{"conf": "bronte", "generated_at": "2026-04-26T08:00:02.954878Z", "threads": [{"num": 0, "subject": "", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 1, "subject": "introductions", "response_count": 55, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 10, 1997 (20:39)", "body": "Hi, I'm Amy 2 -- I live in Los Angeles, and work in the film industry. I've always loved the Brontes, and am a little tired of discussing PRIDE & PREJUDICE over on the Pemberley Board, so I thought I'd open up a new discussion here. Let me go on record as saying that I loved the 1983 Tim Dalton/Zelah Clarke adaptation of JANE EYRE, and thoroughly despised the recent William Hurt one. I have just recently reread JE, AGNES GREY, and WILDFELL HALL, as well as Mrs. Gaskell's LIFE, in case anyone would like to discuss. Welcome!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Thu, Jul 10, 1997 (23:49)", "body": "Amy, I am just getting into the Brontes. I have read Jane Eyre, albeit 6 years ago, so I don't know it as well as I do P&P (in terms of being able to quote from the book or the mini-series). I did read Wuthering Heights last year and thoroughly despised Heathcliff. By the time I had finished the book, I wanted to strangle him myself. I felt no sympathy for him whatsoever. He was so brutish and mean. I saw the JE adaptation with William Hurt and enjoyed it. But maybe that's because I haven't seen any other version. Can I ask why you hated it? Was he the problem or the girl who played JE? I am currently reading Tennant of Wildfell Hall after having viewed the series on the CBC about a month ago. All I can say is that I love this adaptation. It's very dark, and the camera angles can be dizzying at times but the acting is superb! I've developed quite a fancy for Toby Stephens (Gilbert Markham), he's quite irresistable!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (09:07)", "body": "Hi, I'm Terry and I'm helping Amy to set this up. Check out the new medieval conference which was just now created! This is a good thing, Amy."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (11:57)", "body": "LisaC. -- you mean, we DO exist outside of Pemberley?! I didn't like the Wm Hurt version of JE because I felt he was completely wrong for the part - I thought that T. Dalton much more perfectly captured the brooding, Byronic character of Rochester. Hurt was just too darned _nice_ -- he brought no dynamicism to the role. I also thought that the tall, willowy Charlotte Gainsborough was physically wrong for the \"small plain\" JE. Tell me, how was the recent adaptation of WILDFELL HALL? How did they deal with the extended flashback of Helen's life, when Gilbert is reading her lengthy missive about her life? I'm so glad that a friendly \"face\" has stopped by!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (12:51)", "body": "It was shown in three installments of one hour. When it begins, we see Helen fleeing her home with her son and settling into Wildfell. Everyone in the town is curious about the new tennant and the Markhams invite her over for a party where she quickly becomes disliked by some due to her steadfast convictions and harsh opinions. When she is offered a glass of wine, we see a flashback of a glass falling on the floor in front of Arthur, giving us a clue that they have experienced some bad times with liquor. ilbert becomes interested in her and starts spending more time with her to the chagrin of his sister, and the reverand. Rumors start spreading that her child Arthur has a resemblance to Mr. Lawrence and that Gilbert's attentions are another proof of her depravity. He believes none of this, thank God! He goes to visit her one night after the vicar's been there and declares his love for her and gives her a passionate kiss (sigh!) and she tells him to meet her on the moors where she'll explain everything. He overhears her talking to Lawrence and assumes what everyone else in the town does - that they are lovers. Next thing we see is Gilbert beating Lawrence and Helen running out of the house to stop them. She informs him then that Lawrence is her brother. This is where I am in the book, I haven't read Helen's story yet. In part 2, Helen gives Gilbert a diary which explains her situation. This is told in flashback. We see her as a young girl infatuated with Huntington, their marriage, which was good up until she becomes pregnant. We see her depressed state as Arthur leaves her for long periods of time and when he returns, after she's given birth, he comes back with a party of friends and basically has affairs literaly under her nose. Rupert Graves is absolutely chilling. He's mean, cold, and demanding. We see him throw He en on the floor and almost choke her to death. We also see his negative influence on little Arthur, forcing him to drink wine, shoot birds - \"teach him to become a man of the world\". I have to confess, that I don't watch part 2 that much, it depresses me quite a bit so I might be fuzzy on this. At the end, we return to the present, where little Arthur is being kidnapped and Helen is forced to return to her husband. Part 3, Gilbert learns from Lawrence that Helen is gone, and he travels by coach to see her, all the while still reading her diary. We learn that she couldn't handle her husband's conduct anymore and that she quitted her residence, dressed herself in widow's weeds, and returned to the place where she grew up. Gilbert sees her, and is quite shocked at the place she left, it's quite grand, almost like Pemberley. He tells her that he still loves her and that \"happiness is not a sin\". She tells him that she m st do what is morally right, and stay with her dying husband. Thank heavens he finally dies! She returns back to Wildfell, sees a wedding taking place and is crushed. So was I until, we learned that Eliza had married Richard Wilson instead! Gilbert runs to see her on the moors, and proposes to her. They kiss. The End!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (13:02)", "body": "Amy, I just wanted to add that I think board is great. I love Pemberley, but I think P&P has been talked to death. It's still my favorite book however, and I am totally infatuated with Mr. Darcy, but I have come to admire Gilbert Markham as well, especially after having watched Toby Stephens! I know nothing about the Brontes' life but it seems to me that it was ridden with sadness, for all of their books seem to be quite dark, not like Jane Auten's light and pleasing tone."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Pinn", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (17:11)", "body": "I thought it ironic, and a little distracting that the ending of the TV version of Tennant inverted the books ending. In the book, of course, it is Gilbert that seeks out Helen, sees the Wedding, and starts to turn back when he sees Helen's mansion (curiousl male difference to that of lizzie in P&P), and realises their hugh class differences."}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (17:22)", "body": "LisaC: Thanks for the positive response! I dearly love P&P as well, but I just can't talk about it or the adaptation any more. With the Brontes, we have 6 new novels to discuss: JE, Villete, The Professor, WH, Agnes Grey, and Wildfell Hall, as well as three more fascinating authors!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "34", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "I like the Timothy Dalton version so much I bought it. So far it is the only adaptation that really gets the novel IMHO. I have yet to see the new A + E one. What really strikes me about this book is how incredibly passionate it is, without having an incident of sex."}, {"response": 10, "author": "bronte", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "Great to have a Bronte Board! I have been a fan of their work or years. I have spent the last year working on the novels and the bios.....and even some other commentaries. I leave in about 3 weeks for a class at Oxford on the Brontes then to Haworth -- A life time dream come true. I know that one week will not be enough discussion for me tho! Did anyone know that a rather good musical of Jane Eyre is to open on Broadway in the spring? It opened here (Kansas) in experimental theater, is in Montreal at the moment and slated to open in MY in the spring......Not so bad, but I wonder what Charlotte and Emily must think of things like musicals. LisaQ"}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (20:57)", "body": "LisaQ -- glad to have you here! A musical of Jane Eyre? Oh brother -- my friend reports that a musical on Richard Lionheart is in the works in Greence as well. I suppose if you can do LES MIZ & TITANIC, then anything goes... I would dearly like to own the T. Dalton version of JE myself -- I see that amazon.com has it for $29.95, so next payday, that's where you'll find me. Again, welcome! Please use your Bronte knowledge to open as many new topics as you want on this Board. Just hit the button CREATE NEW TOPIC. Amy 2"}, {"response": 12, "author": "lisaC", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (21:34)", "body": "LisaQ are you sure the JE is playing in Montreal now? I live there and have not heard of it. If it's playing in my neck of the woods I would gladly go see it. I know that the musical originated in Toronto and is heading to Broadway sometime soon. The only musical we had here was one based on Joan of Arc in French and in English."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Maria", "date": "Sat, Jul 12, 1997 (13:58)", "body": "Just a little intro to express my enthusiasm for this discussion group, and to explain that mine main interest is Anne, with a major sidelight on Mr. Bronte. Maria"}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Jul 12, 1997 (22:28)", "body": "Welcome Maria! Are you a Bronte listserver member? Please feel free to open a topic re: Anne -- I'm quite fascinated by her as well. I think there's much more to her than is popularly supposed -- it seems that someone with \"a nunlike veil\" could not have written WILDFELL HALL."}, {"response": 15, "author": "supermick", "date": "Tue, Jul 15, 1997 (06:06)", "body": ""}, {"response": 16, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Jul 15, 1997 (15:48)", "body": "Hi, I\ufffdm Luisa, 17-year-old, from Portugal and I\ufffdm a big fan of Charlotte Bronte\ufffds. Specially Jane Eyre which is probably my favourite novel. I like Jane Austen, but, like Amy, I\ufffdm a bit tired of hearing about her, so I\ufffdve decided to come here and have a chat. ;-) I`ve read Jane Eyre (twice, but I read the Rochester parts-the dialogues-almost every week), The Tenant of Wildfell Hall, Villette (another wonderful book) and I want to read Shirley and Agnes Grey soon. Very soon! Anyway, I\ufffdm a romantic soul and the Bronte style appeals to me due to its poetry, even though I sometimes have trouble digesting the Gothic elements... Anyway, HELLO! :)"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Jul 15, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "Hi, I\ufffdm Luisa, 17-year-old, from Portugal and I\ufffdm mostly a big fan of Charlotte Bronte\ufffds. Specially Jane Eyre which is probably my favourite novel. I like Jane Austen, but, like Amy, I\ufffdm a bit tired of hearing about her, so I\ufffdve decided to come here and have a chat. ;-) I`ve read Jane Eyre (twice, but I read the Rochester parts-the dialogues-almost every week), The Tenant of Wildfell Hall, Villette (another wonderful book) and I want to read Shirley and Agnes Grey soon. Very soon! Anyway, I\ufffdm a romantic s ul and the Bronte style appeals to me due to its poetry, even though I sometimes have trouble digesting the Gothic elements... Anyway, HELLO! :)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Jul 15, 1997 (15:50)", "body": "Oops....sorry."}, {"response": 19, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Tue, Jul 15, 1997 (16:21)", "body": "Greetings and salutations, Amy2! (P.S. Thank you for the video you mailed me recently!)While my \"little grey cells\" need the continued stimulus of Austenian irony, my \"tormented soul\" has long craved the passional mysticism of the Brontes on the Net...so your site here is most welcome! If you have not yet read the following novel, I'll get it for you, as it contains a formidable similarity to the Brontean style plus some audacious plot twisting of its own. (the following is from Amazon.com) Heathcliff : The Return to Wuthering Heights by Lin Haire-Sargeant Reprint Edition Mass Market Paperback, 292 pages Published by Pocket Books Publication date: October 1, 1993 Dimensions (in inches): 6.70 x 4.15 x .84 ISBN: 0671777017 List: $5.99 ~ Our Price: $4.79 ~ You Save: $1.20 (20%) Availability: This item usually ships within 2-3 days. Reviews and Commentary for Heathcliff : The Return to Wuthering Heights Synopsis: Heathcliff and Cathy are two of the world's most unforgettable lovers--immortalized in Emily Bronte's beloved novel Wuthering Heights. Now, in a style faithful to Bronte's original, Haire-Sargeant chronicles Heathcliff's adventures during his three-year absence from Wuthering Heights."}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jul 15, 1997 (20:54)", "body": "France, that sounds incredibly intriguing! No, I do not have that book. I'm glad that you & Luisa are able to appreciate the Bronte's unabashed romanticism along with Miss Austen's restraint!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Sun, Jul 27, 1997 (14:34)", "body": "Hi gang! Just wanted to let you all know that the Jane Eyre version with George C Scott is finally released I THINK it is avaliable through Critic Choice 800-544-9852. I have not tried to order it yet, so I say again I THINK!!:-) The Timothy Dalton version is on the shelves at Suncoast Video for about 29.95. I have to wait to purchase either (:-(boo-hoo) due to my husbands perception of a facination with another film.!!Plus as a mom, I usually purchase school supplies and shoes this time of year!! That will ruin any budget!! Take care all"}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Jul 27, 1997 (22:42)", "body": "Thanks for the tip, Anne! Do you know if WUTHERING HEIGHTS with Ralph Fienne is available on video? Thanks."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "oops. I never cameback and checked this board. I'll ask tonight."}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (17:19)", "body": "Thanks Anne! I am dying to know! I couldn't find it on a recent trip to the video store."}, {"response": 25, "author": "niteslyr", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (08:20)", "body": "Hello! You can call me Niteslyr. I'm a high-school student that is studying British literature. I happened to have stumbled on this page after reading Wuthering Heights and I wanted a stronger philosophical, historical, and social background on what the story is based. I figure that if I can understand what was going on back then, I probably could enjoy the story better! (It was pretty good by itself) I'm kind of afraid here because there are a lot of Austenites around, and persoanlly, I really didn't like Pride and Prejudice. I thought the characters were weak... except for Mr. Collins and Mr. Bennet, they were entertaining. Anyway, enough of my opnions for now. So far, this board is pretty cool, and I am finding myself absorbing some good information. Thanks and see ya around! PS The recent film adaption of Jane Eyre was terrible, is there any other one?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (13:19)", "body": "Welcome, Nitesklyr! Don't be afraid of the Austenites -- they won't bite! I think there is room in the big world of literature for everyone. As far as a better adaptation of JE, you betcha. Check out the '83 BBC production with Timothy Dalton and Zelah Clarke. Much, much better, IMHO..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Areia", "date": "Thu, Jan 15, 1998 (23:15)", "body": "Greetings. I wonder if I'm somewhat of a fool for introducing myself here, because I'm a \"newbie\" in every sense of the word. How so? Well, let me put it this way: I've merely read Jane Eyre and I'm halfway through Wuthering Heights. So what right do I have to be on a Bronte conference, huh? I know practically nothing about them. However, I found this conference after doing a web search on someone who's hard to find: Patrick Branwell Bronte. Yes, /he/ is my main interest here, not the glorious sisters (though they are glorious!). I found about him through them, of course, and for some strange reason, he utterly fascinates me. I've been perusing the topic on him, and I have learned much. Still, he seems almost like a ghost to me: there's so much I want to learn about him, but I have no idea where to turn. Any suggestions? For one t ing, does anyone know if a portrait of him exists? I know this is a rather odd reason to join a Bronte conference...but y'know when you find something, quite by chance, and it ignites a spark of passion in you? That's what Branwell Bronte did to me. Go figure. :) Well, my apologies, and I hope to hear from *somebody*."}, {"response": 28, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (11:58)", "body": "Welcome, Areia! Everyone is welcome here, from experts to \"newbies.\" This is what I would suggest: the most comprehensive portrait of Patrick I've read is in Juliet Barker's massive tome THE BRONTES. I think you will find out everything you want to do know about Patrick & more from her exhaustive account!!! There are also books of his own writings, which, quite frankly, are quite long-winded and not particularly good, but if you want to see where the Brontes' literary heritage came from, this is the p ace. THE MAID OF KILLKARNIE (sp?) is, I believe, the longest of these. Good luck!!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Tue, Jan 20, 1998 (19:36)", "body": "Hi, Areia. I'm a big Bronte enthusiast, but I also happened on the conference because I suddenly got interested in why brother Branwell flopped so bad. There's a lot of stuff in the Branwell Bronte topic that you might be interested in. I haven't drawn any conclusions yet, but am plowing my way through Barker's encyclopedic life of the Bronte family for more information. I think the thing that gets me about Branwell is that he came from the same ferment of creative activity as his sisters, and was as rolific as they for most of his life. It's just that in the two or so years that they were writing Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights and Tenant of Wildfell Hall, he as drunk. Oops! Those two years proved to be the last two on earth for three of the four siblings. It's so sad. I think you're going to love the Bronte novels. They're all so wonderful -- Anne's, too. Wuthering Heights is like an act of nature and, If you're at all prone to carrying a torch, Villette is really a pip."}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (14:03)", "body": "And the great JANE EYRE & AGNES GREY too! What a remarkable family to give us so many immortal novels! One thought about Branwell -- as the only boy, he may have been overindulged by his father, aunt, & sisters -- there was always an assumption in the family that he would be a great success, even though he didn't particulary have a lot of talent (in painting). He also tended to be Byronic, weak, and vain, all of which lead to his downfall. I'm inclined to think that Anne & Charlotte, in particular, had more of a core of steel which allowed them to deal with their lot (governessing) & continue literary work as well. Just a personal opinion. . ."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Areia", "date": "Mon, Jan 26, 1998 (23:02)", "body": "Hello again, to both Amy and Michael, Thanks for the enthusiastic responses! I return from my computer tonight after a sudden rash desire to go seek out materials that included Branwell, partially inspired by Amy's suggestion to check out the Barker book. It is quite a tome, isn't it? After flipping through it, however, I came across another book: _Dark Quartet: The Story of the Brontes_, by Lynne Reid Banks. Have either of you-- or anyone else for that matter-- heard of/read this book? It's not a new book, so it may be out of print or someth ng, but it is a fictional account of the Bronte's history. Quite interesting, and it seems like it will be a good introduction to them. I'd like to know your opinions on this book. Oh yes...and _Wuthering Heights_. I would say it's marvelous, but that wouldn't do it justice. Gettin' into the swing o' things, Areia P.S. Still looking for a good pic of Branwell. I've seen a few little sketches, but is there anything more?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jan 28, 1998 (20:10)", "body": "I think most of the sketches we have of Branwell are his own. Yes, I saw that DARK QUARTET book up at the Bronte parsonage -- I think it's an older bio. The Barker really is a huge tome, but if you're interested in Branwell, I think it's the ultimate source. Good luck!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Heulwen", "date": "Sat, Sep 19, 1998 (15:25)", "body": "Hi I just found this board through pemberley. I'm 16 and I've loved the Bronte's books ever since the first time I've read them, Emily Bronte's in particular. Recently I picked up a book of poetry by the Bronte's that i absolutely had to buy as it not only included poetry by Charlotte, Emily and Anne, but also some pieces by Patrick Branwell. (Not that I wouldn't have bought it anyway, I just needed to justify it) My favourite book is Wuthering Heights. I can't think of much else to say. I have a book of unifinished novels by Charlotte Bronte, which left me wanting to know what happened to Emma."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Agneta", "date": "Sun, Sep 20, 1998 (15:43)", "body": "Dear friends I just surfed in from Pemberley, and I feel there are kindred spirits here. I will be back soon. Love AnnaG"}, {"response": 35, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (04:21)", "body": "I wish somebody would write a new Bront\ufffd biography so we'd have something to discuss again!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "alic", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (19:53)", "body": "I am writing a research paper on Anne Bronte and was wondering if any of you have read The Scribner Comparsion to the Brontes by Barbara and Gareth Lloyd Evans. If so, did you find that it had useful information about Anne and her works. I have read many other books about Anne and her sisters and the information seems to vary depending on the author, especially the information about her childhood. If any of you have suggestions on a book with good information on Anne I would appreciate your help. Thank you."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Lenzi", "date": "Mon, Dec 13, 1999 (20:19)", "body": "Hello...I've been looking for something like this and have only come across a discussion page which was populated by a massive group of high schoolers looking for help because they hadn't read Jane Eyre for school. Now, after my initial glee in finding this conference, I am wondering how active this site is. It appears there have been no entries for quite a while. I hope it is merely a temporary lull... I am very enthusiastic about the Brontes and have read all I could get my hands on. Until recently I had concentrated on the works of C.& E. and their bios but I have ordered Anne's novels and I'm excited about discovering something of the more forgotten sister. Has anyone read \"A Chainless Soul\" by Katherine Frank? I'm in the middle of it. She proposes that Emily was anorexic. Although there is a considerable amount of conjecture throughout the book, I felt that she might have something there. I think if it is a truth, it was not the kind of self mutilation arising from low self esteem which plag es some of our young women in this day, but probably sprang from her passionate need for control, esp. when she was placed in situations in which she was away from home, away from her usual liberty. Does anyone have thoughts on this? I'm so glad I found you all!"}, {"response": 38, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Dec 14, 1999 (21:34)", "body": "You're right Lenzi, we're getting ready for a second coming and you've come along just in time. I'm going to make our main discussion site austen.com instead of spring.net, I plan to phase this change in over the next year. And we want to be a place for folks to come and talk about great literature and the media that has sprung from this great body of work. You may want to introduce yourself in the porch conference and the drool conference (strange as it may seem, it would be a good place to talk up this conference). Invite others you know who love Jane Austen, I would like nothing more to see a resurgence here."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Plaridel", "date": "Sat, May  5, 2001 (18:10)", "body": "Glad to find this site. I'm also a Bronte fan. I hope to visit Haworth in June of this year."}, {"response": 40, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, May  6, 2001 (13:09)", "body": "Glad you're here!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "annemullinger", "date": "Sun, Jul  8, 2001 (21:28)", "body": "Hello. Just spent an hour or so browsing this site & as a newly revived Bronte fan I've found it fascinating. Recently read Barker's biography, which set me off reading all of Charlotte's novels. Villette's now my favourite, although I've known and loved Jane Eyre all my life. Reading Mrs Gaskell's biog now and it's very interesting, esp as a contrast to Barker's objective academic account. Not sure if its very healthy to be as interested in long dead literary family who lived such private restricted lives, unlike my own, and yet what a story their lives were! I find it very hard not to keep boring friends & family with my recently acquired knowledge too eg; A couple of evenings ago, on a boat party travelling East down the Thames in London, I couldn't help thinking of Charlotte's trips to Brussels which started in a similar way (experiences she vividly recalled in Villette). My companions, being non-addicts, smiled indulgently as I rambled on about this, so, as I send these thoughts out into the Net it's i the hope that some more kindred spirits read them and maybe even reply to a nervous newcomer."}, {"response": 42, "author": "tess", "date": "Wed, Jul 11, 2001 (14:13)", "body": "Hi! I have been looking around, and read some of the posts here for a while. I didn`t think there had been anyone writing here for quite a while...glad to see I was wrong! I to am a bronte fan, and my favourite book has to be Villette, although Jane Eyre comes right behind:) The end of Villette is wonderful, but I was terrified when I first read it, since it came as a total chock! I have read Barker`s \"Bronte -a life in letters\", and I loved it! It was great learning of the author and novels in Charlottes own words! Have you read \"A passionate life\" by Lyndall Gordon? I think it\ufffds a wonderful Charlotte-biography. I\ufffdm very glad I found this place!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jul 12, 2001 (02:59)", "body": "Welcome tess, glad you are checking in."}, {"response": 44, "author": "rowho", "date": "Thu, Jul 18, 2002 (17:57)", "body": "Hi, This is my first time to do this so please excuse any ignorance. I am desperately searching for a movie that I saw a small bit of on the Classic Movie Channel about the Bronte sisters. It was biograpical and was probably made in the mid to late 40's. Olivia DeHaviland played Charlotte. I just absolutly hated that I had to miss this movie and have not been able to find it or even get an accurate title I guess. I thought it was named Beloved. But I've searched everywhere under that title and have not been able to find it. If you have any suggestions I will gladly take them. I love P&P, JE, WH so much that it seems every movie I've seen about them is good. I have my favorites of course but I just love all of them! Any help you can give me will be greatly appreciated."}, {"response": 45, "author": "lafn", "date": "Thu, Jul 18, 2002 (18:16)", "body": "(Rowena)..about the Bronte sisters. It was biograpical and was probably made in the mid to late 40's. Olivia DeHaviland played Charlotte.... and have not been able to find it or even get an accurate title I guess. I thought it was named Beloved. But I've searched everywhere under that title and have not been able to find it. If you have any suggestions I will gladly take them. DEVOTION 1946 http://us.imdb.com/Title?0038474"}, {"response": 46, "author": "tell", "date": "Sat, Feb 28, 2004 (17:53)", "body": "First time on this site and having the internet at home, only read a few comments. Like to agree with amy 2 that the William Hurt adaptation of Jane Eyre was horrible, I think it captured nothing of the atmosphere of the experiences in the novel, I'm sure Charlotte would have agreed. However have to agree that I think that the Timothy Dalton version was nearer to the romance and honesty of characters as book. (nothing to do with it being the lovely Timothy Dalton of course)."}, {"response": 47, "author": "tell", "date": "Sat, Feb 28, 2004 (17:55)", "body": "Evelyn are you referring to the Orson Wells version of Jane Eyre?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Ravey", "date": "Sun, Jul  4, 2004 (10:37)", "body": "Hey all, I'm Ravey and I've just finished re-reading Wuthering heights. I hadn't read it since i was a kid, and I definitely enjoyed it a lot more as an adult. I've also read Jane Eyre a few times...but I haven't read anything else by the Bronte sisters...and I don't know a whole lot about them. I am interested in learning though, particularly in Emily, since she always seemed the more interesting to me (probably because I liked her book the best) And I confess to being a complete Heathcliff fan..."}, {"response": 49, "author": "saranha77", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 2004 (22:24)", "body": "Hey. I'm Sarah and I actually got into the Brontes because I ended up seeing the muscial version of Jane Eyre. I was happy to discover that the book was five million times better. I knew pretty much nothing about the sisters, so once I'd read JE, I found the next most famous, Wuthering Heights, which I am in the process of rereading. So Emily kinda won me over and WH is my current favorite, but I really need to read Anne's stuff."}, {"response": 50, "author": "cfadm", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 2004 (23:54)", "body": "Welcome, I hope this starts a trend!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Castalia", "date": "Wed, Nov  2, 2005 (01:27)", "body": "Good evening...or, I suppose, morning by now, to everyone who may be lurking here. It seems to be mostly dormant at this point, but this conference could do with a bit of revival. I shall try to do my small part to \"Wake [this board] whose spirit lingers, Sleeping silently and still,\" while punning badly all the way. So hello, and thank you for having me!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "Castalia", "date": "Wed, Nov  2, 2005 (01:28)", "body": "Oh, and sorry for being a pretentious idiot about it."}, {"response": 53, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Nov  2, 2005 (09:07)", "body": "A bit of revival, how about bypass surgery? Thanks for being so interested, can we coronate you as Queen of Bronte? Seriously, this conference needs a host like Drool has with Karen. Are you up to this? I don't mean to be flippant!"}, {"response": 54, "author": "etorb", "date": "Mon, Mar 27, 2006 (19:49)", "body": "It looks like this conference is picking up a bit!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Mar 28, 2006 (08:27)", "body": "Yeah, we just need a few die hard Bronte fans to migrate back. It was hopping once upon a time. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 11, "subject": "Pictures, anyone?", "response_count": 43, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "panache", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (00:44)", "body": "Here's a nice one for starters: http://www.eagle.co.uk/Bronte/haworth1.gif"}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (09:01)", "body": "I would like to run a picture and a little story on the Spring's main page about the Bronte conference if this is ok with everyone. Amy, what say? Can you write up a little text piece for me. What a nice picture (above)."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (10:12)", "body": "Lovely picture...reminds me of the times when I was travelling in the Cotswolds and dreaming....sigh of happiness."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (11:45)", "body": "Terry, I just sent you the blurb via e-mail. Cecily -- I have a ton o' Bronte pictures I'd love to post to this board. But I'm HTML-challenged, and don't know how. Would you step me through the process? Thanks, amy"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (12:40)", "body": "Got the blurb and posted it on http://wwww.spring.com Now, can someone come up with a cool picture to go with it?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (16:45)", "body": "I can! I've got the famous portrait of Charlotte, Emily, & Anne which Branwell painted. Terry -- what's the best way to get this to you? As an e-mail enclosure? (it's a PICT). Thanks!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "panache", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (23:22)", "body": "Dear Amy2- Asking me for help is like asking a toddler to cook dinner! :) Here's the best I can do: 1) direct scanning is beyond me at this time, but if you have photos at home you want to get on the web, I assume a college library or campus lab that has both a scanner and internet access (or an individual with more moxie and equipment than I) can get them online for you; 2) if they're already on the web, (as above and the next one below), all I do when at their site is right-click on the desired photo, which br ngs up a small window w/commands from which I select & click on Save Location (at least, my Windows95 plus Netscape does this), the window disappears, and then I go Back to your Bronte board at Spring, get to the next empty posting box like this one here, and under Edit click on Paste. Then I put around the http address my Paste job put in this box (meaning, put the address between the quotation marks where I left the empty space). That should do it; the only reason I also put the ttp address (w/out the carats, etc., surrounding) again is that I like to show the source of my photo link, too. Clear as mud, right? Sorry... Ok, here's another page link to admire- http://www.erols.com/novelexp/"}, {"response": 8, "author": "panache", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (23:36)", "body": "hmmm, no admiration for that memo example failure. Evidently I can't write the code here or it displays a broken graphic symbol instead. I'll say it the long way instead: Type the left-pointing carat key first,then the abbreviation for image source (which is IMG SRC,(no commas anywhere, OK?), then opening quotation marks, then the complete http address you copied/pasted, then closing quot. marks, then the carat symbol that faces the other way. (Golly, I hope that does it) P.S. some places have pix t at just don't seem to be paste-able, tho, as the one above, so even more reason to give the http address twice so viewer can head there herself. [that was horribly longwinded; just ask Terry next time!)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "Arrghhhh! You lost me. Do you know how to post pictures that aren't on the Web? I've got quite a few PICTS I've collected from here & there. Terry, can you help us cyberkids? Thanks!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (09:09)", "body": "You can convert it to a gif or jpeg with Lview Pro which you can get off of Forrest's site, http://www.stroud.com or in our apps conference. Or just put it in your directory on the Spring and let me know where it is. Or attach it to an email. Or send it by carrier pigeon. However, you want to zap it to me."}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (11:37)", "body": "Thanks Terry! I will e-mail you a few which it would be great to post to this topic."}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 24, 1997 (11:30)", "body": "Terry -- I e-mailed you four JPEGS to post to this topic (yesterday). Did you receive them? Thanks!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 24, 1997 (12:01)", "body": "Just wanted to mention that we are STARS! Check out: http://www.spring.com/ for a big blurborama on this site, along with the famous portrait of the three sisters. Thanks Terry, for letting the world know that we are here!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jul 24, 1997 (13:07)", "body": "Sure, we'll run it there for a bit. And post any new news if it comes up, we porbably should put something up for 'medieval' after a while."}, {"response": 15, "author": "breezin", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "Try this for a Dalton moment of drool... http://www.timothydalton.com/mjane.jpg"}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (00:31)", "body": "Thanks Lola! That is a heart-stopper! In fact, it's on my desktop as we speak!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "breezin", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (00:33)", "body": "And then there's... http://www.timothydalton.com/original/bw2.jpg"}, {"response": 18, "author": "breezin", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (00:34)", "body": "Gotta run to put my child to sleep, but hope these photos give YOU sweet dreams, too, Amy2. Back tomorrow..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (11:35)", "body": "Lola, you're killin' me here! It's going to be hard to picture anyone else as Rochester -- even the beloved Mr. Hinds. But I think we can make that leap - don't you?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "breezin", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (13:00)", "body": "I shall certainly do my utmost, though Foxy-faced TD is soooooo compelling, is he not? BTW, he was a terrific Heathcliff in his youth on film, too. Have you seen it? Very \"wild\" looking (and much less vicious than RF's rendering). Pardon me while I go back into a reverie on the above photos ;-)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (14:55)", "body": "Lola, if you come back to us from the ether, I -did- see WH with Dalton -- liked him very much, but still have to confess that the young Olivier is my fave in this role. Even though the classic '39 Goldwyn film concentrated solely on the Heathcliff/Cathy romance, and forgot about the rest of the book. Odd to think that Olivier & Merle Oberon HATED each other during the making of this film. They certainly faked it effectively on-camera!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jul 31, 1997 (09:07)", "body": "Check out the great retouch job Doug Larue did on the Bronte sisters on the Spring's main page"}, {"response": 23, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jul 31, 1997 (10:58)", "body": "Can I get a picture of Amy to superimpose in the empty place in the Bronte sisters picture? What say Amy?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 31, 1997 (11:46)", "body": "HA!!! I don't think I deserve to be in such hallowed company. Actually, Branwell, who painted the picture, put HIMSELF in the middle , then painted himself out & replaced it with a pillar. Terry, would a Polaroid do, or do you need some kind of digital picture?"}, {"response": 25, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (10:50)", "body": "A digital picture would be the best, but you could mail me a polaroid and I could scan it if you don't have these facilities (Spring, Rt 2 Box 56R, Cedar Creek TX 78612). Thanks Amy. This will be fun!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (11:33)", "body": "I do have a VERY RECENT Polaroid (of me after getting my hair straightened, no less!) Actually, we DO have scanning facilities here, so I can send it as a JPEG. Stay tuned!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (17:36)", "body": "Oh man.....those pictures, Lola...what can I say? He\ufffds one of the handsomest \"devils\" I\ufffdve ever seen! Beautiful, without being a wimp. Just perfect. Talk about sweet dreams! ;-)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (18:15)", "body": "Luisa, SURELY you must be referring to our own Tim Dalton? Was he beautiful in JE, or what? This is not an \"ugly\" Rochester!!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "panache", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (22:55)", "body": "Nor at all ugly in the production of FLORENCE NIGHTINGALE!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "panache", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (22:58)", "body": "Try this- http://www.timothydalton.com/original/florence.jpg"}, {"response": 31, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (23:23)", "body": "Cecily, that IS nice! Is this a new production? Our boy looks so good, I don't care if he -plays- Florence Nightengale!!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Sat, Aug  2, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "Amy2: 1985 - \"Florence Nightingale\" - TV movie - [Dalton played] Richard Milnes - Supporting role -not avaiable on video On another point: I teach sophomore girls who will be discussing their summer novels, 1984 and Wuthering Heights , in September with me. I am directing them to some online links on Bronte (and later, Austen)for research, but I am also wondering if you would permit them to sign up at Spring and join this conference (temporarily, anyway) if I started a topic thread (or 2) on WH for them and others wishing to join in. As a rule my classes are well-behaved, but I would not tell them about this site i the idea worries you at all, Amy. We're talking maybe 40-50 girls in all, assuming I can get them all e-mail addresses at hotmail.com and over their fear of posting. :) P.S. Don't be afraid to say no to me on this!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (19:36)", "body": "France, by all means, have them visit! The more the merrier, I say!! Please set up as many topics as you want for WH - that would be great. I'd love to see more literary discussions on this board. Is it OK if the rest of us occasionally join in?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Aug  4, 1997 (11:53)", "body": "Do it! And join in please. Welcome."}, {"response": 35, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Mon, Aug  4, 1997 (21:31)", "body": "Why, thank you to both Amy2 and Terry! Of course, having said all this, I'll need to set it all up with the students (netiquette, how-to-post, etc., but I think they'll enjoy it once they get the idea. I'll also email you more complete info when the \"visit\" is imminent.)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug  4, 1997 (23:52)", "body": "Great! I think this will be a lot of fun, for them & for us!!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "arteest", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (16:04)", "body": "A test."}, {"response": 38, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (19:24)", "body": "Successful!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "arteest", "date": "Sun, Oct 26, 1997 (11:16)", "body": "Maybe this one. (Pardon me while I experiment.)"}, {"response": 40, "author": "arteest", "date": "Sun, Oct 26, 1997 (11:26)", "body": "That's more what I had in mind! I know a lot of us were disappointed in the A&E Jane, but this is still a nic picture, I think. Amy2, did you get the graphic I emailed you on Friday? Maybe I'll post it here, now that I know how. I did this in Photoshop the other day (I'm a graphic artist, by the way.)"}, {"response": 41, "author": "arteest", "date": "Sun, Oct 26, 1997 (11:31)", "body": "Forgot the credit for the top picture (typo there: NICE, not \"nic\"!.) It's from a \"newly-hatched\" Ciaran Hinds page: > Thank you."}, {"response": 42, "author": "arteest", "date": "Sun, Oct 26, 1997 (11:42)", "body": "The Hinds page address is: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/5516/ciaran.html Thank you, \"AneWntwrth\"!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Oct 26, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "Julie: That's a great graphic! I work in a graphic design place that mainly does film & tv work... No, I didn't get an e-mail on Friday. Why don't you try to send it again to: amy@greenheart.com **Also: Can you tell me the secret to posting JPEGs to this Board which are -not- located elsewhere on the Web? Thanks! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 12, "subject": "How Did Charlotte Die?", "response_count": 13, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug  6, 1997 (14:14)", "body": "I came across the most credible theory yet in Lyndall Gordon's CHARLOTTE BRONTE, A PASSIONATE LIFE. Gordon says that everyone so far has overlooked the obvious -- that Tabby, the aged servant at the Parsonage, came down with a fatal infection of the digestive tract. She died February, 1855; Charlotte died March, 1855. Charlotte didn't die of her pregnancy -- the cause of death was her unremitting vomitting, & coughing up blood. Gordon thinks that Tabby may have caught typhoid from Haworth's apallingly unsanitary conditions (average life expectancy was 25!!) & gave it to Charlotte. This sounds the most reasonable to me, unless Charlotte really had been infectd with consumption for some years - she -was- always in poor health. But her complaint wasn't coughing -- it was more digestive. What do you think?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "WilkinSon", "date": "Sat, Nov 15, 1997 (13:26)", "body": "It seems to me that a combination of all three diseases is the most likely cause. She was probably infected with TB (both her sisters had died of it)and the Parsonage isn't the largest of houses. The pregnancy further depressed her immune system. The gastric infection finished her off. I doubt it was typhoid,if that's what she had that's what Ingham the attending doctor would have written on the death certificate. I'll research this further though,"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (12:18)", "body": "Thanks Andrew! There have been so many misconceptions over the years about Charlotte dying of \"hysterical rejection of the fetus\" etc. I'm sure you're right about her being a T.B. carrier -- she was never in the best of health, & lived in such close proximity to her sisters (didn't she & Anne share a bed almost until the last?)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Mick1", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (05:53)", "body": "I recently had a discussion on this subject with Kathryn White (curator at the Bronte Parsonage Museum). Here is what she told me: the recorded cause of death was 'Phthisis', which is a general, muscle wasting disease; however, from Charlotte's symptoms, medical experts now firmly believe that the cause was a condition known as 'Hyperemesis Gravidarum' which, in effect, is dehydration caused by excessive vomiting (can't keep any fluids down). Apparently, this occasionally happens to pregnant women, and ca certainly be life threatening if not treated, however, it is not generally regarded as serious today as treatment is quite simple - the patient is placed on a drip. What a shame they didn't have drips in those days! (someone said they did - Branwell! :-) ). Mick."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Mick1", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (06:04)", "body": "The 'cropped' line should read ' . . and can certainly be life threatening . . '. Don't know why this conference system always messes-up my text - it appears perfect in the 'message box' before I send it! Mick."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Mick1", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (06:06)", "body": "I recently had a discussion on this subject with Kathryn White (curator at the Bronte Parsonage Museum). Here is what she told me: the recorded cause of death was 'Phthisis', which is a general, muscle wasting disease; however, from Charlotte's symptoms, medical experts now firmly believe that the cause was a condition known as 'Hyperemesis Gravidarum' which, in effect, is dehydration caused by excessive vomiting (can't keep any fluids down). Apparently, this occasionally happens to pregnant women, and ca certainly be life threatening if not treated, however, it is not generally regarded as serious today as treatment is quite simple - the patient is placed on a drip. What a shame they didn't have drips in those days! (someone said they did - Branwell! :-) ). Mick."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (16:07)", "body": "Mick: The Yapp software on the Spring does have the unfortunate tendency to lose a letter here or there, so it's not you. Kathryn White is absolutely correct about the real reason for Charlotte's death -- whether this constant vomiting was caused by psychological factors or not is something we'll never know. Yes, it's a shame the Brontes didn't live in a time where medicine was more advanced. We could have held onto Anne and Emily far longer and possibly had many more wonderful novels. . ."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (18:49)", "body": "There's something so haunting about your phrase \"we could have held onto Anne and Emily far longer...\". They elude us, flying just beyond our grasp. Especially Emily. If only they could have been anchored to the earth, just a little longer. It's like the small sharp pang of sorrow one gets when reading Emily's diary paper speculations about where the siblings would all be in fifty years' time. Dead and long in your graves, Emily..."}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (16:27)", "body": "Yes, that is very chilling, isn't it? All those hopes and such short lives. I wish Anne could have lived to get married & have children, which she obviously wanted very much based on her writings. And who knows where Emily could have gone after Wuthering Heights? It is just so sad. I do get a sense about Charlotte, though, that she had essentially finished her career by the time of her marriage. Writing wasn't making her happy (she was extremely miserable while writing VILLETTE) and she had turned o t four books to Anne's two & Emily's one. I understand that her last fragment, EMMA, shows tremendous promise, so perhaps this could have evolved into another great work. We'll never know."}, {"response": 10, "author": "jainabell", "date": "Mon, Apr  9, 2001 (00:27)", "body": "If Charlotte had a negative blood type, (o-,a-,b-,ab-) and her husband had a positive blood type, it could cause complications in the pregnancy, mostly for the fetus. but with Charlotte's health compromised in so many ways already, it certainly wouldn't help."}, {"response": 11, "author": "atli1", "date": "Fri, Sep 27, 2002 (19:12)", "body": "anyone who says the treatment of HG is \"simple\" knows absolutely NOTHING about HG. Women and children still die from it today. If you would like to learn about it, please see hyperemesis.org or http://www.angelfire.com/nt/hugs/ or even hyperemesisgravidarum.com Please learn about diseases before posting extremely offensive assumptions."}, {"response": 12, "author": "atli1", "date": "Fri, Sep 27, 2002 (19:27)", "body": "P.S. HG is NOT a psychosomatic disease, and this has been proven in medical studies. However, since doctors still have no inkling of the etiology or how to treat it, so it must somehow be the patient's fault. (FYI, the antiemetics don't work and the iv saves lives but is NOT a cure for HG and IV's do NOT supply nutrition which is why so many must go on TPN or PEG/J.) Do you have any idea what it is like to be battling the most debilitating illness of your life and be told that you are causing it yourself through psychosomatic disorder? Talk about your secondary victimization! No one would tell a cancer patient that, and at least with cancer you get a break in between the vomiting. My parents both DIED of cancer, and I was sicker than they were in my first pregnancy. This is a rare disease, so the vast majority don't know about it, but do not underestimate the potential for suffering. It is unbelievable and is generally referred to as a sheep in wolf's clothing because it puts you through extraordinary su fering yet most manage to live if treated adequately. Bronte's death had NOTHING to do with her mental state. Give this woman credit. Do you know how many women DON'T want their babies? Yet HG only occurs in approximately 3 out of 1,000 pregnancies. Disproportionate! HG is physiological NOT psychological. Perhaps you will wonder if Charlotte caused her own death via mental problems, but I won't. There is absolutely no mystery to her death. She was among the unfortunate few, one of my HG sisters whose death is no fault of her own."}, {"response": 13, "author": "MelO", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 2003 (02:39)", "body": "It would be perfectly understandable that she died from Hyperemesis Gravidarum. I suffered from it with my pregnancy. I was 5'6 1/2\" tall and down to 95 lbs by my 8th week of pregnancy, due to the unrelenting vomiting. I couldn't move without vomiting. My condition was so bad due to improper treatment by ignorant doctors. I knew full well that without my ER visits to restore nourishing fluids, I could have easily died. HG left untreated can lead to wiernecke's encephathology, coma, Mallory-Weiss tears(causing you to vomit blood, which I PERSONALLY experienced), blindness due to extremely low thiamine levels, and many other problems. Patients on the mend can even die from \"refeeding syndrome\", due to phosphates being introduced into their system too quickly. It happens so fast, it can't be stopped. Check out medical libraries and databases. You'll find women still die to this day from improper treatment of HG. In Charlotte's time I doubt they could have treated it. I've read your only alternative back then was abortion. Pregnancy is, for lack of a better word, a \"parasitic\" relationship The baby will take everything from your body for survival, even if that means maternal death. You have no control over HG. If you try to fight it. It kicks your a** more. I could not even sit up to research it until I was 17 weeks pregnant. You see I had the severe form of HG. You can read a well researched, sourced, and up to date report on HG by a doctor of statistics at: http://web.stat.ucla.edu/~frederic/papers/hg.html To know more you could go to: Helpher.org To know the pain go to: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/hugs/ But your most interesting info will be through searching medical articles and databases at your library. Even most obstetricians won't tell you or don't know how HG is still taking lives to this day. You'll be quite interested to read these articles and find out for yourselves! You'll no longer question the probability that Charlotte died of Hyperemesis Gravidarum. You will KNOW it! P.S. HG has never been proven to be psychological. Even the wacks who suggested it also stated they couldn't back it up. Remember, menopause was also thought of as a \"psychological\" disorder until more research was done. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 13, "subject": "Favorite Lines", "response_count": 24, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (09:44)", "body": "Amy, I cannot believe no one else has posted here yet! I really love the lines you posted above, and the whole garden scene. My absolute favorite is: '...I sometimes have a queer feeling with regard to you- especially when you are near me, as now: it is as if I had a string somewhere under my left ribs, tightly and inextricably knotted to a similar string situated in the corresponding quarter of your little frame. And if that boisterous Channel and two hundred miles or so of land come broad between us, I am afraid that cord of communion will be snapt; and then I've a nervous notion I should take to bleeding inwardly. My second favorite is: 'Thank you, Mr. Rochester, for your great kindness. I am strangely glad to get back again to you: and wherever you are is my home- my only home.' (emphasis mine) But I could go on forever! The quality of CB's writing is such that there can be no end of excellent quotes. What a book..."}, {"response": 2, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (12:38)", "body": "Its a long passage, but it is my favorite: 'Never,' said he, as he ground his teeth, 'never was anything at once so frail and so indomitable. A mere reed she feels in my hand!' (And he shook me with the force of his hold.) 'I could bend her with my finger and thumb: and what good would it do if I bent, if I uptore, if I crushed her? Consider that eye: consider the resolute, wild, free thing looking out of it, defying me, with more than courage- with a stern triumph. Whatever I do with its cage, I cannot get at it- the savage, beautiful creature! If I tear, if I rend the slight prison, my outrage will only let the captive loose. Conqueror I might be of the house; but the inmate would escape to heaven before I could call myself possessor of its clay dwelling-place. And it is you, spirit- with will and energy, and virtue and purity- that I want: not alone your brittle frame. Of yourself you could come with soft flight and nestle against my heart, if you would: seized against your will, you will elude the grasp like an essence- you will vanish ere I inhale your fragrance. Oh! come, Jane, come!'"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (13:44)", "body": "seized against your will, you will elude the grasp like an essence- you will vanish ere I inhale your fragrance. And is this perhaps why he did not pursue her when she left? Beautiful, Lori -- as I said, there are far too many!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (17:11)", "body": "Yes, JANE EYRE has so much incredible poetry throughout! It's such a different book that what we're used to reading in Austen. Charlotte just lays her feelings & passion out on the table. I was reading a book yesterday that says that JE owes quite a bit to PILGRIM'S PROGRESS -- that during each stage of Jane's journey, she learns a bit more about herself, until at the end, she is ready to serve as Rochester's true equal."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (02:29)", "body": "\"There was a time when my cheek burned to give such scornful fiends the lie Ungoverned nature madly spurned The law that bade it not defy O in the days of ardent youth I would have given my life for truth For truth, for right, for liberty I would have gladly, freely died And now I calmly hear and see The vain man smile the fool deride Though no because my heart is tame Though not for fear though not for shame My soul still chafes at every tone Of selfish and self-blinded error My breast still braves the world alone Steeled as it ever was to terror Only I know however I frown The same world will go rolling on (EJB, 1839) Oh - can I put the whole of WH in its entirety here?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (11:39)", "body": "You don't have to! You can find the entire book on-line at: gopher://ftp.std.com:70/00/obi/book/Emily.Bronte/wuther.html.Z And the whole novel of JE at: http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/WomensStudies/ReadingRoom/Fiction/JaneEyre/ Is that great, or what?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Sep  2, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "Here's another great line from JE, about Rochester's capacity to love: 'To women who please me only by their faces, I am the very devil when I find out they have neither souls nor hearts- when they open to me a perspective of flatness, triviality, and perhaps imbecility, coarseness, and ill-temper: but to the clear eye and eloquent tongue, to the soul made of fire, and the character that bends but does not break- at once supple and stable, tractable and consistent- I am ever tender and true.'"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (01:29)", "body": "to the clear eye and eloquent tongue, to the soul made of fire, and the character that bends but does not break- at once supple and stable, tractable and consistent- I am ever tender and true.' Is that not a wonderful description of Jane? No wonder she touched his soul."}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (16:48)", "body": "Yes, it really is. Rochester was able to look beneath the plain exterior & see what she really was."}, {"response": 10, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Sep  9, 1997 (20:51)", "body": "\"Look!\" she cried eagerly, \"that's my room, with the candle in it, and the trees swaying before it... and the other candle is in Joseph's garret...Joseph sits up late, doesn't he? He's waiting till I come hame that he may lock the gate. Well, he'll wait a while yet. It's a rough journey, and a sad heart to travel it; and we must pass by Gimmerton Kirk, to go that journey! We've braved its ghosts often together, and dared each other to stand among the graves and ask them to come...But Heathcliff, if I dare you now, will you venture? If you do, I'll keep you. I'll not lie there by myself: they may bury me twelve feet deep and throw the church down over me; but I won't rest till you are with me...I never will!\" She paused, and resumed with a strange smile. \"He's considering...he'd rather I'd come to him! Find a way, then! not through that Kirkyard...You are slow! Be content, you always followed me!\" WH, Chapter 12 So... do they sleep in the quiet earth or do they walk?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Sep  9, 1997 (21:19)", "body": "Absolutely, they walk!!!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Sep 17, 1997 (03:54)", "body": "\"Her senses never returned - she recognised nobody from the time you left her,: I said. \"She lies with a sweet smile on her face; and her latest ideas wandered back to pleasant early days. Her life closed in a gentle dream - may she wake as kindly in the other world!\" \"May she wake in torment!\" he cried, with frightful vehemence, stamping his foot, and groaning in a sudden paroxysm of ungovernable passion. \"Why, she's a liar to the end! Where is she? Not there - not in heaven - not perished - Where? Oh! you said you cared nothing for my sufferings! And I pray one prayer - I repeat it till my tongue stiffens - Catherine Earnshaw, may you not rest, as long as I am living! You said I killed you - haunt me then! The murdered do haunt their murderers. I believe - I know that ghosts have wandered on earth. Be with me always - take any form - drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss where I cannot find you! Oh God! it is unutterable! I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!\""}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep 17, 1997 (11:42)", "body": "That is an incredible passage, isn't it? It really took my breath away, along with his whole speech to her in her bedroom: \"A movement of Catherine's relieved me a little presently. She put up her hand to clasp his neck, and bring her cheek to his as he held her; while he, in return, covering her with frantic caresses, said wildly,--- \"You teach me now how cruel you've been---cruel and false. Why did you despise me? Why did you betray your own heart, Cathy? I have not one word of comfort. You deserve this. You have killed yourself. Yes, you may kiss me, and cry, and wring out my kisses and tears; they'll blight you---they'll damn you. You loved me; then what right had you to leave me? What right---answer me---for the poor fancy you felt for Linton? Because misery, and degradation, and death, and nothing that God or Satan could inflict would have parted us, you, of your own will, did it. I have not broken your heart---you have broken it; and in breaking it you have broken mine. So much the worse for me that I am strong. Do I want to live? What kind of living will it be when you----- O God! would you like to live with your soul in the grave?\""}, {"response": 14, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Sep 18, 1997 (20:36)", "body": "Beautiful. When I was younger and a good deal less restrained than I am now (actually, I'm twenty-three, but I like to give the impression of ponderous age), I used to quote chapter and verse of WH. Many was the stunned audience of school fellows who got to hear my passionate delivery of the \"Nelly, I am Heathcliff!\" passage. My Uni lecture notes are annotated with illustrations crawling along the margins and spilling onto the text of lines such as \"Ah! you are come, are you, Edgar Linton?\"....\"Your are one of those things that are ever found when least wanted, and when you are wanted, never! I suppose we shall have plenty of lamentations, now...I see we shall...but they can't keep me from my narrow home out yonder - my resting place where I'm bound before Spring is over! There it is, not among the Lintons, mind, under the chapel-roof; but in the open air with a headstone, and you may please yourself, whether you go to them, or come to me!....What you touch at present, you may have; but my soul will be on that hill-top before you lay hands on me again. I don't want you, Edgar; I'm past wanting you...Return to your books... I'm glad you possess a consolation, for all you had in me is gone.\""}, {"response": 15, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 19, 1997 (11:27)", "body": "Great stuff!! Though in all fairness, since Nelly didn't report the extent of Cathy's illness to Edgar, how could he know she would practically waste away within three days? I am hoping to hike to Top Withins when I am in Haworth next week & see if I can catch a resemblance to \"Wuthering Heights.\""}, {"response": 16, "author": "Jigs", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (21:32)", "body": "Back to \"Jane\". After reading all of the above, I thought I would test a theory that no matter what page my book opened to I'd find a jewel. How about this: \"'I have been with my aunt, sir, who is dead.' 'A true Janian reply! Good angels be my guard! She comes from the other world--from the abode of people who are dead; and tells me so when she meets me alone here in the gloaming! If I dared, I'd touch you, to see if you are substance or shadow, you elf!....'\" Or, \"'Tell me now, fairy as you are,---can't you give me a charm, or a philter, or something of that sort, to make me a handsome man?' 'It would be past the power of magic, sir.'\" What delicate dances around each other CB has them do, no? I can't leave out one of my all-time faves, which I occasionally will startle (puzzle?) acquaintances with: \"You shall walk up the pyramids of Egypt!!\" Taken in the right context, it can be very satisfying to blurt that out!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (21:41)", "body": "That's one aspect of Charlotte that's often overlooked amidst all the tragedy: she really had a great sense of humour! Those exchanges bet. Jane & Rochester are truly witty & fun, certainly as much as some of the ripostes bet. Lizzy & Darcy in P&P!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Heulwen", "date": "Sun, Sep 20, 1998 (21:11)", "body": "Well, apart from the entire book Wuthering Heights I like the scene where Catherine is describing her dream to Nelly: \"This is nothing,' cried she;'I was only going to say that heaven did not seem to be my home ; and I broke my heart with weeping to come back to earth; and the angels were so angry that they flung me out, into the midle of the heath on the top of Wuthering Heights, where I woke sobbing for joy. That will do to explain my secret, as well as the other. I've no more business to marry Edgar Linton than I have to be in heaven; and if the wicked man in therehad not brought Heathcliff so low, I shouldn't have hought of it. It would degreade me to marry Heathcliff, now; so he shall never know how I love him; and that, not because he's handsome, Nelly, but because he's more myself than I am. Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same, and Linton's is as different as a moonbeam from lightning, or frost from fire.\" and chapter 34 (Heathcliff dies) I sought, and soon discovered, the three head-stones on the slope next to the moor - the middle one, grey, and half buried in heath - Edgar Linton's only harmonized by the turf and moss, creeping up its foot - Heathcliff's still bare. the poem \"Faith and Despondancy\" I could go on forever, so I'll stop."}, {"response": 19, "author": "juliet", "date": "Mon, Aug 30, 1999 (14:32)", "body": "In a novel of great turbulence and unrest, the greatest lines from Wuthering Heights must be Cathy's serene vision of the release of death : \"The thing that irks me most is this shattered prison, after all. I'm tired, tired of being enclosed here. I'm wearying to escape into that glorious world, and to be always there;not seeing it dimly through tears, and yearning for it through the walls of an aching heart; but really with it and in it...I shall be incomparably beyond and above you all.\" Also, the novel's final paragraph must be one of the most calming and peaceful in literature. A fine end to the finest novel! Does anyone agree? I'd love to know..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "chadelpina", "date": "Tue, Mar  6, 2001 (20:57)", "body": "Why doesn't anyone mention Villette? I could probably randomly open that book and feel 100% certain that I had found the best passage. But for now my favorite is: \"We walked back to the Rue Fossette by moonlight-- such moonlight as fell on Eden-- shining through the shades of the Great Garden, and haply gliding a path glorious for a step divine-- a Presence nameless. Once in their lives some men and women go back to these first fresh days of our great Sire and Mother-- taste that grand morning's dew-- bathe in its sunrise.\" And then, one page later: \"He deemed me born under his star: he seemed to have spread over me its beam like a banner. Once-- unknown and unloved, I held him harsh and strange; the low stature, the wiry make, the angles, the darkness, the manner, displeased me. Now, penetrated with his influence, and living by his affection, having his worth by intellect, and his goodness by heart-- I preferred him before all humanity.\" It makes me want to cry just thinking about it! But really, the passages are pretty melodramatic, but that is part of Villette's attraction, I think. Lucy Snowe seems to be such an accessible character, and yet her relationship with M. Paul seems unearthly to me, more so than Jane & Mr. Rochester's..."}, {"response": 21, "author": "saranha77", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 2004 (22:50)", "body": "In WH, there's a passage between the younger generation, Linton and Catherine, which I like because it takes these really dramatic issues of Heathcliff/Cathy/Edgar and makes it into a little squabble, which really entertains me for somet reason... \"'My papa scorns yours!' cried Linton. 'He calls him a sneaking fool.' 'Yours is a wicked man,' retorted Catherine; 'and you are very naughty to dare to repeat what he says. He must be wicked to have made Aunt Isabella leave him as she did.' 'She didn't leave him,' said the boy; 'you shan't contradict me.' 'She did,' cried my young lady. 'Well, I'll tell you something!' said Linton. 'Your mother hated your father: now then.' 'Oh!' exclaimed Catherine, too enraged to continue. 'And she loved mine,' he added. 'You little liar! I hate you now!' she panted, and her face grew red with passion. 'She did! She did!' sang Linton.\""}, {"response": 22, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jan  1, 2005 (07:32)", "body": "What role does Linton play?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Mon, Jun  5, 2006 (09:43)", "body": "Well, Linton is the child of Heathcliff and Isabella, the sister of Edgar Linton. Edgar is Catherine\ufffds husband - *the Catherine* Heathcliff is madly in love with! Heathcliff neither loves his wife Isabella nor his sickly son Linton - both of them are just pawns in his chess game! He forces Linton and Catherine No.2 (the daughter of Catherine and Edgar) to marry. Edgar and Linton die soon afterwards and Heathcliff gets Thrushcross Grange (Isabella died years before) - in addition to Wuthering Heights, which he already owns! Revenge complete, but nothing gained from it, I dare say! bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 24, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Mon, Jun  5, 2006 (09:54)", "body": "If I had to choose one passage from the entire book, I`d take this one, because it`s the book`s essence in my eyes: Do you think, because I am poor, obscure, plain, and little, I am soulless and heartless? You think wrong!--I have as much soul as you,--and full as much heart! And if God had gifted me with some beauty and much wealth, I should have made it as hard for you to leave me, as it is now for me to leave you. I am not talking to you now through the medium of custom, conventionalities, nor even of mortal flesh;--it is my spirit that addresses your spirit; just as if both had passed through the grave, and we stood at God's feet, **EQUAL,--AS WE ARE!**\" bye:-), Miss Eyre bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 14, "subject": "The Victorian Age", "response_count": 14, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Jul 28, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "I remember reading an article in the Smithsonian about the history of photography. We all know the facination of the V's with death, but they took it to the nth degree. There were photos of people in coffins (one with the surviving twin posed in front). If I remember correctly and I may not, Lewis Carroll enjoyed photographing pre-adolsecent girls nude. That was kinda accepted as a symbol of purity of somesuch nonsence. The general overall view I got (with my modern day view) was that he was one sick c eature, and because of the repression he was not alone! Note: this was later in the age. You might be able to find the article, I know it was within the past 3 years. Also, (later in the age) is another Smithsonian article on Jack the Ripper... It really does not focus too much on the horrors of the crime but on the motivation of the killer. He was a drug addict and had a bad marriage. He was not convicted of murder, but his wife was convicted of killing him!! Very twisted... There is a book about about Queen Victoria called something like the \"and the Queen laughed\". Prince Charles endorsed it. We all know about her advice to her daughter \"grit your teeth and think of England\", but her husband removed her stocking on their wedding night! Racey beginning for such a repressive time! Of course they cultured the language of flowers. I find that facinating. and after the gruesome beginning (from me above) hard to believe in the same era!! I think the Victorian Age is so very interesting because is it so contridictory. Supposedly very moral, yet the number of prostitutes reached the greatest number ever in English History! Whew!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 28, 1997 (21:25)", "body": "Also having the same double standard for men & women as in the Regency. The attitude toward women was just unbelievable. This is what the Brontes struggled against their entire careers (and had to employ pseudonyms as well, as did \"Geroge Eliot.\"). One review of JANE EYRE said that it was exemplary if written by a man; and odious if written by a woman! My favorite is Robert Southey's advice to Charlotte (he was Poet Laureate) in a letter: \"Literature is not the business of a woman's life, nor should it be.\" Uh huh. And whose name do we remember now, Charlotte Bronte or Robert Southey?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Tue, Jul 29, 1997 (10:01)", "body": "Uh huh. And whose name do we remember now, Charlotte Bronte or Robert Southey? Too funny!!! Had not read that review of Jane Eyre!! How revolting those men were!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jul 29, 1997 (11:41)", "body": "It was really nasty. Even Charlotte's friend & admirer, G.H. Lewes (later 'George Eliot's' illicit lover) accused her of being 'unladylike' etc. in a review of SHIRLEY (his wife had just given birth to a child by his best friend, so I guess he had an ax to grind). The criticisms against JE during Charlotte's own time were that it was \"coarse\" (a.k.a, she talked about feelings & passion from a woman's P.O.V.) & that the author \"must stand outside her own sex\" or some such nonsense. Here's something that s really bizarre (and it ain't PG-13): there was a belief in the 17th-19th century that the closer a woman came to orgasm, the more the risk of her spreading V.D. Hence, the lid clamped down on women either experiencing or discussing passion. Poor Charlotte!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Tue, Jul 29, 1997 (20:37)", "body": "oh my.... (clear throat) Poor all the other women...!;-p but I wonder how many really bought into that c---? Sex is the most powerful drive, supposedly, we humans have. (Perhaps that does not include the need to eat chocolate.);-) I think I have a book (if its in print it must be true) that talks aobut this...its in the attic...I'll get back with you..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 30, 1997 (00:19)", "body": "I wonder too about the Victorian age in general. Even though the popular myth is that it was a very repressed, clamped-down time, I have seen Victorian pornography (pretty tame); and what about all that fascination with mesmerism & the occult? Sometimes I wonder whether Charlotte herself was oblivious to her own sexuality. You could kind of draw this inference from her reaction to the whole M. Heger affair ( she wrote him torrid letters which could be construed as adulterous, then professed shock when his wife got suspicious). Or was she just covering up? You really have to read between the lines w. these Victorians..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "nomad", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (15:22)", "body": "A few months ago a friend emailed me a long article written by a certain parson's wife (a victorian) all about the marital duties of young women. I didn't keep it but I can get it again if your interested. I remember feeling particularly sorry for the parson."}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (19:41)", "body": "Sherry -- sure, that would be great! There was this movement afoot during the Victorian era re: \"the angel in the house\" -- i.e., this was the alloted role for women -- divinity of the kitchen & nursery, I guess. Independent-minded women like Charlotte's friend Mary Taylor couldn't stand it, & ended up emigrating to New Zealand, where she could at least run a business without shame. For women of genius, like Charlotte, it must have been hell on earth! Women were supposed to be self-effacing & self-sacrificing -- men conceded that they were \"morally superior,\" but I'm not sure what that won them, besides death in childbirth. The patriarchy just ran so deep -- even Charlotte's friend & admirer, Thackeray, felt uncomfortable around her, because she was \"a clever woman.\" And M. Heger, Charlotte's \"only real literary master\" paid lip service to all the 'woman's place' mumbo jumbo of th time. Matthew Arnold said that Charlotte's work was filled with \"rage and hate.\" Can we wonder why?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (02:17)", "body": "Whenever I think about analysing the Victorian era, John Fowles's \"The French Lieutenants Woman\" comes to mind. Although a novel, it almost reads as a series of essays on everything from Victorian prostitution to the emergence of palaentology. It reveals as much about our own age as it does about the Victorians. I think we're only begining to begin to reappraise the Victorian world. Each generation goes through a sort of oedipal situation where, in establishing their own identity, they react to the previous era. Victorian art, poetry and literature has been considered over-sentimental and just downwrite trashy for much of the 20th century. The Pre-Raphaelite artists were dismissed, poets such as Tennyson and Christina Rossetti lowered in estimation, and even the novels of Dickens have waxed and waned in academic (if not mass) popularity. Fortunately, we're going through a reassesment - a great relief for someone like myself who always loved the Pre-Raphaelite, even when my choices raised eyebrows at University (after all, Dante Gabriel Rossetti was one of the first to really appreciate WH and prefer it to JE)."}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (11:45)", "body": "The popular conception of the Victorian age is that it was an incredibly repressive time & sex was a dirty word. What was actually going on beneath the surface isn't hard to imagine. I've read that Victorianism was a reaction to the prior, more lenient Regency period. Just got a book called REVIEWING SEX: Gender and the Receptio nof Victorian Novels, which should be interesting. I've kind of gone through the ebb & flow you describe above: when I was in high school, I ADORED Dickens, but I'm much les of a fan now, due to the sentimentality & waxwork female \"child-women\" (yech!). Still love Thackeray & Elliot though, that's for sure. And I'm going to see OLIVER! the musical while I'm in London, so I guess I haven't strayed that far from the mold. At least there are no female waifs in it!!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Sep 24, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "Yeah, Dickens can make you grind your teeth that way. Must be why I always barracked for Estella - bitter and twisted she might have been, but at least she got to stand up for herself. In a misguided way. Then she gets effectively punished for it! \"A Tale of Two Cities\" was my favourite (go Sydney Carton!), but I couldn't stand Lucy Manet. I used to wail at the end...what a way to go, but did you have to sacrifice yourself for that vapid piece of baggage?! The Ronald Coleman version was gorgeous, save for the fact that Lucy had my teeth grinding all the time. I much preferred Madame Defarge - she was a woman with direction! Let her have the Darnays, I say! Um, yeah. So that's my rant for the moment."}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep 25, 1997 (19:00)", "body": "I think that Lucy & Madame Defarge with her knitting show Dickens' 2 conceptions of women: Sweet angelic thing, or vampire. Something like BLEAK HOUSE made me run screaming even in high school. And all those \"littles\": Dorrit & Nell -- blech! I appreciate that Dickens had a sweeping epic grasp as a novelist & did some good work to expose social evils, but I just can't wade through his female characters. Nancy in Oliver Twist is kind of cool though -- she's not an angel/she's not a vampire -- she's a 'bad' woman with a heart of gold, I suppose. And I always felt bad when Bill Sykes killd her...."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (00:26)", "body": "Okay Amy, you wanted someone to comment on ANYTHING. Well, to save you wandering the moors Emily style, how about the subject of some great Victorian novelistic preoccupations. For example, syphyllis. Which I'm not even sure I've spelt correctly, but anyroad.. This seems to have been a tremendous preoccupation. Witness the legislation that allowed any woman walking the street to be brought in and held in hospitals to determine if they were carriers. It was aimed, of course at prostitutes, not at the men who were their customers. Anxious to avoid STDs, men even went to the most vile ends imaginable - procuring children for intercourse, in the hope that they were disease free. I've heard it argued that \"Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde\" is not unconnected to these preoccupations. But of course, when it comes to bodily fluids and contagious conditions, the ultimate expression from the period is the one and only \"Dracula: (Which I forgot to add to my top ten books list). And it's now a century since Bram Stoker penned it. Now there's a novel with a subtext. Several of them. What a product of the subconcious! It's a very fertile (pardon the pun) ground for an exploration of Victorian sensuality and repression."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (14:52)", "body": "Wow! That's interesting, Elena -- I had no idea. And what of Charles Dodgson's obsession with little girls? And Dickens' too? I love Charlotte's comments that the women in books were like no women she had ever seen -- half angel; half painted doll. I was also reading recently that in the Victorian period, women were supposed to be completely nonsexual & to take no pleasure in the act if they were to be considered \"good.\" Speaking of Nancy in OLIVER -- there seems to be some implication that she was a prostitute as well as a pickpocket. Am I misreading this from the musical (which I just saw in London?) bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 15, "subject": "Branwell Bronte", "response_count": 39, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (04:50)", "body": "I haven't heard of this writer, what novels/short stories did he write?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "nomad", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (15:11)", "body": "Amy, the last volume I read of Jane Eyre had a brief bio of C. Bronte. In it the author suggested she probably died of pneumonia helped along by her fear of an early death like her siblings."}, {"response": 3, "author": "nomad", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (15:16)", "body": "Sorry I meant that to go under the other topic. As for Branwell, I believe he was a talented painter as well as writer but as so often is the case he was ate up by demons. Considering his end , I think the biographers have him pretty close to the truth."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (19:45)", "body": "Terry: the only thing that Branwell, who was Charlotte, Emily, & Anne's brother, published during his lifetime were some poems in the local newspapers. He was Charlotte's partner in Glasstown (later Angria), their juvenalia, and was said to be a talented & imaginative writer. Unfortunately, it seems he couldn't keep his Byronic passions in check and became a drunkard & opium addict, finally dying young of consumption, helped by his own physical self-destruction. It seems a very sad, wasted life, if we can believe the biographers (and Charlotte's letters -- I don't think she'd have reason to lie). He was the apple of his father's eye, being the only male, & turned out a terrible disappointment."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (19:48)", "body": "Sherry: So you heard it was pneumonia? It seems that every book I read propounds a different theory. Lyndall Gordon, in CHARLOTTE BRONTE, A PASSIONATE LIFE, theorizes that Tabby, who died a month before Charlotte, might have infected her with a fatal disease. There's also the theory that Charlotte had had consumption for a long time, & that pregnancy may have aggravated this condition. It's just so frustrating not to know for sure!!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "I am now in the midst of an 800 page bio of the Brontes, by Juliet Barker. She is basically Branwell's biggest fan & apologist. According to HER version, it was Branwell's affair with Mrs. Robinson while he was acting as tutor in her home which flung him down the wayward path. But everyone else, from eyewitnesses at the Black Bull to Charlotte, point to his drunkenness & dissolute ways much earlier. Anybody have any thoughts? I'm all for character redemption if it's true, but wondering if Barker has let her prejudices get the better of her (and I think some people on this Boa d know about P&P!)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (03:31)", "body": "I thought Barker wasn't too bad on Branwell. He deserved some rehabilitation, and Patrick Bronte certainly deserved the reappraisal he received at her hands. I read somewhere (it might have been Barker or it might have been in an essay on Branwell's artistic efforts) that if he hadn't been so concerned with the extremes of heaven and hell, hadn't been so caught up with an idea of life as a duality consisting either ectasy or agony, and rather had just got on with the business of earning a living, he might have been a very competant artist. Had he ever been able to muster the energy and commitment, he may very well have made a decent writer. Some of his existing verse is on a parr with Anne's and Charlotte's. His artistic skills should not be judged by the portraits of his sisters. There are several examples of portraits he did that are rather competant, though not brilliant."}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (11:27)", "body": "I think that if he hadn't been such a prisoner of his emotions, Branwell could have been a great writer too. I guess what I take issue with in Barker is laying all the blame at Mrs. Robinson's feet -- it was clear that Branwell's character & dissolution began long before he showed up at Thorp Green. I can agree more with Barker's re-assessment of Mr. Bronte, who has been given a terrible rap ever since Mrs. Gaskell's LIFE."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (20:25)", "body": "Earlier Bronte biographers blaimed Mrs Robinson for being the instigator in their affair (seducer seems to strong a word). His family and Mrs Gaskell certainly felt she was.Then came a period where it was doubted that the affair had even happened - a lot of biographers felt (and still do) that it was Branwell's excuse for yet another failure.I think what Barker was trying to do was examine the whys and wherefores of the matter, and suggest a triggering catalyst for his final dissolution. If it hadn't been Mrs Robinson it probably would have been something else - I can't help but think of Emily's assessment of Branwell as a \"hopeless being\". But whatever happened at Thorpe Green was the begining of the end."}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (11:40)", "body": "Absolutely. That's when poor Branwell completely fell apart. But as you say, the final impetus could have been anything -- in a way, I'm surprised it wasn't his being sacked from the railroad job. Maybe Barker was looking for a single \"dramatic\" incident that could explain it all away, but it was clear that Branwell had been drinking heavily & drugging long before he went to Thorpe Green, if we can believe other eyewitness accounts."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Sep 22, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "The other interesting aspect to Branwell's story is the creative synthesis he shared with Charlotte when they were younger. The dynamics of their writing relationship, the way in which their works fed off/into each other, is an intrinsic part of Charlotte's development as a writer. At the time of the glasstown saga, she was enamoured of male narrators for her stories. It was when she adopted the female persona for her narrators that she really found her authorial voice - look at the difference between \"The Professor\" and \"Jane Eyre\". Charlotte's hard reaction to Branwell's dissolution seems to betoken a feeling of profound betrayal."}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Sep 22, 1997 (11:48)", "body": "Yes, Elena, absolutely. I've read theories that she felt she easily could have become Branwell, had she given in to her despair over M. Heger the way he did over Mrs. Robsinson. I think that this latent guilt addd to her contempt for her. I just finished reading all of Charlotte's source letters up to 1847, & she doesn't fail to mention to Ellen after 1846 how much Branwell is annoying & disappointing her. I think this was a case of \"there for the grace of God go I.\""}, {"response": 13, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Sep 23, 1997 (23:38)", "body": "She probably also felt a good deal of resentment over the fact that while Branwell, as the (formerly) favoured male child was able to parade his misfortunes in love and wallow in the drama publically, Charlotte had to be miserable in silence. That would be enough to discolour anyones view of a sibling. I still keep coming back to the Heger letters and the extraordinary story of their survival. Had Madame Heger not preserved them, we would have had nothing beyond speculation to hint at her grand passion. What else has not survived - twists and turns in their stories that are mere conjecture or undreamed of? What was the truth to the Anne/William Weightman story? What did Charlotte write to Mary Taylor? And Emily...well, ANYTHING about Emily would be better than the near nothing that exists."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep 24, 1997 (12:05)", "body": "Elena, these are my questios -exactly.- Especially: what did M. Heger's letters BACK to Charlotte say? Did he in fact instruct her to address him secretly at the Athenee Royale so that Madame Heger wouldn't know about thier correspondence? I also think that Charlotte's letters to Mary Taylor, which Mary burned, would have provided us with a much deeper insight into Charlotte's character. With Mary (unlike Ellen) C. would have been free to open up our heart, & we would know so much more about her views on art, women, literature, even the M. Heger affair. Alas! But at least we do have a fairly voluminous C. correspondence, whereas any letters from Anne & Emily are so sparse."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Sep 24, 1997 (20:18)", "body": "Was it Barker that suggested that it was Charlotte rather than Anne that loved William Weightman? I thought that was rather intriguing."}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep 25, 1997 (19:03)", "body": "Yes, it was Barker. At first, I dismissed the idea out of hand; but after reading Margaret Smith's THE LETTERS OF CHARLOTTE BRONTE (which go up to 1847) I actually think that Barker had a point. Charlotte mentions Weightman almost obsessively in her letters to Ellen, & she expresses an almost jealous bitterness when she discovers him to be a \"thorough-going male flirt.\""}, {"response": 17, "author": "MichaelM", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (22:20)", "body": "Hi all. Is it too late to participate in this conference? I'm so happy to find this site and all you Bronte enthusiasts. I'm fascinated by all the Brontes, and am in the middle of collaborating a musical piece concerning Branwell and Charlotte. (We hope to perform it in San Francisco next spring.) I do think Branwell's life is tragic. If I remember my reading right, there's a point in Charlotte's life (while she's serving as a governess) when she realizes that she needs to spend less time with her imagination fully engaged in Glass Town. All that feverish excitement is a temptation she can' afford to yield to much, if she's going to cope with the dreary responsibilities of being an adult. Around that time, she begins writing stories in which the Duke of Zamorna and the Percy's, in slightly modified form, become inhabitants of Yorkshire instead of Verdopolis. Part of Branwell's tragedy, I think, is that he never made that leap. He couldn't leave Glass Town. Also, he couldn't stand the intermediary steps between being a talented youth and being a working adult artist. Unlike in the cases of Charlotte, Emily and Anne, the way was not barred for him. As a man, he could have made his way into the world. But -- like Charlotte with her reluctance to reap the benefits of being a \"literary lioness\" -- the possibility didn't free him On the contrary, he imploded under the pressure it created. I'd welcome any and all comments or conversation. What a delight to find this website."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (01:31)", "body": "Your comments on Branwell were interesting, Michael. I've always felt that he was, if not quite a figure of tragic stature, certainly a very sad one. His stilted attempts at breaking away from the juvenalia make an intersting comparison with his sisters. Charlotte made the break and Emily didn't. I've never felt that Emily's work is any less than her sister's because of this. Charlotte found her imaginary world too seductive, for Emily it was sustaining."}, {"response": 19, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (12:43)", "body": "Welcome Michael! We're very glad you found us!! I have mixed feelings about Branwell -- yes, he was a tragic figure, but primarily of his own making. He had as much literary talent as his sisters, but chose to throw away all of his promise in dead-end affairs, drink, opium, and an excess of self-pity. I actually think that Charlotte's breaking away from Glasstown & Angria improved the quality of her work -- her literary love affairs have a real quality which I don't think Emily's do (especially the co pletely non-sexual aspect of them). Not to denigrate Emily in any way -- she was a supreme genius. But Charlotte's leaving \"the infernal world\" colored her work with the real one, which I think enhances it."}, {"response": 20, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, Dec 25, 1997 (08:56)", "body": "HI, everyone, and a merry Christmas. This is my first time on this topic, and after just having read all the above, I couldn't resist trying my clumsy hand at a humble reply. Recently I've done alot of thinking about Branwell's presentation in various biographies, especially that of Dr. Barker. I found it a good and very well researched work, though she seemed at times almost too keen to 'shed new light' on certain matters. But that's perhaps also not a bad thing - looking at issues in different lights and from different angles, is what keeps us interested and going on the Bronte topic. Over the past year I've read quite alot about the Brontes, and it's allways struck me that something about Branwell's downfall somehow doesn't seem to quite add up. What puzzles me most are the following two questions: Why did HE of all people shout his affair with Mrs. Robinson from the rooftops? No-one else did. Secondly, Anne wrote in a private writing that she had been a witness to the WORST kind of morall error (something like that, I can't quote accurately on this, but anyone who has read a biography of her will probably know what I'm referring to) being committed at Thorpe Green. The worst kind? I will start my speculation concentrating on the second issue first. Anne, so I've gathered, was the closest the sisters ever came to being 'women of the world'. She was the only sister who managed to stay away from home for any length of time, earning a living and being independent. Living with more than one upperclass family, where parties and social gatherings were the rule, rather than an exception, surely she had at some point seen forms of infidelity. Shallowness and not particularly high moral tanderds were no strangers to that class of people in the 1800's, and Anne's own books are no icons on noble moral behaviour either. So surely Branwell's falling in love with the wrong woman, and the fact that it was forbidden could not have been the WORST kind ofmoral wrongdoing she had ever witnessed, could it? Also, we continually read that she was kind, gentle, quiet, patient etc., etc.; as such one would expect HER to have been the sister who supported Branwell, indeed be the sympathetic sister sh was to her other siblings. What vexed her into loosing all empathy with her once so dear big brother? Before continuing on this, I want to go back to the first question: Why did Branwell himself make such a big issue of his affair with Mrs. Robinson? After all, he got sacked very quietly, almost too quietly for one who has been making eyes for his employer's wife. If Mr Robinson kept the reasons for his dismissal quiet, and Anne was obviously keen to keep it quiet as well, why did HE blurt it all out? After all, even in this day and age, no young man would willingly go to his parents (especially with clergyman for a father) after having had a similar experience, and having had the chance to keep it quiet, and so elaborately reveal the whole thing. Why was he so keen on everyone KNOWING? He was an intelligent chap - what if he was trying to make sure that everyone knew about his blunder, in order to conceal his true 'sin'? I don't mean to cause havoc, but what if Branwell was in fact homosexual? I mean, imagine being homosexual in the 1800's - that WAS one of the worst moral sins of the day, was i not? The kind of thing that would repell kind, gentle, religious Anne, and even Charlotte who was once closest to him; but it was also the kind of thing Emily would probably have had the mental capacity to understand - remember, she was the only sister who remained close to him right up until the end, even his doting father didn't. Emily was the only one who would not have condemned him out of hand, as she posessed a much, much broader vision than probably ANY woman in those days. Did Branwell get the sack, because he in fact became infatuated with his young pupil, Edmund Robinson? Could this have led to his intense self-hatred, his absolute determination to destroy himself, and his need to remain intoxicated? If he were homosexual, he would have regarded it as a terrible moral sin HIMSELF (sadly), therefore believed himself evil, and his life utterly worthless. Did he destroy himself as a kind of self-punishment for his 'great sin'? Greetings"}, {"response": 21, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Mon, Jan  5, 1998 (19:32)", "body": "Hi all -- it's MichaelM. Between the holidays and my forgetting my password it took me awhile to get back here! I just bought Barker's book and haven't had a chance to do more than start it yet. I'm excited to continue my researches! I loved everyone's responses. I don't think that anyone lost in the world of imagination could have depicted romantic relationships with as much reality as Charlotte does, particularly in Villette. At the same time, I agree with Elena that Emily didn't need to subdue her attachment to imaginary worlds in order to create great works. For Branwell, though, the case was different. He got lost. I need to do more reading, but my gut instinct is that Riette has totally hit the nail on the head. Branwell's story doesn't add up. Why does he make extravagant claims to have had an affair with Mrs. Robinson when in fact the Robinsons never seem to have had any domestic quarrels, even after Branwell's dismissal? Why did Mr. Robinson threaten to \"expose\" Branwell? How could he do so without exposing his own wife? On the other hand, he COULD expose Branwell for making overtures to his son or for being involved in some other homosexual liaison -- the shame would be more squarely Branwell's. There is also the matter of the mysterious payments that Branwell received. Did he have a secret benefactor? Or was someone paying him to keep silence? Could he have been blackmailing the Robinsons? This is all merely speculative. I don't know how old Branwell's pupil was at the time of his employment, so I won't venture an opinion there. But I agree with Riette: If you add homosexuality to the picture, it begins to make sense how Branwell's drunken pecadilloes could loom so large in his mind and cause him such moral anguish. It all reminds me of William Beckford at the beginning of the century and Oscar Wilde at the end, who were both \"exposed\" by the fathers of young men they were involved with and suffered hugely (and with great morbidity) under the stigma. Looking forward to more!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan  6, 1998 (22:22)", "body": "Hi all! This argument about Branwell seducing young Edmund Robinson has been put forward before. Edmund was about 12 at the time, BTW. That -is- an intriguing question about why Branwell choose to trumpet his affair from the rooftops rather than keeping it quiet. But it seemed his personality was so self-aggrandizing and filled with self-pity that it wouldn't have been out of character for him to do so. Maybe blaming Lydia Robinson gave him a scapegoat to blame or a false deity on which to base his h pes (that she was going to marry him after her husband died). I also think that to a very religious person like Anne, adultery was taken very seriously & viewed as a terrible moral transgression. So that's my view. Anything is possible of course but I tend to believe Barker & her assertations that the affair bet. Mrs. Robinson actually happened, and that it hastened his ruin."}, {"response": 23, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (17:32)", "body": "Hi - just came back from wonderful holiday in Namibia, my home country. Sigh. Amy, do you still know where you read the argument about Branwell seducing Edmund Robinson? As you can imagine, I'd love to read it!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (14:55)", "body": "I've seen it mentioned in bios, but I can't remember which ones specifically. I think it's an old theory which has been bandied about for some time now. If I come across it again, I'll let you know."}, {"response": 25, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Mon, Feb  9, 1998 (18:31)", "body": "Hi. I'm still reading the Barker book, currently in the chapter called \"Mrs. Robinson\" which discusses what happened to Branwell. Barker writes: \"Every possible explanation has been put forward [about what happened to Branwell at Thorp Green], from Branwell's having used his undoubted skills in handwriting to forge his employer's signature to the suggestion that he corrupted and seduced the young Edmund Robinson who was alone in his care.\" (Barker, p. 456) The footnote leads to \"Mildred Christian, 'Branwell Bronte and the Robinsons of Thorp Green': unpublished typescript. (c.1965), in Mildred Christian Papers, BPM; Du Maurier, pp. 163-4.\" I think the homosexuality theory is in Du Maurier's The Infernal World of Branwell Bronte (Garmondsworth, Penguin Books, 1972), which I haven't read. Barker thinks the affair with Mrs. Robinson really happened, and offers all the evidence available to her to support that. On the other hand, I've read excerpts from some of Branwell's letters (also quoted by Barker) to my friends, and everybody thinks there may be something to the homosexuality idea. Without my prompting. Sexuality being what it is (fluid and subject to different interpretations at different times in history), it's quite possible that Branwell was somewhat homosexual but nevertheless did have an affair with a strong and bold women 17 years his senior. Things like this happen all the time. I haven't finished the chapter yet. I'm still enjoying Barker very much, although I agree with you, Amy, that she doesn't seem to like Charlotte much. I don't know why...I love Charlotte for some of the very reasons she seems disdainful. Anyway, I can't wait to read more. It's a fascinating story!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 11, 1998 (12:41)", "body": "I think Barker backs up her thesis very ably that the affair with Mrs. Robinson did happen. Other biographers dismiss it as a product of Branwell's overactive imagination & proclivity to self-aggrandizement. Remember too Anne's comments about this affair -- something along the line that she had seen the worst human nature had to offer at Thorp Green. She was very moral, so this may have meant simple adultery. But we don't know."}, {"response": 27, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Wed, Feb 11, 1998 (18:56)", "body": "Hi again. I finished reading the chapter. It is so hard to tell what did or didn't happen. I guess we'll never know. I agree that Barker does a wonderful job of supporting her theory. On the other hand, a lot of the evidence comes from Branwell himself (his letters to Leyland, the things he said to his family that they dared to record in surviving letters), and Branwell doesn't seem entirely reliable. The hard evidence we have about the Robinson family does not add up to Branwell and Lydia having an affair, notwithstanding Barker's conjectures about \"what the gardener saw.\" But it's clear that Branwell was broken-hearted. Barker astutely suggests that part of Charlotte's irritation with Branwell may well have been that she herself had spent two years miserable because of her love for a married man, but had NOT embarked on an adulterous affair with M. Heger & had done her best to suppress all expression of her feelings (at least until she wrote Villette). Branwell, on the other hand, seems to have got to experience both the affair and the whirlwind of publicity about his sorrow. In other words, Charlotte spent two years choking on her frustration, while Branwell got to carry on like the Duke of Zamorna. What strikes me over and over again about this story is how SIMILAR Charlotte and Branwell are. They really are partners in their emotional reaction to their world, as well as in their literary ambitions. In their mid to late twenties, they both suffered terrible anguish over their love for married, unavailable people, and they both wrote tortured poetry about it. Anyway, just rambling on. I'm so fascinated by this biography. Now I have to brace myself for reading the account of 1848. Till later!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 12, 1998 (19:57)", "body": "Michael: You are absolutely right about the similarities bet. Charlotte & Branwell. I think her extreme contempt & even hatred of him during his dissipated days was that he was the living embodiment of what she was FEELING inside. I daresay that if Msr. Heger had shown up on her doorstep in Haworth, she would have run away with him, wife & 6 kids or not. So I think the contempt she felt for herself was transferred to her feelings for Branwell."}, {"response": 29, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Wed, Feb 18, 1998 (20:59)", "body": "I agree! I also think she felt more betrayed by Branwell's downfall than any other family member did. Following 1848 Charlotte spoke and wrote often of her deep attachment to Emily. I don't doubt that attachment, but it's nevertheless true that Charlotte's true co-hort in creative activity was Branwell, just as Emily's was Anne. It's as if Charlotte reimagined the relationships after her siblings were dead as a way of further disassociating herself from Branwell. I've just been reading the section in Barker's book about Charlotte's big trip to London, including dinner at the Thackeray's, etc. I really think that only Branwell could have joined Charlotte in these kinds of pleasures. I can't imagine Emily ever bothering herself about literary chitchat with strangers. Anne might have enjoyed what was there to enjoy but found the whole thing pretty vain. But Branwell, he would have eaten it up, just as Charlotte did in her modest way. Branwell and Charlotte were the Verdopolites, after all. I'm plowing on in Barker. One day I might actually finish it, but I'm not holding my breath!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 19, 1998 (13:09)", "body": "The Barker is tough going, I know. You're right about Emily not caring about what went on in London society -- though she may have enjoyed the tales which Charlotte told when she returned from her many trips there. I think the extent to which Charlotte loathed Branwell really does reflect her disappointment in his dissipation, the loss of a treasured partner, and the pain in seeing him freely act out what she could only suppress (love for a married person). Did Charlotte soften her views toward him after his death?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Thu, Feb 19, 1998 (21:03)", "body": "I'm still plowing on in Barker, but I've seen no sign of a significant change in her feelings except those recorded in a letter to Smith Williams shortly after his death: \"When the struggle was over-- and a marble calm began to succeed the last dread agony -- I felt as I had never felt before that there was peace and forgiveness for him in Heaven. All his errors -- to speak plainly -- all his vices seemed nothing to me in that moment; every wrong he had done, every pain he had caused, vanished; his sufferings only were remembered; the wrench to the natural affections only was felt... -- He is at rest -- and that comforts us all long before he quitted this world -- Life had not happiness for him.\" -- Quoted in Barker on p. 568; I don't know what she left out. I've just read Barker's account of Charlotte refusal of a marriage proposal from James Taylor -- a man for whom Charlotte felt physical repulsion. Barker suggests \"...what lay at the bottom of that aversion was deeply revealing. Small in stature, red-headed, with his 'determined, dreadful nose,' James Taylor reminded her irresistibly of Branwell. It says much about Chrlotte's relationship with her brother that this was the only occasion on which a resemblance to oner of her dead siblings did not predispose Charlotte in that person's favour but had the opposite effect.\" (p. 670) Barker's analysis isn't so hot here. I would read this mainly as evidence that Charlotte's feelings towards Branwell remained powerful. (No need to do a Freudian analysis, is there?) Not softened, but not lessened either."}, {"response": 32, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb 20, 1998 (15:50)", "body": "I think it's a stretch to say that Charlote rejected James Taylor merely because he had red hair. She had also heard disreputable things about his character at Smith Elder Publishing, and I think that's what swayed her more than his appearance."}, {"response": 33, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (18:59)", "body": "Nobody made that stretch. Taylor sounds like a piece of work in any case, and I'm sure she was much better off with Arthur. I finally finished Barker, all except skimming the footnotes. I really enjoyed it, once all's said & done. It made me want to re-read the novels, especially Villette!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 26, 1998 (13:42)", "body": "I really had a hard time getting through Barker, but then I'm not particularly interested in Patrick, Branwell, or Church rates in Haworth! I really liked CHARLOTTE BRONTE: A PASSIONATE LIFE and Rebecca Fraser's CHARLOTTE BRONTE AND HER FAMILY. Then again, my primary area of interest is Charlotte, whom Barker doesn't particulary like!"}, {"response": 35, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, Mar 26, 1998 (16:51)", "body": "HALLO, everyone! I somehow managed to lose this page on my computer (!!!!), but now I'm back . . I see there is some heavy discussions going on, concerning Dr. Barker's book, Branwell and Charlotte. Yes, I now remember that it was that very same book with its reference to the young Edmund, which put the idea of Branwell's being homosexual into my head. I still think it a possibility - or that he liked girls AND boys; Branwell seems to have been a fairly confused young man on the whole, so I suppose we will never know. What does stand out for me, is the fact that he is generally considered to have been extremely talented - which I think, frankly, is very far from the truth. I think he was indeed intelligent and creative, but quite a bit less so than his sisters. True, he could write two seperate letters, with both hands, and at the same time. Pretty impressive, but to me merely proof of great hand-eye coordination - I am sure most of us are able to write two letters simultaneously in our heads. He could also paint, but for a chap whose dad payed for extra lessons with a good artist, his work is VERY average in my opinion. I have only seen photos, but even judging from them, as an artist, it is very obvious why he did not make it. He lacks skill where it comes to proportion, colouring, his perspectives are mostly pretty bad - which boils dow to one thing: he could paint a little, but certainly did not have the talent to go far. Then there is his writing. I must confess, I have only read bits of his juvenalia, which also failed to impress, and I know that the ghastly letters he wrote to accompany works he sent for publication must have put the publishers off him; on the other hand, if his works were THAT good, they would have been published, regardless of the letters he wrote - after all, he was a man. Again it shows how unfairly women (and men) were treated in those days. Because he was the only male sibling, it was assumed by everyone, that he had to be the talented one in the family, putting unnecessary pressure on him, and in the end making him feel like a failure. If realistic things were expected of him from the beginning, I think he might have at least died with a bit of respect for himself. On the other hand his sisters were also mistreated. Too little was expected of them, which is a shame, because all three of them were VERY good draughtswomen. With the right education I am almost certain that they might have become artists as well as writers. And, again, because too little was expected of them, they lacked the neccessary self-esteem to persue their talents without holding back. As far as Dr. Barker's book is concerned: I think Charlotte is badly mistreated in it. Branding her 'manipulative' just because she got things done is very unfair, for example Brussels: not once did Barker consider the fact that, if Charlotte hadn't dragged Emily to Brussels against her will, Wuthering Heights might not even have existed today - no matter how Emily hated it - and I am sure she learned a great deal there. The book contains a great deal of very interesting information, but I don't think it should be considered the 'Bible' of Bront\ufffd biographies. We should never stop asking questions just because Dr. Barker had a pretty good go at answering them all!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Tue, Mar 31, 1998 (19:46)", "body": "Hi all. Riette, I basically agree with everything you've said, although I reserve some belief in Branwell's talents. I'll concede in advance, though, that it doesn't matter in the long run because he never produced anything great. If you compare Branwell's output with Charlotte's up to the time of The Professor, you'll find that they both wrote poetry that didn't quite scale the heights and stories that didn't quite grip by the throat. (Not that I've read all of the things they wrote; that's just my impression from the things I've read.) I think throughout his life Branwell displayed plenty of raw talent in his use of language, and a very vivid imagination. Up until 1845 he doesn't show any LESS talent than anyone in the family, with the exception of Emily who was already writing great poetry. I don't think Charlotte was ready to write Jane Eyre even a minute before she sat down to write it. I'm repeating myself, but to me the tragedy of Branwell Bronte is that he underwent a lifelong apprenticeship as a writer, just as his sisters did, but when the rest of the family got down to writing masterpieces he self- destructed instead. In the end it doesn't matter how good he might have been, because he didn't DO anything. & That, of course, is the moral of the story. My personal angle on this (other than your usual busload of projection and identification) is that I've known lots of talented people who just imploded. Branwell is like a stand-in or spokesman for all the \"mute Miltons\" I've known. Charlotte, of course, points the way out. I mean, EVERYTHING got her down, and she didn't permit ANY of it to stop her. The other major difference between Charlotte and Branwell, I think, is that she was honest enough with herself to learn from her own experience. She did finally figure out what it was she was feeling for M. Heger, and she eventually took responsibility for the misery that ensued her return from Brussells. Branwell didn't quit blaming Mrs. Robinson until he was on his deathbed, and yet the whole story of his \"affair\" with her seems to be such a red herring. He never took responsibility for his own experience, and I think alcohol and opium were his accessories in this. I recently read E.F. Bensen's book on Charlotte Bronte, and I think his analysis of Charlotte and Branwell is the best I've read. He likes Emily the best and Anne the least, and isn't so good on either of them. But with Charlotte and Branwell he's really good at adding up the evidence and drawing conclusions about character. A lot of the things Barker doesn't like about Charlotte are discussed helpfully and non-judgmentally in Bensen. Bensen thinks that Branwell wrote the opening chapters of Wuthering Heights, which I can't bring myself to believe. But I do agree with him that Charlotte took Branwell's downfall more personally than anyone else in the family, and judged him the most harshly in part because in some ways they were very alike. That's enough from me for now!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May  3, 1998 (15:41)", "body": "Hi there! Michael, you make some good points. I very much agree that Branwell had a pretty self-destructive streak, which was his ultimate ruin. Am I to believe, though, that you think his self-destructive habits had nothing to do with his level of intelligence? Why do you think he was so self-destructive - because he was simply a spineless loafer? Because he was intelligent, but lacked the guts to persue his talents? My opinion is that he thought himself more intelligent than he in fact was. I will compare i with art: do you ever go to exhibitions? If so, has it not struck you at times, how very good and how very bad different works by one artist can be? I have seen exhibitions here in Z\ufffdrich of a certain local artist, whose name I will obviously not reveal, as she is also a friend. She is quite well-known here, yet I often get the impression at her exhibitions that those works that turn out well, turn out well by sheer chance, not because she is a great artist - and she is wise enough to admit this hers lf. With Branwell I get the same impression. He had a certain amount of talent, and a few things he wrote/painted turned out pretty well, as pretty well goes. But he lacked consistency, which comes down to lack of that sparkling quality that makes a true and solid talent. If he was, as is your opinion, as intelligent as say, Charlotte (I think Emily was more intelligent than any of the others, and so it would be unfair to use her as a comparison), why did he ruin himself and she not? Charlotte had the intelligence to face up to her faults, and take, as you so wisely put it, responsibility for it. Did Branwell then not lack just those one or two peas not to be able to see his? I think so. He was a damned clever chap, don't misunderstand me, but he did lack the genius whi h two of his sisters possessed. I think Anne was cleverer than him too! (I'm sure the origin of 'Girl Power' lies with the Bront\ufffd sisters!!)"}, {"response": 38, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Thu, May  7, 1998 (20:19)", "body": "Riette, Well, to get straight to the point, it seems clear that Branwell was addicted to alcohol and drugs. In my opinion, addiction is not a sign of intelligence or lack or intelligence, it's simply a sign of addiction. So to blame him or judge him for not being able to get off the skid he was on is somewhat beside the point. I'd say that kicking self-destructive habits of that magnitude is a matter of grace rather than intelligence. It's hard to measure intelligence, and come to a conclusion that one of the Bronte siblings was smarter than another. I don't think Branwell was a particularly good painter, but his letters -- especially the \"naughty\" ones that almost nobody but Barker quotes at full length -- are very lively and, I think, funny. They remind me of Boswell's \"London Journal\" -- full of bragadoccio, a smart young man trying to figure out his place in the world. Boswell is maybe a good person to compare Branwell with. He wrote a few things when he was young -- none of which he is remembered for -- and spent a fair portion of his adult life drunk, committing adultery and taking brutal cures for venereal disease. He was wildly self-destructive, and barely managed to finish his masterpiece, \"Life of Johnson,\" inbetween drinking bouts. You could certainly accuse Boswell of being a fool, but you couldn't say he was lacking in intelligence. His habitual drinking didn't make him stupid, it just made him drunk. Branwell died young. Who knows what he would have made of his life if he'd lived long enough? He was a lot like Charlotte, but he never would have written a book like Jane Eyre. (I think it more likely he would have written a book like James Hogg's Confessions of Justified Sinner, but that's an idle speculation. E.F. Benson thinks he DID write the opening chapters of Wuthering Heights.) When Charlotte read Thackeray's lecture on Fielding, she was distraught that Thackeray didn't use the lecture to point a moral. She thought that men weren't properly warned of the dangers that lay in wait for them in the world, and it seems pretty likely that she was thinking of Branwell when she wrote this. She thought that Thackeray, like Fielding, was too \"soft\" on lapses. I would argue that Branwell wasn't the only person in the family with self-destructive tendencies (see Charlotte and her hopeless infatua- tions, Emily with her ideas on health care, Anne in her wrestling with fierce religious doctrines). They weren't exactly a sunny crowd! Branwell's indulgences, however, were truly incapacitating. I really don't know which of the Bronte's was smartest, but I think it's worth repeating that we wouldn't read the three Bronte women if they hadn't written what they did between 1845 and 1847, and those are the years that Branwell was most useless. Who knows who was smartest? Who knows what would have happened if the especially immature Branwell had ever had a chance to grow up? I hope I said something clear in all that. Love to hear your response!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May  8, 1998 (06:44)", "body": "Heck, Michael, the first time you replied to one of my Branwell theories, you thought I had 'hit the nail' on the head - now, every time I have a go at hitting the nail you have to move it, and make me feel like a school kid! Well, you have provoked me now, and I shall argue even harder! No, seriously, Emily has always been my favourite Bront\ufffd, but Branwell certainly makes fantastic speculative material. One just cannot pin him down, can one? Well, here goes my reply: First of all, and hopefully without causing offence; could it be a little, an ever so slight hint at male egotism I detect, when reading your comments - you defend Branwell's intelligence as only a man can! But I won't go into that yet again - I can take a point when it is made so clearly: you think Branwell was as bright as his sisters, and that's that. Fair's fair. I have to agree that I find the bits of writing I have seen from him pretty ammusing too, but I sure would not go so far as to imagine him becoming a kind of James Hogg, had he lived longer. 'Confessions of a justified sinner' is a brilliant book, brilliantly written, depressing, and damned evil, and in my opinion beyond Branwell's ability. I think more along the lines of Bernard Shaw. I think he would probably have made a pretty good playwright or something like that - I think he would have written some very good and dramatic or even very funny scripts, rather than produce novels. I think he would be capable of writing captivating and intelligent dialogue. But he didn't and that's a real shame. I'm just not sure about him - I'm not sure whether I think he lacked the intelligence or the drive or both. You know, we all have a dendency towards self-destruction, but I find it hard to comprehend when people actually manage to do just that. Especially people who have everything going for them, as he apparently did. I mean, he received a better and broader education than his sisters, had more opportunities, more privileges, everything - so why did he blow it? One would think that most intelligent human beings would stay away from drugs etc. simply for egotistical reasons - I mean it is a waste of good, well-functioning brain cells, isn't it? I know I tend to see alot of black and white, and little grey inbetween, but there you have it. Let's move on to other points, before I start calling poor Branwell 'stupid' again . . . I can already feel it coming on . . . I do think it unfair though, that you should compare his habits of self-destruction to those of his sisters. This time I'll start with Anne. NO NO NO! You are wrong! Her religious struggles had nothing to do with self-destruction, and all with guilt! I blame it on the Victorian age, as well as their upbringing. In those days all spiritual and bodily desires that didn't have anything to do with the Bible and God, were thought of as matters for hell and damnation. She was honest enough with her- self, to recognize her 'human' qualities, but she thought them wrong and sinful, and therefore struggled with religion. You get lots of people like that. They are brought up under a very strict religious regime, and start to think of themselves as doomed every time they experience the thrill of being human, with human desires (I mean, it sounds to me like hell is the dwelling place of normal people, rather than heaven!) But in the Victorian age women dared not to think of it that way, certainly not quiet, gentle Anne. Emily's eating habits were not self-destructive in my opinion either. They were as those of any woman: inconsistent. When she was happy, she ate, and when not, she didn't. And that's that. Charlotte's infatuation with Mr. Heger was only self-destructive in that she risked, and in the end did indeed end up with a broken heart. Had she lived today, I'm sure she would have persued her love for him, regardless of his wife, and might just have won his heart, instead of having to marry the Rev. Nichols, who probably satisfied her bodily needs, rather than those to do with intellect. Gee, I hope that doesn't sound too heartless - for the record: I don't generally approve of people wrecking other people's marriages! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 16, "subject": "Some Cool Books About the Brontes", "response_count": 16, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "panache", "date": "Thu, Aug  7, 1997 (11:08)", "body": "Can't recall the title exactly, but Daphne Dumaurier wrote something like THE INFERNAL WORLD OF BRANWELL BRONTE, which was interesting. I like Dumaurier's writing anyway, starting with REBECCA, FRENCHMAN'S CREEK, MY COUSIN RACHEL, etc."}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug  7, 1997 (11:32)", "body": "That's interesting -- I had never heard of that one. Another good one is BRONTE by Glyn Hughes. It's a '97 fictional bio of the whole family, & Hughes really seems to know his stuff!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (00:25)", "body": "Here's another one I'm reading now: CHARLOTTE BRONTE, THE SELF CONCEIVED by Helene Moglen. Moglen appraoches bio through analysis of Charlotte's works, including the juvenalia. I like what she has to say -- she's more of a theorist than one of these straight \"facticians\", like Barker."}, {"response": 4, "author": "rochelle", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (01:26)", "body": "One of the best books about Emily out there would have to be \"Emily Bronte: Heretic\" by Stevie Davis. It combines literary criticism and biographical interpretation, which I've sometimes found irritating in other post-structural studies (I'm a bit of an old-fashioned textual critic), but in this case it was wonderfully insightful. Edward Chitham wrote excellent biographies both Anne and Emily which are free of much of the inference of other books on the younger Brontes - as Davis said in her book, it is all too easy, in the absence of many facts about them, to bury Anne and Emily under a mountain of inference. I'm inclined to agree with Juliet Barker that there is so little factually known about Emily and Anne that it would be impossible to write a truely comprehensive biography about them."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (11:43)", "body": "That sounds great -- I will look for that on amazon.com! It must be incredibly hard to write a bio on Emily or Anne -- I think that Barker says their surviving correspondence would fill only half a dozen pages. Not a lot to go by!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, Dec 26, 1997 (17:19)", "body": "A German friend of mine has just told me about a book she's read, called, 'Gespr\ufffdch mit Emily' (Direct English Translation: 'A conversation with Emily') Does anyone know if this book exists under an English title? If not, I shall read the German version, and tell you whether it is good or bad!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan  6, 1998 (22:11)", "body": "Riette: I didn't see this book up at the Haworth parsonage or listed on any of the Internet book stores. If you read it in German, please let us know how it is!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (06:19)", "body": "Hello all! As I've just returned from a four week long holiday, I've not been able to read the above mentioned book yet, but hopefully that will change soon! I have something else to share with you though - can't believe I haven't mentioned it before. Last year my husband found me a real treasure in a shop that sells old books for next to nothing. It is a German translation of Jane Eyre, published during Charlotte's lifetime!!!! The book is in reasonable condition, heavily abridged, almost as if intended for a younger audience (or people so old they wouldn't survive the full version!), and consists of two volumes. The first volume is a first edition (1854), and the second a second edition (1855). He has written to various libraries (eg. British Libary, Library of Congress, Cambridge University Library, Munich) and NO ONE has it/has even heard of it! Also, the next German translation of JE, I discovered, was only published 30 years later! Amy, I'm sure you'd LOVE to see it! If ever you decide to come to Switzerland on holiday or whatever, let me know - per- haps I can show you it!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (14:58)", "body": "That sounds good! I actually saw Charlotte's original mss. of JANE EYRE up at the Parsonage at Haworth, which was quite a thrill! She had very few revisions, but of course we don't know what her first copies looked like. . ."}, {"response": 10, "author": "anniebat", "date": "Thu, Apr  9, 1998 (13:32)", "body": "I recently acquired a neat book from Barnes & Noble that consists of various descriptions of the Brontes, taken from contemporary accounts. I haven't got it with me today, to read the title of it, but it was published by the U of Iowa. THEN, at lunch, in the bookstore again, I found J. Barker's new book, The Brontes - A life in Letters,\" which is basically lots of letters back and forth among the sisters and everyone they wrote to, interspersed with informative background commentary by Ms. Barker. $35.00. It seems to contains most of the contemporary accounts published in the book mentioned above. I also acquired \"In the Footsteps of the Brontes,\" a very old book (1915) written by a lady who seemed to be someone very much like the people subscribing to this conference - a fan."}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Apr  9, 1998 (18:24)", "body": "One of my favorites is Margaret Smith's THE LETTERS OF CHARLOTTE BRONTE. She is a very intelligent editor & her footnotes are interesting & instructive."}, {"response": 12, "author": "BerthaMason", "date": "Sun, Nov  1, 1998 (08:35)", "body": "A really cool book about the Brontes is Pauline Clarke \"The Return of the Twelve\" also known as \"The Twelve and the Genii\". It is a children\ufffds book but it really is worth reading. Plot: A young boy discovers twelve wooden soldiers in the attic. They are alive! The boy has to help them to return to their real home, the Parsonage at Haworth where they had been brought to live by the Bronte children. A really charming book and I would be most eager to read the English original. Unfortunately it is out of print."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Heulwen", "date": "Wed, Nov  4, 1998 (20:02)", "body": "I really liked The Dark Quartet by Lynne Reid Banks"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Plaridel", "date": "Sat, May  5, 2001 (18:21)", "body": "One of my favorite books is The Bronte Story by Margaret Lane. This is Miss Lane's reconstruction of Mrs. Gaskell's biography of Charlotte Bronte."}, {"response": 15, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, May  6, 2001 (13:09)", "body": "What are the highlights of the book for you?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "Yammi", "date": "Sun, May  6, 2001 (15:40)", "body": "Need Help Finding 'A Life of Anne Bront\ufffd' by Edward Chitham (1991)!!!!! Please e-mail me: kyone1@hotmail.com bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 17, "subject": "The Spring as a community", "response_count": 8, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug  7, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "Terry, this whole \"community\" debate is raging full force over on the Republic of Pemberley (Jane Austen) Board as they struggle to define themselves. I -do- think that a cyber-community can evolve without our having to meet each other, BUT it's always a lot of fun when you meet people face-to-face. I met a lovely person from Australia & even from my own town of L.A. this way, & have never been disappointed. Maybe we can have a get together at some point in a place that's geographically convenient for most of us. Somewhere in the U.S. would probably be best. Do we have more west coasters or east coasters here?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Sun, Aug 10, 1997 (14:40)", "body": "Can't speak for everyone else, but I am an East Coaster who would love the opportunity to meet any of the folks here. I am conveniently about one hour from NYC and about 3 from Washington, DC. I would be perfectly thrilled to take a small trip to meet new friends. Lori"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug 10, 1997 (19:06)", "body": "Well, Lori, that puts you in the East, and me in L.A.; Terry is in Austin, TX, I think. How 'bout the rest of the posters? Maybe we could come up with a \"centralized\" location, like Chicago, or even Las Vegas (cause most flights there are fairly cheap). Let us know! Thanks."}, {"response": 4, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Aug 11, 1997 (10:02)", "body": "You're welcome to host something at the Spring's World Headquarters: http://www.spring.com/~house"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (07:29)", "body": "The Spring will be moving to a new backbone with a faster server over the next week. We'll try to keep any downtime to a minimum and I'll keep you all posted on our progress. I sent in the change of isp request to the Internic last night. Please bear with me if it takes a day or for our new ip addresses to propagate. Even though we notify the Internic of our new address, sometimes it takes a day or two for these addresses to disseminate thoughout the Internet. We're not going away! We're just moving to faster bandwidth and expanding our facilities."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (11:46)", "body": "That's great Terry! I already see a big performance increase from the old days. We should be smokin' with the next one!!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "donnal", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (13:54)", "body": "The increased speed will be welcomed, Terry. (And I'm glad I wasn't here in 'the old days':-). Thanks. While I'm here, may I ask a semi-hypothetical, semi-rhetorical question. How long do you expect the Bronte conference and the Drool conference to sustain The Spring as a community? There is also a little activity in Apps, but mostly irrelevant to my systems/needs. I'm not trying to be cynical here, but I'm having trouble finding a niche here."}, {"response": 8, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (16:49)", "body": "We need to grow beyond that. I'm flying out to meet with the Durand folks in a week or two a`to discuss community building issues. I'm working on it. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 18, "subject": "The Musical", "response_count": 11, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug 10, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "Lori -- great to have you! Is your JANE EYRE message board public? If so, would you mind sharing the address? I have a hard time thinking of JE as a musical, but then I would have shuddered at the thought of PHANTOM OF THE OPERA & LES MIZ, and I must say, I dearly loved them both. I just hope they don't make it too Grand Guignol or soppy. Do you have any idea who wrote the music/lyrics/book? I'm a -huge- musical fan (I honestly think I've seen every one of the MGM classics). Thanks for setting up a new topic! Amy"}, {"response": 2, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Sun, Aug 10, 1997 (23:01)", "body": "The composer is Paul Gordon -- and the music is BEAUTIFUL. you will cry when you hear Mr. R sing to Jane! It is unbelieveable! Being a huge musical theatre buff -- I am anticipating this in a big way! If you doubt me at all you must go to the web page and download the wavs! Lori"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 11, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "Lori -- visited the JE Musical web page yesterday! I will download some of the audio clips TODAY! This looks like a very professional production, & it's already gotten a rave from the NY Post. Since the trend in recent musicals is to deal with dark and/or Gothic material (TITANIC, PHANTOM, LES MIZ, SWEENY TOOD, etc.) I guess it's not too much of a stretch to musicalize JE. As long as we don't get WUTHERING HEIGHTS: THE MUSICAL. That one is just -too much- of a stretch, even for me! Are you able to supply us with a URL for your Jane Eyre Message Board? Or do you not want it open to the public? Thanks! =="}, {"response": 4, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Mon, Aug 11, 1997 (12:43)", "body": "Sorry! My message board is at http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb10220 All are welcome. It is small in comparison to this, but we are a friendly crowd. :o) Lori"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Aug 11, 1997 (15:02)", "body": "Lori, feel free to add a link from there to here."}, {"response": 6, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Wed, Aug 13, 1997 (14:43)", "body": "Interesting news from the world of \"Jane Eyre\" the musical. I have recently taken on a project with Paul Gordon (the composer) -- to design a newsletter for the show. It should be very interesting and it will allow me to keep you all informed of the lastest informaton on the show. Due to the time constraints of this BIG project, I will be advising everyone at my Jane Eyre message board to come here instead. There is much more information available here anyway. Lori"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 13, 1997 (16:56)", "body": "Thanks Lori! I appreciate that."}, {"response": 8, "author": "fen", "date": "Sat, Aug 16, 1997 (12:28)", "body": "http://www.musicals.demon.co.uk/htssongs.html It has been done- see the site above for WH musical. (Nice place you've got here, but how about some graphics at the topic of the bronte main page?)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 16, 1997 (17:40)", "body": "Jake: I am HTML-challenged! I do have some great pics of the Brontes -- if I e-mail a couple to you, could you work the magic of placing them on the Board? Thanks! BTW, I can't -believe- they made WH into a musical. Heathcliff singing! But again, I never would have thought that Victor Hugo wrote material that would translate well to a musical, so there you go."}, {"response": 10, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Fri, Aug 29, 1997 (13:29)", "body": "Just a little advertising here (hope nobody minds!) :o) My marketing company is designing and distributing a quarterly newsletter dedicated to the broadway bound musical - \"Jane Eyre.\" If you would like to receive this publication, please send your postal address (not e-mail) to me at SpotlghtLS@aol.com The newsletter, \"Dear Reader: The Jane Eyre Quarterly\" is full of interesting information about the show, the actors, the music and the story itself. In fact, the first edition will feature an interview with the three most recent men to play Rochester on film. Hope you will subscribe and enjoy it! Lori"}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 29, 1997 (17:16)", "body": "I got some more info. on \"Heathcliff\" the WH musical. It starred (Sir) Cliff Richard as Heathcliff, with lyrics by Tim Rice. I don't believe it's playing anymore -- seems like it made the rounds in England in 1996. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 19, "subject": "Jane Eyre Sequels?", "response_count": 11, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug 10, 1997 (18:13)", "body": "This isn't really a sequel, it's sort of a \"prequel,\" but check out WIDE SARGOSSO SEA, which I believe was a novel before New Line made it into a movie. It tells the story of poor mad Bertha Mason in her Jamaica days. You might want to check for this on: http://www.amazon.com/ They seem to have everything! I've never heard of a formal sequel being written though. Does anyone out there know if there is one? Thanks."}, {"response": 2, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (19:45)", "body": "Only one I know about is Wide Sargasso Sea which is such an extraordinary book. It's by Jean Rhys, who wrote these devastating and darkly funny books in the 20's and 30's (Good Morning, Midnight is my favorite). She was Ford Maddox Ford's girlfriend in Paris in the 20's (at one point living with Ford AND Ford's wife). Then she sort of bobbed around boozily for the next 30 years, publishing the odd story and having occasional scrapes with the law. Wide Sargasso Sea, which came out in the 60's, was her comeback.\" It's very different from her other books, except that they're also gorgeously written. She was originally from the West Indies herself, and obviously felt an affinity for \"the mad woman in the attic.\" I've never read a book about her, so I may be repeating legends, but that's what I've heard."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (12:32)", "body": "Thanks Michael, that's very interesting. What a life! Sounds like a character in a a Hemingway novel. Nice that she was able to make a comeback though. . ."}, {"response": 4, "author": "MSchadler", "date": "Sat, Feb 21, 1998 (09:09)", "body": "Didn't know if this had come up in the past few months, but there is indeed a sequel to Jane Eyre out and about now. It's called, \"Mrs. Rochester,\" and its only available through British book sellers. Written by a hack named Bailey, I have been told by reliable sources that is torturous to read through. That said, I am still waiting for a complete summary before I decide whether or not to buy it. As I have more details on the plot, I will be sure to post them. Lori"}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb 23, 1998 (13:39)", "body": "Yeah, most of the sequels to PRIDE & PREJUDICE were dreadful beyond words. Unless these people can write like Jane Austen or Charlotte Bronte, they shouldn't have the chutzpah to turn this stuff out. That they do continually amazes me!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "ayelet", "date": "Tue, Mar 31, 1998 (23:19)", "body": "Chutzpah! Nice hebrew, where did you learn it? And yes, I agree, Austen sequals are horrid (ayoomin!)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Apr  1, 1998 (18:28)", "body": "Chutzpah is actually a Yiddish word. I don't know a lot of Yiddish, but that one comes in handy. I'm actually kind of surprised that no one's written a sequel to either JANE EYRE or WUTHERING HEIGHTS, considering the enduring popularity of both works. But maybe this is something to be grateful for. . ."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Molina", "date": "Sat, Apr  4, 1998 (23:16)", "body": "Actually, there is a sequel to Wuthering Heights. I won't read it, b/c Wuthering Heights is sacred to my memory. It's called Heathcliff (I think), and it's about what he did in the 3 years he was away from the Heights. It involves Mr. Lockwood meeting Charlotte Bronte on a train (!), and giving her a letter that Nelly Dean gave to him. Mrs. Dean wants to know if she did the right thing. It's a letter that Heathcliff wrote Cathy when he came back, asking her to run away w/ him, and detailing what he did in the 3 years he was gone. Nelly never gave her the letter. Anyway, you can see what a mess this book probably is from the framing story."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Sun, Apr  5, 1998 (05:09)", "body": "Hi Anne If you (or anyone) is interested in Bronte sequels then there is an ongoing discussion on the Bronte mailing list about this very topic with the names of some sequels Mamie"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Molina", "date": "Sun, Apr  5, 1998 (10:57)", "body": "I'm not interested in sequels particularly, but how do I get on the mailing list? I've tried in the past, and found the directions particularly con- fusing."}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Apr  9, 1998 (17:29)", "body": "Hi Mamie! Thanks for stopping by this board. It's nice to have members of the Bronte list come by. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 2, "subject": "WELCOME, BRONTE FANS!", "response_count": 33, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Johanna", "date": "Thu, Jul 10, 1997 (22:54)", "body": "Well, hello! Hooray! Glad it's up! Johanna"}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "Johanna -- great to see you here! Hope to see you posting frequently to this and to our long-awaited Medieval Board! Yippee!!!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "You can count me in as well...HI!!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (20:59)", "body": "Hi Luisa, and welcome! Please feel free to create as many new topics here as you like by hitting the button CREATE NEW TOPIC. Are you a P&P-er, or a Bronte lister? Amy 2"}, {"response": 5, "author": "srshumway", "date": "Sat, Jul 12, 1997 (17:48)", "body": "Greetings, everyone! I'm a Bronte lister, popping in at the invitation of Amy 2, and looking forward to this board. Anyone else from the Bronte list out there? Thanks to Terry and Amy for creating this forum. Suzanne"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Jul 13, 1997 (20:30)", "body": "Suzanne: Please don't be shy about creating your own topics! Just hit the CREATE NEW TOPIC button. I'd love for this Board to become a forum for serious literary criticism, biographical info., as well as a discussion of the various Bronte film adaptations. I just ordered & received the giant Barker LIFE OF THE BRONTES (1000 pgs +) so I'm gearing myself up to read..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "sandy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 16, 1997 (19:00)", "body": "Amy: Congratulations! I know you labored hard to get this going. I look foward to wonderful things here!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 16, 1997 (19:31)", "body": "Sandy, thanks for coming! I look forward to seeing your posts."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Anna", "date": "Sat, Jul 19, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "Hi all, I'm here as an overflow from the Republic of Pemberley; I love JA dearly and P&P especially, but I've said everything I can about it for the moment. My acquaintance with the Brontes is slight; would anyone here care to make a suggestion as to where I should go after Jane Eyre?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Jul 20, 1997 (20:22)", "body": "Anna, great to see you here! After you finish Jane Eyre, I would suggest VILETTE, which is Charlotte's last novel, and superb; I also really AGNES GREY by Anne -- I confess I like it better than TENANT OF WILDFELL HALL. I haven't read SHIRLEY yet, but can heartily recommend WUTHERING HEIGHTS, which is just amazing. Really, nothing that the three sisters wrote is bad. And their poetry is awesome as well!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Anna", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (00:08)", "body": "thanks Amy; my local bookshop has Villete, so I'll try that next..."}, {"response": 12, "author": "panache", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (00:33)", "body": "Anna- I loved VILLETE when I first read it, years ago, the more so because it was so close to what happened to Charlotte in Belgium with Monsieur Heger...hope you like it,too."}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (00:18)", "body": "Here's my shocking confession -- I have not yet read VILLETTE. It's on my list right after SHIRLEY, though. SHIRLEY is generally thought to be less successful, but Shirley is modeled on Emily, so I'm anxious to read it. I just did an Anne restrospective by re-reading AGNES GREY & WILDFELL HALL. I'm probably in the minority, but I prefer the former. It isn't as exciting, but it strikes me as more true. And closer to Anne's own life, instead of Branwell's..."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (22:49)", "body": "I loaned a friend my copy of Villete recently. I only vaguely remember it, am planning to reread it. Has anyone read \"The Professor\". I began but did not finish it. I think that was due to Bronte overload. (Kinda like Austen overload!!) Have not read AGNES GREY, or SHIRLEY but I swear AG was calling to me from the library shelves today. As I was looking for candy - Roberta Gellis - I now make a confession -I could not check out the book, it has a big red heart on the spine - Romance Novel - too embara sed!!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 24, 1997 (00:20)", "body": "No one will ever know, Anne! THE PROFESSOR is considered the weakest of Charlotte's works, and wasn't published until after her death. I really like AGNES GREY -- it's quiet, but it's still amazing in terms of Anne's honesty about being a governess. WILDFELL HALL is great too -- really compelling."}, {"response": 16, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (14:25)", "body": "Oh I know!! Im having fun reading Georgette Heyer right now, she just does not have a sticker on the spine!!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "hummie", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (18:50)", "body": "i love emily bronte's work tremendously. i've read wuthering heights at least 10 times in my life. i love heathcliff."}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "Great! Have you read any of her poetry? Many think she is the greatest woman poet in the English language. I'll take her over Elizabeth Barrett Browning any day, I'm sorry to say...."}, {"response": 19, "author": "rochelle", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (01:49)", "body": "Hi! Great to have a Bronte forum - congratulations on the work that went into setting this up. I'm a very long time admirer of all the Brontes, in particular Emily - who I still believe is the Sphinx of English literature."}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (11:31)", "body": "She sure is, isn't she? It's so hard to find out anything about her, other than that she was reticent, loved nature, was incredibly unsocial & had a will of iron. Her poetry is just so beautiful & powerful -- isn't it amazing to think that Charlotte was the only one who realized this during her lifetime?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, Dec 25, 1997 (09:18)", "body": "Thank God for Charlotte! Just think, without her pushiness Emily would have been lost to the world! I find it rather tragic that someone as talented as she was, could be so utterly unable to communicate - do you know what I mean?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan  6, 1998 (19:51)", "body": "Yes, I do. I don't know if this frustrated her or not -- probably not, since she didn't seem to care what anyone else thought. The more I read about her, the more I get the sense of an anti-social genius. Anyone else have a similar impression?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "juliet", "date": "Mon, Aug 30, 1999 (13:58)", "body": "Hi everyone, I've just discovered this site, and it looks fantastic! So many Bronte enthusiasts together in the one place - a brilliant idea! I am a Bronte fanatic, and am studying them at uni...I believe Wuthering Heights is the greatest of their works, while I find Charlotte incredibly brave and fascinating. I'm planning a trip to the Parsonage - has anyone been there? What's it like to visit?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Aug 30, 1999 (16:15)", "body": "I haven't been there but welcome juliet!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Scuppers", "date": "Fri, Sep 17, 1999 (12:01)", "body": "Hi A completely new person to this page I am a Bronte nut - what I would like to know is has anyone yet read \"The Crimes of Charlotte Bronte\" by James Tully and what are peoples thoughts on Arthur Nicholls being a serial killer responsible for the deaths of the Bronte family?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Irishprincess", "date": "Fri, Sep 17, 1999 (12:50)", "body": "Hello, Lara! I'm new here myself--I was invited over by the Colin Firth people (I'm a big fan too.) I have read \"The Crimes of Charlotte Bronte\" as well, and I loved it! I was so engrossed that I couldn't even stop reading long enough to eat dinner--I brought the book to the table with me! I was always a little curious about why all of the Bronte siblings had died in such close proximity to one another, and under such not-easily-explainable circumstances. Judging by what is presented in that book, I ould believe that Arthur Nicholls killed all of them, but since it is a novel, I don't want to say for certain if I believe it. But, James Tully based it on some facts he had found..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Sep 17, 1999 (13:12)", "body": "What did Tully find? Welcome by the way!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Irishprincess", "date": "Fri, Sep 17, 1999 (17:40)", "body": "Thank you for making me feel welcome! I'm not exactly certain what was fact and what was fiction in \"The Crimes of Charlotte Bronte,\" but in the introduction it says that he started doing reseach on the Brontes for a book or something about their lives, and it turned out that he came up with some very shocking things which seemed to point to the possibility that Arthur Nicholls killed all of the Bronte siblings and possibly the father too. I guess he just found a bit of information here, a bit there, and added his own fictional stuff to make a whole story. And now I've gone and ruined the whole book for you! (Not really.)"}, {"response": 29, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (11:01)", "body": "I cannot imagine this book having anything to do with the truth. Sounds to me like this James Tully who calls himself an author is using the Bront\ufffds to get a ride into the world of Bront\ufffd scholarship; sensationalism. But it must be said that the idea of Arthur Nichols being a serial killer (ha-ha!!!) is higly original!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "Brontefan", "date": "Mon, Sep  2, 2002 (22:43)", "body": "This book appears to be an incredible fiction...playing off on the Bronte name for sales."}, {"response": 31, "author": "joy1", "date": "Fri, Oct  4, 2002 (19:30)", "body": "Hello all, I'm producing a play I wrote about Charlotte Bronte, it's opening in Los Angeles next week. I just heard about a juvenilia story by Branwell called \"Charles Wenworth's Visit to Verdopolis\" which is thought to be a fictionalized treatment of his (disastrous) visit to London. Can anyone help me find this story? Any research suggestions? A simple google search yielded nothing. I'd appreciate any leads. Nice to meet all of you. Thanks, Joy"}, {"response": 32, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Oct  4, 2002 (19:35)", "body": "Hi Joy, how would you like to take over as host of hte Bronte conference? We're looking for one!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "bee", "date": "Fri, Apr 23, 2004 (17:25)", "body": "actually, about james tully, naturally any bronte fans are repelled from his ideas but you should read the book anyway. It's quite interesting. It might be a bit disillusioning alright but it is possible what he's writing is bunkum or made to sound very impressive when it could be based on weak, disputable evidence. Ifthe manuscript he uses as evidence is genuine, the servant who wrote it might not have been telling the truth. She may have had a severe dislike of Charlotte for some reason...possibly becuase of Nicholls, who she was in love with too! Who knows? bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 20, "subject": "Rules Of This Board", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 21, "subject": "TIMOTHY (The Man, The Myth, The Legend) ;o)", "response_count": 8, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 12, 1997 (16:00)", "body": "Yes, he certainly does deserve his own Thread/Shrine, doesn't he? I have to say, I loved his performance when he was -very- young in LION IN WINTER; my fave is of course his Rochester in JE; thought he did a very creditable job as the Errol Flynn bad guy in ROCKETEER, and I did catch his Heathcliff in WH -- also quite good. I must say, I didn't like his James Bond, though -- he seemed very stiff & humourless in the role. But maybe this just wasn't his cup o' tea. Does anyone know if FLORENCE NIGHTENGALE is available on videotape? Thanks!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Tue, Aug 12, 1997 (21:06)", "body": "BTW Amy -- I found out today that TD is 51 -- his birthday is March 8, 1946. The way I figure it, he was actually the same age as Rochester when he played him in '83! Neat huh? Also, it means that while he is 24 years older than me, in \"Jane\" terms its really not that bad! He was 18 years older than her, right! I have more interesting tid-bits, but I will save them for later. I actually have the original press kit from \"Scarlett\" with lots of hunky photos in it. I'm going to try to download them! Lori"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 13, 1997 (10:32)", "body": "I took a pass on SCARLETT, since the book was so bad (I'm a major GWTW fan). How did Our Tim do as Rhett? It seems like a pretty good casting choice. Yup, the age difference bet. Jane & Rochester was 18 years (when she first arrived @ Thornfield). Let me ask you this -- what do you think makes his performance so great in JE? To me, it's his sardonic smile; passion; intelligence & humour; and that luxurious black hair! As I've said before, when he takes Jane's hand after the fire in his bedroom and won't let go.....look out!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Wed, Aug 13, 1997 (12:12)", "body": "You've hit the nail on the head Amy. Its definetly his passion, both in when he tries to hide it and when its in full view. My first film Rochester of course was Welles, and frankly he just scared me too much! TD's performace worked so well because you could see beyone that stern temperment. Its all in the facial features - smile, eyes, etc. And yes, that black hair is GORGEOUS! As for \"Scarlett\" -- I have a tendency to read and see sequels even though I know I will be terribly disappointed. \"Scarlett\" the book was \"ok.\" \"Scarlett\" the movie was HORRIBLE. TD was the only saving grace, he played Rhett Butler to the hilt -- and with some very interesting nuances. Ripley (the author) has Rhett go through some new emotions, and I doubt there are many actors who could have pulled that off. Clark Gable is a tough man to follow! (BTW - GWTW is one of my all time favorites as well -- book and movie!) Lori"}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 13, 1997 (15:58)", "body": "I confess I've read GWTW about 20 times, & my sister & I can literally recite the dialog along with the film! I'm glad that TD came off well in SCARLETT. I had my fears when I heard it was a Robert Halmi Production, because his stuff is usually not too great (like the recent ODYSSEY with Armand Assante). Some things are better left alone, esp. classics."}, {"response": 6, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Wed, Aug 13, 1997 (23:03)", "body": "News for the Timothy Obsessed... he had a child! On August 7th he had a baby boy (Alexander)with his \"partner.\" Isn't that just like our Rochester? To have a child at age 51!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "sandy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 14, 1997 (10:23)", "body": "Who is this \"partner\"?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 14, 1997 (10:24)", "body": "I was reading his Web Page yesterday, & it seems he also supports liberal politics. Go Tim! I was reading the synopsis of an upcoming film of his dealing with the IRA. Do you know what part he plays? It sounded pretty intense. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 22, "subject": "Amy's Trip to Haworth", "response_count": 34, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "kkillian", "date": "Tue, Aug 19, 1997 (19:59)", "body": "What involves being a hostess? How long will you be gone? I am so jealous!!! Have fun."}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 19, 1997 (20:14)", "body": "Karen: You just have to be able to serve drinks & smile! Seriously, just someone to monitor the Board & make sure none of the posters go out of bounds, propriety-wise. This is so far the most civil Board I've been involved in, so I don't anticipate any problems. As the Narrator says in Disney's HAUNTED MANSION: \"Any volunteers?\""}, {"response": 3, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 19, 1997 (21:43)", "body": "Here's a little guideline on hosting: Help for Forum Hosts Why are you a Forum Host? You may have chosen this job, but more likely it came looking for you. You may be an online conferencing veteran, but chances are this stuff is as new to you as your potential audience. That's OK...this guide will provide the needed tips to maintain a comfortable and stimulating environment for your forum participants. The duties of the host can vary from forum maintenance (creating/deleting topics, modifying user lists) to initiating new discussion threads to answering participant email. Whatever the task, keep in mind that the main role of a forum host is to encourage and nurture creative interaction between people with divergent views of a common goal. Hostly Powers Part of the host job description includes some basic housekeeping skills for keeping a tidy and efficient forum by maintaining topics. As a host, certain powers and responsibilties are yours alone. A forum host can perform the following: Create the first topic in the forum (no one else can) Kill any topic in the forum Retire any topic in the forum Modify the forum header Modify the welcome message (displayed when joining for the first time) Modify the bulletin message (displayed once for everyone when changed) Modify the private forum user participation list (ulist) Hostly Duties A truly effective host should be motivated to do more than just the basic janitorial functions. The process of online conferencing can be a stimulating one if care and attention are paid to creating a special place for people to congregate. A conscientious forum host should: Monitor topic discussions Maintain important discussion threads Introduce new discussion threads Archive/kill dead topics Respond to participant comments/suggestions Most of all and most important: A host(ess) should have fun!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Tue, Aug 19, 1997 (21:46)", "body": "Amy, If Karen doesn't want the job, I'll certainly fill in for you while your gone. Let me know. Lori"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 19, 1997 (21:58)", "body": "By the way, there lots of other conferences on the Spring looking for host(ess)s if anyones interested (eg. books, movies, tv, and more),"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (00:18)", "body": "Lori, you're IT!!! If Karen would like, she can act as fabulous co-host. I have every confidence this board will be kept in tip-top shape in my absence. Especially with Terry around. As I said, everyone has been just great in the courtesy department -- the best I've seen so far on the Net. The general inclinations of people who love literature seems to be to want to kill one another (at least on the e-mail lists) & I'm trying to figure out why. But we are a shining example of what can go RIGHT on the Web! Thanks again."}, {"response": 7, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (09:28)", "body": "I'm thrilled to provide the service. I'm so excited for you! I am going to Paris in December and I am hoping to take the Chunnel over to England while I'm there. Don't know if I'll get very much father than London though! :o) Lori"}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (11:53)", "body": "Ah Paris! I wish I had time to go. I could spend about a week in the Louvre & on the Place de la Concorde! I may also be combining my Haworth trip with a jaunt to Munich, since my company may send me to check up on our German office. So Lori, please prepare to play Vanna for about 12 days. Thanks so much! If I can, I'll try to net in from England for \"on the spot\" reports. amy"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 26, 1997 (12:46)", "body": "Well gang, this is my last post to the Board for now -- I am catching a plane for Haworth in just a few hours!!! Lori, thanks for agreeing to play Gracious Hostess in my absence. I intend to come back laden with pictures, videos, videos of the new JE & WILDFELL HALL, books -- you name it!! I will try to post some of my pictures to this board too. Have fun while I'm gone, & I will talk to you all again after 10/10 (unless I can wire in from my company's Munich office earlier). Elena, I will think of y u when I visit Emily's grave. Farewell!!!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Oct  7, 1997 (07:35)", "body": "Hi -- Amy here, posting from my company's office in Munich! Well, I have come & gone from Haworth, & it was truly incredible! I saw the Parsonage; the Church where Charlotte & Emily are buried; Anne's grave at Scarborough; what's left of Cowan Bridge & the Church the girls were forced to trudge 4 miles to every Sunday; Roe-Head, which is now a school for the disabled; and the Red House in Gomersal, where Mary Taylor lived. Of course, I took a million pictures, & I hope to post them to the Board when I et back to the States next week. I was most impressed with the Parsonage, which has been preserved in a beautiful state, AND: I GOT TO SEE THE ORIGINAL MSS. OF JANE EYRE, which happened to be on exhibition there. The page was turned to Rochester's proposal, and though the light was dim to protect the fragile mss., I read -every word.- ALSO, the original of Mrs. Gaskell's LIFE was in the same room, so this was absolutely the highlight for me. Elena, I did say 'hello' to Emily for you, on the moors & at her grave. I will report more at length when I get back! Amy in Munich"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Oct 13, 1997 (23:01)", "body": "Amy, thank you. That really means a lot to me. While I enjoy literature and many writers, I try never to fall into the trap of confusing the writer and their work. My favorite poet (or at least one I love as much as Emily, Emily Dickenson and Christina Rosetti) is A E Housman. But while I love and admire his work, I don't particularly like Housman as a person, however highly I regard his poetry. There are many writers I am curious about, even fascinated by, but it is their work that entrances me, not they themselves. Emily is different. I'm not a hero worshipper. I don't seek to submerge myself in idealised personalities, either historical or contemporary. But there is in her very nature, in the brief but marked impression she left on the few that knew her, that inspires my admiration in the most profound degree. The idea I have formed of her has had as much impact on my mind as WH has. Someone who was so proudly defiant of convention, so courageous, and of such personal integrity. \"I wish to be as God made me\". \"No coward soul is mine\". This, combined with extraordinary vision and ability, still amazes me. Stevie Davies said that people had a tendency to imagine that they were in \"love\" with Emily - the lack of material and her youthful death have made her susceptible to people's fantasies. More than that, she said people tended to make the strage remark \"sometimes I think I am Emily Bronte\". Davies herself does not feel that she identifies with and understands Emily as others feel they do - as she puts it, \"she eludes me\". This is after having written several books on Emily. I think Emily always eludes in the end. I hope this is not too effusive. But thank you once more, Amy. I hope this gives you some impression of what it means to me to have someone stand at her grave and give me a thought."}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Oct 14, 1997 (18:33)", "body": "Certainly, Elena. I have the same warmth of feeling around Charlotte. I feel that I relate to her, I understand her, & I will defend her to the best of my ability. I recognize that she was a flawed human being, but I think she did the best she could under the trying circumstances of her life. And I DO think that through it all, she tried to maintained a sense of humour despite her high-strung nature. It meant a great deal to me to see the original of JANE EYRE & the grave where Charlotte & Emily are uried."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Alexandra", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (09:44)", "body": "I'm glad that you enjoyed your trip to Haworth...I went for the second time at the end of August. I managed to drag my boyfriend round the Bronte Parsonage and he ( for someone who hates all period writing ) really enjoyed it. I love Haworth...you really begin to see where some of their inspiration comes from. It is such an atmospheric place!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (12:22)", "body": "Yes, the moors in back of the Parsonage are just amazing, esp. in September when the heather is still in bloom! They've really done a fine job of preserving the Parsonage in period condition, down to finding the original dining room table where the great novels were written; displaying Charlotte's clothing, spectacles, & wedding veil; Emily & Anne's wonderful drawings of their pets, etc. I was especially thrilled that they were displaying the original Mss. of JANE EYRE & Mrs. Gaskell's LIFE while I was here!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (22:56)", "body": "I haven't asked yet - did you get to Top Withens? Alexandra, have you been there?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Oct 22, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Elena: I got as far as the Meeting of the Waters. I couldn't make it to Top Withins, because I had broken my ankle inMay & it wasn't up to the trip. The other places I saw while in Yorkshire were: Cowan Bridge. Basis for the infamous Lowood School in JE. The only thing left is a single structure -- Tim & I walked the 2 miles to the church where Carus Wilson preached & the girls were forced to go every Sunday -- it was a narrow, tortuous path & must have been hellish in bad weather. We also went to Roe Head in Mirfield, which looks -exactly- as it did in Charlotte's drawings! It hasn't changed at all. A nice Security Guard let us inside -- it's now a school for disabled children. Very Victorian! Went To Scarborough to visit St. Mary's Church and Anne's grave -- it's beautifully kept up, with beds of flowers planted on the plot; the Bronte Society does this, & leaves sprigs of heather (Anne's favorite) there as well. Visited the Red House in Gomersal, Mary Taylor's home which now houses a Museum; and of course went to the Parsonage twice -- they've now bought the original parlour dining room table where the Brontes actually composed their novels. The other articles that impressed me were Charlotte's dresses (she was -very- small); her spectacles; wedding veil; and the wonderful drawnings of Keeper & Flossy by Anne & Emily. The most amazing thing here was of course the presence of the original Mss.s of both JANE EYRE & Mrs. Gaskell's LIFE. Wow! I paid my respects to Charlotte, Emily & c. at the Haworth Church - they are all buried under the church aisle with just 2 simple memorial plaques on the ground for Charlotte & for Emily. I do have pictures of all these sites & a scanner -- if someone can tell me HOW to post them to this site, I will be more than happy to do so!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (20:32)", "body": "It always struck me that Emily would have so hated to be buried there, even if it was with her family. She resisted conventional religion so fiercely, even refusing to teach in Sunday school. Then, finally, she was shut in forever."}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (21:22)", "body": "It is pretty grim, I have to say, compared to Anne's grave, which is planted with beautiful flowers & overlooks the sea in Scarborough. Still, I like to think that Emily & Charlotte should be together, despite their differences..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Oct 29, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "Anne got away, at least. But how sad to be so far from her sisters. And Emily? How does it run...\"They may bury me six feet deep, and throw the church down over me, but I won't rest until you are beseide me...I never will.\" Along those lines anyway. Amy, is there a statue of the Bronte sisters at Haworth? I seem to remember seeing one in the background during an interview on a Program about them. The three of them, slightly modernistic, very rounded forms?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Oct 29, 1997 (12:00)", "body": "Yes, Elena, there is, & I have to say, it's rather ugly -- I didn't like it at all. Charlotte looks nothing like herself & Anne is in a strange position. Only Emily kind of looks like Emily... I forgot to mention some other Bronte sights I saw!! I saw Branwell's original \"Pillar Portrait\" of the sisters at the National Portrait Gallery, along with the fragment painting of Emily; and I saw the Bronte's birthplace in Thornton, which is very hard to find, let me tell you!! I think the only substantial thing I missed was Rydings, Ellen Nussey's place, but you can't do it all in a week. All things considered, I'm glad I got to see as much as I did!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Mick1", "date": "Fri, Oct 31, 1997 (12:23)", "body": "Amy, did you get to Thorp Green?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Oct 31, 1997 (12:36)", "body": "Mick: I did!!! As you of course know, there's not too much left of the original house -- we spent most of our time in the church, which is in an apalling state -- they're in the process of trying to raise money to restore it. I was really struck by the sight of the bridge which Anne drew so wonderfully. All in all, I was impressed with the grandeur of the place -- I hadn't realized that the Robinsons were quite so rich -- very Pemberley-like!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Sun, Mar 22, 1998 (11:25)", "body": "Hi Amy I've read the responses to your visit to Haworth. Your whole trip sounds like a lot of fun. (No-one has said anything since last october.) Well, I went to the parsonage yesterday. The JE mss wasn't there and they couldn't tell me whether or not it will be on display at the British library. I suspect the joy of seeing it at the parsonage is quite different to seeing it at a library. Still, I had a few \"moments\" at the parsonage. I was rushed out at the end having got there quite late in the day. I'm sure I'll go back very soon. I saw some diary books belonging to Anne and Emily. What fun they are to read. No-one on the Bronte mailing list could tell me if they are in print at all. I would like to read them if possible. Can you help? Mamie PS did you get to Oakwell Hall when you were here?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar 23, 1998 (12:58)", "body": "Dear Mamie: All of the excerpts from Anne & Emily's diary papers are reprinted in MARGARET SMITH'S LETTERS OF CHARLOTTE BRONTE, and I'm sure they're in the new Juliet Barker LETTERS volumnes as well. Sadly, there really aren't very many of them, since they were written on (I believe) Emily's birthday every 4 years & were not started until quite late. . . I didn't make it to Oakwell Hall, but hit a lot of the Bronte sites: Cowan Bridge (the infamous Lowood from JE), Mary Taylor's Red House in Gomersal, Roe Head school, Thorp Green, & the Parsonage & Church of course. Did you get a chance to walk across the moors? I was there just as the last heather was blooming purple, but I couldn't walk that far, because I was recovering from a broken leg!! amy"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Mon, Mar 23, 1998 (14:48)", "body": "Hi Amy A couple of weeks ago I and some friends walked across the moors from Hebden Bridge to Haworth. It was a distance of 15 miles and we had wonderful weather (unlike west yorks at this time of year!!). We dropped down onto Haworth moors arriving at Top Withens from the opposite direction. A group of rowdy teenagers was there but we stopped a little further down, I think at the site of middle withins. I walked to Top Withins from the parsonage last Xmas on a cold but sunny day when there was snow on the ground. There was no-one around and for some reason I got a little spooked!! As I arrived at Top Withins the weather changed and suddenly got much colder. The sky turned very grey, it had been quite bright before that. When I saw the film (Wuthering Heights - the one with Juliet Binoche and Ralph Fiennes) I was reminded of this. Do you know the scene I mean? Very Strange Indeed. Mamie PS Thanks for the info on the diary books. Hope your leg mended OK. Do you have any plans for coming over again?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar 25, 1998 (14:43)", "body": "Dear Mamie: I couldn't make it to Top Withins from the Parsonage because of my leg. Thanks, it has all healed now and I am OK! I'm sure I will be in England again this year, since my husband is English! I'd love to revisit the Parsonage, since he & I got engaged at Haworth! amy =="}, {"response": 27, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Thu, Mar 26, 1998 (14:46)", "body": "Hi Amy I think that is so romantic. Is he as interested in the Brontes as you are? Mamie"}, {"response": 28, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Apr  2, 1998 (12:31)", "body": "Oh yes. My Tim is a big Anne fan, and \"my\" Bronte is Charlotte. We are able to co-exist peacefully, though. . ."}, {"response": 29, "author": "anniebat", "date": "Thu, Apr  9, 1998 (11:26)", "body": "I was just visiting a web page for Thornton and the regency row home where Patrick and Maria Bronte lived before moving on to Haworth. It will be open to visitors on Saturday afternoons starting in May of 1998, and also may be rented out during the summer months, by the week! This sounds very interesting."}, {"response": 30, "author": "bold", "date": "Thu, Apr  9, 1998 (12:37)", "body": "I just finish reading Shirley. I really enjoyed the book. I recommend this book."}, {"response": 31, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Apr  9, 1998 (18:23)", "body": "I forgot to mention that I also visited the Bronte birthplace in Thornton! Where Elizabeth, Maria, Charlotte & Branwell were born. It was extremely hard to find, but worth it."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Tue, Apr 14, 1998 (14:11)", "body": "As a member of the Bronte Society I have been invited to sort of a sneak preview of the Bronte Birthplace. I hope to go this weekend. The house should be open to the public with an admission charge in May. If they are renting the house out maybe someone on the conference should rent it and we could all meet up!! Mamie"}, {"response": 33, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, May  6, 1998 (14:31)", "body": "It was really a treat to see that house, but very difficult to find. My husband Tim and I walked all over until a kindly local steered us the right way."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Plaridel", "date": "Sat, May  5, 2001 (18:28)", "body": "I'm also planning to go to Haworth in June this year. I'll be in England for only 3 days. Any suggestions on the best way I can spend the time. Is it worthwhile going to the moors? I think it is, but I still need your opinions. Thank you. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 23, "subject": "Juvenalia:  Angria & Gondal", "response_count": 16, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "rochelle", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (00:15)", "body": "It's been a topic of debate for some time as to just how much of Emily's poetry can be attributed to Gondal. At one extreme it is believed that Gondal is responsible for all her poetic output. Others limit the Gondal cycle to only those poems she transcribed in her notebook labeled \"Gondal Poems\". An interesting - and vexing - question is what happened to the prose component of the saga. Did Emily or Anne destroy it themselves? Or, as Edward Chitham and others have proposed, did Charlotte destroy these works, along with Emily's unfinished novel, because Emily was moving to a socio/political stance that shocked Charlotte?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (10:46)", "body": "Barker also makes this claim that Charlotte destroyed Emily's 2nd novel; however, she fails to back it up with a single fact beyond conjecture. I just can't imagine it, to tell you the truth -- she loved Emily so much & her death was just a loss & devastation to her -- would she then have destroyed a product of Emily's hand? She may not have wanted to see it PUBLISHED, but I have a really hard time picturing her putting the mss. to the fire. Unless he was out of her mind with grief & a desire to 'prote t' her sister..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (22:03)", "body": "You're quite right about the conjecture - once more, we enter that nebulous realm of inference that is fascinating and frustrating. I do believe that Charlotte was capable of destroying those texts in order to defend her carefully constructed version of Emily - to protect her sister, as you pointed out. It was Charlotte who believed that an interpreter ought always to have stood between Emily and the world. It's difficult to reconstruct just how revolutionary Emily had become - Chitham makes a very powerful argument for the influence of Shelly on her work, and suggests that she had been moving to a \"Shellyian\" socio-political stance. We also know that Charlotte believed Emily was a theorist, who came up with ideas not always (in Charlotte's eyes) practical. As Charlotte conceded, Emily's reason often travelled a different road from hers. And Charlotte certainly did find her sister's novel disturbing. Those missing texts are one of the really frustrating points of Bronte research. Maybe Arthur Bell Nicholls destroyed them? I imagine he went through quite a few of his beloved wife's papers, and he did destroy the \"Gun Group\" painting (thank God the Emily portrait survived)."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (10:31)", "body": "I agree that Charlotte loved to have her own way, & Emily frustrated her by refusing to follow her lead, for the most part. But I have a hard time envisioning a writer who was completely commited to her Art destroying another writer's mss., especially a sister who meant so much to her. Charlotte wrote in 1849: (Anne's death)...\ufffddid not rend my heart as Emily\ufffds stern, simple, undemonstrative end did. I let Anne go to God, and felt he had a right to her; I could hardly let Emily go - I wanted to hold her back then, and I want her back now.\ufffd"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (01:54)", "body": "That passage Charlotte wrote about Emily is possibly the most moving in all her correspondence, along some others on Emily's death. How incredibly painful it must have been to her to suggest her sister's absolute absence - \"Yes, there is no more Emily in time or earth now\". Her descriptions about how Emily reluctantly turned her dying eyes from the sun are especially poignant. Charlotte also wrote of Emily that she now and then \"broaches ideas which strike my sense as much more daring and original than practical; his reason may be in advance of mine, but certainly it often travels a different road.\" Charlotte not only ommitted verses of her sister's poetry when she published it, she also added her own lines and verses to their poetry without identifiying them as her own, which would have been complete anathema to Emily. Why did the poetry of the Juvenalia survive and not the prose? Why have none of Emily's other papers survived? The candidates for their destruction are few - Emily herself, Anne, Charlotte, their father (who would not have been able to read the \"Bronte small script\" and so would not have known what he was destroying) or Arthur Bell Nicholls."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (10:45)", "body": "There's no doubt that Emily's death affected Charlotte as even Anne's could not. She just felt such an incredibly strong bond of love with her, & I think in some ways, she feared her \"power.\" (reports from Brussels were that Charlotte let herself be ordered around by Emily). As far as the Gondal prose...it IS puzzling that none has survived when we have so much Angria. Even those unscrupulous treasure hunters who talked Mr. B. out of the 'little books' surely would have sold them to the highest bidder. We DO know that Nicholls destroyed most of Branwell's painting of the Brontes; and that he wanted Ellen Nussey to burn all of Charlotte's letters. Charlotte's main literary crime was altering her sister's poetry -- she was trying to remove the Gondal references, but I agree that she went too far. Would it have been Emily herself? Would she have had any reason to destroy her mss. before her death? Or Anne, perhaps rent by religious melancholia?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Sep  8, 1997 (02:51)", "body": "It could have been either Emily or Anne, but I have a feeling that if either of them had had been inclined to destroy their work, they would have gone all the way and destroyed the poems as well. Nicholls was selective in what he destroyed, as we see in the \"Gun Group\" portrait where he preserved the Emily fragment. Perhaps he felt Emily's paper's needed a similar evisceration - something was so challenging in what Emily wrote that I feel someone felt the need to destroy them. Had WH not been in print, I wouldn't be surprised if it would have met the same fate. There probably weren't many personal letters Emily wrote save those to her sisters. She wrote one to Ellen Nussey that a proper letter was a feat she had never yet accomplished, which makes it fairly clear she had no intention of starting then. She did write to her sisters and Branwell, because their correspondence refers to her letters. Perhaps she imparted some of her phillosophy in these letters, and at some point someone in the family thought it best to dispose of them. Letters are such private things, so perishable even in an age that hoarded them. Think of the narrow escape Charlotte's Heger letters had."}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Sep  8, 1997 (10:55)", "body": "Yes -- it's incredible to think that Madam Heger actually SEWED THEM BACK TOGETHER AGAIN after Monsieur tore them up. Why? Was she a glutton for punishment? The loss of letters that really saddens me are Charlotte's to Mary Taylor. Ellen Nussey was C.'s \"conventional friend,\" but C. probably would have poured out her heart to Mary -- about Heger, her views on literature, the Woman Question, etc. I think we would know so much more about C. if only Mary hadn't burned those letters! Oh well -- she was ust trying to protect her friend's privacy. Her intentions were good."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (00:01)", "body": "There's a book I'd love to get my claws on, and would appreciate anyone who could advise me on. \"Gondal's Queen\", by Fannie Ratchford (1955), one of the first serious attempts to reconstruct the Gondal Cycle. Ratchford was a little indiscriminate in choosing what was Gondal verse and what wasn't, but by all accounts it's a good read. I've tried my hand at reconstructing Gondal, or even a bare chronology of the events in the poems from the slight clues in the titles and poems themselves, and came to two conclusions. (a) In spite of the efforts of several scholars since the poems became widely available in Hatfields \"The Complete Poems Of Emily Bronte\" in 1941m no completely plausible reconstruction has been completed and (b) such a reconstruction, covering the various fragments of the story we have, is impossible. It is entirely possible, even probable, that Emily and Anne experimented with multiple, even contradictory, plot resolutions. Do people believe AGA, Geraldine, GS and Rosina Alcona or any combination of the above are the same person?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (12:34)", "body": "Elena: I guess part of the problem is that the poems in the \"A\" and \"B\" books of Emily are not necessarily divided along straight Gondal/non-Gondal lines? I read somewhere that Emily left us an 'atlas' of Gondal which she scribbed in the pages of a real atlas? This doesn't help with reconstructing the prose saga though..."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (23:06)", "body": "Sorry Amy, my response to the above seems to have gone astray when I first sent it. Anne did scribble some geographical names in an atlas, along with a few descriptive lines, and it is one of the few clues we have. For example, we know from this source that Gondal was a large island in the North Pacific and Gaaldine was a large island in the South Pacific newly discovered and colonised from Gondal. Emily left a list of minor Gondal characters with a description of their physical appearance. Unfortunately, only one of the characters, Flora, appears in the poetry. The notebook question is a source of ongoing debate. Emily did designate one of the books \"Gondal Poems\". The controversy is over the contents of the other notebook - did she include Gondal poems in that one as well?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "Right. That's what I had read -- how accurate was the distinction bet. her two notebooks? Speaking of which, how mad do you think Emily was when she discovered that Charlotte had read her poems? C. makes it sound like it created a major row & she had to do some heavy persuading (with Anne's help) to get Emily to come round to the publishing idea. I wonder if Emily ever would have published if not for the ambitions of C...."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (18:49)", "body": "I don't think she would have published. I think she was absolutely and utterly furious with Charlotte. You get these little hints about some of the disputes they must have had - like the time Charlotte took Anne up to London to give her publishers \"ocular proof\" that the Bells were three different people. She inadvertantly let Emily's identity slip, and the letter she wrote after she returned home and informed Emily of this seems to hint that Emily was utterly and completely outraged. Still, I think Charlotte was probably correct when she said Emily was not without some \"honourable ambition\" when it came to getting published. If Emily had remained utterly opposed to having her poetry published she would not have worked to eliminate the Gondal references. If she really hadn't wanted to cooperate in the project, I don't think any force on earth could have induced her to change her mind."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (11:18)", "body": "Yes, the letter Charlotte wrote to Smith later about not letting Emily's identity slip in any further correspondence shows how furious Emily must have been. I do agree that if Emily didn't want to publish, than nothing or no one could have persuaded her. Considering how resolute she was in her final illness, I think we can safely say she wasn't amenable to persuasion..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Nov 13, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "Charlotte certainly understood that about her sister. If the context wasn't so tragic, her comments in that letter to the specialist about Emily's final illness would almost have been amusing. I don't have the lines in front of me, but you know the remarks I'm talking about? Something along the lines of if you want Emily to take up a position, don't try and persuade her into it. More often then not, she was capable of arguing herself out of it."}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov 14, 1997 (13:29)", "body": "Yeah, it went something like -- if you want her to come around to your point of view, then take the opposite tack... bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 24, "subject": "More Bronte Pictures!", "response_count": 11, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (20:59)", "body": "OK here goes! I'm hoping this will be a picture of the Bronte Parsonage in Haworth, where the sisters spent much of their lives:"}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "I almost fainted when this actually worked! OK, now I'm on a roll. This is from a potrait painted of Charlotte by George Richmond in London:"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (21:05)", "body": "Amazing! I'm almost ready to become an HTML programmer (not!) This is a picture of Emily. It's torn off because Charlotte's husband, Rev. Arthur Nicholls, destroyed the rest of the picture, which had been painted by Branwell -- he didn't think the portraits of Charlotte & Anne were \"like.\""}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (21:07)", "body": "This is a picture of Anne, drawn by Charlotte, who was also an accomplished artist. Some of her pencil landscapes are just amazing!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "This is Haworth in Yorkshire, where the Brontes lived. I will be visiting in September, when the heather is supposed to be in full bloom. I will definitely bring back pictures & scan them in!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (21:15)", "body": "Yhis is Richard Redgrave's picture THE GOVERNESS (1844):"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (21:18)", "body": "Here's another view of the Parsonage with the graveyard attached. Charlotte & Emily are actually buried in a vault inside the church."}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (21:21)", "body": "And now, for screen credit (so important in Hollywood). The portraits of the Brontes are from the BRONTE WEB PAGE: http://lang.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~matsuoka/Bronte.html Redgrave's Governess is from the JANE EYRE related WEB PAGE: http://www.albion.edu/Fac/engl/diedrick/jeyre.htm The final picture of the Parsonage is from THE BRONTE PARSONAGE WEB PAGE: http://www.virtual-pc.com/bpmweb/BPFINTR.HTM"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Mick1", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (11:45)", "body": "To Amy2: I think, as host to this conference, you should present us with a picture of yourself. I'll be watching! Mick"}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (12:23)", "body": "I'd be more than happy to, IF SOMEONE WILL JUST TELL ME HOW!!! I have the pictures; I have a scanner; I know how to post pix to this board from other URL's; BUT...if the pix are resident on my hard drive, then how do I get them here? HEEELLLLPPP for the HTML-challenged!!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 1997 (18:30)", "body": "NEWSFLASH: Mick has very kindly offered to host my pictures on -his- Web site, so after I scan them in, we will have my photos of my recent trip to Haworth to look at! Many thanks to Mick for aiding the HTML-Challenged (am I eligible for a U.S. Federal Grant?) -- amy bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 25, "subject": "What's Your Favorite Bronte Novel?", "response_count": 54, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (11:06)", "body": "I hasten to mention I have not read VILLETTE or SHIRLEY yet!!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (11:19)", "body": "no big surprise here... of course its JANE EYRE! (I'm a poet and I didn't know it!) :o) Lori"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "My vote has to go for Jane Eyre, also. It's been a favorite since I was about 12. I am one of those who thinks Wuthering Heights is much ado about nothing, and I greatly enjoyed Tenant of Wildfell Hall. That is the extent of my Bronte reading, though, an oversight I intend to correct soonest!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (16:14)", "body": "The criticial reception of WH over the years is interesting. When it first came out in 1847, it was almost universally excoriated for being \"coarse,\" every character was detestable, etc. THEN, many yeares after Emily's death, this incredible re-evaulation took place, and she's commonly thought to be a better writer than Charlotte. I readily acknowledge she was a better POET, but I have to say, I prefer Charlotte's novel to hers. And I understand that VILLETTE is just a tour de force -- George Eliot cou dn't stop talking about it."}, {"response": 5, "author": "rochelle", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (00:05)", "body": "Without doubt and without reservations, Wuthering Heights. Read it as simple Romance and like Lockwood you will find yourself confounded in your attempts to gain entry. Some people will always shudder and turn their backs on a novel that is anadulterated power, and both has closure and yet also resists it. I read it at the age of nine, and have come back to it every year of my life. Like Virginia Woolf said, it is not simply a statement about \"I am\" or \"You are\", but rather \"We, the human race\" and \"You, the eternal powers\". I this isn't too inarticulate...and don't even start me on the poetry!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (10:49)", "body": "Elena, I see you are a big Emily supporter! I haven't read WH for some time, & I intend to do so before I go to England at the end of September. I do remember being utterly unable to put it down until I finished. It's quite a challenge, betweeen the multiple narrators, Yorkshire dialect, & multi-generational plot. What is it about the book that draws you in?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (21:24)", "body": "Amy, it seems strange, but \"Wuthering Heights\" has been a part of my consciousness for so long that I haven't thought in years why it is my favourite novel. Like the beautiful image of Cathy's dream, it has changed the colour of my mind, like wine through water. It's not just a single element, it's everything. The poety, the fascinating way she manipulates her narrative and structure. The characters, of course. Even at the end of the novel, Nelly Dean - and the reader - are still asking who or what Heathcliffe is. And the younger Cathy, is equally vivid, even in her abscence. \"Jane Eyre\" is a superb work of genius. You only have to look at the way generations of women have responded to it as a voicing of their own journey. But \"Wuthering Heights\" doesn't seem to be operating on the same plain - it transcends it. Charlotte's is a voice of personal love and indignation and need. \"Wuthering Heights\" and its characters are operating on another, eternal level."}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (10:33)", "body": "Thanks. I definitely look forward to reading this again with new insight."}, {"response": 9, "author": "classic", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (16:31)", "body": "Jane Eyre- my favorite book of all time. it has everything a book should have. The characters are great (Jane, Mr. Rochester are my favorites), the plot is interesting, and you have to think about it. I'm reading it for the second time now and am still finding new things. Charlotte Bronte was a genius for suspense; i never guessed what would happen in j.E but she gave you clues and foreshadowing. I just love that book. I've read Wuthering Heights, which i liked, but it was different. it's the kind of book that should be read many times before you can understand it. Villette was also very good. i'm reading Agnes Grey now so i'll see how I like that, which I'm sure i will. After all, can there be a bad Bronte novel?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (19:47)", "body": "NO!! I don't think so. Although THE PROFESSOR & SHIRLEY might be the least liked. Even so, I'd rather read the Bronte's lesser works than the best work of many other authors."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (01:04)", "body": "There has been something of a reassessment of Anne in recent years, both of her character and novels. This is particularly evident in \"The Tenant of Wildfell Hall\", which had suffered in the past from Victorian incomprehension and Charlotte's verdict that it was a totally inappropriate subject for Anne's character - or at least Charlotte's interpretation of her character. Recent studies have held it to be a pioneering feminist polemic. I'm inclined to agree. She has an edge even on Charlotte's novels, which were daring enough when it came to education and the role of women in the society she lived in. She also has a wonderful, dry edge to her narrative style that is very appealing - and not dissimiler to Charlotte or even Austen."}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (10:48)", "body": "I really like Anne's work. When I was younger, her extreme piety kind of turned me off, but upon re-reading AGNES & TENANT recently, I was struck by her dry, ironic humour which very much reminds me of Jane Austen. Still, there's something about Charlotte's fiery metaphoric language & passion that just engages me in a way that Anne does not. But isn't it wonderful that a single family produced at least THREE geniuses?!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "there's something about Charlotte's fiery metaphoric language & passion that just engages me in a way that Anne does not. I agree, Amy. And Jane's core of steel is just no match for Helen's. Not to mention that the equal of Rochester is not found in Anne's books."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (10:48)", "body": "Yeah, Mr. Weston seems like a nice guy, but he doesn't have that Byronic appeal. Ditto with Gilbert Markham in TENANT. I think Anne was actually stronger writing women, whereas Charlotte could write BOTH men & women with a flair!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (09:34)", "body": "JANE EYRE, no doubt about it! I read passages of the book almost every week, I love the Jane/Rochester dialogues, I think it is a beautiful hymn to womanhood and love. I\ufffdve also read Villette and The Tenant. They are both quite good, even though I much prefered Villette. Lucy Snowe is a very endearing heroine. But, for me, the love story of Rochester and Jane has this strange, wonderful appeal that one can\ufffdt resist. And now that I\ufffdve seen the new adaptation, I feel even more in love with the novel than e er before. Let`s just say that Samantha Morton matches the picture of Jane that I have in my head."}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (18:17)", "body": "I just re-read the first 200 pgs.of JE today -- what a great book!! It is just so engrossing -- even though I know the plot like the back of my hand, I still can't wait to find out what happens next! And the quality of Charlotte's poetic language & metaphors just puts other writers to shame. What a genius -- we are so lucky to have four novels by her!!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (00:31)", "body": "the quality of Charlotte's poetic language & metaphors just puts other writers to shame. I know that's a big part of what keeps drawing *me* back..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (15:50)", "body": "There's a real dreamlike quality to her prose in JE too. It's just a tour de force of writing -- I can't think of another novel that has this level of intensity, except for (surprise!) WUTHERING HEIGHTS."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Sep  9, 1997 (20:17)", "body": "Here's some of the Virginia Woolf critique that I mentioned before, one genius writing about another: The meaning of a book, which lies so often apart from what happens and what is said and consists rather in some connection which things in themselves different have had for the writer, is necessarily hard to grasp. Especially this is so when, like the Brontes, the writer is poetic, and his meaning inseparable from his language, and itself rather a mood than a particular observation. WH is a more difficult book to understand than JE, because Emily was a greater poet than Charlotte. When Charlotte wrote she said with eloquence and splendour and passion `I love', `I hate', 'I suffer'. Her experience, though more intense, is on a level with our own. But there is no 'I' in WH. There are no governessess. There are no employers. There is love, but it is not the love of men and women. Emily was inspired by some more general conception. The impulse which urged her to create was not her own suffering or her own injuries. She looked out upon a world cleft into gigantic disorder and felt within her the power to unite it in a book...That gigantic ambition is to be felt throughout the novel - a struggle half thwarted but of superb conviction, which is not merely 'I love' or 'I hate', but 'we, the whole human race' and 'you, the eternal powers...' the sentence remains unfinished. It is not strange that it should be so; rather it is astonishing that she can make us feel she had it in her to say at all... And so we reach these summits of emotion not by rant or rhapsody but by hearing a girl sing old songs to herself as she rocks in the branches of a tree; by watching the moor sheep crop the turf; by listening to the soft wind breath through the grass...How, we are allowed to ask, can there be truth or insight or the finer shades of emotion in men and women who so little resemble what we have seen ourselves? But even as we ask it we see in Heathcliff the brother that a sister of genius might have seen; he is impossible we say, but nevertheless no boy in literature has so vivid an existence as his... it is as if she could tear up all that we know human beings by, and fill these unrecognizable transparences with such a gust of life that they transcend reality. Hers, then, is the rarest of all powers. She could free life from its dependence on facts; with a few touches indicate the spirit of a face so that it needs no body; by speaking of the moor make the wind blow and the thunder roar..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep 10, 1997 (10:36)", "body": "I love Virginia Woolf's literary criticism -- she has wonderful things to say abut Jane Austen too. What book is her criticism of WH in? I would love to have this! Thanks."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Sep 10, 1997 (18:07)", "body": "The source I used was the Emily Bronte book in the Penguin Critical Anthologies Series (Penguin Books, 1973). It was originally published as an essay in the \"The Common Reader\" entitled \"Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights\". I don't know if you've come across this series before, but it is an excellent source for criticism since the publication of the novel. I don't know if there is a critical anthology for Charlotte and Anne - they are not included in the list of other titles in the series in the book. I don't know if the book is still in print - I picked up my copy in a second hand bookshop years ago."}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep 10, 1997 (19:42)", "body": "I may have run across this series or something like it on PRIDE & PREJUDICE. I do enjoy reading literary criticism, though some academics tend to spin off wildly in support of a pet theory... Virginia Woolf, Henry James, & E.M. Forster are my favorites -- being novelists, they bring a deeper understanding to the party!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Sep 11, 1997 (20:01)", "body": "E M Forster included this in his \"Aspects of the Novel\": `The emotions of Heathcliff and Catherine Earnshaw function differently to other emotions in fiction. Instead of inhabiting the characters, they surround them like thunder clouds, and generate the explosions that fill the novel from the moment when Lockwood dreams of the hand at the window down to the moment when Heathcliff, with the same window open, is discovered dead. WH is filled with sound - storm and rushing wind - a sound more important than words and thoughts. Great as the novel is, one cannot afterwards remember anything in it but Heatcliff and the elder Catherine. They cause the action by their separation: they close it by their union after death. No wonder they \"walk\"; what else could such beings do? Even when they were alive their love and hate transcended them' The review then goes on for a little longer. I know what you mean about literary criticism. It caused me no end of mirth when I was at Uni - academics that seemed to lived so cloistered that their favourite literary works were more real to them than reality. And they all had distinct little theories. I used to call it \"pushing the wheelbarrow\" - they all had their own little theory to push along. But it so interesting to throw theories into the air and see which ones flew."}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 12, 1997 (10:37)", "body": "Yeah, some of them are so outrageous you have to ask yourself: \"Did they READ the book?\" I've read some essays comparing Jane Austen to the architecture of the times; to Mozart; etc. Another review that made me laugh compared a SCIENCE FICTION STORY to a \"Romansbilden\"!! (excuse my poor spelling). But when a critic is really perceptive, Virginia Woolf in particular, it absolutely adds to understanding of the work."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Mon, Sep 15, 1997 (03:18)", "body": "Oh Amy, I\ufffdm glad that you mentioned Henry James. I know it doesn\ufffdt have much to do with what is being discussed here, but it seems to me that he isn\ufffdt discussed enough. I mean, his books have some of the most impressive heroines ever created (Catherine Sloper, Isabel Archer) and the stories are so good. Besides they give you a lot to think about. There\ufffds a lot of human understanding in those novels. I don`t find them very complicated to read, though I\ufffdve heard the contrary. I am now reading Portrait of a ady and I find it terrific. I\ufffdve already seen the film and, though it was very good, it doesn`t come close to the depth of the novel. What say you (to Henry James and his writing)?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Sep 15, 1997 (10:38)", "body": "I haven't read much James, but I do like him very much, especially since he was such a major fan of Jane Austen, & I think that it shows. Most of the films made of his work are just God-awful (the Cybil Shephard PORTRAIT) but I've been seeing trailers for WINGS OF A DOVE with Helena Bonham-Carter that might actually be good. I THINK this comes out around X-mas in the States..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Wed, Sep 17, 1997 (13:38)", "body": "Was Cybil Shepard in a version of Portrait of a Lady? I only remember her from Daisy Miller, which is based on a very short novella of HJ\ufffds. She was very young, the movie\ufffds probably from the 70s. I only saw the end, so I can\ufffdt judge it, but it seemed to me a very dark version. The novella is dark as well (I read it some time ago), so I guess they kept the tone, wouldn\ufffdt mind seeing the whole thing. Actually the things I\ufffdve read by James are on the dark side. Washington Square (which is a GREAT book) and Portrait (and Daisy Miller). There\ufffds a definite tragic streak to each one. And there`s also true Austen flavour to some characters, so I recommend it to every JA fan. But on to the Brontes! A family that never gets boring!... ;-) I`ve been rewatching SM`s (it is definitely HER version, even though Ciaran is good as well) Jane Eyre...ahhh...\ufffdbig dreamy smile\ufffd..."}, {"response": 28, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep 17, 1997 (19:40)", "body": "Ah Luisa, how I envy you! I dearly hope to pick up a copy at the Bronte Parsonage next week!! And you're right -- Cybil was in DAISY MILLER (did her then-b.f. Bogdanovitch direct her in it?) She wasn't very good. I am really intrigued about the new Bonham-Carter H. James adaptation -- the trailer looks great, & I will definitely go. It will be something to cling to over Christmas when we're being assailed with more TITANICS & FLUBBERS."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Thu, Sep 18, 1997 (05:12)", "body": "Yeah, Wings of The Dove should be something to look forward to. HBC plays a baddie, it seems. I think she is a very good actress, from what I\ufffdve seen, so I\ufffdm also very curious to see it. On to another thing that doesn`t have much to do with the Brontes, but I have to ask: have you by any chance heard of a BBC TV adaptation of The Mill on the Floss with that actress from Breaking the Waves?"}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep 18, 1997 (09:54)", "body": "Yes! I just saw a Coming Attraction for it on PBS, and it looked great!! The scenery was absolutely beautiful. I have no idea when this is slated to air, but I assume it's next season?? They were promo-ing TENANT at the same time, & I am really excited to see this!!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Thu, Sep 18, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "Well, I\ufffdll probably have to buy Mill through the Net, cause I don\ufffdt see them showing it here. But no matter. Amy (or anyone kind enough to help me), I have a favour to ask. Did you know that there\ufffds a new Jane Eyre page at A&E`s ? I\ufffdve trying to get in, but everytime I go there, my computer shuts down and I don\ufffdt get to see anything. I wonder, could anyone give me the gist of what is said in the Samantha Morton interview (maybe even mail the interview to me...)? Thanks, Luisa"}, {"response": 32, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep 18, 1997 (19:14)", "body": "So it's finally up! I was wondering when they would do this. Sure, I would be more than happy to e-mail you the text of her interview!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Fri, Sep 19, 1997 (06:32)", "body": "Thanks, Amy, you`re a pal! ;-)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 19, 1997 (10:29)", "body": "Luisa, I made the journey to the A&E Web site, but was foiled! I didn't see JANE EYRE anywhere -- they still have \"The Making of IVANHOW\" & \"Emma On Location.\" Please give me the URL & I will go back & get that interview for you. Sorry!"}, {"response": 35, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 19, 1997 (10:30)", "body": "No really, I do know how to spell IVANHOE -- it's one of my favorite books. It is very very early here...."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Sep 23, 1997 (22:25)", "body": "It is interesting that Scott had an influence on all the Brontes, perhaps most markedly in Emily."}, {"response": 37, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep 24, 1997 (11:08)", "body": "Yes!! Charlotte once commented to Ellen that any novels written after Scott weren't worth reading. I understand that the landscape of Gondal & even of WH borrows some features from Scott's Scotland?? Here's a bizarre theory, but do you think that Emily was influenced by the Ivanoe/Rowena/Rebecca triangle in IVANHOE, which she may have employed for the Cathy/Heathcliff/Edgar one in WH?"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Wed, Sep 24, 1997 (12:32)", "body": "Amy, sorry I couldn`t get back to you sooner. I guess you don\ufffdt need that URL anymore, since I saw the interview at Ramble. Thank you. I just wished the reporter had asked a bit more about her plans, her life as an actress, etc, than about what it was like to \"be\" Jane Eyre. I mean, she answered what you would expect: what`s it like to be anyone else? But the questions seemed repetitive to me. I read it all, but I was tired at the end."}, {"response": 39, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep 24, 1997 (15:17)", "body": "Is that on the Republic of Pemberley \"Ramble\" Board? I would like to see that. Thanks."}, {"response": 40, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Sep 24, 1997 (19:13)", "body": "Amy, that's quite an interesting idea, and one that hadn't occured to me. Offhand, I can't recollect any discussion of \"Ivanhoe\" as a potential influence on Emily. Most usually mentioned are \"The Black Dwarf\", \"Old Mortality\" and \"Waverley\". TBD has a character called \"Earnscliff\". I don't think there's a direct correlation between the \"Ivanhoe\" triangle and WH, although there may be a more general influence. One of the strongest candidates for a literary source for WH is \"The Bridegroom of Barna\", published in \"Blackwood's\" in 1840, which bears a lot of plot similarities. indeed, John Hewish suggested that \"One feels that had Simmonds read WH he might have charged Emily Bronte with plagiarism\". Not that it is in any way on a parr with WH. I haven't read \"Ivanhoe\" in while, however, so I'll pick it up again and see if it strikes me as a potential source. I think there might be some similarities with some of the Gondal plotlines (at least as far as anyone can determine the Gondal plotlines). Speaking of Gondal...it's no secret where those deer wandering around on the hills and characters like \"Flora\" and \"Douglas\" came from!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Thu, Sep 25, 1997 (12:35)", "body": "Amy, the interview with Sam Morton is indeed on the Ramble board, I thought YOU had put it there, that\ufffds why I didn\ufffdt give you the URL (as well as for the tiny reason that I don`t know how to give links).Anyway, the Jane Eyre thing is in Behind the Scenes at A&E`s."}, {"response": 42, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep 25, 1997 (18:10)", "body": "Thanks Luisa! That is so strange -- every time I got to the A&E website, I see IVANHOE & EMMA, but no JANE EYRE!!! Could you give me their URL? Maybe I can accessing an old one. Thanks! Elena -- IVANHOE rules, though it is much more of a traditional swashbuckling Romance than WH, that's for sure. Ivanhoe himself is bold & noble; Rowena is pure; Rebecca is pretty darned interesting though -- an intelligent, ethical woman who puts the Templars to shame. I don't know what Scott would have thought of WH -- he might have been a little shocked!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Fri, Sep 26, 1997 (15:23)", "body": "Amy, I sure hope this helps you! Here goes: http://www.aetv.com/scenes/janeeyre/ Is this what you meant by URL (sorry, I\ufffdm completely ignorant)? I can now access the pages with the interviews without interruptions, which is great. I`ve devoured everything that`s there... ;-) Anyway, hope you can get there without further ado."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Fri, Sep 26, 1997 (15:24)", "body": "Oh, I didn`t think this would create an immediate link! How great! ;-)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Oct 11, 1997 (22:22)", "body": "Thanks Luisa! I did manage to get to the JE page before I left for England. I'm glad that they acknowledge the book to such a large extent, and all of the information about is actually ACCURATE (at the Parsonage in Haworth, they have the pub. date of JE as being 1848 instead of 1847!). oh well..."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Thu, Oct 16, 1997 (14:09)", "body": "So, you did buy the new Jane Eyre? Have you seen it? ;-)"}, {"response": 47, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 16, 1997 (20:32)", "body": "I did, and then promptly LOST it, can you believe that? In fact, I had bought a ton of stuff at the Parsonage gift shop -- books, the new JE, the new TENANT -- and my bags somehow got lost on the way from Yorkshire to London to Munich to Sussex! Oh well...at least it airs this Sunday & we can tape it. My fiance does have the TENANT though and we watched it a bit -- looked pretty good. I especially liked Toby Stephens as Gilbert -- he really fit the part. Though Tara Fitzgerald initially came off very harsh as Helen, which was not my mental picture of the character from the book...."}, {"response": 48, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sun, Oct 19, 1997 (09:44)", "body": "Yes, I know what you mean. I thought she looked a bit of a cold fish at first. But my heart kinda went out to her with the development of the story and at the end I thought it was quite a performance. I mean, with the kind of things she has to go through, it\ufffds obvious why she builds this wall around herself and her son. Gilbert is her only hope for a little happiness. Toby Stephens is great as Gilbert, IMO. I liked him (and his beautiful, rugged accent!) from the start. BTW, Amy, let me once again wish you all the best for your wedding. I do hope you`ll be very happy! :)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Oct 19, 1997 (12:42)", "body": "Thanks Luisa!!! I really apreciate that. My Tim is coming out from England on 11/8, & he's going to be staying with me here in L.A. for 5 weeks! Then we both go back for his graduation (he just got his M.A. from Loughborough Univeristy) & spend X-mas in England. THEN, we're hoping for the wedding to take place in January!! As far as TENANT -- I too was really impressed with Toby Stephens. His look & performance were just superb. As far as Fitzgerald: I never had a mental picture of Helen being so har -bitten & cold initially, just sort of stand-offish with the nosy neighbors. Even so, I liked Fitzgerald better as the character warms up to Gilbert... JANE EYRE is tonite on A&E!!! It's at 5 P.M. & 9 P.M. PST, and they're re-running it on Tuesday. Get those VCR's ready!!!"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (18:14)", "body": "Guess your enthusiasm kinda fizzled out after the first five minutes or so of Jane Eyre, huh, Amy? ;-)"}, {"response": 51, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (20:28)", "body": "I don't even think it took that long, Luisa! The Red Room sequence was so ludicrous & overdone that I knew we were in trouble! It was like a Fun House at a carnival, was it not? It seems that most of the ladies on the Austen Board hated this version too, so we are not alone...."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (05:34)", "body": "Well, I\ufffdm glad YOU are not alone, Amy, cause, for my part, I thought the new adaptation had lots of good in it. But I\ufffdve already said enough on this score. The novelty is starting to wear off. ;-)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (18:26)", "body": "Yeah, I know what you mean. Now that I've ranted & raved across 2 boards, I think I've gotten it out of my system. BTW, TENANT OF WILDFELL HALL airs on PBS this Sunday, 10/26, at 9 P.M. PST!!! I saw a bit of it in England & it really looked good!"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Heulwen", "date": "Sat, Sep 19, 1998 (14:49)", "body": "My favourite Bronte book would have to be Wuthering Heights. I love that entire book. After Emily I like Anne Bronte's books. And then Charlotte. IMO Charlotte overused her tortured love story, although telling it from the male perspective was interesting in The Professor, but then in Shirley, with the pupil - student (although that was more in the background), and in Villette, and in Jane Eyre (although I found that one fairly good) I also found that the begining of Shriley really good, and then once she'd lost her family it was very predictable towards the end. (That's all just my opinion) Although it would have been interesting to see where s e would have gone with Emma. I really liked Agnes Grey, I found the passage where she drops the rock on the birds very powerful. I've loved the Bronte books forever though, although all of them are due for a re-read. I should really finish my book of unifinished novels by CB. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 26, "subject": "What happens at the end of Villette? don't read if you havn't read the book", "response_count": 9, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug 24, 1997 (18:28)", "body": "Charlotte's view was definitely that M. Paul Emanuel died at sea at the end. She would have made it plainer, but her father wanted her to include a \"happier ending\" in the book, so she compromised for his sake."}, {"response": 2, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Sun, Aug 24, 1997 (23:29)", "body": "Charlotte does seem to have a problem with happy endings, doesn't she? Some people have even written that the ending of Jane Eyre isn't strictly a happy one, since she becomes more of a caretaker for Edward and less his lover. Not sure I agree with that, but it is interesting. Do you think it goes back to their romanticism, wherein a tragic ending is somehow more compelling and unhappiness is more interesting than happiness? Or strictly about Charlotte's own tragic life and love? Well, either way, it seems plain that M. Paul never returns. People who can believe he does return and see a happy ending must be very young or very happy themselves."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (10:29)", "body": "I think that in Charlotte's terms Jane Eyre really -was- a happy ending. Rather than being Rochester's plaything (remember - he was going to dress her in \"fine silks & jewels\" after he proposed) she is now truly his equal -- she has an independent income, and it is he who depends on her. Charlotte's own love life was pretty tragic - that grand unrequited passion for M. Heger, the flirtation with her publisher, George Smith, which never went anywhere, & finally, a brief marriage to a curate who didn't re lly understand her need to write. Maybe the end of VILLETTE was about as happy as she could envision..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "Meaning that being alone and independent, without family or spouse to annoy you, is a happy ending when you're tired of being the sole living child left to care for your aging father? I'll buy that, although it certainly makes Charlotte's life sound bleak. Actually, most biographies of the Brontes that I've read do make her latter days seem pretty nasty. Good insight, amy2."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (19:20)", "body": "Something like that. Even though I've read accounts that Charlotte was happy in her marriage to Arthur Bell Nicholls, the fact was, she never wrote again after she married him. He didn't understand that she needed private time to think & that was that. Plus, childbirth killed her. But she was so miserable as the last lonely survivor that maybe this is what she wanted. We'll never know."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (02:48)", "body": "I think Charlotte was happy - very happy - in her marriage. She wrote to help herself through unhappiness; \"The Professor\" was a result of the M Heger infatuation, and \"Shirley\" was her way of dealing with the tragedy of her sisters' death. I would never suggest that the only reason she wrote was to work through emotional tumult, as it was clearly part and parcel of her very being. But I think she was ready to experience happiness for a time, and generate new ideas. I'll have to look this up, but I seem to recollect that she was working on a new novel at the time of her death. Any way, I'm sure she would have returned to literature eventually. Like most authors, writing was a compulsion. As to the ending of \"Villette\", the situation is somewhat similar to the ending of \"Great Expectations\". Dickens had wanted Estella to be married to a quiet country doctor, but I think it was his publisher that wanted Pip and Estella to get together. Rather than compromise his orignal artistic vision, he resorted to ambiguity. Charlotte did the same, but I don't believe she changed the idea behind the original concept."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (10:37)", "body": "Actually, Charlotte never wrote a word during her marriage besides letters (which Nicolls wanted Ellen to burn). Her last novel fragment, EMMA, was written prior. One evening, she ran upstairs & read part of the mss. to him, but he didn't really respond to it, & that was that. Through her marriage, Charlotte keeps mentioning that her time was not her own. I read an interesting account that in the last year of her life, Charlotte chose Life over Art -- consciously, & knowing what she was giving up. I w nder if she ever would have written again. I understand that EMMA shows signs of a growing power & maturity, so it's a terrible shame and a waste."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "You're right about \"Emma\". I'm never as good on my Charlotte facts as I am on Emily. We'll never know, but I hope she'd have written more. I suspect that once the euphoria of marriage wore off, she would have found herself (in spite of what Southey said about rightful duties occupying a woman's time and leaving no time for writing) picking up her pen again. Whether or not she would have published again is another question."}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (19:53)", "body": "I can't imagine that Nicholls would have forcibly restrained her from writing, though he didn't care a fig for her literary career - to him, she was pretty much the parson's daughter. I would hope that if Charlotte had lived, she would have finished EMMA. And knowing her, she probably would have published it too! One thing we can say for her: it was her ambition & discovery of Emily's genius which forced all 3 sisters into print. I wonder if they would ever have published without her drive. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 27, "subject": "Character NAMES", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug 24, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "Thanks for joining this Board, Classic! Nice to see a new 'face'! I think Charlotte used names she was familiar with from Yorkshire as well. \"Eyre\" is an old ancestral name Charlotte discovered when she visited North Lees shortly before writing the book. Even her non de plume, \"Currer Bell\" might have been based on a local philanthropist. Since Charlotte was writing about actual people must of the time, she was clever in using names as disguises. I think she combined the metaphorical w. the practical."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (02:54)", "body": "The use of names in \"Wuthering Heights\" is also intriguing. There is a repetition of sounds in Heathcliff, Hareton, Hindley. Then there's Edgar Linton, Linton Heathcliff. The names Lockwood reads on the windowsill trace the path of the novel: Catherine Earnshaw, Catherine Linton, Catherine Heathcliff, full circle back to Catherine Earnshaw. It's interesting that in her poetry, Emily seems to have had a plethora of names for one character: AGA. Augusta Geraldine Almeda, Rosina, Geraldine Alcona and so on - Although I've never been entirely convinced that they're all the same character. At least Rosina and August seem to be distinct identities."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (10:40)", "body": "I wonder where Charlotte got \"Rochester\" from? I don't think this was an Angrian character, though he's modeled on her Duke of Zamorna/Arthur Wellesley."}, {"response": 4, "author": "classic", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (17:12)", "body": "There are more names in Villette that i can think of. I think that Charlotte bettered as a writer as she wrote more books, but Jane Eyre still is her best. Well Polly Home, the little girl at the beginning of the book's name is simple. But her name changes when she gets older to something more elegant- Paulina de Bassompierre (at least something like that!) That matches her up to Ginevra Fanshawe, another well-picked name. And an easier one of course is Jane, which is very 'plain.' (and it rhymes!) T at's interesting Amy, about Rochester. I wonder where she did find that."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (17:57)", "body": "Yeah, I don't think there's a precedent for 'Rochester' in the juvenalia. I know where she got 'Eyre' from, but that's about it!! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 28, "subject": "Favorite Characters", "response_count": 2, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (18:37)", "body": "Jane Eyre is a character with whom it is very easy to identify, particularly for many women. First as the truth telling child, then as a character who is divided between insecurity and knowing her own worth. Like some of Charlotte's letters, indignation and need seem to pour from her pen and leap from the page, and she articulates what so many of us feel. In WH, it's almost as difficult to identify a favourite character as it is to identify a hero - if there is one. Emily seems a little ambiguous about Hareton and Linton. Heathcliff and Cathy haunt the reader, much as they are supposed to walk the earth. Lines they speak come back to mind at the oddest times. Like them? Yes, even in spite of conventional morality. They die for each other, we can forgive them for living for each other. And who doesn't like and respond to the older Cathy, with all her capriciousness, over her daughter? I'm a romanticist at heart, and like them I find Healthcliff akin to Milton's Satan - even in spite of his pettiness, he is Byronically, majestically, dark."}, {"response": 2, "author": "classic", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (19:23)", "body": "I can see that there is a lot to WH, it is a dark book. I liked Heathcliff as a child; especially after the Earnshaw's father died. I guess I like some characters because i feel sorry for them (though not Linton, he complains way too much). I know that Heathcliff was in love with Catherine, but that doesn't mean that he has to torment his family, and himself too. But Hareton was mistreated as a child also, but he still had some good left in him, though maybe he wasn't as interesting as Heathcliff and Catherine. But Emily was a great writer; the poetic descriptions were great. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 29, "subject": "Did Emily \"will\" her own death?", "response_count": 23, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (10:32)", "body": "My feeling is this, Elena - I do NOT think that Emily willed her own death. In fact, on the afternoon before she died, she said: \"\ufffdIf you will send for a Doctor, I will see him now.\ufffd Charlotte also says: \ufffdI cannot forget Emily's death day. It becomes a more fixed, a darker, a more frequently recurring idea in my mind than ever. It was very terrible -- she was torn conscious, panting, reluctant, though resolute, out of a happy life.\ufffd Reports are that she struggled until the end. As far as refusing t eatment -- I think she was simply SMART. The ridiculous remedies for T.B. in those days only made Anne weaker through nausea, & she tried them all. It's hard to envision someone with that will of iron succumbing to despair & basically commiting suicide. If Emily didn't have T.B., I'm sure she would have been happy to live on many years & continue her writing."}, {"response": 2, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (14:47)", "body": "Wow, an interesting idea either way. If Emily had been about to lose her moors and the life she loved at home, I'd believe that she \"willed\" her death. But there wasn't anything like that occuring, was there? TB is still such a dangerous, easily communicable disease. The wonder is that Charlotte escaped."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "T.B. was so insidious at that time, not to mention cholera!! It really was amazing that Charlotte escaped, since there was so much contagion in the house, & she and Anne actually shared the same bed before Anne got really sick. True, Emily always sickened when she was away from home, but it seemed she had happily found her place @ Haworth in 1848-9. She knew she wouldn't have to work as a teacher again, since she was a published author. I've bee meaing to ask you a question too: What kind of person do you think that Emily was? I've been reading all these bios, but none of them really offer a clue. She remains such an enigma: was she really someone who liked animals better than people; who had mystic visions on the moors; who was rude & unsociable, or are we only hearing a part of the story? I just can't get a handle on her. Thanks!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (19:13)", "body": "I've been trying to figure out Emily for years, and I hardly think I'm closer now now than when I started. The half-dozen biographies I have, and the others I have read, agree on a few basic points but that's all. Her personal reserve and the lack of factual detail make it difficult in the extreme - Charlotte's letters, particularly while Emily was dying, indicate that she was still trying to understand her sister. Gaskell was unable to form a pleasant impression of her, although she concedes Charlotte would hardly have loved her as she did if she were truely unpleasant. I think she was proud, independant and rather misanthropic - refusing to teach Sunday school, learning to shoot, prefering animals to people (I've always loved that remark she made to her students that the house dog was dearer to her than them). What I'd really like to know is how engaged she was with the political and social issues of her day. I'd like to know just how far her transcendentalism took her - it has been suggested (I can't remember if it was Winifred Gerin or Katherine Frank, I think it might have been Frank) that she experienced states that almost sound like out of body experiences. She certainly saw things differently to her contempories. She also has been closely identified with her creation - almost as if \"Nelly, I am Heathcliff\" is her own declaration as well as Cathy's. This is all rather poorly expressed, but I can only offer this image: in the beautifully illustrated Folio Books edition of the Bronte works, there is a haunting frontspiece to WH. The illustrator took the profile portrait of Emily and reproduced it faithfully as an etching, even down to the cracks in Branwell's poorly mixed paint. But she is raising her left hand, obscuring her face and shutting out the viewer. It is a very resonant image."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (20:04)", "body": "Thank you for your insight. I hadn't heard about the learning to shoot part before now! I've read that Emily valued an earthly type of Paradise over Heaven itself, & eschewed conventional religion -- do you agree? I also know that she was almost universally disliked in Brussels, except by Charlotte & a single younger girl. Do you also think she was really that sympathetic to Branwell? That she would go & retrieve him from the Black Bull after a bender? That last one sounds kind of 'mythlike' to me. hanks for joining this Board -- it's great to have an Emily expert here!!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (00:42)", "body": "It was her father who taught her how to shoot. So much for the stern authoritarian figure he is often held to be! This is a fairly gut level reaction, but I believe that Emily's Heaven would have looked very much like the earth she loved. I can imagine her as Cathy, dreaming she was hurled out of Heaven by the angry angels and weeping for joy that she had been returned to earth. I think Charlotte was right, and she was VERY reluctant to leave this world. On the other hand, she already half inhabited a world of spirit anyway. These lines are from Gondal, but they seem embody how she saw the imaginative process: A messenger of Hope comes every night to me And offers, for short life, eternal liberty. He comes with western winds, with evening's wandering airs, With that clear dusk of heaven that brings the thickest stars; Winds take a pensive tone, and stars a tender fire And visions rise and change which kill me with desire ...... But first a hush of peace, a soundless calm decends; The struggle of distress and fierce impatinence ends; Mute music soothes my breast - unuttered harmony That I could never dream till earth was lost to me. Then dawns the Invisible, the Unseen its truth reveals; My outward sense is gone, my inward essence feels - Its wings are almost free, its home its harbour found; Measuring the gulf it stoops and dares the final bound! This is getting a bit lengthy, but I'll just say something quickly on the Branwell stories. Emily's only recorded comment on Branwell's dissolution is that he was a \"hopeless being\". There is no supportive evidence for the stories that she was the one who dragged him home from the Black Bull, put out the fires he started accidently by leaving candles lit, or snuck out to leave a light burning to guide him home after all the other household lights had been extinguished. These are old Haworth gossip, but they do make sense. Someone had to do it while Mr Bronte was ailing, and Emily was the tallest and strongest of his daughters. She was - and this is often forgotten - extremely practical. She ran the house after Aunt Branwell died, and wasn't nicknamed \"the Major\" for nothing. These stories are often cited as proof of a special bond between her and Branwell, but as Chitham points out, if she was lugging him home from the Black Bull in a drunken stupor, he probably wasn't in any condition for profound philisophical discussion. Thanks for having me on the board - and you can imagine how flattered I am to be called an Emily Expert!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (10:30)", "body": "Thanks for your expertise once again! I tend to agree with you - I don't think Emily viewd Branwell with especial pity -- she may not have been as vehement as Charlotte, who had lost her youthful collaborator & was very angry. Charlotte nicknamed Emily \"the Major\" after she tried to prevent William Weightman from paying too much attention to Ellen Nussey -- is that great? I wish we knew more about it -- she seems like such a singular person. Maybe I will be able to get more of a clue when I visit Hawo th next month."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Sun, Sep 14, 1997 (22:53)", "body": "I think visiting Haworth will give you as much of an insight into Emily as any biography could - that's why I'd love to visit there! There is so much condensed into that line of Charlotte's - \"My sister Emily loved the moors\". I don't know if she would have emerged as that strangely strong spirited figure if she had lived under different conditions. Charlotte, Shirley, tries to suggest what she might have been like as a comfortable, independent heiress. I think Emily would have been Emily in any time, place or social condition. Conversely, it is hard to disassociate her from Haworth."}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Sep 15, 1997 (10:41)", "body": "I agree. I think she would have been a complete iconoclast even if she were living in the middle of the London social swirl. She was just one of those indomitable personalities who stood apart from everyone else, like Joan of Arc. I sense from Charlotte that she loved & respected her sister, but also feared her to a certain degree. E. just wouldn't bend to her older sister's will!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Sep 18, 1997 (19:25)", "body": "Reading between the lines of Charlotte's letters, Biographical Notice of Ellis and Acton Bell and her 1850 Preface, it is fascinating to discern hints of the artistic disagreements the three sisters had. I particularly like the Preface's comment \"Had she but lived, her mind would of itself have grown like a strong tree; loftier, straighter, wider-spreading, and its matured fruits would have attained a mellower ripeness and sunnier bloom; but on that mind time and experience alone could work: to the influence of other intellects, it was not amenable\". As Stevie Davies points out, Charlotte doesn't point out what species this Emily-tree was to be. Thorn? Bitter-elder? What Charlotte means, of course, is that Emily was not amenable to her influence. She seems to have been quite happy to absorb what she could from Shelly, Scott and the German Romantics. Nonetheless, awe and love breathe through Charlotte's words about her sister, just as affection does with Anne. I think she may have done a greater disservice to Anne, because she rated her powers much lower than Emily's. Charlotte also came to believe that Anne seemed to have always been prepared for an early death, and that she died almost happily. She actually died resolutely because she had no alternative. Her poem upon learning her illness was mortal is heartbreaking - and Charlotte altered it before publication so as to make Anne seem more resigned than she was. And only weeks before her death, Anne still expressed a desire to live because she had some modest plans she wished to guide to fruition."}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 19, 1997 (10:34)", "body": "Yes, Anne presented such a brave face to the world at the end, but she certainly didn't welcome the prospect of dying -- she was terrified of it, really. I think she's terribly underrated as a writer -- AGNES GREY & WILDFELL HALL are just amazing creations -- if there weren't two other towering geniuses in the family, she might have been put on a similar footing with Jane Austen, since she shares JA's dry, ironic sense of humor & power of observation. I think it annoyed Charlotte that Emily wouldn't lis en to her opinions; but as you say, she was \"the dearest thing to her\" in the world."}, {"response": 12, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Oct  2, 1997 (13:06)", "body": "Just a question about the poem you mention above -- what is the title? Are there any books of Anne's poetry out there? Thanks."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Oct  7, 1997 (21:41)", "body": "Lorie, sorry it took a couple of days to get back to you. I'm not sure of the title of the poem, or even if it has one (many of the Bronte works went untitled). It was written in response to what was effectively her death sentance, delivered by Dr Teale, when she was diagnosed with \"consumption\" - tuberculosis. It's fairly lengthy, but the first verse runs: A dreadful darkness closes in On my bewildered mind O let me suffer & not sin Be tortured yet resigned. A fairly good indication of the state of her mind at the time! Charlotte ommitted the following stanza when she edited Emily and Anne's poems in 1850: O Thou hast taken my delight And hope of life away And bid me watch the painful night And wait the weary day replacing it with Thou, God, hast taken our delight Our treasured hope away. Thou bidst us now weep through the night And sorrow through the day. This substituted verse is reflective of Charlotte's thoughts, not Anne's. It also makes no sense in the context, unless Charlotte has intended it to look as if Anne is thinking of Emily. There are a few volumes of the Brontes work that include poems by Anne. I have an \"Everyman\" edition, edited by Juliet Barker, that was published a few years ago. This includes other poetry in addition to that published in the Brontes' lifetime as the \"Bells\", and also verse by Branwell. Wordsworth also put out a volume of Bronte poetry, and I imagine Penguin has as well. They've issued Charlotte's juvenalia in a volume with Jane Austen's early works, and their \"Complete Poems of Emily Bronte\" is the best of several volumes around. Anne's poetry has been published in the past with an emphasis on her religious works, a trend started by Charlotte. She also, however, wrote upon other subjects, and made a valuble contribution to the \"Gondal\" cycle with Emily. Her poetry is interesting to read as a companion to Emily's works - they seem to have sometimes selected the same subject as a sort of an exercise."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Oct 11, 1997 (22:24)", "body": "The poem is \"Self Confession.\" It's very long -- Anne composed it over a period of time. And Rochelle, I just read the Katherine Frank bio of Emily, UNCHAINED SOUL, which seems to posit that Emily -did- will her own death, possibly because of anorexia? An interesting theory, but I'm not quite sure that I buy it."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Sun, Oct 12, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "I wasn't remarkably taken by the Frank bio. As you say, interesting theory. However, anorexia has become a fashionable theory among biographers, and I don't believe Frank produced anything substantive to support the idea. It is true that the man who made Emily's coffin commented that it was the narrowest he had ever made, but she was quite lightly built, and the severity of her final illness would account for that. For what it's worth, the best straightforward bio of Emily is Edward Chitham's. Stevie Davis is even better (she had access to Chitham's material and discussed a lot of Bronte theories with him), but her work is not a straight bio. Glad you had the title to Anne's poem. I seem to have temporarily misplaced my Bronte poetry books. They're not on the Bronte bookshelf where they live! Good thing I've got a couple of copies of Emily's poems."}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Oct 13, 1997 (19:54)", "body": "\"Self Confession\" is the one where Anne kind of refutes Emily. I do have the other Emily bios & I'm going to read them! I wasn't to convinced by Frank either -- it seems very modern & far-fetched, frankly. Of course the Brontes dealt with food in their work, esp. JE -- I mean, Charlotte said she was perpetually hungry at Cowan Bridge, & she was unable to eat meat for years after, because of the disgusting, rancid cooking. But I don't think that means she has an eating disorder, do you? Ditto for Emil -- when she was miserable, she lost weight. So do a lot of people. Even me!!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Oct 13, 1997 (21:40)", "body": "Absolutely. Emily does write about food, but she also writes about many of the very practical aspects of life - fires, tending the animals, etc. It is one of the aspects of WH that is often noted, the fact that you get a sense that WH is a working farm set in a real world - a backdrop against which extraordinary things happen. I don't think food was an obsession with her. Anorexia has simply become a \"fashionable\" illness. Of course it is very real, and fairly common today in our image conscious society, but to make a diagnosis like that on the available evidence and then largely hang a book on it is just to speculative. Of course, that is all part of biographical workings - developing theories, which in turn will be challenged. There will never be such a thing as a definitive biography, as each age is writing as much about themselves as about the past when they do bios."}, {"response": 18, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Wed, Oct 15, 1997 (11:29)", "body": "Thanks for all the info on Anne's poetry and the bios, too."}, {"response": 19, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Oct 15, 1997 (17:58)", "body": "Some of the bios I've read do promote a pet theory without having much fact to back them up. Hence: Barker on Charlotte \"destroying\" Emily's 2nd novel; Helen Moglen on the sexual content of almost everything in Jane Eyre; Frank on Emily's \"anoexia,\" etc. I told my fiancee' we should come up with a wacko theory, like: I am the reincarnation of Charlotte Bronte; or -- Patrick & Branwell were lesbians!! I'm sure we could make the talk-show rounds with that one..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Oct 16, 1997 (14:36)", "body": "LOL. The moors are mysterious, and no one really understands those northerners, right? I wonder if Aunt Branwell is central enough (well known enough) to figure in those wild theories. How about if she's Charlotte's natural mother? Or really a man ala Charley's Aunt?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 16, 1997 (20:34)", "body": "HA! Why not? Or we could say that Mr. Bronte was having an affair with Tabitha Akyroyd! It seems like anything goes in bios these days, so maybe we can do a Kitty Kelly \"tell all\" & take the academic world by storm. I spend much of my time shaking my head while reading these books...."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Oct 16, 1997 (20:39)", "body": "Here's an oldie but a goodie - Branwell actually wrote Wuthering Heights! Seems he bragged about it to his friends...mind you, Branwell bragged about a lot of things he probably shouldn't have. Another good Emily theory is that she had transcendental states, or even astral travelled. But here's one for you, Amy. What do you think of the idea that's been around for a while that the \"red room\" passage in JE was drawn from the fact that one of the Bronte - Emily is suggested as the most likely - experienced a fit simmiler to Jane's? Then there's an amusing little poem by Branwell, the first line of which - from memory - runs \"Eamalia is a gurt bellaring bull\", and goes on to describe how Emily got into some grog one day and worked herself into a drunken fit, finally having to be bundled off to bed. The theory runs that it describes an actual incident."}, {"response": 23, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Oct 17, 1997 (10:08)", "body": "Oh brother! I have heard the one about Branwell being the \"real\" author of WH because of course, a mere GIRL couldn't write that book, could she? As far as Branwell's juvenalia -- the whole thing was drenched with tales of drunkenness & adultery, but I hardly think these children had personally experienced it at this point! Charlotte even makes fun of him by having his character brag about drinking all this gin, & it turns out he's just had several cups of tea! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 3, "subject": "FAITHFULNESS OF BIOS?", "response_count": 25, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "rita", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (13:04)", "body": "AMY! just stopping by to say hello."}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (17:24)", "body": "Hiya Rita! Glad to see you made it! Hope to see you posting here frequently, as well as on the new Medieval Board!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Carolyn", "date": "Thu, Jul 17, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "Hi, Amy, I, too, am just stopping by to say hello and to wish you well with this site."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Jul 19, 1997 (09:36)", "body": "I agree with Charlotte being the driving force. From her intros to her sisters\ufffds books and from her letters to Gaskell and from Jane Eyre, who is based on herself, I think she must have been a very strong, determined person, with a huge love for her sisters."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Jul 19, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "Absolutely. All the criticism directed at the \"Bells\" really hurt her, especially after Anne & Emily died, and she tried to show the world a true picture of them with her intro to WH/AGNES GREY. I don't think any of the Brontes would have published without Charlotte at the fore -- it was she who discovered Emily's amazing poetry and persuaded her -- which wasn't easy -- to let it be compiled into a book."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (09:23)", "body": "I think one thing that most people often forget is that Branwell did write something himself. I mean, he wasn`t totally devoid of all feeling or talent, even if he didn\ufffdt have his sisters` genius. The thing was he was wild and somewhat demented-it\ufffds a sad case of wasted talent. But I read that there was a time when he really cared about his sisters and tried to behave. And they loved him dearly too. Having a somewhat oppressive father and a fanatical aunt probably didn\ufffdt help matters at all-he wanted out nd drinking was the only way he knew how."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (11:18)", "body": "There is kind of a revisionist movement afoot to revive poor Branwell's reputation. He mentioned in s letter to a friend that he was working on a novel, & had finished one volume, but I don't think this has ever come to light. By 1848, when Charlotte, Emily, & Anne were publishing, they didn't tell Branwell, because he was so far gone on opium & drink they thought that their success would be like a slap in the face to him. Sad."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (13:00)", "body": "Yeah. Huntingdon from The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is slightly based on Branwell, although Branwell didn\ufffdt have the character`s sadistic nature. Seems that Anne was a governess at the house where Branwell was working (on what, I have no idea; do you, Amy? she worked there, partly to keep an eye on him) and she observed her brother`s friends in their \"activities\", thus gathering information for her novel, which in my opinion is startingly modern in its content. Addiction is, unfortunately, a very modern the e. And even Charlotte felt compelled to explain why her sister\ufffds choice of subject had been unfortunate, which I understand she had to do, although thank God Anne was brave enough to go forward with the TWH!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (20:07)", "body": "Yes, Anne and Branwell both worked in the Robinson home. What happened there is disastrous: it's probable that Branwell had an affair with the married Mrs. Robinson (some biographers think this was only the product of his over-heated imagination, but his paramout seemed to supply him with cash t.o. his life). Anyway, he was dismissed by Mr. Robinson, necessitating Anne's departure as well. The ironic thing about Anne is though she was considered the baby of the family, she was the only sibling who managed to go out into the world and successfully hold down a post for any period of time. Emily couldn't -- every time she left the moors, she practically died from homesickness. And Charlotte was either too nervous or too caught up in her passion for M. Heger in Brussels to be able to be a successful governess/teacher. And I don't think any of them were especially well-suited to care for chil ren!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "rochelle", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (01:44)", "body": "It has always been too easy to slot the Brontes into the categorys you mention. Their father and Aunt Branwell have also suffered from this. Charlotte, of course, is largely responsible for creating the surviving images of her two sisters. She probably did this as a dismayed response to a public that so misundertood the siblings she loved dearly. In doing so, however, she molded them into versions she thought appropriate. For example, her editing of Emily's poetry is outrageous - Emily would never have tolerated it while alive. Emily resisted her older sister's ideas while alive, living her life entirely her own way, and so Charlotte turned her into an \"untutored genius\" when she was dead - to excuse Heathcliffe to an uncomprehending public, she made Emily into an artist who was the slave of her powers and who didn't understand what she had created. A little unfair to Emily as an author."}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (11:38)", "body": "Hi Elena & welcome to this Board! Your erudite comments are much appreciated. Yes, I'm reading Juliet Barker's massive 830 page bio of the Brontes now, and she explodes quite a few of these myths. Turns out that Mr. Bronte was NOT a stiff unbending tyrant -- in fact, he was extremely liberal, supported Catholic Emancipation, the Poor Laws, & revision of the criminal code so that only MURDER would be a hanging offense!!! I have also read of Jane Austen that she was an \"unconscious genius\" who knew not what she wrote. Ha! She was probably the most calculated author in literature. Of course Emily knew exactly what she was doing, as much as Charlotte did. Charlotte also tended to undervalue Anne as well. I have to say though that I don't think C. was acting from any evil impulses -- she was just trying to protect the memories of her beloved sistes. And she herself has been the victim of inaccurate myths through the yea s (as with Mrs. Gaskell, painting her as a 'victim among the tombstones,' which she decidedly was NOT)."}, {"response": 12, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (16:18)", "body": "Just one quick response to something posted above. An intro to Tenant of Wildfell Hall that I saw said that Branwell wasn't the model for Huntington, but for his sad friend Lawrence (addicted, constantly swearing to give up drink or drugs, pining for a love to \"save\" him). Although I'm sure Branwell's behavior while indulging his habits was a role model for most of the men in that novel. Anyway, something to think about."}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (20:17)", "body": "Yeah, Branwell wasn't that far from Lawrence -- he blamed all of HIS troubles on his \"lost love\" Mrs. Robinson, the lady of the house with whom he had an affair when he was a tutor at Thorp Green. And Branwell kept up the fantasy that Mrs. R. was going to marry him, which of course she didn't when her husband died. She went for a rich guy."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 1997 (18:20)", "body": "Just read a rather strange bio on Emily -- Katherine Frank's. HER theory is that Emily was anorexic! Every time she left home, she refused to eat, sickened, & ultimately had to return. I'm not going to deny that Emily suffered from homesickness, but anorexia? This one seems pretty far-fetched to me. Anyone else have any views on this?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (23:46)", "body": "Like I indicated elsewhere, I'm not into this theory. It just doesn't ring true. Charlotte, after having lost both her sisters, believed that while Anne was prepared for an early death (very arguable point), Emily she thought was the strongest. I mean, here's a girl who participated in heavy domestic chores, and then spent her free time roaming around the moors. I know what it is to be intensely homesick - when I was a child, my father had several diplomatic postings overseas and I missed my home bitterly (as in, counsellors wanted to send me home to live with relatives whilst the family was posted for three years in Singapore). The attachment to one location so evident with Emily was similer to what I experienced when younger. With me, it was our home on a cliff overlooking the ocean. And it got worse rather than better over the time I was away. I experienced severe depression, and some psychosomatic illnesses. Given what had happened to her older sisters, it's no wonder Charlotte sent Emily home. But Emily proved she could buckle down when she put her mind to it, although God only knows what personal hell she went through in Brussels. If she had Anorexia, the symptoms were not evident at that time - which is when one would expect them to be visible not only to Charlotte, but to the others that knew her then."}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (14:45)", "body": "I agree -- I think the theory is very modern & has little to do with Emily herself. If she truly -were- anorexic, I think that Charlotte was honest enough to have mentioned it in her letters or even the Biographical Notice. I am now reading Winnifred Gerin's bio of Emily, which strikes me as better & more scholarly."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (20:45)", "body": "My biggest problem with Gerin's biography it the take she has on Emily's death. She is one of the biggest proponents of the idea that WH was the ultimate expression of Emily's creative powers, and having written the book there was little else to say. She believes Emily's inspiration had given out, and Emily was happy to die. \"It might be argued that by 1848 Emily had nothing further to say, that her explorations into the life of the spirit had ended with WH and the preserved poems. Perhaps the truth must be faced that there were no further voyages to make; M Heger's navigator had crossed her last sea.\" I don't buy that at all. As Stevie Davis says, she has a distinct feeling claim like that would not have been made had the unfinished second novel survived. Gerin's main supportive evidence for this claim is lack of surviving material from September 1846 to May 1848, where two versions of `Why Ask to know the Date, the Clime' are all that remain. I hardly think this is enough validate the Emily was happy to die theory. Simply because there is little material doesn't mean nothing was produced. She might have been quite engrossed in the new novel, over which she had been advised to take her time. We wouldn't even know the novel was being written, save for a chance surviving letter. I won't go over the \"who destroyed Emily's work?\" ground again, but someone did. More recent biographers (Chitham and Davies) think it possible that in her very last works Emily was breaking even more innovative, possibly even revolutionary ground. They see her as moving towards a sort of Shellyian stance. There isn't a huge amount of material to support this, but there's just as much as there is for Gerin's views! Oh, and Branwell happened to be killing himself at the time, so that might have been a minor drain on Emily's inventive powers. Charlotte, who produces just about all the information about how Emily died, had a very definite view of the matter. She was quite emphatic, right up to when she herself died, that Emily was torn out of a happy existance. Gerin rejects this because it doesn't fit her theory, deciding Charlotte must have been in denial: \"Stranger still, Charlotte spoke of Emily as `rooted up in the prime of her days, in the promise of her powers - like a tree in full bearing - struck at the root'. Yet Charlotte could produce no evidence to prove her point\". What strange language! Here's poor Charlotte, recording her impressions of the death of a sister she dearly loved, not realising that she had to treat it like a federal case and \"produce evidence to prove her point\"."}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (12:12)", "body": "I agree with you entirely, Elena. The other thing to remember is that Emily was a person separate from her work -- even if, to follow the Gerin theory, WH was her ultimate expression & she never wrote again, this doesn't mean that Emily THE PERSON wanted to die! Maybe she didn't feel like writing again; maybe she was taking a break; maybe, as you say, she was busily working on her 2nd novel. I think these biographers take the \"Emily willed her own death\" tactic because they can't face the fact that this great author was only able to produce one novel before being struck down by an insidious disease. Emily killing herself gives her more \"control\" over her own destiny, but again, if she -had- been given control, there's no doubt in my mind that she would have chosen life. The Gerin theory puts a neat storybook ending on someone dying painfully of T.B. -- it's like saying that Chopin willed hi own death...pretty absurd..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (18:51)", "body": "Absolutely. Emily had no more choice in her death than Maria, Elizabeth or Anne...I won't go out on a limb and add Branwell to that particular list. Biograpthers never seem to declare Anne's early death, from the same cause as Emily's, indicates anything other than what a terrible disease TB is - after all, it is still one of the world's top five causes of death. The point you raise about identifiying an author too closely with their work is an important one, particularly in Emily's case. Her poetry is susceptible to being read like this. Even when a poem is quite catogorically Gondal, biographers desperate for material choose to often read the work as autobiography, referring to specific emotions or incidents that are transposed to a Gondal context. No doubt this is sometimes the case, but how are we to determine that? Some of Emily's poems could be read as autobiographical, until we learn that Anne was writing on the same subject at the same time (eg the captive bird poems). Maybe they both felt the same way. Or just maybe they were writing fiction! This doesn't mean an author's works should be discounted in our perceptions of their life and character by any means. One of the best biographers, Edward Chitham, uses Emily's poetry a bit more often than I'm comfortable with, or at least with some of his conclusions. But when Gerin says that Emily's \"wish to die had been supremely expressed three years before; Emily had envisaged death as an act of daring that could be freely accomplished, given a boldness of mind commensureate to the deed. ...Glad comforter, will I not brave unawed the darkness of the grave? Nay, smile to hear Death's billows rave, My Guide, sustained by thee? The more unjust seems present fate The more my Spirit spings elate Strong in thy strength, to anticipate Rewarding Destiny!\" she is going just a tad too far."}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (20:53)", "body": "I see absolutely no correlation between Emily's poetry and her death as a result of tuberculosis. It seems that drawing an inference between the two is pretty ridiculous, isn't it? Now Robert E. Howard, my pulp hero & creator of CONAN, wrote very gloomy poetry for years celebrating death, and ultimately, he ended up blowing his brains out. So, in THAT case, you can see the connection. But not in Emily's."}, {"response": 21, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, Dec 25, 1997 (06:49)", "body": "Hi, my name is Ri\ufffdtte, and I'm new here. I'm a great Bront\ufffd fan, and just love all the speculation going on about their lives - hopefully it will never cease! All of them fascinate me, but I probably admire Emily just a little bit more than the others. I've often found that biographers are a bit keen on presenting her to the reader as the 'dark' sister, allways a bit morbid and perhaps even a bit perverse. I don't agree with this at all. And, like amy2, I also feel that there is no correlation between her poetry (or 'wuthering heights') and her death from TB. From the various biographies we gather quite clearly that she was at least physically the strongest of the sisters (remeber the incident with the fighting dogs, her rambles on the moors come rain or shine, or her carrying Branwell up to his room after drinking orgies at the Black Bull). But what about emotionally? What I find interesting, is that she seems to have been the only sister who remained close to both her other sister, the father and Branwell all through their lives. Ellen Nussey said she and Anne 'were like twins'; only her love for Charlotte could have moved her to go to Brussels, even though she hated being away from home; she remained close to her father throughout (she was the only one of his children whom he taught how to shoot, which seems pretty irrelevant at first, but if we think that Patrick had a great love of fire-arms, it WAS probably an affectionate act - specially as he was not of a particularly demonstrative nature himself); most importantly, I think, is the fact that she i the only sister who remained close to Branwell. It is quite understandable that Charlotte and Anne gave up on him - after all he did make life hell for everyone under the parsonage roof - but it also says alot about Emily's emotional state. To me it suggests great stability. Some authors just don't seem to want to accept the fact that the women was simply a brilliant dramatist. Imagine what she could have produce today as a playwright! As far as her last days are concerned: I don't think she WILLED her death at all. She must have realized as soon as her symptoms developed, that her illness was terminal, and, being a very intelligent human being, she knew that neither fear, nor denial or any of the other things that must go through the minds of dying people, would save her - she WOULD die. To think about the things she still wanted to do, the people she would leave behind, and all the books she'd never have the chance to write was pe haps so unbearable to her, that she just wanted 'to get it over and done with'. Perhaps she just wanted to die as she had lived: allways in control. Merry Christmas, everyone. Given her circumstances I don't think one could expect Death to play anyting BUT a big role in her writings. She experienced it first hand over and over again - of course it would be imprinted on her mind!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, Dec 25, 1997 (17:13)", "body": "Sorry, people, I'm a rotten typist! The mind is eager, but the fingers falter . . ."}, {"response": 23, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jan  7, 1998 (18:28)", "body": "Riette -- that's a good point you bring up about Emily's emotional strength. She is definitely portrayed as a dark genius in most of the bios I've read -- the emphasis is always on her anti-social nature. I think she was strong, and when she failed, she bitterly disappointed herself (as in having to leave Roe Head & Miss Patchett's). My favorite writing Bronte is Charlotte -- I can relate to her more because I think she made an effort to live in this world & suffer the pangs of love & life which most o the rest of us feel. I also admire her strength of will, flair for poetic prose, and essentially feminist stance. My fiance's favorite is Anne, for her quiet fortitude. We are lucky to have three immortal authors to choose from in the same family, aren't we?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "saranha77", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 2004 (22:32)", "body": "I agree with Riette and Amy on Emily being very strong. Just because she was more introverted and reclusive doesn't mean she was a dark brooding woman with a suicide wish. I think her death was simply that she had been independent during her whole life (in charge of household chores and all) and didn't like to depend on other people. It seems to me that Emily was very practical and steady and she also was a brilliant writer with a strong imagination. I think a lot of biographers overlook the fact that she can be both of those things at once. As for their overall images, I think Charlotte gets a lot of her \"driving force\" fame because she was the one who mostly tried to fit in with the world around them and make a life outside. Probably, she's the reason any of their work got published, for which I am extremely grateful."}, {"response": 25, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jan  1, 2005 (07:31)", "body": "What are some examples of how she tried to fit in? bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 30, "subject": "Mr. Rochester and Blanche Ingram", "response_count": 18, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "I got the impression that the engagement was generally expected but that it wasn't actually formalized -- I could be wrong though. Isn't Blanche just a hateful character? She & her mother remind me of Lady Catherine & Anne de Bourgh, only worse. I love the way Blanche drops Rochester like a hot potato after he floats rumors that his wealth isn't as much as supposed. She's just a superficial, gold-digging twerp!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "classic", "date": "Fri, Aug 29, 1997 (18:31)", "body": "I know. The way she treats Adele and Jane is awful. And the first time i read it, Charlotte had me believing that Rochester really was going to marry her! That does make sense, about the marriage just being supposed. Mrs. Fairfax knew a little about it but it seems that she was the only one. And the part about how Mr. Rochester never visited Miss Ingram after their 'engagement' was strange too."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 29, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "Also -- why did Rochester put Jane through so much hell? Wasn't it apparent to him that she loved him, especially after the \"bed in flames\" incident? I know he was trying to make her jealous, but he really went to some lengths -- pretending he was going to get married & then adopting the disguise of the Gypsy!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "classic", "date": "Sat, Aug 30, 1997 (09:36)", "body": "To me it seemed that Jane didn't do or say anything after the fire incident to convince Rochester that she loved him. She said she had to leave early and made two almost exuses (that she was cold and she heard Mrs. Fairfax.) Of course I don't know what she could have done- it must have been strange for her. So maybe just when Jane was realizing that Rochester must care for her, he himself was going on to 'plan b.'- jealousy. He did put her through a lot- not even looking at her and the whole 'marriage' charade with Blanche. Maybe it was because he had such a hard time with his p evious romances and jealousy."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 30, 1997 (12:18)", "body": "You're right -- Jane was so quite & usually restrained on the outside -- it must have been hard for Rochester to know what she was thinking. And she was smart enough to be very cautious in her replies to the \"Gypsy.\" But it does seem that there was an element of cruelty in the whole Blanche thing I wish he could have spared Jane."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 30, 1997 (12:18)", "body": "You're right -- Jane was so quiet & usually restrained on the outside -- it must have been hard for Rochester to know what she was thinking. And she was smart enough to be very cautious in her replies to the \"Gypsy.\" But it does seem that there was an element of cruelty in the whole Blanche thing I wish he could have spared Jane."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Aug 30, 1997 (17:22)", "body": "I felt that Rochester was trying to provoke a response from Jane. He didn't want to show his own feelings until he had some assurance that she shared them. His actions did seem somewhat cruel, but I think he was determined not to be hurt--or maybe more importantly, humiliated--again. He probably carried things further than he intended because Jane was so stalwart in the face of his efforts. He seemed particularly heartless when he talked with her at such length about her having to take another post somewhere."}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 30, 1997 (21:18)", "body": "Yes, that whole Ireland thing was painful, although Charlotte handled it with very subtle humour on Rochester's part. If Jane hadn't been provoked to blurt her feelings to Rochester in the garden, do you think would he have spoken his heart to her first?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (02:16)", "body": "If Jane hadn't been provoked to blurt her feelings to Rochester in the garden, do you think would he have spoken his heart to her first? I'm inclined to say no, but then what? I think he would have kept asking her questions until his meaning was abundantly clear. He could only have carried on this charade for so long, however, because he obviously didn't intend to really marry Blanche or give up Jane. Would he eventually have broken down, without Jane's doing it first? I guess we'll never know."}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (18:19)", "body": "I actually like Jane making her famous fiery speech to Rochester first -- it really shook the Victorians to their core that a woman should declare her feelings so to a man -- and first, no less!! I personally think that Rochester couldn't have held out forever. If Jane hadn't capitulated, I can definitely see him making a declaration -- he wasn't as circumspect as a Mr. Darcy!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (00:34)", "body": "I personally think that Rochester couldn't have held out forever. I think he would not have let her leave or anything. It's entirely possible that her silence would have driven him to desperation."}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (15:52)", "body": "He also SAYS (at the end) that he would have let Jane leave willingly after the disastrous near-wedding. But I wonder. He was so distraught, I can't imagine he would have really let her go."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Susan", "date": "Fri, Sep 12, 1997 (23:00)", "body": "Yes, *after* the wedding, when she knows about Bertha, he must let her go, but *before*, when he thought he had a chance to win her over, I don't think he would have let her go without revealing his emotions to her. He just wanted her to do it first. ;-)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Sep 13, 1997 (21:36)", "body": "He said that even after she found out about Bertha, he would have let her go willingly & wouldn't have forced her to be his mistress. But he was so out of his mind in this scene, I don't blame her for stealing away in the middle of the night -- he didn't seem too amenable to losing her at that point!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "melissa", "date": "Sun, Mar 15, 1998 (23:55)", "body": "Goodness, these comments are all from last year! But the whole issue with Blanche Ingram sort of distracts the reader from the secret in the attic. At this point in the story, we don't know that Rochester isn't free to marry. The whole time he's assessing Jane's feelings for him, he must be wrestling the demon of knowing he's already married and will put the person he truly cares for in a horrible, unholy position. The flirtation with Blanche helped create the public illusion that he was an available bach lor and helped divert attention from the strange goings-on upstairs. Just a thought. Melissa"}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar 16, 1998 (17:20)", "body": "That's a good theory but I think Rochester's main aim is to make Jane wild with jealousy and to test her love. Charlotte herself was such a wildly jealous person that I could almost see her employing a similar ruse!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "melissa", "date": "Wed, Mar 18, 1998 (01:18)", "body": "Certainly when Timothy Dalton plays Rochester as the gypsy fortune teller he seems desperate to bring Jane's feelings to the surface. It's been years since I saw that version, but his intensity was memorable. And what great lengths to go to in order to suss out Jane's true opinion of him."}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar 19, 1998 (17:10)", "body": "Yes, Rochester really did put himself out on this count. Makes you wonder why he simply didn't ASK her what her feelings her, or would that have been too straightforward for Victorian times? Perhaps he felt that Jane wouldn't give him a straight answer, due to their class differences. . . bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 31, "subject": "Wuthering Heights video release date", "response_count": 62, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 30, 1997 (21:19)", "body": "Thank you for the update, Linda!!! So that's why I haven't been able to find it. I really like these two actors a lot, & I would love to own this version. Fiennes always seems to be playing impassive Englishmen, so it will be interesting to see how he approaches a more passioniate character."}, {"response": 2, "author": "bpwood", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (21:30)", "body": "That version of Wuthering Heights is the same that was on TNT- I taped it from TV and have nearly worn out my poor copy. And I do mean poor- as in quality. However- even with that- Ralph Fiennes has to be the most beautiful- AND the most believable Heathcliff. He is MY Heathcliff anyway. The reason I enjoyed The English Patient so much was the memory of him and Juliete Binoche together as Cathy and Heathcliff, and Catherine and Heathcliff - Binoche plays both. I can't wait to see a good quality tape w thout those looong commercial breaks that TNT does. Though I'm not sure how many more times I could have watched even a good tape without being too obsessed. The music is as haunting and beautiful as Heathcliff himself. And as to being faithful to the book, as soon as I watched this version I re-read the book and did indeed feel it covered the ultimate fate if the Lintons and the Earnshaws fully. Janet Mc Teer(sp) is a grand Nelly Dean- and I've run out of adjectives-- does anyone love this as much as I do?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Sep  2, 1997 (10:27)", "body": "Wow, Barbara, sounds like you LIKED it! I just adore the 2 actors & can't wait to get my hands on a copy! I have to confess, Olivier was so gorgeous as Healthcliff in the 1939 version that he is my current favorite, but Ralph Fiennes isn't too hard on the eyes either... And Binoche is just wonderful. How does she manage playing an English character (she is French??)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "bpwood", "date": "Wed, Sep  3, 1997 (17:05)", "body": "Not only did I like it(WH), I became obsessed with It for a while-- I tend to do that with computer, books, music and movies in my old age. I just turned 52! Ha! Seriously all my children are out of college and out of the house-- therefore I took over the stereo and an empty bedroom and IT'S my haven. TV/VCR always has something I'm obsessed with in-- from the movie & sound track to Farinelli to RF in Wuthering Heights. I went for so many years hearing Prince- Jimi H, and assorted others blasting in my house that I'm due a few years. As to J. Binoche-- until I heard an interview last winter around Oscar time I didn't realise just how much of a French accent comes through naturally. She is quite believable as Cathy and Hana(TEP) the Canadian. I haven't seen her in anything else but I will watch anything now. I think it's the Red of the RW&B movie trilogy she's in. Of course Parade Mag. said before WH was shown on TNT that the male lead was more beautiful than the female lead. Quite true! Those eyes ****"}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep  3, 1997 (17:25)", "body": "I loved FARINELLI -- a very haunting film! Yes, that Ralph Fiennes is a major babe -- I'd like to see him play something other than a repressed Englishman, & this WH may be the trick (I didn't catch STRANGE DAYS). How do they handle Cathy & Heathcliff in their younger days? Younger actors?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "bpwood", "date": "Wed, Sep  3, 1997 (17:48)", "body": "Cathy and Heathcliff as children are of course played by children- which I didn't find too appealing but they are on for such a short while that they don't have much chance to develop any real connection. Just long enough to explain where Heathcliff comes from and everyone's relationship. Shortly after Mr Earnshaw's death JB, RF and JN come in as young Cathy, Heathcliff and Hindley.--- All VERY appealing. I find very interesting the relationship between H and Nelly Dean- she is to me the only mother fi ure he has and the only one who understands and is not afraid of him or repulsed by him - I think she really cares for him (and so does Hareton as he grows up) -- This relationship is played out quite sympathetically in this version. If you haven't seen this WH-- be sure to look closely at the narrator - unnamed in the credits. Very interesting choice."}, {"response": 7, "author": "bpwood", "date": "Wed, Sep  3, 1997 (17:56)", "body": "I might add to my statement about Nelly Dean being the only one who really loved H, before anyone jumps to say that Cathy did- Cathy also loved Cathy and selfishly denied her love for him-\"for the love of a Linton\" even though some of the most heartbreaking lines are those she speaks/and H over hears before he runs away-- the \"I am Heathcliff\" lines to Nelly. She still didn't wait for him---"}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep  3, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "Did Cathy marry Linton strictly for the $$$ & the nice house? Was it wholly a mercenary move? I haven't read the book for so long, I honestly don't remember."}, {"response": 9, "author": "bpwood", "date": "Sun, Sep  7, 1997 (19:42)", "body": "Interesting review in the Richmond(VA) times Dispatch today of A Place to Call Home by Deborah Smith. I am quoting the reviewer Ron Carter \"Scratch the surface of this novel, and you'll find the skeleton of Wuthering Heights with the Yorkshire moors transformed into the GA mountains and the Lintons & Earnshaws into the Sullivans and Maloneys. While in the hands of a lesser writer, this might amount to little more than a cheap trick, DS is able to make it work---------Picture Heathcliff showing up in a t in engine Cessna instead of on horseback, and you've got Roan Sullivan...\" Well Roan the name sounds too too for me but as a whole it sounds interesting. I've had a little computer trouble and didn't resp to Amy's last ques about Cathy's motive for marrying -I guess we all got distracted with the death of Princess Diana. So distressing that nothing else seemed worth thinking about--- Her life story is beyond the sadness and pain of even a Bronte fiction."}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Sep  7, 1997 (20:53)", "body": "Yes, it's hard to concentrate on fiction when this incredible real-life panorama is unfolding before us. I think I answered my own question by finishing WH - seems that Cathy (the Elder's) attraction to Linton was money, Thrushcross Grange, and the feeling that Heathcliff was beneath her, & might never re-appear."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Sun, Sep  7, 1997 (22:00)", "body": "There is, I believe, a frequent misreading of WH, in which it is believed Cathy chose Edgar over Heathcliff. If you read the text, you'll find that Cathy actually intends to love both of them. Her love for Edgar is an attraction of opposites, whereas, of course, Heatcliff's soul is made of the same substance as her own. Cathy quite explicitly states that she does not intend her relationship with Heathcliff to change after her marriage to Edgar. After her illness she declares she is \"past wanting\" Edgar, but that dosn't mean she never loved him - or at least believing she loved him. She might well have confused \"need\" with \"want\", but she intended to be a good wife (arrghhh, horrible phrase) whilst using her new position to help Heathcliff. To Victorian, and indeed to modern sensibilities, this might seem immoral. It is certainly one of the questions about WH - to what degree is the relationship between Heathcliff & Cathy sexual? It has been called curiously sexless. At any rate, Edgar and Healthcliff were hardly in concurance with Cathy's plans, and the resulting conflict, both between them and within herself, leads to her death."}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Sep  8, 1997 (10:52)", "body": "I noticed the almost complete lack of sex in the novel too, Elena. Especially when young women are imprisoned in WH with Heathcliff & Hareton (Young Catherine; Isabella; even Nelly Dean). Linton is of course a sexless creature. I had a strange reaction after re-reading the book -- the brutality of charactesr & events almost made me physically ill. I could barely even retain my old sympathy for Catherine the Elder. My question to you is: what is the appeal of WH? What do you think Emily's aim was in writing it? Did she have one? I'm really curious to know. Thanks!!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "bpwood", "date": "Mon, Sep  8, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "I suppose Cathy does love Edgar-- yet my sympathy in the story was never with anyone but Heathcliff. The victim of so many circumstances beyond his control, he must have thought life would be so good when Mr. Earnshaw becomes his protector-- then that ends so suddenly---Cathy and Nelly are his only family. Cathy proclaims that Heathcliff is her soul-- yet hurts him so horribly. I think I always felt Heathcliff's pain and understood why he could be so cruel. I have said before too that Nelly Dean seems to just accept him for who and what he is-- knowing why -- Probably Heathcliff saw also that Linton's appeal to Cathy was money-- why else would he have come back with a fortune and continue to deceive and connive to get the Linton and Earnshaw fortunes as his own. Yet the poor man never gets Cathy and dies alone. Heartbreaking-- to a romantic like me--- That too is why the face of Ralph Fiennes fit perfectly into my image of Heathcliff."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Sep  8, 1997 (19:02)", "body": "I guess what disturbed me this time around was Heathcliff's treatment of the next generation. His callous attitude toward Isabella; his keeping Hareton as an unlettered savage; his contriving to marry off Young C. to Linton just so he can get their $$$; his unending hatred of Linton, a basically harmless fellow; all of this started to weight on me -- I actually had a feeling of impending doom as I was reading, since you know exactly what \"the fiend\" is going to do next. I too really get into the Cathy/H athcliff love story, but the utter brutality of Heathcliff after her death & his treatment of others did remind me of Milton's Satan -- he doesn't seem like anything human. The book never had this effect on me before -- maybe it was just the mood I was in, with Di's funeral and all..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Sep  9, 1997 (20:43)", "body": "Or does Heathcliff die alone without Cathy? \"I hasped the window; I combed his black long hair from his forehead; I tried to close his eyes - to extinguish, if possible, that frightful, life-like gaze of exultation, before any one else beheld it. They would not shut - they seemed to sneer at my attempts, and his parted lips, and sharp, white teeth sneered too!\" I feel Emily left the question of what happened to Cathy and Heathcliff very open. The ending is exquisite , where Lockwood wonders how \"anyone could ever imagine unquiet slumbers, for the sleepers in that quiet earth\", but it is ironic. Of course you can imagine unquiet sleep for those two! Indeed, in her delirium Cathy tells Heathcliff to follow her beyond the grave, and imagines he tells her to come to him instead. When she dies, he begs her to haunt him. The haunting is not resolved with Heathcliff's death, either. Emily provides us with two possible endings - they either rest in peace, or walk the earth as the country folk and Joeseph believe. Amy, I know what you mean about the savage, ominous impact of the book. What I'll never forget is my reaction to Lockwood rubbing Cathy's ghost's wrist across the broken glass until blood poured down the window - and he's the mildest character in the book! Even passive Isabella is capable of using her nails to good effect.I've cited part of a Virginia Woolf review under another heading that begins to approach what I believe the appeal of WH is."}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Sep 10, 1997 (10:40)", "body": "Elena -- yes, the brutality of the \"ghost\" scene is one of the most disturbing. I like to think, of course, that Cathy & Heathcliff did walk the moors together, and that her ghost did haunt him -- perhaps even for the 18 years he was left on earth without her? As you say, Emily's passage at the end of the book about this is unclear. If not, Heathcliff went to a great deal of trouble to torture a lot of people for nothing. My own sense is that they DID walk the earth together -- since Emily's sympathies seem to be w. Heathcliff, and she considered Earth superior to Heaven. I hope o, anyway..."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Oct 16, 1997 (21:03)", "body": "Ghosts certainly wandered about the place in the Gondal cycle - they haunt the places they loved in life, they even appear and deliver ominous warnings. Gothic convention? Amazing, when you look at the plot elements, just how many of the gothic trappings are present in the novels. Ghosts, love beyond the grave, mad wives in the attic, characters with dark and mysterious pasts... The Gothic novel is largely a female genre, and an interesting area of study in its own right. But the overall impression you gain from the Bronte novels is NOT that they are throwbacks to that earlier era. And while you might see \"Frankenstein\" and even \"Dracula\" grouped with \"The Caste of Ontranto\" and \"The Monk\", no one ever seems to suggest JE belongs in a group so successfully satirised in \"Northanger Abby\""}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Oct 17, 1997 (10:10)", "body": "Exactly -- no Fanny Burneys here! I like the way that the Brontes weave Gothic elements into an otherwise -realistic- plot. I think that's what differentiates their work from FRANKENSTEIN & DRACULA, which are wholly Gothic works whose settings don't seem to be the real world at all."}, {"response": 19, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Fri, Oct 17, 1997 (12:11)", "body": "Digressing a lot from the topic, but have any of you seen the episode of the TV series \"Highlander\" which explains Mary Shelly's Frankenstein novel as the result of her meeting with an immortal being? It was a fairly successful interpretation of her novel (vs. movie versions) and lots of fun. OK, I do know this isn't the TV conference!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Oct 19, 1997 (12:44)", "body": "No, I missed that -- sounds like a fun premise. I really loved the first HIGHLANDER film -- I was at Fox when we released it & I was totally blown away at an advance screening. Since I'm a huge Queen fan, this was a big plus for me too. How is the series, and who plays the Highlander? I hope it's not a HERCULES & XENA type of experience!!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (15:15)", "body": "No, it's very much like the atmosphere of the first movie -- EXCEPT that in a series, you get to see a lighter side to immortality, too. And we see less of the gruesome head-chopping scenes, too, which doesn't bother me at all. Adrian Paul is Duncan Macleod. There are some other \"regular\" immortals, too, and my favorite (the one I watch to drool on) is the character of Methos. He has been a semi-regular for a few years now (evidently other people find him as interesting as I do), but was just added to the opening credits this season. I tell you this to explain how it is that I don't know the proper name of someone I drool over. Of course, you could just assume that I'm foggy on realities and you wouldn't be far off the mark. Much better at loving a character than loving an actor. Although my husband is an actor (no, you wouldn't recognize his name). Maybe that's why-- I keep the actor and the character he/she plays very separate in my mind. Anyway, thanks for being kind about my need to insert some Highlander drooling in the Bronte conference. Lorie"}, {"response": 22, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (16:24)", "body": "No problem! When does HIGHLANDER the series air? Sounds pretty interesting & I did love the first film so...though HIGHLANDER II was pretty darned bad. My friend wanted to hurt me for dragging her to that one...."}, {"response": 23, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "Oh, and I forgot to mention that there is still Queen music, too, which we love. Highlander is a syndicated series, so it's not easy to tell you when/where it airs. In Chicago, it's on Channel 50 WPWR, Saturdays at 9 PM. However, the reruns air on USA, a cable channel, weeknights at 6 central. Good luck finding it. There are videos of the first couple of seasons, including the first episode which features the Highlander from the first movie (kind of passing the sword/torch). However, like most TV sh ws the first season is background but doesn't get into the interesting ideas and fun concepts. Oh, by the way, my actor whose name I couldn't remember is Peter Wingfield (I think). Lorie PS I have only seen the first movie, none of the movie sequels. For TV, the special effects are pretty good. Compared to a movie, probably pretty lame. But friends of mine who aren't sci-fi fans and found the show enjoy it. I hope you do, too."}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (12:36)", "body": "Sounds interesting. Yes, the film sequels to HIGHLANDER were dreadful, though I really like Christopher Lambert -- he has such an enticing STARE, doesn't he? I will look through my TV TIMES & see if I can find the show in L.A. - they have to hit the #2 market in the country, you would think!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (17:21)", "body": "Oh, don't get me started here about men with interesting eyes. That's what drool is for! I hope you can find the show. After thinking more about this, in some markets here in the midwest it is carried on WGN. The problem with TV is the same thing that makes it better -- there are too many stations, too many choices. Of course, without those would we be getting all these cool Jane Austen and Bronte dramatizations? Of course not. And a show like Highlander, which I believe is Canadian in origin, might not be seen here at all."}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (19:43)", "body": "I'm glad we have A&E, despite the odious recent \"Jane Eyre.\" But I'll forgive them due to the great excellence of their P&P (which was shot by the BBC, of course)."}, {"response": 27, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Wed, Oct 22, 1997 (16:36)", "body": "Boy, Jane Eyre was a disappointment, wasn't it? I didn't see it until last night, but I was very disappointed in all the missing characters, scenes, etc. The only change I can approve was Mrs. Fairfax's role, which finally got to be a little more sympathetic/interesting. But some of the dialog was just horribly wrong for something called \"Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre,\" wasn't it? Why not call it \"A&E's Jane Eyre\" if your script takes that many liberties? Particularly disappointing was the Moor House section. Why oh why do all adaptations think the fact of Jane becoming independently wealthy and finding her own people is unimportant? There's more to grouse about, but I'll leave some for the rest of you! Lorie"}, {"response": 28, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Oct 22, 1997 (19:12)", "body": "Don't get me started! I've already posted my rant to the Bronte list. Here it is: Well.... Here's a harsh critique from someone in the industry -- I must say I thoroughly loathed this recent production of \"Jane Eyre\" & couldn't make it past the first 1/2 hour... My problems with the show: 1) Invented dialog. This reminds me of a friend who wrote a whole script for a TV show & they ended up using four of his lines. I'm sure Charlotte must feel the same way. I listened desperately for original dialogue from the book & it was scant indeed - in fact, entire scenes were invented out of whole cloth (plot was the same/dialogue had all been replaced). Was there something wrong with Charlotte's original dialogue? It struck me as a damned sight better than the dumbed-down lines we were handed last night.. 2) Poor direction. Moving the camera for no reason whatsoever. The silly Red Room intro. which played more like Halloween Haunt at Universal Studios... 3) Voiceovers. Usually the kiss of death -- they slow down the plot & remove you from the action. Here, they were used as idiot prompts: \"I was very happy here.\" Or TOLD us about other characters instead of showing us!! 4) Truncated length. Yes, Helen was dead 10 minutes in & Jane at Thornfield 15 minutes in & seeing Bertha her first night there. So many plot omissions at Gateshead & Lowood that nothing made sense anymore... 4) Ciaran Hinds. His look was bad; his acting was over-the-top. 5) Sam Morton. She was pleasant enough, but I don't think Jane would have smiled slyly before being intro'd to Rochester. Where was the contrast bet. the prim exterior & the heart on fire? I really think that Zelah Clarke captured this much better. 6) Change of setting. WHY would Jane have been crawling around mists in a river to fell Rochester's horse? Was she a mermaid? In sum....blech. This was -not- \"Charlotte Bronte's\" Jane Eyre. It was somebody else's who had no respect for Charlotte or her work. I still think the BBC version with Tim Dalton is the best we have. Adaptations like the one last night will ultimately hurt the book, because those who haven't read it think that they've seen \"Jane Eyre.\" Which they haven't. ----"}, {"response": 29, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "YES! Thank you for saying Cirian was over the top so that I won't be the only one being crucified by the fans over in drool. I actually read posts that said people fell for him after seeing this version of Jane Eyre!!!;-Q (That's a mouth wide in amazement with a tongue out from saying \"bleech!\") I did like Cirian Hinds in Persuasion, but felt that he was overly made up, overly weird (none of Rochester's lines were from the book, were they?), and that he was always contorting his mouth in an effort to Act. Again, bleech!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (12:56)", "body": "Oh, I had to rant a little more. Why do they even bother putting in anything about Jane's childhood when they're going to rush through it like that and not really tie any of it in? And the dialogue!!! (amy2) It struck me as a damned sight better than the dumbed-down lines we were handed last night.. Yes, yes, yes! What was with the prudish \"I can't\" when Rochester asked for her hand after the bed-burning? So often they seemed to miss the spirit of a scene and the point of it all. I read critics who felt that this Jane spoke up for herself more. It seemed to me that all she did was whine more and ask more questions, not really show any of Jane's originality."}, {"response": 31, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (14:20)", "body": "I didn't make it that far - I CAN'T BELIEVE they moved up the Proposal scene to the bed-burning incident!! I agree with you about Gateshead & Lowood -- why even bother if you're going to race through in 10 minutes? And everything was so changed (Jane making her \"I hate you\" speech in front of Brocklehurst, for example) that OF COURSE, he's going to attack her publicly once she gets to Lowood! In the book, the charge was that she was A LIAR -- again, never mentioned in this truncated production!! I also was a big Ciaran Hinds fan from PERSUASION & IVANHOE -- I thought he was just marvelous as Bois-Guilbert in the latter -- but yes, his look was repellent & he clearly hadn't read the book. I go back to my contention that this was the worst adaptation of a literary work I have ever seen. In the past, producers like David O. Selznick recognized the value of staying true to a well-loved novel (GONE WITH THE WIND comes to mind). I'm not saying you have to be slavishly faithful to the text, but for G d's sake, use SOME of the original dialogue! What was so wrong with Charlotte's that it all had to be replaced by weaker, less poetic lines? This whole show was so ill-conceived I still can't believe it!! I did see a promo for A&E's TOM JONES though (with our own Mr. Bennet, Benjamin Whittrow, in the cast) & it looked good. A&E definitely needs to redeem itself in my eyes...."}, {"response": 32, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (20:11)", "body": "I've finally bought the 1992 WH version and watched it for the first time - alone late at night with just the dogs and a few rum and cokes. I hadn't seen it before now because I have been utterly unimpressed with the versions that have thus far made it to screen (and for the equally sensible reason that I hadn't been able to find a copy of it). So who walks up on screen but Emily! Uhm, I'll assume it was Emily. As has been pointed out, she goes unnamed in the credits. Anyway, she usurps Nelly's role as narrator. An odd choice. Emily went out of the way to absent herself as an authorial voice in the text - no \"Dear reader\" for her, or any other salutation. She looked Emilyish, though. No problems with the casting (I mean that, even though I suppose I'd be lynched if I indicated otherwise on this page!) Camerawork good, music better. They even came close accurately depicting the scene with Lockwood rubbing Cathy's ghost's hand across the broken glass (betcha they'll never really show that scene. One-hundred and fifty years later and people still shy away from aspects of WH). But it didn't sing for me. None of them ever have. They seem to pick up superficial aspects of the text, and reduce it to plot elements. At least this one went a bit further in adapting junks of dialogue than past token efforts at the occasional \"Nelly, I am Heathcliff\" lines. There was even a vague sort of recognition that scenes of their childhood have a significance in the glimpse we catch of Cathy's ghost as a child at the end. Emily had a reason for having Cathy return to haunt the hights as the ghost of a child! Childhood lost haunts them in their adult lives. At least it didn't have an absurd ending like the Laurence Olivier version - he's dead....no, they have only just begun to live! And off they go into the driven snow. Hear that spinning sound? That's Emily in her grave! I think people will always shrink from the power of WH, while they are attracted to the more romantic elements. So film producers will take what they can, tone down the rest, and thus continue to bowlderise the greatest novel in the English language."}, {"response": 33, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "Absolutely. In fact, that \"happy ghost\" ending was added to the 1939 version of WH -against- the wishes of the director, William Wyler. We have Samuel Goldwyn to thank for that one. . . I think that most people have a misconception about what WH is. It is NOT merely a great romance -- I don't think that moviegoers are aware of the brutal, disturbing, almost Satanic elements in the book. And most film versions of WH focus entirely on the Heathcliff/Cathy romance angle, ignoring completely the next generation, which is like what? -- at least half the book?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (18:01)", "body": "I didn't know that about the ending of the 1939 version. It was just so absurd it coloured the rest of the movie for me. The \"Mills and Boom\" rendition of the novel is very frustrating, because it shortchanges Emily's vision alarmingly. It's interesting to note that as the 19th Century progressed the minor literary scene was littered with wannabe Rochesters and to a lesser extent Heathcliffes. The trend continues to this day. It's evidence of people responding to the power of these works, but some of the knockoffs and interpretations are just so laughable..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (19:56)", "body": "You could almost say that Charlotte & Emily inspired women's romance fiction as we know it today. Just to play devil's advocate as far as the ending of the '39 WH: IF Emily didn't believe that Catherine & Heathcliff were quiet sleepers in that earth, then did SHE have a vision of their roaming the moors together? Or if C. & H. they still walk, was she thinking of an otherworldly context? I wonder..."}, {"response": 36, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (15:54)", "body": "The amount of superstition in the family is worth a look, isn't it? We know that Charlotte refers to Bessie in JE telling stories of local haunts (Jane initially thinks Pilot is an apparition, tho I forget the name). Was this based on Tabby or someone else in the household who told such \"forbidden\" (by the very religious Aunt) stories? And despite religious beliefs that hold such superstitions wrong, how much did any of them believe what they'd been told? Speaking as someone raised in a religious AND superstitious family, I know that even as you mature, some of the things you're told as a child are still very vivid. Of course, the book's final line would seem to quash the question. But it ISN'T Emily narrating, is it? It isn't even someone she admires."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "I think I've mentioned before that one of the memorable aspects of WH is the fact that it refuses closure...unless you want it. Emily offers that ending, a beautifully poetic and resonant ending, and you can take that if you like. But there is the other interpretation, that they walk, and that is equally valid. There is even an irony in asking how anyone could imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth. Well, of course you can imagine it! Like the dream/vision of Cathy's ghost...is it bad tea and bad temper, or is it her? Emily, as usual, lets you choose your own path. She gives you nothing on a platter. The conclusion to the 1939 is too explicit, too...well, corny. It looks like a very bizarre version of the happy ending. The film really couldn't conclude with the lovers united in life, so they unite them in death. While the idea of Cathy and Healthcliffe still walking the earth finds its origin in the novel, the movie lacks all deftness in dealing with the suggestion. A movie might not be able to acheive the subtle ambiguities of a novel, but this was as understated as a sledgehammer. Even my father, a lover of old movies and a fan of Olivier, said he laughed as a boy watching that. One of the few aspects of the Dalton version that I liked were the glimpses of Cathy in white, flitting over the dark moors, at the end of the story. It's a shame it condensed the timeframe so much that you didn't get a sense of a man haunted for twenty years. Emily was comfortable with Gothic conventions - she seems to have had an affinity with Sturm und Drang, and the \"mad methodist\" magazines of her Aunt Branwell. Combine that with the tales of Tabby and her own Celtic heritage, and the supernatural in her work comes as no surprise. Ghosts are quite common in the Gondal cycle. I think she favoured the supernatural alternatives in her novel, but provided other explanations for the less mystical among her potential readership. I've always been mesmerised by the little clues she left as to how it all fits together, and how we should read it. Lockwood sees Cathy's ghost as a child. Cathy, when she's delirious, wishes to be a girl again. At the same time she imagine she sees her window at the Heights where Joeseph has left a candle for her. Does she somehow see, or project herself into, the future haunting at the Heights while she is still alive, and - through her illness - more aware of the non-physical plane? She speaks to Heatcliffe, who is not there, saying that if he ventures to the graveyard she will keep him and not rest until he is with her. This is precisely what happens...he ventures, and she will not rest. How could Heatcliffe have known she had made that declaration?"}, {"response": 38, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (18:52)", "body": "I see your point about the '39 WH ending, Elena. No, you certainly couldn't say it was subtle, but Emily certainly leaves the reunion of Heathcliff & Cathy up in the air in those ambiguous lines at the end of the book. Remember too that it is LOCKWOOD speaking, & he throws his own particular slant upon their ultimate fates. We don't know whether he's serious or being sardonic..."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Sun, Nov 23, 1997 (17:32)", "body": "Rereading WH yesterday down at the beach - one of the dozen or so editions of the book I have goes with me everywhere - I was struck anew by the choices Emily made in who narrated her novel. Lockwood really is an unperceptive fop, and Nelly a nasty, talebearing piece of work. No wonder they got along so well. I've almost come round to the extreme view that Nelly is the villain of the novel. I think Emily wanted us to dig for the story, to interpret what we were hearing from the narrators."}, {"response": 40, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (11:29)", "body": "Some people on the Bronte list were also bandying about the idea that Nelly is a villain. And Lockwood really is dense, isn't he? To the extend that he toys with getting involved with Young Cathy while knowing (most) of Heathcliff's history. Scary!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (22:26)", "body": "I used to think the idea was too extreme. Now, the Nelly as villain idea is becoming more and more appealing!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (11:45)", "body": "I never liked her because she effectively let Cathy Sr. die by pooh-poohing her illness. That really turned the tide for me."}, {"response": 43, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (16:05)", "body": "Certainly Nellie can be seen as helping along the disaster, rather than truly helping her mistress. Why, except financially, would she be siding with newcomer Linton rather than taking the side of someone she grew up with? Yes, she's not the innocent she claims."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (00:56)", "body": "Yes, that whole taking the Lintons' part in everything got to me, too. Did anyone else sense she was jealous of Cathy? And even knowing how abominably Hindley treated Hareton, she still thinks of him as a lost sheep, while Healthcliffe is the wolf circling between him and the fold. Heathcliffe is certainly wolfish, but Hindley is at least as wayward, only he is weak. Even Isabella, in her foolishness, is forgiven and still loved. Her dislike for Cathy shines through her entire narrative."}, {"response": 45, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "Do you think that Nellie has it out for Young Cathy as well? She certainly turns a blind eye to Heathcliff's machinations to marry her off...."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Dec  2, 1997 (23:34)", "body": "I don't think she was as responsible as she should have been. After all, she was in charge of a naive young girl. I think Nelly spent a good portion of the narrative justifying her actions and attitudes. She doesn't exactly accept responsibility for her mistakes."}, {"response": 47, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Dec  3, 1997 (17:53)", "body": "That's true. She does spend quite a bit of time justifying herself to Lockwood. And she never really takes responsibility for Cathy I's death after she dismissed her symptoms as a \"snit.\""}, {"response": 48, "author": "melissa", "date": "Mon, Mar 16, 1998 (00:48)", "body": "This whole discussion reads like a good book club meeting! I have a bad habit of taking the narrator's word as truth when I read a book and not looking beyond that for other motives (which is why I have yet to figure out an Agatha Christie plot). I'm reading WH for my book club this month and Cathy's just died. But now I have a new angle on Nelly to carry through the rest of the book. In Nelly's defense, though, she's lived with Cathy for a long time and has seen her manipulate people. She may not have realized Cathy would go this far to prove a point. I can't think of a soul who could throw a fit that would prove ultimately fatal. Thanks for the insight! Melissa"}, {"response": 49, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 17, 1998 (11:22)", "body": "Yes, that whole \"dying for love\" thing reminds me of a medieval 'romans'! Like poor Elaine of Astolat pining away for her Lancelot. . . I tend not to like Nelly -- I don't trust her. I think she may be an example of an unreliable narrator."}, {"response": 50, "author": "melissa", "date": "Wed, Mar 18, 1998 (01:26)", "body": "She does seem to throw in several comments about herself that are not flattering, though, and that seems to give her more credence. She often wonders that she may be to blame for some of the trouble. So I can see her as unreliable better than I can see her as diabolical. I wonder if she was jealous of Catherine (the elder)? We never hear about her love life, although she's referred to as Mrs. Dean. It certainly doesn't seem that she herself pined for Heathcliff or Edgar, but maybe watching one petulant wo an fawned over by two men was a bit much for her. Anyway, I know that many times when one member of an elderly married couple dies, the other soon follows, so I can believe in dying of a broken heart. Cathy just seemed to destroy herself out of spite to make the men suffer. I'd like to count the number of times the word \"suffer\" appears in the text -- quite a vindictive bunch of folks for such a small town."}, {"response": 51, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar 19, 1998 (17:13)", "body": "Yes. I thought that Cathy the Elder's death was taken a bit too much from literature and not enough from real life -- women pining away for love until they cause their own death is like something out of a medieval tale to me. And why did Cathy -really- destroy herself? Simply to prevent a quarrel bet. Edgar & Heathcliff? Or was it because she couldn't choose? She came off like an overgrown, petulant child to me, but perhaps this was Emily's point. . ."}, {"response": 52, "author": "melissa", "date": "Fri, Mar 20, 1998 (00:59)", "body": "Someone has put forth a theory about the significance of all these characters being raised without mothers. So for Cathy to fit that mold, Catherine had to die. Still, you'd think she'd throw herself from the Crags instead of missing a few meals and losing her mind. She certainly had no regard for her unborn child, and never seemed to mention it. Can you imagine what that mother/daughter relationship would have been like? And I still have a hard time believing that Heathcliff could inflict so much pain on Catherine's child, no matter who the father was. I guess that just drives home the point that their passion had absolutely no regard for ANYONE else or anyone else's rules."}, {"response": 53, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Mar 20, 1998 (13:08)", "body": "I too found it odd that Heathcliff could be so cruelly manipulative toward his Great Love's progeny. Didn't he see Cathy I in her? I also particularly hated the way he dealt with Hareton and Linton the younger. . ."}, {"response": 54, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Thu, Mar 26, 1998 (14:01)", "body": "Hi everyone I don't have anything too profound to say except that I too thought this film was excellent. I felt it captured the \"hauntingness\" of the novel and Ralph Fiennes was absolutely gorgeous and entirely believable as Heathcliff. I thought Binoche excellent too. The music was so eerie. Does anyone know if this is available on CD? Mamie ps who was the narrator?"}, {"response": 55, "author": "merry", "date": "Mon, Mar 30, 1998 (13:09)", "body": "Mamie, You can order the cd online from I.D. International Disc (based out of North Carolina, I believe); the e-mail address is idintl@worldnet.att.net, and the total cost of the cd with shipping is around $33. It's a Japanese import, so it will take a while to get there, but I imagine it will be well worth it (mine is on the way). I assume you are talking about the character I took to be Emily Bronte when you say \"the narrator\"; if it is voiced by the same person that played her, I believe the woman in question is Sinead O'Connor, of all people. Her performance was uncredited, but I remember having read somewhere that she was Emily Bronte in the movie. -Merry"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Molina", "date": "Mon, Mar 30, 1998 (15:14)", "body": "Yes, Emily Bronte is played by Sinead O'Connor. I saw it on the internet movie Database file on the film. Thanks for the info on where I can buy the soundtrack. I've been looking for it forever. I thought it didn't exist."}, {"response": 57, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Mon, Mar 30, 1998 (15:30)", "body": "Hi Merry (& Anne) Thanks for all the info. I live in England so the price etc will be different. I'll mail that company anyway as you've been kind enough to include their email address. Enjoy your CD when it arrives! Sinead O'Connor must have had to wear a wig or grow her hair. The last time I saw a picture of her she was bald!!! Mamie"}, {"response": 58, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Apr  1, 1998 (18:30)", "body": "Wow, Sinead O'Connor as Emily! Sounds like it's worth renting just for this!!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Sat, Apr  4, 1998 (10:41)", "body": "Hi Amy I'm sure you'd like this version. By the way there is another new version of WH on the telly tomorrow night. I'm sure I'll be glued to the screen. I'll let you know what it's like. Mamie"}, {"response": 60, "author": "Molina", "date": "Sat, Apr  4, 1998 (23:33)", "body": "Yes, the the Ralph Fiennes version of Wuthering Heights is wonderful. My copy is my most prizes possession, despite the fact that I've watched it so many times my copy is starting to degrade."}, {"response": 61, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Sat, Apr  4, 1998 (23:33)", "body": "Hi everyone Well I saw the ITV version on the telly the other week and was not at all impressed. How do you get to see these versions in america? Mamie"}, {"response": 62, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (08:42)", "body": "Any reports on this video? bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 32, "subject": "Princess Diana dies in car crash at age 36", "response_count": 68, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (02:35)", "body": "DIANA: I still to this day find the interest daunting and phenomenal, because I actually don't like being the centre of attention. When I have my public duties, I understand that when I get out the car I'm being photographed, but actually it's now when I go out of my door, my front door, I'm being photographed. I never know where a lens is going to be. A normal day would be followed by four cars; a normal day would come back to my car and find six freelance photographers jumping around me. Some people would say, Well, if you had a policeman it would make it easier. It doesn't at all. They've decided that I'm still a product, after 15, 16 years, that sells well, and they all shout at me, telling me that: `Oh, come on, Di, look up. If you give us a picture I can get my children to a better school.' And, you know, you can laugh it off. But you get that the whole time. It's quite difficult."}, {"response": 2, "author": "kili1", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (05:27)", "body": "The invasion of Princess Diana's personal life by the relentlessness of the paparazzi is appalling. It is with deep regret that the world has lost one of its brightest stars as a direct result of the greed of the \"media\". Isn't it a a shame that only after such a tragedy, laws will be enacted to curtail this type of \"stalking\". God Bless the Princess of Wales and her family, especially her two sons William & Harry."}, {"response": 3, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (05:53)", "body": "One story relating to this is that the crowd beat up one of the photographers taking pictures without offering help. What a tragedy if gruesome pictures of a sticken Di reach the tabloids. Hard to say what was going on inside that Mercedes, that one report says was speeding at 120 mph. But it seems likely they were trying to shake off these relentless paparatzi. Laws should be passed to restrict this kind of media stalking, kili1."}, {"response": 4, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (09:25)", "body": "Apparently, four of the papparrazi are going to be charged with manslaughter. Possibly one of the flashes from cameras may have blined the driver. The car hit a pillar in the middle of the road. Diana's brother said that every news media person pursuing here has \"blood on his hands today.\""}, {"response": 5, "author": "RMVOLTESV", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (11:52)", "body": "PAPPARAZI SHOULD BE PROSUCUTED AND PUT TO DEATH"}, {"response": 6, "author": "MemorialNet", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "[WWW, Aug 31, 1997] - Memorial.Net opens a permanent public memorial for Princess Diana. By visting the web site: http://www.memorial.net/diana you can view, and POST a memorial for the late Princess Diana. The site is designed to be a lasting reminder of someone who has effected the world, and became \"the world's most photographed woman\" (in addition to other titles!). There is no charge to post or vist the site, and the site is not transitory, it will remain active forever."}, {"response": 7, "author": "robc", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (12:13)", "body": "The Los Angeles Times has put together a comprehensive package of information composed of staff reports, wire services and other information on the life and death of Princess Diana. Point your browser to http://www.latimes.com to see our overall Diana package. We will have our continual coverage on our site over the next week. Thank you for your consideration. --Rob. Rob Cioe Electronic Editor Los Angeles Times rob.cioe@latimes.com http://www.latimes.com 213-237-7002"}, {"response": 8, "author": "arthur", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (12:23)", "body": "SUCH A LOSS FOR SO MANY PEOPLE. WE SHALL MISS HER. SHE DESERVED TO BE HAPPY. IT'S A SHEME! PRESS'S WRIGTHS HAS LIMITS!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "arthur", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (12:23)", "body": "SUCH A LOSS FOR SO MANY PEOPLE. WE SHALL MISS HER. SHE DESERVED TO BE HAPPY. IT'S A SHAME! PRESS'S WRIGTHS HAS LIMITS!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "watcher", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (12:59)", "body": "Has anyone reading this ever tried to take a picture in a tunnel at night while driving a motorcycle moving at 120 mph??? Who would believe that there were 7 people doing this? I wonder how accidental this accident was."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Moonchild", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (13:26)", "body": "Diana's grace, kindness and compassion will not soon be forgotten. The world will be in a state of mourning. Her life was a tragic one, and she deserved far more than she got. the only possible comfort in this whole trsgic situation is that perhaps she has found peace. My thoughts and prayers go out to her children and to her family. I hope that the Royal family will contine the work that Diana started and to honor to her memory."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Nurun", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (14:02)", "body": "Diana's life and work gave joy to millions. Her death, sadness to more. Her spirit will live forever."}, {"response": 13, "author": "perk", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (15:31)", "body": "I am sorry to see such a beautiful and caring person taken from us. Now she will have the peace she deserves. Rest in peace Diana, the people will miss you."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Clarissa", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (16:20)", "body": "I will admit that I don't know much about Princess Diana. I was only 2 years old when she married Prince Charles and recieved the title in 1981. However, from what I know about her, I view her as a caring, loving, and beautiful woman. She had a soul of a savior by helping people in need. Princess Di was a well known woman to everyone of various age groups world wide. I view some of the paparazi as sick individuals with no moral respect whatsoever. Especially the individual who attempted to take photos of the accident, and got mobbed by people mourning the scene. Aren't these reporters feeling guilty at all of what they've caused already? Without them chasing the mercedes, all in the vehicle would be alive and well. We should all give suppo t to her family, especially her two young sons William and Harry. I hope that paparazi will learn from this accident that Enough is Enough. Princess Di's loving soul will live forever in the hearts of people everywhere. I have hope for the future that with all of Diana's help with charities, people will follow her and help those in need. A tradgity...though a loving soul that will never be forgotten."}, {"response": 15, "author": "LeAnne", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (17:17)", "body": "I was very saddened by the death of Princess Diana, the paparazzi who stalked her should be punished by the most severe means available. Diana was a public figure but she was also a human being who deserved to be treated with the same respect as \"normal\" people. The world has suffered a tragic loss and my prayers are with her sons. GOD BLESS THE CHILDREN!!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (17:45)", "body": "I just caught an NBC bulletin that the Publisher of the Inquirer is asking for a world wide ban on buying the crash scene pictures. They're already on the market for sale. There were pictures taken before the police arrive and the crowd beat up the papparazi taking them."}, {"response": 17, "author": "tkroll", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (17:58)", "body": "My personal opinion is that any of the paparazi whom would endanger the lives of others like they did in this high-speed chase, should recieve the same kind of punishment that the party they were chasing recieved as a result of just trying to evade the press. For instance, when Princess Diana (may she rest in peace was killed in that auto accident, the paparazi that were in pursuit of a quick buck should also be put to death. They should be put to death by stoning by the public. Just my thoughts. May Princess Diana rest in peace."}, {"response": 18, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "Five photographers were taken into custody by French police for their involvement. One guy was taking pictures with a commercial camera 15 seconds after the accident happened, according to the BBC. Diana single handedly gave a measure of respect to the dysfunctional royal family. She carried on a mission to help people with AIDS, homeless people and her travels highlighted trouble spots around the world. Her presence lent credence and sustained these causes. Do you feel, like I do, that these good qualities of hers came to the fore in her untimely death. I find myself feeling a true kinship with her now that I never realized while she was alive. I was most profoundly affected by seeing the pictures of her with Mother Theresa, who I greatly admire. The Royal Palace set up an official condolences website at http://www.Royal.gov.uk The Red Cross has declared that the recent advances in the campaign against landmines were largely the result of Diana's public visits to Angola and Bosnia. AIDS charities say she is irreplaceable. She broke Royal tradition by touching and coming in to close contract with people stricken with AIDS and deadly diseases. Unlike the Quen and Prince, who lead insular lives. Someone said that had she lived she would have become a mix of Audrey Hepburn and Eleanor Roosevelt, I agree. Perhaps through a little of Mother Theresa and Jackie Onassis into the mix. The dysfunctioning Royal family owes her a Royal Funeral with a week of resting in State for the dignity and grace she has brought to them. Hopefully, Charles can take up a cause or two on her behalf instead of carrying on with a life of polo and weekend excursions and affairs out of his marriage. Hopefully, Diana has brought the kids to a state where he can't mess them up too much. If you have to cry over this, let it rip. Diana is deserving of our tears and our respect."}, {"response": 19, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (22:22)", "body": "A very good exposition on the paparzzi is on Robert Aldridge's site: http://webflier.com/WebPilot/Articles/diana.shtml Amond other things, he states: \"the children of this very nice woman are now going to have to live the rest of their lives not seeking the advice of their mother. They will not have her there to scold them when they do something wrong, or to kiss them good night, ever again. They will not see their mother's joy when they are at the altar getting married, or for her grand children. They will not have a mother to fuss over them before the prom. And all of this was caused by some idiots' greed for that one photo that could turn the heads of the world and put big bucks in their pockets.\" And he has created a Ban paparazzi logo that he encourages folks to use on his website."}, {"response": 20, "author": "QuietStorm", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (23:48)", "body": "I know others have touched on this topic, and I mean in no way to trivialise Diana's death, but, really, what about the children? Robert Aldridge said it beautifully and that is the main focus of my thoughts in these times. Diana was a generous, kind, dedicated person, living a life to help the lives of the less fortunate. Yes, the media has become a rampaging bull who, as an infant, was controllable, but now has matured into a greedy, ruthless and near unstoppable force. But for William and Harry, none of this means anything to them. They have prematurely lost a mother. *Their* mother. By whatever circumstances, by whoever is to blame, it is a tragic and always terrible loss. They have barely begun to live, and they have suffered more, have been put through more, and *will* suffer more, then many other people together. Age wise, I confess to being barely older than William, and maybe that is why I feel so strongly about this. By birthright, they are robbed of their personal dreams, their youth, their anonymity, their margin of human error, normal friendships, relationships and life. And now, their mother. So whatever they are going through now, especially William who holds a greater weight on his shoulders than most of us could imagine, my thoughts and consolations are with them. May they one day, like their mother, find true happiness before they die."}, {"response": 21, "author": "1400", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (02:17)", "body": "We have also created an interesting message and discussion board. Please feel free to use it at your convenience. It's at href=\"http://www.icom.com/diana/\">http://www.icom.com/diana/ ."}, {"response": 22, "author": "rivoli", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (02:18)", "body": "It is being suggested that the bodt meeting in Ottawa in two weeks adopt a unilateral ban on land-mines, and name the treaty after Diana. I propose a petition to that effect. Let her not have died in vain."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Shringer", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (02:29)", "body": "I want to give the families of all the people involved in the car carsh on France my deepest sympathies. I pray for the families of both the driver and Princess Di's boyfriend. It seems that they have not been given much attention. We have to remember that there were two other people besides Princess Di that perished in the accident. Iam also apalled at the fact that the press is treating the situation as a criminal act. This is something her family does not need especially her two sons. May she and her f mily and the other families be in \"peace\"!!!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (09:04)", "body": "These other victims deserve our prayers and thoughts as well. And one of the victims, who is still alive, may live to tell the story of what happened in that tunnel that night. She outwitted the Royal family of England and raised her kids with compassion and caring. Against the royal families advice, she put them in a less staid school and took them to visit AIDS patients. She was a loving mother who cared about her children. The royal family doesn't show emotion. They don't touch other people. Diana broke with tradition and reached out to folks. Her lineage goes back to King James and King Charles I. She was chosen at 19 years old to become Charles wife to insure succession. If you look at the videos of her going through hospitals and AIDS clinics you got the feeling that she wasn't just doing a photo op, you got the feeling that she was truly involved with these people. I just saw a video of her in a childrens hospital and she stopped and looked at the board, noticed a piece was missing and reached down to the floor to replace it. The little boy was beaming with joy and she bent over to hug him. As far as the paparrazi, some laws need to be made to protect celebreties and they also need to exercise caution in evading and countering them. Perhaps, at this point, Charles should tell the Archbishop of Canterbury to take a hike, his faith has faded in to obscurity. After a number of years and Diana has received her due respect, he should be free to remarry. It's possible that Charles decieved Diana into marrying without know about Camilla, but we don't know all the facts in this do we? And, as a man, I can't hide the fact that she was one of the most desireable women in the world, she was someone you would die to meet and to get to know. She was tall, slim and had this demure mystique about her. She appeared to be someone who would be easy to get along with. Boycott the sale of tabloids. When you go through the checkout line at the supermarket, give a letter to the checkout person that says you object to the sale of publications that support lies and stalking of people."}, {"response": 25, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (09:25)", "body": "I heard from Robert Aldridge today, one of the people organizing the tabloid ban. A few posts back I quoted him but when I copied and pasted it, the credit line dropped out, and there is a nice link and a link back to http://www.webflier.com along with the quote that I didn't include. Apologies Robert for my hastiness and sloppiness in that post. Also. the use of the ban paparazzi logo was intended to be used by others and we intend to use it in some context here on the Spring, perhaps on our main page. Folks should feel free to copy the GIF off of Roberts site, or link directly to the GIF on his server. Either way. If you link directly to the GIF on Roberts server, please use the GIF at http://www.webflier.com/cgi-bin/diana.pl Please link the GIF either to http://www.webflier.com or http://www.webflier.com/WebPilot/Articles/diana.shtml . You may choose which. Robert will probably expand on this topic further and such, and linking will give people a place to go to view the various different things/protests, etc. not to mention share their feelings and read others. Robert says he may be adjusting the GIF to read \"Can the Paparazzi\" or something like this. He would like to make it more specific to Paparazzi and not make it sound as broad as applying to all media. At any rate, we gladly join with you Robert Aldridge in your tabloid ban. We'll keep watching your site."}, {"response": 26, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (10:29)", "body": "This just in from CNN. Now we have a drunk limo driver. And passengers not wearing seatbelts. I wonder what the guy who is in the hospital's saying, he had to be in the front seat."}, {"response": 27, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (10:56)", "body": "To add to the above, apparently the driver was a former Air Force pilot and was trained by Mercedes Benz, according the an ABC news flash. He knew how to drive. But his alcohol level may have been very high. There was a duplicate topic created and only one response was posted, so I am moving it here Item 22 entered Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (17:48) by L de Sousa (lies) PRINCESS DI MURDERED! PRINCESS DI WAS MURDERED BY THE ROYAL GOON SQUAD! WHAT A CONVENIENT AND BELIEVABLE WAY TO GET RID OF HER. WHO WERE THESE SO-CALLED PAPARAZZI/HIT MEN, AND WHAT POWERS THAT BE WERE BEHIND THIS? ACCIDENT? I DON'T THINK SO. COMMENTS ANYONE? My comment, this is highly speculative. As are the websites saying that they \"guaranteed\" that Princess Diana would die several weeks ago. And this goes for all the conspiracy theories. All this stuff seems groundless and highly speculative. Show me some hard evidence. The paparazzi are definitely not off the hook. There's going to be an annoucement by the French Police in an hour about whether they will be released or charged within an hour."}, {"response": 28, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (11:10)", "body": "Dave Bailey recommends these newsgroups for more news : alt.journalism.criticism alt.politics.media alt.activism Those paparazzi will be charged with failure to aid at the scene of an accident, unconfirmed."}, {"response": 29, "author": "rhass", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (12:00)", "body": "What do you think will happen to the royal family? Respond by E-mailing me at rhass@ix.netcom.com"}, {"response": 30, "author": "leungs", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (12:20)", "body": "I know the truth!! Princes Di was taken by Alien to the fifth dimension of our solar system!!!!!!!!She now lives with Elive and and very happy........ Does anyone know where I could get a good second hand Mercedes ????"}, {"response": 31, "author": "azimi", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (13:20)", "body": "Princess Diana was not taken by aliens"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Luminator", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (13:30)", "body": "This is all a conspiracy. Princess Diana did not die but decided that if she was dead then no one would bug her anymore. She is living a new life and with a new identity. The reason she spent a while at the Hospital is that she was changing her whole identity, just like Face-Off. PS. She should have driven a SAAB or Volvo instead."}, {"response": 33, "author": "XTABLOID", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (13:41)", "body": "I urge a national boycott against the sale of tabloids in honor of Princess Diana beginning the day of her funeral . I am looking for help in distributing flyers as well as picketing at the airport against the sale of tabloids. If anyone would be interested in helping, please e-mail me at: XTABLOID @AOL.com. or call 512-288-4596. Thank You, Yolanda Stobaugh"}, {"response": 34, "author": "WalterH", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (14:30)", "body": "Four of the main pages regarding the death of Princess Diana are coming together and joining forces. Together, we will be an awesome force in our crusade to stop the paparazzi. You can visit the site by clicking on the \"Stop the paparazzi\" button in the main screen of www.spring.com, or go directly to the page by going to http://www.meer.net/~walterh/privacy.html Thank you! Walter H. Hopgood, walterh@squidge.org"}, {"response": 35, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (15:22)", "body": "We'll actually be setting up a permanent Diana page where you can find the 'stop papparzzi' button at http://www.spring.com/dian.a.html And it's good to see a hometown effort! Good work."}, {"response": 36, "author": "findbeanie", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (15:23)", "body": "All kids can send condolences directly to Buckingham Palace, or just Chat about Diana by clicking here . This site offers a chance for children to deal with the untimely death psychologically. This site was voted the hottest childrens shopping site on the internet last week by Starting Point. Thousands of kids monthly come to this site!! We'll give reciprocal links to other sites of this kind!! Email me, FINDBEANIE@AOL.COM for more information!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "carlisle", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (17:36)", "body": "PAVANNE Play Ravel. The princess now has died. We've always wondered who she was, and now We know and know not still. We have no way Of knowing whom to mourn. How do you grieve The stuff of tabloids and the TV news? I've fathered daughters and I think I know A princess when I see one. That she was. And sons I have too, little princes once. The mother now has died. I know that grief-- To lose the only one who understands. I am a husband, too, and have a woman Who has borne sons and has borne again. Whom does he grieve when her he's thrust away? How does he sorrow for her that he shamed? And now that she is dead, is he a man? The paparazzi told us who she was, Will tell us who she was again, again, Again. Can we believe them now that they Have killed the goose that laid their golden eggs? Or can we ever trust their words again? It was our voyeurism killed the princess, Killed we know not whom, deprived her children Of their mother. God forgive our greed. Jesus was right, \"Father, forgive them, for They know not what they do. He died; she died. ................................... Arthur B. Devlin August 31, 1997 [adevlin@blomand.net]"}, {"response": 38, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  1, 1997 (19:23)", "body": "I asked Susan Sweeney for permission to reprint the following story. On this visit, Diana stopped and touched each little child with cerebral palsy and only gave a nod to the wealthy and titled visitors at the program. Discovering New Hope http://www.ieway.com/~ssweeney/article.html By Jamie Tobias Neely Staffwriter Mother and daughter want more children to have the option to try Conductive Education The story of 11-year-old Susanna Sweeney-Martini's trip to England to meet the princess begins like a fairy tale. There was the moment Princess Di's green Jaguar turned through the gate of the National Institute of Conductive Education in Birmingham and roared onto the grounds. There was the moment the princess wafted into the room \"like a piece of paper floating in the air \" There was the instant that Di hoisted a baby from the crowd to her shoulder and didn't flinch a royal eyelash when he drooled all over her designer suit. But in the unexpected moment when Princess Diana walked right over and sat down to talk with Susanna and her mother, Susan Sweeney of Spokane, real life and controversy intervened. Princess Diana asked why one of her pet projects, Conductive Education, for children such as Susanna with cerebral palsy, was having such a difficult time taking off in the United States. The answers point to a global dispute over the proper treatment for children with cerebral palsy and, at the same time, illuminate the struggle of one determined mother from Spokane. It all began in 1991 when Susan Sweeney, a Spokane special education teacher and lawyer, took her daughter to Hungary for Conductive Education. Doctors had predicted Susanna would never sit, stand or walk. She had been strapped in a wheelchair from age 2. Finally, in Hungary, Susanna and her mother found hard work, and a miracle. At the Peto Institute in Budapest Susanna learned to sit, stand and take a few steps alone. When she returned, her pediatrician, Dr. Peter Holden, pronounced the results \"dramatic.\" Susan Sweeney struggled to find ways to continue Susanna's treatment in the United States. Most doctors, physical therapists and contacts at the national cerebral palsy organization weren't interested. When Susan said, Can I have more? the world said, \" No\" Susan does not take \"no for an answer,\" says Thomas Martini, Susanna's father and Sweeney's ex-husband. In the years since Susanna's trip to Hungary, Susan Sweeney has fought a lack of money and information to start the Association for Conductive Education. She has opened a private school modeled after the Hungarian institute here in Spokane. \"If she couldn't bring Susanna to the mountain, she's bringing the mountain to Spokane, rock by rock,\" Martini said. Today, blue-eyed, blond Susanna is as bright and articulate as her lawyer mother. The two have appeared on national television, and are among America's leading advocates of conductive education. That's why, when the National Institute of Conductive Education dedicated a new building in Birmingham, England, this fall, Susanna was invited to speak. Susanna's parents and brother flew with her to England where, on Oct. 31, she spoke in front of Princess Di and other gathered dignitaries. Susanna said, \"I hope in the future children in America will be able to have conductive education like children in England have.\" Conductive education was developed hidden behind the Iron Curtain in post-war Hungary. Americans tend to accept the limitations of cerebral palsy and have developed high-tech wheelchairs and computers to help children adapt. But the cash-poor Hungarians could not afford this approach. Instead they trained teachers, called conductors, to actually teach children to walk. They used small wooden furniture, stories and songs to cue the children's bodies to move properly. Children with cerebral palsy in the United States might see a physical therapist once a week. The therapist manipulates their bodies to prevent them from becoming stiff. But in Hungary, the children spend six hours a day learning to move their arms and legs themselves. It wasn't until the 1980s that the outside world began to hear of the Hungarian approach. It's now available in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Israel, Austria, New Zealand and Canada. But it's nearly impossible to find in the United States. One of the few American schools is Sweeney's, located in a daylight basement on Spokane's North Side. For five summers, Sweeney has flown a Hungarian teacher to Spokane to duplicate the training Susanna received in Budapest. The children made progress during the summer, but as with any fitness regimen, they lost ground through inactivity during the school year. This fall, Sweeney began an after-school program for eight children that will continue their gains through the school year. It's been a remarkable accomplishment, given the typically American indifference to education and health care developed outside of this country. Sweeney has been particularly frustrate"}, {"response": 39, "author": "weetbix", "date": "Tue, Sep  2, 1997 (02:09)", "body": "While I am extremely upset at the death of Diana I can only wonder, and have said ever since the accident, that while the papparazzi have to accept a large part of the blame for Dianas unhappiness in life and for her death, the fact remains that the driver of the car should not have endangered his employers by driving in such a manner, regardless of their wishes. His profession ( and mine, I am an australian cab driver ) is reliant on being able to perform our duties without endangering ourselves or other and as it has now come out, he should not have even been in the drivers seat. I hate to say it but both Diana and Dodi did contribute to their own deaths by allowing him to drive them at all. From reports of his B.A.C. his drunkeness should have been obvious and personally I will not let anyone drive with me in the car if they have had even one drink let alone the amount he musrt have consumed, so their decision to get in that car was, without hindsight even, was stupid. My sympathies lie with her belove sons who now have to face a life without the most important person to them, their doting mother,"}, {"response": 40, "author": "shalom", "date": "Tue, Sep  2, 1997 (04:32)", "body": "It is always sad when a kind, generous and warm hearted mum dies and leaves behind children. It is even more of a saddness when the parents are no longer in unison through divorce separation on even a previous death of one of the parents. Every day such occurrences are happening to unfamed mothers..., every day hundreds of children are dying because of an uncaring world. Does the media spend days and days on the sadness !! and draw out attention to the sorrow ??? A true reflection of peoples feelings, those who want to share their sympathy and saddness would not to have spent the thousands of dollars on flowers(much to the pleasure of the florist) but to give it as a donation in the memory of Diana to one of the many charities she sponsored."}, {"response": 41, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Sep  2, 1997 (05:49)", "body": "Diana's funeral will be like none other in British royal history. There may be an outpouring of sentiment from people with AIDS, homeless people, and others. It will be an unprecedented event. The first tabloid pictures of Diana at the crash scene have been published by http://www.bild.de . Write to der bild, a German tabloid, and tell them you no longer support their publication."}, {"response": 42, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Sep  2, 1997 (16:55)", "body": "To quote airman (airman@well.com): That is it. We are covering old ground. It's time to do this by the numbers.... In the future we can simply refer to a number to assign blame. So we have the following list of suspects to blame as cited in various sources on the WELL, in the media and on the street 1. The Paparazzi who chased her 2. The Editors who buy Paparazzi pictures 3. The People who buy the tabloids 4. The Driver who was drunk and speeding 5. Her Boyfriend who was famous and infamous 6. Di, for using the press and not using seatbelts 7. The Media who is saintly invoking the Free Speech mantra 8. The Royal Family for wrecking her life 9. Mercedes for building a tank that could go 120 mph 10. The Motorcycles for really being annoying 11. Dino Delaurentis for inventing the Paparazzo 12. The Masses of People behaving like \"Day of the LOcust\""}, {"response": 43, "author": "BobbyJr", "date": "Tue, Sep  2, 1997 (19:31)", "body": "We are all to blame for this and similar tragedies. We are blood thirsty animals parading around in the guise of humanity. If the people were not interested in filth and tragedy others would not serve it to us thus the need for vampirous photographers (loose term) would not exist."}, {"response": 44, "author": "friend", "date": "Wed, Sep  3, 1997 (01:28)", "body": "For Those who Loved Diana, Please visit www.deliveryking.com"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Stefen", "date": "Wed, Sep  3, 1997 (09:54)", "body": "Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone, Silence the pianos and with a muffled drum, Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come. Let aeroplances circle moaning overhead, Scribbling on the sky the message \"She is Dead\", Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves, Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves. She was our North, our South, our East and West, Our working week and our Sunday rest, Our noon, our midnight, our talk, our song; We thought that love would last forever: We were wrong. The stars are not wanted now; put out every one; Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun; Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood; For nothing now can ever come to any good. W.H. Auden"}, {"response": 46, "author": "friend", "date": "Wed, Sep  3, 1997 (22:02)", "body": "Just a little something to remember Lady Diana, Princess of Wales. Queen of Hearts. http://www.deliveryking.com"}, {"response": 47, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (16:59)", "body": "I am also very sorry about Diana's tragic death. It seems there were several factors involved -- not just the paparazzi, but the limo driver going way too fast & being legally drunk. Before we leap all over the press, let's remember that what we know of Diana -- the reason she is in fact so popular -- was brought to us courtesy of journalists & photographers. Not the sleazy supermarket stuff, but the coverage of her charitable trips abroad, etc. In any case, she will be greatly missed, & Prince Willia has some very big shoes to fill."}, {"response": 48, "author": "BobbyJr", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (18:48)", "body": "I saw a small story yesterday about a white buffalo calf being born and the indian myth surrounding such an event. The story is interesting to me in that from the buffalo comes a princess to usher in 600 years of unprecidented world peace. Would it not be a great tribute to Diana if the world could see the loss we have all suffered and allow her to become that peace bearing princess we all so need."}, {"response": 49, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "Sometimes in our rush to lay blame we forget that Diana was, as Amy said, a creation of her photographs. The blame is multifaceted and includes so many factors. And William does have a major burden to bear, hopefully he will carry Diana's charitable, selfless spirit into his kingship some day."}, {"response": 50, "author": "thomas5", "date": "Thu, Sep  4, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "You can tell a lot about society by the people it respects, and the current obsession with Diana death shows a society that is clearly uneasy with itself. Diana was no JFK, Luther King or Ghandi. She was never elected to anything, and never made one memorable speech. If holding few charity balls or selling some glad rags (that she never paid for in the first place) is all it takes to make you a 'great humanitarian' then people must have little respect for humanity. In any other time Diana would be seen as a rather pathetic creature who could not handle the stresses of private and public life. Yet today. 'admitting' that we can't cope is what we are told we should aspire to and 'what made Diana so great'. Well I'm sorry, but I can't imagine Elizabeth the First saying \"oh its just too much pressure\" when the Spanish Armada was about to destroy her Kingdom, and Queen Victoria never seemed to develop any eating disorders despite having the largest empire in the world and the loss of her 'beloved Alfred'. It seems the days of expecting great things from our leaders are over, and if people expect nothing of their leaders then they must expect even less of themselves."}, {"response": 52, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Sep  6, 1997 (16:43)", "body": "Diana's brothers eulogy was stark and revealing about the conditions of Diana's life and her place in history. He put a lot of things in their place, including the assembled royal family. I think this should be the lead story in tonights evening news. By the way, thanks to everyone posting here for the overwhelming response."}, {"response": 53, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Sep  6, 1997 (19:14)", "body": "Spring's headline today: \"like a candle in the wind\" Earl Spencer told the world his views of the press, the way her sons would be raised by his side of the family, and about Diana's insecurities and eating disorders. In front of the Queen and Queen Mother he described how she wanted to bid farewell to England. He told of the irony that Diana the name of the huntress in mythology was the most hunted person in the word (by the ravenous media). He laid it on the line like only a brother could and the ripples of applause and shock that reverberated throughout England and the world and made their way back through the staid, royal audience in the church. The Elton John phrase is pretty much in line with (jonl) 's comments. She's to be buried on an island in the middle of a lake. Kind of reminds me of the place where I lived in Dogtown, California years ago."}, {"response": 54, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Sep  6, 1997 (19:19)", "body": "The full text of Earl Spencer's eulogy to Princess Diana: \ufffd \ufffdI STAND BEFORE YOU today the representative of a family in grief, in a country in mourning before a world in shock. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdWe are all united not only in our desire to pay our respects to Diana but rather in our need to do so. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdFor such was her extraordinary appeal that the tens of millions of people taking part in this service all over the world via television and radio who never actually met her, feel that they, too, lost someone close to them in the early hours of Sunday morning. It is a more remarkable tribute to Diana than I can ever hope to offer her today. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdDiana was the very essence of compassion, of duty, of style, of beauty. All over the world she was a symbol of selfless humanity, a standard-bearer for the rights of the truly downtrodden, a truly British girl who transcended nationality, someone with a natural nobility who was classless, who proved in the last year that she needed no royal title to continue to generate her particular brand of magic. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdToday is our chance to say thank you for the way you brightened our lives, even though God granted you but half a life. We will all feel cheated that you were taken from us so young and yet we must learn to be grateful that you came along at all. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdOnly now you are gone do we truly appreciate what we are now without and we want you to know that life without you is very, very difficult. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdWe have all despaired at our loss over the past week and only the strength of the message you gave us through your years of giving has afforded us the strength to move forward. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdThere is a temptation to rush to canonize your memory. There is no need to do so. You stand tall enough as a human being of unique qualities not to need to be seen as a saint. Indeed to sanctify your memory would be to miss out on the very core of your being, your wonderfully mischievous sense of humor with the laugh that bent you double, your joy for life transmitted wherever you took your smile, and the sparkle in those unforgettable eyes, your boundless energy which you could barely contain. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdBut your greatest gift was your intuition, and it was a gift you used wisely. This is what underpinned all your wonderful attributes. And if we look to analyze what it was about you that had such a wide appeal, we find it in your instinctive feel for what was really important in all our lives. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdWithout your God-given sensitivity, we would be immersed in greater ignorance at the anguish of AIDS and HIV sufferers, the plight of the homeless, the isolation of lepers, the random destruction of land mines. Diana explained to me once that it was her innermost feelings of suffering that made it possible for her to connect with her constituency of the rejected. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdAnd here we come to another truth about her. For all the status, the glamour, the applause, Diana remained throughout a very insecure person at heart, almost childlike in her desire to do good for others so she could release herself from deep feelings of unworthiness of which her eating disorders were merely a symptom. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdThe world sensed this part of her character and cherished her for her vulnerability, whilst admiring her for her honesty. The last time I saw Diana was on July the first, her birthday, in London, when typically she was not taking time to celebrate her special day with friends but was guest of honor at a charity fund-raising evening. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdShe sparkled of course, but I would rather cherish the days I spent with her in March when she came to visit me and my children in our home in South Africa. I am proud of the fact that apart from when she was on public display meeting President Mandela, we managed to contrive to stop the ever-resent paparazzi from getting a single picture of her. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdThat meant a lot to her. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdThese are days I will always treasure. It was as if wed been transported back to our childhood, when we spent such an enormous amount of time together, the two youngest in the family. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdFundamentally she hadnt changed at all from the big sister who mothered me as a baby, fought with me at school and endured those long train journeys between our parents homes with me at weekends. It is a tribute to her level-headedness and strength that despite the most bizarre life imaginable after her childhood, she remained intact, true to herself. I dont think she ever understood why her genuinely good intentions were sneered at by the media. ... My own ... explanation is that genuine goodness is threatening to those at the opposite end of the moral spectrum. EARL SPENCER \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdThere is no doubt that she was looking for a new direction in her life at this time. She talked endlessly of getting away from England, mainly because of the treatment she received at the hands of the newspapers. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffdI dont think she ever understood why her genuinely good intentions were sneered at by the media, why there appeared to b"}, {"response": 55, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Sep  7, 1997 (00:14)", "body": "Mother Teresa and Princess Diana met in Rome five years ago and then in New York in June. Mother Teresa said, just before she died Friday, that Princess Diana was a good friend \"in love with the poor, a very good wife, a very good mother.\" \"She was very concerned for the poor. She was very anxious to do something for them,\" Mother Teresa said. \"This is why she was close to me.\" I was first exposed to Mother Teresa on the Farm in Tennessee, where Stephen and the Farm folks idolized her and spoke of her often. Mother Teresa founded the Missionaries of Charity to help Calcutta's sick and destitute. A 1969 BBC documentary detailing her mission brought her international fame. By 1975, she was in Time magazine in a story entitled, \"Living Saints, Messengers of Hope in Our time.\" In 1979, she won the Nobel Peace Prize, using the $192,000 award to further her work. It was a contrast and an alliance of anomalies: the tall, stunning Princess and the short hunched over Catholic nun. The $50,000 Dior outfit and the $1 sari. Yet they complemented each other and the photographs of them together said more to help the poor and the disenfranchised than volumes of words. It is fitting that they both died within days of each other."}, {"response": 56, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Sep  7, 1997 (01:20)", "body": "The death of Mother Theresa is an immense loss for humanity. She was a living example of the human capacity to generate infinite love, compassion and altruism. Her work and life embodied these noble and universal human values for people all over the world across the barriers of race, nationality, culture and religion. Today's world requires us to realise and accept the oneness of humanity and develop a sense of universal responsibility and caring. Although mordern science and technology had made greate contributions in solving many of mankind's problems, it is obvious that the challenges and issues faced by the global community today require us to cultivate not only the rational mind but also the other faculties of the human spirit; the power of love, compassion and solidarity. Mother Theresa was a towering embodiment of this human spirit and her great compassion an inspiring example of the true essence and potential of spiritual life. The Dalai Lama"}, {"response": 57, "author": "doug", "date": "Sun, Sep  7, 1997 (04:36)", "body": "All of this has an air of incredibility, its hard to believe that the world has lost to completely special people. As for the paparazzi, they should be publically humiliated so everyone knows exactly who they are, so they can be chastised by there own industry. I heard a report from a I witness that they saw flashes from cameras as the car was crashing! The same witness said the wreck was caused by a motorcycle that cut in front of the car forcing the car into the pillars in the middle of the tunnel. T e two riders on that bike should be hung from a tree in the middle of Pickadilly Square! One of my writers was so moved by the death of Diana that she was compelled to write an editorial from a mothers point of view. Please come by to read it, over 500 people have read it since the 3rd. http://www.capitol-city.com Another writer sent ma a pointed editorial as well it can also be found at Capitol-city A&E Magazine. Stop the Paparazzi!!!!! It gives us real photographersa real bad name!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "doug", "date": "Sun, Sep  7, 1997 (04:38)", "body": "Is there any trees in Pickadilly Square?"}, {"response": 59, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  8, 1997 (20:29)", "body": "I got an incredible letter from Earl Spencer's neighbor in South Africa today. I hope he allows me to reprint it. I have written him for permission. It is very profound."}, {"response": 60, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  8, 1997 (23:55)", "body": "Received from Grant Pollard, Earl Spencers neighbor in S Africa You seem to have made quite a considerable contribution to this site. I am in South Africa and live just down the road from Princess Diana's brother. I happened to catch the CNN and BBC news flash that Diana had been involved in an accident and stayed up the whole night awaiting developments as they happened. It was a devastating experience for reasons beyond the obvious that even I cannot explain. I was as shattered by Diana's passing as I was by my own Mother's death by suicide when I was 15. My empathy with the young princes was natural. I phoned relatives in London who were amongst the first to deliver flowers to Diana's home and delivered a boquet of flowers from my own garden very early on Sunday morning to Earl Spencer's home. Here I was unfortunately accosted by the world's media and extensively reported upon in both local and international papers and TV. A few remarks: Have there been any paint marks found on either the car-wreck or a motor cycle to indicated any contact? The Paris road engineers ought to be hung for not providing any crash barriers along the concrete columns.........they are natural death traps and this would have been foreseen in any other country! 8 glasses of wine for a Frenchman is not \"drunk\". It's normal! Had he not been distracted or otherwise diverted the party would have gotten home 120mph in a Merc 600 on an empty double carriage way is not fast! Photographers should be governed by similar rules to sex. If the subject says \"NO\" it means no and any further advances become criminal. Given the tragedy as a fait accomplis, it could not have turned out better! Diana would not have wanted to survive with all the others dead. Dodi would certainly not have enjoyed surviving Diana and all the accusations that would have been levelled at him. The driver would certainly not have enjoyed surviving. But the body-gaurd has lived as a wittness. I hope the powers that be realise the danger he is in as the only real wittness and also ensure that his testimony is not influenced by being allowed to be exposed to any of the speculation that has been going on. His testimony HAS to be fresh and un-influenced to be worh a damn. God rest your blessed soul Diana and God help you Prince William!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 10, 1997 (19:21)", "body": "More from Grant Pollard, Earl's nighbor in South Africa. > Thanks for your reply Terry. Yes you may quote me. I'll offer a little something extra for an inteligent mind to take for a little walk. Each may draw their own conclusions according to their personal persuasions but why did Princess Diana die at exactly the right moment in time? As it is, Diana died without a single adverse comment about her personally or her work emerging from any paper, person or country. (Brave the person who tried right now!) The work Diana was possibly sent to do was done! The many wheels she set in motion are not going to stop simply because she is gone, in fact her work will quite possibly continue gathering momentum BECAUSE she is gone. Diana's children are both old enough to have formed the characters and attributes she wished for them to have. Had Diana survived even another day the speculation about her spending the night in Dodi's house alone would have gone mad. This would have alienated all the holders of moral high ground, a very large chunk of the world! Had she survived a few more months she was quite probably going to marry Dodi. This would have caused a catastrophic rift between Moslem and Christian, a rift she had up until then managed to bridge and a rift that is bad enough without being exasserbated! Had she survived a little longer we might have seen Moslem children forming part of the Royal Family which would have been an enormous technical hitch causing yet more fragmentation amongst her people. The disintigration of Diana's quite extraordinary mission to all the peoples who now so sincerely mourn her being taken from us would have continued at every turn in this dreadful world of prejudice and tradition. Sad as it may seem (for us) Diana died at just the moment she was supposed to, happy and preserved in our minds for ever just as she was!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Sep 11, 1997 (17:08)", "body": "Thanks for the info, Terry. It is true that Diana's life and death could have been viewed quite differently had she died earlier or later. I suppose that \"higher powers\" have their plans and that what appears to most of us as a life cut tragicly short can be the full life the person was intended to live. My mother-in-law, who is a shut-in, has been living by her television since this happened and seems to be taking Diana's death harder than she might that of a close friend or relative. How much of the public grief expressed over Diana's death do you think was media-made? In other words, if the television wasn't showing us lines of mourners waiting to offer flowers and sign condolence books, do you think the public outpouring of grief would have been as large? Particularly in this country (I can underst nd it among the British)?"}, {"response": 63, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep 11, 1997 (21:12)", "body": "As this event starts to fade in this country, I hear that in France and Britain this is still very much in the forefront. Thanks to all the folks who have posted in this topic and those who have granted reprint permission is in order. Many lonely people need events like these to fill their lives, the OJ trial did this for many people for months on end. It is good that many of Diana's charities will be much better off now because of the interest she created and the efforts to support them now in her memory."}, {"response": 64, "author": "BobbyJr", "date": "Mon, Sep 15, 1997 (19:32)", "body": "I know that it is idealistic to expect people to become more than they are because of the loss of Diana, whether paparazzi or intoxicated driver. But would'nt it be great if we could all show each other as much love as she showed us."}, {"response": 65, "author": "legaffe", "date": "Tue, Oct  7, 1997 (23:00)", "body": "What is the address of your new Diana page?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Oct 18, 1997 (18:39)", "body": "So now Prince Charles is taking Prince Harry to see the Spice Girls in concert in S Africa, looks like he's trying to pick up for Diana."}, {"response": 67, "author": "legaffe", "date": "Sat, Nov  8, 1997 (18:45)", "body": "Looks like it."}, {"response": 68, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (09:42)", "body": "Isn't this the one year anniversery?"}, {"response": 69, "author": "cfadm", "date": "Sat, Mar  5, 2005 (14:37)", "body": "Princess Di Crash Revisited Just when Camilla Parker Bowles thought she was going to get her day in the royal sun, a new investigation into the crash that killed Princess Di seven years ago is threatening to steal her spotlight. Also, after acting indignant about Chancellor Schroeder's suggestions for NATO reforms, the alliance's chief apparently agrees with him. The (Not Quite) Royal Charlie Brown AP Investigators on Tuesday closed down the Pont d'Alma tunnel once again to reinvestigate the crash that killed Princess Diana. Camilla Parker Bowles is the ultimate Charlie Brown. The poor woman never seems to get a break. She's carried on a 35-year-old relationship with Prince Charles, undeniably the love of her life, and now -- finally -- after years of being scoffed at by the royal family and lambasted by the British public who much preferred their beloved \"Queen of Hearts,\" Lady Diana -- she is set to have her big day. A few days ago, she and Charles broke their surprising news that they will wed. Even more stunningly, not only the Queen, but also the public seem to be giving their grudging nod to what for Camilla will be a belated fairy tale come true. But now, during her week of glee, Camilla's rival has again reared her long-dead, but never-forgotten glamorous blonde head. British investigators have begun a new hunt for clues to Diana's death in a Paris car crash seven years ago. The crash has already been analyzed more times than anyone cares to count by French police, who ultimately concluded that the driver, Henri Paul was drunk and driving at a high speed when he crashed into a concrete column supporting the Pont d'Alma tunnel on the morning of Aug. 31, 1997. Paul also died, as did Diana's then boyfriend, millionaire Dodi al Fayad. Paul's parents have disputed the charges in a French court, insisting the blood analyzed by police was not that of their son. The British opened an inquest into the death last year and now plan to use super-high-tech laser equipment to scan the tunnel and use computers to recreate a model of exactly how the crash occurred. Such technology was not available seven years ago. British police haven't said how much the complica ed recreation will cost, but it is not hard to come up with ways the money could better be spent. (Finishing school for Diana's youngest, the wild Prince Harry, perhaps?) Knowing Camilla's bad luck, the results of the new Diana investigation will probably be revealed on April 8, the day of her wedding to Prince Charles. (2:35 p.m. CET) from Der Spiegel bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 33, "subject": "The role of Nelly Dean", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 12, 1997 (11:44)", "body": "Elena -- I have to say, I did NOT like Nelly. In particular, her ignoring of Cathy the Elder's ultimately fatal illness as a mere \"snit\" cemented my dislike. I've heard discussions of her as \"an unreliable narrator\" - though she is telling us the majority of the story, it is definitely colored by her prejudices. In fact, I think there was some discussion on the Bronte list that EVERY narrator in WH is unreliable to a certain degree. And I can't imagine that Nelly is wholly Tablitha Aykyroyd, because I hink that Emily ADORED Tabby, & Nelly is, as you say, such a snooping busybody. She is a fascinating 2nd person narrator through -- unlike Jane Eyre, who immediately grabs our sympathy with her plaintive \"I,\" Nelly is much harder to warm up to. But, being hard-hearted, she seems to fit into the world of WH."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Sun, Sep 14, 1997 (23:44)", "body": "One of the most endearing aspects of Emily's \"diary papers\" is the gentle but mischievious way she is cheeky about Tabby. Because Emily ultimately had more to do with the day to day running of the house, she seems to have become very close to Tabby. Tabby's native stories and dialects probably had a great impact on Emily's creative mind. I found it interesting that you identify Nelly's reaction to Cathy's final illness as having cemented your dislike of the character. I feel that that is the key scene in interpreting how Emily might have regarded her - a necessary plot device, and thus a necessary evil. Cathy's delium is highly revealing about a number of things, and her remarks to Nelly are significant: \"I see in you, Nelly...an aged woman - you have grey hair, and bent shoulders. This bed is the fairy cave under Penistone Crag, and you are gathering elf-bolts to hurt our heifers: pretending, while I am near, that they are only locks of wool.\" Even Edgar, who Nelly preferred to her former childhood companions, has finally had enough of her in this scene: `\"...Hereafter, we must be cautious how we vex her.\" `\"I desire no further advice from you,\" answered Mr Linton. \"You knew your mistress's nature, and you encouraged me to harass her. And not to give me one hint of how she has been these three days! It was heartless! months of sickness could not cause such a change.\"' She responds with '\"Next time you may gather intelligence for yourself!\" Which brings the apt reply of \"The next time you bring a tale to me, you shall quit my service, Ellen Dean.\" All of which means Cathy finally sees her in her true light - \"Ah! Nelly has played traitor...Nelly is my hidden enemy - you witch! So you do seek elf bolts to hurt us!\""}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Sep 15, 1997 (11:44)", "body": "It really is extraordinary how Nelly pooh-poohs Cathy's illness & won't inform Edgar until it's really too late. I think there's a line in the book to the effect that Cathy changed more in those 3 days than other people in sickness did in a year. Yet still, Nelly remained silent. I found this a pretty apalling breach -- do you think Emily is trying to tell us in the above that Nelly is allied with fairie forces, or is she just being metaphorical?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Sep 15, 1997 (20:58)", "body": "I don't think Nelly is in any way literally allied with faerie forces, but I think Cathy correctly identifies her as allied with the conventional world which is antithetical to her relationship with Heathcliff. Cathy fights in the open - her emotions are on the surface, and not too difficult to read. Nelly fights in an underhanded, manipulative way - hence, I suspect, the \"elf bolts\" - weapons she pretends are harmless. Her words in the future - in her tale to Lockwood - become tools, or weapons, to attack Cathy and Heathcliff. Nelly seems to respond mainly to those who are dependent on her. She only warms to Heathcliff when he is ill as a child, Hareton as a neglected child, and the younger Catherine. Cathy, who resists her mothering, and Heathcliff as a strong and independent adult lose a lot of her affection."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Heulwen", "date": "Tue, Sep 22, 1998 (20:14)", "body": "This doesn't have much to do with Nelly as a Narrator. Although I think she was chosen because she could narrate the emotions without having any share in them, but to still have seen them. (I realise that this seems to be a long dead topic) But what I meant to say has more to so with the parallels between Heathcliff and Catherine Earnshaw's death. For both of the deaths Nelly was present, and neither of them ate for three days prior to their deaths. There are more that I noticed that I can't pull out of my head."}, {"response": 6, "author": "saranha77", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 2004 (23:18)", "body": "I think Nelly is hardly an objective narrator because she was so involved in the story, but that's also why she is the narrator. She is one of the few characters who could have been present at all these important events. I think having the multiple layers of narrating (ie: Nelly, Lockwood, etc) is to show how different types of people respond to passion and believe themselves passionate, which is interesting to consider along with the way the novel itself was recieved."}, {"response": 7, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jan  1, 2005 (07:34)", "body": "How was the novel received? bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 34, "subject": "Websites", "response_count": 6, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 12, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "Sure -- I do! THE BRONTE PARSONAGE WEB PAGE http://www.virtual-pc.com/bpmweb/BPFINTR.HTM Bronte Sisters: (an excellent, very comprehensive site) http://lang.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~matsuoka/Bronte.html CHARLOTTE'S WEB: http://www.nettap.com/~scl/bronte/ VICTORIAN WEB PAGE - C. BRONTE (very informative) http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/hypertext/landow/victorian/cbronte/bronteov.html ANNE BRONTE http://www.cs.cmu.edu/People/mmbt/women/bronte/bronte-anne.html EMILY BRONTE http://chris.simplenet.com/emilybronte.html Also, there are e-texts on-line of the full texts of JE, WH, AGNES GREY, TENANT, & THE PROFESSOR. I have the URL's if anyone wants them. No VILLETTE, alas...."}, {"response": 2, "author": "classic", "date": "Fri, Sep 12, 1997 (21:09)", "body": "Thanks, Amy! I've visited a few and they look very interesting; so do the others. Can't wait to look at the rest. Also I just found their published book of poems online somewhere. I'll write down the address as soon as I go there again."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Sep 13, 1997 (21:34)", "body": "Yes, that's the POEMS OF CURRER, ELLIS & ACTON BELL. Very cool!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Apr 18, 1998 (03:00)", "body": "If you interested in buying Bronte (or other) books at the lowest possible cost check out http://www.acses.com It's a remarkable website where you can enter a book title, key word, or author and find the best price on a book delivered to you for the rock bottom price. A search for \"Jane Eyre\" returned a huge list of books, for example."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, May  6, 1998 (13:35)", "body": "Thanks for the hot tip, Terry!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "stef", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (20:06)", "body": "If anyone knows of any more websites on the sisters it would be a lot of help. Thanks! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 35, "subject": "COME OUT, COME OUT, WHEREVER YOU ARE!!!", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 1997 (18:42)", "body": "Just to reiterate that many people are dropping by, and NOBODY is posting this week!! I am starting to feel really, really lonely out here in cyberspace. To ameliorate my sense of alienation (& you don't want me to go the way of Emily, do you?) PLEASE post! You can comment on the weather, Charles Dickens, your Aunt Hennie, whatever. Or I promise I'm going to start typing -really- long soliloquies about the Moors...and the sheep grazing on them....the white, woolly sheep... Thanks, amy"}, {"response": 2, "author": "LauraMM", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (18:13)", "body": "Hi Amy, Yes I have been sneaking around. I have been enjoying your comments, well everyone's comments for that matter. Amy I find your information on the Bronte's to be very fresh and interesting. I have the Gaskell book at home and I just love reading about Charlotte, but I have to admit, Anne is probably my favorite of the three. I found her writing to be very truthful. I loved Anne Grey and of course, Tenant of Wildfell Hall . Well I'm leaving now, I'm not very schooled in Bronte, but I thor ughly enjoy this board. You've done a great job:)"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (19:09)", "body": "Thanks Laura! My fiance's favorite Bronte is Anne too! Have you read the Winifred Gerin bio of her? It's pretty good. I just finished the Maria Frawley book on Anne, & I thought it was a little redundant. There's really not too much material out there available on Anne, which is a shame. Anyway, welcome to the Board & hope to see you posting more often!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (20:36)", "body": "Hi Amy. I just love the Bronte conference. Every time I log on I read a bit more. I've been writing music for a performance piece about Charlotte and Branwell, which will be staged in the spring in San Francisco if we get our little budget approved -- so the Bronte conference is the perfect place for me to meditate about that. I bought the Barker book, but have been completely shanghai'd by E.F. Benson. Help! My friends told me I needed to read the Mapp and Lucia books, but they didn't warn me to wh t extent they would take over my life. Anyway, thanks for this great site."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (13:46)", "body": "Thanks, Michael! It's great to have you here! My favorite bio of Charlotte is Lyndall Gordon's CHARLOTTE BRONTE: A PASSIONATE LIFE. The Rebecca Fraser is excellent too. I'm not that crazy about the Barker because I find it somewhat dry, anti-Charlotte, and basically an apologist tract on behalf of the men: Branwell & Patrick. I understand Barker is now writing a bio of William Wordsworth, which should be interesting. . ."}, {"response": 6, "author": "saranha77", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 2004 (23:19)", "body": "I'm here six years after the last post! But I am here..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jan  1, 2005 (07:34)", "body": "Glad you're here! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 36, "subject": "The Brontes and the supernatural", "response_count": 3, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Sep 19, 1997 (11:41)", "body": "Wow! I hadn't heard these legends before. I was always impressed with Charlotte when she affirmed to Mrs. Gaskell that the telepathy bet. Jane & Rochester wasn't fantastic -- that it had -actually happened.- I will certainly keep my eye out for ghosts at the Parsonage, though I would rather see Charlotte than anyone else, since she is my absolute favorite. As long as Branwell refrains from setting anything on fire, I'm sure it will all be fine!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Sep 22, 1997 (00:48)", "body": "Hmmnnn...there's a point. Branwell on the loose. I'd have thought he'd be the one more prone to poltergeist behaviour. When I said Charlotte was buried with her sisters, of course I meant Emily, Maria and Elizabeth (also their mother and father). Anne was buried at Scarbourough - something I've always felt was rather fitting. The person who claimed to communicate with Charlotte whom I referred to above actually claimed she was with him, the interviewer and the film crew when they shot the scene in Haworth Church. Add shifting shadows and music, and it was fairly eerie. They were standing near the alter, he said she was at the back. Then he said she was walking up the nave towards them. The photo allegedly of Charlotte's ghost was taken by a member of the Bronte Society. She said she was feeling depressed the day she took the photograph, and had appealed to Charlotte for comfort. If you look at the shadow in the door, a stretch of the imagination could make it a woman in crinoline."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Sep 22, 1997 (11:56)", "body": "Oh man. I will be in that Church come next week. I love Charlotte dearly, but I DON'T think I want to see her ghost!!! She left us her brilliant works, and that is enough for me. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 37, "subject": "Spring proposal to PBS", "response_count": 8, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Oct  3, 1997 (00:17)", "body": "wdf | people | guidelines | how to apply Deadline: Sunday, November 2, 1997 Midnight (New York Time) What kinds of projects will be supported? Only single websites will be supported by the WDF. (However, if you have ideas for \"series\" of web-only projects that are thematically linked, or for projects that combine broadcast and online elements, please send email to:stories@pov.org.) Sites may be about: - a specific public issue (e.g. abortion, immigration, culture wars), - private issue (e.g. self-esteem, divorce, addiction), - problem (e.g. race, war, acne), - or other subject of public discussion (e.g. media, paparazzi, Barbie Dolls) but they must bring fresh perspectives, giving participants opportunities (and encouragement) to go well beyond spouting, posturing and flaming. Although WebLab, the organization sponsoring the WDF, is a spinoff of P.O.V. Interactive, we are not simply trying to create a Web equivalent of P.O.V., the public TV series of independent documentaries \"with a point of view.\" We are very open to approaches that use humor, fiction (even science fiction!), in addition to straight-ahead non-fiction. As noted elsewhere on these pages, we're also much more interested in multiple perspectives that take advantage of the Web as a participatory medium, rather than one perspective. Sites may be linked to a particular event or date if appropriate (e.g. the anniversary of Jackie Robinson's first major league season; an election; a TV broadcast; the 4th of July, etc.) Projects may originate anywhere in the world, but English must be a primary language and the subject should be of interest to participants in North America. Since innovation is the goal, there are no categories, and we look forward to seeing at least a few proposals for projects unlike anything that's been done before! However, we have developed some \"model\" websites -- and identified others -- that encourage story-telling, substantive dialogues that continue over time, and other strategies for involving a range of people in exploration of public or personal issues. We encourage you to spend some time exploring these sites, not with the idea of duplicating them, but with the idea of thinking in new ways about the potential of the web as a social medium. Examples: Regarding Vietnam: Stories Since the War Hong Kong '97: Lives in Transition Ready to Live: Art and Life Beyond Street Violence Jerome B. Wiesner: a Random Walk through the 20th Century gURL Who is eligible to apply? Individuals and organizations may apply. Proposals are welcome from seasoned Web designers and developers who have project ideas that they've always wanted to do Individuals who have a compelling idea but have no experience in Web design Everyone in between. What kinds of support will be provided? In the first round, the WDF will provide selected projects with funds, guidance, technical support, design and programming services (if needed) and PBS Online will provide a host server with a variety of licensed technologies, including threaded discussion, forms submission, Java, streaming audio/video, and Shockwave. Support will average $25,000 or less but may run as high as $50,000 in cash and services for particularly exciting projects. You are expected to provide matching funds toward the total project cost, which may be some combination of cash and in-kind contributions. Finalists will be asked to document their ability to supply matching funds. We will also promote each site launched with WDF support, coordinating with each site producer. Because project funds are limited, organizational overhead costs cannot be covered by the WDF. What's the time frame? Because it will take several months to complete the selection and contracting process, we expect projects will begin in the early part of 1998. While the time to \"launch\" will vary depending on the complexity of the project, and we will want to schedule public launches of WDF sites so they will not conflict or compete with each other for attention, we expect most sites to take between 1 and 6 months to develop. Evaluation Criteria Project Purpose Potential for breaking new ground Feasibility Potential for stimulating involvement by a diverse group of people Appeal to a wide audience - potential for generating some excitement and energy Review/Selection Process Selection of projects will be made by the Executive Producer, in consultation with the Advisory Committee. Eligible proposals will first be reviewed by outside readers, who will evaluate them based on the evaluation criteria provided in these guidelines. WebLab staff will also read and evaluate all eligible proposals. Based on reader and staff evaluations, staff will prepare a list of finalist proposals. Finalists will be contacted for further information if it's needed at this stage. The WDF Advisory Committee will meet to review the finalist proposals and recommend projects for support. The Executive Producer and staff will then contact project directors"}, {"response": 2, "author": "donnal", "date": "Fri, Oct  3, 1997 (09:37)", "body": "I'm interested in healthcare and in healthcare information. You probably think that everything that can be said about healthcare has already been said, but think about this as a novel approach. I believe that one of the things that is yet lacking is a good conceptual model of healthcare that takes into account information theory and knowledge management. How about putting up a web site that describes the problem domain, lays out an initial structure, and allows contributors from many different disciplines to help construct the model? When I say different disciplines, I mean a wide base of subject areas, including topics as diverse as linguistics, mathematics, computer science as well as medical science, psychology, sociology and economics."}, {"response": 3, "author": "donnal", "date": "Fri, Oct  3, 1997 (09:40)", "body": "I tried to put some pseudo html tags in front of and after the previous post. These were apparently stripped off. I had hoped for it to say: \"brainstorming\" ... text ... \"/brainstorming\" except angle brackets in place of the quotes. :-)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "donnal", "date": "Fri, Oct  3, 1997 (14:17)", "body": "What about the issue of providing matching funds?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Oct  4, 1997 (00:12)", "body": "I don't know how they count this, the Spring has an operating budget of about $800 a month a pretty substantial investment in equipment. I'll have to research this aspect more. I could approach DELL, IBM, Apple and other local companies about providing matching funds possibly."}, {"response": 6, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Tue, Oct  7, 1997 (12:16)", "body": "Terry, it sounds to me like parts of the Spring already fit the criteria above. Do you have to launch a new conference to apply for this? You already have so many set up for discussion of personal issues -- and perhaps some publicity to get new people posting and talking is all that's required."}, {"response": 7, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Oct  8, 1997 (01:06)", "body": "I'd like to get folks ideas on where we can go with this Spring. Give me you wildest, dreamiest ideas on what you'd like to see happen here."}, {"response": 8, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Oct  9, 1997 (21:49)", "body": "treatise on cross-platform DHTML: http://developer.netscape.com/news/viewsource/goodman_cssp/goodman_cssp.html bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 38, "subject": "My top ten books of all time (in order)", "response_count": 117, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Mixu", "date": "Wed, Nov  6, 1996 (07:56)", "body": "At the moment my list would look like (not in particular order - just the ten I'd recommend to anybody...) 1. King of Elfland's Daughter 2. The Dispossessed 3. Flowers for Algernon 4. Lord of the Rings (what did you expect? The Spanish inquisition?) 5. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy 6. Master and Margarita 7. Dead Souls (not sure about the English name - Gogol's classic) 8. Dracula 9. Winnie the Pooh 10. Player of Games (AND Consider Phlebas) Hmm... quite a sf-fantasy - heavy selection, I must admit... personally, I prefer short stories and poetry."}, {"response": 2, "author": "sfpclot", "date": "Thu, Nov 14, 1996 (22:06)", "body": "1) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon -- Ten years ago I was on a 36 hour bus trip and picked this book up to read on the way. I've read it 6 times since. Now that I think about it, maybe it's time to read it again. 2) Intelligent Agents by Timothy Leary -- I was 14 when I found this book. Opened my mind to the idea that science fiction was now. And that people could shape their own destinies and spin lives of wild fun, brilliant thinking and playful pranksterism. Also introduced me to the SMI(2)LE acronym. Space Migration, Intelligence Increase, Life Extension. The founding slogan of my current philosphies 3) Alice in Wonderland (and the rest of Lewis Carroll's works) - set the standard for imaginative heights. 4) Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson - Read it in one night and felt like I was tripping when I was through. Resonated through my mind and put into focus many half-formed ideas already percolating in my head. 5) Ham on Rye (and the rest of Bukowski's works) - brought me back to earth. 6) Scanner Darkly by Philip K. Dick -- Led me to the rest of Dick's works. The greatest fantasist of the 20th century. Way ahead of Baudrillard and Dennet. 7) 777 by Aleister Crowley -- See Intelligence Agents above. 8) Various essays by William Burroughs -- pragmatic linguistic shamanism 9) Collected short stories of Robert Sheckley -- Underrated SF author. Check out his short stories from the fifties. Now writing 'novelizations.' 10) Huckleberry Finn -- ...Well, then. . . I reckon I'd rather go to Hell. Since that's where all my friends are going to be. Books I wish I'd read Korzybski's Science and Sanity Joyce's Finnegans Wake Dante's Inferno Blake's Heaven and Hell Madame Ovary etc., etc., 100000x etc."}, {"response": 3, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 15, 1996 (08:46)", "body": "If you like Bukowski, be sure to check out Jan Hoiberg's website. He's nuts about Bukowski and he runs his site for the Band here on the Spring. You can get to his home page from the Band site we'll be putting up here in a few days: http://www.theband.com Maybe you can encourage him to pump up Bukowski coverage and we could do a special site for that."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Mixu", "date": "Mon, Dec  2, 1996 (02:59)", "body": "Yes, some books to recommend: The Moomintroll books by Tove Jansson - the Finnish equivalent to Winnie the Pooh. Really great stories. Check the home page at: http://www.exit109.com/~fazia/Moomin.html"}, {"response": 5, "author": "lance", "date": "Mon, May 19, 1997 (01:15)", "body": "Well, I don't know if I'll get to ten, or if I can give them in order, but here are some favorites: 1. Plato's Republic (yes, this is, in my opinion, the best book ever written). 2. Spinoza's Ethics (close to number 1O. 3. King Lear (I could save space by inserting the collected works of Shakespeare). 4. Stendahl's The Charterhouse of Parma 5. George Eliot's Daniel Deronda 6. Pride and Prejudice 7. The Green Kingdom by Rachel Maddux (yes, I know that Maddux is an unknown, but this really is a remarkable book). 8. The Human Condition by Hannah Arendt (should be higher on the list). 9. The Economy of Cities by Jane Jacobs 10. Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville 11. One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez 12. \"As I Crossed a Bridge of Dreams\" by Lady Sarashina (stories and poems by a woman of Heian Japan). 13. The Root and the Flower by L.H. Myers 14. The Duino Elegies by Rilke"}, {"response": 6, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, May 19, 1997 (13:03)", "body": "Why is the Republic the best book ever written in your opinion?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Oct 10, 1997 (16:41)", "body": "OK, here goes: 1. Kristin Lavransdatter, by Sigrid Undset. 2. Age of Innocence, Edith Wharton. 3. Remembrance of Things Past, Marcel Proust. 4. Pride & Prejudice, Jane Austen. 5. Death Comes for the Archbishop (or anything else by Willa Cather). 6. Mme. Bovary, Gustave Flaubert. 7. Great Gatsby, Scott Fitzgerald. 8. Delta Wedding, Eudora Welty. 9. Raise High the Roof Beams, Carpenter; JD Salinger. 10. The Awakening, Kate Chopin. Whew! I didn't know if I was going to make it to 10. I almost panicked there for a minute..."}, {"response": 8, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Oct 11, 1997 (02:03)", "body": "Why not? 1. The Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald) 2. The Winding Stair, and Other Poems (Yeats) 3. You Can't Go Home Again (Wolfe) 4. Letters from the Earth (Twain) 5. A Pen Warmed Up in Hell (Twain) 6. Farewell, My Lovely (Chandler) 7. On the Road (Kerouac) 8. Walden (Thoreau) 9. Ulysses (Joyce) 10.The Tower (Yeats)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Oct 19, 1997 (10:33)", "body": "1. Joyce, Ulysses 2. Proust, A La Recherche de Temps Perdu 3. Chaucer, Canterbury Tales 4. Cervantes, Quixote 5. Sterne, Tristram Shandy 6. Goethe, Wilhelm Meisters Lehrjahre 7. Austen, Emma 8. Flaubert, Bovary 9. Dickens, Bleak House 10. Tolstoy, War and Peace Honorable Mention Dostoevsky, Brothers Karamazov Faulkner, Light in August tied with East of Eden Fowles, A Maggot Calvino, If on a Winter's Night a Traveler Austen, Mansfield Park Austen, Pride and Prejudice"}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Oct 19, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "Wow! Terry -- this is quite a topic! Here is my list: 1) The First Circle - Alexandr Solzhenitsyn 2) Jane Eyre - Charlotte Bronte 3) Pride & Prejudice - Jane Austen 4) Wuthering Heights - Emily Bronte 5) Les Miserables - Victor Hugo 6) The Morte D'Arthur - Thomas Mallory (Middle English version) 7) Rabbit At Rest - John Updike 8) Rabbit Is Rich - John Updike 9) Persuasion - Jane Austen 10) Cancer Ward - Solzhenitsyn ==="}, {"response": 11, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (03:48)", "body": "Um, sort of kinda (for now) 1. Wuthering Heights - Emily Bronte (ok, always this one, always no. 1) 2. The Last Unicorn - Peter S Beagle 3. The Haunting of Hill House - Shirley Jackson 4. The Divine Comedy - Dante 5. Jane Eyre - Charlotte Bronte 6. Ghost Stories of an Antiquary - M R James 7. The French Lietenant's Woman - John Fowles 8. The Killer Angels - Michael Shaara 9. Immortality - Milan Kundera 10. Picnic at Hanging Rock - Joan Lindsay Ten is not enough - I could do 10 favourite collections of poetry."}, {"response": 12, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (08:41)", "body": "Please do, I'd love to hear this list! Specialized top ten lists are welcome, eg. top ten romance novels, etc."}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "I love Immortality by Kundera! I also forgot to mention IVANHOE by Scott!!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (22:10)", "body": "Amy, I'd noticed that ommission! Okay, top ten poetry books - forgetting The Divine Comedy which I should have included here, but lets not get pedantic. 1. Emily Bronte, tied with 2. A Shropshire Lad/Last Poems/More Poems, A E Housman 3. Emily Dickinson 4. Christina Rossetti 5. Thomas Hardy 6. WB Yeats 7. Swinburne 8. Percy Bysshe Shelly 9. Sonnets, Shakespeare (whoops, almost forgot) 10. Thomas Wyatt Yeah, I cheated. Assume these are collected works unless otherwise specified."}, {"response": 15, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (03:18)", "body": "Assuming, too, that these are collected works: 1. W.B. Yeats 2. Emily Dickinson 3. Robert Burns 4. John Keats 5. W.H. Auden 6. Walt Whitman 7. John Donne 8. Algernon Swinburne 9. T.S. Eliot 10.Percy Shelley Hon. Mention to Tennyson, Byron, Housman, Pound, Wordsworth, (Dante) Rossetti, Dowson, and Wallace Stevens. Oh, and Charles Baudelaire, and Arthur Rimbaud... Oh, hell, and Thomas Hardy, too (\"A Broken Appointment\" kills me)... I obviously lack self-discipline... (sorry)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (11:26)", "body": "Terry, I was glad to see you enjoyed Proust too--and obviously not in translation. So how about a French conference where we can sharpen our language skills? I bet I'm not the only one who's rusty around here."}, {"response": 17, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (12:44)", "body": "I also nominate A.S. Byatt's POSSESSION; Saul Bellow's HUMBOLDT'S GIFT; Alexander Dumas' THREE MUSKETEERS for sheer fun value; Thackeray's VANITY FAIR; the collected short stories of Harlan Ellison & Ray Bradbury; Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS; MACBETH; LEAR; CANTERBURY TALES; PARADISE LOST."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (17:00)", "body": "Picnic at Hanging Rock? Wow, quite a book and, according to my enthusiastic Mom, quite an Australian film, too (never seen it myself...)! Wish I could see it... OK, here\ufffds my list (but I\ufffdm only 18, I\ufffdm inclined to think that this is VERY temporary): 1.The Portrait of a Lady (Henry James)-I had a hard time accepting the ending, but it made me grow up a little. I love it for that. Ralph Touchett, the consumptive cousin, is someone I could fall in love with. 2.Jane Eyre...-I\ufffdve been more in love with this book than I am currently, but it\ufffds a helluva great novel and Rochester a helluva great man. ;-) 3.Fahrenheit (dear Lord, I can`t remember the number in the title, I always say just Fahrenheit---751?) by Ray Bradbury--very impressive writing. Loneliness is a theme that has always interested me. Books too. 4.Catcher in the Rye (J.D. Salinger)---can`t really explain. It helped me through a lot in my teenage years. Finally, a teenager I could identify with! 5.Victory (Joseph Conrad)--Alma and Heyst are two of my favourite lovers in Literature. Love almost without words... 6.The Hidden Flower (this is a direct translation of the Portuguese title, I don\ufffdt think it`s the right one) by Pearl Buck--culture clash, tender love story, sad ending. Great writing. 7.Villette-Charlotte Bronte. Lucy Snowe is wonderful. 8.Circle of Friends-Maeve Binchy. Simple writing, great human nature story. 9. Like Water for Chocolate-Laura Esquivel. Poetic, sad and happy at the same time. Interesting recipes. Magical quality to it. 10. Exodus-Leon Uris. Gave me a lot of inspiration and strength to face life. I read all of Jane Austen`s novels and the one that most impressed me was Sense and Sensibility, though it\ufffds not generally regarded as one of her best. I don\ufffdt care, I still loved it. It\ufffds not an essential book for me, though. None of her novels are (IMHO...)."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (22:31)", "body": "Ooops. Forgot Dante Gabriele Rossetti. I'd chuck in Wilfred Owen too, I guess, and Cowper's \"The Castaway\" contains some of my most muttered lines. Forgot \"Possession\" by Byatt as well! Weird, weird theory - bearing in mind I've read none of the reviews and know nothing Byatt has said about it - but... did anyone think Browning when they read about Ash, and Christina Rossetti when they read about La Motte? I know you shouldn't read a book like that as a disguised bio-fiction, and obviously there are a lot of generic victorian traits in the characters, but it just struck me like that..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Oct 22, 1997 (00:55)", "body": "I'll work on an area here where we can \"parlons francais\", as you can see I need a lot of practice. Should it be a whole conference or just a topic somewhere, like in say \"cultures\" or \"travel\", existing underutilized conferences. Wow, I like these choices of top tens and they're giving me ideas for books to read. Keep these top ten lists comin'!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Oct 22, 1997 (21:49)", "body": "A propos le francais: I think incorporating it as a topic under \"cultures\" or \"travel\" is terrific. The thrust would just be conversational anyway, so either conference would suit. I know what you mean about these book lists, I feel totally illiterate reading them--they are sending me scurrying to the library!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (03:08)", "body": "What should we call the topic, toss out a French phrase for me to use and pick one of those conferences."}, {"response": 23, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (10:44)", "body": "A suggestion from the peanut gallery... Lassiez buon temps roulez! Nope I don't know French, just enjoyed my stay in N.O. My top ten lists change every few weeks so I don't recall if I've contributed. Not to play the spoiler but I couldn't get through Possession. I thought it dry and contrived. I do love Coehlo and Allende (unfortunately in translation only) \"BY the River Piedra, I Sat Down and Wept\" really affected me. I am affected! Luisa, your list was quite reminicent of mine at your age... that's what English Lit will do to you! *smile* And, although I too have read just about every J. Austen book published, consider few of her works \"necessary\" to my happy existance."}, {"response": 24, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (11:08)", "body": "Check out the austenarchive topic sometime stacey!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (13:28)", "body": "You could stick it in \"cultures\" and call it simply \"Parlez-vous francais?\" That's pretty open-ended. Stacey, have you ever been to the new Jane Austen site, pemberley.com? Just curious--they will chew you up and spit you out with an attitude like that! :)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (18:04)", "body": "I go to Pemberley EVERYDAY and I`m proud to say: I\ufffdM STILL HERE! (He, he, he) :D"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (19:49)", "body": "Stacey, I understand what you mean about \"Possession\" being a bit contrived. It's probably one of the reasons why it wouldn't make my top ten. If you can suspend your disbelief to that degree, however, it is quite delightful. The evocation of an age I found fascinating, although not as good as Fowles's \"The French Lietenant's Woman\". What really struck a chord with me, probably because I was doing my honours in English Lit at the time, was its portrayal of the academic world. Its manueverings, in-fighting, treatment by some of knowledge as a comodity, and depiction of the conflicts between different schools of literary criticism was spot on."}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Oct 24, 1997 (15:05)", "body": "I agree. I throughly enjoyed TFLW and I think state of mind as you begin a book plays a great part into what you get out of it. Gabriel Garcia Marquez I had to read twice before I was hooked. The surreal nature of his works offended me initially and eventually it is what I have come to enjoy most about his writing."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (05:41)", "body": "I kinda forgot about one book that I`ve read more than once and that I still love: The Diary of Anne Frank. I\ufffdm glad we can return here as much as we want and correct our mistakes... ;-)"}, {"response": 30, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (09:02)", "body": "Absolutely, we're in constant flux and revision here."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Sun, Oct 26, 1997 (20:34)", "body": "Does that open it up to non-fic? Another top ten coming on: \"Emily Bronte: Heretic\" Stevie Davis \"The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln\" \"Vita Nuova\" Dante \"The Death of Forever\" \"The Diary of Anne Frank\" \"Lincoln at Gettysburg\" \"The Legend of Elizabeth Siddal\" \"The Rise and Fall of Anne Boleyn\" \"Jerusalems Lost\" Bob Ellis \"Abraham Lincoln\" Carl Sanburg How slack am I that I cant even remeber half the authors when I'm away from the bookshelves? Can I do plays too, or are you all thouroughly sick of me? \"The Civil War\" Shelby Foote"}, {"response": 32, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 27, 1997 (08:50)", "body": "Not at all, Elena, keep those lists coming!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Oct 27, 1997 (10:11)", "body": "One of my favorite plays... \"Burn This\" by (uh oh) tell you tomorrow."}, {"response": 34, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 27, 1997 (10:44)", "body": "Samuel Beckett?"}, {"response": 35, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Oct 27, 1997 (13:12)", "body": "Ooh, I loved \"Waiting for Godot\" but don't know his \"Burn This.\" Anything by Moliere would top my list (The Would-Be Invalid, The Misanthrope, etc. etc.), as well as Ionesco's \"Rhinoceros\" and \"The King is Dying\". Sartre's \"No exit\" and \"The Flies\" are up there, too."}, {"response": 36, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Mon, Oct 27, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "Bravo to \"No Exit\" and the Lincoln writings!!! I haven't yet figured out how to remember the authors myself long enough to do this, which is why I haven't posted lately. But plays I can remember! \"Moon for the Misbegotten\" by Eugene O'Neill; \"Arcadia\" by Tom Stoppard; \"The Time of Your Life\" by Saroyan. Oh, I'm probably a little lowbrow for this esteemed group, but let's add \"A Thousand Clowns\" and \"Romantic Comedy\" to the list (though the author's names escape me at the moment). I enjoy seeing everyone's favorites and being shamed into reading more."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Oct 28, 1997 (01:18)", "body": "Forgot to include anything by Virginia Woolf! Am I being just too conventional if I say I enjoyed \"The Voyage Out\" as much as \"The Lighthouse\"?"}, {"response": 38, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Oct 29, 1997 (02:04)", "body": "Nonfiction: 1. Abraham Lincoln (Carl Sandburg) 2. Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans (Plutarch) 3. Robert the Bruce (Ronald McNair Scott) 4. Robert Kennedy and His Times (Arthur Schlesinger) 5. A Thousand Days (Arthur Schlesinger) 6. Personal Memoirs (U.S.Grant, as told to Mark Twain- probably) 7. Gallic Wars (Julius Caesar) 8. Plain Speaking (Harry Truman, as told to Merle Miller) 9. Miracle in Philadelphia (Eliz. Drinker Bowen) 10.King Arthur (Norma Lorre Goodrich) Hon. Ment. to: Clarence Darrow (Irving Stone); Adversary in the House (Irving Stone); Annals of Imperial Rome (Tacitus); The Making of the President 1960 (Teddy White); Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye (Dave Powers/ Ken O'Donnell)"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Oct 29, 1997 (21:20)", "body": "I went through the six volumes of Sandburg's Lincoln bio in under a week - I lived those books when I was reading them! Like some reviewer once said, it's hardly biography - to read those books is to walk with Lincoln. Trust a poet to get it right. Huge, huge mistake - I didn't include Isak Dinesen (Karen Blixen's) \"Out of Africa\" and \"Shadows on the Grass\""}, {"response": 40, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Oct 30, 1997 (01:23)", "body": "Sandburg's Lincoln may very well have been my most enjoyable read- and read it in much the same way, a book a day- and was terribly depressed and disappointed when it came to an end. In fact, when I saw the category listed \"the book you couldn't put down\", this is the book which came instantly to my mind. Have read just about everything written about Lincoln, but none were nearly as fine (did enjoy Gore Vidal's \"Lincoln\" immensely, but it's really not nonfiction, is it?). It was, indeed, like walking wi h the man himself..."}, {"response": 41, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Nov  4, 1997 (00:45)", "body": "Aaagghh. Can't believe I forgot Vidal's \"Lincoln\"! You're absolutely right - that book is so close to reality (far more so than the dozens of purported bios I've read) that it almost classifies as non-fiction."}, {"response": 42, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Nov  6, 1997 (17:38)", "body": "How interesting that there are so many Lincoln fans out there. Terry, is it time for a new conference? Has anyone heard of a book (or read) \"The Shadows Rise: Abraham Lincoln & the Anne Rutledge Legends\"? I asked for it for about three Christmases in a row, but no one could find it. I think it was from a small university press (probably in Illinois)."}, {"response": 43, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Nov  6, 1997 (17:51)", "body": "Is this a scholarly book? What is the substance of it? And some different history conferences would be cool, if there's any interest..."}, {"response": 44, "author": "nomad", "date": "Thu, Nov  6, 1997 (18:52)", "body": "Favorite 10 books in no particular order Plutarchs Lives Alexander by Arrian Vanity Fair by Thackery Three Musketeers by Dumas Persuasion by Austen Jane Eyre by Bronte Wuthering Heights by Bronte Prince and the Pauper by Twain Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption by Bachman (King) All the Vampire Chronicles by Rice These are 10 I will read again and again so I guess that makes them favorites. I also love Poe and will read him over and over again. This was tough. Should be your top 100.(totally impractical but easier) :-)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 1997 (00:37)", "body": "There is certainly - ABSOLUTELY - interest in a Lincoln conference from this particular quarter...and I'm an Australian!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 1997 (07:05)", "body": "We could start one. More details, Elena the Aussie!"}, {"response": 47, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 1997 (14:52)", "body": "History conferences? with threads for different time periods? Or historical personalities? For Lincoln, at least, we could have threads on a number of topics. But it seems to me that perhaps he should be part of a U.S. Civil war conference, and that could bring in other topics of interest. But I'm open to what works and brings in other interested and interesting posters. Anyone else?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 1997 (16:10)", "body": "Let me know when you all finally decide and I'll create it for you."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (22:33)", "body": "Yep, history conferences. The Civil War sounds like as good a place to start as any! That's my vote cast."}, {"response": 50, "author": "didi", "date": "Wed, Dec  3, 1997 (17:39)", "body": "Mine: 1) Catcher in The Rye :JD Salinger. Just love the ramblings of a mad man as much as the next person. 2) The Color Purple : Alice Walker. The film does it no justice. 3) To Kill a Mocking Bird : Can't remember author. Top bloke though. 4) Hamlet : Bill Shakespeare. Not a book as such but action packed and going for it!! What did anyone think of Kenneth Brannagh's adaptation? 5) Hooligan Summer: ?. Great teen-read. 6) Of mice and men:Steinbeck. Forced to read this at school and was actually physically moved by the end (won't ruin it.) 7) The Scarecrows:Robert Westall. 8) Great Expectations:Charles Dickens 9) Beginners guide to Freud. Much needy text for degree level psychology. 10) The Lady of Shalott:Tennyson. Strictly speaking not a book but why bind ourselves to certain areas of literary. Its actually really hard to do this but makes you realise that you haven't read enough. Guilt setting in."}, {"response": 51, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Dec  3, 1997 (17:50)", "body": "Here's mine. I'm not entirely sure about the order, but here we go... 1) Prelude to Foundation, Isaac Asimov. Great adventure story and an excellent intro to the wonderful Foundation series itself. 2) Virtual Community, Howard Rheingold. A seminal book, and a must-read for all net-heads! 3) I have a complaint to make, Guy Bellamy. A great book about a neurotic twenty-something in England. Quote: \"Well, any fool can go to work! Surviving without it is a much more subtle manoeuvre.\" *grin* 4) Green Mars, K.S. Robinson. A great study of martian life and society. Read it for the \"scenery\", read it for the sci-fi, or read it for the cultural message - three books in one! 5) Blue Mars, K.S. Robinson - as above! 6) The Nudists, Guy Bellamy. Sex, relationships and intrigue - and extremely funny! 7) 2010, Arthur C. Clarke. Butchered by the Hollywood film makers, the book is wonderful! 8) 2001, Arthur C. Clarke. Read the book, then use it to decipher the film :) 9) Immediate Action, Andy McNab. The story of one cockney chap's life in the British Special Forces. 10) Goodbye doesn't mean forever. Probably one of the most moving books I've ever read. One teenage girl's struggle against cancer, and how she and her closest friend cope with it. I was moved to tears repeatedly."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (01:07)", "body": "Re \"To Kill a Mockingbird\" - it was Harper Lee, wasn't it? And I might be completely off-base, but wasn't Lee a woman? Re \"Blue Mars\" - I made my little brother's day by waiting around half a day at a s/f bookshop to get a copy of \"Red Mars\" signed by Robinson for him (we don't get that many s/f writers visiting here in Sydney). Then I managed to \"accidently\" pick up and purchase a media release copy of \"Blue Mars\" that had been left on a counter a month before the general release date...that went down remarkable well..."}, {"response": 53, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (11:14)", "body": "Harper Lee is indeed a woman, and if my memory serves me right, she was in her early twenties when she wrote \"Mockingbird\" (first novel too)."}, {"response": 54, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (15:44)", "body": "I can't say that I enjoyed Red Mars as much as I did Green/Blue. All three together make an interesting set though!!! I've never read Mockingbird, but maybe I should..."}, {"response": 56, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (06:33)", "body": "Definitely Othello! I saw a movie version of it a few years ago, which really opened my eyes to Shakespeare. I can't actually *read* Shakespeare any more - I have to see it, something which I don't get much time for :( I'm desperately trying to find a copy of Brave New World. Nowhere in Brighton seems to want to sell me a second-hand copy (people must be holding on to it!), so I guess I'll have to buy a new one."}, {"response": 57, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (13:12)", "body": "Don't they have it at your library? In our system, it's kept in the \"young adult reading list\" section--it's a classic! I'm afraid I wasn't familiar with most of your picks, wer, but I have to say I found Hawthorne's \"Scarlet Letter\" a big snooze."}, {"response": 58, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (13:46)", "body": "Our library? I doubt it, although I'll admit I haven't looked. It's such a hassle just to try and find a book, and generally they're not on the shelves anyway....such is the state of our college :/"}, {"response": 59, "author": "Charlotte", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (14:13)", "body": "WER, You might try http://www.amazon.com . I find their prices consistently lower than bookstores, and you cannot beat the convenience."}, {"response": 60, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (16:49)", "body": "Well, rather the point was that I don't want to spend the ridiculous price that new books cost - I'd like to read Brave New World, but I don't intend to pay 8 or 9 pounds (erm...$1.6 = \ufffd1.00 - you do the math :) for the priviledge, especially as there's a good chance I'll hate it :) But thanks for the suggestion anyway :)"}, {"response": 61, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Tue, Jan  6, 1998 (20:51)", "body": "This topic is too good to pass up, but immediately induces a crisis. Here goes... 1. Tom Jones -- Fielding is so funny and Tom is such a mess. 2. War & Peace -- Because of Pierre, especially when Moscow burns 3. Little Dorrit -- Standing in for all of Dickens. This is my favorite ... so gloomy yet so funny. 4. The Brothers Karamazov -- Take turns sympathizing with all of the characters, even the bad ones! 5. Pride & Prejudice -- Standing in for all of Austen. Hard to choose between this one & Emma 6. Moll Flanders -- Standing in for all of Defoe. Remember: Be very careful when trying to steal a feather bed from a burning house. 7. Evelina (Fanny Burney) -- Okay I'm stuck on the 18th century, but I don't know anyone who can put this down once started 8. Three Lives (Gertrude Stein) -- I think Stein is screamingly funny, too, if you have the patience for her. The Good Anna in 3 Lives talks just like my Grandmother did. 9. Les Liaisons Dangereuses (LaClos) -- Irresistible. 10. Gemini (or Les Meteores) by Michel Tournier. I'm forgetting tons, but I needed to put in something contemporary. O.K. I'm done, even though I feel disloyal to countless others. Wah!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jan  6, 1998 (21:10)", "body": "On your #9, bet the book was much better than the movie and those attempts to duplicate it (i.e., Valmont, and The End of Innocence-think that's the name- had Winona Ryder in it)"}, {"response": 63, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jan  7, 1998 (12:31)", "body": "Yeah, I never bought Winona as May Archer in \"Age of Innocence\" (which is in my top 10, by the way), though Michele Pfeiffer as Ellen seemed appropriate. I need to revise my list--I left out my beloved \"Confederacy of Dunces\" by John Kennedy O'Toole. Guess I'll have to bump Kate Chopin's \"The Awakening.\""}, {"response": 64, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jan  7, 1998 (21:25)", "body": "No, Chopin's Awakening was soooo good (although I didn't like the ending). Have to add Mark Twain's Diary of Adam and Eve and just about everything Charles Dickens wrote. And Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights. But please don't make me put 'em in order!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (15:32)", "body": "I haven't seen any of the movies of Les Liaisons Dangereuses, just read the Penguin English translation. It's wildly good. I can imagine it making a good movie, but I can't imagine a movie being as twisted and scintillating as the book, which is entirely in letters between the characters. Check it out!"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (19:56)", "body": "oh, I bet that's good........"}, {"response": 67, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (21:21)", "body": "Another one for the must-read list! Since I've seen the film, I'll just read the letters whilst picturing Glenn Close, Michelle Pfeiffer, Swoosie Kurtz and John Malchovic (firth! firth!)"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (21:23)", "body": "Ooh, John Malcovich (sorry david, but john's right up there). I don't care what type of character he plays, that guy's sexy...........(firth, oh god, am making a mess!)"}, {"response": 69, "author": "niteslyr", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (07:14)", "body": "here I go with my list: 10) Dragonlance Legends trilogy -- memorable quotes abound in here 9) Jane Eyre 8) The Moon and Sixpence 7) Anna Karenina 6) Wuthering Heights 5) The Time Machine 4) Spring Torrents 3) Ender's Game (although it got weird at the end. =) 2) Beloved 1) The Westing Game (a very fast read) Well, that's about it!"}, {"response": 70, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (10:51)", "body": "What's Spring Torrents? Who's the author? What's it about?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Jan 10, 1998 (16:05)", "body": "Ditto for selections 1-3."}, {"response": 72, "author": "EmpZoltar", "date": "Sun, Feb 22, 1998 (09:49)", "body": "In no particular order: Moby Dick The Three Musketeers Les Miserables Parting the Waters (a history of the Civil Rights Movement) A Canticle for Leibowitz Shakespeare's Collected Works (is that cheating?) Shatterday The Chronicles of Narnia Fahrenheit 451 Ender's Game"}, {"response": 73, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Feb 23, 1998 (18:09)", "body": "I think we've said before that anthologies are OK to count as one. What is \"Shatterday\" about and who wrote it, Adam?"}, {"response": 74, "author": "EmpZoltar", "date": "Mon, Feb 23, 1998 (23:26)", "body": "Shatterday is a collection of short stories and essays by Harlan Ellison. They range from the humorous to the marrow chilling, all of them incredibly rich in language and meaning. Ellison is perhaps my favorite author, and I like his essays even more than his fiction. Ellison started his career writing SF and screenplays, but has gained more critical acceptance (for what that's worth), and I would recommend his work to anyone that loves to read. His fiction style is very much like that of Borges or Ma quez - I think the term is \"magic realism\". His essays are kind of like an intellectual kick in the crotch with a splash of spice - they really challenge your preconceptions and force you to think."}, {"response": 75, "author": "EmpZoltar", "date": "Mon, Feb 23, 1998 (23:30)", "body": "BTW, there was a discussion earlier in this thread of \"Les Liasons Dangerouses\" (sp?) Have any of you seen \"Valmont\"? It came out at about the same time as \"Dangerous Liasons\". It was directed by Milos Forman, and it also does _not_ have Keanu Reeves in it, two points in its favor."}, {"response": 76, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Feb 23, 1998 (23:35)", "body": "I remember reading \"I have no mouth and I must scream\" where the last man on earth is kept alive by a computer as payback to the human race. I forget which anthology it was in, though."}, {"response": 77, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Feb 23, 1998 (23:35)", "body": "Ok to enter this response? y Warning: a comment slipped in ahead of yours at 75! This has happened to me twice tonight, I don't know if I can handle to shock!"}, {"response": 78, "author": "EmpZoltar", "date": "Tue, Feb 24, 1998 (21:56)", "body": "\"I have no mouth...\" is in the anthology of the same name. That story gives me the heebie-jeebies, priamrily due to some of the creepy images Ellison gives us. I bought the CD-rom game of the story - it's a very disturbing \"game\" - there is, quite simply, no way to win."}, {"response": 79, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Feb 24, 1998 (23:15)", "body": "Kind of like life sometimes?"}, {"response": 81, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (19:59)", "body": "for some people!"}, {"response": 82, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (19:59)", "body": "Have not read \"Valmont\"--same author as \"Liaisons\"?"}, {"response": 83, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (20:02)", "body": "think valmont was a spin off of liasons. at least the storyline is the same. valmont has the now infamous (at least here) colin firth, hence all the firthing..."}, {"response": 84, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (20:50)", "body": "Are you joshing me??"}, {"response": 85, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (21:17)", "body": "would i do that? *grin*"}, {"response": 86, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (21:45)", "body": "Hmmm...guess I'll have to rent it and see for myself (firth, firth)!"}, {"response": 87, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (21:50)", "body": "dunno, i prefer john malkovich as the viscount.....droooling!"}, {"response": 88, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (21:51)", "body": "or the marques de valmont, or whatever the title was *grin*"}, {"response": 89, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (21:59)", "body": "Marquis, viscount, whatever! Am picturing it too....mmmm...."}, {"response": 90, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (22:00)", "body": "Uh oh, wolf is drooling..."}, {"response": 91, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (22:00)", "body": "slipage!"}, {"response": 92, "author": "EmpZoltar", "date": "Wed, Feb 25, 1998 (23:03)", "body": "Yes, both \"Valmont\" and \"Dangerous Liasons\" are based on the same book. \"Dangerous Liasons\" is an attempt to present an adaptation of the play on the big screen, while \"Valmont\" is direct from the novel to the screen. I preferred \"Valmont\", but I don't have a thing for John Malkovich, although I can't wait to see him in \"The Man in the Iron Mask\" w/ Gerard Depardieu."}, {"response": 93, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Feb 27, 1998 (21:37)", "body": "Can't wait to read your review in the movie conference!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sat, Feb 28, 1998 (21:27)", "body": "I can't wait to see that one either, Adam. Thanks for clearing of the liasons/ valmont connection. don't really know which one of them i liked the best. would prefer to read the book, although haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm with Autumn, can't wait to read your review. A lot of good actors in that one, too.....and I adore Gerard Depardieu (but only saw him in Green Card)..."}, {"response": 95, "author": "EmpZoltar", "date": "Sun, Mar  1, 1998 (11:30)", "body": "Ooooh. Green Card. That could have been an excellent movie, if it didn't star the nauseatingly bad female Keanu Reeves, Andie McDowell. For Depardieu fans, I highly recommend \"Cyrano de Bergerac\" - especially if you like swashbuckling and poetry. Back to books, however, my wife and I are currently reading \"Les Miserables\" aloud to each other. I think the abridged version might have been a better idea... so far, we're about 100 pages into it, and all we know is that the Bishop of Digne is a really, really nice guy... I had forgotten all the exposition since I read it several years ago."}, {"response": 96, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Mar  1, 1998 (11:42)", "body": "that's great that you share reading. don't think i could ever convince my hubby to do that. of course, his interests art a little different from mine. speaking of keanu, i liked him in a walk among the clouds, his voice wasn't so monotonous. he's nice to look at if he keeps his mouth closed *laugh*"}, {"response": 97, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Mar  1, 1998 (19:36)", "body": "Now, now, I kind of like Andie, though she does border on saccharine sometimes."}, {"response": 98, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Mar  1, 1998 (20:18)", "body": "My all-time favorite Depardieu film is \"Jean de Fleurette\"--get this in the foreign section of your video store, Wolf! You won't be sorry! Adam, I hope you and your wife save the passages about the glass industry from \"Les Mis\" for bedtime. I can't think of a better sedative! (By the way, I am insanely jealous of you two!)"}, {"response": 99, "author": "EmpZoltar", "date": "Mon, Mar  2, 1998 (08:00)", "body": "We started this while my wife was pregnant with our son, as a way to relax us both before bedtime and wind down the day. Our first book was _The Hobbit_, followed by _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_. I'm pushing for _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ next, but we'll have to see about that."}, {"response": 101, "author": "EmpZoltar", "date": "Tue, Mar  3, 1998 (05:41)", "body": "You know, I didn't dig that one as much as some others he wrote. I think some of my favorite RAH novels are his \"juveniles\" - _Have Spacesuit...._, _Starship Troopers_, etc, but for some reason, I really love TMIAHM. Most of Heinlein's later stuff suffered from the same problem Stephen King's more recent works do - they are too cluttered."}, {"response": 102, "author": "doug", "date": "Sun, Apr  5, 1998 (06:30)", "body": "Capitol-City A&E News Update Austin, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Capitol-City.Com BOOKSTORE Online! Were looking for the Best writers in Austin! If you are an Austin writer and want to promote your book send us a copy for review and we will review it on our ALL NEW Capitol-City.Com BOOKSTORE Online! If you are an avid reader of local talent, please give us your opinion and we will post your review of your favorite Texas writers & books in the \"Reader's Great Book Picks\". Just say your piece and email back to this address: larue@capitol-city.com Check Out the Austin Readers Forums on Capitol City. You can find them directly from the menu or from a link inside the bookstore. We are also interested in profiling local visual artist, so if you are one, or know one, let us know. New Articles Now Available! Brook Mays Guitar Wars, preview up now, photos to come. I'll have Chris Mosser's Mo Music Musts Article updated by tomorrow. BANDS, ARTISTS, MUSICIANS WE WANT TO TELL AUSTIN ABOUT YOU!! Send us info about you, your web sites, your cd's for review. We are here to talk about you so take advantage of our huge readership. send your press kits to: Capitol City A&E Magazine, 13492 Research Blvd., Ste. 120-143, Austin, Texas 78750-2254 Our Wonderful and Devoted Volunteer Staff: Rush Evans- ( Music Reviews, Austin Music History, Program Director at K-Eye Television ) Laura Rojo- Music Reviews, Photographer ( KLBJ Local Licks Live Photographer for 7 years ) Chris Mosser- ( Live Show Reviews, Disc Jockey at KLBJ-FM, member of the band ?Human? ) Marybeth Gradziel - ( seasoned veteran writer specializing in Arts & Folk Music ) Milos Fortunato - ( Award winning screenwriter and Fine Artist ) Doug La Rue (Me)- ( Award winning Artist and Photographer, Co-Publisher and Editor ) Paul Browder- (My business partner and Co-Owner of Capitol City Publishing, L.L.C.) George Shineldecker- ( Office Manager, mostly Pauls Browders office manager) JT Guerrero - ( Photographer )"}, {"response": 103, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Apr  5, 1998 (09:06)", "body": "Doug, quit. This topic is about the top ten books of all time. We have a shameless self promotion topic in the porch conference."}, {"response": 104, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Apr  5, 1998 (09:09)", "body": "It's topic 27 in porch."}, {"response": 105, "author": "doug", "date": "Sun, Apr  5, 1998 (21:49)", "body": "sorry"}, {"response": 106, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May  8, 1998 (08:57)", "body": "This is probably the most difficult topic somebody has come up here! I'll have to have a go too, though I cannot remember all the names of the authors that wrote the books that most impressed me. Hope they'll forgive me. 1. Wuthering Heights (E. Bront\ufffd), together with Jane Eyre (C. Bront\ufffd): reasons will be obvious to anyone who has read these books. 2. Poor things: can't remember who wrote it, but I found it weird and wonderful, especially the bits where the doctor sews black bunny heads onto white bunny bodies, and vice versa! 3. The picture of Dorian Gray (Oscar Wilde): because it scared the hell out of me!! 4. Jeeves and Wooster books (P.G. Woodhouse): because they're great fun! 5. Dracula (B. Stoker): because I ADORE scary books. 6. The Prince (N. Machiavelli): another scary one. 7. Confessions of a justified sinner (James Hogg): SCARY! 8. Jekyll and Hyde . . . OF COURSE!!!! 9. The name of the Rose (Umberto Eco): gripping stuff. 10. Of mice and men. I have a confession to make: I don't like Shakesspeare."}, {"response": 107, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May  8, 1998 (08:59)", "body": "This is probably the most difficult topic somebody has come up here! I'll have to have a go too, though I cannot remember all the names of the authors that wrote the books that most impressed me. Hope they'll forgive me. 1. Wuthering Heights (E. Bront\ufffd), together with Jane Eyre (C. Bront\ufffd): reasons will be obvious to anyone who has read these books. 2. Poor things: can't remember who wrote it, but I found it weird and wonderful, especially the bits where the doctor sews black bunny heads onto white bunny bodies, and vice versa! 3. The picture of Dorian Gray (Oscar Wilde): because it scared the hell out of me!! 4. Jeeves and Wooster books (P.G. Woodhouse): because they're great fun! 5. Dracula (B. Stoker): because I ADORE scary books. 6. The Prince (N. Machiavelli): another scary one. 7. Confessions of a justified sinner (James Hogg): SCARY! 8. Jekyll and Hyde . . . OF COURSE!!!! 9. The name of the Rose (Umberto Eco): gripping stuff. 10. Of mice and men. 11. LOLITA!! Wonderfully perverse, and the first paragraph is the best beginning I have ever read in a book. I have a confession to make: I don't like Shakesspeare."}, {"response": 108, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, May  8, 1998 (17:48)", "body": "Wow, you really like scary stuff! \"Lolita\" was the scariest of them all, I thought...BTW I hate Shakespeare."}, {"response": 109, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, May  8, 1998 (23:34)", "body": "Othello and Hamlet were my favorites of Shakespeare..."}, {"response": 110, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun  4, 1998 (06:54)", "body": "You also don't like Shakespeare, Autumn? Thank God, I thought I was a Philistyne! I don't like him, 'cos he's such an old put-on! Nobody talks like that, no way!! Not even back then. Not unless you want your tongue tied in hundreds of little akward knots. I mean, the blood and gore simply don't make up for it!"}, {"response": 111, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jun  5, 1998 (21:24)", "body": "My thoughts exactly! But I think we're alone on this...maybe we should form a support group!"}, {"response": 112, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (03:13)", "body": "To think I'm probably going to have to study the old bugger during the next few years!"}, {"response": 113, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (05:10)", "body": "To thine own self be true; and it must follow, as the night follows the day, thou canst not then be false to any man. Almost an exact quote. I find that it flows better with the extra word in there. You think shakespeare is rough. wait until you get to \"The Canterbury Tales\" in Middle English."}, {"response": 114, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (21:04)", "body": "The \"Canterbury Tales\" were at least amusing. There is a French equivalent which is quite entertaining."}, {"response": 115, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (13:09)", "body": "I just had to read that in Middle French and did. But for some reason in the middle of the stories everybody'd be eating popcorn and talking about \"Catcher in the Rye\". Middle French, on a scale of 1 to 10, is probably a 5 (right in the middle) when it comes to comparing it to Middle English, far as reading difficulty goes."}, {"response": 116, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (20:17)", "body": "Tell me about it! I took an entire class on that, and my head was swimming the whole semester. There were 8 of us in this lit class and we had to speak in Middle French as well as read/write in it."}, {"response": 117, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (09:39)", "body": "oh so it was one of those swimming classes, eh, Autumn? Towson (sp.?) State had a very advanced Physical Education Dept., I'd say. They could combine swimming with something the French dept. was willing to collaborate with them on. I mean, I now know why you went there. I'm signing up, too, if they have a swimming class that my whole body can swim in and not just my head.....and if the Film dept. collaborates on the design of the class."}, {"response": 118, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Nov 29, 1998 (19:50)", "body": "Come to think of it, for my gym credit I took aerobic swimming! In French! And the Film dept. at TSU does offer a class on French swimming film stars. :-)"}, {"response": 119, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Nov 29, 1998 (20:55)", "body": "lol!!!!"}, {"response": 120, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (00:36)", "body": "What!!!! you mean they don't offer underwater basket weaving??? bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 39, "subject": "Bronte Biography", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (11:29)", "body": "Yes, I did read that; in fact, that's the book that re-invigorated my interest in the Brontes when I was home earlier this year with a broken leg! It was very vividly written & incorporates all of the Bronte myths, but in terms of accuracy, it's a little dicey. Still, Hughes knows enough not to be dangerous, & I found the book quite enjoyable! If you're looking for other bios, I high recommend Rebecca Fraser's THE BRONTES; Lyndall Gordon's CHARLOTTE BRONTE: A PASSIONATE LIFE; Helen Moglen's Charlotte ronte: The Self Conceived;l Juliet Barker's massive THE BRONTES; and especially, Margaret Smith's LETTERS. I just read Maria Frawley's lit. crit on Ann & Katherine Frank's bio of Emily, which were both excellent too. I now have an entire shelf filled with Bronteana, & more to come!!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Oct 20, 1997 (23:52)", "body": "I'm a little undecided on \"Bronte\". I remember nodding my head in emphatic agreement at some points, and then hurling it across the room in violent disagreement more than once. Generally, I thought it was probably good with Charlotte, okay with Anne, and pretty awful with Emily. But that's in accoradance with how much authobiographical material in the form of letters and such that each sister left. Emily, leaving the least behind, is subject to more varying interpretation. I did like the scene of her figeting in the church during her father's sermon as a child, however. In terms of bio-fiction, I liked \"Heathcliff - The Return to Wuthering Heights\". Scenes with Charlotte and Emily were interspersed with the main text of the novel. I thought it was excellent on Emily, if just a shade unkind to Charlotte. There is another work along the lines of the Hughes book called \"Dark Quartet\", the name of the writer escaping me at the moment. It goes up to Anne's death, and was followed by a second novel which I don't have that covered the remainder of Charlotte's life."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Alexandra", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (08:00)", "body": "There is also a new Juliet Barker one out here now. It reproduces alot of their letter and correspondance. My mum's bought it for me for christmas but won't let me get my hands on it until then.....I think I'm going to go mad waiting!!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Oct 21, 1997 (12:29)", "body": "I do have the new Barker -- I bought it up at the Bronte Parsonage. It is massive & I've yet to take a look at it. I also bought Emily & Anne's Belgian Essays (the devoires) which I'm really curious to read. And my fiance loaded me up with Bronte bios so my shelf is now groaning with them! I just received HOLY GHOSTS: THE MALE MUSES of Charlotte & Emily B. from the Internet Book Store, & am very anxious to read that too..."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov  7, 1997 (17:36)", "body": "Since Anne was never IN Belgium, the above should read Charlotte & Emily's essays!!! I'm just now reading Winifred Gerin's bio of Emily -- I think it's the best one on Emily I've come across yet. It's a very balanced, scholarly account. Gerin also wrote one on Charlotte, which I have & I'm anxious to read. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 4, "subject": "JE FILM ADAPTATIONS", "response_count": 122, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Jul 12, 1997 (17:23)", "body": "Well, I\ufffdve already given my opinion more than once. But it\ufffds a favorite theme with me, so here goes. I agree with you Amy, I loved Tim Dalton as Rochester, cause he had no problem in going a bit overboard sometimes, instead of trying to make it a too subtle performance. Sometimes the direct, all-feeling performance is the best. I didn\ufffdt see the George C.Scott version, but I`ve heard some people say that it was quite good. They also thought that Susannah York was too pretty to be Jane. Well, I saw her in T m Jones and she was beautiful, so I believe them."}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Jul 13, 1997 (20:26)", "body": "I'm with you, Louisa. Rochester is meant to be a Byronic, bigger-than-life character, so subtlety doesn't really play, as with the Wm. Hurt portrayal. I've never seen the Scott version. Hope the upcoming A&E with Ciaran Hinds is good -- he is such a powerful, fiery actor that I hope his Rochester is great! And I've heard good things about Samantha Morton as Jane. The only bummer is the 2 hour length -- we'll probably just get the love story,and not much else. Oh well..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Mon, Jul 14, 1997 (12:42)", "body": "Yeah, most of the adaptations, except the TD one, have that flaw: most other characters aren`t developed at all. It\ufffds all centered on J. and R. and characters like St. John and Helen are left aside, which I find a pity cause they do have an interest themselves. My favourite thing in the book is the love story and those wonderful dialogues that they keep between themselves, but the childhood part is also important for us to understand Jane`s personality and motivations."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 14, 1997 (14:30)", "body": "I agree. The whole Lowood scenario is so chilling -- esp. since it is completely autobiographical. St. John does play his part as the cold religioso without a heart, so we can understand why Jane would turn to Rochester, who, though flawed, knows how to love her for herself. The whole story is just so great!!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "sandy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 17, 1997 (17:40)", "body": "The TD version is the best, absolutely the best. Sometimes, if his acting seems to be a little too much over the top I think of it in terms of a stage play, and it sits a little better with me. I have the George C. Scott version, and while good, he just lacks passion. The WH I just couldn't take at all...too much playing around with the story, among other things."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 17, 1997 (20:37)", "body": "I agree, Sandy -- TD rules! I just think he came the closest of anyone in capturing the Romantic spirit of Rochester. The character in the book is pretty over the top too, so Dalton's tour de force didn't bother me -- in fact, I liked him better in this than in anything else I've seen him in!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 17, 1997 (21:15)", "body": "If anyone wants to download a Quicktime movie of the new JE with Samantha Morton and C. Hinds, go to: http://brite.tv.co.uk/market/eyre.mov WARNING: It's pretty slow, even on my T1 line. But the result is impressive!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Fri, Jul 18, 1997 (14:53)", "body": "I wonder how I`ll get the new Jane Eyre version. You see, here in Portugal, most British series and films are impossible to find. I wonder if there\ufffds a place on the Net where I can order it or something. Can anyone help me?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 18, 1997 (16:40)", "body": "Yes! A&E will be more than happy to sell you the video once the show airs. Visit their site at: http://www.aetv.com/"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Fri, Jul 18, 1997 (17:34)", "body": "Hey Amy!! Jane Eyre with Scott is my first love. I read that It can be had through a video catalog. I cant find the name or number did you or anyone write it down? One thing I love about TD is his whisper-like way of talking. You almost have to snuggle up close to hear him! it made Mr Rochester more human (Humane) to me. But I think he is too good looking for the role!!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 18, 1997 (19:42)", "body": "Anne: Go to: http://amazon.com/ and do a find on JANE EYRE (Title) You will be able to order the T. Dalton JE tape for $29.95 (my sister just ordered this for my birthday!) BTW, Anne, if you like IVANHOE, see my Middle Ages Board at: http://www.spring.com/yapp-bin/public/browse/medieval/all/"}, {"response": 12, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Jul 19, 1997 (09:31)", "body": "Thanks Amy! :-)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "sandy2", "date": "Sat, Jul 19, 1997 (16:12)", "body": "This was TD's finest performance, without a doubt. Although the Lion in Winter comes close."}, {"response": 14, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Jul 19, 1997 (20:08)", "body": "Isn't it odd how he was so lifeless as James Bond? He seemed stiff & awkward. Maybe that kind of role just doesn't suit him. I thought he was a lot of fun in THE ROCKETEER, however -- couldn't bring myself to see BEAUTICIAN AND THE BEAST though..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sun, Jul 20, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "Yikes...just the title gives me the chills. I can already hear that Fran Drescher squeals in my head...BRRR...poor guy, It\ufffds a shame to see talent thus wasted."}, {"response": 16, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Jul 20, 1997 (20:19)", "body": "That's for sure! I think Dalton is at his best in more classical roles -- he's better in period pieces than in contemporary ones. I feel the same way about Colin Firth, in a way..."}, {"response": 17, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (22:35)", "body": "I read that they left out the gypsy scene in the new A&E version. Too bad, because I think that is a very sexy scene. (Well perhaps I am thinking of Mr Dalton...sexy in anything!) No it is very tense, at least on his side. Do you think? Anyway, I also don't see how JE can be compressed into just two little hours without cutting too much...Lowood I can do without. Although I know it is character development...concenrtate on the romance, and please Let St John be St John, and not and not whatever e was in the Hollywood version...apologies to Amy!!:-)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 24, 1997 (00:24)", "body": "No problem, Anne. Which version didn't you like St.John in? That IS too bad about the gypsy scene -- it's a pivotal one, because Rochester is actively trying to discover Jane's feelings for the first time. And two hours really_is_ pretty short for JE. I have to confess, I love the Lowood scenes -- knowing that it was all true makes it horridly fascinating to me, for some reason. But yes -- give us the romance! I'm really pleased that Hinds is playing Rochester -- he showed so much power as Bois de Gu lbert in IVANHOE that I can see him absolutely running away with the part. And Samantha Morton looked good too, in the brief Quicktime trailer I saw."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Thu, Jul 24, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "Which version didn't you like St.John in? In the Wm Hurt version, he was connected to Aunt Reed somehow. I tried to tape it last month, so only watched the last hour solidly. When I went to rewatch, I saw that I had the VCR on the wrong channel:-(. Anyway, I remain somewhat confused over this version!!! Can't wait to see Hinds!!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Jul 28, 1997 (14:46)", "body": "FYI Have just read that The ToWH is going to be on PBS Masterpiece Theater sometime this fall...keep an eye out!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 28, 1997 (17:00)", "body": "Yeh! I think this is a BBC Production. Any idea who stars?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Mon, Jul 28, 1997 (19:26)", "body": "Rupert Graves, I think."}, {"response": 23, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 28, 1997 (21:22)", "body": "The guy in WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD & ROOM WITH A VIEW?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Jul 29, 1997 (21:53)", "body": "Hi guys, how's it going over here? Have you seen the little Jane film clip you can d/l from the British distributor's site? I'll see if I can find the URL again. AmyB"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Amy", "date": "Tue, Jul 29, 1997 (22:25)", "body": "] The guy in WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD & ROOM WITH A VIEW? __ That's the guy. Here's a bio. I found a picture once for Roar, but I dan't remember the site anymore. http://www.movienet.com/movienet/movinfo/madnessofkggra.html"}, {"response": 26, "author": "sloth", "date": "Wed, Jul 30, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "I don't have clue"}, {"response": 27, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 30, 1997 (00:13)", "body": "AMY!!! I am _thrilled_ to see you here -- welcome!!! Yes, I did download the trailer of the new JANE EYRE with C. Hinds, and it looked quite good. It's funny about Rupert Graves -- I always picture him as a little kid, since he played Freddy in RWAV, but I guess that all grown up, he'll make an excellent Gilbert Markham. How are things over at Pemberley?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 30, 1997 (00:15)", "body": "Roy: Are you confused about Rupert Graves? He's going to be playing Gilbert in a new version of TENANT OF WILDFELL HALL. If you are just generally confused (as I generally am), then please, ask away, and we will try to answer your questions!!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "sandy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 31, 1997 (09:37)", "body": "I just watched the new JE via my London purchased copy. It is wonderful! Yes, there are things left out, but overall it is intelligently done. The passion between Jane and Rochester is much more intense than any other version. And I really liked how Samantha Morton played Jane with a great deal of spirit. St. John was in the correct place, but not accurately portrayed. But Cirian Hinds....whew!!! It's definitely cold shower time."}, {"response": 30, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 31, 1997 (11:43)", "body": "Ah, Sandy, how I envy you!!! Is there any place in London where copies can be purchased? I can convert from PAL to NTSC where I work. Thanks!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "sandy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 31, 1997 (12:03)", "body": "Hmmm. My husband just went to a video store in London. Is there something on the net, perhaps?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 31, 1997 (16:13)", "body": "Maybe a \"Video U.K.\" outlet. I'll have to check!!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (17:41)", "body": "Rupert Graves plays Arthur Huntingdon and not Gilbert Markham. Luscious Toby Stephens is Gilbert and Tara Fitzgerald (Just wonderful!) is Helen Graham. It\ufffds an excellent series, great atmoshphere and music. And, of course, overall acting. I just loved it."}, {"response": 34, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (18:07)", "body": "Wow! Sweet little Rupert Graves as that depraved, drunken Arthur -- that should be something to see. What else has Toby Stephens been in? I know that he and JE were having a bit of a tryst during the making of CAMOMILE LAWN..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Aug  2, 1997 (15:12)", "body": "Rupert Graves is positively terrifying as Huntingdon. He has this smooth voice that can turn into an enraged shout anytime. It\ufffds scary! And the thing is TF has these very low, somewhat gentle tones...it suits her character. TS seems to have had a part in Twelth (I think this is wrongly written...) Night. I don\ufffdt know about his other works. He does a lot of theatre too, I guess."}, {"response": 36, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (19:30)", "body": "I think he -was- in that Trevor Nunn 12TH NIGHT, which, I confess, I couldn't get through (the audio on the videotape I had was TERRIBLE, and that's a bummer when you're trying to hear Shakespearean lines). I can't wait for TENANT to air in the U.S. -- do you know when this is planned for?"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Aug  5, 1997 (13:57)", "body": "I have heard quite a lot about the various Jane Eyre adaptations, but one that is almost unheard of is the George C.Scott version. Anyone out there care to give me an opinion? I\ufffdd like to buy it, but the only way I know is through the Net. Some online video shop, perhaps. I know it\ufffds very hard to find. Anyway, tell me what you think of this version! I have never seen it."}, {"response": 38, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug  5, 1997 (15:18)", "body": "Luisa, I can't help you, because I've never seen that one. I confess I have a fondness for the old Orson Welles/Joan Fontaine version, just because it's from the Golden Age,and Welles had the presence for Rochester. My fave so far is the Timothy Dalton, but we'll have to see how Mr. Hinds does!!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Mon, Aug 11, 1997 (19:02)", "body": "Just wanted to let you all know that I adore the TD version above them all myself. At least all that I have seen. Here is my real point! I THOUGHT I had seen all but the A&E version, but I just found out there are.... are you ready for this? TEN (10) adaptations of \"Jane Eyre!\" ELEVEN (11) if you count Wide Saragosso Sea. Here they are: 1914 Jane Eyre (Silent) Lisbeth Blackstone, John Charles 1915 The Castle of Thornfield (Silent) 1918 Woman & Wife (Silent) Alice Brady, Elliot Dexter 1921 Jane Eyre (Silent) Mabel Ballin, John Webb Dillon 1934 Jane Eyre (B/W) Virginia Bruce, Colin Clive 1944 Jane Eyre (B/W) Orson Welles, Joan Fontaine 1970 Jane Eyre (TV-NBC) George C. Scott, Susannah York 1983 Jane Eyre (TV-British) Zelah Clarke, Timothy Dalton 1996 Jane Eyre (Color) William Hurt, Charlotte Gainsbourg 1997 Jane Eyre (A&E/BBC) Ciaran Hinds What do you think of that!? Lori"}, {"response": 40, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 11, 1997 (20:48)", "body": "That's absolutely amazing! My own personal ranking is: Timothy Dalton -- #1 Orson Welles -- #2 Wm Hurt -- #11 ====="}, {"response": 41, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Mon, Aug 11, 1997 (21:30)", "body": "Amy! LOL! I agree completely. I don't \"get\" those who love his performance. It was void of practically everything. I have a hard time believing that TD's version is almost 15 years old! How old is he anyway!? Lori"}, {"response": 42, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 11, 1997 (23:56)", "body": "I have no idea, but he still looks pretty darned good. I'd guess -- late 40's or early 50's? His Rochester absolutely gives Colin Firth's Mr. Darcy a run for the money, you betcha!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Aug 12, 1997 (07:59)", "body": "Oh yes...I feel in love with Darcy when I first saw Pride, but after seeing Jane Eyre...Rochester is \ufffdTHE\ufffd man of my dreams. Energy, wit, strength, passion and...intelligence. Great sex appeal. Just perfect. ;-)"}, {"response": 44, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 12, 1997 (11:30)", "body": "You go Luisa! I have to agree -- there's something about the character of Rochester that just appeals to me more -- I think it's his lack of taciturnity. This is a man who TELLS Jane exactly what his feelings are for her -- no beating around the bush or being held in by social convention. I think if Rochester had been able to find out where Jane fled to, he would have moved heaven & earth to find her!!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Tue, Aug 12, 1997 (14:40)", "body": "Ooo! Amy what a picture that paints in my head! Can you imagine an alternative ending to \"Jane Eyre?\" Rochester scouring the country side searching for her? That's what we need here! Fan fiction! Who's talented enough to write some down? I've done my share of Austen stories, maybe its time to try \"Jane.\" Lori"}, {"response": 46, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 12, 1997 (16:43)", "body": "Lori -- I am a writer, but I've never tried my hand at fanfic. You never know though..."}, {"response": 47, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Wed, Aug 13, 1997 (18:00)", "body": "I know this is not a very \"feminist\" point of view, but I always feel sorry that he doesn`t get to go after her and bring her back to Thornfield, whether she liked it or not. Make her return...Charlotte Bronte would never write such a thing, but for me, well, that would have been the perfect ending. Of course, she\ufffds be mad at first and stuff, but they\ufffdd make up and Rochester wouldn\ufffdt have to lose his sight and hand (that has always made me angry)...the only \"but\" here is Bertha... The mad \"skeleton\", not n the closet, but in the attic..."}, {"response": 48, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 13, 1997 (20:13)", "body": "That would have been pretty romantic, especially if he could have PERSUADED her to return. But then what of mad Bertha? -And- Charlotte felt the need to make Rochester do penance for his sin of near-bigamy. PLUS, having him be dependent on Jane at the end actually gives her more power. I think that CB had her story locked down pretty well..."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Thu, Aug 14, 1997 (15:41)", "body": "She did, yes. It`s just a big shame that a strong man like Rochester is maimed like that, sp. when I remember TD`s performance in the end. It always moves me when he starts asking Jane about St, John. Of course we know he`s jealous, but it shows the insecure side of Rochester. The feeling of inferiority. And that is more poignant when we think of his former self-assurance and arrogance."}, {"response": 50, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 14, 1997 (21:01)", "body": "Yes, I think that in CB's eyes, he had to be humbled in some way as penance for his past sins. It also gives Jane more power & independence if he's more than her \"Master.\" It is very heartrending though to see such a powerful man brought so low, and so dependent. But fortunately, he has his Jane to do things for him!!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Thu, Aug 14, 1997 (21:25)", "body": "Just wanted to let you know that I am finally going to get to see the new film version of \"Jane Eyre.\" A&E is sending me an advance press screening next week. I will be sure to give you a complete report! Lori"}, {"response": 52, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 15, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "Lori, you are lucky, lucky, lucky! Please let us know how it is, and don't spare any details -- I'm really anxious to know what kind of Rochester Ciaran makes."}, {"response": 53, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Fri, Aug 15, 1997 (14:54)", "body": "I have a beautiful picture of Welles and Fontaine as Jane and Rochester, but I can't figure out how to post it here. can anyone give me a quick lesson? Lori"}, {"response": 54, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 15, 1997 (16:45)", "body": "I am completely HTML challenged! Does anyone else know how?"}, {"response": 55, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Aug 18, 1997 (02:11)", "body": "Luisa, it doesn't appear that anyone else has answered your question, so I will. I like the George C. Scott version of JE A LOT, and it can be purchased through the Critic's Choice catalog (let me know if you need more info). Susannah York IS too pretty for Jane, but GCS is absolutely perfect as Rochester, IMO -- just exactly the way I picture him from the book. I love the TD version (Zelah Clarke is about as close to Jane as I can see getting), but he is awfully good-looking to be a convincing Rocheste . As far as HTML, check out the tutorial here or at Pemberley for instructions on posting a picture. That's one of the things I like about the Spring -- pictures seem to be posted more here!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 18, 1997 (11:35)", "body": "Susan -- I have a ton of pictures I'd love to post. I will check out Ann's HTML Tutorial at Pemberley. Speaking of the George C. Scott version of JE, I was just looking for it at the videostore, & could not find. How was Scott as Rochester? His overall personna is pretty harsh, a la PATTON -- did he manage romantic tenderness as well?"}, {"response": 57, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Mon, Aug 18, 1997 (13:17)", "body": "http://shill.simplenet.com/actress/fontaj03.jpg I doubt this worked. But if it did, you should see a nice picture of Welles and Fontaine in Jane Eyre. If not, go to the link and check it out! Lori"}, {"response": 58, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 18, 1997 (16:57)", "body": "Lori: Can you e-mail me privately & give me Idiotic Instructions on how to post Picts to this Board? They all \"live\" on existing sites on the Web, if that's any help. I've collected some cool ones of the Brontes I'd like to share. Thanks!!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 18, 1997 (16:58)", "body": "That should have read \"Idiot Instructions.\" As in -- for someone to whom HTML is another planet. Thanks."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Susan", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (00:32)", "body": "Susan -- I have a ton of pictures I'd love to post. I will check out Ann's HTML Tutorial at Pemberley. Please do, but if you find a picture on the net that you want to post here, that's easy. Right-click on it and choose \"Copy Image Location.\" Come back here, and in the message box, hit the following keys (omit commas!): Shift, lesser than symbol, img src=, quote sign, control V, quote sign, shift, greater than symbol. Then send the message -- your picture should show up when you look at the sent message. I know this doesn't necessarily make sense now, but if I actually type it out, you won't be able t see it! Just give it a try. This is explained more thoroughly in the tutorial, BTW. Speaking of the George C. Scott version of JE, I was just looking for it at the videostore, & could not find. How was Scott as Rochester? His overall personna is pretty harsh, a la PATTON -- did he manage romantic tenderness as well? You can get it through Critic's Choice, but I don't think it's generally available for rent yet. I bet it will be, though. He did *great* romantic tenderness -- I thought he was WONDERFULLY Rochester-ish."}, {"response": 61, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (11:56)", "body": "Thanks Susan!!! I just rented the Timothy Dalton version of WUTHERING HEIGHTS, which I haven't seen in ages. Have to confess, I'm still partial to the classic William Wyler 1939 version with Olivier & Merle Oberon (sigh). Was Olivier gorgeous as a young man or what? Can we BLAME Vivien Leigh for leaving her husband for him?"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Bernie", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (15:14)", "body": "I'm not sure whether this will work, but here goes ... For those of you interested in reading a review of \" The Tenant of Wildfell Hall \" starring Tara Fitzgerald, Toby Stephens and Rupert Graves here is the link :\ufffd http://www2.hunterlink.net.au/~ddibd/jane/breeches.html Also, there is a review of the recent ITV/A&E 2 hour adaptation of \" Jane Eyre \" at :\ufffd http://www2.hunterlink.net.au/~ddibd/jane/iceman.html If these links don't work, they can be found just under the photograph of Marianne and Willoughby from Em Thompson's \" Sense and Sensibility \" on Ostentatious Jane's \"Jane Austen\" Page here :\ufffd http://www2.hunterlink.net.au/~ddibd/jane/jane.html"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (15:16)", "body": "Hi Glad to read that Im not alone in likeing GCS! I think one reason I love his performance so much, this may sound weird, so let me try to get it right... He is almost a father figure to Jane, something Ive never had. So I had this image in my mind and when I saw GCS he fit that image perfectly. (Big man, stern, blunt, kind, jealous, not so handsome) But while he is a protector of sorts, he is also in love and showed that love. That fit my romantic 13-14 year old notions as well. Why I felt the need to confess this I don't know! :-)"}, {"response": 64, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (19:29)", "body": "But don't you feel better now that you have, Anne? In the book, there's an 18 year age difference between Jane & Rochester, so there is definitely some of that father figure thing going on. BERNIE!!! Hi, how are you? It's been a long time -- how're things in England? I'll be going there myself end of next month."}, {"response": 65, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Aug 21, 1997 (23:48)", "body": "...Glad to read that Im not alone in likeing GCS!...I had this image in my mind and when I saw GCS he fit that image perfectly. (Big man, stern, blunt, kind, jealous, not so handsome) But while he is a protector of sorts, he is also in love and showed that love. That fit my romantic 13-14 year old notions as well. Why I felt the need to confess this I don't know! Ditto, Anne! I couldn't have said it better myself, and I'm glad you felt the need to bare your soul! I also watched it for the first time when I was in my early teens, and thought GCS/Rochester was just about the perfect man. For a two-hour version, I thought this was excellent and I have watched it several times since I bought it, with greater appreciation each time. I was afraid it would have lost something in the twenty-something years in between, but no. I would love to discuss it in more detail ith anyone who's interested. :-)"}, {"response": 66, "author": "annm", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (09:13)", "body": ""}, {"response": 67, "author": "sandy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (10:21)", "body": "I have always wondered why Briggs and Rochester never had the brains to ask the coach drivers where they took Jane. It always seemed the obvious way to seek her out. Well, I guess then the story would have been ruined. But wouldn't you have thought of that?"}, {"response": 68, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "That's a good point, Sandy! We know that Rochester had the lawyer looking high & low, but why not ask the coachmen? Unless Jane was so nondescript that she escaped attention or something. It also surprised me that Rochester would not -personally- undertake the search, instead of fleeing back to the Continent."}, {"response": 69, "author": "EmKnightly", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (13:32)", "body": "If you recall, Rochester promised he would not follow her. I think in hiring the lawyer, his goal was to know she was well and not \"dead in some ditch...\" I also wonder if him leaving the continent was not part of his search for her. I haven't read the book in a whlie -- but it doesn't say WHERE he'd gone does it? Maybe Ireland?"}, {"response": 70, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (17:09)", "body": "That's true. Maybe he thought she took that situation he had 'found' for her. This is based on a true-life incident, BTW. Charlotte was offered a governess position in Ireland, & she was so depressed at the time, she nearly went."}, {"response": 71, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (21:11)", "body": "I've resolved to order JE with GCS tonight. Why I, as a mom/wife, feel the need to deny myself something (I've been looking for this for years) as inexpensive as this, I don't know.!!! Maybe I'm afraid it won't be as good?"}, {"response": 72, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (05:06)", "body": "There's a new movie, just out yesterday, called 'Career Girls' which Ann Hornaday calls \"a portrait of compassion\". What caught my eye was this comment of hers: \"The two cleaved unto one another, arguing about psychology, deifying the Cure and using Emily Bronte as a literary Ouija board . . . \" The movie is directed by Oscar winning Mike Leigh of 'Secrets and Lies'. 'Career Girls' is rated R for language, adult situations."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Susan", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (13:33)", "body": "I've resolved to order JE with GCS tonight. Why I, as a mom/wife, feel the need to deny myself something (I've been looking for this for years) as inexpensive as this, I don't know.!!! Maybe I'm afraid it won't be as good? I'm assuming you mean as good as the TD version? It's a very good production, and I like it a lot, but it's different, of course. Truly, GCS is more like Rochester to me, although I can't fault TD's performance in any way (the man can't help it if he's gorgeous!), and Zelah Clarke is the definitive Jane for me. There were parts I liked better in this one and other parts I didn't like as well. It's much shorter, of course, but they cut out all the Aunt Reed stuff in the beginning, and really shorten th Lowood part. The scenery is breathtaking. I'd love to discuss it more with you after you've viewed it. Terry, Career Girls is supposed to be great -- thanks for the reference!"}, {"response": 74, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug 23, 1997 (17:06)", "body": "I was flipping channels last night & caught a flash of Zelah Clarke in LADY JANE! Looked like she had a pretty minor part. I'd dearly love to see that George C. Scott JE, but even my very large L.A. videostore (it of the 25,000 TITLES) does not have. Maybe I will comfort myself by rewatching the TD version."}, {"response": 75, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (09:16)", "body": "More good reports on the movie aI mentioned above, it is laced with Bronte quotes according to my friend Bob, who just saw it."}, {"response": 76, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "Which one? The George C. Scott?"}, {"response": 77, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (11:35)", "body": "I should mention that the Bronte Parsonage is selling ccs. of the new A&E JANE EYRE & TENANT OF WILDFELL HALL. They may just stock PAL (European format) tapes though. If not, I am definitely going to buy for ME. Is anyone else interested? We can work out payment details later..."}, {"response": 78, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (00:03)", "body": "Amy, I'm definitely interested! Please e-mail me to work out details. BTW, I think Terry was referring above to Career Girls, which I heard was very good, also."}, {"response": 79, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (10:22)", "body": "Hi again, Amy, and all other Bronte fans! I`ve been on holiday in the Algarve, so I couldn`t get in touch. Guess what?!? For my birthday I got the best present possible from my godmother who spent some time in England...yep, I got the new Jane Eyre and I can tell you right away that I don\ufffdt think people will be disappointed. It`s a passionate, lovely adaptation and Samantha Morton is the best Jane so far, the most wonderful and appealing performance. Ciaran Hinds is a very moving Rochester, even though on the basis of sex-appeal, I still prefer Dalton. All in all, I loved the whole thing, even though there were some major c ts in the story. The love scenes are specially powerful. I was close to tears most of the times. Well, people, I won`t comment any further, don`t want to reveal too much. Of course I could stay here forever and talk about it, but there will come a time when my two cents will come in hand. ;-)"}, {"response": 80, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug 31, 1997 (19:15)", "body": "Luisa, we all envy you! I am hoping to pick this up when I'm at the Bronte Parsonage in September, (along with WILDFELL HALL). Great to know that Hinds is as good as ever & that Samantha Morton is a creditable Jane. I can't wait!!"}, {"response": 81, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Sep 13, 1997 (13:11)", "body": "I\ufffdm kind of disappointed now, cause someone from Pemberley sent me the GSC version of Jane Eyre (she said she didn\ufffdt want it anymore) and it`s NOT compatible with my VCR (though it looks in every way like other tapes I have)...oh hell and damnation!...Sigh. All I see are streaks of grey and black and hear distorted sounds. It\ufffds more like Frankenstein than Jane Eyre..."}, {"response": 82, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Sep 13, 1997 (22:33)", "body": "That's a bummer. I don't know what GSC is -- NTSC is U.S. style, & PAL is European. Here's a dumb question, but did you try adjusting the tracking? In any case, I hope the Bronte Parsonage has NTSC so I can BUY!!!"}, {"response": 83, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sun, Sep 14, 1997 (06:24)", "body": "Oh, did I write GSC?! ;-) I meant the GCS (George C. Scott) version... he, he, he."}, {"response": 84, "author": "kkillian", "date": "Mon, Sep 15, 1997 (23:38)", "body": "I just received a new video catalog in the mail and guess what is for sale! \"Jane Eyre\" (the new one) and \"The Tenant of Wildfell Hall.\" Jane Eyre costs US$ 19.95 and will be available in October of 1997. The Tenant of Wildfell Hall costs US$ 29.98 and will be available in November of 1997. The URL for this site is www.videocollection.com (I become more HTML challenged as the evening wears on.:)"}, {"response": 85, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Sep 16, 1997 (11:40)", "body": "Thanks for that info Karen!!! That is a great tip. If I can't find NTSC copies of these shows at the Bronte Parsonage \"Gift Store,\" I will definitely get them from the above. Of course, by October I'm sure A&E will be happy to sell us the tapes for about $69.99 each!! \">\""}, {"response": 86, "author": "kkillian", "date": "Tue, Sep 16, 1997 (18:40)", "body": "I just checked out the Video Collection web site. Right now, they don't list either \"Jane Eyre\" or \"The Tenant of Wildfell Hall.\" I think that is because the release dates are in October and November. Anyway, here is an 800 number for them: 1-800-538-5856. This site has a lot of PBS videos, in fact it is a very eclectic site. Their catalog claims that they have 125,000 videos available (just not listed in their catalog or online.) They will search for you. Also, the deal they are offering is free shipping of videos for orders placed online only. I hope it will still be offered in October and November. :) Anyway, check out this site, pretty fun! (I received the catalog as part of a package for contributing to my local PBS station. I get 10% off videos. You may want to check to see if your local PBS station has offer.)"}, {"response": 87, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Sep 16, 1997 (20:41)", "body": "That sounds good. I'd love to find FLORENCE NIGHTENGALE with Timothy Dalton. I'm going to search for this when I'm in England as well."}, {"response": 88, "author": "Jigs", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (20:28)", "body": "I just found this conference 3 hours ago and haven't budged since. No one has posted in this one since last month, but I'm giving it a try. First, I have been a JE devotee since the first time I read the book at age 12, and this is the first time I've ever heard of the T Dalton version! How could I have missed it? Was it shown in the USA? Thanks to info I found here I have already ordered it from Amazon. Secondly, I was AMAZED that no one here mentions MY definitive version, the 1973 BBC TV production with Michael Jayston as Mr R and Sorcha Cusak as Jane! It too is a 5-parter (as I understand the 1983 one to be), so it is not a \"77rpm\" version like the 2-hr presentations. It is extremely faithful to the book, practically word for word. Although Jayston at first was not my physical idea of Mr R, I was won over quite quickly and he still remains THE Mr. Rochester to me. The man has him DOWN! Cusak does a very good job too--I would think Jane's character would be a hard one to portray. I haven't seen it broadcast (here it was on PBS channels) for a long time, but taped it and every now and then watch it, or parts of it, again. It never ceases to affect me, the POWER of that story written 150 years ago. And I fall in love all over again, too, of course! Anyone else out there ever seen this version??"}, {"response": 89, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (21:26)", "body": "They were just discussing this version over on the Jane Austen board: http://www.pemberley.com This was the FIRST I had heard of it, I must confess! Wait till you see Timothy Dalton -- he is absolutely -brilliant_ as Mr. R.! And Zelah Clarke, who is a stage actress, is just wonderful as Jane, though she is a bit old... Welcome to this Board & feel free to create any new topics!!"}, {"response": 90, "author": "Jigs", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (21:48)", "body": "Thank you! But where in Pemberley -- there's quite a choice!"}, {"response": 91, "author": "Jigs", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (23:30)", "body": "Never mind, I found it. And, O No, not another site!! (Oh well, what's ANOTHER 3 hours over there....)"}, {"response": 92, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Oct 24, 1997 (11:56)", "body": "Yes, this is an excellent site with a long history. They started off small & then grew to \"Republic\" size. If you're a Jane Austen fan, that's the place to be! And I hope that Bronte fans will find their way to this Board!!"}, {"response": 93, "author": "arteest", "date": "Fri, Oct 24, 1997 (17:56)", "body": "I'll pass the word to those I know -- it's a wonderful site!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (19:23)", "body": "Yes -- Amy 1, who started it, is a wonderful gal (as all Amy's are, natch!!)"}, {"response": 95, "author": "valeriebrook", "date": "Fri, Apr  3, 1998 (18:12)", "body": "I know I'm stepping into this rather late, but I've finally seen the A&E version of Jane Eyre--and I was so appalled by it that I almost couldn't bear to watch. Jane has been my favorite heroine, and Rochester my absolute favorite of all romantic heroes ever since I first read the book as a young girl. Why on earth did the screenwriter take such liberties? Charlotte's dialogue is sweetly romantic and absolutely perfect. I felt Ciaran Hinds was a completely inappropriate Rochester. His bellowing and s enery chewing was really ludicrous. EFR may be passionate, but he's not a clown. Maybe part of the problem was that I couldn't get past the incredible changes in the dialogue, but this was just unbearable for me. And Samantha Morton just didn't have that otherworldly quality that a good Jane should have. She was bold as brass! I can't help feeling that my response to it may seem silly, but it really bothered me. My favorite scene in the novel occurs when Jane is leaving Rochester. His emotions are s pure, and painful--his desire to be with Jane is so strong, and it's breaking him. And they made a hash of it in the A&E version. Do filmmakers think that contemporary viewers can't appreciate or understand Charlotte's story? I felt like this was the \"updated for the 90's\" Jane Eyre. I watched it with my fiancee, who giggled as I paced and stomped around the house, shouting \"I don't believe this!\" at random. I had my doubts about this version, and now I know why. My favorite remains the TD Jane. H 's a perfect Rochester, and while Zelah may be a bit old to play Jane, at least her performance captures some of the--it appears--very elusive Jane. I wish I'd found this site earlier!"}, {"response": 96, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Apr  9, 1998 (18:28)", "body": "Welcome! I'm afraid I had the same reaction to this version of JE as you did -- it disgusted me, and I had to turn off after Lowood. It was a misnomer to call this \"Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre.\" It was SOMEBODY'S JE, but it sure as heck wasn't Charlotte's! Was there something so wrong with her original dialogue that they couldn't keep more than 3 lines? A real abomination, IMHO."}, {"response": 97, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Tue, Apr 14, 1998 (14:44)", "body": "Hi, I've had a really interesting time reading peoples opinions on JE adaptations. My personal favourite is the BBC Timothy Dalton/Zelah Clarke version. The black & white Welles version was more about Rochester than JE. The William Hurt version took too many liberties with the story. The one everyone refers to as A&E (incidentally what does this stand for?) was shown in England on the telly and was then shown at the arts cinema in Bradford on the big screen. The woman who wrote the screenplay for ths ver ion was in the audience along with lecturers and various Bronte experts. At the end of the show all these \"VIPS\" sat on the stage and discussed the film and took questions from the audience. I was lucky enough to be there (even though I wasn't over fond of this version) The discussion was very interesting and brought it home to me exactly how difficult it must be to write a screenplay for a novel such as JE. The acting apart, the changes in the story are not always done for any reason more important other than cost. For example JE and Rochesters meeting was as it was because the directors/producers said they couldn't reproduce the conditions described in the book. The writer had to justify the changes to the script and justified herself well I felt, although I didn't lways agree with them. I agree with Valerie that this version seemed to have been \"updated\" for todays audience - with no real need to do this. Ciaran was better than Samantha Morton who I felt was a bit too down to earth for the J"}, {"response": 98, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Tue, Apr 14, 1998 (14:50)", "body": "WHOOPS pressed the wrong thing! I'll continue with my message here She was too down to earth anyway. A lot of the audience felt she was too pretty for Jane although the writer assured us she wasn't!!! The writer is called Kay Mellor and she is a local lass who was written many sucessful TV series. After seeing these I feel this version of JE definitely has her stamp on it. Mamie"}, {"response": 99, "author": "melissa", "date": "Sun, Apr 19, 1998 (01:48)", "body": "Hi Mamie! A&E stands for Arts and Entertainment. My book club just did JE for April, and it was pretty fun. I watched the William Hurt version and the A&E version, and I'm only one hour into the Timothy Dalton version right now, although I saw it and loved it years ago. I do like the way Timothy Dalton delivers his lines. The friend who loaned me the tape thinks Zelah Clarke's eyes are too close together (?!), but I think she's pretty good. I like her scene when she meets Adele, and I think Jane's emotions show on er face fairly well. I wasn't impressed with the girl who played the young Jane, though. Seemed like she was not sure of hitting her marks. I don't know why she even fainted in the red room -- she didn't seem that upset. I did like the girl who played Helen Burns, though. I hadn't realized that Charlotte based the character on her own sister Maria. I do like the amount of dialogue that's used straight out of the novel, though. You really can't replace it with anything else and get the story right. Melissa"}, {"response": 100, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Sun, Apr 19, 1998 (13:31)", "body": "Hi Melissa I agree absolutely, there's just no substitute. I'm trying to get hold of the Wuthering Heights with Timothy Dalton in. It's proving difficult. I thought the local library would have it. I've heard that's good too. I'm sure TD would make a good Heathcliff (although I found Ralph Fiennes irresistable!) Yes, it is said that Maria was the model for Helen Burns. On a recent visit to the parsonage I saw two samplers that Maria and the other sister Elizabeth had sewn whilst at Cowan Bridge School. It said that these were the only artifacts left behind by these two sisters. It made me very sad. I'm sure they would have made their mark on the world just as their siblings did. But I'm going on now.... Mamie"}, {"response": 101, "author": "SammyO", "date": "Sun, Apr 19, 1998 (17:39)", "body": "Okay, I'm gonna start by saying I'm in my early 40s and read Jane Eyre when I was a teenager, so I was only familiar with the plot, basically. SO, when I saw my first version, which was the one that aired recently on A&E, I was spell-bound. Ciaran Hinds I thought was wonderful . . . a truly passionate Mr. Rochester. Who cares if he went over the top. That's what a really passionate man does . . . I thought he was a wonderful choice, as Mr. Rochester is not supposed to be a handsome man, and felt t e TD one would neglect to emphasize that point. SO, I went out and bought the TD version, after reading the kudos from this and other boards . . . Okay okay . . . Timothy Dalton is wonderful . . . no question, especially considering the style the adaptation was made in . . . very staid, very British. But is he too handsome to play Mr. Rochester, who after all, was not supposed to be so. But he really charged my battery!! The one thing that bothered me throughout the production was their BIG size difference. Is he really THAT tall? or was she eally THAT short? I kept wanting to put her on a stool whenever they were kissing or hugging. Her neck must have hurt for weeks!! : )) Her acting was too subtle for me and alas, she was too old. So, I went out and rented William Hurt/Charlotte ______ last night. Such a different production that the other two, but I found I really enjoyed parts of it . . . especially the midnight proposal scene . . . that kiss is to die for . . . he can seduce me anytime. I found she was my favorite Jane . . . I felt the director hadn't tied her hands and didn't keep saying \"less emotion! less emotion!\" The other Janes just couldn't put any emotion on their face and it drove me nuts . . . What I was REALLY disappointed in was the ending. Where's the passion! I was expecting a BIG payoff at the end since they had teased us with little contact throughout the film, but alas, we don't even know if SHE knows his wife is dead!!! But it was beautiful and look forward to viewing it again tonight! Also, Joan Plowwright was a treasure and really added much to the whole ambience of the film. So, I must favor the A&E adaptation because of the passion, but love TD too! Well, there it is . . . I know I'm not in the majority . . . be kind to me! Will be going out and find a used copy of the novel to enjoy the original!! Thanks!"}, {"response": 102, "author": "melissa", "date": "Thu, Apr 23, 1998 (01:00)", "body": "Wouldn't it be great if we could patch together all the good bits from all these versions and make the ultimate Jane Eyre movie? About Timothy Dalton being so tall next to Zelah Clarke, in the book Rochester often comments on how small Jane is. And this version is the only one I noticed where Rochester calls her \"Janet\" as an endearment. I must say, I seriously considered Janet as a name choice when we had our first baby due to the way TD said it. I've been meaning to get a hold of \"Wuthering Heights\" with TD, and the Ralph Fiennes version, too. I just haven't spent much time in front of the TV lately -- just in front of my computer monitor!! And reading my Brontes! I haven't read \"The Tenant of Wildfell Hall\" before, and I guess I need to put that on my list, but I've got four books going right now, and three are from the library and therefore have \"deadlines.\" And a 3-year-old and an 11-month-old with ear infections! TV is at the bottom of the list of things to do! At least we have a nice assortment of interpretations to choose from when we need a Bronte fix on the screen! Take care! Melissa"}, {"response": 103, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, May  6, 1998 (14:34)", "body": "As most of you probably know, I really couldn't stand the recent A&E adaptation. I recognized about three lines of original dialogue from Charlotte Bronte -- that's it. Thought that Hinds was way over the top & probably hadn't read the book to begin with. I was so disappointed that I couldn't make it much past the Lowood scenes. Calling this thing \"Charlotte Bronte's JE\" is the misnomer of the year, IMHO."}, {"response": 104, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Thu, Mar 23, 2006 (18:07)", "body": "My favourite version is the Hurt-Gainsbourgh movie. Despite the fact that the story does not follow the book, this is the only film imho, which captures the atmosphere, the true spirit, of Jane Eyre... This film differs from the other movies, because the story is told in a silent, subtle way... Hurt portrays Rochester the way I see him: as a deeply wounded yet gentle soul... and Gainsbourgh\ufffds introvert, down-to-earth Jane is very convincing, too.... they tell the story with much passion and heart, but -thank goodness- without being *theatrical* (like Hinds-Morton)! The only other actor who is capable of portraying Rochester, too, is Alan Rickman.... the way he portrayed Col. Brandon in \"Sense And Sensibility\" took my breath away... he\ufffdd be the perfect Rochester! What a pity that he has not yet portrayed him.... Hope dies last! :-) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 105, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (13:26)", "body": "How many JE Film Adaptations have there been? Is there a list anywhere?"}, {"response": 106, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (16:51)", "body": "Here\ufffds the list (not in chronological order): (source: Internet Movie Data Base) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 107, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (16:53)", "body": "oh dear, I forgot how to write html LOL... second try: Internet Movie Data Base`s List bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 108, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (21:59)", "body": "What an incredible list. Do you have copies of all these versions in your own tape library? Amazing."}, {"response": 109, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (22:12)", "body": "Just look at this 1944 rendition from the IMDB: Plot Summary: Small, plain and poor, Jane Eyre comes to Thornfield Hall as governess to the young ward of Edward Rochester... (more) User Comments: a brooding,windswept moors-type film (more) User Rating: 7.6/10 (1,344 votes) Complete credited cast: Orson Welles .... Edward Rochester Joan Fontaine .... Jane Eyre Margaret O'Brien .... Adele Varens Peggy Ann Garner .... Jane Eyre (younger) John Sutton .... Dr. Rivers Sara Allgood .... Bessie Henry Daniell .... Henry Brocklehurst Agnes Moorehead .... Mrs. Reed Aubrey Mather .... Colonel Dent Edith Barrett .... Mrs. Fairfax Barbara Everest .... Lady Ingram Hillary Brooke .... Blanche Ingram (more)"}, {"response": 110, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (23:40)", "body": "Wow, 1944. I've heard of Joan Fontaine, Agnes Moorehead, and of course Orson Wells. This had to be in black and white."}, {"response": 111, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (05:39)", "body": "I own a copy of the Hurt version, and the Jayston version.... had the Hinds version on video-tape, but deleted it in my rage over their acting :-)... saw the Dalton version twice, this one was better... Orson Welles gives me the creeps since \"The Third Man\" LOL, have not yet dared to see his portrayal of Rochester... the George C Scott/ Susannah York version seems to be interesting, this is the one I\ufffdd like to see next... BTW, do you know that a new version of Jane Eyre is in planning?! starring Ruth Wilson as Jane and Toby Stephens as Rochester: article: Ruth as Jane an interview with Toby Stephens bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 112, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (09:17)", "body": "Ruth Wilson looks stunning. I haven't heard of Toby Stephens, is this a good choice? This was another interesting blog entry from the same site: Rumour has it that Angelina Jolie and Johnny Depp have been lined up to play Cathy and Heathcliff in a new movie version of Wuthering Heights. We'll keep our ears open......"}, {"response": 113, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (12:18)", "body": "Yes, she`s beautiful :-) and fresh from drama school. I don`t know Stephen`s work, either... lets wait and see :-) oh dear, I hope it`s just a rumour... what an odd couple it would be! :-)... the only positive thing I see here is that Jolie might inspire the MTV generation to read some good old literature again! bye:-). Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 114, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (18:41)", "body": "What are the personality traits of the Cathy and Heathcliff characters and how do they match up with those of Depp and Jolie."}, {"response": 115, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (20:26)", "body": "hmm, difficult question... Cathy: manipulative, mistaking power/control for love, stubborn, spoilt. Heathcliff: trouble letting go of the past, revengeful; outsider, wounded soul. I know these actors just from Yellow Press - newspaper articles and we all know these \"journalists\" are more or less story-tellers :-)... In Jolie`s case: taking another woman`s husband suits the manipulatory aspect of Cathy`s character, I dare say LOL! Johnny Depp is a quirky sort of guy, looking for the unusual. He`s very well familiar with the gothic genre when you think of his collaboration with director Jim Burton in \"Edward Sissorhands\" or \"Sleepy Hollow\". A self-destroying personality he`s got (drugs, destructive relationships prior to his relationship with Paradis, vandalism) - there are traces of Heathcliff in Depp, I believe.... Well, these are just my general assumptions based on (more or less reliable) sources. This is OT: well, you know who comes to my mind when I think of Cathy? Scarlett O`Hara - the same type of woman, the difference is that Cathy *believed* that she loved Heathcliff, whereas Scarlett was more aware of her manipulative personality. Both men wasted their time, but Rhett Butler finally woke up one fine day, simply leaving her! \"Gone With The Wind\" is praised as one of the greatest love stories, but in fact, it\ufffds a complete farce. bye:-), Miss Eyre."}, {"response": 116, "author": "etorb", "date": "Mon, Mar 27, 2006 (19:51)", "body": "Great analysis. What about Jolie's humanitarianism that somewhat counterbalances husband snatching, if that indeed is what is going on."}, {"response": 117, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Mar 28, 2006 (08:29)", "body": "Angelina Jolie is doing a tremendous job working on behalf of orphans and displaced people worldwide, and she's got Brad Pitt helping her now. from abcnews.com (snip) Sept. 13, 2005 \ufffd The spotlight is nothing new to Angelina Jolie. Now, the tabloid favorite is working to deflect the attention that follows her every move to a part of the world that is often forgotten \ufffd Africa. \"Africa is beautiful, marvelous, smart people, strong people, strong country and has a potential to be so much,\" Jolie told \"Good Morning America\" in advance of the release of a new MTV documentary chronicling her trip to a village in Kenya with Dr. Jeffrey Sachs of the U.N. Millennium Project. \"I'd love to see Africa flourish because I think it would just \ufffd It's magnificent and it has so much hope, so much possibility.\" (snip)"}, {"response": 118, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sun, Apr  2, 2006 (05:20)", "body": "No, it does not counterbalance it - you simply don`t take another woman`s husband! A man who leaves his wife for another woman is a no-good anyway, for it`s very likely he`ll leave the other woman, too: sooner or later, with or without kids! But her engagement for Africa shows that she is not completely spoilt :-). bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 119, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Apr  2, 2006 (11:24)", "body": "I have no idea what the backstory is on Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt, and Jennifer Anniston. If I read the tabloids I would know more, or less."}, {"response": 120, "author": "lsd", "date": "Mon, May 22, 2006 (15:12)", "body": "Hello, I'm totally new to this forum. I've been searching for the Jane Eyre movie that stars Hinds & Morton. Could somebody please please help me find a free download of this video. Thanks"}, {"response": 121, "author": "lsd", "date": "Mon, May 22, 2006 (15:14)", "body": "Hi, could somebody please tell me where I could find a free Jane Eyre download. I prefer the one with Samantha Morton & Ciaran Hinds. Please email me at sugarstuart@hotmail.com"}, {"response": 122, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Tue, May 23, 2006 (07:41)", "body": "Hi lsd/Sugar, I don\ufffdt know where you can get it. Miss Eyre. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 40, "subject": "A&E's Jane Eyre", "response_count": 12, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (13:06)", "body": "To copy some of the opinions from topic 30, courtesy of amy2: I'm glad we have A&E, despite the odious recent \"Jane Eyre.\" But I'll forgive them due to the great excellence of their P&P (which was shot by the BBC, of course). (LorieS)Boy, Jane Eyre was a disappointment, wasn't it? I didn't see it until last night, but I was very disappointed in all the missing characters, scenes, etc. The only change I can approve was Mrs. Fairfax's role, which finally got to be a little more sympathetic/interesting. But some of the dialog was just horribly wrong for something called \"Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre,\" wasn't it? Why not call it \"A&E's Jane Eyre\" if your script takes that many liberties? Particularly disappointing was the Moor House section. Why oh why do all adaptations think the fact of Jane becoming independently wealthy and finding her own people is unimportant? (amy2) Don't get me started! I've already posted my rant to the Bronte list. Here it is: Well.... Here's a harsh critique from someone in the industry -- I must say I thoroughly loathed this recent production of \"Jane Eyre\" & couldn't make it past the first 1/2 hour... My problems with the show: 1) Invented dialog. This reminds me of a friend who wrote a whole script for a TV show & they ended up using four of his lines. I'm sure Charlotte must feel the same way. I listened desperately for original dialogue from the book & it was scant indeed - in fact, entire scenes were invented out of whole cloth (plot was the same/dialogue had all been replaced). Was there something wrong with Charlotte's original dialogue? It struck me as a damned sight better than the dumbed-down lines we were handed last night.. 2) Poor direction. Moving the camera for no reason whatsoever. The silly Red Room intro. which played more like Halloween Haunt at Universal Studios... 3) Voiceovers. Usually the kiss of death -- they slow down the plot & remove you from the action. Here, they were used as idiot prompts: \"I was very happy here.\" Or TOLD us about other characters instead of showing us!! 4) Truncated length. Yes, Helen was dead 10 minutes in & Jane at Thornfield 15 minutes in & seeing Bertha her first night there. So many plot omissions at Gateshead & Lowood that nothing made sense anymore... 4) Ciaran Hinds. His look was bad; his acting was over-the-top. 5) Sam Morton. She was pleasant enough, but I don't think Jane would have smiled slyly before being intro'd to Rochester. Where was the contrast bet. the prim exterior & the heart on fire? I really think that Zelah Clarke captured this much better. 6) Change of setting. WHY would Jane have been crawling around mists in a river to fell Rochester's horse? Was she a mermaid? In sum....blech. This was -not- \"Charlotte Bronte's\" Jane Eyre. It was somebody else's who had no respect for Charlotte or her work. I still think the BBC version with Tim Dalton is the best we have. Adaptations like the one last night will ultimately hurt the book, because those who haven't read it think that they've seen \"Jane Eyre.\" Which they haven't. ---- Topic 31 of 40 [bronte]: Wuthering Heights video release date Response 29 of 30: Lorie Scafaro (LorieS) * Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (12:49) * 5 lines YES! Thank you for saying Cirian was over the top so that I won't be the only one being crucified by the fans over in drool. I actually read posts that said people fell for him after seeing this version of Jane Eyre!!!;-Q (That's a mouth wide in amazement with a tongue out from saying \"bleech!\") I d"}, {"response": 2, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (13:11)", "body": "Oops. sorry. Here's the rest of my cut-and-paste job. I'm very new to this stuff, and this is actually the first time I've managed to create a new topic Sorry for the sloppiness: I did like Cirian Hinds in Persuasion, but felt that he was overly made up, overly weird (none of Rochester's lines were from the book, were they?), and that he was always contorting his mouth in an effort to Act. Again, bleech! Oh, I had to rant a little more. Why do they even bother putting in anything about Jane's childhood when they're going to rush through it like that and not really tie any of it in? And the dialogue!!! (amy2 said) It (Bronte's original) struck me as a damned sight better than the dumbed-down lines we were handed last night.. Yes, yes, yes! What was with the prudish \"I can't\" when Rochester asked for her hand after the bed-burning? So often they seemed to miss the spirit of a scene and the point of it all. I read critics who felt that this Jane spoke up for herself more. It seemed to me that all she did was whine more and ask more questions, not really show any of Jane's originality. OK, enough old postings copied here. The floor is open, let's hear some defense (or more attacks!)."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (14:23)", "body": "I just posted a response to Topic 30. Does anyone know how this thing performed in the ratings? If it was a hit, I fear we will see \"Sam Taylor's\" Wuthering Heights soon...."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Oct 23, 1997 (14:24)", "body": "Just an addendum: In a 30's film of MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM, the famous credits read: \"By William Shakespeare Additional Dialog by Sam Taylor\" --"}, {"response": 5, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Fri, Oct 24, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "That's great! In another topic, people are discussing their favorite lines from Jane Eyre, and re-reading some of those, it seems like such a crime to have mediocre writers re-craft a story that is so powerful. After all, if a book has lived this long on its own merits, do we need to have it re-written? I don't mind new interpretations or new film versions. For example, the A&E JE did have one scene that most of the other versions skip, namely Jane's \"homecoming\" to Thornfield after being with Aunt Reed for her death. I was so happy to see that included -- but then so put out with the \"new\" dialog that I could have cried. They seemed to understand the spirit of the scene--both characters happy to meet again after such a long time, Jane with fears that Rochester's marriage must be impending. For that matter, I was reminded how Rochester always referred to her as \"sprite\" and \"malicious elf.\" Why oh why were these terms deemed unsuitable for tv audiences?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (16:52)", "body": "Seems everybody is pretty down on \"Jane Eyre\" these days... ;-) I find it kinda funny actually to hear people\ufffds outraged comments on the adaptation. For my part, even though I read the book (more than once), consider it one of my favourite novels ever and find it a shame that no adaptation renders it full justice, I must confess that I didn`t find this particular adaptation all that bad. For one thing, it had a perfect actress for the role of Jane: Samantha Morton, who I had already loved as Harriet, in Emma3, and who I thought did a fine job of making Jane come alive in a vibrant, warm fashion. I thought she was perfectly clever in her acting and qui e sufficiently emtional and varied in her expressions. Then, Ciaran Hinds. I have never been a fan of his and his Rochester hasn`t made me change my mind, but he put a lot of anger and pain into his acting and I really liked that part (sth that most people hated). I think Mr Rochester is an angry, bitter man. And no amount of subtlety should cover up that fact. Besides that, he shared a rare kind of chemistry with Sam Morton and their love scenes are the best thing in the series (the kisses, especially :) Mrs Fairfax was perfect and much more believable than the one in the Dalton/Clarke version. I hated that cartoon of a housekeeper that they decided would make a good Mrs Fairfax. This one (Gemma Jones?) was much, much better and more emotional too. Adele was better too, IMHO. The other one looked like a doll and moved like one as well. In the end what lacked was the script: all those lovely lines that we so love were left out, all those endearing names that Rochester uses to call Jane mysteriously disappeared and many important scenes too. St John was OK, I guess, but not particularly good. Jane`s childhood is almost completely ignored and that is my main complaint. Gateshead and Lowood were mistreated. Too bad. With what they used from the book, they did a fine job, IMO. And no amount of bashing will make me change my mind, now that I\ufffdve seen it two or three times. No adaptation has been \"IT\", for me, though, and I don`t think there`ll ever be a perfect one. It`s actually even absurd to think in those terms... Sorry about this being too long. Getting carried away is a habit with me."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (18:29)", "body": "That's OK, Luisa! It's refreshing to hear another P.O.V. I see that some on the Austen board liked this version as well. I think what's ultimately great about JE is READING the book, & hearing Charlotte's poetic language. No film can capture this quality, & that's why the novel will always be superior to any film version, IMHO."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Oct 25, 1997 (19:30)", "body": "Yep indeed, Amy! ;-)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "eva", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (20:56)", "body": "I thought Ciaran Hinds made a perfect Mr. Rochester. I even liked him better than Orson Welles ( I never thought I'd say that about anyone). I have seen some hideous adaptations of the book (William Hurt? What were they thinking! What a waste of time!) When he proposed to her by the tree, when he wouldn't just let her leave, oh! and the reunion at the end. Call me shallow, but this is the most romantic thing I have seen in a very long time. Personally, and I have read the book, I think Ciaran Hinds' int rpretation of Mr. Rochester may have been what Charlotte Bronte had in mind when she wrote the book. Even if I'm wrong, I still love A&E's version best of all. C'est Magnifique!! There's my $0.02."}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "Hi Eva, & thanks for joining us! I thought Ciaran was wonderful as Bois-Guibert in IVANHOE, though I had my problems with the recent JE. I taped it though & should probably give it another chance by re-watching."}, {"response": 11, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (16:29)", "body": "Hi again. Yes, I'll admit I've heard lots of people saying a second (or third) viewing is necessary to appreciate Cirian as Rochester. I suppose I should try to get the video (or hope A&E shows it again soon). Admittedly, it took a while for me to like him as Captain Wentworth in Persuasion. In that film, during my first viewing I thought he was too unemotional and poker-faced. So maybe, having grown accustomed to that version of the man, I just couldn't handle him being so very emotional. My biggest wish is that we could have a true to the book version (full length! with all my favorites from all the different versions. I'd love to see a young Orson Wells in the Dalton BBC version, for example. Anyone else want to play time travel games?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (12:15)", "body": "I actually loved Ciaran as Wentworth from the first get-go! Saw the film twice and just really enjoyed it! And he was marvelous in IVANHOE -- as we've discusssed on the Austen Board, he -was- the whole show! I did have a hard time with his Rochester, though -- it struck me as a bit over the top. Of course, I'm prejudiced because I loved Tim Dalton so much in the Beeb version. As far as ideal casting. . .how about a young Olivier as Rochester? Or a young Oliver Reed? Here's an off-the-wall one: Peter O'Tool! He seemed to have the requisite fire. bronte conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 41, "subject": "Testing to see if I can create an Item", "response_count": 2, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "sysop", "date": "Thu, Nov  6, 1997 (01:17)", "body": "Entering a test response to make sure respond is still working."}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Nov  6, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "Yes, I got this & it is working! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 42, "subject": "Jane (Eyre) vs. Jane (Austen) -- why not both?", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (12:24)", "body": "Thanks for mentioning the Wheat quote -- I recently came across it myself, though, as Margaret Smith points out, this wasn't the first time it had seen publication. I don't understand why there's always a direct comparison of Charlotte Bronte vs. Jane Austen. You don't find Victor Hugo being pitted against Byron, Dickens vs. Shakespeare, etc. I think it has to do with Charlotte's comments on JA; also, the fact that they were both the premiere -female- novelists of their time. Which makes me wonder how much of this \"rivalry\" is colored by plain old-fashioned sexism. As far as why Austen fans don't like the Brontes -- I think we can safely say that the sensibility of JA is as far removed from Charlotte's as the moon is from earth. The former tends to be sensible & non-demonstrative in her view of Romance ( a classicist) while Charlotte & her sisters were die-hard Romantics in the tradition of Byron, Shelley, Scott, etc. The passion in their love stories flames hot & bright, & they're not afraid to deal with unpleasant subjects (alcoholism; wives leaving husbands; ne r-adultery; Satanic cruelty in WUTHERING HEIGHTS) which I think would make both JA & many of her adherents wince. As for myself, I love JA (esp. P&P) & the Brontes both. They can co-exist in my world, though I will say that I prefer the Brontes. That's why I started this Board!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (18:57)", "body": "I'll agree with the comments above and demand my right to love all kinds of literature, written by all kinds of women. Though I'll maintain that the hints of sympathy for \"the other woman\" (Miss Crawford) in Mansfield Park and some of the scenes in Persuasion show that JA had more feeling than some of the quotes above will give her credit for. But why OH WHY are women always compared in such ways? Model-thin, large-breasted women are compared to Roseanne, with reporters trying to get catty or otherwise quotable comments from each about the other. Long-dead writers are compared and their comments on each other, if available, are pointed up as proof that women can't be friends (or proof of whatever the writer wants to prove). We are ourselves, period. We cannot be otherwise. We are creatures of our time, our genes, our environments, and our educations. JA cannot be CB, CB cannot even be her sister EB. One doesn't have to be diminished to allow the other her greatness. Enough!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (20:49)", "body": "That's very true. One of the bios I read recently pointed out the Brontes have always been compared against each other -- it's almost the basis of most criticism of their work. I happen to love JA, the Brontes, & George Eliot -- they each bring something special to the party. I have my favorite Bronte too (Charlotte) but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate Anne or Emily. It IS curious how women novelists are constantly pitted against each other, but I haven't run across any arguments on the Web latel where Saul Bellow fans are ready to stone Philip Roth's. The whole JA vs. Charlotte thing is pretty puzzling, but it does seem to inflame passions on both sides of the fence...."}, {"response": 4, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (17:04)", "body": "I just know that if I were fortunate enough to be able to write like either of them, I wouldn't bother worrying why I couldn't write like both. Women being pitted against each other seems to be one of society's favorite topics. The movies are full of such rivalries, as is much literature. Of course, I'm generalizing -- I can think offhand of at least a couple of movies about men who are rivals. But I can also remember (without trying)dozens of stories of sisterly rivalry, mother-daughter rivalry, etc. So I hate to see the trend continue here at the Spring, where we're all far too enlightened and uplifted by the discourse to fall into stereotyping. Right? :-)"}, {"response": 5, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (17:05)", "body": "I personally am particularly uplifted by the drool conference."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (19:56)", "body": "Lorie: Who's the one doing the stereotyping at the Spring? I'm confused. I hope you're not misreading my prior post, in which I was trying to say that it's a big world, & Charlotte -shouldn't- be pitted against JA. I happen to be a bigger Bronte fan, which is why I'm not hanging out on the P&P Board at Pemberley & why I started this Board."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (13:15)", "body": "I hope that my last post didn't sound too premptory -- it's just that this topic has followed me across three Boards now, & on all three, I think I've been misunderstood. To set the record straight: I love Jane Austen. She's absolutely one of my favorite writers. Pride & Prejudice occupies a very special place in my heart. I also love the Brontes. Because of who I am, I relate to them more -- that's just my own personal preference. I also love John Updike, Solzhenitsyn, Harlan Ellison, Ray Bradbury, homas Mallory, Shakespeare, Victor Hugo, Joan Didion, Saul Bellow, etc. There are so many marvelous authors out there both past & present -- we're fortunate to have such a rich literary tradition in the English language (& in translation). There's nothing like discovering a wonderful book for the first time: I recently read LES MISERABLES, & I was absolutely blown away by the depth & scope of this work. It helped me get through a very bad period (broken leg). For me, reading is just the richest exper ence around: better than movies, TV, & computers. There's something about that private communion bet. author & reader which is so special & so thrilling. I hope the next generation feels the same joy that we do.... bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 43, "subject": "The Brontes and the Visual Arts", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (20:07)", "body": "I can't remember reading a direct reference of Charlotte's to the pre-Raphaelites in MARGARET SMITH'S LETTERS, but of course, this book only goes through 1847. I was really impressed with Emily's pet portraits on my trip to Haworth - they were just wonderful. Seeing Branwell & Charlotte's Angrian illustrations was a kick as well!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Sun, Nov 23, 1997 (17:55)", "body": "They adapted a lot of the plates they had access to in publications such as the \"Keepsake\" annual to Angrian and Gondal illustrations. BTW, was that Merlin hawke of Emily's called Nero or Hero? The biographies can't seem to agree! It's interesting to chart Charlotte's appreciation of her own art indication through the novels. She seemed to think the predominate method fine enough in Jane Eyre, but had totally changed her mind by Vilette. In the latter novel, not only is she critical of teaching art by the painstaking copying of engravings, but she also had a swipe at art in general - starting with the Rubenesque Cleopatra."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (12:35)", "body": "I think that Charlotte's swipe at that Cleopatra might have had more to do with its depiction of women than its art, though she objected to that too. As far as that hawk -- Margaret Smith has a footnote in her letters claiming its name was NERO, not Hero, as has often been mistranscribed."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (23:24)", "body": "I think you're correct in her the depiction of women being one of her objections, though it was in the context of a wider criticism of artworks in general. Charlotte at least had no illusions in her later life as to whether her works demonstrated a vast talent. I respect her ability to apply realistic assesments to her earlier works. There also just seems to be - and maybe I'm reading too much into it - a dissapointment at how her art education had let her down. I suppose I'm not the only one familier with that feeling - what could be worse than recognising genius, and not possessing it yourself? She had good instincts and a love for art, just not commensurate capabilities. Gee, ultimately she just had to settle for being a literary genius..."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (12:50)", "body": "I too respect Charlotte's later assessment of her artwork & even her poetry, for that matter. She had a great instinct for judging others & her judgment was never clouded about her own merits either. At heart, she was a realist. And she was the first (and nearly the only) one to immediately see the genius of Emily's poetry during E.'s lifetime. That alone would guarantee her immortality even if she -hadn't- written JE & Villette!! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 44, "subject": "The Brontes and the Visual Arts", "response_count": 3, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, Dec 25, 1997 (17:40)", "body": "Hi, Rochelle; as an artist I find this a rather interesting topic - funnily enough I've never actually given it a great deal of thought! For myself I don't find the few surviving works by Branwell particularly promising. Perhaps he drew better than he painted. But if you think about it, don't you also find that the Bront\ufffds somehow lived in an entirely wrong era? I mean, just look at 19th century art - beautiful, but very 'strict'. Painters, more so than writers, probably, stuck to rules, painting flowers and portraits and so forth; anything more creative would have been regarded as rubbish, and its creators as talentless. And just th refore the Bront\ufffds certainly had no chance of 'making' it as artists. They were all very competent draughtsmen, but if they had lived today, I think they would have been able to DO something with this talent. They were far too creative to stick to the rules of painting landscapes and portraits etc. successfully - perhaps that's why their drawings (mostly copied and not products of their imagination) seem good, but somehow unconvincing. Had they lived now, just think of the wonderful visual works they might have created with those vivid, strange imaginations!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Sun, Jan  4, 1998 (22:42)", "body": "Very valid points, Riette. I think at the very least Charlotte began to recognise how her art education had let her down - compare her attitude in JE to that in \"Villette\". Seen in a wider context, their artistic output is very simmiler to many other young Victorian women who had \"mastered\" art as an \"accomplishment\". They did, however, take it rather more seriously than many of their contempories...Anne made Helen, her major protagonist in TOWH an artist, and Charlotte discusses art at length in her novels, and apparently did so frequently in her correspondence and conversations. For Emily, as demonstrated in the number of works she produced \"from life\", her art was yet another way to respond to the natural world she so loved, like her literary works. I have a wonderful book entitled \"The Art of the Brontes\" which has plates of all their known work, as well as works it identifies as of dubious attribution. Seeing Branwell's works as a whole is helpful."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jan  7, 1998 (18:32)", "body": "I saw the original of the \"Three Sisters\" in the National Portrait Gallery in October. While it is stirring to see the original, I can tell you that as a painting, it isn't particularly good. I tend to think that Emily was a better artist than Branwell -- her watercolours of Keeper and Flossy are just wonderful (on display now at the Parsonage in Haworth). I also very much like Anne & Charlotte's pencil drawings. Having just seen the actual sites (the bridge at Thorp Green which Anne sketched and Roe H ad, which Charlotte captured) I really was able to appreciate the talent of the Brontes as artists. The sketches are unbelievably true to life and capture the locales beautifully, even to this day. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 45, "subject": "Bronte Documentary", "response_count": 1, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (12:52)", "body": "That sounds really interesting -- please let us know how it is. If it's good, I might be tempted to order it myself!!! Is the Book of the Month online at all? Thanks!! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 46, "subject": "Hello from a newbie + The comments on A&E Jane Eyre that brought me here", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (21:17)", "body": "Hi Martine, and welcome!!! Glad you responded to my plea & found your way here. As you know, I pretty much loathed the recent A&E adaption of Jane Eyre, for the main reason that it had very little (if anything) to do with the book which Charlotte Bronte wrote. To me, calling this \"Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre\" was a complete misnomer, since virtualy no original dialog was used, and all we were left with was the basic plot. Sorry to be a naysayer but that's my opinion. Have you seen the Timothy Dalton/Zelah Clarke version of JE? I do have a soft spot for this one, esp. Dalton. I'v also liked Ciaran Hinds too, in Persuasion & Ivanhoe, but I feel he didn't do his homework to play Rochester. Also, did you notice he's put on about 50 pounds since Ivanhoe?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "martine", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (21:43)", "body": "I did notice CH put on some weight. In fact, I noticed it when I saw him in \"Closer\" this summer. I actually wondered if he had done it on purpose for the play (it fitted well the character he played on stage.) However, I remember what my dad went through when he turned 40...something. It took him a while to get back to his usual size...! It's nice to know that age is not unkind to women only. Men have their share, here and there too! However, Ciaran's new size did not disturb me too much when I watched J . Rochester is not supposed to be handsome, and I think he did a good job at doing that. Not that he is ugly in it, but his acting made up for whatever handsomeness (is that a word?)was left in him! I'm sorry you didn't enjoy that version. I think it is always difficult for someone who knows very well the book an adaptation is based on to get used to the \"new treatment\" of the story. When I saw JE, I hadn't read the book in a long time. However, the main things I remembered (JE's difficult childhood, Rochester difficult character and bitterness, the passion between the 2 of them, the crazy wife) all was there, albeit with a strange take dialoguewise and a few uncertain camera movements, I'll give you that! So I guess I wasn't expecting a lot, and was satisfied with what I got, particularly on the point of chemistry between the 3 main actors (JE, R., Mrs F.) But then again, I've see a lot of Wuthering Heights adaptations and I haven't found a single one to satisfy me. (I'm quite a schtickler (sp?) when it comes to that story)...So who am I to point out that trait in others, uh? ;-D I can feel the start of a WHeights topic at the tip of my fingers....Heehee! Thanks for the welcome. Glad to be here!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (02:03)", "body": "Aha! Glad to see someone concurs with me. There has never been a remotely satisfactory WH adaptation...and I doubt there ever will be. People refuse to see the totality of the novel."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (13:10)", "body": "Glad to have you here, Martine! Are you familiar with the Tim Dalton version of JE from the 80's? It's a very faithful adaptation of the words Charlotte actually wrote. I like it a great deal -- it has the same kind of fidelity as the A&E P&P!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Heulwen", "date": "Tue, Sep 22, 1998 (19:34)", "body": "I saw the A&E pride and Prejudice and I loved it. I think that that is the only movie adaptation that I have liked. I don't like watching movies of a book in general, they seem to leave out to much. I don't like reading sequels to books unless they are written by the same author for the same reason. I still can't bring myself to read the two sequels to Wuthering Heights that I've found (I don't know if there are more). I've always found with movie adaptations that they never satisfy my feelings for the book. For that reason I haven't gone out of my way to see the movies for books that I really like (I saw P&P2 before I'd read any JA) I only saw the first part of Ivanhoe, I thought it was moderatly good, could anyone tell me what it was like? bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 47, "subject": "Anne's age on gravestone a mistake? - it just doesn't add up!", "response_count": 3, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (17:24)", "body": "Cool theory, Mick. I wasn't aware of any of this, but it's pretty fascinating and seems unlikely to be \"coincidence.\" Perhaps Charlotte lied about her own age, and in so doing confused the ages of her brother and sisters (in her own mind), too? When you remember another's age in relation to your own, and then lie about one or the other, it can get confusing. Anyway, I like the Gondal theory better. More interesting, which is why we like the Brontes in the first place, eh?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (13:28)", "body": "Hi Mick,and welcome! It IS strange that someone like Charlotte, who obviously had a head for details, would make such a major mistake on her sister's gravestone. She did dread getting older (she commented to Ellen that she was approaching 30 and had \"accomplished nothing\" -- though she had just written Jane Eyre) so maybe she was trying to shave years off of everyone's age as you theorize above. Very strange."}, {"response": 3, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 2004 (22:40)", "body": "On this day in history... posted by bean January 17 1820: (Birthday) Anne Bront\ufffd, author of Tenant of Wildfell Hall (1848) and Agness Gray (1847), and sister of Emily and Charlotte Bront\ufffd, born at Thornton in West Yorkshire. (BTW, according to one website, the Bront\ufffd birthplace is (or was recently) for sale -- just for those of you house hunting right now). bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 5, "subject": "HOW TO CREATE A NEW TOPIC", "response_count": 8, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (17:55)", "body": "Hooray for this new board!!! I missed coming back to the Conference on the Spring. And talking about the Brontes is something that gives me a thrill. Thanks for all the hard work you put into this! ;-)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 11, 1997 (21:01)", "body": "Terry is the man who put this together, so three cheers for Terry! I too am glad to have a special place to talk about the Brontes. Their lives & work are so rich, I'm sure we'll have many interesting discussions!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jul 12, 1997 (10:11)", "body": "Thanks Amy, it's heartwarming that you're doing this. Perhaps the Spring's role to become a literary forum of sorts. I'm not much of an expert on the Brontes, but I saw a wonderful play about the Bronte sisters in Austin several years ago and I hope they bring that play back some time."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Jul 13, 1997 (20:28)", "body": "Terry: Thanks. Was this by any chance called BECOMING BRONTE? I have a friend who knows the producer. They've been trying to get this off the ground in L.A., but I understand that the budget is too large for small theatre."}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Jul 13, 1997 (22:54)", "body": "It was in fact Becoming Bronte! It was a wonderful production."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 14, 1997 (14:31)", "body": "Yeah, I heard the whole story of their L.A. travails from a friend who works at New Line. It's not easy getting theatre off the ground in this town, unless Julia Roberts agrees to play Charlotte..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "tcool", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 2003 (04:47)", "body": "Hello Amy, Iam Tas from India. Thanks for creating the discussions on Brontes. Charlotte is one of my most favourite author. How I wish she and her sisters were born in the middle of 19th century so that they could have seen and enjoyed their success. How I wish she could have read all the messages posted in this group which shows how famous she is. Its amazing that the works of Bronte sisters are read even today in this technologically modern world. That shows their greatness. Charlotte is absolutely brilliant.Her command over the English language is great.Her novels are modern and if you read them you will feel that she is an author of 21st century. I loved her novels \"JANE EYRE\" and \"SHIRLEY\".I have read them many times. Charlotte had told her friend that she had based the character of \"Shirley\" on her sister Emily Bronte(Author of the most famous romantic novel \"WUTHERING HEIGHTS\") Charlotte Bronte was very close to her sisters Emily Bronte and Anne Bronte(author of the sweet novel \"AGNES GREY\"). Cheers Tas"}, {"response": 8, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 2003 (13:02)", "body": "What is it about Jane Eyre and Shirley that bring you back so often? And a hearty welcome aboard. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 50, "subject": "Patrick Bront\ufffd", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan  6, 1998 (18:54)", "body": "The widely varying views of Mr. Bronte are puzzling, aren't they? Some portray him as an autocratic tyrant; others as a beneveloent social-minded vicar who struggled to bring up six little children on his own. I'm not sure I know what the truth is. He was certainly eccentric, and rather than being a stiff-backed Tory, he did support some of the more liberal/Radical social trends of the time. What I don't particularly like about him was his failure to show up to Charlotte's wedding at the last minute -- seems pretty mean-spirited. Or maybe he sensed that marriage & childbirth would kill her. Who knows? For a very sympathetic view, you might want to read Juliet Barker's massive bio THE BONTES."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Jan  6, 1998 (22:47)", "body": "I tend to go with the Barker view on Patrick more than anything else. Because I've grown up in an era that has been more sympathetic to Patrick than any previous, my ideas of him have been formulated by more positive bios. He himself pointed out that he was an eccentric, but that his very eccentricity contributed to the emotional makeup of the very remarkable children he had."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jan  7, 1998 (17:38)", "body": "I never really viewed him as a Victorian tyrant along the lines of a Mr. Barrett, father of Elizabeth. I think we can all agree he was a bit eccentric, but he had a pretty heavy load to tote: raising 6 small children by himself; working a large parish essentially by himself and having to walk massive distances all day; coping with the loneliness after his wife's death & being turned down by every other woman in sight; watching all of his children die in succession before him. I also like the fact that e supported Catholic voting rights despite his being a Tory and an Anglican clergyman! Plus he gave the love of literature to his children, and allowed them to read \"forbidden\" material like Milton, Byron, and Shelley. The girls might have turned out quite conventional if he hadn't allowed them to indulge their love of the arts as children."}, {"response": 4, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (15:41)", "body": "oh I HAVE to read Barker. I don't think Patrick Bronte was any more nutty than most people with big ideas and large personalities. Reading Fraser's book, I admired him for the way he encouraged the writing and publiciation of Mrs. Gaskell's book, even though it was pretty clear that he was being turned into a fairy tale ogre by it. He just didn't care, prefering that his daughter receive a tribute by a talented author. That's pretty generous. Of course, I don't know about leading the family prayers w th your pistols strapped on! Does Barker talk about that?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (12:48)", "body": "Yes, I believe she does, but he didn't lead prayers with the pistol on! He just discharged it every morning against the Church tower and left it by his bedside. I tend to the think the most eccentric thing he did was refusing to show up at Charlotte's wedding at the last minute, so that Miss Wooler had to give her away. As someone who is getting married myself in 2.5 weeks, I can sympathize with how devasted Charlotte must have felt. . ."}, {"response": 6, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Mon, Jan 12, 1998 (21:01)", "body": "Amy, congratulations on your wedding. I hope it's wonderful, & wish you the best. Also, I hope your courtship wasn't as agonizing as Charlotte's, nor with as many impediments. (Patrick Bronte certainly figures in there!) I've started reading the Barker book...at lunch today Charlotte was finally born. I'm enjoying all the little details, like the Luddite rebellions and the celebrations of events in the War of 1812 and the eclipse in 1819. She really throws in the kitchen sink, doesn't she? It's so far very interesting about Patrick. I hadn't realized that he had published so many stories and poems. There's also a bit about an article his wife Maria had written about poverty. It really shows that the Bronte children had a context for wanting to write and be published."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan 13, 1998 (12:39)", "body": "Yes, they did come from a writing tradition. Maria Branwell's essay on the virtues of being poor doesn't seem to be based on first-hand experience, though. Barker does throw in everything, though I confess that Church Rates isn't a topic to particularly stir my blood. I do find her a bit dry, though extremely informative, esp. about Patrick & Branwell, clearly the 2 members of the family she is trying to defend in the book. bronte conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 51, "subject": "WUTHERING HEIGHTS --- THE CHARACTERS", "response_count": 1, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jan  6, 1998 (21:12)", "body": "Mathew -- I don't know of any websites offering any actual notes, but you can find the text of the novel listed online. amy bronte conference | Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 53, "subject": "Kate Bush's \"WH\" & Other Derivatives", "response_count": 14, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Mon, Feb  2, 1998 (14:04)", "body": "Hi Aierea. I know and love the Kate Bush song. \"Wuthering wuthering wuthering Heights Heathcliff!\" Who can resist? I was once in a karaoke bar in San Francisco and saw someone try to sing it...an indelible memory, and a good reason to appreciate Kate Bush! I think one of the oddest pockets of Bronteana I've encountered was when I was searching the web for related sites. I ended up in the middle of an Anne Rice-like role-playing game that featured Branwell, Charlotte and Emily as undead vampires haunting an ultra-gothic version of Yorkshire. Not quite my cup of tea, but a good indication of how the Bronte's permeate the collective unconscious. Keep me posted about your search for Branwell-related materials. I'm deep in the Barker book, and would love to hear about your discoveries elsewhere! Michael"}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (15:00)", "body": "Yes, there was a Bronte ballet! Someone saw it performed in England -- she said they portrayed Charlotte as a nervous twist... I'm not into Kate Bush, but I had heard about her WH song. And there is a new musical of JANE EYRE created in Canada which is supposed to hit Broadway soon, I believe. . ."}, {"response": 3, "author": "martine", "date": "Tue, Feb 10, 1998 (01:06)", "body": "HI, Areia! I'm glad you mentionned that song, which I love...but for the music only, so far, because, being French, I have no clue as to what Kate Bush says in it. I can't figure it out. So could I ask you as a big favor to post the lyrics? It would be so great for me to FINALLY understand! Thanks a million in advance! And welcome to this conference! PS: JE the musical will start in september, I seem to recall...That warrants a web search to be sure..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Feb 11, 1998 (12:43)", "body": "I think there's a web site out there for JANE EYRE: THE MUSICAL. Does anyone know the URL? I'm curious to know when this is coming to Broadway!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "merry", "date": "Thu, Feb 12, 1998 (10:44)", "body": "Hello all, I've been following the Bronte conf. on and off for a few months--many interesting ideas here. I myself am a fan of Emily's; I've read WH a hundred times if I've read it once, and I'm fairly familiar with Anne and Charlotte, too. Haven't gotten around to SHIRLEY or VILETTE, but those are next on my list. I'm about knee-deep in the infamous Barker tome, as well--not exactly light reading, is it? Amy, the URL you are looking for is http://home.istar.ca/~wmatan/janeeyre.htm , I think. Try this and let me know what you think--haven't had a chance to browse it fully myself, but it looks like a goldmine. -merry"}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 12, 1998 (20:01)", "body": "Thanks Merry! I visited that JE: Musical site before, and it looked pretty intriguing. I guess if they can make a musical out of LES MIZ and PHANTOM, then they can do it with Jane Eyre. Don't know if anyone here is familiar with the Cliff Richard musical version of WH, \"Heathcliff.\" I saw the video for sale while I was in England -- kind of funny, with Sir Cliff staring moodily off into space. I have no idea if this was any good or not. . ."}, {"response": 7, "author": "MSchadler", "date": "Wed, Feb 18, 1998 (21:42)", "body": "Amy and All! I am horribly sorry to have been absent from this group for a long long time. I wanted to pipe in here because I am very much involved with the musical JANE EYRE. It is indeed coming to Broadway soon - as a matter of fact, it is scheduled to open in the Fall. I have seen it performed this past October in workshop fashion and it is WONDERFUL. A true Bronte fan for years, I was skeptical, but fell in love with this beautiful adaptation. As usual, things are changed for the stage. There are alterations that allow for a stage production of less than 3 hours, but its overall theme and feel is very Brontean. I have the Original (Toronto) Cast Recording on CD and listen to it religiously. I also am the editor of \"Dear Reader: The Jane Eyre Quarterly\" - a newsletter dedicated to the Broadway production. It includes lots of great info on the show and on Jane in general. Here is the URL for more info. I talking weekly with the composer of this musical and promise to bring that perspective to the group whenever possible. I hope you will enjoy it. I promise to become more involved here in the future. I am expecting baby number two and find myself at home a lot more often these days. (P.S. - Considering Emily (for Bronte) or Emma (for Austen) for the baby's name!) Lori"}, {"response": 8, "author": "MSchadler", "date": "Wed, Feb 18, 1998 (21:45)", "body": "Opps... here is the URL for the newsletter and musical info: http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/5113/"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Feb 19, 1998 (15:41)", "body": "Hi Lori, welcome back! I hope that JANE EYRE does well on Broadway -- it's been a pretty dismal season for musicals. I wasn't too shaken up by anything I saw on the Tonys. Any word yet as to casting for Rochester & Jane?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "MSchadler", "date": "Thu, Feb 19, 1998 (18:08)", "body": "Dismal yes... but that has been good news for us. It opens up potential theaters and leaves out the competition come Tony time next year. As for the casting, it is already done. This show had its world premier in Toronto over a year ago and the cast is primarily the same. The star is Marla Schaffel, a well known Broadway actress (she can also be seen in her own feature film, \"I Love You... Don't Touch Me!\" which opens on Feb. 28 - a Sundance favorite). As for Rochester, it was originally played by An hony Crivello (best known for winning the Tony for \"Kiss of the Spider Woman.\" However it seems he has other things on his agenda right now -- the most recent man to play the part is Christopher Innvar (most recently seen as Javert in Les Miserables). Chris is excellent. I saw his Rochester and LOVED it. Anyone in the Pennsylvania area will be interested to know that my charity is putting on a luncheon in May featuring Marla Schaffel, selections from the muscial, and a panel discussion about the novel. If your in the area and would like ticket information, let me know. Also, I encourage fans of \"Jane\" and musicals to buy the Original Cast CD. It is AWESOME. Snips can be heard on some of the musical's websites. They certainly stir the soul! Lori"}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb 20, 1998 (15:52)", "body": "Thanks for the update, Lori! Sounds like an incredibly professional production. Maybe this is a reason for me to go visit the New York office this fall. . ."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Areia", "date": "Sun, Mar  8, 1998 (02:04)", "body": "This is in response to Martine. Hello! Wow, you've actually asked me something I can answer! Sorry I've been gone for so long, but here are the requested lyrics to the Kate song (sorry, it's a little long): Out on the wiley, windy moors We'd roll and fall in green. You had a temper like my jealousy: Too hot, too greedy. How could you leave me, When I needed to possess you? I hated you. I loved you, too. Bad dreams in the night. They told me I was going to lose the fight, Leave behind my wuthering, wuthering Wuthering Heights. Heathcliff, it's me, Cathy. Come home. I'm so cold! Let me in-a-your window. Heathcliff, it's me, Cathy. Come home. I'm so cold! Let me in-a-your window. Ooh, it gets dark! It gets lonely, On the other side from you. I pine a lot. I find the lot Falls through without you. I'm coming back, love. Cruel Heathcliff, my one dream, My only master. Too long I roam in the night. I'm coming back to his side, to put it right. I'm coming home to wuthering, wuthering, Wuthering Heights, Heathcliff, it's me, Cathy. Come home. I'm so cold! Let me in-a-your window. Heathcliff, it's me, Cathy. Come home. I'm so cold! Let me in-a-your window. Ooh! Let me have it. Let me grab your soul away. Ooh! Let me have it. Let me grab your soul away. You know it's me, Cathy! Heathcliff, it's me, Cathy. Come home. I'm so cold! Let me in-a-your window. Heathcliff, it's me, Cathy. Come home. I'm so cold! Let me in-a-your window. Heathcliff, it's me, Cathy. Come home. I'm so cold! (What I love about this song is that it's really from the point of view of the dead Cathy! Thus, the window scene...) --aReIa, who is trying to get involved in this once again. :)"}, {"response": 13, "author": "martine", "date": "Fri, Apr  3, 1998 (01:43)", "body": "Thank you SO MUCH, Areia! I would never have gotten all the words!! I'm going to keep it preciously!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Molina", "date": "Sun, Apr  5, 1998 (00:43)", "body": "Does anyone know anything about a Wuthering Heights musical written by Bernard J. Taylor? It was called Wuthering Heights, so it's not the Cliff Richards version. There's a concept recording album out for this one. The music and voices are good, but the story is all chopped up and disjointed. I've been able to find very little info about it on the web, and would appreciate it is anyone had any info on it. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 54, "subject": "Shirley (Spoilers)", "response_count": 12, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (16:14)", "body": "Hello, Linden! I must say, I agree with your views on Shirley. In fact, I found it so 'unreadable' after Jane Eyre, Vilette, and even The Professor, that I've not been able to bring myself to finish it - started reading it about a year ago! I believe the book was written shortly after Emily's (and Anne's?) death, that is, at a time when Charlotte couldn't have felt particularly inspired, and also wri- ting must have been rather an agonizing event after having written a great deal in the company of her sisters up to that point. Apparently Shirley (and I think that is why she is a fascinating character) was based on Emily. I get the impression that the book was more a kind of therapy or 'mourning ritual' to Charlotte than anything else. It is as if the different issues and plots within the book are simply there to fill the spaces inbetween the parts that don't concern Shirley directly. It all just doesn't come together, it seems that the authoress had no 'master plan', but just let the turmoil in her soul lead the way. In that sense, I suppose, it is indeed an interesting an admirable work, but as I'm no psychoanalyst, I can sympathize, but whether I'll ever finish the book or not, remains a question!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (00:55)", "body": "It is her weakest novel, I'd say (even more so than \"The Professor\"). I read it becuase (a) it was a Bronte novel and (b) more importantly, Shirley was based on Charlotte's perceptions of Emily."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (15:04)", "body": "No one seems to like SHIRLEY much. The chapter \"In the Shadow of the Valley of Death\" was written right after Anne's death. I've read that Charlotte was trying to emulate Thackeray's VANITY FAIR by trying to write an omniscient novel with a cynical narrator, but whereas he was very successful at this, she failed, because her forte' was actually the personal novel. I've also heard that the dialogue is wooden. As you can see, I haven't read it because of all the bad reports. But I'm curious to see how uch Shirley is based on Emily, and the York family on Mary Taylor's. . ."}, {"response": 4, "author": "classic", "date": "Sat, Feb  7, 1998 (22:16)", "body": "Actually I liked \"Shirley.\" The writing was jumbled and fell apart at the end, but I liked the characters and story in general. Of course her siblings' deaths affected her writing, and I think that with the book she set out to give people a good image of her sisters, especially Emily. Maybe that's why 'shirley' and 'caroline' end up happier in the end than most of her heroines. One interesting thing I noticed was that the mother of Caroline(the character based on Anne) had the real name of Agnes Grey. Amy, it really does seem that Charlotte tries to write like Thackeray. Of course there are parts where she breaks down and gives us a first-person view, as in Louis Moore's journal papers. But I liked the book; I think it showed a lot of Charlotte. Especially in that chapter Amy mentions- it's almost painful reading that, knowing."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Linden", "date": "Sun, Feb  8, 1998 (18:51)", "body": "There are other gems in \"Shirley\", such as (IMHO): The line \"If her admirers would call her an angel, they could treat her like an idiot.\" Classic Bimbo put-down. The character of Helstone is beautifully done, (is he based on the Bronte father?) The up-front way in which Shirley decides to organise charity for the poor of the village - it took my breath away when she says openly: \"I'll go in for charity to stop them rebelling and attacking my property.\" As political analysis it beats hell out of anything written by Thackeray."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Feb  9, 1998 (12:17)", "body": "That is a great line! I also understand that Charlotte was very upfront about the condition of women in this novel -- is this where her famous line \"half angel/half doll\" comes from? I do think that Charlotte was so consumed with everyone dying around her that the structure of the novel became jumbled, which is certainly understandable. Still, a failure from a great writer can be more interesting than a success from a mediocre one, yes?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Matushka", "date": "Sat, Feb 28, 1998 (11:22)", "body": "I found Shirley totally different to JE like most readers of those novels. Parts of it were quite depressing but this is not surprising given the state of Charlotte's personal life at the time of writing. Mary Taylor, however, found Shirley more to her liking than JE \"Shirley is more interesting than Jane Eyre- who indeed never interests you at all until she has something to suffer\" (Mary Taylor was the model for Rose Yorke)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  2, 1998 (12:43)", "body": "I'm sure that SHIRLEY engaged Mary more, since she was such a pioneering feminist! Not to mention her entire family being portrayed as the Yorkes. . . Is SHIRLEY as bad as they say? Does anyone out there think that it's worth reading? Thanks."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Mamie", "date": "Sun, Mar 15, 1998 (13:02)", "body": "Yes I do. I don't think it's fair to say Shirley is a bad novel. It is very different to JE but then Charlotte wasn't a \"formula\" writer. The novel is popular here in the West Riding probably because Charlotte has told some of the areas history in it. Also the characters in it are more real and like people one is likely meet in these parts. One doesn't meet Rochester types all that often! In some ways Shirley is more real than JE, maybe not for people wanting an escapist read though."}, {"response": 10, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 17, 1998 (12:25)", "body": "Thanks Mamie. I want to give it a try one of these days. I love Charlotte's writing, and I think a great writer's \"failure\" can be more interesting than say, one of Jackie Collins' \"successes.\" I'd like to see how Charlotte handles social problems, even those of the past. I actually think if she had had more confidence in this area, she could have been just as influential as Dickens in exposing Victorian cruelty and the rottenness of some of its institutions. But she felt her realm was the personal, as Jane Austen did."}, {"response": 11, "author": "MichaelMullen", "date": "Wed, Apr  1, 1998 (13:35)", "body": "Hi all. My two cents on Shirley is that it's very much worth reading. I don't think it's as great a book as Jane Eyre or Villette, but that doesn't mean it's not very good indeed. In some ways it's easier to read than Villette, which really takes you through the emotional wringer. I think it's very much in an English tradition of books about \"what are women to do?\"...going back at least to Sarah Fielding's \"The Governess.\" I thoroughly enjoyed it, and was very moved by parts of it."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Heulwen", "date": "Mon, Sep 21, 1998 (18:17)", "body": "I enjoyed Shirley. I had read that when she had completed the first thrid of the novel, Emily and Patrick died, and at the end of the second Anne died. I found that the tone changed at the end of the first volume, and by the end of the second it was falling apart. I found that it was wasted potential almost and at the beginning very good, but it didn't turn out the way I had expected it to (in reference to tone, and it got rather predictable, I read CB's novels in this order:The Professor, Vilette, Shirley, Jane Eyre) I must confess that I was rather disappointed with the pupil-teacher love story being used again (and twice in the same book), after having read it in The Professor and in Vilette, and after having read all the biographies I could it seemed rather a tortured retelling of what could have been.. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 55, "subject": "Jane Eyre: Group Discussion Topics", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Mar  4, 1998 (16:34)", "body": "Hmmm... How about the way Charlotte uses Nature to reflect the emotions of her characters? And the whole notion of equality between the sexes -- that Rochester declares Jane his equal, but she can't fully become so until he is \"punished\" at the end and must rely on her. In a way, the book finishes with him in a -dependent- position. Maybe look at Charlotte and her use of language as the rightful heir to the Romantic poets? And seeing how Jane compares to another governess -- AGNES GREY, and to Fanny Price in Austen's MANSFIELD PARK. I think that Jane is absolutely the most full-blooded, independent, and tough-minded of the three. Just some stuff off the top of my head! Wish I could attend the function! amy =="}, {"response": 2, "author": "melissa", "date": "Sun, Mar 15, 1998 (23:44)", "body": "Speaking of book discussions.....I'm leading one on Wuthering Heights Thursday (yikes!) and then co-leading Jane Eyre in April! I actually found this wonderful place today while I was searching for helpful info. JE has been my favorite book since I picked it up in high school. I've never read it critically before, just for enjoyment. And that's the thing about this book -- the language is so beautiful, you can't help but enjoy it. Charlotte was a great storyteller, creating such an interesting plot, but I think she could have written a grocery list and made it sing. One thing that springs to mind about the story is the role of coincidence in the plot(I did a paper on a Thomas Hardy novel on that topic, which is why it comes to mind). Jane is walking home and spooks Rochester's horse. Jane hears something and saves Rochester from being burned in his bed. The wedding is interrupted exactly at the altar. Jane finds shelter at her (unknown to her) kinsmen's home. I'm just coming up with these examples off the top of my head -- I'm sure there are more. I guess coincidence doesn't really support the theme of an independent woman, but it's interesting. The other thing that I find memorable about Jane as a character is her unflinching commitment to doing her duty. There are no moral gray areas for her. She does what's right because it's right, not because it's easy or even pleasant. She speaks her mind at the expense of her personal comfort. I think it used to be called \"character\" back before people made a science of justifying their behavior by blaming t eir dysfunctional families. Anyway, I'll be watching to see if anyone has some good discussion topics! So glad I found this place! Melissa"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 17, 1998 (11:29)", "body": "Welcome Melissa! Always glad to have a new \"face\" here!! As far as coincidence in JANE EYRE, this was basically a standard convention of Victorian novels in general. If you look at the coincidence in Dickens novels, for example, it gets pretty absurd. What readers would accept in the 19th century has changed so radically that you could -never- get away with these plot devices today. This just occured to me while watching MAN IN THE IRON MASK - I love Dumas, but the amazing coincidences in the plot bas cally play like howlers today."}, {"response": 4, "author": "melissa", "date": "Wed, Mar 18, 1998 (01:11)", "body": "I hadn't realized how Victorian our book club reading list was this year! We're doing \"Man in the Iron Mask\" and Dickens' \"A Tale of Two Cities\" as well as Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights. We'll have a great basis for some comparative lit discussions! I wonder if it would be interesting to discuss Jane Eyre noting the counterpoint between the aspects of the novel that were shocking or unfeminine by Victorian standards, but which are non-issues for modern readers and the devices (like the heavy use of coincidence) which were common to the Victorians but seem strange to us now? Personally, I'd need to do a lot more studying to discourse on that subject, but it could be interesting."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Mar 19, 1998 (17:20)", "body": "That certainly would be! One amazing Dickensian coincidence that springs to mind is from OLIVER TWIST -- the kindly old man who takes Oliver in off the street after the boy is accused of picking his pocket is none other than. . . His long-lost rich Uncle! Also, the amazing \"twin\" resemblance in TALE OF TWO CITIES, which Dumas uses in MAN IN THE IRON MASK. As far as JANE EYRE, some of the critics' objections were that the book was \"coarse\" in its frank treatment of passion. And Jane definitely offends Victorian notions of class with her \"we are equals\" speech. Plus, Rochester's frank admission of having European mistresses & an illegitimate ward; and of his father & brother cruelly setting him up to marry Bertha, must have been highly offensive to V. sensibilities. Plus, he and Jane TOUCH when he takes her hand in the bedchamber after the fire! And her being there in the first place -- shocking, I tell you! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 56, "subject": "Bronte manuscript discovered?", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Mar  9, 1998 (12:36)", "body": "I personally have never heard about this, and no one has mentioned it on the Bronte List either. I suspect it's probably just a rumour. Do you know where the mss. was allegedly found? Probably not in the Parsonage, since Arthur Bell Nicholls took all of his Bronteana up to Ireland when he moved there after Patrick's death. There has long been a rumour that Charlotte buried letters & perhaps a mss. in the garden of Haworth, but again, no proof. It's fun to speculate though!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "MSchadler", "date": "Mon, Mar  9, 1998 (15:05)", "body": "I just did a search of CNN's website and the only thing to come up regarding a lost (or found) manuscript was regarding Margaret Mitchell's \"Lost Laysen.\" A 13,000 word handwritten manuscript she completed at the age of 15. That news story appeared in April '97. There were only two Brotne references at their entire site, one about the Tony Awards and another about the William Hurt film of Jane Eyre. I wonder if Holden's father came across the Mitchell article and accidentally relayed it as Bronte? Lori"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Holden", "date": "Mon, Mar  9, 1998 (18:03)", "body": "This sparked my curiosity, so I went to the local college library & searched their indexes of newspaper articles from all major papers. I found an article from February 28th from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch about a previously unpublished (in America) piece of Bronte juvenalia. ----------- MISSOURI PROFESSOR FINDS A SMALL TREASURE FOR CHARLOTTE BRONTE FANS by Jane Henderson; Post-Dispatch Book Editor A Missourian has excavated a tiny artifact for America's Charlotte Bronte enthusiasts. It's a fossil of the literary sort, archaeology that strained not the back but the eyes of Speer Morgan, an English professor at the University of Missouri at Columbia and editor of the respected journal The Missouri Review. Although the book was bot precisely lost, The Missouri Review calls it a \"found text\" because it had never been published in the United States for the general public. The tiny book, smaller than a credit card, was written and then sewn together by Charlotte Bronte in 1829 when she was 13. In the tale, \"The Search After Happiness,\" a Byronic hero \"of a dark complexion and searching black eye\" sets out on a mystical journey and encounters a fellow traveler, who accompanies him for years in a romantic and desolate countryside. [SNIP] --------- I think this may be the \"discovered manuscript\" as it was in the news at about the right time. Best wishes, J.H."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Mar 10, 1998 (12:40)", "body": "Ah ha! More Angria stuff! I wonder where they found it. . . Not a major find like Emily's 2nd novel but still nice to have around. I can't believe how small the Brontes could get their handwriting to write those little books. You literally need a magnifying glass to read the text! A very successful way of hiding literary endeavors from Patrick, I guess. . ."}, {"response": 5, "author": "BerthaMason", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (07:25)", "body": "Is it possible that you read a review of Robert Barnard\ufffds novel \"The case of the missing Bronte\"? There a long-lost manuscript of Emily Bronte is discovered by a policeman and Brontefan. Shortly the number of manuscript hunters increases... bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 57, "subject": "Meaning of \"Enough of Thought, Philosopher\"", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 58, "subject": "Reading Jane Eyre (again) -- anyone want to read along?", "response_count": 6, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Apr  1, 1998 (19:32)", "body": "Melissa: I recently re-read JE, so I'm more than happy to grab that cyber-latte' and chat with you about it! amy =="}, {"response": 2, "author": "melissa", "date": "Thu, Apr  2, 1998 (00:29)", "body": "Can you believe I'm still reading the intro? It's pretty involved, and helpful if you already know the story. But if you were new to JE, it would sort of spoil the plot for you. I'm looking forward to getting to Charlotte's words -- that gal knew how to turn a phrase! Do any manuscripts show evidence of much reworking, or did she just write that well in her rough drafts? chat ya later! Melissa"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Apr  2, 1998 (12:37)", "body": "I saw the original mss. on display at the Parsonage in Haworth. Granted, it was her final copy, but I saw very little evidence of revisions. Charlotte herslf said she had written the whole Thornfield portion in a white heat, so maybe this was all first draft stuff! Which is pretty amazing, considering the quality. But I was really struck by the lack of cross-outs in the manuscript itself. . ."}, {"response": 4, "author": "melissa", "date": "Sun, Apr 19, 1998 (01:38)", "body": "Hi Amy! Sorry it's taken so long to get back. Easter prep consumes a lot of time with kids! Anyway, we had our book club discussion of JE on Thursday night, and it was pretty lively. Everyone definitely liked the story better after she leaves Lowood. The topic of romance actually ended up with all of us swapping tales about how we met our own spouses and how they proposed! I mentioned some of the unusual words Charlotte used, like \"irids\" for eyes, and that actually turned out to be appealing to some other reader . The edition I read had lots of footnotes, and one of them remarked that conditions at Lowood couldn't have been too bad since Jane didn't eat the burned porridge, but did eat the discarded porridge intended for the swine when she was rambling cross country. I found that to be a ridiculous comparison, since in one situation she and the other girls knew there would be another \"meal\" later that day, and in the other, Jane had no idea where her next meal would come from! I realized for the first time that Jane herself was indirectly responsible for the interruption of the marriage ceremony. Her letter to her uncle is what alerted the Mason family to the impending nuptials. She effectively saved herself from ruin. One gal noticed that her cousins on either side of her family were sort of distorted mirror images. St. John is holy vs. John Reed being dissolute, and the two pairs of sisters were definitely opposite in their treatment of Jane. I've got the Timothy Dalton version of JE to watch now -- some think he's too handsome for the role, but if you consider that we're seeing him as Jane sees him, I don't see it as a problem. And I like the way he delivers the lines. Whenever there's some sort of segue that Charlotte didn't write herself, it really sticks out. The screenplay really could have been tweaked a little more to make the transitions less obtrusive to the informed viewer. Easy to be a critic, hard to actually fill the shoes, I'm su e. Anyway, it's fun to run through the story top to bottom every so often. Who knows what I'll find next time?! Melissa"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Smantha", "date": "Thu, Oct 14, 1999 (17:28)", "body": "This is not a response.I have no idea what to do.Are people still loking at this?The last post was last year from what I can see.I love Jane Eyre and if you are reading,help me!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (11:13)", "body": "I've not read Jane Eyre since about 1996, but I still love it. So, go ahead, Smantha - tell us what you like most about the book. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 59, "subject": "Interesting theory on Heathcliff", "response_count": 1, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Holden", "date": "Fri, Apr 24, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "It's an interesting theory... I can definately see that Heathcliff was noticeably different in appearance from the other characters. I'm no \"expert\" -- just a Bronte fan -- but I think that it seems pretty clear that Heathcliff really is of Gypsy (not African) origins. Here is some evidence: At the very beginning of the book, when we first meet Heathcliff, Lockwood tells us, \" ...Mr. Heathcliff forms a singular contrast to his abode and style of living. He is a dark-skinned gypsy in aspect, in dress and manners a gentleman...\" Heathcliff's \"style of living\" is in contrast to the nomadic Gypsy lifestyle. And Gypsies usually have swarthy skin, blue-black hair, expressive, dark eyes and strong teeth, and are usually hardy in constitution. Doesn't this sound like Heathcliff's description in the novel? Also, the Gypsies have a unique, exclusive society and way of life. They call themselves \"Rom\" and refer to everyone else as \"Gaje\" or \"foreigners.\" And the fact that they still exist and still maintain their way of life in a technological, industrial world is remarkable; in other words, their failure to \"fit into\" the regular style of European living seems to be a perfect origin for Heathcliff. One can imagine that the Gypsies, with all their mystery, had a romantic appeal for Emily, and their impenetrable, nomadic way of life (even today it is not known really how large their population is) was an ideal setting for her hero, whose origins are wrapped in mystery. When Heathcliff is very young and depressed over his shabby appearance in contrast to Edgar Linton's more gentlemanly garb, Nelly cleans him up and tells him, \"Who knows but your father was Emporer of China, and your mother an Indian queen, each of them able to buy up, with one week's income, Wuthering Heights and Thrushcross Grange together?\" At the end of the novel, after Heathcliff has destroyed the two families, Nelly's musing are more negative: \"But where did he come from, that dark little thing, harboured by a good man to his bane?... And I began, half dreaming, to weary myself with imagining some fit parentage for him...\" She is probably remembering his first arrival in the house, when the \"gibberish that nobody could understand\" that he kept repeating was probably some phrase in Romani, the Gyspy language. Anyway, it seems to be a very fitting circumstance to me. Of course, I think that Emily is trying to tell us something more important, more spiritual than anything of real \"social significance\" that some people seem desperate to find, but it's not my thesis, so none of my business. Just an opinion. J.H. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 6, "subject": "The Role of Governess in AG & JE", "response_count": 11, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "Anne really was a governess (and a successful one) while Charlotte never was very good at the job -- she was constantly seeking something else to do (be a student in Brussells, for example) and living in her imagination. While it might be more interesting to read strictly imaginative literature, it might not be as good a way to live your life. Anyway, compare second novels (JE was Charlotte's first published, because her first novel, The Professor, wasn't good enough to get accepted when Wuthering Heights and Agnes Grey DID). The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is more imaginative and romantic, although Gilbert is not as wickedly sexy as Mr. Rochester."}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (11:41)", "body": "It did take Charlotte longer to hit her novelistic stride, but when she did, look out! I have to say, I'm not a huge fan of TENANT -- I don't know why. It seems more a point-by-point recitation of brutality -- to me, it doesn't have the narrative flow of JE or AGNES GREY. I'm really curious to see the film adaptation & how they handled the extended flashback, etc."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Susan", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (23:27)", "body": "It *was* brutal, Amy, but I thought the narrative flowed well. It repulsed and fascinated me at the same time, and I couldn't wait to see what would happen next! The advance press on the adaptation seems to be good; I'm really looking forward to seeing it."}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (11:21)", "body": "Susan - I've heard really good things about it! I guess what I had a problem with in TENANT is this: Just when I was getting completely involved in Gilbert & his travails in wooing Helen, along comes this very long \"epistle\" from her detailing her past life, & I felt snatched from the main action. I had a hard time re-focusing on _Helen_, and then, I got so engrossed in HER story, I felt jarred when Anne took us back to the present!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (13:53)", "body": "Hi! I thought I'd entered a response here yesterday, but evidently it was eaten by the Yapp monster. Give, give, GIVE info on this film adaptation! Is it on video? For theatrical release? I'm an Anne fan, although I love Charlotte's novels as well, and I'd love to see if an adaptation can get around the awkward flashback sequence (maybe by spreading it out?)."}, {"response": 6, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (20:42)", "body": "Lorie: I haven't seen it, since it hasn't aired in the States, but has in Canada. I see it's for sale at the Bronte Parsonage Gift Soft, so I may buy it there."}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (20:42)", "body": "Lorie: I haven't seen it, since it hasn't aired in the States, but has in Canada. I see it's for sale at the Bronte Parsonage Gift Store, so I may buy it there."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (00:11)", "body": "Amy, I guess I just don't mind flashbacks, although I know some people do. For instance, The English Patient was far from my favorite movie, but the flashbacks didn't bother me at all. However, even people who liked it complained about them. In Tenant, I felt that it wasn't until the flashbacks that I could get to know, let alone like, Helen. Some of the people who saw it in Canada posted at Pemberley, and said they liked the way it was handled, and were happy with the casting. We can only hope, I guess -- I'm looking forward to it very much!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "Extended flashbacks have always bothered me -- for me, they take me out of the story. I thought ENGLISH PATIENT's structure was very fragmented. But I understand they've done something clever with the TENANT F.B. in the latest version, which I'm curious to see. BTW, Here's a potential tragedy brewing: PBS is airing Part I of TENANT while A&E is airing the new JANE EYRE -on the same night- : Oct. 19th. What shall we do?!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Susan", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (16:58)", "body": "Amy, this was posted by Cheryl on the VirtView board at Pemberley: JANE EYRE will premiere on October 19th at 8PM ET, 9PM PT. The program will repeat on October 21st at 9PM ET, 10PM PT. Please check your local listings on that date. JANE EYRE is a 2 1/2 hour presentation. So that still gives people the opportunity to tape both. But one has to wonder why it's always feast or famine!!!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug 28, 1997 (19:38)", "body": "That is good to know! Otherwise, we Bronte fans would be in a terrible dilemma! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 60, "subject": "Setting In Wuthering Heights", "response_count": 1, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "HopeW", "date": "Wed, Jun  9, 1999 (14:43)", "body": "At the start of Wuthering heights when the man who's renting the grange goes in he see's it as a rather depressing house with a rather unfriendly atmosphere. On the second visit he see's it more of a house full of very strange people, who he later on finds out all have had very strange and rather depressing life stories all of the effected by the death of Cathy Earnshaw. The heights is supposed to always hold all the passion of the events that took place there in the past. This is sensed by the Narrator at the start even though he does not yet know the story of the heights. The Heights are where Cathy always belonged and always knew she belonged. The grange is the rather convetional house in which she ended up living and dieing in. Cathy loved the Heights because she was very nostalgic about her childhood that she had lost after her first stay at the grange when she was o ly twelve. In losing her childhood she lost Heatcliff as a companion and they fell in love even though they carried opn as if they were companions and Cathy would not admit her love for Heathcliff until she was already engaged to Edgar, this resulting in tradgedy. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 62, "subject": "do the characters in WH represent the whole mankind?", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 63, "subject": "I'm baaaccckk...", "response_count": 6, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Oct 18, 1998 (22:34)", "body": "Welcome back!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Mick1", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (07:25)", "body": "Hi Amy, - Nice to see something stirring on this conference once again: when I re-discovered it, at its new URL, it was looking like a long-deserted ghost town! Now all we need is everybody else . . . Mick."}, {"response": 3, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (07:49)", "body": "Email 'em all! The conference list is available to hosts and I can help with this if you like."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Agneta", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (16:25)", "body": "Friends! Surfed in day after day and finally, I\ufffdm not alone anymore ! Let us gather around this \"cyber\"-waterhole . Love / AnnaG"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (20:42)", "body": "Welcome Agneta!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Agneta", "date": "Sun, Oct 25, 1998 (15:10)", "body": "Hi again ! Something about me : I\ufffdm just a newbie with a bad english, lives in Sweden, and my next literary goal is to read JE in original. / Agneta bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 64, "subject": "Poems", "response_count": 5, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Heulwen", "date": "Thu, Oct 22, 1998 (19:17)", "body": "I also like The Captive Dove. I recently purchased a poetry book that includes Patrick Branwell's poetry as well as the other three."}, {"response": 2, "author": "BerthaMason", "date": "Wed, Oct 28, 1998 (06:23)", "body": "Isn\ufffdt it a shame that the Brontes\ufffd poetry has been neglected for so long? There are some truly beautiful gems and treasures hidden in their work which should at last be made public. Unfortunately there are few if any good, cheap editions. At least the poems of Acton, Currer, and Ellis Bell are now available on the internet. Sorry, I can\ufffdt remember the site."}, {"response": 3, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (04:24)", "body": "And the volume of Emily's poetry alone, has been so heavily edited by Charlotte that one isn't sure WHO one is reading. I would have loved to see the poems in their original form."}, {"response": 4, "author": "saranha77", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 2004 (23:26)", "body": "I must confess to not being very informed about poetry, mostly of my own chosing, but I fell in love with Emily's \"Night Wind\" the moment I read it."}, {"response": 5, "author": "cfadm", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 2004 (23:53)", "body": "Can you post an excerpt or two? bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 65, "subject": "NEED HELP: regarding Cleopatra, Vashti in Villette", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 66, "subject": "Emily Bronte ,strange feminist", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 67, "subject": "WUTHERING HEIGHT", "response_count": 1, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (10:18)", "body": "I think of Wuthering Heights as a comment on human nature. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 68, "subject": "Jane Eyre,book and movies", "response_count": 4, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 18, 1999 (11:06)", "body": "You might want to introduce yourself first in the porch conference, where most folks start out. Glad you're joining us!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Smantha", "date": "Mon, Oct 18, 1999 (21:25)", "body": "If you would be so kind as to take pity on a silly young women by telling her, How does she get there?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Tue, Oct 19, 1999 (12:57)", "body": "Welcome to the Spring! The Porch-Conference, voil\ufffd: http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/porch/all And the Intro-Topic is here: http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/read/porch/1 When you go to your Main Menu (e.g. via the link below the response-typing-box, below the \"preserve as unread\"), click on Conference Index. That takes you to a page listing all the flavors the Spring offers (at least in terms of Conferences). Click on \"Add to Hotlist\", and it'll be on your Main Menu from then on, enabling you to better keep track of it. If you want to check it out first, just click on the Conference's name, and you're there! (Silly I can handle... Uh, how young did you say?)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Tue, Oct 19, 1999 (12:57)", "body": ";=} bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 69, "subject": "please have a look at my Jane Eyre page!", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 7, "subject": "PUBLICITY!", "response_count": 4, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (20:07)", "body": "Amy: Not sure if you got my e-mail about helping you with being a temporary co-host here, while my \"kids\" visit this conference, and to work on the HTML page heading, preface, graphics, etc., to make it bolder/bigger. Anyway, at school your place will definitly get publicity."}, {"response": 2, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 20, 1997 (20:47)", "body": "Thanks France! Lori has kindly volunteered to be Our Fabulous Hostess in my absence. I would -love- for this site to have more pictures!! Any help would be much appreciated. And I am looking forward to your class posting to this board. When will they start reading WH?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "alfresco", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (14:13)", "body": "The sophomore class read it over the summer, along with 1984 . May I contact Terry directly to get \"cohost key\" to upgrade the graphics and header here right away, then? (need it to work on the HTML)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 22, 1997 (17:11)", "body": "Sure! His e-mail address is on the main Spring page. I'm glad someone here knows how to do this! I did actually manage to post several Bronte pix to this Board though. I felt a real sense of triumph.... bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 70, "subject": "questions about Shirley", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 71, "subject": "Branwell Bronte", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 72, "subject": "Still out there?", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 73, "subject": "Bronte pen names", "response_count": 1, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Aug 16, 2003 (10:05)", "body": "I don't ... but I would suggest you try a google search on these keywords. I would be very curious if you found the answer. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 74, "subject": "Theories about Charlotte", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 75, "subject": "new website about the Bronte Sisters!", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Oct 14, 2005 (08:55)", "body": "That's a great list. Would you like to become host of this conference? We need a host and we will help support you in this effort."}, {"response": 2, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Fri, Oct 14, 2005 (13:35)", "body": "Well, I took a close look at the board. 1000 messages in 8 years indicates that the members of this board are fairly lazy about writing... The spiritedness of a board is depending on its members, on *each and every one of them*! The Brontes, their lives, their works provide countless topics for further discussion, but as long as people are not taking the time to communicate their thoughts, it is, and will be, a fruitless undertaking... you see, I`m a rather emotional person, and passionate about the Brontes... holding monologues (like the last host did) would make me unhappy. Nevertheless: your offer was kindly meant, I appreciate it & want to thank your for it! :-) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 3, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Oct 14, 2005 (15:06)", "body": "What, if I emailed all the old users and asked them to come back home? I've been waiting for a new host to do this. Also, I could promote it. You know our http://firth.com site gets quite a few visitors and there may be an overlap in interests. Would firthfans translate to bronte fans?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Fri, Oct 14, 2005 (20:51)", "body": "As I can see from the postings, Amy2, the last host, did her best in keeping the list up & alive - it has not worked out! I don\u00b4t have her angelic patience, and therefore, won\u00b4t follow in her footsteps... sorry, Terry! Most people got to know Colin Firth from his role as Mr. Darcy in \"Pride and Prejudice\", I suppose - he did a brilliant job, one could almost say he was born to play Darcy :-) - BTW, there\u00b4s a new version to be released soon... the trailer alone sent shivers of horror down my spine, would I survive watching the whole movie? lol! Where was I? well, as always in life, there are people who can coexist peacefully, but I\u00b4ve also come across debates of Austen lovers and Bronte lovers who had nothing better to do than verbally tearing eachothers books into pieces! kindergarden is what I call that! ;-) so, it depends on the individual, I think. (IMO, the Austen books are literary masterpieces, yet compared to the Bronte books, they lack some kind of depth of their characters - that is basically the result of the storyline, and has nothing to do with the *quality* of the books) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Oct 14, 2005 (23:01)", "body": "If you find anyone, send her/him this way please!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Oct 15, 2005 (05:01)", "body": "OK! bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 7, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Oct 15, 2005 (09:44)", "body": "Thanks. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 76, "subject": "WELCOME, FELLOW BRONTE FANS! :-)", "response_count": 14, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (13:26)", "body": "This is a great thing you're doing! Thanks!!!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (16:48)", "body": "Hey, thank you, etorb! :-) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 3, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (22:02)", "body": "What's the address of your web project? What are some good starter websites for learning about the Brontes?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (22:28)", "body": "You might want to add this site to http://members.tripod.com/~AthenaIris/ring.html The Jane Eyre web ring."}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (23:28)", "body": "Good idea. I'll bet a lot of the Bronte sites have links pages and it's easy to get them to include your site by asking them to in an email. And it's always nice to reciprocate. The Bronte Conference address to give out is: http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/public/browse/bronte/all"}, {"response": 6, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (06:19)", "body": "Oh, I thought you\ufffdd know anyway, etorb! Here it is: Bronte Sisters Links ( It\ufffds a collection of links about the Bronte Sisters, everything you ever wanted to know about them ;-) .... located at the Yahoo Groups system without being a discussion group.... 1770 links on the Brontes so far! Freely accessible (as if it was a normal website) and non-commercial, of course! Just a labour of love.... ) Tell me what you think of it.... and hey, if you know any webpages which are not yet included, please let me know - I\ufffdm on a never-ending search!! :-) PS: The Jane Eyre webring is now called Brontes in performance webring, isn\ufffdt it?! I\ufffdm already a member of this ring! :-))) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 7, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (06:21)", "body": "Yes, Terry, most of the Bronte related pages have link-sections! I checked them all and added the links to my page! :-)) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 8, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (09:22)", "body": "Have you thought of setting up your great set of links at http://delicious.com Delicious is the hot, trendy new way to display links and they get out to quite an audience."}, {"response": 9, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (12:31)", "body": "Thank you for the tip, Terry... it sounds great! :-) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 10, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (18:42)", "body": "delicious takes a little bit of getting used to but once you get on with it it's pretty amazing."}, {"response": 11, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (20:30)", "body": "okay, I\ufffdll give it a try! bye:-), Miss Eyre."}, {"response": 12, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Mar 27, 2006 (15:29)", "body": "You can see my http://del.icio.us/springnet bookmarks at that url."}, {"response": 13, "author": "etorb", "date": "Mon, Mar 27, 2006 (19:52)", "body": "I checked out delicious and it's *great*!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Mar 28, 2006 (08:29)", "body": "It's pretty amazing. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 77, "subject": "fictional characters vs. real-life men", "response_count": 14, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (22:09)", "body": "Of course Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy. But there's a whole conference on Spring about that. see http://www.spring.net/karenr/articles/independent060900.html"}, {"response": 2, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (06:45)", "body": "Yeah, Colin Firth was born to play Darcy! :-)))) It\ufffds strange but I always get to know great literature by watching the movies first... zapped through the channels one night until I came across a very amusing scene: Lizzy just refused Mr. Collins` offer of marriage and her mother lamented about dying home- and pennyless!LOL! I watched it to the end... and read the book afterwards :-)... bought the soundtrack and the making-of book, ordered a poster from the local copy shop (where they are able to print large posters from photographs) and created a webpage about my favourite scenes (which I deleted years ago). At the time, I thought no other character came close to Mr.Darcy in wit, intelligence and charm.... until I met Rochester in the shape of William Hurt :-)))..... They\ufffdre both charming in their own ways :-) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 3, "author": "etorb", "date": "Mon, Mar 27, 2006 (19:53)", "body": "Is there a fan fiction site for the Bronte sisters?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sun, Apr  2, 2006 (05:23)", "body": "No! interesting idea :-) bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 5, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Apr  2, 2006 (11:25)", "body": "I'm surprised one doesn't exist."}, {"response": 6, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Apr  8, 2006 (01:55)", "body": "Well, there are some spin-off books of Jane Eyre, telling Adele`s story, for example. And there\ufffds, of course, Rhys\ufffd book \"Wide Sargasso Sea\" (a prequel to Jane Eyre). Her book is a sacrilege in my eyes. bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 7, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Apr  8, 2006 (22:12)", "body": "What was so bad about it?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sun, Apr 23, 2006 (10:06)", "body": "sorry for writing so late... Well, she tells Bertha\ufffds story, her decline into madness. In Jane Eyre, we don\ufffdt get to know about her life story, so, from that point of view, the book could have been valuable. But she basically blames Rochester **my dear Edward** for her state of mind, which is impertinent of her - and intolerable! :-) bye:-), Miss Eyre."}, {"response": 9, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Apr 23, 2006 (19:09)", "body": "What are your top 5 fictional characters?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Wed, Apr 26, 2006 (18:39)", "body": "Well, here\ufffds my general list: 1) Jane Eyre my role model ;-))) ... one of the lessons I learnt from her is the importance of forgiveness... 2) Edward Fairfax Rochester Well, what can I say... he\ufffds my hero :-)), a man of great character... sincere, kind, truthful, passionate, intelligent, witty, great sense of humor, sensitive... 3) Vincent (tv-show The Beauty and the Beast) This TV show was my sanctuary, my weekly dose of sanity. It\ufffds about a community of outsiders, the stranded of society. They live in a long forgotten system of tunnels below the New Yorker Underground. The series focuses on the relationship/romance between Catherine, an attorney, and Vincent, a member of this secret world. He is half-lion, half-human :-). When their paths crossed for the first time, Catherine was nearer to death than to life. He took her with him and nursed her, and -with the help of \"Father\" (the head of the community, a doc and Vincent\ufffds surrogate father)- he saved her life. Vincent could sense when she was in serious trouble (due to her job) and saved her life more than once... At the age of 15, I regarded Vincent to be the ideal companion, for he is a such a loving, caring, thoughtful, sensitive person, he\ufffds got excellent taste in literature and music... he reads poems to Catherine and they attend classical music concerts together... his profoundness fascinated me, and still does... Well, Vincent is a Gentleman from head to toe :-). 4) Gil Grissom (tv-show CSI: Crime Scene Investigation) CSI is a series about the work of forensic scientists, located in Las Vegas. (The spin-offs to this show are not as good as the original, CSI Miami is okay, CSI NY is dull). Interesting cases, *realistic methodology*, awesome special effects, one of the few detective shows where you really need to think to get it. Grissom is one of the team leaders. A quiet, earnest, reserved man with a dry form of humor, very intelligent, thoroughly analytical in his approach... watching him work on the cases, the way he pays attention to every detail, is a delight. He\ufffdd be an interesting conversational partner if he wasn\ufffdt such a social recluse! His special field of study is entomology -- brrr LOL! 5) Fitzwilliam Darcy (novel Pride and Prejudice) my favourite Paulus! :-))). bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 11, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, May  2, 2006 (21:41)", "body": "Grissom is a great character, a perfect role for him. I love his exhanges with the Marge Helgenberg character. Such a great interplay of characters."}, {"response": 12, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Wed, May  3, 2006 (03:24)", "body": "yeah, I love his dry humor! :-)) the chemistry between Grissom and Sidle is great, too! :-) bye:-). Miss Eyre."}, {"response": 13, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, May  3, 2006 (04:25)", "body": "Now, which character is sidle?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Wed, May  3, 2006 (08:19)", "body": "the woman in the second row! bye:-), Miss Eyre bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 78, "subject": "Jane\ufffds story in modern times", "response_count": 7, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (13:32)", "body": "Have you seen the Jane Austin fan fiction site at http://austen.com ? That's a real mother lode of fan fiction."}, {"response": 2, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (13:32)", "body": "see http://austen.com/derby/"}, {"response": 3, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (17:00)", "body": "Yeah, I\ufffdve just taken a look at the pages.... extensive link collections :-)! I didn\ufffdt know that there was so much out there about Jane Austen! amazing.... bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 4, "author": "etorb", "date": "Fri, Mar 24, 2006 (22:03)", "body": "Could you give us some examples to break the ice?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sat, Mar 25, 2006 (07:08)", "body": "of course... Well, I think a relationship of their sort would be no problem today as difference in age or social status is not seen as a problem in today\ufffds *modern urban western society* The only problem I see is the attitude of both of them towards oneanother, and towards living together... modern women are much less \"convenient\" than women of the 19th century, in the sense that they expect their men to help them in the daily tasks such as house-hold and parenting, especially when they\ufffdre working, too! Would Rochester have cooked dinner or changed his son`s diapers if Jane had asked him? :-)) She never would have asked in the first place! Nowadays, a man can\ufffdt escape such things - if he likes it or not! LOL! I must confess that the men\ufffds hardships caused by women\ufffds emancipation amuse me greatly... my brother, for example, is able to do all these things: he cooks, cleans his room & the windows, does his laundry and irons his shirts. He knows it because we, my mother and I, taught him by refusing to do it for him! LOL! It took several years to educate him, and it was quite a battle at times, but *now* he\ufffds a pro... and the woman who marries him will be thankful for having relieved her of this struggle! ;-))) I\ufffdm not sure if a man who is 20 years the woman`s senior is *willing* to adapt to the new situation..... bye:-), Miss Eyre"}, {"response": 6, "author": "etorb", "date": "Mon, Mar 27, 2006 (19:54)", "body": "You really prepped that brother of yours, he will be quite a catch."}, {"response": 7, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sun, Apr  2, 2006 (05:58)", "body": "True, he`s prepared now to be a good modern man! LOL! A good brother of late, I must say :-). The whole point is to teach men respect, to teach them that women are not primarily their cooks, laundresses and cleaning ladies! It never ceases to amaze me that as soon as there`s a woman in the house, she is *expected* to do all these things on her own! You know what I used to say to silence my Dad or brother? - \"You\ufffdve got two hands, five fingers each - you can do it yourself!\" LOL! Knockout guaranteed! ;-))) BTW, the above strategy comes into operation only when my brother is healthy... in sickness, we nurse him, of course :-) Anyway. bye:-), Miss Eyre bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 79, "subject": "Jane Eyre - Emotional / Romantic Scenes", "response_count": 1, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "thornfield", "date": "Sun, Jun  4, 2006 (10:58)", "body": "*Shame on me*, I forgot to add this (Jane`s conclusion): My tale draws to its close: one word respecting my experience of married life, and one brief glance at the fortunes of those whose names have most frequently recurred in this narrative, and I have done. I have now been married ten years. I know what it is to live entirely for and with what I love best on earth. I hold myself supremely blest--blest beyond what language can express; because I am my husband's life as fully is he is mine. No woman was ever nearer to her mate than I am: ever more absolutely bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. I know no weariness of my Edward's society: he knows none of mine, any more than we each do of the pulsation of the heart that beats in our separate bosoms; consequently, we are ever together. To be together is for us to be at once as free as in solitude, as gay as in company. We talk, I believe, all day long: to talk to each other is but a more animated and an audible thinking. All my confidence is bestowed on him, all his confidence is devoted to me; we are precisely suited in character--perfect concord is the result. Mr. Rochester continued blind the first two years of our union; perhaps it was that circumstance that drew us so very near--that knit us so very close: for I was then his vision, as I am still his right hand. Literally, I was (what he often called me) the apple of his eye. He saw nature--he saw books through me; and never did I weary of gazing for his behalf, and of putting into words the effect of field, tree, town, river, cloud, sunbeam--of the landscape before us; of the weather round us--and impressing by sound on his ear what light could no longer stamp on his eye. Never did I weary of reading to him; never did I weary of conducting him where he wished to go: of doing for him what he wished to be done. And there was a pleasure in my services, most full, most exquisite, even though sad- -because he claimed these services without painful shame or damping humiliation. He loved me so truly, that he knew no reluctance in profiting by my attendance: he felt I loved him so fondly, that to yield that attendance was to indulge my sweetest wishes. (chap 38) THE END bye:-), Miss Eyre bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 8, "subject": "What IS it about those Bronte heroes...?", "response_count": 47, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 16, 1997 (11:33)", "body": "Thank you Lola! For me, the appeal of Rochester (and Heathcliff, to some degree) is their high Byronic nature -- these are men unafraid to express their passions; unafraid of convention & past sins; and willing to devote themselves 110% to the women they love. They are also literate, poetic, sensitive -- really the ideal poetic hero. Tho I dearly love Mr. Darcy of Austen's P&P, I think you could say the difference is that while Darcy agonizes for several months without expressing his feelings to Lizzy, omeone like Rochester would have simply grabbed her and blurted it all out."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sun, Jul 20, 1997 (18:41)", "body": "Oh yes, Rochester has nooo problems about grabbing what he wants...;-) I agree with you, Amy, what I find so appealing about Rochester is the way he feels about Jane and how he goes out of his way to win her heart (although her heart was his from the start). The way he talks about her character, as if he had grown to know everything about her, I find that very attractive and also when he confesses to having watched her while she was with Ad\ufffdle. I mean, you can tell that not one minute goes by without him hinking about her and wanting to hold her, protect her. Isn`t that amazing love?! And, of course, Rochester is a manly, impetuous, dashing character. The (almost) perfect romantic hero. Besides being intelligent, which I find great as well. I haven`t read Wuthering Heights, so I can\ufffdt say much on Heathcliff."}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Jul 20, 1997 (20:25)", "body": "It's interesting to note the incredible differences between the two romantic heroes, Darcy & Rochester. The former barely even _speaks_ his actual feelings until that first proposal scene, then retreats for months to experience silent agony. Rochester, on the other hand, isn't afraid to voice his feelings for Jane, & continues to do so even after the humiliating episode of the near-marriage. I think that Rochester has a more modern sensibility, in that he SAYS what he feels, rather than exercising all t at Austenish restraint. This hero personally appeals to me more because he isn't such an enigma -- you always know where you stand with him. Healthcliff is a bit more brutal, but his intense love of Catherine Earnshaw is right up there!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (09:30)", "body": "After all those Austen books I read (and liked, most of them), I found it lovely to read Jane Eyre, where the hero is blunt and honest. I must confess, I find it much more attractive. I liked Darcy, but it\ufffds really hard to compare them both, cause they are given a character in such different ways."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "I think the two heroes reflect the differing sensibilities of the authors. Jane Austen seemed to put a great premium on restraint & proper social conduct, whereas Charlotte was a much more passionate creature who couldn't hold it all in. I was just re-watching the Tim Dalton v. of JE last night (a birthday present from my sister!) and boy! -- some of that language. It really is sheer poetry, especially when he is talking about, \"fresh sweet pleasure...as sweet as the honey the bee gathers from the moor \" (bad paraphrase, sorry). What I love about the Brontes is their ability to incorporate lush poetic language into prose."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (13:08)", "body": "\"Jane, you strange, almost unearthly thing\"-that MUST be my absolute favourite line. It shows Rochester\ufffds protectiveness towards her and also his confusion over the effect she has on him. I also love when he keeps calling her changeling and fairy, etc. I find it so sweet. ;-)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (20:09)", "body": "That is a great touch; and how she's waiting for \"the men in green\" before she \"bewitches his horse.\" Now the scene in the TD adaptation after Jane saves him from fire, and he won't let go of her hand. Baby! You can keep your Mr. Darcy!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "panache", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (22:40)", "body": "Just in from Austenville by laptop carriage! Here's my IdyllWild, if you take my meaning, Amy2 and Luisa. ;-) Let me just pull up one of those rustic chairs to sit upon and get down to Yorkshire business... From Herriot to Brontes, I love the downs and the moors and the earthy men and women living there! True, the London Season with its arts and allurements does appeal to me at times, but my heart belongs in those wide/wild open spaces. (sorry to have to say all that, but I feel like I REALLY shift gears when I come here) Listen, about these men: before I ever read Austen in my teens, I'd read the B-sisters and loved their male leads like a first crush, I guess. As the years and books went by, I read many a more polished piece but never ones that shook me to my soul the way JANE EYRE, WUTHERING HEIGHTS, & VILETTE did. Same with the guys I dated: some like Austen types were well attired, etc., but the best one or two inevitably had the real substance of a Rochester, etc. A man's gotta have total love/passion or t won't last, through all the storms that life kicks at couples. Talk about last- look at Edward, Heathcliff, and Hareton- all 3 waded through guff from their girls/women but stayed in for \"the long haul\" anyway. -SIGH- Back here later; love, Cecily"}, {"response": 9, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (23:44)", "body": "Cecily, _thrilled_ to have you! Sounds like you're one of the True Faithful! Yes, all that Austenish refinement & repression is OK for a time, but I've got to have an occasional dose of Bronte passion mixed in to get the full effect of the cocktail! There is something so stirring in Rochester & Heathcliff's speeches to their beloveds that absolutely makes my hair stand on end... What Austen hid behind veils, Charlotte put squarely on the table. She risked the wrath of a highly repressed society by doing so, but she couldn't help it -- the passion was there, and she had to let it out. Hope to see you here at virtual Haworth frequently, Cecily!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "panache", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (00:26)", "body": "Amy: good ideas are in this essay also- http://www.albion.edu/Fac/engl/diedrick/jeyre.htm"}, {"response": 11, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Jul 22, 1997 (11:31)", "body": "Thanks! I just bookmarked -- that looks very interesting. I just finished a good bio, Rebecca Fraser's THE BRONTES - CHARLOTTE AND HER FAMILY."}, {"response": 12, "author": "breezin", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (10:40)", "body": "What I note and like about the Bronte heroes is their \"darkness\"; they have the wildness of a gypsy, the smoldering looks, and the explosiveness of speech and emotions. Dorothy Van Ghent did a great critique of WH once that talked about the \"light\" vs. the \"dark\" people and how they intertwined (or failed to). Not at all the \"milquetoast\" sort of guy, the Bronte man!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (11:36)", "body": "You can say that again, Lola! That sounds like an interesting critique -- where can that be found? Thanks!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Yeago", "date": "Wed, Jul 23, 1997 (22:58)", "body": "Gosh I really really really hate to say this but... I didn't like WH am I banned? Do I have to reread it? was I too young, too inexperenced? I suppose it was a very brutal novel, almost heartless in a way. I have to admit, I feel like the only person who has read Bronte, Austen, Dickens that has not like WH..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Jul 24, 1997 (00:27)", "body": "Anne: believe me, this Board is about tolerance. Everyone's opinion will be respected, I earnestly hope & desire... I'm not that gaga over WH either, truth be known. I appreciate its raw power &intensity, but all that inter-generational stuff kind of leaves me cold after Cathy dies. I guess I'm just a sucker for the love story, and once she's gone, it's more or less over for me. Not the most astute literary opinion in the world, but I'm being honest here...."}, {"response": 16, "author": "hummie", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (18:52)", "body": "i think what i liked about heathcliff the first time i read about him, was that he was not accepting of his misfortune. and he had a passionate nature that he did not easily reveal."}, {"response": 17, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 25, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "What about his cruelty & lust for vengeance? It seems to me he's quite cruel to Catherine after she marries Linton -- he really is horrible to Isabella, marrying her for spite instead of love. I do love him as a romantic hero, though; begging Cathy's ghost to haunt him. This is someone who would turn down Heaven in favor of love..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Jul 26, 1997 (08:00)", "body": "I haven\ufffdt read the book, I did see the movie version with Ralph Fiennes (I didn`t like it). On a very superficial judgement, Heathcliff seemed to me, like you said, Amy, cruel and vindictive, though usually, when the story is about undying and against-all-odds love, the lovers are never really worried about others` feelings. That`s one of the things that`s always bothered me, I\ufffdm afraid. But I am definitely willing to read Wuthering Heights and get some new insight."}, {"response": 19, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Jul 27, 1997 (14:25)", "body": "Luisa, I'd like to re-read it again too. I belong to a Bronte Listserver, and the people there have raised some really intelligent points about the book which have raised my interest. I'd LOVE to see that version with Ralph Fiennes -- is it out on video? Thanks."}, {"response": 20, "author": "hummie", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (17:44)", "body": "there's a great essay on wuthering heights by georges bataille in a book called Literature and Evil. in that essay, bataille suggests that the reason for heathcliff's cruelty towards catherine is rooted in his awareness that she was distancing herself from their relationship on account of her aspirations to a middle class social station, which it appeared to her that heathcliff could not provide. you will see some evidence for that line of reasoning in the book, in the parts where heathcliff attempts to create a middle class identity for himself, and uses, to some extent, isabella linton's feelings for him to achieve that. it is a line of reasoning that suggests that in its own way, wuthering heights anticipates the \"breakdown of social class\" theme that d.h. lawrence spoke to so nicely in lady chatterley's lover."}, {"response": 21, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (18:14)", "body": "That is a very interesting theory. This is kind of a strange comparison, but in some ways, Heathcliff reminds me of Jay Gatsby in the way that both men \"remade\" themselves through wealth. Unfortunately, Gatsy ended up dead in his swimming pool, & Heathcliff suffers a kind of spiritual death as long as he's alive without Catherine."}, {"response": 22, "author": "panache", "date": "Fri, Aug  1, 1997 (23:17)", "body": "Reading Wuthering Heights will give you a much more complete and likely sympathetic understanding of Heathcliff and others. As in all films, no matter how great the cast and director, it is never the same extent of inside information we can cull when reading. What I love about all the Bronte novels is the ruminative thought and speech of the main characters and often minor ones as well. In the text, the nearly mythic and mystic level of the exchange between Catherine and Heathcliff is ntense , especially when Heathcliff grapples with her more and more constant \"presence\" (truly ghostly near the end when he cannot eat, etc.). And the description of Heathcliff's \"risus sardonicus\" fixed victoriously on his dead face the moment he could finally \"go to the other side\" where she waited is not morbid but a relief to the reader (who's witnessed his/her struggles. Jane Eyre is a sweeter love story, yes, but then Emily was a far different personality from Charlotte. I cherish both for their differences."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Aug  2, 1997 (15:18)", "body": "Amy, yes, I think Wuthering Heights with Ralph Fiennes is out on video. It has Jeremy Northam in it as well (very minor role) and Juliette Binoche as Cathy. The film was done in 1994, I think."}, {"response": 24, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sun, Aug  3, 1997 (19:33)", "body": "I'll have to look for that. Cecily, I haven't read WH for some years, & I am planning to re-read shortly (after VILLETTE & SHIRLEY). I've been reviewing some of Emily's poetry -- she truly was amazing. It just blows my mind that someone as mediocre as Elizabeth Barrett Browning was getting all the accolades during the Victorian era, and here was arguably the greatest woman poet in the history of the English language, totally ignored (THE POEMS OF ACTOR, CURRER, & ELLIS BELL sold all of 2 ccs). Your comments do make me want to re-read WH, though, so I can try to view it through Victorian eyes & determine what all the fuss was about."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Aug  5, 1997 (14:01)", "body": "I`m thinking of reading Shirley in the near future. I`ve already read Villette and I truly loved it. Jane Eyre is my favourite story, but Villette comes pretty close. Anyone read Shirley? What about Agnes Grey by Anne Bronte? Is it good?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug  5, 1997 (15:22)", "body": "YES! AGNES GREY is great. It's kind of deceptive -- at first, you think that Agnes might be kind of Fanny Pricelike in her piety, but then you start to hear Anne's satiric voice emerge. It's really a very gentle love story, in its way (maybe not compared to Jane Austen but certainly compared to WH). Definitely worth reading, as is TENANT OF WILDFELL HALL."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Tue, Aug  5, 1997 (18:23)", "body": "I\ufffdve read Tenant Of Wildfell Hall-I read it at the same time I saw the series. It is very dark and tragic. You can`t wait for Helen to get away from that horrible house and that drunkard of a husband. It was a good read. I\ufffdm still waiting for a Bronte novel that I DON\ufffdT like... ;-) They`re all terrific!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "hummie", "date": "Tue, Aug  5, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "this is ralph fiennes as heathcliff? pre english patient? that is most interesting. emily bronte's poetry is tremendous, and suggests an experience of passion that one doesn't usually connect with maidenladies lost in northern england. i wonder who she was in love with?"}, {"response": 29, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug  5, 1997 (20:47)", "body": "I get the impression that Emily wasn't in love with anything earthly. She seemed to have a mystical connection with Nature/the Divine that comes through in her poems."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Thu, Aug  7, 1997 (13:25)", "body": "Ralph Fiennes plays Heathcliff, yes. For me it was a bleak and disappointing performance and I didn`t much care for Juliette Binoche as Cathy either. She had just this faint trace of a French accent that didn`t quite sound right. I was always waiting for her to slip... ;-)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "amy2", "date": "Thu, Aug  7, 1997 (15:10)", "body": "Luisa, that's too bad, because I dearly love both actors. Fiennes seems a little old for Heathcliff though (in his younger days) -- was this a recent production? Re; Accents. That was al;so my problem with Charlotte Gainsborough in JE -- she was so obviously French, and Jane is so obviously _English._ Can't they find any good English actresses? How about Jennifer Ehle, or is she too pretty for Jane?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Luisa", "date": "Sat, Aug  9, 1997 (13:35)", "body": "Well, Amy, I adore Jennifer Ehle (ever since I saw Pride), but, IMO, she has this wholesomeness about her that wouldn`t be quite right for Jane. When I think of Jennifer, I think of Pride and of Camomile Lawn. She looked very attractive in both productions--in no way plain. ;-) But I\ufffdm sure there are all these young actresses, looking for a chance, that would make great Janes. And, of course, I think the actress playing Jane should be 100% English. I didn`t like Charlotte Gainsbourg at all-I couldn`t warm to her and her accent, well, let`s just say, that I felt a bit uncomfortable when she had big speeches. The Wuthering Heights thing is from the year 1994, so it\ufffds fairly recent."}, {"response": 33, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Aug  9, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "I MUST find this somewhere! There's a videostore down the street which stocks 25,000 titles, so maybe it's lying somewhere on a shelf. If not, I may just have to order!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Mon, Aug 25, 1997 (22:46)", "body": "Since the publication of WH, critics have been at a loss as to how to interpret Heathcliff. The initial responses were confused - as many have been since. Some have merely dismissed Heathcliff as brutal and unredeemed. Some have suggested the remorseless bitterness of the character is redeemed by his transcendental love for Cathy. I have have read fascinating essays where it has been argued that he is an agrarian communist, others in which he is held to be a classic example of the emerging industrial capitalist, inspired by Emily's observations of the effects of the industrial revolution (both are a bit of a reach, but have some validity). I've always been rather taken by the \"storm and calm\" model,i.e. like is attracted to like, and it's when the natural union of Cathy and Heathcliffe is thwarted that the storm spills over into destructiveness. Of course, this doesn't take into account the fact that Healthcliffe is an \"out and outer\" from the beginning. \"Elemental\" is the word that comes to mind with WH - that and \"passion\" and \"powerful\", and it seems to sum him up. And then he commits petty acts of vindictiveness! No, there's never anything simple about WH."}, {"response": 35, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (11:24)", "body": "I like your take on Heathcliff, Elena. He does seem as elemental as Nature in many respects. I can't think of a more powerful novel in the English language, either. Emily was a rarity -- she was as strong in prose as she was in poetry. Isn't it bizarre to think that E. Barrett Browning, whom most critics dismiss today, was the Rage of London, whereas here was arguably the world's greatest woman poet, almost completely ignored..."}, {"response": 36, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (14:19)", "body": "Oh, I was going to refrain from posting here but I just can't! EBB's life story is one of my favorite real romances, and while I love Emily Bronte's poems, I have to stick up for her a bit. While some of her poetry (and certainly the \"popular\" items of her day) isn't admired today, I've always found it lovely. And Browning was defending her in her own time from critics who didn't admire her work -- see his poem, \"My Star\" for his defense and a romantic thrill (oh to be loved by a poet). And to respond to a much earlier posting by someone who didn't like the multi-generational aspects of WH, a critic I read suggested that EB was writing a story of origins -- how civilization rises and falls, how nature will triump for a while and then be beaten back again. That explains some of the repetitive names, too. And makes me endure it more, since I've always been a \"get to the point of the story\" person, at least the first time through any book."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (19:57)", "body": "It's great to see Emily's poetry getting the appreciation it deserves - most people who read it seem to concur with Charlotte's assesment of its worth. I have an anthology of Victorian poetry somewhere that has an excellent introduction centering around the idea that the Victorians were an \"orphaned\" generation of poets. Unlike other eras, the Victorians were denied the opportunity of a dialogue with their \"parent\" generation, the Romantics. They were also denied the opportunity of having the Romantics' later views on their early work. This was because so many of them - Byron, Keats, Shelly and so on died young. Interestingly, the writer deliberatly extended this to include Emily. While I wouldn't be quite comfortable in placing Emily in either the Romantics or Victorians exclusively, it was superb to see Emily placed in the forefront of that age of poetry - and the tremendous loss to poetry due to her early death duly noted."}, {"response": 38, "author": "amy2", "date": "Tue, Aug 26, 1997 (20:50)", "body": "Yes!!! Poetry in the Victorian age simply didn't sell well -- even Wordsworth couldn't get a book published, if you can believe that. And THE POEMS OF CURRER, ELLIS & ACTOR BELL famously sold just 2 ccs. in its first run. It seemed it was much more the Age of the Novel, when that form came into its maturity, and boy, did it ever! As far as EBB -- I guess I'm holding a grudge since she called Charlotte \"a savage freethinker.\" I have to confess, I like Robert Browning's poems better!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Rochelle", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (03:08)", "body": "I'd sort of take being called \"a savage freethinker\" a compliment - which just goes to show how attitudes have changed! It almost has an Emily ring to it."}, {"response": 40, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (11:37)", "body": "I would have thought that EBB might be more sympathetic to the Brontes, since she too suffered from an overbearing father who opposed her marriage, etc. But she still led more of a \"conventional\" life on Wimpole Street, I guess (if you can discount that long, long (???) psychosomatic illness)..."}, {"response": 41, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (15:32)", "body": "Speaking of psychosomatic illnesses, how about my pet theory that Charlotte's death was more related to what having a child would do to her free time and ability to create than to any phsyical problems? I know she was a small person and that many women died of childbirth complications, but when you think about her reaction to children when teaching them, I can't believe she was terribly happy about having her own. And I think I read that she had severe morning-sickness, which can be seen as an attempt to expel the child. Maybe someone who's read more about her life can tell me if I'm way off base?"}, {"response": 42, "author": "amy2", "date": "Wed, Aug 27, 1997 (18:55)", "body": "Lorie -- The theory that Charlotte hysterically rejected the fetus was in vogue for a long time. But most modern doctors agree that Charlotte's main symptom -- extreme vomiting (sometimes of blood) all day & night -- doesn't happen during pregnancy. So the cause of her death is a real mystery. One biographer had a good point though -- Tabby died right before Charlotte - of an infection of the digestive tract. Did she transmit the disease to Charlotte? We'll never know, esp. since the cause of death i listed as \"consumption.\""}, {"response": 43, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Fri, Aug 29, 1997 (10:14)", "body": "Thanks! I obviously haven't read far enough in any of her biographies (actually, the ones I've read concentrate on the four children and didn't get into Charlotte's later life much). I wonder if Tabby's infection is the real cause of death among the whole family? Perhaps they were being poisoned by something in the environment of the parsonage, not consumption at all."}, {"response": 44, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Aug 29, 1997 (11:30)", "body": "Tabby didn't really get sick until right before Charlotte. But the general sanitary conditions in Haworth were terrible - the average lifespan was 25!! Water was being contaminated from the privies & even the graveyard. And of course so many deadly diseases of the 19th c., like T.B., cholera, & typhus went unchecked. The state of medicine was pretty apalling. We have a lot to be thankful for today!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, Dec 26, 1997 (10:09)", "body": "I've just read through this topic, and would quickly like to take discussions back to Emily's Heathcliff. I have just read another very interesting work, an epic, nothing to do with the Bront\ufffds, but, though it is much more primitive, it somehow helped me understand Emily's 'heroes', Heathcliff and Linton, a bit better. The work is african in origin (as am I!), was written in the late 1930's, and is called 'Raka'. Here, a quick summary of the story: It is about a small tribe somewhere in the heart of Africa. For years they have lived in peace near a beautiful pond with crystal clear water, the men hunting for food, the women looking after the children, the evenings spent around a large fire, where they would dance and sing and tell stories - thereby keeping Culture, for them the highest form of civilisation, alive. They are presented to the reader as a group of people who have achieved moral and social perfection. Responsible for it, is the leader of the tribe, Koki. Then one day, as the women are bathing in the pond, they notice a dark figure on the other side, a figure possessing great beauty, but at once that of man and animal. The women find themselves sexually attracted to him, they run away, laughing, and at night he plagues them in their dreams. Next he appears where the children are at play, making little animals and other objects from the clay by the pond. The half-man makes a figure so much bigger and better than theirs, that they instantly come to admire and talk about him. Lastly he appears where the men are hunting. Again, he hunts so much better than they do, that they can't help but stand in awe of his great skills. And so he infiltrates the minds and activities of the once so peaceful tribe. They end up quarrelling and pulling away from one another. It comes to a point where Koki has to prove himself worthy of being their leader by fighting Raka. Raka wins and destroys their homes, rapes the women and kills many men and children. Basically it is a story about the cycle of life - the rise and decline of the human spirit, or nations. I was strongly reminded of Heathcliff by the half man, half beast, Raka, while the protagonist, Koki, reminded me of Linton who was defeated by Heathcliff. Were there any heroes in WH, I think Linton was perhaps more likely to be it. For, even though he is physically the weaker man, he possesses the Goodness we expect of a hero, while Heathcliff is the antagonist. Raka, because the message was so much straight-forward, and therefore more suitable for my little brain!, made me understand that Wuthering Heights carries a much more universal message than the shallow 'some are by nature evil'-message that I had previously read into it. It is about a happy, content family who has reached the 'top' of the cycle where they live in harmony at Wuthering Heights. The father then allows himself to take home 'something he doesn't know', Heathcliff. In doing so, the peace of the family is slowly dissolved until nothing more is left. We all know how Catherine is fascinated by him, but marries Linton, how this learned 'Raka', despite his new education comes back to destroy also their peace, how it reaches the low point where Catherine's daughter is captured and forced to marry Heathcliff's evil son, but then also how slowly, the circle continues to be drawn, how the name 'Catherine' changes from Catherine Earnshaw, to Catherine Linton, from Linton to Catherine Heathcliff (where the story reaches an absolute low-point), but then rises to change back to the original name, Catherine Earnshaw, and so completing the circle, and ending with the promise of happiness - but also a hidden promise that another 'Heathcliff'-element (be it circumstances or people) will in time return to the family. Because Emily had such a strange twist of mind, I think one should always try to look beyond what she writes, just as she was able to look beyond where most other people were able to see. It also explained to me why I found the Tenant of WH, pleasant, but some- how weak. Anne intended it as an answer to Wuthering Heights, but because she didn't possess the same way of thinking as Emily (which is not necessarily bad!), she missed the point somehow. Her character, and her heroes are very literal, where as Emily's characters are mere symbols of other things. In that sense Jane Eyre is much more simple and pleasant to read. One can just read and enjoy it as it is. Rochester is a hunk, and represents a hunk; Jane is plain, and represents any woman with brains and the capacity to love."}, {"response": 46, "author": "HopeW", "date": "Mon, Jun 14, 1999 (14:42)", "body": "A lot of people might disagree with this but I think that Catherine was really more of a bad person than Heathcliff. She set out to munipulate people by bringing on the illness that she eventually died of. She got ill as a kind of atention thing, just thinking about how sad Edgar and Heathcliff would be if she really died and not thinking about the death part of dieing. She even told Heathcliff at their last meeting it was his fault she was going to die, this was one of the main factors in him getting s messed up. Catherine was able to plan her ideas before she carried them out while Heathcliff was driven by pure passion. Another idea is that after Catherine died Heathcliff was not only getting revenge on the people he blamed for her death (the Lintons) but he was also getting revenge on Caterine by being horrible to some of the people who she had liked. One more idea is that Heathcliff as a boy had been so starved of kindness that when he recieved it when he was older he did not accept or trust it."}, {"response": 47, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (11:08)", "body": "I defenitely agree that Catherine was bad; with her it was just more refined, more subtle than with Heathcliff. And perhaps what Emily was trying to demonstrate as well, was that how people turn out isn't necessarily the result of their upbringing. We would expect Heathcliff to be dysfunctional in some way or other, because he was starved of kindness as a child. Yet Catherine, having been raised in a privileged position, turned out no better than he did. What brought them together was perhaps this mu ual recognition which surpassed the material world around them, and took no note of their opposite circumstances. bronte conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 80, "subject": "Jane Eyre - Amusing Scenes", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 81, "subject": "Jane Eyre - Sad Moments", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 82, "subject": "Jane Eyre - Moments of Rage", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 83, "subject": "Is Jane Eyre a masochist?", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 84, "subject": "Jealousy in Jane Eyre", "response_count": 0, "posts": []}, {"num": 9, "subject": "What wonderful timing ...", "response_count": 6, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "amy2", "date": "Fri, Jul 18, 1997 (18:37)", "body": "JoAnn, you are in for a treat! Just to let you know, there's going to be a new A&E version of JE airing I believe this November in the U.S. starring Ciaran Hinds (of PERSUASION & IVANHOE) as Rochester. Should be a great production!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jul 19, 1997 (13:59)", "body": "That's good news, eh, Amy?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "amy2", "date": "Sat, Jul 19, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "Yeah, that's great news! I think it will not only bring a lot more people to this site, but will also give us another great version of JE -- I downloaded a Quicktime trailer clip, and Hinds seems amazing -- Morton also has the right look & attitude for Jane. I can't wait for this thing to air!!!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "panache", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (21:46)", "body": "I can't either! Actualy, I've liked every darn version I've ever seen of JANE EYRE, from Orson Welles to George C. Scott to Timothy Dalton. (well, Dalton is watchable in anything :) ) And Hinds was good in PERSUASION so here we go again...I'll tape it for my child whose an Austenaholic; it's time to wean her to the \"steeper [deeper] stuff\"..."}, {"response": 5, "author": "amy2", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (22:48)", "body": "You go, Cecily! Deeper emotionally -- I agree with you there. There's a chance we might be able to see the Hinds version sooner rather than later... Let me say enigmatically: remember my duplicating exercise on Pemberley? Well,I might be able to exercise my facility -- I mean faculties -- again. Stay tuned..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "panache", "date": "Mon, Jul 21, 1997 (23:29)", "body": "terrific! bronte conference Main Menu"}]}]}