{"conf": "austen", "generated_at": "2026-04-26T08:00:02.954878Z", "threads": [{"num": 0, "subject": "", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 1, "subject": "conference business", "response_count": 20, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (00:10)", "body": "Who knows, you may find a home *here*."}, {"response": 1, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (03:44)", "body": "Thank you, Terry, for the use of your hall! :-)"}, {"response": 1, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (03:45)", "body": "Thank you, Terry, for the use of your hall! :-)"}, {"response": 1, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (06:59)", "body": "Hi gang - glad to be here!"}, {"response": 1, "author": "geekman", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (07:58)", "body": "G'day Terry, Well I suppose it's about time I also voted a thanks to you for allowing this debate and maybe room on your server. And I'm a bloke too - that's Aussie for a male. Yes I'm a JA/P&P2 fanatic too."}, {"response": 1, "author": "Donna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:38)", "body": "This is great terry. You don't know what your in for. This place will be \"hottest\""}, {"response": 1, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:59)", "body": "We'll Amy, it worked, and I'm here. Thank God. Looking forward to chatting!"}, {"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:31)", "body": "Good, Rebecca. Pray tell how you accomplished it so I can know how to help others who have trouble getting in."}, {"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:33)", "body": "Actually, why don't we start a new Help topic. We can also get help at the Yapp conference but that stuff goes on a wider mailing list than just this Spring site. We could discuss our own tech troubles here then send an emissary over to post the summary at the Yapp conference. Sound okay to you guys?"}, {"response": 1, "author": "Marsha", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (12:11)", "body": "Hey, it's great to find this place-it would serve as a surrogate P&P2 board! Thanks for letting us use this- is there somewhere I could find more about using this? Great to see you all! Marsha"}, {"response": 1, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (13:08)", "body": "Amy -- \"You're a bagel-biting, toad-mashing, back-froodler!!\""}, {"response": 1, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:07)", "body": "Let me add my thanks as well for the use of this site. Mich"}, {"response": 1, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:26)", "body": "Hi Everybody. Glad to find you."}, {"response": 1, "author": "Adi", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:34)", "body": "Terry, thank you very much!, I'm very glad to be here."}, {"response": 1, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (18:30)", "body": "Terry, thank you so much for inviting us in. We were all desperate, and are happy to have found a new home."}, {"response": 1, "author": "geekman", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (18:49)", "body": "G'day, Amy I don't mind being the group's emissary as I suggested I am already the sacrificial lamb on alt.config who has proposed a Jane Austen Newsgroup. No reponses yet though."}, {"response": 1, "author": "DonnaT", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (00:31)", "body": "Thanks Terry for giving us a new home (does it come with instructions?)..."}, {"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (10:36)", "body": "Yeah, you can click on the help button. Also, when you telnet in and use your shell account, there's detailed help. Do you use telnet Amy?"}, {"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (10:54)", "body": "One bit of advice abouting posting, if you double click on the submit button you may post *two* or more copies of your response. One click of the mouse is all ya' need!"}, {"response": 1, "author": "eryn", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (15:57)", "body": "What a lovely thing - to know I am not the only person who sacrifices entire days watching A&E-PP... and that you have a home to chat .. it's almost too good to be true. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 10, "subject": "Col. Fitzwilliam", "response_count": 13, "posts": [{"response": 10, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:47)", "body": "I think the man was truly interested in Lizzie. Darcy saw this, and realized he must do something about his feelings, so he proposed."}, {"response": 10, "author": "EricB", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:17)", "body": "The Colonel does function as you suggest, Cheryl, but also provides one other purpose at least. He comments that he has heard much of Miss Elizabeth Bennet and none of the praise has been exaggerated. If this is not a rather solid hint that Darcy thinks highly of E, then nothing is. This comes along with Charlotte's noting that Darcy looks at E a great deal, etc. Given these and other statements, it becomes increasingly difficult for E to maintain her view that Darcy dislikes her. It presages the com ng marriage proposal which, were it not for Col. Fitzwilliam, would come upon us (at least in the book) quite suddenly and with almost no warning."}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:27)", "body": "I think the Colonel also serves as an upperclass counterpart to Wickham, as strange as this may seem, since they both must be \"mercenary\" in their choice of a wife. Wickham tries with Mary King of course, and fails, but I don't think Fitzwilliam would ever make a play for Lizzie, since he knows he must marry well. amy 2"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Stefanie", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:58)", "body": "I believe that another purpose which Colonel Fitzwilliam serves is to provide evidence for Darcy's letter. I know that evidence isn't the best word to use, I suppose I mean he's a witness. I don't know. My point is that Colonel Fitzwilliam is a trustworthy person who knows all of the family secrets. This way, when Lizzy reads ht eletter, she doesn't just have to take Darcy at his word, she can get it verified."}, {"response": 10, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:00)", "body": "I have a question, why did Darcy share gaurdianship of Georgian with the Colonel. That seems odd to me?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Donna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:25)", "body": "It seems to me that Col.had much faith in Mr.Darcy opinions of Miss Elizabeth Bennet. He stated them loud and clear. Lizzie duh! doesn't get. \"Elizabeth he is truely the most honorable man we/you have ever met and who has praised you to his intimate friend and cousin. Col.{who is quite charming} was there to \"spill the beans\" and to prepared us for the marriage proposal. He was also needed to back-up Mr. Darcys claim about George Wickham's character and to share information about their joint guardiansh p of Georgiana."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Saman", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:43)", "body": "I agree that the Colonel manages to perform many roles - creating jealousy, making Lizzie laugh, providing a \"character witness\" for Darcy. I know we discussed this earlier, but it occured to me again that Duckface (alright, Miss Bingley) was looking rather interested in him at the wedding - aarrgh!! Did anyone else think that the silence (after Lizzie asked Col. Fitzwilliam why Darcy was staring at her in the Parsonage parlour) was a little too long - the Colonel seemed almost too composed, as if what she said had no effect on him. Saman"}, {"response": 10, "author": "geekman", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (18:43)", "body": "G'day All, And just what was Col. Fitzwilliam doing in those woods all the time anyway? Who else was he meeting? Or was he just there to ambush Lizzy?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (20:22)", "body": "Ian -- Do you not think that the good Colonel could just have been hiding from his doting aunt? I know she concentrated her matchmaking efforts on Darcy, but I suspect that she was nosey and impertinent about Fitzwilliams' private life as well. Maybe she had some other friends (?) or relatives w/ unmarried daughters who had enough money for this younger son of an earl."}, {"response": 10, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (01:30)", "body": "es, Kathleen, you are right. I can hear Lady Catherine assuring Col. Fitz (after a long discourse on the lovely Miss Summerville with no title but such great connections and 30,000 pounds): \"Did I tell you that Sir Charles Bently called yesterday to thank me? He find the new Mrs. Bently a treasure. 'Lady Catherine', said he, 'you have given me a treasure.'\""}, {"response": 10, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (02:28)", "body": "I would so like to have been able to attach this comment to response #2... Anyway, Eric observed that the Colonel provides one other purpose at least. He comments that he has heard much of Miss Elizabeth Bennet and none of the praise has been exaggerated. If this is not a rather solid hint that Darcy thinks highly of E, then nothing is. This is true in the film, but does not occur in the book. Yet it is a good example of one way in which the film was actually able to elaborate upon and extend some of JA's characterizations in a way that is in no way bendig them out of the shape in which they were molded. And Mich, I agree that Darcy's sharing gaurdianship of Georgiana with the Colonel seems a bit contrived - the shared guardianship does serve a purpose (as mentioned above) but the way in which it has been woven into the fabric of the plot is not as seamless as are most of the other \"necessary coincidinces\". Joan, too"}, {"response": 10, "author": "geekman", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:24)", "body": "Kathleen, Yes He was hiding from Lady Catherine. But so was Darcy with his continued visits to Lizzie. Anyone as formidable as Lady Catherine would have them scurrying (Mr Collins like) as much as possible."}, {"response": 10, "author": "EricB", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (16:24)", "body": "Correct, Joan. It is not in the book. In the book that function is more frequently performed by Charlotte. Even so, the Col. does serve in the book to bring Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth into more benign conversations than they had hitherto known. As you say, the movie was actually able to elaborate upon and extend some of JA's characterizations in a way that is in no way bending them out of the shape in which they were molded. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 11, "subject": "The English Patient", "response_count": 3, "posts": [{"response": 11, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:45)", "body": "Cleo, do you know is Kirsten Scott-Thomas the same woman who was in Four Weddings and a Funeral? The pictures I've seen are to far away to make out. As for Firth, from what I've read he is very serious about acting and not caught up in being famous. He may also have the luxury other actors don't since he never seems to be out of work. So maybe it's the best of both worlds steady income without giving up privacy or dealing with all the pressure. Can you image how differently you would have to live your life if famous?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (18:21)", "body": "I just saw \"A Passionate Journey\" on Bravo - it's about the making of The English Patient. Can't wait to see the movie. The Washington Post's movie critic (who seems to hate everything) gave it a rave review today. Mich, I think you are right. Firth has enough work to keep him busy; he's not too proud to take minor parts if he feels they are right for him; and I don't think he wants any of the limelight that comes with superstardom. I've found that a lot of English actors would rather keep their privacy and let their work speak for them. More power to them, I say."}, {"response": 11, "author": "sugi", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (19:03)", "body": "I also think stardom interferes with the role actors are playing. For example whenever I watch an American movie with Mel Gibson, I always think there is Mel Gibson shooting the bad guy not the character shooting the bad guy. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 117, "subject": "Austen in Boston", "response_count": 94, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (02:46)", "body": "I will be with you in spirit (Hic!) only. Have fun!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (02:48)", "body": "I will be with you in spirit (Hic!) only. Have fun!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (22:01)", "body": "Would love it, tell where and when."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (21:39)", "body": "I'm sooo jealous, Myretta, Arnessa, et aliorum! I hope I will be able visit you all in the NE sometime soon...I really love you guys...(here we go again...)..."}, {"response": 5, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (07:01)", "body": "We hope so, too, Kali."}, {"response": 6, "author": "PaulaLovejoy", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (22:16)", "body": "Sounds like fun. I'm in Boston, let me know the particulars (where, when, etc.)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (21:16)", "body": "tssting one two"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (10:00)", "body": "Tell us more, Myretta. Who all will be there. And I will laugh again at the wetting down the dorrman thing. It is funny every time."}, {"response": 9, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (11:23)", "body": "On February 23, Sunday at 3:00 PM, Arnessa Garrett, Johanne Dagenais, Jane Amara, Laura McCarthy, Celia Downey and I will be meeting at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Boston for tea. Paula Lovejoy has also been invited, but I have not yet had her response. Johanne will be coming to Boston for the weekend and we will probably see each other before the tea. And Arnessa and I have already met. But this will be the first group meeting. I'm excited. I will borrow a digital camera to record this for posterity and the rest of you. Unfortunately, the pond in the Public Garden is drained this time of year, but we intend to wet down the doorman in order to give our photos some of the required ambiance(I know Cheryl would want us to) If there is anyone else out there who would like to join us. Please let me know."}, {"response": 10, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (13:18)", "body": "How wonderful for you all to meet! It was so great when Kali and I did the same. On the 23rd, I will sit down with a cup of tea and think of you all having such a time!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (13:21)", "body": "The Australian contingent is meeting next weekend, too and is planning an our-Saturday afternoon visit at Pemberly."}, {"response": 12, "author": "PaulaLovejoy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "I'd love to go for tea! What time--and how will we recognize each other? Regency clothes perhaps? I've sent this via private email but I'm not quite sure if I did it right so I'm answering here also. Sorry I've been on vacation so didn't respond sooner. I'm really looking forward to this! Paula"}, {"response": 13, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (17:29)", "body": "Paula, I've returned your email with details. I'm glad your coming."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "http://www.spring.com/~amy/boswinpcm.wav"}, {"response": 15, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "Oh Amy! You can sing! I love it. Thank you."}, {"response": 16, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "...Unfortunately, the pond in the Public Garden is drained this time of year, but we intend to wet down the doorman in order to give our photos some of the required ambiance(I know Cheryl would want us to) ... ROTFLOL - have an LOL'ing good time, ladies."}, {"response": 17, "author": "jane", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (08:36)", "body": "As Kali would say, Myretta, Johanne, Arnessa, Paula, Celia, and Laura are godesses! We all met for an elegant and delicious tea, and anyone watching (after the introductions) would have thought us a group of old friends. After tea, we went out for photos at the Boston Public Garden, which was very lovely as the light faded and the skyline lit up. We stood and talked and talked, and I had the sense that no one really wanted to leave, our time together had been too short. Finally the cold and late hour g t the better of us, and we parted with promises to get together again soon, with some sadness that it will be longer before we get to see Johanne again. It was extraordinary to meet people who I knew already, and with whom I have such a shared culture, for lack of a better word. A magical afternoon. To those of you without a local concentration of P&P-ers: never fear, you were part of our day---many of you were spoken of (affectionately, of course!). Jane"}, {"response": 18, "author": "bedelia", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (09:05)", "body": "Well, I guess it has been much too long since I visited this site, since I had to re-register. Now that I have met the charming ladies of Austen in Boston, I'm sure I will be a frequent visitor. What a lovely afternoon ... the time flew by much too fast, and I only hope that we will meet again in person very soon. What a wonderful thing to be with kindred spirits ... Celia"}, {"response": 19, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (10:09)", "body": "left to right: Laura, Celia, Arnessa, Paula, Myretta, Jane, Johanne and an obliging stranger who allowed us to wet him down for the occasion. Johanne will be posting more pictures later, but I wanted to share this with you all right away. It was a wonderful afternoon. Jane was right; no one wanted it to end. I expect we'll be doing it again soon."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (10:56)", "body": "What a nice picture. You all look so happy. And Myretta, your graphics wizardry is impressive. Just the right scale and everything!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (10:56)", "body": "Is that an Angel on our Shoulders or Did Colin Firth really stop by to say hi. Myretta I was not expecting these photos to be put up for a long while. But it did come out grand:)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:47)", "body": "I just figured that if the random passers-by look like that, maybe it is time to relocate!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (01:16)", "body": "Oh Sister! I finially made it here to see the picture! What a hoot! I love it! So obliging of him to allow you to WET him down, it being so cold and all. And I see that he is standing to the left of the pond...interesting... I'm so pleased you all had such a good time, I know that we were all there in spirit, but I look forward to the day when I shall see some of you in body as well! ;-)"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (01:32)", "body": "Such a merry gang! You are to be deeply envied, Ladies! Nice seeing you all, I was thinking of you on that date. And did that gentleman pass after his fencing hours? He would have been moist from the start then, even before the drooling hit him. A slight tan is hardly surprising when you are often in Los Angeles I suppose? Not brown and coarse at all, was he?"}, {"response": 25, "author": "candace", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:12)", "body": "What a wonderful day that you all had!! I cannot believe how fast you posted the picture (BTW -- you all are beautiful, as I knew you would be!). The picture that I took of Kali and myself last December hasn't even gotten processed yet -- yes, that is another of my faults, procrastination. Sorry, Kali, please don't yell at me...I will do it this week. I promise!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (05:42)", "body": "I cannot believe how fast you posted the picture The wonders of digital technology. All I had to do was download it to my PC the next day."}, {"response": 27, "author": "winter", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (01:11)", "body": "ohh! I'm so jealous! please let us know when your next tea will be, as i make frequent visits to the boston area. i'll be there in april, so if you're planning on having a spring tea, let me know!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (01:58)", "body": "What an adorable picture! You all look so cute! Now Candace...;)"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (14:30)", "body": "I am so glad to see you all, and hear you had such a good time, as we did. Our photos will take a little longer to post."}, {"response": 30, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (16:13)", "body": "We did have a wonderful time, it was so very wonderful to meet with each other. Pictures coming up soon for all to enjoy!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (16:16)", "body": "Johanne, where have you been? Missed you."}, {"response": 32, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (16:21)", "body": "Been to Boston dearest and catching with my little one Be back tonight in chat"}, {"response": 33, "author": "PaulaLovejoy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:25)", "body": "Jane's word-- magical -- was just the right word to describe it! To me it felt like we'd all known each other forever. Like on this board, there was so much to talk about and catch up on... April sounds good so we can meet Winter -- the Four Seasons and Copley Plaza also have tea, though I love the Ritz also. The scones with Devonshire cream and raspberry jam are to die for and the cucumber sandwiches aren't bad either! --Paula (ever thinking about food)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:27)", "body": "April sounds good so we can meet Winter Say no more. I have the mailing list."}, {"response": 35, "author": "winter", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (18:12)", "body": "HOORAY!!!! (i'd do a somersault if i wasn't so uncoordinated!) I'm looking foward to meeting you all! Hope this becomes a regular event, as I'll have lots to look foward to during future trips to Boston; especially the one coming up! I'm dying to meet you all, and please keep me updated at : jesperan@ucla.edu thanks!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:04)", "body": "Let me know when in April. It's bad timing for finals, but you never know...."}, {"response": 37, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "Me, too (or three!), Myretta. I get up to Boston occasionally to visit my best friend, and I would love to meet everyone. (email is k_elder@fre.fsu.umd.edu or kelder@miworld.net)"}, {"response": 38, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:39)", "body": "Austen's Boston Tea Party Party of 7 at the Ritz Tea Room from left to right Paula Jane Arnessa Moi, Johanne Myretta Laura and Celia some wonderful goodies we sampled : our choice of beverage accompanied with various canap\ufffds : for exemple smoked salmon and caper and fresh cucumber and red pepper, for dessert : chocolate dipped strawberries, cake and delicious patisseries, rasberry jam, scones and lucious Devonshire cream after our succulent t\ufffdte-\ufffd-t\ufffdte \ufffd 7, a stroll in the park and a stop in honor of our favorite hero and on a more convivial note with the sun setting and the night lights glittering on Newbury Street, we parted from our dear friends wishing it did'nt have to end"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:28)", "body": "Johanne, thanks for the close-ups. It's nice to be able to make out the faces belonging to people I've come to respect and admire.:-)"}, {"response": 40, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:40)", "body": ""}, {"response": 41, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:44)", "body": ""}, {"response": 42, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "Ladies, you are uniformly charming , and we all wish we could have been there, too!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "Yes, thanks for doing that nice little show, Johanne. It was fun too see."}, {"response": 44, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (07:22)", "body": "Kathleen and Kate, I've added you to my April tea list. Kate. Make sure I have your correct email address. Email me at mrobens@hbsp.harvard.edu. Thank you all for enjoying our day with us and the invitation stands open for the next."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (08:08)", "body": "What a merry party you were!! And, what bad luck for me. An Austen Tea Party in February and another in April, but I will be in Boston in March. I wish you another wonderful day anyway. Is there anyone here in the NYC area?? Linda"}, {"response": 46, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (09:28)", "body": "... but I will be in Boston in March Let us know when you will be in town, Linda. We may not be able to have another tea party quite so soon, but I'm sure we can arrange something."}, {"response": 47, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (10:20)", "body": "I never really responded about our date, but it was wonderful. I have never had such a great time. Like Jane said everyone are Goddessess. Everybody very personable and we chatted up a storm. Jane brought me an article and some gorgeous pictures of Mr Firth that I have since devoured. Everyone was in happy spirits and not one shy person in the whole lot. Imagine that. I cannot wait until the next one!!!!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "Oh! I am sooo jealous! I wonder if there are any folks in the Southeastern US who might want to convene?"}, {"response": 49, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (14:52)", "body": "Johanne, Thank you for posting our pictures so beautifully. You put it all in context and managed to give everyone an idea of what it was really like on Sunday. You did a fine job just as I knew you would."}, {"response": 50, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "Pleasure is all mine, Myretta"}, {"response": 51, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (17:25)", "body": "We have a Ritz Carlton in Atlanta, ladies!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (12:29)", "body": "I may have already mentioned this, my company is opening a branch in Boston. So we'll have an Austin to Boston connection."}, {"response": 53, "author": "catie", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (13:22)", "body": "I won't be in Boston in April but will be on Nantucket. (I'll fly through Boston). If folks would like to change the tea to Nantucket, let me know. The weekend of the 19th. I wish I lived in Boston. It's a great city and closer to the island. I live in Atlanta and if people would like to get together in Atlanta, e-mail me at C_Keavney@msn.com Catie"}, {"response": 54, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (10:13)", "body": "Myretta, Please add me to the list. Even though I am new here, I would love to meet all of you - April can't come soon enough!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (10:44)", "body": "Lynn, consider yourself added."}, {"response": 56, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:11)", "body": "Over at Pemberley we have been talking about a possible \"Darcy in DC\" get together. Anyone interested can email me. Anytime this summer would be great for me. Please say when it is a good time to for you."}, {"response": 57, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:15)", "body": "Count me in for DC. I live about 140 miles west (western Maryland panhandle). End of June or first few weeks in July; mid to late August; other weekends may be OK as well."}, {"response": 58, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:19)", "body": "August would be after your visit to England, would it not?"}, {"response": 59, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:47)", "body": "August would be after your visit to England, would it not? Yes. The Austen course goes from July 27 through August 2. I plan a adding a couple of days before or after to stay in London (museums, theatre, whatever). But, I could do a weekend even after school starts in September. I have friends in DC who don't mind my dropping by from time to time."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:48)", "body": "Carolyn, count me in! I live 2 miles of good (crowded) road from D.C. August, however, is no good for me. I'll be gone from approximately July 18 till September 6, all in England except for last two weeks cruising in the Med. Can we make it late June? Or what about watching the fireworks in D.C. on July 4?"}, {"response": 61, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "If the Beach Boys will be there I might come."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (20:17)", "body": "Sorry, Amy, the Beach Boys haven't been here since the Reagan days, when they booted them out in favor of (would you believe) Wayne Newton!!!! Ugh!! They said there was a need for \"family\" entertainment!! The crowds at the Washington Monument were considerably lighter that year!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (20:20)", "body": "There's always a good concert on the Capitol lawn - lovely atmosphere - get there early and bring picnics, then the National Symphony from 8 p.m. usually finishing with the 1812 overture and Stars and Stripes. Much like the Boston Pops concerts!"}, {"response": 64, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (21:00)", "body": "If I'm on this coast, I'll be there. Earlier would be better than later, but I'm unpredictable, so don't take me into account in the calculations."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (07:03)", "body": "Would June 21st or June 28th be OK? Perhaps we could have tea at the Willard?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (07:09)", "body": "Ooh. I love old hotels. So many ghosts. Is the Willard the one where Gen Grant registered and they tried to stick the scruffy old guy in the attic?"}, {"response": 67, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:09)", "body": "June 28 would be better for me, but the 21st might also be OK. The Willard would be ever so very nice!"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "Either June 21 or 28 are fine by me - and yes, the Willard is beautiful, especially since they've redone it. Do you want me to check whether they serve tea? I would think they do, but I'm not sure."}, {"response": 69, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (18:29)", "body": "I was about to say that the room in the photo looked a lot like the lobby of the Willard Hotel...;) They have a nifty display tucked into the back of the building, up the stairs and to the left of the Peacock Walk, with lots of renovation photos and other information of historical interest..."}, {"response": 70, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:20)", "body": "]Do you want me to check whether they serve tea? I would think they do, but I'm not sure. Inko, would you please check? I know they used to, but I am not sure they still do. It turns out that the weekend of the 21(Sat)/22(Sun) is best for me. Either day is fine."}, {"response": 71, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (16:17)", "body": "Yes, the Willard does serve afternoon tea on Saturdays and Sundays, so that's fine. Either day is fine with me - heavens knows what will be on the calendar by then, but I never make plans that far in advance (except travel plans)so for the moment it's blank! Whatever suits everybody better!"}, {"response": 72, "author": "winter", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:04)", "body": "WAIT! I'm confused... are we talking about the Austen in BOSTON, or somewher else? With all the talk over the past week or so about other meetings, I've lost track of which city is being discussed. As for the Boston tea party in April, has a date been set? I'd still like to join, if you're still doing it (haven't heard from anyone and i thought i was on the mailing list). anyway, let me know, so as i can reserve my plane ticket."}, {"response": 73, "author": "LaDemoiselle", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "Darcy in DC sounds lovely, Carolyn. Any day is fine."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (18:25)", "body": "We've moved the DC discussion to its own topic, Darcy in DC"}, {"response": 75, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (19:34)", "body": "Winter, We haven't talked about a date in April yet and you are, indeed on the mailing list. You'll be among the first to know."}, {"response": 76, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (12:40)", "body": "From AUSTEN-L: Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:30:37 -0400 From: Kathleen McCormack Subject: attention Boston area Janeites!!! The Massachusetts chapter of JASNA will be presenting its next program this Sunday, March 16, 2 p.m. at the Newton Free Library (Homer and Walnut Streets, Newton, MA). Marcia Folsom of Wheelock College will talk on \"Submitting to New Attachments: Re-reading Sense and Sensibility.\" Tea will be served after the talk. Please feel free to email me _ before end of day Thursday _ (I'm only connected to email at work and will be off Friday) if you need more info. (If it's directions you need however you might do better calling the library directly.) --Kathleen McCormack kathleen_mccormack@zd.com"}, {"response": 77, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (14:27)", "body": "I wonder, does Kathleen know Paula?"}, {"response": 78, "author": "PaulaLovejoy", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (18:22)", "body": "Kathleen and I work for the same company but didn't know each other till recently. It was a real \"small world\" experience -- I saw a post of Kathleen's on the Austen-L mailing list, and noticed that her email address was the same as mine! But I didn't know her at all because she works in a different department on a different floor of the building, so I found her name on the telephone list, called her and introduced myself. Somehow I feel that on the Austen-L especially, people are posting from all over the world, so I think of them as being quite far away, and it was amazing to find someone so close. We both work for ZDNet, a big Web site at http://www.zdnet.com (I do this page for a living). Come visit! You can get all of the Ziff-Davis computer magazines there for free, plus lots of free software and plenty of advice about computing and the Internet. Personally I think P&P is a more compelling topic than computers but a girl has to have tea money for the Ritz... --Paula"}, {"response": 79, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (19:26)", "body": "Paula, I have been to that site many times and never knew you had anything to do with it. In fact, when Myretta told me what you do, I felt a little ashamed for having such a homemade place."}, {"response": 80, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (22:14)", "body": "In fact, when Myretta told me what you do, I felt a little ashamed for having such a homemade place. But,Amy, your homemade place is home ."}, {"response": 81, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (02:54)", "body": "Paula: but a girl has to have tea money for the Ritz... hee hee hee. Most genteely put, Paula. I have often visited your site, being an actual MacUser subscriber. Nice to know that actual people who take tea in Boston are involved there. :-)"}, {"response": 82, "author": "PaulaLovejoy", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (21:22)", "body": "Thanks all. Glad you like our site (suggestions & comments are always welcome!) Unfortunately I've been so busy with our Web site redesign I haven't had much time to hang out here. But the Drool is a lot more fun than a computing site in my opinion. Amy, I have always looked up to you for your \"homemade place!\" What you've done here is amazing, and it's always right on target (example: I just jotted down the time of Northanger Abbey and today's mail brought 2 Colin Firth videos on loan from a fellow addict in Maryland). Who needs the slick stuff--here we've got a *real* community. The forums are well organized and easy to follow. The links are informative. The people are wonderful, smart, funny, and they understand my P&P addiction. What more could o e ask from a Web site? --Paula"}, {"response": 83, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (17:44)", "body": "Your Austen in Boston looks like it was fun, ladies! Here's a report on our mini-convention in Los Angeles, wherein myself, Joan from SF, and Anna Price from Australia convened on Saturday: I conveyed Anna on a perilous L.A. driving adventure from the Sheraton Universal to the LAX Mariott. She was able to experience the famous 405 freeway at maximum congestion. Much fun was had by all; Joan also has a wiz-bang digital camera and took some pix, so I trust she will be posting them soon. We did compare o r two meetings; my take: \"We may be smaller but we are louder!\""}, {"response": 84, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:43)", "body": "Actually, we twisted the arm of one of the parking valets to digitize us, and as soon as we have agreed upon which version shows us in the best possible (though somewhat windblown) light, it will be posted. Unfortunately we were too busy being loud to be more digital."}, {"response": 85, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "I wish to hear more about this boisterosity."}, {"response": 86, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:23)", "body": "Austen ladies...loud? I am all astonishment! ;-)"}, {"response": 87, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:48)", "body": "Yes, I want to know more too!"}, {"response": 88, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (00:46)", "body": "Well, Hilary, Amy2 and I know what you look like now."}, {"response": 89, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (13:41)", "body": "Exactly! Fairs fair!"}, {"response": 90, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (14:50)", "body": "I returned last night from a wonderful weekend convention in Boston. One of the highlights was getting a chance to meet Myretta. As you know, she is a lovely, genteel lady. We browsed in the bookstore and had a lot of good conversation over a delicious dinner. I now have another flesh and blood friend! Unfortunately, I forgot my camera at home, then could not catch up with my friend who was going to loan me her's for the evening. So, I cannot visually share our visit with you. I hope to meet others of you in the foreseeable future. Linda"}, {"response": 91, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "My dinner with Linda was wonderful. I am so delighted she let me know she was going to be in Boston. She is a charming lady and, as with all of my new friends, we discovered much in common. One of the wonderful things about this group is being able to meet people for the first time and feel as though you have known them for years. As Linda said, we had a wonderful dinner and talked like old friends. I hope she will be in Boston again soon so the rest of the Boston Austenites can meet her."}, {"response": 92, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (14:31)", "body": "Hi all!! I have been gone from the list for a while well a few days, my little one came down with CHICKEN POX. Well at least she has them, pretty bad too, and now she'll never have them again. Unfortunately, for the two of us we were both quarantined in the house for five days. Pure Torture. Well anyway, Linda I'm glad you enjoyed Boston, Myretta is a great person to meet."}, {"response": 93, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (14:33)", "body": "Poor thing. It is good you are both over that hump, Laura."}, {"response": 94, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (15:01)", "body": "Oh Amy all I could do was cry and cry she was in so much pain. There is nothing more terrible that seeing your child in agony and knowing you cannot do anything. Horrible. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 118, "subject": "Lady Catherine - Who told her about the engagement?", "response_count": 85, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Jan  1, 1997 (22:18)", "body": "In the book Lizzy speculates that the Lucas's thought that since Jane was getting married perhaps Lizzy would also. This became the rumor which found its way to Charlotte and thence to Mr. Collins and thence to Lady C."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Jan  1, 1997 (23:07)", "body": "alternative suggestions have included; Charlotte found out from her lover (Colonel Fitzwilliam) Miss Bingley told Lady Catherine servants gossip (no excuse for interference is below Lady Catherine) I'm sure there were others which I've forgotten"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Donna", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (00:12)", "body": "Hey, in P&P 1 they have Charlotte say to Mr. Collins: \"He {Mr. Darcy} is in love with Elizabeth\"said Charlotte. Mr. Collins replies to Charlotte \"L. Catherine will not stand for that\". This is as you see Mr.D walking back after the first proposal to Rosings. This could confirm that Mr. Collins was very upset at the thought of Lizzie marring to well and maybe he would be mad/jealous enough to tell L.Catherine so she would stop the marriage. He did say to Lizzie \"My dear cousin you may never have another pr posal of marriage\". He was highly insulted that Lizzie turned him down. He thought \"How could she ever refuse me\". How could she not. If we use all of the information from both adaptations and the book everything points to Mr. Collins. Anna,someone said Mr. Darcy himself let it be known."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (04:37)", "body": "I thought I remebered a sneaky suggestion, but I cannot believe it of Darcy."}, {"response": 5, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (08:48)", "body": "In the book, it seems pretty clear that the Lucas family wrote to Charlotte about Jane's engagement and also speculated that Lizzy & Darcy would become engaged. Mr. Collins' letter to Mr. Bennet mentions that this subject was \"by the same authority\" as his info re Jane & Bingley. Mr. Collins then writes that he has \"reason to imagine that . . . Lady Catherine . . . does not look on the match with a friendly eye.\" What I think happened, as Lizzy speculates in the book, is that the local gossiped about Darcy being around the Bennets nearly as much as Bingley. Once there is an engagement, etc. The Lucases wrote this news to Charlotte, Mr. Collins kindly informed his noble patroness, she reacted w/ less than subtle anger, then took off for Longbourne so quickly that she got there before Mr. Collins' letter! (I do agree that the Charlotte & Col. Fitzwilliam connection is a more interesting theory, however!)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "IF", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (10:44)", "body": "I'd say that the Lucas'a spread the rumor.I always thought that Sir William had somehow got it into his head that Lizzy and Darcy would be a great couple and that he should be the one to bring them together.Remember that he was the one who tried to get Lizzy and Darcy to dance at Lucas Lodge and he congratulated them on dancing at the Netherfield ball.So when Jane became engaged to Bingley Sir William thought that Lizzy and Darcy would not be to far behind.He told Charlotte and she told Mr. Collins and th ts how I think Lady C. heard of the engagment.Just a thought."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (12:40)", "body": "IF! It is good to hear from you, it has been an age! Welcome back! How was your Christmas in Ireland?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (12:44)", "body": "Well to get back on track, I think that the Collinses said something to Lady C. In the book, Charlotte and Maria get back whilst Mr Darcy is still there, Charlotte says to Lizzy \"He must be in love with you\" I'm quoting from memory. that was before the famous proposal and let down scene. 50 miles of good road scene. Even in the book I love that scene because Lizzy is totally clueless as to what Mr Darcy is getting to. \" You would not always want to be near Longbourne....?\" In the miniseries JE's expre sion at showing us her confusion is classic. Oh sorry, I think Charlotte mentioned something to Mr C and he said something to Lady C."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (23:46)", "body": "Thanks for the responses but help me with this. Do you really think Lady C. would travel to Longbourne on an idle report from Mr. Collins? I understand from the novel in Mr. Collins' letter, he alludes to the information being from the Lucases. The bottom line is that Mr. Collins would have to back up this claim but Darcy/Bingley sightings at Longbourne. I think Lady C. would demand more proof or expect this information to come from a close friend, like Col. Fitzwilliam (inadvertantly) or our friend M ss Bingley (for foul purposes only)."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (03:04)", "body": "Karen: \"Do you really think Lady C. would travel to Longbourne on an idle report from Mr. Collins?\" I think that when Lady C. heard this rumor, she immediately dismissed it, but upon reflection, recalled how often Darcy had visited the parsonage during Lizzy's sojourn in Kent, that he looked at and spoke with her a great deal. Then she happened to glance over at Anne, compared her \"beauty\" to that of Lizzy's, admitted to herself that Darcy, although he certainly should have been by now, did not appear to be enamored of Anne, got very distressed and immediately sent for the barouche! She could n t afford to take any chances if she were to see her daughter safely married to Darcy!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (11:01)", "body": "Okay here is the real story. Darcy went to Lady C and said \"listen mum, I am in love with Miss Elizabeth Bennet and want to marry her and nothing you say or do will ever make me change my mind. I do not not and will never love Anne! But you must do something for me and I'll give you L1,500. You must travel to Longbourne and tell Miss Elizabeth that you will never allow her to marry me. You will then get her to state her feelings about me, is this clear. Your windows need cleaning by the way.\""}, {"response": 12, "author": "jane", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (11:30)", "body": "Laura, I think you've got it! LOL. But if Mr. Darcy is as picky about housekeeping as you say, I change my mind about wanting him to drop in at my house someday. Jane"}, {"response": 13, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (12:35)", "body": "I had too. It just seemed so natural. But I think Darcy would love your house he just hates Lady C."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (18:20)", "body": "Of course, in P&P0, Huxley has Darcy and Lady C. in cahoots in just such a plot. I always thought the main suspect/yenta was Mr. Collins. I think he thinks he's doing Lady C. a tremendous favor by blabbing, and thus securing her favor."}, {"response": 15, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (23:36)", "body": "I dare say that Mr. Collins did not hear a WORD about it from Charlotte, she hates him, so why would she ever tell him her fancies, which she did not tell her dear friend yet? I think it's more likely that the Lucases just gossiped too loud, maybe Lady Cathrine herself heard the."}, {"response": 16, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Jan  4, 1997 (05:05)", "body": "Oh, Ayelet, I do not think that Charlotte hates him. She appreciates his character, connections, and situation in life, and that he is not malicious. But she also recognizes that of some delights (as Lizzie says) a little goes a long way."}, {"response": 17, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (13:28)", "body": "In P&P1, they have Charlotte go out of her way to tell Mr. C. that Darcy \"is in love with Elizabeth\": when she sees him walking back after his aborted first proposal, I believe. . ."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "Don't you prefer the understated understanding between Lizzy and her friend in P&P2? About Darcy, and Mr Collins, too. They don't have girl talk and don't seem to have to."}, {"response": 19, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (17:20)", "body": "\"They don't have girl talk and don't seem to have to. \" Great point. I hadn't noticed, but you are right. JA never lets her ladies talk about such things. But in P&P2, they did not have to! Much better!!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (17:30)", "body": "Oh, I don't know... the way this group likes to dish, I'm surprised that we can't dream up a scene where Charlotte and Lizzy have a heart to heart about their beaus.;)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (23:09)", "body": "Mari: the way this group likes to dish, I'm surprised that we can't dream up a scene where Charlotte and Lizzy have a heart to heart about their beaus.;) Ewwwww! I don't think that I want to hear anything having to do with Mr. Collins' love life! Ducktape, please! ;-)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (15:20)", "body": "\"And normally I use this bed chamber, my dear Lizzy. Mr. C prefers the larger room for its size and its view of the lane. This room is very quiet and comfortable. So you see, we sometimes pass an entire night without being in one another's company at all. I am very well satisfied.\""}, {"response": 23, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (15:21)", "body": ""}, {"response": 24, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (15:22)", "body": "Sorry, Cheryl - couldn't resist such a challenge."}, {"response": 25, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (15:52)", "body": "Interestingly enough, the only character whom Lizzy \"dishes\" with (besides Jane) is Wickham! Have you ever noticed how their discourse about Lady C., Mr. Collins, etc. is much more forthright than between Lizzy & Darcy? It really struck me in Episode II."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (16:55)", "body": "To do away with the positive view on their mutual understanding at that early stage of their acquaintance first: Lizzy and Wickham were both of an open,sociable and easy disposition. But it did them no good (their chats really brought forward the less agreeable sides of her personality)as Lizzy wanted to hear bad things about Darcy and all his connections( maybe due to hurt pride and some prejudice ;~) ) And Wickham was always ready to feed her something unfavourable about Darcy, in order to make her think better of himself. I do not doubt, that he found her attractive and fun to be with. And regarding Mr Collins who could resist a joke or two at his expense? About his conversation and boasting.\"There's lot's to be had of it\" and \" her Ladyship is fond of a good blaze then?\""}, {"response": 27, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (13:04)", "body": "I guess I could then ask: Did Darcy's reticence do _him_ any good? Did not immediately revealing Wickham's character early on -- at the Netherfield Ball when Lizzy first brings it up -- only lead to Lizzy's increased prejudice toward him? I'm only playing Devil's advocate because Ann2 can make flashing text & I can't!!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (17:38)", "body": "LOL Amy2 re. the flashing text!! I think Darcy couldn't have said more than he did at the ball. He would have been overheard by other dancers, it involved his own sister, and they were always being separated by the dance which would make it difficult to keep any train of thought going! I doubt it increased Lizzie's prejudice against him except that it had five more months to simmer!!;-)"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (19:34)", "body": "Can't blink ? visit the tutorial: http://www.spring.com/~anneh/tagsaaaa.html or use the HTML tutorial link from the main page. I really did try to make it easy to figure out. (Disclaimer: Blink doesn't work with MS Explorer)"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (20:11)", "body": "Blink doesn't work with MS Explorer Why not?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (20:29)", "body": "]]Blink doesn't work with MS Explorer ]Why not? because MS Explorer doesn't support blinking text (Microsoft's choice)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (20:35)", "body": "]because MS Explorer doesn't support blinking text (Microsoft's choice) Bill Gates is currently working on Blink98, a real contender in the HTML command field."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "]Blink98, a real contender in the HTML command field."}, {"response": 34, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (22:48)", "body": "Ann2 can make flashing text & I can't!! Actually, you can - you just won't be able to see it blink yourself. But if you put the tag in, those whose browsers will blink will see it."}, {"response": 35, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (12:40)", "body": "I don't know guys -- I think I'm Blinking Text Challenged. . ."}, {"response": 36, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (13:12)", "body": "Well I will try something but for a one reason or another I cannot seem to go into the practice mode ."}, {"response": 37, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (13:13)", "body": "I did it!! I did it ."}, {"response": 38, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (11:08)", "body": "You guys are lowering my self-esteem. I'm going to need federal matching money to get over this!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (17:07)", "body": "Getting back to the topic...reading the book after I saw the movie...I had thought maybe it was Georgiana...The night that Lizzie and the Gardiners left Derbyshire...remember when Darcy left the room after Ms. Bingley queried about why he was so quiet? What if...Georgiana had gone to her brother and asked about his feelings for Lizzie (remember in the Inn when Lizzie and Georgiana first met and Lizzie said \"I've heard so much about you\" and Georgiana replied, \"And I about you\". Certainly Darcy had been t lking about Lizzie to her...what if she had gone to her brother in concern and asked why Lizzie had left, what was bothering him, was he in love with her?\" Then, one trip to (Aunt) Lady Catherines when she mentioned him marrying her daughter...and Georgiana might have just remarked,\"but aunt...I fear my brother is in love with someone else!\" Who could have kept the someone else from Lady Catherines harsh inquiry - certainly not sweet, shy Georgiana...and wha-lah!....Lady Catherine is in her carriage fas er than you can say \"Oh, I have such tremblings and flutterings all over me!\" Just thought I'd throw in another possibility! Linda In Georgia"}, {"response": 40, "author": "sld", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (17:40)", "body": "It was Mr. Collins who told her - NO DOUBT. Sir Lucas was the source. I think any correspondence that came from Lucas Lodge to Hundsford was probably read by both Charlotte and Mr. Collins. (They have nothing else to say to each other!) Though I don't think Charlotte's loyalties necessarily are with Elizabeth. She didn't think twice about encouraging her cast-off. Also, Sir Lucas was highly likely to have made the probable engagement of Lizzy and Darcy into an actuallity, just as he did before with Jane and Bingley."}, {"response": 41, "author": "sld", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (17:42)", "body": "It was Mr. Collins who told her - NO DOUBT. Sir Lucas was the source. I think any correspondence that came from Lucas Lodge to Hundsford was probably read by both Charlotte and Mr. Collins. (They have nothing else to say to each other!) Though I don't think Charlotte's loyalties necessarily are with Elizabeth. She didn't think twice about encouraging her cast-off. Also, Sir Lucas was highly likely to have made the probable engagement of Lizzy and Darcy into an actuallity, just as he did before with Jane and Bingley."}, {"response": 42, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (10:11)", "body": "But Sharon....would Mr. Collins have risked getting the ole\"Dowager\" upset with him in the room? He seemed like he always walked on eggshells when he was around her...although, he would do anything to get in her good graces...but she would have bitten his head off! Linda in Ga."}, {"response": 43, "author": "sld", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (10:57)", "body": "Linda in GA: Mr. Collins would do to ingratiate himself with her by taking her side and passsing along the warning to her. Tattle- tail, tattle-tail. Of course, since he probably has a little residual spite over Lizzy rejecting him, he think that Lizzy isn't good enough for a man in Darcy's position, either. Remember, he told her then that she wouldn't get an offer from anyone else. Then later when she was leaving the parsonage to return home, he kind of threw it in her face that she missed out on the privalege that Charlotte now has. \"...and altogether I trust it does not appear that your friend has drawn an unfortunate- But on this point it will be as well to be sil nt\". What a Jerk. Also note the language in the letter he wrote to Mr. Bennet."}, {"response": 44, "author": "sld", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (19:43)", "body": "Oh Linda, an additional thought - Mr. Collins corresponds regularly with Mr. Bennet, so it is likely that he also personally writes to Sir Lucas, his own father-in-law. So in the course of THAT connection, Sir Lucas may have written directly to Mr. Collins with his gossip."}, {"response": 45, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (08:59)", "body": "The ole' snoop.... and...Sir Lucas would have formed this bit of gossip from the fact that Darcy had been visiting Longbourne with Mr.Bingley? Isn't it funny that Sir Lucas would have seen something that Lizzies own parents could not see! Do you think that Sir Lucas had bad intentions or just told the latest news without a thought about what rucus he would be creating?"}, {"response": 46, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (10:07)", "body": "If Mr. Lucas is the culpert then it was done with good intentions,because he liked Mr.Darcy.From the very begining he could see Darcy's interest in Elizabeth. The same with Charlotte,see could see it too. I think he liked being the matchmaker."}, {"response": 47, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (12:41)", "body": "That could be. He did seem to like Lizzie too (although startled by her frankness). I think that Charlotte really was a good friend to Lizzie and valued her friendship as well. If they were the ones that let the cat out of the bag..I think it was not for meanness..."}, {"response": 48, "author": "sld", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (19:33)", "body": "Haven't you guys ever spent any time in a small town? All there is to do is know everybody's business, and what you don't know, you conjecture. That is all that was going on. But in Sir Lucas's mind, he probably believed that it was gonna happen. Not because he has any great insight or intuition, but he is just stretching, as some people without a lot of sense do. Even Caroline Bingly made a comment to Darcy when he admired fine eyes in the face of a pretty woman. \"How long has she been such a favorite? -and when am I to wish you joy?\" she says. Darcy responds, \"That is exactly the question which I expected you to ask. A lady's imagination is very rapid; it jumps from admiration to love, from love to matrimony, in a moment. I know you would be wishing me joy.\" Well, the news is, that it is not just a lady's imagination that can work that way."}, {"response": 49, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (11:11)", "body": "I'm with Linda. I don't think Charlotte would have said anything to Lady C. which would have hurt her friend Elizabeth. I think Charlotte owes favors to Rosings, but is not exactly enamored of its chief inhabitant. My guess as to the culprit: Mr. Collins by way of the Lucases in Hertfordshire."}, {"response": 50, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (12:08)", "body": "Ok you all win...I still want to think about the possibility of Georgiana having a relationship with her brother that may have included confidences...and I think that Georgiana really liked Lizzie...and if she had visited (aunt) Catherine....she just might have stood up for them both and would want Lady Catherine to begin looking elsewhere for a husband for her daughter. Could have...might have...probably didn't...but fun to imagine!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (14:27)", "body": "Linda: I agree that if Georgie had visited Lady C., she would NOT have participated in the dissing of Elizabeth. She surely wanted nothing to do with Caroline's trashing of her at Pemberley. Georgiana's close enough with her brother that she totally trusts his judgment. I still have not evolved a strong opinion on just what extent Darcy would take his little sister into his confidence. We know he had discussed Elizabeth with her - that is clear. But was it just to say, \"I met this very charming woman when I was at Netherfield\"; \"I think an acquaintance with such a young woman should be most beneficial\"; \" She plays and sings very well indeed, is tolerably well read, has many interests - a very fine example of womanhood..\"? True, Goergiana had not just arrived on this planet, so she could probably see for herself that Darcy was reacting differently to Elizabeth. Where I can't quite get to, is Darcy sharing his most tender and private feelings with a 16 year old girl, 10 years his junior. He says that Georgiana looks up to him almost as a father. He was 23 and she 11 when they lost their parent, so he probably feels like a father-figure where she is concerned. And also when he does marry Elizabeth, Georgiana is \"alarmed\" at the way Elizabeth talks to him. This, to me, implies there is still this authority boundary that she has never crossed with her bother. I just can't imagine her as his contemporary. Another interesting point regarding Georgiana's thoughts on her brother marrying sick Cousin Anne. If it was generally known that Lady C. intended Darcy for her daughter, of course Gorgiana knew of it. BUT, was is generally known what DARCY'S intentions were? Do you think he ever had any intention of marrying her?"}, {"response": 52, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (14:43)", "body": "On second thought, lets take the discussion re: Darcy's intentions to a new topic - 147, so we don't get too far off track here."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Karen", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (21:40)", "body": "Linda, Linda. I am sorry I was not here to support you in your Georgiana theory. I know talk abounds about Collins being the culprit but I think he is much to spineless to do the deed (even if he was tattling). From reading the novel, I was never convinced that Collins did it. It makes much more sense to me that either a close friend )or Georgiana) slipped or someone spread it maliciously. Sir Lucas and Mr. Collins suck up to Lady C. so much they would never breach the topic whereas the situation des ribe by Linda seems very plausible. She probably didn't know Darcy and Anne was \"promised\" to one another and why would she, since Darcy, himself, did not consider to obligation one to be held. Georgiana would not have to be explicit either. From what we know about Darcy, Elizabeth is the first woman he has been serious about and women are usually very good at detecting love in men they know. Hang in there Linda!"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Mari", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (13:45)", "body": "Ladies, I must insist that it is Mr. Collins; remember, JA rarely gives her information directly; you must connect the dots yourself. I think that the letter he sends to Mr. Bennet says it all; ''He begins with congratulations on the approaching nuptials of my eldest daughter, of which, it seems, he has been told by some of the good-natured, gossiping Lucases.'' --He hears gossip from the Lucases, then writes the letter; he acts upon the information as if it were fact. ''I shall not sport with your impatience, by reading what he says on that point. What relates to yourself, is as follows.'' `Having thus offered you the sincere congratulations of Mrs. Collins and myself on this happy event, let me now add a short hint on the subject of another; of which we have been advertised by the same authority.' --He tells us here that he hears FROM the Lucases, the following news; 'Your daughter Elizabeth, it is presumed, will not long bear the name of Bennet, after her elder sister has resigned it, and the chosen partner of her fate may be reasonably looked up to as one of the most illustrious personages in this land.' ``Can you possibly guess, Lizzy, who is meant by this?'' `This young gentleman is blessed, in a peculiar way, with every thing the heart of mortal can most desire, -- splendid property, noble kindred, and extensive patronage. Yet in spite of all these temptations, let me warn my cousin Elizabeth, and yourself, of what evils you may incur by a precipitate closure with this gentleman's proposals, which, of course, you will be inclined to take immediate advantage of.' ``Have you any idea, Lizzy, who this gentleman is? But now it comes out.'' `My motive for cautioning you is as follows. We have reason to imagine that his aunt, Lady Catherine de Bourgh, does not look on the match with a friendly eye.' --Reason to image?? The man has never caught a hint in his life; she must have exploded when he took the opportunity to be the first to tell her the news. We know he is the type to do this, and not have a clue to the propriety of his behavior, from his actions at the Netherfield ball; ''I am in the happy position of being able to tell you that your aunt was in perfect health... 8 days ago.'' I also agree that Darcy's relationship with his sister, being by his own admission more like that of a father, would never have suddenly become that of a confidant on his love life!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "Mari", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (13:46)", "body": ""}, {"response": 56, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (14:58)", "body": "Good evidence, Mari."}, {"response": 57, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (15:32)", "body": "Mari -- there is a further quote from Mr Collins' letter which completes your point: \"After mentioning the likelihood of this marriage to her ladyship last night, she immediately, with her usual condescension, expressed what she felt on the occasion\" Expressed what she felt, indeed!! It's a wonder the Collinses were able to hear afterwards!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (16:33)", "body": "Okay, okay...I pulled out my copy of the dialogue from the movie...no mention of the Lucases in the letter Mr. B refers to but...when I pulled out my copy of Austens P&P...there it was and must relent...it's her story (Austen, I mean). And yes, I know that Darcy wouldn't have poured out everything to Georgiana but when Lizzie said \"I have heard so much about you\" Georgiana responded \"And I about you\". That was interesting to me..also...who else could Darcy confide in? After the evening at Pemberley Dar y knew that Lizzie had won over Georgiana and they had that one major common bond....Now, I know he's a man...of few words...I just thought that if he were going to talk ..at all..to someone...it had to be Georgiana or Bingley....and if he wanted a womans viewpoint...that would narrow the choices. But like I said...with that one phrase re: Lucases...and considering Mr. Collins would do anything to be of service to Lady Catherine...I must agree that is the most likely source of how Lady Catherine came upo her knowledge."}, {"response": 59, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (17:03)", "body": "God, that Collins! What an idiot!"}, {"response": 60, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (21:44)", "body": "Sharon, shall we say Clueless?"}, {"response": 61, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (23:30)", "body": "Yes, yes -- Mr Collins is clueless and Lady C is a b**** ! She was so incensed about this \"rumored engagement\" that she must have set off immediately. (She even got to Longbourne before Mr Collins' letter -- which he probably wrote right after he got back to his study.) What a pair of co-dependents! :)"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (00:14)", "body": "I think these explanations have been great. But I loath the thought that Mr. Collins through being obsequious or malicious was the culprit. Then again there are those who think that Sir Lucas' inadvertent inference at Netherfield, which gave Jane and Bingley a year of separation, was, though harmless from his prospective, extremely foolish. And JA would like to have such foolishness from such similiar men."}, {"response": 63, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Feb  5, 1997 (20:53)", "body": "Mr. Collins's letter to Mr. Bennet on the elopement of Lydia is a most amazing production -- it's difficult to count the number of ways in which Mr. Collins manages to be offensive, apparently without being aware of it, in one medium-sized paragraph. (The novelist Trollope considered Mr. Collins's letters to be a comic masterpiece which \"would move laughter in a low-church archbishop\".) First off, it is not clear that any letter at all from Mr. Collins is called for upon this occasion (cf. Elizabeth: \"Assistance is impossible; condolence, insufferable -- let them triumph over us at a distance\" ); however, a proper letter would begin something along the lines of \"Unfortunately, I could not help hearing about Lydia ...\", would probably be discreetly silent as to the exact source from which the letter-writer heard the news, and would scrupulously avoid any implication that the letter-writer himself has spread the scandal any further. Instead, Mr. Collins tells on the Lucases for spreading the news of the scandal to Hunsford . Then he tells on himself and Charlotte for scandalmongering to each other . And he tells on himself for scandalmongering to the De Bourghs . He then offers a little self-contradictory \"consolation\" : He offers to \"alleviate\" Mr. Bennet's distress, whose cause, on the other hand, \"no time can remove\". He \"comforts\" Mr. Bennet by pointing out that \"The death of your daughter would have been a blessing in comparison of this\". He manages to blame both Lydia as intrinsically bad and the Bennet parents for being too indulgent (and in the process tells on Charlotte for blabbing the intimate details of the Bennet family ). (Thus in a later letter he oxymoronically tells Mr. Bennet that \"You ought certainly to forgive them as a Christian, but never to admit them in your sight, or allow their names to be mentioned in your hearing\" .) He oh-so-delicately informs Mr. Bennet that Lady Catherine thinks that this will ruin the chances of his other daughters marrying, and rejoices that he didn't marry Elizabeth after all."}, {"response": 64, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (11:07)", "body": "But Henry...does this writer tell of who he thinks let the cat out of the bag when it comes to Lady Catherine finding out about the relationship (or pending one) of Lizzy and Darcy? Because of the earlier letter full of gossip re: Lydia's escapades...does that mean we should assume that Charlottes family wrote her with gossip from observations of Darcy visiting with Bingley after and during the engagement? Also....does it make it clear that Mr. Collins letter to Mr. Bennet arrives the same day as Lady C therines visit...as it alludes to in the movie? I still think it is a matter of speculation and some amusing guessing!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (14:42)", "body": "Linda -- According to the novel, Mr Bennet discusses Mr Collins' letter w/ Lizzy the next morning (after Lady C's visit). The letter first congratulates the Bennets on Jane's engagement, then goes on to discuss the presumed engagement of Lizzy & Darcy \"of which we [Charlotte & Mr Collins] have been advertised by the same authority\" that is, by Charlotte's family from whom they learned about Jane & Bingley. Mr Collins' letter to Mr Bennet about Lydia's elopement is an earlier letter, sent while Mr Bennet is in London trying to find Lydia & Wickham. The letter about the engagements of the eldest Bennet daughters has the reference to Christian forgiveness. If Lady C had heard anything prior to Mr Collins discussing it with her, I doubt not that she would have paid a visit to Elizabeth even sooner! Her Ladyship was never one to delay in the performance of her duty, after all. ;-)"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (17:42)", "body": "In P&P2 Lady Catherine and the letter from Mr. C. arrive on two different days. When Lady Catherine visits Lizzy is in her linen-colored dress that she wore for both proposals, but when her father talks about Mr. C's letter she is wearing the floral with the thin yellow waist band. (It has been a while since I made the costume inventory, so my memory might fail a bit here, but I know they were two different dresses.) Lizzy's Costume List"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (12:32)", "body": "Lady C most likely observed Darcy's attention to Lizzy at Rosings and and his lack of attenion to her own jewel. She then needled the Collins and put two and two together. At this point I don't think Elizabeth knew her own feelings. Or JA simply needed a device to pull the book to its happy ending."}, {"response": 68, "author": "sld", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (18:41)", "body": "[Lady C most likely observed Darcy's attention to Lizzy at Rosings ..] Yea, I think she is too busy-body NOT to have noticed Darcy's attention to a 'pretty sort of gel'. Especially since BOTH of her nephews were flocking to Elizabeth."}, {"response": 69, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (02:20)", "body": "HC thank you for the critical analyis of Mr. Collins offensive and ridiculous letter."}, {"response": 70, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (08:25)", "body": "Had to go back and read Henry's 2bits, may I call you Henry? The small town analogy is a good one. remember these folks had nothing to do but gossip. Although, I dont think they would bring up the subject. Remember, he didn't want to offend the old bag by being late. I dont think he would want to be the bearer of bad news. Happy Valentines Day everyone."}, {"response": 71, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Anne I agree with your line of thinking. If Lady C. brought up the matter, Collins would have responded but for him to drop that bomb... He knows that Lady C. has plans for Darcy and Ann to marry so why get \"shot\" by telling that rumor."}, {"response": 72, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (16:19)", "body": "Karen, did he really know of Lady C.'s plans for Anne and Darcy? It was Wickham who told Lizzie; I'm not sure whether Collins would have known it. And he'd probably delighted to tell Lady C. if he thought he could injure his \"fair cousin Elizabeth\" - the one who had rejected his offer!!! Probably, according to him, she didn't deserve to \"ever receive another offer of marriage\"!!!!;-)"}, {"response": 73, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (17:28)", "body": "Inko -- I think Collins did know of her Ladyship's grand design for cousinly matrimony. After Darcy and Fitzwilliam left Rosings, the Collins party visited. When Lady C mentions how Darcy seemed to feel reluctant to leave, \"Mr Collins had a compliment, and an allusion to throw in here, which were kindly smiled on by the mother and daughter.\" I take this to mean that he alluded to Darcy's increased attachment for Anne as well as Rosings. As for why Collins would venture to tell Lady C something which would drive her nuts, I think he felt it was his duty. And he tells Mr Bennet in his letter \"After mentioning the likelihood of this marriage to her ladyship last night,\" etc. So maybe he wanted to congratulate Lady C if she already knew, or appear to be well informed (and useful), or who knows what Jane Austen meant. But it appears that Lady C gets the info from the odious Mr Collins."}, {"response": 74, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (20:39)", "body": "I think the bit in Chapter 37 -- \"They were excessively sorry to go!\" etc. etc. -- is meant to show that Lady Catherine does NOT have then any particular idea about Darcy and Elizabeth..."}, {"response": 75, "author": "sld", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (20:56)", "body": "[I think the bit in Chapter 37 -- \"They were excessively sorry to go!\" etc. etc. -- is meant to show that Lady Catherine does NOT have then any particular idea about Darcy and Elizabeth...] No, but she would have noticed that he paid attention to her. It is LATER when Mr. Collins tells her of a possible engagement between Darcy and Elizabeth that she would have recalled it and have some concern about some truth to the rumor."}, {"response": 76, "author": "candace", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (21:03)", "body": "I keep thinking that who told Lady C. about the engagement maybe isn't important. Kind of like, what did Billy Joe McCallister drop off the Tallahachee Bridge? Something that we can speculate on forever, but will never know for sure. ;-)"}, {"response": 77, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (01:24)", "body": "] what did Billy Joe McCallister drop off the Tallahachee Bridge? this is way OT, but has anyone ever seen the words written down? I'd always heard it as Billy Joe jumped off the Tallahachee Bridge..."}, {"response": 78, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (07:36)", "body": "OT: Billy Joe did jump of the Tallahachee Bridge, but the Billy Joe & a girl (presumably the singer ?) were seen at the bridge the prior week (?) throwing something off the bridge. Now, back on topic: after Lady C heard the rumor about Darcy & Elizabeth, she immediately set off to browbeat Elizabeth and persuade Darcy against it. Do you think she also discussed it with her brother's family? What would Col Fitzwilliam's response have been, do you suppose?"}, {"response": 79, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (08:55)", "body": "Im sure the lady would write the Earl, after all it was her duty (she thinks) to make sure Darcy married well. Col Fitz seemed like a good natured fellow and would be on Darcys side. If the couple had not acted so quickly, there might have been other visits, once the banns are published, or licence bought thats it (I think) Down South, you throw rocks off bridges, before you throw yourself"}, {"response": 80, "author": "sld", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (16:26)", "body": "[ Do you think she also discussed it with her brother's family?] Not before she made the trip to Longbourn and London. I don't think she made time to think about anything but squashing it once she got wind of the rumor. But afterward, she probably wrote the Earl."}, {"response": 81, "author": "Karen", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (19:48)", "body": "Sharon, I agree with you. Lady C. is an action oriented person (someone who acts first, thinks later). She'd do her damage and then tell other family members (to never speak to Lizzy)."}, {"response": 82, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (00:26)", "body": "Karen: She'd do her damage and then tell other family members (to never speak to Lizzy). Poor Lady C. Col Fitzwilliam and Miss Darcy will be right there to conteract her opinions on every front."}, {"response": 83, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (08:57)", "body": "Lady Catherine may have instructed Mr Collins to warn his cousin(Mr Bennet) that his daughter must be rebuked and told what was 'her place'. And then remembering how Lizzy had been so outspoken on the matter of younger daughters and their share of the fun.And getting even more alarmed when she recalled how Lizzy had had more than her share of the conversation by 'exercising her arts' on Darcy and Fitzwilliam. She maybe understood that mr Bennet could not control this obstinate girl and realized that the l cturing had to be performed by a true proficient. And off she went...thank God !"}, {"response": 84, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (09:15)", "body": "LOL! Capital, Ann. And really, all things considered, I begin to think it perfectly reasonable."}, {"response": 85, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (11:15)", "body": "Ann, that's a very interesting angle. I never thought that Lad C's ulterior motive would be to have Mr. Bennet dissaude Lizzy, care of Mr. Collins. But considering how she reins in Anne, she might very well have assumed that a parent could completely control his child. EXCEPT in this case!! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 12, "subject": "Denny", "response_count": 4, "posts": [{"response": 12, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (18:28)", "body": "I think Denny was just there to keep Lydia occupied and to show how interested she was in all the officers. He also served as a counterpoint to Wickham - he probably realized that Lydia was very young and silly - was pleasant enough to dance with her and amuse her at parties, but would never think of anything more romantic with her - and would certainly never elope with her. He probably never knew that Wickham was going to leave the regiment or that Lydia was going to accompany him - after all, Wickham ad debts of honor and Denny probably didn't think he'd run out on those, and I'm sure neither Wickham nor Lydia would have told him of their plans."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (18:39)", "body": "I've figured out Denny's real purpose. Was it not he who brought the dastardly Wickham to Meryton, thus setting in motion all manner of events? So you could say that without Denny, it would have been a very short book indeed! Also, Denny and Wickham were friends previously to the ____shire's entry into Meryton. Any speculation on how or where they met? Is Denny a debaucher too? Hmmmm!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (20:30)", "body": "Cheryl -- how are you? Sounds like you have been busy this week, what w/ collecting volunteer info and keeping up w/ the chat room. As to Denny's moral character, maybe it depends on whether he was a drill instructor. (No, wait, that's in 1996 -- and Lydia isn't an enlistee!) I don't think we're supposed to know much about any of the officers except Wickham. And Denny brought Wickham to the regiment after renewing a slight acquaintance w/ him in town. So, maybe they originally met while drinking and playing cards in the same pub. (Or do you think they shared the same women while Wickham was at Cambridge?)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (02:41)", "body": "He probably never knew that Wickham was going to leave the regiment or that Lydia was going to accompany him - Was it not Denny, though, who gave information to Col. Forester that Wickham never intended to marry Lydia? Is Denny a debaucher too? He certainly seems a lot more harmless than Wickham, but not much is actually told to us about his character. He is basically little more than a hunk of meat in a uniform for the amusement of Lydia and Kitty. It is interesting that Lydia, the egregious flirt, spends virtually all of her time in the company of Denny, while Kitty is seldom seen twice in the company of the same partner. Joan, too austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 121, "subject": "Persuasion", "response_count": 119, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (23:23)", "body": "Thanks for the info Lisa. I've been trying to find when Persuasion would be airing for months."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (23:35)", "body": "Lisa, what's the deal with your brother?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (01:10)", "body": "Where do I begin? He has always been an instigator and a person who thrives on controversy and going against the grain. We live in Montreal but he's a Bruin and Met fan much to my chagrin. What can I say? He loves to torment me! His opinions on P&P are quite different from mine even though his are based solely from the television series. He hasn't read the book and is unlikely to do so but our discussions are lively and interesting. Please do not cast me out because of my tainted association with him! After all, a little spice adds flavour to the sauce."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (03:26)", "body": "Lisa: \"Please do not cast me out because of my tainted association with him!\" Have no fear, Lisa, you shall not be cut off! We all have embarrasing relations, why, even our beloved heroine had one or, even four herself! But fortunately, our irritating kin do not have access to The Spring, yours, unfortunately, does. ;-)"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (05:46)", "body": "I think he deserves a chance, Lisa. You will help him \"get\" our particular polite flavor of contentiousness, though, right? Help us out."}, {"response": 6, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (10:01)", "body": "I'll try my best but he has a strong mind of his own and he rarely ever listens to me!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (18:29)", "body": "How old is Mr. Mike? I gather he is a. . .young man?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "cat", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "He is 21...I think"}, {"response": 9, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (19:59)", "body": "I'm sorry I'm a bit lost on this one but did we set any dates for our Pursuasion viewing? I'm still interested in doing it. Anyone else? Mich"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (20:37)", "body": "I don't think we set dates yet. Maybe a week or so after P&P1 dies? Cheryl, do you wish to organise us?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (21:36)", "body": "I believe that Cheryl is planning on doing a massive organization of coordinated viewings and discussions... stay tuned for the forthcoming schedule... :-)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Jan  4, 1997 (03:47)", "body": "I put together a virtual viewing schedule for Jan and Feb and gave it to Amy to post where she thought best. For those who cannot wait, we will do Nostromo, of course, this next week, then Persuasion on Jan. 19. Full schedule to follow soon...(Amy?)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan  4, 1997 (04:34)", "body": "Cheryl, I did not see that."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Jan  4, 1997 (15:59)", "body": "oh, dear...I sent it two days ago...I shall send another one off to you directly!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Jan  4, 1997 (16:08)", "body": "Amy, I just sent off another schedule...let me know if you didn't get it."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Kim", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (09:50)", "body": "Is this a new version of Persuasion or the old BBC one?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (09:55)", "body": "Hi, Kim The Amanda Root version is going to be reviewed first,then the BBC version. Look at the Calendar Link. You have to register, no big deal. Nice to see that your back Kim."}, {"response": 18, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (11:03)", "body": "I don't have a way of seeing the old BBC version of Persuasion. Only if I buy it, and well guys I'm trying to save for a trip to Florida with the little one. I am in definite need of 80 degree weather and Mickey Mouse. I can rent the Amanda Root version no problemo."}, {"response": 19, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (11:51)", "body": "Laura, I have the old version. Call me."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (14:25)", "body": "LauraM: \"I don't have a way of seeing the old BBC version of Persuasion. Only if I buy it...\" Folks, the BBC viewings are different from the general group Virtual Views. Some of our number discovered that we had the old 70's and 80's BBC adaptations and wanted to discuss them so I'm setting up some informal view/discussion dates to run between the main VirtViews. These will be listed on the calendar with the heading \"Old BBC...\" If you have these videos also, please feel free to join us (there is a topic here called \"BBC Videos\" or something) but please don't feel obligated to do so or to go buy these videos so as to participate. Some of the bigger chains will have them to rent, but I wouldn't advise laying out a lot of money for these videos that are not really of good quality. I believe the general concensus is that Emma is best of the lot and that some of them are pretty bad! This is mainly just an opportunity for ma y of us to bitch and moan and compare them to the newer, and many feel, more enjoyable adaptations. And also just because we have to wallow in our JA addiction using whatever means at our disposal! ;-) Did I scare anyone off? ;-)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (14:45)", "body": "Did I scare anyone off? ;-) Not a soul. ;-)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (15:39)", "body": "Cheryl: \"Did I scare anyone off? ;-)\" Myretta: \"Not a soul. ;-)\" Well, I knew I would not scare you , Myretta! You who have stood toe-to-toe with \"the Weasel Woman!\" ;-)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Belinda", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (20:55)", "body": "I agree with Cheryl on buying some of the old BBC adaptions: I think the old BBC Persuasion is probably the worst of the JA adaptions ... so not buy it! Terrible casting. Similarly Northanger Abbey is slightly more bearable but the actors are somewhat .... irritating."}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (12:42)", "body": "I saw the Beeb Northanger Abbey & wasn't too impressed. I thought their S&S wasn't bad (the actress who plays Charlotte Lucas in P&P1 is Elinore)."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (19:02)", "body": "VirtView Discussion of Persuasion begins Sunday, January 19 Use this topic to discuss Amanda Root Persuasion."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (07:05)", "body": "I can't stand Mary Musgrove. Too unkind"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (09:11)", "body": "Amy, when I click your hypertext, a sweet but rather empty little square with Netscape N and diminish, make larger or close options. Was this your intension? Teasing woman!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (10:24)", "body": "It was saved in M-S *.wav format. I've changed it now. Maybe it will work. Sorry for the play. I will take my new sound play to austentest."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (10:35)", "body": "Madame Directoire? Look what I saw in chat this morning? From: eva at 1/19/97 11:02 AM so when is the chat on Persuasion??? Should we schedule something, do you think?"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (10:40)", "body": "The only part that I wasn't clear on was that Mr.Elliot and Mrs. Clay ran off together in the book. I haven only read Persusaion once I missed that entire part(or didn't recall) it does come near the end of the book. Between computer info, JA info and everyday family obligations it can be a little much.;-)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (10:42)", "body": "Eva to cute or what,Amy LOL Got to check it out."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (15:00)", "body": "Amy, LOL re: your \"Too Unkind\"! I'm with you, I also can't stand Mary Musgrove. Wanted to strangle her even just from reading the book!;-)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (16:12)", "body": "Eizabeth should have been more handsome, if you go by the book; it doesn't affect the plot though. I thought Sir Elliot very well played; horribly funny and horrible..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (17:06)", "body": "I like the actress who plays Elizabeth when she plays sweet roles. Like in Maurice."}, {"response": 35, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (17:09)", "body": "A beautiful movie from a beautiful book. I loved the part where Anne first goes to stay w/ Mary & Charles, and everyone confides in Anne (w/o asking if she has any difficulties, of course)."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (17:12)", "body": "I really like this version of Persuasion...Amanda Root's eyes are so expressive, I felt so much for her and her struggles to maintain her composure around Captain Wentworth, I especially like the way she grips the chair when she sees Frederick for the first time after all those years! I know the *gasp* public kiss at the end has been a point of controversy, but I do like it very much...how it is all done in slow motion, savoring each moment...the hand clasp, leaning in, the kiss, how she slowly takes his arm afterwards and they turn to walk up the street, completely oblivious to the upheaval all around them. I never considered myself a particularily romantic person (a lewd person, perhaps, but not a sighing, mooning type person...but I suppose the time has come to admit that perhaps I am... sigh I too, hate Mary but shall save that for another post...;-)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (17:23)", "body": "\"I too, hate Mary. . . .\" Yes, Mary is not a likeable character. But Sophie Thompson, the actress who plays her, is super. She played her very much the way Jane Austen wrote her, IMO. [Cheryl, how could anyone ever think you are lewd?! I am sure someone put this idea into your impressionable mind, and you have taken it much too much to heart -- or someplace else, perhaps. ;-)]"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (17:55)", "body": "]I loved the part where Anne first goes to stay w/ Mary & Charles I also liked the use of a cart to take Anne to Uppercroft after the carriage for the party to Bath, with the bowing tenants lined up (I know Lady Russell took her in the book); it nicely shows Anne's standing with her family."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (17:57)", "body": "]Sophie Thompson, the actress who plays her, is super. I too think she gives a very good representation of Mary. I also thought she did a really good job as Miss Bates in Emma2."}, {"response": 40, "author": "mich", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "This adaptation was wonderful. I thought Ciran Hines & Amanda Root did an excellent job bringing the Characters to life. Capt.W indifference to Anne in the beginning broke my heart. The way AE\ufffds family treated her made me SO MAD at times. I found Elizabeth behavior towards Anne much worse than Mary\ufffds. Mary & Elizabeth differ in that Mary is stupid where Elizabeth (in this adaptation) is vicious and down right mean. I\ufffdm not defending Mary\ufffds behavior but with a father like Sir Elliot and an older sister like Elizabeth I\ufffdm not surprised she turned out the way she did. I have just as much desire to SLAP EE as Miss B. I liked AE very much but there were times I found her willingness to b treated poorly frustrating. How about when, during the \ufffdvery long walk\ufffd Mary told Anne\ufffds to move from her spot on the log so she could sit there. I have to laugh when I think of her trying that with some of you folks. I didn\ufffdt like the way the Mr. Elliot subplot was handled. I don\ufffdt think you get an accurate picture of what a despicable man Mr.E really was without the addition of what he did to Mrs. Smith. Couple things I found confusing the first time I viewed Why did Mr.E & Mrs. Clay meet secretly? I\ufffdm thinking of when Mary & Anne see them in bath from the Musgrove\ufffds room. Why at the end did Mrs. Clay stand up and glare at Mr.E when Capt. W asked for AE hand? Were they trying to imply some sort of conspiracy between the two? The way they had Louisa Musgroves hair always falling in her face & unkept was a nice touch. I thought it highlighted how elegant AE was in character & appearance compared to LM. OOP\ufffds to the film makers for the dress switch on AE scene coming out of Mrs. Smith\ufffds the last time. I'll end here and add more later Mich"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (18:53)", "body": "Kathleen: [Cheryl, how could anyone ever think you are lewd?! I am sure someone put this idea into your impressionable mind, and you have taken it much too much to heart -- or someplace else, perhaps. ;-)] Kathleen, thank you...I think...????"}, {"response": 42, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (20:28)", "body": "I really enjoyed the protrayal of Mary. Her brand of offensiveness does not make me cringe as the Bennet family does. She sniffs that she does not \"like the sea\" when the others are planning the trip to Lyme. she orders dry toast as the others talk of a seaside breakfast. she always says the wrong thing and always thinks she is saying exactly the right thing!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (20:34)", "body": "] Her brand of offensiveness does not make me cringe as the Bennet family does. __ It's worse for me. But you are right in making the distinction. I never thought about it, but it is a different kind of cringing. Just as Aunt Norris provokes her own flavor."}, {"response": 44, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (20:44)", "body": "Mary has no power - or apparently has none. She cannot do any harm - no one takes her seriously - no one cares much what she says - no one judges Anne by Mary's behavior. People might roll their eyes but that is all. Her demanding to stay at Lyme was the worst thing she did - but it really made no difference. Mrs. Hargrove did all the nursing anyway so Louisa was well taken care of."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (20:52)", "body": "I wish I possessed as much forebearance. I let people like Mary get to me."}, {"response": 46, "author": "jane", "date": "Sun, Jan 19, 1997 (21:15)", "body": "Amy: I like the actress who plays Elizabeth when she plays sweet roles. Like in Maurice. She was also great in Brideshead Revisited, as Cordelia. I agree with Donna and Mich that the Mrs. Clay/Mr. Eliot connection wasn't clear in the movie. Even in the book, it is a little odd that Mr. Eliot somehow thought he could keep her away from Sir Eliot. But really, I love this movie so much. I like the way everyone looks a little bit scruffy---Capt. Wentworth looks like he could use a dip in a big brass tub (now, why didn't the screenwriter think of that...) I like the way the faces were not Hollywood-beautiful, but really interesting. Louisa Musgrove had such a lovely fresh face."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (00:10)", "body": "Jane: I like the way everyone looks a little bit scruffy Yes, Jane, these were real people, I liked that!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (04:48)", "body": "Amy: It was saved in M-S *.wav format. I've changed it now. Maybe it will work. It downloaded but when it attempted to play, a message popped up saying that the sound file was invalid. :-("}, {"response": 49, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (04:51)", "body": "Amy: It was saved in M-S *.wav format. I've changed it now. Maybe it will work. It downloaded but when it attempted to play, a message popped up saying that the sound file was invalid. :-("}, {"response": 50, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (13:13)", "body": "It seemed that in the film, Elizabeth was almost the mistress and Anne some kind of lowly servant. I too loved Amanda Root's portrayal -- it was exactly right. If they had cast some glamour babe with tons of makeup, it would have ruined the whole story."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (16:52)", "body": "] Even in the book, it is a little odd that Mr. Eliot somehow thought he could keep her away from Sir Eliot. It has been suggested that this, and a few other loose ends in the book are the result of JA finishing it in a hurry, because her advancing illness prevented her from 'polishing' it any further. JA seems to have worked by completing a draft, then going over it, expanding it and refining it several times; she may not have had time to do this with Persuasion (it is much shorter than her other 'mature' novels)."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "I really enjoyed this from start to finish. I must admit, however, that I become so immersed in the timeframe that when I realized that they were going to kiss - and in front of the whole town - I audibly gasped in horror. Certainly Anne Elliot had better breeding than that! Other than that, I quite enjoyed the entire movie, and thought that the minor changes they had to make because of time restrictions were most appropriate."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (18:39)", "body": "Kaff in Persuasion when would they have been able to kiss? Between that meeting and the evening party they wouldn't have kissed at all like in Sense and Sensiblity. They would have had to make the movie longer."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (18:51)", "body": "Well, having the kiss was kind of a Hollywood payoff - can't have a movie where you don't see the kiss! I would've preferred it if they had postponed it until the last scene, on the ship. For me, losing the kiss would have added to the realism without detracting from the romance."}, {"response": 55, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (18:58)", "body": "] they were going to kiss - and in front of the whole town - I audibly gasped in horror. the kiss didn't bother me so much; one could imagine that the circus had distracted people and given them virtual privacy; and besides, the kiss was fairly restrained. The thing that did bother me was Wentworth's public announcement of their enegagement at the dinner party; most improper - he should have asked for Sir Walter's consent in private, and then they would have told their friends quietly, with a general announcement in the socieety papers. Blurtin it out at the dinner like that would have been improper and vulgar, I don't' think Wentworth would have behaved in such a way."}, {"response": 56, "author": "MaryC", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (20:00)", "body": "After reading the book, many things were clearer to me. There are scenes in the movie that are not in the book, and just like in P&P, there is more to the story in the end, that this movie skips over. For instance, the book explains that after they are married, Wentworth assists Mrs. Smith in acquiring the lost property belonging to her husband and thereby improves her standard of living. Anne and Wentworth also have a definite 'heart to heart' in a park after she reads his letter and meets him outside the building. I really like this movie but after reading the book, the way they ended it became a disappointment."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (20:23)", "body": "Some disconnected thoughts.... 1. Captain Wentworth is my kind of hero and Sophy Croft's life is so like mine it's unreal.Just wish I could afford to rent Kellynch. 2. Watched with my husband, who has never read the book, and got no build-up from me beforehand. His comments: \"Boy, he must really be in love if he's still mad at her after seven years!\" \"Is Sir Walter sleeping with that other woman?\" \" Is he supposed to be a closet Gay?\" Maybe I should make him read Austen-L 3. Best Actress Award should be shared by Amanda Root, Fiona Shaw, and Sophie Thompson. 4. I gotta buy it."}, {"response": 58, "author": "amy", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "I love Mrs Croft in this film, too. When she is talking about the places she has been and the times she was frightened? So sweet."}, {"response": 59, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (09:39)", "body": "I, too, loved this adaptation. It is very true to the book until the end. In less than 30 additional minutes, they could have told the story of Mrs. Smith's relationship with Mr. Elliot and explained the Mr. Elliot/Mrs. Clay situation; oh, well! Mary Musgrove is a most annoying, selfish, self-centered character. I wanted to slap her several times. But, I loved Sophie Thompson's excellent portrayal. I had not visualized Elizabeth Elliot as being quite as mean and nasty as she was portrayed (Phoebe Nicholls ??). I was a little bothered by the public kiss; more bothered by Captain Wentworth's public request for Anne's hand. Was most bothered by the voice-over of the letter. I wish that they had used Captain Wentworth's voice for the entire letter (which was relatively short). Some of the words were difficult to make out during the voice transitions. And, that letter was sooooo powerful; I really regret losing a single syllable. Linda"}, {"response": 60, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (11:04)", "body": "That letter was KILLER. I think it's one of the most powerful things Austen wrote. Anna - I too recall reading that JA wasn't able to polish PERSUASION fully due to her illness."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Karen", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "Linda and Amy2, I whole heartedly agree with you regarding the letter. I enjoyed the entire adaptation but the letter sent me into a romantic frenzy. I had to find the novel (somehow I missed JA in high school) and read that letter. It was fantastic! From the first words (You pierce my soul. . .), I just knew this had to be one of the greatest love stories ever. If P&P2 had not come out, this would be my favorite adaptation."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Kim", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (10:40)", "body": "My favorite part of the movie takes place at the concert. It seem as if Wentworth is getting ready to declare hinself when Anne must join her party.He looks so in love!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (11:21)", "body": "That concert scene was hot, hot, hot!! And that letter - if Darcy had written in such a fashion to Lizzy after Proposal #1, she might have gone running after him into Rosings!"}, {"response": 64, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (21:15)", "body": "]Mary has no power - or apparently has none. She cannot do any harm - no one takes her seriously - no one cares much what she says - no one judges Anne by Mary's behavior. Perhaps, but some of Mary's words are really getting to Anne. Words CAN arm sometimes. And how little she might count, it still hurts. ]Her (Mary's) brand of offensiveness does not make me cringe as the Bennet family does. But boy can she make your skin crawl. Isn't there anything worst than someone who hurts another without even knowing it? Reminds me of my mother in law (no kidding) always a disobliging word (think sword in the heart), she's not mean she's just truthfull, and by that can say anything without a conscience. Excellent interpretation from Ms Thompson, what a difference with her role in Emma. And the same to be said of Fiona Shaw, with a endearing portrayal of a loving and intrepid but down to earth wife compare to her very mean and ugly character in Jane Eyre. ]Was most bothered by the voice-over of the letter. I wish that they had used Captain Wentworth's voice for the entire letter (which was relatively short). Some of the words were difficult to make out during the voice transitions. And, that letter was sooooo powerful; I really regret losing a single syllable. So true. ]My favorite part of the movie takes place at the concert. It seem as if Wentworth is getting ready to declare himself when Anne must join her party.He looks so in love! He does misses to totally declare himself by a tenth of a second does he not. But following, that's when I REALLY don't understand Capt. Wentworth's so blunt refusal or should I say his coldness (dare I say disdain toward Anne's) at staying at the concert, especially after Anne's rushing to him and expressing her response \" but this is a love song\" sentence. That perplexes me most utterly Darcy with that letter, OOOOhhhhh Baby!!!!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (13:46)", "body": "I REALLY don't understand Capt. Wentworth's so blunt refusal or should I say his coldness(dare I say disdain toward Anne's) at staying at the concert, especially after Anne's rushing to himand expressing her response \" but this is a love song\" sentence. That perplexes me most utterly Anne, is this not Wentworth trying to protect himself from being hurt by her again? He is in a public place,watching her pay attention to Mr Elliott,and all the old wounds that he has been ignoring for years have suddenly opened up again. He protects himself with sarcasm at the beginning of the scene\"No, I have come for a lecture in Navigation!\"and he is about to take himself off again before he loses face and makes a real fool of himself.Now, if there was ahandy window, he could have pretended to stare o t of it, like someone else we know! But he hasno reason to stay, no guests of his own, and the only reason for him being there is torturing him.He is not in the mood to be conciliating!"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (13:47)", "body": "Sorry, Johanne! Your name got shortened in the passion to defend my favourite Austen Hero!"}, {"response": 67, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (15:54)", "body": "Love passion, what would we do without it, indeed ;) but still, was rather disturb of his opened coldness, forcefull enough for others to turn around at this spectacle."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (16:55)", "body": "Johanne dear, come to Pemberley! :-)"}, {"response": 69, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (16:57)", "body": "] Johanne dear, come to Pemberley! :-) __ The widow spider"}, {"response": 70, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (17:06)", "body": "Amy: The widow spider Amy! ;-p I prefer to think of myself as the Pied Piper, no wait, he lured the rats to their deaths. :-( What about a Siren? No...same thing...:-( Oh hell!"}, {"response": 71, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (17:10)", "body": "Candyman?"}, {"response": 72, "author": "claudine", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (17:15)", "body": "I'm rather new at this, so pardon my awkwardness in posting... in response to messageg# 56 of 67f from Mary C. Fox (MaryC) * Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (20:00) ]the building. I really like this movie but after reading the book, the way they ended it became a disappointment. I've only made it to the middle of the book, but I must admit that I too, was a little disapointed with the ending. Anne and Wentworth, in the final scene, certainly did not look like the same couple who kissed in the streets of Bath, oblivious to the harlequins, dancers, and various costumed circus folk and townspeople around them. On board W's ship. there wasn't even a touch, and as the scene ended AE and W were staring off in different directions. One might speculate, though, that this was because t ey were obliged to exercise more propriety on board Wentworth's ship...(?) Or does the scene imply an unstated understanding between two individuals so much in love and so used to each other that nothing else is needed? What do all of you think?"}, {"response": 73, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (17:27)", "body": "Or does the scene imply an unstated understanding between two individuals so much in love and so used to each other that nothing else is needed? __ Their smiles and contentment spoke volumes. Of course, this was not in the book either. We never hear if Anne does follow Sophie's life's path. I've had a secret hope that the ship is taking Napolean to St Helena and Anne instructs Nap on the proper blend of prose and poetry for one in exile."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Lynbl", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (17:40)", "body": "Did anyone see the early BBC production? I thought Anne looked as if she was in her 40s! And the only thing that fascinated me about her was the fear that her awful hairdo would tumble... I felt that she was so worried about it, that it made her very careful how she moved! I couldn't see Anne being bothered with creating such a thing. I liked Brian Marshall as Captain Wentworth in that production, but over-all would have to agree with you all that this latest show is the best by far. And that letter - I couldn't help thinking that it was obvious that it was written by a women, knowing what a women would swoon over."}, {"response": 75, "author": "sld", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (18:26)", "body": "I am going to pick up the BBC version tonight. Johanne: The meanest words in the movie - when Mary says to Anne, \"YOU haven't a mother's feelings...\""}, {"response": 76, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (21:36)", "body": "Mary: you are all right in disliking her so much. But I did enjoy her character in the movie, while in the book I felt her oppressive. Her tacky mouth makes Anne turn away in shame in the book. In the movie, we see less of Anne's feelings when Mary is 'performing' and more of glimmer of amusement in everyone else - and we know Anne is not in anyway part of the object of that amusement. Mary seems to me, as I watch the movie, like someone being officious in a vacuum. Nobody cares. They notice only to smile secretly at one another."}, {"response": 77, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (22:23)", "body": "]Johanne: The meanest words in the movie - when Mary says to Anne, \"YOU haven't a mother's feelings...\" ;) coming from someone who as barely a clue of what it is to be one (bare with me the possibility of some not having the maternal instinct) Resembles something I heard once before (see my previous post for the clue : which implies another woman point of view is simply wrong in her view, TSK TSK) ]They notice only to smile secretly at one another. It's too bad when company has to resort to this, but...on r\ufffdcolte ce que l'on s\ufffdme"}, {"response": 78, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (00:26)", "body": "Question. If Elizabeth (who was a true viper) was so handsome and she is older than Anne, why is it that no one it says Elizabeth is an old maid. It's not like she has this great personality. Casting the actress who played in the role made it clear why she had no suitors but I don't recall JA mentioning it either. Can someone offer some thoughts?"}, {"response": 79, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (00:53)", "body": "I think JA made her sufficiently cold and vain, enough to let us imagine her trouble in finding a mate."}, {"response": 80, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (12:19)", "body": "I have similar questions about why Miss Bingley was not talked about as an old maid; surely she was older than Lizzy; and was unmarried for about the same reasons as Persuasion's Elizabeth."}, {"response": 81, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (12:53)", "body": "About Miss Bingley--maybe it was because she was rich. What was that line from Emma about a single woman always being respectable provided she had money? Of course, that doesn't explain Elizabeth. Maybe it all comes down to the ladies' arrogance--I personally would quail before saying something contemptuous about either Caroline or Elizabeth."}, {"response": 82, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (16:32)", "body": "] Miss Bingley was not talked about as an old maid; surely she was older than Lizzy I don't think there's any evidence either way in the book, although it was cast that way in P&P2"}, {"response": 83, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (17:57)", "body": "I was in the video store tonight and saw a video of PERSUASION that featured a couple on the cover that looked like something from a Harlequin romance novel. I thought that maybe there was a version I didn't know about, so I picked up the box. It was the Amanda Root version!! They used two models who aren't in the movie for the cover of the video! I could only think that anyone who isn't familiar with Austen and rents the video because it looks like a bodice-ripper is most certainly going to be disappointed (or else discover a type of romance eminently more satisfying than Harlequins)."}, {"response": 84, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (18:37)", "body": "I was glad to read of the comments regarding the voiceover of the letter. I found that so distracting when the words are so beautiful. I have the old BBC version and agree that that Anne looked quite a bit older. There was also something \"funny\" about her (can't explain it any better than that), but otherwise I thought it was very good. As for Amanda Root's portrayal, I had a hard time with it. The book doesn't say Anne is ugly, just that she's lost her bloom (which she gets back at the end). AR did not strike me as somebody who would incite long-term passion. She just wasn't Anne for me."}, {"response": 85, "author": "sld", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (20:31)", "body": "'AR did not strike me as somebody who would incite long-term passion.' Ah comeon, Susan. She wasn't THAT bad! And by the end she was kinda cute. (Maybe he liked her for her personality. LOL.) Now in the BBC version, SHE was ugly. My little niece keep saying, \"EEEWWWWW, look at her hair.\" What bothered me even more about her appearance was her mouth. There is just something not right. But then at least in the BBC version, Frederick in a hound dog as well. Neither one of them had a personality that I found endearing, either. And Kathleen, my video was packaged the same way. Fraudulent advertising to attract those who don't know any better."}, {"response": 86, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (21:38)", "body": "This is an article from Time about Persusaion November 1995 Who will see Persusaion , the glorious adapation of Jane Austen's last novel,and say, \"I am Anne Elliot\"? Any good woman, or man, who feels overqualified and underappreciated. In the bustling society of Bath, Anne (Amanda Root) tends to everyone's needs while shielding her broken heart from the sudden reappearance of the man (Ciaran Hinds) she ever loved. Anne is the sort of sweet spinster whose beguilements are so unnoticed by her family that, should the prince charming ever announce that he wish s to marry Cinderella, her pompus father would exclaim in shock, \"What ever for?\" Thriftily made, Persuasion manages to be both, panoramic and intimate,satiric and poignant. Its gifted cast includes old friends(Corin Redgrave, Smauel West, Fiona Shaw) and new ones (Hinds,whose intensity suggests a more regal Kevin Costner). But its leading lady is the true treasure. There are faces the camera loves at first sight, like Sandra Bullock's and those the camera learns to love, like Root's. Her beauty is a secret she shares only with the audience. This is a movie that recognizes th luster in kindness, and in which an image of one hand touching another can convey a profound emotional jolt. Persuasion is (ahem)British. It was written and directed by (sigh) men-Nick Dear and Rodger Michell. Nobody's saying that the Brits have a lock on domestic drama or that it takes guys to make a superior women's film. Persusaion is simply that one little movie that gets thing done. To perfection. -RC It was titled under \"Women of the Year\" and subtitled \"That Feminine Touch\" that is why the reference to \"men\" making the movie. \"Women of the Year\" this quote was under this title. They're gaining power in Hollywood and using it to make films that woman-and men-want to see. This also the time when Clueless came out and a few others. I can really appreciate this review now more then ever. Donna."}, {"response": 87, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (00:49)", "body": "Re 85 Susan, I must admit, I agree with your comment of Amanda Root whole heartedly. Sorry for her fans, but can help it. Had the same impression, particularly when she looks in the mirror and is suppose to gotten back a bit of her youth/beauty. It did'nt do it for me at all. Also, she's suppose to be the calm pillar of strenghth. I found a rather peek of weakness instead. Or maybe a certain lack of passion disturb my liking it. Emma Thompson's portrayal in S&S was more passionate and she was the rational one. ike you said Susan : did'nt ignite passion and neither had really it. Do not mistake, I very much enjoyed Persuasion but it comes after my preference of (evidently)P&P2 and I must say, (do not be alarm, please) Paltrow's Emma. no offense intended..."}, {"response": 88, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (12:11)", "body": "I like the Roots/Hinds version of Persuasion better every time I watch it. Three times so far. It has that feeling of real life, real people, 'scruffy' was it. If a girl travels on top of a carriage leaving her home and the wind is blowing, her nose should be red and her hair not all that tidy. And as they are gathered round the fireplace and making plans for the Lyme trip. one girl's hair is not at all wellcombed and someone is warming his/her foot by holding it out near the fire. It feels as if you were actually there in that cottage with them resting after an autumn walk. Found it a bit odd that Anne would actually run after Wentworth at the concert in such an obvious manner that made people turn their heads. And Why Did not Captain W. pretend to forget his gloves as he always did before and come for his umbrella instead. I think gloves are more private, and so suits this occasion better."}, {"response": 89, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (12:48)", "body": "And Why Did not Captain W. pretend to forget his gloves as he always did before and come for his umbrella instead. I think gloves are more private, and so suits this occasion better. Maybe CH made a mistake and they couldn't afford a re-take!:-}After all, actors, as well as heroes,are less endearing when they are perfect! It has that feeling of real life, real people, 'scruffy' My sentiments exactly,ma'am!Let's have more like this!"}, {"response": 90, "author": "sld", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (14:05)", "body": "'Do not mistake, I very much enjoyed Persuasion but it comes after my preference of(evidently)P&P2 and I must say, (do not be alarm, please) Paltrow's Emma. no offense intended...' I think this is true, Susan, for many of us - and not just because of the films but the characters themselves. I for one, connect more so with Elizabeth Bennet, that I find all other Jane Austen's heroines falling short. We WANT Anne to have the strenth of character not to have let herself go, or loose her bloom, in the first place, but she didn't have it. I am sorry to pain you but so it is. I have a little trouble initially feeling for a woman that practically cuts herself off from society in regrets over mistakes she may have made, but I am happy that she gets herself together in the end."}, {"response": 91, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (14:14)", "body": "] I have a little trouble initially feeling for a woman that practically cuts herself off from society in regrets over mistakes she may have made, __ I wish I did not understand this either, but I do, too well."}, {"response": 92, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (15:31)", "body": "Thanks for the insights on Amanda Root. I do plan to watch it again, but must warn you that my good opinion, once lost, is lost forever. I forgot to mention that I loved Ciaran Hinds as Wentworth and agree that the actor in the earlier BBC production was incredibly wimpy. I saw him in Circle of Friends soon after (you can guess who I was really looking for) and liked him very well even though he had such a small role. And thank you, Sharon, for the comment on the BBC's Anne's mouth. That was the \"funny\" thing I couldn't describe, but you are spot on."}, {"response": 93, "author": "Karen", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (15:38)", "body": "Sharon, regarding your response #90, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I too so related to Elizabeth that all her other heroines fall short but I still do feel for Anne. I don't really think she has cut herself off from society; I think she is taken for granted by her family and has further reason to regret her decision to refuse Fredrick. Typically I would not have been drawn to Root's Anne but I found this adaptation wonderful. And, as Amy2 says, after Wentworth's letter, I melted (I too found the do ble voice over annoying). The depth of character revealed in Anne, Fredrick and the Crofts won me over. I understand how Root's Anne can be seen as weak but I interpreted as woman beaten down by circumstances and just trying to continue on the best she knew how. Her family was quite dreadful so I think her passivity was a coping mechanism like we've deduced Anne de Bourgh's illness to be. Sharon (and others who feel like her) I know I may not be able to convince you but maybe if you watch it a few more times (and of course read the novel to get the true depth of emotion) I believe you will grow to enjoy this adaption. I know I have posted this often but this adaption introduced me to JA and is (to me) second only to P&P2."}, {"response": 94, "author": "sld", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (18:43)", "body": "'Sharon (and others who feel like her) I know I may not be able to convince you but maybe if you watch it a few more times (and of course read the novel to get the true depth of emotion) I believe you will grow to enjoy this adaption.' Oh, but I absolutely enjoyed this adaptation. I don't feel a need to have a great sympathy with Anne to value some of the points (as long as there is a very good one)of a narrative. There were few enough things that a woman had control over in Austen's day, but how she chose to personally respond to situations was one of them. You have to make you peace with things, and Anne is a good example of what becomes of you when you don't. Yes, we can all understand how and why Anne chose her particular path, b t would that be the answer for us? Should it be? I am a believer in physical manifestaion of the mental condition, to some extent, so all the hullabaloo about Anne's appearance in the films, particulately the Amanda Root version, does not offend nor suprise me. I viewed the film makers representation of Anne as trying to get this point across - 'This is what happens when something eats away at you.' And that is what I pointed out to my young niece."}, {"response": 95, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (19:25)", "body": "I also like the Root/Hinds version of Persuasion - the more I watch it the better I like it, except, as everyone has mentioned, the voice over with the letter. Couldn't make out a single word!! Persuasion has long been my second favorite Austen book (after P&P of course) and I think Root's interpretation was right on. I've never thought of her as particularly handsome, and she wasn't; but her eyes did have a lot more sparkle by the end of the film than at the start. I got used to Hinds - when I first saw it in a movie theatre he wasn't my idea of Frederick, but since then he's grown on me very quickly and I now like him very well indeed. His best role though, IMHO, was in Hostages as Brian Keenan. I particularly liked Sophie Thompson - she made Mary as unendurable as she is in the book, and whoever played Mrs. Croft - loved her spunky spirit, general good manners and niceness (bad word) to Anne. Elizabeth was far too ugly to have ever been thought better looking than Anne, or was she only thought that by her father?? When I finish the book again will have to watch the movie yet again!"}, {"response": 96, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (12:07)", "body": "Please, do not mistake my comments, this is a very good representation of the novel (not counting the little discrepencies like the umbrella). Amanda Roo performance was exact to the nature of Anne's character : you could feel for her struggles and her sense of lost, watching her going against the tide while going on with her life with as much serenity and phylosophy as she could. My comment resides only to comparing it to my own personnality (therefore to elements I prefer), and it's a selfish perspectiv . This film has so many remarkable moments: especially her dialogue with Capt. Harville, while W is writing the most romantic letter in any JA books. It is I believe the most faithfull image of that period and you love this film as well for having taking this avenue of representation. Comparing this with Paltrow's Emma is comparing Apples and Oranges, while both are fruits and come from trees. But you can love them both, and not for the same qualities."}, {"response": 97, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (16:35)", "body": "Ann2 ]I like the Roots/Hinds version of Persuasion better every time I watch it. Three times so far. It has that feeling of real life, real people, 'scruffy' I to like the realistic feel to this Persuasion; besides the things Ann2 points out, the way the bottom edges f the cloaks/coats gets dirty when they walk along the muddy lanes, and the way the lawn at Kellynch looked scythed; Pemberly was so manicured. Anne Elliot is second only to Elizabeth Bennet in my estimation, (a purely personal assessment), she doesn't have the fire and joie de vivre that Lizzy has; I thought Amanda Root's portrayal of her excellent. Although there were several changes made for the screen-play the only one that grated on me was the method of Wentworth's announcement at the end (which I won't rehash). I've enjoyed all the recent Jane Austen adaptations, for me Persuasion2 was only second to P&P2."}, {"response": 98, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "The realism as you say Anna is in S&S and P&P2.What was the difference in the film they use in each production. Persuasion has a quality(film) that P&P2 doesn't or maybe it is my tape. Yes, I always wondered how,who and what cut the grass."}, {"response": 99, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (18:06)", "body": "The realism as you say Anna is in S&S and P&P2.What was the difference in the film they use in each production. Persuasion has a quality(film) that P&P2 doesn't or maybe it is my tape. Yes, I always wondered how,who and what cut the grass."}, {"response": 100, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (18:09)", "body": "] Persuasion has a quality(film) that P&P2 doesn't or maybe it is my tape. on my system the film quality is better in P&P2; both are purchased tapes..."}, {"response": 101, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Fri, Feb  7, 1997 (19:46)", "body": "I thought Persuasion was exquisite! I have to agree with Caroline that she is my favorite heroine as well. How many of us have been persuaded to do something else, when we know we should have been true to our heart... A beautiful movie."}, {"response": 102, "author": "Marsha", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (17:16)", "body": "I just recently saw Persuasion for the first time and was amazed! For me, Amanda Root, was Anne as I imagined her, and by the end of the movie, I began to think her almost pretty. Wentworth did not look as I thought he would, but I got used to that. And Mary was so grating I wanted to slap her-especially when she was going on about staying at Lyme, or playing the piano, or hurting Anne in a thousand small selfish ways. The scene that really got to me, however, was when Anne stayed with the sick child, and they showed the party at the house through a window outside-to me it felt and looked as lonely as Anne must have felt, and it showed her loneliness. I found myself almost hurting for her during the movie. Btw, did anyone else think that Charles looked like a stuffed mouse?"}, {"response": 103, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (21:01)", "body": "Marsha: Btw, did anyone else think that Charles looked like a stuffed mouse? hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee"}, {"response": 104, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (23:51)", "body": "Mary was so grating I wanted to slap her. The general consensus, Marsha! Btw, did anyone else think that Charles looked like a stuffed mouse? \"Chipmunk cheeks\" was how someone referred to him, I believe."}, {"response": 105, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (14:35)", "body": "After fiesting at the fair in Charlotte's web, but prettier"}, {"response": 106, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (09:54)", "body": "I love that Templeton character, Johanne. Did you know Hil make an enormous puppet of him?"}, {"response": 107, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (20:35)", "body": "I love this adaptation, just like I love this book. I am torn between Persuasion and P&P as my favorite Austen novel. I think Amanda Root is great in this...you feel like she is a real person, like she has lost some of her bloom. And the way she looks in the mirror after Mary repeats Wentworth's comment \"he should not have known her\"!!! I love how quiet this movie is, no loud obtrusive music (although it is sometimes hard to hear the characters speaking, especially in the beginning). But I agree tota ly with the earlier comments about the voice overs on the letter.....it's such a fabulous part of the book!!! I could watch this over and over just like I could P&P (only in a much shorter time!)!!"}, {"response": 108, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (09:13)", "body": "My husband and I rented Persuasion this past weekend; I had just finished the book beforehand. I'll admit, it took me a while to get used to the realism in terms of makeup, sets, etc.....I'm rather partial to the \"ethereally glowing\" sort of heroine acheived by makeup. Still, this production grows on you! I did find, however, that I had to explain certain character relationships to my impatient husband, who had never read the book. I think that the screenplay explains the relationships adequately, but like Lynn, we had trouble hearing some of the beginning exposition and had to really crank the volume on the t.v."}, {"response": 109, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (09:23)", "body": "I can hear it now, Tracey. \"You must... retrench ,\" Lady Russell said in a soft, calm and carfeul voice. \"You must WHAT?\" yelled Mr. Tracey."}, {"response": 110, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (10:31)", "body": "LOL Amy! Yes, I had to explain \"retrench\" to my non-Austen friend whom I strong-armed (who, me?) into watching with me. In fact, I finally gave her the remote so she could pause any time she had a question! But once we hit Lyme, she stopped pausing and the \"Ooohs\" that issued from her lips during The Letter were very nice indeed! Another JA convert-- Mission Accomplished!"}, {"response": 111, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (12:19)", "body": "Amy - it was more like this: \"You must... retrench,\" Lady Russell said in a soft, calm and carfeul voice. \"Is there a war on? Who ARE these people?\" - my husband, english major and military history buff. And, to be fair, it took me a minute to figure out that Lady Russell was not talking about plumbing equipment ;-) \"Why on earth would the Elliots need a wrench?\" I guess we loud American types take longer to adjust to moderate tones........"}, {"response": 112, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (12:42)", "body": "That's funny, Tracey. Different times and places. Though my 8 year old is getting to like P&P -- he loves Lydia! -- my big guy at 12 finds the guys a \"bunch of wusses.\""}, {"response": 113, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (21:43)", "body": "Templeton Amy, my mom (the snowbird) bought Laurence the video (its all new to me, haven't been brought to this tale either). Haven't heard Paul Lynd' voice since the Hollywood Square. How wonderful and creative Hil, a giant size rat :)"}, {"response": 114, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (21:54)", "body": "wrench and wusses - LOL"}, {"response": 115, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (22:25)", "body": "Isn't that Charlotte's Web cartoon great, J? I love the music."}, {"response": 116, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (22:33)", "body": "Oh Yes Amy, felt like being a child all over again, and it really grows on you, you should see LA trying to sing charlotte's song and she just love it, first on the list these days (and she does not understand the language yet so it says a lot)"}, {"response": 117, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (23:11)", "body": "and she does not understand the language yet so it says a lot) __ Yes! She just feels it. Neat."}, {"response": 118, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (01:18)", "body": "Plumbing, wrench..??!! Now whose piercing the heart here!! hahaha Was there an earlier adaptation to the 1995 Amanda Root's Persuasion? Having only read the book last year so that viewing the video would make sense, I was overwhelmed by the tension between Capt Wentworth and Anne from the kitchen scene and moved to almost tears by the carriage scene which he helps her into, no words needed - just body language and understanding for each other!! That sideward glance too, so believable!! Sir Walter Elliot was played well too, as the self-centred and vain a man as he was."}, {"response": 119, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (02:08)", "body": "Serena: Was there an earlier adaptation to the 1995 Amanda Root's Persuasion? The BBC did a version of it in the 70's. We had a Virtual View of it earlier this year, the topic should still be up if you care to read our reviews. The consensus is that it was pretty bad...stick with amanda Root and Cairan Hinds! ;-) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 124, "subject": "Another Jane Eyre in pipeline", "response_count": 26, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (10:55)", "body": "With Ciaran Hinds as Rochester Yeahhhh"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Zimei", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "(I don't know what happened to the text in my last mail ... here is it again!) I found the following the other day when I was doing my regular \"Austen-surf\". Another Jane Eyre in pipeline - what a feast! I don't believe a bit about the nonsense of CF being typecast if he does another costume-drama hero though. Colin has such an amazing ability to transform himself into whatever roles he plays. Nobody seems to worry about Kenneth Branagh becoming typecast with all those Shakespearan (sp?) roles ... Q: Can you tell me what English manor house was used as Pemberley in A&E's Pride and Prejudice? I think Colin Firth would make a great Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre. -M.C. Defiance, Ohio. A: Exteriors of Mr. Darcy's family estate were filmed at Lyme Park on the Cheshire-Derbyshire border in southwest England. Interiors were filmed at nearby Sudbury Hall. Firth would run the serious risk of becoming typecast by taking on another role such as Rochester. You can catch the actor later this season in a PBS adaptation of Joseph Conrad's Nostromo. A&E will be giving Jane Eyre its miniseries treatment next season, but Ciaran Hinds, who starred in the feature version of Jane Austen's Persuasion, will play Mr. Rochester. Samantha Morton, who has a featured role in A&E's upcoming Emma, will take the title role in that production."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (13:12)", "body": "Hinds could turn out to be the definitive Rochester. There hasn't been a great one yet, do you think? I like Dalton the best, but a new nice lush production will be heavenly. http://us.imdb.com/M/title-exact?%22Jane%20Eyre%22%20%281983%29%20%28mini%29 That is the link to the '83 Dalton version on the IMDB. Look at the bottom of the page where it tells about all the other versions, especially very very early ones. I wonder if there was some sort of Jane Eyre kick or revival happening in the early part of the century."}, {"response": 4, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (13:36)", "body": "And to think I almost rented it last night. But I finally rented Enchanted April, was way too tired to watch. Did anyone catch Biography of the year Bill Gates??????"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (14:06)", "body": "Which one did you almost rent Roar? Did not see the bio show, but Joan was giving some play-by-play in chat."}, {"response": 6, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (14:25)", "body": "I have always preferred the Dalton version to the Welles (or the Hurt). I did like George C. Scott as Rochester, however, although I thought Susannah York was wrong for Jane. I look forward to Hinds. (How is it we have never mentioned the actress playing the title role? Hmmm)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (14:44)", "body": "I almost rented JE with Dalton. Everytime I go into the chat room noone is there. where's HC?????"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (14:52)", "body": "I will meet in you there Roar. You having a slow day?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (19:29)", "body": "Did anyone catch Biography of the year Bill Gates?????? Yes - sort-of - with divided attention. :-) It was very well done - viewed him from every imaginable perspective - family members, peers, employees, competitors, financial analysts, etc. . Whatever opinion one may have of him and his ambitions, there is no doubt that he is a very interesting fellow!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "claudine", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (01:04)", "body": "Hinds in a new JE! I'm tremendously excited. Loved Persuasion with Amanda Root! I _am_ partial to the Dalton version; however!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (12:56)", "body": "Watched the Fontaine, Wells version of JE just this weekend on AMC; hadn't seen it in quite some time. I was always a fan of the Dalton, Clark version, but seeing Wells, who is not usually a favorite of mine, made me think that Tim hammed it up a wee bit too much. I much favored the understated delivery of Wells, much to my surprise."}, {"response": 12, "author": "mich", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (15:13)", "body": "I also loved the Wells version of JE, Wells melodrama was perfect. I haven't seen the Dalton, Clarke version but plan on renting it soon. I really disliked the version with William Hurt. Although the age difference between the two may be historically correct, every time he touched her it made me uncomfortable. Kept thinking \"get your hand off her you old fart\" Mich"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Lauren", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (20:25)", "body": "I absolutely loved the version with Welles too but I love Ciarin Hinds in Persuasion so this should be quite a treat for me!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (20:34)", "body": "What is is about him, Pamela?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Jan 11, 1997 (12:51)", "body": "HI everyone! I love Ciarian Hinds, especially the piercing of the soul speech. Has anyone seen him in the Catherine Cookson melodrama, The Man Who Cried, where once again with Amanda Root?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan 11, 1997 (13:49)", "body": "And he will be with her again in the BBC thing about Turing."}, {"response": 17, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Jan 12, 1997 (13:43)", "body": "Ciaran Hinds -- Another actor w/ \"fine\" eyes. There's such an intensity about him. I've enjoyed watching him in other parts, such as Circle of Friends, Hostages, even The Cook, the Thief, His Wife and Her Lover (a weird movie, IMO)."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 12, 1997 (13:52)", "body": "Intensity. Is that it? He is the type who would look you right square in the eye, isn't he?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "alix", "date": "Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (17:57)", "body": "This would be the what, fourth version of Jane Eyre produced? I don't know, but I always thought that Joan Fontaine looked like a deer caught in headlights henever she looked looked at Wells. Maybe it was just the lighting. Don't get me wrong, I like the movie, I just didn't like Fontaine. Just had to put in my half -cent."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (01:00)", "body": "Saw Hurt version the other night and did not like him as Rochester, too darned nlond ;-) Just kidding but he felt unnatural somehow. The actress playing Jane Charlotte ? was rather well cast I thought. Amanda Root was doing one of the school teachers there. Prefer Welles to this one not having seen Dalton yet.And Ciaran? Yes that could be something I am halfway through The man that cried...don't remember what interrupted me. Amanda had not shown up yet."}, {"response": 21, "author": "eljo", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (04:30)", "body": "Ann, I agree with you about the Hurt version of Jane Eyre. Hurt was compleatly wrong as Mr Rochester and there was just too much missing from the book (among other things the whole story about Jane's cousins). But the money for renting the video was well spent anyway because of the location they had chosen for Thornfield. I spent a wonderful day with some of my dearest friends at Haddon Hall in Derbyshire and really enjoyed seeing it in this movie. Lookimg forward to see the CH version eventually and if i can beat the Dalton version."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:29)", "body": "I loved Hurt's Rochester. He was the saving grace of the film."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:26)", "body": "I agree that Hurt was not my favorite Rochester. That distinction actually belongs to George C. Scott, who was wonderful . Such a bummer that that version is not available on video. Timothy Dalton was also very good, though."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (23:47)", "body": "Susan: Timothy Dalton was also very good, though. Speaking of which, the Timothy Dalton version is our next Virtual View set to begin discussion on March 9. To Blockbuster ladies!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (23:50)", "body": "One stray thought: Why, if it is called Jane Eyre , do we identify versions of the films by the man who played Rochester? ;-)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:30)", "body": "You think of that Cheryl, intriguing n'este pas? So Hilary, you did not like Jane actress in that version? I think I missed something in the Rochester performance- no not the look- I can survive a movie without that quality..;-) Maybe I must rent it once more if you found it good. I can not find Dalton version. Is it available in Lund(Or is it G\ufffdteborg?) Elisabeth ? austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 13, "subject": "Ranges- Forgotten", "response_count": 4, "posts": [{"response": 13, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (20:08)", "body": "I forget! (Like a bumper sticker sticker says, \"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.\") BTW, what happened to the Darcy/Colin drooling thread?!? It must have gotten too appalling to keep, perhaps. \"Drooling\" sounded like infantile/senile eating problems, anyway! :-) How about a more elegant thread title like \"Darcy's Sartorial Splendor & Facial Finesse\"? Might result in more sophisticated postings from his admirers? I dunno, mebbe."}, {"response": 13, "author": "panache", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (21:26)", "body": "Mich- \"Ranges, Forgotten\" seems to refer to those topic threads you may be in and then accidently, or purposefully, hit the \"Forget\" button at the top of that page, which \"erases\" that topic from your main menu list of topics. It has now become a \"forgotten\" topic thread, but you can see it again by clicking on Forgotten, All range at the Main Menu page; (it shows you your \"erased\" topic titles again so you can re-enter them if desired."}, {"response": 13, "author": "panache", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (21:34)", "body": "France- the Darcy/Firth drooling thread is still around; you must have somehow hit the Forget button while at topic 4 thread so now it's reachable on on your Forgotten, All range back at Main menu. It is not lost."}, {"response": 13, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:11)", "body": "Ah! This is the same question I've been pondering, but not with regard to \"forgoten\" topics - Cecily has that one right in #2 above - BUT, if you have chosen \"new\" it appears that only topics that have received new posts since your last visit are visible, so \"drooling\" or whatever would not appear again until someone put in a new post. But if you wanted to add one yourself, you'd have to go back to the \"all\" option - and then would all your poihnters be set back to the beginning again, so everything wou d be considered \"new\"? austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 136, "subject": "Writing a love story", "response_count": 46, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Adi", "date": "Wed, Jan  8, 1997 (22:00)", "body": "the movie Jane Eyre with William Hurt finally got here (Israel), and the distributors came out with a special offer: tell us a great love story and win a trip to England! I really, really, really want to go to England (I want to go to Brighton...), but I'm afraid my creative writing skills are not so good - especially when comparing it to the great abilities some of you possess (Wendy, Katy, Cecily and more). Please, please help me to write the story... It could benefit everyone here, since we all love romance (I know it\ufffds a lame excuse). I would be forever indebted to you. The story should be about a victory of love (this is what Jane Eyre is all about, isn\ufffdt it?): love story that stood out against difficult tests, that succeeded even if everything and everybody was against it, that will make the reader to lose a heart beat!. It\ufffds only have to be one page. P.S: if I\ufffdll actually win the contest, I promise you, right here and now, that I\ufffdll share my prize (a week in England for two people, including touring the castles in which Jane Eyre was filmed) with the wonderful sweet generous person (I know I\ufffdm not very good as a flatterer) that will help me win the trip!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Adi", "date": "Wed, Jan  8, 1997 (22:29)", "body": "but in terms of copyright authorship credit, in case this contest is actually a look for a possible upcoming scriptwriter offer by the movie company running it. well, I don't think it's anything like that. they probably just want to sell the movie. I'm not even sure if they are planning to publish the winning story in the newspaper."}, {"response": 4, "author": "jane", "date": "Wed, Jan  8, 1997 (23:13)", "body": "Adi, You start it! Then you can post it here bit by bit and get feedback. Good luck, Jane"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Adi", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (02:56)", "body": "this is the problem: I don't have any ideas. I can write a nice story if I really try, but I'm afraid I'm not that experienced when love is concerned. I'm just 20, and all the love in my life was always one-sided (i loved him or he loved me). there are a lot of romantic people here happily married, so I thought they could help me from thier own experience."}, {"response": 6, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (08:14)", "body": "I can't help in writing, for I'm not yet 12, but I can help you to transfer it to hebrew."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (08:21)", "body": "Ayelet are you really 11?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (12:26)", "body": "Okay the time is 1942, Sharon is 23 Marc is 25, both are in love and are being transported to war. They make a pact that when the war is over they will meet at a certain location on a certain date at a certain time. Sharon is a nurse with the red cross heading to Europe, Marc is on the front lines heading to Japan. along the way several characters interact and such. One never makes it to the desired location.... Run with it folks."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (12:33)", "body": "Shades of an Affair to Remember, Roar?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (14:20)", "body": "Laura, you have a good premise, but don't forget the audience here...Adi is in Israel, and while our culture remembers WWII in terms of soldiers and battles, Israelis remember it in terms of the Holocaust and so this may not be the best setting for a love story. Then again it could be, but perhaps not necessarily betwen a Red Cross worker and a soldier... You could move the permise, Adi to the Seven Day War, or go back further in your own history to the Macabees..."}, {"response": 11, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (17:39)", "body": "Marc is Jewish. He specifically requested the European theater as his grandparents are (were) still alive in England at the beginning of the war. He is missing in action behind enemy lines in Europe, presumed captured. There is reason to fear that he has been sent to a concentration camp. Sharon, who is not Jewish, volunteered for the Red Cross inspections of the POW and concentration camps in hopes of finding Marc or finding our about Marc. Her parents still hear from her regularly, but she has not returned home since the end of the war."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Donna", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (18:31)", "body": "I don't know if any of you saw the women who spent her years in a concentration camp,but she was on the AWards,last year and on Oprah. Her story of friendship a nd determination was remarkable, and in the end a wonderful love story to tell.Everything else said, she met her husband an American Jew fighting the war. Her story pertained to SList.She was such a brave and an wonderful person. I truely admire her strength. It still makes me cry when I think about of it. Donna"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (20:12)", "body": "Donna, you're talking about Gerda Weiss, I think. I was so glad that she stuck to the podium and gave her speech at last year's Oscars in spite of the time-up signal. It was well worth hearing and the best acceptance speech of the evening. Wasn't her husband an American soldier who found her and other women somewhere in Czechoslovakia on a death march? A real, true love story, indeed."}, {"response": 14, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (22:33)", "body": "Amy, yes, I am, i hope you don't mind, I REALLY love P&P."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (22:39)", "body": "Of course, not, Ayelet. I just had to wonder. My 12 year old has only recently started reading for pleasure; I feared he never would. But he will not tackle anything very challenging. I am so glad you are with us. Let us know if we get too adult -- in any way."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (22:52)", "body": "Amy: Let us know if we get too adult -- in any way. No, no, we wouldn't want that to happen! Heaven forbid! But I don't think we are in too much danger. ;-)"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (23:24)", "body": "Adulthood is highly overrated."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "Amy: Let us know if we get too adult -- in any way. Cheryl: No, no, we wouldn't want that to happen! Heaven forbid! But I don't think we are in too much danger. ;-) would you believe too adolescent? ;-)"}, {"response": 19, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (06:54)", "body": "Amy, you mean he dosen't like to read? good heavens, what's the matter with him? I can't imagine my life without books! I'm trying to read P&P (a little every evening), but I fear that I don't know ALL the words JA uses, but my excuse is that I'm a beginner in English, becouse I live in Israel. my mother is a real JA fan, and through her I met JA and P&P, she watched P&P2 one afternoon, and, after you watch Lizzy refusing to Darcy's preposual (which was the scene I happend to see), you can't help falling in love with P&P, can you? Thanks for letting me stay, thanks a lot!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (08:46)", "body": "Maybe I should get him to correspond with you, Ayelet!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (15:13)", "body": "Ayelet, I must tell you that you remind me so much of some girls that visit my library. They seem to share your deligth in books and it is such fun to find them good ones to read. Amy, I often find that boys are a little less mature in their reading habits, but mostly, given the inspiring sort of surrounding *you* can't help but providing, he will sooner or later discover the fun of it. The trick migth be to introduce books but not give them any sort of dull homework association. For instance read aloud together and if he really enjoys the book, you suddenly have no time for several days to continue...be sure to leave the book where it can be found! Am I a children's librarian or not? Forgive my lecturing manner.It was kindly meant;=)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (18:51)", "body": "Good idea, Ann."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sat, Jan 11, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "Amy, have you come across a book called 'Midnite' by Randolf Stow? It might appeal as a read aloud book to your older son (and your little guy might enjoy it too). Its funny, about a bushranger, and is often studied here in lower high school."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan 11, 1997 (19:49)", "body": "No, but I will look for it, Hil. Thanks."}, {"response": 25, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Sun, Jan 12, 1997 (22:29)", "body": "Hilary, can you think of a good book for me? I'll look for it, I seem to finish all the books (not including my father's philosophy books) at home, or the good ones in the library."}, {"response": 26, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (22:02)", "body": "Oh dear ! Adi, have you seen the winning stories? They asked for real stories, and they got lots, but the winning story is just AWFUL! have you read it? I was shocked when I read it yesterday! Oh well, nothing's perfect."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Adi", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (18:29)", "body": "yes Ayelet, I've read it and I'm astonished as you are!. I was absolutely certain they wanted a fictional story... It's a good thing I didn't waste my time trying to write that story after all. I had 2 major tests that week, so I didn't have time to write, and I was sorry to miss the opportunity to maybe, just maybe win something I really want. but I guess it's all for the best. I'm planning a trip to England next summer, so eventually I'll get there... and about the winning story: it was dreadful!, like a terrible soup opera, such an awful love story! I was amazed when the kibutznik said he took all her furniture: does he actually want people to know about it?! P.S: I've wanted to ask you that before - How come you have such a good English?. don't tell me you learned it at school, cause I know the English level in the 5th grade in Israel, and it's not so good, to say the least."}, {"response": 28, "author": "sld", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (19:59)", "body": "SHE IS A SMART KID!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (22:23)", "body": "How did I learn? I must confess, I was born in NY, we lived there for 3 years, and then moved to Israel, and almost never used English, so I forgot a lot of my English, but the internet helped me to work on it, and when I knew enough to read, I begun to read the books in English for begginers we had at home, really thin ones, and sort of gradually went on. One day my mother came with \"Little Women\", she told me she bought it for me, I was really astonished, but I begun to read, it took me long to f nish it (Three weeks!) but I did it, and I was proud of myself."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (22:45)", "body": "Ayelet, it took me that long at 10 too. Do you suppose your early familiarity with the language somehow came back to help you?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Carine", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (05:04)", "body": ""}, {"response": 32, "author": "Adi", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (15:46)", "body": "well, Ayelet, I knew it has to be something like that... I'm sure you are a smart kid (as Sharon said), anyone at your age expressing himself as you do must have some brains, it's just that my sister, also 11 years old, who I consider very intelligent can't quite understand what the English teacher wants from her... IMHO, one can't learn a foreign language just by sitting in the classroom 5 hours a week, no matter how smart he is. you had to talk, read, write and breath it (or even better - live in NY)."}, {"response": 33, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (16:15)", "body": "Learning is far more interesting when you have an emotionnal interest in the subject, nothing like a good incentive"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (16:20)", "body": "It's even harder to learn a language in the US. Most school systems do not start teaching other languages until students are about 12, which is much too late to start learning. The brain is already wired for English and does not want to learn something else."}, {"response": 35, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (16:57)", "body": "}Most school systems do not start teaching other languages until students are about 12, which is much too late to start learning. Without mention, language here in Montreal is a subject much discussed. Some \"international school\" appeared in the last decade and some are teaching english in 1st grade and spanish in 4th or 5th. A younger mind is much more malleable and genereally closed to outside prejudices. There is although a definite positive influence when parents are exposing (positively) their kids early on to different cultures. From personnal experience, I learn basically through TV, mom never understood neither the language nor the anglophone culture. And my brother is closer to being unilangual, even if we had the same exposure. A mixture of interest and a definite easyness to learn surely advantaged me in the long run. Similar qualities and a vaguely similar experience happened to my dad, close to no schooling (3rd grade), working at 11 years old, he learned some yiddish and english while working in a factory. But for grammar and a deeper comprehension in litterature, I had to wait in High School, and like you say, 2 hours a week don't go far. ]The brain is already wired for English and does not want to learn something else. On this I have to argue. It might want to learn given the right incentive. Amazing how international connection (an american or australian boyfriend ;) experience opens your horizon. Nothing like being immerse in it (no joke here Cheryl). And you try not to drown. Brain is malleable enough given the right inducements to go further, beyond and broadening it's limits. It might seem more painful and difficult as years go by, it is true, but so much is possible."}, {"response": 36, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (16:59)", "body": "teaching english in 1st grade and spanish in 4th or 5th : I should have mention in a francophone school, which gives it another perspective."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (19:46)", "body": "Some people can learn languages at any age (scum balls), but studies have shown that the brain actually does wire itself for the languages it knows. Some languages have sounds that are very similar, if you do not grow up in that society, you will literally not be able to tell the difference between the sounds. The brain simply can not tell the difference. As the brain developes it becomes structured to hear and understand the languages it is familiar with. If you try to learn a language after this process is complete (in the early teens, I think), it is harder than if you started earlier. I studied German in high school and then Ancient Greek in college, the Greek was much harder to keep in my head than the German."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (21:04)", "body": "Ann2: . . . studies have shown that the brain actually does wire itself for the languages it knows. Some languages have sounds that are very similar, if you do not grow up in that society, you will literally not be able to tell the difference between the sounds. I thought that the difference was not in understanding (hearing) the difference, but it reproducing (speaking) it. I've heard that your ability to produce certain vocal effects, like for instance the gutteral ghhhhhttt found in Yiddish, is determined by the time you're two years old. I can make that sound (though not very well) because I heard Yiddish spoken as a baby, and it's helped me in French, in producing those sounds that start at the back of the throat. The maddening part is hearing the ound spoken perfectly and not being able to do it myself!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (00:30)", "body": "Yes indeed, Ann, we must differenciate what becomes almost instinctive and what is later a learned process therefore less instinctive, more of a thinking skill. Just by reading my post you can understand what I mean. ;)"}, {"response": 40, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (03:00)", "body": "Johanne: Nothing like being immerse in it (no joke here Cheryl). And you try not to drown. Johanne is an excellent swimmer! It is bad enough trying to use ordinary language in a \"second\" language, but today she \"swam\" in a geek-talk chat meeting that had my own poor English speaking brain spinning! I cannot imagine myself surviving that in French!) Ann: studies have shown that the brain actually does wire itself for the languages it knows. Though this digresses from the topic at hand, this is indeed true - you are now in my specialty. :-) Infants make all sorts of sounds, many not used in their own \"native\" language. Those of the predominant language are \"rewarded\" and encouraged, and the others become extinguished because nobody responds to them. The prime time for language learning, though, is birth-age 5 or 6, and the first two years of life are especially important. These are the years in which the sounds of the child's language ar \"imprinted\" in their minds. By the time a child enters school, the best time for learning a language is already past. It is still easier to learn before one learns to read and spell. Once the sounds of one's spoken language have been linked with the visual symbols, it is very difficult to un-link them. I know how to pronounce a French \"r\" - but it takes tremendous effort to make myself do it - especially if reading aloud. This is also why the experts feel that children raised in institutions in which there is little individual attention given to each child during infancy never do develop language profficiency equal to children who are raised in situations in which individual attention is paid and stimulation given to the child at this critical age. Families adopting disadvantaged children from foreign orphanages are finding that no amount of stimulation given later on in the child's development can make up for what was l st during the first year or two of a child's development. Joan, too"}, {"response": 41, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (13:31)", "body": "Joan, too: I saw a tv program last week about children adopted from Romanian orphanages -- confirmed what you wrote above. In fact, they showed that the brain scans of many (though not all) of these children showed little or no activity in the language center of the brain. Sadly, there are fewer adoptions being allowed at any ages out of Romania, even though there are still many children warehoused in state institutions. It was enough to make you weep or scream."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (14:30)", "body": "Joan, too I recognize what you have said from my work with children and books ...and from own experience. My son was about ten months old when he came into our lifes from Chile and the first weeks the only thing he said that we could understand was Que (spelling?) as in \"what, what is that\" . A smile comes to my face as I recall the sound of his tiny voice. He arrived in time I think I may safely say.He has our sense of humour and no trouble to melt into the family on behalf of language. Kathleen I too, have seen those films from institutions in different countries and agree from bottom of heart. If only every child could have a home with love and people to listen and care !"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (14:53)", "body": "You had other children first, Ann2? Tell more."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Adi", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (15:19)", "body": "Johanne and Anne3, I was pleasantly surprised that both of you mentioned Yiddish. As far as I know it's a dying language that only Hasidim and old Russian jews still talk. my late beloved grandparents used to talk Yiddish, and as much as I tried I couldn't learn it from them... but it's such a beautiful language!. it practically has a word for everything under the sun and there are a lot of witty expressions. Anne3: I've heard that your ability to produce certain vocal effects, like for instance the gutteral ghhhhhttt found in Yiddish you probably mean the letter \"Hat\" (ghhhat) in Hebrew. as someone who has this letter in her surname (Sha ch am) I can say that you are absolutely right!. many people form abroad just can't pronounce it, so we call ourselves \"Shaham\" whenever we aren\ufffdt in Israel. I have the same problem trying to say \"th\" in English. It always comes out as \"S\" or \"F\"..."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (17:06)", "body": "Adi, I'm sorry to say that while my grandparents spoke Yiddish as their native tongue (they all came to the U.S. as children), and while my mother and her brothers and sister all learned to speak it fluently, it has not been passed on to the third generation. My mother had the attitude, typical among second-generation Americans, that to be \"ethnic\" was embarrassing. She wanted to assimilate herself into American culture, which in those days meant an exclusively WASP culture. It's not as bad now, I thin ; people know that American culture is a blend of many others, and they try to preserve what they can of their family's heritage. But the closest I ever came to learning Yiddish (other than picking up a handful of invaluable expressions from older family members and friends) was a course given in summer camp when I was nine or ten. And all I remember from that was how to count to ten! :-("}, {"response": 46, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (10:14)", "body": "Johanne, when my sister lived in Montreal (she did her fellowship for pulmonary medicine at McGill) she told me about the daughter of a friend of hers. The father was from Spain, the mother was Norwegian and the girl went to an international school, by the time she was seven, she could speak Spanish, Norwegian, French and English. I learned remidial Spanish as part of an experiment in 6th grade--I can still count to ten. I took French in high school and college, but have no opportunity to use it, so have forgotton most of it. In high school, we used to speak amongst ourselves in \"franglais\", which was a combination of French/English, were we would revert back to English whenever we did not know the French word something. Example: Ma souer est un medicin, qui specializes dans les lung diseases."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (10:20)", "body": "In high school, we used to speak amongst ourselves in \"franglais\", which was a combination of French/English, were we would revert back to English whenever we did not know the French word something. Should read:In high school, we used to speak amongst ourselves in \"franglais\", which was a combination of French/English, were we would revert back to English whenever we did not know the French word for something. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 14, "subject": "Forgotten? Not Gone", "response_count": 8, "posts": [{"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (21:53)", "body": "France, if you have already read the message, it won't show up in \"new\" mode. Hit \"All\" or \"This week\" and the messages will reappear. Also, when you start a new topic, the first window is just for the topic name and sub heading. The window you see that looks like a message window is for a longer description of the topic. Once the topic is defined you can go to the thread (or topic) and enter a message in it. Amy"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (23:32)", "body": "Oh dear - I think I just created a couple of very long sub-headings. New board, learning new tricks - what's intuitive to the guy who writes the software is often not so for me! Anna"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (00:05)", "body": "I did the same thing. The field looks like a place to put a message. It's too long for a sub head."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:27)", "body": "Amy, it doesn't seem to hurt if you do put your text in as a sub-header - it comes up as message 0, but people joining the topic can still see it, and you have the option of going back to message 0 if you want to reivew the topic. This set-up looks like it would cope with large volumes better than the one you were running, but I really liked the overview one got with your set-up, and the way the threads could split and develop new headers, providing an outline of the development of an idea. I suppose it was supplying all that information that eventually made your P&P2 BB crash, but it *was* a really nice set-up. Anna"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (05:40)", "body": "Me too, Anna. I like the outline, cascading structure."}, {"response": 14, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (12:54)", "body": "This is a different model, it keeps a single thread without branching. I suppose you'll have top open more topics than you had before to preserve different aspects of conversations. This format has worked very well on ECHO, the WELL and Electric Minds, three highly successful online communities."}, {"response": 14, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (15:54)", "body": "Yes, BUT it makes it very difficult to indicate what you are responding to without ending up doing a lot of quoting of old material. Also, if there are many new postings, by the time you get to the end, you have forgotten what all of the things that you wanted to say about earlier comments are. It's much more efficient, spontaneous and natural to be able to attach comments directly to the posts that they are referring to!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (18:37)", "body": "I know (sigh), it makes it nicer for nonlinear people like you. We just decided to adopt the same model as the WELL and ECHO (etc.) when we built this because we saw how well the users responded to the interface in these other places. Also, this software doesn't offer threaded, branching type conversations. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 142, "subject": "Spring cleaning", "response_count": 42, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (23:12)", "body": "Topic 141, Go Pack, messages moved to Ramble. Topic killed Topic 131, New calendar, messages moved to #1, Conference business. On deck to be killed."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (05:22)", "body": "there's nothing I like better than a nice clean spring!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (06:55)", "body": "Do you need any more hands, Amy?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (07:51)", "body": "Thanks, Myretta. Johanne is coming up with a plan, which will be a revision of the suggestions made by Joan and Kaf in the austentest conference. Right now I am just making sure I do the moving right so I can show Johanne how to do it. We'll probably do a bunch of pruning initially, then get somebody to volunteer for regular topic maintenance. Were you around at all when Joan and I were chatting about bringing back the old board format for informal discussion and topic generation. Joan, can you put it in words? You have a better handle on how it might work than I do."}, {"response": 5, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Jan 15, 1997 (08:04)", "body": "Were you around at all when Joan and I were chatting about bringing back the old board format for informal discussion and topic generation. I missed that discussion and would like to hear the details."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (01:22)", "body": "Well Amy, I've done the reading at test Austen and now I'm terrified that I won't have time to read it all before it eventually expires... No, I'll be serious. I understand that something must be done - but *if* we can archive most of it I think some newcomer's agree with me. It get's you more updated and familiar with all the goings on here, if you can catch up on old discussions. I've been around since September, and still have not been able to read all of it."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Elaine", "date": "Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (12:03)", "body": "Spring cleaning sounds very hygienic but might I put in a plea to keep a few topics small so that my antiquated system can continue to lift them? I can no longer get into topic 59 and some of the larger ones with images. I seem to have rather limited access and now foresee the day that I will be relegated to posting under the very unpopular topic of watch fobs."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (16:29)", "body": "]a few topics small so that my antiquated system can continue to lift them? Elaine, does your system make you look at 'all' all the time? If you use 'new' or since/-1 your sysem should only be trying to download the posts you haven't seen or the posts in the last day respectively. If you've been away for a while or struck by old-is-new, since/-1 works well; the full address is; http://208.199.212.10/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/all/since/-1 The other thing I often do is opt not to download the images since I have a slow modem at home; mostly I don't miss them, although occaisionally curiosity gets the better of me."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (17:04)", "body": "Linda - I just downloaded the Prodigy internet software. I haven't signed up yet, but the documentation did say that I could continue to use my Netscape browser with it, so that would be my recommendation - download Netscape and use that instead."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (17:09)", "body": "Okay - I've never had \"old is new\" but I do have a phenomenum that is pretty darn annoying! Often, when I click on a topic near the end of the list, I get \"Conference Business\" instead! So I clicked on \"Spring Cleaning\", got \"Conference Business\" instead, saw Linda's note about Prodigy, responded to it - and the response showed up in \"Spring Cleaning\"!!! GRRRrrrrr!!!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (00:40)", "body": "Amy: Were you around at all when Joan and I were chatting about bringing back the old board format for informal discussion and topic generation. Joan, can you put it in words? You have a better handle on how it might work than I do. It's hard to think about all of the ramifications that come up in a conversation without the questions being asked to generate them, but the basic notion was to try putting up a \"Matt's Script\" type of format as the \"entry area\" here, and use it more or less as the \"social hall\" where conversations could spiral off in all directions as they used to at Bluemarble and we could respond to specific postings, and see the html in the text entry window, and people could get to know one another more informally an conversationally than is possible in the Yapp format in which you have to wait till you get to the end of the topic before you are \"allowed\" to say anything - which feels more like a series of speeches than a conversaation. And then, as particular threads pick up steam and start indenting across the main page to the right, those entire threads could be moved off into a new topic in the Austen conf and continued there, instead of just beeing removed as they formerly had to be at Bluemarble, and this would make room for more new stuff to generate. Links to where the spun off topics got posted could be there. This way, new people would have a very informal and user-friendly area in which to start out and meet people, and could be directed to other particular items of interest from there - links to other related sites, to other conferences and/or topics at the Spring, to our archives of no-longer-active-but-still-of-interest conversations, etc. etc. etc. Hopefully, spinning off threads into the conference(s) would keep the volume low enough so that the scripts would not crash and burn, and then discussions would be automatically archived and nobody would have to mail them out to newcomers, and people could be \"absent\" for a few days and not have everything that had been said while they were gone no longer there when they returned..."}, {"response": 12, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (00:41)", "body": "(anyone else who was there and remembers something else that was said about this, please do add onto this...)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (02:09)", "body": "No, I can't think of anything to add, Joan, and it is beginning to seem like a better adn better diea all the time."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (02:15)", "body": "well, then, go to it girl! ;-)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (02:18)", "body": "well, then, go to it girl! ;-)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (02:21)", "body": "!!! :-("}, {"response": 17, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (02:27)", "body": "!!! :-("}, {"response": 18, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (02:30)", "body": "now wait just a minute!!! I did not post either of those second posts! I am extremely put out! :-("}, {"response": 19, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (04:08)", "body": "there's been hints of a new ricochet bug..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (06:58)", "body": "And then, as particular threads pick up steam and start indenting across the main page to the right, those entire threads could be moved off into a new topic in the Austen conf and continued there, This is an appealing idea, but I fear that it would really increase the administrative work load for Amy and the Hosts (but probably especially for Amy). Is this not so?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (07:23)", "body": "Well, maybe, but at least now there are people to sing \"doo op doo op!\""}, {"response": 22, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (08:32)", "body": "]Well, maybe, but at least now there are people to sing \"doo op doo op!\" True, true. Tone Deaf but Willing."}, {"response": 23, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (14:34)", "body": "\" I fear that it would really increase the administrative work load for Amy and the Hosts \" I don't think it would be significantly more work that it used to be to remove and archive all of them - would it Amy? Besides, I'll bet that HC could probably figure out an AWK that could do it automatically. :-)"}, {"response": 24, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (08:50)", "body": "I do see some technical problems (though not necessarily insurmountable ones) with trying to \"Yapp-ify\" non-Yapp bulletin board postings. Here's an example of what a posting (from topic 101) looks like in a raw Yapp file: ,R0000 ,U11,churchh ,AThe Mysterious H.C. ,D32E01C3B ,T http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/emmaoldm.html ,E Here the \",R\" line indicates the status of the message (scribbled messages get \",R0003\"), the \",U\" line shows the posting user, the \",A\" line indicates the \"pseudonym\" used, and \",D\" encodes the time (probably Unix time format -- no. of seconds since Jan 1 1970 -- in hexadecimal, or base 16). \",T\" and \",E\" appear to be start and end of message markers...."}, {"response": 25, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (09:01)", "body": "I could devise a filter program (more probably Perl than Awk) that would austomate a lot of the format translation stuff, but deciding what topic to archive a posting under would be an \"executive decision\" that couldn't be automated. If we're going to do this, we could bring back the whole archives of the old board (Terry has plenty of disk space, right? ).... Anyone remember my old proposal, from just before the old board crashed the second time?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (09:21)", "body": "That's right. I remember. Sounds like a big job all the way around. Thanks for the willingness to tackle, it Henry. Let's talk more first. I still can't exactly picture it."}, {"response": 27, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (17:57)", "body": "I have tons of disk space on access.spring.com Henry, if you need an archival area."}, {"response": 28, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "Maybe the picture would look something like this? --"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (18:40)", "body": "Okay, these kinds of representations help me. Let me let it soak in. One thing. If the center of the whatever it is, is the selection process, what is the \"thing?\" It is not the board. Love the baby P&P2BB new. It should have little bitty place on my teeny site."}, {"response": 30, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Jan 18, 1997 (19:31)", "body": "The classification process would be the most human-intensive activity, but it wouldn't really be the \"center\" of the board... Remember, this second one is Joan's idea, not mine..."}, {"response": 31, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (15:23)", "body": "Hello all, Well this is it. As Amy wrote, it makes a lot of sense to proceed by steps. The long awaited archiving (idealy at Spring as graciously offered my our beloved Terry) will take place soon but first we have to get some particular problems solved. We have to decide what to archive : as the first step, some obvious topics which are not relevant anymore because time passed by, I believe, should be readily archived such as : Topic Title 13 Ranges-Forgotten 14 Forgotten not gone 35 A&E Classroom ... 37 Thanks-giving and other catas.... 65 On the first day of christmas... 98 Christmas gifts 102 Party Party Party... 104 Birthday Ball 110 Merry Hollidays to all In this possible list for archiving, any comments, approval or disapproval. I suggest a meeting in the Sollicitor's office on this subject say next Friday at 8 pm eastern time . Pray confirm or suggest any other wise. When we talked of archiving and spring cleaning at the beginning of the month, many topics were inactive then due to low traffic and a lot of us away for the hollidays. Things have definitely picked up since and most topics have been active in the past 7 days. So: Is there a time limit to a dead topic : if a topic is non-active for a certain time, how long should we allow until removing it. I suggest a period of 30 days. So, if a topic goes inactive during this given time, it could be removed to the archived site. Speaking of site, this archive site would probably be linked with a tag at the beginning of the opening page of the BB. BTW, due to the various pruning operations that has occured and will surely be done again (and I personnaly hope to a vast extent since so many topics possess the same basic subject) some renaming I believe will be in order as well. I'm finishing a list and will suggest it to you soon. This will undoubtebly open the door to other questions and am eager in your comments as we will share those decisions. This will be posted in the austentest conference as well."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (15:59)", "body": "Johanne, I'm awed by the amount of work and thought you must have given to this. Thanks for doing it, your suggestions look good too me."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (16:09)", "body": "I thank Johanne as well, for doing this step and for agreeing to lead the cleaning team. For those who do not read the austentest conference, I should point out that Kaf and Joan did a lot of preliminary thinking about the sifting too."}, {"response": 34, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (16:22)", "body": "I will be happy to join the meeting and assist if I can. Am I wanted?"}, {"response": 35, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (16:28)", "body": "Myretta and all of you friends of this beloved BB are very welcomed and most invited to this little gatering, so Friday at 8 pm eastern in Sollicitor's. I am but your humble servant in making this BB more enjoyable ;)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (19:37)", "body": "Of course, Myretta. I should have kept you in the loop on this. We won't be doing anything drastic for a while, and will test how to move topics by copying first and all that."}, {"response": 37, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (19:42)", "body": "Thanks, Amy. I just realized I'll be in Maine this weekend and computerless. Please just email me or post what you'd like me to do. Or I'll catch you when I return (Sunday). I am, as always, glad to help."}, {"response": 38, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (12:10)", "body": "New tentative date for meeting : Monday at 10 pm easternUS in Sollicitor's, please confirm your presence here if possible"}, {"response": 39, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (13:17)", "body": "Monday at 10 pm easternUS I'll be there."}, {"response": 40, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "As of today, 24 January 1997, find the following topics which where inactive in the last 30 days : 8 3 Maurice (LauraM) 10 34 Col. Fitzwilliam (Cheryl) 12 10 Denny (mich) 13 4 Ranges- Forgotten (mich) 14 10 Forgotten? Not Gone (alfresco) 19 12 Does this work? (geekman) 20 9 Where we left off (Amy) 21 6 Signs you are seriously addicted to P&P2 (Zimei) 26 48 austen.com (terry) 27 32 Six Degrees of Colin Firth (Kaffeine) 28 7 Elizabeth and about herself accept propos (signatur) 31 17 Archives (was Darcy's appearance) (Amy) 32 10 TEP L.A. premiere pic with CF (Zimei) 33 53 incredibly dumb and stupid questions (for newbies) (terry) 35 1 A&E Classroom bright and early! (Ann) 37 24 Thanks-giving and other catastrophes (was P&P1) (Anna) 41 27 Dark Darcy & Lizzy (Zimei) 42 31 P&P 200 birthday! (ayelet) 46 5 Jane and Bingley (kendall) 49 6 Rules, Regulations and Videotape (Anna) 52 7 Topic 32 crashes my system! (Ann) 53 14 NetMeeting Q &A (Kaffeine) 54 15 Outer garments (Linda409) 55 21 Roger's pictures from Lyme (Amy) 57 11 'Mozart wigs' (baka) 62 23 Wickham: Unprincipled or Unfortunate? (Anna) 63 12 Creating a Jane Austen Newsgroup (geekman) 65 22 On the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me (fen) [although Kali left he brief post there today] 66 7 Darcy's \"nearest relations\" (Saman) 71 33 Virtual View: P&P 1 (Cheryl) 75 8 Just a thought (Donna) 77 11 This little matter of our addiction... (panache) 78 6 Serenades (Amy) 79 5 Solving disorientation in the Netherfield drawing room (Amy) 80 4 CF Quote 1000Acres/P&P (Ann) 81 8 Yapp tricks discovered (Amy) 85 20 The gallery upstairs (Amy) 86 4 Computing for Dummies - read a good book lately? (kendall) 89 7 ONE Question for Jane Austen (lisaC) 97 6 Dance music site (churchh) 99 22 Jane Austen's Fave Music (Becks) 102 25 Party rty - It's Jane Austen's 221st Birthday! (geekman) 105 5 Sickly and Cross (Amy) Those could be archived, kept for our enjoyment or pruned with other similar topics. To be discussed during next Monday night's meeting. May we suggest a full review of the spring cleaning topic in austentest, here's the link for your convenience : http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/read/read/austentest/11"}, {"response": 41, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (19:48)", "body": "one more try : http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/read/austentest/11"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (21:21)", "body": "Moved from topic 13, \"Ranges forgotten.\" __ Topic 13 of 170 [austen]: Ranges- Forgotten Response 5 of 8: Johanne (JohanneD) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (14:39) * 3 lines Took this one cause its was it didnt have a long list of messages : got the bug again the \"all is new\" kind : got a theory now : I press the auten conference button on the top of the buttons before the topic indicator at the very first beginning of the page. Ttell me if there's a way to make a topic as read without having to go through it till the end, so it wont show up again in the \"New\", dont want to go trough 16? messages some 300 long ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 13 of 170 [austen]: Ranges- Forgotten Response 6 of 8: Amy (Amy) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (16:41) * 3 lines Johanne, one way is to use /since/-1. Then go back later and clear up the other older threads gradually. Makes one see the need for the cleaning, no? Sorry we have still not done your training. I am still not completely comfortable with the process myself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 13 of 170 [austen]: Ranges- Forgotten Response 7 of 8: Myretta (mrobens) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (16:45) * 1 lines Johanne, I was thinking we might have some shell training when you come down for the weekend of the 22nd. Should we set this up? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 13 of 170 [austen]: Ranges- Forgotten Response 8 of 8: Johanne (JohanneD) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (00:39) * 3 lines Myretta, love the idea, was fantasizing (maybe a big word) about it. This is going to be great!!! When are your availabilities, during the week-end or before, this will be included in the when-to-come-done decision Thanks Amy, cleaning? my thoughts EXactLY!! Took me close to 4 hours last time, imagine now! Yeah, was'nt sure cleaning was still on, glad to know it is ;) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 146, "subject": "Exhibition of film costumes", "response_count": 25, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (06:09)", "body": "One of the EMMA outfits was the striped yellow and white cotton dress with short sleeves, that she wears when she get's stuck in that water with her carriage and meats with Frank Churchill for the first time. It has a crispy freshness. Yellow georgette shawl with a fringe. White straw bonnet. Main impression was soft colours and materials - male outfits excluded. but a few woman wore other stuff. Miss CAROLINE BINGLEY was in her thich silk dress, thin stripes of black, burgundy, gold and curry brown. Long sleeves, spencer(=short jacket)without sleevesin patterned silk, matching colours. Some sort of'wings'(hardly appropriate)on her shoulders give it a royal touch.Very handsome dress IMO.(she wears it at the supper when Jane is taken ill + and in the flashback they trick Mr Bingley into abandoning Jane + maybe more). I would like to wear ELINOR DASHWOOD's black-and-whitechecked silk frock with white fischy and black chiffon shawl. Everso beautiful was Fanny Dashwood's evening gown, really dark blue silk covered with golden shots and with golden edgings and tassels. Like the sky one starlit winters nigth. Funny detail: A ridicule of ELIZABET ELLIOT's was made to look like a pineapple, warm yellow and green, matching her yellow velvet spencer. LIZZY had that creamy thin silk dress with long sleeves. Pale mintgreen(Amy!) spencer with short puff sleeves. Straw bonnetw. mintgreen ribbons. (She wore this several times. When she is introduced to Miss Darcy at Lmbton inn, second proposal...dress even first proposal I think, her favourite as I remember from Ann's list)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (08:09)", "body": "Speaking of Ann's list, here it is. It is also at http://www.bluemarble.net/~amyloo/wwwboard/costlist.html Lizzy's Costumes, The List Or How Ann Spent Her Time While Looking for a Job I went through P&P2 looking for the different dresses which Lizzy wore, trying to answer the question: which one does she wear the most? The answer is that there are two which she wears nine times, both are florals. One has large pinkish flowers, the other has a gold waist band (this one may just be a print, I can\ufffdt really make out the pattern). There is some uncertainty in my tally. For example, when she wore the same dress two scenes in a row, I would usually count it only once, but at other times when there could have been (or should have been) time passing in between the two scenes, I counted it twice. On one occasion that goes the other way, there is a separation of scenes, when there should not be--all the scenes before Lydia\ufffds wedding should take place on the same day, with Jane and Lizzy talking that night. There are two dresses which seem to be polka-dot (I can\ufffdt really tell on my tape, they may just be a small print) which are hard to tell apart. One has a slightly lighter background wit no trim on top but dark trim on the bottom hem, the other has a slightly darker background with dark trim on top including buttons on the front and no trim on the bottom but with dark wrist ties. Points of interest: Lizzy is wearing the same gown, a gauzy white-on-white stripe, when she first sees Darcy (opening riding scene) and when she first sees the new Darcy at Pemberley. In between these two scenes this dress is not worn at all. She wears the same gown for both of Darcy\ufffds proposals. The polka-dot dresses tend to be worn in the winter, the florals in the spring and autumn and the stripe and criss-cross in the summer. She seems to get a new dress in the summer, the w ite-on-white criss-cross is first seen when Lydia goes off to Brighton. After that she wears it a lot. The List With number of times worn in () and a scene in which it is worn: (8) White-on-white vertical stripe (gauzy)-----Opening scene and meeting at Pemberley (8) Linen colored stripe-----church in the beginning , both of Darcy\ufffds proposals (8) Polka-dot with no trim on top, dark trim on bottom-----Collins\ufffd proposal (3) Polka-dot with dark trim on top, no trim on bottom-----walk to Netherfield (5) Embroidered party dress, white-on-white-----Meryton ball (9) Floral with gold waist band-----gathering flo ers with Jane after Meryton ball (4) White party dress with green front panel-----Lucas Lodge party (9) Large-pink flowered-----Mrs. Bennet\ufffds visit to Netherfield (3 in A&E commercial broadcast; 4 in full dose) Red-----Dinner with Mr. Collins Netherfield Ball gown (6) White-on-white criss-cross-----dinner at Lambton Inn Wedding gown There are six Bonnets : Straw with blue ribbon, Tan all-fabric, Straw with brown fabric in back, Big rust bonnet, Flat rust bonnet (only worn in Kent), Wedding bonnet. There are eight Jackets/Coats : Light-blue jacket, brown patterned jacket, rust jacket, black jacket, Netherfield Ball coat, long blue co t, dark-grey jacket, Wedding coat. Also 2 different night gowns one with a collar, one scoop-necked which is always worn with a filmy robe over the top. Scarves: Long red plaid, long white, very short white, maybe two lace scarves, bedroom scarf. Only one necklace (cross). Jane has at least three: cross, pink bead, and pearl drop. (Can you tell I have a lot of time on my hands!!) Ann 10/28/96"}, {"response": 3, "author": "jane", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (09:35)", "body": "Ann2, What fun you must have had! Any information on whether the exhibition will be traveling around? Jane"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (09:52)", "body": "Oh, I should clarify for our newer friends, Ann2, who saw the exhibit, is in Sweden; Ann, who lives in Minneapolis, made the Lizzy list."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (10:02)", "body": "Ann, it would have been fun to have you with me at the exhibition. Your comments would have been those of a true proficient. exhibition report part 2. If, by any chance, someone would like to know what MR DARCY prefers when he is visiting Sweden, I shall be glad to inform you. Black breeches, black coat, white linen shirt(sigh), white cotton cravatte, black boots with brown upper part (Cheryl, did you hear. I've actually been in the same room as those boots and that shirt . The waistcoat is one of my favourites - for I have several - creamcoloured. The milieau was deligthful, all P&P characters were presented in a salon with a tea-table, mirrors and a fireplace. All the others were placed together in a larger drawingroom. More than once did I sneak back into that salon...I'm afraid the magic will disappear, dare I even wash my hair? But it wexed me, that they had placed Mr Darcy at a distance from the rope. No chance to gently stroke that firm woolen sleeve...I bet they knew what they were doing. The fabric on one sleeve could have turned threadbare from stolen moments of worship. Why Harriet Smith for instance, she was placed close to the barrier. But who would ever wish to touch her? Such a nasty freckled little thing...(sorry Mr Martin) Two more details: The high black hat was placed on a chair behind him. Thank goodness for that, for he had no head to place it on.(They were not dolls you see, just dummies.) I am glad they left faces and eyes(Donna!) to our imagination. And I found out that I'm not all that daggy after all, as I had never observed the jewellery on his clock string(control yourselves Grace and Cheryl !). It resembled a broache all in gold and pearly parts with 3 tiny pendulous pearls set in gold. For evening use I should imagine, so next time at Netherfield ball or Pemberley I'll look for it. While we are at it, I might as well mention that COLONEL BRANDON in handsome red military coat and creamwhite breeches was sort of stuffed in a surprisingly daggy manner. Not sure it was intentional...!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (12:31)", "body": "\"Clock string\" Ann, do you mean the thing that hangs from his waist? I have always believed that such is called a Fob.Which could lead to some bad jokes about fobbing you off, I suppose.\"Clocks\" usually refers to the embroidered bit on people's socks, believe it or not.Very popular about fifty years before Mr Darcy.Yes, I know I am being pedantic here! BTW I am extremely envious of your experience. I don't think I would be able to content myself with just stroking the sleeve...... I think I would have tried to run off with the whole coat!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (13:15)", "body": "Anns & Amy: A big LOL on the \"subtitle\" for your list. Lucky, lucky Swedes! They get all that sunshine in summer, and now this!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (13:18)", "body": "Oh Jane, I'm afraid I know very little, but the next stop was to be our third city (inhabitantwise) Malm\ufffd situated in the south of Sweden, close to Copenhagen and the north of Germany, but I'm sorry still far off from US. Is there not another dress show at Lyme Hall? Bernie, do you know anything? I think two smart Swedish lads were responsible for this one. They had produced one with the clothes from The House of Elliot earlier.Have you seen that one? Lots of lovely clothes in it and rather interesting and entertaining story. Fob (I learnt at university that meant 'free on board'. Jokes possible even there.) Thanks Caroline, I'm in ever great need of training my English and often take the easy way out, instead of consulting my dictionary.Would fob chain be useful for the piece of jewellery at issue?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (14:03)", "body": "Ann2: (Cheryl, did you hear. I've actually been in the same room as those boots and that shirt.) Ann dear, I am extremely jealous! But thank you so much for posting this info, it does me good to know that one of our number has been in close proximity to our beloved's apparel! I shall have to settle for living vicariously through you! *sigh*"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (15:07)", "body": "Yes Cheryl, I think some of my bliss may very likely spread to you;-) Exhibition report 3. As for the rest, we would have done a much better job. It was called \"The World of Jane Austen\" and did that echo hollow? They had just photocopied some family pictures,views, some b&w illustrations (by one Thompson not Brock),some letters and added rather ignorant comments underneath each picture. The letters were some fun to try to read and they were, as you know filled with closely written lines on every available space.And you could learn how they were folded and sealed ; no envelopes. One large patchwork quilt , said to be a privately owned copy of one Jane, Cassandra and Mrs Austen once made.Patches artfully arranged from patterned and plaincoloured fabrics.Has anybody seen the original? Bernie? Is Kali going to visit Chawton? If indeed it is kept there. But this Swedish lady must have got the idea somwhere. They had a few novels for sale and the cd from Northam Emma. That music was played and made the atmosphere among the costumes very agreeable. That's all folks. Excuse the alarming length of this report."}, {"response": 11, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (20:15)", "body": "Ann2 -- thank you so much for your informative report. Like Cheryl, I shall enjoy it vicariously through you. So Colonel Brandon's outfit was his uniform, huh? I did think Alan Rickman looked very good in it. (He looked good at the Golden Globe awards last night, too -- I really enjoy watching some of these actors who play JA's heroes.)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "MaryC", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (20:17)", "body": "On the old Board one of the ROFLOL moments for me was when someone began to inquire about Darcy's lucky green coat and how many times he wore it in the mini series. Ann responded by saying she was far too busy keeping track of Lizzie's wardrobe to take on the task of inventorying when Darcy wore what and how many times. I have paraphrased her response but it was a classic given the detail in her list and the posts about the green coat. Thanks for reprising Ann's list, it IS most remarkable!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (20:22)", "body": "Ann2, thanks so much for your report. I loved your comment about the hat and no head to put it on! Poor Darcy - or was the garotting in Nostromo more severe than we thought???;-) I envy you seeing the show. I'll just have to visit Lyme Park when I go back to England next summer and see what they have to offer there. And thanks for reprising Ann's list of Lizzie's wardrobe."}, {"response": 14, "author": "eljo", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (03:10)", "body": "Ann2, thanks a lot for the information about the exhibition. Do you know if they are taking it to G\ufffdteborg after Malm\ufffd as they did with The House of Elliot exhibition. Or do I have to come up with a good reason to tresspass on my friends in Stockholm?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (13:41)", "body": "Are you in Gothenburg Elisabeth? And are you, by any chance Swedish? No, I do not know what happens after Malm\ufffd. But I'll find you the telephon number to the Hallwylska palatset where the exhibit takes place.08/666 44 99 Telefax 08/666 44 95. I take it you saw the Elliot clothes. I missed them. Do you visit this conference often, I can't remember seeing your name. But then if you do not watch closely your name migth well be English."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (13:54)", "body": "Kathleen, I could not agree more on your views on Austen heros, those dear men. And I specially recall C Brandon imploring Elinor. \"I must do something. Give me something useful to do!\" Oh, Inko that you can be the 'mother' of our dear little William and at the same time make such dreadful jokes!Garotting more severe...!LOL And that casual...will just have to visit Lyme Park...You are to be greatly envied by me for one."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (03:03)", "body": "Ann2...did they have Emma's pink dress form the archery scene? ;)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "eljo", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (04:42)", "body": "Ann2, thanks a lot for the phone numbers....I'm certinly going to find out if they are bringing the exhibition to G\ufffdteborg. And yes I do live in G\ufffdteborg and I don't visit this conference often enough.....but I'll try to change that. I'm sorry to say that I haven't yet seen The House of Elliot clothes but I will try to squeeze in a visit to the exhibition this weekend. It would be great to see these clothes to because I really enjoyed The House of Elliot."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Fri, Feb  7, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "Has there been any information on whether the costumes are going to tour? Perhaps to the Southeast USA, or even the Northeast USA? It sounds wonderful. To be near Mr. Darcy..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "law", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (21:27)", "body": "MaryC wrote: \"On the old Board one of the ROFLOL moments for me was when someone began to inquire about Darcy's lucky green coat and how many times he wore it in the mini series.\" I missed that discussion but I have to tell you-- I finally persuaded my boyfriend to watch P&P with me. In the scene where Darcy is getting dressed and says to his valet, \"No, the green one,\" I sighed a little and remarked how very sexy Regency dress was-- acknowledging of course that while my boyfriend would never wear a green coat, he would look exceptionally well in blue or black. Anyway, later, when he was trying to figure out what exactly was going to happen next, at one point he said, \"So he *was* going to propose to her when he got dressed all snazzy in his green coat!\" So what do you all think? Is he right? Was Darcy planning to propose again when he went to see Elizabeth at Lambton and found her distraught over Jane's letters about Lydia? Is that why he put on his lucky green coat?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (23:11)", "body": "My vote has always been for no . First, he would have gone to Lambton on the assumption that the Gardiners would be there as well. He had no way of knowing he would find Lizzy alone. Second, he was not confident enough of himself or of her feelings to propose again. He had only seen here three times, always in company, and hadn't seen enough of her to know that her feelings might have changed. In fact, according to Lizzy her feelings, while in turmoil, were not yet changed sufficiently for him to ha e received the answer he wanted. My guess is he would have just payed a normal call or possibly joined them for part of thier outing."}, {"response": 22, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (07:31)", "body": "Ann: My guess is he would have just payed a normal call or possibly joined them for part of their outing. Like a moth to flame -- Darcy just could not stay away from Elizabeth once he knew she was nearby. He wanted to continue to show her that he had changed her behavior, and he wanted to see if her feelings had changed and if so how much. I do not think he was intending to propose, but that he just wanted to be near her."}, {"response": 23, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (08:35)", "body": "I'm with you, he didn't have the intention to do anything particular so soon, just wanted to BE with Her."}, {"response": 24, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (10:16)", "body": "Bingley's and Wickham's blue coats are mentioned in the novel -- see http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/pptopics.html#bluecoat"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (12:16)", "body": "Like a moth to flame -- Darcy just could not stay away from Elizabeth once he knew she was nearby. ...he just wanted to be near her. Well put, Kathleen. ITA. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 147, "subject": "Did Darcy Ever Intend To Marry Sick Cousin Anne?", "response_count": 52, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (15:20)", "body": "OK, I'll go first! I personally do not think that Darcy would have married Anne. Perhaps he never bothered to contradict his aunt (perish the thought of a mere mortal trying to contradict the She-Beast), but he may have wanted to avoid a fight until he was already engaged to someone else. I have always assumed that Darcy and his cousin tried to humor her Ladyship as much as possible, just nodding and mumbling uh huh without actually trying to discuss anything of importance. Darcy could not -- would not -- marry w/o love, and there do not seem to be any symptoms of love for his sickly cousin. Besides, would she even be able to provide him with an heir? I vote no, not even if Elizabeth never accepts him."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (15:20)", "body": "Oh, I'm sure that Darcy never had any intention of marrying his cousin, Lizzy or no Lizzy. We know that he was a strong man who could not be bullied. Lady C just thought she was God."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (16:21)", "body": "I don't think he was interested in getting married to anyone until he met Elizabeth."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (16:22)", "body": "I agree Darcy would never have married Anne, whether he ever married Lizzie or not - or even if he'd never met Lizzie. See my Part 5 of Young Fitz: I've always thought it was mainly Lady C's idea and even Darcy's mother only sort of agreed to avoid a long argument! The \"dearest wish\" was all on Lady C's part - after all, who else would want sickly Ann who never says anything. BTW, did everybody else notice that Anne had no spoken lines in the adaptation. Were they being cheap, not wanting to pay a higher salary? Just kidding!!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (16:35)", "body": "Inko,I think she smiled once during the palor scene at Rosings. When L.C was saying how much Mr. Darcy and the Col.Fitzwilliam loved rosings. She cracked a smile without wiping her nose."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (16:47)", "body": "Response #5 Anne de Bourgh smiled once and that should be a \"R\" for Rosings."}, {"response": 7, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (18:48)", "body": "Yea, you notice that the \"She-Beast\" did not go staight to Darcy when she got wind of the rumor about Elizabeth. She went to Elizabeth first. If there was an \"understanding\" with Darcy, you think she could have gone to Darcy, not Elizabeth. So I wonder how Lady C. ever approached the matter with him, if she ever did. But Kathleen, I do think he would have married without love to someone with the right connections. At least before out dear Lizzy came upon the scene."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (19:54)", "body": "] I do think he would have married without love to someone with the right connections. I can see that, but she would also have had to be 'fit' to carry out the duties and meet the responsiblities that would the lady of Pemberly would have. Anne is so sickly one must wonder if she could safely bear the 'hear and a spare' needed, supervise the household and advise the tenants families. Furthermore, so far as we can tell she doesn't have the wit or social skills needed either."}, {"response": 9, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "Anna: You are right about her being too sickly to be a decent mistress over Pemberly. (To ill to even learn to play a damn piano?) But the intention of the match was to combine the two estates."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Lilian", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (20:34)", "body": "Definately not! Darcy would never have married his cousin. He would have had as much chance with Miss Bingley. I think Darcy was looking for a \"fresh\" female and thankfully... he found her."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Karen", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "I agree with all of you; Darcy would not have married Anne. Also since he was a man of integrity, I do not think he would have married unless he found someone like Lizzy. He had women running after him all of the time. Lizzy was the first woman he had to chase. If a woman like Lizzy had not shown up, Darcy would have married late and if he compromise on character, his wife would be similar to Ms. Bingley or Fanny Dashwood. Needless to say, Dary would become a pompous nightmare. Oh what a terrible th ught. Thank God for the happy ending with Lizzy."}, {"response": 12, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (22:49)", "body": "I think Inko had the whole arrangement neatly summarized - it was Lady C's arrangement solely - no one could have set her straight about that without being very, very rude - since she never listened to anyone and 'brooked no disappointment'. The point is moot whether Darcy tried to make his dis-inclination for his cousin clear to Lady C and Miss. It would have all fallen on deaf ears."}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (11:14)", "body": "NEVER! He would have been better off with Mr. Hurst!!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (12:05)", "body": "LOL, Amy!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (14:29)", "body": "oh my...;-)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (16:47)", "body": "Darcy was looking for someone with who was equally stationed in life...\"Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections? To congratulate myself on the hope of relations whose condition in life is so decidedly below my own?\" I think Darcy would not \"want\" to marry Anne and if someone else who had the same standing in society came along..he would have considered the marriage much like a contract...to carry on the family name, etc. If no one else came along...would he have considered Anne??? Maybe...and here's a thought..was Anne sickly because she was really sick..or was it because her mother was Lady Catherine?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (17:16)", "body": "LOL, Linda! But I kinda thought same, along the lines that if no one better connected came along... He may not have committed to an engagement any time soon, but it could have been in the back of his mind that he always had his cousin to fall back on - at least she's got the Big Bucks. She certainly wasn't going anywhere. And there is alot to be said for a bag over the head."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Donna", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (17:28)", "body": "What a twisted way to think.Besides,Anne didn't have to marry anyone. Everything was in her favor,too.They had choices."}, {"response": 19, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (18:02)", "body": "Donna: Seriously, the choices Anne would have had are the ones her mother made for her. Back then, was not a woman's worth measured by the marriage she made? With her mother's expectation of a match for her already made, she did not have to exert herself to find a husband. A single woman's life had it's limitations, even for a wealthy single woman. She may not have even cared whether or not she ever married, but I bet Lady Catherine did. And I bet once Darcy was out of reach, Lady C. would have atte pted to arrange another marriage for her. Lady Catherine cared a great deal about the regard \"of the world\"."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Donna", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "This just sounded like our friend Mikeys way of thinking to me.He said Lizzie was after Mr. Darcy's money and after she(Lizzie) saw Pemberely she changed her mind. Oh,I am sure if Lady Catherine demanded Anne to marry someone she would have. I don't think she had enough backbone to disagree,but she still had other ways around that.Someone suggested that Anne was pretending to be sick as a form of rebellion. I don't know if Lady Catherine could cut her off from her inheritance though, I am sure she would d ngle that over her head. I guess it would depend how it was \"legally written\" by her father.If that was the case she would agree to Lady Catherine demands."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (20:31)", "body": "Sharon said: He always had his cousin to fall back on LOL! I picture Anne completely squashed as he falls back on her!! Horrible picture, but the bag over the head is a very good idea, especially if he falls forward over her and has to see her!!!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (23:35)", "body": "I think it possible that Anne's illness was a reaction to Lady C. I don't know whether it was conscious or not--sort of a Saphie v. Edina thing from Ab Fab. With such a strong and domineering mother, Anne had little choice but to be weak and meek. Certainly if she had a backbone as a child, her mother would have amputated it long ago. I also think that Lady C. would never have allowed Anne to gain any accomplishments that she herself could not claim. If Anne ever expressed an interest in learning the pianoforte, or singing, or riding, or going away to school, I am certain Lady C. would not have allowed it and told her daughter that she is too weak for any such thing, that it was completely out of the question, and that she had never heard such a rediculous suggestion in all her life, what was she thinking! Whatever spirit Anne may have had, it could not have lasted long with Lady C. in the house."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (01:13)", "body": "Oh dear! I feel positively sorry for Anne now..."}, {"response": 24, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (02:30)", "body": "] was Anne sickly because she was really sick..or was it because her mother was Lady Catherine? And were her skills in conversation nonexistent because Lady Catherine never allowed anyone but herself to speak? When did the poor pitiful thing ever have an opportunity to practice them?"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Donna", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (08:14)", "body": "When she did try to converse she probably was told to she was wrong."}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "But look at Lizzie. Here's someone who manages to talk around Lady Catherine due to sheer chutzpah. Or would Anne have been so beaten down growing up that she never could have developed this facility?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "sld", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (12:39)", "body": "Amy W.: I don't know. Anne is one of the best puzzles we have in this book - we have so few clues. But probably the best place to start is at present, then work our way backwards. She is an adult, though age undetermined. She is thin and small, physically the opposite of her mother. She had weak features and probaly ugly ('Lady Catherine was a tall, large woman, with strong features, which might once have been handsome.' ...'There was neither in face nor form any likeness between the ladies.'). she appears sickly and cross. She has some arrogance or is conscientious about her status is she goes to the Collins' to visit and doesn't usually even go inside. Elizabeth thinks she is rude. She spoke little except in a low voice to Mrs Jenkinson, whose sole purpose in like was to tend to her. She didn't eat much, which triggered the solicitude of Mrs. J. It is her mother that uses her health to account for the lack of accomplishments. This does nothing toward encouraging her to do anything about it. It is almost like the She-Beast thinks, \"My kid's a looser and so be it\". When Lady Catherine looks at her child what does she see? Is she disappointed?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (12:54)", "body": "Lady C is so accomplished at one thing -- deluding herself -- she likely sees in Anne whatever she wishes to see."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (12:56)", "body": "I wonder very much at the comment that Lady C makes to Lizzy; ''Daughters are never of so much consequence to a father.'' It seems she is speaking of personal experience; was it her own experience as a daughter? Or perhaps her experience with her late husband, who may have been waiting for the male heir who never arrived. His treatment of Anne, and of Lady C because of only having a female child, is another missing piece of this puzzle. We assume that she was always this way, but certainly could have ecome the present day Lady C because of experiences within her marriage. I can vividly see her assuming an attitude of superiority to cover feelings of inferiority from her failure to produce a male heir."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (13:27)", "body": "It is almost like the She-Beast thinks, \"My kid's a looser and so be it\". When Lady Catherine looks at her child what does she see? Is she disappointed? Most definitely--here's a woman who's always had the \"best\" of everything, and her daughter isn't the \"best\" in any respect: not accomplished, nor witty, nor even attractive. Perhaps that's another reason why Lady C is so hellbent on Darcy for a nephew--he is intelligent, handsome--in short, the \"best of the best.\" Lady C would be able to live vicariously through Darcy and her grandchildren, and would probably try to forget all about Anne. Of course, Lady C's psychology is another topic, but I can see her reacting this way, and I bet Anne can see that as well, which would only compound any inferiority complex, sickliness, or crossness in her manner."}, {"response": 31, "author": "sld", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "Mari: '... could have become the present day Lady C because of experiences within her marriage.' True, true. Lizzy thinks that Lady Catherine \"might once have been handsome.\" Ugly does work its way from the inside out. Maybe like her apprearance, she deteriorated into the way she is."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (23:48)", "body": "Amy2 and Sharon - LOL. Sharon, I also loved your analysis of Lady C. The erosion of the person from the inside out is very true of people."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (12:14)", "body": "I believe that Darcy would have married eventually, in order to fulfill his responsibilities as the heir of Pemberly; but he was would not have married Anne because of the inevitably increased exposure to Lady C! If it got to the point where he felt he could no longer wait, I'm sure he would have acted on his logic, and chosen someone who had either fewer outside influences, so that her main attention would be given to Pemberly (and Georgiana), or had connections that would vastly enchance the social sta ding of the presumed children; to do otherwise would have been unthinkable to the Darcy who had never met Lizzy."}, {"response": 34, "author": "sld", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (15:30)", "body": "Hey, I don't know that Darcy's wish to avoid Lady Catherine would have had anything to do with not wanting to marry Anne. Darcy went to visit his aunt every year and stayed several weeks. I don't get to visit my best friends for that long. The time that I can recall that he may have wished her elsewhere was when she was kinda rude about Lizzy using Mrs. Jenkinsons piano, and he was 'embarassed', or somthing. He may not have been Chatty with Cathy, but he may very well have had respect for her, and con urred with many of her views. Even after he was married, he was the one that sought a reconciliation with her."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (15:39)", "body": "But Sharon--it was \"by Elizabeth's persuasion he was prevailed on to overlook the offense and seek a reconciliation\" so I doubt he would have done so on his own!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Even after he was married, he was the one that sought a reconciliation with her. Lizzy persuaded Darcy to heal the breach with Lady Catherine."}, {"response": 37, "author": "sld", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (15:51)", "body": "Sure, Elizabeth persuaded him. But why would SHE care? ..unless she saw that her husband felt bad about the breach."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (15:58)", "body": "She probably wanted to show Lady C. that the shades of Pemberley were not polluted after all!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (16:32)", "body": "Mari..Sharon...I think that by the time Darcy married Anne...Lady Catherine would have been in old age. I believe that Annes illness was the result of Lady Catherine's control of her entire life. Look how quickly she took over Charlottes? Imagine having such a controlling mother for all those years...the only thing Anne could control was her own body..her health...it was an escape to get out of all Lady Catherine expected of her..and yes, I think Lady Catherine welcomed the escape of her illness becaus she was such a disappointment to her. Darcy would have only married her as a last resort, but remember to have a son to carry on not only the family tradition but the family name was very important to them. Because Darcy was such a \"staunch\" personality, it would be hard for him to accept just any woman...until a certain lady got under his skin...and he couldn't fight it any longer. I don't think he ever would have considered Ms. Bingley...but since Anne was part of a family agreement...he may have con idered it...if he had too."}, {"response": 40, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (23:20)", "body": "To quote Charlotte Lucas \"I am not a romantic\" in the matter of Darcy's marrying had he not met Lizzy. I do believe he would have married someone of his own rank who could have provided and heir and a spare - and then (as was the custom of men of his period and station) would have found a very lively, elegant mistress \"in town\". Intregrity or not."}, {"response": 41, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (23:30)", "body": "Claudia, and heir & a spare. I love it!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (23:55)", "body": "Ladies, please do not be so anxious to marry Darcy off to some horse-faced deb merely because she has a position in society. The Darcy of my dreams (and I have them frequently) is a man of passion and integrity who would never be able to bed a woman for the sole reason of producing an heir. He would have to be able to respect, esteem, and desire his wife. Otherwise, why is he still available at the age of 27? He clearly had high standards or he would have married duck-face and done the dreadful deed n cessary to produce an heir. I prefer to think that he would have waited (immortal and ever-youthful) until I was in my prime (around 1976). =)"}, {"response": 43, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (00:55)", "body": "Bravo Margaret"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Saman", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (17:05)", "body": "I agree with you Margaret - the creative writers at FoF have a different idea - they see Darcy marrying Caroline Bingley (shades of Four Weddings...) to satisfy the requirement of producing an heir to Pemberley."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (18:43)", "body": "Marrying Caroline Bingley?(English Accent) God forbid! How would she satisfy the requirements better then Elizabeth???"}, {"response": 46, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (18:55)", "body": "NO,no,no. Darcy would never have married Caroline. He was 'indifferent' to her, and furthur, he did not view the Bingley's as high as himself socially. He liked her brother and they were not so far beneith him that they were unacceptable acquaintances. But if Darcy were to look for a bride for convenience sake, he would have made an equal match, not ally his ancient, noble family with the House of Bingley."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (21:23)", "body": "But, Sharon, Darcy wanted his sister to marry Bingley. Surely he wouldn't have fobbed her off on someone he regarded as inferior. But I agree that he would never have married Caroline. She drove him crazy even as a sometime companion. He'd never have shackled himself permanently!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (21:42)", "body": "Maybe our FoF cousins like having Darcy in an uncomfortable unhappy marriage. The situation makes adultery stories a lot more palatable."}, {"response": 49, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (23:00)", "body": "I believe FoF had Darcy, nursing a broken heart and resigned to disappointment, ready to propose to Miss Bingley when Elizabeth showed up at Pemberly. Once he sees E again, hopes of winning her revives and the proposal never takes place. But I do not believe that Darcy could possibly have made such a decision so soon after his first proposal to E. Maybe five years later but not three months later."}, {"response": 50, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (23:08)", "body": "'But, Sharon, Darcy wanted his sister to marry Bingley.' And she is a younger female. Though Bingley's social status may not be as elevated, he did have a fortune in excess of hers."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Donna", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (08:01)", "body": "I really don't think Mr. Darcy wanted his sister to marry Bingley. It was Miss Bingley hoping that her brother would marry Georgiana."}, {"response": 52, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (08:12)", "body": "'FoF had Darcy, nursing a broken heart and resigned to disappointment, ready to propose to Miss Bingley' Like that would happen. Forget FOF! ;-) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 15, "subject": "P&P1", "response_count": 10, "posts": [{"response": 15, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (21:57)", "body": "Anna, Terry says he handles a site that gets 2 million hits a --- don't remember now, a day? a week? Either way, that is a lot. We rarely got a thousand a day, depending on the way you count. Don't be shy. We get kicked off, we get kicked off. But I don't think we will. I am up for starting P&P1. Who else?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (22:31)", "body": "Could we wait a bit? I would like to discuss Maurice w/ Laura first. And, we need to get an extra P&P2 fix in just to recover from our withdrawal from the BB this week!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (22:39)", "body": "I vote that we wait a bit, partly from selfish reasons. I haven't been able to get hold of a copy of P&P1 to view - not at the library and at no video store. I'll have to look around a bit more. I did see it when it was on the first time, but it's been too long ago and I don't remember it very well."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (23:38)", "body": "I'm happy to wait - but would anyone like to suggest a date? I'd suggest in one or two weeks time. Amy, I wasn't here when you started the P&P2 R&V so I dont' know how it's done - do we nominate a start to watch date and then a start to discuss date a week later, or just a start to discuss date? Could we use your original schedule for P&P1 with a modified start date? Anna"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (00:08)", "body": "I am entirely flexible. I wonder if we want to spend 6 weeks on P&P1, though. I mean, it has its points but..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (00:56)", "body": "Why don't we give Maurice another week to get hashed out and then start P&P1 on Dec. 1st? That will give some of us more time to get the video (just ordered mine today!) I don't think we want to spend six weeks on it, but who knows? It's just two videos, right? Let's just start in on it and let it be talked and talked and talked about until it dies a natural death (like everything else around here!) Hello, my name is Cheryl and I'm a compulsive organizer. (Hi Cheryl!)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (01:00)", "body": "She's a good one, too. The organizer of our volunteer squad. Do it anytime, Cheryl. Please."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:34)", "body": "Sounds good to me Cheryl. It is just 2 videos, but the complete version runs for about 4 1/2 hours - from memory the first proposal comes at the end of the first video, as in P&P2 (or near it). I for one will be doing a combined P&P, P&P1 and P&P2 compare, so it may get fairly complicated. I suspect the discussion will slacken off after 2 1/2 weeks as Christmas arrives - P&P1 is enjoyable, but not as enthralling as P&P2. Anna"}, {"response": 15, "author": "IF", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (11:37)", "body": "I have never seen P&P1.Would it be worth buying?If I could get it?I don't think I can rent it from my video store or even get it in Ireland.Can anyone help?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (17:52)", "body": "I wouldn't buy P&P1, but then I can rent it. I've seen it twice before, and expect to enjoy watching it again, but not enough to buy it. However I think a number of other members of this group have bought it. It depends on cost, disposable income and degree of obsession I suppose. Anna austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 150, "subject": "JA in the nineties", "response_count": 18, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (15:04)", "body": "I've had an offhand silly opinoin about it: she'd be doing web pages of parodies on Fordyce's Sermons. But I'd like to think about it more seriously. Thanks for the idea, Caroline."}, {"response": 2, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (17:44)", "body": "\"she'd be doing web pages of parodies on Fordyce's Sermons. \" ROTFLOL!!!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (18:15)", "body": "And Fordyce's would be....? I think she would be as progressive as .... I don't know. I think if I wrote a book I would not want bodice ripping. I would write like a 1950's movie: fade to black during the kiss. Which would mean no one would want to buy my books. Which would mean I would be stuck reading about old, morally prudent writers on the internet. Hmmmm. Wouldn't it be grand to be such a great writer that you could imply things so beautifully that graphic descriptions would be banal? Like Lydia and Wickham: you know what's going on there but we don't have to hear all the slimy details. I know I am being naive, but isn't that required in a romantic? Amy, oh wise one, I wait your appraisal."}, {"response": 4, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (18:25)", "body": "In the 90's, Austen would have opportunities she never had, more avenues to express her self and her art. She would not have to even be a novelist. Anna Quindlan's old job is still open, isn't it?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (20:45)", "body": "She would not have to even be a novelist You don't think she would have had stories buzzing around her head all the time ?Somehow, with talent like hers, I think a few books would have been produced. (Anna Quindlan? don't know her- please tell!) she'd be doing web pages of parodies on Fordyce's Sermons. And writng \"The Vicar of Dibley,\" no doubt! I think she would be a feminist, for sure."}, {"response": 6, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "The feminin side to Michael Crichton or Tom Clancy's blockbusters, instead of war/thriller/criminal plot a more femininist (and feminin) point of view on human relationship thriller type of novels, and definitely movies adaptations. Something of quality, BBC's like, definitely not movie of the week."}, {"response": 7, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (22:24)", "body": "JA with a word processor - how many great stories would we have had!!!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (22:42)", "body": "You know, it could be that she was not driven to write, but just to do something, and writing was one of her few options."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (22:46)", "body": "Perhaps a sociologist, a folklorist, or a columnist (like a cross b/t Herb Caen and Anna Quindlen...very common-sense and subtle, upbeat, appreciative of life, and very hard on the longfaced and serious of the world)."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (22:48)", "body": "Very true, Amy...but she was very good at it. She would have a plethora of verbal-type options open to her today because of that fact."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (22:51)", "body": "] verbal-type options __ Court TV commentator?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (22:51)", "body": "Sorry JA. Not funny. Kali are you going over to meet Amy2?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (22:54)", "body": "I'm on my way...I've been trying to clean up here...My modem is broken, and I'm at the computer lab..."}, {"response": 14, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Jan 22, 1997 (22:55)", "body": "Caroline: I meant to say she would not have even HAD to be a novelist. What Austen committed to paper is not so much stories and plots as it is character study and commentary on human nature. Anna Quindlan left the New York Times about a year ago, where she wrote a column a couple of times a week about her observations of the world. She also has a couple of books out, one being a fantastic collection of her essays. My guess that a woman in Jane's day was not taken as seriously as a writer like Quindla is today. What little I have read about how Austen's writings were viewed then, seemed to be that her books were basicly considered \"fluff' pieces. The reality is, she is pretty damn deep."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (23:30)", "body": "Sharon, unfortunately, there are still many today that think JA is fluff."}, {"response": 16, "author": "sld", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (00:32)", "body": "Karen: That is true, and perhaps we project more into the work than she ever indended. But is would not have lasted 184 years without something inherent in it that we still respond to."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (07:41)", "body": "Do you think she could have written the screenplay for \"Clueless\"?I havn't seen it, so I don't know."}, {"response": 18, "author": "alix", "date": "Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (18:27)", "body": "Maybe, Caroline, but I don't know if she would have had in so many double-enterdes(sorry. The last spelling bee I was in was in 3rd grade). Jane as a screenwriter does sound intersting, though. Any ideas out there? austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 159, "subject": "early Darcy and Elizabeth A&E/BBC publicity shot", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (15:57)", "body": "Laura, you shouldn't put the URL of an HTML page in [IMG SRC=\"...\"] Here's the page: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/3891/austened.htm And here's the picture: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/3891/peng_1.jpg"}, {"response": 2, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (16:01)", "body": "I fixed it created another topic because this one was gone. but it is a great shot. thanks anyway. Always learning with this dang thing."}, {"response": 3, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (10:29)", "body": "dang thing you meaning Dangling thing? For you sweet Cheryl ;)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "...uh...thank you Johanne...I think...;-)"}, {"response": 5, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (17:50)", "body": "Moved from Topic 160: Item 160 entered Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (15:58) by Laura McCarthy (LauraMM) Second Try Early Publicity shot of Darcy and Elizabeth 3 responses total. Topic 160 of 164: 'Second Try Early Publicity shot of Darcy and Elizabeth' Response 1 of 3: Kali Pappas (Kali) Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (21:48) 1 lines Very nice. Topic 160 of 164: 'Second Try Early Publicity shot of Darcy and Elizabeth' Response 2 of 3: Johanne (JohanneD) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (10:32) 3 lines Her first wig perhaps ! She does look rather matronlike, much prefer the dangling curls halo-ing her fine eyes ;) Topic 160 of 164: 'Second Try Early Publicity shot of Darcy and Elizabeth' Response 3 of 3: Joan, too (jwinsor) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (22:33) 1 lines Actually, neither looks very much \"in character\" yet, either. They look kind of like people wearing costumes rather than people who lived in that clothing."}, {"response": 6, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (18:06)", "body": "Moved from topic 164 Item 164 entered Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (13:53) by Laura McCarthy (LauraMM) Drool over this one if you dare No matter what anyone thinks this one is the best. This one is even better 14 responses total. Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 1 of 14: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (14:02) 1 lines Yes, Laura, the second one is better, but I love the caption on the first one: \"Ideal Breeding material\" indeed! ;-) And what a wicked glance! Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 2 of 14: Margaret Howard (Meggin) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (14:17) 1 lines Thank you very much, Laura. I needed new wallpaper! :) Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 3 of 14: Mari Topitzes (Mari) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (15:23) 3 lines Methinks Mr. Firth was camping things up a bit in that first photo. My new parlor game is for us to identify what stage direction he was just given. My suggestion for photo 1 is; 'act as though you are trying to identify the foundation garment Ms. Ehle is wearing' ;) Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 4 of 14: Laura McCarthy (LauraMM) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (15:33) 12 lines I have more photos. He look worse for the wear here Looking quite different in all of the pictures Okay I have done my part in giving you wonderful pictures of Mr Firth. Please don't beat me up because of my love for Rupert Graves. I think if you all saw a movie with him in it, you would totally understand my obsession. He is REALLY cute. Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 5 of 14: Dina (Dina) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (15:42) 1 lines \"Freddy, you think you are being truthful, but all it is is abominable conceit!\" Or is it when he is \"actually in e-flat\". I know it's when he wants to \"go have a bathe\". Yes he is too cute. Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 6 of 14: Inko (Inko) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (18:01) 3 lines Thanks Laura for posting these pictures. I, too, like the second one but when I try it for wallpaper it spreads wide and looks completely distorted. How do I keep it in proportion?? I've also decided that CF definitely needs longer hair - the haircut in TEP makes him look awful in comparison to all the other shots. I really like the yellow portrait; just wish it weren't so color=\"ffffOO\">yellow ! Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 7 of 14: Ann (Ann) Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (22:12) 1 lines In the book Making of P&P, they mention the hair nets that the women and the men had to wear to keep their hair in place off camera. Now, Colin's hair may not look quaffed, but I'm sure it took a while to get the right level of messiness, and that the hairdressers would not want him to mess it up while he was waiting for a shot. So what I want to know is: did anyone on the set snap a pic of Colin in one of those technicolor nets? Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 8 of 14: Susan Christie (Susan) Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (00:01) 1 lines I'M DROOLING, I'M DROOLING! But where is that picture of Rupert Graves, Laura? Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 9 of 14: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (00:10) 1 lines I really like the soccer photo...not sure why, maybe it's the messy hair...the 5 o'clock shadow...(shivers) ;-) Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 10 of 14: Laura McCarthy (LauraMM) Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (08:42) 4 lines Okay susan here is the old picture of Rupert Graves, I'm still trying to hunt down new photos but with no luck I like this one, but I wish it were in color. Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 12 of 14: Johanne (JohanneD) Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (09:29) 1 lines response awaiting in http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/read/drool/3/new Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 13 of 14: Amy Wolf (amy2) Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (11:26) 1 lines Thanks Laura, for all these great pix! What's your secret source? Topic 164 of 164: 'Drool over this one if you dare' Response 14 of 14: Karen Bowdre (Karen) Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (13:14) 1 lines Oh, Laura!! Thank you, thank you, thank you. Unfortunately, the Rupert Graves photos didn't download on my screen. But the Firth pictures are excellent. Being the child of two IBM's, I have seen that acronym used many ways but the use in the first pic is truly exquisite!!!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "I am truly glad they changed JE's hair as they went along! She does not look at all Lizzie-like in the above! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 16, "subject": "Darcy's Appearance", "response_count": 6, "posts": [{"response": 16, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (22:29)", "body": "I agree. It also reflects the passing time. The story takes place over a year or so, while the filming was done over 5 months. I know adults don't age a lot in a year, but there are often changes w/ the seasons. Darcy also looked different in the different outfits (but good in all or none of them)."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (23:41)", "body": "]Darcy also looked different in the different outfits (but good in all or none of them). However some were daggier than others! Anna guess who spent the down time reading the archives!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (00:10)", "body": "Anna, you could not have read them all. You must be positively bleary eyed. Hmm. That made me think, I wonder if we can archive this? I better ask."}, {"response": 16, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:16)", "body": "\"Select all\" does get everything in a topic so that it can be copied and pasted - though I suppose HTML would be lost that way."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:40)", "body": "] Anna, you could not have read them all. You must be positively bleary eyed. Just the threads pertaining directly to P&P2 which made things shorter - I've got about 500 to go, having joined at about message 4,500. ] \"Select all\" does get everything in a topic so that it can be copied and pasted - though I suppose HTML would be lost that way. I just highlighted the bit I was replying to and copied and pasted that. 'Select All' could get a little unwieldy with a long topic - you get the whole thing. Anna"}, {"response": 16, "author": "buddy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (13:41)", "body": "I am so excited to have found this group! I have been watching this production over and over for the last three months and agree totally that Darcy's appearance does seem to change with the varying camera angles. But I think we get a \"fuller\" picture that way than just the most photogenic side (front or back)! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 162, "subject": "More Darcy's Story", "response_count": 119, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (08:20)", "body": "Recent messages about Darcy's Story: __ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 164 of 198: Karen Bowdre (Karen) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (00:09) * 1 lines If any of you discuss 'Darcy's Story' at Pemberley, let me know when. One suggestion - not this weekend, since I won't have access to chat. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 165 of 198: Sharon (sld) * Sun, Feb 9, 1997 (17:09) * 4 lines [ not this weekend, since I won't have access to chat ] When will you have access? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 166 of 198: Anne (Anne3) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:14) * 8 lines The nice folks at Copperfield Books read my sad tale of getting a defective copy of Darcy's Story, and sent me a replacement, with their compliments! Now that is what I call handsome, gentleman/womanlike behavior! They sent it out airmail on Monday, Feb. 3rd, and I received it later that week, even though their order form says to allow 28 days for delivery. Their address is: Copperfield Books Room 38 Hillbrook House Lyncombe Vale Road Bath BA2 4LS England Copies are 9 pounds including postage. An international money order can be obtained (in the U.S. at least) at post offices, and is equivilent to about $14, same price as at JA Books. Five copies are 36 pounds, a 20% saving. Now how do I get any work done today with this sitting on my desk? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 167 of 198: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:33) * 1 lines It IS extremely addictive! I couldn't help re-reading within a few days either. Just really liked Aylmer's approach and choices. Any word as to when we can do the \"advance crit\"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 168 of 198: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:37) * 2 lines Who has it on order now and wants us to wait. Tell when you expect it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 169 of 198: Johanne (JohanneD) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (14:48) * 1 lines I do, expecting it end of Feb, early March from JABooks, maybe sooner ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 170 of 198: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (16:20) * 2 lines I ordered by fax on friday to the internet book store. I got confirmation of the order this morning by email. So I am now playing the waiting game. I also ordered my own copy of \"Making of....\" after renewing the library's copy for 3 months. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 171 of 198: Ann (Ann) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (17:51) * 1 lines Does anyone know how many copies JABooks still has in stock. (I know they have been ambivelent about telling people). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 172 of 198: Lisa (lisaC) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:35) * 1 lines It is very addicitve. I have just begun reading it for a third time to get ready for the discussion but it appears that I'll have enough time to read it a forth time before we start analyzing it to death. I can't wait I hope your copies arrive soon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 173 of 198: Lisa (lisaC) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:37) * 1 lines Maybe I should start watch Sesame Street to learn how to spell FOURTH, but I fear my addiction has overtaken my senses and barely anything can tear me away from anything that's not P&P related. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 174 of 198: maud dixon (maud) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:39) * 6 lines I thought I'd get my copy this week from the bookstore in Boston (Waterstone?). I called today and they told me it's on back order b/c so many people have asked for it. I was angry b/c they'd told me 3 weeks ago they'd call if it needed to be back ordered. Trid JA Books and couldn't even get them on the phone. I'll try Copperfield tommorrow. Feeling somewhat desparate and definitely deprived atTthis point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 175 of 198: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (19:15) * 2 lines Oooh, looks like we need a director. Cheryl, Amy2 or anybody else, you want to coordinate, set the start date and organize borrowing arrangements? I'll make my copy will be available for loan by mail by the weekend. ------------------------------------------------"}, {"response": 2, "author": "June", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "Thanks, Cheryl. I believe I'll give Jane Austin Books a call first, though. Will let you know..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (21:58)", "body": "I emailed JA books last Saturday (15th) but no sign of my book yet. Panic!!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:23)", "body": "Kate, I finally got an E-mail message from JABooks late last night - they're all out, but expect to ship this week. Methinks I'll be way behind!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (11:26)", "body": "Amy2: Do divulge your master plan, Cheryl! OK. I think the time is now right to now reveal the MASTER PLAN Step 1. Read Darcy's Story. Step 2. Post your thoughts, reactions, insights, quips, rants and bon mots here at this topic beginning this Saturday, March 1. End of Master Plan. It's brillancy lies in it's simplicity, I believe..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (14:09)", "body": "Cheryl dear, the mere sound of your voice is great !"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (14:15)", "body": "Hybris got me there, I tried one of Ann's new movable darlings but it all came to nothing."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (16:36)", "body": "Ann2: Cheryl dear, the mere sound of your voice is great ! Ann darling, I miss you! :-( Email me, we must set a time to meet at Pemberley! :-)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (17:09)", "body": "Hooray!!! Book arrived today. Now a crash read before Saturday...."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (22:39)", "body": "Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! ;-)"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:16)", "body": "As an ignorant newcomer, I am tempted to rush out an order a copy of the book too. But having read Emma Tennant's \"An unequal Marriage - P&P continued\", which I found totally repulsive, can anyone advise if Darcy's Story would fare better to an ardent admirer of JA's P&P ???"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (00:29)", "body": "Serena: can anyone advise if Darcy's Story would fare better to an ardent admirer of JA's P&P ??? You may just want to wait til the discussion begins here on Saturday and see if the reviews are favorable or not. :-)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (00:37)", "body": "Cheryl is also organising a book swap. People who have a copy might be able to mail you a copy, then you can pass it on when you are done."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (07:17)", "body": "I just finished it last night. :-)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:28)", "body": "Finished!!!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Mari", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:37)", "body": "Finished my second (slower) reading yesterday, thanks to Tracey's loan. I'm afraid I won't be in the discussion until Monday (computer access only at work, don't you know), but this will not, as usual, prevent me from adding my tuppence worth."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:32)", "body": "I, too only have access at work, but I'm looking very forward to Monday!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:37)", "body": "One of these days, we have to figure out how to make this system -- or another -- send posts by email. There are ways."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! ;-)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (15:51)", "body": "Cheryl, not that you've revealed your MASTER PLAN, I have to admit it IS brilliant in its simplicity! And here I thought we'd all have to meet on a dark corner somewhere in Bath, wearinng muslin dresses and a carnation!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (16:53)", "body": "Now, let me see....we are supposed to discuss it first, then read it. Right?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:02)", "body": "What shall I do? Oh, what shall I do? Mine's in transit, I hope! Torn between wanting to know right away when you guys start your discussion, and wanting to read the book first before being influenced by your excellent opinions. What to do, oh, what to do! (I'm in a rabbit stew)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (08:03)", "body": "Amy, would it be a good idea to do a separate thread for the DS discussion on textual errors, inconsistencies, mistakes etc (so we could just make a great big list of them all) and leave the main thread for discussion about the substantive merits of the book? Oh, and BYW, it might be an idea (what do other people think?) to copy and send our comments to Copperfield Books? The author might be interested in what a group of Austen addicts (who aren't academic purists) think of her book? But then again, maybe we should wait and see what we say...."}, {"response": 24, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (08:04)", "body": "BTW, that should be BTW not BYW"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (08:07)", "body": "Good idea on the seperate topic, Kate. It would distract. Janet does come here once in a while."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (12:06)", "body": "Amy2, RE#20; and the lace, my dear :)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (13:17)", "body": "Amy do you mean janet the author Janet?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (14:36)", "body": "] Amy do you mean janet the author Janet? ___ Yes. According to the user list she hasn't stopped by for about a month, though."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:56)", "body": "Serena, I've read Emma Tennat's first P&P sequel; it is amazing to me that someone allowed her to write one let alone two but I'll not start raving yet. Having said all that, I think you will enjoy Darcy's Story. I can lend my copy to you, if you like."}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:23)", "body": "I think we should let Janet A. make the choice if she wants to read our comments or not. I speak feelingly as a fellow writer. . ."}, {"response": 31, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:25)", "body": "But should we let her know that we're doing it?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (08:57)", "body": "About Janet Aylmer's involvement,, I think that many people would feel uncomfortable about expressing their feelings if they knew that she would be following the discussion. People should feel free to weigh in with negative comments if they wish; there's not much point in discussing the book if all we say is \"liked it\" and \"thank you.\" Of course there's no way of preventing Janet from reading the posts and we wouldn't want to anyway, but while we're \"talking\" I think we should feel free to be as uninhi ited as usual. ;-)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (09:25)", "body": "I agree with Anne, being an author you should already be prepared for some criticism. It would be unnatural if she wasn't. If you liked the book great and if you didn't it should be why. Personally, sequels are never as good as the original. I have not read Darcy's story and really have no inclination to. I can imagine what continued after the last page in the book. By all means we have the Constitution of the United States that clearly states that we have the Freedom of Press and Freedom of Speech. So go to it gals and no holds barred."}, {"response": 34, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (10:34)", "body": "I don't mean to censor our discussion! I just think that before sending off a list of our comments to Janet, we should ask her whether she wants to receive them or not. I know that Harlan Ellison, the great sf short story writer, DOES NOT want to see comments on his work posted to his topic on GEnie, and that's certainly his perogative."}, {"response": 35, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (11:31)", "body": "I would very much prefer Janet Aylmer deciding for herself to read our comments. We may have the pleasure of expressing what we think but let's not force it upon her. She knows that we are reading it and am sure she'll make the connection as to some comments might follow as well. Freedom of speach is precious but let's keep it under good regulation shall we?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "Amy2: I just think that before sending off a list of our comments to Janet, we should ask her whether she wants to receive them or not. Amy, I don't believe there is any reason or need for us to send off our unsolicited comments to the author. She is registered for Spring, if she wishes to read our comments, she may without having them forced upon her. Sounds like it will be an interesting discussion tomorrow...looking forward to it! ;-)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Anne", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "Help!!! I have been frantically searching bookstores for Darcy's Story, but no luck. Most of them haven't even heard of it! Stupid people! I am probably asking a question that's been asked and answered a billion times before but is there any bookstore that I can just pick the book up at or is it all mail order from internet? I would appreciate any info. even though I won't make it in time for the discussion."}, {"response": 38, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "Amy/Cheryl Are we going to have a separate thread for typos, mistakes, inconsistencies with P&P and with itself etc? I didn't want to go ahead and do this without the approval of the supervisors.... ;-)"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (00:03)", "body": "Anne, try JABooks@aol.com. No, you won't find it generally available. You are in the US?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (14:27)", "body": "Anne, re your #37 post - I received one from Waterstone's in Boston yesterday. In the mean time I had ordered one from the Jane Austin Bookstore in Chicago. They do have it in stock and are mailing it to me Monday. If you want me to get it and forward it to you I will. If I don't hear from you or see a posting regarding this by Sunday nite I am calling Monday a.m. and cancelling it. You may e-mail me at Pandora620@AOL."}, {"response": 41, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (14:44)", "body": "I will just say that all in all I thought Darcy's Story was a nice read. It was not any better than what our Derbyshire Writers' Guild has created, although it was certainly more complete. I would have liked more conversation between Darcy and his friends/relations during incidences not mentioned in P&P. But I thought most of it seemed to remain in character."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (15:03)", "body": "Anne, re your #37 and my #40 post, I didn't give you full e-mail address: Pandora620@AOL.com."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (17:51)", "body": "Karen.. (of Resp. 29), you are sincerely, all generosity.. But I fear I live on the other side of the world from you.. I suspect I'll be purchasing a copy of Darcy's story from JABooks store. I didn't read 'Pemberbely' but accidentially found An unequal marriage while on holidays in Australia - thought it would be great airplane-reading, but it left a foul taste in the mouth. I had to read P&P again after that to satisfy myself. .I cannot even bring myself to shelve the book with my JA's collection - it seems unappropriate. Thank you again. ."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:01)", "body": "I agree with Kathleen. \"Darcy's Story\" is a very pleasant, quick read and does stay true to the original P&P, with only very few added scenes. On my second time through, though, I wasn't as enthralled as the first time; somehow our slew of writers at Pemberley Writers Guild, taken together, give a more complete picture of Darcy than does this book. I liked the touch of Darcy's second private talk with Mr. Bennet, after the latter knew of Darcy's part in the Lydia-Wickham affair. I especially like Darcy's lines: \"And without her beside me, there can be no happiness for me in the future. So let there be no more talk of repayment, I beg of you. your consent to our marriage is more than enough compensation for me.\" I also liked the added trip to London before the wedding. The more I think about it, I like it very well, I like it very well indeed!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (19:47)", "body": "Generally, I liked it very much, as well. That trash peddled by Emma Tennant-this is not! In particular, I liked the way she began the book, highlighting Darcy's shyness and lonliness, and sincere desire to duplicate the happy marriage of his parents. I also liked the expanded role of Georgiana as Darcy's confidant. She sees through Caroline Bingley long before he does. I liked the way she described Darcy's thoughts on his way to London: \"What irony of fate was it that Wickham seemed to continue to have t e power to injure him in those matters most dear to his heart. Also, I enjoyed the scene at the Gardiners when the eldest daughter asks Darcy if he likes Elizabeth: \"She is someone on whom I know I can always rely.\" One thing I did have a problem with, though, was her over-reliance on JA. Obviously, the allusions are welcome and necessary, but some pages read like direct quotes, and others could have been better incorporated. Darcy's reaction upon learning of Mr Collin's proposal(\"it does not bear thinking about\") also struck me as kind of awkward and contrived, even forced."}, {"response": 46, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (20:01)", "body": "] Darcy's reaction upon learning of Mr Collin's proposal(\"it does not bear thinking about\") also struck me as kind of awkward and contrived, even forced. Cassandra -- I agree. This seemed the most awkward of the additions to me. Plus, I have trouble believing Mr Bennet would have shared such news (Mrs Bennet, maybe, but not Mr Bennet). And Darcy's reaction was too much, since there was never any chance of Elizabeth marrying Mr Collins."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Opus1", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (20:33)", "body": "I haven't had a chance to read the book, having received it yesterday, but did want to tell anyone who is searching that I ordered the book from Waterstone's in Boston on Wednesday evening and it was on my doorstep in Virginia on Friday. The charge was $12 + $4.11 S&H. Their number is 617/859-7300. I hope that the book is as good as their delivery service."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Karen", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:06)", "body": "Overall I liked Darcy Story; I liked it more the second time around (the Guild has spoiled me exceedingly). I agree with Cassandra, Kathleen and Inko's comments regarding the positives of the book such as the better understanding of Darcy's shyness and Georgiana's expanded role. I also would have like to have seen more dialog with Darcy's and friends. The conversation with Lady C. was very amusing."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (12:11)", "body": "I'll put this info on here one more time. If I do not receive a request by tonight I'll call Monday a.m. and have book cancelled. I received a copy of Darcy's Story from Waterstones in Boston and just before I did I put in an order to Jane Austen books in Chicago. They have it and are mailing it to me this coming week. If anyone wants me to get it and forward it to them e-mail me at Pandora620@AOL.com or failing to be able to e-mail me, put a post on today. I am unable to to e-mail a lot of places off AOL, so put name and address. I did enjoy it and, no - it was not another Tennant badie. Ann, I think you were the one who wanted it badly."}, {"response": 50, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (13:16)", "body": "Again, what I liked the best was the begining. I like the way she described Darcy's transformation from this proud, completely in control person to this ardent, romantic would-be suitor, overwhelmed by his passion for Miss Elizabeth Bennet. Notably: \"Before he knew what he had done, Darcy had written a swift note to his cousin Fitzwilliam.\" \"Despite himself, and contrary to any intention of which he was consciously aware, after another half hour he found himself ringing the bell at the parsonage......but nything was better than not being in her presence.\" I loved thoses passages, cetainly in keeping with my impressions of Mr Darcy! I also noticed how her many descriptions of Darcy's long, lingering looks had CF written all over them! What I didn't enjoy as much were the later passages, after the second proposal. Without JA to rely on, Ms Aylmer's imagination seemed to have been stifled. I didn't like the Collins addition and the others seemed abrupt, unimaginative, and awkward. We expect more from Darcy and Elizabeth. I particularly thought the scene in Lady Catherine's room, when Darcy tells Lizzy the room is hers, was disapointing. It was over before it began."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Cass, I agree with you about some of the later scenes, but I still do like the second talk with Mr. Bennet, re: repayment for Lydia/Wickham expense. I like the idea of them going to London, but agree with you (and Lizzie) that her father (and Aylmer) should not have mentioned Collins' proposal - and I don't think Mr. Bennet would have mentioned it. The last two chapters are very abrupt, I agree. My whole trouble is that I have now read Darcy's Story twice, and our own fan fiction countless times so that I'm completely muddled as to who wrote what!!!;-)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:42)", "body": "I too liked the book on the whole. I liked Aylmer's faithfulness to Austen and to the period. But I have to agree that much of what's posted at our Derbyshire's Writer's Guild is superior, because it seems to me that those stories give more of an insight into Darcy's inner turmoil and feelings. Since DARCY'S STORY is written from _his_ P.O.V., I thought he shouldn't have remained as much of an enigma as he did in P&P. But I really liked the choice of making Georgiana Darcy's confidante -- this seems he e choice. I also enjoyed the scene where Darcy gets to experience Lady C's \"abuse\" of Elizabeth & account of their \"chat\" at Longbourne firsthand. I agree that I would have liked to see more original material, and less Austen. We are probably a more jaded group than the average readership, because we are so incredibly familiar with the text, and having to re-read it within the context of a new book gets a bit tedious."}, {"response": 53, "author": "maud", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (17:08)", "body": "I now find myself with 2 copies of Darcy's Story. Anyone who nees one can e-mail me at arab@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us. Let me know, Maud"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (09:00)", "body": "I, too, enjoyed the book. Her characterizations are usually right in line with my impressions. I think that we have had so many excellent stories here that contain so much imagination and passion, that we have come to expect a great deal of both. I noticed a bit of Davies' influence. One example which takes place at the Lambton Inn, \"Without realising what he did, Darcy took the nearest chair and, leaning forward, took her hand in his.\" JA allows no touching on this occation. I was a little ambivalent about Georgiana becoming his confidante, at first. But on subsequent readings, it seemed more natural. One thing that I noticed, Aylmer does not have Darcy considering Bingley as a match for Georgiana as JA does in Chapter 45. \"Not a syllable had ever reached her of Miss Darcy's meditated elopement. To no creature had it been revealed, where secrecy was possible, except to Elizabeth; and from Bingley's connections her brother was particularly anxious to conceal it from that very wish which Elizabeth had long ago attributed to him, of their becoming hereafter her own. He had certainly formed such a plan, and without meaning that it should affect his endeavour to separate him from Miss Bennet, it is probable that it might ad something to his lively concern for the welfare of his friend. All in all, I think that Janet Aylmer did a very good job and stayed very true to the book. I enjoyed Darcy's story very much. Linda"}, {"response": 55, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:59)", "body": "Can anyone give me the ISBN for this book? I haven't been able to find it either. I'd like to try to get it on interlibrary loan and read it before I buy it. Now that so many people have said it is good, I'd really like to read it. And now I know that perhaps I shouldn't buy the Tenant books!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "]And now I know that perhaps I shouldn't buy the Tenant books! Indeed you should NOT! I found Darcy's Story to be a quick, enjoyable read. I seem to agree with what has been said so far: Liked Georgiana being a confidant, the nice additional scenes (I would have like to some originality when Darcy finds Wickham/Lydia--not just quoting from JA), etc. Disliked the overreliance on JA, the Collins engagemnt bit (specially as I think Darcy probably heard the gossip re:Mr. C's intentions at the N'Field ball). On the whole though, I did like it alot."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:42)", "body": "Lynn, You may want to try Jane Austen Books, that's where I got mine. I sent them an e-mail request and they sent the book to my house with an invoice for $14.00. Jane Austen Books 860 N. Lake Shore Dr., Ste. 21-J Chicago, IL 60611-1751 (312) 266-0080 fax (312) 266-0081 JABooks@ail.com ISBN 0-9528210-2-8 Good luck. Linda"}, {"response": 58, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (02:31)", "body": "Maud, do you still have that 2nd copy? I could buy it off you instead of ordering from the store."}, {"response": 59, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (07:44)", "body": "#57 I proof-read the ISBN before posting, but not the email address; aol not ail, of course. JABooks@aol.com. Hope this didn't cause a problem for anyone."}, {"response": 60, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (10:51)", "body": "Here's a place that has it as well online: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ This is the Internet Book Store online -- they're based in England & delivered my copy inside of 2 weeks."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (12:58)", "body": "I have finished reading the copy that Tracey loaned me, and I can forward it to anyone who wishes to borrow it, rather than return it to Tracey first. Just send me an e-amil with your address (to mari.topitzes@mfa.com). I will CC Tracey with the info on where her book has gone so that she can keep tabs. Since she picked up the postage for sending it to me, I'll do the same for you, and so on down the line."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Dina", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (14:52)", "body": "I agree with most all that's been said, so at the risk of sounding redundant.... I would have liked JA to have been a little more daring and not relyed so much on the Austen dialogue. I actually liked the second half better than the first. I also think Mr. Bennett would have told something he shouldn't. Didn't he like to \"inflict pain before the pleasure\" . I can see him saying it for the reaction and to see how everyone else in the house would be upset by it. I am a big fan (as I have stated in other lines before) of eavesdropping on LC telling Darcy about her chat with Lizzie nd wanting to see him practically run all the way back the Meryton. Isn't someone in the Guild working on this? Hurry, Hurry!!!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (11:03)", "body": "Well, I have received my copy (from the Internet Bookstore) and I believe I share the opinions expressed here. I think some of my disappoint may stem from the anticipation of receiving and reading the book. After becoming throughly enraptured with P & P, I wanted this story to be equal. Oh well, it's Friday night, so I will have my weekly date with Lizzy and Mr. Darcy et al."}, {"response": 64, "author": "fitz", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (09:35)", "body": "Amy I at last have had a chance to drop in. Any comments on Darcy's Story are welcome - good or bad ! I would have liked to include a bit more detail in some of the areas mentioned, but the physical limit for the book was 240 pages because of the printing cost, including the pages at the beginning and end, so ... !!! Jane Austen Books in Chicago have apparently ordered more copies from Copperfield Books - now I know where some of them are going. Also the Book is No. 2 in the top 100 sold by the Interent Bookshop over the past month, and has been for some weeks. Everyone has their own view on Darcy's side of P&P - I am intereste dto know all of yours. Best Wishes to everyone from Janet Aylmer."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (12:56)", "body": "Thanks for stopping by, Janet. I would be interested to hear of the source for those book sales figures. If we are that much of a force, I'd like to be able to prove it. So you've read some of the fanfic by our number? What do you think?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "maud", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (15:32)", "body": "Serena, sorry--I only just read your post. I've been out of touch lately as I started a new job. Anyway, my remaining copy is out on loan. I think I'll keep it and just loan it out. So on that basis if you're still interested when I get it back you're welcome to borrow it."}, {"response": 67, "author": "sld", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (19:47)", "body": "[Also the Book is No. 2 in the top 100 sold by the Interent Bookshop over the past month, and has been for some weeks] Congradulations, Janet."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (03:22)", "body": "Isn't that flattering, Amy, having Janet Alymer checking into this conference? Maud, thanks for the reply, would love to read the book, Think I'll try again with JA Books (they never confirmed my order, 2 weeks ago) since I would like to have a copy in my collection."}, {"response": 69, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "Janet is a very brave woman, IMHO! Kudos for her stopping by. That really is something about the Internet Book Sales #, because that's a pretty darned big online supplier of books. I wonder to what extent WE'RE responsible. . ."}, {"response": 70, "author": "jajones", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (16:46)", "body": "A latecomer joining in. I think it would be interesting to know Colin Firth's take on the events in Darcy's life. As an skilled actor preparing for the role, he no doubt re-created -- in his mind or perhaps even on paper -- many of the experiences not found in the book. I wonder if his view would decidedly different from DARCY'S STORY?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:34)", "body": "Jacque, yes it would, and certain members of this esteemed group would give buckets of their own blood to get their hands on these reflections! (Cheryl, see you at the blood bank...)"}, {"response": 72, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:54)", "body": "There are a few hints of what CF thought about Darcy in \"The Making of P&P\" in his interview. He said \"For example, in that first assembly-room scene I have to go in and be hurt, angry, intimidated, annoyed, irritated, amused, horrified, appalled, and keep all these reactions within this very narrow framework of being inscrutable because nobody ever knows quite what Darcy's thinking.\" There's a lot more of that kind of thing in the book - rather insightful, actually."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (22:55)", "body": "I love the Colin Firth interview in The Making of P&P. I learned more from that interview about what motivated Darcy than I did in all of Darcy's Story I'm afraid..."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Serena", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (06:13)", "body": "Inko, sounds like you just 'sold' another book to me. Poor CF, Darcy is so complex in emotions, it must have been difficult to portray, and he did a wonderful job. But this is not drool.. so, off I go now with 3 books to get from the bookstore."}, {"response": 75, "author": "jajones", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:08)", "body": "My copy of The Making of P&P is on order so I haven't gotten to explore that yet. I am looking forward to it. Thanks for the direction."}, {"response": 76, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:51)", "body": "]I learned more from that interview about what motivated Darcy than I did in all of Darcy's Story I'm afraid... Me too. Darcy's Story to me just seemed to domesticate Darcy too much - somehow it seemed a little mundane?"}, {"response": 77, "author": "summit", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (20:55)", "body": "Darcy should remain the half-tamed stallion that he is that so lures our (still) girlish hearts, even in sequels, hmmm? [A friend of mine once commented on how \"like a wild thing\" young Timothy Dalton looked in his film version of Wuthering Heights , too...]"}, {"response": 78, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (08:37)", "body": "Kate, I agree with you. Some of the appeal of Darcy is the mystery surrounding him. He did become mundane, indeed."}, {"response": 79, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (11:19)", "body": "I'm glad I'm not the only person who had this reaction"}, {"response": 80, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (10:42)", "body": "Alas, count me among your number. Maybe Austen left the mystery around Darcy in in P&P for a reason. . ."}, {"response": 81, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (12:30)", "body": "Amy2: Maybe Austen left the mystery around Darcy in in P&P for a reason. . . Correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't you the one, Amy, who said we all had to read this book...? ;-)"}, {"response": 82, "author": "Donna", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:29)", "body": "Usually everyone here is on top of what is very good and just OK. Next time I will get more information. The fact is that it might be unavailable and then I would regret not buying it."}, {"response": 83, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:37)", "body": "You're correct, Cheryl...I was remembering the very post..."}, {"response": 84, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (17:09)", "body": "I have wound up with 2 copies of Darcy's Story. If anyone wants one e-mail me at Pandora620@AOL.com."}, {"response": 85, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (20:11)", "body": "Well, I'm _kind of_ guilty. Someone else started this topic, and in a wild rush of enthusiasm, I joined right in! I DO like the book -- don't get me wrong -- but I also think there's something exciting about Darcy remaining a cipher, as he does in P&P. I'm loving the fiction in the Derbyshire Writer's Guild, though, which fully flushes out Darcy. So call me contradictory, I guess!"}, {"response": 86, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (20:14)", "body": "Amy2 are you around now? Do you know much about video production? I have a question. Meet me in the drawing room?"}, {"response": 87, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (03:06)", "body": ""}, {"response": 88, "author": "summit", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (08:33)", "body": "...loving the fiction in the Derbyshire Writer's Guild, though, which fully flushes out Darcy... I like that \"flushes out Darcy\" - sounds like either a) a hunting dog flushinig a pheasant or duck out of hiding, or b) (god forbid) flushing him out of our system, so to speak, or c) maybe the fiction is \"fleshing out\" the cryptic portrayal of Darcy by Austen. ;-) Someone in Drool fan fiction referred to a boots-on version of Darcy and Lizzy's honeymoon (I've done it, ladies, but it's X, not R, so the net nannies would faint at Spring if posted!)"}, {"response": 89, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Wendy, dearest, you do have my email address? ;-)"}, {"response": 90, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:13)", "body": "Wendy, I hope you also have my email address!;-) And I can assure you, I don't have to be \"carded\" anymore!;-)"}, {"response": 91, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:26)", "body": "Me too please... ;-)"}, {"response": 92, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (19:19)", "body": "Please include me on your list as well Wendy."}, {"response": 93, "author": "jtlong", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:42)", "body": "Let me, a newcomer, respond to Darcy's Story. No one writes like JA, but this is better than most continuations in my estimation. It offers other angles that the mind can try on for size. I am a life member of JASNA and will be(hold your breaths) going with the JASNA group on tour to England in June for 11 days. We'll see some movie and Janes life sites, including a never before tour of Godmersham . So , you see even a devoted Janite can and did enjoy a detour into extended fiction! Jean"}, {"response": 94, "author": "jtlong", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:46)", "body": "Let me add that I sent to England for my copy and had it in just over a week, for 15 bucks, too. Plus a dear letter from the publishers. Why do the english have such a charming way with words, how did we Americans lose that?"}, {"response": 95, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (21:04)", "body": "Glad to see you here, Jean."}, {"response": 96, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (08:34)", "body": "Wendy, Please add me to the list of people you are emailing."}, {"response": 97, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:06)", "body": "Wendy, please add me as well. I am panting in anticipation!"}, {"response": 98, "author": "maud", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "Wendy, me too, please! The e-mail I sent you a while back is still the one to use. Let me know if you need it again."}, {"response": 99, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (19:55)", "body": "Wendy, \"flushing out a character\" is Hollywoodspeak for uh. . . flushing out a character. Making it fuller. So...is that \"X' version ever going to be made available to the more lavicious of us online? Cheryl, help me out here!"}, {"response": 100, "author": "summit", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (22:42)", "body": "Amy2: \"lavicious\"?? Quite a freudian slippism, doubtless, for \"la [the] vicious female writer who dares to be lascivious?\"\" ;-) I've a few ways & means I'm considering...a spiral booklet with the romantic and daggy versions available, so readers can decide which they prefer and discard the other (for you over 21[18?] readers)...a one-time web page which will self-destruct in 24 hours after reader's done...sequential emailing segments alla cliffhanger serials ... Shall let you know after decision made...but in all honesty, I cannot say it will be any match for/better than the superb fiction already here from all P&P addict-authors n residence!"}, {"response": 101, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (23:39)", "body": "]will self-destruct in 24 hours after reader's done...Ok \"Mission Impossible\" Wendy"}, {"response": 102, "author": "summit", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (19:09)", "body": "\"Attagirl\" Donna! LOL: I was thinking of a sort of Trekkie phenomenon, where you look out over the com (-puter window) into virtual space, trying to sneak a second read of the daggy version romance, when vooooom! it dissolves before your glazed gaze can quite finish that last..."}, {"response": 103, "author": "summit", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (19:14)", "body": "P.S. sort of a MACBETH parody: \"Is it a daggy that I see before me?\""}, {"response": 104, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "Wendy -- ROTFLOL! (I don't think I want to hear the next line. ;-))"}, {"response": 105, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (20:19)", "body": "\"X-rating turned toward my heart. Come, let me clutch thee!\" Wendy, give me a break. When I made that typo, I had just returned from a 13-hour day at Disneyland. More crowded than I've ever seen it in over 35 years. No joke."}, {"response": 106, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "I agree with those who like the mystery surrounding Darcy. I guess that's why I am of two minds about reading Darcy's story. Does anyone have a copy they'd be willing to let me borrow? I tried to get it on interlibrary loan, but the only two libraries in the country that owned it charged!! At any rate, it someone would let me borrow a copy, I'd be grateful!! E-mail me at lynn@xtdl.com. I must say, I have finally gotten around to reading the fan fiction and have really enjoyed it, and now shall have o check out the Derbyshire Writers' Guild. What talent there is here!!"}, {"response": 107, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (21:12)", "body": "Lynn, Fan fiction and the Derbyshire Writers Guild are basically the same thing (though if you are new here, there will be lots of stuff you haven't seen in the current Fan Fic topic)."}, {"response": 108, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (10:58)", "body": "Ann: How does it work? Are stories first posted to the Fan Fiction topic, then archived to the Writer's Guild?"}, {"response": 109, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (12:46)", "body": "\"Are stories first posted to the Fan Fiction topic, then archived to the Writer's Guild?\" Exactly so."}, {"response": 110, "author": "EZFan", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (15:17)", "body": "I've finished the copy of Darcy's Story lent to me (Tracey owns it, Mari graciously sent it on). Would anyone like to borrow it next? Lynn? Email me at EZFan@aol.com. I have to admit that I read it in almost one sitting, but that said, I don't think it's great. The text seemes very flat - came to life in several places, mostly quoted here, in which Darcy speaks. Perhaps I'm expecting too much from a sequel, but I keep reading them. I've read some Tennant (awful), Barrett (even worse), Aiken (OK, I gu ss). The sequels/related books that have given pleasure are 1) A Visit to Highbury by Joan Austen-Leigh (Emma from another point of view. Letters between Mrs. Goddard and her sister - who suffers herself from some of Emma's faults). 2) The Stephanie Barron Jane mysteries. They are heavy handed, but fun to imagine. 3) Fay Weldon's Letters to Alice on first reading Jane Austen."}, {"response": 111, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (20:39)", "body": "Susan, thanks for the offer, but Johanne has already e-mailed me, and will be lending me a copy. I stayed up way too late last night reading the stuff at DWG. I had read everything at Fan Fiction and wanted to go back and read the beginnings. I've been here since January, but I haven't had time to read everything yet, so I always feel like I'm playing catch-up. Looking forward to reading the book."}, {"response": 112, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (07:07)", "body": "Lynn, I enjoyed Darcy's Story, but I think that reading all this group's Fan Fiction will spoil you for Janet Aylmer's story. Do not expect too much imagination nor any passion. But, I hope that you will ejoy it anyway."}, {"response": 113, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (08:58)", "body": "Linda, I completely agree with you. Reading Darcy's Story did not give me any more insites than what has been written in FanFiction. And I enjoy reading that much more."}, {"response": 114, "author": "Vivsy", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:16)", "body": "Wendy please add me to your email list. Have loved all the fiction that I have read. I just got Darcy's Story yesterday and spent all night reading. I enjoyed it, but I think the fan fiction is just as good!!!"}, {"response": 115, "author": "LaDemoiselle", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:58)", "body": "Wendy, put me on the email list too. I can say I have liked the fan fiction. I read Darcy's Story about a month ago (I was shocked to have found that I read it all in the same day), and even for its oopses, I still enjoyed it. True...I have to agree with a lot of other people saying that he loses some of that P&P mystery that excites us, but I still liked it a lot. I also read Dorothy Alice Bonavia-Hunt's pastiche, called Pemberley Shades: A Novel (It's out of print now and hard to trace, bu I found at the public library). It actually is not bad at all, worth reading too. It is nothing like the infamous Tennant I have heard so much about (I heard she was bad, so I think I won't bother with her books)."}, {"response": 116, "author": "summit", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (21:01)", "body": "CF, In Another Country (not Darcy, but that look is so...) Ladies, I thought we lacked visuals here, so..."}, {"response": 117, "author": "summit", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "try this: http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/firthlist/judd3.jpg"}, {"response": 118, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:39)", "body": ""}, {"response": 119, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (23:06)", "body": "Whoa, big hair! austen conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 169, "subject": "Gallery Upstairs II", "response_count": 10, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (00:33)", "body": "Here is Hil's latest, Darcy in implied buttercups."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (00:38)", "body": "And here is the old that used to be in the thread that's missing:"}, {"response": 3, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (10:15)", "body": "Wow! What talent we have...great job Hilary!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (16:12)", "body": "Oh, Hilary! Really great and so sensitive that new one 'in the buttercups'(?) Would this be before or after one of his much spoken of swims in pond? You express yourself drawing, others try writing...anything to be allowed to dwell on much beloved subject."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (17:39)", "body": "Thanks Ann and Linda. Swim? could be either, Ann, but I must admit to having other activities in mind."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (01:35)", "body": "Maybe 'a swim in the pond' in a figurative sense might hint at 'other activities to be added to our list of addict tongue, like daggy, and spring tingle and are there more? Bye the way I have been meaning to ask Hilary and Amy if they ever found a word for that stupid manner of Mr Collins to silence himself, bringing fingers to his lips(yeek). If not, may I suggest 'the humble hush' ? (maybe humble-hush as a verb too?)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (16:50)", "body": "Haven't come across 'spring tingle', yet! As for Mr. Collins, we decided schnozzle-shooshing was quite promising! Though the humble-hush is good and a lot easier to spell!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (08:58)", "body": "our list of addict tongue, like daggy, and spring tingle and are there more? __ Your own drug name, Ann, what was it?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (13:08)", "body": "How could you ever forget Amy, are you not on it any more? Priprejudin is most beneficial, even in large and repeated doses. Hilary told me of that Collins schnozle - no what was it? ; sorry it was rather difficult and I had one in mind, a synonym if you like: the humblehush ."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (13:12)", "body": "Oh, blunder indeed. This is what happens when you visit at long intervals and only read the new responses. I come out a complete moron here. How delightful!! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 170, "subject": "Old BBC Emma", "response_count": 35, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (01:13)", "body": "I like this one the best out of all the BBC productions. The Emma is very good, the relationship between her and Mr. Knightly was very nice and believable...but this Mr. Knightly was much too old! He's only 37, but this guy was 45 if he were a day! But I did like him, he grew on me so til by the end, I thought him very attractive indeed! ;-)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (03:51)", "body": "Someday I should like to see this version, Auntie."}, {"response": 3, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (08:40)", "body": "Cheryl -- I agree with you about the age of Mr Knightley, and also about how the actor's portrayal helped us forget that difference from the book. Since we could say the same thing about Emma Thompson as Elinor and Alan Rickman as Col Brandon in S&S, I guess the age of the actors is less important than the acting and screenplay. At least this version of Emma is long enough to get more of the story covered. But then, as we have discussed re P&P2, no adaptation can really cover everything we want to see!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (09:01)", "body": "This Harriet is darn near perfect in looks, don't you think?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (09:05)", "body": "Yes, Amy, this Harriet is so pretty and sweet looking -- very much as I imagined her from the novel. Looking at this Harriet, I can understand Emma's thinking that many men would find Harriet attractive (or cute, at least)."}, {"response": 6, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (09:06)", "body": "This is also my favorite of the early BBC adaptations. But I agree with the age assessment of Mr. Knightly. He does seem too old. But better that than too young. His age and the skill of the actor made the discovery of the love between Emma and Knightly (may I call him Knightly?)more faithful to the book where they are both surprised by love. One of my criticisms of the Miramax Emma(although I did love it) was that Emma and Knightly seemed like the perfect couple the first time they were on screen to ether and that detracted from the eventual discovery of their love. I hated the costumes in this version. The men's coats all looked like polyester to me. And that hat!!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (09:15)", "body": "I like Mrs. Elton and the Knightly conversation and the humor he saw in her.Poor Jane Fairfax her life wasn't her own."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (10:54)", "body": "Myretta, you are just right about the Miramax Emma when you say the couple seems too right from the beginning. I never pinpointed that part, but yes, it does take away from the drama and surprise."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (16:50)", "body": "I felt the same way about this Mr. Knightley. When I figured out in the opening scene that he was George, I thought, \"No, NO, it can't be him!\" By the end of the show, though, I was fair to be in love with him. I particularly liked the way he raised his eyebrows at certain comments, his manner with Emma, and the way he dealt with Mrs. Elton. You Northam ladies will hate me, but I liked this actor's portrayal much better. I loved Mr. Woodhouse in this production. He made me laugh harder than any other character. When Frank Churchill says he's known little children to slip in unawares and open windows in cold weather, Mr. W's \"Have you? Have you really ?\" had me in stitches. I own this version and have watched it several times -- it never fails to delight."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (17:09)", "body": "Susan, your review of this version of Emma has made me want to run right out and buy it. I can't find it to rent, so I think I'll have to succumb to this urge! Perhaps I'll get it in time to join in the discussion here. It sounds better than either of the shorter versions, Miramax's and A&E's next Sunday."}, {"response": 11, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (18:37)", "body": "Susan -- I do so agree with you regarding Mr Woodhouse. He's such a fuss budget in this version, just as much (or even more so) as in the novel. And the actor is so thin he really looks like he could break in a strong wind -- perfectly cast, IMO. Regarding casting: the actress playing Emma has eyebrows that seem always to be expressing surprise -- too plucked and too arched, perhaps. I do like her acting in general, however. I have decided that I like both of the versions of Emma that I have seen, and I hope to like the new one next Sunday. Each has its virtues, and I have come to appreciate them for that. (I have decided to become more like Jane Bennet and see only the good in these JA adaptations -- I may one day be able to rewatch the 1940 P&P!) :=)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (19:28)", "body": "PEOPLE Online Reviews A&E's EMMA click on Picks and Pans http://pathfinder.com/@@yKZDxAYAHUWO25v6/people/toc ."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (20:10)", "body": "I thought that this adaptation had the relationship between Emma and Mr. Woodhouse just right! I've always been frustrated by Mr. Woodhouse and would have a hard time dealing with him on a daily basis myself...afraid I'm rather like John Knightly in this respect...but Emma always handles him so beautifully---\"handle\" being the operative word here! ;-) She deals with him with such patience and love, I really admire that about her, even when there are things about her that I don't like! ;-)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (21:17)", "body": "For those of you who want to buy this video set, I got it through the Signals catalog. They sell a lot of PBS stuff. It's about $30 for 2 videotapes. I don't have a current catalog, but could probably find an order phone number if needed."}, {"response": 15, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (07:16)", "body": "A classic Mr Woodhouse line: \"It is a sad thing to live, as it were, from one cup of gruel to the next.\" I had to laugh at this silly old man, and appreciate the handling Emma does."}, {"response": 16, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (09:38)", "body": "I own this version and like it very much indeed. Mr. Woodhouse is a hoot. Harriet is perfect....\"Oh, Miss Woodhouse\". Mr Knighly grew on me in this production, too. By the end I believed hin to be perfect for Emma. Miss Bates was rather old in this production, was she not?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (09:52)", "body": "We've talked about this before, but there are always so many new people... Doesn't the Emma in Emma1 look like the actress who plays Mrs. Gardiner in P&P2?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Kessa", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (03:47)", "body": "I loved Emma1! I also thought that Knightley was a bit to old for the part, but by the second tape I thought he was perfect for the role! I didn't get to see JN Emma (I know, I know...) It wasn't here at the theator. (Can we say, reason to sue!) So I can not compare the 2.But I will say the 2 on dose seem a little short in min. for an Austen novel. In the book thow it leads us to believe that Emma is the prettier of the 2 but in the movie, while both actress are lovely, Harriet seems more so. Then again Emmas eyebrows were always moveing and I was always wondering what they would do next! But Emma in the first one did seem more glamoures (I sopose you could say) then Harriet. Harriet reminded me of a little kitten, just the way I thought she should be I guess. The is a place online to order the book if anyone is interested e-mail me and I will e-mail it to you. The 2 tapes are $21.99(US), not includeing shipping. Kessa"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Kessa", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (03:48)", "body": "OOOPPPS!! I don't mean to order the BOOK, I mean the movie!! What can I say its 3:26am here."}, {"response": 20, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (12:57)", "body": "Response 8 : I too very much agree with you as did Amy. Since I only read the book after, only now am I fully aware of the lack of surprise, thought it waas rather subtle, as if (in my perception or the viewer's) it was meant to be"}, {"response": 21, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:11)", "body": "BTW anybody ever seen what we could call Emma 0 the 1932 version http://us.imdb.com/cache/title-exact/30388"}, {"response": 22, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:16)", "body": "From Johanne: BTW anybody ever seen what we could call Emma 0 the 1932 version From the imdb link: Anne Shirley.... Girl (as Dawn O'Day) From me: Dawn O'day?!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:33)", "body": "Never even heard of it, Johanne. Thanks. It guess it would be Emma0. What a find."}, {"response": 24, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:40)", "body": "Why not the whole cast : Marie Dressler .... Emma Thatcher (AAN) Richard Cromwell .... Ronnie Smith Jean Hersholt .... Frederick Smith Myrna Loy .... Isabelle John Miljan .... District Attorney Purnell Pratt .... Haskins Leila Bennett .... Matilda Barbara Kent .... Gypsy Kathryn Crawford .... Sue George Meeker .... Bill Dale Fuller .... Maid Wilfred Noy .... Drake Andre Cheron .... Count Pierre Anne Shirley .... Girl (as Dawn O'Day) Dorothy Peterson .... Woman Mickey Rooney .... Bit Part Jay Ward .... Bit Emma Thatcher, the Smith Brothers, Bill, Mickey Ronnie as Bit Part ? Dawn Evelyn Paris aka Dawn O'Day, what an interesting career, daughter Julie Payne..."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:44)", "body": "Wait a second. Those character names do not make sense. I wonder if this was an early Clueless kind of Emma..."}, {"response": 26, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (14:10)", "body": "Where to find this thing, got to see it..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (07:53)", "body": "I MUST defend my beloved Miramax adaptation, Amy! You say that the leads are to obviously and handsomely-matched from the beginning? And how is that wrong? I think that it is meant to be very plain, from the start of the novel, that they are PERFECT for eachother. And anyway, Emma is supposed to be pretty and Mr. Knightley is supposed to be pretty hot."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (08:21)", "body": "] I think that it is meant to be very plain, from the start of the novel, that they are PERFECT for eachother. Oh, Kali, please don't lets argue about Emma anymore. By all means, love your adaptation to death! It is your right, of course. All I am saying is that I, just, me, remember not tumbling about Emma and Knightley's suitability for each other the first time I read the novel, not 'til quite deep into the book, if I recall, not until after she realizes Frank is not for her and I realize no other men have come on the scene."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (08:24)", "body": "Okay, okay...I getcha."}, {"response": 30, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (17:36)", "body": "Amy -- Since you have admitted as much, I will confess that although I love the Miramax adaptation (7 viewings in the theater, and a videotape to be ordered at first opportunity), I was not certain of the heroine's and hero's perfect suitability on first, second and probably third reading of the novel. I first read \"Emma\" when I was about 19, and like Marianne Dashwood, I was convinced that a man age 37 was well past the age of romance. As I grew in age and experience, Mr Knightly seemed more and more perfect -- for Emma or me!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (17:52)", "body": "I finally finished viewing the old BBC Emma and liked it very much. I really enjoyed having all the characters filled out more than in the Miramax version, particularly Mr. Woodhouse! Susan I really feel the same way you did about this version; Knightley grows on you as you get into it, Emma is good as is Harriet. I thought Miss Bates was great, and Mrs. Elton - ugh -- perfectly horrible just as she's meant to be. I'm now all anticipation for this Sunday's version and wonder how it will hold up."}, {"response": 32, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (20:46)", "body": "I have seen this version, and I do think it had its good parts, but I think it did go on a bit too long. I know they included everything, but I just wanted it to get moving or something. Mr. Knightly was too old, and while he grew on me, too, I found it hard to believe that Emma, young as she was, would find him attractive. Mr. Woodhouse was great, much better than the Miramax Mr. W. In the Miramax one, you dont get the idea of how troublesome he could be. Where are we discussing last nights' A&E ver ion? Not sure I was crazy about it....."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (09:51)", "body": "Emma 1 is very good and has the best overall casting in my opinion. Mr Knightley a bit oldish and admittedly not as dashing as Jeremy N. But very believable in his feelings for Emma - great voice! Mr Woodhouse and Mrs Elton are the best in this version, Miss Bates so good, Emma is clever, amiable and selfassured. Can't remember Jane F. but this Frank is rather good in my opinion and not as cruel as in Emma 3.And as mentioned above the sweetness of Harriet 1 makes Emmas planning more understandable; she st ll seems robust enough for a farmers wife. I fear Harriet 3 was a bit delicate and Harriet 2 not elegant enough for Frank or Mr Elton.Miss the beautiful singing and dancing from 2 and 3 and of course the gardens and landscape are not getting attention enough here. Do you not love the scene where Emma has let it slip out that she wondered if Mr K. might marry Jane F. and he is so amused and serious:'I could never love a reserved person' And Emma is so confused and he finds the pair of scissors for her..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (01:10)", "body": "Do you not love the scene where Emma has let it slip out that she wondered if Mr K. might marry Jane F. and he is so amused and serious:'I could never love a reserved person' And Emma is so confused and he finds the pair of scissors for her... Yes, Anne, I do love that scene and the entire production. I also like, just before this scene, when Emma is fuming over Mrs. Elton having called Mr. Knightley Knightley and he smiles somewhat mysteriously as he listens to her rave."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Arnessa", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:01)", "body": "Well, thanks to Myretta loaning me a copy, I just recently viewed Emma1. And I must agree with most of the posters here that it is the best so far. It is far from perfect, doesn't nearly reach the level of our beloved P&P2, but I think this has much to do with the static sets, stark lighting and other production concerns. I agree wholeheartedly with Ann that this one is by far the best cast of all the productions. I know how much people admire Sophie Thompson's Miss Bates, but I think this Miss Bates is better in several ways. She looks the right age, but more importantly she is more of a character and less a caricature than Thompson's creation. We all know that JA walks a fine line between sketching and skewering her silly characters, but they are usually as alive and real as her heroines. To me, it seemed at times that Thompson was overdoing it. The Emma1 Miss Bates reminded me of several gossips in the small tow where my grandmother lives who are always plying you with cake and relating tales of some relative you have little knowledge of. She was endearing and annoying at once. Sophie Thompson was endearing only at Box Hill. And as to Mr. Knightley looking too old, I'll have NONE of it. He was perfect. I could see a girl of one-and-twenty falling for such a solid, stable, gentlemanly man. I LOVED Frank Churchill in this film, but my heart raced each time Mr. Knightley came into the room and I broke into a wide grin. I guess I like older men too. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 171, "subject": "HELP!", "response_count": 107, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (21:42)", "body": "Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 293 of 304: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Mon, Feb 3, 1997 (20:30) * 1 lines The Spring server is dishing out multiple helpings of SERVER ERROR messages this evening. At about 5:25 PST it gave me 5 in a row but finally connected from the main menu - at which time it looked as if Austen had been struck with Old-is-new again - it li sted 167 topics as being new - but when I entered, it turned out to be a false alarm - THANK GOODNESS! But the server errors continue..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 294 of 304: Johanne (JohanneD) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (19:25) * 1 lines Same with me on Monday : multiple Server error, old is new on one topic but all was well after that ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 295 of 304: Myretta (mrobens) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:05) * 3 lines multiple Server error, Monday AM. Couldn't see anything immediately wrong with system. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 296 of 304: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (23:07) * 2 lines Does anyone know what happened to the next topic button? It seems to have been replaced by a hand written one????? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 297 of 304: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (23:17) * 2 lines Gee, I wonder who's to blame? Picture: [AMY] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 298 of 304: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (00:21) * 1 lines Geez! what a tattle-tale! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 299 of 304: Susan Christie (Susan) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (01:16) * 2 lines And also, sometimes that button is \"Previous Topic\" and sometimes \"Next Topic.\" Can it be changed to always be Next Topic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 300 of 304: Amy (Amy) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (08:08) * 6 lines Terry, I take it you don't like my experiment. I don't know if you have been following our ongoing button saga. It seems it is impossible to change buttons on a conference by conference basis. You would probably agree that the green, red and blue buttons look ghastly with our regency green. So what to do? I'll keep at it in hopes of finding something that blends better with both color schemes. Though, truthfully? I made the Middlemarch and droo l conferencs to match the buttons? And I am starting to like their looks. All things considered, though, it might be best to have a more neutral button, so that conferences do not have to be designed around them. No? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 301 of 304: Amy (Amy) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (08:09) * 6 lines ] And also, sometimes that button is \"Previous Topic\" and sometimes \"Next Topic.\" Can it be changed to always be Next Topic? __ I am not sure what you mean, Susan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 302 of 304: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (08:42) * 1 lines Just make it look good. I'm looking at it on a monochrome notebook. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 303 of 304: Susan Christie (Susan) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (22:09) * 3 lines #301 Amy, sometimes my Next Topic button is at the bottom right of my message screen, but sometimes it is clear over at the bottom left. I haven't figured out any rhyme or reason to it -- maybe I'm doing something weird? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 170 [austen]: HELP! Response 304 of 304: Amy (Amy) * Sun, Feb 9, 1997 (21:31) * 8 lines Amy, sometimes my Next Topic button is at the bottom right of my message screen, but sometimes it is clear over at the bottom left. I haven't figured out any rhyme or reason to it -- maybe I'm doing something weird? __ That must be it, Susan. You must be doing something weird. No, really two explanations I can think of. Maybe you are resizing your browser window, like if you made it small, you would cause buttons to jump down to begin a new row. The other thing is the t hat the main conference page has different buttons from each topic page. One example: you can search for text in the whole conference on the front page, no search is available by topic."}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "The new buttons look good but they're kind of big."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (23:39)", "body": "Terry: The new buttons look good but they're kind of big. Terry, I like the bigger size. It makes it much harder to hit the wrong one by mistake (which I have been known to do!) ;-)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (09:00)", "body": "Terry, re the buttons. Could we give them a few days to see how they grow on you? Then, maybe switch back to the old ones for a day to compare. They struck me as a little large at first too. In fact Henry is helping me refine them, has already made them a little smaller, and is going to mess around with the type. The advantage to square buttons is that they are all the same size. When a new row of buttons must begin because the size of the browser window had been reduced, they all line up vertically like a keyboard, unlike the old buttons which varied in width. Another advantage to the shape is that we can have fun with it -- put graphical emoti ons on the button template, stuff like that. But, I don't want to push them down your throat. And I can take a little critisism, though not a lot. If you do hate them a lot, don't say so; make up some excuse."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:05)", "body": "Dear Amy!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:41)", "body": "Amy, thanks for making all these cool changes to our site! Everything looks great. I have no Server problems or otherwise to report. Thanks for being such a benevolent Topic Mistress and Queen of HTML!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (14:44)", "body": "Amy (and of course, Henry), I love the new look. Also, it goes quicker for me. Last week it took over a minute to go back to the main page."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (16:09)", "body": "Amy, please, please keep the new buttons!! I like them much better than the old ones; they're bigger, easier to hit with a wandering mouse, and much prettier with their new colours!! Thank you for all your hard work on this site!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (16:14)", "body": "Yes, do keep the new buttons it is easier on our \"fine eyes\"."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:47)", "body": "Thanks, but... well, what were you supposed to say to such a pouter as I am?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (19:43)", "body": "I can't find Ramble even if I show all topics. Where did it go?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (20:59)", "body": "*sigh* Amy! ;-)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (23:50)", "body": "Ramble is back."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (00:04)", "body": "Amy, I came into this site with no other aim than to praise you to the skies for all you do to make it good for the rest of us. We appreciate you so much!! (And I really do love the new buttons -- I'm not just kissing up!)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (16:21)", "body": "Me too. I'm really for this new size and shape, kind to eyes as mentioned and it all looks so elegant, why even Lady Cath would find it hard to complain, like That is rather a small button you have got there!(Snorty look and vexed clicking of the mouse"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (16:56)", "body": "Snorty look. I love that, Ann."}, {"response": 17, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (20:20)", "body": "I saw it on a high res screen at the mall and really like it, I'm used to seeing it on my mono notebook. Nice job, Amy!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (23:14)", "body": "Oh good."}, {"response": 19, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (21:51)", "body": "Amy As a newcomer, I gather that you are the host of this great site. Could you tell me how I can get into the drool spot? It keeps asking me for a password, but as i haven't registered I can't give it one. Help!! Kate"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (22:06)", "body": "Sure, just go here: http://208.199.212.10/yapp-bin/restricted/index and add drool to your conference hotlist (bottom of page) If you really are not registered -- and I think you must be or you would not be able to post here, go to: http://208.199.212.10/yapp.html"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (01:52)", "body": "Kate, use the same password you use to get here...don;t know why it asks for it again, but it does..."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (08:01)", "body": "Oh, that's right, Cheryl, I think I set up the drool conference so you have to sign up even to read it. But I wasn't sure if the measure worked."}, {"response": 23, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (09:27)", "body": "Thanks - worked like a charm"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (19:12)", "body": "] , I think I set up the drool conference so you have to sign up even to read it. fwiw; it's never asked me for a password..."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (20:30)", "body": "Anna: fwiw; it's never asked me for a password... If you've put the Drool Conference on your \"hotlist\" (as of course I have!) you can just hit the \"next conference\" button at the top and it will take you there without having to sign in again. Baby, I know how to get into the Drool Conference! ;-)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (22:44)", "body": "I never doubted it Cheryl ;-)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (18:16)", "body": "Carl, or somebody who had trouble getting into Spring, would you mind going over to the old board to see if you can identify whether their trouble getting in here may be similar to yours? I've said about all I can think to say to them. Some seem pretty new to computers and/or the net, so I've been trying to draw them out and spell out the exact trouble. But I feel so helpless, not quite understand what this bwowzo pwobwum actually is."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (23:49)", "body": "Amy, sorry about my hasty departure from PCR---AOL booted me off when I downloaded one of the sound files---said something about an illegal operation(?). Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. One more thing, frequently when I try to post I get the box which asks for my name and password but no matter how carefully I type it in, I get it 3 times and then get a message which says I am not authorized to access this document and then my message gets dumped (it has happened twice with this message!) Why?"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (23:50)", "body": "Third time's the charm!;-)"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (08:28)", "body": "Your browser has probably saved a misspelled user name or password from a while ago. The only solution is to keep saving correct ones until it \"takes.\" That's a technical explanation.. ; )"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (13:51)", "body": "Oh, something else to fault Aol for . . . . . . .;-)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (16:12)", "body": "From the Yapp conference. Does not look like any of our troubles have yet been fixed. Topic 49 of 49: Release Information Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (22:04) | Kaylene Thaler (kaylene@armidale.ann-arbor.mi.us) The following is an update on added abilities, and bug fixes in the most recient versions of Yapp. *************** VERSION 3.0.14 ********************* Yapp now creates the partdir (participation directory) immediately. Previously, particpation directories could get trashed if they were being updated when the system crashed. Now particpation files are written atomically. From the WWW there was a malformed header error as a result of forgetting an item. This error has been fixed. There was an I/O bug on Solaris which has been fixed. The acl file now contains the proper information when a conference is created a file. If you enter a security number under the old system, the appropriate acl information is derived. The following have been added to Yapp: The commands `change cfjoin' and `display cfjoin'. Default .cflist, .cfrc, and .cfonce files are now allowed. The variables cancacl, canracl, canwacl, and canaacl have been added to allow checking for read/write/enter permissions to allow the web interface to be less ambiguous. ******************** VERSION 3.0.15 ********************* The bug in the acl file which allowed users to enter a responce when the acl file restriced who could respond has been fixed. Yapp was changed such that when you change a conference config file for a maillist conference, the maillist file is automatically updated. Mailing list conferences can now be linked to more than one mailing list. Line 6 of the conference config file can now contain comma separated email addresses. ********************* Future Release Information ********* In up and comming releases, the numbering system for Yapp will change. Any new functionality will have a 3.1.X number, and only bug fixes for current functions will follow the 3.0.X numbering scheme. If you want to follow the most recent developments follow the 3.1.X scheme. If you want stable code follow the 3.0.X Your current Yapp license will still be valid for both the 3.0.X and the 3.1.X schemes. numbering."}, {"response": 33, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (06:51)", "body": "VERSION 3.0.15 The bug in the acl file which allowed users to enter a responce when the acl file restriced who could respond has been fixed. --------------------------------------- This may fix the austenarchive problem that I had to force. Have we been upgraded to this version? Should we test it?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (02:04)", "body": "Amy Not sure where to post this, and was sure you would spot it here. When I went to the opera tonight (Marraige of Figaro, Metropolitan) I nearly fell out of my seat when half way through the second act Cherubino starts singing Lizzy's Pemberly song (sigh) Is there a thread anywhere that talks about the music on P&P2 (ie, song names and sources etc) Nice to chat tonight. Will try to stop by on Saturday, but we are going to Empire Strikes Back (yes it's out this week) and we may be queuing (that's British/Australian for standing in line)"}, {"response": 35, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (06:29)", "body": "A new strain of the \"everything old is new again\" hit me Thursday. I have been using the \"since/-1/new\" method of viewing for a while, and read through all the new topic comments at 3 pm (est). At 8 pm some of these topics (all in the 190's, I believe) had everything old new again. Other topics displayed only the new messages."}, {"response": 36, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (23:39)", "body": "Our system clock was off by about 20 hours! But I just set it for the correct time with the unix command date 970222233725.00 ... if anyone notes that the time is off please email me or Amy right away so we can reset it."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (06:33)", "body": "Right, Terry. Like I'd know how to do that. I'd have to ask \"somebody.\""}, {"response": 38, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (07:56)", "body": "In UNIX, when you type man date you get a manual on how to use the date command. The date command also sets the time. So to set the date *and* time at a shell prompt (similar to a dos prompt) you type something like this: bash$ date 970223075205 which will set the date to the year 97, the month 02 or Feb, the date the 23rd and the time the 07th hour and 52nd minute and 05th second. Does that help?"}, {"response": 39, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (08:33)", "body": "Okaay, so it wasn't just me - Thank You, Terry!"}, {"response": 40, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (14:00)", "body": "It wasn't just you, it was our whole system clock that was off. We're back on time now."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (22:39)", "body": "Does anybody else ever have a problem with the reponse area field disappearing? Sometimes I think it has to do with a stuffed cache; other times I'm not so sure."}, {"response": 42, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (06:47)", "body": "Amy, I noticed this happening yesterday. I thought is was due to the atrocious response time on the system; the area just wasn't loading. Have you noticed it before?"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (07:43)", "body": "] Have you noticed it before? ________ On occasion before yesterday, yes."}, {"response": 44, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (07:50)", "body": "Hmmm. Does it happen randomly or is it related to something else, like response time?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (07:55)", "body": "Yes, I think it is related to response time."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (09:52)", "body": "Last couple of days it has been so slow here, I dread coming. I guess the system is getting too full again -- or something?"}, {"response": 47, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (12:47)", "body": "I have been thinking there was something wrong with my connection...so it is slow for everybody? Are the response numbers or postings or whatever being kept track of? Are they extremely highnumbered lately?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (15:13)", "body": "It was as slow as molasses for me yesterday, also. I thought it was on my end, but maybe it was here. I would think this should go faster since there is so much less now with the rest in archives. Of course, what would I know - I know zilch how this whole thing works!"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (15:31)", "body": "Hi Inko, I'm delighted to bring your new chapters of Fitz to bed with me now. I'll read them and then maybe write a few line on my grownup Darcy bit...Wonder if Amy is doing her Mature Darcy ? This message is partly a time check..."}, {"response": 50, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (15:38)", "body": "No, Ann2, I haven't had the heart for anything like that lately."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (17:04)", "body": "Help! What's happening with Spring?? It was fine at 4:30 p.m. est, but by 5:00 p.m. est it's taking forever to load - it just took me 20 minutes to get into the main page!! I'm impatient - I hate waiting around like that!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (21:44)", "body": "The system keeps bouncing me out - I can't move from topic to topic ARGHHHH!"}, {"response": 53, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (21:49)", "body": "Kate - Or anyone else who may get in here. We are aware of the problem and are working on it. Sorry you are having such a hard time."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (06:45)", "body": "The amount of pictures must be a lot larger than it was earlier. Does this affect loading time of topics?"}, {"response": 55, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (06:50)", "body": "Graphics may slow down an individual topic, but the problems we were experiencing yesterday and the day before were system related."}, {"response": 56, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (07:00)", "body": "I seem to be zooming through everything now, though! (Good thing as everything was \"new\")"}, {"response": 57, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (07:00)", "body": "I seem to be zooming through everything now, though! (Good thing as everything was \"new\")"}, {"response": 58, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (07:00)", "body": ""}, {"response": 59, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (07:22)", "body": "I seem to be missing the fanfic topic. I have tried all--new--last week--forgotten and it does not appear on any of them. Is this happening to anyone else?"}, {"response": 60, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (07:41)", "body": "I seem to be missing the fanfic topic. I have tried all--new--last week--forgotten and it does not appear on any of them. Is this happening to anyone else? Fan Fiction through 2/24 was moved to the Austenarchive conference and we began having system problems before a new one was created. That has been remedied. Topic 201."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (07:52)", "body": "Thanks, Myretta."}, {"response": 62, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (08:40)", "body": "We wouldn't want to leave you without a forum, Carolyn."}, {"response": 63, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (10:25)", "body": "Myretta, you are too good."}, {"response": 64, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:35)", "body": "AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! Old is new strikes again! Circumstances: Several failed attempts to enter the Austen conf - some timed out, one resulting in a \"server error\" message, following which everything was new again."}, {"response": 65, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:51)", "body": "Oh, no, Joan,too -- you appear to be in such pain. Is there nothing we can do to bring you relief? Shall we call your butler? A glass of wine, shall we get one?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:54)", "body": "I got hit with it a day or two ago. My dearest sympathies Joan. When I got hit, I had lots of unread messages and topics, so the theory that it only happens when everything is read doesn't apply."}, {"response": 67, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:03)", "body": "Yesterday was my hit day. My cat sat on my lap for a long time while we went through them. Is there no cure? An \"Everything new is old again\" button? (Or a glass of wine, perhaps?)"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:57)", "body": "I'm sorry Joan. I hope it wasn't because of the topic cleaning I have just been doing. But I wasn't doing any yesterday, or whenever Ann and Cheryl were stricken, so we can't point a definite finger at behinds-the-scenes work. Will we ever know?"}, {"response": 69, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:00)", "body": "Amy -- I was hit with a version of Oldiznu this afternoon. It happened right after I had switched to all in order to find a topic with no recent activity. When I switched back to \"since/-1/new\" I found that the topics which came up (containing current responses) had oldiznu-itis."}, {"response": 70, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:20)", "body": "Amy/Joan I have had some trouble working out how to operate the sound-bits at austen test. I have left a message there... :-)"}, {"response": 71, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:21)", "body": "Joan, too, your message was a perfect indicator of your frustration. Having experienced OIN myself, I know that feeling well, but I was not nearly so good-natured about it. At the very least, you gave the rest of us a great laugh, which is always a very good thing! Sorry you had to be inconvenienced to produce it, though."}, {"response": 72, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (00:02)", "body": "I have again been struck with old is new...the second time this week! I am most grievously to be pitied!"}, {"response": 73, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "Is it my imagination, or has the Oldiznu bug been in hybernation until the last few days. Seems to me no one has complained about it for a month or so. Has the house cleaning at The Spring inadvertently let the cat back out of the bag? If so, what would have caused the mummy to arise out of its sarcophagus?"}, {"response": 74, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (00:48)", "body": "I am most grievously to be pitied! And you are, you are, Cheryl! For the sakes of all of you, I hope someone solves this 'crime' soon."}, {"response": 75, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (04:24)", "body": "After hours of diddling, I think I have discovered a relatively efficient way to recover from All-Is-New. While at the main page of the Austen conference, with \"all\" selected, modify the location line in the browser to read /all/noresp. hit return/enter, and you will get another list of all conferences. Choose the first one. It will load with no responses shown. When it does, click the Next Topic button. Repeat till all topics have loaded in this way with no responses displayed! After this, hen you ask for \"All new\" nothing will be new. You can now read using -1 or last 7 days or whatever, and just the responses you have requested will be displayed. Topics with no recent activity will not appear. (Of course I only discovered this after I had already re-read - in some manner or other - all of the topics except for the last 6, but NEXT time, I shall be ready! I hope, though, that there will never again be any use for this technique - for anyone!)"}, {"response": 76, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (07:39)", "body": "Someone (?) requested that I post this here--sorry I can't recall who and sorry it's taken so long (my little one and I have been ill). Re: changing your computer's sounds First, this is for WIN95. Second, please don't hold me responsible if anything untoward occurs, I am a neophyte at this.;-) After you have downloaded wav files of your choice to your hard drive, click Start, go to settings, then control panel. Click on the 'sounds\" icon. You will see a listing of every place that your computer has sounds or has the capability of producing sounds. (those with sounds will have a horn icon next to them). Choose one from the list (like Welcome) and double-click on it. A window will pop-up, showing which sound is saved for Welcome. Since you want to change this, click browse, and where it says look in' select your hard drive (C drive in my case). Find your downloaded files, select the one most appropriate to 'Welcome', preview it if necessary, then apply. A word of caution--my family is most annoyed with the longer files, but that's their problem, isn't it!;-) I hope this makes sense--will those of you who understand this better please jump in and straighten out any errors or confusing bits? Thanks!"}, {"response": 77, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (10:23)", "body": "And you are, you are, Cheryl! For the sakes of all of you, I hope someone solves this 'crime' soon. Susan, we have been fighting this battle since we came to the Spring and it doesn't look like we'll be able to fix this problem without help from the software developer. The best we can do is share ways to deal with it. Joan's solution is a good way to deal with it. Amy, is the \"frozen\" topic still there? Maybe we need to freeze more frequently. I haven't been struck since I started doing this on a regular basis."}, {"response": 78, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "Good fix, Joan. I had not even known about that \"noresp\" switch. Yes, Myretta. The dummy topic is still here. I am afraid I confused people at first, because, even after 3 months here, I still don't know all the Yapp lingo. It is topic 187, \"Forget this topic.\" But see, I named it \"Freeze this topic\" at first and that wasn't right. Freeze is an admin function, forget a user thing."}, {"response": 79, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (12:57)", "body": "#76 Meggin, I was the one who left you the message about downloading sounds. Thanks so much for responding -- Joan, too, also told me where to find lots to use. You're both great! Now if I can just get my husband as excited about it as I am (we share the computer)!"}, {"response": 80, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (12:58)", "body": "Meggin, I also hope you and your little one are all better now -- that nasty stuff is really going around."}, {"response": 81, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "Good fix, Joan. I had not even known about that \"noresp\" switch. And one that ought not to work! If you are displaying no responses, your markers ought not to change, but it appears that they do. Terry told us about the noresp option way back at the beginning when I asked how one could post a response in a topic that currently had no \"new\" postings in it without having to display the whole topic again just to get a text entry box."}, {"response": 82, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:07)", "body": "I've been bumped on several responses. Thought I was getting paranoid and you just didn't like me or I was just too stupid to be in such brilliant company. I don't say that sarcastically, I really felt that way. NOW, Please tell me how to get to the rest of Cassandras sequel. I tried to go back to Feb 28 as directed and nothing happens. I gotta read it. It's great."}, {"response": 83, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:18)", "body": "Claudia: NOW, Please tell me how to get to the rest of Cassandras sequel. I tried to go back to Feb 28 as directed and nothing happens. I gotta read it. It's great. Did you try the Derbyshire Writers Guild? It's at: http://www.spring.com/~anneh/derby/ and I hope that's right!"}, {"response": 84, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:17)", "body": "I've been bumped on several responses. Thought I was getting paranoid and you just didn't like me or I was just too stupid to be in such brilliant company. I don't say that sarcastically, I really felt that way. Boy, does it ever feel that way! When it (the bumping) occurs there seems to be no remedy for it and it can quickly reduce one to tears. It is the most frustrating, annoying, aggravating, maddening (don't pick just one of these--it is all of these and more ) occurance I have ever experienced!:-("}, {"response": 85, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:31)", "body": "Am I the only one missing the CF thread on drool? It disappeared yesterday for me, and I am going through agonies of withdrawal! Can anyone put me out of my misery? Please????"}, {"response": 86, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (23:05)", "body": "I just got bumped, too"}, {"response": 87, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (23:53)", "body": "Am I the only one missing the CF thread on drool? It disappeared yesterday for me, Nothing is gone - the software just marked it as already seen. You can see everything again by chosing \"All\" (instead of \"new\") at the entry page, or see the stuff posted within the last week by choosing that option. (And if you are very unlucky, the fates may decide to curse you with the \"Old-is-new\" syndrome, and ALL of your place markers will be moved back to the beginning - a major bummer! All of these things are unpleasant bugs in the YAPP software, and not anything to be taken personally."}, {"response": 88, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (00:08)", "body": "Don't mean to get whiny about this, but he really isn't there! Not in \"All,\" not in \"Since Last Week,\" and not in \"New.\" Whatever can it be?"}, {"response": 89, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (00:20)", "body": "Susan, I am doing some other maintenance right now, but as soon as I am finished I will check it out. The Firth topic in drool -- right?"}, {"response": 90, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "Yes, Amy, and I found that if I go in with another name (same password), I can have him! So I must have killed that thread on my original bookmark -- is there any way to get it back? I think I was trying to copy a picture from there yesterday, and got a Transfer Interrupted! message -- would that do it?"}, {"response": 91, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (00:33)", "body": "I think I was trying to copy a picture from there yesterday, and got a Transfer Interrupted! message -- would that do it? No, that could just mark everything in the topic as already seen - but accidentally clicking the \"forget\" button would make it not appear in your list of topics at all unless you use the \"remember\" button to retrieve it."}, {"response": 92, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (01:25)", "body": "] I think I was trying to copy a picture from there yesterday, and got a Transfer Interrupted! message -- would that do it? No, that could just mark everything in the topic as already seen - but accidentally clicking the \"forget\" button would make it not appear in your list of topics at all unless you use the \"remember\" button to retrieve it. __ As Cheryl would say, \"Yeah, right. What she said.\""}, {"response": 93, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (02:55)", "body": "Cheryl's quote is so valuable, for chat and other places, I thought it needed a picture."}, {"response": 94, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (03:07)", "body": "Good thought - but maybe it should say \"what s/he said\"? Sometimes the guys say things worth agreeing with, too. ;-)"}, {"response": 95, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (03:08)", "body": "Good thought - but maybe it should say \"what s/he said\"? Sometimes the guys say things worth agreeing with, too. ;-)"}, {"response": 96, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (03:10)", "body": "(((stupid reload button should not repost!!!)))"}, {"response": 97, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (03:30)", "body": "As I said in chat, Joan, it happens so rarely that guys have anything worthwhile to say, it did not seem work the grammatical awkwardness."}, {"response": 98, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (03:39)", "body": "not seem work the grammatical awkwardness. __ not seem worth"}, {"response": 99, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (06:46)", "body": "Susan - If you click the 'Forgotten' button on the top of your conference menu, you will see any topics you have inadvertently 'forgotten'. You can then open up the topic and you wil see a \"Remember\" button at the top. This will re-activate it for you."}, {"response": 100, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (07:34)", "body": "The barton.spring.com machine was down but I went and fixed it last night. I got an email from beverly, a new user, who says that she couldn't post a new topic (Kevin Costner) in 'drool'. Amy, are topics only postable by members or hosts in 'drool'."}, {"response": 101, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (08:45)", "body": "Thanks for all of the suggestions, but none of them seem to work. (I must have done something really bad!) When I press the \"Forget\" button, I get a Server Error message, so that can't help me. Anyway, I thank you all for the kind words -- I can still get to him by signing on under a different name, and I may have to be satisfied with that."}, {"response": 102, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (11:02)", "body": "This Oldiznu thing has to be the single more infuriating software bug I've ever been so unfortunate to have my time stolen from. Is it my imagination or is is getting more frequent? Cheryl reported two occurances recently now I've been hit after having been stricken only 10 days ago. I hate this."}, {"response": 103, "author": "churchh", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (12:05)", "body": "Amy -- Re: your gender-biased graphic in message 93:"}, {"response": 104, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (12:45)", "body": "Hey Amy, first the business card, now this, I'm touched, words fail...I'll let Joan fill in the rest, then I can use my handy, dandy new gif!"}, {"response": 105, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (13:47)", "body": "Henry, when you say something or show something in here it is almost always something worth taking a look at. But the picture is mostly for chat. And look, you have to admit that chat is another matter. Much as we all of us think you and Ian are darlings for putting up with our abuse, you must allow that we don't often trip over each other to be the first to say, \"Oh yes! I agree with you, Henry!\" And if we did, what fun would that be?"}, {"response": 106, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:11)", "body": "This is too much! I have now been stricken with Old Is New for the second time in three days!! First Sunday night, now NOW! How shall I bear all this frustration?"}, {"response": 107, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:17)", "body": "Oh my dear Anne! Please allow me to condole with you for I know exactly how you feel! You are indeed most grievously to be pitied and you have my deepest sympathies in your time of trial. (Try the all/since/-1 aid that many have recommended and it will pass more quickly.) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 172, "subject": "Best of Chat", "response_count": 42, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (22:07)", "body": "Last few days of messages from the archived topic: __ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 221 of 241: Kathleen Grant (Kaffeine) * Mon, Feb 3, 1997 (10:38) * 5 lines Margaret - Since its just a test site, the odds were that you wouldn't find anyone there. It IS good to know, however, that you AOLers can get into it! Now all I need to do is find a similar program that will allow for speaking in more than short sentences, so that we can ALL get together!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 222 of 241: Bernie Parkin (bernie) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (05:28) * 3 lines Kaff, here's an interesting pronblem. I just went over to see the temporary chat room and all I get is a blank black page and a message, which says \"Applet can't srart; class JavaTalkClient not found\". I'm using Netscape Gold 3 with an ethernet connection ot the Internet. PS Sorry about the spellings, but editing in a shell account is still an awful lot of hassle :( ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 223 of 241: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (15:16) * 1 lines I got a \"connection not made\" error when I tried to connect... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 224 of 241: The Mysterious H.C.Henry (churchh) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (15:17) * 1 lines ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 225 of 241: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (15:22) * 26 lines Here's some impromptu ad hoc imprecations and poetry, devised on the occasion of finding oneself alone in the chat room: From: Ann2 at 2/2/97 5:15 PM Forever empty is this room, why is it so? Wrong choice of time I do assume, I grieve hoho... From: Grace at 2/4/97 3:27 PM Everyone goes out the door... I am left alone once more! It is a condition I deplore. From: Grace at 1/25/97 10:41 AM Amy, Henry, Ian et al.... I am now channeling all my wishes and thoughts to you in hopes of persuading you cosmically to now appear here..... From: Ann2 at 2/2/97 3:26 PM Oh no, not again... those walls however elegantly covered with tapisseries and paintings, echo the sound of my lonely thoughts... Oh where are the friends that once I knew? Where have they gone? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 226 of 241: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (15:35) * 2 lines Oh how sad! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 227 of 241: Kathleen Grant (Kaffeine) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (20:25) * 5 lines That's wonderful - graffiti in the chat room!! If you have your towel, click here! (wav file) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 228 of 241: Susan Christie (Susan) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (20:43) * 4 lines I tried to go into A Place to Practice HTML under this new configuration and got a Server Error message (I was able to get in before). Help? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 229 of 241: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (20:56) * 1 lines Kaff - connections to the PCR seem to have ground to a complete halt - is there something happening in your part of the world interfering with connection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 230 of 241: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:01) * 1 lines Kaff, Netscape said that the .wav file was \"invalid\"??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 231 of 241: kathleen (elder) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:13) * 1 lines Joan, too -- I was able to access Kaff's .wav file, using Netscape. Local server problem? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 232 of 241: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:20) * 3 lines Just tried it again - Netscape (3.0, Mac) does not seem to like it. The PRC has not accepted a connection for almost an hour now... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Response 233 of 241: Johanne (JohanneD) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:22) * 3 lines \" So long.... and thanks for all the fish\" :) all I need to hear now is Wallace to say \" Cheeeeeze, Gromit, we need some more Cheeeeeeezzzzzeeeee\" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 18 of 171 [austen]: Best of chat Resp"}, {"response": 2, "author": "geekman", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (02:25)", "body": "And thanks Slartibartfast! From the one of the other Arthurs. Arthurian"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (19:25)", "body": "Here is Becky's lovely graduation picture: Shortly, I will be setting up a Rogue's Gallery for anyone who wishes to post their picture on the web (this includes group get-togethers - Candace, where is our pic?!!!)...Anybody with a scanner can just pop the image up here in th Chat topic, and I'll take care of it from there. If you don't have access to a scanner, e-mail me and we can arrange for you to send a photo to me..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (20:36)", "body": "I see what you're doing, Kali. Get back to that thesis."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (01:49)", "body": "Myretta: I see what you're doing, Kali. Get back to that thesis. Such a Mom! ;-)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (01:50)", "body": "Sorry, but I still mean it...;)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "geekman", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (02:47)", "body": "Ahem Kali, I certainly appreciate your efforts regarding the Rogue's Gallery, and it is lovely to put a face to a name, but did the lady in question give you her permission to post her image here ? ;-) Just being picky, sweet Emma ! ;-)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (04:36)", "body": "She did..."}, {"response": 9, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "Thanks Kali for making tangible what I wanted to do for such a long time (but have'nt learned yet all the ropes)"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (11:29)", "body": "Maybe you two could work together on it?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (19:09)", "body": "Fer shure!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (19:12)", "body": "FER Shure! AWWWWW!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (00:06)", "body": ":)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (16:50)", "body": "This is just a totally irrelevant thought that struck me the other day which would not be of interest to anyone except Austen fans (and constitutional lawyers, of which I am one) There is this really important American case, which you well-educated Americans may have heard of called Dred Scott v. Sanford. It was pre-Civil War, and decided (terribly) (1.) that African-Americans were not and could not be citizens of this great country and (2) that the Missouri Compromise was illegal. Anyway, the Dred Scott who brought the case (he was a slave, arguing that he had been made free by travelling into a free state and territory) was married to a woman named Harriet. They had two daughters, called Eliza and Lizzy. As soon as I read this I thought \"I wonder if she had ever read any Austen?\" What a one-track mind."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (17:35)", "body": "I did not know that about Scott's daughters, Kate. Thanks. Actually I was married in the old St. Louis courthouse where the case was tried. Hadn't been a courthouse for years."}, {"response": 16, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (16:01)", "body": "]Maybe you two could work together on it? Will be happy too"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (05:08)", "body": "Cool, johanne...e-mail me with your ideas...I was thinking something VERY simple..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (22:21)", "body": "http://www.spring.com/~mhc/achtzzzm.html"}, {"response": 19, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (02:13)", "body": "Thank you Henry!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (15:50)", "body": "Here are two new smileys for people. They mive! You don't have to do anything differently than you would with regular gifs: <img src=\" http://www.spring.com/~anneh/loadlove.gif\"> ; = and <img src=\" http://www.spring.com/~anneh/demismile.gif\"> ; ="}, {"response": 21, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (16:06)", "body": "Thanks, Ann -- whatever happened with your Jeep and your job? You left us hanging!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (16:31)", "body": "Susan, neither are resolved yet."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (17:42)", "body": "Cute idea, Ann."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (23:26)", "body": "CHAT LOG - AUSTEN IN BOSTON REPORT From: Caroline at 2/23/97 8:58 PM Hello Myretta! How was your afternoon? From: Myrettaat 2/23/97 9:00 PM Hi everyone. Our afternoon was wonderful! Arnessa should be joining us soon. We wanted to report back on our tea. From: Amy at 2/23/97 9:01 PM Hi ladies. Tell, tell, Myretta. Did you giggle too much for the Ritz? From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:01 PM OK. I'll start. I saw the log from last night and I know that you guys want DETAILS. From: Anna (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:01 PM ] We wanted to report back on our tea. please do! I'm glad it went well! From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:02 PM We giggled just the right amount for the Ritz and the waiter offered to take our picture. From: Anna (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:03 PM ] I know that you guys want DETAILS. yeah, show us how it's done ;-) From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:03 PM Arnessa, Jane, Johanne, Laura, Celia, Paula and I all met at 3:00 at the Ritz Carlton and were seated at the table reserved for Austen. Introductions to all who had not met. Then we launched right into an Emma discussion. From: Anna (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:04 PM ] the waiter offered to take our picture. goodie! I hope you intend to post a copy... From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:04 PM Laura, Celia and Paula arrived a little after the first four and immediately shifted the conversation to actors - particularly Rupert Graves (if you know what I mean) From: Arnessa (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:05 PM Automatic Message: Arnessa Joined Chat Room From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:05 PM Hi Arnessa. I was just beginning the narrative. Please jump in. We took pictures during tea, but opted to go out by the pond in the Public Garden for the group Pic From: Caroline (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:06 PM [particularly Rupert Graves (if you know what I mean) I can imagine. Did you learn anything new about him that you wish to pass on? From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:06 PM We talked about what we all did and learned that Paula Lovejoy is the webmaster for the ZD-Net Page. From: Anna (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:07 PM hi Arnessa. ]out by the pond water Myretta? where's Cheryl??? From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:07 PM ] I can imagine. Did you learn anything new about him that you wish to pass on? No Of course, water. Since there was water in the pond, we decided not to wet down the doorman. From: Caroline (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:08 PM And did you get any big surprises once you met all these people? From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:10 PM ] And did you get any big surprises once you met all these people? I know I always form visual impressions when I start talking to people, but once I've met them, that is no longer operative. None of them were a great surprise. Johanne's spoken English is as good as her written, by the way. From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:11 PM Arnessa is writing about this, so perhaps she should tell you her impressions. From: Arnessa (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:12 PM It was a delightful tea. We laughed a lot. We talked about P&P, everyone was so pleasant, just what you might expect from our group. From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:13 PM Shall I continue, then? We talked a lot about our community and how we all came to it.... I sent your love, Amy and a *samooch* from you know who... Jane's husband is from the UK so she goes back to visit often. And visited Lyme last year...Jane, Laura and Johanne all have young daughters, 6, 2 1/2 and 3 1/2. Laura and Johanne had pictures. From: Amy (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:19 PM Did Laura try to make you watch anything? ;) From: Arnessa (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:19 PM I was surprised a little at how normal it all seemed, like we'd known each other for ages. There was very little awkwardness. We almost forgot that we actually knew very little about one other. We were well into the middle of the tea before Laura remembered to show us the pics of her little girl, and we got around to asking what everyone did. (and found out that Paula works for ZD-Net) From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:20 PM I took individual pictures at the table and some of the food.(which, by the way, was delightful). There was a harpist. The environment couldn't have been better From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:22 PM Arnessa is quite right. It didn't feel much like a first meeting. And we agreed we need to do it again soon. From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:21 PM ] Did Laura try to make you watch anything? ;) Laura tried to make us watch everything she'd seen recently. From: Arnessa (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:22 PM Yes, the harpist was lovely. I thought of Mary Crawford and her harp. It was you, Amy, was it not, who first mentioned JA's prejudice against harps? From: Myretta (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:23 PM We did think about throwing a passing roller-blader in the pond for effect, but decided against it. From: Amy (New Msg) at 2/23/97 9:24 PM Yup, that would be me, Arnessa. I'll tell you more sometime how the harp and card playing theory relate"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (00:14)", "body": "*sigh* How wonderful! I'm so envious! :-)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (03:39)", "body": "So am I!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "summit", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (08:34)", "body": "If Only They Knew Rupert Hinslow, doorman at the Ritz, arrived at work after a tormented night of of fending off the calls of his ex-girlfriend (whom he had nicknamed CyberMoll when he learned firsthand her habit of daily credit card bingeing at CyberShop) and working on chapter 16 of his Austen sequel to S&S, What Love Has Learned . Disillusioned with modern women's illiterate and shallow ways, Rupert expected no further happiness from them and certainly gave none, having become a bit morose and defensive in their eal world presence and only allowing himself to be captivated with them in his novel. He was therefore caught offguard when a number of pleasant ladies passed him, giving him a quietly approving look and murmuring about their upcoming Jane Austen gathering inside the Ritz. Despite his training to be the perfect doorman - handsome, attentive, and quietly alert - he found his mind attempting to discover a reason for leaving his post and joining these kindred spirits in a scintillating discussion of his beloved author. Moreover, in that instant of passing his masculine sensor had detected a quaint and barely smothered feminine arousal under their Austenlike semi-austere, semi-provocative garments that threatened to obliterate his recent carefully constructed barrier of distrust and disinterest in women... The waiter, a more worldly fellow and yet a friend, surreptitiously reported to Rupert that several of the Austen party had been commenting on his attractions and their whimsical desire to see him wet, like someone named Darcy, by throwing him in the pond nearby. Having seen many times the A&E production of P&P, Rupert instantly knew the sensuous and emotional import of the remark, and despite his continued outward composure found himself desiring to dive in of his own accord, taking at least one of the ladies with him and... But the moment passed. Habit, reason, and a little more melancholy resumed their grip on him, and Rupert Hinslow stoically watched them depart. That night he added some new characters to his story, however, and decided on a different ending."}, {"response": 28, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (10:18)", "body": "Wendy, It's almost like you were there. Thanks for letting us know what he was thinking."}, {"response": 29, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Hey, I'm going to combine the Fanny Price theme and the science fiction theme, (see the posting by Lura R. in last Friday night's AUSTEN-L digest -- I think I'll post it over in Ramble), so that the title of my novel will be \"Fanny Price, Galactic Empress\" !!! (Just kidding -- I think...)"}, {"response": 30, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (17:18)", "body": "Henry, this is going to be fantastic. Fanny takes on obnoxious aliens at planet mansfield and defeats them single - handedly. Coudl someone copy the Lura (or is that meant to be Laura) posting over here so non-AustenL types can read it? It sounds _excellent_"}, {"response": 31, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (18:13)", "body": "Henry, what a marvelous idea (even if inspired by team writing gone awry)! Be sure to share it w/ us, chapter by chapter. ;-) Boston Austenites -- what a super wonderful time it sounds. I should have liked to be there."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (23:35)", "body": "H.C., since you have evinced yourself to be a fan of Heinlein, I am waiting in anxious anticipation!;-)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "churchh", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:12)", "body": "Actually, though I read and have read a fair amount of science fiction old and new, I am NOT particularly a fan of Heinlein... I tend more towards Cordwainer Smith, Lois McMaster Bujold, Lord Dunsany, Zenna Henderson, and some of Ursula K. Leguin, Anne McCaffrey, and Andre Norton (these last three somewhat erratic in quality)... As for the classic \"great masters\" of Science Fiction, I read a lot of Asimov in my youth, but don't reread his works much now, I like some Clarke stuff (especially the second version of The City and the Stars ) but am not a fervent fan, and never saw much in Heinlein or Bradbury to start with..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:33)", "body": "this may be just what I need to justify to my DH. He keeps asking \"when do we get to the car chase?\""}, {"response": 35, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:37)", "body": "Designated hitter?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:51)", "body": "dearest husband, tho' that might be interesting to contemplate at times"}, {"response": 37, "author": "churchh", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:54)", "body": "I hope your dearest husband is not your designated hitter, Cindy! ;-) Have you shown your husband the \"team writing assignment\" that I posted over in the Ramble topic (from Lura Raplee's posting to AUSTEN-L)?"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:56)", "body": "Again, not funny, Henry."}, {"response": 39, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (01:05)", "body": "HC, I have not for he's snoring on the couch at this writing"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (22:15)", "body": "] I am NOT particularly a fan of Heinlein... Nor am I, HC, but was always particularly taken with his idea that all literary characters live in universes parallel to ours. I did not mean to (and certainly hope I did not) imply that you were 'taken' with those of his tales where morality is decidedly lacking. As for supposing that you were a fan, I halfway remember seeing a reference to a \"fair witness\" on one of these threads, thought it came from you, and leaped to a hasty and erroneous conclusion. Oops. Sorry."}, {"response": 41, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:18)", "body": "HC, there is no hitting going on, only LOTS of tag-team parenting (I'll drop him off at basketball practice on my way to rehearsal if you'll pick him up after her dance class lets out and meet you back at home in time to crach and do it all again tomorrow) DH read the story just now - I'm not shure just what level, but it was definitely LOL. I think he thinks there's hope for JA, yet! Thx for the chuckles"}, {"response": 42, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:19)", "body": "that's \"crash\" I'm not sure what crach might be austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 175, "subject": "Sign in newcomers, if you like (Was, Introduce yourself, Austen person)", "response_count": 111, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (23:15)", "body": "Latest introductions: ____ Topic 2 of 174 [austen]: introduce yourself, Austen person Response 292 of 294: ednaw (ednaw) * Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (03:42) * 2 lines I am glad to descover this location, being the only P&P2 addict some what lonely. I have enjoiyed reading all the comments. ednaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 2 of 174 [austen]: introduce yourself, Austen person Response 293 of 294: Amy (Amy) * Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (08:48) * 1 lines Hi Ednaw, and welcome. I saw you try to come into chat yesterday. Try again sometime. What was the trouble? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 2 of 174 [austen]: introduce yourself, Austen person Response 294 of 294: Melanie (Melanie) * Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (10:43) * 1 lines"}, {"response": 2, "author": "brad", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (10:59)", "body": "Hi! I'm a 40+ male who lives just outside Portland Me. with my wife and 17 year old daughter. Was forced into a career change a few years ago so I went back to school and am now a registered nurse. I had read all Jane's books but it wasn't until the recent movies and TV productions came out that I became a fanatic (my wife claims this is another one of my \"binges\" and wont last). While surfing the internet for all things pertaining to Jane Austen, I discovered this delightful forum. The computer I am using is not mine and will not be available to me after September so my time here may be limited. If I have to leave I hope it will only be for a short duration because I really enjoy reading your comments. Hey, how come there is no Lizzie Bennet drool section- she beats Darcy anyday!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:04)", "body": "Welcome Brad. For research purposes, what have been some of your other binges? There are patterns. Actually there is a Lizzy topic begun by a little boy, I think it is called hubba hubba something. Or something hubba hubba. Hit \"All\" and it will show up. Maybe you can lend the thread some dignity."}, {"response": 4, "author": "brad", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (13:14)", "body": "OK Amy, here's some of my \"binges\" over the years- not in the order they occured. Photography, gardening, karate, guitar playing, violin playing, comic book collecting, weight lifting, movie taping, \"classic\" literature reading, car repair, opera, folk music, wood cutting and splitting, golf, computer games Those are the main ones and there are probably others that I'm not remembering right now. My wife bears up pretty well. She smiles and wonders how much the current fad is going to cost. She has tried to interest me in some other areas like home repair, ironing, etc. but so far none of these have taken hold. Don't know if these fit into a pattern, Amy what kind of patterns were you referring to.----Brad"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (14:12)", "body": "] Don't know if these fit into a pattern, Amy what kind of patterns were you referring to.----Brad __ Well, it does show the charming and requisite obsessivenss. Thanks for asking; this is helping me formulate my questionnaire. I guess what I am after more is tastes: in movies, books etc."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:02)", "body": "Brad, I thought once one was obsessed with golf, they never got over it. Did you manage to escape? Did you quit cold turkey or did you use a patch of grass from your favorite green?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "ValGal17", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "Hi! I'm new here - and can't wait to get started. I am a 17 year old, highschool senior, Austen fanatic, Firth fanatic, living in Maryland. Some of my other intrests include politics, \"classic\" books by various authors, the genealogy of my family, etc. I hope to become better aquainted with other P&P2 fanatics also. I am embaressed to admit how many times I have watched it in it's entirity. Anyways, my e-mail address is ValGal17@aol.com I hope to hear from you. -Val"}, {"response": 8, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:17)", "body": "I am embaressed to admit how many times I have watched it in it's entirity. Hi Val. This is one place where you won't have to be embarrassed."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (20:56)", "body": "Val, I stopped counting after 50! ;-) You have come to the right place!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (21:14)", "body": "Actually, would naming a Blenheim colored Cavalier King Charles Spaniel \"Darcy\" qualify as a fanatic? I finally read P&P about 10 years ago! It was/is so wonderful I laugh out loud. I dragged my husband to a TINY movie house to see EMMA and he said it wasn't bad haha. Wish I had more time - I think Austen and others are better when I understand the history of the times. But I think I'm receiving P&P2 on tape for Valentines. Can't wait! In order to get my 3yr old to nap, sometimes I make him watch my tape! It works and I leave the tape in - what a great break! My learned neighbor, or so he thinks attributed P&P to Dickens, and when I ever so gently corrected him, he asked if I was sure!!! See y'all around...Thanks Amy"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (10:10)", "body": "Brad and Valerie...welcome! Brad, may I commend you on your recent choice of addiction...I hope you enjoy it as much as I have...I have delighted in many a good conversation...and as you will see, there is much humor to behold and many talented people here... Valerie...Bravo to you...I wish I could get my 15 year old to enjoy Jane Austen...she moans every time I put it into the VCR...which I might add is several times a week...feel comfortable here about your choice of viewing pleasure! I also was delighted to find fellow addicts here... I look forward to conversing with both of you!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "ValGal17", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (17:27)", "body": "Thanks for making me feel so welcome! I have seen AUSTEN-L, and JASNA mentioned a lot what are they? Also, I can't seem to get into one of the JA live chat rooms. Any tips? Hope to talk to you all soon. Val"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (17:38)", "body": "Val - Re: Chat room. Do you access the internet from AOL or Prodigy? What browser do you use? Do you get an error message when you try to access it? If so, what is the message?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (22:38)", "body": "Val you can find info on the Jane Austen Society of North America and about the AUSTEN-L email discussion list at Henry's Jane Austen Information Page: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janeinfo.html"}, {"response": 15, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (13:53)", "body": "Yes, the JASNA page is http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janausoc.html and the AUSTEN-L page http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/austen-l.html"}, {"response": 16, "author": "sld", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (19:52)", "body": "[Hey, how come there is no Lizzie Bennet drool section- she beats Darcy anyday!] Brad, I think Terry has set up a male drool at the Drool Conference."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (20:18)", "body": "Yuck, forget what I said a few days ago. But I did name our puppy Darcy, his dad is from England. Ive always loved history, which is why I enjoy reading about the times as much as the books, and watching the movies. Loved EMMA the 2 hour version, can't wait to see the A&E version this weekend, Ive already unwrapped the tape, and got it labeled! Ive noticed, I sometimes think of these characters as people down the street. Now that's weird. or is it?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (16:21)", "body": "Ive noticed, I sometimes think of these characters as people down the street. Now that's weird. or is it? Not weird at all, Anne. A very normal sign of your/my/everyone else's addiction, I assure you!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "Hi, I'm Kate. I'm Australian, but I live in New York at the moment - I'm a grad student. Have been a total P&P addict since I read it in school about 15 years ago, liked the first BBC series, absolutely addicted to the second. In Australia it was shown in fifty minute weekly episodes - after two weeks I had to go out and buy the video. Unfortunately my copy of the video is at home, but I brought my copy of the novel with me -couldn't survive without it for a year. I'm very pleased to have found this site - especially all the fanfiction Will pass on the address to fellow Aussie Austen addicts."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (21:52)", "body": "Welcome, Kate. We have a great Australian contingent here, who are even going to have a gathering next weekend. You should check them out in chat. What are you studying, where?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (09:31)", "body": "Law, NYU"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (09:44)", "body": "Oh, good, Kate. Kali will want to talk to you. She's a senior at Berkeley and waiting for acceptance letters, but a good student so it is only a matter of closing her eyes and pointing. Glad you did not have any trouble getting into drool."}, {"response": 23, "author": "ValGal17", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (00:53)", "body": "I still cannot get into the Live Pemberly Chat room. I use AOL. Each time i try to get in , the message \"cannot retreive\" appears on my screen. Any more tips? thanks, Val"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (01:26)", "body": "Val, it looks like a lost cause for AOL accounts to use the drawing room Kaf, who runs the chat, is checking out other possibilities so more people can participate, but so far she has not found one that suits the regulars."}, {"response": 25, "author": "mishmc", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (15:27)", "body": "I am a 27 year old from New Jersey happy to find others similarly afflicted. I first read P&P 10 years ago and have been a Janeite ever since. When not watching/reading Jane Austen-related material, I love listening to music (Beatles,Ella Fitzgerald,Beck), playing the guitar(a little & ill indeed!) & singing(a little better), reading everything in sight, and fooling around on the computer. I love to hear what others think of various adaptations!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (15:45)", "body": "Michele, sorry you couldn't stay any longer at the Pemberley Drawing Room! Please do stop by again!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "mishmc", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (15:59)", "body": "I received an \"illegal operation\" message which shut down my connection. I'm quite sure you're not doing anything illicit over there, so I can't imagine what my computer was talking about! Anyway, I will try again. Thanks for being so friendly. Everybody here seems so nice (in New Jersey we just grunt at each other)!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (17:32)", "body": "I am happy you found us, Michele."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "Hi! I'm Andrea. I live in Oregon. Married for almost 9 years to Tim. We have a son, Spencer, whom we adopted 2 years ago. I teach science at the local high school. I thought I was the only person on earth addicted to this adaptation, so much that I practically wore out my first tape. It's nice to know there are more of us out there! I may be ignorant of some of the information so many of you seem to know, so forgive me if I ask redundant questions!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (00:01)", "body": "Andrea, join the club--I did wear out my first tape! What subjects do you teach?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (00:48)", "body": "Glad to see you made it in, Andrea. Hope to see you again in chat."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (01:19)", "body": "Andrea, you made it! I'm so pleased. Hope to see you again in Pemberley soon."}, {"response": 33, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (08:15)", "body": "I have a question, Amy. How do I find out about the Australian cyber-meeting next Saturday? Could someone let me know what time it will be and I will try to stay awake here in New York. It would be good to hear some local goss."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (08:37)", "body": "Kate, they are actually meeting in real life. They'll be online at about 5:30 pm eastern in the drawing room just to say hi to us and make us jealous that they get to see each other. If you want to catch them in chat at other times, Hil tends to be there for morning coffee, about 2:30 pm EST and sometimes again late 10:30 pm -12 midnight. Anna chats from work and is typically on in the late evening hours, in and out. Ian is on vacation right now but maybe found in the drawing room very early, 7ish am and sometimes later. And on the weekends he talks all night. There are others, but not so regularly in chat."}, {"response": 35, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (08:57)", "body": "Thanks Amy. By the way, when I go into chat I can get into the CF room and the JN room but not the drawing room. Is this just me, or am I doing something wrong?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (09:03)", "body": "I can't think of any reason that should be, Kate. Unless you are just not being patient enough. Sometimes the door sticks when there are a lot of people inside."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (21:22)", "body": "Thanks for the welcome! Anne, I teach science to freshmen (14 year olds). Today was a day where I could have \"gone postal\" (as my friend puts it), if I'd had access to an automatic weapon. Just for one class though, so all in all the day was a winner!"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "Thanks for the welcome! Anne, I teach science to freshmen (14 year olds). Today was a day where I could have \"gone postal\" (as my friend puts it), if I'd had access to an automatic weapon. Just for one class though, so all in all the day was a winner!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (09:19)", "body": "Hello - I'm Lynn. I have really been enjoying my time here - I was so glad to know I was not alone in my addiction to P&P2!! My husband Jonathan is VERY patient and understanding!! There ARE worse habits!! I think that all the topics are fun, and it's great to analyze everything and see that other people feel the same way. I've been bragging to my JA friends at work that I found this spot (I work in a library)! I love to read, and could reread JA a million times. I too had trouble in chat - I seemed to get in, but I couln't see the actual chat, only who had come in and who had left. Am I doing something wrong?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (09:43)", "body": "Welcome, Lynn. ] I seemed to get in, but I couln't see the actual chat, only who had come in and who had left. __ What you saw would be the result of hitting the \"view occupants\" button, so yes, you must have been in. But you should have seen the chat messages further down. Try again, and hit \"new messages\" every minute or so to see what has just been posted, if anything."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (10:28)", "body": "You may also want to increase the number of viewed messages (I use 20). It may also be that you logged on at times when no one was home."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (18:00)", "body": "I agree with Ann - if all you saw was messages about who has come and gone, you were probably alone in the room. If you're in the US, evenings around 9 or 10pm Eastern are usually a good time to find others there."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (18:29)", "body": "Welcome Lynn! I think we all must have pretty understanding husbands/significant others. Mine even got me Sense and Sensibility for Valentine's Day."}, {"response": 44, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (21:15)", "body": "Hi, I just found this topic after having found the whole area about 1 1/2 weeks ago. My husband has been telling me for a couple of years that I would eventually find plenty of stuff surfing that would keep me occupied. By now he probably wishes I'd never searched on Austen! I've been married for 11 years, have a son (10) and a daughter (6). She's my JA buddy which is why I have to keep pausing during viewings (\"what did they say?\"). She has a brilliant, fanatical future ahead of her! I work as a financial analyst (prob'ly contribting to my JA/Romance obsession) at a pretty big insurance company in San Antonio, and was psyched to see somebody say \"y'all\" up above."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (21:40)", "body": "Welcome, officially, Cindy. Does your daughter love Lydia as my little guy does?"}, {"response": 46, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (21:47)", "body": "No, my Melissa is more inclined to appreciate Jane's sweetness. My son even grudgingly sat through a Sunday afternoon marathon, but found himself participating in my fanaticism. \"Does she EVER shut up?\" \"Look (the post-wedding) - he's SMILING! But he never smiles!\" He was even the one that urged Melissa to get her bath early on Sun PM, to make sure they wouldn't miss any of Emma. However, it didn't work its magic on them, either, they wound up playing with their stuffed animals instead of watching!"}, {"response": 47, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (21:47)", "body": "No, my Melissa is more inclined to appreciate Jane's sweetness. My son even grudgingly sat through a Sunday afternoon P&P2 marathon, but found himself participating in my fanaticism. \"Does she EVER shut up?\" \"Look (the post-wedding) - he's SMILING! But he never smiles!\" He was even the one that urged Melissa to get her bath early on Sun PM, to make sure they wouldn't miss any of Emma. However, it didn't work its magic on them, either, they wound up playing with their stuffed animals instead of watching!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (21:47)", "body": "oops"}, {"response": 49, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (23:15)", "body": "Hi, Cindy, and welcome. My brother use to live in Alamo Heights. (They are in New Braunfels, now, though.)"}, {"response": 50, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (17:07)", "body": "Thank you, Amy, Ann and Kathleen. I did get in, shortly after I posted that message, but had to go to work (which meant I had to stop the PP2 tape I was watching while here) so I didn't have a chance to come back to tell you I was successful. Andrea, my husband got me Persuasion for my birthday in January! I have PP2 taped from A&E, but borrowed the six volume set. When I saw the extra scenes, I was wishing I could justify the $100 for the set, and he volunteered to get it for \"us\" for our anniversary!!!! Now that's love!!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (21:00)", "body": "LynnMarie-Do you have a Costco where you are? I got my six tape set there, for only $60!!!!!!!!!!! Hope you got my e-mail too! (I want Persuasion for our anniversary! That will be in June! Can i wait that long? Perish the thought!)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (21:13)", "body": "My $60 Christmas gift was from BestBuy, I think. Sharon, where are you?"}, {"response": 53, "author": "sld", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (22:58)", "body": "Houston"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (13:01)", "body": "Lynn Marie - he volunteered to get it for \"us\" for our anniversary!!!! Now that's love!! Happy thought, indeed!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "lindal", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (16:44)", "body": "Greetings! I've been lurking here for several weeks and greatly enjoying the writings, discussions, and of course the Darcy threads. I live in Oakhurst CA (just south of Yosemite) and work at Sierra On-Line as the art director on an internet game called The Realm. Check it out at http://www.realmserver.com I've been an Austen fan since college--I can even remember what I was thinking when I first read about Darcy meeting Elizabeth when she was walking at Rosings! And that was _years_ ago. I look forward to many more pleasant visits."}, {"response": 56, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (17:08)", "body": "]-I can even remember what I was thinking when I first read about Darcy meeting Elizabeth when she was walking at Rosings! Linda, don't tease. What were you thinking?"}, {"response": 57, "author": "lindal", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (19:00)", "body": "What was I thinking??? Why, that Darcy must like walking as much as Elizabeth! AND--How can she be so dense!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (23:13)", "body": "Hi Linda, and welcome. My kids have some Sierra games. Cool job!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (19:12)", "body": "Tried an introduction yesterday and after submitting, it showed an error.. so here I go again. Have been a Jane Austen fan since 13 yrs old and have purchased all her books and video adaptations released. I'm usually loyal to each and every Austen's \"hero\" for the duration of the book/video but JN's Knightley has quite become an obsession. (exception being S&S with the milder sort hero - not being quite my thing) I'm trilled to have found the drool page and various others since I can relate to the ordinarily sensible women ...now completely and uncontrollably insane!! What do you think..Is there really life after JN's Knightley and Firth's Darcy??"}, {"response": 60, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (19:51)", "body": "Welcome Serena. Give over to the insanity. It feels pretty good."}, {"response": 61, "author": "janea", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (10:13)", "body": "Hi, my name is Jane (no, I\ufffdm not named after Austen) and I\ufffdve been reading Jane Austen\ufffds books since I was in my teens. Of course I love P&P2 (otherwise, I wouldn\ufffdt be writing this) and even though Emma is my favourite novel, P&P2 is my favourite among the adaptations. I\ufffdm glad I found all you folks out there! None of my friends like neither Jane Austen, nor P&P. They don\ufffdt even like Darcy, can you imagine!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (10:25)", "body": "] They don\ufffdt even like Darcy, can you imagine! __ Impossible how stupid real life friends can be in these important matters. That's why we are here. Welcome, Jane. Want to be JaneA? We have a Jane already."}, {"response": 63, "author": "janea", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (10:37)", "body": "JaneA is OK with me. And thanks for the welcome."}, {"response": 64, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (11:09)", "body": "Jane, welcome! I see you're from Sweden? We have several Swedish folks here, happy to welcome another!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "mich", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (13:55)", "body": "[Is there really life after JN's Knightley and Firth's Darcy??] Good point Serena, will any mortal man ever meet our now heightened expectations."}, {"response": 66, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:12)", "body": "Did any meet our expectations before they were heightened?"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Nadine", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:16)", "body": "Hi all, Its cool to see what people feel on here. I love P&P and most of all Firth played a wonderful part as Darcy. I just now started to read the book, for insights as well I myself am in the process of trying to become an author."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (02:56)", "body": "Welcome, Tammy. As you can see there is more than one writer of fiction here."}, {"response": 69, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (10:32)", "body": "For some of you new in the Conference...I had a great deal of trouble getting into the chat area...took me two months to finally figure out that my server (prodigy) had a version of a browser that would not allow me in...for those of you who have win95...I set up a short cut that went into my server and use my own browser which I downloaded free...from Microsoft ...its the Microsoft Internet Explorer....I now go in and out freely.....hope it helps y'all from Prodigy and AOL"}, {"response": 70, "author": "circe", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (18:02)", "body": "Hello, everyone. I'm thrilled that I've found this site--sort of like finding an oasis in the desert. I'm a recent convert to Jane Austen. My Ph.D. will be in Renaissance English Literature. I HAD thought, how can you get more romantic than the Renaissance, for crying out loud? I have seen the light! I have been revelling in this Jane Austen film extravaganza. (Needless to say, I'm thrilled that there's a Shakespeare film bonanza going on, too!)"}, {"response": 71, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (22:04)", "body": "Happy to have you, Circe. Converts warm our hearts."}, {"response": 72, "author": "SYLVIA", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (18:56)", "body": "Hi everyone, my name is Sylvia and i'm and addict. I discovered Austen in high school and continued my obsession through the years. I'm now 30. Not only am i and addict but i'm and enabler. I got a co-worker, boss and boss' boss hooked. My husband doesn't get the obsession at all. My mother and sister are only mildly sympathetic. Thank God I have found you all."}, {"response": 73, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (19:06)", "body": "Sylvia -- this is indeed a most sympathetic, empathetic, and codependent group! They are some the most wonderful folk I have met. I am sure you will enjoy your time here at Spring immensely."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (19:39)", "body": "Yep, Sylvia. No more guilt! Welcome."}, {"response": 75, "author": "valen", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (14:42)", "body": "Hello! I am Valen Cox, and have been lurking quite obsessively for several weeks now. Yesterday (28 Feb) I turned 39, and decided to be brave and celebrate by joining in. Have been a bit shy thinking that =I shall be awkward to visit the place without a proper invitation,= but I witnessed many a brave soul who jumped in head first and who =get on= just swimmingly! And so thought, =I shall come directly= as well! =In essentials, I am very much the same as I always have been.= I have had the good fortune to live in such diverse locations from the Orient to continental Europe due both to my father\ufffds and husband\ufffds military careers\ufffdwe just returned stateside from a 2 year tour in Taegu, South Korea. Been married to Terry for 18 years, he\ufffdll soon pin on the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, and am the mother of 5 children adopted from around the world. I am a writer of science fiction/fantasy and historical romance, and am working my way towards submitting by summer next year. Even as a child, I\ufffdve always been drawn to love stories of depth and profundity. Austen\ufffds PRIDE AND PREJUDICE caught my attention when was I was barely 11, and it\ufffds most recent film adaptation P&P2, took my breath away. I will soon tell my poor story in the Drool Conference, =and thither also= I hope you shall come for =I should be very happy to make your acquaintance.= Ciao!"}, {"response": 76, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (15:07)", "body": "Glad you're speaking out, Valen. We'll see you in drool. I'll anxiously await hearing your opinions."}, {"response": 77, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (15:23)", "body": "Thanks for making yourself known Valen. I lurked for a long time before I made myself known, but once I did, I quickly became part of this community. You'll find it a welcoming environment."}, {"response": 78, "author": "Justagirl", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (16:02)", "body": "Hello everyone...this is my first time in a chat room. I gladly admit that I am an Austen addict."}, {"response": 79, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (16:24)", "body": "Hi Justagirl. Welcome. I saw you in the Drawing Room. When you go in there again, try hitting the \"New messages\" button so you can see, well, you know... new messages."}, {"response": 80, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "I think it's great that we have new blood -- I've only been around here for about two months myself."}, {"response": 81, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:17)", "body": "Happy birthday, Valen. And welcome!! Linda"}, {"response": 82, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:22)", "body": "Many Happy Returns, Valen, and I hope this is the start of a very good year for you."}, {"response": 83, "author": "valen", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:24)", "body": "Thank you all for such warm wishes for both my coming out and my birthday! Thirty-nine feels pretty darned good. Cannot begin to tell you all how impressed I've been with everyone here! And how many hours of enjoyment you've given me. Daily, I am renewed. I've posted my story in Drool under, what else, Colin Firth. Go to it man!"}, {"response": 84, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (00:15)", "body": "Valen, I don't suppose you watch Babylon 5? There is a character on that show named Valenn, who is something of a messiah figure."}, {"response": 85, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (00:40)", "body": "Justagirl: You a No Doubt fan?"}, {"response": 86, "author": "jennyha", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:53)", "body": "Hi, my name is Jenny. I have been reading many of your correspondents over a month and enjoyed very much. I am a Korean and English is of course not my first language. (So please forgive my poor English. After 12 years living in the States, I am still not comfortable writing in English.) The movie, S&S introduced me to Jane Austen and this conference. I have read only two Jane Austen books up to this point, though. (S&S which I did not like much and P&P which I loved it) I just borrowed P&P2 from he public library last weekend and watched all on saturday. OH, I loved it! I am a Biochemist and working in one of SUNY. I have a son who is 1.5 years old. It is hard to find time to get on the computer and to watch T.V. or video by myself, but I have managed to find time up to this point. Anyhow I am glad to find this site and I hope I can participate on many different subjects you are offering. (None of my friends and my husband are not a fan of Jane Austen unfortunately.) I like to babble, but have better stop here before too many people notice it."}, {"response": 87, "author": "jennyha", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:55)", "body": "I told you that my English is poor! I already found so many mistakes in my previous posting. I will try to edit one before I submit next time."}, {"response": 88, "author": "valen", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (16:14)", "body": "Hello Jennyha! My husband and I just returned from 2 years in South Korea. Where are you from? Glad to see you here!"}, {"response": 89, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (16:54)", "body": "Hi Jenny. Your English is fine. Please don't give it another thought. And welcome."}, {"response": 90, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (17:00)", "body": "Welcome Jenny! Your English is very good, please do not worry yourself over it. ;-) Glad to have you here."}, {"response": 91, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (17:20)", "body": "Another hello to you Jenny. You will find this a very nice (make that wonderful) group of people. And you will find that we all make spelling and grammar errors, so do not be concerned."}, {"response": 92, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (19:46)", "body": "Let me add my welcome, Jenny."}, {"response": 93, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (19:48)", "body": "Welcome, Jenny. Your English is very good - nothing to be ashamed of. And, believe me, we all make mistakes, especially lots of typos!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "candace", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "Hi, Jenny -- welcome to our little community...what I have experienced here is that everyone is very forgiving of typos, and all of us love to babble...so, please join in and make yourself at home."}, {"response": 95, "author": "jennyh", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "Thank you for all the welcome you gave me! I am originally from Seoul. After college, I came to the States to go to a graduate school. Now I am settled in NY with my understanding husband and a toddler. My husband urged me to join here after seeing how much I enjoyed Jane Austen's books, watching P&P2, and reading your comments here. He also found some places in a newsgroup discussing the adaptations of Austen's book this evening. Most of people in the newsgroup like P&P1 better, which was quite a shock to me. P&P1 was such a disappointment! Will anybody please let me know why the producer of P&P2 wanted to have Colin Firth to play Mr. Darcy? I cannot imagine anybody else playing Mr. Darcy. Colin Firth did such a wonderful job. I read that at first Firth did not want to be Mr. Darcy. Apparently Crispin Boham-Carter had to audition for the one of the role, and I wondered whether Firth had to do the same. Did the producer say anything about that in her book of Making of P&P2? Jenny"}, {"response": 96, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "You have come to the right place, Jen. Welcome"}, {"response": 97, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:15)", "body": "Welcome, Jenny."}, {"response": 98, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:34)", "body": "Welcome, Jenny! It's nice to find others interested in the same thing you are, isn't it?"}, {"response": 99, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (06:41)", "body": "Hi Jenny I haven't got the \"Making of\" book with me and someone else might be able to give more detail, but as I remember it, the producer intended to get Firth for the role from the beginning and sent him the script. He did not have to audition for it . It's my understanding that once you get well-known and have done lots of previous work you don't have to audition for roles any more. He didn't want to do it, but then he read the script and was hooked."}, {"response": 100, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (08:07)", "body": "Hi Jenny, Do you live in or near the Mid-Hudson Valley of New York where I am?? Linda"}, {"response": 101, "author": "Justagirl", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (12:00)", "body": "It's me again. It took awhile, but I couldn't find this topic or even the Spring again. Justaninternetidiot, too. Don't worry, I've added you all--my new friends--to My Favorites. And, yes, Becks, I do like No Doubt. : ) Has anyone seen the new A&E version of \"Emma?\" I missed it. Please let me know if you liked it...I'm thinking of buying the video, just to see it (and add to my collection). By the way, I've seen P&P2 too many times as well."}, {"response": 102, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (14:08)", "body": "Kate: as I remember it, the producer intended to get Firth for the role from the beginning and sent him the script Yes, Sue Birtwistle had worked with CF on Dutch Girls, and she knew he would be perfect as Darcy. (We should thank her for her astuteness and persistence.) Justagirl: Has anyone seen the new A&E version of \"Emma?\" I missed it. Please let me know if you liked it... We have been discussing this adaptation on the Topic Emma3, just down the \"road\" here at the austen conference."}, {"response": 103, "author": "valen", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:05)", "body": "Ann: Saw earlier that you'd asked if I watch Babylon 5. Only occasionally . I do recall a Messiah type, but didn't recall the name. Is it pronounced like the Valen in 'Valen'tine? That's how my dad calls me, being born in Feb and all. :-)"}, {"response": 104, "author": "Vivsy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:08)", "body": "Hi, I'm Vivian from Illinois, P&P2 is wonderful, I watched it everyday for a month (Dec. 1996), my husband thinks I'm crazy. After my daughter went to bed at 8:30 I would stay up and watch most of it skipping through some parts. Now, I just watch it about once or twice a week. I just found you people--had a hard time getting in with AOL, but now I'm with another server and it has been a breeze, I'll probably be here often."}, {"response": 105, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:19)", "body": "Welcome, Vivian. You have passed stage two, then? Where in Illinois? I am in Indiana and lived in Chicago for 7 years."}, {"response": 106, "author": "Vivsy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "I live in Springfield, the state capital. I'm afraid to ask, what is stage three?"}, {"response": 107, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (06:03)", "body": "Vivian, nice to have you join us. Many of us have found that this internet site is a nice supplement to our P&P2 addiction -- it's a wonderful place to spend time."}, {"response": 108, "author": "jennyh", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (08:33)", "body": "Kate and Kathleen: Thank you for the prompt answer! I am glad that Sue Birtwistle insisted CF to play Darcy!!! Linda: I just moved into NY state at the end of last year and I am not quite sure where mid Hudson valley is. I live in Manlius near Syracuse. To all of you, I must send my gratitude introducing BBC-A&E version of P&P. I did not even know the adaptation (except a version with LO and GG) was existed. Now I am totally hooked to P&P, the novel and P&P2. Jenny"}, {"response": 109, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (09:33)", "body": "Hello. My name is Lynn and I live in Boston. I've been peeking in for about a month. I saw P & P2 for the first time last month, and only by accident. Now I am completely hooked. Every Friday night I spend with my tapes watching the entire 5 hours! And I love reading your opinions - now when I watch, I see scenes with a different edge. I'm so glad for all of you - now I know I'm not alone in my fixation."}, {"response": 110, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (10:23)", "body": "] now I know I'm not alone in my fixation. __ Isn't that a nice feeling, Lynn? You are very welcome."}, {"response": 111, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:11)", "body": "Welcome, Lynn. I've put you on the Boston email list. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 176, "subject": "Trust", "response_count": 82, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (08:27)", "body": "Hil, what a thoughtful analysis. I never heard that aspect mentioned before. (You should try it out on your pen pal.) Secrets are intimate, aren't they?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "DaRcYfAn", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (08:45)", "body": "Hilary...I think in both cases they were caught up in the emotion of the moment and their feelings for each other, which they had both tried to fight. In Lizzys case, Darcy happened upon her just as the reality of what Lydia had done to herself and to her family had reached Lizzy. She was distressed before Darcy entered the room and it just spilled out. In Darcy's case, he was appalled that anyone (especially Elizabeth) would think so unkindly of him and even consider that he was so ruthless as to stea away from Wickham the gift left to him by Darcy's own father. Remember that a persons reputation was very important to them. Darcy cared very much what others thought of him (consider the first proposal to Lizzy). I also think both of them, even though hiding their feelings from even themselves for so long, couldn't stand the idea of the other thinking unkindly about each other. Lizzie even says it out loud at one point to Jane \"I can not bear to think that he is alive in the world and thinking ill o me.\" She won't even admit to herself at that point that she loves him. When Lizzy spilled out to Darcy the contents of Janes letter...she realizes that by his knowing he may be lost to her forever \"I shall never see him again\". So my answer is that I don't think it had anything to do with trusting each other...I think it was pure emotion...and by speaking thru that emotion, trust was earned...because they both respected each other for using the information given to them thru their emotions in a discreet manner. I have many times wondered how Lizzy could have kept all that she knew to herself. She did confide in Jane but she didn't even tell Jane everything (that Darcy had been the one to save Lydia and the Bennet family fro ruin). I would have burst keeping that important tidbit to myself!!!!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Grace", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (10:12)", "body": "]Just as they recognise their similarity of 'not performing to strangers', on some deeper level Darcy and Elizabeth recognise the other's integrity regarding themselves. It turns vulnerability into a chance for blossoming, and for this reason I love it. I agree, I agree! (We should also note the importance Austen places on the ability to keep a confidence. Lydia shows her lack of character when she so readily reveals that Darcy was at the wedding ceremony, which was to be a secret. Elinor, in S&S, keeps Lucy's confidence, even though Lucy means nothing to her. Also, Col. Brandon senses in Elinor her trustworthiness and confides in her.)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (12:06)", "body": "Hilary, I absolutely agree with you on the trust issue. In fact, this becomes an important plot point in the novel DARCY'S STORY, but I don't want to divulge any details to those who haven't read. I understand what Linda is saying about circumstance and reputation: that Darcy happens upon Lizzy in the Inne when she's particularly vulnerable; that Darcy feels obligated to defend his good name. However, would Darcy have divulged the news of his sister's near-elopement with Sir William Lucas or Lydia? L kewise, could Lizzie have trusted even Charlotte with her secret of Darcy's proposal? I think these two realize early on that at their core, they are two people who can be trusted with each other's secrets. They both understand that the other has a great deal of personal integrity."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (15:22)", "body": "It's interesting that this would be brought up now. Saturday (2/8), our Jane Austen Society talked a little about the confidence issue. It was discussed that in JA novels when a character speaks badly of another one (particularly if it's another family member) you can be assured that this charchter will not meet with a \"happy ending\". We were discussing Mansfield Park and how Miss Crawford belittles her Uncle and this is the first sign to Fanny and Edmund that Mary is not a very good person (though it tak s Edmund much longer to stick with this idea). I inturn, feel that most all the charcters in MP are this way. I could not get excited about anyone, not even our heroine. If you think about the other novels, this is true in almost all cases. Nothing really harsh has to happen but it usually doesn't bode well for their destiny. The only charcter who isn't like this is Mr. Bennett. Am I missing anyone? I have to agree with Linda. I think JA wanted them to have to trust each other as a plot device. The information was disclosed in the heat of the moment (though they both ask the other to keep it as a confidence or keep quiet as long as possible) and we had to learn with them if the other would be true to the confidence shared. Darcy's Story does cover this. I just read that this weekend: Second half was killer."}, {"response": 6, "author": "norma", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (15:35)", "body": "I'm not sure if I understand exactly what Linda means when she says that Elizabeth's confiding in Darcy was \"pure emotion\" rather than trust--even though she says trust arises from the situation. I think Elizabeth confided in him because she trusted his discretion and also because by now she recognized the \"good\" side of him. The movie has Elizabeth saying, after Lydia's elopement all works out, that she wishes she had never told Darcy. (I don't think that line is in the book.) I have always been trou led by that movie. Elizabeth could never have married Darcy with the true circumstances of Lydia's elopement hidden from him. Their relationship would have to be built on openness and trust--which involves a mutual recognition of the other's integrity. Darcy had already exhibited his reliance on her integrity; she bad to demonstrate her reliance on his."}, {"response": 7, "author": "norma", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (15:56)", "body": "Oops! I see a mistake in my response! Please, please do not think I was troubled by the movie P&P2! I loved the movie, and I spent the last two nights watching it on A&E. I only meant that I was troubled by that line in the movie!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (16:10)", "body": "He confided in her to clear him of abuse toward Wickham. I think it was emotion confidence,because this way Mr. Darcy learns what should have been his responsibility to begin with. He should have spoken of Wickhams true character. She wishes she never told him This JA does too well leaving Lizzie wondering after the inn how Mr. Darcy really feels. I don't know why JA thought she had to leave it that way. I think she could have him be reassuring with out giving his true intentions away. (The idea being if he knew at the time at the inn \"his idea\" that he would leave for London. Then why not go instantly instead of wasting time?)This is another story). This is why the screenwriter left Lizzie to regret ever telling Mr. Darcy.All due to his reaction at the Inn. I do think to get this point across that Lizzie thinks he no longer wants anything to do with her and because she doesn't want him to think \"ill\" of her. She was definitely in love with him at this point.JA leaves us in such \"turmoil\". Myself at this point am about to pull my hair out."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:08)", "body": "Norma, I think Linda means that he walks in just as she finds out this dreadful news and she cannot help blurting it out. This is natural. Darcy tells Lizzie because his pride forces him to when he is feeling it wounded, probably like at no other time. This is what \"pure emotion\" meant to me."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:31)", "body": "] Norma, I think Linda means that he walks in just as she finds out this dreadful news and she cannot help blurting it out. __ I'd agree with this, except Lizzy would not have told just anybody. She's impulsive but collected at the same time, if that is possible?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (21:35)", "body": "I think that is possible, and its exactly what I meant, Amy. I know these were emotional crises for them, but they would not have blurted it out to anyone. We are told a lot about Lizzie's regret at Darcy knowing about Lydia, including that line as a thought, Norma in Ch. 50. Grace, I agree about the importance JA places on keeping confidences."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (21:35)", "body": "I think that is possible, and its exactly what I meant, Amy. I know these were emotional crises for them, but they would not have blurted it out to anyone. We are told a lot about Lizzie's regret at Darcy knowing about Lydia in Ch. 50. Grace, I agree about the importance JA places on keeping confidences."}, {"response": 13, "author": "sld", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (21:44)", "body": "[Norma, I think Linda means that he walks in just as she finds out this dreadful news and she cannot help blurting it out. This is natural.] The thing is, I don't think it was natural. For you and me today, yes. But I don't in those times it was natural at all. From what I have read, people were reserved in the extreme. Elizabeth would probably not have told Darcy of Lydia's elopement if they had not already 'had a history'. I have already said something to this effect in the 'Happiest Couple' thread in argument that Elizabeth and Darcy would have been the happiest couple of all JA characters. It starts with Elizabeth's telling Darcy exactly what she thought of him after his first proposal. Now that was NOT natural or normal. (She sure held back on Mr. Collins' proposal!) I think that she was the first human being that Darcy had ever come across who was totally honest with him. He may not have liked her message at irst, but as he said later, it was just. And when he then wrote her the letter afterwards, it was an honest response to her honesty with him, as well as the fact that he didn't want her to believe that he was dishonourable. I don't think that he would have defended himself to just anyone because he would have had to share his secret. The circle is then completed at inn when she has the opportunity to share her secret. Once again, if a stranger had come though that door, she certainly would not have confessed such a disgraceful thing. This sharing of secrets, this honesty, this intimacy is what makes their story so beautiful for their times and even today. They had each found someone they could be total nude with (emotionally). And that is why they were the happiest couple in Austen Valley. And Hilary, your opening was beautifully said."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (09:53)", "body": "Yesterday in the drawing room, I complimented Hilary on thinking of the trust issue. She said she'd been noodling on it for a time, ever since we spoke about Darcy's vulnerability some weeks or months ago. I think I'd like to explore another region of vulnerability. Here is an edited chat log (with a discussion of Cadbury's chocolate and Daniel Day Lewis drooling -- led by Cheryl -- extracted); you'll see why bringing it out into the open scares me a little. AMY: I'd still like to talk about another part of vulnerability. SAMAN: Sorry - who's vulnerability? HIL: You mean in realation to our liking for D, Amy, or in another way? AMY: Well, you are getting into vulnerability when you talk about trust. But I mean, the \"do we want to mother Darcy,\" part of vulnerability. SAMAN: Do WE want to mother Darcy? Need you ask? AMY: Why do we like it so when he stammers and fidgets? HIL: Darcy's vulnerability, Saman. Oh I see, Amy. Yeah.... I see what you mean about half wanting to! CHERYL: ]Why do we like it so when he stammers and fidgets? it shows that he isn;t in as complete control as he likes to think, and we don;t want men who are too sure of themselves! HIL: Why do we like it fidgets etc....still think its because it indicates uncertainty, a chink in the armour. AMY: From:Amy(New Msg) at 2/10/97 3:01 PM ] ]Why do we like it so when he stammers and fidgets? it shows that he isn;t in as complete control as he likes to think, and we don;t want men who are too sure of themselves! __ So, it may not have anything -- or much -- to do with wanting to mother. But still, liking somebody not sure of himself, what does that say about us? SAMAN: I definitely identify with the vulnerability thing. When he stammers and fidgets I think \"poor thing\", which I guess means that I want to mother him. Maybe that's why Lizzy is so good for him - she possibly has the same initial reaction, but she doesn't (or can't) intervene to make him more at ease. CHERYL: ]But still, liking somebody not sure of himself, what does that say about us? men who are too sure of themselves are the ones who are arrogant, don't give your opinion as much weight as theirs. and who wants that? SAMAN: But there's something very dangerous about liking someone because of their vulnerability. HIL: Exacactly, Amy.. But still, liking somebody not sure of himself, what does that say about us? I think its the fact that no-one is so sure of themselves, and if you recognise that in yourself its good, and if you can see it in someone who is accomplished in many ways, it allows you to feel that they are as human/flawed as yourself. Puts you as equals in some way. CHERYL: ]But there's something very dangerous about liking someone because of their vulnerability. yes it is a fine line...you don't want someone who is wishy-washy or too needy... AMY: men who are too sure of themselves are the ones who are arrogant, don't give your opinion as much weight as theirs. and who wants that? ____ But can't their be respect and kindness and charity within a guy who is sure of himself. Does he have to feel somewhat bad about himself to make us like him or want him? SAMAN: Thanks Hil - that's what I was getting at too. If you're attracted to someone because they're vulnerable, chances are you'll try to change them. THey might be perfectly happy with (or oblivious to) their vulnerability, so that it's not a good idea to try and make them less vulnerable. CAROLYN: ]I think its the fact that no-one is so sure of themselves, and if you recognise that in yourself its good, and if you can see it in someone who is accomplished in many ways, it allows you to feel that they are as human/flawed as yourself. Puts you as equals in some way. Very good, Hilary, I was thinking along the same lines, but could not put it as elequantly as you did. CHERYL: yeah, Amy--what Hil said! ;-) HIL: 'But can't their be respect and kindness and charity within a guy who is sure of himself' Yes, I think so. AMY: yeah, Amy--what Hil said! ;-) __ She does have a nice way of saying what we would like to say, doesn't she? CHERYL: From:Cheryl(New Msg) at 2/10/97 3:15 PM ]She does have a nice way of saying what we would like to say, doesn't she? yep! she's so damn articulate! ;-) (oh sorry--there's that growing uop thing again...:-( ) HIL: Cheryl, we wouldn't want you any other way! (Then I neglected to capture the part about how Cheryl can be an analytical as anybody, she just gets distracted -- oh look... --- ! ! -- .. a bird!)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (10:00)", "body": "Norma and Amy....remember that Lizzy didn't even tell Jane everything...she didn't tell her till later about who was the benefactor that got the Bennets out of Lydias mess....if she wouldn't even release a confidence to her only confident..Jane...she would have never told Darcy...whom she was still holding at arms length..and whom she did not want to have know anything that may have put herself or her family in a negative light in Darcys eyes. Look how she reacted to their meeting at Pemberley...she was ghast at what he might think of her then...why would she in just two days time...tell him the most devastating thing that had happened to her and her family, Ever! It had to be because it was the heat of the moment..that he happened into the situation at that time...I do believe that because of her \"being assured of his secrecy\" that trust is earned...just as it is when Darcy writes his letter telling of the situation with Wickham and his sister. To take it even further...this trust that develops due to these circumstances most likely builds to the love that they are finely able to unveil when they take that walk down the lane that leads to their future together."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (10:06)", "body": "Did I say anything about Lizzy's intimacy with Jane? I don't remember saying anything about that. It is one of the impressions I try to guard against, having watched the film so many times and having become so married to Davies interpretation. Austen never meants for Jane to serve as confindante. She even says that Charlotte was closer to Lizzy. Davies used the bedroom scenes as a way to let us know what Lizzy was thinking. It works. I love those scenes. But she was not so close to Jane."}, {"response": 17, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (11:18)", "body": "It's doubly sad then, that when Charlotte marries Mr. Collins, Lizzie loses her best friend & confidante (in fact, confiding to Charlotte as Mrs. Collins could actually be HARMFUL to Lizzie where Mr. Darcy is concerned, considering the Lady C. connection). Having read all of the opinions above, I just can't believe that Darcy would reveal \"a scandal - involving his own sister even!\" if he didn't implicitly trust Lizzie to the core. Of course, he wanted to clear himself, but if he didn't feel she would r n around Meryton crowing the news like Lydia, could he ever have revealed the intimate details of the near-affair between Georgiana and Wickham? Likewise, we know that Lizzy is highly distraut at the Inne when Darcy stumbles upon her. However, she could merely have said that \"ugent business calls us home\" -- Period. The age was reserved enough to make this perfectly acceptable -- no further revelation or explanation necessary. I very much subscribe to Sharon's opinion above: these two DO trust each o her. I think Lizzie understands that Darcy is a man to be trusted even when enmeshed in her dislike of him. And she validates his opinion of her by proving the soul of discretion with his secret."}, {"response": 18, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (11:51)", "body": "]AMY: re: men who are too sure of themselves are the ones who are arrogant, ]don't give your opinion as much weight as theirs. and who wants that? ]_________ ]But can't their be respect and kindness and charity within a guy who is sure of ]himself. Does he have to feel somewhat bad about himself to make us like him or ]want him? Don't believe lack of thrust or simple vulnerability which can be experience as a man (or women) acknowledging being human and not always right, allowing oneself to wonder of its justness of decision and calculations is \"to feel bad about oneself\". This can be a positive experience allowing to grow as a person and not necessarely a repressive emotions to succomb to. ]Hil : I think its the fact that no-one is so sure of themselves, and if you ]recognise that in yourself its good, and if you can see it in someone who is ]accomplished in many ways, it allows you to feel that they are as human/flawed ]as yourself. Puts you as equals in some way. Well said, Hilary"}, {"response": 19, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (12:03)", "body": "I think it is important to differentiate between vulnerability and neediness. Those of us who mother tend (or tended at one time) to be attracted to needy men (a generalization, I admit). I think that the reasons for this are various and, in each case, are bound up with the myriad events that have made us who we are. I think I understand why this subject scares you, Amy. But vulnerability is not neediness. It is a part of honesty. We are all vulnerable in some way and, if we trust, we can reveal that vulnerability to another. When your cat rolls over on his back and exposes that soft belly to your touch, it is because he trusts that you will not take that opportunity to rip it open. When I expose my inner self, it is much the same. I trust that the person to whom I reveal this vulnerable area will not rip open my psyche. So, from my perspective, the admission vulnerability is not a revelation of weakness but of trust."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (12:04)", "body": "O.K., these are all great arguments with validity for all sides, but now the big question: Why does Darcy initially trust Lizzie? Does she really give him any reason to trust her? Think of all the scenes where he catches her in a whispered/private conversation (with Charlotte at the ball and Lucas Lodge). How about her frankness? Wouldn't that put him off in a time of reserve? When we clear this up we can ask the other question: Why Lizzie trusts Darcy, which I think is easier to answer."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:29)", "body": "] We are all vulnerable in some way and, if we trust, we can reveal that vulnerability to another. When your cat rolls over on his back and exposes that soft belly to your touch, it is because he trusts that you will not take that opportunity to rip it open. __ I like the way you explain this, Myretta. It could be that since I still have trouble allowing myself to be vulnerable, afraid my trust will be betrayed, that I fear the feeling of attraction to the vulnerability of others? That probably doen't make any sense to anybody but a fellow current or former co-dep."}, {"response": 22, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:55)", "body": "Makes a LOT of sense"}, {"response": 23, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (14:32)", "body": "It could be that since I still have trouble allowing myself to be vulnerable, afraid my trust will be betrayed, that I fear the feeling of attraction to the vulnerability of others? That probably doen't make any sense to anybody but a fellow current or former co-dep. ____________ I think that history of co-dependency also makes us afraid that we can't distinguish vulnerability from neediness. And what a disaster that attraction is!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (14:59)", "body": "Dependency and neediness -- these are both very human qualities, are they not? The extremes, constant need for attention or affection or reassurance, for example, are the danger. People with an extreme neediness can become takers who never return your attention or affection or reassurances. On the other hand, people who are self-sufficient in the extreme do not appear to need us in any way, and what is attractive about that? I am talking about people who go beyond self confidence to arrogance and conceit, who know that nobody else could possibly do/know better. I feel that Darcy initially appears almost too self-sufficient (and maybe too self-satisfied), but his attraction to Elizabeth informs him of his need for her affection (and approval). He then allows his vulnerability to be visible -- to himself and to Elizabeth."}, {"response": 25, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (15:03)", "body": "To pick up the question of whether \"we\" want to mother Darcy, I can only speak for myself -- NO. I have never had that tendency, nor have I played that part in any relationship (I have no children, and I am more of a friend to my nieces & nephews). So, I would say that Darcy's fidgets, etc. are attractive to me because they show his human side, and I find him quite an attractive human (for a literary character!)."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "It does make sense to me, Amy. Myretta, you say exactly what I was getting at with vulnerability. And likewise Amy2 and Sharon re theP&P trust. Linda, as to why Darcy should trust Lizzie, its an interesting question. He has been watching her and how she deals with people and behaves. But my main response would be: Don't you ever meet people and just know that you are on the same wavelength, and can trust them? Of course we can turn out wrong, and Darcy being wrong would be a whole new story, but he wasn't."}, {"response": 27, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (15:21)", "body": "Thank you Myretta and Kathleen for making understandable what I wanted to say. Upon reading my post not even I understands what it means."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (15:57)", "body": "Sorry Hilary, but I guess I need something a little more tangible here. What would JA have us believe was the reason Darcy trusted her? Amy? By the way, I like my guys a little cocky (I think it's from growing up in a locker room). As long as their area of confidence doesn't opress me. I don't feel there is such thing as 100% confidence, it's an act, but I do believe they can feel confident in certain areas of their life i.e. sports, career, appearance (hmmm), talents, etc.. I know men like this. In some cases I think it's sexy."}, {"response": 29, "author": "norma", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (16:08)", "body": "Sharon, You expressed what I was trying to say, but you said it much better. Yes, Lizzy did blurt out the info to Darcy, but she would never have told just anybody--I can't think of any other character in the book she would have been so open with. People of the age were extremely reserved and controlled--like Elinor in S&S also. Linda, remember than when Lizzy first meets Darcy at Pemberly she is extremely embarrassed at what he might think of her by finding her there. However, his treatment of her co vinces her that he is still in love with her--remember the night when she works through it all and is convinced that \"ardent love\" explains friendly actions toward her and the Gardiners. Only because she is convinced of his love does she tell him the news of Lydia's elopement. Of course, she can't know what he will do with the information. Thanks to all of you who looked up the passage in the book. I find the relationship between Jane and Elizabeth interesting. I think Jane confides more in Elizabeth than the other way around. That seems to imply that Elizabeth does not trust Jane completely. Elizabeth is also very proud, of course, and if Darcy would not come back, she could not bear to be pitied as Jane had been pitied after the Bingley affair. I liked the point someone made that Elizabeth certainly did not tell Collins what she thought of him when he made his proposal. Only with Darcy is she totally honest--she is honest again in the inn in telling him about Lydia."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (16:33)", "body": "I just want to congratulate all the posters above. I've thoroughly enjoyed this whole topic, although I have nothing new or informative to add. I agree with so much of the above that it's just nice to read! I love listening in on such an intelligent conversation!!;-)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (17:22)", "body": "Dina, we might have to reconcile ourselves to disagree. I think JA used and enjoyed intangibility, and I certainly thrive on it."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (17:46)", "body": "Good point! I don't know if you read Darcy's Story , but I felt like the first half of the book didn't answer this question either. I am into additional insite when it comes to this book. That's why the constant viewings, the reading of sequels etc. Sometimes I think my whole life is a veritable intangible."}, {"response": 33, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "[...it's sad when Charlotte marries Mr. Collins, Lizzie loses her best friend & confidante ] Yes, Amy, and this kind of contributes to her part in the intimacey/trust which grows between her and Darcy. She loses respect in Charlotte's judgement to some degree and although they are still friends, it will never be the same between them. While on the other hand, she starts to see Darcy with new eyes and her respect for him grows. [ Why does Darcy initially trust Lizzie? Does she really give him any reason to trust her?] Dina, as I said, initially , she was totally honest with him about what she thought of him, and that was a new experience for him. She's a straight shooter. But he didn't really need for her to prove herself. He was drawn to her, wanted to believe she could be discrete, and on some level he was reaching out to her via the letter. [I think Jane confides more in Elizabeth than the other way around. That seems to imply that Elizabeth does not trust Jane completely.] Norma, it may not be trust that is missing here. I could be that Jane just does not see the world the way Elizabeth does and Elizabeth knows that. Jane may just not be able to understand Elizabeth and one of the things we seek when we trust and confide is understanding - and not for someone to agree, but just know where we are coming from. Look at the difference in the conversation of Lydia's elopement between Darcy and Elizabeth and Jane and Elizabeth. Darcy and Elizabeth jive very well. \" You know him to well to doubt the rest.\" But then with Jane - forget about it. Jane still did not believe Wickham capable of 'such an attempt'."}, {"response": 34, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (23:17)", "body": "And what about this, girls: Does Darcy even propose again? Did he even directly ask her? Or did they each just take it as a given since his sentiments and wishes had NOT changed and hers HAD. Think about it. If this is a marriage proposal, \" You are to generous to trifle with me. If your feelings are still what they were last April tell me so at once. My affections and wishes are unchanged; but one word from you will silence me on this subject forever.\"; and her acceptance is to respond that her feelings had changed, then these two HAD to be pretty damn connected if each were clear on the point. What do you think, Hil?"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (00:30)", "body": "\"but one word from you will silence me on this subject forever\" I think this line contains the implication of a proposal. A man only gets two chances to ask (unless he's Henry Crawford), this then is his second and last."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (01:47)", "body": "Sharon - I have to agree with Ann that his sentiments are a proposal. If he had said that to me, I would have thought it was a proposal. And the finality to the statement \"but one word from you will silence me on this subject forever,\" it is similar to Wentworth says one look from you and I will enter your father's house tonight or never. I know I love Darcy/CF's stuttering and stammering because to me it shows how Lizzy has totally unnerved him. He has no control over himself in her presence. As has been posted, extreme dependency is bad but seeing a man so much in control of himself lose it is great! Sure its gushy, romantic stuff but seeing someone react in a way that corresponds to the butterflies and lightheadedness you feel when you are infaturated or in love is wonderful. BTW, this is a great topic; thanks for your insight Hilary and everyone else who has posted."}, {"response": 37, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (04:17)", "body": "I do not see the self-revelations of Darcy and Elizabeth to one another as much a matter of deep instinctive trust as a matter of pride - especially on Darcy's part. At the moment of his deep personal revelation, he has yet to recognize that his own pride is \"excessive\" and has not begun the change that is later to come following self-reflection stimulated by Lizzie's criticisms. In the novel after the second proposal he asks that Lizzie destroy the letter which was written in bitterness and anger. His main motives at the time were that the truth be known and that he not be though ill of unjustly . He places a high value on truth - disguise of every sort is his abhorrence. For this reason, too, he can not find any fault in his separation of Bingley from Jane. He believed his actions to be honorable and based on fact. Of course it is true that both Darcy and Elizabeth have characters which are fundamentally trustworthy, and neither had any reason to fear that a confidence would be broken by the other. When Lizzie receives the news about Lydia and Wickham, and as fate would have it, immediately encounters the one person in the world with whom she can speak regarding Wickham's duplicity, the one whom she knows has cause to understand just how devastating this news really is, she is far too upset to give a thought to what such a revelation might mean to any hopes that she might later be entertaining regarding the possibility of Darcy's renewing his addresses to her. She knows that he, among all ot ers, will understand what she is feeling, and that he will respect her confidence, and in the emotion of the moment, reveals all. She does not, however, trust him enough to believe that he could possibly have a good enough opinion of her to overcome the \"pollution\" of having Wickham as a brother-in-law. And she, too, has her pride. During the ensuing weeks in which the hasty wedding makes it possible that the scandal will not become universally known, she begins to regret ever having told Darcy anything about it. Even if she is never to see Darcy again, she does not want to be thought ill of. Davies condenses many pages of Lizzie's state of inner turmoil into a single line which she speaks to Jane, \"I shall probably never see him again, [but] I cannot bear to think he is alive in the world and thinking ill of me.\" And in looking back, this is exactly what Darcy was feeling at the time that he had made his own unpleasant secret known. I shall probably never see her again, [but] I cannot bear to think she is alive in the world and thinking ill of me.\""}, {"response": 38, "author": "norma", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (09:26)", "body": "Joan, I love the way you connected the line Elizabeth speaks: \"I can't bear to think that he is alive in the world and thinking ill of me\" to Darcy's he same sentiment when he is writing his letter. Since they both trusted the other as a person of the greatest integrity (Darcy first, then Elizabeth later), you are right in that both would want to be understood by the other as a person of integrity himself. In response to the second proposal, I think it is implicit in the words \"my affections and wishes are unchanged\"--his wish was to marry Elizabeth. I also agree with those who commented that Darcy seems too self-sufficient at first. I think he was. Part of his humbling was recognizing his need for another person to complete his happiness. He becomes vulnerable by recognizing his need for intimacy."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (09:35)", "body": "Okay, everybody.You are teaching me something. So vulnerable isn't all bad. That's quite a concept for me."}, {"response": 40, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (11:47)", "body": "Amy, I would say that human relationships are not even possible unless there's some vulnerability displayed on both sides. We have to open ourselves up enough to get hurt perhaps, but also to let the other person in. Now I have known desperately needy people who are looking to be \"rescued,\" but that's an extreme example. It kind of comes down to the: \"Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all\" mantra. If Darcy hadn't allowed himself to be at least somewhat vulnerable, he never wou d have proposed to Lizzy in the first place! Likewise, her vulnerability at the Inne when she is emotionally distraught & crying only _increases_ Darcy's attraction to her. As far as the trust issue is concerned, what did Lizzy do to deserve Darcy's before he writes his letter? She was utterly open to him about her opinion of the Collins' marriage, and thus displays her good sense. From their parrys at Netherfield (her stay, and at the ball) he sees she is a witty, intelligent person -- not frivolous r silly like her younger sisters. She also obviously cares deeply about her sister Jane as she needles him continually with this at Rosings. She has an insight into character -- she tries to understand his at the ball, and shows that she DOES understand him during the piano scene at Rosings. So if you put this all together, he realizes he's dealing with a smart woman possessive of extraordinary aplomb and integrity."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (12:54)", "body": "I think you have helped me answer my own question: Lizzie is honest but she is also mature. She even states at one point to her Aunt Gardiner (I think) that \"we may have all been misled about Mr. Wickham\" That is all she need say regarding him without divulging specific information. I think when she showed her concern for \"a most beloved sister\" he knows that she will keep his secret about his \"most beloved sister\". What do you think JA would make of all this analyzation? This has been very insightful."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (13:47)", "body": "Amy, Re: response #16....sorry! I guess when I think of P&P...I think more of the movie than of the novel...."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (15:26)", "body": "] I guess when I think of P&P...I think more of the movie than of the novel.... __ Me too, Linda. I have to catch myself."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (18:21)", "body": "Dina, (#32) I'm sorry, haven't read Darcy's Story, so can't comment on that. '. It could be that Jane just does not see the world the way Elizabeth does and Elizabeth knows that. Jane may just not be able to understand Elizabeth and one of the things we seek when we trust and confide is understanding - and not for someone to agree, but just know where we are coming from. ' I think this is right. About the proposal: I absolutely agree with you, Sharon. I love that intangibility about the proposal. I don't think there is any doubt that is a proposal, but as others have said, it is implicit instead of stated directly. I too think they are 'pretty damn connected.' And even if they did talk about it more directly - Elizabeth recieved 'with gratitude and pleasure, his present assurances'- JA thinks we don't need to know in detail. Joan, I agree that pride has a lot to do with how they both react, but I also feel there is that deeper level of trust going on as well. BTW I really like your connection here: '.\" And in looking back, this is exactly what Darcy was feeling at the time that he had made his own unpleasant secret known. I shall probably never see her again, [but] I cannot bear to think she is alive in the world and thinking ill of me.\" I also like your connection, Dina: 'I think when she showed her concern for \"a most beloved sister\" he knows that she will keep his secret about his \"most beloved sister\". And lastly to Karen, 'seeing a man so much in control of himself lose it is great! Sure its gushy, romantic stuff but seeing someone react in a way that corresponds to the butterflies and lightheadedness you feel when you are infatuated or in love is wonderful.' I think the stammers and figets are the outward sign of the inner butterflies and lightheadedness. We all (men and women) get them all."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "Amy and Linda - I know Davies uses creative license with some scenes with Lizzy and Jane but they were close. True they may not be as close as Lizzy and Charlotte (until Mr. Collins) but I almost got the impression some of these posts were implying Jane and Lizzy did not have a close relationship."}, {"response": 46, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (23:23)", "body": "Dina, that's a very astute connection I didn't make when I was thinking about Lizzy caring so much for Jane. I guess we can say that Lizzie conducted herself so honorably in all of her other relationships, Darcy figured she would continue to do so with their own."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (23:57)", "body": "In response to the second proposal, I think it is implicit in the words \"my affections and wishes are unchanged\"--his wish was to marry Elizabeth. This was my impression also. During the first proposal, he first says that she must allow him to tell her how ardently he admires and loves her (\"my affections), then he asks her to end his suffering and consent to become his wife (his \"wish\"). I took his comments during the second proposal to mean that both of these remained unchanged"}, {"response": 48, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (02:49)", "body": "Amy: So vulnerable isn't all bad. That's quite a concept for me. Almost no quality (except, perhaps \"evil\"?) is all bad - but both extremes on any continuum are almost always \"bad.\" Both total invulnerability and total vulnerability are undesirable character traits. One renders us inhuman and the other, a perpetual victim. In order to be accessible to others, to be able to form viable relationships with others, we must be willing to open ourselves up to a certain amount of vulnerability (and trust), but we must also have the strength of \"character\" to avoid becoming so vulnerable to everything tiny thing that life hands us that we become incapacitated and unable to function."}, {"response": 49, "author": "IF", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (09:57)", "body": "With regard to the second proposal, I think in those days that if a man declared his love for a woman then it was a proposal. In the first proposal the only reason Darcy said at the end of his speech if Elizabeth would do him the honor of becoming his wife, was so the audience at home would know he was proposing. But, in the second proposal Davis just hopes we realize that Darcy is proposing again. Willoughby never said he loved Marianne in Sense and Sensibility because if he did it meant he proposed."}, {"response": 50, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (10:54)", "body": "Nice to see you back, Irene. How have you been?"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Dina", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (15:56)", "body": "Irene, good point about Willoughby! In order to be accessible to others, to be able to form viable relationships with others, we must be willing to open ourselves up to a certain amount of vulnerability (and trust), but we must also have the strength of \"character\" to avoid becoming so vulnerable to everything tiny thing that life hands us that we become incapacitated and unable to function. So how do we know where to draw the line? Where does discretion end and avarice begin? (Was that about Wickham or Darcy?) I could write a book about this and I have never been married/divorced. I am more the \"don't-trust-enough-school\" rather than a co-dependent. I am tired of getting hurt. It takes me 4- 5 years to psych myself up to get into more than just a casual relationship again (which I am, ironically, in the process of doing now). How can we end up as lucky as Lizzie? Maybe the fact that e even consider it means we realize there might be a bad ending. Grrrr!!! . I get so frustrated, I guess I think too much :-)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "Dina: So how do we know where to draw the line? This is one of the major mysteries of life, is it not? (This and \"why were we put here anyway?\") And also the grist from which so much of great literature and other art forms are made. It is a topic which never ceases to fasacinate - probably because the answer is different for every individual. There is no magic formula to be had. Lizzie ends up lucky because her creator chose to have her be so, and as author had the power to make it so - though in real life it might well have been otherwise. Our creator has chosen to let us work it out for ourselves. And some of us do think too much! :-)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "sld", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (19:12)", "body": "[I think in those days that if a man declared his love for a woman then it was a proposal.] Good point.-"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (20:12)", "body": "spring won't accept this in one hit - I'm going to try it as 2 messages I've been reading this thread with great interest, but have been too busy to paticipate in the discussion. Today things are quieter and I can't resist the temptation to join in; the discussion has been complex, I can't address my comments as answers to any particular one of the earlier posts, so I'll just jump in. For me trust resonates and is very much tied up with love. I too have known people whom I liked and trusted almost at sight; some are still close friends but with others my first impression turned out to be wrong (much like love at first sight, at least as I've experienced it). Also I tend to trust the people I love; I can't imagine liking or loving an adult I couldn't trust, although there are people in whose integrity I trust but whom I cannot really like. For me, in the first heady, euphoric days of being in love, when one may not really know the beloved all that well but believes them possessed of all virtues, trusting the belvoed is part of being in love. I think Darcy trusts Elizabeth because he loves her. So far as we know he hasn't had a chance to assess her trustworthiness - all that he can really know is that her manners are good and she is pretty and witty and clever, but he is in love with her and can't bear to have her misjudge him and takes her trustworthiness on faith. I think the case is a little different with Elizabeth's confiding in Darcy. The letter Darcy wrote to her, and the visits to Pemberly have shown her that he is responsible, reliable, and she knows of his care for his sister and other dependents. Furthermore Elizabeth has just found out about Lydia, has no hope of concealing her distress and tells Darcy in the 'heat of the moment' when she might not have done so if he had arrived after she had spoken with the Gardiners. I think Elizabeth is begining to e in love with Darcy at this point, but she has more 'rational' grounds for trusting and loving Darcy at this point than he did to love and trust her. In fact JA specifically tells us that Lizzy is forming an attachment in 'a less interesting manner'."}, {"response": 55, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "part the second With regard to vulnerability, I find it attractive because of the (usually) implied trust - my maternal instinct is deficient, I rarely feel an urge to protect others, and almost never adults unless they're sick. Mostly if someone lets you see their weaknesses it's because they like and trust you, although occaisionallyit's because their distress is such that the facade cannot be maintained. When Darcy runs into Lizzy at Pemberly I think the latter case holds; I think he'd prefer to maintain the facade at that point, but Lizzy disturbs him so, and he had no warning. I find it cute for Lizzy's sake; if someone makes you uncomfortable it's nice to know they're not indifferent to you, and in this case we have reason to suspect it's because he's still in love with Lizzy. I find constancy in love attractive, when the beloved is worthy. Generally I distrust people who always maintain an unruffled facade, for much the same reasons as Anne Elliot; if I never see any burst of feeling, any sign of anger or delight, I don't feel I know the person at all, and I tend to wonder what it is they are concealing behind the mask. (I realise it may just be shyness, but on prolonged aquaitance such extreme reserve still makes me uneasey)."}, {"response": 56, "author": "sld", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (20:30)", "body": "[I think Darcy trusts Elizabeth because he loves her. .... JA specifically tells us that Lizzy is forming an attachment in 'a less interesting manner.] Right on point, Anna. I don't think Darcy thought twice about trusting her. And it is true that everyone comes to Love and Trust in different ways. I think Elizabeth, realizing that the way she came to love him was this gradual process as she came to know him, was interested in HOW differently he came to love her. She knew he could not have known her at first as he then does. Even in his answer to her,\" I cannot fix on the hour, or the spot, or the words, or the look,...', he just DID."}, {"response": 57, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (22:04)", "body": "Just as there are differences in degrees of vulnerability , there are differences in levels of trust which we accord to others. I would not hesitate to tell my closest friend the most intimate family detail; I trust her not to tell anyone else. While I might trust a colleague with information about a problem student, I would not be likely to tell him/her about my family problems. On the Spring here we share a lot, even though we do not know each other in the sense of meeting face to face. And, I trust everyone enough to lend out a video tape to some of you, as one of you has trusted me enough to let me borrow \"Darcy's Story.\" I think we all make mistakes in trusting/not trusting certain people, but maybe we learn from these mistakes. Elizabeth made a mistake in trusting Wickham -- she believed he was telling the truth, and she assumed (I think) that he would not repeat anything she said. She was wrong, at least about believing him. But there were others she did not trust (at least as far as their motives), such as Miss Bingley when she flamed Wickham to Lizzy. While Elizabeth was correct in assessing Miss B's motives, she was wrong about the information given. I continue to try to learn from each new relationship, no matter what level of trust is required. I do not want to stop trusting, or what's the point of living in a society. I do want to make informed decisions, however, so maybe I try to decide with less emotion -- difficult at times, I know, but necessary perhaps. Just as vulnerability can be attractive, so can having someone trust you. It is a sign of great respect and affection to be trusted -- to keep a secret, to listen with an open mind, to be there as a friend when needed. So, Darcy trusting Elizabeth to keep his secret is incredibly gratifying, and attractive -- it shows how highly he thinks of her that he would risk his sister's reputation in order to explain himself to her."}, {"response": 58, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (22:58)", "body": "I continue to try to learn from each new relationship, no matter what level of trust is required. I do not want to stop trusting, or what's the point of living in a society. I do want to make informed decisions, however, so maybe I try to decide with less emotion -- difficult at times, I know, but necessary perhaps. A very healthy and growth-oriented way to live, Kathleen! I applaud you."}, {"response": 59, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "Kathleen the Elder: That's a very cogent analysis, and I agree with every point. However, I would say in response to some of the above that Darcy trusts Lizzy _not merely because_ he loves her; she has proven to him through her words and actions that she is: 1) Intelligent and discerning in her opinions 2) Capable of forming and holding onto deep attachments, as with Jane & Charlotte 3) Ethical and not obsequious, as when they have their debate at Netherfield. His attraction and love for her of course increases his trust, but I think that she has, albeit unconsciously, inspired it just by being herself."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Dina", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (11:57)", "body": "There are times when we all have a bad-luck-streak in relationships (with men and women) so we tend to get into that comfort zone where we don't make efforts with new people - causing us to possibly miss out on some great relationships. A comfort zone means no trust, which means, as Anna says, no growth. What is the point of life if not to grow (and learn)? I think as adults we all know this, but at times, it is easier said than done. In a way, that is why we gravitate to these Austen books. People who hazzard to trust, have success. Lizzie and Darcy trust and are then \"blessed\" for their efforts. Maybe it's not just the romance that is attractive, it's the taking of a chance, trusting, and being rewarded."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (22:00)", "body": "Anna, I agree that trust is part of love, and being in love. I think when you say D 'takes her trustworthiness on faith', and E comes to love in 'a less interesting manner', you are saying much the same as I was when I talked about their conscious relationship. But I must still agree with Amy2: 'His attraction and love for her of course increases his trust, but I think that she has, albeit unconsciously, inspired it just by being herself.' Kathleen said 'Just as vulnerability can be attractive, so can having someone trust you. It is a sign of great respect and affection to be trusted -- to keep a secret, to listen with an open mind, to be there as a friend when needed' I agree. I also think that since sexuality has as much to do with an attraction of minds as it does to attraction of bodies, that the offer of trust or vulnerability can enhance sexual attraction. And to Dina: 'In a way, that is why we gravitate to these Austen books. People who hazzard to trust, have success. Lizzie and Darcy trust and are then \"blessed\" for their efforts. Maybe it's not just the romance that is attractive, it's the taking of a chance, trusting, and being rewarded.' It is certainly this that continues my interest, except I would say that the importance is on the struggle to take the chance, to trust, to not give up on tackling the hard issues, whether you get rewarded or not. Both D and E do not know they will get rewarded, but they are driven to do what they think is right. But of course it is delicious for us that JA allows their trust to be rewarded! (I think my very first post was about this!)"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "I think what you folks have been discussing is: Does Darcy trust her because he loves her? or does he love her because he trusts her?--or both? These both seem to go hand in hand, each time trust is increased the ratchet of love moves up another notch, and every time love is increased the ratchet of trust moves up a notch."}, {"response": 63, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (11:05)", "body": "Ann, that's a very wise remark. I couldn't agree more. Trust and love MUST GO hand-in-hand, if you don't want to head for the rocks in a relationship."}, {"response": 64, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (20:02)", "body": "Going back to that chat room conversation: 'But can't their be respect and kindness and charity within a guy who is sure of himself'? The more I think about this, the more I think that that you are more likely to get that from guys who are (relatively - not arrogantly) sure of themselves. Confidence, self-acceptance, and being not too threatened yourself, usually give more capacity to accept others with respect, kindness, and charity, because you are not too worried about your own resilience."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "] Confidence, self-acceptance, and being not too threatened yourself, usually give more capacity to accept others with respect, kindness, and charity, because you are not too worried about your own resilience. __ Right. And being secure about -- forgive the pop psych talk -- one's personal power insures against the temptation to use over power over another."}, {"response": 66, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "I agree. The more messed up a person is, the less likely they're going to be able to have a successful relationship."}, {"response": 67, "author": "genie", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (13:11)", "body": "I have just discovered this thread and read with great interest all the comments posted here. I could not help but post my own rreaction, although I 'm sure someone has already expressed the same and much more eloquently than I can possibly do. Here we are discussing characters from a 200-year-old novel as though they were our friends, family, and acquaintances. For many of us, I'm sure, Elizabeth and Darcy have been part of our daily lives for over a year. For an author to have created such livin characters, with such nuances of personality, and for us to discover new and different facets of those characters and personalities (after all these months of dissecting!) and to find a new source of relevance to our own lives ... this to me, as a wannabe and frustrated writer and incurable ropmantic, is absolutely mind-boggling. Thank you, Jane Austen."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (13:41)", "body": "She had some magic, didn't she, Genie?"}, {"response": 69, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (11:29)", "body": "The enduring quality of Austen's work truly is amazing. I wonder what other writer has inspired so much devotion (maybe Shakespeare)? It's true -- in my daily life, I can always point to people & say, \"There's Mr. Collins! There goes Lady Catherine!\" The universality of JA's characters endures even after 200 years."}, {"response": 70, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (12:56)", "body": "Amy2 - Oh yes! In terms of universality, she's right up there. I've always thought that she and Chaucer shared the unique ability to reveal characters that are instantly recognizable, without being cariacatured \"types.\" And they (JA and Chaucer) share a sense of humor about their characters as well, which helps me enormously when I encounter these folks in real life....."}, {"response": 71, "author": "jane", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (13:31)", "body": "Amy2, Oh, dear! Yes, one does find Mr. Collinses and Lady Catherines in daily life, but I hope you find some Darcys, Elizabeths, and Mr. Bingleys, too! Jane"}, {"response": 72, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (10:49)", "body": "In the film industry, I run into a great deal of Lady C's & Mr. Collinses, Alas!"}, {"response": 73, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (23:11)", "body": "A little gem (amidst a treasure trove) from 'Middlemarch': 'He distrusted her affection; and what loneliness is more lonely than distrust?"}, {"response": 74, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (14:14)", "body": "Hilary -- that is beautiful. Good writing shows, does it not, in the ability to use just the right word in the best way. Would Darcy have completely trusted Elizabeth's affection if she had accepted his first proposal? At some future time, when the physical attraction was not so strong, would he have wondered whether she married him for his money/position etc.? If so, the distrust could have caused intense loneliness."}, {"response": 75, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:01)", "body": "I agree about the right words, Kathleen. The other is too hypothetical! But I know what you mean. 'The Look' scene, both in book and on film is all bound up with mutual love and trust, too, sandwiched neatly in between the two letter scenes. Lizzy is showing him that not only is his secret safe, but that she can be trusted to actively help protect his sister."}, {"response": 76, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (19:34)", "body": "Oh, yes, Hilary. The first part of the look is almost like saying \"this is too good to be true.\" Elizabeth is beautiful, but he sees that she is so much more. She is kind to Georgiana (encouraging G. to perform) as well as protective of her feelings and reputation. Elizabeth, much as she clearly resents Miss Bingley's comments, does not retaliate even though she could probably more than hold her own in a battle of wits. She acts in the best interest of the people who are becoming important to her. I love the description of Darcy's LOOK in the novel. \"While she [Elizabeth] spoke, an involuntary glance shewed her Darcy with an heightened complexion, earnestly looking at her . . . . Elizabeth's collected behaviour, however, soon quieted his emotion; . . . and the very circumstance which had been designed to turn his thoughts from Elizabeth, seemed to have fixed them on her more, and more cheerfully.\""}, {"response": 77, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "Sigh."}, {"response": 78, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (21:40)", "body": "Kathleen writes: I love the description of Darcy's LOOK in the novel. \"While she [Elizabeth] spoke, an involuntary glance shewed her Darcy with an heightened complexion, earnestly looking at her . . . . Elizabeth's collected behaviour, however, soon quieted his emotion; . . . and the very circumstance which had been designed to turn his thoughts from Elizabeth, seemed to have fixed them on her more, and more cheerfully.\" He was quieted. In the film, he looked relieved. Lizzy played hero! She rescued Georgiana. How nice it can be to be around strong women sometimes, he might have been thinking. How nice to be able of offload the hero duties."}, {"response": 79, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (10:52)", "body": "If Elizabeth had accepted Darcy after his first proposal. . .she never would have done do unless she were in love with him, and in their future marriage, I'm sure he could pick that up. As far as Lizzy rescuing Georgiana: I've often wondered why she didn't let Miss Bingly have it when she goes off about Wickham; but you're right, she was more concerned with trying to protect Georgiana. In fact, I've noticed that Lizzy rarely responds directly to Caroline's frontal attacks. She either lets them pass, or makes some concilatory remark. Great forebearance!"}, {"response": 80, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "'How nice it can be to be around strong women sometimes, he might have been thinking. How nice to be able of offload the hero duties.' What a good point, Amy. Do you think there is an element of feeling Caroline's social superiority in Lizzy's reactions to her, Amy2? I know she is not usually cowered by this, but sometimes I think proprietry it a reason for her holding her tongue."}, {"response": 81, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:18)", "body": "] Do you think there is an element of feeling Caroline's social superiority in Lizzy's reactions to her, Amy2? I know she is not usually cowered by this, but sometimes I think proprietry it a reason for her holding her tongue. __ I hope Lizzy would not admit any difference in their classes. (\"I am a gentleman's daughter?\") On the other hand, she is usually the guest when she is around Caroline, since Caroline does not often visit Lizzy. So maybe it is propriety, but not the class-conscious kind?"}, {"response": 82, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:25)", "body": "I think Lizzy knows Caroline very well, better than Caroline knows herself, perhaps. Lizzy is superior to Caroline, but does not feel the need to flaunt it. And Amy, you are probably right about Lizzy being the guest -- she talks to Caroline at Netherfield when Jane is sick & again at the ball, then she at Pemberley. But she does answer Caroline cuttingly when the Wickham warning is given at the ball. And she does stand up for herself when Caroline comments on Lizzy having no pleasure in anything but reading. Caroline's rudeness is at least partly due to the fact that she sees Lizzy as a rival for Darcy's attention. In the first part of the novel Lizzy doesn't see that, and wouldn't care anyway. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 177, "subject": "Ramble", "response_count": 194, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "Sorry. Did not mean to kill the new ramble."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (22:57)", "body": "The last few days of Ramble: ___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ austenarchive conference | Main Menu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12: Ramble Mon, Dec 2, 1996 (18:55) | ramblin' jack (terry) 71 new of 362 responses total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 291 of 362: Doug Larue (del) * Mon, Feb 3, 1997 (17:15) * 72 lines Relationship No ship, please. Not now. I haven't a captain nor a first mate \ufffd never mind a crew\ufffd It would take all my courage to try a relation inner tube. How about a relation floatie? Frozen margaritas in the pool some sultry summer night? Relation = Relative = Relativity = Energy = ME scared. Time flies when I'm fleeing fun. Marybeth Gradziel June 19, 1995 Reproduction We women need not be alone for long. We can grow friends. Find the right seed. Care for the sprout. and Enjoy the fruit of our labor. Marybeth Gradziel August 22, 1995 Dream Thought I understood it all one night. How men looking for women get mixed up, and flit from one to another \ufffd always looking for more. If only they knew\ufffd Inside every woman is an infinite number of other women just waiting for true love, trust and acceptance, to come out and love the man in an infinite number of womanly ways. Marybeth Gradziel August 24, 1995 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 292 of 362: mich (mich) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (16:26) * 1 lines Very nice Doug,thanks for sharing ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 293 of 362: Amy (Amy) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (19:51) * 1 lines OJ verdict is in, not read. I have this terrible feeling something awful is going to happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 294 of 362: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (20:12) * 1 lines I wish the media would stop making such a big deal of this. They are now saying that they will delay the President's state of the union address to wait for the reading of the verdict. Where are our priorities, for heaven sake??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 295 of 362: kathleen (elder) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (20:24) * 5 lines I agree, Joan too. I was going to shut off the tv when I heard that there was this conflict about what to cover! (However, the snow/ice storm here cut off the cable before I could get to the remote. :-)) It is delightful to come to this civilized oasis, but I had intended to pay some attention to the President's address. Oh well, maybe I'll be a more informed citizen tomorrow. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 296 of 362: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (20:25) * 1 lines At least ABC is going ahead with the President's address as planned. I plan to compliment them excessively! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 297 of 362: Johanne (JohanneD) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:26) * 1 lines This is really scarry ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 298 of 362: Johanne (JohanneD) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:27) * 3 lines This is really scarry but on the other hand there's a lot of parodies outthere ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 299 of 362: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:39) * 1 lines My TV is broken, so I'm listening over NPR -- they haven't broken into the speech to announce the OJ verdict yet ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 300 of 362: Henry (churchh) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:41) * 2 lines Last message outdated -- State of Union solid but unmemorable... OJ verdict: GUILTY!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 301 of 362: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:45) * 1 lines The ultimate victory! ABC showed the President's entire speech - and then was still able to tune in to the trial just in time to get the verdict live. HA HA HA! Take that CBS and NBC! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 302 of 362: Johanne (JohanneD) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (21:49) * 1 lines I'm speechless..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 303 of 362: Inko (Inko) * Tue, Feb 4, 1997 (22:15) "}, {"response": 3, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (23:12)", "body": "Last few days, part 2 ____ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 348 of 362: Ann (Ann) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (20:06) * 27 lines I have sent the NYTimes a E-letter in response to this article. I thought I would share it with all of you: Dear Sir or Madam, Your reporter, Christopher Lehmann-Haupt, is not the first to fall in love with the BBC/A&E production of Pride and Prejudice. This production in particular, and Jane Austen in general, has a large and loyal following on the internet. There are several sites which have been founded specifically for the purpose of discussing this production, and which have subsequently been broadened to include all of the works of Jane Austen. Other sites have been established solely to provide information and access to Au ten's works on the internet. Some of the URL's are as follows: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janeinfo.html http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/all/new (requires registration) http://www.bluemarble.net/~amyloo/wwwboard/ppbb.html It is suprising to me that she, of all authors, has such a strong following in cyberspace. I am continually amazed by the wide variety of Jane Austen information available on the internet, as well as the variety of people interested in her work. The virtual community which has been created around an interest in Jane Austen includes men and women, it includes people from the age of nine to well over sixty, and spans several continents and languages. It represents the best of what the internet can be by bringing together so many people in so many different walks of life, races, and cultures. We have come together and have indeed formed a community. We cry together when one of us suffers from a loss of a loved one, and we celebrate when one of us pa ses a milestone in life. We support eachother, even though few of us have ever met or even know what the others look like. We are grateful to Miss Austen for giving us the reason come together, and are grateful to the BBC/A&E production for introducing so many of us to her work. I am glad that your paper has recognised this wonderful production, which has brought so many people to enjoy Pride and Prejudice and Jane Austen, and which has brought so many of us together in cyberspace. Thank you, Ann Elizabeth Haker haker001@tc.umn.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 349 of 362: Donna (Donna) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (21:47) * 1 lines As Lizzie would say \"Beautiful\". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 350 of 362: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (22:03) * 1 lines Great news Ann. Whewwww! * slaps Ann a high five * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 351 of 362: Susan Christie (Susan) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (22:27) * 2 lines Ann, whatare we going to talk about next? Do keep us posted regarding your now recovered vehicle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 352 of 362: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (22:53) * 1 lines Did someone save the review -- it's expired from the NY Times site... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 353 of 362: Donna (Donna) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (23:00) * 1 lines Yes, it did expire. I did a search and found an old review about JA which listed your site HC. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 354 of 362: Amy (Amy) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (23:00) * 68 lines February 8, 1997 CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK / By CHRISTOPHER LEHMANN-HAUPT 'Pride and Prejudice': A Great Movie of a Great Book Plenty of bad movies have been made of good books, and a fair number of good movies have come from bad books. But a great movie of a great book? Speaking from a book reviewer's vantage point, I nominate Jane Austen's \"Pride and Prejudice,\" a co-production of the BBC and A&E, which is being rebroadcast by A&E in two parts, on Saturday and Sunday. I had missed the production the first time around, but when a friend lent me the tapes, I was instantly and completely caught up by the Bennet family and the thwarted romances of the two eldest daughters, Jane and Elizabeth. I did not get free until I had watched the entire five-hour production three or four times. The Bennets' world seemed more real than mine. I found myself repeating the memorable lines. I caught myself humming the music. As with a really good book, I discovered more and more to enjoy as I grew familiar with the main action and could concentrate on the smallest of details: for example, the way you can still overhear Miss Caroline Bingley (played with grand imperiousness by Anna Chancellor) after the camera "}, {"response": 4, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (08:29)", "body": "If anyone knows of someone in SE Michigan who has experience with Novell, my company is in desperate need - we need to hire 50 people with 2+ years of Novell experience by the end of March! If you know of someone, please let me know - or give them my e-mail address to contact me directly. Thanks!!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "mich", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "I received the following message today & thought you all may be interested. Scary thought indeed! Original Message Yesterday I got a notice from the Computer User's Group that most of the phone companies are petitioning the FCC to impose a per-minute charge for internet use. Guesstimates range from 4-5 cents per minute for the large companies up to 40 cents for the smaller ones. They contend that internet usage has/will hinder operation of the telephone network. The FCC has set up an email box for comments - all replies must be in by Feb. 13. The address is isp@fcc.gov. You'll notice the public hasn't been told about this - the Computer User's Group requested help in spreading the word so we'll have a chance to express our opinions. You know who will be eliminated by these charges - students, older folks on fixed incomes, the usual \"have-nots\"! With the number of computers in the U.S, increasing daily, a monthly charge of $1 would provide a healthy amount. Those prices are outrageous!! And it would certainly bring to a screeching halt the current spread of computer technology and commercial use to the general public."}, {"response": 6, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (12:38)", "body": "]And it would certainly bring to a screeching halt the current spread of computer technology and commercial use to the general public. Recently heard on a newscast, that is exactly what they want. A new internet superhighway would take close to ten years to create, as said in this article. The number of users are prolifirating at a much too fast pace to keep up with the current internet-superhighway thus rendering it not accessible, loading time interminable. There is a definite movement to stop the proliferation of unlimited-access-per-one-fee-a-month users by increasing (dramatically) the connection fees, namely pinpointing people with lower income."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (13:03)", "body": "Mich - Great minds, etc - I came here during work just to post this note that I got via e-mail today: Subject: FCC Internet Access Charge Reform Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:00:00 -0600 From: FlashNet Communications Organization: FlashNet Communications Dear FlashNet customer, We are writing you this to inform you of a very important matter currently under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a proposal with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your internet service. They contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the telephone network. It is our belief that internet usage will diminish if users were required to pay additional per minute charges. The FCC has created an email box for your comments; responses must be received by February 13, 1997. Send your comments to isp@fcc.gov and tell them what you think. Alert everyone in your addressbook, and most importantly the subject line should have \"CC Docket No 96-263\". FULL NAME AND ADDRESS SHOULD ACCOMPANY THE EMAIL otherwise it will be deleted. Again, the email to FCC is isp@fcc.gov More information can be found at the FCC website: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html Please forward this email to all your friends on the internet so all our voices may be heard. Thanks for your time. ****************************************** M. Scott Leslie President - FlashNet Communications a division of WebSite Management Co., Inc. ******************************************"}, {"response": 8, "author": "mich", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (13:19)", "body": "Kaffeine, thanks for the additional info, I've sent it out to everyone I know. For those of you who are going to email the FCC remember tommorow is the deadline."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (16:54)", "body": "Mich and Kathleen, thanks for the information. I sent in my email message. PS--Mich, I used your ramble as a starting point for my message. You say things most elequantly."}, {"response": 10, "author": "mich", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (17:12)", "body": "Carolyn, that's very sweet, thanks :-)"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (17:20)", "body": "How would they do this? How do they know one call from another--which is to an ISP and which to Aunt Millie? Not everyone has dedicated lines for their computer. How would they impose such a sceme-- By getting the ISP's to include it in the bill--driving the low cost ISP's out of business with more paper work, and driving away servers like mine who charge once a year? Or eavesdrop on the lines to hear when the internet is being used?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (18:36)", "body": "In Australia we are charged 40c for each local call - hence part of our chagrin when we have a connection fault and have to log on again. There is always government talk about the introduction of timed (and therefore extra-charged) local calls. I recently heard that this would happen in 1999. Who knows? I better just talk and write twice as fast, now, in case!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (23:22)", "body": "Ann -- apparently the existing telephone switching circuitry can be used to keep track of which calls are modem connections. (But I have no idea who it is that will be billed for the fees if the FCC approves them...)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (15:55)", "body": "Michael Jackson's a daddy. MTV has been celebrating. Odd to see a career retrospective spanning so many years when he's somebody I feel like I've grown up with. Have to say though, I think the Thriller album and that year (what would it have been -- 83, 84?) was to Michael as the big year of 1905 was to Einstein -- the one time when everything clicked into place as they never had before and never would again in just the same perfect way."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (19:58)", "body": "Enjoyed Deryshire Writers Guild - Now that Michael is a Daddy, maybe he will go away? You are right Amy, he will never recapture those glory years. ABC..."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Ann", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (20:07)", "body": "I feel so sorry for Jackson's and Madonna's kids. Not because I think they will be bad parents, but because of the increadibly intense media glare in which they will grow up. It isn't fair to those kids. So far Madonna has done a fantastic job of keeping her daughter away from the press--not one photo so far. She and Jackson are going to have to keep fighting the press like that throughout their kids childhoods."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (21:59)", "body": "I'm thankful for those kids. Now maybe their parents will bore themselves down and leave the rest of us alone! :)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (00:09)", "body": "Notice how subdued Madonna is now that she is a mother?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (03:58)", "body": "Indeed! I daresay that she is almost classy!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (10:52)", "body": "Happy Valentine's Day, everyone! This is a drawing I made some years ago and recently committed to JPEG... In other news, Alex Bennett reports that Ewan MacGregor (our dearest FC Weston Churchill) was recently subjected to a strip- and full-body-cavity-search at O'Hare...;)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "Very nice Kali. Happy St. Valentine's to all."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "Kali, the drawing is beautiful. I did not know we had another artist. A little incongruous with your \"other news,\" but you do like to jolt, don't you? Like me. A little outrageousness to pass the time."}, {"response": 23, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (12:00)", "body": "2nd try with graphics--to all this Valentide:"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (13:49)", "body": "Poor Carl! ;) Keep trying. Thanks, Amy...yeah, I guess I do like to jolt...I'm a little pervert, I guess...:)"}, {"response": 25, "author": "candace", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (20:31)", "body": "HAPPY VALENTINES DAY, YOU LITTLE TARTS...Uh I mean YOU SWEET HEARTS!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "Carl -- you're giving a local-filesystem URL for your image, but to be available to other people over the Internet it has to be on a computer with an HTTP server, and the URL has to be in special form to work with the HTTP server (not local filesystem path). If you don't have a homepage yourself, you could mail the image as an attachment to somebody who does."}, {"response": 27, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (23:30)", "body": "This mystery message will become clear when viewed in a monospaced font: X X X X XXXXX XXXXX X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X XXXXXXX XXXXXXX X X X XXXX XXXXX XXXXXXX X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX ___ ____ ___ ____( \\ .-' `-. / )____ (____ \\_____ / (O O) \\ _____/ ____) (____ `-----( ) )-----' ____) (____ _____________\\ .____. /_____________ ____) (______/ `-.____.-' \\______) K \\ IS\\Fr\\ SKISS\\om\\ KISSKIS \\Me\\ SKISSKISS sKISSKISSKISs sSKISSKISSKISSKIs sSKISSKISSKISSKISSKISs SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSKIS SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSKIS SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSK"}, {"response": 28, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (23:32)", "body": "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! No it won't - I forgot that stupid html removes runs of spaces. Sorry about that. :-( Well, Happy Valentine's Day anyway..."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (00:10)", "body": "X X X X XXXXX XXXXX X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X XXXXXXX XXXXXXX X X X XXXX XXXXX XXXXXXX X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX ___ ____ ___ ____( \\ .-' `-. / )____ (____ \\_____ / (O O) \\ _____/ ____) (____ `-----( ) )-----' ____) (____ _____________\\ .____. /_____________ ____) (______/ `-.____.-' \\______) K \\ IS\\Fr\\ SKISS\\om\\ KISSKIS \\Me\\ SKISSKISS sKISSKISSKISs sSKISSKISSKISSKIs sSKISSKISSKISSKISSKISs SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSKIS SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSKIS SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSK"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (00:16)", "body": "And I forgot about how the script puts in extra breaks. X X X X XXXXX XXXXX X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X XXXXXXX XXXXXXX X X X XXXX XXXXX XXXXXXX X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX ___ ____ ___ ____( \\ .-' `-. / )____ (____ \\_____ / (O O) \\ _____/ ____) (____ `-----( ) )-----' ____) (____ _____________\\ .____. /_____________ ____) (______/ `-.____.-' \\______) K \\ IS\\Fr\\ SKISS\\om\\ KISSKIS \\Me\\ SKISSKISS sKISSKISSKISs sSKISSKISSKISSKIs sSKISSKISSKISSKISSKISs SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSKIS SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSKIS SKISSKISSKISSKISSKISSK Cute, Joan. Is it one of those nice almond ones?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (00:18)", "body": "Still not right. I give up. Some things you just can't do with all the hidden tags created by these cgi scripts."}, {"response": 32, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (02:20)", "body": "Cute, Joan. Is it one of those nice almond ones? Of course! The only kind worth spending calories on! Still not right. But at least intelligible! How did you know where and how many spaces to put back in? (Not to meniton how did you get them to stay there!)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (07:31)", "body": "] But at least intelligible! How did you know where and how many spaces to put back in? (Not to meniton how did you get them to stay there!) __ [pre][/pre] tags"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (23:55)", "body": "Not sure where to post this Amy. The VirtViews for march have been scheduled and posted on the calendar. They are as follows: March 9 the Timothy Dalton version of Jane Eyre March 23 Cold Comfort Farm starring Emma's Kate Beckisale"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (00:04)", "body": "Ooohh. Good picks. We still have Katy's coming this week and coming soon threads, I think. I will also put them on the main page the week before each disucssion start date."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (00:41)", "body": "Amy, I'll add them to the \"Coming this Week\" topic the week before the discussion. Thanks."}, {"response": 37, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (11:35)", "body": "March 9 the Timothy Dalton version of Jane Eyre March 23 Cold Comfort Farm starring Emma's Kate Beckisale Two of my favorites, Sis. What a surprise! ;-)"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (15:24)", "body": "Myretta: Two of my favorites, Sis. What a surprise! ;-) Gosh! what are the odds?!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (00:08)", "body": "Really K! Poor Ewan......."}, {"response": 40, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "I can just picture it...;)"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (00:29)", "body": "If you've seen Trainspotting, I'm sure you could picture it......"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (00:48)", "body": "I did. Gross!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "I found out about two hours ago that I have a job interview tomorrow. It is with a major national engineering company, and I would love to get this one. Of course while on the phone it completely slipped my mind that I still haven't gotten my car back, but luckily I can borrow one from a neighbor. Help me out and think of me tomorrow afternoon! Thanks."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (20:23)", "body": "What time, Ann? We'll put the magic to work. What do you most want us to wish for you? That you will be calm, confident? Or what?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (20:24)", "body": "alright Ann! Good luck, you're in my prayers!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (20:34)", "body": "Ann. We all wish you luck. They'll be lucky to get you."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (20:41)", "body": "Good luck, Ann. I'll be thinking of you all afternoon - just to cover the time zones!!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (21:52)", "body": "Ann -- Breathe in deeply through your nose, hold this breath about 5 seconds, then exhale slowly through your mouth while chanting \"MAY THE FIRTH ...er..FORCE BE WITH ME! :-) My prayers and good thoughts are headed your way as I \"speak.\""}, {"response": 49, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (21:55)", "body": "Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!Good Luck!!!"}, {"response": 50, "author": "candace", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (22:55)", "body": "Go get 'em, Ann! They would be most fortunate to have you as an employee. Good Luck!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (23:11)", "body": "Will be sending lots of good thoughts your way, Ann! Show 'em how it's done!!!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (23:39)", "body": "Thanks guys!! (Kathleen--LOL!)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (04:23)", "body": "Ann, all my best wishes for your health and happiness. Will keep my thumbs for you. I am grateful that you found time to post the Darcy sequel;-) Any news on car status?"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (07:37)", "body": "Ann, the best of good luck."}, {"response": 55, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (13:57)", "body": "Ann, have had your best wishes in mind all day! Hope cyber-wishing works!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (15:45)", "body": "I want to know more about Ewan, what in the world did they find on his person and why would he be smuggling it into NYC. Some people just never learn. Did I see correctly that we will be virtviewing Jane Eyre with Tim Dalton, YEAH!!! I could watch that all day, everyday. And Cold Comfort Farm, just staring at Rufus is well worth it. All that eyeblinking, it was just for me BTW"}, {"response": 57, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (18:51)", "body": "All right, here\ufffds the scoop on the job interview. I think it went well, but he didn\ufffdt really seem very interested in asking me a lot of questions--I asked him a lot more than he asked me. The job being advertised required experience, which I, of course, do not have. But he liked my resume enough to ask me in anyway. The problem is that they don\ufffdt ever hire inexperienced people directly--they hire them from a temp agency on a contract basis. So he gave me the number of the two agencies he uses, and told me to get in touch with them. He seemed to imply that he needed a lot of people, and that I had a good chance at a job, but I really couldn\ufffdt tell. I\ufffdll call the agencies tomorrow, and see where it goes from there. Of course in the case of temporary employees, when the recession hits, I\ufffdm the first to go, and sometimes they have temps working for them for years without ever hiring them directly, but I think the agencies might pay benifits, so there may not be much difference anyway except in job security. Thanks for everyone for you cyber-wishes! p.s. I still haven\ufffdt gotten my car back from the shop. I will call them tomorrow and see what is taking so long."}, {"response": 58, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (19:52)", "body": "Ann, I hope you get the job. Even if you just get taken on as a temp, however, it could be just the break you need. Many people have started as temps and have been asked to stay on permanently; it's a great \"in.\" And btw, don't call yourself a \"temp\"--\"contractor\" or better yet \"consultant\" is much classier! ;-)"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (20:00)", "body": "Good for you, Ann. Contracting is kind of the future."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Becks", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (23:16)", "body": "I'm crossing my fingers for you, Ann!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "#58 Anne3 Ditto, Ann -- Anne3 took all my best lines!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (10:17)", "body": "Ann- your situation seems similar to what mine was about a year and a half ago....I did the \"temp thing,\" and have gotten a permanent job and training in a completely new field! Hope everything works out for you."}, {"response": 63, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (11:26)", "body": "I second Tracy, I was a \"contractor\" for two years and Now I'm at a wonderful job with lots of power. BTW, I was hired because I was the \"temp\" and they liked me."}, {"response": 64, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (14:21)", "body": "It does open doors and its the wave of the future, to be your own boss :) Sending good vibrations toward your success :)"}, {"response": 65, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (10:35)", "body": "Corporate Haikus Fields of white daisies Now stained by fresh blood -- Our offsite meeting has failed. Heat shimmers from the cars Around my parking place; They all want my job. Ponderous, the glacial ice Flows still faster than My corporation. Savor a deadline; it is merely an excuse to stay up all night. A marketing bird! He tells me, tells me, and then tells me what he told me. Sunset is never ensnared in a choice between cost and quality. (c) copyright 1993 by William Warriner"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (10:41)", "body": "Those are great, Myretta. I always get a laugh out of bloody haiku, which is typically so gentle. My 8-year old did this one when he was 7: And Henry has done variations on it, and I find I cannot object, since I've defaced some of his dearest pictures."}, {"response": 67, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (10:43)", "body": "My crocuses are up at least 2 inches and there is supposed to be a lot of snow. Now, I know they are hardy or some varieties would not be called \"Snow Crocus\" but should I cover them just in case? Nor not worry unless thing get sub-zero (heaven forbid)."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (13:06)", "body": "Amy, the U.S. Netherlands Flower Bulb Information Center (NFIC) may have some info for you. They are at www.bulb.com."}, {"response": 69, "author": "jane", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (13:19)", "body": "Amy, Snow would actually insulate and protect them. I have had tulips get snowed on in Boston when they were up a few inches, and they were fine (except those that got beheaded by a wayward snowplow). I am a very enthusiastic, although not particularly expert gardener. Jane"}, {"response": 70, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (13:44)", "body": "Amy I only did one \"variation\" on it, and you've done two on my baby picture..."}, {"response": 71, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (15:28)", "body": "Oh, I suppose that is right. Though dinos have come onto the scene in other guises."}, {"response": 72, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (15:37)", "body": "It was Chicago, Laura, and I don't have any more information...you're right...some people never learn!"}, {"response": 73, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (20:37)", "body": "There is a moon like the one in Moonstruck out tonight over Central Indiana. Makes me want to try to drive there."}, {"response": 74, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (21:08)", "body": "Afraid that will be a long drive, because it is already rising here in California. Looks as if you could get out a ladder and climb right on up."}, {"response": 75, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "Wait a minute. We've got that moon here in New England! Let's all meet under it."}, {"response": 76, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (02:23)", "body": ""}, {"response": 77, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (02:24)", "body": "They dined on mince and slices of quince, Which they ate with a runcible spoon; And hand in hand, on the edge of the sand, They danced by the light of the moon. ---Edward Lear"}, {"response": 78, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (04:19)", "body": "Lovely thought. It's comforting to think about commonalities...the moon, the atomic particles we breathe, our communion in cyberspace...the world is really much smaller than it seems. I feel very close to you guys...even though I've never met most of you in person, and probably never will. The Net really can be a spiritual place."}, {"response": 79, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (16:24)", "body": "This was posted recently to AUSTEN-L: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:02:43 -0800 From: L R Subject: Way OT - English Student Humor Way Off Topic - Not Austen related - Feel free to skip... I read this today and thought perhaps some of the people on this list who teach English / Literature might relate to this. Or at least find it funny. Or maybe not. Lura This assignment was actually turned in by two English students: Rebecca <last name deleted> and Gary <last name deleted> English 44A SMU Creative Writing Prof Miller In-class Assignment for Wednesday Today we will experiment with a new form called the tandem story. The process is simple. Each person will pair off with the person sitting to his or her immediate right. One of you will then write the first paragraph of a short story. The partner will read the first paragraph and then add another paragraph to the story. The first person will then add a third paragraph, and so on back and forth. Remember to reread what has been written each time in order to keep the story coherent. The story is over when both agree a conclusion has been reached. At first, Laurie couldn't decide which kind of tea she wanted. The chamomile, which used to be her favorite for lazy evenings at home, now reminded her too much of Carl, who once said, in happier times, that he liked chamomile. But she felt she must now, at all costs, keep her mind off Carl. His possessiveness was suffocating, and if she thought about him too much her asthma started acting up again. So chamomile was out of the question. Meanwhile, Advance Sergeant Carl Harris, leader of the attack squadron now in orbit over Skylon 4, had more important things to think about than the neuroses of an air-headed asthmatic bimbo named Laurie with whom he had spent one sweaty night over a year ago. \"A.S. Harris to Geostation 17,\" he said into his transgalactic communicator. \"Polar orbit established. No sign of resistance so far...\" But before he could sign off a bluish particle beam flashed out of nowhere and blasted a hole through his ship's cargo bay. The jolt from the direct hit sent him flying out of his seat and across the cockpit. He bumped his head and died almost immediately, but not before he felt one last pang of regret for psychically brutalizing the one woman who had ever had feelings for him. Soon afterwards, Earth stopped its pointless hostilities towards the peaceful farmers of Skylon 4. \"Congress Passes Law Permanently Abolishing War and Space Travel.\" Laurie read in her newspaper one morning The news simultaneously excited her and bored her. She stared out the window, dreaming of her youth -- when the days had passed unhurriedly and carefree, with no newspapers to read, no television to distract her from her sense of innocent wonder at all the beautiful things around her. \"Why must one lose one's innocence to become a woman?\" she pondered wistfully. Little did she know, but she has less than 10 seconds to live. Thousands of miles above the city, the Anu'udrian mothership launched the first of its lithium fusion missiles. The dim-witted wimpy peaceniks who pushed the Unilateral Aerospace Disarmament Treaty through Congress had left Earth a defenseless target for the hostile alien empires who were determined to destroy the human race. Within two hours after the passage of the treaty the Anu'udrian ships were on course for Earth, carrying enough firepower to pulverize the entire planet. With no one to stop them they swiftly initiated their diabolical plan. The lithium fusion missile entered the atmosphere unimpeded. The President, in his top-secret mobile submarine headquarters on the ocean floor off the coast of Guam, felt the inconceivably massive explosion which vaporized Laurie and 85 million other Americans. The President slammed his fist on the conference table. \"We can't allow this! I'm going to veto that treaty! Let's blow 'em out of the sky!\" This is absurd. I refuse to continue this mockery of literature. My writing partner is a violent, chauvinistic, semi-literate adolescent. Yeah? Well, you're a self-centered tedious neurotic whose attempts at writing are the literary equivalent of Valium. You total $*&. Stupid %&#$!."}, {"response": 80, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "I saw that. Reminds me of the kind of conversations I carry on with my eighteen-year-old brother. Alternative realities again."}, {"response": 81, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (20:33)", "body": ""}, {"response": 82, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (20:42)", "body": "Congratulations, Ann!! So glad you have WHEELS again!"}, {"response": 83, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (20:55)", "body": "HIP, HIP, HOORAYYYYYY!!!!!!"}, {"response": 84, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (22:54)", "body": "Too cool, Ann! Makes me feel like dancing for you!"}, {"response": 85, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "Verrry glad for you!"}, {"response": 86, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:33)", "body": "Now go interview."}, {"response": 87, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (06:34)", "body": "Congrats, Ann!"}, {"response": 88, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (13:28)", "body": "What relief Ann, and is it fit to drive away in...? Was glad to meet you in chat!"}, {"response": 89, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:20)", "body": "1st. Finally got in. Spring seems slow and jumpy. 2nd. Glad you got your car back, Ann. Make sure you install one of those steering wheel locks and a secondary electronic device, if you are going to park it on the street. You need locking redundancy. 3rd. I recently purchased the l995 Edition of Jane Austen's Letters. Interesting.It appears that Cass. Austen destroyed some letters but only those relating to graphic descriptions of illnessses or harsh criticisms of her relatives.Bits and pieces of her letters are still being found. This edition is much easier to read than the Brabant Edition. Proper paragraphing and so forth. You can buy it from the Jane Austen Book Store in Chicago for $55.00. Ha dbound. This edition edited by Deirdre Le Faye. 4th Seems there is a movement afoot to tax internet transactions. I can't remember precisely where I read that. It's unlikely given the present Republican domination of Congress and the current anti-tax mood that such an effort will succeed but you never can tell."}, {"response": 90, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "1st. Finally got in. Spring seems slow and jumpy. 2nd. Glad you got your car back, Ann. Make sure you install one of those steering wheel locks and a secondary electronic device, if you are going to park it on the street. You need locking redundancy. 3rd. I recently purchased the l995 Edition of Jane Austen's Letters. Interesting.It appears that Cass. Austen destroyed some letters but only those relating to graphic descriptions of illnessses or harsh criticisms of her relatives.Bits and pieces of her letters are still being found. This edition is much easier to read than the Brabant Edition. Proper paragraphing and so forth. You can buy it from the Jane Austen Book Store in Chicago for $55.00. Ha dbound. This edition edited by Deirdre Le Faye. 4th Seems there is a movement afoot to tax internet transactions. I can't remember precisely where I read that. It's unlikely given the present Republican domination of Congress and the current anti-tax mood that such an effort will succeed but you never can tell."}, {"response": 91, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "1st. Finally got in. Spring seems slow and jumpy. 2nd. Glad you got your car back, Ann. Make sure you install one of those steering wheel locks and a secondary electronic device, if you are going to park it on the street. You need locking redundancy. 3rd. I recently purchased the l995 Edition of Jane Austen's Letters. Interesting.It appears that Cass. Austen destroyed some letters but only those relating to graphic descriptions of illnessses or harsh criticisms of her relatives.Bits and pieces of her letters are still being found. This edition is much easier to read than the Brabant Edition. Proper paragraphing and so forth. You can buy it from the Jane Austen Book Store in Chicago for $55.00. Ha dbound. This edition edited by Deirdre Le Faye. 4th Seems there is a movement afoot to tax internet transactions. I can't remember precisely where I read that. It's unlikely given the present Republican domination of Congress and the current anti-tax mood that such an effort will succeed but you never can tell."}, {"response": 92, "author": "summit", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (12:00)", "body": "My my, Carl, you really did want us to read your memo here! :-) I found this quote recently and find it interesting: \"Small minds discuss persons. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.\" I suppose we all cycle through each of those categories, but we probably tend toward one much of the time in conversation..."}, {"response": 93, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (16:36)", "body": "Are you trying to tell the droolers something, Wendy? ;) Anyway, it's an interesting thought...although it is very difficult to ruminuate ideas when one has a bad bearing on history, current events, and notable people. I guess the key lies in the ultimate use of events and people as illustrations in drawing larger philosophical and theoretical conclusions."}, {"response": 94, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (00:05)", "body": ""}, {"response": 95, "author": "Ann", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "AARRGGHH!! I hate trying to install new hardware on PC's!!!! I managed to do little more than disable my modem. I finally managed to find a backup of my config.sys file, and that got it working again, so I can come here and ramble. I am trying to get three pieces of hardware/softeware to work together. The problem is that each one wants the other installed first. None of them will take the lead. I get so frustrated doing this and the documentation is absolutely nonexistent! AARRGGHH !"}, {"response": 96, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (18:53)", "body": "Ann -- greatest sympathies to you. Documentation is skimpy at best, I do know that! Perhaps you should take a nice cleansing breath, and then have a nice lie down! (Or maybe a good stiff drink?!) A new professional journal arrived today: North American Actuarial Journal. [I am an actuary/professor by career choice, and Austen fan by life choice. ;)] Imagine my delight when I noticed the article, \"Actuarial Issues in the Novels of Jane Austen\" by Daniel D. Skwire. This may not seem like much to the rest of you, but I have found another actuary who knows Jane Austen's books (he mentions all six novels in his article). And there are some very positive comments, of a general nature, about the books, as well as the reported actuarial issues. Skwire's best \"actuarial\" cite is in S&S when John & Fanny Dashwood are discussing what he should do for the Dashwood widow & daughters. He quotes Fanny's comment that \"people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them,\" and goes on to show that a true value of the annuity would probably be around the $1500 pounds which John had proposed previously. My personal favorite of Skwire's citations is from P&P. He discusses the entail, and then Charlotte's acceptance of Mr Collins' proposal. \"On learning of the engagement, Charlotte's mother expresses her own actuarial tendencies [italics mine]: 'Lady Lucas began directly to calculate with more interest than the matter had ever excited before, how many years longer Mr. Bennet was likely to live.' So our JA was an early appreciator of my own profession. :-) This pleases almost more than I can express. I shall now ramble on to other topics."}, {"response": 97, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (19:38)", "body": "What a treat that must have been for you, Kathleen. Does the article explain about the Four Percents?"}, {"response": 98, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (19:44)", "body": "Kathleen, how great for you that you could put your professional and avocational lives together in such a way! Did the article, by any chance, mention the life expectancy in JA's days? I'd be very interested to know for Little Fitz purposes - I fear I have people dying off too young!!"}, {"response": 99, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (19:56)", "body": "] Does the article explain about the Four Percents? The article references Daniel Pool's book (What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew). The assumption about the investments in the 4 per cents is that it is government bonds (or the like -- national debt, anyway), and the rate would generally be 4% or 5%. ] Did the article, by any chance, mention the life expectancy in JA's days? I'd be very interested to know for Little Fitz purposes - I fear I have people dying off too young!! There is a mortality table (from Carlisle, England -- published in 1815). I shall do some calculating and get back to you."}, {"response": 100, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:14)", "body": "Cool, but wow, scary in a way to think so. Leave it to a bunch of maniacs like us to get all excited about a mortality table from the 1800s."}, {"response": 101, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:14)", "body": "Kathleen, as a former CAS student, I'm more interested if it mentioned the designation process of JA's days."}, {"response": 102, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:22)", "body": "Cindy -- do you mean the actuarial designation? No, the article only discussed actuarial concepts. A former CAS student? Did you quit or finish the exams? I teach undergraduates, some of whom have gone on to take CAS exams. I myself am an FSA (that's Fellow of the Society of Actuaries, btw)."}, {"response": 103, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:36)", "body": "After goose-egging 4, having my first child during 5 (yes, I was a noshow, but they said they understood), I was looking at the limit of my student status. I moved over into the Controller area of the same company, refusing to find out if the Actuarial dept. mgmt. meant what they said of a third consequent failure. This is now all ancient history, I've not been on the exam path three times longer than I ever was. It's uncanny, though, I can still easily conjure up those \"pit-of-the-stomach\" feelingsove checking the mailbox. For everyone else in the sane world, the Casualty Actuarial Society and the Society of Actuaries separately and together administer 10-part examination process which allows for baby actuaries to attain designation levels. Yes, the career was fairly recently the best (?), but every student everywhere is certain that the surveyor disregarded the effects of the grueling exam process. (Keep in mind, the test designers, graders, and takers tend to all be overachiever math majors) Did I explain that okay, Kathleen? I hope not too much venom comes through, anymore. It has been over ten years, but it's hard to shake!"}, {"response": 104, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:38)", "body": "The career was recently advertised in some publication as the \"Best\". I don't think I said that quite right up there."}, {"response": 105, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (22:23)", "body": "Cindy -- I understand you (I almost said I feel your pain!), and I know that same feeling. Although \"losses\" no longer count once you've finished with 10 \"wins\" it was a grueling time. ______________________ Inko -- regarding life expectancy in JA's time, I have finished some calculations. Based on the aforementioned Carlisle table (which is considered to be fairly representative of the era), a newborn could expect to live less than 40 years primarily due to high rates of infant mortality. A child who lived to the age of 10 could expect to live into his/her 50's or 60's. The Carlisle table is unisex (i.e., not separated out for men and women), so the effects of maternity on women's life expectancy cannot be looked at. The risk to a woman during childbirth was considerably higher than now, though. Of course all this is based on averages. Individual situations could be different. Perhaps, Inko, the people you are \"killing\" off could die from accidents or some epidemic?"}, {"response": 106, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (22:44)", "body": "Kathleen, goes to show how easily it all comes right back to the surface, I've been nervous about what your answer would be! Over ten years later, no less! such tremblings of my nerves and flutterings in my head, spasms in my side, yet noone knows how much I suffer..."}, {"response": 107, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (23:09)", "body": "Such tremblings! You don't know what I suffer!!"}, {"response": 108, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (23:14)", "body": "(Be patient - the above may take a couple of minutes to transfer)"}, {"response": 109, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (12:39)", "body": "Just found this. Now this is my kind of diet! 1. If you eat something and no one sees you eat it, it has no calories. 2. If you drink a diet soda with a candy bar, the calories in the candy bar are canceled out by the diet soda. 3. When you eat with someone else, calories don't count if you don't eat more than they do. 4. Foods used for medicinal purposes NEVER count, such as hot chocolate, brandy, toast and Sara Lee cheesecake. 5. If you fatten up everyone else around you, you look thinner. 6. Movie-related foods (Milk Duds, buttered popcorn, Junior Mints, Red Hots, Tootsie Rolls, etc.) do not have additional calories because they are part of the entertainment package and not part of one's personal fuel. 7. Cookie pieces contain no calories--the process of breaking causes calorie leakage. 8. Things licked off knives and spoons have no calories if you are in the process of preparing something. Examples are peanut butter on a knife used to make a sandwich and ice cream on a spoon used to make a sundae. 9. Food that have the same color have the same number of calories. Examples: spinach and pistachio ice cream; mushrooms and white chocolate. NOTE: Chocolate is a universal color and may be substituted for any other food color. 10. Anything consumed while standing over the kitchen sink has no calories."}, {"response": 110, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (12:48)", "body": "ROTFLOL"}, {"response": 111, "author": "MSO", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (13:19)", "body": "I wasn't sure where to post this but I thought this might be the best place In the book The Making Of Jane Austen's Emma there is a quote from Prunella Scales where she says she was in an old black and white BBC serial of P&P. She also mentioned that Darcy was played by Peter Cushing and Mr Bennet by Milton Rosmer, also that it was filmed live which may be why it has never shown up on video."}, {"response": 112, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (13:28)", "body": "PETER CUSHING?? I'm all astonishment!"}, {"response": 113, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "Who's Peter Cushing? And who did Prunella Scales play?"}, {"response": 114, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (13:47)", "body": "Peter Cushing played Dr. Who in the movies \"Dr. Who and the Daleks\" and \"Daleks--Invasion of Earth 2150 AD\". (Does that clear it up?). He's a British actor who has chewed the scenery in a lot of classic b-horror film work, such as \"Curse of Frankenstein\", \"The Abominable Snowman of the Himalayas\", \"Brides of Dracula\", \"Dr. Terror's House of Horrors\", \"The Skull\", \"Island of the Burning Doomed\" (great title!), and \"Bloodsuckers\". He also played Sherlock Holmes in one of the many \"Hound of the Baskervilles\" adaptations. Somewhat more recently, he was in the movie of \"Tales from the Crypt\", and the Zucker Brother's (of \"Airplane\" fame) \"Top Secret\". And of course he's probably best known as the Death Star captain in \"Star Wars\"."}, {"response": 115, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "Yes, of couse. I'm afraid it was the Star Wars reference that I got... HIM??? as DARCY??? unbelievable."}, {"response": 116, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (15:30)", "body": ""}, {"response": 117, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (15:35)", "body": "One purple crocus ready to open tomorrow!"}, {"response": 118, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (16:36)", "body": "We still have almost a foot of snow on the ground!"}, {"response": 119, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (16:49)", "body": "Sorry, Ann. I remember those Northern waits for the thaw. I got to have some windows open today. Some neighbors did too, and I am glad for it. There is the most lovely flute duet being performed for me right now. That kind of harmony... I don't remember what it is called... where neither part is consistently higher or lower than the other but weaves in and out and up and down and questions and replies? First I thought the music must be the force coaxing the crocus up. Now I see this music is not exactly right for purple flowers. If it could make flowers, they would be peach colored."}, {"response": 120, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (17:46)", "body": "RE #109: Cheryl, love that diet. I think I'll try it next time I go to the movies, or when standing over the kitchen sink!!;-)"}, {"response": 121, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:12)", "body": "RE #109: Cheryl, love that diet. Printed one out to take into work -- they'll love it. Thanks for sharing, Cheryl!"}, {"response": 122, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:33)", "body": "Not only do I love the diet, Cheryl, I could have written it. Amy, I could see the crocuses and hear the music and smell imminent spring in the air."}, {"response": 123, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:42)", "body": "Cheryl,that's really health food!!:-) Wow if we got together to have a high tea there would be no calories considered at all, I assure you. Would love to watch your crocus open Amy! It was not injured by snow or chill then? That's good. I saw some green tiny noses on garden surface today they will grow and I shall tell you into what colour and shape. Spring is in the air. Birds are starting to return here."}, {"response": 124, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:52)", "body": "in Just- spring when the world is mud- luscious the little lame ballonman whistles far and wee and eddieandbill come running from marbles and piracies and it's spring when the world is puddle-wonderful the queer old balloonman whistles far and wee and bettyandisabel come dancing from hop-scotch and jump-rope and it's spring and the goat-footed balloonMan whistles far and wee e.e. cummings It's rained so much here today and yesterday that this poem came to mind. It's one of my favorites."}, {"response": 125, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (19:03)", "body": "That would be a good one to post in the poetry conference topic: poems about spring."}, {"response": 126, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (19:19)", "body": "OK, Terry, I posted it at the poetry conference.:-)"}, {"response": 127, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "I adore e e cummings and have since high school. Thanks for sharing, and for bringing back a memory."}, {"response": 128, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (20:50)", "body": "Myretta: Not only do I love the diet, Cheryl, I could have written it. But sister, it neglected your favorite, which I have decided to incorporate into my own diet plans... 11. Anything eaten in the car is devoid of calories, for you are moving and thus burning off any potential calories as you eat!"}, {"response": 129, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:04)", "body": "I have been trying to send you e-mail with no success. On another thread, you talked about downloading wav files with P&P2 stuff. I've \"searched\" for those files with no luck. Would you mind either responding on here or e-mailing me info on where to find this stuff? Thanks!"}, {"response": 130, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:05)", "body": "Meggin, I have been trying to send you e-mail with no success. On another thread, you talked about downloading wav files with P&P2 stuff. I've \"searched\" for those files with no luck. Would you mind either responding on here or e-mailing me info on where to find this stuff? Thanks!"}, {"response": 131, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:34)", "body": "Amy, thinking about \"peach-colored flute duets\" Just that phrase sounds poetic. I'll have to ponder that with a glass of wine. speaking of spring, we were all sweating to death today. Have no idea just how hot it was. Supposed to be only mid-70s, but we blew that away, I'm sure! All of you waiting for the thaw won't be able to relate to the excitement we are experiencing anticipating our first-ever ski trip. Been over 12 years since it snowed here (except the 2 or 3 flakes we search for each winter with the kids: \"Is that it?\"). Can't wait! Had to buy clothes the likes of which we may never need again. The kids have been ounting down since New Year's."}, {"response": 132, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:54)", "body": "Cookie pieces contain no calories--the process of breaking causes calorie leakage. ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho ha ha ha hee hee hee ho ho ho"}, {"response": 133, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:55)", "body": "Amy: One purple crocus ready to open tomorrow! Wysteria buds are swelling - will open any day now!"}, {"response": 134, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:03)", "body": "Susan, you said: ] Meggin, I have been trying to send you e-mail with no success. On ] another thread, you talked about downloading wav files with P&P2 ] stuff. I've \"searched\" for those files with no luck. Would you mind ] either responding on here or e-mailing me info on where to find this ] stuff? Thanks! I tried responding to your message at the address in the header (Susan@206.171.46.201) but my mailer protests that that is not a vaild address. I don't recall Meggin making any comments about wav files, but I have - might this comment be directed to me? I've recently posted a list of about 300 soundbytes which have been uploaded to the Spring - the list is in the Austentest conference in topic 17."}, {"response": 135, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:26)", "body": "might this comment be directed to me? If you made the comment about wav files, then I assume I somehow got the sender wrong. Thanks so much for the info; I'll check it out posthaste!"}, {"response": 136, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (01:59)", "body": "I wore shorts today. Unbelievable."}, {"response": 137, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (06:46)", "body": "Would that be Wisteria sinensis,Joan, too? If so, that's waht we call \"blue rain\". And it is not safe all over Sweden. Might very likely freeze dead during the winter. But I got inspired by Amy and have done a search in garden under last years dry and greyish-brown leaves I found one yellow crocus! Of the tiny botanical kind..."}, {"response": 138, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (06:56)", "body": "Susan, I downloaded the wav files from this site: http://www.ualberta.ca/~marilyn/wav.html#Sound files My correct e-mail address is meggin57@aol.com"}, {"response": 139, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (12:07)", "body": "This place stays busy!!I loaned my homemade tape of P&P2 to a friend while away. and she was thrilled...Stayed up until 1am and was not finished! So she feigned anger, (she has a one year old) and wanted to know why I had waited so long to loan it to her, and why didn't I tell her it was 6 hours!! She loved it!"}, {"response": 140, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (13:32)", "body": ""}, {"response": 141, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "Ohhh. Thanks, J."}, {"response": 142, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (14:39)", "body": "I love the coming of spring too. It brings optimism to me. Here it is not as exaggerated, but I have experienced a Scottish spring. Here my Claret Ash is threatening autumn with the faintest tinge of pink in its leaves. I wonder what music did bring up your crocus, Amy?"}, {"response": 143, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (15:03)", "body": "Hil, the crocuses are just outside my front door, so likely their inspiration was that old favorite and standard, \"Hurry Up, Aaron and Yes You Do Have to Wear Socks and Make Sure the Door is Closed; You Want the Cats to Escape and be Smashed by a Car's Tire?\""}, {"response": 144, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (15:52)", "body": "Oh, Amy, we play that one at our house quite often, but, alas, no crocuses!"}, {"response": 145, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:46)", "body": "Love to hear it sung, Amy! We might get the desired response at least once because of novelty! Rap or heavy metal? Or do you think contralto would have more impact? 'Your socks, your socks, your-or-or-or so-o-o-o-cks, your sockkkks'. No, I think crocuses must have more discernment. Some little zephyr of purple airwaves must be percolating gently undetected out under your door."}, {"response": 146, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (17:02)", "body": "Haven't looked at this topic for awhile, so please let me say: 1) Ann -- buy a Mac; 2) Peter Cushing played Grand Moff Tarkin in STAR WARS (he has since died) 3) Spring? What's Spring? (there are no seasons in Los Angeles)."}, {"response": 147, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (17:49)", "body": "Cheryl -- regarding your spendid diet, I have yet another one: No calories in potato chips if you open the bag by hand -- I repeat do not use a scissors or knife -- the act of struggling while trying to open the bag by hand is enough exercise to burn off the calories of the chips! Regarding spring flowers -- when my husband and I purchased our home 8 years ago, we joined the \"Flower of the Month Club\" with much anticipation of how beautiful we would make our yard -- Month after month we ordered way to many bulbs without the proper time and attention to plant them. My husband was afraid that they would go bad so he purchased a huge plastic bag of dirt, opened the top and just shoved the bulbs into the bag. He placed the bag \"temporarily\" beside our deck. For the last eight years we have had the most beautiful tulips, daffadils, & iris' bloom from that ugly plastic bag. We have now nick named it the \"K-Tel Bag 'O Bulbs\". :-)"}, {"response": 148, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (18:11)", "body": "'Your socks, your socks, your-or-or-or so-o-o-o-cks, your sockkkks'. __ I can hear it, exactly, Hil! You are a poet. Candace: the bag was my first LOL of the day. Thanks"}, {"response": 149, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (19:13)", "body": "Candace: LOL re your bag of bulbs. Sounds like my kind of gardening--me of the black thumbs, whatever I plant dies!! Amy2: I thought your LA seasons were shake, bake, or flood!;-)"}, {"response": 150, "author": "geekman", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (21:28)", "body": "In Canberra, Hilary experiences the changing colours of the seasons and the chill icy winds off the mountain peaks. Here in Newcastle it gets cool in Winter, but we don't really thrill in the seasonal changes of places inland and south of here, such as Canberra. We've a more temperate climate of wet and dry seasons. We are heading into our dry season. Those short but cloudless, sunny June days beckon. Mmmm. Great for photographing landscapes, and gardens. Beautiful crocuses Johanne."}, {"response": 151, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (21:32)", "body": "Candace, makes me want to go find our Bag O' Bulbs. We just may have a horticulture experiment going in the corner of our garage!"}, {"response": 152, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (21:33)", "body": "84 F here yesterday, BTW. Much cooler today, though, storm front blew through late last night."}, {"response": 153, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (21:39)", "body": "Would that be Wisteria sinensis, Sure would. :-) And it is not safe all over Sweden. Might very likely freeze dead during the winter. Right - about 5 years ago we had an exceptionally cold week in which peoples' water pipes froze and burst - and I lost part of the wysteria, which grows all along the edge of the roof on the south side of the house. But the old, woody part survived and came back as good as new the next year."}, {"response": 154, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (00:39)", "body": "You know, it is pretty warm here. SPring is on its way...... But the real reason I am so cheery: I LEAVE FOR EUROPE ON APRIL 23!!!!"}, {"response": 155, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (01:15)", "body": "Rebecca! You are not by any chance passing through the middle parts of Sweden are you? And Joan, too. I envy you that old wooden part of a plant; that's when you can relax and consider it a faithful part of your garden that wont disappear when you are away for a month .Did you ever mention the name of that rose under whome you placed your xmas gift (frog of manure was it?)? I'm to have a blossom on my chestnut branch in the kitchen!!!"}, {"response": 156, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (01:22)", "body": "Ann dearest, are you free to come visit Pemberley? :-)"}, {"response": 157, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (01:27)", "body": ".Did you ever mention the name of that rose under whome you placed your xmas gift (frog of manure was it?)? Ah - my \"PooPet\" (also known as a \"stool toad\") is sitting at the feet of \"Fragrant Memory\" (recently renamed from Jadis), a bright pink tea rose with a wonderful fragrance."}, {"response": 158, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (01:47)", "body": "Who names roses?"}, {"response": 159, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (01:57)", "body": "\"Who names roses? ' The ARA, of course. It's like the AKC only for roses. And I suppose that other nations have organizations that name their newly developed varieties as well."}, {"response": 160, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (03:38)", "body": "AKC for roses...that's a snort...do they have toy and working divisions for flowers, too?"}, {"response": 161, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (08:36)", "body": "I must have been visiting in the morning before work and now I'm afraid you are sound asleep, sweet Cheryl! But we shall conker this time gap that tries to drive us apart. The time is nothing ! It is a mere human invention. See you soon."}, {"response": 162, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (08:39)", "body": "Yeepee my first emoticon by heart...I thought there must be one called determined and there was. Good old reliable Ann!"}, {"response": 163, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "I'm curious as to the affluence level of Mr Bingley. If he has an income of 5000 pounds/year, what would be that buying power be in terms of current US dollars? Anybody have any ideas?"}, {"response": 164, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (14:42)", "body": "Why Carl , are you considering the purchase of Netherfield ;-)? Seriously I think there may be something about this comparative wealth of Bingley and Darcy on Henry's site.I have seen it somewhere. Don't remember the particulars..."}, {"response": 165, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (14:43)", "body": "of Bingley's and Darcy's (was what I meant to write). Have you found the best house yet?"}, {"response": 166, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:38)", "body": "Carl, I posted this months ago, and it's probably somewhere in the archives, but I'll post it again. This is from a footnote in my Norton's Critical Edition of P&P and I'm not sure that it's completely accurate, but will give you some idea: Charles Roberts (quoted in James Heldman, \"How Wealthy is Mr. Darcy, Really\"[Persuasions 12, 1990]38-49) calculates that an 1810 pound is worth about $33.00 in current U.S. dollars. (Roberts used the value of the dollar in 1988 in his calculations,and for these necessarily imprecise estimates, his equivalences are still useful.) Mr. Bennet's annual income is therefore about $66,000; Darcy's annual income is over $330,000 (10,000 pounds) and Bingley's about $165,000 (5,000 pounds). Because taxes on i come were relatively low, labor cheap, and landowners like Darcy and Mr. Bennet could partially supply their households from their own farms, the purchasing power of these incomes was undoubtedly greater in Austen's time than in our own. Perhaps a more accurate measure of the affluence of Austen's characters is that in 1810 the nominal annual income of agricultural laborers was 42 pounds, of skilled laborers between 55 and 90 pounds, of clerks 178 pounds, and of lawyers 447 pounds."}, {"response": 167, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:21)", "body": "do they have toy and working divisions for flowers, too? Well, they have quite a number of categories - Modern Roses: Floribunda, Grandflora, Hybrid Teas, Miniature Roses, Polyanthas; Old Roses: Hybrid Perpetuals, Tea Roses, China Roses - many come in bush, tree, hedge, and/or climbing varieties... :-)"}, {"response": 168, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:31)", "body": "Unfortunately Ann, I will not be visiting Sweden (frown)"}, {"response": 169, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:41)", "body": "Carl, the question of the modern value of Regency incomes is discussed on my site in the Austen-L \"Pre-FAQ\" at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/pre-faq.txt Inko -- I added your thing in there back when you posted it on the old board..."}, {"response": 170, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (15:15)", "body": "Now the purple crocus has a race going on with a yellow one on the other side of the porch. I imagine the William Tell Overture, only slowed down so slow that a triplet that would normally be played in a half second takes 24 hours, 8 hours for every note."}, {"response": 171, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:15)", "body": "imagine the William Tell Overture, only slowed down LOL da da da da da,dadidadidadidadidadida da da , Is it a bit Disneylike only l-e-n-te-m-e-n-t and what is the background like ? Have been away on library meeting all day so I have not seen my yellow crocus at all but we have had a sunny but windy day so anything may have happened under those leaves..."}, {"response": 172, "author": "churchh", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:39)", "body": "I once read I science fiction story about a mythical drug that slowed humans down about 1000 times, so that you could see plants growing; only it had a slightly sinister angle, about how plants often struggle with each other, and the combat might even seem vicious if it were speeded up 1000 times or so... Can't remember the author or title of the story now..."}, {"response": 173, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (19:38)", "body": "HC -- I read w/ great laughter and pleasure your posting to austen-l regarding the potential horror of a newsgroup. Talk about LOL. I hope none of my students were passing by whilst I was reading/laughing/snorting! (At least I had already finished my coffee, so I did not spit all over the computer monitor.) I would like to know more about this matter, but I suppose I shall if I keep up with the daily digests."}, {"response": 174, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (21:45)", "body": "Henry, you probably do not approve of Carl Sagan's fiction any more than some of the other stuff you stick up your nose at. BUT! In Contact , which I liked a lot, there also was a reference to the very slow -- in this case ultra slow big communication frequencies."}, {"response": 175, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:17)", "body": "HC -- I read w/ great laughter and pleasure your posting to austen-l regarding the potential horror of a newsgroup. Definitely ditto -- what an imagination!"}, {"response": 176, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (02:58)", "body": "Spring! Almost here! Wysteria about to bloom..."}, {"response": 177, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (03:58)", "body": "I love wisteria, Joan!"}, {"response": 178, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (06:57)", "body": "I love your new camera, Joan"}, {"response": 179, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (07:52)", "body": "What did HC say that was so funny?"}, {"response": 180, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (09:07)", "body": "You got a new digital camera, Joan? Cool."}, {"response": 181, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (09:11)", "body": "Kate asked: What did HC say that was so funny? ============================================================================ Subject: AUSTEN-L Digest - 31 Mar 1997 to 1 Apr 1997 To: Recipients of AUSTEN-L digests There are 244 messages totalling 12,238 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hi everybody! I want to be your friend forever! 2. Re: friend forever!? 3. Re: friend forever? Yes, indeed 4. Jane Austen in the greater scheme of things 5. HELP ME WITH MY PAPER!!!!!!!!!! 6. The monstrous regiment of women [...] 244. There are too many messages in this group, it's impossible to keep up! ----------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1997 00:20:56 -0500 From: Lucky11 Subject: Hi everybody! I want to be your friend forever! I was just wunnering if this chick, Jane Austin, ever rote any other books other then Jane Eyre. Lucky11@prodigy.com http://www.amway_in_kansas.com/~lucky/sign-up-now!.html \"You never know what multilevel can mean for your future... unless you give it a chance!\" ------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1997 00:30:56 -0500 From: CharterMember Subject: Re: friend forever!? > I was just wunnering if this chick, Jane Austin, ever rote any > other books other then Jane Eyre. This is precisely the sort of thing we were cautioned about. Now what shall we do? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1997 00:40:56 -0500 From: BanAynRand Subject: Re: friend forever? Yes, indeed > > I was just wunnering if this chick, Jane Austin, ever rote any > > other books other then Jane Eyre. > This is precisely the sort of thing we were cautioned about. Now > what shall we do? Have you not an altruistic bone in your body? Lucky11 should be welcomed, nay embraced. I ask you, who among us should not be willing to simply devote an extra 45 minutes in our day to helping new fans of JA. Shame on you, Charter. -------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1997 00:56:24 -0500 From: Nutcase Subject: Jane Austen in the greater scheme of things I would like to start a discussion on Jane Austen's place in the larger patterns of history. I mean, we know that Jane Austen's lifetime was before there existed such things as the World Zionist Conspiracy, the Trilateral Commission, the collaboration between the Rockefellers and the KGB, or the fluoridation of our water supplies. But still, the Freemasons, the Bavarian Illuminati, and many other groups working behind the scenes existed back then, as did the British monarchy. In my own personal opinion, it is clear that for the last 500 years the British monarchy has been concertedly acting on a consistent plan to demonetize gold, and introduce worthless paper money, and thus bring about the collapse of the world economy, which is why I have taken up Survivalism. If any one wants to discuss the relationship of these topics to Jane Austen, or discuss which semiautomatic assault rifles are of the highest quality and can be converted most easily to fully automatic operation, then feel free to e-mail me, or to post a follow-up to the group. Thanks. -------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1997 01:15:43 -0500 From: CluelessFrosh Subject: HELP ME WITH MY PAPER!!!!!!!!!! I'M A FRESHMAN HERE AT WHOSSAMATTA U., AND OUR ENGLISH PERFESSER ASSIGNED US TO WRITE A SEVEN PAGE PAPER ON WHATEVER WE PERSONALLY FIND MOST STRIKING OR INTERESTING ABOUT PRIDE & PREJUDICE AND WHETHER WE THINK ITS A GOOD BOOK OR A BAD BOOK, AND WHY. COULD ANYONE ON THIS GROUP WRITE MY ENGLISH PAPER FOR ME? I USE MICROSOFT WORD VERSION 6.1 AND IT WOULD BE NICE IF YOU USED HELVETICA 14 POINT FONT DOUBLE SPACED. OH AND REMEMBER TO SPELLCHEK IT! THANKS IN ADVANCE!! -------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1997 01:20:54 -0500 From: BitterGuy Subject: The monstrous regiment of women Hey man, I know that this Jane Austin, who ever she was, couldn't of been no good, like, cause she's a WUMAN!! 'Nuff said. I know all about it cause of my divorce from my third wife!!1! In fact, I'm gonna be posting the story of my third divorce to this here Usenet thingie in 13 parts, and I'm sure you're all gonna be, like, enlitened by it! Be seein' ya soon! ------------------------------ [...] End of AUSTEN-L Digest - 31 Mar 1997 to 1 Apr 1997 **************************************************"}, {"response": 182, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (11:46)", "body": "I want to encourage all who have not done so to make an effort to see the Hale-Bopp Comet. It's clearly visible to the unaided eye low in the NNE sky from about 4:00am to sunrise. I know, I know, but it's well worth the effort! The coma is as bright as any star out there and the tail is pointing straight up to the dome of the sky. A beautiful sight-- even more so with binoculars!"}, {"response": 183, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (12:14)", "body": "Thanks for the tip! Now, is it just me, or do other people feel a sudden urge to sing \"Rock Around the Clock\" by Bill Haley and the Comets whenever someone says \"Hale-Bopp Comet\" in a sentence? gosh, I hope it isn't just me ...... ;)"}, {"response": 184, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (12:23)", "body": "LOL Tracey! I admit that I hear \"Be bop a loo bop, she's my baby...\""}, {"response": 185, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (12:33)", "body": "Or even \"a whop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom!\" courtesy of Little Richard......... Oh, stop me before I be-bop again!"}, {"response": 186, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:21)", "body": "]\"K-Tel Bag 'O Bulbs\". :-) Lots and LOL, amazing how it strikes a cord to the new gardiner in me :) Rebecca, happy spring is on the way, your wheather usualy reaches us later on, but for now it's a white covered ground and the sky a palest shade of grey which surrounds us. On another note, let me share a view of my love and be certain I will NOT be posting any other baby pictures like a clueless mom. Tough, taken a while back, just wanted to look at those fine eyes:"}, {"response": 187, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:22)", "body": ""}, {"response": 188, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:44)", "body": "Johanne, what a sweet baby! What is s/he named?"}, {"response": 189, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:08)", "body": "Great face."}, {"response": 190, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:24)", "body": "Tracey, what about \"Who put the bop in the bop shoo bop shoo bop?\" Somebody stop us! ;-)"}, {"response": 191, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:28)", "body": "Oh Johanne! (insert baby-talk noises here)"}, {"response": 192, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:55)", "body": "Johanne!! Those eyes sure have possibilities for the future... And Joan, too: Now we know fore sure, that you are one of those very accomplished ladies that cover screens and cultivates her garden!!"}, {"response": 193, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:16)", "body": "Joanne. I said it before and I'll say it again. She's a cutie!"}, {"response": 194, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:16)", "body": "Cheryl - I suppose it can be said that we have \"bopped till we dropped,\" since I am ROTFLOL at this point! :-) Johanne - What a cutie! Looove the hat! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 178, "subject": "Where to buy stuff we crave", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "Oh yes, for Christmas Santa(me) got The E.M Forster Trilogy Music from A Room With A View, MAURICE, and Howards End. I adore it. a must have for Classical music fans. Well must ring off talk soon. 2 new of 2 responses total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 125 of 177 [austen]: Went into the chat room too late Response 1 of 2: Amy (Amy) * Fri, Jan 3, 1997 (16:02) * 6 lines The E.M Forster Trilogy Music from A Room With A View, MAURICE, and Howards End. __ Tell more, Roar. Label, which section of the record store you found it in. Good weekend to you, too. When is Santa (you) going to get a computer at home? You realize it is really child abuse not to get one for your daughter... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 125 of 177 [austen]: Went into the chat room too late Response 2 of 2: Laura McCarthy (LauraM) * Mon, Jan 6, 1997 (09:46) * 3 lines Well I'm trying to get one from work. Hopefully soon. Mom has a computer at home so its not really child abuse. Okay the cd is from Angel records. I bought it at Borders Bookstore, but I have seen it at HMV. $32.99 (US). I found it under sountracks, I was originally looking for ARWAV soundtrack, but found this instead."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (00:16)", "body": "| Main Menu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 139 of 178: Duchess of Duke Street on video Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (06:41) | Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) For those who were looking for it earlier, The Duchess of Duke Street is now on video. It is available from Signals (PBS) catalog. 13 hours on 7 cassettes. Item #52804....$149.99 Phone orders 1 800 6699 9696 Fax orders 1 612 645 7092 International orders (including Canada) 1 800 669 5225 or 01 612 659 4312 for areas outside of toll free range. 1 response total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 139 of 178 [austen]: Duchess of Duke Street on video Response 1 of 1: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (06:46) * 1 lines 1 800 669 9696 is the correct phone number. Sorry."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (00:20)", "body": "| Main Menu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 139 of 178: Duchess of Duke Street on video Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (06:41) | Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) For those who were looking for it earlier, The Duchess of Duke Street is now on video. It is available from Signals (PBS) catalog. 13 hours on 7 cassettes. Item #52804....$149.99 Phone orders 1 800 6699 9696 Fax orders 1 612 645 7092 International orders (including Canada) 1 800 669 5225 or 01 612 659 4312 for areas outside of toll free range. 1 response total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 139 of 178 [austen]: Duchess of Duke Street on video Response 1 of 1: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (06:46) * 1 lines 1 800 669 9696 is the correct phone number. Sorry."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (00:20)", "body": "Topic 140 of 178: BBC Emma already available on video Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (13:53) | Dina (Dina) Invalid command: only I get a catalogue called Critics Choice (800-367-7765) and they are offering the 1996 BBC version of Emma (with Kate Beckinsale and Dominc Rowan) for $14.77. We haven't even seen it here in America, but there it is. The # is AAANEO16081. 4 new of 4 responses total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 140 of 178 [austen]: BBC Emma already available on video Response 1 of 4: Dina (Dina) * Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (13:58) * 1 lines By the way, I just noticed it said it would be available on 2/17/97. Hmmmm. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 140 of 178 [austen]: BBC Emma already available on video Response 2 of 4: Bernie Parkin (Bernie) * Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (11:15) * 1 lines Just to add to the confusion. The BBC didn't adapt \"Emma\" last year. I think you must be referring to Meridian/A&E co\ufffdproduction, which was aired over here in November. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 140 of 178 [austen]: BBC Emma already available on video Response 3 of 4: Dina (Dina) * Mon, Jan 20, 1997 (16:02) * 3 lines Yes, you are right. And to add more confusion, I see that Anne posted this same thing (even forgetting to put the delayed delivery date on her original posting) under the Emma line. Oops. Dina ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 140 of 178 [austen]: BBC Emma already available on video Response 4 of 4: Donna (Donna) * Sun, Feb 2, 1997 (09:26) * 5 lines VIDEO RELEASE DATES: A&E EMMA MARCH 7,1997 JN & GP APRIL 15,1997"}, {"response": 5, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (14:46)", "body": "I found Jane Eyre with Timothy Dalton at Fusion Video 29.98 telephone # is 1-800-959-0061. Of course because I fell in love with this version, I have ordered it. Fusion Video 17311 Fusion Way Country Club, IL 60478 If you call them they can send you a catalog austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 179, "subject": "Did you see the article about.....", "response_count": 25, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (08:03)", "body": "Moved from topic 144 _____ Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (21:42) | Claudia Bond (Pandora620) Invalid command: only There is a breath-taking picture of Jennifer Ehle in the article about the Oscar Wilde movie in February issue of Vanity Fair. She looks like Mrs. Darcy has become comfortable with wealth and fashion. Given her history with leading men I do believe she will find Stephen Fry very resistible. Mr. Firth you should have tried harder to secure this beauty! 13 new of 13 responses total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 1 of 13: Linda Yelton (DaRcYfAn) * Fri, Jan 17, 1997 (16:46) * 2 lines Thanks for the alert... Linda In Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 2 of 13: Linda Yelton (DaRcYfAn) * Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (20:29) * 1 lines Claudia, I went out and got my own copy...it is a very nice picture...sounds like a sad part to play however! Again, thanks for the alert! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 3 of 13: Claudia Bond (Pandora620) * Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (01:02) * 2 lines Linda, in the alledged Firth-Ehle affair, who was the dumpor and who was the dumpee? Don't you think the picture looks like Mrs. Darcy would later in the marriage? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 4 of 13: Inko (Inko) * Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (15:28) * 1 lines This may not be the right thread for this, but in the February \"Tatler\" (a U.K. magazine that I saw at Crown books) there's an article/interview with Emilia Fox (Georgiana) and her role in Rebecca. Also some very glamorous photos of her in designer clothes. She's got her degree in English from Oxford and is now acting full time. Seems like a very nice, intelligent, young lady. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 5 of 13: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (00:45) * 1 lines Maybbe we need a more general thread for \"media updates\" or some such? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 6 of 13: Johanne (JohanneD) * Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (00:53) * 1 lines Renaming and pruning will be included in the spring cleaning ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 7 of 13: Linda Yelton (DaRcYfAn) * Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (17:47) * 1 lines Claudia....alledged affair????? Where have I been? Oh, COOL! Anyway, it could be Mrs. Darcy in later years...I was glad to see her back again with dark hair...Jennifer as a blond was hard to imagine (talk about getting the actress mixed up with the real life individual!) I would love to go see this movie with her in it...just hope it isn't too depressing! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 8 of 13: Arnessa (Arnessa) * Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (21:27) * 1 lines I read that SHE dumped him. Somewhere on Friends of Firth site, there's an articles section. In one of them, it quotes \"someone close to Ehle\" as saying she realized that he could never love her the way she wanted to be loved. (??!! I could make some rather crude comment here, but I'll refrain.) It would appear he's a rather emotionally distant person. Who knows? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 9 of 13: Susan Christie (Susan) * Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (21:48) * 1 lines And who cares! It's not really his mind that I'm most interested in! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 10 of 13: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (00:55) * 6 lines Susan: It's not really his mind that I'm most interested in! Susan, you are cutting quite a lacivious swath here at Spring today, and all I can say is You Go Girl! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 11 of 13: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (12:00) * 1 lines Cheryl, where there is passionate intrigue, I expect you to be there! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 144 of 178 [austen]: Jennifer Ehle in February Vanity Fair Response 12 of 13: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (16:31) * 1 lines ooh baby, ooh baby! ;-) ----------------------"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (08:08)", "body": "Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 346 of 362: Inko (Inko) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (19:27) * 7 lines Ann, So glad they found your car. Hope it'll be driveable soon!! There is a terrific review of P&P2 in today's NY Times by Christoper Lehmann-Haupt, a book reviewer. He compares P&P2 to the book and likes it very well indeed, better than any other Austen adaptation. Link is: http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/arts/tv-austen-review.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 347 of 362: Ann (Ann) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (19:37) * 3 lines That is an increadible review!! (By the way, you probably have to register at the NYTimes site before you can view the stories there. I would heartily recommend that you do. The NYTimes site is one of the best newspapers on the web and includes most, if not all, of the printed paper (including the crossword puzzle!!)) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 177 of 179 [austen]: Ramble Response 3 of 3: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (23:12) * 276 lines Last few days, part 2 ____ Topic 9 of 12 [austenarchive]: Ramble Response 348 of 362: Ann (Ann) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (20:06) * 27 lines I have sent the NYTimes a E-letter in response to this article. I thought I would share it with all of you: Dear Sir or Madam, Your reporter, Christopher Lehmann-Haupt, is not the first to fall in love with the BBC/A&E production of Pride and Prejudice. This production in particular, and Jane Austen in general, has a large and loyal following on the internet. There are several sites which have been founded specifically for the purpose of discussing this production, and which have subsequently been broadened to include all of the works of Jane Austen. Other sites have been established solely to provide information and access to Au ten's works on the internet. Some of the URL's are as follows: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janeinfo.html http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/all/new (requires registration) http://www.bluemarble.net/~amyloo/wwwboard/ppbb.html It is suprising to me that she, of all authors, has such a strong following in cyberspace. I am continually amazed by the wide variety of Jane Austen information available on the internet, as well as the variety of people interested in her work. The virtual community which has been created around an interest in Jane Austen includes men and women, it includes people from the age of nine to well over sixty, and spans several continents and languages. It represents the best of what the internet can be by bringing together so many people in so many different walks of life, races, and cultures. We have come together and have indeed formed a community. We cry together when one of us suffers from a loss of a loved one, and we celebrate when one of us pa ses a milestone in life. We support eachother, even though few of us have ever met or even know what the others look like. We are grateful to Miss Austen for giving us the reason come together, and are grateful to the BBC/A&E production for introducing so many of us to her work. I am glad that your paper has recognised this wonderful production, which has brought so many people to enjoy Pride and Prejudice and Jane Austen, and which has brought so many of us together in cyberspace. Thank you, Ann Elizabeth Haker haker001@tc.umn.edu"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (08:24)", "body": "Ann, this is such a lovely letter. Hope NY Times prints it."}, {"response": 4, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (11:10)", "body": "Wonderful letter Ann and happy you get your car back!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:48)", "body": "Killer letter, Ann! Maybe Amy will have a film crew following her around next week!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (13:59)", "body": "Moved from its own topic: __ Topic 180 of 181: Review of Emma in TV Guide Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (08:23) | Kim (kimmer) The following is a review by Susan Stewart: It pains me to say it, but the author of the line \"It was a delightful visit-perfect in being much too short\" has overstayed her welcome. The latest Austen adaptation translates delicate wit into sitcom-style banter, turns Emma's romantic machinations into silly daydreams and ends with a harvest festival straight out of Thomas hardy-oops, wrong classy British author. Enough! My score:3 out of 10. Also in the same issue in the program description it states: Though this 1996 BBC adaptation is visually arresting and faithfyl to the novel, it lacks the charm of last year's theatrical release starring Gwyneth Paltrow. In this version, Kate Beckinsale displays little of Emma's willful likability; she plays her as a sometimes mean-spirited matchmaker determined to raise a friend's social station by finding a husband. 6 new of 6 responses total. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 180 of 181 [austen]: Review of Emma in TV Guide Response 1 of 6: Linda In Ga. (Darcyfan) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (10:19) * 1 lines Oh No! I for one..will still watch it...Go Sue Bristwistle and Andrew Davies!...after all, they gave us the best production I have ever seen...I will watch in anticipation of another well done Austen adaptation....Next week, we can give our own opinions....Kim, we will then know how we feel about Susan Stewart as a critic...right? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 180 of 181 [austen]: Review of Emma in TV Guide Response 2 of 6: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (11:10) * 1 lines People Magazine gave it a glowing review. Claimed it was better than the GP & JN version. Grade: A. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 180 of 181 [austen]: Review of Emma in TV Guide Response 3 of 6: Johanne (JohanneD) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (11:16) * 1 lines After Martha here's Susan, well...who's in line for stone throwing... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 180 of 181 [austen]: Review of Emma in TV Guide Response 4 of 6: Johanne (JohanneD) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (11:17) * 3 lines After Martha here's Susan, well...who's in line for stone throwing... Now nobody touches Patrick, Please ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 180 of 181 [austen]: Review of Emma in TV Guide Response 5 of 6: Dina (Dina) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (12:33) * 1 lines T.V. Guide gave it a 3 out of 10. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 180 of 181 [austen]: Review of Emma in TV Guide Response 6 of 6: Carl W. Goss (lasalle) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (12:49) * 9 lines 3rd Try! I'm now a little worried about this production of Emma. Jane Austen wrote fiction, but fiction that seems very real . Dream/fantasy sequences? Hope ITV/A&E arn't going Hollywood. Emma causes a lot of real pain and distress to those around her. She gets a very real dressing down by Mr knightly for her treatment of Miss Bates. No need for dream/fanstasy sequences. Bears close watching, seems to me. This Sunday at 9PM PST tells the tale."}, {"response": 7, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (15:09)", "body": "I was amused to find a picture from the upcoming A&E Emma in the PBS Austen videos section -- amused because that particular video is NOT one of the videos being sold!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (06:44)", "body": "People magazine review of EMMA by Tom Gliatto Had enough of Jane Austen? Ready to mo on to Jacqueline Susann? Not so fast. This adatpation is terrific and far superior to the the recent Gwynth Paltrow film. The key is Kate Beckinsdale. She's just about perfect as Austen's \"handsome, clever and rich\" young heroine, who insists on playin matchmaker to the citizens of Higubury, only to find repeatedly that she understands nothing of the longings of the human heart. Paltro played the part with a swanlike haoughtiness. Beckinsdale is bibrantly girli h and romantic. And she looks smashing in Empire-waist dresses. Emma, as adapted by Andrew Davies, captures no just Austen's ligth charm but the pinpricks of her social criticism. Samantha Morton, as the illegitimate Harriet Smith, and Olivia Williams, as Jane Fairfax--who faces a dreary future as a governess--are affectingly vunerable. While Emma, secure in her wealth, prattles on about romance, these penniless women know that the town's eligilble bachelors will judge them accortding to the size of their purse. And likely reject them. Grade:A"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (11:54)", "body": "Please keep in mind that PEOPLE panned P&P2. They didn't like Jennifer Ehle. So don't trust too much in their reviews!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Donna", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (13:14)", "body": "Could it be that different people did the reviews,Amy? What didn't this person like about Jennifer Ehle?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (17:53)", "body": "Whew! At least he didn't complement this version's Mr. Knightly! I can take it if this is a better adaptation, but never let it be said that anyone but Jeremy Northam could be the definitive Mr. Knightly!! (I think I need to head to the drool conference) :)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (03:28)", "body": "On the other hand, Susan Stewart of TV Guide (who loved P&P) says: It pains me to say it but the author of the line \"It was a delightful visit - perfect in being much too short\" has overstayed her welcome. The latest Austen adaptation translates delicate wit into sitcom-style banter, turns Emma's romantic machinations into silly daydreams and ends with a harvest festival straight out of Thomas Hardy - oops, wrong classy British author. Enough! My score: 3"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (04:10)", "body": "No kidding, Kaff. I will survive the whole of this version muttering to myself: \"Who is this impostor?! What have they done with my Mr. Knightley?!!!\""}, {"response": 14, "author": "Donna", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "And another Review from \"The Best Video Guide\" A&E EMMA. I would say that this man has a deeper understanding of \"Jane Austen\". http://www.tbvg.com/movies/emmaja.htm If this doesn't work try http://www.tbvg.com/ scroll to Upcoming Videos, click on JA Emma A&E"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (15:55)", "body": "Why? Because this man sits and moralizes for the interviewers, while Jeremy merely laughs? Actually, I have heard what Mr. Northam has said about his character and the novel itself, and I am not unimpressed!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Arnessa", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (01:21)", "body": "Minor note: Anyone get the J. Peterman catalogue? The latest advertises an empire waist dress under the title \"Jane Austen Is Always in Style.\" Would not Jane be surprised (and perhaps a tad dismayed) to get a nod from such a pretentious fop! I had to chuckle when I read that."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (01:24)", "body": "Speaking of catalogs, I miss Levinsons for Serious Readers. They lost me when I moved. Anybody else find every single thing in there something you want?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (12:41)", "body": "]Speaking of catalogs, I miss Levinsons for Serious Readers. They lost me when I moved. Anybody else find every single thing in there something you want? Always. But I'm not sure it was your move, Amy. I stopped getting it, too and I've been here since '84."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (12:48)", "body": "I sometimes get it with my Sunday New York Times, but it has been a little while now since it came."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (17:30)", "body": "I hope Levensons is not out of business. What a comment on society."}, {"response": 21, "author": "winter", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (01:46)", "body": "sorry to go completely off topic, but thought you might want to ee a picture of Jennifer Ehle in the homepage (unofficial) of the royal shakespeare co.. her hair is its natural color, and she looks a bit meryl streepish here by the eay: http://www.hiway.co.uk/~ei/cast.html#newfaces"}, {"response": 22, "author": "winter", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (01:47)", "body": "my goodness! i'm really sorry for the typos-- it's the darn carpal tunnel acting up again. i don't type as accurately as i used to."}, {"response": 23, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (08:26)", "body": "RE a picture of Jennifer Ehle in the homepage (unofficial) of the royal shakespeare co It's interesting in the notes to this that it says \"recenlty on TV in The Camomile Lawn\" (which was before P&P2) and no mention of P&P2. Maybe she's trying to escape..."}, {"response": 24, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (08:44)", "body": "I don't think the RSC has updated its homepage in almost two years."}, {"response": 25, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (03:18)", "body": "Right - the RSC has updated its \"schedule\" pages, but not it's \"info\" pages such as profiles of the actors and highlights of \"recent\" productions. That picture of JE is the one that all the casting people have - it also appears in \"The Making Of\" book on page 16. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 18, "subject": "Best of chat", "response_count": 12, "posts": [{"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (01:02)", "body": "Joan has been teasing. Last night (Fri) she posed as someone else for two hours or longer. Earlier in the week she teased the whole gang of us for over a day about an online romance involving one of our number."}, {"response": 18, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (01:33)", "body": "Since my reputation for both silliness and seriousness is at stake here, I would like to make one tiny clarification. My most recent escapade was indeed intentional silliness (TGIF!), however I had no intent to tease in the first episode. An innocent comment (which in my mind was related to the discussion at hand) regarding something that was told to me in private e-mail became the object of the most intense curiosity as to who were the parties invovled. Not wishing to make public that which was told to me in private without the permission of the person who told me, I declared myself unwilling to name names without first asking permission. In this matter I had no intention to tease. I cannot blame myself for having done thus much. There is but one part of my conduct in this matter on which I do not reflect with seriousness, and that is that once Matthew saved my hide by agreeing to have his story told, I do admit to doing so in a less than perfectly serious manner. .utexas.edu/~churchyh/smiley-for-amy.gif\" ALT=\":-)\"> Joan, too"}, {"response": 18, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (01:34)", "body": "Since my reputation for both silliness and seriousness is at stake here, I would like to make one tiny clarification. My most recent escapade was indeed intentional silliness (TGIF!), however I had no intent to tease in the first episode. An innocent comment (which in my mind was related to the discussion at hand) regarding something that was told to me in private e-mail became the object of the most intense curiosity as to who were the parties invovled. Not wishing to make public that which was told to me in private without the permission of the person who told me, I declared myself unwilling to name names without first asking permission. In this matter I had no intention to tease. I cannot blame myself for having done thus much. There is but one part of my conduct in this matter on which I do not reflect with seriousness, and that is that once Matthew saved my hide by agreeing to have his story told, I do admit to doing so in a less than perfectly serious manner. .utexas.edu/~churchyh/smiley-for-amy.gif\" ALT=\":-)\"> Joan, too"}, {"response": 18, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (01:50)", "body": "Now I promise that I only clicked the button once, but this got posted twice!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (08:20)", "body": "New Aussie slang alert: Larrikan, meaning mischievious. Usage: It has become common intellence to those under the auspices of the shades of Pemberley that, whilst ensconced in the Drawing Room of that noble home, Ian has proved himself to be very larrikan indeed. At times his closest friends have been concerned lest his unguarded behaviour carry him into areas which may be termed daggy, but his good breeding, manners and fear of censure have saved him from such an infamous fate."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (08:47)", "body": "Oh, I can see this topic will get to be a gossip column"}, {"response": 18, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (10:45)", "body": "I like the chat site y'all use. I wonder if we can get that software installed on one of our Spring servers?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (16:16)", "body": "\"Oh, I can see this topic will get to be a gossip column \" Oh, and had you intended it otherwise? >"}, {"response": 18, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (16:20)", "body": "(Now why didn't HC's question mark display here???)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (17:36)", "body": "\"Oh, I can see this topic will get to be a gossip column \" Oh, and had you intended it otherwise? ____________ You're on to me, Joan."}, {"response": 18, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (18:32)", "body": "The smiley didn't work because of an out of date filename, as well as an involuntary line-break being inserted into the middle of the URL. Use these:"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (18:46)", "body": "Amy, that smiley is obscene...I prefer the butterfly...; ) - K austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 184, "subject": "Conference business", "response_count": 41, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (22:33)", "body": "Last few messages: __ Topic 1 of 183 [austen]: conference business Response 118 of 124: Amy (Amy) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (16:53) * 2 lines It's the commentary -- especially the praise, since every writer needs that! -- which I don't want to lose entirely. Any ideas on that, anybody? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 1 of 183 [austen]: conference business Response 119 of 124: Cecily (panache) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (19:24) * 8 lines Amy and Myretta- I like this idea. You could put the Writers' Guild in your header links. And we could start a fresh \"Scenes\" topic for posting of further stories and commentary. Option 1: Scenes without commentary reviews put into Ann's page; original topic thread (scenes with commentary/reviewa) in AustenArchives; new additipons to topic #43 only if PG13; other New Scenes conference outside for slightly \"hotter\" scenes (tasteful R?). Option 2: Same as above, except all new scenes out in another New Scenes conference outside P&P2 (with a copyright and request for PG13-tasteful R content). Actually, I hate to use R as a term at all, in that it allows any writers who post to include scenes of violence, etc., if they be nonAustenites in content and style... Option 3: Tell writers to direct us to their own webpages of scenes! Option 4: Go watch P&P2 again and forget this prequel/sequel jazz. (I feel like a mother turtle who laid a million eggs in the sand of #43 and now they're all starting to hatch...) ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 1 of 183 [austen]: conference business Response 120 of 124: Ann (Ann) * Thu, Feb 6, 1997 (21:59) * 1 lines I just want to add, that if something gets racier than my arbitrary taste would feel comfortable with, I will not post it to the guild. So far, nothing has crossed that line, so I can not say where that line is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 1 of 183 [austen]: conference business Response 121 of 124: Myretta (mrobens) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (10:17) * 3 lines Cecily, You have, indeed,hatched quite a few eggs here. I'm inclined to think that starting a separate conference for \"hotter\" scenes might encourage \"hotter\" scenes. I think we do quite well, here, keeping things acceptable to the General Public. Your happy band of authors seems to have reached an agreeable temperature and is keeping it regulated. If the need arises, we could always direct the writers to drool and start a topic there. I also think that Amy has enough conferences on her h nds at the moment. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 1 of 183 [austen]: conference business Response 122 of 124: Cecily (panache) * Fri, Feb 7, 1997 (18:37) * 1 lines As Darcy would say, You are perfectly right. It is entirely up to Amy, this being Amyland. Whatever she decides is law to me. I was merely and halfjestingly responding to her query above for others' input. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 1 of 183 [austen]: conference business Response 123 of 124: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (14:23) * 1 lines Oh oh."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (01:00)", "body": "Henry's made a great interface for the old P&P2BB archives at: http://access.spring.com/~amy/ It is so much fun to page through, and he's written indexes by subject and date, so it is really easy to use. Such a nice thing you have given us, Henry. Thank you so much."}, {"response": 3, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (07:54)", "body": "Very nice, Henry."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (13:52)", "body": "I'm all amazement! Those Archives with indexes and so many different entries... Not that I did not consider it to be in your power Henry, but the amount of kind work put in...It looks so elegant ! Somewhat in style with your Austen site. Thank you. Hours of remembrance ahead."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (21:31)", "body": "They look great, Henry. Thank you. Was I the only one to check out the 'D's first?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (22:32)", "body": "] Was I the only one to check out the 'D's first? it might be quicker to ask who didn't check out the D's first ;-)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (01:40)", "body": "First place I went Hil! :-)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (06:47)", "body": "]First place I went Hil! :-) Me, too!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (12:34)", "body": "Me three!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (12:41)", "body": "The D section is getting worn spots in it already."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (15:39)", "body": "First and only place I've been so far!!;-)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (16:24)", "body": "and it is great fun; thanks HC!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (05:25)", "body": "But there is something missing in the daggy thread...there is not the additional discussion about the left and the right...I can only presume that the subject line got changed and so it's somewhere else? If someone finds it, give a hollar! ;-)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (13:14)", "body": "HC, thanks heaps! It takes me back to my youger days, when I was a mere lurker...ah, the memories."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (13:58)", "body": "Cheryl, I couldn't find that either, in the time I had, but I guess its there!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (01:32)", "body": "\"but I guess its there!' I think not - I think that was one of the things that got lost in the first crash at Bluemarble. There was some attempt to reconstruct, but it's never the same in paraphrase..."}, {"response": 17, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (07:08)", "body": "Joan, too -- that sounds correct. There are references to the \"left and right\" discussion (Christmas gifts ?) but I suspect that all the original material is gone to ether heaven. ; )"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (17:13)", "body": "Kathleen: but I suspect that all the original material is gone to ether heaven. ; ) *pout* :-("}, {"response": 19, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (17:26)", "body": "all the original material is gone to ether heaven. AND"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (17:28)", "body": "AND"}, {"response": 21, "author": "candace", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:48)", "body": "Cheryl -- please do not despair, it was all such a very magic moment in time...a time that I will never forget. My first ROTFLOL experience on the internet. You started it for me then, and I must say have carried it forward ever since. The conversation between us all regarding this, I carry as a verbal bouquet kept safely in my mind which I can pull out and look at with my memories. Of course, when I am feeling very analytical the memory is on the right side of my brain and when I am feeling very crea ive, the memory is on the left. ;-)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:50)", "body": "Amy....yesterday you came into the Pemberley in much frustration....you left before you could read the messages that were posted after we realized the leverl of your stress.....I wanted you to know (and I know many will agree) that even though things aren't working perfectly....I for one want to say thank you for what you have accomplished here in the Spring. I cannot tell you the many hours of enjoyment I have had when finding refuge here from whatever the day may bring. To have found friends here who eel as I do about the very special world of P&P and other such places has been a treasure.....whenever you get down about what hasn't happened...please remember what has....and it has been MUCH! I for one am grateful!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:39)", "body": "Thanks, Linda. I do feel so much better now that Myretta and Henry and all the others who help out have come to my rescue. Back in the old Board days, I'd have just gone to bed for a week."}, {"response": 24, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:46)", "body": "I 2nd eveything Linda said, Amy. We really appreciate everything you've been doing. God's truth, we do."}, {"response": 25, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:48)", "body": "].I for one want to say thank you for what you have accomplished here in the Spring. Make that two of us. I echo everything Linda says."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Mari", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:50)", "body": "Thank you doesn't even say enough, but those are all the words we have...."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:03)", "body": "Amy, it's easy to take all of this for granted, but we realize how much of it is due to you and we appreciate it greatly. You must feel like this sometimes:"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:05)", "body": "I love that, Susan."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:06)", "body": "I love all you guys."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (16:11)", "body": "Amy, I second, third, etc. all of the above. I am eternally grateful for this site and all you, with Myretta's and HC's help, are doing for us. Wish I were more computer savvy that I might help too, but I'm still very much a novice! BTW-when I posted yesterday that it was slow it was not a complaint - meant it for information purposes because I didn't realize it was a problem for everyone."}, {"response": 31, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:13)", "body": "I have no idea how much work you do, but I do realize that it is HUGE! Thank you, thank you, thank you for making this so easy! (even when it's hard) Whatever happened yesterday has definitely been fixed. We are cruising, now, baby!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:31)", "body": "Hip, hip, HOORAY for the Spring team!! What would we do without all the dedication and hard work you do. Muchas gracias, merci, danke, and thank you ever so much."}, {"response": 33, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:59)", "body": "Indeed, You have given us a treasure!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (09:57)", "body": "Susan and Joan....I wish I could do these kinds of added wonders...I do so delight in them....I was literally ROTLOL...Capitol! Capitol! Somehow, I knew I would not be alone in my sentiments....thank you all for joining me...I think the crew needed a pat on the back...we should probably do it more often!"}, {"response": 35, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (14:39)", "body": "Linda: I think the crew needed a pat on the back...we should probably do it more often! Linda -- I totally agree with you; after all, it's not as though we can vote them a 10% raise periodically. ;-)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:11)", "body": "Kathleen: after all, it's not as though we can vote them a 10% raise periodically. ;-) Why not be generous? I say what the hell, pay 'em double what they're getting now! They're worth it! ;-)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:17)", "body": "Why not be generous? I say what the hell, pay 'em double what they're getting now! They're worth it! ;-) I suppose you're expecting your regular percentage for this effort."}, {"response": 38, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:21)", "body": "I second to motion for a 100% raise for the staff. You have earned it. Seriously, thanks to Amy for beginning this and sticking with it. We all need to un-learn the office routine of blaming the computer for our frustrations when this particular computer is staffed by our benefactors and friends."}, {"response": 39, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (23:09)", "body": "Linda in GA: .I wish I could do these kinds of added wonders. You, too, can amaze your friends - you have only to pay a visit to Ann's most excellent tutorial (which is linked at the top of the main Austen page) to de-mystify the mysterious. She explains it all in English."}, {"response": 40, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (09:24)", "body": "I archived the \"Nasty Days\" topic. That way it is not really censored but kind of buried. Probably it was my fault to introduce the topic; it's a natural dissonance generator. Sorry."}, {"response": 41, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "It was good to get a glimpse to this other world of JA. Got to subscribe as well ;) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 186, "subject": "About our addiction", "response_count": 52, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (01:14)", "body": "Last few messages: __ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 109 of 126: Linda In Ga. (Darcyfan) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (09:20) * 1 lines How abou this one....when you have paid $100 for the video and you still watch A&E to see the rebroadcasted series...commercials in all...because you can't bear the thought of it playing somewhere without you watching.....addicted and no turning back!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 110 of 126: Wendy (summit) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (22:41) * 1 lines Sad but true, Linda...and I must say the commercials realy chopped up the flow of the purist version, too, and nearly rendered it unpalatable to me (despite the charms of Darcy)... :-/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 111 of 126: Anne (Yeago) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (12:22) * 1 lines Y'all are cracking me up. not wanting to let others know, I have referd to CF as \"that guy who played Darcy\". I thought I had flipped out and was all alone!! Guess not.:-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 112 of 126: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (12:42) * 4 lines Anne: I thought I had flipped out and was all alone!! Guess not.:-) No, no, not at all...you are in quite good company here! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 113 of 126: Myretta (mrobens) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (14:16) * 5 lines Cheryl: No, no, not at all...you are in quite good company here! ;-) This is not good company. It is the best. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 114 of 126: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (15:35) * 2 lines ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 115 of 126: Inko (Inko) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (16:46) * 3 lines You are addicted when you write a story about Young Fitz and your mind thinks of him as a smaller version of Darcy in P&P2, down to the dagginess and all!!!;-) My husband now refers to me as Little Fitz' mother, not realizing that it's the grown up Fitz I'm after!!;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 116 of 126: Sharon (sld) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (19:23) * 4 lines [when you have paid $100 for the video and you still watch A&E to see the rebroadcasted series...commercials in all...] Okay, Linda, you are probably leading the pack! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 117 of 126: Katy Kendall (kendall) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (22:05) * 3 lines ..because you can't bear the thought of it playing somewhere without you watching .. Linda, I did not watch it on A&E this past showing - but I felt I should be! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 118 of 126: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (23:32) * 5 lines Inko: You are addicted when you write a story about Young Fitz and your mind thinks of him as a smaller version of Darcy in P&P2, down to the dagginess and all!!!;-) Ooh, be careful Inko...that's illegal in some states! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 119 of 126: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (23:43) * 5 lines Inko: You are addicted when you write a story about Young Fitz and your mind thinks of him as a smaller version of Darcy in P&P2, down to the dagginess and all!!!;-) Ooh, be careful Inko...that's illegal in some states! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 22 of 185 [austen]: 12 signs that you are addicted to P&P2 Response 120 of 126: Mary C. Fox (MaryC) * Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (23:58) * 1 lines Count me in your club Linda. I actually did more listening than watching (except for my favorite parts) and amazingly heard dialogue I had never picked up on before because I was too busy watching the action in the scene. I was especially amazed to hear secondary dialogue in several of the scenes that I had totally missed before. And the commercials on 'Emma' were actually fun to watch, I am looking forward to Sunday night! -------------------------------------------------------------"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (02:31)", "body": "I was perusing the Old BB Archives, when I came across my first post on Sept. 17,1996! In vain have I struggled. It will not do. My feelings will not be repressed. You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love P&P2. I, too, am hopelessly addicted, and would post numbers very similar to Tommye's were it not for the guilt and shame such numbers would oblige me to feel. My addiction has even lead me to repeated viewings alone, and in secret lest scenes arise unpleasant towards more than myself (\"you're not watching that AGAIN?\") I get my daily fix of Jane Austen by being an avid lurker of Austen-L, but my longing for more Darcy and Elizabeth was not satisfied until I stumbled on this BB a few days ago. Finally, people who know and understand what I am going through! But, like Tommye, I do not desire a cure, but an overdose (is such a thing possible?) Well, in the ensuing months, I believe I have finally overdosed, but like a true addict, my first thought upon regaining consciousness is \"more!\" Thank you all for five fabulous months, and the care and support you lend to me and my addiction! PS. What ever happened to Tommye? :-("}, {"response": 3, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (05:59)", "body": "I miss Tommye too, and felt her absense when I wandered through the archives. Doesn't it seem longer than 5 months? So glad you found us, Cheryl. You brighten up my day every single day."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (17:23)", "body": "Amy: *samooch*"}, {"response": 5, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (19:47)", "body": "Okay, everyone, here's what happened at lunch today: My dearest hubby, who, I believe enjoys hearing about everything as much as I enjoy being here, drew a parallel between what goes on here and the Rocky Horror Pic Show craze of our college days. He actually thinks that we ought to be required to dress in period costumes as we watch the video in obsession! (nobody does that, do they?)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (20:00)", "body": "and, if they do where can I get one?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (20:14)", "body": "(nobody does that, do they?) and, if they do where can I get one? We ALL do that, Cindy. Didn't anyone tell you? Johanne will provide you with the patterns."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (20:56)", "body": "Cheryl....I love that first post! Fresh from being in your addiction all alone...just finding the rest of us....is there such a thing as an overdose????? \"-want to pust the video on pause or slow frames when there a close-up of him so you can sneak up to the set and \"give him a screen test kiss\" (as opposed to the miniature CyberKiss Colin only reachable by the click of your mouse/finger)\"................Don't you just love the way your hair stands straight up from the static electricty when you do that..or is it from the kiss?????"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (19:26)", "body": "Linda, it must be the kiss.Kissing Mel Gibson on the screen does not have the same effect.Honest. ;-}"}, {"response": 10, "author": "candace", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:58)", "body": "parallel between what goes on here and the Rocky Horror Pic Show craze Cindy -- LOL -- I have often thought about doing this. In fact when Kali and I met last December, we discussed just this object. Could you not see it? Speaking right along with the dialogue, yelling out \"Duck Face\" at Miss Bingley, throwing popcorn at the screen and screaming \"Liar! Liar!\" when Wickham comes on, sighing out loud in unison during \"The Look\", etc. I could go on and on! Well, arrange it Cindy, I'll be there in my little muslin dress and bonnett!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "candace", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:59)", "body": "...oh, one more: Everyone in unison chanting \"Left, Right, Left, Right\" ;-)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (00:11)", "body": "prob: I think I'm RL geographically way out of everyone else's reach. I seem to remember somebody's being in Houston, but it sounds more like there's lots in NE and upper MW. I was exceedingly disappointed that the Boston group didn't appear to be appropriately attired"}, {"response": 13, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (00:12)", "body": "well, there was one in the group who did appear to be wearing (or not) his clothes well"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (00:34)", "body": "We also made up a P&P drinking game. Everytime your character says \"indeed\" you have to chug."}, {"response": 15, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (06:57)", "body": "I love it!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (06:58)", "body": "So, I suppose the designated driver gets to be Ann deBourg?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (10:19)", "body": "Caroline...[Kissing Mel Gibson on the screen does not have the same effect.Honest.} I believe you...I believe you...I believe you!!!!! Candace....[Could you not see it? Speaking right along with the dialogue, yelling out \"Duck Face\" at Miss Bingley, throwing popcorn at the screen and screaming \"Liar! Liar!\" when Wickham comes on, sighing out loud in unison during \"The Look\", etc.} You don't do this?????? I knew I had gone too far!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Mari", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:48)", "body": "Lines that must be spoken in unison; Other way, Mr. Collins.. Hearts, Mr. Collins, hearts! I would that he had sprained his ankle in the first dance. Astonishing.. and.. is it true? Abominable reply; how shall we punish him? They are hard upon our heels, make haste, make haste... Shelves in the closet...happy thought, indeed. I can't speak over any of Mr. Darcy's lines, for that would prevent me from hearing that lovely voice, so that I can play it back again accurately in my dreams. BTW, we will, of course, execute the entire MB Maggot, shall we not? I would like to see Amy and HC as the first couple, with Cheryl and Ann right behind..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (16:49)", "body": "]Lines that must be spoken in unison; How about AWWWW I want to go to Brighton!!! or Obstinate, headstrong gel!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "hee hee Okay I can hear the inflections exactly, but not so sure I can reproduce them. In the same vein (should this be a new topic?): Why do American women (all Amer. women, as far as I know) melt instantaneously when we hear a gorgeous Brit. accent? At work we even have a hideous creature (well, extremely unattractive, anyway) from Australia that we deal with who melts the hearts, so long as we only have to listen to the voice. (He's also a fair geek, so once we get to know him, the magic certainly wears off, but let a new woman into our office, and we have to peel her off the floor to hang up the phone)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:52)", "body": "ROTFLOL - ladies - I cannot contribute anything to this madness until I go away and finish laughing. 'So, I suppose the designated driver gets to be Ann deBourg?\" ... \"throwing popcorn at the screen and screaming \"Liar! Liar!\" when Wickham comes on\" ... you are so funny!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (22:46)", "body": "] Why do American women (all Amer. women, as far as I know) melt instantaneously when we hear a gorgeous Brit. accent? ]At work we even have a hideous creature (well, extremely unattractive, anyway) from Australia ... Hate to say it ladies, but it's been a long time since (most) Australians thought of themselves as British. I know you guys have trouble distinguishing our accents (most of the time people assume I'm British, which most of my English friends think is hysterical) But if you think he's got a cute accent its because its AUSTRALIAN... I'd have to say that we (that is most Australian women of my acquantance) don't get very excited about American accents. But when a Scot starts talking.... ;-) (that's purely personal and not meant to apply to all those other Aussie women out there)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Becks", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "How I love Aussie accents.........."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (10:21)", "body": "Mari...I love those! How about these: No lace, no lace, Mrs. Bennet, I beg you! ..Are three of the silliest girls in England. All? What? All five out at once? How much I shall have to conceal! Yes, go, go...I would not wish you back again. Perhaps we might visit Pemberley after all! Of all this I might have been mistress. (one of my favorites) Who is it? You will never guess! Who is it? Mr Darcy! Engaged to Mr. Darcy! No, you are joking!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (12:03)", "body": "We need more lines, of course, so do not hesitate to add to them. But I believe that we need some additional couples lines up for our version of MB Maggot; how could I forget Kali and Jeremy Knightley?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "summit", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:10)", "body": "Seeing no photo as yet here of our delectable Colin Firth, here 'tis:"}, {"response": 27, "author": "summit", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:12)", "body": "Hmm. Or, go see it at... http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/firthlist/fl_colin.htm"}, {"response": 28, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:18)", "body": "That link.. Now, I don't speak any Finnish. But I think I can work out what SEKSISYMBOLI means in relation to CF."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:19)", "body": "]lines which must be spoken in unison the whole of Mrs. Bennet's 'fluttering' speech, ending with (paraphrasing since I haven't seen it this week) \"Brother, if you are not kind to us, I do not know what we shall do!\""}, {"response": 30, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "My dear Kate (and everyone else), I certainly intended no slight on anyone at all. My grouping of the Brit, Aussie, ... accents was undoubtedly the result of my own ear's inadequate discernment, I know. Please do not shoot me. I certainly can hear some distinct qualities, but my lumping them together is more a function of the result they produce, rather than an assumption that there is no difference. I don't doubt that the American accents don't generate the same drool potential in others! Heavens, we tend to poke fun at our own regional differences, as well. However, I still maintain that these (accents of people who speak English as their native tongue, regardless of the country - except USA) have a mighty power over the average, unsuspecting, red-blooded, American female. Anybody? [now, did I fix it?]"}, {"response": 31, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:26)", "body": "Unison lines: has anybody suggested the several \"Oh, Mr. Bennet!\"s"}, {"response": 32, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:37)", "body": "I suggest some of us wear snouts so we can snort along with Lydia!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "] I certainly intended no slight on anyone at all And absolutely none was taken Cindy. I was just using the opportunity to vent a bit. I quite like being mistaken for a Brit occasionally. People are actually quite shocked to think we don't all sound like Paul Hogan. It's especially amusing because some upper class Brits regard OUR accent as particularly obnoxious, so when they discover that many Americans can't tell the difference, they get a bit miffed!!! So just enjoy that Aussie male, aurally if not in person. I can let you know where there are more, if that would help!!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:21)", "body": "so, I grovelled for nothing?"}, {"response": 35, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:34)", "body": "Fraid so. :-)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:37)", "body": "33 : People are actually quite shocked to think we don't all sound like Paul Hogan. Know the feeling, a couple of years ago someone thought I was from France, and when I told him I came from Quebec, never did he know some were speaking french in North America and to my knowledge he still do not believe it (thinks I was pulling his leg)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "candace", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:44)", "body": "Well, now that we have established how wonderful it would be for all of us together to do a \"Rocky Horror Picture Show\" event with P&P2, do you think that if we got our husbands and significant others together they would act more like \"Mystery Science Theater 3000\"?"}, {"response": 38, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:51)", "body": "can you imagine the gnashing of teeth trying to get them to fill out the couples for the Maggot? not a happy thought"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (00:26)", "body": "But when a Scot starts talking.... ;-) Heavy, HEAVY *sigh* ...and the Irish ain't too bad, neither! Another favorite (I'm paraphrasing here): You will be sorely missed, Lizzie. Until you and your sister Jane return, I shall not hear two words of sense spoken together."}, {"response": 40, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (01:30)", "body": "Re American's fascination with British accents and the rest of the world being decidedly unimpressed with American ones: The culprit here is American movies and television. They are all over the world, Baywatch is the highest rated American television show overseas, for heaven's sake! The American accent is all pervasive and holds no mystery, no allure, it is too common the world over. But in the US, we hear British accents almost exclusively on PBS and in highly cultured, literary adaptations. It is no wonder that we find the British accent to be intellegent, sophisticated, mysterious. The lesson, my friends is that familiarity does indeed breed contempt!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (07:48)", "body": "Susan, thanks for mentioning the Irish! Reading your comment, I just remembered the name of the miniseries that introduced Pierce Brosnan to me - The Manions of America. I forget what his character, but decidedly less polished than Remington Steele, but ever so nice"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Ann", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (12:13)", "body": "\"The culprit here is American movies and television. They are all over the world, Baywatch is the highest rated American television show overseas, for heaven's sake!\" Actually, I think \"Babewatch\" has been supplanted by \"Hercules\"!! Which I actually think might be a slight improvement. \"Hercules\" has a sense of humor about itself. I loved \"Mannions of America\". My best friend and I met and became friends because of that show and later \"Remington Steele\"."}, {"response": 43, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (00:39)", "body": "I cannot believe it! I have just uploaded 300 sound bytes from P&P2 (many requested by people in the Pemberley chat room, yet you have chosen many that are NOT on the list! If your browser can do sounds, click on the underlined quotes. Some are a bit large and you might have to wait 2 or 3 minutes for them to transfer. (For a complete list of what is already uploaded, check out topic 17 in the Austentest conference.) Lines that must be spoken in unison; Other way, Mr. Collins.. Hearts, Mr. Collins, hearts! I would that he had sprained his ankle in the first dance. Astonishing.. and.. is it true? Abominable reply; how shall we punish him? They are hard upon our heels, make haste, make haste! Shelves in the closet...happy thought, indeed. AWWWW I want to go to Brighton!!! Obstinate, headstrong gel! No lace, no lace, Mrs. Bennet, I beg you! ..Are three of the silliest girls in England. All? What? All five out at once? How much I shall have to conceal! Yes, go, go...I would not wish you back again. Perhaps we might visit Pemberley after all! Of all this I might have been mistress. (one of my favorites) Who is it? You will never guess! Who is it? Mr Darcy! Engaged to Mr. Darcy! No, you are joking! You will be sorely missed, Lizzie. Until you and your sister Jane return, I shall not hear two words of sense spoken together."}, {"response": 44, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (09:41)", "body": "What a treasure-trove of goodies! Maybe we need to change the name of this thread to 'Feeding our Addiction."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (12:58)", "body": "[some upper class Brits regard OUR accent as particularly obnoxious, so when they discover that many Americans can't tell the difference, they get a bit miffed!!!] Kate, Some upperclass Brits regard anything outside their own circle as obnoxious! Fortunately for us, our favourite upperclass Brit, residing in Derbyshire, does learn his lesson. May I say here that I find many North American accents delightful? Iam paricularly fond of the Newfoundland and Georgia ones!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (16:06)", "body": "In years of traveling alone to large meetings, when surrounded by strangers, I learned to listen for Georgia and Mississippi accents. The people who used them were the most open to welcoming a lone 40-something woman into their conversations - to their table at the banquet."}, {"response": 47, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:47)", "body": "Oh, what a nice recommendation!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (08:35)", "body": "Okay, Katy, tell . Why are people from Geo'ga and MississIppee so friendly?"}, {"response": 49, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (11:51)", "body": "Why are people from Geo'ga and MississIppee so friendly?... I do not know. May it was only very gracious manners and not friendliness at all. I only learned that on those occassions then I was without acquaintances and was running low on social 'moxie', I could count on GA and MS natives for safe anchorage. Since my own accept is hybrid \"Mid-West-East-Tennessee-Southern-Ontario\" that no one in the country identifies with, it was not because I sounded 'like home' to them. Once, during a budget conscious time in our travel department, I (and many others in the meeting group) ended up with a rather scary three block walk between the hotel and the convention center. Any man would kindly accept my company between buildings if I asked him to. GA and MS men seemed to look around for women going their way and would offer their company for the walk."}, {"response": 50, "author": "Mari", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (13:24)", "body": "Well, I must tell you my story about a very witty southerner. This is a true story. We had flown into Kansas City, MO, and had a car reserved at Thrifty Car Rental. They were off-site, and we had to take a shuttle there. It was about 10 pm. When we got there, there were only two people ahead of us, so it looked pretty good. 30 minutes later we had been joined by more arrivals, who all waited and watched with us in increasing exasperation at the inefficiency of their check-in routine, and the dim-wit edness of the staff. We had yet to be waited on. At this point, all three of the staff had left the office on some part of their mysterious duties, and one woman in the crowd said, clearly and calmly, ''This is the slowest place I've ever been, and I'm from Alabama''. The room was still resounding with snickers 10 minutes later when we were finally called to the counter. Five years later I still grin when I think about this, or whenever I meet anyone from Alabama!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (06:38)", "body": "Another sign: Your friends ask you why are you so quiet, how can you explain you're thinking about the next chapter in Anne's story?"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:59)", "body": "LOL, Aylet ! And you are never bored, cause if there is a spare moment you can sink back into P&P and write a few words... austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 187, "subject": "Forget this topic", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 188, "subject": "More Darcy's Story", "response_count": 57, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (08:20)", "body": "Recent messages about Darcy's Story: __ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 164 of 198: Karen Bowdre (Karen) * Sat, Feb 8, 1997 (00:09) * 1 lines If any of you discuss 'Darcy's Story' at Pemberley, let me know when. One suggestion - not this weekend, since I won't have access to chat. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 165 of 198: Sharon (sld) * Sun, Feb 9, 1997 (17:09) * 4 lines [ not this weekend, since I won't have access to chat ] When will you have access? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 166 of 198: Anne (Anne3) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:14) * 8 lines The nice folks at Copperfield Books read my sad tale of getting a defective copy of Darcy's Story, and sent me a replacement, with their compliments! Now that is what I call handsome, gentleman/womanlike behavior! They sent it out airmail on Monday, Feb. 3rd, and I received it later that week, even though their order form says to allow 28 days for delivery. Their address is: Copperfield Books Room 38 Hillbrook House Lyncombe Vale Road Bath BA2 4LS England Copies are 9 pounds including postage. An international money order can be obtained (in the U.S. at least) at post offices, and is equivilent to about $14, same price as at JA Books. Five copies are 36 pounds, a 20% saving. Now how do I get any work done today with this sitting on my desk? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 167 of 198: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:33) * 1 lines It IS extremely addictive! I couldn't help re-reading within a few days either. Just really liked Aylmer's approach and choices. Any word as to when we can do the \"advance crit\"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 168 of 198: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:37) * 2 lines Who has it on order now and wants us to wait. Tell when you expect it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 169 of 198: Johanne (JohanneD) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (14:48) * 1 lines I do, expecting it end of Feb, early March from JABooks, maybe sooner ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 170 of 198: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (16:20) * 2 lines I ordered by fax on friday to the internet book store. I got confirmation of the order this morning by email. So I am now playing the waiting game. I also ordered my own copy of \"Making of....\" after renewing the library's copy for 3 months. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 171 of 198: Ann (Ann) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (17:51) * 1 lines Does anyone know how many copies JABooks still has in stock. (I know they have been ambivelent about telling people). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 172 of 198: Lisa (lisaC) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:35) * 1 lines It is very addicitve. I have just begun reading it for a third time to get ready for the discussion but it appears that I'll have enough time to read it a forth time before we start analyzing it to death. I can't wait I hope your copies arrive soon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 173 of 198: Lisa (lisaC) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:37) * 1 lines Maybe I should start watch Sesame Street to learn how to spell FOURTH, but I fear my addiction has overtaken my senses and barely anything can tear me away from anything that's not P&P related. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 174 of 198: maud dixon (maud) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (18:39) * 6 lines I thought I'd get my copy this week from the bookstore in Boston (Waterstone?). I called today and they told me it's on back order b/c so many people have asked for it. I was angry b/c they'd told me 3 weeks ago they'd call if it needed to be back ordered. Trid JA Books and couldn't even get them on the phone. I'll try Copperfield tommorrow. Feeling somewhat desparate and definitely deprived atTthis point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 114 of 187 [austen]: Darcy's Story Response 175 of 198: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (19:15) * 2 lines Oooh, looks like we need a director. Cheryl, Amy2 or anybody else, you want to coordinate, set the start date and organize borrowing arrangements? I'll make my copy will be available for loan by mail by the weekend. ------------------------------------------------"}, {"response": 2, "author": "June", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "Thanks, Cheryl. I believe I'll give Jane Austin Books a call first, though. Will let you know..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (21:58)", "body": "I emailed JA books last Saturday (15th) but no sign of my book yet. Panic!!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (00:23)", "body": "Kate, I finally got an E-mail message from JABooks late last night - they're all out, but expect to ship this week. Methinks I'll be way behind!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (11:26)", "body": "Amy2: Do divulge your master plan, Cheryl! OK. I think the time is now right to now reveal the MASTER PLAN Step 1. Read Darcy's Story. Step 2. Post your thoughts, reactions, insights, quips, rants and bon mots here at this topic beginning this Saturday, March 1. End of Master Plan. It's brillancy lies in it's simplicity, I believe..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (14:09)", "body": "Cheryl dear, the mere sound of your voice is great !"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (14:15)", "body": "Hybris got me there, I tried one of Ann's new movable darlings but it all came to nothing."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (16:36)", "body": "Ann2: Cheryl dear, the mere sound of your voice is great ! Ann darling, I miss you! :-( Email me, we must set a time to meet at Pemberley! :-)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (17:09)", "body": "Hooray!!! Book arrived today. Now a crash read before Saturday...."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (22:39)", "body": "Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! Go Kate! ;-)"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (23:16)", "body": "As an ignorant newcomer, I am tempted to rush out an order a copy of the book too. But having read Emma Tennant's \"An unequal Marriage - P&P continued\", which I found totally repulsive, can anyone advise if Darcy's Story would fare better to an ardent admirer of JA's P&P ???"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (00:29)", "body": "Serena: can anyone advise if Darcy's Story would fare better to an ardent admirer of JA's P&P ??? You may just want to wait til the discussion begins here on Saturday and see if the reviews are favorable or not. :-)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (00:37)", "body": "Cheryl is also organising a book swap. People who have a copy might be able to mail you a copy, then you can pass it on when you are done."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (07:17)", "body": "I just finished it last night. :-)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:28)", "body": "Finished!!!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Mari", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:37)", "body": "Finished my second (slower) reading yesterday, thanks to Tracey's loan. I'm afraid I won't be in the discussion until Monday (computer access only at work, don't you know), but this will not, as usual, prevent me from adding my tuppence worth."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:32)", "body": "I, too only have access at work, but I'm looking very forward to Monday!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:37)", "body": "One of these days, we have to figure out how to make this system -- or another -- send posts by email. There are ways."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! Yea Kate! ;-)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (15:51)", "body": "Cheryl, not that you've revealed your MASTER PLAN, I have to admit it IS brilliant in its simplicity! And here I thought we'd all have to meet on a dark corner somewhere in Bath, wearinng muslin dresses and a carnation!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (16:53)", "body": "Now, let me see....we are supposed to discuss it first, then read it. Right?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:02)", "body": "What shall I do? Oh, what shall I do? Mine's in transit, I hope! Torn between wanting to know right away when you guys start your discussion, and wanting to read the book first before being influenced by your excellent opinions. What to do, oh, what to do! (I'm in a rabbit stew)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (08:03)", "body": "Amy, would it be a good idea to do a separate thread for the DS discussion on textual errors, inconsistencies, mistakes etc (so we could just make a great big list of them all) and leave the main thread for discussion about the substantive merits of the book? Oh, and BYW, it might be an idea (what do other people think?) to copy and send our comments to Copperfield Books? The author might be interested in what a group of Austen addicts (who aren't academic purists) think of her book? But then again, maybe we should wait and see what we say...."}, {"response": 24, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (08:04)", "body": "BTW, that should be BTW not BYW"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (08:07)", "body": "Good idea on the seperate topic, Kate. It would distract. Janet does come here once in a while."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (12:06)", "body": "Amy2, RE#20; and the lace, my dear :)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (13:17)", "body": "Amy do you mean janet the author Janet?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (14:36)", "body": "] Amy do you mean janet the author Janet? ___ Yes. According to the user list she hasn't stopped by for about a month, though."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:56)", "body": "Serena, I've read Emma Tennat's first P&P sequel; it is amazing to me that someone allowed her to write one let alone two but I'll not start raving yet. Having said all that, I think you will enjoy Darcy's Story. I can lend my copy to you, if you like."}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:23)", "body": "I think we should let Janet A. make the choice if she wants to read our comments or not. I speak feelingly as a fellow writer. . ."}, {"response": 31, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:25)", "body": "But should we let her know that we're doing it?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (08:57)", "body": "About Janet Aylmer's involvement,, I think that many people would feel uncomfortable about expressing their feelings if they knew that she would be following the discussion. People should feel free to weigh in with negative comments if they wish; there's not much point in discussing the book if all we say is \"liked it\" and \"thank you.\" Of course there's no way of preventing Janet from reading the posts and we wouldn't want to anyway, but while we're \"talking\" I think we should feel free to be as uninhi ited as usual. ;-)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (09:25)", "body": "I agree with Anne, being an author you should already be prepared for some criticism. It would be unnatural if she wasn't. If you liked the book great and if you didn't it should be why. Personally, sequels are never as good as the original. I have not read Darcy's story and really have no inclination to. I can imagine what continued after the last page in the book. By all means we have the Constitution of the United States that clearly states that we have the Freedom of Press and Freedom of Speech. So go to it gals and no holds barred."}, {"response": 34, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (10:34)", "body": "I don't mean to censor our discussion! I just think that before sending off a list of our comments to Janet, we should ask her whether she wants to receive them or not. I know that Harlan Ellison, the great sf short story writer, DOES NOT want to see comments on his work posted to his topic on GEnie, and that's certainly his perogative."}, {"response": 35, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (11:31)", "body": "I would very much prefer Janet Aylmer deciding for herself to read our comments. We may have the pleasure of expressing what we think but let's not force it upon her. She knows that we are reading it and am sure she'll make the connection as to some comments might follow as well. Freedom of speach is precious but let's keep it under good regulation shall we?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "Amy2: I just think that before sending off a list of our comments to Janet, we should ask her whether she wants to receive them or not. Amy, I don't believe there is any reason or need for us to send off our unsolicited comments to the author. She is registered for Spring, if she wishes to read our comments, she may without having them forced upon her. Sounds like it will be an interesting discussion tomorrow...looking forward to it! ;-)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Anne", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "Help!!! I have been frantically searching bookstores for Darcy's Story, but no luck. Most of them haven't even heard of it! Stupid people! I am probably asking a question that's been asked and answered a billion times before but is there any bookstore that I can just pick the book up at or is it all mail order from internet? I would appreciate any info. even though I won't make it in time for the discussion."}, {"response": 38, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "Amy/Cheryl Are we going to have a separate thread for typos, mistakes, inconsistencies with P&P and with itself etc? I didn't want to go ahead and do this without the approval of the supervisors.... ;-)"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (00:03)", "body": "Anne, try JABooks@aol.com. No, you won't find it generally available. You are in the US?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (14:27)", "body": "Anne, re your #37 post - I received one from Waterstone's in Boston yesterday. In the mean time I had ordered one from the Jane Austin Bookstore in Chicago. They do have it in stock and are mailing it to me Monday. If you want me to get it and forward it to you I will. If I don't hear from you or see a posting regarding this by Sunday nite I am calling Monday a.m. and cancelling it. You may e-mail me at Pandora620@AOL."}, {"response": 41, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (14:44)", "body": "I will just say that all in all I thought Darcy's Story was a nice read. It was not any better than what our Derbyshire Writers' Guild has created, although it was certainly more complete. I would have liked more conversation between Darcy and his friends/relations during incidences not mentioned in P&P. But I thought most of it seemed to remain in character."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (15:03)", "body": "Anne, re your #37 and my #40 post, I didn't give you full e-mail address: Pandora620@AOL.com."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (17:51)", "body": "Karen.. (of Resp. 29), you are sincerely, all generosity.. But I fear I live on the other side of the world from you.. I suspect I'll be purchasing a copy of Darcy's story from JABooks store. I didn't read 'Pemberbely' but accidentially found An unequal marriage while on holidays in Australia - thought it would be great airplane-reading, but it left a foul taste in the mouth. I had to read P&P again after that to satisfy myself. .I cannot even bring myself to shelve the book with my JA's collection - it seems unappropriate. Thank you again. ."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:01)", "body": "I agree with Kathleen. \"Darcy's Story\" is a very pleasant, quick read and does stay true to the original P&P, with only very few added scenes. On my second time through, though, I wasn't as enthralled as the first time; somehow our slew of writers at Pemberley Writers Guild, taken together, give a more complete picture of Darcy than does this book. I liked the touch of Darcy's second private talk with Mr. Bennet, after the latter knew of Darcy's part in the Lydia-Wickham affair. I especially like Darcy's lines: \"And without her beside me, there can be no happiness for me in the future. So let there be no more talk of repayment, I beg of you. your consent to our marriage is more than enough compensation for me.\" I also liked the added trip to London before the wedding. The more I think about it, I like it very well, I like it very well indeed!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (19:47)", "body": "Generally, I liked it very much, as well. That trash peddled by Emma Tennant-this is not! In particular, I liked the way she began the book, highlighting Darcy's shyness and lonliness, and sincere desire to duplicate the happy marriage of his parents. I also liked the expanded role of Georgiana as Darcy's confidant. She sees through Caroline Bingley long before he does. I liked the way she described Darcy's thoughts on his way to London: \"What irony of fate was it that Wickham seemed to continue to have t e power to injure him in those matters most dear to his heart. Also, I enjoyed the scene at the Gardiners when the eldest daughter asks Darcy if he likes Elizabeth: \"She is someone on whom I know I can always rely.\" One thing I did have a problem with, though, was her over-reliance on JA. Obviously, the allusions are welcome and necessary, but some pages read like direct quotes, and others could have been better incorporated. Darcy's reaction upon learning of Mr Collin's proposal(\"it does not bear thinking about\") also struck me as kind of awkward and contrived, even forced."}, {"response": 46, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (20:01)", "body": "] Darcy's reaction upon learning of Mr Collin's proposal(\"it does not bear thinking about\") also struck me as kind of awkward and contrived, even forced. Cassandra -- I agree. This seemed the most awkward of the additions to me. Plus, I have trouble believing Mr Bennet would have shared such news (Mrs Bennet, maybe, but not Mr Bennet). And Darcy's reaction was too much, since there was never any chance of Elizabeth marrying Mr Collins."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Opus1", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (20:33)", "body": "I haven't had a chance to read the book, having received it yesterday, but did want to tell anyone who is searching that I ordered the book from Waterstone's in Boston on Wednesday evening and it was on my doorstep in Virginia on Friday. The charge was $12 + $4.11 S&H. Their number is 617/859-7300. I hope that the book is as good as their delivery service."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Karen", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:06)", "body": "Overall I liked Darcy Story; I liked it more the second time around (the Guild has spoiled me exceedingly). I agree with Cassandra, Kathleen and Inko's comments regarding the positives of the book such as the better understanding of Darcy's shyness and Georgiana's expanded role. I also would have like to have seen more dialog with Darcy's and friends. The conversation with Lady C. was very amusing."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (12:11)", "body": "I'll put this info on here one more time. If I do not receive a request by tonight I'll call Monday a.m. and have book cancelled. I received a copy of Darcy's Story from Waterstones in Boston and just before I did I put in an order to Jane Austen books in Chicago. They have it and are mailing it to me this coming week. If anyone wants me to get it and forward it to them e-mail me at Pandora620@AOL.com or failing to be able to e-mail me, put a post on today. I am unable to to e-mail a lot of places off AOL, so put name and address. I did enjoy it and, no - it was not another Tennant badie. Ann, I think you were the one who wanted it badly."}, {"response": 50, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (13:16)", "body": "Again, what I liked the best was the begining. I like the way she described Darcy's transformation from this proud, completely in control person to this ardent, romantic would-be suitor, overwhelmed by his passion for Miss Elizabeth Bennet. Notably: \"Before he knew what he had done, Darcy had written a swift note to his cousin Fitzwilliam.\" \"Despite himself, and contrary to any intention of which he was consciously aware, after another half hour he found himself ringing the bell at the parsonage......but nything was better than not being in her presence.\" I loved thoses passages, cetainly in keeping with my impressions of Mr Darcy! I also noticed how her many descriptions of Darcy's long, lingering looks had CF written all over them! What I didn't enjoy as much were the later passages, after the second proposal. Without JA to rely on, Ms Aylmer's imagination seemed to have been stifled. I didn't like the Collins addition and the others seemed abrupt, unimaginative, and awkward. We expect more from Darcy and Elizabeth. I particularly thought the scene in Lady Catherine's room, when Darcy tells Lizzy the room is hers, was disapointing. It was over before it began."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Cass, I agree with you about some of the later scenes, but I still do like the second talk with Mr. Bennet, re: repayment for Lydia/Wickham expense. I like the idea of them going to London, but agree with you (and Lizzie) that her father (and Aylmer) should not have mentioned Collins' proposal - and I don't think Mr. Bennet would have mentioned it. The last two chapters are very abrupt, I agree. My whole trouble is that I have now read Darcy's Story twice, and our own fan fiction countless times so that I'm completely muddled as to who wrote what!!!;-)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:42)", "body": "I too liked the book on the whole. I liked Aylmer's faithfulness to Austen and to the period. But I have to agree that much of what's posted at our Derbyshire's Writer's Guild is superior, because it seems to me that those stories give more of an insight into Darcy's inner turmoil and feelings. Since DARCY'S STORY is written from _his_ P.O.V., I thought he shouldn't have remained as much of an enigma as he did in P&P. But I really liked the choice of making Georgiana Darcy's confidante -- this seems he e choice. I also enjoyed the scene where Darcy gets to experience Lady C's \"abuse\" of Elizabeth & account of their \"chat\" at Longbourne firsthand. I agree that I would have liked to see more original material, and less Austen. We are probably a more jaded group than the average readership, because we are so incredibly familiar with the text, and having to re-read it within the context of a new book gets a bit tedious."}, {"response": 53, "author": "maud", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (17:08)", "body": "I now find myself with 2 copies of Darcy's Story. Anyone who nees one can e-mail me at arab@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us. Let me know, Maud"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (09:00)", "body": "I, too, enjoyed the book. Her characterizations are usually right in line with my impressions. I think that we have had so many excellent stories here that contain so much imagination and passion, that we have come to expect a great deal of both. I noticed a bit of Davies' influence. One example which takes place at the Lambton Inn, \"Without realising what he did, Darcy took the nearest chair and, leaning forward, took her hand in his.\" JA allows no touching on this occation. I was a little ambivalent about Georgiana becoming his confidante, at first. But on subsequent readings, it seemed more natural. One thing that I noticed, Aylmer does not have Darcy considering Bingley as a match for Georgiana as JA does in Chapter 45. \"Not a syllable had ever reached her of Miss Darcy's meditated elopement. To no creature had it been revealed, where secrecy was possible, except to Elizabeth; and from Bingley's connections her brother was particularly anxious to conceal it from that very wish which Elizabeth had long ago attributed to him, of their becoming hereafter her own. He had certainly formed such a plan, and without meaning that it should affect his endeavour to separate him from Miss Bennet, it is probable that it might ad something to his lively concern for the welfare of his friend. All in all, I think that Janet Aylmer did a very good job and stayed very true to the book. I enjoyed Darcy's story very much. Linda"}, {"response": 55, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:59)", "body": "Can anyone give me the ISBN for this book? I haven't been able to find it either. I'd like to try to get it on interlibrary loan and read it before I buy it. Now that so many people have said it is good, I'd really like to read it. And now I know that perhaps I shouldn't buy the Tenant books!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "]And now I know that perhaps I shouldn't buy the Tenant books! Indeed you should NOT! I found Darcy's Story to be a quick, enjoyable read. I seem to agree with what has been said so far: Liked Georgiana being a confidant, the nice additional scenes (I would have like to some originality when Darcy finds Wickham/Lydia--not just quoting from JA), etc. Disliked the overreliance on JA, the Collins engagemnt bit (specially as I think Darcy probably heard the gossip re:Mr. C's intentions at the N'Field ball). On the whole though, I did like it alot."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:42)", "body": "Lynn, You may want to try Jane Austen Books, that's where I got mine. I sent them an e-mail request and they sent the book to my house with an invoice for $14.00. Jane Austen Books 860 N. Lake Shore Dr., Ste. 21-J Chicago, IL 60611-1751 (312) 266-0080 fax (312) 266-0081 JABooks@ail.com ISBN 0-9528210-2-8 Good luck. Linda austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 19, "subject": "Does this work?", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 19, "author": "geekman", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:36)", "body": "G'day, Joan I'm a fool! ( he he ) I tested out the CREATE TOPIC button at the top of the page and it worked!!! Don't worry about any ERROR messages. Just go back into the AUSTEN CONFERENCE, hit NEW in the string and voila! hey presto! the new Topic appears at the bottom. Perhaps I should not have started this?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:43)", "body": "NO fool, you - but you have mistaken the object of my question. However, this serves to bring up a new one? Are we able to remove topics such as this if they prove to be - shall I say - less than useful? ;-)"}, {"response": 19, "author": "geekman", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:46)", "body": "G'day, Yes Joan I like that topic as it shows just how much a fool I am. Open Mouth...Insert Foot..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (05:48)", "body": "] Are we able to remove topics such as this if they prove to be - shall I say - less than useful? ;-) We will be able to, Joan, I just haven't gotten the user name and password yet for the shell account that will permit me to do the host duties. I will find out as soon as I can how many of us Terry will allow to have co-host keys."}, {"response": 19, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (10:46)", "body": "As many as you want. Send me a list of names. Email me. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 191, "subject": "The Magic 30 minutes", "response_count": 22, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (10:42)", "body": "Actually, Anne, wasn't it the Colonel who waited a half hour?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (10:43)", "body": "There is something nice about a 30-minute period."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (13:15)", "body": "Actually, in P&P2 the Colonel waits for her for nearly half an hour, but in the book it is almost a full hour. Darcy only stops by briefly to take his leave. I have always wondered whether the Colonel's extended visit was just because he liked Lizzy very much and didn't want to leave without the chance to say good-bye, or if Darcy had asked him to make himself available to Lizzy in case she had any questions to ask him. One of my favorite lines in P&P (for being so terribly tortured for our hero) is: \"If your abhorence of me should make my assertions valueless, you can not be prevented by the same cause from confiding in my cousin; and that there may be the possibility of consulting with him, I shall endeavor to find some opportunity of putting this letter in your hands in the course of the morning.\" It must have been heart-wrenching for him to think that the woman he loves abhors him (I can't help thinking of him as a living breathing and ( for Cheryl ) bathing human being.) So, I think maybe he said a word or two to his cousin, something along the lines of: \"Fitzwilliam, I would like you do to do me a favour. Would you try to find an opportunity to speak alone with Miss Bennet today. I believe she may have something she wishes to ask you. If she does, I would like you to answer in full--no matter what the question. Will you?\" I'm sure Fitzwilliam would have been glad to have another moment alone with Lizzy, and if she had returned, he might have suggested a short walk in the garden."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (13:26)", "body": "Moved from \"propose new threads\" topic: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 6 of 191 [austen]: Propose new threads here Response 62 of 62: Donna (Donna) * Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (13:15) * 4 lines There are 3 reasons: 1. Proper thing to do is say good bye to Lizzie and The Collin's 2. Col. Fiztwilliam (was there) would back him up on the Wickham and Georgiana elopement if needed. 3. He would not see her again and would not know her feelings about the letter. If she wrote a return letter it would mean that they were engaged and if he would write her again it would mean the same."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (19:03)", "body": "Sorry about that \"Senior Moment\" - getting my \"Fitzwilliams\" mixed up! If Lizzie wrote a return letter they would be engaged? Oh my...I think Darcy had made up his mind to marry Lizzy, which is why he wrote the letter, but he also did want to know her feelings. Do you think at that time, while still emotional, he would have, dare I say it, grovelled. Or at least asked forgivness? I have trouble getting into any chat area- it lookes like I log in 15 times. often I just get a blank grey screen, or I can' log off. embarassing, but I'm sure it's our PC"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (22:57)", "body": "Maybe ATT World Net has the same trouble with the chat room that AOL and Prodigy has, Anne."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (11:27)", "body": "I do have a question -- after that horrific proposal & Darcy handing Lizzie the letter, he actually shows up back at Hunsford to take his leave. Wouldn't it have been terribly awkward of him to see her after all that's past? Or was he just doing it for propriety's sake?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (12:18)", "body": "Amy2: Wouldn't it have been terribly awkward of him to see her after all that's past? Or was he just doing it for propriety's sake? yes...and yes. ;-)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (16:32)", "body": "I suspect he was fairly certain that she would not see him in any case, and it would have looked very bad to leave without attempting to say goodbye - that would have raised more comment."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (17:24)", "body": "I think Darcy probably went to the parsonage right after handing Lizzie the letter so as he'd be sure not to see her there. He said his good-byes and left right away. Col. Fitz probably went later and waited around longer."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (17:46)", "body": "I'd always assumed he went to the parsonage first, intending to give her the letter; how else would he have been sure she was out walking? Finding her out he went after her to give her the letter, rather than wait for her at the cottage and endure the Collinses company in the meantime..."}, {"response": 12, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (18:05)", "body": "According to the book... Elizabeth goes toward the place where she normally walks, then remembers that Darcy sometimes goes there. So she goes for a walk along the lane. As she passes one of the gates to the park (ie Rosings) she sees a gentleman in a sort of grove edging the park. He calls out to her and when she approaches, holds out the letter and says \"I have been walking in the grove some time in the hope of meeting you.\" Presumably it would have been easier to give her the letter in private than in front of everyone. Earlier in the story, Lizzy is puzzled by the fact that she ofter runs into D on her walks, and that even when she makes a point of telling him that she often walks that way, he still turns up. He obviously knew that she would be likely to go for a walk that morning."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (21:08)", "body": "Inko, I hadnt thought about him hurring back. I guess I see him, at first, as a spoiled, rich aristrocrat who Lizzy tempers. maybe thats the catch - Havent we wanted to smooth off rough edges of the men we love.? It never works in reality, but it did in the book..Lizzy turns a sour puss into a caring loving husband.I bet you all have already discussed this!!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "Inko, I hadnt thought about him hurring back. I guess I see him, at first, as a spoiled, rich aristrocrat who Lizzy tempers. maybe thats the catch - Havent we wanted to smooth off rough edges of the men we love.? It never works in reality, but it did in the book..Lizzy turns a sour puss into a caring loving husband.I bet you all have already discussed this!!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (21:10)", "body": "I dont know why it posted twice sorry. I miss the pony express..."}, {"response": 16, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (20:30)", "body": "Something earlier about actually asking Col. to make himself available to Eliz. - hasn't he talked her up to him already. Even before Fitzwilliam meets her. Some comments from Fitz. when he's with her early on. All these new people Liza. runs into seem to have already heard a bit about her, esp. from someone who broods and doesn't talk much."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (20:36)", "body": "Ann in response #3.....I like your idea of what most likely happened in regards to Col Fitzwilliam waiting for Lizzy at the parsonage. Since Darcy already told Lizzy that he could substantiate the story he told her in his letter.....and it seemed very important to Darcy that Lizzy believed the truth about him...I could see that he might ask his cousin to be available to answer any questions Lizzy may have...or just to be there to say \"it's all true!\""}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (11:14)", "body": "So you guys think that Darcy knew Lizzy was still in the groves reading his letter when he came to call, so as to avoid seeing her at the Parsonage? If they had met again here, it seems it would have been terribly awkward for both."}, {"response": 19, "author": "gianine", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:13)", "body": "I like the idea that Both gentlemen came to call to say goodbye. Darcy leaves to avoid running into Lizzy. But Fitzwilliam stays on to say his farewells. It makes sense to me."}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (15:55)", "body": "But did he KNOW she wouldn't show up immediately, so he could leave in safety?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (18:55)", "body": "There was WAY too much in that letter for her to just read it & head home. Very obviously she had strong negative feelings toward him. He knew she would be affected by the information he presented - probably still disgusted with him. No way she could just read it and head home. Surely he realized she wouldn't want to chance being interrupted by Mr. Collins, or anybody. So, getting to the point, he definitely knew she would still be out when he stopped by!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "OK, thanks Cindy. I finally got my answer! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 192, "subject": "Romance in P&P", "response_count": 24, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (02:33)", "body": "Last week's worth of messages from the old topic: Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 153 of 184: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (11:15) * 2 lines You all are probably right as far as the book is concerned. But in any of the P&P dramatizations, when anyone even mentions \"Mr. Darcy\" around Lizzy after Proposal #1, she acts like she's going to burst out of her skin! So I'm going to accord Jane the sensitivity of realizing that something is amiss if her own sister is acting so jumpy! I'm referring particuarly to when Lydia spills the beans about Darcy being the Best Man at her wedding. Listen to the way Ehle says: \"Mr. _Darcy_?\" And all of her agon zing about losing his good opinion in P&P2. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 154 of 184: Johanne (JohanneD) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (14:59) * 1 lines I'm with you Amy2, Jane must have suspected something, anything, Lizzy was way to obvious. But what strikes me though is that Jane looks like she just doesn't get it, no reactions, no questions, no implied allusions to anything. Only perhaps her slight smile when Lizzy says Darcy was there when she received news of Lydia's elopment. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 155 of 184: Ann (Ann) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (17:49) * 1 lines Also, Jane's reaction when Bingley and Darcy return to Hertfordshire and call on the Bennet's. She has too much of a smile on her face if she still thinks Lizzy doesn't care for Darcy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 156 of 184: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (20:05) * 1 lines Jane was basically incapable of suspicion - and also, at the time of Bingley's return to Netherfield, much too preoccupied with her own feelings and emotions to be particularly observant of anyone else's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 157 of 184: Sharon (sld) * Mon, Feb 10, 1997 (20:50) * 4 lines [ So I'm going to accord Jane the sensitivity of realizing that something is amiss if her own sister is acting so jumpy!] In the book, what Jane did know was a) Elizabeth turned down the proposal; b) that Elizabeth was uncomfortable about having prejudged Mr. Darcy; and when Darcy was coming to Longbourn with Bingley, that Elizabeth was about to face the guy she turned down. Jane could have attrubuted Elizebeth's nervousness to these things. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 158 of 184: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (10:57) * 1 lines Did Jane know that Lizzy had already bumped into Mr. Darcy at Pemberley? Or was everyone too caught up in the Lydia Fiasco at that point to mention it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 159 of 184: Donna (Donna) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (11:36) * 1 lines Yes, Lizzie told Jane. Jane's reply \"Mr. Darcy knows of our troubles\"? Lizzie \"He happen upon me while I was reading your letter\". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 160 of 184: kathleen (elder) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (14:30) * 4 lines But I do not believe that Lizzy said this in the book. Lizzy tells Jane very little of what happened at Pemberley, because she does not want to mention Bingley's name. When Lizzy tells Jane that she & Darcy are engaged, Jane ends their dialogue saying, \"But Lizzy, you have been very sly, very reserved with me. How little did you tell me of what passed at Pemberley and Lambton! I owe all that I know of it, to another, not to you.\" Then Lizzy shares the information about Darcy helping Lydia. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 161 of 184: Sharon (sld) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (19:17) * 4 lines [I owe all that I know of it, to another, not to you.] I always thought this 'other' was Bingley, although it could have been Aunt Gardiner. Before this, Jane had said somthing to the effect of she and Bingley had talked of the possibility of an Elizabeth/Darcy combination, but had decided it not possible. What do you think? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 91 of 192 [austen]: Guilty Pleasures: Romance in P&P Response 162 of 184: Inko (Inko) * Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (19:42) * 1 lines I think Jane meant that she had heard about Lizzie being at Pemberley from Bingley after their engagement. Which would have led them to "}, {"response": 2, "author": "Karen", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "Sharon \"Rolling his eyes?\" Yes, Darcy often rolls his eyes in contempt of others; sometimes they are actually quite funny. My two favorite are when Mrs. Bennet is blathering on about Lydia's marriage (he's standing at the window, Bingley seated) and when Lady C. interrupts his flirting with Lizzy at Rosings. He also rolls his eyes at the Netherfield Ball when dancing with Lizzy. After she makes the comment about \"we are each of an unsocial, taciturn disposition, unwilling to speak, unlesswe expect to say something that will amaz the whole room,\" he comments, this is no very striking resemblance to your own character, I'm sure\" and rolls his eyes. I have to go back to find the second one but the third one is when they are parting (after the dance). Lizzy says she is trying to determine his character and if she doesn't do it now, she wouldn't have another opportunity to do so. He responses (as Amy's photo shows),\"I would by no means suspend any pleasure of yours\" and rolls his eyes again. Anne3 \"Expecting Darcy to be amused assumes that he should find Lizzy's raillery to be cute rather than annoying\" I'm expecting him to be torn about his feelings as he was at Netherfield when Jane and Lizzy finally left. In responding to Caroline Bingley, he said he was happy not to have Lizzy's pert opinions and fine eyes not about but his standing at the window and the look on his face betrayed him. Anne3, you and I may never agree on how this was directed. I just wanted to see him being more pleasant. He looked away from her as she came in and was overall really cold throughout the scene. Whereas in other sce es, Netherfield and Rosings, you could watch him move toward her and then away. At the ball, he, IMHO, never really warms up to her."}, {"response": 3, "author": "mpk", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (22:13)", "body": "I guess I am repeating what my sisters before have eloquently stated already: I really do not see \"romance\" in the Netherfield ball scene but rather the tension and uneasiness that both Darcy and Lizzy feel for each other. Lizzie is so caught up with Wickham's plight that she just cannot wait to throw this in Darcy's face. It was a big step for Darcy to approach, much less ask, Lizzie to dance with him. He is so ill at ease with Lizzie, the woman who he has fallen in love with and is fighting that feeling, that he tries his hardest not to convey these feelings. Instead, he perfects the dance steps (as does Lizzie) and shows that he is rather indifferent/unemotional (in the loving way) toward Lizzie. If he did not already fancy her, I believe he would not have sparred with Lizzie as he did during the dance. At least I felt this way, even with the first viewing, without having read the book. There is such incredible tension in that scene, dare I say sexual tension? After all, it is the first time that Darcy and Lizzie touch and are in such close proximity to each other. CF did a wonderful job of conveying all sorts of feelings throughout... I just love him rolling his eyes when his aunt wants to have her \"share\" of the conversation. It makes him seem somehow less \"proud\" and \"stiff\" and instead rather a bit more \"humane\"..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "mpk", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (22:17)", "body": "Whoops! \"the woman *with whom* he has fallen in love, and lusts after, and is now trying to fight those feelings...\""}, {"response": 5, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (11:57)", "body": "The Netherfield dance scene is really only metaphor for a kind of battlefield. In the war between the sexes, Darcy and Miss Bennett are going through trial by combat. Darcy does not love Eliz. at this point, notwithstanding this business about her fine eyes, his asking Miss Bennet to dance with him, when he knows that she cannot really refuse him is an act of aggresession. He will dance with her, no matter how much he dislikes it, or she dislikes him. More for his own purposes than anything else. H s attraction to Eliz. is simply that of a wealthy, self-centered aristocrat, used to having his way with a lot of women, finally meeting up with someone who acts differently towards him. This is what whets his interest. ANd like most men, he wants to control this woamn, and the relationship, if any. On her part Eliz. Bennett is determined to needle him, to get back at him for putting her through what amounts to an unwanted dance by both parties! Eliz. Bennett is fully determined not to become simply another one of Darcy's conquests. She will not be controlled. Never mind his money and great estates. She, like most women did not want to be forced into this kind of intimacy with Darcy in public. She did want to dance, but being almost forced to, will try to learn something about him. At this point she is merely curious. She has no feelings of love for him yet."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (14:35)", "body": "]... his asking Miss Bennet to dance with him, when he knows that she cannot really refuse him is an act of aggresession.... Carl, the dance scene is my favorite scene from the movie, but I had never considered it in this way. While I knew that Elizabeth could not refuse him because of social strictures, I had not thought about the flip side of the coin---that Darcy would take advantage of this bit of manners and compell Elizabeth to dance with him. Hmmmm.... I'm not certain I agree, for I do not like to think that any one would thus trap a person (let alone that prince of men, Darcy!) but your assertations do have a r ng of truth about them. ] He will dance with her, no matter how much he dislikes it ., or she dislikes him. However, I can agree with this statement. We know, from the author's own information, that he is already attracted to her by this point. I always had the impression that he seems so stern and disapproving during the dance because he has stooped to do something (against his own better judgment) because of the attraction he feels for Elizabeth. But during the dance he does try to win her approval, but she rebuffs his attempts at small talk, even though she challenged him to talk. He is so clearly trying and she is so clearly already determined to be prejudiced against him. In a not short fashion, I am trying to say that I agree with the truth of your statement, but not with all of your assertations. I guess that my attraction to Darcy will not let me see him in such a cold-hearted role.:-)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (15:47)", "body": "I think you are forgetting that Lizzie avoided dancing with Darcy at the Lucas's. She also said she hoped to never dance with Darcy. She gets angry at herself for accepting. Didn't she wriggle her way out of the social implications at the Lucas's? I think a woman was able to refuse without looking bad. Remember, these people rarely used the word \"why?\"."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (17:02)", "body": "] a woman was able to refuse without looking bad. if she refused one man it was supposed to be because she didn't want to dance at all that evening, and she was then not supposed to dance with anyone else..."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (19:28)", "body": "' ANd like most men, he wants to control this woamn, and the relationship, if any.' Oh. I always feel like the odd one out when people discuss this scene. I do think it is tense and battle-like, particularly in the film. But I think it is Lizzie who is determined to make things difficult, who is uncompromising, can't resist doing anything to nettle him. I think she is flustered and not thinking straight, shooting off in all directions. In the book particularly, Darcy is surprisingly gallant, tries to find common ground numerous times, and despite being rattled eventually, is prepared to forg ve her afterwards."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (19:29)", "body": "' ANd like most men, he wants to control this woamn, and the relationship, if any.' Oh. I always feel like the odd one out when people discuss this scene. I do think it is tense and battle-like, particularly in the film. But I think it is Lizzie who is determined to make things difficult, who is uncompromising, can't resist doing anything to nettle him. I think she is flustered and not thinking straight, shooting off in all directions. In the book particularly, Darcy is surprisingly gallant, tries to find common ground numerous times, and despite being rattled eventually, is prepared to forg ve her afterwards."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (19:42)", "body": "That 'on foot' smile, Amy. I don't know why either, but I find it somewhat exciting too. Is it because he recognises even here that she doesn't 'perform to strangers' and is pleased despite knowing he should disapprove? Or maybe its an appreciation of the connection between physical/mental/sexual energy?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (19:48)", "body": "That 'on foot' smile, Amy. I don't know why either, but I find it somewhat exciting too. Is it because he recognises even here that she doesn't 'perform to strangers' and is pleased despite knowing he should disapprove? Or maybe its an appreciation of the connection between physical/mental/sexual energy? ___ Better ideas than I had about it, Hil. I like your explanation than the idea of liking that he is making fun of her."}, {"response": 13, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "[I always feel like the odd one out when people discuss this scene. I do think it is tense and battle-like, particularly in the film. But I think it is Lizzie who is determined to make things difficult.... Darcy is surprisingly gallant, tries to find common ground numerous times, and despite being rattled ventually, is prepared to forgive her afterwards.] Then that makes two of us, Hil. First of all, Darcy didn't take it lightly, asking her to dance. He hates it in general. But he wanted to do it with her , maybe even just as a way to be with her since it is difficult to talk to her. If you recall that at Lucas Lodge, he kinda of just followed Lizzy around, 'as a step' towards talking to her himself. That he asked her to dance and went quickly away, I take as consistent with him being uncomfortable. In the book we know that everyone in the room s looking at them with amazement when they take the dance floor, so it would be consistent with his discomfort for him to go through the steps of the dance stiffly in the film. He wasn't annoyed with her at the first part of the dance, and when she indicates that it is his turn to speak, 'He smiled, and assured her that whatever she wished hem to say should be said'. This indicates to me that he is attempting to match her banter. It is in this tone that \"It is no stiking resemblance to your character, I amd sure. How near it may be tjo mine I cannot pretend to say. You think it a faithful portrait undoubtedly\" comes out. (In the film, I do not see him rollin his eyes at her . He is speaking and looking ahead and then he turns in the dance.) I think here he is loosely alluding to their prior conversation when she accuses him of hating everybody and he says she misjudges them. I don't think that he is annoyed with her until toward the end of the dance. He makes and effort and tries to talk with her about books (after all the ragging she did on him about conversing during the dance), but then she rebuffs that and starts grilling him about his resentment. And regarding Darcy's being like most men, 'and like most men, he wants to control this woman, and the relationship'..... In his mind, who knows? But in practice, he just don't have the balls."}, {"response": 14, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (21:35)", "body": "Then that makes three of us, Hil and Sharon :)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (23:00)", "body": "Four. I think it is clear that by this point in the book Darcy is somewhat in love with her, or at least is strongly attracted to her, but he does not want to be . He resents her for attracting him, and for what she makes him feel. He is constantly torn between wanting to be near her, and wanting to have her out of his sight entirely. That is why the dance is such a perfect metaphor. During the dance the movements at times bring them close together and at others push them apart. It is exactly what is goi g on in Darcy's mind--he is being pulled towards her while he is trying to push away."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (10:42)", "body": "Don't forget the \"fine eyes\" comment that he makes BEFORE the Netherfield Ball....at Lucas Lodge...it is one of the first indications that his feelings are changing and that he begins to notice Lizzy. I think by the time the ball comes along...his feelings have begun to grow...her stay at Netherfield when she began to challenge him as he had never been challenged before, by standing up to him. When he asks her to dance...she has become very interesting to him, indeed....he is very attracted to her, eve though he may not want to admit it even to himself! Count me as #5"}, {"response": 17, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (14:08)", "body": "When Lizzy left Netherfield with Jane, Darcy might have said he was glad to see her then leave but deep inside he was hooked, his mind he wanted to control but his heart belong to her."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (14:23)", "body": "Oh, I'm glad I have company! But I'm worried by this: 'And regarding Darcy's being like most men, 'and like most men, he wants to control this woman, and the relationship'..... In his mind, who knows? But in practice, he just don't have the balls.' Does this imply that a 'real' man, one worth anything, will want to control a woman and relationship, like Carl said? What about a desire for equality? If a man desires that in a relationship, is he to be regarded as less of a man? I won't buy into that. Isn't it just perpetuating what we don't want? If male control, and female choice of this control, has a long genetic history, which I think is likely, wanting and working for equality in relationships requires heaps more balls than the 'Me Tarzan, you Ja e' approach."}, {"response": 19, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (14:28)", "body": "Right on Hil, society told me for a long time that was the way but guess I wised up and listened to what I wanted. Found a man who was also looking for equality and that's what I call a man, one who needs not to control and dominate to feel good about himself :)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (23:10)", "body": "{Does this imply that a 'real' man, one worth anything, will want to control a woman and relationship, like Carl said?} No, Carl said that 'like all men Darcy wants to control a woman'. There is nothing in Darcy's actions to indicate that he takes this attitude, although we can't ever really know what someone is thinking. But we do know by his actions that he is not agressive , so having such a belief (if he did) would not go very far in practice. (Our Lizzy would quash that like a bug) By his actions though, I think we can rest assured that Darcy does find an equal relationship appealing. And there probably are some people out there that ,I. would view Darcy 'less of a man' (in those times particularly) for allowing a woman equality and respect. But at the end of the day, Darcy shows he could not care less what those other think."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (23:27)", "body": "Sharon, I agree with you. I cannot take Carl's view of Darcy being a control freak; it's such a blasphemous thought. If he wanted to control his spouse, he would have married some litte mouse (something a lesser man would have done). Personally, I think the reason why some many of us love Darcy's character is because he wants Elizabeth because of her mind. He could have chosen any woman in England and he chose Lizzy. He knew going into the relationship that Lizzy was not the type of woman to be manipulated and IMHO that is one of many reasons why he chose Lizzy."}, {"response": 22, "author": "breezin", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (19:51)", "body": "Ladies, ladies, another aspect of this discussion needs to be pointed out also: Darcy's creator was Jane Austen, not John or Joe Austen. As a woman and a novelist, ergo , one might deduce her bent as being what a woman's idea(l) of a (gentle)man would be, rather than a man's. Moreover, her satiric spinster's mind (and I do not use the word spinster derogatorily, but as a woman of free spiritednes) would seem to corroborate our female views of the matter, rather than Carl's (though >Dieu sait that Carl's take on a male novelist's created idea(l) woman would doubtless be more accurate than mine!) I rest my case."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Cleo", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (17:19)", "body": "I thought Elizabeth was a tad bitter but I attributed it to the lingering effect of his slight, the intelligence she had recently acquired re: his \"character\" and her desire (in vain) to dance with Wickham. Remember, she had planned on being his partner. Regardless, the scene was a precursor to the fencing sceen in 4 or 5 (I forget)."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Genette", "date": "Sun, Apr  6, 1997 (13:54)", "body": "While I do think Lizzy was a bit unpleasant to Darcy at the Netherfield Ball, I am able to forgive her (much as Darcy did). She went to the ball with great hopes of a lovely romantic evening with Mr. Wickham - had prepared her appearance carefully in anticipation, etc. And what a night! First, Wickham is not there - Darcy's fault to her way of thinking. Second, she has to dance with Mr. Collins - and sees Darcy notice her embarassing partner's lack of grace. By the time Darcy asks her to dance she's n a foul mood with him, indeed. (Besides, he comes up to ask while she's in the midst of a recital of his \"evil\" toward Wickham. Ever notice the appalling timing of all of Darcy's approaches to her as immediately following her having ill thoughts of him fresh in mind?) Then she feels self-conscious as people pay attention to the fact that they are dancing together and gets worried about what those people see, so starts conversation. In the book it says that at the end of their dance \"in Darcy's breast there was a tolerable powerful feeling towards her, which soon procured her pardon, and directed all his anger against another.\" In P&P2 I see much physical/sexual tension between D&E. Both are attracted to the other against their wishes - indeed, against their better judgement! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 194, "subject": "Who Else to Play Darcy?", "response_count": 36, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mpk", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (21:41)", "body": "I love this crazy group and I am so happy that I found you all just about three months ago...I get such a kick just \"listening\" to everyone and putting in my 2 cents in occasionally...LOL and loving it!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (22:01)", "body": "Hey, Carolyn! Where could we cast Crazy Louie and Beaker?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (23:36)", "body": "Not to change the subject, but ... has anyone seen Wishbone's Darcy? He does a great job in the dancing scene!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (23:37)", "body": "Back to Beaker - I think he'd look dashing in his regimentals. Pick an officer, any officer"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (00:00)", "body": "I always liked Digit! He could be Sir William."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (11:38)", "body": "How about the actor who plays Mr. Elton in the A&E version of EMMA? He looked like a fleshier CF in some scenes!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "SYLVIA", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (14:24)", "body": "WHAT ABOUT RALPH FIENNES FOR DARCY? i BELIEVE HE CAN SMOLDER!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (15:50)", "body": "Wishbone P&P : what about this old and chubby Lizzy! Taped it for my daughter though ;)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (20:15)", "body": "Yeah, just think how smolder-y Wishbone could have been with the proper leading lady!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "And costume wise they could at least be in the right decade not 20 years later"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (22:02)", "body": "But you must admit, Johanne, Wishbone makes a very fair Darcy indeed!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "Very dashing, more than just a hound dog"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (23:07)", "body": "Amy2, I noticed that too! At times, from certain angles, Mr. Elton certainly looked like our Darcy. I just thought it was the obsession poking its little head up."}, {"response": 14, "author": "breezin", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (06:39)", "body": "...At times, from certain angles, Mr. Elton certainly looked like our Darcy. I just thought it was the obsession poking its little head up. ROTFLOL Missed this A&E version, but that comment does sound punny and disparaging of the actor's lack of dagginess, compared to CF! (Cheryl? Agreed?)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (06:44)", "body": "MUPPETS AT PEMBERLEY at the updated cast list OK, CF and JE as D & E, of course. Miss Piggy...Caroline Kermit.......Bingley Fozzy........Sir William Gonzo........Mr. Collins Rizzo........Wickham Oscar ......Mr. Hurst Animal......Mr. BennetOscar could also be Mr Hurst and one of Gonzo's girlfriend Camillia chicken...Mrs Hurst Grove....... Mr. Gardiner. Charlotte....Fishlips (Girl singer for Dr. Teeth) Mr. Hurst....Lance Links (the Captain in Pigs in Space) Lady Catherine...Waldorf or Astoria (the one without the mustache) Crazy Louie......Regimental Demolitions officer (I hope I am not confusing Louie with another muppet)) Beaker.......Capt. Carter Bunson.......Capt. Saunderson Musicians: Meryton Assembly Band...Dr. Teeth with Animal on Drums Netherfield Ball Band...The penguin orchestra Food: Prepared by the Svedish Chef Singing vegetables and fruits Talking Cheeses Bandito Lobsters (I always liked Digit! He could be Sir William.) I must confess that I cannot remember which muppet is Digit (and here I thought I knew the muppets). But the part of Capt. Denny is still up for grabs, would Digit fit? PS--I like the Wishbone version of P&P, especially Caroline and her wild gestures."}, {"response": 16, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (07:11)", "body": "I thought that it was Crazy Harry, or Larry, rather than Louie as the dynamite king. I, too , can't recall a Digit. Also, doesn't Fishlips have the name Janice?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (07:14)", "body": "speaking of the band members, since we're casting in dual roles, what about Floyd as Denny?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (07:52)", "body": "Re Mr. Elton's resemblance to Darcy: has anyone noticed that the man on the cover of the Emma3 video is Mr. Elton , not Mr. Knightley?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (10:38)", "body": "Digit was a character on the short-lived Muppets show a few years back which took place at a TV station. Digit repaired the equiptment. He was pale with wires coming out of his head and he never spoke."}, {"response": 20, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (19:43)", "body": "thanks for clearing that up for me (I still don't remember him) what about the boomerang fish guy as someone? Anne3, I couldn't figure that one either"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (20:44)", "body": "What about Sam the Eagle as Darcy? Or perhaps Mr. Bennet? Gonzo and Camilla as Mr. and Mrs. Hurst, or actually Lydia and Wickham? Personally, I think Beaker would make a mean Bingly-he always gets tromped on!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (21:41)", "body": "or Kermit and Piggy as Mr/Mrs Bennet but, no, I like Piggy as Caroline - the possibilities for jealousy (v. EB) within the role as well as Piggy's always conniving to try for the lead (v. JE) are too good - we should be excessively diverted!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "Piggy's ahhhhrrrRRRRAAAAHHH with full swing"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (23:35)", "body": "Johanne and Caroline, which is the Wishbone P&P? It isn't P&P0 or P&P1 so I'm lost."}, {"response": 25, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (23:54)", "body": "P&P0 is with Olivier (40's) P&P1 with Rintoul (ugh!) (85ish) P&P2 we love think it could be P&PW"}, {"response": 26, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (00:24)", "body": "P&P1 must be earlier than '85. I first saw it in 1982, and that was on video at school"}, {"response": 27, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (00:38)", "body": "various dates have been reported for this one, some up to 1990 by my video store (I couldn't believe it either)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (16:43)", "body": "P&P1 was made in 1979, first shown in the US in 1985; we colonials had seen it much earlier. It was 'the rest of the world''s objection to the use of P&P 1985 (and P&P 1996 since it was shown in the UK in 1995) which led to the use of numbers instead of years."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (18:00)", "body": "I saw P&P0 on PBS not too long ago. Or I should say part of it. It was pretty silly-the Lydia and Kitty characters were stupid (more so than usual!). It didn't seem as serious an adaptation to me!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (19:53)", "body": "P&P1 was shown in the U.S. much earlier than 1985. I remember discussing it with friends in 1981, and we were recalling a PBS telecast that had occurred some time earlier, perhaps in 1980."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Ann", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (20:00)", "body": "The Wishbone \"Furst Impressions\" is numbered either P&P3 (half in joke) or P&PW."}, {"response": 32, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (20:23)", "body": "Anne3 -- I concur re the earlier showing of P&P1 (at least on some PBS) stations. I saw it in 1979 or 1980 when I lived in the Boston area. I remember wishing that I had a VCR so that I could have taped it -- I found it quite wonderful at the time, though it pales in comparison to P&P2 (and what doesn't?!). I do wonder when/if another adaptation gets made -- do you think there could be a P&P3 Support Group formed about 20 years from now? :-)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (01:52)", "body": "Very much depends on which 10 year old aspiring actor gets to play Darcy in 20 years time, I would think..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:05)", "body": "Very much depends on which 10 year old aspiring actor gets to play Darcy in 20 years time, I would think... This has been bouncing around in my head for a couple of weeks now, what with my having a 10-year-old son. He and his friends are in such an incredibly goofy, silly, early-potty-mouth/bathroom-humor stage! I know they're going to go through major life-altering changes in the next 10, but it got me wondering... Do you think our CF was ever a 10-year-old boy?! Horrors!"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:27)", "body": "According to his own interview accounts, as a child he was scruffy, cocky, precocious, and TROUBLE!!;-)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (13:26)", "body": "Why does this not surprise me :) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 195, "subject": "Favorite music  - we love to hear", "response_count": 49, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (00:12)", "body": "I'm to young to be a flower child of the sixties (but always wanted to be one) so as an 70/80's/90's one, my favorite urbane folk singer is none other than Billy Bragg. You may like him for his politics or his song writing, none-the-less he's a brilliant lyricist and a very funny guy. Every show I've seen I've enjoyed - his music, his lyrics and his humour and down-to-earth realism :) \"Harsh words between bride and groom the distance is greater each day he smokes alone in the next room and she knits her life away\" \"You know why girls get their belly-buttons pierced, don't you? Because they can't grow goatees.\" Thoroughly entertaining and intelligent, Bragg is a breath of fresh air in a grunge world of shallow, substanceless music. - Karen Pace's review of Billy Bragg at The Horeseshoe, Toronto. September 22 1996."}, {"response": 2, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (00:27)", "body": "Yes yes love Billy Bragg. I like the way he sings in his own accent, not in American like many non-American singers. I like his interesting lyrics, and his political opinioins and the way he's not reluctant to be critical of the establishment and his understanding of the relationships between people and... One of my favourites is \"Valentines Day is over\""}, {"response": 3, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (00:35)", "body": "So let's indulge in this and pray others to bare with us this passion : Valentine's Day Is Over Some day boy you'll reap what you've down You'll catch a cold and you'll be on your own And you will see that what's wrong with me Is wrong with everyone that You want to play your little games on Poetry and flowers pretty words and threats You've gone to the dogs again and I'm not placing bets On you coming home tonight anything but blind If you take me for granted then you must expect to find Surprise, surprise Valentine's Day is over, it's over Valentine's Day is over If you want to talk about it well you know where the phone is Don't come round reminding me again how brittle bone is God didn't make you angel the Devil made you a man That brutality and the economy are related now I understand When will you realize that as above so below there is no love For the girl with hour glass figure Time runs out very fast We used to want the same things But that's all in the past And lately it seems that as it all gets tougher Your ideal of justice just becomes rougher and rougher Thank you for the things you bought me thank you for the card Thank you for the things you taught me when you hit me hard That love between two people must be based on understanding Until that's true you'll find your things All stacked out on the landing surprise, surprise And this is the classic one of all and one of many favorites : Waiting For the Great Leap Forwards It may have been Camelot for Jack and Jacqueline But on the Che Guevara highway filling up with gasoline Fidel Castro's brother spies a rich lady who's crying Over luxury's disappointment So he walks over and he's trying To sympathize with her but thinks that he should warn her That the Third World is just around the corner In the Soviet Union a scientist is blinded By the resumption of nuclear testing and he is reminded That Dr Robert Oppenheimer's optimism fell At the first hurdle In the Cheese Pavilion and the only noise I hear Is the sound of people stacking chairs And mopping up spilt beer And someone asking questions and basking in the light Of the fifteen fame filled minutes of the fanzine writer Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses While looking down the corridor Out to where the van is waiting I'm looking for the Great Leap Forwards Jumble sales are organized and pamphlets have been posted Even after closing time there's still parties to be hosted You can be active with the activists Or sleep in with the sleepers While you're waiting for the Great Leap Forwards One leap forwards, two leaps back Will politics get me the sack? Here comes the future and you can't run from it If you've got a blacklist I want to be on it It's a mighty long way down rock 'n roll From Top of the Pops to drawing the dole If no one seems to understands Start your own revolution, cut out the middleman In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune But this is reality so give me some room So join the struggle while you may The Revolution is just a t-shirt away"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (01:09)", "body": "How 'bout Sexuality ? ;) My personal favorites: The Beatles, The Cure, Pet Shop Boys, Bryan Ferry/Roxy Music, Duran Duran, The Cardigans, Level 42, Dave Matthews Band, INXS, Bing, Glenn Miller, Patti Page, Mozart, The Russian Romantics, anything Baroque, Franz Lehar (The Merry Widow)....the list goes on and on...I'm very fond of several alternative flashes in the pan, which I probably shouldn't even mention...;)"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (01:10)", "body": "Oh...and I love EVITA! Great music..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (05:55)", "body": "Great topic idea, Johanne. The Bragg lyrics you posted: \"Harsh words between bride and groom the distance is greater each day he smokes alone in the next room and she knits her life away\" Reminded me very much of a Paul Simon song, The Dangling Conversation: And you read your Emiily Dickenson And I my Robert Frost And we note our place with bookmarkers That measure what we've lost"}, {"response": 7, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (08:12)", "body": "OK my favourites other than Billy Bragg are Annie Lenox (and the Eurythmics) Enya, Indigo Girls, Suzanne Vega For the Australians out there Paul Kelly, Deborah Conway (It's only the beginning - one of the best love songs ever), Midnight Oil, Tiddas (excellent aboriginal women's group - those harmonies!!) And Wolfgang Amadeus of course (the clarinet concerto - music of the gods)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "I like music from the '60's--British invasion, beach, folk, soul, and being from the Detroit area--MOTOWN Every year I catch the Temps and the Tops concert--Levi Stubbs can still belt out a song. Also catch Peter, Paul & Mary every year. Below is a song Paul Stookey wrote about the internet. VIRTUAL PARTY (see_you@party.net) (Noel Paul Stookey) copyright/neworld media music 1995 It's 11 o'clock in the evening - I'm barefoot - And I'm logged-on to the INTERNET. I usually pickup my e-mail in the afternoon But on weekends sometimes I forget... I yell down the hall to the bedroom, \"Honey, I'll be right there...\" she says \"that's ok, dear, I got a brand new book here and I'm not going anywhere\". A 'funny thing about a couple when a couple of years've gone by. You don't talk; you think you know each other so well you don't have to try... you take for granted what you used to called enchanted just a while ago... when does a mystery turn into history? I don't know... Anyway, I got another MEG of data coming down the line; wall street profile...spreadsheet from a friend of mine... when up on the screen pops a little green box that says 'click on me'. Somewhere I swear Alice in Wonderland's callin'... I look at the clock (not as late as I thought: maybe quarter to one). 'Download's finished, I could take five minutes and have me some fun. The invitation's from a web location in Hong Kong. Already started, this virtual party runs all night long! All night? You're invited to a virtual party tonight... You're invited to a virtual party tonight... (instrumental break) Computers in the automobile, computers in the microwave, computers in the phone. And even my wife who used to tell me to 'get a life' has got a computer of her own. I spend so much time saving time I can't find any time to spend ... I've taped sixteen episodes of \"Star Trek\" but when am I gonna show them?! Un-believable, must be sixty, seventy people at the party site. Icons, Avatars, Images of Movie Stars surfing tonight... I'm looking for a chat when I get a note that says 'ya wanna go...to a place real private? I guarantee you'll like it...' I say 'I...yi...' She says her name is 'Mata Hari' and that she's particularly fond of older men... Maybe so, maybe not, maybe she's a guy who's got this urge to pretend... And then it occurs to me, I don't need this fantasy... after all, everything I'd be looking for, I've got and even more, sleeping at the end of the hall... I shut down the box, still it's two o'clock by the time I get to bed... I lift up the covers; snuggle next to my lover; find a note there instead... it says \"the book was dumb, logged on, found a message from Hong Kong... about a virtual party (think I'll go as 'mata hari') may be all night long...\" I say all night? You're invited to a virtual party tonight... You're invited to a virtual party tonight... Going to a virtual party tonight... (ready or not here comes the 21st century) Going to a virtual party tonight..."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (13:37)", "body": "Carolyn! I want to hear that song. Thank you. It not only ties into the relationshit(p) ennui we were talking about but speaks to this other obsession of ours. I love it."}, {"response": 10, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "That does sound like a cool song. Where can we hear it?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (14:27)", "body": "Like the Billy Bragg and Paul Stookey! Always felt I should get to hear more Billy Bragg. Amy, do we share a liking of Paul Simon as well as Van Morrison?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "I guess so, Hil. Not surprised...."}, {"response": 13, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (15:54)", "body": "FAvorites: Classical: Rachmanioff(especially piano concerto no. 2), Mozart, Debussy, Chopin..I love opera too-Puccini, Verdi, Bizet....Placido Domingo rules! And KAli-ditto on Lehar(love the Merry Widow) and Die Fleidermas too. And INXS & Duran Duran-Sigh( I fell in love with Simon Le bon after seeing the reflex video)Also, Love Bing and Miller-love big band music. As well: Gershwin, Cole Porter, Andrew Lloyd Webber(ESpecially Sunset Boulevard), Garland, Billie Holliday(I wish I sounded like her), Ella Fitzgerald, Sinatra, the Beatles, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Edith Piaf..... Anyone like Take that? My sister got me into them-great for exercising. Like oasis too. In the past, Corey hart-still have my sunglasses at night."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (16:24)", "body": "Virtual Party is on the Lifelines Live album/cd (whatever)."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (20:00)", "body": "I love the pop/Broadway immortals of the 20s, 30s & 40s: Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Kern, Rodgers. Nobody writes like that any more. Anyone else love the Weavers, the great folk group of the 50s and 60s?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (20:56)", "body": "ditto on the Mozart, PP&M, Paul Simon, and add James Taylor, Fogelberg, Spyrogyra, esp. baroque brass, Grogorian chant stuff, Taco Bell's Canon, the Nat/Nat. Cole duets, Take6, Linda Ronstadt,..."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (22:44)", "body": "Folk music.English/scots/Irish/Welsh/Breton/CapeBreton/Cajun/Acadian/Australian and Pacific.Toomany individual artists to list but what is in my car rightnow is Enya, Loreeta McKennit, Gordon Lightfoot, The Barra McNeils, Dan Gibson Stuff, Queen (YES! Queen) Bryan Adams. At home on the CD- Bach, Beethoven, Handel, Opera selections, Holst, Gregorian chants, Billy Joel"}, {"response": 18, "author": "candace", "date": "Thu, Feb 20, 1997 (23:12)", "body": "OK -- over at \"drooling\" I posted a different list, but this one will start with the same person --- Jackson Browne!!!! My other favorites are: The Roches, Kate & Anna McGaragle, Maria Muldaur, Emmylou Harris, my P&P & S&S CD's, and of course I couldn't possibly leave out the best dance band in the greater Sacramento area, Red Rose (my husband's band)."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (00:56)", "body": "Jackson Browne....."}, {"response": 20, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (11:16)", "body": "Amy he beats women"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (14:21)", "body": "One of my favourite CDs right now is Wrecking Ball, by Emmy Lou Harris. Its different from her real country stuff. Another perenial is A Meeting by the River by Ry Cooder and V.M.Bhatt. Its an instrumental meeting of west and east. The Paul Stookey reminds me (in topic only) of the dreadful 'Pina Colada' song."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (14:50)", "body": "Taco Bell's Canon? ROTFLOL!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (15:17)", "body": "]Taco Bell's Canon? I knew Pachelbel had been overcommercialised, but I didn't realise it had gone that far...."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (15:25)", "body": "Amy he beats women __ Impossible. Really Laura. I am flabbergasted."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (22:01)", "body": "Van Morrison How could we have forgotten him over in the Voices drool? Fogelberg \"Once Upon A Time\" is an out-of-character rocker -- excellent! Ry Cooder \"I'll Be There (If You Ever Want Me)\" -- 'nuff said. Amy he beats women __ Impossible. Really Laura. I am flabbergasted. Yep, just ask Darryl Hannah. I love ZZ Top -- anything they do. Sometimes I need that driving rhythm like any addict needs a fix. I think you guys know what I mean, right?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (00:15)", "body": "And of course THE GREATFUL DEAD!!!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (00:18)", "body": "OK -- What did I do wrong? Where's my picture?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "Another try..."}, {"response": 29, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (00:23)", "body": "Rats!!!!!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (00:26)", "body": "Ok Amy -- now I've read the fine print on your tutorial -- One more try for Jerry... And of course THE GREATFUL DEAD!!!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (00:27)", "body": "Well I am exceedingly proud of myself!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (00:57)", "body": "I'll put out a press release."}, {"response": 33, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (14:33)", "body": "Kali, HELP I am such a simpleton. I am ever so slowly catching on, but ROTFlol??? I feel sooooo stupid help"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (16:04)", "body": "Cindy, you are not stupid, just learning a new lnguage. Roll On Floor Laughing Out Loud! Took me a while too, and I was too proud to ask."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (02:39)", "body": "I finally broke down and asked one day...the worst thing they did was LOL me! ;) Some others: LOL = Laugh Out Loud ROTFLOLAN = Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud and Attaining Nose (when you're drinking something and you snort at just the wrong moment...) IMHO, IMO = In My Humble Opinion, In My Opinion (I just figured this out in the last few weeks...!)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (08:24)", "body": "Oh, I had assumed it was Honest. which, of course, leads to a problem distinguishing between the opinion and the honest opinion. immediately after I asked, I thought I had it figured (wrongly, I suppose) to be Right On, Too Funny, LOL but, indeed, I prefer rolling on the floor to my brilliant presumption thanks, everybody for all the help"}, {"response": 37, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (08:27)", "body": "Hey, the time stamp on that last one was right!!! I used to get a 26 minute delay (the Magic 30 Minutes? - nah) even as recently as last night! Does that mean I'm official now?"}, {"response": 38, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (13:11)", "body": "Cindy: I used to get a 26 minute delay (the Magic 30 Minutes? - nah) Ahh, Cindy, we each of us wish for the Magic 30 Minutes, from time to time (I want it all to myself, of course, but the rest of you may share your times!);-)"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (19:15)", "body": "Cindy, I have started a new topic,#199. So you can help the others out!;-D"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (04:31)", "body": "I forgot Debussey...Claire de Lune..."}, {"response": 41, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (11:31)", "body": "Debussy's Claire de Lune, love it, any \ufffdrik Satie fans out there?"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:06)", "body": "Oh Johanne, love to play the Gymnopedies and Gnoissiennes on the piano, some of my favorites!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:37)", "body": "Check this Cheryl : Samples of Satie using MP3 or Midifiles: http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/samples.html"}, {"response": 44, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:38)", "body": "Always pictures Satie with looking at an endless meadows of wildflowers or on a rainy day"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (13:00)", "body": "Thanks ever so much for Satie link Johanne...I simply love his music!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "I just got the cd of Wynton Marsalis' \"In Gabriel's Garden\" - some really great trumpet playing and it starts with one of my favorites, the music for \"Masterpiece Theatre\" by Mouret, followed by Purcell's Trumpet Voluntary! This music even replaced P&P for one day in the car, but not for longer!!"}, {"response": 47, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:37)", "body": "This is somewhat mundane, but I really love Rachmaninoff."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (04:30)", "body": "Gymnopedies! I love it! One of the girls in our house used to play that piece on our grand piano (vintage 1927 Steinway...this house was very West Egg in a Mediterranean sort of way) late at night...it was a wonderful thing to listen to while you looked out across the deck at the lights of Ess Eff across the Bay..."}, {"response": 49, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (11:20)", "body": "I just bought Nozze di Figaro, and also a really interesting collection of early music called encounters with early music - lots of plainsong and recorders and lutes. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 198, "subject": "P&P Music Revisited", "response_count": 32, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (09:24)", "body": "Such a timely topic as I am listeneing to my P&P CD right now. I love it just so much."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (09:41)", "body": "You get to listen to your own tunes at work, Roar? Nice job indeed!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (11:13)", "body": "I'm soooo lucky. I listen to all my classical CD's at work. I brought in my own player as the CD on the PC crashes my system. I love to listen to P&P especially when I type because I type to the music. It this flow thing, plus I have always typed very fast. I was clocked at 90 wpm once. Never achieved that again. I always wondered my errors were. They didn't even check. Well to get back to music. I love my P&P CD that sometimes I listen to it all day. Well about to put in the NEW WORLD SYMPHONY another big favorites of mine. You just have to love the passion in DVORAK. OOH just like Austen all that PASSION!!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (14:36)", "body": "Thanks Amy for posting that very long and interesting bit from Austen -L. As I said in Help I nearly fell out of my seat when Cherubino started singing LIZZY'S song - it was nice to hear the whole thing. BTW, I found a wav-file of the WHOLE of the Mr Beveridge's Maggot at the FoF site. I wish I could do those links... I will be brave, post this and try and work out how to do it."}, {"response": 5, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (14:51)", "body": "I don't think this is a link, but at least it's an address... http://www.ualberta.ca/~marilyn/wav.html"}, {"response": 6, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (19:33)", "body": "Kate, the link worked all the way through! Well done, indeed. However, I figured that I was going to have to wait until the byte-head of the family, my dearest hubby, got home in order to play it, since nothing happened. Then, out of the blue, as I'm browsing other topics, Darcy tells me how much he admires and loves me. This random play feature - maybe I like it better this way!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "This thread is very timely for me...I just purchased my Carl Davis CD a week ago...I may have to buy another....I am near to wearing it out already! My whole family loves it...everyone says...it is so soothing! I must agree with Dougs assessment of not appreciating Mr. Davis' contribution to P&P until I listened to the soundtrack and could feel the personalities of those involved in each scene each piece was written for....delightful music!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "lindal", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (20:08)", "body": "Laura--me too. I love the P&P CD. And Dvorak!! Have you ever listened to any of Mozart's quintettes? I listen to them as I read the posts here. They're very reminiscent of the music in P&P2."}, {"response": 9, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (02:37)", "body": "Cindy: This random play feature - maybe I like it better this way! Not really random play - it just took that long for the sound file to download to your browser so it could play it. But I was astonished at how quickly the Maggot played! It began almost instantly and went on at great length! Must be something about the .midi format. Mac people, the site purports to divide the sound files into PC and Mac, however, though there are only 2 entries listed in the Mac section, any of the files in the PC section that were created as Windows.wav files will play in your netscape browser if you have the Live Audio plug-in installed. (It comes with Netsacpe 3.0) (And the PC section is where the Maggot is to be found.)"}, {"response": 10, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (22:23)", "body": "Just a reminder of how the P&P2 obsession passes through the generations: My 10-year-old son, who spent last evening watching StarWars in preparation to see Empire at a birthday today, was wrapping his friend's gift (some StarWars toy or other) this morning humming to himself as he did so NOT the Williams soundtrack music, but some of the Davis incidental scene music. I love this boy!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:43)", "body": "Cindy...I too have had a similar experience....my 15 year old daughter who rolls her eyes every time she walks into the room seeing P&P on the telly...said \"Play that again mom! It is very soothing...I like it...and yes, I know it is from your Pride & Prejudice...but I still like it!\" I saw a tiny breakthru....she still gives me hope she will discover the beauty of P&P...or at least of Darcy!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (18:49)", "body": "I just got my CD today! I just got my CD today! ...and the clerk says, \"So, is it any good?!\""}, {"response": 13, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (10:14)", "body": "and did you tell the clerk that this CD should have won all the grammies."}, {"response": 14, "author": "publish", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "I have not been able to get a copy of the CD of P&P yet. I am going to special order for \"The Wall\". They have it listed but not on hand! Can't wait to get it!!!!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:36)", "body": "obviously, the clerk was not worthy"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (21:17)", "body": "I got my copy today! Worth the money!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "TENNSEP", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:36)", "body": "My copy of P&P is on backorder, hope to get it next week. I did happen to purchase the CD called THE JANE AUSTIN COMPANION at Tower Records. It's a mix of various classical artists popular during her time. It's SSOOOO wonderful!!! I highly encourage you to buy it. Nimbus Records puts it out."}, {"response": 18, "author": "publish", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (16:03)", "body": "Well I got my copy of the P&P soundtrack and it is better than I thought it would be. You can actually picture the screens when the music plays. I also got my copy of the book The Making of P&P. I would highly recommend it. The pictures are great, especially the pictures of all the cast as they really are."}, {"response": 19, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (21:41)", "body": "I've looked at my local record store but they don't have it. Is there a place on the internet where I could buy it from?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (21:56)", "body": "Lisa, try the merchandise section of Firth FAQ, which is linked from our FAQ. I am pretty sure she has an address there for All the Best CDs. Or try, I'm pretty sure it is: www.abcds.com"}, {"response": 21, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (13:09)", "body": "That's where I got mine..."}, {"response": 22, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "Thanks for the help Amy. I just put in my order with ABCD's and hope to receive it soon."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:42)", "body": "I had a question in email. Can anybody help Ann Marie? _____ Hi Amy, I was wondering if you could help me. I'm trying to find out the names of all the fortepiano pieces in the P&P2 series. I did find a listing on the Colin Firth FAQ, and I found Doug Short's post on AUSTEN-L (Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996/Subject: The Music of P&P2) to be quite informative. Unfortunately, both of those sources do not mention the one piece of music I am particularly interested in. It is the piece Georgiana plays at Pemberley after Elizabeth has left for Longbourne. (It's the scene where Caroline Bingley tells Mr. Darcy she hopes he is not pining for the loss of Miss Eliza Bennet. Then Mr. Darcy says, \"What--excuse me,\" and leaves the room.) This scene has been omitted from the A&E broadcast, so I think a lot of people haven't even seen it. Do you happen to know the name of that particular piece, or where I might find that information. Thanks in advance for your help. Ann Marie"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (20:30)", "body": "Isn't it one of the theme songs of the show and therefore written specifically for P&P2? I don't pay much attention to the music so I'm not sure, but it sounds like the love theme to me (going by memory here)."}, {"response": 25, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:24)", "body": "No - it is something from the period - I do remember someone on the old BBS identifying it, but can't remember what it was. :-("}, {"response": 26, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:28)", "body": "I agree with joan, but am equally at loss on the name. Would not a search in our archives do the trick?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "sandysearing", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (13:27)", "body": "As a musician, I find that my opinion of a movie is greatly influenced by the quality of the soundtrack. Over the past 15 years, the trend seems to be to use period music whenever possible, and even when the music is newly composed, to bring a feeling of authenticity to the composition. There is a very classical feeling to the music of P&P2, which, to me, just heightens the overall quality of the film. A&E does an excellent job with their music in general; much better than BBC. The music for Jane Eyre and P&P is pretty dismal. A lot of it, especially the music for JE, sounds like bad Stravinsky. Too much oboe - just doesn't fit the story."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Donna", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (14:34)", "body": "I agree,the music in the BBC versions of Jane Eyre and P&P were very dismal.That is why I didn't like that version of Jane Eyre.Just couldn't get into. Music is a driving force behind any movie. William Hurt might not have been the best choice, but everything else was great. I think I'll watch it again."}, {"response": 29, "author": "sandysearing", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (16:42)", "body": "The best part(musically) of P&P2 was seeing musicians actually playing period instruments. How many people have even seen or heard of a serpent, let alone seen and heard it actually played? That was just great. The music for Emma3 was good although not in the same league."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (17:15)", "body": "I have neither seen a serpent nor heard of one, Sandy. What is it?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "I believe it's the curvy thing shown off in the orchestra for the Netherfield ball. If memory serves, it's a woodwind instrument played with a brass-type mouthpiece. ?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "sandysearing", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (20:35)", "body": "You've got it, Cindy. It uses woodwind fingerings with a brass mouthpiece and sounds like a cross between a trombone, a bassoon, and a foghorn. There are probably only a handful of musicians around today who can play the thing. And he did it quite well. Actually, I think David Munroe and his early music group started the whole movement towards musical authenticity. His group, the Early Music Consort of London provided the soundtrack for the Henry VIII and Elizabeth R series back in the 70s. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 199, "subject": "Glossary/Dictionary", "response_count": 17, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (22:06)", "body": "BTW=By The Way LOL=Laughing Out Loud ROTFLOL=Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud IMO=In My Opinion IMHO=In My Humble Opinion"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Feb 23, 1997 (22:33)", "body": "Good idea, Caroline. I like Kali's innovation to ROTFLOL: ROTFLOLAN = Rolling on the floor laughing out loud, attaining nose (beverage is expelled via that cavity in the act of laughing)"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Mari", "date": "Mon, Feb 24, 1997 (11:55)", "body": "Carloine, I lifted this explanation from our archives for our new friends; Topic 33 of 200 [austen]: incredibly dumb and stupid questions (for newbies) Response 59 of 74: Mari Topitzes (Mari) * Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (11:03) * 7 lines Susan; here it is. There came into being a topic of discussion, which began with a discussion about clothes, where someone noted that Mr. Firth appeared to vary on whether he \ufffddressed\ufffd left or right.. if you know what I mean. The person had discussed the topic with her husband, who thought that most men always dressed to one side, rather than alternating. There was some discussion of compiling a list of which side Mr. Darcy was dressed to in certain scenes; similar to a list of which dresses Lizzy wore in each scene, but this was never compiled (or, at any rate, never published ;-)\ufffd. ) It was one of our Australian cousins who introduced the term daggy to us, and it was unanimously moved that the topic be thus named. This, madam, is a faithful narrative of all my dealings with the daggy topic. For the truth of this account, you may inquire of Cheryl Sneed, who is familiar with the entire history of all daggy and snogging activities."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:38)", "body": "Mari....LOL....great job doing a difficult explanation..... Thank you to all who have contributed....now I don't have to feel like a newbie when I have to ask \"What does that mean?\"...I can come here and be discreet!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (16:24)", "body": "I have a question. I think it's for SusanC, but I'm not sure. What does ITA mean??"}, {"response": 6, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (18:47)", "body": "I Totally Agree? Just one more thing I'd like to know re: \"Daggy\" - Now, are we talking about an adverb which describes how we are when we sink (rise?) to discussing how he's \"dressed\", OR an adjective which describes his special characteristic?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:51)", "body": "Cindy, I have always assumed it to be an adjective. \"Daggily\" I think has been used as an adverb, but I am not sure."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:56)", "body": "#5 Yes, Inko, ITA means I totally agree. I saw it on another board and assumed it was a common usage -- didn't meant to appear elitist, if that's how it seemed."}, {"response": 9, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:16)", "body": "okay, so adj. describing our ramblings, or adj. describing you-know"}, {"response": 10, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (23:01)", "body": "OK, I've been meaning for a week to post something about DAGGY. My etymology of daggy is a bit different to the one you've been using here. I know what the REAL meaning is (not really mentionable - has to do with sheep) , but its used by me and my Aust. friends and family to mean someone/something which is slight scruffy, unfashionable and yet lovable. DAG is used to describe a person, meaning that they are slightly eccentric, odd, perhaps unfashionable or scruffy but loveable all the same. It's kind of an affectionate way of telling someone they're a bit strange. I've never heard it in a context where it has any sexual overtones at all.... but I'm sure it is used differently by different people. I was quite startled to come across it here used in this way - but it's kind of growing on me..."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (23:23)", "body": "Maybe you could bring the new definition back to Australia when you return."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (23:50)", "body": "Ok, for those seeking reliable info about how daggy as we use it came about, I refer you to the old P&P2 BB Archives, linked on the front page. HC has ingeneously arranged the posts by number and alphabetically, so simply scroll down to the D's and you shall find the whole story, from the horses mouth! ;-)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "re 10: Kate, Hilary originally used 'daggy' pretty much as you would. However she applied it to Darcy, esp in the wedding scene, and thus it developed new overtones..."}, {"response": 14, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:36)", "body": "]she applied it to Darcy, esp in the wedding scene, and thus it developed new overtones... Thus are new words created. Isn't English a wonderful language?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:53)", "body": "It sure is Kate! I expect full credit in the next dictionary!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "candace", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (23:05)", "body": "It seems that as the topic started out on the subject of Daggy but deteriorated greatly to uh, you know, we originally used the term \"Daggy Thread\" whenever we would refer to this subject -- From there we then seemed to have just shorted it to Daggy."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (16:03)", "body": "\"daggy thread\" was a topic title, way way back when this was first discussed. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 2, "subject": "introduce yourself, Austen person", "response_count": 44, "posts": [{"response": 2, "author": "Stefanie", "date": "Thu, Nov 21, 1996 (23:30)", "body": "As most of you already know from Amy's other board, my name is Stefanie and I spend most of my time in Syracuse, NY where I attend SYracuse University. I can't wait for the strings to get going here like they used to on the other board. I miss you all v ery dearly. -Stefanie"}, {"response": 2, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Nov 21, 1996 (23:43)", "body": "I'm The Mysterious H.C. ;-)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Nov 21, 1996 (23:43)", "body": ""}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (00:09)", "body": "Jumbo jpeg!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (00:20)", "body": "Hi Guys, I just found this while waiting for the last Friday afternoon crisis to hit my desk - the P&P2 addicts club is a real moving target this week! I am as stated previously a 39 year old Austen fan and some-time surgical pathologist from Newcastle Australia. I hope catch up properly tommorow. In the meantime, thanks to Spring for their hospitality, to Alcicia for emergency services and to Amy for general sheperding, organising and other patroness stuff. Anna"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (02:17)", "body": "I see Stefanie finally got through. As did Henry. Just look for the giant revolving Hippopotamus, as Johnny Carson would say... Janet? Rebecca? You guys still having problems? If I miss any of you at the chat room, please e-mail me at dxiechkn@uclink.berkeley.edu ! - K"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (02:40)", "body": "Well, this will take some getting used to, old dog, new tricks and all that. I am not yet eight and thirty, I am a piano teacher and church music director and in my spare time, I collect volunteers to help with the management of wherever we wind up for the P&P2 BB. If you haven't yet volunteered e-mail me at clsneed@ix.netcom.com Keep those cards and letters coming in!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (03:56)", "body": "Well, let's try this again... for some reason only the first line of this got posted on my first attempt. Does this form, perhaps require hard returns? Although the two other Joans who were with us earlier appear to have fallen by the wayside,I have decided to remain Joan, too becasue I know very well that the instant I were to drop the \"too\" another one would surface. Murphy's law would have it so. While the search continues we are indeed indebted to Alicia for taking in the homeless and to Terry for these most hospitable arrangements, and to those who are working behind the scenes to help our beloved patroness Amy to locate permanent accommodations more suitable for a group of this size and volubility. Meanwhile we must endeavour to keep our spirits up and entertain ourselves with what avenues are avaliable, including the excellent accommodations (though admitedly not so grand as the breakfast roo at Rosings Park) of the Pemberley room at the estate of Lady Kaffeine the magnanimous. Those who have arrived at that location at or about the appointed times have on occasion found somewhat with which to amuse themselves, and look forward to the partic ipation of others who may find their way to that assembly."}, {"response": 2, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (03:57)", "body": ""}, {"response": 2, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (04:05)", "body": ""}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (07:21)", "body": "I think when you post, you have to be careful about hitting the enter or return key on your computer more than once. This may or may not have been what happened. If you have problems with our software or questions, we have another conference called 'yapp' which you can join and direct queries directly to the author of this software, Dave Thaler. If a software fix is required, he usually is pretty prompt in doing it."}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (07:44)", "body": "I'll do my best to faciltitate whatever it is y'all need."}, {"response": 2, "author": "geekman", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (08:23)", "body": "G'day, Well I see there is a fellow Novocastrian in Anna here. Terry this is a great service you are offering but have you thought of the consequences. This is simply going to get too much for you to manage as we're all so gushy about JA and P&P2 etc. I'm a Real Estate Valuer and one and thirty. Oh I'm an Aussie too. Adieu, Ian"}, {"response": 2, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (09:04)", "body": "Hi, I'm Myretta(a soul surfacing as a result of the loss of Amy's board). I have been reading your posts and enjoying your company for a month or so. I didn't realize how devoted I was until the board disappeared. I also realized that I was not returning full value for my enjoyment by not joining in your dialogue. So. . ., as I said, I'm Myretta. I'm a technology and operations manager (that is I am responsible for networks and computer hardware) for a university publishing company. I'm 49 (or less) and live in the Boston area. I am, as Amy and Cheryl both know, available to help where help is needed. Thanks to you all for adding an extra dimension to my days. Myretta"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (09:17)", "body": "Hi Myretta. Thanks for your offers. I could actually use some help deciphering a new bb script. Somehow, though I feel that we should consider this Yapp software since we can get such good support from its developer here. Maybe we should take a look at it. Amy"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Kim", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (09:44)", "body": "I am 35 years old, and I live in the southern part of the US. I am married with no children, but we do have a dalmatian that is just like our child. I am an elementary school librarian. I became interested in Jane Austen after seeing P&P2 on A&E."}, {"response": 2, "author": "haker", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:20)", "body": "Hey everybody! I'm a structural engineer (still haven't found a job since graduating, but I do have a couple of leads.) I live in Mpls. MN USA, but am in Milwaukee visiting my parents for a few days. It's nice to see the familiar face are all here--and some new ones too."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Anneother", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:42)", "body": "I am forty, an architect, and live in Johannesburg, South Africa. I am single, and am owned by two nutty german shepherds."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Anneother", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:43)", "body": "I am forty, an architect, and live in Johannesburg, South Africa. I am single, and am owned by two nutty german shepherds."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Anneother", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:47)", "body": "I promise I only submitted once, don't know what happened"}, {"response": 2, "author": "jane", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:54)", "body": "I have been following the PPBB since August, in its infancy when it was still possible to keep up with the posts and even get some work done. I am a molecular biologist at a biotechnology company in the Boston area. I am 38, married to an Englishman (more Knightley than Darcy). I have a 2 year old daughter, Eve. I am overwhelmed by how generous people have been about offering our group temporary homes, and how enterprising several of the group members are about keeping things going. Jane"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Donna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:58)", "body": "Hi everyone we know each other quit well indeed. Homemaker: children and hubby recently three and forty from NortheastPa."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:03)", "body": "Hi guys I'm here! My name is Rebecca, 22, in my final year at Ryerson University for magazine journalism. Ready to be addicted again."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:36)", "body": "Hi everyone, I got hooked on the BB in August. I am 32 years old and I am a secretary at the University of Virginia."}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:38)", "body": "Hi, I'm Amy 2 from L.A. I'm a screenwriter who works in the film business, and a complete Austen fanatic. I think that Martin Amis said if he had to be stranded on a desert island with a book, then let it be P&P, and that's my view!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Bernie", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:45)", "body": "Hi everyone. Thanks Terry for providing us with a new home. (Do you realise what you have let yourself in for ?). I'm 31 and a lecturer (Assistant Prof.) in Inorganic Chemistry at Queen Mary and Westfield College (part of University of London). Been a JA addict for about 10 years and have been pestering the BB for about 2 months."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Bernie", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:46)", "body": "Hi everyone. Thanks Terry for providing us with a new home. (Do you realise what you have let yourself in for ?). I'm 31 and a lecturer (Assistant Prof.) in Inorganic Chemistry at Queen Mary and Westfield College (part of University of London). Been a JA addict for about 10 years and have been pestering the BB for about 2 months."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Bernie", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:49)", "body": "I don't know why the message showed up twice. I only submitted it once, honest!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (12:37)", "body": "I am Katy - so far as I know older than anyone who has stated an age and therefore not about to state mine. I have read JA since I was a teenager - learned from my mother who read JA all the way through once a year all her reading life. I am a computer professional - would be glad to help with the board if I can in any way."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (13:51)", "body": "Katy, thanks for volunteering. I don't believe that I have you on my list. (A list, a list I have a little list) Please e-mail your e-mail at clsneed@ix.netcom.com Thanks!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:21)", "body": "Katy, ignore the above message,I've got your e-mail address (duh!). You're officially On The List! Thanks."}, {"response": 2, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:45)", "body": "Hello Everyone, it so nice to all be back My name in Michalene but you'll see me logged on as Mich. I'm one & thirty. I only found out about Austin after seeing P&P2 but I'm so happy I did. Amy's board has help keep my obsession manageable which I greatly appreciate. I run a computer integration company in San Francisco where my main focus is keeping the operational side of the house running smoothly. I'm originally from Idaho but moved to California 10 years ago.I hated the snow in Idaho. I'm using netscape and PSI on a frame relay 128K circuit. I work alot so Hobbies are few. Your all such a nice group of people.I really enjoy the time I spend with you. Thanks! Mich"}, {"response": 2, "author": "EricB", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:09)", "body": "For those of you who have missed my introductions on the late, lamented P&P2 BB of Amy's, I am LT Eric B. Verhulst, Chaplain Corps, U.S. Navy Reserve serving at U.S. Naval Air Station Sigonella, Sicily (if you look for it on a map, you probably won't find it, but it's near Catania). I moved here one year ago from a small town (20 people, counting my family of five) after joining the Navy 1 Oct 95. I have three children (Dana, 8; Roger, 6; Brant, 3) a wife (Barb, age classified). I am 32. I find making sermons very agreeable, but also play wargames, make snide comments, gossip, watch movies based on JA novels, read JA novels, and dink around on computers. I do sometimes walk sideways commenting on the cost of window glazing as well, but am in no other wise similar to Mr. Collins."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Louise", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:36)", "body": "How wonderful to find you all here...especially since I still cannot find a way into Pemberley to join for chat. I am, at 43, a part time writer, full-time mother of 2, overwhelmed volunteer, and a confirmed nightowl who stays up too late engrossed in a book or bounding around the web gobbling up Austen/PP2 links. Darcy and I have been meeting at Pemberley (only imagining those longing looks) for 30 years (cripes, I sound like a crone), and he and Lizzy and the gang have stood by me throughout my many incarnations. Thank you Amy for all your kind efforts to keep us together. Alabama bred, Washington beltway bound - Louise"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Saman", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:37)", "body": "I missed you all so much!!!! Fortunately I was able to console myself with the tapes, which my parents bought me for my birthday (they *finally* got the hint). While watching them I kept wanting to run over to the computer and share my thoughts on various scenes with you, and I'm so glad that we can all reconvene! By way of an introduction, I'm 20 and have just finished a degree in Physiology. I live in Wellington, New Zealand. Saman :)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:50)", "body": "Hi, I'm a 58 year old homemaker from the Maryland suburbs of Washington, D.C., with grown children scattered around the country. Formerly British (I finally became American three years ago) I've been an Austen fan since I was 12 at school. I still have my copy of P&P that I won as a school prize - leather bound with gold edges - but also have two other copies of it as well as a complete set of all Austen's books. Many thanks to Terry and Spring for allowing us in here, to Alicia for your beating heart board, and especially to Amy for collecting us all around her in the first place. So many agreeable people - I'm quite enraptured!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (19:42)", "body": "So glad to find you all well and contented. I live in western Maryland, and I teach Mathematics & Actuarial Science at a small state University. Jane Austen is one of my passions, probably the longest lived and most consistent. It's great to have a group to discuss JA, P&P, and P&P2 with -- none of my friends are of like mind! I must just add my grateful thanks to the nice people here at Spring for inviting us in (out of the cold)."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (22:06)", "body": "I have finally found my way in here today, and I'm glad to find so many of you here. The last day or two I have been quite despondent about missing you. I feel I hardly need to introduce myself as I fear I have a reputation, either to live up to, or to put down, depending on who you are. However, in short, I live in Canberra, Australia, with my husband and 3 kids. As well, I'm a sometime relief teacher, and puppet maker. Please email me if you would like to."}, {"response": 2, "author": "DonnaT", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (00:50)", "body": "I feel home again, like when we moved to our new house, the people are familiar but the surroundings arent, but well worth the adapting. I am 46 (did I say that?) and live in Las Vegas Nv. Have been an Austen fan since 14 and I agree with an earlier comment, if I have to do with one book my entire life let it be P & P , ditto for P & P 2. Spring in November, I like it !!!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (11:01)", "body": "I'm Paul Terry Walhus, chief cook and bottle washer for the Spring, which is at http://www.spring.com My email is mailto://terry@spring.com I live in a big house in the country outside of Austin which I'm turning into an \"Internet Cottage\"; we create websites for folks and provide consulting and other services. My interests are fitness activities, basketball, reading and writing, making videos and converting them into animations on the web, dancing, music, camping and hiking, ham radio (ka6atn), and walking."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Stefanie", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (13:14)", "body": "Terry, Have you ever read Pride and Prejudice or any Austen?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (14:27)", "body": "Hi All, So glad to be back among you at last!! I am two and fifty; an obsessive P&P fan; a resident of the Mid-Hudson Valley of New York; a programmer (main frame operating system, almost PC illiterate, unfortunately); married to a lovely man who patiently puts up with this obsession. Besides Jane Austen, I love music and I'm a professional volunteer. A hearty thank you to Terry and Spring for providing us with this temporary home. I was beginning to have severe withdrawal symptoms."}, {"response": 2, "author": "cat", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (16:02)", "body": "Hello! My name is Cat. I am just 18 and am a senior. I live in South Florida with my parents and 2 younger brothers. I plan to go to Cornell or Harvard when I graduate. After which I want to go to vet school and become a Horse vet. I enjoy singing, horseback riding, reading classic novels (especially JA), and listening to music."}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (18:23)", "body": "Putting me on the spot, eh! No, I haven't read any of the books but I've got it on my list to pick up a good compilation of all here works the next time I go to the bookstore. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 20, "subject": "Where we left off", "response_count": 4, "posts": [{"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (08:50)", "body": "Ok, great Amy. You have a nice long topic description but no topic name. How I wish I could get in here and get my hands dirty. Topic was going to be: Where we left off"}, {"response": 20, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (10:46)", "body": "Don't worry I'll fix that."}, {"response": 20, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (13:16)", "body": "Hey, you took out all the capital letters and exclamation points from the thread that I launched in that list... (My meta-board is still \"up\"...)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (16:24)", "body": "Let's have them all back! (Unless that's too much work) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 201, "subject": "Fan Fiction", "response_count": 110, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:10)", "body": "I posted this yesterday, but it seems to have disappeared. So I am posting it again. A Tale of Two Letters The Earl of Matlock's house in Bath. The Earl of Matlock was going over his correspondence for the day. Along with the usual bills and letters from friends, political allies, and business associates were two letters--one from his sister and one from his nephew. After making a quick perusal of these letters, he chuckled to himself. Then went to seek his wife. The Countess, who was unfortunately stricken with rheumatism, was in the breakfast parlor, going over her personal correspondence. \"My dear, I have just received two letters, which I think will interest you greatly. One is from my sister,\" the Countess frowned, for she did not get on with Lady Catherine, \"and one from our nephew, Darcy.\" \"By all means, read the letter from Darcy, but I am sure you can keep Catherine's correspondence to yourself,\" the Countess replied. \"I am afraid not, my dear, as much as would like to,\" stated the Earl, \"in fact, I shall begin with her letter.\" Brother, I am writing to inform you that our nephew, Darcy, is contemplating marriage .... \"Darcy's getting married,\" interrupted the Countess. The Earl gave her a look over his reading glasses. \"All right, my dear, I will keep quiet, I promise,\" the Countess smiled, before taking a sip of tea. .....to a most unsuitable party. The young woman has neither fortune nor connection to recommend her to the family. She has, I know, relatives who engage in trade. Darcy has been so caught in her wiles and allurements that he has forgotten what his duty to the family is. It is my belief that she is an adventuress, who will bring disgrace and ruin upon all the family. It is your duty as head of the family to remind Darcy of those obligations and hopes long held within the family. My own entreaties...... \"More like lectures, if the truth be known,\" the earl commented, which earned him a reciprocal look from the Countess, he coughed to clear his voice before continuing, My own entreaties have fallen on deaf ears. Your son, Edward, has met this woman and I am sure he will verify that is not suitable to be mistress of Pemberley. Therefore, if my nephew persists in marrying this nonity despite all our objections, you must make it that the entire family will disown him--as I have already informed him we would. I know that you will follow my wishes in this matter. Your sister, Lady Catherine de Bourgh \"Spiteful old witch,\" the Countess said. \"As if she would approve any bride for Darcy other than Anne. To ask us to participate in her own maliciousness.....\" \"My dear, calm yourself,\" the Earl interrupted, \"I still have Darcy's letter to read.\" \"Catherine always vexes me,\" the Countess replied, before taking another soothing sip of tea, and choosing a biscuit to nibble on, instructed her husband to read Darcy's letter."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:13)", "body": "Part 2. My dear Aunt and Uncle, I hope this letter finds you well, especially you, my dear aunt. I sincerely hope that taking the waters will prove beneficial to you health. I am writing to you with two purposes in mind. The first, and most important, is to inform you that you may wish me happy. I recently sought and received the hand of Miss Elizabeth Bennet. Miss Bennet is a lovely young woman, in both character and countenance. I am, I believe, the most fortunate of men. While I shall not bore you with the details of our courtship..... \"Bore us with detail, no my dear boy, I want details, \" mumbled the countess, as she selected another biscuit. Please be assured that I have no doubts as regards Miss Bennet's sentiments, as Lady Catherine might have led you believe. As you will undoubtedly guess, Lady Catherine is not pleased with the match. She may have already informed you of her displeasure--I know not--but I beg you will disregard any remarks made by my aunt until you have the pleasure of meeting Miss Bennet for yourselves. My cousin, Edward, who has met Miss Bennet, can tell you what an estimable young woman she is. The second purpose of this letter is to invite you both to Netherfield (the home of my good friend, Mr. Bingley, who is to wed Miss Bennet's eldest sister) until the time of the wedding. I perfectly understand if your health, my dear aunt, prevents you from making the journey. I would not wish to cause you any injury, as you are well aware. If you are unable to make the journey, I beg you will allow me to bring Miss Bennet to visit with you after we are man and wife. Your nephew, Fitzwilliam Darcy The Earl finished reading the letter. He looked at his wife, \"Well, my dear, what to you think?\" he asked. \"I think that it is a very good thing that Edward is on his way to visit us, \"perhaps he can fill us in on the details that Darcy thought would bore us. I cannot say whom I am more vexed with at the moment--Catherine or Darcy.\" \"But, my dear, do you not think that Catherine might be right. Darcy would not be the first man to have head turned by a pretty woman, whose only real interest is fortune and position.\" \"Darcy has been avoiding those women for the past ten years. It is my belief he can spot a fortune hunter at a hundred yards. No, I do not think Catherine could be right--but I will wait to pass judgment until we have questioned Edward.\""}, {"response": 3, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:27)", "body": "Part 3. Col. Fitzwilliam arrived later that afternoon, just in time for tea. After the usual pleasantries and inquiries into the health and well being of all, the Countess launched her objective. \"So, Edward, do tell us about this young woman Darcy is marrying. Tell us about Miss Bennet.\" Col. Fitzwilliam, who had just taken a sip of tea, had a most unfortunate response. The Countess handed him a napkin so that he could clean up the tea that now soaked his lap. An interesting response, thought the Countess. His parents were staring at him, expectantly. \"Mother, Father, I hate to be disobliging, but I must beg you will leave off questioning me until I have time to change,\" he quickly exited the room before his parents could forestall him. Finally, the Countess thought as her son re-entered the drawing room (though Fitzwilliam had only taken a quarter of an hour to change). \"So Darcy is to marry Miss Bennet?\" the Colonel asked. \"Yes, we received a letter from him today,\" here the Countess paused, \"and also one from Lady Catherine. Both of these letters tell us to apply to you for collaboration of their contents. My dear,\" the Countess said to her husband, \"perhaps you should read the letters to Edward.\" Edward Fitzwilliam listened to his father reading the letters. When his father finished reading both letters, he got up and looked out the window (in a manner quite reminiscent of his cousin). He was not sure how much Darcy would like him to relate to parents, and he needed to choose he words carefully. \"Lady Catherine is justified in saying that Miss Bennet has neither fortune or connection in her favor, but as my cousin needs neither, I cannot see how this can be of great importance. Miss Bennet is indeed an estimable young woman, and will suit my cousin very well.\" If he thought that this answer would suit the Countess, he was wrong."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:31)", "body": "Carolyn! Great job...most interesting....are you to stop there? Are we not to hear what their impression is to be? I love it!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:34)", "body": "Thanks for re-posting this Carolyn. It must have fallen into the cracks during our day of chaos."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:51)", "body": "Part 4. \"Edward, come away from the window,\" the Countess ordered. She indicated the chair next to hers, and Fitzwilliam reluctantly sat down. \"Since your cousin has been so disobliging as to not bore us with details you must do so.\" \"Mother, I am not sure I will have the answers to your questions,\" the Colonel confessed. \"I am sure you will do your best, that is all I ask. Now, tell me where and when did he meet this Miss Bennet?\" \"I believe it was last fall, when he visited his friend Bingley's house in Hertfordshire.\" \"So the attachment is of long standing then?\" the Earl asked. He felt some relief at this information. Darcy, he knew, would not be fooled for a long period of time if the young woman was merely after his fortune. \"Yes, I believe so. I met Miss Bennet when Darcy and I visited Lady Catherine last Easter. She was visiting her cousin and his wife,\" thus the Colonel began to relate the whole of cousin's attachment as he knew it, being careful to omit the private conversations between Darcy and himself. \"I found her to be lively, witty and intelligent young woman. Darcy is truly taken with her. He loves her and she would , I believe, only accept his offer of marriage if she returned his feelings. Miss Bennet is truly a fine a young woman, whom I do not doubt will make Darcy very happy.\" The Countess looked at him as if expecting more. Fitzwilliam struggled for something to say that would persuade her to leave off questioning him. Not quite knowing what to say, he found himself saying, \"She makes him smile.\" The Countess leaned back against her chair with a small smile on her face. Fitzwilliam was at a lost why the last should have satisfied her curiosity when everything else had not, but he was not about question this bit of good fortune. Instead, he decided to take advantage of the situation. \"I cannot abide by Lady Catherine dictates. I will be there when Darcy marries Miss Bennet, and I hope you will be, too.\" A servant came into the room to announce that dinner was ready. \"Oh, I would not miss it for the world,\" said the Countess, as she began to rise from her chair. Fitzwilliam quickly offered his assistance. The Countess, walking toward the door with her son by her side. \"You have made me extremely curious to meet Miss Bennet,\" she said as they entered the hallway, \"more so, by what you so artfully sought to avoid telling me.\" The Colonel stopped. The Countess patted his arm, \"Do not worry, I shall not press you on the matter. It is obviously a confidence between y u and Darcy, and I would not wish you to break a confidence.\" The Countess left Fitzwilliam standing in the hallway. His father stopped beside him. \"Your mother is a very special and insightful woman,\" he remarked. \"Yes, she is. Sir,\" the Colonel began, only to be interrupted by his father. \"I also do not wish you to break a confidence between yourself and Darcy. I shall write to him accepting his invitation. But come let us go to dinner, for cook has made all your favorite dishes and I am anxious to get to the apple tarts for dessert.\" The Earl escorted his still bemused son into the dining room."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (09:55)", "body": "Part 5. The next morning the Earl sat down and wrote two letters in reply to those he had received the day before. His nephew received his with great joy. My dear nephew, I am most delighted to hear of your engagement. I am sure Miss Bennet is a lovely young woman whom I will pleased to welcome into the family. Edward is visiting with us and echoed your praises of the young woman. My wife is extremely anxious to meet Miss Bennet, and insists that we visit you at Netherfield as quickly as can possibly be arranged. Your letter has greatly improved her spirits and she says nothing will refrain her from being at your wedding. I will send an express so that you will know exactly when to expect us. Your Uncle, Gerald Fitzwilliam, Earl of Matlock. His sister received hers with a great deal of anger. Sister, I will not bother Darcy with your foolish rantings. No one but you ever had any expectation of Darcy marrying Anne. I feel that it is my duty as head of the family to make Miss Bennet welcome. Edward speaks nothing but praise for the young lady. Catherine, you are only doing yourself a disservice if you persist in your resentment. I will not be party to it, and neither will my family. In this matter you will have to stand alone. I am sorry if my sentiments cause you pain, but I will not follow your wishes in this matter. Your brother, Gerald Fitzwilliam, Earl of Matlock"}, {"response": 8, "author": "mich", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:41)", "body": "Carolyn, what a treat you have given us."}, {"response": 9, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (11:43)", "body": "Carolyn, that's fantastic. I LIKE the Countess. Especially \"Bore us with details, I want details\" She sounds like a fine old gossip."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:06)", "body": "Well done, Carolyn. Very well done, indeed!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:19)", "body": "Carolyn's story has been posted to the Guild ."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:27)", "body": "The Sanwich Man is here."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:01)", "body": "Oh Carolyn! \"She makes him smile.\" I love that, so sweet! Thank you. I agree with kate, I like the Count and Countess very much and should not be sorry to know them better! ;-)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (13:17)", "body": "Oh Carolyn! \"She makes him smile.\" I love that, so sweet! Cheryl, you stole my line! Carolyn, it's WONDERFUL!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (14:36)", "body": "Exactly Cheryl and SusanC, to all : a new found career aka a star(writer) is born Aspiring to become a thespian Cheryl, would see you casted as the lovely Countess ;)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (16:08)", "body": "Well done Carolyn! Brava!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (16:38)", "body": "Carolyn, it's just wonderful. I saw the start of this when you first posted it, but it's even better now that it's finished! I, too, love the Earl and Countess - details, I want details! Should we get her into this group?????;-)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (17:08)", "body": "Thanks everyone. I like the Countess alot--I am sure she will appear again."}, {"response": 19, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:19)", "body": ""}, {"response": 20, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:20)", "body": ""}, {"response": 21, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:35)", "body": "HC: You've designed the book cover before writing the story! I love it, but would Fanny Price (Bertram?) ever approve of anything so ostentatious? ;)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "What a HOOT! JFTR, my DH asked me to clarify that it's the shoot'em up car chase scene that he has been waiting for. I still think it sounds like FP:GE will do the trick!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (19:42)", "body": "Guys -- the new drool topic of yesterday and the day before (#200) was accidentally destroyed, so your last few chapters of \"Young Fitz\" are gone from the board, Inko... Carolyn, the phrase \"foolish rantings\" may have accurately described his thoughts about her, but it wouldn't have been at all usual to include such a phrase, addressed directly to the recipient in the second person, in a letter of the period (since it would have been a breach of conventional propriety)..."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:30)", "body": "It was already posted in the Derbyshire Writers' Guild, H.C., but in case anyone hasn't seen the next 3 chapters, I'll re-post them now: YOUNG FITZWILLIAM DARCY--Part 15 The three weeks in London which followed the four at Rosings were delightful for Fitzwilliam. He missed his uncle John, who had rejoined his regiment, and Pierre, who had remained in Kent, but the town provided such constant fascination and interest that the days seemed to fly by with greater rapidity than he had ever known. Every morning Mr. Stone would hurry him through his lessons in order to leave plenty of time to visit one or another of the major attractions. They visited the Tower of London where Fitzwilliam was thrilled with the history of its famous prisoners, the prisons and different towers, traitor's gate leading from the river, the ravens in the courtyard and the famous Yeomen, guardians of the Tower. They visited the Guildhall and other famous buildings in the heart of the City of London. One day they even journeyed as far as Hampton Court, the famous palace of Sir Thomas More and Henry VIII, where they were happy to find another maze. Fitzwilliam accompanied his father on some of his business visits in the City and to the new shops in Oxford Street. They watched a parliamentary debate from the visitors gallery in the House of Commons and another from the gallery in the House of Lords where they saw his uncle, the Earl of M....., seated with all the other peers of the realm. There were walks with his mother in Kensington gardens and visits to new art galleries where they both delighted in seeing the portraits of Gainsborough and Reyn lds and Lawrence. He accompanied his parents on visits to their many friends in town and found himself quite easy in their company; and he mingled with his parents' friends when they called at their house in the evening before they withdrew for dinner. One highlight of this visit to town was an evening at Vauxhall gardens. There was so much to see that Fitzwilliam did not know which way to turn; there were tight-rope walkers, jugglers, vocal concerts, and horses with acrobatic riders in different parts of the gardens. The evening ended with a large firework display which absolutely astonished him with its power and beauty. He never knew that so much amusement could be sampled in one evening. Another highlight were two visits to the theatre. They saw Sheridan's \"The Rivals\" which Fitzwilliam thought very funny; he laughed so much when Mrs. Malaprop was on stage that he decided he had to read the play to find out what he had missed. They also saw Shakespeare's \"Henry V\" which prompted Fitzwilliam to wish he were an actor. He would like to be the King who advises his men: \"This day is call'd the feast of Crispian. He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd, and rouse him at the name of Crispian... and Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by, from this day to the ending of the world, but we in it shall be remembered--we few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.\" Now, when England was again at war with France, he would like to declaim: \"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; or close the wall up with our English dead. . . . when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger: . . . Follow your spirit; and upon this charge cry \ufffdGod for Harry, England, and Saint George!\" Written over 170 years earlier, it was yet a rousing speech for Fitz' time and stirred the audience to cheers. After the play finished, he told his parents: \"If it were not for Pemberley, I think I would like to act on the stage.\" They smiled but told him very firmly that acting was not a respectable profession and certainly not a suitable one for a member of one of the best families in England. They suggested, instead, that he should read Shakespeare's plays and learn some of the dialogue for his own r their amusement. It was late May before the party returned to Pemberley. Fitzwilliam, while excited about everything he had seen in town, was equally happy to see the familiar park and house again. He was eager to find Miss Field and George to tell them about all his adventures, and to try and interest George in Shakespeare's plays in the hope of having an accomplice in his attempts at acting. George, however, was not interested in anything that sounded too much like school work; instead he related his latest pranks i the village, news of his sisters, and the latest gossip from Lambton."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:31)", "body": "YOUNG FITZWILLIAM DARCY--Part 16 During the summer Fitzwilliam again tried to persuade his father to teach him how to use a gun; he wanted to be able to shoot with the party due to stay at Pemberley for opening day of the grouse season. Thomas discussed this wish with Lady Anne, who was adamantly against the idea, and with Mr. Wickham who saw no harm in it, but agreed that perhaps one more year's wait would be better. \"I wish George were more interested in the land, the hunt, and shooting,\" Mr. Wickham told Mr. Darcy, \"but I am afraid his mind seems to be more occupied with the shops in Lambton, entertainment, and making himself agreeable to all.\" \"Well, confidentially, I wish Fitzwilliam had some of George's ability in that last department,\" Mr. Darcy replied, \"he was easy enough with our friends in town last spring, but I fear that he is very uncomfortable with anyone not in our immediate circle. I enjoy George's easy manners.\" When he found Fitz near the stables his father said: \"I am sorry Fitz. You will be disappointed, I know, but we all think it better you wait another year before you learn to handle a gun.\" \"I was afraid of that, father. Was mother against the idea?\" Fitz asked. \"Yes, she was; I was not much in favour of it either and even Mr. Wickham said it would be wiser to wait another year. Come, Fitz, let us ride together.\" They rode over the fields and Fitz soon left all disappointment behind; he had never held very high hopes of learning to shoot this year and by the time they finished their ride he was quite prepared to wait until next year. Late in August and all through September, while the shooting parties were occupied in the fields, George showed Fitzwilliam how to bring down a bird without a gun. They rode into Lambton and on the green they collected horse chestnuts under the largest tree. They then took their collection to the smithy who punched holes through the chestnuts; George showed Fitzwilliam how to string two or three of them on a long piece of string, swing it around above his head a few times and let the weighted string fl off at a bird. This crude weapon rarely hit its target and, if by chance it did, it only maimed the poor animal. Fitzwilliam thought this very poor sport, but he liked the chestnuts well enough and liked to swing and aim the weapon at a tree or at a fixed spot in a haystack, one day even scaring a young farm hand and farm girl sitting on the far side of the stack. The two boys continued riding to Lambton nearly every day and were often joined in their hunt for chestnuts by some of the local village boys. George seemed to know all of them; he joked and laughed with them while Fitzwilliam stood by, wanting to join in the fun and not quite knowing how to do so; when he finally tried a joke they all stopped to look at him as if he had spoken in a foreign language, as if they did not know whether to laugh at the joke or at him. He felt very disconcerted, took his che tnuts to the smithy, and mounted his horse to head back to Pemberley, leaving George to make his own way back. Luckily the chestnut season was soon over and Fitzwilliam had no more reason to join George in his rides to Lambton."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:33)", "body": "YOUNG FITZWILLIAM DARCY--Part 17 Edmund Stone reported regularly on his pupils' progress to Mr. Darcy, but as he entered the latter's study in January 1794, his mood was depressed and his countenance very serious; he did not look forward to the coming interview for, once again, he had nothing good to report on one of his pupils. \"We have tried everything, Sir, and nothing seems to prevail with him,\" Mr. Stone admitted to Mr. Darcy, \"he will not apply himself to his studies; George has a good mind which, I fear, he is determined to waste in the pursuit of pleasure.\" \"What do you suggest then, Mr. Stone?\" asked Mr. Darcy. \"I have talked to him repeatedly of the need to concentrate on his lessons, but it does not seem to have had any effect on him; I am quite at a loss as to how to handle him.\" \"His manners are excellent, but I do detect a certain frivolous attitude to any serious converse,\" Thomas Darcy thought aloud, asking \"would it help to call Mr. Wickham to hear our concerns regarding his son?\" \"I have talked to Mr. Wickham several times, but I fear he is not at home with him enough to prevail upon his son. I think it is Mrs. Wickham's influence that diverts George from any serious application. Miss Field and I both think that it is time to consider sending him to a boarding school away from this mother's and sisters' company,\" Mr. Stone suggested. \"I think you may be right. And what about Fitz? How is his progress? His mother and I do not want him to go away to school just yet, although I know he must do so in another year or so.\" \"I wish every student were like Fitzwilliam,\" Mr. Stone replied, \"he truly enjoys learning; he has great curiosity and wants to know as much as he can. In fact, if there is any fault with him, it is that he is often too serious; he does not like to waste his time and gets irritated when George disrupts the lessons.\" \"Then you do not think Fitz will be lonely if George goes to school and he stays here?\" \"Perhaps a little lonely when he rides or plays outside, but I think he will be delighted to have his lessons alone without the interruptions, without the divided attention,\" the tutor replied. \"If that is the case, I think your suggestion of sending George to school is a sound one, Mr. Stone. If you will recommend some suitable schools, I will talk to Mr. Wickham and see what can be arranged. I do not think he can go before the Michaelmas term, however, so you will have to struggle a little longer. Thank you for this recommendation, Mr. Stone.\" After the tutor had left the study, Thomas Darcy sat staring out of the window and thought that perhaps he had made a mistake in taking such an interest in George Wickham. Pleasing smiles and an easy manner had clouded his vision and made him overlook a lazy and vain disposition; perhaps his interest had raised George's expectations, as Anne had once suggested, into thinking of himself as an equal to Fitzwilliam. \"Let us hope that boarding school will cure these evils and make him a more serious stude t; he might yet be able to pursue a career in the church,\" he reflected."}, {"response": 27, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:35)", "body": "Carolyn - a lovely story. Every character likeable - believable - and, of course, Lady C gets hers in the end. Perfect!!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:36)", "body": "HC, first off, I love the Fanny logo and I hope you will actually follow up on this idea, Bravo! Secondly, lighten up buddy. It's call Fan- Fiction! The ordinary rules don't apply here, and I for one am sure that if I know someone will be following after and correcting me, I shall never write again!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:38)", "body": "una pretiosa Margarita No comprehende. Por favor ...er... explana----high school Spanish was way too long ago! :-)"}, {"response": 30, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:41)", "body": "tequila, triple sec, limeade, lots of crushed ice, salt on the rim - that's what I understood, Meggin"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "I did not think it was in reference to me, just curious. Margaritas I know very well (love the salt!), una means \"one\" (feminine ending), but pretiosa has me stumped. Could it mean \"pretty\"?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:51)", "body": "so then, maybe it was for you? (you can tell, my Latin is nonexistent, as well)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:57)", "body": "so then, maybe it was for you? blushing furiously I think not (and now it seems that I was fishing for compliment! ;-)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:58)", "body": "Boy your minds are on the profane when they should be on the sacred! ;-) I thought \"UNA PRETIOSA MARGARITA\" would be an appropriate motto for a Price family coat of arms, since it's taken from the Latin Bible (vulgate) where the King James Version has \"A pearl of great PRICE\" (Matthew 13:46). \"Margarita\" is the Greek and Latin word for \"pearl\"..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (21:16)", "body": "I have written a bit more of my hypothetical story: \"What if Lady Catherine had not interfered\" (leading to Darcy and Lizzy never realising they are in love with one another). I have written it through Jane and Bingley's wedding. The first half of this part was shown before, but has been edited again since then. Here is the direct link (the story is already at the Guild ): Between Love and Loss"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "H.C., now my face really is red. I knew (of course) that Margaret means \"pearl\" in Latin but somehow I've never gotten around to reading the bible in anything but the King James version. ;-)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (21:36)", "body": "Ann, please finish this soon. I cannot bear to have Elizabeth and Darcy so distressed. It is so very well written that I eagerly await more."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "Thanks, I will try, but I have been working on this sinve at least October!!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (23:09)", "body": "HENRY; ROTFLOL You've put so much work into the logo, now we want the content."}, {"response": 40, "author": "Becks", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (23:29)", "body": "PLEEZ ANNIE, finish it ASAP! It is so wonderful!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Dina", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (10:36)", "body": "Henry FYI - the Mormon Church also has a book called The Pearl of Great Price. It contains translation of papyrus by Abraham and Moses. No latin I believe, just ancient egyptian."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (12:24)", "body": "Inko; lovely, and do take your time. We will find some other diversion to fill our time until you are ready. Cindy; since HC's book started with a suggestion resulting from 'tandem' writing, perhaps you could persuade your husband to write the necessary car chase scenes. HC: please let us know if you would like some assistance with certain other chapters of your book. I'm sure that we have many proficients here who would be willing to help you out! Wendy, in particular, comes to mind for her excellence in scenes that involve vacuum cleaners..."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "Carolyn, your letters and their reception are so well done, loved the tea on Fitzwilliams lap and when he looked out the window like his cousin... And the Earl chuckling was great...biscuit nibbling made my mind wander... And agree that Ann has left us with our hearts aching for Liz and Fitz. Rather interesting to have Lizzy suffer from her own medicine. I am not really as heard-hearted as that sounds. But I feel sure that it will all come to a happy ending, though Ann is determind to torment us in this delightful way. Thanks"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:14)", "body": "And that sequel on Fanny Price and the Moral Rearmament of the Marsians sure has the makings of a bestseller, from the outside at least..."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:31)", "body": "Carolyn, I am so glad you posted this story again since I missed it the first time; it is wonderful. (Like the others, I loved that \"she makes him smile.\") Inko, I really enjoy your storytelling. I love your attention to small detail such as the chestnuts. Eagerly awaiting the next installment. Ann, lovely. I know you will be busy with your new job but please get our two lovers back together soon."}, {"response": 46, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (19:24)", "body": "ELIZABETH AND DARCY: THE SEQUEL PART 4 Elizabeth Bennet Darcy had never felt more miserable and wretched in her life. Mr Bennet, although much improved as a result of her tireless efforts and attentions, was was still very weak. Elizabeth could not bear to be a minute away from him; many a night, she found herself falling asleep at his side, using one of Mr Bennet's treasured books as her pillow. What truly vexed Lizzy was the insipid, negative platitudes of Doctor Wentworth. The continuous reassurances from both Jane and Bingley concerning th man's character and reputation as one of the best doctors in four counties did little to ease her distress. To be utterly honest, Wentworth's bony frame, thining voice and ashen pallor repelled her, as did his endless repetitions that Mr Bennet could not be expected to live many more nights. Weighing even more heavily on her mind, this very evening, was the strange behaviour of Mr Darcy. It had been four weeks since Elizabeth and Mr Darcy had arrived at Longbourn; for most of that time, however, Lizzy had borne much of the the stress of Mr Bennet's illness alone. Urgent business with his steward had called him twice home to Pemberley and even once, this very week, to London. It pained Elizabeth, in particular, that since leaving Pemberley, they had spent only one night together as truly man nd wife. Even during the rare moments that they were alone, Mr Darcy seemed forever distant. Indeed, his thoughts seemed far occupied by some other place and some other perplexing matter. On many occasions, most especially the night before his departure for London, Lizzy would catch him eyeing her intently. Sometimes, in the privacy of their bedchamber, she even believed he was on the verge of divulging the reason for this unease, only to be interrupted by Jane or one of the servants. \"Is it my family, once again?\" Lizzy thought anxiously. With a blush, she knew that she could not expect him to abide on a daily basis Mrs Bennet's and Mrs Phillips's endless parade of vulgarities and dramatics. As in the days of their engagement, she did all she could to shield him from these embarrassments. Within a week of their arrival, she and Darcy had even removed themselves to Bingley and Jane's comfortable, gracious home in Meryton. Mr Darcy's apparent lack of concern for her father, however, was one mystery that Lizzy could not explain or justify. One of the happiest circumstances arising from her marriage to Mr Darcy was the camraderie that had slowly begun to develop between her father and husband. Elizabeth was particularly touched by the exhuberant attentions that her husband had shown Mr Bennet upon his first visit to the Pemberley library. Mr Darcy could not have been more kind or more indulgent. Heightening her anguish, then, was the realization that since arriving in Hertfordshire, Mr Darcy had been, at the very least, indifferent to Mr Bennet's sufferings. To Elizabeth, it seemed that whenever she chanced to mention her father's condition, the topic of conversation would irrevocably be changed to some news from Pemberley or a letter from Georgiana. Upon his return from London this afternoon, Elizabeth had determined to ask him the real reason behind this puzzling behaviour. A prior engagement a Lucas Lodge, however, had intervened once again. Elizabeth bitterly reflected that she had hardly had five minutes alone with Mr Darcy all evening. Tentatively getting up from her dressing table, Lizzy pressed her feverish cheek against the windowpane. To her shock, she noticed that her hands were trembling. Turning, her eyes met Mr Darcy. Instantly, Lizzy wondered how long he had been standing there, observing her. She was still amazed by the power that his touch exerted over her, as he playfully wrapped his arms about her. \"Dearest, loveliest Elizabeth. Have I told you how beautiful you looked this evening?\" For the first time since their marriage, Elizabeth instinctively pulled away from him. \"I thought you had barely noticed. You seemed so captivated by Maria Lucas. She is an excellent dancer, is she not?\" \"Maria Lucas...,\" he said disbelievingly. Smiling, he tried to affect the playful, lively tone that had so bewitched him, all of those months ago. Realizing, however, that she was, in fact, serious, he abruptly replied: \"Maria Lucas was the only young lady without a partner. As your dear friend, Mrs Collins' sister-I felt it proper and my duty to dance....\" \"Really! You astonish me! I can remember a time when you were in no humour to give consequence to young ladies who were slighted by other men.\" \"Darling Elizabeth-what is the matter with you? Indeed-you look very ill. You're trembling. Come sit by the fire.\" Concern etched over his face, Darcy once again sought to take her in his arms. \"I should ask you the same question. NO! Don't touch me! Don't ever touch me!\" All at once, the room went black. Lizzy no longer knew where she was or what she was saying. The last thing she clearly re"}, {"response": 47, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (19:25)", "body": "Don't shoot me. All will be resolved most pleasantly and happily."}, {"response": 48, "author": "summit", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:18)", "body": "All such lovely stories here! Imagine CF is here listening to them in this rapt posture... http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/firthlist/fl_colin.htm"}, {"response": 49, "author": "summit", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:20)", "body": "Sorry, this is the one I meant (but the above is nice also) ;-) http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/firthlist/caretaker4.htm"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:44)", "body": "Lovely, Cass. I've got two quick questions. Will Mr. Bennet live??? and, two, are Lizzie's hormones working overtime at this point????;-)"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:00)", "body": "Don't shoot me. All will be resolved most pleasantly and happily. And soon? Please, please, please! ;-)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:06)", "body": "Inko, that's what I was thinking"}, {"response": 53, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "Mari, DH says, \"What's to write? Dialogue would only detract from the action.\" This is a faithful narrative of all that he said. For my part, I'll answer that he's more a notes guy than a words guy. When he's written songs, he seems to stress out about the lyrics much more so than the tune. However, both manage to turn out beautifully! Therefore, I think he'd be happier to write the theme music for the BBC/A&E adaptation of FP:GE than be involved in the collaboration on the story itself."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Ann", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:56)", "body": "By the way, I think I should warn people that the next section of my story will have Lizzy marrying someone else--not Darcy--(most of this part is written, but still needs work and an entirely new section before I post it). But please have no fear--I do get Darcy and Lizzy together in the end. My story is more of a Persuasion meets P&P story."}, {"response": 55, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (23:07)", "body": "oh, Ann, do hurry"}, {"response": 56, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (23:19)", "body": "Cindy -- \"The BBC/A\u2213E adaptation of FP:GE\" As a certain fictional character might say ``A lady's imagination is very rapid; it jumps from a raw idea to a finished book, and from a finished book to a BBC/A&E adaptation in a moment. I knew you would be wishing me joy.'' I might actually write a little bit of it, since the idea has gotten a nice (if bemused) reception (I sort of have an idea how the beginning might go); but don't expect very much... And Cindy's DH -- no car chases, because the Galactics use an infinitely superior technology to crude petroleum-burning, smog-belching contraptions that actually have moving parts (gasp!!! how frightfully archaic!!), and don't even travel along the local direction of gravity (that's \"up and down\" to you.. )"}, {"response": 57, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (00:31)", "body": "ELIZABETH AND DARCY PART 5 When Elizabeth finally awoke, she could no longer recollect the day or even the hour. The last few days had passed by in a intangible haze, an endless spectacle of strange voices and wrenching pain. It was the first time in her life that she had ever been truly ill. The one constant in this nightmare was Mr Darcy. Even in her state of semi-consciousness, Lizzy vividly recalled his firm, deep voice, insistently begging her not to leave him. Slowly opening her eyes, Lizzy gazed at her sister Jane's smiling face. \"Dearest Lizzy. Is there anything I can get you? You gave us all quite the scare. The doctor has assured us that you are going to be fine. A slight fever-I believe. \"But Jane-where is Mr Darcy?\" \"He left this morning for Pemberley. The doctor swore to him that you were no longer in danger. Charles and I both prevailed on him to attend to his business, leaving you to my care. Although, I am certain he would not have gone if he had known you would awaken so soon. Lizzy-I have never seen a man suffer more than Mr Darcy, these past few days. He never left your bedside for a moment. I don't think he slept once. They had to pry his arms from you when the doctor arrived. Nothing could be done that he di not do himself. He would only let Doctor Davis attend you. \"Doctor Davis?\" \"Yes. Did you not know? Mr Darcy brought Doctor Davis with him for London to consult about Father's illness.\" Jane's last words echoed a hundred times in Lizzy's ears. \"So this was the reason behind Mr Darcy's mysterious trip to London,\" she thought shamefully. How could I have suspected Darcy of indifference!\" All at once, every anxious look and hestitant conversation of the past few weeks took on a richer, bittersweet meaning. Sincerely concerned for her father's health and his dearest Elizabeth's own happiness, Mr Darcy had borne the entirety of the expense of seeking out and enticing one of the most eminent d ctors on the Continent to Longbourn. Instantly, Elizabeth knew that he had done it for her. And her heart filled with the deepest love and gratitude. How much her family owed Mr Darcy, once again. He was truly the best man she had ever known. \"Oh Jane-do tell me. How is dearest Papa?\" Lizzy managed to utter, her dark eyes shining with emotion. \"The good doctor expects him to make a full recovery. Although, Papa would only yield to the good news, upon learning that Mama had decided it was time to leave her vigil upstairs....Lizzy-what is the matter?\" \"Oh Jane-you do not know the hurtful things I said to Darcy. I cannot bear to repeat what I said that night. How could I have misjudged him?\" \"Dearest Lizzy,\" replied Jane confidently, \"whatever quarrel you and Mr Dacry may have had cannot last for long. Only last week, Charles and I reflected that we had never seen two people more madly in love.\""}, {"response": 58, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (02:13)", "body": "Yeah Cass! You didn't kill off Mr. Bennet! Thank you! But, do we get to see the reunion scene between Darcy and Lizzy? Pretty please? ;-) I know she must gain her strength back first, but then...;-)"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (03:19)", "body": "Quick post ...BEWITCHED, BOTHERED and BEWILDERED. Part II or OTHERWISE ENGAGED part 1 The windows of the great stone building were spreading their light into the dark of the gathering November dusk, and every time the door was opened a flood of light and music found it\ufffds way to the courtyard. Guests had been arriving for the last hour and Mr Darcy, who had been at first calmly seated listening to Sir William Lucas and some of his neighbours discussing where to buy the best thoroughbred mare, acted upon an increasing restlessness and started to walk about in his usual manner. From time to time he would look out to watch for newcomers. After a while, as he was pausing at one of the great windows overlooking the drive up to Netherfields\ufffd main entrance, he observed that yet another carriage had arrived. It\ufffds inhabitants were assisted down to the ground and soon an abundance of colour in the form of gowns, ribbons, flowers and lace was moving up the steps. He had by then identified the bearer of one very obvious fethered head dress to be the trying Mrs Bennet and as his gaze was eagerly searching the faces around her, soon enough found w at he was looking for; Miss Elizabeth Bennet in a silk evening cloak of a glossy brown shade with a hood covering her hair and thus, in an enchanting manner, framing her face and eyes. Those were, that instant, lifted up to the facade and began to form an inquiring expression as she caught him watching her. Was it the many torches, held by footmen to assist guests safely into the house, that were reflected in the flash of her glance? He immediately took one step away from the window, and severely reproaching himself on so imprudent behaviour, hastened back to the ballrooms which were by that time swarming with guests. Later there was some minor commotion among the groups of guests, as their host made his way through the rooms, politely conversing with Jane Bennet on his right arm and Elizabeth Bennet on his left. Darcy, sensing this slight stir, turned his head and absolutely started with admiration at the sight of Elizabeth. She was wearing a most becoming yellow gown that closely followed the upper part of her body and was lowcut showing the skin of her lovely neck. There was a twinge inside him. The shade brought ab ut a bewitching glitter and sparkle in her eyes and in her dark curls, tiny white flowers were skilfully intertwined. Though he had recently decided not to let her presence affect him like he had permitted it to do during her stay at Netherfield, it was not in his power to ignore her appearance.He found her remarkable beauty to be quite stunning and was now practically unaware of what he was doing. He turned round to be able to watch her adorable figure moving over the floor at Bingley\ufffds arm. She was chee fully conversing and letting her eyes register what was around her. Was she looking for someone? Then he saw an officer approaching her with a smile of high esteem on his face. He must have had something agreeable to say to her, judging from the bright smile that flashed over her face as she answered him. Their conversation was continued and Darcy- with some inner emotion - saw her bite her soft lip, obviously from disappointment, as he could percieve that some of the light left her face and the look in er eyes was nearly dull for a moment. The next instant he was perplexed to have them both focus their attention upon him. He at once averted his own gaze to some nonsignificant object and was somewhat puzzled by the contents of their dialogue. to be continued..."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (03:24)", "body": "continued... He walked away and took his stand by a window, in order to contemplate the possible cause for Miss Bennet\ufffds displeasure and above all, to prevent any signs of his inner turmoil from being detectable . This renewed experience of her effect on him, in spite of what he had so sincerely intended, was not to his liking. He was used to be in full command of his outer and inner man, and it was now as if he was loosing control due to some deplorable emotional mishap. He could only believe that he had not been s fficiently on his guard, and that now he had seen her and got used to the way she looked, he would not again have his head quite turned. To ascertain that things were perfectly normal, he approached to make some polite enquiries. She replied in a civil but rather cold manner, whereupon she turned away with a noticeable degree of ill-humour. As he had no idea that she blamed him for Wickham\ufffds absence and was resolved against any sort of conversation with himself, Darcy was a bit surprised. Still every proof of her prejudice against him and of her total lack of ingratiation were the very reasons that once more enticed him into paying attenti n to Miss Bennet. All his life, he had been accustomed to women smiling at him, admiring every word he uttered and by every other possible method trying to make themselves agreeable to him. They wanted his name, his wealth, his connections, his estate and - though he had rarely been aware of it - some might even have wanted his person. He was sick and tired of it. He had never been allowed to approach a woman on his own initiative, using his own ingenuity and social ability. He was not used to it at all. He really did not know how to carry it out successfully. It was a challenge and he reacted to it with instants of irresolute wariness, moments of firm resolution , an irregular pulse and a pleasureable sense of vitality."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (06:43)", "body": "Re: 58 But, do we get to see the reunion scene between Darcy and Lizzy? Pretty please? ;-) I know she must gain her strength back first, but then...;-) Yes, Cassandra, please do. Ann, I loved it. Such a pleasant way to start the day."}, {"response": 62, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (07:27)", "body": "ann, words escape me Some words do not: some might even have wanted his person"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (07:51)", "body": "To all the ladies who have written stories, thank you. I have not commented before, but I want you to know that I truly admire your writing talents and really appreciate that you share them with us here. I have begun to read these little vignettes over and over with such regularity that I haven't reread any portion of P&P for over a week now. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And, please don't stop! Linda"}, {"response": 64, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (07:53)", "body": "HC, I cannot clear this with DH before posting (still snoozing), but I believe that whatever the conveyance, the effect is pretty much the same."}, {"response": 65, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (07:56)", "body": "esp., so long as the \"shoot-en-up\" part remains intact"}, {"response": 66, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (08:00)", "body": "Mari, re: #42 - how do I search on \"vacuum cleaner\" so I can try to discover the meaning in this? I'm guessing it predates my finding y'all here"}, {"response": 67, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (08:08)", "body": "plez disregard #66 - just refound the vacuuming scene"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (08:19)", "body": "some might even have wanted his person. No, I cannot allow it! Whatever can you mean? Ann, thank you so much for a great story!"}, {"response": 69, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (10:42)", "body": "Ann R., you rule! Very nice work indeed!"}, {"response": 70, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (11:21)", "body": "how lovely to start the day with a good cup of coffee and a heartwarming/heartthrilling nouvelle"}, {"response": 71, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "not fully awake yet duh"}, {"response": 72, "author": "Dina", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (11:59)", "body": "He had never been allowed to approach a woman on his own initiative, using his own ingenuity and social ability. Excellent!!!"}, {"response": 73, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (12:02)", "body": "Ann2: some might even have wanted his person Why Ann dearest, whomever could you mean?"}, {"response": 74, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (16:44)", "body": "Cheryl, Carolyn, any one that I missed: Thanks. More is coming, when I get some time. And yes-after torturing them so horribly, I am planning the most ROMANTIC of reconciliations."}, {"response": 75, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (17:02)", "body": "Cass, thank you for saving Mr. Bennet; take your time, but we're anxiously awaiting Darcy's and Lizzie's reconciliation - what a hot time in spring that will be!!;-) Anne2, your story is really beautiful. Some might even have wanted his person ! I plead guilty!!!;-)"}, {"response": 76, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (18:31)", "body": "I go away from this board for 48 hours, and look what happens!Wonderful, all of you! Superb bed-time reading! Inko, I'll say this again in case you didn't see my response posted on disaster day- you have made such a nice derangement of epitaphs!and the bit about the horse chestnut seeds- I shall have to conker this! Ann2, you have given us a treasure in \"Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered\" I like it very well indeed!"}, {"response": 77, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (18:41)", "body": "Thanks to all who participate to this thread. It's so imaginative, romantic, heart-wrenching and suspensful. I just love it!"}, {"response": 78, "author": "thorpe", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (18:56)", "body": "Here is a \"sequel\" to P&P Chapter one. Any comments? CRISIS AT PEMBERLY CHAPTER ONE Rain danced in waves across the pond in front of Pemberly Manor. From the Eastern most window of the Great Hall Mrs. Elizabeth Bennet Darcy gazed upon the scene but her mind was engaged elsewhere. Her thoughts were not upon the events of today, despite a frantic race to Plymouth currently in progress by William, her husband of one year, to prevent his sister, Georgiana, and Captain Denny from boarding the sailing ship Oceana bound this eve for the American colonies. Rather it was the long anticipated Pem erly ball held only a fortnight earlier that had precipitated this event which now occupied her attention. How different things had been in the month prior as preparations were set forth. As invitations were prepared announcing the First Anniversary Celebration of the Darcy\ufffds betrothal, Lizzy had looked forward to a reunion of relatives and friends not attempted since their wedding. Owing to the distances to be traveled by many of the guests, including her parents at Longbourn, the ensuing weeks would see the arrival of many parties to be lodged at Pemberly. Her mother had insisted that she and Mr. Bennet and her two sisters come two weeks early so as to acquaint herself with the environs and to ensure that the preparations under the purview of her daughter were properly made. Mr. Bennet, on the other hand had already made several visits on his own during the course of the past year was quite comfortable with the surroundings in contrast to the obvious astonishments of the rest of the family. The impact of the manor, however, was soon replaced by Mrs. Bennet\ufffds condescension to provide her daughter with endless advice for maintaining a superior place among society\ufffds elite. Perhaps it was t e strained relationship with her mother, which may have dated to her rejection of Mr. Collins, a prior suitor, that was the source of many subsequent disagreements that ensued over proper decorum. From that point forward the joy of subsequent arrivals were somewhat lessened by her mother\ufffds numerous attempts to account for the guest accommodations at Pemberly. Finally the day of the ball was at hand. The Bingleys, Elizabeth\ufffds sister and husband Charles, were the first of the day to be warmly greeted by the Darcys regardless of their having traveled only a quarter mile as their closest neighbors. Of great import was the news that her brother-in-law had received a letter from an old friend, Kalon of London Square, soliciting his interest in the Chair of Commons recently vacated by a Sir Malcom Boyd. After some minutes of highly animated discussion, several mem ers of the militia party appeared at the doorstep including Captain Denny and a few familiar faces from their former station in Longbourn. Their presence at Pemberly was singular, but a few of them were close to the Bingleys having attended a ball at Charles\ufffd former residence of Netherfield and were well known to Lizzy\ufffds younger sisters. They were summarily put to work supervising the last minute decorations. Among the arrivals later in the day were the Gardiners, Elizabeth\ufffds cherished aunt and uncle who also exhibited some familiarity with the facilities having visited the house several times since the wedding. Of great surprise, however, even with the issue of a very cordial invitation, was the arrival of Lady Catherine de Bourgh of Rosings\ufffd Park, William\ufffds aunt, who had avowed never again to set foot at Pemberly owing to the disadvantagement of Elizabeth\ufffds relations. She was accompanied by her daughter and Colonel Fitzwilliam, a cousin of her husband. Elizabeth regretted that the Collins\ufffd were nable to join the party due to the illness of Charolette\ufffds father Sir William Lucas. Lastly of import were Mr. Bingley\ufffds sister Caroline with Mr. and Mrs. Hurst, her constant companions now that they had taken up residence in London. Noticeably absent in the guest list of 400 persons was Elizabeth\ufffds sister Lydia Wickham and her husband now occupying residence over 200 miles to the North. It was not, however, for the reason of distance that an invitation had not been forthcoming, rather it was for the numerous improprieties in the pursuit of fortune and pleasure which had offended most who knew Mr. Wickham, and his attempt to disparage William prior to his marriage to Elizabeth. At precisely 8 P.M. the ball was in maximum attendance with introductions complete and music in full discourse. Many sites of highly engaged conversations testified to the uncomfortable distances between old friends and the delightful atmosphere of this long awaited reunion. Of especial attention was the presence of Georgiana, Lizy\ufffds sister-in-law who at age 17 still made her primary residence at Pemberly in the care of the Darcys. A small crowd had formed about the married couple; many were curious ab ut recent developments and life at the estate. It was a joy to both to relate the adventures of their deepening mutual aw"}, {"response": 79, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "Caroline: I shall have to conker this! LOL Caroline. Do you think that's what he said after his fencing bout? Is that why he had to rush off to Pemberley??? Thanks for your kind comments - I did see them earlier and Amy came up with the question \"Conkers\"??"}, {"response": 80, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (23:24)", "body": "Cassandra - great! Thank you so much for having Mr. Bennet live. Can't wait for the reconciliation. Ann2 - I so enjoy your stories. It give me an opportunity to re-live the movie with you wonderful prose. Tom - Welcome. Really enjoyed your story; can't wait to hear more."}, {"response": 81, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (12:19)", "body": "Explanation of the \"Conkers\" comment The horse-chestnut tree, though not native to Britain, is commonly found there. The golf-ball sized seeds, shiny, brown and irresistable to children, are often strung on strings just as Inko describes in her story, but rather than use them as weopons for catching small game, they are used for a game called \"conkers.\" One player holds his string at arm's length, whilst the other takes a swing with his, and tries to hit his other opponents conker. A broken conker is the loser. Pickling the conker hardens it(but is cheating!-just the thing Wickham might do.)\"Conker\" is thought to derive from the word \"conquer\" I think that Darcy's line\"I shall conquer this\" and his later reference to the horse-chestnut tree is a pun made by Andrew Davies. I hesitated to put it on Arnessa's Pun topic because it's not Austen's words and I am still not sure if there isn't more of the joke in the screenplay yet. end of boring lecture Tom- I was really intrigued with your story.Please continue!"}, {"response": 82, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (12:43)", "body": "I now see the light, thanks Caroline"}, {"response": 83, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (17:52)", "body": "Here's another one for all my fellow Knightley-lovers. Cautionary note: I use actual wording from Jane Austen's Emma here throughout the story. I am not in any way attempting to plagiarize -- it's all in fun to support my supposition that both Emma and Mr. Knightley were going through hell! I started to italicize those sections, but it got to be difficult when I was only using fragments, so I left them out. If you haven't read Emma for awhile, have fun finding them! Mr. Knightley'\ufffds Side of the Story Mr. Knightley immediately got up, and in a manner decidedly graver than usual, said, \"I would not go away without seeing you, but I have no time to spare, and therefore must now be gone directly. I am going to London, to spend a few days with John and Isabella. Have you any thing to send or say, besides the `love,' which nobody carries?\" \"Nothing at all. But is not this a sudden scheme?\" asked Emma. \"Yes--rather--I have been thinking of it some little time.\" Though he must go to London, it was very much against his inclination, that he left home at all. He found himself unable to linger any longer, and immediately took his leave. Once outside, he mounted his horse and rode off at a gallop. Mr. Knightley was a man used to being in control of his emotions, and that made his present circumstance all the more difficult. He had cared about Emma for so long that it was instinct to him, but his affections were now somehow altered, almost without his notice. The very real probability of Emma'\ufffds marrying Frank Churchill caused him great consternation -- not just for her happiness, but also for his own. He suddenly realized that he had never before considered even the idea of her marrying, which was foolish indeed. Of course she would marry, but when she married...these words gave his thoughts pause, and a few moments were then sufficient for making him acquainted with his own heart --\ufffd it darted through him with the speed of an arrow that Emma must marry no one but himself! But that was now impossible. How could he have been so blind to the change in his feelings for Emma? -- the blunders, the blindness of his own head and heart! To understand, thoroughly understand, his own heart was the first endeavor. How long had Emma been so dear to him, as every feeling declared her now to be? He had loved her and watched over her from a girl, but till now that he was threatened with its loss, he had never known how much of his happiness depended on Emma'\ufffds place in his life. He now saw that he had been in love with Emma and jealous of Frank, from about the same period, one sentiment having probably enlightened him to the other. Yet, was it new for any thing in this world to be unequal, uncertain, incongruous, or for chance and circumstance (as second causes) to direct the human fate? He had no hope, nothing to deserve the name of hope, that he could have that sort of affection from her as that was now in question. That he was wretched, and should probably find this day to be the beginning of wretchedness, was the only certainty he could own. ________________________________________________________________________ Mr. Knightley reached his brother John'\ufffds house at dusk, in as much turmoil as when he had left Hartfield that morning. He quickly repressed those feelings, however, became his gentlemanly self, and greeted his family with real warmth. The exchange of news with John and Isabella, the bustle of his beloved nieces and nephews, soothed his anxious heart greatly -- and he soon settled into the rhythm of their busy household. Even this respite from Highbury was not devoid of distressing elements, however: Isabella was simply an inferior version of Emma, and therefore that dear person was both on his mind and, in one sense, in front of him, at all times. He could not forget her for a moment. Some days into his visit, Mr. Knightley was sitting alone in the house when John entered. Isabella and the children were out in the city, and the solitude had given free rein to Mr. Knightley'\ufffds melancholy thoughts. Although John had previously felt that something was amiss, he had not wanted to interfere unless his advice was solicited; now, his concern for his elder brother caused him to overcome his hesitations and speak. \"George,\" he began carefully, \"you know I would never impose upon you, but if there is anything you wish to discuss with me, I would be a most willing ear.\" On any other occasion, Mr. Knightley would have graciously demurred, but John had found him with his spirits so low that he welcomed a confidant -- he bespoke his despair. \"It is Emma, John; I confess she is much in my thoughts.\" John, who had suspected this attachment for some time -- clearly far longer than his brother -- still kept his silence regarding it. \"And what is it that troubles you about Emma?\" \"In truth, John, I know not where to begin.\" But begin he did, first telling John about Emma'\ufffds apparent attachment to Frank Churchill and the manner in which sh"}, {"response": 84, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (19:11)", "body": "Susan that is excellent. Out does Ms Aylmer by miles."}, {"response": 85, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "Susan -- I like it immensely, truly I do! :-)"}, {"response": 86, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:16)", "body": "Yea Susan! You know, I find it most interesting how all of our stories dwell on the man's point of view, on the torments and longings and romantic yearnings of the man. One might think that we would most readily identify with the woman in the story and what she is feeling. I suppose it does make sense though...we are creating the kind of men that we wish would fall in love with us...a completely fictional character... (but I'm not bitter!) ;-)"}, {"response": 87, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (21:30)", "body": "Oh, Cheryl, how could anyone ever think you bitter! :-) But, as for why the stories are focusing on the hero's feelings, is it not partly because JA primarily focused on the heroine's? We want to know the heroes as well as we know the heroines -- when I think of P&P (the novel) I always feel like I have both characters in my head, that I feel both sets of emotions, etc. I like trying to get the other side of the story. One of the things I really liked about Darcy's Story was the time at Hunsford where Darcy sees Elizabeth as being attracted to him. It was nicely done."}, {"response": 88, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "\"One of the things I really liked about Darcy's Story was the time at Hunsford...\" Don't you meen Hunston?"}, {"response": 89, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:18)", "body": "Not sure if this is \"fan fiction\", but here's a cute post from AUSTEN-L: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:26:15 EST From: Jane Amara Emma and Darcy: what a pair. I think they would be charming (if borderline insufferable snobs) together. That would leave Mr. Knightley free to marry Anne Eliot, who with her love of living in the country would be very happy. How could they not love each other? Then, it's an easy jump to Elizabeth Bennet and Captain Wentworth, and just think how much Mrs. Bennet would like his uniform. At least they could sail away and escape her. Lizzie might just be Louisa Musgrove with a brain. This new pairing keeps everyone at the social status they started with, interestingly, though that was not the goal. Jane Amara Cambridge, Massachusetts"}, {"response": 90, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:32)", "body": "as for why the stories are focusing on the hero's feelings, is it not partly because JA primarily focused on the heroine's? I know that's the case for me, Kathleen."}, {"response": 91, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:46)", "body": "Jane, you horrible thing! ; ) How very disconcerting. I love it."}, {"response": 92, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (00:18)", "body": "I like the idea of Elinore and Brandon, myself. All through the book and the movie I was hoping they would come to their senses and fall in love with one another."}, {"response": 93, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (06:18)", "body": "I do not think she has ever in her life considered me as other than a friend. Poor dear Mr Knigthley.... His horse was a good one and surefooted, and he let him have his head, even occasionally spurring him on.He could not reach his destination quickly enough, and this rain and mud would occasion a brief stop at Donwell for a change of clothing, which his anxious spirits would ill allow Susan, I like the way this gets my imagination working. Well done! And Tom that bit about the rain on the Pemberley pond is great IMHO. Welcome. Inko and Caroline such fun to learn about concker. And Darcy thinking of it as a way out"}, {"response": 94, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (08:30)", "body": "Henry, glad you put up that post-most unsettling, but a hoot, all the same. susan, thank you for the breakfast reading.......and don't worry about the plaigirising(Who can spell on sundays)I twas fun looking them up!"}, {"response": 95, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (22:55)", "body": "Anne is back again! Anne, The Real Story Chapter 3 Anne rushed downstairs, on purpose to tell her mother right away about her lesson, and to thank her for giving her such a great teacher, but she had to wait till after supper, because Lady Catherine was very strict with the rule \"Little girls are to be seen and NOT heard\", so supper passed slowly to poor Anne. Lady Catherine spoke a great deal, about Mrs. King's visit, and how clever Mrs. King thought her to be, and how Mrs. King was jealous of Rosings Park, and how she won the card game against Mrs. King and Mrs. King her and Mrs. King there, which seemed like absolute nonsense to Anne, who would give England to speak, but couldn't, because her mother and Mrs. Jenkinson wouldn't allow it. Supper, however, was over at last, and Anne could finally talk, she began with this strange speech, forgetting grammar or politeness: \"Oh Mamma! So very dearly thank you for givin' me a governess! I learned so much! 'Bout spellin' an' readin' an' I wrote my name six time and Miss Williams said I'm cle'er! And I read nice story! 'twas very jolly! Stay will she Mamma? Please? I'm sure she can teach me, I'm sure! Oh Mamma, Please!\" \"Miss Anne, you must remember you are sick! Don't talk so much, for heaven's sake! And leave the room immediately, sick people can't stay so long out of bed!\" So Anne couldn't tell anything about her lesson, she was very disappointed, as you may easily imagine. Years afterwards, Anne always wondered how she couldn't realize her good fortune. She, however, obeyed immediately and went upstairs, and hoped the morrow would come soon, not knowing the power of the sorrow and terror her young heart was to recive. To be continued..."}, {"response": 96, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (00:32)", "body": "Oh, Aylet I feel so worried. What evil things will happen the next morning? I feel I would want to talk to Lady Catherine and teach her to be grateful for having this lovely little girl..."}, {"response": 97, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:31)", "body": "Ayelet, make sure that monstrous mother gets her deserts, won't you!Poor Anne!"}, {"response": 98, "author": "thorpe", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (18:30)", "body": "Having received some encouragement, here is the next chapter. CRISIS AT PEMBERLY CHAPTER TWO \ufffdI understand that you are here directly from Rosings?\ufffd began Caroline Bingley as the dance got underway. \ufffdYes,\ufffd replied Colonel Fitzwilliam as the next opportunity to speak availed, \ufffdI spend more time there now that Darcy spends less\ufffd. If the truth be known it was not Mr. Darcy\ufffds absence that was demanding more of the Colonel\ufffds time, rather the dire financial status of Rosings. As with many estates the cost of maintenance and standard of living were tailored to the size of its trust income; which in the instance of Sir Lewis de Bourgh was derived in part from the profit of his shipping business. Two threats arising subsequent to his death were now upon Rosings Park. First the income and death taxes of 1798 had become a substantial degradation to the profits of de Bourgh Shipping. The general community of estate owners was becoming more vocal towards setting aside this penalty for successful achievement, but no relief was yet in sight. Second, Lady Catherine had endowed several, indeed, eleven young ladies in the past five years to ensure that her tutelage resulted in the proper introduction of her prot\ufffdg\ufffds to society. Unfortunately this sum had grown to nearly ten thousand pounds. \ufffdIf another candidate is supported, I\ufffdm afraid, Lady Catherine will have to give up much of her style of living to continue at Rosings,\ufffd he pondered. \ufffdI should so like to see the manor, \ufffd continued Ms. Bingley, \ufffdas Darcy has often mentioned many of its particulars.\ufffd The Colonel was not unaffected by this opening from a handsome woman of taste. \ufffdWell, if you are really interested, may I be so bold as to suggest that there is a seat available on our carriage returning tomorrow. I would be delighted to show you the grounds myself.\ufffd \ufffdYou are most kind, sir,\ufffd \ufffd I should look forward to the experience and will speak to my sister directly that I have made new arrangements for the return trip.\ufffd The dance had now ended and Colonel Fitzwilliam made his way towards his aunt to describe his new accommodation. \ufffdI see you have some potential my dear, and could benefit from a month at Rosings.\ufffd said Lady de Bourgh as the interview with Kitty Bennet concluded. It had been quiet at the manor for some time, lacking a new acquaintance since Elizabeth and Mira Lucas had been there and now the Collins\ufffd were away. Turning to Mrs. Bennet she inquired, \ufffdWould Miss Bennet be available to return with me tomorrow. There is a seat unoccupied in my carriage.\ufffd Mrs. Bennet was satisfied beyond her expectations. \ufffdOh, yes mum, her things are all here at Pemberly as we have finished our stay of two weeks.\ufffd \ufffd I will inform Mr. Bennet of your kindness and opportunity, \ufffd as the two hastily departed. In their excitement the approaching Colonel Fitzwilliam was nearly caught off balance. Following the ensuing discussion, in which it was discovered that the carriage had been oversubscribed, Lady Catherine was outraged and commanded that the Colonel rescind his invitation. \ufffdPerhaps there is another solution,\ufffd he responded, \ufffdif Miss de Bourgh would consent to spend some time at Pemberly, I would speak with Darcy.\ufffd Mary de Bourgh of pale and reticent demeanor, showed interest in this suggestion for one of the few times in her existence under the oppressive parenting of her mother. \ufffdBut this can not be tolerated\ufffd \ufffdMrs. Jenkins would be out of sorts\ufffd \ufffdWho would see to my daughter\ufffds needs of health?\ufffd objected his aunt. On the other hand, the thought of lively conversation at Rosings and a new Project was attractive. Yet she could not sit well with the thought of approaching Elizabeth Darcy with such a proposal. At last she relented, \ufffdVery well, I shall speak again with Mrs. Bennet and request her to forward the need for accommodation to Mrs. Darcy.\ufffd Mrs. Bennet, upon hearing the terms of the long sought tutelage, was also reluctant to confront her daughter with the requested favour given their somewhat strained relationship. Undaunted, however, she spoke with Mr. Bennet. \ufffdMr. Bennet, you must ask Elizabeth to invite Miss de Bourgh for a month at Pemberly so that Kitty may return to Rosings with Lady de Bourgh. It is a good circumstance to improve herself at Rosings Park.\ufffd \ufffdWill she be less silly in the pursuit of gentlemen as a consequence?\ufffd was his reply. Nevertherless the thought of further peace in the Bennet household was an advantage not to be overlooked. \ufffdMr. Bennet it is our duty as parents secure any opportunity to complete the education of our children!\ufffd her voice rose. \ufffdYes, my dear,\ufffd he answered, \ufffdand I will attempt the entreaty, but why is it dependent upon Miss de Bourgh\ufffds visit to Derbyshire?\ufffd The added explanation of Mr. Bingley\ufffds sister\ufffds invitation by the Colonel was further reason, for it indirectly benefited his favorite son-in-law. Thus armed he set off to find his daughter. \ufffdDarcy, I have a favour to ask that I may impose on your magnanimity, \ufffd Colonel Fitzwilliam"}, {"response": 99, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:46)", "body": "...Anne, who would give England to speak... (Yes, but how would she ever get a word in edgewise!) I'm all anticipation, Ayelet! Tom, thanks for a very entertaining sequel!"}, {"response": 100, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (13:39)", "body": "Mary de Bourgh of pale and reticent demeanor, showed interest in this suggestion for one of the few times in her existence under the oppressive parenting of her mother. Did you mean Anne?"}, {"response": 101, "author": "thorpe", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (14:50)", "body": "Dina: Yes, thanks. Do the quote marks come through or do they show up as numbers 2 and 3 (It may be an artifact of pasting from Word)?"}, {"response": 102, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:13)", "body": "Have enjoyed everything I've read, but am having a problem getting responses from about 75 to 100? Cassandra did you ever finish that great story? I only found it today, all these other poor people must be on pins and needles!! Capital idea on this BB -- so much talent. thanks"}, {"response": 103, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:37)", "body": "Tom, you are right- punctuation by numbers. Still readable though."}, {"response": 104, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:38)", "body": "Yes Tom, they do not seem to work .I use the single apostrophe under the asterisk...I have printed your 'Chrisis two' and shall read it tonight; am looking forward to it.Anne (Yeago) all stories are collected at Derbyshire Writers Guild linked on top of this conference(= Austen )page."}, {"response": 105, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:46)", "body": "Ann2- are we posting at the same time?"}, {"response": 106, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (17:43)", "body": "Hi Caroline, I should not be here at all..way too late."}, {"response": 107, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:58)", "body": "Yeago-You are a dear!!! As soon as I get my \"rise of the Parti Quebecois\" paper finished, I'm going to return to Darcy and Elizabeth."}, {"response": 108, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "well...OK (darn) first things first!:-) I've printed a number of stories already! Good thing we've got fresh ink!"}, {"response": 109, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (20:42)", "body": "Parti Quebecois! Pray don't even mention that odious group!"}, {"response": 110, "author": "thorpe", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (10:34)", "body": "CRISIS AT PEMBERLY CHAPTER THREE The music played until long after midnight. The rest of the ball was largely uneventful. For those who made note: Captain Denny danced four times with Giorgiana and Colonel Fitzwilliam three with Caroline. Eventually most of the guests returned to their accommodations in the house; a few, such as Mr. Hurst were in such a stupor that they had to be aided by servants in reclaiming their room. The party of militia left shortly after midnight for their temporary encampment near Lambton. Soon the manor was qui t and Jane had an opportunity to speak with Elizabeth in private while William and Charles sat in the next room. \ufffdLizzy, you must not speak of my pregnancy to anyone until Charles has left for London in two days. I will not have him distracted or give reason to delay his trip.\ufffd \ufffdOf course if that is your wish, but this is cause for celebration and good spirits not worry or distraction.\ufffd was her response. \ufffd I am always here to support your needs and insist that you come to Pemberly while our husbands are way.\ufffd \ufffdThank you, Lizzy I shall look forward to it and I will try to help you with Miss de Bourgh if she is truly as much an invalid as you make out.\ufffd By midday most of the guests had departed including an emotional farewell with the Bennet\ufffds. Mrs. Bennet thanked Elizabeth many times for the inconvenience which had provided Kitty with the visit to Rosings. Her father nodded solemnly knowing the degree of imposition. Only Mary who also \ufffdlooked forward to peace at home\ufffd seemed unaffected by the arrangement. The de Bourgh carriage had left earlier with its crew of new acquaintances. With the departures completed the remaining household was too exhausted t plan immediate ventures and Darcy withdrew to insure the proper wardrobe for his stay in London although unlike Bingley\ufffds it was only to be for one week. Miss de Bourgh was left to be entertained by Giorgiana and a dialog appeared to have begun. At three o\ufffdclock Giorgiana requested a carriage to show Miss de Bourgh the grounds and partake of the fresh air. Elizabeth waved goodbye and returned to her husband for the short time remaining until his departure. The carriage traversed many of the estate\ufffds private roads often barely as wide as their vehicle. After some time Giorgiana directed the driver to a small bluff which provided an excellent view of Pemberly to the east and overlooked its expanse all the way to Lambton to the west. \ufffdIsn\ufffdt this a wonderful spot to experience Derbyshire,\ufffd she exclaimed. Even Miss de Bourgh smiled as she gazed into the distance. \ufffdYou can even see the Militia encampment at the edge of Lambton,\ufffd Giorgiana added. Indeed, in the far distance one of the soldiers could be seen taking a mount and ridding in the direction of their location. By seven that evening the light of day was fading as the long days of summer were nearly at an end. Both William and Elizabeth expressed some consternation as the carriage finally arrived at the front entrance. Giorgiana apologized several times and claimed that together with the beautiful sights and engaging conversation all measure of time had been lost. The following morning Charles appeared and after some regretful expressions toward the upcoming separation, he and William set off for London. The Manor again grew still without the conversation or traffic of the prior nights. Miss de Bourgh and Giorgiana had a late breakfast without much discussion but Lizzy could detect a degree of agitation in Giorgiana, especially when talk of the plans for the day were postponed until Miss de Bourgh could recover from a morning headache, undoubtedly from too much ex osure the day before. Giorgiana had just exited the room when a message was delivered to Lizzy\ufffds table. \ufffdThis note arrived moments ago, madam\ufffd reported her servant Thomas Reynolds. The message was a barely readable scrawl from the Bingley residence. \ufffdMy mistress has fallen and is not able to move. Please come at once. Jonathon. \ufffd With great distress Elizabeth called for her outer garments and a carriage. \ufffdTell Giorgiana where I have gone and send for Doctor Gracepool in Lambton. The trip to the Bingley house was made in record time. Rushing through the entrance, she noticed several bags packed near the foot of the stairs. And there, just descending was Jane. \ufffdJane thank God you\ufffdre all right. I came as soon as the message arrived.\ufffd Jane looked surprised and puzzled, \ufffd Why Lizzy I was just about to leave for Pemberly. What message \ufffd Elizabeth stopped. With a great effort to calm herself she handed the note to Jane. \ufffdWhy this is a forgery. Who would play such a mean trick?\ufffd Lizzy suddenly blurted \ufffdwe must return to Pemberly at once!\ufffd The manor was deserted as the two women returned and quickly entered the Great Hall. \ufffdThomas, where are Giorgiana and Miss de Bourgh?\ufffd Elizabeth demanded. \ufffdMiss de Bourgh is resting upstairs in her bedroom, but Miss Darcy left for Lambton shortly after your departure. She left a letter for "}]}, {"num": 203, "subject": "Knightley - how about his side of the story?", "response_count": 8, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (01:28)", "body": "I think I can oblige you, Serena...I'll take the pianoforte scene at the Coles'...so watch for it! ;)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (16:48)", "body": "A wonderful scene and quite trying to be in his shoes and from his point of view..am looking forward to it Kali. Still working on how Mr Knightley first 'formally' got to meet Harriet Smith."}, {"response": 3, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (16:56)", "body": "Great Idea, Serena! I'm going to write Mr KNightley's version of the ball and BOx Hill, tying in with the trip to London."}, {"response": 4, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:28)", "body": "Oh, Cass, do hurry"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Serena", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (00:38)", "body": "Here\ufffds my boring scene, well compared to Boxhill, Coles etc. though I enjoyed trying to figure it out.. ..some days after his return from London .. He walked over to Hartfield one evening. He believed there might be some letters Mr Woodhouse might want to consult him on. He saw Emma on his way into Mr Woodhouse\ufffds study, giving Serle instructions for boiled eggs and gruel to be served at the table that evening. ..later that evening.. ..enters the \"most-come-at-able\" of guests that Emma had arranged for an evening party on her father\ufffds account.. Miss Bates, Mrs Bates, Mrs Goddard and an additional lady Mrs Goddard had requested permission to bring to Harfield that eveining, Harriet Smith. Enters Knightley.. \"Mr Knightley, do join us for dinner, if you have no previous engagement.\" This was accepted without much ceremony and Mr Woodhouse was interrupted from saying anymore, by Miss Bates\ufffd so good to see you, Mr Knightley..what a pleasant group we have here tonight\ufffd Emma, was across the room and intent in conversation with a young lady with regular features and light coloured hair. He knew that face by sight. He had seen her a few times on his grounds walking about during the summer with Mr Martin\ufffds sisters. Mr Robert Martin was a tenant of Mr Knightley . He was respectable, intelligent, a gentleman-farmer who Mr Knightley thought highly of; a steady and sensible man who lived with his mother and two sisters at the Abbey Mill farm. Harriet Smith had visited and stayed with them for many weeks. Mr Martin had spoken of her, in passing, to Mr Knightley as a parlor boarder at Mrs Goddard\ufffds school. He believed there was some ambiguity about her background and whom it was that had placed her there several years back. .. throughout the evening, he noticed how Emma tried to set her new guest at ease and this marked attention raised his curiosity. From all that he saw and heard passing between them, began to realise that this new founded \ufffdintimacy between Emma and Harriet Smith\" might be \ufffda bad thing\ufffd. .. leading up to his conversation with Mrs Weston in chapter five. Help! I'm beginning to believe this stuff.."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (13:48)", "body": "Nice, Serena...I'm still working on the evening at the Coles'...I have a lot of actual schoolwork to do, including my thesis, Roman coin research, and a paper on the Athenian law courts...so please sit tight, 'kay then?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:50)", "body": "Kali, it wears me out just to read about what you're setting out to do -- do you ever sleep?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (02:15)", "body": "Actually, Susan, no. ;} austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 204, "subject": "Thank you everybody & PSA", "response_count": 17, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:03)", "body": "Laura - I am glad your sister is doing better. You have had a stressful time. My paryers are with you."}, {"response": 2, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "Laura, I did not know about this, but my prayers are going out for your entire family. God bless all of you, and give you a sense of peace & healing."}, {"response": 3, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "Laura, I did not know about this before, but my prayers are now going out for your entire family. God bless all of you, and give you a sense of peace & healing."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (15:54)", "body": "Laura, I didn't know about this either. I'm glad your sister is all right, and I hope she will continue stable for a long time to come. My thoughts are with you and your family."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (16:00)", "body": "Oh good, I am glad she is out. Laura, would you be interested in working with me on a safety page that has first-person testimonials? My oldest son was hit by a car when he was seven, while walking, and I am quite an evangelist about a few things, too (mostly drivers in a hurry ). There is something about standing on your porch seeing your baby motionless in the middle of the street that sticks with a person."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:11)", "body": "Laura, I'm glad to hear your sister is doing better. My prayers will be with you and your family. If I want to see this movie, how should I contact you?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "So glad that your sister is better. I have a friend who has seizures, they can be scary. I am sending up a prayer that she will continue to improve. Linda"}, {"response": 8, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:26)", "body": "Laura, my wishes are certainly with you and your family! May He continue to hold you in his arms and comfort you. Amy, I understand what you mean about seeing your child in danger! My pet cause is trying to get dangerous animals out of our neighborhoods. My son has some scars on his scalp, forehead, and psyche from an incident when our neighbor's Rottweiler/pit bull mix decided who would win the boys' touch football (American) game. Luckily, all of his scars have faded as to be so indistinct. We am so thankful for the way it has turned out."}, {"response": 9, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (21:54)", "body": "Laura, it caught me totally by surprise when you first talked about it at our little gattering at the Ritz and frankly wasn't sure if I understood well enough, a few conversion taking place at the same time. I too am very glad she's out of danger and be assure my thoughts are with you. Child safety of any sort is my first priority when I write my day-care newsletter. Would appreciate your comments, any references and links. If I can be of any help as well, do not hesitate to let me know. Our children are much too often the victims and through caring and awareness will we be able to change some things."}, {"response": 10, "author": "candace", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (23:10)", "body": "Laura -- I am so glad that your sister is out of danger. My thoughts are with you."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (00:42)", "body": "Great news, Laura."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (05:56)", "body": "Laura, you must have had a dreadful time. I know what it's like to have someone near on hospital and to be in doubt of the outcome.Hope she recovers well."}, {"response": 13, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (07:56)", "body": "Amy I know what you mean, my younger brother was hit by a car when he was 9, luckily the car was not going fast, my mother made a joke that my brother actually walked into the moving car and the car had more damage than my brother. I would definitely help you with your awareness page. I see what happened to my sister and it is totally preventable. My sister is now 26 y.o. and she can no longer work. She probably will never have children because of all the medicine she is on. Well enough of this horrible subject. For those who would like to borrow my tape, my sister has not seen the movie so I promised her first, just email me and I will snail mail it to you. It does have commercials, but just fast forward. This movie was very good."}, {"response": 14, "author": "PaulaLovejoy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (18:14)", "body": "Very glad to hear the good news! Thanks for letting us know it all came out so well. These things are really scary. One note of hope -- it sounds like new medications are being developed to treat your sister's condition. Even though this one didn't work out, they are probably working on others, and hopefully will find one that may help her more in the future. My brother, who has epilepsy, is now on a new medication that's much better with far fewer side effects than dilantin, which he took for 15 years! All the best, Paula PS: Did you check out our pictures in the Austen Boston area? Cool!!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:18)", "body": "Glad you like it Paula ;)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (08:02)", "body": "I always feel a bit over protective when I make my sons wear their helmets. Many of our neighbors don't feel it necessary. Even my husband and I wear them. Laura, we wish you and your sister well. God Bless"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (03:51)", "body": "Good news, Laura...best wishes and heartfelt prayers for your family and others in the same situation. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 205, "subject": "Darcy's Story's oopses", "response_count": 34, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (00:53)", "body": "I know it's just barely March 1, but let me weigh in here with how very disconcerting I found it to have Hunsford morph into Hunston at odd intervals."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (11:15)", "body": "That was very annoying Myretta, I agree. I thought it would only be in one section of the book, like the spell checker went a little mad at that point or something, but when it came back again later in the book, that excuse went out the window."}, {"response": 3, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "On p 71 and afterwards she refers to Mr Collins as a \"curate\". I'm no expert on the Church of England, but I though a curate was kind of a second level clergyman. Mr Collins refers to Lady C having preferred him to the RECTORY of the parish, which would make him a Rector, wouldn't it? \"Curate\" always seems to imply someone who hasn't got a living of their own. Does any one have any more info on this?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (13:21)", "body": "Ok, here's another. On page 139 (Elizabeth and Mrs Gardiner having tea with Georgiana, Miss B and Mrs H, Miss B makes the catty comment abou the ____shire militia's departure being a great loss to the Bennet family. On page 140, Darcy notices that Miss B has failed to notice how \"Georgiana had been overcome with confusison at the mention of the name of Wickham\" But she hadn't mentioned W's name. In P&P it says that \"In Darcy's presence she dared not mention Wickham's name.\" In P&P2 she does use Wickham's name, presumably to make it perfectly clear to the audience. But in the book, mere mention of his militia unit is enough to make it clear to E, Darcy and Georgiana who she is talking about."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "Your point about the rectory is true, I think. In fact a curate is on the lowest rung of the clergy-ladder (a curate is more or less filling in for the person who actually holds the living, but is either retired or has better things to do (what a way to run a church!)), while a rector is near the top of the ladder. This makes it all the more astonishing that the idiot Collins would have such a position."}, {"response": 6, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (14:51)", "body": "On p. 138, when Darcy & Georgiana invite \"the travellers from Hertfordshire to dine with them at Pemberley the following day.\" It was, of course, an invitation for the day after the next, and the Gardiners were from London not Hertfordshire. At the beginning of the book, Bingley rides \"the mile over to Longbourn,\" from Netherfield, but Elizabeth walks 3 miles when she goes to visit when Jane is ill. Inconsistency, or perhaps Elizabeth merely takes a longer way!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:15)", "body": "More, more .. from a lurker awaiting the book's arrival.."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (18:37)", "body": "First: re the Curate vs. Rector question. I think, since Collins was only ordained a few months before, he was still at the lowest rung of the C.of E. ladder - a rector. However, the terms may have been interchangeable. I know that \"priest\" would have been wrong--that would denote Catholic vs. Anglican. Now as to oopses: The most offensive one, to me, was the Hunsford, Hunston one -- really annoying. Another one, equally annoying, is on p. 216, last paragraph in a direct quote from P&P: \"The fact is, that you were sick of civility, of defence (sic), of officious attention.\" \"Defence\" should have been \"deference\". Picky, I know, but when reading a direct quote from the original, it's difficult to overlook! There were other small problems, but I didn't mark them so will have to find them again! Perhaps, more later."}, {"response": 9, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (19:24)", "body": "Here's another. On page 212 it refers ( in those extremely annoying indented italicised paras) to a conversation which Darcy had with Georgiana. In reply to the question whether E is someone D will come to \"more than value\" (quite a cute phrases I think) he recalls saying that that is already the case,, in truth, but as to E's view he is uncertain,... he does not know. Yet when that actual conversation takes place on p.167, in reply to the question whether E is someone he could more than value he simply replies that he does not know - ie she leaves out two statements which he later recalls having said. I don't think this is just a small error, because it really changes the nature of what he has confided in Georgiana, which is why I noticed it. Did he tell her that he already \"more than valued\" E, or did he tell her he didnt know?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (20:17)", "body": "Kate, I hadn't noticed that oops before. My own feeling is that he recalls on P.212 a combination of what he thought and said -- i.e., he thought to himself that she already is more to him, but didn't say it aloud to Georgiana. Does that make sense??"}, {"response": 11, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:33)", "body": "Yes, but why recall it as conversation? I mean every other time the author uses indents and italics, she's recalling actual conversation. I think she actually had the longer version, and then edited it on p 167 because she thought it was too direct at that point in the story and forgot to edit p 212. If that's the case it's not the only example of sloppy editing in this book. (ie HUNSTON)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:43)", "body": "My book is out on loan, so I don't have a specific reference, but I do have a very clear recollection of the pronouns \"she and I\" or maybe it was \"her and I\" being used as an object. I'm afraid this kind of thing makes me crazy. The editor in me makes it very hard for me to overook these things and enjoy the story. (I have no idea where the editor in me came from, however.)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "Someone mentioned earlier that Aylmer was in desperate need of an editor. There are lots of inconsistencies within the book and with P&P as well as grammatical and spelling errors, which a good editor could have prevented."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (15:54)", "body": "She definitely needed a good editor. I've found more examples of bad grammar, bad editing, just plain lazy English - it does make me crazy reading it. I feel I should have a blue or red pen in my hand while reading. I wonder whether she was in such a rush to publish (and did she self-publish?) that she didn't take the time to check what she'd written. I'm surprised, though, that both Andrew Davies and the curator of Jane Austen's house liked it and didn't mention these errors? Did they see a manuscript or the finished book when it might have been too late? Just idle thoughts!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "kate", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:10)", "body": "It may have been that the compliment from Andrew Davies et al were lifted from a general comment which was more critical?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:51)", "body": "Kate: I too was stopped cold by the truncated quote you mentioned, to be repeated later at greater length. There are other more annoying errors throughout the book: \"maybe\" for \"may be,\" etc. I can forgive the \"travelers from Hertforshire\" because the Gardiners DID stop there enroute to pick up Lizzy. Also, has anyone else had this experience? -- when I was growing up, it was perfectly acceptable to say \"Elvis and I\"; in fact, it was considered GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT. Then suddenly, the rules changed and it's now \"Elvis and me.\" Was this just a So Cal thing, or did it affect anyone else? I HATE when rules change midstream! (Like Beijing for Peking). OK, end of rant!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (19:23)", "body": "Amy2 - I'm horrified. When did \"Elvis and I\" change to \"Elvis and me\"? It's just not English. You can't say \"Elvis and me went to dinner\"? I agree, why can't they leave decent grammar alone - let today's kids learn what we learnt. Sorry, I forgot, they probably don't teach grammar anymore! I can understand changing place names more easily - though no less annoying!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "The rules didn't change, it depends upon the context. \"Elvis and I went to dinner.\" But, \"Amy2 and Inko went to dinner with Elvis and me.\" I can't find it right now, but there is a case of incorrect usage; i.e. a grammatical error. I cannot quote the rule, but Myretta describes it in her previous post; subject vs. object. Also, the following sentence on page 176 is grammatically incorrect. \"Their carriage came ahead of the othersof the others, so that there could be no reason for he and Bingley to linger.\""}, {"response": 19, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (06:51)", "body": "- when I was growing up, it was perfectly acceptable to say \"Elvis and I\"; in fact, it was considered GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT. Then suddenly, the rules changed and it's now \"Elvis and me.\" When I was growing up, I was taught that it mattered whether \"Elvis and I\" was the subject or the object. The rules still hold. You wouldn't say \"He gave the book to Elvis and I\" just as you wouldn't say \"He gave to book to I\"."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (08:13)", "body": "Thanks, Myretta. I was taught this also, just could not remember the correct terminology. Today, either it is no longer being taught this way, or people are just careless. I suspect that it is the latter. But, I do not think that the rules have changed, we just hear the incorrect usage so much that it becomes acceptable to some; they do not even realize that it is wrong."}, {"response": 21, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (11:03)", "body": "I think the publishing industry might be to blame in part. Priscilla Presley's book was titled ELVIS AND ME. Now wouldn't you say this is THE SUBJECT? And to my ear, it sounds scurrilous!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (12:14)", "body": "I first found this on news casts. They usually have their grammar correct. The first time I heard the anchor say: \"Please join Mark and me again at 11:00....\" I about died, but it is correct. Where is/was the Darcy discussion? Was it in Pemberly and I missed the whole of it? Nothing to read up on? I had to be out of town and not near my computer all day/"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (12:53)", "body": "Dina, the Darcy's Story discussion is taking place at the More Darcy's Story Topic ...but it seems that the corrections topic is getting more posting traffic! Could it be that we are more emotionally involved in the errors, than in the story itself? Hmmmmmm.......;-)"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:02)", "body": "I am so amused to hear you all being upset on grammatical errors and it is as if I heard a friend of mine and...hrm me. I have always been most attentive to those matters and am trying to reconsider in later years since I have heard the Secretary of the Svenska Akademien (the ones with the Nobel Prize ;-))and the Chairman of the Swedish Language Care Council (my private translation) both trying to explain that the language is never fixed once and for all. It is spoken by people and they influence how it i used. You can not say 'is there such a word as'.... If someone has said it, then it exists. I am having trouble with this myself, but trying not to be Darcyish when I hear something that I consider grammatically ugly....It is not easy."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:11)", "body": "Ann2 - that seems to be the way here (the States), too, to a certain extent. I taught Freshman Comp at the local university, and we were basically told that it was too late to remedy grammar for most of our students; we should focus on content. After all, our mentors said, English is a constantly evolving language.......the only problem was that some of our students had \"evolved\" English to such a degree as to be completely unable to communicate with anyone else! ;-)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:24)", "body": "Which then unfortunately leads into something as ridiculous as teaching \"Ebonics.\""}, {"response": 27, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:57)", "body": "I'm not so upset about the grammatical mistakes (though I think its a bit stupid to publish a book which is meant to be Austen-ish and not get your grammar vaguely right) as I am upset about the obvious mistakes and inconsistencies with P&P and within Darcy's Story itself. No, upset is not the right word. I don't really care that much! It just seems to me that there are some really obvious mistakes that any half-decent second reader could have picked up and corrected prior to publication, and that a book that one PAYS for (as opposed to the great stories at the Guild) ought to be a bit more careful with these basic things."}, {"response": 28, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (16:14)", "body": "Since I have not received my copy yet, I want to thank you for this discussion. After reading your comments about P & P, I noticed so much more the second viewing. It makes both reading and viewing far more interesting."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (07:51)", "body": "You have convinced me not to buy the book, ladies.I've got too much more interesting stuff to read, anyway!Thanks for the comments."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (13:51)", "body": "Always thought Elvis had a lot to answer for."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:50)", "body": "to be completely unable to communicate with anyone else! ;-) That certainly is a definite drawback, Tracey ! teaching \"Ebonics. What's that Amy2 ? Elvis had a lot to answer for. Do you mean Elvis'just let me be your teddy-bear' ? Hilary. This is hard for me, I want to understand all the fun, especially when it is nice and dry ;-)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (10:57)", "body": "Ann, I'm not sure how to explain Ebonics. Basically, it's a sort of slang spoken by disadvantaged African American kids in the ghetto. There was a movement afoot in Oakland, CA to make this part of the school curriculum; i.e., to teach these kids in their \"language\" of Ebonics. This engendered quite a bit of controversy -- in L.A., there's a strong protest movement against this. And many African Americans of my acquaintance are embarrassed by this and think it's ridiculous."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:17)", "body": "By the way, it was voted down. Jessie Jackson and I actually agreed on something (for only a week though, when he decided he could see wisdom in this). Ann, the reason the community thought ebonics was a good idea in the first place, is that it would help these kids learn \"proper\" english easier if they understood \"their\" language first. The drop out rate alone would prove this theory wrong. I know, I know - I shouldn't go there. It is just too ridiculous."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:22)", "body": "I suppose it was well meant... As a matter of fact some reasoning along those lines is being done concerning deaf Swedish kids. Earlier they were not alowed to use their own 'Sign Language' (Know what I mean?)Now it is believed essential to have some emotional way into a person before s/he can learn other things. And their school results have improved greatly .And their self esteem. Grown up deaf people can tell of the cruelty of having to actually sit on their hands in school. To prevent them from talkin to other children. Thanks a lot Amy2 and Dina for taking the trouble to enlighten me. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 206, "subject": "Emma 3 (from Mar. 1)", "response_count": 56, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:29)", "body": "There's a great picture of Dominic Rowan (Mr Elton) in The Making of Emma -- the caption reads: Mr Elton's over-dressed hair doesn't come naturally. Cominic Rowan suffers the indignity of . . . heated rollers. He is having makeup applied and has these rollers in his hair -- the expression on his face looks a bit dismayed!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:43)", "body": "Kathleen-Of course!!! WE all adore Emma and Mr KNightley and it's wonderful that we can have so many options and choices. May this classical revival and onslaught of new adaptations continue!!! I agree about P&P0 too. Making Lady Catherine sympathetic? What were they thinking??"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:47)", "body": "I'm so pleased to see all these postings, and fully expect them to continue, ok? Don't make me come after you!! I hope to watch Emma3 again before the weekend is over, and will post any new insights..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "\"He is having makeup applied and has these rollers in his hair\" I want to know if anyone has a picture like that of Firth! He probably had to have the same things done to him. I would love to see a pic of him with curlers in his hair and one of those technicolor hair nets on. I would ROTFLOL."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (07:05)", "body": "I'm all astonishment at such unvarnished cruelty Ann! Don't think I could keep a straight face either though.I would snort at the very least."}, {"response": 6, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (08:28)", "body": "I thought the anagram scene was very well done (BLUNDER & DIXON). So many undercurrents, and all of them played very well. Frank & Jane, Frank & Emma, Mr Knightley's suspicions, Harriet's response to Mr Knightley -- quite delightful to watch all the players (hard to know whom to watch)."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (08:44)", "body": "The more I watch Emma3, the more I like it. The characterisation of Mr Knightly and Emma are just as I always imagined them to be. And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch."}, {"response": 8, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (09:06)", "body": "And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch. Do you suppose there will be a soundtrack? Oh, happy thought indeed!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (14:53)", "body": "]The more I watch Emma3, the more I like it. ... And the music gets to my soul, every time I watch. I must now agree with this conclusion, to my complete surprise. Indeed, the more I see this the more I like, I can now watch KB without squinting. The Irish musical theme, second dance to the ball his imprinted in my mind, a little tune I kind of unknowingly sing from time to time."}, {"response": 10, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (15:23)", "body": "Here's what I found on Webwatch : The last TV adaptation of Austen\ufffds work, Pride & Prejudice, was an amazing success. Emma has been written and produced by the same team. Fans of Pride and Prejudice set up the P&P Bulletin Board - \"a discussion and support group for hopeless addicts to the 1995 adaptation of Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice\". They\ufffdll probably do the same for Emma. http://www.meridian.tv.co.uk/webwatch/webw005.html"}, {"response": 11, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (15:32)", "body": "one from ukonline : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/Members/hugh.c/contents.htm"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:51)", "body": "Thanks for all the wonderful pics. I despair of finding a really good one of Mark Strong as Mr. Knightley, but am by no means giving up. For now, how about this one: I just watched Emma3 again, and am happy to say I agree with those of you liking it better and better with each viewing. Indeed, I am hard pressed to find anything at all to be unhappy about. Even the parts that weren't in the book are growing on me. More observations: Mark Strong is most handsome to me (1) in the scene where he is holding his niece Emma, and he and Emma \"make up\" after their disagreement over Harriet's refusing Mr. Martin; and (2) in the scene where he and Emma are telling Mr. Woodhouse that Mr. Knightley will come to live at Hartfield. I think his handsomeness probably has something to do with the way he is looking at her -- *sigh*. I think his eyes look most large, luminous, and expressive in the scene where Emma is looking at Frank's picture and telling Mr. Knightley that Frank \"may be unable to do what he truly wishes\" and he responds, \"There is one thing a man can always do if he chooses, and that is his duty. If he truly wished it, he could be here tomorrow.\" All through these words, you could drown in those eyes! I think Frank Churchill is absolutely perfect. Although Raymond Coulthard plays him as somewhat of a snake, whatever we know or don't know about FC's character, no really scrupled individual could have taken such glee in pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and in treating Jane Fairfax so poorly in the process, particularly at Box Hill. RC reminds me of a circling shark, with that wide mouthful of shining teeth. I also love the character who played John Knightley (who is he, BTW?). His grumbling speech about having to go out on Christmas Eve causes me to laugh out loud. And when the carriage stops to pick up Mr. Elton, didn't that gentlemen's bowing and scraping behavior bring to mind Mr. Collins? And last but not least, speaking of Mr. Elton, I have always wondered why Emma did not share with anyone, particularly Mr. Knightley, his declarations and behavior in the carriage. At the ball, when Mr. Knightley asks Emma, \"Why are they your enemies?\", it seems like a perfect chance to at least tell him she'll fill him in later. I understand that decorum would dictate less than full disclosure, but no mention at all ? It doesn't make sense to me. (Forgive me if this is covered in the book, and ust tell me to shut up. I haven't read the whole thing for some time now, so I may have just forgotten.)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (17:25)", "body": "Susan -- there are several marvelous pics of Mark Strong in The Making of Emma, but I do not possess a scanner. Another scene where his eyes are beautiful and large is the \"Badly done, Emma, badly done indeed\" bit after Box Hill. Telling Mr Woodhouse about the engagement -- yes, he does look lovestruck (and more than a little lustful) there, does he not. As to Emma telling anyone about Mr Elton's proposal -- I believe Harriet was the only one informed. Some of the locals suspected he was trying for Emma, however, as Miss Bates lets slip (when Mr Elton's real engagement is announced). The Knightley brothers seem to have suspected it (John, at least, tried to warn Emma not to be so friendly/encouraging)."}, {"response": 14, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (18:27)", "body": "I am also one who loved this adaption (from the first viewing BTW). I do however have a couple of questions: 1.) \"She is someone's natural daughter\" Was this a nice way of saying that her mother and father were not married or maybe that she indeed had parents and was not an orphan? 2.) Has anyone purchased a copy yet? Is there missing scenes?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (18:53)", "body": "Susan, I think the reason Emma does not bring up Elton's proposal to Knightley is her embarassment that she had planned a match between Elton and Harriet and tried many times over to 'promote' it and Mr Knightley suspected it. If you recall, at the beginning when Emma says she will match Mr Elton in Knightley's presence. Later when Harriet rejects Mr Martin, Mr Knightley in his anger tells Emma that if Elton was the man intended on for Harriet, that Elton may talk sentimentally but act rationally..he knows the value of a good income.. Since Emma always thought she herself was in control of events around her and her circle, the confession would have shaken her grounds, (ahem..ie. I only think so...."}, {"response": 16, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (18:57)", "body": "Stop me if you've heard this one before - the strawberry party \"Perhaps not\" the brown, brown, brown thing. I like the playful almost-looks he gives to Emma to recognize that he sees her making faces at Mrs. Elton. The color thing works on the BoxHill trip, too. I really like the loss of his voice on the \"indeed\". You can sure tell he's torn up! (He looks a little like Paul Glaser -\"Starsky and Hutch\"- to me as he delivers that last line. ? Go figure!) Due to all the recent talk about receding/baldness my last couple viewings have concentrated on whether I'd like his looks so much after knowing this. (I am so shallow!) Heck, keep the hat on & we're fine! I'm thinking it's fine, anyway!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "Candace: Someone's natural daughter, I think, means she was born out of wedlock and may or may not know who her father was. \"Natural\" in this case doesn't mean she was orphaned (or it could if her mother died in childbirth) but that she had no known father. I bought a tape of Emma3 yesterday and watched it last night. No extra scenes. The whole is only about 100 minutes long in all. But, guess what I found at the beginning? A little of either \"The making of P&P\" or \"Behind the Scenes of P&P\". It was a long ad for the P&P tapes with shots of the filming, a few words from Susie Conklin and Jennifer Ehle saying \"It's such a romantic story\" - but nothing from CF except some shots of him being filmed. My only complaint with that tape is that the sound is cracked up - especially where the music is played. I'm going to try and return it for a better copy, but I'm not sure they'll take it back. I don't think it's my VCR because everything else I play is fine."}, {"response": 18, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "The costume designer (Jenny Beavan) also did S&S2. She decided that the Highbury fashions would be more provincial, less French-inspired. (Her budget was about 1/4 what she had in S&S2.) She worked on the colors, at least for the women. For the men she tried to distinguish between the older and younger generations (Mr Woodhouse & Mr Perry both wear wigs), as well the contrast between Mr Knightley (practical, single color scheme) and Frank Churchill (more fashionable, especially the color contrast between the jacket and breeches). From a previous comment: The actor Guy Henry plays John Knightley. On British tv he has appreared in Stay Lucky, Spywatch, Rumpole of the Bailey, The Two of Us, and Family Ties."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (07:06)", "body": "Candace, if you mean significant scenes - I think one major one was the riddles Harriet was collecting for her book and Mr Elton drops a bomb of a riddle off at Emma's place..which added to the misunderstanding of Emma's - That was totally overlooked and I think would have added more force to Elton's proposal to Emma..and of course Emma's subsequent humilitation in facing Harriet. Emma was let off a little too easy at the end with Harriet's infatuation of Knightley being replaced by Mr Martin's proposal. But on the whole, it was faithful to the book, except for minor details: if Emma had been seen visiting the poor and if Knightley had informed Emma of Elton's marriage. The final celebration scene was not in the book at all - but that grows on you."}, {"response": 20, "author": "janea", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (10:45)", "body": "I\ufffdm sorry, but I\ufffdm not that fond of Emma 3. When I saw it the first time, it was a huge disappointment. Too much from the book is left out. And I don\ufffdt think that Emma develope and grow as she does in the novel. Perhaps it\ufffds just that the adaptation is too short. Imagine P&P2 if it was just 2,5 hours - it wouldn\ufffdt be the same. And I think that Emma 3 would have been much better if it had the same size as P&P2."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Mari", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (13:02)", "body": "Candace; \"She is someone's natural daughter\" Was this a nice way of saying that her mother and father were not married or maybe that she indeed had parents and was not an orphan? She is undoubtedly illegitimate. As in S&S, when Col. Brandon placed Beth in the care of a family in the country, she was placed with someone to be raised. The father, or the family of the mother, would have been responsible for finding someone to raise her, and paying the expenses. It is very likely that she will never know the actual identities of her biological parents. This might seem cruel, but was considered a very generous situation, rather than being sent to one of the 'wonderful' charity insti utions of the time. The family of one or both of these parents would have to be rather well off to assume this kind of a financial burden."}, {"response": 22, "author": "bplaroch", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (17:52)", "body": "In Emma3 when Emma accepts Mr. Knightley's proposal he says, \"I held you in my arms when you were three weeks old\". I can't remember if it was here or on the Austen-L that someone commented that that was a very un-loverlike thing to say, but I disagree. I think it was like an outburst of feeling and emotion with the underlying meaning, \"and I thought I would never be able to hold you in my arms again--but I shall!\" I think that's romantic in a way!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (18:33)", "body": "Barbara (#22) -- I agree with you. I have watched this scene many times, and I think Mr Knightley is just so stunned that he can't think of much to say. Emma is his dearest Emma, the Emma he has loved so long. She has just told him she has always loved him as well, and that she'll marry him. He is practically speechless. He is not a \"romantic\" man in the sense of being able to sweet talk a woman. (I do not suppose he has had much \"dating\" experience at all, in fact.) His words throughout the proposal scene (both from the novel and additional) show him as he is, a plain spoken man with incredibly deep feelings. The look on Strong's face and the sound in his voice when he says, \"You do consent, then?\" are very moving. And the slow build up to the kiss is also nice ; very romantic. *sigh*"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (18:51)", "body": "Jane, I use to think that too that perhaps Kate B. could have warmed up more as Emma if the production was longer.. but many viewings later ..In 100 mins a lot can be accomplished if the scenes permitted. I'm not defending Emma3 (definitely not defacting from the Emma2 camp) but though most of the major scenes were represented, I felt the dialogues which would have endeared Emma to us was missing. eg. in the scene where Emma tells Knightley that Frank is the epitomy of manhood.. a little more bantering between the pair would have done wonders for Kate & Mark Strong. The scene where Knightley says.. anyone may know how highly I regard 'Jane' was left off too abruptly and Emma's 'sorrow' for Harriet time -over was let off to lightly and hence her character wasn't given enough depth. Even Emma's subsequent discovery that she 'loved him' was too subdued.. But this production does grow on you.. especially since there's no other to visually compare with .. till mid April. & Emma 2.. Barbara,.that sentence of Knightley's was romantic wasn't it ? ..he looked like a little puppy with his innocent gaze and .. him bounding down the stairs to look for Emma.. coming as he was, one cannot help feel sorry for him - cos he really looked like he had no chance in suceeding, ever, with his Emma. I thought a second opinion was necessary, so got hubby to watch it for the first time last night and his comment - This is nothing to P&P1, an uptight man and a bitchy woman.. I'm sure they marry at the end.. Jane Austen.. .I do apologise."}, {"response": 25, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:44)", "body": "Mr. Knightley's proposal he says, \"I held you in my arms when you were three weeks old\". I agree - it was very lover-like during the proposal. The line in the book, \"I have been in love with you since you were thirteen at least\" might not have sounded quite right in these days when we are all so aware of and concerned about child sexual abuse."}, {"response": 26, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:06)", "body": "I liked Emma's response, too, which showed her getting back into a playful mode with Mr Knightley. It seemed very real, what real people might say to each other, I mean. I really enjoy this scene. [Serena, yes, he does have a puppy dog look -- with those wonderful big eyes! But he is not a puppy, in Mrs Elton's words.]"}, {"response": 27, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:27)", "body": "No Knighley is not, but isn't Mr. Elton a puppy, though!!! I love how she goes on about how she's a scourge on puppies. And what says Mr. E? \"Yes, Augusta.\" I do really like John here as well. I can't remember him from Emma2, but I do recall my impression from the read was he was certainly a fussy, unpleasant sort. The way he comes off here, though, strikes me as he's griping because he's expected to do so, and that the others are actually rather amused and entertained by the way he goes on. Well, at the very least, I am."}, {"response": 28, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:38)", "body": "re: \"in my arms when 3 wks. old\" comment I have tried to understand the criticism of this. No, it's not a lover's typical passionate comment, but I think it reflects his love for Emma. He has seen her grow; he has come to love her as she has grown through all those years. He has a deeply developed regard for her - not like Darcy's passionate feelings for Lizzy, but very tender, very true, very deep love. I agree that I don't picture Mr. Knightley's having had oodles of experience - he's been at Hartfield, for _____ sakes! When would he have had time? Maybe this is why I picture Mark Strong in this role more than that gorgeous hunk of Jeremy. I can't imagine that HE wouldn't have been pursued avidly by we-know-whom (make a list, or insert your own name here) as well as plenty of his avid contemporariees. MS' attraction isn't as a wildly goodlooking specimen, but very nice in his own way."}, {"response": 29, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:47)", "body": "and you all know which scene I'm thinking on Susan, Johanne, Glory and fame to she who gets me a pic and, speaking of the strawberry party - I LOOOVE the \"are you fond of sheep?\" LOL!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:45)", "body": "Another bit which I have become excessively fond of (of which I have become... I know) is the walk up BoxHill, after the blunder. Miss Bates is on Mr. Knightley's arm relating some story of an excursion she took in the past. Without her talking letting up, continuing the story, she's shown talking to Mr. Weston - Mr. Knightley's now under the tree. I believe there is even one more person shown listening to her before our attention is drawn away from her story. It's great!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (23:01)", "body": "I am really enjoying all this discussion, and agree with most of it, but Mr. Knightley as inexperienced? My mind recoils!!! He may live in Highbury, but he goes to London frequently... I think he's honest and not a flatterer, but innocent? Not my Knightley!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "OOH Cindy! That \"gorgeous hunk of Jeremy...\" Get thee to the Northam drool topic! And I shouldn't really divulge this, but future installments of Emma: Deju-vu will deal with Mr Knightley's romantic past-before Emma."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (00:29)", "body": "Cassandra, don't make us wait long!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (02:29)", "body": "BTW, John Knightley is played by Guy Henry...and a wonderful John he was too! I've always liked John...such a crab...I watched my brand new copy of Emma3 from A&E TWICE last night, and the guy had me busting both guts...To Mr. Elton: \"Get yourself in, Man, the door shut, and the less said the better!\" A better treatment of John than Emma2, but they still didn't go far enough with it...where was his insight on Mr. Elton's intentions? Also, did you guys notice that Raymond Coulthard, who played Frank, looked amazingly like the man who played his father, Jimmy Hazeldine...the same smile, the same wavy hair...it all just looked cheesier on Frank... PS - Cass and I and some others have contributed to a page devoted to the Emma adaptations...it's still under construction, but if you want to take a look and make suggestions (or contribute your own content), it's at http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/emma.html"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (02:36)", "body": "Very nicely done, Kali. You have great taste, baby."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (03:07)", "body": "Thanks, Aim...you taught me everything I know. ;)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (04:59)", "body": "Susan: . . but innocent? Not my Knightley! I did not mean that Mr Knightley is innocent, but I do believe that he is inexperienced romantically. I do not think he has been really in love except with Emma, and I suspect that he did not meet and \"date\" many women, either. One of the very attractive qualities about Mr Knightley is that he behaves to women the same way that he behaves to men. He seems to treat everyone with the respect and consideration that a gentleman should display. He lectures Emma, out of love, and he cuts Mr Elton after the latter snubs Harriet, but he tolerates Mrs Elton even when she is insufferable!"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (07:32)", "body": "One of my favourite scenes is the first one of Knightly and Emma together,where quite unconsciously, She uses body language to tease him when she talks about being troublesome, and he has to quickly look to his glass of wine, or whatever. She obviously has no idea of what she is doing, but he does feel the effect. I think it perfectly sums up their relationship at this point!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (08:20)", "body": "I agree with Susan, Kathleen, and Cindy. I really love this version of Emma. I was not too thrilled with Mark Srong the first time I saw it. However, after buying the video and watching it again, I find Mark Strong to be a very attractive man. He is perfect as Knightly. I too enjoyed the look between Emma and Knightly about being alone at night. Add me to the fan club for this adaptation!"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (09:38)", "body": "Ditto to all of the above. Kathleen, I do see what you mean and it's one of the things I love most about Knightley. I was also referring to other comments in my response."}, {"response": 41, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (14:24)", "body": "Caroline (resp #38): One of my favourite scenes is the first one of Knightly and Emma together . . . She uses body language to tease him when she talks about being troublesome, and he has to quickly look to his glass of wine, or whatever. She obviously has no idea of what she is doing, but he does feel the effect. I did not notice this; I shall have to go back to the beginning (if my tape will rewind that far) to check it out. I must admit that I have been concentrating on the ball, Box Hill, the proposal, and telling Mr Woodhouse about the engagement. [Note to Susan: See, you did not have to come after us; we have kept the discussion going! ;-)]"}, {"response": 42, "author": "ValGal17", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:37)", "body": "I have to say that I am very disappointed with Emma3. I have read the book, and seen one other version of it, the one with Gwyneth Paltrow. I think that the one with G.P. was a lot better. As a rule the book is always better than the movie, and I found no exception in either of these cases. That is one of the reasons that I love P&P2 so much. Not only was it an incredibly great movie, but it also stayed very true to the novel. I do not believe that any movie with a length of only 2.5 hours would be ble to adequatly cover any of JA's novels, that was another great thing about P&P2 - they did not try to cram it all in. It irritates me when playwrites believe that they can make a better story of it than the original autor, and end up changing the plot in the process. The Gwyneth Paltrow version (I will call it thus since I don't remember who produced it or directed it) anyways I believe that that version portrayed the unfolding of the plot much better than Emma3. They showed the development of Emma's character, and, I believe, portrayed all of the characters to more of Jane Austen's liking than Emma3. Emma3's plot did not flow at all. Things happened without giving some reason for them. There was no build up of Mr. Elton's proposal, or Mr. Knightly's love. The o ly superiority that the latter holds is the character of Mr. Woodhouse. Emma3 clearly holds with all of JA's ideas about this humorous man, as the GP version never even attempted to do. The last scene of Emma3 was very cute, but also irritated me. It's not that I do not like the idea of Emma staying good friends with Harriet after they were both married, but Jane Austen clearly stated that they would not be able to have the same aquaintace as before. This might be wrong, but that was the way society functioned then. Jane Austen's literature should not be made into to works that represent a perfect world, but the world that she came from - whatever the flaws may have been. I feel some loyalty to Jane."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:43)", "body": "Valerie, you are welcome to differ-and what you say about the plot-changing makes sense to me. I will only say that it might, just might, grow on you!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:51)", "body": "One of my favorite scenes occurs when Mr. Knightly finds out the reason Frank has gone to London. \"To get his hair cut?\" I love the way he says that. I was a little surprised, however, that he would mutter things about the foolish man under his breath with the father right there. Also, after Mr. Elton proposes and Emma tells him she is not interested, he makes a sound like \"hymph\". What is that second sound he makes? It sounds like there is something stuck in his throat. One last question...How old is Mark Strong?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "Kim: One last question...How old is Mark Strong? According to The Making of Emma, it would seem that Mr Strong is in his mid 30's. The book says, \"Knightley is meant to be 16 years older than Emma. Given that Kate looks a young 21, it was decided to go for a Knightley closer to 35 than to 40.\" Haven't found anything more definite than that, but I will continue looking."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:33)", "body": "Valerie. sounds like you should come visit in Emma2 chat, ie. the one with GP in it. Though, Caroline's hindsight hold much truth for me, Mark Strong's subtlety as Mr Knightley grows steadily on you with each viewing."}, {"response": 47, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (19:52)", "body": "There is so much here I agree with!... Valerie, it really will grow on you. I thought almost the same as you when I first saw it, but after watching it three times, I really like it. I love the way MS says that second 'indeed' at box hill. He is so disappointed and hurt - remember, he thinks there is an understanding btwn Emma and Frank, and he thinks Frank has changed her to a less-nice person. I love the way he holds Emmas' hand the next day, and looks at it, almost as if he thinks it will be for the last time. I like the anagran scene too - it was well done, all the undercurrents are apparent, and the way MS looks when Emma walks away from him - he is hurt, he thinks he's lost her. Susan, I agree with you about John Knightly - I think he's hilarious. I'm glad they did something with him in this version. I have tomorrow off---perhaps I'll have to watch it again while I sew!!!!! I glad there are others here on whom it grew, like me. And I'm glad to know there are no extra scenes - I won't buy it know, as I recorded it without commercials."}, {"response": 48, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (20:33)", "body": "Lynn Lamy: I love the way he holds Emmas' hand the next day, and looks at it, almost as if he thinks it will be for the last time. I agree, that look was heart-breaking. He wants her to know that he knows why she went to visit Miss Bates. Then he takes her hand, and he almost can't let go of it, he caresses it as if he will never be able to be this close to her again. A funny note: I noticed during the Box Hill scene that Mrs Elton was plagued with bees twice. I loved it. (It reminded me of the parrot snapping at Lucy Steele in S&S2.)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (21:36)", "body": "Caroline and Kathleen, did you notice the look she gives Mr. Knightley as and just after she says, \"We always say what we like to one another\"? It was almost come-hither - nice touch. Poor girl never realized what she was puttng the poor man through...!"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:34)", "body": "Yes, Kali, that was the first thing I noticed even in my first 'I-don't want-to-like-it' viewing of Emma3. Her explosive body language in that playful, taunting way made him look so uncomfortable. There were great undercurrents, much more subtle than in Emma2, which is probably why this adapation grows on you and keeps us going back looking for these 'less obvious' signs of affection between them."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:41)", "body": "#41 Kathleen [Note to Susan: See, you did not have to come after us; we have kept the discussion going! ;-)] And I love you all for it! There's still so much more to discuss. #47 Lynn I love the way MS says that second 'indeed' at box hill. He is so disappointed and hurt - remember, he thinks there is an understanding btwn Emma and Frank, and he thinks Frank has changed her to a less-nice person. I really love the way you describe this scene -- my feelings exactly about what Knightley is feeling. Did anyone else think that the actor portraying Mr. Woodhouse was just a tad hammy in some of the scenes? Two in particular for me were (1) when Emma wants him to play backgammon and he jumps rather affectedly when Knightley shows up, and (2) when John announces the snow at Randalls and Mr. W cowers between his daughters, saying \"Whatever shall we do?\" I've always thought this character absolutely hilarious, but felt this actor made him appear too silly for words at times. Comments?"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Serena", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "On the whole, I loved the way Mr Woodhouse was seen, thought the character excellently played and very much in essence with the book. The scene at Randalls, was quite similar to the novel, he looked to Emma for comfort and Isabella, being just like him, was unable to 'sooth' him. In the backgammon scene, he did sound a little annoyed at having a late visitor: but could that be to show up how comfortable Knightley was at hartfield that he could show up long past the proper calling hour. Perhaps so?? John Knightley was simply superb.. he had me in stitches."}, {"response": 53, "author": "janea", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (04:07)", "body": "Valerie, I agree with you so much. I just couldn\ufffdt express it as well as you do. I think it was a mistake to make Emma3 just 2,5 hours. The poor girl has no chance to grow and to mature in that time. Imagine what it would have been like if it was 5 hours. But of course I\ufffdm not all negative. There are lot of things that I really like. Perhaps I just expected too much after P&P 2. One scene that I like is at the ball where Mr Knightley is saving poor Harriet after Mr Elton\ufffds bad behaviour. There is one small detail that I like so much. When Mr Knightley stands up with Harriet, there is not much left of the dance, it\ufffds almost finished. I\ufffdm not sure that I can explain this in English, but I think that it makes him even more goodhearted. It shows how important the gesture is to him. I like that very much."}, {"response": 54, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (06:14)", "body": "Jane: One scene that I like is at the ball where Mr Knightley is saving poor Harriet after Mr Elton\ufffds bad behaviour. . . . When Mr Knightley stands up with Harriet, there is not much left of the dance, it\ufffds almost finished. . . . I think that it makes him even more goodhearted. It shows how important the gesture is to him. I agree. And the fact that he lets Mr Elton know how rude Elton was without actually being rude to Elton himself -- perfect. [I just wish someone could have slapped the Eltons a couple of times. (Smack, smack!)]"}, {"response": 55, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (08:22)", "body": "Just an observation. In the ball scene during the first dance, Emma has stopped to wait for another couple to take a turn. She looks over at Mr. Knightly and gives him a little smile. He turns away and she frowns. However, just a moment later Mr. Knightly is standing next to Jane Fairfax smiling at the dancers. Did I miss something? I enjoy Mr. Knightly's \"very spritly\" when Miss Bates asks him about Frank Churchill at the dance. Susan, please keep your Emma/Knightly stories coming. Wonderful!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:38)", "body": "Did you guys notice that as they pan away from the final shot at the crown, Frank is dancing with a young woman who appears to be Harriet. A nice touch which I hadn't noticed until yesterday...it shows that Frank, despite his dubious double-dealing and selfishness re: the engagement, really is a decent person. I like that. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 207, "subject": "Favorite books (from 2-22-97)", "response_count": 37, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (22:36)", "body": "LynnMarie, reading the old messages - I read quite a bit of Kate Chopin several years ago. There were several of the short stories which I liked very much! Can't remember names or faces, but you've inspired me to get that one back out. My lit. guru wants me to read \"The Bean Trees\" by Barbara Kingsolver. Anybody's impressions?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:05)", "body": "Anyone like James Joyce's Araby? That has to be my favorite short story: \"My body was like a harp and her every word and expression were like fingers playing along the strings....\" That's how I feel about Jeremy KNightley! Also: Scott Fitzgerald's Winter Dreams, Bernice Bobs her Hair, and especially Babylon Revisited. HEmingways' Hills like White Elephants, Faulkner's Rose for Emily, the Open Window, DE Maupassant's the Necklace, Poe's Ligeia and the Black CAt...."}, {"response": 3, "author": "ValGal17", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (17:28)", "body": "I love to read - and have made a vow to read one book per week. So far I have not kept this vow. I am trying though, and that's a start. I have the feeling that there are so many good books out there, I'llnever find the time to read them all. My favorite authors are Jane Austen, of course, Lucy Maud Montgomery, Louisa Mae Alcott (she wrote a lot more than just children's books that many people don't know about), etc. I just read Jane Ere a couple of weeks ago, and loved it. I am now determined to re d other works by all of the Bronte sisters. Another good author is Catherine Marshall. I loved her novel Christy. By the way, I bought Jane's Little Advise Book - and loved it."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:45)", "body": "I am now determined to read other works by all of the Bronte sisters. I recently finished Tenant of Wildfell Hall and liked it a great deal -- much better than Wuthering Heights, but not quite (never!) as much as Jane Eyre."}, {"response": 5, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:50)", "body": "I tried to read Wuthering Heights, but the characters are so self-deprecating, they hate everyone and everything. I read about 150 pages and gave up. I have been searching hi & lo for the Tenant of Wildfell Hall but to no avail. I have been lately on a Maeve Binchy thingy. She's very good, I also could not get into Rosamunde Pilcher, but I did see the movie September when it aired in September. I thought it very good, indeed."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:58)", "body": "Has anybody read Dorothy Cannell's \"Thin Woman\" Mystery series. Not very mysterious but a good laugh."}, {"response": 7, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (07:03)", "body": "Here some good escapist vacation reading: Diana Gabaldon, who is an American, has written a series of four (so far) books set in the forties and sixties and ALSO in the mid 1700s. They're about this young woman who accidentally(!) travels back through time and then can't get back set (initially) in Scotland, so lots of men in kilts... It sounds totally implausible on paper, but I can assure you that I have rarely been more engrossed in a book. I read the whole series ( and they are about 700 pages each) in about a week. The first one is called \"outlander\" in the US and \"Cross Stich\" in the UK and Aus. I think the reason I like them ( apart from the escapism) is that the herione is really strong and has a great sense of humour. If you wnat to read a bit of her books, she has a home page, which has excerpts posted. She was actually \"discovered\" by posting some of her writing on the internet, so there is hope for all you writers yet. http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~gatti/gabaldon/gabaldon.html"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (13:24)", "body": "Oh, PS, thanks for the link; I didn't know about it."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Becks", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (13:33)", "body": "Laura, I love Mauve Binchy too. Read almost all of her books. I guess it's the Irish girl in me that loves her lively characters."}, {"response": 10, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (13:55)", "body": "She's an amazing writer. I feel like one of her characters. Yeah, it must be the Irish in me too. With a name like McCarthy:)"}, {"response": 11, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (17:45)", "body": "I agree with you Laura. I finished reading Wuthering Heights about two weeks ago and I've never been so disgusted with a fictional character as I was with Heathcliff. He drove me nuts. He was so cruel and took his anger out on the wrong people. If he were a real person I would have slapped him, that's how much I despise him. On a brighter note, I just finished The Buccaneers by Edith Wharton and absolutely adored it. It's about American girls who go off to England to find husbands, but more particularly about one girl, Nan St.George, who the youngest of the lot, marries a Duke and discovers that her marriage is not what she thought it would be. It kind of reminded me of Princess Diana and Prince Charles' marriage."}, {"response": 12, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "I agree-Lisa. I love Nan and Guy-the \"beyondness of things..\" One of Wharton's finest works-too bad she didn't live to finish it."}, {"response": 13, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (20:58)", "body": "Cassandra, PBS will be airing The Buccanneers in April or May. I'm not sure of the exact date but I know that Mira Sorvino stars in it."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:28)", "body": "I have been searching hi & lo for the Tenant of Wildfell Hall but to no avail. Laura, it's here on the Net. I think I ran across it by searching for Charlotte Bronte."}, {"response": 15, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "Looking for Tenant from Ann Bront\ufffd on the net : http://www.bibliomania.com/Fiction/Bronte/Tenant/"}, {"response": 16, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (12:12)", "body": "Great-Lisa. Greg Wise, Willoughby, is in it too,as Guy."}, {"response": 17, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (13:49)", "body": "Ooh, can't wait to watch it. He's so handsome. He's exactly who I want to see play Guy. Greg Wise was wonderful as Willoughby but I'm sure I'll prefer him more as Guy. Does Mira Sorvino play Nan? I remember seeing a clip after watching Nostromo and it looks like a great production. I think that after P&P, this is my second favorite novel. I just fell in love with Nan and Guy. Maybe after it airs we can discuss the production and compare the differences to the book."}, {"response": 18, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (16:57)", "body": "I know! It's impossible not to fall in love with Nan and Guy! It is one of my all-time favorite books, better and more engrossing than a lot of finished novels. I can't remember who Miro Sorvino plays-I think Nan's older sister. But, Nan is played by Carla Gugino-I think she played opposite Michael J Fox in his new series. I would love to review/discuss it,compare/contrast the book with the film! I saw the movie when it first aired and it's not completely faithful, but definitely worth watching!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (12:15)", "body": "I am glad I have got it on tape, rather fascinating from what I remember. That old Duchess devoting her whole life to just being Duchess. Scary. Will have to read the book then..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (07:51)", "body": "Hello all, Here is a repost of the 'Pride and Prejudice' summary, complete with minor corrections, and the 'Emma' synopsis I promised: Pride and Prejudice 'Marry well', is Bennet tenet: Bingley singly must remain Since classy Darcy (Lizzy-dizzy) thinks he's far too good for Jane. Rummy mummy, jaunty aunty, these would drag both gallants down - Plus the younger siblings' dribblings over officers in town. See the specious Wicham trick'em with his tales of birthright gloom, See how hideous Lydia's ruin looms before she gets her groom; Glassy Darcy saves the bacon, shaken out of former pride: Is he Lizzy's destined love, to shove her prejudice aside? Has she clout to flout that matron, patroness of priestly coz (He whose ludicrous proposing Rosings rules - like all he does)? Darcy oughter court her daughter, destined his through two decades ... 'Mulish, foolish girl, remember Pemberley's polluted shades!' Dare she share his great estate, or can't Aunt Catherine be defied? Yes! and ere the bells ring jingly, Bingley too shall claim his bride. by Mary Holtby Emma Miss Bates has a visitor: 'My dear Mrs Cole, how very kind - yes, quite well, I thank you - do pray take a seat. We have such news! Have you heard - No? Well, I think it is all a secret, so perhaps I should not say but no one had any idea - except Jane and Mr Churchill, of course, and all the time we thought he was only calling about my mother's spectacles. Dear Jane is much better already - we are so thankful. Do oblige us by taking some refreshment - one of Mr Knightley's baked apples - some cake? Miss Woodhouse called yesterday and was so good as to taste a small slice and pronounce it delicious - such kindness. She is now out with Jane - she takes the news extremely well, considering - no sign of disappointment - Box Hill, yes, delightful - but I am afraid my silly chatter sometimes - however, Mr Churchill did seem so very attentive - but then we are all so fond of the excellent Miss Woodhouse - but to think all this time - one can hardly credit - it was poor Mrs Churchill dying, you know, that let it all out. We have surprises indeed in Highbury, do we not, Mrs Cole? First, Mr Elton suddenly brings back a bride - charming - but some thought he showed a marked preference for Miss Smith, some thought for another - I never notice such things - and now on top of Jane being engaged to Mr Churhill we hear Miss Smith is to marry the good Mr Martin of Abbey Mill Farm - oh, must you be going? So sorry you will not take a baked apple, one of Mr Knightley's - he will be marrying next, I should not be surprised - so much talk of marrying going on - and there's our dear Miss Woodhouse - what could be more suitable?' by Joyce Johnson from: 'How to Become Ridiculously Well-Read in One Evening' compiled by E. O. Parrott Viking, Penguiun Books, 1985"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (04:04)", "body": "Mira sorvino played Nan's friend, not her sister, Virginia. Most people don't agree with me, but the film, was a bit of massacre of the novel...the version I read was NOT finished by a PBS lacky... Imuch preferred house of Mirth and Age of Innocence...still trying to finish Fast and Loose...theI want to read The Reef and Glimpses of the Moon..."}, {"response": 22, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (12:33)", "body": "I do agree. The film is fun, but its not the novel. THey turned the Nan and Guy romance into soap opera. I really missed the key scene when he finds her crying in the cave. He has to confront his feelings-she's not a little girl anymore. Then, he silently kisses her hand-very NA. And towards the very end when she looks back at him-her one friend, beside Miss Testvalley. I also thought they brushed over the \"beyondness\" scene. Maybe it was the way CG read the line."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:23)", "body": "Has anyone read Villette by Charlotte Bronte, its worth a read. Couldn't finish The Professor though. Also if you can find it EM Delafield is great. She wrote several diary like books set in England in the mid to late 1930s. (Plus some others I havent read) BTW her real name was Dashwood."}, {"response": 24, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:29)", "body": "Thanks guys for helping me find Tenant of Wildfell Hall, I finally found it at the library and took it out. Along with 5 other books. I am currently reading A.S. Byatt's Possession, difficult read, but I'm definitely up to it. Beck's I just finished the Glass Lake and I cried and cried like a baby. And the worst thing about it was I finished it on my lunch break in the cafeteria wailing like a baby. People always thought me a strange bird, but now they know I am a strange bird. I cannot wait to see the Buccaneers on PBS it looks so good. But now I feel I will have to read another book. It's a vicious cycle these made for tv movies. I mean good ones with books. This is what I tell my daughter and I try to follow it myself If there is a movie that is playing that she wants to see we will see, BUT if there is a book that goes with it, we read the book first then see the film. I did it with Matilda and was very happy I did, because she asked a lot of questions as to why they didn't include this part or that. Quite ingenous if I may add. Oh, and I'm talking good books, not the Space jam books that come out because of the movie."}, {"response": 25, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:17)", "body": "I've read both All of Charlotte Bronte's novels, including Villette and The Professor , but for some reason stopped reading Tennant of Wildfell Hall after a few chapters. I did like Villette..."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Becks", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (23:45)", "body": "You too Laura!!! That's my fave book of hers! If you loved that one, you should read \"Beach Music\" by Pat Conroy. I cried a river......."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (04:47)", "body": "Laura, have you read Byatt's Of Angels and Insects ? It's in two parts...two separate novellas, actually... Morpho Eugenia is the first...and it's bewitchingly disturbing!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (07:57)", "body": "Kali that was one of the books I was going to take out of the library but I have way too much now to read. I will get to it next month definitely. And just to let you know I did see the movie which was incredible!!!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (10:36)", "body": "Possession, now that's a great book. The first time I read it I was visiting someone and I didn't have time to read it all, so I just read the Christabel and Ashford bits (is that their names - I don't have my copy with me). Then I read the modern bits. Then I read the poetry. Then I read it all in one piece. Not the orthodox approach I'm sure, but it worked for me. I love how there are so many layers to the story - you can just keep reading it and find something new each time."}, {"response": 30, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (18:15)", "body": "Kali, my guru just added Of Angels and Insects to my reading list yesterday. Should I try them in order?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "Yes, Cindy... It doesn't take long to finish, Laura... Morpho Eugenia is only 150 pages, if I remember right..."}, {"response": 32, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "you have a loaner, mebbe?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (00:27)", "body": "I do...but it's at home...e-mail me your address and I'll send it out asap..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "ValGal17", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (18:59)", "body": "I just finished Louisa May Alcott's WORK. It was sooooo good! I just had to tell someone about it. It's about a woman making her way in the world on her own. It is very feminist for the time period in which it was written. Another good Alcott novel is Moods. She wrote a lot of short stories also - Behind a Mask, for example. Anyways I just wanted to say that there a lot of great works to read by Alcott besides Little Women."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (09:18)", "body": "I've been an Alcott fan since I was 8, and I also appreciate her \"adult\" fiction as well. I haven't read Work or Moods, though. Guess I'll have to check them out!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Belinda", "date": "Sun, Mar 30, 1997 (01:02)", "body": "I just finished watching the Buccaneers again ... I'm not sure that I liked it that much, to be honest. It's quite depressing in many ways. They have such desperate lives. By the way, Mira Sorvino's character was Conchita (married to Lord Richard, son of Lord ?Brightingsley or something like that). She was probably the best thing in that production. By the way, I noticed that lots of folk like Maeve Binchy's books - i've just been labouring through \"Firefly Summer\" and not enjoying it at all. Nearly finis ed. Tell me the others are better - I bought an anthology!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Mar 30, 1997 (01:30)", "body": "I'm looking in my satellite guide, is this it? The Buccaneer (Adventure, 1938) Fredric March. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 208, "subject": "Favorite non-Austen movies (from 2-24-97)", "response_count": 35, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (23:58)", "body": "I loved My Cousin Vinny - for using regional differences for humor without 'disrespecting' the individuals."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (00:54)", "body": "My Cousin Vinny Loved that movie! My husband had never heard of it, but got it at the video store when pickings were slim. We laughed and laughed -- Joe Peschi and Marisa Tomei were both great, and the story was really well-done. She won a Best Supporting Actress Oscar for her role."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (12:02)", "body": "I loved Tombstone. I have watched it over and over. I think Val Kilmer should have had best actor Oscar for his excellent potrayal of Doc Holiday."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (13:14)", "body": "I think Val Kilmer should have had best actor Oscar for his excellent potrayal of Doc Holiday. And again I agree -- my favorite scene was when he twirled his tin cup around like a gun in response to another guy's show-off gunplay. Too perfect!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:25)", "body": "For the Jean Reno and Patrick Bruel fans, they've done a Francis Veber' comedy together : Le Jaguard. Knowned for his comedies with tandem G\ufffdrard Depardieu and Pierre Richard, Veber chose Reno and Bruel. Reno plays a translator helping an Amazonian who came to plead his case in Paris. The latter a simple-minded day-to-day guy in which the Amazonian finds his prophet who'll save his people. Humor and exotic adventure on the menu."}, {"response": 6, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:27)", "body": "now this is a better one :"}, {"response": 7, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (17:35)", "body": "Johanne -- thank you. Jean Reno is one of the few scruffy-looking actors I find really sexy (and I mean really, really sexy!). Another future video purchase, I imagine. (That's assuming it makes it to the US.) Johanne, you are too good to us, you truly are."}, {"response": 8, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:29)", "body": "pleasure is all mine, let me assure you, BTW did you know his real name is Juan Moreno R\ufffdno (abr\ufffdg\ufffd), he was born July 30 1948, in Casablanca, Morocco, Espagne (Andalousie). At the age of 12, they left Spain for France. ]] The Jaguar will be released through Gaumont Buena Vista International, so probably Disney/BV will release it in the States ]] he got the role in French Kiss through Kevin Kline, both sharing the same acting teacher in New York ]] Brian de Palma wanted him to be part of Mission Impossible after viewing Luc Besson's Le dernier combat ]]Roseanna's Grave is a love Story produced by City Slickers II' Paul Weiland, which should be released between January and March in the US some links : http://www.ltm.com/dinan/Leon/html/leon300.html http://www.info2000.net/~rocket/pro.htm http://www.missionimpossible.com/a/02-08-nof.shtml here is his filmography : 1978/79 L'HYPOTHESE DU TABLEAU VOLE de Raoul Ruiz 1979 CLAIR DE FEMME de Costa Gavras 1980 VOULEZ-VOUS UN BEBE NOBEL de Robert Pouret 1981 LES BIDASSES AUX GRANDES MANOEUVRES de Rapha\ufffdl Delpard 1980/81 NOUS NE SOMMES PAS DES ANGES de Michel Lang 1981/82 LA PASSANTE DU SANS SOUCIS de Jacques Rouffio 1982 LE DERNIER COMBAT de Luc Besson 1982 SIGNES EXT\ufffdRIEURS DE RICHESSE de Jacques Monnet 1984 NOTRE HISTOIRE de Bertrand Blier 1985 SUBWAY de Luc Besson 1986 I LOVE YOU de Marco Ferreri 1987 LE GRAND BLEU de Luc Besson 1989 NIKITA de Luc Besson 1990 L'HOMME AU MASQUE D'OR d'Eric Duret 1990 L'OPERATION CORNED BEEF de Jean-Marie Poir\ufffd 1991 LOULOU GRAFFITI de Christian le Jal\ufffd 1992 LES VISITEURS de Jean-Marie Poir\ufffd 1994 LEON de Luc Besson 1994 LES TRUFFES de Bernard Nauer 1994 FRENCH KISS de Laurence Kasdan 1994 PAR DELA LES NUAGES de Antonioni/Wenders 1995 MISSION IMPOSSIBLE de Brian de Palma 1995 LE JAGUAR de Francis Veber 1996 ROSEANNA'S GRAVE de Paul Welland"}, {"response": 9, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (12:17)", "body": "OOOH JOhanne! Thank-you. Patrick Bruel-I'm going to have to see that one! Does anyone like the Claude Lelouch classic, Un Homme et une Femme, Man and a Woman with Anouk Aimee. Everytime I see that film, I hear that catchy, title tune in my head for weeks. I liked the recent Les Miserables too with Jean Paul Belmondo."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (20:05)", "body": "I liked the recent Les Miserables too with Jean Paul Belmondo. Liked is not strong enough a word. I was gobsmacked when I wasn't laughing fit to bust.Especially loved the scenes with the letter-writing M.Tour-Eiffel and the young priest.And I wanted to throw something very hard at that rotten farmer."}, {"response": 11, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (14:12)", "body": "and the equal sequel : Un home et une femme, vingt ans d\ufffdj\ufffd also wonderful all sooooo wonderful"}, {"response": 12, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (14:18)", "body": "BTW their is Balzac's Cousin Bette in the making, an american production went shooting near Bordeaux, Jessica Lange/Bette Elisabeth Shue/Jenny Cadine Aden Young as mentionned on Fox UK : Oscar-winning actress Jessica Lange stars with Oscar-nominee Elizabeth Shue in Fox's COUSIN BETTE, a spicy, sexy comedy of manners based on the Honore de Balzac novel. Bob Hoskins and Hugh Laurie co-star as other members of the aristocratic Hulot family embarking on a trail of adultery and fortune-hunting through 1840's French society. COUSIN BETTE marks Des McAnuff feature directing debut after winning a Tony award for 'The Who's Tommy' on Broadway."}, {"response": 13, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (14:23)", "body": "Anybody interested in arts films, check this : http://www.buzzmag.com/ISSUE32/industry32.html"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (00:32)", "body": "Hugh Laurie? S&S? I hope he is in a comedic role"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:02)", "body": "Hugh Laurie AND Bob Hoskins? Sounds like Blackadder meets Roger Rabbit! Gotta be good!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (09:56)", "body": "I just wanted to add that my all-time favorite movie is Dr. Zhivago. It was on Encore or Bravo last week, so know I finally have a taped copy. I still remember watching for the first time - another two nights, simply vexing. I watched it with my dad, which in itself was unusual. He then got me a copy of the book and I have been in love with Uri ever since. But I must admit, this last viewing I kept thinking this would be a perfect role for our favorite Brit!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:39)", "body": "Your favorite Brit being...? ;)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (14:23)", "body": "Kali, You smart-alec. Is there any other? This is becoming a little scary - I'm more obsessed than I thought. I always thought no one could come close to Omar Sharif. Then, I'm snuggled on the couch with the same stupid smile on my face that I always have, then it hits me, CF would be great in this role. After that thought, I shut myself off - the wine was effecting me in ways it never did before!!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (15:19)", "body": "Does anyone share my love for the following foreign films: Babbette's Feast - the definitive food movie. A quiet film about a French refugee in an isolated Danish coastal town, who pays back her friends with the most fabulous feast. Do not view while hungry! The Music Teacher - a somewhat predictable plot, but Jose Van Dam's singing is wonderful. Not to be missed if you like Mozart, Mahler & Shubert. Diva - again an operetic background, but this is quite the thriller. Highly recommended. Jean de Florette (Part I) and Manon of the Spring (Part II). A very intriguing tale about greed and revenge among the French farm set. Has Depardieu as the lead in Part I. See them both; you will enjoy them."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (15:34)", "body": "Anyone who has seen \"Sling Blade\", I have a question to ask. Do you think Carl was born slow, or the product of his traumatic upbringing? I think it was definitely the family life. Such a sad, and touching film."}, {"response": 21, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (16:04)", "body": "Yes Bill, Montand, Depardieu, especially Auteuil as Ugolin were great. Ff you liked JdF and MdS, let me suggest some more from the same novelist, Marcel Pagnol : 1.Chateau de ma mere, Le (1990) (novel) ... aka My Mother's Castle (1990) 2.Gloire de mon pere, La (1990) (novel) ... aka My Father's Glory (1990)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (16:46)", "body": "Bill, actually all films mentioned by you(but one) are among the ones I like to remember,( The Music Teacher is unfamiliar to me)...Had not thought about Diva for years...but it is the one about a young man getting obsessed about an opera singer and following her on tour, without her knowing it?...and he listend to 'Casta Diva' over and over again...such beautiful music. From Babette I recall'Caille au Sarcofage'(spelling Johanne?)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (17:03)", "body": "Yes, Ann. Diva is about the young man who obsesses about the beatiful American Opera star. I've got to get a copy so I can see and again and share it. As for Babette's, there are few people I have envied as much as those lucky few who got to share the lavish feast. About the closest we get is our group of five couples who have been getting together for the last 15 years for a gourmet feast every New Year's Eve. We dress up funny, and each couple prepares a course accompanied by 2 bottles of very good wine. We start at 8 and carouse until 3 am. In between courses we exchange gag gifts we collect during the year. Each year brings anticipation of great pleasure."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (21:27)", "body": "Bill, I also loved Babette's Feast and Diva . Have you seen Big Night , another great food movie? It came out late last year and is still playing at some theaters."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (23:01)", "body": "Yes, I saw Big Night, Anne, and I liked it very much; but its food scenes did not outshine the Babbette Feast. There certainly was much more tension in BN. The surprising thing about BF is how the simple and elegant story line was so riveting."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (01:06)", "body": "I loved The Big Night ! Had to right out and have Italian for dinner! But was longing for the tympano...;-)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "winter", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (03:42)", "body": "i have to say, \"room with a view\" is my all-time favorite movie. it literally was THE movie that changed my life. i rented \"les miserables\" last weekend. excellent film! this is the most recent one, set in WWW2 france. i expected it to be a direct adaption of the novel, only set during the war. to my surprise and amazment, it's les mis. with a twist. anyone ever seen it? i highly recommend it. i have an obsession with british films (ANYTHING mike leigh, EVERY merchant/ivory period piece) and films set in WW2. empire of the sun counts as one of my favorites, along with radio days. (i'm thinking about writing a script about my grandmother's experience during ww2, and her friendship with a WAC (women's army corp) whom she used to shine shoes for. this was during the japanese occupation in the philippines. if i ever block out enough time, i'll write a few sections of it, and hopefully share with yo .)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (05:30)", "body": "That sounds very interesting Winter, hope you'll get around to it... Bill that feast of the year must be something as for the food I can always rely on my Caro sposa who is an excellent chef and who comes down with special offers from time to time. As this is really the film topic I'll mention when we and our close friends watched all three Godfather films during one Sunday and only paused to have different Italian meals, prosciutto, mozarella with tomatoes, saltimbocca...and sweets. We certainly got in the right mood."}, {"response": 29, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:23)", "body": "TNT is showing Fiddler on the Roof - another film that I had forgotten how well I like! Another \"ensemble\" film in which writing, performing, music, technical stuff, etc are all equally strong and mesh seamlessly."}, {"response": 30, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "That was my last-year ('95) Christmas gift from my kids! We all sat down and watched one evening. We now all wish we were rich men! :-) Yes, it's probably about time to do that again, too!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (21:50)", "body": "Just rented/watched ET with my kids. My son is glad to be \"in on it\" now. he really appreciated the kid dressed as Yoda for Halloween, thanks to Empire Strikes Back rerelease. My daughter has been a blubbering idiot for a while. Whoa, if I'm a movie weenie, she is definitely weenie-squared! (wonder where she got it?)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (22:06)", "body": "Fiddler on the Roof has been a favorite for a long time -- the soundtrack has got to be one of the best."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (00:00)", "body": "Oh! Fiddler! I start weeping when Teyve sends his daughter off on the train to Kiev and don't stop til 20 minutes after it's over!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Megan", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (01:33)", "body": "I just saw 'Il Postino'. I highly recommend it. It is a beautiful movie. Felt really bad about the death of the actor who played Mario. He did a wonderful job. Definitely worth seeing.... Megan"}, {"response": 35, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (12:42)", "body": "Il Postino : such a gem of a movie :) yes, definitely worth it austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 209, "subject": "Jokes and Funny Stories", "response_count": 64, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (21:20)", "body": "There's an old lady who's quite distressed over her two female parrots because all they ever say to anyone is :\"Hi! We're prostitutes, do you want to have some fun?\" So she goes to see her parrish priest and asks him if there's anything he can do to help them. He replies:\"I have two male parrots who I've taught to pray all day, to read the bible and to say the rosary. Bring your parrots over to the church and we'll pu t them together. I'm sure my parrots can help cure your parrots.\" The old woman brings her parrots over and places them in the cage with the two male ones. One of the female parrots says:\" Hi! We're prostitutes, do you want to have some fun? One of the male parrots turns to the other one and says: \"Jesus Christ, Frank p ut the bible down, our prayers have been answered!\""}, {"response": 2, "author": "IF", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (03:04)", "body": "Do the stories have to be true or made up?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (06:37)", "body": "Either one is fine."}, {"response": 4, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (10:36)", "body": "I started reading your joke Lisa, while making the mistake of trying to drink some morning coffeee. The coffee landed everywhere! :-) Super LOL. This is a very good idea."}, {"response": 5, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (17:50)", "body": "Thanks Carl, I hope that you have some funny jokes to tell as well."}, {"response": 6, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:10)", "body": "A new priest at his first mass was so nervous he could hardly speak. After mass he asked the monsignor how he had done. The monsignor replied, \"When I am worried about getting nervous on the pulpit, I put a glass of vodka next to the water glass. If I sta rt to get nervous, I take a sip.\" So the next Sunday he took the monsignor's advice. At the beginning of the sermon, he got nervous and took a drink. He then proceeded to talk up a storm. Upon return to his office after mass, he found the following note on his door: 1. Sip the Vodka, don't gulp. 2. There are 10 commandments, not 12. 3. There are 12 disciples, not 10. 4. Jesus was consecrated, not constipated. 5. Jacob wagered his donkey, he did not bet his ass. 6. We do not refer to Jesus Christ as the late J.C. 7. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not referred to as Daddy, Junior, and Spook. 8. David slew Goliath, he did not kick the shit out of him. 9. When David was hit by a rock and knocked off his donkey, don't say \"He was stoned off his ass.\" 10. We do not refer to the cross as the Big T! 11. When Jesus broke the bread at the Last Supper he said,\"Take this and eat it, for it is my body\", he did not say,\"Eat me.\" 12. The Virgin Mary is not reffered to as the, \"Mary with the Cherry\". 13. The recommended grace before a meal is not:\"Rub-A-dub-dub, thanks for the grub, yeah God\" 14. Next Sunday there will be a taffy-pulling contest at St.Peter's, not a peter-pulling contest at St. Taffy's."}, {"response": 7, "author": "candace", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:14)", "body": "Here is a story that my grandmother used to like to tell... Two old women meet on the street: Sophie: So Esther, how is your son's marriage? Esther: Tsk, Tsk...Sophie, my daughter-in-law is an absolute witch! She makes my son turn his whole paycheck over to her, makes him baby-sit the children once a week so that she can run around with her girlfriends, and makes him help her with the housew ork. I'm telling you, she's a witch! Sophie: Oh, too bad...and your daughter and her husband? Esther: A saint! My son-in-law is an absolute saint! He turns his whole paycheck over to her, watches the children once a week so that she can go out with her girlfriends, and helps her with the housework. I'm telling you, he is a saint!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (02:35)", "body": "Received the following in my e-mail from a net-friend who retired last year from job with AT&T in Hong Kong: MESSAGE from =HelenMegan@aol.com 04-MAR-97 1:34 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:31:52 -0500 (EST) I am beginninging to worry about myself. This confirms it. Thanks to Ron Park in HK HOW TO TELL YOU'RE AN INTERNET JUNKIE 1. You wake up a 3 a.m. to go to the bathroom and stop to check your e-mail on the way back to bed. 2. You get a tattoo that reads \"This body best viewed with Netscape Navigator 1.1 or higher.\" 3. You name your children Eudora, Aol and Dotcom. 4. You turn off your modem and get this awful empty feeling, like you just pulled the plug on a loved one. 5. You spend half of the plane trip with your laptop on your lap...and your child in the overhead compartment. 6. You decide to stay in college for an additional year or two, just for the free Internet access. 7. You laugh at people with 14.4-baud modems. 8. You start using smileys in your snail mail. 9. Your hard drive crashes. You haven't logged in for two hours. You start to twitch. You pick up the phone and manually dial your ISP's access number. You try to hum to communicate with the modem. And you succeed. 10. You find yourself typing \"com\" after every period when using a word processor.com 11. You refer to going to the bathroom as downloading. 12. You start introducing yourself as \"David at I-I-Net dot net dot com\" 13. All of your friends have an @ in their names. 14. Your pet has its own home page. 15. You can't call your mother...she doesn't have a modem. 16. You check your mail. It says \"no new messages.\" So you check it again. 17. Your phone bill comes to your doorstep in a box. 18. You don't know what gender three of your closest friends are, because they have neutral screennames and you never bothered to ask. 19. You move into a new house and decide to Netscape before you landscape. 20. You tell the cap driver you live at http://1000.edison.garden/house/brick.html 21. You start tilting your head sideways to smile."}, {"response": 9, "author": "IF", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (04:26)", "body": "Alright, now here is a true story of my own. About two and a half years ago, summer '95, I went on a school trip with my year. We went for a weekend in Kerry and everyone was excited, including me. Well, one night after dinner we were all left to our own pursuits because the teachers were in the other part of the dinnning room. The staff of the hotel had sealed of our half of the room and we were left to ourselves. Now being the person that I am, I had to go and do something stupid. I was swinging on my chair (which to begin with was not very sturdy) singing with my friends and holding a glass of over dilouted orange. Then it happened. The chair I had been swinging on finally gave way and plummeted to the ground with me on it! Everyone started laughing and me who would have laughed along with, but in this case I did'nt. Instead I was near crying because I realised I had broken the chair annd that I would now be kill d by the teachers. The teachers then came in to see what was all the noise about. Everyone was dissmised except for me and my three best friends who were sitting close to me. My friends stuck up for me and said I had not been swinging on the chair and that the chair gave way beneath for no reasonat all. The teacher accepted this story, though not wihout some doubts and I got away scott free. Now when everyone on that trip talks about Kerry the first thing they remember was me breaking the chair."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (14:00)", "body": "This story is perhaps better suited for Ripley's Believe It Or Not ..... In January, when my father was seriously ill, he was placed in the critical care unit (CCU) at the hospital. Visitation is very limited and everyone waits in the CCU waiting room for the 15 minutes every 3-4 hours that visitation is allowed. After visit ing my father and feeling rather blue (because he clearly wasn't going to make it) I couldn't bear to go back to the crowded CCU waiting room. I went down the hall to the surgical waiting room, found it was nearly empty, and sat down to quietly cry while pretending to read a magazine. The pay telephone on the wall next to me rang. I answered it, expecting to next call out the name of someone in the waiting room. Imagine my surprise when it was my friend Wayne (known him for years and years--he was in o ur wedding). \"Wayne\", I said, \"How on earth did you find me----I'm not even in the right waiting room!\" \"What are you talking about?\" he asked. I explained how impressed I was that he had found me, the pay phone number, everything even though I was in ddifferent waiting room. \"Wait a minute\", he said. \"Aren't you at home?\" \"Come on, Wayne---you must know where I am---after all you did call me!\" It turned out that he thought he had called my house, that he had for some reason dialed the absolutely wrong number, and found me next to that pay phone in the hospital. We were stunned! Surely this could not have been divine intervention---Wayne is basically a heathen. ;-) No-one believes this story and I really can't blame them---I was involved in it a d now 2 months later I scarcely believe it myself!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "mich", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:08)", "body": "Kali, you might like this one. Bill Gates dies in a car accident. He finds himself in purgatory, being sized up by St. Peter. \"Well, Bill, I'm really confused on this call; I'm not sure where to send you. After all, you helped society enormously by putting a computer in almost every home in America, yet you also created that ghastly Windows'95. I'm going to do something I've nev er done before. In your case, I'm going to let you decide whether you want to go to Heaven or Hell.\" Bill replied, \"Well, what's the difference between the two?\" St. Peter: \"I'm willing to let you visit both places briefly, if it will help Your decision.\" Bill: \"Fine, but where should I go first?\" St. Peter: \"I'll leave that up to you.\" \"Okay then,\" said Bill, \"Let's try Hell first.\" So Bill went to Hell. It was a beautiful clean, sandy beach with clear waters and lots of bikini-clad women running around, playing in the Water, laughing, and frolicking about. The sun was shining; the temperature was perfect. Bill was very pleased. \"This is great!\" he told St. Peter. \"If this is hell, I REALLY want to see heaven!\" \"Fine,\" said St. Peter, and off they went. Heaven was a place high in the clouds, with angels drifting about, playing harps and singing. It was nice, but not as enticing as Hell. Bill thought for a minute, and rendered his decision. \"Hmmm. I think I'd prefer Hell,\" he told St. Peter. \"Fine,\" retorted St. Peter, \"as you desire.\" So Bill Gates went to Hell. Two weeks later, St. Peter decided to check on the late billionaire to see how he was doing in Hell. When he got there, he found Bill, shackled to a wall, screaming amongst hot flames in dark caves, being burned and tortured by demons. \"How's everything g oi Bill responded, with his voice filled with anguish and disappointment, \"This is awful! This is nothing like the Hell I visited two weeks ago! I can't believe this is happening! What happened to that other place, with the beautiful beaches, the scantily-Cl ad women playing in the water?\" \"That was a demo,\" replied St. Peter."}, {"response": 12, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:10)", "body": "Margaret, I believe. What a blessing to get an unexpected call at such a time in such a way! How is your father, by the way?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (21:15)", "body": "Katy, thank you for believing. My father died a week later. He was so very ill and in so much pain that it was/is a blessing to believe he has gone to a better place."}, {"response": 14, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (22:27)", "body": "Margaret - I am sorry about your dad - but twice as happy for your unexpected call!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (22:35)", "body": "Here is my funny story - an old one but still funny and embarassing when it happens. My daughter and I have some of our best conversations on the phone in the hour between the time she gets home for school and the time I leave work. She called me yesterday while I was meeting with a co-worker, and I asked her to call back in a few minute s. Two minutes after he left my office, the phone and I WAS SO SURE (!!) it was her I answered: \"Hello, sweetheart\" in my best motherly croon. Of course, it was my co-worker. He gasped, sputtered, laughed and said 'You just made my day!\""}, {"response": 16, "author": "Becks", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (22:42)", "body": "Okay, this is more embarassing than funny. A week ago, I was at uni walking down the hall, when we saw this gorgeous man walking down the hall, that did not look like a student at all. I couldn't help but gawk, and my girlfriends dared me to whistle at him. Being the idiot that I am, I did, and he turned around smiled, and continued walking. I walked into class a couple of hours later and our prof announced that we had editors from different mags to look at our work. So I sat down at this table with my group, and was face-to-face with the man I whistled at! He said \"Hi,\" as I turned bright crimson."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (22:50)", "body": "Oh, Lizzia!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:57)", "body": "Surely this could not have been divine intervention. Think again, Margaret -- definitely BELIEVE. My sincere sympathies on the loss of your father. I lost my mother a year and a half ago under similar circumstances. Becks, how embarrassing! Funny how seemingly innocent things come back to haunt you."}, {"response": 19, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (07:51)", "body": "So Rebecca, what happened next???"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:14)", "body": "Surely this could not have been divine intervention. Think again, Margaret -- definitely BELIEVE. Oh, Susan, if only you knew Wayne. At his annual Halloween party he always dresses as the devil because it so suits his personality! He has been known to say outrageous things to near strangers (such as 'So, what have you been doing since your parole he aring?', just trying to get an amusing reaction. But, then again, I've always heard that God works in mysterious ways---but never suspected that He had a sense of humor! :-)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:43)", "body": "Margaret: But, then again, I've always heard that God works in mysterious ways---but never suspected that He had a sense of humor! :-) Oh honey, count on it! Just look around!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Becks", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (13:23)", "body": "We'll Kate, I said \"Hi\" back, and that's about it, but my girlfriends burst out laughing, and he turned bright red. At the end of the meeting he said \"Nice meeting you,\" but I didn't have the balls to continue the conversation."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (13:29)", "body": "Rebecca, he could have been your personal Darcy! In future, please think of Lizzy as your role model in these trying situations. ;}"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (15:36)", "body": "o o o o o o> o o> o .|. \\|. \\|/ // X \\ | \\ x | /\\ >\\ / \\ / \\ / \\ / \\ / o o o o o ) |= >\\ / \\ >> | \">"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (16:27)", "body": "*groan* ;-p"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (16:33)", "body": "Cheryl, are you still here? Come to Pemberley if you can."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:32)", "body": "#24 Amy, Heaven forfend!!!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Becks", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (22:56)", "body": "Mari, I will meet him again. He is coming to our wrap party for the magazine."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (23:09)", "body": "Received in E-mail today - enjoy! --Seinfeldisms... What's with the people who put carpeting on the lid of their toilet seat? What are they thinking -- \"Gosh, if we have a party there may not be enough standing room; I'd better carpet the toilet too.\" What's with this weird hotel custom of leaving a piece of chocolate on the pillow? I awoke thinking my brain had hemorrhaged some sort of fecal matter. Did you ever notice, when you are sitting at a red light, that when the person in front of you pulls up a couple of inches, you are compelled to move up too? Do we really think we are making progress toward our destination? \"Whew, I thought we would be late, but now that I am nine inches closer, I can stop for coffee and a danish!\" Have you ever noticed that the waiter who takes your order is not the one who brings your food anymore? What is THAT about? And which waiter are you tipping, anyway? I think next time I go to a restaurant I'll just say, \"Oh, sorry, I only eat the food. The guy who pays the bill will be along shortly.\" Would somebody please explain to me those signs that say, \"No animals allowed except for Seeing Eye Dogs?\" Who is that sign for? Is it for the dog, or the blind person? Why do people give each other flowers? To celebrate various important occasions, they're killing living creatures? Why restrict it to plants? \"Sweetheart, let's make up. Have this deceased squirrel.\" Can't we just get rid of wine lists? Do we really have to be reminded every time we go out to a nice restaurant that we have no idea what we are doing? Why don't they just give us a trigonometry quiz with the menu? If airline seat cushions are such great flotation devices, why don't you ever see anyone take one to the beach? Why do they call it a \"building\"? It looks like they're finished. Why isn't it a \"built\"? Why is it when you turn on the TV you see ads for telephone companies, and when you turn on the radio you hear ads for TV shows, and when you get put on hold on the phone you hear a radio station? Why is it illegal to park in a handicapped parking space but okay to go the bathroom in a handicapped stall? How come you have to pay someone to rotate your tires? Isn't that the basic idea behind the wheel? Don't they rotate on their own? All the king's HORSES and all the king's men? Are you kidding me? No wonder they couldn't put Humpty together again. Just what did those idiots expect the horses to do, anyway? Isn't it weird that we drink milk, stuff designed to nourish baby cows? How did THAT happen? Did some cattleman once say, \"Oh, man, I can't wait till them calves are done so I can get ME a hit of that stuff.\" Have you ever noticed how they keep improving your laundry detergent, but they still can't get those blue flakes out? Why do we trust them to get our clothes clean? These guys can't even get the DETERGENT white! Did you see these new minivan ads? All they talk about are cup holders, kiddie seats and doors. What kind of advertising is that? When you see an ad for a suit, do they say, \"And look at the zipper! Carefully hidden, but easily accessible when you need it!\" I think not."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (02:02)", "body": "Seinfeld Rules!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (12:02)", "body": "Rebecca, here is some advice for your wrap party, from Jane Austen herself; .. turn to him with an arch smile, and say, ``You mean to frighten me, by coming in all this state to hear me? But I will not be alarmed; there is a stubbornness about me that never can bear to be frightened at the will of others. My courage always rises with every attempt to intimidate me.'' and also... I am particularly unlucky in meeting with a person so well able to expose my real character, in a part of the world where I had hoped to pass myself off with some degree of credit. With such expert advice, how can you fail? When is the wrap party? I expect a full report, complete with all drooling and smirking possibilites italicised or bolded. Sincerely, Auntie Mari"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (15:44)", "body": "Wow! Good advice, Mari. And of course I will give you a full report my dearest (other) Auntie. (Cheryl is my first Auntie)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (21:42)", "body": "Here are some of Moe's replies to Bart Simpson's crank calls. Hey, everybody, I.P. Freeley! Hey, guys, I'm lookin' for a Jacques Strap. Is there an Al Coholic here? Call for Oliver Kloushoff. I wanna Seymour Butts. C'mon, one o' you guys has gotta be Homer Sexual. Hey, has anybody seen Mike Rotch lately? Somebody check the men's room for a Hugh Jass! Come on guys, do I have a Bea O'Problem here? Why can't I find Amanda Hugginkiss? Hey, everybody, put down your glasses. Ivana Tinkle! Aw, settle down. Anita Bath here? All right, fine, fine. Maya Butreeks?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (11:37)", "body": ""}, {"response": 35, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (11:40)", "body": "From: Bruce Guthrie @ nmaa.org Subject: This explains it all! Cultural Differences Explained ============================== Aussies: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad. Canadians: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans when abroad. Americans: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad. Brits: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad. Aussies: Believe you should look out for your mates. Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong to your club. Americans: Believe that people should look out for & take care of themselves. Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job. Aussies: Are extremely patriotic to their beer. Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic to the point of blindness. Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can be bothered to sing them. Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the anthem. Americans: Spend most of their lives glued to the idiot box. Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more American channels. Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels. Aussies: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there watches, to Britain, where everybody loves them. Americans: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, and basketball. Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby. Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball. Aussies: Will jabber on incessantly about how they beat the Poms in every sport they play them in. Americans: Spell words differently, but still call it \"English\". Brits: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it \"English\". Canadians: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans. Aussies: Add \"G'day\", \"mate\" and a heavy accent to everything they say in an attempt to get laid. Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an island. Aussies: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an island. Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor in a backwards country. Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor in a backwards country. Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer. Canadians: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer. Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss. Aussies: Drink anything with alcohol in it. Americans: Seem to think that poverty & failure are morally suspect. Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect. Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success, and failure are inherited things. Aussies: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beers."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (13:21)", "body": "HC, your topical and timely contributions continue to slay me -- thanks so much for sharing!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (18:07)", "body": "LOL - especially the beery tasting piss"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (23:16)", "body": "Thanks, HC. LOL, especially at: Aussies: Add \"G'day\", \"mate\" and a heavy accent to everything they say in an attempt to get laid. Works for me!;-)"}, {"response": 39, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (19:25)", "body": "Haven't laughs like this for a while....great! HC Love your input"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (09:18)", "body": "On HC\ufffds site, there is a section under \"Jane Austen Jokes\" called \"The Jane Austen Top Ten Song List.\" Some of the tunes include \"Lord, It's Hard to be Humble\" (Darcy), and \"How Do You Solve a Problem like Maria?\" (Sir Thomas and Lady Bertram). Here\ufffds my own contribution: I Got Plenty of Nuthin\ufffd--the Bennet girls I Cain\ufffdt Say No--Lydia Bennet There\ufffds No Business Like Show Business--Henry & Mary Crawford, Maria & Tom Bertram, Mr. Rushworth and Mr. Yates I Love a Piano--Jane Fairfax, Mary Bennet Change Partners--Harriet Smith Isn\ufffdt This a Lovely Day to be Caught in the Rain--Mrs. Bennet to Jane Lazy--Lady Bertram I Won\ufffdt Dance--Darcy, Lizzy (at different times) I\ufffdve Got My Eyes on You--Mr.Knightley to Emma Love For Sale--Mrs. Bennet My Heart Belongs to Daddy--Emma Woodhouse I\ufffdm Afraid I Love You--Darcy An Armful of You--Willoughby Nobody\ufffds Chasing Me--Caroline Bingley Glad to Be Unhappy--Marianne Dashwood I\ufffdve Got a Crush on You--Harriet Smith Ask Me Again--Lizzy, post-Pemberley Where Are the Men?--Kitty & Lydia Bennet Bidin\ufffd My Time--Frank Churchill Take My Mother Home--Jane and Elizabeth Bennet The Gentleman is a Dope--Maria Bertram re Mr. Rushworth There\ufffds No Cure Like Travel--Elizabeth Bennet Love Me, Love My Pekinese--Lady Bertram On And On And On--Miss Bates Why Am I So Gone About That Gal--Darcy Memories--Mrs. Musgrove Medley: There is Nothing Like a Dame, There\ufffdll Always Be a Lady Fair, Falling Out of Love Can Be Fun, Just One of Those Things, So Long It\ufffds Been Good to Know You--Willoughby, Wickham, William Elliott, Henry Crawford"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (09:25)", "body": "ROFLOL!!! Capital, Anne3, Capital!!!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (10:59)", "body": "Anne3, perfect!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:04)", "body": "Wondrful, Anne3!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "Oh Anne! What a hoot! SNORT!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:19)", "body": "ROTFLOL Anne - It's very, very clever and definitely needs to be posted right along with the others on HC's site!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:42)", "body": "Water and field fowl hunters take note: Appropos this cloning business, the Scots have managed to breed a hunting dog with an African Hyena. Hunting dogs will be able to point and laugh at their targets at the same time."}, {"response": 47, "author": "candace", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (20:32)", "body": "What about this song for Mr. Darcy: \"Take me to the River, Drop me in the water, washing me down, washing me down...tease me, please me.\""}, {"response": 48, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (23:18)", "body": "But Candace, Darcy is certainly much more than a mere Talking Head! (sorry, couldn't resist.)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (05:02)", "body": "Carl, you ROTFLOLANed that coffee... Thanks, Mich...have I shared my \"3 Most Powerful Men and Armageddon\" joke?"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (08:14)", "body": "Don't know if anyone is ready for this one, but for the following bit of doggerel it helps to know that my last name is pronounced \"freeze'-em-a\". Were my daughter to marry the grandson of Issac Asimov, her name would be (drum roll...): Kathryn Rachel Friesema-Asimov. P.S. A good friend of mine related this to Mr Asimov in the late 80's at a function of the Space Studies Institute (Princeton, N.J.), to which the three of us belong as senior associates. He reported that Mr Asimov chuckled in amusement."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (08:31)", "body": "But should you really wish to do that to your daughter, sir? What do you do, Bill?"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:52)", "body": "I having lot of fun working solo out of my home as a software developer (have been programming for about 25 years). Came to U.S. as a very young one from the Netherlands. Have a heavy background in physics and meteorology. I currently am developing programs for the railroad industry. Love reading, chess, astronomy, music, wilderness canoeing (I've been going up to Canada every year since 1980), and running. And to answer your question: No, I do not wish the connection. Best she should first secure her education before reviewing prospects."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:15)", "body": "Carl, I loved your dog, and Anne3 lots of laughing on your list from Plenty of nutting to I wont dance...May I suggest 'I could have danced all night' ,Mr Collins 'Tonight'(West side story) Darcy after music evening at Pemb. 'Do you miss me tonight?', Captain Wentworth 'Like a bridge over troubled water', Colonel Brandon 'Mother'(J Lennon), Anne De Bourgh"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Mari", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:55)", "body": "Welcome Bill. Re; your wildnerness canoeing; I've been to the Quetico several times, always thru an outfitter in Ely; my hubby goes every year with a group of friends (we live in Wisconsin, Milwaukee metro area). Where do you enter the park?"}, {"response": 55, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:58)", "body": "Oh, canoeing might be a fun summer gathering for our cult."}, {"response": 56, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:10)", "body": "Hi Mari, Mostly we enter Quetico thru Atikokan; but have entered several times thru Beaver House Lake, French Lake, and Cache Bay. We outfit ourselves and go very light, single portaging all the way for a week. I have an 18 foot Wenonah Sundowner, Kevlar, that weighs 44 pounds. Do a lot of fishing, skinning dipping, and my latest hobby: bread baking. I make an oven using flat stones. Sour dough is my specialty. Nothing tastes better than a fresh loaf in the pine scented air. Alice Lake and an island in Mackenzie B y are two of my favorite campsites in the Park. Last summer we passed within 200 yards of a raging forest fire on Bud Lake, which we had seen started by lightning a few days earlier. Quite exciting: very loud and I never saw so many different colors of smoke. Fire was leaping through the trees a hundred feet at a time. An island right next to us went up in flames. The hot air rose so fast that cooler air rushes in to the fire at lake level and whipped up the waves nicely for us. After we passed the infern , we just sat in our canoes for about 20 minutes and took it all in. Unforgettable. Any where do you go in the Park? Any favorite memories?"}, {"response": 57, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (19:19)", "body": "Kali, pls share your 3 Most Powerful Men and Armageddon."}, {"response": 58, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (09:43)", "body": "Another copy writer bites the dust: I was listening to the radio with half an ear yesterday and heard: \"How to protect your children from Pepsi, Burger King, and the top hits of the day!\" Believing that I had tuned in a very conservative religious broadcast, I listened more carefully for a few minutes, but the station immediately began playing a Morissette song. so I mused on what I had heard until I realized that when the message left the copy writers desk it must have looked something like this (blue italics are my guesses): send for the booklet \"How to Protect Your Children\" from (meaning brought to you by) Pepsi, Burger King, and the Top Hits of the Day!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (11:07)", "body": "My favorite radio blooper (courtesy of that delightful little book: 'Anguished English': \"Tune in next week for another series of classical music programs with the Canadian Broadcorping Castration\"."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (16:54)", "body": "I saw a headline a few years back during the silicon implant scare which read: Breast Implants Siezed Can you picture it?"}, {"response": 61, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:58)", "body": "Here's another one from Anguished English, from a history essay: Ferdinand Magellan - the man who circumcised the globe with his giant clipper."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (20:41)", "body": "That's definitly something Mrs Malaprop would say!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "candace", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (02:24)", "body": "Just heard this, liked it, and thought you would too: \"Women are like tea bags -- put them in hot water and they just get stronger\""}, {"response": 64, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (23:21)", "body": "I am woman -- hear me roar.... austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 210, "subject": "Anne Elliot: Beyond Gender Politics", "response_count": 107, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (11:13)", "body": "This is a very thoughtful argument, Hilary. I agree with you that Lizzy _is_ in danger of becoming totally disillusioned with men after Wickham's snap engagement to Mary King and Mr. Darcy's odious first proposal, not to mention Mr. Collins'. I think Anne Eliot does possess something of a feminist spirit, if you will: yes, she is disappointed in love, and this starts to wear on her spirits; however, when the time comes to take action -- as when she completely takes control after Louisa's fall -- she's ore effective than any man present, even Wentworth. And I don't think there's anything wrong with her sticking to her guns and not abandoning her one true love for just anyone else who comes along. In her own way, she's a quiet tower of strength."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (11:44)", "body": "I have, for some time now, felt that I liked Persuasion better than any other of JA's novels. I think it is her most mature and (though Henry Churchyard has prooved me wrong) I like to think Anne and Jane have many similarirties. I find it diffilcult at times to see any of our heriones in a completely modern way and have respect for those who can. I feel there are so many other strictures placed upon them that it is sometimes difficult to judge them in modern terms. They live in a male dominated so iety. They live in a time when you obeyed your elders out of respect, no matter what. The actions our heriones take cannot be judged harshly in terms of gender politics by those of us who have had freedoms these women might never understand. Anne obeyed her father and listened to Lady Russell's advice because that was the way things were done. I don't know if she would have had the strength of character at that young age anyway to do what she did at 26, which in a way, was scandalous. I admire Anne so much. Her integrity is impeachable. She is certainly not as dynamic as Lizzie but has a calmness about her that Lizzie will never know (pardon my tense here). I look at what these women did to guarantee their own happiness in the context of the time they lived in and their situations and cannot help but admire their strength as women , this is what makes them heros (humans?). Think of how young women of that time in similar situations who read about them felt. I don't like to comple ely buy into feminism in modern terms (glass ceiling and all that), but am grateful that I have freedoms . There are times I wish that things would turn out for me as they did for Anne, but I am glad I have opportunites. The fact that so many people react as we all do to JA's characters proves that their herosim does transcend gender politics and time, if they were insipid we wouldn't give them any time at all."}, {"response": 3, "author": "bplaroch", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (13:31)", "body": "Lizzie is my favourite JA character, but there is much that I admire in Anne as well, and in many ways it is much more remarkable that she stuck to her principles than that Lizzie did. Elizabeth is in the position of strength of having a beloved sister as a confidante and also enjoys her farther's true regard and affection (she is his favourite). Although her mother and other sisters are annoying, I don't think there is any evidence of animosity coming from them. In fact, Mrs. Bennet is really only loo ing out for her girls' best interests, how ever inappropriately she goes about it! Who does Anne have to look out for her? Her father and Elizabeth completely disregard her feelings and usually her presence and Mary is constantly insulting her. The one person on her side, Lady Russell, nearly ruined her life by talking her out of marrying Wentworth. When Charles Musgrove proposed, it certainly must have been more difficult for her to say no than it was for Lizzie to say no to Mr. Collins !"}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:39)", "body": "Lizzie is also my favorite, due to her liveliness and great wit. I could argue though, that Mrs. Bennet seems almost jealous of Lizzy at times -- she is downright resentful when Lizzy refuses to marry Mr. Collins, threatens to never see her again, etc. We could also argue that Caroline Bingley, Lady C. and Mrs. Hurst bear Lizzy a great deal of animosity, since they pick up on Darcy's affection for her. However, Lizzy's immediate family circle is certainly not as cold as the Eliot's. And Anne does seem more mature -- she's about six years older, right? I agree there is a depth & a maturity to Austen's last novel which makes it my 2nd favorite. And you have to think that it DID mirror JA's life in some way -- the Lefroy incident; her never being married, etc. If JA DIDN'T experience lost hopes in love, she's an even greater writer than we think!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (16:15)", "body": "I agree with all the arguments above. Lizzie is my favorite character, also, but Anne runs a very close second. I've always seen a quiet strength in her that doesn't ask for recognition from anybody around her (and she certainly doesn't get it!) - I find even Lady Russell rather too cold and manipulative to be a good influence for Anne. I always admire the way she remains the same, calm, reasonable creature she is considering her terrible family. The only people who would be good for her--and I think n her own way she recognizes this during the story--are the Crofts. Amy 2 - you say that you think Mrs. B was a little jealous of Lizzie. I don't think she was. But she was jealous of anybody who would have a daughter married before one of hers - i.e., the Lucases. According to her, it was a race among the mothers of all the marriageable daughters in Meryton, where the daughters had very little to say in the matter (according to her!!)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (16:51)", "body": "If JA DIDN'T experience lost hopes in love, she's an even greater writer than we think! Great point! Wouldn't you love to know about her \"dissappointments\"? Ocassionally I have thought about having a conversation with JA. I think she would not answer my questions regarding her personal life. She would be appalled at my boldness. Even if we became friends. I don't think she really told Cassandra everything. Rebecca: Jane was her confidante in P&P2 but not so much in the book. I really think Lizzie was lonely when at home. You cannot tell you father (even today) about your disappoinment in love (o.k., some of us can)."}, {"response": 7, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (17:13)", "body": "When I was all alone with my JA obsession (ie: before P&P2 and austen-l and the P&P2 support group), Persuasion was my favorite of six well loved books. Sometimes I think P&P and Persuasion are at opposite ends of a picture of life. P&P is about what life can be - youthful and joyful and determined and optimistic. Persuasion is about coping with life when it is less than it can be. Anne 'coped' while I was learning to cope. She coped gracefully while I fussed and fretted. Besides, JA told me in chapter one that Anne would always be valued by people of 'real understanding'. Since I wanted to be in the group, how could I do less than value Anne?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (18:27)", "body": "Wow, what a rich topic. Thank you Hil. There is so much here, I can only chip away at it in little pieces: Elizabeth's sparkle, wit, confidence, humour, forthrightness, and refusal to bow to convention for convention's sake, especially in matters of the heart, make her irresistably modern and attractive. __ Yes. I wonder if the character was received well when the story was first published. Or has this kind of courage always been heartwarming to women readers?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (19:19)", "body": "I've always liked Anne Elliot too. I particularly liked the way she stood up to her father and insisted on seeing her friend, Mrs Smith. She's certainly not lively or fiery like a Lizzy or even an Emma, but she possesses strength of mind and strong principles. One of the things I like about the book is that we see her become even more strong and assertive throughout the novel:the trip to Lyme and her level-headness and calmness of manner when Louisa is hurt. The Captain's notable line: \"no one so proper, o capable as Anne!\" By the end, you really are rooting for the two to find their way back to each other. She deserves happiness."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (19:23)", "body": "Could the differences in ages of the two heroines be a factor to consider? Especially if we are discussing the differences of Elizabeth and Anne's strength of character. Lizzy is not yet 21, had never been truely in love and of a more dominanting, playful character perhaps typical of a present-day teenager with still a lot to learn in life but thinking herself already sufficiently matured because of a bunch of idle sisters to compare with and her father's obvious prejudice in her favour (Jane excepting). Anne is (if I recall correctly) already 27. When she was first in love (at about Lizzy's age with Wentworht) was perhaps a less confident lady as a result of the lack of attention at home, (her frivously self-centered family) no friend that was mentioned except Lady Russel who has always been like a mother to her. I do dearly love both heroines and appreciate their differences."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:19)", "body": "Amy2: 'And I don't think there's anything wrong with her sticking to her guns and not abandoning her one true love for just anyone else who comes along.' Neither do I. Dina: The question of regarding these heroines through modern eyes is interesting, and for me, shifts around all the time. I too would not swap my freedoms. Certainly life for women had so many more strictures. Does that make achievement of happiness more difficult? Probably. Then again, people are often more comfortable with the security of knowing the 'way things are, and are done'(at least you know what you are bucking when you want to buck the system!), and one often hears people grumbling that that i what is missing in society today. Maybe its one more arguement for appreciating the way the heroines deal with their lot, rather than trying to weigh up whose lot is worse. 'I really think Lizzie was lonely when at home.' She, and Anne, and Jane would have taken to the net like ducks to water! Inko: Love those Crofts! They are like Mr. And Mrs Gardiner, don't you think? Katy: Sometimes I think P&P and Persuasion are at opposite ends of a picture of life. P&P is about what life can be - youthful and joyful and determined and optimistic. Persuasion is about coping with life when it is less than it can be. I agree. I would have fussed and fretted too, Katy. Amy: I wonder if the character was received well when the story was first published. Or has this kind of courage always been heartwarming to women readers? I would have assumed it was, but its an interesting question, too. Maybe HC can shed some light on how 'Persuasion' was recieved at the time. Cassandra: 'She deserves happiness.' Indeed. That is the reason I didn't mind Wentworth's public announcement of their engagement in the film. For once Anne was acknowledged properly, even if all the prawns didn't have the sense to understand why!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:18)", "body": "Katy: Besides, JA told me in chapter one that Anne would always be valued by people of 'real understanding'. Since I wanted to be in the group, how could I do less than value Anne? Reminds me of a line from Jane Austen's Frederic & Elfrida , where a certain poem engraved on a tombstone is described in the following terms: ``These sweet lines, as pathetic as beautifull, were never read by any one who passed that way, without a shower of tears, which if they should fail of exciting in you, Reader, your mind must be unworthy to peruse them.'' (This is pretty funny in context -- see http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/fredelfr.html .) Amy: Elizabeth's sparkle, wit, confidence, humour, forthrightness, and refusal to bow to convention for convention's sake, especially in matters of the heart, make her irresistably modern and attractive. __ Yes. I wonder if the character was received well when the story was first published. Or has this kind of courage always been heartwarming to women readers? Yes, I think that the early reaction to Lizzy, what there is of it that has survived (remeber that Pride and Prejudice was not a blockbuster runaway smash) was mostly positive. But one lady did comment something to the effect that Lizzy was insufferably pert and ill-bred. (I don't remember anything more about this -- it was probably in Southam's book, as would be a lot of the other contemporary reviews and reactions; see http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/austfbib.html#fbibl415 .)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (21:20)", "body": "Oops -- Frederic and Elfrida is actually at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/fredelfr.html ."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (03:04)", "body": "I agree with you, Barbara...Lizzy was in a situation of power, where she was loved and respected, even if by imperfect people. She had enough presence of mind and a strong enough influence on the household to assure that she would never be encroached upon, intentionally or unintentionally, but those she lived with. Anne's not a pushover, as Cassandra states, but she wasn't mature enough to understand her own heart when she was young (Lizzy is hyperbolically mature and lucky for a twenty year-old, and in this respect, naturally makes Anne more realistic and believable), nor was she allowed the time and space to develop Lizzy's independent resoluteness. I'm sure it's the familial context...Anne's father, Sir Walter, and her sisters Elizabeth and Mary (the hypochondriac!) are all hideously alike in that they are excessive and spoiled...there is no other \"sensible\" sister to back her up (be it a Jane or a Lizzy...Anne could stand in for either), and no \"sensible\" parent to blunt the tendecies of the flightier one. And Lady Russell, well-meaning as she may be, obviously didn't understand Anne or her situation. Somehow, Anne is relegated quietly to the background in her family (by nature, situation, or both), lost in the useless shuffle of a houseful of selfish individuals...kinda like Fanny. Forgotten, neglected, and even directly put down, she becomes, like Fanny (and Lizzy too!), an observer of folly. As she is personally separated from that behavior, she doesn't develop it herself, but she witnesses quite enough of it to understand what morality and propriety are. In Fanny's situation, the correlation bet een her treatment and temperament is a bit easier to understand, as she's a poor relation - an interloper - with at least one distinct enemy in the house, but I think the situations are similar enough to show that habit on both sides of the insensitive treatment is cyclical and ingrained. People got used to dumping on them."}, {"response": 15, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (11:11)", "body": "The other factor that makes Anne differ from Lizzie is household wealth. Even though Sir Walter is a spendthrift and they all have to remand to Bath, she still comes from a higher social strata where someone like Elizabeth carries on like a Princess of the realm. Not an option for any of the Bennet girls. . ."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (12:17)", "body": "Amy: I wonder if the character was received well when the story was first published. Or has this kind of courage always been heartwarming to women readers? In the foreword to my copy of _Mansfield Park_ there is a discussion of how, when MP first came out they was a great disappointment in the book. People were quoted as saying ''Where has the author of P&P gone?'' The biggest beef was about the difference in the characters in the two books. It would seem that even then, men and women appreciated strength in a woman, because Lizzy was much prefered to Fanny. Sorry I am that I am at work and cannot quote you from the text, but that is the gist of it."}, {"response": 17, "author": "churchh", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (12:30)", "body": "Mari, it would seem your preface-writer is exaggerating the uniformity of the reaction a little bit... See http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/opmansfp.html"}, {"response": 18, "author": "bplaroch", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (14:34)", "body": "The introduction in my Penguin classics edition of Persuasion has some interesting notes which draw another parallel between Anne and Lizzy. It suggests that in the cancelled chapter, Austen was dissatisfied in the way that Anne and Wentworth were reunited because Anne was too passive. She had been responsible for throwing away her own happiness, so to speak, by breaking up with the Captain, and to set things right she needed to be instrumental in their reconcilliation. Although her speech to Harville w s not intended to convince Wentworth to come back to her, she had gone as far as it was socially acceptable to go in letting her true feelings for him be understood, without, in effect, openly declaring that she still loved him. This is similar to Lizzy's situation. She, too, has been responsible for seemingly missing a chance at happiness by being prejudiced against Darcy and rejecting his proposal (although he deserved it!) She must also be instrumental in their reconcilliation because she was partly responsible for their separation. Darcy has already done his part at Pemberley by showing, through every civil/Wickahm situation. Lizzy does her part through her speech to Lady Catherine when she comes to Longbourne (sp?). Like Anne's speech to Harville, Lizzy's words to Lady Catherine are not intended to bring Darcy back to her, but are about as far as she can go without going to Darcy herself and telling him she loves him."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (14:57)", "body": "'but she wasn't mature enough to understand her own heart when she was young' Kali, I think she does, (more than Lizzy, whose maturity we see developing throughout P&P). Thats what made bowing to Lady Russel's advice even harder."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (21:23)", "body": "Hil said in her intro: I always feel that at this point Lizzy is at a crossroads. If events didn't happen to unfold as JA tells them, and Lizzy had had her fill of rocks and mountains, and returned to life with her family, there is a good chance she could have become bitter towards society and men, and followed in her father's footsteps, seeking entertainment and survival in irony. Do you think this is how JA herself survived? How some of us here survive?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (21:44)", "body": "Amy said: Do you think this is how JA herself survived? Yes, Amy, but she put her irony and view of society into her books not only for her own entertainment but for ours -- 200 years later!!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (22:20)", "body": "Hilary, you're right - it was very difficult for Anne to give Frederick up - however, she did it in the mind that it would be better for both of them to separate. She was honestly persuaded to believe that her love was wrong, and that the match would end in failure - that it would be a mistake, and that she and Wentworth would both live to regret it. She was persuaded to believe that she would eventually get over it and move on to bigger and better things...and then never did. Her first, hasty impulse to marry the man had been right. Unlike Lizzy, Anne knew the truth but failed to properly recognize or understand it...whereas Lizzy, had she known the truth from the beginning, would have never erred on the side of prejudice. Lizzy's faults of understanding lie in circumstance, while nineteen-year-old Anne's lie in her own inability to properly assess her situation and the validity of her feelings (immaturity). Does that make sense?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (22:42)", "body": "There are things about engagements in JA's times that I do not understand but which I assume would help us understand why Anne and Wentworth did not just settle into a long informal engagement as young people would today The conversation in bath between Mrs. Croft and Mrs. Musgrove deploring long engagements (as unsafe?? why??) and Capt. Benwick's situation seem to argue that one should not enter into an engagement until one is in a position to marry soon. I would appreciate any enlightenment anyone can shed on this."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:02)", "body": "I'm obviously no expert in engagements in general, let alone nineteenth-century ones, but it seems to me that the understanding that came with an engagement (those that are officially blessed, at least) was almost as sacred as marriage itself. I know that puritan marriages, for example, were essentially legally-binding, verbal contracts - in this light, aren't engagements merely verbal marriage contracts? Anyhow, it would seem that the reasons for preventing or breaking off an engagement would be the s me as those for preventing or severing an actual marriage."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:26)", "body": "Jane Austen sister Cassandra was engaged to Tom Fowle for a year or more. He was a private chaplain to Lord Craven. He wanted to have income to support their furture family. He died from fever in 1797 in San Domingo, Cassandra never married."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "Kali - \" Lizzy's faults of understanding lie in circumstance, while nineteen-year-old Anne's lie in her own inability to properly assess her situation and the validity of her feelings (immaturity).\" I think Anne did assess the situtaion but from lady's Russell's view and probably from the view of society's concensus at the time. Wentworth still had his fortune to make and the fact that Darcy had 10K meant that Lizzy only needed to think about their competibility - of course attraction was another story. Since a man was expected to have sufficient finances to support the marital state , Anne had 'valid' reasons to give heed to Lady's Russels advise, being the one person closest to her. He had come back rich from after the war and her regret was profound - she abandoned him for the wrong reasons, acceptable as it was to the practical minded. Though I'm not suggesting that Anne or Lizzy were materialistic. It just worked out that way. What do you think??"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "Thanks for the topic Hilary and everyone else's posts! I too love Anne Elliot but Elizabeth is my favorite. Just a few comments. I don't think Lizzy is in danger of becoming too cynical. She, like all of us, gets down but she boucnes back. For instance after finding out Wickham is not at the Netherfield Ball, JA says \"But Elizabeth was not formed for ill-humour; and though every prospect of her own was destroyed for the evening, it could not dwell long on her spirits; and having told all her grie s to Charlotte Lucas, whom she had not seen for a week, she was soon able to make a voluntary transition to the oddities of her cousin...\" Also when Lizzy is talking with her Aunt Gardiner regarding the (then) Jane/Bingley mishap, Mrs. Gardiner says, Poor Jane! I am sorry for her, because, with her disposition, she may not get over it immediately. It had better have happened to you, Lizzy; you would have laughed yourself out of it sooner. In addition to having this pleasant disposition, El zabeth also has family members (Jane, Mr. Bennet) who love and cherish her. Conversely, Anne has no one. I know Lady Russell is supposed to care for her but as I have been re-reading Persuasion I am becoming less convinced of Lady R.'s concern for Anne. For Lady R. to make two critical mistakes in judgement regarding Anne's welfare (Wentworth and Mr. Elliot) doesn't sit well with me. She also urged the family to go to Bath, with full knowledge that Anne really disliked Bath. I simply cannot imagine someone who loves you and putting your best interests first could make mistakes like that. Yes I know in life people we love can advise us poorly but regarding important decisions like marriage; it seems a mistake not be taken lightly. I believe the key lies in the fact that Lady R. does not put Anne's interests first; she relies on what she sees in appropriate and customs of the day. Also Lady R. has this spiteful glee when she learns that Wentworth has attached himself to Louise Musgrove. If her first concern was Anne, she would have held him contempt for hurting Anne. But this, I believe, further reveals Lady R.'s primary concern - herself. What I love about Anne is that she is able to persevere in spite of being alone and unappreciated; lesser people would not have been able to cope."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (05:01)", "body": "I agree with those who have said this is a great topic - with the potential to branch many times if it could! With regard to a direct comparison between Anne Elliot and Elizabeth Bennett, I also think that the differences in their behaviour arise from differences in their personality and, to a lesser extent, situation. Elizabeth isn't stronger than Anne, she's more outgoing, self-assured and lively, especially at the start of her novel, but as has been pointed out Anne is just as strong, in her more contained way. Lizzy's more extroverted character does fit better with the 'ideal' some modern feminists currently promote, but I think this is an error of judgement on their part made because the strength of the extrovert is more obvious. Today as in the Regency it's a mistake to make assumptions about anyone's moral or social strength based on their manner. In considering the 'modern' response to JA's heroines, I remembered one ofmy own first responses to P&P2; that even in 1812, some men were attracted to strong women because of their strength, not in spite of it! I don't know why it took me this long to notice it - I first read P&P in 1972, but in those days I didn't know anything about regency society and had little interest in 'gender politics'. Thinking of the rest of JA's work, I then noticed how little the differences between the society of the time and ours intrude; despite the laws and 'official' social rules of the time, we see strong, and weak, good, bad and indifferent amongst men and women. Despite some major changes in the trappings, people seem to be much the same."}, {"response": 29, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (11:16)", "body": "\"Today as in the Regency it's a mistake to make assumptions about anyone's moral or social strength based on their manner.\" Wickham being the prime test case, right? I agree with Anna -- I think Anne is just as strong as Lizzie in her way; she just isn't as outgoing. But BECAUSE Lizzy is so much fun; so lively; so 'out there' in her way; I confess I like her better!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:49)", "body": "Again, I must ask if Lizzy really is the \"extrovert\" we all make her out to be...she is certainly assertive when need be, but she's not a go-getter. In that respect, the Anne of her late 20's and Lizzy are the same...but where Lizzy is free (and feels free) in making opinions (and expressing them when necessary), the young Anne is most certainly not. She allows herself to be swayed and discounted by others...she has a lack of faith in herself which is less a gender-political issue than a flaw of youth. In this way, I think Anne is a more realistic personality."}, {"response": 31, "author": "bplaroch", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:52)", "body": "The Austen heroines we see as being more like modern women are the ones who have some type of power. Some of you agreed with what I said earlier about Lizzy being in a position of power because of the love and support from her family. (Sometimes I think her father treats her like the son he never had). In the Elliot family, it is Elizbeth who appears to have this same power, but we see Anne's power emerge once she leaves Kellynch and goes to live among those at Upercross who respect and value her (sister Mary not necessarily included!) Emma also has power, and in fact professes her intention never to marry because she lacks neither wealth or consequence (read: Why do I need a man?) No discussion of gender politics could be complete without raising the issue of entailments. The fact that JA put so many of her heroines in a predicament because of an entailment I think gives us her opinion about that custom! How many women were forced into a situation that was less than desirable because of such a legal arrangement? This is something that makes Lizzy seem all the stronger. She knows perfectly well that she and her mother and sisters will be out on the street as soon as her fat er dies. She certainly has no reason to hope (at first) that someone of Darcy's social echelon would want to marry her, and yet she must follow her judgement and refuse Mr. Collins, despite what that may mean to her future. I think the fact that she rejects Darcy's first proposal shows that she is not interested in being rescued or looked upon as a charity case, so to speak. She can't accept him until he is prepared to come to her as an equal. (BTW, how do you think Mrs. B would have reacted if she fo nd out that Lizzy turned down Darcy's first proposal ;) )"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:53)", "body": "Katy - I live in a culture where the engagements are short (usally 3 months). This is for the moral implications of sex before marriage: \"Dangerous\"(?). Could this be it? I don't know how often/much these Regency period couples were allowed to be alone together, but that is a thought. She was honestly persuaded to believe that her love was wrong, and that the match would end in failure - that it would be a mistake, and that she and Wentworth would both live to regret it. I am not sure I agree Kali. I think LR was just trying to convince Anne it was not \"the Elliot way\" for her to marry a man \"who had nothing to recommend him but himself\" (or something to that effect). I don't think Anne thought it would end or fail . I think she was trying to do her duty, even though she loved him desperatley. I think she rejected Charles because she still loved Wentworth, even though Louisa says it was \"Lady Russell's doing\". Why was he good enough for Mary if he wasn't for Anne in LR's mind? Karen I loved you thoughts about Lady Russell I hadn't really thought of her being totally selfish..."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:08)", "body": "Anne didn't end the engagement merely for herself or for her family...she did it for Wentworth, too...she thought she was doing what was best for both of them....she thought she was averting some sort of terrible mistake by deniying the validity of her own judgement: \"The belief of being prudent, and self-denying principlally for his advantage, was her chief consolation...\""}, {"response": 34, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:15)", "body": "I agree with whomever said that Lizzy is in a position of power as her father's favorite. \"Lizzy has more quickness than her other sisters.\" Although, I agree with Kali-I don't think Lizzy's liveliness and wit denote a extrovert. Like her father, she enjoys making sport of their neighbours, all that is pompous and ridiculous: people who take themselves and their social position too seriously, like Lady Catherine de Bourg. Emma is also petted and indulged by her father and Mrs Weston; \"never could I expect to be so truely beloved and important, so always first and right in any man's eyes as I am in my father's.....I believe few married women are as half as much mistress of their husband's house as I am of Hartfield.\" In contrast, I have always seen Anne as a sister to Fanny Price. She's ostracized in her family. Elizabeth is clearly her father's favorite and Anne's faded bloom and thiness are the only things Sir Walter comments on. Even sister Mary thinks she is Anne's superior by marriage and motherhood: \"You who have not a mother's feelings are a great deal the properest person.\" Madly in love with Wentworth at the age of 19, then, but still unsure of herself, I can understand(although I can't identify) why she was persuaded by Lady Russell(her one constant confidant and supporter) not to marry him. At the time, she wasn't confident or mature enough to trust her own heart and judgement. Another thing: Louisa's exclamations that she's not so easily persuaded and subsequent fall at Lyme always seemed, for me, to be JA's way of justifying Anne's decision to heed the advice of Lady Russell, in favour of prudence and caution. Any thoughts???"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:54)", "body": "Part of the beauty of Anne's and Wentworth's rematch is the fact that it survived the test of rupture and time. Perhaps, if they had married years earlier, their love would not have attained the truth and richness that it did upon being rediscovered. Perhaps Austen was trying to show that Anne and Wentworth, like Louisa, needed time to grow up before they jumped into something that, in their inexperience with it, might prove to be unreliable."}, {"response": 36, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (11:00)", "body": "I think Lizzy _is_ an extrovert, not merely because she's witty in private but because she is so in public; is greatly at ease among strangers, unlike someone we know; plays the piano with little fear at parties, even though she knows she's no Horowitz; stands up immediately to imposing figures like Lady Catherine and Miss Bingley; does whatever she wants, regardless of her mother's wishes -- as in walking the 3 miles to Netherfield, refusing Mr. Collins, etc. The only area she reins herself in on is rom nce -- in not expressing her feelings, but I think this was _society's_ constraints acting on her, not necessarily her choice."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (19:03)", "body": "Wow! What a lot of interesting things to respond to. 'Do you think this is how JA herself survived? How some of us here survive? ' I think there are elements of this in both instances. Sometimes survival for the short term, sometimes survival for the long haul. -------- 'I don't think Lizzy is in danger of becoming too cynical. She, like all of us, gets down but she boucnes back.' I think if we judge Lizzy on the metal she shows in the rest of the book, this is true...she is tenacious where her own happiness is at stake. But she, like all of, could suffer one too many obstacles. -------- I agree that ' Anne had 'valid' reasons to give heed to Lady's Russell's advise,'and ' people we love can advise us poorly but regarding important decisions like marriage'. I think LR advised Anne as well as she knew how, and in that sense was not being selfish. It was just Anne's misfortune that LR's outlook on what was best was narrow and did recognise her own. 'She allows herself to be swayed and discounted by others...she has a lack of faith in herself ' I can't quite agree with this. I think she weighs up duty against her own feelings, and duty wins. Later she still feels she made the right decision. I agree with these: ' I don't think Anne thought it would end or fail. I think she was trying to do her duty, even though she loved him desperatley.' ..she did it for Wentworth, too...she thought she was doing what was best for both of them.. 'Louisa's exclamations that she's not so easily persuaded and subsequent fall at Lyme always seemed, for me, to be JA's way of justifying Anne's decision to heed the advice of Lady Russell, in favour of prudence and caution.' Indeed...and there's a whole new thread. ---------- Love Anna's comments: 'the strength of the extrovert is more obvious. Today as in the Regency it's a mistake to make assumptions about anyone's moral or social strength based on their manner.' 'even in 1812, some men were attracted to strong women because of their strength, not in spite of it!' ' how little the differences between the society of the time and ours intrude; despite the laws and 'official' social rules of the time, we see strong, and weak, good, bad and indifferent amongst men and women. Despite some major changes in the trappings, people seem to be much the same.' ------- And I like this: 'The Austen heroines we see as being more like modern women are the ones who have some type of power.' Whether the power resides in an introverted or extroverted personality does not matter. Maybe, too, it is as well to remeber that even Meyers-Briggs allows a scale between the extremes of extrovert and introvert. Lizzy maybe a 60% extrovert!"}, {"response": 38, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:03)", "body": "There were long engagments, but they were usually prolonged for financial reasons (normally people wouldn't marry until there was some semblance of an income sufficient to set up a household...) An engagement wasn't really legally binding (like medieval \"betrothals\" were), though suits for \"breach of promise\" were possible. But an engagement was taken very seriously socially, and in quite a few cases of breaking off an engagment, unless there was an obvious external reason for ending the engagement, or the man had obviously acted like a real cad, then there would tend to be a lot of rumors, especially about the woman, mwho might find her reputation more or less blighted..."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:41)", "body": "Perhaps Austen was trying to show that Anne and Wentworth, like Louisa, needed time to grow up before they jumped into something that, in their inexperience with it, might prove to be unreliable. Very thought-provoking, indeed, Kali. I have always felt that maybe they didn't know each other as well as they thought they did at the time they were first engaged. Had they truly, would they have ever been apart, no matter what the circumstances?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (01:54)", "body": "Exactly, Susan. That's what I was trying to convey...if they really knew eachother...and if they really understood the nature of their attachement, they would have never separated."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Serena", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (02:42)", "body": "I felt Jane Austen might have wanted to show up the value of putting love before prudential considerations. Lady Russel being all pragmatism and Anne/Wentworth being so much in love. Having done her family duty Anne lives to some degree of regret, but still reassuring herslf that she had done rightly by all of them. Anne was 'pushed' into early prudence. Then, she meets the Crofts, Mrs Croft has sailed the oceans, been through thick and thin and lived to tell the experience. The Crofts have a love story of their own. That is exactly Anne's missed opportunity. (Though I guess Wentworth would have had to be Captain for that arrangement to have taken place on the ship.) But it was the essence of a mature-love relationship (that Kali mentions above) that it had to grow into. Is this going round in circles?"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Anneother", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (10:38)", "body": "When I think of Anne Elliot, I get a mind picture of someone who is very introverted and self-contained, but with the inner recognition of what is important to her own beliefs, and what is unimportant. She can be easily swayed by things which don't really matter to her, but quietly and restrainedly stands firm on those things that do matter to her. I wish I could be more like that."}, {"response": 43, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (11:00)", "body": "If extroversion = morality, then everyone in Hollywood is a saint!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (12:01)", "body": "Amy2 - Thank you for so eloquently stating your understanding of why Elizabeth appears to be more extroverted (in resp. 36). Your statement 43 gives me a chuckle as well. Kali and Susan - I agree with your impression of Anne and Wentworth's early relationship (and the misunderstandings) however I am usually more inclined to fault Wentworth for this. True LR persuaded Anne but if Wentworth knew Anne he must known her heart. Even after eight years, it still takes him most of the novel to realize how steadfast Anne is. Hilary - Yes LR is pragmatic but don't you think she should have created situations so Anne would meet others. When the Elliots move to Bath, she suggests this but why not sooner or bring Anne someplace. Selfish may not be the right word but LR has her own agenda for Anne regardless of what Anne thinks; it is difficult for me to call that type of control, love or concern."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (20:20)", "body": ""}, {"response": 46, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (20:23)", "body": "Sorry about that -- I must have Friday fingers, i.e, they're as tired as I am! Karen, I agree that Lady R's motives are suspect and rather un-friend-like. It's sad that's she's about the only friend Anne has -- poor dear has no one who really cares about what's best for her."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (23:51)", "body": "'I wish I could be more like that.' oh yes! 'If extroversion = morality,' LOL. But who says it does? LR does have her own agenda for Anne. But I still think it is well-meant. It says more about LR's values and lack of understanding than anything else."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (05:52)", "body": "I honestly think LR is a creature of her environment and understanding. How many of us have had mothers with good intentions, but have given us advice that was totally wrong. I know I have! LR was taking the place of AE mother after her death. I just adore AE. I think her an excellent creature. is not JA timeless..."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (07:25)", "body": "% is not JA timeless... I think we're partial proof of that, Leslie! %-)"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (01:25)", "body": "Yes, she is a legend in my book.. JA's perception of human failings and characteristics is remarkable. For instance, LR behaves typically of someone who has taken on the protective role to promote the well being of those under her charge. It turns out to Anne's disadvantage, since it is tinged with materialism and not based on true understanding. See thinks she is doing her best for Anne, but it is misdirected, somewhat. If LR had 'loved' Anne as a mother and not only as her guardian, I could have liked er more in the novel.."}, {"response": 51, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (11:14)", "body": "Yet I can't be too harsh on Lady Russell. Lady Russel stands in the place of Anne Elliot's mother. She has more maturity. Knows more about the world. Know's Anne has no independent fortune and knows her father's spendthrift ways. Lady Russell's motives may be mixed, but she seems to mean well. Objectively speaking the marriage would not have been a happy one, I think, had it taken place before Capt. Wentworth had made his fortune. Anne has no allies at this point, neither in fortune, nor in society. She could do little else but refuse him. Best at this time for her and him. Capt. Wentworth soon forgot about her during his rise to command status in the RN. But memories of her sometimes intruded upon his conscious life and perhaps his dreams, I would think. Anne's feelings continued on much stronger during the years of separation. Perhaps JA is right, women suffer more during these kinds of life experience than do men. Maybe their feelings remain stronger, even after\" hope is gone\". Might be an interesting thread for discussion."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (11:19)", "body": "Maybe their feelings remain stronger, even after\" hope is gone\". Might be an interesting thread for discussion. I agree -- it could be very interesting indeed! :-)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:07)", "body": "Anne even states when she talks with Harvill (spll) that women cannot help it, they live quiet lives at home. Men go out in the world and \"do\". I don't think it is only \"when hope is gone\" in their case. Hell, I work full time and still spend too much time thinking."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:25)", "body": "I think in JA's days, it was inevitable that women would suffer more and think more. They had little else to occupy them and what they did have was usually quiet, sedentary work that led to further thinking. Capt. Wentworth, on the other hand, was busy commanding a ship and would have little time to sit and reflect over his loss. I don't think the same holds true today, where both men and women are busy and might either both reflect or forget, or drown their sorrows, whatever. I think I just lost my idea!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (18:22)", "body": "I don't think it is only \"when hope is gone\" in their case. Hell, I work full time and still spend too much time thinking. Agreed. Tongue-in-cheek case in point: Relationships Contrary to what many women believe, it is fairly easy to develop a long-term, stable, intimate, and mutually fulfilling relationship with a guy. Or course this guy has to be a Labrador retriever. With human guys, its extremely difficult. This is because guys don't really grasp what women mean by the term relationship. Let's say a guy named Roger is attracted to a woman named Elaine. He asks her out to a movie; she accepts; they have a pretty good time. A few nights later he asks her out to dinner, and again they enjoy themselves. They continue to see each other regularly, and after a while neither one of them is seeing anybody else. And then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to Elaine, and, without really thinking, she says it aloud: \"Do you realize that, as of tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly six months?\" And then there is silence in the car. To Elaine, it seems like a very loud silence. She thinks to herself; Geez, I wonder if it bothers him that I said that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our relationship; maybe he thinks I'm trying to push him into some kind of obligation that he doesn't want, or isn't sure of. And Roger is thinking: Gosh. Six months. And Elaine is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of relationship, either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so I'd have time to think about whether I really want us to keep going the way we are, moving steadily toward x I mean, where are we going? Are we just going to keep seeing each other at this level of intimacy? Are we heading toward marriage? Toward children? Toward a lifetime together? Am I ready for that level of commitment? Do I really even know this person? And Roger is thinking: So that means it was, let's see, February when we started going out, which was right after I had the car at the dealer's. Which means, lemme check the odometer, WHOA! I am way overdue for an oil change here. And Elaine is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe I'm reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our relationship, more intimacy, more commitment. Maybe he has sensed -- even before I sensed it -- that I was feeling some reservations. Yes, I bet that's it. That's why he's so reluctant to say anything about his own feelings. He's afraid of being rejected. And Roger is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the transmission again. I don't care what those morons say, it's still not shifting right. And they better not try to blame it on the cold weather this time. What cold weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this thing is shifting like a damn garbage truck, and I paid those incompetent thieves $600! COMMUNICATIONS GAP And Elaine is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be angry too. God, I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I can't help the way I feel. I'm just not sure. And Roger is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90-day warranty. That's exactly what they're gonna say, the scumballs! And Elaine is thinking: Maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a knight to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right next to a perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person I care about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A person who is in pain because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic fantasy. And Roger is thinking: Warranty?! They want a warranty?! I'll give them a damn warranty! I'll take their warranty and stick it right up their... \"Roger,\" Elaine says aloud. \"What?\" says Roger. \"Please don't torture yourself like this,\" she says, her eyes beginning to brim with tears. \"Maybe I should never have... Oh God, I feel so...\" (She breaks down, sobbing). \"What?\" asks Roger. \"I'm such a fool,\" Elaine sobs. \"I mean, I know there's no knight. I really know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no horse.\" \"There's no horse?\" asks Roger. \"You think I'm a fool, don't you?\" Elaine says. \"No!\" says Roger, glad to finally know the correct answer. \"It's just that ... It's that I ... I need some time,\" Elaine says. (There is a 15 second pause while Roger, thinking as fast as he can, tries to come up with a safe response. Finally, he comes up with one that he thinks might work.) \"Yes,\" he says. A BEFUDDLED BEAU (Elaine, deeply moved, touches his hand.) \"Oh, Roger, do you really feel that way?\" she asks. \"What way?\" asks Roger. \"That way about time?\" says Elaine. \"Oh,\" says Roger. \"Yes.\" (Elaine turns to face him and gazes deeply into his eyes, causing him to become very nervous about what she might say next, especially if it involves a horse. At last, she speaks.) \"Thank you, Roger,\" she says. \"Thank you,\" says Roger. Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed, a conflicted, tortured soul, and weeps until dawn, whereas when Roge"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (18:45)", "body": "Susan, that is remarkable. Thank you."}, {"response": 57, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:08)", "body": "Susan - ROTFLOL. The meaningful discussions we have not had!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:26)", "body": "perfect! absolutely perfect!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:47)", "body": "Several people have stated that they view Anne as weak (or lacking in strength) for breaking off her original engagement to Wentworth. But does strength only come from following one's heart no matter what? Does it not also show great strength of character to put aside one's feelings for the sake of prudence? Where the heart and the head are in conflict which takes more strength to defy? As JA wrote the story, Wentworth was sucessful, received his promotions, and made a tidy fortune over the years he was away from Anne, but there was no way she could have known that he would do so. As he said himself, it was lucky he didn't go down in the rickety and unsafe Asp , which would have left her a young widow with no money. He felt she should have had enough faith in him to go ahead anyway, but a military career, particularly in the Royal Navy, takes a great deal more than just force of ch racter or even ability. If he failed to make the proper connections (I'm sure it helped that he was brother-in-law to an admiral), or if the uncontrolable sea was unfavorable, or if he lost one of his battles, he would not have been sucessful and the marriage would have been a disaster. Intellectualy she was right to refuse him until he could be in a position to be able to securely provide for her. That he didn't apply for her hand when this obsticle was removed was a weakness of his , due to damaged pride and anger at her for her prior hesitations. If he had renewed his offer, we could then see that she made an absolutely proper decision to wait until he was in a position to take care of her. I think it took great strength for her to turn away from a love strong enough to last for over eight years of seperation. I think much of this boils down to which you have more value for: the head or the heart. For me I value rational and careful thought tempered with sufficient feeling. I think many here value the passions of the heart tempered sufficiently with rational thought. How you view Anne's strength and decisions will depend very much on your own personality and values."}, {"response": 60, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:56)", "body": "It is hard to think back past Susan's delightful senario and get back to the male vs. female response to breakups. Years ago, I read that the shyer, more introverted partner will have more trouble with the breakup than the more outgoing partner. Maybe this is the 20th century replacement for Anne's statement that women remember longer. As a shy woman (a blessed quarter of a centruy past my last painful breakup), I cannot exactly be sure (remember) where society's retrictions on women ended and my own restricitons on myself began. But I am watching teens just learning to date, and I see boys ready to propse at 12 and 15 (the one who proposed at 12 is now 14 and still in love with the same girl), boys who have only one friend (the girl friend) and who take it very hard when the breakup occurs, boys too young to drive who have maintained steady relationships for over a year. One of my neighbors has practically adopted her son's girlfriend over the last year. These boys do value their relationships with their girl friends! Maybe these boys will change and get more aloof as they get older. This is the only dating age group I know well at the moment, so I cannot predict the situation five years from now. But I wonder if maybe we are remembering the 'ones to got away' and forgetting the ones we got away from when we talk about men and their disregard for relationships."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (20:08)", "body": "Susan, that was absolutely marvellous! LOL for quite a while!!;-)"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (22:11)", "body": "Susan, I'm still in stitches - isn't that so real a scenario and ending with the women analysing it to pieces and the guy wondering about the horse!!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (22:30)", "body": "Glad you guys liked that! I took it in to work, and everyone, men and women alike, loved it -- all the guys said it accurately described women, and all the women said it was spot on for guys, but everyone thought it was funnier than hell! When we say they don't get it, we're talking about the horse, aren't we? %-)"}, {"response": 64, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:28)", "body": "For me I value rational and careful thought tempered with sufficient feeling. I think many here value the passions of the heart tempered sufficiently with rational thought. I don't know if I should feel slammed or be impressed. Either way, put well. One of the things we discussed at my JASNA meeting on Saturday was the way that Wentworth actually came into all this money. We decided not to call him a pirate but a privateer. Subtle difference. I guess this was the excepted form for a seaman to get his fortune. In this day and age it would be frowned upon. I don't think Anne was weak. You just need to read the two pages (in my book) where the explanation of the break-up is and you can understand where she is coming from. She did it for both of them. I don't agree with her reasons and the way her character appears to be, I don't think this would have failed. I still think she would have been happy and, as the book says, Wentworth was sure he would secure a fortune. I guess I just don't see Anne being the Lady of the Manor. I think she would have been happy anywhere, as long as she was with Frederick. Do you think he would have taken Anne with him, like the Admiral took Sophie? Maybe this is just my passion of the heart talking."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:46)", "body": "I forgot to say: Susan, loved the story. Already copied it into my wordprocessor. A friend sent me a comic from the Washington Post a few months ago. It shows a woman working at a computer. She reads: Instant Companion, matchmaking services for mature singles. Fill out qualifications for your ideal mate. She writes: Seeking a trustworthy male who enjoys a simple life..long walks at sunset ...content with cuddling..someone who'd be loyal to one woman. She posts the letter and walks away with a sigh. Later her door bell rings. When she answers there sits a smiling dog with a rose in his teeth. She takes him for a walk and thinks: What the heck.. at least he's vaccinated . So, are we getting cynical?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (14:26)", "body": "I've often wondered what JA thought about the way naval men made their fortunes, too, Dina. And forgive me for repeating this, but it is one of my favorite fantasies -- that the Captain's ship escorts Napolean to his second exile. Anne's on board and counsels Nap as to the proper blend of prose and poetry for one in exile."}, {"response": 67, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (16:18)", "body": "I would have never thought of that. Amy, you're brilliant!! Do you think she recommended Marmion or Lady of the Lake?"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:34)", "body": "Well, as long as it's my fantasy, I'll say she pointed him to Blake."}, {"response": 69, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:57)", "body": "Susan's #54 clearly describes how many men deal with relationship talk. While 90% of the time most men arn't thinking of anything; the other 10% of the time is usually spent dealing with some concrete problem with strictly defined perameters. Not relationships! Men want a relationship with a woman, we just don't want to have to talk about it."}, {"response": 70, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "Nice idea, Amy. To Susan's piece, and others: Its funny, and there is a bit of truth in it, as in all stereo-typing. But why stereo-type in a discussion that is precisely about not stereo-typing? I am caught between despair and anger."}, {"response": 71, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (23:15)", "body": "]why stereo-type in a discussion that is precisely about not stereo-typing? I am caught between despair and anger. Hil, I understand what you mean, but sometimes humor leads to understanding. No offense was intended."}, {"response": 72, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (23:26)", "body": "I know no offense was meant, Susan. Thanks."}, {"response": 73, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (23:37)", "body": "-- that the Captain's ship escorts Napolean to his second exile. Anne's on board and counsels Nap -- in French of course. Anne's fluent French is why Wentworth was chosen for this task!"}, {"response": 74, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (02:17)", "body": "I can't stand Lady Russell. Lots of people -- including Hilary's fave critic -- have mentioned Anne's strength, her enviable way of keeping herself intact with no love or support. I think she learned to do this from her mistake in listening to Lady R and refusing the Captain. We talk a lot about how we, as a group or type, think too much. Anne was our patron saint. What did she have to do but reflect on her turning point? I could be wrong, but I like to think she mulled it all over -- and over and over. And decided at some point during those eight years that she would be her own person no matter what. I love her."}, {"response": 75, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (03:50)", "body": "There we have it in print - an opinion from a man (Carl) about Susan's exclusive story. 90% of the time they're not thinking about anything...... and before that gets me into trouble - I'm sure the 10% makes up for it. I hope I'm not alone when I say that I really enjoyed the adaptation of Persuasion - it was just as I pictured the novel to be and Capt. Wentworth with his disinterested, arrogant air when he first meets Anne at breakfast in Mary's kitchen after so many years. My heart broke for her and him. They were all so well cast."}, {"response": 76, "author": "janea", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (09:50)", "body": "Susan! LOL, or should I say LOVL, laughing out _very_ loud. Have you read John Gray\ufffds book \"Women come from Venus, men come from Mars\"? It\ufffds about just this. There is a desciption in the book about Elaine (if I may borrow your names?) coming home from job. She\ufffds worried, she wants to talk about her problems. Roger doesn\ufffdt understand. He puts om he\ufffds little \"servicehat\" (I don\ufffdt know the right word, because I read the Swedish translation) and comes with a solution to the problems. Elaine doesn\ufffdt want any s lution, she wants some sympathy, some comfort. She wants to _talk_, over and over again until it feels better. Roger wants to deliver a quick solution and get on with things. As Carl descibed it: men want to have a relationship with a woman, they just don\ufffdt want to talk about it. In some ways we are so different. Or as one of my friends use to say: Men, they\ufffdre just not like ordinary people...."}, {"response": 77, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (10:49)", "body": "Susan, that was great. You should send it to a magazine"}, {"response": 78, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:40)", "body": "Amy, I agree. I can't stand LR. So obsessed with decorum. I think we can all say that certain perspectives of decorum did not matter to AE. I think there were areas that were important to AE, but it was not all consuming. Thank goodness she did not marry that snake Mr. Elliot. Perhaps we could have a little fun though, and start a Kellynch Writers Guild..."}, {"response": 79, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:47)", "body": "'We talk a lot about how we, as a group or type, think too much. Anne was our patron saint. What did she have to do but reflect on her turning point? I could be wrong, but I like to think she mulled it all over -- and over and over. And decided at some point during those eight years that she would be her own person no matter what. I love her.' How beautifully put. Thanks. I don't think(!) theres much wrong with thinking a lot."}, {"response": 80, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (14:13)", "body": "I can't stand LR either. I always felt that her interest in Anne wasn't motivated at all by what she thought was good for Anne, but rather by what she wanted her best friend's daughter to be. It was all wrapped up in Anne's resemblance to her mother and LR refused to see beyond it. She pushed Anne toward the model she kept in her head of her friend. It reminded me of those women who have decided that their daughter will be the prettiest/brightest/most popular student and push them toward that goal, wi hout regard for talent or temperament or desire."}, {"response": 81, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (16:49)", "body": "Ditto to Amy and Margaret. I too hate LR, and I agree she doesn't ever think of Anne's best interests. That's why I'm glad Anne decided to be her own person and listen to her own heart the second time around!"}, {"response": 82, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (16:53)", "body": "Well, finally, where were we all when this topic first started. Lady Russell haters united and be counted! Down with that kind of persuasion!"}, {"response": 83, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (18:13)", "body": "Susan, your piece went all around my office today. Much profuse giggling, even accompanied by tears! It's all so true! Thx for a good laugh!"}, {"response": 84, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (19:32)", "body": "Yes indeed Amy..."}, {"response": 85, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (19:32)", "body": "Yes indeed Amy..."}, {"response": 86, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (19:33)", "body": "OOPS...."}, {"response": 87, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (00:06)", "body": "And decided at some point during those eight years that she would be her own person no matter what. (Each of these lines should really be written vertically on a separate page with paintings which are described as \"meditations\" inserted at appropriate points, so you will have to imagine that part.) You, too, withhold the very things you complain are missing from the world. The space for what you want is already filled with what you settle for instead. You live for others, and wonder why you're never fulfilled. When you give up your own truth to win at someone else's game, everyone loses. Your relationships reflect your fears and limits. How can anyone ever give you what you won't allow? Every time you settle for the unacceptable you suffer a small death. Everything and everyone in your life is there by your choice. Release your snapshot images of relationships. Life is a motion picture. How can anyone ever love you for who you are if you become someone else to be with them? The opening lines/pages from Illuminations by Stephen C. Paul and Gary Max Collins. ISBN 0-06-250681-1 And along similar lines - similarly presented and illustrated: Life incites you to run from the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth If you care to. Life invites you to live by the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth If you dare to. Question: how can you tell the guru in the black robe from the guru in the white robe? Answer: the guru in the black robe keeps you wondering whether it is safe for you to go off into the sunset without him. the guru in the white robe smiles serenely as you bid each other farewell. having taught you to become your own guru. Snippets from Life is A Gift by Rusty Berkus and Christa Wollan, ISBN#0-9609888-0-7 - and also by the same duo: Appearances ISBN# 0-9609888-1-5"}, {"response": 88, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (07:40)", "body": "Thank you, Joan."}, {"response": 89, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (11:05)", "body": "I too don't like Lady Russell. It's hard to like someone who meddles in other people's lives, especially when their meddling has such a terrible effect. In Yiddish, we call such a person a yenta, and it's not a great thing to be thought as."}, {"response": 90, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:37)", "body": "Thanks, Joan. 'care' and 'dare'....hmmmm"}, {"response": 91, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:39)", "body": "You don't like Emma, then, Amy2?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (16:45)", "body": "I like Lady Russell. I think she suffers from JA's creation of a heroine who has lived in solitude with a broken heart for eight years. For this situation to happen, poor Lady R must be very ineffective in her mothering. Even though Anne is my favorite Austen heroine, I have always considered her situation to be a bit of a stretch. It is very hard for me to believe that such a talented and lovely young woman could have been so neglected by everyone who might have helped her and would have been unable to make any efforts of her own to break out of the grinding routine of life at Kellynch and Uppercross. It makes no sense that Lady R would not have gotten her away from home more often. But I love the story, and I adore Anne, so I accept the situation as JA presents it. Lady R learns from her mistakes and reforms her opinions."}, {"response": 93, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "Kali, I know this one is your fave, but I generally don't like EMMA. My faves are P&P, Persusasion, and Northanger Abbey. Now despise me if you dare!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (09:36)", "body": "Joan, those are wonderful -- and very thought-provoking..."}, {"response": 95, "author": "janea", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:14)", "body": "I\ufffdm not sure, but I think that I liked Lady Russell better in the book. In the film I think she\ufffds a bit cold. I can\ufffdt feel that she really cares for Anne. Compare the warmth between Anne and Mrs Croft in the Pumproom with the talks she has with Lady Russell who is supposed to be her dearest friend. I\ufffdve started to read the book again to see if I remember right. Anyone else who thinks the same?"}, {"response": 96, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:55)", "body": "I can understand the resentment some may have to Lady Russell, but I beleive she acts more like a MOM to Ann than anything else. And like a MOM, she wants whats best for Ann, what SHE thinks is best, according to HER values : someone with money, connections, title, good breeding and good looks. Her only fault is to disregard what Ann wants, so how ever wrong LR's actions are, they were kindly meant and surely out of concern and a sentiment of care toward our heroine. We can see a lot less caring and support from her own family. Lucily Ann grows older and makes her own decision, but should she keep a grudge toward Lady Russel, like many of us should keep grudge to someone who tried to do right by doing wrong?"}, {"response": 97, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:56)", "body": "That Bingley Thing You Do should be our antemn"}, {"response": 98, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (13:19)", "body": "Jane - I too liked Lady Russell better in the book; she was more fleshed out, and there was more of an emphasis on her genuine concern for the family, and for Anne in particular. In the book I was more forgiving of her character faults, for it seemed to me she was putting a lot of pressure on herself to be to the Eliots what Lady Eliot had been before she died - the voice of reason. In the film, she appeared very selfish, and deserving of the angry words Wentworth gave her."}, {"response": 99, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (16:16)", "body": "Tracey, you're right. I just recently finished the book again and LR is much more fleshed out in it, versus the movie. In the book you read her thoughts, which are concern for Anne and disgust with her father and older sister for ignoring her. Her thoughts are much more concerned with Anne's welfare in the book than can be shown or is shown in the movie. Maybe that's why she seems rather cold. I'm just glad that Anne didn't seek her advice the second time around!!;-)"}, {"response": 100, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (16:46)", "body": "I don't think Anne would have been swayed a second time anyway. When she sees Lady R refuse to acknowledge Wentworth on the street in Bath - LR pretends she has been looking at curtains - Anne 'sighed and blushed and smiled, in pity and disdain, either at her friend or herself.' I think at this point she really acknowledges to herself how shallow and at variance to her own happiness are Lady R's values."}, {"response": 101, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (07:02)", "body": "Hilary, I agree Let us not forget that LR wanted AE to marry Mr. Elliot. What a disaster that would have been."}, {"response": 102, "author": "jane", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (18:09)", "body": "Hilary, I don't think it matters to the interpretation of Lady R., but I couldn't tell from the curtain scene whether Lady R. had seen Captain W. or not. I thought that Anne's disdain refered to Lady R if she did see him, OR to herself if Lady R. didn't (laughing at herself a bit for thinking that everyone would find Wentworth impossible to miss). Jane P.S. I love the thoughtful threads you have been starting and fostering lately."}, {"response": 103, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (13:22)", "body": "I archived the other Persuasion thread. Here are the recent messages from it: Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 119 of 128: Cheryl Sneed (Cheryl) * Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (02:08) * 4 lines Serena: Was there an earlier adaptation to the 1995 Amanda Root's Persuasion? The BBC did a version of it in the 70's. We had a Virtual View of it earlier this year, the topic should still be up if you care to read our reviews. The consensus is that it was pretty bad...stick with amanda Root and Cairan Hinds! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 120 of 128: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (21:46) * 1 lines A family friend purchased the 1995 version, hated it, and so gave it to me without hesitation...can you imagine? What generosity! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 121 of 128: Ann (Ann) * Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (21:49) * 3 lines I hate the description on the back of the box: \"A young couple's stormy romance scandalizes English society in this acclaimed adaptation...\" No it doesn't! Society barely pays any attention at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 122 of 128: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (22:18) * 1 lines How about \"flirtatious fun\"? I didn't catch that... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 123 of 128: Susan (Susan) * Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:06) * 1 lines kali, you are lucky indeed! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 124 of 128: Katy Kendall (kendall) * Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (02:34) * 1 lines I have this 1965 paperback edition of Persuasion with a gothic horror front cover and quotes on the back cover from Henry's teasing tale of terror to Catherine as they drive to the abby. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 125 of 128: Amy (Amy) * Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (03:59) * 1 lines I think Henry has that NA cover scanned in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 126 of 128: Ann (Ann) * Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (16:39) * 1 lines Persuasion a gothic tale of horror? I suppose it is all in how you look at it ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 127 of 128: The MYsterious H.C. (churchh) * Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (06:45) * 0 lines ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 121 of 237 [austen]: Persuasion Response 128 of 128: The Mysterious H.C. (churchh) * Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (06:47) * 3 lines Katy, is this it? -- http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/nhabgoth.jpg http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/nhabgoth.html"}, {"response": 104, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (08:29)", "body": "Johanne, I agree with you about LR. She really did think she was doing what was best for Ann, both in advising Ann not to marry Wentworth, and later in advising her to marry Mr. Eliot. Remember, she feels herself as trying to take the place of Ann's mother in these matters, and tries to do what she thinks Ann's mom would have done. Look who Ann's mother married...Couldn't it be that there is a bit of a generation gap here, and LR believes that a good marriage does not necessarily include love, but for nn, Love is what would make it a good marriage. Isn't this true of almost all JA's heroines? Fanny would be making a good match in Henry, as far as society was concerned, and so would Lizzy, had she accepted Darcy before she loved him."}, {"response": 105, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (13:27)", "body": "Or Collins for that matter! Yes."}, {"response": 106, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (18:46)", "body": "Perhaps Lady Russel has stepped into a mother's shoes without the necessary experience of being the true mother of Anne. She is anxious (in a quick-fix type of way) that Anne should be taken cared of and for life, by marrying well and so the early Wentworth is not suitable in terms of financial security. LR only wanted Anne to be marriaed into the lifestyle she was accustomed to. That cannot be too evil an intention, can it??"}, {"response": 107, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (18:50)", "body": "An interesting point Serena. It rather puts LR into a different perspective. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 211, "subject": "LIONS AND LIQUORICE", "response_count": 51, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (16:20)", "body": "Amy2, I bought this book in England last summer and read it right away. I loved it. Thought it was a very clever, modern, reversed, update of P&P and yes, very funny! I'm glad you've read it. Maybe some others will also read it and we can have a discussion. How did you like all the back and forth at the end - the equivalent of the Lydia/Wickham story? I thought it was a very funny, plausible, modernization of that situation."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (17:07)", "body": "I enjoyed this book very much. I loved matching the characters up with there P&P counterparts. I thought it was very funny."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (19:55)", "body": "I thought it was completely great! The 90's modernization of what happens to \"Lydia/Chris\" is a scream. I also liked the jumping back and forth from fiction to reality, not usually one of my favorite plot devices. But Fenton handled it so skillfully, I could just sit back and applaud. That woman is FUNNY! Does anyone know what else she's done? She seems familiar with the process of filming, from her description of same in the book. And Marcy Dance! What a hoot!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "Amy2: Kate Fenton is married to an actor - Ian Carmichael - who, if I remember correctly, was in a lot of English comedies some years ago - like \"Doctor at Sea\" and some other doctor films of that ilk. He must be in his 60s or older by now. Maybe she got her film experience through him, or maybe she worked in the film world herself. Don't know what else she has written."}, {"response": 5, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (06:53)", "body": "I have just ordered it!! my first order by internet experience."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (07:36)", "body": "Inko, Ian Carmichael was the original \"Bertie Wooster\" (not the one on video) and also the original \"Lord Peter Whimsey\"- very funny in both parts."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (11:15)", "body": "I thought she must have SOME familiarity with movies/TV. That's something you can't really fake. Kate -- don't despair! I've ordered about 20 books from amazon.com, and they are really great -- fast, and they never mess up your order. I have to say that my favorite bit in the book is transposing Jane onto Nick's brother-in-law John. That whole love story between \"Candia Bingham\" and him is a lot of fun, due to the role reversal. I also think it's great that \"Caroline\" takes the form of Roderick (don t want to give too much away here). I just loved Fenton's style, wit, invention, etc. Really a tour de force!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:06)", "body": "Amy2, you sent me back to reading this book and all day I've been chuckling and had a broad grin on my face. I'd forgotten how truly funny it is - and I've only just started re-reading it! Here's the scoop on Kate Fenton, taken from the back of the jacket cover, under a nice photo of her: Kate Fenton was born in Oldham (near Manchester) and educated in Cheshire, Manchester and at St. Hilda's College, Oxford. As a BBC features and documentaries producer, she worked for Bookshelf and Woman's Hour on Radio 4, and also for Radio Wales and the World Service. She is the author of two previous acclaimed noves, The Colours of Snow and Dancing to the Pipers , and is currently working on her fourth. She lives on the North York Moors with her husband, actor Ian Carmichae . BTW - My book says it was first published in 1995 - so perhaps her next book will be out soon."}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (11:04)", "body": "Ah ha! My book has absolutely no information about the author. So THAT'S why Fenton knows so much about filming, radio, Manchester College, Oxford, etc. I love the way she plays on her own work: Nick's thriller is called SNOW BLACK; hers was THE COLOURS OF SNOW. The whole novel is just so wildly inventive & imaginative -- Fenton was never reined in too much by P&P; she does whatever she pleases, but still manages to \"cover\" every major P&P character, even Col. Fitzwilliam! (\"Miriam Weissman\"). I love this book!! Better than DARCY'S STORY, if I may so speak. . ."}, {"response": 10, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (12:08)", "body": "AARGH!!! Amazon.com emailed me today to tell me this book would cost $69.65!!! Understandably I cancelled the order and said I couldn't believe that they had their info right. How much should it be?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:47)", "body": "I ordered mine from Walden books. It was about 20 dollars, because only the large print version is available."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (16:43)", "body": "I paid 15 pounds for the hardcover in England last summer (that's about $24.00 if I remember the exchange rate correctly) although inside it also says in Canada the price is $40.00 (Canadian, I assume). Anyway, $59 is wayyyyy tooo much!! Amy2, since starting to re-read it, I've been mentally casting the parts, trying to keep as close to the P&P2 cast as possible. So far I have: CF as Nick, CBC as John, Anna Chancellor as Mary Dance, perhaps JE as Candia (though I'm not sure about that), Alison Steadman as Sarah, Tim Wylton or Benjamin Whitrow as Bernie, and Adrian Lukis as Roderick. That's as far as I've got so far. I think it would be a hoot if they ever did this and if the cast agreed!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (11:04)", "body": "Ha! CF playing \"Lizzy\"! And I DO think JE would be the perfect Candia; or maybe Kate Winslet. And Anna Chancellor as Mary Dance! \"Type casting\" as we say. How bout Sigourney Weaver? Wouldn't that be a hoot? And Julian Sands or Cary Elwes as hunky John? KATE: Here's the key to ordering from amazon.com: ORDER THE LARGE PRINT VERSION! It's in stock, and a lot cheaper. I think I only paid about $25.00 U.S."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "Julian Sands or Cary Elwes as hunky John? __ They are rather interchangable."}, {"response": 15, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (11:06)", "body": "Amy, I'll take either of them or both! Once rode the same elevator with Julian. . .(drool; drool). Back to the book: Some of my favorite lines are (I'm paraphrasing) about how the Yorkshire newspaper dealt with the Battle of Alamein in WWII : \"Local Man Lost in Desert.\" Also Roderick's line to Nick: \"That odd little man with a camera wants to speak to you.\" Fenton is REALLY funny. Her humour just crackles off the page. Was this book very successful in England, does anyone know? I hope it did well - it certainly deserves to."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Gabrie", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (17:23)", "body": "I just loved this book, ordered it through a bookstore here in Sweden for 110 Skr, about 10 pounds, it's a paperback and on it it says \"as read on Women's Hour\" so the book must have been quite a success... a pity I missed the radio reading... It's truely great fun :) Also managed to get hold of \"Dancing to the Pipers\" (unfortunately in Swedish but also great!) and even if it's not exactly as much fun as Lions... it kept me awake all through the night (was I tired at the lecture next day or what?) :) It's more of a mystery novel but it does contain some adorable caracters AND, as I have a great love for Oxford, the scenery is just great.. Finally I just have to agree about Julian Sands as John .. drool indeed! ... but IS he tall enough? I don't think that I'm really aware of his height.. anyone? ..and ok just one more thing.. what about the female author acting as Colonel Fitzwilliam? She's just soo great! (name escapes me at the moment, veryy sorry)"}, {"response": 17, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (13:44)", "body": "Well you've all convinced me to buy it. This Jane Auten fascination I have is becoming quite expensive. First I bought all of her six novels, then I purchsed the P&P2 video set, The Making of P&P book, Darcy's Story, Sense & Sensibility Video and CD and now I've just put in my order for P&P CD, Lions & Liquorice, and Jane Austen's Little Advice Book. I'm sure that when the Emma video is released in April I'll buy it too. I'm afraid to make the total calculation of what I've spent. But what the hell! If it brings me pleasure than why not?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (14:47)", "body": "Lisa: I'm afraid to make the total calculation of what I've spent. But what the hell! If it brings me pleasure than why not? Why not, indeed! I have a canvas book bag (from Waldenbooks bookstore) with a quote from Erasmus: \"When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.\" [I would just add videos to books, and be in complete agreement.]"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (15:39)", "body": "I have bought P&P CD,S&S cd+ cass.& video, 2 (books) versions of Persusaion + video, 2 (Books)versions of P&P + cliff notes,remaining novels,Illustrated Letters,What Jane Austen Ate ect.The English Patient(book),HHGTTG,Nostromo (on audio tapes),Making of P&P Book and (2books) Darcy's Story,Plus \"Biography\"(A&E monthly) subcribition.Plus Mozart on Cd, Cass, and sheet music.Joined the Walenbooks membership Club 10% discount. I would like to get JA Little Advice Book. Sorry, L&L will have to wait,but there i always \"Mothers Day\"."}, {"response": 20, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (17:45)", "body": "My God Donna! I thought I spent money but you win hands down!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (20:59)", "body": "Lisa this has been since August 1996 until Feb 1997. A few things were Christmas gifts."}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (21:11)", "body": "I think Julian Sands is probably tall enough to play John. He seemed pretty darned tall in that elevator! The woman author who acts as Col. Fitzwilliam is called Miriam Weissman. I'd love to see Kathy Bates or Sylvia Miles playing here -- that would be a scream! And who to play Sasha/Wickham? Julia Roberts? Courtney Cox? (trying to think of someone .REALLY THIN here)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Gabrie", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (15:15)", "body": "Amy2 I believe you!! :) Would have loved to have the elevator experience to judge from :) Kathy Bates sounds like a great choice for Miriam... I thought about Courtney Love as Sasha.. has the experice anyhow for that part.. or Kate Moss? (just for looks.. not sure about her acting capabilities?? ) The more I think about it the more I want to see this film!!..."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:24)", "body": "after following this thread I am determined; I must read 'Lions and Liquorice' ! I will be in LA for 10 days later this month; any idea whether I'd be able to pick up a copy, or should I go straight to Amazon now..."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:43)", "body": "Oh boy, Amy2 has everybody all hopped up again."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:44)", "body": "Well, I shall not be sent on a fool's errand again. (kidding, kind of)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (10:55)", "body": "Amy, to quote C3PO, \"It's my lot in life!\" You know, I think you would LOVE Lions and Liquorice -- it's really a well-written blast, if you can get past the language and (fairly explicit) sex. Anna, I haven't seen the book in L.A., sorry to say, and though we have wonderful movie memorabilia places, our book stores are only so-so. So you might want to do the amazon.com thing."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (12:47)", "body": "Amy2; I am convinced. I shall hie myself to the amazon site to procure mine own copy."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:29)", "body": "Amy2, what's the matter with the language in L&L? And, I must admit, I love the night of the roll in the surf and the hotel! I thought it was beautifully written - and I could just see CF having a ball acting the part! The language is no worse than what they use in Fever Pitch by what I hear!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:51)", "body": "Inko, it doesn't bother me in the least -- I work in Hollywood. But I know there are others who post to the Board who are more sensitive to these issues, so I thought I'd mention it. Well-written sex scenes to me, even when they're graphic, don't make me blink an eye. That's why I love John Updike so much!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "andrea", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (14:25)", "body": "Hello all-- This is only my second posting to this group, and the first in the Spring conference, so bear with me. Going to Amazon.com is indeed delightful, but may I suggest checking out local library sources for Lions and Liquorice? I just this moment placed my electronic request through Ohiolink ( a consortium of university and college libaries). I am using an academic system but public libaries may also have a copy. PS. to Ohio residents: There are two copies in the Ohiolink system - one is still available! PPS. Although strong language and explicit situations do not bother me (too much) it is good to know this ahead of time. Thank you to the original poster. Andrea in southwest Ohio (who is not yet six and thirty)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:16)", "body": "Amy2, I just finished with the letter and a weird thought crossed my mind! I wonder if Kate Fenton knows or talked to Andrew Davies since the letter is in the same order as his! Either that or she wrote it after seeing P&P2! But the publication date in my copy is 1995, so there wouldn't have been time."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:43)", "body": "Hi Andrea, nice to meet you!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (08:45)", "body": "After reading your reviews and comments, I decided to try and get a copy for myself. No one in the Boston area has it, so I must special order it. Now, I need to wait a month!! and that's the quickest any bookstore thinks it will arrive. At least this time the book can be found. When I tried to order Darcy's Story, each person looked at me like I was crazy!"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (16:53)", "body": "Amy2, do you have the \"End Credits\" in your copy. They are hilarious!! Especially, Best Boy = Ian Carmichael; Grip = What on earth's a Grip anyhow!!;-)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (00:32)", "body": "What on earth's a Grip anyhow!!;-) A grip is a stage hand - they move the scenery around - set it up, take it down..."}, {"response": 37, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (10:48)", "body": "Yeah, and the Key Grip is the lead grip. Inko, I didn't notice that Mary Hamilton's letter to Nick ALSO reverses the order, jut like P&P2! You know, I have to wonder if Fenton _was_ influenced by the filming of P&P2 -- she just seems so wickedly clued into what goes on on a film set. As far as inter-library loan: in the state of California, forget it. The UC system won't let you borrow books from another campus unless you're a student; and I don't think there's any intra-branch x-fers from the L.A. s stem. That's why I went the amazon.com route."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:41)", "body": "Alums always have access, Amy...aren't you a member of CAA?"}, {"response": 39, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (20:14)", "body": "Yup! But when I went to UCLA with my extra-special card, they told me to forget about intra-campus transfers unless I was _currently_ a student. There's been a lot of cost-cutting in the UC system, so there you go! The better to pay for the Regent's yachts, right?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (19:58)", "body": "Has anyone read any other books by Kate Fenton? Are they as well-written and as much fun as L&L?"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (20:25)", "body": "Amy2, funny you should ask. Yesterday I was at our public library and looked up Kate Fenton - was sent to another branch where they had a big-print copy of L&L and also Colors of Snow, so asked them to hold the latter. In the meantime, went to a bookstore to use up a Christmas gift certificate and found \"Colors of Snow\" in paperback, so bought it! Haven't started it yet, and probably won't for a while, but I'll let you know when I get around to it."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (10:29)", "body": "I just ordered this book from Bookserve ( http://www.bookserve.com ) and it was only $20.95 (US). They really go out of their way for us Austen fans over there. When we were trying to track down the EMMA book on tape read by Jeremy Northam, they were the only ones that were able to find it for us."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "I have a general question about places like bookserve and amazon books on the web: how do they do the billing?"}, {"response": 44, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (15:23)", "body": "I have a general question about places like bookserve and amazon books on the web: how do they do the billing? I haven't ordered from Bookserve, but Amazon has a secure server through which you can enter your Credit Card number. This is done once and thereafter it is on file. Alternatively, you can place the order and call them with Credit Card or send them a check or money order number."}, {"response": 45, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (20:05)", "body": "I've used amazon.com and the U.K. Internet Bookstore on the Web, and they're both great! It's a wonderful way to be able to pull from a catalog of millions of books. They're both fast services - usually deliver within 1-2 weeks."}, {"response": 46, "author": "LaDemoiselle", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (16:15)", "body": "I've heard about this book, and I already feel like I missing something. I will have to order it ASAP!!! Then, I'll get back to you on it..."}, {"response": 47, "author": "LaDemoiselle", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (16:17)", "body": "Sorry,it's me again. I just caught a major typo on my previous message!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:35)", "body": "Typos, typos, who's got the typos! Just \"Doing That Bingley Thing again. :-)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (22:34)", "body": "Just got an e-mail from Amazon books - my L&L is on the way, about 8 days after I placed the order on the Web."}, {"response": 50, "author": "Gabrie", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (06:55)", "body": "Amy:: Regarding other books by Kate Fenton, Dancing with the Pipers is really great, same humour and engaging personalities, highly recommend it :) I stayed up all night just to finish it.."}, {"response": 51, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (13:27)", "body": "Thanks Gabriella. I definitely want to read Fenton's other books -- she's a lot of fun. Anyone know if she's popular in England? Or is she as obscure there as she is in the States? austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 213, "subject": "Col.Fitzwilliam in love with Lizzy?", "response_count": 106, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (22:36)", "body": "I have mused at why Lizzy didn't fall for him more: very pleasing manners, very good conversation, good looking, Lizzy's prior preference for a certain officer, his attentions, ..."}, {"response": 2, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (00:29)", "body": "An alliance between Col. Fitzwilliam and Lizzie is something in which the Tenant book would be quite inaccurate to the times in proposing. As a younger son of a titled family, the Col. could not consider marrying a woman who did not have a fortune of her own, and Lizzie would have been well aware of this. A light flirtation is all that was ever likely to come out of their acquaintance."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (05:32)", "body": "If I recall correctly, Emma Tennant suggested more than mere flirtation between Lizzy and Fitzwilliam. Personally , it was an appalling book to read. I thought Fitzwilliam was interested in her, being a pretty face and sharing lively conversation with. But much later in the visit, he commented on his habits of expense that made it impossible for him to marry as he chose. Perhaps he too had a story to tell.. of overcoming attraction to Lizzy and realising (being a more respectable and sensible man than Wickham) that it was impossible not to marry into wealth - and admitted it to Lizzy in their stroll (he wanted to let her know.. if his case had been ifferent - she might have been his heart's desire to). I cannot tell on Elizabeth's part - perhaps Fitzwilliam was nothing out of the ordinary gentleman type person - no additional attraction like in Darcy."}, {"response": 4, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (06:36)", "body": "I always got the impression (from the book) that Fitzwilliam was quite attracted to E, and that if things had been different he might have proposed to her (ie if she had had money). There's a brief conversation between them when he is talking about the trials of being a younger son and of not being able to marry where he chooses. E asks herself \"Is this meant for me?\" and blushes. So I think that she at least thought the Colonel liked her and was trying in the gentlest possible way to explain why he couldn't do anything about it."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "I agree with you, Kate. I think Fitzwilliam would have pursued his interest if either party had had wealth. As it was though, I think that both he and Lizzie had the silent understanding, even before he says his piece, that any union between them would be impossible."}, {"response": 6, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (13:06)", "body": "But don't you think that maybe secretly he knew about his cousin's feelings for Lizzy? The reason I bring this up is because at the piano when Lizzy says to Col. that Darcy will have him hate her (I don't have the book in front of me) and Darcy retaliates by letting her know that she does not intimidate him. Right there I got the feeling that Col knew something was up with his cousin. Now I could be wrong, but MHO."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (16:01)", "body": "He must have known. Darcy's strange behavior on that first visit to Hunsford; his obvious admiration during the piano scene. Poor Fitzwilliam couldn't have been totally dense!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:07)", "body": "OK here's some more fairly obvious clues from the book. At the first dinner at Rosings (Ch31) Col F was really glad to see them (ie theHunsford crowd) \"Mrs Collins's pretty friend had moreover caught his fancy very much\" Later, re his regular visits to Hunsford, Lizzy notes his \"evident admiration of her\" which reminds her of Wickham. Also, Charlotte sometimes imagine Lizzy marrying him. Yeah, and I am prepared to admit he might have had some inkling of Darcy's situation - especially because D keeps putting off their departure."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (18:59)", "body": "Found P&P and read thru chpt 33 again. I tried to, but cannot get the impression that F. had that inkling of D's situation. It sounded rather more like F was himself so caught up with his own 'handicap' that he didn't realise D's interest in the same person. Lady Catherine was obviously amazed at how much attention Lizzy was getting from both F & D."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (20:12)", "body": "I agree with Laura...I think he must have seen the looks that Darcy and Lizzy gave each other and the bantering back and forth had to have given him a clue of the tension between them. He may have felt some similar feelings but I believe he would have backed off if he even had an inkling that Darcy was interested in Lizzy....or even if he might now approve of Lizzy....Darcy was a strong and forceful man and in he himself said that he tried to stay away from ridicule from others....I would imagine his fri nds and close family would have respected him and held his opinion in high esteem. He seemed to be the one they all looked to (example is Bingley wanting his blessing in his relationship with Jane) for approval. I believe that Col. Fitzwilliam would want the same from Darcy."}, {"response": 11, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (20:31)", "body": "[But don't you think that maybe secretly he knew about his cousin's feelings for Lizzy?] He must have known. Darcy's strange behavior on that first visit to Hunsford; his obvious admiration during the piano scene. Poor Fitzwilliam couldn't have been totally dense! Ditto! Or, perhaps he could not help but think that Elizabeth showed no particular partiality toward Darcy. And she may have even seemed friendlier to Fitzwilleam since she just had more to say to him than she did Darcy. ('I like her and I think she likes me, but he likes her....}"}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (11:01)", "body": "The way that the piano scene is played in P&P2 -- Lizzie definitely seems to be flirting with Darcy, though she might not even realize it. Surely Fitzwilliam would pick up that there is SOMETHING between these two!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "Lets totally ignore the mini series and go by what Austen wrote, I still feel that Col Fitzwilliam knew of Darcy's great admiration for this young woman. They way he tells Lizzy how he has heard a great deal about her. When she says it must have been all bad he says no indeed. He knew exactly why Darcy would be talking up a storm of Lizzy."}, {"response": 14, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "The Colonel is clearly NOT in love with Miss Bennett at all. You simply have a pleasant sort of attraction, not serious. Not even to the level of flirting. Just good drawing-room and park banter. Col Fitzwilliam is merely better at good conversation than Darcy. He's no fool and like most men is probably sensible to some kind of attraction between is friend Darcy and Elizabeth, and would not want to interfere in any sense. Darcy has NOT explicitly revealed his feelings about Elizabeth to FItzwilliam! Of course there is the second, but major consideration of money. The Colonel merely esteems her, likes her. He cannot consider any serious relationship with Miss Bennett."}, {"response": 15, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:22)", "body": "No but he does fancy her. But he knows of the attraction between Darcy and Lizzy. He is not a nikumpoop(sp). Lizzy is described as being very quick and lively. Of course, Fitzwilliam's countenance is much nicer than Darcy. In any situation, Fitzwilliam feels comfortable, Darcy does not."}, {"response": 16, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:59)", "body": "Laura -- In the book, as I recall, Fitzwilliam does not tell Elizabeth that he has heard a great deal about her, or even that Darcy has mentioned her. We cannot be certain that she was ever discussed by the two cousins, before, during or after the Rosings visit. I agree that he may suspect that Darcy is attracted to Elizabeth, however, and he may figure out more on their return trip (back to London?)."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (02:19)", "body": "These last few postings had me diving for the novel again.. yes, Fitwilliam does not mention having heard about her from Darcy. Though, I think Darcy said (when in Pemberly) to Lizzy, that his sister had heard much of her. The bantering between Darcy and Lizzy at the pianoforte sounded more like a pair of acquaintances (that didn't get along) power-playing in idle conversation. \"You mean to frighten me, Mr Darcy.. though your sister does play so well..\" \"..you could not really believe me to entertain any design of alarming you..you find great enjoyment in ocassionally professing opinions which in fact are not your own.\" \"It is very ungenerous in you to mention all that you know to my disadvantage..\" It ends with Darcy 'giving-in' to her with a praise at her music. This must have amused Fitzwilliam, but he would have known Darcy, with all his wealth and connection, would & could not fall for her. Afterall, Darcy had prevented Bingley from such a similar connection and Fitzwilliam knew of that. So I don't think Fitzwilliam suspected Darcy's attraction. He might have thought about her for himself only as good, lively conversation, since he too knew the value of a good income."}, {"response": 18, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (06:38)", "body": "Serena, I think that's a goold point about the wealth thing. Although don't forget that in Bingley's case there were objections against Jane's family. F doens't know that Lizzy is from the same family, doesn't know how bad her relatives are. While he knows HE has to maney for money, he knows that Darcy, is, in a sense, freed by his wealth to marry where he likes, and \"He likes to have his own way very well\" according to F. So I'm not so sure that F would have thought the Darcy would refuse to consider Lizzy."}, {"response": 19, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (11:14)", "body": "Going straight by the book, we know that Fitzwilliam explicitly gives Lizzie a big hint that he CAN'T marry her; that Darcy keeps postponing their departure from Rosings; that there is some bantering between Darcy & Lizzie at the piano in Fitzwilliam's presence. Had Fitzwilliam ever seen Darcy so lively before in conversation with a young woman? I still maintain he would have been a complete idiot if he hadn't picked up that there was SOMETHING between these two!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (13:58)", "body": "If you don't mind me adding, that my overall impression was that the Col was attracted to Lizzie. He was probably bemoaning his fate as a 2nd son, and said too much, belying his attraction. In general, I find most men unaware of unspoken feelings. Do you think they were more sensative almost two centuries ago?!!:-) (ha, ha)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (19:33)", "body": "Noted Kate, but Fitzwilliam must be aware that Lizzy cannot be from an 'acceptable' enough family for Darcy; she lives with the parish family as a friend of his wife and cousin of Mr Collins. Can I assume that Col. Fitzwilliam would have known about the family's desire of Darcy and Anne's 'engagement'? His comment to Lizzy (during their piano chat)that he would like to know how Darcy acts in public perhaps showed that he saw no difference in Darcy's behaviour at Rosings that night with any other night wh n he was amongst relations. Personally I'm inclined to agree with Yeago resp#20 that Fitwilliam was thinking of his attraction to Lizzy. I like this topic very much, there;s so much to speculate on .. thank you for introducing it Jessica."}, {"response": 22, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (20:44)", "body": "what about Fitzwilliam's comment the first time meeting Lizzy that Darcy is lively enough in other places? can't remember if that was a P&P2ism or in the book, but the Col. is obviously meant to be aware that Darcy finds Rosings generally stifling. His not knowing how Darcy behaved among strangers isn't too surprising, though, since he (Darcy) doesn't tend to go out with masses of his non-acquaintances. I have no idea what my point is"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:14)", "body": "Wouldn't Col Fitzwilliam have thought it strange to have Darcy want him to go and confirm all he had told Lizzy in the letter after the first proposal? Why would Darcy care what Lizzy thought? There has to be something there between them. The book does not say whey Mr. Darcy and the Col. were waiting for her at Rosings....but the Col. stays for at least an hour waiting....either Darcy had asked him to wait or he wanted to wait...why?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:17)", "body": "I always thought that Col F. waited at Hunsford for Lizzy because he wanted to say goodby to her personally. Although I see the possibility that Darcy might have asked him to see her, that seems awfully awkward. Hard to say for certain."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Serena", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (02:25)", "body": "Cindy, I think you just supported the point that Col Fitzwilliam was not aware that Darcy was interested in Lizzy since he appeared more lively that one night at Rosings. (when Lizzy played) BUT unfortunately, that was not in the book (unless I missed it) Col Fitzwilliam verifying the truths in the letter - I think that was meant as a reassurance to Lizzy in case she doubted Darcy's sincerity. I agree with Kathleen here, I doubt if Dacry had told Col. Fitwilliam to wait around at Hunsford parsonage to reaffirm it. Fitz. just wanted to see her before he left - afterall, the last thing he heard about Lizzy was that she was indisposed to dine at Rosings. It could have a gesture of good breeding to see her for the last time, seeing how he had 'charmed' her th oughout his visit."}, {"response": 26, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (09:20)", "body": "]he appeared more lively that one night at Rosings In Darcy's story, Aylmer has F comment to D that he appeared more animated than usual at the Rosings dinner. But as I said on the DS Oops thread, this may be misleading, becuase in P&P, Austen has Charlotte, at the end of Ch32, noticing that Fitzwilliam laughs at Darcy for being \"stupid\" (meaning silent), suggesting this was unlike his normal demeanour. Aylmer has F and D discussElizabeth, with F slying suggesting that Darcy might be interested, Darcy implying that F is interested, and F admitting that money made her unavailable to him, but not to Darcy."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (09:27)", "body": "Since Darcy specifically told Lizzy that she could apply to Col. Fitz for the truth of the facts related in his letter, and he knew that the Col. was, like him, planning to leave later that day, he must have asked his cousin to stick around for a while in case Lizzy wanted to question him. It must have been awkward, though, for him to make this request of the Col.--what reason would he give? But he could hardly expect Lizzy to apply to Fitz by letter."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (09:32)", "body": "I love the way the word \"stupid\" was used then. Like at the Meryton assembly."}, {"response": 29, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (09:44)", "body": "I'm still not sure Darcy would have said anything to Fitzwilliam about it. It seems to me that he didn't really think that E would feel comfortable discussing such private and embarrassing matters with F. I think he put it in the letter to give him a bit more truth and power to what he was saying. ie \" I want you to know I'm not making this up. F knows all about it\" But I think he really believes she won't ask F, that the power of his own words ( and her embarrassment) would be enough. I don't think e would have gone through the embarrassment of discussing it with F on the very small chance that Lizzy would be brazen enough to bring it up with him. I think he knows she is too well-bred for that."}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (11:15)", "body": "Kate, I agree with you. I don't think Darcy actually mentioned anything to Col. F. about the contents of the letter -- he was just using the Colonel's name as another authority. It seems to me that Darcy's being \"stupid\" at Rosings and Hunsford shows that HE'S ACTING DIFFERENTLY AROUND LIZZIE, which is itself a little hint to Fitzwilliam, yes? I have to ask again: _When_ has Fitzwilliam seen Darcy so lively around a young woman, as D. is during the piano scene? Whenever Darcy is around Lizzy at Rosin s, he's either thrown into silence, or makes an attempt to be lively to match her. Since this isn't his usual behavior there, wouldn't F. know that something's up?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "kate", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "Yes, Amy, I think he would."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "Wait an hour at Rosings just to say goodbye because of good breeding? I don't think so. That is a long time to be in the company of Mr. Collins just to say goodbye to someone because of manners...especially since Darcy left and he stayed."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (12:38)", "body": "What a fun little topic! Personally I think Col. F. liked Elizabeth and was definitely attracted to her. Now he should have been aware that Darcy was not acting himself but as someone else posted, I think Col F. was too caught up in this infatuation to notice. We have to be careful in trying to separate the novel from the adaptation. In the novel, Col F. was about thirty, not handsome , but in person and address most truly the gentleman. Also in their initial meeting, Lizzy and Col. F. do not have the conversation in the novel which they do in P&P2. However, Col F. makes an interesting comment during the Rosing's banter which was not in P&P2. When Lizzy asks him why Darcy is ill qualified to recommend himself to strangers, Col F. says \"I c n answer your question without applying to him. It is because he will not give himself the trouble.\" NOw clearly Darcy is putting himself to the trouble of speaking to Elizabeth at that time. Regarding Col F. hanging around Hunsford, he wanted to bid Elizabeth goodbye for himself. He's saying good bye to his pretty bantering partner. I don't think Darcy said a word about the Georgiana affair. Bottom line, he may have noticed Darcy's altered behavior but Lizzy wasn't responding to Darcy; Lizzy was responding to him and he was enjoying it."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (19:11)", "body": "I think Col. Fitzwilliam was trying to help his cousin and friend. His cousin had spoken of Lizzy, so he knew that his cousin had an attachment. I think he was trying to check out to see if she would be an appropriate person (she passed the test I think). I think he was really just trying to help, and have some fun conversation at a place that was dreadfully boring."}, {"response": 35, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "I don't believe this was in the book either, but wouldn't Col F. have noticed Darcy's great agitation when he returned to Rosings the infamous night of the proposal? Surely he could detect his agitation of mind, and guess the source?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (02:56)", "body": "In response to Amy2 : \"When has Fitzwilliam seen Darcy so lively around a young woman, as D. is during the piano scene? Whenever Darcy is around Lizzy at Rosings, he's either thrown into silence, or makes an attempt to be lively to match her. Since this isn't his usual behavior there, wouldn't F. know that something's up?\" End of Chpt 32 :\"Why Mr Darcy came so often and not speak.Mrs Collins knew not what to make of him. Col Fitz's occassionally laughing at his stupidity, proved that he was generally different, (ie. generally lively) which her (Mrs Collins) knowledge of him could not have told her.. The silence bit is perhaps a puzzle to Fitzwilliam. I still cannot find anything in the novel to indicate that Fitzwilliam was aware of Darcy's regard for Lizzy. He seems 'above' such suspicions being too preoccupied with her."}, {"response": 37, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (14:24)", "body": "I agree with Amy. Col F knows his cousin's behaviour and must have seen the differences Darcy exhibited when he was around Lizzie. He must have had an inkling that there was at least an attraction on Darcy's part or conscious of the fact that Lizzie was the first woman who stirred up this kind of reaction in Darcy. As for Col F being in love with Lizzie, I think he, like Darcy was attracted to her but soon realized that he couldn't let it develop into love because he was aware that he had to marry for mon y and not for love."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (21:00)", "body": "Col F knows his cousin's behaviour. Lisa, this has just crystallised something that has nagged me for a long time.Darcy and Fitzwilliam are cousins, Fitzwilliam has seen him in the company of his family, and has heard him boast of saving his friend Bingley from a most improper marriage. He is also Georgiana's guardian,and knows all about the Ramsgate affair.That doesn't mean that he knows or understands Darcy well.He has never struck me as being a particularly perceptive person, for all his pleasantness, and I cannot find anything in the bo k to to suggest that he did put 2and 2 together as regards Darcy and Lizzie."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (03:12)", "body": "That's exactly it Caroline, there's nothing in the book to indicate his 'awareness'. I went through those chapters so many times since this topic was raised and would have loved to have discovered a love-triangle. Even if Lizzy had checked-out the facts of the letter with Col. Fitz., the topics raised would not have indicated a marriage proposal had been made. Perhaps Col Fitz would have thought it to be merely Lizzy's clarification about Wickham's character, arising from her being newly acquainted with him. (Fitz being one of the executors of the late Darcy's will)."}, {"response": 40, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (11:52)", "body": "IMHO -- I believe that the Col. was indeed smitten with Lizzie, not in love, just simply smitten. In turn Lizzie was smitten with the Col. I had the opinion that his sole purpose is to show a contrast between himself and Darcy. The way in which the Col. so eloquently lets Lizzie know that there could never be anything between them so severly contrasts the way in which Darcy proposes. They each more or less say the same thing regarding her monetary means, but the Col. is all ease and politeness here as Darcy is insulting."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (14:00)", "body": "Smitten, hmmmmm, I'll give you smitten in the sense that he reacted to a lively attracted woman. I still maintain that he was astute enough to know his cousin was attracted to Lizzy (comments about hearing praise about her ). I may probably be picking this up from the adaptation, not the novel."}, {"response": 42, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (21:17)", "body": "If Col. F. wasn't aware that _something_ was up between Darcy and Miss Bennet, that would mean he's a bit of a doofus. Wouldn't he at least be as perceptive as Charlotte, who likes to imagine that Darcy IS in love with her fr Maybe JA meant to give us a hint with her \"laughing at his stupidity\" line. I like to give the poor Colonel a little credit, I guess. . ."}, {"response": 43, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (21:19)", "body": "That should read \"friend.\" Grrr. I HATE 28.8. Back to the T1 tomorrow!!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (00:07)", "body": "Candace, that's a fresh approach. Col Fitzwilliam presence as a contrast to Mr Darcy. I like it. Though Charlotte did suspect Darcy and though Fitz. did laugh at Darcy's 'stupidity' - I still cannot convince myself that he suspected anything between Darcy and Lizzy, doofus or not.."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (08:21)", "body": "Didn't Charlotte say something to Lizzy about Mr Darcy's attentions at Lucas Lodge? Was that in the book? Unless Darcy said someting of his attraction to ColF, he probably wouldn't suspect anything serious. After all Lizzie is beneath Darcy (But would ColF know That, her staying at the rectory and all). I really think women are more perceptive than men in these matters. Esp back then, their sole goal was to get married, they had to keep an eye out!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (09:26)", "body": "I do believe that the Col had some interest in Lizzy, but not in love. But his ease of manner made Darcy jealous - we keep forgetting that Darcy is shy. He surrounds himself with outgoing people - Wickham, the Col. , Bingley - so he does not have to talk. When he meets Lizzy, it's the first time he tries to join in conversations. He is at a loss and tries to imitate his cousin. I also believe the Col was clueless about Darcy's feelings. Unlike Charlotte, he did not see what was going on because he did not know to how to look. Remember, Charlotte declared herself unromantic - marriage was a good business deal. She was Darcy had some interest in Lizzy and was hoping for a excellent match for her friend."}, {"response": 47, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (11:10)", "body": "Yes, in the book Charlotte does mention her suspicions to Lizzie. But Lizzie just laughs it off, because she tells of Darcy's silences whenever they meet. Are we saying that women (Charlotte) are more perceptive than men (the Colonel) in picking up on the vibes of romance?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Mari", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (12:31)", "body": "I don't know if it is all women, or rather Charlotte in particular, but isn't it interesting that someone who married for totally pragmatic reasons, who never thought to wait for or expect love, is the most perceptive about the symptoms of interest and love for her friend. She was on to Darcy's attentions, and judged their source rightly, from the time of the evening at Lucas Lodge \"Mr. Darcy certainly looks at you a great deal, Lizzy.\" I think that she always believed that Darcy was attracted to Lizzy. She knew her friend well, and brought up the topic to see if her friend was yet aware of his attentions, and her own feelings. Her friend's negative response didn't convince her that there was no interest, just that her friend wasn't yet ready to own up to and/or discuss the matter. But like a good firend, she hung in there, and asked again later, in case Lizzy wanted or needed a sounding board."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (14:21)", "body": "If Charlotte could notice in one meeting that Darcy was looking at Lizzy a great deal...wouldn't the Col. have noticed something after being together several times? I think that he would have been intuitive...being that he is a single male in the company of young women. Even if the Col. knew that Lizzie's place in society was beneath his own...he could certainly flirt and notice the attentions of the ladies and other gentleman that were around him."}, {"response": 50, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (18:57)", "body": "Didn't Col. Fitzwilliam strike anyone else as being quite oblivious to much happening around him, except for his own interest in Lizzy? And how she highly entertained him with her conversational ease? Perhaps Jane Asuten didn't intend for him to be dwelled on in such detail and (suggested above by someone) he was merely meant as a comparison to Darcy. Shoot me anyone??"}, {"response": 51, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:00)", "body": "IMO, the Col. must have something was up with Darcy. After all, Darcy had \"brought\" the Col. with him to Rosings, and after Mr. Collin's visit, the \"gentlemen accompanied him\" back to the parsonage. At which point, Charlotte makes her remark about Darcy \"would have never come so soon to wait upon her\". Wouldn't the Col. have been a bit suspicious about such a quick return visit? Surely it would have been Darcy who would have instigated the visit. After all, only Darcy knows anyone else at the parsonage, a d surely when the Col. meets Elizabeth, Charlotte, and Maria, I would give him the credit to know something was in the air with Darcy in regards to Elizabeth. After all, Mr. Collins is the head of the household at Hunsford, and very few people, esp. Darcy would be willing to put up with more hours of conversation with the man. Finally, why did Darcy go to Rosings and take the Col. with him in the first place?"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:16)", "body": "Angela, Darcy's coldness at the first return visit to Hunsford might have thrown doubt to any suspicion, if any, which might have arisen from this visit. The next week passed without Mr Darcy visiting again, though Col. Fitz himself called at the parsonage during that week. Perhaps each cousin called without the other knowing of it, since Darcy was so smitten by Lizzy after the piano scene at Rosings, his personal visits only started then, when he realised (from Rosings) that Col Fitz was growing too 'com irtable' with his Lizzy. I don't know what I'm leading to.."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (22:43)", "body": "Finally, why did Darcy go to Rosings and take the Col. with him in the first place? Darcy and Col. Fitizwilliam* (*is Lady C. brothers son) are Lady C. nephews and they visit her once a year and it happens to be the same time Lizzie would be at Hunsford."}, {"response": 54, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (23:09)", "body": "Okay, time for my 2 cents. As someone who also doesn't perform easily for strangers, I fully agree that it's not at all unusual for Darcy to be drawn to more-lively people. Or rather, to some more-lively people. Caroline Bingley certainly seemed to enjoy her social life very much, but I can't say that Darcy was drawn to her. There are a number of extreme Es that I love to be around. Something about their manner helps to move me further down the scale, draws me out of my usual reserve, even to the point where it might be observed that I'm \"lively enough\" in their company. (About a year-and-a-half ago -- on my birthday, no less -- we lost a dear friend to his fight with cancer. He was such a person. I could easily be absolutely animated when he was around. Totally at ease. Very comfortable.) Even so, regardless of my level of familiarity and comfort, there are some situations which I can't say that I particularly enjoy. (Rosings?) A Vegas Night which my husband and I attended comes to mind. I appreciated the enjoyment of others, but eventually I had to get outside to listen to the crickets chirping. Eventually, the husband (who had been entirely enjoying himself) came round to see where I had gotten off to, realizing that it wouldn't take me terribly long to seek out a quieter corn r. (something like Extrovert-Overload?) I guess I'm arguing (yes, in a round-about way) that it wouldn't be a given that Col. Fitzwilliam would necessarily have thought beyond Darcy's actions to conclude he had affections for Lizzy. Just because he had noticed an alteration in Darcy's behavior, Col. Fitzwilliam may have been having too good a time himself to read anything into Darcy's reactions. Not that he's a doofus. Not that he's insensitive. Not that he's \"typically male\". oh, I got rather long-winded, didn't I sorry"}, {"response": 55, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (23:10)", "body": "that may have been more than 2 cents there'll be no charge"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (00:41)", "body": "Thank you Cindy, I like you more and more.."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (07:02)", "body": "Cindy, I know exactly what you mean about E overload. I've escaped more than one crowded room myself for such a cricket breather."}, {"response": 58, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (11:02)", "body": "Vegas night? I'm there -- bring on the neon!! Getting back to poor Col F.: I guess our opinion on whether he knew something was up with Darcy and Lizzy depends upon the amount of credit we're willing to give him as a perceptive (or not) person. JA is pretty mum on this topic in the book, it seems. But as someone mentioned above, Charlotte, ostensibly the last person in the world to be keyed into Romance, picks up almost _immediately_ on Darcy's feelings for Lizzy. IS it possible that Col F. knows mo e than he reveals?"}, {"response": 59, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (11:15)", "body": "Cindy, I agree with you completely, including the Vegas night for I too do not perform easily to strangers. The first time I heard Darcy say that, my heart opened to him because I knew exactly what he was thinking and what he would try to do. Thank you for stating your opinion much more clearly than I did."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (11:21)", "body": "Charlotte, ostensibly the last person in the world to be keyed into Romance, Oh, the poor dear -- put this plainly, it does make one almost weep for her!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (11:40)", "body": "I forgot to add - I don't think the Col. is in love with Lizzy. She was an unexpected pleasure, I'm sure. We know that Darcy makes the visit to Rosings annually, but not with great pleasure. And we can assume that Fitzwilliam feels the same. He also makes it very clear that he must marry a woman with some wealth. He enjoys Lizzy's company, and who would not in comparison to what is available. But because they are companionable that we see Darcy struggling to join in their conversations and captured izzy's attention."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (12:55)", "body": "My own little question and answer session: Q: Anglela Finally, why did Darcy go to Rosings and take the Col. with him in the first place? A: Serena Perhaps Jane Asuten didn't intend for him to be dwelled on in such detail and (suggested above by someone) he was merely meant as a comparison to Darcy. No bullets from me, Serena, just a gently nodding head."}, {"response": 63, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:31)", "body": "Just to repeat... Charlotte is Lizzy's best friend, even more so than Jane, at least in the book. She would be the one to understand her best, and to look out for her interests. Col FittzW is Darcy's cousin, not his best buddy. None of Darcy's other relatives understand him, not Lady C, not Anne. Darcy is giving out ambiguous signals, doesn't understand himself. Why should the colonel be any more perceptive? Even Lizzy, who goes out of her way to tell Darcy where she walks so that he might avoid her, is totally baffled when he keeps 'accidentally' meeting her and then not talking to her. I also believe that if Col Fitz had any suspicion at all that Darcy thought of Lizzy as anything more than a pleasant diversion,like himself, he would have cleared out and given him some room to manoevre. And he would have let Darcy know it. As to why Darcy and Fitz were together at Rosings- well don't any of you go to the big house for a family gathering at Easter? And would you face the dragon alone if you could help it?They probably both \"had\" to be there- why not together?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (14:01)", "body": "face the dragon alone haha! Yes, I remember being dragged to many family functions. My Grandmother (we called her Grandmother) used to love to trip us kids with her cane! I loved her a great deal, but never understood her delight in seeing us fall!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (16:44)", "body": "Is doesn't mean that if a person is pragmatic in matters of the heart that she will be oblivious to love/attractions happening around her. I am suggesting that Charlotte's praticality is the result of being 'an old-maid' at 27 years and probably in 'defence' of her disappointment in the lack of finding true love. She has therefore taken the role of an observer in such matters thinking herself out of the limelight. What would be the ideal marrital age in a JA's novel?? about 20 or 21.. Charlotte's had a l t of time to think about it and grow insensitive for herself. Thoughts??"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (16:47)", "body": "Oops, the point I forgot to make above, would be that - if Charlotte had noticed Darcy's attraction, it doesn't mean that Col. Fitz would have seen it coming to. Also Charlotte being Lizzy's friend might count in her awareness."}, {"response": 67, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (21:14)", "body": "Am I the only one who has done a double take every time I read ColF above? I have to stop myself and think that it is Colonel Fitzwilliam not Colin Firth ."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (21:45)", "body": "Ann, I never saw that - AMAZING. I'll spell his name in full."}, {"response": 69, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:57)", "body": "You have to given Charlotte credit for honing in earlier than anyone else that Darcy is \"staring at Lizzy a great deal\"; that he might be in love with her. etc. As far as Colonel F.: I'm not really that close to my cousins, but in a social situation, I can tell if they're acting strangely or not. I still can't believe that the Colonel would be completely oblivious to the fact that Darcy is acting \"not himself\" whenever he's around Lizzy. I'll grant you he might not put two and two together & figure ou Darcy's heart, but he must know that _something_ is up. I just can't go on thinking the man is such a blunderpuss!!"}, {"response": 70, "author": "Serena", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (16:52)", "body": "Poor Colonel Fitzwilliam, if this could proven against him, might be in danger of becoming either doofus or blunderpuss. I really like the man, he was conversable and respectable. though not good looking (JA says so, I think). But Amy2 what gave you the impression from the book that Darcy was not behaving like himself and that the Colonel noticed it? We saw him in public places before but this was the first amongst relations of his own. Should Anne de Bourgh have a share of this discussion? Could she have noticed Mr Darcy and the Colonel behaving differently that night at Rosings too?? Did the Colonel pay her less attention this time because of Lizzy's presence?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:42)", "body": "In P&P2 ColF says that Darcy hardly speaks a word when he is in Kent though he is lively enough in other places--he does not say that Darcy is any more quiet on this visit to Kent than in the past. This seems to imply that Darcy's being so quiet is also a function of being around his Aunt, not just Lizzy."}, {"response": 72, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (00:11)", "body": "Let me try understand this (I'm losing myself) Was Darcy considered to be lively or not that one fateful night at Rosings with Lizzy present? I thought he was, more so than we ever saw of him from the start of the novel. But since Colonel Fitzwilliam corrected us on that point when he commented that Darcy was usually lively... Does this mean Darcy was usually lively even at Rosings and so Col Fitzwilliam could not suspect his interest in Lizzy that 'piano' night? or He was just always lively when he was out with his own acquaintances/ relations (except Rosings), but we know that's not the case when he was with the Bingleys. Help!! I'm going back to 'Emma' where everything makes sense."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (10:22)", "body": "Ann - Interesting point there is no reason to be lively at Rosings, what oppresive people live there. As others have pointed out, women threw themselves at him all the time. Wtih his position, power, looks etc, he didn't have to be \"lively\" anywhere. whats my point...? Maybe they are both (Col F and Darcy) are bored out of their cotton pickin' minds and Col F with nothing better to do, recognizes a small change in Darcy's behaviour. He strikes me as keepng his feelings close. They were probably somewhat close, as they are both Georgiana's guardians. (or something like that) They would have to be in contact somewhat regularly. Dont you think."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (10:42)", "body": "I think he and the Colonel were good friends. And as for being lively, it seems the kind of fun we have evidence of his having consisted of sarcastic barbs at lower beings. He liked feeding the Bingley sisters giggles for want of nothing better to do. Like Mr Bennet and Lizzy in a way, laughing at idiots. But he was ready for a change. Maybe he was bored with wry biting commentary. Wryness is fun but it makes you spiteful. He was ready for Lizzy's uncitified wit -- he needed a breath of fresh country air."}, {"response": 75, "author": "Ann", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:24)", "body": "Part of the confusion over Darcy's liveliness is due to the differences between the novel and the adaptation and Darcy's Story . In the adaptation (P&P2) Fitzwilliam says his cousin is lively other places than Rosings, suggesting that Darcy is not any more engaged than usual. In Darcy's Story , to add further to the confusion, Fitzwilliam comments that Lizzy seems to bring Darcy out more into the conversation, suggesting that Darcy is more engaged than usual. In the novel itself, I don't know if one could say that Darcy is any more lively than he was when he and Lizzy sparred at Netherfield during Jane's illness, suggesting that he is about the same as usual--though perhaps a bit distracted. I believe Austen also writes that, when Fitz and Darcy call at Hunsford, Darcy is unusually quiet and his cousin abuses him for it. So, Austen has him less lively, Darcy's Story has him more lively, and P&P2 has him about the same."}, {"response": 76, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (16:27)", "body": "With all that in mind, Ann - I wonder at Darcy not developing somewhat of a split- personality syndrome. Now I see where the confusion arose from. But Amy, wasn't Lizzy just as bitey in her jabs at Darcy?"}, {"response": 77, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (16:46)", "body": "] But Amy, wasn't Lizzy just as bitey in her jabs at Darcy? __ Well, yeah, but her particular acid was not blended with \"I am better than you.\" I guess that is the difference?"}, {"response": 78, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (10:55)", "body": "As far as Darcy's altered behavior at Rosings, which Col Fitzwilliam had the chance to observe: When Darcy visits Lizzie at Hunsford, he barely says a word. During the piano scene, he goes out of his way to \"view the fair performer's full countenance,\" banters with her in a most lively manner, COMPLIMENTS her on her playing and temperment (\"we neither of us perform to strangers\"), and can almost be accused of flirting. Remember too that HE KEEPS POSTPONIING THE DATE OF THEIR DEPARTURE, a very unusual occ rence, considering they're staying with Lady Catherine. So Darcy's lack of our excess of liveliness every time he's around Lizzy would seem to suggest to the observer that he's acting _differently_ than he normally does around young women. That's why I think that Col F. has to pick up on something!"}, {"response": 79, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (07:54)", "body": "Well, perhaps Col. Fitzwilliam would have noticed a very let-dwon person when they were leaving Rosings. It must have been hell for Col. Fitzwilliam to have had to travel with Darcy after that 'massive' rejection."}, {"response": 80, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (20:02)", "body": "Thank you Serena! This is a point made in DARCY'S STORY. I think I mentioned this somewhere above, but isn't it likely that Col F. would have run into Darcy that fateful night too? (not in the book but in P&P2). Would he have noticed Darcy's great disturbance of mind?"}, {"response": 81, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (18:38)", "body": "A very neat topic... Lynn in #61 - great name, by the way, and spelled the 'right' way! I agree with you that Colonel F. is not in love, but is enjoying his stay at Rosings much more than he expected to. Could it not be that he sees Darcy's behavior as the same thing, meaning Darcy is finding more to enjoy as well, as Lizzy is such a good conversationalist, so this could account for any strangeness in Darcy's behavior. Amy in #78, I see your point as well,and others have made it too, that Darcy keeps postponing the departure. But does this necessarily mean Fitzwilliam sees that Darcy is in love, or at least in like? I think maybe he might see it, because I would hate to think him stupid, in OUR sense of the word, but I'm not sure he would if he was just having a good time. I think probably Fitzwilliam stays at Hunsford so long simply because he had fun with Lizzy and wanted to let her know."}, {"response": 82, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (09:20)", "body": "Lynn Thanks for the compliment. But I must tell you, everytime I see your post, I do a double take, since that is my full name also. I think they stay on longer not only for fun with Lizzy, but Darcy's hope that he can pick up some of the Col. good spirits and easy manners. Everytime I watch him during the piano scene, I always think he is saying to himself 'What is Fitzwilliam thinking?, How can I introduce a lively conversation or keep one going?' I don't think he always wants to spar, but I thought he was in love with her already. As he will later demonstrate, he simply cannot verbally express himself very well."}, {"response": 83, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "I work with a Daryl Lamy! Any relation to anyone?"}, {"response": 84, "author": "Karen", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "Amy2 - Can't Col. Fitz. be a bright man simply not attuned to this particular situation? He may have abused Darcy for being silent but this isn't really out of character for Darcy. Col Fitz has seen Darcy both silent and more animated in front of women I suspect (even if the woman is only Caroline Bingley). Even if he noticed Darcy's greatly disturbed mind, that after Darcy has been rejected by Elizabeth. By that time, what can he say. \"Sorry cousin for flirting with the object of your desire.\" If Co Fitz couldn't marry Elizabeth why should he think that Darcy would consider her. The bottom line is though we may not agree on what Col Fitz should have known, if he didn't know it doesn't mean he's a dunce. He just wasn't even clued in to the situation to even notice it."}, {"response": 85, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (20:20)", "body": "The Clueless Colonel?"}, {"response": 86, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (21:08)", "body": "Men, in general, I think are not as clued into another man's emotional state as one woman is to another's. Charlotte is clued into Darcy's feelings, I don't think Col. Fitz had any idea - it just wouldn't have occurred to him, because men had so much more to think about--work, politics, the war, etc. I don't think that makes him a dunce, or stupid, or even clueless--just a man!!"}, {"response": 87, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (03:11)", "body": "I still like to believe that Col Fitz. was so much caught up with his attraction to Lizzy and how he as the younger son, couldn't end up with her that he did not notice Mr Darcy's behaviour. He was not clueless only that he saw nothing to strike him on Darcy's part. When Charlotte mentioned how Darcy was behaving unusual, the Col.reply implied that Darcy was not behaving any differently. He was accustomed to seeing Darcy sometimes animated and at other times quiet. So, what am I saying?? Darcy's behaviour was only out of character to us (the readers/viewers) because we have only seen him in unfamiliar surroundings. Perhaps he really does not performs to strangers."}, {"response": 88, "author": "Genette", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "On behalf of the poor Colonel: He probably needed time for reflection before he realized what was up with Darcy. I think he and Darcy went to Rosings for a boring visit with their overbearing Aunt and her mostly silent daughter just to be nice to members of their family. (I think Darcy would not visit Rosings alone unless he had intentions toward his cousin. He would have to know of his aunt's thoughts on that score.) So, anyway, the poor Colonel gets dragged along to try and keep everything civil. Lo and behold, the clergyman's wife has a pretty, witty, single friend visiting at the time of D&F's visit. D calls the shots. He's got wealth and clout after all. D directs them to call on the parsonage. Colonel goes along and finds he really likes the pretty girl. He probably is a bit \"smitten,\" but no more than that. He pulls what enjoyment he can from the whole visit. (For all his trouble, Darcy sneaks out one night and leaves him all alone to carry the evening with LadyC, Anne, and the Collinse .) In all likelihood, Darcy was rotten company on the carriage ride away from Rosings. D may or may not have given Colonel any hints as to why, but he surely gave the Colonel plenty of silent time to think and reflect. Colonel probably smacks himself in the head halfway down the road and says \"Darcy, I aplogize. I was so intent on my own enjoyment of Miss Bennet's company I did not realize your own attachment to her! What must you think of me?\" MHO"}, {"response": 89, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (18:14)", "body": "You know what, Genette? Everybody always talks about how reserved these people must have been -- their times, their class dictated it, &tc. But I can't help but believe you may be right in this case. I mean these guys were friends and relation. Wouldn't they have talked a little? Now I agree that Darcy probably would not have confided to his sister as Miss Aylmer has him do -- but maybe!"}, {"response": 90, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:29)", "body": "Since I'm all confused from the actual novel and adaptation, I will only venture to say I think (maybe) Miss Darcy was a little aware of her brother's attraction to Elizabeth. Perhaps not the proposal and refusal, but that he certainly thought highly of her and admired her exceedingly and would wish for his sister to meet her at some point."}, {"response": 91, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:39)", "body": "Genette, what you said all pretty much sits right with me. Thinking about this, though: \"Colonel probably smacks himself in the head halfway down the road and says \"Darcy, I aplogize...\" - Can you imagine what Darcy's reaction would have been? Ouch"}, {"response": 92, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:41)", "body": "] Now I agree that Darcy probably would not have confided to his sister as Miss Aylmer has him do -- but maybe! __ I really meant to say \"Not that I agree...\" I really don't know. Probably Darcy and Georgiana would not dish, but Darcy and the Col.? Like Genette said -- together on a long carriage ride? Would they rehash?"}, {"response": 93, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:47)", "body": "Might have been too embarrassing for Darcy to have to admit he was lo and behold, REFUSED!! Especially him being the silent, strong, confident Darcy he must have been looked upon by relations and friends."}, {"response": 94, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:12)", "body": "I don't know, ladies...I can only go by my own experiences with men. So often my husband gets together with his friends, when he comes home I ask him very important questions about them, their wives, or children. His answer is always the same \"I don't know, I didn't ask\". In which I always say the same thing \"What do you men talk about?!\" His reply: \"huh?\" Him and his friends are also so completely clueless when a woman comes on to them. By these personal experiences, I am of the thought that the Col. knew nothing and Darcy said nothing."}, {"response": 95, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (22:12)", "body": "Candace, that is SO true, and exactly the way my husband is, also."}, {"response": 96, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (02:06)", "body": "It must be a totally male thing to not ask pertaining questions and when they do know of something embarrassing or something not to mentioned in front of so and so, they let it out at the worse possible time, without a clue to having said anything wrong. So Candace, yes, I agree with the generalization. Not quite on this topic, but I just have to get it out of my system : poor Darcy, I feel for the underdog, must have been so low in spirits (first proposal/first rejection and so violently too), wonder if he's ever been interested in anyone else before Lizzy. Couldn't have been to much of a sweet-talker going by his disasterous choice of words in professing his love. But one can only sympathise with him, even Lizzy must have 'felt' bad, afterall, he was professing his love for and to her, though the method might have been arrogant. Wonder where he would have gone to after Rosings? But the Colonel could have just been the typical sterotyped-description of a man. I wonder if there are any male lurkers reading all this?"}, {"response": 97, "author": "Genette", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (21:56)", "body": "Okay, okay. I guess I didn't really redeem the poor Colonel far by supposing he might stumble all over Darcy's hurt feelings during that carriage ride away from Rosings (I'm not sure where they were headed, even after looking at my much tattered copy of P&P). I, like Amy, still maintain that these guys talked some. How else would the Colonel have known about Darcy's interference with Bingley? I love the idea of being a fly on the wall during that carriage ride. (I've read and enjoyed one fanfic that touched on it). However, I don't think that Darcy would be eager to share such an embarrassing and painful experience. I'm sure he would need time to process it for himself, first of all. But one thing I've always enjoyed about Darcy is that he's full of surprises. The way he confesses his admiration of Elizabeth to Caroline at the assembly...etc. (Off to drool, mind wandering in contemplation of Darcy.) Who knows who he might confide in or what he might say?"}, {"response": 98, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (22:46)", "body": "I think they might have talked some, too. More than Darcy and Georgina."}, {"response": 99, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (03:29)", "body": "Yes, he would have needed to spill out a little bit of his anguish and I guess the Colonel would have been the one. Yes, Hiliary more than he would have said to his sister. Don't think he could possibly have said anything to Bingley, especially after his own interference there. Poor Darcy, he must have been so tortured!! And no mates to hang out with, no pubs mentioned!! What a cruel situation Jane Austen put him in."}, {"response": 100, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (05:20)", "body": "I'm all astonishment, Genette on reading your comments and others on this Darcy Fitzwilliam relation. As a matter of fact I've been in that carriage for five days now being confined and giving a confined opinion on what that fly might possibly have witnessed; might even appear in fanfic.(Is advertising allowed Amy? I just could not refrain after reading this for the first time, to looking for his first name.)"}, {"response": 101, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (05:43)", "body": "Oh please do let your fly into FanFic, Ann2. It could be the beginning of a series: Carriage Ruminations."}, {"response": 102, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (06:13)", "body": "AG!! I have actually been pondering something of the sort Amy, although in some following carriages, they would maybe be more agreeably engaged ;-). This first one (working name: Via dolorosa is however filled with torment, just like you, Cheryl and myself like it)"}, {"response": 103, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (15:25)", "body": "Ooh Ann2! Via Dolorosa, the Way of Suffering! Yes, we like to see them suffer don't we? ;-)"}, {"response": 104, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (15:54)", "body": "Ann2, How about Edward Fitzwilliam for the Col. He's Edward in Young Fitz! Might as well keep the same name!!! I like the idea of your Via Dolorosa! Go to it!;-)"}, {"response": 105, "author": "Genette", "date": "Fri, Apr  4, 1997 (21:37)", "body": "Ann2, I'm breathless with anticipation. Go to it!"}, {"response": 106, "author": "Genette", "date": "Sun, Apr  6, 1997 (13:26)", "body": "Ann2, Got to read the Leaving of Rosings Park and LOVED it! Just what I would imagine their rapport to be. And, of course, Darcy's \"yearning eyes\" and the \"knife stabbed in his breast\" were just lovely. Capital, capital! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 214, "subject": "Matters of the heart: Why we read P&P", "response_count": 89, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (02:02)", "body": "I think that \"true\" love is too simplistic a concept to be fulfilling. While I'm not particularly into the \"pimples-and-all\" school, I do believe that to achieve the pinnacle of romance, a couple needs a history. Four or five months ago, I wrote that th e reason why I found the Darcy-Lizzy relationship so stimulating was due to the fact that both of them have to work, grow, and accept change in order deserve eachother. To reach Nirvana, they must realize where their assumptions are wrong, admit their mi takes, and move on. It's like pruning a lemon tree - whacking off old, familiar branches and leaves makes for an ugly, naked tree, but come summer, the rewards reaped more than make up for it. It's nice to know that someone wonderful has cracked his comfy little shell in order to understand you. In fact, part of the attraction itself lies in the fact that a potentially-decent guy has gone the extra mile for your favor. Effort and change on hi s part implies prior imperfection - or, at least, unrealized potential - and so you both benefit. Isn't that the meaning of \"real\" love? Both parties gain from the experience...EXPEREINCE being the operative word. Otherwise, what's the point? Sex? Perhaps the rub lies in the obvious shortage of worthy potential mates...people with genius, flare, and the divine spark who concurrently possess enough humility to perceive and appreciate the good qualities in others (namely, you). So many men and women are so wrapped up in themselves and their own problems that they neglect to appreciate others...and thereby forego the enrichment of communing with and learning from them. Why do the remarkable people always seem to be missing eachother?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (08:49)", "body": "Kal, I have heard you mention this \"divine spark\" before. What does that mean to you?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (10:00)", "body": "There is a book out called LOVE IS A VERB, but I think it is a definite noun. Love is a thing. Who knows when it starts, how it starts and when it stops. We are always looking for the perfect love, but most of us just settle for comfortability. When a young person finds love for the first time they are blind, figuratively and literally. That special feeling that goes right thru you is what people want. I guess that special feeling would be Kal's divine spark, but is there really. I know that when there is no romance in my life, I pick up a very romantic book to get that feeling. I can totally get lost in a book for hours. And I personally think that is much safer, than having my heart broken. I prefer to imagine that all of us are Lizzy and Darcy in our own way. Its what you make it out to be."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (11:10)", "body": "I find that the \"ideal love\" in novels like P&P and my own experience in reality are so disparate that they are separated by a chasm the size of the Grand Canyon. I was talking to an M.A. in psychology about the draw of P&P, and she said this was one of women's big fantasies: that a man will change for them."}, {"response": 5, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (11:20)", "body": "Amy all I have to say is YES!!!! that is sooo true."}, {"response": 6, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:28)", "body": "I think it definitely has something to do with the fact that someone would go to all that trouble to change for you. In P&P, though, Darcy changes not only for Elizabeth, but also because she is right about his imperfections. He is cold and does not tr y very hard to make himself agreeable. Isn't he a little like Emma in that at first he thinks that certain people are beneath him before he even gets to know them? They both change, not just for the person they love, but because it is the right thing to do. A person who loves you will help you be the best you possible can, not be the person they WANT you to be. I know that I read Jane Austen because I love a happy ending (there's much more to why I read her than that, but...). I think it kind of restores my faith in human nature and the world that good things still do happen to good people."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:00)", "body": "] Isn't he a little like Emma in that at first he thinks that certain people are beneath him before he even gets to know them? They both change, not just for the person they love, but because it is the right thing to do. __ Good point, Lynn. I never thought about that before. ] A person who loves you will help you be the best you possible can, not be the person they WANT you to be. ____ And I really like this idea a lot."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:41)", "body": "The divine spark...somebody famous once said that you can find in anywhere, even in green beans...what is it? That's the same sort of question as \"what is love, and why do we fall into it?\" It's the indescribable rightness of being...the proportion and organization of certain qualities which exhibits the graceful \"symmetry of a Grecian urn\" (to quote Ashley Wilkes). It's hard to explain if you've never experienced it, but when you see it, y ou know it. It's when what is remarkable in a person or thing or concept negates what is not. Sometimes, it takes quite awhile to realize it's there, especially regarding its presence in people. That's why it's a spark...it's a catalytic reaction which occurs someh ow between the other person and your mind and gut. It's an epiphany, really, which jolts your attention. There is a moment in which the truth darts through you with the speed of an arrow, and the value calculus in your mind is suddenly and completely th own into place, and you realize that the individual in question is more worthy - and deserving of your attention - than you ever realized. There's a magic to the divine spark, just as with real, nondelusional love...I guess it just goes to show that you have to let things happen...you can't engineer your life..."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:02)", "body": "Thanks, Kal. I just needed somebody who had experienced it more recently to say it. I asked you because I knew your words would help me jog my memory."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:34)", "body": "Do you think real love can turn into true love ? If we buy into the \"bodice ripper\" romance novels it can. The basis of all those relationships is intially either sex or the \"Beatrice and Benedict Syndrome\" I think we all dream of having these types of relationships. Hopefully we are mature enough to realize that they are unrealistic to a point. Don't we all have a list when it comes to men: The gotta-haves and the would-be-nice lists? The Darcy Factor falls under would-be-nice category. Mature enough is a key I think. I don't think it is impossible to find true love when you are young, but is is harder to distinguish. Also, I think modern society makes it easy for us to bail rather than try to work t ings out. We are supposed to do what makes \"us\" happy. Isn't this relationship thing supposed to be a we ? The relationship ends when one of the parties does too much \"me-me, I-I\" stuff. I am trying to simplifiy this too much but I hope you see wher e I am coming from."}, {"response": 11, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:36)", "body": "I don't think I've ever experienced that and I'm a mommy. I guess unconditional love just isn't the same thing."}, {"response": 12, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (00:40)", "body": "The magic of P&P, like any great work, is difficult to define. I do reject though the notion that its appeal, at least in some measure, comes from a wish-fulfillment fantasy that many women have: a man will change for them. MAybe I am over-sensitive, but I have seen to many women screw up their lives because they thought they could change a man. It never works. Granted, Darcy is humbled by Lizzy and realizes \"how insufficient were all my pretensions to please a woman worthy of being pleased.\" But, Lizzy c anges too-her prejudice led her to be taken in by Wickham's sad tale and charms. I like the way Davies and co. chose to end P&P2, contrasting the Wickham marriage with the Darcy and Elizabeth union: an equal, sparring partnership, based on mutual respect and love, tested and made stronger by circumstance and time. That's what we all want! One of the things I have always loved about P&P is the part where Lizzy tries to get Darcy to account for when/why he fell in love with her: \"You were sick of civility, of deference, of officious attention. I roused and interested you because I was so unl ike them.\" How refreshing and wonderful! He fell in love with her fine eyes and lively mind. It goes beyond sex, although as we all know that's there too! For me, that is true love, whatever that is. Too many people fall in lust."}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (11:18)", "body": "But the \"man will change for you\" in P&P is a FANTASY. This is still a novel, and in fictional terms, IT WORKS. Darcy does change for Lizzy -- and himself -- so that they can be together. As far as the \"divine spark\" -- Shaw mentions it in PYGMALION wh en Higgins says to Eliza: \"I have my own spark of divine fire!\" This, as she is walking out the door."}, {"response": 14, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (11:43)", "body": "Yes-It's a fantasy, although not one of mine. But, I still think P&P's appeal goes beyond this. Darcy was always a good, decent, honourable person and kind, indulgent brother. Like he said, he was taught good principles, but led to follow them in pride an d conceit. It was his decision to change too."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Dina", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "I think the notion of a person loving you enough to change for you would become suspect if they changed too much. As Cassandra says, I think Darcy had the kindness in him he just needed to bring it to the surface. I think in reality we're just hopi ng we can get a guy that will take us to chick movies and pick his socks up off the floor. This is all the change we may hope to expect. But who wouldn't want the divine spark? I think a rare few do get it. It is not fiction only."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:03)", "body": "I had a thought...it's not one that will fit into our fantasy of Darcy...but... We only see Darcy before he marries Lizzy. People tend to do and be things during the courting or dating period that makes them better suited for the one who they are pursuing. After marriage...when real life sets in and all the pomp and cirmcumstance of the courtship is over...don't we slip back into some of that person we were before we changed. I wonder what Darcy is like when Lizzy is not unreachable anymore? Will Lizzy still think he is the best man she ever knew? When Lady Catherine makes a n t too complimentary remark about Lizzy...will he stand up to her as he did with Ms. Bingley? In short...will each of them take the other for granted, which happens alot in marriage? Maybe we like this relationship so much because we are seeing only that side of it that makes them be the best they can be because they are after what they want..each other?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (21:54)", "body": "Here's an opinion from somebody or other named \"Jane Austen\" ;-) \"There are such beings in the world -- perhaps one in a thousand -- as the creature you and I should think perfection; where grace and spirit are united to worth, where the manners are equal to the heart and understanding; but such a person may not come in your way, or, if he does, he may not be the eldest son of a man of fortune, the near relation of your particular friend, and belonging to your own count y.\" -- letter of November 18, 1814 , to Fanny Knight"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (22:13)", "body": "That special feeling that goes right thru you is what people want. Laura, this is the best explanation I've seen about this -- that's it! A person who loves you will help you be the best you possible can, not be the person they WANT you to be. Did someone say Knightley ? \"You were sick of civility, of deference, of officious attention. I roused and interested you because I was so unlike them.\"...Too many people fall in lust.... Darcy does change for Lizzy -- and himself -- so that they can be together... I think the notion of a person loving you enough to change for you would become suspect if they changed too much...I had a thought...it's not one that will fit into our fantasy of Darcy...but...People tend to do and be things during the courti ng or dating period that makes them better suited for the one who they are pursuing. After marriage...when real life sets in and all the pomp and cirmcumstance of the ourtship is over...don't we slip back into some of that person we were before we change ...In short...will each of them take the other for granted, which happens alot in marriage? Linda, you have very eloquently expressed my own unpopular view about Elizabeth and Darcy -- they cannot keep this up!! One of the main reasons Darcy wants Elizabeth, without discounting his admiration for and appreciation of her sparkling personality, i s undisguised lust, pure and simple. It is an unfortunate trait of some men that they no longer want as much that which they now have. I am chagrined to say that I believe Darcy is one of those men. He has had everything he has wanted his entire life, nd although he had to work for Lizzy, he has her now, too. Is it possible that his disgust for her family, his knowledge that her standing is far beneath his -- and has cost him the respect of others in his sphere -- and even the way she made him (lower himself?) work to have her, will not recur in his thoughts at some point in time? To think not, I believe, is the real fairy tale. I realize that I am inviting flames, but please at least consider what I'm saying, ok?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (22:44)", "body": "One of the main reasons Darcy wants Elizabeth, without discounting his admiration for and appreciation of her sparkling personality, is undisguised lust, pure and simple. Not meaning to make a joke, but I am absolutely certain that this is the reason my husband wanted me . Yes, we were great friends but it was lust that made us marry at a relatively young age. But when the flames of that lust died dow n (as they must for everyone---no couple, not even Elizabeth and Darcy can maintain that head-over-heels feeling for a long time)---when the flames died down, we still had friendship, respect, caring---the quieter and more meaningful aspects of \"love\" (wi h a very sufficient amount of passion remaining) to give validation to the vows we had made to each other. It is an unfortunate trait of some men that they no longer want as much that which they now have. I am chagrined to say that I believe Darcy is one of those men. I'm sorry, but I do not believe that. I believe that Darcy wanted to marry. When Jane was ill at Netherfield, Bingley states, \"I declare I do not know a more awful object than Darcy, on particular occasions, and in particular places; at his own house expecially , and of a Sunday evening, when he has nothing to do.\" I believe this line illustrates Darcy's loneliness and dissatisfaction with being a bachelor. Marriage is much more than sex and to seek it out of desire for a companion would not be o t of the ordinary."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "expecially I am always especially displeased when I mess up so spectacularly!;-("}, {"response": 21, "author": "Dina", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (10:20)", "body": "Nice quote Henry. Reminds me of a quote from A Little Romance starring Olivier. Diane Lane's character asks her new boyfriend something like\" have you ever wondered if the person who is perfect for you was maybe born in another time or another pla ce walking around wondering where you are?\" She put it much more sweetly but I have often wondered this myself. I know, break out the violins. Susan: Tsk, Tsk. Can't you tell he is really changed and not feeding her a line? Go back and READ the end of the book (not the show)."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "Susan...I agree with what you say...all of that will have to surface sometime...as handsome as Darcy is (at least in P&P2) I must agree that he can not be all perfection. As much change that has occured in him...there is still much pride and self preser vation in his own \"community\". There are to be many heated arguments forthcoming...but ah...the making up should be fun...and we won't be there to see it! Anyway.... The romantic in me wants to believe Henrys excerpt from the letter....and I have heard it to be true on rare occassion that once in a while...once in a great while....two people who are exactly right for each other meet...and as we loved to read in our youth...\"live happily ever after\". I would like to imagine that Darcy and Lizzy are two of those people. I am afraid the rest of us will just have to live in the real world (except when we turn the page or push play on the VCR)."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (13:16)", "body": "Well, I must jump in to say that I never thought they would \"live happily ever after\". I think that they will have a very good, rich, full marriage, but it won't be a bed of roses. I see misunderstandings because of thier basic personalities, but the th ing that you need to get through these, a commitment to being happy with a certain person, drives you to resolve these as they come up, over and over. Also, I belive that the necessity to change is inherent in the human animal. People always change, based on the experiences that they live through. The person you marry is going to change; in fact, lots of people have a problem with a spouse changing; w itness those who sabotage a spouse's weight loss attempt, etc. Any ordinary, decent person will naturally emulate the types of behavior that they see being used successfully by others. And you have plenty of opportunity to observe the behavior of someon you live with. My husband has become more of a planner, and I more sponatenous, because we have appreciated the effect from living with each other. Lizzy and Darcy already know the traits that they admire in the other; that will continue, and will have it's natural effect. Of course, the \"bad\" traits will also come into play; but since they have both been shown to be creatures of self-reflection the re is every expectation that they will make efforts to maintain harmony by deciding on changes consciously. Lastly, I agree with Linda.. making up can be fun!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (13:22)", "body": "I know I am a romantic but I do live in reality. True Darcy could have been putting on an act, but why bother for so long. Especially when Caroline Bingley was there for the asking. Yes Elizabth was a challenge but...I just believe as Lynn put it Darcy changed not only for Lizzy but to improve in character. Ideally your partner should bring out the best in you and vise versa. Unfortunately I think today too many people believe they can't have perfection (and no one can because no one is perfect) so t ey settle and are miserable. I think you need to have high standards for your mate and if you don't find anyone who meets that criterion DON'T MARRY. I've seen women pull a Charlotte Lucas is the name of pragmatism but I know my friends who kept their s tandards are happier. No their marriages aren't 24 hours of bliss but they are good marriages. I think you can have romantic ideals and practical sensibilities. \"Happily ever after\" this is a fantasy term. What in life of consequence or meaning comes without some difficulty? Yes some of our friendships with women don't bring pain and suffering b ut that is different than a martial relationship. With my mother and my sister, I rarely have conflict but conflict does come (as it does in all relationships). It is how you handle the difficult times which determine the success of a relationship. What draws me back to JA time and again is that 200 years ago a woman created male hero who were an ideal. The fact that she hoped for men to unite such qualites (thanks HC) reaffirms to me that you should hope/desire the best. Don't cheat yourself for second best. The qualities that we admire in Darcy, Knightley and Wentworth are worthy attributes. The problem today is that fewer and fewer people are worthy (for a myraid of reasons) however, that is still no excuse not to wait for the best."}, {"response": 25, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (13:26)", "body": "Thank you, Mari! I was trying to figure out how to say just this! No, my life isn't as \"romantic\" as I would sometimes like to have it, but then again, it's pretty darn great all around! No, I don't get flowers sent to me all the time, but every now and then I get a wonderful surprise that was dreamed up by him, not th e Hallmark folks! Everything in real life involves compromise, so if we're trying to visualize Lizzy and Darcy in their real post-P&P life, it will certainly involve plenty of compromise, as well. Courting may end for some at the wedding, but compromise (read \"change\") does not!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (15:36)", "body": ""}, {"response": 27, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (16:52)", "body": "I've enjoyed all these thoughts. It is romantic to think a hero like Darcy will change due to love, because it doesn't happen in true life. I don't have my book, but at the end didn't Lizzie refain from teasing Darcy, because he wasn't ready?? Maybe he didn't change so much as blossom (its a beautiful spring here)? Also as an American, I would love to swept up by a Darcy like man and live at Pemberly! (if it had central heat and running water, I'm not all that romantic!) But you all know what I mean. Do I need to add that watching CF play Darcy reinforced the hero status? He didn't save anyone's life or anything! But he is a hero. My paultry thoughts..."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (20:58)", "body": "I had a few more thoughts today, and then I'll be quiet about this. First of all, I didn't mean to imply that Darcy was putting on an act. I believe he truly loves Lizzy -- I'm simply speculating on how well that love can survive when real life intrudes , and when a man who has always had everything he's ever wanted gets one more thing he wanted, but at great cost. Is it not possible that Lizzy's very unavailability is one of the factors that makes Darcy have to have her? But -- I believe it was Ellen Moody on Austen-L who pointed out that these are characters in a book and not real people, even though we like to ascribe real-people feelings to them. Karen also mentioned in an earlier thread that we need to separate the b ook from the adaptation. Therefore, I can compare E & D to real-life people, but they are JA's creation and she can have them be whatever she wants. In this case, she has created something I don't think real life would sustain, but that is her prerogati e. Why, then, do I read P&P? Because I like that happy-ever-after fantasy, quite regardless of believing it possible."}, {"response": 29, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (21:45)", "body": "I suppose none of us re-read P&P just because of the love story w/ the happy ending, though these are very good reasons. I know that I do not read other love stories, happy endings or not. Jane Austen's books are special, and I re-read them for many reasons. I think the several layers of pleasure, including a well-matched heroine and hero, keep me coming back. Could I enjoy a book w/ an unhappy ending written by JA? Could she have writte n such a book? I'll never know. I love her heroines and heroes. They are part of my life, and I feel as if I know them, as if they were real people. That's another reason I come back to them -- they are dear friends whom I must visit at least occasionally. I suppose other authors hav e similarly loyal readers, but I do not know them. As to whether these couples will be happy ever after . . . of course they will. Because Jane Austen never told us otherwise! Real life doesn't need to intrude. Real people may not always be \"happy\" but they can be content if they are open to it."}, {"response": 30, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (22:21)", "body": "I have to agree with what Mari said. Darcy and Lizzy will have a very good, rich, full marriage, but there will be conflicts involve. These conflicts, when resolved, will add to the marriage experience. Although, their basic personalities will not easily change, smaller aspects will as they grow as a couple. According to what I read in the old BB archives regarding each of their Myers-Briggs personality types they have near shadow personalities, which enhances each other's weaker side. Because of the nature of MB personality typing, you can be one facet or it s opposite for four different characteristics in varying degrees that then become sixteen possible personality types. Thus, one can be an Extravert (E) or Introvert (I), Sensing (S) or iNtuitive (N), Thinking (T) or Feeling (F), Judging (J) or Percieving P) person. Lizzy is an ENFJ and Darcy is an ISTJ (according to two posters who took the test for him) or INTJ (according to the Myers-Briggs listings on the web). Where Lizzy is strong, Darcy is weak and vice-versa. It is because of this shadowing that on e brings the other to their full potentials and also lessens each other's extremes. The change we see in Darcy after the first proposal is movement on his part away from the Introvert and Thinking extreme toward the Extravert and Feeling aspect that Lizzy is. It is this shift that brings the romance into P&P that we love so much. Conversely, Lizzy will compliment him after marriage because she, as the Extravert Feeler, can deal with most, if not all, the social responsibilities that comes with being the Master and Mistress of Pemberley. With each doing what is strong in their basi c personality, there is balance. It is this balance that we all want in our lives, but do not always get. At least this is why I read P&P. (Sorry, I have a tendency to ramble ...) :-) P.S. For more information about MBTI, the book Please Understand Me by Kiersey and Bates is good or you can find a number of good sources on the web through Yahoo."}, {"response": 31, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (22:27)", "body": "Keirsey Temperament Test link : http://sunsite.unc.edu/jembin/mb.pl This is so fun, haven't done this poppsy in eons. We share a similar background Cheryl!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (23:43)", "body": "Johanne: We share a similar background Cheryl! I could extrovertedly and intuitively feel and perceive that Johanne! ;-)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (23:51)", "body": "Hil ] In discussing this, lets for now ignore the other reasons why we read books like P&P : humour, observation of character, wit, wonderful language etc. I don't think I would re-read P&P if it did not also contain these elements - but I am also attracted by the way the romance is presented. The reasons I like the romance in P&P have changed over the years. I first read P&P when I was 12. I immediately fell in love with Elizabeth Bennet, I thought she was perfect and I accepted the surface view of her love as perfect at the end of the story. I no longer believe in 'true love' as Hil defined it, the stuff of Mills and Boon andallmark cards. However, I still accept Elizabeth and Darcy's love as 'real' (ie a convincing depiction thereof), because when I look at P&P nowadays I see a depiction of realistic people, all with some good and some bad, although the proportion varies; I agree with those that think the Darcys will have a good marriage, with ups and downs, a few disagreements and many moments of harmony. The novel finishes on an up note, as all good romances should, but I don't think JA asks us to believe that they will have 'perfect' happiness, but a predominance of love and good times. That is why I still find the romance in P&P attractive - I think such a relationship is possible in the real world. It takes luck, in meeting a compatible person at the right time, and hard work and a realistic attitude (don't give up after the first nor the 20th disagreement), but it is possible. And although the euphoria of acute love, lust and the illusion of perfection of the early days isn't sustainable one can still reivisit it from time to time."}, {"response": 34, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (10:20)", "body": "I can remeber when I studies P&P at school writing an essay based on the final paragraph of chapter 58. Lizzy restrains herself from making a witty comment to the effect that Bingley had been a delightful friend to Darcy because he was so easily guided. She stops herself because \"he had let to learn to be laught at, and it was rather too early to begin\" We had to consider whether or not this was a bad sign for the future: is Lizzy restraining her normal wit and humour in order to conform with Darcy's sense of pride? When will it be early enough to teach him to start laughing at himself? Will she always end up checking herself in this way, so that eventually she loses the facility to laugh at him? She seems to be showing a degree of caution that she had not shown before (eg while staying at Netherfield) when she didn't care about him at all. And yet her wit is what he likes. Is she going to take his importance (to hjmself and to her) too seriousl y? This passage is a tiny little ambiguous clue that things will not always be rosy and easy."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (11:51)", "body": "Thanks Kate. I can't see either Darcy or Lizzie restraining themselves too long. Even Auntie noticed he needed to lighten up some. (BTW - Did you write the letter from Auntie G? That was good.)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (15:48)", "body": "have you ever wondered if the person who is perfect for you was maybe born in another time or another place walking around wondering where you are?\" She put it much more sweetly but I have often wondered this myself. I know, break out the violins. Dina, your comment reminded me very much of a song by country singer George Strait, which I thought I would post, even if it is off-topic: Our Paths May Never Cross Lady, I know you're out there somewhere Like me, you're feeling lost. Lady, I know you're out there somewhere, But our paths may never cross. People like us never find each other, Love is our greatest loss. Lady, right now we both need each other But our paths may never cross. We're two people who should be together, 'Cause we're lonely at the very same time. But there's a million too many good reasons Why your love can never be mine. Maybe this song was written for you. Listen -- don't turn it off. I wish you could learn it, and come sing it with me, But our paths may never cross. It was never a hit, but has a slow, piano-bar-type tune and is very catchy. Come to think of it, shouldn't he be over at drool? :) This theme was also explored somewhat in \"Somewhere in Time,\" a really excellent movie."}, {"response": 37, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "(BTW - Did you write the letter from Auntie G? Yes, and thanks"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (20:32)", "body": "Susan...I'll vote for George Strait to go on the Drool...saw him from a front row seat one time....was definitely worth the price! Anna...good point about that we don't always read books for the happy endings...that is true...but in this case, I was glad it was."}, {"response": 39, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (22:59)", "body": "re: 31 Thanks for putting in the link, Johanne. I'm still getting use to the software and HTML. I will learn to add links before the next time I reference something. :-) Angela"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (00:16)", "body": "I think JA helped me decide to get out of my marriage. I'd settled into a Mr and Mrs Bennet situation -- but worse -- and had very nearly decided that was all there would ever be for me. Now, five years, later maybe that is all there ever will be for me, but at least there is a possibility now. Some of my hokey new age mentors say you have to make room for the good to come in."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (02:28)", "body": "Dina, have you ever seen On a Clear Day You Can See Forever with Barbara Streisand and Yves Montand? Talk about romance from opposite ends of time and space! But seriously...you've got me thinking...it's a beautiful sentiment...it offers a small degree of comfort when it seems that you'll never find happiness. And Susan, thanks for the song..."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (05:48)", "body": "I don't know, Kate. Let's see. He likes Miss Eyre a lot too."}, {"response": 43, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (06:48)", "body": "I cannot say whether I got my philosophy from my parents, or Jane Austen, or other \"mentors,\" but I would say that we should never settle for less than we need and deserve. (I do not mean perfection -- that does not exist.) As an eight-and-forty, never-married female, I can say that there is life without marriage. And very good life at that. It would be nice to have someone with whom to share my everyday joys & concerns, but it is not essential. Of course, a Darcy or a Knightley would be wonderful, but not necessarily the best match for me. Not only would I never wish to settle for a Mr Collins, I would not want an Edward Ferrars if I thought I needed/deserved a Col Brandon. In the meant ime, I am content with my family, my friends, and my life. I do read JA's books, especially P&P, partly for the romance. But when I return to reality, I take only that portion of the books which continue to give pleasure to my life -- no regrets that I cannot have a Darcy, but contentment that I chose not to be Charlotte Collins!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (07:30)", "body": "I would not want an Edward Ferrars if I thought I needed/deserved a Col Brandon. Well-said, Kathleen! I am all admiration. :*]"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (07:55)", "body": "I don't know how I did it, but I replied here to a question of Kate's posed in the Dalton Jane Eyre topic."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (14:01)", "body": "Weird stuff like that has happened to me, too, Amy. Yapp is possessed by the devil."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (22:02)", "body": "I wonder who your hokey new age mentors are, Amy. (There will be many new possibilities). Was it the sting of the Bennets, or the promise of better?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "candace", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (22:53)", "body": "Kathleen said: \"we should never settle for less than we need and deserve.\" This bring to mind when I was in my very early twenties, I went with my mother to visit some long time friends of hers. The man had suffered for years with MS and was very much disabled and wheelchair bound, the woman looked a very stereotypical more tha n middle aged housewife. She had made the comment that when she looked at him, he was still her Clark Gable. And he replied that when he looked at her, she was still his Betty Grable. It was at that precise moment that I decided that I would never settle for less -- to be able to love someone so much as not ever to resent the constant care of him that she had to undergo and after so many years to be able to look at each other still as Darcy looks at Lizzie."}, {"response": 49, "author": "candace", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (22:56)", "body": "Whoa -- so sorry about the above :-("}, {"response": 50, "author": "candace", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (22:57)", "body": "This is a test...only a test --- Did I finally close that pesky tag?"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (00:15)", "body": "Did I finally close that pesky tag? Who cares, Candace? What a beautiful, uplifting story!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (09:28)", "body": "Kathleen: Well said!!! I think I will memorize that and use it on my Dad next time he rags me about being a five and thirty never married. He'll actually get the P&P comparisions."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:02)", "body": "``Miss Gentle Reader, let me persuade you to follow my example, and take a turn about the all italic topic. -- I assure you it is very refreshing after viewing so long in one attitude.''"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (14:06)", "body": "Mari second chuckle from you today. You are funny."}, {"response": 55, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:39)", "body": "That's a beautiful story Candace. And Mari, thanks for the LOL!;-)"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:19)", "body": "test"}, {"response": 57, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:23)", "body": "It won't let a mere mortal enter a closing tag without an opening on in the same message; we'll have to wait for a magician to drop by..."}, {"response": 58, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "I can put in an end tag, though I am mortal, but did not see the need as my page looks okay."}, {"response": 59, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (20:11)", "body": "if you reload from about 50 it'll all be italicised, but as you say Amy it is a transient phenomen..."}, {"response": 60, "author": "churchh", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (20:52)", "body": "I \"froze\" this topic for a few minutes to fix the HTML problem; it should be OK now..."}, {"response": 61, "author": "candace", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (20:56)", "body": "Thank you, Amy and HC -- I am extremely embarrassed **BLUSH**"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (23:39)", "body": "You're too cute, Candace. :)"}, {"response": 63, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (20:57)", "body": "okay, I was trying to find the place where I ragged on my husband for never (ever!) sending me flowers, but I can't figure out if this was it anyway, I finally found what I'd been looking for since the time I did that. My Don, dear sweetie that he is, doesn't like to present things because they might be expected. He does bring tears to my eyes every now and then, however. On Jan. 2, 1996, he called me at work, read me the following poem, said, \"I love you, Cindy\", and hung up. Needless to say, I was a mess! Okay, here goes: (he gave me permission to share this) \"Echoes, No.XXV\" W. E. Henley In the year that's come and gone, love, his flying feather Stooping slowly, gave us heart, and bade us walk together. In the year that's coming on, though many a troth be broken, We at least will not forget aught that love hath spoken. In the year that's come and gone, dear, we wove a tether All of gracious words and thoughts, binding two together. In the year that's coming on with its wealth of roses We shall weave it stronger yet, ere the circle closes. In the year that's come and gone, in the golden weather, Sweet, my sweet, we swore to keep the watch of life together. In the year that's coming on, rich in joy and sorrow, We shall light our lamp, and wait life's mysterious morrow."}, {"response": 64, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:11)", "body": "Very romantic, Cindy. You are both fortunate to have found each other."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (23:21)", "body": "God, Cindy, my husband wouldn't even know where to find something like that! But, he does show his love in other ways."}, {"response": 66, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (23:21)", "body": "God, Cindy, my husband wouldn't even know where to find something like that! But, he does show his love in other ways."}, {"response": 67, "author": "candace", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (00:50)", "body": "Yes, Cindy -- I believe that those verbal boquets are much more special!"}, {"response": 68, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (00:54)", "body": "Wow! Cindy sounds like you have your own Mr KNightley!!"}, {"response": 69, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (01:32)", "body": "One of the first times I read P&P, I remember being struck uncomfortable by the fact that Lizzy was grateful, maybe more than anything, to Darcy. The more I think about it, though, it is not such a bad thing. What does anybody else think? What place should gratitude have in love? motive within her of good will which could not be overlooked. It was gratitude.\">"}, {"response": 70, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (01:42)", "body": "] I can remeber when I studies P&P at school writing an essay based on the final paragraph of chapter 58. Lizzy restrains herself from making a witty comment to the effect that Bingley had been a delightful friend to Darcy because he was so easily guided. She stops herself because \"he had let to learn to be laught at, and it was rather too early to begin\" We had to consider whether or not this was a bad sign for the future: is Lizzy restraining her normal wit and humour in order to conform with Darcy's sense of pride? When will it be early enough to teach him to start laughing at himself? Will she always end up checking herself in this way, so that eventually she loses the facility to laugh at him? __ Kate, I meant to comment on this earlier because I think it does raise a red flag. Has Lizzy already begun to hid her light under a bushel basket? Will she subdue her very self to please him? Will he find her pert opinions less charming as the years wear on? Will he, who has been used to having his own way, resent her need to have her own way? Seems to me that guys love the idea of independent women; the reality of them is not so appealing to many men."}, {"response": 71, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (04:23)", "body": "\"We had to consider whether or not this was a bad sign for the future: is Lizzy restraining her normal wit and humour in order to conform with Darcy's sense of pride? Will she always end up checking herself in this way, so that eventually she loses the facility to laugh at him? \" Perhaps, it was meant to show that Lizzy has to grow to accomodate more than her own opinion on matters, trivial or otherwise- as she has learnt throughout the novel. A marriage of minds?"}, {"response": 72, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (08:36)", "body": "I agree Serena, but I still think there's a danger here. Of course, I would. Kate you never said on what side you came down. On the old board, way back, probably in September or earlier, Arnessa mentioned that the men in her office found Jane to be more appealing. I thought that was really really really very very interesting. Jane fairly screams of \"sure you may control me;\" Lizzy doesn't. Okay, enough of my bitter woman view. Somebody tell me why this should not be."}, {"response": 73, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (11:08)", "body": "Amy, I'm not really sure what side I come down on. I think JA intended that they would have a long and happy life together. But I can't help thinking that she is teasing us by introducing this little niggle. I mean, to be perfectly honest, if any of my friends told me they were going to marry someone on the basis of a few conversations at parties or dinner with lots of other people present, that she hated him at first, but then found out that he was a nice person, that he did something wonderful for her sister (because he liked HER) and that since she had discovered she liked him they had met maybe three times and not had one serious conversation AND that he had lots of money, I would say she was crazy. GET TO KNOW HIM A BIT FIRST I would say. Particularly if he was obviously quite stong willed and used to getting his own way. Very unromantic I know, but. Anyway, what I meant to say is that I really worry that Lizzy will lose that sense of unguarded joy and delight that she experiences, and become too much concerned about being the mistress of Pemberley and a good wife to Darcy. Being a good wife to him may mean not laughing at him. I really HOPE that she quickly teaches him to learn to laugh at himself, and that they spend their whole lives laughing at and with each other. But...I'm not ABSOLUTELY certain that they do."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Mari", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (11:57)", "body": "I think Jane Austen was pretty clear on the future of Lizzy and Darcy's marriage, and she did not forsee Lizzy holding herself in check, as it were; Pemberley was now Georgiana's home; and the attachment of the sisters was exactly what Darcy had hoped to see. They were able to love each other even as well as they intended. Georgiana had the highest opinion in the world of Elizabeth; though at first she often listened with an astonishment bordering on alarm at her lively, sportive, manner of talking to her brother. He, who had always inspired in herself a respect which almost overcame her affection, she now saw the object of open pleasantry. Her mind received knowledge which had never before fallen in her way. By Elizabeth's instructions, she began to comprehend that a woman may take liberties with her husband which a brother will not always allow in a sister more than ten years younger than himself."}, {"response": 75, "author": "Dina", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (12:50)", "body": "Perhaps, it was meant to show that Lizzy has to grow to accomodate more than her own opinion on matters, trivial or otherwise- as she has learnt throughout the novel. A marriage of minds? I think this is important. I have mentioned before, what is life if not to learn and, hopefully, grow from our mistakes. In love, isn't it the same? Is not one of the true signs of love thinking of the other persons feelings first, before our own? When this is gone (by one of the parties in the relationship) that is when the love is gone. I am still amazed at my as-much-as-can-be-expected-from-a-64-year-old feminist mother still thinks of my father first and vice-versa. Lizzie's thinking of Darcy's feelin (by curbing her tongue, or whatever) is not wrong. If he truely loves her, he is doing the same thing. I am not trying to be naive. How many people on this sight who are divorced can chock it up to this, in a nut shell ?"}, {"response": 76, "author": "Ann", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "\"I really HOPE that she quickly teaches him to learn to laugh at himself,\" I think we see her getting over her initial reservation before the novel is done. Not only does Austen give us the comment about their life together at Pemberley and Lizzy's sportive manner, but we also see them together after the engagement (those scenes which Davies/Birtwhistle so cruelly left out). She does tease him in the book about when he fell in love with her, and he seemed to enjoy it just as much as before. I think she would maintain her personality after the marriage, but accomodate her partner to some extent too, as would he."}, {"response": 77, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (18:05)", "body": "Doesn't it say that he had not yet learned to laugh at himself? Wouldn't the \"yet\" imply that this is to come?"}, {"response": 78, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (18:12)", "body": "On Lizzy curbing her natuaral tendency to razz people, I agree with whoever said it did ring little alarm bells, but that we trust from what we know of E and D that this is not a bad omen, rather a maturity, just as he has to curb some attitudes too. I was also 'struck uncomfortable' by the gratitude, Amy. I haven't yet sorted out what I feel about it exactly, except that I too don't think its necessarily a bad thing. Maybe it depends on why you think you are being appreciated. For instance, if you feel someone likes you for yourself, and things you like about yourself too, then it would be different from if they liked you because you represented something like status or a good deal or a way out. Also, maybe our culture is so bound up with the idea of falling in passionate love, that we tend to avoid acknowledgeing feelings like gratitude in those circunstances. The thing about male work colleagues liking Jane better is interesting. I think I read somewhere that people tend to seek out mates of about the same intellegence. I wonder if that is another aspect of it....? How does intellegence tie in with control, if at all? Do both change with different types of intellegence?...here I am thinking of Lydgate and Rosamund."}, {"response": 79, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (18:42)", "body": "Re: Elizabeth's gratitude to Darcy The passage Amy quotes (resp #69) takes place the night after Darcy has brought Georgiana to meet Elizabeth at Lambton. Her gratitude covers the fact that he loved her, and that he has forgiven the manner in which she previously rejected him, and he is not acting totally weird about her (positively or negatively). [Think about how Mr Collins reacted when E rejected him!] But, gratitude is not why she is falling in love with him. While it is attractive for someone else to be attracted to you, it is not enough to keep you going. And, Elizabeth has known about Darcy's feelings for four months or so, and she never had any reason to regret her decision before. I think the gratitude is just part of the whole change in her feelings. After Darcy leaves Elizabeth at the inn (after learning about Lydia & Wickham), Jane Austen writes, \"If gratitude and esteem are good foundations of affection, Elizabeth's change of sentiment will be neither improbable nor faulty. But if otherwise, if the regard springing from such sources is unreasonable or unnatural, in comparison of what is so often described as arising on a first interview . . . and even before two words have been exchanged, nothing can be said in her defence\" [italics mine] So, Jane Austen knew about \"love/lust at first sight\" which is so often substitued for \"love\" in the movies. And, Elizabeth does not feel that for Darcy; she feels esteem and gratitude and respect, and all of that grows into love. And fortunately they have a meeting of the hearts as well as of the minds. [IMO, of course!]"}, {"response": 80, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (20:11)", "body": "Yes, Kathleen, I agree with you. JA writes in P&P, after Darcy, Bingley and Georgiana visited the Inn at Lambton, \"Gratitude, not merely for having once loved her, but for loving her still well enough, to forgive all the petulance and acrimony of her manner in rejecting him, and all the unjust accusations accompanying her rejection. . . . For to love, ardent love, it must be attributed.\" I think from their first surprise meeting at Pemberley, Lizzie not only feels gratitude that he doesn't totally ignore her, but she grows to respect, esteem, and love him so that by the time she leaves Lambton she would really rather have stayed there! I also think that Lizzie continues to be playful and teasing with Darcy, as JA mentions in the last chapter. It's just during that first walk she considers it to be too soon -- after all, they've just been through a lot of emotional stuff and this wasn't the time to be teasing the man you love!"}, {"response": 81, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (21:29)", "body": "Kathleen, you say it so well. I was truely inspired by what you wrote above."}, {"response": 82, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (00:55)", "body": "\"We had to consider whether or not this was a bad sign for the future: is Lizzy restraining her normal wit and humour in order to conform with Darcy's sense of pride? Will she always end up checking herself in this way, so that eventually she loses the facility to laugh at him? \" I think it is not a question of conforming to his pride, but more of recognizing that one cannot instantly mold others into what we wish that they would be, any more than we would wish to be forced into such a mold by our S.O. Any changing that happens is going to be a graduaL process and one that the changee wishes to participate in. Now I think I left a quote earlier in the wrong topic. (Forgive the re-run) How can anyone ever love you for who you are if you become someone else to be with t em? I think Lizzie is wise in not expecting this of Darcy. And this is one of the chief charms of this \"romance\", I think - neither of them expects the other to be someone other than who they really are. Re: the gratitude thing, I always thought that the gratitude was for the fact that he had treated her civilly when she felt that she had no cause to expect or deserve such kindness after having jumped all over him unfairly regarding Wickham's misrepresentation of the facts."}, {"response": 83, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:48)", "body": "I completely agree with you, Joan. Very well-put. Why should Mr. Darcy be expected to become the perfect gentleman-slave, while at the same time, we expect Lizzy to be able to say and so exactly as she pleases, even if it sometimes upsets her very worthy husband? He is entitled to just as much \"molding\" in Lizzy as she is of \"molding\" in him. Somebody said earlier that it's give-and-take, and I agree."}, {"response": 84, "author": "andrea", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (14:11)", "body": "This post does not follow the line of discussion of the last 10, 20 or even 30 posts but I cannot think of another topic to place it under. I apologize. Ignore it if it pleases you. In thinking of P&P, the heroines, heroes and love stories as discussed in this topic from the very beginning (for I read all it this afternoon) I thought of the following message from another list I am on. Quoting Valerie Clarke, who quotes Jeanette Winterson in her post: Here's one point of view that was offered by the wonderful, young British writer Jeanette Winterson on the subject of writing but is applicable to all art: ...\"one writes with generations at her back. There is more. No matter how brilliant, no matter how perfect are certain lines and certain passages, a book, a poem has to work altogether to be complete, and in its completion to cast light on its whole self. At the end of a piece of work there should be a feeling of inevitability; this could not have been made in any other way! Again to quote Winterson: \"...when we close the book there is only one voice we can hear; the writer's own.\" Peace. VC I do think this is true of Austen; it is why I return to her novels. It is spring break - time to pull out P&P again! Andrea"}, {"response": 85, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (17:36)", "body": "Gratefulness can be a part of love as it is felt on evidence that the other tries to do things for you, easing your burdens; Making you happy or less sad or distressed. If someone does this repeatedly it is a token of love in my opinion.Part of the necessary labour to keep love alive. To experience this is to know someone cares for you, and is bound to cause some feelings towards that person. But it is not enough, it must be done in a manner to please you, by someone who understands or at least tries to f gure out what you like. And if this person is likewise able to overlook and forgive your faults and errors, when you ask for it...and is able to laugh at him/herself and has warm eyes or a lovely voice or divine thighs and an outlook on life in the nearness of your own Then I would not be surprised if love was the result."}, {"response": 86, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (17:58)", "body": "How have I missed this thread? this is so interesting. I have been reading JA for over 30 years, but I have never thought about how JA influences my life. I do scold myself a lot over missed lessons that I SHOULD have learned from JA. And I recently sometimes see a little Mrs. Bennett and Lady Russell in myself that I never expected to see - like seeing my mother in the mirror, I guess. Who do we love, and who should we marry? Every person has an inner core that does not change. To have a happy marriage you have to know your partner's core and love it and be loved by that person who can see and love your own inner core. the external characteristics can change. Money, beauty, health all change. If a couple can still find and like and respect and love each other through the job losses and hair losses and the disappointments and the triumphs, they will have a good marriage. (I hope tha makes a little sense. I never tried to write it before) But that vaguely defined inner core. We know it when we see it (if we are lucky)."}, {"response": 87, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (19:19)", "body": "I see what you mean, Kate."}, {"response": 88, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (19:15)", "body": "Ann2 and Katy, I agree with you."}, {"response": 89, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (15:18)", "body": "I does make more than a little sense :) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 215, "subject": "Computer help (was Think You're Computer Illiterate?)", "response_count": 47, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (05:05)", "body": "In a couple of weeks when I finish a current project I hope to move my computer skills up a notch. Can any of you who have recently to paddle in the mysteries recommend a good book or 2 on beginning html? I aim to be able to manage my own home page, images etc and be a good and useful citizen of spring, but don't aspire to the rank of wizard..."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (08:46)", "body": "Laura Lemay's books are always good."}, {"response": 3, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (11:33)", "body": "I've had some success with Dummies 101: HTML by Ray and Ray, it's one of those IDG Dummies series."}, {"response": 4, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (08:35)", "body": "I remember \"Laura Lemay\" from back in the early '90's when she used to hang out on the Usenet newsgroup alt.angst and flame and be flamed along with the rest of the geeks there..."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (17:14)", "body": "I remember Laura Lemay from her book \"Teach Yourself Java in 21 Days\". The very first example program in the book wouldn't work for me. I spent ages trying to get that thing to work, only to finally discover through Usenet that the book was wrong, and if I followed her instructions it would never work! Needless to say, I put down the book and have never bought another one of hers!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (19:38)", "body": "Our colours are restored!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (20:20)", "body": "Our colours are restored! Hilary, Hooray! How did you did it? (Was there a magic incantation or some such thing?)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (13:22)", "body": "Why, yes, Kathleen, there is. Close your eyes, and repreat thrice; \"I shall overcome this, I shall overcome this, I shall overcome this...\""}, {"response": 9, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (16:44)", "body": "That's very good Hilary you'll need them to watch Joan's lovely flower photos, no buttercups yet though ;-)"}, {"response": 10, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (19:20)", "body": "Hilary, Mari -- whatever incantation was used must have been very powerful. The spilled dill (?) background here at Austen Conference has just become the background for Win 95 when I turn on my computer! I don't mind it, but I sure don't know how it happened."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "Let's say one found a picture on the web, but it was a wee little picture, and one wanted to make it bigger and then post it at the Drool Conference. Can one do such a thing, and if so, how would one go about it? All replies most fervently appreciated. :)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "Susan, no telling how it will hold up bigger, but here's what you do. Find out what size it is now, in pixels. You'll need some graphics viewer or paint program that tells you this. Say it is 50 x 60. You specify new dimensions in the same proportion within your img scr tag. Like this: [img src=\" http://www.place.com/dir/pic.gif \" width=\"200 height=\"240\"] That tag would make your picture 4 times larger. Sub pointy brackets for square."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (22:12)", "body": "Susan, one more thing. Do you know how to view source? Sometimes the size it specified there. Pictures load faster when a size is specified, even if the actual size is noted."}, {"response": 14, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (16:58)", "body": "Myretta, I heard it through the grape VI ne that you're ad VI sing a no VI ce, a Unix VI rgin as it were, in the use of a VI le tool of the de VI l, that de VI ant and ata VI stic text editor. From my point of VI ew, your obli VI ous VI ctim's fate is unen VI able, since I VI gorously VI e to VI lify and re VI le (with VI sceral VI gilance and VI triol) that VI llainous de VI ce of primiti VI sm, that VI cious efflu VI um of e VI l, that un VI able but VI rulent VI rus of unser VI ceable unproducti VI ty, which is e VI dently little less than VI olently Bolshe VI k. It is my VI rtuous wish that some VI sionary indi VI dual will be VI ctorious in e VI cting this in VI dious VI ce into the ine VI table obli VI on which it so ob VI ously and richly in VI tes! VI ctory!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (18:03)", "body": "Henry, I did it just to annoy you. And the VI vid VI triol of your in VI dious attack tells me that I hit the mark, but the editor remains in VI olable. You have not VI tiated my campaign with your VI tuperation. VI va VI The VI sual Editor VI rago"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (20:59)", "body": "VI ciously funny!!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (21:35)", "body": "Sic 'em sister! ;-)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (21:40)", "body": "Poor Henry... One of these days we are going to go over the line -- again. Oh dear, but I couldn't help but giggle when you said you did it just to bug him, Myretta."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (02:05)", "body": "I fixed my problem with not having Colin Firth, Jeremy Northam, and FanFiction threads on Drool (or I should say, my husband did). Normally, I'd be too embarrassed to mention the cure, but I thought I might be able to save someone else the same trouble. In the Main Menu, there's an option called View/Modify Preferences, where you can choose a lot of different things about how you want your threads displayed. I don't remember doing this when I first signed on, so I'm assuming I picked default. Anyway, changed Skip Forgotten to Don't Skip Forgotten, and voila! Everything's right with the world again!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (12:44)", "body": "Good for you Susan, I don't see how anyone could endure long without access to Firth and Northam drool, and the fiction usually helps...slurp, sorry. That VI thing was great;just wish I had a clue... but I seem to be doomed to blindness."}, {"response": 21, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (13:01)", "body": "Ann2: but I seem to be doomed to blindness Oh, Ann, where is Mr Knightley when you need him! ;-)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:06)", "body": "Ann2 -- It's the great perpetual \"Unix text editor religious war\" of Emacs vs. VI; the conflict has raged since about the early 1980's (? not certain), and it hasn't been settled yet... However it is true that VI is still in some ways a kind of hopped-up line editor (this is a kind of software dating back to 1960's mainframes and paper TTY terminals) -- and not a true from-the-ground-up screen editor; also, VI has some features that are rather new-user-unfriendly, such as the invisible distinction between \"insert mode\" and \"command mode\"."}, {"response": 23, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:21)", "body": "However it is true that VI is still in some ways a kind of hopped-up line editor (this is a kind of software dating back to 1960's mainframes and paper TTY terminals) -- and not a true from-the-ground-up screen editor; also, VI has some features that are rather new-user-unfriendly, such as the invisible distinction between \"insert mode\" and \"command mode\". I don't deny it. It just that I've been using it since the early 80s and, since I have no problem with it, have never bothered to learn another."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (11:09)", "body": "Okay, Super-geeks, can you fix my problem? I am so behind on the Firth Drool (about 200 posts, don't ask how that happened).With all the pretty pictures there are my computer/modem suffers from indigestion, and gets locked after about 100 posts, so I never get to the end. Amy, if you would be so kind as to bring back dbut(cute name, dbutt)I could skip forward, back up and redisplay. If that's not possible, is there any other way I could do it?"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (13:31)", "body": "Cara Caro, shame on you for that level of neglect. Actually the topic has now been archived. I think the dbut button was set to make a page with a day's worth of old posts, but you can specify the same kind of address yourself. Say, for example you wanted to see the last seven days with of the archived thread, you'd use this URL: http://208.199.212.10/yapp-bin/restricted/read/austenarchive/117/all/since/-7 Just change the last three items to make it work in any /conference-in any/topic-for any/-number of days Anybody else mourning the loss of dbut? I can bring it back or set the drool link to a certain number of days."}, {"response": 26, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (02:51)", "body": "Another shortcut is to use \"noresp\" (no responses) - for example if you just wanted to get to the response window in this topic without seeing any postings, you could change the \"new\" to \"noresp\": http://208.199.212.10/yapp-bin/restricted/read/austen/215/noresp Then you'd be jumped directly to the enter-your-response window (bypassing all responses), and also to the Redisplay field, where you could enter a response number of your choice to redisplay from."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:42)", "body": "Well, I'm done with Oldiznu...again. I shall light a candle to help ward off the next manifestation."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:43)", "body": "Thanks Joan and Amy. And thanks for the archives! Amy, I promise not to go to work so often that I get behind on my drooling again! I'll try the -1 thing, that did great for me. I have even got dbut in my computer, how I know not. He cannot do his magic there , of course. I'd be glad to see him back on a -1 basis. Would you have to remove THAT WELSHMAN first? And I'll save up for a new modem, too.Promise!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (14:05)", "body": "BTW, anybody who is upgrading to a 28.8 and has a (probably preferably) external 14.4 to toss out, let me know."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (14:30)", "body": "Amy, just upgraded to 33.6, but my old 14.4 is internal, still want it?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (19:17)", "body": "Cheryl, first your choir sings the Kyrie, now this... I shall light a candle to help ward off the next manifestation. .. Are you sure that you're not a closet Catholic? :)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (23:39)", "body": "Cindy: Are you sure that you're not a closet Catholic? LOL Cindy! I know you're going to scoff at this, but I am a \"High Church Methodist.\" Yes, there is such an animal! ;-)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:46)", "body": "Cheryl, do you do Taize by any chance?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (11:43)", "body": "I do windows, if it helps :)"}, {"response": 35, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:50)", "body": "Please pardon my Spring ignorance, but when I went to drool the other day (my first time, no less) something happened when I was in the Ciaran Hinds drool, and I ended up somewhere else, and when I went back, Ciaran was GONE! What have I DONE????!!!!! HELP!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:59)", "body": "He probably blipped over into the realm of the forgotten, Lynn. If your remember button doesn't work like mine doesn't, I've put in a little undocumented link for all new forgotten messages. Look for the tiny \"n/f\" on the cover page of the conference."}, {"response": 37, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:55)", "body": "He probably blipped over into the realm of the forgotten, Actually, he probably just blipped over into the realm of already read - because of that stupid no cache thing. As soon as another post is made there it will probably re-appear, and when it does, you can use the redisplay field to ask it to redisplay from a response number earlier than the currently displayed responses. Alternately, you can choose \"All\" instead of \"new\" at the beginning of the conference in order to find out which item number is Ciaran Hinds drool (unless you happen to have memorized it ). Then you can choose it and redisplay all of it."}, {"response": 38, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (21:12)", "body": "Amy and Joan, thank you! HE\"S BACK! :-) ! The n/f didn't work, but clicking all did, so there he was!! Thanks so much for the help. I am sure there are much more efficient ways for me to look at all these topics, but I haven't wanted to take the time to find out what they are yet!! Thanks again!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (21:47)", "body": "I've lost my Dillweed.Am I alone, or is this deliberate policy?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (22:02)", "body": "It's seems to have faded away..."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (22:45)", "body": "Now that you pointed it out, I've lost it too! Thought it was just me. Back to the store, buy more dill!!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (23:52)", "body": "I'll sprinkle a little more on the counter."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (00:27)", "body": "I have a little dill, but is fainter than it was--almost invisible."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "Seems to have been replaced by microscope slides of unicellular animals- interesting, but is it Regency, do you think?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Tue, Apr  1, 1997 (19:59)", "body": "I'm back with another problem. I tried to go into chat today, but when I clicked on Enter Chat Room, is said \"Hey, you didn't enter a username\" but it never gave me the oppotunity to enter one. Have I done something wrong? Am I the only one here since the days the spring was down?! Hello out there!!?? Help!!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Apr  1, 1997 (21:03)", "body": "There are only a few left. I miss all the activity."}, {"response": 48, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Wed, Apr  2, 1997 (22:35)", "body": "Spring was down, and...? Reminds me of a sci fi story where the world was bombed and only two humans were left alive in NYC. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 216, "subject": "A Jane Austen Soap Opera", "response_count": 49, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (13:27)", "body": "Some plots would be missing : the alien abduction, the spy and some kind of spy agencies, the illegetimate child (although this one is possible), and so many other :)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (14:52)", "body": "I finally stopped watching the soap that I was faithful to for 15 years, because they buried a leading character alive, funeral, coffin the whole bit. After she was buried we hear her voice say \"Why is it so dark? Where am I?\" I was so disgusted, I turned it off in a huff and have never looked back!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:39)", "body": "Cheryl was that Days of our Lives, by any chance."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (15:47)", "body": "Dr. Marlena Evans. I think that is when I stopped watching. Either that or Stefano returning for the 43 time."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (01:20)", "body": "Why yes, it was DOOL, and it was Carly who was buried alive. That show is infamous for bring people back from the dead...why, one would think that Salem was the site of the Second Coming!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (02:24)", "body": "Anne, that would commercialised Jane Austen's works to an even greater extent.. I hope no one from the network sees this!!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (04:36)", "body": "Reminds me of an article I read last year (in Toronto Arts Newspaper?). I can't find it currently on the internet, but I kept a copy (from Feb 15, 1996). ASUTEN-MANIA MELTDOWN: Secret Memo betrays all-Austen cable conspiracy by Tom Lyons. The article purports to be setting up an all-Austen format for a cable tv channel. It includes a possible future schedule. A few examples: 8 p.m. Movie:****Sense and Sensibility 5: The Dashwoods in Moscow (Drama). Julia Ormond, Lisa Kudrow. The Dashwoods lose their tiny Moscow apartment to Communist Party officials. Mrs. Dashwood is tortured to death. Marianne must choose between dull Red Army man and dashing spy. The Simpsons: Bart is sent home from school after insisting that Jane Austen has a bionic eye. 1:30 a.m. Movie: **Pride and Prejudice XXI: Black Wedding (Horror). Margot Kidder, John Saxon. Upset that Elizabeth Bennet has spurned his marriage proposals, Mr. Collins hides in the cellar of Longbourn, killing off her sisters with a rusty axe. CNN Sports Latenight: Highlights of Dallas vs. Pittsburgh lawn bowling championship. MM Rap City: Ice Cube discusses slavery in Mansfield Park. 4 a.m. CNN Drossfire: William F. Buckley ridicules Ice Cube's views on slavery in Mansfield Park."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (08:47)", "body": "Johanne - re #1: I don't know.....seems to me that Mr. Collins IS an alien life form. And Anne de Bourgh's perpetual illnesses could be a byproduct of all that alien experimentation. Boy, I hope no one's cloned Lady Catherine, a la the X-files! (Or certain sheep) ;) RE #7 - LOL!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (08:53)", "body": "Kathleen -- it's online at http://www.eye.net/Arts/Movies/Features/FF/1996/ff0215.htm"}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (11:21)", "body": "Maybe Fanny Price wakes up in the shower: \"It was all a dream!\""}, {"response": 11, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "No that would be Emma who wakes up in the shower. You see, Harriet really married Mr Elton, Jane Fairfax married Mr Knightley, George Knightley and Frank Churchill became a drug addicted, poor highwayman. Mr Woodhouse died from poisonous gruel and Poor Miss Taylor was arrested for giving it to him. You see he would not listen to anyone when they kept telling him that she was now Mrs Weston. The voices told her to do it. You see, when Emma comes out of the shower she is magically transported to Pember ey where she has now become Mr Darcy and she can switch her personality but she really likes Lizzy but she presumes that because Lizzy has no money and her mother is not tolerable like Mr Woodhouse. Lydia has not run of with Wickham, but is pregnant by Mr Bingley who is also having an incestuous affair with Mrs Hurst and Heather Locklear some how fits into the whole story. whew"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (13:33)", "body": "Geez! ;-p"}, {"response": 13, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (14:05)", "body": "H.C. {#() -- thank you for posting the link. I lost last year's links when I switched from MS-Explorer to Netscape, and I couldn't figure out where to look. Laura (#11) -- LOL!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Donna", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (15:48)", "body": "Laura this is why I hate soaps and haven't watched one in 17 years. I think Jane Austen would have like some of the early/now TV sitcoms."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (16:11)", "body": "Laura - and how many soaps have you watched recently???? LOL. But you left out a psychologist or two - maybe Caroline Bingley is the psychologist! Anne Eliot is the long suffering nurse at a hospital where Mr. Collins is the gossip/doctor and Lydia is the candystriper! Of course, then everybody has been or is married to someone, which will change in a year to everyone moving one step to the left and marrying or sleeping with the next partner!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (16:13)", "body": "Really, Donna? Would she have liked \"Three's Company?\" I don't think so."}, {"response": 17, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (16:14)", "body": "Actually a sort of biography filmed, with some additions made, based on JA letters might work rather well. Some fiction thrown in. Affair with Tom Lefroy. Rumor in the Lefroy family, down the years indicates perhaps bad treatment of JA by Mr Lefroy. Difficulities with her mother's ailment. Tragedies involving some of her family friends. Move to Bath. Criticisms of her family members, her brother, after the death of his wife. That sort of thing. JA visit to the Prince Regent's palace. Might throw in a fictional meeting. That kinda thing. Could work. Maybe BBC is already planning something. Contrast of JA real lifestyle, vs that of those we see in the film versions. Trouble with money, printers, publishers, etc. Just might work."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Donna", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (16:25)", "body": "I was thinking more like \"Father Knows Best\",\"Patty Duke Show\", \"Cheers\", \"Frazier\", and \"3rd Rock From the Sun\".\"Three's Company\" never entered my mind. How about some of the dramas that are on now/then. Did anyone happen to see \"The Practice\" the other night? Loved it! New obession."}, {"response": 19, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (18:50)", "body": "Oh come on guys she would have love MELROSE PLACE , like totally cool. man. Actually I haven't watched a soap opera in about 7 years. But they are all the same. Always hopping in one bed and out of the other."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (20:39)", "body": "Donna.....I saw the last half and thought it was very good indeed! I will tune in again next week...it's kind of ER in the courtroom. I like the main lawyer too...not too bad to look at. I hope they keep the scripts coming with the same intelligence that the premiere had!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (20:51)", "body": "You are right, Donna, I twisted what you said. Sorry."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (02:14)", "body": "This is getting disgusting, people. I don't think even Aaron Spelling likes MP anymore, to be perfectly honest."}, {"response": 23, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (11:19)", "body": "I saw MELROSE for the first time about a month ago, and thought it was a scream! They may not be playing it as camp, but that's what it is. To add to the JA Bio Soap: that bit with one of her relations being imprisoned for shoplifting! Starring: Robert Shapiro as the Austen Defense Attorney!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (12:26)", "body": "Ewwwwwww!!!!! This is making me as nauseous as the disco talk over at Drool!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (14:14)", "body": "Cheryl, now don't dis disco:)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (14:47)", "body": "Too late Laura! ;-)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (15:50)", "body": "I have to agree with my AUntie! Disco and Darcy?! Insupportable!!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (16:06)", "body": "Okay guys just for you seeing that it is the weekend and I will not be chatting with you guys until Monday: Here we go: ITS FUN TO BE AT THE YMCA, WHY DON'T YA COME TO THE YMCA. IN THE NAVY ACROSS THE SEVEN SEAS IN THE NAVY Auntie have a wonderful weekend:-0_____ I'm drooling"}, {"response": 29, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (16:17)", "body": "I am sick! It was terrible when they came out the first time! And, yes, I was there. Been there. Done that. Thought we cured it"}, {"response": 30, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (18:21)", "body": "] Response 10 of 21: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Thu, Mar 6, 1997 (11:21) ] Maybe Fanny Price wakes up in the shower: \"It was all a dream!\" Intriguing idea -- but when does she wake up, and how much of it was a dream? Surely not her whole life since she was 10 years old?!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Linda", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "I actually read a very good book a while ago, where the main character is the creator and head writer of a \"Regency\" soap opera. It was a great read, and it made me wish that such a show existed for real. The book is \"Again\" by Kathleen Gilles Seidel."}, {"response": 32, "author": "brad", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (07:20)", "body": "How about any or all of the Austen ladies appearing on Baywatch. I know it isn't a soap but(t) hey, I'd watch it!. Of course Ann Elliot would have to be left out-- she's far to old to appear on a Baywatch beach. David Hasselhoff as Darcy? Could this be a new drool topic?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "brad", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (07:35)", "body": "Or better yet, replace Hasselhoff with CF. This way his fans could see him wet all the time. Also, replace Pamela Anderson with JE. I'd love to see her in an Empire bodice swimsuit. She must be a good swimmer- she's already been given credit for being a good walker."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (12:53)", "body": "Brad - LOL. I like your idea! I've never once seen Baywatch, but your recasting might just make me start watching it - especially CF wet all the time and JE in an Empire bodice swimsuit. Great idea!!;-)"}, {"response": 35, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (13:08)", "body": "What say I to Baywatch & CF always wet -- \"I want to go to Brighton! A little sea-bathing would set me up forever!\""}, {"response": 36, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (13:27)", "body": "Brad, LOL and appreciating your unique male perspective! :)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (20:22)", "body": "Brad...you are my kinda guy! With ideas like that....we should take up a collection and send you to Hollywood! Colin on the beach....(where's Joans m-m-m-m-m when we need it?)"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (21:41)", "body": "Now hold it a minute...No one, except perhaps Candace, enjoys seeing Darcy WET as much as I, but...Baywatch? I'm getting the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (00:30)", "body": "yep, Cheryl, I'm starting to think that I might not be upset if I accidentally \"Forgot\" this topic. Baywatch? Darcy?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (01:03)", "body": "I beg of you Mrs. Bennet \"no soaps or Baywatch\"."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (12:55)", "body": "Come on guys, won't there be any sports today? Cheryl what harm can a little baywatching do? It is not Darcy! It is our Colin's gonna do it..rescue them damsels and have his hair all curly and wet...be reasonable! And stride through the sand and the waves ..very beneficial for the thighs too! Please!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (14:08)", "body": "]David Hasselhoff as Darcy? Could this be a new drool topic? Let me quote Lizzy : Never! Let me see Darcy as anotyher captain for a new Enterprise and then rescue damzels in distress... Holodeck anyone?"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (23:42)", "body": "very beneficial for the thighs too! Please! Oh well, then count me in!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (11:13)", "body": "Holodeck anyone? I wish, I wish, Johanne!(I thought Cecily had something on this line.Where are you, madam?)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Mari", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (11:45)", "body": "I could see the Collins household as a sit-com, with new, daffy suggestions by Lady Catherine to 'improve' their house very week, Charlotte trying to avoid them, and Mr. Collins so eager to implement them; think 'The Dick Van Dyke Show' for a format."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (21:49)", "body": "Baywatch? It's almost as bad as making Lizzie as Zenia."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (05:06)", "body": "Xena's cool."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:08)", "body": "I must add my support to the Warrior Princess camp - and it is high camp, indeed!"}, {"response": 49, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (11:09)", "body": "To My Dear Cassandra: It is a truth universally acknowledged that when two handsome people get together they cannot or will not leave their hands off each other. However small the sphere of the town in which they live, you can be sure that they have made violent love to everyone. I am bespeaking of a well known MELROSE PLACE. Lady Catherine De Burgh would definitely speak ill of all the families. Which to some peculiarity are more then four and Twenty. As the little is becoming quite tiresome I must beg leave. But I do not beg you not to take up with Mr Firth until we have had some further acquaintance with his family, It is not known if he comes from good people and to have our name brought about in a shameful manner would be most seriously displeasing. As our Cousing Fanny Knight has done by becomin engaged and then breaking it off. reminiscent of mine with Mr Biggs Wither whom I could never marry. He had not behaved in a most gentlemanly behavio r. And his teeth, sister. Ah well, please do try to check out that little story that I mentione above. Yours &tc Miss Austen austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 217, "subject": "Caro Bingley or Caro Darcy? (Was Husband: Bingley or Darcy?)", "response_count": 20, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "Well, I am slow tonight. When I saw the name of this new topic, I thought, good lord, are we still talking about whether Darcy would have married Caroline if he and Lizzy hadn't gotten together? Took me a few minutes to realize that Mrs. Elton had started this thread, using Amy's name."}, {"response": 2, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar  6, 1997 (20:23)", "body": "Anne3, I am slower than you, since I had to read your message before I did get it. Too punny!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Mar  7, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "are we still talking about whether Darcy would have married Caroline if he and Lizzy hadn't gotten together? Took me a few minutes to realize that Mrs. Elton had started this thread, using Amy's name. Anne3 - me too! And LOL for the Mrs. Elton part."}, {"response": 4, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (23:42)", "body": "It would appear that I am the slowest one thus far. Even after reading your three posts, I'm still in the dark about the pun in the title. Anyone care to explain before we continue this discussion? TIA, Angela"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (01:17)", "body": "Angela: It would appear that I am the slowest one thus far. Even after reading your three posts, I'm still in the dark about the pun in the title. Anyone care to explain before we continue this discussion? It's not exactly a pun, Angela. It's making sport of Mrs. Elton in Emma who exposed herself as a pompous, self-important twit when she refered to her husband as \"My Cara Spousa\" Italian for \"My spouse/husband.\""}, {"response": 6, "author": "kate", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (08:33)", "body": "Caro/Cara means \"dear one\" or something like that in Italian, doesn't it?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (12:57)", "body": "And \"Caro\" is a common British diminutive of Caroline."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (14:42)", "body": "Thanks for asking, Angela. Now I understand, too!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:17)", "body": "Thanks for the explanation, Cheryl. :-) I would have never gotten it, unless I read Emma again or had a basic understanding of Italian. I know enough of four languages to have gotten that in any of them, but Italian just isn't one of them. Meggin: With English as the second language I learned, I'm always willing to ask questions, esp. in a discussion as friendly as this. So, you are very welcome. :-) Now to get this discussion back on track ... Neither Darcy, nor Elizabeth are likely to get on the other's nerves. Although Darcy is an introvert and Elizabeth is an extravert, Darcy would occasionally want a companion to chat and discuss things with, esp. someone as intelligent and lively as she. With the introverted tendencies we see in Elizabeth, such as walking alone, or reading, I'm certain that she can find other things of interest if Darcy is in need of some privacy. Besides if she wants another companion, I'm certain Mrs. Reynolds would be a iable to discuss things regarding the house and most likely her master, whom she has known since he was four years old. Certainly once Bingley and Jane move within thirty miles of Pemberley, Elizabeth could always visit, if she was in dire need of company. The most likely problem is that Darcy and Elizabeth will never have enough time to spend with one another. With business keeping Darcy busy and an estate full of servants and eventually children to keep Elizabeth busy, more than likely they will never h ve all the time they wish to be together."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (19:56)", "body": "Angela, I agree that Lizzy and Darcy will be hard pressed to find enough time together; I am also sure they will each consult the other if they ever have a problem where they need a sounding board. In the meantime, Lizzy also has Georgiana to talk and discuss with - and I'm sure Georgiana will get more lively as she comes under Lizzy's influence. A very happy marriage all around! BTW, when I first saw the title of this topic I couldn't decide whether it referred to Mrs. Elton's \"caro sposo\" or Colin's Italian girlfriend!!;-)"}, {"response": 11, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (22:00)", "body": "Good point, Inko. I never thought of Georgiana. She would be an excellent sounding board for both. The only drawback would be if she marries someone who takes her well out of Derbyshire."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (11:26)", "body": "Mrs. Elton's \"caro sposo\" or Colin's Italian girlfriend!!;-) ROFLOL!Inko,imagine the Darcy-voice, \"Cara, cara,bellissima Isabella!\" Almost as good as \"Aimable et charmante Elisabet!\" Johanne Please say you understand what I'm trying to say here!I am SURE no-one else will!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (12:42)", "body": "Gotcha! still wish I could find who did the dubbing of Darcy"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (13:17)", "body": "Have either of you taped the dubbed version?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (14:04)", "body": "Must say I'm guilty and shared it too..."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (01:06)", "body": "Back to caro sposos'.. Caro Bingley would make a very generous husband from his easy going nature. He was very kind to the Wickhams and sensible enough to move away from Netherfield where connections, that could and would embarrass must have been hounding them on a regular basis. Besides, he and Jane too would never get on each other's nerves. Jane never wanting to see the faults in others and Bingley, a pleasing personality which will neither give or take offence. Though I think Darcy would be the stronger of the two and more appealing (to me). I wonder how Miss Bingley and Mrs Hurst must have gotten on with Jane hereon after?? It must have been a real pill to swallow."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:54)", "body": "Amy, gotta admit that I have Johanne's copy, and am very reluctant to give it back. They have done an amazing job with the translation. Lady C has a marvellous raspy, smoker's voice and some lovely lines. Darcy doesn't have his Hmmm. or even the OOOOHNO! in the inn scene ( it's kind of ah, non, non!- very much more low-key, still good.) Mrs Bennet is all screechy and wonderful. Even having the commercials in a different place puts a different slant on the story. Johanne, I'll mail it back now, since March Break is here and I have time to Breathe! Serena, cara, apologia!No more interruptions!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Nicole", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (22:33)", "body": "Caroline and Johanne, Yes I also thought that the dubbing was very well done, when I was watching it I got caught up in the story once again and forgot about the dubbing. I thought that it was interesting that they kept the word Miss in, I guess Mademoiselle is too long... Although in Valmont they used it all the time. Oh well I'm just thinking out loud now."}, {"response": 19, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (11:28)", "body": "Yes but Valmont was set in France, P&P in England, so they might have thought to use the proper tone, giving it the english feel it deserved. Glad we can shae this together. Anyone interested in viewing it, pray do not hesitate to ask for the tape, will be glad to share it and you'll have another lucky P&P short version at the end as an added bonus :)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (16:31)", "body": "A bonus indeed, Johanne! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 219, "subject": "Austen Sequels", "response_count": 73, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (06:01)", "body": "Alright, I read Billington's Perfect Happiness , the most recent and supposed best of the Emma sequels to date. I believe I could have liked it less only if it were the sacreligious Emma Tennant sequel. Okay, I hated the treatment of Frank (the peanut gallery yawns and says, \"Right, Kali, sure...\")...she made him out to be some ineffectual, psyco-lunatic rather than the capable (the man sure can fix a pair of spectacles!), if flaky and selfish, character of Austen's creation. Billington makes John into a greedy, uninsightful apparition, and confines Mr. Knightley, for the most part, to functional muteness, simple insipidity, and intellectual ignorance. Sick-and-wrong! I disliked her new characters and their influence on Emma (which, thank God, doesn't last), and thought some of her metaphors ridiculous (one involving Mr. Elton and a cough drop pops into my mind). While I did like her general development of Emma's character, esp. re: views on children, learning, etc., it seemed that most other characters and general plot continuity (esp. re: Frank) suffered. Mr. Knightley and Emma spend much of the story as ships passing in the night, which bugs generally, not to mention the fact that it reminds me of the dodge-and-thrust moves Alexandra Ripley puts Rhett and Scarlett through in her Scarlett sequel to GWTW. In general, I thought that Billington's and Ripley's sequels had parallel faults (are these common traits, perhaps, the ingredients of all unsuccessful sequels?) - Everything goes down hill when Scarlett puts off for Ireland, and when Emma rots off to London. Change of scene and society, while it may make for explosive new possiblities in plot development, really screws with the authenticity of the mood."}, {"response": 2, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (11:07)", "body": "Just a reminder, I have a WWW page at: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/austseql.html"}, {"response": 3, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "I think it should be a general rule: AVOID AT ALL COST, LIKE THE PLAGUE!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (16:34)", "body": "Does anyone know anything about the new P&P sequel advertised in the spring 97 edition of JASNA news? It's called 'Duty and Desire'."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "The best P&P \"sequel\" (actually, it's a modern update) I've read is: Kate Fenton's LIONS & LIQUORICE. An absolute scream, and darned if I don't have a topic posted on this very board about it!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (09:45)", "body": "I recently read two Emma sequels or \"classic progression\" as they were called. What a joke! Emma in Love by Tennant was horrible! Perfect Happiness was not much better. What is this business in both of Emma being happy, but not really \"happy\". I choose to think that Emma would be perfectly happy with Mr. Knightly. I cannot believe that he would not be a passionate lover from the very beginning. I am trying to read Pemberly now, but I might not make it through."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (11:20)", "body": "The Tennant sequels to P&P are quite horrible. The last one was so bad I literally couldn't get past page 10. There's a play by Jane Murfin based on P&P that isn't half-bad; ditto, the play by E.B. White. But these are dramatizations as opposed to sequels. I've also read SHADES OF PEMBERLEY. Yech. Have yet to find a decent sequel beyond our own Writer's Guild here."}, {"response": 8, "author": "haker", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (12:22)", "body": "Has any one read Joan Austen-Leigh's Latter Days at Highbury ? I just saw it in two bookstores yesterday, and I was wondering if it was any good."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (12:47)", "body": "Hi Ann , are you visiting that cybercaf\ufffd again. Hope your computor will be back and dine with you...ooups at your service before long, I meant to say. That autorname does seem to imply some definite value...though I have never heard of the book. Dare I say that if you must read something after P&P, Presumption was not all that bad. Though it concentrates on Georgiana and has very little to tell about Darcy and Lizzy (from what I remember). Has anyone read Jane Fairfax ?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "No, Ann2, but I might like to. Everyone knows I have a special interest in the affairs of that lady."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:18)", "body": "]I am trying to read Pemberly now please, I beg you; Don't do it! it's truly horrible!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:06)", "body": "I think we can rule out Emma Tennant per se. \"An equal marriage\" left a foul taste. Kali, apart from passion, can you imagine how it must feel like to be married to someone who is 'always right'. It must be so humiliating and I know I would be very frustrated. Perhaps, she'll mature into what he wants to mould her into. But this is just for the sake of conversation, I do love the novel and the Knightley / Emma characters."}, {"response": 13, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:07)", "body": "Kim, listen to Anna. Don't waste your time on that dribble. I'd rather have a root canal than read that book again!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:59)", "body": "Isn't it a pity that Emma Tennant doesn't visit this site to get some real, honest opinions of her books!! Doubt it would have much effect, though!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (21:13)", "body": "Kali, apart from passion, can you imagine how it must feel like to be married to someone who is 'always right'. It must be so humiliating and I know I would be very frustrated. Perhaps, she'll mature into what he wants to mould her into. The rub here is that Mr. Knightley actually is always right...well, except for maybe his first impressions of Harriet, and he was a bit hard on my dear Frank...but where it really matters (re: Harriet, for ex.), he is quick to point out his mistakes and apologize for them. Also, Mr. Knightley has not, for all of his blusterings, treated Emma in a humiliating fashion...he makes it very clear that he respects her intelligence and fully expects her to snap out of any foolishness she's mired in (\"Upon my word, Emma, to hear you abusing the reason you have...better be without sense than misapply it as you do.\"). This isn't Pygmalion at Galatea...Mr. Knighltey isn't fashioning a dream for himself, he's trying to help Emma reach the height of her adult potential (even if it is only to be wasted on Frank) - this is a guy with quite a bit on the ball and a very young, silly girl who needs a bit of prodding to save her from herself. She does eventually come around, with his help - and when she does, he's there waiting for her. :::)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (21:34)", "body": "... can you imagine how it must feel like to be married to someone who is 'always right'. It must be so humiliating and I know I would be very frustrated. Such men do exist in the real world. I am married to one, but I find it neither humiliating nor frustrating. I cherish the fact that he is more intelligent than I in some areas for his guidance is invaluable. In matters where he is not as experienced, he does not hesitate to ask questions in order to further his own understanding. He is 'never wrong' because he never places himself in a position where he is dependent on the whims and inconsistencies of his character. In most ways, he is a better pers n than I am and the changes I've made for the better in the years since our marriage have come from observing his model of behavior. He has never tried to mold me in to his character---he is mostly oblivious to his own virtues. Just because one is never wrong does not necessarily mean that a snobbish attitude is necessary, but Tennant does not sound perceptive enough to realize that......"}, {"response": 17, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (21:36)", "body": "I read \"Jane Fairfax\" by Aiken, and it was Ok (serviceable, but not really enthralling); for me it was much better than Presumption and not quite as good as the 1975 Sanditon -- the two other sequels I've read (well OK, I actually returned Presumption to the library one third of the way through...)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (00:23)", "body": "Kali, Mr. Knightley shall never want for a defense with you around (what a lawyer you will make!) -- thanks for saying it for the rest of us! Serena, you bring up lots of good points -- we're just SOOOOO loyal! Meggin, it sounds like you have a husband in a million!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (00:50)", "body": "And I do love Mr Knightley so passionately too.. darling Willoughby takes a close second place. I think it's Meggin who should take the credit - her willingness to appreciate and uphold the man she loves. Are there any sequels to S&S? Or have I overlooked it from above."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (04:13)", "body": "Meggin is indeed lucky! Sorry if I become strident in my defenses of my dearest Mr. Knightley...I guess that only the true believers understand! ;) So H...should I bother with JF or not?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (11:09)", "body": "What's all this talk about \"Pride & Prejudice - The Musical.\" I understand there's one lurking out there that's FOR REAL. I mean, there _is_ a \"Titanic - the Musical\" ready to go on Broadway now, so anything's possible. . ."}, {"response": 22, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "Although I am not certain about a \"real\" musical, the Friends of Firth have a tongue-in-cheek musical version of P&P at: http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/firthlist/ppmusical.html It's quite funny."}, {"response": 23, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:38)", "body": "Anything is possible, Amy. Last January, I saw Jane Eyre, the musical in Toronto. It a big extravaganza-heading for Broadway. I admit I was skeptical, but the songs(I'm still swooning over Secret Soul) and the performances(Anthony Crivello from Kiss Of the Spider Woman played Rochester) won me over. The best Bertha I ever saw too-just the way I had always imagined her: untamed hair, wild eyes, foaming at the mouth. It was incredible."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (14:00)", "body": "There is a musical. I am a little foggy on it. It may have been run a short time -- or never produced, not sure. At any rate there is a CD and a web site, which is linked from the links page here."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:34)", "body": "Re P&P musical: there have been two. The more recent one which Amy refers to, and an older one, circa 1959 or thereabouts, called First Impressions. I stumbled across it years ago while researching another Broadway production that opened in the same season, and I distinctly remember reading at least one favorable review, but it's obviously vanished from view. I wonder if the book and score survive."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:51)", "body": "Serena: Are there any sequels to S&S? Or have I overlooked it from above. There is a sequel called \"The Third Sister\" by Julia Barrett. It's about Margaret when she's in her late teens and her sisters are both married. I got it in England in paperback last summer - says published 1996. I think it's also available here - saw it in hardback at Borders before Christmas. It's not bad - certainly much better than Tennant, but I think it makes Margaret rather tame - I've always thought of her as the adventurous type!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (21:54)", "body": "Thanks Inko,I'll now place my order with one of the internet bookstores for this and Darcy's Story. Margaret probably learned from her older sisters' heartbreaks and conforms to what society expects of a lady??"}, {"response": 28, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (11:00)", "body": "It seems we're all in agreement that we dislike the Tennant sequels. If this woman so offends the faithful, then why does she keep publishing? Does ANYONE like her work?"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:54)", "body": "Amy2: It seems we're all in agreement that we dislike the Tennant sequels. If this woman so offends the faithful, then why does she keep publishing? Does ANYONE like her work? About Emma Tennant: there was a story in the N.Y. Times a while back about her. She had been hired to write another sequel to GWTW (because, incredibly, the guy making the decision had actually liked Pemberley). She produced a long MS pretty quickly, but it was rejected by the American publisher, who wrote an unusually harsh memo criticizing her characterizations, plot, style, and everything else that goes into making a novel. Tennant was reportedly very upset, and the matter caused a minor fur r in Britain. As to how she ever got published in the first place, I understand that she has a lot of influential family and friends--her father was an aristocrat and Antonia Fraser is a pal."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (13:47)", "body": "Is she related to Stella Tennant, the model? She's BB, too..."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Serena", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (16:58)", "body": "So her book must be selling to us-unsuspecting folks and her family and father's friends.. that could be a lot of people."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Serena", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:00)", "body": "Just another thougt, may be they didn't realise her books were sequels. On it own, would her books have fared any better? I'm too bias to answer that."}, {"response": 33, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (18:59)", "body": "BB?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "summit", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "BB?? Big bucks? Big Business? British Bore/Boor? Beavis & Butthead? endless sarcastic permutations... ;-)"}, {"response": 35, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:15)", "body": "How about Blue Bloods?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:34)", "body": "Kathleen got it."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:41)", "body": "Kali, come to Pemberley. There is a party going on."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:48)", "body": "wish i could go (darn ole aol!) :-("}, {"response": 39, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (00:54)", "body": "Ok, I missed that party sob! sob! signed in as eveyone was signing off. But.. here's what Publisher's Weekly thought of Emma Tennant's continuation of P&P \"Austen's cast of minor familiars gets a delicious comic workout while (Tennant's) descriptions surpass Asuten's in visual effects of art, decor and gardens. Austenites and Tennantites should love the whole package.\" Am I dense or does that really not say much about the book? I know this is not Tennant-bashing, but the book's lying here right in front of the keyboard."}, {"response": 40, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (01:29)", "body": "You're right, Serena. It doesn't say anything. Sounds like it was written by somebody who does not love Austen. Certainly none of us care that she does not describe nature."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (03:37)", "body": "Oh, bother! I missed the party! :("}, {"response": 42, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (03:52)", "body": "Hi Kali, still awake??"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (04:12)", "body": "Hiya! Yeah...as you already know! How are you?"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (04:16)", "body": "This is ridiculous, I'm 'chatting' with you in 3 topics - I'll stay at Emma2 with the lovely pics."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (05:18)", "body": "CIndy and I were doing the same thing this morning...I mean, YESTERDAY morning! ;)"}, {"response": 46, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (16:31)", "body": "Sooo. that would be my nighttime?? Anyway, I'm off to sunny skies in Aussie land for a short break.. If I find internet access, I'll tune in here with my 2 cents worth. See ya all! Maybe I'll get to see Mimic afterall"}, {"response": 47, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (10:59)", "body": "So Tennant surpasses Austen in setting descriptions,eh? That's like saying that Jackie Collins uses funnier character names than Dickens. . ."}, {"response": 48, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (11:12)", "body": "]BB?? Big bucks? Big Business? British Bore/Boor? Beavis & Butthead? endless sarcastic permutations... ;-) Nobody mentionned Brigitte Bardot :)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (12:58)", "body": "Johanne: Nobody mentionned Brigitte Bardot :) Or the Big Bopper! ;-)"}, {"response": 50, "author": "MUSHER", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (20:47)", "body": "I like most of the sequels in the Derbyshire Writers Guild, I've written a couple but don't know what to do with them. I'm looking foreward to Oscar night in the hope that all the cas of TEP will be there. Lucie Oftedahl"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Ann", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "I have heard (on E!'s Gossip Show) that Feinnes will not be at the Oscars. KST and Binoche will be there though."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (21:41)", "body": "Fiennes will definitely be at the Oscars. He is currently appearing in a play in London but there will be no performance on Oscar night so he can be in L.A. Miramax is picking up the tab for the lost box office."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Ann", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (21:46)", "body": "Cool, he must have worked things out with the play's producers. Glad to hear that I'm wrong. Now let's hope he has shaved off that hideous mustache he has been sporting lately."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (21:56)", "body": "I think he grew the moustache for the play! (Chekhov's Ivanov .)"}, {"response": 55, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "Difficult to shave the moustache and grow it back for the next night's performances! I guess he'll be there, moustache and all. Saw a picture of him and KST on the cover of Entertainment weekly--he had the moustache and she had her present short, blond hair."}, {"response": 56, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (03:29)", "body": "\"Why don't you just DIE, already! DIE!!!\" - Elaine, to TEP, 3/13/97, Seinfeld"}, {"response": 57, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (09:16)", "body": "Amy2 Concerning Dickens and JCollins, SG (Short giggle)"}, {"response": 58, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (09:46)", "body": "Re #50 Lucie I've written a couple but don't know what to do with them. Post them, Lucie! Just like you did here, in either Fan Fiction thread, depending on whether they're PG- or R-rated. I look forward to them!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (11:30)", "body": "- Elaine, to TEP, 3/13/97, Seinfeld Ah! Elaine was just jealous because she wasn't in that tub."}, {"response": 60, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (12:39)", "body": "Elaine was right! The movie was way too long and I didn't find it all that romantic either. Maybe if she hadn't cheated on her husband I would have felt some sorrow that she died alone in that cave."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:30)", "body": "To get back to the topic theme: Has anyone read Joan Austen-Leigh's \"A visit to Highbury\"? I found it in the public library today so took it out and hopefully get to it by the time it's due back!!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "\"and hopefully get to it by the time it's due back!!\" I am very familiar with that problem!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:58)", "body": "If Pemberley Shades is supposed to be such a good sequel, why doesn't somebody bring it out again. Hmm."}, {"response": 64, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (07:46)", "body": "Just bought \"Jane Fairfax\" and the \"Third Sister\" cannot decide which one to start on first.. So who is Pemberly Shades by??"}, {"response": 65, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (20:07)", "body": "Kali: also Patsy on AB FAB about her mother: \"Oh for God's sake, just die!\" I think I mentioned above that I've read Pemberley Shades and it's not good. Not good. That must be the reason for no reissue. . ."}, {"response": 66, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (03:21)", "body": ":)"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (11:56)", "body": "Anybody ever heard of this book or tape set? Author: Weldon Fay Title: Darcy's Utopia (7 Cassettes) Publ. year: 01.94 Availability: 001 Order Now! Binding: AA Price: $ 61.95 D ISBN: 1850896739 Textbook: W Publisher: ISIS PRESS Subjects: CAS-AUDIO-FICTION-UNABRIDGED Could it be a blueprint for my mythical nation?"}, {"response": 68, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:40)", "body": "Here'a what I was able to turn up on a web-search: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0140145419/2156-3110129-842000 Darcy's Utopia by Fay Weldon Reprint Edition Paperback Published by Penguin USA (Paper) Publication date: July 1992 http://www.lib.hel.fi/yleis/nfff/nfff952.html Author: WELDON, Fay Title: Hyv\ufffd paha onnela Orig. title: Darcy's Utopia Publisher: Otava, 1995 ISBN 951-1-12331-9 Two journalists, a man and a woman, interview a woman who prophesies of a new utopia and have a short-lived but intensive love affair. A satirical description of conflict between utopia and reality. Translated from English. ISBN: 0140145419"}, {"response": 69, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:52)", "body": "Fay Weldon is a familiar name to me. She has written some other P&P-related book/play in the past. . ."}, {"response": 70, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:56)", "body": "Fay Weldon wrote the book, Letters to Alice on First Reading Jane Austen. And didn't she write the screenplay for P&P2?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:59)", "body": "Duhh -- I meant P&P1, the adaptation w/ Elizabeth Garvie and David Rintoul."}, {"response": 72, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:31)", "body": "Yes she wrote the P&P1 screenplay. She's written a number of other novels also."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (18:06)", "body": "I found \"Jane Fairfax\" to be a fairly decent accompaniment to Emma. Amy2, I must have missed your earlier thumbs-down posting for Pemberly Shades. Is there any sequel to Mansfield Park.. or have that been covered too? austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 220, "subject": "Myers-Briggs Type Indicator", "response_count": 80, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (17:33)", "body": "I'll start this out for Angela with a link to an online site for the Keirsey Temperament Sorter. The Keirsey Temperament Sorter"}, {"response": 2, "author": "valen", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (19:15)", "body": "Myretta, glad to see this topic, I'd be very interested in following this conversation. Hope everyone jumps on the band wagon."}, {"response": 3, "author": "valen", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (19:49)", "body": "Myretta, glad to see this topic, I'd be very interested in following this conversation. Hope everyone jumps on the band wagon."}, {"response": 4, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (20:05)", "body": "Thanks, Myretta. That's probably the best place to start to get an understanding of personality typing. To get things started, let's look at the personality types of the main characters. Elizabeth - ENFJ (Incidentally, this personality is best suited for the clergy.) Darcy - ISTJ or INTJ Jane - ISFP? Bingley - ES?P Elizabeth (ENFJ) is an Extravert because of her lively disposition, although she can be introspective enough to be a borderline Introvert as an Extravert gets energy from external sources while Introverts get energy from internal sources. As an iNtuitive and Feeling type, she is good at discerning people and their dispositions. It also adds to her charm as she can instinctively shift her tone and body language to push her position in a conversation. As a Judging person, she makes judgements based on what he sees, as she judges Darcy from his external behaviour. Darcy (ISTJ or INTJ) is a definite and probably extreme Introvert as he appears to have little external reaction to others and any opinions are kept safely inside. He tires easily at social occasions as other people sap his energies as in the Meryton assembly. He thinks before he speaks and \"doesn't perform to strangers\". As a Sensing type, he is suppose to zone in on little details, esp ISTJs. Attention to detail is one of the best characteristics of a Sensor. As an affirmed ISTJ, I'm not so sure that Da cy fits as well in this category. He makes judgements based not always on facts, but rather by what he believes and projects, which is more of an iNtuitive trait. INTJs are known to be people who make quick decisive decisions and sticks to them. When he rides ahead of the rest of the party to Pemberley, it seems to be to pay attention to detail for his guests, but I think it could be just to get away from Caroline Bingley for a bit. As an Introvert Thinker, he would have trouble handling and dealing with ifficult people, which Miss Bingley definitely was. As for being a Judging type, the book is called Pride and Prejudice. It would be quite odd if the hero was someone who was not a judger. :-) Jane (ISFP?) is less outwardly oriented than Elizabeth, which is why I chose her to be an introvert. She doesn't appear to have a close friend outside the family, unlike Elizabeth who at least has Charlotte. As she appears to take people at face value and pays attention to detail, which is why I thought her to be a Sensor. She cares deeply not to hurt people and she is good with people, esp. children (as evidence, the Gardiner children), which makes me believe her to be a Feeling type. Finally for the Jud ing vs. Perception, that was the hardest and I'm still not sure which she is. She takes the wait and see approach on everyone's character and is careful not to judge them until she knows the extent of their actions, which is a typical perceptive type reaction. However, she exhibits the characteristics of an ISFJ, which are people who instinctively seem to know what presents to give everyone at Christmas. Do we have more evidence of one or the other? Bingley (ES?P) enjoys large parties with strangers (Meryton assembly) and makes quick decisions (as his quick acceptance of Netherfield as well as the comment he made regarding leaving it), both very much Extravert and Perception type qualities. I guessed at the Sensing type as he doesn't appear to go beyond the facts that Darcy and his sisters present to him in regards to Jane, but at the same time he doesn't appear to be a detailed oriented type of person, which makes him more of an iNtuitive. Any sugge tions? Other characters?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (21:23)", "body": "Bingley ESTP? \"I think.....\" \"She would be just as (forgot- not got book here) to me if she had relatives to fill all of Cheapside\" \"It shows a great affection for her sister\" Do I make sense here?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Sat, Mar  8, 1997 (22:54)", "body": "I'll have to look up an ESTP's profile again. But, from your evidence, Caroline, it sounds about right, esp. the \"fill all of Cheapside comment\". Since about 60% of thinkers are men, it is quite possible. Let me get back to you once I re-read the profile."}, {"response": 7, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (05:02)", "body": "There was a previous round of discussion on this topic during the fall of '96 which should be inclucded in the archives from the old BBS. For a little fun, go to the site of The Keirsey Temperament Sorter, and assume the role of one of the characters and answer the questions as you think s/he would have done based on Jane Austen's illustration of their personalities. JA has done such a good job of illustrating her characters that they will come out as a particular \"type\" a significant percentage of the ime no matter who answers the questions on their behalf."}, {"response": 8, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (19:08)", "body": "Joan, too: That's a good idea. The only thing is that I'm not very good at getting into someone else's shoes even if they are Darcy, Elizabeth, or any of the P&P gang. However, if anyone else wants to make an attempt, I'm more than happy to see the results. :-) Why don't you start, since you suggested it? That means that you get to pick from the entire pool of characters. Caroline, I read the ESTP profile in a book called Type Talk. (I'm not sure of who the author is since I don't have the book with me at work.) It seems that the ESTP profile is right on the money for Bingley. It mentions how ESTPs are very engaging and gregarious, even more so than any of the other types, which would explain why Bingley and Darcy are friends, as Darcy the Introvert is not likely to seek out new friends. Also, it mentions that ESTPs will drop whatever they are doing if they discover that i isn't worth the effort, and may be impatient with things that take a long time, which corresponds to the part when Elizabeth is at Netherfield during Jane's illness and Bingley says that he's very impatient with writing letters and how words seem to spill out faster than he can write them down. Very ESTP! Also after reading the profiles, I am incline to believe that Jane is an ISFJ because ISFJ children tend to be quiet, obedient, and well-organized, which I can see Jane being. I just can't explain away the non-judgemental aspect of her. As well, I am incline to believe that Darcy is more of an INTJ rather than an ISTJ because ISTJs are always doing things because it is part of their duty. They will adopt personalities that are suited for each occasion because they see it as their duty to act properly in a l situations. Darcy obviously does not do it as he shows a definite distaste at the Meryton assembly. Also, INTJs will always seek improvement in everything and everyone. They will do things just to improve. So when Elizabeth tells him that \"had he behaved in a more gentleman-like manner\", he improves himself to behave more gentlemanly. Also, he mentions at Netherfield that an accomplished lady should also improve her mind by extensive reading. I know in the Old BB discussions, two people who took the tes as Darcy found him to be an ISTJ. I'm most interested in what evidence they have to back that view when they took the test because as a confirmed ISTJ, I don't see him as one. As a character, he is imminently more interesting than I."}, {"response": 9, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "Why don't you start, since you suggested it? I already did in the earlier round. Did both Darcy and Lizzie, as did Steve (no longer with us) - and we both came up with the same types (though not exactly the same scores within a classification.)"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (10:51)", "body": "thanks, Angela and Joan. Now, Joan,tell me what I really want to know.............Did anyone do the temprement sorter in the guise of our favourite movie star, and if so, what did they come up with? Because it certainly wouldn't be Darcy's profile!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (18:18)", "body": "Joan, too: Since you were one of the two people who found Darcy to be an ISTJ, I'm wondering if you remember what answers you gave on the test? I know it's been a while, but if you can I would really be interested. Caroline, I would be interested in knowing that, too. Now onto type watching other characters. Lady Catherine - I would be inclined to see her as an ESFJ, but I am not certain. She is an Extravert because she likes having guests at Rosings even when they are just the Collinses and when Elizabeth, Darcy, and Col. Fitzwilliam are at the piano at Rosings, she interrupts them because \"she must have her share of the conversation\". Both typical characteristics of Extraverts. She is most likely a Sensor, because she pays extraordinary care of details even to the point of shelves in the closet in Elizabeth s room while she is staying at Hunsford. A Feeler because she has specific opinion that are strictly her own. A judger because she so frequently makes decisions quickly about everyone. The only thing that mystifies me is that ESFJs are suppose to be emminent hosts and hostesses, which I have trouble seeing. Can anyone think of facts that would back up that aspect of an ESFJ personality? Mrs. Bennet - I see her as an ESFP. She reminds me a lot of my mother-in-law, who is a definite ESFP! Extraverted because she likes attention as evidenced by the theatrics she gave on Lydia's elopement. As well as, constantly talking about her nerves. Sensing because she seems grounded in real world things. (I really don't have any real evidence to back that up, though.) Feeling because she is never objective about anything. Perceiving because she has troubles keeping a limit on excesses, which Judgers ge erally keep a better rein (sp?) on. Mr. Bennet now is a mystery. I can see him as an Introvert because he spends many hours locked up in his library and an iNtuitive because of his sarcasm and wit. However, I cannot determine his other types. Anyone want to hazard a guess?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (03:05)", "body": "Since you were one of the two people who found Darcy to be an ISTJ, I'm wondering if you remember what answers you gave on the test? Sorry, I can't even remember what the questions were at this point, much less the answers. But now that you have made predictions about Lady C. and Mr. and Mrs. B., try answering the questions \"as\" them, and try to come up with something that JA revealed about each of them to support the answer to each question and see how it comes out. It is true, of course, that even when taking the tempreament sorter \"as\" yourself, your own answers will vary from time to time depending on your mood and how your life has been going, or whether you answer as your \"personal\" or \"professional\" self."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (12:52)", "body": "It is true, of course, that even when taking the tempreament sorter \"as\" yourself, your own answers will vary from time to time depending on your mood and how your life has been going, or whether you answer as your \"personal\" or \"professional\" self. True Joan.Truth to tell, the first time I tried it (ages ago, before I even discovered this board) I came out as IXXX, which was absolutely usesless! The distribution of personality types is also touched upon at that site, I believe, and the authors express some surprise as to the percentages of each type represented by the samples in relation to the population at large and to the population of the internet.I havn't the heart to tell them that it might be because there are hundreds of demented Lizzy and D rcy Wannabes, Napoleon imitators, teens with random selector buttons for fingers, not to mention confused adults like me messing up their statistics for them."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:09)", "body": "I would love to see someone's assesment of Caroline Bingley; Angela, care to have a go at it?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (03:09)", "body": "and the authors express some surprise as to the percentages of each type represented by the samples in relation to the population at large and to the population of the internet. I havn't the heart to tell them that it might be because there are hundreds of demented Lizzy and Darcy Wannabes... Oh dear! Have they commented on that now? I must admit that I did feel a bit guilty responding as fictitious people. If they are seriously trying to keep statistics, perhaps someone should enlighten them? (Although there's really no way that they can expect to guarantee that all people participating via the net will be taking it seriously.)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:49)", "body": "Well I have just taken the test and I have come out ENTJ. Which I thinks suits me to a t. I'm definitely power hungry."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:13)", "body": "Oh, a fellow ENTJ! I read a description of the type that made me LOL - it's like our motto should be, \"hey, it's good to be blunt! You got a problem with that, peon?\""}, {"response": 18, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:35)", "body": "Tracey awesome line, that's exactly how I am!!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (14:24)", "body": "Any other INFJs out there? I was so impressed with what I read about this personality type because it was me, even down to occupation (teacher, but with a background in science and mathematics). They knew all of this from 65 questions? ;-) BTW, under the description for INTJ, Darcy is listed with a group of 'famous fictional INTJs\", along with Hannibal Lecter!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (14:34)", "body": "]BTW, under the description for INTJ, Darcy is listed with a group of 'famous fictional INTJs\", along with Hannibal Lecter! Yow! I guess we'd know to avoid a dinner date at Pemberley if the menu included fava beans and a nice chianti! ;)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (14:39)", "body": "Margaret, Hilary and I are almost your type; we are both INFP/borderline J's."}, {"response": 22, "author": "summit", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:23)", "body": "In a rare moment of candor, let me say I am an archetypal INTJ (married to an INTP, which makes for some pretty psychically synchronized conversations!) so reading Darcy's character in Austen's writing (and extending him in my own jottings) is nearly self-analysis at times... ;-)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (21:42)", "body": "Another INFJ (teacher type) here."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:00)", "body": "I've come out as INFP three times now, so I guess I'll stick with it. How do you feel being the same as Fanny Price, Amy?"}, {"response": 25, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:05)", "body": "INFJ (but I know in the past it came out ISFJ, but close)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:31)", "body": "It's nice to know that there are other INFJs out there----when I read that only 2% of the population was, I felt freakish (what-do-the-rest-of-you-have-that-I-don't kind of thing).;-) Which of Austen's characters would be INFJ? Jane Bennet?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:46)", "body": "I don't mind being thrown in with Fanny; I'm not a Fanny hater. But I don't particularly identify with her."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (22:52)", "body": "On second thought, scratch the Jane suggestion---I'm never that nice! But there was a point in my life when I was an \"Anne Elliot\" type...."}, {"response": 29, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (22:56)", "body": "re: 14 Sorry I haven't been around the last couple of days to predict Caroline Bingley. I have a deadline on Monday, and I just got a chance to drop by for a few minutes to drop off the prediction. After Monday, I'll get a chance to do more characters. Here's a stab. Caroline Bingley is quite snobbish, so that can cloud type watching somewhat. From what we have, she appears to be an Extravert, because she does seek out society even though we mainly see her seeking out Darcy. Also, she generally speaks before she thinks, which is another Extravert trait. Finally, she appears to be interested in being acquainted with more people than actually knowing them, which is another trait of an Extravert. She also appears to be rooted in details, as she points all of Elizabeth's ut in front of Darcy at Pemberley, and she asks about Georgiana's height at Netherfield, which would point her towards a Sensor type. As a person with lots of personal opinion, she appears to be a Feeler, but I'm going to have to take a look at her in better detail to confirm this type. Finally, she is more calculating than spontaneous, and she has a tendency to make judgements about people rather quickly, which points to a Judging personality. Thus, by this quick evaluation, she, like Lady Catherine, is n ESFJ, perhaps to a smaller degree as she has less power than Lady C. However, ESFJs can have problems with reality, so this may not be so far off. re: 12 Joan, Too: I can get a copy of the questions from the Kiersey book, as well as how to calculate the answers. So over the next week or two (after my deadline), I try to take a stab at my predictions, trying the test on paper. This way, I won't mess up anyone's statistics. Glad to see that this topic is picking up. Sometimes, taking the test as a character can be misleading, especially if the character is an introvert. Being an introvert, your most dominant type is hidden, and even the reverse of the type can be hard to detect. For instance, Sensors can be cast as iNtuitives or Feelers can be cast as Thinkers. The alternative is to type watch, which in my opinion is the reverse of taking the test as someone. What you do is take the type description and try to match the pers n to the type. There are usually key points of a person's personality that jump out at you when you read the type and match it with what you see. Which is essentially what I've done for the characters I have covered. A book I would recommend for Type Watching is called Type Talk by Otto Kroeger and Theresa Theusen (?). I don't have the book with me at the computer, but it covers a lot on Type Watching and what to look for. It also discusses how a person of a certain personality would parent, find life par ners, even how they could behave as children. Anyway, back to the grindstone. See ya next Tuesday!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:08)", "body": "Wow! Thanks Angela, and good luck with your Monday deadline."}, {"response": 31, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (14:05)", "body": ""}, {"response": 32, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (14:06)", "body": ""}, {"response": 33, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (14:07)", "body": "Here's what I got when I took the test in August 1996: Keirsey Temperament Test Results EI: 10 out of 10 Introvert 100% SN: 14 out of 17 iNtuition 82% TF: 5 out of 13 Feeling 38% JP: 3 out of 18 Perceiving 16% Your Jungian Personality type is INTJ And here's what I got today: Keirsey Temperament Test Results EI: 10 out of 10 Introvert 100% SN: 14 out of 18 iNtuition 77% TF: 9 out of 20 Feeling 45% JP: 6 out of 19 Perceiving 31% Your Jungian Personality type is INTJ"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Ann", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (17:56)", "body": "I'm split between ISTJ and INTJ, but the description of INTJ fits me very well."}, {"response": 35, "author": "summit", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (09:10)", "body": "Good grief, that makes 3 of us INTJ! Any other synchronicity such as being horrifically hardworking (often behind-the-scene but still putting out 150% contrasted to others' 100%) sign like Capricorn or? I thought so..."}, {"response": 36, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (10:20)", "body": "I'm a Capricorn; in fact, I was born on ;-) (Not that astrology means anything...)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (11:33)", "body": "cute tree,and not that liking a certain \"color\" should mean anything either."}, {"response": 38, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (17:18)", "body": "The tests usually tell me I am XXTJ, but I figure the extroverted characteristics are learned behaviors and that the 'sensing' characteristice may be also - part of being older and part of raising a daughter. The INTJ description seems to fit me best. The 'test people' say INTJ's are the most unusual and here we seem to be becoming a majority. Interesting!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (17:40)", "body": "According to the test I'm an ISTJ - but I found I answered a lot of the questions with what I'd prefer rather than what I actually do. Is that cheating? Never tried this before, but I also think some of it may change with age - except for the \"I\" part; I've always been that!!"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:15)", "body": "I'm an INTJ with Cliff Claven tendencies ;-) Perhaps the predominence of INTJ's has something to do with the medium of the internet. Other people are out there in the real world, while we plunk away on our keyboards."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:59)", "body": "ISTJ here. When I took the test yesterday, the statistics showed that ISTJ's were in the majority; more than 13%"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:15)", "body": "Re #'s 39 and 41 Inko and Linda, I join you in ISTJdom. I printed out the descriptions and they sound very like me -- hubby agrees."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:19)", "body": "Sheesh! For a bunch of introverts you all sure are doing a lot of talking! ;-)"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:22)", "body": "Yes, but it's not face-to-face , Cheryl! %-)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "summit", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (07:28)", "body": "Yep, nothing like keyboarding (or in regency era, letterwriting alla Darcy) to preserve one's privacy and still communicate one's myriad intuitions! I was thinking the other day about how draining a job like teaching or seeing lots of patients can be to an INTJ (or similar IXXX)...my dad got around it by being a radiologist (like our keyboarding here, he saw patients via x-rays)...I get around it by teaching from the side or back of the room (I pace a lot too)...Freud was once asked why he/analysts sat back by the head of the patient, out of view; he said he couldn't tolerate all the eye contact daylong otherwise (besides its freeing up the patients t speak their issues aloud, I am sure)"}, {"response": 46, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (09:55)", "body": "Interesting, Wendy.This IXXX, who's really an INFP trying to cope with the real world in a sensible manner,teaches from the back of the room too,sitting down as well.However, I had always assumed it was because I wanted my students to look at the OHP, not me!As for INTJs being so common here, could it not be because they are all closet writers?"}, {"response": 47, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (10:05)", "body": "This thread on teaching is interesting. (I am an XXTJ who belives she is really a INTJ.) I loved teaching and always planned to get back to it. I have been a computer analyst since 1972 where the money is better. I always thought that I liked myself better when I was teaching - that I 'became' a less introverted person. I also have problems with assignments at work that require me to be a half time extrovert and a half time introvert, although I have always believed that I could do either role full time just fine. For example, if I have a lot of telephone work to do, I either ignore it to do my technical work or ignore the technical to do the telephone work. It is hard to juggle the two!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "]Sheesh! For a bunch of introverts you all sure are doing a lot of talking! ;-) As diagnosted E... am not blabing that much, not that I don't want too :) Since bordering E/I, have a funny feeling E came with the standard package and later transformed to an I, custom-maid by life Welcome fellow E/I NFP"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (13:59)", "body": "My \"I\" might have formed that way, too, J."}, {"response": 50, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:40)", "body": "Re:#43 It is interesting that some elements of our personalities are exhibited in our postings. I was thinking about this topic while driving home the other day. I decided that you, Cheryl, and Kali must definitely be ENFPs. Re:#45 ]Yep, nothing like keyboarding... In real life (versus internet life), my closest friends are Exxx's. When with them, I can never get a word in edgewise. Here (although I am not very talkative here either), at least I can speak whenever I want. Linda"}, {"response": 51, "author": "summit", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (20:11)", "body": "Linda- LOL at your last sentence. So true!! The other great one is when an E??J type very decidedly tell an I??? type how to live his/her life! \"Reserved behavior does not imply agreement!\" ;-) (Note: My #45 post use of IXXX really meant I???, any combo of introvert.) As to being a \"closet writer,\" I'm actually out in the open about it :-) (and I probably wouldn't be able to fit in one with this size computer and me) (although, if CF were to be present as well helping me, um, with typing, I'd probably attempt it)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (10:27)", "body": "The other great one is when an E??J type very decidedly tell an I??? type how to live his/her life! \"Reserved behavior does not imply agreement!\" ;-) Wendy, very true! What does that say for Darcy and Lizzie? Maybe there are so many INTJ's here because of Jane Austen then?(Was she ISTJ or INTJ? the latter, I think.)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (13:48)", "body": "As an \"E,\" I must take up for my maligned group! I certainly don't tell the \"I\" types how to live their lives, I merely make well thought out suggestions, which of course intelligent folk must necessarily follow to secure their own happiness! Hrumph! ;-)"}, {"response": 54, "author": "summit", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (19:21)", "body": "How cute! I actually love being around E???s because of their very difference! (I'd better because, of course, my daughter is most emphatically an E??? [ESFJ?] already at age 9!!)"}, {"response": 55, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (19:29)", "body": "My favorite \"E\" (outside the family) is a neighbor who is like a breath of fresh air in my reserved world. No wonder Darcy loved Bingley so much."}, {"response": 56, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (20:04)", "body": "There seem to be darned few Es on this board. So, to balance things, I'll confess to being an ENFJ and will also publicly expose my sister Cheryl and an ENFP. We were beginning to think we were the only ones here."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Becks", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (00:01)", "body": "Guess what Auntie, My. It is all in the family--I am a ENFP!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (00:47)", "body": "Myretta: There seem to be darned few Es on this board. So, to balance things, I'll confess to being an ENFJ and will also publicly expose my sister Cheryl and an ENFP. Oh my! I've been \"outed\"! But I don't suppose that it comes as any great surprise that I'm an ENFP! We are delightful people, if I do say so myself, and being an ENF I certainly would! It's when you add that J to it that the ENF person gets a little pushy! ;-p (*samooch* sister!)"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (03:26)", "body": "If I remember correctly, I am an ENFJ..."}, {"response": 60, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (07:03)", "body": "Kali: If I remember correctly, I am an ENFJ... Well I guess it does run in the family. Here we all are!! (But daughter, doesn't this make you a Lizzie?)"}, {"response": 61, "author": "summit", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (07:29)", "body": "Speaking of other characters/shows and their types, how about HOME IMPROVEMENT? Tim Allen and his wife? Neighbor Wilson Wilson?! Some amusing interaction there..."}, {"response": 62, "author": "jennyh", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (12:55)", "body": "I am INTJ. I am quite suprised how many INTJ are here. Is it possible to become E when one is born I (as Lizzie suggested at Rosing)? jenny"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (13:07)", "body": "I was born *very* \"I\" - I hid behind my mother a lot, and cried for a week when I started first grade. But I definitely got over it, partly because I hated being ignored. Hmmmmm, maybe I was always an E............. Seriously, I don't think that any of the four traits are necessarily fixed. Everyone can vary, depending on their mood or situation."}, {"response": 64, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "I think I might have been made into an \"I\". There was a minor childhood trauma that might have changed me from an \"E\" to an \"I\". I'll never know for sure."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (16:23)", "body": "When this indicator was given at work, the rep from the personnel company explained the M-B in a way that really struck a chord with me, and explains what many of you seem to be working towards. There are 16 possible score combinations, and these scores are like living in a 16 room house, and your score is the room you PREFER. You will, of couse, spend time in very room, depending on how you are feeling that day, and the people you spend the day with. This is the way of acting and reacting that you fin the most comfortable. You may think of another room as a \"power\" room, and prefer to be there when dealing with difficult people, etc. Because I was taking the test at work, I tended to answer the questions with my \"work\" hat on. I was torn on many questions becuase the answer would have been different at work that at home. I would like to take it again with my \"home\" hat on, and see what the differences would be. These would then be the two rooms that I spend most of my day. Has anyone else taken the test from two differing perspectives? I would be interested in the results."}, {"response": 66, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (10:50)", "body": "Thanks, mom...I wish that did make me Lizzy! But you know that I don't really agree about the \"E\" in her chart...;) --- Wendy, you go! What a hilarious hodge-podge of personalities on that show..."}, {"response": 67, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (22:11)", "body": "I'm back finally! My deadline is sort of over. My ISP finally decided to let me in today. (All I got were busy signals yesterday and after about an hour I gave up!) Anyway to more predictions. My next attempt is Lydia. Her personality's been on my mind the last couple of days for heaven knows why. I think she's an ENFP with some J tendencies, and the following are my reasons: (I will attempt a bulleted list. So my apologies, if it doesn't work.) She generally speaks before she thinks. (E) She loves and longs for Balls. (E) An introvert, esp. extreme introverts, would be tend to shy away from such large gatherings. She isn't a stickler for details. (N) She far from being objective about anything. (F) She's doesn't make many judgements. (P) The ones she does make are so that she can justify her view of the world. (i.e. Her comment about Mary King being a \"freckled thing\" because she doesn't like Wickham paying attentions to her.) My main justification of her type comes from an ENFP's profile. ENFPs are \"dynamic, enthusiastic, highly skilled with people, affirming, and gregarious\", which somewhat exemplifies Lydia. With ENFPs, \"The more the merrier\" is the theme. They are also \"rarely complacent in a relationship\", always thinking \"this relationship could be better, if I worked harder\" or \"There's a better relationship, still out there waiting for me\". They see the future as being endless possibilities and tend to ignore the presen , which is quite in character for Lydia. They also see the best in people and can ignore the worst. For example, Wickham \"is a fine horseman\", while she ignores the fact that he was willing to elope with her. I hope that this prediction doesn't offend those of you who are ENFP. To paraphrase someone we are all familiar with, I write as I find. :-) re:65 I have taken MBTI as my own person, and I have taken the Kiersey TS as a work person and I come out as ISTJ in both cases. There is a variation in the degree of each preference, for example, I'm more S, T, and J in my work than at home, but then my job (technical writer) is an ISTJ job. Actually, I found out about MBTI and personality typing when I was looking to change careers in my fourth year at university. I was in a Science program, which was more suited to INTJs than ISTJs, and consequently, I detes ed it. (There were also no jobs in my field, another incentive to change.) The only career that involved writing for an ISTJ personality was tech writing. Consequently, I love what I do, and I am a firm believer in MB personality typing."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (22:38)", "body": "Okay, then- what do Cheryl, Rebecca and Johanne think of Lydia?I have always rather liked her, despite everything. Don't ask me why, I'm no good at thinking........."}, {"response": 69, "author": "Becks", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:36)", "body": "I have always had a soft-spot for her. Yes, she is a silly young girl, but give her a chance to grow. And maybe if she wouldn have been in a different society, so would have been more refined. She reminds me a lot of the way I was in my early teens--I was a real terror."}, {"response": 70, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:52)", "body": "Rebecca: She reminds me a lot of the way I was in my early teens--I was a real terror. I'm so glad that I am just your auntie and not your mother! *samooch* ;-)"}, {"response": 71, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (06:21)", "body": "I adore Lydia in P&P2. I never stopped to think about how young she and Kitty were until I saw P&P2. She seems like so much fun in many of her scenes. And I can see the pressure on her be out in society at too young an age. How can Kitty be out and not Lydia when Lydia dominates Kitty. I am reminded of a family I knew in the early 60's whose 16 year old Lydia was pregnant by her long time 16 year old boy friend. In those days, married and/or pregnant girls had to transfer to a different high school or drop out so their lack of virginity would not contaminate their former classmates. The young couple married. Dad informed the school board that he would take them to court if they interferred with the girl's right to an education. He sat down with the kids and the boy's parents and mapped out a plan for them to continue their educations and become financially competent. The way he created a safety net around the kids instead of punishing them or letting anyone else punish them for the situation has always impressed me."}, {"response": 72, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (20:55)", "body": "a really cool Dad, and a lucky couple, Katy!"}, {"response": 73, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:03)", "body": "That was the sixties - he was really bucking tradition. The school board changed its rules. The 'youngsters' are probably grandparents now."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:46)", "body": "I wonder how long their marriage lasted. Many of my dad's friends who got hitched as teenagers have long since separated...and at least two of the girls I know who married in high school were divorced before graduation..."}, {"response": 75, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (21:55)", "body": "Yikes! but I was wondering the same thing!"}, {"response": 76, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:23)", "body": "last I heard, in the early 90's, they were still together. but whether the marriage lasted or not, her dad was protecting her future and his grandchild's future by making sure they both finished high school and got job training afterwards."}, {"response": 77, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:31)", "body": "Katy -- what a stand up thing for the father to do. It is never easy to buck convention (or the establishment). It was good when school systems (i.e., the public) began to realize that pregnant teenagers need an education, too."}, {"response": 78, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:35)", "body": "Her dad did right, Katy."}, {"response": 79, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Fri, Apr  4, 1997 (20:17)", "body": "I'm going to branch off slightly this time. I just saw Emma T's S&S last Sunday and I just re-read the novel this week, so the next character I have typed is Elinor Dashwood. I believe her to be an ISTJ. Introvert because she is not expressive and actually prefers not to speak to others unless necessary. Sensing because she is the Sense in Sense and Sensibility, not to mention her attention to the real world. Thinking because she is always rationalizing and reasoning things out. Not to mention she tries a ways to be objective in the matters of the heart. Finally, she is Judging because she likes to make decisions ahead of time not to mention she rarely leaves things to the last minute. She is also always doing things that should be done, rather than things that catch her fancy--the embodiment of ISTJ's Next time I'll attempt Charlotte or Mr. Collins."}, {"response": 80, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Apr  4, 1997 (22:36)", "body": "Great, Angela! As a fellow ISTJ, I can relate to your suppositions. Sounds like Elinor to me. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 221, "subject": "Dalton Jane Eyre", "response_count": 79, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Luba", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (12:57)", "body": "Sorry, I`m not really sure what Virtual View means, but here`s my two cents: Jane Eyre is a favourite book with me, so I don`t think I will ever see one adaptation that, while being faithful to the book, has its vibrancy and drama. Even so, I liked the Dalton adaptation. Tim D. was quite a very good Rochester, very moving, full of life, Zelah Clarke was not the definite Jane, but it`s a difficult, I think. She wasn`t \"plain\", but she had a nice soft voice and some sparkle. Her acting seemed somewhat forced at times. Tim chewed a bit on his dialogue sometimes and went too far on the acting, but he was all emotion and THAT I liked. The rest of the characters were played very mechanically and without interest and that\ufffds a shame, cause St John and Helen ,e.g., are great characters."}, {"response": 2, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (13:38)", "body": "I have always had a fondness for this version of Jane Eyre, (IMO)definitely superior to the Orson Welles movie and the recent William Hurt film. Much more faithful to the book. I can't wait to see the Ciarian Hinds version! Zelah Clarke was entrancing as Jane, she looked/sounded the way I had always imagined. And as for Tim Dalton-he was a great, dark, brooding Rochester, maybe not the definitive one(can't wait to see CH), but a compelling one! The scene I remmember most vividly is when Bertha catches the bed on fire and Jane saves Rochester. Tim Dalton/Rochester looked like he wasn't going to let her go! Also, the scene(just after the secret is revealed) when Jane comes out of her room and falls into Rochester's arms. He was waiting for her to come out, wanted her \"tears on his breast...\""}, {"response": 3, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (13:42)", "body": "I remember seeing this adaptation at least 8 years ago. I must say I still like it as well. It could have been a pre-obsessionn to my P&P2 obsession, if I'd had a VCR at the time to tape it. I liked both main characters. Timothy Dalton at times seemed cruel and heartless, but that was really how Rochester was written, playing games with the people he loved. He has a certain quality about him, one that would make many women fall in love I think. I especially liked the scene garden at night where they end up confessing their love. He looks truly like a man in love, wishing to express himself. They could have played up the repartee between them, as there were only a couple of scenes where ou could tell they were becoming friends."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (13:49)", "body": "I also liked Zelah Clarke. She really showed the understated qualities of Jane. She is pretty, but in an understated way. She is so tiny too. I confess I still cried when she hears him calling her name, then goes to fin blind and crippled. Their reconcilliation had me in tears again. His make-up when he was scarred left a lot to be desired (you could still see the eye he lost moving under the partial make-up. But that was probably the quality of the time when it was made). Overall, I would give it two thumbs up. And TD has some very CF qualities. I can't wait for the CH Jane Eyre. I just watched Emma3 yesterday, and rewound to the commercial for JE, just so I could see CH."}, {"response": 5, "author": "brad", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (14:55)", "body": "I also have enjoyed this version for many years. Like Andrea one of my favorite scenes is in the garden when they confess their love. Timothy Dalton Does overact on occasion. I squirm during the scene when Jane tells him she is leaving.The whole production, though is very nice and I think the best Jane Eyre available. What is a virtual viewing? I can't find an expanation anywhere."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (15:51)", "body": "I always like William Hurt since the Big Chill and do like his version of JE. TD version wasn't as good as Orson Welles. For me it is a toss-up between Welles and Hurt.I enjoyed these much more,it must be the way they were filmed and directed that really draws you in.TD version didn't do that for me."}, {"response": 7, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:07)", "body": "What is a virtual viewing? I can't find an expanation anywhere Virtual Viewing is what we're doing here. We view a video virtually together and then discuss it."}, {"response": 8, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:18)", "body": "Jane Eyre is a story which requires more than two hours to be told in anything close to it's original form. The problem with both the Orson Welles version and the more recent Zeffirelli film is that the length necessitates cutting and collapsing large parts of the story. This has always detracted from these films for me. The version being discussed here is long enough to encompass most of the story, including the sojourne with the Rivers which is given short shrift in the other versions. I think it ma es it a much more interesting story and gives an added piquancy to the eventual reunion. As has been mentioned, there is some tendancy to chew the scenery, but it is not a grave fault. The characters of Jane and Rochester and of St. John Rivers and his sisters are well defined and seem quite faithful. Of all the adaptations available, this is my favorite because it is the most faithful to the story and to the characters. I have a favorable recollection of another with George C. Scott and Suzannah York which, I think, also had this in its favor. It is, however, not generally available and it has been a very long time since I have seen it."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Dina", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:23)", "body": "I believe virtual view is when we all watch it together and then disciss it here. I don't need to watch it, I have it memorized. I disagree with Andrea in regards to their repartee (note: the scene where she asks for time off and he gives her part of her salary and when he plays the gypsy). I think they handeled the intitial \"need to be gregarous\" scene well. She is the right combination of shy, intelligent and assertive. I love the scene in the bedroom where he doesn't want her to go. She is rightfully afraid (due to inexperience and laws of propriety), but he confesses an awful lot there. I sometimes find myself talking to the sc een as if I were Jane and I say more agressive things to him, but that just shows I have watched it too much - I cannot, will not change the novel. I had wished that when Jane fell in love she would turn a little pretty. I liked that Zelah was tiny and full of spark and spirit, but I wanted her hair loose of something. I didn't care that Timothy overacted -- I chock it up to passion; which is what made this so wonderful to me. When he says \"what will I do when you are gone\", it kills me. Once of my favor te phrases in all of literature is Jane's speech in the garden. Would it be that we could all think of such wonderful and meaningful phrases at crucial points in our lives: Do you think, because I am poor, obscure, plain, and little, I am souless and heartless? You think wrong! - I have as much soul as you - and full as much heart! And if God had gifted me (\"blessed me\" in the movie) with some beauty , and much wealth, I should have made it as hard for you to leave me, as it is now for me to leave you.....it is my spirit that addresses your spirit; just as if both had passed through the grave, and we stood at God's feet, equal - as we are! To wax that poetically off the cuff: sigh. I miss some of the engagement stuff from the novel. I feel like it shows his desire for Jane and her being in love (and frightened by what's in that room). I am very interested in seeing CH as Rochester as I loved him as Wentworth. Talk about a tease; we have to wait until September. I did not care for the other versions of JE as I felt like I was watching the Cliff Notes. I am hoping the A&E one is long like this one. I am still waiting for my > Edward."}, {"response": 10, "author": "kate", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:38)", "body": "I borrowed this out about two years ago and haven't seen it since, so this might be a bit vague. I really liked it and watched it several times - espeicially the part where she's leaving (sob). I though TD was great in what must be a really difficult part. Rochester is a character that I find really hard to believe in - he's so horrible to Jane almost up until the moment he says he loves her - how could you do that to someone you love? To try and act, believably, as a boor one minute and a romantic h ro the next must be really difficult. TD ran rings around William Hurt who was just completely wrong. And it does need the extra time to make the stuff with the Rivers make sense. Even in this version it was significantly truncated from the book. St John is such a slimy character - those poor Indians. I did think the ending was a bit abrupt. And the makeup for TD was dismal. Looking forward to the next one."}, {"response": 11, "author": "kate", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:40)", "body": "I have got no idea why all my text is in italics. What did I do?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "kate", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (18:41)", "body": "Please ignore 11. Italics have gone."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Sun, Mar  9, 1997 (19:15)", "body": "Dina, I just wish there were more of those scenes, so you could really see the relationship being built. Do you think, because I am poor, obscure, plain, and little, I am souless and heartless? You think wrong! - I have as much soul as you - and full as much heart! And if God had gifted me (\"blessed me\" in the movie) with some beauty , and much wealth, I should have made it as hard for you to leave me, as it is now for me to leave you.....it is my spirit that addresses your spirit; just as if both had passed through the grave, and we stood at God's feet, equal - as we are! This quote had me in tears (OK, I get emotional). It shows how much she feels, and how much she feels she's been oppressed."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (00:21)", "body": "I had not seen this version in 8-10 years, before I ever read Mansfield Park, I think. But the way Jane is played in this adaptation makes me think of Fanny Price -- the not quite a member of the family part, the shyness, fringes of gentility class position. But Jane has more fire, doesn't she? Fanny is kind of a poor man's Jane."}, {"response": 15, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (01:04)", "body": "Gosh Amy, you're playing with fire. The avenging HC may not like that suggestion ;-)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (07:58)", "body": "Kate, somehow, I posted my response to his in Matters of the Heart: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 214 of 221 [austen]: Matters of the heart: Why we read P&P Response 42 of 44: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (05:48) * 2 lines I don't know, Kate. Let's see. He likes Miss Eyre a lot too."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (08:04)", "body": "I have been enjoying Jane Eyre since far before I had ever heard of Jane Austen. Although their styles are very different, I love them both. Check out the following link to HC's Jane Austen page for Charlotte Bronte's unflattering view of Austen, however: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janeart.html#charlottebronte My first exposure to an adaptation of JE was the George C. Scott version in the early 70's, and I still really like his best, although I may have romanticized it somewhat over the years. I thought both Sian Pattenden, the young Jane, and Zelah Clarke, the more mature version, did a good job in this adaptation. I have always been drawn to Jane's spunk, and the fact that she is calm and quiescent until unjustly accused or asked to do something she knows is wrong. Then WATCH OUT! As Rochester puts it, Never has anyone been so frail and yet so indomitable! As the young Jane, I have always loved her comment to Mr. Brocklehurst about not going to hell: \"I must keep in good health and not die!\" No one else has mentioned this, so I'll take the plunge: although I really like TD's performance here (he has the speech and mannerisms down well), the lines dealing with his looks fall flat because he is so good-looking. When he says, You examine me, Miss Eyre. Do you find me handsome? and she answers, No, sir. , it does give one pause. In a later scene, he is saying that he wishes his own \"externals\" more closely matched those of Blanche's, and Jane says it would take magic. At the end when she finds him at Ferndean, he asks if he is hideous, and she says, Yes, sir. You always were, sir. And then he compares himself unfavorably to St. John as ...a black Vulcan. All very disconcerting when you're looking at a very handsome man as these words are spoken! However, he does get Rochester down, IMO. I have always really liked the scene where she must go to her aunt, and he gives her some of her wages: You owe me five, sir. Come back for that, then! and then she says she will advertise for a position, and he says, You shall walk up the pyramids of Egypt! I also love when she comes back, and says to him in her honest way, I am strangely glad to be back again. Wherever you are is my home, my only home. The look on his face is priceless. Rochester does play games with Jane and almost torments her. I think he knows how honest she is, and that she will tell only the truth, so he wants her to confess her feelings before he has to expose his own. In the garden, however, he pushes her to the limit. Her anguish upon finding she may have to take a position in Ireland rends my heart: It is so far away -- from England, from Thornfield -- and from you, sir! ... I see the necessity of departure and it is like looking on the necessity of deat ! I will not quote the rest, as others have already done so, but this is a very powerful scene, played well here. I thought the other characters were well-cast, and I got a kick out of Blanche. Her You should hear Mama on the subject of governesses. reminded me of I am a scourge on puppies. That same air of superiority and intolerance. I thought St. John was as stiff and righteous as I would expect him to be, but the sisters were not quite as I pictured them -- not sure why. I like the fact that this version gets this part of the story in. I have often wondered on the morality of Rochester. What he is doing is very wrong, of course, and disrespectful of Jane in the extreme, but he truly is between a rock and a hard place. I don't believe a person can escape responsibility for their life, but my heart goes out to a man duped into a marriage with a woman who can never be his wife. To have that betrayal come, in part, from his own family would make it even harder to bear. And then, finally, to ...find the goodness you have sought for 20 years. and be unable to grasp that happiness must be cruel indeed. I'd have to say I like this adaptation the best of those available, but for 100% satisfaction, I'll go back to my book!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (08:07)", "body": "I have been enjoying Jane Eyre since far before I had ever heard of Jane Austen. Although their styles are very different, I love them both. Check out the following link to HC's Jane Austen page for Charlotte Bronte's unflattering view of Austen, however: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janeart.html#charlottebronte My first exposure to an adaptation of JE was the George C. Scott version in the early 70's, and I still really like his best, although I may have romanticized it somewhat over the years. I thought both Sian Pattenden, the young Jane, and Zelah Clarke, the more mature version, did a good job in this adaptation. I have always been drawn to Jane's spunk, and the fact that she is calm and quiescent until unjustly accused or asked to do something she knows is wrong. Then WATCH OUT! As Rochester puts it, Never has anyone been so frail and yet so indomitable! As the young Jane, I have always loved her comment to Mr. Brocklehurst about not going to hell: \"I must keep in good health and not die!\" No one else has mentioned this, so I'll take the plunge: although I really like TD's performance here (he has the speech and mannerisms down well), the lines dealing with his looks fall flat because he is so good-looking. When he says, You examine me, Miss Eyre. Do you find me handsome? and she answers, No, sir. , it does give one pause. In a later scene, he is saying that he wishes his own \"externals\" more closely matched those of Blanche's, and Jane says it would take magic. At the end when she finds him at Ferndean, he asks if he is hideous, and she says, Yes, sir. You always were, sir. And then he compares himself unfavorably to St. John as ...a black Vulcan. All very disconcerting when you're looking at a very handsome man as these words are spoken! However, he does get Rochester down, IMO. I have always really liked the scene where she must go to her aunt, and he gives her some of her wages: You owe me five, sir. Come back for that, then! and then she says she will advertise for a position, and he says, You shall walk up the pyramids of Egypt! I also love when she comes back, and says to him in her honest way, I am strangely glad to be back again. Wherever you are is my home, my only home. The look on his face is priceless. Rochester does play games with Jane and almost torments her. I think he knows how honest she is, and that she will tell only the truth, so he wants her to confess her feelings before he has to expose his own. In the garden, however, he pushes her to the limit. Her anguish upon finding she may have to take a position in Ireland rends my heart: It is so far away -- from England, from Thornfield -- and from you, sir! ... I see the necessity of departure and it is like looking on the necessity of deat ! I will not quote the rest, as others have already done so, but this is a very powerful scene, played well here. I thought the other characters were well-cast, and I got a kick out of Blanche. Her You should hear Mama on the subject of governesses. reminded me of I am a scourge on puppies. That same air of superiority and intolerance. I thought St. John was as stiff and righteous as I would expect him to be, but the sisters were not quite as I pictured them -- not sure why. I like the fact that this version gets this part of the story in. I have often wondered on the morality of Rochester. What he is doing is very wrong, of course, and disrespectful of Jane in the extreme, but he truly is between a rock and a hard place. I don't believe a person can escape responsibility for their life, but my heart goes out to a man duped into a marriage with a woman who can never be his wife. To have that betrayal come, in part, from his own family would make it even harder to bear. And then, finally, to ...find the goodness you have sought for 20 years. and be unable to grasp that happiness must be cruel indeed. I'd have to say I like this adaptation the best of those available, but for 100% satisfaction, I'll go back to my book!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (10:13)", "body": "Susan, I mentally shake hands with you for that response. BTW, he does tell her that he was a coward for not appealing to her the proper way , though when he asked her to away to _____ (I am drawing a blank here). She was offended. He was pretty clueless there in regards to her morals, maybe he was still deceiving himself. He mentions the hitch in Jane's character . I think the reason he plays these games is because he is passionate. The only reason he gives for the whole Blanche business was he wanted to arrouse her jelousy . Which was a burning shame . He could have wooed another way, but it wouldn't have been as much fun for us!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (10:26)", "body": "Rochester's morality, now there is a topic. It is hard to be kind to him, thinking with 1990's minds, on his behavior towards Jane. Most women these days wouldn't put up with the kind of treatment he gave out, although I am sure we would find parallels in todays society that are just as dishonest and cruel. Was he a man of desperation? I think so. Desperately in love with his governess, who is mentally his equal, and desperate to hide his hideous past. Is it only natural he would try to give in to his desperation for Jane, a chance at happiness? Human nature, I think goes towards happiness. He is constrained by the laws of society to remain married to his insane wife, a predicament which would mean he would never truly be happy. So he tries to sneak in another marriage, which would have appeared legal. He did promise to tell Jane his secrets after they had been married \"a year and a day\". I think trust would be a big issue. After all, everything important Jane knew about him turned out to be a lie. It was passion that brought her back. I don't know many people who would go through the shame of what she endured to go back to the cause of the shame."}, {"response": 21, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (11:48)", "body": "One of my favourite lines is something like (out of my memory) \" I have been with my aunt, who is dead\" \" a very Janeian reply\""}, {"response": 22, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (11:56)", "body": "He did promise to tell Jane his secrets after they had been married \"a year and a day\". Don't you think that would be a huge red flag? Someone as smart as Jane should have picked up on that. I watched this a month ago after almost a year of not seeing it. I seriously have seen it enough to talk along with them (I've owned the video since '89), but what I picked up on this time was the love. So many lines I won't put them here (Susan already put a few in). But that whole scene where she needs water and in the library and then when she leaves St.John and when she goes to him \"she's all here, her heart too\" His misery so bad that he calls out for her (I can't believe Bronte didn't ave her cut him off and tell him what she heard) ouch! I am so glad there is a place I can place all my sappy-ness on the line and not be judged badly for it. Can you be a feminist and a hopless romantic at the same time?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (12:02)", "body": "Can you be a feminist and a hopless romantic at the same time? Absolutely. Maybe we should have a thread on this?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Mari", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (12:23)", "body": "Susan, thank you for your wonderful response. It mirrors much of my own. And now, a confession; this version of Jane Eyre was my first addiction. I had it bad; multiple viewings, sneaking in at all hours of the night to catch a few favored, savored scenes (the garden one is best); coercing others to view and become addicted with me, etc. You all obviously know the symptoms. How I kicked the habit I cannot say, but I was clean for years before P&P2! I haven't watched it again for this discussion; I'm afraid of an overdose, or one of those horrible reactions from two non-compatable drugs being taken at the same time."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (13:13)", "body": "afraid of an overdose, or one of those horrible reactions from two non-compatable drugs being taken at the same time. LOL Mari...Your comments and all the others have me tearing my hair and .......my hands in despair.I have tried to get my hands on this version, but am beginning to doubt it's being available in Sweden. I would like to see it, being an old admirer of the novel and having seen Welles and Hurt. The former very melodramatic from what i recall( though I've always been fascinated by Ors n) and Hurt not quite answering my picture of Rochester, though that Jane, was rather good."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (16:39)", "body": "I agree with all the above posts re: this version of JE. I finished watching it again last night and really like it. I've always liked Orson Welles as Rochester, but the movie cut out the whole St. John bit so lacked a lot of the book. I might have seen the George C. Scott version - seem to remember something vaguely, but can't really remember anything about it. I like this version - Zelah Clarke makes a very good Jane, and Dalton is good, although, as someone has mentioned, too handsome and too thin. One other unavoidable fault is that his mouth seems to fall naturally into a half smile, even when he isn't smiling, which makes some of the words and looks really incompatible. I thought St. John good--hard, slimy, greedy, and generally a nasty piece of work. I've always considered JE to be a \"feminist\" book--Jane sticks to her guns to maintain what is right even though another path might have been the easier one. She won't give in to Rochester and go away with him, nor will she marry St. John without love. The more I think about it the better I like this Dalton version - they included all the necessary points of the book!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Luba", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (16:40)", "body": "Most of what\ufffds been said mirrored my feelings exactly, so I won`t repeat much of it again, but I wondered if anyone felt anything the day after Rochester`s proposal, when, in the morning, Jane jumps happily into his arms and he holds her so closely. I think then I forgave him for all his strange manipulations of Jane\ufffds feelings. It`s hard to stay angry. Tim Dalton plays it so well. It breaks my heart to see her leave, after all they have been through, but I understand her. I also liked a scene when they kiss and Jane`s hair is covering her face, making them both laugh. It`s so joyous...But there`s always this growing tension in the air, you know that that happiness won\ufffdt last long. It\ufffds quite heart-breaking. I was a bit tough on Zelah Clarke earlier. I remember the first time I saw this version, I loved her. The next few times made me a little less enthusiastic about her acting. I guess I grew more demanding... I love Dalton everytime Tim is actually very Colin Firtiish, like someone said. :-) I don`t know if I`ll get to see Ciaran Hinds, but I get the feeling that he will be the definite Rochester, in all the nuances and depth of the character."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:39)", "body": "Poor Ciaran. He is going to have a lot of expectations to live up to. Anybody know when the new version begins in England? I thought it was any day now."}, {"response": 29, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (18:03)", "body": "Luisa-I loved that scene when she runs into his arms. I agree-you do forgive him for playing with her feelings. He is so tender, ardent. I also liked the way he carried her downstairs, after the wedding debacle. And-yes Poor Ciarian. But, he is a wonderful actor. The more I see his Captain Wentworth, the more I am impressed. I am really looking forward to this new JE. From the promo, it seems to be heavy on passion. On a related note, I am just curious how many people have also seen Timothy Dalton in Wuthering Heights. To my knowledge, he's the only actor to have played both Rochester and Heathcliff. IMO, the 1970 Wuthering Heights is nowhere near as \"pretty\" as the Olivier/Oberon version, or even faithful to the book, but again(just as in JE) Timothy Dalton's performance stays with you. Even with the bad haircut, he captures the wild, untamed, dark, passionate gypsy spirit of Heathcliff. I remember most particularl the scene when Cathy returns a lady and he smears her face with dirt. This is soon followed by a passionate scene in the garden. I thought he was brilliant during Cathy's death scene too. Too bad the actress playing Cathy wasn't up to the challenge."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:24)", "body": "I think part of our addiction to things like this version of Jane Eyre and P&P2 is that we are constantly exposing ourselves to something of the highest quality. Much better than Baywatch or the like."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:28)", "body": "] Gosh Amy, you're playing with fire. The avenging HC may not like that suggestion ;-)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:34)", "body": "I found a coincidental thing in checking out the credits for the various JE adaptations. Jack Pulman ('70 Scott version) wrote a screenplay called \"The Best of Enemies in 1961. Hugh Whitemore ('96 Hurt version) wrote one called \"The Best of Friends\" in 1994."}, {"response": 33, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (22:17)", "body": "Amy -- love the graphic, except that the expression is a little, um, fierce.... Yes Fanny Price and Jane Eyre have some things in common, but it's true that Jane Eyre has a little more fire and spirit than Fanny -- I don't mind anybody pointing it out (unless they mean to imply by it that Fanny is somehow less worthy...)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (22:52)", "body": "Okay, I fixed him up a little. A little more determination and less snarl."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (23:07)", "body": "Nice belly roll just before bed."}, {"response": 36, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (23:30)", "body": "Amy, he does look rather Grinch-y"}, {"response": 37, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (23:31)", "body": ""}, {"response": 38, "author": "Bernie", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (07:12)", "body": "The Ciaran Hinds and Samantha Morton version of \" Jane Eyre \" was shown over here on Sunday. When I get a little free time, I'll post a review ..."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (07:28)", "body": "How long, Bernie? Please don't say 2 hours."}, {"response": 40, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (10:25)", "body": "Well I have had some major computer problems so I was unable to post yesterday. I did not get to see Jane Eyre over the weekend. But I loved it so much that I remember all of it. My favorite scene had to be when Jane finds out about Bertha and she is in her room getting ready to leavy and she walks out of the room and oops she falls right into Rochester's arms. That was taken right from the book and I totally loved it in there too. I thought T. Dalton's portrayal was right on the mark. I did just rec ntly re-see the W. Hurt version and he did nothing for me. Even the girl who played Jane was horrible. Also, in the book one of the most exciting scenes was the one when the old gypsy comes to the house. I was so happy they included it in the TD version, but it was left out of the WH version. I thought it was very important to the whole relationship of JE and ER. I could go on and on but won't."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (11:11)", "body": "one of the most exciting scenes was the one when the old gypsy comes to the house. I was so happy they included it in the TD version Laura, ITA. I have always loved this scene, too."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (12:45)", "body": "LauraMM - Please, please, do go on and on, for what do we live, but to make analysis for our neighbours, and editorialize to them in our turn?"}, {"response": 43, "author": "jajones", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (16:39)", "body": "I'm new to this so bear with me. I have not read every response so I may have missed something -- but I have seen no mention of a version of Jane Eyre that stars Michael Jayston as Rochester and Sinead Cusack as Jane. I have this version on tape so presumably I taped it off the TV some years ago and presumably it is a BBC version. It is one of my personal favorites. Has this one been forgotten?"}, {"response": 44, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:19)", "body": "I absolutely love this version! I first saw it on A7E several years ago. I purchased the video last summer and was pleased to find scenes missing from the A&E version. I have too many favorite scenes to mention all of them, but I love it after the fire when Rochester will not let Jane go. He seems to pull her toward him everytime he tells her she can go. I have watched my tape over and over.I did not know people got addicted to things like this until I found the P&P board. It is nice to know I am in suc good company. I think Timothy Dalton would have made a fine Darcy. However, Linda sees him more as Mr. Knightly. I just like to see him anytime I can. Has anyone seen him in The King's Mistress(Whore)? He wore quite a few wigs in that one."}, {"response": 45, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (17:21)", "body": "Jacque, I have never heard of the version you mentioned. I would love to see it. I have seen the Orson Welles and William Hurt versions, but not the George C. Scott one."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (11:13)", "body": "Never heard of Jayston/Cusack. Was it good? Was it only 2 hours? Watching Cliff notes again."}, {"response": 47, "author": "jajones", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:16)", "body": "Since no one seems to have heard of the Jayston/Cusack version, I am beginning to wonder if I dreamed it. (It does not appear in the movie database either). I will try to dig it out of the \"archives\" in the next couple of days and see if I can get more info from the credits. I don't remember how long it was -- will check that too. I am certain that I taped it from television -- it was not a \"bought\" video."}, {"response": 48, "author": "jajones", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (12:18)", "body": "Since no one seems to have heard of the Jayston/Cusack version, I am beginning to wonder if I dreamed it. (It does not appear in the movie database either). I will try to dig it out of the \"archives\" in the next couple of days and see if I can get more info from the credits. I don't remember how long it was -- will check that too. I am certain that I taped it from television -- it was not a \"bought\" video."}, {"response": 49, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (13:17)", "body": "Picture time :"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "I have to agree with a number of people, its was hard to imagine TD as unattractive, which is why I liked George C Scott. It has been ages, but with this Regency fever, it may be rereleased. I thought TD made much better James Bond than, oh shoot, whathisname? Jane Eyre was my first \"Romantic\" movie/novel in 8th grade maybe. I always skip over the Mrs Reed and Lowood parts, they made me angry and so sad."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (13:54)", "body": "I still skip them. Nice photo Johanne. Bernie!! Where's the review!?!?!?"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (14:18)", "body": "Jacques, your version could lost or not on tape. We've heard of a mystery P&P, too from the 60s that we think might even have been a live broadcast."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Marsha", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "I only saw two versions of JE: Orson Welles and TD one. TD is by far my favorite. I actually saw the TD version in Russia, in Russian translation (it did not lose anything) I remember I was in second grade, and they were showing it on TV, one time in the morning, and one in the evening. I got to see it both times, since our teacher, who was I think a big fan, turned on the TV, if we finished the work on time, which we all did. Then I'd get home, and bliss! I'd watch it again. I remember ome parents thinki g it is not completely appropriate, with all the passion later :-) (it was 1986). I love the book and probably reread it 50 times, and the TD version for me reflect it completely (I read the book before seeing JE). I like the OW version, but Joan Fontaine and Orson Welles are too goodlooking, besides I miss all the wonderful repartee and dialog (or maybe I think too much of TD version). My absolutely favorite scene would have to be a toss-up between after the fire scene, and the scene where Jane leaves Rochester-it's one of the most emotional scenes I have ever seen! When I was younger, I thought she should have stayed, but now I think she did the right thing (besides, there wouldn't be a novel f she didn't) I like the actress who plays Mrs Reed. She apears so hard and stony you want to hit her. And Mr Brocklhurst's face reminds me of witch-trials. And I feel sorry for anyone getting into permanent company with that atctor's St. John. I think Zelah Clark is the perfect Jane \"plain and little\" but you could see why she would attract Rochester. And Dalton is the definite Rochester for me. (Almost tempts me to become a governess!) But I am looking forward to the new version, even though I do't think it will replace the TD version in my heart."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Mari", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:35)", "body": "Johanne - *sigh* Anne - whathisname = Roger Moore"}, {"response": 55, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "or whatshisname could be Pierce Brosnan..."}, {"response": 56, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:06)", "body": "Great pic-Johanne! Thanks."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:30)", "body": "Brosnan, Pierce Brosnan Thanks Kate"}, {"response": 58, "author": "annat", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (14:43)", "body": "I'm new here, and will shortly introduce myself in topic for newcomers. meanwhile I can't wait to join you. About the comparison betweem JE and Fanny Price, I think their main similarity is their INTEGRITY - both hold on to their principles, no matter how humble their position in the world is. To Dina (#22), the reason why Jane didn't tell Rochester that she heard him calling her name is stated in the book: She didnt want to burden him, in his fragile state of mind, with unnatural or ESP experiences (I'm paraphrasing). I have seen only the Hart movie and the Dalton series. I agree that it's unfair to compare a 90 min picture with a 4 hr series, of course the first is at a disadvantage. But, there were few scenes in which the movie was more faithful to the book. The first encounter, when he falls of his horse, in the TD version she stood in the way and startled the horse and really seemed to cause the falldown, as he later jestingly accused her. And the scene was shorter. Whereas in the movie and in the book she sits on bench, watches him pass her and then he slides on ice and falls. Than he asks her to bring the horse to him, she fails and there's the sentence on Muhammed coming to the mountain or vice versa, and then she aids him mount his horse. I like William Hart, I think he showed both his cynnicism and suffering, and wans't so bad. Tim was good also, but sometimes I felt he talked too much, that being so faithful to the book wasnt always for the better. I agree that Clark is tiny, but she is also very feminine, whereas Ginsberg is more boyish, therefore more adapte to the description of Jane as almost a child. I thought her neck would break whenever she looked up at him."}, {"response": 59, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:06)", "body": "Very entertaining analysis, An(n)at(?). I agree with your comparison of Jane and Fanny. Welcome!"}, {"response": 60, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (09:31)", "body": "I beg your pardon, Annat, but are you from Israel? Your name sounds Hebrew, I am israelian, as you can tell by my weird name, and so is Adi. Welcome!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "annat", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (12:23)", "body": "Thanks Susan and Ayelet. My name is Anat, and the reason its spelled with two n's is that I did something wrong when logging in the first time, and Anat wouldn't get through but was taken or occupied, so I had to cheat the computer. Ayelet, I meant to ask you the same question, only I didn't know whether you live in Israel or are from Israeli descent. I live in Yehud and work at the Open University. Where are you from? I meant to enter topic 175 for newcomers and make a proper intro, but couldn't do it. 'm very glad I found the Austen conference and its interesting participants. Its the first time I participate in any chat. Ayelet, do you chat live too? There is the time difference of course. See you all later."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (12:32)", "body": "I am glad you could get in here somewhere, Anat. After I got your mail, I archived the introductions topic and made a new, shorter one. That could solved your problem with the reponse window not coming up. Ayelet is kind of our pet. I've advised her not to go into chat during US evening hours, but hope I have not scared her off from it altogehter. The hours are hard to get used to at first, with our international crowd, but I've finally internalized the times of day for my friends in Australia. What do you do at the Open University?"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Anat", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (02:27)", "body": "Hi Amy, at the OU I am a course editor. This requires some explanation. In the OU students learn by correspondence, this is called distance education, They don't go to lectures but receive the course material at home. So every course has to be prepared - either written, or combined of articles published in an anthology, And figures, maps, pictures, questions and answers are combined in the material, so its pleasant and self instructive. As an editor I receive the manuscript prepared by experts in the sub ect matter, and try to study it as a student. I do deductive, linguistic, stylistic and any other kind of editting I think is needed. Sometimes I rewrite, omit or add material, it depends on my knowledge in the area. I've been doing it for twnety years and its a priviledge to get education on all kinds of subjects and be paid forit! Istarted with disciplines close to what I studied at the university - psychology & education, but moved on to biology, history, communication, political science and other areas. Since what I studied is no longer updated, and I learned other topics unofficially during the years, it can be done. I couldn't edit in mathematics or chemistry, but anything I can comprehend, I can work on. Sometimes its even better not to know too much, then I can point to missing information. There are about twenty editors at t e OU, We are also responsible for publishing - we work with graphic artists, proofreaders etc, - its a teamwork. I never edited anything in literature, since most editors come from the area of literature and language, there a more comptent people than me in that area. I think, Amy, you didnt bargain for such a long answer - I'm such a blabberer."}, {"response": 64, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (07:24)", "body": "Amy: No, you haven't, but I'm so confused with the time zones that I gave it up, I'll try to come to chat when I'll figure out the excat difference though. Anat: I live in Be'er Ya'akov, a SMALL town near Rehovot, Tel-Aviv, Nes Ziona and Rishon-Le-Zion. If you wonder why Amy called me \"Pet\" I'll explain it: I'm 11 and 3/4 years old, I ahave watched P&P2 at least 40 times and I love it, I also try to read the book, in English, bits by bits, sometimes I can't understand a whole paragraph, but mostly it's OK, and I manage, the only other JA I read was NA, I was bored one holiday day and I found it's penguin edition on our JA bookshelf."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (09:37)", "body": "We'll try to find a time zone converter and a good schedule for you, Ayelet. Anat, your job sounds fascinating. Thank you for going into detail. I have a friend at Indiana University who works in publications for the School of Continuing Education and they have just started to move courses onto the web!"}, {"response": 66, "author": "jajones", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "I have been away for several days and will be away for more -- but just to get back to you on the mysterious production of Jane Eyre that I have on tape. I was able to dig it out and read the credits but no time for more than that just now. The production was shown on Masterpiece Theatre and starred Michael Jayston and Sorcha Cusack. It was dramatized by Robin Chapman. It is approximately 3 1/2 hours long and it begins with Jane's departure from Lowood. It summarizes her life before that in a few sen ences. I do not know at this point who produced it, since I didn't always record the credits in an effort to save tape. Will try to find some more info. So --- has anyone else out there seen this version? How does Michael Jayston stack up?"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (23:43)", "body": "Jacque -- I've never even heard of this version. As time permits, please share details!"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (01:43)", "body": "Ladies and gentleman before I begin my review I must defend myself (think Darcy saying \"Forgive me, forgive me\" to Col. Fitzwilliam in P&P2). I enjoyed this adaptation though I have not read the book. Unfortunately I had a big chip on my shoulder regarding this film. After reading Persuasion, P&P and S&S, I read Bronte's criticism of JA; I never forgave the woman. CB should have been able to enjoy someone else's view of romance and passion. Thus when I was watching this I kept comparing these charact rs to JA characters and it just doesn't work. CB and JA are like apples and oranges. CB is like Marinanne Dashwood with ghosts and dreams. (Please forgive me CB fans I am not trying to offend.) Perhaps if I get around to reading the novel, things will become clearer but from what I remember of the little Bronte I did read, she and I didn't click. I'm glad Susan mentioned how ridiculous it was whenever someone referred to Mr. Rochester's looks; I kept thinking in what world would this man not be good looking. I can understand his love for Jane but the deception didn't sit well with me. People do so many bad things in the name of love. And then all the suffering. Isn't life difficult enough without having a tormented love relationship? It's almost as if love isn't love without suffering. On the positive sided, I really enjoyed Jane's character. I was so happy when she leaped on that brat of a cousin who hit her. She stuck with her principles and wouldn't marry someone she didn't love. Wasn't the character who played Mrs. Reed the same woman who played Mrs. Musgrove in Persuasion2?"}, {"response": 69, "author": "kate", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (07:45)", "body": "]love isn't love without suffering. At the point where Charlotte wrote this, that was pretty much her personal experience. Her mother and two of her sisters had died, and the man she had been in love with (the professor in Brussels) was married. So it's understandable that for her love is closely related to suffering."}, {"response": 70, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (22:38)", "body": "I must defend CB! CB wrote the way she thought to be right, with a lot of feelings, that's how life was for her, now try to imagine yourself in her place: You hear there's a very popular novelist, called JA, you read one or two of her books and discover, that there is no deep feelings in it (In CB's meaning), and everybody are polite and \"proper\" ladies and gentlemen, it seems wrong, totally wrong! Life isn't so, nobody can be nice and polite all the time, there are poor in this world, sisters here fight! So why does that JA have hide it? The world won't stop being so, and the books would only be drier, who can read a book where nobody in madly in love or d eply in depair? Nobody, it's not a book, it's a sermon! Shall I go on, or have you caught it?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (23:52)", "body": "...from what I remember of the little Bronte I did read, she and I didn't click. I hope you try again, Karen -- I really love this book, and I love JA as well, even if they are not alike. Try to forgive CB and enjoy her very different style."}, {"response": 72, "author": "sandysearing", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (08:51)", "body": "Hi everbody - I'm new here, and so glad I found you. I'm absolutely, hopelessly addicted to JE and P&P2. I watch each at least once a week. I used to think I was beyond hope, but now having read all 71 messages am feeling much better about myself. So many of you said it so wonderfully that there's not much for me to add. TD is Rochester for me, but I'm also looking foward to the new version. One of my favorite scenes is one on the stairs, after Jane leaves the gathering. The way they look at each other, nd leave so much unsaid, gives great promise for what's to come."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (12:55)", "body": "Glad you did find us, Sandy."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Karen", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (00:03)", "body": "Kate and Susan thanks for the information on CB and the encouragement to try her again. Can't make any promises now with the current workload. Ayelet, I understand CB had an opinion which differed from JA but I still find her comments rude. Reading exposes us to the lives of other people and not everyone has the same life experiences as we do. Austen didn't show perfect families (the Elliots were quite a piece of work) and showed heartbreak (Marianne Dashwood). If you can't agree or don't click with omeone style of writing, don't read the author. I mean I could list reasons why I find fault with CB and then attack her personally and then pretend to justify it all in the name of my free speech and passion. However, I believe I would be being petty and insulting others here on this BB whom I respect. You can disagree and be polite."}, {"response": 75, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (08:57)", "body": "Karen: You can disagree and be polite Hear, hear Karen! That's what I love about this place......and I might even try to reread CB as well; my first experiences were less than pleasant, but it may have been due to circumstances (a dunderhead of a prof) rather than content."}, {"response": 76, "author": "Dina", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (12:03)", "body": "I think your comment was insightful for someone who is 11 3/4 years old, Ayelet! Have you read some Bronte? I think I was just finishing up the Little House books when I was your age. I doubt you have them there, but maybe."}, {"response": 77, "author": "Donna", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (18:21)", "body": "I am finding that getting to know an author first (some background on what their was like) will tell you what to expect from their novels."}, {"response": 78, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (04:46)", "body": "Dina, I read Jane Eyre (In Hebrew, though) and the first three Little House books. Karen, just one word before we close this disagreement: I understand how you feel about CB and JA, but think, each has her way of showing dislike to some kind of books, so it was CB's rude remarks, but it was just as well JA's NA, which was not much more forgiving. So you see, CB burns with hate to JA, that's her way, to burn from every feeling, JA's way is more delicate and agreeable, to write a satir."}, {"response": 79, "author": "Beaver", "date": "Wed, May 21, 1997 (15:56)", "body": "I should like to return to the topic of Mr. Rochester's morality in deceiving Jane Eyre and I wish to expand it. There are three primary males in Jane Eyre's life - perhaps more in the story, but I confess I have only seen the recent (dreadful) version and the BBC/Timothy Dalton version. These are Brocklehurst, St. John, and Mr. Rochester. Only the latter is shown to us in a favorable light. While his deception is still implicitly condemned, it is condemned compassionately, lovingly. Wrong it is, and it carries with it pain and suffering and Jane cannot participate in it. Her integrity will not permit it. Indeed, it is in his sinful deception of her that Jane begins to realize the depths of her love for him. In open confrontation of one's own failures, one can begin to be truly trusted. On the other hand, it is the very righteousness of St. John and Brocklehurst which are their primary faults. Brocklehurst's righteousness is shown to be hypocritical, based on an ability to display a presumed superiority to others. He finds it necessary always to point out other's failures as publicly as possible while denying he himself has any failures, both to the public and to himself. He may have begun believing it necessary if he were to properly represent a perfect God but has come to believe he is in fact as perfect as God. St. John's is a righteousness of mission, of purpose, but his mission is so all-consuming that it becomes synonymous with himself. And so his desire for the inheritance, then his desire for Jane later are not really a desire to give of himself - either to \"heathens\" or to Jane but a selfish insistence that all serve him and his \"God-ordained\" purpose. Nothing chilled me more in the movie than when he tells Jane that turning down his proposal is not merely a rejection of him, but a rejection of God. T e worst tyrants are those who believe firmly that God agrees with them. Compared to such righteousness, Mr. Rochester's open unrighteousness is indeed welcome honesty. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 223, "subject": "Darcy in DC", "response_count": 38, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (09:25)", "body": "Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 56 of 70: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:11) * 1 lines Over at Pemberley we have been talking about a possible \"Darcy in DC\" get together. Anyone interested can email me. Anytime this summer would be great for me. Please say when it is a good time to for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 57 of 70: kathleen (elder) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:15) * 1 lines Count me in for DC. I live about 140 miles west (western Maryland panhandle). End of June or first few weeks in July; mid to late August; other weekends may be OK as well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 58 of 70: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:19) * 1 lines August would be after your visit to England, would it not? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 59 of 70: kathleen (elder) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (17:47) * 4 lines August would be after your visit to England, would it not? Yes. The Austen course goes from July 27 through August 2. I plan a adding a couple of days before or after to stay in London (museums, theatre, whatever). But, I could do a weekend even after school starts in September. I have friends in DC who don't mind my dropping by from time to time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 60 of 70: Inko (Inko) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:48) * 3 lines Carolyn, count me in! I live 2 miles of good (crowded) road from D.C. August, however, is no good for me. I'll be gone from approximately July 18 till September 6, all in England except for last two weeks cruising in the Med. Can we make it late June? Or what about watching the fireworks in D.C. on July 4? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 61 of 70: Amy (Amy) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (19:50) * 1 lines If the Beach Boys will be there I might come. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 62 of 70: Inko (Inko) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (20:17) * 1 lines Sorry, Amy, the Beach Boys haven't been here since the Reagan days, when they booted them out in favor of (would you believe) Wayne Newton!!!! Ugh!! They said there was a need for \"family\" entertainment!! The crowds at the Washington Monument were considerably lighter that year! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 63 of 70: Inko (Inko) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (20:20) * 1 lines There's always a good concert on the Capitol lawn - lovely atmosphere - get there early and bring picnics, then the National Symphony from 8 p.m. usually finishing with the 1812 overture and Stars and Stripes. Much like the Boston Pops concerts! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 64 of 70: Kate (kate) * Mon, Mar 10, 1997 (21:00) * 1 lines If I'm on this coast, I'll be there. Earlier would be better than later, but I'm unpredictable, so don't take me into account in the calculations. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 65 of 70: Carolyn Esau (Carolyn) * Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (07:03) * 5 lines Would June 21st or June 28th be OK? Perhaps we could have tea at the Willard? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 66 of 70: Amy (Amy) * Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (07:09) * 1 lines Ooh. I love old hotels. So many ghosts. Is the Willard the one where Gen Grant registered and they tried to stick the scruffy old guy in the attic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 67 of 70: kathleen (elder) * Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (13:09) * 1 lines June 28 would be better for me, but the 21st might also be OK. The Willard would be ever so very nice! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 68 of 70: Inko (Inko) * Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (16:41) * 1 lines Either June 21 or 28 are fine by me - and yes, the Willard is beautiful, especially since they've redone it. Do you want me to check whether they serve tea? I would think they do, but I'm not sure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 69 of 70: Kali Pappas (Kali) * Tue, Mar 11, 1997 (18:29) * 1 lines I was about to say that the room in the photo looked a lot like the lobby of t"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (10:07)", "body": "Count me in girls.....Just let me know when....if you still are needing votes on when though....July or August...(June is still horseshow season)"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (11:02)", "body": "We are going to have a P&P L.A. confab -- both Anna and Joan will be in L.A. on 3/21 for separate conferences, so we're all going to meet!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (11:11)", "body": "Would July 12(Sat) or 13(Sun) be OK for everyone?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (11:12)", "body": "Amy2 That sounds great--have fun!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (14:57)", "body": "Carolyn -- DC in mid July is fine by me (either the 12th or the 13th). June 21 is also OK."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:36)", "body": "Carolyn, either July 12/13, June 21/22 or June 28/29 - whatever you decide - are all fine by me. I posted to the Austen in Boston topic earlier -- I called the Willard and they do have afternoon teas on Saturdays and Sundays, so that's all right. I told them I needed the information for June - a bit early to make reservations!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (18:30)", "body": "Straggling messages posted in the Austen in Boston topic: Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 71 of 73: Inko (Inko) * Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (16:17) * 1 lines Yes, the Willard does serve afternoon tea on Saturdays and Sundays, so that's fine. Either day is fine with me - heavens knows what will be on the calendar by then, but I never make plans that far in advance (except travel plans)so for the moment it's blank! Whatever suits everybody better! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Topic 117 of 223 [austen]: Austen in Boston Response 73 of 73: LaDemoiselle (LaDemoiselle) * Wed, Mar 12, 1997 (17:17) * 1 lines Darcy in DC sounds lovely, Carolyn. Any day is fine."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (12:03)", "body": "OK, Sunday July 13 at 3pm at the Willard it is."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (18:16)", "body": "That's my dad's birthday...and Harrison Ford's, too!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (20:14)", "body": "Darcy and Wookie in D.C.??? July 13, at 3 p.m. is great - want me to make reservations nearer the time? Will just have to know approx. how many?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "maud", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "I only just discovered this topic (thought Boston was still being discussed). I'll be in Ireland for 3 weeks in June, so am delighted you now seem to settling on July. I could do any weekend *after* June 28. I can be at The Willard in about 65 minutes from my house in Baltimore County."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (09:38)", "body": "Carolyn......July 12 is great....count me in!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:17)", "body": "]July 13, at 3 p.m. is great - want me to make reservations nearer the time? Will just have to know approx. how many? Inko, if it is not inconvenient, please make the reservation. Linda, it is on July 13, can you still make it? RSVP'd so Far: Myself, inko, Kathleen, LaDemoiselle, Maud and Linda. Any one else want to come?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:55)", "body": "July 12 is Ian's birthday."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (15:20)", "body": "We will have to sing happy birtday to Ian, Kali's dad and Harrison Ford."}, {"response": 17, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:38)", "body": "I am a very vague possibility at this point, so maybe don't count me, but keep me appraised of developments. ;-)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (08:50)", "body": "For Valerie and anyone else who might need it [img src=\" http://www.interconti.com/interconti/maps/waswil.gif\" ] and this is the Willard [img src=\" http://www.interconti.com/interconti/pics/waswila.jpg\" ] The Willard does have parking. However the best bet is to park at one of the metro stations and take the metro into the city. (This is what I always do!)"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (08:54)", "body": "Let me try again. For Valerie and anyone else who might need it and this is the Willard"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (08:59)", "body": "RSVP Update: Myself, inko, Kathleen, LaDemoiselle, Maud, Linda and Valerie. Possibilities: Kate, Myretta, Arnessa, and some friends of Valerie (Keeping my fingers crossed that you can all make it)."}, {"response": 21, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (14:41)", "body": "Carolyn -- muchas dankes for coordinating this. I am looking forward to it."}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (11:20)", "body": "Wow! That's quite a list! I just had the privilege of meeting with Anna Price from Australia, who's in L.A. for a conference. We're going to take the Amy 2 Shuttle on Saturday to go meet Joan, also visiting my fair city. So we are staging a minip P&P convention in the City of Angels as well!!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (09:36)", "body": "I am going to be gone until April 2, so if you want to meet in DC and email to say so, do not think that I am ignoring you, I am just on vacation."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (09:39)", "body": "If anyone else can make it to DC, please just add your name in this topic. I am going on vacation until April 2 so I won't be able to respond to email."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (09:42)", "body": "I tried to stop post 23 but apparently was unsuccessful :-("}, {"response": 26, "author": "kjones", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "If i'm not working the weekend of July 13, I'll do my best to be at the Willard for High Tea! I'm in Gettysburg, PA - so the trip is definately feasible. The Metro runs on Sundays, doesn't it?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "I think it runs everyday, Kat!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (14:39)", "body": "Carolyn....the Willard looks beautiful...thanks so much for taking this on. I told my family we have a change in plans for our vacation this year....so we are going to make it a family trip....of course, they will find something else to do on July 13th!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (16:00)", "body": "There are lots and lots of museums for the family, Linda, and some take more than a day - especially Air and Space, American History, and the Holocaust. Should be plenty for the family to do!!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Sat, Mar 29, 1997 (21:56)", "body": "Great Inko! I am looking forward to meeting to y'all! We have been wanting to get to DC ever since we moved to Georgia! This is a great reason to finally go!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "ValGal17", "date": "Sun, Mar 30, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "Thanks so much Carolyn. I'll be able to make it. I am so excited. Happy Spring! I am looking to meeting you all."}, {"response": 32, "author": "LaDemoiselle", "date": "Tue, Apr 15, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "I live in DC and I have an idea where the Willard (near 14th St?)is, but what metro station is it near? I have no clue. 3pm, 13th of July, Sunday...right?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "LaDemoiselle", "date": "Tue, Apr 15, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "There is something I have to add in the form of an indiscreet question...How much will tea at the Willard cost? Just talking with my mother today about it, she told me that a cup of tea might cost an arm and a leg ;-) Seriously, if there is a threat that tea at the Willard will be very expensive, I may not...sorry to say this...be able to go. (Unfortunately being an unemployed artist still, mummy may not give me the tea money ;-("}, {"response": 34, "author": "christa", "date": "Tue, Apr 29, 1997 (22:03)", "body": "I am interested in high tea, so count me in. This is my first posting hope no one minds me coming along. I live in baltimore and dcnot to far. Please e-mail me with particulars. kiki@zeroup.com"}, {"response": 35, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Apr 30, 1997 (17:12)", "body": "Welcome kiki!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Mon, May  5, 1997 (08:57)", "body": "I am interested in high tea, so count me in. This is my first posting hope no one minds me coming along. I live in baltimore and dcnot to far. Please e-mail me with particulars. kiki@zeroup.com Kiki, I have tried to email you at christa@roadkill.zero-up.com and at kiki@zeroup.com, but both messages came back as undeliverable :-( Please email me (cre8s@virginia.edu), to let me know if you have received this message. Now to the particulars: You are most welcome to our get together in DC. It will be at 3pm, July 13, at the Willard hotel. Tea cost $14.50 per person and parking at the Willard is available (but expensive $8 for 1-2 hours, $12 2-4 hours. Parking used to be free at the Metro stations on Sunday, but I don't know if it still is.). There is a subway stop at 14th and F streets, two blocks away from the Willard. Please email me, I really wish to hear from you! or visit me in the chat room this evening between 4:30 and 6:30. Here is the address: http://206.31.80.55/cgibin/pemberley/nph-chat.cgi"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Tue, May  6, 1997 (15:43)", "body": "Kiki, You can also find out more about our get together at the following sites: The Republic of Pemberley: http://www2.shore.net/~mrobens/ Or Austen Meetings for the Republic http://www2.shore.net/~mrobens/pemb/admin/meetings/index.html"}, {"response": 38, "author": "christa", "date": "Thu, May 15, 1997 (18:41)", "body": "Thanks for all the info austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 224, "subject": "Austen potpourri", "response_count": 42, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (11:49)", "body": "Amy suggested I put some of collected Austen referential items in a separate topic. So for completeness, I'll start by placing here, what I posted to the wrong topic. (\"Pardon the interference, it was kindly meant\"). Pride and Prejudice 'Marry well', is Bennet tenet: Bingley singly must remain Since classy Darcy (Lizzy-dizzy) thinks he's far too good for Jane. Rummy mummy, jaunty aunty, these would drag both gallants down - Plus the younger siblings' dribblings over officers in town. See the specious Wicham trick'em with his tales of birthright gloom, See how hideous Lydia's ruin looms before she gets her groom; Glassy Darcy saves the bacon, shaken out of former pride: Is he Lizzy's destined love, to shove her prejudice aside? Has she clout to flout that matron, patroness of priestly coz (He whose ludicrous proposing Rosings rules - like all he does)? Darcy oughter court her daughter, destined his through two decades ... 'Mulish, foolish girl, remember Pemberley's polluted shades!' Dare she share his great estate, or can't Aunt Catherine be defied? Yes! and ere the bells ring jingly, Bingley too shall claim his bride. by Mary Holtby"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (11:50)", "body": "And here's the one about Emma (more to appear later as I get the required typing energy...) Emma Miss Bates has a visitor: 'My dear Mrs Cole, how very kind - yes, quite well, I thank you - do pray take a seat. We have such news! Have you heard - No? Well, I think it is all a secret, so perhaps I should not say but no one had any idea - except Jane and Mr Churchill, of course, and all the time we thought he was only calling about my mother's spectacles. Dear Jane is much better already - we are so thankful. Do oblige us by taking some refreshment - one of Mr Knightley's baked apples - some cake? Miss Woodhouse called yesterd y and was so good as to taste a small slice and pronounce it delicious - such kindness. She is now out with Jane - she takes the news extremely well, considering - no sign of disappointment - Box Hill, yes, delightful - but I am afraid my silly chatter sometimes - however, Mr Churchill did seem so very attentive - but then we are all so fond of the excellent Miss Woodhouse - but to think all this time - one can hardly credit - it was poor Mrs Churchill dying, you know, that let it all out. We have surpris s indeed in Highbury, do we not, Mrs Cole? First, Mr Elton suddenly brings back a bride - charming - but some thought he showed a marked preference for Miss Smith, some thought for another - I never notice such things - and now on top of Jane being engaged to Mr Churhill we hear Miss Smith is to marry the good Mr Martin of Abbey Mill Farm - oh, must you be going? So sorry you will not take a baked apple, one of Mr Knightley's - he will be marrying next, I should not be surprised - so much talk of marrying going on - and there's our dear Miss Woodhouse - what could be more suitable?' by Joyce Johnson from: 'How to Become Ridiculously Well-Read in One Evening' compiled by E. O. Parrott Viking, Penguiun Books, 1985"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (12:48)", "body": "\"Quark! Quark! Beware the quantum duck!\" After reviewing my collection of fine one-liners that I have gleened from the Internet, I was struck with the applicability of so many of them to P&P. To wit, here is part one: Mrs Bennet doesn't really know the meaning of 'gentlemanly behavoir': \"Gentleman: Knows how to play the bagpipes, but doesn't.\" Neither does Lady C know what it is to be a true proficient: \"A virtuoso is a musician with real high morals.\" And Mrs Bennet knows how to Mr Collins overstaying his welcome: \"Hospitality: Making your guests feel at home, even though you wish they were.\" On the other hand, Charlotte benefits from Lizzy's friendship: \"Friends: People who know you well, but like you anyway.\" Groucho had the right take on Darcy's first attending the Meryton Assembly: \"I have had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it.\" And after her first encounter with Darcy, Lizzy concurs with Shakespeare: \"I do desire we may be better strangers\" Although Jane is reputed to be more beautiful than Lizzy, I'd would rate her to possess at least 1,500 millihelens: \"Millihelen - the amount of beauty required to launch one ship\" As for the failure of the Bennet parents to wiggle out of the entail: \"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to conceive.\" One constantly wonders just what exactly did Mr B see in Mrs B: \"If you are horny, it's lust, but if your partner's horny, it's affection.\" Perhaps Mr B's feelings toward Mrs B can best be summed: \"I will always love the false image I had of you\" Mr Bennet secretly wishes: \"If only I could be respected without having to be respectable.\" Mr Bennet's attitude seems to be: \"I am not cynical, just experienced.\" In reflecting upon her father, Lizzy observes that: \"Perhaps your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.\" Mr Collins has never learned that: \"Anyone who makes an absolute statement is a fool.\" Mr Collins knows that his proposals will not fail begin acceptable: \"Confidence: The feeling you have before you understand the situation.\" It's not only that Mr Collins is dense: \"Some people would not recognize subtlety if it hit them on the head.\" Bingley envies Darcy's library: \"A Renaissance man diffuses to refine himself\" As for the verbal duelling between Darcy and Lizzy: \"I think sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.\" Just when it appears that Bingley will pop for Jane: \"Nothing recedes like success\" And although Bingley and Jane seem meant for each other: \"Predestination was doomed from the start.\" Miss Bingley has hopes for her brother: \"Absence makes the heart grow fonder... for someone else.\" Mr Hurst is countinually freely he is under the influence of: \"Heineken Uncertainty Principle: Never sure how many beers you had last night.\" - and he suffers from: \"Hangover: The wrath of grapes.\" - and he is in complete agreement with Dean Martin: \"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.\""}, {"response": 4, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "And for better measure, here is part the twain: Poor Mr Collins can't seem to make up his mind about whom to marry: \"I used to think I was indecisive, but now I am not so sure.\" Mr Collins has such a way with subtle flattery: \"I often quote myself; it adds spice to my conversation.\" And Mr Collins is so given to verbal flair in his letters: \"Eloquence is logic on fire.\" But Mr. C is so thick Lizzy's sarcastic remarks go right over his head: \"He who laughs last didn't get the joke.\" As Charlotte discovered on her wedding night at Lucas Lodge: \"One good turn usually gets most of the blanket.\" As Mr Wickham knows after running up debts all over town: \"It's not hard to meet expenses; they are everywhere.\" Mr Wickham has designs on the fortunes of many young ladies: \"Don't steal. The government hates competition.\" Contrasting Mrs Bennet with Mr Collins we observe: \"Silly is a state of mind. Stupid is a way of life\" As Mr Collins approaches Darcy at Netherfield, Lizzy is abhorent: \"There is a fine line between courage and foolishness. Too bad it's not a fence.\" The younger Bennets (and parents) at the Netherfield ball exemplify: \"Never offend with style when you can offend with substance\" Mary discovers the perfect defense against potential suitors: \"An effective way to deal with predators is to taste terrible.\" Jane's letters to Caroline go astray, and Lizzy's is almost misdirected too: \"People usually get what's coming to them... unless it was mailed\" After buying a frivilous hat Lydia finds that: \"Matter cannot be created or destroyed; nor can it be returned without a receipt.\" Mrs Bennet is so distracted by Lydia's disappearance she feels that: \"The more things change, the more they stay insane\" When challenging Lizzy's supposed enagement, Lady C discovers: \"There is no substitute for good manners, except, perhaps, fast reflexes.\" After Dary's first proposal, he finds that: \"Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.\" Mr B acknowledges about Lydia's elopement: \"I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem\" Lydia has a practical approach to meeting officers: \"Yield to temptation; it might not pass your way again.\" It's not that Wickham is living on the edge: \"I just need enough to tide me over until I need more\" Upon receiving his new son-in-law Wickham at Longborne, Mr B feels: \"I would like to help you out. Which way did you come in?\" And Lydia finds her Wickham losing affection after they settle down: \"The three stages of sex in marriage: tri-weekly; try-weekly; try-weakly.\" Upon meeting Lady C, Lizzy felt: \"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception\" Upon receiving Darcy's letter, Lizzy finds: \"You have the capacity to learn from mistakes. You will learn a lot today.\" In her confrontation with Lizzy, Lady C discovers she is a: \"Bachelorette: A woman who is footloose and fiancee-free.\" Should Lizzy visit Pemberley and risk meeting Darcy? \"To vacillate or not to vacillate, that is the question... or is it?\" After his spontaneous swim, Dary surely felt: \"I must get out of these wet clothes and into a dry Martini\" After visting the Pemberley, Lizzy begins to fall under Darcy's spell \"While money doesn't buy love, it puts you in a great bargaining position\" After Darcy is properly humbled by Lizzy he feels: \"I may not be the world's greatest lover, but number seven's not bad\" Although Dary has not yet learned to be laughed at, he and Lizzy discover: \"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing.\" And Darcy's philosphy toward women is: \"I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best\" And finally, when it comes to P&P viewing and reading: \"Some is good, more is better, too much is just right.\" Or more simply: \"Too much of a good thing is WONDERFUL. -- Mae West,\" Well that's all for now. Anything else come to mind, fellow conferees?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:14)", "body": "Whew! It'll take me a while to digest all those! Did you write the Laws Of Acquisition as well, Bill?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Dina", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:20)", "body": "There is no way I can be that clever!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "too funny Bill"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:43)", "body": "You are all too smart for me... Very witty."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (13:46)", "body": "ROTFLOL, ROTFLOL, ROTFLOL, ROTFLOL, ROTFLOL, ROTFLOL, ROTFLOL, ROTFLOL"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (14:50)", "body": "Prolonged AGing!!! Very, very amusing!!!!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (17:32)", "body": "ROTFLOL Very clever Bill! All your own??"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "Did I write all the oneliners, Inko? Nay, not one - just pounded out the intros this morning and put it together. Caroline - you mentioned Laws of Acquisition?? Do you feel I acquired something I should not have, perchance? I am all bewilderment!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (19:23)", "body": "Bill -- Charlotte Lucas actually didn't spend her wedding night at Lucas Lodge: ``The bride and bridegroom set off for Kent from the church door.'' -- Chapter 26 Also, I'm sorry to hear that you find Lizzy \"abhorrent\""}, {"response": 14, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (19:35)", "body": "Re: Lucas Lodge, guess I took a turn for the verse (artistic license!). I was relying on my quicksand-like memory: easy to get info in; extremely difficult to get info out. Thanks for the correction. As for finding the possessor of 1,500 millihelens of beauty abhorrent: impossible. But for me spelling (and finding the correct word) is a \"lossed art\". Have you ever noticed how much more effective proofreading is after publication? I seem to have a proclivity to drop at least a few words while typing (guess I'm too used to having my language compiler find the bugs for me!). Sigh."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Mar 13, 1997 (23:07)", "body": "Very entertaining -- obviously from a much more creative mind than mine!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (09:05)", "body": "Well, here we are back in the low rent district of Austen topics - Cheapside, if you will, where puns and cheap side-splitters may abound. Glad to be of amusement - your comments left me with a sheepish grin; which I have since cloned, BTW. The world's first, without a doubt. As I am utterly unoriginal, I have asked Quarky the quantum duck, my nervous friend for these past 20 postings to speak up whenever I trespass on someone else wit. BTW, I did raise ducks, geese, rabbits, chickens, pigeons, and even an uncloned lamb in my first half life in the outskirts of Gland Rapids, MI - (BTW did you know that radioactive cats have 18 half lives? Quark! But I digress within my digression, a truly perverse recurse.)"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (09:15)", "body": "H-m-m-m. For some reason my Internet Explorer refuses to upload longer messages. To continue my train of thought: As for the one-liners, a happy(?) thought occurred. I have a few left in my bag; perhaps you would like to connect them to a P&P person and/or situation (video or literal). For example, were I to present: \"Hey, someone stole the cork off my lunch\" (Quark! W.C. Fields) you could instantly link it with the all-too obvious Rip Van Hurst. Reaching deep into the back of my hall closet (Fibber McGee fans may AG here - wow, that really dates me, but that's just all well - no one else will, nor should they, for I am a harpily married man! Just kidding, no flames please. Would that make me a post toast-ee!?). Anyway I found the following one liner - not sure who wrote it, but Midler would be my best Bette: \"But enough about me. Let's talk about you. What do you think of me?\" Anyone from P&P jump out at you. (If so ... DUCK - Quark!). Any takers? BTW, if you have any proposals for better use of any of previous one-liners, I would love to hear of it. Thanks."}, {"response": 18, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (10:21)", "body": "Very funny enjoyed a lot :)"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (12:59)", "body": "\"But enough about me. Let's talk about you. What do you think of me?\" Lady Catherine but should would only remain silent for the first two or three words of the answer before telling the person that they thought of her."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:00)", "body": "DTBT first time around. \"But enough about me. Let's talk about you. What do you think of me?\" Lady Catherine but she would only remain silent for the first two or three words of the answer before telling the person that they thought of her."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Mari", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:14)", "body": "Bill - But for me spelling (and finding the correct word) is a \"lossed art\". Have you ever noticed how much more effective proofreading is after publication? I seem to have a proclivity to drop at least a few words while typing (guess I'm too used to having my language compiler find the bugs for me!). Sigh. Bill, that's called 'doing the Bingley thing\" (DTBT); take a peek at the Glossary topic for the definition. We are all proficients at DTBT, I daresay. :-)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:58)", "body": "Radioactive cats? If I send mine to Los Alamos, will they live twice as long?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (14:12)", "body": "Kali, nope, your cats will live as long as always; note 18 half lives = 9 full lives. It is similar with people: two can live as cheaply as one ---- for half as long (Quark!). I agree, Lady C is the outstanding candidate. Here is an another volley, this time from Golda Meir: \"Don't be humble ... you're not that great\""}, {"response": 24, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "\"Don't be humble ... you're not that great\" muttered by Lizzie as she reads Darcy's letter!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (09:30)", "body": "\"Don't be humble...\" Inko, that certainly does capture Lizzy's resentment. I had only considered Mr Collins and his constant fawning pride of connection to Lady C. Here's another for consideration: \"My opinions might have changed, but not the fact that I am right!\""}, {"response": 26, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (12:04)", "body": "\"Lost in the dangling conversation ...\" Persuasion - by Mary Holtby How barren is the baronet Who in production falters, So far as only girls to get! - This fate was poor Sir Walter's. An Elliot of the purest breed, His rank he strongly fancies, But Kellynch Hall he must concede Because of strained finances. His tenant is a naval man And curiously, related To one who'd wooed his daughter, Anne, Which she'd reciprocated. Eight years ago this gentle soul To chuck him was persuaded, By friends and kin, though, on the whole, She could not think as they did. Back in her life (a trifle stiff), He flirts with pert Louisa, Who likes to take the high-jump if His hands are there to seize her. But once too often, tempting fate, This miss just missed her mister, Who carried her inanimate To those who could assist her. She from her fall - and Frederick - Conveniently recovers, And both are commendably quick To gather other lovers. (Sir Walter's heir supports the trend; Of Anne profanely dreaming, He swaps her for her father's friend - An end to mutual scheming.) For Fred at heart's a faithful man And early takes occasion Once more to speak his love to Anne, Who now needs no Persuasion. from: 'How to Become Ridiculously Well-Read in One Evening' compiled by E. O. Parrott, Viking, Penguin Books, 1985"}, {"response": 27, "author": "summit", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (07:41)", "body": "Bill: Are you on speed?? Espresso round the clock? Or simply Spock's replica, buzzing away on UHF beyond our collective grey matter? ;-)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (09:17)", "body": "Wendy, I deserve neither such praise, nor such censure! ;-)"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (09:18)", "body": "Gentle conferees, For the past several months I have been researching P&P in preparation for my forthcoming essay: 'Evaluating the Major Themes of P&P - a Critical Approach to Critical Approaches'. So imbued have I become with all that is P&P that even sleep brought no relief from P&P ruminations. This morning I awoke in a sweat, shocked and grieved by a most startling revelation. The major protagonists are not Lizzy and Darcy after all; they are instead (and I know you will have hard time believing this): Mr. Wickham and r. Collins! I am sure that you are just as surprised, vexed and put out to learn this as I was. If you will do me the honor of reading this, perhaps you will acquit me of the charge of writing in such stupid manner. The true theme of P&P is not, as has been assumed for so many centuries, the unreliability of hate at first sight. No, rather, the subtle theme is this: the absolute necessity for the separation of the Church and Estate. Think about it. The upper class in P&P has made an absolute botch of providing quality spiritual leadership for the fleeced of the species. What was Lady Catherine thinking when she offered the Living to our hero, that most stupid of men, Mr. Collins? This, the man who suggested to Mr. Be net that it was his Christian duty to forget Lydia and never again mention her name, just because she wanted to see a little bit of London with some guy. And the senior Mr. Darcy was obviously a very poor judge of character: to think that Mr. Wickham would be in any way qualified in preparing sermons for a living. True, he could talk a good game, yet he is such a man! This theme was no doubt so revolutionary and shocking for the times that our beloved Ms. Austen had to be very sly with us and bury it amon st the extraneous themes concerning the imposition of good manners upon the proper performance of the mating dance. Happily, truth sees daylight at last. You can imagine the effect of this revelation on my equanimity. How humiliating was such a discovery! I, who prided myself in my discernment! Until that moment I never truly knew myself. But I am determined not to be misled for the second time. I am going to continue my deliberations until I feel, as well as know, that I am right. I am determined to make this thesis of Church-Estate Separation the basis of my first book. There being a great economy of in the distribution of good taste, I know that such a ook will not enjoy a very large readership, but I have hopes that royalties will provide a comfortable income - say about 10 thousand a year (what pin money, what jewels!). I'm thinking about titling the book: 'A Truth Universally Acknowledged - AND WRONG!' Being a computer geek, I am fully aware of my artistic limitations, and, as we all know just how unreliable first impressions can be, perhaps you, my cyber friends, can assist by coming up with a snappier title that will greatly increase its chances of walking out the bookstore. Merci, in advance."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:49)", "body": "Re:#29 LOL! Bill, what a delight you are!! I have no titles to suggest for your book, but I will buy it."}, {"response": 31, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (15:00)", "body": "You truly are one of a kind Bill!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (22:23)", "body": "Very interesting, Bill -- but, do you believe that times have changed? I may not be the best judge here (as I am, I must confess a blatant liberal -- I believe that at the present, you can get shot for admitting such a thing here in Calif.) Think of the \"Moral Majority\" and how they talk of God, Jesus, and Forgivness in one breath and then give huge sums of money to the Republican Party and blast \"Welfare Moms\". We also have the ultra rich conservatives (Rush comes to mind here), filled so much with pa anoid hate while promoting Christianity. Anyway, please forgive me, I certainly didn't mean to shove my own political agenda down anyone's throat here, but you seemed to have hit a nerve :-) -- Anyway, my point being...have times changed?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (09:03)", "body": "What!, Candace, California liberals wish me bodily harm merely for my original interpretation of P&P? (Do I detect a slight tug of my leg?) Such an opinion could hardly be called liberal, indeed, it is quite the opposite! But rest assured, Candace, although I may be teaching you not to believe a word I say, in my libertarian soul I find great enjoyment in occasionally professing opinions which are not my own. It was certainly not my intent to rouse the sleeping dogs of politics and religion; no, let us allow them to slumber undisturbed. ;-)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (10:33)", "body": "Tis true that the Brontes father was a known eccentric. Later characterized by Charlotte, simply misanthropic. There is a very interesting article in this months \"Biography\" about what the Bronte's went through. They wrote about what the \"lived\",but everyone knew this,right.;-)"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:29)", "body": "How should one consider the almost total lack of response to my bold book proposal? I beg your pardon but one knows exactly what to think: farewell pin money and jewels. 'Tis a pity as I was quite prepared to bring to light the influences of JA's pastoral father upon her views on the separation of Church and Estate. But now it is all lost; and once lost it is lost forever. But let us not quarrel about the past. And let us not say goodbye, but as the Basques have it: 'Je parle francais comme une vache Espa jole!' ;-)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:35)", "body": "Yes particularly the Basque :) LOL"}, {"response": 37, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (13:10)", "body": "Bill, Jane Austen already included the topic of separation of church and state in her Plan of a Novel according to Hints from Various Quarters : ``SCENE to be in the Country, Heroine the Daughter of a Clergyman, one who after having lived much in the World had retired from it and settled in a Curacy, with a very small fortune of his own. -- He, the most excellent Man that can be imagined, perfect in Character, Temper, and Manners -- without the smallest drawback or peculiarity to prevent his being the most delightful companion to his Daughter from one year's end to the other. -- Heroine a faultless Character herself, -- perfectly good, with much tenderness and sentiment, and not the least Wit -- very highly accomplished, understanding modern Languages and (generally speaking) everything that the most accomplished young Women learn, but particularly excelling in Music -- her favourite pursuit -- and playing equally well on the PianoForte and Harp -- and singing in the first stile. Her Person quite beautiful -- dark eyes and plump cheeks. -- Book to open with the description of Father and Daughter -- who are to converse in long speeches, elegant Language -- and a tone of high serious sentiment. -- The Father to be induced, at his Daughter's earnest request, to relate to her the past events of his Life. This Narrative will reach through the greatest part of the first volume -- as besides all the circumstances of his attachment to her Mother and their Marriage, it will comprehend his going to sea as Chaplain to a distinguished naval character about the Court, his going afterwards to Court himself, which introduced him to a great variety of Characters and involved him in many interesting situations, concluding with his opinions on the Benefits to result from Tithes being done away , and his having buried his own Mother (Heroine's lamented Grandmother) in consequence of the High Priest of the Parish in which she died refusing to pay her Remains the respect due to them. The Father to be of a very literary turn, an Enthusiast in Literature, nobody's Enemy but his own -- at the same time most zealous in discharge of his Pastoral Duties, the model of an exemplary Parish Priest. -- The heroine's friendship to be sought after by a young woman in the same Neighbourhood, of Talents and Shrewdness, with light eyes and a fair skin, but having a considerable degree of Wit, Heroine shall shrink from the acquaintance. From this outset, the Story will proceed, and contain a striking variety of adventures. Heroine and her Father never above a fortnight together in one place, he being driven from his Curacy by the vile arts of some totally unprincipled and heart-less young Man, desperately in love with the Heroine, and pursuing her with unrelenting passion. -- No sooner settled in one Country of Europe than they are necessitated to quit it and retire to another -- always making new acquaintance, and always obliged to leave them. -- This will of course exhibit a wide variety of Characters -- but there will be no mixture; the scene will be for ever shifting from one Set of People to another -- but All the Good will be unexceptionable in every respect -- and there will be no foibles or weaknesses but with the Wicked, who will be completely depraved and infamous, hardly a resemblance of humanity left in them. -- Early in her career, in the progress of her first removals, Heroine must meet with the Hero -- all perfection of course -- and only prevented from paying his addresses to her by some excess of refinement. -- Wherever she goes, somebody falls in love with her, and she receives repeated offers of Marriage -- which she refers wholly to her Father, exceedingly angry that he should not be first applied to. -- Often carried away by the anti-hero, but rescued either by her Father or by the Hero -- often reduced to support herself and her Father by her Talents and work for her Bread; continually cheated and defrauded of her hire, worn down to a Skeleton, and now and then starved to death. -- At last, hunted out of civilized Society, denied the poor Shelter of the humblest Cottage, they are compelled to retreat into Kamschatka where the poor Father, quite worn down, finding his end approaching, throws himself on the Ground, and after 4 or 5 hours of tender advice and parental Admonition to his miserable Child, expires in a fine burst of Literary Enthusiasm, intermingled with Invectives against holders of Tithes . -- Heroine inconsolable for some time -- but afterwards crawls back towards her former Country -- having at least 20 narrow escapes from falling into the hands of the Anti-hero -- and at last in the very nick of time, turning a corner to avoid him, runs into the arms of the Hero himself, who having just shaken off the scruples which fetter'd him before, was at the very moment setting off in pursuit of her. -- The Tenderest and completest Eclaircissement takes place, and they are happily united. -- Throughout the whole work, "}, {"response": 38, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (16:30)", "body": "Would have responded but didn't know what to say, after all I live in the state that keeps sending Jesse Helms to DC (Ugh)!:-( (I think HC said it best) Religious structures are highly political, arent they?"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (16:35)", "body": "And often, politics become religion to those playing the game..."}, {"response": 40, "author": "candace", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (21:43)", "body": "Answer to Bill #39 -- Kind sir, I believe that you misunderstood my ranting. I would never imply that your position on this subject would be unfavorable here in Calif. or anywhere else. You simply stated an opinion about JA's writings. I was referring to my own \"liberal\" opinions which I believe are no longer tolerated in my state."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (08:40)", "body": "Thank you, the ever more Mysterious H.C., for the valuable contribution of your splendid research. It appears that JA's antipathy for the clergy was even stronger than I suspected. Much obliged."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (08:40)", "body": "Whew, Candace, what a relief! Thanks for clearing away the confusion. Whenever the phrase 'you can get shot' appears in a sentence discussing my opinions, I tend to get a little jumpy (my poor nerves), and usually land on the wrong conclusion. Now I shall be able to visit your fair state this summer with greater peace of mind (I'll be the tall gentleman with the short beard - be sure to wave). My younger sister is eloping with some bounder, but I dare say I shall not have the resources necessary to preven this business. It appears that I have achieved true 'ditty bitty' symmetry: sloppy reading as well as sloppy writing. Presumably the definition of a mild case of dyslexic DTBT would be: itty bitty ditty! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 226, "subject": "P&P in simple English", "response_count": 47, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (13:32)", "body": "Oh my god!!!NO!! I think something like this is a definite travesty to Jane Austen and to literature. Literature is beautiful, more beautiful when most difficult!! Ayelet please take that book and discard it and pray no one else finds it."}, {"response": 2, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (14:34)", "body": "I agree. What makes the book beautiful is the language. Plain English will prevent thinking - all those lovely images will be erased to simply read quickly."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Dina", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (15:36)", "body": "Why would anyone want to read something for just a plot? It would be like reading a comic book. Plots are for telling, books for reading. Literature has simile, metaphors, rhyme, alliteration, personification, onomatopoeia, foreshadowing, suspense, romance, familial love, etc. Why would you want to miss out on reading something that takes your breath away? Would you want to miss those books that you just have to read slow because every other sentence is worth reading over again? What if Melville had just said \"My name is Ishmael\"? What if Grendle was \"just\" a monster? What if Conrad had just said \"it was bad\" rather than \"the horror!! the horror!!? I think you see my point. Yes, Ayelet, burn it!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (16:19)", "body": "Any popularization of any work is better than none at all, if it can bring a spark of interest to a young mind or a not so young mind, the same as the effect of some movie or tv series might do, well Happy thoughts This may well lead to something more, widening interest and learning something new in the process, there is always place for brodening the mind :) A very good initiative used often in school, like P&P2, no?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (16:49)", "body": "My response just disappeared into na, na land, so I'll try to recreate it. ]...for teenages in non-English cuontries like Israel, it's maybe their only chance to meet P&P and JA, and maybe even make them want to read the real version. Ayelet, I think this is a valid point. If one already understands the story, she/he may be better able to appreciate the beauty of the Regency English and JA's exceptional use of it. It could be used as a tool for learning by comparing the two ways of describing an incident. Laura, Lynn, Dina, I understand your abhorrence, but I do feel that such a book can be useful. Please do not burn it, Ayelet!! Linda"}, {"response": 6, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (17:29)", "body": "I think it's a useful tool Ayelet, especially for young scholars in perhaps a country where English may be just one of many languages. Not a good idea just to discard it. Almost all books should be treasured, I think."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (19:57)", "body": "Part of the reason I love P&P is because of the language usage. How can Darcy's comment \"fine eyes\" be anything but! I just think that it gives the whole story character! We see alot of movies about a guy wanting a girl and she doesn't know she likes him until the end....it just isn't the same as Jane Austens usage of the language and having it set in England....it's like comparing Darcy to Pauly Shore, for crying out loud!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (20:24)", "body": "This kind of reminds me of the debate around releasing the Bible with \"popular\" language. There are even some \"urban\" & \"feminist\" versions out there (God is a she, but we all knew that). I don't know. I hate to see fine things dumbed down. What makes P&P so special & immortal is Austen's wit, style, and language. Without these, why bother?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Ann", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (21:42)", "body": "\"I hate to see fine things dumbed down.\" The King James Version might not be any smarter than newer bible translations, it's just the language is generally perceived as more poetic and the older language forms make it sound more sophisticated to our modern ears. Since the King james Version is only a translation, an argument could be made that translating it out of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek is also dumbing it down. If a modern translation can bring more people into religion I have no arguments about it. As for Austen, I'm sort of the same way. Someone who reads an abridged version of P&P has at least gotten some basic exposure to it. Some might then have their interest aroused enough that they will pick up the real thing. Same goes for the movie versions--they have certainly brought more people into Austenland, but are certainly dumbed down from the pure novel."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (21:42)", "body": "Ayelet, sounds to me like you have got hold of an \"easy reader\" version. They are not wonderful, but they do help. I have to admit that when I was about your age, my grandfather gave me a book, very big and very ugly, called \"Famous books in Outline\" which summarised every story you could think of, form \"Gilgamesh\" and Plato's \"Republic\" on through Caesar's \"Gallic Wars\", Bunyan's \"The Pilgrim's Progress\", \"Jane Eyre\" and \"Wuthering Heights\" to \"Tom Sawyer\", \"Mein Kamf\"and \"Das Kapital\". Over a hundred bo ks in all. Most of the writing in it was awful, but it got me interested enough to read the real thing, and kept the idea alive for those books that were beyond my understanding in the original.It was one of the best presents I was ever given!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (22:06)", "body": "which summarised every story you could think of, form \"Gilgamesh\" and Plato's \"Republic\" on through Caesar's \"Gallic Wars\", Bunyan's \"The Pilgrim's Progress\", \"Jane Eyre\" and \"Wuthering Heights\" to \"Tom Sawyer\", \"Mein Kamf\"and \"Das Kapital\". There are \"Wuthering Heights\" and \"The Wind In The Willows\" in this format as well. I wonder if they thought about doing it to \"War And Peace\"? ;-)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (22:11)", "body": "Ayelet, you are so funny. Again, I must ask. Can you really be 11 years old?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (22:44)", "body": "The first version I read of Little Women was a children's version. I loved it (I was 10), later read an 'unabridged' version (in my early teens), and soon after read every Alcott book I could get my hands on. It is not necessarily a bad thing. I do worry that students of works assigned in class will often by-pass reading great novels by reading Classic Comics, Cliff's Notes, and children's versions. What a waste! (Although in the case of anything written by Hawthorne I think it is reas nable!;-) )"}, {"response": 14, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Fri, Mar 14, 1997 (22:58)", "body": "Amy, if you insist upon it, I'm 12 on may."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (09:59)", "body": "I hate to censor anyone's ability to do anything that isn't actually harmful to others, and if it gets people interested in reading great books they wouldn't otherwise ever pick up, then maybe it's a good thing. BUT, I'm wondering if this kind of thing has ever been done with Shakespeare, for instance? Isn't he considered sacrosanct, even though the language he used is so different from ours now? It is precisely because he was so good that we're still performing his plays hundreds of years later, and t e same applies to JA. I also think, as someone mentioned above, that a lot is lost and misinterpreted in the act of translation, and I wouldn't want to miss one minute of any of JA's books."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Linda409", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (10:56)", "body": "Re: #12 Amy, as we would say \"down home\", Ayelet is 11 going on 40!! Delightful! Re:#15 Susan, yes it has been done with Shakespeare. As a matter of fact, I have a copy of Tales from Shakespeare by Charles and Mary Lamb (I may be wrong about the authors' names). I first saw it in the library at my High School. I bought a copy for my nephew when he was in Junior High School. He said that he found it helpful. Unfortunately, it has yet to induce him to read the real Shakespeare. He is in 11th grade and more interested in sports. I still have hopes for the future, though. Ayelet, your name reads beautifully, how is it pronounced?? Linda"}, {"response": 17, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:25)", "body": "Re Shakespeare: Shakespeare does of course get translated into many other languages in MODERN language, which must mean it's easier for the average German or Japanese to understand than it is for us. I think abbreviated versions do have some merit, if only as a way of explaining what you are going to read when you read the real thing. No one could read a Shakespeare play these days without a glossary - there are words that simply don't make sense to us any more. I have no doubt that the day will come when it is impossible to read Austen without a dictionary or glossary. Whatever helps, I say. I do admit, however, that beautiful language is part of the attraction of Austen and Shakespeare. But if you don't know what it means, it's useless. Work out what the story is however you can. And then LUXURIATE in the language."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:26)", "body": "Another intersting translation prejudice occurs in opera. In America, and I believe also in Britain, operas are listened to in their original language and are therefore unintellegeble to most English-speaking listeners. This is not true elsewhere in the world, where they are translated into the local tongue. I think this is due to a bit of an historical snob-factor in opera circles (which I believe is dying out). Old-time opera-snobs seemed to want to distinguish themselves from the rest, and did not want to see opera democratised. With shrinking budgets and the need to fill more seats in the theaters, this is all changing. Opera companies can no longer only cater to the few and must broaden their appeal. It is an interesting transition to watch. (Though I do it from the outside, I'm not an opera fan myself.)"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:51)", "body": "Interesting thought, Ann. Maybe that's why I've never been an opera fan, but I love all Gilbert & Sullivan operettas - partly because they're in English, but mostly because their funny !;-)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (22:59)", "body": "Inko: but I love all Gilbert & Sullivan operettas - partly because they're in English, but mostly because their funny!;-) Yes, I'm a huge G&S fan as well. Even sang Cousin Hebe in HMS Pinafore in college...\"And so are his sisters and his cousins and his aunts!\" (my big line!)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:02)", "body": "Linda: A-ye-let, many people think it's Eyelet, but it isn't."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (13:25)", "body": "I saw a version of P&P in the children's section of the county library, I flipped through it but don't remember the particulars. It was short, but they tried to (I think) keep some of the sentence structure and syntax. I thought it could be a introduction for 8 -11 yr olds. (Excepting exceptional kids like Ayelet.) Am enjoying Annes story, and the piece on Mary."}, {"response": 23, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:48)", "body": "]BUT, I'm wondering if this kind of thing has ever been done with Shakespeare, for instance? Would'nt West Side Story or Wishbone apply if we include other medias other than just books? ]I do admit, however, that beautiful language is part of the attraction of Austen and Shakespeare. But if you don't know what it means, it's useless. Quite true, especially when your tackling a second/third language. Subtlety of the language itself is sometimes lost, imagine one written a few centuries earlier. Once you get the basic plot line, you can work around enjoying the various colors of the language."}, {"response": 24, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (15:26)", "body": "There's a program on Canadian Bravo called Operabox which is 30 minutes long that uses puppets to depict operas like the Barber of Seville, Carmen, or Rigoletto. It's quite funny to hear these marionettes sing in English but it helps us to get the jist of the tales. I personaly prefer hearing an opera in its original language (either French or Italian) because I understand those languages but I must admit that the use of English subtitles makes it more enjoyable for me when it becomes too difficult to com rehend their singing."}, {"response": 25, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (20:16)", "body": "Ann: I'm hardly a Biblical scholar, so I can't argue if the King James Version is \"dumber\" than the original. However, the modern versions I mentioned are conscious simplifications whose goal is basically to appeal to post-literate readers. In my own experience, I've always enjoyed the original version of a work the best (& that includes thoughtful, unabridged translations). For example, Malory's MORTE D'ARTHUR has been translated a million ways, from pseudo-Shakespearean language to really simple kidd e versions. But if you go back to the original in Middle English, you find a beauty & simplicity of language that's really staggering. And not a trace of a \"thee\" or \"thou\"!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (20:09)", "body": "Did I mention that my Malory obsession is even greater than my P&P one? Any other K. Arthur fans out there?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:25)", "body": "Me! Though I must admit I've been neglecting it in favor of other, ummmm, pursuits lately. ;)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:36)", "body": "I've never thought of Arthur in quite the same way since I read \"The Mists of Avalon\"..."}, {"response": 29, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:53)", "body": "Kate: Hope MZB didn't ruin it for you! Whenever I think of an author whose work has lost so much in translation, I think of Malory. Does anyone know why translators had the compulsion to make him sound like Shakespeare? I mean, they didn't do this to Chaucer!!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "Amy2 - I noticed that, too! It seemed to me that the beauty of the story was the simplicity, like old Anglo-Saxon tales or Greek myths. The language mucked it up, and reduced the enjoyment considerably. I really had to make up my mind to ignore the language and pay attention to the story."}, {"response": 31, "author": "jennyh", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (11:49)", "body": "Ayelet, you brought up quite an interesting subject! English not being mother tongue and Korean being so different from English, I am sure I would have not enjoyed reading Classics such as Austen's when I first got here. (Reading A. Christie's mystery novels is a different story, however.) It would help for people like me to read those books in simpler English at first and then in their original form if one wants to. For people who decide not to read an original version, it is their lost. However, I ave a different opinion about Opera. I love Operas not for their story (I must confess), but for their music and for love of human voices as one kind of musical intruments. I have been operas sung both in original language and in simple English version and I prefer (I need stronger word than this) operas with original language!!! Subtitle helps though. Jenny"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (11:50)", "body": "I've never thought of Arthur in quite the same way since I read \"The Mists of Avalon\"... Me too!!!! I have read Malory and a few others. Had my Authurian obsession the summer after high school. A co-worker gave me TMOA to read. Hmmmm."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (13:41)", "body": "English is certainly not as pretty a language as Italian or French. I can easily see that the sound of an opera in English would not be as pleasing as one in Italian."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (13:51)", "body": "There is a great conversation about opera languages in Amadeus. Makes me want to go rent it right now. Think I will. Fave scene though: when Sagliari (sp?) really sees Mozart's genius by doing his scribbling and bibbling for him."}, {"response": 35, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (14:28)", "body": "I must say I did actually _enjoy_ Avalon. I found it really interesting to see the whole story from a female point of view. And I found all the stuff about the pre-Christian religions fascinating.... if farfetched. My mother read it after me and got so into the Arthurian stuff that when they went to England the following year she had to visit Tintagel, etc,etc I read \"The Once and Future King\" when I was in high school and really loved it. But I hardly remember it now."}, {"response": 36, "author": "jennyh", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (17:31)", "body": "This is another one that I need to clarify myself. I did not mean English is not as pretty as Italian or French. Although I do not know all the languages out there, I am pretty sure all are beautiful. When I had a hard time appreciating other languages, it is mostly because I am not familiar with its usual sounds. Lyrics are (to me) like poem or even Austen's novels. When it gets translated, somehow it does not quite retain all its beauty. What do you think, Amy? If I remember correctly, Mozart wanted to write an opera in German (in Amadeus) not in Italian which was the language to use that time. I do like Mozart opera, too. I am not familiar with Gilberts and Sulllivans. I know it is not the same. HOwever I also love many musicals written in English. As a side note, I watched MANY American movies dubbed in Korean when I was younger. I have seen only a few movies both in original English and in Korean dubbing, but I say translation does not quite do the just ce. Perhaps it is a fault of a translator. Jenny"}, {"response": 37, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (17:42)", "body": "Jenny -- I agree about dubbing (non English films into English). The words do not match the lips, and they have to translate to fit the correct amount of time. It must be very difficult. I prefer subtitles, although then it is harder to watch the people."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (07:01)", "body": "Oh yes Amy, you mean when he is taking the Requiem music down on papers and Mozart is dying?? He can't believe such music to just emerge from the mans head...but he can appreciate it...so excited, crying 'yes yes and then...' What say you of the scene where Constanze brings Mozarts sheets of music to Salieri, to beg him to help them. And he suddenly understand that they are originals, almost no changes...and 'Music of such exquisite beauty' simply written down as it is created, I get that spring tingle even when I think of it.. Jenny, I believe \"The Magic Flute=Die Zauberfl\ufffdte\"\" was originally done in German...Der Vogelf\ufffdnger bin ich ja...done for the amusement of ordinary people."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (08:30)", "body": "] And he suddenly understand that they are originals, almost no changes...and 'Music of such exquisite beauty' simply written down as it is created, I get that spring tingle even when I think of it.. __ Yes, first and only drafts. This is confirmed in his letters. I think he must have been channeling -- or something. Such a fine movie."}, {"response": 40, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (11:26)", "body": "I understand that Marion Zimmer Bradley in fact practices wicca, so maybe that's where her knowledge of \"pagan\" religions comes in. As far as poor Malory -- there's this incredible version of the MORTE which is published by the University of California - it's a 2-volume set, and it's a very faithful transcription of his own manuscript. The language is so much better than all that faux-Shakespearian stuff! The non-standard spelling is a little hard to take, but after a while, it kind of grows on you. T is is my favorite translation of the MORTE."}, {"response": 41, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (22:37)", "body": "My opinion on this subject probably will not be too popular, but I think that all classics should be brought down to simple English for easy access esp. for those of us whose first language is not English, but cannot read well enough in our first language to reach the level of classics. Although, P&P was the exception to the rule, I have a tendency to find the classics through comic books, Barron's Notes, Coles Notes, or TV/Movie Adaptations first. That's how I read The Scarlet Letter, Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, and numerous Shakespearean plays. After I've figured out the main plot, I can then go back to enjoy the intricate details of the story. For me this is especially good for classics because I always want to know what the plot is, first. Once I am satisfied that the hero or heroine end up in a reasonable situation, I can go back to the story and read it thoroughly. This weakness is also the reason why I can't get through a Dickens or any long on description novels. I tend to skip long escriptions and somewhere along the way I end up missing some important parts of the plot. Once that happens, I'm usually lost and can't finish it. So in short, I'm all for P&P in simple english."}, {"response": 42, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (11:18)", "body": "Angela, I understand your point, but literature is so much more than plot! When you read a truncated version of any work, classic or no, you're missing out on the author's language, style, insights; in short, everything that makes it literary. I think it's worth the struggle to try to read a work as close to the original as you can. Otherwise, you're not really reading the work."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (03:40)", "body": "I've been following this topic for awhile. When I first read P&P, it was a summerized version introduced into school as an introduction to Literature ( I was then 12 yrs old and in school in Singapore). The essence of the JA's story was there with less details to confuse a young-classic reader. But Mr Darcy still proposed in his \"In vain have I struggled..\" Parts of the book was simply explained to us,the bits that didn't make sense in the normal usage of English. 3 years later , we did the full text, sat for the Cambridge Lit. exam.. and loved it. So maybe it could be a nice thought to start off without the intricacies of the langauge and then work your way up to the entire book. I admire the effort."}, {"response": 44, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (13:32)", "body": "I don't know. It seems to me it would be better to read books on your level initially, then read the classics when you're ready to read them. I have a 4-year-old nephew - I would prefer that he didn't try to tackle say, LES MISERABLES until he's ready, but in the meantime, there are many wonderful books for children he can easily comprehend & enjoy."}, {"response": 45, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:36)", "body": "In my house, Amy we have the reverse situation, my 10-year-old has a high-school reading level, but not the maturity to handle much of his reading level material. We are constantly trying to find things for him that he can reasonably be expected to relate with, and quite often he winds up \"reading down\" in order for me to be certain he doesn't get in over his head. He read some of the Children's Adaptations of classics several years ago, which helped him springboard into the real things - the Treasure I land, Robinson Crusoe, mostly adventure-type things. We tend to read new things together much of the time, helping me to monitor content, too. Once we find an \"acceptable\" author, based on both our requirements, Mark tends to exhaust all their works. Keeps me hopping! Oh, DTBT, I guess my point is that unexpectedly, I found a purpose in these versions of the \"classics\", but I'm pleased that we haven't used them as the end, but rather the means to get to know the real things,."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (18:33)", "body": "\" in these versions of the \"classics\", but I'm pleased that we haven't used them as the end, but rather the means to get to know the real things,. \" Thank you Cindy, my point exactly."}, {"response": 47, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:55)", "body": "Any other K. Arthur fans out there? Guilty! Too bad I hadn't seen your post before lunch today, Amy! Took my touring companions miles out of our way to visit the digs at Cadbury, only to find that it had already been filled in and returned to farmland again. :-( Jenny, I believe \"The Magic Flute=Die Zauberfl\ufffdte\"\" was originally done in German...Der Vogelf\ufffdnger bin ich ja...done for the amusement of ordinary people. Das ist richtig. (sp?) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 227, "subject": "After An Understanding", "response_count": 63, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (10:04)", "body": "I wonder if maybe they did cut some scenes here? If that violently in love warmth did not come out right, and it was to late to retake ? I am among those few(?), who would gladly trade that kiss in the carriage for moments of the long controlled love slowly finding its way, swift touches, devoted glances and a tender first kiss placed on wrist or palm. It is so unfair, when you consider what Gwyneth & Jeremy or Kate & Mark were allowed! (Makes me feel like I want to go to Brighton!! !)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:24)", "body": "I too felt that CF was much too retrained. Good grief, the young lady that has been consuming his passion for months has just accepted him, and he can't gather enought enthusiasm to crack a smile. Other than that, I thought CF's performance to be definitive. As for the clumsy kiss - perhaps they should be excused as it appears they did not take the trouble of practicing."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:26)", "body": "I too felt that CF was much too restrained. Good grief, the young lady that has been his consuming passion for so many months has just accepted him, and he can't gather enough enthusiasm to crack a smile. Other than that, I thought CF's performance to be definitive. As for the clumsy kiss - perhaps they should be excused as it appears they did not take the trouble of practicing."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (15:27)", "body": "DTBT - please forgive the double post - my mail server hiccupped and I was unaware that the first attempt went through."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:09)", "body": "Bill, you have a marvelously funny way with words. Am enjoying your posts very much."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:13)", "body": "Bill, I guess what you and some of the Austen-L ladies see as \"restrained,\" most of us find to be fine subtle acting. I think he has a remarkable ability to raise his eyebrows a quarter of an inch, or just barely begin to roll his eyes -- and convey exactly what must be going on in his head. Me? I saw his relief and pleasure when Lizzy indicated she returned his feelings. I love the little looks. They are what keep the production, romantic as it is, from being, is there such a word? Meloromantic?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:49)", "body": "Very subtle indeed - but to my ears his subsequent conversation seemed a but rushed and contained all the warmth of a recipie recitation. Maybe he was so giddy with relief he was not the warm new Darcy of Permberley. Maybe he should have jumped in a nearby lake first before continuiing the conversation!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:54)", "body": "is there such a word? Meloromantic? If there isn't, Amy, there should be! I too thought his eyes and face expressed what Darcy was feeling--relief, happiness beyond words--and even JA says that Lizzie couldn't see his face while he was telling her what she meant to him which must have meant they kept on walking. On the other hand, I would also have liked the scene to be longer with more of the actual dialogue, plus the second walk, plus the day when Lizzie regained her lively spirit, plus everything that was left out! But we've been through all that before!!;-)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:43)", "body": "\"Good grief, the young lady that has been consuming his passion for months has just accepted him, and he can't gather enought enthusiasm to crack a smile.\" But his eyes!! They were absolutely sparkling! I think it is also useful to remember that they were not really alone, either in the production or in the book. In the book, Bingley and Jane were behind them--and therefore possibly watching the whole thing. (Interestingly, in one of the pics in \"Making Of\" they are also behind Lizzy and Darcy, but in the final cut, they are in front.) In the production, they had just passed a farm hand and Jane and Bingley were not that far ahead."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:55)", "body": "Yes, Ann, the eyes have it; but at such a moment why should Darcy be concerned about keeping a secret from his best friend Bingley? In the book Darcy told him as much (Lizzy could tell by the manner of his greeting that he had received the information - before the parents knew of it); and Lizzy told Jane that very night! What exactly would have been so extraordinary about his smiling with Lizzy? I agree that this second proposal scene was an abridgement too far - especially since so many hours of screen time were devoted to getting eveyone to this point."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:58)", "body": "A major part of Darcy's character is that he is a stickler for social propriety. This doesn't change with his reformation. He is still reserved, and by his nature, he probably always will be. Elizabeth might open him up a little, but once an INTJ, always an INTJ."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:58)", "body": "Bill - I like your way with words! An abridgement too far indeed!!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (21:17)", "body": "\"once an INTJ, always an INTJ\" Gawd, you mean I too am permanently afflicted with this condition! Oh well, it is indeed a great comfort to know that I resemble Darcy in one itty bitty way."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (22:31)", "body": "In the book Darcy told him as much (Lizzy could tell by the manner of his greeting that he had received the information - before the parents knew of it) Bingley greeted Lizzie with warmth betraying his knowledge the day after the engagement. He next asked Mrs. Bennet \"...have you no more lanes hereabouts in which Lizzy may lose her way again today?\""}, {"response": 15, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (10:00)", "body": "Ann2, I agree, I agree!(sorry it took so long for me to get into this topic!)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:34)", "body": "]I am among those few(?), who would gladly trade that kiss in the carriage for moments of the long controlled love slowly finding its way, swift touches, devoted glances and a tender first kiss placed on wrist or palm yes, we miss those. And it should have been included too, Bingley definitively knew about D's intent, and D's attitude in the 2nd proposal rather lukewarm not to say half-hearthed. Quite a change from his reformed-self, or at least far from the enthusiasticly-warm-and-cordial-caring-person we saw earlier ]in one of the pics in \"Making Of\" they are also behind Lizzy and Darcy An in-between-takes shot surely, while returning to refilm it again perhaps? They look like having a good time, not at all in context with the scene they portrayed"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (16:40)", "body": "I'm with you on this one, Shayda. At least in the earlier BBC P&P (P&P1), Darcy at that point took Elizabeth's arm as they walked along and acted relieved and happy. In P&P1 Darcy change for as stiff as he was it was totally out of character for me. I thought it was strange for him to change that much. Also,(in the Davis) at the very end of their walk he did say \"Dearest lovelest Elizabeth\" he looked right at her and she was embarrassed. The end of the A&E Pride and Prejudice showed him more like his early self than his later, open one. Did it seem like this to other viewers? As for Davis version he was compatible to how Darcy felt at the time {not to sure of Lizzie ),( You are to generous to trifle with me,but one word from you will silence me on the subject \"for ever\" *sigh*) he showed Elizabeth as being very serious as Darcy. They both wanted to express theirs feelings for every nasty things they said to each other. Later that evening JA writes that Darcy is not of the dispostion in which happiness over-flows in mirth:rather knew she was happy;than felt herself to be so; fo , besides the \"immediate embarassment\" The actions/word Embarassement is used by JA through all of these scenes. That is what Davis was trying to portray. And it was not until the second walk( in the book) that Bingley knew of their engagement. more like his early self than his later, open one."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (16:44)", "body": "]more like his early self than his later, open one. This line at the bottom should not be there."}, {"response": 19, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (11:30)", "body": "Isn't the restrained nature of the lovers relationship, the very essense of a Jane Austen love story? The lover's uncertainties of feeling, the strictures of society,the opinions of others. The unequal status of the sexes during the period. D&B got it right. The later proposal and the kiss were done just right, seems to me. JE and CF got it right too."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Mari", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:05)", "body": "I'm with Bill on this one. The brevity of this scene has always bothered me, particularly the omission of their discussion of the letter, what he felt writing it, what she felt upon receiving it, how they both changed their prejudices after the entire incident; to me this is the climax of the story! Colin did very well with what he was given, but it was a very paltry opportunity compared to what could have been covered in terms of actual dialogue to act upon."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (13:48)", "body": "\"particularly the omission of their discussion of the letter, what he felt writing it, what she felt upon receiving it, how they both changed their prejudices after the entire incident; to me this is the climax of the story!\" This was particularly needed, since they did such a poor job of showing Lizzy's change of heart. From the production alone, one could fairly conclude that she changed her mind because of Pemberley and not Darcy. It would have been great if they had included this."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:03)", "body": "A while back we considered the possibilty of kidnapping CF and JE and making them do the missing scenes.There was something about holding Livia hostage!Maybe someone here would like to write the screenplay?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:08)", "body": "Yes, Caroline. That should be the launch event of our new nation, conceived in drooling. The Republic of Pemberley can capture the attention of the universe with this harmless act of terrorism."}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:57)", "body": "ANy volunteers to kidnap CF?"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (11:27)", "body": "I imagine we shall have a veritable brigade of kidnappers!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (22:31)", "body": "Okay, everybody, after watching and rewatching a bizillion times, I swear that Darcy leans down and kisses her right after the \"dearest, loveliest Elizabeth\"! I have not been able to forgive whoever decided to cut it! (I know, I know, Cheryl, we've argued this before. However, I remain unconvinced!)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (01:57)", "body": "Cindy wish I could get a hold of your copy, because in mine he does lean a bit but does'nt come close to touching her"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (07:14)", "body": "Is there not one among our true proficients, able to do a little magic with Paintbrush or Coral draw, scanning some scenes from P&P2 and just make it happen?? It ought to be a challenge ! HC, Joan too, Amy, Ian, who else? Surely it can't be regarded a bigger crime, than putting a moustache on the Mona-Lisa. Not that I know the penalty for that... And your reward would be the love of the masses (in Rep of Pemberley anyway)"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (08:27)", "body": "Do we have a picture that is quite close? Or would it have to be snappied in?"}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "I work in a place that could turn Colin Firth into Laurence Olivier, but I don't know if I could find a Henry operator to aid me in this dastardly deed!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (21:27)", "body": "Sorry, Johanne, but I'm sure that there's nothing magical about my copy. Cheryl has suggested that I'm seeing things because I want to see things. Hmph! It just looks too much like his downward motion had but one ultimate target. I can't imagine \"Cut!\" being yelled - too cruel"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "Oh cindy, get over it, move on with your life! ;-)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:18)", "body": "oh, admit it, Cheryl, there can be but one target"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (01:15)", "body": "Maybe it's a case of the famous 'Knightley second thought'? When he (in some adaptions) is on the brink of kissing Emma's hand after her Bates-remorse-visit and then get's control back and just looks at it with devotion.?? Maybe Darcy was afraid to let go, not knowing where a kiss might take him... Mmmm ladies? It would not be all that impossible then Amy? You could chop their heads from the wedding carriage and paste them on the second proposal bodies!! This blasphemous suggestion is to help me sober down and get on with todays work. A Book Fair being held in my town today. See you."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Megan", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (02:39)", "body": "Of all the episodes, my least favourite is the last episode, only because the last scenes seem to be cut too short. I think, because it is cut short there is not enough time to show the transition in Darcy's behaviour from the first visit to Longbourn to the wedding itself. In the book, when Darcy comes to Longbourn with Bingley he is described to look silent,grave and indifferent, more like in Hertfordshire than when Lizzy had seen him at Pemberly. CF looks exactly as described here I think. But because the next scene they are together is the second proposal scene, it would have looked strange if he looked too happy and unrestricted when she accepts it. I don't think he kisses her in that scene Cindy, but just gives the impression that he very much would like to. That is far more erotic to me than if he had actually kissed her there. Just adds up to the sexual tension and anticipation. My objection is to the next shot after that though, when they are walking side by side looking straight ahead and not touching each other. It would have been better if she took his arm or if they were looking at each other. The warmth of the moment seemed to disappear for e when I saw them walking not even looking at each other. Megan"}, {"response": 36, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "Right on, Megan! Davies gave us that hot kiss in EMMA 3; couldn't he have obliged us with CF & JE? Teazing, teazing man!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (12:05)", "body": "Guess Davies probably took notice of our disapointment in P&P's 2nd proposal' scene and tried to redeemed himself with the kiss in Emma :)"}, {"response": 38, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (13:52)", "body": "Johanne -- I bet you are correct about that. In the preface to The Making of Emma, Sue Birtwistle & Susie Conklin mention that they received thousands of letters about P&P2. I am certain many of them would include a comment about the lack of a kiss or touch following the second proposal. [We think we nitpick P&P2. One horticulturalist's letter commented on a variety of rosebush in the movie that wasn't introduced in England until 1830!]"}, {"response": 39, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (17:50)", "body": "okay, okay, okay, I'm starting to give (perhaps a very little) just because they meant to leave us wanting more, doesn't mean I have to like it! (and it doesn't mean he didn't actually kiss her. I think you hit it, Megan, that the contrast is simply too great between his leaning down (to kiss her!) and the platonic walk down the lane. I'll drop it so long as Cheryl doesn't say \"told you so\""}, {"response": 40, "author": "Donna", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:34)", "body": "Cindy,I'll just say that it looked very much to me that he really wanted to kiss her. Another fact is that in S&S nobody was kissed at all.Edward didn't kiss Elinor, and Col Brandon didn't kiss Marianne. Did anyone notice that? The first kiss I saw (after P&P2) was in Persuasion and was very surprised at that."}, {"response": 41, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (22:44)", "body": "As Emma Thompson said in her diaries from S&S, \"Can't rely on Austen for a snog, that's for sure.\" Her screenplay had Elinor & Edward kiss, and her diaries indicate that this scene was actually filmed. But it didn't make it to the final cut."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (00:43)", "body": "Cindy: I'll drop it so long as Cheryl doesn't say \"told you so\" Cindy dear, I should not dream of it. I am much too well-bred."}, {"response": 43, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (02:01)", "body": "Cheryl, you are not a ratbag. (I don't care what anybody says!)"}, {"response": 44, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:56)", "body": "Cheryl, can't you come out to L.A. tomorrow to join Anna P., Joan, & I? It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity!!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (23:03)", "body": "I'd love to, had hoped to when Anna and I first talked about this months ago, but this is Palm Sunday coming up and I have a ton of rehearsals for my choir's Easter Cantata in my church...have fun and give us a full report!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (05:19)", "body": "Donna, perhaps in S&S, there was a serious lack of chemistry between the pairs, excepting Marianne and Willoughby. Marianne had 'settled' for Col. Brandon and Col. Brandon knew he was being settle for; Edward was engaged to Lucy and one can only imagine that he was 'in-love' with Lucy at some point of that engagement and then to have him 'saved' from it by her running off with his brother. He then has licence to turn to Elinor, with an open heart, but I find it difficult to see attraction between the pa r since she is all restrain and he is all duty."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:23)", "body": "Has any one got pictures of that moment when Darcy leans over, and the kiss in the carriage?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:16)", "body": "This one?"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:54)", "body": "Well done, Candace! Where did you get this shot from?"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (09:32)", "body": "Serana- Re:Lacking Chemistry-do you mean has actors or fictional characters?"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (12:06)", "body": "Is that a makeup line at his jaw? I always wondered about it. Thanks"}, {"response": 52, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (12:31)", "body": "Well, he has his eyes closed :)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "candace", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (21:37)", "body": "\"Well done, Candace! Where did you get this shot from?\" I don't remember...either someone posted it on the spring somewhere or at Pemberley."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (23:07)", "body": "Yes, thanks Candace. Now, does anyone have the 'dearest, loveliest' leaning over moment?"}, {"response": 55, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (23:51)", "body": "Hil, what did Lori call that? The lip dip?"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:24)", "body": "Donna, I meant the fictional characters. On the whole, S&S didn't sizzle in terms of romance for me. I read it and watch it only for Willougby and Marianne, especially when he rides through the night to see if she's alright at the end of the novel. I love the man. Candace, that was marvelous."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (06:31)", "body": "Anne! Is that your way to keep calm? Make-up line! Snort!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (10:27)", "body": "Serana-A kiss between Edward and Elinor would have been great when they are leaving the church,instead he kissed here hand. Yes there wasn't much lust in the movie. The chemistry between Elinor and Edward was that they were so much alike. I just felt that they needed to be together."}, {"response": 59, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (10:53)", "body": "These two:"}, {"response": 60, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "Seems to me all that kissing and physical hanky-panky should be kept to a minimum in any JA adaption. Conflicts with sentiments of a higher nature. Too much physicality in today's films, anyway. I'll allow for maybe one kiss in the streets of Bath as maybe in Persuasion; but that's all."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (12:23)", "body": "Ann - no not really! But I noticed it in the video. Maybe its fixed in the 6 volume set. Wished I had not noticed it. In my mind, Colin Firth doesn't need any makeup!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (16:04)", "body": "Anne - that's not a make-up line on the video! It's a shadow where his collar stands away from his neck and the lighting is such that the shadow looks like it could be a line between make-up and no make-up.!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar 30, 1997 (16:40)", "body": "Agreed, Inko. It disappears as the shot continues. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 229, "subject": "Rambo III (ramble)", "response_count": 72, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (16:02)", "body": "Started a new topic for The English Patient"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "I too would rather have seen the focus of the movie be on Kip and Hana. Their relationship was much much more interesting to me than Almasy's and Katherine's. They were more the focus of the book, but I guess the adapters decided they weren't as interesti ng, or that it would be harder to focus the film on them (it would have been less picturesque)."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:08)", "body": "Here is a totally useless ramble with absolutely no point, except within my own head, but I'm not going to divulge the point to you!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (23:16)", "body": "Oh dear, Ann has been in Minnesota in the winter for too, too long!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (04:28)", "body": "My brain hurts."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (10:05)", "body": "Kali, I feel for you! Finals over yet?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "It was a nice (though chilly) weekend in DC. I saw my little brother on Friday, and we went to 2 museums, and walked my feet off! We saw an exhibit on the 1936 Berlin Olympics at the Holocaust Museum that was very well done -- very moving and informativ e. Then we went to the Sackler Museum of Asian Art (one of the two underground museums on the mall). Dinner with my brother and his colleagues at an Ethiopian restaurant, then back to my friends' apartment. Yesterday I got to Borders Bookstore (I should never be allowed in a bookstore or hardware store with a credit card!). What a nice visit and shoppi ng trip. The only bad thing about the whole weekend was there was nobody to talk to about Jane Austen adaptations and such. It is good to be back."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "Aww. Do you do office supply stores, too, Inko?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (13:57)", "body": "I mean kath leen . Geez. Please forgive me."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:04)", "body": "While kathleen has happily traded her solitude for the company of relatives, I joyfully take my children to the airport within the hour!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (14:10)", "body": "Spring brake Amy?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (17:01)", "body": "Kathleen, did you go to the Borders at White Flint Mall in MD? I can spend hours and hours there and usually do! It's a great place if you are waiting for a table at the Cheesecake Factory! Next time you're here I'll give you my phone # - we can always get together for an Austen binge!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "Inko: the Borders at White Flint Mall in MD Yes, indeed. I also stopped at Chapters on K Street (close to the hotel my brother was staying at) -- I bought a total of nine books this trip, which is not a record, but should be! Another time, I may have to call you just to hear about all of our Austen conference friends! Maybe, though, it's good to test myself away from this place. After all, I may have to be away from a computer on some of my other vacation/work trips. :-) ( Where was the tertiary addiction site that Henry had?)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "Yes, but now I have no brakes. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (20:54)", "body": "The one thing I dread about my long trip to England this summer is being away from my computer! Just to think - 7 weeks away - how will I ever bear it? Last summer I was not yet on the Internet and didn't know what I was missing! I'll just have to find a cybercafe in London - I know they have them there!!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (21:04)", "body": "Amy -- be careful, without brakes you will have to watch for speed bumps! Inko -- cybercafes in London, huh? I may have to check that out."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (21:11)", "body": "Maybe Bernie could find out something about the interuniversity network for you."}, {"response": 18, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (16:20)", "body": "Happy St. Patrick's Day to All!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Becks", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (23:36)", "body": "I know how you feel Inko--three months for me"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "Does Adi still visit here? Thinking of you, Adi, after this past weekend."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (00:16)", "body": "Thanks, Caroline...midterms over, paper left to finish! Ugh! Actually, though, the brain comment was re: the conversation on this tres intellectual thread! ;) --- Chevy Chase?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "jennyh", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (12:32)", "body": "This may not be right place to post this article, but here it goes. (I and my hubby were amuzed at different parts, but then again I find myself to have unusal sense of humor.) Some psychologists believe spending too much time online can lead to a clinically diagnosable Internet \"addiction\". And several are offering counseling specifically for people who are inextricabley tangled in the WWW. .......a survey if students..of 387 who said they log on at least once a week, 13% met criteria for addition, including tolerance (requireing longer periods of time to achieve satisfaction) and withdrawal (depression, moodiness, or irritability when off-l ine). The problem is not confiend to campuses. .... identified 400 people she described as \"Internet dependent\". Woman made up 60%, and averaged 43 years of age, compared with 29 for men. Dependents averaged 38.5 hours a week online, largely in \"chatr oms,\"......like alcoholics, many in her sample had tried unsuccessfully to quit. Some threw out their modems, then bought new ones. Like other addicts, they reported that their compulsion also interfered with work, finances, and relationships. ... lists her cirteria for Internet addiction at http://www.pitt.edu/~ksy/ . I guess I am one of those out-of-control people, but I do NOT want to be cured. (now I feel bad.......)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (12:37)", "body": "Well, Jenny - you know the first step is admitting you *have* a problem.... ;) I don't want a cure, either!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (13:39)", "body": "We never did finish the 12 steps. Anybody want to jump back in an suggest a contribution? AA's 12 steps Our steps so far"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (17:14)", "body": "] Woman made up 60%, and averaged 43 years of age, Oh no! there's that magic number again! But I will be off the hook come the end of June."}, {"response": 26, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (03:37)", "body": "Just a quick note to say that I will probably be mostly invisible until Sunday - am off to my conference in Los Angeles in the morning..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (04:15)", "body": "I have noticed your absence for days already, Joan. I thought maybe you'd gone already. Say hi to Anna and Amy2."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (11:00)", "body": "Have fun! ;)"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Becks", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:30)", "body": "Have a blast, and tell all when you get back!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (01:30)", "body": "Happy trip Joan. Your garden will have gone through some magical changes when you return!! I've got my first Iris too now.Deep blue with yellow marks on the petals, in a pattern resembling a tiny feather. Don't remember it's name ..."}, {"response": 31, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (05:35)", "body": "My yard is once again covered with snow. Oh well, the flowers will be here soon, I just know it!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (14:09)", "body": "To follow our fashion discussion in Steven Waddington's drool topic : Amy and HC, here is probably want comes close to what I mean, many I have are not already scanned it would require a device of some sort, I believe, but not a mention in any of the books I have home, further research will be needed. As mentionned, only a phrase stipulating a lady bearing that name would know how skillfully and gracefully lift her trained skirt with one hand the other in her partner's hand when dancing a waltz."}, {"response": 33, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (14:11)", "body": "But it doesn't sound right, her skirt should be hanging from her wrist, the one in her partner's, the other on partner's shoulder, no?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (15:04)", "body": "We shall work this out."}, {"response": 35, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (16:50)", "body": "I have this vague idea that she wouldn't have her hand on his shoulder at all. She would have her right hand in his and her left hand holding her skirt. His left hand would hold hers, and his right hand would be at her waist. The lady placing her hand on his shoulder is a more recent development?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (17:09)", "body": "I think you are right, Kate. It seems like I've seen movies in which the lady even just sort of extends her arm out a little to the side without even grasping her skirt."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (17:13)", "body": "Oh man. An exceedingly rare (for these parts) case of Spring cleaning hit my house today -- albeit only parts or aspects of one room. I even was motivated to yank a heat register out of the floor and scrub it up. I wore some paint off. Thank the ever blessed and merciful godess of moderation and her little helper fairies for forcibily restraining me when I got a ridiculous urge to parint the thing."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "I can't believe this! The !@#%^$^! jerks who run the university servers are cutting account disk quotas by two-thirds! I saw the message upon login, and laughed out loud! It's hard enough for me to keep my disk usage down as it is...DAMN! Not like they're registering new accounts for the uclink machine...they haven't in three years. Thank goodness for the ocf..."}, {"response": 39, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (04:42)", "body": "What's your quota at now, Kali?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:18)", "body": "It's NCAA tournament time (when 64 of our colleges best basketball teams play for the championship)---GO BIG BLUE!!!!! I brought this up just so I could say how impressed I was with the University of Kentucky's coach, Rick Pitino. Kentucky's best player wrecked his knee in January but has, it was determined this week, fully recovered. At least 8 doctors have examined him and they all conclude that he is fit to play. A yes! moment for us Big Blue fans, because another player was lost this week to injury and the rest of the team (only 8 guys) is pretty banged up. Pitino, after some soul-searching, announced that he woul NOT play Anderson. He said that he would not/could not put Anderson's future as a pro player in jeopardy, even if it means that Kentucky will not win the championship this year, as they did last year. Kentucky fans expect their team to win it all every year because it is one of the best quality programs in the country. Now I know for sure that the coach is of the best quality, too! sorry for rambling about sports, but I remember all of that Super Bowl nonsense. . . . ;-)"}, {"response": 41, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:30)", "body": "Meggin, I am impressed with this, too. Coachamania starts very early, as I have seen with some of my son's involvement, so his putting it aside for the greater good of his student is certainly to be Ramble-worthy"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:34)", "body": "Terry, to answer your question: Disk quota information for account dxiechkn: File system: /tmp Purpose: temporary files Usage: 4 kilobytes. Quota: 10000 Absolute limit: 100000 Quota status: under quota File system: /h/uclink_c Purpose: home directory and mail folders except inbox Usage: 1409 kilobytes. Quota: 500 Absolute limit: 5000 Quota status: *** over quota *** File system: /var/spool/mail Purpose: mail inbox Usage: 1840 kilobytes. Quota: 15000 Absolute limit: 20000 All I can say is GO BEARS!!!! First time in the Elite Eight since the sixties...:)"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Ann", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "Minnesota, hats off to thee. To our colors true we shall ever be. Firm and strong, United are we. Rah Rah Rah for sky-u-mah! Rah Rah Rah for sky-u-mah! Rah for the U of M! Go Minnesota Golden Gophers!!!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:02)", "body": "Ann, you'll be pleased to know that my son and a family friend are going to the final game tomorrow afternoon. (Look for the blond 10-yr-old that looks like me.) ;-) They'll be cheering for your favorite rodents, er rather, gophers. ;-)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "Texas is going for the elite 8 against Louisville right now. Go horns!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:21)", "body": "Hook 'em!"}, {"response": 47, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "37-31 UT with about a minute left in the half."}, {"response": 48, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (02:40)", "body": "I'll be incommunicado for a few days. It's Spring Break (yay, no lessons for a week), and I'm heading out to visit friends. In fact, I have to leave soon -- it's a 2-1/2 hour drive to Dulles airport, and I have a 7 am flight. I \"see\" you all late Tuesday/early Wednesday. P.S. Save some Cold Comfort Farm discussion for me. (There's always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm.)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (09:49)", "body": "Just to add a little international flavour to this CARN THE MAGGIES!!! (Just to translate: Carn is an Australianism meaning come on, which is usually said at high volume at a football match. The kind of football being discussed is Australian rules, which is unlike soccer, rugby, or that strange thing you call football in the US, which as far as I can see doesn't involve feet touching the ball at all. The Maggies, (Magpies) are Collingwood, so called because like Magpies (an Aus. bird) their colours are black and white. Collingwood is, of course the greatest team, and Col ingwood barrackers (ie supporters) are totally one-eyed (can't see the good in any other team - so everyone hates us and we love it))"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (09:57)", "body": "Australian rules is pretty rough, isn't it Kate?"}, {"response": 51, "author": "kate", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:26)", "body": "No where near as violent as rugby, or American football for that matter. It is very fast moving - not so much use of sheer physical force to get the ball. They jump really high to catch it in their hands - it's very exciting to watch."}, {"response": 52, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "Well, then, Carn the Maggies, it is! :-)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:56)", "body": "and Go, gophers! - hey, Ann?"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (19:37)", "body": "LOL Kate! Was that like explaining a joke? I agree AFL is not nearly as rough as rugby, and a good spectator game because its fast moving and flows well, and the marking (the high jumps to catch to ball) is spectacular. Also the players physiques are generally tall and fairly lean, and for some reason I don't understand they wear shorts so tight you would swear they were going to split. Interesting article in the paper yesterday about how promoters have realised that televised sport can play a role similar to soap operas. They think that many people who watch sport kid themselves they are watching to appreciate the skill and techniques, whereas they are getting as bound up emotionally as some people do in soap operas. One-day cricket, because of pace, the time aspects, personalities and range of drama, is seen as the epitome of this. And for this reason, promoters think one-day cricket ould be marketable in the States!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (22:42)", "body": "GO BIG BLUE!!!!! Git them yellar squirrels! ;-)"}, {"response": 56, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (23:45)", "body": "Wildcats Forever!!"}, {"response": 57, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (00:35)", "body": "Minnesota Golden Gophers are in the final four!!!!! why anyone would choose a chipmunk for a mascot is beyond me! (although they do run all over the campus.)"}, {"response": 58, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:30)", "body": "Man, we choked last night...what a disappointment! Oh well...'twas supposed to be a \"building year\" anyway... \"On our rugged eastern foothills, Stands our symbol clear and bold (bold, bold, bold!)... Big C means to fight and strive and win for blue and gold ... Golden Bear is ever-watching, day by day he prowls... And when he hears the tread of lowly Stanfurd red , From his lair he fiercely growls! (What's he say? He sez:) GRRRRAH! GRRRRAH! GRRRR-GRRRR-GRRRR-RAH!!! We are sons of California, Fighting for the gold and blue ... Palms of glory we will win for alma mater true... Stanfurd's men will soon be routed, by our dazzling C ! And when we serpentine, their red will turn to GREEN ... In our hour of victory!\" GO BEARS!!!!!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:32)", "body": "Oh, in case you're wondering, most of our fight songs involve crushing Stanford...no one else really matters...;)"}, {"response": 60, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (02:51)", "body": "I have noticed your absence for days already, Joan. I thought maybe you'd gone already. No - was inundated with IEPs to write the week in advance of leaving. Playing catch-up tonight... Your garden will have gone through some magical changes when you return!! I'm sure it has - but must wait till it gets light to see in what manner. :-) I've got my first Iris too now.Deep blue with yellow marks on the petals, in a pattern resembling a tiny feather. Sounds like Dutch Iris - does it resemble this in general shape and form?"}, {"response": 61, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (06:58)", "body": "Hey, you are back. Tell us about your rendezvous, where you like old friends?"}, {"response": 62, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (07:58)", "body": "I want the camera, Joan. What an image."}, {"response": 63, "author": "kate", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "]the players physiques are generally tall and fairly lean, and for some reason I don't understand they wear shorts so tight you would swear they were going to split. Hilary, you found out why I REALLY like watching the footy. And yes is was rather like explaining a joke, but I'm getting quite good at that!"}, {"response": 64, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (13:42)", "body": "LOL Kate! To my way of thinking they beat Rugby physiques anyday! BTW, I was telling my husband that someone here was an Australian in NYS, and this just tripped off his tongue (apologies.... understand we had been imbibing wine and chocolate!) An Australian woman called Kate Went looking in search of a mate She scoured the whole land But the males were too bland So she said 'Stuff it! I'll try New York State'."}, {"response": 65, "author": "kate", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:31)", "body": "LOL Hil. Perhaps a little too close to the truth!!! Canberra's a hopeless place to be single... ] they beat Rugby physiques anyday! Give me those long legs over those thick necks and cauliflower ears"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:42)", "body": "Several of us were thinking about having an Oscar Party tomorrow night. Anyone interested? The telecastbegins at 6pm PST, so shall we start gathering about 5:30 at Pemberley? See you there...I hoping that Ralph will be in his tux and Kenneth in his undershirt...;-)"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:45)", "body": "Man, I'm at home and Netscape doesn't work on my dad's machine...so that means that aol will keep me from hanging out with you..."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:52)", "body": "I'll drop in if I can, Cheryl."}, {"response": 69, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (18:42)", "body": "I'll try and drop in for a bit Cheryl, but it starts at 9 p.m. here and won't be over till after midnight!!"}, {"response": 70, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "I want the camera, Joan. What an image. It can be yours for a mere $600+. ;-) I'm at home and Netscape doesn't work on my dad's machine...so that means that aol will keep me from hanging out with you... Why won't it work? Is it a memory problem? Do you want a copy of the 2.02 installer via e-mail? I have it at school, since that is what we are using there because most of our computers don't have enough memory to run 3.0"}, {"response": 71, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:09)", "body": "Tell us about your rendezvous, where you like old friends? Indeed, we sat so long yacking in the restaurant that the waiter kept making passes by our table making ever-so-discrete suggestions that we might be ready to pay our bill and leave."}, {"response": 72, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (18:18)", "body": "Thanks, Joan...actaully, it was a problem with the dialer preferences which was making Netcom inaccessible...so I had to use my dad's aol connection...I found a way to minimize memory usage while on aol, so I can open netscape. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 23, "subject": "Has anyone noticed...?", "response_count": 50, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "panache", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (06:57)", "body": "media delights : \"Chestnuts roasting on the open fire/Jack Frost nipping at your nose\" (sing it, Nat!)...all right, girls, are you in the mood for some early Yuletide cheer? If you're stateside and have the right cable or satellite system, check out these showtimes for Mr. Colin \"L-B\" Firth. HOSTAGES (1993) Kathy Bates, Colin Firth. (Adult language) on A&E channel, Dec. 15, 10 a.m. (PST?). 2 hrs. VALMONT (1989) Colin Firth, Meg Tilly, Annette Bening. (very, very R) on Bravo channel, Dec. 10, 7:30p.m. (PST?); Dec. 11, 12:30 p.m. (PST?); Dec. 19, 9:30 a.m., 5 and 11 p.m. (PST?). 2 hrs. 17 min. I realize this is not Darcy in these, but why not examine his other film efforts? Other December viewing recommendations: 84 CHARING CROSS ROAD (1987) Nanne Bancroft, Anthony Hopkins. (PG) on Bravo channel, Dec. 8, 6 p.m., midnight; Dec. 9, 2:15 p.m.; Dec. 18, 9:30 a.m. and 8 p.m. (PST?). 1 hr. 37 min. EMILY BRONTE'S WUTHERING HEIGHTS (1993) Ralph Fiennes, Juliette Binoche. on TNT channel, Dec. 26, 5 and 9:30 p.m. (PST?). 2 hr. 15 min. THE HORSE'S MOUTH (1958) Alec Guinness, Kay Walsh. on Bravo channel, Dec. 5, 11:30 a.m.; Dec. 14, noon; Dec. 23, 2:15 p.m. (PST?). 1 hr. 33 min. Yes, there are still a few reasons to own that TV and VCR; when we can kick this Net habit long enough to view that older technology, that is ;-)."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (07:33)", "body": "Thanks, Cecily. How I wish my cable system had Bravo. I used to enjoy it so much when I lived in Chicago. In addition to the movies, I liked the Actors Studio interviews. Are they still making those shows? I wonder if they are on video. Libraries should have them, don't you librarians agree? How many do we have now. There's Ann2 and I know at least one other."}, {"response": 3, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (07:46)", "body": "It's Anne, not Nanne, Bancroft in 84 CHARING CROSS, right? Good book, too."}, {"response": 4, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (07:47)", "body": "It's Anne, not Nanne, Bancroft in 84 CHARING CROSS, right? Good book, too."}, {"response": 5, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (13:06)", "body": "I believe Jeremy Northam is also in this version of Wuthering Heights."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (14:03)", "body": "CF on the front cover of Dec. issue of A&E monthly subscrib or purchase at Barnes and Nobles nice pic. from Valmont {carring Meg Tilly} and sitting in bamboo chair with legs crossed and hand ON handsome little chin in black jeans and dark blue jeanjacket his hair is short. Interviewed while making 1,000 Acres, The Title PRIDE,PREJUDICE and a LITTLE PERSUASION. I want more...."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Zimei", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (14:17)", "body": "Valmont was the first CF movie I rented aftr P&P2, I really enjoyed it. It's a drastically different adaption of Les Liaisons dangereuses than the Oscar winning Dangerous Liaisons year earlier, it's vastly entertaining and superbly acted, and with some most beautiful film music. It was directed by Milos Forman, who is also the director of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and Amadeus (one of my all-time favorites). Colin was much younger looking and very handsome in the film and did a fantastic job as valmont. The only thing bothered me was the apparent American accents from several principals, true that the characters were French but British English at least existed then, and it's not that hard with some practice. I now own the video and have watched quite a few times already. Hostages is about the five-year long Libenan hostage crisis. Colin played a young British journalist, who was one of the hostages. He had dark curly hair and beautiful smiles (oh those adorable dimples!), looked breath-takingly handsome at the beginning and the end of the movie when he was not a hostage. Not the greatest movie I have to say but a must-see for CF fans. Zimei"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Zimei", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (14:25)", "body": "Donna, are you saying A&E Monthly is available in Barnes & Nobles ? In the magazine section ? Zimei"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (19:42)", "body": "are you saying A&E Monthly is available in Barnes & Nobles ? In the magazine section ? _______________ Zimei, I have found it in my Borders. But I am not going to Borders these days. Have you guys heard about the flap with Michael Moore and his book signings?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (19:53)", "body": "no Amy, do tell..."}, {"response": 11, "author": "haker", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (20:36)", "body": "I was at two dofferent Barnes Ignobles today. One had only the November A&E Monthly and the other only had the October one!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "haker", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (20:38)", "body": "By the way, haker = Ann."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (20:44)", "body": "Ann, where have you been, pal?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Dec  1, 1996 (21:03)", "body": "Colinstuff for those that can receive Canadian Channels...... \"Another Country\" MONDAY DEC 2 11p.m. EST TUESDAY DEC 3 2.30 a.m. EST. Mr Firth made this twelve(!) years ago with Rupert Everett and Cary Elwes. It's a fictionalised account of the schooldays of Guy Burgess and Donald McLean two of Britain's most famous KGB moles.On SHOWCASE TELEVISION in the Showcase Review spot. PRESENTLY SHOWING, on the MOVIE NETWORK, at various times, is \"Circle Of Friends\" Hope some of you at least can catch these!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Dec  3, 1996 (12:20)", "body": "Thanks Caroline, got it (the first one) on tape last night... but the video stopped recording before it ended (misjudged timing). Same voice but, comparing the difference as I rapidly view the cassette of P&P2, what a change. Loved them both. Definitely a very good actor indeed. Which do you all prefer, the young twenty-ish or the more mature 35-ish ? I my self found his role in Another Country more intricate, the results of more lines ? But his performance in P&P2 is brilliant considering what he deliver without dialogue."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Dec  3, 1996 (15:28)", "body": "I just picked up a copy of the Amanda Root video tape. It actually had her and Ciaran Hinds on the cover and not som Fabio wanna-be!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Dec  3, 1996 (22:11)", "body": "How nuch did you miss, Johanne? Can I fill you in on the ending? I relly enjoyed the whole thing-so dark and depressing, but so beautifully crafted. Rupert E was really good, and Cary Elwes SOO sweet and so young looking. I thought their dinner in the hotel was wonderfully done. As to Colin, his character was far less sympathetic- a smart-arsed,uncompromising, idealistic political radical. But I found myself hanging on every word,nonetheless. I found his voice a bit flat-sounding-- Darcy's voice is much r cher,with more overtones in it. Is this age and experience, or just Colin's way of filling out his characters? I thinkI prefer the older Colin, how about you?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Dec  3, 1996 (22:14)", "body": "To Anne I know what you mean.Those legs that go on for miles........Wanna thread about Mr Hinds?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Elaine", "date": "Wed, Dec  4, 1996 (07:45)", "body": "What is the A&E Classroom? If it is programming viewed by lit students, is there a text which accompanies the program?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Dec  4, 1996 (19:47)", "body": "There are some lesson plans and suggested activities. They are all posted on A&E's web site in the Classroom section."}, {"response": 21, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Dec  5, 1996 (15:38)", "body": "Caroline, I probably did'nt miss much. They pass the incourt fountain and you here Bennet to say Judd was killed in the Spanish war and then ... greeeechchchchch. That is one the kind of movies I prefer. With something to say, great quality and non-Hollywoodish, not that I don't enjoy a good special effect/drama \ufffd la Spielberg. But european cin\ufffdma is the other cinema. Enjoyed CF very much, almost a different person, and like you I found is voice more mature and experience. He is performing great craft. Honestly, is character was my favorite : uncompromising, idealist and rebel to his world. Defenitely strikes a chord. I like tge adventurous type. See you on thread 73..."}, {"response": 22, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Dec  6, 1996 (02:33)", "body": "For those able to receive PBS channel KTEH in San Jose (Calif), the following are being broadcast on Friday Dec. 6th: 04:00- 4:30 pm Wishbone Furst Impressions 125 (CC) PBS 00:28:12 08:13pm Ruth Rendell Mysteries Master Of The Moor (1 Of 3) 204 PRG 00:52:01 Stephen Whalby (Colin Firth) discovers the blonde-headed body of an artist on Vangmoor. He is interviewed by Det. Insp. Manciple (George Costigan) an ex-met police officer who clearly suspects everybody. Stephen's father warns him to stay away from the moor. Stephen's marriage is in jeopardy. His wife Lyn (Emma Croft) is having an affair. At the end of the episode, Stephen finds a second blonde-headed body. 09:25pm Ruth Rendell Mysteries Master Of The Moor (2 Of 3) 205 PRG 00:50:27 Stephen is haunted by childhood memories of Vangmoor and sightings of a mysterious moor man. Manciple becomes even more suspicious of Stephen and Lyn accuses him of murdering the two women. Stephen finally meets his mother who walked out on his father, and who he hasn't seen in 20 years. And Stephen finds remnants of the dead women's' blonde hair in a cave he played in as a child. 10:36pm Ruth Rendell Mysteries Master Of The Moor (3 Of 3) 206 PRG 00:51:14 Lyn tells Stephen about her affair. Stephen finally meets the moor man and discovers that he is his cousin and childhood friend. Lyn disappears and is believed to have been murdered."}, {"response": 23, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Fri, Dec 27, 1996 (11:02)", "body": "I'm going to post this on a couple of topic threads--- there is excellent film discussion of Colin in A Month in the Country (AMITC) going on at http://www.iupui.edu/~rogersc/filmdisc/AMITC.html Another fine film by Colin (and his favorite); it's worth renting the video."}, {"response": 24, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Fri, Dec 27, 1996 (11:06)", "body": "Thanks to AbFab at another site, here are CyberKisses for Colin (An Amusing Diversion): http://www.geocities.com/Paris/8801"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Donna", "date": "Fri, Dec 27, 1996 (11:14)", "body": "Yes France, it is quite an amusing diversion, adorable,and an affectionate idea."}, {"response": 26, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (09:37)", "body": "On Amy's old BB, there's mention of a new book, DARCY'S STORY, out in the UK since July '96, that has some good reviews, it seems. Check out these places for postings and book itself. http://www.bluemarble.net/~amyloo/wwwboard/ppbb.htm and http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/xda34/"}, {"response": 27, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (09:42)", "body": "sorry, I forgot the \"l\" on \"html\" for above site. Try again: http://www.bluemarble.net/~amyloo/wwwboard/ppbb.html"}, {"response": 28, "author": "carolee", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (18:55)", "body": "I have DARCY'S STORY. Purchased at the gift shop at Lyme Park. It is a very quick read. At least half of the book is a repeat of the dialogue from P&P2. The rest is pretty interesting. Would be happy to circulate it. Contact me via e-mail"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (23:17)", "body": "You guys come up with the most interesting topics, and they're generally ones I've thought about myself. I think CF has definitely improved with age; some men just do. He's much more attractive as he's gotten older. Although I thought his character in Valmont was very sexy (charging after Meg Tilly on his charger), he himself had not reached his full potential. He has now -- with a vengeance."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (19:36)", "body": "Susan, I too think he's very attractive now, but it may be because he's been given meatier roles after P&P. His acting has always been excellent, IMHO."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "Good point, Inko. I do think he's just more attractive the older he gets, though. Think Sean Connery :)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (17:25)", "body": "]Think Sean Connery :) mmmmmmmmhhhhhhhhhhnnnnnnnn!!!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (18:54)", "body": "]Think Sean Connery:) But only when he was older - not so much as the young 007 but think \"Hunt for Red October\"!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (20:28)", "body": "That \"First Knight\""}, {"response": 35, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "I'm with Inko here, I never liked the James Bond films, but it was Red October (and everything since) that made me go \"ooh...Sean Connery...ooh...\" ;-)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Elaine", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (08:39)", "body": "The Rock is an excellent example of Sean's appeal, especially the scene in the Fairmont after they clean him up and put him in a Darcy-est black suit. He plays a 60 year old. Is that possibly his real age?"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (14:24)", "body": "Elaine: He plays a 60 year old. Is that possibly his real age? Oh, he's older than that even, isn't he?"}, {"response": 38, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (14:39)", "body": "Mr. Thomas Sean Connery will star as God in A Life Less Ordinary with Ewan McGregor (our Frank Churchill) and sexy Cameron Diaz. Date of Birth (location) : 25 August 1930, Edinburgh, Scotland Mini biography : Despite his childhood rear familying in a blue collar, Connery found fame and fortune as the suave, sophisticated British agent, James Bond. After six Bond films, Connery yearned to break from the Bond image, and eventually earned an Oscar as veteran Chicago cop, Jimmy Malone, in THE UNTOUCHABLES. A genuine movie star, his co-stars often complement his professionalism. Connery continues to be at his best when he plays no-nonsense characters. Spouse : 'Micheline Roquebrune' (1975 - ?) Diane Cilento (1962 - 1973) (divorced) Trade mark Whatever the part, he always has a Scottish accent Trivia In 1953, he entered the Mr. Universe contest, finishing third in the tall man's division. He was voted PEOPLE's \"Sexiest Man Alive\" in 1989. Father of Jason Connery Now resides in Spain. According to his friend, Michael Caine, he is a bit of a hypochondriac. Sean Connery wears a toupee in all the James Bond movies. He started loosing his hair already at the age of 21. Privately and in most other movies, he wears none. He has two small tattoos on his right arm. One says \"Scotland forever\", the other \"Mum and Dad\" He got them when he enlisted in the British Navy at the age of 16. At the age of 19 he was a nude model for the Edinburgh Art College. Took dancing lessons for 11 years. His teacher was the Swedish dancer Gert Malmgren. Thinks that the James Bond movies have stagnated and that Quentin Tarantino should direct the coming ones. Other works \"Male of the Species\" (3 January 1969), as Guest Personal quotes \"I never disliked Bond, as some have thought. Creating a character like that does take a certain craft. It's simply natural to seek other roles.\" \"More than anything else, I'd like to be an old man with a good face, like Hitchcock or Picasso.\""}, {"response": 39, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (15:26)", "body": "Johanne: At the age of 19 he was a nude model for the Edinburgh Art College. ooh baby, ooh baby! Thanks Johanne for the info! 66 yrs. old! Wow!"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Elaine", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (09:17)", "body": "Connery is amazing...he looks old in /The Rock , somewhere between 40 and 80, but at the same time mesmerizing, drop-dead attractive in gleaming silver-white hair. Can't believe it's a wig! I've never particularly noticed Connery before, but this look is well worth make-up dept. efforts and accompanying hyper-ventilation. Has he ever played a romantic lead? He was, of course, terrific in Dragonheart but? Now, we can image Firth in 30 years...oh, and then there's Connery at 96! Life can't e any better than this."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (11:04)", "body": "Elaine: Has he ever played a romantic lead? Elaine, check out \"Robin and Marian\" it's about Robin Hood and Maid Marian in their later years. Sean Connery is Robin and Audrey Hepburn plays Marian. It is quite a nice, sweet little film...men never do really grow up, do they? :-)"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (16:06)", "body": "]men never do really grow up, do they? :-) nor women...(at least not this one"}, {"response": 43, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (20:24)", "body": "Elaine and Cheryl: other Connery films to consider include: 1) THE WIND AND THE LION, a platonic-satiric romance with SC as a Moroccan sheik and Candace Bergen as K. Hepburn-like American widow; 2) MEDICINE MAN, a more recent film with same type feisty-funny woman and SC as cancer-researcher in rainforest; 3) DARBY O'GILL & THE LITTLE PEOPLE, with a very young handsome SC romantic lead in old Ireland (Disney romance); 4) (GAWAIN & ) THE GREEN KNIGHT, a campy Arthurian tale with SC as the magical g. knigh ... all show very different sides to SC but always he has that intelligently gentle, slightly sneering smile and wicked sparkle in his eyes... as a matter of astrological note, Sean Connery, Colin Firth, and Sophia Loren are all three very attractive Virgos in film careers..."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Elaine", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (08:25)", "body": "Unknowingly, I have seen all these Connery films and thought them entertaining, worthwhile but not captivating. After the Rock, I was in the mood for a romance with POW. Connery seems capable, proven commercial but I don't think he's ever performed with raw passion. He seems to play it safe, reflecting, I imagine, the preferences of the public."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (19:54)", "body": "I personally Iiked Connery best as Bond, James Bond, but I believe the point was that he's an example of a handsome man getting even more handsome as he gets older. No acting necessary for that!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "MaryC", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (22:07)", "body": "Another of his early movies was \"Marnie\", I always liked what he did with that role."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (12:46)", "body": "Glad I got me a bargain video tape yesterday on a silly market we have here in the end of January every year.(Hindersm\ufffdssan! Like Henry's mas) Guess what ? amongst all sorts of candy and awful shirts and useless painted baskets and sausages and pictures portraying children with tears down their cheeks, supposed to arise your pity I suppose. 'The First Knight' with Sean Connery ! Lucky me. He looks exceedingly well on the cover."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (01:12)", "body": "Ann2, dear, pray inform us what American movie you have been watching that gave you that \"got me a bargain\" phrase?"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (06:48)", "body": "The man sings in Darby O'Gill..."}, {"response": 50, "author": "genie", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (15:04)", "body": "Another fabulous Connery movie is \"The Man Who Would Be King\" with Michael Caine and Christopher Plummer. It's not a romantic movie but Connery is wonderful in it. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 230, "subject": "The English Patient (continued)", "response_count": 21, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (17:37)", "body": "I have also heard similar critcism of TEP: the movie is too long, the flashbacks are annoying and disjointed, they wanted more Hannah and Kip, and it's just an \"artsy chick flick\". I have even heard the reverse, it's a Man's love story-the hero rescues his beloved from the plane wreckage and jumps out of a train to get back to her. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. It seems to me you either love or hate TEP, there are no in betweens. (As I'm in the \"love\" camp)What bothers me the most about the \"backlash\", however, is this attempt to moralize TEP. Some people are offended by Ondaajte's choice of a hero, a Nazi spy. I think they are really missing the point of the book-its not about politics or boundaries. Almasy had to get back to keep his promise to K. Even Caravaggio, after his long search, can't kill TEP. As Almast says \"well, hundreds of people died anyways.\" TEP is not Casablanca-\"the way we wanted to be\" where right and wrong is easily and clearly distinguishable: Ingrid Bergman tearfully leaving Bogie behind in the fog and the white hatted and suited freedom fighter, Paul Henreid/Lazlo, leading everyone in the Marseillaise. TEP is an epic love story about two flawed, passionate people caught up in circumstances, history way beyond their control. I posed a question over in the RF's topic-why does Katherine love Almasy? Obviously it would have made her life simpler, happier(as well as Almasy's life) if she didn't. And as for \"the hormonal rush\" argument, I completely disagree. The relationship is a highle charged physical one, but when Almasy promises to come back for her, she believes him and so do we! (WEll, at least, I did, along with my teary-eyed compatriots in the theatre) I believe that Katherine could not help loving Almasy because they were two halves of the same soul-these two tightly-closed, intense individuals with a cold exterior belying the passionate interior. Great move on Minghella's part by having RF refer to K as his wife. That's the way I have always seen their relationship. I'm not upholding or promoting infidelity, but I don't think that's the message of the film, if it even has a message. Criticizing the film, then, on the basis of \"moral bankruptcy\" is pretty futile. TEP is not about preaching or giving easy answers-it is in many ways a mystery story. I think Ondaajte and Minghella wanted to present this passionate, doomed relationship, admist the exotic backdrop of the desert and the turmoil of WW2, with all of its pain and wistful beauty."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (18:47)", "body": "Here, here Cass! I totally agree. TEP wasn't one of my all time favorite films (sorry Cass!) but it was well worth seeing and would be worthy of the Academy Award...especially considering some of the past recipients...I loved the cinematography and I definitely do not think that it was a chick movie."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Mar 15, 1997 (20:55)", "body": "The book and the film, in part, take the view that war is morally bankrupt, and that is part of what they are showing by analogy in the failed love story. The boundaries that we place on eachother and on the map of the world are artificial, and some things trancend such boundaries. Now I happen to feel that the Kip/Hana relationship, as written in the book, makes this point much better than the Almasy/Katherine one."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (10:21)", "body": "I have kept out of this topic so far because I hadn't seen the movie. However, my better half and I, yesterday, drove 120 miles to Ottawa, watched the movie, and drove 120 miles home again.It's the first time in five years that the two of us have gone to the movie theatre, together , and without kids.End result- We liked the movie. It was everything I had expected to be, and not much more.A couple of surprises- Kevin Whatley, I never knew he was in it, he's always a delight, and the fact that one of the scenes which was touted so much on Canadian T.V. seemed to be cut right out.We both agreed that it was very good, not wonderful, and that neither of us has the remotest interest in seeing it again.Or of reading the book again.Susan's comment about moral banruptcy makes a lot of sense to me."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Dina", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (13:26)", "body": "Cass, well put. I read the novel before seeing the movie and was amazed that I was not offended by the changes. They all worked for me (especially when Kip took Hana to the church). When I was reading the end of the book when Kip runs off and (I thought ) dies off the bridge, I remember thinking: The only redeeming character in the book is going to die!!! Wrong, it was just his baptism (metaphorically speaking). I also don't care for immorality and hope that watching these sorts of films will not m ke me immune to it to the point of acceptance. But, for now, I feel I can appreciate this type of film (as well as Sling Blade and Fargo )for what they are (art) and enjoy them for their beauty, voice, and sometimes, humor. I know where I can draw my personal line of art for arts sake and try to stick with it. No, I will not see The People vs. Larry Flint . Pornography and the first ammendment does not translate to art to me. The emotions in TEP are so incredible. That and the cinematog aphy are what compel me to say this is a good movie."}, {"response": 6, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (09:51)", "body": "]The emotions in TEP are so incredible. That and the cinematography are what compel me to say this is a good movie. Me too. It is very beautifu to look at. And I think its exploration of love is very powerful. I did regret, on reading the book after seeing the movie, that there wasn't more of the Kip/Hana relationship. I thought it was a very positive (anti-morally bankrupt) perspective that too people who are so very different could love each other and gain so much from their relationship."}, {"response": 7, "author": "kate", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (09:53)", "body": "oops. that should be two people"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Megan", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (11:28)", "body": "Have you guys seen Seinfeld last week? One of the topics was TEP. Elaine was the only one who thought 'it sucked'. I thought, finally, even if it's fictional, somebody thinks exactly like me. However, she also got interested in this other movie, which anybody with slightest taste wouldn't be caught dead watching it. I guess the point is anybody who has taste should like TEP. Well, I disagree. I am sorry to say I didn't like anything about the movie but was ashamed to express it out loud especially after all those nominations. (except to my husband who didn't like it at all either) The thing that bothered me the most is that I didn't get warm to any of the characters, and didn't find the story interesting enough. From the first moment where they talk about his name and nationality being unknown, I thought this is what the whole movie is going to be about and I am supposed to wonder what it is. But, I didn't get even remotely curious about what his name was. I absolutely hated the scene where he says his name the first time and thought, 'here I was supposed to hold my breath and wait for his answer, but it didn't happen'. I also didn't care the least bit when she died in that cave. I was not touched when he kept his promise and came back. The whole time I kept thinking, they meant the audience to be touched by this and that but I am not. In other words, I couldn't get into the story or the story or the characters didn't capture me. I also thought that some of the lines in the movie was absolutely out of place and, ridiculous (there, I said it!). The concept of love in this movie is very strange to me. I admit, I don't understand it. I don't know if anybody here has seen any interviews with Ondatje regarding his novel/the movie. I came across one the other day and he was asked \"Why does he love Catherine?\". After a pause of considerable length, he simply said: \"I don't know\". Is this supposed to be meaningful? I guess what I am trying to say is: Overall, it seemed to me that the movie was a pathetically failed attempt to create drama and suspense. It is as if somebody sat down to put all the elements in a book/movie that sells the outcoming product (such as sex, heroism, infidelity, danger, love(?), loyalty, romance, tragedy, drama, suspense, history, war, ...etc.) and tried to form a story around it, without having anything powerful to tell, really. These days, people are proud to say this movie/book has everything in it. (like the above listed elements). The more the better, is the general understanding I am afraid. The problem is when there are so many elements, there is not enough time to portray the characters properly. And when that fails, everything else fails.(except in science fiction maybe). I hope I didn't offend anyone. I dare say I didn't even like CF in it :( Sorry."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (12:25)", "body": "Megan, like Elaine, you're fired!! :-) There is no need to apologize that you didn't \"feel\" anything from this. I am sorry it didn't touch you. One of the things I liked about the book (and subsequently the film) was that it didn't answer every question. You had to think for yourself: What is he trying to say here? This is what I think he/she is feeling. I also read a interview where Ondatje described how he writes, not knowing how a story is going to go. Almost like Michaelangelo described his sculpting: The story is already there, he ust chips away at it until it is complete/exposed."}, {"response": 10, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (13:59)", "body": ""}, {"response": 11, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (14:06)", "body": "I'm not so sure that we were supposed to care about the EP's name or nationality at the end, nor am I sure that it was supposed to be a mystery. I thought it was pretty clear who he was from the beginning (but then I had already read the book). Wasn't part of the point of the movie that such ideas of identity and nationality are not necissarily important? We define ourselves differently. For the EP, his life was more about his love for KC, than about being a Hungarian count, being called Almasy, or having helped the Germans. He didn't care about the war, about the actions of those around him, or even of the repercussions of his own actions. He was narrowly focused on his adventures in the dessert and on KC. Nothing else really mattered to him, and by the end of the movie, they don't matter so much to us. This is shown through Carravagio, who, after learning that the EP is Almasy, no longer really cares. His desire to kill Almasy disappears after hearing the EP's story. Caravagio reevaluates his need to kill Almasy, and spares the EP, almost as if he recognises that the Almasy he wanted to kill and the EP are no longer the same person--thus the identity of the EP no longer matters, he is only what he is, not what he was. I've been rambling a bit, I hope some of that made sense. For the record, I didn't really get into the film either. I would have prefered a Kip/Hana centered story."}, {"response": 12, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (14:29)", "body": "Spot on, Ann"}, {"response": 13, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (15:05)", "body": "I am so glad to see your opinions. Although I enjoyed the movies, I thought maybe I spent too much time watching for CF that I missed something. I also wanted to know more about Hana and Kip."}, {"response": 14, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (16:01)", "body": "Laura, I see you feel strongly about this film, but I'm sure you really didn't intend to express yourself exactly the way you did in your post. Perhaps you would like to re-post your opinion, bearing in mind that we have very young readers, here."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (16:58)", "body": "I had read the book before I saw the movie, and didn't have to wonder who the EP was or what his name was. I think the entire story is not meant to be about the love between Almasy and Katherine, or even the love between Kip and Hannah, but more about the international bonds of the prewar desert group, then its torn apart by the war, and finally the healing after the war, each in their own way. One of the most significant conversations is between Maddox and Almasy when they are talking about \"boundaries - how national boundaries are fiercely and somewhat artifically drawn during war that should not be there at all. The Kip/Hannah relationship shows perfectly that boundaries or international differences don't matter - an allegory for postwar healing. I think I'm rambling - but I'm trying to get my thoughts together while I'm typing!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (21:55)", "body": "Inko you hit it right on. Almasy says over and over that he didn't have any allegiance to any country, just to his maps (and Katherine). His maps were topographal and not for boundries. Can we draw a simile between his maps and Katherine?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (22:07)", "body": "Dina - Can we draw a simile between his maps and Katherine? I'm afraid the only one I can think of is the \"supersternal (sp?) notch\" but that doesn't really work! Maybe the boundaries of her marriage also did not register with Almasy - which is probably more to the point!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Megan", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (00:33)", "body": "Dina, that's exactly how I feel: fired and quite lonely in this subject :) Anybody out there like me?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "winter", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (01:46)", "body": "i have to say, I LOVED TEP. there's a lot of personal interests behind the story, and so it was easier for me to relate to, and therefore enjoy. i'm writing my master's thesis on the construction of nationalist identities, and what consequently happens with ethnic minorities in the process. (also, my mom was a cartographer for many years, and i've grown up with maps my whole life) as for the relation between almasy's maps and katherine, there's a lot to be said about that. in essence, almasy approaches life in terms of human, natural, insitnctive feelings. he is, however, living in a world where conventional rules and regulations, boundaries and socially-constructed norms exist. looking at a map topogrpahically, as opposed to politically, is how he approaches his relationship with katherine: it's the most natural thing for him to wander about the world and do as he pleases, just a he finds that he loves katherine, and desires her. however, some form of authority always manages to stop him and say, \"no, wait a miniute, you're breaking some of our rules here. back off..\" this happens on many occasions: getting involved with a married woman (as opposed to love conquerng all), trying to get transport back to the cave but not having the right papers (helping humans in need is defeated by not having the right documents) and of course,, not flying the appropriate plane in the appropriat part of sky gets him killed (so sky even has boundaries). it's a commentary which applied then and still does now. we live in a world where boundaries overrule our most natural instincts, desires and actions. we see movies in which 'the law' is protected and is victoriously fought for, but it was really neat to see another perspective: where the law only serves as an instrument of oppression and tragedy."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (08:35)", "body": "Megan, don't feel lonely. Despite its beauty, the movie left me quite cold. This may be my own experiences of war situations talking, I don't know. I spent a lot of the time looking for interesting minor characters(I did see Raymond Coultherd in it , didn't I? Mr Darcy discussing wedding anniversaries with Frank Churchill- astonishing!) My main feeling right now is only that it was a shocking waste of Colin's talent.He was really good, really believable as a sensible man pretending to be an idiot.And he deserves recognition for it."}, {"response": 21, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (09:14)", "body": "I don't think I need to censore my thoughts. Although there are young people who post to this board, I should be able to state my thoughts. I did not state anything that was wrong. And to be censored, I cannot tell you how that disappoints me. I don't feel strongly about the movie, but I do feel strongly when people who say they won't see a movie because someone ignorant person automatically says that it is a chic flick . I hope in the future I will not be censored. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 232, "subject": "Austen rakes and wolves and why we love/hate them...", "response_count": 68, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Mar 16, 1997 (10:28)", "body": "Glad you suggested Lady Susan. I have known two Lady Susans in my life, though neither was such an awful mother, just femmes fatales.Watching them in operation was really educational! But they were fun to be around. And the interesting thing was that one of them, at least, wastrying hard to be a moral person-it's almost as if the world would not let her."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (00:11)", "body": "In some ways, Lady Susan reminds me of Scarlett O'Hara...she's a much meaner, more intellectual version. --- An observation: Isn't it interesting how Austen gives us the evil \"villains\" on one side and then the flaky and contemptible rakes on the other? Usually the \"villain\" is a female and the rakes are men. In general, it's the female \"villains\" which are most perniciously dangerous, while the male rakes are merely selfish and/or ineffectual. One offsets the force of the other, maintaining a relatively high level of \"hatability\" without making one character into a colossally-hyperbolic fairy-tale witch or monster (how much fun is it to read Lady Susan in comparison to the other novels for most people?). Without considering lesser characters who take part in the instigation of trouble, a successful pattern of two-pronged troublemaking emerges: S&S Fanny (& Lucy) / Willoughby (Both Fanny and Lucy have different forms of control which affect the happiness of our protagonists, but they become representative of the same evil. Fanny's power is monetary, Lucy's is that of prior claim to Edward - but both function as block's to Elinor's marital happiness. The two of them even form an ironic little anti-Dashwood alliance for a period of time.) P&P Caroline (& Lady Catherine) / Wickham (Lady C.'s actual power is minimal, though Caroline's influence over Bingley re: Jane presents a very real threat) Emma Mrs. E / Frank (both of these characters are pretty mild examples. Mr. Elton might qualify as Mrs. E's junior partner in crime) MP Mrs. Norris / Henry C. (Henry Crawford is a borderline villain...until he goes nuts and runs off with Maria, you can't decide whether he's dangerous or just a jerk. In any case, he has no control over Fanny's life, and so qualifies as an ineffectual bounder for my purposes) The only story in which she gives us a villain and a bounder in one character is Lady Susan. She's such a hyperbolic character that her influence (esp. over Reginald) is very difficult to believe. In NA, as Cheryl pointed out above, there really is no one \"villain\" we'd like to slap around, but there are plenty of players and snobs. And in Persuasion, we have a few \"villains\" of sorts (negotiable, in the forms of Lady Russell, Sir Walter, Elizabeth, and even Mary), and no rakes - circumstance and situat on takes over where the \"bad\" characters lack true malice. These last two seem to have the most believable examples of sociological \"types\" and human nature. They've also got the least concentrated forms of villainy. Spreading out the guilt, rather than concentrating all the evil/annoyance in one or two characters seems to make for the most believeable character dynamics, in my opinion."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (13:11)", "body": "I wonder under which category Mr. Elliot of Persuasion would fall. He is both villain and rake, but certainly not in the tradition of either Fanny Dashwood or Willoughby. He is enough of a villain in his dealings with the Smith's and his machinations to become Anne's husband to qualify. He also is rakish when you consider his relationship with Mrs. Clay, Elizabeth believes him to be pursuing her and then his open pursuit of Anne. He turns out to be ineffectual in both areas, but then don't all of Austen's villains and rakes? The heroine always manages to endure the villain and see through the rake to get her reward. Justice. Maybe that's one of the things I like about her novels...never though about it like that before..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (14:10)", "body": "Mr Elliot fits in the \"Not just the thing for our girls\" category. I guess I am just putty in JA's capable hands. I always dislike them just as I am supposed to. Take Wickham, Churchill, Crawford? Never liked them from minute one. Not any of them. Not even a little teeny bit."}, {"response": 5, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (15:26)", "body": "Amy -- I see that you are a more discerning first-time reader than I! I liked Wickham at first, because he likes (or seems to like) Elizabeth. Frank Churchill bothered me immediately as did Willoughby, but I must confess that I wanted to like Henry Crawford. (I couldn't approve of his conduct, but I really wanted him to be able to deserve Fanny.) On the other hand, I wanted to smack Darcy the first time we meet him, because he doesn't find Elizabeth handsome enough to dance with. What a dunderhead! But, of course, he redeems himself very quickly. Amy, I love \"Not quite the thing for our girls\" -- that's it, to a T."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (20:36)", "body": "I loathed Henry Crawford from the start. Never much liked Mary either for that matter!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (20:49)", "body": "Yep, forgot to mention Mr. Elliot...yeah, he's a rake...becuase he's to ineffectual to be a villain. He's like Crawford in that he's a danger to weak minds...but to Anne, he is nothing, just as Crawford is to Fanny."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (21:10)", "body": "Nobody has yet mentioned John Thorpe or his sister, Isabella! I dislike both of them intensely; both are self-important, small minded, selfish,lying busybodies!!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (21:16)", "body": "Of course, the Thorpes. Who was it who suggested that John Thorpe would be a used car salesman today? And Isabella(e?) seems like a dumber version of Lucy Steele from S&S."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (22:11)", "body": "Rakes have power only if the protagonists let them . Villains have leverage of their own...so what's Mrs. Elton's power? The power of continual annoyance? The leverage of her husband's hatred of Emma? The fact that despite her unpopularity with some she remains a permanent social fixture by merit of her money and her marriage to the vicar? I'm still having trouble with this one, though I do agree that she is a \"villain,\" but in a more muted form than in the other four stories with true villains...perh ps she is on the same level as Lady Russell? Though her actual power is less, her intentions are not so good..."}, {"response": 11, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Mar 17, 1997 (22:38)", "body": "Oh dear! I confess to liking many of JA's rakes and villians. I like the Crawfords, and I like Frank Churchill. These three seem confused and spoiled but not malicious. As part of the generation that came of age in the 60's and thought it could reinvent morality, I cannot condemm those characters who seem to mean well in their confusion and selfishness. I dislike Willoughby because he makes fun of Col. Brandon. I can forgive Marianne for the same meanness because she was so young, but Willoughby was old enough to know better. I dislike Wickham because he tells hurtful lies and is willing to destroy young women in the name of pleasure, convenience, or personal gain. I think the Thorpes are merely boorish and stupid - the kind of people God provides to allow naive young people like the Morelands lose their naivety without losing anything more important. The Eltons and Aunt Norris and Mr. Elliot kind of make my skin crawl. There is this meanness of spirit about them."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (00:11)", "body": "I love Mary, and I refuse to think for a moment that she could be such an irrational bitch as to admit excitement at Tom's illness for the sake of Edmund's gain, nor can I believe that she would say such off-putting, psycho things to Edmund himself. Perhaps she wouldn't have married Edmund becuase of the money and their different views of morality and reverence, but I can't picture her becoming so suddenly repugnant that a man so much in love with her could shut her out so abruptly. Austen abruptly and nbelievably sacrificed Mary's honor because she figured it would be easier to maintain Fanny's insurmountable moral astuteness and strength than to reconcile us to the fact that Fanny would eventually A) be proved wrong about Mary's character and B) accept Henry once Mary and Edmund got hitched. If Austen had allowed herself more options for Fanny's fate (like oldmaiddom), perhaps the story could have worked both ways - Edmund could have married the woman he loved, Fanny would maintain her integrity, and Henry Crawford could remain the jerk he was meant to be. Henry is too cold and reckless in his dealings with others to be lovable, IMHO...He contrives to make both Maria and julia fall in love with him just to create trouble, and then resolves to trifle with Fanny herself ...like Willoughby, his intentions don't start out good, he gets hooked, then his old tricks come back to ruin everything...he's ultimately harmless re: Fanny, but he's a poisonous snake without the helpless appeal of Willoughby. I do love Frank, though...he's selfish, and his grasp of the situation is myopic, but he loves his Jane, and that's really all that matters. A generally sweet, if careless, kid..."}, {"response": 13, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (00:23)", "body": "\"rakes only have power if the protagonists let them..\" I agree-KAli. That reminds me of the famous Elinor Roosevelt quote-no one can make you feel inferior, unless you let them. I never once saw Mr Elliot as a threat to Anne, because she wasn't affected by him. HE had no power over her. Likewise-Fanny and Henry. A individual has the ability to really hurt you if you care about that person, his/her opinion. For me this is best represented by Marianne and Willoughby. Like Mrs J, I too wanted to pluck his heart out!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (02:53)", "body": "Marianne learned, did she not? Fools rush in where angels fear to tread..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (07:05)", "body": "Emma is a really difficulf case, one may thing Harriet Smith(!) is our villian. I mean, she, like Lucy Steel, wants to marry the man our heroine dearly loves, I don't see what harm Mrs. Elton caused to Emma, Emma didn't like Mr. Elton anyway. In a second thought, maybe our villian can be Jane Fairfax, she did not mean to harm Emma, but I think she somehow did, she was better than Emma, and Emma couldn't bear it, and maybe Emma was afraid that, as Mrs. Weston said, Mr. Knightley is in love with Jane. Sorry for the mess, I'm just thinking out loud."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (09:29)", "body": "Ayelet, I see what you mean. In Emma's mind, for the greater part of the book, Jane Fairfax did haunt her. Of course, it was Emma's error in thinking that made it so, but nonetheless our heroine was made -- or made herself -- at uncomfotable in consequence of another character."}, {"response": 17, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (10:25)", "body": "I think Wickham qualifies as a villain rather than a rake. Trying to elope with Georgiana qualifies as villainish rather than merely rakish, and he did have the power, initially, to seriously mislead Elizabeth. Which leads to an interesting question. If it had not been for Wickham, would E have been quite so prejudiced about D? Would she have seen his real qualities if her initial impressions had not been so clearly confirmed in her mind by Wickham?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (11:02)", "body": "I think you are right, Kate. Lizzy was certainly disposed to find Darcy offensive, but he might have been able to rehabilitate himself in her eyes had not Wickham said, \"Your instincts are right.\" Everybody likes to hear that."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (13:53)", "body": "Kali wrote: \"As part of the generation that came of age in the 60's and thought it could reinvent morality, I cannot condemm those characters who seem to mean well in their confusion and selfishness. \" That seems like a very good clue for why Clinton is doing so well in opinion polls. (Sorry for the politics, I couldn't help myself.)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (17:03)", "body": "Ann: there are lots of us out there!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "Kate wrote: If it had not been for Wickham, would E have been quite so prejudiced about D? Would she have seen his real qualities if her initial impressions had not been so clearly confirmed in her mind by Wickham? I agree Kate. Lizzie didn't like his behaviour at the Meryton Ball, but I think that eventually she could have forgiven him for that (put it down to a bad day, bad mood, bad dinner, etc.)if Wickham hadn't confirmed all her prejudices. And that made her feel even more clever than before - there's nothing to satisfying as finding out that you've been right all along!!;-) Even when you are totally wrong!!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (18:14)", "body": "Kate: Still, Elizabeth WAS quick to believe Wickham, without knowing who he was (as Amy said, everyone wants to hear what they want to hear)...she allowed him to sway her mind, just as Georgiana (who no doubt knew that her beloved and wise brother had reservations about Wickham's situation) allowed him to persuade her to elope with him (true, she was young and knew not what she was doing, but you'd think that she and her brother, who are probably both to blame for that incident, would have communicated w ll enough on a regular basis to avert such a catastrophe). It's the same story with Lydia...she puts herself in his hands ( and probably has as good a married life with him as she'd have with anyone of her own choosing!). Wickham couldn't have made so much trouble if people weren't so quick to trust him. Back to Elizabeth and Wickham, the fact still remains that Darcy has successfully managed to disattach Bingley from Jane. If Lizzy hadn't learned this from the Col., she would probably have linked the snobby Darcy with the dirty dealings of Caroline and Mrs. Hurst, whose roles in the Jane-Bingley affair she'd long suspected. In short, Elizabeth was determined to dislike Mr. Darcy - for good reason - from the start of their acquaintance."}, {"response": 23, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (21:21)", "body": "I cannot condemm those characters who seem to mean well in their confusion and selfishness But, do selfish people really mean well? I mean, they often say that they mean well, but that only allows them to avoid guilt and responsibility for their selfish actions. [See for example, Caroline Bingley's comment to Elizabeth at the Netherfield ball, \"Excuse my interference. -- It was kindly meant.\" Ha!!] The rakes and wolves are all selfish (and self-centered), and that is why I generally do not like them. The heroes, on the other hand, are generally not selfish. They are good, kind men, and therefore deserve Jane Austen's heroines."}, {"response": 24, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "... seem to mean well ... no, I do not think anyone has ever thought Caroline meant well. But I do not see jealosy or meanness of spirit in the Crawfords or Frank Churchhill. Only a failure to recognize and separate their selfish ends from their general approach to life. None of them have gotten past the 'if I want it, it must be good' stage of human development. They rationalize anything. The worst thing any of them did deliberately was Henry Crawford's exposing the shallowness of Maria Bertrand's affection for Mr. Rushworth (the same thing Capt Tilney did in NA) and the competitiveness of Maria's and Julia's relationship. The rest of it was more muddled thinking. I struggle with the Crawfords and Fanny and Edmund everytime I read MP. Sometimes the Crawfords sparkle bright for me while poor F&E seem dull and lacking in imagination. Other times, the Crawfords look only vain and dangerous, and only Fanny seems to be clear eyed."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (23:00)", "body": "] I struggle with the Crawfords and Fanny and Edmund everytime I read MP. Sometimes the Crawfords sparkle bright for me while poor F&E seem dull and lacking in imagination. Other times, the Crawfords look only vain and dangerous, and only Fanny seems to be clear eyed. __ We've talked about this many times, but it always amazes me how the books change with what you bring to them in different stages of your life."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (00:36)", "body": "I can appreciate both Fanny's clear-sightedness and Mary's lovely personality...and I think both of them could have done better than Edmund. Am I weird?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (00:40)", "body": "Your not wierd. Edmund isn't much of a character."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (00:53)", "body": "Kathleen - Loved your Darcy dunderhead comment; those were my exact initial sentiments about the man. I'm still considering how to classify villians in Emma (rakes yes but villians are hard). Post more later."}, {"response": 29, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (05:46)", "body": "I agree that selfish people aren't necessarily mean-spirited, but the effects they have on others can be much the same. Henry Crawford may only expose Maria's and Julia's faults, but the effects are not much different than if he had intended to be cruel. A less selfish person might try to bring out the best in others, not the worst. Even Emma is selfish or at least very self-centered throughout most of her novel. She is kind to her father, loves her friends, and even does charitable works for the poor, but she still seems to have a serious \"I\" problem. And, Emma does cause pain to others. She could have ruined Harriet's future with her ideas about whom to marry. And she definitely caused pain for Jane Fairfax with the Dixon idea -- even if she did not intend to, Emma (& Frank) were clearly causing discomfort for Jane. The proposal, when Emma decides to risk being hurt by befriending Mr Knightley, is the first time she really deserves him (at a point when she thinks she has lost him). She even reasons to herself that perhaps she can help him decide to marry Harriet; every time I reread this part it makes me cheer for Emma. She has finally grown up! With most of the other selfish characters, however, we do not see them grow up. They regret their actions only if it causes themselves to lose something or someone. Maybe that's why I don't really ever like them, they don't really learn."}, {"response": 30, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (07:43)", "body": "Perhaps we're having trouble identifying villains in Jane Austen's novels because there really aren't any. As in life, where we rarely (thank God) run into truly malevolent people, so it is in life according to Jane. The obstacles her characters face are frequently of their own device or caused by unthinking or selfish actions of others rather than the result of conscious evil-doing."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (10:59)", "body": "You're right, Myretta, in that nobody's that bad (except LS!)...but there are people with power who won't hesitate to make our protagonists' lives miderable, for whatever reason. As far as our trouble identifying Mrs. Elton's power, perhaps Kathleen is right in identifying Emma's own worst enemy - herself! SHe causes trouble where there shouldn't be any!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (12:56)", "body": "Give Emma credit, though, she recognizes that she's been a blind fool. I agree-nobody's really that bad in Austen-weak(like Edmund-yes MAry and FAnyy could have done a lot better. I still cringe at the proposal scene.) silly, vain, pompous(Sir Walter, LAdy Catherine), unprincipled/selfish(Mr Elliot, Wickham, Willoughby-Poor MArianne she did suffer most cruelly. And yes she learned the hard way, but even we Mariannes have to grow up)and generally irritating, full of their own misguided sense of importance( e: Mr and Mrs E). But, as for pure evil(Aunt Norris is close though)-read Henry James-Madmae Merle in Portrait. That's evil. She deliberatley plots to manipulate/destroy Isabel's life for her own selfish ends."}, {"response": 33, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (17:01)", "body": "The older I get, the less of a catch Edmund seems to be for any one. But Fanny adores him and will make him a good wife. And it is unlikely that she ever could have loved anyone else as much. She deserves him because she wnats him so much. Sometimes Henry Crawford looks as bad to me as he does to Fanny. Other times, he reminds me so much of people I have known and loved - full of energy and charm and so cynical that they have to learn everything the hard way. I am thankful to live in a society where it is possible to learn from one's mistakes and reshape one's life. Some of my favorite people would have been condeemed, by the errors of their youth, to live out their lives in small isolated country houses or gratefully giving \"good dinner \" to anyone who would associate with them."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (00:07)", "body": "I am thankful to live in a society where it is possible to learn from one's mistakes and reshape one's life. AMEN, Katy -- I'm afraid I might have been giving \"good dinner\" myself..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:44)", "body": "I agree with Myretta, and with Kathleen. I think what defines the baddies, and they are only everyday baddies, is their varying degrees of unawareness, and their overt and apalling selfishness. The goodies are not selfless, they look after their own needs, but they also are aware of and take care of the people around them."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:09)", "body": "The goodies are not selfless, they look after their own needs, but they also are aware of and take care of the people around them. Eventually they get a clue about doing right by deserving others...that's what makes them \"good.\" I once said that the remarkable characters stand apart because they come to understand their iniquities, and attempt to reform themselves: Lizzy, Darcy, Emma, Marianne - even Anne, who reevaluates past decisions - are forced to acknowledge their own harmful weaknesses. And I agree that nothing in Austen is cut-and-dried...however, I do contend that though it be madness, yet there be method in it...there seems to be a bit of a pattern (perhaps logic is a better term) which rules the nature and level of villainy...the least believeable story (LS) has one truly evil villain, and the most believeable (characterwise) have a very diffuse sort of obstructionist antagonism. In the middle, we got a dichotomous sort of antagonism, with a powerful (or powerfully annoying concentration of antagonism on one side, and a siren-like but functionally blameless concentration of rakish distraction on the other."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "The goodies are not selfless, they look after their own needs, but they also are aware of and take care of the people around them. Eventually they get a clue about doing right by deserving others...that's what makes them \"good.\" I once said that the remarkable characters stand apart because they come to understand their iniquities, and attempt to reform themselves: Lizzy, Darcy, Emma, Marianne - even Anne, who reevaluates past decisions - are forced to acknowledge their own harmful weaknesses. And I agree that nothing in Austen is cut-and-dried...however, I do contend that though it be madness, yet there be method in it...there seems to be a bit of a pattern (perhaps logic is a better term) which rules the nature and level of villainy...the least believeable story (LS) has one truly evil villain, and the most believeable (characterwise) have a very diffuse sort of obstructionist antagonism. In the middle, we got a dichotomous sort of antagonism, with a powerful (or powerfully annoying concentration of antagonism on one side, and a siren-like but functionally blameless concentration of rakish distraction on the other."}, {"response": 38, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:35)", "body": "Kathleen -- the comparison of John Thorpe to a used-car salesman was made on Austen-L and is quoted on my jokes page http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/austt10j.html"}, {"response": 39, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:43)", "body": "Henry -- thank you. I knew I had seen it somewhere close to home, as it were. I thought it might have been Austen-L, but I suspect I saw it on your jokes page first. In future I will try to cite a reference. :-)"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (04:21)", "body": "If life was full of only 'goodies\" - wouldn't it be a boring place indeed. My passion goes out to Willoughby, not as villian or as Kali would put it - a 'rake' He brought out Marianne's character, full of vibrance for life, daring to love and displaying it with such 'unacceptable' behaviour and careless of the consequence. That would be the height to soar to before the bitterness of being 'betrayed' and I would recommend a dose of Willoughby in one's life to bring them out of innocence into reality. From hindsight, I wouldn't be surprised if Marianne would always cherish the time with Willoughby inspite of the mellowed affections of Col. Brandon. Shoot me any ne?"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (04:31)", "body": "\" But Fanny adores him and will make him a good wife...She deserves him because she wants him so much.\" Katy, isn't it a shame that Fanny had grown to be more street-smart than Edmund . He only provided her with the sound principles and she had the 'advantage' of being brought up poorly in Portsmouth. I wonder if they will be happily married. She will be, but he did fall a little to much for Mary and was willing to compromise his principles for her ways, if only to a limit. But once there's a start to such a compromise, wouldn't or couldn't he then later rationalise why Mary spoke of Henry's affairs as sh did. I think Mary Crawford is superb and would have liven him up. Fanny and Edmund would be too boring together."}, {"response": 42, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (08:21)", "body": "Actually, I can imagine good things for Fanny and Edmund. Fanny has finally been pulled out of the shadows of neglect and insecurity and Aunt Norris. She has a home with the man she loves. Sir Thomas adores her and pays a lot of positive attention to her - something she has never know except from Edmund. Susan is there to provide an active female friendship. A few years later, when she and Edmund settle into the Parsonage at Mansfield with several children, we might not even recognize her."}, {"response": 43, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (18:25)", "body": ".... I would recommend a dose of Willoughby in one's life to bring them out of innocence into reality .... I always thought every young woman should be entitled to one two-week vacation with the hunk of her choice sometime during her 20's. this shall not count! her husband or boyfriend (should she have one at the time) cannot deprive her of it or hold it against her later. her virginity status does not change nor does her chasity. this is merely a ritual of young womanhood which allows every young woman to 'get it out of her system'. I could be convinced that two weeks was not enough. two months perhaps!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (19:16)", "body": "But, Katy, Jeremy would get terribly tired! ;-)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (20:08)", "body": "OH CINDY!! I'm sure the MAN has incredible stamina! I want to be on fire like Juliet and Guinevere! And Jeremy's just the man to do it. If my heart is going to broken, it should be by such a Jeremy. I will settle for nothing less!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (20:18)", "body": "Cass darling...come to Pemberley?"}, {"response": 47, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:35)", "body": "Good idea, Katy...when are you going to arrange my two months?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (02:52)", "body": "Katy, I am extremely fond of your suggestion, but why limit it to our 20's?"}, {"response": 49, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (08:02)", "body": "Susan, this is to be a rite of passage, hence appropriate to an age group. naturally for those of us already over past our twenties when the tradition emerges, a special clause entitling us to a catch-up would have to be written. (But please give me back the drives of a 20-something for the trip!!!)"}, {"response": 50, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:12)", "body": "I am certainly glad we are extending this for those of us past our 20s! \"hunk of our choice\"...hmmmm, whom to choose, whom to choose.... ;-)"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "I have a question, and I hope I'm getting the order of things right here. Would Wickham have been able to have any revenge on Darcy, if the Bennets were'nt so tied to doing what was propper for Lydia? By just taking her to Gretna Green, he only shamed the Bennets, as Darcy had no connection at that time. He had to know that the Bennets were poor, and Lydia was not a good prospect. Until they were found, by Darcy, and forced to marry, then Darcy had to pay all the debts, his commission, etc. So he got some revenge on Darcy, but Darcy brought it all about, by saving the respectability of Lizzy's family. Do you think Wickham thought Darcy's connection was more concrete earlier on, so that is why he pursued Lydia? I don't know if this is the right place for this, but I couldn't find another topic close to it."}, {"response": 52, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:52)", "body": "IMHO -- I don't think that Wickham knew anything about Darcy's attraction to Lizzie or intended to elope with Lydia to gain any kind of profit from Mr. Bennett. He needed to hide out from his creditors -- some guy with a crooked nose named \"Bruno\" was probably after him ;-) Figured that it would be nice to have some little \"cream puff\" with him to pass the time, thus Lydia was a good choice. One point that we never seem to bring up here, is that, according to the book -- Mr. Darcy first tries unsuccessf lly to convince Lydia to let him take her home. He makes sure that the marriage takes place only because she refuses."}, {"response": 53, "author": "kate", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (12:10)", "body": "I agree Candace. Wickham had no thought that eloping with Lydia would in any way affect Darcy. Wickham also quite clearly did not intend to marry Lydia when he took her with him, whatever she thought. Even when Darcy turns up he quite clearly is still interested in the possibility of marrying another rich woman for her money."}, {"response": 54, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:00)", "body": "It appears that Wickham's interest in Elizabeth faded when the Bennet-Bingley connection seemed to fade and his interest in Lydia began as the Bennet-Darcy connection began to glimmer in the skies. The man either has good spies or incredible timing."}, {"response": 55, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:36)", "body": "I can't give Wickham credit for good intuition or superior awareness...he's kind of a comic character because he's always at the wrong place at the wrong time...myopically selfish, creating trouble all around him. The Georgiana affair is the only thing I can charge him with planning for the specific purpose of revenge..."}, {"response": 56, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:03)", "body": "Kali, I understand what you mean about a pattern to these things. I'm thinking on it, but don't hold your breathe!"}, {"response": 57, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:43)", "body": "Why would Wickham need to revenge himself on Darcy at all? Darcy gave him the cash to bail out of the living. So he wanted the living back later but (if I recall) it was already given to someone else.Wickham must have been a really 'small' man to think that spreading a rumour of Darcy here and abouts, would gain him some money from Darcy. Of course he could have married Miss Darcy. And there Kali, yes, would have been revenge..but for what possible motive? I mean, the man could have just moved on with his deceptive-style of life, being as charming as he was, and marry someone else for the money. Am I going round in circles and missing the point to the 'revenge'?"}, {"response": 58, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:43)", "body": "Why would Wickham need to avenge himself on Darcy at all? Darcy gave him the cash to bail out of the living. So he wanted the living back later but (if I recall) it was already given to someone else.Wickham must have been a really 'small' man to think that spreading a rumour of Darcy here and abouts, would gain him some money from Darcy. Of course he could have married Miss Darcy. And there Kali, yes, would have been revenge..but for what possible motive? I mean, the man could have just moved on with is deceptive-style of life, being as charming as he was, and marry someone else for the money. Am I going round in circles and missing the point to the 'revenge'?"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:43)", "body": "Opps.."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (22:06)", "body": "Wickham would want revenge for Darcy breaking he and Georgianna up-as his future would have been set with her money!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (22:35)", "body": "\"Wickham would want revenge for Darcy breaking he and Georgianna up-as his future would have been set with her money!\" Yes, he had 30,000 reasons for revenge."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:21)", "body": "And isn't it somewhat ironic that poor Darcy ended up with Wickham as a brother-in-law anyway?"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (02:23)", "body": "You have jolted back the memory, 30,000 would be a fortune huh?? But wouldn't Wickham have been surprised that Darcy would take such an interest in making sure he and Lydia would marry. It would be like, why is Darcy butting in?? He has no connection to the Bennets. He must have suspected something was up between one of the Bennet girls and Darcy. And yet Wickham still mentioned to Lizzy (as his sister in law) how disadvantaged he was by Darcy's withholding the living Is this man just as 'male' as Colonel Fitzwilliam, to not even suspect would be inconceivable?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (13:06)", "body": "He probably suspected that there was more to it than it seemed, but I doubt he had any idea what that might be. But I am sure the last thing Darcy would have wanted to do was give Wickham any idea of the truth. Wickham would have used that to extort even more from him."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (18:08)", "body": "Most certainly, Ann...and he probably had little inclination to push and find out, weak as he was...his most immediate problems (debt, &c.) were going to be solved for what probably seemed like a small inconvenience at the time (marrying Lydia, which he probably came to regret). Revenge for the Georgiana affair, and the judgemental condemnation from Darcy which undoubtedly sweetened the initial allure of Georgiana's 30K, was probably the last thing on his mind. It seems that Wickham has always had little regard for anything but the selfish gratification of the present..."}, {"response": 66, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:10)", "body": "So do we then agree that Wickham and Lydia's marriage would not last for very long after? Or would Wickham continue to hold onto Lydia so that he could always remain a brother-in-law to Darcy?"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (06:50)", "body": "After three years, Wickham had spent the 3.000 \ufffd on a life of idleness and dissipation. He then tried again to have the living at Kympton, which Darcy of course refused to give him, though Wickham seems to have repeated his request several times and abused Darcy violently to anyone who cared to listen... that it was meant for him, that Darcy had noone else to provide for..( a bit like poor deceived Lizzie later.)Hence the need for revenge!"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (08:44)", "body": "Ann,that particular motive for revenge puts Mr Wickham's very low in my opinion. I cannot even rationalise it, that he knew he was buying himself out of the family living and then going back and asking for it. Is he for real? Even the fact that Darcy had no one to provide for doesn't mean it would or should be his. Here's a thought, at the end of the book, since Lady Catherine would be so out of humour with anyone in connection with the Bennets, Mr Collins and Charlotte move to Derbyshire too. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 237, "subject": "Respect, Esteem & Gratitude", "response_count": 21, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (11:55)", "body": "Perhaps gratitude or some such emotion was a necessary part of this love. Possibly because of the financial condition of the Bennet family at this time, more than any gracious behavior on the part of Darcy. Respect is necessary no matter what. Can one be esteemed and loved at the same time? Eliz. is searching for a reason to marry Darcy. She forces respect, esteem and gratitude together to forge herself a love of sorts. The passions, however, somehow seem lacking. I think Ms Bronte has something to say about that."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (12:50)", "body": "Carl - I must differ concerning your \"Eliz. is searching for a reason to marry Darcy.\" Indeed, she has no trouble refusing him the first time he proposes, and has no real reason to believe he will renew his addresses, especially after the whole Lydia affair. We see, however, that she has become interested in Darcy *before* she learns of his role in getting Lydia married, and begins to worry that he thinks ill of her. I don't believe that Charlotte Lucas, who is forced into forging a love of sorts for Mr. Collins, would have exhibited this behavior. I see these two marriages as forming a contrast between forced and genuine esteem and love. And as for passions, I think Austen gives us hints all along as to the passionate nature of Lizzy..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (13:58)", "body": "I think Carl may have stumbled on an important word: respect. I think that Lizzy discovers in Derbyshire that Darcy has learned to respect her--which was certainly lacking in his first proposal. From his repect for her, comes her gratitued for him."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cleo", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (14:12)", "body": "I remember catching this line the third (or fourth) time I read the book. In the version this was noted so I checked the notes. I do not have my book on me at this time as I have lent it to a friend so I'm going on memory here... The notation was derived from a book popular in JA's time. The author, a man, wrote that gratitude is the original foundation of a woman's affections (love) for a man. Gratitude because he chooses/wants/desires her above all other women. This evolves into esteem and ultimatel into love. My inital response was one of repulsion: GRATEFUL?!?!? Grateful for the interest expressed by or the love of a man??? The horror. The horror. My second reation, was one of introspection. Indeed, the night I met my husband I was with my friend (the one with my book) and as she was getting married two weeks later my sole objectives that night were to get her drunk and get her home. Four of us were out that night - all blondes, all drinking champagne. A receipe for attention, I admit, but me ting men was not on the adjenda as I had just had 9 teeth pulled, many gaps in my smile and a full set of braces. With braces & a toothless smile at 28 I believed that because some/most/many men are so shallow that I would not have a date until the braces came off at age 30. A gentleman, however, introduced himself. Did I feel gratitude? Yes. Gratitude that of all the ladies with full smiles in the bar he chose me. I esteemed him largely due to his deep character which, in an age that emphasizes perfect bodies and perfect smiles, prefers the \"aura\" (his word, nor mine). I fell in love with him. We married last November. So, yes, if I am to be honest with myself, gratitude was a foundation. A skeptic, like Lizzie (a man who loved her despite her position in life could not be sensible), I was slow to trust and thus love this genuine person. By the way, the friend who has my book just gave birth to her first last week, so I doubt I will see the book soon. I also lent my videos to a disadvantaged soul who had not yet had the pure pleasure of viewing this film. I thought I could survive, or at leat that I would have more time on my hands, instead, I find myself suffering from withdrawl & I may have to purchase another copy of the novel! But I digress, I although I am not fully comfortable wit the idea of being grateful, in my case I must own i as truth. Cleo"}, {"response": 5, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (17:10)", "body": "How can we ever name all the emotions which constitute \"love\"? I think Elizabeth (as portrayed by Jane Austen, of course) is trying to understand her feelings for Darcy as they change over the period covered by the novel. Respect and esteem had come to her as she realized her prejudices were wrong. Gratitude also exists -- \"not merely for haveing once loved her, but for loving her still well enough, to firgive all the petulance and acrimony of her manner in rejecting him.\" Not gratitude for his helping her family, but for treating her so respectfully when they meet again. Maybe one of the problems we have with the word gratitude is an implied sense of obligation. But gratitude does not mean being in debt or owing the other person. It means being thankful or pleased. Elizabeth is thankful and pleased with Darcy's behavior toward her and the Gardiners when they meet at Pemberley & Lambton. Gratitude for someone loving/liking you does not cause love. In fact, if the other person is not someone you do not like then their affection for you can feel a bit weird. Respect and esteem, it seems to me, would be necessary for a solid love to grow. Gratitude probably enters into more of our relationships than we realize -- I know that I am grateful when my friends put up with my out-of-temper moments!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (17:13)", "body": "DTBT strikes again. In my next to last paragraph, I meant to say \"if the other person is someone you do not like\" -- nothing like no double negatives neither, NO?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "cat", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (18:13)", "body": "I am not sure about this gratitude thing. I mean yes I would expect Lizzy to be grateful that Darcy still loved her despite everything that had happened and went through a drastic change for her, and then actually proposed a second time which shows true love, but I don't think it was or should be an asset to the love they shared."}, {"response": 8, "author": "cat", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (18:17)", "body": "P.S. Cleo, Congrats on the marriage, and your friends new motherhood!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (20:04)", "body": "It seems to me that true gratitude in a relationship arises mainly as a response. We may feel grateful (or be pleased) that our partner is talented or has easy social graces; but Lizzy feels a deeper sort of gratitude because she is responding to Darcy's forgiveness. Darcy is not holding a grudge because of her unjust accusations. She senses this most strongly at Pemberley. Within a single hour, she glimpses Darcy's true character through the housemaid's eyes, and then directly experiences his forgiveness when, after his surprising arrival, Darcy pays her unexpected courtesy and attention. But Darcy feels just as grateful toward Lizzy. Grateful, first of all, for teaching him a proper lesson in humility, but more importantly: grateful for her forgiveness. Within half an hour of that same meeting, he tested her by requesting the honor of introducing his sister. Her acceptance proved to Darcy that she had forgiven him. Darcy later admitted this to Lizzy after she accepted his second proposal: \"'My object then,' replied Darcy, 'was to shew you, by every civility in my power, that I was not so mean as to resent the past; and I hoped to obtain your forgiveness, to lessen your ill opinion, by letting you see that your reproofs had been attended to. How soon any other wishes introduced themselves I can hardly tell, but I believe in about half an hour after I had seen you.'\" Darcy feels strongly that he had been more in the wrong than she: \"Your retrospections must be so totally void of reproach, that the contentment arising from them is not of philosophy, but, what is much better, of innocence. But with me, it is not so.\" That both Darcy and Lizzy could forgive the other, and openly acknowledge gratitude for the other's acceptance, speaks of a mature healthy relationship that has bright prospects indeed. So respect, esteem and gratitude are clearly very important to a relationship; but I would add one more: forgiveness."}, {"response": 10, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (21:26)", "body": "Bill -- marvelously written. Thank you for adding Darcy's gratitude to our discussion; we seemed to have focused almost entirely on Elizabeth's. And yes, forgiveness is important in all relationships, most important indeed."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (22:23)", "body": "\"Your retrospections must be so totally void of reproach, that the contentment arising from them is not of philosophy, but, what is much better, of innocence . But with me, it is not so.\" My copy of P&P has the word ignorance in place of innocence, and it has always given me problems. I like innocence much better. Ignorance didn't make much sense and sounded like too much of an insult in the middle of a very tender scene."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (22:48)", "body": "Ann, in my Norton's critical edition the words in the text are \"of ignorance\" with a footnote #. The footnote states: \"In Cassandra Austen's copy of the novel, she changed \"ignorance\" to \"innocence\" (Oxford edition 2.397), so I presume it depends on which edition one has. I also prefer innocence to ignorance, although I never took ignorance as an insult--more in the way one says \"you didn't have all the facts\"."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Tue, Mar 18, 1997 (23:15)", "body": "Well written, Bill. You have given me much food for thought and clarified Darcy's statement for me. I do not think I have ever apprehended it as clearly as I do now (my edition uses 'ignorance'). Thank-you!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (01:02)", "body": "Kathleen and Bill thanks for your comments. I think you both articulated the importance of gratitude (and love, respect, etc) in a loving, healthy relationship."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (01:25)", "body": "There's nothing wrong with gratitude, too many people now feel that being loved is their \"right.\" It's not, it has to be earned. I am grateful/thankful every day for the people in my life whom I love, and who love me."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Cleo", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (08:07)", "body": "To Bill's assertation that a helthy relationship/marriage requires respect, esteem, gratitude and forgiveness, please let me add communication and romance. My mom always maintained that romance & love are two seperate entities in a relationship. I must say I agree with her. It is too easy to \"stop running once you've caught the bus\" that it takes a conscious effort to haul out the candles, chill the wine and dim the lights on a Friday night at home over a plate of meatloaf & mashed. With respect to Cheryl's point on love not being a \"right\", and that she is \"grateful\" every day...I agree...I have the love of good friends, family and a husband, and I thank God for each of them. I am \"grateful\" that despite my faults, they continue to respect me, esteem me & love me."}, {"response": 17, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 19, 1997 (11:06)", "body": "Cheryl, maybe that's part of our larger society, where nothing is earned and everything is a \"right.\" As far as P&P -- It must have been quite a surprise to Lizzy to find Darcy so gracious upon their meeting at Pemberley in light of her unjust accusations. She had no idea her \"reproofs had been attended to\" in the intervening months since Hunsford, so this mut have been a real shocker!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (05:34)", "body": "Bill that was beautifully expressed. Carl, not sure if you're viewed P&P1, where Lizzy's transformation of disgust of Darcy to one of appreciation and respect is wonderfully dramatised. She literally explains the progress in that adaptation. Whereas in P&P2, it would come across as having seen his 'grounds' at Pembermy. Though this too is not too bad a thought. Considering only Darcy has only ever been a figure to be seen in public places or at the Netherfield, there is no insight into his own person there. But when you see the place he lives in, have lived at all his life, it gives credulence to his 'pride' and 'airs'. He has tremendous responsibility in his estate to both business and the people that reside there. He becomes a real person to her at that point. It's like seeing your boyfriend/girlfriend's room for the first time, it gives insight into their lives."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (17:45)", "body": "Serena, I agree with you about the importance of Lizzy's seeing Darcy at his home. Lionel Trilling defined snobbery as \"pride of position without pride of function,\" and that's the difference between the Darcy we see among strangers and the Darcy we see at home. When Lizzy gets a glimpse of him as landlord, master and brother, and sees how well he handles his responsibilities, she begins to understand why he takes himself so seriously. But I think it's his love and concern for Georgiana that really bowls Lizzy over and makes her fall in love. Darcy is more of a father than a brother to Georgiana, and I know that whenever I see a man behaving like a good father to a child--especially a girl--it conquers me as nothing else can. I think that's what happened to Lizzy."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (18:25)", "body": "Does anyone else feel that perhaps P&P1 captured more of the 'respect, esteem and gratitude\" than P&P2?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (02:26)", "body": "RE: 237:9 - Well said, Bill! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 239, "subject": "Happy Birthday", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (17:57)", "body": "The Spring has a birthday today. Three years old now. To this day. The first day of Spring."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "Really, Terry? I had not known it has been around so long. Are you planning any sort of pagan ritual?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (18:48)", "body": "Spring has sprung, the grass has riz, wonder where the flowers is -- Happy Birthday Spring in the Spring!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "Should we have a ritual in the chat room tonight?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Dina", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (11:32)", "body": "Happy Birthday!! To you and too my Dad (I am sure he will be checking in here to see if I posted it....)."}, {"response": 6, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (22:30)", "body": "Happy birthday - Dina's Dad! - thanks for stopping in!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (04:48)", "body": "Happy B'day and have many. many more. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 24, "subject": "Duckface and Lady Catherine", "response_count": 108, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (09:53)", "body": "What do you know - it popped right up on the screen - but it looks so lonely with a \"0\" by my name. So here is an question: Who makes your blood boil the hottest - Caroline or Lady Catherine?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (13:00)", "body": "I vote for Caroline Bingley, because she doesn't even have family \"history\" to excuse her snobbish behavior. After, their fortune was acquired in trade, so who is she to look down her nose at the Bennets' relations. As for being an accomplished woman, she doesn't fool anyone w/ her notions of what that means -- she's only spouting off on the things she (thinks she does) well. Mind you, I do not like her Ladyship, either, but she has somewhat more of an excuse for her bad behavior."}, {"response": 3, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (13:18)", "body": "I guess Caroline gets my vote too. Lady Catherine actually seems a bit stupid to me which gives her an additional excuse for her poor behavior. Caroline seems to be rather clever -- or is she merely devious?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Saman", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (19:33)", "body": "Add my vote for Duckface. Lady C at least has some justification for her behaviour (wouldn't *you* be waspish if constantly subjected to Mr Collins and his delicate compliments?). Lady Catherine is a bitter old woman, whereas Miss Bingley is a bitter *young* woman - most unattractive. I love Anna Chancellor's acting though - especially at Lucas Lodge with the \"fine eyes\" scene - she glances at Darcy with as much of the whites of her eyes showing as possible - classic! Saman"}, {"response": 5, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (20:53)", "body": "I am fascinated with all JA's shrews - Mrs. Elton, Mrs. Norris, MIss Biongley, Lady Catherine. Maybe it is knowing that while they are throwing their weight around during most of the novel, they will get theirs in the final chapter."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (21:36)", "body": "How about Mary Musgrove. Oh Lord she drives me nuts."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (21:38)", "body": "I also vote for Caroline Bingley - most definitely. I have always thought she had no excuse to look down at the Bennets or Sir William Lucas since her money was acquired in the same way. Lady C. is annoying, but she has some excuse; she is the daughter of an Earl, was probably always snobbish, and is a bitter old woman who has nothing better to do than interfere in other people's business. I don't think she would sit down an read a good book (Jane Austen, maybe?). On second thoughts, neither would Duckfa e - remember she only chose the book at Netherfield because it was the second volume of the one Darcy was reading and she threw it down in boredom pretty quickly. By the way I saw Anna Chancellor in a Poirot mystery last night. She looked really pretty and had very blue eyes. I thought that they were brown in P&P2. I must admit she is a very good actress - maybe that's why we all love to hate her in P&P."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sun, Nov 24, 1996 (22:31)", "body": "]She looked really pretty and had very blue eyes. I thought that they were brown in P&P2. *trivia warning* they blue in the photos I've seen as well. Likewise Mr B and Mr C. Ehle's eyes in photos are hazel; all-in-all, I get the impression that my commercial tapes have a distinct brown overlay. I only saw 2 episodes televised, but as shown here they were closer in colour to the photos"}, {"response": 9, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Nov 25, 1996 (00:53)", "body": "I have heard reports that on various occasions in various film roles some performers have used colored contact lenses to appear to have some other eye color, however no such report has been circculated about P&P to my knowledge."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Nov 25, 1996 (02:04)", "body": "I should have been more clear - the photos I'm referring to are in the Making of P&P and the BBC hardback of P&P with the actors 'in character' - that's why I'm assuming the colour variation is arising in the production of the commercial video."}, {"response": 11, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Mon, Nov 25, 1996 (03:01)", "body": "So should I (have been more clear) I was referring to the comment somewhere above that someone saw Anna Chancellor with blue eyes, though they were brown in P&P."}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Nov 25, 1996 (17:23)", "body": "I agree with you all -- Caroline Bingley is more odious than Lady Catherine, perhaps because she has designs on Darcy, and we all want him to end up with Lizzy!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Nov 25, 1996 (23:12)", "body": "The confrontation between E. and Lady C at Longborn - could you have been that quick on your feet at age 20 in that situation? Not me. I would have cried and promised anything, just to get her to shut-up."}, {"response": 14, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Nov 25, 1996 (23:13)", "body": "The confrontation between E. and Lady C at Longborn - could you have been that quick on your feet at age 20 in that situation? Not me. I would have cried and promised anything, just to get her to shut-up."}, {"response": 15, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (11:55)", "body": "I thought that Elizabeth handled herself with great aplomb during that whole incident. In fact, the first time this scene took on life for me was in P&P2; in the 1940 version, it was played strictly for laughs; and in P&P1, it was very flat. I really felt the menace in Lady C. in this one!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (12:56)", "body": "Amy2, yes, me too. Lady Catherine really had some weight behind her malelovence in P&P2. And E. seemed to be experiencing real emotions of indignation and pain over the lady's insults and criticisms."}, {"response": 17, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (13:02)", "body": "I was so disappointed when I saw what they did with lady Catherine in the 1940's version."}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (18:41)", "body": "I really thought that the confrontation between Lady C. & Elizabeth was one of the most powerful scenes in the production. Ehle outdid herself once again!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Cleo", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (16:25)", "body": "Darcy's first proposal and Lady C's confrontation. I could(and have) watched these scenes over & over. Both were superbly acted by all parties, however, Ehle was amazing. Remaining composed in both situations when personally, I would have severley lost it!!!! Cleo"}, {"response": 20, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (17:33)", "body": "Edited from the \"Propose new threads here\" topic--- From: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:33) * 3 lines I'd like to propose we discuss Caroline Bingley's intense jealousy of Lizzy, and how almost everything she does merely increases Darcy's desire for L. ============================================= From: Tay (Tay) * Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (13:31) * 2 lines Like for instance the time she gazes at Darcy with adoration and says, \"He is a man without fault\"? And how Lizzie, by her pert remarks and fine eyes was able to win his admiration at the end? Sometimes, I can't help feel a bit sorry for Caroline Bingley, although I suppose she deserves what she got. =================================== From: Rebecca Davey (Becks) * Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:41) * 1 lines Duckface, that's all I have to say! ================================= From: Amy Wolf (amy2) * Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:22) * 5 lines I love her great setups so that Darcy can convey how he's really feeling about Lizzy. Like at Netherfield, when Lizzy & Jane leave, Caroline comments that Mr. Darcy must be pining her absence, and he says: \"No, quite the contrary, I assure you.\" Or at the end, at Pemberly, when she is ragging on Lizzy, even down to her teeth, and forces Darcy to admit that which only causes pain to herself (bad paraphrase of Austen here). ========================================== From: Inko (Inko) * Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:31) * 2 lines Or at Netherfield, when they were talking about accomplished women and when Lizzy leaves the room (this is in the book only) CB says Lizzy is trying to recommend herself to the other sex by disparaging her own and adds \"in my opinion, it is a paltry device, a very mean art.\" To which Darcy replies \"there is meanness in all the arts which ladies sometimes condescend to employ for captivation. Whatever bears affinity to cunning is despicable.\" I love this scene because it's the first indication in the book hat Darcy can see right through CB and all her affectations. ========================================= From: Ian Davey (geekman) * Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (19:08) * 1 lines G'day, Perhaps Miss Bingley should have gone for more walks breathing the fresh country air and getting a little tanned by the sun. ==================================================== From: kathleen elder (kathleen) * Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (20:03) * 9 lines Watched an Agatha Christie mystery on tv last night -- something w/ Hercule Poirot. Any way, our Miss Bingley was in it and looked quite beautiful (age was probably mid to late twenties). Not at all like Caroline or the Duck-face. From the book, I always had the impression that Caroline was both younger and more beautiful than in P&P2. But Anna Chancellor did a marvelous acting job. I especially like the scene after the look at Pemberley when Darcy tells how much he admires Lizzie. ============================================== From: Joan, too (jwinsor) * Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (02:11) * 1 lines The very fact that we all so love to hate Caroline speaks to the excellence of Anna Chancellor's performance. ======================================================== From: Katy Kendall (kendall) * Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (09:32) * 1 lines Caroline - the lady we love to hate. She is every snob who ever ignored us, every a** who ever chose to dislike us before knowing us, the self-proclaimed center to the 'in' crowd in high school who made sure we were 'out'. Pay backs are tough, Caroline! ============================="}, {"response": 21, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (20:56)", "body": "Thanks, Katy."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (21:17)", "body": "*Trivia Warning* I think that JA must bear a lot of the blame for the fact that the name\"Caroline is often assumed to be synonymous with \"Upper-class Bitch\" even in this day and age-I speak from personal experience here- but \"Catherine\" does not bear the same stigma. If Caroline Bingley is a bitch of the first order, then her big sister is not far behind. Although not quite as vocal, she can be just as poisonous.No wonder little brother Charles is so unsure of himself!Lady Cath. believes she is doing for the best of all concerned,but Caroline is all selfishness and spite. I vote for Miss B as the worse of the two."}, {"response": 23, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (21:34)", "body": "] Lady Cath. believes she is doing for the best of all concerned Lady Cath. believes without question she knows what is best for all concerned, but I do agree that she is the lesser of two evils."}, {"response": 24, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (22:09)", "body": "*Trivia Warning* I happen to be a Katherine myself. I think the difference may be the fact that Katherine is pronounced as two syllables (Kath-ryn) and Caroline is pronoucned as three (Car-o-line). It is careful pronunciation of every letter in your name that gives it that upper-class ring. And it is classy. With both Caroline Kennedy and Princess Caroline out there, the upper class label is going to stay."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (23:20)", "body": "I was supposed to be named Caroline, but after Caroline Kennedy was born, my mom decided that everyone would think she'd named me after her (nothing political, she's a democrat - she just didn't like the idea of naming kids after a celebrity). Anyway, since I didn't get it, I decided long ago that my first born daughter would be named Caroline. Now all I need is to get around to having kids! :)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Dec  1, 1996 (02:43)", "body": "Regarding Lady Catherine: Has anyone else noticed that she seems to be wearing her bloomers on top of her head? Just like when I was a little girl and would put my pajama bottoms on my head to pretend that I had long hair."}, {"response": 27, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Dec  1, 1996 (14:39)", "body": "I must say, all of those \"married women\" caps look like the wearer is only missing their PJ's so they can go straight to bed!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sun, Dec  1, 1996 (21:35)", "body": "Going back to the names.... I was christened Caroline because my mother thought it was unusual, or so she told me. Since she was a mega Austenite and Regency fan, I have often wondered whether she didn't have Queen Caroline of Brunswick (GeorgeIV's wife ) and Lady Caroline Lamb (Byron\"s Lover ) in mind too.Both of them were a bit off the wall. Another bit of trivia...Lady Catherine's clothes and espcially here Pyjama hat were supposedly based on a portait of Queen Caroline......"}, {"response": 29, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Dec  2, 1996 (03:02)", "body": "Did they diliberately choose the WORST colors for Lady C. and the Bingley sisters? Or were those awful oranges and browns the highest of fashion?"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Dec  2, 1996 (04:04)", "body": "awful oranges pre-empting the summer of '96 maybe?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Tue, Dec  3, 1996 (21:47)", "body": "According to \"The making of P&P\" book, page 53, Dinah Collin, the costume Designer dliberately set out to make as big a contrast between theglamour of the Bingley sisters and the pretty simplicity of the Bennet girls, therefore she put them in much stronger colours and a lot of silk and glitter. Personally, I don't mind browns and oranges, but I agree that they can be hard to wear. Perhaps they contribute to Caroline's ugliness. Poor Anna Chancellor!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Dec  4, 1996 (20:00)", "body": "Those hats! And feathers! Vivien Leigh would have looked bad. . ."}, {"response": 33, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Dec  4, 1996 (21:15)", "body": "When I was about the age of the B. sisters, we still wore hats in the daytime. The strict rule was (who knows why) hats were for the day time only - not to evening events - church, shopping, whatever. Every time I see the Bingley sisters with their elaborate hats at an evening party, I snorkel and remember how crass they would have appeared in my youth and how crass they look now. I sometimes wondered if the costume designers were thinking about the same ruls of fashion and trying to play on our memories of good and bad taste."}, {"response": 34, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Dec  5, 1996 (11:01)", "body": "I definitely think the costumers were going for a bit of comedy in the Bingley sisters' hats. Ditto Lady Catherine's \"bloomers on her head.\" Someone had mentioned this on the board -- I was re-watching last night, remembered the comment, and \"could barely keep my countenance\"!"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Marsha", "date": "Fri, Dec  6, 1996 (14:08)", "body": "I personally think Caroline is worse than Laddy C.-at least Lady Catherine is far away at Rosings, but Caroline is always around. Also, Lady C. is frank and honest, but Caroline is hyppocritical (about Jane etc) Ugh!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Dec  6, 1996 (16:19)", "body": "I think we hate Caroline more because she's a direct romantic rival of Lizzy's (in _her_ eyes, at least)."}, {"response": 37, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Dec  7, 1996 (00:40)", "body": ".. Caroline is always around... Marsha - I love it. I bet Charles feels the same way!"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Dec  7, 1996 (09:18)", "body": "Yes, but, I would have to say the L.C. has position, money, and the power to which she would use to cause more problems for Lizzie then Caroline would.I don't see really how Caroline would be around the Darcy's after they are married but L.Catherine could be around a lot if she so choosed. I don't like Caroline either but L.C. is a control freak."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Dec  7, 1996 (13:50)", "body": "I vote for Mr. Hurst. When Lizzy enters the dining room the first day at Netherfield (just after Darcy pronounces the Bennets unmarriagable) Hurst doesn't even have teh decency to stand when the lady enters the room. How shocking!"}, {"response": 40, "author": "panache", "date": "Sun, Dec  8, 1996 (08:24)", "body": "Hurst rhymes with wurst, and that's exactly what he looks like to me- a sprawling sausage of gluttony and physical appetites in general. Possibly the shallowest JA person to me. I also dislike Miss Steel in S&S, though, for her brand of conniving and troublebrewing. Somehow Caroline at least has humor in her persona, as Anna C. played her."}, {"response": 41, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sun, Dec  8, 1996 (23:10)", "body": "Actually, most of that is thanks to Rupert Vansittart - JA gives us remarkably few clues (for her) regarding the details of Mr. Hurst's character."}, {"response": 42, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (16:02)", "body": "Donna's right -- Lady C. can cause a whole lot more trouble for Lizzy after the marriage than C.B. can. How does Austen resolve the Lady Catherine thread in the book? Does she reconcile with Darcy, and deign to visit the \"polluted\" shades of Pemberley? Help me -- I can't remember!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (16:37)", "body": "Darcy patches things up with Lizzy's help and Lady C visits after all. I most like the epilogue's reference to Mr Bennet becoming a frequent visitor. What a sweetie."}, {"response": 44, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (17:28)", "body": "Lady Catherine: I really do not believe she can cause many problems for Elizabeth. She lives far away. She is very fond of and proud of Darcy. Continuing her war with Elizabeth will alienate Darcy. She is a stupid, selfish woman who must have a limited realm of influence over a few people dependent upon her and a few others of little understanding. People of sense will ignore her if she tries to turn them against Elizabeth. And the tabloids, who would gladly publish anything they could get her to sa , (foolish woman she, this would be fertile ground!) were not around then to operate on the modern scale. Miss Bingley, on the other hand, is clever, and being younger with no settled home of her own, is more mobile. Distance will never keep her from Pemberly. Once Charles and Jane settle in the next county, distance will never be a problem for her. If she ever figures out why her previous assaults on Elizabeth were ineffective, she could find ways to influence people against Elizabeth. And she will probably out-live Lady C. to be a thorn in Elizabeth's side long after the Lady has gone to her eternal re ard. Anyone want to speculate on a suitable eternal reward - to eat dinner every night with Mr. Collins?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (19:43)", "body": "I don't know if I agree. Lady Catherine is Darcy's \"almost nearest relation\" and she has enough money & power to cause a lot of bother. If she keeps up her hatred of E., it seems that every family function could be pretty awkward. Likewise, I think that C.B. loses most of her leverage when Darcy marries Lizzy. Her eternal reward -- being made to hear Mary play & sing forever?"}, {"response": 46, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Tue, Dec 10, 1996 (03:43)", "body": "\"Her eternal reward -- being made to hear Mary play & sing forever?\" Capital! Capital! While at dinner with Mr. Collins."}, {"response": 47, "author": "MRCOLLINS", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (11:20)", "body": "Actually I feel a little sorry for Mary. Anybody care to speculate on her fate? I think JA says in one of her letters that she married one of her uncle's lawclerks. She might have been bitter over being rejected by Mr Collins."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (11:28)", "body": "] Actually I feel a little sorry for Mary. Anybody care to speculate on her fate? I think JA says in one of her letters that she married one of her uncle's lawclerks. She might have been bitter over being rejected by Mr Collins. ___ Hi Carl. Welcome. You know, I'll bet Mary did not expect much. Therefore she was probably not bitter. It is very funny to think of her longing for Mr C, though, fantasizing about him &c. Amy"}, {"response": 49, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (11:37)", "body": "What about Kitty? Did JA ever drop what kind of guy she might have ended up with?"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (15:17)", "body": "Kitty was respectably married to a clergyman who held a living near Pemberly"}, {"response": 51, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (16:18)", "body": "Thanks! I didn't think she was destined for a particularly rich husband."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Kathy", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (01:00)", "body": "The marital outcomes of Kitty and Mary were not resolved in the book, but rather, through JA's letters and other writings after the book was published. Everybody wanted to know what happened to so-and-so, so Jane invented postscripts for some of them, that survive to today."}, {"response": 53, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (07:40)", "body": "I've come on to this thread late, but... Re: 24:46 -- I have the \"Jane Austen Punishments List\" in the Jane Austen jokes file Re: 24:52 -- I have James Edward Austen-Leigh's summary of Jane Austen's follow-on comments at the beginning of http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/austseql.html"}, {"response": 54, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Dec 28, 1996 (22:26)", "body": "Was watching P&P2 tonight and during the Lizzy/Lady C. confrontation in tape 6(?), and it seemed to me that Lady C. sounded like Our Miss Brooks - Eve Arden. except Miss Brooks never sounded as cross and unpleasant as Lady C. Did I imagine that or has anyone else noticed the voice similarity?"}, {"response": 55, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (10:40)", "body": "Yeah, I noticed the Eve Arden /Lady C. vocal similarity! Another is a Darcy/Capt. Kirk of STAR TREK similarity in the Part 6 moment when Bingley says \"So I have your blessing[to propose to Jane]?\" Look at the way Darcy moves his head and listen as he vocalizes \"Do you need my blessing?\"etc. IT'S PURE KIRK!(like scenes where Kirk would get this slightly ironic manner & look talking to a crewman) We could probably find many others, such as someone said on topic #4 that Darcy resembled a young singer Tom Jones as D. leaned back in his chair, exhausted from writing the letter to E. Anyone see/hear any others??"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (11:06)", "body": "] Look at the way Darcy moves his head and listen as he vocalizes \"Do you need my blessing?\"etc. IT'S PURE KIRK! ___ LOL, France. You have some extra rich neural connections I do not possess."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (11:07)", "body": "Yes I have notice a similarity to Sir Lawrence Oliver after the first proposal before he walks up the stairs to write the letter to Lizzie.When walks into the light at that moment he reminds me of him. When he says No,forgive me forgive me. {sigh}When he leans back in his chair he looks like SLO to me. I don't really care for TJ."}, {"response": 58, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (12:02)", "body": "Donna, I thought he looked very like Laurence Olivier after he got out of the carriage at the first assembly in Meryton and he looked up at the windows. When I first saw that upward glance I immediately thought SLO!!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (12:15)", "body": "He is such a cutie-pie more so then SLO he seems more approachable. I do admire SLO who doesn't he was such a wonderful actor. I guess it has to do with his vast \"Shakesphearian\" background."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (12:31)", "body": "I'm with you, Donna. CF seems to be a much warmer person, and his Darcy also becomes a much warmer one than Olivier's. SLO was a great actor and a great \"STAR\" as in the 30's and 40's there were other such great, unapproachable stars. But I think CF is more of a chameleon as an actor - he can change appearance, tone, body language, and personality to fit the role which I don't think SLO ever did."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (13:11)", "body": "Yes,yes a \"Chameleon\" I like him very much indeed."}, {"response": 62, "author": "panache", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (13:19)", "body": "Donna and Inko- \"He is such a cutie-pie more so then SLO he seems more approachable...CF seems to be a much warmer person, and his Darcy also becomes a much warmer one than Olivier's.\" Whew, it IS getting warm in here. ;-) I realize that this tangent is becoming #4-ish, but (heck, it's HIS site practically, ain't it?) on recommendation I did check out A MONTH IN THE COUNTRY- FILM DISCUSSION site (have also seen film) and I agree with Carol's? comment about how, even at just 26? and in a different role, CF sunning himself on the tomb (right before the minister's wife wakens him) is a very kissable-looking stunner! (Where is MY fencing foil and pond? I shall conquer this!)"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (14:22)", "body": "Oh, I have not seen A MONTH IN THE COUNTRY but have read serval discussion. Sure would like to. I like \"very kissable-looking\". I guess I am back to \"drooling\" Oh well, can't help myself."}, {"response": 64, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (15:18)", "body": "LOL Cecily and Donna. Maybe we'd better head back to Topic #4 before we slobber all over this one!!;) Oh yes, that scene in A Month in the Country is gorgeous, as well as the final goodbye scene in the belfry with Mrs. Keach - oh those eyes."}, {"response": 65, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Dec 30, 1996 (22:38)", "body": "I can't agree that Olivier didn't have the ability to change looks/mannerisms for a role. How can you compare him in WUTHERING HEIGHTS to he played in BOYS FROM BRAZIL?! Or his mid-European grandfather in A LITTLE ROMANCE to Lord Nelson in THAT HAMILTON WOMAN? Egad, the man was a virtual chameleon!"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Tay", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (15:02)", "body": "Exactly. Laurence Olivier is one of my most favourite actors (they usually tend to be stars from the 30's and 40's.) I especially love his performance in Rebecca - nothing can match that wonderful condescending attitude of his towards adorable Joan Fontaine! But I don't like his Heathcliff; he wasn't too cruel. And his Darcy was too stiff, and a bit akward."}, {"response": 67, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jan  2, 1997 (19:31)", "body": "Yeah, he definitely played Darcy as aloof. Though he warmed up quite a bit in that first proposal scene with Greer!"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "I remember admiring his performance in \"Richard III\" as well as Rebecca and some Tjechov play \"Uncle Vanja\" ?"}, {"response": 69, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (17:23)", "body": "I understand he was wonderful playing a burned out song-and-dance man. And the film was. . .???"}, {"response": 70, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (17:32)", "body": "amy2 -- are you meaning the movie \"The Entertainer\"?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (17:37)", "body": "Has anyone seen August, the Uncle Vanya set in Wales with Anthony Hopkins?"}, {"response": 72, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (19:49)", "body": "If I'm not mistaken, Hopkins also composed the music for August ."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (19:57)", "body": "Directed, too."}, {"response": 74, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (13:21)", "body": "Yes, Kathleen, the film was THE ENTERTAINER. Haven't seen it, but I understand that Olivier was amazing."}, {"response": 75, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Jan  9, 1997 (14:19)", "body": "Amy2 -- I saw THE ENTERTAINER a long time ago. I remember little about it, but I do remember thinking that Olivier was good (but so very different from many other of his parts that it took a while to get used to him)."}, {"response": 76, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan 10, 1997 (15:25)", "body": "He really was amazingly versatile. And he continued to be so even in his later years."}, {"response": 77, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Jan 12, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "Rebecca was a wonderful film...it captured the mood of the book perfectly. Also enjoyed THW ...the story intrigued me...and I love Vivien Leigh..."}, {"response": 78, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (12:32)", "body": "I thought THAT HAMILTON WOMAN was a really great film. You don't hear too much about it these days though..."}, {"response": 79, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (17:57)", "body": "For some reason, a lot of people don't like the stuff Sir Larry and Ms. Vivien did together. I hear that their ROmeo and Juliet was a really bad film, but I loved THW. It's a very bittersweet story, and done well. Admiral Nelson is a just the type of character Olivier was meant to portray. Why wouldn't people be able to appreciate this film?"}, {"response": 80, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (19:14)", "body": "I have no idea. I just loved THW. And Leigh really did look radiant. Go figure."}, {"response": 81, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (21:30)", "body": "I loved THW also. I headed to the encylopedia and then the local library trying to find out more about Lord Nelson and Lady Hamilton. I was fascinated that even World Book gave a few lines to the mistress in their short biography. Local library was no help though. I would love to know more about them. I have seen a few scenes of the new adaption of the story with Lady Hamilton a very loud and vulgar person but cared little for it. One day I will get to the university library and perhaps learn more."}, {"response": 82, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (22:40)", "body": "Katy, the later version of Lady Hamilton as loud and vulgar is historically more accurate as far as I can remember. She was certainly neither as beautiful or as refined as Vivien Leigh made her. But I did and still do love the movie. BTW it was just called \"Lady Hamilton\" in England."}, {"response": 83, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "I think it was an Alexander Korda film. And released at a time when Britain needed a lift during WWII. . ."}, {"response": 84, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (16:18)", "body": "\"Lady Hamilton as loud and vulgar is historically more accurate\" somehow, this doesn't surprize me -- but I think I will skip the movie anyway. So, Inko, what became of Lady Hamilton after Lord Nelson died?"}, {"response": 85, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "That part of the movie is pretty accurate so far as I know. She was left without any money, destitute, and more or less on the street. Lady Nelson was left the house, money, honour, and everything that Nelson would have been entitled to had he lived."}, {"response": 86, "author": "kendall", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (23:05)", "body": "\".. more or less on the street\" Is nothing else known of her after Lord Nelson died? Did the child survive to adulthood? Did she literally live on the street? Could Nelson have provided for her if he had thought to?"}, {"response": 87, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (01:05)", "body": "Did not Susan Sontag write a novel on this subject? Or am I confusing things."}, {"response": 88, "author": "alix", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (18:55)", "body": "You know, after watching P&P again, the person I wanted to thwack wasn't Ducky, or Lady C.- it was Mrs. Bennet. She reminds me just too much of my aunt, I suppose. I would say that Mr. Collins reminds me of my World History teacher, but that would be cruel- to Mr. C."}, {"response": 89, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (19:31)", "body": "I must agree with you on Mrs. Bennet. Don't you love how she and Mrs. Phillips suddenly \"remember\" how much they had distrusted Wickham!?! \"There was always something about his eyes\"! She comes across as stupid, but really she knew exactly how to get her own way, didn't she? I still dislike Duckface, though. I love it when Darcy puts her in her place after E. leaves Pemberley that night. \"having forced him to say what gave no one any pain but herself.\""}, {"response": 90, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (21:35)", "body": "Don't you love how she and Mrs. Phillips suddenly \"remember\" how much they had distrusted Wickham!?! \"There was always something about his eyes\"! Similar to how Mrs. Dashwood \"remembers\" there were things she didn't like so much about Willoughby, now that Marianne is with Colonel Brandon? Loved Elinor's smile upon listening to her mother!"}, {"response": 91, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (10:54)", "body": "How about Mrs B's sudden switcheroo after the marriage arrangements had been set. \"Oh, I knew he [her brother] would manage everything.\" Then a minute later he was guilty of something dreadful -- what was it?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (11:18)", "body": "I also like her changing views on Bingley after he's left Netherfield. When she's talking to Lizzy in the garden: \"Well, just as he pleases. No one WANTS him to come.\" Of course, if he showed up that second, she'd prostrate herself at his feet."}, {"response": 93, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (12:40)", "body": "Amy: How about Mrs B's sudden switcheroo after the marriage arrangements had been set. \"Oh, I knew he [her brother] would manage everything.\" Then a minute later he was guilty of something dreadful -- what was it? Mr. Gardiner's sin was to be so high handed as to have Lydia be married in London rather than at Longbourn...\"I do not see that! Why must that be?\" Silly, silly woman. Or when she is so afraid that Mr. Bennet will fight Wickham and be killed, but when Mr. Bennet is to come home, \"Oh, who will fight Wickham and make him marry her?\" But my favorite turn-around is her attitude towards Darcy, \"Oh, what pin money you shall have! Pray find out what his favorite dishes are!\" ;-)"}, {"response": 94, "author": "alix", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (20:02)", "body": "I wouldn't call Mrs. B. sillt all of the time. I just think that the things that you pointed out above that she said, she said to make herself seem to be in the best possible light- of course Lizzy and Mr. B. would remind her of her turn-around fairly often!"}, {"response": 95, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (20:38)", "body": "I guess Mrs B's best scene was not shot, when Lizzy tells her of the engagement."}, {"response": 96, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (23:34)", "body": "How did she react in the book? Was she stunned into silence, or did she go into a tizzy?"}, {"response": 97, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (23:55)", "body": "Amy2: How did she react in the book? She was silent for fully 10 minutes! And then went into the above mentioned \"what pin money you shall have\" speech...\"Why Bingley's wealth is nothing compared to his!\" Terribly crude and crass, you know, typical Mrs. Bennet! ;-)"}, {"response": 98, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (06:14)", "body": "Jane Austen tells us that Elizabeth \"reserve to herselfthe application for her mother's [consent. She knew that her mother's manner (whether she rejected ]. . . . whether she [Mrs Bennet] were violently set against the match, or violently delighted with it, it was certain that her manner would be equally ill adapted to do credit to her sense\". Actually, it seems to me that Mrs Bennet's reaction did complete justice to her sense! And Alison Steadman could have had a field day with that scene. ;-)"}, {"response": 99, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "Kathleen said Mrs. Bennet's reaction did complete justice to her sense! I agree that it did - or was it her lack of sense?? Alison Steadman could have had a field day with that scene.;-) Oh yes, I'd love to have seen it. I can just visualize her, after Lizzie had gone back to her own room, flying down the corridor opening Lizzie's door and saying in her loud voice, \"And a special license. You must and shall be married by a special license.\" At which point, of course, Kitty and Mary would also descend on Lizzie's room and the excitement in the corridor would continue long after Lizzie had closed the door with a sigh of relief!!;-)"}, {"response": 100, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (16:18)", "body": "Or perhaps the best part of all: Mrs B's utter silence upon first hearing the news. (I still believe she was for a split second jealous)"}, {"response": 101, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (03:09)", "body": "But would the 10 minutes of silence have filmed well? ;-)"}, {"response": 102, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (09:02)", "body": "]But would the 10 minutes of silence have filmed well? ;-) How about this: (Elizabeth and Mrs. Bennet in Mrs. B's room.) E: Mama, Mr. Darcy had proposed and I have accepted. Mrs. B: (Silent and totally still) E: Mama, did you hear, Mr. Darcy and I are to be married. Mrs. B: (Remains silent and still) E: Mama, are you all right? Mama? Mama! Mrs. B: Lips moving, but no sound coming out--Mr. Darcy, 10,000 a year, 10,000 a year, 10,000 a year ..... At this point E either A) runs some smelling salts under her nose or B) dumps a pitcher of water over her (the choice is yours). Mrs. B thus recovers and goes into her pin money speech."}, {"response": 103, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (12:12)", "body": "Carolyn -- wonderfully imagined. I personally like the pitcher of water, but I imagine Elizabeth would be nice and use the smelling salts. And don't forget, Mrs B has to fidget, get up and sit down again! I shall just imagine Allison Steadman here. ;.)"}, {"response": 104, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (13:21)", "body": "I still like the idea of Mrs. Bennet being played by Eric Idle or Michael Palin."}, {"response": 105, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb 16, 1997 (15:12)", "body": "#102 At this point E either A) runs some smelling salts under her nose or B) dumps a pitcher ofwater over her (the choice is yours). Carolyn, how evil of you to give us that choice! You know how most of us would want to choose, don't you?"}, {"response": 106, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (06:58)", "body": "#105 Carolyn, how evil of you to give us that choice! You know how most of us would want to choose, don't you? Susan, I am sure we are ladylike and will do the \"right\" thing. ;-)"}, {"response": 107, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (10:58)", "body": "I'm still fond of my idea that Mrs. Bennet should be played by Hugh Grant. Such palpitations of his heart & flutterings!"}, {"response": 108, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "] Mrs. Bennet should be played by Hugh Grant. Such palpitations of his heart & flutterings! the very thing! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 240, "subject": "Emma 3", "response_count": 69, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (08:34)", "body": "Kathleen, I just got my hands on \"The Making of Emma\". What a wonderful book! I have not read it yet, but I have skimmed through it a few times. I love the fact that the screenplay with \"stage\" directions is included. The pictures are wonderful! There are so many good ones of Mark Strong.(the \"bald\" one is nice, too). He appears to have a five o'clock shadow in some of the pictures; howevr i had already noticed that in a few of his close up scenes in the video. My favorite picture has to be one at the bac of the book after the screenplay. It was taken during the propasal. KB and MS are facing each other with big smiles on their faces, and KB is standing on her tiptoes. I love it!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "bplaroch", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (13:31)", "body": "About the hats... I thought the hats were supposed to set Emma apart as having more fashion sense than anyone else in little old Highbury (I'm not necessarily saying I like them). In P&P2, Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst are the only ladies wearing hats at the Meryton assembl y and are thought to be very elegant. Also in Persuasion, Lady R always wears a hat. I thought that was just supposed to show that these women were more concerned about fashion than other women. I agree that GP going hatless most of the time in Emma2 does give her a more unaffected air than KB has in Emma3. This is imbued in the character in other ways as well. KB looks with utter disdain at Robert Martin. GP does not act nearly so stuck up. I guess it goes down to interpretation of the character. Also in the old Emma1, she never wears hats, but she does have a lot of fussy little muffs and capes and such. I also thought that even though some of KB's hats were pretty outlandish, she wore them very well. I try to picture myself in such a hat, and I can only imagine the comments, \"I had no idea she could look so very clownish, so totally without air...\""}, {"response": 3, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:49)", "body": "I try to picture myself in such a hat, and I can only imagine the comments, \"I had no idea she could look so very clownish, so totally without air...\" LOL, Barbara! The fashionable ladies you mention are indeed sartorial goddesses - and they're also OBNOXIOUS!!! Note, too, that Caroline B. is well on her way to oldmaiddom, certainly in spirit if not in the literal sense. Check out this expression...ack! I really have to See Emma1...it sounds like a party..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:51)", "body": "She looks like the Mad Hatter...\"And a very merry unbirthday to you...!\""}, {"response": 5, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (14:55)", "body": "hee, hee"}, {"response": 6, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "Kim: My favorite picture has to be one at the back of the book after the screenplay. It was taken during the propasal. KB and MS are facing each other with big smiles on their faces, and KB is standing on her tiptoes. I love it! I agree. And I like the pre-kiss picture on page 148 as well. These don't really look like publicity photos. I suppose they were either lighting checks or maybe different shots of the scenes which got left out in the final version. The picture you men tion shows so much happiness on their faces, it is wonderful to contemplate. The picture of the leading ladies (page 14, outfits from the strawberry party) is also a nice one."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:12)", "body": "And a very merry unbirthday to you, too, Mrs. Bernhard...;)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (18:54)", "body": "Kali, you crack me up. (and you know I'm still in my stunned state of being)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Serena", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:36)", "body": "Kali, I see you're still nailing it spot-on the point. Her hats/bonnets did add to an overbearing-Emma and were very becoming to her protrayal of Emma. I quite pictured Emma more liked Gweneth did."}, {"response": 10, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (19:53)", "body": "I loved the scene (in Emma3, BTW) where Emma & Harriet visit the Bates and find FC and Jane Fairfax. Frank and Jane subtly but surely showed their embarrassment and affection. She clearly understands all of his comments, and Emma is quite clueless (alth ough Emma thinks she is the one in the know)."}, {"response": 11, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (20:08)", "body": "Speaking of being clueless or in-the-know, what of old Mrs. Bates? Is she the total ditz? She always understands what Jane says, but then Jane speaks so clearly. Just something I've always wondered about, ever since my first reading, ? years ago."}, {"response": 12, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (20:15)", "body": "Maybe Mrs Bates is \"selectively\" deaf! My father was like that -- he always seemed to hear what he wanted to hear (or what I did not want him to hear!). Mrs Bates might have preferred, at times, just to tune out her talkative daughter."}, {"response": 13, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (20:40)", "body": "But what of her awareness of all that transpired between Jane and Frank?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Nicole", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (23:05)", "body": "I just bought A&E \"Emma\" at Costco for $12.39 Canadian {what a deal}, and at the beginning there is about 1 or 2 min. of the Making of P.&P. I love M.S. interpretation of Mr. Knightley."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (23:49)", "body": "Mrs Bates might have preferred, at times, just to tune out her talkative daughter. Sheer self-preservation, Kathleen! I love M.S. interpretation of Mr. Knightley. You are in good company, Nicole, and most welcome!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (02:26)", "body": "Indeed, Nicole, it's always nice to meet another MS/Knightley fan. I was enjoying the Christmas Eve dinner at the Westons'. When Mrs Weston says she forgives Frank for not having visited yet, the look between Mr & Mrs Weston is so loving. Very affectionate couple. [You must talk amongst yourselves for a few days. I am going to visit some friends until Tuesday night. Catch you later.]"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (03:27)", "body": "\"But what of her (Mrs Bates) awareness of all that transpired between Jane and Frank?\" Cindy, I always wondered about that..though with Miss Bates I sometimes get the impression, when reading the book that Miss Bates was somewhat let into the secret, I found that especially when the rivots of the spectacles scene, and how Miss Bates was loudly, incessantly reminding the newly arrived guest of the \"s tep at the turning\", it seemed like she was alerting Jane of their coming back into the flat.. or have I always imagined that?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (08:43)", "body": "Serena, I agree about the \"step at the turning\" bit; it does seem as though she knows what is going on, but in the book, did she really? I'm not sure. Speaking of the Christams dinner, one thing that has bothered me is Mr. K's words about FC, about how he should have come sooner. They all knew this to be so, but it seems a little ungentlemanly to criticize Mr. Weston's son in front of him. I can see h im saying it to Emma in private, but in front of everyone? I thought this was a little rude, something that a true gentlman like Mr. K would not do, regardless of his real feelings on the matter. I too loved the addition of the servants on Box Hill, and the way they show them riding on the cart, holding everything down, and then dropping things on the way up. It really makes you think about how much trouble this would all be. Certainly not an ou ting to be taken lightly."}, {"response": 19, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (14:55)", "body": "Lynn, I wondered about that, too. it does seem a little out ofcharacter for K to critiisize in front of F's father. He also does something like that after he finds out F. has gone to London to get his hair cut. He mutters under his breath about F. being t he silly fellow he thought he was. Maybe he is just so jealous of F. that he cannot help his reaction."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (15:16)", "body": "As far as Miss Bates knowing about Frank and Jane, I'm afraid that I'm unable to believe that she would be able to keep a secret from spilling from her lips even if her very life depended on it. We used to use a grossly indelicate expression to describe people like her: we said they had 'diarrhea of the mouth.\" Miss Bates is definitely infected with that disease -- she's one of those \"Think it; say it\" people. ;-) Yes, Kathleen, the Westons do exchange many loving looks. I particularly like the one you're talking about, when Mrs. Weston says, \"Well, I forgive him,\" meaning Frank. I agree it seems rather presumptuous of Mr. Knightley to criticize Frank in front of the Westons and others, but I think he is such a gentleman himself that he is appalled by a lack of gentlemanly behavior in others. However, to have him display this by being somewhat ungentlemanly himself, and possibly causing pain to his friends, does seem \"un-Knightley-like.\" But I forgive him... ;-) Aren't the servant scenes great? My personal favorite is still the scene where they have to stand there and move the cushions down every few feet for the strawberry pickers. And it's taken so much for granted. It's no wonder the servants always talked so much and had so much gossip to carry; no one ever seems to hold their tongue in front of them."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (15:40)", "body": "Mr. Knightley is one to feel a sense of duty and thinks everyone else should Where Frank is knowingly avoiding visiting his father to be with Jane Fairfax. Once Jane has arrived he is there."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:05)", "body": "I didn't find it all that out of character for him to say what he thought was right. I did like the added touch of the Westons being a little amused by his bluntness. I think the look they exchanged was meant to tell us that Knightley is not a jerk, just a person who won't hesitate to say what he believes is right and just."}, {"response": 23, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:20)", "body": "They exchange the same sort of look after Knightley takes leave to tend to his delayed business, too. They seem rather more amused at K's taking it so seriously than by Frank's being a \"coxcomb\" as Mr. Weston called him. As Emma said at the very first scene, I believe \"Mr. Weston would take it very much amiss\" if Miss Taylor had not shown at the church for their wedding."}, {"response": 24, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (18:22)", "body": "\"They seem rather more amused at K's taking it so seriously than by Frank's being a \"coxcomb\" I agree with that comment, Cindy but it does not add to Mr Knightley's attraction of being the true gentleman, if the Westons (themselves considered respectable) could be amused by his sense of honour and in front of people too that would learn from their behaviour (such as Harriet and Emma even) Mark S was usually uptight about something or other. I thought this adaptation had him to caught up with duty. There was little warmness in his character. Don't get me woring, I think he does a great job given he script he had to work with."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:52)", "body": "I agree with you, Serena...his comment about duty at the Christmas party was perhaps a bit too blunt to be in character...he may not hesitate to speak his mind about Frank to Emma in private, but I greatly doubt he would take such a public shot about a man he's never met - in front of his parents and their friends! It sounds like more of a John thing to do...(and he does, in his own style...the line about the Churchills' money). Everyone knows how I feel, but again, I have to say that this script allows Mark Strong too much \"tall (and righteous!) indignation\"...I've always thought Mr. Knightley too circumspect to get so petulant (the above-mentioned Frank comment, his reading of \"It would do her good!\", the ranting after Frank's no-show, &C.). He's supposed to have a commanding air, but he's not supposed to be publicly obnoxious."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:53)", "body": "Oops, Serena! I see now that you meant the haircut day scene...no matter, it all equals the same anyhow... BTW - I DO like Mark Strong...a lot, as a matter of fact...I just wish that he would tone himself down a bit sometimes..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (03:14)", "body": "And he had such a warm, sincere, caring smile, it seemed a pity he was always so uptight.."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (03:27)", "body": "I felt the same way as you guys until I watched Emma3 a few times, then it seemed more in perspective. I love the play between Emma and Knightley when he helps her out of the carriage at Randalls (\"Nonsensical girl!\"); the honest comments and looks he gives her when they are talking about how talented Jane is and Emma is not; the way he always remembers to offer a hand or an arm, or to bow and excuse himself before leaving a conversation; and last but not least, the way he looks in the scene where Isabel a and John come to visit (I know this is not new, but God, do I love it!)."}, {"response": 29, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:08)", "body": "Susan, and the strawberry party, don't forget the strawberry party! :-)"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:49)", "body": "As if I could, Cindy! Brown rules! I was just trying to focus, at least for a short time, on his gentlemanly ways, since I now have a drool site for my lustful appreciations..."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:50)", "body": "BAD words!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:07)", "body": "After reading \"the Making of Emma\" and AD's and MS's comments about Mr. Knightly, I believe they were trying to show him as a man deeply in love (although he did not realize it in the beginning). He is jealous of Frank Churchill and thinks he is going to lose the relationship with Emma that he has had for so long. MS says that he was worried at first that people would be put off by him always having a go at Emma,but he realized his strong reactions were always out of his deep feeling for Emma. At Box Hill he is devastated because of Emma's behavior to Miss Bates, and he is hurt by the way he thinks Emma feels about Frank.It all comes to a head and he has his very strong words for Emma. needless to say, I find MS as Mr. Knightly perfect. Cindy, I think I came into all of this a little late, and I have not had a chance to read some of the earlier postings. Would it be too hard on you to tell me what it is exactly about the strawberry party you love? Is it just the brown clothes?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:28)", "body": "Here is a portion of the interview with MS from the \"making of \" book.: \"I pared it down to basics. He's loved Emma for a long time, even though he's not necessarily concious that he wants to marry her at the beginning of the story. He is patient and he's waiting and he's guiding her, and then suddenly here comes this boy, Frank Churchill, who ruins everything. Knightly's whole world is turned on its head. I think the first times he feels that everything is falling away is when he and Emma walk into the Westons'arty together. We have this lovely chat-she's smiling and I'm sm ling- and then the door opens and there's Frank, and she beams a big smile at him.(Kim's note: Did that cut this scene out? I do not remember seeing it.) Suddenly it's not about me and her anymore.I think he feels a bit superflluous, and I must admit in playing the scene, that I felt a bit like a spare part, too. He gets irritated by this boy, and starts telling off Emma more sharply than he's ever done before. He's probably going home in the evening and thinking,\"Why on Earth did I do that? What is hap ening?'. I think, slowly, he works it out for himself. He comes to realize that he loves her. And he fears that he may lose her to this young pup. At this point I worried that, becuase I was always having a go at Emma, the audience might not see the love behind it. I was talking to Jimmy Hazeldine about this one day and he said not to worry, that for him the scene at Box Hill where Knightly pulls Emma up on her behaviour to Miss Bates was an act of love. He said that people don't take that kind of interest in somebody unless they have very special feelings for them. After that scene, Knightly is convinced that he's lost Emma to Frank and takes himself off to London and only returns when he hears of Frank's engagement to Jane. What's lovely about the propasal scene is that it sort of happens by accident. He thinks she'll be devasted by Frank. She thinks he is in love with Harriet. So neither expects what suddenly happens.............\" I apologize for this being so long, but I thought some of you might be interested in MS's comments. Susan, for your information, this portion is on page 21, next to page 20 that Kathleen and I have already discussed as having a wonderful \"hat\" picture."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Yes, Mark Strong plays an incredibly jealous lover. Too obviously jealous if you ask me. Almost spiteful, and it bugs. Susan, I wish there were more light moments like that upon arrival at the pianoforte scene party... My general original comments are preserved for all to see at http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/kalem3rev.html Susan's tracking of Knighltey's love for Emma is at http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/susem3rev.html"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "BTW, I finished my sixth viewing of this film on Friday...I purchased the video the week it was broadcast."}, {"response": 36, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:59)", "body": "Thanks a bunch for those comments, not having it yet, awaiting this book's arrival with much impatience ]He said that people don't take that kind of interest in somebody unless they have very special feelings for them . Well, I believe we do :)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:49)", "body": "Kim, let's see,now what exactly about the strawberry party? In short, just about everything! Every last minute detail. - Mrs. E's being glad not to have any form to their day, but wishing they's come in on a donkey - Emma's making faces behind Mrs. E's back, registering them with Mr. K - \"perhaps not\" - Mrs. E's face after Knightley puts her off - the servants standing out in the garden, in full dress, just to move the little cushions - One of My Absolute favorites - \"are you fond of sheep then, Mrs. Elton?\" - AG! - Mr. K sitting at table licking strawberry juice off his fingers - everything else However, my constantly quoting \"perhaps not\" goes back to my thinking that he (MS) is at his absolute cutest in his brown hat, brown coat, with big brown playful eyes that are trying not to give away too much that he's admitting to seeing the faces that Emma's making at Mrs. E behind her back. And in my shallowest of shallow feelings, the hat frames his face very nicely (and covering the receding). And FYI, I have officially changed my favorite color to brown, for various reasons. ;-)"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:17)", "body": "I agree with whoever said he looked good completely bald...he looks VERY nice that way..."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:52)", "body": "Do we get to see a scanned picture Kali, or is that asking too much? Please."}, {"response": 40, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:56)", "body": "Serena, there's one in Darcy's drool, CF and MS wearing red shirts in a crowd. (shot from Fever Pitch)"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:59)", "body": "Thanks.. haven't been to drool for ages and ages.. on my way now.."}, {"response": 42, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:02)", "body": "Serena, in fact, the lovely Johanne put it in as #11 in Mark Strong."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (22:45)", "body": "Kim, thanks so much for sharing; it gives us a lot of insight into how MS saw his character. He's probably going home in the evening and thinking,\"Why on Earth did I do that? What is hapening?'. I think, slowly, he works it out for himself. He comes to realize that he loves her. And he fears that he may lose her to this young pup. Poor man! I can't WAIT for this book. (And BTW, I don't remember that scene where she smiles at Frank at the Westons, either.) Kali, I know this wasn't an Emma moment, but how about the fun Knightley has playing with John and Isabella's kids? He really lets his hair down there, so to speak. And as Cindy mentioned above, the way he enjoys baiting Mrs. Elton at the strawberry party as Emma laughs. And the scene where he is smiling behind Mrs. Bates's back as she says the 'three silly things' line. And his \"very sprightly\" about Frank's dancing at the ball. I guess I see all of this as showing his sense of humor. I'm curious, Kali, since I really do value your opinion -- what kinds of other things keep drawing you back to watch since it's not MS's performance? (BTW, I promise to watch Emma2 when it comes out on video with a completely open mind.) Cindy, LOL re \"-Everything else!\" That \"perhaps not\" moment is my fave. And again I ask -- if anyone finds a decent MS-as-Knightley picture, please share PRONTO!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (02:15)", "body": "Susan, it must be this very topic and all the excitiment amongst Emma3 people about how MS's facial expression shows this or that and his subtle gestures, overpowering only because it is not obvious to the impatient viewer the 1st or 2nd or 3rd time, that draws Emma2 fans to Emma3 video over and over again. But that's my excuse, that and the fact that Emma2 is not available. I would like to know why Kali watches it too- seeing how she almost banished me from Emma2 discussion because I mentioned how MS was growing on me!!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "janea", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (05:38)", "body": "Ladies, have you noticed that it doesn\ufffdt matter which of the adaptations we discuss - we always come back to how they _look_ at each other. The way Darcy looks at Lizzy, how Knightley looks at Emma, how Brandom looks at Marianne. It\ufffds wonderful how much they can say with their eyes. You can feel the love, the strong emotions. I love it!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (13:07)", "body": "I agree Jane. The looks are so important. There are many of these such looks between Emma and Mr. Knightly in Emma 3. I love the way Mr. KNightly looks at Emma at Christmas time after they have made up with each other. I read in the \"Making of\" book that the proposal scene was actually filmed in the first week. Interesting, I thought."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (13:10)", "body": "The proposal was also filmed very early for P&P."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (16:40)", "body": "Ann, that was the first proposal in P&P2 - it was filmed after only two weeks. But the second proposal was at the very end of shooting because they had to wait for the autumn foliage!!"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (17:51)", "body": "People, I don't doubt that Mark Strong's Knightley loves and wants Emma very much...however, his love is so often shown in such an odd way...like I said last month, so often he is forced to react explosively to her because he can't express his interest in her any other way. He acts like a father at the end of his rope, who can do nothing but \"Ka-BOOM!\" when the daughter does or says something stupid or detrimental. Certainly, the reaction is a natural one, but Strong so overuses it that it doesn't jibe ith the character, in my opinion. Since I have been corrupted by jeremy's influence, I am also aware of other, less rage-filled and sexually-frustrated portrayals (sexual frustration can be entertaining without being kosher to the book) which better fit my view of the character. I see Mr. Knightley as rather Apolline, rarely indulging in loud and obvious temper tantrums. This is not to say that he doesn't get crazy from time to time. Even Apollo had a temper - flayed Pan, bonked Hyacinth on the head w th a discus, and chased Daphne like Pepe Le Peu chases Penelope the cat - and Jeremy's knightley has one too (he physically roughs up Gwyneth at Box Hill...) In the novel, Mr. Knightley certainly exhibits his share of \"tall indignation,\" but it never becomes monotonously tiresome as it does in emma3 (he's supposed to have \"a cheerful manner which always did him good\"). Much of his bitterness (I thought this was supposed to by JOHN'S territory - John is supposed to be a foil to make George look like Mr. Happy/Thoughtful) is made public in this adaptation, whereas in the novel, most of his rage is contained and directed (vs. the haircut explosion, the duty comm nt at the party, and his very public rescue of Jane at the pianoforte - in the book, Mr. knightley suggests to Miss Bates that SHE ought to drag Jane away, and she does). Every time you see him, practically, he is ranting or complaining about something...the poor man just can't seem to relax (okay, I'll give him the carriage arrival at the Weston's and the \"Nonsensical girl!\" scene on that score...but it's written that he reacts playfully...oh, and yes, Susan, the kids...but who doesn't like kids? Mark Strong makes it obvious that he's a CARING grouch!). As I've said many times before, this portrayal is fine if we're speaking generally (there's lots of room for maneuvering inside this envelope, but sometimes we can push its edges!)...and to be honest (how many times must I repeat this?!), I really do enjoy some of his scenes (\"Badly done, indeed!\" and the proposal). He's an alright Knightley, and this is a very good production of my favorite novel of all time! I enjoy its treatment of the Frank and Jane affair, appreciate several of the portrayals (Prun lla Scales' Miss Bates, Guy Henry's John, etc.), and welcome this and any other decent treatments of such a wonderful story. Mark Strong's and Kate Beckinsale's performances (whether you consider them to be perfect or less than) do not loom so large that you can't enjoy the production as a whole."}, {"response": 50, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "JN \"physically roughs up Emma at BOX Hill\". OOOH KALI!! Why did that give me such pleasure? Perhaps Johanne is right-I am masochistic. I agree though. Strong's Mr Knightley was too one-dimensional to fulfill my expectations. He is either overwrought and angry or quiet and longing. The Box Hill scene really is a good point of comparison. Yes-Jeremy is angry, but his body language and tortured expressions tell another tale. When I took a friend to see the movie(she had never read the book), she thought he was going to take Emma in his arms-right there. She kept looking back, like Emma in the book, for him to return. Feel free to attack me."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (18:24)", "body": "I thought that they both did a damn good job with that scene, but Jeremy's was all the more powerful because he hadn't wasted the power of his ire in previous scenes. Go to http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/kalem2def.html for a better explanation on my part."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (03:42)", "body": "Kali & Cassendra, do the pair of you visit Emma3 just to continually rub Jeremy Knightley up against Mark Strong? I'm beginning to feel more 'sympathy' for MS now than ever. He was uptight but gentle, agressive but feelingly so. He came across more of the mature man capable of running that massive estate of his. Jeremy Knightley appeared somewhat (now..I'm going to be shot dead in my sleep!!) a little to playful for a man of 37 or 38. Yes, he was very cheerful and charming. But he was too obviously t e person for Emma right from the start. It was almost as though he was just hanging about waiting to be married to her. There was too much chemistry (though I loved it all) right from the beginning. Am I alone in this revelation??"}, {"response": 53, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:19)", "body": "Nope, we don't - really! It just keeps coming up because we can't help but compare the two when we're talking of one or the other...pray forgive us. And as for me, I've always seen the chemistry in the novel between Emma and Mr. Knightley...she's such a flirtatious little thing, and she doesn't even realize it (I don't blame the guy for falling like he does), and Mr. Knightley is so protective of her... Also, who says that men in their late thirties can't be charming and playful? It is written that he's cheerful...and it's obvious from the text that he has a wry sense of humor."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:21)", "body": "Oh, and as far as waiting around to marry Emma, the same could be said of Mark Strong, who gives the impression of a man embittered by the fact that the object of his desire is sexually oblivious to him."}, {"response": 55, "author": "janea", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:36)", "body": "For obvious reasons most of the discussion here is about Mr Knightley. But how about Emma? Am I the only one who is a little reluctant to Kate Beckinsale? If Mark Strong is the perfect Mr Knightley, is Kate B really the right Emma for him? Is she the right Emma for us? I don\ufffdt know if I prefer Gwenyth (do you spell it like that?) because I\ufffdve only seen Emma 2 once at the cinema and that\ufffds not enough (I\ufffdm longing for the videorelease) but I`m not all that fond of Kate. I\ufffdm writing this at work and have no ustenbooks here (can you imagine...) but isn\ufffdt Emma supposed to be 21 or something like that? That was quite an age then. I know you can\ufffdt compare the leading ladies from different JA books, but I think that Kate\ufffds Emma is so _young_ . Much more the same age as Lydia, then as Lizzy if you see what I mean."}, {"response": 56, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:36)", "body": "Kali, I didn't mean that man at 37 or 38 couldn't be charming. I meant only that he was a little too playful for someone with that amount of responsibility. I said he was charming and cheerful but that had nothing to do with the age he was. Did you really think MS's Knightley came across frustrated at his lack of appeal to Emma? I never thought about that before."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:40)", "body": "Jane, on that score, I felt Gweneth was the more becoming Emma of the two. Kate's Emma was too harsh and almost catty. I don't think I'm alone in this opinion."}, {"response": 58, "author": "janea", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (07:19)", "body": "Serena, I agree that she\ufffds almost catty. But don\ufffdt you think that she seems a little young to? She supposed to be spoiled and protected but also 21. To me she is more like 16 or 17."}, {"response": 59, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (08:10)", "body": "I guess so Jane, her mannerisms came across quite 'youngish'. How old is she?"}, {"response": 60, "author": "janea", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (09:31)", "body": "In real life you mean? I don\ufffdt know. I haven\ufffdt got my \"The making of....\" here at work. I guess she is 22-23 perhaps. But she seems much younger to me."}, {"response": 61, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (10:43)", "body": "Agree with both of you Serena and Jane, Kate B's portrayal way to harsh, spoiled brat type, even up-nose disdain can be seen which I cannot reconcile with the character. She does come out closer to Lydia than Lizzy, who's suppose to be the same age! Given that each script in their own context, Gwyneth comes out the true Emma and as Knightley I must admit a man with that much responsability and that much on his shoulder should come closer to MS altough without that much anger, but a personnality and composure probably more serious than the playfull and mischievous JN's. I can definitely hear the bows and arrows swooshing on target around my head and neck... But with this said, cannot wait to see it again and sure will be swept of my feet again and again by the wonderful Knightley (what a proper name) and find only praise, no faults, in this remarkable adaptation of Doug McGrath's Emma."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Hollis", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:03)", "body": "After watching Emma3 again, I have come to the conclusion that it is better than I originally thought. You have to really look for the nuances between Emma and Mr. Knightly, but they are there. I would have preferred Mark Strong to be a little more \"fun\" but I think he did a good job of showing the \"big brother\" attitude towards Emma. I had to really look though for the \"sexual\" awareness part that he has towards Emma. Kate does seem like a younger Emma than Gwyneth. I believe in real life they are close in age but Gwyneth Paltrow has an elegance about her that gives her a more mature air. Regardless I will be watching both versions over and over and over...."}, {"response": 63, "author": "bplaroch", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (13:15)", "body": "I have to say that I prefer GP to KB as Emma. Emma is supposed to be a bit snobbish, but in an endearing kind of way. I thought GP hit just the right note with this. KB, however, was almost leaning over to the \"Caroline Bingley\" end of the snob-o-meter in some ways. Some of the looks she gave Robert Martin! She also said some pretty b*****Y things. When Frank arrived all hot and bothered at the strawberry party and she said \"Choose your own degree of crossness,\" for example. I don't even think this l ne is in the book (or at least I can't find it). I think I would attribute (blame?) this more on the script and the direction than on KB herself. As some of us have said over in the Cold Comfort Farm discussion, KB's Flora was almost more Emma-like than Emma in Emma3. I have a question. If the Eltons are out to get revenge on Emma at the ball at the Crown, why are they so nice to her on their visit when they first come to Highbury?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (13:59)", "body": "\"do the pair of you visit Emma3 continually just to rub Jeremy Knightley up against Mark Strong..\" Oh comeon Serena-lighten up! This Knightley feud is pretty futile anyways. NOne of us are ever going to agree on who is the better Mr KNightley, especially me. As for JN being to playful-where does it say in the book that Mr Knightley is not playful? \"Mr Knightley had a cheerful manner which always did him good.\" Personally, I always saw the chemistry in the Knightley/Emma relationship; it was pretty obvious to me, practically from the begining, who she would/must marry. There are dozens of subtle hints/references; one of my favorites: Emma and Mr KNightley are bantering about who is best capable of taking care of the boys and \"Mr Knightley seemed to be trying not to smile...\" As for MS looking more commanding/capable of managing Donwell-this criticism of JN, again, is kinda despreate-grasping at straws. He has a definite commanding presence-the Box Hill scene is arguably the best example. The way he is the first to speak, offer his arm, after Miss Bates' humiliation. AS for the Eltons-They epitomize the \"two faced\" personality. Emma is after all Miss Woodhouse."}, {"response": 65, "author": "bplaroch", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (16:26)", "body": "I have to say that I prefer GP to KB as Emma. Emma is supposed to be a bit snobbish, but in an endearing kind of way. I thought GP hit just the right note with this. KB, however, was almost leaning over to the \"Caroline Bingley\" end of the snob-o-meter in some ways. Some of the looks she gave Robert Martin! She also said some pretty b*****Y things. When Frank arrived all hot and bothered at the strawberry party and she said \"Choose your own degree of crossness,\" for example. I don't even think this l ne is in the book (or at least I can't find it). I think I would attribute (blame?) this more on the script and the direction than on KB herself. As some of us have said over in the Cold Comfort Farm discussion, KB's Flora was almost more Emma-like than Emma in Emma3. I have a question. If the Eltons are out to get revenge on Emma at the ball at the Crown, why are they so nice to her on their visit when they first come to Highbury?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Mar 27, 1997 (01:33)", "body": "Two-faced, indeed! Get their digs in when they can... As far as Kate and Gwyneth... http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/kalem2def.html http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kip/kalem3rev.html"}, {"response": 67, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Mar 27, 1997 (18:54)", "body": "Kali, you're the only person to make it here in two days. We had to move our isp and are waiting for the new ip addresses to kick in. The InterNIC called and told me the chagnes should kick in sometime within 24 to 48 hours of 12 noon today, 10 pm EST tonight at the earliest. I'm sorry that this place has to go in to hibernation for so long."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Garson", "date": "Mon, Mar 31, 1997 (12:21)", "body": "Thank you, Terry, for the wake-up call on my e-mail. It drew me back to this conference, and the wonderful topic of Jane Austen. I think some of you are being too hard on the productions of EMMA. They were both wonderful and the actors did stupendous jobs. Think back, for all of you who have been reading Jane since high school and before, that until the last few years we had nothing (except, of course, the 1940 vintage, Hollywood-style film starring Greer Garson and Laurence Olivier - talk about drool!). But now we have so many excellent costume dramas depicting the people who've only been images in our reading receptacles! I t ink both the Mr. Knightleys did well. Jeremy Northam carried his part well opposite Gwyneth (was he better because he was opposite her? - the pretty, coquettish blonde?). And Mark Strong played his role with equal dash (anyone else see a similiarity between him and Matt Lauer of the TODAY SHOW on NBC? - Distant cousins? Hmmm. A modern-day Mr. Knightley). The only problem I have is with the authoress. Why oh why did Jane only live to write 6 novels? Would that she could have had today's medicine, and, say, lasted through our Civil War. What joys would then be in store?"}, {"response": 69, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Apr  1, 1997 (00:42)", "body": "Kim and Linda, please e-mail me at susan@kyeng.com to continue our discussion one-on-one! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 242, "subject": "Northanger Abbey", "response_count": 51, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (12:24)", "body": "Ok, I'll say it first. What the hell was that ? I always wondered why this one BBC adaptation wasn't sold in the set with the other five, now I know. Poor dear Jane must be spinning (or doing cartwheels?) in her grave! I hardly know where to begin. I guess I'll start with what bothered me the most, although it had nothing to do with the plot. What was with the costumes, hair and makeup? I could barely stand to look at some of these people. I thought the old BBC Persuasion set the standard for the Big-Hair Look, but this left it in the dust, and it was sticking out in the oddest places...The makeup was appalling, the Dowager Whomever looked like someone had had at her with a paint-by-numbers kit! As to the characters, I was truly offended by the way John Thorpe was portrayed. He was openly leering at Catherine! I expected him to smack his lips at any moment, disgusting! Ok, I'll let someone else take over for now, but I shall return! I have only just begun to dish!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (12:38)", "body": "I am half way through the novel and planned on watching my tape tonight. But after your comment, I think I will simply finish reading tonight. I found Thorpe to be incredibly annoying already; your description makes him sound like some of my worst dates!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:02)", "body": "Lynn -- you know what Jane Austen said: \"John Thorpe... was a stout young man of middling height, who, with a plain face and ungraceful form, seemed fearful of being too handsome unless he wore the dress of a groom, and too much like a gentleman unless he were easy where he ought to be civil, and impudent where he might be allowed to be easy.\" [...] \"...All the rest of his conversation, or rather talk, began and ended with himself and his own concerns. [...] Little as Catherine was in the habit of judging for herself, and unfixed as were her general notions of what men ought to be, she could not entirely repress a doubt, while she bore with the effusions of his endless conceit, of his being altogether completely agreeable. It was a bold surmise, for he was Isabella's brother; and she had been assured by James that his manners would recommend him to all her sex; but in spite of this, the extreme weariness of his company, which crept over her before they had been out an hour, and which continued unceasingly to increase till they stopped in Pulteney Street again, induced her, in some small degree, to resist such high authority, and to distrust his powers of giving universal pleasure.\""}, {"response": 4, "author": "Megan", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:13)", "body": "I read the novel for the first time two weeks ago and I enjoyed it very much. I didn't know that it was going to be shown on TV early this morning, so I rented the video last week. Talk about different interpretations. It was, ..well.., I am having a hard time to find the words to describe it, so I'll be polite and say, not the way I envisioned it at all. What a pity! And so unfortunate too. It could have been so entertaining. This was plain hard to watch. Since Cheryl and Lynn started talking about Thorpe, let me start from there also. Thorpe reminded me of one of those guys who are always around you when you are interested in somebody else (brought up some memories ;)). As much as I found him annoying, I found the situations created because of him very humorous (in the book of course). I also thought that his presence increased Catherine's anticipation and impatience to be with Mr. Tilney. And that was cute. I agree with Cheryl that he was portrayed to be way too disgusting in the movie. So disgusting that I can't imagine any humour associated with a character like that. What a disappointment! But worst of all, the dialogues and scenes I enjoyed the most in the novel were all either left out or misinterpreted. All of them! :( Megan"}, {"response": 5, "author": "doone", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:25)", "body": "Boy do I agree! I just watched the film this week, and I was like, WHAT WAS THAT! One question however, is Peter Firth (who played Mr. Tilney) related to Colin Firth? curious"}, {"response": 6, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (15:30)", "body": "No, Peter Firth and Colin Firth are not related. Colin does have an actor brother by the name of Jonathan, however. (I believe he has a sister as well, but I don't know her name.)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (16:01)", "body": "I haven't seen this for ages, but I didn't have Cheryl's violent reaction. I have to say -- when the actor who plays Henry (forgive me if I'm misremembering; haven't read the novel in 15 years) goes back for Catherine and finds her in the woods and smacks her one - baby, I'm down with that!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (16:06)", "body": "Amy2 -- that is a nice scene, albeit a little melodramatic. I have given up the idea that an adaptation is going to be faithful to the book, although I didn't as much humor from this adaptation as I would have hoped for."}, {"response": 9, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Mar 21, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "I had to find my tape of this (yes, I own all the Austen adaptations, I think, except P&P0). I skimmed through most of it. Now I remember that something about the ending bothered me when I watched it before -- it is filmed as though it is another fantasy, though not a Gothic Romantic fantasy. Did any of the major players besides Peter Firth and Robert Hardy do film/tv work that we would know in the US? I thought I recognized the actor who played Henry's brother, but the name is not familiar."}, {"response": 10, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (08:52)", "body": "It has been almost a year since I saw this one, but I remember only too well my reaction to it. Isn't it amazing that you could get such an awful movie out of a JA novel?! I mean P&P0 was not good, but if you had never read the book, you might still be entertained. With this, however, I don't think you would even know what was going ON if you hadn't read the book!! And even having read the book, you still don't know what is going on!! I can't remember the particulars of the movie itself, and I'm not ure if I can bring myself to watch it again. There was no humor in it at all, and NA is SO funny!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (10:40)", "body": "There is one very good thing about this movie. It is the \"Quirky\" adaptation tha inspired Andrew Davies and Sue Birtwhistle to do \" Pride and Prejudice an d to make it look like a fresh,lively story about real people\" So, without this adaptation, we wouldn't be together, right? (and CF might not havebeen such an inspiration to us!) Seriously, though I watch my copy for Robert Hardy, Googie Withers and Peter Firth, there are some bits of the adaptation I enjoy- Catherine in the Apple Tree, and the silly \"taking the waters\" scenes"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (11:18)", "body": "Re the waters scenes: What are those plates? Is it food? Is it like having a cocktail at a swim-up bar?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (12:34)", "body": "If a group of 8th graders wrote and produced an adaption of a JA novel, I would probably enjoy it. I got up early Friday morning, turned on the VCR and fell asleep at halftime. Maybe sometime this weekend, I will get the watch the movie from start to finish. Henry's first scene was so 'off center\" that I thought the writers had given his opening lines to a different character, but he improved in the scenes that included Elinor. The Thorpes were just what they should be - brash and vulgar. Mr. and Mrs. Allen were fine. The fantasy sequences were acceptable to show us Catherine's state of mine. The carriage scenes looked ok. Maybe, after I see the rest of the movie, I will see something to dislike!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (12:53)", "body": "Maybe Lynn hit on why I disliked this so much. I enjoy NA, it's not my favorite JA, but it has several very funny sequences and LOL spots. I didn't laugh once during this production. I grimaced, I gaped, I smirked, I snickered, I snorted, I groaned, I rolled my eyes, but I never laughed out loud. The closest I came was during one of the fantasy sequences when the old lady was sewing her fingers together and that was more of a \"I can't believe they're doing that!\" than alaugh. \"Quirky\", indeed!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "Now I remember that Bath scene, where everyone is wearing a formal hat and a buttoned-up bathing costume, not to mention their dragging a tray of goodies around! Henry or someone - is this historically accurate? Or just another \"quirky\" touch?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (13:54)", "body": "Wow -- where to start here...there is so much to comment on: First of all I taped it and I will probably watch it again (and even more than twice). I admit it, I am a hopeless JA junkie, and will satisfy myself with the \"cheep drugs\" (such as this bad production) as well as the \"expensive drugs\" (such as the very well done productions) The actress who played Catherine, I thought quite good. She seemed to portray with her eyes the essence of the character...seeing something right in front of her but so naive, that she just doesn't get it. The rest of the cast, ummm, how can I put this delicately, PeeEww!!! I did not like the costuming -- It was just too much...I much prefer the simplicity of P&P2 or Persuassion. As far as the adaption itself, I thought just OK -- Although what I simply cannot forgive was leaving out what I thought the most delightful scene in the whole book -- The conversation between Henry & Catherine in the carriage on the way to NA. In fact, I remember while reading the book, quite often I would have to exclaim right out loud \"delightful!\". I believe that the \"movie makers\" here lost this point...they seemed (especially with the music thoughout) to try to concentrate on the \"Gothic\" and not he perception of the young girl perceiving the \"Gothic\"."}, {"response": 17, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (14:04)", "body": "Wow -- where to start here...there is so much to comment on: First of all I taped it and I will probably watch it again (and even more than twice). I admit it, I am a hopeless JA junkie, and will satisfy myself with the \"cheep drugs\" (such as this bad production) as well as the \"expensive drugs\" (such as the very well done productions) The actress who played Catherine, I thought quite good. She seemed to portray with her eyes the essence of the character...seeing something right in front of her but so naive, that she just doesn't get it. The rest of the cast, ummm, how can I put this delicately, PeeEww!!! I did not like the costuming -- It was just too much...I much prefer the simplicity of P&P2 or Persuassion. As far as the adaption itself, I thought just OK -- Although what I simply cannot forgive was leaving out what I thought the most delightful scene in the whole book -- The conversation between Henry & Catherine in the carriage on the way to NA. In fact, I remember while reading the book, quite often I would have to exclaim right out loud \"delightful!\". I believe that the \"movie makers\" here lost this point...they seemed (especially with the music thoughout) to try to concentrate on the \"Gothic\" and not he perception of the young girl perceiving the \"Gothic\"."}, {"response": 18, "author": "candace", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (14:04)", "body": "I did not post this twice!!!!!!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (15:02)", "body": "The costumes,hair, and make-up reminded me of the \"Restoration\" era. a gothic novel-Of a style of fiction that emphasizes the grotesque and mysterious. ] I believe that the \"movie makers\" here lost this point...they seemed (especially with the music thoughout) to try to concentrate on the \"Gothic\" and not the perception of the young girl perceiving the \"Gothic\". I agree Candace. Who said this was a gothic novel? While I was reading I thought it was more a comedy and about a young girls \"wild\" imagination. Compared to the book the movie was all wrong."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:51)", "body": "Ok, the music...did it remind anyone else of the horrendously insipid music they use in soft-core porn movies? ;-) (never mind how I know!)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (16:53)", "body": "Oh, Cheryl, maybe you should hie yourself to confession? ;-)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (17:55)", "body": "soft-core porn - which I know I would love but do not know how to find - or how to recognize. Can someone steer a middle-class, middle-age, small-town mother in the right direction?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (17:55)", "body": "I did not post that!!!!!!!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Karen", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (19:53)", "body": "Cheryl - ROTFLOL!! I kept trying to put my finger on where have I heard bad music like this before. It's that bad filler music that is trying to portray so type of depth or tension. It accompanies bad \"B\" movies as well. Though I haven't read NA yet I kept thinking what were these people thinking. It didn't have JA's witty humor. So much was over the top such as John Thropes character. But as Caroline has reminded us, good things can happen from bad movies. This \"quirky\" adaptation inspired P&P2; amazing isn't it;-)"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (20:07)", "body": "Katy dearest, one does not have to go looking for soft-core porn... I have certainly never gone looking for it, it simply appears on your TV as you are channel surfing through HBO or Showtime...suddenly there are these naked bodies and this awful music and it's like a car crash, you can't avert your eyes..."}, {"response": 26, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (21:20)", "body": "- oh no. that is why we discontinued HBO and Showtime - fav. teen is the only one who can stay up taht late!!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (22:25)", "body": "well, there you go! ;-)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sat, Mar 22, 1997 (23:50)", "body": "When she goes off to college!!!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (00:41)", "body": "\"it simply appears on your TV as you are channel surfing through HBO\" Such as Playmaker , perhaps?"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (02:57)", "body": "]Such as Playmaker, perhaps? ______ Oh, but Ann, Playmakers has that one redeeming feature that makes it all worthwhile...;-P\""}, {"response": 31, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "I do believe that the credits were inaccurate...I am sure that the person who portrayed the General's confidant was really played by Keith Richard of the Rolling Stones, or was it Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith? Can someone explain the scene to me in which the little boy takes Catherine outside and does cartwheels? What was that? I certainly didn't get it."}, {"response": 32, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (13:37)", "body": "AG, Candace!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "kendall", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:04)", "body": "I finished the tape today. I enjoyed it. no, it would not win any fans for the story or for JA, but I enjoyed it anyway. I liked the lawn scenes at the parsonage at the end. I though the general was spot on. but as I admitted earlier in this thread, I would enjoy any JA adaption. (but I hope no one messes with lady catherine again like P&P0 did!)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "Cheryl : What was with the costumes, hair and makeup? As Henry Tilney mentions beheadings by guillotine and Jacobin partisanerie, this was then rather set around 1794-95. Time of the Directory Government in France and a Royal Proclamation against public meetings in England. If set then, it's in accordance with the times in the very early part of the Regency http://humanitas.ucsb.edu/projects/pack/rom-chrono/chrono5a.htm Kathleen : Did any of the major players besides Peter Firth and Robert Hardy do film/tv work Candace : he person who portrayed the General's confidant was really played by Keith Richard of the Rolling Stones, or was it Stephen Tyler of Aerosmith? Speachless, ROTFLOL haven't laugh like this in a long time !!! also : Can someone explain the scene to me in which the little boy takes Catherine outside and does cartwheels? What was that? I certainly didn't get it. Neither did I..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (17:01)", "body": "The hat/hair thing that really intrigued/confused me was the long curls coming out of some slits in the hat fabric? I know I missed some of the actors' lines just trying to figure it out."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:01)", "body": "Just rewatched NA last night, and am nearly through with re-reading the book. One thing I noticed in re-reading the original is that JA's voice is much more present than in any other book of hers -- she is the ironic narrator from beginning to end, and that gives the whole story its humour! I just love the very beginning where she introduces the Morland family: \"Her father was a clergyman, without being neglected or poor, and a very respectable man, though his name was Richard, and he had never been handsome.\" And about Catherine: \"She never could learn or understand anything before she was taught, and sometimes not even then, for she was often inattentive, and occasionally stupid.\" These humorous bits would have been impossible to put on film, but it does set up the whole story to the point you know you're not meant to take it seriously.! I didn't mind the film - the dream sequences I thought were overdone and when they passed N.A. on the way to Bath it was all wrong - they didn't pass it and the abbey was quite differently described in the book. I thought Catherine, the Allens and the General and even her parents were good in their roles. But I didn't care for Peter Firth at all -- just didn't like his looks, his smirks, his small eyes. John Thorpe, I thought, looked like everybody's idea of a second-hand car salesman and Isabella was uitably stupid. But what was that bathing scene doing there? And WHO was that confidante of the General's?? BTW - during the bathing scene all I could do was giggle and think about a similar scene in \"The Advocate\"! Maybe there was something to be said for the medieval French lack of inhibitions!! Didn't understand the boy's cartwheel scene at all, nor even the need for the small boy! Well - it wasn't JA or even N.A. as in the book, but I suppose we could call it an amusing diversion!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "churchh", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (03:37)", "body": "The book Northanger Abbey seems to be set about 1798-1799, during the same period when Jane Austen was actually working on Susan (the original version of Northanger Abbey -- Catherine Morland was originally named \"Susan\"). A lot of the gothic novels mentioned by Isabella were first published in 1798 or 1797."}, {"response": 38, "author": "LynnM", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (08:57)", "body": "Well, I watched the movie on Friday night and finished the novel over the weekend. I could not match the two - I thought the movie was awful. Everytime I saw John Thorpe, he re-reminded me of Bugger from \"Revenge of the Nerds\". And the gothic music - this is not a movie I want to see again. Maybe if it was presented more like \"Alice in Wonderland\", it certainly had that feel about it."}, {"response": 39, "author": "doone", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (09:44)", "body": "wasn't the general played by the same actor from Sense & Sensibility2? I kept thinking were do I know this voice from."}, {"response": 40, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (11:18)", "body": "A while back Caroline nicely lend me her tape and here were my first impressions as given to her then : What can I say... I'm REALLY speechless. First because when I read the novel there were some passages I wasnt sure I comprehended fully but the viewing is not resolving this issue. The first thing is that it's not at all faitfull to the book although I believe it presents some basic concepts and emotions. If you discart any comparison to the book, as a movie by itself it was very enternaining. The music is cheesy but rather hypnotising. It follows you, giving a gothic feel, reminds me of bad rendition of Philip Glass. As a reminder of the punk era prevalent in the 80's,at the time of the filming, here is the Marchioness which/witch is not existant in the novel. Did'nt think much of the actress playing Cath, she acted well but too much in the same vein which is the innocent one from beginning to end, you do 't see any change nor maturity in her, was this what JA intended? to surreal. As for Mr. Firth's portrayal, well, the intent was probably to distinguish a very much accomplish modern man for the time, thus the singing and understanding much more refined compare to the older generation, like is unmannered, unrefined and vulgar father (I can hear Ms Bingley say : \"the singing, Louisa, the singing...\"). Altough he is not a particularly good looking man, Mr. Firth did'nt leave me cold. It's my first encounter with this actor and he mesmerized me. There is a definite teasing, flirtaciou way in his play, and I found this very becoming. Some aspects of an accomplished man at the time must have seen rather sissyish to a man like his father. Have they played the gothic theme just a tad to much? And what of the romantic scene, especially at the end? Not at all JA, but I enjoyed these very much for the sheer pleasure of romance. After numerous viewing now I'm more indulgent on this movie and of Catherine's portrayal but still enjoy the plain romance in it. Although you have to discart this as any type of JA rendition, like other movies, it grows on you."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (13:07)", "body": "You were right about the voices, Lorna. General Tilney and Sir John in S&S2 are played by another favourite of mine Robert Hardy. Remember him as a favourite of Queen Elizabeth I in a British film(1971:Elizabeth R available on video with Glenda Jackson as the queen.) It was not Essex, she called him Robin...I've been to the remainders of his castle in England. No, memory fails."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (19:22)", "body": "Dear LornaDoone(nice name by the way, Exmoor's one of my favourite places) Robert Hardy- as in \"Middlemarch\", \"All Creatures Great and Small\" several \"Miss Marples\" and just about every other Brit Costume Classic of the last two decades, is the General."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (19:42)", "body": "Did you all notice the peacocks on Catherine's arrival at the abbey? Remember that whole debate? I could not find it in the old board archives. Now, what is the story about this became the inspiration for P&P2? I don't understand."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (21:27)", "body": "Amy- I quoted from \"The Making OF P&P\", Introduction, first paragraph, by Sue Birtwhistle. Apparently, she and Andrew Davies were watching this production together when they got the idea for P&P."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (21:30)", "body": "Peacocks-did you mean the Rooks cawing in the \"Lettr\" scene? It's at the beginning of the second \"adaptation\" archive, I think."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (21:59)", "body": "Robert Hardy, also, as Churchill. One of his best roles, IMHO, and he really looked like Churchill!!"}, {"response": 47, "author": "Amy", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (23:49)", "body": "We should watch this together on line in the drawing room. I'd kind of hate to do it with a movie that needs to be attended to and worshipped. But this one would be appropriately Mystery Science 2000-like."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (00:26)", "body": "Amy: Mystery Science 3000-like. Definately! We could come up with much better lines than the writers did! ;-)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (00:29)", "body": "I think it would be a hoot to do P&P2 that way. We all know it so well, that we wouldn't exactly have to be attentive to the screen while watching."}, {"response": 50, "author": "janea", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (03:38)", "body": "I bought Northanger Abbey some months ago. I was very glad when I found it, \ufffdcause I thought it was something like the other adaptations. But it is horrible! I watched halfway and then I gave up. Now I\ufffdm gonna watch it again. Not because I think it\ufffdll be better, but because it\ufffds so fun discussing with you."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Vivsy", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "I just watched NA yesterday. Yuccckkkk!!!! I had previously read the book. A lot of it didn't seem to match. Candace your remarks about Stephen Tyler and Keith Richards--ROFLOL. It seems to be doing them an injustice. I believe that even Dennis Rodman uses less makeup. The food plates in the bath were a mystery to me. The hair and makeup of the Thorpes was too much. I know they're supposed to be crass, But come on. Henry Tilney was okay once they left Bath. Catherine did a good job. I don't think I could watch it again unless it was a Mystery Science Theater 3000 experience. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 244, "subject": "Cold Comfort Farm", "response_count": 8, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (00:50)", "body": "I saw something nasty in the woodshed! Of course you did deary, but did it see you?!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "bplaroch", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (01:40)", "body": "LOL, Ann! Okay, I am going to say this so it seems like I actually had an original thought... Does anyone think that Flora was very Emma-like in her desire to improve others, fix up their lives and generally orchestrate everything going on around her?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (03:19)", "body": "What a thoroughly, absolutely delightful little hoot of a movie! I really liked this one, and found it a lot of fun -- no, excuse me, I found it amusing and diverting. Favorite moments: When Flora covers her cup to keep Mr. Myberg's conversational spray from getting into it. When Adam yanks her away from the restaurant after she leaves his sermon, melodramatically saying, \"Come, lady! It's back to Cold Comfort for you!\" When Mr. Myberg says \"Miss Post, I love you!\" on the dance floor at the Haltermonitors (sp?). Awhile back, we talked on one of the threads about certain phrases to be sung out in unison at showings. I would like to suggest: Robert Post's child! I saw something nasty in the woodshed. (Yes, Ann, love the \"But did it see you, baby?\" Sure stops her in her tracks, doesn't it?) There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm. Did you notice how everyone in the movie was moving their lips to the last two? Rufus Sewell, although I can see the commotion about him, didn't do it for me. He reminded me a little of Marty Feldman (I think it was the eyes), and the kinky hair was a turn-off, but I liked his character. ]Does anyone think that Flora was very Emma-like in her desire to improve others, fix up their lives and generally orchestrate everything going on around her? _____ I definitely did, Barbara. In fact, I kept thinking about how I could see why they wanted her to play Emma, because she'd already had some practice. She was a lot more successful here, though. I did get a kick out of her and Charles's comments to each other at the end: \"You know, I never did approve of you interfering in other people's lives. So I shan't be allowed to interfere in yours?\""}, {"response": 4, "author": "Andee1", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "I definitely saw the connection between Flora and Emma, but I liked Flora much better for her meddling. She wasn't just looking to make the people married, she was helping them make themselves truly happy and follow ams. Truly a delightful film-I'm making the video store angry I'm sure, because I didn't return it on time, so I could watch it again. Kate Beckinsale was perfect in this role, much more so than in Emma3. I cracks me up how she is so nonchalant about moving in with the Starkadders, (as there have always been Starkadders on Cold Comfort Farm). Emma I think would have rather died than move in that circle. Any guesses as to 1. What the nasty in the woodshed was? and 2. What the great wrong was that was commited against Flora's father? Let's use our imaginations!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (12:07)", "body": "Loved the movie! After so many years, I've finally figured out what the Kinks song \"Muswell Hillbilly's\" is about. ;-)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "kimmer", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:35)", "body": "Susan, watch Rufus Sewll in Middlemarch. Much better there. I enjoyed this movie, too. It made me laugh quite a bit."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Nina", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "I also liked this movie a lot. I agree that Kate Bekinsale is more Emma-like in this movie than in Emma3. One of my favorite lines was when Mr. Neck, the hollywood producer (after surveying the house at Cold Comfort) said, \"Is the house of usher open? May I come in?\" Some other funny moments were when the men were chasing after the bull and the \"quivering bretheren\" section. Also, I found it interesting that they only strayed from the plot of the book once. In the book it is Mr. Meyerbug who i enamored by Rennet, not Reuben. Does anyone have a guess as to why they changed that one point? Anyway, I thought that Cold Comfort Farm was a great movie and I definitely recommend it."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:22)", "body": "This movie gave me a good solid laught almost from the very beginning, with Joanna Lumley. I really liked Kate Beckinsale - and yes, she's Emma but not the Emma of J.A. or Clueless - she's really Emma who is clued in to making everyone happy. One of the funniest moments not mentioned yet is when Seth goes off to Hollywood with the GWTW theme playing as they drive away - I really cracked up over that one! Nina, maybe they changed Mr. Mybug for Reuben because who could feel enamored by Stephen Fry!!;-) SF is going to be Oscar Wilde in an upcoming film, and I think he was practising for the part here!! I thoroughly enjoyed this diversion and will have to watch it again later tonight, if I don't fall asleep first! It's due back tomorrow! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 246, "subject": "What makes Darcy so appealing as a character?", "response_count": 33, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "LKenn", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (10:46)", "body": "I think one of the reasons we love Darcy is that we, like Elizabeth, start out disliking him so very much because of his conceited aloofness and his self-absorbed sense of superiority, but grow to understand and love him as we see his more gentle and caring qualities spill forth. It is in his more unguarded moments with Elizabeth after her reproach of him and his subsequent letter to her that he allows himself to express the warm, generous, & loving parts of his character that he keeps so rigidly in check \"Neither of us perform to strangers.\" I think he always wanted to express to her (especially at the Netherfield Ball) that he was not this cold, unfeeling clod but never got the chance because Elizabeth's preconceived notions about his character prevented him from opening up to her. Initially Darcy's door was closed to Elizabeth (She is tolerable, I suppose.....\", but at this point her door is closed to him based on his alleged treatment of Wickham. SORRY if I'm rambling....."}, {"response": 2, "author": "candace", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (12:19)", "body": "No, Linda -- you make complete sense. I must confess, that I saw the show before reading the book. I too thought Darcy too proud, all the way through until Pemberly...just as Lizzie did. Then each time I re-watched the parts where I had previously thought him to be rude, I understood what the man was about and he seemed endearing. Upon first viewing, I thought him to be a complete jerk at the first proposal...now I can't help but exclaim out loud \"Poor man! He is suffering so!\""}, {"response": 3, "author": "Dina", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "He muddles socially, his bravado and superiority are only covering up his accute shyness and inadequacies in social settings. When we learn this, he becomes more real. When he is kind to Lizzie and the Gardners at Pemberly, we'll fogive him anything he's done wrong in the past."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (13:28)", "body": "I think what I like most about Darcy, what is really most attractive about him, is his love for Elizabeth. The fact that he remains so tortured by the thought of her, by the thought of his ungracious proposal, and by the knowledge that she is (presumably) lost to him forever is powerfully attractive to me. It goes beyond \"oh, he's so vulnerable\" into the realm that to be loved with such devotion, even when she's not behaved in a way which would engender such care and concern, means that he loves her so otally and completely that he can allow her the luxury of being less than perfect. It's also his struggle to bring himself up to her standard of gentlemanly behavior, yet not expecting her to change. He loves her for what she is."}, {"response": 5, "author": "EmilyinFlorida", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:47)", "body": "I think what I love most about Darcy is his compassion--how he saved the Bennents from disgrace with Lydia, with his sister,etc. And also how much he loves Lizzy. One of my favorate parts is when he has just finished fencing and says \"I must conquer this\". That to me is just sooo sweet that he loves Lizzy so much that it's tormenting him that she turned him down."}, {"response": 6, "author": "EmilyinFlorida", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (14:49)", "body": "I think what I love most about Darcy is his compassion--how he saved the Bennents from disgrace with Lydia, with his sister,etc. And also how much he loves Lizzy. One of my favorate parts is when he has just finished fencing and says \"I must conquer this\". That to me is just sooo sweet that his love for Lizzy is so great that he is in pain."}, {"response": 7, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:00)", "body": "I love Darcy the most during the Pemberley scenes. He is so eager to prove to Elizabeth that he's not so mean as to resent the past. And of course-when he goes to London to track Wickham and Lydia down. He does it for her and let's Mr Gardiner take the credit. That's terribly romantic."}, {"response": 8, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (15:23)", "body": "And Cassandra, don't you think all the effort he took with the Gardiners must have been difficult for him? (I mentioned this in another thread). He was so painfully shy that he was rude at the Meryton ball, but when her realizes how wrong he has been, he makes a great effort to show Elizabeth that he has taken her words to heart. And for a shy person, it must have been hard to be so outwardly polite with the Gardiners. I love that about him. And it IS so romantic that he lets Mr. Gardiner take the credit. If Lydia had never blurted it out, Lizzy might never have known!!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "allyson", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:15)", "body": "Oh my, what makes Darcy so appealing...hmm. (please forgive me if I make a fool of myself, this is my first time here). What makes Darcy so appealing, to me at least, is his undying and unfaltering love for Elizabeth. Sure, he didn't start out on the right foot with Lizzy, but just the way he persisted, and changed his attitude for her. I think he became the \"tortured soul\" quite well. The scene where Darcy forcefully chanted \"I will conquer this\" (or something of the sort) after he completed fencing (am I right?) pops into my head. He just was not willing to let her get away. You've got to love a man who is willing to do anything for the woman he is in love with. I love his eyes too. Yes, I know it's Firth I'm talking about, but I just *had* to say it."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:50)", "body": "Darcy's great appeal to me, (in addition to his cleverness, integrity, and devotion to family and friends), is his independence of mind and magnanimity. His independence of mind is evident in the manner in which he reverses his feelings toward Elizabeth. After initially snubbing her, Darcy becomes intrigued when she twice declines to dance with him (once at the Assembly and later during Jane's illness at Netherfield). A truly proud and less independent- thinking man would have remained resentful and not ventured the humiliation of an almost certain third rejection. Only a secure individual could find playfulness in Lizzy's direct verbal assaults: \"now despise me if you dare.'' Darcy's magnanimity is demonstrated when, after Lizzy's bitter rejection of his first proposal, he listens to his heart and acknowledges to himself the truth of her accusations concerning his pride and incivility. In parallel with Lizzy's self-discovery, Lizzy's rejection shocks him into seeing for the first time just how shallow his wealth and social status have made him. As he admitted to Lizzy after their engagement: \"You taught me a lesson, hard indeed at first, but most advantageous. By you, I was properly humbled. I came to you without a doubt of my reception. You shewed me how insufficient were all my pretensions to please a woman worthy of being pleased. '' When teasing Darcy after their engagement, Lizzy neatly summarizes the reason for his becoming attracted to her: ... The fact is, that you were sick of civility, of deference, of officious attention. You were disgusted with the women who were always speaking, and looking, and thinking for your approbation alone. I roused, and interested you, because I was so unlike them. Had you not been really amiable, you would have hated me for it; but in spite of the pains you took to disguise yourself, your feelings were always noble and just; and in your heart, you thoroughly despised the persons who so assiduously courted you. '' For all his wealth and social status, Darcy chose not to submit to the familial claim of fortune and the societal claim of honorable class connection; but rather chose to recognize what was truly valuable and took an independent path. By avoiding resentment and by owning the justice of Lizzy's complaints, Darcy followed his heart and developed a truly magnanimous spirit. That to me is a very appealing individual."}, {"response": 11, "author": "IF", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (16:57)", "body": "Don't you just love determination in a man."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:57)", "body": "Strong, silent, respectable, appreciative and passionately loyal in his affections. Wow, what a combination."}, {"response": 13, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:59)", "body": "Passionate is defintely the correct word! Also, enigmatic and complex. One thing is certain-Lizzy won't be bored married to Mr Darcy!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (20:02)", "body": "Well, (sorry Amy) but if Darcy was to resemble Colin Firth in any way, guess she'll be leaving the lights on.."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:09)", "body": "...each time I re-watched the parts where I had previously thought him to be rude, I understood what the man was about and he seemed endearing. Upon first viewing, I thought him to be a complete jerk at the first proposal...now I can't help but exclaim out loud \"Poor man! He is suffering so!\" ...don't you think all the effort he took with the Gardiners must have been difficult for him? (I mentioned this in another thread). He was so painfully shy that he was rude at the Meryton ball, but when her realizes how wrong he has been, he makes a great effort to show Elizabeth that he has taken her words to heart. And for a shy person, it must have been hard to be so outwardly polite with the Gardiners. I love that about him. Double ditto. Candace and Lynn, you made it really easy for me and said it much better than I could have. These are the things I love about him, too."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:18)", "body": "I think it is partly the fact that he grows so much in the course of the story. We all like to think that we can change the men in our lives, this just playes into that fantasy."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Megan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:52)", "body": "Okay you guys, I am making a list. Here\ufffds why I like this character so much. Sorry if I make any repetitions, looks like it\ufffds going to be a long one. I truly believe that JA sat down and made such a list of every possible characteristic that women love or look for in men and created Darcy ;-) Anyway, here is my list, not necessarily in the order of importance, since I don't know which side of him I admire the most : ) 1) He is honest, sincere and truthful, even with himself. 2) He is open minded and willing to admit his faults and mistakes. 3) He is willing to improve himself and alter his behaviour for the better. ( I don\ufffdt mean this in the sense of the traditional argument between men and women, that women want to change men. I don\ufffdt think he truly changes for her. He just realizes that he has been misrepresenting himself in social settings. Although there are no men likely to read this, I just thought I should clear it up and not cause any arguments. Men tend to be very sensitive about this issue. I don\ufffdt know why ;-)) 4) He is respectable, trustworthy and truly noble. 5) He is generous. 6) He is very much capable of unconditional love. 7) He respects the woman he loves. 8) He has a strong sense of responsibility and a powerful conscience.( He can\ufffdt live with the possibility of his mistakes costing anyone any pain or unhappiness.) 9) He is intelligent and well educated. 10) He is decisive. He knows what he wants and goes after it, no matter what. 11) He is a problem solver. 12) He is caring and concerned for the well-being of people around him. 13) He is passionate. 14) He is vulnerable. 15) He is realistic. 16) He is observant, fair and objective. 17) He admires her 'for the liveliness of her mind'.(prefers meaningful relationships) 18) He is very mature, capable and self-reliant. 19) He is handsome, rich and tall. 20) He is a true gentleman with a gentle and courteous soul. 21) He has a good sense of humour. (just the right amount) 22) He does not have any bad habits. Did I leave anything out?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (00:31)", "body": "\"Although there are no men likely to read this\" Henry, Bill, Ian, Eric and even Mike might like to dispute that."}, {"response": 19, "author": "kjones", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (01:28)", "body": "I think Darcy's 'humaness\" endears him most to me. Perhaps I have read the book too many times to see his rudeness now. I love the fact that Darcy is able to put aside the social and familial pressures of marrying \"below him\" if you'll allow me. His love for Elizabeth is unwavering. All the romantic broo-ha-ha is very valid (I know I'm rambling - please bear with me) However, Darcy shows himself to be a man in the true sense of the word. Until he professes his love to Lizzy and she so harshly rejects him, he felt his class, money, and his own self esteem was enough to endear ANY woman, much less a woman of a lower class. I don't believe he ever saw himself through any one else's eyes (except Caroline Bingley's) until Lizzy voiced her opinion of his pride and arrogance. So far, Darcy has exhibited every characteristic known to man (as a gender). However - Darcy grows S OO much! He is able to self -examine and realize the consequences of his previous actions and appreciate that others see may see him differently than he sees himself. Henceforth, Darcy's actions, and later words, show us that he has been able to recognize his faults and has endeavored to overcome them. Does any of this make sense? I guess, in summary, Darcy makes a concious effort to recognize his faults, account for them, and grow to overcome / adapt to them. Yet one thing remains constant, and that is his love for Lizzy. What more could a woman want?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Megan", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (01:41)", "body": "Sorry Ann, I am new and didn't notice that there were that many men in this conference. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Anyway, it's late, I am sleepy and obviously making mistakes. Please disregard that remark. Megan"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Serena", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (02:33)", "body": "Megan, you can do no wrong in my books now after that complete summary of Mr Darcy, that poor man who suffered so humiliating a rejection and came out a better person for it. Yes, Ann, if the only thing he did was to change for Lizzy, it would be enough for me. Amy, I can't stay away from this topic, I have been in love with Darcy since I was 12 years old, this sounding more and more liike a hopeless case the older I grow."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (10:46)", "body": "I cannot help but think of the truely mean things Darcy says in the beginning. Like: To stand up with company such as this would be utterly insupportable and I would as soon call her mother a wit . Is this his insecurty talking? If he is basically a kind person, why would he say things like this, even to his closest friends? I think the slams dished out to Caroline Bingley at the end are a little more civil, for some time I have considered her one of the handsomest women of my acquaintan e . Any opinions about this?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "joanna", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (15:31)", "body": "Who can resist responding to this topic? And who can really disagree with most of what has been said? He is handsome, passionate, kind, generous. Further, what were previously perceived as major flaws of pride and arrogance are later revealed to be endearing qualities as he seeks to overcome them for Lizzy. I would like to add one big one for me--as we finally see Pemberly--its glories, its size--he is the \"master\" of Pemberly and \"There is not one of his tenants or servants but will give him a good name.\" To be adored by someone like this! Heavy sigh!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (16:46)", "body": "Dina: I cannot help but think of the truely mean things Darcy says in the beginning. Like: To stand up with company such as this would be utterly insupportable and I would as soon call her mother a wit. Is this his insecurty talking? If he is basically a kind person, why would he say things like this, even to his closest friends? I think the slams dished out to Caroline Bingley at the end are a little more civil, for some time I have considered her one of the handsomest women of my acquaintance. I tend to attribute much of that early \"cutting\" wit to the influence of Caroline Bingley. She is always making snide comments concerning others to Darcy; ostensibly for his enjoyment. I believe he did enjoy acting that way at first (to cover insecurity? maybe), but as he is made aware of Lizzy's good qualities, and his own failings, snide comments become tiresome and he makes an effort to improve. At any rate, blaming Caroline makes me feel better! ;)"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Megan", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (17:10)", "body": "\"To stand up with company such as this would be utterly insupportable\" When Bingley insists on Darcy's dancing his complete statement is: \" I certainly shall not. You know how I detest it, unless I am particularly acquainted with my partner. At such an assembly as this, it would be insupportable. Your sisters are engaged, and there is not other woman in the room, whom it would not be a punishment to me to stand up with.\" Before I say anything, let me warn you that I am one of those people who immediately liked Darcy. Yes, even at the beginning, long before Pemberly. So, I'll probably sound like his advocate here. This sentence shocks me a little but what I understand from it that this person is not comfortable in this particular social setting. He doesn't know anybody. He is not used to be around people of this type of social or economical background. (Mrs. Gardiner later states that they moved in different social circles, for example). He feels a little out of place. Yet he is there, if he was a proud person, truly thinking low of that community, he would not have come. His pride here is sort of a form of ration lization of his own discomfort, I think... I cannot blame him for wanting to only dance with women he knows. Actually, I respect him for that. He sticks to this policy until the very end. This just means that when he dances with a woman, he is truly singling her out, pays her a complement. In Bingley's case for example, the distinguishment is in how many dances he dances with each partner. If he dances two with Jane and one with Charlotte, it means he likes Jane better. But for Darcy, when he asks a woman, it is much more than a casual event. Beca se of this comment, and also the two refusals on both parts, the dance scene at Netherfield is so powerful. (I also find it very amusing. Something to laugh at in a man who is not to be laughed at.) Regarding, \"She a beauty!- I should as soon call her mother a wit\" Lizzy is not supposed to be beautiful in the general sense. This is his first impression of her and he is truly honest. But don't we all admire him for going beyond the first impressions and find the true beauty in her, the everlasting one? Something Lizzy failed to do at the beginning and couldn't see beyond his so-called pride. She also couldn't see what Wickham was all about. So, Lizzy couldn't handle her first impressions and prejudices as well as Darcy did. I see this sentence as a proof of one of hi admirable traits. As, for calling her mother a wit, well, he is right isn't he? Although impolite, he is still fair and honest. We can always blame the rudeness and the mockery on the bad influence of Bingley's sisters, after all he says this in their company. :) Well, seriously, sometimes honesty comes out rude depending on the company. I see both of these remarks as a way of emphasizing his wonderful characteristics that are revealed later on, which happen to be extremely hard to find in men. The big difference in his civility between the beginning and the end of the novel gives us a measure of the magnitude of the many capabilities of this man and increases the intensity of our appreciation of him. It is because of comments as these, we understand that his love for her is deep and true and forever... Megan"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Megan", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (17:16)", "body": "Hey, Tracey! I see you got to blame Caroline before I did, when I was busy writing. ;) I guess we think alike, huh?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (17:29)", "body": "Megan, I'm with you on your take on Darcy. I've also always liked him from the very beginning. I always think of him as shy and uncomfortable in strange surroundings, yet he went to the Assembly because his friend asked him to, which to me shows his kindness to his friends. In the TV series, when Mrs. B. tells him \"you will not find prettier partners or livlier music\" he merely bows and turns away and holds his tongue, although if he had been truly rude he could have said a lot to contradict her! Can you really blame him, considering her look at Lizzie and her tone of voice? I can't! He may have seemed proud to the Meryton people but he never seemed that proud to me -- just reserved! But then, he's been a perfect hero since I first read P&P at about age 12 or 13!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Dina", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "Megan, WOW! I don't agree with all you said, but you made some excellent points I had not thought of. Just because what he said about Mrs. B. is true doesn't make it o.k. to say it that sharply. I think I want to see him more insecure as he appears later. Or if he is the man you describe in #12 & 20 above, why did he behave so rudely (do some of your wonderful characteristics seem contrary to one another)? Thanks for you comments. I love Darcy (of course, or would I be here!?!?). Tracey, I am not ure I can buy into the Carloline thing, yes, she may have influenced his comments, but that doesn't necessarily excuse his behavior. I guess I just see him too \"superior\" and want him to fall a few notches, which he does. I just think he is a bit too rude, not shy."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:05)", "body": "Perhaps Darcy had just came through a few city/towns like London with all their superflourous fineries to be found amongst that set of stylish people and behaviours to match. He became uncomfortable with woman in general and chose to hung out only with ladies he knew. Maybe he was shy and hiding behind that arrongant facade. Coming to Meryton was a change to country folks and by the time he was at Lucas's party, he began to accept the 'simplier' people for what they were, and Lizzy's beauty and simplic ty began to work on him. Afterall, they were relatively harmless."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (09:12)", "body": "Also, Darcy has simply never met another woman like Lizzy before, with her \"pert opinions.\" I love the scene at Netherfield where she has just commented on being astonished, with the array of demand he makes for such a thing, that he should know \"half a dozen\" ladies of accomplishment. When he turns around in his chair and studies her, really studies her, you can tell he is thinking, \"What a truly extraordinary girl!\""}, {"response": 31, "author": "Tracey", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:12)", "body": "Megan - I guess we do think alike! I like the way you put your \"defense;\" well done! I, too have been predisposed to like Darcy, but in my case it was because I saw the adaptation before I read the book, and CF managed to convey hints of underlying conflict/reserve/discomfort so well that you can see where he's coming from before Lizzy can. Dina - Indeed, Caroline's influence cannot excuse Darcy's behavior, and I would not have it so. I guess my line of thinking is that if you're constantly exposed to such unrestrained cattiness, it rubs off on you in subtle ways; and that the influence of company such as Caroline's, coupled with Darcy's naturally high opinion of himself, and even his reserve or shyness resulted in his rudeness of address."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Quarky", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:46)", "body": "Very nicely put, Meagan! You have just taken me to a review of the first tape (yet again!). It strikes me that at the assembly, the somewhat botched introduction of Darcy to Mrs. Bennet and her presumptious comments put Darcy ill at ease and caused his retreat. Her loud denunciation of him within earshot of so many (himself, especially), put him in an even worse humor. It is no wonder to me that he would want nothing more to do with \"country manners\". His remark that \"he would as soon call her mother a w t\" reflects, I believe, nothing more than that his is still in very bad humor over the evening's events. This incident clearly shows his later self assessment to be on the mark: he is somewhat easily provoked toward resentful feelings."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (13:20)", "body": "Bill, that is perfect, that makes me understand him. I think his reaction perfectly natural now. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 247, "subject": "What would have happened if.....", "response_count": 11, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (19:54)", "body": "On Lady Catherine's interference, or non-interference - I think Darcy would have eventually gotten around to it, it would have just taken a much l o n g e r time. Maybe he wouldn't have brought it up again on their walk, but lizzy's thank you could have been the beginning of something which would eventually develop."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:18)", "body": "I was thinking of a very interesting \"what if?\" just today. As much as I hate to think of Mr. Collins as being necessary to Lizzy and Darcy's future happiness, if Lady C had not been his patroness, and if he had not married Charlotte Lucas, L and D could not have been together at Rosings when she visited the Collinses and he his aunt. With his already having persuaded Bingley to leave Netherfield, how would they otherwise have met again? And if they had not, where would the story have gone?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:21)", "body": "\"I was looking for opinions on what you think would have happened if, for instance, Lady Catherine had never interfered,\" Don't get me started on this one! I am trying (and mostly failing) to write a story based on this premise. It ends up being P&P meets Persuasion."}, {"response": 4, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:30)", "body": "Here's the biggest question: \"What if Bingley did not come to Netherfield, if Bingley and JJAne, Darcy and Lizzy, never met?\""}, {"response": 5, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar 23, 1997 (23:33)", "body": "I really hate to say this, Ayelet, but there would not have been a book entitled 'Pride and Prejudice'!! Or, perhaps, they might have had different names??"}, {"response": 6, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (00:04)", "body": "Yes, but what would happen to the charecters, would Darcy be forever proud? Would he ever marry? And Lizzy? Would she marry anybody else? Would Jane find somebody so much like her? And Bingley?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Megan", "date": "Mon, Mar 24, 1997 (00:59)", "body": "\"If Lizzy had not gone to Pemberley\"???? Oh no! NO! I can't bear to think about that!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (09:02)", "body": "There must be method to this madness.. eh, Bingley not occupy Netherfield and not meet Jane, Darcy & Lizzy not meet? Well, could it be then Bingley would have married Miss Darcy, Darcy would have remained single (what a man!!) and Lizzy would have married Wickham only to regret it later."}, {"response": 9, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:46)", "body": "Lizzy wouldn't have married Wickham. She was too smart to elope with him, and she was too poor for him."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Darcyfan", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (14:23)", "body": "What would have happened if Col. Fitzwilliam had not told Lizzy about Darcy's interference in Janes and Bingleys attachment to one another....would Lizzy have been tempted when Darcy first proposed?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Genette", "date": "Sun, Apr  6, 1997 (14:04)", "body": "Darcyfan, I still think Elizabeth would have refused him. Other than Jane's unhappiness, E offered 2 other big reasons for refusal: 1) his treatment of Wickham, 2) she really didn't like Darcy at all. Without hurt for Jane as a reason, though, she might not have lost her temper with him so much. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 248, "subject": "Why do we feel the need to watch over and over and over and over and over again?", "response_count": 9, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:16)", "body": "\"..once you have that first kiss, once you say \"I love you\" that first time, once you go on from there..., it can never be the \"first time\" again.\" That's exacty what I told the hubby last night, when he asked if I was going insane watching JA's adaptations and leaving laser discs, videos, books all round the TV. Well , you never know when you might need a romance boost. Alternatively, I probably need a life."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:27)", "body": "I agree...it's like falling in love...or, like when you THINK you're falling in love...you're absolutely obsessive for a time, and then the feelings either die or even out to a nice, stable, old-married-couple sort of deep-seeded appreciation...familiarity breeds either contempt or greater, sager, calmer understanding."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (04:30)", "body": "Hmm.. how absolutely familar and true, Kali. - calmer understanding!! I'm ready for an adaptation right now."}, {"response": 4, "author": "janea", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (10:41)", "body": "I think there are many reasons why I love to watch the JA movies over and over again. It\ufffds for the love and the romance of course. It\ufffds also for the happy endings. In real life there are so many unhappy ones, but here you know all the time that they will marry in the end. That\ufffds heartwarming and just what I need when real life isn\ufffdt just sunshine and blue skys. But the most important reason I think, is the heros. They are just like the men of our dreams. They are masculine and goodlooking and romantic, but more important, they are all warm and strong and caring. And the way they _look_ at the heroines. I think we are all longing for to be looked at that way. And by watching over and over again we almost are."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Hollis", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (10:53)", "body": "I agree with you all about why we watch the JA movies over and over. I also think that I watch them because they represent a simplier time. Although I don't want to give up my modern life, there is something to be said about having male/female roles so defined. They didn't have as many choices but they also didn't have the stress of trying to do it all. These movies respresent a life that I wouldn't mind trying for a while."}, {"response": 6, "author": "kate", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:41)", "body": "These movies respresent a life that I wouldn't mind trying for a while. Don't forget the outdoor privy, and no antibiotics. And that most of us would have been the servants..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "They are just like the men of our dreams. They are masculine and goodlooking and romantic, but more important, they are all warm and strong and caring. And the way they _look_ at the heroines. I think we are all longing for to be looked at that way. Do men like this ever really exist? Or are they a figment of the imagination of female writers through time?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "LKenn", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (18:07)", "body": "Hollis - I agree with you. I can think of worse ways to spend a day than playing at the piano, reading, perfecting the art of portraiture, taking nature walks, etc. And I can think of worse ways to spend an evening than dancing at a ball with a fine & handsome gentleman, or dining with 4 and 20 families! I think we need a well calculated mix of the old & the new."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Apr 12, 1997 (04:11)", "body": "Perhaps since JA's books are all so focused on the emotional aspect, always with someone maturing for the sake of love and likewise, a villian going downhill from his/her lack of strength of character.. and at the expense of love.. It is a timeless lesson which can be learnt and re-learnt with our own experiences in life - A Knightley (esp. looking like JN) would have been so ideal to grown up with, a Darcy (CF) with all his unfailing devotion would be such a \"catch\" and a Wentworth, hmmm... after 8 years and still 'hurt' about the break-up and my favourite Mr Willoughby - I could go over and over and over and never be bored. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 249, "subject": "Did Mrs Bennet bring about the happy ending?", "response_count": 11, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Vivsy", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:12)", "body": "Food for thought. Mrs. Bennet is so hysterical annoying most of the time I hardly want to give her credit for anything. Mr. Bennet probably would have gone anyway. I nearly died laughing when Darcy walked away from her at the assembly. So she started Elizabeth's hatred of him. Yes, she knew what she was about with the horse ride. If Jane hadn't been sick Lizzie would never have had to stay there and interact with Darcy. Her visit to Netherfield embarrassed Lizzie so much that she could not wait to get away. So Jane & Lizzie might have left sooner than they would have. If she had not encouraged Mr. Collins to marry Lizzie he might not have asked her and then after being so soundly rejected he might not have been susceptive to Charlotte. Her going to Brighton probably would have made it easier for Lizzie and Darcy to get together at Pemberley. Yes, she knew what she was about with Bingley and Jane. In short, I guess Lizzie and Darcy probably do owe their happiness to Mrs. Bennet. Yikes, should I start liking her now? Serena how could you do this to me???"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Vivsy", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:51)", "body": "Sorry, was exerimenting with that font size thing. Didn't think it would be that big."}, {"response": 3, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (11:54)", "body": "have you tried our Arts and Crafts room at Austentest? Great stuff there"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Vivsy", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "Thanks Johanne, I didn't know about Austentest. Sorry about the shouting."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Mar 30, 1997 (23:32)", "body": "No a problem, Vivian, but I do think Mrs Bennet has helped along tremendously.. inspite of being 'vulgar and uncouth'.. cannot believe I'm typing this too"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Anat", "date": "Mon, Mar 31, 1997 (06:13)", "body": "I read in a preface to the book (don't remember by whom) that Mrs. Bennet was a better parent than Mr. Bennet. She was justified in her worry for her daughters' future, although she exxagerated (we'll be thrown do die in the hedgerows). We saw what happened to the Dashwood women in S&S. The father didn't put away money for their future, and didn't discipline the young daughters so their behavior was outrageous.He also degraded the mother in front of the daughters, which is not nice to do. In other adaptations of P&P (besides 2), Mrs. Bennet is not portrayed as such a hysterical woman, although its very clear from the novel that she is silly."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Serena", "date": "Tue, Apr  1, 1997 (21:52)", "body": "Yes, she was silly in her attempts to marry her daughters out, Anat. But it did pay off for her, 2 daughters well married.. and the romance for us to enjoy as viewers and readers.. I begin to like her more and more.."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Serena", "date": "Fri, Apr 11, 1997 (01:42)", "body": "Are there any other takers on Mrs Bennet and her efforts towards the happy ending...??"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Linda", "date": "Sat, Apr 12, 1997 (16:13)", "body": "I think both her parents helped Lizzie resolve that a marriage without respect is worse than spinsterhood, as she herself told Jane. Mr. Collins never stood a chance, thank goodness! She could never have accepted Darcy without respecting him for the person he was."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Apr 13, 1997 (06:50)", "body": "Yes, that is so true Linda. Lizzy was indeed aware of the disparity of respect and understanding between her parents. And wanted to find true love herself. But Mrs Bennet acting on her own ability, was simply trying to do the best she could in her own way, to 'promote' the lives of her daughters. She was trying to settle them well for hers and their own sake.. however, her methods and ways could sometimes be disputable. But I believe in her heart she did what she thought was best for them. In that sense, I thought she contributed to the happy ending... am I mistaken?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Linda", "date": "Mon, Apr 14, 1997 (19:12)", "body": "I do agree. Sometimes it's hard to see the good intent under all that awfulness, but she was certainly doing what she thought best for all her girls. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 250, "subject": "What do we want in a sequel?", "response_count": 2, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Dina", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (16:32)", "body": "You cannot have a story without conflict. What can we stand to have as a problem for D & E? I cannot imagine as I have read (I cannot believe I am admitting it) in some of the sequels that they will not have good communication and that Lizzie becomes an insipid, weepy wimp. One thing I know I would like to read (as I do in fanfic) is them getting to know each other as people. They know very little of each others lives. He knows she reads and plays \"a little\" - what else? She knows he's a \"good master\", likes to hunt birds and swims :-) - but what else? We know that her life will change a great deal, in comparison to Darcy's. I am sure she will make small faux pas but she won't let running Pemberly get the best of her. She is up to the challenge. That's about all the plot dissecting I can do right now. I am sure I will have more after I read everyone's wonderful ideas."}, {"response": 2, "author": "LKenn", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (18:14)", "body": "I want to see a P&P sequel that begins with Darcy & Elizabeth's wedding night. HA! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 251, "subject": "Lizzy and Charlotte compared and contrasted", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "lasalle", "date": "Tue, Mar 25, 1997 (17:52)", "body": "They were friends at first because of the similarities in their social position. They grew up together, were neighbors, were about the same age and at a time when social contacts were limited, by lack of good roads and communication, were more or less thrown in the same social situations. Assemblies, balls and so forth. It should be noted that their financial situations were somewhat similar. Both were not wealthy and if not married well, faced the possiblity of a dependent spinsterhood. The Bennett entail didn't help Eliz. Bennett much. And Sir WIlliam Lucas could give Charlotte little. Elizabeth Bennett simply erred in her understanding of Charlotte Lucas' character. Charlotte Lucas has a low opinion of (perhaps) men and views marriage simply as a source of financial security. Charlotte's statement of happiness in marriage considered as simply a matter of chance is treated as a joke at the dinner party given by at Lucas Lodge. As Eliz. finds out later, it is no joke. I am more in sympathy with Charlotte Lucas, and to a certain extent with Jane, than Eliz. Bennett, on the question of her marriage to Mr Collins. It's not stated directly, but the thought of the reversionaty interest in Longbourne going to the Collins's really made Elizabeth's relationship for Charlotte even more strained. Perhaps even more than Mr COllin's stupidity. Charlotte I suspect can deal with Mr Collins. But Eliz. is powerless against the entail."}, {"response": 2, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Mar 26, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "Carl -- Charlotte was actually about six years older than Lizzy..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Anat", "date": "Mon, Mar 31, 1997 (05:43)", "body": "Charlote declares that she is not a romantic and never was. She doesn't expect romance out of marriage. In contrast, Lizzy says it would take a great love to persuade her into matrimony. Why are they friends? besides the similarites that Lassale (Carl Goss?) mentioned, there is also attraction of opposites or complementary characters, looking for things you miss in your friends. I've had several relationships like that with women friends. I think it works less for couples."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Anat", "date": "Mon, Mar 31, 1997 (05:44)", "body": "Charlote declares that she is not a romantic and never was. She doesn't expect romance out of marriage. In contrast, Lizzy says it would take a great love to persuade her into matrimony. Why are they friends? besides the similarites that Lassale (Carl Goss?) mentioned, there is also attraction of opposites or complementary characters, looking for things you miss in your friends. I've had several relationships like that with women friends. I think it works less for couples."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Apr  2, 1997 (00:29)", "body": "I think Elizabeth and Charlotte are friends for the reasons that Carl mentioned above (same social position, close location, etc). However Elizabeth believed her friend was like minded with her in that one should at least respect her marriage partner. I think we have all had friends whom we assumed we shared common values with a later in the relationship found this was not true. In some situations this can be over looked. However, if you were very close, this type of discovery can cause a breach in th relationship (as it did here). I don't think Elizabeth is harsh in her assesment and reaction to Charlotte. Jane of course is being too forgiving (to me). Though Charlotte claims not to be romantic though she seems to notice attraction in everyone else. I think the issue is respect. Charlotte does not respect her spouse and that is a huge problem. And even worse, she knew she would not respect him before she married him. And her avoidance of him after they are married makes me scream why did you bother (yea though she claims she s content)."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Apr  2, 1997 (22:01)", "body": "Karen, it is somewhat ironic when Charlotte tells Lizzy that there are days when she and Mr. Collins rarely see each other, and she encourages him to spend time in the garden. It does make one ask, \"then why choose to spend your life with him?!\""}, {"response": 7, "author": "sld", "date": "Wed, Apr  2, 1997 (22:23)", "body": "[ I think the issue is respect. ] I think that Elizabeth lost a little respect for Charlotte, and that made their relationship a little strained. As time passed, Elizabeth kinda got over it, but I do not think their relationship will be as it was before Charlotte accepted Collins. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 254, "subject": "Colin and Jennifer: Every single scrap of information.", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Wed, Apr  2, 1997 (22:31)", "body": "Hullo, Cat! Haven't been here in awhile, and it seems awfuuly quiet. Here's an article about the pair: DARCY AND LIZZY'S REAL-LIFE ROMANCE PRIDE AND PREJUDICE STARS SHARED 'SIZZLING SEXUAL TENSION ACTORS JENNIFER EHLE & COLIN FIRTH HAD LOVE AFFAIR WHILE FILMING PRIDE & PREJUDICE Sunday Mirror October 15, 1995, Sunday By: Exclusive Sarah Stephens THE stars of Pride And Prejudice had a secret love affair - just like the characters they play in the hit pounds 6 million drama. But unlike Jane Austen's classic novel, the romance between Colin Firth who plays Mr Darcy and Jennifer Ehle (Elizabeth Bennett) did not have a happy ending. An associate of the actress revealed: \"Yes, it is true that they fell in love for real. But they are not together anymore. I don't know who ended it or how long it went on for. Jennifer has not spoken to anyone about it.\" The chemistry was so strong between between handsome Firth, 33, and 26- year-old stunner Jennifer that it spilled onto the set. In the final episode of the BBC adaptation of the 19th-Century classic, to be screened on Sunday, October 29, they share a sizzling kiss after their screen wedding. An insider said: \"There was an incredible sexual tension between them and I think that shows on screen. We had to do so many takes on the kissing scene that some people started to wonder whether they were enjoying it.\" The six-part series, which was filmed at stately homes including Luckington Court, Wilts and Sudbury Hall in Derbyshire, has been luring viewers in their millions from the rival ITV drama London's Burning. Fans have thrilled to the charming romance between Darcy and Elizabeth, unaware of the real passions b bbling underneath. Firth, who starred as a brain-damaged Falklands soldier in Tumbledown and as John McCarthy in Hostages, has hinted of his feelings for Jennifer in the past. He said: \"Luckily the chemistry between us is extremely strong.\" The actor has a three-year-old son Will from a five-year relationship with Canadian actress Meg Tilly. But Colin, born in Grayshott in Hampshire, admits he cannot settle down. He said: \"Falling madly in love is a euphoric sensation but it stops you caring for so many other things. It is n egotistical process of two people revelling in being adored. But then they realise that they are just two ordinary people trying to get on together. It gets a bit dull for me at that point.\" He added: \"I don't often fall hopelessly for someone. I don't need to have a woman around.\" Jennifer caused a stir when she appeared naked as Calypso in The Camomile Lawn and won rave reviews for her role as murdered army wife Penny McAllister in the true-life drama, Beyond Reason. She is the daughter of stage star Rosemary Harris, who earlier this year appeared on Broadway with Kenneth Cranham in An Inspector Calls. Her father, John Ehle, is an established writer who has just completed a screenplay for the Hollywood company Miramax. Jennifer, who was once romantically linked to Dame Maggie Smith's actor son Toby Stephens, is staying at a dockside apartment owned by the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford Upon Avon. When asked about her affair with Firth, she said: \"I am very upset about all this. I don't wish to talk about it.\" A spokesman for Firth said he was out of the country and unavailable for comment."}, {"response": 2, "author": "joanna", "date": "Thu, Apr  3, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "I've seen the Sunday Mirror article before. Is this a reliable source? Didn't someone at this site say that Jennifer initiated the break up because he was not interested in a serious relationship?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Apr  4, 1997 (08:11)", "body": "Joanna, that's what I remember, too. And I guess his comments above support that, don't they?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "joanna", "date": "Fri, Apr  4, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "Boy, do they ever! That's why I wondered how reliable that source was. The different articles I've read about Colin Firth are so mixed in their portrayals of him. Has anyone read anything recently solely about Jennifer?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Apr  5, 1997 (07:47)", "body": "Not lately. Have you tried a net search? austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 255, "subject": "What did you think of Emma Thompson's adaptation of Sense and Sensibility?", "response_count": 14, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Apr  2, 1997 (23:53)", "body": "Welcome Rebecca, glad you're joining us! Can you delve into the \"character turnaround\" thing a bit more?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Apr  4, 1997 (08:15)", "body": "Rebecca (or is it Paige?), this has been discussed before, but JA addicts are always more than willing to go over things again and again! I liked this adaptation, too, and agree with your casting comments, although it was so good overall that I could overlook those things. Having never been able to slog my way completely through that book, I can't comment on the Willoughby turnaround, however."}, {"response": 3, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Fri, Apr  4, 1997 (20:02)", "body": "I just saw S&S#? last Sunday on video, and I thought it was fabulous. Having read it 5 or 6 years ago, I had forgotten nearly everything but the most basic aspects and for that I was most happy. I found that this adaptation gave me a real sense of the novel. When I re-read the novel this week, I could actually see the characters speak. There are obviously plot omissions because of the length, but there was enough story to make it enjoyable on first watch. I don't think that I will spend as much time on it as I do with P&P2, but I will definitely spend more time on it than on Emma3!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Apr  4, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "Oh Angela, Emma3 improves with each viewing! Please give it a chance; I really love it."}, {"response": 5, "author": "angelaw", "date": "Sun, Apr  6, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "Susan, I would like to believe that Emma3 improves with each viewing, but I haven't been able to get myself to watch it except when it was aired. Of course, I taped it then, but I can't seem to bring myself to actually rewind the tape and see it again. Where as I rented S&S and saw it once before I had to return it, and now I'm contemplating buying the tape. It sort of like when you do badly on a test and you aren't even willing to look at the returned test paper even though you may have done reasonably w ll. Perhaps it may have to do with the fact that I don't really like the character of Emma. She's too spoiled for my tastes. Whereas I can identify with Elinor much, much better."}, {"response": 6, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Apr  6, 1997 (22:05)", "body": "Sense and Sensibility is being broadcast as I write this on one of the satellites."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Apr 10, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "The adaptation of S&S captured the overall essence of the book, though personally, I thought the Marianne and Willoughby affair was the most fulfilling 'failure' of a romance I've ever had to watch..I grieved for her and cry myself silly whenever I re watch it and reach the part where she goes to Combe Magna in the rain and calls out for him.. I'm melting as I type this. Yes, the Willoughby turnaround should have been included, it would have made the dread of the whole failed romance all the more intense for the viewer. But I guess she (Emma T) captured it having Willoughby look on at the end of the movie as Marianne marries Col. B. A regret he would have to carry with him forever. Oh WILLOUGHBY!!!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Apr 10, 1997 (21:20)", "body": "Serena, I also empathized with Willoughby in this version, but I guess a lot of diehard JA people thought he got just what he deserved. Somebody told me that people hissed in the theater when the scene came on where he was sitting on his horse watching the wedding aftermath. I couldn't believe that; I didn't think he was that bad in the film. And I, too, liked the romance between him and Marianne."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Serena", "date": "Fri, Apr 11, 1997 (01:38)", "body": "He was adorable, Susan... how could anyone think of hissing at him.. poor man, he was helpless to his own weaknesses.. that was precisely why he was so irrisistable. I've posted this before - if I had to be 'crossed' in love just once in my life time, it would be wonderful for it to be a Willoughby. That fearlessness to love and other weakness of character which can ultimately be 'gotten over with' and the girlish passions will develop into mature and life-long love?? Or am I just naive?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Apr 12, 1997 (00:42)", "body": "if I had to be 'crossed' in love just once in my life time, it would be wonderful for it to be a Willoughby. Oh yes, every woman should have a Willoughby somewhere in her past -- I know I do!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sat, Apr 12, 1997 (04:00)", "body": "Susan, we must be hopeless-romantics... Did you feel sad for Colonel Brandon? Especially since he knew he was being settled for.."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Apr 12, 1997 (16:27)", "body": "I felt somewhat sad for the Colonel, but he wanted Marianne so much that I think he was happy to take her on any terms. She needed him more than she wanted or loved him, I think, but he was willing to accept that to have her in his life. But yes, I think she settled, without a doubt. I'm sure she thought about Willoughby throughout her life as the one that got away. Being as passionate as she was, I'm sure she also fantasized about how different her life would have been with him."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Serena", "date": "Sun, Apr 13, 1997 (06:53)", "body": "That is so touching and tragic and all the more so for Colonel Brandon, he has also to contend with the 'ghost' of Willoughby inspite of winning the lady. But I do adore the Marianne and Willoughby romance, it was so passionate."}, {"response": 14, "author": "ValGal17", "date": "Fri, May  2, 1997 (22:29)", "body": "I believe that Marianne ended up loving Col. Brandon as much as she ever loveved Willoughby. In the book, at the very last, it states that Marianne could never love by halves and ended up loving Brandon as much as she ever loved Willoughby. I'm sure that she got much more out of her relationship with Brandon also. He truely loved her and would do anything for her. I don't know if Willoughby truly loved Marianne. He enjoyed their romance, but only because she flattered him. He did not love her - only the fact that she petted his ego. I do feel sorry for Willoughby though. If he did love her to the full extent of his soul than that is very sad. The truest love he could give he could give away for money. I feel sorry him because he was not half the man he should have been. People like that don't get nearly as much out of life. I believe Marianne led a happy life as a woman who loved those around her and was loved. If she did think about Willoughby at all it was not in regret. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 258, "subject": "Austen vs Heyer", "response_count": 6, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, May 16, 1997 (08:21)", "body": "Do you have any titles or authors in mind?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "christa", "date": "Mon, May 19, 1997 (21:25)", "body": "No, I have no sugesstions. I was sort of hoping others would have some suggestions for me."}, {"response": 3, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Tue, May 20, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "There's nobody quite like JA, but some of my favorites are Anne Bronte (although all Brontes are quite good, IMHO); Madeline L'Engle (be sure you're looking at her adult fiction, since she also has young adult literature, essays, etc.) and John Irving. Pick a century and see if you like any of them, but to me these are writers whose characters live on in my head after the book is finished."}, {"response": 4, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, May 20, 1997 (13:02)", "body": "I loved the play I saw last year about the Bronte sisters. Fascinating."}, {"response": 5, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Wed, May 21, 1997 (18:49)", "body": "Hi Terry. Glad to see people are still posting here. It seems that most of the Austen bb group has moved on. Anyway, I'm still having lots of fun reading old postings/old threads. Just wish I'd found this place sooner. The Brontes are interesting--the whole family. Complex and interesting, with so many misconceptions written by fond friends/family after they died. The survivor's story gets told, and what is truth? Anyway, to be slightly more helpful here, I thought I'd mention titles and not just authors for Christa. John Irving: A PRayer for Owen Meany; The Cider House Rules M. L'Engle: Certain Women; A Severed Wasp Anne Bronte: The Tenant of Wildfell Hall I wish I could read them all for the first time again! Enjoy."}, {"response": 6, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, May 21, 1997 (18:59)", "body": "I'm glad folks are still posting here too. We'll keep it going and do what we can to encourage it. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 33, "subject": "incredibly dumb and stupid questions (for newbies)", "response_count": 74, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (15:18)", "body": "I've got one. How do I get to see the \"mini series\". Is it available at video stores? Is it going through re-runs in the States? Where did it originate. Remember, don't poke fun at me for this *incredibly dumb and stupid question\". OK?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "mich", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (15:26)", "body": "Terry, I've seen it at Block buster for rent. A&E is reshowing it but it's half over so you missed it by a about month. I have two copies and I would be happy to lend you one. let me know if your interested. Mich"}, {"response": 3, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (16:20)", "body": "Terry, The fact of the matter is that probably EVERYONE on this board has at least two copies and would be glad to loan you one. This goes for me, too. Myretta"}, {"response": 4, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (16:41)", "body": "OK. I'll make arrangements to borrow one. Email me about this. I don't have cable (though I have satellite) so I don't get A&E. How many programs is the series?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (20:40)", "body": "Terry - I called my local Blockbuster, and they gave me an 800 number to call. They were able to look up which Blockbusters in my ZIP code carried the video. It has been distributed in a couple of different ways - I was able to find the three hour, 2 volume set. Just make sure they know its the A&E version that you want."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (21:07)", "body": "I was able to find the three hour, 2 volume set. Just make sure they know its the A&E version that you want. Terry, in all fairness you should be warned; it's in fact a five hour set in 2 volumes, or almost 6 hours if you get the 6 volume set. Make sure you have a comfortable chair!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (21:15)", "body": "Oops! Reason #477 why you should always double-check what you've written before hitting the submit button!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (21:15)", "body": "] in fact a five hour set in 2 volumes, or almost 6 hours if you get the 6 volume set ________________ And Terry, you may or may not ever get this, but we all wish it were longer. If you can stand it, watching will help you understand our private language. I look forward to seeing your first, \"Miss ___ is all politeness\" or \"And why should he not?\" or \"It is of little matter.\" Amy"}, {"response": 9, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (22:24)", "body": "Wow, 6 hours, at extended play you could get the whole thing on one videotape. I'm a ways from mastering this jargon, but don't lose hope. Are you going to publish a bibliography of Jane Austen somewhere on this website? OK folks, it's time to ask that question that heretofore you been *too embarassed* to pose. Come on, ask it. You're safe here since this topic doesn't allow ridicule of unbelieveably naive or inance questions."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (22:52)", "body": "OK - how do I change my log-in 'pseudonym' (nothing actually pseud about it) to read 'Anna' instead of 'Anna Price' ? I went into the change preferences section and I thought I had changed it, but when I came back out it had reverted to the first version. How do I make the change stick? yours informally, Anna"}, {"response": 11, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (23:03)", "body": "I question that I can't answer. Will you please pose this to Dave Thaler (the fellow who wrote this software) in the yapp conference?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (23:36)", "body": "OK folks, it's time to ask that question that heretofore you been *too embarassed* to pose. _____________ Oh man, if there is something we have not delved into because it is more embarrassing that the topics we have discussed... well I shudder to think. Can it be so? Have we any of us withheld anything? Amy"}, {"response": 13, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (23:55)", "body": "I don't know. Who's holding back?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (23:56)", "body": "] I'm a ways from mastering this jargon, but don't lose hope. _______________ I just thought of the absolute perfect P&P line for a sysop. See new thread. Oozing drama from every pour, Amy"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Nov 26, 1996 (23:57)", "body": "] I'm a ways from mastering this jargon, but don't lose hope. _______________ I just thought of the absolute perfect P&P line for a sysop. See new thread. Oozing drama from every pore, Amy"}, {"response": 16, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (00:23)", "body": "] Anna: ] OK - how do I change my log-in 'pseudonym' (nothing actually pseud about it) to read 'Anna' instead of 'Anna Price' ? I went into the change preferences section and I thought I had changed it, but when I came back out it had reverted to the first version. How do I make the change stick? ] Terry: ] I question that I can't answer. Will you please pose this to Dave Thaler (the fellow who wrote this software) in the yapp conference? Well I can answer that one - i figured it out. I'll trade you 3 for one - does that sound fair? ;-) In order to get it to take, you have to resign from the conference and join all over again - which, of course, sets all your pointers back to the beginning again. So I ended up having to display everything all over again. So: 1. Is there any way to do what you can do in Caucus and just mark everything as seen? That way, people could read everything new, do the resign trick, mark everything seen, and not miss anything - OR have to displkay it all again. 2. You mentioned elsewhere that there is a way to get rid of those annoying unwanted paragraph breaks that get put into one's text if a paragraph gets longer than 5 or 6 lines long. How do you do it? 3. You also mentioned elsewhere that there is a way to attach a response to a specific posting. How is that done?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (08:35)", "body": "Interesting question, we used to use caucus as our software. If you have a shell account, you can type fixseen to make all items seem as if you've read them. Email me for a shell account, we give them away to folks who are frequent posters and contributors to this community. The paragraph thing is a systemwide setting that I have to look into. I'm not sure how you attach responses, you may want to pose this to Dave in the yapp conference."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (11:39)", "body": "Not only does the paragraph break, it also zaps one letter in the last word of the line that breaks! I find that very strange."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Inko", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (16:46)", "body": "I have a really inane, beginner's question. The other day I tried to save part of the postings. Managed to do that, saved into my Wordperfect 6.1 for Windows 95, but then when I opened WPwin, it wouldn't read the document because it said it was in an \"unknown format\", and couldn't translate it. How can I save stuff I want and still be able to read it later?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (18:16)", "body": "Mine save as html files - you need to use your browser to read them. If it's netscape you go file open and select the file you want."}, {"response": 21, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (20:13)", "body": "My browser (Netscape) gives you a pop-up menu in the SAVE window that lets you choose to save either as plain text or html. If you are able to save the file as plain text, WordPerfect should have no problem with it."}, {"response": 22, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (20:34)", "body": "Ok - here are 2 more: How come if your are reading \"new\" postings\" and there is an imge that doesn't load, and you ask your browser to try to load it again, (just the image, not the page), if it fails to load, you are taken to the text entry window, skipping over the rest of the new messages and marking them all as seen, so they don't appear as \"new\" any more, and you can't go back and view them again without changing to \"all\" mode and re-displaying the entire topic again? (How's that for a run-on sentence?) Is there any way to go (back or forward) straight to a specific topic while reading new postings? For example, if I wanted right now to jump back to topic 8, how could I do that?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (20:39)", "body": "Re: Changing you name You don't have to go through any rigamarole if you are willing to always edit the \"Use Pseudonym:\" box when you post. Re: Bibliography Terry, I've got general Jane Austen bibliographies out the wazoo at the Jane Austen web site; start with http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janebblg.html"}, {"response": 24, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (20:42)", "body": "Joan, that's part of the whole \"excessive no-caching\" problem -- see my rant over in the \"HELP!!!\" topic."}, {"response": 25, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (00:46)", "body": "Ooooh - I did see, and echoed, your rant - I didn't realize that this was a related problem! It definitley needs fixing!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (01:35)", "body": "You don't have to go through any rigamarole if you are willing to always edit the \"Use Pseudonym:\" box when you post. that's what I've been doing, but it gets tedious"}, {"response": 27, "author": "geekman", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (03:35)", "body": "But Anna it can be fun too!!!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (04:00)", "body": "OK, can someone explain to me what a \"cookie\" is? My browser says that this site wants to make one each time I log on. What happens if I do or don't permit it?"}, {"response": 29, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (13:31)", "body": "A cookie is a way Dave's software tracks what you've read and you could probably get a more definitive answer by asking Dave in yapp. Dave is *very* responsive to making changes that folks ask for so, be forewarned, you'll probably get whatever you ask for in the new version. So, don't be shy, you can help make yapp a much better software program! Jan Wolter has also, I understand, written a whole slew of great utility add ons for yapp that we can look at installing. ONe is specifically to improve text formatting. Check out: http://www.izzy.net/~janc for more details about his add on utilities. Jan is a big fan of the bizarre virtual community world. How kooky to we have to get to attract Jan as a participant? Happy Thanksgiving everyone! There's a lot to be thankful for. I love this newly arrived community!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Inko", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (16:18)", "body": "Thanks Joan, next time I save I'll try that pop-up window. Never noticed it before. Just goes to show what a complete novice I am about all this!!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (17:40)", "body": "Dirty word! I just followed the link to Jan's page, and then could not return to my \"place\" in this conference - it only returns to the text entry window, with no indication as to how many postings were stlll left to read, or how far back I needed to go in the \"redisplay\" field to get them back. (HC, I suppose this is also part of that same problem that you described so completely with all those !!!!!)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (17:50)", "body": "Incredibly stupid question about the Regency period. Starting new thread, sorry, \"topic.\" I will conquer this lingo. At least someone has changed it from \"item.\" Talk about a nondescriptive label. Amy"}, {"response": 33, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (18:19)", "body": "Yes Joan, once you have topic messages displayed, DON'T GO NOWHERE and DON'T DO NOTHING WITH THE BROWSER WINDOW unless you have read the messages on the page. If you need to go somewhere, open a NEW browser window..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (18:22)", "body": "Ah! An excellent suggestion! Why did that not occur to me? (Although IMHO that should not be necessary; not everyone will necessarily have that capability!)"}, {"response": 35, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (18:44)", "body": "In Internet Explorer you can right click on a link and save it as a bookmark for later."}, {"response": 36, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (18:53)", "body": "] Terry: In Internet Explorer you can right click on a link and save it as a bookmark for later. Not if you are a Mac user with no right mouse button. :-) (But you can copy the location and put it into a bookmark manually) Much more \"friendly\" though to be able to follow a link and return to where you were - this is the first web site I have ever visited where that was not possible!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (19:00)", "body": "You know what I wish MSIE had though? URL for image"}, {"response": 38, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (19:05)", "body": "Terry, \"coming back\" to a topic messages page NEVER works in Netscape, because all those \"no-cache\" directives mean that Netscape will _RELOAD_ the page again from Spring when you try to \"go back\" to it, and the software thinks that once you've accessed some messages, then you've already read those messages..."}, {"response": 39, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (19:09)", "body": "I am very glad that we have someone who thinks of these things and is excessively attentive to them. ;-)"}, {"response": 40, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (19:42)", "body": "] Terry: A cookie is a way Dave's software tracks what you've read and you could probably get a more definitive answer by asking Dave in yapp. I don't really care what he is using it for - I just want to know what one is - and why it is called a cookie. Seems that \"they\" might have given it a more meaningful name. The message pops up saying that someone wants to make one and do you want to permit it - well I never know what to answer because I don't know what one is."}, {"response": 41, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (19:45)", "body": "I've also been wondering why the \"new\" option doesn't \"stick\" - each time one logs on one is back again in \"all\" mode."}, {"response": 42, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (19:59)", "body": "The browser drops off little messages about you in your cookie jar or something like that so the next time you visit the website the website knows what's in your cookie jar (or something). Now talk about an uninformed answer that goes begging for a better one. There you have it."}, {"response": 43, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (20:02)", "body": "Per Amy's request, I just set up half a dozen folks here as shell users who will be helping with the interface. This is the dream team. You know who you are, I take it."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (22:17)", "body": "Joan ] I've also been wondering why the \"new\" option doesn't \"stick\" - each time one logs on one is back again in \"all\" mode. Joan, I was logging on via the bookmark I picked up from Amy's page; http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/all and was also getting \"all\" each time I logged on. I changed the url to; http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/all/new and that logs me on in \"new\" mode."}, {"response": 45, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (00:39)", "body": "Thank you so much Anna - why did I not think of looking at that myself? And Terry, I enjoyed your \"uninformed\" answer , but do hope that someone has a more detailed one to offer!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (01:10)", "body": "I may just have to launch a search for cookies."}, {"response": 47, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (01:18)", "body": "Well, I could do that, too - I'm just hoping that someone here already knows and will save me (us?) the trouble. :-)"}, {"response": 48, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (02:17)", "body": "One definition I found: A handle, transaction ID, or other token of agreement between cooperating programs. ``I give him a packet, he gives me back a cookie.\" The claim check you get from a dry-cleaning shop is a perfect mundane example of a cookie; the only thing it's useful for is to relate a later transaction to this one (so you get the same clothes back). Here's something pretty technical, the cookie specification: http://www.nord.de/pete/www/extensions/cookie_spec.html http://www.ids.net/~oops/tech/make-cookie.html http://www.politicsnow.com/views/netwatch/ Mostly, what you get when you search for \"cookies\" is chocolate chip recipes and \"better than sex cookies\" etc. But the above links should answer some questions. Particularly good, is the politicsnow page which deals with privacy issues."}, {"response": 49, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (02:20)", "body": "And the absolutely, insanely great cookie url: http://emf.net/~mal/cookiesinfo.html"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (07:12)", "body": "Hey, Joan, does it bother you a lot that this thing is termed a cookie. Too bad if it does, dear, because I fear you will not be able to doe anything about it now. ;) Amy"}, {"response": 51, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (13:49)", "body": "ME WANT COOKIE!!! ME WANT COOKIE!!!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 30, 1996 (14:48)", "body": "C is for cookie It's good enough for me! C is for cookie It's good enough for me! C is for cookie It's good enough for me! Cookie, cookie, cookie starts with C."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Dec  4, 1996 (01:50)", "body": "How much I shall have to learn and put in my own cookie-box when I get it soon. And Joan too, at least those cookies are not nasty little freckled things!! Ann2"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (00:14)", "body": "Okay, I've got the general gist, but somebody please give me the real explanation for \"daggy,\" OK?"}, {"response": 55, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (08:05)", "body": "Does any here know the folks at A&E who produce A&E or at least who they are?"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (08:49)", "body": "I am a little acquainted with the new media deprtment, Terry."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (08:50)", "body": "And they are a client of Amy2's firm. Better not approach them about sponsorhip until we talk."}, {"response": 58, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (18:36)", "body": "Sounds good. Let's talk deeper."}, {"response": 59, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (11:03)", "body": "Susan; here it is. There came into being a topic of discussion, which began with a discussion about clothes, where someone noted that Mr. Firth appeared to vary on whether he \ufffddressed\ufffd left or right.. if you know what I mean. The person had discussed the topic with her husband, who thought that most men always dressed to one side, rather than alternating. There was some discussion of compiling a list of which side Mr. Darcy was dressed to in certain scenes; similar to a list of which dresses Lizzy wore in each scene, but this was never compiled (or, at any rate, never published ;-)\ufffd. ) It was one of our Australian cousins who introduced the term daggy to us, and it was unanimously moved that the topic be thus named. This, madam, is a faithful narrative of all my dealings with the daggy topic. For the truth of this account, you may inquire of Cheryl Sneed, who is familiar with the entire history of all daggy and snogging activities."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (21:46)", "body": "Finally, a really straight answer. Thanks, Mari!! I'm afraid all Cheryl would be able to manage is \"Ooh baby ooh baby!\" although I AW."}, {"response": 61, "author": "TJ", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (12:19)", "body": "Well i read through the entire topic..........and somehow cookies and such did not strike me as a P&P Austen topic.........I came in here to try to find out something about austen lingo and such..........thanks for daggy.......now what is snogging"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (13:50)", "body": "Poor TJ!! Snogging is Brit slang for \"necking\"! ;-)"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Donna", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (13:51)", "body": "]now what is snogging.....a term used instead of necking."}, {"response": 64, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (07:56)", "body": "TJ, you had to ask."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (00:01)", "body": "Why is everything old somehow new again? I spent hours going through all the old threads to get caught up and just use the \"all new\" function, and all of a sudden all the messages in all the threads come up under \"all new.\" What did I do wrong and, how, please, please, please, do I undo it?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (00:07)", "body": "] What did I do wrong and, how, please, please, please, do I undo it? __ It is an odious bug, Susan -- with no cure, but some theories about prevention. See the \"Old is New Explained\" [pic*] thread. * pic. Premise incorrect."}, {"response": 67, "author": "Kaffeine", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (10:13)", "body": "Susan - I can't guarantee this, but I've never been hit by the \"Old is New\" bug, and I use the following URL: http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/since/-1/new You might want to give this a try."}, {"response": 68, "author": "elder", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (11:50)", "body": "Susan -- I agree w/ suggestion from Kaffeine (aka Kathleen Grant). You can also use \"-0\", or \"-2\", or other numbers, depending on how long it's been since you last viewed the messages. (The all new in the last week option from the main page gives you a \"-7\".) Good luck -- this is a terrible disease! :-) kathleen"}, {"response": 69, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (21:58)", "body": "Even if you don't want to use it all the time, http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/since/-1/new is a faster way to catch up and not have to re-display all of the old messages again."}, {"response": 70, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (00:37)", "body": "You guys are GREAT! Thanks so much for the tips -- I think I'm OK again."}, {"response": 71, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (16:08)", "body": "God, how embarrassing -- it's me yet again. How do you copy part of someone's message so you can respond to it? I've just been retyping it, but I assume everyone else is copying because sometimes the same typos are there. I'm sure it's really simple, but I've tried a few things and can't make it work. You've all been so great -- mind helping me out once again?"}, {"response": 72, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (16:34)", "body": "Susan, just highlight the part you wish to copy, either by dragging your mouse with the button down, or by (are we talking PC?) holding down the shift key and using the cursor arrows. Then go to E dit, choose C opy and the selected words will be in your clipboard. Paste them in the response window by going back to the Edit menu and choosing Paste. After you get used to doing it with the mouse you can check out keyboard shortcuts like CTRL-C to copy and CTRL-V to paste -- or my personal fave, CTRL-Insert, SHFT-Insert. Then you can start on the fancy stuff like the showy crossover legato mouse clicks."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Feb  8, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "Then you can start on the fancy stuff like the showy crossover legato mouse clicks. Well, look at that. Thanks, Amy, I was doing essentially what you said, just not in the right sequence and not with my cursor in the right place. I printed out your message for future reference."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (00:21)", "body": "Good for you Susan! And you already know how to do italics! There will be no stopping you now! ;-) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 36, "subject": "P&P lines for everything", "response_count": 26, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (00:05)", "body": "Perfect P&P line for a sysop: Even if I wished to I could not. Amy"}, {"response": 2, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (00:29)", "body": "Amy, your graphic would not load."}, {"response": 3, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (00:30)", "body": "Amy, your graphic would not load."}, {"response": 4, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (00:32)", "body": "(((oh no, not again!)))"}, {"response": 5, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (03:49)", "body": "\"unknown error code #00???\" = \"I leave that for yourself to determine\" P&P, Mr. Bennett, chapter 23."}, {"response": 6, "author": "panache", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (20:55)", "body": "Suitable for any social gathering where your (spouse or teenager) is sullenly refusing to mingle with your (P&P2 friends or business associates or relatives from out of state): \"I hate to see you standing about in this stupid manner.\" (To be accompanied by the amiable-but-concerned Bingley smile)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (21:10)", "body": "Good one, Cecily. ] \"I hate to see you standing about in this stupid manner.\" (To be accompanied by the amiable-but-concerned Bingley smile) You know what I like too? Lizzy's smile when she hears it."}, {"response": 8, "author": "panache", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (21:11)", "body": "Well, I most vexed at the print-out of my above entry; it was truly not meant to resemble some sort of neo-poetic stanza (away from me, you extra Enter key hits!). So let's have another go at a P&P line; I hesitate due to its being better placed in the amy/hchurch crypto-thread, due to its daggier nuance. Consider the source: the grampus-wallowing Mr. Collins made frequent references to the [Rosings fireplace] \"of prodigious proportions\" to the point of utter inanity. I submit that the phrase could be used under many other circumstances-- say, for instance, when boasting of one's new car engine, new Wal-Mart store, or even new Darcy pinup photo. %-}"}, {"response": 9, "author": "panache", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (21:24)", "body": "Hulloo, Amy! If I may be so bold, I perceive everyone who joins in here at the 3 P&P2 sites (yours, Alicia's, and Kathleen's) as... \"with great spirit among her [his] friends; for she [he] had a lively, playful disposition, which delighted in anything ridiculous.\""}, {"response": 10, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (21:27)", "body": "] \"with great spirit among her [his] friends; for she [he] had a lively, playful disposition, which delighted in anything ridiculous.\" ___________ Not bold, C. I am honored to have gathered these types around me. Looks like we are on at the same time. Meet you in chat in a few? Amy"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Leslie", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (09:27)", "body": "The next time you are in a meeting, or a club, etc., and someone is annoying you, say to them, I never have desired your good opinion, and you have certainly bestowed it most unwillingly. Hopefully, this will get rid of them. P&P Chapter 34."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Thu, Jan 16, 1997 (16:56)", "body": "I frequently find those lines useful: Is this to be endured? (e.g. When library visitor's are especially tiresome & demanding) I'm all astonishment! (When some one tells a daggy joke for example) Be not alarmed, Madam... (trying to comfort fellow worker when work piles up) What is to become of us? (heavy cutting down on library budget)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (08:58)", "body": "\"In vain I have struggled. It will not do.\" (Trying to piece together Barbie's camper at 1:00 am Christmas morning.)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Elaine", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (11:48)", "body": "Is Barbie's camper more difficult than adding up the Girl Scout cookie matrix?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "jane", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (13:42)", "body": "I was at a business meeting recently with too many bigshots, and I kept trying to say something, but got cut off. I felt just like Mr. Bingley after the Pemberley piano party, when his sister is criticizing Elizabeth, and he says: \"I think..\" but gets cut off. I need a bit more of Darcy's presence, I fear."}, {"response": 17, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (14:57)", "body": "Ah, but Jane -- if Darcy were present, how would you be able to concentrate on what was being discussed at the meeting? ;-)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "jane", "date": "Tue, Jan 21, 1997 (16:20)", "body": "Kathleen, very true! And I fear I would be just like Miss Bingley, trying to impress him and saying all the wrong things."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Thu, Feb 13, 1997 (01:14)", "body": "I fear I'm maybe the weirdest person amongst us. More than once have I actually felt my head moving or my lips being pressed together exactly the way Darcy does it!!! Or mine eyes wandering off afar... And Jane's mouth too, in the assembly scene when Lizzy says after first Darcy rudeness that maybe D is not so handsome after all certainly nothing to Mr Bingley !"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (08:03)", "body": "How about: Oh, you take delight in vexing me! I am going to make it up as sign and hang it above my computer ;-)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (08:22)", "body": "Ann and I thought up a good P&P2 drinking game...you glug every time someone says indeed. Two, three, four, five, and whole-glass glugs can be assigned to other words/phrases of the party's choosing. Each player can select a particular character, for example, and rate certain characteristic phrases/actions/habits of that character by glugs. There are so many possiblities...;)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (12:30)", "body": "The P&P2 drinking game..."}, {"response": 23, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (12:31)", "body": ""}, {"response": 24, "author": "Ann", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (13:05)", "body": ""}, {"response": 25, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (15:57)", "body": "Under the table ........... asleep ....... zzzzzz ........"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "The \"loaded\" face looks quite like Mr. Hurst's..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "LynnMarie", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (18:36)", "body": "\"Happy thought indeed!\" can be applied to any situation where someone obviously wants you to agree with them, and for fear of hurting their feelings, you hide your true feelings of disagreement. I must add that I love it at the assembly ball when Mr. Hurst pounds on the table for another pint!!! austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 39, "subject": "The Spring as a whole and pointers to other topics", "response_count": 34, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (12:05)", "body": "Perhaps this topic will be a place to respond to all the email queries about \"why is this free?\" and \"what can I do to help?\" and other questions along a similar thread. The Spring is building some contract websites. One that is currently under construction is http://www.childrenstory.com I am billing a customer for this website. The revenue will go to replace a badly needed hard drive for one of our servers, make upgrades, and pay our kindly bandwidth provider. So, those of you with website contruction skills, this is something very specific and concrete you can do to help support the Spring and keep it going. You can help build this site, which is going to have a Real Audio server and will provide children with stories in written and spoken form. You can help directly by writing html code (I'll give you access) or you can just make suggestions. I'm going to open a new conference called 'projects' and this will be one of the first topics and we can carry a discussion of how to build and improve this site there. Another website under construction to look at would be: http://www.tvpc.com Let me know!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (12:10)", "body": "A pointer to a new conference: poetry. It just started this morning. I sent out a few invitations. If you have that poem hidden away in the bottom of that sock drawer, type it out and post it. Any poets or poetry lovers here?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (19:38)", "body": "Hey Terry, you can link to or kipe my HTML-ization of George MacDonald's The Light Princess , at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/lprincss.html"}, {"response": 4, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (20:26)", "body": "Oh, HC - do you have any more MacDonald up your electronic sleeve?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "churchh", "date": "Wed, Nov 27, 1996 (20:55)", "body": "I also converted The Day Boy and the Night Girl (The Romance of Photogen and Nycteris) to HTML, but that was for the CCEL people, and it's on their web-site (you can find it through the CMU on-line books page, or I think there might be a link to it at the end of the text of the Light Princess )."}, {"response": 6, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (00:57)", "body": "Who are CCEL? [something] Children's Electronic Literature, perhaps? Do you happen to have a link handy for CMU on-line books?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (07:35)", "body": "\"Christian Classics Ethereal Library\", I think... I'm too lazy to look up the CMU on-line books URL right now, but there's a link to it from the Jane Austen info page at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janeinfo.html"}, {"response": 8, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Nov 28, 1996 (13:39)", "body": "I looked at the Jane Austen info page and it's terrific. I got into reading some of Jane Austen's works and I'll be coming back for more visits. What I'd like to do is set up a team of folks who have shell access to this site and who are able to work in various websites of their own and on the projects that I'm developing to help support this conferencing system. Has anyone visited the projects conference yet? I'm on Microsoft Netmeeting all day today so if anyone wants to \"talk\" please drop by. I'm on the uls1.microsoft.com server. You need to have NetMeeting software, which is free from Microsofts site."}, {"response": 9, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Dec  2, 1996 (09:53)", "body": "Poor mixu! He's posting all alone in the books conference about his favorite books and putting out a mystery quote for folks to guess. Is anyone up to giving him a bit of company in the 'books' conference? http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/books/all/"}, {"response": 10, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Dec 25, 1996 (21:04)", "body": "Check out the interesting comments on community in topic 4 of the community conference and respond, if you care to."}, {"response": 11, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Wed, Dec 25, 1996 (21:25)", "body": "Terry, are you sure that you mean topic 4? That is the same (linked) topic as the \"ramble\" topic (with a different topic number) here. We don't have to \"go there\" to see it."}, {"response": 12, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (21:50)", "body": "Ooops, no it is the last topic added I believe. What other conferences on the Spring have folks here in Austen been visiting? Any suggestions for new topics elsewhere on the Spring?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (21:54)", "body": "It's topic 5 in community actually."}, {"response": 14, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (23:24)", "body": "If you want to read some very eloquent stuff: Topic 14 of 14 [music]: Players you have met Response 21 of 21: drymartini (drymartini) * Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (21:27) * 3 lines One of my all-time favorite interviews. Carlos Montoya, playing for a college crowd at Alfred, NY. Small, very dapper guy in this elegant tux, with a white hanky in his breat pocket, folded just so.... [much more]"}, {"response": 15, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Dec 29, 1996 (14:42)", "body": "We have got permission from ronks@well.com to reprint his celebrated tech news comments, starting today. Here's a sample: Scientific American has an interesting article in its January 1997 issue about developments in fiber-optic bandwidth and their implications for the telephone industry. Companies including AT&T, Fujitsu, and Nippon T&T have already used a single optical fiber to transmit data over \"many kilometers\" in excess of a trillion bits per second. NEC has gone them one better by using wave division multiplexing to create multiple channels transmitting at different wavelengths; with WDM they sent 132 channels, each carrying 20 billion bits per second, over a single optical fiber. While these \"hero experiments\" are not yet ready for commercial deployment, they seem to demonstrate big changes in store: glass cable is much cheaper than copper, and WDM is said to eliminate both the need for expensive boosters along the path to clean up the signals periodically and for a separate laser on each channel. As the cost of providing humungous bandwidth plummets, the phone companies' revenue and even their monopoly status could be in jeopardy. A rogue spokesman at British Telecom says technology will make \"bandwidth free and distance irrelevant.\" The director of H-P's labs says phone companies will become digital utilities something like the water or the power company, and an independent analyst estimates \"telephone service should cost about three cents a month.\" Check out topic 2 in techbusiness."}, {"response": 16, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (09:29)", "body": "The Spring was down for the past hour. I apologize to Myretta, Henry and others that may have been trying to access it. I'm going through the log and emailing folks that have tried to access it and letting them know that it's back up. I messed it up this morning trying to reconfigure and restart the logs. If you're interested in the technical details of what I did you can read the sordid details in the web conference. Sorry folks, I'm not happy about being down for an hour this morning."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Donna", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (09:42)", "body": "That is OK Terry it is working fine now."}, {"response": 18, "author": "tedchong", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (10:23)", "body": "Thanks Terry, happy new year 1997 (it's 1997 already here in Singapore)"}, {"response": 19, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (10:23)", "body": "On a cheerier note, Paul McCartney is now Sir Paul McCartney And you can read all the details in the new Sir Paul McCartney topic in the music conference. Please do my a favor. Do a search on Paul McCartney and find a neat website about Paul McCartney, then email the webmaster or whatever email address is listed on their website and ask them to please put a link on their page to our Paul McCartney discussion group. Tell them this is the link to add: http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/public/read/music/16 Let's see if we can honor Paul in this way! Thanks."}, {"response": 20, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (10:29)", "body": "I'm encouraging folks to do this same kind of thing all over the Spring. If you have a favorite topic, do a search for websites about it and then email the person in charge there to put in a link to the Spring. Just copy the link from your browser window and sub the word public for the word restricted. (test it) Beep beep beep beep yeeeahhh!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (12:44)", "body": "The Spring was down for the past hour. I apologize to Myretta, Henry and others that may have been trying to access it No apology necessary Terry. Been there, done that. All's well, they say, that ends well."}, {"response": 22, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (14:30)", "body": "Terry -- thanks for getting things back together so quickly. I did try to get on this am, and kept getting called an \"Unprivileged User\"!! I was afraid it was something wrong w/ my system, and I am much relieved to see that all is again well. Have a Happy!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (17:07)", "body": "We're back. And I just got back from installing another server on our network. So we even have more ooooomph now."}, {"response": 24, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (04:38)", "body": "The austen conference is featured today on the Spring's front page. Along with a revision of the whole page. Take a trip through the past in the archives. The new golf site is my sisters (she lives in the SF Bay area)."}, {"response": 25, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (15:25)", "body": "The restaurants conference has a much bigger menu of topics and a place to talk about the best restaurant in your town and the best restaurant in the world. Any ideas?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (16:56)", "body": "Amy, this has started up just recently -- http://www.islandmm.com/islandmm/cgi-bin/bbs.pl?action=bbs&mbaction=msgs&item=alice"}, {"response": 27, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (17:04)", "body": "Amy, this has started up just recently -- http://www.islandmm.com/islandmm/cgi-bin/bbs.pl?action=bbs&mbaction=msgs&item=alice"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (17:53)", "body": "That board looks familiar."}, {"response": 29, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (11:24)", "body": "That board looks familiar. Indeed."}, {"response": 30, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Feb  7, 1997 (23:23)", "body": "You'll find the rest of this poem in the poetry conference. This is just a taste. Flowing Like Spring Waters Tonight is the night, my dear friend. The feeling has ripened inside for months... Every time you and I were together Laughing, chatting, and rambling endlessly much more in the poetry conference --------->"}, {"response": 31, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (21:45)", "body": "There's a new conference called 'unix' and I posted quite a few things in the Internet and Web conferences. You'll find out about the seven new domains that are going to be on the Internet. This will shake things up for sure. Maybe we should get austen.art? Or eeyieeyi.io? Or spring.firm? Things are going to get very interesting. You have to read the whole thing."}, {"response": 32, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (21:47)", "body": "What are you watching on tv right now? That's a new topic in the tv conference. Have fun with this one."}, {"response": 33, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (21:57)", "body": "In the sports conference, news of a womens' sports site that has been months in the making. Topic 39 on sports web sites ------------ go there -------------->"}, {"response": 34, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Feb  9, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "Like figure skating on ice? Then you'll like the new figure skating topic in sports which has all the latest schedules of ice skating events on tv. And there is a packers joke there too. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 4, "subject": "A thread for Darcy/Firth drooling and PG innuendo", "response_count": 15, "posts": [{"response": 4, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (02:49)", "body": "Ooh baby, now you're talking, this is the room for me! But I half expected Candace to have been here already and breathing heavily over the frequently wet Darcy/Firth! Oh well. Someone has to go first. My latest confession: Most of you know I was successful in applying my Darcy Look wallpaper. Love it. Also managed to download the \"In vain have I struggled\" speech from the FoF site. Love it. I have put this on my computer so that when Windows engag es, I hear Darcy professing his love for me. I must say that I knew it all along."}, {"response": 4, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (08:01)", "body": "But \"his hair, Cheryl, his hair! And his boots had at least 6 inches of mud on them! What can he have been thinking of walking, er swimming, in that way? I think it shows a certain boldness, a certain willfulness, not entirely proper.\" Caroline Bingley reached for Mr. Hurst's private reserve sherry, only managing to stop herself a the last moment, as Mr. Darcy reentered the room wearing his brocade robe and a superior smile. \"I have decided,\" he intoned forecefully, \"that in my own house I can wear and do what I d--n well please. Billiards, anyone?\" Caroline slithered to the floor in a faint, not so much at the pronouncement as at the physique sheathed in silk. (This segment has been brought to you by Royal Ties, Purveyors of Accessories for Fine Gentlemen, and by EII (Exciting, Isn't It) TV.) Cheryl- Couldn't resist creating a new moment in P&P2 for you & others. As to your earlier claim that he is professing his love to you, bravo!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cleo", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (10:55)", "body": ""}, {"response": 4, "author": "Donna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:28)", "body": "Yo! Cheryl he is a \"Hunk a Hunk of Burin Love\". It is definitly the way he \"looks\" \"sarnades\" and \"professes his \"love\" ME."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (13:55)", "body": "Thank you Cecily, that was most kind of you. If you will excuse me, I believe that I have an appointment in the Billiard Room."}, {"response": 4, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:15)", "body": "Bravo Ladies, Bravo! Mich"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:35)", "body": "So, Donna and Candace and Cheryl, did we ever decide how to properly address Mr. L-B?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:39)", "body": "Kali, only a Mrs. Elton type would refer to him as Mr. L-B. We show proper respect at all times and use the full Mr. Love-Butt in public. When in the privacy of the Drawing Room, I believe I shall call him Hunk-a. or perhaps, My Dearest, Lovliest Hunk-a. Yes, that sounds quite nice indeed."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (17:41)", "body": "Amy, I predict that this topic board shall soon be the busiest of the lot. I say this knowing full well that it does not sho us in a creditable light, but the fact still remains..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (18:02)", "body": "Oohh - I love this thread. All your images are purrfect. Cheryl - I've also downloaded the In Vain sound, but how do you get it to come on when you open windows? That would be fantastic - unless my husband turns on my computer - he might get quite a shock!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (20:59)", "body": "this mildly off topic - I just found some potential new drooling material, and am debating with myself the pros and cons of buying a book the main advantage of which is one picure... Have you seen the new BBC books hardback version of P&P? It has some lavish photos of the P&P2 cast - mostly posed publicity photos, but with a few stills, some but not all are in \"The Making of Pride and Prejudice\". There is one lovely photo of Darcy and Georgiana that I haven't seen before, with Firth at his most decorative. I already have 2 copies of P&P, so I didn't buy it, but I was sorely tempted. Anna"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (06:56)", "body": "Sorry, Cheryl...I just couldn't bring myself to write out \"Love-Butt\"! - K"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (07:06)", "body": "Kali, dear, are you up late or early? Myself, I have no excuse. I have been polyphasicking. No, HC, don't get excited about my use of a word with a poly- prefix."}, {"response": 4, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (14:45)", "body": "\"We are such stuff as dreams are made of\"- HAMLET A Personal Dream Sequence from 11/18/96 Note: This is retold for fellow-P&P2/CF fans enjoyment; identification with the I-speaker is encouraged, if desired, for further amusement. Last night I dreamt I went to Europe. The journey was full of more twists and turns than the real tour I took in college years: the landscape was overgrown with wild creepers; inns had a spectral look to them, despite the tourist crowds; and everything was seen in dim moonlight hues, since the dream indeed was one long strange night journey. Only with the entrance of a shadowy person who curiously resembled the owner of Pemberley did the mood lighten... I found myself in the middle of a trainride through the Black Forest, feeling out of sorts due to travel fatigue and loneliness, when a man entered the car from the back and took a seat across the aisle facing me (seating on this train was in foursomes, facing each other, on either side of the aisle). I thought him oddly dressed until I realized I myself was in Austen-era cape and dress. He reminded me of someone, though at the time I could not recall whom. But this face was that of a gypsy, and his clothes and manner freer than those of the other travellers. A maroon cape, white shirt, black pants in black boots, pistol thrust in belt, and gold earring under the black curls, along with a pair of fine dark eyes, focused many a woman's attention on him, I was sure. I struggled to keep my own eyes on the evergreen scenery out the window, as a matter of principle. An hour later, a number of us got off at a small village and headed for the one inn. A genial chubby host, Herr Herzen (!) provided a simple but tasty meal of peasant bread, cheese, and pilsner beer for us all at one long table. The gypsy taciturnly ate amid the chatter of two frumpy women nearby, then stalked to the fireplace. The stuffy atmosphere of the room soon drew me from the table to walk outside until our rooms were ready. I was stargazing under some pines when I heard a step behind me; tr ing to appear calm, I halfturned towards the inevitable maroon cloak. \"Good evening. You are, I believe, unaware of the fact that there have been robbers near here lately, and that it is unwise to be out alone.\" I admitted my ignorance but was grateful for his information, though I privately doubted its being the only purpose for his approach. Indeed, his eyes kept scanning the woods nearby, then coming back to me. Not thinking it suitable to remain there with a man I'd not been introduced to, I decid d to return when a thunderous sound of hoofbeats came toward the inn. \"Quickly, come with me!\" the gypsy muttered as he dragged me by the hand deeper under the pines shelter. A troupe of ruffians arrived, leapt from their horses, and stormed into the doorway, shouting and shooting. Panicked, I couldn't move, but my new friend did: he ran up to two of the horses, pulled them mightily by the reins back to the pines, and helped me mount up before whirling deeper into the forest ahead of me. Afraid of what was happening back at the inn, I found myself unable to question the idea of traipsing after this fellow into I knew not what. Besides, a little adventure seemed enticing And where had I seen someone like him before?? Some minutes later, he slowed his horse to a walk, and mine mercifully followed suit. \"I believe we can talk quietly here as we go,\" he murmured as his eyes swept my bedraggled appearance and shaking hands clutching the reins. I admitted to being exhausted and unnerved by the incident and asked our destination. He told me of his gypsy camp at a spring not many miles hence. Of course, I thought, his gypsy camp; he's a real gypsy baron out of legend! I felt my cynical humor rise, and then I felt the worst was over if humor was returning. In fact, I had an inexplicable urge to verbally trounce this man, despite his just having saved my life. \"I wonder at your knowing the robbers would be returning to raid tonight,\" I said lightly, probing the man of mystery with what I hoped was subtlety. It wasn't. \"Are you concerned for your safety with me?\" he mocked, brows arching quizzically. When I squirmed he went on more kindly, \"Have you never heard of a gypsy's 'second sight' ability to foretell the future?\" \"I'd supposed to be mere fiction,\" I retorted, puzzled by other images starting to flash in my mind's eye of my 20th century job and hom and a film character called Darcy... \"And have you never found someone in a dream of a deja-vue nature?\" he continued, leaning over and resting his hand for a moment on my horse's bridle. Shocked into silence, I stared in the trees ahead at a nearing campfire. Was the man a mindreader after all? And what odd fancies and pictures were dancing in my head? It was a relief when we arrived at the gypsy camp. My companion was greeted like royalty by his people, and the little old lady whose wagon I was to rest in assured me of his kindliness (rather "}, {"response": 4, "author": "mich", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (16:12)", "body": "Happy thoughts indeed.... thank you austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 46, "subject": "Jane and Bingley", "response_count": 28, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (05:27)", "body": "It's the smile; Bingley has the appeal of a really friendly puppy. If you watch the background scenes with Bingley, especially at Pemberley, he seems to be fairly consistently considerate and friendly. In many ways I agree with the recent poster (I'm sorry; I forget who, and it's too late to search) who suggested that for the long haul Bingley might make a better husband than Darcy."}, {"response": 2, "author": "geekman", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (06:47)", "body": "Bingley is refreshingly honest and very affable chappie who is not only approachable but also forward with people. He's the sort of bloke who'd make few enemies, the sort of man most fathers would be happy to see their daughter marry. Bingley also has an energy that's lacking in Darcy in the early stages. Perhaps that is the vigour and enthusiasm of youth, but it's probably also his personality that overcomes all adversary including Darcy's reservation of Jane. It is no doubt his smiles and his friend y manner that disarms the sisters and for them to willingly accept his invitations at the ball."}, {"response": 3, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (07:27)", "body": "I loved his last conversation with Darcy in P&P2: B: \"Do I have your blessing, then?\" D: \"Do you need my blessing?\" B: \"No, but I would like to know I have it, all the same.\" And his simple, non-combatitive attempt to steer Caroline away from her determined Elizabeth-bashing at Pemberly: B: \"I think that.....\" And Caroline just goes right on .. putting nails in her own emotional coffin, as it were."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Inko", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (20:20)", "body": "Katy, I've always wondered about Bingley's last conversation with Darcy. In the A&E program notes, Crispin Bonham-Carter said he was glad that Andrew Davies had allowed Bingley to make a journey of his own and to grow up. Yet that last \"Do I have your blessing\" makes him seem like a son asking his father for his blessing and not grown up at all. I think it would have been better if he'd just told Darcy, \"I'm going over to Longbourn to ask Jane to become my wife. I hope I have your approval.\" It would have shown that he'd made up his own mind regardless of Darcy's approval or not. Maybe it's nit-picking, but he still seemed so very young and puppyish to me at that point."}, {"response": 5, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Nov 29, 1996 (20:25)", "body": "Inko: but Bingley has indeed made up his own mind. He says he WANTS D's blessing but he does not NEED it. This is more independence than JA allowed him to show."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (00:46)", "body": "#1: Bingley has the appeal of a really friendly puppy. An excellent description IMHO. I think Bingley's asking Darcy for his approval is just an extension of his wanting to be on good terms with all the people who are important to him. Had Darcy said no, I fully believe Bingley would have said, \"That's too bad, Darcy; I would have liked to have had it, but it will not affect my actions.\" He's just a thoroughly likable guy."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (17:16)", "body": "I don't know -- Bingley was so easily led, I honestly wonder if he would have married Jane had Darcy still been disapproving. Did he have the backbone for it?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (17:21)", "body": "The thing is, if Darcy still disapproved, he wouldn't have made the confession about his interference would he? He would have left Bingley in the dark about Jane's real feelings and her being in town!!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "I always thought Darcy just felt like he had to come completely clean. If he was going to marry Elizabeth, how could he possibly object to Bingley's marrying Jane, now that he knew she really did return his love? And yes, I think Bingley, having learned that Jane's being in town was kept from him and that she did try to see his family (she visited the sisters, remember) was hellbent on having her before something else happened!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "The Lydia and Wickham elopement gives him an excuse,because he had to get them married first. After that he knew what he had to do for Bingely and Jane and for Elizabeth so she would forgive his interference. He said in his second proposal \"You are too generous to trifle with me. If your feelings are still what they were last April,tell me so at once. My affections and wishes are unchanged; but one word from you will silence me on the subject for ever.\" He still wasn't that sure of his fate with E izabeth and it didn't matter,because he knew he repair his friendship with Bingley."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (18:16)", "body": "This is what I think Darcy told Bingley. Darcy Confesses"}, {"response": 12, "author": "elder", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (18:26)", "body": "Ann -- that was wonderful. It seems very real to me. I shall have to read it again and again. Thank you very much for adding to our pleasure."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (20:34)", "body": "Oh yes, Ann, I can see Darcy staring into the fire, kicking at the logs, and getting his confession out! A heartwarming picture of real friendship between two men. I like it very well indeed!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Feb  3, 1997 (02:04)", "body": "Excellent! And fun!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb  3, 1997 (18:39)", "body": "I guess my question is: IF Darcy hadn't confessed his interference to Bingley, would B. have had the backbone to determine Jane's feelings for him on his own?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "kendall", "date": "Mon, Feb  3, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "To defend Bingley just a little ... he had been told that the girl he loved did not care about him but would marry for the advantages it would give her. \"Backbone\" may not be what is lacking so much as confidence in his own judgment."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (00:40)", "body": "I think Bingley would have gone on being convinced that Jane didn't care for him as much as he wished; he was too easily convinced of this by his faith in his friends and family."}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (11:14)", "body": "I guess that's what I mean by \"backbone\" -- he lacks the ability to trust his own instincts. (Think I've been unduly influenced by the current re-issue of STAR WARS?)"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (13:05)", "body": "Let me tell you how fun it was to take my little guys to Star Wars. Big fans, both of them -- 8 and 12 years old -- but had never seen it on the big screen. When the Millenium Falcon first hits light speed? Whooooosh! If you could bottle those kids' faces at that moment --- you'd be set for life."}, {"response": 20, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (16:15)", "body": "Amy - I agree. When I first saw \"Star Wars\" my boys were the ages of yours now and those faces were something to behold! Of course, we had to wait longer for the sequels - you can take them in a month or so!!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb  5, 1997 (11:04)", "body": "I saw the reissue in Westwood opening day. What a scene! We actually had a NEWS CREW in the back of the theatre filming us crazies in the audience! But getting back to Bingley. . .was the man so unable to ascertain his own (and Jane's) feelings that he was going to be _totally_ reliant on Darcy's version of events forever? Or not?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "elder", "date": "Wed, Feb  5, 1997 (22:11)", "body": "My personal feeling is that Bingley would probably not have returned to Netherfield w/o Darcy's encouragement. Once he was there, however, and was seeing Jane again, I really think he would have decided he had to know how she felt -- he would have proposed even without Darcy's confession. As long as Darcy stayed around, though, I think Bingley tended to rely on his friend's opinion. (Low self esteem again? After all, his own sisters never paid any attention to him!)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb  6, 1997 (11:15)", "body": "I hate to say you're right, Kathleen. But what kind of a mate is a guy who doesn't even know he likes you until somebody else tells him so? Does this auger well for the future?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Ann", "date": "Thu, Feb  6, 1997 (14:51)", "body": "Bingley knows that he is in love with Jane. He just doesn't know that Jane is in love with him! He is too unsure of himself to rely on his own intuition."}, {"response": 25, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb  6, 1997 (15:39)", "body": "Isn't that kind of a problem?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Feb  6, 1997 (17:27)", "body": "It probably is a bit of a problem, but maybe one Bingley will outgrow. He is, after all, younger than Darcy, and has not had all the advantages of his friend. After marriage to Jane, I predict that of necessity Bingley will become his own man (and Jane's, of course). Besides, Darcy is used to being listened to -- by family, servants, tenants, and of course marriage-minded young ladies! Darcy would always assume he knows better, and that alone can carry a lot of weight w/ someone younger and less secure."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Donna", "date": "Thu, Feb  6, 1997 (17:33)", "body": "Darcy relied on his intuition and look what happen to him. He could not have been more wrong. Sort of ironic how that worked out,because if Bingley would have asked Jane she would have said yes. I think Darcy knew that she would say yes and for the wrong reasons. His \"best\" friend misled him and Bingley's friend was misled by himself. Hey, maybe Mr.D. should have asked Mr. Bingely for advice. Who does not rely on a best friends advice."}, {"response": 28, "author": "MaryC", "date": "Mon, Feb 17, 1997 (14:40)", "body": "Just read 'Darcy's Story'. This whole sequence of events is laid out very nicely by the author; at least it was to my satisfaction. She does a wonderful job of 'humanizing' Darcy as she traces his mental progression from Elizabeth's confrontation about Jane and Bingley during the first proposal to the point where he achieves Bingley's return to Netherfield in order to try and reunite them. Done 'very well indeed'. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 8, "subject": "Maurice", "response_count": 3, "posts": [{"response": 8, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:43)", "body": "Me. Laura did you ever see my quick scribbles about Brideshead? Have you seen or read Brideshead Revisited?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:23)", "body": "Amy, thank you. I would like to have HC watch and get his reaction."}, {"response": 8, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (20:14)", "body": "Laura -- why don't you restart the Maurice thread, either here or on topic #3 or on a new topic or whatever. I accidently managed to watch, but I'm not very good at starting the discussion. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 83, "subject": "Husband: Bingley or Darcy?", "response_count": 124, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "clueless", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (14:22)", "body": "Yeah right that is such a lie!!!!!!!! Have you seen Darcy's bod. O my God! and he is so nice. Bingley is better for Jane thatt is for sure, but Darcy is like \"My dearest Loveliest Elizabeth\" And he is totally all over her. They are totally in love. They totally go together because She's impulsive E-mail me with your opinion."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (14:24)", "body": "Kim, consider yourself shot! ;) - Kali PS - You don't happen to be Kim Davis from Stockton, do you?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Kim", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (14:33)", "body": "Please pay no attention to my original posting. As Kali has informed me, this was already discussed. Oh well, I must have missed it. I only hope that I didn't miss anything juicy. For Kali: No, I am not from Stockton m Stockto n."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (15:20)", "body": "Whilst Darcy has all the charisma, I'm still not sure of the answer to this one; would Darcy smoulder at one over breakfast?? horrible thought!!!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (15:40)", "body": "It's okay, Kim...we can do it again...I was just being a samrta**, taking after my dear Auntie Cheryl...;)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (16:16)", "body": "Bingley is the quintessential Nice Guy, but I think he would get rather boring. Darcy strikes me as a person of more intelligence who's more perceptive about the world."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Dec  9, 1996 (18:11)", "body": "To be honest my main concern re Darcy would be can he maintain his new reformed self, or, having won the prize will he lapse back into his previous selfish and arrogant persona. With the best will in the world I don't think it's possbile to change one's basic personality, and even changing behavior patterns is very hard. I think Lizzy has the energy and optimism to cope with the occasional relapse, but I woudln't care to attempt it myself..."}, {"response": 8, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Tue, Dec 10, 1996 (07:39)", "body": "Darcy! I like a little smouldering and brooding melancholy sometimes, as I like rainy days in gorgeous landscapes sometimes. Bingley is too nonstop cheery and lilting. Darcy has unexplored depths and passion."}, {"response": 9, "author": "saskia", "date": "Tue, Dec 10, 1996 (11:04)", "body": "I don't know. But I have to confess I have a fancy for Bingley. Not so compelling, however, anymore, that I am as sure as I was two weeks ago about preferring him to Darcy. You see, in the beginning I had really a crush on Darcy and didn't notice Bingley more than necessary. But then, I don't know why, Bingley caught my attention more and more, until I began watching P&P (almost)just for him. He is so kind! And really cheered me up when I was tired and/or sad. He's so kind! But Darcy is so exciting! I don t know anymore... It's just that I can imagine a family life with Bingley but not with Darcy and passion with Darcy, but not with Bingley..."}, {"response": 10, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Tue, Dec 10, 1996 (11:10)", "body": "]It's just that I can imagine a family life with Bingley but not with Darcy and passion with Darcy, but not with Bingley... Isn't that always the way?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Dec 10, 1996 (11:16)", "body": "What about marrying neither -- nobody. And keep them both as buddies."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Dec 10, 1996 (16:45)", "body": "Amy...have you lost it? Of course I'd marry Darcy. In a New York minute. In a heartbeat. Immediately. Before the question is even asked. No contest whatsoever. And it's not just beause I'm attracted to his aura...it's because he's the type of person I could appreciate living with day in, day out...He would be an equal, a challenge. I'm afraid someone like me would pulverize poor Bingley. - K"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Dec 10, 1996 (16:53)", "body": "Kali said: \"I'm afraid someone like me would pulverize poor Bingley.\" But I bet he would die with a smile on his face!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (01:43)", "body": "Re 83:11 All neat and tidy... Amy, you amaze me! Buddies indeed? How could you manage that? Well Bingley of course, he would be nice for chats and long walks, occasional video evenings and so on. But can you honestly say that your heart would not jump, if you answered the doorbell and Fitz was outside? And go for long walks together without wishing he would bump into you occasionally. And would you not be touched if you caught him ringfiddling? And would you be able to sit in a dark theater next to Darcy, watching a movie or listening to say The Marriage of Figaro with total concentration on the screen or scene?! No no this can not be the absolute truth."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Elaine", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (07:37)", "body": "Isn't the trick of passion its evanescence? In September when we viewed P&P2, my teenage daughter thought Darcy \"awesome\". A couple days ago, the only one she could talk about was Romeo. I asked her what happened to Darcy and she told me that Darcy was so \"last month\"."}, {"response": 16, "author": "saskia", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (10:42)", "body": "I am in favour of the buddy-option. Besides, I am already married. Before I saw P&P 2, of course, but what can one do? It would be fun to share a house with Darcy and Bingley and Jane and Lizzy and dear Georgiana and, though you may think him a little ill-timed, Josh from Clueless (I've a fancy for him too. I'm sorry!)."}, {"response": 17, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (11:26)", "body": "Kali: I'm with you. I think Darcy would be a more difficult person to live with, but much more challenging. Bingley would start to bore me in about a week."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Adi", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (12:29)", "body": "Kali, I'm confused: do you prefer Mr. Darcy or Mr. Knightley? you can't have them both, you know. you have to leave at least one of them to the rest of us..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (14:32)", "body": "Ann2, Friends can make the heart beat faster,and those who raise passion can be friends."}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (15:34)", "body": "Hilary: What about the WHEN HARRY MET SALLY contention that men & women can never be friends?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (15:49)", "body": "contention that men & women can never be friends? Rubbish! (imho)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (16:39)", "body": "Adi, I'm having a little trouble making up my mind...I think I'd have to say Darcy at this point...younger, more energetic...but you know, who says that the qualities of each must be mutually exclusive? - K"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Ann", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (18:33)", "body": "Actually Bingley is supposed to be (probably) several years younger than Darcy."}, {"response": 24, "author": "kendall", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (19:16)", "body": "contention that men & women can never be friends? they can as long as they are both head-over-heels in love with someone else!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Karen", "date": "Wed, Dec 11, 1996 (19:48)", "body": "DARCY! Ever since I have seen P&P2 and read the book he has been the ultimate man for me. Bingley is nice but I am like Kali; Men like Bingley would be intimidated by me. Only someone like Darcy would put up with me. We cannot forget Darcy's passion either. Bingley is sweet but I want more. . . Karen"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (00:59)", "body": "Re19 Hilary(or hat?) Friends can make the heart beat faster, and those who raise passion can be friends But the heartbeat can increase for *different* reasons can it not? I think I know what you mean when you experience that happy feeling of silent and complete understanding with a friend, male or female.But surely you agree that the HAB(heart attaching belly)-aching feeling from physical attraction is something else? And doesn't the passion have to vanish before the \"only friends times\" can start?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (11:17)", "body": "I think that Nora Ephron & Rob Reiner's point in HARRY MET SALLY was that men and women could never truly be _platonic_ friends, because the sexual angle would keep getting in the way. I'm not sure if I agree or not, since most of my male friends are gay!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (13:36)", "body": "'contention that men & women can never be friends? Rubbish! (imho)' - Anna' My opinion too. I've not seen 'Harry met Sally'. Ann2 Hilary(or hat?) - yes, the same. But the heartbeat can increase for *different* reasons can it not? - certainly. But surely you agree that the HAB(heart attaching belly)-aching feeling from physical attraction is something else? - yes it is. I think you can experience it with a friend. It makes life complicated, there's no doubt, but it happens. And doesn't the passion have to vanish before the \"only friends times\" can start? - no."}, {"response": 29, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (16:12)", "body": "I guess I saw a different point in Harry & Sally movie -- I thought they did become friends, then the sexual attraction entered in. They remained friends, however, even w/ the romance. I have two close male friends, no romantic/physical entanglements, and neither is gay. I can talk on the phone for 2-3 hours at a time w/ one of these guys -- in fact I've been trying to convince him to read JA's novels since he liked P&P2. Anyway, there are exceptions to all rules in human relationships."}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (16:24)", "body": "It's a tough call. I think it's pretty hard for men/women to put the sexual angle aside, even in a platonic relationship. Even poor Lizzie found herself unconsciously attracted to Darcy, a man she thought she hated. . ."}, {"response": 31, "author": "kendall", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (18:04)", "body": "Here is a great web site for laughing over platonic friendships: Excuses We Make for Ourselves It seems to me that since this is basically a man's world, we women need all the male support we can get, and so we try to turn would-be lovers into friends. Men, on the other hand, do not really need female friendship - at least not to the extent that women need male friendship. I think that most platonic friendships between men and women are based on the man's being at least a little bit in love with the woman, and the woman liking the man (but not as a lover) and needing the friend."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (18:21)", "body": "Ann, my response to Adi re: Darcy results from a comparison of Darcy with Knightley, not BIngley...;) Sorry! ;) - K"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (19:10)", "body": "If we're allowed our pick, how about Wentworth?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Kim", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (08:46)", "body": "Good point, Anna. The more I think of Wentworth, the more I like him"}, {"response": 35, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (11:34)", "body": "Kendall, you've completely nailed it! I think you need your own call-in radio show!!!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (14:01)", "body": "Hell, I think I'll get outta here and go eat woolly worms. I'm obviously out-numbered. Why don't we get down to the basics of genetic biology and say men want quantity and women want quality, because for each, its the best way of passing on their genes? I think this is more true than man/ woman politics."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (14:31)", "body": "Good point, Hilary...but I think the really right-thinking people of both sexes are interested in quality mates...what human being in his or her right mind would pass up a remarkable person for a piece of meat? ;) Certainly, people get caught up in situations from time to time, and lose track of reality and the unknown possiblities the future holds, but anyone who's rational would certainly have to prioritize...and at least try to make a logical decision regarding relationships. Does this make sense? ;{"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (00:16)", "body": "Thanks,Kali! It does. The biologists have answers for that too, of course!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (08:04)", "body": "Lovers or friends? Kendall: think that most platonic friendships between men and women are based on the man's being at least a little bit in love with the woman,... This brings up the question \ufffdWHAT IS THIS THING CALLED LOVE\ufffd! Does anyone have a short answer? Hilary: Why don't we get down to the basics of genetic biology and say men want quantity and women want quality, because for each, its the best way of passing on their genes? I wonder if it is a language matter, Hilary or if we just define friend differently. I don\ufffdt know what I call those men that have mental qualifications *and* are dangerously attractive. But they are something different from those friends, you just occasionally experience as beeings of the opposite sex. Kali: .but I think the really right-thinking people of both sexes are interested in quality mates...what human being in his or her right mind would pass up a remarkable person for a piece of meat? ;) But preferring quantity might mean that a man would like both, if he did not have to suffer the consequences?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "summit", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (09:33)", "body": "Don't forget that some women in life actually resemble Miss Piggy's attitude of \"so many men, so little time\" and operate from that premise, much like those men who also like quantity. Hollywood is riddled with them, male and female."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (13:41)", "body": "What?! Is *this* thing called love? What is this thing called, Love? What?! Is this *thing* called love? 'men that have mental qualifications *and* are dangerously attractive.... Ann2, it may be unusual, but I have a friend of many years standing who is like this."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (18:19)", "body": "Homo sapiens are not naturally monogamists! IMHO."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (18:19)", "body": "Homo sapiens are not naturally monogamists! IMHO."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (18:23)", "body": "After what Mr. Darcy went through I think he would be loyal to Lizzie."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Ann", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (18:27)", "body": "I'm only saying that naturally , in the wilds of pre-historic nature, humans are not monogamists. It is society --which is artificially created--which makes them so. Today, and historically, polygamy is and has been widely practiced (even the rare case of polyandry ;-) )."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (20:56)", "body": "I have always enjoyed Katherine Hepburn's line from African Queen: \"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are here to rise above!\" (ooh, must go add African Queen to my fav movies list!)"}, {"response": 47, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sun, Dec 15, 1996 (04:01)", "body": "contention that men & women can never be friends? I was too busy last week to say why I disagree so strongly with this statement. I know it's true for some people, but it's not a universal truth; it's certainly not true for me. If you believe it it's a self-fulfilling statement, and I find it a depressingly limiting and limited way of looking at the world. Personally I could not accept as a lover anyone who could not be a friend. There are many basic drives that have the potential to prevent or destroy friendship; besides sex I there's the desire for attention, power and competition for certain limited resources. On occaision some of these have been said to prevent friendship between women (in a detective novel written by a woman i the 70's I came across the statement that single women could never be friends brecause they would be in competition for a husband - I disagree with that too). Very young children are totally self-centered and expect their wants to be met before anyone else is considered. Learning to modify some of one's own expectations to fit in with society as a whole and so that others can have some of their needs meet too is essential to adulthood in any functional society. Bonking aside, amongst my aquaintance, some people like both sexes, some are only comfortable with their own. I have seen this with heterosexual men and women and I know some gay men who have woman friends, and others who would be happier if they never had to meet another woman again. I also think that seperating the relationship between lovers from all others is in part an artificial distinction. There are varying degress of affection, sensuality and passion in all human relationships. \"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are here to rise above!\" bravo"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Dec 15, 1996 (13:17)", "body": "Anna, you're wonderful! I absolutely agree."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Dec 15, 1996 (13:22)", "body": "Hil, I thought you would be gone by now. Please have a great trip and think of us? You aren't going anywhere near the Bellinger River are you?"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sun, Dec 15, 1996 (15:46)", "body": "Amy, I think Hilary must have gone by now (Monday morning) do you mean Bellingen River as in Oscar and Lucinda? If so no; it's in North NSW, Hilary is going East from Melbourne to Adelaide"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Dec 16, 1996 (00:34)", "body": "Hilary is going East from Melbourne to Adelaide I should stop posting before coffee; Adelaide is west of Melbourne. (East, West, Port, Starboard; petty details anyway!)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Mon, Dec 16, 1996 (01:17)", "body": "Anna! Very well put! That bit about varying degrees of affection, sensuality and passion..."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Mon, Dec 23, 1996 (23:00)", "body": "Christmas Eve! Adelaide, my step-sister's computer. Hi!!! I will try the chat room in a minute, but if I don't catch you there, happy Christmas, I\"m thinking of you lots."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Dec 28, 1996 (00:54)", "body": "Hi, Hil. Sorry I keep missing you."}, {"response": 55, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Sun, Jan 12, 1997 (23:13)", "body": "I realize you will think I've totally lost it - but - I would prefer Col. Fitzwilliam to either Bingley or Darcy. If I had the wealth to attract him I think we could have a real fun time together. He's seems so comfortable and gossipey, has great sense of humor and has been described as a man of the world and that is usually equated with a great lover. My vote goes to him. I do believe Darcy's arrogance would resurface and Bingley would bore me to tears."}, {"response": 56, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Jan 12, 1997 (23:21)", "body": "Col. Fitz, my dear, happy thoughts indeed. Amazing how little is mentionned in the \"Making of\" Book, a little picture that's all..."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 12, 1997 (23:26)", "body": "I don't know if I'd go quite that far, Caroline, but Col Fitz is very likeable and sympathetic as a character, and I grew to like him even more in P&P2."}, {"response": 58, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (12:42)", "body": "What about the elusive Captain Denny? I think a previous thread discussed his desireability. What's wrong with him for one of the younger girls?"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Anna", "date": "Mon, Jan 13, 1997 (16:14)", "body": "]What about the elusive Captain Denny? I think that in the book Denny was Wickham's closest friend and knew that he was intending to run off with Lydia, but not marry her. Since Denny didn't try to interfere I doubt that he would be good husband material, besides, his income was probably at the Wickham level (militia, not regulars); insufficient to support a family."}, {"response": 60, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "Too bad. In P&P2, he was pretty cute!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (14:59)", "body": "Was amused by Anna's earlier comment that Darcy would probably smoulder at the breakfast tabel and doubted that she could take that. I was married for many years to a dark smouldering man whose looks would put Darcy in the shade. Anna, you are right. Eventually, you want to yell\"Quit going around smouldering. Lighten up!!!\""}, {"response": 62, "author": "Pandora620", "date": "Tue, Jan 14, 1997 (15:00)", "body": "Scuse typo. Table, that is."}, {"response": 63, "author": "Meighan", "date": "Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (18:05)", "body": "I am totally on Darcy's side here...he is the absolute best. He may not smile alot but when he does you just want to melt. One thing I noticed in the earlier postings is that someone said they didn't know if Darcy would keep his 'new' persona up. The thing is..he doesn't have to. He was always a nice guy to those that were close to him. He was just not too sociable to others. He was raised in high society and found himself thrown for a loop when he fell for Lizzie. I think he would make the best husband because he seems to have a good sense of humor when he chooses and definately passionate!!"}, {"response": 64, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (04:15)", "body": "I know this is beyond the scope of this topic, but I am of the mind that Mr. Knightley would make a perfect husband...just as good as Mr. Darcy..."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (08:16)", "body": "I think it would be obvivous that Mr. Darcy at least it is to me that he would want Lizzie to be a free thinker,Kali. To be able to make choices for their benefit if he couldn't. That is why they are better match. Mr. Knightley Mr. Knightley, I am sick of Mr. Knightley, he is a very good dancer"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (16:09)", "body": "#64 Yes, Kali, you know I agree with you on this one. I could never be sick of Mr. Knightley!"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (16:22)", "body": "Donna, I'm with you. I'll take Darcy, and the rest of you can have your Mr. Knightly!!"}, {"response": 68, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (17:28)", "body": "I do get the sense that Darcy & Lizzie are more intellectual equals than Emma and Mr. K. The considerable age difference between the latter couple is such that it might turn Pygmalion/Galeata sort of relationship."}, {"response": 69, "author": "summit", "date": "Tue, Feb 11, 1997 (19:59)", "body": "Some people quote the Bible; I find quotes in Shakespeare that can express what I need to say sometimes. Imagine this to be Lizzy (or we Darcy aficionados) explaining why she/we can admire and love this man/character so much. \"Since my dear soul was mistress of her choice, And could of men distinguish, her election Hath seal'd thee for herself: for thou hast been As one, in suffering all, that suffers nothing; A man that Fortune's buffets and rewards Hast ta'en with equal thanks: and bless'd are those Whose blood and judgment are so well commingled That they are not a pipe for Fortune's finger To sound what stop she please. Give me that man That is not passion's slave, and I will wear him In my heart's core,ay, in my heart of heart, As I do thee.\" HAMLET, III, ii The ironic filip to this is the phrase \"not passion's slave\": Darcy is quite passionate but without losing himself totally in the process. This capability reminds me of the Buddhist idea of being a calmly detached witness of what one's own self is, (and is up to). Darcy is more aware than Bingley could ever be, and that is why I would respect, love, and prefer him as a husband"}, {"response": 70, "author": "breezin", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (20:57)", "body": "Darcy's one sexy dude, man! He'd provide all the heat you'd need for years!"}, {"response": 71, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 12, 1997 (23:08)", "body": "That's a great quote, Wendy. I agree with you about Darcy being passionate without losing all sense or reason. He knows which woman in the world is right for him, and he goes after her with a vengeance!"}, {"response": 72, "author": "Kali", "date": "Fri, Feb 14, 1997 (07:17)", "body": "Amy2: I can't say that Lizzy and Darcy are intellectually better-matched. Emma is certainly intelligent, just less mature than Mr. Knightley. She already knows quite a bit of the world, though not everything! (Who could at age 21? I certainly don't!). The difference, Mr. Knightley puts very succinctly, is in \"the advantage of sixteen years' experience, and not being a pretty young woman and a spoiled child.\" He understands her faults, but he appreicates her progress and her potential. And the book proves that they can spar with just as much spirit as Lizzy and Darcy!"}, {"response": 73, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "I can't say that Lizzy and Darcy are intellectually better-matched. You tell 'em, Kali. Emma and Knightley deserve more respect."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Feb 15, 1997 (02:01)", "body": "Yay, Susan!"}, {"response": 75, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Tue, Feb 18, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "Nobody has mentioned the sisters-in-law! If for nothing else (ha!), Georgiana would be far superior!"}, {"response": 76, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (11:10)", "body": "Right, poor Jane, with relations such as Caroline & Louisa! Do you think they'd torture her much after her marriage? Or keep a respectful distance?"}, {"response": 77, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (19:28)", "body": "or perhaps a disrespectful distance"}, {"response": 78, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Wed, Feb 19, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "Wendy, I really appreciate the Shakespeare you cited. What a great fit! Thank you."}, {"response": 79, "author": "McKenna", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (11:19)", "body": "I think Darcy very sexy, and that's important in a husband, but Bingley seems the more stable of the two. However, I respect Darcy taking responsibility for his actions and being open about them. Bingley just avoided Jane when he thought she was outside his grasp socially. He needed Darcy's approval to persue Jane, what a whimp! I'd take Darcy anyday."}, {"response": 80, "author": "sage", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (15:38)", "body": "Bingley is a wimp; Darcy is a hero. I respect Darcy's character. Darcy is true to his feelings when he realizes that he fell in love with Lizzy. He is mentally strong and reliable. His financial management skills seem to be excellent. He has integrity. And that constrained PASSION!!! It's probably hard to live with Darcy because he doesn't seem to open up much, but hey, with his good looks and fortune, I will just live in the other wing of Pemberly. :)"}, {"response": 81, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (15:43)", "body": "That's the nice thing about being of that class and age, Sage. I always thought living in a duplex would be a perfect way to be married or living almost together. These days of constant companionship are for the birds!"}, {"response": 82, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "I always thought living in a duplex would be a perfect way to be married or living almost together. These days of constant companionship are for the birds! Too right, Amy. I've always contended that I'd like a man in my life, but I don't want one in my house."}, {"response": 83, "author": "summit", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "And don't some men feel the same way! No wonder the poor guys are always waxing cars or tinkering in the garage/workshop, yard, or basement. My grandfather used to go alone to \"Check\" the country house on weekends, too."}, {"response": 84, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Feb 21, 1997 (21:27)", "body": "#79 Tammy Bingley just avoided Jane when he thought she was outside his grasp socially. He needed Darcy's approval to persue Jane I didn't get that impression. I think he was convinced (by Darcy and his sisters) that Jane didn't feel as strongly about him as he did about her, and for whatever reason, he didn't have the stuff to find out for himself. So yes, I guess in that way he's a wimp compared to Darcy, who will have Elizabeth at whatever the cost. #82 I've always contend ed that I'd like a man in my life, but I don't want one in my house. You've got it, Myretta! I love my husband, but it's great when he's gone for a few days. Katherine Hepburn once said that men and women are not suited to living together, and should just live next door to each other and visit now and then. She should know -- she and Spencer Tracy never actually lived together."}, {"response": 85, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Sat, Feb 22, 1997 (09:52)", "body": "Besides, Bingley smiled with his mouth open! ewww"}, {"response": 86, "author": "candace", "date": "Tue, Feb 25, 1997 (22:56)", "body": "Re: Best Husband -- How about this...The wealth and appearance of Mr. Darcy, the willingness to please of Mr. Binley, the awe of affection of Col. Brandon, and the way with words of Capt. Wentworth. Ah, the perfect male! Re: #82I've always contend ed that I'd like a man in my life, but I don't want one in my house. -- Do you guys really feel this way? I am truly astonished. Maybe you are confusing living with a man with living with a man? What I mean is that there is a difference between living under the same roof and thinking that you have to spend every minute together. Everyone needs their space, men and women alike. Most times my husband is doing things and I am doing other things (such as the many hours that I spend with all of you), we are under the same roof together but enjoying things separately. Even though he might not be a part of what I'm doing at the present, I love the fact that he is nearby. Then when we sit down together, we enjoy our time together. I truly don't mean to sound preachy...I really don't...so, please do not take it as such. Sometimes a comment is posted that I suddenly get a passionate need to express my opionion. This is such a time, as I have just arrived home after spending two days at a conference. :-)"}, {"response": 87, "author": "mrobens", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (05:40)", "body": "Maybe you are confusing living with a man with living with a man? Trust me, Candace, I've been around long enough to understand the difference. I have never desired to spend every minute with any person. You are fortunate in the man you live with. Not all have that same experience."}, {"response": 88, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "I do love my husband and enjoy his company, but I also love when he's gone and I have time to myself. There's an episode of \"Mad About You\" that perfectly expresses my feelings: Jamie has gone to spend a few days with her father and Paul sees her off with all the appropriate \"will miss you terribly\" language, then he shuts the door behind her, surveys the apartment, and breaks into an impromptu jig, singing gleefully, \"I have it all to myself, all to myself, all to myself!\" That's what I'm referring to that feeling that I don't have to worry about anybody but me for awhile."}, {"response": 89, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "M 87: Not all have that same experience. Like playing russian roulette sometimes, no? What amazes me is to be able to spent time on your own and thus growing apart from your mate, resourcing yourself to new things and then remeeting this other significant one and still finding a deep understanding while still going in the same direction, moving side-by-side on the same road. If this is it, it is very very fortunate. Who knows how long it may last, our wish is usually for ever."}, {"response": 90, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (20:05)", "body": "re living with men; I was wondering if living with another adult woman would be any easier? My man and I live together and successfully pursue some shared and some seperate interests, and I too enjoy time to myself when he goes away; being totally selfish and not having to consider anyone else's needs at home for a rew days. Living with someone else necessitates considering their needs as well as one's own; it's not gender dependant so I don't think living with another woman would be any easier than with a man."}, {"response": 91, "author": "Amy", "date": "Wed, Feb 26, 1997 (22:13)", "body": "Anna, does not being married help with any cultural expectation to be always together?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "Serena", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (01:34)", "body": "Your excuse please for breaking the flow.. but I have a decided opinion about a life with Bingley, naively happy (such a word??)and consenting as he is, would be a torment to be married to . Not quite the thing for decision making and almost helpless in his own affairs - says in book he writes letters so badly, cos his thoughts flow so fast, he cannot capture it all. And when he finally purchases an estate, it's closeby to Darcy's - yes, so the dream of the 2 sisters were at last fulfilled - but wouldn t such a man, almost without originality and imagination, be a touch 'weak'?."}, {"response": 93, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (06:07)", "body": "] but wouldn t such a man, almost without originality and imagination, be a touch 'weak'?. __ For us, who all identify with Lizzy more or we would not love the story so much. But for Jane... he seems just the thing. (To me anyway.)"}, {"response": 94, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (16:38)", "body": "re 91; Amy whilst the cultural expectation of being always together may in some cases make it easier for a woman to live with a man, because she has always expected to do so, it may make the less socialised even more claustrophobic as if she feels her choices are limited by other peoples expectations rather than by her own wishes. This less of a factor nowadays than previously as the alternatives increase. I've never tried living with another woman for any length of time so I'm in no position to make a definitive statement, I was just responding to what I understood to be the suggestion that men were harder to live with than women. Cultural expectations and personal space aside I suspect that for most people a lover is easier to live with than anyone else who is not a blood relative (and often easier than many of the them)."}, {"response": 95, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "You know, despite the trouble and the work and headaches, I find my children the easiest of all to live with. I count my blessings every single day that I am in my own little family now and my own home where everybody loves each other. But I guess what I was driving at, Anna, none too clearly, was this: it seems a little more acceptable to take time off from a live-in than from a spouse."}, {"response": 96, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (19:38)", "body": "] it seems a little more acceptable to take time off from a live-in than from a spouse. to most of society I guess it is so; one reason why I'm not married... I'm not surprised you find your kids the easiest to live with; even now I get along better sharing a house with my mother than with any of my girlfriends; afer all, many of my habits I picked up from her ;-)"}, {"response": 97, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:54)", "body": "Put my mother and I in a house together for more than a week and we tear each other's hair out. I've lived in lots of different platonic sharing arrangements, with two other women, one other woman, a man, a woman and a man. etc. I've been really lucky - no major disasters and some of the total strangers I have shared with have become my really good friends. It's important to have strong and clearly understood mutual basic ground rules. The last two houses I shared we each had our own bathroon and this was a major help in the house sharing process. I don't actually know that I would be happy at this stage living completely alone - though it's nice to have the place to yourself occasionally. Having a large and comfortable and private space to retreat to is essential. I think I'd want this even in a marriage. :-)"}, {"response": 98, "author": "kate", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (20:56)", "body": "I think that should be \"my mother and me\" I never did grammar...."}, {"response": 99, "author": "candace", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (22:18)", "body": "Kate said: Having a large and comfortable and private space to retreat to is essential. I think I'd want this even in a marriage. :-) Actually, this is what I was trying to get at in my post about living together vs. living together. IMHO, I believe that privacy is an essential part of a successful relationship. My husband and I agreed very early on that each partner must respect the fact that the other may need space and it is not a reflection of \"I don't love you\". This is what I ment about my husband doing the things that he needs to do while I do the things that I need to do, wheather this means...side by side...in differe t rooms...or even elsewhere. I do enjoy the times that I am alone in the house or away with my girlfriends, this only makes the time that my husband and I spend together even more valuable and enjoyable. We are not joined at the hip, but we share a home and our lives."}, {"response": 100, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Thu, Feb 27, 1997 (23:10)", "body": "]it seems a little more acceptable to take time off from a live-in than from a spouse. It depends on the understanding of the two parties concerns and the general cultural basis that prevails. Culture varies tremendously from one place/social milieu/etc. to another... BTW my comment is meant regardless of male/female gender, a personnal belief. And oh I agree with you Amy, our kids are so easy to live with, is this unconditionnal love? and why aren't we allowing it with our supposed equals?"}, {"response": 101, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (00:40)", "body": "] And oh I agree with you Amy, our kids are so easy to live with, is this unconditionnal love? and why aren't we allowing it with our supposed equals? ____ I don't know, Johanne. Maybe it's this: there is a measure of \"I wish you were different\" between parent and child, but it's okay. The feeling can exist along with tons of love. When your partner feels this way it hurts more. It's scorn, and takes up the place once occupied by love."}, {"response": 102, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (07:33)", "body": "with our parents/kids, we live with what we get - but our \"choice\" seems to be tied in with the fear of its changing, having been wrong, the chosen one's selecting another,...yeah, the unconditional thing"}, {"response": 103, "author": "summit", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (15:20)", "body": "It struck me how the Collinses' marriage has exactly these features- of a large enough house, couple spending time in different rooms busily and contentedly, etc. We may decry the rationale of their marriage initially, and find at least Mr. Collins to be a bit ludicrous and certainly unromantic, yet they DO seem to be a rather well-adjusted pair and living along some of our own guidelines, no?"}, {"response": 104, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (16:20)", "body": "] rather well-adjusted pair and living along some of our own guidelines, no? __ Good point, Wendy. But... but. but.....but"}, {"response": 105, "author": "elder", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (16:37)", "body": "] rather well-adjusted pair and living along some of our own guidelines, no? __ [Amy]Good point, Wendy. But... but. but.....but _____ But, I do not think that Jane Austen wanted us to like Mr Collins, or to think that Charlotte made the right decision in marrying him. I suppose we can, however, repect the fact that Charlotte is making the best of her situation. (Still, when I think of them in bed, it does make my skin crawl!)"}, {"response": 106, "author": "summit", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (18:49)", "body": "Exactly so: Miss Austen ironically showed us the Collinses, a probably even then realistic marriage, with a shake of her spinster's head AND then proceeds to shower more favorable descriptions and romance on other couples, without ever showing us how such \"better\" couples would survive the ordeals of actual daily married life and keep up that idyllic passionate and sentimental fervor... maybe because even she, JA, did not know if/how such was done successfully for long... (I am naturally playing the devil's advocate here, having myself dared all for love and marrying a man against parental wishes, etc.; we are still married today, after several other sibling marriages have foundered on both sides, though it takes great commitment and constantly further maturing to do so. Love is wonderful, and a child can help it bloom even more, but we too find the need for a little time apart in the days' togetherness.)"}, {"response": 107, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:21)", "body": "Was the Collins' marriage so different from the Bennet's (only rather reversed)?"}, {"response": 108, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:37)", "body": "The Collins' didn't have what I suppose there was at first : lust"}, {"response": 109, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:41)", "body": "Mrs Bennet was supposed to have been a beauty."}, {"response": 110, "author": "bernhard", "date": "Fri, Feb 28, 1997 (20:43)", "body": "oh yeah, good point ewww - the thought of anyone lusting after Mr. Collins - ewwww Actually, in P&P2, Mary seems to be obviously enraptured by everything he says, seems to be dashed when he asks Lizzy for the first dances, probably the closest thing to lust any woman would ever feel toward him"}, {"response": 111, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Sat, Mar  1, 1997 (00:15)", "body": "Ok! Somebody get the DUCK TAPE!!"}, {"response": 112, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (16:55)", "body": "I know this has come up on the Board before, but I do wonder how Darcy and Lizzy fare AFTER their marriage. With such diametrically opposed personalities, could they really live Happily Ever After? Or is this where romance fiction leaves off, and reality begins. . ."}, {"response": 113, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (18:13)", "body": "I know this has come up on the Board before, but I do wonder how Darcy and Lizzy fare AFTER their marriage. With such diametrically opposed personalities, could they really live Happily Ever After? Or is this where romance fiction leaves off, and reality begins. . . __ Oh good, Amy2. Let's do a new topic on this. I am afraid I have an idea or two some will not like."}, {"response": 114, "author": "Hilary", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (18:41)", "body": "Mr and Mrs Collins had no real regard for each other, beyond convenience, isn't that the material point?"}, {"response": 115, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (19:07)", "body": "#113 I know this has come up on the Board before, but I do wonder how Darcy and Lizzy fare AFTER their marriage. With such diametrically opposed personalities, could they really live Happily Ever After? Or is this where romance fiction leaves off, and reality begins. . . My reluctant vote is that reality will set in, with all its attendant problems. This was discussed somewhat in \"The Happiest Couple in the Whole Austen Valley\" thread in the Austen Archives (actually, maybe it's still active, just not being posted to)."}, {"response": 116, "author": "Inko", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (19:07)", "body": "Amy2: I know this has come up on the Board before, but I do wonder how Darcy and Lizzy fare AFTER their marriage. With such diametrically opposed personalities, could they really live Happily Ever After? Or is this where romance fiction leaves off, and reality begins. . . My own feeling is that they fare very well after their marriage. Once their big lesson is learnt (his re: not being so proud, hers so prejudiced) they are open to each other. He learns to share his concerns with Lizzie, while she learns how to fit into his upper-class world from him. I think they really do support, help, and enjoy each other. All the various sequals that have him not telling her his plans rather annoy me--I'm especially thinking of Tennant's Pemberley and the second book. I think he is glad finally to have a confidante and would therefore be unlikely to keep anything from Lizzie. I can even see them happy in old age, sharing their memories together. Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic - but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it."}, {"response": 117, "author": "Meggin", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (20:31)", "body": "Brava, Inko! I agree---what makes P&P so perfect is that two strong characters adapt in a manner in which both change for the better, yet neither is humbled. The only way Lizzie and Darcy could have had an unsuccessful marriage is if Lizzie had (for,I suppose, mercenary reasons) accepted Darcy's first proposal. Without the changes both underwent that would have been a doomed marriage! Imagine, she would have not realized his worth and he would have considered his marriage a degradation. Not at all co ducive to connubial happiness!"}, {"response": 118, "author": "sld", "date": "Sun, Mar  2, 1997 (21:03)", "body": "[ I think he is glad finally to have a confidante and would therefore be unlikely to keep anything from Lizzie.] I am of this view, as well. I really think what he was (maybe even unconsciously) 'looking for' was someone to be intimate with, and she is just such a person. Further, this couple more than many is very likely to deal with 'reality' without a great deal of trouble."}, {"response": 119, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (15:31)", "body": "Yes, they dealt pretty successfully with the reality of Lydia's \"infamous elopement\" and the unpleasant attributes of many of their intimates -- Mrs. Bennet, Sir William Lucas, Mr. Collins, Lady C., etc. But with one partner so naturally high-spirited and prone to satirizing everything, and the other basically \"grave & serious\", WILL THEY be able to get along on a daily basis? Or will they get on each other's nerves? I do wonder. . ."}, {"response": 120, "author": "sld", "date": "Mon, Mar  3, 1997 (23:45)", "body": "I don't think Elizabeth will get on Darcy's nerves. He seems to me, in his being so drawn to her for instance, to WISH to be around someone more outgoing and witty. That does not mean that he will ever be that way himself, but some of us do not need or wish to be around someone just like ourselves. I certainly do not think the Elizabeth/Darcy combination is in anyway incompatible. If anyone of the two is likely to get on anyone's nerves, it is more likely that Darcy will get on Elizabeth's. But we know that she is of a disposition to be very accepting of people the way they are overall. I am sure there would have been times when Jane got on her nerves, and certainly her mother and younger sisters did. But this never caused her general discontentment."}, {"response": 121, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (10:54)", "body": "I'm thinking of instances were Darcy wishes to be serious, and Lizzie might be making light of a subject he thinks is \"inappropriate.\" Just grasping here. . ."}, {"response": 122, "author": "Inko", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (15:13)", "body": "Amy2: I'm thinking of instances were Darcy wishes to be serious, and Lizzie might be making light of a subject he thinks is \"inappropriate.\" Just grasping here. . . Lizzie had a very strong instinct for what is serious and what isn't; she noticed all her family's improprieties when they occurred, though she might not have given them so much weight at Darcy did, since she was used to them. Also, she knew exactly what Lydia's elopement meant for her family. I don't think Darcy would ever have any complaint about her being inappropriately frivolous!"}, {"response": 123, "author": "sld", "date": "Tue, Mar  4, 1997 (20:15)", "body": "I'm thinking of instances were Darcy wishes to be serious, and Lizzie might be making light of a subject he thinks is \"inappropriate.\" Just grasping here. Well, did she show herself to be annoying in the book - make light of something when another person was in ill humor and in to mood for it? This all goes to judgment and maturity, I think."}, {"response": 124, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar  5, 1997 (10:49)", "body": "In her relationship with Darcy, I think their differing feelings contributed to this. When they talk about the nature of evil at Netherfield, he's quite serious & uncomfortable; she really doesn't care, because \"she's never desired his good opinion.\" Likewise, at Rosings, I think he's seriously trying to determine if \"50 miles of good road\" is too long a distance to be settled from her family -- he's quite serious & worried about the subject; she couldn't care less, and only applies it to her friend Cha lotte. Not that I fault her for this: it's just that he's coming from the P.O.V. of a man in love; she, of a woman who can't stand him. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 9, "subject": "HELP!", "response_count": 21, "posts": [{"response": 9, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (11:44)", "body": "Those who had trouble with your password authentication, please describe how you finally got it to work so we can advise others."}, {"response": 9, "author": "KatherineC", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (12:54)", "body": "Amy, I'm not sure what exactly I did. When the PW failed I backed out and chose a new user name and then chose the same PW and it worked !?! Katherine"}, {"response": 9, "author": "mich", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:17)", "body": "Amy, I went into to TV instead of scrolling down to find austin. Actually Cheryl was nice enough to expalin it to while we were on the chat line. Happy to be back talking P&P Mich"}, {"response": 9, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:21)", "body": "The same thing happened to me, it kept booting me out then finally strangely it worked. I am so glad we can use this. Laura"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:25)", "body": "Amy or Terry, will hitting the \"new\" button under ranges display for me the new messages for today or the new ones since I was here last? If the latter: cool!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Becks", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (15:45)", "body": "Amy, I just loged in via your former board and the address you put up. It must have been a problem with the system because it works fine now."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Stefanie", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:51)", "body": "For somw reason, when I use Amy's link I can not enter this site. I think the reason is that Amy lists the address as http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/all When I come, I type in http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/read/austen/all That seems to work for me. Hope that helps."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Stefanie", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:52)", "body": "For some reason, when I use Amy's link I can not enter this site. I think the reason is that Amy lists the address as http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/austen/all When I come, I type in http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/restricted/read/austen/all That seems to work for me. Hope that helps."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Stefanie", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (16:53)", "body": "Sorry that went through twice, I didn't mean to hit the button again. By the way it's really cool how this program automatically turned those adresses into links!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "kathleen", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (20:18)", "body": "No problems here (Fri evening, EST) w/ the link or the password. Also, my response box automatically wraps my text. I have Netscape 3.0 as my browser, if that matters."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (21:08)", "body": "Two protocol questions:- When I finish a session, should I be logging off somewhere? I haven't seen a log-off screen, so I've just been closing my browser - I hope I'm not leaving any loose chains lying around... If I log-on using different computers (one at home, the other at work - different ISPs), will the 'new' button work, ie, is the info at to which messages I've already read stored on my pc or by spring? Thanks for any help, Anna"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Amy", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (21:40)", "body": "Anna, I don't know a lot of answers yet. I don't log off. As for different computers, I think and new messages, I am pretty sure it is your user name that determines what messages you see, not your browser's memory of where you have been. So, yes, you can log on with the same user name on a different computer and your history should remain intact."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Anna", "date": "Fri, Nov 22, 1996 (23:29)", "body": "Thanks Amy - if things work out other wise I'll let you know. Anna"}, {"response": 9, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (01:09)", "body": "Over in topic 2 where people have been posting introductions there seem to be some problems with repeated postings. I had a particularly confusing experience in that topic, where I first entered my text and pushed the submit button (only once) and only one posting resulted, BUT it only had the first line of my text in it. Thinking that maybe I had to come in again in order to see my own post properly, I left the topic and then returned. Still only one line. So I began anew. This time the entire text ppeared after submission, so I left the topic having posted one one-line message and one complete one. When I returned the next day, however, I found first my complete posting, followed by TWO completely empty postings - and the one-liner was nowhere to be seen. How this came to pass I know not! But it does call to mind a useful question. Do we have the ability to remove postings that we may inadvertently have messed up here?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (02:05)", "body": "Take a look at the first several postings (not mine!) in topic 5. It appears that in almost every case if a paragraph gets to be longer than 6 lines, the 5th or 6th line is broken in the middle - occasionally even in the middle of a word. Why does this happen? Or more usefully, how is it to be prevented?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Anneother", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (03:25)", "body": "My problem is that I've had to get out of the habit of using the 'back' button, because every time I do my screen goes blank except for a \"DATA MISSING\" message, and then I have to reload. The first time I logged in it kicked me out, and when I went back it told me that the name I had chosed was already in use. I then started again, and it simply accepted both my name and the password, even though I thought it hadn't actually received them. I only hope that it doesn't put two identical messages down ev ry time I post!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (10:42)", "body": "We have a delete command but you have to have telnet access to use it right now. The *best* place to ask technical questions about the software's functioning is in the yapp conference which is emailed to the folks that created the software. How many folks here use telnet or want telnet accounts so they can have more options?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (12:50)", "body": "And regarding the questions about the 'new' button. It is based on your username and remembers what you've read. This is so you don't have to keep re-reading the same stuff."}, {"response": 9, "author": "churchh", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (15:19)", "body": "Yes, apparently you should make a start on a new line (i.e. make line break or paragraph break) every so often in the posting text entry box, or it will break the paragraph after a certain number of characters...."}, {"response": 9, "author": "jwinsor", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (15:48)", "body": "] Terry: ] How many folks here use telnet or want telnet accounts so they can have more options?\" This assumes an account here to Telnet into, does it not? One can not just Telnet into a specific conference? I do use telnet, but for use here in this conference, I would be unlikely to do so except to remove (or repair?) a messed-up posting. ] HC: ] Yes, apparently you should make a start on a new line (i.e. make line break or paragraph break) every so often in the posting text entry box, or it will break the paragraph after a certain number of characters.... Ugh! I hate having stuff like that \"dictated\" or imposed upon me - prefer to have control over my own text! (BTW, it also bugs me that html will not permit the \"2 spaces after a period\" convention. It really does make reading, especially on a screen, a lot easier on the eyes.) Another strange thing just happened. This is my second attempt to submit this - the first time, I made a tag error, and was quite gratified to find that instead of posting it messed up, it gave me an error message and what looked like a chance to repair the mistake before posting - so I did, and submitted again, but it did not post. Joan, too"}, {"response": 9, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 23, 1996 (18:32)", "body": "Joan, that would be something to mention in the yapp conference, as well the comments on the text breaking. The forced text breaks can be changed to allow no text breaking. austen conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 95, "subject": "Austen Heroines", "response_count": 74, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Anna", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (15:41)", "body": "Who is your favorite Austen heroine and why? Elizabeth Bennet; wit, intelligence, good-humor, energy, optimism Who do you think is the most developed and believable heroine? Emma Which character(s) do you most identify with? Mr Bennet"}, {"response": 2, "author": "elder", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (16:34)", "body": "Favorite heroine: Elizabeth Bennet, w/ Anne Elliot a very close second. Both are believable, intelligent, good people -- I would enjoy being friends w/ either of them, and they would be loyal friends, too. Most developed & believable heroine: Anne Elliot. I identify most with Lady Russell (my advice has never been quite so wrong, however!)."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (18:02)", "body": "I agree with you, Kathleen, on Anne being the best-developed and most mature heroine. Lizzy is my favorite overall...she's smart, down-to-earth, and decent. However, I identify most with Emma...;) - K"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Karen", "date": "Thu, Dec 12, 1996 (22:32)", "body": "My favorite heroine is definitely Elizabeth and I also love Anne Elliot (just like Kathleen). Again, like Kathleen I think Anne is the best developed and most mature heroine. I identify most with Elizabeth - she is willing to stand by her principles for matrimony even if it may mean being single. Karen"}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (11:42)", "body": "I agree with you all. Elizabeth is my favorite, but Anne Elliot is the best-drawn of Austen's heroines."}, {"response": 6, "author": "LauraM", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (15:48)", "body": "I think we all think alike. I, too, loved Anne Elliot. Being the same age as her and never married, but close to it. I was also told that I should break off the relationship. But mine was different, he was a jerk. Capt. Wentworth just had no money at the time. But they should have allowed that to change."}, {"response": 7, "author": "kendall", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (18:07)", "body": "I love all of JA's heroines. Even poor Fanny. Maybe especially Catherine Morland who was filtering experience through common sense and gaining knowledge at a rapid rate."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Carolineevans", "date": "Fri, Dec 13, 1996 (21:01)", "body": "Thank you, Katy Kendall! I too, have a soft spot for Catharine. And an even softer one for Charlotte Heywood, as incomplete as she is. I have to confess, though that the heroine who intrigues me the most,though I could never identify with her, is Susan Vernon. If written by a more modern author, she would be a great psychological study."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Becks", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (11:05)", "body": "I know most of you would say my idol is Lydia, but that is far from the truth. I ardently admire and love Lizzy for her zest for life, and sharp tongue. But I also have a soft spot for Marianne's romantic nature and energy, even if she was \"a bit\" impetuous"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (18:05)", "body": "I do like Anne Elliot for independent nature as she is loyal to her friend Mrs. Smith. Who is in need of a good friend but, who is not dwelling on her own misfortunes."}, {"response": 11, "author": "cat", "date": "Sat, Dec 14, 1996 (18:20)", "body": "I would have to say my favorite character is of course Lizzy. I think the most developed is of course Anne. I most identify with Lizzy with her wit, as mentioned above her zest for life, her love for nature and fresh air, and she is very intelligent, and Marianne she is full of a love for music, especially the piano and voice, and has a passion for poetry and Shakespeare. She is also very romantic. When she gives her heart she gives it as a whole, she doesn't believe in giving it in parts. If she lov s someone they know it. She also has recovered from a huge heartbreak."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Marsha", "date": "Mon, Dec 16, 1996 (17:54)", "body": "I suppose my favorite will have to be a tie between Lizzy and Anne. I love Lizzy because she is so high-spirited, charming, witty and has integrity, but I really like Anne because even though she is quiet, she has all the important qualities-and, most importantly, she never complains. She does not go around moaning that her life is broken. If anything, she is too helpful (e.g. w/ Mary). And I think she feels very deeply, but it is not on the surface, like in Marianne (I love her too) but is hidden deep in ide and is all the more intent for that. And I like Catherine, because I sympathise with her, and I think she is a very realistic portrayal of a 16-17 yr old. The one heroine I can't bear is Elinor-she always gets on my nerves."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Dec 16, 1996 (21:03)", "body": "Why does everyone dislike Elinor? I admire her quiet fortitude and organizational talents...;)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Inko", "date": "Mon, Dec 16, 1996 (21:13)", "body": "Kali, I agree with you. While Lizzie is my favorite, followed by Anne Elliot, I think there is much to admire in Elinor. I prefer her to Marianne. There is something of the same quiet fortitude in Elinor as there is in Anne. But nobody can replace Lizzie in my affections - her wit, liveliness and love of being outside - in fact her energy can't be matched in my opinion."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Dec 16, 1996 (21:28)", "body": "Does everyone dislike her? Marianne admits that her behavior should have been like hers. Elinor has to be strong for Marianne. I especially like the scene when they are all crying but, Elinor. She sits on the steps and has Marianne's cup of tea.It seems quite funny but,Oh, so desperate at the same time.It was heartwrenching to watch her suffer so."}, {"response": 16, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Dec 16, 1996 (21:35)", "body": "Donna -- I always liked Elinor. She seemed a bit too mature for a 19-year old (especially since that was about my age when I met her), but I admired her and appreciated her immensely. Emma T's portrayal was superb, was it not?!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Donna", "date": "Mon, Dec 16, 1996 (21:48)", "body": "You have met her! Well very good indeed and how does get on these days. Oh how is dear Edward.It was indeed SUPERB."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Dina", "date": "Wed, Dec 18, 1996 (18:22)", "body": "A thought: Lizzie is what Jane Austen was in private (or wished she could be like in public) and Anne Eliot was more like she really was. No wonder we are drawn to her novels, half of the above answers refer to wanting to be like her, we are like her, or want to be her friend. I think there is a lot to relate to if not currently then in our pasts in regards to the relationships, even if it is just basic. Or I am completely missing the boat and we all just want happy endings. Whatever. Dina"}, {"response": 19, "author": "churchh", "date": "Thu, Dec 19, 1996 (07:06)", "body": "She said that Anne Eliot was \"a heroine who is perhaps too good for me\" and Emma Woodhouse \"a heroine whom no one but myself shall much like\" (paraphrased from memory)... Her brother expressed the view that Jane Austen was both Elinor and Marianne of S&S -- click on the link at look at the first poem: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/othpoems.html (Note: the uts.cc.utexas.edu machine may be down over the next day or two...)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Dec 19, 1996 (14:15)", "body": "Does anybody remember who on AUSTEN-L wrote that nice piece about how he feels about the heroines? Was it Doug? Henry, you must remember; you remember everything. I'll try a search. It's worth a little trouble."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Dec 21, 1996 (21:58)", "body": "You got the Emma quotation right, H...but how wrong Austen was (though I know you agree with her...)!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Amy", "date": "Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (23:09)", "body": "Several months ago I wondered to Austen-L about how male Austen fans feel about the heroines. Here was the most thoughtful reply. ] print all of 006439 ] Item number 6439, dated 96/06/21 12:54:56 -- ALL Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:54:56 -0400 Reply-To: Jane Austen List Sender: Jane Austen List From: Doug Short Organization: UNC Subject: What do guys feel... In-Reply-To: Amy wrote: ] And that makes me wonder how male readers of JA feel about ] the heroines. Do you guys identify with them? Or do you ] want them? Or what exactly is your feeling about them ] as you are reading? OK, Amy, I'll bite. Your question is seems so natural, but oddly enough, I'd never really thought about my relationship to Austen's characters in such stark terms: \"identify with,\" and \"want.\" After years of reading the novels, I'm actually taken by surprise. Naturally enough, I relate to the heroines individually, not as a group, and in recent years my perceptions are enriched, or blurred, by the various characterizations in film and video. My favorite Austen novel is either P&P, Emma, or Persuasion -- whichever I've read most recently (although if I could only take one to a desert island, I'd probably pack P&P). But as for identifying with or desiring the heroines themselves, I guess it's sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes neither, and occasionally both. Gender difference presents no barrier to me in identifying with Austen's heroines. Since Austen never really gets into the heads of her male characters, I find that, Mr. Bennet excepted, I identify with them only in the most superficial ways. But I often and occasionally deeply identify with the women, and not only the heroines. I've been reading MP of late, and I see some of Mary Crawford in myself -- the many times I've made an impromptu attempt at wit, only to find I've unintentionally insulted someone or betrayed a flaw in my character. Similarly, like Emma, I probably couldn't have resisted the remark at Box Hill, no matter how much I might regret it later. And as the oldest of three children, I resonate very much with the role Elinor assumes in S&S. Fanny, Marianne and Catherine trigger paternalistic feelings more than either identification or desire. As far as \"wanting\" them, unlike Knightly and Brandon, I prefer a more mature personality, which brings me to Elizabeth and Anne. Curiously enough, I simultaneously identify with _and_ desire them, especially Anne. With Elizabeth, I confess that erotic fantasies ultimately overcome identification. But Anne! I can totally immerse myself in Anne's character and personality and at the same time want her passionately. One moment I'm Ann, the next moment I'm Wentworth. There are passages in the book that make my heart pound audibly, and I found the recent film version among the most moving of my cinema experience, rivaled perhaps only by \"The Piano.\" I'll reserve final judgment until I see ET's S&S again when it comes out on laserdisc next month, but my preliminary view is that \"Persuasion\" was the better adaptation and certainly the most underrated film of 1995. But alas the Austen character I most readily identify with, in age, station, temperament, etc. is Mr. Bennet. Substitute \"Learning Resource Center\" for \"library,\" and you've got me pegged: \"I shall be glad to have the LRC to myself as soon as may be.\" For in addition to books, I want my BBC Austen tapes (S&S, P&P, MP), my laserdiscs of Persuasion and P&P2 (S&S is on order), and of course, my computer, which gives me access to this digest, Henry Churchyards's indispensable web site (reason enough to buy a computer), and my Lotus Notes database of items from this list supplemented by fully indexed, searchable texts and of some of the novels -- P&P and S&S so far with plans to add the others this summer. In fact, my caro sposo (gag, I could never \"want\" Mrs. Elton) will be in town next week (yes, London), and dearest Eliza will take her place: I'll be spending several nights with a remote control in either hand comparing Elizabeth Garvey on tape with Jennifer Ehle on laserdisc, and with the real Lizzy in my lap as the exemplar and inspiration. Incidentally, my wife knows what I'm planning; at first she was offended that I'd consider such a thing in her absence, but I've promised to do it again when she returns. But Amy -- if you've read this far -- let me turn the tables on you. You mentioned identifying with Mr. Bennet, and I suspect most women want Mr. Darcy, but what other men in her books do you identify with? or want? or would mother? Doug Short Raleigh, NC"}, {"response": 23, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Dec 26, 1996 (23:38)", "body": "My favorite women. I'm going to have to think some more about this one. I still haven't made it to the final and third P&P tape. I'll let you know after I've digested some more of these tapes."}, {"response": 24, "author": "churchh", "date": "Fri, Dec 27, 1996 (04:59)", "body": "If we're discussing male attractions, then I've already revealed my personal preferences in chat... -- Lizzy Bennett, Anne Elliot Catherine Morland Marianne Dashwood Elinor Dashwood, Emma Woodhouse ..and with Fanny Price off to the side in a very special category that doesn't really fit on this scale. Some of the heroines I view more from the \"inside\" (I sympathize and identify with them somewhat), and some I view more from the \"outside\" (for example, I take a somewhat external, Henry-Tilney-eye view of Catherine Morland). Not sure I could explain it all as coherently as Doug..."}, {"response": 25, "author": "elder", "date": "Mon, Dec 30, 1996 (11:48)", "body": "Amy -- thank you for the post from Doug. He has described how I feel when I read the novels -- I am both the heroine and the hero, and I feel identification and desire at the same time. This works for P&P, Persuasion, and Emma, but less well for the other novels. This discussion has forced me to go back and start rereading the novels."}, {"response": 26, "author": "sysop", "date": "Mon, Dec 30, 1996 (15:48)", "body": "] This discussion has forced me to go back and start rereading the novels. __ Good, Kathleen. How long has it been. Be sure to tell us about how the books magically change for you and with you. I like that so much about Austen."}, {"response": 27, "author": "mrcollins10", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (14:15)", "body": "Anne Elliot's my favorite. Don't know just why. Thoughtful, generous to all. Much put upon by her pompous Whig aristo father, but has the power to stand up to him when she has to. Unimpressed by rank or wealth. To Anne a person's mind matters much more than titles or property. Despite being once persuaded by Lady R., against Capt. W., Anne Elliot's feelings were really very constant. What Wentworth could have seen in that Louisa Musgrove woman, I can't imagine. Compared to Anne Elliot, what could she be? As to the other issue--I don't think most men can identify with JA heroines, per se. We may admire them and their triumphs over the conventions of the time, but that's about it."}, {"response": 28, "author": "jane", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (14:23)", "body": "Carl, On the Austen-L, we are starting to read Persuasion together, very slowly, this week. If you aren't on the list and are interested, Henry Churchyard has all the information on his wonderful Jane Austen page. I, too, love Anne. It is interesting how Austen makes her initially faded and worn out, but then she blossoms again. The recent movie captured this well, I thought. Jane"}, {"response": 29, "author": "elder", "date": "Tue, Dec 31, 1996 (14:55)", "body": "Anne Elliot is the most mature of Austen's heroines -- in both years and emotions. She has a second opportunity to be a heroine in her life's novel; we only get to read the second of these. But this is another sign of her maturity, she takes these opportunities and does not blame others for her unhappiness. The other heroines either want to be in the wrong novel (Catherine Morland wants to be the heroine in a Gothic Romance, and Marianne Dashwood wants to be in a more conventional Romantic novel), write novels for other heroines (Emma for Harriet), or read other people's lives/novels (Lizzie and Fanny Price at times). I have come to see Anne as the best of the heroines, though not my favorite (that is Lizzie). Anne is kind, true, intelligent, and understanding. What a good friend she would make."}, {"response": 30, "author": "donr", "date": "Fri, Jan  3, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "My favorite Austen heroine is, without a doubt, Elizabeth Bennet. No, I never identify with the heroine - that thought never occurred to me. Reading about Elizabeth brings to mind a women who is a combination of my wife and favorite daughter, both of whom are witty, saucy, lively, and very captivating. I can identify, from my own experience, with many incidents that occur to the hero, especially the initial blunder that Darcy made by slighting Lizzy at the Meryton assembly and the great effort he must ake to win Lizzy's good opinion of him. Most of all, when I read P&P, I take great pleasure in reading a romantic novel that holds my attention. To the best of my knowledge, I don't fantasize, I just enjoy Jane Austen's remarkable ability to tell a good story."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (22:53)", "body": "I totally agree about Anne...but you must give the younger heroines time to sort out their scatterbrains and grow up (esp. Emma...she has lots of potential, and is very wise in many respects)! ;)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Mon, Jan  6, 1997 (23:31)", "body": "Knightley would'nt love her otherwise..."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Jan  7, 1997 (19:51)", "body": "Right-o, Johanne...and brownie points to Mr. Knightley for seeing it! ;)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "donr", "date": "Thu, Jan 23, 1997 (19:08)", "body": "After rereading Persuasion , I am making a rating adjustment of Austen heroines. On a scale of 1 to 10, I believe that Elizabeth rates a 10 and Anne a 9. Anne has a distinctly character from Lizzy, but she is a most fascinating young lady."}, {"response": 35, "author": "amy", "date": "Fri, Jan 24, 1997 (01:21)", "body": "Say more, Donald. What, specifically do you find fascinating about Miss Anne Elliot?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "donr", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (14:44)", "body": "[What, specifically do you find fascinating about Miss Anne Elliot?] I like her great inner strength of character; her ability to experience contentment in the midst of, which at the very least, are most difficult situations; her charming and pleasing manner; and most of all, her kindly nature which gives every indication that her married life with Captain Wentworth will be a model for wedded bliss. Incidently, as a former sailor myself, I also like Jane Austen's favorable portrayal of sailors in Persuasion ."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (17:12)", "body": "Donald, you refer to Anne's \"kindly nature.\" That is one thing that makes Mary's behavior all the more vexing. When she says, \"It is too unkind.\" RRrrrrrr."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (17:32)", "body": "] Incidently, as a former sailor myself, I also like Jane Austen's favorable portrayal of sailors in Persuasion. were you in the navy Donald? was it for long? I too liked JA's treatment of the navy; she seems to think rather better of them than the traditional hierachy, both for their defence of their country and for their energy and initiative."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (18:38)", "body": "Sir Francis Austen-Jane Austen elder of the two distinguished sailor brothers Charles John Austen,they both became Admirals. It seems that Jane Austen brother Edward was adopted,buy his rich childless cousin Thomas Knight. He did become his only heir. I just like to know if this happen very often in the 18th century with many families?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "Happened to Frank Churchill. Where o where did I see something about this -- maybe in an introduction to some edition of Emma?"}, {"response": 41, "author": "donr", "date": "Sat, Jan 25, 1997 (20:04)", "body": "Anna, you asked me: \" ...were you in the navy? ; and the answer is yes. During some of my most impressionable years (19-21), I was in the navy. I resigned at 21, (we were not at war at the time), returned to college, and didn't stop until I earned a Ph. D. in physical-organic chemistry. This brief but happy experience left me very partial to the Navy. Incidently, I was aware of Jane Austen's two distinguished sailor-brothers. I have often wondered why she did not, in her novels, give more mention o Britain's great struggle against Napoleon; especially since her country's very life was hanging in the balance."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (10:58)", "body": "//Where o where did I see something about this // Also in comments to Mansfield Park I think, regarding the bringing up of Fanny and maybe even her sister Susan, though they were not formally adopted I guess."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Amy", "date": "Sun, Jan 26, 1997 (11:04)", "body": "] comments to Mansfield Park __ Yes, that's it. Thanks Ann2."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Ann", "date": "Mon, Jan 27, 1997 (16:02)", "body": "I read, I think in the Susan Watkins book Jane Austen In Style , that is was indeed common for childless families to adopt a relative who would then become the heir."}, {"response": 45, "author": "Mari", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (12:55)", "body": "Perhaps the Bennets should have stopped after three girls and adopted a deserving young cousin.. but then they would not have cultivated Mr. Bingley's company so assiduously, never met Mr. Darcy...no, no, unthinkable!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (19:33)", "body": "I don't know that an adoption would work in the case of an entail. Mr. Collins probably would still get the estate."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (22:21)", "body": "Was the estate specifically entailed to Collins by the guy who left the estate to Mr. Bennet?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Ann", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (22:28)", "body": "No, just the nearest male relative, who happened to be Mr. Collins."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Tue, Jan 28, 1997 (22:32)", "body": "Kali, as you will learn next fall (in MUCH more detail than you ever wanted!), an entail is not a specific transaction but a system of transferring property that continues perpetually. It is similar to the inheritance laws governing royalty--the property (land, title, income, whatever) passes to the eldest son of the current owner, and then to his eldest son, etc. Women are excluded from tails. The only way that an entail could be broken would be for the current owner and his heir (when h reached his majority) to agree to \"break the tail.\" This is what Mr. Bennet had been planning to do; unfortunately he had no sons. What I don't understand is why, if the Bennet estate was entailed, was Mr. Collins's name not Bennet?"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Anna", "date": "Wed, Jan 29, 1997 (04:07)", "body": "] a system of transferring property that continues perpetually My references specifically said it did not continue indefinitely; for 2 generations after the man who set it up (I don't know if that included him); it then elapsed, but was often renewed (much less so this century). Furthermore if the current owner and his heir agreed the entail could be dissolved, but the heir would have less to gain unless he was in immediate dire need of money, as the owner could then sell the property and/or leave it elswhere. I too am puzzled by the Colins/Bennet surname bit; maybe one or the other (or a non shared ancestor of either) changed his name for some reason? I don't think the name-change would affect the entail, but they should be of the same legitamite male line."}, {"response": 51, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "Like most of you, my favorite Austen heroine is Lizzy, \"the most delightful creature ever to appear in print.\" I admire her loyalty to Jane, wit, energy, and vivacity and even identify with her(and Mr Bennett's) propensity to make sport of their neighbours. As for the best drawn Austen heroine, I agree that Anne is the best drawn, mature character. But, I would still make a strong case for Emma. All of those wonderful pages at the end where she realizes the follies of her matchmaking and her deep love for Knightley. With respect to the Austen character with whom I most identify: I think I was born a Marianne;(those younger, more vulnerable years) became an Elinor during those dreadful high school years:and now I think I identify most with Emma. I fear that i'm easily blinded. And, hey-I'm even letting my hair grow out and practicing GP inspired hairstyles in the mirror! Seriously, though, I think the wonderful thing about Austen is that we are all in one way or another composites of her characters."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Kali", "date": "Thu, Jan 30, 1997 (21:23)", "body": "And, hey-I'm even letting my hair grow out and practicing GP inspired hairstyles in the mirror! You too? ;) I have a whole collection of cool hair ribbons... Seriously, though, I think the wonderful thing about Austen is that we are all in one way or another composites of her characters. I agree with you...somewhere on this board I wrote something similar...in response to somebody else saying that she wanted to be like Lizzy..."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (09:37)", "body": "#51 I'm glad to see someone else making a vote for Emma. I've always found her to be delightfully irresistible, and much more real for me than Anne. Yes, I love Lizzy, too!"}, {"response": 54, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (13:07)", "body": "Susan-I'm delighted to find another Emma admirer. I agree too about Anne. I never really understood why she (so madly in love with Wentworth) could be persuaded By Lady Russell not to marry him. Still, it made for a gripping story and the proposal letter-I loved. And Kali-This is getting too spooky! I have some nice ribbons as well, and barrettes. Plus, I search stores for Emma-inspired clothes. My parents are beginning to think I'm mad."}, {"response": 55, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (19:08)", "body": "Chalk me up as another Emma Woodhouse fan. She's always been my favorite Austen heroine. Much as I like Lizzy, I've never been able to identify with her--she seems too perfect. Emma's lovable because she's as mixed up as most people. She has all the right feelings; her problem is in learning to govern her behavior. How lucky that she had Mr. Knightly. I've always adored him--he's the only fictional character I've ever fallen in love with."}, {"response": 56, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Fri, Jan 31, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "Anne-I think we are a steady and growing group of Emma fans. Besides the Age of Innocence(although I adore P&P), Emma is the only book that I read in one sitting. I think I stayed up till 3 in the morning to finish it. I am completely charmed and captivated by all the characters: Emma, the Westons, Miss Bates, and of course Mr Knightley. Wouldn't we all love to have Knightley in our corner? I am completely smitten with him."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (00:14)", "body": "Yes, yes, YES! And, once again, where were you when I was trying to make my case over on the Happiest Couple thread? Emma and George share the same level in society, the same family and friends, and a most thorough knowledge of each other. I've neve seen Mr. Knightley as lecturing her, rather than as helping her to see herself when she can't. I, too, loved this book so much and reread it every few years. Even though I love P & P, I've only read it once."}, {"response": 58, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (03:53)", "body": "Susan, I agree that no one could be happier than Emma and Mr. Knightley. I contend, however, that some of the other couples could be just as happy in their own way (though I would be happiest in Emma's shoes, myself). Everyone knows that I love Emma, and identify with her more than any other Austen heroine. I'd like to think that there is a lot of Lizzy in me as well, but alas, she is too perfect! Cassandra, I'm getting a dress made...I'm just as over-the-edge as you are, if not more so...;)"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Ann2", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (13:38)", "body": "I'm getting a dress made// Did you find that regency clothing firm, Kali? And pray tell... What colour will your dress be? Pink and white striped? You asked a question on Emma clothings and I cannot answer till I've seen the film again..."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sat, Feb  1, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "The archery scene...the pink/stripy dress...I'm thinking either pink or blue...who knows? I'm still gathering leads...Myretta found me someone who may be able to help... ;)"}, {"response": 61, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (01:43)", "body": "#58 Some of the other couples could be just as happy in their own way. I AW. I just think Knightley and Emma get short shrift because of Elizabeth and Darcy. Thanks for understanding!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Kali", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (03:54)", "body": "I love Emma and Knightley. I AM Emma. And some day I plan to meet and marry Mr. Knightley. Yeah, I'm crazy...;)"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Donna", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (08:22)", "body": "I cannot be so swayed by such a person;-) You have not convinced me that you are Emma,crazy yes, Emma no.You are not CLUELESS."}, {"response": 64, "author": "JohanneD", "date": "Sun, Feb  2, 1997 (08:49)", "body": "I'm the happy owner of a wonderful little book (rather big though) titled : Patterns of Fashion, Englishwomen's dresses and their construction, c. 1660-1860 and c. 1860-1940, author Jane Arnold (another Jane, what a coincidence, ;) ) In it is various drawings and patterns of Englishwomen's dresses taken from original specimens with details showing their construction, for exemple : 1795-1903 a robe from the Victoria and Albert Museum in cream silk with a raised diamond pattern and decorated with tan-colored, looped-cord braid and satin 1795-1810 a riding habit (jacket and skirt with bodice) from the Salisbury Museum in pale blue worsted wollen cloth 1798-1805 a morning dress from the Salisbury Museum in white cotton with a small regular geometric pattern printed in dark purple 1806-1809 a frock from the Victoria and Albert Museum in white muslin emboided with stylised flowers in thick white cotton and silver thead 1800-1825 two chemisettes from Snowhill Manor - one white cambric chemisette with a treble mushroom-pleated frill at the neck; - one white lawn chemisette with a finely tucked front and a double mushroom-pleated frill at the neck 1818-1823 a pelisse from the Gloucester Museum in deep blue ribbed silk decorated with satin piping in a matching shade of blue, lined throughout with fine white silk, to be worn over a dress for outdoor wear So, anybody interested in receiving a copy of these wonderful and original patterns, do not hesitate to e-mail me."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Kali", "date": "Mon, Feb  3, 1997 (02:01)", "body": "Thanks, Donna...but you might be surprised at how clueless I really am...;)"}, {"response": 66, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Mon, Feb  3, 1997 (15:38)", "body": "Susan-Count me in. I too think Emma and KNightley were destined for marital bliss. They both know each other and come from the same background. Plus, he's madly in love with her-riding through the rain to see his beloved Emma, faultless despite her faults. However, I could make the same case for Darcy and Elizabeth and even Anne and Frederick. Dear JA-she gave us all hope for the perfect union. Kali-the dress sounds fabulous. I love that scene/dress. I found this coat, complete with a hood, in a vintage clothing shop that reminds me of the one GP wore in Frank Churchill gossip scene, with Miss Bates.(she's trying to get a word in). What did you think of Clueless, anyways. I was prepared to hate it, but ended up enjoying it!"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (01:57)", "body": "It was cute, but as I said before, it lost something in the translation for me."}, {"response": 68, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (14:20)", "body": "Like I said, I surprised myself and enjoyed it, but on its own merits. The slim(and I do mean slim) Emma parallels never made an impact on me. And Besides our dear Emma Woodhouse as a Valley Girl-The Horror! the Horror!"}, {"response": 69, "author": "Cheryl", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (14:39)", "body": "Cass...\"slim Emma parallels?\" That's one of the things I enjoyed most about the movie. When they were talking about the missing cool kid in class who spends time with parents at different times I said \"Frank Churchill!\" And Mr Martin as an \"undesirable\" skateboarder, etc. It was fun to find the parallels!"}, {"response": 70, "author": "Kali", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (21:22)", "body": "I had a problem with the Valley Girl thing, too. I thought Emma's situation was so much more than a teenage soap...she's older, and wiser, than that. Hard to believe, I know, but true..."}, {"response": 71, "author": "Susan", "date": "Tue, Feb  4, 1997 (22:01)", "body": "Parody, ladies; satire! I think JA would have appreciated the irony. I loved the Emma parallels and basically, Cher grew up over the course of the show just like Emma did. But of course my heart has and always will love Emma best."}, {"response": 72, "author": "cassandra", "date": "Wed, Feb  5, 1997 (13:18)", "body": "Cheryl-about the Emma parallels-The only one that really struck me was when the Josh character(and I will always refer to him as that) rescues Cher's Harrietesque friend at the dance. And of course Cher's teacher matchmaking and eventual realization that she's clueless-she loves Josh. Maybe I'm begining to lose my sense of humour or becoming too much of an Austen purist, but I never saw the film for once as Emma.(although I must admit I secretly enjoyed the spin on Frank Churchill-Christian, Cher's gay f iend) I agree with Kali-Emma was much more of a substantial, complex person than Cher and her growth throughout the novel and realization of her deep love for KNightley(the E/K union-one of the most heartfelt, endearing romances in all of literature) are much more realistic-a testament to our dear JA's talent.(I identify wih Emma, never Cher. Clueless often reminded me of an episode of Beverley Hills 90210) But, after saying all of that-I did enjoy the movie. But on its own merits. Great soundtrack and it reminded me more of those 80s films I grew up on-Pretty and Pink, Sixteen candles....."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Anne3", "date": "Wed, Feb  5, 1997 (14:07)", "body": "I don't think that Amy Heckerling ever intended for Clueless to be seen simply as a retelling of Emma. I'm sure that of the millions of teenagers who flocked to see the movie, maybe one percent of them, tops, had read the novel. I think she borrowed the plot because it's a good story. The Austen parallels were just a bonus to those of us who could recognize them."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Kali", "date": "Wed, Feb  5, 1997 (14:32)", "body": "Anne's right. That's why we're not duty-bound to even try to like it. ;) austen conference | Main Menu"}]}]}