life is commanded by rules, and you get v. little sympathy from others. My cousin's best friend committed suicide while they where students at Winchester College. My cousin has never gotten over it. In that competitive atmosphere you can easily withdraw into yourself when you should be asking for help or talking to friends. Neil saved himself when he threw his stick overboard. That was his release, his loyalty and honour was suddenly for himself alone.

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You left the center on,Heide..

I am always a little suspicious of generalizations...... Surely, individual strengths and weak tendencies must come into play in the public school environment. Frankly, I would like to hear of the positive experiences of the boarding shool in England. If theses schools were so devastating to the human psyche surely someone would have corrected them by now.

Frankly, I would like to hear of the positive experiences of the boarding shool in England. Thank you Evelyn. There are some! I have been reading these posts but did not really want to get into a discussion of the pros and cons of the British Public School. It is worth bearing in mind that the only way the institution has survived for so many centuries is that it has always adapted to the climate of opinion of its day. Generalisations are aften based on an outdated idea of what these schools are really like but I don't want to get into a discussion on it. It's not the place and it is such a complicated and contentious subject.

(someone above) Not just Dutch girls but Scandinavian girls: I believe it has to do with having all that darkness: the night! They also drink heavily. Men of course love it. whaaaat??? Dutch girls too? well, well...that would be a new one.

Frankly, I would like to hear of the positive experiences of the boarding shool in England. (Allison)Generalisations are aften based on an outdated idea of what these schools are really like but I don't want to get into a discussion on it. It's not the place and it is such a complicated and contentious subject Of course it's your option on whether or not you wish to voice the Pro-side of the Public School. I think someone should. William Boyd obviously viewed them with abhorrence. Yet, I have friends who have enjoyed the experience. And there's Ben who attended Winchester College. And there is always the view that perhaps Neil was a better man for having had a "life-altering experience" early in life; a lesson in life. .

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Of course it's your option on whether or not you wish to voice the Pro-side of the Public School. I have only just received a tape of Dutch girls and therefore cannot comment on closely on the system as exposed by William Boyd.. I got the impression from your discussions, that poor Neil had been at boarding school since the age of 7 or so. I could not defend that. I do not understand how any parent could bear to send such a young child away from home. I have a number of friends who have done that, however, and their children do not seem particularly damaged. It does however seem to make for more onformity amongst those who have been away most of their lives and sets them apart from the rest of society. Though it is hard to distinguish between nature and nurture! The Public School is a school which caters for pupils from 13 to 18 and I think there are definitely arguments to be made in favour of that, particularly for boys. For one thing, in a good school, they tend to work harder when surrounded day and night by their peers without too many distractions. They also do make such strong friendships which last all their lives (BTW homosexuality does not seem to be any more a part of life there than at day schools!). They also have the opportunity to do every sort f extra curricular sport and activity. There are obviously, as with everything, disadvantages, the main ones being the cost and the fact that those who do not go think that such an education buys you privilege. Sadly, the season of goodwill is upon us and I don't want to provoke an acrimonious debate! Paticulaarly as I know somebody who, I think, would be very strongly in the anti camp. Are he and Livia home from LA by the way?

Thanks Allison, for you views of the Public Schools. In Neil's situation, I think one can be betrayed by a friend in a public or state school. And I bet young Master Firth goes to a Private School in LA :-)

And I bet young Master Firth goes to a Private School in LA :-) I have often wondered about that!! I hope so for his sake!

(Heide) they didn't come across to me as emotionally backward...They showed no respect for authority at their school - the headmaster and Mole in particular were openly ridiculed. I agree that the boys acted like typical (normal) teenagers on a class trip, except for tossing the TP out of the train windows perhaps. (Heide)If anyone would have a problem I'd say it would be Giles - so confused and conflicted. (Moon) And that is what probably happened to Giles's brother. Yes, he appears to be the only one who takes the headmaster's and Mole's words seriously about honor and representing the school. (Evelyn) I am always a little suspicious of generalizations. But we mustn't forget this story is one man's experience and his views. It shouldn't be viewed as a White Paper, Green Paper or Purple Paper on the public school system as commissioned by a think tank or governmental body. (Evelyn) If these schools were so devastating to the human psyche surely someone would have corrected them by now. I would imagine that they've evolved over the years and I'm reminded of the fraternity/sorority systems here. During my time at school, they had fallen out of favor and their tradition-bound, rules orientation was relaxed considerably for those who belonged. However, there is a tendency for people who have gone through such ordeals to NOT want them to change, merely because of the belief that if they had to do it, then why shouldn't someone else. (Fraternity hazing: "If I crawled across the room naked through peanut butter and jelly, while balancing a six-pack of beer on my head, so will you.") On ER a week ago, Dr. Corday (Alex Kingston) gives an impassioned speech about doing away with the practice of having interns on 36-hour shifts. She compared it wi h air traffic controllers who work no longer than four-hour shifts because lives depend on them. She accused the hospital doctors of not changing this archaic practice, which contributes to mistakes, because of the attitude that they had to do it. Wasn't it in Another Country (?) where someone is complaining that their fathers couldn't know what went on at these schools and another who counters that they do know precisely what went on because they themselves had been subjected to it. (Allison) it is such a complicated and contentious subject If we limit our discussion to what the author/film are trying to portray, then it doesn't have to be contentious. Does it? What the author believes is just that, a belief. It's his, not necessarily mine and frankly I have no opinion on the subject. (Evelyn) And there is always the view that perhaps Neil was a better man for having had a "life-altering experience" early in life; a lesson in life. Good point.

(Evelyn) I am always a little suspicious of generalizations. (Karen)But we mustn't forget this story is one man's experience and his views..... My comment referred to your quote by Auden re: public schools not Willam Boyd's in DG.

A bit of a dry spell and I'm afraid I don't have a lot to add. I thank you, ladies, for trying to spice things up with a discussion of British public schools but we seem to have hit a snag. After the holidays, let's try a new discussion. There's been a groundswell of support building for 1000 Acres. A possibility? I know there are also some votes out there for The One Before the Last. Other suggestions? In the meantime, Dutch Girls still rules.

Heide, we haven't heard from everyone who owns this tape. Allison just received it. And how is Cheryle coming along? If ATA is difficult to rent in UK , maybe we should wait a while. I hope we do Master of the Moor in '99 too.

Allison just received it. Yes! I only manged a furtive glimpse as I am surrounded by inquisitive sons at the moment. Can't wait for a moment to watch it properly. I don't want to bore the rest of you so do go ahead with whatever you wish. I have not tried to rent ATA yet though after Bethan's experience I am not sure I dare! If I feel an overwhelming need to discuss DGs, I shall just have to interrupt your ATA deliberations!

Can we discuss Thorton's face? Could they have added one more pimple, cold sore and/or blemish? And the taped-together glasses... What kind of stereotype was he supposed to be? Another noncontroversial subject...dancing styles. Which boy knew how to dance? Was it Lyndon, who got down? Dundine, who had "attitude"? Lamb (the kid who was pointing)? Or Neil? Another great scene at the disco are the wallflower boys sitting there putting Lyndon's tart down as well as the entire place because no one will have them. As they leave, Roote does his best Bette Davis, "What a dump." Loved that bit as well as Giles being helped out at that moment.

(KarenR)On ER a week ago, Dr. Corday (Alex Kingston) gives an impassioned speech about doing away with the practice of having interns on 36-hour shifts. She compared it wi h air traffic controllers who work no longer than four-hour shifts because lives depend on them. She accused the hospital doctors of not changing this archaic practice, which contributes to mistakes, because of the attitude that they had to do it. My dear Karen I'm very thankful to you for having posted this, and to ER for having broached the subject. I'm a doctor and am totally against long shifts in the Emergency Room. With us it's 24 hours. We all do it, interns, residents and attendings, as long as we're under 50 years old (after that, untill you're 55 you may work only 12 hrs shifts, no nights, if you ask, and after 55 you may be excused from all emergency work, again if you ask). I hadn't thought of the analogy with the airline pilots, but that's a great one.

Sorry, it was air traffic controllers. But airline pilots also have time limitation rules.

(Gi) I hadn't thought of the analogy with the airline pilots, but that's a great one. See, you never know when you'll pick up something worthwhile here. ;-)

(Karen) Another noncontroversial subject...dancing styles. Which boy knew how to dance? Was it Lyndon, who got down? Dundine, who had "attitude"? Lamb (the kid who was pointing)? Or Neil? Okay, I'll bite. Who was that boy who was dancing alone - the one still wearing his little beanie? Was that Lamb? Karen, you're a wonder. He was enjoying himself. I'll bet it was hard to drag him off the dancefloor. I'll take sweetie Neil's dancing (of course). That's slow dancing. I'm trying to remember the placement of his hands. One was lightly touching her shoulder but where was the second one? Did he actually have it around her waist? The boys were dancing in the beginning. I imagine they just burst into the disco and right out onto the dancefloor. The girls weren't really dancing with them. When they didn't immediately live up to their Dutch Girl reputations, I suppose, the boys got disillusioned real fast.

This is only tenuously related to DG, but I just read in the paper today that our pal, Lyndon Baines Jellicoe (Timothy Spall) will be in the Masterpiece Theatre presentation of Dickens' "Our Mutual Friend" on Sunday night. They even had a picture of him in the paper. My, he hasn't aged awfully well. He's playing a nasty, garbage-picking type of character so maybe I should chock it up to make-up. Come to think of it, he didn't look all that well in DG, did he?

That's interesting, Jana, thanks. I'll check him out. Let's see, he was about 35 in DG so he must be close to 50 now! ;-)

Timothy Spall was also the main character in SECRETS AND LIES.

(Heide)Re:Timothy Spall.... Let's see, he was about 35 in DG so he must be close to 50 now! ;-) Was he really 35 in DG? I thought he would have been Colin's age.I'll look for him in "Our Mutual Friend". It got rave reviews when it was shown last spring in UK.

I'm just teasing, Evelyn. I'm sorry. But he looked like he was about 35!

Timothy Spall was about 27 at the time of DG.

Nan, how right you are... ;-)

(Passionata) Timothy Spall was also the main character in SECRETS AND LIES. Was he really? I saw DG after Secrets and Lies but now cannot place Timothy Spall at all in that film. Was he Brenda Blethyn's brother? That's the only main character man I can think of from that film other than the daughter's boyfriend.

Yes, he was Blethyn's brother--the photographer.

I could identify Lyndon Baines last night in "Our Mutual Friend"... he looked 50, Heide. But I read on RoP that Colonel Fitzwilliam was in this Dickens production too but I couldn't find him. Anyone have any luck...there's tonight and Tuesday.

Timothy Spall has been recently recovering from leukemia.

I found Colonel Fitzwilliam in "Our Mutual Friend".Anthony Calf in the credits. He is Alfred Lamle....the bankrupt sleaze-ball who's about to rip-off the Ruperts(sp?) Didn't recognize him though with a floor-brush mustache and mop-style hair.Once again....definitely more attractive at Rosings. These guys don't seem to get any better than they were in P&P:-)

Timothy Spall has been recently recovering from leukemia. ] Oh, how terrible! He is a great actor, I hope he pulls through.

Timothy Spall has been recently recovering from leukemia. Oh no! I hope he pulls through, too. So talented-- he's hilarious in "Life is Sweet."

Has there been any decision made on our next film discussion? I always like to have time to read the book.

Hate to see a Colin topic go dormant. We must set up a new film to discuss. Anyone who's recently seen Dutch Girls or expects too soon can speak up anytime on any topic. I love to hear film comments when our DB is discussed. In honor of Valentine's Day, how about a love story? Oh God, does that mean Camille? Think of some of his films that might qualify that we haven't discussed yet. We can always stretch the criteria a bit.

(Heide)Oh God, does that mean Camille? Hey...watch it....I like"Camille".......mobetta than FP!! So, flame me.....

Camille...mobetta than FP?! Evelyn, this is war!!

Hey! These posts have not been showing up as new so perhaps that is why the topic has gone dormant. Have we discussed Tumbledown? (Evelyn)I always like to have time to read the book. Oh my, you all set such impossibly high standards. I bet Mel Gibson fans don't do that sort of thing.

(Allison) Have we discussed Tumbledown? No, we haven't. I'd like to do this one or Master of the Moor (I just finished reading the book!)

(Allison) I bet Mel Gibson fans don't do that sort of thing. Hey, we've got class...besides CF mobetta than MG!! ****** (Heide)Camille...mobetta than FP?! Evelyn, this is war! Knew that would get you.(As Laura would say...hee,hee)

Ah, Tumbledown... a love story between a man and his rifle. Or Master of the Moor...a love story between a man and his mother. Yes, yes, yes, you're right. None of his films are simple love stories. Camille doesn't count, Evelyn, except that it's simple. That's actually an instruction tape on bad acting (not Colin's, of course). Karen, what films haven't we done? I'm up for anything (except Camille) but if we don't get other suggestions, let's do Tumbledown February 1. If you don't have it and want it, contact me or Karen at nomdedrool@yahoo.com

And one more time. I didn't mean to yell at you. Don't ever type in the words "big smiley face" in brackets.

Here's what we haven't done: Another Country Apartment Zero Camille Circle of Friends Deep Blue Sea Lost Empires Master of the Moor 1919 One Before the Last (radio play) Out of the Blue Tales from the Hollywood Hills Widowing of Mrs. Holroyd Tumbledown A Thousand Acres Wings of Fame Technically Femme Fatale was done, but no very in-depth. Apartment Zero might be a good one to do. Many people really like it and it is readily available.

(Allison) I bet Mel Gibson fans don't do that sort of thing. (Evelyn)Hey, we've got class...besides CF mobetta than MG!! (Heide)Camille...mobetta than FP?! Evelyn, this is war! CF mobetta than MG? Evelyn, take care! :-)

(Gi)CF mobetta than MG? Evelyn, take care! :-) AAA. I should have prefaced that with IMHO and added a :-) Will I ever learn?

No offence taken, Evelyn :-)

Evelyn, I plan on usurping AAA next time I offend someone. But let's not forget KMA, very effective though only to be used in case of emergency. Tumbledown....going once...

Heide, what's KMA?

Heide, what's KMA? IMO it's Kiss My A--. And Nan will kill you if you use it without a emoticon!!

Tumbledown...going twice...

And Tumbledown...gone. No other suggestions so it looks like this is the one to discuss starting February 1. Remember, if you want to join us and don't have the film, contact Karen and me at nomdedrool@yahoo.com A good source for background information on this film is Jane's Articles Page. You can access some articles on the film and the reaction in Britain to its airing. Just click here

Thanks for the Tumbledown link Heide, I'm sure it will help make our discussion more interesting.

Just to start the anticipatory juices, do check out Drool's main page....

Cannot wait to admire the Dear Boy in those fisherman sweaters. He does them justice, and then some!!! Now, if I can convince Ray to watch it with me....!!!

(Marcia) Now, if I can convince Ray to watch it with me....!!! Just make sure you send him out of the room for the scene when his mates come to pick him up and he says good-bye to Sophie. Might put a dent in his ego when you drool at that deep shoulder action!!

Karen, the Tumbledown cover on the main page is AWESOME! I was thinking of asking my husband to see it, but I'll have to wait until the Sophie scene to ask him, thanks for the warning (heehee). He might watch until he recognizes CF, then he'll walk out. I'm sure he's quite allergic to him. Thank heaven for my drool friends, otherwise I'd go mad.

Karen, that is a cool pic, where'd ya get it????? Oh no, I'm gonna have to look deep into my videos and try and find it;( It's taped off of Canadian TV!!! Can't wait to virt view w/ you guys!

(Moon Dreams)He might watch until he recognizes CF, then he'll walk out. I'm sure he's quite allergic to him. Thank heaven for my drool friends, otherwise I'd go mad. Spoken like a true Firthian. I think all of our husbands are allergic to him! Definitely, have husbands watch after Sophie's Scene!

Need to close that tag!! Hmmm, as for myself, I can't wait to rewatch that scene with his best-ever deep shoulder grind... ;-)

I guess I shall start the discussion. Tumbledown has one of the best performances I have ever seen from CF. I found it quite disturbing and at times hard to look at. The same feeling that Sophie felt when she saw him in the hospital. It was strange that even after he had decided and told his parents that going to war was not worth it, he would rather watch the war programs on TV than anything else. I guess he was having problems reconciling the fact that he, a Scots Guard career officer was having those thoughts. I did laugh at some of his remarks at the hospital especially with the doctors and nurses (but I attribute that to my mostly warped sense of humor), did anyone else laugh? They built the story very well and even incidents we had heard him tell became even more powerful when they were shown almost at the end of the film, i.e. His stabbing of the Argentine soldier and his tumbledown. On a lighter note: what a nice shape his head has! We certainly got lots of close ups of his neck, and not a bad backside either (but we�re familiar with that part thanks to the Advocate aren�t we?).

I thought it was a good performance but it is an interesting insight into his attitude to acting that he has said (I think)that he was disappointed when he first saw the final version of Tumbledown. Typical drama school fare. I can see that all the writhing, screaming, groaning is the sort of thing you learn in the first year of drama school but those are the sort of parts that get awards! I think he has also said that he was appalled that his portrayal of RL was just impersonation. His accent in this is a typical upper class drawl that you would expect from a guards officer. It also has a very nasal twang to it which I assume was the way RL actually spoke. Those of you who recently saw the film about the bayonet in which RL spoke; was Colin's portrayal just mimicry? Lots of other things I loved. When he is talking to Sophie on the night before he left for the Falklands, there is one of his "looks" which is so wonderful, when he says something on the lines of "been busy have you?" Arghhh! His eyes are wonderful.

I don't know if I can think of another performance that's more physical than this. I imagine it's his idea of what a man like Lawrence, someone who was probably going to be a career soldier like his daddy, someone who seemed to love the military, would act - brash, arrogant - not necessarily likeable. It's such a different performance, I love to watch it. Energy in every scene - kissing, drinking, soldiering, even his recovery is angry and loud. I love that scene you mention, Allison. For all his macho posturing he did seem to care for her. This is also one of my favorite drunk scenes he plays. (Favorite is Femme Fatale.) What remarks did you find funny, Moon? I would probably agree but none are coming to mind now. I found the scene on the hospital ship when he has a running dialogue going on while the doctors are picking pieces of dirt out of his brain very eerie. We could do a long discussion on how the medical profession is portrayed in this film. Anybody care to?

We could do a long discussion on how the medical profession is portrayed in this film. I read a comment by somebody(?) at the time Tumbledown came out that it was not a good idea to take the account of a man who has had half his brain blown off as an accurate account of what went on. His agressive attitude to doctors and nurses and the portrayal of the patronising attitudes of the chaplain was sometimes a bit too overdone IMHO. Having your brain blown apart does affect the personality. It would have been interesting to know to what extent his personality was changed by his injuries. Tha was not clear. I think we were meant to conclude that only his mobility was impaired.

You have a very good point Allison. I would think losing 40% of your brain would afect the personality. Maybe it was wrong to make think that only his mobility was impaired. His rehabilitation was very successful, watching him drive, walk and eat seemed quite normal. Heide, the lines that made me laugh were his sarcastic comments to doctors and nurses in the hospital, but once again, it's probably my warped sense of humor.

I should have read before posting. Excuse my spelling & etc.

(Allison) he was appalled that his portrayal of RL was just impersonation. Robt Lawrence's accent is upper class and sounds like he has marbles in his mouth. So, yes, Colin is definitely imitating his speech.

His agressive attitude to doctors and nurses and the portrayal of the patronising attitudes of the chaplain was sometimes a bit too overdone IMHO. I felt the same way when I started the film...but then I came to the conclusion that this was his way of dealing with this injury. I have not finished the film...but at the end of the book he is a more serene person. I have Robert Lawrence's book which he wrote with his father John. "When the Fighting is Over" TUMBLEDOWN. ,According to his brother Nick, Robert was always a "stroppy little sod". After reading the book...IMO I feel Colin underplayed the real Robert. This guy was always a rebel, impetuous, alienated people etc. Wrong profession for that personality. But a v. brave man who is lucky to be alive. Not many people survive head injuries from a bullet wound originating from a rifle.

I too had a hard time believing the hospitals would have treated Lawrence so callously. The exceptions were few and far between. I believe the point the film was trying to show was how unprepared the hospitals were to treat such injuries as if they didn't expect the soldiers to come home so ravaged. IMO the point was exaggerated but not false. How do you feel Sophie was portrayed? I wouldn't have wanted to be his real ex-girlfriend.

I wouldn't have wanted to be his real ex-girlfriend. I understand one of the controversies surrounding the film and a reason why it has not been shown again were the objections raised by the mother of that girlfriend who understandably objected to the portrayal of her daughter. Robert was always a "stroppy little sod". That is interesting. That would account for Sophie's possible love/hate feelings about Robert. CF portrayed him as rather a sweet man under it all which is what, IMO, made his attitudes in hospital rather hard to fully understand. The film makers maybe baulked at showing RL in his true light. There had to be some sympathy for his plight.

You're right about the hospitals not being prepared for such injuries, and it is surprising. Not all doctors or nurses treated him badly, they were just not capable to handle him psychologically. They should have had more compassion towards him, but since Robert was usually in a bad mood and quite angry, they rather kept their distance. He was told and knew that if he would behave himself they would treat him better. His military attitude did not abandon him in the hospital bed.

that would account for Sophie's possible love/hate feelings about Robert. I really feel it was all over between S & RL before he went away. She was just being dutiful going to see him and... ahem...letting him relieve his sexual tensions with her. In the screen play she says: One can't get away from the fact , you are a different person. I mean, not just your injury, but that of course...I mean, it terrifies me to think of living with you. We weren't , after all going to marry or anything, were we? We hadn't seen each other for weeks before you went down there. Robert: Yes, all right. Look, I've made a mess in the bed...Hope you don't expect me to apologize. It happens. The British doctors are world renowned for treating head injuries. They're probably not a bunch of "Patch Adams"...but are v. serious in their treatment.I despised the nurses who were discussing their sex lives and were rude to him.But the doctors worst failings IMO were talking about him as if he was an inanimate object. But as RL said about his incontinence....It happens.

In the Jane's Articles page on Tumbledown, the real Sophie's mother questions Lawrence's motives for making this film - that it was solely for his financial benefit and he shouldn't have made public their intimate moments. Granted, the woman is defending her cub and I wouldn't expect less from a mother but nowhere does she deny any of these moments took place. How can the story of his injury and recovery be complete without Sophie's role? I don't particularly like Robert Lawrence in this film. I don't think we're supposed to like him. Maybe it takes someone with his kind of abrasive, arrogant attitude to make it through something this catastrophic. Then again, it doesn't hurt to have Daddy be so influential. I'd be curious to know about his friend Hugh's feelings about his portrayal. Do you think he was jealous of Lawrence as Robert insists in the film?

Sophie and Robert's relationship didn't seem to be that close. She was still his friend and visited him in the hospital. It was a v. kind and noble jesture on her part to have him over from the hospital. Her mother should be proud of the jesture too. Afterall, they were no longer together and she had someone else, remember the phone rang and I assume it was her current beau, didn't you? I did not think that Lawrence was jealous of Robert, he said so, but we didn't really see it (I didn't).

Wow, what an actor. I received a copy of Tumbledown this morning from a very kind Firthfan, and have just finished watching it. Colin never ceases to amaze me, in every part he disappears into that role, I was moved to tears, he just becomes Robert, as someone else has said a chameleon among actors. If I thought he deserved a Bafta for P&P then he should certainly have won one for this role. He did everything so well, he was arrogant, he cried, he was so convincing as a cripple and his torment and anquis just showed through, he really should be pround of this performance. I am so glad I have seen this, is there no end to this man's talents. Just as a point of interest did anyone else notice Mark Williams as Lumpy, he was in SIL and was the tailor who narrated R&J and had a stutter.

And Lady Catherine de Bourgh was Robert's mother. He was nominated for a Best Actor BAFTA for Tumbledown, I believe in 1989 and lost. However, TUMBLEDOWN, did win a BAFTA for Best Drama. After Heide commented on them...I went to the articles on T. on Jane's article page. I got there via colinfirth.com and click on links. After reading about all the controversy I was surprised it won a BAFTA. Everyone got into the act... I did not consider T. an anti-war movie...or a political one.Or even anti-army Anti-bureaucratic, yes. Was the Falklands War unpopular in UK? Some of the articles referred to it as "Mrs. Thatcher's war"

Women are treated rather unflattering in this film. Except for Robert's mother who I think is great...I'd like to talk more about her later. We see Sophie portrayed as a spoiled child who can't deal with Robert's injuries (though I agree, Moon, that she was generous having Robert over). The nurses are awful, Mrs. Stubbs looks like she can't wait for Robert and Hugh to get out of her house. Hugh's girlfriend treats him terribly. Is this Robert's view of women or is this an example of how people who have never been in a war situation, can't understand what has happened to these men. Thanks, Evelyn, for reminding us who played Mrs. Lawrence. By the way, I believe Robert Lawrence married later and had a child.

The actress who played Mrs. Stubbs�s daughter is Emma Thompson�s sister. How many films are there that portray women as they should? Why even �You�ve Got Mail�, does a detestable job, and it�s supposed to be so acceptable. Yuk! Why would Mrs. Stubbs be so affected by him? He was quite presentable, albeit, a bit nervous (all that smoking), but she had kept her daughter upstairs in her room during their visit, and the daughter did not seem to complain. Is that an anti-war statement, is beauty not supposed to see the beast? In contrast, Mr. Stubbs was very curious to know all and talk to Robert. Yes, the male vs. female point of view is certainly a part of this film.

Do you think the film was drawing a parallel between the way the Stubbs's, Sophie and the Army were all at a loss to know how to deal with these damaged and shocked men?

Although Colin missed out on BAFTA in 1988 (he seems to be unlucky with them!), he received a Royal Television Society award for Best Actor for TD.

The actress who played Mrs. Stubbs�s daughter is Emma Thompson�s sister. Sophie Thompson...who played Miss Bates (giggled all the time) in "Emma". Women are depicted as unable to cope with the aftermath atrocities of war. But what I really want to know is.... Who are the Stubbs?...Helen and George and daughter Louise.They are not in the book...only the screenplay. Are they relatives? Friends? Or are they symbolic ?.... The public at large? George seems curious and talks to Robert...Grace prefers to get away and talk to Hugh.And Louise...she just stays up in her room. Yet Hugh inquires after her. I wonder if a scene or two were edited out.(But they're not in the screenplay).

Do you think the film was drawing a parallel between the way the Stubbs's, Sophie and the Army were all at a loss to know how to deal with these damaged and shocked men? Yes, I'd agree. A similar statement is also made in A Month in the Country, I believe, though we know dear Birkin was able to find solace and healing in Oxgodby. Don't know how or if Lawrence ever found his peace. Who are the Stubbs?. They seem like just a device (or convention as DB puts it ;-)) to allow Robert to tell his story. Stubbs' daughter is Hugh's girlfriend but she doesn't seem to have any affection for him. One of my favorite scenes in this film is the long shot of Lawrence's partents coming out of the hospital after first seeing him wounded. They're both in a state of shock. The father is obviously affected but talks about how proud he is of Robert, presumably for his bravery. "God,he's done well. Hasn't he?", he says. But the mother is mostly silent. As if all she can think of is how grievously wounded her son is...as good an Army wife as I'm sure she is, I think she could care less how he was w unded, only that he was. I think this difference is reflected several times in the film and I love her for it. Barbara Leigh-Hunt is great in this film.

I see also that is was directed by Richard Eyre, isn't he Sue B's husband, people do seem to like to work with people they have worked with before, and,of course, BL-H was memorable as Lady C.D-B in P&P. Arami, do you happen to know who won the BAFTA in 1988 for best actor, actually I have just thought I might be able to look it up, I have the BAFTA Wwards book for 1996.

I assumed the Stubbs daughter was Hugh's girlfriend. Hugh is an engaging character but I have to say, as played by Paul Rhys, an unlikely army officer. Don't get me wrong I really like PR as an actor. Did any of you see him as Stringer in "Dance to the Music of Time"? He is a welshman and I cannot resist welshmen! I thought, though, that Hugh was just too effete to be a realistic soldier. I cannot believe that he was like that in real life. What does the book have to say on that?

Ann, if you go to Jane's Article Page (if it's still up...I heard after the recent interview, she might take it down!)there is an article on the '88 BAFTAs. (Heide) Don't know how or if Lawrence ever found his peace. Yes, at the end of the book he does. Marries a girl he met after being wounded who accepted him as he was...Tina, they had a son, Conrad. John Lawrence says: His main problem is the British weather and I think it quite likely that they will eventually emigrate to Australia where ttthe climate should help to make Robert's life a lot more physically comfortable. Later, I'll tell you about the nice letter he had from the US Army Attache. The poor guy craved recognition.The same could have been written about our Viet-Nam veterans. Always happens after a controversial war.

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re: Sophie It's some weeks now that I saw T'down last, but I do not remember that Sophie did anything particularly blameworthy. As I see it Sophie and Robert split up before he left for the Falklands - the last night before his departure didn't change anything on that matter in my eyes. So you can't say she left him because of his injury. What I don't see clearly is how it happened that Robert spent the night at her place during his recovery, why she did it. Was it meant as a generous gesture? Did she simply not know how to say "No."? Was it pity? Sympathie? That question and the phone call at an inconvenient moment are certainly questions one may judge differently - I do not know how to judge them myself. Though she may not have chosen the best way for her final "Adieu" I can't really blame her - she was very young, how would she have kno n how to handle such a situation, how to cope with what has happened to Robert - how would anyone know. And I'm sure she meant well - and she didn't love him anymore, they split up before he has been wounded, so what would have been the use of a relationship out of simple sympathie or pity?

I agree, I don't really think Sophie is that unsympathetic either though I didn't take it that they had broken up before he left...merely that they hadn't seen each other for awhile. It isn't clear. She did return to visit him in the hospital which frankly was a generous gesture in itself if she wanted to break up with him. I don't see Sophie's actions as contradictory but I think the screenplay may have been a bit harsh on her. Robert's mother seemed to understand her. The real Sophie's mother seemed to object mostly about her daughter being portrayed as a "sex kitten". Well, it's not like she was sleeping with the whole regiment...or was that part cut out? ;-) After all, "we all saw Sophie". Is there any facet of Robert Lawrence's character that is likeable to you? Cid you like him before his injury? during his recovery? after his recovery?

Is there any facet of Robert Lawrence's character that is likeable to you? id Did you like him before his injury? during his recovery? after his recovery? When I read the book, I didn't like RL...I thought..."What did he think he was joining ...the Boys Scouts?"Soldiering is not a glamourous profession, one can get killed...or maimed. He always was looking for the negative side of things. I think Charles Wood's screenplay softened him up some...Colin smiled...I don't think RL did in real life. However, this man had unsurpassed courage...in battle and more so in recovery. I have great admiration for him.And yes I liked him for his determination.

That s a good question Heide. I admit I did not feel much for Robert, I was mostly studying Colin s portrayal of him. Oddly, I did like Valmont and found him sympathetic. I was not sympathetic to him in Wings of Fame either.

(Moon) ... told his parents that going to war was not worth it He said, "It wasn't worth it!" He's upset because he thinks all his men are dead. When he is assured that is not the case, he calmed down. Robert is proud of being a soldier and of what he did in the Falklands. That underlies everything. He sought recognition. (Allison) I can see that all the writhing, screaming, groaning is the sort of thing you learn in the first year of drama school but those are the sort of parts that get awards! So who beat him out for the BAFTA that year? Anyone? (Heide) how the medical profession is portrayed in this film I think we're given all sides. Not all medical personnel were unfeeling toward the patients and it is common to talk about patients as if they were not there (especially in teaching hospitals) and then refer to them by their medical ailment and not their name. Possibly the fact that these were military hospitals could account for the lack of bedside manner. However, there was the nice doctor who gave him the beer after he fell out of bed and talked to him. That, I think, was the issue. Communication. eople who were honest with Robert and talked to him were portrayed positively. (Evelyn) I feel Colin underplayed the real Robert. This guy was always a rebel, impetuous, alienated people etc. I think it's important to remember he was only 21 when this happened. The only rebelliousness and impetuousity I noticed were in the hospital scenes. His abrasive behavior was to make people treat him as a normal human being and not an invalid. He was a fighter and he was going to be in their face so they didn't forget and relegate him to some rest home for injured war veterans. Wrong profession for that personality. I saw him as a real career type who was in the wrong regiment. Robert wanted the prestige of being a Guards officer, but he also wanted to see action. The dichotomy of being in the pretty boy Guards, whose main function is to pose for tourists' pictures, while longing to be with the marines and paras getting down and dirty in the Falklands and their getting all the glory IHO. (Interesting little factoid, the Guards units were not supposed to have seen combat; they were to maintain already taken position .) Robert made it into the officer corps the hard way (not through daddy's connections or school) and sought out training assignments to make himself a better, more well-rounded soldier. At the same time, he drilled his platoon to be ready for action. Contrast that with Hugh's response to his commanders about an emphasis on boots and "looking good." Robert was acknowledged for his leadership skills and highly respected and liked by his men. He was out there on Tumbledown with his troops, leading the charge. He questioned why he was the only officer of his unit to be injured. (Heide) How do you feel Sophie was portrayed? I wouldn't have wanted to be his real ex-girlfriend. I wonder if the controversy about the real ex-girlfriend led to some changes in his book. She doesn't come off as bad as in the film. The father mentions her (Mitty) showing up at the airfield at Brize Norton and going to the hospital: "Jean straightened up and let Mitty in to kiss him gently on the lips. She was only nineteen, but very brave as she fought back the tears." Later Robert gives a brief mention of his field trip to her flat. "It all ended between us that night. I spent an awful night sleeping on a mattress on her floor, knowing that something was wrong, that she had found someone else. And I had a sense that relationships were going to be a lot more worrying in future, and not necessarily in the physical sense....The problem was going to be finding someone who could understand, and cope with, the demands of my disability." (Evelyn) I really feel it was all over between S & RL before he went away. That is certainly the way it looked. As Kirsten also points out, Robert says that he hasn't seen Sophie for a couple weeks before he shipped out. (Heide) I don't particularly like Robert Lawrence in this film. I don't think we're supposed to like him. But the screenwriter Charles Wood did like him. I think we're supposed to admire him and sympathize with his frustrations with the bureaucracy, mistreatment by his regiment, and the alienation from the public. (Heide) I'd be curious to know about his friend Hugh's feelings about his portrayal. Do you think he was jealous of Lawrence as Robert insists in the film? Just like the Stubbs family, there is no "Hugh." Maybe he's been put into the film to represent a typical Guards officer, whose brush with the reality and horrors of combat have taken their toll. He's conflicted and not as strong as Robert. Instead of jealousy, do you think what he feels is guilt over not being able to finish him off per their drunken pact? (Ann W) did anyone else notice Mark Williams as Lumpy Thanks for pointing that out. I watched it again last night and there he is large as life! (Evelyn) After reading about all the controversy...I did not consider T. an anti-war movie...or a political one. Anti-bureaucratic, yes. Like you, Evelyn, I was surprised about how controversial the film was and did a lot of reading after seeing it for the first time. Unfortunately, most of the books available to me were written by journalists covering the war. They had not-so-hidden agendas and major gripes against the government for its control of information during wartime. Lawrence's message was that the government (including the military establishment) couldn't deal with the aftermath. He was a hero and he wanted to be recognized as such (and then taken care for the rest of his life!) (Heide) Women are treated rather unflattering in this film. Except for Robert's mother who I think is great....Is this Robert's view of women or is this an example of how people who have never been in a war situation, can't understand what has happened to these men. Mum is a military wife. Didn't you think she was questioning her own maternal instincts the night Robert calls to tell them he is coming home? She can't understand why John's father claims to have heard Robert cry that night because she didn't. Even the dog instinctively knew something was wrong. Not all women are portrayed unflatteringly. There were some good, capable nurses that Robert admired even though he may not have liked the restrictions they put on him. (Evelyn) Who are the Stubbs? I think they must be a cross-section of the public. George has a morbid curiosity. He collects all sorts of military things, but is anti-war. "Oh, I collect, but I don't do. Bit like the rest of the country." Grace puts on her best manners and tolerates having the "killers" in her house, but is too polite to say or do anything. Louise apparently was initially fascinated by Hugh, but his dashing image has worn off and now she is just sick and tired of him, so she hides like a little coward, unable to confront him or help him. (Allison) I thought, though, that Hugh was just too effete to be a realistic soldier. But isn't that supposed to be the case? Remember the nurse at the beginning who was surprised Robert didn't attend Eton. She thought all Guards officers did. The SG were not a real fighting regiment. They mostly had public duties as a Household Division. Sorry about the long post. Tried to catchup. I really do think Colin did a fantastic job. You always get a sense of Lawrence's arrogance, both when he's fit and when he's injured. How else could one explain that car? Loved him running in those tight jeans with the Walkman. Better than all those baggy outfits he seems to wear in other films! Speaking of running, doesn't it make your mouth water when he's running around the barracks with his platoon, wearing a t-shirt and singing. My oh my, he looks very fit! "Am I right or am I wrong?" ;-D (I have no problem with his running or singing in this one.)

As the cousin of a couple of guards officers, I must defend the regiments (or at least theirs, the Blues and Royals). Pretty they may be, and paras they are not, but they spent most of their time on the Falls Road and one went to the Falklands.

Ben...why was the war so contoversial.... Or is that Robert Lawrence's perception? Of course, the screenplay was written by Charles Wood, an avowed pacifist. So, even before the film was released...people probably had an opinion. RL was distressed with the treatment he received from his regiment post war. Felt they did not support him or assist him in any way. Like the rest of the population, his own regiment felt RL was an embarassment.

(Ben) Pretty they may be, and paras they are not, but they spent most of their time on the Falls Road and one went to the Falklands. And...? I never felt warmly for the character of Robert Lawrence though I'd agree, Evelyn, that his determination was something to be admired. I guess it's easy for me to say what a stupid shit I think he is while I'm sitting back on my comfy sofa with the remote in hand, knowing what happens to Robert as he screams about how fun it all is. But I loved Colin's portrayal and want to know too who won the BAFTA that year. (Karen) Speaking of running, doesn't it make your mouth water when he's running around the barracks with his platoon, wearing a t-shirt and singing. My oh my, he looks very fit! Amen, sister.

Karen, apparently according to my LLoyds Bank 1996 Lloyds Bank BAFTA Awards book, Ray McAnally, won the BAFTA for the best actor, the name rings a bell but perhaps Allison or Bethan may know him. I'M afraid I don't know the name of the series/serial in which he appeared as it only has the names of the directors,producers, writers etc., but having watch TD for a second time I would say he was robbed, nobody could have done better.

sorry, hadn't read your post Heide, but that answer is to you also.

Karen, apparently according to my LLoyds Bank 1996 Lloyds Bank BAFTA Awards book, Ray McAnally, won the BAFTA for the best actor, the name rings a bell but perhaps Allison or Bethan may know him. I'M afraid I don't know the name of the series/serial in which he appeared as it only has the names of the directors,producers, writers etc., but having watch TD for a second time I would say he was robbed, nobody could have done better.

McAnally, won the BAFTA for the best actor, the name rings a bell but perhaps I cannot remember the name of the play but I think he played a politician. How we miss the FAQ, I am sure it was in there. (Ben)I must defend the regiments I would agree with Ben. All the Guards regiments have a reputation for military efficiency and bravery in battle, they really should not be judged by how they appear on ceremonial duty. That is why still maintain that Hugh is too effete. Most Guards officers may be grand and well connected but they are also tough nad look as if they could make a good show in battle. IMHO Paul Rhys looks as if a puff of wind would blow him over.

I agree the Guards are a highly respected regiment. Isn't there a lovely retirement home (more like a palace), in London for the Guards?

There are several guards regiments - Blues and Royals, Grenadier Guards, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Coldstream, Life....blah, blah. Check out and look up the various regiments. I don't know which has a base on Birdcage Walk (running alongside St James Park), which is perhaps what you're thinking of, Moon. There is a general retirement home for old soldiers at Chelsea Hospital on the Kings Rd. Evelyn - the war was controversial because there were suspicions that Thatcher had (domestic) political motives for going ahead. The was a big outcry about the sinking of the Belgrano, for example, and a row with the church about the nature of the service in St Paul's in the summer of 1982. I'm sure there was at least a little of the political in Thatcher's decision, but she also believed in defending invaded territory to the hilt, a principal that commanded popular support. The Task Force did not have to go in the teeth of public opposition. In fact, there was the usual loutish jingoism from the tabloids - The Sun's famous headline after the Belgrano was sunk: "Gotcha!". (I liked Private Eye's mock Sun front page at the time, which included the starred ad. in the top corner, "Kill an Argie nd win a Metro! See page 10."] You can imagine how this went down with the educated, and generally liberal and tolerant, bourgoisie (the "chattering classes") in Britain.

(Ben) I must defend the regiments (or at least theirs, the Blues and Royals). Sorry if you took my words to mean that a bunch of toy soldiers or the equivalent of the Pope's Swiss Guards were sent off to lead the assault on Stanley for that is not what I intended. Lawrence's Guards unit was part of 5 Infantry Brigade that sailed from Southampton aboard the QE2 on 12 May. (Have seen references to the Blues and Royals participating in Operation Sutton, the amphibious landing on San Carlos Bay on 21 May, so your cousin was not in RL's unit.) To compensate for transferred units, 5 Brigade received 1st Battalion Welsh Guards and 2nd Scots Guards on 22 April for two weeks of training. From Hastings and Jenkins' Battle for the Falklands,: "From the beginning, it never seemed that the Ministry of Defence took the prospect of 5 Brigade going to war very seriously." [They had difficulty obtaining supplies.] ...on 12 May, the clothing deficiencies had been solved only by the unofficial intervention of a Guards officer's father in the House of Lords....Senior officers of the brigade were convinced that the Ministry of Defence simply did not expect them to have to fight. "They sailed amidst emotional scenes at the dockside, to enjoy two weeks of magnificent food and wine aboard QE2....Even the war cabinet found something faintly bizarre about dispatching men to war on the greatest luxury liner in the world. "There were also officers who asked in bewilderment, 'What possessed the Ministry of Defence to send two public-duties battalions to the South Atlantic?' Both Guards battalions joined 5 Brigade from prolonged tours of ceremonial duties, during which their infantry training was obviously less intensive than that of a marine or parachute battalion. The Welsh Guards had completed an exercise in Kenya the previous winter. Like all Guards units, these two could be accounted among the finest in the army. But however, enthusiastic and efficient their officers and men, they could scarcely be as mentally and physically attuned to a campaign in the Falklands as 3 Commando Brigade. They were trained to fight from armoured personnel carriers. 'We are not bergen soldiers,' as one of their officers said. In the firm opinion of many of 5 Brigade, the Ministry of Defence sent the Guards because they were expecting them to serve as a garrison, not to have to fight. A very senior officer at the Ministry of Defence co firmed after the war that, when they were dispatched from Britain, 5 Brigade was considered a reserve for 3 Commando Brigade, not a force of matching capabilities." The image of the Guards units, particularly the Welsh Guards, was not enhanced by their failure to complete a "modest yomp" to Goose Green. Of course, they lacked adequate supplies and snow-type vehicles. "They walked for twelve hours before 5 Brigade agreed with their CO that the exercise should be abandoned. The Guardsmen were far too heavily laden. Their handful of Sno-tracs were breaking down every few miles....'We have got to wait for 5 Brigade to get its act together,' they were told." The decis on was made to send them to Fitzroy by sea. This is where it gets really bad. Despite horrible weather and under constant shelling, the SGs made their landing on the beach at Bluff Cove. They were exhausted after spending seven hours at sea and there were numerous cases of exposure. The WG's landing was a disaster, literally, in terms of loss of life. They were put aboard the Galahad, which was hit by an Argentinian air attack. Many died. The WG's image suffered because of poor communications nd judgment; they failed to understand the necessity of disembarking quickly. I've also found this: "The first troops into action on 13 June were thirty men of the headquarters company of the Scots Guards, commanded by Major Hon. Richard Bethell...Bethell, supported by a troop of the Blues and Royals, was to conduct a diversionary attack on Argentine positions south-east of Mount Harriet." So are the "Blues and Royals" Scots Guards? Looked to me as if they were an armored division? In War in the Falklands: The Full Story, by the Sunday Times of London's Insight Team, there is a similar account of 5 Brigade's part in the war. Major General Moore made the decision that they would join battle instead of relieving 40 Commando, which was holding San Carlos; the Lt. Col. was furious: "his marines were trained for the kind of battles that were to come..." Frankly, Hunt also thought the Guards were not up to it. Earlier he had watched a Welsh Guardsmen come ashore at San Carlos wit a full pack on his back, walk 400 yards from the jetty, and then sit down in the road in tears, saying he could not go on. And the crew of the Canberra had been deeply uncomplimentary about the guardsmen, saying that on the voyage from South Georgia they had done no physical exercise, but "sat around all day." They had grumbled at the need to share cabins, and they had complained when lunch was late. (To be fair to the Guards, the weather on that voyage had not been exactly conducive to running around t e decks.) The Guards fought valiantly on Tumbledown; saw nothing to detract from their performance. What or where is Falls Road? Should I know this? (Ann W) Ray McAnally, won the BAFTA for the best actor "A Very British Coup," Alan Plater's story of a Labour Prime Minister's successful fight for control against Whitehall mandarin (there's that word again!) opposition. [From The Times, 20/3/89] Sorry to bore you all with this. Evelyn wanted to know what Lawrence said on the bayonet show on the History Channel. I will have that for you tomorrow. It's bound to be shorter! ;-) Back to our movie.... Could there be another interpretation to the ending line "Isn't this fun?" With Lawrence participating in making this movie, he couldn't have condoned that image's implication that they were having the time of their lives sticking Argentine soliders? Could he?

Karen, that's fascinating. (BTW, I meant to include a link, which didn't work. I am hopelessly HTML-illiterate. How do I do it? This will tell you more about the Blues and Royals). I never meant to claim that the Guards were as tough or as well-trained as the Commandos, the Paras - who were examplary in the Falklands - or the real nuts in the SAS. Simply that they aren't a bunch of wimpy toffs. (The Falls Road is in West Belfast, by the way.) Having said that, I must confess that my cousin always thought of his biggest moment (he had a three-year commission) was presenting colours to the Queen on her birthday. He is a v. good-looking man anyway, and wearing his red tunic and pranci g around on a horse seemed to do wonders for his love life. There was considerable sympathy for RL at the time, I remember (Tumbledown first came out in 87/88?, which is when I saw it), although he was also thought to be a bit of a plonker. I don't remember the message as anti-war, necessarily. More anti-politician. What I found rather chilling was the training that allows men to run screaming into a hail of bullets, and the exhiliration that RL professed to feeling at the top of Tubmledown.

Karen...thanks for your exhaustive research. I only have RL's book and his perspective. He also mentions that not only were they not prepared , but they ran out of ammunition which is why they had to use bayonnets. Could there be another interpretation to the ending line "Isn't this fun?" In the book RL tells this to his second Guardsman in Command as they are approaching Stanley, the city on the other side of the mountain..... ...the lights of Stanley below us and thinking how strange that it hadn't been blacked out. This was supposed to be a war. I turned to Mc Entaggart as we went along and for some inexplicable reason, suddenly cried out, "Isn't this fun?" Seconds later, it happened. I felt a blast in the back of my head and felt more as if I'd been hit by a train than a bullet. It seems to me that RL exhausted, sees the end of the battle ...mission accomplished...sadly an Argie sniper got him.

Ben, for a link, just make sure you put the http:// before the address and you will have a working link. No need to get all fancy. He is a v. good-looking man anyway, and wearing his red tunic and prancing around on a horse seemed to do wonders for his love life. So there must be lots of Mrs. Bennet's around... ;-) Lawrence's book does mention the *social* aspects of being a Guards officer. One does tend to get invited to all the right places. Those two Guards units just happened to have come off long ceremonial stints. They were good, bad timing. And the Gurhka Rifle unit just came from Nepal. I don't remember the message as anti-war, necessarily. More anti-politician. And he got one of the biggest payouts from the South Atlantic Fund (donations from the public).

Robert Lawrence on "Decisive Weapons: The Bayonet": [On training to use bayonets] It's the nearest thing that you get to what you might call battle inoculation. And it was not unknown for our staff to get from the local butchers the gizzards and innards of animals that the butchers would save and put them in plastic bags in these dummies just to get a feel of what would be the real thing. That was the first time that you could expect to start looking at these bayonets or real and it was only eventually when I led my platoon on a right flanking attack against some machine gun posts at the end of Tumbledown that we really took on the classic bayonet charge of the movies as it were. [Music - Scene from Tumbledown of CF charging.] Obviously, this was happening with a great deal of ammunition being used as well. So the bayonet at that point is more of a symbol of your intention than it is som thing you are actually using. They were, of course, used. They were used when we closed with the enemy. (um) And in fact proved themselves to be invaluable pieces of equipment. By the time you use it, you've been firing at each other with modern weapons, often under artillery fire. Grenades are being used, antitank rockets are being used, machine guns. So by the time you close with the enemy, the blood lust is certainly up and the use of the bayonet, ya know, this isn't a precise business at that point of the war. (um) You just use it and you kill him any way you can. Anyone who has ever taken part in close quarter combat, where you are fighting hand to hand with bayonets, I think that can only ever just stay with people who have done it because, by its nature alone, it means you are within feet of this man. You can hear him. You can see him. You can smell him and ultimately with a bayonet you're only ever killing him at a maximum of three feet, let's say. With a small arm or pistol or whatever, yes, they are close range weapons, but there is a detachment. You must also remember that, when you stab someone with a bayonet, you are holding on to one end of something that is stuck into him at the other. You are actually physically joined at that point. You are not standing ten feet away and emptying a magazine from a pistol into him. So it's a very memorable, different event which is the true nature of warfare. Much, much different to pressing a button that releases bombs.

You are actually physically joined at that point. And you hear him beg for his life. One must really be cold blooded to be able to carry on with life after such an experience. The Vietnam veterans had a hard time with it as we've seen in all those films. Everyone says we're supposed to learn from history, I guess they're not referring to war. War seems to be an ungoing tragedy.

and now for something completely different... Real troops enroute to Falklands...had to cut Colin out of picture because of all the controversy!!

Before Jane's Articles' Webpage went into oblivion...I copied these quotes from Colin. Remember, this was not a documentary....this was a drama... and this is how CF depicted RL. "8His girl leaves him, his best friend can't understand him. He survives and triumphs over his disabilities only by adopting a black, bitter outlook. The film's steady refrain is: "It wasn�t worth it. It wasn't worth it." Said Firth: "It's about the creation of a chocolate soldier, a man made to impress tourists outside Buckingharn Palace, who turns into a psychotic beast during wartime, as any man must if he doesn't run away. "It's not about the suffering war victim; it�s about a man who was the perpetrator of his own misfortune, he said. "He comes back furious and inglorious, minus 43 percent of his brain, dribbling and incontinent. Instead of being lauded he's relegated to the back of the church during the memorial service, finally given a medal and told to shut up. ****** And you hear him beg for his life. One must really be cold blooded to be able to carry on with life after such an experience. In re: to this RL says in the book "But had I left him he could have ended up shooting me in the back. " At this point...it's kill or be killed.IMO I don't think it's a matter of being cold blooded.

My grandfather was killed just after D-Day, and my grandmother then married another soldier who had just spent three years in various Japanese PoW camps, which wasn't much fun. Before that, he had fought against the Japanese in Singapore. Much later, shortly before he died (which was three years ago), he told me about a recurring nightmare he'd had for some years after the war. While fighting in Singapore, his battalion had attacked a Japanese machine-gun post which had killed several men. He ended up ju ping into this post, bayonetting a Japanese soldier in the neck and waiting the few minutes, which passed like hours, it took this man to die. His nightmare involved seeing this young Japanese soldier's face, imploring for help, and he had it night after night well into the 1950s. But he'd never told anyone, and seemed to recall it completely dispassionately when he eventually told me. My (step) grandfather was a tough SoB and, in many ways, he was cold-blooded. But no-one is unaffected by the ghastliness of war, and after his experiences he often seemed to prefer the company of his dogs to that of other people. Thank GOD we have none of us had to suffer it directly.

Karen, I'm truly impressed by your extensive knowledge of related topics to Tumbledown. I feel like a kindergartner wandering into honors History. I've been badgered into posting (you know who you are) so I will give my views on this film. I have watched Tumbledown twice and have not read anything else on the subject so everyone is much more knowledgeable than I. I found RL v. sympathetic. CF might have softened the character a bit in the name of drama, but regardless this is about a man who lives his life in the protection of British interests. Whatever Robert's motivation to be a soldier, he and men like him deserve our respect and compassion. It is easy to judge them while the rest of us are living our comfortable lives. RL must be an extremely strong individual to be able not only to survive his injuries, but to perservere over them. I loved the part where the doctor is talking about him and acting like he's not even in the room. RL gets mad and tells the doctor to go stick it up his (sounded like fluffy but prob was another word) ass. I think that illustrated the level of frustration with which RL was dealing. I can't conceive of going through the same experience and coming out of it sane. I consider this to be CF's finest role. Mr. Darcy is dearest to my heart, but RL enabled CF to use the full force of his acting talent. I can't believe the performance that won the BAFTA is better than this one (not that I am totally objective).

Thanks Sue....well put. and RL felt that people not only criticized him but as an injured soldier he was an embarassment. Re: "It wasn't worth it".... He says at the end of the book: "I still believe that what I did in the Falklands War was worth doing . I still believe that what I did had to be done. When thousands of fighting troops suddenly march into your house to tell you, with the barrel of a gun stuck up your nose, that you must no longer speak English, but Spanish, you have a right to be defended by any civilized nation". IMO this indicates that he is finally at peace with himself and his country.

Ben - amen, man, AMEN! CF mentioned several times that for about three years after filming TD, he had suffered heavily from nightmares brought about by his attempts to penetrate the mind of a soldier in mortal combat. He has been trained as a method actor: acting for him involves not so much impersonating, as actually immersing oneself in a character and situations. Tumbledown is unquestionably his greatest acting triumph.

Tumbledown is unquestionably his greatest acting triumph. Apt.0 would be my choice.

I'm sorry the scenes on the QE2 that are in the screenplay were not shown in the final film. There is a lot of background information shared here that was illuminating but not necessarily portrayed in the film. The scenes of them training on the decks outside the Beauty Parlor and the Perfume Boutique might have shown more how incongruous it was that these elite troops, apparently used to a pretty cushy life (at least for the army) were sailing off into war on such a luxury ship. One telling line from the film shows perhaps how the Ministry of Defence never really expected these units to have to fight. Doesn't Lawrence at one point, say the Argies were supposed to run at the sight of them...but they didn't. I too think this is one of his best performances though it's a showy role and one bound to get more notice than his more subtle portrayals. I'm starting to get more fond of Apt. 0 myself. Don't you think the first soldier in the Union Jack shorts is FAT!!!

Rereading my first paragraph above, I realized I wanted to change it. It's not incongruous at all that these elite troops are sailing off to war on such an elegant ship. Rather fitting, actually.

I just want to say one thing: Not everyone who goes off to war comes back a psycho or a drug-addict.That war is a life-altering experience that should never happen ...there is no doubt. But most men return...move on to lead productive lives in an ordinary way...without any fanfare. ******* Tumbledown is unquestionably his greatest acting triumph. Apt.0 would be my choice. Have to go with Tumbledown.

Evelyn, I quite agree. And there was certainly much less fanfare, as you put it, from the generation that returned from the second world war than from those who returned from Vietnam. (I think this says something about the two generations.) The tale I told about by grandfather is a case in point - he related the experience as one might a day in the office, in an oddly detached way. Most of what I know about his experiences I discovered from others. But some experiences are worse than others. And the original point was that killing a man with a bayonet was more disturbing, after the event, than dropping a smart bomb from a great height.

This movie really gets to me. I have to watch it in halves. Maybe because my son took part in Desert Storm. More than likely it is because of the performance given by C.F. He really got into the character. The way the goverment treated the men who participated in that war remined me of the way the men who returned from Vietnam were treated. I always think that I wish the one doctor could have to go through what RL was going through. The man who played his father was very good too, I could feel his frustration. Didn't he go to South Africa?

(Ben) My grandfather was killed just after D-Day Your grandfather? Boy, do I feel old! (Sue) I feel like a kindergartner wandering into honors History. I didn't want anybody to feel somehow inadequate, but this stuff interests me (guess that's why I have a degree in history). Anyway, after I saw this movie, I wondered what all the controversy was all about. I didn't see the film as being anti-war. Britain didn't lose the war as the US did in Vietnam, so there couldn't be any national humiliation at being defeated by some two-bit tyrant like Galtieri, so there had to be more... The Vietnam vets I remember from college tried to hide it. They were ashamed of having been there (both from the standpoint of embarassment at not having gotten out of the draft and at what went on there). Robert Lawrence was proud of what he did for Queen and country. As his brother said, he was a real soldier and that's all he ever wanted to be. I don't think he ever became disillusioned and you can tell from his commentary on the history channel. BTW, the words sound worse in print. They don't sou d half so bad when he is speaking. Even if the Lawerence role is viewed as typical of acting school exercises, I think Colin does a fabulous job showing the fighter inherent in Lawrence's character. From the moment he's hit, he is still in charge (giving commands) and this continues all through. Under no circumstances, does he want to be viewed as a cripple, physically or mentally.

(Evelyn)Not everyone who goes off to war comes back a psycho or a drug-addict.That war is a life-altering experience that should never happen ...there is no doubt. But most men return...move on to lead productive lives in an ordinary way...without any fanfare. I think this has to do with not only what a soldier experiences during the war but his psyche. Dare I say some men are more sensitive than others. RL was a very strong individual with keen insight to who and what he was. Somehow if what happened to Robert happened to Hugh instead, I think the outcome would have been different. Not everyone could go through what Robert endured and come out a complete, functioning person. (Karen)The Vietnam vets I remember from college tried to hide it. They were ashamed of having been there (both from the standpoint of embarassment at not having gotten out of the draft and at what went on there). Robert Lawrence was proud of what he did for Queen and country. I grew up during the Vietnam War and while I was quite young during it, I still remember following the war with fascination and horror. There was no glory or a sense of pride for those veterans. The American public considered the war and them an embarrassment. The Vietnam vets that I know are quite bitter over the experience. At least, RL could be proud of his efforts

Sorry about the italics. I did not close correctly.

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(Ben), And there was certainly much less fanfare, as you put it, from the generation that returned from the second world war than from those who returned from Vietnam. (I think this says something about the two generations.) I agree Ben. There is a tremendous generation gap between the Second World War and that of the Vietnam War generation. Just think of all the social changes taking place in the US, and, the flower power/make love not war, the fashion:the mini skirt, rock music and drugs. The 2nd WW made more sense because you went to defend the �old country�, your roots. Not so with Vietnam, it was not so convincing, it was a vicious, just kill, kill, kill war. Only by then, the collective conscience was growing and it was anti-war. The Eighties were the Thatcher, Reagan decade. The MBA generation in full greed force. (I don�t consider you one of them, you have culture) Do you think Blair would have gone all out for las Maldivas, which IMO should be part of Argentina? You can guess how I feel about Northern Ireland or should I say Eire? Karen, thank you for all the above information, all quite interesting. Did you really cut CF out of that pix? LOL!

It has just been announced that Sophie Thompson (sister of Emma T. and Louise Stubbs in Tumbledown)has won the Best Actress Olivier Award for the musical "Into the Woods". Maybe next year.....!!!

Currently showing at the Donmar! I'd love to see CF getting an award (long overdue!), but I always think the odds are stacked against him. I even hold my breath about his reviews! But maybe the tide will turn. I've really enjoyed reading the above discussion...only lack of time has prevented me from contributing. Will try to add some points over the weekend.

He is too handsome. Pretty boys don't get awards: everybody thinks success comes too easy to them.

Pretty boys don't get awards, says Arami. So THAT'S why my mantlepiece is so bare, darn it. ;-) If only my jaw were a little flabbier, my eyes a little duller, my cheekbones a little vaguer and my butt not so firm...I'd be drowning in awards. Or maybe it's because I've as much acting talent as a gnat. A gnat that's very bad at acting.

(Arami) Pretty boys don't get awards: everybody thinks success comes too easy to them. The latter part is remarkably close to a line (and theme) in The Way We Were. (Ben) Or maybe it's because I've as much acting talent as a gnat. A gnat that's very bad at acting. Should we be looking for you in Antz or A Bug's Life? ;-) I've been thinking about Hugh a little bit. Very strange relationship that appears to exist between him and Robert. As I said before, there is no Hugh in RL's book, in fact, I don't think he mentions any friends from the regiment at all (Evelyn??) At the Stubbs' home, Colin actually has a sadistic look in his eye when he refers to Hugh. He taunts him constantly. Is he keeping Hugh around to make him feel guilty? It's almost like they feed off each other. Also, at the bar before they ship out, Tug says to Robert: "That man is not your friend, Robert..." What is he?

(Ben)A gnat that's very bad at acting. You alluded to performing at the Donmar once as a "young thesp"...Or am I mistaken..... care to expand on that? ****** Guardsman Mc Taggart was with him when he was hit...but he would not have been a friend since I assume that rank is enlisted. **** Tug says to Robert: "That man is not your friend, Robert..." What is he? I have wondered about that remark. Robert's remark to that is interesting too: Yes, he is.Tug. He'll do it . To be honest , he'll do what I tell him. He is almost obsessed with the fear of being a "cripple". Does he blame Hugh for his condition?

So THAT'S why my mantlepiece is so bare, darn it. ;-) (Ben) Well, we don't judge men by their mantlepieces! :-) A few points, picking up on earlier discussion threads, particularly the impact of/recovery from the war experience, and the use of bayonets. It's been well documented that close combat is much more traumatic than the more detached experience of smart, or semi-smart weaponry. Air bomber commands don't watch their victims die, or hear them plead for mercy. The bayonet was used extensively in WW1 and was notoriously unreliable as a killing tool. Infantry men had to plunge the bayonet in several times, it would sometimes break, become imbedded in bone. Killing a man took time, and soldiers, often decent and sensitive men, had to live with the very real memory of the "enemy" they had killed. Some soldiers in WW1 committed suicide because they were tormented by guilt. Many suffered from post-war trauma and depression. There's a very moving poem by Wilfred Owen who was killed in 1918, which I think relates directly to RL's experiences in "Tumbledown", and shows that wars never change and, most emphatically, "it's not worth it". Some quotes (not the entire poem) from "Disabled".. He sits in a wheeled chair, waiiting for dark, And shivered in his ghastly suit of grey, Legless, sewn short at elbow. Through the park Voices of boys rang saddening like a hymn, Voices of play and pleasure after day, Till gathering sleep had mothered them from him. Ah he was handsome when he used to stand Each evening on the curb of the quays. His old soft cap slung half-way down his ear: Proud of his neck, scarfed with a sunburn band, And of his curl, and all his reckless gear, Down to the gloves of sun-brown on his hand. ........ Some cheered him home, but not as crowds cheer Goal. Only a solemn man who brought him fruits Thanked him, and then enquired about his soul. Now he will spend a few sick years in Institutes And do what things the rules consider wise, And take whatever pity they may dole. Tonight he noticed how the women's eyes Passed from him to strong men that were whole. How cold and late it is! Why don't they come And put him into bed? Why don't they come? Mandatory reading for all those who consider war a great and glorious endeavour?

Quote too much Owen and I'll start to cry... Too awful. Have you read any other Great War poets - Brooke, Sassoon, Graves? Heart-rending stuff, all of it - the ghastly carnage destroying more than millions of lives - but Owen is my favourite.

Have we read any other Great War poets, Ben? Ahem, I guess you're not familiar with the radioplay, The One Before the Last based on Rupert Brooke's relationship with Ka Cox (and other equally complicated affairs). Guess who plays Rupert Brooke? And since our horizons are ever expanding due to the varied repertoire of our boy, yes, many of us have read at least Brooke if not the others. (Karen) Also, at the bar before they ship out, Tug says to Robert: "That man is not your friend, Robert..." What is he? A doormat? Another example of Hugh being treated like crap - by Robert, by his girlfriend. Yes, what is Hugh's purpose? An example of the only person who can understand him because he's been through it with him? He keeps saying how Hugh is jealous of him. Perhaps, but your comment, Eveyln, He is almost obsessed with the fear of being a "cripple". Does he blame Hugh for his condition? makes me think perhaps Robert is jealous of Hugh too since Hugh came out "whole". Another scene from the screenplay I wish we had seen...the Swedish "prostitute" who comes to the hospital.

Have we read any other Great War poets, Ben? Ahem, I guess you're not familiar with the radioplay, The One Before the Last based on Rupert Brooke's relationship with Ka Cox (and other equally complicated affairs). Guess who plays Rupert Brooke? And since our horizons are ever expanding due to the varied repertoire of our boy, yes, many of us have read at least Brooke if not the others. (Karen) Also, at the bar before they ship out, Tug says to Robert: "That man is not your friend, Robert..." What is he? A doormat? Another example of Hugh being treated like crap - by Robert, by his girlfriend. Yes, what is Hugh's purpose? An example of the only person who can understand him because he's been through it with him? He keeps saying how Hugh is jealous of him. Perhaps, but your comment, Eveyln, He is almost obsessed with the fear of being a "cripple". Does he blame Hugh for his condition? makes me think perhaps Robert is jealous of Hugh too since Hugh came out "whole". Another scene from the screenplay I wish we had seen...the Swedish "prostitute" who comes to the hospital.

Sorry, must have hit the "response" button twice.

Quote too much Owen and I'll start to cry... The one that makes me cry is Brooke's... THE SOLDIER If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field That is forever England. There shall be In that rich earth a richer dust concealed; A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware, Gave, once her flowers to love, her ways to roam, A body of Englands's breathing English air, Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home. .......

(bethan), Some soldiers in WW1 committed suicide because they were tormented by guilt. Many suffered from post-war trauma and depression. True and unfortunately, they didn't have all the psychologists out in full force ready to help them with their trauma as they do now. It was all too new. Reagarding Hugh, Robert may wish to be around him as a reminder that he did not fullfil his promise, that his handicap is partly Hugh's fault. Hugh may feel this as well, and spends time with Robert as to recapture the past before the Tumbledown.

I forgot to mention last night that my knowledge of Rupert Brooke's poems comes from Evelyn who very kindly brought back a book of his poems from when she was in London last autumn. Back to Robert...how about that left shoulder motion as he kisses Sophie? (Need a bit of levity here.)

Back to Robert...how about that left shoulder motion as he kisses Sophie? (Need a bit of levity here.) Didn't he do that in FP too when he kissed Ruth Gemell?

Just popping in to add some of my thoughts re: Tumbledown. 1 - Robert's aggressive attitude: As I see it Robert Lawrence's aggression was essential for his recovery, in two ways: a) I think it was his aggression that gave him the force to get through this dreadful time, to get over this terrible injury. I suppose that's why the physio therapist tries to provoke him by showing him how helpless he his, by showing him off as a cripple. I see that provocation as the (successful) attempt to set free through his aggression the adrenaline that keeps Robert going, the attempt to mobilise the inner forces he needs to get through the tortures of his recovery. The way Robert was treated by t e medical staff etc. not only woke his aggression but through that his ambition to recover, to proof that he is still there and �not a cripple" - Of course he has been ambitious before and a less strong character wouldn't have recovered so well, I think. b) The other reason, why I think his aggression was essential for his recovery is, that I'm convinced that in his situation he simply had to be an embarrassment to the persons in charge, otherwise it would have been too easy for them to ignore him, to put him aside, to cut back his rights and needs. - perfect example: the doctors who were talking as if he hadn't been there too. 2 - As much as I like the film I think he didn't really convey Robert Lawrence's intention of telling his story, as I understood it reading his book. I think his aim is not only to tell how well he has recovered but more under what circumstances, to show that there are two classes of returning soldiers: The ones who have not been injured or at last not so seriously that they couldn't return to the live they've lived before and the ones like him who had been seriously ill in a way that it had changed their future live completely and who just want to be treated with the same respect and esteem but don't get it without fighting for it. I'd say his idea w s to show a dark side of war that most people don't realise (or simply ignore) and that's not the cruelty and the horror of the battle but the cruelty of an every day live one is exposed to in the case one returns from war in a state like Robert Lawrence's, to show the disrespect and (perhaps even worse) the ignorance of the people you've risk your life for - however they may think of it's necessity; to show at what length one has to go to gain back or not to lose ones dignity. I think in the book there are some good examples of that which they left out in the film, alas. And in the book Robert Lawrence mentions a good question: what would have happened if all this had happened to a �simple" soldier from �nowhere" with a father working I don't know where, in a coal mine or whatever, who wouldn't have know as his father had known as a senior officer where to go, to whom to address and who has been able to put in all his efforts to get the best for his son. Just my interpretation.

I agree, Kirsten that it was Robert's "aggressive" attitude that pulled him through. A attitude, of course, that he always had - witness his pre-injury scenes, especially the bar scene. I don't particularly like the guy but that's meaningless. he didn't really convey Robert Lawrence's intention of telling his story, as I understood it reading his book. Do you mean the writers or director didn't convey it? I think Colin did what was called for in the script. Good point about what happened to the other wounded soldiers whose fathers were not military men. You could argue that Robert fought the system for all of the men. Too bad that wasn't shown in the film - we see the others languishing in the hospital but don't really know what happened to them. That shoulder roll when he kisses - one of my favorite signature CF mannerisms.

Agree with Kirsten on the aggression and determination . (Kirsten)....he didn't really convey Robert Lawrence's intention of telling his story, as I understood it reading his book. (Heide)Do you mean the writers or director didn't convey it? I think Colin did what was called for in the script. Agree with both of you...Yes, Colin did depict RL in the script ..but Charles Wood the screenplay writer didn't follow the "spirit" of the book.Colin's RL not as aggressive ...the book is not anti-war (I use this term in the vernacular...no one is pro-war!)And IMO the film was.However, CW says in the forward that this is a drama and not a documentary.Robert was not ashamed to have been in the Falklands War...felt it was justified...Charles Wood has another opinion . I wonder if Colin didn't get a BAFTA because the film was so controversial.Although the film did get the BAFTA that year. "

(Kirsten)....he didn't really convey Robert Lawrence's intention of telling his story, as I understood it reading his book. (Heide)Do you mean the writers or director didn't convey it? I think Colin did what was called for in the script. (Karen)Yes, Colin did depict RL in the script ..but Charles Wood the screenplay writer didn't follow the "spirit" of the book. Yes, that's what I meant to say.

Ooops, sorry, the last quote was from Evelyn, not Karen.

Any opinions on Robert's father? mother? brothers? Which Robert do you think was the most complex for CF to play? Robert, pre-injury; injured Robert; post-injury Robert. Anybody detect any Darcy mannerisms?

I will respond to your questions later, Heide. But after viewing T. again....I saw a parallel between George Stubbs and Charles Wood, the author. Both were professed pacicfists, and interviewed Robert in order to tell his story.Both admired Robert though, "each held different political views" from Robert. Both George and Charles Wood had served in the military. Do you think Charles Wood wrote himself into this film in the character of George Stubbs?

I am late to this discussion, as I only recently requested and received the tape of TD. Please forgive me if I am revisiting some of the themes discussed earlier.... The images of disability and impotence were prominent in the film. IMO, RL was not the only one in TD who was disabled or powerless. Some people enter the so-called *helping professions* because of their inability to heal themselves. Therefore, the disabled are tending to the disabled. During RL�s convalescence in the hospital, the night nurses were more concerned about how he had violated their privacy (by involuntarily listening to their conversations) than the fact that they were violating RL�s dignity. The nurses/ physical therapists (and their patronizing use of the *hospital we*) were almost dumbfounded by Robert� burst of anger as they forced him to look in the mirror. The arrogant chaplain could not tend to RL�s spirit�. The only person who treated RL with a modicum of respect was the doctor who offered him a beer. (I seem to be in the minority in thinking that the hospital scenes were not exaggerated. Guess you have had better experiences with the medical profession than I.) I am curious: do you think that RL (as portrayed by CF) is devoid of self-pity?

Two very good questions: (Evelyn) Do you think Charles Wood wrote himself into this film in the character of George Stubbs? I'd never thought of this. From your references to the real Robert Lawrence, I've gathered there never was a Stubbs. Always thought of them as the method used for Robert to tell his story. It makes perfect sense then for Wood to interject himself into the story. He admires Robert and finds him fascinating though he seems to look at him as a case study. Lisa, your points were very thoughtful too. do you think that RL (as portrayed by CF) is devoid of self-pity? Very good question and right now I'd have to say yes. When does he ever express any self-pity? He cries but it is for his men he thinks he's lost, not for himself. That presents another interesting insight into the man.

One more thing...I must say while I'm not enamoured of soldiers I do like those uniforms. Not that I fall for just any man in a uniform but if he's wearing a beret...well!! I hate to admit to being so shallow, but I can't help those base urges.

(Evelyn) He is almost obsessed with the fear of being a "cripple." Does he blame Hugh for his condition? For someone whose profession required he be "fit," what could be worse than being a cripple? The army had no jobs for him in that state. With his limited perspective (upbringing), he could not envision living as anything other than a soldier. I do think he blamed Hugh and that might explain some of the comments directed at Hugh that I thought were cruel and/or sadistic. (Bethan) It's been well documented that close combat is much more traumatic than the more detached experience of smart, or semi-smart weaponry...Some soldiers in WW1 committed suicide because they were tormented by guilt. Many suffered from post-war trauma and depression. Very true what you say about killing at close range; the same is echoed in RL's words on the TV show and in the scene in the movie with Pete Postewaite. However, I didn't get a sense either from his book or the movie that he was traumatized or tormented by the experience. Not to say that it was done "all in a day's work," but there is the exchange between George and Robert where Robert says he is not "ashamed" and George calls him a killer who "does not apologize." Robert tells the Postewaite character t at "It didn't feel like anything." Some cheered him home, but not as crowds cheer Goal. Only a solemn man who brought him fruits Thanked him, and then enquired about his soul. Thank you, Bethan, for bringing in some poetry to our discussion. Most appropriate. (Heide) An example of the only person who can understand him because he's been through it with him?...makes me think perhaps Robert is jealous of Hugh too since Hugh came out "whole". Robert says: "In lots of ways I don't think dear old Hugh knows what I've been through." Maybe he isn't really referring to the fighting, but the aftermath (hospitals, military bureaucracy, etc.). If he is jealous of Hugh, IMO, it would only be because Hugh could go on being a soldier. Hugh is more screwed up psychologically than Robert. (Heide) Another scene from the screenplay I wish we had seen...the Swedish "prostitute" who comes to the hospital. Oh, yes, his *other* physiotherapy! I like the description of the action: "Robert is nonplussed. Ingrid slides her hand under the coverlet." Then as she leaves, Robert says, "Well done, Ingrid." Robert apparently believes at that point that his injuries extend to that area as well. Agree that scene needed to be there. Otherwise, how could he go to Sophie's? (Heide) how about that left shoulder motion as he kisses Sophie? (Evelyn) Didn't he do that in FP too when he kissed Ruth Gemell? Yes, but in this one he really grinds that shoulder. I've watched it a million times and never get tired of it...and the preceding bit getting out of bed!! Oooowheeeee!! (Kirsten) As I see it Robert Lawrence's aggression was essential for his recovery Absolutely. Makes you wonder if someone less determined/aggressive by nature would have had such a successful recovery. You have to want to overcome these types of things. It's far easier to sit back and live on a disability pension and be bitter. Robert's inherent dislike of limitations made that choice impossible. (Kirsten) As much as I like the film I think he didn't really convey Robert Lawrence's intention of telling his story, as I understood it reading his book. RL's book came out after the movie, and I expect that Lawrence wanted to expand on his experience. So in some respects, your observation is correct, Kirsten. The movie doesn't (perhaps couldn't) delve that deeply into his life afterward. Lawrence was intimately involved in the making of the movie and formed a production company with Wood. What I see is each little scene of frustration, ignorance and triumph attempts to show what Lawrence confronted in his battle to be recognized as a fully functioning a d contributing member of society. (Heide) I don't particularly like the guy but that's meaningless. Can't let that one go... Why do you find him unlikeable? (Heide) You could argue that Robert fought the system for all of the men. Too bad that wasn't shown in the film Maybe because he didn't. He did it for himself. There are scenes of concern for the injured members of his platoon, but we never see him really acting as an advocate for them. He seems to be a loner, looking for individual recognition. Maybe that's what Evelyn was referring to earlier about Robert not having the right personality for this profession??? (Heide) That shoulder roll when he kisses - one of my favorite signature CF mannerisms. Yeah, he can give me his signature any old time. (Evelyn) I wonder if Colin didn't get a BAFTA because the film was so controversial. Although the film did get the BAFTA that year. I think the film was controversial because of the antagonism going on between the government and the media, especially the BBC's alleged anti-Thatcherism. There were two other Falklands dramatizations in the works at the time, and the BBC was accused of only going forward on the ones that made the war/government look bad. (Heide) Any opinions on Robert's father? mother? brothers? Initially, I found the mother unsympathetic. Those scenes where she is more concerned that the dog and John's father felt what was happening to Robert during Tumbledown seemed selfish. But when she saw Robert in the hospital, I felt her own devastation and *her* interpretation of the words, "it wasn't worth it." All her pride of being a military wife and mother, seeing her son, in full ceremonial dress, performing in little Kodak moments was stripped away by the realities of war that she never consider d. She was only accustomed to the nice side. The brothers? Didn't get much of a sense of them. The father!! He's one for the books. I believe that he comes off pretty bad. Maybe that's just in my eyes. He is such a believer in the system. The epitome of privilege. (Heide) Anybody detect any Darcy mannerisms? I'm sure Darcy would have liked to have done a shoulder-grinding kiss after he and Elizabeth exchange looks during the piano scene at Pemberley! (Evelyn) Do you think Charles Wood wrote himself into this film in the character of George Stubbs? Excellent observation. The authorial voice. Makes perfect sense to me. (Lisa) I seem to be in the minority in thinking that the hospital scenes were not exaggerated. Guess you have had better experiences with the medical profession than I. I'm part of the minority (and not silent). I found the mirror and chaplain scene to be believable, but there were other medical professionals besides that one doctor who were sympathetic: the military nurse who tends him after his outing to King's Road. She tells him like it is, but not in a cruel way. (Lisa) do you think that RL (as portrayed by CF) is devoid of self-pity? I wouldn't expect someone like him to succumb to self-pity. He was from a military family; it wouldn't be allowed. If perhaps he regretted what he did, the choices he made in life, then he might feel sorry for himself. But our Bobbit is "a man of action." Isn't that how he is described? He takes responsibility for his actions. He wanted to fight. He knew the risks and accepted them. Now, all he had to do was overcome the public's image of him--a more difficult task than overcoming his physical limitat ons. (Heide) Not that I fall for just any man in a uniform but if he's wearing a beret...well!! I hate to admit to being so shallow, but I can't help those base urges. Base? What's base about that? I like him in his blue blazer and white pants with the fedora at the end. Yes'm! ;-)

(Heide) I don't particularly like the guy but that's meaningless. (Karen)Can't let that one go... Why do you find him unlikeable? Purely a personal level, Karen. He's got a huge ego, I never find that attractive. I think he likes the action to be centered around him. He's cocky and rude. At the Stubbs: "I know you don't like smoking" as he lights up a cigarette. Mr. Stubbs tells him it was fascinating to have met him. Robert just smiles as if he's thinking, of course I'm fascinating. He's good to his men, have no sense as to how he is with women. I'm not judging him during his recovery and of course I'm making my judgment ba ed not on any familiarity with the real Robert Lawrence other than the film. (Heide) You could argue that Robert fought the system for all of the men. Too bad that wasn't shown in the film. (Karen) Maybe because he didn't. He did it for himself. If that's true, simply another reason to dislike him. He is an officer, not just a grunt. Surely some responsibility there. Initially, I found the mother unsympathetic. Those scenes where she is more concerned that the dog and John's father felt what was happening to Robert during Tumbledown seemed selfish Never felt that. Many mothers (and I'm not one) say they can sense if something has happened to their child. You often hear of this after the fact and I'm not questioning that it happens so what would happen if your child is in a horrific accident and you had no clue until the hospital called. Where was your intuition? Are you an inadequate mother because you didn't sense it? I think Robert's mother was questioning her adequacy as a mother. Thinks if her father-in-law sensed it, she should have. The father can only talk about how brave Robert is and how proud he is of him. His mother could care less - she only cares that her son has been grievously injured. She doesn't care how it happened or how brave he was. I like him in his blue blazer and white pants with the fedora at the end. Yes'm! ;-) Glad we agree on the essentials.

Having part of one's brain destroyed CAN alter one's personality. A good example was that easygoing miner in the mid-1800's who blew a crowbar through his head tamping dynamite--didn't lose consciousness either and lived. But the path of the abr was from below, destroying one eye socket and a good part of the frontal lobes in the forehead. This is the seat of inhibitions and decision-making. His personality changed remarkably to an aggressive, argumentative man who died of extreme alcoholism. From what I saw of the damage, it was the right rear portion of RL's brain that was destroyed. This governs movement and sensation in the opposite side of the body. So, yes, the vast majority of the damage was in his movement, as the front of the brain did not appear to be damaged. He'd probably not exhibit severe alterations in personality--it looked to me that he was just as capable of being an unpleasant S.O.B. before the injury as after it!! I think Mrs. Stubbs was wary because she realized she was in the presence of men that were both shocked and shocking--Laughing or joking about the most grisly things, treating it all as a game...the one most nonchalant about the most horrifying details wins. It is a game to cover the trauma of what they were exposed to, but they were in turn exposing it to those around them. They had a willing audience in Mr. Stubbs, however. And Hugh. How could he blame Hugh for his present condition, which was being alive, though maimed. Watching how hard Robert fought to live and recover instead of giving up and dying, do you honestly think today he would say, "I'd rather be dead?" The jealousy comment, I think, just reflects on his personality...he is a bit of a bully, after all, if he is allowed to get away with it. Why Hugh tolerates such demeaning abuse may be his penance for coming back whole, it's true. Does that make him a bi of an enabler??

This thing about brain damage - I don't see it as automatic, just because one or another part is affected. Think what it does to your perception of yourself and your prospects in life, the loss of physical powers, the disfigurement, the anger, resentment, despair. From there it becomes severely psychological. It's easy to wallow in self-pity and one has every right to do so. It's a great victory if you don't allow it to destroy you in the end - RL has achieved that; the miner obviously didn't succeed.

(Arami) ..."brain damage - I don,t see it as automatic...It's a great victory if you don't allow it to destroy you in the end - RL has achieved that; the miner obviously didn't succeed." If by "to succeed" you mean that the miner could ultimately control his violent outbursts...sorry; That is like saying that RL will ultimately control the use of his left arm and hand. The"equipment" that controlled those functions was destroyed in both permanently. So it is, to a certain extent "automatic", I'm afraid. On the other hand, the effects of trauma and devestation are things that take tremendous inner strength to regain the sense of the self being in control of his own existance...in that, RL succeeded, but I,m afraid the miner couldn,t.

(Heide) I don't particularly like the guy but that's meaningless. Actually, it might not be that meaningless and may explain why Colin didn't receive the BAFTA. Rarely do unlikeable characters win Best Actor type awards. About the only one I can think of is George C. Scott for Patton. Even disgusting and evil characters like Hannibal Lector are likeable overall, but the way RL is portrayed by Wood you don't see if he has an likeable qualities other than to admire him for his bravery (maybe) and determination to overcome his disabilities. Another good-looking scene: When he takes off his tunic after the Key ceremony and you see him in the Human League t-shirt and braces. Not bad, not bad at all!!

It just so happens that HBOP is showing Hostages this month. It was on yesterday, but alas, I didn't have a blank tape. It will be on again on Friday/early Sat. Shall I tape it? There are some scenes that are not in the A&E version.

There are scenes cut from the A&E Hostages but I don't know how many people have this version. Mine is from HBO and many others have the actual video. Still, can't hurt to tape, Laura, if you've got an extra cassette lying around.

Will do, I can tape while I'm in bed (sleeping, really!) Have fun you guys, I'll miss you!

Yeah, but the bigger issue is sending the tape, isn't it Laura? ;-p

We're not finished with Tumbledown yet unless you want it to be. Any new viewers with fresh ideas? (Or old viewers with stale ones :)) I'm curious...why do you think Robert goes around showing pictures of his gory wounds to everyone? He also points to his head at the old man in the veteran"s (?) hospital and yells that he's proud of it, grandpa. What is he proud of? That he went to war? That his injury is a badge of honor? That he defied death by surviving? And we can get more base: Favorite looks? Mine is the tough soldier in his natty beret, Karen's is the post-injury Robert in his panama. There's another one I can think of but perhaps someone else would like to bring it up.

Oh goodie, I'd like to continue with Tumbledown!! (Heide) I'm curious...why do you think Robert goes around showing pictures of his gory wounds to everyone? I agree, Heide, he is proud of what he's done and his injuries are evidence that he, an officer, was in the thick of the battle. Remember, at the first hospital, where he asked about other officers. His implication being that perhaps other officers hung back and let the grunts clear the way; otherwise, they should have been in the ward too. Also, he is definitely a guy who goes for the shock value of is his actions. Like the bullying and belligerent attitudes he affects. He wants to shock people. Taking out pictures of one's head injuries is not the same as showing someone your grandchildren. And Robert knows he's going to show them to Mr and Mrs Stubbs. He says something like: "You always do." It has become a routing and Robert shows a certain sad acceptance that that is what Robert likes to do. ...on those baser things, remember my fav is the *fit* Robert jogging around the barracks! ;-)

I copied this quote of CF's from Jane's Article website before she took it down. Tumbledown was the most exciting film script to work on that I've ever had, and Charles Wood is the most underrated screenwriter possibly in the world! It's funny, you know, in the theater you can talk about a Mamet play, you can talk about going to a Pinter play, but you'd never talk about a Wood script. And I think that the writer 's position in terms of recognition in the business, is just appalling. We're nowhere without them. I've thought of Charles ever since I did Tumbledown. Nothing else has been interesting in the same way." Of course he might feel differently since SIL. At first I disagreed with Colin...thought the script had lots of holes but when I read it again, I changed my mind. (See....there's hope for me and FP!!) I think the flash-back technique is brilliant..esp. when he interjects the Bergen Man swaying , and confused....(symbolic of RL even in his postwar life??)throughout the script.And of course keeping the actual battle of Tumbledown til the end is v. innovative. Most war films begin with the battle. ***** Favorite Looks: For me has to be the ending at Chelsea Barracks. The Panama hat raised in salute. (Karen)There's another one I can think of but perhaps someone else would like to bring it up. The one in that big baggy sweater , like Walker in 3 DOR, ain't bad either. **** Karen)why do you think Robert goes around showing pictures of his gory wounds to everyone? Agree with Karen.This guy likes to shock people.Make them uncomfortable looking at his disability.As if to say: "this is your part...you have to view my injuries".

I sincerely hope Colin surprises us in the future...but I maintain that he did his best work ten years ago.

I sincerely hope Colin surprises us in the future...but I maintain that he did his best work ten years ago. So do I, so do I, Evelyn, hope for a surprise in the future I mean. And I still haven�t seen Tumbledown, have to get Heide�s tape converted. I just wish you�ll want to hear what I think of it by the time it�s done, even though everything about it has been already discussed here! WARNING: anybody who likes Fever Pitch, do not read the following: Fever Pitch is a disappointment to me, and NOT because of Colin, I think he did good and sincere work and is cute as hell in it. Yes, I�m getting used to that anti-Darcy style of Paul Ashworth, it�s rather touching actually. Poor Colin, how he must have suffered from the Darcy thing, to choose a role like that after it. Mr Ash worth is such an opposite to Mr. Ten thousand a year that it makes me laugh. But what surprised me is that FP is such a low budget film and worse is that the cast is so good while the film isn�t. You feel sorry for the excellent actors in such a film where so many simple but important things just suck. For instance, I don�t think that the story of Paul�s youth works in the film, it breaks the structure badly and the boy in Paul�s role is terrible!(Not to mention his hairdo). You�re right Evelyn, the screenplay of FP is not the best one in the world and I doubt very much that it�ll be a success in the US. Girls, I�m beginning to understand the desperate debate here about Colin�s career in January much better now. What he has done after P&P is good work in some pretty unsuccessful movies (FP, Nostromo, ATA) and some that haven�t even reached the market, and a small part in SiL....I�d love to know what he really thinks of his career and what the good reviews of 3DOR and the hordes of fans at his feet in Donmar mean to him. A LOT, I believe, and that�s why I�m glad that we were there to add our small part int the celebration.

(Karen) It has become a routing and Robert (Hugh?) shows a certain sad acceptance that that is what Robert likes to do. You mean Hugh there, right? And if so, you opened up another view into the relationship between R & H. It's a burden that Hugh has to bear for not finishing Robert off, for not being the one who was wounded. A burden that Robert likes to make a little heavier, perhaps. (Evelyn) I think the flash-back technique is brilliant. Absolutely and also very confusing. I had to watch it more than once to understand that the film is really three stories and they're interwoven beautifully. (Karen) on those baser things, remember my fav is the *fit* Robert jogging around the barracks! ;-) Of, of course. Those tight jeans! Does anyone know if CF had to go through any physical fitness training for this? Not that he's buff ;-) but he does look more beefed up and quite fit. I keep thinking of his very flat stomach as he hurriedly pulls his pants on in Sophie's flat. (Evelyn) I maintain that he did his best work ten years ago. Surprise, surprise, I don't necessarily disagree with you, Evelyn, and Elena too. But I'd say that it's not his work that was better 10 years ago but the work he's been in. After all, he never disappoints us, does he Evelyn, no matter what he's in. (Elena) WARNING: anybody who likes Fever Pitch, do not read the following: LOL, Elena. It's okay, sweetie, you bring up some very valid points and I'll defend your right to the end to air your opinion. Yes, I think the young Paul was awful and the production does look low budget. But I love the script because I think it reflects so accurately the mindset this man is in. I'm very glad you brought your viewpoint to us and I hope you keep doing so. We did a film discussion on FP awhile ago but I'm game to talk about it or any of his films any time.

(Elena) ..... I�m glad that we were there to add our small part int the celebration. Very well put, Elena. I think last Saturday was an emotional evening for him as well.He realized that he had fans all from over the world...that's why I kept telling him where everyone was from.It was a celebration and I hope the beginning of good offers from directors and producers who see his amazing talen and the fact that he has a following. **** Oh, ....FP is.. alright. But the guy has so much to offer to be in that nickel n' dime film!After I first viewed it, I remember telling Nan."Well, he doesn't have to get a BAFTA speech ready for that one." It grew on me somewhat after a few more viewings. Who knows.. it might do well in the US? I equate it to "The Waterboy",and it did Ok at the boxoffice. **** By all means, pl. tell us what you think of Tumbledown, Elena. It was a television production and also low-budget, but quality stuff.

Fever Pitch = The Waterboy?! No way, Josefina!!! It is just a nice romantic comedy. Nothing mind probing, but pleasant, whereas a Waterboy is money down the drain and the permanent loss of probably 90 minutes of my life that I will never regain. A complete waste of my time and money. I enjoyed watching Fever Pitch. It wasn't deep and it wasn't the best display for CF's talents, but I liked it. It was decent entertainment and I continue to hum the soundtrack. ;-)

(Elena) WARNING: anybody who likes Fever Pitch, do not read the following: I know we are not talking about FP but I had to say I agree, Elena. Paul Ashworth was a slob. Cute though Colinwas, I think he was too much gravitas to play a part like that. Alexander Walker, the eminent film critic of the Evenong Standard had a damning review of FP which I hated at the time but sanity has returned and I think he was right. I will see if it is still on their site and give you a link if I can. Re Colin's recent work. I am pleased that he is doing television again. As he said himself, television has given him some of the best satisfaction in terms of work. I think it is very hard for British film actors. British films do not get distributed and it is hard to get good Hollywood parts unless you play the Hollywood fame game.

That should read .....has too much gravitas... Do not read the following if you do not want to read a bad review http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/results.html?in_text=colin+firth&in_button=Go

(Allison)Cute though Colinwas, I think he was too much gravitas to play a part like that. Alexander Walker, the eminent film critic of the Evenong Standard had a damning review of FP which I hated at the time but sanity has returned and I think he was right. To continue...Trash FP Day......:-) Allison...You hit on the word I wanted gravitas. IMO he was desperate to shake the Darcy mantra and this was as far to the left as was available...short of a "George of the Jungle" genre. BTW I went to the E'vning Standard link but only found 3 DOR review.

What is the Darcy mantra , by the way? Or do you mean mantle? :-)

What is the Darcy mantra , by the way? Or do you mean mantle? :-) "I shall conquer this, I shall conquer this..." :-)

I loved Fever Pitch (not that anyone really cares, but just to contribute to the conversation). I think it was really honest in terms of depicting what can go through men's heads as they try to juggle both their romantic lives and their personal interests. Yes-- I know of men who seriously weigh their options between going spending wuality time with their sig. others, or staying home to watch the game on TV. Allison: As he said himself, television has given him some of the best satisfaction in terms of work. Good to hear he feels this way. I was always skeptical about his opinions re; telly. He's certainly well within his rights not to own one himself, but I was afraid he'd written the meduim off completely. I get really irritated by people who don't count TV as a legit. resource for the arts...that there's nothing but crap on it. It's one of the few places people with little money can go to get any type of exposure to the arts, when the theatre, opera, even films, are too pricey. And we know how much Colin s rives to become a "man of the people." OK, I'm jumping off my soapbox now...

yikes! lots of typo's and cut offs... I meant to say: "going and spending time with sig. others" and, "...we know how much Colin strives to become a 'man of the people.'"

(evelyn)What is the Darcy mantra , by the way? Or do you mean mantle? :-) "I shall conquer this, I shall conquer this..." :-) LOL! When do we start on 3DoR? something I have seen recently - forgive my egotism...

(Evelyn)BTW I went to the E'vning Standard link but only found 3 DOR review. Sorry about that. Haven't time to sort it out but if you go to Thisislondon site and search on Colin Firth, the review is number 11 of 11 hits. Winter. I think television is a more repsectable medium for an actor than it is in the States. It is not taken as a sign that your career is slipping if you take on roles in television drama. Look at DJD. She appears in soaps and she is la creme de la creme.

(Winter)I loved Fever Pitch (not that anyone really cares) What, no-one cares?! I do, I�m very interested to hear opposite views! And why couldn�t we talk here without apologies about all the stuff he has made, old or new, if we come up with something to say? Anyway, I watched FP the second time last night. Something is happening to me....I liked him as Paul A even more than the first time. Just WHAT is it in him that makes me this way, most other actors in films are quite unsignificant to me and I wouldn�t bother to watch their films twice.

(Elena), Anyway, I watched FP the second time last night. Something is happening to me....I liked him as Paul A even more than the first time. Just WHAT is it in him that makes me this way, most other actors in films are quite unsignificant to me and I wouldn�t bother to watch their films twice. You shall conquer this...you shall! (ONLY KIDDING!) Paul is just like a kid who needs love but also loves to play. It is the mother in all of us that gravitate to this character. My fav. scene is when he is asked to stay over at her place and he does a double take, walks straight over and kisses her. (That is the one I always rewind) (we seem to be tumbling down to a fever pitch)

All though I do not think it is a very good movie, I do think it has some wonderful Colin moments. I know we have discussed this before and we are supposed to be talking about Tumbledown but don't you love the scene at the parents evening when he is talking to Robert's mum? So cute. And when he says "go for the �12 seats, sting the bastard for all you can get..." Love it, well him actually:-)

Allison)All though I do not think it is a very good movie, I do think it has some wonderful Colin moments. We all concur on that.Dynamite soundtrack too. Like I told him...he never disappoints us. But the character in the script is never developed...the film just turns out to be a string of events.

Yes! the soundtrack is amazing, Evelyn. Thanks for picking it up for me. I listen to it every morning on my commute to school. I esp. love the first part, when it does his monologue on "anthropologists have always had a hard time with football." THIS anthropologist sure doesn't! ;-) Moon, you are so right. I think FP brings out my maternal side, in that I really sympathize with Paul as a lost, lonely boy, trying to find some sense of love and belonging just as his personal life came crashing down around him. The characters DID need a lot more development. But I will tell you this though, NH did manage to stay true to the psychology of sport obsession in the screenplay. Good god, it's scary. I watched part of it tonight BTW, and the one scene that I have personally relived over and over again was: -"It's only a game" -DON'T SAY THAT! PLEASE! That's the worst, most stupid thing anyone could say because it quite clearly isn't only a game..."

I really sympathize with Paul as a lost, lonely boy, trying to find some sense of love and belonging Sure but this man is supposed to be a TEACHER! Would you entrust the education of a child to this man? He had no interests apart from football and pop music and when put on the spot to some up with a D H Lawrence novel, could only think of Lady Chatterley's Lover. I am prepared to help Colin Firth find a sense of love and belonging anytime but as for Paul Ashworth:-))

(Allison), I am prepared to help Colin Firth find a sense of love and belonging anytime but as for Paul Ashworth:-)) LOL! Poor NH, he does need to group. Winter, if another man had said, its only a game, to Paul, he would have hit him(I am quite sure).

Correction, NH needs to grow up!

(moon) Correction, NH needs to grow up! His characters are doing just that in his subsequent books, but ever so slowly. What was Paul? 12ish. Rob (High Fidelity) is definitely teen-age, maybe around 17-18 in psychological development. Now, Will (AAB), he's a tad older. At this rate, I'll be dead and buried when NH's protagonists reach middle-age! ;-D

LOL!

My newest FP watching report: I�m falling in love with Paul A. I watched it the 3rd time today and every time I�ve found something new about that fine actor, what�s he called now. Funniest thing is that I�ve realized how much Paul actually resembles Mr. Darcy, I mean the various typical expressions in his face that can be found in Darcy�s face too......it�s so sweet. Btw, among many other moments, I like it when he�s alone at home and gets up from his bed in his underwear. Dunno why :-D

Oh my God, that wonderful grey sleepsuit....those wonderful legs..slurp...slurp...

(Elena) I�m falling in love with Paul A. Me too. Throwing all practical matters out the window, I would have run back to him too. "...and I don't know where he can be, my baby, but I'm gonna find him."

Elena) I�m falling in love with Paul A. Don't. He's bad news. Better stick with Joe Prince:-) As Winter says;"You could be sure he'd be there in the morning". Paul would be off to an Arsenal game with the boys ...and after that the pub:-)

Evelyn: Don't. He's bad news. Better stick with Joe Prince:-) As Winter says;"You could be sure he'd be there in the morning". good god! I said that a year ago, I think. And you remember that? But, sisters... It's the masochist/dysfunctional girlfriend in me. I went out with a Paul Ashworth for 6 years. I know, I know, women deserve better (I deserve better!), but a lot of us end up cringing when a Joe Prince actually does come into our lives...we think, "what am I doing with this guy?! He's too nice!" The football fanatic has become, sickly enough, the late 20th century version of the dark, brooding love-interest.

(winter)a lot of us end up cringing when a Joe Prince actually does come into our lives...we think, "what am I doing with this guy?! He's too nice!" After we have been hurt enough times, we grow up...I hope!

Are we still on Tumbledown? During our stay in London we were able to put our hands on a very interesting book �The British Television Drama In The 1980s" And there's a chapter by Geoffrey Reeves about �Tumbledown (Charles Wood) and The Falklands Play (Ian Curteis)". Seems to be an interesting and insightful study. I don't know wether you already know it but if Tumbledown is still our subject and if you're interested I'll post some quotes. Let me know.

Kirsten, I really think we could be on anything he has done, makes it much more interesting....if nobody hasn�t anything against it? Also, isn�t it time for us to talk about 3DOR too? I�ll try now even though I think all of this has already been said. Firstly, I�m so glad that he chose to be in 3DOR, it shows something about his intelligence again, and careful thinking. The play was an opportunity for him to show a new side of his professional skills and it was about 100% or more up to what I expected of him (although I must confess that I was a LITTLE bit afraid that the play might be terrible and Colin too!!!!). I also liked it that the play was so intimate and �small�, and that things mostly happened through words and expressions which is exactly what Colin is so good at. ....Oh god, I must stop for now, one should never try to post at work, people are running around, talking to me and peeking curiously at the screen over my shoulder!

Kirsten (gasp!!) You found that book! I'm impressed. I have information on the Curteis play and have read it. He has a long intro explaining what went on and why his teleplay got its plug pulled. Also, Wood's intro to Tumbledown mentions Curteis' big broughaha and tries to disassociate their work from his. Where shall we talk about 3DOR? Here or 118?

3DOR - no complain from my side. (Karen if you'Re interested in a copie of that article I may send it to you by mail or fax if possible (cheaper). Please let me know) (Karen) Where shall we talk about 3DOR? Here or 118? I'd prefer to discuss it here. It's easier to follow if the discussion isn't muddled up with other things. What do you think? But first I have to work on the pics to be put up.

Here would be fine, I think. Same reasons as Kirsten.

(Winter).The football fanatic has become, sickly enough, the late 20th century version of the dark,brooding love-interest. God forbid.It's a long life girls...... **** Winter....don't you remember ranking "3 characters of CF that we liked most and why" (your idea!during the dearth of news last spring!) And you mentioned that about Joe Prince.V. insightful. Obviously , it impressed me..re: your maturity....don't tell me I was wrong!! **** 3 DOR discussion here, please.But give us a little lead time to read it. Elena...please continue with 3 DOR when we get to discuss it. Is this the first American play you have seen?I know some people were apprehensive about understanding an American accent. **** But I'm not finished with T.I would like to hear Kirsten's comments from the book, please.

(Evelyn) understanding an American accent I thought I wouldn�t understand the American accent in 3DOR but the accent was not that American, was it? Maybe the director should have let the actors articulate the way they do normally, because trying to imitate an accent usually fails more or less. Am I wrong if I remember that Colin�s first line �Meanwhile, back in the city....two nights of insomnia� was his only clearly American accented bit?! Not that I�m an expert in English accents, you guys know this so much better. AND I love his British articulation. I do not know why it sounds so sexy to me, a funny thing really that an accent can be erotic.....my god, I think I�ll have to watch FP for the fourth time..... **** Evelyn, just to make sure, did you receive that email of mine on Monday? I got the impression yesterday in Chat that you didn�t.

(Elena)but the accent was not that American, was it? IMO he did....trans-Atlantic (generic American). I do agree that his voice is showcased better with a British accent. I think the British vowels resonate better. But we better ask our resident linguist, Winter. *** No, I did not receive an email from you this week :-(

Hi all...just stopping by before I get down to grading final exams this weekend (and meeting up with Ben and Jana2 for lunch on Saturday!) Evelyn--you're right, I did say that about Joe Prince. I was just in awe that you've managed to remember something I posted so long ago. But I have terrible memory to begin with...:-) re Accents: I don't play any musical instruments, nor am I talented in any sports, but I have been known to have an ear for tracing accents (scared the bejezus out of a lady at a sandwich shop in Nevada when I asked her if she was from Minnesota). Anyone have a soundbite from his performance? Many Brit actors tend to be inconsistent with vowel enunciation-- particularly the O's as in "sorry" and A's as in "bland." I wonder if he ever tried speaking to his son in more of an American (Californian) accent, t practice. Hopefully not, we wouldn't want ODB's language peppered with "like" or even worse, "dude!" On an aside-- I always wondered how much Jennifer Ehle had to work on changing her American accent to Brit. She spent most of her life in the States, and during the formative years, you're more likely to pick up the accent you are more exposed to.

( Winter) On an aside-- I always wondered how much Jennifer Ehle had to work on changing her American accent to Brit. She spent most of her life in the States, and during the formative years, you're more likely to pick up the accent you are more exposed to. Interesting comment esp since I am sending you a tape of a TV interview she gave in UK last month on "This Morning; the presenter asked her the same question. She said that she can go from one accent to the other easily.Actually she went to school in UK also and her mum is British, as you know.So was her nanny. British accent is her natural one, apparently. (Best southern accent I ever heard was by her mom in "Street Car..."It must be a family trait.) BTW did you know that Mel Gibson was b. in Poughkeepsie, NY...lived there till he was 12 and then moved to Australia.And Bob Hope was b. and raised in England!!

Since Moon provided that lovely quote from the play, let's start talking about the play. Even though not everyone has seen it, many more have the script in their hot little hands and have read it. So here goes: Ned is the most important character in the play. His mood, his personality, and his thoughts set everything in motion and color our thinking about all the other characters. How would you describe his character? Is he brilliant? Is he really lonely? Is is truly a misfit? What IS Ned's problem?

(Excuse me....are we putting Tumbledown to bed? Before Kirsten has told us about the comments in the book she bought in London? Was it "Television Films of the 1980s"?) Perhaps she can just jump in when she surfaces. I would like to hear it. Thank you:-)

(Evelyn)are we putting Tumbledown to bed? .....Or should we have another topic in which to discuss his theater work only and leave this one to movies?? Hoping that there will be a new theater role SOON! Apart from Tumbledown which I still haven�t been able to get converted, I�m afraid I�ll have to disturb the 3DOR discussion with my FP experiences.

(Elena) I�m afraid I�ll have to disturb the 3DOR discussion with my FP experiences. You can break in anytime....Elena, this is a loose board (we are loose women!!) we like to hear comments anytime:-)

we like to hear comments anytime:-) Exactly, so if Karen wants to start 3DOR, that's okay with me too. The girl's prepared. I mean she was practically reciting the lines along with the actors. As far as Tumbledown, I know I'm still sending out tapes to people so where are you? And any other films - please, don't wait for the formal discussion to begin. Chime on in any time. I could talk about FP forever.

(Heide)As far as Tumbledown, I know I'm still sending out tapes to people so where are you? I thought that was the rule...."you get a tape...you post..." That's what you told me :-)

(Winter:) The football fanatic has become, sickly enough, the late 20th century version of the dark, brooding love-interest. Hey, I can be a football fanatic if you want me to be one. Just not Arsenal, please. Back from sunny California, which was HOT. It's grey and grinding here in Gotham (NYC). Work and rain. I miss the warmth of Santa Monica. Met up with divers Pemberlians/Droolers and fun was had. (Failed Winter's pronunciation test, however.) Sorry to post a completely irrelevant thing here but messages are arriving so thick and fast on Colin Firth 94 (or whatever we're up to by now) and posting there is like trying to cross Oxford Street at rush hour. Looking forward to seeing FP, despite the club.

And wot's wrong with Arsenal? I've seen a couple of their most recent games (on Spanish television, which makes it a bit of a chore to understand)..and they're not bad at all. But I don't know much about the game aside from basics, so you'll have to enlighten us before it's released on the big screen.

(Evelyn) (Excuse me....are we putting Tumbledown to bed? Before Kirsten has told us about the comments in the book she bought in London? Was it "Television Films of the 1980s"?) Perhaps she can just jump in when she surfaces. I would like to hear it. Evelyn, I�ll do my best to post some quotes soon, but unfortunately I�m *very* busy these days. But since I feel that the T�down discussion is dying it would perhaps do if I send the comments to you privately. So that the other discussions are not muddled up by it. Well, we�ll see, first of all I have to type it! It was "British Television Drama in the 1980s" edited by George W. Brandt.

(Kirsten) But since I feel that the T�down discussion is dying it would perhaps do if I send the comments to you privately. Please, Kirsten, not privately. I'm interested and perhaps you can rev the discussion up a bit. Surely Arsenal is better than Manchester United! At least you don't see any Gunners going round with odd assorted Spice Girls.

I happen to be fairly knowledgeable in Arsenal football. (I'm secretly in love w/ Dennis Bergkamp;)) Man U? uck! However showdown w/ Man U is inevitable;( (I secretly hate David Beckham!:))

As promised I�ve finally typed the quotes (should rather have checked my scanner to see what�s to do to scan a text - next time) . I�ve tried to keep the layout of the original text but don�t know whether I got all the HTML tags right - hope so. I typed this text very carefully and really hope that there are not too many typos or even misquotes - if so I apologies. The whole study is very interesting and it was difficult to decide which bits to quote. I hope I�ve chosen something that allows you to gain an insight into the whole story. Hope you enjoy. Quotes from �Tumbledown and The Falklands Play� by Geoffrey Reeves as published in �British Television Drama in the 1980s�, 1993. Referring to the �battle� fought prior to the transmission of Tumbledown ********************* � As the book Robert Lawrence had written with his father, When the Fighting is Over, was published the same day as Tumbledown was transmitted - 31 May 1988 - the previous week the press was filled with reviews, interviews and much comment. Lawrence told The Times on 27 may that he had decided to tell the truth about the Falklands conflict because the public had been given a sanitised version of the events. He also wanted to show how the wounded had been treated when they returned home. He said he was angry he had not been allowed to take part in a victory parade in London. The Times also interviewed his former CO, Brigadier Mike Scott, who as a Lieutenant-Colonel led the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards against Argentine troops on Mount Tumbledwon in 1982. The underlying theme of the book is that the regiment failed to look after the wounded. But I really cannot accept that. It makes me very sad to hear Robert talking like this. We did all we could for the wounded. The next day the Scots Guards held a press conference to prove the regiment had looked after its own. They had a document listing how the regiment had catered for the needs of the forty-two soldiers wounded in the assault. Corporals, lance-corporals and colour-sergeants, all with shattered limbs, were wheeled on to tell their stories of being found jobs and given loans. Journalists were busy interviewing all veterans they could trace. The Sunday Times gave the book to the Corporal who was closest to Lawrence when he was shot. He said, �It glamourizes war, makes it more dramatic than it was. He mentions things he could not possibly have seen.� It emerged on 30 May that the BBC were being asked to cut one scene from the film before it was transmitted. The scene, which occurred in the last sequence during the assault on Mt Tumbledown, showed Lawrence passing a fellow officer: in the published script PETER FYSHE is sitting behind a rock, shivering, looking incredebly young. He hisses at ROBERT as he goes past: �Don�t go on, Robert. It�s awful. Don�t let them make you. Shoot anyone who tries to make you ...� ROBERT glares at PETER FYSHE, who shuts up. ROBERT and his platoon go on. In the next scene the sergeant explains that Mr Fyshe back, sorr, got caught in the back-blast of an 84-mm. Soon be out of it. He�ll be fine. The same day the BBC issued a statement: �Our position is that Tumbledown is a play which speaks for itself. We have never suggested that it is a documentary or a drama-documentary.� The next day it was reported that lawyers acting for Captain James Stuart, 24, had taken last-ditch action on the day of transmission to have the scene removed. In the morning, Captain Stuart couldn�t comment. �I have to have someone from the Ministry of Defence here at my side before I can say anything�, he told the reporters, but by the afternoon, presumably with a little help from the Ministry, he issued a statement: I also fought on Tumbledown with many brave guardsmen in my platoon, as we achieved our objectives at the end of a very long and very bitterly fought battle. At no time on Tumbledown, nor at any stage of the Falklands campaign did I say to Robert Lawrence that we should not go on or that he should shoot anyone who tried to stop him going back. The BBC said it was decided to remove the scene �on compassionate grounds� after representations had been made. (Ten days later Lawrence and Stuart �settled their differences on honourable terms�: the 100-word reference to abandoning the assault would be removed from further editions of the best-selling book.) So, minus twelve seconds and almost four years after the inception, Tumbledown was finally shown. Its audience was estimated at 10.55 million, being tenth in the week�s ratings, significantly higher than the norm for serious drama. (Alan Bennett�s Talking Heads had 4 million in the same slot.)� ***************** More to come.

More quotes from �Tumbledown and The Falklands Play� by Geoffrey Reeves as published in �British Television Drama in the 1980s�, 1993. Some reactions after the first transmission of Tumbledwon: ********************* �Although Today found a guardsman who said Robert Lawrence was a �good bloke�, other journalists talked to the anaesthetist who cared for Lawrence in the field: he said the film was wrong - �Five times over the top�, and the Drill Sergeant who pushed Lawrence�s wheelchair to St Paul�s also said the film was wrong; Lawrence had been in the front row of the transept aisle.� [...] �Physiotherapists from St Thomas�s Hospital were reported as having written directly to Richard Eyre demanding an apology for being portrayed as patronising, abusive, negligent and even sadistic. The times had the thunderers of the old brigade. General Sir John Hackett, writing from the Cavalry & Guards Club: A signal disservice is being done to the Scots Guards, one of the British Army�s most distinguished regiments, outstanding in performance on the battle field, and, as is common in great fighting regiments, well known for its concern over the well-being of all members of the regimental family. It has been attacked by an ex-officer badly wounded in the Falklands in writings and public utterances which have saddened many by their insensitivity, arrogance and inaccuracy. This is a good young man gone sour ... Not a few would have been grateful for a small fraction of the 130,000 pounds ... Robert Lawrence was handed out from the charity to salve his wounds. And distraught mothers: Mrs Rosemary Calder-Smith wrote to The Times: As the true-life mother of �Sophie� portrayed in last night�s film of Tumbledown I am saddened and disappointed at the exploitation of unquestioned bravery - exploitation solely for the financial benefit of Robert Lawrence himself. Nothing was re-enacted or mentioned of the unfailing support and encouragement which my daughter gave to him during his first months home from the Falklands and which undoubtedly gave him the will and the determination to live and to make the amazing recov ry he has since made. The pressures on her were enormous and she spent every possible moment of every day a his bedside. She was portrayed as nothing more than a feelingless sex kitten ... I take great exception to this, having seen at first hand the constant support she gave Robert whilst under a terrible strain in her own life ... I suggest that the powers that be in future look deeper into the background of potential officers in the Brigade of Guards before recruiting. The Sunday Express was soon onto her daughter, Victoria Calder-Smith, reporting she was outraged at the way I was represented as an uncaring loose woman ... A lot of it was pure invention. I was in bed with Robert as they showed in the play. But they really spiced up the dialogue. When some weeks later Richard Brooke revealed that Miss Calder-Smith had been shown the script by Robert Lawrence before transmission and had approved it, her mother merely said, �As far as I�m concerned the matter is over.� In July The Times reported a BBC crackdown on TV drama that mixes fact and fiction. Marmaduke Hussey, said to have been �deeply affected� by Ms Calder-Smith�s letter, has signalled his concern at the hurt and suffering which can be caused to friends and relatives of people portrayed in such programmes, known as faction. Tumbledwon raised issues about drama based on real life which the BBC will have to consider seriously.� *********************** More to come.

More quotes from �Tumbledown and The Falklands Play� by Geoffrey Reeves as published in �British Television Drama in the 1980s�, 1993. Something about the film itself: **************** � Of the published screenplay, 20 per cent wasn�t filmed. One sequence on board the Queen Elizabeth II as the regiment sailed to the Falklands was cut on grounds of costs. Others, mainly towards the end, appear to have gone on grounds of length or repetition. A speech about the bureaucratic hurdles that had to be overcome so he could drive again was cut. Sally, a therapist who tried to get him to do woodwork, also went (she got the same treatment as the others - �You silly bitch� - �You simpering wet ow!�), as did the hospital visit of a beautiful Swedish girl who brings him pornographic magazines and slides her hand under the coverlet. This fragmented structure enables Wood to gain sympathy for the most unsympathetic of heroes by presenting only the minimum of the pre-battle gung-ho warrior and keeping the most Ramboesque image for the end. First we are confronted with the hard-done-by victim of mindless bureaucracy and inefficiency, guaranteed to get a response from anyone who has had any dealings with an NHS Hospital or Social Security office in Thatcherie Britain. It enables him to have the discussion about the emotional problem of stabbing a man to death before we are shown the butchery. Given the tenacious qualities of Robert Lawrence we would clearly have viewed the ordeal differently had the first 20 minutes simply shown the ruthless young warrior going about his trade with such obvious enjoyment. It also constantly juxtaposes the physically whole body of the youth who went to war with the appalling disablement that followed. The strength and weakness of Tumbledown lie in the character of the protagonist: energetic he may be, but attractive or admirable he is not. The anger which is constantly expressed in Colin Firth�s extraordinary performance may be quite justified but it hardly makes for complexity: the action of the film forces us to consider the nature of heroism. It doesn�t come from the hero itself, comfortable with military clich�s and Sloany friends. The successful soldier in this film is represented as a unthinking trained killer with surface manners and no emotional maturity. What he has to do he clearly does well, and Wood rightly poses the question about the relationship to society of the men who are paid to protect it and yet are in some ways totally alienated from it by their disruptive behaviour; but does this make for a dramatically complex hero? This man never comes to terms with the fact that he lost almost half his brain for nothing. [...] What is interesting is what his story throws up about the society in which he lives. Here Wood is masterly. Being anti-war but pro-soldier enables him to write short but sharp scenes from the inside, with many telling details. The quality of the writings gives actors superb opportunities, and under Richard Eyre�s direction they are all taken. It is surprising just how little screen time it takes for the cameos to bite. As the parents, David Calder and Barbara Leigh-Hunt reign supreme; they are also g ven the best single shot of the film: the long walk into camera as they emerge from the first meeting with their wounded son, down a covered corridor between the blocks of the hospital. He is fighting back his tears. She is very quiet. Indeed, it is one of he few shots which has any visual distinction to it at all, where what happens in the frame actually has some correlation with the emotional movements inside the characters. For the rest it is a case of straightforward television shooting of talking hea s: except for what appears to be a striving towards the mythic. There are a couple of shots of Lawrence sitting on the prow of a ship, shot in black and white and looking like the poster for a British 1950s film about the Second World War. These shots relate directly to what Lawrence is thinking (the first comes while he performs the ceremonial duties at the Tower) and appear to express his wish fulfilment: Lawrence as a Boy�s Own Paper hero of the 1930s. There is another shot, interposed seven times during the second hour of the film, of a back-lit soldier, wear ng his framed back-pack and carrying a rifle, moving slowly as a guitar strums. Unrelated to the visual design of the rest of the film, it seems like a monster cut adrift from arctic lands. The monolithic rhythm contrasts with Lawrence�s relentless energy so it appears as an author�s comment on his subject: but signifying what?� [...] �Of course, by using Lawrence Charles Wood attracted a far greater audience for his work than if it had been a totally fictional piece bursting on an unsuspecting viewing public. By this device he entered the market-place and so got much greater hearing for his work. [...] Unfortunately, as a result, Wood condemned his work to be seen in a highly charged and politicised atmosphere in which many of the onlookers were able comfortably to keep hold of their prejudices. By keeping the names, by appearing to d al with the facts, he allowed people to discredit the work. Some of the facts were �wrong� so the whole thing could be discounted.� ****************************** That�s it for the moment.

Well, and the cream topping at the end. That's the picture accompanying the text. Lieutenant Robert Lawrence (L) getting to know Colin Firth who is to playhim in the quasi-documentaryrecreationof an aspect of the Falklands campaign: Charles Wood's Tumbledwon. BBC 1988 I'm sorry for the quality, I couldn't manage to get it better.

Oops, seems that I'm getting tired, forgot some blanks, sorry. But at least it all worked out as planed.

Although I LOVE to watch Colin as Paul A (because I love to watch him as anything it seems), I don�t think the role is exactly right for him. He lacks the something that you need to be a really plausible �lad�, he just is not one, he looks far too sensitive and intelligent for that. I think that�s a problem in the movie actually, he simply doesn�t look like a football fanatic to me! And he swears (bollocks, fuck etc.) like someone who doesn�t normally use those words.

Kirsten, thanks for posting all of the above. The military certainly felt a strong need to defend their position. I don't doubt that Lawrence was an angry young man and what happened to him colored his perception of the events but it is his perception. I think this is what he thinks he saw and his version is never going to agree with what the army says they did. Did he exaggerate events? Who knows but I would say he himself is not shown in a very complimentary manner either. I think Lawrence's basic message in this film is that the army and civilians were not prepared for the brutality of this dirty little war. I don't think he was focusing on cowardice by other officers or unfaithfulness by a selfish girlfriend - they're just parts to a whole. An interesting quote: Of course, by using Lawrence Charles Wood attracted a far greater audience for his work than if it had been a totally fictional piece bursting on an unsuspecting viewing public So fiction works better than faction. Thanks for giving us a picture too, Kirsten. (Elena on FP): He lacks the something that you need to be a really plausible �lad�, he just is not one, he looks far too sensitive and intelligent I agree he looks sensitive and intelligent (sigh) but I think the point that Nick Hornby makes, at least in his book, is that you could be sensitive and intelligent and yet still have this unending obsession. Paul's not a football hooligan though he may be a yob (whatever the hell that is). As for the swearing, to me it came so naturally it barely registered.

This man never comes to terms with the fact that he lost almost half his brain for nothing. Perhaps in the film...but in the book he does. Thanks Kirsten, for giving us this additional source of background. And for that pic that I have never seen. ****** (Heide)....the army and civilians were not prepared for the brutality of this dirty little war. Is anyone ever prepared for the eventualities of a war....are we prepared for the current potential explosion in E. Europe?Perhaps as we speak?

to UK fans, not sure if this is the right place to post this but Nick Hornby is in Brighton on Sunday, th 28th, in the Churchill Square Shopping Centre, book-signing Also an I add my thanks Kirsten for th above information and picture.

Ann, what book is he signing for? Does he have a new book out?

Laura, I am afraid I don't know to both questions, just saw a notice advertising him being at this particular store on Sunday, but will try to find out.

(Evelyn)are we prepared for the current potential explosion in E. Europe?Perhaps as we speak? Please leave East Europe out of it. The Balkans are towards the east of *South Europe*.

(Evelyn)are we prepared for the current potential explosion in E. Europe?Perhaps as we speak? The Balkans are towards the east of *South Europe*, if you please.

And bomb this idiotic program as well!

And the UK is not part of Europe as the English put it:)

Steering us back to less contentious ground, Elena, re. the swearing in FP. I saw NH in a television interview, and he mentioned the scene in FP where Paul/Colin opens the window and yells "f*** off" and said that CF was ill-at-ease about doing it. Perhaps it doesn't come naturally to him! I do like CF as Paul, but I also agree with a comment that Allison (I think) made way, way back, that CF is perhaps better suited to roles with some gravitas. However I find him equally convincing in both kinds of roles. Kirsten, thanks for all the Tumbedown info.

And the UK is not part of Europe as the English put it:) The Balkans are towards the east of *South Europe*, if you please. Please leave East Europe out of it. The Balkans are towards the east of *South Europe What is this? "Trash Evelyn Day"? Can't I make a comment on this topic? Even if I have the wrong geographical terms? Sheeeesh!. (BTW Laura, did you receive the 3 DOR program I sent you)

BTW, the point behind the NH anecdote above, was that apparently a group of rather elderly P&P fans arrived at the FP shoot looking for Mr Darcy and were told by crew members that if they waited a while, Mr Darcy would look out of the window and speak to them! I reckon Colin must have lost a few fans! :-)

LMAO! (Even if I have heard that one before... Btw, I don't think Colin is necessarily averse to swearing - actors do it like troopers, believe me - but he certainly has a sense of the right time and place among other things, methinks.)

Bethan, LOL! Arami, to my southern european mind, the Balkans are more eastern than southern europe...even middle eastern...

(Bethan)NH...mentioned the scene in FP where Paul/Colin opens the window and yells "f*** off" and said that CF was ill-at-ease about doing it. Bethan, that was so sweet!! I loved it. I KNEW he�s not the swearing type or else he�d say those words in FP in a quite different way, whatever the situation. Believe me, I know, I swear like a trooper myself and that�s why I�m very attracted to men who don�t and can�t do it plausibly! Btw I don�t think it�s something that comes with your job, it�s a personality thing. (Allison)He�s better suited to roles with some gravitas EXactly. I�m desperately looking forward to one for a change.

(Allison)He�s better suited to roles with some gravitas EXactly. I�m desperately looking forward to one for a change. A shame he's not doing Syd.Carton, which is melodrama, but at least with some gravitas thrown in. Elena, I'm sure the sound of troopers swearing in Finnish is charming and genteel.:-). I'm not sure it's character, but it's certainly a habit that's hard to break. Going to football matches in England is not very conducive to self-reform.

(Ben) it's certainly a habit that's hard to break Voi perkele, you�re right.

Evelyn, no I have not rec'd booklet:( But I am anticipating it. Britny Spears donning her 17-year old underwear (not old underwear, her Underwear!) wasn't on the cover, was she. Oh right, that was my Rolling Stone! RE: Colin Firth feeling uncomfortable swearing. I have to disagree with Whoopi (Hollywood Squares joke for you non-Americans)on this on. He said in an interview he felt more like himself and not Mr Darcy. Don't ask me which interview its in one of them. RE: Swearing in general. Irish and British use the vulgar language like I say hello and goodbye in a day.

Laura, so far you have us (nous autres les Anglais) as Euro-hating and foul-mouthed. Is Colin, the clean-mouthed husband of an Italian, the exception that proves the rule? ;-)

(Ben)Is Colin, the clean-mouthed husband of an Italian, the exception that proves the rule? ;-) Did I say that? No, I didn't. As a rule, Brits and Irish use swear words in everyday language. As for the UK being Euro-hating, it's a well-documented fact. England, Scotland and Northern Ireland does not consider themselves as part of Europe or they would be using the infamous Euro! Do I care whether or not TDB swears? Not particularly. Do I care whether he has a clean mouth to his Italian-born wife. Again, not particularly. Am I being very sarcastic. Oh definitely!

I don't mean to say that not using the Euro is the only reason. It's well-known fact that UK is anti-Europe.

hmmmm.........

test? Yes, my dear. We cannot compete with Napolean and Hitler - these guys loved Europe so much they wanted to have the whole place to themselves. Two million Brits, dastardly Euro-sceptics that they are, died in the fields of France this century stopping these European heroes from uniting the continent. My grandfather, who lies buried in a cemetary in Bayeux, really should have known better. Seriously, though, I take issue with the view that the UK is anti-European, "well-known fact" though it may be. I might be fairly typical - v. much a European but distrustful of the EU and the Commission. I have vacationed in France, Germany and Italy umpteen times and I lived in Paris for a year. My best friends at grad. school were an Irishman and an Italian. I listen to French and German music, I read French and Russian literature. But all this has nothing, thank God, to do with the EU or the Euro.

Hey I didn't say you didn't like Europeans! I just said that UK is anti-being called Europe!

Hmmm.... are we developing an adversarial relationship? We must fix that!

Laura, NH is promoting his book "About a Boy"?

Thank you, Ann. Back to something that makes sense. Please, let's not get into this type of shit. There, I swear too.

Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry. No more self-righteous ranting, I promise. However, I cannot promise not to show off my new HTML skills.

Sorry, I broke a cardinal rule of mine and am now suffering poster's remorse. Lest anyone think I am a prude, I have no problem with a discussion on swearing. It can be a fairly effective way of getting one's point across when done with wit and skill though I myself don't get much beyond a few banal expletives bellowed from behind the safety of the steering wheel. It's gross generalizations that bother the bejesus out of me. But I should have waited 24 hours before putting fingers to the keyboard. And I probably shouldn't be posting this message either. Back to the subject at hand - Elena, did you think CF sounded forced during 3DOR when his dialogue contained a few of the more common swear words we hear daily?

(Gi) to my southern european mind, the Balkans are more eastern than southern europe...even middle eastern... To my Eastern European mind, I wasn't born anywhere near the Balkans... Judging from the map, it's definitely south-east. And having lived among the Brits for nearly half of my life, I often find them more European than some other Europeans...

(Arami) I often find them more European than some other Europeans And what the hell is European anyway. Sorry, I�m swearing again. Ben, do you happen to know any handy ways to break the habit? (Heide) did you think CF sounded forced during 3DOR �A fucking weather report�? Not really. Actually I�ve been thinking how funny it is to make guesses about an actor�s personality or his personal habits by what he does at work, he�s an ACTOR, dammit. Softness in Paul Ashworth can be intentional, just a careful construction, but at home Mr. Firth possibly swears like a trooper when he reads the morning paper, fails to attach things to the wall etc.! And remember, he claimed once that in real life he �DOESN�T SMOULDER�! That was just too devastating.

# 11 reason why Livia thinks Colin is not always wonderful: He swears too much. I wish I could add this to my original list. ;-)

Amazingly enough, my grandfather is from Montenegro and he considers it Southeastern Europe. Ah, Laura is part Serbian on my mom's side!

Elena, you ask about breaking the swearing habit.... I have learned only to curtail it in appropriate circumstances. Otherwise, I have taught myself, as if I were both Pavlov and his dog, to modify the words. Christmas! replaces Christ, as an exclamation, 'effing' stands in for f***ing, bloody I accept in myself, and wank and bollocks also slip through the net, as it were. 'For Pete's sake!', `blast' and 'hell's teeth' often come to my rescue. I'm hoping, as you can see, that quantity is no substitute for severity. Having said that, I sometimes go for it in French, the assumption being that no-one around me understands. Sometimes I am wrong.

(Laura)...he considers it Southeastern Europe Thank you, Laura, I'll take your granddad's opinion about it, he ought to know! :-) (Ben) I sometimes go for it in French, the assumption being that no-one around me understands. Sometimes I am wrong. LOL! I thought I was the only one...I sometimes swear in English, or in Spanish...and do it in England or Spain <-(

(Ben)I have learned only to curtail it in appropriate circumstances. I haven't even gotten that far yet. I'm still known for blurting out expletives in playgrounds full of toddlers (by accident, of course).

(Gi) Thank you, Laura, I'll take your granddad's opinion about it, he ought to know! :-) The only problem with this is that no self-respecting Montenegrin would call himself a Serb! :)

The only problem with this is that no self-respecting Montenegrin would call himself a Serb! :) ] But, he is Serbian. I don't think that's particularly funny!

He is one or the other. There is Montenegro and there is Serbia. They were only one place when they were Yugoslavia.

He is one or the other. There is Montenegro and there is Serbia. They were only one place when they were Yugoslavia. } But that's at the root of the problem over there. People's ethnicity does not correspond to the country they are living in. Just as my relatives are ethnically Macedonian, but have the unfortunate ;-) fate to have been born in Greece. So which are they, Greek? Macedonian? Macedonian Greeks (like African Americans?)

Thank you, Ann, my great grandfather left Serbia in the late early 1900s and settled in Montenegro. Technically, my grandfather is Serbian, but lived in Montenegro until he moved to the States.

sorry, early 1900s. don't know where the late came from!

(Ann)People's ethnicity does not correspond to the country they are living in. It's interesting, this discussion we've been having. It sort of wakes a lot of people up to the fact that multiculturalism and ethnic melting pots don't apply solely to North America or Western Europe. You know the largest Japanese population residing outside of Japan is in Brazil? And they've been there for generations. Armenians all over the Middle East as well. And, I have two generations of relatives in Saudi Arabia.

(Winter)..You know the largest Japanese population residing outside of Japan is in Brazil? Witness Fujimori, the president (ex-president?) of Peru. (Not Brazil, I know, but not far) Indians in East Africa, Welsh in Argentina,...Hell, I even spent the night north of the Thames, once. [This is a real wrench - it is easier for someone from Barnes to pass through the eye of a needle, or live in New York, than to spend much time on Hampstead Heath. Don't ask me why. Anyone else?] I've a general question for the film-focussed Firthettes on this board. Do you think Your Hero is capable of playing an action hero? A comic role? An extrovert? How do you think he could best be stretched (stop tittering and keep your answers clean)?

(Ben)How do you think he could best be stretched (stop tittering and keep your answers clean)? Damn! For split sec, I thought I could get away with something smart... Alright, alright...Spiderman and Superman are both in the pre-filming stages. Nicholas Cage has already been cast as Superman, though Spiderman is still up for grabs. I don't want ODB in an action role, that's the problem. After seeing Jeremy Northam in "Mimic" (action/sci-fi), my love for him has gradually been waning. Oooohhh....but I wouldn't mind seeing CF in the Mission:Impossible sequel (the first, w/ Tom Cruise, is a guilty pleasure).

Argentina has a very big Jewish Population as brother-in-law is Jewish and from Argentina.

Let's not confuse ethnicity with religion. Your grandfather being a Serb, who lived in Montenegro is of course possible and likely. He would have been an ethnic minority there, just as the Serbians are an ethnic minority in Kosovo. Unfortunately, in that part of the world, they just can't stop fighting about these things.

Ah, Laura, if I have a t-shirt made up for your next visit saying "Erin Go Dubrovnik" will you wear it at Fado's? ;-)

I don't want ODB in an action role, that's the problem.(Winter) Ditto. I'd hate to think of him enhancing his naturally athletic build by obsessive pec-building workouts in the gym....and he does have a slight tendency to trip over things!! Also, on the few occasions when he hits anyone onscreen, I've noticed that he always rubs his knuckles (in "real life", hitting hurts the hitter and the hittee). Now Bruce Willis never does that! Just can't imagine CF bursting forth, all barrels blazing... The downside is that for male actors, most roles on offer seem to be action movies!

(Ben)Do you think Your Hero is capable of playing an action hero? A comic role? An extrovert? How do you think he could best be stretched? I think he could play anything, really, he may not officially bea Method actor but he creates an empathy with his characters and is credible in anything he does. And since action heroes don't do their own stunts, he'd be alright :-)

He would be a great swashbuckler, Errol Flynn move over! Perhaps a re-make of my fav. comedy Bringing Up Baby, the Cary Grant role is perfect. Still, I would love to see him in more period pieces...I seek him here, I seek him there, frankly, I'd seek him anywhere. ;-)

he may not officially be a Method actor And whence does this information come, pray tell?

(Bethan)....re; Action roles....and he does have a slight tendency to trip over things!! LOL, Bethan. In 3 DOR I held my breath as he ran up the stairs!!! Only once did he mess up the rug and he went back and smoothed it out. But the best part was in the matinee when the stupid faucet top fell off and the water wouldn't stop running. He tried to turn it off with a blue cloth..finally went around and picked up the top from the floor and casually put it back...never missing a beat of the dialog.What a pro!!And I almost had an anxiety attack.

Ah, Laura, if I have a t-shirt made up for your next visit saying "Erin Go Dubrovnik" will you wear it at Fado's? ;-) But will anyone get it? I think it's hysterical! Yeah, I'll wear it.

Not that I'm that much of a grammar nazi, but shouldn't it me Dubrovnik Go Bragh? Isn't Erin Ireland? Just a warning, Laura. Some time ago, on these boards, in the winter of Firthette discontent, there was an ongoing spat about how ambitious on someone else's behalf it is decent to be. Some thought YDB too retiring. Without wishing to rekindle the argument, I will say that if Firth were substituted for Hugh Grant in any film role, the chances for all English actors in H-Wood would improve. Anyway, that unfortunate episode is long past, made glorious summer by Three Days of Rain.

(Evelyn)In 3 DOR I held my breath as he ran up the stairs!!! Oh yes, now that you mention it I realize that so did I! He did it in such a careless way, I can�t quite describe it. With big movements, without looking down to make sure he�s stepping where he should..... And the faucet top, he obviously used too much force with it. When it flew from his hand behind the table with a bang I really thought that a catastrophe was happening. But it�s possible that it wasn�t exactly a surprise for him, he handled the situation with such an amazing peace of mind, not looking baffled at all after it, was he. Maybe things like this happen to him every day and he�s used to fixing them!!

And didn�t he break his nose during the filming of P&P in a water tank or something?? Btw, in my Donmar pics he seems to have a bruise in his forehead exactly below the curl. It is not hair or a shadow, I�m sure of it. But still I�d like to see him in an action role, to be honest. Something very physical!Yes!

(Winter)I don't want ODB in an action role, that's the problem.(Winter) (Bethan) Ditto. I'd hate to think of him enhancing his naturally athletic build by obsessive pec-building workouts in the gym.. Not that I think this role is going anywhere but I'd classify Marked Man as an action role. There is such a thing as a "thinking man's" (or should I say woman's) action hero. Not that I wouldn't mind a peek at a washboard stomach but I don't think that's likely to happen. (Gi) I think he could play anything, really Absolutely agree. (Elena) Something very physical!Yes! Yes! Yes!! (Moon) Perhaps a re-make of my fav. comedy Bringing Up Baby, the Cary Grant role is perfect I can see him as the Cary Grant of the new Millenium.. ;-) Love to see him do his role in The Philadelphia Story too. (Ben) I will say that if Firth were substituted for Hugh Grant in any film role, the chances for all English actors in H-Wood would improve. I think that's the nicest thing you've ever said about our boy and I will admit you have been very kind. I agree wholeheartedly except for that excreble film (my memory blessedly has erased the name) with Julianne Moore about having a baby.

(Bethan) Ditto. I'd hate to think of him enhancing his naturally athletic build by obsessive pec-building workouts in the gym.. Sometimes the part calls for it though. Look at frail little Edward Norton. He bulked up and got an AA nomination for American History X and now is back to his slender little self. (Heide) There is such a thing as a "thinking man's" (or should I say woman's) action hero I agree. Still think CF would be great in espionage/thriller types (old LeCarre, Ludlum, etc.), but not the current incarnation of Mission Impossible. (Heide) I agree wholeheartedly except for that excreble film (my memory blessedly has erased the name) with Julianne Moore about having a baby. Then I won't restain it! ;-) Saw some trailers for Notting Hill; it looked cute. Very insiderish about the effects of celebrity. Shame that they had to put HG in it; hasn't Hollywood a clue that we don't want to see HG anymore!

I'm not really all that eager to see ODB accompanying numerous explosions, but a certain level of THE RIGHT action (i.e. horse-riding, fencing, swimming, etc would be acceptable. I'd love to see him in a combination action/satire!! (Just short of slapstick, of course!) Running around or crawling through the mud seems equally within his reach. Speaking of "reach" (Now don't laugh!) I read this neat (**shudder**) romance (regency-type) that involved the wounded in the Napoleonic wars and a lady's newly-found involvement with them. The hero is one of them. I read the book several times and could see CF in the title role more and more each time...with a little good screen adaptation I think it would make a marvelous vehicle for ODB...and don't groan unless you've read the book first...With this Ring by Carla Kelly. Oh, **SIGH**!

I agree wholeheartedly except for that excreble film (my memory blessedly has erased the name) with Julianne Moore about having a baby. Dreadful (nameless) film...I had to switch off because I was embarrassed. HG does all Englishmen a major disservice, with his "oh golly gosh" eyelash fluttering pseudo-diffidence. But, doesn't Notting Hill come out at about the same time as MLSF? I have a horrid feeling that the Englishman you're going to see on all your talk shows and adorning the front covers of movie mags will not be ODB! I thought that American women were supposed to love HG? Y-u-uch!

I've got it!! Opened the TV guide and "Sweet Bird of Youth" popped out at me. Early Paul Newman movies from the late 1950s to mid-1960s (pre-Cool Hand Luke). Colin would be great in those movies. Here are some: Torn Curtain and The Prize fit in with my espionage/thriller genre; From the Terrace; the Young Philadelphians; The Long, Hot Summer (Oooohhhhh my mouth waters at the idea of him playing Ben Quick); and of course Cat on a Hot Tin Roof!

(Bethan)I thought that American women were supposed to love HG? Get otta' here...who said.? HG a hunk....?"I would just as soon call his girlfriend a nun"!! He is popular because he is so ridiculous.People laugh **at**him. His one serious role...forget the title,.. played a doctor...anyway, it bombed.

Maybe she is a nun - that's why he had to seek assistance in Beverly Hills that night... I agree about HG. It's not so much his affected simpering that gets to me - though it does - it's simply that he can't act. I rather like the idea of CF as a spy, but he couldn't be Smiley. A Cary Grant type he could be. If only Hitch were still around.

(Karen) The Long, Hot Summer (Oooohhhhh my mouth waters at the idea of him playing Ben Quick); Yesssss.... one of my absolute favorite sexy roles. Would a Southern drawl be required? HG's charm lasts for about five minutes, then the act gets real stale. I have no idea who finds him attractive though I bet I'll hear from her real soon.

he may not officially be a Method actor (Arami)And whence does this information come, pray tell? I think I read it "somewhere", but I may be wrong. Anyway, Arami, we all seem to be ruffling your feathers these days, I don't know why, for my part it is not intended, so please take it easy, will you? :-)

Dear Gi - and all who may not actually care to remember my early days in Drool - my sole existence here is based on having my feathers ruffled! It is part of the tradition. I am the voice in the Drool wilderness... ;-) I think he is a method actor. He aims at identifying himself with the character he portrays (but only whilst he is acting, of course). He has said that it entails a lot of emotional suffering at times.

(Heide) Yesssss.... one of my absolute favorite sexy roles. Would a Southern drawl be required? Yes, but if Branagh could do it so well in The Gingerbread Man, so could Colin. How else could one make "hair" a two-syllable word (as in my favorite speech in TLHS)? ;-) You run. Run like hell. Buy a bus ticket and disappear. Change your name. Dye your hair. Get lost. Then, maybe, you'll be safe from me. Knew you'd go for sweaty, menacing and earthy, Ben Quick.

(Arami)Dear Gi - and all who may not actually care to remember my early days in Drool - my sole existence here is based on having my feathers ruffled! It is part of the tradition. Who said .."it's part of the tradition"...maybe yourtradition. All of the oldies can defend themselves v. well, but I agree with Gi... ."playing gotcha" might be fun for you...but my concern is that it puts newbies off. People should be able to give their opinions without having to document them every time.:-) Happy Palm Sunday everybody...:-)

Happy Palm Sunday everybody...:-) Oh, that's right! Thanks for reminding me, Evelyn. Gotta give mom a call...

(Evelyn)Who said .."it's part of the tradition"...maybe yourtradition. Are you trying to alienate me even more than I already am? ;-P People should be able to give their opinions without having to document them every time.:-) Even possibly mistaken opinions? People should be given a chance to modify their opinions whilst searching for the facts.

Even possibly mistaken opinions? No opinion is mistaken. One can disagree, politely.

(Arami)Evelyn)Who said .."it's part of the tradition"...maybe yourtradition. Are you trying to alienate me even more than I already am? ;-P I am sorry if you feel alienated,Arami...no one, IMO ,has gone out of the way to do so. I work v. hard to recruit new members for Spring and I don't want them to read some caustic remarks and be afraid to post. It takes a lot of courage for some newbies to post. I want Spring to be a friendly place...which it has been for a while now.

"Pray tell me.." is caustic??? And yes, opinions can be mistaken. Your opinion of me is completely off course. I am a sarky court jester. You are prigs. I am not mistaken - it's just my opinion and I am entitled to it - by your own decree. ;-DDD

Aw,C'mon Arami...get off it.

Isn't this Topic 98? Film Discussions? Or did I wander onto the Jerry Springer Show? ;-) Looks to me like we need a film to dissect instead of each other? Are we done with Tumbledown? Does anyone want to start Three Days of Rain while it is still reasonably fresh in our minds? Other ideas?

Before Ben, our grammar nazi, jumps in, the fourth question mark was a typing mistake. ;-)

Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry!

(Karen)I wander onto the Jerry Springer Show? ;-) (Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry! In my opinion, I prefer Oprah...more class:-)

Jerry's final thought: Coooool it, willya!? ;-)

Spoilsports..... ;-P

I've been offline several weeks. I come here ot find some serious dicussion on Tumbledown and instead find brawls breaking out. Ouch! Will a new CF role be picked soon for discussion? I vote for Apartment Zero. It's one I actually have.

(Sue)I vote for Apartment Zero. It's one I actually have. That's one I'd be willing to discuss too. Slightly OT, but the first time I saw Apartment Zero was in a hotel room, on a teeny, tiny island north of Borneo, about two years ago. Couldn't flippin' believe I'd be watching a CF movie in, what seemed like, the remotest place in the world!

What about discussing 3DOR? Many have seen it and others have read the script. There is so much to talk about, afterwards, I would love to do Apt. 0, one of my all time fav. CF films.

Spring Pledge Drive Terry will gratefully accept any small donation you can make to help keep the Spring out of the hole. No obligations, of course, but if you're able to help out, a check can be made out to The Spring and mailed to: The Spring Rt.2 Box 56r Cedar Creek, TX 78612 I will post this at the other topics, so bear with the repetitions.

What, did this board dry up? I've been lurking for a few days, waiting for the decision on the next project for discussion. Will it be 3DOR? AZ? How about ATA?

OK, I want to say something about AZ. Saw it last night. Interesting! The movie truly is weird and quite disgusting, and the end of it.....well, I�ve seen better ones! A Psycho allusion. The attempts of twisted humour in the last part of the film were terrible and I felt that the movie started to lose its credibility badly at some point. But mostly I found it pretty good, very good at times, I mean that ominous quietness, long takes, effective close-ups to faces, intensive contact between actors, the surrealism. What was very interesting was to see Colin�s face that young. In AZ he looks so very very young, smooth faced, unbelievably innocent. I�ll never forget his boyish face and those deep bright eyes when Adrian comforts Jack in his agony. I think Colin is brilliant as Adrian and seems to fit perfectly into the nervous, vulnerable role. He keeps his face pretty expressionless and still it says so much. Well, AZ made me wish (again!) that he could get roles in better movies than SiL, where he could really put his talent to use in all its subtlety. Please, I�d like to hear what other people thought about Apartment Zero. Comments, anyone?

Btw isn�t it strange and miraculous that the same actor who did the touching role as Adrian was Darcy too?? And that stocky Wessex! And what�s more, Walker/Ned. I could almost say that it couldn�t be. Which reminds me, I�d like to know what Colin does to his weight when he needs to. He obviously weighed much more as Wessex than he did in Donmar as the lean Walker. Or maybe it�s just the costume and hairdo & makeup that makes an actor look so different every time.

AZ is a quirky film..got a lot of good reviews but not from me when I first saw it. It has grown on me a lot. Since I've given it more of a chance, I've always found something new in the dialog or in his expression that I hadn't seen before. Yes, what a chameleon and not just in his appearance. What did he do to his voice?

(Elena) I felt that the movie started to lose its credibility badly at some point Yeah, I started losing patience when they cut up the girl and stuffed her into the trunk. But CF is marvelous. "Mother!"

(Elena)I�d like to know what Colin does to his weight when he needs to Well, think of the topmodels: beautiful on television, horribly thin in real life. Film adds a couple of kilos to you.

(Eileen)Yeah, I started losing patience when they cut up the girl Exactly, the chiropractical humour by the trunk was the last straw, after that the movie can�t be taken seriously for a second. The director possibly meant it to be a part of the surrealism but I don�t think it worked, rather it�s a mistake and ruins everything after it. Just like the scene where the transvestite is revealed to be a guy, it�s ridiculously out of place. But Adrian�s role was like made for Colin.

I also thought things were getting out of hand when Adrian fell over the balcony. I thought he was dead--how he survived that far a fall with just a gash on his head and no broken bones is beyond me. That came before the cut up girl, right? It was funny how the neighbors hung over the railing and gaped at him. What an odd bunch (I suppose that was the point).

OK, then I guess it's official: We are discussing Apartment Zero. That's good, now I'm going to HAVE to rewatch it.

then I guess it's official: We are discussing Apartment Zero. That's good, now I'm going to HAVE to rewatch it. Me too. But please let's not forget 3 DOR. I want to do that one sometime...before we forget it...no film to go back to, you know. (Oh why didn't we rent a camcord in London!!!)

Well, should we set up a new topic dedicated to 3DoR?

Hmmm.... we must all be studying Apartment Zero. I mean to do it myself one of these days. In the meantime, by all means discuss Three Days of Rain here. Or Fever Pitch or The Advocate or whatever. No reason why we can't keep concurrent discussions going. Thinking of Apartment Zero, how many other films has Colin made in which he has a mother fixation? Back to the VCR for me.

I think by today/tomorrow (depending on time zone) everyone will be back in town. What will our next discussion be? Three Days of Rain or Apartment Zero There was interest in both, even to the point of setting up a new topic. Let's hear from those who will be participating or who "think" they might participate! ;-)

I think it would be nice to do 3DOR since it is still fresh in so many minds. ;-) I did not see the play but have read the script and would enjoy disecting it.

I would participate in an Apartment Zero discussion. I was not lucky enough to see 3DOR nor have I read the screenplay, but would enjoy reading the discussion on it. I think you should discuss it before everyone forgets all the little things in the play.

My vote for 3DoR for the simple reason I haven't seen Apartment 0... Selfish, but I'd like to be able to contribute to the discussion (have hardly been able to do so in this topic to date) :-) But will lurk (!) happily if you decide otherwise ;-)

Actually, I'm so pressed for time I probably should vote for Apt 0!

Agree with all who would rather discuss 3DOR. AZ's a film so that can wait.

(Sue)I think you should discuss it before everyone forgets all the little things in the play. I agree with Sue. We can rewind and check things in video. Nothing brings back a memory. Get to work, you lucky ladies and we will bask again in your light.

The tally after ONE (1) day of voting: With results in from just 5 precincts, 3DOR should be discussed while we all remember it. The polls have not closed. ;-)

If you seriously want to discuss 3DoR and haven't read the play yet, just e-mail me and I can e-mail the entire script to you

I vote for 3 DOR...before I forget parts of it too. And Karen...let's invite the Springfolks to join us since a lot of them attended the 2nd weekend. **** BTW Karen the MLSF page is terrific....I am looking forward to seeing it...even though the book was insipid.But to see this man in any period film is a treat. He wears clothes so well...

Please take advantage of KJ's offer and you'll be able to join in (that is, IF we discuss 3DOR). You can ask questions, like "how did Colin do such and such?" (Evelyn) But to see this man in any period film is a treat. Or: But to see this man in any film is a treat. Period!! He wears clothes so well... Or: He wears no clothes so well... ;-)

I�ve suggested this once before and I�m doing it again: why don�t we send a NEW list of questions to Colin, about 3DOR and maybe his other "recent" projects, SiL for instance. He didn�t answer the previous question list but I don�t see why we couldn�t try again! I remember the questions in the other list were pretty personal ones, now we should stick stricktly to professional things. The press hasn�t interviewed him about the making of 3DOR and how he and the play got together etc. but he COULD be willing to answer some good questions about it directly to his fans....especially after seeing what a big bunch of his fans found their way to Donmar because of the Internet. And if he won�t answer, we can send him another list about MLSF and later about Don Quick, and so on! Sooner of later he�ll react.(?)

Elena, I agree with you about the question idea. However, as I mentioned over on #118, I think questions would work better in an online chat, like the ones on chat.yahoo.com and AOL. And I don't think it's such a far-fetched idea that Colin would (will) agree to do such a chat this summer. He's got 2 movies coming out in the U.S. quite close to one another -- movies that *he* will be responsible for promoting, since (should be blare of trumpets here) *he* is the lead:-) And online chats are fairly painle s compared with other forms of promo -- heck, he could do it from the desktop PC in Will's bedroom;-)

(SusanMC).....Re;CF logging on....he could do it from the desktop PC in Will's bedroom;-) Or from his agent's office. ICM is hooked up to the Internet. That's where JE logs on to her website. (According to her agent's PA)

(Susan) And I don't think it's such a far-fetched idea that Colin would (will) agree to do such a chat this summer. The chat idea is great and what fun it would be Susan but somehow I find it hard to believe that Colin would do it! This is just my personal instinct and I hope to be proved wrong....and the chat possibility of course must be tried out. Even though he didn�t answer to the other question list I still feel that the traditional method is the best way to approach him (in just about everything)!!

Pre-Donmar, I wouldn't have given Colin's participation in an on-line chat a chance (due to my hunch that he's not into computers and, most especially, that infamous 'internet' comment). But post-Donmar...a big chunk of his fans in attendance were from spring, FoF or RoP. I would think the other groups told him, as did Gi and others from our group, about their involvement in the internet. Winter told him at the LA SiL premiere. He's got to know by now that's where alot of his fans are, so IMO it's re sonable to think he'd do it given the appropriate technical support (if they had someone typing for Nick Hornby, who surely knows his way around a keyboard, then this won't be a problem). But we need a publicist to contact--I can't recall our discussion from January. Does he have one or not?

Eileen, I agree -- I think the Donmar experience with his fans made Colin aware of the beneficial effects the Internet has on his career. He must know that but for the Internet, none of his fans outside the U.K. would have had a clue that he was doing 3DOR. I like the idea of contacting the publicist. At worst, he'll say no, and he just might say yes. If he's skittish, we could even promise that questions would be limited to 3DOR and his film projects (i.e. nothing personal).

we could even promise that questions would be limited to 3DOR and his film projects (i.e. nothing personal). But I still want to know his musical taste. What does he play on that guitar of his? I must know! You two have a v. good point. I do not think he would be adverse to the idea, if someone does type for him, and now that Yahoo list cf.com (thank you Renate!), he might even do it there. Heide, Karen, something to think about, and act upon. ;-)) I will be away for the summer, but I am willing to leave a few questions for you ladies to ask on my behalf. :-D

Great idea Ladies. Afterall he did take our flowers home with him, (Livia did), so he is not, as we well know, unaware of us. Looking forward to 3DOR discussion, that is if it has been agreed.

Moon) I do not think he would be adverse to the idea, if someone does type for him I volunteer my services!

(Lizza), Afterall he did take our flowers home with him, (Livia did), so he is not, as we well know, unaware of us. Lizza, how do you know this? Pray tell! And, what did you write on the card?

Lizza, how do you know this? Yes, Lizza, please. I�ve been waiting for you to tell us the rest of the story about the flowers. Or maybe you already did but I didn�t notice? (What flowers were they?)

Shall we start the discussion of Three Days of Rain tomorrow? Monday? Rather pointless to start tonight, as some of us will be watching either Horatio or Mr. Buns of Steel (thank goodness for VCRs)!! To get this rolling, what are your overall impressions of Walker? He starts the play, lying there on the bed, comtemplating the noises of a city in which he doesn't feel he belongs, telling us his views on the "World According to Walker."

If I�m interpreting this silence correctly, we really didn�t see a play but Colin in a play and that�s about it!? Actually I didn�t find 3DOR a very interesting play, not because I only had eyes for Colin in Donmar but because the play IS kind of trivial. When I read it before London I really wondered how a play like this could be made interesting. It was interesting enough because of two very good performances, Colin�s and DM�s but the text is boring. Why did Colin choose to be in that play? Maybe because there�s something in Walker�s character that�s close to Colin�s own personality. I could imagine the same sort of frustrated enthusiasm about some things.....and because Walker also had been hiding for too long in Tuscany:-)

(Elena) ....but the text is boring. LOL Elena....I thought the dialogue was brilliant. V. contemporary, sophisticated, poignant at times, yet humorous .I am from NY ...I have met people like Walker (the name conjures his personality!!) I think this was an excellent choice for Colin to make for his re-entry after five years to the Westend. For starters, it had never been done before...no comparisons; a mystery/comedy as I saw it. V. inventive story-line. I agree that he made the part...but then he makes all the parts he plays. As they say...�some actors come on stage and you have to spotlight them, some actors bring the spotlight with them�. He�s definitely the latter. When he first came on stage in that Darcy -stride (you�d know him anywhere.. even in the dark) and started the story- line, I was hooked. Of course I had read it many times (thanks to Karen). ****** (Karen)what are your overall impressions of Walker? Walker..is a troubled loner..hippie-like... a �trustaferian�( ran across that word recently and can�t find it in the dictionary)...a rich kid feigning poverty. You bet he�s a mis-fit and enjoys it...works at it. Irresponsible. Cruel to Pip...that relationship was not well developed, IMO. But one got to know Walker well. **** Question: Is the stage setting part of the script? I mean, does the individual company have options to alter their own settings? The room looked like a Soho loft in New York.That minimalist look that is so �in�.The stairway and balcony was brilliant. Although I held my breath every time Colin ran up!! Given his propensity to trip.He never did...but he did trash the faucet in the matinee...but recovered gracefully.

I've just read the script and defer to all you experts who've seen the play. But it seems to me that Walker's got some baggage. What causes him to flee at the drop of a hat, telling no one? IMO it had something to do with, at the ripe old age of eight, seeing his mother become catatonic then fly through the glass door. How on earth did you all *not* LOL when Nan asked Walker where he was for the past year and he responded "Italy?"

I am from New York too and found the dialog extremely funny often sarcastic and pretentious as well. Luckily, I did not have a problem with the many references, literary or architectural in nature. There was of course Trimalchian which my DH quickly explained. Overall, it was not for everyone, and that�s probably what attracted ODB to the role, it was for a selective audience (of course, the irony is that women will flock anywhere, and across oceans and mountains to see him, and, if he also happens to be on a bed and get wet, well�so much the better ;-)) He wants to shake off that Darcy image but that�s just what sold out the show. He met the fans, he knows. (Karen)what are your overall impressions of Walker? Walker has his �mad moments� like his mother. He is also jealous of his father. We see this in his opening description of his father�s accomplishments. He is also an architect and in Italy he states that he rented �quite a fine villa, to study it and learn the bones of the building�, (I did not think he was a rich kid feigning poverty), and remember he travels with lots of traveler�s checks. He ends up in that apt. because it�s available after his long journey home. He wants his father�s house because he is trying to make peace with him, it is harder to be jealous of a dead man. (Think Ned and Theo). *Something to do with fenestration, he sees clearly through it now that his father is dead.** (Sorry, couldn�t resist, blame Greenberg) :-)

I think the play translates pretty well beyond American borders but it is still essentially an American play so I can see non-Americans questioning what the heck this is all about. There's a caffeine-induced (or in this case sleep-deprived) edginess bordering on neurotic that is very familiar in American characters today. I don't really want to use Woody Allen to guide you here because this goes beyond that - there's humor but it's sarcastic and caustic. To me it's reflective of an American generation t at has everything materially but still can't find happiness. (Evelyn) When he first came on stage in that Darcy -stride (you�d know him anywhere.. even in the dark) I'm getting shivers as I remember this. You'll have to forgive us sometimes for bringing up personal observances every now and then. It's still what's most clear in my mind...not necessarily the play itself, just moments. I remember clutching my friend Debbie's arm when he first walked on the stage in the dark. .The stairway and balcony was brilliant. Although I held my breath every time Colin ran up!! And when he ran down. There was one moment when he came pounding down the stairs in those big heavy boots. Made a hell of a noise. (Eileen) What causes him to flee at the drop of a hat, telling no one? IMO it had something to do with, at the ripe old age of eight, seeing his mother become catatonic then fly through the glass door. Probably central to his character. It seems also that he's been told that he's like his mother. He probably thinks he's a bit nuts himself so he must act the part. How on earth did you all *not* LOL when Nan asked Walker where he was for the past year and he responded "Italy?" Probably because we all had our fists in our mouth to keep from sighing too loudly. ;-) I think there was a slight rustling in the seats though when he did say "Italy". (Moon) He wants his father�s house because he is trying to make peace with him, it is harder to be jealous of a dead man. (Think Ned and Theo). I think that's an interesting observation and I'd like to search through more of the play to see if there are examples where Walker may be trying to make peace with Ned. I'd answer your questions, Karen, but I still have to study.

(Eileen)...defer to all you experts who've seen the play. We're not experts....you must understand that some of us were catatonic ourselves. i.e. I saw the whole matinee through my binoculors...does that make me an expert.? No. That makes me a Peeping Tom :-). So anyone who read it is on an even keel. (Moon)He wants his father�s house because he is trying to make peace with him, it is harder to be jealous of a dead man. (Think Ned and Theo). *Something to do with fenestration, he sees clearly. Interesting concept. Worth pondering. I can see where fenestration comes in with this idea. Hmmmmmmm

(Moon)Overall, it was not for everyone I guess I�m one of everyone then:-) It�s a nice play but pretty unsignificant IMO. Still it was very interesting to see, I haven�t seen that sort of stuff live in a theater before. It�s subtle and sophisticated enough to work well in tv, and only in a very small theater like Donmar. (Heide)non-Americans questioning what the heck this is all about Yes, there really is a cultural difference what comes to theater and I believe you have no idea how big it really is. 3DOR is a play that wouldn�t sell in Finland for an instant. And tell you what, it didn�t really make me laugh, just as little as American sitcom does, and just as little as Finnish humour would probably entertain Americans!

(Elena) And tell you what, it didn�t really make me laugh, just as little as American sitcom does,... Oh Elena...please don't judge our sense of humor based on American sitcoms...they are mostly dreadful ,IMO. On the same par as some of the talk shows.When I was in UK, I saw the worst of each of these genres... I was mortified I have never had the oportunity to see a Finnish film, I would like to v. much.

(Elena)Actually I didn�t find 3DOR a very interesting play...When I read it before London I really wondered how a play like this could be made interesting Indeed, I wondered so too. I thought the plot was rather transparent at times, to the point of clich�. Antonio even asked whether I really wanted to go, after I told him the story. But seeing it on stage was great. To see what good actors can do with a screenplay, and what very good actors can... (Evelyn)I have met people like Walker (the name conjures his personality!!) Walker..is a troubled loner..hippie-like... a rich kid feigning poverty. You bet he�s a mis-fit and enjoys it...works at it. Irresponsible. Cruel to Pip... (Moon Dreams)Walker has his �mad moments� like his mother.He is also jealous of his father... He is also an architect...He wants his father�s house because he is trying to make peace with him... (Heide)It seems also that he's been told that he's like his mother. He probably thinks he's a bit nuts himself so he must act the part. Oh, I think he is terrified of becoming mad like his mother. He is a very lonely person, has always been, more sensitive and more intelligent than the others around him, or regarded as such and regarding himself as such, which comes to the same thing. He follows this road as though it were his destiny. He longs to belong, though, and I think he wants the house because he needs roots. He cannot make peace with his father, whom he completely misunderstands, and is terribly jealous and hurt at his discovery f his father's closeness to Pip. We in the end find out that he is what is father would want to be "if he were stronger", but poor Walker doesn't know this. And I don't think he is very strong, though possibly a survivor. I wonder did his father recognize this, I don't think so. (Eileen)How on earth did you all *not* LOL when Nan asked Walker where he was for the past year and he responded "Italy?" I'm sure I chuckled :-)

Offer still open to send manuscript of play via e-mail to anyone who wants it--just send me your e-mail address!

(Gi) Oh, I think he is terrified of becoming mad like his mother. I agree. Seems to me that's why he kept running away, not telling anyone where he was--escaping, if you will. (Evelyn) We're not experts....you must understand that some of us were catatonic ourselves But most of you did see it twice (catatonic or not!) and read it as well. Reading only the script is so one dimensional, particularly one that includes such minimal stage direction. (Heide) You'll have to forgive us sometimes for bringing up personal observances Feel free. It helps me to put the script in context. For example: when did Walker and Nan run up and down the steps? When did Ned douse himself with water (famously pulling the tap off in the matinee)? I thought there were a few quips relative to NYC that outsiders wouldn't get (for example, there was a joke about the IRT) but there were far more references to other things that were beyond me. (Moon) There was of course Trimalchian which my DH quickly explained Please share! Speaking of Walker, did anyone else sense the irony of this passage? NED: I haven't g-got the strength of character. But it's what I would w-wish...for someone better than I am. I think it would be the best thing! To be this...vagabond prince. Do you know? A wanderer through the city. A walker. Hmmmmm...

(Eileen)..A wanderer through the city. A walker. I alluded to that in my opener.... a flandeur (I think that is what I am....always thinking of the next best place to go!!)

(Eileen)Speaking of Walker, did anyone else sense the irony of this passage? NED: I haven't g-got the strength of character. But it's what I would w-wish...for someone better than I am. I think it would be the best thing! To be this...vagabond prince. Do you know? A wanderer through the city. A walker. Didn't I?

(Elena) the play IS kind of trivial...the text is boring. I thought the text was its best aspect. The dialogue was smart, sharp and biting. In some reviews, his dialogue is compared to Noel Coward's Everytime he mentions a person or thing (from Trimalchian to the World of Suzy Wong), it means something--very clever how they all link so well. I did put together a Cliff's Notes to the play if anyone is interested (I can email it). It does elaborate on all the references, which are exceedingly clever. It might also provide some clues as to what the play is about on another level. BTW, after consulting assorted reference materials, I couldn't find Trimalchian. Guido came through. (Elena) Why did Colin choose to be in that play? My guess is the opportunity to play two different characters in the same play. This would be so challenging for him and would showcase his abilities to the max. A tour de force for him, especially since both were such bizarre characters. (Evelyn) Is the stage setting part of the script? I mean, does the individual company have options to alter their own settings? The playwright provides as much or as little information as to the set as he/she wants, but it's really up to the director and set designer. They do what they think works best for them, based on the director's vision/interpretation and budget!! (Eileen) But it seems to me that Walker's got some baggage. Absolutely, everybody has baggage, most of it in the form of his/her parents. When each of the present-day characters does his/her monologue to the audience, what do they talk about? Their parents, not themselves. As some have written, the play is also about a legacy, an inheritance, but the inheritance is more than just a house, it is genetic as well. What causes him to flee at the drop of a hat, telling no one? IMO it had something to do with, at the ripe old age of eight, seeing his mother become catatonic then fly through the glass door. Very interesting, Eileen, please go on. (Eileen) How on earth did you all *not* LOL when Nan asked Walker where he was for the past year and he responded "Italy?" As others have said, it was difficult. But there was another line that Pip says about his mother that gave me a case of the inner chuckles: "I think she's looking for another park bench, and another wet guy." Another wet guy, indeed!! (Moon) it was for a selective audience (of course, the irony is that women will flock anywhere, and across oceans and mountains to see him, and, if he also happens to be on a bed and get wet, well�so much the better ;-)) I see our criteria are much the same. ;-) (Moon) and remember he travels with lots of traveler's checks Hilarious!! Walker with traveler's checks. So middle class, so normal that it becomes perverse. (Moon) He ends up in that apt. because it's available after his long journey home. His long day's journey into night. Sorry, I couldn't resist (you started it, Moon). ;-) (Moon) He wants his father's house because he is trying to make peace with him....*Something to do with fenestration, he sees clearly through it now that his father is dead.** Love the bit about the fenestration although am not sure about the jealous part. In Walker's mind, having the house would help him understand his father (the father who didn't act like a father). Remember his explanation to Nan about finding this apartment/office: "The place is so nothing. I couldn't imagine why he'd kept it. I paced the floor for two days, screaming at the walls: 'Speak! Speak!' It was infuriating." Shame he didn't realize that the walls were screaming back at him! ;-) (Eileen) What causes him to flee at the drop of a hat, telling no one? IMO it had something to do with, at the ripe old age of eight, seeing his mother become catatonic then fly through the glass door. (Gi) Oh, I think he is terrified of becoming mad like his mother. I definitely agree with you two. He must have been scared out of his mind that he would indeed end up like his mother. Escape. (Gi) He is a very lonely person, has always been, more sensitive and more intelligent than the others around him, or regarded as such and regarding himself as such, which comes to the same thing. Well said. (Gi) is terribly jealous and hurt at his discovery of his father's closeness to Pip. I love both Walker's and Nan's reactions to when Pip is trying to dig himself out of the hole, to lessen their suspicions about his relationship with Ned. "I was just somebody he found it easy to talk to." They are amazed, stunned, that the great silent one found it easy to talk to anybody! (Eileen) When did Ned douse himself with water (famously pulling the tap off in the matinee)? Second act after hyperventilating when Theo rides him hard about his own lack of talent. (Eileen) Speaking of Walker, did anyone else sense the irony of this passage?...a walker I've gotten accustomed to listening hard to the audience at this point for some sign of recognition. Actually, all the names mean something (uh oh, she's starting again...) but I don't know about Lina. Greenberg has confirmed this in an interview in case anyone needs authoritative references. ;-)

(Karen), I love both Walker's and Nan's reactions to when Pip is trying to dig himself out of the hole, to lessen their suspicions about his relationship with Ned. "I was just somebody he found it easy to talk to." They are amazed, stunned, that the great silent one found it easy to talk to anybody! Yes, and why did he find it so easy to converse with Pip? To Ned he was the closest thing to Theo. Ned and Theo�s relationship was cut short by Theo�s death. We know that Ned did not like or care for children, and Nan and Walker suffered from it. Lina and Theo�s relationship was also unresolved. Lina and Theo were a couple and then Theo runs off when he sees Ned and Lina only to go sit in the park and meet his future wife (Theo�s mother). What if Lina were in love with Theo and only considered Ned a trist? Theo meets someone else, Ned is willing to marry her and she needs that security. �The beginning of error.� She marries Ned but is resentful and unhappy which makes her slightly mad, not close to her children and�she takes a flight of fancy through some glass. (fenestration, the repetitive underlying theme). In Walker's mind, having the house would help him understand his father (the father who didn't act like a father). Remember his explanation to Nan about finding this apartment/office: "The place is so nothing. I couldn't imagine why he'd kept it. I paced the floor for two days, screaming at the walls: 'Speak! Speak!' It was infuriating." And when the journal spoke, in the end, he burned it. Apart from the Italy remark how did you manage when he brings up Jane Austen?

Apart from the Italy remark how did you manage when he brings up Jane Austen? About 40 women in the audience took deep breaths to stifle chuckles:-) Same with removal of wet sweater!!

Walker is reacting to a phrase in the journal that changes how he sees things; to the effect that "I (Ned) took everything from him (Theo)". What goes into that list of "everything" as Act II is written? Has it occurred to anyone that at the end of Act I, it is Pip who has "taken everything"...the house, Walker's father's acknowledgement, even approval, his sister's affection, all in that vague, unintentional way. Now Walker is in the position that Theo was.

--Karen-- I'd be very interested in seeing your "Cliff's notes" on this one. Please send them to me...

(KJArt), Walker is reacting to a phrase in the journal that changes how he sees things; to the effect that "I (Ned) took everything from him (Theo)". What goes into that list of "everything" as Act II is written? In Act II I believe Ned took everything when he ends up with Lina. The house and the fame came much later. Has it occurred to anyone that at the end of Act I, it is Pip who has "taken everything"...the house, Walker's father's acknowledgement, even approval, his sister's affection, all in that vague, unintentional way. Now Walker is in the position that Theo was. Please elaborate KJArt, in what way is Walker in the same position? Pip was just as surprised as W and N when he heard the house was left to him, why he even wants to give the house to Walker. Pip doesn't like the house. Ironically Pip and Nan might have left each other for fear of Ned's reaction to their relationship.

Eileen, you asked about Trimalchian earlier. This is the explanation Moon provided: The word is Trimalci�nico, it comes from Trimalcione, the character in Satyricon by Petronio. Trimalcione gives a huge banquet: grandiose, sumptuos, spectacular. The word is associated with banquets. It was just a salad!!

(KJArt), Walker is reacting to a phrase in the journal that changes how he sees things; to the effect that "I (Ned) took everything from him (Theo)". What goes into that list of "everything" as Act II is written? (Moon) In Act II I believe Ned took everything when he ends up with Lina. The house and the fame came much later. Indeed, Ned took Lina from Theo (BTW, was that pronounced Lee-na or Line-a?) but he also came up with the design for the house. Theo was supposed to be the genius. Theo went away with the specific purpose to develop an original idea; he returns to find his girlfriend has moved on and his partner has "scooped" him on a design. So in a way, Ned has taken Theo's genius. The world at large doesn't know which partner came up with the idea, but Ned and Theo (and Lina) know. (Moon) Ironically Pip and Nan might have left each other for fear of Ned's reaction to their relationship. They might have been more concerned about Walker's knowledge: PIP: -but I didn't do it. And Walker is great, I mean, don't get me wrong, Walker is great. He's great. Sometimes I question Walker's greatness, but he's great...and he's in so much pain-but to call me things like that in front of all the wood and the leather and the lawyer-it's really inexcusable, it's incorrigible. And you can't say anything to him. You can't scream at him, you can't disapprove of him, you can't even, you know, mildly remonstrate with him because he's in so much pain. NAN: Yes PIP: I mean, has there ever been a time when he wasn't in so much pain? NAN: No. PIP: No, I mean, I remember when we were ten, not doing things because he was in so much pain. I connected everything to it: "I better not eat that baloney sandwich, Walker is in so much pain." I mean, a ten-year-old boy shouldn't be so emotionally, whatever, fastidious about another ten-year-old boy's feelings, but, with him... NAN: I know. PIP: There comes a time, Nan, there just comes a point when you have to say: enough, I don't care that you're in so much pain, you cannot behave like this any longer. (Beat) But you can't because he's in so much pain. Walker needed help (the psychological kind) as a child and never received it. Now he's paying the price. He's scared s**tless and tries, unsuccessfully, to cover it up. (Moon) She marries Ned but is resentful and unhappy which makes her slightly mad IMO her madness goes way beyond this. She was probably always sick (schizophrenic?) and her condition eventually became acute. Now Walker is in the position that Theo was. Good point. Thanks for the info on Trimalchian, Karen.

Now Walker is in the position that Theo was. Good point. Please explain, Eileen, I do not see it.

Trimalchian Whoever said this play was pretentious (Elena?) was right. Or rather Walker was. **** I still like it....but it's hard work.

Trimalchian (Evelyn) Whoever said this play was pretentious was right. Or rather Walker was. Lina (pronounced line-a, Eileen) made the comment about the salad Ned prepared. But doesn't that tell you something about what Greenberg is doing? What kind of people they are and the world in which they live. As Lina says to Ned after the caterwauling scene: "Everybody I've met in this city is a genius. And the ones that aren't are connoisseurs." (huge laugh) What a brilliant putdown on the tony people of the town.

(KJArt) Now Walker is in the position that Theo was. (Eileen) Good point. (Moon) Please explain, Eileen, I do not see it. KJ's initial comment concerned the perception that Ned took everything from Theo (Lina, etc.). Now Walker believes Pip has taken everything from him (father's attention/?affection, the house, etc.). That's my interpretation of KJ's observation.

(Moon) Yes, and why did he find it so easy to converse with Pip? To Ned he was the closest thing to Theo. However, it could just be that Ned was able to converse easily with Pip because he was now an adult. Ned said, "I just...n-never know what to say to them." He's afraid of them because of their candor and ability to humiliate him and says (with all candor) that they are intensely boring. (More big laughs as most of the audience can definitely relate to the tedious examples.) Ned couldn't establish that kind of relationship with his own children because they were irreversibly harmed. (Moon) What if Lina were in love with Theo and only considered Ned a tryst? One of the bigger themes of this play is the role of destiny. Lina probably thought herself in love with Theo or was (past tense); however, she couldn't make herself in the kind of person Theo needed. He was an ambitious man, hell bent on fame and fortune and he was going to do it. He was capable of doing it. He was a follower of Nietzsche. At the very end Ned questions Lina about what Theo is going to do and she says, "He's a handsome young man in Manhattan, something will happen to him." It does. I particularly liked Ned's and Lina's comments about "running into each other" on that day. They were fated to hook up together. But fate doesn't always mean a happy ending, does it? See Oedipus. ;-) (Evelyn) About 40 women in the audience took deep breaths to stifle chuckles:-) Same with removal of wet sweater!! Re sweater: No, I think the sound was major disappointment! ;-) (KJArt) Has it occurred to anyone that at the end of Act I, it is Pip who has "taken everything"...in that vague, unintentional way. That's a very interesting observation, KJ, and I can see it. (Moon) In Act II I believe Ned took everything when he ends up with Lina. The house and the fame came much later. But Ned wrote that phrase in his journal just after Theo died. The world didn't know that Theo had lost his genius (did he ever have it?). That was strictly among Ned, Theo and Lina. (Eileen) So in a way, Ned has taken Theo's genius. Did he ever really have genius? What did you make of this then: "Theo's been a little st-stalled since school..." Makes me wonder what has really been going on. (Eileen) Walker needed help (the psychological kind) as a child and never received it. Now he's paying the price. He's scared s**tless and tries, unsuccessfully, to cover it up. Notice that he specifically mentions Walker as a 10 year old child (post-mother-through-the-plate-glass-window incident.) FYI, Eileen (and anyone else vaguely interested) this scene was incredibly funny (despite the serious content) and milked for maximum laughs by the Chicago actor. He had a cadence in his voice, so that by the last "he's in so much pain" the audience can't hold it in. This is Pip's biggest and best scene-stealing scene and the Chicago actor was far better than David Morrissey (he was adequate). (Eileen) IMO her madness goes way beyond this. She was probably always sick (schizophrenic?) and her condition eventually became acute. Didn't someone (Nan??) say it might have been mistaken for being southern? The cutsey view of southerners as being eccentric or mad promulgated by southern writers from Faulker to Tennessee Williams to Walker Percy to Carson McCullers ad nauseam.

(Karen) Did he ever really have genius? No, he didn't. He couldn't come up with an original thought. Apparently others believed he was (perhaps due to early success in school, looks, personality vs. Ned). When Ned comes up with the house idea (particularly in the wake of Theo's failure), it becomes glaringly obvious who the genius is. Both Ned and Theo have known all along. But this begs the question: Why were Ned's subsequent projects less successful? Guilt? (Sorry, we digress from the topic of Walker). Thanks for the info on how the "pain" scene was played. How were Walker's lines "Theo dying, Theo dying, Theo dead" and "you must publish?" (the latter in response to Pip's "do the f**king math" view of Oedipus) received?

( Karen), Re sweater: No, I think the sound was major disappointment! ;-) Why Karen? The cutsey view of southerners as being eccentric or mad promulgated by southern writers from Faulker to Tennessee Williams to Walker Percy to Carson McCullers ad nauseam. I love this! Very good point. Did he ever really have genius? What did you make of this then: "Theo's been a little st-stalled since school..." Makes me wonder what has really been going on. But Theo was being interviewed at the Plaza remember, he must have done something right. But doesn't that tell you something about what Greenberg is doing? What kind of people they are and the world in which they live. As Lina says to Ned after the caterwauling scene: "Everybody I've met in this city is a genius. And the ones that aren't are connoisseurs." (huge laugh) What a brilliant putdown on the tony people of the town. It�s a put down and a compliment at the same time, and it works very well. :-D Can you imagine Greenberg in company with plebeians? I suspect not.

Let's see now, "Theo dying, Theo dying, Theo dead" Colin reads them to Nan as if imparting words of major significance. He has to because he will build to his own crescendo during the paragraph starting with "Reconstruct along with me this moment." He is at his emotional peak for "April 3rd to April 5th: Three days of rain." A weather report. A fucking weather report! As the stage directions indicate, he quiets down after that. Colin did it so well. I loved when he got all worked up. "you must publish" One of my all-time favorites!! There is initial amazement at Pip's inane conclusion about doing the math (big laugh). Those lines are said dripping with sarcasm and amusement at his own ability to manipulate Pip so easily. He's egging him on. Right after that Pip realizes that he is being taunted ("I walked right into--"). What do others think?

(Eileen), Why were Ned's subsequent projects less successful? Maybe in his mind only because the house was such a hard project to conceive. There are many of his buildings around town and abroad. BTW, how many of you are waiting for the opportunity to use the word Trimalchian in conversation? (heehee)

Disappointment? Because that's all he took off! ;-)

(Moon Dreams)Lina and Theo�s relationship was also unresolved. Lina and Theo were a couple and then Theo runs off when he sees Ned and Lina only to go sit in the park and meet his future wife I don't think seeing Ned and Lina really registered on Theo. His only concern was that he'd "brought nothing back", that his genius had let him down. Lina didn't really mean much to him at that moment. (Moon Dreams)And when the journal spoke, in the end, he burned it. Ah, but again: he didn't understand the journal. At the end, I felt sorry for him, because "we" understood and "he" never would. (Karen)Ned said, "I just...n-never know what to say to them." He's afraid of them because of their candor and ability to humiliate him and says (with all candor) that they are intensely boring. Walker doesn't like children either. To him they are all alike (twins) (Evelyn) About 40 women in the audience took deep breaths to stifle chuckles:-) Same with removal of wet sweater!! (Karen)No, I think the sound was major disappointment! ;-)...Because that's all he took off! ;-) Yes! He wore the sweater over a white shirt (T-shirt? I don't remember)and the shirt stayed on. THe sweater was (un)buttoned in front, so there wasn't even the beautiful stretching movement of taking it off over his head :-( (Karen)...a cadence in his voice, so that by the last "he's in so much pain" the audience can't hold it in. This is Pip's biggest and best scene-stealing scene Shakesperean, I thought: "For Brutus is an honourable man" (Eileen)obvious who the genius is. Both Ned and Theo have known all along. No, I don't think so. At least not Theo, to him it came as a terrible surprise. Ned might have known, but been too shy to aknowledge it (even to himself?) (Eileen)But this begs the question: Why were Ned's subsequent projects less successful? Guilt? Perhaps no special reason? Most people who make a masterpiece never can math it again. (Moon Dreams)But Theo was being interviewed at the Plaza remember, he must have done something right. They were partners. "They" had done something right, but Theo would be the natural interviewee. (Karen)"you must publish" One of my all-time favorites!! There is initial amazement at Pip's inane conclusion about doing the math (big laugh). Why inane? I can see his point. Most tragedies don't make sense. I know, we do not love them for their content's sense but for their form's beauty. I do too, of course. But I can look at them dispassionately as well as passionately, and and Pip is a very pragmatical guy. Not an antiques collector, you may be sure! (Moon Dreams)BTW, how many of you are waiting for the opportunity to use the word Trimalchian in conversation? (heehee) Trimalchion (Greek name) was also a nouveau riche type, as opposed to Lucullus, also known for his lavish banquets but who was a (real) Roman aristocrat.;-P

(Gi) Ah, but again: he didn't understand the journal. At the end, I felt sorry for him, because "we" understood and "he" never would. I can't feel too sorry for him because, when Nan questions his conclusions, he says "I want it to be." Not that its correct, but it's the only conclusion that makes any sense to him. One can't get at the truth when one's ego is in the way. ;-) (Gi) Why inane? I can see his point. Most tragedies don't make sense. Only from the standpoint that Pip oversimplifies a very complex story as if life were that simple. Agreed, he is a very pragmatic guy, but he doesn't think anything is complex. It doesn't always work out that way.

Yes, luculliano, a Lucullan banquet (a sumptuous dinner). (Just the thing I'm planning for your bridal shower Gi):-D

Lucullan is used more frequently than Trimalchian. But I'm sure Greenberg knew that.;-)

(KJArt) Has it occurred to anyone that at the end of Act I, it is Pip who has "taken everything"...in that vague, unintentional way. (Karen)That's a very interesting observation, KJ, and I can see it. I think that is a brilliant conclusion and one that Greenberg hid under the stairs.It all makes sense from that premise. ** Yes, Karen...the line "...you must publish" by Walker was terrific as deliver by Colin..he has great comedic timing.

What keeps nagging at me is the attempt to reconstruct the beginning of the Theo/Ned relationship. Remember, Theo kept accusing Ned of "running away" or "evasion", so Walker is being true to form. And yet, I believe the basis of this relationship is that Ned was trying to be very supportive of Theo's ambition ("he-he...wants things...I...I...n-never...much. Theo wants"), and VERY protective of his ego, of his confidence in the illusion of his own genius. This is probably out of gratitude for Theo's bef iending him and taking him out of his own horrible environment("I l-left home to get away from people...who have no g-grace, People who are r-randomly cruel...") which makes Theo feel the protective one ("You had no other friends, I took you in--"). Ned merely perpetuates this illusion, too. Walker believed the complete opposite of his father's background. He thought that the parents had commissioned the house "because, I guess, they loved him so much..." whereas Ned reveals that they did it "as a way of making up." Thus that arch of "guilt", I think. But Theo was a natural self-promoter, a PR man, and Ned just let him drift that way, hoping, I suppose, that EVENTUALLY Theo would come up with something that would, at last, manifest Theo's illusion of greatness. Only Theo himself finally realized it was an illusion, which shattered Ned. Ned felt he had failed to protect him, I think. Ned was too diffident to push his own ideas. Even when he had to finally produce something, he wanted to "hire someone" rather than be the one to show up Theo, shatter him further. But Lina insisted. I'm sure their whole life Ned did everything to push the appearance of an equal partnership, but even after Theo died, one can see why Ned felt he had taken "everything" away from Theo.

(KJArt), I'm sure their whole life Ned did everything to push the appearance of an equal partnership, but even after Theo died, one can see why Ned felt he had taken "everything" away from Theo. And therefore left the house to Pip as a way to give "something" back. Walker believed the complete opposite of his father's background. He thought that the parents had commissioned the house "because, I guess, they loved him so much..." whereas Ned reveals that they did it "as a way of making up." Thus that arch of "guilt", I think. And this tells us once again how little they really know of each other. The windows are opaque when they should be clear (fenestration strikes again). In fact, as Walker says, "All the glass, the house is a prism." We don't see clearly through a prism, and we don't see these characters clearly either.

Well, Walker believed that if he had the house it could at last "speak to" him of his father. He believed that because the house was beautiful, "it could only been designed by someone who was happy" (true, true), and he wanted a taste of that happiness. But as soon as he believed the house was Theo's, he didn't want it any more.

"All the glass, the house is a prism." We don't see clearly through a prism, and we don't see these characters clearly either. Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? Is this what the playwright wanted us to see? Does the Janeway House stand for something else besides an edifice that Ned and Theo designed? ***** And taking it further....is there a Janeway House in each of our lives? Maybe," I'm reaching for it....."

(KJArt)as soon as he believed the house was Theo's, he didn't want it any more. Hadn't thought of that one.Humm!

(KJArt) What keeps nagging at me is the attempt to reconstruct the beginning of the Theo/Ned relationship. They sound codependent to me. Ned needs Theo on a personal level for friendship and professionally because Theo's a "people person." Theo needs Ned's loyalty and dependence. (Eileen)obvious who the genius is. Both Ned and Theo have known all along. (Gi)No, I don't think so. At least not Theo, to him it came as a terrible surprise I see your point Gi, but stick with the belief that on some level Theo knew. IMO it's one of the reasons he's so dependent on Ned--to reinforce the illusion. (Moon) We don't see clearly through a prism, and we don't see these characters clearly either. Great point, Moon. And they certainly don't see eachother clearly! (Evelyn) Yes, Karen...the line "...you must publish" by Walker was terrific as deliver by Colin..he has great comedic timing. As soon as I read it, I thought this was the most overtly funny line in the play. I knew ODB would nail it!

( Evelyn), Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? Is this what the playwright wanted us to see? Does the Janeway House stand for something else besides an edifice that Ned and Theo designed? Yes! To all three questions, and, we are working our way through it rather nicely, don't you think?

Throughout most of Act I, we see Walker asking for the house, begging for the house, (when given to Pip) mourning for the house. Nan, remember, asked him directly "you hated him...why do you want his house?". Walker's reply showed the many things the house stood for, as far as he was concerned: He wanted a place of his own, he wanted to stop being what Ned had always wanted to be--a flaneur. He believed the house held for him security and safety...he was terrified of his mother's legacy; he didn't want to "end badly", he didn't want to be a "burden" on the ones he loved (BTW, who ARE the ones he loved??) and he wouldn't be that if he had that place of his own. Notice when he and Nan walked out how he wanted the family to come, to be there, to visit. But mostly I think he wanted the house to be his last chance to connect with a father who evidently rejected him (at least ignored him), who never spoke--he wanted the house to speak to him the way Ned couldn't (or didn't). And this father, at the last, denied him even this last chance to connect, to be sane, to have a center, to have his own place (to hide?), to have his fears soothed. This father gave the house to Pip instead. What a terrible loss!!--until he believed the house was not of Ned after all. What a wonderful relief!! Remember...he wanted the interpretation to be that way. Maybe he burned the book to make sure it stayed that way...his father hadn't rejected him after all.

(Evelyn) Yes, Karen...the line "...you must publish" by Walker was terrific as deliver by Colin..he has great comedic timing. (Eileen)As soon as I read it, I thought this was the most overtly funny line in the play. I knew ODB would nail it And did he ever... sitting on a stool and waving those gorgeous hands around. ( I don't think he is a vane actor....but I think he knows he has beautiful hands because he uses them so much..)

vain!, Evelyn, vain!

(KJArt) Remember...he wanted the interpretation to be that way. Maybe he burned the book to make sure it stayed that way...his father hadn't rejected him after all. Yes, that interpretation was the only one he could accept, but I don't think that's why he burned the book. He said he felt like Hedda Gabler at that moment. There was a devilish look in Colin's eyes as he said the line. He's striking back; he's destroying something that meant a great deal to his father. It's revenge, pure and simple. (KJArt) He wanted a place of his own, he wanted to stop being what Ned had always wanted to be--a flaneur. Doesn't it make you wonder why Ned, who hadn't the courage to be a flaneur himself, got married. His marriage was doomed because he admired a rootless life. It may not have been just Lina's madness. Ned may not have been suited to being married. (BTW, who ARE the ones he loved??) Nan is one, but yes...who are they? ;-) Great observations, KJ.

( Evelyn)Does the Janeway House stand for something else besides an edifice that Ned and Theo designed? I'm sure it is, but "a microcosm of their lives" is perhaps too much :-) ( Evelyn)I don't think he is a vane actor....but I think he knows he has beautiful hands because he uses them so much.. Not necessarily ;-)He just knows that real people use their hands, don't just stand there and throw words out of their mouths. Perhaps he became more conscious of it since he's been consorting with italians... BTW, one thing that nagged me was that EMcG kept her hands in her raincoat's pockets although evidently using them too. (Karen)Doesn't it make you wonder why Ned, who hadn't the courage to be a flaneur himself, got married. His marriage was doomed because he admired a rootless life. It may not have been just Lina's madness. Ned may not have been suited to being married. Why do you think the marriage was doomed? I didn't think it was, apart from the fact that Lina went insane, and that didn't necessarily have much to do with Ned. Who is Hedda Gabler?

(Gi) Who is Hedda Gabler? From my own little Cliffs Notes: Ibsen heroine who is selfish and willful, whose unbridled desire to dominate and destroy others brings death to herself. L�vborg, Hedda's castoff lover, is inspired by another woman (Thea) to write a book and becomes famous. He writes another manuscript with Thea's help and inspiration which Hedda ultimately burns. "I am burning your child."

( Evelyn)I don't think he is a vane actor....but I think he knows he has beautiful hands because he uses them so much.. (Gi),Not necessarily ;-)He just knows that real people use their hands, don't just stand there and throw words out of their mouths. Perhaps he became more conscious of it since he's been consorting with italians... I agree Gi, not a very British thing to do. :-D ( Evelyn)Does the Janeway House stand for something else besides an edifice that Ned and Theo designed? I'm sure it is, but "a microcosm of their lives" is perhaps too much :-) But Greenberg is too much himself. Do not put it past him. Ned loves Lina, that is why he marries her. We do not see other examples of his being a flaneur. It is just talk. Walker on the other hand is. His wanting the house meant a commitment to change. His burning the book ultimately keeps him as he was. His using the book as a memorial at the end was in contrast to his lighting the candle at his father s grave in the beginning when the candle would not light because of the rain. (beat) I enjoyed your observations too KJArt.

(KJArt)...vain!, Evelyn, vain! Thank you, KJArt:-) I thought it looked odd!! ***** Rain, rain, rain,.....rain at the cemetery,rain at the house.... What's with all this rain, anyway!! And did the candle not light at the cemetery because of the rain...or the father's ultimate rejection of poor Walker. Thank you KJArt for bringing the discussion of the play to another level.

What's with all this rain, anyway!! 1. The title. 2. Can not see clearly through it (fenestration once again). 3. Susie Wong. The candle did not light at the cemetary because of the rain. The memorial was not to happen until the end when he burns the journal and finally cuts off any connection left to his father.

( Evelyn) Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? I don't know if it's a microcosm--perhaps symbol is a better word? (Forgive me, it's been a looong time since my last Lit class). (KJArt) Maybe he burned the book to make sure it stayed that way...his father hadn't rejected him after all. (Karen) He's striking back; he's destroying something that meant a great deal to his father. It's revenge, pure and simple. Each of these observations make sense. Can't it be both? Walker seeks revenge since anger is easier to deal with than rejection, but both rejection and anger motivate the behavior. (Karen) Doesn't it make you wonder why Ned, who hadn't the courage to be a flaneur himself, got married? ...And named his only son, his heir, his legacy--Walker. "Flaneur Janeway" just doesn't have a ring to it! By the time baby Walker came along, Ned made peace with the fact he wasn't going to be the flaneur of his dreams and passed the wish onto his son. I agree with Gi: I think Lina's madness (and how they didn't deal with it) pushed this family from dysfunctional to seriously dysfunctional. Thanks for the Cliffs Notes, Karen. I missed much more than I thought (I blew that 'IRT' joke, for sure! Had nothing whatsoever to do with NYC as I hang my head in embarassment).

Evelyn, from where did you acquire the knowledge that ODB "has a propensity to trip?" His own observation in an interview, perhaps? Or someone else's on a set? I like the way he can add this little catch in motion for comedic purposes...(Ex: Valmont), but I wasn't aware he had this weakness in real life.

Oh, and it is NOT a Darcy-stride as you and others often describe (with appropriate delighted reactions appended to the notation...) It is a Firthian-stride which he has made an attribute of the Darcy character as well as with several other characters (including Walker). Colin does not walk like Darcy--Darcy walks like Colin!! (So does Walker...Strange coincidence, what?!)

Eileen, you once asked a question way back when which I believe was not satisfactorily covered. To wit: Why were Ned's subsequent projects less successful? Even Walker (I think)(or was it Pip?) remarks that in the later years he just coasted. I don't think this was a conscious attempt by Ned to preserve Theo's "legend" by not overshadowing him. Theo was the one who "wanted things", i.e. was ambitious for fame and success. Ned didn't. I think with Theo around to impel him, he pushed his own creativity (and probably Theo's as well), but once the goad that was Theo was removed, I think Ned just slipped back into living life the way he wanted...he let his young proteges do the sweating after fame and fortune (but never as well as he had...)

(Moon) And therefore left the house to Pip as a way to give "something" back. Like his reputation? If Walker believed that Theo was the creative genius behind Janeway House, it is likely others would as well and, in that way, Ned gave Theo the fame he desired. (KJArt) Walker believed that if he had the house it could at last "speak to" him of his father...But as soon as he believed the house was Theo's, he didn't want it any more. Right, why would he want it? It wasn't his father's; it served no purpose for him. (Evelyn) Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? I'd agree that it is a symbol of something. The aspect of fenestration and prisms is quite apt, but what about the other characteristics mentioned by Nan and Walker? The alternating use of solids and voids. Then the mention of light. Rooms that change like liquid. What do these all mean? I'm clueless. :( Could the house be Ned? or people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? (couldn't resist) ;-D (Gi) Why do you think the marriage was doomed? I didn't think it was, apart from the fact that Lina went insane, and that didn't necessarily have much to do with Ned. Maybe her insanity was hastened by the realization that she shouldn't have married Ned when she really loved Theo? (Gasp! How could anyone prefer David Morrissey to Colin?) That hadn't occurred to me until I saw it in the London reviews. I'm not sure it can be substantiated by the text either, but I thought I'd mention it. ;-) Lina and Theo had a symbiotic relationship, like Theo and Ned. Could two codependents (codependent on a third party) be happy together, compounded by the fact that one wished e could be free to roam the world? You didn't think it odd that neither of the children could see any traces of a loving marriage? Lina's hospitalization occurred when Nan was 10. At that age, she should have some recollection of earlier, happier, more normal days. Lina wasn't always catatonic and rocking soundlessly before throwing herself through plate-glass windows (glass again??). Remember she said she was a nonstop talker. Why didn't she tell her "future" drinking partner about herself and her dad? Lina is a big missing piece in my puzzle. I really feel that, if we knew what she represented, we'd understand what happened. Lina, Carolina, southern state, what??? It's killing me! (Moon) 3. Susie Wong. Don't you just love it? The boy cloud and the girl cloud. I cannot believe how it all just works so beautifully. (Eileen) I missed much more than I thought Don't be embarrassed. I didn't just jot these down.. It took a lot of work. I had to turn into Sherlock Holmes Do you think "The World of Suzie Wong" can be found at Blockbusters?! All those writers and philosophers had to mean something. And I think they do. Much more on this later.

(KJArt)Evelyn, from where did you acquire the knowledge that ODB "has a propensity to trip?" "I read somewhere"... "Honestly"...that he tripped up the stairs in Valmont and in P&P going up the stairs in Rosings. I don't know about this propensity personally...(Do you think he would purposely trip in a movie scene?) He does have big feet though. (KJArt)Oh, and it is NOT a Darcy-stride as you and others often describe..... It is a Firthian-stride which he has made an attribute of the Darcy character as well as with several other characters (including Walker). I know that. Hey, I even recognized that stride on Earlham Street on a dark rainy night...across the street from the theatre!! The reason I call it a Darcy -stride is because P&P is the first film I ever saw him in. Actually, if one wishes to be totally accurate ...one could call it "St. Louis swagger"!!!:-)

(Karen) Lina is a big missing piece in my puzzle. So true, so true. I, too, wondered why Nan is pretty much ignorant of how her Dad and Mom got together...both children refer to the marriage as something that was "settled" on when all other options expired... Even Lina maybe felt that way, but I don't think because of affection. She thought it was "tragic" when Ned revealed that there was no "secret" to the city, but she ultimately responds: "Still...I want something...I suppose I'll marry Theo and that will be something--" and when Ned asks (sharply) "is that happening?", she replies, "Nobody ever says anything, but...what else?" She doesn't sound terribly enthused about it...I think she was "settling" for Theo, until she realized how mitten Ned was for her. Therefore I don't believe she was really ever in love with Theo, and never really sounded like she was suffering for his loss. The breakup of the marriage with Ned came, I think simply because after Walker is born: "my father became spectacularly successful, and his partner died shockingly young and my mother became increasingly mad..." My guess is that by the time the children were old enough to talk to, Lina was already beyond the pale, sanity-wise. Her glaringly insane behavior in the hallway was being seemingly ignored by the rest of the family--how long had it been going on and how intensely? Schizophrenia is of en a progressive condition which can have remissions and relapses. What kind of model did these children have of what normality was supposed to be? Unless there is intersession by, say grandparents or professional caretakers (which were not mentioned), it is a wonder that either of them could grow up into an even remote copy of normal adulthood ( and I think Walker obviously didn't...). But through all of this, I don't the destruction of the marriage had anything to do with Theo. His death may have tr ggered even further withdrawal behavior in Lina, but can't be said to have "caused" it. The divorce was simply a response to Lina's complete separation from reality and became necessary. I have to admit that when she and Theo were still going together, she had come to know him very well...and never suffered the guilt pangs Ned did when she shifted allegiances...

(KJArt).... intersession intercession, Karen J, intercession..... '-)

I'm way behind this discussion and will never catch up. It's been asked how we in the audience felt when Jane Austen and Italy were mentioned. What gave me a thrill was hearing Colin as Walker says to Nan, "Would youplease, please, please just... hug me." Shades of Paul Ashworth. See, KJ, we don't see Darcy in everything. ;-) I don't think Walker hated his father as he seems to do and as his sister says he did. I think he was desperate to understand him. He obviously has studied architecture, perhaps as a key to understand Ned? I agree with others who've said by reading the passage in the journal that Ned has taken everything from Theo, that he thinks he now understands his father. This is what "I want it to be". It's an agreeable revelation to him. He doesn't want to know more. He burns the book then ..."a selfish and ilfull act" as Karen says. IMO it's not out of revenge, though. There's no need for revenge anymore...he found (he thinks) what he needed to know and there is (mis)understanding and forgiveness. Ironic that it is Nan who at first wants to know nothing of what is in the journal but when Walker starts to burn it, wails "Now we'll never know anything." There are signs of Lina's problems in the play. She wakes to a "brown study". She's gloomy sometimes and opaque. (Fenestration again, Moon?). I doubt the children ever knew a mother who could pass for normal. I feel sorriest for Lina. She's so bright and witty. She's responsible for Ned's success. Her scene where she charts Ned's "flight path" is loving and poignant. But you see the desperation and yearning. Was she ever happy? I like Gi's (?) take on Theo as the PR man. Karen said he was hell bent on fame and fortune. He found it but not in the way he expected though only he, Ned and Lina knew it. His wife had an idealized vision of him...doubt she ever knew what the true roles in the firm really were. I like Greenberg's joke on us in the Pip monologue - his mother liked to get caught up in a play where you could never remember the plot of where the girl got caught in the rain and had to put on the man's bathrobe and they sort of did a little dance around each other and fell in love. Then in Act 2, Lina's coquettish line to Ned when she goes to put on a robe after getting caught in the rain, I've seen this scene before. The little dance Lina and Ned did around each other then was superb.

I have so enjoyed your discussions here and wish I had the time to join in regularly at the moment. You have brought it all back for me, I can see, hear and smell it all over again. I wish I could add "touch " to that list!!!

Moon, tried to email you about 3DOR last week, but it was returned several times.

Lizza, my DH does not know about my alter-ego. I have emailed you and hopefully will receive that most desired 3DOR info. Thanks. :-)

(Evelyn) Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? ( Karen), I'd agree that it is a symbol of something. The aspect of fenestration and prisms is quite apt, but what about the other characteristics mentioned by Nan and Walker? The alternating use of solids and voids. Then the mention of light. Rooms that change like liquid. What do these all mean? I'm clueless. :( One can�t see through solids. Voids in one�s life can block the understanding of oneself. They are metaphors for thecharacters themselves. We need the missing pieces (all the solids), to fully understand the whole(structure). Rooms that change like liquid are never quite the same, or never what they seem. Ned, Lina and Theo are never quite what they seem. Lina and Theo had a symbiotic relationship, like Theo and Ned. Could two codependents (codependent on a third party) be happy together, compounded by the fact that one wished e could be free to roam the world? Codependents in a building is a solid, free to roam the world is a liquid. Lina is a big missing piece in my puzzle. I really feel that, if we knew what she represented, we'd understand what happened. It may be Greenberg is using her as a Deus-Ex-Machina. In that case, we really wouldn�t need to know. :-) Lina, Carolina, southern state, what??? I like the Carolina idea, especially since we know it was pronounced. All those writers and philosophers had to mean something. And I think they do. They make us understand the characters. Hegel and Heidiger are very �heavy�. Ibsen, I think he admires. Heide, you and Paul A. can�t get him out of your mind? :-) Evelyn, I love his stride too, it matches his horsemanship. (sigh*)

Lizza, your email came back. How can I contact you?

(KJArt) [Lina] thought it was "tragic" when Ned revealed that there was no "secret" to the city Speaking of which...what to you all make of Walker's aversion to the city? Is it that no city dweller can really have roots? (KJArt) The breakup of the marriage with Ned came, I think simply because after Walker is born: "my father became spectacularly successful, and his partner died shockingly young and my mother became increasingly mad..." Let's not forget that Lina loved to drink and Ned may have withdrawn even more with some feelings of guilt at Theo's death. (Heide) "Would you please, please, please ... That line should be required for every part Colin plays! ;-D (Heide) Ironic that it is Nan who at first wants to know nothing of what is in the journal but when Walker starts to burn it, wails "Now we'll never know anything." I too found it very strange that Nan was so adamant about not reading journal. Having personally gone through lots of family papers, I can't understand this at all. Irrational. What is she afraid of finding out? (Heide) I like Greenberg's joke on us in the Pip monologue - his mother liked to get caught up in a play where you could never remember the plot of where the girl got caught in the rain and had to put on the man's bathrobe and they sort of did a little dance around each other and fell in love. Then in Act 2, Lina's coquettish line to Ned when she goes to put on a robe after getting caught in the rain, I've seen this scene before. The little dance Lina and Ned did around each other then was super . I loved that foreshadowing as well. (Lizza) You have brought it all back for me, I can see, hear and smell it all over again. I wish I could add "touch " to that list!!! Tell us your favorite parts then. Fighting the urge to reach out and touch him a mere inches away took every fiber of my being. Besides, I didn't fancy getting hauled off to jail and embarrassing all of you!! ;-) (Karen) All those writers and philosophers had to mean something. And I think they do. (Moon) They make us understand the characters. Actually, they helped me understand what the play was about. The search for truth. Each developed his own form of logic (or structure/architecture) for getting at the truth and for understanding relationships. Their individual methods and conclusions matter not, but I think it ties everything together. The one exception: La Rochefoucauld. His writings go right to the heart of this play.

Thanks Karen!!!!

(Karen) what to you all make of Walker's aversion to the city Perhaps another rejection of his father? His father (we assume) saddled him with the name Walker taken from flaneur..a wanderer through the city. And when I say "saddled", I mean that many of the connotations we find in this name are negative in the play. The saddest of all is one of the definitions of flaneur Ned gives Lina: "His life has no pattern...just traffic...and no hope-" Is it that no city dweller can really have roots? Even a weed growing through the cracks of a city sidewalk has strong roots.

Ladies, such incredible insights, I'm really enjoying this discussion, and Karen, please pass on the cliff notes, there are so many literary references in the play... (Heide) The saddest of all is one of the definitions of flaneur Ned gives Lina: "His life has no pattern...just traffic...and no hope-" But at the same time, it is what Ned would wish for someone better than himself. "I think it would be the best thing! To be this...vegabond prince..." By naming his son Walker, it's Ned's wish that his son would have the strength of character he lacks, a wanderer is never loney. So I would assume that Ned is rather loney. I do have one question, during the first act, all three characters mention food, and how hungry they are, and ask each other, "Did you ever eat?"...but somehow they never manage to eat (except when Nan munched on something from her purse), is Greenberg communicating a deeper sense of hunger here?

(Karen) what to you all make of Walker's aversion to the city WALKER: It had become-the filth of it-the chaos of it-it just happened. So I left. He's not averted to the city, but to his life. He flees. I think he actually likes big cities, flanuer that he is: WALKER: What could ever possibly happen to you on a street in Boston? You might, what, run into a cleric and repent something? Boston is only a city if you're a swan boat. I also enjoyed the running joke about the restaurant/art gallery/cigar store across the street. (Karen) You didn't think it odd that neither of the children could see any traces of a loving marriage? Both Walker and Nan are quite blase about why their parents married: WALKER: They married because by 1960 they had reached a certain age and they were the last ones left in the room. NAN: My parents married because it was 1960 and one had to and they were there. And I don't think that's a contemptible thing-for people who have reached a certain age and never found anything better. These passages come from different places in the play yet they're almost identical. (KJArt) both children refer to the marriage as something that was "settled" on ...IMO as a rationalization of why they didn't see traces of a loving marriage. (Emma) is Greenberg communicating a deeper sense of hunger here? Good point. Definitely a metaphor.

Walker: "I love the city, but it's dangerous to me. It's let me...become nothing." Even after he gives up the idea of having the house he says he'll stay in the barren apt. until he finds somethin in the country...

City, country...I don't think it makes a difference with Walker. He just keeps on running away from life. After they took Lina to the hospital post running throught the glass, he hid in the laundry room for hours. He's still trying to hide.

(Karen) ...It is Nan who at first wants to know nothing of what is in the journal. IMO I had the feeling that Nan didn't so much not want to hear what was in the journal as she was trying to get Walker to stop reading it...remember he is in a very shaky state already...no sleep for 2 nights, no food...and I really think she is worried about the effect it has/will have on Walker. Notice when he reads out some entry to her, followed by his reaction, she always addresses herself to his reaction. Walker: It was incredible. Nan: It's always incredible.. She just wanted to put off his reading it. And she was right. Note what his very last (over)reaction to its content was....

(evelyn) "Intercession, Karen J, Intercession" Touche!! (I knew it was wrong, I hoped you'd catch it!!

I might be going off on a tangent...but...here is a thought.... Act I WALKER: ...Something happens somewhere, makes a noise, the noise travels, charts the distance: The Story of a Moment... Act II (p.289)LINA :..isn�t that moment thrilling, right before it starts, and everything turns purple, and the swnings shake and the buildings ignite from the inside ?. I love that part. NED (p.294) I slept...late.....and when I woke up, it was...already raining a little. (and then comes that part about the 2 women in trench coats and the African violet plant spilling on her shoes....v. obscure) NED (p.297) The ..preposterous instinct that we are...wholly re-responsible for events...completely out of our control. (moments?) END of PLAY: LINA: Begin. NED: What? LINA: The house. Begin the house. NED: NO. LINA: I know you see it. I know you see the whole thing. Don�t you? NED: Yes. I know every moment Drawing a house with moments??? Somehow I think if we can crack the correlation between ..Rain...Moments...House... We�ll know what Greenberg is trying to allegorically tell us. Does the house symbolize Ned�s life? Made up of events beyond his control? Anyone have a clue?

(Heide) The saddest of all is one of the definitions of flaneur Ned gives Lina: "His life has no pattern...just traffic...and no hope--" But as Ned goes on to say, "Because he has no need of hope! The only thing he wants from life is...the day at hand." While that lifestyle is solitary, it is never lonely. Maybe Walker hasn't learned to appreciate what the city has to offer or maybe Ned's ideal is warped. ;-) (Heide) Even a weed growing through the cracks of a city sidewalk has strong roots. Was that meant to remind me of what needs to be done outside?? BTW, I'm putting out a contract on one of the trees in the parkway. ;-) (Emma) during the first act, all three characters mention food, and how hungry they are, and ask each other, "Did you ever eat?"...but somehow they never manage to eat (except when Nan munched on something from her purse), is Greenberg communicating a deeper sense of hunger here? Oh my!! What an interesting set of circumstances. They are constantly putting off eating by some other action. Didn't you just love Walker, who hadn't eaten in days, but had tried to order a hamburger and was intimidated by the waiter; Pip, who really wanted to get something but Walker's return and the return of guilt interrupted, and Nan who turned down the squid-tiramisu thing. Can't get much more nourishing than Pip's star fruit! (hee hee) When did Nan munch on something? (KJArt) Walker: "I love the city, but it's dangerous to me. It's let me...become nothing." In the city, he's a flaneur and he is not comfortable with it. He doesn't seem to share Ned's ideals because it makes him unhappy. I think as someone said earlier, he wants to be normal, set down roots, and have people over to his place. When he was in Tuscany, he rented a villa and he stayed put for nearly a year. (KJArt) She just wanted to put off his reading it. And she was right. Note what his very last (over)reaction to its content was.... No, I don't think so. Remember, the house for the journal - that was her offer. She didn't want him to read it at all and she didn't want to hear it. But why she put it back under the mattress. Silly woman. Walker and only Walker was meant to read it - the Princess and the Pea! ;-) (Evelyn) Does the house symbolize Ned's life? Made up of events beyond his control? I am thoroughly convinced that Greenberg is making a statement about the will of the individual and shaping one's destiny. He comes out firmly on the side of destiny (and one's genetic makeup). Poor Theo tries to make himself into something noteworthy and what happens? He dies at a very young age. Everybody else just goes with the flow and lets life happen to them. Lina: "I didn't even realize I was here! I didn't even realize I'd come to the neighborhood. It was not my intention." Ned: "It was the same as you...I...d-didn't come home right away. I walked out of my way because it was all so...pleasant, the day. I felt like a...flaneur." Maureen, initially tried to make something of herself. "she arrived with a carefully though-out plan to be amazing at something." But as fate would have it, nothing happened until she had given up on the plan and sat on a park bench in Washington Square Park, where she ran into an identical individual. The happiest and most normal person in the entire play is Pip. He has no great aspirations. He just lets life happen to him and he enjoys it. "Life is good."

Great and glorious summing-up, Karen!! Your clarity awes me!! (Really...I'm not pulling a "Walker", here!) Fantastic. Since we can no longer address the ultimate meaning of the entire piece, I guess we'll have to go back to nit-picking details... Building the house with moments...(Ned): I know every moment But didn't Ned earlier see with "astonishing clarity" that "the whole thing will blow up in our faces..." Initially, Lina's "Genius" fate had seemed to win out over Ned's "Guilt" fate. His envisionment of collapse, poverty, abandonment--this was not his (or Lina's) immediate fate. So how can he see "every moment" of the house? Evelyn: why "St. Louis??" AND do you think he would purposely trip in a movie scene? YES!!!

(KJArt) (Really...I'm not pulling a "Walker", here!) Then, should I "publish"?? (hee hee) (KJArt) Since we can no longer address the ultimate meaning of the entire piece Why? There's more. We can talk about the "legacy" from one's parents. (KJArt) I guess we'll have to go back to nit-picking details... I'm not averse to that; have degree in nit-pickology. ;-D Need to get back to thinking about the "house built with moments" and the "guilt/genius" views on life.

Evelyn: why "St. Louis??" "I read somewhere"...in an interview that he learned that swagger when he attended an inner city (sounded like) grade school in st. Louis...to mask the fear he had of some tough boys. AND do you think he would purposely trip in a movie scene? YES!!! Hardly cool.

(KJArt) Since we can no longer address the ultimate meaning of the entire piece Why? Giving Up? I'm not.I 'm not always right...but we seem to build on each other's ideas...makes for spirited discussion,which I like:-)

KJ, couldn't let you have all the epiphanies! Sorry, just doing a Joycean riff here. ;-p Haven't felt like researching the Reynolds comment. What did he have to say about "talent being divided into genius and taste." I know he set the standard for what was tasteful, but like everything, Greenberg must mean more. Is it ironic in some way? Was the division of work meaningless because talent should not be bound by taste??

KJArt, don't abandon us now, we still have lots to do. We should also dwell on La Rochefoucauld, and the trio of Act I and Act II. At some point, we should invite Greenberg to join us. He should receive the whole discussion and then fill in the blanks (if we will leave any;-) How difficult could it be to reach him? Karen? Is it still running in Chicago? Perhaps the manager there can help with a contact in NY (I assume he leaves in NY). Evelyn, I can't believe his strut is something he copied(say he what he will), he was born with it.

(I assume he leaves in NY). That should be lives, unless, Jung is trying to tell us something. Greenberg the flaneur. :-D

Not bad, ladies, a very interesting discussion. I would wish you could get Greenberg to join, or at least explain himself. I'm still in the dark as to the essence of the play, but then the discussion still continues. :-) From the very beginning when I read the first pages of the play: the talking about architecture and liquid light, and about Walker just walking away for a year, and him being so isolated in the big city and elsewhere, and Ned and Lina barely understanding each other....... I can't help but imagine very intensely Edward Hoppers pictures. I did a search for Hopper pics, and it is not just one picture, but the whole atmosphere. Buildings in changing "liquid" light, and people alone or together, but always st angely unconnected, isolated. That would be one of the questions I would ask Greenberg: if he had Hopper in mind when he wrote 3DOR. http://firth.com/donmar/morn_sun_sm.jpg http://firth.com/donmar/room_sea_small.jpg http://firth.com/donmar/chair_car_sm.jpg And finally, 6 weeks too late, I can of a good question to ask CF: What HE thinks the play is about! ;-). Too late! And I wouldn't get it out anyway.

Ok, sorry, I have violated the golden rule: Never try to post a link when you are awfully tired......

Thanks Renate! Visuals are always helpful. Such angst and desolation. Resnais's film comes to mind (scripted by Alain Robbe-Grillet), "L'�nn� Derni�re � Marienbas." I wonder if Greenberg has seen it.

Karen; I have no intention of abandoning such a promising project. I suppose I must confess that: Since we can no longer address the ultimate meaning of the entire piece.. WAS at least a partial "Walker"...Its just that you did such an impressive job in your summing-up of where Greenberg was going, it seemed like the last word on the subject...;-) You MUST publish, by all means!! You know, I really loved W's description of trying to get a hamburger, too. ...but it didn't work out.... hee,hee ;-) That response being, to him "really annihilating...I had to leave,"just breaks me up every I read it!! (Evelyn) Hardly cool. i.e. tripping on purpose. I noticed several times when he did it in Valmont, just to give the impression that he was something of a clutz. Remember when he dove off the back of the boat to save his man, but tripped on the edge for a most ungraceful entry into the water?...:-) On purpose, I say!! (Heide) ...please, please, please..." Instant connection with (drool) Paul! I just hope CF didn't deliver the line in the same tone, though...(not being there, I wouldn't know). And I didn't catch that play-within-a-play reference at all! (I think I needed to see that one!) Thanks! ;-)

--Moon-- Our minds must work alike...I was just thinking this afternoon about how to find out where Richard Greenberg could be reached. It was for the mere purpose of a fan letter, but your idea is better! **Thanks for the Hoppers, Renate!**

Two nits I'd like picked-at: 1) According to Nan, her husband, Harry, "always says the right thing..." When Pip appeared to take slight umbrage at this (as implying he didn't), Nan said, He's...what you would be if I hadn't met you until I was 25." What do you think she meant by this? that he'd literally would be a different sort of person, or that he would be different in her eyes, or what?? 2) When Nan asked Walker whether he was, in fact, in love with Pip, and he answered: Oh, who knows? You know he's such a dunce, I envied him. I think he was being quite honest about the envy, but what did he mean, do you think? And an extra that has been haunting me for several days; When all is said and done, how do you think Ned REALLY felt about his son Walker?

Found this synopsis on the web for a biography written recently about Sir Joshua Reynolds. According to this, Greenberg's tongue is firmly in cheek again: "That Sir Joshua Reynolds (1723-1792) became the most fashionable painter of his time was not simply due to his artistic gifts or good fortune. The art of pleasing, Richard Wendorf contends, was as much a part of Reynolds's success-- in his life and in his work--as the art of painting." "At the heart of Wendorf's text is an investigation of how Reynolds shaped his own persona in order to accommodate others and guarantee his own continued professional advancement. The key word, and one which his contemporaries used in describing him, is 'complaisance'...Reynolds could, when he wished, charm the birds from the trees." http://www.hup.harvard.edu/S98Books/S98Catalog/sir_joshua_reynolds.html Will have to add this to my Cliff Notes! Any other addition? This is an evolving piece... ;-)

Just added to the Cliff Notes, Karen, good idea. I also think we should discuss Walker's sexuality as KJArt pointed out, it was a queer remark by Nan. (OK, pun intended).

Earlier, Walker implied the possobility that Ned and Theo might have been lovers, (because of the single mattress), to which Nan replied sarcastically: "Not everyone is as sexually fluent as you, Walker--our loss, perhaps, but the case;..."

FYI, there are pictures of the 3DOR set from the Donmar at Murph's site, including the cast taking their bows. Go to it: http://www.geocities.com/~murphyat65/daysrain.html

(Evelyn) Building the house with moments... (KJArt) But didn't Ned earlier see with "astonishing clarity" that "the whole thing will blow up in our faces..." His envisionment of collapse, poverty, abandonment--this was not his (or Lina's) immediate fate. So how can he see "every moment" of the house? I do see the house as Ned; it being built on moments of his life, although not necessarily his future. (He would need a "crystal ball.") Interesting that Ned does see his life blowing up, but maybe it too is not entirely clear. He doesn't foresee that it will be personal and not professional destruction. His losses are of a more personal nature, i.e., relationships (Lina, Theo and his children). These did occur shortly thereafter. Theo died six years later and Lina must have well on her way to... Nothing is "crystal" clear in this play. Can't be. ;-) (Moon) At some point, we should invite Greenberg to join us. He should receive the whole discussion and then fill in the blanks (if we will leave any;-) I would love to have the blanks filled in; these things nag at me and I can't let them go. Like: Why is there not a poem named Randolph? ;-) (Moon) How difficult could it be to reach him? Karen? Is it still running in Chicago? Perhaps the manager there can help with a contact in NY (I assume he leaves in NY). No, it's not running here, but I believe it is supposed to open in Boston or has??? Greenberg must have a literary agent. The publisher would know. (Renate) I can't help but imagine very intensely Edward Hoppers pictures...Buildings in changing "liquid" light, and people alone or together, but always strangely unconnected, isolated. Excellent choice of pictures, Renate, but where is "Nighthawks"? Walker stopped there for a cup of coffee. ;-) Cities are usually portrayed as isolating. Where better to get lost (or to hide, Eileen) than in a big city? (KJArt) I noticed several times when he did it in Valmont, just to give the impression that he was something of a clutz...On purpose, I say!! Of course, it was on purpose. Cecile did some tripping as well. I remember Kirsten listed all the tripping scenes in Valmont in our film discussion (check the archive on firth.com). ODB is no klutz! :-) (Heide) ...please, please, please... (KJArt) I just hope CF didn't deliver the line in the same tone, though Actually yes (correct me if I'm wrong, ladies). Differences: (1) wasn't as loud and (2) head was not stuck out of a window. Who among the Firth lovers in the audience did not experience a little tingle when they heard that? (KJArt) Harry, "always says the right thing..." When Pip appeared to take slight umbrage at this...Nan said, He's...what you would be if I hadn't met you until I was 25." What do you think she meant by this? that he'd literally would be a different sort of person, or that he would be different in her eyes, or what?? The latter I think. Nan must be admitting that she couldn't commit to anything or anybody before that age or that's when she finally got her act together. (Criticism coming) Greenberg appears to be another male author who relegates women to lesser roles and simply cannot draw them as equally interesting characters. Nan is a case in point. She is so incompletely drawn that I wonder if any actress can play that role well and not fade into the scenery? (btw, EMcG has not been let off the hook.) (KJArt ) "Oh, who knows? You know he's such a dunce, I envied him." I think he was being quite honest about the envy, but what did he mean, do you think? Walker was probably envious of Pip being normal and happy. Then, Pip appears to have had a fairly normal mother and Walker could have been envious of that. (KJArt) When all is said and done, how do you think Ned REALLY felt about his son Walker? He loved him and gave him the wherewithal to fulfil his own dreams. Shame that Ned couldn't see how unhappy that made Walker. ****** Still have a few more points (from previous posts) to cover, but does anyone remember how Colin (Ned) and EMcG (Lina) used their hands to describe the Guilt and Genius thing? I can remember the Chicago one very distinctly and remember thinking it worked better, but now can't imagine what was done in London. Other London Ladies...

(Renate) I can't help but imagine very intensely Edward Hoppers pictures. I did a search for Hopper pics Did you, Renate? He is one of my favourite painters of this century! You must tell me more about your work on him. (Renate)...the whole atmosphere. Buildings in changing "liquid" light, and people alone or together, but always strangely unconnected, isolated. Yes, very anguishing. What a marvelous insight! (KJArt)...He's...what you would be if I hadn't met you until I was 25." What do you think she meant by this? that he'd literally would be a different sort of person, or that he would be different in her eyes, or what?? I think she means that Pip has turned out to be the same kind of person as her husband, but that she and Pip had had their chance at 18, (when either he wasn't like that yet or she hadn't appreciated him as such at that age); if they had met at 25, they might have a relashionship even now. (KJArt)When Nan asked Walker whether he was, in fact, in love with Pip, and he answered: Oh, who knows? You know he's such a dunce, I envied him. I think he was being quite honest about the envy, but what did he mean, do you think? Probably that he admired Pip in a way, and that now he cannot tell whether at the time it was love or the admiration. (KJArt) When all is said and done, how do you think Ned REALLY felt about his son Walker? I've wondered about that too. We can only speculate. I think he probably admired his son, who had become what *he* would have liked to be. But he couldn't get close, and I don't think he really tried. He must have thought that Walker was "strong" and didn't need an intimacy that didn't come naturally between them. But we know Walker really wasn't that way, and that his father's remoteness caused him pain.

(KJArt) I noticed several times when he did it in Valmont, just to give the impression that he was something of a clutz...On purpose, I say!! (Karen)Of course, it was on purpose. Of course it was! Had it been an accident, they would have done another take. (Karen)The latter I think. Nan must be admitting that she couldn't commit to anything or anybody before that age or that's when she finally got her act together. We seem to agree on this point, then.

(KJArt) When all is said and done, how do you think Ned REALLY felt about his son Walker? ) He probably ignored him...didn't know how to relate to him as a child. I don't think he hated his son...but Walker must have grown up thinking so. Pain all over the place . What makes anyone think that Ned admired Walker? The guy was never around...was off in Boston or Peru.....was a flaneur.

Help!! My e-mail seems to be blocked. I think the account got overloaded wityh K's. They tell me I should delete some messages to commence use (I agree), but since access is being blocked, I can't get in to delete anything!! Anybody have any suggestions?

Weren't there any warnings that your mailbox was approaching its limit? That happened to me after the play, when all those pictures were being emailed around. Wait for a while. It might be a problem at their end. Happens too often with Hotmail (Wednesday being a recent example when my messages all disappeared for hours and when they returned had multiplied and were not where they should be.) Anyway, if the problem persists. Open up a new account at Yahoo and try to communicate with the tech people through it.

Karen, can you send email to anyone there at Yahoo who could help you? I do not use it and I think I am the only one awake now, but it might be worth a try to go into Yahoo and click on email like you were going to sign up for some. I have been very good about not clogging you up with postings. Will hunt around tosee what I can find out

Even my private ISP jams up as it did this morning. My son was sending lots of digital photos he took on a recent trip. I ended up with 2 or 3 of most of them, and 5 of one! It took forever to unjam it! But it does eventually! I have never heard of your using up all the space without their telling you! Try again tomorrow, and use The Karen's wise advice about opening up another Email box and writing from there to the people at Yahoo. TK, you are not in any way related to The Donald =P

(Karen), Nothing is "crystal" clear in this play. Can't be. ;-) No, it's all liquid light. Seeing through prisms. The oldest examples of this use in are churches. When the sun shines through the many colored glasses, prisms reflect all over, the feeling is quite surreal and beautiful. You swim in the light. My DH is back, more later.

(Evelyn) Does the house symbolize Ned's life? Made up of events beyond his control? (Karen) I am thoroughly convinced that Greenberg is making a statement about the will of the individual and shaping one's destiny. He comes out firmly on the side of destiny (and one's genetic makeup). Poor Theo tries to make himself into something noteworthy and what happens? He dies at a very young age. Everybody else just goes with the flow and lets life happen to them. This is from a couple of days ago but I wanted to comment before more time goes by. I agree with your conclusion, Karen. That's one of the statements. Another more concrete theme is legacy, or how family dysfunction perpetuates itself from one generation to the next. One of the obvious conclusions one makes at the end of the play is how Walker completely misunderstood his father: WALKER: Reconstruct along with me a moment. You are this young man. Ambitious, of course-- what architect isn't ambitious? And it's that moment when you're so bursting with feeling that people aren't enough, your art isn't enough, you need something else, some other way to let out everything that's in you. You buy this notebook, this volume into which you can pour your most secret, your deepest and illicit passions. You bring it home, commence--the first sacred jottings-the feelings you couldn't contain: "April 3rd to April Sth: Three days of rain." A weather report. A fucking weather report! (Beat. He quiets down) You know, the thing is with people who never talk, the thing is you always suppose they're harboring some enormous secret. But, just possibly, the secret is, they have absolutely nothing to say. And we come to know the opposite to be true in Act II (underscored by the fact that it's the last act even though chronologically it should have been the first, but that would have ruined the effect). What do you think? The subject ties into the Walker/Ned relationship discussion. How about Lina/Nan? LINA: Well...one child, at least. One beautiful little girl. Someone precious I can drink with.

Thanks for the help--and sympathy. I went down to the community college computer labs and they got me in fine--no overload--probably just the loval ISP for the Library (the CC has no ISP to foul up!!!) Anyway, thanks.

(Evelyn)...Pain all over the place. Agreed...but Ned must have been aware that Walker was interested enough in architecture to study it. (Indeed, I think that's why Nan erupted with, "It was wicked.".) Did she believe that denying Walker the house was done out of spite? Was it? Did Ned feel neglected and resent it? Or was he contentedly anti-social? Did he avoid contact with the grandchildren, too? (Poor Nan!) (Gi)...Pip has turned out to be the same kind of person as her husband,... "He [is]...what you would be" doesn't seem to me to be an equivalancy...Although I suppose you could extend that to an understood: "He [is][to me?]...what you would be [to me?]" Not blatantly apparent, alas!

(KJart)Did Ned feel neglected and resent it? Or was he contentedly anti-social? Did he avoid contactwith the grandchildren, too? (Glad you got your email problems settled....) Pip thinks that Ned was neglected....p.264..."He was a pretty lonely man the last few years. I don't think he was doing that much work on his own....partners buzzing around him...twiddling his thumbs. I thought it was my responsibility. You were always flittering off ...." Ned,however, was anti-social...though he did make cities of Tinker Toys for the children...while "he sat in a Modern Chair ...flipping silently through an art book" Walker never had a chance to be normal....by genetic cause or environment.

Taking what some of you are saying and just thinking aloud with no specific purpose in mind.... Does Ned appear to be anti-social as a young man? I mean any more so than a man who is shy and has the added burden of stuttering? To me he appears a someone on the edge looking in but not daring to join though he'd like to. I think he admires Theo's gregariousness...considers him a more valued member of the team. Do you think he became even more withdrawn as he grew older (secluding himself inside his shell as his wife grew madder) so the Ned his children knew was not the same Ned we see in Act 2? Wo ld they have had more sympathy for that younger Ned or would they have misunderstood him too? Ned's journal entries give away nothing. Why can't he use this to speak what he can't say out loud? (Because then Greenberg wouldn't have a play.) You have to admit, his entries are weird. What does this say of Ned's state of mind? I'd suppose it's that he can't give outlet to his emotions or else they'll overwhelm him as we see when Theo is baiting him and he's shaking and gasping for air. He's conditioned to repressing them when at all possible.

(Heide)Do you think he became even more withdrawn as he grew older (secluding himself inside his shell as his wife grew madder) so the Ned his children knew was not the same Ned we see in Act 2? Probably right. (Heide)Ned's journal entries give away nothing. Why can't he use this to speak what he can't say out loud? You have to admit, his entries are weird. Maybe he's too shy or private to elaborate. Journals (and diaries...) can be found and read. I use photography sometimes the way Ned used his journal entries, as topics to remind me of events, not as complete reposts of these.

( Heide)...You have to admit, his entries are weird. Ned was a man of few words....but stutterers measure their words carefully...(doesn't he say that somewhere?...he can't waste words). Nothing much has been said about Ned's stuttering. Surely, as a child he must have suffered at the hands of his peers. NED: ( to Theo) " I l-left home to get away from people who have no.....people who have no g-grace, people who are randomly cruel and y-you are....." He never elaborates who these people are...parents? friends? But they caused that pain Stuttering is a neurological disorder....why did Greenberg create a character that stuttered?

(Karen), Nothing is "crystal" clear in this play. Can't be. ;-) (Moon), No, it's all liquid light. Seeing through prisms. The oldest examples of this use in are churches. When the sun shines through the many colored glasses, prisms reflect all over, the feeling is quite surreal and beautiful. You swim in the light. The house does reflect upon the characters, in this liquid light you either sink or swim. Ned, Nan, Pip and Walker swim, they survive. Lina and Theo sink. The house is "the best one for living in..." as Nan says. The quality that it does not capture is the "frozen music."

(Evelyn), Ned,however, was anti-social...though he did make cities of Tinker Toys for the children...while "he sat in a Modern Chair ...flipping silently through an art book" LOL! Don't you just love that vision? Walker lost it and triggered something in his mother that made her start her flight and end up through the glass facade. He followed her all the way. Maybe he was trying to save her before it was too late. But "before the blood started she looked like something crystal." It was too late, he could no longer save her. He knew because he wss like her. We are told repeatedly. Walker has a guilty feeling of not being able to save his mother and being the cause of her break-down. He is a flaneur because it is a curse to settle down. Ned knows this well, and, decides to leave the house to Pip. He is trying to save his son and indirectly free himself of the curse that has been the house and all it represents.

But did Ned do it for love?

(Moon).... He(Walker) knew because he was like her. We are told repeatedly. Walker has a guilty feeling of not being able to save his mother I'm with you here.Nan tells him he's like his mother "on a good day". ....and being the cause of her break-down. Don't remember any dialogue that relates to this part though. He is a flaneur because it is a curse to settle down. At least Ned thought so...but Walker wanted to. (I bet he wanted to dump that name too!) Ned knows this well, and, decides to leave the house to Pip. He is trying to save his son and indirectly free himself of the curse that has been the house and all it represents. Lots to think about here, Moon. You might be on to something. Thanks.

It is because of his guilty feeling of not being able to save his mother that he feels that he is responsible fro her break-down which is triggered by Walker,"And I lost it. I mean it was uncontrollable. Anyway this triggered something in my mother and she just dashed out of there." He pursued her but couldn't catch her. (Thus his guilty feeling comes out because he couldn't catch her/couldn't save her).

Moon, I'm afraid I can't follow you all the way on this one. The guilt feeling Walker has about his mother may be implied by the words, but--other than the mention of this triggering behavior-- Walker only describes her as more-or-less-mad. Nor does he seem to feel any responsibility...her behavior was due solely to her madness (although "an amphetomine may have been involved"...) Those who attended the play: Was there any nuance placed on any of Walker's references to imply guilt? I only read it, but the first reaction would have horror and trauma...he went and hid in the laundry room for the next ten hours...from a sense of helplessness? Probably. but not, I think of responsibility. And he has been running and hiding ever since, because part of the trauma was--for this eight-year-old-boy--was the realization that he had no one to run to. Not his mother, certainly. Not his uncommunicative father. His sister is much his own age, so does not have much more of a clue about things than he does. But you'll notice that when he runs away later in life, he does it so that she must come and look for him...the only sign in this world that anybody cares about him. I suspect that Pip joined in the search as they got older, but Walker is still a man with no one to run to, not really. He is a burden on Nan, and he knows he is a burden. He is still looking for that ideal place to hide--but not too ideal--or Nan won't be able to find him.

(Evelyn) He probably ignored him...didn't know how to relate to him as a child. I don't think he hated his son...but Walker must have grown up thinking so. Yes, Ned and Walker share that inherited trait--the inability to relate to children--continuing the saga of Ned's poor relationship with his parents. Interesting that Ned's parents used money to bridge that "guilt span" just as Ned does for Walker, by giving him the money instead of the house. No one learns in this family. (KJArt) Did Ned feel neglected and resent it? Or was he contentedly anti-social? Did he avoid contact with the grandchildren, too? (Poor Nan!) Ned probably withdrew as Lina's madness progressed. She was the one who drew him out and, if she wasn't there, then he became the silent one again. (KJArt) "It was wicked."...Did she [Nan] believe that denying Walker the house was done out of spite? Was it? Apparently. Janeway House was Ned's most important legacy and he didn't bequeath it to his children. What else would people think? But unfortunately, it is consistent with Ned's modus operandi. Like his journal scribbles, he didn't care what others understood. He knew what it meant and that's all that mattered to him. (Evelyn) Walker never had a chance to be normal....by genetic cause or environment. Excellent point. (Heide) Ned's journal entries give away nothing. Why can't he use this to speak what he can't say out loud?...What does this say of Ned's state of mind? Geniuses often use a form of shorthand for their ideas. As an architect, it makes sense that Ned wouldn't rely on words. He used his art. With Janeway House, even Walker knew implicitly that "it could only have been designed by someone who was happy." (Moon) Ned...is trying to save his son and indirectly free himself of the curse that has been the house and all it represents. I can't agree with the concept of the house and all it represents being a curse. The house was the tangible result of the best three days of his life. If the house were a curse that caused Lina's madness and Theo's loss of self, why would he give it to Pip? He got along fine with Pip. If it were a curse, he would have given it to a charity, taken it out of the lives of all he care for. (Moon) But did Ned do it for love? Yes, but IMO Ned's mistake was in thinking that Walker would be happy pursuing the life he himself wanted--that of a flaneur. Walker is a combination of both Ned and Lina. He isn't the perfect "flaneur-to-be" because he has inherited traits from Lina, which make that impossible. (KJArt) Was there any nuance placed on any of Walker's references to imply guilt? Colin spoke matter-of-factly about the mother's madness, with the line about the amphetamines tossed off very casually. (KJArt) But you'll notice that when he runs away later in life, he does it so that she must come and look for him...the only sign in this world that anybody cares about him Nan is his substitute mother image even though she's only two years older than he. Scares him into returning when she hasn't found him.

(Karen) Geniuses often use a form of shorthand for their ideas. As an architect, it makes sense that Ned wouldn't rely on words. That's the best explanation I could imagine for Ned's cryptic journal entries but I'm still not satisfied. Did he use his journal for his ideas? What ideas? "Theo is dying." "Theo is dying" "Theo is dead". We don't really know what else was in it other than what Walker read to us. If he doesn't rely on words, why use a journal - a diary for boys. (Karen) I can't agree with the concept of the house and all it represents being a curse. The house was the tangible result of the best three days of his life. Agree with Karen. And how well Colin conveyed that happiness. You could see his adoration of Lina. It was wonderful. Is the house the "beginning of error"? Before he begins he says, "Things are so much better before they actually start." Then he makes his first mark. "The beginning...of error." Speaks of his relationship with Lina too. The beginning of error. Liked what Lina said though, "Make a home."

(Heide) (Walker)...."Things are so much better before they actually start." Then he makes his first mark. Lina says that too: Isn't that moment thrilling, right before it starts (rain) and everything turns purple and the awnings shake and the buildings ignite from the inside? I love that part. That is so true with many events and experiences...that split second before a kiss!!:-)

( KJArt), Walker only describes her as more-or-less-mad. Nor does he seem to feel any responsibility...her behavior was due solely to her madness (although "an amphetomine may have been involved"...) This is his adult analytical response, and probably repeating something he has heard over the years. but the first reaction would have horror and trauma...he went and hid in the laundry room for the next ten hours...from a sense of helplessness? Probably. but not, I think of responsibility. He is a small boy who has just experience a major traumatic experience which was triggered by his �losing it.� A child that age would think it was his fault. That feeling of guilt stayed with him. And he has been running and hiding ever since, because part of the trauma was--for this eight-year-old-boy--was the realization that he had no one to run to. Agreed. (Karen), I can't agree with the concept of the house and all it represents being a curse. The house was the tangible result of the best three days of his life. If the house were a curse that caused Lina's madness and Theo's loss of self, why would he give it to Pip? He got along fine with Pip. If it were a curse, he would have given it to a charity, taken it out of the lives of all he care for. They might have been the only three best days of his life. It is a curse because of the unhappy turn of events. Theo dead, Lina mad, his having to take care of two small children when he didn�t like children or want them in the first place. The house for a manqu� flaneur is a holding block, a prison, a curse. He gives it to Pip because he has a different outlook on life. The house would not be a prison for Pip and Ned felt that it ould be for Walker. (Moon) But did Ned do it for love? (Karen), Yes, but IMO Ned's mistake was in thinking that Walker would be happy pursuing the life he himself wanted--that of a flaneur. Walker is a combination of both Ned and Lina. He isn't the perfect "flaneur-to-be" because he has inherited traits from Lina, which make that impossible. That was Ned�s mistake. But there always was a problem communicating in that family. Ned always spared his words, we see that in the journal.

I can remember the first feedback from those who had actually seen the play performed. Almost all expressed how moved they were by (and were in sympathy with) the character Ned. Looking back over these analytical remarks, I find it interesting that--as we dig deeper into the implications of this play--the mood seems to have shifted... Walker was the first character we were introduced to...he was funny but obnoxious,too, caustic, opinionated, bitter. Then Nan trying anxiously to be nuturing but split between her brother's, her family's and her friend's needs. We next met Pip, good-natured, seemingly simplistic, even enthusiastic at times. The events in Act I changed how they interpreted their past lives, and how, I think, they see their futures. Act II introduces us to Theo--ambitious, brash, an extrovert. He's arguing with his girlfriend Lina (who's just messed up an important interview). She seems sly and definitely vociferous. These two are bounced off Ned...painfully shy, with difficulty in communicating to others, but also bothered by this ongoing argument between the other two. By the end of this act, Theo's ambitions have been, if not thwarted, then greatly altered as is his self-image. Lina's allegience has been switched to Ned, because he's such "a nice man", and Ned has embarked on a new vision of what his future could be. If we go by personality, Walker has to be the least sympathetic of these characters (with Theo, perhaps a close second). We watch him manipulate, humiliate, and control his friends, who, nevertheless, seem to tolerate this behavior because "He's in so much pain". Well, is it just me, but I sense a shift as these discussions have progressed to a greater and greater sympathy for Walker; and I'm trying to figure out why we do we seem to sympathize with such an unsympathic character? We have seen, I think, that he IS in so much pain, has always been, and this is his legacy for the future. Theo loses Lina and a piece of his self-esteem, but he wanders off, gains Maureen (who seems to be a NICE woman) and obviously his ego can't be that bruised because he's still i the firm Wexler and Janeway when he dies. Lina's been confused and insecure about Theo, but she gains Ned, marriage and children, just as she wanted. Ned, who IS terribly sympathetic throughout the second act, gains love, inspiration and ultimately will not lose his friend Theo after all. Pip was pretty much happy with his life to begin with and not much about that changes...he gains an inheritance of a very valuable house and still seems to be in good books with both Nan and his travelling mother (st ll looking for another "wet guy"). Nan's been torn up a bit, I think, by events, but she has her friends and family who she obviously enjoys and is proud of...they are still there to provide moral support. Walker loses what he expected to gain, loses even his sense of value he had for it and is given nothing to replace it or compensate for it. Where is his "Lina"?. Where is his "family about him"?, his "Wexler and Janeway" (or his "Butte"!!!) Where is his future? We percieve his pain, his inability to change much of it or move beyond it. In the end, it is Walker we sympathize with most..

I understand Walker the most but I don't sympathize with him. You have some very good points, KJArt.

Thank you, KJArt for your perceptive comments...and I mostly agree with you...we certainly dissected all of them pretty thoroughly. (KJArt)In the end, it is Walker we sympathize with most.. I understand where "Walker is coming from"...but I don't sympathize with him either....And in a way, he is content too...at the end. There is closure to his unresolved feelings. (His ritual at the cemetery...burning the Journal..) I personally subscribe to: "You- play- with -the- cards- you're -dealt" philosophy. And of course, even if poor Ned was disappointed later in life....he still had those Three Days of Rain!! Anyway, that's MO.

Just dropped by for a massive fix of 3DOR, it is wonderful to read everything you have all written.

It has certainly illuminated much more of the play, I wish I had time to join in but if I stopped to comment on the "comments" ,I would still Be here when the rerun starts!!! Thanks again Moon , I owe you an apology re an email I did promise- bear with me!

Hi all, I m writing from a small unknown tabacchi shop in a hidden street of Volterra, Tuscany ..... I managed to excape the wilderness to join the civilized world for half an hour. No finds in antique shops yet :-) hope all is well with you all.

That is really amazing Renate, in wonderful Volterra with all its Etruscan trasures, a place off the beaten track, you found a Tabaccheria with Internect access!!! Sending a big greeting back to you. If you're serious about antique finds, I recommend Lucca. We will want a full report on your return.

Excuse the spelling please, I was in a rush.

(Heide) Did he use his journal for his ideas? What ideas?...If he doesn't rely on words, why use a journal - a diary for boys. Not relying on words doesn't mean to me that he doesn't use them. He uses them sparingly, makes each one count, consistent with Evelyn's earlier comment about stutterers. Ned might have begun the journal because he had something in his life he wanted to record and replay in his own mind. It meant something to him for all time. He made the comment about going to architecture school "to kill time." That was his life before Lina, he was a demiflaneur. Now, he desired some permanent record of his own existence, even if it was cryptic to the outside world. (Heide) Is the house the "beginning of error"? Speaks of his relationship with Lina too. The beginning of error. The BIG question, isn't it of this play? What is the "beginning of error"? Given the circularity of the play, it would have to refer to all the erroneous conclusions the children will form about their parents. But on another level, it would touch on Ned's life again. As KJ asked earlier, if Ned could see "every moment" of the house with "astonishing clarity," why did he go forward with Lina (the beginning of error)? Simple as it sounds, why not? He was so happy. His fate be damned. (Moon) The house for a manqu� flaneur is a holding block, a prison, a curse. He gives it to Pip because he has a different outlook on life. The house would not be a prison for Pip and Ned felt that it would be for Walker. Love the term manqu� flaneur, but I still don't think Ned viewed the house as a curse. Ned wanted to ensure that Walker could live the life of a flaneur and all that required was sufficient means; a house has permanence and causes one to set down one's roots. Walker had all that was necessary: "most of my money is in traveler's checks." (KJArt) I find it interesting that--as we dig deeper into the implications of this play--the mood seems to have shifted... Well we have uncovered new aspects to these characters through the give and take of our discussion. So unless one is a stubborn donkey (to put it nicely), initial impressions are bound to change as new facts are brought to light, new facts contingent on an understanding in some case of the cultural/literary references. KJ, I thought your synopsis was great and I agree with most all. Am calling the university presses as we speak!! *You must publish* ;-) (KJArt) I'm trying to figure out why we do we seem to sympathize with such an unsympathetic character? I enjoyed the Walker character from the beginning, but then again I love sarcastic, self-centered jerks! ;-) It also didn't hurt that Colin looked pretty damn good as Walker. But I digress... We the audience/readers are "normal" or "average" human beings like Pip (not geniuses or connoisseurs) , so we fall into the category of feeling sorry for Walker "because he is in so much pain." We are sympathetic to the bad cards he's been dealt (Evelyn's metaphor) by design (the environment in which he was raised) and by life (genetics). Poor baby didn't have a chance. While Walker denied feeling his father didn't love him, it is apparent to me that it was central to his character. Why else would he eed to reconcile Ned's final bequest? ******* What do you think of Greenberg's use of architecture and marriage as structural elements? Janeway House survived but the Janeway's Home did not.

...consistent with Evelyn's earlier comment about stutterers. I dated a stutterer in college. It's frustrating....conversations tend to be one-way. One feels sorry for them...they are somewhwat anti-social. And then one day one realizes that one is confusing pity for love. We don't see many stutterers today...speech therapists pick them up early in school. ***** (Karen)What do you think of Greenberg's use of architecture and marriage as structural elements?Janeway House survived but the Janeway's Home did not. Well, in this case it is a little unfair to compare the two...the house was built with better foundations than the Janeway marriage...Hey, these two made Paul Ashford's marriage look good!!

(heide)...If [Ned] doesn't rely on words, why use a journal...a diary for boys. As I remember, Gi pretty much had the handle on that one but nobody noticed!;-) His first entry...3 Days of Rain..."I'll know what it means..." As Karen noted, he wants to record and replay in his own head. Gi uses photos for the same thing....Ever notice how totally disinterested we usually are to other people's photo collections, but how fascinating our own are to us? That is because most of the images trigger ric memories in our heads--often of things, incidents, or people not even in the photograph. We use them as cues to our own rich memory, whereas they mean little to others beyond the surface image. Ned's "journal" is probably a series of cues. He is probably as secretive of his thoughts as he is with his words...he wouldn't want the journal to be found and reveal all...HE'LL know what it means...no one else needs to...and he can use it to replay his memories or remind him of events.

(Karen) What is the "beginning of error"? Good question. I'm sorry I don't have the manuscript with me, but I seem to recall something Ned said earlier as he was describing his horrible visions...Something to the effect that if he MINDED total failure or catastrophe then he wouldn't be part of this project, but evidently he didn't mind...he seemed very fatalistic about it. Maybe that's where the "beginning of error" remark came from...his belief that he would get nothing, didn't deserve anything and failure was inevitable to him. He is doing this for Lina, but I do not think he has turned suddenly into an optimist because of her...he's just willing to go with the flow (and the flow is always downhill, isn't it?)

Sorry about the multiple entries, but there are so many ideas in all different directions and my thoughts are easily fragmented...(as most of you must have noticed by now...) ;-) (Karen)" While Walker denied feeling his father didn't love him, it is apparent to me that it was central to his character. Who was it that said that the opposite of love is not hate but apathy? Hate at least acknowledges someone's existence...apathy wipes it out. I think the most affective characteristic of Walker is his almost plaintive need to be found by Nan...it reaffirms his existence and worth. (Karen) Janeway House survived but the Janeway Home did not. You know, it has just occurred to me that there is no evidence whatsoever that Ned or his immediate family ever actually lived in Janeway house. It was built as his parents' residence and they moved into it when it was finished...When Lina had her breakdown, they were living in some large apartment at the top of a skyscraper that Ned had designed. Did anybody ever see any clue that Ned and family had ever lived in Janeway House? (And if not, why would it be interpreted as a curse?). When Lina told him to "build a home", it was a home for somebody else! Maybe Ned's major "error" was that he never paused long enough to "build a home" for his own family...

No, there isn't any mention that Ned and family lived in Janeway House. However, I didn't mean to imply that they did. I meant any *home* for the Ned Janeways and a "home" is anywhere you hang your hat as the old song goes. It's not that prism (prison) place on Long Island. I don't view it as a curse either.

(Moon), The house for a manqu� flaneur is a holding block, a prison, a curse. Regardless of the fact of whether they lived there or not as a family, I assume that Ned was living there at the time of his death. The house also represents the beginning of the end to Ned the manqu� flaneur, because without it, there would not have been the Architectural firm of Janeway/Wexler and all it�s subsequent successes which blocked Ned�s true persona, cursing him to a life not of his choice but chosen for him first by his grandparents who put up the money and second by Lina who got him started n the drawings, something that the �talented� Theo was supposed to do not him. When one goes against one�s true nature, it will not fare well. Call me superstitious, but I truly believe that a place be it a home or business can give off good or bad vibrations, and these vibrations reflect the state of mind of the people that live and work there. The Orientals call it Feng-Shui.

Ibsen was a believer in freedom of will, but concerned with how heredity and environment shape a man's destiny. I find Greenberg very influenced by Ibsen.

(Karen)*You must publish*;-) LOL! Let's publish jointly.."Karen & Karen"...sounds like a Law Firm!!;-)

...Or an architectural one!!;-)

(KJArt)I think the most affective characteristic of Walker is his almost plaintive need to be found by Nan...it reaffirms his existence and worth. When Lina first broke down, remember how Walker hid for many hours until somebody found him?

This is in Liz Smith's column today and might explain somewhat why Tracy Letts' played Walker the way he did in the Steppenwolf production I saw. Letts' wrote this play Killer Joe that has been playing off-Broadway, I believe, for some time. THERE IS quite a fascinating showdown at the Soho Playhouse, a serio-comic slice of life, Tracy Letts' "Killer Joe." This is one hell of an evening in the theater - so graphic, violent and emotionally charged as to make the audience voyeurs, looking and listening to what is definitely not their business, wishing it would go away. But they remain hypnotized as well. It's the story of a trashy trailer park family - father, son, daughter, stepmom, planning to do away with the ex-wife, in order to collect her life insurance. They hire Killer Joe, and the madness commences. I have rarely seen performances of such intensity and shading. The great Scott Glenn, who originated the role of Joe in New York last October, has returned for a few weeks. His performance as the perverse killer is bad-tothebone chilling . . . Mim Drew as the sluttish stepmom . . . Marc A. Nelson as the desperate son . . . Michelle Williams as the pathetic but oddly crafty daughter, and Seth Ullian as the dopey, easilyledastray father are simply superb. This is strong stuff, be warned - there's frontal nu ity and no-holds-barred language.

Time to start a new film discussion? A groundswell of support had begun for Femme Fatale the last time I checked but I believe Apartment Zero and Master of the Moor is still in the running too. I think Moon would be disappointed if we did Apartment Zero without her so I vote we wait for that. Any other nominations?

Oooh goodie!! Another movie I can curl up with!! ;-) (as all good succubi would)

...circling like a sleepy pussycat...waiting to pop the chosen film into the VCR for a long summer's look-see and dissection...L@@king...

Is it FF then? **Sometime** I want to put my bid in for CAMILE....I know it's not a favorite around here ('cept for Nan and me). But there's great chemistry with Gretta Sacchi.

No, it's not decided. I was just voicing my opinion. After a serious one like 3DOR, a change of pace would be nice. But I'm open to others and will participate in whichever one receives the most interest.

This was a great week for me Firthwise. I saw three new (to me) films. The downside of this is, of course, that I shall soon be reduced to your situation of having to wait on pins and needles for CF's one or two films a year...not a pretty thought. Thanks to Heide, I have just viewed Tumbledown and Master of the Moor. A few thoughts on these... Both were excellent. DB should surely have received the BAFTA for Tumbledown, as his performance IMO was what made the movie so effective (and the reason it won the BAFTA). One couldn't say Colin is an actor who is vain about his looks. He was so moving in the scene with his parents (among many others), crying about the loss of his men. RL may have seemed arrogant with the Stubbs, but that attitude is probabl what saved him. I found him for the most part admirable; he really cared for his men and they for him. I didn't like Mrs. Stubbs' assessment of RL and Hugh as killers, not heroes. Yes, war should not be necessary, but sometimes it is, and often these young soldiers are, indeed, heroes in terrible situations not of their own making. BTW, can anyone tell me what "yomping" is? As for Master of the Moor, it was gripping start to end and very, very sad. Excellent performances all around, along with a great script and cinematography. Had me in tears at the end when CF was crying in his Dad's arms (I also liked the scene when he told his dad he loved him).The interrogation scene was masterful - the inspector was terrifying and Stephen's hands, posture, eyes and inarticulateness so eloquent .Colin does vulnerable far better than any actor I have seen. But, I must wonder why he is so concerned about typecasting when he plays so many victims. I really, really hope that he doesn't play any more corpses, along with cads and neurotics. The perfect antidote to MOTM is Fever Pitch, which I just loved. It might have been low-budget, but then, Paul's world is low-budget.I didn't care for the kid, as he didn't seem at all like the adult Paul in either looks or personality; he had no charm and that is an inherent trait, not a learned one (the boy in MOTM was very effective, on the other hand). Adored the restaurant scene, which conveyed brilliantly and succintly both Paul's charms and his weaknesses in just a few minutes. Paul must be reasona ly intelligent, even if he isn't steeped in D. H. Lawrence, since his apartment is filled with books. As for his teaching abilities, never underestimate the value of enthusiasm, energy and the ability to relate well to children to inspire them to learn. Paul is the best kind of teacher for the ordinary students (and their parents) who mostly fill classrooms. Beyond all of this, Colin is CUTE, ADORABLE, DELICIOUS in this film. My vote for the film discussion goes to either FF or MOTM.

Evelyn, if Camille was more widely available, I would vote for it, also. I love his Young Darcy look with the wildly curly locks and the emotive eyes. However it is out of the question for now, I imagine, so whatever the majority chooses I will watch and probe and analyze and drool.

Yomping is hiking/marching cross country with backpack. if Camille was more widely available than what? The other widely available Colin films? ;-) You know we have a can-do attitude for those who pledge to participate. Where there's a will there's a way...and priority mail.

This is true, but I have a copy of TA and cannot manage to copy it for the several who requested it. The local guys want more to copy mine than Reel.com did when I bought it there. (I am alone too much here and it is sunday and the new car sits idle while R does good things for his own glory elsewhere. I will go read something...)

(Marcia) if Camille was more widely available, I would vote for it, also I thought it was available from reel.com.It is a lousey tape however.Starts off like a second.

True,it is a poor tape, but is he not the most gorgeous Darcy in the making you have seen in any of his early movies? I am Trying to encourage everyone interested in a young and droolworthy Firth to go straight away to Reel.com and grab one. It should be in your hands and your hearts by the end of the week...get to it!!!

For those of you who want to see more of Camille, the Roles Pages feature Camille among others. Go to the FOF (Meluchie ) Page or Murph's Page and scroll down.

I vote for FF. Karen (as all good succubi would) Heehee! Have you got a lovely tattoo also? ;-)

For those of you who would like a copy of 3 DOR** in book form The Drama Bookshop will send one to you. Only $5.25 plus postage... 1-800 322-0595 723 seventh Ave. New York, NY 10019 FAX 212-730-8739. ** 3 DOR by Richard Greenberg ISBN 0-8222-1679-0 KJArt email me...I have yours.

I got my copy of Camille by getting it from my public library and making a copy (when I still had 2 nicely-working VCR's, that is). You might want to check out this resource...it's how I got my copy of Apartment Zero as well.

Watch for the pirating police. This is a public board.

Is that all? Thanks, ladies, who gave your votes. I'd like others to send out their votes too. Remember, not all discussions have to be on the same level as the recent Three Days of Rain. Not everyone has the time to do more than list your favorite Colin (character) Looks, Walk, Lines, etc. and frankly, I love those discussions as much as the highly literate and researched discourse we've enjoyed in the past. And I can think of quite a few favorite looks for FF but sorry, Evelyn and Marcia, can't think of any for Camille. Still, if Camille gets the most votes, I bow to you.

You're probably right. He was too young to give meaningful looks and gestures in Camille, but I think it worth the effort, sometime. Even if it is just to get the movie into wider circulation. I have a whole bunch of wav files from FF including "come back to bed" and "you have to marry me" (they *are* from FF, are they not?)

I have a whole bunch of wav files from FF including "come back to bed" and "you have to marry me" (they *are* from FF, are they not?) Oh yeah!! I get freezer burn when I hear that last one. ;-)

I don't recall "come back to bed" but that last one, *sigh*. (Heide) Remember, not all discussions have to be on the same level as the recent Three Days of Rain Goody. I'm afraid the 3DOR discussion got so far over my head it was up there with the satellites. It's time for something light and fluffy! Vote for FF! Vote for FF!

FF...FF...FF....FF..."Light and Fluffy"...."Light and Fluffy".

(Eileen) I'm afraid the 3DOR discussion got so far over my head it was up there with the satellites. Unless you lay down with head on curb, doubt this will happen with FF! ;-D

Yup! FF it is from Hilo but the way he got walloped at that tree, it was not all sweetness and light. I hurt right along with him, or am I confused again?!

Besides, it is the only one of his movies in which he mentions MY Island!

Femme Fatale it is! Light and fluffy sounds good. Since the weekend will probably be slow, how about we start Tuesday, July 6? Does anyone remember while watching this film the very first time, if they suspected Elijah, even for a second, of being in on Cynthia's disappearance? We can discuss Tuesday along with those favorite looks, outfit, line, grin, carnal moment, etc.

July 6th it is! Fav carnal moment - other than the vertical shag which Arami has claimed?! Keepsake and fav scene list opening for use any time now!

Does everyone have this film? We haven't had much of a response. Vacations?

dont have the movie, but will swing by BlockBuster this weekend and see if i can rent a copy. Btw- what's it rated? Will have a 13 yr old staying with me this weekend, should i watch it after she goes to bed?

Are you suggesting we wait until more people respond before beginning a new film discussion? Don't hold your breath, Karen. SB, a couple of bed scenes, one sex scene, no nudity (oops, forgot the topless model), very little profanity (total sucking fuccubus). Hope you find it!

Heide ...take a head count....so far: Heide, Karen, evelyn, Marcia ,esbee, Eileen... Anybody else? Speak -up!! KJArt...how about you?

(Karen) Unless you lay down with head on curb, doubt this will happen with FF! ;-D LOL! Ideal summertime fare! Unless of course we decide to debate the existential symbolism of the scene in which the bad guy pulls the lollipop off his butt in the minivan... :-D I don't know if you'll have success at Blockbuster's, SB. Look in the bargain bin! I taped the movie from the Lifetime channel. It's been edited for TV and is full of commercials, but most of the good parts are there. If you can't find it, I'm sure our hostesses will accomodate you. I'm off today so I'll rev up the VCR. Haven't watched FF in awhile. Hang on Joe, here I come! See you all next week. To my fellow Americans, happy 4th!

What are we counting? Participants? OK by me if time allows.

I have FF and will try and re-watch this weekend so I can participate. But be forewarned that none of my comments are likely to be of the highbrow nature - not that this film warrants them :-). As Eileen said, a perfect film for my lazy, summer mood.

I must wonder why he is so concerned about typecasting when he plays so many victims. I really, really hope that he doesn't play any more corpses, along with cads and neurotics. He has said that he finds playing screwed up characters most interesting and challenging. it is the only one of his movies in which he mentions MY Island! He has never mentioned anything of mine in his movies so far... :-( [FF]very little profanity I believe the European cut has more "f...s" in the scene when he gets drunk. Even I was shocked the firth time I watched it!

It's 7/6...I've done my homework...I have an excuse for using the computer because cable TV is out (blasted heatwave)...so I guess I'll start (unless someone beats me to it while I'm pounding this out). FF (or Fatal Woman, if you will) is my favorite Firth film looks-wise. Joe is quite the hunk, IMO. I like the way his hair is cut and the clothes he wears (excepting the baseball-style cap, which was too far back on his head). He's all broad shoulders and dimples, dimples, dimples! *Sigh* Joe is so sweet and innocent, you just want to hug him. The storyline ranks somewhere between 'P' and SiL (much closer to P!). The drug theft subplot is totally superfluous; it would have been a better movie without those stupid amatuer (on purpose, I know) crooks and that ridiculous ending: "$50,000? No problem" and they all go home! The script might just as well have said right out "the movie's almost over and the writers are way off on this tangent. Let's just wrap it up now, OK?" There was enough going on with the psychiatric issues to keep the story going. Favorite scenes: 1. Can't beat that shopping/proposal scene. The first kiss (after "who are you calling a tart?" "There are people watching" "They're just jealous") is one of his sexiest. Definitely a rewind moment! And as we've mentioned on the other boards, the look on his face after the cat comment and her line "you come when I call" is precious. 2. Going through the box of Cynthia's stuff with Elijah--v. funny banter between them. Favorite lines: "Still can't draw faces?" Talking Cynthia to sleep "Is this your old navy days?" "Talk to me..." "I married a succubus" "Wagner? All that passion" (with smile as he waves the paintbrush) "OK, so you were lovers, and, um, drug dealers. What else can you tell me about her?" "Well, I always wanted to meet her friends..." "How many of you are there?" "Not even one." Favorite looks: Kissing Cynthia's neck from behind at the wedding Laying in bed when she's trying to convince him to paint again When Joe realizes it's Cynthia in the tape (stabbing the fork--yecchh). He's got such horror and revulsion in his eyes Chewing the limp celery stalk Watching the video of Cynthia with Dr. Beaumont At the end, sleeping with his arms up around his head My questions for discussion (take 'em in context, this script was no prize winner): Is Joe independently wealthy? Considering Dom Perignon at the wedding, honeymoon in Hawaii (Marcia's house?), he takes unlimited leave from work to search for Cynthia, etc. all on a park ranger's salary. At the art gallery, how about that live sculpture mummified in toilet paper? Was that ODB? It sure looked like him. What was the meaning of that? And was that Cynthia-as-Maura popping up on Elijah's TV as he's surfing through the channels? Again, it sure looked like her. At the end, when Joe finds Elizabeth in the wheelchair in her father's home, she moves her feet when he approaches her. Could she move them all along? Was Cynthia, a super-ego personality, faking Elizabeth's paralysis? Or at this point, was she faking Elizabeth all together as a means to hide from Dino and his clumsy jerk--oops, accomplises? It's been 20 years since I had psych in nursing school (not my favorite subject) and I can't recall if the personalities in MPD usually manifest themselves on a predictable, perhaps stress-induced basis. Does anyone know? Cynthia/Elizabeth sure showed up at the right time (likely just another plot flaw). Lasly, what's the deal with that ending? "I'm here" I take it that means "I haven't run off again" but it could also mean "I'm here and for once the rest of me is here as well" ???? Looking forward to a (heehee) lively discussion!

Excellent start, Eileen. Unfortunately, the dog ate my homework. ;-D

(Eileen) Favorite lines: "I married a succubus" Line is much funnier in FF. FW suffered from bleeping disorder. I'm sure it will surface on Heide's list of favs! She also has a soft spot for Colin's drunken bits. ;-D (Eileen) Favorite looks: Chewing the limp celery stalk Will definitely have to study this one in greater detail. hee hee

On this subject I am not by any manner or means an expert, but I did have a very close friend who had MPD. She got progressively worse and there was less and less of the lady I knew and more and more different personalities. I never quite knew who I was going to have lunch with. I served as her ground point to what she considered normalcy. Finally, the Mental Health Association called me one day and asked for help with her. By then, her "real" self had completely disappeared and she was someone no one kn w. She was institutionalized shortly thereafter in Pennsylvania where her Mother lived. I have no idea what has happened to her, but this idea of Joe making Cynthia well again was too painfully unreal for me and infused the whole movie with an air of unreality.

(Karen) FW suffered from bleeping disorder They did leave in most of that line (I believe just the word "sucking" was omitted). There were alot of missing words (or bad voiceovers--v. funny). Most of the lovemaking scene was likely edited out as well (but they did leave in the infamous sliver of blue! Shows you where I'm looking). (Marcia) but this idea of Joe making Cynthia well again was too painfully unreal for me and infused the whole movie with an air of unreality. Lynda has an interesting angle on this. I chalk it up to a less-than-stellar script. The writers weren't going for realism, they were going for "drama."

(Marcia) this idea of Joe making Cynthia well again was too painfully unreal for me and infused the whole movie with an air of unreality. I am repeating myself here, but IMO the movie is not saying that Joe is going to cure Cynthia, only that he is planning to try to help her, firstly by giving her his love, loyalty and some more objective stability than her guilt-ridden father can do. His reaction to her not being in bed and the expression on her face in the final shot does not indicate a fairy tale ending. Ambivalent ending, at best. In the TV Guide review (rated 3 stars out of 5) for this movie, the writer says that "the only real flaw n (FF) is Joe's misguided assumption that he...can help someone who is obviously severely disturbed ". Joe is young, passionately in love and idealistic, so this naivete is, to me, a flaw in Joe's character, (one shared by many, many people, therefore, believable), not a flaw in the screenplay. On a much lighter note, Colin as Joe is lovely to look at in this film; he is heroic, not nuerotic; he doesn't die (and had he abandonned Cynthia, would he not have been a cad); and best of all, he is in every scene. I also love the talking Cynthia to sleep scene; Joe can tell me bedtime stories whenever he wants, although it's highly unlikely that I would fall asleep. Colin does have a wonderful voice and in this scene uses it most effectively. Thanks for the great start, Eileen; I'll be back later with my favorite parts of FF.

I haven't done my homework either but since FF is one of my favorite films, Firth look-wise (and yes, those are the ones I watch the most), I won't have to do too much review. But great start... Don't you love the relationship between Joe and Elijah? There are some great lines between them ("Still can't draw faces" one of my faves too). At first I thought maybe their friendship was too good to be true and Elijah was in on this somehow. He did know just where to take Joe to get some clues. But I was glad they didn't try to complicate the plot by weaving something sinister in there. I give the film points for that and points for the model. I enjoyed her mothering of Joe. She had some cute li es too. "You're from England, aren't you." Duhh. I also give the film points for the bad guys. I know the ending sounds trite and Eileen gave it a good summation when she said "the movie's almost over and the writers are way off on this tangent. Let's just wrap it up now, OK?" But I'm generous here and saying this was something unexpected which I appreciated in this otherwise very predictable film. The name of the place where Joe first sees the Maura video escapes me now but what was with that waifish blonde guy who keeps staring at Joe? You see him furtively looking at Joe as he is looking at the "exhibits" and then you see him again when they're outside the men's room. And the shoes! Poor Joe buys his shoes at a department store. Tres outre'. (Eileen) I like the way his hair is cut and the clothes he wear.. Yes, yes..yummm. I love his clothes - the kind of ratty light blue shirt he wears when he's painting is one of my particular favorites. And how about the black sleeveless T? Was he with Meg during the filming of this? Lucky girl. how could she let him get away? (Eileen) Is Joe independently wealthy? Considering Dom Perignon at the wedding, honeymoon in Hawaii (Marcia's house?), he takes unlimited leave from work to search for Cynthia, etc. all on a park ranger's salary. LOL, my thoughts too though I never thought to express them. He just comes and goes at will...no boss to report to? Oh, I know he was supposed to be on his honeymoon anyway but how long do you think he was gone? And was that Cynthia-as-Maura popping up on Elijah's TV as he's surfing through the channels? I always thought Elijah was continuously watching the Maura videos. He seemed to have some kind of fascination for her lifestyle...I mean he really dug the cut-out black leather bra. (Karen) soft spot for Colin's drunken bits. You know me. Colin does drunk very well. It's "sucking fuccubus" he says that was altered on the TV version. (Marcia) have no idea what has happened to her, but this idea of Joe making Cynthia well again was too painfully unreal for me and infused the whole movie with an air of unreality. I won't make light of your friend's plight though I was tempted to mention the Pennsylvania connection. Lynda's summary at least can give us some grasp at plausibility. Joe thinks he can help Cynthia, no matter what we think, and that's the most important thing. (Lynda) On a much lighter note, Colin as Joe is lovely to look at in this film; he is heroic, not nuerotic; he doesn't die (and had he abandonned Cynthia, would he not have been a cad); and best of all, he is in every scene. Oh yes, don't we all want a Joe Prince of our own? He is truly a prince among men. Think that's deliberate, Karen? ;-) More later. Let's not stop.

Thank you Eileen and Lynda for getting us started on FF. After P&P this is my fave Colin role ( I see it�s Murph�s too from her Guest Book). But...I have a love/hate relationship with the film. On the one hand I love Joe Prince as a character...and the tender, sweet way Colin plays him.(maybe a lot of the real Colin in him??) A nature-nerd ( love the park ranger outfit and who else would stop to pick off a moth cocoon off a tree right after he�s spent the night in a cemetery getting beaten up) But I hate to see him in this low-class B- film ( a Bomb..as one critic called it) with such a lousy cast and script. The Zane sibs lack talent Big Time. They�re awful. Billed as a psycho-thriller...the only psychos were the script writers. The story line wasn�t all that bad. Agree with Eileen the drug sub-plot was terrible. The opening scene ..where he tenderly kisses bride Cynthia on the neck and then casually looks away..�who me?�... is a favorite. Agree about when he recites his... �trick for falling asleep�.... �You know there�s a trick I use...I listen...concentrate on the closest sound ...I disappear and try to become that sound ...the refrigerator...and the next sound farther away...the water...the stream...further ...and... further.� The timbre of his voice...the timing... He gives ordinary words a dimension.... rhythm...almost pentameter-like. I�d go anywhere to hear this guy read a cookbook!! Hate my Lifetime tape.....have ordered a real one from reel. com. They have it in stock.Should be here in a few days. Will ask psychologist son about MPD....but he usually de-bunks such stuff

Agree with what has been said about Joe and his aching need to cure her. I know all about that, too. I hung in there with what became a stranger for a year or more hoping I would see a tiny sliver of her former self and grasp it before it disappeared again. Favorite quote was about the Honeymoon in Hawaii where the Volcano is erupting (hey, did you not see the email address I put down for him on my Birthday list?!) Favorite look - any time I can see him is my favorite one =)

The only good thing I saw in this movie was Colin. Was the woman who played Cynthia billy Zane's sister? She is about the worst actress I have ever seen. The rest of the cast wasn't much better and as was said before the script was a bummmer.

(Heide) The name of the place where Joe first sees the Maura video escapes me now The Waste Gallery?? (Heide) He is truly a prince among men. Think that's deliberate, Karen? ;-) Ask Arami. ;-p Shouldn't have put my *homework* on the floor! That dog has no respect... tsk tsk...

(Evelyn) Billed as a psycho-thriller Really? Puh-leeze! (Heide) "You're from England, aren't you." Duhh. Hee hee! Da dumb blonde broad from Brooklyn (with a terrible accent, too). The Waste Gallery Did you notice the camera over the urinals? I didn't until this last viewing (while doing my homework :-P). Elijah pushes it over towards Joe. BZ's not so bad, IMO. CZ's not great but at least you could tell the difference between her character's personalities (Cynthia vs. Elizabeth vs. Maura) and compared to the female lead in 'P' she's terrific. (Lynda) Joe is young, passionately in love and idealistic, so this naivete is, to me, a flaw in Joe's character, (one shared by many, many people, therefore, believable), not a flaw in the screenplay. Yes, Joe's so naive he believes he can help her after browsing through a few books, such as 'Sybil.' That's perfectly consistent with his character. He can't stand the thought of losing her, so he'll do whatever it takes. I have no gripes about this theme in the script. It's how her personalities seem to come out as if on cue (e.g., Elizabeth doesn't take over until after the wedding; Cynthia convenienty emerges during the final drive to Joe's), among other things, that lead me to diss the script.

Yes...Lisa Zane and Billy are sibs. Re: LZ...She is about the worst actress I have ever seen No...IMO Jennifer Rubin (P.) is the worst...but LZ is close second. Re: the urinal scene....did anyone notice that after they "releived " themselves Elijah shook **it ** several times. Joe didn't....or did he and my Lifetime tape edited it out. themselves....Elijah shooj

sorry for the extra tag line...I wonder where it went:-)

That whirring sound you hear is the world-wide rewind and fast forward of thousands of VCRs looking for the Urinal scene. Thanks, Evelyn. No, had not noticed before!

OK- have ordered FF from reel.com and *fingers crossed* hopefully it should appear in a few days. Meanwhile, i'll continue to read all your interesting comments and live in eager anticipation of its arrival. :) Cant wait to check out that Urinal scene *hee hee*

While everyone is checking the U scene....check this one out.... I thought Mr. Darcy's hair on his chest was black (or so it look through the white shirt).In the last scene of FF...Joe Prince's chest hair is very light...almost non-existent....Is that my tape? Or did they dye Mr. Darcy's chest hair too. (getta life,evelyn!!)

I have seen several pictures where it is quite light, but then so is his head-hair. I think they dye it to match if he's dark and it is to show.

In The Advocate he's got quite a dark patch but then his hair is dark. In other films, his chest hair is invisible. Guess I'll wait for MLSF to make a final determination. There I go, breaking my promise to myself not to discuss that M...film anymore. Anyway, back to FF. I like what you said, Eileen (I think) about Cynthia so conveniently changing her character at just the right moment. She turns back into Maura when the gangsters find her back at Joe's place, she turns into the Baby when things go bad when they're digging for the money at the end. A personality to match every mood! Love near the beginning when Joe comes to Elijah's apartment and flops backwards onto his bed. I've noticed him do this move in quite a few other films...Wings of Fame, The Advocate, Lost Empires, to name a few. Another Colin signature like the famous hand to mouth signature move he does in almost every film? I actually like Billy Zane in this film and as I've said before I really enjoy the buddy relationship between the two.

(Heide) I actually like Billy Zane in this film and as I've said before I really enjoy the buddy relationship between the two. I agree, this is one of my favorite aspects of this film. The male friendship seems real and warm, unlike most of the other preposterous elements. I'm not a huge BZ fan (thought he was a bit too Snidely Whiplash-ish in Titantic) but I enjoyed his camaraderie with CF in FF. And for those of you with only the tape of FW from Lifetime channel, I would recommend purchasing the original video if you can dig up the scratch. I've seen both and let me assure you that the bits they cut for Lifetime are ahem, definitely worth seeing!

I seem to remember that in MOTM (when he is buttoning up his shirt in the first episode) his chest hair looks luxuriant...and I think he has his natural colour in MOTM. My contribution to the FF discussion! :-) It's very hot and humid over here....my brain cells have wilted!

(Eileen) my favorite Firth film looks-wise. Joe is quite the hunk, IMO. He looks so Neil Truelove, especially during the opening credits wedding scenes. Maybe it's the haircut or the amount of hair he had! (Eileen) the baseball-style cap, which was too far back on his head Is that what the problem is? Sheesh, hadn't figured that one out. (Eileen) it would have been a better movie without those stupid amateur (on purpose, I know) crooks I kept thinking "who would be afraid of a poorly dressed golfer?" Anyone else notice the resemblance to Lenny or is it Squiggy? ;-D (Eileen) At the art gallery, how about that live sculpture mummified in toilet paper? Was that ODB? It sure looked like him. What was the meaning of that? What excellent eyes you have!! I never noticed it before, but it sure looks like him. Joe is walking around taking it all in, then he sees the mummy and his face changes. He looks disturbed. Maybe he sees the resemblance. And was that Cynthia-as-Maura popping up on Elijah's TV as he's surfing through the channels? You mean the platinum blonde with the poodles? This was before they had the Jenny Purge video, right? (Eileen) when Joe finds Elizabeth in the wheelchair in her father's home, she moves her feet when he approaches her. Could she move them all along? You mean when she's using them to help her turn the chair around to escape Joe? ;-) Oh yeah, she just thinks she's paralyzed; Beth is her paralyzed personality. (Eileen) Cynthia/Elizabeth sure showed up at the right time (likely just another plot flaw). My favorite is when Maura comes out at the end to deal with Dino, Desi and Billy and Jenny. (Eileen) "I'm here" I take it that means "I haven't run off again" I'm in the same camp. She hasn't run off again. The other (i.e., I'm cured) is just too implausible for me to believe. But it could be...NOT!! (Lynda) I also love the talking Cynthia to sleep scene Has anyone noticed a little Darcy deja vu moment here? When Joe comes running in, he says "can I get you some aspirin?" Just like "can I get you something for your present relief" at the Inn at Lambton. (Evelyn) The Zane sibs lack talent Big Time. They're awful. (Eileen) BZ's not so bad, IMO. CZ's not great but at least you could tell the difference between her character's personalities I agree, Billy wasn't too bad and Lisa!! Didn't you think she did a bang up job playing all those roles? Don't think Sally Field or Joanne Woodward could do any better. ;-) (Evelyn) Will ask psychologist son about MPD....but he usually de-bunks such stuff Interestingly, the father (a psychiatrist) says he doesn't believe in MPD either when he's showing Joe the video in his office. He says that "she's one person who has walled off different aspects of her personality." (Evelyn) Re: the urinal scene....did anyone notice... Don't get me started on this!! My all-time pet peeve about movies and television. When did someone decide that we needed to watch men facing a wall and hopping up and down? Do all important men's conversations have to take place at a urinal? Then it expanded to women. In Secrets and Lies, the wife is sitting on the toilet reaching for a tampon. There are just some bodily functions I don't need to see in movies. Ugh!! ...and no, Evelyn, he didn't shake it. But there was a great stride out of the bathroom. Very purposeful, like he didn't want to be filmed in there and couldn't get out fast enough!! Am compiling my list of favs (lines, scenes, looks, etc,) but I have some nagging questions: I just noticed that Joe said he and Cynthia had been together for a year and a half before they were married. Other than a few headaches, she seems to have been just fine all that time. Strange that the father hadn't mentioned anything about searching for her. I mean if you had a sick daughter like her, don't you think he would have hired people to look for her? Why hadn't Joe taken the TP off the truck when he went to pick up the pictures three days after the ceremony?

(Karen) I just noticed that Joe said he and Cynthia had been together for a year and a half before they were married. I thought that too, but I believe Elijah made that comment, when Joe and he were in the pool - meaning that Joe has been going on and on about Cynthia without really saying anything about her. At the cemetery, Ted (or was it Ed) said that Maura went to Vancouver three months earlier and diappeared. (Karen) Strange that the father hadn't mentioned anything about searching for her. I mean if you had a sick daughter like her, don't you think he would have hired people to look for her? Dr. Beaumont told Joe at the end that Cynthia had gone off before and that sometimes he wished she wouldn't come back. He didn't fight too hard to keep Joe from taking Cynthia away; IMO, though feeling guilty about it, he was relieved to be handing over the responsibilty to someone else. Re the multiple personalities and how conveniently they appeared in FF, my husband (and I, though not very attentively) were watching Dateline NBC this past week and it was profiling a man who apparently suffers from this disorder. I remain very sceptical, but my husband (and others on the show) was convinced - said he could actually see the man change in response to stress- inducing questions. Perhaps personalities change in response to external stimuli. I do not think Cynthia was acting. She was paralyz d when she was with her dad - some kind of (unconscious) sick script she and her dad enacted over and over. I still believe that she had a better chance (though perhaps not much of one) with Joe than with her dad. Favourite Looks: The beautiful smile Joe flashes at Cynthia as she lies on the floor; the look on his face when Cynthia tell Joe she likes his drawings in the nature centre scene (in fact, I adore Joe's face in that entire meeting Cynthia scene, depite the baseball cap. Completely adorable). Favourite clothes: the sweater he wears in the proposal scene - makes him look so big and strong and virile. Actually, I liked all Joe's clothes in FF Favourite scenes: nothing origianl here.The proposal scene - loved Joe and Cynthia dancing, Joe saying "Mrs. McGillicuddy's home for fallen felines" and "they get squishy". The lovemaking scene - CF gave Joe a physical tenseness and stiffness that I found very erotic (and not seen by me in any other lovemaking scene I've watched). I am partial to the scene in Elijah's trashed-out apartment, when Joe talked about being better than the world - I wanted CF to keep talking indefinately. Most uncomfortable scene: the kidnapping, particularly Joe with a gun in his mouth, pleading. No macho man here, but a real guy helpless in a horrifying situation.

I do agree with you, Lynda, that Cynthia/Elizabeth has more of a chance with Joe than with her "enabler" father. Don't really think she has much of a chance at all without proper treatment. What is the cure rate for MPD? Didn't we once rate their marriage the least likely to survive? Slightly lower than Paul and Sarah in Fever Pitch but that's another story. I have some stupid questions but they're nagging at me: Who are all these people at the wedding? Cynthia's been there for 3 months and Joe doesn't strike me as a very social guy out there in the woods. Who loves more in this relationship? Joe drives Cynthia back to the cabin. He thinks she's still paralyzed until they get to the store the next morning and she tells him she doesn't need his help. What did he do when they had to take a bathroom break? This film does give us some showcasing moments for Colin's subtle expressions. I love his acting when he first meets the model Andrea and she starts to undress. Shyness, embarrassment, and interest all rolled into one. He looks at her, looks away, fidgets with his collar as his eyes move back to her. Then he bites the bullet and strides over to her to introduce himself. The handshake was omitted in the Lifetime version, I believe because she's topless at that point. Also his growing awareness of what his wife was as he watches the video of Maura for the first time. Elijah is scoffing and scornful, disbelieving this could be Joe's wife but the camera pans in on Joe as he accepts this fact. Is it possible to project hopeless acceptance? And another...his reaction when Jenny tells him that Maura and she were lovers. "You do know about her and me." Lightning bolt! "You were lovers." He takes off the icepack from his head and strides to the window. You can see him thinking, "okay, I can deal with this, but please don't tell me anymore." A couple of standing at the window scenes but no real Darcy moments that I detect. A bit of a stretch to say Joe driving through the night to get to LA to find Cynthia is the same Avenging Angel bit as Darcy riding through the night to get to London to find Lydia but I'll go for it. (Lynda) The lovemaking scene - CF gave Joe a physical tenseness and stiffness that I found very erotic (and not seen by me in any other lovemaking scene I've watched). Well put, Lynda. Tense and stiff are the right adjectives. We love to speculate on what could have caused that rather startled expression on his face at one point. Thanks for posting the mummy picture. There's no question now that is Colin/Joe. What do you think the point of that is? And Eileen, I see now that the scene where Elijah is watching a tape that looks like Cynthia is before they even went to the Waste Gallery so that can't be the video they picked up there as I replied. Same idea then as the mummy and Joe? Billy Zane's okay in this film. Favorite exchange is while Elijah is painting: E: "No art in England." J:"I got a scholarship...." E. "...from Masterpiece Theatre." Favorite outfit is the black tee shirt and black leather jacket (that old familiar jacket) he wears to the tatoo parlor. Most uncomfortable scene: the kidnapping, particularly Joe with a gun in his mouth, Pretty awful to see our boy that helpless. Most frustrating scene: Joe's got the gun, he lets Ted/Ed (or is it Desi or Billy-like that, Karen) hit him with the shovel. Then Joe takes a weak swing at Ted/Ed and just stands there leaving himself wide open for another punch which of course he gets. I know our boy is a lover not a fighter but I think I could even have protected myself a bit better.

Thanks for posting the mummy picture. There's no question now that is Colin/Joe. What do you think the point of that is? IMO there's no significance for the storyline. I always imagined it as a joke, very likely the result of an off-camera fun. You can even see him grin under that paper. The toilet-paper-mummy is an inserted, unconnected shot, and not part of the countershot which shows us the whole scenario Joe is watching. Since I discovered that, my view of the whole film changed. I take it less serious, more from an ironic angle, and it improved a lot! :-) I got the impression they must have had some fun at least, when aking that film.

(Karen) He looks so Neil Truelove, especially during the opening credits wedding scenes. Maybe it's the haircut or the amount of hair he had! I did see the *sob* bald spot, though. It's when he's with Jenny. I don't recall the precise moment, but the ice pack is off and he turns his head. There it is (funny how I never noticed it until you Donmar ladies verified its presence. Now I notice it all the time. I suppose I was in denial). (Lynda) I adore Joe's face in that entire meeting Cynthia scene, depite the baseball cap. Completely adorable Don't you love it when he says "yeah--drink beer?" I've not heard him say a line like that! (Heide) Love near the beginning when Joe comes to Elijah's apartment and flops backwards onto his bed. I've noticed him do this move in quite a few other films...Wings of Fame, The Advocate, Lost Empires, to name a few It reminded me of Valmont falling backwards into the water, as the talking Cynthia to sleep scene reminded me of the letter dictation to Cecile. You can just close your eyes and listen...*sigh* (Heide) She turns back into Maura when the gangsters find her back at Joe's place, she turns into the Baby when things go bad when they're digging for the money at the end. A personality to match every mood! (Lynda)Perhaps personalities change in response to external stimuli I can buy this, but then why didn't Cynthia change into someone else while she and Joe were "dating," whether it was three months (much more believable) or a year and a half? As Karen says, other than a few headaches, she seems to have been just fine all that time. Again, I don't think this movie was striving for clinical accuracy. (Heide) What did he do when they had to take a bathroom break? Hee hee! Good point. Joe was drinking all the coffee (3 cups stacked). Perhaps he just pulled over when nature called (and didn't shake it afterwards ;-P ) (Lynda) I do not think Cynthia was acting. She was paralyzed when she was with her dad - some kind of (unconscious) sick script she and her dad enacted over and over It's plausible that Cynthia (rather, Maura) purposely faked Elizabeth in order to hide out from Dino, Desi and Billy (LOL, Karen--now there's a blast from the past) and even Joe. I believe MPD patients become aware of their various personalities while they're in treatment. (Lynda) Dr. Beaumont told Joe at the end that Cynthia had gone off before and that sometimes he wished she wouldn't come back. He didn't fight too hard to keep Joe from taking Cynthia away; IMO, though feeling guilty about it, he was relieved to be handing over the responsibilty to someone else A pox on Dr. Beaumont as both a physician and a father. He meets Joe in his professional capacity and appropriately advises him that he can't divulge any details of his patient's history even though Joe's her husband (as verified merely by those snapshots. What if it had been Halloween?). Less than a minute later he "does a 180," abandons all professional ethics and readily breaches confidentiality to spill the gory details. As you said, Lynda, he never should have been treating her in the first place He's professionally unethical, paternally guilt-ridden, burnt out, hopeless and ready to hand the baton to someone else: a complete stranger who is naive and unprepared to take on a patient with an extensive history and who's been refractory to treatment. My initial reaction to all this was *phooey* but, hey, it could happen :-p Thanks for that snappy, Karen. My videotape kept jumping when I froze it so I wasn't sure. (Renate) I got the impression they must have had some fun at least, when making that film. Absolutely. Or just had a really low budget (no funds for extras--had to pay Dino, et al.). (Karen) Why hadn't Joe taken the TP off the truck when he went to pick up the pictures three days after the ceremony? Because he's in L-U-V and is so happy to be married, he wants the whole world to know about it. Didn't that truck crack you up? Loved those animal cutouts above the door. (Heide) Who are all these people at the wedding? Cynthia's been there for 3 months and Joe doesn't strike me as a very social guy out there in the woods. Yeah, who are they? Thirsty park visitors? Shoppers from the convenience store? Perhaps after Joe and Cynthia got together they entertained alot?? Cynthia can't know anyone and Joe, as Elijah put it, likes to run away and hide. Which begs the question...why? We really don't know much about Joe. He came to the US from England on an art scholarship, loves nature, is talented but has abandoned painting (why?). In pursuit of the "succubus" theme, I would think the Joe character would be pure and naive period. The artsy nature-lover fits the bill. Why introduce this conflict? So Cynthia could draw him out and make him paint again?

Re: MPD Psychologist son does not consider this a bonafide psychotic mental disorder.And does not take the condition seriously. This condition was never identified until this century and then the number of cases skyrocketed.....known only in the US...ocurrs more often in women .Has recently gone down in number. Can be compared to the condition of �being possessed by the devil�(which is virtually unknown today).Or people who �hear voices�. In other words...it is a contemporary eccentric cultural mental condition. Of course Elizabeth probably inherited some schizophrenic genes from her mother and then was abused by her....so the poor girl was a prime candidate for a serious mental disorder....perhaps she manifested it in MP. This is his opinion only.... you understand. For the doctors who do treat MPD the usual protocol is hospitalization and therapy. Of course without MPD we would not have had the storyline of FF. But one must think that the future of this marriage looks grim...unless Joe makes a commitment to love Maura/Elizabeth...or whomever he wakes -up next to in the morning. and that could make an interesting marriage...for sure it would never be dull. ****** I have an extra FF tape( Lifetime version). And will gladly give it to anyone who promises to join in our discussion. Pl. email me.

Pardon me for the spelling errors in my last posting; I was watching Fever Pitch (again) and was distracted by the coffee cup scene as I proofread.. I love this film, more so every time I see it. CF is sooo cute and RG (and the whole cast) is terrific too. I certainly want to see this on the big screen. (Evelyn) But one must think that the future of this marriage looks grim...unless Joe makes a commitment to love Maura/Elizabeth...or whomever he wakes -up next to in the morning. and that could make an interesting marriage...for sure it would never be dull. Joe asks Cynthia in the truck and in bed about her personalities so his committment may not be the problem. His real difficulty is going to be living with someone who may run out on him at any given time or who may drag him into serious unpleasantness. He's never going to be relaxed in this marriage and will always be afraid to upset her. It's no way to live. BTW, Joe does show some (understandable) anger in the truck and in the grocery store at the end. Will he be able to control it forever? He has been badly deceived and ill-used. Look at Joe's face while he's watching the Marilyn video in the motel room - when he realizes that everything Cynthia told him in the lovemaking scene was word-for-word from the script of the MM video.

IMO whatever it was that attracted Joe to Cynthia in the first place (her lovely tattoo, perhaps?) will not withstand the stressors you mention, Lynda and Evelyn--never knowing who he's waking up with or if any of them will even be there. IMO this movie peaked before the drug sub-plot and went somewhat downhill until its "huh?" ending. But how else could it have ended (the storyline of Joe and Cynthia, that is)? I think most of us agree that she's not miraculously cured when she says "I'm here." The ending's as uncertain as Joe and Cynthia's future.

(Eileen) It's plausible that Cynthia (rather, Maura) purposely faked Elizabeth in order to hide out from Dino, Desi and Billy ... and even Joe. But why? She was quite well hidden from Dino and the lads in the woods, especially after three months - the bad guys weren't closing in on her. Why hide from Joe; IMO, Cynthia loved him (the painting and proposal scenes convinced me). And why fake Elizabeth with her father - he was aware of her other personas and wouldn't have betrayed her. (Eileen) He meets Joe in his professional capacity and appropriately advises him that he can't divulge any details of his patient's history even though Joe's her husband ... Less than a minute later he "does a 180," abandons all professional ethics and readily breaches confidentiality to spill the gory details. However, Dr. B. as Cynthia's father and, most likely, guardian, could divulge Cynthia's history. He decided the only chance he had of ridding himself of Joe was to scare him off. That film would have scared most guys, but Joe was a prince, after all. BTW, the actor playing Dr. B did a terrific job in his final scene with Joe - most believable and poignant. My favourite non-Colin moment in FF. A question: How did Joe find out where Dr. Beaumont lived? (Eileen) I don't think this movie was striving for clinical accuracy. Don't think the W/D ever remotely imagined us (or anyone) doing a film discussion (dissection?) on FF! (Heide) Who are all these people at the wedding? (Eileen) Thirsty park visitors? Shoppers from the convenience store? How about Joe's Forestry Service colleagues? He would have hardly been out there in the woods all by himself. (Eileen) I did see the *sob* bald spot, though. DB's hair looked thin in the rain scenes in MOTM and one scene in FP, but always where his hair is parted. FF was made 10 years ago; is CF balder now (asked to those of you who saw him in 3DOR)? Seems that he would be pretty bald by now if he were noticeably thiining a decade ago. Maybe his hair (quality or quantity) is of a type which when wet or parted shows a lot of scalp. Ok, OK, I am in denial, too...but his thinness doesn't seem to have increased from FF (1989 ?) to FP (1996).

I was in denial too, Lynda, until the Donmar. But even then it's quite easy to disguise with the amount of hair he does have on that lovely head. Let's just make sure he always carries an umbrella.

(lynda) the actor playing Dr. B did a terrific job in his final scene with Joe - most believable and poignant. My favourite non-Colin moment in FF. I agree with you, Lynda. After Colin, I thought he was the most convincing in his role. **** Re: The mummy scene at the Waste Gallery...how's about: Joe is so upset over the recent events..which are progressively getting worse...that when he looks at the mummy encased in gauze he seems to see the mummy as the current situation that he's in...thus he sees his face on the mummy. Watch the expression on Joe's face when he glances at the mummy... Too big a stretch??? **** Anybody who went to the Donmar see the same washing of the face when he gets upset ? Ned getting insulted by Theo.....Joe after finding the letter from Cynthia.... ***** Dumb-Dumb lines... along with .."Where do you buy your shoes'? "Are you English"? Andrea to Elijah after the apt. gets trashed..."Do you have insurance"? Dino: "We're getting side-tracked here..". ***** Joe to Elijah..."What's my type"? Feeling insulted...cute look. Elijah.."Thought you'd go for a wholesome mouse"...Boy, was he wrong!!

Ok- saw FF for the first time yesterday. First impression: He is SO FREAKEN CUTE!!!! Is our darling, darling boy not the most GORGEOUS thing in the world? Heavy drooling ensued, I can assure you! ....*drip, drip* Second impression: (more of the same) :) That butt in those jeans! That body on white sheets! And the dimples!!! *attempting to regulate breathing...* Third impression: what an odd movie. Were those 'hoodlums' supposed to be the comic relief? What in God's name where they wearing? I seem to remember somebody mentioning their resemblence to Lenny and Squigy, and I must whole heartly concure! :) Joe Prince: very noble, stubborn, and likeable (need I mention to cute for words?) Elijah: nice friend, but obvious woman/paper bag issues. :) idiot blond from NY: an idiot blond from NY Cynthia(and crew): lost count of how many personalitis there were. none of them held my interest. remember Cynthia most clearly because that's what Joe called her during the bedroom flashback scenes... and we all know what held my attention during those scenes! Dino/Lenny & Squiggy wanna bes/redheaded chick with the bad dye job: were we really supposed to believe that these are the people running the crime scene in LA???? I know that Dino wasnt supposed to be a character from The God Father, but please! Part fastforwarded through: in the cemetary when they have a gun in Joe's mouth. Sorry, just couldnt watch that. Part I missed: the infamous patch of blue. That's supposed to be in this movie -right? Oh Well. Guess I'll just have to watch all those bedroom scenes again. :) Part I laughed out loud at: "Where do you buy your shoes?" who wrote this script?

"Where do you buy your shoes" is street talk for " Do you have any drugs?"

(SB) First impression: He is SO FREAKEN CUTE!!!! Is our darling, darling boy not the most GORGEOUS thing in the world? Heavy drooling ensued, I can assure you! ....*drip, drip* YES, YES, YES !!! CF/Joe is absolutely beautiful - for looks, the perfect man. Maybe we should send FF to Rosie - how could she then resist having ODB on her show? Other favourite looks: The closeup of Joe's eyes in the painting scene... such entrancing eyes. Joe in profile under that remarkable tree... very droolable there. The nature centre scene: all big, dark, expressive eyes and lovely mouth in a very pale face , and (Heide) This film does give us some showcasing moments for Colin's subtle expressions. The scene where Joe is in the motel watching the MM video. Not only is Joe breathtaking with his sweet battered face and his neck and chest so vulnerably exposed, but his expressions are wonderful, especially when he gives a little sigh of weary disappointment as he realises that Cynthia's words to him when they were making love came from this video and that absolutely nothing he knows of her is true. (SB) Dino/Lenny & Squiggy wanna bes/redheaded chick with the bad dye job: were we really supposed to believe that these are the people running the crime scene in LA???? Nah. Dino's a Canadian godfather - how bad can he be? Ted and Ed are strictly amateurs - how else to explain "stubby" fresh out of the box. I don't think they'd frighten any really bad guys, only an innocent like Joe. (Eileen) *Sigh* Joe is so sweet and innocent, you just want to hug him. I can think of a few other things I'd rather do with (to) Joe! But you are so right about the dimples and broad shoulders. *Sigh*

Maybe his hair (quality or quantity) is of a type which when wet or parted shows a lot of scalp. That has always been my own impression too. But after the Donmar, when we had a chance for a really close look, there's no denying that the top of his head has become an even area of gradually receding growth - though I don't see any completely bald patches as yet.

(Evelyn) Dino: "We're getting side-tracked here.." Isn't that the most perceptive line?! that when he looks at the mummy encased in gauze he seems to see the mummy as the current situation that he's in...thus he sees his face on the mummy. Good one, Evelyn! But don't go too '3DOR deep' on us... (but then again, I recall reading a thoughtful discussion about the pearls in the dreaded P. If that *cough* movie merited such fine literary analysis, so does FF!). (SBR) First impression: He is SO FREAKEN CUTE!!!! Nobody says it like you, SBR! :-) How about at the end of the bedroom scene, when Joe's lying on his back and says he supposes his paintings "hide a crack in the wall." There's a close up right before he says the line that's v. droolworthy. As you would say, SB, *drip, drip*! Murph had that snappy up at her site last year (oh, Kaaaren...;-)). "Where do you buy your shoes" is street talk for " Do you have any drugs?" Well, when all the characters proceeded to look down at the shoes (and the camera panned down to them) you'd never know he was asking about drugs. Did they think he kept them in those shoes?

(Eileen) .... But don't go too '3DOR deep' on us... I promise I won't go into analyzing FF. Though there are possibilities like.. when Cynthia looks at the tree frog in the tank that changes colors according to its environment.And how about the silk moth encased in the cocoon....!!! Naaah...let's go back to the blue line in a bed scene that I never found either. Give us explicit instructions....we need eagle-eye- Bethan here.

**How about Cynthis encased in a cocoon!?! On my very first viewing, I found it jarring during during the love scene that when she's shot from the back, she's bare all the way down, but when shot from the front or side, she has suddenly and miraculously wrapped herself up to the armpits or chin in a sheet. When she fell out of bed that way, I found it histerical...here is an actress that will only go so far for the sake of her art...but it's so obvious!! Hee hee. Also, I suspect Elijah (Aha, says Heide!!) of being familiar with Maura's work before this, and that's why he was also familiar with the nature and location of her sick arty subculture...he just didn't make the connection with Joe's Cynthia (Remember, he didn't attend the wedding). As to whether or not he's a fan.....????

If it's not this one, then I'll have to check with Murph... BTW, I'm changing the one on the main Drool page, as Heide doesn't like Joe Boy Scout. ;-p

Thank you Karen...I like the new one on the Drool masthead...how about this bed scene one later. **** This movie is getting better....(we always do this...enhance the rubbish...) Does seem like Elijah knew Maura alright... Poor Joe...he married Cynthia..but her dad says Elizabeth is the "core person". "I'm still here" ,she says at the end...but for how long?

Re: Multiple Personality Disorder (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder): http://members.aol.com/BoyyM/FAQ.html Doesn't answer everything, but a good start.

(Lynda) At the cemetery, Ted (or was it Ed) said that Maura went to Vancouver three months earlier and disappeared. Joe is definitely a fast mover! Or maybe that accounts for why his suit didn't fit well. No time for tailoring or borrowed! Thanks, Lynda, for the correction. I must pay closer attention to the dialogue and plot. ;-D (Lynda) He [Dr. Beaumont] though feeling guilty about it, he was relieved to be handing over the responsibility to someone else. But also relief that he wasn't hiding anything anymore from Joe, the lawful husband. Question: Are they legally wed?? Cynthia can't be considered "mentally competent," although you can marry under any name you want and still be married. (Lynda) the sweater he wears in the proposal scene - makes him look so big and strong and virile. Actually, I liked all Joe's clothes in FF Must take issue with the rolled up jeans. Speaking of sweaters, when Joe returns to find Cynthia missing, he's wearing another big old sweater and you get all sorts of close-ups of his neck and the moles on his neck. yummy!! (Heide) when Jenny tells him that Maura and she were lovers....You can see him thinking, "okay, I can deal with this, but please don't tell me anymore." But it changes to jealousy and curiosity because later he says to Elijah that he wants to know everything that they did. (Heide) We love to speculate on what could have caused that rather startled expression on his face at one point. Well, let's see. Cynthia stretches her arms down as she is lying on top of him... (Eileen) Don't you love it when he says "yeah--drink beer?" I've not heard him say a line like that! Yes!! And my favorite part is that he changes into an American accent for that bit of the line. (Eileen) He's professionally unethical, paternally guilt-ridden, burnt out, hopeless and ready to hand the baton Exactly. Guilt is at the core of his behavior and he's fleeing from it again. He chose to ignore the mistreatment by his schizo wife because of his career. (Eileen) In pursuit of the "succubus" theme, I would think the Joe character would be pure and naive period. The artsy nature-lover fits the bill. Why introduce this conflict? So Cynthia could draw him out and make him paint again? Good question. Yes, Joe needs to paint again, but what caused him to stop? Are we ever told? He is a nature lover and has escaped from the pollution (i.e., waste) of LA into the woods. (Evelyn) he seems to see the mummy as the current situation that he's in...thus he sees his face on the mummy. Watch the expression on Joe's face when he glances at the mummy... I think we should call this the "cocoon" shot because that's what I think it's supposed to represent. Joe is in a cocoon, safe and snug as a bug in a rug in his woods. This trip to LA is an eye-opener for him and is forcing him to come out of his cocoon. (SB) First impression: He is SO FREAKEN CUTE!!!! Is our darling, darling boy not the most GORGEOUS thing in the world? Heavy drooling ensued, I can assure you! ....*drip, drip* I take it you enjoyed the movie? ;-D (Lynda) Joe in profile under that remarkable tree... very droolable there. Oh, you're not kidding. Love that and wish someone would snappy it. (Lynda) Dino's a Canadian godfather - how bad can he be? What makes you think that? The action is supposed to take place in LA. They all travel up to somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. All we know is that Maura had to make a drop in Vancouver. (Passionata) "Where do you buy your shoes" is street talk for " Do you have any drugs?" (Eileen) Well, when all the characters proceeded to look down at the shoes (and the camera panned down to them) you'd never know he was asking about drugs. Did they think he kept them in those shoes? LOL!! They don't call them *mules* for nothing. (KJArt) Also, I suspect Elijah (Aha, says Heide!!) of being familiar with Maura's work before this, and that's why he was also familiar with the nature and location of her sick arty subculture I didn't. As I recall, Elijah said that the Waste Gallery had some of his work. The only thing was that he was very familiar with Jenny Purge's work and could name Maura Sade on sight. Great line here: "Her stuff's alright if you like repulsive shit." Other good ones : "It's nice you can still find time to broaden your vocabulary." (succubus) "So you were lovers and drug dealers. What else can you tell me about her? Well, I always wanted to meet her friends." "You know, I'm starting to like this girl" (Elijah checking out goodies) As Joe explains about the silk moth having no mouth and only being able to mate, lay eggs and die, the model says: "huh, kind of sad." "The worse it gets, the more I want her back." Brilliant bits of dialogue: Joe: Christ, not my eyes (as Jenny is holding knife) Jenny: She married you? Oh shit, I'm sorry, that must really hurt. [duh!] **** Joe: Don't you ever eat? Elijah: Not in front of other people.

(Karen) Yes!! And my favorite part is that he changes into an American accent for that bit of the line. Practising for Playmaker??? Very cute. (Heide) We love to speculate on what could have caused that rather startled expression on his face at one point. (Karen) Well, let's see. Cynthia stretches her arms down as she is lying on top of him... Yes, when he lies down, LZ reaches behind her a couple of times and laughingly says something in his ear, and CF seems to say something like," no" or "don't" and very definitely "stop, stop" seconds later. CF's performance in this scene deserved an Oscar and my kudos to The Drama Centre for his fantastic Method training! His face for those few moments, particularly while they are upright, is ... words fail me. An aside - CF makes a couple of little moans similar to that in the shower/lovemaking scene in , which convinces me that that was no double. More favourite lines: From the lovemaking scene: "What...eternal love not good enough for you?" "I don't know...just hide a crack in the wall." (sort of like CF's comments about Darcy, that he didn't do anything special, that it was all the character, the costumes, the hair-dye, etc. I believe the director of The Advocate mentioned CF's self-deprecating quality, too) Maybe Joe's lack of belief in his talent (because his art wasn't selling?) is why he quit painting. Elijah may have been less talented, but he was more confident, ambitious and self-promoting (wasn't he voted most likely to succeed?). (Lynda) Dino's a Canadian godfather - how bad can he be? (Karen) What makes you think that? The action is supposed to take place in LA. They all travel up to somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. All we know is that Maura had to make a drop in Vancouver. Ed tells Joe, "in Vancouver, she (Maura) recieves from Dino $112.000 in exchange for this aforementioned blue flight bag". Now I'm no expert on the drug smuggling business, but living near (and crossing frequently) the Cdn.- US border as I do, I should think that it would be an incredibly stupid risk (and a waste of energy) for Dino to have Maura bring drugs through customs (even we have been stopped and searched on occasion), and then take them himself back over the border. And I don't think that Canadia drug lords (I am sure we have them, though I don't know any personally) would take kindly to having an outsider distributing drugs on their turf. Maybe Maura left the drugs behind in the U.S. before reaching Vancouver. BTW, what kind of a drug dealer would hand over big money without sampling the merchandise?

(Karen) If it's not this one No, this is it! *scrolling back up there now* Isn't that the best? As Kitty and Lydia would say, aaaaahhhhhUUUUUUUmmmmmmmm! Thanks, Karen! (Evelyn) when Cynthia looks at the tree frog in the tank that changes colors according to its environment Yes, I picked that up during my second viewing (proves it couldn't have been that deep ;-)). (KJArt) she has suddenly and miraculously wrapped herself up to the armpits or chin in a sheet I noticed that and I have the FW (cropped) version. She looks somewhat giftwrapped! BTW, all you "blue sliver" missers--fear not. You're really not missing much. It's more an editing error than a peek at prime gluteus maximus. But don't let me stop you from searching again! It appears after giftwrapped/coccoon Cynthia hits the floor, says "what, did the earth move?" He replies "I think so" [I think] and joins her on the floor. As he leaves the bed, the camera pans down his back...further...further...just when you think there's going to be a butt shot, there's a glimpse of his left ip (sacroiliac region, for all you anatomy buffs) and the bright blue waistband of what Joe presumably wouldn't be wearing during sweaty love-making! (Karen) Cynthia can't be considered "mentally competent," I'm no lawyer, but I do know she'd first have to be judged incompetent in court. She wasn't a danger to herself or others, so she's not commitable from a psych standpoint either. This trip to LA is an eye-opener for him and is forcing him to come out of his cocoon You mean insofar as his search for Cynthia and exposure to her complicated past, right? How about Jenny's stunning wardrobe? Must go out and get myself a corset to wear over my clothes ASAP ;-P *scrolling back up to that snappy again*

Lovely change of scenery there on the main page. And the one up above ain't bad either. Of course the real reason I watch this film is for it's deft and witty script, it's poetic cinematography and it's classic symbolism. Kidding aside, EVELYN! you woke me up to a very important fact. Elizabeth is the "core person". Cynthia was dominant but will she be forever? So which one was Elizabeth? The girl in the wheelchair? Cynthia stretches her arms down as she is lying on top of him... I thought they were sitting up but I like it, I like it. "Where do you buy your shoes" is street talk for " Do you have any drugs?" I don't think everyone has seen this film. (KJArt) Also, I suspect Elijah of being familiar with Maura's work before this, and that's why he was also familiar with the nature and location of her sick arty subculture (Karen) I didn't. As I recall, Elijah said that the Waste Gallery had some of his work. The only thing was that he was very familiar with Jenny Purge's work and could name Maura Sade on sight. But it sounds just about the same. Both possibilities mesh. (Karen) Question: Are they legally wed?? Good. Then it will be easier for Joe to leave her assuming she doesn't wander off again first.

So which one was Elizabeth? The girl in the wheelchair? That's what Dr. Beaumont said. And after reading the FAQ on MPD that KJArt found for us, (Thank you KJ..) Cynthia could have more personalities to go...sometimes they can have 50!!! So assuming she's cured...she'll go back to the "core person"....Elizabeth. Who will not know Joe!! Poor guy could be in for quite a trip!!

(Evelyn) ...the story line wasn't all that bad... *Ahem*. I contend that the story line is terrible, it is the PREMISE that was not all that bad; it could have made an interesting study of the man who marries a MPD sufferer and gradually learns she isone and how to cope (certainly dramatic enough), but the direction the writers took with it (purely for shock value) practically made that drug sub-plot almost inevitable (or, should I say somedrug plot almost inevitable!) That's their idea of dray-ma--nothing less would do!! A shame! (Eileen)...her personalities seem to come out as if on cue... Having looked into the MPD/DID syndrome, I'd suggest that you are exactly right, Eilleen, and it often happens that way. These different "entities" were created to contain, modify, or protect against some aspect of the trauma that they suffered as a child. When the person is threatened, it would not be surprising that an angry and aggressive "protector" entity would suddenly take over. (Cynthia)..."I'm here..." Considering the expressions on her face preceding and following that statement, I would suggest it is her realization or recognition of whereshe is, and with whom she is. A dawning appreciation of what lies before her, and that she has someone to count on to see her through it. (Granted, only Cynthia would see this now, but proper therapy is meant to "introduce" the entities to each other, to the core person, and allow all to become familiar with the therapist and the people around them... nd hopefully integrate into a cooperative unit.) (Pure conjecture on my part! 8-D). Re: meeting Andrea... If Joe and Elijah attended art school together, it would be highly unlikely that either would be thrown by the sight of a naked model...

... PREMISE that was not all that bad That's what I mean't by storyline....certainly not the script (dialogue) or director... Andre Guttfreund, never heard of him. But the writer Michael Freeris went on to write The Net (JN and Sandra Bullock)which wasn't half-bad. Maybe he wrote this one while still an apprentice.

Well, the first time I saw it, that ending destroyed what little belief in the story was left...SURE, those two goons plus accomplice are just going to shrug and walk away and leave those two scott-free, knowing, as they do, all about who's doing the dealing and how much money was involved and how the traffic got through, etc. I'd always had the impression that in the drug business, Rule #1 was Leave No Witnesses! Unbelievable!! It occurred to me that the people at the wedding could well be Joe's Forest Service Co-workers, but also Instructors, etc, from Art School, and friends from the art community, which can often be tight and interdependent (Maura's ilk being left out of it). As to the reasons why Joe left that community and doing art were probably as suggested...his art wasn't selling and he had to leave it and do something else for some dependable income (I can vouch personally for that situation...!! :-D) I have a question, though. I thought Maura was the only one in the art/movie business (not to mention the lesbianism and drugs!!) So how is it that Cynthia knows the MM speech by heart??

( KJArt) Cynthia Baker was Maura's false name on the passport ..or so Jenny said. The name Baker was after MM real name.So there's a connection someplace ...but I can't figure it out.Anybody?

Sorry about the misquote, KJ..and the italics.

CF's performance in this scene deserved an Oscar and my kudos to The Drama Centre for his fantastic Method training! (Lynda) He was quoted a couple of years back in the British press saying that the part he disliked most about his work was sex scenes because he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". !!! I'm very impressed by the discussion, ladies! My initial impression of FF was of how young he looked in the opening shots...not a day over nineteen :-)

(bethan) ... the part he disliked most about his work was sex scenes because he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". !!! aahh...but he pretended so very well in FF! (KJart) So how is it that Cynthia knows the MM speech by heart?? (Evelyn) Cynthia Baker was Maura's false name on the passport ..or so Jenny said. The name Baker was after MM real name.So there's a connection someplace ...but I can't figure it out.Anybody? Dr. B. said that these personas were just walled-off aspects of Elizabeth's personality, so there must have been leakage from (and at least subconscious awareness of) one persona to another. IMO, Cynthia was not consciously reciting MM's speech to Joe to decieve him; the speech had just ended up being a part of Cynthia's reality. And didn't Jenny say that Maura had a thing about MM and the female vulnerability trip (hardly surprising). Hence the passport name and Cynthia's internalisation of the MM speec . BTW, the Jenny Purge and Maura (Marat?) Sade names, along with Joe Prince, Dino and Ted and Ed - the W/D's idea of wit? Loved the way Joe kept fondling Cynthia's hair - so sweet and tender. Speaking of hair, what's with Jenny's hairstyle at the end? Talk about art-trash - without the art! What a hoot! (Karen) Has anyone noticed a little Darcy deja vu moment here? Absolutely, though perhaps we should say a Joe moment in P & P. Another one - Joe asking Cynthia "Where are you from?" is similar to Darcy asking Lizzie in the Pemberley scene "Where are you staying?". I was also reminded of Adrian LeDuc in the scene when Joe asked Elijah "What's my type?".

KJart) So how is it that Cynthia knows the MM speech by heart?? (Evelyn) Cynthia Baker was Maura's false name on the passport ..or so Jenny said. The name Baker was after MM real name.So there's a connection someplace ...but I can't figure it out.Anybody? Maybe it's just that the scriptwriters didn't do their homework...:-) Something occurs to me reading Lynda's response, and so far I have not come across anything to answer it...Does each of these separate identities also already have their own separate (and different) pasts? Must each invent one? ...And we know that these entities sometimes are, or can be made to be, aware of the others, but does that mean that they just know that the others are there, or do they have a total understanding of the other's personality? From the description of typical "alters", I get the impression that such awareness is very variable in extent from one entity to another, for the others. (Are we having fun yet?! 8-D)

(Evelyn)....(we always do this...enhance the rubbish...) ROTFLOL!!! Ain't it the truth!?! I love it! (Evelyn, you always state the most profound concepts so succinctly!!) ;-)

Based on *my research* of MPD (i.e., Sybil, 3 Faces of Eve, and Primal Fear), it seems that the various personalities seem to know one another and their histories. Sometimes they are afraid of the more destructive ones and protective over the weak ones. Using Primal Fear as an example of where Edward Norton's character fooled the psychologist, his violent personality actually talked about the stutterer. Usually though, when another one takes over (as a result of a specific stimulus), the actor will phy ically let you know by some action (jerking about as if possessed or curling up into a fetal position). Lisa Z was just being subtle here. She didn't want to tip us off!! ;-D OK, let's talk about my favorite actress Lisa Blount!! What a talent! In the nine years since she played the trashy bimbo in Officer and a Gentleman, look at how her range has expanded!

(Bethan).. he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". Every man picks his job,Colin. ****** I was looking at the 3 DOR program today and I see that among his film credits CF neglects to mention P and FF!! Don't blame him. ***** these entities sometimes are, or can be made to be, aware of the others, but does that mean that they just know that the others are there, or do they have a total understanding of the other's personality? I thought the FAQ on MPD said that one persona doesn't know about the other... Does the core person have any control over which persona is taking over?

...but the screenwriters haven't read the FAQ! Their knowledge of MPD is probably based on the Sally Fields' movie they remember from TV. ;-D

(Bethan)...he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". Maybe he made that discovery AFTER doing Femme Fatale... (Evelyn) I thought...that one persona doesn't know about the other... ...does the core person have any control over which persona is taking over? Initially, each doesn't know about the others. The purpose of therapy is to introduce all the entities to each other and ultimately hope to integrate them into a whole. Some entities may do this on their own. Another page under the same site is somewhat enlightening. There is often a "gatekeeper" entity which does not appear itself but regulates "who" comes and goes. Also says that the core person often NEVER appears...it is buried deep and is being protected from trauma by all the others. Descript ons of the various types of "alters" (atrociously written, but fascinating) is at: http://members.aol.com/BoyyM/Alters.html (I suspect that various alters of the author write different pages of this site!) Then lighten up with this page and its ilk (use links at the end for others: http://members.aol.com/BoyyM/Hotline.html (Hee hee) :-D

There is often a "gatekeeper" entity which does not appear itself but regulates "who" comes and goes. Aw c'mon...are ya' pulling my leg?

He was quoted a couple of years back in the British press saying that the part he disliked most about his work was sex scenes because he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". !!! If I didn't know enough about the way some (most?) press reports are concocted, I'd say - what a prat! But I imagine he must have been pestered for a "story", an interesting comment, something saucy... Come on, Colin, give us a good quote...! And voila. I guess it made him squirm later.

(Bethan) He was quoted a couple of years back in the British press saying that the part he disliked most about his work was sex scenes because he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". !!! Hee, hee! Thanks for this, Bethan, I've never seen it before. Of course he'd retract it now that his 'rumpy pumpy' days appear to be, at least for the time being, over. (Karen) Lisa Z was just being subtle here. She didn't want to tip us off!! ;-D You mean it was her abundance of talent, right ;-P ? I read she played a girlfriend of George Clooney's character in ER a few seasons ago. I have no recollection--and I've not seen her in anything else that I can think of. Has anyone? Same for Lisa Blount. Guess a whole new crop of bimbos has come along to take her roles! (KJArt) As to the reasons why Joe left that community and doing art were probably as suggested...his art wasn't selling and he had to leave it and do something else for some dependable income (I can vouch personally for that situation...!! :-D) This is very plausible but doesn't explain why he would stop painting all together. I believe it was posted earlier that Joe lacked the confidence Elijah seemed to have, so when his work didn't sell, Joe likely figured it was because he wasn't any good. That would explain his answer to Cynthia when she pursued his promise to start painting again (end of bedroom scene): "Why?"

(Lynda) Ed tells Joe, "in Vancouver, she (Maura) receives from Dino $112.000 in exchange for this aforementioned blue flight bag". The bits of dialogue that have gone in one ear and out the other! Thanks Lynda. OK, so Dino's a Canadian godfather; however, Ted and Ed seem to be based in LA. They give Jenny a lift back after their visit to Camp Nature Center. (Shouldn't it have been Centre on the sign if Canada?) (Eileen) She wasn't a danger to herself or others What about with scissors? ;-D (Karen) This trip to LA is an eye-opener for him and is forcing him to come out of his cocoon (Eileen)You mean insofar as his search for Cynthia and exposure to her complicated past, right? I prefer to think that the cocoon image is Joe, not Cynthia. She's not hibernating in the woods or asleep, but he is. The symbolic representation of Cynthia is that portrait he did, behind the sectioned panes of glass (get it?!). Even when he comes to LA, he is still asleep. He persists in believing and telling people that "they were happy." After the Waste Gallery, where he sees himself wrapped up like that (most likely just in his mind's eye as Evelyn suggested), he is disturbed by that real zation. In his drunken speech to Elijah, he says: "She descended upon me while I was sleeping to steal my soul." He goes through phrases of change as does the silk moth (larva, pupa, adult imago). The more he learns about her, the closer he gets to the adult stage and emerging from the chrysalis. Joe begins to emerge or "wake up" literally and figuratively in the cemetery after having had the gun shot off in his mouth. (Hmm, must think about the moth with no mouth and his having the gun in his mouth.) There of course he finds the cocoon, shakes it (hee hee) and brings it back to Elijah's. Elijah even accuses Joe of "hiding in the woods" and Joe agrees. Major epiphanies here: he didn't know what he wanted; she made him feel less alone; he felt he was a superior thing, better than the world and above all the bullshit. He is facing the reality of himself now. As he reads the scholarly lit about MPD (Sybil), we see the adult moth on the nightstand. Do we see any other moths or butterflies anywhere el e or with another character? It's with Joe and it's right before he goes off to confront Dr. Beaumont. Joe is out and my Prince has arrived. (OK, maybe not as good as the pearls. ;-D ) (Lynda) "I don't know...just hide a crack in the wall."... Maybe Joe's lack of belief in his talent (because his art wasn't selling?) is why he quit painting. (KJArt) his art wasn't selling and he had to leave it and do something else for some dependable income The "hide a crack in the wall" comment is cynicism. Yes, he probably left because his art didn't sell and junk like Elijah's did. However, I don't think he ever lost faith in his talent. He withdrew because of the superior attitude that "they didn't appreciate me." Very typical. I can understand that one. Was thinking about Joe and Cynthia's nature walks in the grocery store. Isn't it interesting that she invented a game where you made up histories about people just from looking at them? ;-D

There is often a "gatekeeper" entity which does not appear itself but regulates "who" comes and goes. (Evelyn) Aw c'mon...are ya' pulling my leg? At that "Alters" link they (He?/She?/It?) discuss both the "gatekeeper" alter and the core personality plus others. To repeat: http://members.aol.com/BoyyM/Alters.html

Thanks Karen, for the Cocoon analogy....Gives me more to think about....Have to view it again. ***** KJArt...who are these people at MPD website? Anybody a health-care professional. Or are they just "Friends of MPDs". ***** OK...Who won the "shag-fight" on #113??

(Eileen)Of course he'd retract it now that his 'rumpy pumpy' days appear to be, at least for the time being, over. You mean, he doesn't enjoy it any more? At least for the time being? ;-P

think I need to kick start this topic. ;-D

--Ooooohhhoooommm! Um, yes. Leads into my personally-claimed scene, if I'm not mistaken. Wearing "my" sweater, too!! 8-) I love the close embrace, forehead to forehead that locks the rest of the world out!! Stop bemoaning, Colin!! No one can play the hopeless romantic as well as you. Wooo!

Oh my, it's the look he gets in his eye in this scene. It's so full of affection it makes me melt. Karen, you know how to pick 'em - I feel suitably jumped ;-)

Look at that dimple! OK, so he's a tad moony here. I don't have any complaints. ;-D

(Karen)Look at that dimple! I'm looking i'm drooling, girl. Oh Man! *hot flashes*

Maybe he doesn't want to do any more hopeless romantics because everytime he does, he keeps getting drool-soaked!! Yuk! 8-D

No, it's probably because one of the Fiennes bros. usually gets the girl. ;-D

Theoretically, he reads the scripts for these things BEFORE he signs them. Therefore, that sort of thing should come as no surprise. No, the problem is that he has discovered the efficacy of his incomparable moony expession on women of a certain age with Volvos and Labradors and has decided enough is enough! Being damp for too long a time results in a sore throat or worse!! Upon his doctor's advice, therefore, he must scrap the moony expressions in future. (*SOB*) :-D

Look at that dimple! Dimple and cleft in one shot! Can hardly contain myself. Even so, if we'd see a "moony" snappy of Joe next to a "smoldering" snappy of Darcy, which do you think would win? No contest for me. So if he wants to ditch "moony", that's fine with me as long as he still goes for the smoke.

I don't care what roles he does in the future...he'll never take Mr. Darc away from me (as much as he might want to.) But.... ( KJArt)....No, the problem is that he has discovered the efficacy of his incomparable moony expression on women of a certain age with Volvos and Labradors and has decided enough is enough! You might have something there....hates to build on that "hunk" reputation.

Are we still discussing FF? Or has it run its course?

Please excuse a diversion or two. I get distracted by lovely snappies. Isn't the video box cover really cheesy? Surpassed only by the Incredible Hul lurking in the background in the Playmaker box. We see Maura, legs up in the air as she puts on her fishnets with a superimposed Joe watching over her looking not moony but what...despairing? introspective? There's no decent pic of him in the photos on the back either. Unfortunately it's the cemetary scene.

(Heide) Isn't the video box cover really cheesy? Must have been designed by members of the Waste Gallery. I'll bet there were a few disappointed renters (buyers) of this video. I liked the way the camera seemed often to focus on CF's non-verbal acting in FF; at least, the W/D appreciated the specialness of CF's talent, which kind of went missing in SIL. I wonder what the Chicago reviewer would think of Joe's rigidity in the lovemaking scene?

(Heide)...if he wants to ditch "moony", that's fine with me as long as he still goes for the smoke. Didn't we all rejoice when CF finally gave up smoking? Maybe it was symbolic! (Hee hee).

Incidentally, several people appreciated it when Joe "went American" when he was talking about drinking the beer, but did anyone notice Cynthia teasing him by going Brit? -- "Who are you calling a taht?"

...Joe's rigidity in the lovemaking scene Hee hee!

(KJ) Didn't we all rejoice when CF finally gave up smoking? Maybe it was symbolic! (Hee hee). Bite your tongue, girl! Heaven forbid if we never see him smolder again. did anyone notice Cynthia teasing him by going Brit? -- "Who are you calling a taht?" Heck, I thought that was a Hahvahd Yahd routine. So if Cynthia turns back into Elizabeth is Joe going to have to get her a wheelchair?

(Eileen) Are we still discussing FF? Or has it run its course? Yes. No. ;-D (but then again, I never want these discussions to end...) (Evelyn) Thanks Karen, for the Cocoon analogy. Gives me more to think about. So what do you think? Also, what about the painting of Cynthia? Or am I just stating the obvious here? ;-D (Jana2) Oh my, it's the look he gets in his eye in this scene. It's so full of affection it makes me melt. Your comment made me think of something. Throughout that entire scene, couldn't you tell that Joe was on the brink of a proposal? He really wanted to get out of the store. "Are we done yet?" It looked like he was just waiting for a suitable spot to ask her, but when she swung her caboose down that aisle, he was a goner!! (Heide) Isn't the video box cover really cheesy? Surpassed only by the Incredible Hulk lurking in the background in the Playmaker box. Let us not forget the cover of The Advocate, with the boob-fondling mystery man. Colin's not even on it! (Heide) We see Maura, legs up in the air as she puts on her fishnets with a superimposed Joe watching over her looking not moony but what...despairing? introspective? He's psychologically analyzing the fishnets. Let's see, he's talked himself blue in the face trying to convince everyone that he loves her, she loves him and that he can make her normal. ;-D (Lynda) I wonder what the Chicago reviewer would think of Joe's rigidity in the lovemaking scene? I may not be "the" but I am "a" Chicago reviewer. ;-) One of my favorite parts of that scene (aside from that *look* and the sweat dripping off his body while in the seated/vertical position) is when he is covering her back with kisses. Ooooh wheee!! Can this guy act? I am getting major tingling sensations through the television set. (KJ) but did anyone notice Cynthia teasing him by going Brit? -- "Who are you calling a taht?" Yes, adorable. Never looked at it as reciprocal, but yes it would be. (Heide) So if Cynthia turns back into Elizabeth is Joe going to have to get her a wheelchair? Thinking of the practical again, are we? Daddy can drop it off when he visits his daughter(s). ;-p

(Heide)...Heaven forbid if we never see him smolder again. Yeh, but you gotta dye him dark first! You know how he hates coming across as "petulant" ;-) (Heide) So if Cynthia turns back into Elizabeth is Joe going to have to get her a wheelchair? (Karen) Daddy can drop it off when he visits his daughter(s). ;-p Excellent solution to a stickly problem, Karen! What worries me is what Elija's going to have to bring when she turns into Maura. (Hee hee) (Karen) Also, what about the painting of Cynthia? Or am I just stating the obvious here? ;-D The obvious what? Sorry, whatever it is it ain't that obvious....(Don't mind me, my mind wanders every now and

(Karen) Throughout that entire scene, couldn't you tell that Joe was on the brink of a proposal? He really wanted to get out of the store. "Are we done yet?" Something new to ponder. Scene looks that way to me too. He hadn't intended to propose to her in front of the orange juice. Probably had something much more romantic in mind. I must admit it played pretty romantic the way it was done. Wonder if there was an engagement ring. We never really see them as a married couple except for their wedding day. Any ring(s) visible? Anybody notice if Joe wears a wedding ring while in LA? I like to know these small details. what about the painting of Cynthia? Well let's see...she's trying to tell Joe she thinks he's a lousy painter? ;-) Or when she slips into Elizabeth/Maura or whoever she was when she fled, she doesn't recognize this girl in the picture so slashes her rival in a fit of jealousy? ;-) ;-) I'm just trying to think of something other than the obvious.

(Heide) Wonder if there was an engagement ring... Anybody notice if Joe wears a wedding ring while in LA? Cynthia left only a wedding ring with the note, so IMO, no engagement ring. Joe does wear his ring throughout the whole movie. I think the obvious is correct re the slashed painting; Cynthia hates herself. Did we ever decide which persona walked out of the cabin? I think it was Cynthia; she loved Joe too much to inflict her sickness on him. She had some awareness that she was f***ed up, because she offered to change at the end. Re the note: was it referring to Joe or to Cynthia herself? (Heide) I know our boy is a lover not a fighter but I think I could even have protected myself a bit better. I was thinking the same thing the first time I watched FF, but Joe is a gentle soul, probably never hit anyone in his life. When it comes to Hollywood films, we are so brainwashed into believing that all men (and particularly leading men) can fight off hordes single-handedly. Joe turning into Arnie would have been phony. But those two scenes with the baddies are hard to watch. Other favourite lines: Joe to Elijah "...grooming the rabbits, exercising the tree frogs." (I like the thing CF does with his fingers there - cute).. Elijah:"It's (love) an illusion to keep people reproducing. So it's a psychological hard-on." and seconds later, to Andrea, "Touche". (Karen) ...when he is covering her back with kisses. The trail of kisses is beautiful - loving, gentle, so giving, just what poor Cynthia needed.

OK this is what I meant about the picture, I posted it a few days ago: The symbolic representation of Cynthia is that portrait he did, behind the sectioned panes of glass (get it?!) Just like the father said: "she's one person who has walled off different aspects of her personality." Ironic how Joe painted her precisely how the father described her. (Heide) Any ring(s) visible? Lynda is quite right on the ring thing. Initially I thought we had storyline problem here because she would have shown up at home with a wedding ring and Daddy might see it and wonder. Then, Joe keeps it with the wedding pictures and you see Cynthia fingering it when Joe goes to talk to Daddy. (Lynda) Did we ever decide which persona walked out of the cabin? Good question!! My initial feelings would be Elizabeth, but she prefers not to walk and pretend she is paralyzed. :( Re the note: was it referring to Joe or to Cynthia herself? I thought she was referring to Joe. Just as her father mentioned later that her other personalities would not know him if he walked into a room.

Still thinking about the painting of Cynthia... (Karen)The symbolic representation of Cynthia is that portrait he did, behind the sectioned panes of glass (get it?!) Just like the father said: "she's one person who has walled off different aspects of her personality." Ironic how Joe painted her precisely how the father described her. But Joe didn't know about her different personalities when he was painting the picture. Dr. Beaumont told him later. Do you think the different panes of glass somehow signify a perception he had about her unknown and disturbed background,("people always wanted pieces of me..." which later materialized into multiple personalities.Remember he asked her to close the window so he could continue painting.

(Evelyn) But Joe didn't know about her different personalities when he was painting the picture. Dr. Beaumont told him later. Right, but sometime artists see things differently about a person. Why else would he have her pose behind a window? Without knowing it, he did paint her likeness? A splintered personality. Sections of a person hidden behind something.

Karen, you amaze me. You can find symbolism in a Coke can but nine times out of ten you're dead on. I like your idea of the sectioned or fractured personalities of Cynthia. Joe didn't know it but we are being hit on the head with it though it takes a few knocks for me to see it. (Evelyn) the different panes of glass somehow signify a perception he had about her unknown and disturbed background,("people always wanted pieces of me..." This is perfectly plausible too. I like the "pieces"/panes connection. And he had her behind a window because he could never really touch her, never really know her. HAH!!! We could go on and on. (Lynda) Cynthia left only a wedding ring with the note, so IMO, no engagement ring Missed it or forgot it. I'm going to you next time for the details, Lynda. Like your quote selection. I like a lot of Elijah's dialogue and again, must reiterate my fondness for the buddy relationship in this film.

I've re-watched the opening wedding scene several times....there is an older couple on the left. After the ceremony Joe shakes hand with the man and kisses the lady in a perfunctory manner giving the impression they are parents of the bride.Had she been his mum who came over from UK he would have kissed and hugged her more warmly, IMO. Still thinking of that picture....if Joe suspected she had a splintered personality by painting her in that manner...why was he so surprised when she left him. And why did he look so shocked when Dr. Beaumont gave credence to his suspicions.("Aha...I thought so" would have been more like it)

(Heide) And he had her behind a window because he could never really touch her, never really know her. HAH!!! We could go on and on. Go on!! And Evelyn's comment about how he closed the window on her? (Evelyn) if Joe suspected she had a splintered personality by painting her in that manner No, it wasn't a conscious thing for him. (KJ, help me-explain how and what an artist sees) I think he saw her and for some reason felt that painting her behind that sectioned glass window was right. Maybe he felt deep down that she was hiding behind something. He didn't say anything. Remember when he was in the pool with Elijah and realized that he knew nothing of her background. But his feelings of not knowing her and that she was a mystery to him came through in that portrait.

All this symbolism - very interesting. So why do we think this is a poor film, instead of a decent movie with some iffy bits in it? Speaking of symbolism, I like the juxtaposition of Maura's corpse-like eyes (and using the word corpse in the dialogue at that moment) with Joe's natural, alive ones; the juxtaposition of the ugly and degraded art of the Waste Gallery and the beauty and love in Joe's painting of Cynthia. Destruction vs. Creation. Obvious, I guess, but effective.

(Karen) Throughout that entire scene, couldn't you tell that Joe was on the brink of a proposal? Oh yeah. At first I thought he had another motive, since she got him all hot and bothered with that "taht" kiss (agree she was teasing him about his accent). (Heide) And he had her behind a window because he could never really touch her, never really know her. I had the same initial thoughts about the window. But as you say, Karen's right on target with her interpretation. It makes sense insofar as intended symbolism (along with the coccoon business). I agree with Evelyn, Joe doesn't realize something's not right with her until he's forced to, during his search. It also took me a while to make the Wagner connection--why Cynthia holds her hands over her ears and claims the music gives her a headache. Repressed memories of Maura with the fork! I watched (most of) FF again last week and have to disagree, Karen, with your interpretation of why Joe stopped painting. IMO he doesn't think he's good enough, not the reverse. It comes down to his reaction when Cynthia asks him to paint again. The way he responds "why?" doesn't convince me he's become jaded. If he were, perhaps he would have said "why bother?" instead. I also think of Joe as essentially naive, sweet (a natural target for all you succubi out there;-)) and therefore can't make him cyn cal at the same time. I also realized what had thrown me off about this movie. I somehow thought Cynthia was really Maura faking Cynthia (follow?) to hide from Dino et al. It was the "I never had a home" Marilyn Monroe speech that made me think along these lines (I assumed she purposely lied to him about her past, using a story she was familiar with), along with the succubus theme (evil woman steals soul of innocent man). Guess I missed the point of seeing all the individual personalities displayed on Dr. Beaumont's video. (Heide) Any ring(s) visible? (Karen) Lynda is quite right on the ring thing. Yes, she is. I was looking carefully because in the end, when she's Elizabeth, there is a ring on her finger as she opens the envelope with the wedding pictures (thought it was a continuity problem). The ring's on her middle finger, though. (Lynda) Did we ever decide which persona walked out of the cabin? (Karen)Good question!! My initial feelings would be Elizabeth, but she prefers not to walk and pretend she is paralyzed And it was a long walk (hitch, most likely, unless the bus route goes through the woods--or better yet, "taxi!") back to LA. (Lynda) I think it was Cynthia; she loved Joe too much to inflict her sickness on him. One would think she could bail out before the wedding, then. But she's a superego personality. Maybe that solution never occurred to her. (Lynda) So why do we think this is a poor film, instead of a decent movie with some iffy bits in it I see your point but still think the movie could have been a whole lot better if they skipped the iffy bits and unneccessary subplots. But in the immortal words of Paul Ashworth, "we all have our reasons for loving things the way we do..."

(Eileen)It also took me a while to make the Wagner connection--why Cynthia holds her hands over her ears and claims the music gives her a headache. Repressed memories of Maura with the fork! The Wagner theme from the boom-box while he is painting is the same background music from Jenny Purge's film: "Rite of Passage".It brings on her headache.But when Elijah and Joe are watching the film...the music brings back to Joe the recollections of the painting event. ***** (Karen)....Re: the Painting...But his feelings of not knowing her and that she was a mystery to him came through in that portrait I'll buy that...Karen. When artists paint they see things differently...because a different part of their brain is activitated...the emotional part, not just the visual part which everyone uses when they see an object/person. Soooo Joe in employing his emotional brain was painting her behind a window didn't know her at all because those were his subliminal feelings. Did I get it right? **** I think this is a lousy film because the stupid sub-plot and supporting actors are so poor. IMO except for Dr. Beaumont...none of them are believable. ***** Let's get back to more impt. things like the verical shagging scene...:-)

(Evelyn) Did I get it right? No right or wrong answers here. (although Eileen is all wet about what caused Joe to stop painting!!) But for extra credit... ;-p Didn't even notice the music being the same. But it make sense. Am I going to have to watch this again? Oh noooooooooooooooo!!!! (Evelyn) Let's get back to more impt. things like the verical shagging scene...:-) I continue to replay in my imagination (entire brain working diligently) the back kissing part.

(Lynda) So why do we think this is a poor film, instead of a decent movie with some iffy bits in it? Evelyn has coined the perfect answer for this one! ;-D It went something along these lines: "By the time we finish with this, people will wonder why it didn't win an Academy Award!"

(evelyn) When artists paint they see things differently...because a different part of their brain is activitated...the emotional part, not just the visual part which everyone uses when they see an object/person For the Esoteric among you: http://www.physiol.ox.ac.uk/~rcm/pem/index.htm

(Eileen)...why Joe stopped painting. IMO he doesn't think he's good enough, not the reverse. It comes down to his reaction when Cynthia asks him to paint again. Very perceptive of you , Eileen. I tend to agree. He seemed entirely surprised at her urging him to start again, and looked very doubtful when she told him he was good. (Karen) (KJ, help me-explain how and what an artist sees) Can't...No two artists see things in quite the same way. Gives a lot of room for for debate.... (Lynda) Did we ever decide which persona walked out of the cabin? (Lynda) I think it was Cynthia; she loved Joe too much to inflict her sickness on him. Can't agree here...I doubt the conscious Cynthia "believed in" the others quite yet. And Cynthia wouldn't react violently by cutting up the picture. I'm inclined to think it was Maura (who WAS aware of Elizabeth and only had contempt for her) or a persona much like her. Remember, there was one entity in the video that was nameless? And I'm sure that we haven't been introduced to the full panoply...it could have been another one we aren't aware of (probably one who can hike well...) ;-D None of them w uld know Joe either...

(KJArt) I'm inclined to think it was Maura Elizabeth can't walk and Baby can't get out of the fetal position. This leaves Cynthia and Maura, or, as you pointed out it could have been another one we aren't aware of (probably one who can hike well...). IMO Maura wouldn't have taken the time to leave a note and would've hocked the ring for cigarettes :-P I vote for the unknown hiker. But more than likely it's just another loophole in the plot.

(Eileen) Re: "I don't know who you are..." note Maura wouldn't have taken the time to leave a note and would've hocked the ring for cigarettes ".. True, but it's only Maura of the three we know that would have slashed the painting. ***** Re: The cocoon. Elijah says to Joe "Go home. Go to bed. Go hide. It's what you're good at.." Agree that the moth is Joe..."I was hiding..." (in denial?)."She made me feel less alone". I can't give up". In the next scene you see Joe calling Dr. B. back and the camera goes to the moth which is emerging from the cocoon. A turn in the life of Joe. The cemetery ordeal IMO was the turning point!! Agree with Karen on this one. ***** A Darcy moment: As he walks about the trashed apt. " Sorry, Elijah...I never should have gotten you involved in this one"...Same determined tone of voice as when he told Mr. Gardiner..."It was my fault.....I must insist on this..I will not give way.." ****** I like Elijah's selection of hats!!

(Eileen)...Maura wouldn't have taken the time to leave a note and would've hocked the ring for cigarettes ".. I vote for the unknown hiker. But more than likely it's just another loophole in the plot. Excellent analysis all the way ...I agree ... especially the part about the loophole. But then that only leaves an huge opening for our own invention ... and we are better at that, I believe, than at the analysis!!! ;-)

OT: who was it that "just" saw ATA a few days ago? Coz I just did! I unexpectedly ran into it at Blockbusters (you wouldn't believe the name they gave it in portuguese: "Friends and rivals"!), brought it home and saw it immediately. CF looks gorgeous! Tall and thin, his wonderful walk, the expressive face... Only less than perfect thing is his voice... somewhat flat, like in 3DoR. And of course the fact that he is seldom on screen, as you all have said.

(Lynda) Joe is a gentle soul, probably never hit anyone in his life. When it comes to Hollywood films, we are so brainwashed into believing that all men (and particularly leading men) can fight off hordes single-handedly. Actually, I thought Joe's punch was one of Colin's better ones. He really puts his arm into it, not like The Advocate!! (a girlie swing if I've ever seen one) Of course, overlooking baddie with shovel as potentially dangerous we could chalk up to lack of sleep, hasn't been to bathroom yet, etc. (Lynda) Joe turning into Arnie would have been phony. Agreed. Would take away from the realism of rest of movie. ;-D (Lynda) I like the juxtaposition of Maura's corpse-like eyes...with Joe's natural, alive ones Excellent observation on the symbolism. Hadn't noticed that before. Lots in this movie. Whenever I see the closeup of Maura's eyes on that poster, they remind me of Theda Bara. (Eileen) IMO he doesn't think he's good enough, not the reverse. At Elijah's he makes the offhand comment about Elijah's work still selling like hotcakes. There's a note of astonishment/disbelief in his voice. Seems to me (promise I won't belabor the point) that both he and Elijah know that Joe is the more talented of the two. The fact that Joe's work failed to sell could only be reconciled in my mind by an attitude of "they don't understand my work or appreciate it." Remember, he did confess (after the eye-opening cemetery scene) that he tended to think of himself as a superior human being and didn't need anyone. I'm done. We can disagree amicably on this point. (Eileen) But more than likely it's just another loophole in the plot. Speaking of which, how long would it take to drive from Vancouver (if that's where it is set) to LA? Anybody know? Long enough for the black eye to fade? Another: Joe doesn't seem to think anything so unusual about a woman so well-dressed in the woods at the beginning - and it didn't look like a Maura outfit to me. A fav scene: At the morgue, the camera pans up on Joe, who is wearing tight jeans, t-shirt and open shirt. Look carefully at the t-shirt. His chest appears to be stuck out and you can make out his pecs. Nice definition! ;-D This would explain how Joe is so easily able to lift Elizabeth out of her wheelchair in one swooosh motion!! Best prop: Elijah's water squirter

Gi, it was Elena who just saw ATA. Also, I'd say Colin's on screen maybe 75% of the time. He just doesn't say much. ;-D

(Gi) Tall and thin, his wonderful walk, the expressive face... Ah, Gi! You saw it too? Yes, I bumped into it last week. Great to hear from someone to whom ATA is still fresh stuff, I�m afraid these other gals have seen it already too many times to remember the first and the best drooly impulses that Jess inspired... ;-)

ATA. Also, I'd say Colin's on screen maybe 75% of the time. He just doesn't say much. ;-D A good-looking -potted- palm!!! I really think we should do ATA next...since so many have seen it recently. ***** Question on FF.... Who got the money at the end? Dino tasted the cocaine, was the money in the blue flight bag he throws to Ed? If so why is Ed telling Jenny that he's out $50,000.?Cynthia told Joe she only had $15. in her purse. **** It's a long way from LA to Vancouver..but black eyes last about a week.

(Elena) I�m afraid these other gals have seen it already too many times to remember the first and the best drooly impulses that Jess inspired... ;-) Oh nooooooo!! C'mon, when that white-shirted back moves across the screen and he has to bend down to kiss MP.... I remember it well. I also remember the jogging and the leaning in doorway and .... ;-p

Ahhhhh, I remember it well

Now back to our regularly scheduled film: Didn't someone say something about liking him in the black leather jacket and the sleeveless tank top? ;-D

Didn't someone say something about liking him in the black leather jacket and the sleeveless tank That was me!! But I like the black sleeveless he wears while chewing celery and waiting for Dr. Beaumont's office to call. (Evelyn) Who got the money at the end? Dino tasted the cocaine, was the money in the blue flight bag he throws to Ed? If so why is Ed telling Jenny that he's out $50,000.? Have no idea. Lynda, you're the go-to girl on these details. Maybe after lying around outside for three months in Vancouver weather, coke will lose its fizz? ;-)

(Karen)...how long would it take to drive to Vancouver from L/A.? ????It's about 1400 mi. Depends on how crazy a driver you are, I guess. But I had no impression it was set in Vancouver (and as a matter of fact I recognized several spots from Griffith Park where they were "living"). But I got the feeling they implied the drive would take overnight (Remember, Joe had only been married 3 days when he showed up at Elijah's door). I'd suggest somewhere in Central to Northern CA and was a long days' drive to LA.

(Karen)I'd say Colin's on screen maybe 75% of the time. He just doesn't say much. ;-D 75% of the time? No way: that is because nowadays you only see his scenes ;-) (Evelyn)A good-looking -potted- palm!!! I really think we should do ATA next...since so many have seen it recently. But a potted palm that sways so gracefully... I'd love to do ATA soon, but I believe Apartment 0 is scheduled next, isn't it? Otherwise, Elena and I can always go to some other forgotten topic and slobber about this ;-p

Why do you have to go anywhere else? Was FF unavailable to you? Not in PAL? Same with AZ?

(Karen) At Elijah's he makes the offhand comment about Elijah's work still selling like hotcakes. There's a note of astonishment/disbelief in his voice. Seems to me... that both he and Elijah know that Joe is the more talented of the two. I'm with you so far. The fact that Joe's work failed to sell could only be reconciled in my mind by an attitude of "they don't understand my work or appreciate it." Remember, he did confess (after the eye-opening cemetery scene) that he tended to think of himself as a superior human being and didn't need anyone I see your point but for me, it just doesn't work with the rest of his character (sweet, unassuming, etc.). I must still be stuck on that whole succubus thing :-D We can disagree amicably on this point Agreed! You say potato, I say potahto...whatever. (Heide) But I like the black sleeveless he wears while chewing celery and waiting for Dr. Beaumont's office to call. Ditto! Don't you love the way he runs and lunges for the phone? (Evelyn) Who got the money at the end? Good question. Perhaps Ed was counting what he would have had if the drugs had been sold? Lynda?? (KJArt)I'd suggest somewhere in Central to Northern CA and was a long days' drive to LA. That's what I always thought. (Gi)75% of the time? No way: that is because nowadays you only see his scenes ;-) Hee hee! I haven't watched this one in a while, but I tend to use that fast forward button more than the rewind button! I would love to discuss ATA (have always had a question about why they dubbed over Jess' opening scene. His lips don't say "it's the Cook girls!"). But will defer to those in line ahead of me.

I have really been enjoying your discussion of FF. I have not been joining in because of lack of time and the fact that I no longer have a copy of it. But,Karen,I would love to see a snappy of one scene which always sticks in my mind. Colin is sitting in what looks like a children's paddling pool. When he gets out he stands and teeters on the side of the pool before getting out. It is the only real close up of his (unclothed) legs that I can remember. Very distinctive legs they are too.

Very distinctive legs they are too. I agree his legs are rather distinctive, Allison. And as he climbs the stairs, I'd say rather bow legged. There've been many "important" discussions on those legs but not among the ladies of this group, at least as long as I've been here. I know I'm bringing the discussion waaaaaay down but I promise we'll delete this from our general discussion whenever we move it to colinfirth.com.

but I promise we'll delete this from our general discussion whenever we move it to colinfirth.com. And why, pray? :-)) Are you trying to give everyone the wrong impression of us? I agree his legs are rather distinctive, I do not claim to be an expert in all the works of CF but FF has the only example of a full frontal display of the unadorned CF legs. In FP and HOTPig, I recall delightful visions of the rear of his legs (and more...) but only in FF is there a view of them from the front. It is therefore unique in the Firth oeuvre.

(Allison) full frontal display of the unadorned CF legs. full front legs! That's a new one. ;-D Will have to pop in FP and ff to the scene where he gets out of bed (grey shorts) and walks into kitchen to have a little think. Thought we got to see the FFL in that one... or do you mean if it's cut off at the knee, it doesn't count? (Allison) Are you trying to give everyone the wrong impression of us? Absolutely! ;-D

This is the sleeveless outfit he wore whilst eating celery, I believe:

By Jove,you've got it!, she shrieks. I think he's even chewing! (Allison) Are you trying to give everyone the wrong impression of us? Well I thought we might be able to fool some people into thinking we're sober film critters interested only in discussing all components of a film, not just that fella sitting there with his arms and legs exposed. But you're right...we can't fool anybody. (Karen) Will have to pop in FP and ff to the scene where he gets out of bed (grey shorts) and walks into kitchen to have a little think. And he looks bow legged in that scene too! What about the rear view of Ross as he walks away from the shower? Do we see the calves there? I know we don't see the front of his legs or we'd be seeing more than R-rated material at that point. I also say he looks bowlegged as he runs up the stairs after Lizzy's refusal of his hand at Hunsford. Hmmmm....I'll have to study the loch scene very closely when I finally get to see MLSF.

He is not, repeat, NOT bow-legged. His long bony thighs have strong, gently arching muscles (from horseriding, I guess) and as he walks in that lolloping, loose-jointed fashion, his toes point firmly forward and it somewhow gives an impression of slight bow-leggedness, but if you look carefully, his legs are really straight. And what a lovely pair indeed! Yum! (Only the last remark may be removed from the edited version. ;-))

I'll buy that. Just as I'll buy the notion that his hair's not thinning, it just looks that way when wet.

Ah, well... his hair... His hair, Louisa, erm, Heide, is another, completely different matter, I'm afraid...

Full frontal legs you want, full frontal legs you get!! Thanks to Sharon who Snappied them especially for us and to Murph, who passed them along to me. I've blown it up and cropped out as best I could, with this awful result. There is one more shot from Sharon as he's coming through the doorway, but that hasn't transferred well. We are still working on it.

Thanks Sharon, Murph and Karen.... Are those the same thighs we all know and love from P&P? I know he was a little heavier in P&P...but they must have padded them... thighs that is:-)

Must they? I wouldn't be so sure. There's a difference of about 4 years. He already looked quite heavy in Master of the Moor. I don't subscribe to the padding of the thighs theory: they were wrapped in good quality material made to look exactly like the period stuff. And the breeches were made of doe skin, a kind of suede.

Who cares about the trousers, its what is in them that counts:-)) Thank you so much Karen, Sharon, Murph. I have a theory that CF's weight does not vary much, its just that he has a squarish face which can look a little...well, jowly from certain angles and particularly when he is wearing a tight ruff. I think his body is always very slim. His legs were still slim in FP.

I have a theory that CF's weight does not vary much...I think his body is always very slim. I agree, Allison. IMO he's long and lanky with not an ounce to spare. He hasn't looked otherwise in anything I've seen. In fact, he looked almost too thin in ATA (especially in those baggy jeans). When I first saw it two years ago I wanted to shout "Livia! More pasta!"

But have you seen Master of the Moor? He never really looks puffed up, but sometimes even a few ounces seem to make difference. Though mostly it's to do with his chameleon quality, the way he carries himself and the effect of various costumes, of course.

I thought he looked a little chunky in TEP..in the aviator's ensemble and the tuxedo scene.One didn't see his legs, of course, (unlike RF). But his chest and neck looked bigger.

Right - who out of the next Donmar expedition company will be the brave one to ask him politely how he does it and if he finds it easy to control his weight, etc., you know, that kind of thing... :-)?

Wasn't that one of the questions we faxed to his agent in London? How much weight did he gain for SiL? ;-D

And what is your success? :-)

(Allison)I have a theory that CF's weight does not vary much...I think his body is always very slim. (Eileen)... he's long and lanky with not an ounce to spare. He hasn't looked otherwise in anything I've seen. I'd just seen OotB, and I was so used to his arms being slender that I was surprised to note that they looked a bit "bulked up" in that one. Also to a lesser extent in FF. I was conjecturing with Heide that maybe he had been chopping a lot of wood in the Canadian backwoods right about then... :-) (Eileen) In fact, he looked almost too thin in ATA (especially in those baggy jeans). Agreed. But it depends on the angle you see him at. (we've remarked on this before). His shoulders and chest are disproportionately broad so bulky flying jackets or padded shoulders make him look simply massive when he's coming at you. ATA illustrates it best BECAUSE he's so thin in that one...wide from the front/practically disappears when seen sideways!! ;-D

And what is your success? :-) Wot? You didn't see the answers when they were posted? :-)