{"conf": "philosophy", "generated_at": "2026-04-26T08:00:02.954878Z", "threads": [{"num": 1, "subject": "Introduce yourselves please", "response_count": 153, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Nov  9, 1997 (20:20)", "body": "Hello--anybody home? I can use some philosophy in my life! Lay it on me."}, {"response": 2, "author": "donnal", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (08:26)", "body": "Hi. I'm no philosopher, at least not by any credentials, but perhaps in spirit. I'm looking forward to participating here at whatever level I am able. Let me start with a quote from Alfred North Whitehead. In the preface to _Modes of Thought_ he stated something like: > Philosophical truth is to be sought in the presuppositions of language, > not in its express statements. I'll look it up tonight to check the exact wording."}, {"response": 3, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (10:31)", "body": "Good to be here. I will check in everyday -- unless I am totally swapped by non-philosophical matters. There was a period of almost ten years in my life where I did _Philosophers Forums_ in San Francisco Bay Area coffee houses. I facilitated discussion in what my teacher (Jacob Needleman) called \"The Great Ideas\" -- you know, those ideas. Things like wisdom, life, death, freedom and determinism, can we know anything?, etc., etc. I was never too interested in what other people thought as much as working OURSELVES here and now with these great ideas. So I felt that Socrates was the best model for this kind of activity. Non-academic, right here, on the street, kind of philosphy. All that is required is that we be lovers of wisdom. (But I am putting too many words here in the Intro topic. I will post \"Americ's Philosophy\" into a separate topic, to free you from reading this.)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (10:39)", "body": "I don't need MORE philosophy in my life but I'd love a forum with which to discuss the frequently jumbled mass of ideas already floating around in there! Today the most phiosophical statement I can think of is one by Franz Kafka stating, \"The true way goes over a rope which is not stretched at any great height but just above the ground. It seems more designed to make people stumble than to be walked upon.\""}, {"response": 5, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "Welcome, Stacey. I agree with you, I don't think I need MORE philosophy, but , perhaps, the kind of process to allows me to have LESS chatter in my head."}, {"response": 7, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (12:25)", "body": "As we well know... *grin*"}, {"response": 8, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "sometimes, I sit here....waiting....waiting for the quiet sound of silance to come and it never does except for a second or two. :)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "flowerchild", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (23:02)", "body": "be happy that you get it for a second or two because some people never get any their lives are a real jumble of mazes"}, {"response": 10, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (23:08)", "body": "Hello, I am Yeshe Azevedo. Philosophy is quite intriguing, and the thoughts of a person can and will always change. Untill we find total contentment with ourselves and others. No need to preach about it. When we are in the total state of enlightment words are not needed......."}, {"response": 11, "author": "flowerchild", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (23:13)", "body": "just watching and learning people is unique in it's own right and maybe words someday will not be needed but thank the lord that for now they are because i for one like talking to others and studying their words and actions"}, {"response": 13, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (09:52)", "body": "Glad you all are joining us!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (11:30)", "body": "Talking with others is a good way to learn about yourself.. what you still judge and do not judge in life."}, {"response": 15, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (12:05)", "body": "I think of talking as a way in which we sing to one another. When birds talk to each we call it singing. I am sure that if some other species heard us talking, it would sound like singing to them."}, {"response": 16, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "Talking is a great way to express one self. A question to ponder. Do we need that form of communication when we are in the bright? Is that communication which then when in the bright needed for are own benefit or for others own benefit?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (14:25)", "body": "A new topic is made \"Talk or not to talk\", check it out! And we can continue this very interesting discussion."}, {"response": 20, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (12:56)", "body": "thought I'd wander on in"}, {"response": 22, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "Just a wanderin'"}, {"response": 23, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (13:25)", "body": "welcome"}, {"response": 24, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (18:29)", "body": "hello"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (13:00)", "body": "make a new topic?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (18:11)", "body": "A couch, eh? *grin*"}, {"response": 29, "author": "glennam", "date": "Sat, Dec 20, 1997 (22:02)", "body": "Hi friend Americ suggested I check this out. Interested in self healing and learning what is not love."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (11:17)", "body": "welcome Glenn, lemme warn you, probably won't find the answers you seek, but you'll have lots of fun looking!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (12:34)", "body": "Welcome Glenn!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (15:30)", "body": "Great to have you here! Glenn. Glenn and I, by the way, created the first \"Philosophers Forum\" at the Coffee Mill in Oakland about 18 years ago. So this is kind of a reunion in cyberspace."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (08:22)", "body": "Well hello peoples. Just thought I may be able to find some wisdom on matters of life that matter. Though by no means a philosopher as yet, but trying. Must say excellent idea and I hope I may be able to contribute in a healthy fashion."}, {"response": 36, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (10:06)", "body": "Welcome aboard Sinfear!"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (10:55)", "body": "Hmm, after looking around I seem to think I may be a bit out my league, but proberly my simple ideas may have some insight. A question though how long has this been running now? And thank you for your warm felt greetings."}, {"response": 38, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (12:14)", "body": "Welcome Sinfear!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (12:20)", "body": "thanks, you all seem to be quite the lively bunch"}, {"response": 41, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Jan  3, 1998 (00:44)", "body": "This philosophy conference is by no means an academic philosphy conference. It is a place to develop and explore your own philosophy. Sometimes it is fun to refer to some of the well known writers, but really YOU are the best person to get in touch with wisdom. Wisdom is only yours if you work on it yourself."}, {"response": 42, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jan  5, 1998 (10:05)", "body": "amen! Over the holidays I feel like I lost my grip on some of the wisdom I'd acquired. So... here I go again!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jan  7, 1998 (21:30)", "body": "nice thoughts...."}, {"response": 46, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (17:21)", "body": "gratifying, soothing, thank you..."}, {"response": 48, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (20:30)", "body": "Ahh.... 6pm, sitting solitary in my gloriously quiet classroom. The last few days have been rather difficult. The children spent 2 weeks at \"home\" in unsavory and unstructured environments. We've had issues. Today was smooth. And we all enjoyed the benefits of a low stress day. I'm still at work, for a meeting at 7pm tonight, but I'm really not minding the long day. I've been incommunicato simply because, as you surely have guessed, when the classroom is in turmoil... no one rests. I've got my VERY hot mug of Echinecea (sp?) tea and now, my keyboard."}, {"response": 50, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (21:02)", "body": "is that tomorrow? Is your mom in Austin?"}, {"response": 52, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (21:09)", "body": "a sudden operation I assume. Heart attack?"}, {"response": 54, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (18:04)", "body": "and good luck to you!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan 15, 1998 (17:33)", "body": "everything went well?!?!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "hwxc", "date": "Thu, Jan 15, 1998 (23:02)", "body": "i need a new girlfriend"}, {"response": 59, "author": "hwxc", "date": "Thu, Jan 15, 1998 (23:07)", "body": "I thank you"}, {"response": 60, "author": "hwxc", "date": "Thu, Jan 15, 1998 (23:11)", "body": "thank you whereyou come form?"}, {"response": 61, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "I think this one's for you, stacey..."}, {"response": 63, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (13:46)", "body": "Awww, you gettin' jealous, wer?"}, {"response": 65, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sat, Jan 17, 1998 (09:17)", "body": "Hi hwxc2-what can we call you for short? You have certainly come to the right place to vent!! Wer, you're too easy to read *grin*"}, {"response": 66, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (16:53)", "body": "lookit me! Typing from home! Finally got the PC working again! HWX... why do you need a NEW girlfriend? Did the old one go away or are you just weary of her? And... since we're being 'philosophical' -- why d'ya need a girlfriend at all? Physical reasons? Emotional? Intellectual? Asthetic? just curious. And Autumn, I'm glad someones around to give WER a hard time when I'm out o' pocket! *smile*"}, {"response": 67, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:04)", "body": "Yeah, I'm trying to get one of those love triangle things going between you three, but hwx isn't biting."}, {"response": 69, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:21)", "body": "LOL!! You've really scared him away now!"}, {"response": 71, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:48)", "body": "I can take it--I have pretty thick skin!"}, {"response": 72, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jan 20, 1998 (21:04)", "body": "LOL!!"}, {"response": 73, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Jan 21, 1998 (09:28)", "body": "Hello, again. I am back."}, {"response": 75, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "We thought we drove you away with all our sidetracked babble!"}, {"response": 76, "author": "farid", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "I would like to introduce myself. My name is Faridah Othman. I'm currently taking the CIS 394K class. I'm not a philosopher. See you again"}, {"response": 77, "author": "pandikar", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "eRR...scuse me Faridah,but whats CIS?and where are u from?"}, {"response": 78, "author": "farid", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "Hai Azman, I'm from Malaysia. Where are you now. CIS is computer information system. Tell me about yourself. I'm now at GGU."}, {"response": 79, "author": "MikeB", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "I am from CIS too. And I am studying with Americ. I like GGU and San Francisco."}, {"response": 80, "author": "yaniwu", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "Hi, My major in CIS. I come from Taipei. This is my first CIS semester in GGU. I don't have any background in this field. I hope I can learn more and more. I like this class very much. It gives me a lot of fun in class. My name is Yani. I forgot to tell you. Happy Chinese New Year."}, {"response": 81, "author": "fuyutseng", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "Hi,everyone: This is Fu-Yu Tseng. My friends always call me Felix which is the name I use here. I am a student of Golden Gate University. I hope I can make a lot of friends here. Talk to you later."}, {"response": 82, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "Hi ya'll and welcome!"}, {"response": 83, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "It's great to see so many new users. Feel free to fan out to the other conferences that interest you."}, {"response": 84, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Jan 27, 1998 (21:57)", "body": "Wow, what a rush! So many new folks. Welcome everyone!"}, {"response": 85, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jan 28, 1998 (08:55)", "body": "Hello everyone! Welcome new friends!"}, {"response": 86, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Wed, Jan 28, 1998 (14:57)", "body": "Hello to all the lovely new students. Some great reading in these conferences, hope you all enjoy it. And we look forward to new viewpoints from all of you, coming from so many different backgrounds. Welcome!"}, {"response": 88, "author": "pandikar", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (02:27)", "body": "Forgive me for being so blunt.I am Azman Ismail,new to philosophy conference but frequently in apps conference.Ex marine engineer,now shift engineer in power plant in Sabah.Studied in North east of England.Still new with microsoft and new era applications,new for me anyway.Was orientated with bbc basic,cobol ,pascal and stuffs back in 1988.When first introduced to windows,was dumbfounded..used to type about dozens pages of commands to get things done.Now much easier.Thank You bill gates and the rest."}, {"response": 89, "author": "bbthai", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (03:09)", "body": "Hi ! Everybody. My name is Chatchai. I am studying at Golden Gate University. Just check in. Hope to have something to share with you later. I don't know much about philosophy. Do you think there are any difference in philosophy for each country? By the way, please forgive my grammar and spelling if sometimes it goes wrong."}, {"response": 90, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (03:09)", "body": "I think there is great differences between countries philosophies as there are great differences in the philosophies of one country when viewed through many perspectives."}, {"response": 91, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (03:09)", "body": "Welcome Asman and Chatchai!"}, {"response": 92, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (03:09)", "body": "And just as philosophy varies from country to country, doesn't it also vary from person to person?"}, {"response": 93, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (03:09)", "body": "guess that was what I was trying to say... thanks for making it coherent! Good morning wolf! Good to see you!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (03:09)", "body": "you, too. did you notice that we hyperspaced again? don't we look good?"}, {"response": 96, "author": "bbthai", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (19:12)", "body": "Thanks for comment"}, {"response": 97, "author": "ehsu", "date": "Mon, Feb  2, 1998 (00:09)", "body": "Hi everyone, I am Emma Hsu. This is my first time beening in philosophy conference. I don't know much about philosophy, but I think everyone have their own philosophy, no matter you are male or female. Philosophy just like your personality. What kind of philosophy you believe, what kind of person you are. I'll talk to u later"}, {"response": 98, "author": "sandh", "date": "Mon, Feb  2, 1998 (13:54)", "body": "gonna like this place try some smile-it won't broke your face religion is a static philosophy gaia is angry walk through life doing as little harm and as much good as possible the sun only rises because i am there to see it most of my personal beliefs work for me but many are written in water"}, {"response": 100, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (08:56)", "body": "Welcome eshu and sandh. I'm glad you're connecting up with us. I hope you all elaborate here on your philosophical insights."}, {"response": 101, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Feb 27, 1998 (20:54)", "body": "Is americ still around? I rarely see him posting anywhere, although that's probably because I'm looking in the wrong places :)"}, {"response": 103, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Mar 19, 1998 (18:00)", "body": "where'd Americ and friends go????"}, {"response": 104, "author": "bettma", "date": "Tue, Apr 21, 1998 (19:21)", "body": "he's right in front of me now. I'm sitting in his class. This morning in the class that I teach, an 87 year old student handed me a philosophical poem that she channeled years ago...i wonder if we are open to receiving, if we wouldn't get lots of stories like hers."}, {"response": 105, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Apr 21, 1998 (22:44)", "body": "Wish Americ would come around again!"}, {"response": 106, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Apr 21, 1998 (23:15)", "body": "Where's he been, Terry?"}, {"response": 107, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Apr 22, 1998 (21:44)", "body": "Dunno. it'd be cool if he'd reappear!"}, {"response": 109, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Apr 24, 1998 (09:09)", "body": "and if we promise to keep our hands (and mouths) to ourselves in his topic???"}, {"response": 110, "author": "cfadm", "date": "Wed, Apr 29, 1998 (13:25)", "body": "Ratthing has been installed as cohost of philosophy. Now, he may introduce himself if he likes."}, {"response": 111, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Apr 29, 1998 (14:03)", "body": "thanks, terry. i live in san ano\u007f whoops, i mean san antonio and have had an active interest in philosphy for about 20 years now. my specific areas of interest are philosophy of science, ethics, philosophy of mind, lots of other stuff too. i look forward to conferencing with all of you here!"}, {"response": 113, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Apr 29, 1998 (17:04)", "body": "no joke! welcome, uh, ratthing, ray, whatever you wanna be called *smile*"}, {"response": 114, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Apr 29, 1998 (17:30)", "body": "thanks folks. i've read what has been posted here and i like it. hopefully we can see some more posting of folks discussing their own personal experiences with philosophy, life, etc....."}, {"response": 116, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Apr 29, 1998 (19:47)", "body": "ratthing recognizes raw talent when he sees it!"}, {"response": 117, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Apr 29, 1998 (20:01)", "body": "good one wer! my thoughts exactly *giggle*"}, {"response": 118, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Apr 29, 1998 (21:00)", "body": "You are one brave and intrepid conference host, ratthing...you have to dig thru a lot of innuendo to arrive at one nugget around here..."}, {"response": 120, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Apr 29, 1998 (23:19)", "body": "Do you see what you're going to be dealing with here?????"}, {"response": 121, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Apr 30, 1998 (20:50)", "body": "LOL!!"}, {"response": 122, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, May  1, 1998 (09:08)", "body": "well, hey, philosophy is mental masturbation, right? if this place is extended foreplay, then it's perfect, especially since you won't be doing it alone. ;)"}, {"response": 123, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, May  1, 1998 (18:44)", "body": "oooooo, i like that *grin*"}, {"response": 124, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, May  2, 1998 (15:01)", "body": "Now, let me get this straight, is it going to be mutual or shared? *giggle* Just so you know, I happen to know the difference! (thanks to wer)"}, {"response": 125, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, May  2, 1998 (15:24)", "body": "we be one horny bunch o' philosophers!"}, {"response": 127, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sat, May  2, 1998 (22:58)", "body": "hi wer (and nighty-night!)"}, {"response": 128, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May  5, 1998 (09:07)", "body": "philosophy as mental masturbation... had I known that, my college transcript would've looked MUCH different!"}, {"response": 129, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, May  5, 1998 (22:42)", "body": "lol"}, {"response": 130, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (13:18)", "body": "got a Quotations topic going, so when you feel one coming on... anyway, it allows us the keep them in their place, while keeping them in the conversations... peace! (or at least nurturing chaos!!!)"}, {"response": 131, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (15:21)", "body": "'ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your virtual community' (or something like that."}, {"response": 132, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, May 25, 1998 (18:21)", "body": "Riette's computer is down for this here stuff until, like, the beginning of June...she's going through Spring withdrawal, and can't wait to get back..."}, {"response": 133, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (13:53)", "body": "It's fixed!!! She should be back on sometime today!!!"}, {"response": 134, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (12:41)", "body": "Really? Who told you that? . . ."}, {"response": 135, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (23:59)", "body": "Has anyone other than me noticed we've run another host off in this conference?"}, {"response": 136, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (01:30)", "body": "I sure have. Not only him, but Nick is gone too. And Mike. Was it something we didn't say?"}, {"response": 137, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:43)", "body": "you mean me? no, i am still here, just very busy with Life Itself!"}, {"response": 138, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:45)", "body": "Hey Ray, good to see you again."}, {"response": 139, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:45)", "body": "*sigh o' relief* glad to see you again, Ray!"}, {"response": 140, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:46)", "body": "what in the real world is keeping you too busy to drop by?"}, {"response": 141, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:47)", "body": "lookit us...stace, terry, ray, and me all on at the same time!!! wolf should be back on soon, and maybe nick, also..."}, {"response": 142, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:48)", "body": "it'd be a virtual party!"}, {"response": 143, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:50)", "body": "pahr-tay, pahr-tay, pahr-tay...."}, {"response": 144, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:51)", "body": "working WER?"}, {"response": 145, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:53)", "body": "nope, day off actually..."}, {"response": 146, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:53)", "body": "i started a new job with EDS as a consultant, and i am also doing a lot of volunteer work, as well as helping my fiancee plan our wedding!"}, {"response": 147, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (22:54)", "body": "you're actually helping?!?!? My god! What a man! congrats on the new job!"}, {"response": 148, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (23:00)", "body": "well, helping = being a sounding board most of the time. it's my second marriage, so i have some vague ideas about what i want, not like the first time."}, {"response": 149, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (23:02)", "body": "hopefully on your lift of wants... a marriage that lasts. scary prospect. (sounding boards are extremely necessary!)"}, {"response": 150, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (01:39)", "body": "Nonsense, it isn't scary at all!!! Marriage is great fun!!! Many, many, many congratulations, Ray - have a blast!"}, {"response": 151, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (09:02)", "body": "a marriage that lasts and babies are on my list of wants and hers too!"}, {"response": 152, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (12:25)", "body": "Well, that's great, because they are two rather important things to have in common. When's the big day?"}, {"response": 153, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (13:12)", "body": "as soon as complete the annulment of my first marriage. my fiancee and i want to marry in the catholic church, and the annulment is a necessary pain in the tuckus."}, {"response": 154, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (14:30)", "body": "Rather! But if that's important to you both, it'll be worth the waiting, I'm sure. Oh, I never never want to go through another wedding day again!"}, {"response": 155, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (20:16)", "body": "welcome to our new conf. host - ratthing! i really like the header, btw :) (although it might be nice to have your name as host in there, too :))"}, {"response": 156, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (21:00)", "body": "i was just playing around with some of the conf header stuff for both the web and Unix versions. i'll see if i can get a little more time to add some more stuff."}, {"response": 157, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Mon, Apr 19, 1999 (14:58)", "body": "I would like to invite all visitors of this conference to the International Conflicts conference here on the Spring: http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/InternationalConflicts/all This new conference is dedicated to the disputes between groups all over the world, be that social, cultural, political or ethnical differences."}, {"response": 158, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Jul 12, 1999 (08:51)", "body": "Hello. I'm an armchair philosopher who spends his life uncovering the meaning of concepts like Orenda, and Urim and Thummim, which our culture seems to have overlooked."}, {"response": 159, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jul 12, 1999 (14:54)", "body": "welcome Barry!"}, {"response": 160, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Jul 13, 1999 (02:10)", "body": "think we can bolt another arm onto the couch for him?"}, {"response": 161, "author": "segue", "date": "Thu, Nov  4, 1999 (16:41)", "body": "I took an online course in postmodernist philosophy and now I'm hooked. But I live in Waco, Texas,and look what happened to our last original thinker! So I drive to Dallas to the Philospher's Forum twice a month--from Gadamer, Heiddegger to Ken Wilber and Jimmy Lathrop. I was surprised that there is nothing like this in Austin, except for U.T. students. I'm glad to find out about this website, though."}, {"response": 162, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Nov  4, 1999 (16:52)", "body": "Welcome! It is always good to have fresh insight. We are a multi-interest group here and there are all sorts of conferences around to satisfy almost any curiosity. Feel free to browse and post!"}, {"response": 163, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov  5, 1999 (08:08)", "body": "Really, glad to have someone from Waco on here. Feel free to start topics (in this conference and others) that interest you! What aspects of philosophy are you focused on?"}, {"response": 164, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov  5, 1999 (08:59)", "body": "Hey Segue! Nice to have you here! Does your name mean something significant?"}, {"response": 165, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov  6, 1999 (10:54)", "body": "Is it pronoucned seg 'way?"}, {"response": 166, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Mon, Nov  8, 1999 (15:04)", "body": "....or perhaps, seeeg...?"}, {"response": 167, "author": "segue", "date": "Thu, Nov 18, 1999 (16:25)", "body": "How the hell should I know? It's exactly like the other words I read on the listservs of philosophy departments; nobody actually uses words like this in Waco. My adventures online as Captain of the Transcendental Millenial Falcon vs the Ravenscraft of SouthPaws as well as Ken Wilber's PureLandingGyre have left me wounded, but undaunted, in my neverending Quest to Tai up their Chi. I was in Tokyo last week and this dogon seated next to me in the Ginza leaned over and said, \"I know who you are--Holy Ratdog of God! How did you escape from the Compound when They did away with your first husband?\" It was one of them. Another claims to live on Cesar Chavez, so I am as ever, en garde. Nevertheless, everyone on this list had better get the complete library, even Heidegger for Idiots, because I am being studied for the Internet addiction as well as others which are hohum merely genetic."}, {"response": 168, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Thu, Nov 18, 1999 (16:56)", "body": "Ah, perhaps you should check into the Paranormal Conf with all the others who are being studied... What does your alien surveillance device look like?"}, {"response": 169, "author": "segue", "date": "Mon, Nov 22, 1999 (21:34)", "body": "\"Off to my left I see five mounted cowboys. Off to my right, quite a dozen or more. I caught a good one it looked like it could run.\""}, {"response": 170, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Nov 22, 1999 (23:03)", "body": "Ride 'em cowgirl."}, {"response": 171, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Wed, Dec 29, 1999 (10:39)", "body": "Hoh! Way ta go!"}, {"response": 172, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Dec 29, 1999 (15:49)", "body": "Guess she went that-a-way... Have not seen her since. Musta been some cowboy!"}, {"response": 173, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Dec 30, 1999 (09:34)", "body": "Rode off into the sunset?"}, {"response": 174, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Dec 30, 1999 (20:47)", "body": "I reckon..."}, {"response": 175, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 1999 (09:30)", "body": "Ya reckon?"}, {"response": 176, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Dec 31, 1999 (12:06)", "body": "It figgers...!"}, {"response": 177, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Aug 19, 2002 (20:42)", "body": "philosophy, philosophy i barely knew ye"}, {"response": 178, "author": "cfadm", "date": "Thu, Mar 20, 2003 (13:18)", "body": "What's up these days, Nick?"}, {"response": 179, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Apr 14, 2003 (19:53)", "body": "just haunting all of austin's poetry joints (we're at the hideout right now, putting together a peace anthology, that no one will ever read)... what's up with you? (whomever you may be, conf admin)"}, {"response": 180, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Apr 15, 2003 (09:04)", "body": "Almost made it to the poetry slam at Ego's but I'll have to catch it on reruns, a friend videotaped it."}, {"response": 181, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Apr 15, 2003 (11:43)", "body": "Nick, I thought you lived in Washington state. Am I on crack or has it just been too long??? Hey Paul, we're headed to Texas... 4/27-5/14. Most of the time it'll just be me and the kids and we'll be hanging out in SA but we are headed to Austin for a friend's wedding 5/10. I hate to make plans and break promises but I'll let you know when we head your way!"}, {"response": 182, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Apr 15, 2003 (17:16)", "body": "that's great, we'll have to meet up!"}, {"response": 183, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Apr 30, 2003 (16:57)", "body": "we moved back to austin about a year ago... the west coast didn't agree with me (and yes, it's been too long)... egos is a good venue, but it's slam (defjam) poetry, a very mixed bag... some good performers (like the mc, mike henry, who's an old chicago house guy)... a lot of drivel, though, and the idea of scoring the work is a lttle repulsive... you should try the hideout sometime, as well..."}, {"response": 184, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, May  1, 2003 (08:12)", "body": "Where's the Hideout, refresh my memory ok?"}, {"response": 185, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, May  5, 2003 (19:06)", "body": "near the SE corner of s. congress and seventh st. (next door to wendys, one block south of the paramount) philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 10, "subject": "Selfishness", "response_count": 133, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (05:08)", "body": "What do you mean by selfishness?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (11:49)", "body": "William -- I am glad you are taking the lead on a very important topic. I struggle with this myself. Sometimes my most \"selfish\" positions have been the most helpful to people. And, sometimes my best efforts at \"being helpful and unselfish\" have lead to the worst possible situations. Yeshe, goes right to the point and asks for a definition. I don't know, really. But one could start by saying something like: \"Being selfish is being stuck in the illusion that one is the only being in the universe & not knowing it.\" How about that?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (13:57)", "body": "Once there was a selfish man, who put every penny of profit back into his business. After 20 years, he was a billionaire, providing thousands of jobs to people. Once there was a humanitarian who gave all his money to the poor... then it was gone. The poor called out for more. Often times our 'selfish acts' are not seen in the larger scheme of things. What if your 'selfishness' is helping someone to see that they have an attitude of 'poverty' that they need to recognize and let go of? Are we not all in this together... to show each other where our judgements and guilts lie? Why do we persecute the messenger? Naaahhh.. we should all feel guilty as charged. That's what society dictates, so that's the way we should do it. I'm going home and eat chocolate so I don't have to feel this guilt!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (18:21)", "body": "The examples cited above are subjective, of course...from another point of view, that billionaire can be construed as stealing the labor of thousands of people... Re: the derided philanthropist- do I take the point to be that- the poor being the thankless, insatiable lot they are- the only genuinely valuable giving derives from the self-interest of capitalists? And actually, I think someone in need of a meal or a job, and receiving instead a lecture regarding their \"attitude of poverty\" is entitled, at the least, to regard it as selfishness..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (10:07)", "body": "Point taken. But the point is outside of 'original intent'. Philosophy is all about introducing new ideas, and looking at old concepts from new points of view... Not trading tit for tat with an old hat. Unless of course, if your running for political office? Consider this; Just for a fleeting moment, what if this person has spoken a 'truth'. What an interesting way that the universe works if that were true? One does not need to accept it. The idea is just to look. Otherwise.. we all end up going to war... and poverty does indeed grow."}, {"response": 7, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (12:07)", "body": "There aren't too awfully many new ideas...usually just the same old crap, recycled for mass consumption with a little fresh (albeit cheap) paint... that \"attitude of poverty\" stuff is among the oldest... And if you'll take a look around you, Socrates, you'll see we've always been at war, and poverty indeed continues to grow (no matter how many dead ideas you throw at it)..."}, {"response": 8, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (12:19)", "body": "So your throwing in the towel Nick?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (12:29)", "body": "I think that all the ideas we have ever needed have been around for some time. The problem may be sorting them out, and overcoming the reasons why we won't initiate them. Could be that if someone handed us the perfect 'How to manual', No one would have the courage to implement, or they would be sure to 'interpret' in a way that kept things from changing."}, {"response": 10, "author": "lthomps", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (13:39)", "body": "I don't think so."}, {"response": 11, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (19:00)", "body": "Please feel free to say more, Lamar."}, {"response": 12, "author": "nomad", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (19:29)", "body": "Many acts which appear to be selfless are in fact selfish. For instance... I am walking down the street and I see a child whom I do not know,(I have no personal regard for the child) about to be hit by a car. I grab or push the child out of the way of harm at great risk to myself. Now was I selfless in my action, thinking only of the child or was I perhaps thinking how I could not live with myself if I did nothing, which would make my action selfish, wouldn't it? Point being.... Selfish is not always a bad thing."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (21:59)", "body": "selfish would be walking away because you were afraid of getting hurt. and i agree, one has to be selfish at times."}, {"response": 15, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:45)", "body": "that's a tough one, wer. it depends on all the variables involved. i have trouble knowing when. in fact, anytime i get a bit selfish, i feel guilty..........."}, {"response": 16, "author": "nomad", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (15:08)", "body": "Why would walking away be selfish? Why could it not be disinterest? Or even prudent? Perhaps a child is a wrong example. (pushes to many hot buttons). Let's take for instance the Kurdish people in Iran. Now they are being sorely oppressed by Sodamn Insane but I am not interested enough in their plight or their outcome to invest myself physically, mentally, emotionally or financially to alter the outcome of their fate. Am I now to reproach myself as being selfish towards the Kurds because I in essence walk d away? I think ultimately every action we take is selfish because everything is filtered through our own individual perspective. Maybe a better question would be to consider wrong and right cases of selfishness then."}, {"response": 17, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (15:39)", "body": "whether or not you reproach yourself is a manifestly personal choice- and if calling the Best Madman (U.S. Tax) Money Can Buy nasty names is how you deal with it, more power to you... the only thing that pisses me off about all of this cant re: \"selfishness\" is when it's used not to assuage the guilt (or whatever) of the unmoved (which is it's only semi-legitimate value), but instead to demean the intelligence/value/motives of ordinary human selflessness (which is not so ordinary that it doesn't deserve b tter)..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (16:12)", "body": "We are self-absorded human beings. We have great intellect and are emotional creatures. We make choices that first benefit ourselfs and then benefit others. But I (speaking as all), always come first. The only person who is going to take care of you is yourself. No need for guilt, unless you were extremely selfish. But a person who is extremely selfish? Do they have a guilty caunious?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (17:20)", "body": "If 'they' believe they are extremely selfish, then they probably do connect it with guilt. But if its just an outsider judging them... maybe not. They might have self righteous reasons for what they do."}, {"response": 20, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:57)", "body": "Does a selfish person have to be intentional about their selfishness? I could image that an person ignorant of their so-called \"selfish\" is not truely being selfish."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sun, Dec 14, 1997 (12:03)", "body": "Yes. So it goes with everything. The 'disgusting drunk' is rarely disgusted with himself. The disgust is in the eyes of the judgemental one. (Judge not, lest ye be judged stuff) On another note, The beautiful woman you have a crush on (and does not know it). Does she feel your love for her?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sun, Dec 14, 1997 (12:05)", "body": "If you could sucessfully convince the person that he was being selfish, then you could help create a little karma for him! And so we teach our children."}, {"response": 23, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (18:22)", "body": "I have always had difficulty discriminating between selfishness and selfcentered versus self concerned. Like Wolf, I tend to feel guilty if I complete something with only my interests at heart (stemming from years of the All-American, guilt ridden family, I'm sure). Thankfully, I've learned that taking your own interests and making them a priority (not necessarily THE priority) is truly unselfish or at least can be rationalized in that matter. After all, if we don't take care of ourselves, our needs, or d sires, how can we expect anyone else to? Or how can we expect to be whole enough to care for anyone else? But guilt is a powerful emotion..."}, {"response": 24, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (19:57)", "body": "...and not altogether a bad thing... it is an important component of the glue holding civilization together... guilt gave the world the carnegie, and rockerfellar foundations... led to the civil rights act of '64...etc... think what a terrible state the world would be in, was guilt not such a motivating/altering force in our behaviors... (one really needs look no further than cher)"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (12:42)", "body": "Stacey, your fighting a major paradigm when you nurture yourself before others. Society looks down on that still, but is slowly changing. If you believe in a world of reflections, then you have to nurture/love yourself first, to see reflections of a nutured/loving world. Good for you!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (13:12)", "body": "Nick--LOL!! (the Cher reference)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (20:57)", "body": "In philosophy the most consistant viewpoint is that only one person exists in the universe -- one's self. You cannot prove the existance of anyone else. Without yourself, your perception, nothing else exists. You exist, the universe exists. I can doubt the existance of other minds; but I cannot doubt the existance of my own mind."}, {"response": 29, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (09:58)", "body": "\"Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.\" -- Emerson"}, {"response": 31, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (17:43)", "body": "\"peace is in the grave- (yet) the grave (also) hides all things beautiful and good; i am a god, and cannot find it there...\" (shelley) have all eternity for peace... rather strive for the beautiful, and (relatively, situationally) good, wouldn't you?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "CotC", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (17:44)", "body": "Peace, phththpthpphthpth.... who needs it?..."}, {"response": 33, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (17:45)", "body": "did admire your beatles impression though, wer..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:07)", "body": "LOL! (again!)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (11:59)", "body": ""}, {"response": 37, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "so, like, this bird has flown?"}, {"response": 39, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (18:20)", "body": "fly on, fly on little birdy! *smile*"}, {"response": 41, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (12:00)", "body": "to warmer climates?"}, {"response": 42, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (14:15)", "body": "If there is a www.spring.com, there should be a www.summer.com!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (17:45)", "body": "*big smile* and I believe WER would appreciate that, thanks americ"}, {"response": 45, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (22:12)", "body": "but Austin has no autumn to speak of..."}, {"response": 47, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Feb  2, 1998 (22:34)", "body": "what's going on? still bad mojo at work?"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (17:41)", "body": "sorry if it seems like i'm following you two around, am not. on the subject of selfishness, is it selfish to need to vent? to need to be a b-word once in a while (and if you're wondering, not PMS)"}, {"response": 50, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (18:06)", "body": "no, all that sounds perfectly normal to me! *smile* vent at will!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:26)", "body": "should probably start another topic and warn the unsuspecting!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (03:31)", "body": "I think I am quite selfish on the whole."}, {"response": 53, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (21:49)", "body": "Selfishness is many a splendored thing. Only now am I learning the finer points (and the necessity) of selfishness in relationships, with time, with emotion. However, some of my most selfish actions help revitalize my wounded spirit so it may be more generous for others."}, {"response": 54, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (01:44)", "body": "Well put, Stacey! As a woman I can only thoroughly agree! I'm not particularly proud of my selfish traits, but it comes in handy at times, doesn't it? Oops, my three year-old has just woken up - time to stick my selfishness where it belongs, and see to her . . . will finish later."}, {"response": 55, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (04:31)", "body": "Back again. You feel you have to be selfish in your relationships? Does it protect you in any way? Why do you need that sort of protection? I ask a hell of a lot too many questions; I can assure you I'm not nosey - I just want to understand the things you say, gain more insight."}, {"response": 56, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:18)", "body": "yes, at times in all relationships. With my students... the drama and poinaiancy in their lives can sometimes drain mine. I only have so much to give and am only capable of extending and changing to a certain degree. I cannot become better parents for them nor can I make their lives (away from school) any more bearable, but I can give them tools to work with. With my family... now that I live over a thousand miles away from my parents/sibling, the times I spend (or don't spend) with them can be very demanding. I have always got to decide how much I can handle first, because they may monopolize too much (with time or guilt!) With my lover... to be a full partner I need to spend some time by myself, exploring my interests, thinking my thoughts. I need space and freedom and energy from other sources... so yes, I am just learning how to be constructively selfish in many different ways. Does it protect me? In some ways, I suppose. It protects me from being completely drained with nothing left to give, it protects me from losing touch with my favorite personal idiosyncracies!"}, {"response": 57, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (21:13)", "body": "fair enough"}, {"response": 58, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (01:49)", "body": "I think giving your students tools to work with is rather unselfish. Selfish would be if you were not prepared to do that, if you merely taught them what was in the cirriculum, no more, no less. The family reunions I can also sympathize with - Grandma always goes on about how this might be the last X-mas she will be spending with me, and so I should stay for another four weeks . . . she's 65 and fit as a fiddle!!!! But luckily guilt trips are selfish too, so I don't get bothered by them. I think needing and taking one's own time and space, and letting one's partner do the same is actually quite an unselfish thing. One's relationship with other people should on paper look like overlapping circles. Where they overlap being the time spent together and interacting. The rest of each circle still belongs to the others, but with space for itself."}, {"response": 59, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (17:03)", "body": "wow. I would never even attempt to put my relationship with Mr. B on paper... scary thought. *smile*"}, {"response": 60, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "Perhaps I should ask my two year-old to do it for you? ha-ha"}, {"response": 61, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (17:34)", "body": "tell her to use a lot of colors!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:27)", "body": "Afraid she's having her blue snail period right now. Would that be accurate, do you think?!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (21:30)", "body": "I think that I have a different definition of selfish. Than you two, Riette and Stacey. When I think of selfishness, I think of acts of self gratification that take time away from commitments or responsibilities, for no reason except self gratification. The things you two were describing were vitally important to who you are. Without doing those things you wouldn't be recognizably you. That is not selfish Certain things it is necessary to do to be you. To do these things is self maintenance. Everything needs maintenance or it breaks down. I think not to do these things would be selfish."}, {"response": 64, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:29)", "body": "And I fear I am very guilty at this moment of an act that takes time away from my responsibilities. Did you HAVE to remind me that I'm supposed to work???"}, {"response": 65, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:56)", "body": "Sorry Riette, That wasn't my intent."}, {"response": 66, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (07:40)", "body": "I hope you don't think I was angry - I was just teasing."}, {"response": 67, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:49)", "body": "I am very relieved to hear that, Riette, I did not intend to put you on a guilt trip."}, {"response": 68, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:34)", "body": "Don't worry, it takes rather alot to do that!"}, {"response": 69, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:45)", "body": "I'm glad. If there is one thing I hate it's head games. I would hate to be misunderstood to the point where it seems like I'm playing head games. I do play head games, but only with people I dislike."}, {"response": 70, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (01:52)", "body": "No head games. If I'm angry, I'll tell you I'm angry. The rest is all play. That's how my head works."}, {"response": 71, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (09:59)", "body": "there are lotsa head games that have these real funny rules. one of 'em goes like this: \"you can play this head game with anyone and think that you know for sure that it's not a head game\" they're probably the most often-used head games of 'em all."}, {"response": 72, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (11:15)", "body": "I'm not too sure about that. That makes it all too easy. And too difficult. I've always thought of head games as a sort of defense mechanism - but I may be wrong."}, {"response": 73, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (11:27)", "body": "a defense mechanism that's so internal and automatic that it bypasses awareness, is the kind of defense that makes possible that crazy rule: that people can play a head game with anyone and think that they know for sure that it's not a head game. it's one of those unwritten rules that's extremely potent and common. it's very human nature in nature....like it's second nature for all of us."}, {"response": 74, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (11:31)", "body": "Riette, I find you refreshing in your honesty."}, {"response": 75, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (06:34)", "body": "I suppose you are right, Jim. I also think that people can be too unwilling to trust in those they call friend to realize that not all games are head games. I think the two are usually combined, and make a pretty destructive duo for any friendship. Thank you, Tim - personally I don't consider it much of a virtue. Sometimes it's better to keep one's big mouth shut, and I normally don't know how."}, {"response": 76, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (21:41)", "body": "No, Riette. What you have in your honesty is a virtue, so rare, flawless diamonds are common by comparison."}, {"response": 77, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (01:31)", "body": "That is very sweet. Thank you."}, {"response": 78, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (01:32)", "body": "You are very welcome, Riette, you had it coming."}, {"response": 79, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (15:36)", "body": "I don't want to take anything for granted."}, {"response": 80, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (15:54)", "body": "Riette, you never take anything for granted, and when given your due, half the time you deny meriting it."}, {"response": 81, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (00:58)", "body": "Stop that! It's not true at all!"}, {"response": 82, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (01:16)", "body": "Of course it is, Riette."}, {"response": 83, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (15:03)", "body": "TIM! If my ego grows any more than it has done since you've been here, my head's going to burst!"}, {"response": 84, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (15:10)", "body": "Just the truth, Riette, Just the truth."}, {"response": 85, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (15:47)", "body": "If something is wrong, it should be understood, not accepted because it's sweet, if it is sweet but wrong. A friend would want to understand what's wrong. A friend wants to be honest by being in contact with what's true. If it's true that a game is not a head game, then a friend would want to focus on the games that are head games, not on the games that are not head games. And to avoid understanding games that are head games is not honest or trusting; it's not what a friend does. Friends make mistakes. Friends want to see how the mistakes happened or happen. It's true that it's a mistake to mistake a non-head game for a head game. And it's a mistake to avoid understanding how that happened or happens when it does. Friends want to understand how their mistakes happen. That kind of cooperative spirit gives a friendship the kind of trust and honesty that the friendship will need to grow in what is true. Many head games are seen as not head games, because they are caused by what's going on in our depths, under the surface. How clear are we about what happens in areas of our selves that we're not aware of? Friends want to learn about each other and get clear on what's unclear in their depths. Friends want to do that because it involves who they really are.....it involves what's true about them. Friends want to get clear with each other about what mistakes they are making about mistaking non-head games for head games. And they want to get clear on how to notice or sense or inquire into a head game that doesn't look like one. Plus, they want to get clear on head games that do look like head games. Working on this is vital to a friendship and the work can't get anywhere at all unless both friends understand how it is just as vital that the way they go into it together is done in a way that's mutually kind and exploratory and interested in understanding. To do that, friends need to be vulnerable and curious, they need to be open to what they don't wanna hear, they need to be willing to be surprised. It won't happen unless both are listening very closely from the heart. Emotions need to be gone into....hurt emotions and anger and disillusionments This is not easy, and can look at times like the other person is being dishonest or distrustful or is playing a head game about understanding head games. And when that happens, it needs to be pointed out as it's happening, and then that becomes the focus and deserves a great deal of vulnerability and sensitivity that's mutual and intent on listening to or trying to pick up on what is true. It's a different kind of honesty than just saying what's on our minds and being refreshingly direct. That's important, very important. And, but it's also no less important to explore deeper, hidden layers of honesty where we may not normally like to go, and could in fact be quite dishonest with our own selves about, as well as dishonest with others. Often when one person goes there, the other person feels intruded upon or imposed upon, controlled, or head-gamed with. That needs to be brought out, gently, with great care, as true friends are wont to do. The friendship deepens as it moves into areas once thought impossible by both friends. Does this all (or parts of it) that I'm saying here sound more than a bit suspect?"}, {"response": 86, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (01:52)", "body": "No, it doesn't. It sounds good. But it also sounds complicated. It is good to explore these things, I think, but too much of anything can simply get too much. If one asks oneself all the time, am I playing head games with my friend, is he playing head games with me, am I his friend because of selfish needs and vice versa, do I love my friend for the wrong reasons, does he really mean it when he says this, or does he merely THINK he means it - that can simply make friendship a very explosive thing, and turn every area of it vulnerable to the point where any said thing, and any done deed seem like malice. Why should one keep focussing on what could wrong when so much could go right? Is it not easier to say: Look, my friend, here's what I'm like, this is how I feel about you? And vice versa. And take it from there? I'm not saying one should not explore the vulnerable points and the good points thoroughly - just to try and be free of suspicion when doing so, and to be as honest as one can be with your friend. There is probably no such thing as absolute complete perfect honesty (because of unconscious intention etc.), but I think if you can be honest and clear about the basics, that is already a good foundation to build friendship upon. I think there can also be such a thing as destructive friendship. Where one is so desperate for the friendship to be, or where one feels very vulnerable for other reasons, where the friendship is simply unable to function without unnecessary difficulties and games. In such a case it is better to call it a day, and go apart fondly rather than tear each other apart. I think it's better to build friendship upon trust rather than truce."}, {"response": 87, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "That's good! Riette, I like it."}, {"response": 88, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "If trust is where we want the other person to overlook our meaning and intent if they suspect something about it, then it's no longer trust---it falls into the \ufffdignorance is bliss' way of relating to people. It's important to listen to ourselves and others throughout the day every day. When we do that, there will be times when questions come up about where a person is coming from when they say or do something. If we inquire into it with the other person, and if we do that more than that person considers normal, then they are likely to recoil with some kind of agitation. If I inquire into a person's behavior and it becomes focused, it can explode because it's not handled constructively. Both me and the other person can feel like malice is at work in those cases. But what often happens is that the person who doesn't like that kind of thing to happen, may say or feel that the other person does it all the time. When really it may be the case that the person inquires into what's going on in the other person only occasionally. The severity of the explosiveness can necessit te that one or both people get the impression that it happens all the time. That creates a defensive self-protective wall to prevent emotional disturbance from entering their lives. And that prevents the inquiry from being complete or thorough, which prevents trust and learning and honesty. Having a good foundation for trust and honesty can make for a constructive inquiry into each other, rather than explosive inquiry that has malice taking it over. It's also interesting to note how much inquiry is done into the good in others where we aren't suspecting anything amiss, and we just want to know more about the good thing the other is involved in---so we ask, \"what was it like to do what you did?\", or \"tell me more\", or \"who was that friend from Africa you spoke so highly and dearly of?\" It' interesting to note how that might not get a mention when we think back about what happened to us---we might think that all that other person did was focus on and inquire into stuff in us that was bothering them. It's hard to be vulnerable and non-defensive. But a good foundation for trust and honesty is to listen closely to what we feel, to be specific, to be objective (for perspective), to illustrate with examples so the other person gets a much better picture of what we're talking about, to give our reasons so it's more clear to the other where we're coming from and our real intent or motive, to be receptive by listening with an understanding heart, and to really see deeper into exactly where the wall or fear r source of where the emotion (or suspect emotion) is coming from, and then to experience it completely by experiencing it directly by going all the way into it by facing the truth about ourselves with the innocence of a child. If we aren't constructive, we complicate matters, and the inquiry only infuses our minds with overreaction, and we then naturally and defensively say that the other person is overreacting and being excessive (or doing the \"hurtful\" thing all the time). A community, a virtual community, a group of people, a friendship, they all are stronger if they include this kind of inquiry and conversation in their lives and learning. It's important to grant ourselves room to air grievances so that the airing has a chance to mature and evolve into interested listening, receptive learning, dialogue. Can we all give us a chance to do that more? And can we do it constructively? What do any of you say about any of this?"}, {"response": 89, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "jim, you have very succintly pointed out what to me are the most important aspects and foundations of building and developing relationships on-line (and relationships in general) one of the most important things that one can do is to go back and analyze one's interactions with others. pretty much any wise person you can think of has said this differently in one way or another. it is important to look at your interactions with others and ask yourself, \"where is the other guy coming from? why does he think that way? what can i learn from him? how can i make our future interactions win/win situations for both of us? can we do anythiing together that would be beneficial to someone else?\" it is very easy to do these sorts of self reflections when all of the things that have been said exist as typed text. to me, this is one of the many wonderful virtues of vitrual communities. i don't know if \"trust,\" as you use the word, exactly captures what is needed to spur great interactions and conversations on an on-line medium such as the spring. i think it is more a matter of \"attitude,\" and we can debate the meanings of these terms if you like. what i mean is that there needs to be an attitude here encompassing the idea of \"do unto others as you would have others do unto you\" and also the idea of always assuming positive intent. i think it is very possible to have a community where lively debats and conversations can be created where all parties involved come out of it learning something new. to learn new things and make new friends are the two main reasons i do this on-line thing at all."}, {"response": 90, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "I think inquiring is good. Finding out about stuff is good. But when you ask someone a question, why question the answer again and again? Would that not make the person feel distrusted, and like anything he says is in some way or other dishonest, though he doesn't know how, and finally, would that not make the person feel like there simply IS no way of being good enough in his friend's eyes? I think finding out with interest cannot possibly offend anyone. Finding out with a criticism ever ready, is what becomes hurtful. Like for example: If a person tells me, look, I don't play headgames, then I have two choices. I can believe him, and try amd accept his ways; even when he expresses himself a little differently from how I would. Or I can believe, and make sure he knows, that even though he THINKS he's not playing headgames, he might be doing so sub-consciously. Where does that leave the person? He can assure me once again that he's not playing headgames - and probably doubt whether he'll be believed second time around. Or he can change his whole personality to accommodate my egotistical needs. Or he can question my intentions. Because, after all, he gave me an honest answer, which I was not willing to accept. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I feel one can find out things about the way people are without having to question their every word, their every move. Asking him about his day's events is so much easier, and kinder a way of getting to know someone's personality than asking him about his day's intentions. I think by starting out on simple things, you can easier gain the trust needed to talk about difficult things without hurting either way. But I guess we each have our own way of thinking about it."}, {"response": 91, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "Hi, Ray! You little slipper!!! How have you been??"}, {"response": 92, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "We can't question an intent without there also being an action or a statement. So a person wouldn't just be questioning intent all by itself. The action or verbal response leads us to or expresses their intent. If we question someone's words and the intent behind them, it doesn't mean we are questioning every move they make. A reason to have a few rounds of questioning about a single statement, is to get clearer about what the other person means. That can be quite difficult if the other person is not used to being specific and clear---and it can take a few questions around a single statement. If this kind of inquiry is felt to be criticism ever-ready, or an attempt to offend, or an act of distrust of the whole person, or a means of pointing out how dishonest the other person is, or an aggressive act of malice, then the outcomes will surely by counterproductive. Intent does exist, and never alone, never without action or behavior or words. Intent is part of what is true and who we are. Inquiry is about finding out what is true. To be defensive about our intent instead of open and forthcoming, that is an anti-learning way of orienting ourselves toward life and people. We didn't learn about this stuff in school, and after school we continue to fend off this kind of learning, probably because it makes us feel like we're being attacked. It makes us feel uncomfortable, agitated, disturbed. We get upset because we feel the other person is acting disrespectful toward us. We have our self-image, and we want it to stay stable so we don't become insecure about ourselves. When we feel insecure, we panic, we become more and more subjective, and we tend to distort and portray situations in more of a one-sided interpretation. That's what we do out of self-protection. Then we feel awful because we see and feel just how screwed up we are, and how little we've progressed since (probably) grade school. Emotions are powerful forces. Emotions can be understood. So can intent. So can inquiry. Inquiry can be felt to be quite illuminating. Vulnerability can be felt be a strength, more and more, with more of this kind of learning (people learning, life learning, self learning). But vulnerability wouldn't be vulnerability if it didn't involve some hard to swallow scary perceptions about ourselves, our limitations, our intent, our self-isolating activities and emotions, our needy needs and compulsions. The thing is, this kind of learning can be quite fun, quite substantial, and worthwhile. So let's engage each other with a desire to learn who we are. If we don't engage a person's meanings, and instead just read responses, we are not truly relating. We learn stuff about another person that way, but we don't discover how they relate to how we relate to what they relate to. Life is not a passive experience. And we can't use inquiry just to inquire about pleasant things that we like about another person. That would be avoidance behavior to be so exclusive.....another form of sheltered resistance and self-protection against disturbance, and against potential repercussions to our self-image and our sense of security and pleasure. How is this going over for you? Anyone?"}, {"response": 93, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "great points! i personally find a Socratic method of questions, answers, and refutations to be be the best way to learn where someone else is coming from. Jim's ideas above seem to suggest that as well, though he is a hell of a lot more eloquent that i am. i have never felt that questioning someone repeatedly on a point is suggestive of distrust. like Socrates, i try and play the part of the ignorant fool, looking for as much new information as possible. i have found that when people engage me in such discussions that i not only learn new stuff, but my own ideas are strenghted further. my views on life, philosophy, science, ethics, politics, abortion, religioin, you name it, have all been shaped in this way. it is always best for me to assume that i do not have all the answers and that i can learn something from everyone and anyone. engaging in a serirHes of questions and answers (a \"dialogue\" as in Plato's dialogues) is the best way to learn. at least its worked for me so far!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (01:42)", "body": "Well, each has his own way. And I'm not really the never-ending 20 question type."}, {"response": 95, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (01:49)", "body": "Having dealt with both sides of the coin, Riette, I find your approach easier."}, {"response": 96, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (15:58)", "body": "Let's say someone asks me how I like my dog. And I give them my answer, which goes like this: \"I know why you asked me that, I like my dog a lot, but I don't treat my dog like you treat yours, that's for sure, and I don't whimper and grouse about it either, you know what your problem is? you let things get to you and you're very thin-skinned.\" That can have a strange effect on the person who received my answer. They may think that my answer came back punctuated with quite a load of assumptions and biases. So they may want to ask me about my answer. After they ask me about my answer, I might think that their question is loaded with assumptions and biases, so my second answer might tell them that. There may be a number of exchanges like that where the distortion and error escalates and reinforces whatever the basic or strongest assumptions and biases may be going on in both myself and the other person. I may feel that the other person just doesn't trust me. I may feel like I'm in the middle of a game of 20 questions that they're playing with me. I may feel that my first answer was extremely well put, and that the other person just doesn't know how to hear what I'm saying because of whatever their personality makeup is and because it clashes with mine and because of whatever issues are going on in their life that makes it hard for them to trust and relate. I may feel it sure would be a lot easier if they'd just get what I mean with my first answer, or at least by my second answer. People wonder why communication can be so hard. And they like to think how easy it is when people trust each other and just take an answer and make do with it and let that satisfy. The reason for using inquiry is for when answers raise more questions than they answer. Another reason for using inquiry is to learn more about what people are doing in their answers that causes the answers to raise more questions than they answer. What I'm saying, I guess, is that I'm interested in increasing the other's capacity to confront their own ideas, to create a window into their own mind, and to face the unsurfaced assumptions, biases, and fears that have informed their responses toward me and others. And likewise, I'm interested in their increasing my capacity to do the same. Plus, I'm interested in increasing my own capacity to do that with myself. I want to advocate my principles, values, and assumptions in a way that invites inquiry into them and encourages other people to do the same. So I started this response off with an illustration of how things can go bad when answers are not presented constructively and when all the responsibility for the negative consequences is placed on the shoulders of the questioner. While it's true that we all have our own way of responding, it's also true that we may be using ineffective ways that we are almost completely unaware of what we're doing to make them ineffective. To go along with a person's ineffective answer may be easier, but it prevents communication and it gives sustenance to misunderstanding and/or distrust, and a need to defensively keep these things undiscussable. Inquiry can look like 20 questions. Then, as inquiry is understood better, it can look like an attempt to really learn and clarify meanings and intentions. Vulnerability is great when it leads people to realize how much effort they'd been putting into relinquishing their own self-responsibility, and projecting it onto others. That kind of new self-responsible vulnerability strengthens trust, honesty, clarity, communication, and the whole fabric of democracy and community living, to say nothing of friendship and relationship. A person can play 20 questions and think that they are being objective and genuinely inquiring. Just because I want to learn and be vulnerable doesn't mean I'll be able to stop playing 20 questions. I am defensive. I'll exploit the game of 20 questions by acting like that's not what I'm doing, by acting like what I'm really doing is objectively inquiring into what a person really means and by acting like I'm only testing out some assumptions I have. I have my biases and fears, which I try to protect myself from learning about. This creates problems for other people I'm around. On the other hand, I think we're all doing this, whether it's through politeness, respectability, or flattery, flirting, or some other means. And so I'm saying that we can find out what causes us to do it. We can begin to see together what's really true about ourselves. We can learn how to learn, together, and see how to constructively go into rather difficult questions and concerns, and how to go into rather difficult answers. If we frown upon this kind of learning and inquiry, when it comes up, and here we are an interactive virtual community that is all about responses that we make to responses that others make, wouldn't the frowning be a form of censorship that would lead to unintended negative consequences overall? We don't like when s"}, {"response": 97, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (21:35)", "body": "Say What????????????"}, {"response": 98, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (21:47)", "body": "\"We really don't trust another person's ability to react non-defensively, do we, some of the time?\" No, Jim, we don't."}, {"response": 99, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (01:21)", "body": "Aren't we getting just a little PERSONAL in this supposedly neutral discussion about selfishness? What the hell is wrong here? What the hell is everybody pissed off about? Get it out of your systems so we can start talking to each other again, will you?? What do you people have against Tim? Is it a male ego thing? ARe you jealous of him or something? Because as far as I've seen, you guys have ALWAYS treated the new girls very nicely. Now we have a new guy, and finally a person who isn't leaving af er two responses, the first person since I came many many months ago, and you want him out! WHat the hell kind of a conference has this turned into, hey?! Does it piss you guys off that he's intelligent, and charismatic and funny? Do you think him 'competition' or something? He has had nothing but bullshit from you guys since the day he came - WHY? God, and they say women are bitchy!"}, {"response": 100, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (11:56)", "body": "I have nothing against Tim. For whatever reason it is being taken that way, I apologize. You especially, Ree, know when I attack someone versus when I simply post whatever comes to mind first. And if everyone around here looks back over the responses in several conferences, I have made several apologies when my initial responses crossed over some line, have defended people and their responses when necessary, and broken up discussions when they have gotten out of hand. I am most sorry that it seems to anyone that I am attempting to run anyone off, as the more people who regurlarly post on here, the less I have to say thereby letting me take up my natural habitat of staying in the background and listening. I am, once again, at a loss for words except for: I am truly and sincerely sorry for any discomfort that I have ever caused anyone in this community."}, {"response": 101, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (15:37)", "body": "Riette, did you feel that when Tim said \"Say What????\" it was an attack on me? I didn't think it was. Can you be specific about what was actually said that you consider an attack on Tim? What do you feel is an example of someone being bitchy right now? I'm not getting your meaning. But I'm not feeling that there is no attacking going on. There may be. I would like to see what attack looks like to different people. I think we are challenging each other with worthwhile challenges. It's healthy when we question each other about what we're saying. For me it gets hard to tell whether people have different viewpoints or whether they misunderstand what the other person is saying. I'm pretty sure I'm misunderstanding what people say because it's hard for me to tell what they mean sometimes.....not all the time. So I'll say, \"do you mean this or do you mean this or do you mean something else.\" A person can say, \"why can't we all just be friends and enjoy a really friendly conversation together that really goes into some pretty interesting notions and feelings and topics and concerns and issues.\" But I might be sitting here wondering what is meant by \"friendship\" and \"friendly\". We might wonder what we mean when we say \"love\" or \"fate\" or \"meaning\". We could feel like it's quite interesting to investigate together. The questioning may get quite rich and so absorbing. Newton was sitting under a tree when the apple piled into his head, and right around then he had a eureka. But many months and years of questioning went into preceding that moment of eureka. And this was some pretty tough questioning he put himself and his colleagues through. He had to question what was taken for granted by conventional scientific theories of his day. When people do that, they can seem like heretics or very blameworthy. The Newtons may be very passionate in their questioning and the questioning can go on for some time, learning and changing and discovering as it goes. But the colleagues and others may get quite upset with ol' Newton, because his passion arouses theirs, and it may upset their need to hear Newton back (support) what they were thinking, and they might feel that he's deliberately being obstinate and not nice to them. They may want him to be supportive, not objective. They may want him to be not a scientist, and to not feel what he feels, and to be not honest with himself (and therefore with them). They may stop trusting him, and call him out as not acting like a friend anymore. Emotions will be triggered by disagreement. Even though we all feel that disagreement is bound to happen. I think there's lotsa room for improvement in the communication department. When we disagree, how do we do it constructively, rather than destructively? How can we be specific rather than generalize? How can we be objective rather than subjective? When emotions run high and we go very subjective, how do we begin to look at that subjectivity very objectively and specifically? What makes an attack an attack? I say it happens when we move from objectivity to blame. And when blaming happens, what specifically is a person saying when they are blaming? What's more important still is what is behind the blame. What, for person \"B\" is it in what person \"A\" said that is causing person \"B\" to blame person \"A\" for saying what person \"A\" said? Can we learn anything specific about negative emotions and blaming and attack while they're happening? If so, how do we do this? Would we prefer to say to each other, \"We're attacking, let's cool off and do this better by talking about something else and just forget all this that we've been attacking each other about\"? Or would we prefer to see what it is that we're doing and what causes it to happen, so we can learn about ourselves---and perhaps by understanding the whole dynamic of attacking behaviors, we can reframe it or alter it or resolve it in a deep and powerful way.....in a way where there may be alotta mutual discovery and discerning and connection around the new findings. That's being scientific, or neutral, or objective. It's good to have some of the scientist come out in all of us. Science is meaningless without passion or feeling. They go together so well, the objectivity of a scientist and the feeling of a very aware and responsive aliveness. If a feeling is very subjective, it distorts, becomes paranoid, and scrambles the truth. If a feeling stays objective, it listens in that much further to what is actually taking place without being thrown by judgment and mental blocks like fear or blame or woundedness or resentment, anger. Anger gets locked into itself, into the image it sets up, the image of the other person and what that person is supposedly doing: in other words, that other person's negative intent or motive. Objective feeling senses there are subjective feelings taking over, and it says, \"I feel myself getting more and more subjective about this, do you feel it too in yourself? Can we talk it out?"}, {"response": 102, "author": "CotC", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (16:02)", "body": "Oops, I obviously stumbled in here by mistake. I'll go now. Carry on (looks like you were already doing a fine job of that without my imprimatur, however... :-} )."}, {"response": 103, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (21:14)", "body": "In Response 101, I ended it with 5 questions. Those questions weren't meant as questions I was asking of anyone, by the way. They were meant as prototypes. Many better prototypes exist than those I came up with. They were just 5 shots at it. Sort of giving myself some practice, too, was what I was doing. It's fun, isn't it?, to see what prototype questions different people can come up with to use to intervene constructively in conflict situations. I wonder about the reasoning behind my 5 questions. I wish people would question my reasoning more, so I can see more of the holes in it, and take that seeing and grow. I like criticism. I can really benefit from it. People's words have interesting meanings behind them, and it's fun to see if my meaning for their criticism is anywhere close to the meaning they have for their criticism of my reasoning and intentions and values."}, {"response": 104, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (00:50)", "body": "Jim go read through the other conferences. WHEN has Wer suddenly turned into the silent listener????? That's NOT how I know him. He may listen, but he is never silent. I have to confess that I haven't read through all of your response; At this point I simply lack the patience to carefully analyze and ask the right questions like a good person should. All I know is that for months now there has been practically NOTHING going on in the Spring. Then a new person comes, which is exactly what we need ar und here to liven things up again. And nobody cares. They just sulk on! Is it any wonder half the Spring is overcome with depression and sadness? I just get fed up with the fact that nobody's making an effort around here anymore. There is no more interaction, no more attention, no more interest even in each other's lives. See, I was under the impression that we were all friends around here."}, {"response": 105, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (04:21)", "body": "Sure, take your time. It's too much to read anyway. I always overdo it. I'm probably gonna overdo it again right now. And don't worry yourself about being good or doing what you \"should\". That sounds like your putting alotta unnecessary pressure on yourself that might be getting in the way of your wellbeing or something. Take care of yourself and go gentle into the lightening up process. I'll just talk about stuff with you here. And I'm sure others who read your Response 104 will be glad to talk to you, too, as they drop by, because it was an interesting and very engaging one from you. For some reason I just wanna talk about WER first. My feeling about him is that he covers alotta territory, alotta ground, he probably reads everything posted (who knows, I really have no idea.... it's just how I imagine him). I sure don't. I hardly read anything here. But when WER does a response, he always writes something very brief. So anyway, I'm just guessing he reads maybe twice as many topics as he responds to---maybe 3 or 4 times as many (like I really know anything like that?---so I'm just imagining that about WER). In philosophy he doesn't really seem to say very much, but I can tell he's there reading everything. Well anyway, I just think maybe that's the kinda thing that he meant. Plus, he might be saying what you're saying, that if things are slow right now, he feels somewhat compelled to engage more than he normally would, and that when it picks up again, he'll curb back into his usual comfort level of less participating and more listening, much to all our loss, cuz it don't get no better than WER around here, at least for me (I really like his responses). We gotta remember too, with WER, that if Stacey were around, you can forget about that whole 'listening' bit, he'll be as livened up as we'll ever see him. So I'm saying, that, to me, I see what he's saying about himself and how he is here. On the other hand, I haven't been to many other conferences, like Screwed or Art or Food or, y'know, just about all of 'em. So my impression is limited. Does it sound like I'm making no sense right about now? I just don't have any idea what's going on in the lives of Wolf and Ray and Stacey. They haven't been here that much, right, lately?, like yer sayin'? But I haven't heard them say they're depressed or sulking. Have you? Are people here really being sad, to you? Terry seems to be here as much as he ever was, yeah? Autumn seems to be around less than usual, right? Maybe only because there's less going on. But I just can't tell that it's deliberate or psychological in any way on anyone's part. Maybe it is. But I can't say that there's a certain cause for it, if it is deliberate or psychological. Do you feel that less activity has a direct correlation or something to people wanting not to be friends anymore? I've read a bunch of the responses that go on back and forth between you and Tim, here's the effect it has on me: it just looks like you guys are so into each other that I, well I don't know what to say..... can you put yourself in my position? Well, for one thing, I'm not so good at jumping into conversations, but if I see something that gets to me with a spurt or squirt of blurt in a worn out shirt, then yeah I'll pop off with some dumb darn crazy thing. So it just doesn't happen that much with me. I basically food fight the movies and then get philosophical about it, right? That's pretty much me, here, right? So, but like I was sayin' with you and Tim, I just see you two goin' at it and at it and at it, that I sorta start to blend in with the background, withdraw into some darker shadows and kinda merge with this sleek swipe of moisture that just evaporates. You guys have something real strong going on, and I just shalom away into the dunes of Namib. You don't understand, do you? That's hard for you, isn't it? You didn't wanna hear that, huh? You're glad I'm bein' honest with ya, but it hurts and it angers you, doesn't it? Well tell me some things. Gimme some more of yer impressions. Ya know I wanna hear 'em. And hey, I can listen even as good as WER can, I promise ya. I may not ever be able to be any kinda like the friend you want. But no can beat me up or punch me out or even come close to stoppin' me from bein' yer friend, as dopey dope as I might come across half or all the time towards you. I love you (as a friend). That line might look unbelievable or inscrutable. But it sure is pure truth. And it can't be forgotten. I dunno what else to say. I probably didn't respond too good to what you had on yer mind. I probably don't make no sense. Maybe I slip through too many other fences to keep track of. Every time I come up to the canvas I keep knockin' it over by mistake with ma beeg fat butt. I dip my brush in some cool lookin' paint and turn to the canvas and there it is again, flat face down on the floor. I pick it up and the brush falls outa my hand onto my toes. I pick it up and the canvas falls over. An engin"}, {"response": 106, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (12:57)", "body": "Jim, Riette was really upset with the attitudes some of the men on the conferences. and last night she decided to leave the conferences for good. She is not upset with you."}, {"response": 107, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (04:29)", "body": "Okay, maybe I'm beginning to understand some things. But maybe not. See what you think of this. Tim, the \"attitudes of some of the men\" has to do with how they are towards you, am I right? You're not talking about attitudes they have toward other stuff, it's how they're acting toward you? I went looking around and found some things in Screwed and Sex that may have to do with what you're refering to. I'll take one example, and I'd like to ask you if you feel it's representative of the kind of thing that's been going on that's become a difficulty: Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 46 of 55: Tim Guenther (TIM) * Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (01:36) * Whatever you want, Riette, anytime, anywhere. Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 47 of 55: Riette Walton (riette) * Tue, Dec 1, 1998 (01:34) * To hear you confess in church while standing next to the priest? Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 48 of 55: Tim Guenther (TIM) * Tue, Dec 1, 1998 (01:39) * Kinky, Riette, however I'm up for it if you are!! First, though you'll have to find a church that uses that kind of confession and has priests. There are no priests in my religion. Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 49 of 55: wer (KitchenManager) * Tue, Dec 1, 1998 (22:08) * There's priests in Christianity... there just may not be any in your denomination... Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 50 of 55: Tim Guenther (TIM) * Wed, Dec 2, 1998 (00:39) Somebody totally missed the boat here!!!!!!! I Believe we were talking about the church where i worship. What difference does it make if the church next door has a priest, unless they have the same belief in confession?????? Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 51 of 55: Riette Walton (riette) * Wed, Dec 2, 1998 (01:07) * Tim, stop that! I know you and Wer don't like each other; he didn't like me either when I first came, and at this point doesn't like me too well either, but come on, sweety. Try and be nice - if you give him a reason not to come anymore, then my argument will not be valid anymore. See? Now, get over here. biggest biggest kiss ever Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 52 of 55: Riette Walton (riette) * Wed, Dec 2, 1998 (01:08) * 1 Please don't be angry. But if you are, I'll understand. Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 53 of 55: Tim Guenther (TIM) * Wed, Dec 2, 1998 (01:24) * Riette, I hate it when I do that. The man is performing within his abilities and I'm Holding it against him. Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 54 of 55: Riette Walton (riette) * Wed, Dec 2, 1998 (11:26) * As long as you don't get angry - it will sort itself out at some point, I'm sure. Topic 20 of 21 [sex]: Your biggest turn on Response 55 of 55: Tim Guenther (TIM) * Wed, Dec 2, 1998 (12:09) * Yes, Riette, that's the point exactly. __________________________________________________________ Here's a possible response that could have occurred: wer: Tim, I'm glad you said why you felt somebody totally missed the boat. You felt it was because we were talking about your church, and because it wouldn't make any difference if we were talking about any other church, unless they have the same belief in confession. I really only said what I said to you because I thought it would be cool if there was still a way you could do with Riette what she suggested, so I suggested that there are priests in Christianity, because maybe there was a church you could go to in Austin that would be okay with you, and you could still do that confession to a priest just as Riette said, after all. Tim: That sounds different now from how I first heard it. I made some negative assumptions about your response and I didn't test them out by asking you whether you also felt it was true that we were talking about just my church. Riette, you made the statement that wer and I don't like each other. That felt like an assumption that you did not check out with either wer or me. How come? If you had, it might have been a real effective way to learn if your assumption is true or not. I do like wer and I feel he likes me. There are times when we misunderstand each other's statements, but we both like each other. Maybe that's how wer was with you, too, at your arrival here at Spring. In fact, it often happens that we like a person quite a lot and our feeling for them goes into why that feeling we make our assumptions with is as strong as it is, except we so often don't test out our assumptions with the person we make them about, and we often don't illustrate what we mean by them or really give ourselves much of a chance to be the friend we all say we want us all to remember is so good to be. Riette: Okay, but I wish that the first time around that wer had anticipated how easily it was gonna be for you to interpret the way you did what you thought he meant in his response. I wish he had somehow worded what he said differently. I assumed he was t"}, {"response": 108, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (04:37)", "body": "Here's the part again that didn't all transmit with the above response: And I guess what I'm saying, too, is that there's stuff that goes on in human nature that has like a causal theory that goes with it, something like: will feel bewildered and misunderstood. He or she may therefore react defensively (unless they are afraid or prefer to be dependent on the evaluator).>"}, {"response": 109, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (04:43)", "body": "Last attempt---hope it works this time: And I guess what I'm saying, too, is that there's stuff that goes on in human nature that has like a causal theory that goes with it, something like: ill feel bewildered and misunderstood. He or she may therefore react defensively (unless they are afraid or prefer to be dependent on the evaluator).>"}, {"response": 110, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (05:05)", "body": "And I guess what I'm saying, too, is that there's stuff that goes on in human nature that has like a causal theory that goes with it, something like: s will feel bewildered and misunderstood. He or she may therefore react defensively (unless they are afraid or prefer to be dependent on the evaluator).>"}, {"response": 111, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (05:14)", "body": "And I guess what I'm saying, too, is that there's stuff that goes on in human nature that has like a causal theory that goes with it, something like: If someone produces unillustrated evaluations or assumptions, whoever receives the evaluations or attributions will not know the basis of them unless they are illustrated, by specifying what exactly the receiver said or did, and then interactively testing out the assumptions by explaining why the assumptions were derived from the receiver's statements or actions, and then by checking out how valid the attribution seems to the receiver of the attribution. The receiver of unillustrated, untested evaluations will feel bewildered and misunderstood. He or she may therefore react defensively (unless they are afraid or prefer to be dependent on the evaluator)."}, {"response": 112, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (11:32)", "body": "If we were dealing with an isolated incident here, and only an attack on me, I could agree with you a little. I could overlook the fact that the response was totally inappropriate for the discussion. I could call it an honest mistake. But the attacks have been continuous and made with considerable finesse, so that it is hard to look at one occurrence and call it an attack, however, if you look at all the responses made by wer and ray prior to 0000 thursday, and After the 10th of november, and look at the new topics started by them during that time, a true and ugly picture emerges. So, Jim look at all the topics in screwed, sex, food, art, philosophy, music, restaurants, porch, science, environment, austin, vc, education, web, and computer. look at how often responses were inappropriate when dealing with Riette or myself. As against dealing with anyone else. Look at the new topics created in screw during that time. Inappropriate? Maybe not. Excessive? definitely. One more thing. Riette is not the only person to leave the conferences for this reason. Kristin left for the same reason. Had a problem with the same people. Now we have a mutually exclusive situation here. Neither Riette nor Kristin want to be a part of conferences with wer and ray. So, either we have Riette and Kristin or we have wer and ray, Now, we don't actually have this choice because wer and ray are entrenched here. However, if we got rid of wer and ray, and brought Riette and Kristin back, I think we'd have a lot more discussion going on than there has been the last two days."}, {"response": 113, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:38)", "body": "well for heaven's sake, i just dont know what to say. i am completely flabbergasted by all of this. i *never* intended for anyone to be hurt by anything i have written here, but apparently i fucked up somewhere along the way. i am totally, totally at a loss to explain any of this. ask and you shall recieve, tim. i shall not be signing on anymore to the Spring. the nature of ASCII based communication is such that i really do not have the time to spend worrying about how some will misinterpret what i say and write. i live on the Well and on Rheingold's Brainstorms community as well, so i will still be in cyberspace, as i have been for the past 20 yrs. my email is rlopez@texas.net in case anyone wants to keep in touch!"}, {"response": 114, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:38)", "body": "ENVIRONMENT topic 10 responses 9 and 19 real quickly"}, {"response": 115, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:38)", "body": "That was very helpful of you. I appreciate your being specific like that. It was just what I needed. I think I see, Tim, the kind of thing you're referring to: Topic 10 of 10 [environment]: global climate change Response 9 of 25: Ray Lopez (ratthing) * Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (16:22) * 13 your family may be lucky, or simply have a genetic predisposition to be better able to process the carcinogens in cigarette smoke. your small sample in no way negates what many years of research on many thousands of people indicates. your soft drink example is also poorly expressed. no one has everys said that \"cyclamates cause cancer.\" exposure to them may up the chances of getting cancer, but the issue of causation is too complex for anyone to make any strong claims straightout. same goes for smoking. _________________________________________________________ The way Ray says \"in no way negates\" and \"your soft drink example is also poorly expressed\" felt to me to be somewhat contentious. The \"in no way negates\" may be true, but I was feeling Ray was in debate mode, not dialogue mode. __________________________________________________________ Topic 10 of 10 [environment]: global climate change Response 19 of 25: Ray Lopez (ratthing) * Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (11:53) * Vaccines The microprocessor Longer lifespans Satellite commo Better weather prediction electricity tv remotes radio so what's your point? you still have not specified any good reason why you hate me and my kind so much. is it because science is not perfect? i challenge you to identify one human endeavor that is. in your post above, you present a mishmash of products, some are bad, some good, but why blame science for all of this? you are entitled to your opinion, of course. and you can pull a kaczynski if you want, withdraw from technology, and live in a shack in montana. i just dont think is is very polite to go spouting off about how bad and stupid a certain group of people are just because your life has been inconvenienced, especially since you seem to be ill-informed about the ways of science. your black and white view of things will not work here. ________________________________________________________________ The \"so what's your point?\" \"hate\" \"mishmash\" \"pull a kaczynski\" \"withdraw from technology, and live in a shack in montana\" \"spouting off\" \"bad and stupid\" \"you seem to be ill-informed about\" \"your black and white view\" \"will not work here\" are wordings that feel antagonizing and undermining, to different degrees. ______________________________________________________________ Topic 10 of 10 [environment]: global climate change Response 15 of 25: Tim Guenther (TIM) * Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (13:07) * 3 Scientists, by their irresponsible rantings, are messing with my life, indirectly, but still a pest. Part of the problem is that scientists refuse to take responsibility for the results of their actions. ________________________________________________________________ \"their irresponsible rantings\" \"messing with my life\" \"pest\" and \"refuse to take responsibility\" are wordings about scientists that feel contrary and counteractive. Since Ray invests alot of himself into being a scientist, for him to hear someone express theirself negatively toward science will tend to make him bristle, right? Would that be in some way similar to if someone were to speak negatively of your church, and raising your ire? Even after that, he felt good enough about you and Riette to say what he said right after you two in \"Crosby, Stills and Nash\", in Response 43. That made me feel he appreciates being able to engage himself in enjoyable, divulging conversation with you. An act of sharing. Tim, you're a guy who has a lot to say about alot of things, and in a situation like that, you're bound to run into different points of view from others. When that happens, both you and they move into more of a debate way of relating to each other, as you all get more and more personally invigorated and self-invested in the force of meaning the subject matter matters to all of you. Not always, y'know, but it happens. Could I suggest a whole different approach? In the cooperative-and-community spirit of love thy neighbor and the golden rule, how do you feel about being the one who takes the initiative, the first step in that other better direction of regeneration and understanding? Can any of us begin to understand the nature of human mistakes? Aren't we all fallible? Could it be that I'm goofing up, and/or have goofed up here, as much as anyone? Sure. I see mistakes being made. We're just so far from being perfect. The heart can understand these sorts of things. We could be working with each other on it. Helping each other to see how the effect we have on each other leads to very apparent consequences. Separative thinking and viewing the other as attacker and enemy is colliding head-on with disharmony and upset. It's a malfunction. You need to feel that it's necessary, though, because of the circumstances,"}, {"response": 116, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:38)", "body": "Jim, I believe actions speak louder than words. I am still looking for something concrete that will show me that I was mistaken. It's not there. when Riette was here, wer and ray were active in several conferences. They made replies to areas where I was talking to Riette, and to other people. a lot of these replies rubbed me the wrong way. I took that as an attack. Right or wrong, that was my perception. Riette was also fielding replies that I considered to be less than civil. I'm glad that you looked where I told you to look. Now consider this: I never made any statement to the effect that I never intended to hurt anybody. That is because I did intend to hurt, on several occasions, people I perceived as attacking me. Ray, however, DID say that he never intended to hurt. Look at the statements in the sample you looked at. Does it look like he did not intend to hurt? I think not. So, here is a perfect example of a lie. During this discussion, he repeatedly and deliberately insulted me, questioning my educational level, my sanity, my political views, inferring that I was some kind of nut. This is the sort of discussion he would not DARE to have with me face to face. I eventually realized that argueing with him was like wrestling a pig in the mud. You get nowhere, and you realize that the pig enjoys it. I hold educated people to a higher standard than those that may not have been to college. I expect some tolerance of conflicting views. I at least expect my VIEWS to merit discussion. That never happened here. Ray Ignored my views and started attacking my education level first, and never even considered that my view had any merit whatsoever. If I had been responding to him to start this discussion, I would have been a little more tolerant. However, I was responding to someone else and ray just charged in, completely derailing the original discussion. It was this pattern that I saw repeated nearly every couple of days. Maybe I am ignorant. I just consider charging into a discussion and changing the subject, to be impolite."}, {"response": 117, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:38)", "body": "I value this response of yours very much, Tim. It's nice to see your views on inappropriateness. We've looked at some hard evidence, and we've both commented on what our interpretations of it was. That's so crucial in enabling another person to understand what we really mean by words like \"attack\" \"impolite\" \"hurt\". That's quite a step up from saying there are 3 males who know who they are and have been attacking me excessively. It looks like we both value valid information once it's made available. I also appreciate your being forthcoming on this other important point you made: ______________________________________________________________ \"Now consider this: I never made any statement to the effect that I never intended to hurt anybody. That is because I did intend to hurt, on several occasions, people I perceived as attacking me. Ray, however, DID say that he never intended to hurt. Look at the statements in the sample you looked at. Does it look like he did not intend to hurt? I think not. So, here is a perfect example of a lie.\" __________________________________________________________________ To me, what you say there seems accurate, except for the inference that Ray was lying. He may have been lying. But he may have not had that example (in the Environment topic) in mind at all when he said that he didn't intend to hurt. Upon re-examining his responses, he may feel that they aimed to hurt you, at certain points, even though at the same time he may also say to you something like, \"Tim, I see quite clearly, from your helpful responses here about your reaction to what I said there, that I did hurt you. It wasn't my intention to do that, and all I can say is I definitely feel I made a mistake, I got too wrapped up in the heat of the debate and, yes, I could have worded things much much better. Your pointing this out to me is going to be significant for me. I'm sincere in saying this to you, I think I can do better and I will try because I want to and because I can see better now just how my choice of words would have the effect on you they did. I had apologized to you about the Kazinsky (sp.?) thing, and now I want to say to you that I'm sorry about my other wordings in there that were not courteous. I said them not to hurt you, but to show you that the things you said confused me and didn't make sense to me---that's just how I talk when I want a person to try harder to make sense to me---I apply verbal pressure like that--- but I'm getting something of a grasp on it, with this feedback, and yes maybe probably really subconsciously I may have been trying to hurt you.\" Tolerance does have something to do with allowing another person to talk on their terms and then proposing to them, cordially, another perspective and seeing how they respond to it. I thought Ray was doing rather well with that approach at the beginning of the topic, his earlier responses. Then he didn't do as well with tolerance after that. His first entry was to get clarification on 2 terms you were using with Terry (\"scientific double-talk\" and \"irrefutable evidence\" or something like that). Don't you regard that as a helpful thing to do? Did you mean \"charging in\" to mean after that point sometime? I should go back and look (I'm a little lazy, sorry), but was it you who brought up smoking as an example to explain something, so would Ray have been following your lead by replying to that? So was he really changing the subject? It's true that Ray could've said what he said, and then said something about the topic, too, or said something like \"hey I know we're off-topic, everybody, so reply with something that is back on topic whenever you want, just come on in here if you have something to say.\" But wouldn't it be true that everything you guys were talking about throughout that topic in all your responses actually did have to do with global warming, in the sense that the question of what science is and does, and what refutable evidence really is, plays in quite heavily on how we can talk about climate changes (if there are any changes)? And is it possible that, if you liked Ray, that the getting-off-topic would have been not looked at as because of Ray, but would've been looked at as \"well that happens all the time, and anyone at any time can bring it back on topic---in fact, we often respond to more than one thing in a single response, like the off-topic thing in one paragraph, and the on-topic thing in another paragraph\". I thought the points you were making were cool. And so were Ray's. I've often been wondering what people mean when they go on about global warming---I've wondered if they are using it as an outlet to vent how irresponsible they feel the powers-that-be are, and maybe they do that to have a scapegoat, a target to aim their frustrations at, to just feel better. I liked seeing the back-and-forth give-and-take on science and hard evidence It was a good one, or could've been.....the potential was being partially realized. As"}, {"response": 118, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Dec  6, 1998 (09:36)", "body": "Yes, Jim you make a lot of sense. Riette and I could poke fun at each other, without anger, because we always made sure that our statements weren't taken seriously. This happened only rarely with other people. Also we responded to each other more than 50 times a day, and only a small portion of that time were we poking fun at each other. In the case of the responses that were attacking me 80 percent or better of each person's responses were poking fun. You can see where the situation is different. Yes Jim, any response that pokes fun at me right now, is an attack. specially if it occurs in screwed. After four months have passed, I will consider myself fair game again. Maybe before that. Right now, however, it is an attack. It makes no difference how it is intended. I am too raw, and too angry to respond any other way. There is only one person that could poke fun at me, without it being taken the wrong way, and she is no longer with us."}, {"response": 119, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (02:24)", "body": "Tim, take care with this response---it's going to go in a bit of a different and maybe strange direction. In this topic, and not just here, I am seeing sides of you I like. But I am also seeing other sides of you I don't like. Do you see sides of me you don't like? I see sides of Wolf I don't like. Sides of Terry, Wer, Ray, Autumn, Mike, Stacey, Charlotte, George, Tommy, Nick, Riette that I don't like. Sides of them I do like. The ways I like and don't like people's sides affect my behavior with those people. And I'm lousy alotta the time at reciprocating. Somebody will respond to, say, some poem I might write, and then there's no response from me to their response. Non-reciprocating from me happens in lotsa other ways too. There are some people I just haven't related to: Wer, Nick, George, Mike, Wolf, Tommy, Terry. There are some I have: Riette, Autumn, Stacey, Charlotte, Tim. The ones I've related to, they have sides to them that I don't like. And sides I do like. The likes and dislikes affect my behavior toward them. I've had problems with Wolf that bother me as far as how I don't know what's the matter with me that I keep getting in the way of myself regarding her. When I say I haven't related to the ones I haven't, I mean there wasn't a rapport that caught on with me and them. But I do like them. Why is that, that I haven't related to the ones I haven't? Because of their ways of talking or ways of thinking or ways of being. Something about those ways didn't appeal to me somehow. What I'm really talking about here now are my prejudices, my discriminations. My prejudices affect my behavior: I can be bitchy or guarded or interrogative or doctrinaire or overexacting or playful in a way that just isn't that cool, etc., when I'm responding from within my negative prejudices. I've said things to people here that I've regretted. They were mistakes. They occurred when I reacted to some side of them that I was prejudiced against. There are sides to Riette that I'm prejudiced against. We have had lotsa interactions, and my prejudices affected some of my responses toward her that I've regretted. Same with Charlotte and Wolf. Just off the top of my head those three came to mind. There have been others. The people who I haven't related to, I haven't been very welcoming to, for the same reasons. If they had been new people, I would've been deplorable as a welcomer towards them. Now when I look at you, Tim, I see sides that I don't like. Sides I do. Same with me---sides of me I like and don't like. The sides of you I don't like, are a result of my judgmental assumptions that are negative and prejudiced. They affect my verbal behavior toward you. If I had been more involved in Spring and interacted with you more, those prejudices I have about the sides of you that I don't like, um, those prejudices could have entered into behavior I could have used on you, behavior that would have been read by you as attacking you, and, of course, as not welcoming you. Those are the 2 biggies that you and Riette brought to our attention as the reason things went so bad that Riette had to leave: not welcoming you and attacking you and Riette. Was it that Riette felt attacked or just that she felt horrible that you were feeling attacked and that everyone seemed to be acting bitchy? What are the sides of you that my prejudices dislike and that could've eventually had me lapsing into behaviors you would've read as attacking? These aren't some of your sides, they are \"sides\" of you created by my subjective prejudices: 1) you swept Riette off her feet 2) you have done so many things and you know so much and you kept talking about it 3) I was afraid you were going to get political on me with any reponse I might try with you 4) your views seem so often to be so strong and extreme 5) your way of responding seemed kinda tough-guy-ish, and oversure itself 6) your way of being direct didn't seem to be aware of how it would feel to be on the receiving end of that directness 7) you oversaturated Spring with your responses 8) you were having an affair with Riette over a large canvass of responses/topics 9) I felt out of the mood to enter into the 'Food Fight' topic to get something going because what was going on in there were all these nice charming playful replies you were having with Riette 10) you seem to take good care of your ego so that it was very much there but also trying to merge with its surroundings (the people and things at Spring) 11) you said Riette's name in almost every one of your replies Those 11 things were getting on my nerves about you. They were my prejudices, errors, like #7 was one of my subjective mistakes affecting my perception of you. I couldn't see you because of my prejudices--meaning I couldn't take you in or see you objectively for who you are as a person. They formed an image about you that kept me away. This is how far I've fallen as a person. This is how judgmental I am. It affects my behavior, my responses, and h"}, {"response": 120, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (21:54)", "body": "Jim let me start with this. I am not responsible for the manners or lack thereof posessed by any adult, unless I taught that individual while they were in my charge. One other thing before I get into the depth of my discussion here: I'm 43 not 42. That being said, let's go on. Jim, you have a lot more tolerance than I do. If someone tries to kill me, I'll never know if it was a case of mistaken identity, because they will either succeed, or I will kill them. Nobody gets a second try at my life. There is no reason for dialog. I live in a world that is good or bad. If it is not good, it is bad. no reasons are needed here, no talk it is or it isn't. Clear cut, simple. On your 11 negative things, I agree with all but three. #7, that I oversaturated Spring with responses. I responded to less than 25% of the topics in Spring. #9, Why aren't you in food fight now? I'm not. #11, that I put Riette's name in almost every response. That was because I was responding to Riette. I was having a problem at that point with people picking my responses apart before Riette got back to them. Putting her name on a reply flagged it ,so that it was easier for her to see."}, {"response": 121, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Dec  8, 1998 (00:02)", "body": "I'm having a problem, Tim, understanding something now. You're saying you're not responsible for someone else's manners. That makes sense. Yet your manners can have an effect on a person. Let's say that manners includes choice of words and includes being receptive to another person's confusion or frustration in understanding you. You may not want to say that you should feel responsible for being attuned to how another person is taking what you're saying. But what if it's somebody who you care about a lot? What if you notice their mistaking what you're saying for something you're not saying, wouldn't you want to say, \"I'm sorry I gave you that impression, that was not my intention. Here's what I meant.\" Don't you do that with people? I have seen that response from you. And it felt like you were feeling responsible for doing well at understanding how the other person was taking what you were saying. You may not agree with how I'm saying it? or putting it? I'm assuming that when you wrote: \"There is no reason for dialog. I live in a world that is good or bad. If it is not good, it is bad. no reasons are needed here, no talk it is or it isn't. Clear cut, simple.\" .....I'm assuming that you were not referring to just a killer who's after you, that you were referring to anyone? If dialogue means to talk something out, wouldn't you be willing to do that with your son, or an adult you respect and trust? If you did mean that you would not dialogue, did you mean you would not dialogue with someone whose manners you feel are hurtful toward you and attacking? Is it that that's the situation when you would not dialogue, or all situations? Or are you saying it's a matter of your choice, as in you'll dialogue if you choose to? Since you're dialoguing with me, I can assume you will dialogue if you choose to. So what you're saying is that you will not dialogue under certain conditions, right? Can I assume that your meaning is that you will not dialogue with anyone whose manners you feel are inappropriate toward you? What I'm driving at is that your manners (including choice of words and being aware of the effect you're having on someone) could be affecting the other person's manners. For example, I wrote a response or two earlier in this topic that Riette reacted to where she said something like \"Why are we getting so PERSONAL and bitchy?\" I could listen to her and consider my manners (as in my choice of words, my intent, and whether I cared about the effect I was having on Riette). If I felt like I was getting to her in ways that were counterproductive, and I felt I could also maybe do something about it that I wouldn't mind doing and would be something that might feel to me to be for the better, then I could make the adjustments in my manner to more productively accommodate her manner, her temperament or state of mind, her needs. If I see someone being what I feel is bitchy, do I give up on them? Did it seem like Riette gave up when she did that response? Or was she not giving up and instead attempting to continue dialoguing while mentioning something that was bothering her about the manners she was running into? How are you understanding this stuff I've been saying here, Tim? Am I communicating? Does it sound like I'm misunderstanding you?"}, {"response": 122, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Dec  8, 1998 (03:28)", "body": "Manners are the result of upbringing. I have dialog only with people I can trust to tell the truth. Attacks merit defense. The best defense is a counterattack. I will trust someone to tell the truth until they prove me wrong. these are how I deal with acquaintances,for friends it's different. I am done discussing this with you, Jim."}, {"response": 123, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Dec  8, 1998 (17:52)", "body": "as of today, i am back on the spring. this decision is the result of much discussion with terry, riette, wer, and others. i am gratified that everyone wanted me back. you too, jim. as for you, tim, well, you have a lot to learn about on-line conferencing and a lot of other things as well. if you do not want to learn, then don't, but don't expect your time here on the spring to be pleasant. as for me, i am more than willing to forget all of the negative and stupid things you have said here and to let bygones be bygones. as for that little crack you made above in response 116, that i have said things here that i would not dare say to you face to face, well, don't flatter yourself. the exchanges we have had here were nothing compared to exchanges i have had with others, online and face to face. i have walked into rooms full of antivivisectionists or fundamentalist Christians to debate things like animal rights and evolution, and have been physically attacked in spite of my size. i've had yelling matches with other scien ists at conferences, then had beers with them afterwards. i was a boxer and have walked into rings with other guys who hated my guts, and i theirs. i've had my ass kicked intellectually and physically more times than i care to admit, and i've kicked ass a couple of times. so there."}, {"response": 124, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Dec  9, 1998 (05:26)", "body": "But how do we learn about online conferencing, Ray? If I want to learn about it with you and others, then how would I go about it? I was thinking that one of the first things to do is to help create an environment that is conducive to learning: a psychological environment that is encouraging of feedback and questioning, and that shows genuine respect for the other person or people. I wanted to ask you whether you felt you demonstrated that kind of creating in your response just now? This is my feedback, as I was noticing how I was feeling when I read your words: \"as for you\" and \"stupid\" and \"so there\" They seemed to me to lend themselves to an air or tone of taunting or \"take that, Tim\". They seemed to lend that tone to the other words in your response, to create an overall feeling that just wouldn't sound so encouraging to Tim. Having read your response above, Tim might feel something like this: if you were in a situation at a later time where you were agitated by something in one of his responses in the course of a discussion with him, he might feel that you may react in a way that's rather quick to not let bygones be bygones. I'm thinking it's important to get our points across to the other person, but to see how we can say it nonjudgmentally, in a way that doesn't sound like we want them to change because we said so. Having that unilateral sound in our wordings can be counterintuitive. We could be replicating the very thing about the other person that we want them to change in themselves. If we can inquire into our own meanings (to learn), one way to do that could be to ask the other person how they feel about what we just said, and be genuinely interested in their response. That creates an air, a tone, an atmosphere that is collaborative and very respectful......it feels inclusive to the other person. If we would truly like to see change for the better in all of us, I'm suggesting these things may be of some help to have in mind, especially when we sense there's tension building between us and someone else. Let me take a crack at it, and this time you can feed me back your impressions, like I did for you----starting with the second paragraph: _______________________________________________ \"Online learning is not easy for any of us here at Spring, in my humble opinion. When we are out of the mood to learn, then we don't have to, but sometimes when that happens, it can make things pretty hard on those who feel the consequences. We have said some things to each other that are regretable and, I think, showed how much we are still oriented toward anti-learning behaviors. But that's just it, we can learn from those extremely rough experiences we had together. In Response 116 you said, approximately, that I wouldn't dare say to your face what I said elsewhere here at Spring. Tim, when I read that, I felt [nonjudgmental words describing the feeling] because [give your reason by wording it in a way that will not produce a defensive reaction in Tim]. The exchanges we have had here remind me of exchanges I have had with others, online and face to face, some of which were much worse than ours. I have walked into rooms full of antivivisectionists or fundamentalist Christians to debate things like animal rights and evolution, and have been physically attacked in spite of my size. I've had yelling matches with other scientists at conferences, then had beers with them afterwards. I was a boxer and have walked into rings with other guys who hated my guts, and I theirs. I've had my ass kicked intellectually and physically more times than I care to admit, and I've kicked ass a couple of times. I'm moving away more and more, hopefully, from the debate format and yelling and ass-kicking. I'm focusing on learning, and with a truly esteemed regard for the other person's sense of self, and I'm leaving behind tendencies and circumstances that head in the direction of altercations. One of the most important ways I'm learning to do that is to craft what I say so that I word it to have as minimal a defensive reaction in the other person as I can. Another way is to test any attribution I make of the other person, and to do that by wording the test or question in a way that is specific, objective and designed to reduce counterproductive consequences. All that helps learning, and I hope it helps me with you and everyone that hangs out here. I really do look forward to joining you again in this kind of effort for some exciting exchanges and conversations.\" __________________________________________________ In the spirit of learning, Ray, I ask you, what do you think of what I've said in this response? I really had a surge of good feeling come over me when I saw that you were back. Way to go!! It was so cool."}, {"response": 125, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Dec  9, 1998 (09:07)", "body": "jim, my response above was not at all conducive to any sort of community building. it was a beginning sample in what TIM could have expected from me had he still been around and continued on his course of action. i think learning about living the on-line life is just like learning how to live in real life. you try something, assess its impact on others, and adjust fire from there. for example, i told terry and others over the last few days that i wanted tim to stay on the spring. i felt that he deserved a chance to change his ways and maybe learn some more constructive methods for having exchanges on line. just as in real life, there are prescribed ways for interacting on-line. the only way to learn those rules is to get out there and do it and learn from trial and error. those who fail to learn the rules or refuse to learn the rules will experience life differently from those who do. ettiquette and rules are what binds a community. when those rules don't work, the community breaks apart. we witnessed a good example of that here recently. now, in my own defense: taking the time to help someone learn the rules is not easy. it is kind of like raising a kid, or even a puppy. it takes work. i am not the guy for that, really. not only is my time very constrained, but i am also not that patient of a guy, though i am working on that. i am hoping to experience fatherhood here within the next couple of years so maybe all of that will change!"}, {"response": 126, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Dec  9, 1998 (21:33)", "body": "Hi Ray. Got a lot outta yer response. My suggestion, and it may be in error, is that if Tim were to continue along his course of action, I would like first of all to get clear with him on what that actually is. Once I'm clear there, I would ask him how that plays out in certain situations. Then I'd be more clear. Then I would talk over with him how I feel about his course of action and ask him how he feels about that. Once I was clear with him on that, I would begin asking him to investigate our meanings and reasonings, if certain discrepancies exist for me or him. For example, he and I may agree that he feels his course of action is to counterattack someone if he feels he's being attacked. He may feel that that may be the case because it may be that he feels someone is not acting toward him in an appropriate manner, again and again---and he then may feel that constitutes a person who, through their cumulative behavior, is attacking him when they say something to him that is perceived by him as inappropriate. Once that course of action is tested for understanding and gotten clear on by both of us (and hopefully by others in the community), then Tim can be communicated to about how that course of action sounds to anyone who wants to respond. At that point, I would present to Tim a question about a discrepancy I feel exists in the logic behind his course of action. So I would ask him this: \"If you say that you determine that someone is attacking you without talking to them about it to check with them to see if it's true that they are attacking you, in a particular incident and cumulatively, and to check and see why they feel they are acting that way toward you, wouldn't that mean that you are being unfair and acting inappropriately? Isn't that unfair because it means that you are acting unilaterally according to your subjective perceptions only, and deciding for both of you? And, this is very important here, isn't it true that if you do talk to the other person about whether they attacked you, and you talk to them in a way that other people (in the listening community) would confirm is likely to cause a defensive reaction, rather than in a way that is appropriate, objective, and learning-oriented, that it will very likely induce in the other person a response that will resist or sound bewildered and therefore will be a counterproductive response? Isn't that being unfair?\" I would bring that discrepancy up as me and Tim and hopefully others talk this out together. I have some reasons for not regarding this process as being patient with someone while \"they learn\" the \"prescribed rules\" of \"etiquette\". It's that I'm learning. I'm learning how to talk to someone in a win/win manner under difficult circumstances. A second reason is that, somewhere along the line, I may also be misunderstanding Tim's real intent or reasoning, and that by using care in my talking it out with him, I may be able to detect and correct my own error there. Another reason is that I also may discover something else that may be going on in me: I may find out that I had acted towards him in ways that I feel were breaking the \"rules\" of constructive interaction that I want to learn how to do in a community building way. Even if I reach a point where I'm clear about his course of action and I disagree with that course of action, I regard it as counterproductive to aggravate Tim with my way of talking to him about it at that point. I know that it's possible to be friendly while saying to someone that I believe their course of action to be disastrous. It would be then that I would simply present my perspective to the community and probably say what it implies as far as how I would react. I would talk it over with the community. I may feel it to be not useful for me to be in that community, if I had a choice, and if disaster simply seemed inevitable. What I'm also wanting to say is that, if your reasoning, Ray, is that you've made up your mind about Tim's course of action and what it implies to you, and therefore it feels okay to you to adjust fire by saying something to him in a way that will likely make him feel the inappropriateness/mistreatment continues, then aren't you using a form of counterattack in the defense of yourself against some possible attack that hasn't happened yet? Aren't you using the same reasoning that is contained in what you feel is his course of action, a course of action you're saying you regard as also so damaging to the community? Wouldn't saying what you said to Tim the way you did--- instead saying it in a community building way---wouldn't it contribute to the likelihood that he could read it and react defensively and thereby more likely get off on the wrong foot in any attempt that he might genuinely want to make to be a part of a Spring community-building effort? What I think is the case with people is that it's hard to have the patience it takes to learn. I don't think that it's a case of having the patience to t"}, {"response": 127, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Dec  9, 1998 (21:55)", "body": "no, not at all jim! i hear what you are saying and i like being challenged. i guess that one of the issues you raised above was quite salient, that of emotions. it is difficult to apply your otherwise sound reasonings to a situation where someone is just really pissed off. in the case of the interactions between me and tim, he was genuinely pissed off at scientists as a group, and had a very visceral response to anything smacking of scientism. on the other side, i had quite a strong response to what i perceived as a repulsive form of anti-intellectualism and prejudice. i do not know of many instances when putting together two visceral responses ever ended up in something constructive. my take on him was that he was absolutely not willing to learn anything new or discuss anything at all. i may be wrong on that (i hope so) but that is an assumption i was working under. also, to be honest, i really and truly do not believe that my responses to him in the environment conference were that bad. i have been involved with much worse interactions, and i thought i was being pretty tame. given how disgusted i was with his attitude, maybe i wasn't. i can tell you the next time someone shows up with an attitude like that, i will handle it differently, assessing first the other person's willingness to engage in a constructive dialogue."}, {"response": 128, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (00:35)", "body": "I think that under those conditions, Tim was unwilling to talk as constructively as he could have. He has responded constructively to some pretty hard questions being asked of him under conditions that seemed less tense. Ray, would you agree with that? I was hoping for myself that the next time a person shows up with an attitude that is difficult for me to deal with, that I will be able to handle it constructively by assessing first both my and the other person's willingness to engage in constructive dialogue and then by following through wholeheartedly on some creative and generative tools for bipartisan growth. If I can actually do that, and I don't have my hopes up, because it's extraordinarily difficult to do, but if I can do that, then what I'd be doing is I would be putting two people together with viscerally opposed viewpoints, who are still able to see how the emotions can be defused through understanding, how the viewpoints can be seen to make sense, and how the differences can come to be seen by both people as valid. One thing that helps me in a situation like that, is to check with the other person to see if they feel like it's a very visceral experience for them, like it is for me. I also like to try to sound out to them what I feel their point of view is and asking them if I've got the gist of what they're saying. Just hearing me do that, is often a big help for them emotionally. What I like to do then, is say something like: since you feel that scientists are responsible for their theories or discoveries, in terms of the byproducts that result from their work, and since you are inconvenienced by those byproducts, it makes sense that you would reason that scientists are being irresponsible. I like to give reason to the other person's reasoning. It helps. They feel validated. Tension is released. What's being validated is that someone else is really seeing, calmly, what it is that they're feeling and thinking. I can remember and realize and reflect on how many times I've been confused or emotionally upset by what someone has said to me, and then was eventually able to come around to allowing their view to be a part of the reality I felt a need to get along with. A democracy and a learning community thrive on people being able to grant diversity and variety to their living environment, while each individual is still being able to be true to what their own perspective is. It can look demonic, what the other person is saying. It's amusing how we ourselves used to think, some years ago, and how it might now seem deplorable to us today. We invest our selves in our perspectives. When I'm hearing two people arguing, it's not that big a deal to me, emotionally, like it is to them, because I haven't got my self invested in their perspectives like they do. When we are so much a part of our perspective, then we start to notice things about that other perspective (the other person's perspective) that would want to challenge our perspective. Our emotions start to feel attitudes in the other person. Our emotions portray the other's attitudes. Their attitudes get portrayed by our emotions as something very base and vile, and deserving our contempt. The assumptions are pure certainty, going totally unchecked, untested. We don't need to test them---we know. We know what's right and what's true. So we keep it private, even when we say it out loud. Because when we make it public, we do it in an antagonising rather than genuinely inquiring way. That way it remains in it's self-sealing, private state of certainty. We can see this whole process going on inside us as it's happening. We can learn about how our minds work as it's going on. We can say to ourselves that something like this is going on in their mind, as well. We can identify with their powerful need to attitudinize, and see it as us too......us doing that, too. Then we can begin the real work. We can sense a need within to be constructive about this. We can give 'em a break, the benefit of the doubt. We can see what's goin' on, that we both have powerful needs surging through us, which will need equally powerful skills at seeing how to be objective at a time like this. We might notice something funny going on inside us. We feel they are tremendously prejudiced, but then we start to feel how that feeling we have about their prejudice is also a prejudice that's extremely prejudiced. Then we have one of those \"omigod, am I lookin' in a mirror?\" I suppose what I think is, that it comes down to this: if a person is arguing with me and they're showing lotsa attitude, I can have a tremendous affect on that attitude by taking away what it thrives on (and also what my attitude thrives on with other people). I can take away from them any antagonizing force coming at them from me. I can see how vitally important that one action is, on my part, if I can do it, if I've got the discerning wherewithal to pull it off. Through understanding my own attitudes and how they wo"}, {"response": 129, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (00:48)", "body": "hey jim. i never really saw any evidence that tim was really able to engage in any sort of constructive debate, but i also did not read everything he posted, either. in fact i never read much of his postings til he went to the environment conf. i think that your points with regard to constructive methods for communicating with someone like that are well taken. to me, it sounds like dale carnegie! you have obviously put a lot of thought into this issue, and i am curious as to what sort of bottom line insights you have come up with. i'll bet it's \"do unto others as you would have others do unto you!!!!!!!!!!!!!\""}, {"response": 130, "author": "PT", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (01:33)", "body": "That sounds like a good policy."}, {"response": 131, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (05:59)", "body": "I thought Tim's entries in 'Selfishness' went a long way to explain what was really going on in his mind. Direct questions were asked of him, and those questions were answered. He showed his reasoning processes. Extremely candid about it, too. So often people don't say why they think the way they do, they just tell you what they think. That seemed constructive. He didn't give me a hard time or turn on me with choice of words. So we were able to talk alotta stuff out, I thought. That seemed constructive. My last response did sound more positive-positive than usual. Dale Carnegie-ish.......yeah, I can see how one would feel that. Or it could be seen as constructive ways to deal with emotions and attitudes, our own and others, with a healthy sense of fairness as to how there may be an equal amount of those two things (emotions and attitudes) going on in both people who are having a difficult time with each other. The desire to treat another as one would like to be treated, is only a beginning, a foundation piece. As far as attitudes to exude or show another person, that golden rule attitude is mighty constructive. It opens up channels of receptivity within oneself and lends a sense of fairness and equality to the give-and-take. But I don't think Carnegie had much to do with confronting a person. That was just the sort of thing that positive thinking tries to avoid. But in a dialogue, if it's going to be real life, it's gotta involve questioning and confronting and challenging and mutual exploratory investigations. Here's how I look at it: .....if trouble brews between two people (or more than 2), that trouble is what then becomes the focus of the conversation for me---it no longer is what the conversation was about up to then. And what I focus on at that point is whatever seems to be at the center of the conflict. It's always reasoning. Reaoning controls emotion. It's the emotions that are pouncing and roaming for a rumble. And the reasoning behind them tells them why what they're doing is the right thing to do, and so, gives them plenty of justification, and rationalized reasons. That way of looking at the problem---to get at the reasoning that is leveraging the conflict---is far away from Carnegie-type stuff. So the key is to create conditions that are conducive to learning, otherwise anti-learning attitudinal indulgence will stampede the grounds, and no one will get near the reasoning that is controlling the emotions and controlling the conflict that's going on. A learning organization or learning community is sure not what the Carnegie-types had in mind. But the key to creating an environment for learning is the concept of valid information. Valid information is directly observable data that is confirmable. An example would be what you said in your last response. Your words are in print, we can refer to them and all agree that yes indeed you did say those words. If people validate with each other the information they are using, then they have a base to move on from. The validation process must involve free and informed choice. If people are coerced into accepting a choice, that will prevent learning. Free and informed choice enables people to detect and correct errors. That's learning. A scientist notices there is something missing with this theory or that function. There is an error. The scientist can detect the error if the needed valid information is present and if valid information clarifies for the scientist how the error can be detected. When that principle is used with people, it often shows itself in the form of espoused theories and theories-in-use. Espoused theories are what we say that we do. We might say, for example, that we like to dialogue. But someone notices that when we dialogue, we tend to debate and hold things against people. What we are actually like when we \"dialogue\" are our theories-in-use. What that means is we have theories that we go by when we talk to people about how we are and how we like to do things (espoused theories), and we have theories we go by when we act and do (theories-in-use). So, with people, the learning that occurs is when valid information is used to detect error in the discrepancies between our espoused theories and our theories-in-use. Finding out what those two theories are that are going on in a person is a matter of using non-coercive and non-trivial inquiry into that person's reasoning. A person could be said to be learning when they detect an error in their reasoning by detecting an inconsistency or contradiction between the reasoning used in their espoused theory and the reasoning used in their theory-in-use. When a person does detect that error or errors that make for contradiction between what they say and what they do, and when they correct that error or errors, then learning has occurred and there was productive change. If I sense that there's something up, but I haven't surfaced my reasoning, then I still haven't detected the error---I can only te"}, {"response": 132, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (08:48)", "body": "as long as things are clear in your head that is cool. some of the greatest works of philosophy in the history of mankind were nothing more than self-thoughts written down by the author!"}, {"response": 133, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (09:04)", "body": "PT, are you TIM? if so, then that is cool. i would like to apologize for making you feel badly here and am fully willing to accept my half of the blame. if you choose to ignore my postings here then that is ok. welcome back."}, {"response": 134, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (09:18)", "body": "Thank you for putting that into words, Jim. It helps me too. Welcome back, Tim."}, {"response": 135, "author": "PT", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (12:35)", "body": "The T in T Patrick McCourt, stands for Timothy. The PT are my two middle initials. The last name I have now, and the one that I was born with, is Guenther. During the time I was in College, I changed my last name to McCourt. It was that way for five years. The Army made me change it back. I used it to get in when My legal name would not make it past the filters. So much for that. I really would like to get back to using my legal name again, but it still won't make it past the filters. I am really sorry about what happened. I never should have gotten as carried away as I did. I blame myself more than anyone else. Ray, I can't assign you even half the blame. If I'd exercised a little self-discipline, It never would have gotten as far as it did. I've been an ass. Again, I'm sorry."}, {"response": 136, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (12:50)", "body": "It's good to have you back."}, {"response": 137, "author": "PT", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (16:01)", "body": "Thank you, it is good to be back."}, {"response": 138, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (16:01)", "body": "welcome back timothy patrick mccourt guenther! all is forgotten."}, {"response": 139, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (18:33)", "body": "wow... nothing like scrolling through a zillion posts after the fact! Glad to see the Spring spirit (for lack of a better phrase) alive and well again. Hey Jim! You kept me rapt with your mediation. I took it to heart all of it (except that part about there being a side of me you don't like cause I know it's a lie! *cackle*) Thank you for investing so much time and energy into a difficult situation. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I sure appreciate your desire to help people better understand others (and themselves)."}, {"response": 140, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (19:33)", "body": "indeed!"}, {"response": 141, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (23:06)", "body": "I'd like to second that and welcome Tim back, myself!"}, {"response": 142, "author": "PT", "date": "Fri, Dec 11, 1998 (11:29)", "body": "I also appreciate Jim, and am glad to be back."}, {"response": 143, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Dec 12, 1998 (19:41)", "body": "I really appreciated Jim's insights into this whole situation. Your wise words lent some clarity where there was previously none (for me). Glad to see harmony at the Spring. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 11, "subject": "Reality and Illusion", "response_count": 74, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:40)", "body": "illusion (we are voting, right?)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:42)", "body": "what was the question?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:48)", "body": "sigh..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (12:46)", "body": "think we know the difference and choose to make our own reality........."}, {"response": 6, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (12:58)", "body": "happiness is drugged these days (i.e. prozac)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (12:59)", "body": "don't think that's what you meant, though (silly me)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (17:28)", "body": "I don't think anyone can tell the difference.. We each experience, then label things according to our beliefs and fears etc. How long did everyone believe the sun moved around the Earth? On a different note; Are denial and illusion getting to be synonomous?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (01:23)", "body": "Most of the time we live in our dreams. Is not the first song we learn in school: \"Row, row your boart, gently down the stream, merrily, merrily...life is but a dream.\" So life is just a collection of stories and dreams. We write it as we go along. I suppose there is freedom in this perspective. But it is not clear that we can easly get out of our boxes -- even if we think they are self-imposed."}, {"response": 10, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (01:57)", "body": "...I declare my faith: I mock Plotinus' thought And cry in Plato's teeth, Death and life were not Till man made up the whole, Made lock, stock, and barrel Out of his bitter soul, Ay, sun and moon and star, all, And further add to that That, being dead, we rise, Dream and so create Translunar Paradise. I have prepared my peace With learned Italian things And the proud stones of Greece, Poet's imaginings And memories of love, Memories of the words of women All those things whereof Man makes superhuman Mirror-resembling dream. (Wm. Yeats, from \"The Tower, pt.3\") sigh..."}, {"response": 12, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (02:30)", "body": "I think that's basically what Yeats was saying... It is tautological, of course, in a way (what else CAN form reality, but our perceptions?... and nothing is proveable, beyond them)..."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (11:02)", "body": "Given that Yeat's stuff was on the button. Why do so many insist on proving their illusion to be the 'correct' item?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (11:27)", "body": "Americ; \"But it is not clear that we can easily get out of our boxes -- even if we think they are self-imposed.\" Perhaps you can't get out if you fear leaving something behind. Like your identity? or maybe your accumulated defenses against the world? Is it fear that is always getting in the way?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:52)", "body": "mainly fear of incarceration, i think..."}, {"response": 16, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (23:09)", "body": "Perhaps you can't get out if you fear leaving something behind. Like your identity? Well....loss of identity can be a fair-some thing. They might lock you up as crazy."}, {"response": 19, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sun, Dec 14, 1997 (12:12)", "body": "I speak of the ego identity we think is so important for our survival. The adult. Not the child. Do you take your identity with you when you dream? Is it a fear-some thing?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (18:24)", "body": "Again, isn't your identity just another manifestation of your reality which is in fact a modification of your illusions and perceptions?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (19:46)", "body": "yes. sometimes think, though, that \"illusions\" are custom-fitted to justify it (identity)... that the integral part of identity is a core-issue, malleable only to a degree... (but i also clapped for tinkerbell, so what the hell do i know?)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (12:51)", "body": "With all the musical chair identities out there/here, anybody see a common thread/purpose/theme? Looking for a road going somewhere."}, {"response": 24, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (09:58)", "body": "WER, have you read Donald Bartheme's \"The Dead Father?\" I think you'd enjoy it."}, {"response": 26, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:35)", "body": "A non-traditional journey with some surreal and atypical characters. Interesting. Curious. Odd. The kind of novel you might want to sit down and ponder with a few brews. And I thought you'd prefer something less substantial for a gift..."}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (09:43)", "body": "*grin* Well. You were exhibiting a swiftness problem earlier... if we can get that under control..."}, {"response": 30, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:24)", "body": "Oh my. I'm having all sorts of illicit thoughts! Which frightfully has come solely from public correspondence. What on earth might happen when we meet? I guess I'll just rely on my self-control."}, {"response": 32, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:31)", "body": "*sly grin*"}, {"response": 34, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (14:19)", "body": "*discreet pinch*"}, {"response": 36, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (18:21)", "body": "*slight moan* *ear tickle w/ the tip of my tongue*"}, {"response": 38, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (15:54)", "body": "Off and on, I have been thinking about doing an \"InfoTheatre\" event. Light show. Three computers. Projectors on to the walls. CyberLove skits. Couple meets in cyberspace -- lots of mind heat. Then they actually meet. Interesting twists are possible. Reality and illusion can play a lot here."}, {"response": 39, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "It would be neat to meet the faces behind the words, but scary too, don't you think? What would be really neat is to guess who is who, rather than wear little stick on name tags.........Hmmmmmmmmm"}, {"response": 41, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (12:18)", "body": "Depends on the group. We could have special \"screens\" to allow people to \"see\" only what they want to see."}, {"response": 42, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (13:46)", "body": "That would be fine if wer agrees to leave his x-ray glasses at home."}, {"response": 43, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (18:55)", "body": "think he'd set it up so we'd have to see everything! (Probably have someone else pose for him-heehee) Wer, you'd better start workin' out, baby......."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (18:55)", "body": "(Oh, I'll be there, for sure-at the gym, I mean)"}, {"response": 46, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (16:31)", "body": "They do say clothes make the man.... As far as the gym goes, you work in a restaurant, right? How much self-control could you possibly have surrounded by all that shrimp scampi and tirami su?"}, {"response": 47, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (21:51)", "body": "No joke! Don't you ever get sick of lookin' at all that food? Have heard from many people that after working a restaurant, they could never eat out again. (But I agree wer, definately wear clothes, something, a potato sack, but not the birthday suit, no way!)"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (21:55)", "body": "And Americ, you're gonna hafta give some of us time to make ourselves presentable!"}, {"response": 50, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (17:26)", "body": "were you surprised? and, for everyone else's benefit, he did wear clothes!"}, {"response": 53, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (20:30)", "body": "How were you surprised, what did you expect? (BE honest)"}, {"response": 55, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan  8, 1998 (21:15)", "body": "are you avoiding MY question????? *smile*"}, {"response": 58, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (18:13)", "body": "That is not an explaination of what you first thought of me!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Jan 11, 1998 (23:27)", "body": "and, was this an example of reality or illusion? *wink* I know I've had my share of illusion lately (at no other fault but my own)"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Jan 11, 1998 (23:28)", "body": "(and wer, i wear safari, just in case you were curious or if you were wondering what the hell that smell was *grin*"}, {"response": 63, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Jan 11, 1998 (23:33)", "body": "here???"}, {"response": 65, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jan 12, 1998 (17:52)", "body": "I think I prefer illusion, Wolf. I find reality highly overrated."}, {"response": 66, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Jan 12, 1998 (21:55)", "body": "yeah, but at least with reality, you know what to expect (most of the time)...get the hard, cold facts right in front of you....though i do indulge in illusion as reality gets a bit too predictable (esp. my reality). Wer, who wants a perfect nose anyway, at least you have character (and this is a high compliment)--BTW will try not to overpower the room with my stench! *wink*"}, {"response": 68, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan 15, 1998 (17:38)", "body": "sorry... unintentional loss of network connection for a few days! No perfume WER. I don't wear it. My expectations of you were, as I said before, not physically tied. I was neither surprised nor familiar with your presence but I was a bit taken aback by the initial shyness! Once you were out of your work atmosphere, it was hard not to call you WER as you seemed just like you are here. Funny, witty, dry and a little somber. At KL, it was hard not to call you William. A certainly different environment!"}, {"response": 71, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (12:28)", "body": "Is Zoe your daughter, wer? How old?"}, {"response": 73, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (13:49)", "body": "4 is a splendid age. My younger daughter will be 4 in April, and I recall it being a smooth, calm year for my older girl"}, {"response": 75, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (19:31)", "body": "Autumn, April what? My daughter will be 5 on the 12th."}, {"response": 76, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Jan 17, 1998 (16:01)", "body": "Lydia will be 4 on April 3 and Juliette will be 6 on April 25. She is forever asking me why her sister's birthday is first when she was born first. I try to explain that her birthday is 11 1/2 months earlier than her sister's, but she doesn't go for it! Is your daughter entering kindergarten this fall?"}, {"response": 77, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sat, Jan 17, 1998 (16:01)", "body": "yes and I'm already worrying about it..........."}, {"response": 79, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (02:56)", "body": "(those are beautiful names, autumn...)"}, {"response": 81, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (21:37)", "body": "And yours too, Nick? (thanks, by the way, I always liked the frou-frou names)"}, {"response": 82, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (23:43)", "body": "my daughters are named nicole (nikki) and erin... sons too numerous to list..."}, {"response": 83, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:03)", "body": "My kittens names are Tahja and Rafikki. They'll be six months on the 28th. (sorry, the impulse to conform was overwhelming)"}, {"response": 84, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:06)", "body": "(those are beautiful names, too... origins, please?)"}, {"response": 85, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:40)", "body": "Recurring dream about a tiny kitten started about 1 1/2 years ago. In my dream the kitten's name was Rafikki. Odd as it may sound we decided to look for Rafikki rather than find any cat and give her the name. Took us almost a year. She had a sister in the litter that Brandon really became fond of. We took both Rafikki and her sister but had to wait a week until we discovered her name. Tahja just fits her personality. She is pristine and mischevious, never aloof. Both kittens adore people and, despite their growing size, insist on perching on shoulders when we are cooking, reading, sweeping... anything! And they both enjoy showering. Tahja will jump completely in, Rafikki won't walk under the spray but will sit to the back of the tub. A roundabout explanation of where their names orginated. The brief one would be... they just are."}, {"response": 86, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:53)", "body": "that is a lovely, enchanting story... (and rather unique, must say... first instance i've heard of recurring cat dreams... don't know what freud or jung would make of that...:)"}, {"response": 87, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:14)", "body": "I like Rafikki, it reminds me of that mystical baboon in the \"Lion King.\" My sister-in-law is very intuitive about identities also. She sensed her truck's name is Silver Hawk, and her trailer is Moongazer. Her own name is now Brightstar."}, {"response": 88, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jan 20, 1998 (18:14)", "body": "*smile* I asked my kids today what they thought their names meant and whether or not they thought their name fit them. Only one student (Kyle) said he didn't like his name and didn't think it suited him. He would prefer to be called James."}, {"response": 89, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Jan 20, 1998 (20:20)", "body": "Wow, that's interesting...usually it's the girls who hate their names and want to have whatever is the most popular name (I myself yearned to be a Tammy! Now I am so glad I'm not!) Are you going to start calling Kyle James from now on?"}, {"response": 90, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:32)", "body": "I told him to take 48 hrs to think about it. If on Friday he still wants to be called James, yes, I will make an official 'amendment' to my grade book."}, {"response": 91, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:37)", "body": "I figure there are few things these kids can change about their lives, or have any control of... if the name helps... we'll use it!"}, {"response": 92, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:57)", "body": "It may make all the difference in the way he looks at his life."}, {"response": 93, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:59)", "body": "*fingers crossed* let's hope it helps!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (21:35)", "body": "Ok stacey, what happened to kyle or james?"}, {"response": 95, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:27)", "body": "and think of the pygmalion effect of this: \"I figure there are few things these kids can change about their lives, or have any control of\" what if a teacher would figure there are many really important things kids can change about their lives, or have total control of."}, {"response": 96, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:52)", "body": "And there is the other side of that too Jim. What if the kids ever figure out how much they can change."}, {"response": 97, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:58)", "body": "They would be the new pygmalions. And I bet it would sure work, and then the teacher would go through some heavy changes about their own teaching potential."}, {"response": 98, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:05)", "body": "They would for sure. Some of those changes , they wouldn't want I expect."}, {"response": 99, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:13)", "body": "Don't pig out on those pygmalion expectations around any teachers though, Tim. It might turn 'em back around to lowered potentials."}, {"response": 100, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:28)", "body": "It might at that. and then again it might spur them on to higher potential."}, {"response": 101, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (15:27)", "body": "You mean using reverse psychology on 'em to get them to prove you wrong by showing you that they do want all changes to their teaching potential that result from their students pygmalioning them into seeing how their teaching can be freeing for the students when their teaching realizes its potential? That was hard to decode---whatever it is we're talking about. I think pygmalioning isn't as good as noticing what the kids are and what they're going through, while listening to the beat of life. I think throwing out positive and negative expectations is the best thing. That leaves the teacher (and the student) much more open to possibilities. In other words, that's really saying that positive expectations can hinder growth. I think they do, because they take up room in the mind that could be room used for noticing what the kids are really like. That's important because when a teacher sees that, they can combine their energy and creative attention with the student's hidden or unhidden desire to discover and learn and live. There's more room/space/reception for flashpoint interplay. That fusion of mutual interest is what touches off wonder and the disciplined pursuit of wonder. \"Discipline\" meaning focused interest, like when you're noticing a friend walking into open area 25 feet away from you, and then you see their silhouette against the full moon. And it astounds you. And you weren't going to take your eyes off it until you saw the whole thing. That's discipline, as that same kind of attention can be applied to how new experiences in learning talk to you from the inside throughout the day."}, {"response": 102, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (21:44)", "body": "I agree. Expectations do get in the way of learning. All the time."}, {"response": 103, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:35)", "body": "That and a one-sided attitude towards learning."}, {"response": 104, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:48)", "body": "That is part of what I meant by expectations. The attitude that progress will be demonstrated in a linear fashion. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 12, "subject": "The Couch", "response_count": 33, "posts": [{"response": 2, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (13:49)", "body": "Move over, you are crowding the rest of us..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (14:21)", "body": "Hey, you think we're the only ones who've got problems? Gossip is the leastof my worries--frankly, I'd be flattered!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (17:37)", "body": "We're sure glad we're just watching this episode on TV. (popcorn, beer and laughter!)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (17:48)", "body": "I'm scared! What are we talking about? What are we watching? Is something watching us? I'm still scared! It's all so real, it makes me want to run away. Where's my blankey? Stop doing that!!!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "Hey Rita, If your in the TV with them. Who's this beside me? Damn... Now I'm afraid to look!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (23:06)", "body": "someone turn on the lights! is this seat taken?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (23:06)", "body": "oh god, turn them back off........."}, {"response": 11, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (23:13)", "body": "don't pretend to be shocked (I know better)... This scene is a little to Roman for me, though..."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (23:14)", "body": "sit down, get comfortable, relax...........here, there's a space by me"}, {"response": 13, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (23:21)", "body": "Not my scene, I'm afraid...did have a feeling wer was one of those pleasure-mixed-with-pain guys, though"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (23:24)", "body": "can't talk for wer, but he did say he needed a place to sit down......."}, {"response": 15, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (23:26)", "body": "he's definitely found one..."}, {"response": 17, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (02:15)", "body": "*roflmao* Like they say, wer, different strokes... (didn't know an eggbeater could be used in quite that fashion, though)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (11:13)", "body": "Rita, if you don't know how to do the 'funnel thing'... don't ask. Its either something you inherently know about, or will never understand! Besides, there are 'other people' here. Or are we back out of the TV?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:12)", "body": "Someone's going to have to enlighten me on the eggbeater and funnel thing--I'm no Betty Crocker...."}, {"response": 20, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:24)", "body": "This is really wer's area of expertise (and- must say, autumn- was SHOCKED to find you amid that scene last night)... suffice to say, though, that next time wer starts unpacking kitchen implements and/or appliances, you might oughta move down the couch..."}, {"response": 21, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:26)", "body": "Yeah, you need to make a space for nick!!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:35)", "body": "Once he produces a melon baller, I'm outta here!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:35)", "body": "baby, i got all the space i need... just don't go for that communal stuff"}, {"response": 24, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:38)", "body": "uh-huh......your curiosity is lit though *grin*"}, {"response": 25, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:39)", "body": "wer's gonna faint, you know, when he reads that (and your only giving him ideas, autumn- though i suspect the melon baller has crossed his mind...)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:43)", "body": "have no curiosity remaining to light (very jaded)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:44)", "body": "is that a challenge?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:49)", "body": "perhaps after a suitable period in quarentine..."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:54)", "body": "you're gonna need it if you stay here too long (that is, unless you got your shots)"}, {"response": 30, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:55)", "body": "yeah, but I ain't touched anything..."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:58)", "body": "just as a safety precaution, you will need to be decontaminated"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:59)", "body": "we can toss ya in the dishwasher!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (23:04)", "body": "wanta change rooms? need a karma change..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (23:07)", "body": "name it......"}, {"response": 35, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (23:12)", "body": "karma...interesting idea."}, {"response": 36, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (23:15)", "body": "really depends on how one wears it..."}, {"response": 37, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (23:20)", "body": "philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 14, "subject": "The Devil", "response_count": 48, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "CotC", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (16:45)", "body": "Hey, WER... funny you should mention He/She/It/Them/Us... I bought a really good \"Biography\" of the Devil at 1/2 Price. I'm almost finished and I'll bring it to you shortly."}, {"response": 2, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (17:18)", "body": "yeah, i've got a copy of nixon's memoirs, too..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:40)", "body": "*chuckle*"}, {"response": 4, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (00:57)", "body": "You beat me. I was going to create a topic called \"Mammon\" to follow \"God\". Devel will do. I have thought about the devil. I often equate the word with the sanskrit \"samsara\" or illusion. It's just the path of illusion. And, illusion, by and large feels real, or it would not be illusion."}, {"response": 5, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (01:09)", "body": "i dunno, americ... perhaps the darkness is merely separation/absence from God/light, but i believe it to be as \"real\" (as tangible) as anything... (and how else can you explain bob novak?)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (01:22)", "body": "yeah, that's true, that is the modern understanding... originally conveyed anything not of God, which by extension becomes of the Other One..."}, {"response": 9, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (02:00)", "body": "no, i've got more hang-ups than they do... (as you know, that bunch really swings) i'm what you might call celtic-christian..."}, {"response": 11, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (02:14)", "body": "*roflmao* very nice, wer..."}, {"response": 12, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (02:18)", "body": "of course, mary (in that scenario) would be viviane, or rhiannon, or the lady of the lake... (and bing is irish, you know...)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (02:34)", "body": "i'm pictish-scotti...(of the tuatha de danaan)... it's all the same blood, though... don't know if cernunnos is pictish (though prob. not, because there is no pictish written tradition)... she is the goddess with a rack, correct (of the horned variety)? don't know what she represented, though she sounds like some kind of fertility goddess (though that could be natalie influencing me)..."}, {"response": 16, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (05:29)", "body": "has jim bakker read this book?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (07:10)", "body": "(sorry, don't know what that means, either) just 2 points, each of them sort of obvious (as mine invariably are)... first being, inclinations of the flesh are not necessarily unhappy, nor can they necessarily be postulated as being \"evil\"... and, though some inclinations are undeniably so, these are only manifestations, i think, of larger \"evil\" inhabiting host/manifesting person (not talking \"the exorcist\" here, you know what i mean)... and second, evil's always been among us, as has \"satan\"... he just uses better p.r. people now... in so very, very many ways, our times are superior to those of our predecessors... any student of history can tell you that this era, as poorly conceived as it may otherwise be, is a vastly easier one to inhabit (for most of us on this planet) than probably any other... (which does not, of itself, justify it, i realize, but still merits consideration)...one thing that comes to my mind is the treatment of/life-choices for women... i have 2 daughters, and the idea of any man (other than me, of course) telling them (just kidding) what to do, think, be, etc... makes me crazy... they are precious to me, and the very idea that their life experience could be inhibited from their births is repellant... yet, if i did not live in this era, t'would undoubtedly be the case (and i would probably pass my remaining years in prison...which is still distinctly possible, i do concede)... the flip side is the dimunition of standards, which permeates this american epoch... \"liberation\" implies such for all... it is indiscriminate, and applies equally to mediocrity, which our species replicates, and nurtures, with something akin to enthusiasm (and with appalling ease)...truly is, like don henley (a prescient irish-texan, after all) said, \"a graceless age\"..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (09:52)", "body": "Thank you nick! will have henleyisms spinning in my head all morning -- not a bad way to start my day! About satan. I do have a few problems with everyone focusing on him as the personification of evil. It is within all of us. Evil that is. And those who fall victim (if I may) only heed more of the dark side than some. Satan did not start out all bad, he was just overcome by a few longings (hell, aren't we all!) and never resurfaced. I'm all fer the rest! and in such case as mediocrity can be related to evil --- public school systems are on the backend of their fall from grace! BTW, I'm not all that coherent today, if you couldn't tell from the indiscriminate babble. Today would be the last day of school before winter break. All have been anticipating it... four VERY weary days... but chocolate will make everything better... i just know it... one more day... just hours away from rest..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (13:42)", "body": "he's a shriner, too (most people don't realize that)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (16:04)", "body": "Was the Lucifer, God's favorite angle? He just had a great fall."}, {"response": 22, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "Don't know if he was God's favorite, (is He able to do that?) but Lucifer was up there in angel ranks. Guess he got a big head and God put him in his place. Course, Lucifer didn't go alone."}, {"response": 25, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (18:59)", "body": "lemme guess who's side you're on.........oh, wait, you were there! That's right. So tell me how it really goes ;)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (11:33)", "body": "having a christian upbringing always makes me think, good ol' lucifer was called the angel of the morning, how then can a god so good create evil, would not be more like a child questioning his father. Though more a theological question, perhaps an anology Jungian idea?"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (12:19)", "body": "God likes questions, though. Lucifer was trying to be God."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (12:23)", "body": "he wanted what God had, is that such a crime?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (12:29)", "body": "no, but he coveted. (never heard Lucifer called \"angel of the morning\")"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (12:37)", "body": "Yeah, but would you think it has something to do with dualalities. Its son of the morning Isaiah 14:12."}, {"response": 33, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Jan  3, 1998 (00:57)", "body": "Sinfear -- perhaps, you might not mind if I bring back the top of \"God\" I retired for a while. IT is a difficult one -- but I think it has a place in philosophy."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Sat, Jan  3, 1998 (02:37)", "body": "Yeah that would be a cool idea,"}, {"response": 36, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (14:03)", "body": "and more... Very good for M. Victor Hugo! The Supreme Intelligence so dazzled that it will no longer distinguish the Holy of holies from the worker of all evil! And yet there are people who read this blasphemous nonsense, and do not say: \"It is absurd!\" The restoration of the invisible disgraced one is become, in the unbelieving world, as sort of accomplished fact, big with threats for the future. But a word on the two best known advocates of poor Satan. The first is M. Proudhon; the second, M. Renan."}, {"response": 37, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Nov 25, 1999 (17:55)", "body": "Too bad this topic died...it is very interesting...but today. when I am beset with devils, there is no one around with whom to discuss the subject. Is anyone alive on Earth besides me? Is there really a point to all this? Why?"}, {"response": 38, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Nov 25, 1999 (17:57)", "body": "...and what is more demonic than pronouncing someone unfit with whom to talk, discuss, exchange pleasantries...be civil...cruelty!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 26, 1999 (18:30)", "body": "Ahh nold's new movie is about the satan coming to New York at the Millenium to find a bride and father a child. Hey, not a bad pick gals, he's been around a long, long time, he has a steady job and he wants to have kids. Could be worse picks right?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 26, 1999 (18:30)", "body": "End of Days"}, {"response": 41, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Nov 27, 1999 (11:52)", "body": "...but, Terry! He sounds so monotonly stupid. I think I would have a real problem not throttling the guy or just walking away out of sheer boredom. He may have all those vacant-minded good-lookers. Give me someone with a great mind. That is very sexy, indeed!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 29, 1999 (09:51)", "body": "Marcia... why so down on Thanksgiving day? And why did you spend it alone??"}, {"response": 43, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Dec  1, 1999 (19:32)", "body": "In retrospect, I had two choices that I was aware of. I could have spent it at the Civic hauling stuff around (heavier than I need to be hauling)in preparation for the Basketball Tournament starting the following day, (that is where my Inconsiderate Other spent his day) or I could have stayed home and talked to my son for a few moments. He now has the love of his life on board and he rightly spent his time with her. I chose the latter, and while waiting for the evening banquet to begin, I discovered that I was the only human life-form on the Internet. I should have buried myself in a good book, but instead, got lost here and felt really alone. Other years I have volunteered to feed the homeless at the Salvation Army. I will NOT spend another holiday alone. Thank you for asking."}, {"response": 44, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Dec  1, 1999 (19:33)", "body": "(sorry I could not put it into words better than I did - but I was truly miserable and there is no way I can think of to describe my feelings...)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Fri, Dec  3, 1999 (16:41)", "body": "Marcia, a couple of days ago you said - Is anyone alive on Earth besides me? Is there really a point to all this? Why? - Sorry, i'm not throwing it back at you :-) but it really rang a bell. It's stange isn't it to sit at a computer, linked to the whole world and yet feel so alone. I guess that's my idea of 'hell' in a way, isolation. I found a graphic a while back which portrayed two desert islands with a guy on each sitting at a computer. Sorry I didn't pick up on this one on thanksgiving or I'd have loved to talk to you!!!!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Dec  3, 1999 (17:28)", "body": "Thanks, Maggie...I really appreciate your kind words. I don't usually get that far \"down\", but I did that day. I will surround myself with interesting things to do for Christmas because it will be another holiday without my son and others I love. However, I am an upbeat person normally, so I will stay out of Philosophy for the rest of 1999 and come back only when I have something of value to contribute. Thanks, all, for your thoughtfulness."}, {"response": 47, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Fri, Dec 10, 1999 (20:07)", "body": "(((((((Marcia))))))) I've been offline for two weeks for surgery -- just got back here tonight. I know that loneliness you speak of, and it's profound; it pushed me to realize that for myself, being lonely at the computer keyboard was a way of running away, into distraction, so I didn't have to walk through my pain. I hope it's not that for you, but if it is, I'm willing to talk about it."}, {"response": 48, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Dec 10, 1999 (20:11)", "body": "(((((((Nan))))))) Welcome back! I was just about to hunt up an email address for you so I could enquire as to your well-being! It is and unfortunately I cannot talk about it here. I know your email works so I will talk to you there."}, {"response": 49, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Dec 15, 1999 (00:36)", "body": "Glad you're back, Nan. Tell us more about what's going on!"}, {"response": 50, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sat, Dec 18, 1999 (17:49)", "body": "Thank you, Paul. What's going on is slow healing and lots of clumping around on crutches (can't bear weight on my left leg until the end of January!) -- and this weekend, trying to finish grading tests and papers so I can turn in fall semester grades by the 23rd."}, {"response": 51, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Dec 18, 1999 (18:40)", "body": "'Tis a familiar lament heard throughout the land. Usually, it is preceeded by student wailing and trying to cram a semester's worth of work into on night."}, {"response": 52, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Dec 20, 1999 (08:37)", "body": "When do you estimate you'll toss the crutches away?"}, {"response": 53, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Dec 28, 1999 (19:45)", "body": "I hope they'll give me a green light for walking by the end of January."}, {"response": 54, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Dec 28, 1999 (19:59)", "body": "My goodness, Dear! That is a long time. Hope they got it right! Take care. It is so good to see you posting in here from time to time. *hugs*"}, {"response": 55, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Dec 29, 1999 (09:23)", "body": "I hope so too, moonbeam. I'm pulling for you to be walking in the new Millenium."}, {"response": 56, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Jan  4, 2000 (22:29)", "body": "thanks, you all! :) i'm really feeling so much better now, it's hard to not cheat and sneak around the house without crutches."}, {"response": 57, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Jan  4, 2000 (23:02)", "body": "Oh, Behave! (I know all about that - high twitch factor in me!) We are delighted you are feeling so well. No ice skaing for a while, though, please! *hugs*"}, {"response": 58, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Jan  5, 2000 (11:33)", "body": "Speaking of ice skating, one of my new roommates at Quail Creek is manager of Austin's Northcross Mall ice skating rink. The other potential roomie, coming by tonight at 7:30, is a lady who is the sports medicine therapist assigned to Major Applewhite, James Brown and took care of Ricky Williams. She's a swim instructor so naturally she's interested in the house with the pool."}, {"response": 59, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Jan  5, 2000 (16:49)", "body": "Terry, do you know how to pick'um or what?! At least now we will not worry about you so much with all that in-house expertise. You work on the building and they work on you...How sweet it is! It's about time something good happened to you this year! philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 15, "subject": "Community", "response_count": 34, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (18:03)", "body": "Have to say I agree with Esther (ooooooh, am I the first person here? Woohoo!) Think that community is not set aside for just those areas around where you physically reside. Community is a group that works together in a way that mutually benefits the whole."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (22:04)", "body": "And speaking of community, where is everybody?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (12:27)", "body": "I think that this community might be a little slow during the Christmas season, but you never know. Sometimes people need to get away from friends and family to go visit those friends and family in cyberspace. I just did my share of Christmas cards -- via snail mail!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (13:59)", "body": "I must say Esther's words put me in mind of another philosopher who said, \"The love you take is equal to the love you make...\" (we thought that was so profound in high school)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (01:09)", "body": "Great philosophy truths just are. They are expressed by people over and over again. It gives me great pleasure to recieve and give back such truths as they come. What I am hoping for here is a community of lovers of wisdom. This is rare to have; must be grown over time like a garden. And, even then the whether or other factors will have much more to do with it than we may care to know."}, {"response": 7, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (20:57)", "body": "seems to have been raining in here lately... more things are growing, and less of those seem to be weeds...*wink*"}, {"response": 8, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Aug 25, 1999 (20:07)", "body": "I finally found evidence that Austin is not in the middle of a vast sandy trackless waste which never sees cool nor rain. I was concerned that your riparian reputation was at risk. Praise be!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (11:07)", "body": "ha-ha!!! When's the last time you were in America, Marcia? Do you ever go back at all/long for the place? ARE you American?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (15:18)", "body": "I am currently in America - the 50th state since 1959. I am born and bred American. I go to the Mainland (continental America) once a year if I can afford to - to visit with that handsome son of mine who lives in California. I think I will not live forever in Hawaii...I am tired of being so far from David and not being able to get anywhere else without expensive and lengthy travel."}, {"response": 11, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep  3, 1999 (02:13)", "body": "Wow! You want to move back? When? And do you only have the one son?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Sep  3, 1999 (08:16)", "body": "My son's in California too, Santa Rosa. He's finishing up college at Sonoma State. Hope to get out there soon. Where's your kid Marcia?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep  3, 1999 (13:20)", "body": "You've got a son, Terry???? Whoopee! After almost 2 years I find this out! Cool!!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Sep  4, 1999 (02:09)", "body": "He lives in Fairfield and works in Martinez - both somewhere between San Francisco and Sacramento. Very close to your son. Our Athletic Director was Basketball coach at Santa Rosa College and fed the Vulcans his best players for years before transferring over here!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Sep  4, 1999 (02:14)", "body": "Terry, we play Sonoma State in Baseball and other sports every year. They are a great group and have such supportive and nice boosters/parents. Yes, one son, and only child. Four days of labor changed my mind about having more. Good thing I had a great kid on the first try!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep  4, 1999 (05:21)", "body": "FOUR DAYS???? How gruelling?? See, that's the one positive thing about having big hips. They popped the first one out in 4 hours, and the second in one and a half. But now I don't want anymore either, and the hips are staying too. Damn it."}, {"response": 17, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Sat, Sep  4, 1999 (06:09)", "body": "FOUR DAYS! It should be a Wide World of Sports Special\" ANNCR: \"Hello, I'm Jim McKay on ABC Sports...Welcome to the 96 Hours of LaMaze...\""}, {"response": 18, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep  4, 1999 (15:53)", "body": "Quick, get the POPcorn!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Sep  7, 1999 (20:01)", "body": "No, you do not want the details. John, I have made men without any of the anatomy involved ache \"there.\" ...and it was actually 105 hours...!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (02:17)", "body": "Jesus!! How can a person SURVIVE That???"}, {"response": 21, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (08:38)", "body": "Did this conversation spark up on Labor Day or what? Shey's a great athlete, he's about 6-5 now and he can demolish me on the basketball court. Though the only video I have of him playing was when he was about 5-10. He went to Santa Rosa JC for his first couple of years."}, {"response": 22, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (11:04)", "body": "And how old is your son? I don't make nearly enough photos or videos of my kids either. I usually remember it if I wake up in the middle of the night."}, {"response": 23, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (15:46)", "body": "22."}, {"response": 24, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (15:33)", "body": "Terry, I cannot believe it...Our Athletic Director, Bill Trumbo, used to be the Basketball coach for Santa Rosa, and fed out program at UHHilo with their best players. How neat! Any pics of Shey to put in the gallery that are current? (No baby pictures...!) Cannot imagine how anyone gets to be 6'5\"...must be like feeding the bottomless pit! We did have a Volleyball player visiting last weekend who was a very pretty and co-ordinated 6'3\" and John sized her up against my 5'6\" frame...that is ^tall^.... .!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (00:54)", "body": "How big is 6'5 in meters? Over 2, huh? That's TALLLLLLL!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (01:00)", "body": "1.58 meters"}, {"response": 27, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (10:26)", "body": "He'll might hit 2 meters."}, {"response": 28, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (13:11)", "body": "He's a BABE! He looks quite alot like you, Terry! Not that we've ever seen your face under that old beard of yours. But that's how I imagine you must look. Tell him to come to the spring."}, {"response": 29, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (13:12)", "body": "Marcia, are YOU 1,58m? That's so cute!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Sep 11, 1999 (17:00)", "body": "Great looking son, Terry. Thanks for sharing. I am a mere (by my conversion calculator from Radio Shack)1.67M, so this thing is broken since it insists that 6'5\" in Metric is still 1.58M and I am 5'6\"...No, did it another way and 2 M is 6.5616 feet...(now it says I am 1.76M... needs new batteries I think!)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (01:50)", "body": "God, just his head and shoulders shot is 6'5\" here! We're all writing around him. He dominates the page of Community as the colossus bestrode the harbor at Rhodes. (Sorry, I was trying out my Homeric hyperbole for possible future heroic couplet...)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (03:35)", "body": "And did it work? \ufffdgrin\ufffd"}, {"response": 33, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (18:45)", "body": "Can you imagine someone that tall who is attached all the way down?! The ones we get, the brains are so far from their feet they have trouble just walking!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (04:38)", "body": "ha-ha!!! Though some people have used Clinton as an example of the fact that male brains are locate about halfway down!"}, {"response": 35, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Sat, Jan 20, 2001 (11:38)", "body": "And there goes Clinton down Pennsylvania Avenue in his limo with Chelsea and Senator Clinton. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 16, "subject": "Wittgenstein", "response_count": 13, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (23:55)", "body": "Never heard of 'im."}, {"response": 2, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Jan  3, 1998 (02:51)", "body": "ain't that what they call them steroid chewin' russky skaters?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (13:29)", "body": "No I sure have not. But from your excert Americ, he sounds like he did not organize his toughts as he wrote. It sounds like he wrote his book as a personal journal."}, {"response": 4, "author": "meganb", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (13:29)", "body": "Well, I've made it into the conference, but I've never heard of Wittgenstein."}, {"response": 6, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Thu, Jan 29, 1998 (17:06)", "body": "Yes!!!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Jan 29, 1998 (19:55)", "body": "Don't worry Megan, think Americ is the only one who really knows who this dude is! Welcome, and take a look around the place."}, {"response": 8, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan 29, 1998 (23:12)", "body": "*sigh* this submiting and waiting thing is wearing me out... prefer telnet!"}, {"response": 10, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan 29, 1998 (23:31)", "body": "still here... what's on your mind? *concerned wrinkle of brow*"}, {"response": 12, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (02:57)", "body": "and it gives me a headache! *smile*"}, {"response": 13, "author": "mhaverila", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (02:57)", "body": "Here is what I found from Wittegenstein (Source Grolier) for the benefit of those who have never heard from Wittgenstein. Ludwig Josef Johann Wittgenstein, b. Vienna, Apr. 26, 1889, d. Apr. 29, 1951, was one of the most original and influential philosophers of the 20th century. Born into a wealthy and cultured Austrian family, Wittgenstein received most of his early education at home before studying engineering. Having become interested in the foundations of mathematics, Wittgenstein began (1912) to study with Bertrand Russell at Cambridge. His early work led to the writing of the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1921). Havin given away a large inheritance, Wittgenstein taught elementary school from 1920 to 1926 in rural Austria and subsequently served as gardener in a monastery near Vienna. In 1929, Wittgenstein returned to Cambridge, and in 1939 he was appointed to the chair in philosophy formerly held by G. E. Moore. Wittgenstein wrote continually, and lecture notes, as well as dictated manuscripts, circulated widely, although often against his wishes. The most important of these dictations have been published as The Blue nd Brown Books: Preliminary Studies for the \"Philosophical Investigations\" (2d ed., 1969). After his death Wittgenstein's executors published the most important of his later writings, the Philosophical Investigations (1953), and almost a dozen other volumes. In the Tractatus, Wittgenstein claimed that the problems of philosophy arise when \"the logic of our language is misunderstood.\" He also claimed to have given \"on all essential points, the final solution of the problems.\" Wittgenstein thought he had provided this solution by analyzing the relation of language to the world, showing the boundaries of what can intelligibly be said or thought. Central to his analysis is a theory of meaning, usually referred to as the picture theory. The picture theory states t at simple objects exist, out of which complex ones are constructed. The relations of these objects to one another are represented, or pictured, in language, and only what can be so pictured can be stated intelligibly. The nature of the picturing relationship cannot be stated; because it is not a fact or an object, it can only be shown. Even though the relation cannot be articulated, it is possible to see it, and it must hold if language is to represent the way the world is. For Wittgenstein, therefore, th traditional problems of philosophy are not solved, but rather dissolved, because they arise from a failure to understand the picturing relations; consequently, the problems ask for answers to questions that are nonsensical. Once the nature of meaning is grasped, the problems cease to exist. This view of philosophy and its problems was influential from the start. His conclusions seemed to provide a method whereby many philosophical theories--notably those related to metaphysics and most of ethics--could be discarded as nonsense. Although the Tractatus retained considerable influence in LOGICAL POSITIVISM, it was Wittgenstein himself, in his later philosophy, who eventually produced the most devastating critique of his early work. He still viewed philosophical problems as arising in some way from confusion about language, and he still saw his work as a means of dissolving these problems. In the Tractatus, however, Wittgenstein had thought of language primarily as giving and manipulating the names of given objects. In his later wor he considered this inadequate, because naming can only take place in the context of a developed language, for which there already exist rules for picking out objects, properly using names, and properly carrying out operations. The criteria for these activities, in turn, are to be found not in logic but in the actual practice of a language-using group. Thus, while his early philosophy equates meaning with representing, or picturing, the later philosophy sees meaning in terms of doing, of participating in hat he calls a \"language game.\" Wittgenstein held that any general theory of meaning would be inadequate to dispel philosophical perplexity and that the way to escape the bewitchment of the mind by language is to examine in detail how the language in question is used in the particular language game in which it is found. With his insights on language and meaning, Wittgenstein shed new light on a variety of problems, notably skepticism and the problem of other minds. His work, however, has been extended by other thinkers into all areas of philosophy."}, {"response": 14, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (02:57)", "body": "Ok, Ok, sheesh, coulda just given me a book title or somethin'!! (but thanks anyway)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (16:05)", "body": "Yeah, then we can go to the library and check out the Cliff Notes!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (14:26)", "body": "Some years ago, I was told by a philosopher from Hunter College in NYC that Wittgenstein contained the next 1000 years in him. I have read the Tractatus and a lot of logical positivism in my early years. I also read a lot of Bertand Russell and mathematical logic. I was much into this stuff. Later, I became interested in Hiedegger and the general question of being. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 17, "subject": "Reciprocity", "response_count": 22, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Jan 31, 1998 (15:00)", "body": "When necessary, where possible, and because it's the right thing to do. We're living in a society here!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Jan 31, 1998 (15:40)", "body": "(that's only a rumor)"}, {"response": 3, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Jan 31, 1998 (15:56)", "body": "But if enough of us repeat it, it's true."}, {"response": 4, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Jan 31, 1998 (16:07)", "body": "i know... i was only kidding, in my own feeble-minded way... yet... cannot help but be disappointed by the contradiction between civilization as it is advertised, and how it actually applies to humans..."}, {"response": 5, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Jan 31, 1998 (16:30)", "body": "Blame Madison Avenue..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Jan 31, 1998 (17:36)", "body": "(\"the fault, dear brutus, lies not in our stars\"...etc...) fundamental design flaws, i think..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (14:30)", "body": "We become too impatient with ourselves. *Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.* It is a good idea. But by the time you have to invoke such a rule we are already in trouble -- and may not get ourselves out of it until things become really bad."}, {"response": 8, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (14:58)", "body": "(you mean this isn't really bad?)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (17:47)", "body": "Not to cast a negative slant but I think it is an easier catchall to say, \"Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you.\" Keeps better perspective IMO."}, {"response": 10, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (21:13)", "body": "(makes sense to me... but that hardly augurs well...)"}, {"response": 11, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (13:58)", "body": "To me too, but sometimes I just think, oh, confound it all! There's just too much selfishness around for people to . . . well, reciprocate! Ha-Ha, that sounds like a swear word. I'll remember it when I get into a fight with someone . . . 'Oh, go Reciprocate yourself in hell!'"}, {"response": 12, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (16:45)", "body": "actually, that's quite a favorite hobbie of mine..."}, {"response": 13, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (00:32)", "body": "I'm not so sure . . . Reciprocity usually involves more than one person . . . Sorry, you asked for it - I could not resist!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "LazyCat", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (10:10)", "body": "hey..im Cat"}, {"response": 15, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (10:17)", "body": "Good Morning, Cat!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (13:11)", "body": "Hi, Cat! Ya feelin' lazy today?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:18)", "body": "Hi cat!"}, {"response": 18, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (05:14)", "body": "I think she must be asleep. Or reciprocating . . ."}, {"response": 19, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (21:46)", "body": "reciprocity is just another word for karma"}, {"response": 20, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:30)", "body": "positions included?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:58)", "body": "Not yoga, karma!! Maybe I have the wrong meaning for the word, It's possible."}, {"response": 22, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (07:41)", "body": "You don't - I was being wicked, that's all. I'll try and be better now. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 18, "subject": "The point of no return", "response_count": 66, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Jan 31, 1998 (00:14)", "body": "\"something has spoken to me in the night, burning the tapers of the waning year... something has spoken in the night, and told me i must die, i know not where... saying: to lose the earth you know, for greater knowing; to lose the life you have, for greater life; to lose the friends you loved, for greater loving; to find a land more kind than home, more large than earth- -whereupon the pillars of this earth are founded... towards which the concience of this world is tending- a wind is rising, and the rivers flow.\" (thomas wolfe) no. i don't think there is any way back... or any way to return... think it's just on to something else... the next thing, or whatever... and so better it is to be \"web\" than \"rock\"... though we really can't control that, can we? \"we are what we are\"... (paraphrasing popeye)..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Apr  9, 1998 (09:09)", "body": "No, I know what the point of remembering is... so you have something to forget. did you nix the counseling idea and opt for 'exquisite pain' instead?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Apr 20, 1998 (00:22)", "body": "not necessarily... he's just been out o town on businesss lately..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (03:35)", "body": "I find this a really scary topic. It can drive me nuts when I start thinking: tomorrow when I wake up, there will be no turning back today - it is forever gone. I find letting go of time, people, events very hard. I still cry myself to sleep about my first boyfriend in kindergarten. *ha-ha*"}, {"response": 7, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (04:56)", "body": "The point of no return turns into the desire to return, right? It's interesting how language plays the mind. To say to myself that something can't be because it's gone, is maybe a way to make sure it stays on. So if I want to have that feeling with so-and-so again, and I tell myself that that feeling or experience or situation or person is gone, that it can only remain a memory, wouldn't that prevent me from directly experiencing the longing? It becomes silly to long for something that's gone. So I stop trying and move on to something else in my life. Doesn't that prevent me from directly experiencing the longing? Longing is a problem. It's good to get to the cause. If we push the longing away, we strengthen the cause. While the longing is happening, that's the time to see what it really is. What is it's nature? What brought it into being? Listen in for several minutes. Watch it carefully. What takes place? The longing becomes the real. It's in the present, very alive. Not a memory yet. It's important to understand why the longing is....what's really going on there. If we feel we truly don't know, that's the perfect place to start, because then we can begin to find out with fresh curiosity.....we can enter into what's behind the longing.....we can get into contact with it....feel our way in....sense what's there. Because the longing is what's happening, we are in touch with our self, our life.....we're learning.....if we keep it simple and direct and near."}, {"response": 8, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (08:50)", "body": "Hello, Mr. Leplep le Plep. Are you new here? If you are, then, hi. My name is Ri\ufffdtte. You are right. Longing can be a problem. And it can be unpleasant at times as well. Very much experiencing that at the moment - not even trying to deny that. A sense of longing for old friends, sense of longing for my home, the friends I used to know there, and know still, but with whom I can't be, because my home is on another continent altogether. Just that time of the year I suppose. How I'd love to be there right now, sitting in the warm African sun by the beach, painting the reflections and co ours while listening to the stillness , or walking through the loud, lively streets full of laughter, or browsing through the craft markets with a good friend, oh, just that seven o'clock feeling at night with the sun setting in warm vivid oranges and yellows and pinks, having a beer in my favourite caf\ufffd with my favourite people - that's when I LONG. And when that happens it strikes me just how FINAL the decisions we continually make for our lives are. You can't always just try things out first. Somet mes you have to say a defenite yes or no, and it changes absolutely everything. It frightens me that no matter how I long, it is and will remain a memory, nothing more. I might experience the old feelings for the few short weeks I spend down there every year, but it will always remain a luxury, something out of the ordinary in my all too ordinary existence, and when I'm there I constantly have this nagging feeling, this dreading of returning to the life I have chosen to live. Not because it is a horrib e and unhappy life - it is just so very far away. But that's the thing about longing, isn't it? It goes on for LONG. And sometimes forever."}, {"response": 9, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (12:34)", "body": "sometimes..."}, {"response": 10, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (12:55)", "body": "Do you long for something?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (13:19)", "body": "depends upon how depressed I is"}, {"response": 12, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (13:20)", "body": "actually, as has been pointed out to me recently, not sure if it's depression or self-pity...oh, well, something to think about at least..."}, {"response": 13, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (13:24)", "body": "You don't strike me as either. Just a bit frustrated perhaps. But then again, I'm not a particularly good judge of character, so I'm probably in no position to give that opinion."}, {"response": 14, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (19:34)", "body": "i'm not sure if there's a difference. depression and self-pity go hand in hand. and it's not a good combination."}, {"response": 15, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (20:29)", "body": "well, they don't, technically, medicate self-pity..."}, {"response": 16, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (20:30)", "body": "and I'm sure that one can pity oneself without being clinically depressed..."}, {"response": 17, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (01:05)", "body": "I don't think depression and self-pity necessarily go hand in hand. I usually start hating myself when I get depressed. And I pity myself when I'm tired or feeling hurt. Well, it's probably different for different people. Main thing is to keep fighting."}, {"response": 18, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (14:23)", "body": "I don't agree that 'longing' is a problem. To long for something certainly implies that 'something' is missing but longing also implies that thought and want and caring and desire abound in the longing individual. To actually long for something (or someone) isn't painful. When longing becomes overwhelming, I think the verb then changes to pining, wallowing or desiring in utter desperation... and desperation can certainly be a painful problem. When I finally arrive with something, someone or somewhere, the preceeding longing makes the arrival so much sweeter. ... depression and self-pity can be world's apart or siamese twins..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (16:14)", "body": "You make sense today, Stacey! I'll remember that bit about the longing - sounds so positive. That's what the spring is so good for - there are always new perspectives to be seen and new ideas to be considered. I love it."}, {"response": 20, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (19:26)", "body": "<You make sense today, Stacey! as opposed to when she doesn't?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (19:31)", "body": "I think you better find some cover, Mike."}, {"response": 22, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (01:12)", "body": "!BOOH! Did that frighten him enough?"}, {"response": 23, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (14:32)", "body": "actually I took it as... I made sense to Riette yesterday and some days."}, {"response": 24, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (14:36)", "body": "I don't. (sorry 'bout the breakup there... lost my UNIX connection"}, {"response": 25, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (00:45)", "body": "Yeah, you made good sense yesterday, and you have made good sense often in the past . . .it's just that sometimes you . . . didn't!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (14:25)", "body": "we all have our 'moments'"}, {"response": 27, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (15:08)", "body": "ha-ha! You are lucky to have them more often than not."}, {"response": 28, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (20:56)", "body": "always made sense to me.."}, {"response": 29, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (22:52)", "body": "None of this makes any sense to me..."}, {"response": 30, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (00:32)", "body": "not even nonsense?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (01:07)", "body": "Nonsense - now there's something we can ALL make! Hail nonsense!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:13)", "body": "didn't intend to confuse everyone by having a lucid moment... i'll be more careful next time!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:34)", "body": "You only confused those of us who have so few lucid moments ourselves....."}, {"response": 34, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:38)", "body": "how's the finger today?"}, {"response": 35, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:41)", "body": "It happened today!! And the finger is not - it merely used to be."}, {"response": 36, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:53)", "body": "you cut it off?????"}, {"response": 37, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (16:50)", "body": "almost It was one of these vegetable cutters that you work by hitting it and the blades chop down. Only the blades are so sharp, I didn't feel a thing - until Isa started screaming hysterically, and I finally spotted the bits of finger mixed with the green peppers. So now I have a ripped off toe nail, a broken arm and a savaged finger - feel like Mr. Bean. What a crappy day."}, {"response": 38, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (18:06)", "body": "UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! (puke, spew, vomit) sorry, Riette, that was truly a vivid visual."}, {"response": 39, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (20:38)", "body": "wow, riette, sounds nasty. i hope you are feeling better soon!"}, {"response": 40, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (00:46)", "body": "Thanks, Ray. I feel pain this morning, but, hey, it's weekend. And that's great! How are you? ha-ha, Stacey! Yours was hilariously visual too!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (19:44)", "body": "Topic 18 of 30 [philosophy]: The point of no return i think i'm there. here."}, {"response": 42, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (00:39)", "body": "Inevitably."}, {"response": 43, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (21:50)", "body": "Question is where here is the here that I am, HERE???"}, {"response": 44, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:30)", "body": "No, over there, I belive!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:59)", "body": "Ah. Thank you for clarifying that, Riette."}, {"response": 46, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (07:42)", "body": "My pleasure, sir! The point of no return is when you realize you musn't, but you do it anyway. That, by the way, is my favourite point in the world."}, {"response": 47, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:58)", "body": "Mine too, Riette. Except that I define it a little differently. It's the point at which you lose the ability to change the outcome, and you just have to go along for the ride."}, {"response": 48, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:36)", "body": "That sounds like fate though! Perhaps the point of no return is where fate begins."}, {"response": 49, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:53)", "body": "Oh no, I did not mean fate. The best way to illustrate is with a big truck. When you start to slide, and the trailer passes 15 degrees from straight. That is the point of no return. You can try to get the truck straight again, but usually it won't happen until you get stopped. so you just kick back and enjoy the ride."}, {"response": 50, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "And thus let fate take over..."}, {"response": 51, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (09:52)", "body": "The truck's name is Fate? I know, alotta trucks can have the same name."}, {"response": 52, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (11:16)", "body": "Maybe, I don't know. But I like the idea of it."}, {"response": 53, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (11:32)", "body": "Good Choice!!"}, {"response": 54, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (06:35)", "body": "And we'll start our journey to Mexico at the point of no return in your fateful truck, and see where we end up!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (21:42)", "body": "Riette, I Like that attitude. I agree, let's go for it!!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (01:31)", "body": "All the way!"}, {"response": 57, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (01:34)", "body": "Now THAT attitude, Riette, I REALLY like."}, {"response": 58, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (15:38)", "body": "I would never have guessed - never in a million YEARS! I am so sorry that I have to go now, but I must. But check your e-mail in a little while from now. Sweet dreams."}, {"response": 59, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (15:56)", "body": "Riette, I'm sorry that you have to go now too. Sweet dreams back to you."}, {"response": 60, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (00:59)", "body": "They were."}, {"response": 61, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (01:17)", "body": "I'm Glad Riette. Now, what did you dream about?"}, {"response": 62, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (15:08)", "body": "Sasquatsch! I don't know how to write his name, but he was the big hairy guy in the 'Six Million Dollar Man'. He was really big, because you know how they always say that size doesn't matter, but in fact that's all women ever look at? So it had to be Sasquatsch. And he wasn't so hairy all over, but his chest was like PADDED with hair under his t-shirt - yeah, he wore a t-shirt!!! And the t-shirt looked just like a tuxedo - I had to get really close before I realized it was only a t-shirt. It was a v ry strange dream, but sort of sexy too - difficult to describe. I hope I don't sound too disturbed!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (15:12)", "body": "It sounds like a fairly detailed description to me , Riette, Just how close did you say that you got?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "Let's put it this way: it was GOOD! ha-ha! I'm so embarrassed at dreaming such things!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:03)", "body": "Well, Riette, That was pretty close, I have to admit."}, {"response": 66, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:03)", "body": "Don't you ever have dreams like that?"}, {"response": 67, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:03)", "body": "I try not to, Riette, because of what happens when I do."}, {"response": 68, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (12:46)", "body": "William started this with the questions: Is it better to turn back when you see it? Can you know as you cross it? Is there really no way to return? Should there be a way back? As far as I can say, there never is a back, as every ahead is always a bit different. But the only thing, that's really a problem - in my opinion - is indecisiveness. Question, decide, act. Do not let circumstances paralyse you. It is better to plow ahead and be wrong and have to take a detour, or patch things up, or go down in full glory, than to be mired with not being able to choose and make your mind up and select the possibly best option. There are not only options, there are also windows of opportunities. Within these time frames, you can act, and your actions have certain probabilities to bring certain effects. As these windows close, success chances diminish, too. When it is closed, indecisiveness has decided for you, not you for yourself (admittedly, not acting is a decision, too, - I mean not only not acting, but also not even wanting to not-act.) You must never become a victim of circumstance like this. And if you have been proven wrong, try something else. Always try, never give up yourself. You may not get what you originally wanted, but you have better chances to get something than if you were passive and contemplative. I personally find trying things much more entertaining, than just dreaming about trying. I have to realise that some things, I can only dream about (like taking my boat to water...), because others are more urgent. So, I do one and dream about the other, ok. But I don't sit there, stare at the beached wale, and contemplate my back luck, and be drained of precious time... philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 19, "subject": "Vent At Will (Enter At Own Risk!)", "response_count": 214, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:27)", "body": "ARGH!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:36)", "body": "damn! (i'm sorry, i just wasn't prepared for that...)"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:37)", "body": "hey, i did warn ya, didn't i?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:41)", "body": "good, i done pissed off everybody. great. what a wonderful day. amazing what a little bit of moody can do."}, {"response": 5, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:45)", "body": "i ain't pissed off... just think it best to leave you be if that's what you need... do have to be somewhere in a few minutes... will be back around 9, 9:30... and i'll check in, then... if you wanta talk or cuss at me or anything..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:47)", "body": "(and i actually think fury is a very attractive quality... VERY... which is a good thing, 'cause i see so much of it...)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:50)", "body": "how much of it do you cause? (have you been to the planet? someone is in good spirits)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:51)", "body": "oh, and my chat room is available if anybody wants to vent. don't know how to link it but here's the address: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/7059 click on chat, login, and there you are."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (19:52)", "body": "hey! it did it by itself, like, coooooool"}, {"response": 10, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:32)", "body": "(yeah, she's in good spirits... i'm such a coward...) you know my \"chat\" thing... not sure i could figger it out, anyway... i'll hang around here for a bit... if i don't hear from you, well, hope you're feeling better..."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:38)", "body": "am here"}, {"response": 12, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:42)", "body": "so, you doing any better?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:44)", "body": "taking out my frustration on the system. geocities is being a butt tonight, keeps locking me up. how're you doin?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:47)", "body": "tolerable... (you really should watch your language, y'know...)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:48)", "body": "sorry, ass?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:53)", "body": "hey, you have any sublime? (usually helps me when i'm pissed off... esp. \"santaria\"... just imagine poppin' that cap in sancho's punk ass...)"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:54)", "body": "no sublime. 'sides, folks are sleeping and the computer is in the same place. (in fact, the sleeping one really made my day)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:57)", "body": "aha... well, you could always bludgeon him to death... (make it look like he just fell on the floor, or something... at an awkward angle, y'know...)"}, {"response": 19, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (21:59)", "body": "yeah, and then be put to sleep like myself. No thank you. (he just doesn't hear me, you know?)"}, {"response": 20, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:00)", "body": "doh! that made no sense. and then be put to sleep PERIOD"}, {"response": 21, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:02)", "body": "(perhaps he was right-i shouldn't spend so much time on the computer-)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:04)", "body": "uhh, yer like referring to the \"poppied sleep\"? (listening to bradley and sublime, for ya...)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:05)", "body": "huh?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:07)", "body": "ah, tell 'im to go soak his head... (trying to get with the spirit, elke-speak wise...) then again, you could tell 'im you got something for his (punk ass)..."}, {"response": 25, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:08)", "body": "huh?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:09)", "body": "right! tried that, but he's magic with words or somethin'. everything ends up being on my head (and if he reads this, he'll blow)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:15)", "body": "uh, okay... (have no idea what you mean...sorry)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:17)", "body": "called twisting things, got it?"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:20)", "body": "get kinda rebellious when people get bossy. (but then i feel bad afterwards). am getting sleepy, though.."}, {"response": 30, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:22)", "body": "yes'm... (that sent chills down my spine)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:23)", "body": "what i said? you're silly. (ooooo, the affect i have on you *wink*) take care of wer, wouldja? am worried about him........."}, {"response": 32, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:25)", "body": "yeah, i am too..."}, {"response": 33, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:27)", "body": "he's probably really annoyed at me fer buggin' him so much. (gotta go, thanks for helping lighten some of my mood *hug*)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:30)", "body": "why, shurrr... any time, madame..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:32)", "body": "'night (yer sure feelin' fine)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:38)", "body": "well, shucks, ma'am... kind of you to say (but you really oughta keep yer hands to yerself... bein' a married woman an' all)..."}, {"response": 37, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (22:39)", "body": "oh, yeah... g'night..."}, {"response": 38, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (08:29)", "body": "wolf... i got one of those too. magic with words everything is miraculously MY fault happened again last night... seems to happen more and more most times i chalk it up to work stress last night he was just being a pain in the ass makes me sad when my best friend, lover, confidant is my worst enemy hate walking on eggshells, so i just throw it back at the boiling point, i'm okay with the anger an hour later, i just want to get past everything wasted time. good idea for a topic i think I'll use it frequently. *teary eyed*"}, {"response": 41, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (15:13)", "body": "nah, it won't help. but thanks for the offer. best thing about this classroom... they make themselves your ONLY reality for seven hours a day. hectic but sometimes a nice break from my own world."}, {"response": 42, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (15:27)", "body": "The computer is a good escape, too."}, {"response": 43, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (17:06)", "body": "*smile* yes, it is."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (18:41)", "body": "yes it is! nice to find other folks (even though faceless) to just sit down and blab with. Stacey, does yours do this, say one thing and act out another?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (11:08)", "body": "yep. that one of the things he IS consistent about!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (16:57)", "body": "Mine too, and denies all of it. Finally got him to at least admit that whatever he did wasn't what he meant and apologize! (amazing huh?)"}, {"response": 47, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (17:03)", "body": "congratulations!!! tonight I have only one request thank he say thank you for fixing and hosting a dinner for his parents (an unsolicited thank you) my odds, based on past experiences, are not good."}, {"response": 48, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (18:11)", "body": "But I bet you'd have heard about it if you'd served them chef boyardee or mac & cheese...."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (20:30)", "body": "No joke! And I think mine only says sorry out of fear *laugh* BUT, he did say thank you for giving birth to his two children (like I had a choice!) *giggle*"}, {"response": 50, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (21:35)", "body": "(would think dinner for the parents would occasion the franco-american ravioli...)"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (21:56)", "body": "supreme, no less *grin*"}, {"response": 52, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (22:38)", "body": "of course (superiori... let's be accurate in our phraseology, shall we?)... and the mogendavid wine... yeah, and real (paper) napkins.... nothing's too good for the (frigging) in-laws... (still listening to velvet underground... \"afterhours\"... have always liked that song... but who is the girl singing it? is that nico? i can't tell...)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (12:44)", "body": "dinner was: antipasta baked stuffed shells garlic cheese fritatta blueberry/peach cobbler his parents are great and all went well (for the most part)"}, {"response": 54, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (15:05)", "body": "(actually, franco-american does sort of qualify as anti-pasta, when you really think about it... and lucklily, i do make time to think about these things...) oh, and didn't mean to impart my innate inlaw-antipathy to you... just teasing, really..."}, {"response": 55, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (17:32)", "body": "cute with the anti-pasta however, I think the pasta is the only legitimate ingredient in the can! The meat, sauce and cheeses are all extrememly questionalble"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (18:48)", "body": "sometimes i forget who i'm talkin' to when trying to vent with my sign. other. not good with conflicts, so i turn into that little girl afraid of her daddy. doesn't help when you have a mother hen mentality and want to fix everything."}, {"response": 57, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:13)", "body": "hmmmm..."}, {"response": 58, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:33)", "body": "hmmmmmm......she says, rubbing her chin"}, {"response": 59, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:35)", "body": "hey, what're you hiding behind your back?"}, {"response": 60, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:36)", "body": "aw, it's nuthin'"}, {"response": 61, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:45)", "body": "(deja vu all over again)"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:53)", "body": "so how're things? you get your dilemma fixed?"}, {"response": 63, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:58)", "body": "refresh my memory?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:00)", "body": "the one and the one you thought was......"}, {"response": 65, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:08)", "body": "hey, gotta go. talk to you later?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:08)", "body": "oh... status quo... (i'm still gutless... that one situation may be getting out of hand)... other situation well in hand (strictly speaking)... has been another development... sorta a new wrinkle, if you will... i let my ex-wife move back in... (wanta tell my girlfriend for me?)"}, {"response": 67, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:09)", "body": "no, that's your mess. why d'ya do it?"}, {"response": 68, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:09)", "body": "yep... i'll probably be here most of the night... (hiding in my office)"}, {"response": 69, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:11)", "body": "probably not gonna be back tonight (you chicken!) will you be around tomorrow?"}, {"response": 70, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:12)", "body": "she's having some problems... needed help... didn't seem like i really had a choice... (sure that explanation won't go over real well, though)"}, {"response": 71, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:13)", "body": "bet it cramps your lifestyle"}, {"response": 72, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:16)", "body": "maybe... supposed to go out... perhaps my date will have a change of heart, though (and any plans of a cozy evening at my home are probably out of the question)... depends on type/severity of the bloodletting..."}, {"response": 73, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:17)", "body": "okee dokee. 'night"}, {"response": 74, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:19)", "body": "it really isn't that big a deal, to me... we didn't have a hell of a lot to talk about when we were married... certainly don't now... only thing that bothers me is other implications (disfigurement, etc...)"}, {"response": 75, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (20:20)", "body": "g'night..."}, {"response": 76, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Feb  8, 1998 (01:35)", "body": "(the blooding has begun...)"}, {"response": 77, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Feb  8, 1998 (21:11)", "body": "hey nick... maybe you should be keeping some of those well wishes for yourself! *smile*"}, {"response": 78, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Feb  8, 1998 (22:45)", "body": "aw, i'll be okay... she's pretty mad, but she'll forgive me...('least, they always have, so far)... seriously, i could like do a lecture series on the subject... and i really haven't done anything wrong (and you may not believe this, but sometimes that's not the case)... i understand the way she feels, but she's just gonna have to deal with it..."}, {"response": 79, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Feb  9, 1998 (19:05)", "body": "yeah! well, the house appraiser came by today, can't tell us anything, guess he's gotta punch in everything he found into that magical \"what's your house worth today\" program. the bank is driving me nuts. am waiting for them to ask for blood and urine samples (will definately tell you guys if they do and promptly take my business elsewhere) You know what burns my butt? (well, aside from that) I make up simple, easy to read, how-to cheat sheets for my office. As we get so many new people in and out of there, I figured this could help us all out. Well, the part that bites is that people don't keep the darned things and then at the last minute, they holler, how do we do this again? Can't stand blatant disorganization. (Organized chaos is another thing entirely)."}, {"response": 80, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Feb  9, 1998 (19:05)", "body": "UGH!!! (just had to add that as an afterthought)"}, {"response": 81, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Feb  9, 1998 (20:08)", "body": "House? Bank? Blood & urine? What's going on down there, wolf??"}, {"response": 82, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Feb  9, 1998 (20:18)", "body": "called refinancing for a lower %. *grin*"}, {"response": 83, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Feb  9, 1998 (20:28)", "body": "Good luck at closing! (as if it was so much fun the first time around) Do you have to pay points in Louisiana?"}, {"response": 84, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb 10, 1998 (17:21)", "body": "think so, but all of that will be rolled into the loan. kinda felt like somebody else was moving in with all the measuring and stuff (by the appraiser). then you fill red in the face because of all the projects that are only half done to improve the resale value. closing the first time was weird. 50 sheets of paper and each one required our signatures. hopefully we dropped off the last of the paperwork req'd today....."}, {"response": 85, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb 13, 1998 (20:02)", "body": "OK, I GOT MY CAR BACK!!! Sorry for shouting, but you don't know what a happy girl I am!! Freedom, Independence, woohoo. Tomorrow is the first of two Mardis Gras parades here. We will be camping out on the street all day long with tons of kids (whose parents never pay attention to what they're doing, so guess what Wolf gets to do) Yup, fun fun. Fun doesn't start until parade time but you hafta sit there all day just to keep the spot. Am not looking forward to it but it's such a blast for the kids."}, {"response": 86, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Feb 13, 1998 (20:33)", "body": "Bonne Fete, Wolf!"}, {"response": 87, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Mar 11, 1998 (19:03)", "body": "well, been a while since anyone has visited this topic. but i needs ta vent and no one is around (at least the ones i need to speak to). somehow, i got dragged into the middle of some really weird crap and.....hmmmm, dunno. just want to cry and shout and laugh and stuff....maybe i oughta get a beer? nah, am out of it as it is....this person involved is going off the deep end and spouting threats and stuff at the wrong people. nothin' major so y'all don't worry. the person i need to talk to won't talk back because they like to avoid difficult subjects. what i really need to do is organize my thoughts and maybe this is part of the process. sorry for blabbing to no end (but this is my topic, huh?)"}, {"response": 89, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Mar 11, 1998 (22:25)", "body": "oh wer, am I glad to see you! *peck*"}, {"response": 91, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Mar 11, 1998 (22:30)", "body": "yeah, i know.....you got some time?"}, {"response": 93, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Mar 12, 1998 (01:40)", "body": "(aaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!) (really really sorry, elke... me and my brilliant (frigging) ideas... thought i could trot out the old weaver thing, and maybe get off the hook... didn't mean to start any of THIS... even paula's pissed at me... SHEESH! what the hell have i done?!?!?!)"}, {"response": 94, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Mar 12, 1998 (09:00)", "body": "no, no, whatever the hell has gotten into everybody has been there awhile. wanna tell me how i got dragged into it?"}, {"response": 95, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Mar 12, 1998 (10:22)", "body": "i don't know..."}, {"response": 96, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Mar 12, 1998 (15:39)", "body": "don't know if you wanna tell me? look, i'm going out of town for a month, so answer me before i go (leave sat, early early)"}, {"response": 97, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Mar 13, 1998 (00:07)", "body": "no, i really don't know... she really threatening you? she's written me some pretty interesting mail, but no threats, though... (and for the record, i DO NOT avoid difficult subjects... necessarily)... (the bloom is rapidly fading from this rose, though... did feel really crappy about it... now just feeling tired of it) hope you have a good trip..."}, {"response": 98, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Mar 13, 1998 (08:41)", "body": "which rose? btw: did you know she's a witch?"}, {"response": 100, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Mar 13, 1998 (11:20)", "body": "(does this mean i can look forward to slurping flies and- worse yet- budweiser?)"}, {"response": 101, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Mar 13, 1998 (12:42)", "body": "i dunno, but she used it like a threat to you.....i wanted to say \"and???\" don't do the witch thing here, sometimes the b version.... y'all, am not in happy spirits today....excited about my trip to the beach, but other than that......(yes, the beach, am going to norfolk, staying at a place on the beach, watch a hurricane move in or something--oh, not a vacation, work is sending me)"}, {"response": 102, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Mar 13, 1998 (17:43)", "body": "have a great trip wolf, sounds like a break will do you good. Don't know what's going on (previous posts) but I hope it resolves soon, as it doesn't sound the least bit fun. My vent: some people shouldn't be allowed to have children one of my students came in a told me no one came home last night... no mom, no boyfriend, no adult. He made himself dinner and put himself to bed. When the cops began \"pounding\" on the door late at night, he didn't get it. In the morning he got himself up and dressed and on the school bus. And know I find out (when social services shows up) that his mom was arrested and he is in a Family Crisis center until who-knows-when. This women has severely f***ed up her life and now she is working hard to screw up the lives of her children. I stomp my feet and say, \"I will not let this happen. He will not slip througfh the cracks.\" But what in the hell can I do. I've called the social worker assigned to the case three times and spoke wiim once. He was supposed to call me \"right back\" and let me know if I could see him (my student) this weekend at the Crisis Center but... as usual with DDSS, I haven't heard anything yet. Adults can really fuck up a child's life and that pisses me off to no end."}, {"response": 103, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Mar 13, 1998 (20:16)", "body": "hear! hear! (hope things work out for this little man)"}, {"response": 105, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Mar 14, 1998 (16:13)", "body": "I'm glad you have the consciousness to pursue this. That kid deserves much better. When does his mom get out of the slammer?"}, {"response": 106, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Mar 15, 1998 (15:21)", "body": "That kind of stuff is so heart-breaking...I'm getting misty just thinking about it, please keep us posted."}, {"response": 107, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Mar 18, 1998 (17:22)", "body": "Mom is out of the slammer and unfortunately has regained custody of the 3 kids. I've been on DDSS's arse to get involved and at least look into the other red flags that have been popping up consistently. Meanwhile, he and I spend a lot of time talking about this and that, sometimes home life, sometimes not. He seems to be working out his anger and frustration pretty well (effeand in very positive ways. Today my vent: For an entire week it has been 50s for highs. I planted my garden on Saturday. Since 7am we have received 6 inches of snow with 10 more expected overnight. ARRRGHHHHH!"}, {"response": 108, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Mar 19, 1998 (11:48)", "body": "Can't help laughing, stacey! I wouldn't dreaming of planting before May 1, can't believe you would even consider it there! I've seen snow on the ground in CO in May before!"}, {"response": 109, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Mar 19, 1998 (17:30)", "body": "*eyes downcast* i was just thinking positively... *sob*"}, {"response": 111, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Mar 20, 1998 (00:17)", "body": "lol... what precipitated this?"}, {"response": 113, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Mar 20, 1998 (00:37)", "body": "hmmmm... is this the same one you mentioned before? (when i was telling you (or elke, or somebody) about the broad who was telling me that i needed to sort out my \"issues\" with women, you said some- one was telling you the same thing)..."}, {"response": 115, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Mar 20, 1998 (01:02)", "body": "lol you're right... that's where it was... (didn't remember that)... point is, that's a long time to endure (i mean, when whats-her-name was giving that line to me, was on the order of \"parting shots\"... couldn't possibly endure it once a week... especially when they're right... god, they're really insufferable when they're right)... anyway, i tried the \"help\" thing once... just made things worse..."}, {"response": 116, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Mar 20, 1998 (13:53)", "body": "Do you think you're screwed up enough to require counseling? Are all your relationships unsuccessful? I think the way our loved ones regard us is a good measure of our mental health."}, {"response": 117, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Mar 20, 1998 (17:36)", "body": "i dunno WER (still confused over yours and nick's regular 'mystery girl' 'he said/ she said' banter) Brandon and I are going to counseling (soon) conflict resolution. I don't think it means we're both screwed up (or at least that's besides the point) but i hope we will benefit from some mediation. without all the gory details... he had a f***ed up childhood (who didn't) i lived in Pollyannaville (or so I thought) both of us have manic depressives for dads (gotta love 'em!) and we deal with issues differently sometimes. We've made a commitment and now we're going to ask for a little help in keeping it. About one on one counseling. I've been before. Once when my dad flipped. Once when my brother flipped (family counseling) and once because i thought i needed it. the last time sucked because i get finished talking to this dr. guy and he tells me I am the 'most well adjusted young woman I have met in a long time.' sheesh! (to quote nick!) that's not what you want to hear when you think you need help... it just makes you think you're more screwed up ---- (seeking help when there's nothing wrong... what a freak!) anyway WER, it's no one's decision but your own. Even if there are others involved. They can't make you go and if you don't want to go, it cannot be successful. (whew! end of speech)"}, {"response": 118, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Mar 22, 1998 (13:01)", "body": "but a good speech... and i hope y'all find what you need with the counselling thing... wer, if you do wind up trying analysis or whatever- just be very careful concerning analyst... lots of snakes/half-wits/ charlatans out there... (not all of them named newt or rush... must be very discerning)... (oh, and mystery girl is everywhere, you know... but we weren't talking about her)..."}, {"response": 119, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Mar 23, 1998 (17:40)", "body": "did ya come to any conclusions? did you figure out the question?"}, {"response": 121, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Mar 24, 1998 (09:27)", "body": "(that's the way i deal with my car) for what it's worth, take care of your mind, it's the only thing that is truly yours."}, {"response": 122, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Apr 13, 1998 (20:54)", "body": "wer, stacey's right, take care of yourself and you will be much happier/healthier because of it. am not ashamed to admit it, but i had counseling too, they basically said the same thing that stacey got, so i got a different doctor who would listen. not to hear what i wanted to hear, already know that i'm crazy :)"}, {"response": 124, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Apr 14, 1998 (00:20)", "body": "i agree, bubba... **** mind, **** thought... dunno, yeats (as always) says it better than i can... \"intellect no longer knows IS from OUGHT, or KNOWER from KNOWN\"... fascination with those issues waning... detest so often what is, no faith in what ought to be (and less certain of each)... he also said something about \"the unfinished man and his pain/ brought face to face with his own clumsiness\"... prescient words, and purely a function of mind... no use, desire for it..."}, {"response": 125, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Apr 14, 1998 (15:58)", "body": "Where you been hiding lately, Nick?"}, {"response": 126, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Apr 14, 1998 (20:16)", "body": "ok, i gotta vent. someone in my house has two strikes against them. 1. they asked me if i remembered this really good looking chick with three kids who looked like she never had any..... 2. the hostess at a restaurant was maybe 15, and they said, honey, can you get like that again? OH, and one other thing that has nothing to do with all that.....i hate it when people are too damned lazy to take the shopping cart to the \"please return carts here\" deal right next to their parking space. why do they leave them to bump into other people's cars? One more thing, hate being in the dark about stuff that directly concerns me and my future in my work. namely, am fixing to go somewhere else for a couple of months (do note that plural) and am supposed to leave in two weeks and no one knows if it's a go or no go and here i am busting butt to get ready. (i know, it's part of my line of work, but hate it anyway)"}, {"response": 127, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Apr 14, 1998 (22:51)", "body": "been around... poetry conference, mostly, i guess (though that keeps me occupied a good 3 minutes a day)... rather introspective, these days, i suppose..."}, {"response": 128, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Apr 14, 1998 (22:51)", "body": "miss your voice........"}, {"response": 129, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Apr 16, 1998 (22:56)", "body": "Wolf, sorry to hear things are so f***ed up at your end. Sounds like you're powerless in so many areas (even the supermarket)...keep us posted as to what's going on...."}, {"response": 130, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Apr 20, 1998 (00:23)", "body": "*hugs* Wolf!"}, {"response": 131, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (18:28)", "body": "Have any of you ever been to Switzerland - yeah, that snow-capped place with the nice chocolate, cheese, watches and beautiful people who sound like they're throwing up every time they open their mouths. Now, picture this: I'm in the park with my kids, girls aged two and three. I'm a 24 year-old girl, I love talking about the Teletubbies and why Daddy's got a ding-dong and Mummy's got none, but I also find a perverse stimulation in adult company. So, here I am in the park. I'm like seeking company. No-one wants to talk, even though I speak Swiss German, no they sit there like a bunch of statues, staring into oblivion. Okay, I can handle that. Then I see this baby of about ten months or less crawl away from the sandpit. His Mum isn't looking, 'cos nobody gets up. He crawls away further. He crawls into a bush a good 25m or so away. I get up, I run to him, and drag him out. I carry the kid back to the sandpit. As soon as I reach it, a woman just about attacks me for trying to kidnap her kid. And I say, 'F... off, I wouldn't take the little bastard if you payed me!' I'm just so sick of this paranoid, stupid, pain-in-the-butt nation!!!!"}, {"response": 132, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (02:35)", "body": "*roflmao*"}, {"response": 133, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (03:38)", "body": "You display a common male problem. Grunting, instead of SAYING what it is that pisses you off. Women are so much more straight-forward."}, {"response": 134, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (03:39)", "body": "Or were you having an orgasm?"}, {"response": 135, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (04:07)", "body": "what in the HELL are you talking about?"}, {"response": 136, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (14:37)", "body": "I'll tell you what I'm talking about if you tell me what \"roflmau\" or whatever, is. If you're going to use words like that on this conference, I shall interpret it freely. HA-HA!"}, {"response": 137, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (15:23)", "body": "Nick OH'Honey!, I herebly officially apologize for my terrible conduct. I misinterpreted your roflmau as a grunt, and certainly did not intend any harm whatsoever with my vulgar remarks. *GULP!* Good God, I had almost forgotten how awful soap tastes!"}, {"response": 138, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (16:46)", "body": "*rofgmao*"}, {"response": 139, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (16:48)", "body": "(just kidding)"}, {"response": 140, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (21:18)", "body": "Riette, sorry you're so unhappy in Switzerland; while vacationing, I, too, found everyone over 19 rather guarded and impersonal. (kind of ironic that your biggest language barrier is the internet acronyms!)"}, {"response": 141, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (01:26)", "body": "Hi, Autumn, No, it would not have bothered me if I had only been vacationing here - I LIVE here!!!!! That is why I needed the VENT. Normally I think of myself as a fairly tolerant and humorous person, but here, if you start talking to a women, she thinks: another woman + conversation = MAD as a hare! The men think: woman + 'could you help me with this please' = pick-up line. Know what I mean? The other week I was on my way into town, and three guys from the Swiss equivalent of 'Teen Titties Magazine' wanted me to pose for them, because I asked one to hold the tram door open for me. They even promised me an internet page, the dick heads! Anyway, their enthusiam rapidly dissolved when I explained to them that, while I may look vaguely young or tolerable with clothes on, I have two children, both of whom I nursed for six months . . . Then they started going on about young, foreign women from th rd world countries (I am from Africa - Namibia) luring Swiss men into their beds in order to get pregnant and married. So I did the old thing: Told them to fuck off; my husband is English, and I don't need to LURE anyone - they 'come' of their own accord! HA-HA! I no nobody will believe what I've just told you - perhaps someone who has spent more than a week here will. These things happen to me ALL the time. I keep thinking, perhaps it isn't them, perhaps I am simply a moron-magnet!"}, {"response": 142, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (01:32)", "body": "Oh, and I forgot to tell THIS one. A month after I got married, they tried to throw me out of the country, giving the reason that I was never 'officially brought into the country'. CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS? So I got myself a lawyer. She rang the 'Fremdenpolizei' up, and it came out that they thought I was black - all information they had on me, was a name that looked suspicious to them, and they knew I was from Africa. So my lawyer explained that I was of English decent and white; two days later I got permission to stay. I'm thinking, what If I WERE black? Not only black people, but ANY slightly tanned person who happens to have darkish hair stand in one qeue at visa consulates - the fairer looking individuals get to go in straight away. That makes me wonder . . ."}, {"response": 143, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (21:57)", "body": "Interesting Riette. My opinions of Switzerland have been based soley on beautiful pictures and neutral policies... I never would've imagined the goings on you speak of. My vents today pale in comparison... I'm just tired of being sick. Too sick to spend more than 4 hours at a time conscious but well enough to want to get the hell out of the house. Trouble is after my spending all day at home, Mr. B thinks the house/laundry/garden (other asundry chores) should have been taken care of. If he'd be so brazen as to say this aloud, I could (in clear conscience) tell him to go play with himself, but the undertones are to vague to retaliate against. HarrumpH! (grunting like a man per Riette's remarks in a previous conference! *laugh*)"}, {"response": 144, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (03:44)", "body": "Stacey, why are you so sick? Is is flu kind of sick, or really sick kind of sick . . . or pregnancy kind of sick? . . . Whatever, I am really sorry to hear it; I hate being sick, and when I am I make life HELL for poor Mr. C. He is better than Mr. B in that respect, but he's not yet figured out that white wash doesn't go with coloured things, and so I have knickers in colours you WOULD NOT BELIEVE! I have a question - I want to check this theory I have about men. Is your Mr. B about the same age than you, older or younger? Wait, let me submit this first - my computer is going bonkers at the moment . . ."}, {"response": 145, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (03:49)", "body": "Okay, now my theory goes like this: I think men take a great deal longer than women to mature. I had a few boyfriends before I met my husband. They were all more or less the same age as me, and I ended up losing respect for all of them, 'cos they so soon after the initial courting phase revealed themselves as childish, selfish pricks - I didn't end up friends with any of them! Then I met Mr. C. ALOT older than me, and it simply worked from the start, though I was only 19. He respected me, he challenged me to use the stuff between my ears (I was really uneducated when I first came here), was GREAT in bed because of years of experience, and after four years of marriage and two kiddies later, it just seems to be getting better. Do you think it has something to do with the fact that he had all those years extra to become mature enough for a young woman, or does it simply depend n the man?"}, {"response": 146, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (11:40)", "body": "Age & maturity do not always go hand-in-hand...I have had my fair share of relationships with \"Peter Pans\" many years older, and very equitable ones with men around my same age (never dated anyone younger). What's important is to recognize the bliss in whomever you find it."}, {"response": 147, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (12:53)", "body": "Those are sensible words if ever I have heard some. Old Peter Pans must be even more off-putting than the younger ones. I like a man who can tease me, and be serious with me, and talk to me, and argue with me, and make me laugh, and be a good lover, and be my friend - far too much to expect from many men, you think?"}, {"response": 148, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (12:56)", "body": "as many men as women, imho..."}, {"response": 149, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (13:06)", "body": "You again?! Excuse me, but this is female talk, sir - woman to woman - know what I mean!? But seeing as you're so eMANcipated as to call yourself Kitchen Manager, I shall forgive you. Just this once. Are women really like that too? Have you met many women that were too immature for you, and all that other stuff I talked about? I honestly thought only men were like that. But then again, I've never complained to a man about it . . ."}, {"response": 150, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (13:13)", "body": "I believe that part of the problem lies in each sex's definition of mature...(if'n I couldn't comment, you should be having this conversation in Men are from Mars, as I try very hard not to butt in there) in one way or another, all that I have dated have been immature, and have told me so as well, even if it has been about different aspects of ourselves"}, {"response": 151, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (13:24)", "body": "Thought you'd gone back to work, or whatever you SHOULD be doing instead of this verbal ball throwing. So you have not found the right person yet? It is sensible, though what you've said - yeah, I know it didn't sound like it! HA-HA! But, and this has just struck me right now, it must be a thing somewhat more positive than I thought before. I mean, to find a person exactly as mature, and understanding in the same way, and all the other things . . . What I'm trying to say is - being with a partner like that would be like being married to oneself, would it not. I SURE AS HELL don't want to be married to myself. Would you? Clever, pain in the butt! (Don't look so annoyed, I warned you about my compliments. . . .)"}, {"response": 152, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (17:40)", "body": "Yes, Riette, old Peter Pans are a drag, because they don't come right out and tell you they're Peter Pans. They suck you in with those greying temples and by the time you realize what's going on, an irretrievable period of your life is gone. Don't sound bitter, do I? I think all those great qualities you listed exist in a percentage of the population, but I'm not flattering myself that they all exist in me! How can I expect to find them in all the guys I meet? LOL! I believe in setting the bar high, but I think i should have to meet my own standard..."}, {"response": 153, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (00:44)", "body": "And I thought they were the least to hope for . . . So I'm in trouble here, right? It is a good thing the grey temples that sucked me in isn't a Peter Pan, or my foolishness would end up costing me dearly, huh? You don't think he might still reveal himself as that after six years, do you? I'm getting really worried here! I mean, I just married the guy because I found that broad forehead, and the intellect oozing from it, those great words spoken in deep voice and great abundance a total turn-on! And then there were the grey temples. I mean, God, who can possibly resist THAT?!"}, {"response": 154, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:24)", "body": "LOL!"}, {"response": 155, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (19:03)", "body": "Nah, you'd know by now--you couldn't live in denial for 6 years!"}, {"response": 156, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "Oh, Jesus, Autumn, I'm capable of anything! Relativism backfiring?!?!"}, {"response": 157, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (22:08)", "body": "LOL!"}, {"response": 158, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (22:10)", "body": "LOL! You're talking yourself out of your own theory..."}, {"response": 159, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (01:06)", "body": "No, but I might be dragged out by force - and that depends on how the marriage will go, now that I secretly suspect my husband of being a Peter Pan in hibernation . . . Will let you know. So far he's still putting on the old face . . ."}, {"response": 160, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (05:17)", "body": "So, in which category could Mr. B and Mr. Autumn be filed into?"}, {"response": 161, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (15:41)", "body": "Mr. B would love to be a Peter Pan. I think he was in his earlier life (before Stace) but now feels this irrational pull toward responsibility and stability. He doesn't always like it so much but he tends to be more consistent than I."}, {"response": 162, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (01:20)", "body": "ha-ha! Well, just see to it you bring him up right, and there won't be a problem in the world! Mr. C had a real tendency to offer to go shopping. Then he'd come back with half the things on the list. So once I made two shopping lists, and made him read out the things he bought via intercom. As always he forgot half the things, so I locked him out until he got everything! He never forgets anymore."}, {"response": 163, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (20:42)", "body": "Mr. S. was born middle-aged. Responsibility and stability are the hallmarks of his creed; consistency is his middle name. This can be in turn reassuring and infuriating..."}, {"response": 164, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (22:17)", "body": "likewise Autumn... I both envy and pity you! *smile*"}, {"response": 165, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (22:37)", "body": "What can I say? I married my dad! Freud would definitely have a field day with that (and wouldn't wear trouser socks, either)."}, {"response": 166, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (07:51)", "body": "If Mr. C. should ever turn into my father, I'll shoot him dead with a catapult."}, {"response": 167, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (07:51)", "body": "i have no doubts about your sincerity. i really need to vent. or maybe just a shoulder to squeeze. i'm scared and sad and probably more angry than i've been in a long time. last night when i came home from having dinner with a friend, I found my screen window yanked off and hanging by a nail and my bathroom window pushed completely opened. After the initial shock, freak, upstanding hair experience (who am i kidding, that last all night) I called my friend and asked her to come right over, I thought someone had broken into my house. You see, i am again (as usual) a traveling scientist's widow. Mr. B is in San Diego. Holly came over (with Mace and pepper spray) while I sat in my car pretty much on the very edge. After looking through the house (stupid, stupid, STUPID!) I still didn't feel safe (not in the least). I called the police, an officer came out. The nicest man I've ever met. He searched the house again and asked what had been taken. When I told him nothing he looked rather grim. He wandered the outside and come back with the not-so-happy-wish-I-could-wake-up-now news that four screens had been pried off before the (whoever) dragged one of MY lawnchairs to MY back bathroom window, yanked off MY (dammit MINE!!!) screen from the top so he could unlock it, and shoved the window up. His general feeling was that the 'perp' was intending to lie in wait. An assault situation, not a robbery. There have been two others in the vicinity in the past week. Sgt. Mueller explained the other attacks had been orchestrated in the same manner, women temporarily alone (husbands/roommates out of town), same type of entry (through the old type screens) but that someone (perhaps myself coming home, or the kittens fooling around) had caught him off gaurd and he had left. I spent the night on Holly's couch. I went back this morning. I was mad. I'm pissed off at the sorry bastard who has made me fearful of spending time in my own home. I am pissed off that I don't feel safe/comfortable anything but anxious when I think about going home. I'm scared. I love my independence, I enjoy having the house to myself occassionally and now I'm not really sure I want to go back there. I don't think I could fall asleep. I'm feeling rather odd in many senses relating to this."}, {"response": 168, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (07:51)", "body": "Wow, what a violation. I feel so sorry for you, Stacey. I'm sure you're still evaluating your options, but I'm interested to hear how you're going to handle it once you've analyzed the situation. It's hard to face a faceless demon, isn't it? Your imagination must be working overtime..."}, {"response": 169, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (07:51)", "body": "my prayers for you, Stacey"}, {"response": 170, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (01:48)", "body": "Whatever you do, STAY with your friend until Mr. B is back - it will be easier for you to face the whole thing if he is there too, and you both can better decide what comes next. Do you have any kind of measure of self-defence? Like teargas - find out about that sort of thing from someone who knows. We ALL should - why should these bastards have it so easy?"}, {"response": 171, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (03:08)", "body": "Many strange feelings shoved through me, Stacey. I felt jolted and jangled again, just like when it happened to me 2 years ago: the window was open when I got back and a VCR was gone. It'll take you a little time for that panicky trauma to subside. Anger and fear. Wish my shoulder could be there for ya. I hope Holly is just the right person for you right now. I know you and Brandon'll come up with some pretty good ways to make it extremely difficult for a break-in. Those who can tell ya how to do it, they should know ways that aren't as commonly known---like the police and neighborhood watch groups and magazine articles. And your tough strong mind will stabilize into developing some pretty decent strategies or ways of looking at the whole thing from here on out. Independence will be yours....you'll be able to enjoy it again. And, y'know, you'll feel that much stronger and self-reliant and able. You'll get that feeling of confident determination coming to you. Myself, I didn't do anything different except start to lock the windows, but then I didn't have much that anyone would want, and I haven't been a woman alone now for years. How're ya feeling? Are ya doin' a little better at all? Too soon yet?"}, {"response": 172, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (05:42)", "body": "How are you feeling now, Stacey? Is Mr. B. back yet? I think I speak for all of us when I say I worry about you. I hope you are okay."}, {"response": 173, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (19:08)", "body": "Lookit me!!! Home alone in my own house and feeling okay! (of course it's broad daylight and the only window I'm letting remain open is the one I'm sitting next too.) I took a shower without double locking the bathroom door (much to Brandon's relief -- he's been a bit worried about me) We are moving and Brandon will not go out of town again until then. I'm still mad. In the broad daylight I wish the bastard would show his face so I could smack it with my pointy shoes. I put a sign on the bathroom window (the one he broke in through) that says \"GO AWAY.\" Of course the first time I showered it got wet and drippy since I'm not opening the windows now. We had an open house today (to rent this one out) so the time is near. I got my panties in a knot when I thought, \"what if this guy is still watching me and he thinks we are moving away because of him?\" I don't want him to think he has that much power, I want him to think he didn't scare me, I want him to feel as ineffective as I do when I come home and won't go into my own house alone if no one else is home, I want him to be afraid (be VERY afraid). I want him to get caught before he can scare or hurt anyone else. thankyou all for the well wishes... I hope I always feel this safe at the spring."}, {"response": 174, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, May 31, 1998 (00:40)", "body": "Well, frankly I am glad you are moving. I don't think I'd be able to stay in the same house if my privacy had been so brutally invaded, it would just never be the same. And I'm glad Mr. B. - Brandon is a nice name - is there now. I just hope the bastard gets caught. Do you know, we should open a topic about suitable penalties for people like that. For him I'd suggest only one: delivering him to the guy who makes wallets with human balls, and telling him to take any other parts he may be interested in as well to keep things like sausages and tampons in . . ."}, {"response": 175, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (14:44)", "body": "*laugh*"}, {"response": 176, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (22:43)", "body": "I'm in the house again, alone this time. It's nightime and I readily admit I'm a little nervous. I've been vacillating between wanting the stereo on to ward off bad thoughts and wanting it off just in case I need to tune into certain unusual sounds."}, {"response": 177, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (23:32)", "body": "Hope you get some sleep tonight, Stacey."}, {"response": 178, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (01:41)", "body": "Did you? Next time you have to be alone, you have to make big alarm on this topic, then we can all sit up with you."}, {"response": 179, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (09:25)", "body": "*laugh* I did get some sleep finally... and then Brandon came home and woke me up! I must admit though, I fell asleep much more easily the second time (and slept all through the night!)"}, {"response": 180, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (13:10)", "body": "That's good. And I was being serious."}, {"response": 181, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jun  6, 1998 (15:49)", "body": "I'm drunk, I've just plodded through some stupid, depressing movie when I don't even like watching movies - I felt the need to come here and talk about things that I can't tell my own husband, because I want to protect him from me and the evil inside, and right now I really can't be bothered with writing I with a capital letter or concentrating on correct Englis . So here I am, venting, and not giving a damn about how it comes out or looks, because sometimes I just don't give a damn about anything or any ne. Most of the time I just can't be bothered to bother with things that upset me. But right now I feel bothered as hell. So bothered I could kill and satisfy myself thereby. I had a rather strange day today - one of those that just aren't supposed to happen. for some stupid f--ked up reason my daddy rang me today - I spoke to my father for the first time in over four years. Some f--ked up voice in his head must have told him that Ive actualy managed to get over the crap feelings he tried to instil in me, so he rang me, and all it was good for was to confirm the fact I hate him as much as ever and more. Fancy him telling me he would forgive me for having a bastard child with a fifty year old-man, the mr. C whom I happen to love more than my life, if I would forgive him the few mistakes he made when I was a child. These inculded only minor things of course, like chronical drunkenness and abuse of his wife. the bastard. And I stupid arsehole thought I did not hate him anymore. But I do. I just w sh he were dead. As I sit here ready to throw up I remember being taken hunting, I remember the prey being black people, I remember being taught things that make me want to throw up when I think about them, but most of all I remember the abbhorence, the hatred of him, the loathing, the wishing him dead. I have been suppressing it for four years, telling myself that i don't care any longer, that it did not matter, because i'm too far away, I have managed to escape. But I feel like killing him, and I fee like killing myself for not having killed him years ago when I wanted to and when I had the chance. The bastard had the arrogance to ask me if he could see my children, yes the bastard children I have with my Mr. C. Who in the hell does he think he is, I asked him, I told him to go die in a hole, I told him I wished he were dead, I cursed him, I wished he could have stood in front of me so I could hit him as hard as I could, I wished I could just let all this evil hatred out, and I wished myself dead. Because I don't know how I am supposed to guide two childred to become happy, healthy adults when I'm so hateful, so resentful, so evil myself. I don't know why I am a parent and I don't know how my own husband can love me, and I don't know how discuss this with him, because I fear that he might hate me, and because I lied to him - and told him my father died a long time ago. It was not a lie to me, because as far as I was concerned he died when I was seven, but I was just kidding myself and lying to he person who is supposed to know everything and anything. He thinks I am strong and in control and that nothing ever gets me down, and I feel I cannot dissappoint him. Yet I cannot bear the way I feel, and who I am. And I don't know how to put on my normal foolish happy face. And I don't know what the hell comes next or what to do. I will probably just keep on deceiving him until he dies. It's all I ever do anyway. Then why do I not feel used to it anymore. And why did that damn bastard have to s atter my certainties right now, this moment, today. Why could it not just carry on the way it has done for four years. I just don't know."}, {"response": 182, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, Jun  7, 1998 (00:18)", "body": "*hugs* (best I can do, my friend)"}, {"response": 183, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jun  7, 1998 (21:09)", "body": "Riette, Riette, Riette. I cannot begin to understand the hell you endured in your childhood, but I do know that now is the time to seize the bliss around you that you have expressed such deep feelings for--great husband, kids, your art...he cannot touch any of these things; he has no hold on you or your life any longer. For all intents and purposes, he is dead; let the evil feelings he inspires in you die with him and unburden your heavy heart. I am focusing much loving energy your way. Do you feel it"}, {"response": 184, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (00:01)", "body": "Emotional scars get provoked and screwed up into forming emotional scar lines of horrific internal personal pictures. They can brain you and bewitch-twitch-pitch-into-a-ditch you. They're spell-binding. But you can give THEM a breathing spell. Let them go, with each exhale. You're not just standing there---the seductive magic of what's essentially true about you (your inner beauty) is wanting to take wonderful chances with your ability to renew your own revival. Your father's need to impose his will and dishonest prejudiced murderous garbage on you is laying its head on a pillow of down, where it falls asleep, a deep deep sleep. He shoulda known better, he must've had a hearing problem on top of everything else. Only reconnect with the inherent life-force of your soul, and the change coming back into your smile your energy your creative spark your loving instincts will greet your own spirit's hello with a spectacular back-on-the-go. Rev it up, girl. Hey c'mon, we're with with with you! Riette, let us have it! Your you. Your new you."}, {"response": 185, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (09:23)", "body": "I certainly can not give insight nor support any better than WER, Autumn and jim have already done. I can only imagine your pain, hatred, frustration and fear. But this husband, this man who means the world to you, this family, this life you have made for yourself (because, make no mistake, you are responsible for the good in your life) they are your reality now. The past will always linger but certainly doesn't need to consume. Riette, you found a lot of strength inside you to break away from a man that id so much to hurt you, THAT is what you will give your children. That strength is what you can help them find in themselves. And Mr. C, he loves that strength. I know because we all love it. Be strong. *hug*"}, {"response": 186, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (13:19)", "body": "Hi, guys. Would like to apologize for inflicting upon you all that appalling post of melancholic self-indulgence. I am sorry - I hate burdening people with my silly crap, but it was a little unbearable on Saturday. I would also like to say thank you for everything. Thank you for the words of advice and comfort and support. It meant (means) a great deal to me, and I don't know if it is wrong to say this to people one has never seen, nor ever will see, but I love you all, wretched as I am at times. Thank you for tolerating me here. Unfortunately, unlike you might have thought from my silence yesterday, I was not sulking. Of only I had, I might have read all of this before doing what I did. And a silly thing it was - as I should have known, but didn't care. So I've been spending last night and this morning in hospital. See, I thought to myself, if I just sit here in this state of limbo, drinking myself into a coma I'm likely to become so self-destructive that I'll lose everything I have here and let the people who depend on me down, so I have to do something about this before I let the crap inside of me eat away my brain. So I did what I used to do when I was little to prove to myself that I had the guts to get away from my father - I jumped off my balcony, I soared and missed the sandpit by only a metre or so. Feel free to laugh or rebuke. Don't worry it was only one floor, so I knew I would not die, and was in no way suicidal. Well, it worked, and I was rather proud of myself when I got up there - until I discovered that my arm was totally broken. So I went in, told Mr. C. what had happened, and why I did it, then called a taxi and went to hospital. They kept me in for the night - which gave him time to decide what to do. To my amazement he did not ask questions or condemn me for lying to him; he held me, told me he loved me more than ever. God knows why, and what I have done to deserve so much love and kindness, but here I am. Feeling shaken, but ready and eager to live and learn some more. I am so happy to be here."}, {"response": 187, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (14:03)", "body": "ouch."}, {"response": 188, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (14:26)", "body": "Atta way, Riette. You came outa this alive. Interesting solution. To hurt yourself to keep you from completely doing yourself in. Glad it worked. Sure don't mean to encourage it. My hopes are that next time, if there's a next time, you will create an even better solution. Be creative. You can be your own best friend. It's a great moment when your innermost being greets you with love and understanding during your worst crisis. And just like that it helps you realize the right thing to do with the deepest darkest forces of the past or anything else. It comes...it actually does...your soul can deal with anything in life that life can throw at it...just ask and be with what comes... it's there...sorta instinctively, intuitively, if you will. Good to have you back at home. Good to have you."}, {"response": 189, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (16:35)", "body": "Think I overdid it then? Thank you for that, Jim - not even going to try and resist - it WAS a bloody stupid thing to do. It's just that my soul is as deaf as anything right now. Don't feel creative, so that solution was and is out of the question for the moment. I'm not sure why I'm hurting so much inside - I mean I never even loved him or anything. Certainly don't see myself as a victim either. But I just feel this overwhelming, crappy urge to cry my eyes out, but I can't, because I've never cried in front of Mr. C., and I d feel too embarrassed to do so. What a pain in the arse. Anyway, I'll try and be better company tomorrow. Goodnight - hope you're having a nice day. And thank you."}, {"response": 190, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (17:04)", "body": "just hypothesizing here but.. maybe the extra hurt/pain/anger comes from the fact that he was supposed to love you and he didn't do that very well. very liberating feeling to feel comfortable crying in front of Brandon. It is being completely emotionally naked and having him love me/accept me in that fashion which brings me peace."}, {"response": 191, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (21:02)", "body": "and when I cry in front or behind my cat, Jah, I somehow always get a call from Brandon. He always starts with, \"now don't stop crying just because I called.\" Then he tells me, \"you don't have to just sob, Jim, let it all come out....that's better....much better....that's it, that's what I mean....when I cry and Stacey's not around, I give Mr. C a call....he says, 'is this who I think it is?'.... because, y'know, I'm just crying on the phone to him.... so he says, 'it's okay, Brandon, I'm here for you and I'm listening, you're all right now, with me'....\" other times, if I'm on either side of Jah when I start crying, the phone call I get is always from Autumn. Go figure. But Autumn is different in some way. I really don't get it. Cuz I'll be cryin' on the phone for only really a few seconds, and her listening absorbs my tears before they even come out. All crying stops in its tracks. All that back up in there way in ma head ain't nuthin' but verdant hills real sudden-like. We jes walkin alongside one another in spirit. Sorta like floatin, only not. Maybe a floatin walk. And songs come up yonder outa nowhere from across and through them sky cloud colors at sundown. Then the rhythm in the walk is jez music with a feelin'. I can't quite feel her touch but I knowed she a holdin ma hand. Usually, sumpin'll happen like a twig'll snap and leaves rustle over that way a few yards. My eyes open and I just hear Autumn saying goodbye and I say bye and hang up the phone."}, {"response": 192, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  9, 1998 (01:39)", "body": "Yes, well, that's how it is. Funny how one gets rid of the big issues like racism and murder and violence - but smaller, subtle things, something as simple as crying; just there the conditioning somehow had to go deeper. Give me an argument, say something nasty, hit me if you like - no problem, those are the things I were conditioned to do. Ask me to love and be happy, I'll stubbornly do that too. And if I feel hurt, I can say so easily enough. But crying; I cried once when I was ten, when he took me 'black' hunting to prove to me that they were animals. I cried because I was afraid, and because I don't like to see people hurt, much less shot in the back with a double barrel rifle. Of course it helped about as much as trying to crack a nut between your thumb and little finger. The positive outcome of the incident was that it instilled once and for all my loathing for racist crap; the silly part is not being able to trust the idea of crying in front of someone else. But when I cry on my own, I just feel lonely; it does not really bring relie . Silly business. But it's time to put it out of my head now, so I'll stop complaining, and go see what's happening on the other topics. I'm sorry about all this."}, {"response": 193, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Tue, Jun  9, 1998 (04:05)", "body": "I like to go to movies alone because I can cry my butt off and not feel self-conscious about it. I can laugh more easilies too, cuz no one knows me there (I don't why they don't, though, cuz I go around to everyone in the theater during the previews and introduce myself to 'em). Right now the end of my penis hurts. And my pee is real dark. Maybe I'm gonna have a baby. I think I been drinking too much strawberry-orange-banana Dole juice, and not eating enough variety in my diet (just granola and tacos, lately). I just ate some kind of cod in creamy dijon sauce. That oughta fix it. Maybe it'll be twins. Riette, I feel like what you did was creative. I called it interesting but could've just as easily called it creative. It was. And I erred when I said hurt (as in you hurt yourself in order to keep from doing something worse). Jumping into the sand down below seems like it sounds like it probably might not have hurt you, but would've done the trick as far as interrupting the severely self-destructive course the events were heading in. So I was really applauding your idea, and show didn't think it a bloody stupid thing to do. Then the part about the soul thing, whatever that (soul) is, well, I was throwing that in the pot just in case it might help you to resonate with it at some future trial in life. I meant that as being creative in another way or in another direction. But you're right, if a person is deaf to the soul, or the soul is deaf to the person, it ain't agonna happen. It seemed to me like the way I wrote that part was too directive-sounding, like I had my head up my butt when I said it to ya, and I can see why it would put one in the mood to resist. I think what Stacey was saying is monumental. I think it's true that pain/hurt/anger come from the love that wasn't there. In junior high, that's when alotta socializing was going on with people my age. It just started getting real different like that. I went into a shell with that stuff. Not with my friends who I'd do stuff with after school. But they were all male. And I just think if my parents had been really relating to me, I woulda been really relating to my parents. And then if it were real, then love coulda come in and I woulda been able to break it to them that I wasn't doin' such great shakes in the socializing department, y'know. And then they coulda helped me like break the ice of the shell SOME kinda way, I dunno how, but it coulda been done. And I think it woulda been done, IF... I sure didn't cry much back then. I was like hardened, desensitized, numb. But I can be my best friend now. I mean I can sorta help myself notice lotsa good stuff happening now that COMPLETELY passed me right by back then. I just couldn't zone in on it. Now I can. Well, little by little, anyway. For me it's in the heart coming out. Feeling. And where it's in a non-virtual social situation. But it ain't easy. But it's not quite so shut down anymo'. See, I'm real in touch with ma feelin's, but not in touch hardly at all with how to say 'em and do 'em and be 'em with someone else live. I shy. I inhibitidtidted. self-conscious, i show is. and i knows why i gots da low self-worth floozies.....it's cuz i know i don't know how to not hold back and stuff and so that tells me that the other person gonna feel limitidtidted arounds me and so my worth natcherly ain't worth a crack a butt, I surely reckons."}, {"response": 194, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  9, 1998 (05:59)", "body": "Good to know your parents f--ked up too - but I'm sorry you felt lonely when you needed to feel the opposite. Mum was/is nice though - don't know what the hell she had to marry a sicko, but it's her business. And don't worry about the creative thing - even if you thought it was stupid, it doesn't really matter. It was stupidly creative, and it's a damned pain having to type with one hand. But it is as you said; I was merely trying to shock myself back to reality - pity there isn't such a thing as reality pills, hey? One of my greatest fears is the fear of heights, even if it's a mere one storey high. I find it absolutely terrifying standing on my kitchen table, and jumping from something quite high is for me the ultimate fear-horror experience. So when I am so upset that I grow afraid of myself, I do the test: if I have the guts to jump from a high thing, then I know I have the guts to deal with whatever it is that upsets me; if I don't . . . well, I've always managed the jump (though this is only the third time I've brok n a limb), but if ever I don't, I'll get help. So, anyway, don't worry - what you said did not come out THAT twisted, especially considering the fact that you're having a sore willy. Must be difficult to concentrate on anything. Try ointment for baby buttocks - works for anything from mosquito bites to sore willies! But don't think I'm going to take your advice on crying: you know how expensive it is to go to the cinema? I sure won't pay SFR. 22- just to go cry my eyes out with strange people staring at me. No, heck, they'll all run out, and sue me for indecent exposure or something. No, I'll call you instead - your riddle talk is bound to make me feel better at some point. Now go get that ointment for your willy - it's starting to affect yer langeruage."}, {"response": 195, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun  9, 1998 (17:34)", "body": "i hope it's twins Jim... would you like some name suggestions? no rhymey names... that really screws with a self-image. how about... Abigail and Zander or Fred and Bert or Addison and Connor or Andrew and Zoe (that's WER's daughter's name (just the Zoe part)) or trent and d.f. or LSD and PCP or dill and sweet or hmmm... well... you guys give some suggestions."}, {"response": 196, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Tue, Jun  9, 1998 (23:33)", "body": "I have the feeling that your poems get into some humor somewhere along the line. Of those names, Zoe really stood out. I'd forgotten how much I like it. Phoebe or Phoeb, I like too. My obstetrician, Shoeless Gwimmy Poo, asked me if I cared to look at a sonogram. I told her I cared. That's when I found out it's triplets. Gwimmy asked me real on the spot-like, \"well, have you ever considered the name Stacey?\" I says, \"You mean like for myself, as a nickname or something?\" \"No, Bugs, for one of your babies.\" \"Well, once when I was watching a TV special on tight ends, there was this one they came to, named Stacey Vura, she's real big in Colorado, I would say pretty much the Michael Jordan of Ultimate Frisby there, I considered it then, that was about a week ago.\" \"Uh-huh, uh-huh, and.....\" \"Well, I'm already getting intimations of things to come, because there's one bun in the oven that's got a huge amount of energy, see, SEE!, that one right there! it ricocheted off the other 2 that time, that of course would have to be Stace and I dunno what she thinks she's doin' in there, but how'm I ever gonna last thru this? I got what, 8 more months to go? I do know one thing, though, no matter what, it's gonna be natural childbirth for me all the way....I'm a real woman....I'm organic....say, Gwimmy, you do any midwifing in yer spare time?\" \"Jim, you're a man, get real! And yes, I will midwife your 3 for you.\" \"Great. But Gwimmy, be sure and really prep yerself, I think you'll truly wanna be ready for Stacey! Close the window before birth, or don't be surprised if she shoots right outa me and out the window too.....and probably make some kinda catch.\""}, {"response": 197, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (01:34)", "body": "Ha-ha!!! So, real woman, where are these triplets supposed to come out, hey? The not-too-hairy backside, I suppose. Why don't you start practising by sticking a water melon up your backside - 'cos that's how it feels, only the water melon goes the other way, doesn't it? Three of them, called Zoe, Phoebe and Stacey? Holy cow! Sure the names will be worth the effort. But I'm worried about that sore Willy - I mean, that's probably where real women called Jim's Fallopian tubes sit . . . meaning there could be a fourth one hiding in there somewhere - boy, are you going to be the envy of the town's boys in about four months' time or what?!?!"}, {"response": 198, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (14:07)", "body": "*laugh* just don't feed the bouncy one anymore chocolate!"}, {"response": 199, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (15:32)", "body": "Yeah, swallow a few magnets - it'll keep them all nicely together and quiet. Has the morning sickness started yet? What are you now . . . five weeks or so? They say one doesn't get so sick with boys, so I hope Stacey Phoebe and Zoe are going to come out with the appropriate genitalia!"}, {"response": 200, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (18:59)", "body": "Hon, you've got a lot of decisions to make--cloth or disposable? Bottle or breast? Pacifiers, for or against?"}, {"response": 201, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (19:24)", "body": "The important thing is the girls. They're all I care about. I make it a point to keep my mind uncluttered, for the benefit of the buns. The other stuff I just listen to the advice of my midwife on. Dr. Poo really knows her stuff. She's shown me 4 really different looking shoehorns. All I have to do is choose. I like the one on the left. She wants me to start relaxation exercises and stretching exercises tomorrow. Several guys in the neighborhood have approached me to share their own birthing experiences with me. That's helping so much with my confidence. When I tell them what their stretch marks mean to me, in a Rorschach sense, they look relieved, and as we part, they give me a little friendly spinal tap as they walk away. Warms my heart. I feel more and more ready. Please don't make me afraid, that's all I ask."}, {"response": 202, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (19:27)", "body": "I'm so glad you've found a support group. Will you stay home with them after they're born, or will you return to work right away?"}, {"response": 203, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (20:04)", "body": "autumn, you keep asking me such tough practical questions thank gawd, Dr Poo called she suggested that i become unemployed when that time arrives that was lucky and she said it without really having to think...that was nice"}, {"response": 204, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 11, 1998 (01:09)", "body": "You sound a little fragile, Mum. Nipples hurting? Muscles going jello in the pelvis area? Feeling a little hormonal? Eating tar and charcoal yet? Well, don't worry that'll pass . . . in eight months time, by which time it'll also be twenty times worse; but only after a couple of hours of intense and hellish . . . oh no, don't wish to frighten you. Oh, and I was wondering: who is the Dad, Cowgirl?"}, {"response": 205, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, Jun 11, 1998 (04:00)", "body": "Tom Robbins took me to this shaman who lives on Garden Street, down by the river, just north of it, in Austin. I was in the shaman's sweat lodge, in her backyard. And I was alone in the lodge. There was this nervous laughter that gurgled up in my belly. It went to my chest, then back to my belly. It was extremely delicate and refined, then became volatile, then back to so sublime. Suddenly I found myself bent over and face-to-face with my opposite. My opposite was intimate and warm, but it was translating each of the looks in my eyes into systematically rearranged intestinal mutations. And of course the vacuum, left by the passing away of the mutations, this vacuum popped and burst into portions of humanness in embryo form. The last thing my opposite said to me before vanishing, was: \"the looks in your eyes were funny-looking but I liked them, and I like you\" When i came outa the sweat lodge, I was gonna ask the shaman what she thought was goin' on back in there, but she said, \"I dunno, i wasn't there...\" before i could ask her. Then I said, \"Zounds!!!\" and started leaning and falling. Tom caught me, saying, \"We better go...thank you for your help...nice tricks.\" Blue-grey eyes see gray sky the sky sees everything we completely don't care about"}, {"response": 206, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 11, 1998 (05:51)", "body": "Don't mean to be cruel, but that sounds more like you had your stomache pumped . . . well, perhaps that's just Tom's way of doing it. She can be such a tough guy sometimes. I know, because I slept with him too. But luckily I was on the pill at the time, so I didn't get pregnant. But if I did I would have called the baby Jim, and gotten Mum to knit her some pretty pink cardigans to wear with her leather loin cloths. I wonder if she would have preferred the bottle or the breast . . . ha-ha, just kidding!!"}, {"response": 207, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jun 12, 1998 (13:47)", "body": "OK, we should just change the name of this topic to \"INvent at will\"! :-)"}, {"response": 208, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun 12, 1998 (14:00)", "body": "We're pathetic, aren't we?? I can't remember talking so much nonsense with anyone but my sister before I came to the Spring - once or twice a week. Now it's all I ever do! Shows you - the human is inherently a decadent being! We're not exactly helping each other to grow more sensible either. ha-ha!"}, {"response": 209, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Fri, Jun 12, 1998 (21:02)", "body": "your sister keeps tellin' me to say this stuff. i don't wanna hurt her feelins'. i really care for her and all. she means alot to me. i miss her so. i wish she hadn't left me. i'll probably never get over her. i so much loved the way she held the vacuum cleaner handle in one hand and the extension cord in the other. this is really difficult for me to tell you all this. as you can imagine. but i'm so glad i have you all here for the support you offer me. i couldn't get through any of this without you. i most certainly do appreciate the wigs you sent me and the booze. i'll be back on my feet in no time. who was it? well ONE of you told me: \"it's so easy to get in venting, but so hard to get out\" i wonder if i'll ever get outa here.... somebody punch me out, and drag me to high ground, away away away from da spring.... hey, jez 9 days and we'll be outa spring anyway---first day of summer"}, {"response": 210, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jun 13, 1998 (01:38)", "body": "So YOU'RE that guy she had that little fling with?!?! Should have known. She said he was pretty weird, and spoke with a strange Taxylvannian accent. She wanted to clean the hotel room with a vacuum cleaner after you did it (said you came all over the place like a shower tap), but then you insisted you could do it yourself. So you turned into a big, slimy leech, and SUCKED it all up! That kind of turned her on, so she turned into Godzilla, but you got scared the minute you could see her big teeths, and galloped away on your sheepdog. Yeah, we had a good laugh about that. She misses you, and still keeps your chest hair in a locket around her neck. When her husband asks who it belongs to, she says to her pet monkey. So I don't know what that's supposed to mean. But I'm glad you two didn't get further than that, because having you for a brother out-law would have been a bad influence on me. And what if I came to visit, and you got confused between who's who? Could be dangerous, because one of our favourite games as kids were to crack nuts and other hard objects between our teeth (and I'm serious! She once managed to bite through a nail!! ha-ha!), so it could have turned out nasty and you'd bleed your little pickle heart out! So don't be sad - just take my advice: go for MORE normal than youself next time, not LESS."}, {"response": 211, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun 16, 1998 (13:25)", "body": "perhaps they are not buns jim, but potato muffins. that may explain why they are so jumpy... potato muffins need not be in the oven so long as buns."}, {"response": 212, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 17, 1998 (01:44)", "body": "ha-ha!!"}, {"response": 213, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun 17, 1998 (10:40)", "body": "VENTING ON BOXES! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK! BLEEECCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! OUT OUT DAMN CARDBOARD! dsjakfjioewfjidslgjvwaiegfvoiesadjiogreawjgvlewaijgfewojfviwvfioerjlwkejf ipjdskfjewajfijewijfewifjkldsjcvipewfwedlk;fsafkirop[ewfkodsktpogfewkofkewofkoewkfoewkfoewkgolkwaregowakermlogkwrogjkowarlgkmowrejgoewrjgowrjkgopewrkjgpoerjkgorjempogjkerpogkroeg,kesrpokbsgkipowear [ftpewl,gfpvkergpokergolker,gkdrl[pvgberkpgtlre[glve[lg[r]e ][waert;[]weptlwkemdfklgjlerkjatoprekigtpaweotperkmhgoerpjkoghlkr,ehgporke[ogkero Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! MUCH better! (BTW, closing is today. Move is Friday.)"}, {"response": 214, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 17, 1998 (12:56)", "body": "Good luck. Soon you'll wash those boxes right outta yer hair!"}, {"response": 215, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jun 17, 1998 (21:04)", "body": "Dat's right, girlfriend! Keep us posted..."}, {"response": 216, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 18, 1998 (01:27)", "body": "By the way, are YOU moving, Autumn?"}, {"response": 217, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (16:18)", "body": "boxes dwindling rapidly... clutter reproducing exponentially!"}, {"response": 218, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (17:18)", "body": "kibble reproduces kibble..."}, {"response": 219, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (17:29)", "body": "wow did you guys vent...... i want to vent. my plants are dead or dying. my beloved orchids are sulking. the flowers outside are pitiful, all the boxed ones dead. and then my boss gets upset cuz i wanna take some of my hard earned leave to be with my babies. gimme a break. the beach was no vacation and we slaved everyday til late with no time off. think i deserve some time with my friends and family. spent four days, count 'em, four days on a plane, to get back here and am very tired and in disbelief that i'm here, so don't gimme no crap about needing a break. as if she would ever be sent to the desert. sorry, know it sounds childish, but this IS my topic *grin*"}, {"response": 220, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (17:53)", "body": "Doesn't sound childish, and it's your good right. Four days on the plane? Which continent, I mean. And all that for business?? And all this time I thought it was a family holiday. Now I really do feel sorry for you - I'm sorry you're having such a rotten week. Wer tells me you also have two girls, Wolf - you, Autumn and me, it seems! And it's a good thing - this world needs more women for the 21st century. How old are yours?"}, {"response": 221, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (18:20)", "body": "(editorial comment...seems I screwed up on the reporting... seems it is one boy and one girl...sure hope I don't have to trade Zoe out to \"correct\" the situation...)"}, {"response": 222, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (21:53)", "body": "*laugh* my son is 9 and daughter is 5. And yes, it was business. 40 days worth in the desert, then 4 getting home. Spain, Germany, Newfoundland, Arizona, then the bayou."}, {"response": 223, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (15:42)", "body": "Ugh, you poor thing! Forty days! I'd shiver up from lack of sex and little sticky finger marks on my sunglasses! Go on holiday, Wolf!"}, {"response": 224, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (15:47)", "body": "you betcha!"}, {"response": 225, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (15:52)", "body": "You swift Wolf, you!"}, {"response": 226, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (16:12)", "body": "*giggle* philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 2, "subject": "Americ's Philosophy", "response_count": 137, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "That's a great thing, Americ. I'll look forward to these philosophical meanderings and try to meander a bit myself."}, {"response": 2, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (12:09)", "body": "Philosophy is a wide open kind of thing for me. When I studied it at San Francisco State University and at University of California, Irine -- I was greatly disappointed by the fact that people had walled philosophy into a \"discipline\". I see philosophy as something that everyone does. Children and young people do philosophy all the time. They take the great ideas seriously enough, so that they are willing to play with them. By the time most people become \"educated\" they have lost the capacity for philosophy and perfer dogma."}, {"response": 3, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (13:56)", "body": "Rain here in Northern California these past two days. Feeling like Fall, now. Feeling like my body is part of all this --- nature. Often....due to my techno-life, I forget that I am nature, too."}, {"response": 4, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (12:47)", "body": "Today is the first and last day of my life. So I might as well make the best of today."}, {"response": 5, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (10:49)", "body": "A wonderful thought, thank you."}, {"response": 6, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (11:52)", "body": "I think that people are very afraid of depression. It is the most fearsome emotion (or lack of emotion). We use a lot of drugs to overcome it. Yet, I believe, that depressions are periods of great internal integration. Things are happening within us that the mental/emotion system cannot \"see\". Often, after a depression, there is great creativity and insight. So it is good to work with depression as if it were some kind of friend."}, {"response": 7, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (12:19)", "body": "Depression is only fearsome when you don't know what is going on. If you know you are down and if you can figure out why, everything is still okay and predictable. When your emotions are out of control and you don't understand what is hapening -- that is (for good reason) frightening. Periods of situational depression have been good for me but only after I have assessed the situation and begun on a path to investigate why I am in the state I am in. Once I know the why, I can begin to resolve the situations, feelings in my life that have overshadowed my happiness. Wallowing in a depression is dangerous -- the thoughts are less constructive and occassionally dangerous."}, {"response": 8, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (15:30)", "body": "Well put Stacey! A long time ago a friend gave me one of my best suggestions about life during a depression: \"Never, ever make a decision while you are depressed.\" That has kept from from doing more stupid things than I would normally do anyway."}, {"response": 9, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (10:49)", "body": "good advice, I should heed it more often. Unfortunately, I have made a couple major decisions while situationally depressed. In a short time, I discovered they were not the most well thought out moves."}, {"response": 10, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (00:49)", "body": "So the best thing...is to do those things that keep us out of depression or help depression go away. Sunshine, fresh air, singing, playing flut...etc. Good friends,....etc."}, {"response": 11, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (10:02)", "body": "If you heard me play the flute... there's a deep depression for you! I find too that, if I'm upset about something, letting myself vent (scream, cry, yell or writing it all down) allows me to wallow for a bit, get it out and return to a more balanced state more quickly. All this opposed to holding it in and avoiding the issue."}, {"response": 12, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (13:43)", "body": "That sounds so healthy! I tend to hold it in."}, {"response": 14, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (09:49)", "body": "*smile*"}, {"response": 16, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (10:20)", "body": "Good Morning!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (17:51)", "body": "Good afternoon. I decided to not be on the net for almost 2.5 days. Like an addict withdrawing from his favorite addiction. I resisted it. Found myself thinking and feeling things that I would not feel, if I had spent so much time in front of the computer screen. Like any drug, this Interent and World Wide Web thing can be used but should not be abused...."}, {"response": 18, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (19:13)", "body": "Absolutely, you've got to see, feel, hear, and taste real folks. And go on those long walks. I take time for these things."}, {"response": 19, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (11:11)", "body": "Americ, nick and I thought we had run you off with our idle banter!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (12:36)", "body": "Americ, are we going to meet some of your students and coterie of followers here sometime?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (14:52)", "body": "Yes... in fact am sending one of my research associates into The Spring. Expect a posting from Bett Lujan Martinez soon."}, {"response": 22, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (15:57)", "body": "Great!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (00:26)", "body": "Also we are just ending the semester. It's the new group in January that I can point to The Spring. I will just make it part of their homework. :)"}, {"response": 24, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (08:05)", "body": "If you want to use your own public or private conference to conduct your class, feel free. I'll be happy to open any new areas you need. And if your students come up with some suggestions, beware, we'll probably use 'em."}, {"response": 25, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (22:08)", "body": "Thank you. This is great!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (11:53)", "body": "I am seeing that this philosophy conference is like a garden. Terry gave me a plot of cyber-land I planted a few seeds Now the garden is starting to grow It warms my heart to see new friends and old friends and relatives coming here to make contributions I see the spirit of dialogue and mutual respect growing here I love the way things are growing"}, {"response": 27, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (20:28)", "body": "I love it too. Recently a friend has given me a place to grow and I know how you feel. I am going through some transformations of my own. I'm glad things are expanding and growing for you."}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (18:16)", "body": "\"I believe you rarely achieve more than you expect.\" -- Carol Grosse A crazy turn of events for me... I have a new teaching position!!! I am the self-contained ED (Emotionally Disturbed) teacher at Knight Academy as of Monday."}, {"response": 29, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (18:46)", "body": "Congrats!..."}, {"response": 30, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (19:37)", "body": "thank you. I'm glad to be in one place all day and the challenge is definitely positive!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (12:49)", "body": "Congrat! Stacey."}, {"response": 33, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (12:53)", "body": "I was reading the following on this rainy Sunday morning: \"...And God is truth...Only our very being is more fundamental to us than truth. We must have truth; only then can we begin to live, only then can we rest in beauty's contemplation...\" (My Way of Life)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (17:49)", "body": "The quote I had my students read and copy today: \"Don't let yesterday take up too much of today.\" Roy Rogers"}, {"response": 35, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (14:02)", "body": "\"Be here now!\" Live life fully, now. Good remember... ...again and again."}, {"response": 36, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (18:14)", "body": "\"People are just about as happy as they make up their minds to be.\" -- Abraham Lincoln."}, {"response": 37, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (19:12)", "body": "\"only that day dawns to which we are awake.\"-henry thoreau"}, {"response": 38, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (19:26)", "body": "life is short, live it now."}, {"response": 39, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (19:36)", "body": "rock on, beavis..."}, {"response": 41, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (23:27)", "body": "that's cool, wer..."}, {"response": 43, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (09:37)", "body": "*smile* I like it too."}, {"response": 44, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (21:12)", "body": "I think it is important to remember again and again that philosophy is not an answer or set of answer. It is a path toward wisdom. Philosophy means of the \"love of wisdom.\" I, of course, find that most of what passes as \"philosophy\" in universities and book stores is bad philosophy. Just a lot of words. What I want is a kind of attention that brings the heart and mind up to a new level of awareness; that makes us question our lives enough so that we actually make a little progress."}, {"response": 46, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (09:51)", "body": "It's my understanding that the etymology of the word was fairly innocent but as the church lost 'control' of the people the celebrations became more 'fun' than reverent. Being rather 'un-fond' of any of the organized religion I have been exposed to, I really don't mind the commercialization on a spiritual level."}, {"response": 47, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (10:57)", "body": "I think that one of the biggest problems with \"organizied religion\" is that it becomes ritual without spirit. Nothing as odd as being in a group trying to have fun and celebration of the birth and/or resurrection of the Savior. You know, you just can't feel good on que. Every year, at Easter, I go with my oldest daughter to Grace Cathedial in San Francisco. It is a wonderful and beautiful place. The Bishop for Nothern California presides. He brings in a jazz band and trys to get people to swing. Well, I tell you, most people still just want to be stiff in the pews. To shout and swing and dance at the end -- because the Savior has been resurrected seems to be alien to a group that is more interested in looking good than feeling good. But it is still at lot of fun!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (13:05)", "body": "For me, heart felt fun is always closer to god than reverence, ritual, or any of the old paradigms. Seems to me, religion of the suffering kind has been a study in contrast/seperation."}, {"response": 49, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:06)", "body": "amen."}, {"response": 50, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:09)", "body": "religion is too deeply a personal matter to be \"organized\"... a kind of communion is the very best one can hope for, but even that is a crap shoot... to invest one's spiritual well-being into the collective behaviors of human beings is to invite disillusion (at the least)..."}, {"response": 51, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:24)", "body": "amen."}, {"response": 52, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "unless, of course, one is presbytarian (like me)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:33)", "body": "just kidding"}, {"response": 54, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:33)", "body": "*chuckle*"}, {"response": 55, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (00:38)", "body": "I love you all. This is the sweatest group I have ever met. And, to think this is *only* a meeting of spirits in cyberspace. In a way, this cyberspace, soul to soul connection is a great proof of the spiritual nature of human life. (could the animals and trees also chime in here too?)"}, {"response": 57, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (09:40)", "body": "what about the animals wer? you spend plenty o time with them! Shall we dare to fathom a tree's phiolosophy on life, growth, death and (ahem) god?"}, {"response": 59, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:20)", "body": "Oh man... the animals part gots all kinds a strange pics going! I had a favorite tree when I was about seven or eight. It was in the far back reaches of the school playground and it gave pecans every year. I talked to it now and again. As I recall it just listened. Maybe because I never asked it anything substantial except, \"how are you feeling today, Nutty?\""}, {"response": 61, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:24)", "body": "yes"}, {"response": 62, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (08:45)", "body": "I think a tree would scoff at the questions, for the tree is part of the answer, part of the cyclic nature to life, as we are to ask another. Perhaps if we just looked and wondered at the trees life there would be its answer? Or perhaps my studies on post modernism is clouding the issue?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (10:44)", "body": "No I would go and get some pyschological help, (smile) or perhaps get off the LSD. Could you?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (11:01)", "body": "Interesting, empathy, do mean with out verbal words though? So a feeling rather then intellectual knowing?"}, {"response": 68, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (12:17)", "body": "I think I am asking for your definition..."}, {"response": 69, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, May  6, 1998 (19:31)", "body": "Speaking of Americ, I read this by him today: the CyberCampus ( http://cybercampus.ggu.edu ) is the kind of thing you are talking about. We will have over 40 online courses during the Fall with 1000 to 1500 students. Many of these are part of complete cerificate programs and we expect full degees beyond the Master's in Public Administration soon. Check out the site. I have staff, faculty, the whole thing. It took over three years of alpha/beta testing to develop a very simple model that takes hardly any support. Please feel free to write me at mailto:americ@well.com or call me at (510)465-6088 for a direct conversation. Writing is not always my best mode of communication."}, {"response": 70, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul  3, 1998 (04:08)", "body": "To Wer intellectual knowing is many, many different things. To Wer feelings are what matters."}, {"response": 71, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jul  3, 1998 (10:00)", "body": "I'll get back to this...can't think at the moment..."}, {"response": 72, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul  3, 1998 (17:15)", "body": "See? That's exactly what I mean . . ."}, {"response": 73, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (00:51)", "body": "explain please (and this time, with feeling)"}, {"response": 74, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (01:39)", "body": "Okay, my sweety-honey-baby-muffin-pretty-pie(let). But how can I possibly explain the phenomenon of a man who prefers to put sweetness and feeling before cold, cruel intellect? It is beyond me. Must I carry on? (that's what I meant by it)"}, {"response": 75, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (00:43)", "body": "my philosophy includes the idea of eternal return. I am back! It is nice to see things as they are."}, {"response": 76, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (02:21)", "body": "Americ!!!!! What a wonderful surprise!!! Where have you been, what have you been up to?!?!?!?! And I never even got to know you properly. WELCOME BACK."}, {"response": 77, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (11:41)", "body": "Glad to see you back, Americ!"}, {"response": 78, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (12:53)", "body": "Wer, it's a good thing you call yourself that, and not Satan's own Goddess."}, {"response": 79, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (22:09)", "body": "You did good, Americ by starting this conference. See what you've wrought?"}, {"response": 80, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (00:26)", "body": "Hi, Terry! How's the tool?"}, {"response": 81, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (00:27)", "body": "And: HA-HA!!!!"}, {"response": 82, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (13:16)", "body": "Terry....he brought me back. I have been very pre-occuppied putting together the CyberCampus http://cybercampus.ggu.edu Looks like we make hit as hight as 1500 students online this Fall! This will be the beginning of our second fall. Last fall we began with about 150 students. It has been a growing experience. We have even been getting major media coverage."}, {"response": 83, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (13:58)", "body": "What software are you using to pull all this together, Americ?"}, {"response": 84, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (15:22)", "body": "Wow!!! That's quite incredible."}, {"response": 85, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (23:00)", "body": "We are using a fabulous group of people. One great we page designer (Mark) did the font door. Two course designers One help desk person -- not too much support. Three people to administor registration, proctored exams, and marketing. The software for the discussions is WELL Engaged (www.wellengaged.com). We are working on creating a ColdFusion database in the background to provide the instructors with templates for writing their own syllabus and moduls."}, {"response": 86, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (23:06)", "body": "above it is http://www.wellengaged.com"}, {"response": 87, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (00:57)", "body": "So, you're a scientist then, like Ray?"}, {"response": 88, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (09:18)", "body": "i think americ is a philosopher, no?"}, {"response": 89, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (09:40)", "body": "What is the potential for doing this at a State University, like the University of Texas. Should we approach them with the idea of doing this locally in Austin?"}, {"response": 90, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (12:09)", "body": "I tend of myself as a philosopher-scientist-businessperson. Life is a series of experiments. You try things. You are always getting feedback. Sometimes it is what we expected; sometimes it is not what we expected. But, always, there is feedback. I believe that the University of Texas had bought a \"virtual campus\" system from UOL Publishing ( http://www.uol.com) . They are somewhat expensive. But well designed web interfaces. What I focus on is dialogue . That is why the CyberCampus has been moving so fast. I am beginning to get schools that are interested in using the CyberCampus itself to put up the courses -- a major part of which is getting the faculty to understand tha value of doing online dialogue. I ported The WELL discussion culture into online education. Folks, here, at The Spring are part of this same tradition. Terry -- you should check out the people at UofT, Austin and see what is up there. There may be a way for all of us to work together."}, {"response": 91, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (12:13)", "body": "Fix on UOL Publishing: http://www.uol.com"}, {"response": 92, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (12:14)", "body": "I'll put the feelers out."}, {"response": 93, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (17:00)", "body": "Hi Americ! Great to see you again! Congrats on all the success!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (00:02)", "body": "Thank you! all for the warm reception. Terry -- I have never stopped in Texas. Did pass through on AmTrack many years ago. I remember, that it seemed very big..... the train went on forever."}, {"response": 95, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (19:31)", "body": "I don't see much need to get out past the Austin area very much, it's a pretty complete cultural scene here in Austin. Occasional trips to my dads in East Texas and to Houston and Dallas, but not very often. It is a *long* ways across Texas."}, {"response": 96, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (23:14)", "body": "you need to come visit us here in san antonio, terry. a mere hour drive away!"}, {"response": 97, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug 23, 1998 (00:31)", "body": "Is San Antonio also in Texas then? And you're a mexican texican, Ray??? May I (maybe with my sister) come and visit you next year when I go to the spring party?"}, {"response": 98, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sun, Aug 23, 1998 (15:46)", "body": "but of course! SA and Austin are neighbors and it would be a shame for you to not see beautiful san antonio if you are so close!"}, {"response": 99, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Aug 23, 1998 (16:34)", "body": "i like visiting san antonio. in fact, i'll be there in january sometime for a month long class. when is the big spring party?"}, {"response": 100, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Aug 23, 1998 (22:37)", "body": "Big Spring Party. Please explain. Is this like the monthly WELL parties?"}, {"response": 101, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Aug 24, 1998 (00:39)", "body": "Terry just said there would be a big spring party to mark the beginning of spring next year - and Mike and I (wonder where/how he is) have decided to go together."}, {"response": 102, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Aug 24, 1998 (10:18)", "body": "We have one every year, about 80 or so folks show up. This year should be even bigger."}, {"response": 103, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Aug 24, 1998 (21:07)", "body": "Yeah, looks like you can plan on around 82. :-)"}, {"response": 104, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (00:52)", "body": "You coming, Autumn???? That would be great! I wish ALL of us would come - we'd have a ball!"}, {"response": 105, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (01:17)", "body": "That would be very fine, indeed. I visited with Jonathon tonight, who I build and maintain the Childrenstory and tvpc websites for, and he, Mary and son William are headed off to England for a couple of weeks. Lucky him!"}, {"response": 106, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (01:24)", "body": "Not with the weather we (and they've) been having! Still envy him, though."}, {"response": 107, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (20:56)", "body": "So what is the whether like out there in the Spring?"}, {"response": 108, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (22:48)", "body": "oh so hot and humid!!!!!"}, {"response": 109, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (23:39)", "body": "It's cooling down to the nineties these days. We had a month of hundreds!"}, {"response": 110, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (00:52)", "body": "The satanist is back!!! Where have you been, muffin?"}, {"response": 111, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (10:46)", "body": "dazed and confused? (actually closer to stressed and confused)"}, {"response": 112, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (11:25)", "body": "Under a lot of pressure at work? Why confused?"}, {"response": 113, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (11:43)", "body": "yes auto-head games"}, {"response": 114, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (11:47)", "body": "how do those go?"}, {"response": 115, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (11:50)", "body": "usually, downhill..."}, {"response": 116, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (13:22)", "body": "Not good. Anything you can do about it?"}, {"response": 117, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (13:26)", "body": "lobotomy?"}, {"response": 118, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (13:53)", "body": "No. But you could talk to us if you felt like it. I don't make much of a shrink, but I do care - and many of the others DO make good shrinks. ANd the best thing: you don't have to pay them for listening!"}, {"response": 119, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (14:33)", "body": "I shall MAKE him pay... (oops! wrong conference, get up off of your hands and knees WER, here lemme dust you off!)"}, {"response": 120, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Aug 27, 1998 (01:03)", "body": "How did you want to make him pay? You wanted to beat him to death with a lock of hair? He should be so lucky!"}, {"response": 121, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Aug 27, 1998 (11:05)", "body": "into submission..."}, {"response": 122, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Aug 27, 1998 (11:11)", "body": "Doubt if it will take even that!"}, {"response": 123, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Aug 27, 1998 (11:18)", "body": "I wonder what he'd think if the two of us started whacking him with locks of hair!??!"}, {"response": 124, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Aug 27, 1998 (23:45)", "body": "If Americ would only join in on it with a few of his own locks, well, I say turn it into a musical. I'm already lookin' at from the couch, in a theater....enthralled.... the applause from all around me is practically deafening. How did I get so lucky to even obtain a ticket to this Broadway show....?"}, {"response": 125, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Aug 28, 1998 (00:19)", "body": "...there's no business like show business... and show business is no business at all!..."}, {"response": 126, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Aug 28, 1998 (00:20)", "body": "Just picked up at tape of Alan Watts' old 60's radio shows, called \"Zen and the Beat Way\". Really cool stuff. Might want to check out http://www.alanwatts.com"}, {"response": 127, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Thu, Jul 13, 2000 (05:59)", "body": "Cool stuff, Americ!"}, {"response": 128, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Jul 13, 2000 (09:28)", "body": "It really is cool. Life is better when we are aware of who we really are."}, {"response": 129, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Jul 13, 2000 (12:34)", "body": "Got that right. Took me a while, though. We have pretenses for others and we hope they suffice. I like being me much better. I am far better at it anyway!"}, {"response": 130, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Jul 14, 2000 (11:32)", "body": "To be ourselves, to know that we are, exit this moment now . Is the greatest gift. I honor you here now as you are. It does seem to take constand rememberance."}, {"response": 131, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Jul 14, 2000 (12:47)", "body": "Yes, constant remembrance is most necessary, lest we lapse back into who we wish others to think we are. I honor you for the insightful honest man you are. At all times, as far as I can tell. Your philosophy has much to recommend it!"}, {"response": 132, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (04:10)", "body": "To know that we ARE lapsing back into not being ourselves but being a mirror of who we think others want us to be, we must first KNOW ourselves. This is a perennial quest perhaps, and one that we never complete, because we ourselves are constantly evolving and growing. Who am I?? A fundemantal human question, and one that certain personality types can become almost obssesed with. The challenge is to balance the quest for knowing ourselves with actually living ... 'having a life' as my kids say. Self-awareness can be scarey. As soon as we STOP and look internally, we often don't like what we see. Much of our perception of 'self' is fed by the reflected perceptions that others give us. These perceptions can be distorted, as in a a fairground 'funny' mirror, but have great influence in our lives when they come from significant people. Sorry, lots of thoughts sparked off - I'll stop before I bore everyone."}, {"response": 133, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (11:54)", "body": "Not at all Maggie! When we first look inside we see mostly memories, fears of the future and past, and impressions of what others want us to be due to their memories and fears. What we really are may be none of that. All these memories, etc. a are contained in the larger framework of pure light of awareness itself. Awareness/existence itself...a sense of just being.... if pure. There is a freedom and openness from this perspective that is quite charming."}, {"response": 134, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (14:56)", "body": "Your charming perspective comes with age and accomplishment and hard-won self confidence...at least, in my case. It is a serene feeling where few of the fears we dealt with in younger years are put aside. I rather like it."}, {"response": 135, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (15:23)", "body": "Reading through this entire topic has given me pangs of loss (William. Jim and Ree) and more insight into the man whose topic this is. Whatever happened to your teaching, Americ? Publishing? I do know you are working on a book. Is it your first (or do I need to read back through this again?!)"}, {"response": 136, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (23:01)", "body": "I have not published a \"real\" book. But, I have at several points in my life written newspaper columns for small papers and magazines. None of that is happening at this time. I have been locked up in the world of computer technology most of this time. Having become an expert in the field of e-learning (or online education & training, to be exact). But, suddenly, I have this urge to teach philosophy and wisdom -- I cannot explain why. Just seems to want to happen. I did publish on the web a few of my writings at: The Eye of the Paradox . Much of it actually written about 8 years ago. So I now feel like I have gone beyond some of it. You must be a writer yourself. ???? Certainly, you are very present in this medium with me."}, {"response": 137, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (23:25)", "body": "Most of Geo was written by me in one way or another. I graduated from college with a double degree in Journalism and earth sciences so I could pursue a technical writing career. I married and did research for my then husband who was a college professor. So, I am a researcher, tech writer and I do some editing when called upon. Thanks for the hot link to your past writings. I will take their age into account. I am delighed someone who converses is back amongst us. it is a lonely business posting monologues day after day - or worse, cuting and pasting boring stuff."}, {"response": 138, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (23:27)", "body": "Let me know where you are teaching and I will sit at your feet and learn. I am delighted to find you are so willing to share your thoughts with us again. Where do I sign up?!"}, {"response": 139, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (23:52)", "body": "I wish your father had brought you to Hawaii. A large percentage of our population is of Portuguese descent - mostly from Madeira. They hired on as sugar cane workers and other labor, but you would not have felt as odd here. There are still local festivals honoring those immigrants and their descendants, and we eat a lot of food created by these warm and friendly people. I understand about your oddness. I can see it here in new Southeast Asians entering the United States through the State of Hawaii. Aloha!"}, {"response": 140, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Jul 16, 2000 (09:50)", "body": "I developed the architecture for Golden Gate University's CyberCampus . These days, I continue to teach a course on \"Internet Marketing Through Virtual Communities\" in that online program. Meanwhile, I am teaching this summer a course (at Dominican University of California) face-to-face on \"Eastern Philosophy and Religion\" which I really enjoy so much now. In the Fall, I will teach (also at Dominican) a course on \"Introduction to the e-World\". So which island are you on?"}, {"response": 141, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Jul 16, 2000 (13:13)", "body": "The Big Island of Hawaii where Kilauea Volcano is erupting gently and steadily. I perused your CV last night and came away very impressed with your accomplishments. Some day I will ask you how/why you learned Sanskrit... Nothing like teaching to a live audience. I've done both and feedback is what it is all about! Next week I will be close to you visiting my son but with little time to check out much besides Geology. He is a geologist and knows his Mom's preference to head away from human creation and head for God's."}, {"response": 142, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Jul 17, 2000 (22:12)", "body": "God's creation; human's creation. These days they are starting to seem the same. We are God's creation; and our power to create is also God's creation. It does take a lot of love to appreciate the difficult learning path we are on as creators, however. I have four children by blood; one by step-hood; three grandchildren; and a godson. They are all a blessing. So much to learn from them all."}, {"response": 143, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Mon, Jul 17, 2000 (23:25)", "body": "Children are the little wise beings into whose life we intrude. The bring us love and life boundlessly; curiousity and elan in equal measure. From their presence we learn humility, pride in its purest form, joy, pleasure of simple things, and so many other excellent qualities. With wisdom and patience we learn not to make them conform to our strictures, but to loosen ours to allow us to learn once again what it is to be truly free. I have one son. He is the best thing I ever did in my life and he has been a source of greatness in me if there is any."}, {"response": 144, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Jul 22, 2000 (12:58)", "body": "In Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind I hear that we must go from: Enlightenment to Practice to Thinking in that order. That way our thinking will be in alignment with our practice and our practice with our enlightenment. But, if you the other way, staring with thinking, you will never get to enlightenment."}, {"response": 145, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, Jul 22, 2000 (16:10)", "body": "Mmm, maybe that's where I am going wrong with my thesis - too much thinking and too little enlightenment. *grin* (sorry it's late, and I'm feeling kinda kooky)"}, {"response": 146, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Jul 22, 2000 (19:16)", "body": "Tomorrow we head for the High Sierra and the Giant Sequoia. There I shall find enlightenment. Aloha, Americ!"}, {"response": 147, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Sep  3, 2000 (11:08)", "body": "So....are you back now!"}, {"response": 148, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Sep  3, 2000 (16:09)", "body": "I am...and am remiss for not posting the pictures (or some thereof) yet. I am trying to justify my preference for the company of magestic stands of trees to humans. There must be a genetic anomoly in my ancestry. Trees, alas, do not return the hugs!"}, {"response": 149, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Wed, Jan 17, 2001 (21:30)", "body": "How was your trip to the High Sierra and Giant Sequoia last July, Marci? philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 20, "subject": "Men are from Mars", "response_count": 60, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (15:17)", "body": "don't think it's necessarily a male gender problem but the whole hypocrisy thing has GOT to go. Don't tell me I'm inconsistent and run hot cold when you are a stranger to follow through and falter with the seasons. (maybe this should be considered venting... sorry guys) I'm mad and sad and really too busy to put up with bs that's just bringing me down."}, {"response": 2, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (15:29)", "body": "You SAY you want to hear about our day, but then act annoyed if it can't be summed up in 2 sentences...meanwhile, we have to listen to all your boring work stories...no fair!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (17:08)", "body": "you have one like that too?!?! (oh already I feel better!) (something about just knowing your relationship is NOT the MOST dysfunctional and abnormal!)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (18:44)", "body": "and why is it that the rules are different? how come it's ok if I'm running late but not if he is? (and we drive in the same d--- car?) I even switched my hours to accomodate him."}, {"response": 5, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (00:46)", "body": "(autumn, you really should get a handle on that anger... you're kinda scaring me:) sorry you guys are feeling mad and sad and stuff... just don't be so passive... for all the frigging talk i've endured from women over the years about things i've done, or things i didn't do, about motives and intentions and (oh god) \"feelings\"- it's always mystified me how indirect and sideways feminine logic can be... if you're pissed off because something i did made you late for work, say something about it (and say it THEN, please)... don't wait till like a week later, and i'm playing poker with my friends or something, and then start some kitchen crisis thing about how i don't really care about your feeeeelings... and if you're really pissed, say so- and say it in a way i'll understand... don't maintain this facade of calm, gentle reason, if you don't really mean it... 'cause i, like most guys, i think, will take you at your word... i don't analyze what you said, and interpret it through some special knowledge- which each of you apparently intrinsically possesses- of the secret meanings of words... if you say it's not a big deal, i believe that, dope that i am... and when, in the middle of a peaceful sleep 2 weeks later, and i am jarred awake by the godawful, fingernails-on-a- chalkboard sound of feminine bleating and wailing, i'll have no idea what you're wailing about (even after you've told me i don't care about your feeeeeelings... will still require a little more specificity... and even then i may've forgotten the whole damn thing... because that's what i do when an incident is over... forget about it... foreign concept to most of you, i know)... uh, anyway... thank you for listening... (ready for my beating now...)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (17:01)", "body": "what did you say? *grin*"}, {"response": 7, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (17:10)", "body": "*laugh* with the image of you cowering, I wouldn't have the heart to chastize. BTW, if you men take everything for what it's worth then why the heck do we have so many misunderstandings? I ask a question, you think I'm asking because I'm dissatisfied with this or that, get mad and it's all over. OR, a classic, you've upset me, I've let it be known, then you're pissed (and take it out on me) because you didn't mean to make me angry. I'm all for the get it out then but, c'mon, do you really ever let it go? You don't remember a lot of things (anniversaries, big days, my favorite flower (or that I like them at all) but you sure remember the time I told you that you were inconsistent and will continue to throw it into my face at will until something better (as ammunition) comes along. I did once hear what I believe to be a truism... women forgive and never forget men forget and don't know how to forgive and since this is a female venting column... I have no fears of repercussions *nasty grin* (can't really feel nasty towards you, nick. sorry, I know that's have the thrill for you!)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (18:20)", "body": "I think my husband is definitely for the facade of calm, gentle reason, but I just can't let things go...I have to express my \"feelings\" at that moment, no matter how much tension it will create. I must say that's one of the benefits of having children; they take the edge off the intensity of the spousal relationship. Their very presence acts as a buffer."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (20:37)", "body": "Know that feeling (Stacey and Autumn). Another one I can't figure out is (now let me give you a set up). Think Nick likes \"abuse\" we're in the car (he's driving). A car slows way the hell down in front of us, I look over at him (of course, ready to slam the oh shit break) and he sees this from the corner of his eye and says \"I saw the car\" in an annoyed tone. Next minute, another car does the same thing and I say nothing and he says \"Why didn't you tell me that car was slowing down?\" Catch 22, wouldn't you say? I'm a venter, that's true. A door slammer and holleror, but no bite. Can clam it up in a hurry too (in more ways than one). Well, there goes that wonderful image I of myself! *giggle*"}, {"response": 10, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (01:28)", "body": "sometimes misunderstandings are caused by a fundamental difference in point of view, i think... does the fact that i'm not always focused on your feelings- meaning that i don't filter every thing i think or say through my (probably erroneous, anyway) perception of what your feelings might be- mean that i don't care about them? so, like, when i answer your dissatisfaction with irritation, you take it for anger (when it's not that at all... it's just an instinctive reaction to entering the realm of \"i can't win, so why bother?\")... and sometimes, i can just plain be in a bad mood (as can you)... one difference, though- when you're in a bad mood, i don't analyze and/or assign motives to it... (i write it off, as a bad mood... and find cover as soon as possible... good time to pick up that really slow-rising bread at the bakery down the block, across the street from the tavern... which is as good a place to wait for it as any)... it's like, i don't hold you responsible for your foul moods (only human, right?)... but nearly every woman i've been with applies deep motives to mine (which are rare, believe it or not, and consist only of a desire to be left alone for awhile... and maybe just a little sarcasm... can be rather disposed toward that)... and you have no idea how frustrating the \"unintentional upset\" thing can be... it's like, i have a hard enough time as it is, you know, convincing you that i'm one thing (one image, that i know you expect)- and then going out to war, basically, every day... making a living in a world which compels me to be entirely another thing 8, 10, 14 hours a day (because all those things you love me for mean zero out there)... how can you not expect some kind of residual impact? even some difficulty sometimes \"changing gears\", or whatever... seems like the least i can expect (and you, too, of course) is the benefit of the doubt... the inclination to believe that i wouldn't hurt you on purpose (which oughta mean a hell of a lot... shouldn't it?)... regarding the letting go, thing... i think that's probably right... but it's not necessarily a matter of not forgiving... i think it's more like we're harder to hurt, but when you've really drawn blood, the hurt stays with us longer, and maybe even deeper... remember, we're conditioned from the time we're born to shake things off... just makes sense that that kind of thinking can intensify pain, in the end... (however, nurturing resentment from being called \"inconsistent\" does seem a bit much... think i'd have to let that one slide, or maybe take it as a compliment... or maybe fire back, \"not always!\" and leave it at that)... and any guy that actually forgets birthdays, anniverseries, etc... is asking for/ultimately deserves his inevitable demise... that's pretty basic stuff (covered first day, relat.101), as are flowers, especially your favorite flowers... every woman should be able to count on that stuff... oh, and regarding the \"benefits of having children\" thing, i have to agree... they do make excellent butlers..."}, {"response": 11, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (12:47)", "body": "don't need a buffer THAT bad. The kittens are at least a distraction. *smile*"}, {"response": 12, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (18:16)", "body": "You guys don't know what the hell you're complaining about. I HAVE TWO SETS OF OUT-LAWS!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (21:59)", "body": "*laugh* and does your husband feel the same?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (03:55)", "body": "Yeah, thank God, otherwise it would in my opinion be ground for divorce AND I'd sue him for a million in compensation for irritation endurance! No, we feel the same about all the foul out-laws. With his real parents and mine, we both hate my father and his mother. So, once Mr. C came up with this one: My father and his mother would be the perfect match for one another - he'd have a reason to booze, and she'd have a reason to suffer! HA-HA! I thought that rather a sharp little comment."}, {"response": 15, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (11:42)", "body": "We have a tyrant and a martyr in the family (married to each other), and it doesn't seem to work as well as you'd think...."}, {"response": 16, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (12:55)", "body": "Ha-ha! Sad, isn't it? That people can be so appalling, they don't even appeal to others as appalling as themselves!!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (12:57)", "body": "Oh heck, Autumn - these two people don't happen to be your parents, do they? If so, I'm really sorry; I did not mean to offend. I just don't have much sympathy for martyrs and tyrants. They're too much of a bore."}, {"response": 18, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (17:43)", "body": "ROTFLOL! No! *shudder*"}, {"response": 19, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (00:49)", "body": "Oh good! I find it a little interesting that there is a topic, called 'men are from mars', and not one entitled, 'women are from the moon'. I guess they have nothing to complain about, right?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:26)", "body": "Riette, the phrase is from a book title... Men are from Mars, Women from Venus. I think the author's last name is Gray. A funny book with many sequels discussing the differences between men and women and how they can better relate to one another."}, {"response": 21, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (19:04)", "body": "And every single copy sold to a woman...."}, {"response": 22, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (21:15)", "body": "(not so...)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (02:02)", "body": "HA-Ha! I'll order it from Amazon.com. and place it under my husband's pillow - then pretend he's been bewitched by it, and understands me perfectly. Oh, the beauty of being truthful to oneself . . ."}, {"response": 24, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (02:07)", "body": "HA-Ha! I'll order it from Amazon.com. and place it under my husband's pillow - then pretend he's been bewitched by it, and understands me perfectly."}, {"response": 25, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (09:46)", "body": "Oops . . . I seem to be echoeing all over the place today."}, {"response": 26, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (22:15)", "body": "Wer, I applaud your interest in relationship dynamics. It seems most men don't want to go there..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (01:09)", "body": "Wer is a feminist."}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (17:36)", "body": "Au contraire... WER would like to be locked in a closet with a feminist and try and discover the key to making women happy, healthy, extremely sexual beings without pissing them off! (I suppose most men secretly want this no matter how obnoxiously insensitive they can appear at times)"}, {"response": 29, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:31)", "body": "HA-HA! I'm sure you're right, as far as the 'exremely sexual beings' is concerned anyway . . ."}, {"response": 30, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (22:13)", "body": "speaking of insensitive (sorry, ladies, but I'm butting in again), I do believe in equality until it is proven that one isn't, but that generally has nothing to do with one's age, sex, race, etc. However, I refuse to listen to raving feminists unless they answer the following question with a yes (for United States women, that is): Have you written your congressmen and demanded that women be part of the draft? If they say yes, I will listen to them until their throats are raw and support them every step of the way. If, however, they say no, then they can lick my masculinity before I listen to another word, because they are wanting more than they are willing to pay for. This does not mean that I support the military and/or war, just that if you are an obvious hypocrite, please do not waste both of our's time. In general, however, I both expect the same level of performance from everyone, and give everyone equal opportunity to excel or fail to the level of their abilities. and, yes, I do love intelligent thought provoking discourse, continuing self-education, and human sexuality because I am curious to a fault and and will almost always answer whatever someone asks because too much is held secret and/or obscured with religion in a part of human interaction that is so necessary to a person who wants to function in society I missed out on a lot of socialization over the years and am unable to integrate into \"normal\" activities because of that, and sex is one of the areas that I can socially talk in without accute and painful self-awareness or with an air of condescension on my part because I am attempting to compensate for my lack of formal education and/or social inclusion"}, {"response": 31, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (22:21)", "body": "wow WER, thank you for the honest discourse. For the record, even when we aren't speaking of sex, I do find you extremely stimulating. I like the fact you don't hide the dark regions of your heart/mind (at least not all of them) because your sincerity helps me reason with the notion, I have similar emotional/mental/philosophical black holes. When we talk I feel both normal and unique. And I am grateful for both sensations."}, {"response": 32, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, May 25, 1998 (20:11)", "body": "thank you (I'll be leaving again, and as I said earlier, sorry for the interruption, ladies)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, May 31, 1998 (00:53)", "body": "People, I have just made a most hilarious discovery about Mr. C. For over four years now I have been wondering about the very strange noises coming from the bathroom when he is in there. Yesterday I discovered the answer: he gurgles with his shower water. The strange noises are, of course, produced when he doesn't catch that many drops or when they get stuck in his throat - and all this time I've been on the verge of calling a doctor, thinking he might be choking or having a heart attack or something. What a relief! And not."}, {"response": 34, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (21:27)", "body": "Mr. S. literally clips his fingernails every other day. It took me about 2 years of marriage to figure out what that \"ping pinging\" sound was coming from the bathroom..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (01:45)", "body": "HA-HA!!! Why are men so disgusting? I mean, they fart, they burp, and my brother can play the Namibian anthem with his armpit. WHY?!?!?!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (09:25)", "body": "They are more in harmony with their bodies and their many functions--they embrace themselves and we repress our functions. What does that say about us? (How does the Namibian anthem go, anyway?)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (13:15)", "body": "We're civilized? I think I'm pretty much in touch with my body, but I never feel the urge to fart and burp in front of others - I'd NEVER stop blushing again! As far as the Namibian anthem is concerned - I've heard the armpit version so often, I don't know the words anymore. The armpit version goes something like this: no, shit, there aren't letters for the armpit version. I suppose it sounds a little like someone farting in time to a Jimmy Sommerville balad."}, {"response": 38, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (20:55)", "body": "Oh, the guys there must love it!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun  4, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "Oh, I'm sure. Though I must confess, when I was a kid I took part in many a burping competition against my brother and sister. I can make burps that come straight from the stomach like a lion's roar. My brother taught me them. But I never do it in company anymore, only when I'm hugely frustrated. The one time I did it in front of Mr. C. he was stunned for three days."}, {"response": 40, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jun  4, 1998 (09:10)", "body": "when your men shave... do you end up with the same detached soapy hair ring in your sink that I have in mine? Mr. B is a stickler about rinsing out the sink after he brushes his teeth but would leave a beard ring for days I think."}, {"response": 41, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun  4, 1998 (09:32)", "body": "No, thank God. That's what I love most about Mr. C. He wears a full beard. (no, he does not look like AL) And he clips it over the loo, so we're alright. He even puts the seat down after he's had a wee, so he has his good points. I just love bearded men . . ."}, {"response": 42, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun  4, 1998 (09:33)", "body": "Ha-ha, loving the M.I.B. Men In Beards."}, {"response": 43, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jun  5, 1998 (21:39)", "body": "Never liked the beards..."}, {"response": 44, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jun  6, 1998 (01:29)", "body": "I like lots and lots of hair, especially beards - they tickle. I really don't like men with beautiful faces though; I find a rough, ugly face much more appealing - it's so masculine. Am I sick?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jun  7, 1998 (21:11)", "body": "I like more of a rugged look too--can't stand that prettyboy, Tom Cruise look!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (09:24)", "body": "For as much as I hear women complaining about the 'scratchy' 5 o'clock shadow or a few days growth... I enjoy the roughness... in certain places!"}, {"response": 47, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (19:00)", "body": "*wink wink*"}, {"response": 48, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 11, 1998 (01:11)", "body": "I second AND third that!"}, {"response": 49, "author": "CotC", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (16:16)", "body": "My Goodness! I don't really know if all the things y'all are complaining about (many of them valid) have to do just with men. Don't same sex couples, triples, etc. have many of the same problems? Can't anything become annoying, then infuriating, and finally enraging if you have to put up with it long enough (like, Oh, say, the Wife's inability to learn to replace an empty roll of toilet paper in the last SIXTEEN YEARS!!!!!)?... :_)"}, {"response": 50, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (23:05)", "body": "Maybe It's me, but I did not see any complaints in the three responses prior to number 49."}, {"response": 51, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (00:52)", "body": "TommyCotC, you sound so HAPPY!!! How are things?? Tim, you should see some of the other responses! We were complaining ourselves into a coma!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (00:58)", "body": "OH sorry I only paged back a little way."}, {"response": 53, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (19:16)", "body": "Gotta read it all Tim, if you want the 'Big Picture'"}, {"response": 54, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (21:56)", "body": "Yeah I forget to go far enough back sometimes. makes for some really funny answers."}, {"response": 55, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Sat, Jan 20, 2001 (12:24)", "body": ""}, {"response": 56, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Jan 20, 2001 (23:10)", "body": "See? They post something and I haven't a clue what it means...! A Marcian from Venus..."}, {"response": 57, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Fri, Mar 30, 2001 (09:09)", "body": ""}, {"response": 58, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Fri, Mar 30, 2001 (11:10)", "body": ""}, {"response": 59, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Jun 21, 2001 (03:32)", "body": "I've gone deaf and blind...and I thought Ihad oly lost my buttons and bars!"}, {"response": 60, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, Jun 30, 2001 (10:02)", "body": "curiouser and curiouser ..... philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 21, "subject": "ATHEISM", "response_count": 172, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (09:29)", "body": "dunno, philosophy brings me closer to my belief....."}, {"response": 2, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (10:41)", "body": "What difference does it make whether or not gods exist?"}, {"response": 3, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (14:26)", "body": "Wolf: what belief? Well, Wer, I don't know about you, but I rather love this life. Thinking that a superior Being exists, makes the necessity to die some day somehow more bearable. Or does the thought of dying and there being nothing and no-one after this make you happy and content? PS: Why do you call yourself Kitchen Manager anyway - or does that not make a difference either?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (00:43)", "body": "If I'm dead, what do I care? or, why should I care? and/or if being with your god is so cool, why aren't there more people dying to be with theirs? ps--it's my current job, my life..."}, {"response": 5, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (02:32)", "body": "o man, take care. what does the deep midnight declare? i was asleep; and from a deep sleep i woke, and swear: the world is deep. deep is it's woe. and joy, deeper still. woe implores- go! but all joy wants eternity. wants deep wants deep eternity. (nietzche) (that's why, i think)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (03:51)", "body": "Kitchen Man, why in the hell are you such a sceptic? I mean, if you did truly think, that there were no such thing as God, why should you trouble yourself to contradict me so cruelly? Don't get me wrong. I don't go to church, I have not the faintest idea what or who God is, and I am essentially against fixed religion - I think it very dangerous. And I'm certainly not dying to go ANYWHERE. I'm sure it is as natural to die, as it is to be born; and to a little infant perhaps, the one is as painful as the other, but I admit that I fear death as children fear the dark. I suppose seeing people weep for their loved-ones shows death to be terrible - it clouds the fact of it with vanity a d superstition. I am a very happy person, I love my work, I love the joys and sorrows of Life. That is why I need to know there is something or someone on the other side."}, {"response": 7, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (07:37)", "body": "So you're a Relativist, Riette? You believe in some \"superior being\" but that being is different for everyone, yes? Let's get the intellectual guns out for the suicide show."}, {"response": 8, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (07:40)", "body": ":Don't get me wrong. I don't go to church, I have not the faintest idea what or :who God is, and I am essentially against fixed religion i'm going to open a new topic about the \"danger\" of religion"}, {"response": 9, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (12:53)", "body": "I think we'll have to wait till tonight. Riette may be a night being. It's great she's jumping in to this conference with so much enthusiasm."}, {"response": 10, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (14:53)", "body": "Hi, boys! Yes, I suppose I am a Relativist. I feel that giving the Being we all call God a definite identity is discriminate. I was brought up in a very rigid religious atmosphere where there was only one God, namely the Christians' God. All those who believed in another kind of God was destined for hell. Well, if Heaven is the place where people who only believe in the blue-eyed, fair-haired Jesus, then I'd rather go to hell with all the other normal people. I mean, how can you say the Jews, or Muslims or Buddhists are wrong? Or right, for th t matter. What arrogance to think we can pin God down! Yet, what arrogance to think we little humans need only our selfish selves."}, {"response": 11, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (17:50)", "body": "So in being a relativist, you shy away from certainties of faith? Are you certain you're a relativist? Jesus was a historical, living man, having neither blue eyes nor fair hair, being born a Jew. If people attach certain positive qualities that they believe to him, then fair enough I guess - but don't go spreading it around too much. However, seeing as this is the Philosophy conference, I can spleen-vent on this (joy!) If people attach, say, blue n fair to Jesus, then one could say that the whole Jesus concept it delusional since he is \"appearing\" to different people as different thing. That's fair enough. Now reverse it. Jesus is revealing himself to different people in many different ways, each unique and tuned to that person's exact need; since all people are different, this makes more sense than a two-dimensional \"one image\" concept, yes? What arrogance to think we can pin God down! Too right! Is Christianity a pinning down of God? Hardly. Most church services I go to usually have something about not putting \"God in a box\". If God is infinite, then he is entirely non-sensical, since infinity is a no-win concept in four-dimensional space (new topic coming there, I think...). Therefore, if he's infinite and non-sensical, we can only go on what he's done. There's a good amount of evidence to show that he turned up on Earth a while back, and did quite a lot of cool, unexplainable (b normal means) things, claimed to be the son of God. So we nailed him to a tree, as he predicted. Then he popped up again, in a flash manner, and then disappeared in a double-flash manner. That, therefore, is not us pinning him down, but him pinning himself down. What a concept to think that God would exist without pointing out to everyone that he was around."}, {"response": 12, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (01:56)", "body": "You give me a great many things to think about, Mike. I'm not sure whether we should carry this discussion on here, or in the religion topic, though. Perhaps I shy away from certain certainties of faith, because I am a Relativist. I hope I do not shock you by saying that sometimes I just wish I were a heathen, because the quarrels and divisions about religion and faith are evils unknown to them. It is important to me that there IS a God out there. I do believe the New Testament more or less, but I certainly do not believe it to be the one and only ultimate Book. I think if one becomes too certain of a certain way of worshipping, you become self-righteous, and that is the last thing I want to be. All I see myself fit to accomplish, is to try and be generous and goodwilled (though I often lack both) so that my life will not be a miserable waste in the end, but I need the protection of a divine Being, a kind of gathered force and drive in my life, which my own human nature in itself could never obtain. As far as the blond-haired, blue-eyed Jesus is concerned; the reason why I was being so ironic, is because I know he must have been exactly the opposite, yet that is the way he was depicted in the Children's Bible from which I had to read every night. If you grow up with an image like that you think: Well, if Jesus was white as me, then I must come directly from him, and therefore I am superior to others - after all, my Jesus was like me. That is why I am against a fixed image of God - no matter how w ll painted or sculptured, it is always, always a distortion of what the truth must be to suit our human fancies. In the same breath I must confess that I have just completed a large painting of the Last Supper for an exhibition I'm holding the end of the year - and my Jesus is as imperfect as any other . . . I must think more about the subject though - I cannot answer it just like that without making a fool of myself. I have to think about your comments on the non-sensical comments. Trying to convert me, are you?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (05:10)", "body": "Good heavens, Mike, I just read your response again. Where on EARTH did you see/hear evidence that Jesus turned up, whas nailed to a tree, AND DISSAPPEARED IN A DOUBLE-FLASH MANNER?!?! Where was this supposed to happen? You sure it wasn't just someone with very big flash on his camera - Lord Snowdon perhaps? See, that sort of sensationalism does not exist in my Relativist world. All is very personal, very solemn, very unremarkable perhaps. I have even, just this weekend at an art vernisage, heard some artist going through his 'white' phase claim that Mary Magdalene was the bride of Christ . . . What human fancies will dream up next I wonder."}, {"response": 14, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (17:56)", "body": "read one of the gospels and try explain jesus ascending to heaven as anything other than \"double flash\"."}, {"response": 15, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (18:21)", "body": "darn. pressed the Submit button before I was ready. as for evidence to him having \"turned up, been nailed to a tree\" etc., read some secular histories based on first-person sources around the time. also, he's mentioned in the Qur'An. many people try and explain away jesus as just \"a very good teacher\" or \"another prophet\", but this simply does not work. either what he said was true or it was crap - there is no in between. jesus claimed to be none other than the son of God, along with all of his other teaching, so either he was telling the truth in all of it, or it was all a load of rubbish. no grey areas, just black and white. your adherence to Relativism seems unusual, Riette, since Relativism is a circular, self-defeating concept. a Relativist is a person who believes in there being no absolutes - no absolute values, no absolute truths. yet, this very stance is an absolute - \"I absolutely believe there to be no absolute truth\". therefore a Relativist can dismiss the idea of absolutes no more than anyone else, since Relativism demands that the Relativist admits \"truth for some\" in absolutes. which brings another problem. an absolute is exactly that - something which negates something else. this is not allowed by relativism, since Relativism says that absolutes are not allowed; yet it must allow absolutes, since it is Relativism. Relativism contradicts Aristotle's principle of non-contradiction (that a statement cannot be both true and false simultaneously). That's enough Relativistic theory, how about a Relativistic application? The capital of France, to me, is Paris. However, as a Relativist, you could claim that the capital of France - for you - is Rome. That is a direct application of Relativism. But it's wrong, yes? The fact is that we are responding to a real world out there, not creating our own reality. As for me trying to convert you, Riette, I'm just stating the facts and the evidence; however you choose to respond to them is exactly that - your choice. for me, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of one absolute God. carrying this further, which is off topic, points very much toward Jesus."}, {"response": 16, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (22:55)", "body": "are you a Protestant then, Mike? which flavor?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (15:11)", "body": "Mike, you never cease to amaze me. I now see why this discussion is probably never going to come to an end - except perhaps if we were to meet so that you could see how ordinary I am, that I am no weir extremist! The big difference between our opinions is that you see things black and white, whereas I see black and white and grey. I shall submit my response bit by bit, because my computer is being a real pain with the connection today . . ."}, {"response": 18, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (15:14)", "body": "To me being a Relativist is not as plain as a black letter drawn upon a white sheet of paper. I think the main problem with the black and white approach to matters, is that one sees not the finer, and often important details of the bigger picture. Don't get me wrong: i certainly do not go around questioning everything in my path - I just try to keep an open mind, that's all."}, {"response": 19, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (15:17)", "body": "Saying that relativism has no absolutes is in itself an absolute too, you know, and so I cannot help but disagree. One must be willing to look beyond the simple meaning of the words written so plainly in philosophy dictionaries or even by great philosophers. This is how I look at it: The word 'Relativity' can be connected with many positive words, such as 'correlation', 'interconnection', 'assosiation' and 'approximation'. And that is what is is: not questioning and just not believing things that are obvious to the naked eye anyway, but a certain ALLOWANCE for matters that aren't quite so plain. I mean, for me to claim that Rome was the capital of France would be merely stupid, not in ANY way Relativist or an application of that term; and your very suggestion that it might, insults my intelligence."}, {"response": 20, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (15:19)", "body": "I can assure you that my world is no less real, and perhaps even more so, than yours: I shop, I wash, I cook, I work, eat and sleep, and make love to my husband. I don't question any of it, I hold them dear - they are not meaningless fragments of my relativist imagination at all - it is simply so."}, {"response": 21, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (15:52)", "body": "I too believe in you Bible, yes, every word of it - the New Testament, that is - but nothing, no-one will ever move me to exclamations of invalue or, even worse, Falsities with regard to the Koran or any other book of belief by a different culture. They are merely different. To you God is the holy Trinity. To certain tribes in Africa, like the bushman, God was at first a mortal like us, and then was cast into the heavans by the trickster god, Karatuma, where He became divine. To the Jews Jesus is yet o come. Are you so arrogant that you cannot allow for God's greatness? The mighty force, the great complicatedness of His very nature? How can you for one moment suggest that He be so simple, so vile as to care about the stories made up about Him in order to make him REAL to us? How can you pretend to see through those mighty eyes? It is the fruits of the belief that counts - and is it not remarkable how those fruits seem to be the same throughout the world with all its different cultures and beliefs, namely oodwill, kindness, generosity, care, affection towards others? Are these things not a great deal more important than our petty human differences on how it all came to be?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (22:09)", "body": "very interesting... I prefer to stay away from organized religion and avoid frustrating cyclical arguements such as this (actually I relish the arguement but I believe their is no 'universal truth' to be discovered) Speaking of Truth... sounds like some of you have differing opinions on the subject when a god is mentioned? What say ye??? BTW, I believe in energy. And in matter. And in the spirit. For me it comes together in a way I never \"expect\" others to understand."}, {"response": 23, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (22:16)", "body": "so explain anyway, and let's see if any of us can grasp it"}, {"response": 24, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (04:01)", "body": "Ag, who cares whether they understand or not, Stacey? As long as our Truths and opinions don't hurt others, it cannot possibly be judged negatively. I think religion and atheism interesting and challenging subjects of conversation, ones that will never become exhausted, but I agree with you: the Truth of the matter is that it is beyond any of us. Explain to me about energy, matter and the spirit - it would interest me, and I think, appeal."}, {"response": 25, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:29)", "body": "well there is a law in physics that states matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Matter, when it 'disappears' can be transformed into energy. Of course it makes sense to think that when we 'die' our bodies trade one form of matter for another in the decomposition process, but where does our spiritual/emotional energy go? Blah, blah, blah... I could go on and on about my thoughts but here is at least one of my premises."}, {"response": 26, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (21:16)", "body": "reincarnationist, eh?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (09:45)", "body": "I don't believe in reincarnation - more in dust to dust and all that. But I do like the lines along which you are thinking. Is there more where that came from?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (17:05)", "body": "not reincarnation... maybe just recycling of energy. Never think I'll become another human, animal or insect... just pure (unbridled) energy"}, {"response": 29, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (23:26)", "body": "I thought that was what you are now, at least when you're not sick..."}, {"response": 30, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (01:30)", "body": "Energy sounds good to me. I can handle that. As long as I know I'm not going to be DEAD dead when I die, I can live with just about anything. I just hope one gets tired of living at some point - hopefully somewhere near the point where death occurs."}, {"response": 31, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (08:10)", "body": "the law of physics states that energy cannot be destroyed, stacey, not matter. However, the law of entropy states that that energy becomes gradually less and less useful as it passes through processes. The entropy of the universe is gradually increasing. reincarnation is negated by the fact that we have an exponential population growth."}, {"response": 32, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (13:12)", "body": "what about the thousands of extinct species, and those headed there, Mike?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (16:36)", "body": "Oh God, I'm gonna be a dino in a million years' time?!!!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (07:42)", "body": "sorry, i don't get your point, wer!"}, {"response": 35, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (17:38)", "body": "if'n matter is destroyed Mike... what is created?? Energy. That is the crux of my point."}, {"response": 36, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:06)", "body": "energy with ever-increasing entropy and therefore ever-decreasing usefulness. if that energy is not bolstered by something then it will gradually die and become useless."}, {"response": 37, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:33)", "body": "That is why we have sex."}, {"response": 38, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:34)", "body": "sex when we're dead? that's the direction we're talking about at the moment - what happens when we die."}, {"response": 39, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (13:42)", "body": "No, sex while we are alive. We make babies, and our energy is given to them. And believe me, there is no decrease in energy to be found there. The theories that we have been discussing here are very interesting, but for myself . . .I can see how other people can think so, but personally I don't think anything dead can be a source of energy. To me energy and life go very much hand in hand. (That's one of the reasons why dead people don't tend to have sex. Ha-ha!) I think that when one dies it is the soul that lives on; now, the soul must also be a form of energy, but I think it is energy in a whole different sphere and dimension from what we know. Hence the fear that ghosts instill in us. Ghost don't infuse life into living creatures, they do not contribute in any way to the cycle of life - because they exist on a different level from us. Yet they exist, and therefore I cannot but believe that there must be something hereafter."}, {"response": 40, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (02:08)", "body": "my point, Mike, was that in some reincarnation belief systems, one does not necessarily come back as human, so your exponential population growth means nothing because of the extremely large populations of other living organisms on the earth, and if one takes into account the number of species dying on a daily basis then there is more than enough dying to cover those being born... you do know, unless they've changed the law in the last year or so, sex with a corpse is not illegal in florida..."}, {"response": 41, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (20:49)", "body": "Or Maryland. Some guy just got a reduced sentence last week because his lawyer was able to prove he sexually assaulted his victim with a beer bottle after he murdered her."}, {"response": 42, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 23, 1998 (05:23)", "body": "I think, wer, that the vast majority of surviving species experience exponential growth rates. without mass extinctions happening every day to large-population species, the two curves (dead and alive) will not meet up. i don't have any hard data for this yet, though, so give me some time."}, {"response": 43, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, May 24, 1998 (22:21)", "body": "that's why we have happy, evening-out things like... the plague, cancer, aids... and human-designed catastrophes like... car-wrecks, wars, serial killers... oh and there's always famine if'n we should fall way behind!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (07:58)", "body": "Serial killers you say? See, they do have a function in society. I once read an article about a serial killer who used his victims' . . . ahm . . . well, balls to make wallets. Gosh! But practical I suppose. One ball for coins, the other for notes . . ."}, {"response": 45, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (07:58)", "body": "What did he do with his credit cards and the pictures of his kids?"}, {"response": 46, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (01:51)", "body": "Why would he have pictures of his kids? They're in the fridge where he can see them every day, aren't they? Credit cards go in the back pocket of his jeans."}, {"response": 47, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (04:57)", "body": "more people die in auto accidents than at the hands of serial killers. much more. some data: In the Unites States, 4,000,000 people are injured each year in motor-vehicle accidents; about 70,000 of these suffer spinal-cord or brain damage. 50,000 people lose their lives. An infant born in the United States today faces a chance of 2 in 3 of suffering an injury in a motor-vehicle accident at some time during his life, and he faces a chance of 1 in 60 of ending his life in such an accident. [Source: Physics, 2nd Edition, O'Hanian, H.C., published by W.W. Norton and Co.]"}, {"response": 48, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (06:28)", "body": "Mike, a personal question: do you ever joke around? If not, then come and join us on the couch . . . I'm dying to provoke you into laughter and silly fooling around."}, {"response": 49, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jun  6, 1998 (01:16)", "body": "fool around? yup. but not here. this is my serious zone. if you want to see me fooling, join us in \"Babes\". :-)"}, {"response": 50, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jun  6, 1998 (01:20)", "body": "(how's finals?)"}, {"response": 51, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (09:25)", "body": "(just musing about Mike not being able to 'fool around' in ATHEISM...)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (09:41)", "body": "(would seem like the perfect place, wouldn't it?)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  8, 1998 (14:03)", "body": "exactly my thoughts!"}, {"response": 54, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  9, 1998 (06:31)", "body": "The perfect place for fooling around, or arounding the fool?"}, {"response": 55, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun  9, 1998 (17:35)", "body": "that is too deep for me on the last day of school. i will consider it and respond tomorrow."}, {"response": 56, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "Was it? No idea what I meant by it either. It was just one of those thoughts that sometimes pop up about two seconds before the total blank. . . ."}, {"response": 57, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (14:07)", "body": "i think i meant 'fooling around' but 'arounding the fool' really intrigued me!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (15:35)", "body": "Well, you know . . . like wrapping him up in his own sideburns."}, {"response": 59, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jun 10, 1998 (17:17)", "body": "now THAT'S a visual!"}, {"response": 60, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 11, 1998 (01:14)", "body": "I've SEEN that! You get these men; they lose all their hair, except for that little bit by the sideburn. Then they grow this little cluster of hair very long, and wrap it around their heads, so people will think they've still got all their hair. Now, that's what I call blasphemy!!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jun 13, 1998 (19:49)", "body": "i'm taking a friend to church tomorrow. one less athiest to worry about..."}, {"response": 62, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jun 14, 1998 (01:28)", "body": "Yes - if one is under the impression that going to church makes a person a good Christian . . ."}, {"response": 63, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun 16, 1998 (13:26)", "body": "did a conversion take place Mike? BTW, your exams are now complete, are they not?!?! How'd it go?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jun 20, 1998 (20:42)", "body": "my friend is the most indecisive person you could ever meet. All I've ever been able to get out of her, on ANY subject, is \"I don't know...\" She drives me crazy :)"}, {"response": 65, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jun 21, 1998 (02:13)", "body": "Marry her!! She'll be good for you! I hope she shakes you for the rest of her life! What I'm trying to say, is that I think it is good to be indecisive and not too sure of everything. Because not being sure leaves room for thought and growth and development. Imagine what it would have been like if she had the answers to everything or most things. It would be boring, and you'd probably not bother to be friends with her, being the natural teacher that you are. Also I find that people who are completely certain of everything are generally pretty self-righteous, they feel that they don't need to learn or grow spiritually, they grow fanatic over their own (human) certainties, and that is very unpleasant. You know what I'm trying to say? Besides, I cannot imagine your not relishing the challenge she presents . . ."}, {"response": 66, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (16:20)", "body": "*laugh* indecisiveness is a gift! (and a way of life!)"}, {"response": 67, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (17:16)", "body": "but don't quote me on that 'cause I'm not really sure, I think..."}, {"response": 68, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (17:57)", "body": "See, Mike? (We all put up with Wer and love him all the more for that very thing . . .)"}, {"response": 69, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (18:23)", "body": ""}, {"response": 70, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (14:00)", "body": "is that what we love him for?!?! I thought it was his ability to handle hot things barehanded!"}, {"response": 71, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (15:44)", "body": "Not to mention stuffing them . . ."}, {"response": 72, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (17:17)", "body": "in the appropriate places while still warm?"}, {"response": 73, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (19:24)", "body": "that's the credit I was giving you!"}, {"response": 74, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (23:48)", "body": "thanks, I guess, as we don't really know, do we? *wink-wink* *nudge-nudge* (still ain't quite figured that out yet, neither...)"}, {"response": 75, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (01:35)", "body": "How to stuff, or how to do it to the appropriate things in the appropriate places?"}, {"response": 76, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (01:40)", "body": "something along the lines of, why wasn't there more stuff in general?"}, {"response": 77, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (01:42)", "body": "That's more like it!!"}, {"response": 78, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (01:53)", "body": "then I guess you like it?"}, {"response": 79, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (01:59)", "body": "Psh - what a question. Shit, yeah!"}, {"response": 80, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (10:07)", "body": "aack...now you're starting to sound like Stacey... (almost said, \"oh, my god,\" instead of aack, but then I remembered what topic we're in...)"}, {"response": 81, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (14:41)", "body": "and that is surely a marvelous thing, Riette... sound like me all you want! let's see if we can make WER crazy as a cockroach...(in the can thing)"}, {"response": 82, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (15:00)", "body": "fair enough"}, {"response": 83, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jun 27, 1998 (04:54)", "body": "ha-ha! So, which part sounded like Stacey? The blowing noise?"}, {"response": 84, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jun 27, 1998 (04:54)", "body": "Oh, and Wer, that would be, 'Oh my godless!'"}, {"response": 85, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (18:53)", "body": "how about, \"oh my non-god\" ?"}, {"response": 86, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:06)", "body": "or, more in line with Riette's French, \"wha da f***?\""}, {"response": 87, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:08)", "body": "in answer to your question in re: sounding like Stacey, Riette, \"Shit, yeah!\""}, {"response": 88, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (01:04)", "body": "Yeah? $hit!!!!"}, {"response": 89, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (01:12)", "body": "*grin*"}, {"response": 90, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (01:16)", "body": "Good morning, muffin! Or should I say, night night?"}, {"response": 91, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (01:57)", "body": "either/or/both... didja miss me?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (04:04)", "body": "Like mad!"}, {"response": 93, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (13:32)", "body": "a think you had a typo, shouldn't it have been Like the mad!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (01:49)", "body": "ha-ha Like the hare! Did you miss me is a more difficult question . . . So did ya?"}, {"response": 95, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (12:15)", "body": "sure, why not?"}, {"response": 96, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (12:31)", "body": "Too difficult a question to answer. But you know why not."}, {"response": 97, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (12:35)", "body": "because I'm empty and thoughtless?"}, {"response": 98, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (12:52)", "body": "No, because I can't imagine anyone missing the pain in his butt!"}, {"response": 99, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (12:52)", "body": "You're pi$$ed off with me, aren't you?"}, {"response": 100, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (14:41)", "body": "nope..."}, {"response": 101, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul  3, 1998 (00:50)", "body": "Thank badness!"}, {"response": 102, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug  5, 1998 (12:59)", "body": "This week I spent alot of time by myself, going walking, hunting for stained glass windows to admire, and so on. And it made me think a few rather deep thoughts (she says, smiling self-mockingly). One of these came to me as I was walking to a small town called, Kirby, and it struck me in such a way, I cannot help but try and share. As I entered the village, it occurred to me how hard we humans try to defy mother nature. We cover her up with cement and pretty houses and other more masterful pieces of a chitecture and man-made things. Yet, wherever you look, through the tiniest crack in the cement and stone, a bit of grass, perhaps even a flower will grow through. And isn't that exactly what God is?"}, {"response": 103, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Aug  8, 1998 (23:39)", "body": "a crack in something man-made that a weed is growing out of?"}, {"response": 104, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug  9, 1998 (01:28)", "body": "Actually I thought that the thing I discovered through the 'weed' is a kind of understanding, very humble in nature, but still SOME kind of understanding of the nature of God/Goddess/Wankan Tanka, or whatever you want to call it. A Being in whose existence I happen to believe. No matter how solidified our negative emotions make us, somehow we always manage to get through that tiny crack, somehow we always have the guts to make that crack and let our love come through with new life. I don't think that that is something we humans are capable of by ourselves, our nature is simply too wretched to find the will and strength, and therefore it must be God pushing us through? This must all sound really silly, but I can't help it - it is difficult to convey the meaning of such a perso al belief, and I accept that."}, {"response": 105, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug  9, 1998 (07:35)", "body": "A strong argument against the existence of the Christian god (henceforth referred to as God) is contained in the theodicy problem, which can be stated in the following manner: If God exists, he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good. The existence of suffering is incompatible with the existence of God. Suffering exists. God does not exist. To make the argument clearer, consider the following clarifications. An all-knowing being will be aware of suffering; an all-powerful being will be able to prevent suffering; and a perfectly good being will desire to prevent suffering. If suffering exists, then God - who is characterized by the three attributes stated in point 1 - does not exist. It is possible for some other god to exist, but he cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good, though he may be one or two of these. - Dr. Niclas Berggren (source http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/Theodicy.htm )"}, {"response": 106, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug  9, 1998 (08:00)", "body": "Do you believe in a God, Terry?"}, {"response": 107, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug  9, 1998 (08:00)", "body": "And what were you doing yesterday? You weren't here properly."}, {"response": 108, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sun, Aug  9, 1998 (13:45)", "body": "the major flaw in the argument above as posted by terry is that we simply assume that a loving, omniscient, omnipotent God would prevent suffering. there is no basis for that assumption. consider raising kids: there are some forms of what some might call suffering that are absolutely essential to growing up to be a respectable adult. indeed, kids who have not suffered in any way whatsoever are usually considered to be horrible rotten brats. by the same token, God in heaven may view our time here on earth (both as individuals and as a species) as a \"growing up\" phase, after which we will be able to join Him in heaven, or wherever. i hope that makes sense!"}, {"response": 109, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug  9, 1998 (23:16)", "body": "I believe in a God, yes. I just like to pose these counter arguments for the sake of discussion. Austin seems to be the epicenter of the athiest world and there is a huge controversy surrounding the mysterious dissappearnace of Madelyn Murray O'Hair, leader of the Athiest movement."}, {"response": 110, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Aug 10, 1998 (00:50)", "body": "RAY: Yes, I agree. It's just like us humans to assume that if there is a God He MUST only be good to us. That's our nature, that's how corrupt we are. And the person who posed that argument is a particularly good example! TERRY: Hope you didn't think I asked because it bothered me. And I am sorry for Madelyn Murray O'Hair. I know nothing about that or about her, and will therefore assume that she is a good person. If so, then she was probably taken by someone who did not share her views. Another typically human trait. We just can't let each other believe and live as they want without discriminating can we? I think if our natures were just a little more inclined towards respect for one another, we'd be a better speci s altogether, and those who have captured her are the truly evil ones, not she."}, {"response": 111, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Aug 10, 1998 (10:12)", "body": "Madelyn Murray was definitely a weird, strange person, for sure. she and a couple of her atheistic followers disappeared 1 or 2 years ago with about half a million dollars in gold coins. speculation is that they were killed by someone."}, {"response": 112, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Aug 10, 1998 (11:30)", "body": "... or that she's hanging out in Australia or Switzerland ..."}, {"response": 113, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Aug 10, 1998 (13:28)", "body": "Switzerland?!?! Well, it makes sense. If I had half a million dollars I'd also get my ar$e to this country as soon as I could! PLUS her description fits about every second female on these streets. So Switzerland can defenitely be called the land of the anti-Christ!!! ha-ha!"}, {"response": 114, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Aug 11, 1998 (07:13)", "body": "someone called?"}, {"response": 115, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 11, 1998 (10:23)", "body": "Oh my godless, you again! ha-ha!"}, {"response": 116, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (02:28)", "body": "and ever so may be..."}, {"response": 117, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (02:47)", "body": "and ever so must be....for that is how we know and love you"}, {"response": 118, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (02:57)", "body": "no more change, evolve, grow? I'M GONNA BE LIKE THIS FOREVER?!? oh, well... it's hard not to be Devil's advocate when he has you on retainer..."}, {"response": 119, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (03:29)", "body": "Being an atheist does not mean that one is the Devil's advocate. You'd have to be evil, and you're not. Change, evolve and grow to where you WANT to grow, not where you feel you HAVE to grow."}, {"response": 120, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (03:31)", "body": "how about monotheistic multideism?"}, {"response": 121, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (03:32)", "body": "How about NOT"}, {"response": 122, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (03:34)", "body": "Wer, are you alright? I cannot help but notice the time. Aren't you in bed, because you are worrying about work and stuff, or are you just not tired?"}, {"response": 123, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (03:35)", "body": "no yes yes almost"}, {"response": 124, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (03:36)", "body": "(and, I'm at work, actually...)"}, {"response": 125, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (03:39)", "body": "I am sorry to hear that. You feel you have too many things to do, and don't know when to get them done?"}, {"response": 126, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (03:45)", "body": "I know when to get them done, circumstances just don't always allow that, and, unfortunately, I also know the next best time to do some of them, like now for instance..."}, {"response": 127, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 12, 1998 (08:21)", "body": "Sorry I left like Wer - the postman rang . . . really!!!! Parcel from my mum."}, {"response": 128, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (17:03)", "body": "feeling better sir godless?"}, {"response": 129, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (17:06)", "body": "you talkin' to me?"}, {"response": 130, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (19:17)", "body": "ya I'm talkin' to you."}, {"response": 131, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (23:11)", "body": "oh, forsaken and alone as befits the godless... how is you?"}, {"response": 132, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (13:23)", "body": "Atheism: a non-prophet organization."}, {"response": 133, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (13:26)", "body": "ha-ha!! Sounds a damned healthy arrangement to me!"}, {"response": 134, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Sep 22, 1998 (15:44)", "body": "thanks for that return to terry, Ray. I would have said the same myself, except I was six weeks late :) every time i have a doubt about the existence of God - any version of creator you care to believe in - all I have to do is look at the wonderful complexity of anything in nature. go to a tree, pull off a leaf and look at it. spontaneous, random evolution? i think not."}, {"response": 135, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep 22, 1998 (22:04)", "body": "oh, i am a staunch believer in Neo-Darwinian evolution. Evolution is not spontaneous nor random. i just happen to think that evolution did happen, and it was God's way of making all of the living things we see! back when i wasnt so burned out and decrepit, i used to spend a fair amount of energy arguing (in print and in debates) for evolutionary theory. when arguing with fundamentalists and creationists, i would start with the book of Genesis. In that story it is recounted how the universe and all living things in it were created. i have argued that the story of creation as told in Genesis is essentially and evolutionary tale. Consider: 1)There was an active process occuring over time (6 \"days\") 2) during this process, objects then life was said to be created in the same order as that given by cosmological and evolutionary theories) 3) it is implied (particulary in the old Greek and Latin versions of Genesis) that the living things created were dependent upon the creation of other living things before them. i generally tried to argue (unsuccessfully for the most part) that you did not have to be a godless heathen to buy into the notion of evolution through natural selection (a decidedly non-random process). instead, it was more useful to think of evolutionary theory as answering the \"how\" questions of life, and leaving the \"why\" questions where they came from, God our creator. whoops! that was a atypically long post for me. you just happened to touch on one of my all time favorite topics Mike!!!!!"}, {"response": 136, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (00:53)", "body": "Yes, that's more or less what I believe too. Now, here's a thing I've been thinking about lately - you know how even relativists think at times.... I thought about how God is so beyond us, yet how we speculate, even fight(!) about where He is, and where we will go when we die. Then I suddenly thought, what if we are all right? I mean, can any religion really be WRONG if practiced with solemn devotion and sincerity, and if a life of sympathy and care for one's fellow people is the result? So, does that not mean that Christians will go to their heaven, while others will enter their Nirvana or whatever they believe in? Is it not possible that all th se places are like different 'rooms' where God will receive our souls?"}, {"response": 137, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (02:04)", "body": "the following is 85 lines long: I just thought of something. If survival is the usual reason given for the changes that occur in evolution, and if the leaves on trees are there for the tree's survival, and if survival is the reason for the evolution of the tree into having leaves, what then is the reason for survival? If feels like the same question as: what is the reason for life? But the thought that I had was: if evolution is not random or spontaneous, and if evolution has a reason, say, like, survival, would that mean that the reason is what's important? If so, then the reason for survival is what's important, I was thinking. If the reason for survival is unknown, or if the reason for life is unknown, then what was happening inwardly within me was this thought: it's not really known, in a non-random, non-spontaneous, scientific sense what the reason is for evolution or survival or life. And the other part of this thought I was having is: that therefore the reason for evolution or survival or life could even be random or spontaneous in some way that is beyond reason, as well as being random or spontaneous in some way that is beyond spiritual or religious beliefs or meanings or faiths. In other words it's unknown whether the reason for evolution/survival/life is random or spontaneous, beyond any kind of reason (scientific) or non-reason (religious beliefs or faiths or those kind of meanings). If original source reasons could be random/spontaneous, then perhaps tangible reasons (leaves on trees enable trees to survive) could (or may) be also, in their deeper or deepest sense, random and spontaneous. To me, that thought leads to an uncertainty: since it's unknown, then it might be best to be open to what the original source reason/reasons is/are. It may be a mistake to say what it is before it's known. And it might be unknowable. It might be knowable in some unknowable way that is beyond knowing. And it might be that if a person says they know, that they may be only conceptualizing or projecting or deluding. It might be that a person might say that they don't know, when they actually do, in some way that is beyond knowing, and so it fits what they say when they say that they don't know. And it also seems like a person could say that they know and it might be true (and not projecting or deluding or conceptualizing) if they know in some way that is beyond knowing. Whether a person knows, doesn't know, or says they do or don't, it still just might be that everything essentially is spontaneous and random in its original source. Everything may be as random and spontaneous as beauty and love and truth, where the original source comes into play, if it comes into play with everything. It's like: is there a reason for reason or reasons? It's like: stop making sense. .....in the deepest sense. Does that mean that what it comes down to is: just listen to what's there (here, everywhere) without doing any preconceiving.? That would be being true, doing true, living true? And would belief and faith be forms of preconceiving? So here's another thought: is knowing what's originally true a kind of knowing that's beyond knowing and beyond belief and beyond faith and beyond reasons? Can the original creative force, (whatever that is, IF it is) be perceived as tangibly as a leaf on the tree, and if it can, there would therefore be no reason for belief or faith....as in the same sense as when we see a leaf, that we don't then also say we believe in it or know it or have faith in it or are being concerned with any reasons for the leaf. Just speaking for me now, belief and faith are out. They seem based on conditioning and thought. Knowing is a possibility, if it's unknowable in its way of knowing. I'm not saying that's true or that I'm right about this---I'm just saying that's only how it appears to me. And that unknowing knowing would not be based on anything that's gone before (no beliefs, no faiths, no conditioning or thought or reason). And it may be random, spontaneous, but it would be completely unrelated to religious personages or descriptions or symbolism or conditionings. And it may just be that the most tangible objects and the most tangible or obvious reasons (for how and why and what they are, even evolutionarily) may be ultimately random and spontaneous. What is the difference between this so-called 'unknowable knowing' and faith or belief? Wouldn't the difference be that it's not based on anything, and that faith and belief heavily depend on what's gone before (for example: scripture, tradition, thought, philosophy, conditioning, habituation, pretext, culture pattern, ethos)? Well, anyway, that's what suggests itself to me, and how I wonder about it all."}, {"response": 138, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (03:20)", "body": "sounds like you're an agnostic, Jim"}, {"response": 139, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (10:20)", "body": "jim, the evolutionary process is not so much dependent on survival as it is dependent on *reproduction*. living things do not have to survive for a long time or even survive very well for evolution to work. all they have to do is to reproduce. it is the differential reproduction of one population of genes over others that accounts for changes seen in a species during evolution. i think one of the issues you were dealing with in your posting above was that of the seeming teleological nature of life and evolution: life and evolution seem to have a purpose. i happen to believe that they do, but scientifically it is not possible to demonstrate or even discuss that. in place of a teleological discussion, we can talk about *teleomatic* systems: those systems that seem to work with purpose, but in fact are simply the execution of sets of instructions going on blindly. Evolution is a teleonomic process, and the basis of that process is DNA. it is the property of dna to encode information about an organism, to alter itself, and (most importantly) to reproduce itself. it has been argued, in fact, that all of the wonderful varieties of life that we see on this planet are just a byproduct of DNA trying to survive and reproduce, exploiting every opportunity for survival possible, and competing with each other. in short, the seeming \"purpose\" of life and survival can be best understood by looking at the nature of DNA. Some authors who discuss this issue at length are Ernst Mayr, Michael Rose, and Richard Dawkins. What i wrote here is just a probably bad synthesis of their ideas."}, {"response": 140, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (13:11)", "body": "I think for the most part there probably isn't any reason for survival or life or evolution, except WILL. No creature is without the will to survive; it is a spontaneous, uncontrollable reaction to the sensation of being alive. And that is the only knowing we have of that thing, that reason that we know so little, indeed so nothing about; a kind of knowing that you can't prove, can't understand, can't even contemplate, yet it beats as real as the heart in your chest, the pulse in your veins. You don' think about it. It is simply there until you die. I don't know if it is important that we believe in something or not. I believe in a God, but I don't think in terms of past and origin so much - stupidly perhaps. For me that would be to try and explain something that is so way beyond me that I cannot even begin to think about it. I simply don't have the capacity to do so. I do think about death though, and how much I like to be alive. I think it is important that the idea life and death be bearable to us, no matter what we believe in. For they are wo such overwhelming forces to deal with. If not believing makes it easier for a person, he/she should lead their lives accordingly, and if believing in a God(ess) and a life hereafter is what gives one piece, then that is how one should live."}, {"response": 141, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (14:29)", "body": "I've learnt about that will to survive:) I, too, am an evolutionary-Creationist - didn't mean to imply that i'm not. the point that i was trying to make is that i don't believe in the completely random, spontaneous evolution position, as held by pure evolutionists."}, {"response": 142, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (16:35)", "body": "i don't think that a \"pure\" evolutionist would ever claim that evolution is a completely random and spontaneous process. Neo-Darwinism is what most of the evolution crowd buys into nowadays, and that paradigm leaves very little room for ramdomness. Creationists have characterized evolutionary theory as random and spontaneous, but that is a falsehood meant to discredit evolutionary ideas."}, {"response": 143, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (17:05)", "body": "explain neo-Darwinism to us, then. a pure evolutionist, in my conception of the term, is essentially atheistic - e.g., strong anthropic/weak anthropic principle."}, {"response": 144, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (18:01)", "body": "well, i am a pure evolutionist, at least i think i am, and not an atheist! in a nutshell, neo-darwinism is the orginal ideas of darwin combined with modern knowledge of genetics. when darwin developed his idea of evolution by means of natural selection, DNA and the nature of genes was completely unknown. During the first half of this century, Mendelian genetics was developed into a cohesive mathematical paradigm called population genetics. later on watson and crick isolated and characterized the DNA molecule. all of this knowledge together with some contributions from SJ Gould and others has formed the basis of modern evolutionary thought, which is sometimes referred to as Neo-Darwinism. i think i know what you are getting at by saying that atheism and pure evolutionism are related. i have known and worked with a lot of people who fit that mold. and i think that they believe that in fact evolutionary processes are a perfectly good and complete explanation for how and why we exist. on the other hand, i feel that a purely evolutionary explanation is sorely lacking for a reason as to why we are here. that is a great question for which evolutionary theory comes up short, but for which we have religion and philosophy."}, {"response": 145, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (18:08)", "body": "to my mind, and incorrectly in my opinion, evolutionism and creationism have always been diametrically opposed; many evolutionists I have come across debunk theism through scientific evidence, something which doesn't really make sense. if you can find usenet archives of a few months ago (www.dejanews.com maybe) then you might like to surf through alt.talk.creationism - lots of evol. vs. creation there, most of it rubbish it has to be said."}, {"response": 146, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (22:08)", "body": "a theistic perspective cannot be debunked scientifically any more than scientfic theories can be debunked by theism. you are absolutely correct. all of this has (like everything else) a historical basis. evolution is *not* a new idea. ancient greek writers (names escape me right now) knew intuitively that evolution had to have occured, and they wrote extensively about it. after the renaissance, Linneaus and Lamarck also studied evolution extensively. to that point, there was no obvious mechanism by which evolution should work. thus, religious leaders were not threatened because it was just as plausiblyu to say God did it as it was to discuss some of the weird ideas of the time. All of that changed with Darwin. his idea of natural selection as the mechanism by which evolution occurs was threatening because at last there appeared to be a stunningly simple and elegant explanation for evolution that did not involve God. that is when the feces hit the air circulation device, and where we are to this day."}, {"response": 147, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (01:51)", "body": "Let's say G is reproduction. Let's say the reason for G is F. Let's say F is survival. Let's say the reason for F is E. Let's say the reason for E is D...etc. back to A. Let's say no reason can be found for A. What does that say about B and all the other letters? Science can only cover so much ground before it runs out of reasons for reasons, as phenomena is traced back to whatever basis its based on at its first known link. Is that making any sense? One danger is the mind. What if the mind doesn't like uncertainty. And what if the mind has powerfully concealed needs to find certainty at all costs, no matter what it takes. Let's say that what it takes is the conceptualizing of certainty, whether it's true or not. In other words, it might be that truth is not factor anymore when it comes to the mind's need for certainty or theory or explanation or knowing or belief or faith. In other words, it might be that what people feel the strongest need for is to believe in words as if the words were the thing(s) that the word represents. Is it important to ask what the reason is for something? We ask own selves, don't we, why am I alive? So, is that important to do? And is it important to do with phenomena in the natural world? So if we ask what the reason is for DNA, and we come up with alteration and reproduction, mostly reproduction, then we can ask what is the reason for alteration and reproduction. Doesn't it seem like life reproduces so it will survive? If that's not the reason, it may be important to ask what is the reason for reproduction. There's a difference between not knowing the reason for something and random/spontaneous. That a reason is unknown is not the same thing as random or spontaneous. It could turn out that they're same, but that's not known yet. Nothing's really known, scientifically. I mean as long as the atom is an unknown, in the sense that it's unknown what an atom really is. So something can look like it's definitely gotta be not random or spontaneous, yet how can we be sure, if we can't be sure about anything, since knowledge is always limited? Everything that is known, as far as findings and observations about our environment, is always limited. It's useless when going into the question of what is true, right? But what is the truth about why we're alive? And can that be perceived or realized through thought? And is thought what goes into the creation of belief and faith? I'm feeling that belief and faith are conceptual and therefore void of meaning or substance. And that truth can only be perceived if all belief and faith and concepts and thoughts are set aside and don't come into play at all. Then it would come down to this question: can truth be perceived? And I was thinking that truth includes the reason for life. I'd like to mention, btw, that I can't perceive a darn thing......yet, anyway. But I don't say truth isn't perceivable. I'm saying the mind is conditioned by experience, memory, thinking, etc. This conditioning is dangerous because it affects a person by producing an unfounded consciousness, an awareness based on thought and the conceptual. The conditioning makes a person feel that their deepest feelings and thoughts and beliefs are not conditioned, when they are, over time, gradually, being programmed into the deepest reaches of the mind, rather easily. We are influenced like that, that's how our minds are shaped. Our own thoughts are combinations of other thoughts. In essence, it's a distortion....it's distorted when used to perceive truth. Perception of truth is up against that. In the deeper reaches of the mind it gets incredibly subtle, the self-deception, the distortion. It's extraordinarily difficult to be clear and objective and vigilant and attentive. It seems like it's true that I'm an agnostic, alright, and yet the word agnostic just doesn't feel good.....I guess there's some psychological connotation going on in my mind about it that runs negative, but I dunno why. All the above is extremely questionable (I'll be questioning it for quite some time to come.....I like it when y'all do too). And I like to question what all of us are saying. It's kinda worthwhile."}, {"response": 148, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (06:12)", "body": "\"truth\" is a misnomic term in that it can be applied as what I think of as a \"primary\" - not sure how to explain this, so bear with me :) Religion I think of as \"primary\" - it attempts to explain x,y and z and relies on nothing else (e.g., evidence) to support itself. However, \"truth\" is no such thing. There are not \"truists\" meeting on a Monday/Wednesday/Friday/Sunday morning/evening because truth is only implied from more fundamental things. We believe truth to reside in certain things, most often those things that \"work\" - General Relativity works, so it's true, for example. (Oh, and just in case this little nugget comes up) \"Beauty is truth and truth beauty\" - what a crock of shit. Beauty, or moreover aesthetics, being so fluid and subjective negate that statement."}, {"response": 149, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (08:19)", "body": "i would say that religion does rely on one thing to support itself: faith. self-evident evidence!"}, {"response": 150, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (10:16)", "body": "Jim, your response is overflowing with questions, answers, more questions - as is indeed every response in this topic. The fact that none of us can answer these questions - whether scientifically or morally or in whichever way - suggests that this particular truth is too big for us. We cannot grasp it. We cannot even begin to. We don't even know our own minds. We don't understand about how the earth came to be, how the materials from which everything on it is created, came to be. We don't know where it all began, but I think that first glow of life an eternity ago, must be God."}, {"response": 151, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (00:24)", "body": "Maybe explanations, answers, thoughts, beliefs, what works, knowledge and faith are necessarily untrue. Maybe truth doesn't have anything to do with any of that. If that's true, where do we begin? Maybe with simple perception. Like looking at a leaf. Seeing and listening and perception---they're all the same, eh? But how can we see, listen to, or perceive truth? By elimination? If we eliminate or negate what is untrue in what we're seeing, then perhaps we can come upon what's true. Seeing the leaf while categorizing it in our minds as coming from an oak, is not seeing the leaf. That would be seeing that is contaminated by thought or knowledge. To really see the leaf....is seeing truth. But that means the perception is clear, and when it's clear, we can understand our minds, our emotions, reality and actuality, and what thought is. The really tricky thing that doesn't get eliminated is thought. Thought is what we depend on much more than we realize. It creates the stuff in our minds that we call faith or belief or truth. But it acts like it's not the thing behind those 'things'. Do y'all feel like we're following and understanding each other? No? Yes? Are there any missing links that you're noticing?"}, {"response": 152, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (01:04)", "body": "I fear understanding has nothing to do with it. This is all so complicated. But I do understand what you are trying to say - I think. You are saying that because we cannot determine where it all started, we cannot determine the difference between truth and falsehood in what we believe. But if this is true of religion, it must also be true of science. Neither science, nor religion has all the answers. Does that not allow room for a little of both? Is it really necessary to determine whether what we elieve is entirely true or not when the universal truth of the matter is beyond all our understanding? Just as the Bible as we know it, the Koran or the Torah as the Jews know it, just as any other religious script might be untrue for the greatest part, just so might all Stephen Hawkins' theories all be false. We cannot determine. All I know is that, if there is a God, He will have needed science to create the universe. And if science is what started life, it will have needed a hand to plant the first seed. There is also the matter of spirit. We agree that we all have souls, right? So if we all have souls, where will these go when we die if there is only science?"}, {"response": 153, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (01:40)", "body": "jgross, you are starting to sound so Cartesian!! \"i think, therefor i am\""}, {"response": 154, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (07:40)", "body": "where's Tesla when you need him? or Reich?"}, {"response": 155, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (11:07)", "body": "Maybe you don't."}, {"response": 156, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Sep 28, 1998 (19:55)", "body": "I love coming back to pure chaos! (Hi everyone!!!!!) Riette, I was interested in your comment concerning WILL. I often like to have my own question and question sessions concerning the topic of 'a higher being', a 'reason' for existence and meaning in life... but today I should mention I'm just happy to be conscious of my 'life' and don't really give a flip WHY! Jim, on most days I'd echo your sentiments but when WER (or anyone else) points out the idea of agnostic reasoning in my ideas I tend to lose the thread of my less than convincing convictions... But last weekend I spent three nights up in the mountains (protected by synthetic fibers and my fuzzy hat) and every time I had to climb out of the tent to relieve my aching bladder, I could not help but to gaze at the black as pitch sky and stars too bright and numerous to estimate... I can envision how others could conceive the presence of a 'higher being'... I just have no desire to rationalize it continually in my own head... so I don't believe (today)... but I might believe (tomorrow... yesterday). Nature is my God and Nature is neither benevolent nor malevolent. Nature is and Nature does and Nature has the potential to... and so as someone thinking through Christian eyes might say... we were wrought in the likeness of my god as well. To be and to do and with infinite potential."}, {"response": 157, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Sep 28, 1998 (20:22)", "body": "EUREKA! THAT'S IT! You've cracked it Stacey. Argh...must explain...ppl not telepathic here :-) Sorry this is me-o-centric again, but it's important enough - i am trying to keep quiet a bit :-) Anyway, OK...you know that I said I'd become a bit more \"be\" and a bit less \"do/think\"? And that I didn't really know how? Well, Stacey's just explained it perfectly: > I just have no desire to rationalize it continually in my own head... that's exactly it. i have realised that continually rationalizing my faith, etc., is a fundamental part of the changes that have happened in me. theology, when you look at it, is essentially bunk. to try and tie \"God\" down to a series of statements, or propositions or whatever is to subvert the nature of God - if God is everything, then the attempts of mankind to actually say what/who God is are not only futile, but inherently flawed. By restricting God to, say, human language is to destroy God becaus God created language and therefore more than likely cannot be described adequately by it. To try and pin down God, to say \"Yes\" to this part of God and \"No\" to another part of God is impossible; and, may I suggest it, likely to lead to the sort of schiz that I ended up with. That's what has happened. That's what the paradigm shift was: God was no longer a person or a set of rules; God just is. I'm well happy now, even if it is 2 a.m. :)"}, {"response": 158, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Sep 28, 1998 (20:24)", "body": "> That's what the paradigm shift was: God was no longer a person or a set of rules; God just is. correction: That's what the paradigm shift is : God is no longer a person or a set of rules; God just is"}, {"response": 159, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (01:00)", "body": "Yes, that is how I prefer to believe too. Fixed religion too easily attaches human qualities to God - whatever human qualities are convenient for the leaders of the particular religion. And that when He is all around us for EVERYONE to see and feel, and in ways that don't need science or theology really."}, {"response": 160, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (07:34)", "body": "*sigh* Glad I could solve everyone's burning questions... Anyone got any burning desires I can help with?!?! *grin*"}, {"response": 161, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (08:17)", "body": "oh, why do want to be burdened so?"}, {"response": 162, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (09:32)", "body": "YOU've been quiet. I miss your funny replies."}, {"response": 163, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (15:54)", "body": "Rationalizing happens after we say we stopped doing it. It's rationalizing to say \"I think, therefore I am.\" Am-ing doesn't depend on thinking, does it? (as in: \"I think, therefore I am\"). Thought is rationalizing. \"God created language,\" is rationalizing. To say that there are souls is rationalizing. To say that nature is not malevolent and is not benevolent, is rationalizing. To say that we know that there is a god is rationalizing. To say that the will to live is the meaning of life, is rationalizing. Convincing convictions are rationalizations. Categorizing someone as a believer or atheist or agnostic is rationalizing. Calling myself an atheist is rationalizing. Those are all a buncha assumptions I'm making---they're rationalizings. They could be untrue. The need to be happy and certain is so strong, we'll jump at the first chance to rationalize that we are those things (happy and certain), according to where we're coming from, according to our explanations. Saying that nature is god and that it doesn't have anything to do with malevolence or benevolence, is rationalizing. Rationalizing is part of nature. Rationalizing is only thought thinking, and then thought tries to say that it isn't thinking right now and doesn't give a flip, or says that this is all unanswerable, saying that it (thought, or giving a flip) isn't entering into the equation at all, when in fact it's right in there going on being concerned, but in a way that doesn't look like it is---in other words, it's contradicting itself. That's what thought does, it contradicts itself. It has to, because it's very limited and it assumes that it is not, and then goes on participating while acting as if it isn't, and while acting as if it knows that it is very limited---but the truth is: thought doesn't really understand, to itself, just how limited it is. Here's what I'm getting at: Chaos is too much to take. We can't handle it, the uncertainty. So we go to our answers and explanations: 1) nature is god, looking at it as beyond good and evil 2) the will to live is what it comes down to 3) there are souls 4) it has to be that god is behind all this creation 5) there are no accidents 6) etc. Thought provides the remedy for our chaos/uncertainty. But thought is pretty tricky because it's way more subtle and active and deceptive and pervasive than we realize. We seem to be fairly clueless as to the living, moving attributes of thought. But that is designed into thought (that's how thought survives, evolves, alters, reproduces---thought feels great, effective, and fulfilled when it can act as if it's not doing what we think it's not doing, which is this: participating with further rationalizing when it [or we] thinks it isn't). Chaos and uncertainty and agitation and impatience and impasses also cause people to give up. People sense how convoluted and impossible the issue becomes. Short attention spans realize it's time to call it quits. This issue is one of those ones that calls for a deep and long attention span. There are defensive and self-protective reasons for why people give up. It hasn't happened yet with us with this issue, but the intimations are there. You can feel it smoldering. And it's okay to take something specific (some line that someone has written, and say why it felt unconvincing). It's actually very good to be direct, and share meanings and go into it a bit.....very specifically (not too specifically). We're all saying alot---a number of really different viewpoints are coming into play. And we're being pretty constructive about it (no one's attacking anyone or even showing any undertones of that, while at the same time trying to crack the code or contribute to the conversation---the inquiry part of it is still alive, and of course it doesn't need to have anything to do with cracking anything---it can, but it can involve just questioning, or saying what we feel is germane, which may move us productively forward). And would you say that 'Response 163' doesn't apply to you? Would you say that it's Jim doing what Jim needs to do (being defensive and rationalizing, while maybe to himself trying to look like he's not doing that or maybe he knows he's doing that and he just wants to also share what he's thinking and feeling, while not ever being able to admit to himself that there is this overriding personal need to be right and win an argument), and that's fine or not fine, and it's just not where you're at, so you'd rather leave it at that, and not respond, because it's just becoming, at this point anyway, too dense or abstract or circulatory (running in circles) or too much a bunch of verbiage or something? I know I'm rationalizing---all of the above applies to me. Thought is the thing that looks to me like the thing to be gone into. It controls everything. First understand thought, then it may be possible to go beyond it. But not until this \"I have an answer for everything even when I say it's not an answer\" thought (rationalizing) an"}, {"response": 164, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (22:46)", "body": "Maybe that's true, what I said about serotonin, but I was actually thinking of endorphins when I wrote \"serotonin\"."}, {"response": 165, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (23:59)", "body": "actually it kind of is true, though there is really no one-to-one relationship between a neurotransmitter and some feeling or emotion."}, {"response": 166, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (00:00)", "body": "yep, serotonin is over-rated...endorphins, however, rule!!! three cheers for Chaos and it's main mistress Eris! Hail Eris! All hail Discordia! Ewige Blumenkraft!"}, {"response": 167, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (00:09)", "body": "aw, Ray, you slipped it in before me..."}, {"response": 168, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (02:52)", "body": "still refusing to rationalize even if I'm forced to change the connotative meaning of the word to avoid it... ... my reaction is a headache... well actually I had that before (explainng why I'm up at 1:30am...) I'd go for 'freaky' dreams... just as long as I got to sleep during them!"}, {"response": 169, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (07:07)", "body": "Freaky dreams are wonderful, don't you think? Perhaps we should open a topic to discuss our dreams in, and try and figure out what they mean. But back to Athe\ufffdsm. I must say, I don't really think of what we are discussing here as an argument of any kind. I think of it as speculation, nothing more - none of us have the answer, therefore it is all the more interesting to hear what people have to say. Furthermore I'm not quite sure that what we are discussing is Athe\ufffdsm - but that doesn't really matter, the thoughts I have seen expressed here are far too intriguing and challenging to stick to just that one word. I'd like to go back to rational zing. Everything we feel, everything we don't feel, everything we think either consciously or subconsciously is rationalizing. That is an essentially human quality without which I don't think we would be able to BE human - or am I just rationalizing again? It is hard to tell with any thought that enters one's head, I suppose. We don't just live - we are aware to being alive. We don't just die - we are aware of dying when we do. Just because this rationalizing can sometimes be 'wrong' (in whose eyes? , or untruthful (none of us can judge) doesn't mean we should or indeed COULD stop rationalizing. How can one judge whether one's 'truth' and 'perception', that 'flash of lightning' is real, is true, is truthful? How can one judge whether it isn't just rationalizing? And I have a question: What about innovation? Does it come into play where rationalization is concerned? How much does innovation have to do with our perception? Does innovation change our perception, or does our perception of things make us innovative? Does what we believe, what we perceive, and what we rationalize not also depend on the times we live in? Surely Time is the greatest innovator of all. And we, unable to deal with chaos and uncertainty, constantly seek to apply new remedies, while exp cting new evils all the time. Which puts a new thought, and a new question unto my limited ability to understand. If time alters things for the worse, and speculation and wisdom cannot alter them foor the better, then what shall be the end? Should we in our beliefs not try and follow the example of Time itself? Time which innovates greatly, but quietly, by degrees that can scarecely be perceived? For otherwise, whatever thoughts are new, are unlooked for, and unwelcome."}, {"response": 170, "author": "Godfree", "date": "Sun, Feb  6, 2000 (09:15)", "body": "Good morning! It's Sunday, 8:45, and I'm posting this from the community-access computers. We're just about to go out on the air. Yes, we do a TV show on Cable Access, called The Atheist Experience. Thanks to the Spring, it will be seen internationally. What's the purpose of the show? Well, it's to give people exposure to what \"real\" atheists are like. We're not all Madelyn Murray O'Hare; most of us aren't disgruntled iconoclasts. What we are, is the newest minority in America, a nation strongly dominated by religious people with a very serious bias against the non-religious. We're not here to \"convert\" folks to atheism. There are already many atheists. The Atheist Community of Austin does this show to promote positive atheism, to show that our lives are quite rich in meaning and conscientious behavior. Our philosophical outlook turns our inquiry and our aspirations to such things as life extension. Freed from a superstition that it's somehow \"evil\" or \"arrogant\" to want healthier longer existences, atheists have much to offer the human race. We'd really like to hear from ALL people-- this is a live call-in show, every Sunday morning at 9 a.m. CST. So, whether you're part of a flock or you're a dyed-in-the-wool unbeliever, I hope you'll tune in to Spring.net's REAL AUDIO feed, and give us a live call-in."}, {"response": 171, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Sun, Feb  6, 2000 (09:30)", "body": "Also see topic 47 in the spirit conference."}, {"response": 172, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sun, Feb  6, 2000 (10:59)", "body": "Two gentle questions: How does 'aspiration to life extension' relate to world over-population. Is this a largely affluent-society concept or more general? Is man inherently a spiritual being (in the broad sense)? philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 22, "subject": "FLATTERY", "response_count": 28, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (15:27)", "body": "OOHH, I can see this topic's going to be a real failure. Nobody here has anything against flattery . . ."}, {"response": 2, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (16:56)", "body": "for never was flattery lost on poet's ear; a simple race- they waste their toil for the vain tribute of a smile. (sir walter scott) (maybe we're all poets, at heart)"}, {"response": 3, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (02:00)", "body": "O'Honey, So do you like flattery? What kind of flattery? Are you a flatterer?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (22:57)", "body": "He is a poet."}, {"response": 5, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (02:20)", "body": "Stop, you're killing me, WER! Still, no-one has answered my question - are you guys afraid or something?? It sounds to me like flattery is something the old male ego simply cannot do without . . . . Come on, contradict me, I want to fight!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (11:07)", "body": "i won't contradict you. i love flattery. but i do not feel that it is a quality restricted to men."}, {"response": 7, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (15:59)", "body": "I suppose not. And I am sorry if that statement sounded sexist - I'm not. So you think the love for flattery a quality rather than a defect? What about beauty; flattery has often alot to do with physical beauty. What is beauty to you? Or should I open another topic to discuss it in? What kind of things do you like to be flattered about? Your hair, the way you move or speak or think? WHEN do you flatter?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (20:22)", "body": "i like to be told i am big, not fat. my flattery nowadays is retricted to very good friends or attractive women."}, {"response": 9, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (22:12)", "body": "here goes, Riette... flattery pisses me the hell off if it is insincere and spoken out of habit"}, {"response": 10, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (04:16)", "body": "Ray, so you flatter attractive women do you? Are you sure it is flattery and not complimenting? I mean flattery is something one uses to 'get' you somewhere with another person - if so, does it get you anywhere? KitchenMAN, okay, okay, okay! I get the picture, and I agree more than one hundred percent. Gosh, what a vehement creature you are! (Does that remark suit you better?) I too hate flattery, because it makes me feel that I owe the flatterer something - whereas in fact he owes ME something: an apology."}, {"response": 11, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (13:32)", "body": "no, no, it is definitely flattery.... guess i am (not so) unconsciously trying to \"get somewhere,\" or \"get some.\" and it doesn't get me as far as it used to."}, {"response": 12, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (09:38)", "body": "Ha-ha!! Well, I can appreciate your honesty anyway! If a man were to flatter me in such a way it would not insult me in the least bit. But flatterers like you are few and far between - I've certainly met none."}, {"response": 13, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (15:30)", "body": "oh, and riette, your ascii is looking quite lovely today. ;)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (16:00)", "body": "Why thank you, Ray - sure I'll sleep with you."}, {"response": 15, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (17:05)", "body": "great 'geek' joke Ray!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (08:13)", "body": "if flattery is a \"means to an end\", then i hate it. if it's just to be nice to someone, and to make them feel good about themselves, then it's brill. maybe that is \"complementing\", Riette?"}, {"response": 17, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (16:52)", "body": "Exactly. But I don't particularly need the kind of compliments that are meant to make me feel good about myself; I like it when someone compliments me, because he means it one hundred percent - not just to be nice. But that's probably how you meant it. So, yes. I like compliments (though I don't have a great deal to compliment), and I like complimenting people if the way they are/something they do/whatever moves me. If I want something, I ask for it - whether it is a favour or sex or whatever. The ubtle way is perhaps more graceful, but I have no grace, and that is just the way it is - I am simply too plain in appearance to rely on shallow flattery, so I don't even try it on. It would never be believeable, and the only thing it would help me achieve, would be to make a fool of myself."}, {"response": 18, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (21:02)", "body": "and the one who believed your flattery"}, {"response": 19, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (01:37)", "body": "Precisely. Because anyone can see through it. And flattery puts one in an akward position. I know exactly when I'm being flattered, and then I think, how in the world am I supposed to react to this? I mean, while I'm sure as hell not going to thank the person, I don't particularly enjoy being rude either. Then I make a grimace, and the person (dickhead) will say, 'Oh, no, really, you shouldn't be so modest - I mean it!' And that gets my arse. So what does one say?"}, {"response": 20, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (01:47)", "body": "say, \"If you really meant that, you'd be saying it with cash instead. Since I don't see any money, shut the hell up because your words are hollow. Now, go away and leave me alone.\" well, that's what I tell 'em at work, anyway..."}, {"response": 21, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (02:16)", "body": "ha-ha! You do?! I'm surprised you are still alive!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (02:34)", "body": "so are most people after they work with me for very long"}, {"response": 23, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (22:23)", "body": "I suppose we are drawing a very specific line between complimenting and flattering. Do you believe that flattery is flagrantly false to begin with?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (22:42)", "body": "Isn't it insincere by definition, intended to manipulate?"}, {"response": 25, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (22:55)", "body": "flattering is praising, I thought. If an outfit is flattering to you, is it insincere about your shape/size? Is it intended to manipulate others into believing you look the way you really don't? (I obviously need a dictionary within reach at this moment!)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (00:20)", "body": "I really don't think my wardrobe is that deceitful, but I'll look it up once and for all... 1. to praise too much, untruly (I didn't know this was a word, or maybe I did and it's just late) or insincerely; 2. to try to ingratiate oneself by praise and attention; 3. to gratify the vanity of; 4. to please. (ahh, I knew my clothes weren't that calculating!)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (15:34)", "body": "and I was hoping the word wasn't that innately base! (thanks for a valid definition!)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:01)", "body": "My wardrobe is VERY insincere about my shape and size. And I hope it'll stay that way forever! philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 23, "subject": "Is religion dangerous", "response_count": 31, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (07:57)", "body": "A little introduction to my stance is here"}, {"response": 2, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (10:45)", "body": "Yes, I think religion can be very dangerous. It can be used to create a false sense of peace in society, peace based on implicit ignorance (all colours agree in the dark). Or it is sometimes built upon a direct admission of contraries in fundamental points, turning truth and falsehood into iron and clay: they may cleave to one another, but incorporate they will not. Religion is far too often used as a means to an end, to obtain power over people, for instance. This way the laws of charity and humanity is dissolved, and used to propagate wars, and force consciences."}, {"response": 3, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (17:30)", "body": "It can be used to create a false sense of peace in society Surely what we should all be aiming for is peace in society? If not, then you adhere to principles of war, of which you accuse religion of creating. all colours agree in the dark That statement is not enough on its own. Please enlighten. I am interested to hear what you have to say. Religion is far too often used as a means to an end, to obtain power over people, for instance To what end, Riette? To what end does my faith exert a negative power over me? It encourages me to live morally, which I try my best to do, but it also points out to me that I am doomed to failure. That I am never good enough to even come close to what I could be had I not rejected God. Darn. But what's this? On the horizon comes looming the get-out-clause (initials JC) by which I'm pointed toward the person I could be, but let-off when I'm crap, as long as I realise that I've been crap. What sort o a means to an end is that, Riette? I could just as easily be going out and screwing the whole town, getting off my face on every illegal substance I can get my hands on, and generally leading the hedonistic life. But why? That ain't gonna do me any good in the long run, is it? used to propagate wars oh dear...not this old chestnut again. if you look at your history, you'll see that the majority of wars are actually about greed and about territory, with \"religion\" being something tacked on the front to make them appear worthwhile."}, {"response": 4, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (04:55)", "body": "I read your response quite a while ago, and have been thinking about what you said for two hours now. It is very difficult, but I have to admit that in certain points you have a point. First I should answer all your questions - otherwise you might think I make this admission because I am unable to explain myself, and because I don't know what I wanted to say myself. I said that religion can create a false sense of peace in society. Perhaps I should add 'when it is not well contained within the true band of unity'. Before I say anything futher, I think it is important that we acknowledge the fact that we come from two different cultures. I cannot claim to know exactly how religion functions in your culture, but I grew up in a country neighbouring South Africa, and so my opinions on religion stem from that experience, as yours stem from wherever you grew up. So I should speak in broader terms . . . Gosh, this is so difficult - I don't quite know how to put myself across. What I mean is, that if the points that are fundamental and of substance in religion were discerned and distinguished LESS PARTIALLY from points not merely of faith, but of opinion, it would be embraced more generally. Does that say anything to you? ALL COLOURS AGREE IN THE DARK What I mean by it is that men tend to create oppositions which do not really exist. These they put into new terms, so fixed that whereas the meaning ought to govern the term, the term in effect governs the meaning - therefore the sense of peace that people get from their religion is false. RELIGION IS TOO OFTEN USED AS A MEANS TO AN END Yes, Mike I more than understand that your religion encourages you to lead a moral and good life. So does mine, however relativist it may be. But not all people are as intelligent and spiritually independent as you are. Why do you think everything, from advertising to movies to religion to politics is directed at the masses? Because many, many, many people do not think for themselves - perhaps because they are afraid of what answers they might discover to their queries. They need something to hold on The very fact that you question my Relativist tendencies proves this point. Because I do not believe in the same way, or perhaps in the same Being, because I do not practise my beliefs in the same way as you do, you question it. I am not a part of the mass you belong to; You don't like something that threatens your fixed, and safe world. (Not to be taken as an insult, though.) But it does not answer your question. Do you not agree that the church has GREAT power in society? In the society where I come from, its authority exceeded that of the state and government. That is what I mean by dangerous. The end that is obtain through the means, is to make people believe what the church thinks they SHOULD believe. It's just a big power thing. For example: I kind of fell out with my parents and the church, and was EXPELLED from Sunday school when I was about ten or eleven; I was taught in Sunday school that black people were created by the devil, white people by God - with his blond hair and all - and therefore it was right and good that they should be opressed and scorned. I told the teacher that he was wrong, because once the skin is removed, one would not be able to distinguish the black man from a white - his blood is as red as mine, his bones as white. I was made to stand on a stool and pronounce myself to be unchristian - which I did with pride. (Two years ago that same church was forced to publicly announce that, actually they had made a minor mistake - actually all creatures were created by God.) HA-HA! Sweet revenge. So, if my opinions on religion seems somehow radical, forgive me - I am sure it can function quite differently. USED TO PROPAGATE WARS It is not only an old, but a very hard chestnut - one that can break your teeth. Yes, let us look at history. Was it not the christians who did most of the murdering and plundering throughout time? I believe so. What about the Nazi's - the F\ufffdhrer and all his mad monkeys belonged to the same radical religious sect. There have been massacres in France throughout the centuries, oh, as many wars were because 'GOD SPOKE' , as those about territory. I am not saying the religion in itself is dangerous, but when put into the hands of common people it can be a thing quite monstrous. I my eyes to personate God, making Him the prince of darkness is greater blasphemy than when the devil said he would ascend and be like the highest. But what better way is there to obtain power in society, but to make the 'cause' of religion descend upon unthinking people? Surely this is to present the Holy Ghost in the shape of a vulture instead of a dove, and to hoist the flag of pirates and assassins in front of the church. That is, I think, all I can come up with right now. I must be boring you to death with this outrageous talk!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (18:49)", "body": "i'll answer tomorrow, Riette :) I've just spent half an hour researching bible stuff, and i really really need to go to bed, since it's 12.40 a.m. and i have a presentation to give tomorrow :)"}, {"response": 6, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (23:04)", "body": "Religion is dangerous because being religious has nothing to do with being spiritual."}, {"response": 7, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (16:02)", "body": "Short, Simple, So True, Kitchen Man. Mike, I am awaiting your response with great curiosity. Fun, isn't it?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (22:15)", "body": "Those who cannot think for themselves are often protected by groups who think for the masses. Religion is powerful. Occassionally power can be dangerous. Everyone deserves a nightlight if they are afraid of the dark."}, {"response": 9, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (04:22)", "body": "I must say the very thought of ANYONE else thinking for me scares me. I'm a real control freak as far as my own self is concerned. Just being in control of my own thoughts, ideas, opinions and wishes, serves me as a nightlight. I think if one lets oneself be controlled by something or someone else, not even a 1000 volt nightlight will take away the fears - 'cos you won't know WHAT to fear. At least if one is in control you can figure out what it is you fear, and reason with it. And if one has clarity, you can face your fears."}, {"response": 10, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (13:13)", "body": "Hey, Mike Griggs! Where are you?! Still awaiting your reply . . . or are you yet to find the answers?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:34)", "body": "And again Riette, we must take the diversity of others into account. Some don't need/want/care or know how (or what) they can be in control. Some cannot or choose not to incubate their own thoughts. I honestly agree with your sentiments but that doesn't mean others are capable or desire to take these matters into their own hands."}, {"response": 12, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (09:34)", "body": "Yes, you are right. I sometimes forget the fact, but I can respect it. People should be free to choose whether to follow or to lead. It is those who lead who generate most of the trouble I find."}, {"response": 13, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (08:00)", "body": "So sorry about my absence. I got very sick on Tuesday and life has been a bit of a nightmare since then. I'm recovered now, though, which is good. therefore the sense of peace that people get from their religion is false I'd have to disagree with that, I'm afraid. defining \"sense of peace\" and falsehood is a difficult manner, prone to error and subjectivism. Therefore, one can only say that a sense of peace is a sense of peace - not that one is necessarily better, or more true. For example: I kind of fell out with my parents and the church, and was EXPELLED from Sunday school when I was about ten or eleven; I was taught in Sunday school that black people were created by the devil, white people by God - with his blond hair and all - and therefore it was right and good that they should be opressed and scorned. I told the teacher that he was wrong, because once the skin is removed, one would not be able to distinguish the black man from a white - his blood is as red as mine, his bones as white. I was made to stand on a stool and pronounce myself to be unchristian - which I did with pride. (Two years ago that same church was forced to publicly announce that, actually they had made a minor mistake - actually all creatures were created by God.) HA-HA! Sweet revenge. I can understand a little of where you are coming from now that you've told us that. That's cool. One thing you seem to have neglected to notice is that in fact you acted more as a Christian than they did. It follows therefore that Christianity is not following the masses, it's following the Bible, which is completely different. That's one reason why I don't go to one particular church - because I know that people are fallible and subjective, and that one person's interpretation of something will always differ from that of another. In that way, Christianity is a search for truth, underpinned by the fact that whether it is found or not, one still doesn't have to worry - one is still \"rescued\" from being cr p. USED TO PROPAGATE WARS The fact remains that men will always want to fight each other, Riette, and will find whatever excuse they want. If you read in Genesis about Kane and Abel, it's so obvious that people today are direct descendants of them - whether you belief in the physical descendency or not is immaterial, since the conceptuality remains the same. I must say the very thought of ANYONE else thinking for me scares me. I'm a real control freak as far as my own self is concerned. Just being in control of my own thoughts, ideas, opinions and wishes, serves me as a nightlight. That assumes, Riette, that you have all the answers to life. That there is nothing that will phase you and make you think \"argh! I can't explain that!\". That's pretty arrogant, I would say. I'm only 20 years old, but I've already seen enough of life to know that there are some much bigger reasons to so many things. Death is a horrible thing, yet if one strips all meaning from it, it becomes the most vile thing imaginable. 20, 30, 75 years of learning, interaction, teaching, wisdom, life and energy w ped away. With nothing else. That's it. Gone."}, {"response": 14, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (17:09)", "body": "Hi, Mike. I've missed you! And I'm ashamed. I did not mean to sound arrogant. And I'm sorry you were so ill. Do you feel better now? I hope so. I am right now not in a fit state to respond to everything you have said, but I am touched my them. But I probably owe you a better explanation about the night light bit. I don't have the answers, and never will. I am four years older than you, and probably with fewer answers and just as many fears. It is not knowing the answers I struggle with (I accept it, because I am but a speck in the universe), but as long as I know the questions, and am able to admit to myself that certain things frighten me, I can live with it better. That is how I meant it, the kind of control I so need. I agree that death is a horrible thing, and believe me, I revere the thought. I would ne er make light of it. Forgiven?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (00:43)", "body": "\"Evangelism is not taught, it's caught. It's a disease you have to be infected with. Soul-winning has to be total surrender! This is a supernatural God and this is a supernatural ministry.\" --Tom Crisp"}, {"response": 16, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (01:21)", "body": "SO you are also starting to rely on other people's thoughts? REFRAIN, will you?! I'm an ordinary person, I don't want to know what some other, less unremarkable person said, who had nothing better to do than to formulate clever little sayings so that other people could quote him on a chat room!!! Or hey, why don't we simply ALL start quoting them? Let Tom Crisp chat with C.S. Lewis, let Shakesspeare condradict Goethe, let Wilde flirt with Shaw. I see no reason why I should hang around here any longer with people who can't speak their own minds, so I'm going now. Might return when I'm less tired, less irritated, and more in the mood for pleasant discourse with dead people, dammit."}, {"response": 17, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (01:31)", "body": "reference to similiar thoughts that may or may not be spoken more eloquently than we could ourselves, allows us to put our thoughts into different words, thus presenting them in a manner that may or may not allow the other people present to better understand our thoughts (it's okay, Riette, I'll be quiet now)"}, {"response": 18, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (07:41)", "body": "wooooo......chill, Riette. Nothing here to get too worried about. Don't you think it's fun to lock horns with each other a bit? I'm sorry if my previous post sounded confrontational - I didn't mean it to be, I promise. Hope you come back soon - be missin' ya."}, {"response": 19, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (13:24)", "body": "I have no problems locking horns, Mike, and you of all people should know that. But it is frustrating for me when people keep throwing somebody else's words into my face. If I'm talking to a person, I don't want to hear all the time what this and that other person said a century or more or less ago, because it does not interest me. It interests me to hear what HE has to say, here and now, and if he can't speak his own mind he should not be talking at all. Hell, I don't care how people's thoughts come out, and I can appreciate an honest, sincere reply, however crooked it comes out, so much better than some grand words of wisdom meant to impress (and get published). No, I'm not doing those words down, or being arrogant, but if I wanted to know what Kiergegaard or Tom Crisp or Bully Buckface once said and felt, I'll go read it all by myself, thank you - don't need anyone to hold my hand in doing so. I apologize for sounding like a commanding bitch, but I must say what is on my mind. I'm sorry."}, {"response": 20, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (13:34)", "body": "Also it's just the wrong time of the month for me, that's all."}, {"response": 21, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (22:30)", "body": "Don't do that, Riette! It invalidates your opinion and makes you sound unstable (so what if you are?); it's that kind of comment that gives us the reputation as \"the weaker sex.\""}, {"response": 22, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (01:38)", "body": "I'm being honest, not unstable or weak. Honesty is more important to me than the ego, or whether I show weakness or not. What do I care if they see us as the weaker sex - I've been through child birth twice in consecutive years, and no man would have survived that, so I'm secure enough about that not to be afraid of coming across as weak. If I'm feeling weak, and under the weather, and rotten, then I should say so, because if I said I simply enjoyed being a pain, and going around bitching at people to give me their honest opinion, it would only be half the truth, and part of some ego trip. I don't go on those. The truth is that without the crazy hormones, I would probably not have said so at a l, for fear of making enemies - and that's the weakness. I have alot of those, and I should be honest about them if I'm going to live with myself for another few years."}, {"response": 23, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (17:47)", "body": "sorry you're feeling bitchy Riette... it happens to us all. I only want to defend the stance of those who every so often use others words to express thoughts. Sometimes, the words I use don't make sense to others, or they don't convey exactly my meaning or sometimes, another has phrased something so beautifully 'me' that I choose to borrow it briefly to share with another. I have always been fascinated by words that have lasted through the ages, the idea that what was true then, often applies now. In other words, I enjoy hearing quotes from famous, or infamous people, or laymen... I enjoy other's opinions and rarely feel like someone is copping out when they 'borrow' from the tried and possibly true. And thanks Autumn... for the bit about invalidation... I never saw it like that but I can see how others might. I do not want to be known as the weaker sex. I certainly do not wish to invalidate my opinion/feelings/desires."}, {"response": 24, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "i personally don't see the problem with quoting other people. Jesus quotes the scriptures constantly in all of the gospels, and he is arguably one of the most influential/important figures of the last two millenia. if someone is quoting someone else, then they are essentially ascribing their allegiance to whatever the quote says - thus, if they then attribute it, they do so only through politeness and a desire not to claim the words of someone else."}, {"response": 25, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:36)", "body": "Yeah, yeah, okay. I'm feeling more sane today, so shut up. I'm willing to live and let live again, so carry on quoting. Till next month anyway . . ."}, {"response": 26, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:39)", "body": "you're certainly interesting, Riette! definitely not afraid to let it all come out through your posts, which I like :)"}, {"response": 27, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (13:45)", "body": "Your response is making me smile. I take it naming names is not so much the American way then?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (20:58)", "body": "I don't think Mike knows too much about the \"American way\"...(*smile*) Riette, (BTW, my mother-in-law makes one that my husband raves about), if you are using your hormones as a disclaimer not to offend anyone, I understand. I thought you were vascillating on your opinion and blaming it on that \"on the rag\" crap. I get such a thrill out of lurking about the topics you post in!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:02)", "body": "Why?"}, {"response": 30, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:02)", "body": "Let's just say I enjoy the intercourse...."}, {"response": 31, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (01:53)", "body": "Ha-ha! You little intercourser, you! philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 24, "subject": "FATE", "response_count": 68, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (13:17)", "body": "fate implies predestination, thereby cancelling free will"}, {"response": 2, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (13:30)", "body": "I don't see how it cancels free will. I mean has nothing ever happened to you where you thought - SHIT, this is simply too much of a coincidence to be true, or MAN, this is incredible? My whole life is a series of such events - I have had the kind of luck you WOULD NOT BELIEVE! I'll give you examples which will make you think - NO WAY! But it's true. I still had to CHOOSE whether I wanted to approach these events as opportunities or simply nice/unusual occurences, which - and I hasten to add this - had nothing to do with spirit and occult!!!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (17:45)", "body": "My mother always says I lead a charmed life, but I've always believed in fate...for the good stuff and the bad."}, {"response": 4, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (00:54)", "body": "Do you believe in choice also?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:35)", "body": "maybe not something as predestined as fate... how about karma?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (19:09)", "body": "For myself, choice is an illusion...I know what \"choice\" was always in the cards..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (23:23)", "body": "it's not in our power to love or hate, for will in us is overruled by fate. when two are stripped long ere the course begins, we wish that one should lose, the other win. and one do we especially affect of ingots gold, alike in each respect. the reason no man knows- let it suffice what we \ufffd"}, {"response": 8, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (23:25)", "body": "it's not in our power to love or hate, for will in us is overruled by fate. when two are stripped long ere the course begins, we wish that one should lose, the other win. and one do we especially affect of ingots gold, alike in each respect. the reason no man knows- let it suffice what we behold is censured by our eyes. where both deliberate, the love is slight. who ever loved that loved not at first sight? (marlowe)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (23:26)", "body": "(oops...sorry... postus interruptus or something)..."}, {"response": 10, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (09:28)", "body": "Stacey: KARMA? Please do tell me you believe in choice as well as in fate, because what I have just read frightens me. . . To Autumn and Nick: I just cannot agree that it is 'all in the cards'. I have always thought of fate as a kind of stream. We drift along, and every now and again this predestined 'course' presents an off-shoot - you have to decide whether to carry straight on or choose the alternative course. Do you know what I mean? Choice within the course of destiny."}, {"response": 11, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (10:15)", "body": "ask me no more. thy fate and mine are sealed. i strove against the stream, and all in vain. let the great river take me to the main. no more, dear love, for at a touch i yield. ask me no more. (tennyson)"}, {"response": 12, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (16:28)", "body": "Oh, Nick, don't give me that!! It's frustrating! Tennyson did not have a choice, because he was not thinking with his head. What he thought with lied somewhere a little below the waist, and more or less in the middle. I want to ask you something - you know I have this notion that the chemistry between us just isn't right, so my question will probably set it off again. But bear in mind that I don't want to insult you. It's just that you always answer with poetry, and I was wondering: is it the only way you can express yourself? Or is this just your way of establishing a unique cyber identity? But you don't have to answer if you don't want to - I'm just curious and perhaps a little confused."}, {"response": 13, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (17:09)", "body": "the idea I may believe in karma frightens you Riette? Perche?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (00:06)", "body": "thinking hurts. barely do it, 't all (when i got my druthers)... 'cause what's the use of having thoughts?- when i can borrow 'em (from others)? (when i'm really busy- like the past few days- and my time is limited, respond with the first thing that pops into my head... which is usually poetry, of varying degrees of irrelevence... ummm, really all there is to that)... your insight into tennyson is valid, i think (though i would differ, probably, with the conclusion you derived from it)... without doubt, he was no milton or coleridge, intellectually... and this is among the reasons i love him so..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (01:37)", "body": "No, Stacey, Karma interests me, 'cos I have not a clue what it is . . . my English is only as old as my relationship with Mr. C., and so is my knowledge of 'exotic' things - yeah, that's probably why you sometimes think: what the HELL is this woman going on about. I have not a clue what Karma is. Tell me, please."}, {"response": 16, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (01:46)", "body": "Nick, that is truly odd! OTHER people's thoughts 'pop' into your head when you you are thinking, not your own? I believe you are possessed! Who am I speaking to now?! Elvis? I don't really read poetry, so forgive me if my interpretation of your different voices turn out to be blunders. An inevitable thing, I suspect, when one cannot even work out the meaning of *roflmao* by oneself . . ."}, {"response": 17, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (06:04)", "body": "your point is well-taken... it is my belief, however convoluted, that poetry is the ultimate expression of spirit and intellect... that is to say, it is the highest form i know, within this form i inhabit...perhaps the language of the sublime aspect we suspect (hope) adheres to us (against all logic)... i see the work created by those i read as being a continuing line of thought, treated within that aspect, and within that particular understanding... sort of like a dialogue, i suppose, possessed of intimacy and clarity unique among the disciplines i'm familiar with... and creating a connection (though i realize that sounds trite) that is profound in it's scope, because it encompasses just about every portion of human awareness, and does so within just about every perspective (and expressed in that amazing language, emanating, as i asserted, from spirit's intellect)... so (um, anyway)... simply thinking their words, or repeating them (or whatever) does not remove me (or my own point-of-view, such as it is, or thoughts, such as they are) from the processes of understanding, nor necessarily from expression of it (nor preclude either from being as uniquely my own as any other)... (and insofar as it does- or would or could or whatever- it doesn't matter... it is a privilege simply to be able to read those words, much less to think them, feel them, etc...)..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (08:18)", "body": "open a topic, nick :-) song: \"All we know, is that we don't know, How it's gonna be, please brother let it be, life on the other hand, won't let us understand. We're all part of the MasterPlan. \""}, {"response": 19, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (17:14)", "body": "Thanks for that, Mike. You have a few damned good lines of your own, you know. But I'll deal with the poetry, and give you a good laugh with my lack of insight . . ."}, {"response": 20, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (22:35)", "body": "Nick, glad to see you back! It's been a while... Riette: Choice within the course of destiny--I like that. It's very plausible."}, {"response": 21, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, May 24, 1998 (02:04)", "body": "(hi autumn)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Sun, May 24, 1998 (19:14)", "body": "if there is fate and destiny yet there is a slew of opportunities to choose from would the choice made be fated? if so, would that be free will? i can see how it would feel like free will at the time i feel like i can get the hang of where different people are coming from on this just need a little more help from ya --really, i'm trying honestly to understand --probably only a few more missing links that are not missing for you, but they are for me --what are they? --i feel like i'm asking what BTW stands for when you guys already know what it means"}, {"response": 23, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, May 24, 1998 (22:27)", "body": "by-the-way I do believe in free will but sometimes I rationalize it within a variable fate/destiny like this... remember those 'choose you own ending' books where at every major (or often minor) event, you (as the reader) were forced to make a decision? You could choose to stay or go, speak up or remain unheard, act or simply stand by... but there were only a certain number of possible outcomes... you had 'free will' but only within a predetermined range. The outcomes could still be totally different, but there were only so many outcomes per book. Well... If any of you read those books like me, you kept your finger on the decision page and turned swiftly back (to make the other choice) if the outcome didn't suit your tastes! (BTW, I'm still tossing the idea back and forth. I'm not sure I believe in fate and destiny, but when I consider the possibility, that is the way I rationalize it with free will)"}, {"response": 24, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, May 25, 1998 (00:28)", "body": "isn't the question itself something of an exercize in mind-f******? if free will is an illusion (made so by \"destiny\" or \"fate\" or whatever) it is not a thing we can know, anyway... i dunno... i waver in my attitude re: this issue, too, i suppose... can say this... if fate does exist (or destiny) it seems a sorry thing, to me... to believe that everything that seems to be is supposed to be is a frightening thought..."}, {"response": 25, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, May 25, 1998 (15:47)", "body": "(actually, Stacey, I used to read those kinda books straight thru...)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (09:14)", "body": "*laugh*"}, {"response": 27, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:05)", "body": "Gee, Nick, thanks so much for calling my topic an exercise in mind-fucking. It makes me feel all warm inside."}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:05)", "body": "not your topic Riette. the question itself. (deep breath, no harm done) and, if you consider it, most of these topics are excercises in just that. do we really feel as if we are going to stumble upon an answer? I think I just enjoy exploring the general consensus, seeing how I fit it, seeing what else is out there, coming to my own conclusions. BUT... if I let myself get too wrapped up, I come out looking like last month's JELLO mold!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (01:56)", "body": "I meant it humorously! Don't worry, Stacey, it's only been two weeks . . . I'm not going to go bonkers right now! Ha-HA! God, am I that unstable?!?!?! I apologize."}, {"response": 30, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (19:41)", "body": "there is fate; there is not-fate. life is both determined and non-determined. we have parameters of freedom -- but beyond that we hit the wall."}, {"response": 31, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (19:47)", "body": "*peeling myself off of the wall* Hi Americ! Great to see you here again!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (19:50)", "body": "AMERIC! (thought we drove you away!) ummm... so do you believe in fate? (or not?)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (20:07)", "body": "sounds more like fatesque or psuedofate to me"}, {"response": 34, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (20:07)", "body": "or just another definition of the word"}, {"response": 35, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (22:10)", "body": "Yeah, Americ, tell us about the determined part---that fate stuff. Is that wall made of fate? Does fate like to come late and take its time with crime? Does it come too soon with a tablespoon of cartoon? Does it like to hide in wait and set up the blind date? What does fate look like when it stands out in the limelight? Why does it do what it wants to? Does fate want? Do you ever find it wanting? What's it based on? Who is it? Who really is Fate?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (23:30)", "body": "would that be the wall of Lack of Knowledge or maybe the wall of Too Much Knowing?"}, {"response": 37, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (00:03)", "body": "maybe the wall of too-much-knowing (of our) lack-of-knowledge (or's it the other way around?) either way, i believe strongly in the inexorability or whatever of fate, at least on some level..."}, {"response": 38, "author": "sonja", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (10:54)", "body": "Fate is a strange thing. What exactly does it mean? 'Inevitable destiny', the dictionary says. But I wonder how much that inevitable destiny depends on the choices we make. Also, doesn't 'inevitable destiny' provide us with an all to convenient excuse for our own lapses in judgement?"}, {"response": 39, "author": "osceola", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (12:32)", "body": "Me getting deep here (snicker)-- Fate and life choices are intertwined. I see life as a road with many crossroads and forks. We decide which one we'll take, and fate is the consequences of our decisions and actions. I don't believe in fate as predestination because I wasn't raised Protestant."}, {"response": 40, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (16:20)", "body": "Help me here, George, clear me up---are you saying that since I decided to apply for a job and since I acted on that decision by submitting an application, and since I got the job, that it was therefore fate that I got the job? Does that mean that once my decision was made, and my action completed, that, in this case, I was predestined to get the job? Would you say that you would agree with the last sentence if the word \"fate\" replaced the word \"predestined\"? If so, what's the distinction? I was trying to take your meaning of fate by fleshing it out with an example, to see if the example would zero in more on how your meaning for fate really diverges from the 'predestination' meaning."}, {"response": 41, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (16:37)", "body": "some things are inevitable, other's not, i suppose... and the consequences of choices are evident too (esp. bad ones)... i see fate as being perhaps more accurately a design woven through one's life that is removed somewhat somehow from choice or motive or even (seeming) desire or (ostensible) need (sometimes)... sometimes choices still cannot entirely obscure it, depending upon how strong it is or we are or whatever... (planning on naming child 'fate', actually...when we decide to have one)"}, {"response": 42, "author": "osceola", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (17:17)", "body": "OK then, maybe there is no fate. There is no predestination except that we all need to eat, drink, sleep, and (one day) die. Nothing else is inevitable."}, {"response": 43, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (17:42)", "body": "just about everything attached to human beings is 'inevitable' taken from the larger view... from our own, who can tell? a matter of conviction or faith or whatever i suppose... it is i admit a belief rooted in mysticism... anti-intellectual fundamentally, which isn't altogether bad..."}, {"response": 44, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (19:09)", "body": "Let's say that life is an inevitable design, because it doesn't matter what anyone chooses or what their motives or needs or desires are. Life will be there for however long it lasts, no matter what. How do we know that life, that design called life, how do we know that it's inevitable. Let's say we know that it exists, that life exists. Do we say that life is inevitable because it exists? Do we say it was inevitable because it means something, because it has meaning? Life has meaning, it's a design, therefore it was/is fate that there is life? What if there are lotsa other things going on in the universe that are quite different from life, but are just as fundamental to existence---could it be that life wasn't fated to happen, it was just one of an infinite number of possibilities that came to be? In other words, how do we tell the difference between inevitability or fate, and just whatever we might consider non-inevitability and non-fate? How do we know, how do we tell, that there is any of this stuff? Is it intuition? Some sentient capacity? Does fate have to hinge on this ability to be able to tell whether something is or is not fated, or was or was not fated? So if we're talking about fate, we're also necessarily talking about this ability? Let's say fate does not depend on this ability to tell that something is fate, how can we say that? What's enabling anybody to say that? Intuition again? Or just some capacity that we can't explain or comprehend? If so, how do we know that this capacity is not some possibility among an infinite number of possibilities where it's just something that seems to be this capacity but is really something else, very mysterious, but not this capacity to tell that there is fate or that something was fated or is fated to happen? In other words, with fate, it's all about belief? What is belief all about (if that's what fate really comes down to)? Couldn't we say that any design, that we notice, is inevitable? How do we pick the inevitable ones from the non-inevitable ones? By noticing that choice and need and desire and motive are not involved, right? But not according to George. What if the choice was inevitable. How would we know if a choice we made was inevitable or not? Which is another way of saying.....how would we know if the choice or design is inevitable or not? Which is another way of saying that fate depends on how we know what we say we know---and isn't that another way of saying that it depends on belief? So, again, what does belief depend on? So it would be this, that fate is a belief that depends on _________ I mean what do we mean when we say \"I believe this\" or \"I believe that\"? Are we saying that we don't know what we're saying, and that it's as good as speculation? So if we're not saying that, we're saying that belief is some inexplicable impression that we're getting, and it has some sort of mysterious realness about it somehow. And what always goes through my mind in those moments when I hear my or someone else's belief, is that there may be other possibilities, other designs, that if they were apprehended, they would make the belief inconclusive (it would take the inevitability out of it). But if someone says, \"well, no, they may both be inevitable designs---this belief and that other possibility---they may both be fate\", then it just comes back to belief and the question, \"what gives belief to belief?\" Why do we believe our belief is so believable? Somewhere along the line it feels like there's a real heavy emotional investment going on around the outcome---a real strong need. The belief holder feels that's not so. The belief holder feels it's unrelated to herself or himself, and that it is beyond what we can know. I just wonder why it isn't also beyond what we can believe. What is it that is believing? Could it be fate, by any chance? Fate (not chance) is believing itself through us, maybe?, who knows..... It's so self-referential and self-sealing, insulated, it's completely fool-proof, the perfect closed circuit, the thing that conveniently stores some kind of certainty, some answer, and keeps providing security.....and keeps on providing. But all these thoughts I just had here, they're really very little different from a belief, if you ask me.....I know belief is supposed to have a little more or alot more going for it than just some thoughts about belief or fate, but maybe they're all three (1, thoughts about belief and fate---2, belief---3, fate) up to the exact same tricks, same mind candy. Good old language making boundaries where none exist, perhaps?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (19:13)", "body": "Didn't see Responses 42 and 43 before doing 44."}, {"response": 46, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (18:18)", "body": "dammit jim! I had to read this conference to find out you were gainfully employed (or at least given the opportunity!) congratulations on being chosen to slave 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. (not particularly MY personal view but a view held by some)"}, {"response": 47, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (01:23)", "body": "That's FATE for you!"}, {"response": 48, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (04:42)", "body": "FATE is like luck. To some degree, you make your own."}, {"response": 49, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (13:09)", "body": "It's funny how that \"dammit\" happens when it does. I got one from Autumn when she found out I \"knew\" French. I get one from you, Stacey, when you found out I \"have\" a job. When I said the thing about the job, above, in this conference, I didn't even have it---I just was trying to think of a real-life example to talk better about what we were talking about then. Now I have a job, though. But it does feel good to hear (read) someone say dammit like that. Because maybe I matter or something. Or maybe something about me or something I have matters. But I don't really wanna matter. Feels vain. Feels conditional. I don't think I matter much (except in some way that doesn't have anything to do with mattering). It doesn't matter anyway. This kind of thinking is so stupid. But it's fun and funny when Holly Hunter thinks like that out loud in \"Living Out Loud\""}, {"response": 50, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (17:29)", "body": "wow Jim, that gives me a whole new perspective on the word dammit! Although I do think I kinda know (maybe not!) what you're talking about. It's like when I make someone mad REALLY MAD, it's kinda nice in a way because obviously they give a damn about what I've done, said, thought or think. Or perhaps it's more like negative attention is better than no attention at all. nah. I think it's that other stuff."}, {"response": 51, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (20:21)", "body": "Man! Food for thought. like someone hitting you over the head with a 4x4 to get your attention. Makes you wonder what else you've been oblivious to."}, {"response": 52, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (22:26)", "body": "here's a strange thing: when I feel touched by someone I sometimes say that the way it happened doesn't matter and that it even happened, even that doesn't matter and then I ask myself what I mean by that like how could I say such a thing and here's how: when I let go of a good thing and it really becomes real gone there's this beautiful freedom that feels sorta pure or something it reaps me wide open and the next moment I'm in touch with that person it's new it's fresh it's like how the desert feels when it feels and it feels for the flame in a person's heart"}, {"response": 53, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (00:01)", "body": "At times like this, I wish I could print off the contents of the screen. Unfortunately all the printers are locked up."}, {"response": 54, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (01:42)", "body": "Jim is good at doing that. And then he imagines that he or something about him doesn't MATTER to us? Of COURSE it does, Jim!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (08:28)", "body": "i have to print jim's comments off then read them later. they are too rich for my little peabrain to absorb in one sitting in front of the computer."}, {"response": 56, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (12:42)", "body": "I wish I could print them off. I'd like to save them. Jim is a real wordsmith. You don't find many around. I am a fan of Edgar Allen Poe. I think that jim has easily as much talent. And, he's not as morbid."}, {"response": 57, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (15:31)", "body": "he's damn creative, that's for sure. personally, i think he is actually either: 1) a disembodied human brain living in a jar and connected to a computer, or 2) a superior artificial intelligence living \"out there\" on the net somewhere! ;)"}, {"response": 58, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (01:15)", "body": "ha-ha! What if you're right, Ray?? Oh my God, how creepy! But it's true: Jim has a way with words that is just out of this world. We should persuade him to write a book, seriously."}, {"response": 59, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (03:26)", "body": "I agree. It'd be a hell of a lot better than most of what is out there now."}, {"response": 60, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (19:20)", "body": "Topic 24 of 33 [philosophy]: FATE Response 57 of 59: Ray Lopez (ratthing) * Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (15:31) * 12 lines he's damn creative, that's for sure. personally, i think he is actually either: 1) a disembodied human brain living in a jar and connected to a computer, or 2) a superior artificial intelligence living \"out there\" on the net somewhere! ************ Wish I could tell you all for sure, but he wasn't answerin the phone when I was whirlwinding around Austin Jim, I gotta admit, that does give some creedance to the brain/jar theory!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (19:43)", "body": "ooh, my brain just got jarred. that was quite a jolt. if anyone wants to visit me, my new residence is at the St. Louis zoo. the orangutan now has a pet. pet-in-a-jar, now that's more accurate. it's me. Stace, I work from 4:30 p.m. to 12:30 a.m. and, but, your voice did visit me. it was really something. the way your voice sounds was such a surprise, but then again it was a surprise visit, so...... but man, I was just carrying the sound of your voice around with me in my head for such a while. when the orangutan blew bubbles in the jar, it made your voice come back on and leave a message. it was like.....surprise again."}, {"response": 62, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (13:35)", "body": "the new job sounds perfect for your biological clock! \"Bubble, bubble. Toil and trouble...\""}, {"response": 63, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Fri, Jan 26, 2001 (08:32)", "body": "How's your new job, Stacey?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct 31, 2002 (15:22)", "body": "Wow! I was about 4 weeks shy of my company's mass layoff before bankruptcy when you asked that Paul... and about 10 weeks shy of becoming a Mommy. Now I'm a full-time Mommy and part-time contractor (instructional design and project management)... and happy about it!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Oct 31, 2002 (16:06)", "body": "What's a typical project like for you?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Nov  1, 2002 (15:31)", "body": "Depends on whether the intended training is lecture-based, print only or a computer-based project. I do turn key projects on a variety of topics but lately have been doing mostly computer-based stuff. I work with the company/individuals to write the training and verify accuracy, we story board it out and then I either take the programming on myself (using Authorware) or farm it out depending on the size of the project. I also arrange for voice over talent and the necessary down-sampling of the files, any video shots and the editing involved as well as CD duplication. Everything depends on the scope of the project really... I'm picking and choosing projects pretty carefully now... I want to have ample time to spend with my children and not run myself too ragged."}, {"response": 67, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov  2, 2002 (08:03)", "body": "How much technical expertise is required to use Authorware? Do you like it? What does it do, exactly?"}, {"response": 68, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Nov  3, 2002 (02:43)", "body": "Just about none! *grin* I love it. Basically, it is a drag and drop programming tool that allows to you create a program flow by stringing icons together. You can attach pictures, movies, sound files, etc. to individual icons to create a movie-like program. There are opportunities for creating variables and coding certain 'traits' into certain icons as well. Director is another tool I use however, that program is a bit more complicated, with the added reward of having more features and versatility. Both are Macromedia tools. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 25, "subject": "Definitions", "response_count": 14, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (13:06)", "body": "Please, no offense is intended by this topic. I just see it as a necessity, possibly for me most of all. In fact, I had to look these two up today. Acumen: Quickness and accuracy of judgement; keeness of insight. Redoubtable: 1) Arousing fear or awe; formidable. 2) Worthy of respect or honor."}, {"response": 2, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 23, 1998 (05:35)", "body": "ethics n. moral philosophy moral a. concerned with right and wrong conduct; virtuous (pl.) person's moral conduct esp. sexual conduct"}, {"response": 3, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May 23, 1998 (09:16)", "body": "ethics: 1)The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by the individual in his relationship with others. 2)The rules or standards governing the conduct of the members of a profession. morals: Rules or habits of conduct, especially sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong."}, {"response": 4, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, May 24, 1998 (22:29)", "body": "Ah ha! the 'standards' part is where we get all mucked up! Who sets 'em and why? Morals (in that definition) certainly vary between cultures but do you believe in a universal code of ethics (to govern tose morals)?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, May 25, 1998 (00:37)", "body": "(at the risk of being beheaded) i think hemingway may've had it right (for once) when he said something about what's right being what one \"feels good after\", wrong what one \"feels bad after\"... (morality being the most personal of issues, i think)..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, May 25, 1998 (15:50)", "body": "but what if you have no conscience... does that make you immoral, ammoral, or simply lacking in morals...hmmm..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (09:15)", "body": "my students often say things like, but ms. vura, it's more fun to be bad. outta the mouths of babes!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (14:15)", "body": "candor: 1) Frankness of expression; straightforwardness. 2) Freedom from prejudice; impartiality. honesty: 1) The quality or condition of being honest; integrity. 2) Truthfulness; sincerity: in all honesty. 3) Chastity 4) A plant, Lunaria annua , native to Eurasia, cultivated for its fragrant purplish flowers and round, flat, papery, silver-white seed pods. truthfulness: 1) The quality or condition of consistently telling the truth; honesty. 2) The state of corresponding to reality; truth."}, {"response": 9, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (14:15)", "body": "the flowers sound harmless... I don't know about the rest."}, {"response": 10, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (08:24)", "body": "Wish there was such a thing as a reality pill that one could take to keep one focused."}, {"response": 11, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (12:40)", "body": "anything in particular out of focus?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (12:47)", "body": "Oh, nothing more than the usual self-resentment etc. etc. etc. When I hate myself, I can't be creative, and I can't concentrating on the things that are more important than my stupid ugly self. A big bore, nothing else."}, {"response": 13, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (13:22)", "body": "riette, you're a babe and we love you. now stop that right now!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (13:28)", "body": "trying hard philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 26, "subject": "Ethics versus Morals", "response_count": 31, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (15:35)", "body": "good question."}, {"response": 2, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 23, 1998 (05:40)", "body": "one is a noun (ethics) the other an adjective (morals). ethical is defined as being a derivative of moral, so they are in effect the same thing. can't think what you're getting at with suggesting a difference, wer, please explain - could be interesting!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May 23, 1998 (09:26)", "body": "when you add the s to moral it makes it a noun... medical ethics have little to do with morals, thus part of the abortion, euthanasia, and lethal injection controversies...taking this into account, at least in parts of America, ethics are different than morals in general usage. However, this is not always the case and upon studying the definitions, they aren't very different at all, sometimes. Although, as your and my definitions point out, morals usually applies to sexual conduct in general usage. Anyway, parts of our conversations in here of late have talked about the morals of this or that, and in reading them I wondered if those talking had actually meant ethics. So I looked up the words, and lo and behold, at times they are different, at other times synonymous, thus resulting in other times when someone is playing with semantics, they are used in the wrong context to imply something not necessarily true in order to gain an advantage in the conversation. I was just curious about everyone else's thoughts on the matter..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, May 24, 1998 (03:01)", "body": "cool. thanks for clearing that up."}, {"response": 5, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:13)", "body": "Ethics and Morals are two VERY different things. What make up the first are decided upon by a large group of people. But the second is more of a personal issue that each has to determine for himself. Or am I wandering in the dark?"}, {"response": 6, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (03:07)", "body": "well they're not very different according to the dictionary definitions, Riette. only through your personal interpretation of the words, which seems to be incorrect."}, {"response": 7, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (06:47)", "body": "So my personal interpretation is totally invalid? Well, forgive me, but I don't tend to build my interpretations and beliefs about certain things exactly upon what dictionaries say about them. I'm not such a damn coward."}, {"response": 8, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (14:07)", "body": "Damn! Sorry, didn't mean to sound aggressive, Mike. Lack of tact is my biggest, stupidest, most annoying fault. Do you see words merely as they stand written in dictionaries with such rigid, fixed meanings? was how I should have phrased it."}, {"response": 9, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, May 29, 1998 (10:29)", "body": "Oh, and I wanted to ask about the point of this topic; I mean, if there really is not difference between ethics and morals, then what on earth are we talking about? The differences between things that are really the same? It's a little ike asking: So, what's the difference between a donkey? Ah . . . its one ear also sits on its head?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (19:14)", "body": "I think there is a difference. Perhaps the denotative maenings are similar but conotative meanings is what this whole damn conference seems to be about anyway!"}, {"response": 11, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, May 31, 1998 (00:31)", "body": "Quite, dammit! What is the difference for you - I mean without looking it up in the dictionary; that's why there happens to be a topic for defenitions, after all. What are ethics, what are morals, can they be seperated?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (22:53)", "body": "I think they can be separated. For me, ethics surround a considerate way of doing things. As a member of certain groups of society, I feel it is my part to play to have certain ethical standards in work and interpersonal commnication. For instance, in work there are certain practices that I consider ethical. I spend my day teaching students rules they need to follow to manage well in a society. Ethical professional practices include honesty, never violating a position of trust and an earnest effort. Ethics in personal dealings include honesty, never violating a position of trust and (you guessed it!) and earnest effort. Morals to me, are tied much more deeply to RIGHT and WRONG. People consider the abortion issue a moral issue, some consider murder and moral issue. Seems to me morals are much more personal and often tied to religious beliefs of right and wrong in the eyes of a supreme being whereas ethics are simply a code of acceptable practices to get along with minimal conflict."}, {"response": 13, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (01:47)", "body": "Yes, that's just how I feel about it. I applaud that response!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (09:26)", "body": "Wow, a consensus! Maybe we should freeze this topic now while we're ahead!!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (09:27)", "body": "*bowing* thank you, thank you, thank you!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (13:20)", "body": "And if anyone should march in here and try to push you off the podium, Autumn and I will shout blasphemy and damnation and scare them away. you can stop bowing now . . . you'll give yourself a lumbago! try jumping instead"}, {"response": 17, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (14:00)", "body": "ouch! your right! (what's a lumbago??? something to do with the lumbars I'm sure.) p"}, {"response": 18, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (15:56)", "body": "It's a severe condition . . . caused and cured by sex."}, {"response": 19, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (16:54)", "body": "and I get that from bowing?!?!? Woo! WOO! now I need that cure!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (22:42)", "body": "isn't this where I come back into the conversation?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (23:26)", "body": "why in the immoral would you say that? *cackle* *squint* whooooops [i jez fell in Terry's pool]"}, {"response": 22, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (01:40)", "body": "Well, stop cackling and squinting, or you'll drown. (one has to be practical about these things)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (09:21)", "body": "careful Leplep... for a supremem being's sake (if it exists) don't *chortle* in the pool!!!! and WER, you know you're welcome anytime!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (13:10)", "body": "But don't go for positions 49 or 88 - they make lumbago worse."}, {"response": 25, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (13:10)", "body": "And are the two main causes . . ."}, {"response": 26, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (13:12)", "body": "yeah, wer, could you come and get this darn supreme being off my back *gurgle gurgle* *glug* a snorkle anyone?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (13:24)", "body": "that's easy, Jim, just sign this piece of paper and everything will be just fine..."}, {"response": 28, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (13:40)", "body": "feels like a piece of lead slate do i gotta sign this thing with my teeth? okay okay there you go how much did that cost me? my life? please, a snorkle anyone? and a pretty long one now 's awful wet in here great filtering system, though Terry, you shouldn't have... if'n i don't watch out, this pool'll real soon be all cleaned of its Leplep"}, {"response": 29, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (16:22)", "body": "Pity there isn't such a thing as selective filtering . . ."}, {"response": 30, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (16:26)", "body": "of?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun  4, 1998 (02:04)", "body": "Lep and Plep one for the Spring and one for me philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 27, "subject": "Quotations", "response_count": 9, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (13:26)", "body": "When I was a little boy, I had but little wit, 'Tis a long time ago, and I have no more yet; Nor ever ever shall, until that I die, For the longer I live the more fool am I. Anonymous"}, {"response": 2, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 23, 1998 (05:43)", "body": "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11 verse 1"}, {"response": 3, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, May 24, 1998 (22:31)", "body": "I have ABSOLUTELY no arguement with that definition! *smile* (been busy Mike? miss your long banters!)"}, {"response": 4, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, May 25, 1998 (21:12)", "body": "Sister Disco is keeping him busy!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (09:15)", "body": "Woo WOO!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:16)", "body": "As long as it isn't Sister Bingo, it's cool by me."}, {"response": 7, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (00:25)", "body": "The Ten Commandments (In Ebonics) 1. I be God. Don' be dissing me. 2. Don' be makin hood ornaments outa me or nothin in my crib. 3. Don' be callin me for no reason - homey don' play that. 4. Y'all betta be in church on Sundee. 5. Don' dis ya mama ... an if ya know who ya daddy is, don' dis him neither. 6. Don' ice ya bros. 7. Stick to ya own woman. 8. Don' be liftin no goods. 9. Don' be frontin like you all that an no snitchin on ya homies. 10. Don' be eyein' ya homie's crib, ride, or nothin."}, {"response": 8, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (01:59)", "body": "exquisite!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (17:48)", "body": "(Found on a bathroom wall somewhere in the U.S.A.) You've taken over my mind. You've raped my thoughts with your image viruses then sold me fake cures for your own disease. Your words and pictures scream orders at me like angry prison wardens. When I cover my ears, your voices echo in my head. I hate you. When I see your billboards, your talk shows, your rock concerts and your factories, when I see the work of your twisted libidos, I want to kill you. I want to set fires, plant bombs, derail trains. I want to smash your buildings and tear at your bodies until the skin of my hands is worn to the bone. I am filled with a rage that burns my eyes. I don't want to feel this way. You have done this to me. These feelings are the fruits of your multi-billion dollar sowing. And I am not alone. There are others like me out here. Every suicide, every madman, every man and woman who gets a gun and just starts shooting -- these are your illegitimate children. They don't all know what they are doing. All they know is hate for the invisible walls which you have raised around them, hate for the narrow path you have tried to make them walk. And the innocent pay in blood for your negligence. Remember this: My mind is big. The more you try to push me down and make me small, the greater the pressure inside me becomes. The greater the pressure, the greater the chance of an explosion. There was once a time when I felt love, but now I feel only hate and anger, and fear at what I might do. And you can tell me to \"BE HAPPY,\" but I know that you really mean \"BE QUIET\". Believe me, I want to be happy. You stand in my way. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 28, "subject": "My day's philosophy", "response_count": 405, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jun 12, 1998 (14:33)", "body": "We sometimes share things in the \"my life today\" topic in the porch conference,m Riette, but this diary idea is nice. Now that summer is here, and the girls are out of school, we spend our days doing the most fun stuff. Playing dress-up, going for long walks in the woods, acting out these incredibly imaginative scenarios that those two think up...they are just wonderful to be around. I feel so fulfilled like I never did from any job, and I just think we are so lucky to have each other--it's like we're in our own little world and no one else is invited (this is hard on Daddy). We have a school segment every day, where teach either French, writing, speech, math, art or geography. After I finish they always want a turn to be the teacher. Of course it's not always fun stuff, there are errands to run and arguments to mediate, etc., but overall it's a dream. I'm somewhat nervous/excited as we're going to look at a house tonight, but I don't want to jinx it by talking about it."}, {"response": 2, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun 12, 1998 (15:14)", "body": "Right, I won't ask. Except - how big? Glad to see you also enjoy your girls. It must be great with them being a bit bigger. I can't do quite so much with my two yet. Isa, the three year-old has been walking for all her life (started at 7 months!!), and is no problem, but Elza, the two year-old can't walk too far yet, so the pushchair still has to tag along most of the time . . . which is a pain. So I tend to stick to places that aren't too far away from home - she is really bad tempered, and a pain in the butt when tired and annoyed (not like me at all, of course!). But I love being a mother. I was really scared when I got pregnant with Isa - I felt like I was too young, and not ready and all that, even though we planned it that way because of our age difference. But now I would not change things for the world. And I love having girls - not sure what I would have done with boys. They are such little acresses! They always bring me their winter stockings, which I then have to pull over their heads; they pretend it's their long hair!! It's so hilarious! And, yes, I know about the dressing up too! It's great fun. Today I've made my first good sculpture, so I feel quite happy."}, {"response": 3, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Sat, Jun 13, 1998 (00:05)", "body": "i didn't know you did sculpture. i woke up this morning, oh okay it was this afternoon like around 3:00 or 4:00, well it was probably closer to 5:00. combed my eyelashes. plugged my nose. went out to eat to get me some dim sum (i always layer mine with nacho cheese & ketchup). came back home and got dressed. dusted off my photograph of Thomas Jefferson hugging Daffy Duck (taken by Edward Steichen, and i believe that happened on the same day Trotsky was killed in Mexico). I went to North Korea to check out all their Baskin-Robbins (was a little disappointed). Flew back to Austin in time for lunch (went to get some dim sum...they told me it was prepared in Brooklyn). Got home, took off my clothes and visited the PTA for the elementary school that's 11 blocks away (they were having their monthly meeting and i delivered a box of AK-47s to a big round of applause). Stopped off at a Motel 6 to see if they had any badminton birdies (bought a dozen, plus a satellite photo of a rootbeer in the hand of a Gatorade salesman in Vermont). Came back home, got dressed. Went out to eat (some dim sum, and at the height of its taste). Came back home, laid down in the bathtub, started thumpin' sum Chumba, fell asleep just as FedEx knocked on the door with a delivery of sum fresh bathwater. I didn't answer their knock. I was asleep. Had my eyes closed, too."}, {"response": 4, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jun 13, 1998 (01:42)", "body": "See, I knew this would be a good topic - it just explains everything, doesn't it? Wish I had such . . . eventful . . . days. You probably sleep in a coffin, right? ha-ha!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jun 13, 1998 (19:57)", "body": "Today I woke up late for my exam. And then discovered it was 5.10 a.m. I slept again, until around 9 a.m., when I decided to get up. I pottered around for a while, feeling weird about the two Finnish people who are living in our house at the moment. They're old friends of one of our housemates, the only weird thing being that he flew out of the country on Friday, leaving them here until Sunday. Did some revision around 11 a.m., decided that I knew most stuff, and pottered about doing lunch stuff and killing the PC (again...). Battled through the rain to the station (15 minute walk, which sucks when the weather's cack), got on the train, got off at school, walked to the library and found my fellow exam people. Sat in the library basement, eating chocolate bars, talking about exams and courses, which was quite nice. Saw some people who I haven't seen for a couple of weeks. I realised that I had kind of missed them. Not sure what it will be like over the summer. Did the exam. It was super easy - should get a good mark. Managed to derive an equation from scratch just by reasoning, which I was pretty chuffed with. Made a mistake in the second line of my first question, which carried through the whole thing (two sides of A4). I had to re-write the entire question in just 15 minutes (it was a 30 minute question). Not impressed. I finished with about 2 minutes to spare. Came home. Played music. Sang. Practised for tomorrow night, as I'm going to go and sing at one of the university bars. Now it's 1.45 a.m., and I should be in bed, ready for church tomorrow. But I'm not. Ooopsies."}, {"response": 6, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jun 14, 1998 (01:39)", "body": "You sound a bit like a character from Dead Poets Society! Do you sing well? And what instrument(s) do you play? Yesterday I painted my sculpture. He's a funny looking little African fellow, with something both noble and decadent about him, sitting on a stone, wearing a big, colourful mask and a black and white checked shirt. Think I'll call him Raka, after the half man creature who symbolizes downfall and its importance in society in African literature. He's defenitely going to be part of my next exhibition."}, {"response": 7, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jun 15, 1998 (12:49)", "body": "We're in the throes of packing, as we leave Friday for 2 weeks in New England (specifically Connecticut, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine and Quebec). It's done nothing but rain here and we can only hope sunny skies will prevail for this long-planned-for vacation. I am not driving 200 miles between destinations to sit in a hotel room playing Uno. Mike, I'm so glad your exams are going well--please tell us what kind of singing you do! Leplep, glad you're enjoying the dim sum! (LOL!) Riette, good for you for finding (or losing?) yourself in your sculpture, is it great to get the creative juices flowing or what? I get misty thinking about you pushing your daughter in a stroller, or maybe I'm just emotional in general these days. Offer made, countered, re-countered, rejected, blah blah blah. 3000 square feet (NO idea what that is in metric!!)"}, {"response": 8, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jun 15, 1998 (15:47)", "body": "ha-ha!!! But DON'T!! God, Autumn, I can't believe you've already forgotten what the first year is like!!! I mean, I love my kids, but I didn't enjoy the first year - no, two. Having the first one, getting pregnant again after five little months, being fat for nine, having another, and then that year with her and a big sister who was also still a baby, all those nappies, the crying, the getting up, the getting confused between which one was on the breast, and which on the bottle . . . . aaahhh!!! I can sure appreciate why my mother waited six years before having my brother - having your kids close together, you did too, didn't you?, is tough, but having twins, I think, must be absolute HELL!! Anyway, I hope you have a wonderful holiday - nothing in sight for us yet, but we may go up to Scotland in August, I'm going to Florence for a weekend with a friend in October, and after that I'm going to visit my sister in America - looking forward to that. Let's see, what did I do today, besides eating pancakes . .. Oh, yes, I'm disgustingly creative - I did a whole design for my next painting of 100 x 140 cm, which is going to be a still-life, AND painted two of the sunflowers in it!!! Spank me!!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun 16, 1998 (13:37)", "body": "Sitting on the cat scratching post in front of the computer desk, with Tahjs alternating between getting comfy in my lap and jumping up to chase my fingers on the keyboard. Been packing for days on end. The house is a reality for us but I certainly sympathize with your bidding woes Autumn. We lost the first house we wanted. I've gotten myself an internship at a computer training facility. Unpaid but on my own schedule. Trying to open up some doors. I don't think I'll be teaching for thirty years (at least not straight through). Took myself out for breakfast this morning. Coffee bagel. I needed a bustling spot in which to sit and write. I wrote a poem for my father to send for Father's Day. Seems the older I get, the fonder the memories are. My last few days have been spent in relative solutide (minus the time at the computer center). I've received a few letters from the friend I mentioned a couple of weeks ago (odd timing) and I've been thinking a good bit about my life in general... what am I happy with, what am I unhappy with, what can I change, what do I want to change? Just pondering. And writing. And packing."}, {"response": 10, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 17, 1998 (01:52)", "body": "Moving always depresses me. When I'm in one place, I'm not so aware of my mortality. But when one moves, then you realize that a chapter in your Life is now finished, no turning back, not a single day to be retrieved - it's just gone. And you living space with its memories is going to become the new chapter in someone else's life. I find that very sad somehow."}, {"response": 11, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun 17, 1998 (10:46)", "body": "I was morose and melancholy on Monday night. We have really made this house feel like a home and I worry about all the changes taking place with this new place but Brandon and I talked for hours about the good changes. He is so excited for me to get into this house. I haven't seen the inside since we bid on it but he went for final inspection a few days ago and was reminded how beautiful it is. How perfectly it suits our tastes. I'm chattering away on the computer but I need to go put on some nice clothes... we are going to the mortgage company in about 45 minutes to sign papers! I'm excited now. Still a bit nervous but excited. We discovered last night that our cats SUCK at hunting and catching bugs. They stalk them for hours and then start chasing each other. Attention Deficit I'm sure. Oh! And I got flowers yesterday \"just because.\" That gave me warm fuzzies."}, {"response": 12, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 17, 1998 (13:00)", "body": "That's great. I too had a rather nice day. In the midst of my coughing and splattering the phone suddenly rang; turns out Mr. C. had sent some photos of my pictures to a CD company without my knowing, and they want to use my work for some of their Jazz CD covers. I thought that really very nice, so I'll probably go for it."}, {"response": 13, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jun 17, 1998 (21:12)", "body": "What pleasant surprises you've both been having!! Both starting on a new venture(s)...Stacey, does your new house have a submarine galley kitchen too? I've been bitching about mine for 9 years, but the prospect of moving suddenly makes it sentimental. I keep looking around and saying, \"That's where L. took her first steps! This is the room they were conceived in!\" (NOT the galley) Like this house has our very essence in it. I can't help but think that our energy will remain if we leave, and that it ill enhance the well-being of the next owner. For all its shortcomings, I suspect it will always be the most special place we've ever lived."}, {"response": 14, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 18, 1998 (01:32)", "body": "I think my first house will be my last - I'll never let go of it again. I grew up in partly in a large colonial house, and partly on my grandfather's farm with all that space - living in a flat (because to buy a small house here in Switzerland costs about 3 million Sfr . . . ) really gets my ar$e. One earns so much money, but the quality of life as far as space and freedom are concerned, is SO much lower than in my third world home country."}, {"response": 15, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jun 20, 1998 (20:35)", "body": "My exams are still going well. Unfortunately I'm suicidal, which is bad. Starting to worry. The music went well last Sunday. I sang \"More Than Words\" by Extreme, and \"Right Here Waiting\" by Richard Marks. This week I've been singing \"Wonderful Tonight\", by Eric Clapton. I decided it might be interesting to learn to play it, so I did. It was surprisingly easy, even though I don't have a copy of the music to listen practice with. Pieced it together from memory. I can't remember the bridge, though, o I'll have to nick someone's CD. Went down to the beach tonight. Am depressed as fuck. Started to write to a friend, but got annoyed with self-pity. Came home. Drank a litre of orange juice and then decided to come here. I'm my own worst enemy at the moment. Don't seem to be able to do anything right for anyone at the moment. I do things for them, they don't care. I offer them places to live, they turn them down. I buy them gifts, they accept them with hardly a word. Shite. Today was Cake Day, where our housemate Christine comes home from work laden with cakes from the bakery. A particularly huge haul today, and much of it still sits on the kitchen floor. Great cakes. Still fucked up over here, though."}, {"response": 16, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jun 20, 1998 (23:39)", "body": "sorry to hear you so bummed, Mike... better watch it or you'll turn out like me..."}, {"response": 17, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jun 21, 1998 (02:44)", "body": "I'm trembling in my clothes at the very thought . . . Oh, Mike, I'm sorry you feel like this. I wish Jim would come back, because he is the one with the inspiring words. And I'm afraid I am the last person who can give you advice where depression is concerned, and how to deal with it. My way is a little unorthodox . . . I am sorry you feel unappreciated and without love - that would depress me too. You seem like a very generous, caring person - easy to rely on, and easy to use. Don't let that happen. There is, I think, a difference between between loving one's neighbour and allowing oneself to be stepped on. No-one deserves that, and you probably less than some. Care, but never stop treating yourself with the respect you deserve. Don't deny your own feelings. Don't hate yourself. Sometimes when I read that one of our friends here are having a difficult time, I so wish we all lived in the same town. That way we'd be able to organize an emergence meeting in my living room every time one of us needed it, and we'd really be able to help one another, instead of having to type a bunch of words into a dumb computer. Words aren't worth half as much as a hug (Teletubbies style!!) and the warm presence of friends who truly care. But if you get desperate, let me know - we're practically neighbours, so feel free to pop across and visit me whenever you like. You are probably also just in desperate need of a break with all this exam stress - it has been going on for weeks and weeks, and that's enough to drain anyone's energy and lust for life. Besides, the number of long faces here is enough to bring anyone to laughter!! But I am serious - I'm not just a written paragraph on your computer; you are my friend, and I am here for you, unable to give good advice, but willing to listen, and willing to help in any way I can. Just want you to know that."}, {"response": 18, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Jun 22, 1998 (13:54)", "body": "Same here. We mean more than words on a screen to each other."}, {"response": 19, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (16:29)", "body": "Mikey!!!! *big hug* wish I knew more about you, so I could suggest a course of action... or even what's getting you down, so we could talk about it. PLEEEEEAAAAAAAASE don't say it's this girl thing. Never, ever worth it! Besides, if your fond of someone and would be interested in a more intimate relationship, you have to make yourself look and feel as good as you are... not superficially, but attitude wise. If a hug will help (and they usually do), here is one big one coming throught he electronic ether... *HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUG* If a run or a scream or a yell or a really auful rendition of a melancholy song would be helpful... I've got the song part covered! hope things improve soon! Remember that sometimes in the depths of a great depression, there is great opportunity for growth!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (18:07)", "body": "I have something to share - something which caused me intense amusement today. I have this friend who also has a girl. She is determined not to let this child grow up with the gender thing. Only buys her what she calls, 'uni-sex toys', because she believes that if girls act girlish at the age of three, it's due to a sexist upbringing. We've argued about this a thousand times, but in the end I decided to respect her principles. Anyway, so the little girl had her birthday last Saturday, and I had Mr. C. take the girls and a present around to the party (I was already sick then). T e toy I sent was a plastic toolbox - a kind of 'Home Improvement' set for kiddies - thought it uni-sex enough. Today my friend rang up, furious, because Alexandra has started putting the little hammer to bed at night! I thought it was hilariously sweet."}, {"response": 21, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (18:24)", "body": "*lol*"}, {"response": 22, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (14:02)", "body": "guess there might just be something to that!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (15:47)", "body": "Got to be. Without teaching them it, my girls always walk around with their winter stockings over their little heads, flinging the legs demonstratively over their shoulders, pretending it's their long hair . . . So, Stacey, are you in the new house now? The box nightmare over yet? What's it like?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (19:34)", "body": "Yes and almost yes and amazing. Beautiful hardwood floors is perfect original condition (previously covered in carpet for forty years). All window sills and moldings are left their natural shade as well. A 6 1/2 foot by 4 foot window in the front room. Coved ceilings, original fixtures, crome and while porcelin tile bath (with great water pressure!), crome and white and slate blue kitchen (big enough to tango, bunny hop and merengue in!), fabulous sycamore trees in the front, grand total of nine raspberry bushes in the back and side. Co ered patio/plant room. Sunny, bright, just really comfortable yet roomy feeling. The straight logistics are... 1400 finished sq feet upstairs, 1000 finished sq feet downstairs (basement), two car detached garage, two bath, four bedroom house. I ripped down the drape hanger thingamajigs last night and had to spackle and repaint the holes that were left but it looks MUCH better without those contraptions. I took the drapes down IMMEDIATELY. I hate drapes. They are the natural enemies of bright light in a home. The remind me of coldness, dark, melancholy... they do not belong. All is mostly unpacked and Brandon comes home tomorrow night, one hour after his brother arrives to be our first house guest! Most of my time is being spent in the gardens, planting, turning soil, weeding, making mud pies! I love to work/play in the flowers!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (19:35)", "body": "Yes and almost yes and amazing. Beautiful hardwood floors is perfect original condition (previously covered in carpet for forty years). All window sills and moldings are left their natural shade as well. A 6 1/2 foot by 4 foot window in the front room. Coved ceilings, original fixtures, crome and while porcelin tile bath (with great water pressure!), crome and white and slate blue kitchen (big enough to tango, bunny hop and merengue in!), fabulous sycamore trees in the front, grand total of nine raspberry bushes in the back and side. Co ered patio/plant room. Sunny, bright, just really comfortable yet roomy feeling. The straight logistics are... 1400 finished sq feet upstairs, 1000 finished sq feet downstairs (basement), two car detached garage, two bath, four bedroom house. I ripped down the drape hanger thingamajigs last night and had to spackle and repaint the holes that were left but it looks MUCH better without those contraptions. I took the drapes down IMMEDIATELY. I hate drapes. They are the natural enemies of bright light in a home. The remind me of coldness, dark, melancholy... they do not belong. All is mostly unpacked and Brandon comes home tomorrow night, one hour after his brother arrives to be our first house guest! Most of my time is being spent in the gardens, planting, turning soil, weeding, making mud pies! I love to work/play in the flowers! The garden would have to be one of my favorite places (at least third according to my 'travel' post! *smile*)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jun 25, 1998 (19:36)", "body": "oops! I guess I pushed 'stop' a bit too late to halt the first response!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun 26, 1998 (01:39)", "body": "That does sound amazing. And I agree with your drape-horrification. I haven't a single drape in my place either. My mother out-law thinks I'm the ultimate un-wife for it, but she's as cold and dark and dreary as a drape anyway, so it merely proves my point. You have a nice garden too? That's the most amazing thing for me about living in a country where it rains - the gardens actually have flowers and trees in them!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (18:59)", "body": "got to share this... I have a student in my ESY class who is wheelchair bound, fed through a g-tube and has no muscular coordination whatsoever. SOMEtimes, I think I can get his eyes to follow me, but rarely. Well today we were all in a large group discussion, I always ask him questions with the other kids and include him in on our lessons because who really knows what is going on in that brain?!?! Well today, I asked if he was okay, \"how ya doing H? You okay?\" And he SAID, \"ya.\" I was floored, the kids were floored. Was this just a coincidental non-verbal (merely vocal) utterance or had H responded to me? I said, \"Hello there H!\" He said, \"HI.\" Plain as f-ing day! I lost it! Laughing and telling him he was a faker, and that we had all been snowed. His eyes rolled around and he got a big smile on his face! I'm just SO excited! He is so severely limited that to be able to communicate in even yes-no fashion is like a whole different world! *beaming*"}, {"response": 29, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (21:33)", "body": "Major beams there Stace, I can feel what you're feeling about this. Wow, what a breakthrough."}, {"response": 30, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (21:40)", "body": "simply incredible (congrats)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (21:55)", "body": "still beaming... (thanks guys, somehow I think you really do know exactly how I feel about this!)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (21:56)", "body": "and nick... it's kinda like believing in the power of magic! *smile*"}, {"response": 33, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (22:35)", "body": "yep (good to hear you say so)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (22:41)", "body": "stacey that is amazing. see, he heard you the whole time! big hugs to you and mr H. mikeg: dude, *squeeze* hang in there. you know we're all cramming right along with you! so this is supposed to be, like, a diary. well, i've tried to keep journals but my life is so utterly boring that even i can't bring myself to write about it. (actually, not boring, but, not exciting) hi nick *smile*"}, {"response": 35, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (22:47)", "body": "hi *dumb grimace* (uh right... don't ask)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (22:49)", "body": "i'll ask......you not happy to see me? *wink*"}, {"response": 37, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (22:53)", "body": "no, that's not it (just my usual... you know, facial expression thing... how i meet the world, you know?)"}, {"response": 38, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (22:55)", "body": "careful cuz it can send the wrong message....so, how the heck have you been?"}, {"response": 39, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (22:59)", "body": "really well, all in all... um... actually, excellent... et tu?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:02)", "body": "not really, but thanks for asking. glad you're happy and not so bummed out anymore!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:07)", "body": "\"bummed out\"???? (ME?) why... i'm afraid i don't know what you mean... (must be all that sun)..."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:08)", "body": "oh, was that what it was?"}, {"response": 43, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:17)", "body": "could be... or maybe your heads all clouded up from all those bedouin sheik fantasies you've likely brought back... (or shepherd fantasies... or uh something)..."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:18)", "body": "let's just say fantasies (trust me, no shieks were involved)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:30)", "body": "will you be here tomorrow sometime? i'm sleepy, but would love to stay and chat. let me know...."}, {"response": 46, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:34)", "body": "so rudy valentino can exhale now?"}, {"response": 47, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:35)", "body": "who is rudy valentino? (and if you're referring, maybe, to the status of my, company, i have no visitors this evening)"}, {"response": 48, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:39)", "body": "*sigh* rudy valentino... you know, \"the sheik\"... silent pictures..."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:41)", "body": "i knew you were going to say that, why, yes, as a matter of fact, he's in the other room, but he keeps having to pull out these cards with what he's thinking on them. hmm, not very romantic......"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:42)", "body": "not to mention the band in the living room, and rudy's, uh, very pale. think i'll send him back....."}, {"response": 51, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:44)", "body": "anyway, g'night...."}, {"response": 52, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Jun 30, 1998 (23:49)", "body": "my god... can you and- no! -be the same- (no- no, couldn't be)..."}, {"response": 53, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (01:14)", "body": "Stacey, the work you are doing is the kind of thing that makes a difference to this world and its people. I truly admire that. Not too much happening over here, but the sex is good, and we got the girls little baby guinea pigs - they're totally sweet! The still life is coming on great; my work is showing some clear signs of evolution, and I think it's a positive thing . . . if only it could turn into a reflection of the soul; I swear if my soul looked like my pictures I'd be a babe! But it isn't . . . seems I've scared poor Jim away altogether with my big mouth. Damn!"}, {"response": 54, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i'm sure that you have a beautiful soul, riette...too bad not very many people can see beyond what's on the surface. nick: what in the heck are you talking about? (sorry i left so abruptly, but my baby girl wouldn't leave the mama alone, supposedly she couldn't sleep cuz i was awake-the things they do to try and stay up)"}, {"response": 55, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "fuckin' hell. do you reckon i can let it out here? i hate to swear. fuck fuck shit bollocks shit shit fuck. this post is a scroll-through for those of you who can't cope/don't care; don't feel bad, just press PgDn. stream of consciousness On. i'm a mess. an absolute mess. i sit in this room, and i wonder about what on earth is happening to me. where the hell am i going? why the hell am i so ugly? why doesn't anybody care? well, why should they bloody care? i'm jack shit to them. except i feel like i should be something. somebody. i feel as if i make an effort; that i'm worth at least a thought - hell, maybe even a phone call. alas, no. and the irony is that i haven't even got anyone to tell. the way i feel makes me so insecure that can't tell anyone how i feel to get some security back; some encouragement. bah. encouragement is bunk. a million people could tell me i was the greatest thing that ever fucking lived, but if i didn't get a single phone call it wouldn't mean anything. and so i'm here. an invisible person with the invisible people. as an invisible person whose only solidity is the words on the screen. yet they are only bits and bytes of data; electrical impulses in a cable; magnetic orientations on a platter. is this what i am reduced to? electricity and magnetism; always my least favourite subject in physics, as it happens. not that i want to belittle you all here. far from it. i received more support from the past postings that i've just read than from anywhere else. maybe the physial barrier of distance allows me to open up more than i would otherwise. haven't psychologists shown that? easier to be yourself in a letter, than a phone call or a f2f meeting; even easier, one would guess, to be one's self in a letter to people never met. so you're there, perhaps, reading this. probably wondering what the fuck is going o . and i'm getting fed up with making corrections in my typing. i can type at 148 words per minute, but i'm reduced to two-finger tappity-tap because i broke my finger. some things never change. the only things i can play on the guitar at the moment are minor chords and suspended chords. none of them record the happiest sound. that's probably not helping. music has always been the escape before. would it be this time? probably not, actually. I'd just sit around and play minor chords any way. I scored 44/100 on a depression test. 0 is perfectly normal, and i guess 100 is swinging from the rafters by your belt. it suggested that i go and see my doctor about it: \"they can do great things with drugs these days\". yeah, right. \"You don't know me, Doc, but i've fucked up my life. Will you pump me full of Prozac, please?\". the other score of the last fortnight was 147 on an IQ test. depressed brainy person; or, in the immortal words of my favourite comedian, \"you fucked up ridiculum\". Fucked up. Ridiculous. With a superb wardrobe, a natty hair-do, great shoes, broad shoulders, blonde hair. what the fuck is so wrong with me. i've even tried the \"internal smiling\" business, where it's not just a front, but i really do smile inside. i've even been deliriously happy. nothing works. i'm fundamentally unlovable, unlikeabl , un-look-at-able, and that last one's not even a word. if you've got this far without getting bored or dying of depression yourself, you're wondering what the fuck has caused all of this. well, your guess is as good as mine. being walked over, maybe. ignored, probably. uncherished? cherish is too strong a word. uncared about? care is too strong, again. un-give-a-fuck-about-ed? that's a bit closer to it. no-one gives a fuck. well, that's not true. the standard people give a fuck: parents, sister etc., but no-one who *mattters*. i know, i know, tha 's wrong; those people are the most important people to care, but that's not how it feels. Are they obliged to? Well, perhaps. A mother is perhaps obliged to love her child, but that's missing the point. the point being that i don't have to *earn* it with her. with other people i do have to earn it, and despite all my trying, i've fallen flat fuck on my face. some things are so fine. my exams went pretty well, my future is fairly sorted out whatever happens with my degree. in so many areas i have nothing to worry about. yet i don't have anyone to share that with. i bought a new computer game on saturday (it was that or more wardrobe-stuff, and i decided i didn't need *more* clothes), and it's really cool. really really cool. but i haven't told anyone about it, because there's no-one to tell. it just stays inside me, along with everything else, bubbling p and boiling and going nowhere. it won't even explode. i seem to be emotionless, apart from this incredible emptiness. it's like when you're staring death in the face and all panic leaves you; or when the body gets so hypothermic that it stops shivering. :i'm sure that you have a beautiful soul, riette...too bad not very many people :can see beyond what's on the surface. oh fuck, too rig"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "so that's what's got you down? you're right. you don't mean anything to me because I don't even know who the hell you are. but if you think for one minute that you're ugly, unloveable, and all that, well, maybe you are. but to me, and this won't mean anything to you, i think you are the opposite of all that. you have a beautiful soul too, so don't be afraid to let it out. and don't let anyone else be the designer of who you are, don't let them influence you. if they can't handle you because of who ou are, you don't need them. and i know how lonely that feels, i'm sometimes afraid to be who i really am. and none of this will help because am i in your shoes? no. but thanks for feeling safe to let all this out here to us strangers. *hug*"}, {"response": 57, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "hey mike... really sorry to hear you feeling like this... you're a decent guy... just need to find some perspective, maybe... and- well, it's like... i dunno, a lot of the things you've written before had some effect on me... really admired the way you've stood up for what you believed in (i often don't have that kind of courage)... i'm a christian, too... and find it hard sometimes defending my faith, among those that question it... makes me feel bad, sometimes... remember a scripture where jesus said something like 'how can you expect me to intercede for you with god when you don't stand up for me among men?' not a pleasing question for me to answer, but one you certainly won't face... anyway, faith's the thing (maybe the only thing) that can get you through these kind of feelings.. pulling for you, you know?"}, {"response": 58, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "Mike, I'm a smart girl. I know the difference between real threats and the monsters in my head. But one day the monsters in my head came out and started line-dancing before my very eyes. I was involved in a relationship that meant a lot to me, perhaps too much. I spent all my time giving to this 'entity' and another person that when something went wrong in that department, I had nothing else to define me but a dying relationship and a everdistancing best friend. I desperately wanted to matter to someone, I desperately wanted to have that beautiful opinion of myself that everyone else seemed to have of me. Mike, I did a lot of... searching I suppose is what it was. I rode my bike, ran, cried, wrote. I sat blankly in front of reality if I needed to, but never without many strangers surrounding me. I talked alot. I talked to strangers (face to face even!), I talked to myself, I talked to the birds and squirrels I saw along the trail. I am not unfamiliar with depression, my father was clinically depressed and on medication for 10 years... when it was NOT a socially acceptable disease. My baby brother became suicidal at age 15... We all get down from time to time, this sounds more severe. Because I was aware how far depression can drag someone below the surface of reality, I never let myself get that far. I called a shrink. I took myself to the shrink. I talked her ear off. I wished all the while that I could depend on a friend to vent my 'troubles' to but I knew that I was beyond that and was only bringing them down. My therapist never got a chance to psychoanalyze me... well not a chance to share the results anyway... she asked me to write a one page essay on who I was. I brought in the most contradictary prose I had ever written, every last word of it true... suddenly I began to see the complexity of my own soul, appreciate it's worth and desire to see the light at the end of the tunnel again. When you love so deeply, completely and passionately, it is very easy to become overwhelmed by your emotions. This is often a good thing. But... when you put your self worth in the hands of others, when you make your worth dependent on the reactions of others... you are bound to get crushed, dropped and/or mistreated. Put your love where it wants to be and let it free, allow the love and capacity for such to define who you are... not anyone's reaction to it. Mike, you are hurt and you are worth fixing... please help to fix yourself because no else is or even can do it. Much affection and good vibes coming your way!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "brava"}, {"response": 60, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "as much as I forget it, and at times can't even admit it, what Stacey said is right..."}, {"response": 61, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "another thought: you might want to try doing nothing and just being, 'cause you are thinking too much (Stacey can probably explain this better than I, too)"}, {"response": 62, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "an influential friend once said that: \"You know your problem, Mike? You think too much.\" Thank you all for what you have written. i have started to realise that i am fucked up, real bad. gonna go out and find someone to help deal with it tomorrow. for now i'm just going to try and cry my eyes out, and my heart out. maybe thast will help"}, {"response": 63, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "'tis a good thing to get help, Mike, otherwise you might end up as screwed up as I am, and that's really scary..."}, {"response": 64, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i agree with wer/stacey/nick...once, my therapist said what are you? a human doing or a human being....i have clung to that...don't wait until tomorrow, my friend, call someone today....we are here for you and listen, we've got similar stories to tell, sweetie, big hugs, oh, and a peck on the cheek, k? no teeth!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "no teeth? :-) i would call someone now, but it's 1.15 am (and not 2036)"}, {"response": 66, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "what? there's no one on call 24/7? (don't we look pretty good to be in the year 2036?)"}, {"response": 67, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i could phone up nightline at the university, but they'd probably fob me off with a packet of condoms, a dental dam and a latex glove."}, {"response": 68, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "there's that humor! you guys don't have a crisis line or something? what about your mom? (i won't be offended if you say heck no, i tried talking to mine, but since then, we haven't spoken for several years)"}, {"response": 69, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i am afraid."}, {"response": 70, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "of?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i am afraid."}, {"response": 72, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "ok. do you want to talk about it?"}, {"response": 73, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i am afraid."}, {"response": 74, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "Mike?"}, {"response": 75, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "bloody hell. netscape is going crazy. i am afraid of admitting that i have a problem. problems. i'm looking at the samaritan's web site, and all i have to do is lift the phone and dial the number, but....how the hell will i do that?"}, {"response": 76, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "pick it up, dial the number. you have already admitted it and to the person who matters the most. you, my dear."}, {"response": 77, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i look like mr melodrama after those two extra \"i'm afraid\"'s :-)) plonker."}, {"response": 78, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "no, figured there was a gliche in the system. did you call?"}, {"response": 79, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "the problem is, i'd feel nervous picking up the phone to dial for a pizza, let alone admitting that i'm barking mad."}, {"response": 80, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "that's alright. i get nervous dialing for a pizza too, like what, they're gonna ask me something really hard-what's the square root of the cosine to a trillion and seventy-five. you have thirty seconds to answer."}, {"response": 81, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "and i hate the phone. it's the most artificial of all media."}, {"response": 82, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "and this isn't? *grin* no faces...just a screen, with, hopefully, someone half-way intelligent on the other end..."}, {"response": 83, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i just hate the phone. it's an irrational fear. which is probably caught up in all this other crap which is packing me off to the funny farm."}, {"response": 84, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "now, stop that. it's not irrational and i don't think it means you're nuts. irrationality is something applied when viewed by someone else. you're the one who feels it so isn't it valid?"}, {"response": 85, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "good point. i've decided to try their e-mail address, but putting down why i'm a banana-plantation doesn't seem to be easy."}, {"response": 86, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "no it's never easy. but it gets easier. (and i'm glad you're gonna try)"}, {"response": 87, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "good point. i've decided to try their e-mail address, but putting down why i'm a banana-plantation doesn't seem to be easy."}, {"response": 88, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i had no idea this would be so difficult. maybe i should just send them my stream of consciousness from before."}, {"response": 89, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "just tell them stuff you've told us. perhaps they can refer you to someone local...."}, {"response": 90, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "and i'm proud of you for trying, and admitting, you are very brave, you know that?"}, {"response": 91, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "Hey Mike... *laughing* I've got to admit it... with the sequential \"I am afraid\" posts... I was becoming... well... afraid myself! I picked up the phone today (overcoming a considerable amount of nervousness...) and called Brandon's estranged half sister (also named Stacey). I am tired of hearing how he would like to get in touch with her, have a relationship with her, blah, blah, blah... but he never picks up the phone, sends an email or a card. I know it is none of my business but, in all honesty, I was hoping that turn about would continue to be fair play and someone would do the same to my baby brother who I have VERY little contact with. We had a nice (superficial and short) chat. I am sending her a packet of pictures and every fathomable way to contact us... I hope something good comes of all this. Sending more hugs and good vibes your way Mike!"}, {"response": 92, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "that was really, like, bold, Stacey...are you sure he's ready? i'm estranged from my parents and my husband has a wonderful relationship with them. it makes me mad because i feel betrayed (yes, that's selfish of me, but...)"}, {"response": 93, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "i worry a tad about his reaction but... the estrangement comes from his NON-relationship with his mother... NOT from any bad mojo between the two siblings. Now that his sister is away from his biological mother... MUCH less stress. He needs prompting, always has. This is the same way he become reconnected with his grandfather... yes, I am a meddler... with the best of intentions."}, {"response": 94, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (10:48)", "body": "nothing wrong with that, really...my estrangement comes from long ago stuff that i went to therapy for and was able to face. Mr Wolf just doesn't understand how it makes me feel for him to call and chat. And he won't even talk to his own dad. (ok, he hasn't talked to my parents in a while)"}, {"response": 95, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul  1, 1998 (23:01)", "body": "oh.. to be like a cat. Tahja is stalking and chasing a piglet Beanie Baby around the basement with a crumpled up piece of newspaper covering her head and half her body. She is having a fabulous time, mewling and purring and running into things! (this is taking me forever to type because I keep stopping to watch, laugh and tease!) I suppose an instance like this it what gives cats a reputation for being theraputic!"}, {"response": 96, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (04:26)", "body": "So are the little guinea-pigs. They're just so incredibly sweet - I can't stop cuddling them. It's been years since I had pets, and I only realize now how much I've missed it."}, {"response": 97, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (15:47)", "body": "package that cut up and send it over here :-) if there's one thing i can't resist, it's a kitty. no therapy for me. i decided that it was probably a fiscal mistake to pay 40 pounds an hour for someone to tell me i'm a fruit - I already know that. i sent a stupid letter to someone, which should have arrived today. fill that empty space with stuff that's guaranteed to hurt. well, when you're down you might as well make sure someone's kickin' ya. (i'm having thoughts and just typing them, again) if i stopped being the bread-basket that I am, I'd stop being me. or i'd change into a new me. is that appealing? partly, i guess. maybe it would be a better me. dunno if i can answer that question. i find it a strange idea to think that the way i feel inside could change. i've felt the way i do for *so* long...like, forever, i guess, so the question of whether change is appealing is moot: it's incomprehensible, and improbable. i've now eaten a proper meal for the last four nights in a row, which is a record for the last month probably. i might be depressed, but i can't be that bad. but i am. or was. last night must have been a bit of a watershed or something; not the lowest i'll go, i doubt. DIFFERENT THERAPY TECHNIQUE. ALL CAPS. no, that didn't work. all lower case is nice - makes me feel very discreet; like one of those pocket vibrators disguised as a lipstick. why the hell do people carry those anyway? quick one in the toilet, between acts at the opera? that's like no woman i've ever met. what the hell are these things marketed for? have they ever sold one? barkin'. maybe i could consult for them. i had coffee today. and then a nice caffeine rush which made my head spin like crazy. it's definitely caffeine that's causing those, which is a relief. thirty seconds into my first exam last month, and the room decided to spin like mad; i thought, \"here we go\". i have been experimenting with the chords that i can play. i have managed to find something vaguely hapy, or at least intriguing, which makes me happy. i'm going to see a posh doctor tomorrow; hopefully as we're throwing him a fortune, he won't grin at me nicely and tell me to get on with leaving it to heal. don't they realise how *important* my hands are to me?? alien therapy has been one that i've neglected. gotta go squeeze mergle so that he lighs up and talks; always makes me grin. cue mergle: The claw is my MASTER i have been CHOSEN! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO................. neat. ramble ramble ramble. this is good therapy, actually. like writing in my diary, but without the headfuck of no-one ever reading that. last night was the first time i'd ever shared those feelings. with anyone. which is fairly big for me, seeing as i've still got diaries from like four or five years ago, and can remember what happened on particular days, in ridiculous detail. i dobut i'll remember much of last night's, though; it was like a temporary insanity. insanity is too strong a word. madness? well, i'm barkin' anyway, so that doesn't count. i was wired to the moon. that's a good description. if my fingers had been working it probably would have lasted forever. writing without thought. except it's like thinking. it's thinking without the thought process interrupting, trying to compartmentalise things, to rationalise, to paragraph them, even. just hit the return key when you feel the need. i cut my nails today, which made me feel loads better. yes, yes, i know i'm bonkers. interesting fact: the nails on the hand with the broken finger were significantly shorter than those on the other hand. inriguing. i'm sure there's some dry, biological, scientific explanation for it. hell, i probably know it. but there's something nice in not thinking and just going \"hey, that's cool.\". return key again. i didn't even think about it that time. didn't even occur to me. natural reaction. maybe it was the speech marks. i'd better get these fingers healed soon, because this typing is driving me round the twist. i fancy more coffee. but it'll keep me up late. yay! i get to go on the express train to london, tomorrow, which is always fun. probably best not to have a gin and tonic before i go to the clinic, though, even if they are just checking my hands. best to stick with a soft dr nk. i love it. this train of thought business is so relaxing. i'm just here, rambling, talking crap. it's great. i'm sure it pisses you all off. maybe i need my own topic? how about my own conference, to which i invite no-one but myself. hehehe :) great. time to press the \"Submit response\" button."}, {"response": 98, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (16:07)", "body": "bark all you want (and keep wired to the moon)... (and when you figure out those pocket vibrators let me know okay?) think you're gonna be alright... (and... anyway... like emily said- \"much madness is divinest sense\"... hell, that's my credo)"}, {"response": 99, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (17:54)", "body": "hmmm, a pocket vibrator, huh? know anywhere i could get one of those? *wink* don't worry about rambling, heck, i do it all the time (not that that makes you feel any better). besides, that's when the best ideas come to light, you know, free of the conventionalism of order and junk. glad to see you back *hug* nick: hi, sorry for running off (again)"}, {"response": 100, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (23:23)", "body": "can't figure out why anyone wants their pocket to vibrate..."}, {"response": 101, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (23:48)", "body": "*heehee*"}, {"response": 102, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul  3, 1998 (00:58)", "body": "Well, muffin, if you were to walk up to a girl with a vibrating pocket she'll know just how flexible and whippy that spatula of yours is! Mike, this topic was created by a professional rambler, so don't stop. AND DON'T CHANGE PS: I also loved Toy Story - especially tHAT bit!!!"}, {"response": 103, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul  3, 1998 (17:04)", "body": "weee....i might open a new topic called \"mike's fucked-up brain/life\". i think that life might sound a bit piteous, though, so i'll probably go with brain. if indeed i open it; there's something about a particular topic that makes it \"sacred\", i find. you gradually become more and more confident in posting as you grow to \"know\" the topic. bah, whatever. it's only words, after all. i went to see a hand surgeon today, in a posh private hospital just off Harley Street in London. if you don't know anything about the UK, then Harley Street is the place where all of the top geezers hang out and practice their alchemic trades. the surgeon gave me lots of advice on how to treat my finger, what to do with etc. it seem that if i had followed the advice of the previous people i had seen, then i would have lost probably 50% of the motion in my finger, which would have been my musical career (of any description) out of the window. thank goodness for medical insurance. i thought of something which made me feel all wobbly today. i remembered the time that i properly proposed to my erstwhile fiancee. getting two minutes at the end of our church youth group, trotting over to my coat and getting the ring out of it. then, popping back over to Louise, dropping down upon bendeth knee, and just doing the business. great. i'm one of those romantics who make you want to puke. if i'd have stopped to think for five minutes, and really been honest with myself, then maybe she a d i would still be together. impulsive prat, that's me. oh well. what would life be without mike being a dick and messing stuff up? people keep popping back into my brain just recently, which is probably a sign that there's a space not being filled by new stuff. caught in a nostalgia circle. did i write that here or in my diary? can't remember. blimey, i can't even remember what i posted last time. that's the fun of doing this - i've no idea what's going to come out until it appears on the screen. on the up-side, i can type again. i went to see the doctor, as i think i said, and he said that i should really start exercising it gain. it's phenomenally weak, and i've got a lot of motion to regain, but it's great being able to get my words out again. it was lovely being treated like a person at the hospital. a person with an injury, not a statistic holding up the next statistic in the queue. great. my father and i spoke to each other today. that makes it sound more dramatic than it was. we talk all the time, but never about real stuff; we talkk about the weather, about sport, about what i need etc., but not about real stuff. just something he's not very...good at, i guess. but today we spoke about some cool stuff, which was nice. it was good to get up to london, today. puts things in even more of a perspective. there are so many people there that *somebody* has to fancy you ;)"}, {"response": 104, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul  3, 1998 (17:48)", "body": "Mike, you sound very, very lonely. (sigh) I think most of us can relate - please keep believing that. You know, finding the person of your dreams is no guarantee that this depression and loneliness is going to go away. Sometimes finding that person can indeed make a lingering depression far, far worse, stupid as this may sound. You see, if you find someone with whom you can be perfectly at ease, and feeling, all the things that have been bottled up for years, things you might not even be aware of, are set free, and they come rushing into your heart and mind and gushing out of your eyes and lips and your every action in terrible fits of anger and dispair. I know. I very very nearly drove my loved-one away with my black anger and ugly fears, simply because they all descended upon me from every possible side at a time when I least expected it, they caught me unawares when I was supposed to be happy, and I had no idea how to deal with them. All my life I fought to get away from the things that bred these terrors inside my head, and then it dawned upon me that neither time, nor space, nor all the love in t e world was going to take it away. I was terrified. And though one thinks the person who loves us should be capable of helping, and that they MUST help us, because they love us, they aren't. Because they don't, they CAN'T know where it all comes from, they might listen as hard as they can, but still they will not be able to put themselves in our position, they have pasts and skeletons of their own to deal with. And then, because they love us so much, they think it is aimed against them. It is inevita le for us to project our deepest feelings onto those who are closest to us, because we want them (not even consciously alot of the time) to share, to feel our feelings. And that's what isn't fair about it. They experience it as angers towards THEM, fear towards THEM, dispair because of THEM. Do you know what I am trying to say? Solve the cause, not the outcome of the problem before you give yourself to another. Only that way will you be able to share it in such a way that she will be able to support you, and only that way will you be able to support her and make her happy too, despite past hurts. I am sorry, my advice is never good, but it is sent your way with much love."}, {"response": 105, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (06:21)", "body": "your advice is always good, since it is advice. everyone's advice has been good in one way or another."}, {"response": 106, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (08:54)", "body": "How are you feeling now, Mike? Oh, and to all our friends from America. HAPPY 4TH OF JULY!!!!!!!"}, {"response": 107, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (09:06)", "body": "well, i'm ok. which is good. i'm fairly up and down i guess, so while i'm happy now, in a few days i perhaps won't be. dunno. i'll just keep on checking in here and spewing my guts when i need to. thanks for being here."}, {"response": 108, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (09:21)", "body": "Always"}, {"response": 109, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (23:51)", "body": "Wow, you really miss a lot when you take a vacation around here! I will add my concern to that expressed by the others, Mike, and hope you will do what you must to take care of yourself. Once you accept the special person you are, others will see it too because it will come from within, not from clothes, hairstyle, whatever. Hope your finger will recover soon, I always loved \"Wonderful Tonight\" (or anything by Eric clapton, for that matter)."}, {"response": 110, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (01:11)", "body": "Eric Clapton is a great guitarist. The little guinea piggies are really sweet. For some reason they love sitting on my shoulders, under my hair - it looks very funny with just their little white noses sticking out. SWEET! Still life has only four or five days' work ahead now . . . getting excited!"}, {"response": 111, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (08:04)", "body": "hi autumn... (glad to see you're back)... (ditto re: clapton... Absolute Greatest, in my book)..."}, {"response": 112, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (08:49)", "body": "shiiiitte. just had something like a major kick in the guts. i'm packing up my room at the moment, as i am moving house tomorrow. i was going through a box of stuff, chucking out the rubbish in it etc., and I came across a cartooon book called \"I Love You\", given to me by my former fiancee. i looked at the inscription in the front cover, and it nearly made me blub my face off. however, composure reigned supreme, and i just put it aside and carried on with the box emptying. the very next thing i came across was letter from her; one of scores and scores that i've got. for whatever reason, i decided to open it, and lo and behold it's the letter she sent the day after we split up. talk about reversing the emotion. i'm liked, gutted at the moment. what the hell do you do when you love someone for nearly ten years and you've come right round to end up in your starting place?"}, {"response": 113, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (10:26)", "body": "guess you just start over *hug*"}, {"response": 114, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (12:46)", "body": "there's only one thing worse than being depressed. it's being depressed, having somewhere to talk about it, typing in a whole load of exactly how you feel, and then losing it because netscape throws a wobbly. now i'm cheered right up. i'm on the floor, Ladies and Gentlemen, and remaining here for quite a while - possibly the whole summer! Let me hear a round of applause, yes, yes, thankyou, thankyou! would anybody mind if i just topped myself now?"}, {"response": 115, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (17:46)", "body": "i can't let go. of a lot of things. of hundreds of things. so i'm going to post them all here, as and when i think of them, in the hope that it'll be some form of exorcism. once again, this is a guilt-free PgDn situation for everyone. i can't let go of a score of girlfriends. people who i went out with years and years ago, for usually small periods. times that are inconsequential, and with people who probably don't even remember me. and now i'm going to name them. Helen. Sarah. Oh fuck yes, Sarah. Emma. Emma and the guilt. Louise. Louise and the immense guilt! how much guilt can one person feel? how badly can one person fuck up? how can one person fuck up a perfect God-given gift? and these are the things that are keeping me sane at the moment. if i let go of them, what the hell will i fill my brain with? there's no input at the moment. nothing to fill the space that giving up these things would leave. and so i hang on, and in some perverse way, they keep me sane. sanity through insanity. what the hell is that about? i know that if these things go, then i'll go right out of my mind, get locked up and they'll throw away the key. left in a padded room for the rest of my life, till wrestling with this crap, but without the opportunity to ever deal with it. gotta stay sane. mustn't go mad. what else can't i let go of. past successes. in anything. the fact that i screwed up my 18+ exams, when i should have waltzed through about five of them. the fact that i never live up to my potential. the fact that, although i thought i was so different, i'm just like my brother, who is one of the biggest tossers alive. i'm afraid of what the world demands of me. i'm getting older every day, and i'm not coping at the moment, so what the fuck will it be like in five years? i'm already suffering at the hands of my memory, of nostalgia, of being caught in some vicious downward spiral of self-pity. unable to claw my way back up. just grabbing onto the thing that's taking me down, because without it i'd fall even faster. i'm fucked. that's what it is. i'm totally and absolutely fucked. all that stuff with my mother. ll that stuff as a child. that's why i'm fucked. how can i get un-fucked?"}, {"response": 116, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (22:09)", "body": "for starters, mike, you can let go. i know this story that i think of when i feel this way. there was a man hanging on the edge of a cliff. he begged God to help him. God said, \"Let go.\" the man argued that if he let go he would fall to his death. God simply said again, \"Let go.\" But the man didn't want to listen thinking for sure that he would just die if he let go. Finally, God said again, \"Let Go!\" the man let go and landed on his feet. he only had a foot to drop. you see? though it isn't easy, fear always makes things harder, but once you let go of those things, you will allow yourself to be free to find all the things you want. no, you won't lose the memory. and think of them as stepping stones, not failures or where you f'ed up. you did the best you could in each situation with the knowledge you had at the time. so, next time, don't do it again, huh? *hug*"}, {"response": 117, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (22:43)", "body": "Well put, Wolf! Those are wise words, Mike, though easier said than done..."}, {"response": 118, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (01:15)", "body": "And we understand. Letting go is a very hard thing to do. And don't ever think you're like you're brother or any other tosser alive. You are Mike. Just that, no-one and nothing else. And if you don't always live up to your own standards (which I imagine must be incredibly high), it is because you are human, not because you're a bad person or weak or anything like that. We all miss wonderful chances in our lives, but we also TAKE wonderful chances from time to time, and that we must never let slip ou of our sight. And, Mike, I go to England fairly often, and one thing I've noticed about that country, is the fact that ALL the girls there are like ten thousand times more attractive than me, so . . . . . . . you're SURROUNDED by beautiful women, Mike. Just keep those bright eyes wide open, and choose the one you want. (Have been to your home page, you see, and I've seen for myself that you're not the kind of chap alot of women would say no to . . . \ufffdwicked smile\ufffd). But first you'll have to let go o Helen and Louise etc. of course . .."}, {"response": 119, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (14:34)", "body": "The letting go story... I actually heard it a bit differently... A man hanging from a branch dangling over a cliff... \"is there anyone up there? God? Please help me!\" God says, \"Let go.\" The man says, \"Help me, please!!\" God says, \"Let go.\" The man, sweat pouring down his brow, looks up and says... \"Is there anyone ELSE up there?\" (mike, it's hard to let go... we all understand that) (glad to see the stream of consciousness writings work for someone other than myself!)"}, {"response": 120, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (14:56)", "body": "(lol)"}, {"response": 121, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (16:16)", "body": "Nick! What a pleasant surprise!!! Where have you been, what have you been doing? Come, this is the place to tell it all!"}, {"response": 122, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (17:18)", "body": "well, i'm moved in to my new house. a new room. same old me. same old problems. ahha...big laughs all round. i wrote to louise last week some time - did I tell you that? today i got the reply; i received it this morning, but i didn't think i could face reading it, as i had loads to do, so i just put it away. this evening, i braced myself for opening it and what was the point? none :) it was a one page thing, with very little about what i said or anything. but what the hell was i expecting? no idea. i guess i'm just upset, and grasping for any straws that are there. i am scared. so, so scared. tears. i can feel stears. i'm now typing this with my eyes shut. prayer and typing. can't say i've ever tried that before. please excuse any mistakes -0 i'm not looking. i feel like a broken, small, tiny child. oh God, take this away. please take it away. make it go. mercy."}, {"response": 123, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (19:02)", "body": "hey mike, *hug*, what's happened? what did louise say? NOMB, I know, but.... stacey: lol!!!"}, {"response": 124, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (19:29)", "body": "a friend told me to let God break me, and you all told me to let God catch me. i'm doing both. it might be working. tears are good."}, {"response": 125, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (19:33)", "body": "Don't be scared, Mike. Keep your expectations lowered and you'll be pleasantly surprised."}, {"response": 126, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (23:17)", "body": "God never closes a door without opening a window (i know, a cliche) but it's true, you just gotta move some curtains to find it. God will break you but He will also put you back together. Have you ever heard of a test of faith? And you know the story about the footprints in the sand, right? Don't think He has forgotten you....and yes, tears are good no matter what anybody says!"}, {"response": 127, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "Open your eyes, Mike. No, not your eyes, but the eyes that SEE. Forget Louise, forget Helen, forget ALL of them. Or don't forget, just let them go - try it for a little while at least. Revived relationships never work anyway - what they did to you once, they will do to you again, and if you were the one doing it to them you will do it again once the novelty wears off; desperation lies in the desire of something that you can't have. That doesn't mean that something is real - it just looks SO GOOD bec use you can't have it. Open your eyes, KEEP them open, look for something new, something fresh. When you find it (her) it will be so so much better. A whole new kiss, a whole new embrace, a whole new mind and body to explore, to grow with - not some old, stretched and half broken strings picked up from a bad ending in the past. You will be new to her and she to you, and that, I think, is the best start, and the best chance a relationship can have. All the problems you've had with the others, and whic made you split up, will just occur all over again, and put you through a hell that you've been through once before already. Why waste precious time like that?"}, {"response": 128, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (10:04)", "body": "very good advice. i (heart) riette!"}, {"response": 129, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (11:22)", "body": "Think I'm blushing, because that's a defenite first for me! Thank you, Ray. How is your fiancee? Have you got the annulment yet?"}, {"response": 130, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (12:07)", "body": "my sweetie and i are doing quite well. we are just financially strapped right now. she is a college professor and decided not to teach this summer due to burnout, and so we are minus her salary for 3 months. it's been ok so far, but the pinch is really starting to get more apparent. thank God for prozac!!!!!!!"}, {"response": 131, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (12:52)", "body": "You poor things! I don't know why it has to be bits of paper that makes life so difficult, you know?! It's just so perverse somehow, isn't it? You work your butt off to get x amount of little papers so you can live, and when you're too burnt out to work, you burn yourself out worrying about the little papers!! I seriously think that money is about one of the worst inventions ever!"}, {"response": 132, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (12:53)", "body": "Oh, and I've just noticed that you hit a round number with your response, so that's the lucky thing about your situation. Hope it brings you good luck."}, {"response": 133, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (14:45)", "body": "oh i thnk it will! i am an eternal, diehard optimist and i know that all will be well!"}, {"response": 134, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (17:35)", "body": "and it will! oh, ratthing, while you're out visiting your topics, you think maybe we oughta, like, put the couch on the back burner and open a new couch topic? (i mean it's only got 6 hundred something responses) that may be a lot for someone new to have to sift through....."}, {"response": 135, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Jul  7, 1998 (18:45)", "body": "oh, yeah! hosts have to do things like that, don't they??? good idea wolfie, consider it done."}, {"response": 136, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (14:59)", "body": "i guess it's time for an update on what's happening. i've just read through the last seven days of postings here, which starts, incidentally at 53. That's 82 postings in seven days, an average of (blurble, whirr) 11.7 or so per day, I think. i'm not sure how many people realised, but the first time I've been able to feel any emotion was just the other day. right when i was posting, which was a bonus for the drama-stats ;) no, it's easy to be flippant, but not right. reading through all of the postings, i feel completely light headed. all of you have shared a massive part of me, and have been here, right with me, right while it's happening. that's never happened to me before. to have people sharing in the creations of my brain is a total first. i am starting to feel better, which i'm sure you'll all be happy to know. i off-loaded a whole lot of stuff on Monday night. it was quite something. but i still have a way to go. i'm worried that i've just buried some stuff under the carpet again, like has happened in the past. but i'm trying not to let that be the case. i'm confronting a lot of the things that upset me; when a thought comes to me that could be upsetting, i sit down and take it apart, or just let it sit there and throb for a while. i'm not hiding from things any more, and i'm feeling healthier for it. but i'm not cured, i don't think. whether i ever will be is an interesting question. i will keep posting here, whether things are going good or going bad; i owe so much to this particular text input box that it would be terrible for me to desert it now. thank you all for what you have done, and for what i hope you will help to do."}, {"response": 137, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (15:13)", "body": "Really glad to hear you're feeling a bit better. Thank you for trusting us enough to share your problems. It let's us know that we can share ours with you too when and if it happens. You are a very, very nice person."}, {"response": 138, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (15:14)", "body": "that's really cool, mike... (and your brain is a pretty interesting place... what you wrote affected me- everyone that read it, i'm sure- a great deal... and it was an honor, you know?)"}, {"response": 139, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (15:19)", "body": "mike: *hug* ratthing: thanks!"}, {"response": 140, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (21:02)", "body": "thanks nick, but you're a little off the mark ;) my brain is a fucked-up place :))"}, {"response": 141, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (23:02)", "body": "Everybody's is at some time or another, heck, just look at wer (kidding! I am kidding!) Nothing changes overnight but the process will take place and you'll put some of these dark moments behind you. moving to a new place is a good way to start."}, {"response": 142, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (00:33)", "body": "LOL!!!"}, {"response": 143, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (01:10)", "body": "Hey, Mikey, here's a face for you to make when you're feeling down or angry . . . >: ( Like the frown?"}, {"response": 144, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (10:43)", "body": "i do....."}, {"response": 145, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (10:44)", "body": "i know there's something floating out there with all the little character faces, anybody else seen it?"}, {"response": 146, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (12:50)", "body": "No, but if you see one with a BIG BIG frown, put it here, then everyone will know exactly what I look like after today. I have just had the most incredibly unlucky day today. One disaster after the other. First I somehow managed to break my e-mail. Fine. Then my best friend went on holiday for three weeks, and I'm going to miss her like hell. Fine too. Then I go shopping. As I walk into my kitchen to pack the groceries away, the Coke bottle drops out of my clumsy hands, and explodes all over the place. I wash the entire damned kitchen, but EVERYTHING, just everything is still sticky. So I don't know what to do. Then I decide to make cold tomato and cucumber soup for dinner, because it's so easy to make, nothing can go wrong there, right? Wrong. Here I am, 19:40 in the evening, a ghastly trip to hospital with two very upset kids later, and a right forefinger more or less savaged in the vegetable cutter. It throbs, I feel bloody (ha-ha! at that bit of irony) sorry for myself, and I can't cry, because I don't want Chris to think me a baby. I'm such a moron. BLEEEEUUUUGH! \ufffdsticking tongue out at myself while mimicking vomiting noises\ufffd"}, {"response": 147, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:16)", "body": "ouch. Perhaps peanut bitter and jelly for dinner (prepared with dull butter knives of course) tonight!"}, {"response": 148, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:16)", "body": "butter... that was supposed to read butter... not bitter. oops."}, {"response": 149, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:32)", "body": "DAMN! Thought you were talking about a new kind of beer! Peanut beer . . . imagine!!! yum-yum! oh, And ha-ha! Nothing like a bit of dry humor to cheer one up!"}, {"response": 150, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:41)", "body": "peanut beer... interesting there is surely a market for it in the states... if it doesn't exist already. perhaps a substitute to the old baseball faves roasted peanuts and a cheap beer you could just brew the peanut flavor right in and charge 4x the price."}, {"response": 151, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:44)", "body": "Let's patent it - we could ask our very own chef to help us! How is school?"}, {"response": 152, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:55)", "body": "school is great! I took the kids on a scavanger hunt today... Find something green, something white, something pointy, something soft, something pretty, something wet, something alive (and so on) you cannot imagine how many poor insects were roused from their happy homes today! Tomorrow we are taking a trip to the firestation!"}, {"response": 153, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (14:58)", "body": "sorry about your finger, riette. it sounds horrid :( your day stacey, sounded lovely :)"}, {"response": 154, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (15:57)", "body": "i'm sorry about your terrible day, riette. stacey: you teach in a year round school? (what happened to summer vacation?)"}, {"response": 155, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (16:05)", "body": "Man, what a rough day Riette! How's that finger coming along. Is it functioning ok?"}, {"response": 156, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (16:12)", "body": "guess she's not having the probs mike was, she must be pretty good at hunt and peck cuz she's not saying a thing about it! *kisses* for the booboo, riette, no, not because it's bloody, us canines have healing tongues, don't you know!"}, {"response": 157, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (16:34)", "body": "You're a shell user now, wolfie."}, {"response": 158, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (16:55)", "body": "GET AWAY FROM MY FINGER, it's been through enough, and no, not functioning at all, and too painful to paint, and so I'm feeling a little cranky. \ufffdgrowl\ufffd No, thanks guys for the concern - apart from the finger I'm just fine. Going to the merry-go-around again tomorrow, so I'll just wash this day right outta my hair. Takes alot more than that to get me depressed! Stacey, glad you had such a lovely day. You have a great job."}, {"response": 159, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (18:08)", "body": "I'm teaching Extended School Year (ESY) a six-week summer special education program. My summer vacation will begin (and end) in August!"}, {"response": 160, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (21:58)", "body": "stacey: yes, but it's rewarding, i'll bet. terry: i don't understand the shell reference (got your email btw) riette: ok, i'll leave it alone (which one did you hurt?)"}, {"response": 161, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (22:31)", "body": "Riette, sorry to hear about the finger. Did you clean up that Coke yet? Had dinner last night at a microbrewery, featuring--you guessed it--a nut brewed ale called \"Geronimo\" for some arcane reason."}, {"response": 162, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (22:56)", "body": "was Geronimo a nutcase, perhaps? you had dinner at a brewery? what'd you eat? peanuts?"}, {"response": 163, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (23:05)", "body": "possibly closer to a brew pub..."}, {"response": 164, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (23:05)", "body": "Beer cheese soup (fabulous) and a powerhouse sandwich. I don't even know for a fact that they use peanuts to make the beer; perhaps they use hazelnuts, or cashews, even! I associate nuts with George Washington Carver, not Geronimo. But then again, maybe I'm nuts!"}, {"response": 165, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (00:49)", "body": "Wow! Wee! Pssshh! No, you're not very nuts, Autumn. \ufffdsmile\ufffd"}, {"response": 166, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (20:13)", "body": "i'm in more pieces than i thought imaginable. i feel worthless. unable to go on. i'm a failure. in everybody and anybody's eyes. i'm nothing. might as well surrender my cubic metre or so. i'm a broken, broken man. human. thing. i think that whatever it is that wants to break me has finally done so. i can't go any further. give any more. that's all i'm capable of. there's only so many times i can pick my self off the floor and dust myself down. i've just got no more inside of me. and i dont' even care. it's almost relief. relief together with the terrible knowledge of what i must do. i am just not capable of going on. i can't. i'm busted. busted, broken, trashed, smashed, eve ything. there's nothing to describe it. nothing to describe the way i feel inside. the weird feeling i've got in my legs. i'm so sad. so sad for how i will hurt people with relieving myself of this pain. i just don't see a way out from here. or any other way out. i haven't got it inside of me to even pull myself back up one last time. i haven't. i can't. i'm sorry"}, {"response": 167, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (21:36)", "body": "i wish one of you were here now. just here, logged on would do. in my room, even better. there are tears. i'm in pain. lots of pain. it hurts so much. i don't know what hurts, but it does. i don't know how to make you understand how un-melodramatic this is for me. i wish i was making it up. how i wish i was. how can i get out of this? out of myself? i'm so scared, so afraid. not of being mad any more, but of just being here. i can't cope. i'm way beyond that pont, i think. i'm out on the edge, crazy as a crazy person. i'm going round the twist, in public. it hurts so mch"}, {"response": 168, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:04)", "body": "what do you mean by re: so sad for how i will hurt people with relieving myself of this pain. ?"}, {"response": 169, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:13)", "body": "every car that came past me on the way home this evening, i had to force myself not to just step in front of it, because of how much i would screw up other people. so many times i've had to grab myself, and *not* just wade out into the sea from the beach. i would so like to be free of myself."}, {"response": 170, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:15)", "body": "i'm sorry. i don't feel like i should be sharing this even here. somehow i attach responsibility for myself on to all of you, which is wrong. i wish i knew what was going on in my head."}, {"response": 171, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:27)", "body": "you feel lost. i've been there. you have a will to live, that's why you didn't step out in front of the traffic. what is it that you want? i mean, what would it resolve? you don't know the value of your own life. God didn't give it to you so you could take it away. It's his gift. anyway, am not gonna preach. just talk to us. don't ever stop talking. i used to think that i wanted to be gone too. but figured out that dead wasn't what it was that i wanted. and because i couldn't handle the thoughts, i broke out in panic attacks a lot. i never want to feel that way again. all i knew was that i wanted things different and that everything scared me. i had to learn that it wasn't my responsibility for how other people feel. you see, i grew up in a house that wasn't happy on the inside (isn't that the 90's thing, you know). but it truly wasn't. so i became codependent to my parents. i took on control of their feelings (or so i had thought to myself) so if i took the blame for everything, it would be ok. hell, i would think that the police sirens down the street were coming for me (wild thoughts, i admit, but it did flash before me). and then, with a lot of time and a lot of support-not from my husband, i figured out that i am a human being who has needs. and i learned something called the ABC module. i know it sounds so corny, but it works for me. it goes something like this. A: the situation B: the awfulizing-what do you think might happen? C: what is more realistic? and is that so terrible for example: A: i broke up with my girlfriend B: oh my god, i'm gonna be killed C: probably not go out with anyone for awhile."}, {"response": 172, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:40)", "body": "A: I feel like my mother deserted me when i was younger, and have had problems relating to anyone since then. i have projected mother-substitutes onto all of the women i've ever *met*, let alone gone out with, which has ruined every relationship i've ever had, and left me with a huge gaping hole in my life, not to mention a massive perfectionist streak which eats up everything i do with guilt and self-deprecation. B: I could go fucking mad C: i could go out of my tree"}, {"response": 173, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:54)", "body": "so is she responsible for you now? or are you responsible for your own happiness? i ask this, because my mother was cold as ice and my father, well, that's for another time. my mother, after revealing some terrible thing,"}, {"response": 174, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:55)", "body": "A: mom was not emotionally available. B: i can never relate to anyone ever again C: i can learn how to make myself happy"}, {"response": 175, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:57)", "body": "mine a: mom was not emotionally available b: i will be just like her and that is that c: i can learn from that and try not to make the same mistakes i chose c, because i knew what i didn't want to be, so now my children get lots of hugs and kisses and are told everyday that i love them no matter how rotten they're being or how rotten i'm being."}, {"response": 176, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (23:08)", "body": "it's not about me being responsible for making myself happy. i've been trying that for however many years now. what is happening to me now is the result of years and years of trying to make myself happy by locking away the stuff that has happened in the past. except it's just not working any more. it leaks out in bigger and bigger quantities all the time."}, {"response": 177, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (23:16)", "body": "ok, monster in the closet. he's not so scary, you know. i did that too. stuffed all the bad stuff in a closet and kept my front. but pretty soon it did start leaking out. so i let the whole thing come out and you know what? it was only 1 inch tall so i squished it. yeah, there are side effects, people aren't gonna be happy, especially if the monster has something to do with them. we have a way of making things seem worse. like the monster. we think, when that thing gets out, it's gonna eat New York, but when you step back and look at it, well, it's a little lizard. work with me, i know what i'm trying to say. it's like the things you're scared of, you make them bigger in your mind, but when you face them, they're really not so bad. you'll feel so much better when you unlock the closet door. no, not right away. give yourself time and plenty of room. don't worry about the \"supposed to's\". who's normal? we all have our own way of dealing with things. i let my monster out and my parents are now off of the pedestal and are human. have i forgiven them, yes, have they forgiven me, hmm, i dunno....but forgiveness is for the forgiver. oh, and if you're not happy yet, it's because you think your making yourself happy. it's not gonna be bliss right away, and you will slide back, but that's ok. tell me, what does your monster look like? why do you feel deserted?"}, {"response": 178, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (23:48)", "body": "i feel deserted because i was deserted. my mother and father split when i was 2 years old. then she got together with a man who hated me and my brother and sister, and forced the two of them out of the house in due course. 7 years of psychological torture, basically. seven years of being hated beyond what i thought anyone was capable of. and hated by a cold, calculating, brutal person, not some raving nutter with an axe, but someone with a real knowledge of how to make a person feel perfectly shitty bout themselves. and this person is the one my mother married, and supported, and turned a blind eye to, even when he started to force my sister out of home, just as he'd done successfully with my brother. then he goes to prison. my mother and i fight like crazy. i go through probably the best and worse five months of my life. he is not around, which is glorious relief, but she constantly yearns for hiim, and i live with the knowledge that he will be back. he comes back. nothing is different. we move to a tiny (and i mean tiny) village in lincolnshire. back of beyond. all the people have eight toes and three legs because of the inter-breeding - literally. we buy a public house. my mother slips straight back into her alcoholic tendencies whic she has had for years. i'm used to this by now, it's no big deal. and the nightly rows. the crying. the slamming of doors. all of this is present and accounted for, all above board and ship-shape. ay captain then in notice that neither of them are sleeping in their bed at night. i just presume that they're both pissed up and fighting downstairs, even when it's silent. this goes on for some weeks, some months...can't remember how long. long enough to start scaring me. then i find out. she's having an affair and has been leaving the house every night for the last x weeks/months. leaving me there, with him, alone. cheers. by the age of eleven, i am ordering my own shopping, making my own dinner and worrying about how i'm going to get the stuff for my cooking project at school. all things that i presumed that mums should take care of. all things that my friends mothers all took care of. the way my mother would never, ever, stick up for me. if something happened, and someone complained about me, then i fucking got it, i really did. didn't matter if i was guilty or not, she fucking gave it to me. from years and years ago, i remember her smacking me in the head. i can't remember why, or what about or anything, just the site of her smacking me in the head. cheers again. not that i was physically abused. that just came to mind, and i'm streaming here. and so we move out of the pub, and into the house of her new bloke. who is actually a good man. life gradually improves, but by this time i think it's all well in motion anyway. i am scarred. i wet the bed constantly until i'm about 14 or 15. i have nightmares. i have attitude problems and relationship \"difficulties?\". do you remember me saying about the dream i died in? it was the first step-father who shot me. unbelievable that was. i think that stream is over."}, {"response": 179, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (00:14)", "body": "i understand the problems you were having. i mean, i understand why. what did your mother do? (with the stress-related stuff in your new home) i had a dream last night that my father was out to kill me. i was left with a house with all sorts of things in it and i told him it was mine. my mother was on my side (concerning the exploitation of me) and was trying to help me get to a lawyer so i could finally have the man arrested. time was short. i woke up before it was resolved. it has been awhile since i had nightmares about my parents. but usually both of them were out to get me. think looking through some old photo albums and seeing his eyes is what did it. they're still married. she still believes him and not her daughter (she's in denial, and who wouldn't be)."}, {"response": 180, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (00:22)", "body": "listen, mike, you hang in there. i'm so sleepy, can't keep my eyeballs open anymore (and the toothpicks keep falling out). listen, i'm here, even if you just blab, send a post or something. but only if you feel safe (do you know what i mean?) *big wolfie hug* and a *kiss* on your forehead (no teeth or slobber!)"}, {"response": 181, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (01:16)", "body": "Mike, Wolf, the things I have read here this morning has made me angry once more. Our parents, they fuck us up, that's the truth of it. Mike, if you should kill yourself, they will have won. Never, never, never let that happen. You feel worthless - they have conditioned you to do so. You feel broken - they have tried to break you, because your goodness made them feel like the trash they are. You feel sad - they want you to feel that, because it means that you are still dependent on them, however perverse and crazy that may sound to the rational ear. You feel haunted - they will do that for as long as you are broken, because they want to pull you down into their pathetic abyss, and say, look, he is no better than us, he is a tosser too, IQ of 147 or not. You feel you can't go on - they would love for you not to go on, for they cannot bear to see how you are fighting for your soul. You feel you are a failure - they want you to fail, nothing would please them more. I could go on, but if I did, I'd never stop again. Mike, I cannot tell you how to make it better - we all have to do it our own way, what worked for me might make you even more miserable. But I do want to tell you that you musn't be ashamed. You are not guilty. They are. You MUST be selfish. You MUST perservere. And whatever you do, DON'T let them know how they have made you feel, NEVER. Don't give them that satisfaction. Fight them and break them as they have tried to break you. Hate them as much as you want - they deserve it. The crappiest thing about parents is that they think they have some autonomous sort of RIGHT, some claim on their children. That is why they don't care if they screw up. How can one care about something you take for granted anyway? They think their children 'owe' them something for putting them into this sick and miserable world - pathetic, isn't it? But I tell you Mike, you do not belong TO them as my children do not belong to me. Our children are people who are lent to us for a few years by God. Whether they will ever truly belong to us, depends entirely upon how we treat them, whether we make them feel they WANT to belong with us or not. They too have a choice in the matter, and YOU have a choice right now. Your parents did not 'adopt' you like that, they never appreciated the gift of children, they don't deserve your loyalty or your love or your guilt or anything at all. Don't you forget that, and don't let THEM forget that."}, {"response": 182, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (14:32)", "body": "right on, riette. (children are gifts, too bad some people don't take care of the most precious ones they have) mike, i don't hate my parents, what would that accomplish? does it hurt them? no, but it sure hurts me. so what's the point in that? your parents may have left you wanting, but look what's happened now. God gave you all of us, and we're all in your corner. *hug* be the person that you are and the rest will fall into place!"}, {"response": 183, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:09)", "body": "i certainly don't hate either of my parents for the way i've turned out. i don't even \"blame\" them, since there is no blame to be apportioned. They are responsible, either wholly or partly, but they are not to blame. but i need to sort this thing out. these things out. i'm messed up, and not likely to get better without some real sorting. it's weird how nervous i get every time i click on this topic, now that i've told you all what it's really about. nobody knows except all of you."}, {"response": 184, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:14)", "body": "then you should feel at home. we're not here to judge you or lay our opinions on you. we just want to help you sort through the stuff. yes, i believe we are a' product of our environments. but we CAN change the way we are now. so sort away (and i'm glad that you are able to recognize that, i mean, to admit to it)"}, {"response": 185, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:16)", "body": "i think i would like to move this to a private conference. i'm not too happy with all and sundry checking in on my life. i'll sort it out with terry."}, {"response": 186, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:43)", "body": "Would we still be able to talk there? Because I would miss you."}, {"response": 187, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:52)", "body": "oh yeah. all of the people here would be invited. it's just to keep things a bit more private between us. i think i would be happier that way."}, {"response": 188, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:56)", "body": "I understand. And I'm glad we'd still be allowed there."}, {"response": 189, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:58)", "body": "Ugh, since Chris has stopped talking to me, my English is getting worse by the day. Wish he'd get over his birthday now. \ufffdSIGH\ufffd"}, {"response": 190, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (17:02)", "body": "take him go-karting :) give him to me to talk to - i'm feeling old :)"}, {"response": 191, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (17:05)", "body": "Can't take him go-karting. He IS old! It sometimes scares me."}, {"response": 192, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (17:15)", "body": "take him go karting. how old is he?"}, {"response": 193, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (17:16)", "body": "50"}, {"response": 194, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (17:21)", "body": "definitely take him then :)"}, {"response": 195, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (17:32)", "body": "Took him to the merry-go-around yesterday - he hated it. So I went on my own in the evening, stiff arm and finger and all, and then he was very angry with me for staying out too late and walking back home instead of taking a taxi. When he is in this black, sullen mood I am unable to do anything right. Yet tonight he came into the bathroom, scrubbed my back, dried my hair and made love to me without a word - still, I understood. The mood is wearing off, and he is sorry for being angry. He is a strange creature - I love him."}, {"response": 196, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (17:49)", "body": "i could do with a bit of that TLC stuff :)"}, {"response": 197, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (18:00)", "body": "I know, Mike. I find it a shame that we are all such good friends here, yet we can't hug a person when they need it. It makes all the difference in the world to me."}, {"response": 198, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (18:02)", "body": "yes, but we can virtually hug so here ya go *big bear hug* oops! make that *big wolf hug* never mind my teeth, sweetie!"}, {"response": 199, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (18:08)", "body": "Hey, we're coming up to 200 here! Damn, just missing it - oh well, make a wish, whoever hits it! Don't wolves sort of bite to show affection? Or is that sharks?"}, {"response": 200, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (19:48)", "body": "sharks, IF they're capable. wolves lay around on each other and stuff. the teeth stuff is left for the really serious business of putting something straight!"}, {"response": 201, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul 12, 1998 (01:29)", "body": "OH! Won't mess with you then . . ."}, {"response": 202, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Jul 12, 1998 (06:25)", "body": "Mike... hope the new day brings greater perspective."}, {"response": 203, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Jul 12, 1998 (20:11)", "body": "i'm back again. trying to sleep before i was really tired was a bad move. leaving myself alone with my brain is a dangerous move at the moment. i'm gonna go back a few steps and talk about what's on my mind at the moment, rather than the whole situation itself. i have this problem, yes, with females. women. girls. i'm not a good prospect for hosting the Babes conference, I don't think :) I am hopelessly attracted to them; no problem there. unfortunately, when i get involved with anyone, i'm doomed to screw it up through my own ineptitude, and then to beat myself up over it for like...*ages* afterwards. months and months. years. other peop e don't generally get like this. hell, the other halves of the various relationships damn well don't, whether they ended it or I did. i guess this is all tied up in the bigger picture, and unless I get that sorted out I'm...screwed? not screwed? :) as you can tell, i'm in a better state of mind than friday, but not by much. i'm lonely here. i'm left alone with my mind, and nowhere to go. it's not nice when the most fundamental part of you is playing nasty tricks, and dragging up stuff that should be long forgotten."}, {"response": 204, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Jul 12, 1998 (20:30)", "body": "not to minimize your problem, but, shoot, even us gals have probs with our own selves! so why do you think you screw up? can't always be you, the odds of that are pretty much nil. remember, it takes two for a relationship. sounds to me like you were there but they weren't. maybe the problem lies in what you want and what they want."}, {"response": 205, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Jul 12, 1998 (20:39)", "body": "yeah. i'm not even sure if this is a problem; rather i think it's a symptom of my state of mind at the moment. but i'm fairly sure i shouldn't still pine after a particular person/relationship after more than three years. particularly when the relationship itself lasted only two months."}, {"response": 206, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Jul 12, 1998 (20:52)", "body": "you still have feelings and yearnings. nothing wrong with that. everyone takes their own time to sort through things. you're doing that \"supposed to\" thing. i wonder about people i used to know. i still pine after my best friend, JC. i miss him terribly (tho we were never lovers), but i can still feel him hugging me...."}, {"response": 207, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "I still sometimes miss the last guy I didn't have a proper relationship with before I met Chris; It was a friendship in which we did it once sort of accidently, though we both knew our goals in life were too different for it to work. It was wonderful, and we are still very good friends - saw him only four weeks ago (he is a black Namibian artist, a wonderful artist) - so it isn't as if there was ever even a break, and he and Chris are very good friends too. But I do sometimes wonder what it would have been like had I stayed with him, what kind of a life we might be leading now if we did stay together, because those were crazy, and very happy days with him. I also know that if I had stayed with him, and met Chris in the meantime, I would be wondering about what it would've been like with Chris. Human nature thing, I think."}, {"response": 208, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (19:45)", "body": "i'm wondering what it might be like to be with anyone, I think ;-)"}, {"response": 209, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (19:59)", "body": "with just anyone? i used to wonder what it would be like with someone else... but then i look at mr wolf and see how good he is to me (aside from his annoying faults-but we all have them) and i probably wouldn't be as lucky!"}, {"response": 210, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (20:25)", "body": "well, anyone within vague reason, I guess. The thing with me, which I realised today, is that I totally discard (that's an awful word, actually) people who don't come up to scratch in every, or nearly every, department (hehe...this sounds so cynical :) then, when i find somebody who does, I go totally overboard, because there aren't that many of them. why don't i listen to my friends? I've already been told that I'm too picky when it comes to women, but I just ignored them :) Oh well. They've just gotta be special to even get looked at ;) However, I went into town today, and was feeling particularly beautiful. Feels good to feel beautiful :))"}, {"response": 211, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (20:38)", "body": "yes it does. funny how you know when you're \"on\"! nothing wrong with being picky, at least you know you won't settle! and you shouldn't. look for what you want and when it's right, it'll be really right!"}, {"response": 212, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (20:39)", "body": "(and i must say that for as ugly as i am, i too, have those beautiful days and other people pick up on it and are drawn to you. it's funny, huh?)"}, {"response": 213, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (20:40)", "body": "(that sounded like i'm fishing for compliments-i'm not, let me assure you)"}, {"response": 214, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (20:57)", "body": "wolf, you're not ugly. i can promise you that. i realised something today, and then remembered that someone else had already coined it - \"beauty is more than skin deep\" :) when i realised it today, it seemed so profound, so true. and i think that's because it is. it doesn't matter to me whether the people here have the standard one head, or three heads, because it's more than faces here. it's who we are, stripped of the prejudices of race/face/colour/age. it's words. thoughts. us."}, {"response": 215, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Jul 13, 1998 (21:49)", "body": "this is true, that's why i love talking to people here because you have to pay attention to learn who they are. i wonder if posting our faces will change that. (and yes, true beauty is beyond skin and is ageless)..on the other hand, some people lie about who they are because of the anoniminity (boy, i hope that's spelled right!) and you're too kind *blush*"}, {"response": 216, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Jul 14, 1998 (13:11)", "body": "anonymity i think it is :) would posting our faces make it different? i think that our little group - you, stacey, autumn, riette, terry, nick, wer and me know each other well, and feel \"close\" enough to make faces merely interesting, rather than methods of judgment. that's just my feeling."}, {"response": 217, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul 14, 1998 (14:29)", "body": "I hope it won't make it different, but so far I don't feel any different knowing what you and Terry look like - it's just nice to have a picture to go with the idea of the people I talk to here. But if it should turn into a beauty contest, I'm out of here, because physical appearance is about the last thing I judge people by. My father is a very attractive man . . ."}, {"response": 218, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul 15, 1998 (10:53)", "body": "Well it ain't not beauty contest."}, {"response": 219, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul 15, 1998 (14:16)", "body": "Good! So how have you been these past few days, Mike? I am well - doctor's decided my plaster can come off tomorrow - yahoo!!"}, {"response": 220, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul 15, 1998 (19:18)", "body": "that's great news, riette. how's the finger? as for me, i'm inspired. i bought a new book (one of four, none of which i could afford) last week: the biography of Richard Branson. Basically he got to where he is today by simply being the world's most confident man, and not accepting that there were things that were \"impossible\". I'm drawing off of this a little bit. there doesn't seem to be much point in sitting around and worrying about what happens if something goes wrong somewhere. just pick myself, dust myself down etc. i think the fear of ailure comes from thinking about things too much. perhaps my fear of the telephone comes from sitting down and thinking \"right, i've got to speak to someone who i've never met before, now\", when really I should just pick up the phone and dial. i am simply feeling much, much better. how long it will last, i don't know. i want this state of mind to become the status quo, because it's the most sensible state i've been in forever. it simply doesn't matter if the next woman i chat up completely blows me out (english expression...ummm \"rejects\" :). that doesn't matter, does it? it really doesn't. the only thing that matters is that i definitely lose if i don't chat her up! :) i'm sure you will all appreciate how much better i'm feeling =)) the other three books that i bought have helped in other ways, too. one of them pointed out to me that my relationship with Louise wasn't that great after all. the book was all about some guy who was feeling like he was stuck in a rut with his girlfriend, and that he was going to be stuck with someone he wasn't completely sure about for the rest of his life. and that struck a chord. that's where i was. it may have been nice, but it was not as wonderful as i have recently been creating in my head. i have the feeling that the world is rather at my feet. the only thing that holds me back from it is my own fear, which is based on...well, nothing really. i'm getting out there, and doing the business :)"}, {"response": 221, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul 15, 1998 (20:48)", "body": "that's all very positive, now let's see ya do it! (learn to laugh at yourself) now when i pick up the phone and get my tongue crossed, the person on the other end and i both have ourselves a good laugh! (in fact it happened just today!)"}, {"response": 222, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul 16, 1998 (00:57)", "body": "Mike, I'm so glad you're feeling so much better. And you SOUND so good too. I admire the way you admit to, face, and fight the things that make life difficult for you. Oh, the finger is thick and painful, but I'm over the moon over the prospect of getting rid of this stupid white thing."}, {"response": 223, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jul 17, 1998 (21:47)", "body": "Mike, I'm just coming in on the tail end of your angst-ridden week and am glad to hear your spirits have lifted a bit. I don't know if this would interest you or not, but there is an herb, St. John's Wort, which is a sort of organic anti-depressant. It won't make you forget your problems, but it may help brighten your outlook and help you feel the \"up\" way you're feeling now. I've heard so many positive things from my friends (several take it) that I feel comfortable suggesting that you check it out. ake care of yourself."}, {"response": 224, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (00:45)", "body": "I've heard of that! It's slang name is 'Ecstacy', Mike! (no, just kidding!)"}, {"response": 225, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (04:09)", "body": "Thanks, Autumn, I'll try and find out about it :) WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!! Guess what just happened??! Riette phoned me :)) There I am, bleary-eyed having been awake about ten minutes, and all of a sudden I hear this voice on the phone that I've never heard before, that asks for me. And then the voice turns out to be Riette! WOOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!! The first Spring person I've spoken to anywhere but here or e-mail :-) It was fun, even if the telephone is still the most artificial form of conversation. But it was exciting, and the chocolate-swap is organised :-)))"}, {"response": 226, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (07:24)", "body": "ha-ha!!! Did it frighten you?"}, {"response": 227, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (08:09)", "body": "noooo, of course not :)"}, {"response": 228, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (12:29)", "body": "Good. Today I finished my still life. I hate finishing a painting, because I grow attached to working on some things. How silly."}, {"response": 229, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (12:31)", "body": "nothing silly about that. i feel like that about books. very much like that, in fact. perhaps that's why I read them over and over. which in turn is probably why i have so few books :)"}, {"response": 230, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (12:37)", "body": "Ha-ha!!! Yes, I do that too. I have 5 books piled up on my beside table, and every night I just choose one, and read a few pages from it. Some people call that narrow minded, but why plough through 300 pages of crap when you can just read something that you know is good?!"}, {"response": 231, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (12:40)", "body": "lol :))"}, {"response": 232, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jul 19, 1998 (12:11)", "body": "The telephone is the most artificial form of conversation?? I think a phone call from Riette would be anything but artificial! I will sit by mine and wait for it to ring... Riette, beginnings and endings are emotional, aren't they. What is your bedside reading? So what's up with the chocolate swap?"}, {"response": 233, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul 19, 1998 (15:13)", "body": "WELL, the chocolate swap has indeed been arranged, and will take place as soon as I can track down 100g of champaigne truffles this time of year in Z\ufffdrich. And the bedside books are: Jane Eyre Wuthering Heights The name of the Rose The picture of Dorian Gray Volume of 4 stories (including Indecent Exposure) by Tom Sharpe Love Hate Suspense Horror Comedy all right beside me!"}, {"response": 234, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Jul 19, 1998 (15:44)", "body": "It's back again. I'm back again. I thought this was over. It isn't. : PJ reckons your ex is even more top class now, Mike : yeah? cool. i don't even have a reason for feeling like this at the moment. what the hell do i feel like? i don't know. like something has been taken away from me. or out of me, somehow. like i'm not everything i could/should be. dissatisfied with myself. afraid. as usual. i am planning on sending a letter, or rather, delivering by hand a letter cos i've lost the address, to a very old, much-idolised girlfriend. who is \"even more top class now, Mike\". is that a good idea? i'm not sure if it is or isn't. i suppose one could argue that it would \"only be dragging up the past\" or something like that. but how much more can the past be dragged up? not much, i promise. maybe somehow i will be able to lay a few things to rest, finally, if i do get in touch with her. i think perhaps part of what i'm feeling now is fear of going back. it's a best-mate's 21st birthday next weekend, and i've been invited up for the beach party. going back. that's what i'm afraid of. the whole place is full of memories of pain and very little else. even the good memories are pricked with bad ones. the last time i went back, just before christmas, was terrible. all of my worst ever experiences locked up in one small room. a legacy from where i used to be. my room at home is almost xactly the same as when i left it, two years ago. it's like going back and discovering a past life. pieces of paper that are five years old, with all of the memories that that entails. are depression and nostalgia the same thing? i really thought i was through this."}, {"response": 235, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Jul 20, 1998 (00:03)", "body": "\"are depression and nostalgia the same thing?\" only if you let them be...they aren't of and by themselves..."}, {"response": 236, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul 20, 1998 (16:42)", "body": "i'm on a bit more of an even keel today, which is good. i went up to London, and was surrounded by beautiful people all day (see the Babes conf for more :). and i looked beautiful too, which was good. i think i would like to live in London. it's such a massively vibrant place. 8 million people. that's more people than i can even conceive. each and every *single* one of them different, completely unique. I was a bit wowed today :) Imagine lining up those eight million people, 8 lines deep, a million people long. surely there would be more than one person who would find me attractive there? of course. that puts things back into perspective again :) today was a great day. i went to a recruitment agency, and scored 108 words per minute with a broken finger. The girl said \"I don't think i've ever met anyone who can type that fast before\" :-) They also pay \ufffd8.50 an hour, which is about (burble, tinkle...) US$13 or so an hour, I think, which is excellent for my line of work. I'd be happy with \ufffd5 ($7.50) an hour. I haven't got a definite job with them yet, but they seemed confident of getting me something. that would be lovely. a slightly toned-down version of Claudia Schiffer was on the underground today, and i nearly fell over myself. incredible. she must have been about six feet tall or so - definitely a couple of inches taller than me. blonde. willowy. i've decided that part of what heaven will be like is that everybody will be tall. or there will be a place where you can go where everybody is tall. and beautiful. and you'll become as beautiful as the beautiful people when you walk through the door, and then become yourself again, perfect and unique, when you leave. triffic."}, {"response": 237, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul 21, 1998 (05:11)", "body": "\ufffdsnort\ufffd"}, {"response": 238, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Jul 21, 1998 (06:38)", "body": "Here, have a hanky."}, {"response": 239, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul 21, 1998 (07:01)", "body": "Wasn't that kind of a snort."}, {"response": 240, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul 21, 1998 (07:01)", "body": "Or: Wasn't that kind of a sno(r)t!"}, {"response": 241, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (12:50)", "body": "I was a good girl today. I'm finally over that foolish 'blue' feeling that always comes over me after completing a painting, and I sat down, and designed the next. And this is going to be great fun. I've designed a huge African city, full of cars and people, and animals and buildings and hot air balloons. This design I am going to realize with bits of coloured tin (from soda cans), and plain tin for windows and reflections - an African painting in tin-mosa\ufffdk. It'll be hilarious, I'm sure! Also quite unexpectedly sold a painting today. Spending money for England, that is..."}, {"response": 242, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (13:19)", "body": "Great, what was the painting you sold like and who bought it? Not specifically who, just generally, what kind of person?"}, {"response": 243, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (16:04)", "body": "Well, the person is a doctor - she bought a painting of a night jungle at my last exhibition to hang in her practise. She phoned me to ask whether I still had the painting that belonged with it - a daylight jungle. Both are 3-D, and full of african motives and leering eyes, and checked or polka-dotted or paterned animals. And the night jungle has little fireflies. Anyway, I was going to sell the day jungle to a guy running a computer store, but he has in the meantime decided on another painting of AFr can masks, so I was able to do the deal with the doctor. Thank God - it is a skimpy life this. Can't say that it bothers me though. Makes you appreciate things more. We are in the philosophy conference, aren't we? Otherwise I'd apologize for boring you with philosophical talk."}, {"response": 244, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (16:28)", "body": "What's that famous painting of a jungle that you always see? With all the animals in a jungle setting?"}, {"response": 245, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (19:34)", "body": "No idea which one you mean, Terry. There are SO many jungle paintings around - especially in African art culture - that I can't think of one in particular. Have you any more precise ideas about it? You can always post a rough sketch in art."}, {"response": 246, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (23:15)", "body": "the mosaic sounds incredible, Riette..."}, {"response": 247, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (02:40)", "body": "Thanks, Wer. Let's hope I manage it without cutting another few fingers off - I'm so clumsy. And let's hope I'll find different colours of tins - in this country that is not something to be taken for granted."}, {"response": 248, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (05:48)", "body": "It was actually called \"The Jungle\". We studied it in art class in college. I think it was Rousseau."}, {"response": 249, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (21:19)", "body": "Congratulations, Riette!!!!"}, {"response": 250, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (00:04)", "body": "It was the Dream (discussed in art)."}, {"response": 251, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (01:11)", "body": "Yes, I do know it, and responded. How was your day, Terry?"}, {"response": 252, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (07:03)", "body": "So far, pretty good. Went for a swim and now off to ham radio operators breakfast and then over to buy some coax at the candy store. It's early and it's *Saturday*. Yay!"}, {"response": 253, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (07:22)", "body": "What is coax? Chocolate?"}, {"response": 254, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Jul 26, 1998 (08:14)", "body": "The candy store is our local ham radio outlet and coax is wire, specifically antenna wire. In this case RG8x which is currently attached to an 18' antenna setting on two lawn chairs in my backyard."}, {"response": 255, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul 26, 1998 (09:46)", "body": "And they all tan together in the sun?"}, {"response": 256, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Jul 26, 1998 (21:06)", "body": "No, they're in a shady spot. It's destined for a sunny rooftop though. As soon as I pick up a ladder and a 65' telescoping mast."}, {"response": 257, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jul 26, 1998 (21:11)", "body": "Does this guy know how to have summer fun or what?"}, {"response": 258, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul 27, 1998 (01:00)", "body": "I dread to think what his house must look like; probably a bit like Inspector Gadget's abode."}, {"response": 259, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Jul 27, 1998 (09:30)", "body": "Dread? Dread? Dread?"}, {"response": 260, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul 27, 1998 (11:16)", "body": "\ufffdBIG SMILE\ufffd I'm really annoying you today, aren't I???"}, {"response": 261, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Jul 27, 1998 (11:21)", "body": "You just haven't seen my digs. I'll have to videotape a tour for you, baby. So you can see it's not all that bad. Now the garage, different story..."}, {"response": 262, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul 27, 1998 (11:28)", "body": "Yes, convince me! Anyway, I might see for myself next year . . ."}, {"response": 263, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (09:19)", "body": "I'm back again, but only for a few hours. Back in Brighton. Back in Spring-world. Back home. I thought I might just go mad without all of you to write to and bleat at and stuff. so i have written, while I've been away, in my diary. Otherwise I might well have gone mad. I'm afraid that a lot of it will be less decipherable than usual (oh no!), but I tend not explain myself in my diary. but here they are."}, {"response": 264, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (09:28)", "body": "25 July 1998 Well, that's it. I'm on my way to King's Lynn. And I'm probably - hopefully? - going to deliver a letter to Sarah Davis. That is scary. I put a CV into the computer at work, yesterday, and it was from someone who went to the same school that Sarah did. That brought a lot of old memories back, nearly all - if not competely all - of them good. I'm a little afraid, but also excited. ithink perhaps I@m doing this for better reasons, now. Or I'm doing it for the same reasons as before, but without all of he other, negative reasons that I was attaching while I was...unwell?? That makes it sound as if I was mentally ill! Perhaps i was, in a very, very mild way. So it's with excitement, and not some small trepidation, that I head toward home. I have to decide what I'm going to write in this letter to her, preferably on this journey. I'm going to make it very light-hearted, perhaps mentioning the CV thing to her - just mention the coincidence, or something. I'm quite excited at the prospect, really. I don't have very much to lose, and perhaps have a friend to regain. If nothing else, perhaps it will bury some skeletons. It will be weird to be in Coningsby [where Sarah lives] again, really weird. I spent several months there with Emma, too. And also with Sarah, but probably only a few hours with her! Special hours, though. formative ones. But let's not get into that, because it's important to start laying the past to rest and concentrating on the future of everything! I'm glad I have a job, now. Not just from the financial point of view, but that it keeps me busy, and away from my mind. Too much time to think is bad for my mental health. Well, that's it. Wish me luck!"}, {"response": 265, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (09:38)", "body": "26 July 1998, 1:22 a.m. I am writing this on paper, in my diary, but it's as if your'e all here, at least in part. I will post this as soon as I get a chance! It will probably be a week from now. I am sat in my room, at my Mum's house, and with me I have a small collections of letters, cards and a photo. these are all from a girl called Sarah Davis, who I had a short fling with about three and a bit years ago. Part of the reason for me coming up here was for me to delvier a letter to her, to try and get back in touch. The last time I ever had any contact her was February 1995. It is difficult for me to describe what it's like to still feel something for her after all this time. All these months and years have turned it into some kind of dream - something that only ever happened in my head. But now here I am, with a photo, and paper covered in her handwriting. And it's not completely painful. It's almost mystical, magical even. This happened . This was, and is, PART OF ME. WOW!! How about a real-time feeling description: it's intense. My head is swimming, almost . I can feel something like tears in my eyes, but not tears of sadness or anger, nor even joy and happiness. Nor ruefulness. Just emotion I think. I think perhaps I don't know what to feel! It's incredible, it really is. I wish so much that you were all here. that we could get beyond the barriers of just words on the screen. YOu've watched me, in the last few weeks, come through a really traumatic time. Even though I don't yet know all of you as well as I would like to, I think that all of you who have been here now know me probably as well as anyone on the eart. Better, even. I think you've seen the real me, on more than one occassion. Stripped of bravado, or posturing, or intellect of any kind. I have sat here an cried whilst connected. YOu've watched me come, genuinely, to the point where I didn't think I could carry on. You know things that even my mother doesn't! And here I am now. I'm going to read the letters, which I haven't done yet. And I will perhaps write some of them in here. Heh. Talk about nervous. I@m truly scared. It's like having Pandora's Box in front of me! It's not 1:44 a.m. and I'm going to read one of the letters. Done. I have a smile. do you know what I feel now? I feel like I miss you all crazily. I think i'd like to pile on to the two couches in philosophy with you all, and just have you there. Here. whatever! How can words on a screen form real bonds? I'm amazed how \"amputated\" I feel away from you all. Heee...I can imagine you all playing without me! You'd better miss me...*grin* I think I am going to leave, now, and write this letter to Sarah, so that I can hopefully deliver it tomorrow. Bye for now..."}, {"response": 266, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (09:39)", "body": "above, \"not 1:44 a.m. = now 1:44 a.m.\" :-)"}, {"response": 267, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (09:50)", "body": "Monday 27 July, 1998. 1:30 p.m. Well, yesterday I did a crazy thing. I wrote a letter4 to Sarah Davis, and then hitched a lift from my friend Phil to go and deliver it. Mad. It was a nice letter - a good letter, I though; positive, up-beat, happy. NO mention of the past other than to establish who I was. I liked it. We drove to Coningsby, which was a trip down memory lane itself! We went past Emma's house, but didn't see her. NOt that I expected to, of course. then we got into the town centre, and I proceeded to fail to find her house. Shit, fuck, damn. I tried everything I could think of, but just couldn't locate her. I thought I knew where her house was, but I obviously didn't. It's difficult to describe what I feel, now. disappointment, I think. I've been building up to this for so long! It's ages since I decided I might try and get in touch with her again. Years. Yet I failed on this first attempt. However, I have some more tricks up my sleeve. I shall go to Boston College and try and either get her address, or ask them to forward a letter. If that doesn't work, I'll go to Gartree School, and ask there. Heck, I@ll put an advert in the local Coningsby newspaper f it comes to it! There are also other avenues to try - mutual friends etc. But it's left me feeling weird. There's a sense of having dragged up the past in a big way. But really it was up here all the time, waiting to be played with. I am disappointed, though. I read some more of her letters to me last night. \"Only such an amazingly wonderful person could leave me with such an amazingly wonderful feeling!\" Ah, well. That's over and done with. However, I'm sure with my new wardrobe and haircut I could probably be amazingly wonderful again. But I'm not going to entertain that idea."}, {"response": 268, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (09:51)", "body": "With all these typing errors you would think that I made my living typing, would you? :)"}, {"response": 269, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (10:15)", "body": "28 July, 11.59 p.m. Back home, in bed. I had a terrible day today, really. Especially this afternoon. Well, no terrible - certainly not by what I would normally call terrible. But difficult, I guess. Uncomfortable? I spent a lot fo the time with Srah on my mind. I kept having that quote from yesterday going around in my head. \"...amazingly wonderful feeling\". I had another idea for how to find her address this afternoon. I remember writing it down on a piece of paper here at Dad's, and thought that maybe that wa still around. As soon as I thought that, it was a kind of insanity - it might *work*, I'm so *blown away* by this idea! ROAR! You know the kind of thing.. I'm a little worried about my balance. I'm ot doing balanced things, I'm not taking a balanced approach. I'm hanging something, whatever it is, on the hope of getting in touch with Sarah. I@m not sure whether this is even rational behaviour. I think that in fact is a difficult appreciation to make, but I don't think I'm in the area of being *irrational* yet. I@m not totally off my rocker and out there, but I@m definitely not sitting 100% *on* my rocker :) And then something incredible happened to me this evening. I was thinking phone numbers, and one just popped into my head, just like that. 01526 343135. I@m sure that's the phone number of *someone* I now in Coningsby, but now the more I think about it, the more it sounds like Emma's. Damn. However, I've come up with a way of checking that. I@ll phone Mum and ask her to look in her address book to see if Emma's number is in there. And, thinking about it, there's a long shot chance that Sarah's numb r might be in there. And it's all of this that worries me. the application of cold logic and frantic news ideas to some kind of frenzy to find her. In movies that's always the sign of the fundamentally unstable villain, who is able to use cold, calculating brain power one moment, and then just go off the deep end the next. I feel like I should stop, but I@m not sure I can. So I have some new ideas. And I will probably find her, in the end. On the way, I may well have to overcome some of my deepest fears and insecurities to achieve waht I want. Whic is what this could be about. It *could* be God getting me to face up to some very, very real fears, that reduce my cpacity to be successful. So I@m just going to go with it. Unless God really seem to be saying NO, then I'll carry on. i can't end up much worse than I am."}, {"response": 270, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (10:26)", "body": "29 July. 1:20 p.m. I'm sat on a busy street in Bloomsbury, London, drinking a black coffee and eating a chocolate cake. And of course, writing this. there's something vaguely ridiculous about donig all of this while dressed in a suit, but there we go. I would probably look more authentic in my black rollneck, smoking from a cigarette holder! I'm not sure I like being on parade like this, but there we go. I wonder if I look daft. Lunching office worker with no friends to have lunch with? Or, maybe, eccentric poet in t e bondage of a city job, struggling to escape?! Ah, the lives I could create for myself. Thoughts of Sarah have been few this morning. Rather, I've been thinking about the first year at my sixth form college as a whole, and what a wonderfully high time it was! It's difficult to describe. There was something pure about it - I keep thinking the words \"raw\", \"unadulterated\", \"without limits\". Just something. And I don't think it's purely a retrospective creation, either, since I remember feeling this way at the time. what was it about that year? That year in particular, that I've never re lly come close to again. It's probably much to do with the removing of all the constraints that had held me back at school. I had the chance to re-invent myself, which I promptly did. Maybe that really was it. I could approach new situations with a clean slate, not reacting to them the way I would have previously, but in the way that the \"new me\" decided to. There was a real sense of liberation. perhaps that's what I need to do now. Maybe I'm fed up with being the person that I am, and it's re-invention time. But that's not easy, since I'm essentially happy with my \"persona\" as it stands; it's just the bit inside of me that needs some work. I would love to recapture that first \"boston feeling\". LOOK AT THAT! The new me went to a flower shop, bought a rose and presented it to the college's best looking woman by a long way. And by George, it worked! Me! and Sarah! ha! how envious they were! And I need to recapture some of that \"free spirit\", which sounds cheesy, but is essentially the point. Unafraid to fail. What the hell was it that I had? Moreover, where on earth did it go? That's one fo the more pertinent questions I've asked for ages. Definitely the one most worth answering."}, {"response": 271, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug  2, 1998 (17:50)", "body": "Have you tried doing an \"infospace\" search for Sarah, Mike? And for $25 there's a company that will find anyone, I think they advertise on Infospace's page. What an odyssey of remembrance you're on, with a dash of obsession to spice it up, I wish you luck in re-uniting with her and thank you for sharing these most intimate moments with you. What is the situation with Emma? And any more clues on finding Sarah? Are you sure she's still in that little down? Have you seen the movie Dancer Texas yet, it may have some relevance for you or you might enjoy it."}, {"response": 272, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug  5, 1998 (11:38)", "body": "I hope you find her, Mike. But in a way I find it a shame that you dwell on the past so incredibly, heartrendingly much. Makes me wish I could go to wherever she is, take her by the hair and drag her to wherever you are."}, {"response": 273, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Aug  6, 1998 (14:17)", "body": "that's a beautiful image Ree-head!! *smile* I often look up people from my past... I understand the dissappointment associated with writing down thoughts and anticipating rekindled communication and then hitting a barrier such as the one you hit Mike... good luck!"}, {"response": 274, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Aug  6, 1998 (16:19)", "body": "I used to look up people alot too, but I was almost almost dissappointed upon meeting with someone from the past again - not good old friends, because with them things will always remain the same - but the few boyfriends I had. It was like they expected the feeling to be the same as before, but how could that be? A few years and a big distance don't leave anything unchanged. I think if people can meet people from their past without longing for the person they once were, and trying to be the person the ther once knew, it would be a beautiful thing. Taking the time to get to know the changed person. Few people are willing to do that. My old boyfriends always seem dissappointed that I'm neither seventeen nor a free soul anymore - as if marriage and children means a person gives up his/her soul, and as if indeed I ever POSSESSED a soul at all! And I'm always dissappointed for dissappointing them. So I don't bother anymore. All I know is that the relationship that lasted was the one started from scratc ."}, {"response": 275, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (00:51)", "body": "I sit here. Night time. Quiet. I have been living up on Mt. Tamalpais in Mill Valley this August. Rented out a forest cottage for the month. Just to get away -- yet come down occasionally for some work and business. Five weeks. Seems like enternity."}, {"response": 276, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (02:24)", "body": "That sounds heavenly to me. But you've been away much much longer than five weeks, haven't you? Are you going to come to the other conferences too? We've all been very active while you were at your cottage. Whatever, it's GREAT to have you back."}, {"response": 277, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (07:56)", "body": "americ!!! glad you are back!"}, {"response": 278, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (11:02)", "body": "Bear-thing, how are the wedding plans coming on? Have you got the permission yet?"}, {"response": 279, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (13:58)", "body": "oh no, still working on the anullment, but some wedding plans have been made, such as location for reception, caterer, etc. Hopefully soon!"}, {"response": 280, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (22:10)", "body": "I've had many wonderful trips on Mt. Tam, literally. We occasionally had gatherings there during the Monday Night Class days. Have you been to Green Gulch Farm, Americ?"}, {"response": 281, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Aug 15, 1998 (22:25)", "body": "where are these places and why haven't i heard of them before?"}, {"response": 282, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (00:29)", "body": "Same here - haven't even DREAMT of them before. Ray, is a traditional wedding (with church and the do afterwards and all that) very expensive? Is your girlfriend's father paying?"}, {"response": 283, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (15:11)", "body": "yes, it can get expensive, but my gf and i are going to be paying for all of it, so it will not be a very big wedding, just immediate family and a few close friends. i am of mexican descent and she is filipino. in both our cultures, the groom's father pays for the wedding! since my parents paid for my first wedding we figured it would not be fair for them to have to pay for my second one!"}, {"response": 284, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (00:21)", "body": "ha-ha! In Africa it's the same thing. With us the man even has to ask the wife's father. Which my husband didn't do, of course. Where will you go on honeymoon?"}, {"response": 285, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (09:46)", "body": "probably Maui, in Hawaii. we also may go to Singapore and Hong Kong. Still deciding!!"}, {"response": 286, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (10:25)", "body": "Wow!!! I've never been to any of those places, so when you come back you must post some photos, will you?"}, {"response": 287, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (12:40)", "body": "oh definitely! my finacee is a photographer so we should have plenty to post."}, {"response": 288, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (17:32)", "body": "OK, all you married people out there (past and present), where did you go on your honeymoon? We went to Quebec, Canada."}, {"response": 289, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (18:15)", "body": "uh, louisiana state fair (with my mother)"}, {"response": 290, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (18:16)", "body": "hey, i was three months pregnant, my mother came up to the wedding....so, we, like, had our honeymoon at least three months earlier :o"}, {"response": 291, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (22:33)", "body": "Galveston, TX"}, {"response": 292, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (00:06)", "body": "Pfleugerville, Idaho. I undressed before her that night, and her eyes were unrelenting in their disbelief as they looked directly at it for the first time. She started backing up toward the door, and while still gaping at me (in dread), she opened the door and backed out. I never saw her again. After four years on the couch with the best psychoanalyst in Syria, I went blind. Only a month later I was executed in Chile. It was chilly that day when they laid my body to rest at the feeling feet of my wif . Her toejams smelled so bad, I never could get my rest until all the dirt was in the hole that I finally lay peacefully at the bottom of. Sleep well tonight, my dear ones. I know I will, of course."}, {"response": 293, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (00:34)", "body": "Swiss Engadine, four months pregnant. And even that was too far away - all types of transport made me feel like DYING, I was so sick. ha-ha - Sweet memory!"}, {"response": 294, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (10:30)", "body": "My two marriages. Louise. Big Sur, CA. Joy. The Coast of N Calif and Mt. Shasta."}, {"response": 295, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (12:58)", "body": "Lucky you to have had two honeymoons!!"}, {"response": 296, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (16:49)", "body": "Maybe three someday. The next one has to be Europe. Gotta find that girl first, though."}, {"response": 297, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (19:47)", "body": "europe? hell, *i'll* marry you!"}, {"response": 298, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (21:42)", "body": "been there, done that, and am taken (not that anyone was wondering)"}, {"response": 299, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (00:34)", "body": "That is exactly what I have been wondering all week! Which places did you visit? Germany to start with, I suspect?"}, {"response": 300, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (13:23)", "body": "Wer, I have heard of Galveston--what is there? Riette, I have never heard of Swiss Engadine. Where is it and what is there? Terry, I plan to explore all of North and Central CA someday and would love to go to the Cascade Mtns. someday. Maybe you could just go to europe and find someone there? :-)"}, {"response": 301, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (15:31)", "body": "Oh no, Autumn!!!! Poor Terry! European women are beautiful, but brainless and boring, with no opinion of their own!! Well, perhaps that's ENOUGH reason to take one! The Engadine is a mountain range here, not too far from St. Moritz - but not so high as the alps. Just high enough to breathe fresh air, and go for long long long walks from village to village, drinking hot chocolate and eating cakes."}, {"response": 302, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (19:32)", "body": "hey, hey, hey! (i am european by design and i have a very decided opinions)"}, {"response": 303, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (22:20)", "body": "Galveston is on the Gulf coast, the wife grew up just north of there, we could afford it, so that's where we went..."}, {"response": 304, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (00:47)", "body": "God, how I know that feeling, Wer. With us it was: either we could go some place exotic and miss out on the African holiday the end of the NEXT year, or we could go to the Engadine for . . . four days . . . and call THAT our honeymoon. Well, neither of us were willing to give up Africa. But I think a honeymoon is totally romantic, WHEREVER one goes. I loved mine. HA-HA, WOLF!!!!!!"}, {"response": 305, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (08:44)", "body": "I'm back! I was back yesterday, but Netscape decided to eat my response before I had entered it :-( Not a good start. I'm going to type my response in Notepad, and then paste it in here - back in a few minutes...."}, {"response": 306, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (08:54)", "body": "good to \"see\" you again!!"}, {"response": 307, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (08:55)", "body": "hey mike! glad you're back!"}, {"response": 308, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (08:59)", "body": "So, I'm back. Except this feels a little weird because I'm typing in Notepad instead of the Reply box. No matter - I'll cope, I'm sure :) So, what's been going on with me? Well, I disappeared to go to work, as you know, and was very sorry to leave you all behind. Hopefully I won't have to suffer quite as long a soujorn in the future. Work was quite good - I like doing jobs where I *know* that I can do them well - and I met lots of nice people. It was strange: I fitted in. I don't fit in here at university. I didn't fit in at school. At work, I did. It was great to be know so many people. I also met somebody, um..., nice :) We met t a workmate's birthday party. My chat-up line was lots of dancing to groovy seventies music (which is totally my thing :), and then I followed up with \"either i've got to leave now to get the train home, or I'm sleeping in your room tonight\". I woke up the next morning in her room :) Her name is Michelle, and she's 27 and works in the Curriculum Innovations Department. She's particularly lovely because she's tall .....if we both take our shoes off, she's actually taller than me!!!! YES! She's also got blond highlights which look lovely. We went to the theatre, which was fun; then I got sick, so she bought me grapes which cheered me up no end. Then we went out to dinner and spent time in London together and all sorts of fun stuff. She cooked me dinner last weekend, wh ch was lovely lovely. And everything's going spiffingly. I've finally managed to do what (I think) wer suggested weeks and weeks ago: just Be. I've switched off the part of my brain that thinks too far ahead, that analyses too much, that tries to think of the consequences of every action. And it's great. I didn't think I would ever manage it, but I did. There's seven years between Michelle and I, but that doesn't seem to matter because it's not worth thinking about. I am happy. Hehe...my next posting will be fun, though. I went on holiday and, um...well, read on:-)"}, {"response": 309, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (09:01)", "body": "this is very good news!"}, {"response": 310, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (09:28)", "body": "So, I'm back. Except this feels a little weird because I'm typing in Notepad instead of the Reply box. No matter - I'll cope, I'm sure :) So, what's been going on with me? Well, I disappeared to go to work, as you know, and was very sorry to leave you all behind. Hopefully I won't have to suffer quite as long a soujorn in the future. Work was quite good - I like doing jobs where I *know* that I can do them well - and I met lots of nice people. It was strange: I fitted in. I don't fit in here at university. I didn't fit in at school. At work, I did. It was great to be know so many people. I also met somebody, um..., nice :) We met t a workmate's birthday party. My chat-up line was lots of dancing to groovy seventies music (which is totally my thing :), and then I followed up with \"either i've got to leave now to get the train home, or I'm sleeping in your room tonight\". I woke up the next morning in her room :) Her name is Michelle, and she's 27 and works in the Curriculum Innovations Department. She's particularly lovely because she's tall .....if we both take our shoes off, she's actually taller than me!!!! YES! She's also got blond highlights which look lovely. We went to the theatre, which was fun; then I got sick, so she bought me grapes which cheered me up no end. Then we went out to dinner and spent time in London together and all sorts of fun stuff. She cooked me dinner last weekend, wh ch was lovely lovely. And everything's going spiffingly. I've finally managed to do what (I think) wer suggested weeks and weeks ago: just Be. I've switched off the part of my brain that thinks too far ahead, that analyses too much, that tries to think of the consequences of every action. And it's great. I didn't think I would ever manage it, but I did. There's seven years between Michelle and I, but that doesn't seem to matter because it's not worth thinking about. I am happy. Hehe...my next posting will be fun, though. I went on holiday and, um...well, read on:-)"}, {"response": 311, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (09:29)", "body": "10 September, 1998 (0140 hours) I have a lot to say. Today I came as close to losing my life as I ever want to come. Certainly as close as I have ever been. Matt and I drove up to the North Coast of Lanzarote to get in the surf. We hired boards, got our suits on and waxed up. We walked over to the cove we had seen a couple of days before which was surrounded by rocks on both sides but had a long, calm run-out in the direction of the waves. As soon as I got in the water I realised that the waves were much bigger than I\ufffdd thought and basically all of my confidence disappeared. I paddled about a bit, riding over incoming waves. Then I decided to try and catch one. I obviously chose the wrong one because it was massive, really massive. As I got to the top I must have been seven or eight feet off the surface level, and when I started down the speed was phenomenal. I just grabbed the board and held on for dear life. I remember looking down nd seeing another surfer below me; as I hurtled down the wave I missed him, quite literally, but about four inches - he must have just seen me because he paddled out of my path just in time. It occurred to me about a second after this that I might hit someone else so I\ufffdd better get off the board. I feel off of the back just as the wave decided to collapse into white water - shit. I got tumbled and mashed really badly. It was actually the first time I\ufffdd been tumbled, and it was by a seriously powerful wave. I was carried at huge speed by this thing, mostly unable to breath apart from a few shallow gasps, for about fifteen or twenty seconds. Which is a long time when you\ufffdre underwater, try ng not to panic. I can\ufffdt really describe the fear to you. When the wave finally ran out, and I surfaced, I was pretty spooked. I had a bad feeling about the waves and my ability to surf them. But I thought I would stay in and catch another - if you fall off a horse you have to get straight back on, etc. I paddled around for quite a while, still spooked and obviously - although I didn\ufffdt realise it at the time - without any of the confidence I needed. I decided to try for another wave, and I got seriously tumbled again. After this I was seriously spooked and ealised that I had to get out. I started paddling toward the long run-out, all the time being chased by these huge waves. I was scared and starting to get tired. I didn\ufffdt seem to be getting anywhere, and all the while I was getting big waves crashing on me. Every time I saw one coming I would wait until the last second and then grab a breath and jump up, hoping to clear it. Some I did, others I didn\ufffdt. At some point I was mashed and got hit in the chest by one of the fins on the board. I was gettin closer and closer to the run-out and the waves were getting less powerful. This is good, I thought, just get out and have a long walk back around the shore to reach the car. Then, disaster. As I got closer to the safe area, rocks started appearing at my feet - I fell over on them and hurt myself a bit. Shit. There was no way I could go forwards, because I\ufffdd be smashed to pieces, along with the board, on the rocks in front of me. For some reason I decided that I would try and get onto the coastline over toward our car. Although this was, with hindsight, a bad decision, I realised that I had a choice - either risk the rocks or be marooned out in the surf, where I would definitely have drow ed. I started over toward the rocks, very scared. The waves kept coming in, and I kept trying to get over them, usually with success. I was already tired, though, and with the added effect of paddling and jumping waves I was getting seriously worn out. It took me about six to eight minutes of this to start approaching the rocks, although it seemed like much longer; it certainly cost me more in terms of energy. Then rocks started appearing under y feet again. I slipped and fell, with panic rising in me because the waves were still coming in. I managed to get slightly away from them before the next wave came in. Alternately stumbling and jumping, I realised that I was in serious trouble. There was no way I could get away from the rocks and find a better landing point - the waves were just too strong and I was just too worn out and weak; but, there was a good chance that one of these waves would pick me up on ts crest and throw me against the rocks, which would essentially kill me - either from the impact itself or from me losing consciousness and then drowning. I released that I could die. Not just that I could die, but that there was a very good chance that I would. I was staring death in the face, for the first time. I remember thinking about what was going to happen and there seemed a terrible finality about it - I didn\ufffdt have any sense of afterlife or anything peaceful, just a feeling of pure emptines and despair. I realised that I didn\ufffdt want to die, and more importantly, that I wasn\ufffdt supposed to die, not yet. All of these thoughts occurred in just a few second"}, {"response": 312, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (09:37)", "body": "Apologies for all of the multiple postings - Netscape seems to have gone crazy again. I have talked through everything that happened, and I'm much more at ease with everything, which is good :)"}, {"response": 313, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (09:39)", "body": "Do you realise that you're the only people who have ever read my diary?"}, {"response": 314, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (10:43)", "body": "Mike, do you know about inner?"}, {"response": 315, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (10:46)", "body": "inner? nope. new conf?"}, {"response": 316, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (10:50)", "body": "i'm certainly glad you came out alive! and thank you for feeling safe enough with us to share your private thoughts *hugs*"}, {"response": 317, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (10:58)", "body": "Really, I'm grateful we're such a caring group. There are places on the net that are insensitive and places where you would get beat up pretty badly. We've become a safe haven."}, {"response": 318, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (11:55)", "body": "Oh, cool!!! It's GREAT that you're in love, Mike!!! Don't forget to keep us up to date with that in inner, okay? Oh, and great to have you back! That thing with the wave sounds really scary. For me just standing on a surf board IS a near death experience - so this is like . . . mega cool!"}, {"response": 319, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (21:41)", "body": "Mike, glad to hear you are out there experiencing life instead of letting it experience you for a change. Hope to see you in \"inner\" also."}, {"response": 320, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 17, 1998 (00:41)", "body": "And how are you, Autumn?"}, {"response": 321, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (05:11)", "body": "Do I really have to change conferences?? I don't wanna go to inner, I wanna stay here..... *sulk*"}, {"response": 322, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (07:03)", "body": "Don't sulk, just give us the details, please! Don't care where! Does Michelle live in London? How often can you see her?"}, {"response": 323, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (08:38)", "body": "yes, don't keep us waiting!"}, {"response": 324, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (16:37)", "body": "You don't want Michelle logging on and reading all your private thoughts in cyberspace, do you??? Then get on over to inner so she'll think you don't kiss and tell. BTW, I'm good, Riette. I've recovered from my reunion."}, {"response": 325, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Sep 19, 1998 (00:21)", "body": "ah-ha! so you are as old as everyone else..."}, {"response": 326, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 19, 1998 (00:41)", "body": "What does that mean? I suppose we are all as old as everyone else."}, {"response": 327, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Sep 21, 1998 (21:10)", "body": "Some of us are even older."}, {"response": 328, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 21, 1998 (21:23)", "body": "All in the mind."}, {"response": 329, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Sep 21, 1998 (21:35)", "body": "And a little around the eyes."}, {"response": 330, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 21, 1998 (22:31)", "body": "ALOT around the eyes in my case. I dread to think what I'm going to look like in 10 years' time. Insomnia makes my eyes look about 20 years older than the rest of me."}, {"response": 331, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep 22, 1998 (08:22)", "body": "do you have problems with insomnia, riette?"}, {"response": 332, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Sep 22, 1998 (15:46)", "body": "okay, okay...good point about the kiss and tell business. inner it is :)"}, {"response": 333, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Sep 22, 1998 (15:47)", "body": "to be honest though, my buggered up life of the last few months is global read only at the moment, so it hardly matters =)"}, {"response": 334, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (00:56)", "body": "OH, who cares, Mike? It's not like you're going to bump into your readers in the street or anything! Yes, Ray, I have terrible insomnia. Don't ask me why: I don't worry, I don't relive horrors of the past (ha-ha!!) or anything like that. I just can't switch off. Also makes the temper worse."}, {"response": 335, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (03:21)", "body": "\" I just can't switch off.\" perfect description..."}, {"response": 336, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (10:22)", "body": "i'm sorry to hear that riette. have you seen a doctor? i am thinking that you need a complete workup in terms of diet, lifestyle, medical exam, etc, in order to figure out why you dont sleep!"}, {"response": 337, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (13:17)", "body": "My doctor has been trying different things on me over the past 4 years, but without success. My health is perfect, my bloodpressure on the low side, and she says she really doesn't know the reason either, for she can find no medical explanation. Just one of those things, I guess. The pain about it is that sleeping tablets make me so groggy the next day that I refuse to take them - it can't be good for one. And homeopathing medicine has no effect whatsoever. I try not to sleep during the day, and that usually gives me four hours or so at night. But when I do fall asleep during the day, I'm buggered. Like the other night - I literally didn't sleep AT ALL. I always say it's such a shame my children sleep so well - I would have been the perfect mother to deal with babies who cry at night; at least it would keep me occupied, and in company!"}, {"response": 338, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (13:23)", "body": "Have you researched sleep topics on the net? Is there anything new or useful out there for you. What time is it in Switzerland right now and how has your wake/sleep cycle been today?"}, {"response": 339, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (14:33)", "body": "what you need is a cassette tape - maybe of a play or a radio show. listen to it, the same one, every night. That's what i've done for the last five years. Now, whenever i go to sleep, i put one of the tapes on and because i know exactly what is going to be said, I don't have to concentrate; but, because there's noise and i'm listening, my brain basically switches off. try it - it works for me."}, {"response": 340, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (14:54)", "body": "have you ever tried imagining yourself in a place you like and completely concentrating on it so that you can smell the air, feel the sun, or whatever? this works for me when i'm stressed. knowing that i'm safe and in a place i love allows me to relax and then i'm out. i also don't go to bed until i am ready to sleep."}, {"response": 341, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (14:58)", "body": "Do you go to bed at wildly different times then?"}, {"response": 342, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (17:01)", "body": "If you do, you could try melatonin to give your body a predictable sleep/wake cycle. Also, the herb Valerian helps me get a good night's sleep when I need to it. You take it at least a half hour before bed and it is relaxing--and no groggy feeling the next day."}, {"response": 343, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (17:07)", "body": "yeah, i used to take some herbal, non-habit-forming tablets. if you can't get them in switzerland, i could send you some."}, {"response": 344, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (00:58)", "body": "What a funny coincedence - I've actually taken some good tablets last night. A new, also herblistic tablet, that my doctor thought off while giving Chris a check-up yesterday. I needed three, but slept like a baby, and feel just great this morning. No grogginess, and NO tiredness!!!! I've tried that tape thing, Mike, but never with voices - always my favourite music. Usually I listen to Bach, which is my favourite place to go as well!, but I get so into the music that my mind becomes even more awake. How can anyone go to sleep in the midst of such profound genius? But next time I'll try it with voices. You should record me one of those tapes with you saying, 'You are feeling sleepy!', some time! But thank you for the advice, everyone - it is appreciated! I'll look for in on the web as well. Basically I don't really want to lose the insomnia, because I just love the quietness of the night, working away without kids and phones pestering me. It's just when it carries on for weeks on end that it becomes a pain, because I get so tired that I have this constand veil of tears in front of my eyes, and can't see properly. Plus having a temper is not much use when one has little kids to look after."}, {"response": 345, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (06:46)", "body": "yeah, it never works for me with music. got to be voices. i used to take four herbal tablets, which used to knock me right out. never worked before exams, though, which was a shame."}, {"response": 346, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (10:18)", "body": "You poor thing!"}, {"response": 347, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (17:58)", "body": "too much melatonin, though, and you have really funky dreams and a sort of hangover thing happening the next day..."}, {"response": 348, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (01:05)", "body": "What sort of funky dreams?"}, {"response": 349, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (07:42)", "body": "guess that would depend on the person... I just notice that mine are weirder after taking melatonin... must be the extra pineal stimulation..."}, {"response": 350, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (11:09)", "body": "PINEAL stimulation? Where's that?"}, {"response": 351, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (11:09)", "body": "Do I have a pinea?"}, {"response": 352, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Sep 25, 1998 (12:17)", "body": "that would be pineal, and yes you do..."}, {"response": 353, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 26, 1998 (00:28)", "body": "where?"}, {"response": 354, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Sep 26, 1998 (11:42)", "body": "in your head"}, {"response": 355, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 26, 1998 (11:58)", "body": "Gee, with such vulgarly named things in one's head, is it any wonder we get screwed up at times?"}, {"response": 356, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (17:37)", "body": "hehe :-) Can I make a suggestion? This topic is getting rather large and it might be a nice idea to freeze it and start a new one. That way any new people turning up don't have to feel put off by having 350+ postings to wade through."}, {"response": 357, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (20:33)", "body": "my idea of a large topic is about 700-800 responses. but to be honest it is no big deal! i will freeze this puppy and start a new topic."}, {"response": 358, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (16:36)", "body": "For telnetters it scrolls rapidly. For windows use 28/new. In drool we did not freeze a topic until it started messing up the posts. Some where around the 2000th as I recall."}, {"response": 359, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (11:09)", "body": "My day's philosophy is a question: whether one should let kids watch Disney movies or not. Why? My little one was sitting on her potty, doing a $hitsy, singing, 'Kakuna-matata! Kakuna-matata!!''"}, {"response": 360, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (16:00)", "body": "lol! I see nothing wrong with taht! er... that!"}, {"response": 361, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep  3, 1999 (02:15)", "body": "I thought it rather hilarious that Disney lends itself to such puns! So much so that even a 3 year-old can figure it out!!!"}, {"response": 362, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Sep  3, 1999 (08:16)", "body": "Sounds like a good thing. No harm in that."}, {"response": 363, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep  3, 1999 (13:21)", "body": "Not at all. I always say a person cannot develop a foul mind early enough."}, {"response": 364, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Sep  4, 1999 (17:29)", "body": "My kids just walked in the door 15 minutes ago from seeing Tarzan at the $2 movies, and both basically said it was scary and violent. But they liked it! Some friends of mine boycott Disney because one of their subsidiaries is in the video porn business. They feel if Disney wants to project a family-friendly image they should divest themselves of these other interests."}, {"response": 365, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Sat, Sep  4, 1999 (18:59)", "body": "I wouldn't call \"Touchstone Pictures\" porn...but they are R-rated and generally not family fare."}, {"response": 366, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Sep  5, 1999 (01:35)", "body": "My kids love Disney movies, and I too think most of them (certainly not all) are well done. But the whole Disney-THANG stinks. And Disney land is on top of the list of things about the Disney industry that stinks. A perfect world of plastic where people are nevertheless clearly seperated by how much of this perfect world they can buy - the difference between staying in the Disney hotel and the Cheynne dump. The worst display of the evils of capitalism. A perfect world of plastic where you pay 4 times the normal price for everything. I don't know, in my mind it always brings up that image of, you can have ANYTHING you want in life - as long as you pay the price. Going to Disneyland was one of the biggest disillusions I've ever experienced. Especially when I saw a little boy of perhaps 4 years old, trying to sneak through the 2 hour qeue to go on the Pinnochio ride, and Goofy sneered at him something to the effect of, 'Get back in line, you little brat!'"}, {"response": 367, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Sep  7, 1999 (20:03)", "body": "I'd druther be boiled in oil or something equally dire than go to D-land. One of the sleaziest motels I have ever been in was across the street from the one in Anaheim, California. Never again! (That's where I was informed proudly that my Eudora had been purposely hacked so you-know-who could read my email while I was gone.)"}, {"response": 368, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (02:19)", "body": "God, talk about disillusionment!"}, {"response": 369, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (08:40)", "body": "Kakuna-matata! Kakuna-matata!! The motto of the Orenda Project is Ha-Tikkuna Mutata Olam."}, {"response": 370, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (10:49)", "body": "What is the Orenda Project?"}, {"response": 371, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (08:34)", "body": "The Orenda Project is a modest effort to reverse the catastrophic mistakes that are leading our culture into an apocalyptic train wreck."}, {"response": 372, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (11:06)", "body": "Got it. Looks cool!"}, {"response": 373, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (13:52)", "body": "I'm not sure you can make just a \"modest effort\" to do that can you? :-))"}, {"response": 374, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (14:54)", "body": "Indeed!"}, {"response": 375, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (00:55)", "body": "Must take a great deal of commitment."}, {"response": 376, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (10:26)", "body": "What have you got going on today, Ree Ree?"}, {"response": 377, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (13:17)", "body": "Today I had a haircut! Yeah! No more of that horrible business you saw on the video - it's all gone really short. No more paint in my hair, no more combing out knots, hair in my face or any of that nonsense. Only problem is I look like a 12 year-old boy....pretty appalling. Went for lunch with Chris afterwards, and people were STARING, including the waiter. I nearly said to him, 'Buggers can't be choosers, you know!' Yeah, it was a FUN day! What were you up to?"}, {"response": 378, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Sep 11, 1999 (12:07)", "body": "Running out to the country to rent a room, cleaning up the house, doing Friday things. It was a good day. Today I feel a bit of mailaise, not sure how to fix it."}, {"response": 379, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 11, 1999 (12:49)", "body": "Poor Terry-guy. I'm sorry to hear that. Any reason for feeling bad? Why are you renting a room in the country? Are you spending the weekend there?"}, {"response": 380, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Sep 11, 1999 (15:58)", "body": "I'm renting one of my rooms out to someone else. I guess you can't just peak out all the time, can you?"}, {"response": 381, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (03:37)", "body": "I guess not."}, {"response": 382, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (19:10)", "body": "I'm in a drought -- a creative desert. Thirsty. Deep in artistic avoidance. Blocked. BlockING. Stopped. Creativity requires *activity* ... Which leads me to my day's philosophy, even though it's already evening: \"We learn to do something by doing it. There is no other way.\" -- John Holt (OK, it'll be my philosophy for tomorrow, too, so it gets a longer run. :)"}, {"response": 383, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (02:46)", "body": "We learn to do something by doing it. There is no other way. I'll remember that."}, {"response": 384, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (07:40)", "body": "thats a good kick in the ass that i needed to get started today! good to remember that."}, {"response": 385, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (13:44)", "body": "I'm thinking I need to write it on my hand in ink, like in junior high. ;) It sure is a lot easier to talk about writing than to sit down and face the blank pages."}, {"response": 386, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (15:06)", "body": "You're SO right. I have this essay that I HAVE to hand in on Friday - about 1960's counter-culture. I know precisely what I WANT to say, but I just can't SAY it! But tonight I sat down, like your philosopher said, and just started writing ANYTHING that came into my head on the subject - and now I've done almost 3 full pages already. It really works! It's a JUST DO IT!-thing"}, {"response": 387, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (18:44)", "body": "What do you need to know?"}, {"response": 388, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (18:46)", "body": "Terry, she is missing out on a really great chance to pick brains if she does not talk to you about this essay. You are the very thing she needs!"}, {"response": 389, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (04:49)", "body": "Okay then. Terry, I need to know whether the term 'counter-culture' is a useful one with which to describe all the changes that took place in the 60's. The unit treats it as a 'no'. They argue that what took place was a kind of failed 'cultural revolution' (different of course from the one in China) - that it must have failed, since all those movements have since either falllen by the wayside, or have become a part of mainstream culture. Plus the woman who wrote the unit claims that counter-culture ch llenges historical continuity. I get the feeling we are expected to come up with a 'no' also, but I think it is a VERY useful term to be applied to the 60's. I think it was in no way a cultural revolution that took place, but cultural EVOLUTION. It bears all the characteristics, and therefore I think that counter-culture ENSURES historical continuity, rather than challenges it. I mean, if counter-culture didn't happen, mainstream culture would simply stagnate; and if one thinks of counter-culture as an evolutionary movement, then it is a sign of its success when it gets absorbed into mainstream culture, not failure. Am I WAY WAY off here?"}, {"response": 390, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (07:03)", "body": "No, you're right on, ree. As Bob Dylan and Paul Simon roll into Austin for a concert, I am reminded of my 60s days. The 60s boomers are now driving the most awesome economic boom in history and their values permeate succeeding generations like no other before it. Even though I'm driving a nice car, have my houses, and my net goings on, I'll never forget my roots in the inner city commune, the bus caravan, the hippie Farm, and the quest to Save the World. 60s culture permeates our lives like no other culture before or since. Far from having failed, it is continually on the verge or reawakening. We tried to build the world's largest vegetarian, nonviolent community in the 60s and 70s and, in a sense, we failed because there are only 200-300 people living on the 2,000 acres now in Tennessee, but many of the values we spawned live on in the people that have gone out in the world and not forgotten. The same is true of people that lived on backwoods communes in Oregon and communal pads in Louisville during this era, their scene has changed but they keep their values alive. Hey, any specific questions? That one was kind of broad, reehead."}, {"response": 391, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (09:45)", "body": "No, no, I think it's great. If you, as a witness of the counter-culture think it a useful term, then I can get good marks arguing FOR counter-culture, because now I am CONVINCED of the validity of my argument. Hail Counter-Culture!!! Mum is of course very anxious to see how I'm going to do on this one, and wants a copy of the essay, so I'm having to be extra careful! But I'll let you know how it went, then you'll be proud of me, or disgusted!"}, {"response": 392, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (09:58)", "body": "I'll be proud o fyou no matter what. Are you going to wear your peace symbol necklace to the presentation?"}, {"response": 393, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (10:01)", "body": ""}, {"response": 394, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (13:00)", "body": "Riette - HOLY THE BOP APOCALYPSE! Counterculture has been - as basically every trend - always been either smashed or bought. Look at, say, punk! NYC's seventies scene was very counter culture - they were both COUNTR and CULTURE, think Patti Smith, Lou Reed, etc. -, along comes Malcom McLaren, transplants the whole feeling to London, and BAM! you had the punk revolution! And look around today - it changed the whole way people thing of style, elegance, art. It's decayed already, substituted by HipHop counter culture, but it's there..."}, {"response": 395, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (13:01)", "body": "That's cooL!!! I'd LUV to have a thing like that! Especially if it is going to flicker like that! As it is, I'm afraid the only thing they will be seeing is the Star of David which the rabbi gave me when I took the mitzvah! A little conservative, you think????"}, {"response": 396, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (13:07)", "body": "OK. OK> I understand about the Star of David. How about a tie died t shirt? Check out http://www.hippynet.com"}, {"response": 397, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (16:20)", "body": "Read some W. Burroughs to them. Or, if it has to be German, something by Hadayatullah H\ufffdbsch - German beat Poet, writes since late 60ies, ran first German hippie shop, pop and drugs and literature, converted to Islam. (superstar 3/99 runs an interview with him... End of sales plug.)"}, {"response": 398, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (03:02)", "body": "Hadayatullah H\ufffdbsh??? With a name like that he must have been on a life long ego-trip! I'll try and get hole of Burroughs before Monday - that's when it's got to be done. What a shame they don't sell your mag at the kiosk...darn it! But thanks for the tips you both; at least now I've got more references to wangle in such a way that they'll support my argument."}, {"response": 399, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (12:14)", "body": "He had a regular German first name, and at one point in late 60ies, standing in an African desert, he apparently had a religous experience (who do I have to tell about this here...). Subsequently, he studied Islam and converted. He takes this very serious; curiously, counter culture has kicked him out for that (sobering up, kicking drug use, giving up political dogmas, taking up religion), and the establishment never really forgave him, either. He is a German beat author, participates in poetry slams with the younger writers, does poetry and prose, publishes with tiny companies. Music is very important for him, he reads several music magazines, and is fascinated by pop culture. Riette, wie gut ist Dein Deutsch?"}, {"response": 400, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (12:17)", "body": "I'm sure it's just as good as her everything else!"}, {"response": 401, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (12:26)", "body": "Hmh, now, if I were to reciproke that with our Miss Colorado here, how good should your German be? (Bet you never read Hank's article I posted in the superstar top!)"}, {"response": 402, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (12:44)", "body": "I'm sure it should be better and your right... I never got too much past his passion for fishsticks!"}, {"response": 403, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (13:19)", "body": "Mein geschriebene Deutsch ist nicht so gut wie mein Englisch, ich verstehe aber so ungef\ufffdhr alles. Lese auch gern; mein lieblings Theaterst\ufffdck ist Danton's Tod. Und Goethe finde ich genau so ausgezeignet wie Shakespeare; schade, dass Englische Uebersetzungen seine Arbeit einfach nicht w\ufffdrdig sind. Aber wenn Ich jetzt einen Schweizer Teenie w\ufffdre, h\ufffdtte ich Goethe sicher 'affengeil' genannt!! ha-ha! Wieso? Hast du einen Vorschlag f\ufffdr ein Artikel oder sowas \ufffdber 'counter-culture' auf Deutsch? Ich w\ufffdrde GERN versuchen es zu finden! K\ufffdnnte so ziemlich alles gebrauchen - nur muss ich es SCHNELL finden k\ufffdnnen."}, {"response": 404, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (15:01)", "body": "Dann will ich mal sehen, was der nette Onkel hier hat..."}, {"response": 405, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 17, 1999 (03:28)", "body": "Der nette Onkel soll nur SCHNELL machen! Actually, I finished the essay last night - but if you can think of something without it causing you effort to find it, I'll be happy to read it. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 29, "subject": "Death", "response_count": 41, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jun 13, 1998 (20:05)", "body": "The decades of learning, loving and experience which are then extinguished. Too often death is \"glamourised\" or \"glossed over\" in the media. But when I hear the phrase \"hundreds of dead\", or even \"scores of dead\", or maybe just \"one man died\", I am all too often struck by the knowledge of the real loss that is entailed. The life. That's what it is. The fact that life has gone; not biological functions, since they are purely mechanistic, but what is \"above\" those things. What makes us what we are. Our capacity to love, to give, to hurt and hate. All gone."}, {"response": 2, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jun 14, 1998 (01:49)", "body": "I think death is probably alot less terrible for the person who dies, than for those who stay behind. One of the reasons why we fear death is probably because we think it's going to be painful - a conclusion we come to when we see someone suffer from illness before they die, or the blood that is sometimes involved; one thinks of how it stings to even just prick oneself with a needle, and that therefore death has to be truly terrible. But I'm sure our vital organs are probably alot less sensitive to sensation than our fingers. I don't know, but I think to die is probably quite an easy, painless thing, certainly less painful than to be born. But the superstition and dark clouds surrounding it must come from the pain and helplessness we experience when somebody dies."}, {"response": 3, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jun 15, 1998 (12:55)", "body": "Absolutely. I liked that part about the organs being less susceptible to pain; it must be true because people are often in the end stages of an unnamed disease before it's detected. No symptoms. But if you burn your finger you sure know it in a hurry. That capacity to love, give, etc. is passed on as a legacy to those left behind, and hopefully they (we) recycle that energy and pass it on too, when we go."}, {"response": 4, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun 16, 1998 (13:38)", "body": "Yes, energy. I love the images the thought evokes."}, {"response": 5, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jun 20, 1998 (20:51)", "body": "Dying in a dream was probably one of the most traumatic things I ever went through."}, {"response": 6, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jun 21, 1998 (08:28)", "body": "What was your dream?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (16:30)", "body": "I don't think I've ever actually died in a dream... I've fallen, been in wrecks and accidents, out of control and beyond reach... but not dead. *knock on that superstitious piece of driftwood*"}, {"response": 8, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (17:21)", "body": "have had dreams where i was already dead. don't think you lose anything but the shell you are living in. your soul is what goes on. so, yes, death must be worse for the folks who are left behind. but still, death evokes images of such horror, mostly the dying part, not after."}, {"response": 9, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (18:17)", "body": "You're right. I once dreamt I got shot in the head (after managing to shoot myself in the foot while target shooting with my airgun!). I remember seeing the bullet fly towards my eyes, and the sheer terror at the thought that in less than a second I'd be dead. And then it hit me, and there was nothing. No pain. Just that pleasant floating feeling that one gets while falling asleep. I still woke up in cold sweat though; just the superstitions created by seeing people mourn at a deathbed are enough to make me fear death as something terrible. But I think when the moment arrives, it will be quite different. Because then I'll be able to see and face this unknown force - just to see the source, to know what I fear lessens the fear for me. And I suspect it will be far less dramatic than one thinks."}, {"response": 10, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jun 24, 1998 (18:17)", "body": "i was shot, too. also in the head, as it happens. all i remember is it being a big shock, and it being *so* black. inescapable blackness."}, {"response": 11, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (04:22)", "body": "Hmm, not very pleasant. Still I think the drama of death is overrated."}, {"response": 12, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (23:53)", "body": "Death dreams about myself are unsettling, but those about my loved ones are devastating."}, {"response": 13, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Jul  4, 1998 (23:58)", "body": "those are horrible, you really think it happened too, you know?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (01:16)", "body": "You're right - they are devastating. I also find it very painful when I dream that my grandfather is still alive, and then when I wake up having to return to the reality of him having been dead for nearly ten years already, and being so far away from where he lived. Wish one didn't have to dream things like that."}, {"response": 15, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (22:48)", "body": "I've had those reverse dreams, too, about my grandmother; I always attributed it to the fact that we were in Europe when she died and I never even knew about it. When my mom picked me up at the airport, she told us--it was fait accompli. I never got to mourn or say good-bye or anything. For a long time I would actually forget she was dead for a while. She seems so alive in my dreams that I just lie there and have a good cry when I awaken."}, {"response": 16, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Jul  5, 1998 (22:52)", "body": "autumn, i always ask the dead to come visit in my dreams. this way i know they're alright. funny, but i lost a dog and cat. it tore me up so i asked to dream about them. you know, they were so happy! (the dog, i had to put down, and i was feeling really guilty). also, a co-worker of mine passed away and he has visited too. it may just be my mind helping to ease my suffering, but i believe in it!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (00:17)", "body": "Maybe if I took this approach it would be less unsettling and actually fulfilling. At least it might give me some closure. I will definitely try it, Wolf."}, {"response": 18, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul  6, 1998 (01:19)", "body": "I watched as my granddad died - that was more than all the closure I could handle. I hate waking up and he's still dead."}, {"response": 19, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (02:12)", "body": "I have never been able to attend a relative's funeral, etc... no idea how I'll take it when the \"opportunity\" arises..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (04:16)", "body": "With great caution. I've only been to my grandfather's funeral, and it was ghastly. Relatives of whose existence I had not even been aware of before that, descending, discussing what they were going to get as they stood around his grave wiping away their crocodile tears. I remember wishing they would all be struck as dead as he was by lightning. Horrible business. Never again. And I want to be cremated someday. None of that for me."}, {"response": 21, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (21:04)", "body": "i've never been to a funeral, either. can't say i've ever had the chance, or the desire."}, {"response": 22, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (21:49)", "body": "the only funeral i've been to was my grandmother's and i couldn't stand it. i was a preteen and everybody was bawling. i hated the way she looked in the casket. not that i haven't the opportunity to attend others, they do nothing for me (except make me feel terrible), it won't bring them back; however, other people have made it their job to tell me how horrible it is that i won't attend. hell, when i make that move, i want everyone to have a wake, and not sit around fussing about me (i've always hated big to-do's)"}, {"response": 23, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (23:06)", "body": "I've been to more than I can count, and there's something exhilaratingly emotional about them. I don't find them particularly gruesome or ghoulish; it's just the final step in a process and I can honor that."}, {"response": 24, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (00:36)", "body": "I've been to three, two friend's fathers in high school, and one co-worker's...just not to any for members of my family"}, {"response": 25, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (10:45)", "body": "please knock on some wood *knocking on wood*"}, {"response": 26, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (15:25)", "body": "when i was nine years old i was 9 years old and i went to my friend's dad's funeral didn't know what it was, so i projected stuff about it, felt i had to (y'know how it is sometimes, right?) i saw people in front of me walkin up to him and it seemed like they were talkin to him so when i got to the open casket, i thought i was supposed to talk to him while Doug, my other friend, was kicking my leg, i offered my friend's father my jacket (what's it called?: when you wear a suit, and it's the outer jacket part of it---that was the last time i wore a suit) he wasn't wearing anything but a shirt all i was really wanting to do anyway was just make conversation with him i knew he wasn't gonna thank me for the jacket but Doug's mom came up to me when i started to take off my suit jacket she said, \"Jim, wouldn't ya like to talk to Autumn, she's right over there between summer and winter, see her?\"---and she pointed somewhere far away from the casket my friend's dad said, \"so does this mean i have to lie here and freeze, Louise?\" right then, Doug's mom's brain practically fried in two, she fainted straight away and we had to haul her outa there and dump her in the back of the stationwagon my friend's dad drove us home never did lend him my jacket he drove real well for a dead man, but the ride kept makin' me wonder who in the heck that Autumn was....never even got a look at her been to a buncha funerals with Harold and Maude since then and they was purdy fun alright"}, {"response": 27, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (16:59)", "body": "I love Harold and Maud - saw it about ten times.. Don't feel that sense of adventure and weirdness at funerals though."}, {"response": 28, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (21:02)", "body": "I'm confused, but intrigued. I'm obviously missing something obvious here, Jim - please enlighten me :)"}, {"response": 29, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (22:59)", "body": "maybe i'm just too much of a private person when it comes to grief. maybe cuz people tell me not to cry. i'd rather visit the gravesite afterwards, by myself. guess people have their own way of dealing with death. a friend of mine just lost his mother (he is 60-something). it never gets easier. he says it's his turn next (he's had a stroke but still has his mind, people think he can't feel the loss, get real!)"}, {"response": 30, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (23:00)", "body": "(oh, and why do people tell you not to cry?)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (23:06)", "body": "Because they can't handle it."}, {"response": 32, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (23:09)", "body": "that's pretty darned selfish, don't you think?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (23:16)", "body": "Absolutely!!"}, {"response": 34, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (00:53)", "body": "I hate that too. Telling a person how to grief, imagine! And the way they say, well, really it IS better for the person to be dead. Like, in what way?! How can they possibly tell?"}, {"response": 35, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (11:08)", "body": "i always tell my children that those who die are in heaven and never have to worry for anything. these eases it, especially when i had to explain Mr. Mac's mother's death (my 60 year old friend). You see, Mr. Mac is cared for by my children's sitter, and they are very close to him. They were so sweet to him yesterday. I clipped a rose from my garden and gave it to the kids. They hugged and kissed Mr. Mac and he just loved the rose. He carried it around with him. they asked me why people die and i told them because God needed them to do something important. try to be truthful without scaring them, you know?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (14:40)", "body": "many times a man lives and dies between his two eternities that of race and that of soul and ancient ireland knew it all. whether a man dies in bed or whether the rifle knocks him dead a brief parting from those dear is the only thing he has to fear. and though gravedigger's toil is long sharp his spade, his muscles strong he but thrusts his buried men back, in the Human Mind, again... (william yeats) believe this to be true... and that is enough, for me..."}, {"response": 37, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (15:08)", "body": "Yes, that I understand, Wolf. I think we SHOULD try to make it a little easier on our children."}, {"response": 38, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (16:17)", "body": "Could it be that the most powerful force that people give themselves to is the need for security? Aren't there many things that give people security? Things like: self-esteem boosting, ambition, so-called love, aggression toward others, conceitedness, arrogance, habitual ways of thinking about things, rituals, friends, money, creative endeavors, accomplishing a feat, addictions, passing joys, depression, beliefs, ideals, tv, telephone conversations, righteousness, anxiety that feels right, posing, attention, ego, selfishness, clothes that impress us, houses and cars that impress us, competition, standards....and doesn't the list go on and on to include anything and everything that we can turn into fulfilling our need for psychological security? What is really going on inside grief? There is loss, right? And what is that loss based on? Isn't it primarily or entirely rooted in how it feels to not have what we're used to having? Do we care about the person who is gone at all, or do we care about how that loss affects us? Isn't it really that psychologically we feel less secure now with the loss, and that what we are really grieving isn't the dead, but how we don't have what we are so used to and dependent upon? Have you ever thought that maybe the mind, in its deepest reaches, is unable to handle that loss to its security, so it experiences the corresponding shock, sorrow, as well as the need to express emotion in a way that completely covers up the self-centered internal conditions that are controlling the whole grief reaction? Do you see insecurity as a powerful energy provider that manifests itself in terms of a self-protective need to not look like what it is, so that it can get the ideal satisfaction it is pursuing, by hiding the true motive? Don't the good thoughts we think about the dead give us a better feeling about ourselves? And aren't those good thoughts deeply concerned with and designed to flush out insecurity with a replacement helping of security? Wouldn't the ennobling quality of the good thoughts make us feel more secure that we are doing the right thing? How much are these good thoughts of the dead conditioned into us by environmental influences and by the way each person takes their conditioning and elaborates on it? If insecurity (from loss of the dead) is too difficult to face and stay with, wouldn't we turn to remedies available that deal with that insecurity and that appeal to us and make sense to us? I'm not saying to suppress anger, but I would like to ask each of us to consider the possible unintended negative consequences of using anger as a means to express or voice our responses---isn't there a better alternative that is much more effective?---couldn't we go into this matter by sharing in a dialogue that is truly intent on exploring together as a group the underlying factors that go into grief, loss, our reactions to death?---couldn't we move into a real desire to not want to upset the person who may have upset us, thus minimizing the potential for escalating distortions, projections, fractional factional frictions? we see how republicans bond with each other in loyal partisan resistance and how the democrats do the same in the house and senate---couldn't we step out of that absurdity? there is already enough conflict in just having a different point of view, isn't there? so can we talk these things out with a genuinely courteous consideration for the other person's view? not just here, but in all topics? i thought i'd attempt to keep fresh some well-meaning preventive measures for us to proceed with, just for in case there is something constructive in that itself....while also hoping this doesn't provoke or incite a kind of reverse-psychology backlash of who knows what proportions...."}, {"response": 39, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (16:54)", "body": "been to a few funerals. first being an old boyfriend's grandmother's funeral. Sophie. I really liked this old woman but it didn't seem right to cry because she had been dying of cancer for years and really wanted to stop hurting. Brian cried. But only because he missed her not because he begrudged her and end to her suffering in that dilapidated old body. I cried at my Aunt Lenora's funeral. I cried because I would miss her and all her Italian swearing (and cooking) but you know what... that trip to her funeral (in Ohio) was the first time my whole family had been on a 'vacation' together in a long time. We all got along and I got to meet a bazillion relatives I'd never met before. And hear about Italy. several years later (after the funeral)I broke into tears for no apparent (to anyone else) reason. I missed her again. If the funeral is the 'first step' in a grieving process... well, the process just seems to take a really long time. Where is the process supposed to end anyway. It's not like all of a sudden that proverbial place in your heart will be all full and that person will (for all intents and purposes) be absent from your thoughts forever..."}, {"response": 40, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (17:25)", "body": "I don't think it ever really ends. The only big loss I have ever suffered, was with my grandpa. We used to spend wonderful months on end on the farm when things were shitty at my parents' house, and it made all the difference in the world to all three our lives, I think. Then he died when Sonja and I were fifteen, and Douw was nine. It was more or less the end of our 'world' - the secure and comfortable, happy part of our world anyway. So in a way you are right, I think, Jim. But I think we grief for alot more than just the loss of the security, the loss of someone upon whose love you were dependent for so long. It is a grief that changes, but never truly wears off, and although it may at first appear to someone who analyses these things as carefully as you do (and this is the first time I have ever really thought about grief in such 'deep' terms, I have to admit). At first the brutality with which the sorrow and sense of loss hits you is so strong that the dead person almost dissappears - or that is how I felt at the time anyway. All you can think of is, what now, where to, how will you continue living with this big chunk of security ripped out of your existence? Like being hit by a freight train - you lie there, broken to bits, you scream inwardly with pain, but you're too hurt to cry out, and yet you are unbearably alive. And yet it is also unreal. Then comes the funeral. You see the box, and suddenly the person is back. You think of his body lying in there, still, a body that used to gather you up in working arms, a body that pressed against yours when you were afraid, a body with hands that once stroked your hair and fingers that used to touch your cheek in passing. And you think of how this same body is going to be eaten away by worms. You know it is irrational, but you can't help it. But that's when you realize it isn't a dream, it is for real, you have no choice but to carry on. And it stays real for as long as you live. It changes, but the fact of it remains unfadingly. The grieving for the person, I think comes only years after when the storms have settled, and calm set in. Then you start missing without thinking of yourself. You don't need that person anymore, you cannot even imagine your life with him in it anymore, you are at peace with the fact of his death, yet even little things make you remember the person. Sometimes they make you smile, sometimes you cry. And I think that it is through this kind of 'missing' that we honour the memory of them, not that of the first years. I'm probably just rambling again over things that only affect me. I apologize."}, {"response": 41, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (22:18)", "body": "no, don't apologize. i agree that at first it's a selfish kind of grieving. why didn't i do this, or that. when my grandpa died (actually just a few years ago), i cried a bit. but mainly because i was sorry i didn't write to him more often. i cried because he wouldn't get to see his birthday that year. but over the years i think that he's somewhere watching everything. i don't know where souls go to wait (i'm not catholic, but i imagine it may be a place like pergutory). but i like to think they're around us anyway, and i don't think it's so much for me, but for them too. (i didn't know my grandpa very well, but loved him the same). but my oma and opa. i have a recent photo of them and it hurts me so much to see them change. for some reason, i feel very close to them (maybe because as a child, i was in Germany off and on and visited with them quite frequently). some of it is selfish, most of it is selfish. i love them so much. i don't think anyone should rush the grieving process. everyone has their own way of dealing with it. don't question why you still cry, stacey, at least you know that they are not lost to you....maybe i'm strange but i grieve before someone dies. thinking about people close to me passing on, makes me cry. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 3, "subject": "Wisdom...What is it?", "response_count": 190, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "donnal", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (17:12)", "body": "Wisdom: a way of seeing ourselves and our world that ... hmmm let me think some more about that."}, {"response": 2, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (18:26)", "body": "wisdom is not easy to define. perhaps it cannot be defined at all. Lao Tsu is said to have written: \"The tao (way) that can be told is not the enternal Tao (Way). The name that can be named is not the eternal Name....\""}, {"response": 3, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (19:10)", "body": "Hmmm... Afraid I must hold with Waldo: \"The wise- through excess of wisdom- are made fools.\" (or something like that) And- along the lines of another thought Waldo held- if consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, might Wisdom be described as that of the intellectually myopic? What I mean is, are men even capable of recognising genuine wisdom, or truth, much less holding it? The older I become, the more such things seem to be ignis fatuus..."}, {"response": 4, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 10, 1997 (19:50)", "body": "The older I get, the less I seem to know. Socrates -- for all his faults -- started out believing that the only wisdom he really had was \"knowing that he did not know.\" Plato even suggested that people where not even ready to \"do\" philosophy until they past the age of 40. It does take a little while to realize how little we know. So what is the value of such consideration in the first place?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (18:25)", "body": "I found Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha's words interesting when he said wisdom is not communicable. The wisdom which a wise man tries to communicate always sound foolish; knowledge can be communicated but not wisdom."}, {"response": 6, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (19:29)", "body": "Perhaps, it is like being a young child who cannot talk, but can point with its finger at something. Only with wisdom, that which is being pointed at has no specific words that \"say it.\" What is the sound of one hand clapping?????????? P.S. I love Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha."}, {"response": 7, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 11, 1997 (19:36)", "body": "I look forward to rereading it someday."}, {"response": 8, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (10:40)", "body": "Wisdom is knowing enough to abstaing when you know you really have no idea what is the question, nevermind the answer."}, {"response": 9, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (12:11)", "body": "So, perhaps, _not-doing_ is an aspect of wisdom.?.?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (12:25)", "body": "Knowing when to and when not to."}, {"response": 11, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (20:04)", "body": "This \"knowing\" must be a different kind of knowing from the kind of knowing that we have, say, of when someone is in this room?.. yes...no?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Nov 12, 1997 (21:33)", "body": "Is there someone in this room? (just wondering)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Nov 13, 1997 (03:01)", "body": "To paraphrase David St. Hubbins, I believe, basically everything I read (it makes me a wiser, more aware and discerning person than one that believes in nothing, or only some. Of what he reads, I mean)..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Nov 13, 1997 (09:33)", "body": "Often I believe what others say is their own truth, not necessarily mine -- does that count as believing or not, IYO?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Nov 14, 1997 (17:38)", "body": "I see that we are starting to come to the question of \"truth\" -- I think I will open a topic for that, now."}, {"response": 17, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (09:35)", "body": "Wisdom: Knowledged gained through experience. And the definition doesn't discount those who are \"wise beyond their years.\" Often one may take another's experience and garner knowledge from it leading to furthering his own wisdom."}, {"response": 18, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (12:39)", "body": "Yes. Yes. Actually, I somethings think that some of my children were just born wise. Then, later, they \"forget\" their wisdom."}, {"response": 20, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "Well, I don't think they had any knowledge yet. Perhaps, the wisdom they had got covered up with knowledge. I sometime say, that we must forget our \"knowledge\" in order to get back our wisdom. Wisdom is a higher order of integration than knowledge. By the time we have \"knowledge\" we are already broken into fragments. (Man...Am I making any sense any longer????)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (17:55)", "body": ""}, {"response": 22, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (12:40)", "body": "Who is willing to spout their 'thoughts on wisdom' when those thoughts are not so popular? How much do we miss out on when our own minds will not even consider big changes? Why couldn't the contemporaries of Leonardo listen and learn, and where would we be now if they (we) had listened? What is it we fear about big changes? Perhaps we do not want to let go of what we feel secure in. Maybe that is why humanities social structure changes sooooo slowly."}, {"response": 23, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (13:34)", "body": "Well....Steven....I think the answer to your question is that it seems that most \"big changes\" just lead to choas. And, choas is not a pleasant thing. One needs peace of mind, rest. Resistance to change may just be an expression of the desire for peace of mind and rest. Change, by itself, is not a good thing."}, {"response": 24, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (18:44)", "body": "\"wisdom is age, there are no old fools\""}, {"response": 25, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (18:51)", "body": "sometimes i hear that it is difficult to tell a wise person from a fool. sometimes the most foolish thing we could do might just really be the wisest thing in the end."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Tue, Dec  2, 1997 (11:56)", "body": "Someone was hung on a cross for just that."}, {"response": 27, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec  2, 1997 (20:06)", "body": "Yep."}, {"response": 28, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Tue, Dec  2, 1997 (21:11)", "body": "Americ said; And, choas is not a pleasant thing. One needs peace of mind, rest. People can change real fast when everything is changing in the right direction (relative). It can even be chaotic and they don't mind.... Its the fear of quick change in the negative direction that makes us such scaredy cats. (How do you spell that anyway?). Its sort of like having to let go of everything again, to get ready for the next event. Maybe we are afraid of letting go of that 'old stuff' again."}, {"response": 29, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Tue, Dec  2, 1997 (21:28)", "body": "We, as a, so called \"civilized society\", live in fear of changes. Fear is a insecurity one has with oneself. So therefor we conform. Conformity can be good, but most of the time it works against a person. No longer does he or she act on implulse. A wise man or woman acts with truth and harmony to others. They will be rejected by people. But that comes with the territory."}, {"response": 30, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Wed, Dec  3, 1997 (11:05)", "body": "Yeshe What happens when your truth is not someone else's harmony? Do you still express? Or do you hold your truth in judgement as non-expressible?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Wed, Dec  3, 1997 (22:00)", "body": "Complete truth in time shall be expressed in fullness... If that makes any sense?????"}, {"response": 32, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (10:27)", "body": "Yeshe, I understand what you said. How long are you going to wait? Seems like if you wait long enough, it will never happen. I don't mean to rush you though."}, {"response": 33, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (14:11)", "body": "Steven -- Waiting/not-waiting. Not-doing/doing. Not always clear what the difference is. If one pushes too hard -- the universe sometimes comes back and just pushes back. Sometimes, doing-nothing, waiting, does everything in the fullness of time ."}, {"response": 34, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (15:31)", "body": "100% agreement on that Americ. But when the time is right... do we always speak/do? That is our/your dilemna? Harmony between you and the rest of yourself. When the soul speaks/does,.. so does Americ. And when the soul is quiet, Americ just relaxes. My views, The only way I know to get better and better at that is by staying in the heart, and out of the head (old paradigms there). Then letting go of fears. So when the soul wants to play a part, I don't dismiss it as an 'inappropriate thought'. Sometimes, ego created laws, rules, ethics, morals etc.. Created for the purpose of keeping our fears out of sight (ineffectively), get in the way of doing/speaking. It's difficult to find your fears, when the 'utopian world' won't show them to you. Well engineered personal and global armegeddons seem to work well."}, {"response": 35, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (19:28)", "body": "Well said, Steven."}, {"response": 36, "author": "Reflous", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (21:02)", "body": "Staying in your heart, as you put it, and out of your head to improve yourself and to let go of fear, seems to be a paradox. What is the heart? I assume you are using the heart to describe gut feelings, emotions, and instinct. Fear is an intregal part of these things and thus your heart, are they not? It would seem easier to use your emotionless head to lead you in rational decisions than your heart. What about anger in the heart? Anger is apart from fear and is from your heart. Without the guidence of the \"head\" or intellect what is to stop you, or ME, from killing someone? Have you never had a fit of rage so violent murder seemed to be a viable option? I have. But it was my intellect which prevented this while my whole heart wanted nothing but blood. So is it trully best to listen to the heart and ignore the head? By guiding my behavior with laws and ethics I am neither ignoring my emotions or masking my fear. My intellect can pursue my emotions without action (such as murder) and only in thought, safely (for other humans). So if a world of lawlessness lead by the heart is what you seek, lets bring on the anarchy and divulge in the bloodfest, perhaps you will obstain from it, but I surely will not. Personally, I vote for \"head\" ethics. --I'm new here, hello everyone. Jon"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (22:18)", "body": "Hello Jon, and welcome to our little philosophy corner! I think there is a semantic problem? The 'Heart' as some use it is really just a focal point. It is also called by some \"the center'. The place is just behind the breastbone. If you will feel in that area (not visualize), you will pull your 'awareness' out of your head. When successful, and it does take practice, you won't now what is going on in your head, because you won't be there. ( After a time, you might here a voice, or see a picture from that place. It is sometimes called the phone jack of the soul. Though techies give it a URL. Need more info?"}, {"response": 39, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (00:22)", "body": "wer, you're starting to worry me... are you okay?"}, {"response": 41, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (00:38)", "body": "that's a loaded question, too... usually begins with a lady... catharsis can be a tricky thing, though... must be able to accept it as it is..."}, {"response": 42, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (17:50)", "body": "just listening..."}, {"response": 44, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (23:49)", "body": "by all means..."}, {"response": 45, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (10:11)", "body": "not feeling exceptionally wise today actually. But I am feeling good: in control, and headed in positive directions. Sometimes its not what you know or who you know... its when you know."}, {"response": 46, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (14:25)", "body": "today...i am feeling under the whether.... so i don't think."}, {"response": 47, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (18:15)", "body": "hope you feel better soon. I know the weather here is pretty durn low. Snow, snow, and more snow with no sunshine (a rarity for Colorado)"}, {"response": 48, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (11:26)", "body": "Americ Sometimes big changes in life require the body to shut down a little. Could be its just change."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (22:05)", "body": "think that wisdom comes into play when one knows when to follow the heart and when to follow the head."}, {"response": 50, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (22:27)", "body": "hmmm... there are other imperatives, you know... (and sometimes wisdom is no more than recoginizing one's own fallability) (and knowing, too, when it's time to get the hell out of Dodge...nowhutimean?)"}, {"response": 51, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (22:29)", "body": "isn't that what i said? but, haven't lived as long as you =O"}, {"response": 52, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (22:43)", "body": "nor are you likely to, my sweet..."}, {"response": 53, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (22:47)", "body": "Yikes!"}, {"response": 54, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (16:03)", "body": "Wisdom is when the heart and the mind are in complete harmony with one another."}, {"response": 55, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:28)", "body": "Yes...Yeshe...I agree with you When my mind and heart are in complete harmony That seems to be wisdom for me these days This is what I have always wanted the most all my life"}, {"response": 56, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Dec 13, 1997 (12:21)", "body": "Don't think it can be labeled, It is much more than wisdom isn't it?"}, {"response": 57, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Dec 14, 1997 (22:34)", "body": "Yes. No words for it."}, {"response": 58, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (16:46)", "body": "Sort of tells us that the really interesting aspects of life have been experienced so rarely, that no words have been put to them yet. At least not in our culture. Maybe new ideas,words and dissapearing concepts of duality will change our language,"}, {"response": 59, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (19:15)", "body": "Maybe we need to keep on creating new languages as our experiences get deeper. That has been one of my interests in Sanskrit over the years. It has a powerful set of words for states of mind/spirit."}, {"response": 60, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (20:51)", "body": "give us a sample"}, {"response": 61, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (20:25)", "body": "om tat sat Could mean: \"you are that\" or \"I am that\" or \"God is THAT.\" or \"This is it.\" We could spend days on this one.. We could even create a topic around it."}, {"response": 62, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (13:10)", "body": "Could mean all of the above in an integrated sense."}, {"response": 63, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (00:40)", "body": "Yes. I think you are on the money, Steve. (and ... Steve, ...is that Octagon spa still out there in Rimrock?)"}, {"response": 64, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (11:16)", "body": "It is as eternal as experience itself. But, still isn't hooked up. bummer huh. We have more complaints about that...."}, {"response": 65, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (15:43)", "body": "Sorry to here that. Perhaps, we did fail, and I include myself, to built true community. It requires far more wisdom than I have to help make that happen. IT seems like grace to me when it happens."}, {"response": 66, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (11:20)", "body": "Wisdom, I like how Athena was born from Zeus's head whole and complete thereby signifying age and a wealth of knowledge. But I also like the idea of the fear of God in the hebrew texts being the beginning of wisdom, the awe in the omniscince of a God, for ever, I think meditation is therefore a key to wisdom, such as what philosphy means love of wisdom and philosophy takes part in discourses."}, {"response": 67, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Jan  3, 1998 (00:48)", "body": "Yes...I find most of my own wisdom these days in lots of quiet time. And, I find myself saying less and less as time goes on. \"Be still and know...\" it is written."}, {"response": 68, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (01:03)", "body": "When you are still and know you can observe everything as it really is, true reality. Knowing what true reality is and seeing it, brings wisdom. AT MOMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!"}, {"response": 69, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (03:07)", "body": "the very idea of being acquainted with any \"true reality\" is frightening as hell..."}, {"response": 71, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (13:19)", "body": "Why thank you, you are very kind !!! Reality is very scary. But we must face it in oder to accomplish the things that we dream and hope for in life. It can be frightening at times and at other times it is wonderful."}, {"response": 72, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (14:38)", "body": "as often as i've said- and others, too- \"poetry is truth\"- (and it ought to be)- what truth can any man know? images of life, filtered through prejudice and expectation; musings of death- colored by fear (and very practical implications). and love- is (even) love a truth? can it ever really be? it is not a proveable thing- a plaintive sigh, a catch of breath- ephemeral, at best... but that is the thing- the crux of it, well proved- every thing a man holds true vanishes, in the end as it had never been... (i think that's reality)"}, {"response": 74, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:06)", "body": "Do you think she was right?"}, {"response": 76, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:25)", "body": "What does matter?"}, {"response": 78, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:43)", "body": "Nick that is a beatiful poem. And I agree poerty can say so much with such little words. And a comment about the end of the poem that everything true to man vanishes, this is quite true. LIfe works in cycles. What may be true to you today may be just a false thought tomorrow."}, {"response": 79, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (23:14)", "body": "the thing is, though, that's all you can really count on... you can fill your life with whatever you wish, love whatever, whomever you wish, attempt to achieve the same- and all you can really count on is that you can't count on anything, for very long, before it dies... and i'm not saying that necessarily detracts from everything else- and there is much, of course- it's just that it colors everything, enough, as it is..."}, {"response": 80, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (23:22)", "body": "Nick, this is off the topic, but why do your posts always read as short little sentences?"}, {"response": 81, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (23:37)", "body": "hmmm.. not sure what you mean, autumn... you sure about that? (lol!) (i dunno... maybe it's like a diminished-capacity kind of thing...)"}, {"response": 82, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Jan 20, 1998 (20:15)", "body": "OK you little smart-ass computer geek, I'll figure it out myself! (eventually)"}, {"response": 84, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Jan 21, 1998 (09:31)", "body": "I have been spending more time in silance since the holidays. A great thing to \"do\". We get flashes of our true nature below the surface of all the passing things."}, {"response": 85, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Wed, Jan 21, 1998 (12:01)", "body": "The true essence of one's soul will always be the same."}, {"response": 86, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:29)", "body": "If the 'true essence' will always be the same... do you believe in fate? destiny? that an individual (or his soul) can be 'bad' as opposed to good?"}, {"response": 88, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jan 23, 1998 (09:08)", "body": "*throwing question out again*"}, {"response": 89, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jan 23, 1998 (09:10)", "body": "*still dodging* Hiya, sweetie, we're on at the same time!!!"}, {"response": 90, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jan 26, 1998 (09:33)", "body": "damn, I guess I just missed you last week. Howya been?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Mon, Jan 26, 1998 (15:37)", "body": "I do believe in fate and destiny. No soul is born evil. But we are humans not saints. We must over come fate to accomplish our destiny."}, {"response": 93, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jan 26, 1998 (17:15)", "body": "overcome fate to accomplish our destiny... Sheesh! Yeshe, that's pretty heavy."}, {"response": 94, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Wed, Jan 28, 1998 (16:06)", "body": "Ain't it though. There is no way in avoiding our fate. It happens and we get over it. What ever it may be. We benefit from our suffering."}, {"response": 95, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jan 28, 1998 (16:46)", "body": "the old \"what doesn't kill us makes us stronger\" approach? I believe that's different from overcoming fate but a difficult proposition in its own right."}, {"response": 96, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Jan 28, 1998 (17:07)", "body": "i guess that is true, and beautiful in it's way (the \"high and solitary and most stern\" beauty attached to things we cannot change)... but it really really sucks..."}, {"response": 97, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jan 28, 1998 (17:16)", "body": "*smile*"}, {"response": 98, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Thu, Jan 29, 1998 (17:04)", "body": "Life is beautiful."}, {"response": 99, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (15:43)", "body": "Life is awesome, too."}, {"response": 100, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Jan 30, 1998 (21:01)", "body": "miraculous! (ok, got my two cents in *giggle*)"}, {"response": 101, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (14:13)", "body": "The thing is that we keep \"forgetting\" the wonder of existence and awareness over and over again. So we constantly need to remember ."}, {"response": 102, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (14:52)", "body": "don't mean to sound arbitrary, but that is wholly a matter of perspective... owing entirely to our lack of understanding... what i'm saying is, isn't \"wonder\" an inevitable casualty of introspection? doesn't it kind of wear off, as we become inured to what we (believe we) understand? (maybe it's just me, but i rarely feel that anymore)"}, {"response": 103, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Feb  1, 1998 (17:44)", "body": "nick, I would agree that \"the wonder of existence\" is purely a matter of perspective and a phrase often used to conjure up emotions of 'not understanding' so we may sit back in wonderment on the same note, different tone... I spent the day hiking alone off Mt. Falcon with a borrowed camera. We received several inches of snow last night but the sun was bright and the wind calm. As is often the case, I soon forgot about picture taking and wandered off into my own little existence... and was grateful if not amazed. *centered smile*"}, {"response": 105, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Feb  3, 1998 (17:39)", "body": "the soul is the bottom line, it's what we do with the messages it tells us. but as for wisdom? don't know where mine went, lost it today......"}, {"response": 107, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Feb  4, 1998 (23:44)", "body": "\"...what help is here? there is no help, and all these things are so: and all the world is bitter as a tear. And how these things are, though ye strove to show- she would not know...\" (swinburne) (i dunno, it just popped in my head)"}, {"response": 109, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (00:52)", "body": "no, we're just worried about you... lately, it's just seemed a little deeper, maybe, than melancholia... just wanta be sure you're okay..."}, {"response": 112, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (11:06)", "body": "ah... the Indigo girls. \u001b[Bglad you're on the road to typical abnormalcy, WER! Lemme know when you need that Rocky Mountain High..."}, {"response": 114, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (16:55)", "body": "Think we all get a bit like that wer. Especially when we think things aren't going the right way (at least what we would like to see). Since I'm a leaper, let me offer this, always wear a parachute! *wink* Don't jump until you know all the particulars (like wind, elevation, landing site, and when to pull the cord)......."}, {"response": 115, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (17:02)", "body": "good advice however, I tend to respond more rashly. at least I'm not prone to leaping out of high flying situations. Mine is more of a get in the car and see how many state lines you can cross before you have to stop for another Big Gulp"}, {"response": 116, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (20:27)", "body": "well, wer, if you try stacey's way, wear a seatbelt, have plenty of gas, and plenty of bills (NTM, rest areas!) (Stacey, i don't mean literally leap-can't figure out why folks wanna jump from perfectly good airplanes)"}, {"response": 117, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (20:31)", "body": "Can't imagine wanting to bring that kind of chaos into your life...."}, {"response": 118, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (20:43)", "body": "Have had those urges to get in the car and go. Thank goodness my job sends me to school twice a year. Love the drive (not being in the car that long) just being able to drive and stop when I want, listen to what I want, have the windows all rolled down and singing at the top of my lungs!!"}, {"response": 119, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (20:49)", "body": "What kind of work do you do? What kind of training do they send you to--and where?"}, {"response": 120, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (21:09)", "body": "(chaos is what's real though, don't you think? everything else a carefully manipulated illusion... perhaps the thing to do is learn to, i dunno, appreciate it... like, go with it... or don't... i dunno...)"}, {"response": 121, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (21:24)", "body": "government contracting, Autumn. Since the field is constantly changing, I go to classes on a regular basis. March will be Norfolk Virginia. hi nick"}, {"response": 122, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (21:36)", "body": "hi... what's doin'?"}, {"response": 123, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (21:57)", "body": "nut'in honey.....you?"}, {"response": 124, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (22:06)", "body": "uhhh... i be chillin'... (velvet underground...\"jesus\")"}, {"response": 125, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Feb  5, 1998 (22:07)", "body": "i be's sleepy. changed some stuff at my site, go and check it out, y'all....."}, {"response": 127, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (12:42)", "body": "almost left last night and, from previous experience, when things get THAT bad they either get much better or I leave. we're working on much better this morning. I took your advice (general comment) nick, and let it all out. Nothing saved, nothing reserved, this is how I feel. And oh my..."}, {"response": 128, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (14:58)", "body": "(sigh... i hope that's good)"}, {"response": 129, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (17:31)", "body": "yeah... kinda like scrubbing the gravel out of a road rash wound... gotta be done and you'll feel better for it in... (a couple of weeks?)"}, {"response": 130, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:28)", "body": "excellent analogy... to be willing to endure that scrubbing is indicative of love, or high character (or both)... either of which elicit envy, 'cause i've not yet been willing/able/ whatever to sit through it... couple of weeks seems a small price to pay, i guess (though that's easy to say... the gravel's not imbedded in me)... godspeed to you, ms vura... hope you come out of the other side of this thing soon...)"}, {"response": 131, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:32)", "body": "hi"}, {"response": 132, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:37)", "body": "(you say that now...)"}, {"response": 133, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:39)", "body": "(yeah, what're you hiding behind your back?)"}, {"response": 134, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:49)", "body": "(everything i can)"}, {"response": 135, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Fri, Feb  6, 1998 (19:58)", "body": "heehee"}, {"response": 136, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Feb  8, 1998 (21:07)", "body": "thanks nick. for the kind words and kind thoughts."}, {"response": 137, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Feb  8, 1998 (22:23)", "body": "(any time)"}, {"response": 138, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (05:05)", "body": "HI! My name is Ri\ufffdtte - I've only been going in to the Bront\ufffd conference, but I enjoy outrageous philosophical talk, so here's my opinion on wisdom: It can simply not exist. I think wisdom has a great deal to do with honesty with oneself, and this honesty is a very inconsistent character trait in even the best of people. Wisdom must therefore be an illusion, created by those who speak great words, and seem authorotative, who drown their ignorance in impressive words and gestures, thereby having their ignorance seem wise judgement to others. Honesty can exist some of the time if we accept the challenge it presents, but wisdom is beyond our human capabilities."}, {"response": 139, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (08:46)", "body": "i like the view that wisdom has a great deal to do with honesty with oneself but i disagree about it being a very inconsistent character trait. it is a character trait that one must work hard to strive for but it is aattainable. perhaps striving for that trait has something to do with becoming a wise person."}, {"response": 140, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (10:39)", "body": "in some circles, Riette, your pronouncement on wisdom above would itself be considered wise..."}, {"response": 141, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (14:07)", "body": "My first response is to Ray: Ray, are you honest with yourself all the time? If you are, I hereby declare that you must be an angel or some other kind of unwordly creature. I too strive for honesty, and though I am honest with others - because I dread my being found false and perfidious by others, I am far too human to be honest with myself all the time. Therefore I posess no wisdom."}, {"response": 142, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (14:09)", "body": "TO Wer: If you happen to be one of those who might consider my pronouncement on wisdom wise, then I am sure that all I have written, and all you have written in response is merely a fragment of your imagination . . ."}, {"response": 143, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (22:50)", "body": "no, i'm not honest with myself all the time. but, i try, and i think about it all the time, and i think i know most of the times when i am *not* being honest with myself. the contemplative life is the wise life."}, {"response": 144, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (23:30)", "body": "inre #142: that's as valid a belief as any other... now if I could just get everyone who believes that I exist to stop, I might get caught up on my sleep..."}, {"response": 145, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (02:41)", "body": "You guys have to stop 'coming' two at a time . . . you flatter me, and I don't like flattery - there's another topic for discussion; I shall go open it. Anyway, Ray, I admire you your contemplative life, but it merely proves you to be a good and virtuous person, not neccessarily wise. A question: Are you honest because you enjoy it (which is essentially against our human nature) or because you want to plant your mind above injuries? Be honest with yourself now . . . WER, some persons, when something is beyond their reach will present the matter in an impertinent or curious light, and so would have their ignorance seem wise judgement . . ."}, {"response": 146, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (21:33)", "body": "I am wise enough to know that there are times when it does not behoove me to be honest with myself."}, {"response": 147, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (22:02)", "body": "excellent point..."}, {"response": 148, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (00:53)", "body": "You mean you are sensible enough . . ."}, {"response": 149, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (11:33)", "body": "What is wise and what is sensible is often the same, no?"}, {"response": 150, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (12:43)", "body": "Uh-Uh. What is sensible and rational is often the same. There is no such thing as wisdom, remember?"}, {"response": 151, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (17:27)", "body": "Oh, that's your reality....or doesn't that exist, either?"}, {"response": 152, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (00:19)", "body": "SURE it does - but I'm not wise enough to prove it. How do you define wisdom, Autumn? Great thoughts, great words/deeds?"}, {"response": 153, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (18:44)", "body": "Following my intuition."}, {"response": 154, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (01:08)", "body": "Sounds good . . . in theory. I can more or less believe that following their intuition can work for some people - and you sound a sensible one. Frankly, my intuition frightens me! I tend to rely on what the head says - and even that turns out to be a disasterous decision at times!"}, {"response": 155, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (21:57)", "body": "Wow--you can't rely on your reason or your intuition? Bummer!"}, {"response": 156, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (00:49)", "body": "Nope. I try to rely on reason most of the time, but often emotions get in the way. And if I think, ah, perhaps I should now rely on my intuition, the warning signals start flickering in my head, and I switch to auto-pilot - reasoning. I suppose that is why wisdom cannot exist for me - I mean, if one can't even decide when to follow the heart or when to follow the head, then one cannot possiply be wise. Do you always, always rely on your intiution, Autumn? How do you manage it - I mean, how do you know it is 'right'? Or am I too obsessed with what is right and what is wrong?"}, {"response": 157, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (20:12)", "body": "I think I must be a naturally intuitive person and am very atune to auras. I cannot explain the process of knowing what to embrace and what to avoid."}, {"response": 158, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (06:15)", "body": "And so what are the rest of us supposed to do? How do we know when to follow the heart or when to follow the head? How can the mind know when to follow the heart or when to follow itself? I mean, if the mind follows the heart, does this not mean the mind denying itself? And how can the heart follow the mind without abandoning feeling?"}, {"response": 159, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:28)", "body": "compromise."}, {"response": 160, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (12:42)", "body": "You mean doing things halfheartedly and with half a mind??"}, {"response": 161, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (12:43)", "body": "At the same time?"}, {"response": 162, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (12:43)", "body": "no. not at all. do you and Mr. C often agree on everything to the same extent? Do you ever have to bend in one area to be compensated in another. Sometimes you have to use your head to know that it is time to think with your heart. Sometimes, you have to use your heart to really figure out what the result will have on your head. They are too interrelated (in me anyway) to separate fully. I do tend to think with my heart but my head knows that this is my tendency and can step in when disaster strikes."}, {"response": 163, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (12:43)", "body": "I like the way you put that, Stacey."}, {"response": 164, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (00:49)", "body": "Yes, perhaps that's where my problem lies - I tend to draw a clear, straight line between the two, THEREBY denying the one or the other. And therefore often make the wrong decisions. Can't believe I was unable to figure that out for myself - moron! Thanks, Stacey!"}, {"response": 165, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (18:39)", "body": "Your welcome Riette, I think. (glad you're back)"}, {"response": 166, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, May 31, 1998 (00:44)", "body": "Yeah, me too - just feel sorry for the rest of you."}, {"response": 167, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jun  4, 1998 (19:30)", "body": "why would that be, Riette?"}, {"response": 168, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun  5, 1998 (05:37)", "body": "Oh, I don't have to explain, do I, Wer?"}, {"response": 169, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jun  5, 1998 (07:53)", "body": "nope"}, {"response": 170, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jun  5, 1998 (09:16)", "body": "is it wisdom or intuition, or something completely different, that helps us interact with those we care for most? (for if it is either, I am surely lacking)"}, {"response": 171, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun  5, 1998 (10:57)", "body": "Why do you say that, Stacey? You seem to interact with people just fine - or have storm clouds gathered over the Vura-household again? I don't think wisdom plays ANY role in relationships - if it did we'd be sitting in a pit of desperation ALL the time, not just some of the time. I think it must be the very fact that we care that helps us interact - but don't take advice from me please, I'm a real bummer at interacting at the moment, as I think you might have noticed . . ."}, {"response": 172, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jun  5, 1998 (13:34)", "body": "an honest question... and perhaps a storm or two brewing..."}, {"response": 173, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jun  5, 1998 (15:48)", "body": "Well, it happens. Sometimes it just has to. But I'm still sorry to hear that."}, {"response": 174, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (20:22)", "body": "Riette, wisdom plays an important role in any relationship. You have a lot of wisdom. It might be easier for you to understand this, if I give you another name for wisdom: \"Common Sense\". When a person's time comes they have to die! There, THAT is the only thing that HAS to happen. Everything else is changeable."}, {"response": 175, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:20)", "body": "Do you think that it is because everything is so changeable that one is never satisfied with anything?"}, {"response": 176, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:38)", "body": "YES!!! The grass is always greener. By the way the grass is greener works on cattle. If you want them to eat something that they don't particularly like, put it just outside the fence. they will eat it all."}, {"response": 177, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (07:30)", "body": "That is also the best way to ride a donkey. You bind some carrots on a stick, get onto its back, and hold the stick so that the carrots dangle in front of it's nose, but just out of reach. Then you just point the stick to where you want to go, and off you go! It really really works!"}, {"response": 178, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:00)", "body": "Unless the donkey gets mad at you. and decides to get you off his back."}, {"response": 179, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:09)", "body": "That's what happened with my donkey."}, {"response": 180, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:22)", "body": "He only threw you off, because you gave him cooked carrots, Jim!"}, {"response": 181, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (12:33)", "body": "After he threw me off, he came over to me and put his 2 hind hoofs on my chest and started pressing down, so it was hard for me to get these words out, \"Now I feel like a cooked carrot.\" He pooped on me. My face didn't like that. But he left me alone and walked off and away towards Hawaii or North Korea or Netscape."}, {"response": 182, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (01:37)", "body": "Well, may he get blown up by a volcano for doing that! You shouldn't let donkeys DO that to you, Jim. Next time you have to be ready for him! The question is: what will you use for amunition? Remember, this is poop you're up against!"}, {"response": 183, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (11:07)", "body": "down against. wish I coulda gotten up. donkeys sure can put alotta oomph weight on their hind legs. and boy do they move fast when they gotta take a poop. I am glad I didn't have my big fat mouth open at the time."}, {"response": 184, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (11:10)", "body": "Eugh! What a picture. Kick the damn donkey's ar$e! That'll teach him!"}, {"response": 185, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (15:43)", "body": "or get you knee deep in more $hit..."}, {"response": 186, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (01:01)", "body": "Better watch it, Riette, Donkeys kick back."}, {"response": 187, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (06:22)", "body": "I'd rather be kicked that $hite upon!"}, {"response": 188, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (06:23)", "body": "I mean: I'd rather be kicked THAN $hat upon!"}, {"response": 189, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (21:35)", "body": "What about being kicked into the manure, Riette?"}, {"response": 190, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (01:22)", "body": "Nope, that would not appeal. I'll make sure I'm facing a chocolate fountain."}, {"response": 191, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (01:29)", "body": "Riette, just make sure that it is the right kind of chocolate."}, {"response": 192, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (15:33)", "body": "As long as it's sweet, I don't care about right or wrong."}, {"response": 193, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (15:51)", "body": "Ok Riette! let me rephrase that. Make sure that what looks like chocolate, IS."}, {"response": 194, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (00:55)", "body": "Well, I'd HAVE to taste it one way or the other - I'll let myself be surprised!"}, {"response": 195, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (01:12)", "body": "UGH!! What a surprise, Riette!"}, {"response": 196, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (15:00)", "body": "As long as it's a surprise! Won't go for something rough textured - one musn't go LOOKING for $hit! So to speak...."}, {"response": 197, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (15:06)", "body": "Good point, Riette, It pays to have a positive attitude."}, {"response": 198, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (01:35)", "body": "ha-ha! What now? Do you have any philosophy regarding wisdom? Or does wisdom lie in the experimenting with foolish things?"}, {"response": 199, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (01:41)", "body": "WoW what Insight Riette. I do have a belief about wisdom, that it's common sense and the second half of your answer would also apply."}, {"response": 200, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (01:41)", "body": "That despite knowing it's wrong one should try it anyway, just to be sure?"}, {"response": 201, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (01:41)", "body": "Riette, the only thing that is guaranteed not to work, is something that was not tried. sometimes the most ridiculous things work."}, {"response": 202, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (01:37)", "body": "I like that! Next time somebody calls me impulsive, I'll assume he means wise!"}, {"response": 203, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (01:43)", "body": "Well, Riette, you know what they say about assume!!"}, {"response": 204, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (01:09)", "body": "What do they say about assume? You assumed it was a fart, but it turned out solid?"}, {"response": 205, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (01:27)", "body": "Riette, Look!! Assume= ASS U ME"}, {"response": 206, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (11:27)", "body": "I don't DO that, Tim!!! I'll never assume anything ever again if you're going to put it THAT way! I've learned my lesson!"}, {"response": 207, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (11:47)", "body": "Riette, I was only kidding with you. But that is what they say."}, {"response": 208, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (00:29)", "body": "I know! But how true! That's the frightening bit!"}, {"response": 209, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (00:46)", "body": "Well, Riette, I've had it thrown in my face a couple of times. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 30, "subject": "The Couch 2: Electric Bugaloo", "response_count": 188, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (00:47)", "body": "Ooh, it's cold in here!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (01:33)", "body": "man, and I was hoping somebody had moved the new couch into it's own topic... I needed the peace and quiet and comfort of the old one... especially if everyone else was in here breaking in the new one!!!!!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (01:47)", "body": "We were just making it more homely. Perhaps we can get a bunk couch next."}, {"response": 4, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (02:13)", "body": "and the obvious question is: Can I be on top?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (04:19)", "body": "Much as I hate it, I'd have to say yes - I'm scared of heights, and I don't want to be pushed off at any point!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (05:16)", "body": "at least, then, I'll have someplace nice to land when I inevitably get booted out on my arse..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (06:42)", "body": "Ha-ha! We'll be sitting arse to arse, drinking champaigne and watching as the others fly past!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (15:21)", "body": "eating strawberries and chocolate the whole while. who did the decorating in here? good thing i picked up a leather, neutral couch. we could use another, but it wouldn't be as cozy, huh?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (17:12)", "body": "depends on the activity, I think..."}, {"response": 10, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (19:29)", "body": "yes, quite right.."}, {"response": 11, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (21:07)", "body": "we could have two couches real close to each other. kind of like at right angles."}, {"response": 12, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (21:44)", "body": "already have two couches (remember? the old one, then we moved in the leather one) we could put in two more and make a pit!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jul  8, 1998 (23:09)", "body": "For an orchestra!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (00:38)", "body": "no, for dancing...anyone gotta Skatenigs tape?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (01:13)", "body": "ha-ha! Small space to dance on, isn't it? Well, we can just stand still in time."}, {"response": 16, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:19)", "body": "the Skatenigs huh... you are certainly outlining your mood! I cannot do ANYTHING in time (on time, occassionally) so how about we just dance in whatever teeny space we're allotted... FREE FORM... (like my singing, shall I sing??)"}, {"response": 17, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:39)", "body": "Is that a trick question? Well, okay then, but only if you sing that one called, WOO HOO - you know, the one you sing so loudly, it echoes all over our computers sometimes."}, {"response": 18, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:42)", "body": "you mean Woo Woo? I'm sure I could come up with a catchy tune to go along!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (13:45)", "body": "Oh, believe me, it's catchy enough as it is!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (14:46)", "body": "not my mood, Stacey, outlining the only type of dancing I can do well... and they did mention making a pit...wonder how difficult couch diving is..."}, {"response": 21, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (14:49)", "body": "give it a whirl!!!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (17:00)", "body": "ha-ha!!! Just lend us that fancy bath of yours, Stacey!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (18:07)", "body": "pile in!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (21:03)", "body": "cor, can we? that'd be ace. nekkid hot-tubbin'!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (21:59)", "body": "i dunno, sure hot tubbin' is good for my fur?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (22:35)", "body": "You might wind up looking like an albino wolf when you get out!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (22:54)", "body": "haha! wouldn't that be interesting....how'd i explain it to the rest of the pack?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (23:07)", "body": "They'd probably make you the omega!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Jul  9, 1998 (23:10)", "body": "no joke!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (00:54)", "body": "Yes, get it, Wolf - if you're good we'll comb your face for you."}, {"response": 31, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (01:07)", "body": "will you comb mine next 'cause I ain't shaved in awhile..."}, {"response": 32, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (06:39)", "body": "Sure - I'll even comb your arse for you if you ask REALLY nicely. Or even better, I'll let Stacey do that . . ."}, {"response": 33, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (07:28)", "body": "that hasn't been done in a long time...both of you may need to work in shifts..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (10:40)", "body": "Okay, let me just go find my rhino brush - that ought to do the trick. Want a middle- or a side parting?"}, {"response": 35, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (10:42)", "body": "I'll leave that up to the expert..."}, {"response": 36, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (10:50)", "body": "Hmm, now let's see. If I cut it a bit, it'll form a page boy - then you can wear those trousers that sag down to your knees, so everyone can see you're new buttocks-style. You'll be able to make a pony and everything. How does that sound? Oh, and a middle parting will of course be the most natural thing."}, {"response": 37, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (13:46)", "body": "roflmao! where's the detangler!"}, {"response": 38, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (13:58)", "body": "well, if you two is a team, and she's creating the do, I guess that makes you the detangler..."}, {"response": 39, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (14:07)", "body": "(this does not sound like an ideal job...)"}, {"response": 40, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jul 10, 1998 (14:12)", "body": "(would agree with you there one hundred percent... which, of course, is fine with me as I figure you'd eventually get frustrated and start shaving...)"}, {"response": 41, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (01:21)", "body": "Think I'll stick to the do - just don't you dare fart, dear muffin, or the scissors may slip . . ."}, {"response": 42, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (11:47)", "body": "there is only one response to all of that euwwwwwwwwwwwwwww"}, {"response": 43, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (12:34)", "body": "Okay, if you ask that nicely, I can't possibly say no. Get down those pants, so I can do yours too . . ."}, {"response": 44, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:19)", "body": "um, polite decline?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:47)", "body": "Damn, so much for thoughts of a bum-styling career! Ah, well - staring into pumpkin poltergeists ALL day would take the fun out of it anyway!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (16:55)", "body": "now i am afraid of you :)"}, {"response": 47, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (17:00)", "body": "Of me? \ufffdsmile\ufffd And what terrible things do you think I might do to you?"}, {"response": 48, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jul 11, 1998 (23:26)", "body": "as opposed to the terrible things you know she would do to you given the chance..."}, {"response": 49, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul 12, 1998 (01:33)", "body": "Was that a 'please'? Shall I do the terrible thing now or when you phone me in Switzerland?"}, {"response": 50, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (05:15)", "body": "(scrunches up in couch, pulling knees into chest) So, like, I'm me. But who's that? The thing I've realised for a while now is that whoever I am, it's different to who I think I am. And there's no way I can stand outside of myself, look back in and see the truth. But you all can. So do. Tell me who you think I am. This is just an experiment, and I hope it's not too self-indulgent!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 18, 1998 (07:20)", "body": "In time you will end up surprising yourself, I think. As an outsider I think you're an intelligent, honest, funny, kind and very stubborn person. And I think it's good that you are."}, {"response": 52, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jul 19, 1998 (12:13)", "body": "Did you ever have these heart-to-heart conversations at slumber parties? And all the girls would get pissed off at each other for telling them their faults and go home in the middle of the night?"}, {"response": 53, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul 19, 1998 (15:20)", "body": "I haven't. Not even sure what a slumber party is - don't think we have those in Namibia. But when Gillian (my best friend) and I go to Paris we always end up telling each other about our faults halfway through the journey, when we're bloated with cheese and cake, and bored; then we fight all through the last two hours, but then we get there, and the city is just so beautiful, and there is the adventure of tracking down our hotel, and all the wonderful smells, the river, the street musicians and artists - and then we're best friends again."}, {"response": 54, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Jul 20, 1998 (10:11)", "body": "I have to make it to Paris in this lifetime."}, {"response": 55, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul 20, 1998 (10:56)", "body": "DO. You have not lived until you've seen Paris. You have not eaten until you've eaten in Paris. And, boy, it's a romantic city."}, {"response": 56, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Jul 20, 1998 (16:43)", "body": "we could have a Spring trip to Paris. now that would be cool. Spring trip to Austin. Spring trip to Paris. Spring trip to Brighton (i'll put you all up :)) fun fun fun."}, {"response": 57, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jul 20, 1998 (22:47)", "body": "Count me in!!"}, {"response": 58, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul 21, 1998 (05:13)", "body": "It'll probably end up being only the three of us!"}, {"response": 59, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Jul 21, 1998 (22:49)", "body": "are these going to turn out like the National Lampoon's Vacation movies? (don't know about Paris...I think me in Paris would be quite scary...)"}, {"response": 60, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul 22, 1998 (01:13)", "body": "NO!!!!! Wer, really, Paris is the least scary place in the world. ANYTHING goes there, and we won't turn out like those horrible movies. They give an utterly false impression of life ANYWHERE in Europe. There is just so much to see! You can eat bread in the park beneath the Eiffel tower, wander the beautiful, cobbled streets, go to the art market, see the most beautiful cathedrals imaginable, eat and drink like a king for little money, and you can stay out as late as you please - it's very very safe. And I bet you'd be SAD to go back afterwards."}, {"response": 61, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Jul 22, 1998 (05:55)", "body": "Bruce Sterling has a terrific article in the latest Wired magazine about the Eifel Tower, where he recently dined and accumulated the most interesting statistics and historical lore. And he talks about other \"mega-projects\" around the world incidentally. A worthwhile read if you want the background on the Eifel Tower. That Bruce has a rough life, being assigned to places like Paris, but someone has to do Wired's dirty work I guess."}, {"response": 62, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul 22, 1998 (06:25)", "body": "I'd love to replace him - I could just do with a dirty job like that."}, {"response": 63, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Jul 22, 1998 (15:26)", "body": "You would fit right in in Paris, wer...there are 10 wers on every street corner! But the cost would be prohibitive."}, {"response": 64, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul 22, 1998 (22:38)", "body": "oh, please explain... (and, just how do you picture me in that head of yours?)"}, {"response": 65, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (01:12)", "body": "ha-ha, Autumn!!! I think you're right!"}, {"response": 66, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (23:18)", "body": "ok, then you, too...how do you have me pictured in that head of yours, Riette? (you can do a sketch and post it in art if you want...)"}, {"response": 67, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul 23, 1998 (23:19)", "body": "(this is supposing that I'm no longer in my white suit and hat, Riette...)"}, {"response": 68, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (02:41)", "body": "I'll do the sketch . . ."}, {"response": 69, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (05:49)", "body": "If you ever do a montage of \"spring\" could we make it into a t shirt Riette?"}, {"response": 70, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (11:02)", "body": "yeah, why ain't you doing a logo for this place?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (11:28)", "body": "That would be awesome! If she's game."}, {"response": 72, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (11:39)", "body": "(or at least gamey...)"}, {"response": 73, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Jul 24, 1998 (21:22)", "body": "I picture you as a real \"character,\" wer, with cross-sections from all walks of life too numerous to mention here. I am frankly curious to see you/your picture, because of all the folks here, you are the one I feel I'm best able to envision (yet I have no idea what you look like, except the height). :-)"}, {"response": 74, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (03:54)", "body": "Terry, I'd love to design a t-shirt thing for us, of course, but you have now seen my style, and all my work has a slightly african touch - I don't know if that appeals to everyone/whether that would be fair. AFter all, most people here are American, and I don't know how to do something more american looking."}, {"response": 75, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (07:04)", "body": "Think spring and all it's connotations. Flowing water. Seasons. Flowers."}, {"response": 76, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (07:25)", "body": "I'll think about it - but nothing's going to happen straight away. The mosaic is slow and painstaking work, and I can't do anything else until I've finished it - self-discipline is very important to me, because it is not part of my nature. But I'll start doing some sketches in bed."}, {"response": 77, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (11:37)", "body": "*raised eyebrow*?"}, {"response": 78, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jul 25, 1998 (12:29)", "body": "\ufffdraised eyebrow too\ufffd Why? Sketching in bed? Some people read in bed, I sketch."}, {"response": 79, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Jul 26, 1998 (08:15)", "body": "People do things in beds."}, {"response": 80, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Jul 26, 1998 (09:47)", "body": "And others do it in the hay."}, {"response": 81, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Jul 26, 1998 (21:07)", "body": "As in roll?"}, {"response": 82, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jul 27, 1998 (01:02)", "body": "You will know."}, {"response": 83, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Jul 27, 1998 (22:48)", "body": "Use the force."}, {"response": 84, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul 28, 1998 (00:38)", "body": "That's my motto too."}, {"response": 85, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Jul 28, 1998 (00:38)", "body": "Has someone been eating blackberries on the new couch?? You know, big, fat, juicy ones that leave your fingers purple?"}, {"response": 86, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Jul 28, 1998 (00:38)", "body": "numph I..."}, {"response": 87, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jul 28, 1998 (00:38)", "body": "Wasn't me, really, I swear it's just paint!"}, {"response": 88, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Jul 28, 1998 (00:38)", "body": "and it'll wash right off... (well, at least it did off of Stacey and I...)"}, {"response": 89, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jul 29, 1998 (05:15)", "body": "Just don't you dare lick her - I don't want to be responsible for the two of you ending up in hospital!"}, {"response": 90, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jul 29, 1998 (13:09)", "body": "edible paints... flavored too! I prefer the mango buttered pear glacee with verigated sprikles!"}, {"response": 91, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Jul 29, 1998 (16:12)", "body": "and I, personally, am intrigued by the thought of being hospitalized for over-licking..."}, {"response": 92, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Jul 30, 1998 (13:13)", "body": "*laugh*"}, {"response": 93, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug  5, 1998 (11:39)", "body": "or under-licking for that matter"}, {"response": 94, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Aug  8, 1998 (23:41)", "body": "or licking under the matter"}, {"response": 95, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug  9, 1998 (01:30)", "body": "After all, the licking is what matters . . . especially under."}, {"response": 96, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (00:37)", "body": "not to drift off topic, but... anyone seen Stacey's shoulders around here lately?"}, {"response": 97, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (00:44)", "body": "No - she's probably decided it's time to run around the globe. Or perhaps she just has a more interesting life than the rest of us!"}, {"response": 98, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (11:30)", "body": "probably the latter, Stacey HAS a life!!"}, {"response": 99, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (20:56)", "body": "Stacey goes, and comes."}, {"response": 100, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (21:39)", "body": "Maybe she's in Austin--remember she was trying to find a good fare before school started back up?"}, {"response": 101, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (22:44)", "body": "If she is, I hope she calls."}, {"response": 102, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, Aug 16, 1998 (23:39)", "body": "the problem is bad wiring in her house...the computer fritz's out on her, so she doesn't get on very often... the time for her to be in Austin is past, she should be teaching again already so...my prediction is that she'll be on from school in the next two weeks, give or take..."}, {"response": 103, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (00:25)", "body": "What, Wer? You've got private investigators all over America, spying on yer fellow springmates there, is that it? Or is that what you do in your sparetime? You just seem to know everything about all of us!!! Oh, listen, I've forgotten where I put my spatula - can you tell me where it is?"}, {"response": 104, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (07:25)", "body": "in a mixing bowl in the back of the cabinet, or in the bottom of a toybox..."}, {"response": 105, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Aug 17, 1998 (10:28)", "body": "Oh, thank you ever so . . . got it! It was in the bottom of a toybox."}, {"response": 106, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (21:38)", "body": "*sigh* what a day. i dont normally like to whine or complain about anything but now i feel that i just neet to blab. i guess the major reason i learned not to complain about anything is that i learned real quickly that NOBODY CARES! you get further in life if you just learn to shut the fuck up and listen to other people rant. it eats you up inside sometimes. like right now. i just need someone to listen to me i guess. my fiancee has bee wonderful in this regard, having cooked me a loving dinner tonight. but i do not want to wear her out with my problems, which are so vague and intangible. i guess i am having a crisis of mortality. that is, i feel as though i have not contributed anything worthwhile to the world, nor do feel that i ever will. it is important for human beings to feel important, empowered, part of an important whole. every now and then i realize that my time here has produced precious little in terms of anything, and i realize i am just some working schmuck who no one listens to. what to do? well, one thing i can do is to hurry up and get married and have children. that is something i know will help. aside from that i really dont know. for as long as i can remember i have been striving for some sort of recognition, some sort of external indicator of my own worth. and for a while there i learned that such worth does not come from outside, but from within. you really have to value yourself first before you can get anything done in this world. however, when it comes right down to it, i really dont like myself at all. maintaining a sense of self worth is difficult under such circumstances. i go through these existential crises from time to time and always manage to pull myself together. i will be fine, i just need to get this overwith and get back to dealing with myself and with reality!"}, {"response": 107, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Aug 18, 1998 (21:49)", "body": "who said you had to save the world to contribute to this one? i think you just being you is what matters and who the heck cares? who's idea of success are you using? i have children and i love them with everything i have. don't have children to give something to the world. that is the wrong reason. they're gifts from God not gifts we give. we all feel sorry for ourselves once in a while (and i'm in that rut right now)....just leave yourself alone! *hugs*"}, {"response": 108, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (00:57)", "body": "Ray, I am terrible at giving advice, but I'm really sorry you feel like this. The bit that bothers me is that you feel you must/want to give something to the world. You mean like an earth moving scientific discovery? Something major to do with your work? I think we all want to do that from time to time. But what do we think we will achieve personally through this? I mean once people have your formula, once people know that Wer is the world's best cook, once they know Ri\ufffdtte is the ultimate artist, w at then? The world may admire you for a while, the world might put your photo on the cover of some fancy magazine once or twice, the world may refer to your formula as the Lopez String, and give you a couple of million or so to keep you happy. So what? The world will not thank you, or comfort you when you are in pain, she will not care about YOU, but about your discovery, she will not give a damn when you create a scandal, she will exploit you. That's it. Nothing more nothing less. Look at movie sta s or sports stars for example. They get EXPLOITED, nothing else. Their so-called 'admirers' exploit them - they invade their private lives by writing them moronic love-letters; people whom they don't know or care about, except that they find them physically attractive; these 'admirers' put sleezy photos of them on the internet; they get hounded by the people who encourage these admirers in order to earn money, in order to exploit. Nobody really cares about the person underneath the glamour - they do 't WANT that person without the glamour. And these people (those who are the slightest bit intelligent) become very unhappy - probably more so than those of us who are lucky enough to be ordinary, to live a free life, to be ourselves, to be FREE. I say, fu\ufffdk the world, Ray. The world does not care about you. Strive for freedom, not recognition, because that is where happiness lies - that is where your wonderful fiancee is with her loving dinners, and calm, soothing conversation, your family and friend , and it's the best place to bring your children up in. I know my advice is a true test for friendship, but I send it your way with all my love."}, {"response": 109, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (02:09)", "body": "A silent description of the night that you might see in the flight of an eagle along the mountain edge, where your heart has enough creative emptiness to feel and live this experience fully, completely, with the present being with you and in you, now, here, as even the whole becomes the seeing, and then the very seeing of beauty itself is an art. We can play the piano with great technique, or paint a painting the same way, with a clever use of colors, shapes and spatial relationships, but it may not have an ounce of creativity, because there may be no song, no beauty. To be vitally alive to the moment is where the meaning and worth of life frees the mind of routine, habit, judgment, conditioning, comparison. A different energy comes into the pulse, an energy that doesn't leave a trace....it moves, it changes, it's of the unknown.....and it's of love."}, {"response": 110, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (09:49)", "body": "i guess i did a fairly good job of communicating my feelings in the above post, because the advice given here is so damn good! it is amazing to me that people really do give a damn sometimes. anyway, i feel lots better today. i just need to learn to focus on the thhings that are truly important to me, my health, my family, and my fiancee and our home, and God."}, {"response": 111, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (14:01)", "body": "I'm just coming in on the tail end of this discussion, and must agree with all the good advice. I, too, have been feeling melancholy lately and it comes at a good time. Thank you all for being here."}, {"response": 112, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (15:34)", "body": "Seems we're all in it together a bit. I don't have those future and where-am-I-going worries - I know I'm going nowhere!! - but I feel so damned inadequate sometimes, like everything just goes wrong, even if I try to do the right thing."}, {"response": 113, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (19:37)", "body": "think we all do. this week, i have been in the dumps and people's attitudes at work just don't help any. wish i really could speak my mind. however, my position doesn't allow me too. so feel sorry for my family who hear all about it when i get home. i'm the bandaid lady, you know, the one who takes it upon themselves to fix everything. but i have learned that it's not my job. doesn't stop me from trying, though. *group hugs* i appreciate all of you for being here, giving me the space to vent my frustrations..."}, {"response": 114, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (20:58)", "body": "we'll always be here!"}, {"response": 115, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Aug 19, 1998 (22:22)", "body": "(even if we're being quiet...and have deplorable pseudonyms...)"}, {"response": 116, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (00:50)", "body": "As long as you keep living up to that deplorable pseudonym we don't mind.... Wolf, I think you're an incredibly kind person."}, {"response": 117, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (18:17)", "body": "It can really get to you, that \"being everything to everyone\" role. I'm getting to the point where I just want to be left alone; each man, woman and child for himself!"}, {"response": 118, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (19:36)", "body": "I'm all for you on that one, Autumn---ooops, got confused, got confused"}, {"response": 119, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (20:03)", "body": "What's up, Jim?"}, {"response": 120, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (21:57)", "body": "i know that feeling well, autumn. we have so many demands made of us that it's easy to get lost in it. puts me in a downright terrible mood...."}, {"response": 121, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Aug 20, 1998 (22:41)", "body": "Nobody likes me anymore, Autumn. I scowl at them and they reassure me with a slap to my nose. The rubberbands I bought down at Walmart don't hold my ego together any better than the mudcaked straw I was using up till then. 17 of my best friends phoned me this morning on the way to the toilet, at 4:00 a.m., to just laugh at my worries and fears and problems and anxieties and deformities and depressions and sorrows and suffering and neurochemistry and and and I never did make it to the toilet. I peed al over myself. My cat laughed at me. I hate the way I hate, and the hate just gets stronger and laughs at me. The ceiling fell on me this afternoon and so did the rain. And I got wet. The sky just laughed at me. I swapped lives with an orphan (who was always getting picked on by bullies) so I could feel more at home. I was walking down the street and cars were running over me right and left, I didn't have a chance. The sttreet laughed at me and all my blood. I couldn't sleep at dinner. The food j st laughed at me and kept me awake. I walked into a funeral parlor and begged for medical advice. They laughed at me and pointed out the door to the graves. Then they kicked me when I wasn't looking. When I turned to look at them, a basketball hit me full-force in the face at 97.63 miles an hour and put a dent in my left eye. I did the cha-cha for a powerful fat man who then just sat on me and made my stomach have one of those nervous breakdowns. Before I could even cry, he laughed at me and then he laughed some more. So did the sky again. The streets wouldn't let me walk on them. The cars wouldn't let me fall to the ground. Computers becames airplanes that flew into my vertebrae and all my connective tissue. Kids ran up to me and warned their kids not be born if they wanted to turn into something like me. I cried before they could laugh at me, then they laughed at me and then they laughed some more. The sky laughed with them. The streets wouldn't let me rain. The cars wouldn't let me let on . The night is trying to spook me right now. I won't let it unless somebody starts laughin' again. The cars still won't let me fall to the ground. I almost forget what it's like to be nonhereditary and sequential. Can ya even believe that? My fingers are longer than my car. And they're laughin' at me. At me. At me. At me. At me. At me. At me. At me. BTW, I'm okay. I feel great. That was fun. How are you? I mean, Autumn, what's up?---you never said. Do you know anyone who is a little eccentric? If yes, in what way? Who is the most gentle-natured person you know? Ten years from now, if your daughters come home with different colored mohawks and piercings, lots of 'em in their faces, how will you respond? Would you like to have someone similar to yourself as a friend? What is the most adventurous thing you did as an adult? How did you make mo ey as a teenager? What have you never understood? If you were given a part to play in a movie, what would that part be? What do you think the human mind is really capable of? If you used even 40% of your brain power, what do you think you could accomplish? What new dimensions could you tap into? What do you consider true genius? Can you see yourself as homeless? If you lost your job or home, and had no family or friends, what would you do? What one thing do you want to do or see before you die? hose home besides your own do you feel at home in? How honest are you? Who is the most honest person you know? How are you feeling? How are you? It's pretty nice to know you. You really are Autumn. It's what's cool."}, {"response": 122, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (01:11)", "body": "Sorry you feel like that Autumn. I must say, I don't think there is such a thing as perfect balance in life. When I was alone, before husband and kids, I was just alone. There was no-one to bother me. I did my own thing (unsuccessfully), decided my own day, ate what I liked, slept when and where I liked - there was so much freedom in that. But I had not the love, and that made me miserable at times when I needed the love. So that's why freedom is no balance. Then I go married and had the girls. I get so frustrated at times that I can go nuts, I tell you. I find this life demanding, my kids demanding, my husband demanding, I always have to arrange EVERYTHING around them, I always have to make what they want to eat, not what I want, I always have to tidy up their crap, and sometimes I think it unfair that he is allowed to come back from work tired, and neither he nor the kids ever understand that I also get tired at times, they don't understand how playing wi h paint all day while having to get the washing done, cook their food, clean their crap can be tiring. And that pisses me off, as well as the routine of being there for others. Then I also feel like just pushing everyone away. There is no balance there whatsoever. But there is so much love, you know. I have three people in the world who truly adore me. No matter who hates me, no matter who laughs at me, no matter who fears or scorns me, there are three people who love me completely unconditionally. I never have to feel lonely anymore, I have people here within my reach, to pour my own love upon; it's a selfish thing, I'm sure, but that those are the choices: freedom without that love, or the love without the freedom. Jim, more and more I am truly glad that things turned out the way it did."}, {"response": 123, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (01:13)", "body": ""}, {"response": 124, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (08:55)", "body": "i agree, riette. my babies adore me. my husband loves me and thinks i'm funny even in my pissy moods. and my pets just think i'm the next best thing to canned dog food. truly have been blessed and thank God everyday for these things. and being honest with my moods just brings us all together. after i holler and vent i can tell them why and it's ok. you know? i never want to lose that. *hugs*"}, {"response": 125, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (11:18)", "body": "Absolutely. I think it is okay to feel the weight of the responsibility heavily and painfully at times; and as long as I am able to see the big picture, as long as I can be honest with myself, and say: okay, so today I felt like a cop all day, today I hated being a wife and mother, but that at least means that tomorrow can only be better; as long as I can face up to it, and don't run away (as one feels like doing at times!!), then everything will be alright in the end. I guess that's my motto: NEVER RUN, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T REALLY HIDE. One always HAS to face things in the end."}, {"response": 126, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (17:12)", "body": "Whoa... the couch got HEAVY whilst I was away!"}, {"response": 127, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (18:26)", "body": "stacey! girl, glad to see you back!! you ready for school?"}, {"response": 128, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (19:18)", "body": "almost... working another job right now until the end of next week..."}, {"response": 129, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (21:22)", "body": "they must have kept you busy!"}, {"response": 130, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Aug 21, 1998 (23:10)", "body": "see, I told you she'd be back soon... (even if I was wrong about when school started...)"}, {"response": 131, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (08:27)", "body": "That happens."}, {"response": 132, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (11:18)", "body": "over here, my son starts school Mon. and my daughter *sob* starts Sep 1. (you see my baby girl is growing up)"}, {"response": 133, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (12:54)", "body": "Big school?! Wow, that's going to be hard, isn't it? Probably harder on you than on her. My best friend's eldest child started kindergarten a year ago, and on the first day she (my friend!) was so upset that I stayed with her all day - and I could really see how it could upset her so. Of course Alexandra loved every minute of it, and has done ever since, but it's that big letting-go thing that got my friend, I think. Well, next year it will be Isa's turn, so only then will I be able to speak of these things with first-hand experience. Can't say I'm looking forward to it much either."}, {"response": 134, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (13:47)", "body": "Here you go, Jim-- Do you know anyone who is a little eccentric? Oh, yes. If yes, in what way? He is as much of a \"character\" as you are--your posts remind me of him a great deal. Who is the most gentle-natured person you know? Kathy L. She organizes our organic food co-op, and I think if I refused to pay her or told her I was going to screw her husband, she'd say, \"Well, OK, if that's how you feel\" in this really meek, mild voice. Ten years from now, if your daughters come home with different colored mohawks and piercings, lots of 'em in their faces, how will you respond? I'd probably say, \"How d'ya think I'd look with one of those?\" Would you like to have someone similar to yourself as a friend? God, no. My friends are a pretty eclectic mix and we complement each other well. What is the most adventurous thing you did as an adult? It depends on how you define adventurous. Getting married to someone I'd only known a few months was a bit of a risk. Driving in downtown Baltimore by myself the first time felt very adventurous. Venturing into a gang-ridden neighborhood in Philly with a friend looking to buy some crack felt pretty adventurous, too. How did you make money as a teenager? I didn't--asked Mom & Dad for it. They didn't believe in teens having jobs. What have you never understood? Why people live together before they get married (I do NOT mean to offend anyone!) If you were given a part to play in a movie, what would that part be? Keyser Soze. (ha ha!) What do you think the human mind is really capable of? Good question! I don't think it can accomplish half of what it has. If you used even 40% of your brain power, what do you think you could accomplish? I am inherently lazy and lacking in ambition, which is fine. But if I really wanted to, I think I could homeschool my children. What new dimensions could you tap into? Oh, none. What do you consider true genius? Acumen in the humanities/fine arts. Can you see yourself as homeless? Oh, no. I have no survival instinct. If you lost your job or home, and had no family or friends, what would you do? I suspect I would just lose my will to live and let myself die of apathy, exposure or some such thing. What one thing do you want to do or see before you die? I will get back to you on that. Whose home besides your own do you feel at home in? My parents'. I swear my papers from high school are still lying on the kitchen table. How honest are you? I exaggerate terribly. Who is the most honest person you know? My husband is honest to a fault. That's about all that's up with me, Jim. Aren't you sorry you asked??"}, {"response": 135, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (18:25)", "body": "One enormous trait (a real strength) you have is how clear and concise you are. That is so missing from what I know and feel. You live it. The affect effect that has on me is like a rapture. It's like having a photosensitive coating laid over me and then having this new image start to grow on me and slowly appear, in sharp resolution and true colors. You bring on a dawning, an emulsion, a transmutation. I never thought you'd answer those questions. Not only did you, you just sound so solid. You're really you. It's powerful. It's like you can see straight into something, so direct. Your arrow goes right into the target, quivering its quivers upon impact. Startling impact. Even the target itself jumps back some. I like you again and again, Autumn."}, {"response": 136, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Aug 23, 1998 (00:49)", "body": "I've finally manage to figure out your true profession, Jim - you're a professional flatterer! I think your first words when you came into the world were: 'Mother, your inside is so BEAUTIFUL, it moves me, the rhythm and strength with which you squeezed me out will never stop quivering in my memory....and by the way, nursie, I like the bounce in your pounce, and how you gave overall muscle to Mama's drive to push outward; it was sudden and momentous with a lot of portent, because somehow today you just had a way of bringing out the real guts and core and root of what was happening here.' !!!!"}, {"response": 137, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Aug 23, 1998 (16:36)", "body": "LOL!! you're starting to sound like him now, riette!"}, {"response": 138, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Aug 24, 1998 (00:42)", "body": "ha-ha! Shall I tell you the trick? You have to watch Johnny Bravo and read a few Chumbawamba CD covers."}, {"response": 139, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Aug 24, 1998 (21:31)", "body": "well, today i have embarked on a new quest: to lose weight! i rejoined weight watchers (after being away for about 3 years) and i have to say it looks good. they have a new program that is much easier to live by than the old method. right now i weigh a massive 250 pounds. my goal is to get down to about 185. i don't have a set time limit, i just hope to lose it over the next couple of years. weight watchers has worked for me before so i am optimistic."}, {"response": 140, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Aug 24, 1998 (21:42)", "body": "dude, you're 100 lbs over me (and i'm a short person so trust me, it doesn't look good). am in the process of revamping my diet (not diet like the latest fad). just trying to make sure i eat well. and am exercising again. does WW still cost a lot? does it work like jenny craig (it's not what you're eating, it's what's eating you). you have a realistic timeline. a lot of people want a quick fix. a gal i work with was getting in trouble with her weight and she wanted to try a pill. another co-worker's wife works in a doc's office and set up an appointment for the her. well, upon being told that her blood pressure was too high, this gal got mad at the guy who's wife set up the whole thing for her. she just was too lazy to get off her arse. kept saying, \"i can't wait to be skinny\" and then i would see her eating BK Diner and getting into the snack bar. yeah, i'd like to lose weight quick too, but it would come back double, you know? stay healthy! you can due it ray!!"}, {"response": 141, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Aug 24, 1998 (22:29)", "body": "Good for both of you, doing what you know is healthy. I have beeen smoking more than ever this summer for some reason."}, {"response": 142, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (00:57)", "body": "I don't smoke. That's the only healthy part of my life. So I really admire you guys for looking after yourselves so well."}, {"response": 143, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (01:19)", "body": "I just got out of the pool, it felt great, a refreshing way to cap off the day! Ray, you can do it man. Just work out a lot. Lot's of walks, runs, go swimming, get to the health club. You've got to get a bit fanatical about health and working out, that's all!"}, {"response": 144, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (01:27)", "body": "I find working out way too boring, plus it doesn't change the way my body looks. Think I must be made out of stone. So my workouts consist of running/dancing/wrestling with my kids . . . and sex. At least it's fun, and it doesn't feel healthy."}, {"response": 145, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (01:29)", "body": "You're having fun, and getting a lot of good exercise at it!"}, {"response": 146, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (05:26)", "body": "How wholesome that makes me feel!!! Perhaps you'll feel differently about it if I were to wrestle YOU!!"}, {"response": 147, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (07:37)", "body": "Sounds like wrestlemania."}, {"response": 148, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (08:58)", "body": "ha-ha!!! Yes, I've always been very butch, you know!"}, {"response": 149, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (09:12)", "body": "haha!! working out with weights will help tone and shape your body (God, i sound like a commercial). but seriously, smaller weights more reps. oh, and riette, everytime you say you're shaped weird i think of picasso (trust me, though i know what you mean)"}, {"response": 150, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (11:20)", "body": "i was seriously addicted to weightlifting once and i wish i had the time to pursue it. right now my exercise will consist of mostly walking and jogging. thanks for all the words of encouragement!!!"}, {"response": 151, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (11:46)", "body": "that's the best way to start out. the walking will be easier on your body than running and it's the best way to keep weight off. AND you can do it everyday! don't think it's so much as how fast you walk but that you do it and you can make up for the speed by walking farther."}, {"response": 152, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Aug 25, 1998 (18:55)", "body": "the whole fitness thing really builds on itself. everytime I make it to the top of a mountain or back home after a particularly invigorating skate, I remember why I take care of my body. i used to be fanatical about exercise because I was terrified of losing control... but now I just really love to play and sweat and see new things on the top of very tall peaks. and I still LOVE to eat!"}, {"response": 153, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Aug 26, 1998 (01:00)", "body": "No, $hit, that stuff's not for me. Baby lifting is about my limit! I just don't have the sort of mind that will tell me: exercise is good for you, take 20 or 30 minutes a day, and do it. Or as long as 'exercise' is called, walking in the woods, wrestling, playing ball, playing catch, I love it. But the word itself does nothing for me - uh-ugh! I'm lucky in that, although I'm arranged like a Picasso (eyes and all!!), even FOOD won't change my wicked shape, and so at least I never get fat!"}, {"response": 154, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (13:32)", "body": "well, having been doing the weight watchers thing now for just over 2 weeks, i have lost a total of 12.5 pounds!!!!!!!!!! i cant say enough good things about weight watchers. i am hoping to soon get back to a semi-trim athletic physique and maybe take up boxing again"}, {"response": 155, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (14:28)", "body": "Slaps Ray a high five. Could you detail your daily routine?"}, {"response": 156, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (14:45)", "body": "well, it's pretty simple: given your weight, you are assigned a range of \"points\" per day. every single food item in the world has some point value associated with it, and the idea is to simply eat a variety of foods throughout the day that add up to your being equal to or less than the maximum number of points you can eat per day. for example, when i started weight watchers, my weight was 250 lbs. this means that I am allotted 26 to 33 points a day. Non-starchy veggies are zero points so you can eat as many of those as you want. diet sodas and water are also zero points. on the other end of the spectrum you have a small cheesburger at about 11 points, and one of the Ceasar Wraps at Long John Silver's has a whopping 33 points in it. as part of the program you get little pocket sized books that catalog all of the points in pretty much every type of food there is. they also have a book that has listings for about 15 fast food places and the points for every menu item. besides points, weight watchers also involves eating a healthy variety of foods, as much activity/exercise as possible, and of course going to the weekly meetings. the best part of ww is the fact that you can eat any type of food you want, you just have to watch how much of it you eat."}, {"response": 157, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (18:41)", "body": "so basically, ww is teaching you how to eat properly again? because it has always been my firm belief that one can eat whatever they want as long as they don't eat ALL of it and exercise 3 times a week. good job, ray! am proud of you...i think i know where those 12 pounds went..."}, {"response": 158, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (23:00)", "body": "that is exactly what ww teaches! and i was surprised at how little i really know about what is good for you and what is not good for you."}, {"response": 159, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep  8, 1998 (00:38)", "body": "That's great, Ray! You sound very happy, and that makes me happy too!"}, {"response": 160, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep  8, 1998 (08:00)", "body": "thanks, riette!"}, {"response": 161, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Sep 10, 1998 (20:45)", "body": "(*patting Ray on the back*) Way to go, ratthing! Keep that up and you won't be able to fit in your tuxedo!"}, {"response": 162, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 11, 1998 (00:29)", "body": "Ray, I've got a question. You used to be a boxer, right? Welll, here's my question: Is it not very painful?"}, {"response": 163, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, Sep 11, 1998 (13:14)", "body": "it can be a very painful way to live. during the training is when one experiences the most pain. whether lifting weights, jumping rope, sparring, you were always pushing yourself til you hurt. actual matches were also painful too. I was an amatuer boxer, meaning that you get to wear a padded helmet. the upshot of this is that most of the strategy in boxing someone else involved working the body. which means getting your body beat up. after a long fight i hurt so bad that even my internal organs hurt. i quit doing it mainly because i was a pretty bad boxer and had injured myself to the point where i could not adequately train any more. personally, i found the whole experience extremely gratifying. it really helped me to develop self-confidence and to not be afraid to face anyone anywhere. it was also a good way to meet women!"}, {"response": 164, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 12, 1998 (01:39)", "body": "ha-ha! You little massochist! Finding it gratifying to have hurting internal organs. Ouch!"}, {"response": 165, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (16:40)", "body": "This is way later than your comment, and you might have changed your mind in the interim, but I am curious why it was a good way to meet women, and what sort of women you met. I have only been to amateur local meets and collegiate bouts...the women there were not like me (which is probably what they were saying about me...)"}, {"response": 166, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (11:12)", "body": "I don't like socializing with women. They are too into clique-forming. Guys don't give a damn about whether one buys vegetables at the supermarket or at B\ufffdrkli Platz Market, which is far more expensive, and which is the difference about getting by and being comfortable. That just pi$$es me off about our sex. The damned vanity of it."}, {"response": 167, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (16:01)", "body": "ahhh... the root of the problem... and why I have few female friends..."}, {"response": 168, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (16:49)", "body": "Men are the only friends I have ever had who remained friends for a long time. Women are users...I find that very difficult to handle. There are exception, as I have discovered recently (very cherished and caring ladies, all!)...but for real trust, I almost never tell a woman anything. And, you're right, Ree, they are clique-forming which is the most appalling form of elitism I can think of."}, {"response": 169, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep  3, 1999 (02:16)", "body": "See, THAT'S why we are such good friends!!! We relate to each other like guys! \ufffdTim Allen gorilla snort\ufffd"}, {"response": 170, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep  3, 1999 (02:18)", "body": "Oh, and add a burp, a fart, and spit in the corner. HMMMM, do you FEEEEEEEEL that testosterone rush, ladies???"}, {"response": 171, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Sep  7, 1999 (20:05)", "body": "I feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel it!!!! Amen BroSister *grin*"}, {"response": 172, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (02:21)", "body": "Praise the, L-A-W-R-D!"}, {"response": 173, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (08:42)", "body": "Today's Theory of Cliques and Tribes... A Tribe is a group of people with a common set of fears."}, {"response": 174, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (10:53)", "body": "Good. It's got to be more pleasant to be part of a group of people with a common set of fears, rather than a common set of vanities. I remember clearly thinking as a child that, if 'good christians' are the people who are destined for heaven, then I'd rather go to hell with all the normal people."}, {"response": 175, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (21:48)", "body": "Mark Twain had some sort of cutting remark to the same effect. Count me in, too. The only people I know who are sure about going to Heaven are so...well, like you say, I'd like to stay with the normal people!"}, {"response": 176, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (03:17)", "body": "They're so tight-ar$ed, THAT's what!"}, {"response": 177, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (08:37)", "body": "To get to Heaven, one must overcome all one's fears. Few manage that. Especially those who have Fear of Heaven."}, {"response": 178, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (11:10)", "body": "I think it's impossible to overcome ALL one's fears. Fear is part of being human - to presume we can be better than human in this life can cause greater fear. The quality of Life depends on how you DEAL with fears that are difficult to overcome. Heaven? A place or a state of consciousness?"}, {"response": 179, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (12:36)", "body": "perhaps we overcome them ALL when we die... when we did are we no longer human? hmmm... just askin'"}, {"response": 180, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (01:00)", "body": "I don't know if we're human or not when we die - how can I speculate about something I don't know about? I'll have to wait and see."}, {"response": 181, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (10:17)", "body": "*laugh* Ree-face, I speculate 'bout things I don't know ALL THE TIME! *grin*"}, {"response": 182, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (13:18)", "body": "Yes, but everybody knows you're BARKING, Stacey-facey! \ufffdgiggle\ufffd"}, {"response": 183, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (17:17)", "body": "Au contraire... I am meowing... *MEOW* (then I hiss and growl if I don't get my way!)"}, {"response": 184, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (02:47)", "body": "OOH! I'm tremblin' in me boots! Stand back, everyone! If she can hiss and growl, it is quite possible that she can spit as well!"}, {"response": 185, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (14:31)", "body": "and projectile vomit hairballs!"}, {"response": 186, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (15:07)", "body": "Whose hair??"}, {"response": 187, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (15:31)", "body": "whoever I been licking lately!"}, {"response": 188, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (04:49)", "body": "EEEEK!!!! philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 31, "subject": "Physical Attractiveness", "response_count": 169, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (15:33)", "body": "since I have a tendency to not consider myself \"attractive\" I enjoy body modifications, both public and private, temporary and permanent, on myself and on others..."}, {"response": 2, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (16:42)", "body": "I cut off my head to increase my height. But it didn't work."}, {"response": 3, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (16:53)", "body": "I hate it when that happens!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Sep  7, 1998 (18:44)", "body": "physical attractiveness is different for whomever is doing the looking. for example, my husband finds me very attractive but no one else does. so who the hell cares? he loves me no matter what and if no one else can, then too bad, so sad for them. they don't know what they're missing!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep  8, 1998 (00:50)", "body": "I think physical attractiveness is something one should be very careful about. One should look after oneself, but not let the way one looks rule your life. Everything that is physical, i.e. on the outside can be lost so easily - in fact, WILL be lost. One second in which you lose control of your car, for example, can take away your face. One second of not concentrating while you cross a road can do the same. And even if one is desperately beautiful, Time will certainly change that about thirty years efore the end of your life - and what have you to live for then? But inner beauty is a different thing, and therefore THAT is what we should concentrate, and really work on, even become obsessed with. Because inner beauty turns into outer beauty, and no-one and nothing can take it away."}, {"response": 6, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Sep  8, 1998 (09:45)", "body": "so true, inner beauty can't help itself and will shine!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep  8, 1998 (13:12)", "body": "Beautiful people will call this self-deceit, of course..."}, {"response": 8, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep  8, 1998 (14:05)", "body": "well, you are a beautiful person, riette, so whatever you say goes!"}, {"response": 9, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Sep  8, 1998 (16:13)", "body": "aw, ray, don't tell her that..."}, {"response": 10, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  9, 1998 (00:54)", "body": "Don't worry, I've got my .... ears .... closed."}, {"response": 11, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  9, 1998 (00:55)", "body": "By the way, this background is yet another example of inner beauty turning into outer beauty!"}, {"response": 12, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep  9, 1998 (08:11)", "body": "i like it, too"}, {"response": 13, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  9, 1998 (12:35)", "body": "The Spring is turning so pretty, I feel like I'm being hit with a valentine's card everytime I log in!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep  9, 1998 (16:10)", "body": "(I think I'm gonna puke...)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 10, 1998 (00:55)", "body": "Here, have a sickbag - my husband collects them."}, {"response": 16, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Sep 10, 1998 (18:12)", "body": "not THAT one!!!!!!! (it's special...)"}, {"response": 17, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Sep 10, 1998 (20:49)", "body": "I think about 2% of the world's population is truly attractive to everyone (models, etc.) and another 2% is universally repelling (maybe the aforementioned car accident victims?). But the other 96% could go either way--it just depends on your feelings about them once you get to know them."}, {"response": 18, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 11, 1998 (00:33)", "body": "Yes, precisely! How do you manage to just say a thing so right, hey Autumn? Do you take lessons for that?"}, {"response": 19, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Sep 11, 1998 (10:39)", "body": "My vast wisdom and experience from attracting and repelling. HA! I am feeling \"old\" today, as I'm headed for a get-together to kick off my high school reunion weekend (15 years). I'm considering taking a nap this afternoon so I can stay up late tonight--is that pathetic or what? (*rummage, rummage*) I know that I've got some concealer around here somewhere..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 11, 1998 (10:46)", "body": "Well, have a good time anyway - I'm sure they'll all look worse than you. With being six foot tall you can't possibly look worse than all the short ar$es!"}, {"response": 21, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Sep 11, 1998 (12:11)", "body": "Yeah, I figure having legs up to here will help me hold my own with all those bald guys and pregnant women, ha-ha!! Actually, we're a pretty close-knit class, and a lot of us see each other on a regular basis anyway. There will be very few surprises, I suspect."}, {"response": 22, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 12, 1998 (01:41)", "body": "Tell us when you come back! You know, all the disgusting details of Ed practically tripping over his nose hair and Cynthia having become a prostitute."}, {"response": 23, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Sep 12, 1998 (08:45)", "body": "haha!!"}, {"response": 24, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Sep 13, 1998 (21:00)", "body": "LOL! Nobody had a really drastic story to tell. A few have \"come out\" since high school, a few more been thru rehab, but the most titillating it got was one guy divorced his wife (whom he dated all thru school, so we all know her) and she has since remarried another classmate. A little eyebrow-raising at best. No one even has a really weird career or is doing time. (Unless it's one of those people whose reunion letters were returned by the post office!) Somehow, after a weekend of major partying wit these people, I have emerged unscathed, while everyone around me at the picnic this afternoon looked and felt like hell with a hangover. I still got it! And I didn't even throw up. I did see an old flame, however. That was...interesting."}, {"response": 25, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Sep 14, 1998 (00:04)", "body": "how much did we \"see,\" and how...interesting did it get? (inquiring minds want to know!)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 14, 1998 (01:05)", "body": "Now, THAT's the sort of detail we were waiting to hear - I knew it would come at some point! TELL US, Autumn! What's his name, how long did the flame burn, and is he still the hunk you thought him to be? PLUS: how did you react to one another? C'mon, don't be shy now!"}, {"response": 27, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Mon, Sep 14, 1998 (07:53)", "body": "dish that dirt, girlfriend!!"}, {"response": 28, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 14, 1998 (13:04)", "body": "So, have you had any surprise encounters with old girlfriends, Wer?"}, {"response": 29, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Sep 15, 1998 (23:12)", "body": "yeah, one over the summer...happened to be the young lady whose name is tattooed on my wrist..."}, {"response": 30, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (00:50)", "body": "$hit! AND??? Did yer heart burst? Did you talk to her?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (08:09)", "body": "what? her name is on your wrist? so how long is the name of lists and do they charge extra for crossing the latest one out?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (11:57)", "body": "And what .... ahem ... does Robin think of that? I think I'd cut Chris' wrist off if anything but MY name were tattooed on it."}, {"response": 33, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (13:38)", "body": "'twas odd, didn't say anything to one another (which I still feel bad about) at the end of us I was a real ass, and feel that I owe her a huge apology... her name is the only one on me, and I never have the money laying around to get it removed..."}, {"response": 34, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (13:41)", "body": "ran into another since I've been married, as well, on her last night in Austin before moving away with her boyfriend, that one went okay as she and I were really good friends for a long time..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (14:22)", "body": "So, we could just call you the X-magnet from now on!"}, {"response": 36, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Sep 16, 1998 (21:59)", "body": "His name is Jimmy and we were a hot item in 10th grade (that's 15 years old, so how hot could we have been?) I just finished reading this book by one of my favorite novelists, Elizabeth Berg, and here is an excerpt (warning, it's long): \"...I sat and read those love letters (from old boyfriends). All of them: sweet, morning-after notes taped onto my bathroom mirror, fountain-penned missives from Tim Stanley...I read things that made me get soft at the center again, that make me stare out the window and sigh...I felt really out of it for hours...I almost called one of my old boyfriends, but I could anticipate what would happen. I would pour out a rush of sentiment--'Now, this doesn't mean anything, but do you remember the incredible lo e we felt for each other, do you remember when we stayed out all night to watch the sun come up...and you kissed me so gently it made me think I could never, never leave you?'...and the now-balding Larry Drever, holding the phone at the desk from which he sells life insurance would say, '...Who is this??'\" I cite that passage because that sums up the way I felt when I saw him--remembered the sentimental coming-of-age stuff, and would've liked to reminisce a little. He basically said something like, \"Hi! I didn't even recognize you! So, who all came to this reunion?\" (looking around the room) I asked him several questions about job/family/old friends, got brief answers, then he said, \"Well I'm going to get another beer. Nice seeing you!\" That really took the wind out of my sails--not because I expecte him to still care about me, because I surely don't care about him, but because I did expect him to be somewhat interested in me and my life and the way I turned out. I've certainly been curious about him over the years (on a personal level, not a sexual one). I was just left wondering, is it that I'm just such a distant memory that he's forgotten? Or is it a guy thing? (like the book excerpt suggests.) Sorry this is so long and not at all juicy."}, {"response": 37, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep 17, 1998 (00:27)", "body": "I had a crush on a girl in high school and she's now emailing me occasionally. I wonder what it would be like to fly in to St. Louis and take her out on a date? This came out of a high school reunion topic I started in the homepage conference (Bayless High). It would be a kick, that's for sure. Actually there are two women I, uh, lusted after that are single now. Menage a ... nevermind. Does anyone else have these fantasies? Wow, autumn@spring, are you ever on a roll tonight. Lookee... Wed Sep 16 21:32:42 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to porch 42 97 (Why do you keep coming back?) Wed Sep 16 21:41:28 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to philosophy 28 319 (My day's philosophy) Wed Sep 16 21:57:07 1998 wer (KitchenManager) responded to porch 42 98 (Why do you keep coming back?) Wed Sep 16 21:59:44 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to philosophy 31 36 (Physical Attractiveness) Wed Sep 16 22:02:14 1998 slight taste of mafia (KitchenManager) responded to screwed 63 6 (jihad) Wed Sep 16 22:09:32 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to art 19 38 (Baroque and Rococo) Wed Sep 16 22:10:51 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to art 21 70 (The impressionists) Wed Sep 16 22:13:11 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to art 28 26 (Vincent van Gogh) Wed Sep 16 22:15:01 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to art 30 27 (Claude Monet (1840-1926)) Wed Sep 16 22:15:05 1998 wer (KitchenManager) responded to art 19 39 (Baroque and Rococo) Wed Sep 16 22:16:24 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to art 33 34 (Black Art) Wed Sep 16 22:24:14 1998 wer (KitchenManager) responded to politics 12 60 (Clinton Presidency) Wed Sep 16 22:25:48 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to babes 31 28 (Spanish language television babes) Wed Sep 16 22:29:28 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to screwed 18 70 (screwed's first 5-word story) Wed Sep 16 22:31:11 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to screwed 19 257 (Word Association) Wed Sep 16 22:35:28 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to screwed 43 19 (Physical Unattractiveness: who is the ugliest muthafucka here?) Wed Sep 16 22:37:11 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to screwed 49 6 (Ri\ufffdtte (note correct spelling) is a junky) Wed Sep 16 22:37:48 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to screwed 51 19 (50 TOPICS!!!!!!!) Wed Sep 16 22:41:49 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to screwed 58 7 (The Screwed Spring for Dummies, 2nd Edition) Wed Sep 16 22:44:58 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to screwed 63 7 (jihad) Wed Sep 16 22:48:26 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to music 1 113 (Allow me to introduce myself) Wed Sep 16 22:51:09 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to music 38 152 (What tunes are you tuned into right now?) Wed Sep 16 22:55:03 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to education 7 11 (putting kids mentors/teachers on the net) Wed Sep 16 22:58:20 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to news 9 85 (Obits) Wed Sep 16 23:00:24 1998 wer (KitchenManager) responded to porch 30 74 (how many people logged into the Spring today?) Wed Sep 16 23:10:05 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to inner 2 29 (yadda, yadda, yadda...) Wed Sep 16 23:11:26 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to inner 4 10 (wer's head) Wed Sep 16 23:13:11 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to movies 11 153 (What movies have you been seeing?) Wed Sep 16 23:14:05 1998 Autumn Moore (autumn) responded to porch 30 75 (how many people logged into the Spring today?) Puff. puff. huff. puff. You've got a lot of energy! wer's kind of a punctuation mark in there, isn't he? Go Autumn. Love it!"}, {"response": 38, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 17, 1998 (00:52)", "body": "That's so sad, Autumn. I don't know what more to say, except that it would have saddened me too. I don't really lust after old boyfriends. My taste before I met Chris was mega bad, you see! Afrikaner men aren't exactly wildly exciting."}, {"response": 39, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Sep 17, 1998 (20:44)", "body": "can't say that I've ever had a fantasy about one of your high school lusts, Terry..."}, {"response": 40, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep 17, 1998 (21:16)", "body": "What about one of your high school classmates?"}, {"response": 41, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Sep 17, 1998 (21:26)", "body": "nope, once high school was over, i was outta there!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (00:39)", "body": "Same here! I HATED school! Was a bloody bad student too."}, {"response": 43, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (08:37)", "body": "no, i was good in school, just the boys were yuck, they couldn't see me for who i am!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (11:25)", "body": "Oh, no question about that! Why do schoolkids try so damned hard to be cool???"}, {"response": 45, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (16:48)", "body": "Here's the thing. It got me thinking about how, over the years, whenever I've seen an old boyfriend (either someone I casually dated or had an intense relationship with), he has pretended to not see me or seems taken aback when I've greeted him. I don't know if it's just me, or if it's a guy thing that once it's over, they harden their hearts to the memories of those who have inspired and shaped their feelings towards women. In other words, in order to move on and be with other women, they need to erase the memories of those who went before, whereas I think women (ladies, tell me if this is true) tend to draw on both the bitter and the sweet, keep what they can use for memory's sake and consider the rest a lesson in life. On re-reading, I am not very good at communicating this theory!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (22:03)", "body": "no no, i understand what you're saying. i think they're wondering the same thing we wonder. does she remember when i? does he remember this? you know? and both avoid the other because it's hard to recognize someone but not know what to say. i've avoided people i know (women and men) because the situation seemed awkward. fortunately, i've not met an ex-boyfriend, yet!"}, {"response": 47, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (22:07)", "body": "If you did, would you avoid him? I guess enough time has passed since my other relationships that I have no unresolved feelings towards any of them--a genuine interest at most and ambivalence at the least."}, {"response": 48, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (22:12)", "body": "i don't know. probably if i could. i mean, i wouldn't go out of my way to be in his way, you know? i'm happy with my choices. but there is the part of me that want's to get into that skimpy outfit and get into their way, see what you missed you big dork! haha!! i think we all have that in us somewhere...."}, {"response": 49, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (22:16)", "body": "Wow, I guess it's just me then. I wouldn't go stalking them, but I enjoy seeing them and hearing how they turned out, seeing if they're the men they wanted to be when they were 17...or 21...or 35. It's not a \"big dork\" thing, or \"see, I'm prettier than your wife\" thing, it's just a good will feeling acknowledging a former connection (especially in the case of the serious relationships, of which there were several). What can I say, I'm easy! I fall in love like (*snap*) that."}, {"response": 50, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Sep 18, 1998 (22:24)", "body": "haha!! no, i wouldn't stalk them and would have no interest in putting down their wives. just want to make them think a bit. i don't think i would actually strut around half-naked just to get a reaction from an old boyfriend! and of course i would wish them well. i fall in love with the idea of falling in love. (well, except for my husband, who i fell in love with and thought, damn! why'd i go and do that? but i still loves the guy *sweet warm fuzzy feeling*) and he's been my only serious relationship. i was engaged before him but it wasn't for love, more of the idea and fear of being apart."}, {"response": 51, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Sep 19, 1998 (00:24)", "body": "\"I fall in love like (*snap*) that.\" said Autumn. (yeah, me too...)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Sep 19, 1998 (00:26)", "body": "I like high school reunions alot. Missed my first one this year. Been to 4 or 5 of 'em. The people I knew better than others...[and now I see what I'm about to say, and it's off from the truth, so I'll start again]: all the people I ran into, well, uh, I had real different reactions to them all---some were complicated in how I couldn't let in any more than I wanted to about them and was feeling an aversion towards certain peccadillos in their personalities as I was perceiving them, however conceitedly or wrongly---others I zoomed in on and couldn't get enough of....so I'm saying that both kinds of reactions happened with those I knew better than others, BUT I never had a relationship with anyone in high school or anyone since. Um, it's somewhat pathetic, except I wouldn't think that would be such a good word to use with myself. It's been an interesting life in one big way: in the way of how I can't figure out what's the matter. So life is definitely a puzzle for me, a mystery....fairly confusing. And that, in its own mild kind of way, whatever that means, is interesting. It's funny to not mind that something major in life has foundered. I don't mind because it's simply so true. I just really like what's true. It interests me, it stays moving, I don't kiss off or laugh off or disregard the existence of that confusion or puzzle or foundering. Sorry if this went way off from what we were all talking about. Did it go way off?"}, {"response": 53, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 19, 1998 (00:57)", "body": "I'm never sure what to think of old boyfriends. A part of me wants to go say hi, and how are they, etc. etc. But the biggest part says, let the past be. The funny thing is that the one guy I did have quite strong feelings for, and who I know had strong feelings for me too, remains very close. I see him every year in Africa, and once a year he comes and visits during the week-long African festival here in Z\ufffdrich. He would be the one man I could mope over, yet he never WANTED me to mope, and though we ould not stay together (I wanted to come to Europe, he had to stay in Africa because of his work), he never once held it against me, or tried to forget what happened. And he always saw to it we stayed close, and has become very good friends with Chris too - never once mentioning what happened between us. I very much appreciate that."}, {"response": 54, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Sep 19, 1998 (21:02)", "body": "sounds like a good man and that he truly loves you. that's a rare thing, girl and you are lucky! i'm not saying that my life has been so golly gee wonderful. in fact, just a few years ago i was ready to walk out on my marriage. even asked my husband to go away or i would. he said i could go if i was that unhappy. pondering it, i knew then that i indeed had a choice, which i really didn't accept before. and since then, we've been working on our marriage and really really talking about things. there isn't a thing about me that he doesn't know and i wouldn't have it any other way."}, {"response": 55, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 21, 1998 (21:30)", "body": "Your husband probably did the best thing in giving you that choice, neither saying, yes, go, I'm sick of you too, nor forbidding you to leave. He showed that he loved you too much to leave you, or keep you from going somewhere where you thought you'd be happier. Perhaps that is what made you stay?"}, {"response": 56, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Sep 21, 1998 (21:43)", "body": "just knowing that i was my own person is what did it for me. but then i also had to think rationally, you know? i didn't really understand why i was so set on leaving. i think it was because i thought i wasn't trustworthy because of some things i had shared with my husband. i didn't change my mind overnight but agreed that we could try. he understood where i was coming from and i told him i was very confused. see, i had gone to school for a whole month (this was when i came into contracting) and i learned that i was me and felt like me and this was the first time in a long time that i had. but i learned that i can be me even in this marriage and if i'm not then what the heck am i doing here? you know? we talk about why we say things we say and how we react. and he learned to pay attention. this i found out last year that he was listening to what i was saying because he relayed something that had happened at work. one of his friends said he didn't buy his wife presents for christmas (and not because of some religious belief or lack of money, or whatever). my husband told him he'd better pay her some attention or you never know what'll happen. it made me feel good to know that he had been listening and not just letting it go in one ear and out the other. we just committed ourselves to what we've created, i guess. love the guy, can't really imagine life without him (oh, you know, once in a while, i can)"}, {"response": 57, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 21, 1998 (22:47)", "body": "That's so nice. I'm really glad it worked out alright in the end. Chris had the BIG BIG problems before we got married; I was trying to flee my past, he was still not over a woman who had let him down ten years earlier. The first year of marriage was also difficult, because having a baby was such a huge thing to adapt to (I was so young, he was so old!), but then everything just started going great, and now we don't have more than, say, one proper fight a year. The rest of the time we sort of make fu , and are able to talk things out in a playful manner, teasing each other instead of accusing. And because we don't have the big fights often, they make us both so miserable that we talk/shout/accuse/hurt it out there and then, but then it's over and done, the air is clear, and we can make up. But since we've been married we've just both been so happy. Every year when I go home, Mum always says how pretty I look to her - which must mean that she sees how happy I am. The other day I was looking for thi gs to put on the video for the Spring cam, and came across Isa's christening-do. I was almost shocked at how utterly YOUNG Chris looks. When I met him, he was such a serious, brooding, mistrusting, nose-in-his-books, spartian creature. On the video he is energetic, laughing, playing the clown, and so utterly young! He seriously does not even look fourty on the video, and neither does he now. I just find it so comforting that, despite the boredom and routine we can make one another so happy that it ac ually transforms us physically too. Do you know what I mean?"}, {"response": 58, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Sep 22, 1998 (09:43)", "body": "i most certainly do. my husband and i have both changed from the wide-eyed kids we were (and yes, you can see it in our wedding photos) to older and wiser adults. we laugh, play, make fun, tease, fight, make up, cry, everything. it does show because he looks better to me now than he did when we met. his eyes still sparkle and warm up when he looks at me even when he's madder than hell at something i said or did."}, {"response": 59, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (00:57)", "body": "Yes, exactly. And on the whole I never want to be single again - I feel so much more 'whole' than I did when I was young."}, {"response": 60, "author": "kristen", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (01:15)", "body": "I want a relationship like that!!!"}, {"response": 61, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (01:44)", "body": "Then wipe off the make-up, make yourself as ugly as possible (if that's possible in your case), and you'll know the guy who falls in love with you is in love with your looks AND you."}, {"response": 62, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (10:24)", "body": "i want to be riette's love monkey, and i we've never met! Current weight loss report: as of my weight watchers weigh-in on monday, i have lost 18.5 lbs!!!!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (13:20)", "body": "But you are my monkey, love... WOW! You must send a photo when you're finished at weight watchers, will you, Ray?"}, {"response": 64, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (14:34)", "body": "great work, Ray!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (14:57)", "body": "cool beans, ray!! keep it up. have they told you about plateauing out? you know, when you stay the same weight for a little while? it's important that you not give up then. it means your body has gotten used to what you're doing. just try to do a little bit more until you get to where you need to be. you're doing great!!!!!"}, {"response": 66, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (16:43)", "body": "i was in WW before and gave up for that very reason, wolfie, i hit a wall. my intention now is to give my weight loss efforts at least two years before i call it quits. also i am starting to exercise a lot more than i did before, mostly because my damaged back and knees do not bother me as much as they used to!"}, {"response": 67, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (17:14)", "body": "I had some great news today. I have a friend, called Phil, who is one of the nicest people I know. He's such a great bloke that some times I just can't even find words for it - you know the kind of person? :) Problem is that Phil is seriously overweight, in need of a good shave and a decent haircut. Not that this makes any difference to my relationship with him, but it makes it difficult for him to form other relationships, especially with women. Basically, he can't - a massive lack of confidence, and, I guess, a lack of desirability, sad though that is. The great news is that Phil has agreed, in principle, to come down to London after we both graduate next summer and get a job with me in London. Which means that firstly he'll be in the City, with *loads* of people (rather than in the tiny village that he lives in now) and that I can help him to get some of that weight off and just invite him out places! Phil so deserves to meet great women, and the mere fact that he's not George Clooney wouldn't, in a perfect world, get in the way. But unfortunately, this ain't a perfect world. Hopefully, though, everything will work out better! I am happy :)) Today has been a good day :)"}, {"response": 68, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (18:06)", "body": "that post of yours really made me feel good too, mike. all the way over here in texas. if you and phil are really close, then you can just come out and tell him all of this and why you feel it is important. he needs to realize that he alone holds the key to his own happiness. he is extremely, extremely, extremely lucky to have a friend like you who cares enough about him to help him with that. i wish i had a friend like that."}, {"response": 69, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (18:15)", "body": "hehehe....and there was me thinking that your post would say \"You shouldn't be trying to run his life!\" :-) i can't wait - i'm so excited. and it'll help pay the mortgage....:))"}, {"response": 70, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 23, 1998 (22:12)", "body": "well, no, don't try to run his life. ultimately he is the one who has to decide what he wants. i am just saying that IMHO a good friend is one who thinks ahead to what might make you happy, and helps you acheive that goal if you want, and still loves you even if you don't want to. he is the *only* person who holds the key to his own happiness, but having someone who really cares makes the road to happiness much easier."}, {"response": 71, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (01:05)", "body": "Oh, come on, Ray! You speak as if you're like this poor bloke, and you're not!!! You weren't really fat, and CERTAINLY not unattractive! \ufffdbig hug\ufffd Mike, it is great that this man is going to get into a city, I think. It will be a help, because he won't stand out anymore. In a big city one sees fat, thin, ugly, beautiful, cripple, mad people every day - one becomes as the other. This could only be helpful to him. He won't be the 'poor fat, unshaven bloke' anymore. And when that and a good friend like you, help him gain confidence, he'll have the confidence to lose weight for himself, and look after himself, and hopefully find a person who loves im the way he is."}, {"response": 72, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (06:51)", "body": "yeah...you know the main thing that worries me? the fact that he's so unhealthy at the moment he's probably got a shortened life span. what a waste that would be. bring on Weight Watchers...! I'll even go to, even though I'm skinny as a rake!"}, {"response": 73, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 24, 1998 (10:20)", "body": "Oh, I'm sure his life span will grow as his happiness grows! Just get him into the city!"}, {"response": 74, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Sep 28, 1998 (20:16)", "body": "uh... late again, as usual! Congrats Ray!!! I adore meeting up with people from my past, boyfriend or not! After a few long termish, intimate relationships and inevitable heart wrenching breakups, I find communication impossible but given a year or two... what fun to see and talk and think about what was and what is now. Always makes me feel so... evolved!! *laugh* Guess that means my taste in the beginning wasn't so great! I fall in 'love' quickly but 'comfortability' takes eons."}, {"response": 75, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Sep 28, 1998 (20:18)", "body": "Damn. I forgot the blasted topic! pretty people... yeah... they're pretty. Really gorgeous people kinda make me nervous. I like quirks like crooked noses or lopsided ears or three eyeballs... *smile* Physical attractiveness is important in its own way... Autumn called it though... 96% of the population could go either way!"}, {"response": 76, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Sep 28, 1998 (20:31)", "body": "three eyes is good - re: the claw is my master :)"}, {"response": 77, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (01:01)", "body": "don't insult Terry like that! Nice to hear your voice, girl!"}, {"response": 78, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (07:36)", "body": "La la la laaaaa la la laaaaa La la la LAAAAA la la laaaaa! (just exercising my voice for Ree-head!)"}, {"response": 79, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (09:34)", "body": "Ouch! Seriously, we should form a pop group, Stacey! We could call ourselves, 'The Raving Screamers'\ufffd! I can only imagine what you must sound like, I know what I sound like - together we'd make the Cranberrys squirm! Come back more often, will you?"}, {"response": 80, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (17:53)", "body": "I'm with Riette on you coming back more often, Stacey."}, {"response": 81, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (00:03)", "body": "unless something's happened recently, she doesn't have access to one at school, and there's been that electricity problem at the house which could only be corrected by having more money. With all that said, I miss you terribly, myself, Stace..."}, {"response": 82, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (02:56)", "body": "thanks guys... miss you too. WER's right but it's more the job keeping me away. I'm still technically working two but one has just become outta hand stressful... can't sleep, can't smile, can't rationalize *grin*, can't get rid of my damn headache that seems to have lasted for days and days now... Mr. B is not amused by all of this either which in turn makes me extra miserable... (whine whine whine) Perhaps I should go back to singing?!?!"}, {"response": 83, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (07:09)", "body": "No, no, the whining will do just fine!!! Sorry you're having such a stressful time, Stacey."}, {"response": 84, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (23:27)", "body": "Yeah, your whining sounds like a kind of downtrodden singing, Stace. A powerful blues. It has real attraction. Dunno what's wrong with B. What's the stress with the job? Too stressful to talk about? I have this dumb job interview tomorrow. And somethin' dinky like that stresses me. I keep imagining that I'll lose control of my mouth. Tongue will start drooping out....then some burping'll start up, then some drool. My neck will get too heavy, and this head will kinda slam down on my chest. Pop back up. My eyes will be rolled up so high, she'll only see the whites. Then blam, my head'll fall back down. And I'll get hives....start scratching uncontrollably. She'll stand up and leave me there tossing and turnin' on the floor, and she'll say, as she goes out the door: \"This is really physically unattractive.\""}, {"response": 85, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (00:58)", "body": "At least you have to have all those things happen to you before somebody calls you physically unattractive. Some of us just LOOK the part naturally."}, {"response": 86, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (03:36)", "body": "*laugh* Thanks Jim for the grins! Yep. Downtrodden singing. Now I KNOW just how miserable I must've sounded! Best of luck on the interview tomorrow (today!) let me know how it goes! Is this the company up in Colorado that is going to relocate you to just down the block and around the corner? You'll be right next to that Thai restaurant I LOVE to frequent!"}, {"response": 87, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (18:11)", "body": "hope the interview has gone/goes OK! Riette, if you don't stop putting you down you'll have all of the Spring men pinning you down and doing unspeakable things when we visit next year ;-) *wicked grin*"}, {"response": 88, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (04:43)", "body": "Promises, promises! Blame it on a sick sense of humour. It amuses me to put that bitch down!"}, {"response": 89, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (04:45)", "body": "Interview with the Department of Criminal Justice: Interviewer notices I have clothes on. That gets me into the room with her and one other person (who's silent the whole time). Interviewer is stiff and formal. There are 4 windows to my left and their right---all I wanna do now is look out them. Interviewer stiffly reads from a sheet of paper, some words about how the interview will proceed. She finishes that part, looks up at me and asks if that is satisfactory. I wanna cry. I refrain. I don't say, \"Yeah, that's fine---does it get better?\" I am polite, though my stomach and all my connective tissue are linking up with each other and gain commitment among themselves to incur a body migraine that will harmonize progressively into internal hemorrhaging. She says she has 9 questions for me and begins reading the first one. I'm having flashbacks to when I was 9 years old and Mom was getting the popcorn ready into brown bags, rounding me and my 3 sisters up and Dad, so we could go out to the stationwagon and then head for a drive-in and see, like, maybe 3 movies or 2, as the sun was going down. I catch enough of the first question to answer it vaguely. At this point I can feel devas in the room who are communicating eagerly with impish nymphs who know me and my personal energy vortexes. I can hear or sense or feel the nymphs' delight as they tell me what a thrill it is to be in this situation so they can see if they can get me to blank out during a question. I ask the interviewer if she could repeat the second question. She asks me what kind of software I have used. I say, \"WordPerfect, Paradox, and Group something, and another called: MusicExpress, I think.\" I couldn't remember that it was GroupWise. And there's this software called SupportMagic, which I somehow managed to remember as \"MusicExpress\", which they duly jotted down with quizzical looks. Another slip-up I made was when I said \"to get a secondhand opinion\" instead of \"to get a second opinion\". But I just realized, as the thing went on, that I'm not cut out for that world---they have a seriousness I can't relate to. It's a place where things meet and cross along lines that contain depersonalized regimens. Rules against true spontaneity. Work over health and harmony. People looking like forced people in the workforce. People who need to pay bills and buy stuff and will go into this automatic automaton work world to get the money they want. Stress. And if they gave me the job, I'd take it. I'd be them. Have been before, and will be again. But at least I'd answer the phones (switchboard/receptionist job). I like how all I give to these kind of organizations is just my voice. I can be friendly and connect people, and not have anything to do with the goings-on and the decision-making. Be in it and not of it. My voice can be people-oriented, and I can just sound normal and sound like me. That's all I want....to sound the sound of the living. I was such a nervous wreck, I just drove home and stayed lying down for the next I dunno 5 hours....and I was feeling this pain inside that really needed to be attended to---if I hadn't given it some heed, it woulda maybe become a headache or tension against the body. That pain felt physical, very locatable, in my upper torso. It went away as I spent time with it---it was psychological/physical, and became muted. Externally, the interview probably went alright, y'know, basically, over all. Internally, it wasn't easy at all to recover from. But I more/less did. It's a weird joke, it's a weird sad joke on human viability. I felt like I perjured myself, like a living lie. I was bearing false witness through a whole interview was what I was. That's what I was, on the inside. Boy, that hurt. Interviews! I wish I coulda learned how to live, sometime way earlier in life. So I wouldn't have ever had to have one (an interview). When I got outside the door, and through another door, I was alone with the other person who was in the interview room and was the one who didn't say anything.....and I said \"so long\" to her. She said, \"Jim, your voice sounds so forlorn. It made me think of how we have another locale you may be interested in.\" I said, \"Really? I didn't know. Where is this other locale?\" She looks at this colorful food menu, then looks back up at me, \"Um, it's near Denver, very near Denver. Would you be interested in that? It's a small front operation that works out of a Thai Restaurant. I ate there once, myself, and the food tasted better than six, I mean sex, I mean having sex six different times all at once. You would be working the dishwashing machine, and we can stick a phone on the side of it so you can take a few calls every hour and talk the callers into feeling hungry. I really would consider it if I were you. I'd consider it for myself if I could work for that little money.\" \"I'm very interested. I could do that. It would work out much better for me. Sounds much less suicidal inducing. All the food I can eat for "}, {"response": 90, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (07:18)", "body": "oh goodie! You can try but you shall not be able to succeed in making yourself sick on Phad Thai Woon Sen with shrimp and tofu! It's just too damn good. And you'll be right across the street, because Leslie was probably just a little confused when she said 'Denver' as she really meant Littleton which is close enough to Denver to be Denver but far away enough that you don't have to live in the downtown itself which is far less nice than downtown Austin if simply because the size is out of proportion with my comfortab lity zone! Oh yeah!"}, {"response": 91, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (07:20)", "body": "sorry the interview was stressful... perhaps there would be a way to apply 'online', that would certainly suit you better!"}, {"response": 92, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct  3, 1998 (05:00)", "body": "And after that interview, if you do get the job - will you take it?"}, {"response": 93, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sat, Oct  3, 1998 (11:21)", "body": "or would you just pack up Jah and move to Denver for the hell of it?"}, {"response": 94, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Oct  3, 1998 (23:55)", "body": "I dunno which parent she gets it from, but that Tahja is pretty feakin' smart. Like how did she even have my number? It was around Thursday when I get this call, and answer it, and hear this: \"eeow waa Jah aaeeowe\" I'm goin' whaaaat? Then I think quick, for a change, and say: \"Excuse me, Ma'am, could you hold for a second?\" I heard a \"uhowww\", so I go to this bookmark: http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate ? ---and find out that \"eeow waa Jah aaeeowe\" means: \"could I please speak to Jah?\" ---so I get back on the phone and say: \"uuwee, iaa Jah\" [that means, \"sure, here's Jah\"] I'd grabbed Jah away from his food bowl by then and brought him to the phone.....I held the receiver to his ear. And soon, in a little while, he's talking into it. Him and Tahja are goin' at it for like over 30 minutes, and boy does my arm know it, so I lay the receiver down on the table, and let Jah figure it out. No problem---he lies on his back when he's listening (most of the time----I think Tahja has a lot on her mind), and then he moves over to the mouthpiece when he has something to say. The p or owners of Tahja, though---I'd hate to be them when they see their next phone bill. I'm glad Jah doesn't have that much on the ball--- like the brain, T.---so I won't have to worry about him making sure I'm gone before he calls T. or anyone else. One thing I am worried about is that somehow Tahja might convince Jah of different ways that he could try to get to Littleton on his own. But then he'll find out what it's like to live outside all the time, plus doesn't Tahja realize that Jah would also find out about Rafikki? Right now he doesn't know about her. He thinks Tahja lives alone with her owners (the translator helped me with the conversation me and Jah had about that). There would be the food problem, too. I really don't think he could make it all the way there, but I can't rule out anything that Tahja might have up her sleeve.... her fur. But I'd have to take the job here if they offer it. Need a State job so I can get 10 more years in and not have to work anymore, since I've got 15 down the drain already with the State. It would be super-tense at first. And I would count on whatever I have in me to come on through and be informal and friendly and deft and effective with my voice on the phone, as a switchboard operator/receptionist. A friend of mine once told me she really liked how I sound when I answer the phone at work (meaning I sound different once that's over with and I know who I'm talking to and why)---and I said, \"yeah, I like to put my best foot forward on the job.\" Been unemployed since I resigned back in May (team I was on had a change in team leaders, and the new one was abusive, so I walked), and my money's gonna run out about the second week into November---so the panic button is going off inside, but I'm still being pathologically passive about reacting to it, and I haven't applied much when I could have---so yeah, I'd take that job (it would at least knock out the need for going through anymore interviews, plus it would let me feed my face in November). Probably I'll have to get something for a while with some temp service, work some temp job for a while, till some State job finally comes my way. What really interests me in all this is the tension. Why do I feel tense? I think it's me, as much as I might say it's the formal, weighed down professional atmosphere of the workplace environment. So it's just a lifelong quest to find a way to break through my tendency to crumble emotionally. I'm immature emotionally and I self-consciously, very nervously cringe and flinch and cower at stuff that I judge as being either too much for me (a person who's too powerful in personality or position) or too off-putting. That job would give me lotsa chances to try to learn about this problem I want to begin to make some headway on, and mature emotionally, if only a tiny little bit---maybe that would make a big difference to me, to my life. And I want my voice to carry. I want it to convey a weightless, sparkling touch of unexpected friendly stillness and thereness for the people I'm transferring and connecting. I like tones, all the different ones that are available, the personal ones, the personal and limbered up rhythms that we can hear in all these different voices we have as all these different people that we are. It's fun to do some of those rhythms, the ones that aren't trying to be a ything, cuz they just happen, and no one can stop 'em from glancing sideways into the heart, by surprise, like when you first see the blue in the distant hills, that suddenness, or the ancient smell of some long- stemmed weeds, oy!.....it's very tender the way it unexpectedly lengthens you and reaches through you, or a boisterous stream making a great deal of noise while you are the only one there, how quietly it comes as you draw nearer, so gently that you're not aware of it, and then it just explodes wi h an immense massive d"}, {"response": 95, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Oct  4, 1998 (01:38)", "body": "I hope you get the job then, Jim - even though you don't sound thrilled with your kind of work. With your writing skills, why don't you use your weekends or evenings to pen a book? You have such incredible things to say - why don't you share it, and profit from a talent that is very real, very explorable, and which obviously gives you pleasure?"}, {"response": 96, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Oct  4, 1998 (19:11)", "body": "that darned cat!"}, {"response": 97, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Oct  5, 1998 (02:21)", "body": "Are you sure it's a cat, and not an alien??"}, {"response": 98, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Oct  5, 1998 (20:16)", "body": "no joke! at first, i thought it was the kiddo's....."}, {"response": 99, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct  6, 1998 (10:31)", "body": "Is it just me, or have you been somewhat quiet the past two days or so??"}, {"response": 100, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Oct  6, 1998 (13:35)", "body": "it has actually been pretty quiet overall here, i think."}, {"response": 101, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Oct  6, 1998 (21:06)", "body": "i have been quiet! been so busy at work with messed up shifts right now....anyway, hopefully will get more time to play at the computer! have been working on my homepage adding the appropriate spring links to different pages, making a poetry webring and trying to find graphics for that (which i haven't yet) would really like to find a full moon with a wolf howling in the foreground-where the wolf is superimposed upon the moon. it would be a black background with either a white or harvest colored moon (harvest is yellow to orange). i don't know how to do it myself so if you guys find something like that, let me know!! and yes, it's been very quiet over here, not just me....."}, {"response": 102, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Oct  7, 1998 (03:31)", "body": "Yes, I know. I'm probably guilty too. I feel pretty lethargic at the moment - approaching-winter-blues, I think."}, {"response": 103, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Oct  7, 1998 (10:47)", "body": "do you think emotional states such as 'the blues' affect physical attractivenss ? Like if you're down, do you find fewer people attractive, including yourself?"}, {"response": 104, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Oct  7, 1998 (14:32)", "body": "yes, indeed. if you mean \"depression\" by \"the blues.\"\" one of the symptoms of depression is an inability to experience pleasure (\"anhedonia\"). it is not too much of a stretch to hypothesize that either your perception of your attractiveness or of others is affected by depression, but i know of no studies off the top of my head that have looked at that. i know that in my own experience that when i have been depressed that my perception of my attractiveness plummets, probably because of the link in my case between depression and self-esteem."}, {"response": 105, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Oct  7, 1998 (16:38)", "body": "i think most people experiencing the blues at any level loses a bit of their self-esteem and perception of their body image. others pick up on our emotions and perhaps are affected by it as to their perception of us. for example, when you're down, people often ask if you're alright (perhaps not total strangers). also, when we are down, we don't care for ourselves the way we ought to. it has been studied that people who feel down dress in drab colors. so they suggest that to make yourself feel better, to dress in bright colors. others will pick up on that and respond accordingly."}, {"response": 106, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Oct  7, 1998 (19:23)", "body": "that is very, very true. dressing down in crab colors, not cleaning up, etc., leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy of unattractiveness, thuc completing a vicious, horrible circle. having an attitude change and forcing yourself to go thru the motions of happiness can do a lot to mitigate a depressive spell. it is nice if you have friends that ask if you are ok. but one of the things i learned about depression is that no one cares if you are depressed. over the years i learned to hide it or at least to express it in different ways, such as various self-destructive behaviors."}, {"response": 107, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Oct  7, 1998 (19:27)", "body": "my post above should have read \"drab colors\" not \"crab colors\" tho i guess crabs are kind of drab looking."}, {"response": 108, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Oct  7, 1998 (22:35)", "body": "depends on who's looking at them. most people have a fear of depression because they don't understand it. they think that depression is just a 90's expression for the blah's and the sufferer should be able to snap out of it. everyone has their own healing time and once you get into a depression, you have to let it run it's course. what i mean by that is to accept the fact that you are depressed instead of running from it. you know what i mean? allow yourself to feel blah and you'll be surprised how fast it passes. i know how hard it is first hand. and so other's aren't alarmed- destructive behavior is not just suicidal thoughts or burning your arm with cigarettes (i knew a guy who did that). it can be anything from eating too much, sleeping too much, putting yourself down, etc. etc. i think that what made my panic much worse to deal with was that i was afraid of it and thought it meant i was crazy. so i put thoughts into my own head from the power of suggestion- just from the questions the doctor would ask trying to find an answer for my panic. over time, i learned that my panic was a result of years and years of anger. i was so angry and this frightened me because my mind was full of \"supposed to haves\". you know--i'm not supposed to feel this way...but i learned that it's alright to feel even the darkest things-it's what you do with it--i'm not condoning those things, but, afterall, we are human. i can sit here all day and talk about why we become depressed (it's all over the t.v. and stuff) but it's not something to blame on someone else. it's a way we have learned to protect ourselves from whatever was causing us pain. but we are still responsible for our own actions. so do i blame my parents for causing me to have panic? no. did they contribute? sure, but i don't blame them nor do i blame myself. no one can make you feel a certain way. you are the one in charge of yourself. this is what makes us human beings and not human doings. i believe i've been through hell and back and God is the one who kept me from burning up. my version of hell may be different from yours but each of us have our limits on what we can deal with. God is what got me through the years of abuse and then the dark aftermath of dealing with it head-on. But i'll tell you what, i'm glad i made it through and learned so maybe someone else can too. (sorry for preaching). *hugs*"}, {"response": 109, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Oct  8, 1998 (16:41)", "body": "*beamz* darlin'"}, {"response": 110, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Oct  8, 1998 (20:14)", "body": "I think depression leads to chemical imbalances in the brain after the the depression has been going on for a while. I think the chemical imbalance can be re-balanced without the drug, not that that is the best way to go about it. These are just thoughts I'm having about it. They're not based on anything. So what about dealing with the depression directly, through the mind? I like the idea of doing that without using any positive thoughts or images. In depression, don't the negative thoughts gain strength and form a blockage, a pattern, a solidified circuit? Take the thought of considering oneself a social retard. That can become hardened into a recurring patronage that we pay to ourselves, with it's own accompanying mental penalty or painful feelings of woundedness and hurt. It can become a second sight, an attitude that we usually look through and consider normal for us. It's us. So, what if we become very aware that that's what's going on. That that's the dynamic at work. Then what? Then it's a matter of staying power. Can we stay with the pain while the pain acts on us. Can we stay with it while we get to know it---while we get to know what happens when---what thoughts flow from which attitudes and from which moments in the day, from which situations. Can we develop a listening sensitivity that has the quickness that's as quick as the attitudes are? Are we as quick as our attitudes? Do we feel them happen when they shift and foreshadow? How close are we getting to the real messiness of it? How much vigor and certainty and conceit it has. How difficult it is to watch each maneuver. Attending to these maneuvers brings about something that is what we experience all too rarely in our lives. It deepens our awareness into the precursors of our attitudes and habits. We allow ourselves, through this deepening attention, to make contact with the energies in life that have to do with health and change and balance. These are just thoughts I'm having, along with everyone else's thoughts. Where do our thoughts go next? As the conversation turns."}, {"response": 111, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Oct  9, 1998 (10:55)", "body": "Certain depressions for me are situational. And when I remove myself from the situation (or even look at it differently) I return from the black hole through which I felt I was sucked. Often times I return feeling refreshed, renewed and with a much brighter perspective on life in general but especially my life. But some people are unable to climb out of a depression by ridding themselves of a particular problem. And then they sink deeper. I believe a chemical imbalance can certainly take place during those times and what was once a simple case of the blues can metastisize into a clinical depression. Medication doesn't work for everyone but I also believe that, in some cases, it is quite nearly the placebo effect. If we are told by someone we trust that if we swallow a pill twice a day and it will make us feel be ter, sometimes the power of the mind can truly cause that to happen. I am certainly one of those people who benefits from the placebo effect. When I take vitamins, I feel healthier, when I don't I lapse into a borderline hypochondriac state. Drinking orange juice and echinecea makes the world right for me and I really think 75% of it is in my mind! The mind is so powerful. In a positive way and of course in a negative way. There are those whose depression seems to seep into them from no identifiable source. Or at least no source that the general populus views as deserving of such a depression. That is the power of the mind. I've never been on antidepressants but I've watched others take them religiously and swear by them. I don't believe pills have more power over a body than the mind but they seem to provide a catalyst for getting back on track that I find very interesting. Perhaps they do jump start a chemical reaction in the brain. Perhaps they do not. Either way SOMETHING takes place that inevitably leads to finding the light at the end of a long dark tunnel."}, {"response": 112, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Oct  9, 1998 (10:59)", "body": "And as a side note. I don't believe I can ever remain centered continuously. Falling off track, going deep and rummaging around in the inside helps remember what 'balanced' is. Anyone else feel like they have to lose touch with their ki occasionally to remember where it is?"}, {"response": 113, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Oct  9, 1998 (11:00)", "body": "(does anyone else feel like I am babbling uncontrolably?)"}, {"response": 114, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Oct  9, 1998 (11:14)", "body": "some medication is overused (i.e., prozac) as the cure-all for your worries. this is harmful to the many who benefit from just having someone to talk to and knowing they're not alone. they even prescribe it to kids who get down. it seems like all anyone wants to do is medicate and suppress. that's what i like about my meds. i still feel everything. i still cry, get down, panic. but the episodes are shorter and don't occur as often. i don't think that everyone has a chemical imbalance but for those that do, meds is what helps replace the chemical that is no longer being used. it's very complicated, to me. the thing that gives everyone a skewed perception is that nowadays, chemical imbalances are blamed for everything. kinda like if you kill someone while PMSing, it's ok. just like everything else, it gets genericized--like mickey mouse and dolphins and angels. everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon of the trends going on in their time--i.e., alternative lifestyles. it seems people use these trends as an excuse. i don't think anyone would tell a diabetic that their insulin is a placebo. not jumping on you stacey. i think that you brought up a valid point as to the general populace. talking about it helps to bring understanding to something that once was hush-hush. (and i know this goes for alternative lifestyles)."}, {"response": 115, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Oct 10, 1998 (03:02)", "body": "Is there a difference between wanting to feel better and wanting to understand how we got depressed? Maybe if we try to feel better and succeed, we leave ourselves more open to getting depressed again. Whereas if we understand how depression operates, we learn how to leave ourselves much less susceptible to being depressed, perhaps? But understanding something like depression probably couldn't happen through any strategy or tactic, I'm guessing (cuz I sure don't know). Noticing how it happens is very simple because it just means doing one simple thing---noticing. And noticing is awkward and formidable and challenging. It's simple and extraordinarily difficult. The mind wants to believe, because that's so satisfying. It wants to believe in positive and it will believe in negative. It will believe in believing or believe in disbelieving. Both are believing, and they satisfy. But both are unhealthy because they're not factual. Their purpose is to satisfy.....satisfy the mind, what the mind thinks it wants. But to be factual, or psychologically healthy, is to be factual. Which means to notice what's there, what's taking place, actuality. So what does the mind do during depression? That would be the place to start. At the beginning. And keeping it simple. Because it's going to tough enough as it is, even when we keep it as simple as it is. That's only, of course, if a person chooses to go at it from this approach---which could be way wrong. If someone wanted to go at it from this approach, they could do it a zillion ways, maybe, I dunno, but this is the way that makes the most sense to me. But not for severe depression. Severe anything is a different story. A person needs to have enough bearing, enough stability and coherence to begin to be simple, and to notice what's actually taking place behind all the behavior and moodswings and despondency. It takes a great deal of clarity with sharp quickness, that whole kind of vital discerning energy. One needs to be somewhat limpid and soft and looking. There needs to be some tenderness and affection for what one is going through. We need to relate to ourselves and our feelings. We need to really be with them and pay close attention. Listen with a quiet listening that carries and glides and soars on in to the heart of our deepest concerns. Just exactly how do those deeper concerns really operate and maneuver around? I'm thinking that there is alotta powerplay going on, alotta forcing going on. And it's hit a wall. And then denial. It becomes quite demanding, this whole conflict, this whole inner conflict. Lotsa pride. Lotsa woundedness. Lotsa irrational reactions that are happening so far beneath our normal level of awareness, that we don't know the extent of it. We can't feel it cleanly and clearly.....we don't know where it really is. We would rather either feel better or get our way or have things be different. We don't bother with this subsurface stuff except in a worrying, useless kinda way. We don't understand, we don't know about understanding. So we don't understand where any of this is really going on and what actual specifics are. To learn about this is to learn what the mind is. The mind may just allow itself to be revealed if there is inquiry. It may be that the mind wants to understand itself. It may be that depression wants to be understood so it can relax into transformation. Change, health, balance. What do you say? What do you think about this? Let's examine it further together..... It could curve into and crest around physical attractiveness and all sorts of personal goods. Once again, I have no idea what I'm talking about, and it's all based on intangibles, impressionable impressions, splashing sounds and a wash of grazing light that the cows left behind in the pasture this afternoon."}, {"response": 116, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Oct 12, 1998 (13:06)", "body": "Interesting question though... \"difference between wanting to feel better and wanting to understand how we got depressed\" I dunno. Both are pretty desperate quests involving much emotion and anxiety at times. Ideally after I discovered some of the 'triggers' to depression for me, I'd never fall victim to them again. But I do. I believe the mind can overcome diseases of the body and physiological boundries but the mind overcoming itself, healing itself, preventing itself from going astray... I dunno. (babbling again, to be sure!)"}, {"response": 117, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Oct 12, 1998 (20:54)", "body": "no you're not, stacey--interesting theories....i think the mind is more powerful than what anyone has ever imagined. to think of all the intricacies it's capable of. of course the mind can heal itself, but will we let it? the brain is a powerful organ and it has the ability to heal, but it cannot unless the mind tells it to. you know what i mean? you have to let go of your fear, have to believe....i don't know too much about the idiosyncracies (spelling???) of the mind and brain so i, too, appear to be babbling!"}, {"response": 118, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Oct 14, 1998 (09:08)", "body": "wolf, I guess that makes us babble-licious --- a higher form of physical attractiveness by anyone's standards!"}, {"response": 119, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Oct 14, 1998 (12:13)", "body": "I would have to concur on the whole babble-licious thingy..."}, {"response": 120, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Oct 14, 1998 (12:27)", "body": "yup!"}, {"response": 121, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (09:13)", "body": "LOL!!"}, {"response": 122, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (13:22)", "body": "Sonja here: What does that mean?"}, {"response": 123, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (13:24)", "body": "Me again. Does one say goodnight or goodbye or something when one goes away again? I'm going now - Ri\ufffdtte and I are going to drop water bombs tonight....that ought to cheer her up."}, {"response": 124, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (15:40)", "body": "LOL means laughing out loud (i used to think it meant loser on line). sometimes we say bye, but mostly, we just take off! y'all have fun....."}, {"response": 125, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (15:46)", "body": "the nice thing about this form of communication is that is it free of the constraints of time. it is just one long conversation after another. so unless you plan on being away for a long time (and worrying some of us half to death!) then there is no need to say ciao."}, {"response": 126, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct 16, 1998 (02:40)", "body": "Sonja here: Got it. I'll spank her for you. But in her defence I must say that she doesn't usually do this. I did, however make her promise to come later today - hopefully she will explain herself to you all."}, {"response": 127, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, Oct 16, 1998 (09:03)", "body": "she does not have to explain herself unless she wants to. i was worried because she did not show up and now i am worried about her current state of depression. i just want her to realize that a lot of people over here care about her and are standing by to help."}, {"response": 128, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Oct 16, 1998 (09:18)", "body": "I think we've all grown to love her."}, {"response": 129, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct 16, 1998 (11:08)", "body": "foolishly"}, {"response": 130, "author": "sonja", "date": "Fri, Oct 16, 1998 (13:39)", "body": "Defenitely! I'll just stop loving you now, okay? Did you see your background is contagious?"}, {"response": 131, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct 17, 1998 (00:58)", "body": "no, why?"}, {"response": 132, "author": "sonja", "date": "Sat, Oct 17, 1998 (13:06)", "body": "Are you being sarcastic with me, baby girl?? Or are you really too stooopid to notice that this is your background?"}, {"response": 133, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct 17, 1998 (14:54)", "body": "This is NOT my background!"}, {"response": 134, "author": "sonja", "date": "Sun, Oct 18, 1998 (05:01)", "body": "GIRL, I swear to God, every time I log in here, this conference has your art background."}, {"response": 135, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (02:43)", "body": "Really? That's strange. You really ARE bewitching my computer."}, {"response": 136, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (06:52)", "body": "We have a background issue here, and I can't even see it cause I'm telnetting in right now. Exactly what does this background have to induces such contentiousness?"}, {"response": 137, "author": "sonja", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (10:51)", "body": "WELL: It seems that when I log in, Philosophy has the same background as Ri\ufffdtte's art conference, and when Ri\ufffdtte logs in, it has another background. Interesting, isn't it?"}, {"response": 138, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (18:01)", "body": "And Terry, I'm in both backgrounds doing things like balcony diving and moshing and mushing (with my young huskies in northern Canada)---there's some really good animation going on here, I mean you can really tell it's me, and I sound like me even when I do"}, {"response": 139, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (00:35)", "body": "Wait a sec....let me fetch my 3-D glasses. WOW!"}, {"response": 140, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (01:43)", "body": "wowie zowie you are really groovy (got my 3-D glasses on, too, and there you are, now I can make you out---you're riding a cab through the Australian outback...of course that's Samuel Jackson, the cabbie, driving)"}, {"response": 141, "author": "sonja", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (10:04)", "body": "LOL!"}, {"response": 142, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (19:50)", "body": "Yes or no question: Do you find others more attractive with 3-D glasses on?"}, {"response": 143, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (19:51)", "body": "Qualification to aforementioned Yes or no question: ... that is when the other person is wearing 3-D glasses."}, {"response": 144, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (22:34)", "body": "Only when I'm looking in an electron microscope and that person is standing in the background, behind and slightly to the left of a friendly virus. It's pretty exciting though when we both take off our 3-D glasses, then put 'em back on, in that situation."}, {"response": 145, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (23:33)", "body": "that was part of the whole goofy thing, Terry... some confs sometimes use other confs rc files... sometimes they even use commented-out lines of html, as well..."}, {"response": 146, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (03:28)", "body": "I like looking at myself in the mirror with 3-D glasses on. I've always wanted to be green."}, {"response": 147, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (09:22)", "body": "i think we all look like dorks but that's what makes it so much fun. i don't think anyone's feelings are going to be hurt because someone laughs when you wear 3d glasses. i, on the other hand, look perfectly lovely in them (or so i've been told by others wearing them)"}, {"response": 148, "author": "sonja", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (10:55)", "body": "You do! *oink oink*"}, {"response": 149, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (17:45)", "body": "what can i say *heehee*"}, {"response": 150, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (18:22)", "body": "I didn't get one single YES or NO. I only got conditional statements. C'mon lay it out there guys!"}, {"response": 151, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (19:11)", "body": "Honestly, when I put on 3-d glasses, everybody looks good. That is because I can see about 5 feet without my prescription glasses and then everything goes fuzzy. One fuzzy blob looks just as good as another."}, {"response": 152, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (12:45)", "body": "But if I say yes or no, I feel like I'm giving into an over-generalization, and guess what---I'm prejudiced against over-generalizing. Because over-generalizing seems to come out of a prejudice. Which is like saying I'm prejudiced against prejudice. Which seems like I'm saying I'm prejudiced against myself..... since it means that I'm being prejudiced, and since I'm saying that prejudice is what I'm prejudiced against. Self-contradiction there. Which feels like an inner conflict. It would be one of many (inner conflicts). Therefore, Stacey, to answer your question: No, people don't look more attractive when they put 3-D glasses on. That's pretty non-conditional and laid out there. Ow. That really hurt. Can I change my answer now? Can I change the question?"}, {"response": 153, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (16:47)", "body": "Let the answer stand. Change the question..."}, {"response": 154, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (16:53)", "body": "Definitely, let's play Jeopardy!!"}, {"response": 155, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (17:00)", "body": "I'll take Pretentious Food for a thousand, Alex!"}, {"response": 156, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (17:48)", "body": "*laugh* gotta hate is when you're prejudice against yourself! and gotta love it when the remainder of the peanut gallery changes the subject so efficiently... all of this makes you all very physically attractive in a text based platform!"}, {"response": 157, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (18:51)", "body": "you always say the sexiest things...*blush*"}, {"response": 158, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (01:44)", "body": "Yes...\ufffdblush\ufffd."}, {"response": 159, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (04:22)", "body": "this does make for an interesting place to be with everyone blushing different colors."}, {"response": 160, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (01:16)", "body": "Yeah! I blush in blue on the net - blue's my favourite colour, so it's not quite such a pain when it happens here."}, {"response": 161, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (03:33)", "body": "Red is my favorite color, a real coincidence, considering that my birthstone is a ruby. anyway I like the color combination of electric blue and black. I also like red and black."}, {"response": 162, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (00:58)", "body": "Yes, I like those too. I like pure, bright colours, no pastels, because when you put them all together, it's like looking into a caleidoscope."}, {"response": 163, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (00:58)", "body": "I agree, With the exception of black, and white, which I use to set the colors off. I like really vibrant colors, like the florescent shades of pink, orange, green, purple, blue and of course, I like just about any shade of red"}, {"response": 164, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:32)", "body": "Exactly. Oh, DAMN! Please don't tell me you're an artist - I like you too much already."}, {"response": 165, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (20:36)", "body": "check it out! my attempt to motivate myself not to overeat during the upcoming holidays! http://www.spring.net/~ratthing/fatray.htm"}, {"response": 166, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (20:46)", "body": "whatever it takes, Ray! and, good luck... if it helps, you may e-mail all leftovers to me at kitchen_manager@juno.com"}, {"response": 167, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (06:39)", "body": "WOW, Ray!!! It really is amazing - and you know I don't do the flattering thing. You look totally different! MEGA ATTRACTIVE too!"}, {"response": 168, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (18:56)", "body": "thanks! I in dallas right now at my father in law's home, typing this on his WebTV! i hope all of you have had a wonderful thanksgiving as i have."}, {"response": 169, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (01:32)", "body": "Yes, so do I. We don't celebrate thanksgiving over here - the Swiss are allergic to holidays - but I hope you all had a great time. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 32, "subject": "My Day's Philosophy (9/29/98+)", "response_count": 83, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (20:43)", "body": "I had an ulterior motive for freezeing topic 28, which I forgot to mention. Today I spent a load of time printing out the entire conference, all 125 pages of it. It needs reformatting and things, but I had a crazy idea: why not have it printed professionally/semi-professionally and then everyone can have a copy? I don't know if that appeals or not, it was just an idea..."}, {"response": 2, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (21:09)", "body": "hmmm, i don't relish the idea of my thoughts drifting out to another medium besides this one. i know that sounds kind of narrow- minded of me. but to be honest, that idea does not sound like a good one to me and i really can't tell you why. maybe some more opinions here will help to flesh this out."}, {"response": 3, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Sep 29, 1998 (21:19)", "body": "i meant everyone in the sense of \"us\", not the whole world."}, {"response": 4, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (02:58)", "body": "sometimes copies tend to mysteriously multiply... let's take the ***** report as an example! Ha! We'd probably read something like it too!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (07:11)", "body": "They'd put the CIA on us - for all we know, we've cracked some conspiracy theories in this conference!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (12:53)", "body": "I think the copy most likely to replicate is the one right here! It takes a lot more effor to photocopy a 125 page document than it does to type: r 28 >>myday.txt"}, {"response": 7, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (13:11)", "body": "I'll be more careful about the things I say then - that way, if it filters out, everyone will think me sweetness and light...."}, {"response": 8, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (13:59)", "body": "HA! Too late! *laugh* (Home sick... got to sleep around 5am last night... by 6am I was in no capable working condition)"}, {"response": 9, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (22:16)", "body": "I don't believe in re-reading journal entries, so I'm understandably cool on the idea of having a copy. But I don't care if anyone wants to print it out and put it on their bookshelf. Isn't that big of me?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (22:58)", "body": "Bigamy? You, Autumn? And you really don't care? I mean dat's zary intellesting. I am going to re-read how you do/did that. I'll go right down to the bookstore and buy our conference report."}, {"response": 11, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (01:01)", "body": "What's the matter, Stacey? Have you got a flew or something? Whatever, I hope you'll feel better soon. \ufffdbig hug\ufffd"}, {"response": 12, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (03:38)", "body": "Thanks Ree-head. Don't know what I've got 'cept it's accompanied by a fever and a HUGE headache that no amount of Ibupropen seems to shake."}, {"response": 13, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (04:11)", "body": "Mental Note: Tahja only wants to sleep on my lap when I am typing on the computer."}, {"response": 14, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (09:26)", "body": "Can you blame him with all the slobbering and drooling and nose running? At least, when you're sitting, he has time to duck. In bed he just gets taken by that current, and is probably afraid of drowning, poor thing!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (10:17)", "body": "she. Jim has the boy kitty. But some very insightful observations there Ree-head!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (10:57)", "body": "can you touch your chin to your chest without it being excrutiatingly painful, stacey? how high of a fever are we talking about? (yeah, i'm a mommy)"}, {"response": 17, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (13:56)", "body": "It's not meningitis... but thanks for asking. I went to the doctor today... seems my headache and fever are two different items of concern. Fever... virus but placed on Zithromax just in case. The headaches are different. I used to have migraines years ago. I had been free of them for three years until last December when I had one out of the blue. Then I had another three weeks ago and since then a constant headache nothing seems to fix. The doctor believes they are tension headaches and has given me Midrin as well as a referral for physical therapy. I popped a Midrin and, as before, they do the trick but put me out of commisssion for hours at a time."}, {"response": 18, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (14:14)", "body": "Midrin never worked for me, and yes, the zombie feeling on top of it was no help. Caffeine is the only thing that gives me quick relief now."}, {"response": 19, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (15:33)", "body": "really? wow! (am glad it's not the big bad m-word, stacey). i've always heard to stay away from caffeine to keep headaches away. whatever works for you! i get tension headaches that do put me out-have been told by migraine sufferers that mine aren't those because my head hurts all over! but i get the visuals, am sensitive to light and noise, and nausea. so who cares what type of headache it is, it just plain hurts bad!!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (16:20)", "body": "Using caffeine to fight migraines is a homeopathic concept (like cures like). The caffeine cure only works if I maintain a caffeine-free status at all times (that I don't have a headache)."}, {"response": 21, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (18:13)", "body": "sorry you're not feeling well, Stacey - *BEAMZ*! I can remember when I thought that I had menengitus...never been so scared in my life! Well actually i have, but it was v. scary :) Being so ill I was incoherent and didn't know what was going on was quite an experience - normally I have to go to a bar for that feeling ;-)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (23:28)", "body": "The last time a doctor suggested meningitis, I went ahead with the suggested spinal tap. What a friggin mistake. Eight trips to the ER, sixteen fluid bags and eight caffeine bullus' later, I was finally given a blood patch to stop the spinal fluid from continuing to drain out of my head. Wanna talk about a headache... NOTHING else comes close to a spinal headache!"}, {"response": 23, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (04:46)", "body": "That sounds truly excruciating. And I hope this horrible headache of yours goes soon as well, Stacey. Have you had your eyes tested as well?"}, {"response": 24, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (07:54)", "body": "yuk, stace :-(("}, {"response": 25, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (11:24)", "body": "Hmm, wonder what the plus is doing in here: Topic 32 of 33 [philosophy]: My Day's Philosophy (9/29/98+) Response 24 of 24: Mike Griggs (mikeg) * Fri, Oct 2, 1998 (07:54) * 1 lines See the plus after 98?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (12:25)", "body": "i put the plus there to indicate that this is the My Days Philosophy Topic for 9/29/98 *onward*"}, {"response": 27, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Oct  3, 1998 (02:23)", "body": "Gottcha+"}, {"response": 28, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Oct  3, 1998 (11:53)", "body": "my gosh stacey, that's awful!!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sat, Oct  3, 1998 (16:24)", "body": "my headache is gone, gone, gone today and no Midrin!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Oct  3, 1998 (22:36)", "body": "great news, stacey! let's hope it lasts."}, {"response": 31, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Oct  4, 1998 (01:39)", "body": "Yes, just do alot of relaxing and sleeping and recovering before you go back to work."}, {"response": 32, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Oct  5, 1998 (20:17)", "body": "glad the headache went away, stacey!"}, {"response": 33, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Dec 26, 1998 (19:28)", "body": "I hope all of you had a wonderful Christmas. I sure did! My fiancee and i were part of the midnight mass held at the san fernando cathedral in san antonio. i was a beautiful service and the church was packed full. it was a very traditional mexican ceremony! on christmas day we drove an hour due west to my hometown of uvalde to spend the day with my crazy family. all of my nephews and nieces were at my parents house, and there were toys and babies everywhere. we enjoyed a lovely christmas meal of ham with all the fixins, and tamales. i helped my 3 year old nephew daniel put together his new toy: a hot wheels car wash. he had apparently been asking for it for months and he was beside himself with glee at haven gotten one. it is really amazing to witness such pure and simple happiness. it makes you remember what the important things in life are."}, {"response": 34, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec 28, 1998 (14:31)", "body": "glad you had a great holiday Ray... (and I bet you were a beautiful service! *grin*)"}, {"response": 35, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Dec 28, 1998 (15:12)", "body": "It sure sounds like you had a nice Christmas, Ray. That's great. We are still rotten with flu, so we skipped church this year. But we had alot of pancake, fondue and other stuff to feed the body, if not the soul! What did you do, Stacey?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Dec 28, 1998 (15:14)", "body": "Oh, and we did Chris up as Santa Clause. I thought he was very convincing indeed. But Isa took one look, and said, 'Don't think you fool me, Daddy-oh!'"}, {"response": 37, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec 28, 1998 (16:20)", "body": "I had my first Christmas away from my family... kinda difficult."}, {"response": 38, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Dec 28, 1998 (16:31)", "body": "and you made it. one day, you'll enjoy having christmas in your own place. not to say that you'll never want a big one with everybody around. our christmas started at oh dark thirty (around 5:30 AM). i got out of bed at 7:30 and didn't get back into bed until midnight. those kiddos were nuts with christmas. we spent part of the day at our house then the evening at a friends with her family. it was really nice to be part of that (it's the kids' sitter) and she is so wonderful. she and i went after-christmas shopping on sat. and had a wonderful time (and we had to tote 3 kids with us-my daughter and her two granddaughters AND they behaved th mselves--unbelievable!!) it's nice to be adopted into their family."}, {"response": 39, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Dec 28, 1998 (16:45)", "body": "hey stacey, i hope your christmas went ok anyway. i'd hate to be away from my familia on christmas, no matter how crazy they are!"}, {"response": 40, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Dec 29, 1998 (02:08)", "body": "Wolf: I have to say I also prefer Christmas away from family. I mean I miss them, but the biggest family fights were ALWAYS on Christmas. Haven't spent Christmas with anybody except Chris and the kids for four years now, and wouldn't want it any other way. It's nice to be just us. I guess it also comes from being away from the rest of the family most of the time. One just doesn't feel quite so at home when you're at home. Whereas things are just so familiar and easy with my husband and kids. I gue s it's called the easy way out! Stacey: You sound very close to your family. That's nice. Do you have brothers and sisters too? Older or younger? Will you be spending New Year with them? Ray: You sound like a person who should have 10 kids someday!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Dec 29, 1998 (09:20)", "body": "i wish we could! but we are already too old, so have to settle for one or two."}, {"response": 42, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 29, 1998 (09:37)", "body": "bah, you're never too old to have kids (well, then again, i'm thinking of that grandma who had something like quads) ree: exactly, i hate family squabbles and i enjoy christmas with just my kids and hubby (and that's how we've had them for the last 5 or so years)...."}, {"response": 43, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Dec 29, 1998 (10:42)", "body": "Ray: YOU ARE NOT OLD! From your photos you look about 30 - that is NOT OLD! Wolf: Exactly. At christmas I always wonder where all those big family squabbles always came from. It just always seemed to bring out the worst in everyone. You know, like after about two drinks the accusations would start flying, and the confessions to affairs, and the 'I never liked you anyway!'s. My parents seperated at least 3 times that I can remember after such a christmas thing! It's hilarious when I think about it now, but the quietness of christmas with Chris and the kids is a nice luxury! ha-ha!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Dec 29, 1998 (20:16)", "body": "You're old, Ray. Disgustingly old. 5 years ago you weren't even 19! What's the matter? You used to be the youngest person here. Now you're probably the oldest by far. I just hope you don't take it out on anyone in your family around this time of year (wait until February). Yes, participate in the age reduction genetics experiments. Rediscover your youth.....find it quick. The older you get, the more it upsets me. Now I have a migraine. I will wear rubber gloves if I ever meet you. And I will walk around like a Caribbean land crab with a buncha broken-down movie queens to telegraph to you how low you've sunk. C'mon Ray, pull yourself outta the deep end of delirium. Get yourself back into the teens, at least. The horror that you could be over 20. Think! Think harder!! Make your move! Please, Ray, stop letting ALL of us down like this. Your face is actually wrinkling before our very eyes. Get a grip. And stretch it.....your skin has gone to heck and not back. You are just incredibly old. What a sorry sorry SORRY situation. I'm beside myself in pain. I'm behind myself in anxious woe. I'm under myself in a deep grave of pity for you. And to think I used to believe in you. I thought you meant it when you said you wouldn't age another day. And that was back when you were 18 and we were all so hopeful here for you. Such a pity. Look what you've become! Are you a monster? I am so hurt!!!"}, {"response": 45, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Dec 29, 1998 (20:34)", "body": "when i was 18 i was 155 lbs of mexican love machine. now i am 34, and the mexican love machine needs a lot of priming nowadays. glad to see you back jim!!!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (02:33)", "body": "And you call yourself old??? Silly bugger! Love machine, hey? When is Jim going to have access to Inner?"}, {"response": 47, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (11:35)", "body": "he said he tried and got denied... who's in charge here?!?!??! *grin*"}, {"response": 48, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (12:18)", "body": "thats weird, i did not hear anything about that."}, {"response": 49, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (13:19)", "body": "ahhh... I am the ALL KNOWING... are there any other questions you have for the great Pasquina??"}, {"response": 50, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (17:40)", "body": "It happened like this: A few weeks ago I sent an email to Spring's server administrator at webmaster@spring.net because I got an internal server error when I tried to access the Inner Conference. I sent the server administrator 2 emails saying I got the error and wanted to access the Inner Conference. No response. 5 days later I emailed Terry about getting access to Inner, and I included the error message. He responded the next day and said I should be able to access it now. I tried to, and got the same error message, and mailed him about it. He responded the next day by asking if I had shell access. I emailed him saying, \"I bet that's it. What's shell access? What is a shell?\" No response yet. It's been 2 weeks. It's not that I've been denied. Just some communication breakdown. Something as likely as.....how often emails are deleted by mistake or something like that. New plan of action is, since I'll be getting my second paycheck (at this new job) on Tuesday, I'm a-gonna put in the mailbox today a check to Spring for $120, then, on Monday or Tuesday, I'll email Jeff with a copy of the above scenario and request access again to Inner. A wait-and-see situation. Terry works 12 hours at his job and he's not even the appropriate person who I should contact. Plus I may have possibly annoyed Terry by saying \"I bet that's it. What's shell access? What is a shell?\" --- instead of saying something like, \"No, I don't have shel access\". It could have been anything. It could've gotten lost in the shuffle. And I could've chosen to respond again, and just didn't......feeling I would just go ahead and wait and try now the new plan of action. That's \"the\" story, through my hazy eyes."}, {"response": 51, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (18:49)", "body": "Aw, Jim, I bet it's an honest mistake...I'm in inner, and I don't have a shell, either. What is your new job?? (*imagining a lot of exotic/bizarre occupations*)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (19:21)", "body": "I push this boulder up a hill and see if it can roll back down over me. No, it's something worse than that. I'm a data transcriptionist tech, so they say. Actually I think I'm more of a Spring reader participant, at this job, as much as anything. Lotsa free time, hours of it every day, until January, when the state legislature kicks into session. Yeah, I feel it's an honest mistake, too.....maybe mine.....or nobody's.... When I think of you, Autumn, it gets exotic/bizarre, too.....chalk it up to coincidence......again."}, {"response": 53, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (20:30)", "body": "it is an honest mistake, jim. i have admin rights to all of the system here and sometimes have problems like that too. terry and all of us that work to run the spring do it on the side, so a lot fallw thru the cracks."}, {"response": 54, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Dec 30, 1998 (21:37)", "body": "that lends some nice perspective, Ray. appreciate it, and I understand. it's cool"}, {"response": 55, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Dec 31, 1998 (01:26)", "body": "Life gets bizarre sometimes, doesn't it?"}, {"response": 56, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 31, 1998 (03:27)", "body": "not mine... nope. never *smile*"}, {"response": 57, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Dec 31, 1998 (21:01)", "body": "HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THe party animals at Spring Central should be having a good time right now! Stella and I will be spending tonight with the family and cats."}, {"response": 58, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Jan  1, 1999 (00:52)", "body": "As soon as I repay the millions of dollars I stole from the senior citizens living on the moors and meadows and prairies of the Arctic Circle, I will sit down with my cat in a gondola in Venice and share a beer with him. Good. Glad I got that transaction outta the way with their attorney. Lotsa firecrackers going off now, here in Venice.....have been for the last hour and a half. Kids (the 5 year olds) are screaming with each loud bang. Blind monks are tripping, falling into the canal over here where we are passing by. Bodies are hanging outta windows of livelier parties, inhaling more helium. Different kinds of songs are starting up now, the kinds that have lotsa laughs going on in them and hiccups. Drunken would-be thieves are being caught and scorned by mothers of octuplets. 23 centuries of unchecked donkey births are also now entering into the behavioral tics of the adolescences of very sensitive teenagers I'm observing along the way. Jah's noticing them too. Jah, my cat. Money for banana panties is being thrown up in the air and being caught in the nostrils of second story onlookers perched on their balconies. It's practically all unconscious. None of it'll be remembered in the morning (or afternoon, I mean). Oh, over there, 2 cupcakes resting on a tongue. Everything is bouncing around.....\"Jah, could you stop rocking the boat.\" He gets like that when he's had one too many."}, {"response": 59, "author": "wer", "date": "Fri, Jan  1, 1999 (12:26)", "body": "try inner again, Jim..."}, {"response": 60, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jan  1, 1999 (13:12)", "body": "My Day's Philosophy. Hmm...now what would that be? My body is wrecked at the moment following a cold, headaches, dizzyness, nausea, nosebleeds and a cough, i haven't eaten a meal for a week, i have a screwed up wisdom tooth that is making the whole of my face throb and rather comically explosive diarrohea. i'm about as depressed as I've ever managed to be, and can barely even manage to find the energy to get out of bed, let alone do something about it. However. Before Christmas I bought a nice new jumper. I got to wear it last night, and I happen to think that it looked really good. So that's My Day's Philosophy. Buy a nice jumper, feel good about yourself."}, {"response": 61, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jan  1, 1999 (14:08)", "body": "sorry the new year's not off to a stellar start for you Mike... groovy 'bout the jumper though! I'm lost to some today... I've squirreled myself away in the black regions of my mind... kinda of a downer day... Perhaps I should go by a new jumper!!!!! (Welcome to 1999 everyone!)"}, {"response": 62, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Jan  1, 1999 (14:59)", "body": "Mike, just as a positive first step, how would you like to wear your jumper to the dentist's office (do you have insurance?)? Being attended to will do something nice for the depression, and your throbbing pain will say goodbye to you....but WE won't.....we will always say Hi to you. People you know, have they been more sympathetic toward you since you've been pretty ill? When people care, that's kind of a good feeling, eh? And then feeling a little bit better each day....as your body improves some..... Pretty soon you'll be back to your old self. It's really something to be out of action during some good times, and still not be thrown by it, while something else is going on that you gotta contend with and go through. One thing it does is gives you perspective. So many back off from good times even when their bodies are healthy because little things get to them and blow up into big things on their own, then they get depressed. Emotional baggage gets to so many people around this time of year, too. And there's nothing wrong with them physically. Then there are those who are in car wrecks caused by them and someone dies. Happens to some on Christmas eve. That's way beyond depression. There's this guy at where I work at, and his name's Mike too. I saw him on TV, some news bit that went national. It was some pile-up on the Interstate (freeway/highway). About 59 cars. His was one of the first. He watched his truck get pounded into again and again. He said there was a semi that somehow went through all of it without stopping by threading the needle, and it was unbelievable that it didn't jackknife or hit anything. Then, later, there was this car that he saw fly over his head --- a drunk driver went through the barrier at 65 mph, took off when his car and part of the barrier hit the first car he came to, and sent his car flying 100 feet in the air. That's when the cops said for everyone to cross over and get out of there away from and off the interstate, instead of staying there inside cars or trucks that could still start and still had heaters working. They must've been on the upper deck of the interstate, since at one point he said he crawled out of his window when that door was against a side wall, and the other doors were against another car, and when he crawled out, he was looking down on a 30-foot sheer drop, but he swung around okay and helped the other person out who was staying warm with him in his truck. He saw the young woman who died in the wreck, and said she was really beautiful For 2 hours they all were out there going numb freezing before the police would let them go. His parents were upset with him because he didn't call them to pick him up there to take him home, and he said, \"Yeah, right, like I'm gonna call them out onto the same roads that has this kind of danger to life going on.\" It must've been like 3:00 in the morning, cuz he said all he wanted to do at that point was get back to work, since there was something there that he could lie down on, there was warmth, and food, and it was only 20 blocks away (whereas he lives 40 minutes away out in the country) But his face wasn't throbbing and he wasn't physically sick. But he said it was just 2 nights ago that he didn't hear smashing glass and metal when he tried to go to sleep --- then he said, \"Not hear it, I mean SEE it, more than hear it.\" The nightmares have stopped, and they would wake him up and he couldn't go back to sleep. But when he was talking about the whole thing, he seemed calm and humble and very cognizant of all the details he was relating to us. WER, you did it, just like that. I'm in now, in the Inner Conference. You're good!!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Jan  1, 1999 (15:21)", "body": "Oh, look who jumped in there, without her jumper, while I was off writing to Mike: Stacey and her black regions. I've always had to leave my black regions when the Almighty Pasquina would go in there and drag me out, unbidden. She always knows where I am. Well, she doesn't drag me. She sits with me. She has said, on more than one of those occasions, \"Jim, couldn't you slip-slide your way into a feeling of being with your blackness like I am being with you? Just listen in to the mind currents as they flow against the ebb, loosen your way into the feeling that is underway, it's there, wanting more from you.....couldn't you be with it and hold it for some time.....watch what happens.....something very nice will, I promise.\" It's true. And a new personal folklore issues forth. I hear the wind again, and it hears me. It's all in keeping with a deeper abiding mirror of life. And I hug you with that, Stace, ol' girl, and Mike, ol' man oh man...."}, {"response": 64, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Jan  1, 1999 (16:34)", "body": "there are problems with the dentist. Firstly, it's located on the university campus and is hardly ever open. Certaily not open again until Monday. Secondly, the dentist that I have had before is an absolute monster - I never, ever used to have a problem with the entist before I let this man loose in my mouth; now I haven't been for two years. Last time I went in, I had to be helped to stand up when I got out. The man's a butcher. The other thing is that when I was ill, nobody really gave a fuck. Not my mother, not her husband, not my sister, not my father to any great extent and only very slightly his wife. Why is that? Because I don't fucking matter. I always suspected that was the case, and now it's been proven. Triffic. I have worked out finally what the hell all my depression is about, and the problem is essentially insoluble. Shit. Life is not fucking good, and not fucking worth it."}, {"response": 65, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Jan  1, 1999 (17:00)", "body": "let me get back to you on this..."}, {"response": 66, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jan  2, 1999 (00:34)", "body": "I could almost agree at this point in mine."}, {"response": 67, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jan  2, 1999 (03:42)", "body": "you'd better tell us what's going on, ree....."}, {"response": 68, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Jan  2, 1999 (03:56)", "body": "Yeah, Riette, we're hearing ya.....what're you feelin'? What're you goin' through? I see what you mean about the dentist, Mike. How does this sound? Go to a pharmacy and say, \"I can't see a dentist till Monday and I'm throbbing in pain. What's the best thing you've got that I can buy for it?\" Or try this, it would be better: Call a doctor today, if there are any you can call, and get a prescription from them for the pain. Oh, and on Monday, when you see a dentist, would you like to change dentists? Is there a way to get a good recommendation on one who doesn't cause problems for you? Depression can seem insoluble. One of the toughest things in life. And when we're depressed, we can very easily feel like we're not worth much. And it looks like you're saying that it feels to you like almost no one in your family can care about you right now. So if that's true, would it be okay for you to see them as just not having the capacity to care right now, for whatever reason, or for whatever limitation that they have? We do care about you. Because you relate to us in a very interesting way. And we relate to you and feel things about you that are pretty good things when we think of you and when we're in contact with you by seeing your responses. We like you because you feel alot and you express it quite openly. That does alot for us. It's an exchange of life. It could've been that you would never have been in my life. When I think of that, I can feel the difference. The difference of knowing you and not knowing you is live and tangible, very real. It matters. I can always count on you to say something very interesting and in usually surprising ways, in ways that sorta wake me up and make me blink in a refreshing resurgence of recognition. Because I recognize the realness of your emotions and personal challenges. When things go wrong for you, it really means alot to you. We can sure feel that. And that means you mean mucho to us. It's kinda nice to know that scorchingly complicated difficulties are all a part of life. We wouldn't want it to be smooth and uniformly pleasant. That would be worse than depression. It'd be as bad as \"The Truman Show\" (probably you haven't seen that movie yet, though). When I'm surprised by stuff that happens to me, and it really gets to me in a negative way, my emotions can consume me and I need to get some release from that. I want something to happen, y'know, and just the opposite is what happens. Depression comes in when there's a change in the direction of how I start to think about myself. I feel how limited I am. I start thinking in that loop that thinks like that, and keeps re-looping. How insensitive I am. How much of my life I wasted. How little I matter. And the feeling collects more emotion around it and folds in on itself and I feel cornered and trapped by this whole strange internal course of psychological events. There's tremendous pressure and tension and compressed tightness. I'm a tight ball of confusion and raw thwarted despair. A sinkhole of fallen wounded troubled exhausted weakness and resentment. I try to get release by understanding it. Everyone has there own way of getting release from depression. Some like to head off to a stream, a creek, a river, someplace alongside it where they can be really alone. Some like to talk about it with someone who they feel it's worth talking to. Some really deeply ask for mercy and compassion, a warm embrace from someone they trust or can trust or can get to trust. There're tons more ways: going for a horse ride, a car ride, cutting out some time to get away and do nothing, dance, music, poetry, phone calls, eating out or eating in with a friend in candlelight simplicity and gentle energies, sports, rock climbing, sketching, a long walk, being with pets, a movie, writing in a journal, doing something real interesting that has been put off for a long time, traveling, reading about how it can be dealt with, counselling, going to a playground to be around kids. A gazillion more ways. My way is to try to understand it. It's not a good way if it's felt to be not a good way, though. But what I do is listen in with my emotions to my emotions. I feel depression is mostly a feeling thing. It seems like I've been hurt by a mixed-up series of thwarting experiences. Seems like the hurt has built up a bunch, inside me. So I know it's gonna be a while. I know I'm gonna be listening in to it for a while. It'll take some time for it to soften up and reel out and release. It happens, but it takes patient care on my part to give it the chance it hasn't had to unwind, shake out, and let be seen what hasn't come forward yet. Stuff still needs to come forward that hasn't. The thicker denser emotions that are knotted up in a beaten twisted snarl. That stuff needs my own compassion before it'll unfold, untangle. It has to feel okay first before it'll come out. And I want it to. It's scared, like a child who's been forcibly taught to not be seen or heard aro"}, {"response": 69, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jan  2, 1999 (14:31)", "body": "Thanks for writing, Jim - just to know that somebody is reading what I'm saying is a help at the moment. The problem I have now is that I have worked out, after 20 years of being me, and probably twelve or thirteen of working on it, exactly what has upset me for so long. I know exactly what it is, and I know that it is essentially insoluble. And that's a pretty terrible thing to realise; so much so that I don't really know what to do now. There didn't seem much point in getting up this morning, so I d dn't - seemed more sensible to stay in bed, despite the fact that I wasn't tired. I don't nkow..I'm not giving up yet. Maybe I just have to give myself some time, like you said, to work out that life doesn't revolve around me."}, {"response": 70, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Jan  2, 1999 (14:39)", "body": "OH yeah, and I got some good painkillers for my tooth!"}, {"response": 71, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Jan  4, 1999 (00:20)", "body": "I like writing to you. You're pretty interesting....I'll read every word you write, with interest. So I know I'm gonna always like to write to you. I didn't know whether that mattered that much to ya. I thought there was a good chance I would only aggravate you. Didn't wanna do that. Knowing exactly what has upset you is a great milestone to reach. You put alotta time and hard work into it too. Is this something you mind me doing? I mean, do you mind me asking you what it is? What it turned out to be? The thing that upset you? Way to go with the painkillers. I do that alot, keep lying in bed, not feeling much point in getting up. And, I dunno if it's like this for you, but I like lying there daydreaming and wondering about things. I do this alot --- I'll sit up on the sofa (that's my bed --- I sleep on the sofa) so I can wonder even more about things....more consciously and deeper. I like thinking how there's more point to that than a point to getting up and doing things, which I can do later anyway --- of course, I'm not very pressed for time, either.....that's another factor."}, {"response": 72, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jan  4, 1999 (11:35)", "body": "hope you feel better Mike... the words Jim said... they're true for me too. I dunno if they're true for everyone but I thought, if they're true for him and true for me and maybe true for you... then you're certainly not alone"}, {"response": 73, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Feb  7, 2036 (03:39)", "body": "Things are getting gradually better. I have stopped hoping for so much out of life, which has turned out to be a positive thing. I think I have kind of accepted that I@m not going to feel wonderful - or even just OK - some of the time. A lot of the time. I am trying to avoid the things that upset me, simply by not thinking about them. It's not like \"repression\" or anything, it's just refusing to allow myself to become upset by things that can't be changed by me or anyone else. Ah well...I'm still we ring my happy jumper, too, although it needs a wash tonight.:-) Roll on Life."}, {"response": 74, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Feb  7, 2036 (04:52)", "body": "What does the jumper look like?"}, {"response": 75, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Feb  7, 2036 (06:23)", "body": "never forget that you are in control, mike. i think you are starting to see that!"}, {"response": 76, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Feb  7, 2036 (03:09)", "body": "it's black, woollen, nice v-neck. i knew it was perfect the moment I set eyes on it. It's a really nice cut."}, {"response": 77, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Feb  7, 2036 (05:03)", "body": "Black, wollen, nice v-neck. Okay. I'll go find one tomorrow. You think they'd let me into the men's department if I wore a black cap?"}, {"response": 78, "author": "PT", "date": "Thu, Jan  7, 1999 (04:21)", "body": "They would probably let you in no matter what you wore."}, {"response": 79, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jan  7, 1999 (08:56)", "body": "That would be awfully nice of them."}, {"response": 80, "author": "osceola", "date": "Fri, Jan  8, 1999 (10:28)", "body": "My Day's Philosophy: My supervisor and co-worker both called in sick today, and I'm the only one in the office. We're not busy at all here because the semester hasn't started yet. I mean ABSOLUTELY NO ONE has called or come in for the last two days. So I'm gonna screw around on the internet all day, between here and the utne discussion groups (where I also hang). I'm gonna look up some recipies at www.topsecretrecipies.com and see if there's anything worthwhile. Then I'm gonna take a looong lunch at a beer joint down the street (yes, they have food, pretty good Louisiana cookin', if I feel like eating). Then I'm gonna screw around on the net all over again all afternoon. Then I'm gonna close the office early, get groceries and beer and hang around th house all night playing the stereo loud and watching some TV. Life ain't bad today :-)"}, {"response": 81, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Jan  8, 1999 (11:03)", "body": "have a blast!"}, {"response": 82, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Jan  9, 1999 (01:23)", "body": "Good to see you, George."}, {"response": 83, "author": "wer", "date": "Sat, Jan  9, 1999 (01:27)", "body": "Yes, it is...did you find anything good today, George? philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 33, "subject": "Dreams", "response_count": 100, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (12:56)", "body": "Good topic! I've got a classic one for you. It's from...um...three nights ago. I'm on a beach, with a group of other blokes, and I think we're all related to the military somehow. Saddam Hussein is keeping us semi-hostage, in that we can't leave the beach and are being asked all kinds of questions. However, it's not like being tied up or anything like that. Saddam goes into the water near the beach, and we decide to take the opportunity to kill the bugger. So, one of us piles into the water behind im and starts to stab him with a knife. Saddam turns around and asks us not to, and I realise that we've failed to kill him and he's now realised that we tried to. We're therefore going to be tortured or something, which is terrible. Right at the end, before I made myself wake up, I heard one of the guys screaming \"he's cut off my finger!\" or something very similar. Haha....crazy :-)"}, {"response": 2, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (13:22)", "body": "WHEW!!!! Can anyone here interpret dreams? I'd sure love to hear what the above one means! My recurring half nightmare is always one with snakes. I have no fear of snakes when I'm awake, but in my dream I have to go through this door, because there is a dog or a wolf or some canine creature growling and barking visciously at me, and I have to escape. But in front of the door lies a snake, and around the handle there is also a snake. I somehow manage to get through the door, always do, the room is a safe haven, and I lock the door behind me. Then things start moving around in the room. At f rst the beautiful colours and shapes fascinate me - until I realize that they are all poisonous snakes, and I cannot find the key to go back through the door. At the end of the room there is a kind of light, as if one would get out of the room if you could manage to reach it. So I run, I hide from the snakes - but so far I've never managed to reach the light. I assume it has something to do with letting the past go, and dealing with the dangers of the present in order to reach the future. So, not a ve y weird or romantic one, I'm afraid."}, {"response": 3, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (13:45)", "body": "sounds like you interpreted your own dream, riette!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (14:53)", "body": "cool dream, Riette :) Does anyone else here dream lucidly, when you can realise that you're dreaming and then kind of direct what happens? it happens to me all the time (probably more often than normal out-of-control dreaming) and it's really quite strange."}, {"response": 5, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (15:22)", "body": "i am on 40 mg of prozac per day. whenever my the concentration of prozac in my body changes (either by being off it for a while or getting back on it) i usually have very vivid, lively, really-feel there sorts of dreams, and i think i can control them a little."}, {"response": 6, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (16:33)", "body": "I didn't know you were taking Prozac, Ray. Is it any good, does it help?"}, {"response": 7, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (17:54)", "body": "it has changed my life. i finally got tired of riding the depressoin roller coaster and about 4 years ago decided to see a psychiatrist. she prescribed prozac and my life has changed for the better. i don't get depressed over the stupid things i used to get depressed over, and my self-confidence increased exponentially. you will be able to easily find 10 people who say prozac has done them no good and is even evil. but for me, i love the stuff and have no intention *ever* of going back to being depressed."}, {"response": 8, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (18:06)", "body": "is it like a long-term thing, or do you gradually reduce the amount ?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (21:36)", "body": "i attempted to get off of it about 2 years ago. some 3 months after my last dosing i was sitting at work thinking how worthless i was and how i wish i was dead. then i thought, \"waitaminnit! why am i thinking these things!!\" a few more weeks convinced me that i needed to be back on prozac. my girlfriend at the time als noted a distinct change in my behavior. she said i became more moody and short-tempered. there are many different forms of depression. i feel that the form i suffer from should be renamed \"Central Serotonin Deficiency Syndrome.\" The problem with my brain seems to be a lack of the neurotransmitter serotonin. to me this is analagous to a diabetic, who lacks pancreatic insulin, or someone with hypothyroidism, who lacks thyroid hormones. both diabetes and hypothyroidism produce listlessness and other symptoms that might be viewed by others negatively (\"He's just lazy\"). the same may be said of the symptomology of depression and the stigma associated with it. the upshot of all of this is that i believe that i will be on some sort of serotonin-enhancing medication the rest of my life, just like a diabetic on insulin. this is ok by me. i would do *anything* to avoid the hole of depression."}, {"response": 10, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (21:48)", "body": "Sorry to interrupt. Don't mean to (it'll be interesting to hear, Ray, your reply to Mike). A part of a dream from last night: I was lying down somewhere I'd never been before---felt like Europe and felt like another time, perhaps 1800's.....and I've never been to Europe. By my head was some sort of horizontal, oblong-shaped cylinder. Sticking out of its opening was some stuff. The opening was maybe 2 1/2 feet by 2 feet. Maybe papers were in the opening or maybe a rolled up mural made on a roll of construction paper. Prolly not, but closest my memory can come to remember it. This person I know comes over to the cylinder's opening and removes the stuff. I'm looking up at him from out of the slightly reserved, then more unreserved gaze that was innocent but affected by him and sorta going out to him with my eyes. He simply turned and walked off, while he was talking. I couldn't make out what he was saying. I thought I knew he was talking to me, though. But the thing was, his voice started trailing off as he talked. And it wasn't because of the distance he was moving away from me. It was because his voice, on its own, was growing less and less in volume (and would have sounded like it was getting less and less even if I had been standing right next to him). And he was talking to me as if he wasn't talking to me. It was like he didn't know me at all and couldn't care less about me. Which was the weird thing, because I could tell he was talking to me and knew me. It was like some alien psychological condition I'd never run into before. And it was intensified because the dream was presenting me with this dreamlike quality of being able to be in this knowing contact with him and what was going on with him close-up, even though he wasn't close up. Space or distance was like everyday life, at the same time that it wasn't. It felt like some form of telepathic feeling or awareness was going on. And that felt quite normal since it was dreamtime. But it sure did intensify the mood and atmosphere and the freakish effect his freaky way had on me. There was this real potent sense of being abandoned, plus being just so bewildered (in more ways than just feeling abandoned) by the way he did it. He was wearing a tunic.....with the hood up over his head.....er, no, it was down....that's right, it was down."}, {"response": 11, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (21:51)", "body": "Ray, you got your number nine in there before I could finish my number nine, so my number transmogrified into a actual ten."}, {"response": 12, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (21:58)", "body": "we were both hacking away at the same time!"}, {"response": 13, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (22:10)", "body": "i skipped over a bunch of responses, but i'll go back and catch up. wanted to applaud ray for his intelligent words. i suffer from panic which is in direct relation to whatever chemical i cannot make anymore. and you know what? a year ago, panic (or anxiety) was finally recognized as a medical disorder. like, no duh!! and taking those pills do indeed help. i'm on zoloft which works for my panic even though it's an anti- depressant. some people, it doesn't work for. just like prozac. and i had to explain to people that if they don't have a problem with epileptics and diabetics taking their medicine everyday, they shouldn't have a problem with my doing the same thing. and i don't care if it's a damned sugar pill, it works for me. i still feel panic, i still get the blues, but i'm better able to control them and i have had breakthrough panic attacks, but this is normal for anything. i went off of meds three years ago and the attacks came back. i feel really good about myself (emotionally) and have been under a tremendous amount of stress (my trigger) and have been able to control how it affects me (thank God!!) it took my husband a long time to accept it. he no longer asks me to snap out of it. i did go into therapy about 4 years ago and learned ways to help myself stop being such a control freak and perfectionist. i learned to be a human being and not doing (just like i told you and mike). and you know what? it's great!! so i'm proud of you, ray. you decided to not allow depression to control your life and you are fighting back. *hugs*"}, {"response": 14, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (22:23)", "body": "Glad to hear everyone's empowering themselves. I dream all the time but am really bad at seeing the symbolism in my dreams. Like you, Mike, my awareness is heightened at times and I can direct the action, decide who/what will manifest next. Also, my mind occasionally wakes up before my body does in the morning--what they call \"crash landing.\" Do any of you experience this?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (22:48)", "body": "My plane lands upside down with all the windows open. What gets sucked out the windows is nothing but symbolism. My body starts tossing and turning like it wants to join in, but it just can't....it just can't wake up. It goes on like that for another 6 or 7 hours. My mind can only just lie there waiting and oozing with lasagna, trying to make that darn body smell itself awake. Nothing works. I'm going to have to go back to college, I guess."}, {"response": 16, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Sep 30, 1998 (22:53)", "body": "\"Glad to hear everyone's empowering themselves.\" not me, hehe..."}, {"response": 17, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (01:08)", "body": "Does that mean I still get to be your mistress? What sort of dreams do you get, Wer? When I dream it's also quite vivid, and I've experienced the crash landing and controllable dreams too, but at the moment I'm not dreaming at all. That is because I'm not sleeping. Silly business."}, {"response": 18, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (03:45)", "body": "Haven't been sleeping much but have had the privilege to experience some real live bonified fever dreams. Lots colors, people I've only barely met and their faces whooshing around. I was stuck in this alley trying to get into a door that wouldn't open for me. Down the alley comes running all of these 'acquaintance' type people. They can't see me. They look scared. There I am just yanking on this door. It was kinda neat in retrospect, I remember being able to feel them passing by, a bit of wind generated by their urgency to leave the alley. That's about the only one I can remember from today... been lolling in and out of consciousness for most of 24 hours now."}, {"response": 19, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (09:28)", "body": "That sounds pretty horrible - go to the doctor if it gets any worse, will you? Flew can be dangerous."}, {"response": 20, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (09:28)", "body": "FLU, that is! ha-ha! NOW who's semi-unconscious????"}, {"response": 21, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (10:19)", "body": "okay... I posted this one over in Screwed Dreams (where it probably belongs) BUT since I took the time to type it out and all... This conference gets the post too! ******* After being roused by the low pitched rumble of an approaching trash truck (for which I had inadvertently forgot to bring trash out for), I jumped out of bed, trotted behind the house and dragged the garbage to the front in the nick of time. And then the reality of what was sitting on the back of my mind, what had been so rudely interrupted by the grumble of the trash truck, came into full focus. I had been in the middle of a dream\ufffd a freaky one. Considering I am soaking now in sweat, I shall consider it a fever dream as well. Picture the Ms. America contest; picture the bikini contest, the formal gown competition and then picture one contestant competing by previously taped testimony, er performance. Yep, there's Hillary Clinton, modeling it up with the best of them. She's fresh, she's smiling, and she's in the running! And then the creative performance. Focus on the base of a wide elegant Tara-esque staircase. Carpeted down the center with enough end marble exposed for an excellent tap dancer to grab a few notes here and there. And so it begins, Ms. Clinton begins her top tapping in a floor length, high slit silver gown with those classic high heeled strapped tap shoes. And then I'm realizing she is signing. I can barely hear the words but her body language is telling the whole story. She is back. She is telling HER side of the story. She is skipping the lewd and malicious details but letting the world know that walking all over Ms. Hillary Clinton is NOT acceptable. Once she has toe tapped and side stepped to the top of the staircase, she stops. The lighting changes and she begins singing a ballad, a love song\ufffd again the words are difficult to hear. She is sad, for herself only a little but especially for her daughter. The young woman who had to reveal all of her awkward years to the eyes and unkind mouths of a discriminating (and discriminatory) public. Hillary walks us through the large building that we eventually discover to be the White House. She croons through the rooms showing the public her private domain, not as the focus, merely as a backdrop to her words. She returns us to the stairwell and stops. The music grows dissonant then stops and Hillary is transformed into a thespian of gigantic proportions. Her soliloquy rolls angrily over past wrongs but slows to concentrate on righting a bad situation. She yells, she screams, her hair gets mussed and yet she still looks stunning. \"I refuse to be a pansy. I am a woman, I am a mother, I am a fighter and I am the ex-first lady! I HATE you **** *******!\" And she runs down the stairs, across the hallway and\ufffd The cameraman obviously stunned by this addition to the script wobbles only slightly in his cinematic genius and soon discovers Ms. Clinton dancing and singing again atop the roof of the White House. A crowd has developed and she has reclaimed her independence, her pride and her unsolicited title of role model to women. And then, in the corner a man. Downtrodden and sad, grasping to a pipe distending from the roof (some sort of chimney I suppose) turns his head and the public catches a glimpse of the former Ms. Hillary as a legitimate tear rolls down his cheek."}, {"response": 22, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (18:16)", "body": "cool! you really feel for Hilary and Chelsea, dont you? :-))))"}, {"response": 23, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Oct  1, 1998 (22:32)", "body": "I'm the only non-African-American in this one, which I had this afternoon, and everyone else in it is African-American (if I'd been lucid, I'd a asked if we coulda reversed races....I like to ask first) So I'm out there driving on some two-laner I'd never been on. Middle of the day. Nice day. Stuff had happened before this point in the dream that is related (can't remember any of it). I see a woman by the road, she's just outside her car, and she's extremely upset at somebody---can't tell who....I mean I can't make out who. Oh, that's Latrice (the upset woman). I wanted to call her Lulu while I was dreaming her (I know 2 very different Lulu's, one's 80---my mother-in-law--- and one's 1 year, 2 weeks---she's Bahi and Diana's kid (I rent from them, & they live in the house, front yard, and I'm back in the backyard where the garage is). When I see Latrice/Lulu, I want to stop, but don't, but I start to think about her---she seems so emotional that she seems unstable in a somewhat threatening way, cuz she's really furious and there's something raw about her, something coarse, and disturbing---yeah, raw and disturbing. Oh, okay, no, it's not Latrice, just someone who looks like her. Latrice is someone who I used to work in the same building with. She tried to seduce me and I should've let her---if only I had---why didn't I? Anyway, so there I am driving on this hilly two-laner, and I'm coming down this small hill and there's \"Lulu/Latrice\"'s car in front of me, this time in the middle of the road. I see her getting into her car in a fury and I see this guy, who's like dressed up kinda good, he looks good, he's in his mid-or-later 20's, and he's out there on his knees, not ready to get up yet---I can't figure what's goin' on with him, though---it's like he'd just gotten pushed outa the car and rolled a little ways---but I don't think that was it---and he was out there in the other lane. So I keep driving and \"Lulu\" keeps driving right in front of me about 40 feet. Then she pulls over and gets out and starts heading off away from the road. I pull over and get out. She's not looking at me at all. I'm looking at her and am burning with desire. I follow her to this spot about 70 feet from the road. She's bending down in this wide furrow in the ground. There's this body there that's very strange, because it looks like it's been there a while. It's this guy who looks about \"Lulu's\" age (about 30) and he's tied up and not moving and his clothes are like white prison clothes, except they're not prison clothes and they're tattered and very aged-looking and they look like they've been in the ground for at least a year---his clothes made me think that he used to be a slave like a hundred years ago. I look at his face and his teeth and his chest and it's like, with each second, I can see him more clearly, and he's looking more and more alive or something---his teeth look whiter, his face looks darker and more bloom is coming to it oh so gradually, and his chest looks in virile good condition, undecayed. So I look at \"Lulu\" and ask very gingerly, \"he's....is he your brother?... he's alive....\" He still hasn't moved, and I can't see his breathing, but wasn't looking for it. And she's looking off in another direction, while still squatting down--- it's like she's wary of some circumspect and dangerous people---I got the feeling they lived on that land.....and her silence was sinewy, like her. So I look off in the direction she's looking, and quickly look back to her to see what she's gonna do about me, and her \"brother\", and them.....but as I'm looking back, I wake up. But as I'm waking up, the dream stops, and then restarts while I'm semi-conscious, and I slightly more consciously dream that I want to tell her that I want to be totally honest with her, so I say, \"I want to be real honest with you---I felt nothing but desire for you when I saw you get out of your car, and I know this is crazy because you don't know who I am and so why did I do this....why did I stop, get out and come over here?\" And then my mind sorta blinked or something, and the next thing I see is her pulling a gun on me and I say, \"I've never had a gun pointed at me before.\" And she says, \"And I've never had a gun pointed at you either.\" It was then that it came to me real strong that she was very mature and aware and capable and inclined to make things happen and get things done. She had a rugged, substantial personal force, and she had visible grace, and that was just breaking through, powering clear through, very fast into my mind.....and that she wasn't unstable at all....she made sense....except there was a gun on me, she had that gun on me."}, {"response": 24, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (04:54)", "body": "Gosh, you guys have interesting dreams! Very interesting. One type of dream I hate is the naked dream. You know, where you stand in a lift full of people, and suddenly realize you're naked; people try to look normal about it, but they stare. And there's no way you can cover yourself up. Disgusting."}, {"response": 25, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (07:21)", "body": "I like being naked in my dreams. It's kinda like being at a nude beach, your inhibitions (about being naked) seem to come off with your clothing and then you're just really glad to have nothing on."}, {"response": 26, "author": "wolf", "date": "Fri, Oct  2, 1998 (10:01)", "body": "yeah, and in my dreams, no one cares that i'm naked and i'm extremely self-confident. but naked dreams indicate exposure of some kind in your real world (at least that's what i've read). my naked dreams aren't that way. i dream about being the hero and stuff. i'm always the one who knows what the hell is going on. don't remember any dreams i've had the past few nights....."}, {"response": 27, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct  3, 1998 (05:02)", "body": "Really! Wonder why I feel so vulnerable in naked dreams....well, with a body like mine, who can blame me!! ha-ha! Still no sleep, still no dreams here either."}, {"response": 28, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sun, Oct  4, 1998 (01:17)", "body": "Here's one: Had this yesterday. Still remember it. Usually I forget 'em if I don't try to remember 'em soon enough after they happen, or write 'em down, which I hardly ever do, except now, in this topic. I'm in this car which I'm driving. Only thing is, I'm in the back seat. And there's no driving wheel (what are they called? oh yeah: steering wheel) or any other controls back there. What am I doing? I'm lying down on the back seat, driving this car by looking up out the windows and trying to gauge how to keep us from hitting anything. Meanwhile, the car keeps moving right along, and there are 2 people in the front seat--- they don't respond to me---here's what I want them to do: turn around in their seats, reach down toward me, and lift me up so I can see where I'm driving, from back there in the back seat. It's like they don't hear me. I don't know who those 2 people are....I think the one on the right is a man, and if I remember right, I think he was wearing a hat.... I think the one on the left was a woman, but maybe not. And I don't know how I'm able to drive the car, either. Oh, I forgot to mention, I can't lift myself up---it's as if I'm in that state you were talkin' about, Stace, where your mind is awake but your body is still asleep and will remain inactive, motionless....if that's what you were saying. So I'm getting pretty scared, thinking we're going to crash any second, and should've already. The car keeps moving along at regular speed, probably 40 mph, in town. As we start to descend very very slightly, my visual vantage point changes---I am now seeing things from outside of the car while also seeing things from inside the car---they somehow superimpose within consciousness (and I didn't ask how....good question for the dreamweaver or sandman). What we were very gradually descending turns out to be a paved concrete road that's about 25 feet wide, and it went straight down the beach into the ocean. There's beach on either side of this road. And lots of people out for the day enjoying the sand, the sunshine, the ocean. And lots of people out there swimming, and a bunch of people surfing too. As the car gets closer and closer to the ocean, like 60 feet away, 40 feet, 20, 15....what happens is the ocean starts to change. It gathers in size with frightening speed. It just keeps getting taller and taller into this tsunami wave that's like 70 feet high. All the people on the wave are or have lost their wits, their minds, cuz they know they're gonna lose their lives. And this lovely dumb car just doesn't do anything but keep heading right for that tsunami. I can't do a thing about it. Plus, the whole area is getting so dark, and the water in the wave looks dark, a dark aqua green. Nothing but sheer dread consumes me. Last bare moments of life. The car drives right into the very foot of the curl. And then it hits. The car is under the full weight of the impact. And guess what happens? Nothing. Nothing is felt at all. The car keeps its shape. No water gets in. The car is surrounded and completely inundated in ocean, and is still right there where it was standing on that spot on the shore, didn't move an inch. And that's when I woke up. Another tiny dream fragment I had, same night, was: people were out in somebody's backyard, nice day, very expansive yard, probably half an acre, well-kept, lots of nice looking lawn chairs and round lawn tables with umbrellas attached to them---it was an afternoon party and most everyone was wearing mostly white....and they all seemed to be in a pleasant mood, enjoying this well-attended, casual party---it wasn't swarming with people at all---they were spread out very nicely, lotsa room, lotsa space. I'm at a table and looking over at these 3 people standing a few feet from me who are have a light conversation about: well one of them, and I think she was a lady from the 1890's, she said that her drink, and she held up her martini glass up to her chest, just a little higher than she was holding it, she said this drink was a such- and-such kind of dream.....meaning that the drink was configured or mixed with certain bio-designed or genetically engineered or whatever, ingredients, to create a particular dream for her after she drank it---maybe it wouldn't get going until she went to sleep whenever that might be later on that night."}, {"response": 29, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Oct  4, 1998 (01:44)", "body": "What cool dreams!"}, {"response": 30, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, Oct  4, 1998 (19:17)", "body": "a couple lack of control issues there? But see, nothing bad happened... everything's going to work out just fine. Not that I could gather that information by reading your relayed dream of course, and of course you couldn't gather that information by merely dreaming your dreaming. No, no, no, some very intelligent being, a near seer (a recently acquired 'gift' -- probably due to the trauma she experienced with her dibilitating headaches)knows the truth, the what may come to pass, the like-it-or-not... and Jim... everything is coming up roses! (well maybe not till next Spring because of the impending hard freeze and all but, nevertheless, roses it shall be!)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Oct  5, 1998 (20:31)", "body": "cool, you dream in color. i have a lot of dreams where i'm trying to see what's going on. it's like someone keeps putting something in front of my eyes but no one is there and i keep tearing at this stuff to see. hmmmm.... the other night, i dreamt that my husband had drawn up plans for remodeling this house. it was beautiful. he thought of everything and after he showed the blue print to me, i sat there peering at it. slowly the thing came into focus where i could understand what he had done and i woke up praising him for his genius. (i think this dream is directly related to the fact that my husband spent all weekend-a week ago-putting down laminated wood flooring in our living room. he was criticizing his work and i told him that he had done a great job and that i loved it!)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Oct 12, 1998 (00:11)", "body": "It starts out in New York City, Greenwich Village. I'm walking alone, shopping for farm equipment. Each \"store\" I go into turns out to be an art gallery. I go in about 5 of 'em. The people looking at the art are very talkative and they all sound like farmers from the Bronx. What is more peculiar is while one person is talking, the person they're talking to is miming something I can't figure out. Now I'm just going into stores to see the miming, completely forgetting my original intention of buying farm implements. Finally I go into a store that turns out to be a farmh use, that, when you look out the window, you see lotsa land spreading all around you. It's a nice farmhouse, real comfy, a staircase, nice size living room, and it's wintertime in some state that feels like North Dakota. The heat is on, I can feel its warmth. There are 2 parents, mine, who feel like grandparents, look like grandparents and are 2 people I've never seen before---but they're very parental in a casual country sorta way. I'm sitting down at the kitchen table talking to Maggie. She's talki g to me. I'm looking closer and see she's not talking to me at all, but to the TV that's on, behind me a couple feet. As soon as I realize this, there's a tremendously sudden change in the room. It all becomes videoized. I feel like I'm in the middle of a scenario that feels very very technologized, like from the future, but very well coordinated like I knew it would come off ok without worrying about anything like whether I'll remain forever a video of myself, or whether I'll get turned off and be go e totally from existence in an instant. Now when I turn to Maggie, she is looking directly into my eyes without seeming to see me. I say, \"Maggie, am I here?\" She says nothing, continuing as she was, very calmly looking into my eyes without losing a very focused, alert, but relaxed look. I look to my left, turning my head sort of slower than I usually would. Maggie says, \"When you look over there, you will see nothing.\" She's right. I see absolutely nothing there, but there's no static. I look dow in front of me at the table surface and my head falls to land sharply on the table, but I feel no pain and hear no sound of impact. I'm getting the kind of sadness you get when you hear a song that is like no song you've ever hearrd, one oozing with soul, meaning and a strangely lonely discontent. My hands hang down between my knees. I feel utterly, exhaustively helpless, motionless. I sense her sliding her fingertips along the table, using just her right hand, moving it from her left to right. Just like that we are back from videoizing. I look into her eyes; she is centered, self-contained, and she's looking into mine with a feeling beyond human scope, seeing another me I've never known, which is the full me of extensive expansive nature, opening right now. She's incredibly selfless, recognizing my new learning and knowing. My being is orienting itself for the launch into that same realm of consciousness she's in, but it doesn't happen and I wake in tears with a growing kind of gratitude, even so like the surnrise creeping over the horizon, broadening, widening, filling out with light, intensifying sight, or insight. Dreams are energy visions, sometimes---they seem to twinkle like tiny stars.....the night sky is almost undressed. Do you want any? Here it is again.....only this time it's one of your own standing in. The dream is coming....it's coming at you....it's coming for you....it's coming to you to you yourself youing all the you you can you....nighty night, dreamy dream dreamers."}, {"response": 33, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Oct 14, 1998 (12:15)", "body": "good night, JohnBoy"}, {"response": 34, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct 16, 1998 (02:42)", "body": "Sonja here: Why does my sister call you the mafia man?"}, {"response": 35, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Oct 16, 1998 (12:34)", "body": "my winning personality and/or the fact that I work in an Italian restaurant"}, {"response": 36, "author": "sonja", "date": "Fri, Oct 16, 1998 (13:40)", "body": "OH! Where does she come up with these things, I ask you."}, {"response": 37, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct 17, 1998 (00:59)", "body": "That was a long time ago!"}, {"response": 38, "author": "sonja", "date": "Sat, Oct 17, 1998 (13:08)", "body": "Yeah? So how did you come up with it back then? I mean, what could possibly induce a person to make a connection between 'kitchen manager' and 'mafia'????"}, {"response": 39, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct 17, 1998 (14:55)", "body": "I can't remember, actually. I think I saw him in a dream or something, and he wore a white had, and smoked a cigar, and so I thought he must be from the mafia."}, {"response": 40, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct 17, 1998 (14:56)", "body": "hat, that is"}, {"response": 41, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Oct 17, 1998 (22:52)", "body": "In all my dreams of wer, he's holding the white hat in his left hand. The cigar is in the hat, lit and giving off smoke. Little puffs would come up out of the hat and I thought they were smoke signals. According to my dream dictionary, those particular puff shapes are to be interpreted as: I am Indian, not mafia I am Indian, not mafia I am Indian, not mafia I am Indian, not mafia I am mixed-blood Chickasaw in fact I just saw that chick coming back into my wiggy wigwam"}, {"response": 42, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Oct 18, 1998 (01:09)", "body": "ha-ha!!! Poor Wer! I had a really interesting dream last night - would've loved to have had an interpreter here this morning. It started like this: My children's doctor (who is a woman) phoned me up, and asked me to come in straight away for treatment. She couldn't tell me on the phone what my illness was, said I had to trust her. So I went in. Turned out I had to have my head shaved otherwise I would die. Naturally I preferred having it shaved. And as I was sitting there, waiting to have my head shaved, there appeared a bagel-man. I have no idea what a bagel-man is, but this one was pushing a trolley with sandwiches. He offered us some, but th doctor declined, and sent him away, which made him look rather depressed. I looked out the window, and saw contructions and a great many construction workers outside. I asked the doctor whether they were building a new building or what. She said no, she only enjoyed looking at their backsides, and whether I would like to go out and feed them. I said sure, so we went outside and fed them lettuce. (I guess that's the guinnea pig connection.) She finished shaving my head, and I went home. I went into the bathroom, and there he was: the bagel-man. He had commited suicide by hanging himself upside-down. I panicked. I had to do something with him. I knew, I didn't know how, but I knew for sure that it was my fault for having refused his sandwiches. I knew that I was his murderer, and that I had to get him to a police station. Then I saw a lorry outside - one of these huge, long roundish fuel carrying lorries. I asked the driver if he could give me a ride. He said yes, and we put the bagel-man on the roof of the truck. The minute it started moving, we were in an endless desert, which I recognized to be the Namibian dessert. But I had to get back to Switzerland to report my murdering the bagel-man, and did not know how. And suddenly, as we were driving, and as I was struggling with myself, the bagel-man rolled off the roof, and fell to the ground. I jumped out of the lorry, and saw it dissappear in the distance. I ran back to the bagel-man. Another big lorry like that came rushing past me, but didn't stop. I knew I had to catch up with one of the lorries so that I could get back to Switzerland. So I ran along in the direction that I'd seen the first lorry go. I didn't have to run far when I saw it parked at a station of some kind. I went into the restaurant to phone the Swiss police, to tell them I had killed the bagel-man. But the bagel-man was waiting for me inside the restaurant, and he had a gun. He shot me at point blank range, which made my ear hurt a little, and which made me wake up, my fingers around m ear and crushing it!"}, {"response": 43, "author": "sonja", "date": "Sun, Oct 18, 1998 (05:03)", "body": "How very Freudian! You're one disturbed mama!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Oct 18, 1998 (21:42)", "body": "i had a really weird dream too. we were in a white room that had a sunken floor. the windows were on one wall and kind of high. we had just received a shipment of new furniture (gee, where'd that come from?) and a coworker and i were rehanging pictures on the wall. it turned out, these pictures were cross- stitch pieces i had worked very hard on. the other bits and pieces were original artwork by ordinary people. the co-worker and i were having some trouble arranging the pieces and someone (who just popped in) wanted to argue about where a particular piece should go. i started to holler at him that i had put 5 years of my life into this piece. then my boss shows up and says that she wanted the furniture to be easily moveable in case we needed to rearrange (that and the furniture bit came directly from work--we have new modular system furniture that can easily be rearranged). and then some little old lady comes in admiring the artwork. i remember thinking what a nice gallery this could be. that on the side, we could open the place up for people to come see the work. and then i woke up....."}, {"response": 45, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (02:45)", "body": "Nice dream. Furniture and nice works of arts don't even drop into my lap like that in my dreams!!"}, {"response": 46, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (06:55)", "body": "I dreamed I was on a train last night with my sister, Alice, Samuel Jackson and Sonja. Samuel Jackson was the bad guy. And before that we had quite a scene at a tire repair place with the daughter of an ex girlfriend of mine getting busted for stealing tires. And I got stuck with a $249 tire repair bill after they had to stay after hours to fix the tires. Samuel Jackson ended up dead."}, {"response": 47, "author": "sonja", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (10:53)", "body": "Wow! ME Sonja? And since it looks like everyone else had something to do, I dread to ask, but did I kill Samuel Jackson???"}, {"response": 48, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Oct 19, 1998 (21:05)", "body": "No you didn't, It's unsolved. And more on the tire thing later. Have a friend over now."}, {"response": 49, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (00:00)", "body": "The daughter of an ex got mad because the tire place did a lousy job so she took some tires off a new car and put them on ours, then hid so no one would find her. She was fighting the injustice of a rip off car dealer. Sonja was on the train. The Samuel Jackson part keeps getting hazier."}, {"response": 50, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (00:37)", "body": "I wonder where our brains come up with these things. I mean, how did Samuel Jackson and my sister slip into your unconscious mind AT THE SAME TIME??"}, {"response": 51, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (01:30)", "body": "Samuel and Sonja were twins in a former life. And it was fairly recent (19th century Italy). You were their next door neighbor, married to Terry. The train was rolling through Terry's dream and it simply decided to do something about it then and there. Besides, that night the train tickets were only 5 bucks for two. And sleep came easy and was extremely delicious for Terry. I'm only reporting the facts. They reflect in the mirror and shine through the night."}, {"response": 52, "author": "sonja", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (10:07)", "body": "I'm not sure how likely that is though - not the bit about Samuel and me; that could defenitely be the case. But Ri\ufffdtte and Terry? Because he'd have to be seriously middle-aged for her to become a future ex...."}, {"response": 53, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (12:49)", "body": "LOL!!!! (oh, and for your reference, Sonja, ROTLMAO means.....well, you figure it out!) interesting dream (and analogy-leplep).... the only celebrity i can remember entering my nightvision was Bruce Springsteen- i was young and had a crush. we were trying to save a school. he did a charity concert and i was invited to sing with him (gee, wouldn't have anything to do with that video with courtney cox)....we were very close friends. oh, it also had it's own sponsored-by ad as bruce and i got a coke from the coke machine. haha! remember that dream like it was yesterday."}, {"response": 54, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (03:30)", "body": "LMAO too!"}, {"response": 55, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (09:29)", "body": "last night, i dreamt that i had gone grocery shopping and packed as much stuff into my car as i could. then i went to a hotel and checked into a room. started unloading my car and while placing things in the fridge, noticed the room had not been cleaned and it looked like someone was sleeping in the bed still. funny, because i had been alone the whole time. so i went to the front desk (which happened to be in the restaurant) and later learned that this wasn't the front desk after all. i started frantically explaining that there was this little chinese man (how i knew this i don't know since the guy was all covered up in the comforter with no identifiable body parts peaking out from underneath) in the bed and--just then everyone looked out the window and the little man was off and running (wearing green pants and a tan shirt). anyway, i must have become bored with the dream because it ended then and there. haha!!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "sonja", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (10:57)", "body": "Why don't I ever have such weird, interesting dreams? I wonder if I dream at all."}, {"response": 57, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (12:55)", "body": "I dreamt about surfing last night :-//"}, {"response": 58, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (16:32)", "body": "Mike, it looks like your nose is the surfboard riding this one wave with another wave coming in behind it, and your eyes fell off the front of the board, cuz it's surfing from right to left. You really dreamed that? Your nose was the surfboard?"}, {"response": 59, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (17:48)", "body": "where'd you get the nose thing? i missed something there!"}, {"response": 60, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (20:30)", "body": ":-// Didn't miss much. And Mike's nose probably didn't miss out, either, on a nice ride in the middle of that first wave there on the left, coming in to shore. I guess it's just some kind of concrete poetry that's not on concrete....it's on the ocean."}, {"response": 61, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct 22, 1998 (03:24)", "body": "Or in the ocean for that matter - never to be seen again! Woosh!"}, {"response": 62, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Oct 22, 1998 (09:43)", "body": "shark infested waters, too!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Oct 22, 1998 (13:24)", "body": "Mike without a nose and eyes ever again? Are you guys saying it was an unfunny and insensitive thing for me to do, maybe because Mike's eyes drop off, and because it turned Mike's nose into a surfboard? My graphic use of his graphic use of keyboard notation marks was offensive? Is it never seen again and eaten by sharks because it was something you wish I wouldn't try again? Just want you to see how I jump to conclusions, so you can set me straight on what was really going on. That way I can learn how to interpret what might not work in the future, and I can learn how to interpret my own interpretations (conclusions I jump to) in the future. I also felt like not keeping it inside me, the wondering I was wondering about. I'm not trying to pressure you, I'm just wanting to learn. Pressuring doesn't work, right? That's how I feel. Yes, yes, let me know if you feel I'm over-reacting.....and could you say why? You might be bothered by this----that it's a nag to have to worry about every little thing we say, if it's going to bring this kind of reaction (my reaction). I just don't think it happens that often, but when it does, it can be seen as something that's helpful and good ---cuz it clears up some confusion for me, at least, and can hold me in good stead for interpreting future similar situations. Any hard feelings? None from me. Just curiousio...."}, {"response": 64, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Oct 22, 1998 (22:30)", "body": "This whole exchange just struck me as a stream-of-consciousness thing, you know? You talking about surfing on the ocean, Riette changes it to in the ocean, Wolf throws in a couple sharks for yuks...it's nothing offensive and no reflection on your interpretations. Lighten up, you're over-analyzing! :-) Am I right ladies, were they innocent comments?"}, {"response": 65, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Oct 23, 1998 (00:02)", "body": "That's what I like to hear---how the whole exchange struck you. But's interesting how an interpretation happens. It's real fast, for one thing. It's like the opposite of over-analyzing. But another weird thing is that if I inquire about that kind of interpretation that I had, it's not easy to do because it looks so offensive to ask if I offended and to ask if I was insensitive because of how the comments looked to me. But it helps me alot to get reactions (like yours, Autumn). Sometimes I get locked onto a certain read. Sometimes we all do. It's freeing to get good feedback, it unlocks the read. Even if the feedback were to be that the comments are not innocent. That still unlocks, because it corroborates and frees me from just myself, from just my own judgments, assumptions or interpretations."}, {"response": 66, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct 23, 1998 (01:04)", "body": "No offence meant here. I found it a pretty hysterical visual, and that sort of thing sets off the teasing trigger."}, {"response": 67, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Oct 23, 1998 (09:28)", "body": "I'm understanding better. That does help me. Thanks."}, {"response": 68, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Oct 25, 1998 (00:40)", "body": "that was all very cool :-)"}, {"response": 69, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Oct 25, 1998 (01:15)", "body": "Yes, it was."}, {"response": 70, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Oct 25, 1998 (10:39)", "body": "i had a weird dream last night. ok, well, i'm not sure how it started. but, somehow i ended up at a hotel (probably from all my travelling with work). the hotel faced a bay that connected to the ocean. there was a fence on one side of the hotel and the bay sort of filled the fence up to its height without going through the mesh (it was a chain-link fence). i was watching the water spill over the top of the fence with every wave. there was a field to the left of the fence and some of the water filled trenches in the field. i was thinking there must be alligators and snakes out there. i had been sitting on a concrete slab just outside one of the doors to the hotel. the next thing i know is my mother and i are going boatriding with a stranger. we had to rent the little boats and had to pull them through the water with a van (which floated, btw). well, i was terrified of falling in the water and had totally lost my ability to swim. my mom drove the van and pulled the boat from the covered marina and out onto the bay. i refused to go in the boat and stayed in the van (which was tangerine in color--we actually had a van like that when i was a kid). well, the only way for the boat to get back to the marina was for us to haul it there via a boat trailer that was still hooked up to the van. all i had to do was sit in the van while my mom and this stranger hooked the boat back up. i fell out of the van a few times and could barely make it to the walkway. it was like a concrete boardwalk and the water came up to about of foot from the top of this walkway. there were lots of people there and it was a festive atmosphere. i got help out of the water and kept thinking that the sharks would get me at any minute. it was strange because my mother, who really doesn't know how to swim and would only go into ocean water up to her knees, wasn't afraid at all. it was like she was born on the water. we were walking back after dropping the boat off at the marina and she was telling me how she could get the dolphins to come up for a closer look. she started blowing up balloons and tossing them into the water. and when i looked out, the water was full of balloons that other people had thrown in there. upon tossing the balloon out, a dolphin did appear and started playing with the balloon. i was so excited and this pleased her. then i started looking around the place and dolphins could be seen all over the place either chasing skiers or playing with balloons. i remember thinking that the dolphins were there even when i had fallen in and it was silly of me to be afraid. it was a wonderful dream, my mother and i friends and doing things together."}, {"response": 71, "author": "sonja", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (05:42)", "body": "Wow! That sounds amazing."}, {"response": 72, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 15, 1998 (15:01)", "body": "I don't dream. Or, I don't remember dreams. I sleep very soundly. I have slept through an earthquake 4.5, I think. I sleep 4 hours a night, and dislike wasting even that much time on sleep. Maybe when I get old I'll decide to sleep more. Maybe I'll even buy a car, instead of walking or riding a bike. But I'm only 43 and old is a long way off yet."}, {"response": 73, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 16, 1998 (03:57)", "body": "What bliss that must be. And yes, you're practically a baby! I had a dream of a weekend though. Saturday morning I woke up with the urge for an outing, but Chris wanted to stay out of the bad weather. So I took my girls, thinking we'd just go to the zoo, but then somehow we ended up on a train and then in Germany. We saw several small towns, slept in a small, dingy hotel in a town called Singen, no clean underwear, no toiletries, and an angry husband back home! And on the way back went to see the Rhine falls. We climbed all the way to the top, marvelling at th rushing, thundering waters, threw coins into the water, and made wishes. Then we came back on several slow, scenic trains, hanging out the windows, shouting and singing. It was great!"}, {"response": 74, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 16, 1998 (08:19)", "body": "That's great. I've always thought that the best kind of day was one where everything is spontaneous. and you find enough fun things to do that the day ends before you are ready."}, {"response": 75, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 16, 1998 (11:05)", "body": "That's what I love too. But I have to admit it drives my husband crazy. He likes things to be orderly, and he likes to know what's going to happen. Then when I go off to the zoo, and end up in Germany, he gets fuming mad. So the getting home part was a bit difficult, but I bought him all his favourite types of chocolate today, so hopefully he'll mellow again."}, {"response": 76, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 16, 1998 (14:37)", "body": "Yes, Chocolate has a way of doing that to a person."}, {"response": 77, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 16, 1998 (19:46)", "body": "However, should he really be angry, beyond the chocolate cure, go out and buy him a half dozen red roses. Men typically don't have a response for when a woman buys roses, and it forces them to think. Thinking and anger can't co-exist, because, in a relationship, anger has no place."}, {"response": 78, "author": "wolf", "date": "Mon, Nov 16, 1998 (20:35)", "body": "that's interesting.....i used to buy myself one single red rose when my husband and i were dating...then he started getting them for me. now, nothing, but hey! oh oh, i've got an idea, do you think if i bought myself a dozen roses once a month, he'd pick up on it and start? can't say anything, though, he's a good man. we walked into a fave jewelry store and he suggested i get my rings cleaned. well, he goes off to another store and you know what i do, right? \"ooo, can i try this one on, then this one, then.....\" etc. etc. then he comes back and i show him some of the rings i liked and also told him i thought it would be neat if we bought anniversary bands (10 years). well, next thing i know is he's telling me to pick one out at a certain dollar limit. so i do. and i felt guilty. and i offered to take it back for a refund. well, i haven't actually worn the thing yet. it's being sized. but i really felt bad. because i felt like a little kid who begged and begged until daddy finally gave in. what the hell, diamonds are a girl's best friend. yeah, right! i pick it up wed. and we'll see how it goes. sorry, went off on a tangent, it wasn't a dream, sorry *smile*"}, {"response": 79, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (01:21)", "body": "ha-ha! That's the way to go about it, Wolf!!! I don't believe in buying flowers, Tim. Yeah, I know I'm an easy girl! No, no, I just feel sad when they whither, that's why. But the chocolates worked, alright! And the love making, and today he's soft as a little lamb again. He's such a sweet man."}, {"response": 80, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (05:00)", "body": "Glad to hear it. About the flowers though: A friend of mine, who I give flowers to dries them somehow and presses them and they stay pretty much intact. I've been giving her roses for 17 years and she still has every one. Even the ones 17 years old still have color. But still, as long as everything worked out it's good."}, {"response": 81, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (15:27)", "body": "My dreams usually consist of \"dumping\" the stuff in my head, like I'll dream about doing the laundry or grocery shopping, or attending a meeting that's scheduled for the next day. Sometimes I'll wake up in the a.m. and swear I'm all caught up on the laundry--I'm genuinely surprised to see it all piled up downstairs!"}, {"response": 82, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (18:28)", "body": "I had an uhhhgo dream that I had a zit on my knee and it popped open and I was messing with it and it grew to this six inch gash in my leg and then it started aching, really bad and I found these things in it (maggots) and I kept trying to get them out but they were way in there (not deep just under the skin away from the gash... Ummm sorry. Told you it was gross."}, {"response": 83, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (19:14)", "body": "Another gross thought, if you have maggots under the skin, you have gangrene."}, {"response": 84, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (20:33)", "body": "hi autumn and stacey! autumn, i have dreams like that too...it's like a major brain dump of all the worries for whatever is happening next! and speaking of dreams, i've had a dream with the same person in it for two nights straight. it was really strange. the same person in different scenes. as for gross dreams, stacey, i've dreamt that my teeth fell out (before my wisdom toofers were removed) and like autumn, i fully expected them to be gone when i woke up! aren't we silly!!!!"}, {"response": 85, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (22:10)", "body": "Not really, a dream can mirror reality. Who's to say what is real and what is illusion, when your brain is asleep, and you are not thinking straight."}, {"response": 86, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "YES! I knew it! The pile of washing in my bathroom IS merely an illusion!"}, {"response": 87, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (04:45)", "body": "It may be an illusion or it may be an alternate reality. It depends on how you perceive it."}, {"response": 88, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (17:49)", "body": "oh no... my knee is starting to ache again..."}, {"response": 89, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (19:55)", "body": "maybe Wolf will lick it clean so it'll heal correctly... if not, I've got a terrific sauce if you can collect enough of the little guys to saute..."}, {"response": 90, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (20:27)", "body": "If you saute the little guys, does that mean you intend to eat them, or is this just a new way of buttering them up?"}, {"response": 91, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (22:21)", "body": "lotsa times the latter leads to the former..."}, {"response": 92, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (22:48)", "body": "oh no....there's a fly in my room that's starting to dream it's Jeff Goldblum [Jeff broke down one night and talked in his sleep in the bed next to mine, saying he came from a maggot in Stacey's knee, but I dunno whether that's really true or not]"}, {"response": 93, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (01:45)", "body": "The poor fly! You slept with JEFF?? You lucky thang, you!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (16:46)", "body": "yeah, he was mostly snoring. Jeff snores alot. I had to wear earplugs. but he also sure can talk on and on in his sleep. he'd be talking alot to a \"wee head\" or something. and whenever I heard him do that, he'd switch into what musta been Afrikaans. but he'd switch back to English when talking about his childhood---that's when he'd say stuff about inside Stacey's knee. it was just 2 nights we slept together. he stopped calling me about 2 weeks later. I'd get this call from him and, by then, all I'd hear was a buzz. so I didn't know what to say, and he musta gotten bored with my \"huh?\"s."}, {"response": 95, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (21:17)", "body": "OK, did he mention me at all?? I think Jeff Goldblum is totally HOT."}, {"response": 96, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (01:16)", "body": "I do recall this one clump of words he uttered suddenly and inadvertantly as if he wanted to cavort with what he couldn't quite have, not even in that dream he was in: \"I wish my mind didn't feel so underfed this dream is hanging by a thread oh if only I could get inside Autumn's head just to see what all she's left unsaid that pointless happiness, was it worth it? none of them had her cackle, her snap or her wit being with anyone but her felt like a hermit I just want to drive her with a learner's permit\""}, {"response": 97, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (01:18)", "body": "Same here, Autumn. I sure wouldn't come up with 'huh' if I had the chance to sleep with him. I'd probably come up with 'ugh'! MORE!"}, {"response": 98, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (21:22)", "body": "Hey, \"snap, cackle and wit\"--that's my motto! You've hit this nail on the head, Jim."}, {"response": 99, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:33)", "body": "Yes, AND managed to slip it in before I could slip mine in. He's just so slick!"}, {"response": 100, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (19:24)", "body": "*laugh* Jeff, crawling around inside me... what a thought! philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 34, "subject": "How do you forgive?", "response_count": 232, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Apr 19, 1999 (08:29)", "body": "wow. too early in the a.m. for that one. I'll grab my coffee and come back to it."}, {"response": 2, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Mon, Apr 19, 1999 (09:26)", "body": "My, Wer, you must have had a mighty rough weekend!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Apr 19, 1999 (09:41)", "body": "ahhh. coffee had. I don't think anyone else can tell you 'how' to forgive and, what's more, if a path doesn't seem apparent, maybe you're not ready to forgive (mind you, I use 'you' as the universal you) Forgiveness, for me, is always spurred on by an overwhelming desire to get on with life without the anger, angst, frustration, sadness I had been carrying around. Usually, if I feel I've been wronged, forgiveness comes about when I stop wallowing in my negative emotions and begin to see another persons point of view come to light. Often though I think I accept an apology without realizing the ramifications of what I've just done. Accepting an apology is like giving forgiveness but if you only 'do it' verbally then it doesn't really count. blah, blah, blah.. perhaps I need more coffee. I think forgiveness is something you can only offer to those you feel extremely close to. Otherwise, you can just 'forget' which is much easier."}, {"response": 4, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Apr 19, 1999 (15:30)", "body": "definitely for me it's about finally seeing the other person's point of view, which probably only comes about when all of the negative feelings have gone away. and also the hurt, i guess, which brings about the negative feelings. once the hurt has gone away then one can make a start on the forgiveness."}, {"response": 5, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Apr 20, 1999 (19:43)", "body": "see, for me forgetting is the hard part..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Apr 20, 1999 (20:09)", "body": "if forgetting is based on not understanding the hurt, i wouldn't want to forget and if hurt is really about not getting what i want, then i want to find out why my wants are so dictatorial or demanding if someone kills my daughter, i can see the reasons for why it happened without having a demanding quality in my emotions about how it shouldn't have happened it happens and there are reasons for it (accumulated unresolved hostility, for example) the problem, though, is that i can't do the above and i think it's due to how i don't understand emotion i think it can be understood and when it isn't, it creates destructive outcomes in people (e.g. hurt or the need to remember marks against me)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Apr 21, 1999 (11:34)", "body": "Forgetting involves not understanding the hurt but it is not based on it (i don't believe). Forgetting is based on not wanting to feel or deal with the hurt any longer. To pretend it never happened so to speak... Understanding is certainly preferable, forgiving is ideal. Forgetting is sometimes a cheat-y way out though."}, {"response": 8, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Apr 21, 1999 (19:39)", "body": "why do we not want to feel or deal with the hurt any longer? i ask because if we could deal with it effectively, we wouldn't need to forget or forgive. if we didn't have to pretend something never happened by suppressing it by \"forgetting\" it then it wouldn't have the chance it gets to build up in strength where we've pushed it out of sight we feel we need to take the way of most convenience, some point to get relief but it leads to repercussions down the line just like getting too caught up in not \"forgetting\" it does if we don't take responsibility for learning about what we don't want to learn about (after a certain point of pain), then we are welcoming more Littleton shootings. what if Littleton is in everyone's backyard. what if we are all rather violent but not accepting it. we're all getting pretty upset and thinking violent thoughts and expressing them in our tone of voice and fighting attitudes when we're in those situations of intense anger and lesser angers. but who really wants to begin to understand these emotions, or emotion per se? who cares that much or wants to be that responsible? i know i can't seem to get past the point of pain either, and i give up and try to get distracted and off and away from it. forgiving, though, goes against my craw. even though anger is lessened and all that (on the surface). and i continue to stay real irresponsible and stunted like that."}, {"response": 9, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (11:51)", "body": "I agree with you Jim... no good reason to forget But emotional strength is needed to increase emotional strength... Sometimes you just don't have the stamina to deal with an event so draining and hurtful and frustrating..."}, {"response": 10, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (16:38)", "body": "so the question is what is emotional strength? or emotional clarity? there may be nothing to forgive. forgiveness may be a security mechanism, nothing more. no one would be able to find out unless they were clear enough to penetrate into the fact of what they're feeling to work all the way through the feeling(s) without caving in, part way, because of how draining it is. so the question gets sharper: what is the draining? right? isn't that the place to start? don't we want to get better at this? the world isn't going to change significantly unless we do. burning emotions that lead to conflict will do us in every time because we're too drained to understand them, and the world will proceed on its course accordingly. these are important tough questions, problems, that are urgently in need of finding out about. and it's complicated by the very real obstacle of how the need to find an answer prevents the finding out, and creates a big part of the draining phenomenon. this all needs to be looked into very closely. who would ever do it though? no one really......."}, {"response": 11, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (16:43)", "body": "I think, in some instances, one needs to forgive one's self, and forget the pain caused by others..."}, {"response": 12, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (17:18)", "body": "Jim said: don't we want to get better at this? Stace says: Yes Jim: the world isn't going to change significantly unless we do. Stace: i agree Jim: burning emotions that lead to conflict will do us in every time because we're too drained to understand them, and the world will proceed on its course accordingly. Stace: Not so... sometimes you have energy for conflict. Sometimes you have energy to ask the hard questions. Sometimes you have the drive and will and desire to proceed immediately. But sometimes you need to stop, think, cry, feel and gather strength without giving it away at the same time. And for awhile you (I) have to try and forget"}, {"response": 13, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (19:06)", "body": "does forgiveness involve not understanding the whole emotion involved, whether it's forgiving ourselves or someone else? when we decide to forget the pain, isn't there something going on there in us that decides to give up on understanding the emotion of pain? when we have the energy to go into the center of the conflict, are we understanding the whole emotion in the conflict? isn't that different from reaching an agreement with yourself or/and someone else? do you think it's possible to understand the emotion of conflict so entirely that from that point on, a person is then able to understand conflict in any form it takes? could it be that energy and understanding work so together that you can't have one without the other, otherwise it's not real understanding or it's not clear and innocent energy? doesn't clear innocent energy have the depth to get to the center of a small conflict and reach such an understanding of it that the energy is there to deal completely with large intense conflict without the need to stop or falter?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Apr 23, 1999 (11:40)", "body": "Jim: does forgiveness involve not understanding the whole emotion involved, whether it's forgiving ourselves or someone else? Stace: I think is does involve understanding the whole emotion involved (that's why it takes so much energy) Jim: when we decide to forget the pain, isn't there something going on there in us that decides to give up on understanding the emotion of pain? Stace: I think that to forgive you must look at the emotion of pain and try and understand where it's coming from... again... by not forgetting, you expend a lot more energy to get to the point where you can forgive. Jim: when we have the energy to go into the center of the conflict, are we understanding the whole emotion in the conflict? Stace: I cannot answer that. I often think I can get to a point of understanding but perhaps I've just put meaning into something that didn't have it to begin with... Jim: isn't that different from reaching an agreement with yourself or/and someone else? Stace: Agreement. In the form of understanding? Or in the form of compromise? Jim: do you think it's possible to understand the emotion of conflict so entirely that from that point on, a person is then able to understand conflict in any form it takes? Stace: I haven't ever been able to understand conflict in any form it takes... on a superficial level, yes. Maybe. That it stems often from emotion, strong emotion. But not a deep seated understanding that would put me at peace with the entire aspect of conflict and the purposes it serves. Jim: could it be that energy and understanding work so together that you can't have one without the other, otherwise it's not real understanding or it's not clear and innocent energy? Stace: Could be. I've never looked at energy as innocent though... Hmmmm.... Jim: doesn't clear innocent energy have the depth to get to the center of a small conflict and reach such an understanding of it that the energy is there to deal completely with large intense conflict without the need to stop or falter? Stace: Clear innocent energy has depth??? Perhaps I've never experienced that type of energy. Or maybe I have and just attributed it to a good breakfast and a sunny day... Over time, after tears, after writing and rewriting, doodling... I begin to understand things more clearly. I've always assumed that during those times I've been gathering energy, not dealing with an issue until I'm ready. But perhaps I am dealing with it all the while, slowly, methodically, with a bit of innocence?? Maybe it seems (even to me) like I avoid dealing with situations that I am actually coming to an understanding the entire time... Maybe I am just a chicken... (free range ya know)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Apr 23, 1999 (12:01)", "body": "(I know)"}, {"response": 16, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Apr 24, 1999 (00:11)", "body": "Stace: I haven't ever been able to understand conflict in any form it takes... on a superficial level, yes. Maybe. That it stems often from emotion, strong emotion. But not a deep seated understanding...... _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ I think this is the case with almost everyone and with all emotions, including forgiveness. I think the meaning we give to forgiveness is merely expedient, not real, because it \"helps\" us \"get through\" hard times. Same with all the other emotions and situations in life, whether it's hard times or not . We want to get through life the best we can. So I'm asking if anyone wants to live in the real. Does anyone want to actually find out what emotion is, and what conflict is, what forgiveness is (if anything)? If we notice, with emotion there is the sensation of feeling, which is harmless enough in itself, but then what happens? The things that occur to us after that point play into the feeling and attach themselves to it. That's where it gets complicated, and we lose touch with the feeling. It's turned into something else, which has very little to do with feeling, and much to do with clever sophisticated security mechanisms and sentiment. It's the self, our concern about our own self, that pulls in the att chments, the complications, which become vested interests and bring that kind of energy with it to the emotion. The emotion now is a far cry from the original feeling. To see how the self with its self concerns takes a want or desire and attaches meaning to it, is to see how feeling gets lost in needs --- like the need for vanity or ambition or intellectualizing or sorrow or nationalism or importance or idea or amusement. Conflict happens when one person wants something and another person wants something different --- that's after the self steps in, takes the original feeling and dresses it up with the outer coverings of needs it becomes or had already become attached to. Understanding conflict happens when we get to know the needy wants and attachments, eliminate them without condemnation, and find out again what the original innocent feeling is, if it's there anymore. It won't be, because feeling changes. It's alive. Needs change too. That's why it's so difficult to understand them and conflict. What's more remarkable than any of our escapes from what's real is seeing a clear innocent feeling as the self draws in on it and contaminates it with images and words, as it forms into conflict with what is real. We don't live with facts (an actual feeling), we live entirely in our minds, in our heads. So we're preoccupied with our mental emotional activity and need stimulants to keep it moving enough not to get too bored with ourselves. We're afraid of what we'll see if don't put any effort into life. Fear is a constant. What is true is a constant noshow-er. Energy is effortless when there's no self-concern directing it. We start to notice our conditioning when we start to notice how self-concern takes over and corrupts feeling. Can you perceive what's taking place in that instant the takeover starts? That would be learning how to live without conflict. It's extraordinarily difficult to see that instant and to see how the self's wants and needs turn life into a desolation of power and control......negativity at its finest (because we are so used to respecting this action, as a society we teach our young to live like this and grow old with no truth, no passion except the force-fed kind we push ourselves with, with effort and lost original innocent feeling). Don't agree or disagree with me. Find out for yourselves. Listen in to the moment. Discover. I wish I could. I can't. I'm not very sensitive. Not very fearless. I somehow don't listen closely enough."}, {"response": 17, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Apr 26, 1999 (10:04)", "body": "i think i must have too much self-concern..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Jul 12, 1999 (09:00)", "body": "I appear to be using a different model than others here. Here is my model for overcoming abuse. 1. Survive it. 2. Surpass it. 3. Understand it. 4. Forgive it. 5. Heal it. I find that Step 4 is nearly impossible without Step 3, and that Step 3 is very hard. It requires constructing a model of the abuser and the abuse. What I have found is that the abuser is operating from a position of power, but without awareness. It is hard to believe that someone is not aware of what others see as obvious, but the evidence suggests that. I am continually astounded to discover that others don't see what I do, and others are continually dumbfounded that I don't see what they do. Our mutual blindness leads to mutual pain. This was also the theory that Socrates put forward in his Apology. It's the only theory I've found that reliab y explains abuse, misery, and suffering."}, {"response": 19, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Jul 13, 1999 (02:13)", "body": "\"I am continually astounded to discover that others don't see what I do, and others are continually dumbfounded that I don't see what they do.\" Now that pretty much sums me up when I'm awake."}, {"response": 20, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Jul 13, 1999 (09:24)", "body": "You are looking at it the wrong way. One cannot see one's own self from looking through the back of the eye. I have a much different perspective. Intellect, character and wit shine from within through the front of the eye. I have seen this in you. Go have another cup of coffee..."}, {"response": 21, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jul 13, 1999 (14:36)", "body": "so... look through the front of the eyes into a mirror?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Jul 13, 1999 (15:18)", "body": "I do not always like what I see in the mirror because I am looking at me. When I look at my son, I am told that I glow with love and joy. Only others can see these things - I never have, but I am happy that they say it is true."}, {"response": 23, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Jul 13, 1999 (15:29)", "body": "Barry, abuse is all about Power and Control. Removing yourself from one's power over you, when you understand that this is what is happening, also causes one to lose control over you. The rest is easy. It is like someone who is sufficating finally getting the airways cleared again. New life and esteem and all that goes with it is suddenly happening inside you. I will not pretend it is easy to accomplish, but when you do, you will never let it happen again. And, therein lies the forgiveness. You were a partner in that little drama, and realizing the other's weaknesses caused the problem makes you feel something more like pity than anything else for the one who has subjected you to the abuse."}, {"response": 24, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Jul 14, 1999 (10:28)", "body": "The other side of the coin from Power and Control is Freedom and Creativity. When I am faced with the challenge of Power and Control, I turn to Creativity, which tends to drive the control freaks nuts. For every attempt to impose control, I respond with the invention of yet another new degree of freedom. There are an infinite number of new degrees of freedom waiting to be discovered or invented. I'm mostly harmless, and at times downright enjoyable. But not every control freak would agree. :)"}, {"response": 25, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Jul 14, 1999 (13:15)", "body": "Control Freaks are my least favorite individuals, and creativity makes them uneasy and downright jealous. That in itself is enough to give a boost to the juices fuelling your mind creatively! That's a winner for sure, Barry!"}, {"response": 26, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Jul 14, 1999 (14:33)", "body": "The irony is that I'm practically infinitely negotiable. A control freak can actually get all he wants and more if he will simply negotiate for a mutually agreeable outcome. But if he tries to impose his will, unilaterally.. well then the fun begins."}, {"response": 27, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Jul 14, 1999 (15:51)", "body": "You have discovered my finest survival strategy. May I applaud your wisdom and the sense of humor which necessarily goes this this. I can just imagine \"when the fun begins\"...I pity the mind which finds you as an adversary."}, {"response": 28, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, Aug 13, 1999 (23:19)", "body": "Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself."}, {"response": 29, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, Aug 13, 1999 (23:23)", "body": "*quietly pondering*"}, {"response": 30, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Aug 13, 1999 (23:37)", "body": "Yes, it is...but at a price. Sometimes it is unearned and therefore unworthy."}, {"response": 31, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Fri, Aug 13, 1999 (23:42)", "body": "Marcia, could you talk more about what you mean by \"unearned\" and \"unworthy\" in terms of forgiveness, please? See, I think forgiveness doesn't need to be earned. If I don't forgive someone, that heaviness hurts me much more than it hurts them. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves as much as those who've hurt us."}, {"response": 32, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Aug 14, 1999 (00:18)", "body": "But, can we forgive ourselves so easily when the injured party cannot yet forgive us?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Aug 14, 1999 (00:23)", "body": "There are walking wounded out there needing healing because their arrogant injurers are forgiving themselves too readily. Trust me on this one."}, {"response": 34, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sat, Aug 14, 1999 (08:20)", "body": "In my model, forgiveness follows understanding. I find it easy to forgive if I understand, and impossible if I don't. Understanding means I discover the deeply hidden truth, which differed from the inaccurate presumptions upon which I had been laboring."}, {"response": 35, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Aug 14, 1999 (10:43)", "body": "What steps do you employ toward this enlightenment? Understanding why the person injured you? Or, understanding why you are feeling injured? Your model is definitely worth a great deal if it can accomplish this enlightenment, and muat bring you great peace of mind."}, {"response": 36, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Aug 14, 1999 (11:14)", "body": "Sorry, Barry, I just scrolled back through these messages and found the steps for your model. Your second step, Surpass it...is that the same as \"get on with your life?\" Too bad we are emotional beings. There are times I could wish not to be so, but if we were not, we probably would have gone extict long ago."}, {"response": 37, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sun, Aug 15, 1999 (15:59)", "body": "Surpass means to rise above, to become more enlightened, more evolved, more Buddhalike, more immune from the mindset that gave rise to the damaging behavior. Socrates said, \"To know the good is to do the good.\" Jesus said, \"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.\" These are similar sentiments in different words. As I model it, when someone is behaving aggressively, it's an act of defense that includes an offensive component because the person does not know any inoffensive defense. Civility is the art of employing the inoffensive defense. Civility is a learned behavior, but it's not taught much in our culture. It's a lost art. Incivility is an offensive defense. Incivility propagates mimetically, since it's impossible to xerox non-existent wisdom. One can only xerox that which exists. What exists is incivility. And incivility is damaging. That's what our culture is xeroxing right and left. The defense department is invoked by the Amygdala, a little known department of the brain that we might call the department of horror assessment. It's not a thinking part of the brain. It's the kneejerk department. It kicks in as a backup system when the wisdom department draws a blank. Which is most of the time. That was the point Socrates and Jesus were trying to make. And one does not teach wisdom by engaging in mimetic violence, mimetic revenge. That's why they elected to die. To teach some wisdom. And they actually did manage to reach a few souls. A few people got it. Most did not. When you have an accurate model of how the brain works, a lot of our cultural practices are revealed to be idiotic, leading to net damage to the system."}, {"response": 38, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sun, Aug 15, 1999 (23:23)", "body": "Thanks for clarifying, Marcia. I see I was looking at the problem from the opposite angle you were. My response was to the question of \"why forgive?\" with regard to me forgiving someone who had hurt me, in which case forgiving lightens my own load. Your question, \"But, can we forgive ourselves so easily when the injured party cannot yet forgive us?\" comes from an entirely different point of view. My first response to it is that we can only control our own responses, not someone else's, and if those who harm others are running around cluelessly (having forgiven themselves for the harm they did) while their victims are still bleeding, WE can't do much about that. One of the few things in life that's within our control is our attitudes. We can choose an attitude of forgiveness toward others, whether we understand their motivations or not, and that attitude can profoundly affect all the other aspects of our life. (See Viktor Frankl's account of survival in a Nazi death camp for more on this -- or watch \"Life is Beautiful.\")"}, {"response": 39, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Aug 15, 1999 (23:42)", "body": "I grew up with survivors of Nazi death camps, and I saw the pain and agonizingly slow return to what we might call \"normal.\" They had to get past the injuries to heal. Those who did not ultimately died - either socially or in actuality. It was very difficult to deal with from the outside, and most terrible to witness, helplessly. It is a grace to forgive, and in forgiving, never to mention it again. We all understood that, and the subject never again came up unless they brought it up. You must have nown what I meant when you suggested Viktor Frankl's remarkable work. Whether one finds the higher power within themselves or the power others would call God, it is necessary to tap into that to obtain the grace to forgive."}, {"response": 40, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Mon, Aug 16, 1999 (00:32)", "body": "This is a topic that has been a hot button inside me for the past decade or so. I agree with Autumn that forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves, especially when we forgive others, who may be unknowing or uncaring about they hurt that they have inflicted upon us. I've read in more than one place that more than two percent of the population is sociopathic--no conscience whatsover. Forgiving those we love for leaving us is the hardest, but we have become a society of disposable people, to discard or be di carded at the slightest sign of trouble in Paradise. It's been a long time since I've been in a relationship, but my last significant other left me for a friend of mine, so in effect, I lost two people at once. Neither wishes to have contact with me anymore, probably out of avoidance of guilt. They can't deny that I was wronged, but neither has faced me and apologized. I have forgiven them both although both say they've done nothing to be forgiven for. I recognize the fact that someone who doesn't lo e me or who I have abused (which I most assuredly did not do) has the right to leave, but in this instance, the romance between the other two happened several months before I found out and she decided she preferred him to me. Both are fairly public figures where I live and are in the same circles, so some contact is unavoidable. But I forgave them to keep the bitterness inside me over the betrayal from eating me up. Forgetting, that is another matter. I have moved on with my life, but if someone can t ll me how to forget, that advice would be appreciated."}, {"response": 41, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Mon, Aug 16, 1999 (01:09)", "body": "John, you have just hit upon the crux of the whole matter. Survival depends on our putting things behind us when we can no longer do anything about them. Forgetting has made the stuff of Greek tragedies and Shakespeare so long-lived. We can all relate to the pain involved on our own individual levels. That you are reminded so frequently must be painful in the extreme. Mine moved away, so I am not reminded so frequently, but it is no less miserable to remember. We cope as we can in our own individual ways...may we all find solace and peace of mind, after forgiving ourselves, with most welcome forgetfulness."}, {"response": 42, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Aug 16, 1999 (06:06)", "body": "The Dalai Lama spoke in Central Park yesterday to a crowd of 40,000 people. He said the cause of violence is the absence of empathy and compassion. To repair the culture, we need to seed empathy and compassion, because the culture can only xerox what is there to be copied. It takes a Buddha nature to express empathy and compassion. But we did it as parents to our young children. The American public are like young children without loving parents. Empathy and compassion are rare in this culture. We may have to invent them out of whole cloth, relying on ancient texts which prescribed the construction of mindfulness and empathy."}, {"response": 43, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Mon, Aug 16, 1999 (10:50)", "body": "To forgive someone takes a great deal of grace, which is a gift born of the compassion and empathy so obviously lacking in our culture. However, the \"re-invention\" of compassion and empathy will be made easier because they exist within each one of us. I don't believe they can be killed in most of us. We have to slow down and listen to our hearts to find them."}, {"response": 44, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Aug 16, 1999 (11:50)", "body": "Members of the Falun Gong meditative movement slow down and listen to their breath as they engage in slow motion excercise and meditate on the concepts of Zhen, Shan, and Ren. Shan means \"compassion.\" Why are Zhen, Shan, and Ren so lacking in our culture? What is extinguishing them?"}, {"response": 45, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (09:04)", "body": "i dont think they are being extinguished, per se, but rather have never exisited. our culture carries the weight of the Enlightenment with it, and all of its attendant rationality. zhen, shan, and ren are lacking in our culture because not rational, IMHO."}, {"response": 46, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (09:56)", "body": "with regard to Barry's \"order of operation\"... sometimes, the more I understand, the more DIFFICULT I find it to forgive..."}, {"response": 47, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (10:03)", "body": "me too."}, {"response": 48, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (10:19)", "body": "(hiya Ray... good to see you around again)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (12:58)", "body": "Amen. Stacey."}, {"response": 50, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (13:32)", "body": "you too stacey!"}, {"response": 51, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (16:20)", "body": "I have a theory that deep understanding makes forgiveness inescapable. I also have a theory that deep understanding is elusive. Rilly rilly elusive."}, {"response": 52, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (16:35)", "body": "Barry, I wonder if the Socratic \"to know the good is to do the good\" lost something in translation from the classic Greek (which I am not enough of a scholar to know). I would postulate that the inverse is true \"to do the good is to know the good.\" Despite the fact that those of us who are not sociopathic have an ingrained sense of right and wrong, we often know what is right and yet choose to do the wrong thing anyhow for some gratification other than spiritual or ethical (monetary, sexual, or psychoactive gr tification as examples). I also take issue with the Bible's edict that \"the truth shall set you free.\" I sometimes am a subscriber to Jack Nicholson's rant (in \"A Few Good Men\"), \"You can't handle the truth!\" Although I detest being lied to (who doesn't), knowing the truth doesn't always make things better either--whether it's a surface knowledge or the \"deep understanding\" you allude to. This said, and I'm not trying to be totally disagreeable, I do find your theories lucid, rational, and worthy of f rther consideration."}, {"response": 53, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Aug 18, 1999 (06:40)", "body": "To do the good is to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that one knows the good. In other word, that's an irrefutable proof. But Socrates was saying something stronger. That people do the best they know how, even if the best they know how is pretty piss poor by absolute standards. Never underestimate the extent to which people are ignorant, oblivious, or unskilled. And never underestimate the extent toward which people are terrified. Terror is probably the single biggest factor in determining what people do."}, {"response": 54, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Aug 18, 1999 (06:43)", "body": "The truth cannot be handled by those in power. Power is a dangerous narcotic. Under the narcotic of power, people do unspeakable evil under the color of law. Unspeakable harm to society and to their fellow man. Most people cannot face that terrifying truth, that their belief in the law is a mistake."}, {"response": 55, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Aug 18, 1999 (13:04)", "body": "*** The truth cannot be handled by those in power. - Barry *** PLEASE, no more absolute overgeneralizations... I always feel compelled to refute them... a disease I'm sure..."}, {"response": 56, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Aug 19, 1999 (07:39)", "body": "I rest my case. :)"}, {"response": 57, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (00:16)", "body": "Back to FORGIVENESS, if nobody minds... How do we forgive? With a lot of compassion, not just for the person who has offended us but especially for ourselves. If I choose to hold on to my anger and rage about an offense, I choose to carry around a heavy old bag of rocks. That burden doesn't bother the person who offended me one bit -- he's free to feel quite justified in what he did, and when called on the carpet about the behavior, by me, he will explain to me in detail why the offense is justifiable. Who suffers by my unforgiveness? ONLY me. Nobody else. I'm there right now again, btw. I need to forgive and I haven't found the compassion within me to do it."}, {"response": 58, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (01:00)", "body": "You are still too close to it, perhaps. Take a deep breath and go outside and look at something infinitely larger than the hurt is...the glory of the night sky. If it is the loss of someone significant in your life, this will make you sadder and the loss more profound. Perhaps you need to see children with no parents if you have lost a child. Whatever your hurt, there is something out there to cleanse your mind and heart of the hurt and heal the wounds. We tend to self-flagellate, at least I do, for hatever has gone wrong. That only inflicts more wounds...but it keeps my mind off the real ones for a while... Good luck for forebearance, my dear. You are among friends here."}, {"response": 59, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (11:28)", "body": "We are coming up on the 50th anniversary of the Nuremburg Trials. There will be some retrospectives. Recall the primary defense: \"I was just following orders.\" Here in Amerika, ve haf lawss. Here in Amerika ve chust obey ze lawss. If ze laww sess to use ze force on ze lawbreaker, ve chust follow ze rule of ze laww. Javert would be proud. Welcome to the United States of Algolagnia. Can we forgive them for chust following ze laww? Chust obeying ze rules?"}, {"response": 60, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (11:52)", "body": "Well, I'm trying to do just that. But it's very difficult."}, {"response": 61, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (13:06)", "body": "Ignorance? Overgeneralising? Hollow buzz phrases? Hey - somebody called my name?"}, {"response": 62, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (13:18)", "body": "Oh. Switched the topic since... It strikes me that two things are neglected in y'alls ideas - the necessity of understanding events as meta-events (historically, so to speak, and detached from one's hurt - incl. grasping needs and urges of all parties at all times, as this is where motivations come from), if you wish to make your peace with what happened (or forgive, or give in, or whatever), and on the other hand the question if it is desireable to forgive, or what that means to which party (e.g. is this a moral empowerment of the griefed party who can grant forgiveness or not - moral highground that not seldom is abused in worse ways than the original attack would let one expect; also, is the offender interested in being forgiven? And what does it mean?). I'd like to hear your comments."}, {"response": 63, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (13:45)", "body": "(e.g. is this a moral empowerment of the griefed party who can grant forgiveness or not - moral highground that not seldom is abused in worse ways than the original attack would let one expect; yes Several religions 'require' forgiveness... and forgiveness is christianity appears to be the means to the desired end... eternal life kinda stuff... so... are those people forgiving because they want to, because they have to or because there is the promise of some great reward if they do (i.e. for their own selfish reasons...) Es tut mir leid Alexander, I think I posed another question and none of your answers..."}, {"response": 64, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (14:18)", "body": "Stacey, you hit on something that has bothered me for a very long time. The newly self-righteous who know they are going to heaven because they were big enough to forgive tresspasses against them. I do not think the God they are seeking to be with is that easily fooled. I wonder if it comes back to haunt them on their death-beds."}, {"response": 65, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (18:25)", "body": "also, is the offender interested in being forgiven? And what does it mean? The kind of forgiveness I'm talking about has nothing to do with whether the offender cares or thinks he needs to be forgiven. How did Viktor Frankl forgive Adolph Hitler? Was Hitler interested in being forgiven? That kind of forgiveness is not acceptance of what Hitler did. It does not say, \"Oh, OK, we can be friends again and I trust you'll be kind to me this time.\" That kind of forgiveness, the kind Frankl gave Hitler, simply releases us from the terrible, life-destroying bondage of our own unforgiveness. That kind of forgiveness allows us to go on with our lives, without forgetting the offense but no longer having to carry the terrible burden the offender has laid upon our shoulders."}, {"response": 66, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (07:59)", "body": "It is the difference between being pained by something and being sad about something, no? You'll find this often in the context of working up and reliving (NOT relieving!) traumata. The cause of the trauma isn't gone, but the manic traits and neurotic behaviorisms by the traumatized person vanish. The pain is gone, and all that's left is an *understanding* of things connected (e.g. the pains experienced before, and how it guided one's acts, where these urges came from) and an incredible *sadness*, but a sadness that doesn't dominate one's every step. Just a sadness that you had to witness this and that, and that consequently, you acted such and such, and all the things lost because of this. Stacey, what you pointed at throws more light on the problem people have with this phrase \"forgiving\", and why I believe all you can achieve - both as offender and as offended - is \"never-minding\", and not being in pain anymore. Why, Nan, that all would be based on the first point I made, no? Understanding contexts, etc. In the example you gave, it is obvious that most people would say \"Forgive Hitler! No way! Those inhuman acts can't be forgiven!\", but they themselves have dehumanized HIM. Turned him into a demon that acted in inexplainable, horrific ways, committing crimes one simply can't grasp. How could they \"forgive\" or understand a demon? In your example, it seems the offender has been looked upon as a human being, with faults and defects like all or many of us. But also with very special historical coincidences, which enabled him to put his urges into play like few others ever could (he wasn't the only one in recorded history committing attrocities - or rather: \"ordering them\", as he has not to my best knowledge actively participated, so all was \"clean\" and rational to him -, and there were people who had achieved a higher head count, a d yes, that includes ethnic cleansing, and yes, antisemitism, too). Seeing Hitler this way was very brave, because it is also obvious, many people will attack this man for his opinion, not caring to listen or understand what he means. A pity, no? (And thanks everybody for commenting, not lecturing! 'Preciate it.)"}, {"response": 67, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (09:13)", "body": "Viktor Frankl, Holocaust survivor and author of \"Man's Search for Meaning,\" was one who showed me how we all hold the key to happiness within us, and that the only thing in life we can control is our own attitude. You can read an interview with href=http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9504/scully.html>Frankl if you'd like to know more about him."}, {"response": 68, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (09:14)", "body": "Hmmm. So much for trying an HTML link here. Sorry, can't edit it..."}, {"response": 69, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (11:04)", "body": "did you mean Frankl ?"}, {"response": 70, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (11:05)", "body": "oops, I mussed it up too... http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9504/scully.html"}, {"response": 71, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (11:12)", "body": "Or... to make his name a link.. Frankl here's the code pretend is has around it a href=\" http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9504/scully.html \" and then your text... the frankl part... and then close your command with a \"/a\" in <> and no quotes (crossing my fingers hoping this works so I don't just look silly!)"}, {"response": 72, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (14:46)", "body": "Of course it works, Stacey! You guys are so clever. I just got my computer the first of this month. Before that I only used the computer for word processing and e-mail...had never even seen the world of http://www.com Marcia is being very patient in educating me in computerese, at least publicly. I suspect that privately she's either thinking or saying, \"I didn't know John was such a cretin!\""}, {"response": 73, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (19:14)", "body": "Thanks, Stacey, for linking the Frankl interview. I copied the HTML directly from my bio on Utne, where I have it linked -- it works in Motet and on my university pages, so I don't know what dropped out of it here to make it stop working."}, {"response": 74, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (19:58)", "body": "Geez, John...it is my pleasure to be able to teach you anything. (The man has honors dripping off of him like rain off of a tin roof in Hilo.) Ask, and I am at your service *smile*"}, {"response": 75, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep  1, 1999 (20:15)", "body": "Forgiving Hitler is akin to forgiving the unkown innovator who introduced into our culture the quaint notion that society is best regulated by means of rules and laws enforced by sanctions and punishments. Our culture has been mindlessly xeroxing that idea for millenia, nothwithstanding copious evidence that it's an idiotic idea that causes profound injustice and suffering."}, {"response": 76, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (11:17)", "body": "I find it immoral even to contemplate the idea of whether WE should or should not forgive Hitler. We may well have been on his side, had we been there. The one good thing about Hitler is that learning about him gives us the chance to question our own good, which we take so readily for granted."}, {"response": 77, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (12:56)", "body": "It's immoral to think about something? Oh dear."}, {"response": 78, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  2, 1999 (14:21)", "body": "Not in the literal sense; it is the same sort of 'immoral' that people debate about regarding the making of a movie like 'Shindler's List'. It goes: how can people who never lived through it think themselves in a position to made judgements? Their judgement is based on assumptions, nothing more, and the Shoah is something so terrifying that it is, yes, immoral to just ASSUME anything regarding it. Most of all what our position would have been. My ancestors were all jewish, and I converted back mysel just recently. But can I therefore assume that, had this been 1940, and had I lived in Poland or Germany or Hungary or Holland, I would have been murdered, rather than a murderer? I don't think so. I might well have betrayed my people like many others. Just so, can a catholic or an anglican, or any other member of society assume that they would have risked their lives for jews, and therefore that they have anything to forgive about Hitler? No. They may well have been a part of the hysteria. Is it ot immoral to assume oneself a victim rather than a murderer when one has never been in that position? To me it is."}, {"response": 79, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (08:51)", "body": "Hitler was not the first, nor the last, to act on the belief that those in power are entitled to employ lawful violence against the enemies of the state. Americans visited plenty of lawful violence against Native Americans and Blacks living in North America, against Asians living in their homelands, and against Arabs living in the land of their birth. Violence carried out under the color of law is ubiquitous in our culture. Most of your tax dollars go to fund such authorized, sanctioned, and lawful violence."}, {"response": 80, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (10:39)", "body": "and forgiveness means what?"}, {"response": 81, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (11:03)", "body": "I couldn't agree with you more, Barry. The only thing that makes Hitler different from the rest, is that he managed to catch favourable conditions for convincing ALOT of people of the 'righteousness' of organized crime against humanity. Forgiveness. I am not sure that truly exists at all. What do you think, Stacey? Whenever I talk to people about forgiveness, they always seem to have it all worked out, BUT ... There are always alot of 'BUT's. And I always thought forgiveness had something to do with the unconditional. Can we achieve unconditional?"}, {"response": 82, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (11:53)", "body": "sorry... the question wasn't really legit... I was just making some passive comment on how we had again strayed from topic! I do have an opinion of forgiveness (and I think I posted some of it before) but too heavy for me right now!"}, {"response": 83, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (13:42)", "body": "OH! I guess that means it worked. Sorry, I've not been in this conference for a long time."}, {"response": 84, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep  8, 1999 (16:51)", "body": "aaahhhh! you are forgiven my child... by me... for whatever that's worth... shall this pave my way to some oft spoken, seldom seen promised land??? (and the rest of you... please forgive my antagonism... I need a longer nap!)"}, {"response": 85, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (03:18)", "body": "You mean you wrote that when you were awake?? ha-ha, NO!!! Just kidding, Stace!"}, {"response": 86, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (08:41)", "body": "Forgiveness means understanding how things got to be so evil in the first place. Our culture has been mindlessly xeroxing the evil since the dawn of civilization. Can you forgive a Xerox machine for reproducing whatever it's fed? Humans are natural Xerox machines."}, {"response": 87, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (08:41)", "body": "I forgive you too, Ree."}, {"response": 88, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (08:41)", "body": "Wow, real slippage."}, {"response": 89, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (08:44)", "body": "Real Synchronicity."}, {"response": 90, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (08:55)", "body": "So Barry, how did things get evil?"}, {"response": 91, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (11:13)", "body": "You forgive me, Terry?? NOW can I marry you for you money then? Barry do you recognize evil in yourself?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Sep  9, 1999 (16:02)", "body": "Marry me for money now? You mean I had a chance to earlier on?"}, {"response": 93, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (01:01)", "body": "\ufffdgrowl\ufffd That was the THIRD time I've asked you now already!"}, {"response": 94, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (10:19)", "body": "uh oh... Paul's in BIG trouble!"}, {"response": 95, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (10:28)", "body": "How could I have missed those two proposals? This is a no brainer."}, {"response": 96, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (13:20)", "body": "I guess I forgot to say please! Do I really HAVE to?"}, {"response": 97, "author": "moulton", "date": "Fri, Sep 10, 1999 (18:37)", "body": "We invented evil about 10,000 years ago. For the most part, we invented government to assume responsibility for doing evil on our collective behalf. Then we invented corporations to do evil on behalf of the wealthy. I'm too blind to be able to see my own evil. But I am able to see evil in the system."}, {"response": 98, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 11, 1999 (00:36)", "body": "If the 'innocent' individual did not posess evil, he would not be able to invent 'evil governments'."}, {"response": 99, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sat, Sep 11, 1999 (13:45)", "body": "Reading through the last couple of days here, I'm struck by this question: Why does Barry's going \"off topic\" into the subject of evil (which to me is attached to Forgiveness, since we'd been talking about forgiving Hitler's evilness) deserve some kind of hand slap, and silliness about marriage proposals gets no mention of being off topic at all? Like I said, just a question. Maybe I'm off base here, but in my world a conversation should be big enough to accommodate both diversions. And Barry, you say forgiveness means \"understanding how things got to be so evil in the first place.\" If that's the requirement, given that you may never understand some things, how can you ever forgive? And if you don't forgive them, how can you be strong enough to lug those burdens of unforgiveness around for a lifetime?"}, {"response": 100, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (03:44)", "body": "Back slap? My hand isn't hurting. And what Stacey wrote didn't sound like a slap to me either; she was merely teasing. What I wrote just before you was just a remark to point out that governments wouldn't exist if individuals didn't create them. And since Barry considers governments to be evil - the evil must come from SOMEWHERE. That was what I was trying to say. That's not on topic either, by the way. Tell me, do you treat your friends like machines, or do you sometimes allow yourself to be ligh-hearted and silly too?"}, {"response": 101, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (14:45)", "body": "Hey! Some of my best friends are machines! Then again, some of my not-so-best human friends behave a lot like xerox machines."}, {"response": 102, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (19:41)", "body": ", the history of this conference has been that it is often difficult to keep topics on topic. i saw no hand-slapping occuring above, and the frivolity was pretty much par for the course here. thats not to say we can't have very serious conversations here, because we can. barry and everyone else is most welcome to expound upon, describe, and defend their beliefs as much as they wish. others are most welcome to participate in these debates or not. i would also encourage anyone to start a new topic of their choosing if need be! if you are not sure how to do that, email me at ratthing@ratthing.com and i'll gladly do it for you."}, {"response": 103, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (22:19)", "body": "Wow...a ratthing domain. I'm seriously impressed."}, {"response": 104, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (22:28)", "body": "With a PhD in this field, you too could have one, dear!"}, {"response": 105, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Sun, Sep 12, 1999 (23:23)", "body": "No disrepect intended to Dr. Lopez, that doesn't impress me as much as one's own virtual domain. I've met PhDs who are brilliant and PhDs who had parents who paid to keep them in school forever because they knew the poor fools couldn't make it in the real world. One thing a PhD must be, though, is persistent, because that much schooling doesn't come easy, no matter who pays. I'm still a few months away from my MEd, and although I've been accepted into a doctoral program, it's going to have to wait unti I'm less monetarily indebted. I'm just overwhelmed trying to pay the bills I already have and can't quit my job."}, {"response": 106, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (00:08)", "body": "John, I am prouder of you at this moment than I have ever been before. You really are going to use that mind of your to its best ability. You don't have to tell me about PhD's of various sorts, as you know. I had one of my very own and he is now in another state. Ratthing is someone for whom I have the greatest respect...there is nothing too insignificant for him to tackle for you or to explain for you (me, actually.) I know that is the sort you will be, also. The rest should be confined to the stac s of libraries where they can lead sterile lives...but enough of that. Keep at it...if you need a cheer leader, I am not very far away...always!"}, {"response": 107, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (01:21)", "body": "BARRY, this time I agree again! I'd rather sleep with xerox machine than with a human who acts like one. John and Ray both have degrees in Philosophy?? If you do, can you answer this: Is philosophy interesting to study? Do you have any idea about the curriculum that is usually followed? TRying to make my mind up about next year, can't decide between 20th century history and 20th century ARt history, so I'm thinking of doing neither, but Philosophy rather. How useful is that in career terms? Not very, I would imagine. Or am I wrong??"}, {"response": 108, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (03:45)", "body": "PhDs can be in any field. I don't know what Ray's is in. In that sense, the philosophy in Doctor of Philosophy means \"love of learning,\" it's original Greek meaning (philo = love, sophia = learning). My bachelor's degree is in English and the masters in education I should have this May is in curriculum instruction. A bachelor's degree in philosophy is a good gateway degree into law school, but is pretty worthless by itself as a career vehicle. Philosophy teaches you how to think both in logical terms and \"outside the box\" (you already know how to paint \"outside the box\" which requires original thought). These skills are extremely valuable to lawyers, though. History degrees are excellent in that you learn to do research before you go to graduate school."}, {"response": 109, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (08:42)", "body": "what john said. ;) my PhD is in experimental psychology."}, {"response": 110, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (10:01)", "body": "Mine is in Systems Theory and Operations Research."}, {"response": 111, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (12:18)", "body": "Acronym STOR? Both yours and Ray's fields sound fascinating! Riette can answer some of your curriculum questions later (after I get home from work). I considered a philosophy major, so I have done some personal research there."}, {"response": 112, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (14:36)", "body": "Thanks for all the advice from all of you. It is very useful indeed. I really think I might end up going for philosophy. I am studying, because if I end up staying here, I'd want a PhD at the end of it; what you said was especially good, John, because I've always thought that, should we ever end up in an english speaking country, I'd want to study law. A good friend of mine (you know, the one guy with whom I went to see Austin Powers!!) is a barrister, and I always ask him loads of questions about t e job - it sounds truly exciting. I think I should mail him as well, because it's getting urgent. Closing date for signing up was on the 7th already, so I'd better get a move on soon. I just think it's going to be no use studying art OR art history if I'm just going to regret not having studied the other all year!! Decisions, decisions! I just really don't want to be a painter for the rest of my life - there's GOT to be a USEFUL career just waiting for me to achieve it somewhere."}, {"response": 113, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (15:12)", "body": "If you want it--go for it!"}, {"response": 114, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (15:19)", "body": "Philosophy has both Eastern (Asian) and Western (European) components. You study the theories of the great thinkers like Aristotle, Kant, Mill, Lao-Tzu, Confucius...both secular and also religious philosophers. Some of the latter in the Western tradition include Kierkegaard, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ignatius Loyola, C.S. Lewis (yes, the same one)...Eastern include Siddhartha Guarama (Buddha), Confucius...there's the categorical imperative (Kant), utilitarianism (Bentham, Mill), natural law (Aquinas), Zen (imagine the sound of one hand clapping). It can hurt your head, but you can think in ways you never imagined. I took a course in Social Ethics from a Harvard PhD named Barry Curtis. It changed my life, I believe, for the better. There's also Philosophy of Law for future barristers (I loved it), Philosophy of Education (necessary in my job)."}, {"response": 115, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (15:47)", "body": "Riette, to answer your question from post 100: No. I don't treat my friends \"like machines\" -- and when I read again what I'd written in post 99, and the questions I asked, it didn't seem that I had done that here, either, where I know no one except Barry. I'm a newcomer here and I doubt I'll be sticking around. Forgive me, please, if I stepped out of bounds."}, {"response": 116, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (21:12)", "body": "Jakob Bronowski said of our species: \"If we are any kind of machine at all, we are learning machines.\" When someone suggested to Philosopher/Logician Raymond Smullyan the possibility that humans were technically a kind of machine, he remarked, \"Wow! I never realized machines could be so marvelous!\""}, {"response": 117, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (23:08)", "body": "Moonbeam...if you don't stick around, make sure it's because you're dissatisfied overall with the quality of conversation and debate here, not because you took offense to something an individual said. Ree and I have already had several (minor) cyberspace shouting matches, but I've found her quick to forgive if I was the one who offended. She can get her hackles up (as can we all from time to time) but if you believe you're right, stick to your guns. As Ray said, there's room for all kinds of differing oints of view and if you feel we're off topic, but onto something that merits further discussioon, contact him and he will set up a new topic. Barry, love the quotes. We are marvelous thinking machines, but terrible data retrieval units! Too bad, in scholastic settings, we are often graded on our ability to retrieve data, not on the originality and merit of our thoughts. Philosophy is one of the few disciplines where that mold can be consistently broken."}, {"response": 118, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (23:23)", "body": "Thanks, John. Riette took offense at what *I* said, not the other way around. She asked me in a tone I \"heard\" as rude if I treated my friends like machines. I was trying to make amends for unintentionally offending her. Now, I'm inordinately fond of several machines in my life -- notably this computer that connects me to other interesting minds, and the water heater in my basement that delivers hot blessings to my FM-tightened body -- but I don't think I could fall in love with a machine, whereas I can and do with friends."}, {"response": 119, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Mon, Sep 13, 1999 (23:37)", "body": "We are a strange, eclectic community of individuals and--speaking for myself here--sometimes perhaps, forgetting social skills during social intercourse. I am also inordinately fond of several machines in my life as well. But I agree with you that we should use things and love people. ;)"}, {"response": 120, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (03:07)", "body": "Moonbeam, I was pi$$ed off, because your response was unfair to MY good friend here - Stacey. Ask anyone here, and they'll tell you she is NOT the kind of person to slap people around; her teasing is always always harmless. If you had taken the time to get to know us better BEFORE criticising, you would have known that. I asked whether you treated your friends like machines, because your response gave me the feeling that you prefer for people never to play out of balance. So, that's my side. I'm not interested in an apology, and neither will I apologize. I'd rather find out about making friends now. Do you want to? Where do you live? What do you do? And oh, I really liked that thing you wrote in 'My Day's Philosophy' - you know, about blocks. What blocks you up?"}, {"response": 121, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (07:59)", "body": "ree, i'd definitely go for as much education as you can. being in school for such a long time was not fun, but the benefits for me have been worth it. if i'd a had my druthers, i'd have gotten a PhD in philosophy. but there are no jobs in that field, so i went for experimental psych. turned out there were no jobs there either, so now i'm a management consultant!!!"}, {"response": 122, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (08:02)", "body": "Stick around moonbeam, don't go away!"}, {"response": 123, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (13:48)", "body": "Thanks, Terry. Forget it, Riette. I'm not much interested in your \"friendship\" if you can't give or accept apologies for unintentional missteps. Stacey, if my comment about a \"hand slap\" offended you, I am sorry."}, {"response": 124, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (14:57)", "body": "*sigh* Here is my post which caused so much turmoil: Topic 34 of 35 [philosophy]: How do you forgive? Response 82 of 123: Stacey Vura (stacey) * Wed, Sep 8, 1999 (11:53) * 3 lines sorry... the question wasn't really legit... I was just making some passive comment on how we had again strayed from topic! I do have an opinion of forgiveness (and I think I posted some of it before) but too heavy for me right now! You got irritated when you thought I was 'hand slap'ing Barry I wasn't. I was doing EXACTLY what I said...\"making some passive comment on how we had again strayed from topic\" We do that. Ree-head got irritated when she thought you were bad mouthing me... (*grin* Brandon will be afraid of you if he and I get in another fight!) And now I'll go ahead and say Chill Out. This community has always had discord and has always still been a source of harmony for me. I do HATE overgeneralizations and I HATE people talking about other people badly. Please don't speak about someone you do not know well in such negative terms. Riette is truly capable of giving apologies and accepting them. I've witnessed it. If you choose not to get to know her better that is truly your business and I have no issue with that. However, please don't throw in a verbal jab to expound on your feelings. They're not necessary and they are rude. Your posts have been a welcome addition to this topic and filled with insight. As John said, if you choose to leave I hope it's for reasons other than discord between posters and misunderstandings over posts."}, {"response": 125, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (15:15)", "body": "Moonbeam, I said I wanted no apology, and wasn't going to apologize, because I thought we had each explained WHY we were pi$$ed off, and that was enough. I don't want you to have to say, 'Gee, Ri\ufffdtte, I'm SOOO sorry', and I don't feel like saying, 'GEE, Moonbeam, I'm SOOO sorry.' What for? I'm not going to apologize for defending STacey, and I don't expect you to apologize for anything either. I just want to stop being tight-ar$ed about things, and get on with it."}, {"response": 126, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (15:18)", "body": "* sighing right back atcha* You said: \"Riette is truly capable of giving apologies and accepting them. I've witnessed it.\" She said to me (don't take my word, go back and look) -- that she was not interested in giving or accepting apologies. Was *that* not rude in your book, Stacey? Or am I just so much older than you that it's only rude in mine, right after I'd offered her an apology? I feel I've taken more than one verbal jab in this topic while attempting to make amends for an unintended elbow of my own. Hey, it's a topic about forgiveness. I asked for it and was told it wasn't forthcoming, and besides that I was out of place for opening my mouth."}, {"response": 127, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (15:36)", "body": "She said she wasn't interested... you said she \"can't give or accept apologies for unintentional missteps.\" I got upset at the semantics... another misunderstanding I'm sure. Her comment didn't seem rude to me because I interpreted it the way she explained above... that the explanation itself would be enough to end a disagreement over a misunderstanding. No groveling necessary on either side. yes, this is a forgiveness topic... I forgive you all! *grin*"}, {"response": 128, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (15:37)", "body": "oh and... what does age have to do with perception of rudeness??"}, {"response": 129, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (15:50)", "body": "Gentle Reader, You may be right. Age may have absolutely nothing to do with one's perception of rudeness. To find out more about that, if you're interested, you might want to ask someone over 50 (like me, for instance, or Miss Manners if you'd rather) whether she thinks the world is a ruder, less civil place than it was in her youth. In my youth, there was no need to have university students sign a \"civility contract\" when they enrolled for classes. At the university where I have taught for 12 years, however, that is now a requirement. Students seem not to know instinctively that certain behaviors are rude or impolite, or that they have an obligation to treat each other and the professor with a modicum of respect. (The foregoing paragraph is simply an example of rudeness now and rudeness 30 years ago, not a subtle remark about anything that might have been perceived by anyone to have occurred in this topic, incidentally.) Groveling, by the way, was not then and is not now a necessity for apologizing. And apologies were not then and aren't now an indication that one is eating crow or takes back the intent of one's commentary. \"I apologize\" means simply that one is indeed sorry for having inadvertantly offended someone, not that one is sorry one expressed an opinion and is now reconsidering that opinion. The gracious response to someone's apology is to accept it. I accept yours, Stacey."}, {"response": 130, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (17:32)", "body": "well thank you..."}, {"response": 131, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Tue, Sep 14, 1999 (23:48)", "body": "I must admit, this has made for some extremely engaging and enlightening reading."}, {"response": 132, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (05:06)", "body": "Moonbeam, what is it that makes you take offense at things people say so quickly? First you were offended at my remark that the idea of forgiving Hitler was almost immoral in a sense, then at Stacey's teasing, then at my and Terry's teasing each other, then at my offering of friendship without apology, since I didn't think I had anything to apologize for. Hell, you seem to take offense at just about EVERYTHING every person here has said in the last few days. And if have to say your 'apology' to Stacey idn't sound like an apology to me at all. First giving a lecture on manners, then rounding it off with a little emotional blackmail? I think that's low, because it's rudeness under a layer of sugar. I don't know....somehow I get the feeling you have a real problem when people don't play it EXACTLY as you do or as you want them to. Has it ever occurred to you that when that happens, it is NOT because they are rude, but because they have minds of their own? Don't you think people can be friends without aving to exchange lectures about behaviour and making each other feel bad about the way they are all the time? Like just accepting people for what they are? Well, that's kind of how it functions around here. People are allowed to be what they are, and respected for it. Not every word people say have strings attached to them. Though, if that's the way you play it, then we'll have to respect that too. Just one thing: don't play headgames with me, because I do not take kindly to it."}, {"response": 133, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (07:05)", "body": "You could say that, John, uh, last post for example. Could Ree possibly have had more caffeine that me this morning?"}, {"response": 134, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (07:10)", "body": "Gentle Riette, It appears you are reading more into my postings than I intend. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain what about my directness resembles \"attached strings\" in your book? From here, your words appear unnecessarily uncongenial, rather like kindling thrown upon the dying ashes of an accidental brushfire -- e.g., \"Hell, you seem to take offense at just about EVERYTHING every person here has said in the last few days.\" I have no choice but to respect your right to be as rude as you like here, as you are apparently one of the playground managers, but please cease lecturing me about the definitions of a word for which you demonstrate so little regard."}, {"response": 135, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (10:01)", "body": "No, I don't think I'm being unfair. And if I'm uncongenial it is because I don't like it when people act two-faced. If you are really as sweet-nature and well-mannered as you would like to think yourself, and as you lecture everyone else to be, you might have started off here with a 'Hi, everyone, I'm so and so ...' Instead you fall in by criticising people left and right, accusing them in an utterly unfair manner, then expect THEM to apologize; and when you DO bother to apologize to those you treat unfairly for doing so, it is in a manner that is half-hearted, patronizing and hypocritical. Frankly, I'd rather be truthfully rude than surface- friendly. The way you have acted here up to now had nothing to do with directness, you were merely being a prune with nothing better to do than talking AT rather than TO people. Other people come here to make friends; I just wonder what you are doing here."}, {"response": 136, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (10:02)", "body": "And, by the way, stop adding adjectives to people names; it's irritating."}, {"response": 137, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (11:29)", "body": "\"Irritating\" - Riette, you are priceless! Gotta remember that... Huh, some catch-up reading to do... Y'all havin' had fun?! Good! More soon (have to get some serious sleep first...)."}, {"response": 138, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (11:34)", "body": "Is the three-knockdown rule in effect for this bout?"}, {"response": 139, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (11:58)", "body": "That only applies for US citizens. (Neither the EC nor Switzerland would extradite residents on the matter in question.)"}, {"response": 140, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (12:13)", "body": "Gentle Rie...er, Reader, You might wish to acquaint yourself with the writings of another of my generation, Judith Martin (\"Miss Manners\"), author of numerous volumes of advice including one called \"Common Courtesy\": In which Miss Manners Solves the Problem that Baffled Mr. Jefferson Judith Martin \ufffdThe lack of agreement about manners results in an anger- ridden, chaotic society, where each trivial act is interpreted as a revelation of the moral philosophy of the individual actor, who is left standing there naked in his mores. We must standardize American manners, not only to complete Mr. Jefferson\ufffds unfortunately sidetracked project of developing a democratic etiquette, but to make order of the current chaos and to relieve people of the burden of developing and defending individual choices in the most common, everyday matters.\ufffd"}, {"response": 141, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (12:58)", "body": "Hi, Alexander! What have you been up to all these days? Does this mean the newest issue of Superstar is about to come out?? Nice to see you!"}, {"response": 142, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (17:01)", "body": "Miss Prune... catchy name... Miss Manners and her equally uptight sister Heloise never seemed much into forgiveness in my opinion. They both seemed quick to jump to conclusions and force their often antiquated beliefs onto others... Perhaps not squibbling over manners in favor of merely respecting each others tastes, opinions, sense of humor and feelings seems like a good bet... ... for all of us folk, regardless of how young we are... Hey Alexander... I bet you could up subscriptions by including a centerfold in your mag... how 'bout a rough and tumble South African Swiss Miss I know... *grin*"}, {"response": 143, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (17:26)", "body": "k....hi all. rambled through the above postings and it was entertaining, i must say. humans have that unique capability of being human and thus reacting as a human. so let's get on with the discussion. forgiveness: hmmmm....i've forgiven but that's not to say that everything was washed under the board. i don't know how to forget some of the bigger things that have impacted my life; however, to forget them would mean to wave them as having naught to do with my learning and overcoming. for me, i try to treat those misgivings as stepping stones. as opportunities for me to learn. it's not easy, and they don't appear as stepping stones for a long while after. ray, i had no idea you were really a PhD. that's my dream but don't ask me what i want it in (general studies??). actually, being a wolfie means that i am partial to my animal brothers and so my goal is to study animal behavior, emphasize in zoology, and research animal-human bonding. particularly wild animals, namely mammals. i don't know what species right now because so much has already been done with wolves and dolphins. suppose i should find a taper in australia or something and see what happens *gr n* oh, aviculture is also of great interest to me--raptors and parrot families."}, {"response": 144, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (17:35)", "body": "Yes, it'll be out Sept 30th.- What I find hard to forgive is judging people by where they come from. Or because of their language. Or because of their more or less refined manners. I have personally made many unsavory experiences with perfectly ordinary and well-established US citizens again and again. Good people, well-mannered, the whole thing. - I have just had a phone call from deep in the US, where some more of this stuff came to my attention. And I thought, fifteen years later, something might have changed. Well, some of you may by now have noticed I'm a helpless naive and dreamer. I now understand why all this manner-stuff - yes, Nan, you were right about quoting that bit about AMERICAN manners - is so important. It is necessary in the USA, because the society there might not have a coherent set of manners per se. Courtesies, rudimentary forms of respect, manners. See, here, every three-year-old e.g. learns even - absurd and mundane, but symptomatic, perhaps - to eat with knife and fork. E.g. y'alls own E. Aron Presley was never able to do that, ate just with a fork till his death. But manners are one thing, means to an end another - here, the question is, what do I use these manners for? Or, rather, if I have no manners, or do not apply them... Or apply them unto others, but don't act accordingly myself. I'm sick of hearing the same things again and again, and I'm sick of repeating myself about crap. I realise that what Nan describes as manners are a necessity in a place like the US. I see that these are things very much implicit in daily life in Europe. Yes, I am damn mad right now - the Spring's own 300 pound gorilla on the loose, so to speak -, and I will explain when I've cooled off. I'm not mad at anything any of you posted, it's not at all related with you. Honestly. This is my life, my world, and it's just your country belongs to that (so this answers the occasional question about what kind of business of mine the USA are, anyways). Plus this topic came handy. So, bear with me, as I rattle my chains. When I feel more, huh, topical, I'll read all the back log and add some more perfectly useless mumblings to all the good stuff above. right now, I rather feel like jumping into a plane, and talking seriously to some folks... lucky them, me broke..."}, {"response": 145, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (20:18)", "body": "Compare Father Knows Best or the Donna Reed Show to Xena or Buffy. Times have changed and so has the culture. Civility (what there was of it in post-Holocaust middle America) has given way to a harshness that, to my mind, is utterly out of control in our culture. In the fifties, if someone walked down the street with a safety pin in their eyebrow, the cops would have been looking for some sadistic freak who was torturing adolescents. Nowadays, the torture takes the form of psychological warfare with verbal \"smart bombs\" that go straight to the Amygdala."}, {"response": 146, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (20:30)", "body": "Columnist Rick Reilly in Sports Illustrated said that America has become \"Wiseguy Nation.\" It's basically true. What passes for humor nowadays is really just mean-spirited sarcasm. A Texan, a New Yorker, and a Californian went together to a restaurant for dinner. After they were seated their waiter said, \"Excuse me, gentlement, due to a shortage, no meat will be served tonight.\" The Texan asked, \"What's a 'shortage'?\" The Californian inquired, \"What's 'meat'?\" The New Yorker said, \"Wait, just a minute, pal. What's 'excuse me, gentlemen'?\""}, {"response": 147, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (21:06)", "body": "And the waiter said, \"What's a one-minute wait?\""}, {"response": 148, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (21:09)", "body": "A third of the way to a three-minute egg?"}, {"response": 149, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep 15, 1999 (23:30)", "body": "I can eat an egg faster than that."}, {"response": 150, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (00:51)", "body": "I can beat an egg faster than that."}, {"response": 151, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (03:06)", "body": "I can LAY an egg faster than that!"}, {"response": 152, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (03:08)", "body": "You win!"}, {"response": 153, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (08:31)", "body": "ha-ha! Sometimes being a woman can be so darned handy!!"}, {"response": 154, "author": "Isabel", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (10:34)", "body": "....Riette! Here's something for ya, from an old book I found \"Das Reich der Hausfrau/The Housewifes Kingdom\" Chapter \"R\ufffdcksichtsvolles Verhalten/Considerate Behaviour\": \"Man gehe stets auf der rechten Seite des Gehweges, damit hemmungsloser Verkehr m\ufffdglich ist\". Sorry, this joke can't be translatet into english)"}, {"response": 155, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (13:23)", "body": "Hmm... Which is the funny bit? I think that falls more or less under Swiss law!!"}, {"response": 156, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Thu, Sep 16, 1999 (14:44)", "body": "Hah, Isabel, you're most priceless, too! \"Hemmungsloser Verkehr\" - strong stuff! And Riette - ever the the most tactful polite understatement... So that's normal life in Switzerland?"}, {"response": 157, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 17, 1999 (03:35)", "body": "Oh, yes...."}, {"response": 158, "author": "Isabel", "date": "Sat, Sep 18, 1999 (14:17)", "body": "The Swiss must be a happy people, then... (hemmungslos=unrestrained, Verkehr=traffic, also: intercourse) Ok, let's get back to english, and drop the silly german humor...! And while we're at it, let's get back to the topic... Y'all talk, I'll listen!"}, {"response": 159, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Sep 18, 1999 (18:43)", "body": "(thanks for the translation, Dear!)"}, {"response": 160, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Sep 19, 1999 (03:16)", "body": "Isabel, the Swiss are indeed very happy people - you hear it in their voices, because they speak in decrescendos. And have very small families ...."}, {"response": 161, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sun, Sep 19, 1999 (10:18)", "body": "And trains that run on time."}, {"response": 162, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Sep 19, 1999 (12:45)", "body": "Aye. Whether that is a good or a bad thing? I still can't tell."}, {"response": 163, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Sep 19, 1999 (16:02)", "body": "At least they are predictable. Here, everything is so laid back that it runs on Hawaiian time...which translates as bye'n'bye...If you want a local to be on time you tell him to be there a half hour prior to when you want him to show up."}, {"response": 164, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sun, Sep 19, 1999 (23:57)", "body": "And if he's still late, you forgive him? ;)"}, {"response": 165, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Mon, Sep 20, 1999 (00:21)", "body": "Oh, indeed we do, or we would not have invited him in the first place. It like loving someone enough to forgive them just about anything, and trying to understand all things, even if we cannot forgive right away. Love makes things so much easier on the one hand and so much more complex on the other. But, my willingness to forgive is first and foremost when I love deeply."}, {"response": 166, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Mon, Sep 20, 1999 (12:09)", "body": "Barry, Riette, I see that unrestrained intercourse makes the trains arrive on time, but wouldn't uninhibitedly trafficking each other lead to larger families? If you forgive my question..."}, {"response": 167, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Sep 20, 1999 (16:46)", "body": "I forgive you... (does that count? ME forgiving you when you asked the question of Barry and Ree-head??? Hmmm... if not, will you please forgive me for being too bold and assuming?!) *chuckle*"}, {"response": 168, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Mon, Sep 20, 1999 (19:44)", "body": "But, my willingness to forgive is first and foremost when I love deeply. Mine too, Marcia. Mine too."}, {"response": 169, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Sep 20, 1999 (21:01)", "body": "I'm not that kind of an engineer."}, {"response": 170, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 21, 1999 (01:27)", "body": "Oh, but you would not need to be that kind of engineer, since the Swiss regard the highest level of 'unrestrained intercourse' as staying out of each other's way without actually having to say: 'Get outta my way!' THAT kind of intercourse has nothing to do with it."}, {"response": 171, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Sep 21, 1999 (07:57)", "body": "Ah. Precision choreography. Alas, I am not a graceful dancer. I even step on my own toes."}, {"response": 172, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 21, 1999 (08:05)", "body": "Ha-ha! I know what THAT's like! We should go dancing some time - then I can step on your toes as well!"}, {"response": 173, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Tue, Sep 21, 1999 (11:41)", "body": ";=}"}, {"response": 174, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Tue, Sep 21, 1999 (11:41)", "body": "Stacey, if this keeps up, you could make a hobby out of forgiving me!"}, {"response": 175, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Sep 21, 1999 (17:11)", "body": "my pleasure!"}, {"response": 176, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (07:45)", "body": "I'll wear my best pair of steel-tips shoes."}, {"response": 177, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (11:19)", "body": "ha-ha! You'll need 'em too, 'cos Mum's food was good last time I visited, so if I land on that toe of yours, you're done for!"}, {"response": 178, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (16:55)", "body": "I think I'll sit this one out. :)"}, {"response": 179, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (17:58)", "body": "It just might make you forget the aching teeth...!"}, {"response": 180, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (18:02)", "body": "\"I really don't mind it you sit this one out, M"}, {"response": 181, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (18:02)", "body": ""}, {"response": 182, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (18:04)", "body": "YAPP SUCKS! As I was trying to say when I was so rudely interrupted without even hitting the \"submit\" button: \"I really don't mind if you sit this one out, My voice is a whisper, your deafness a shout, I may make you sweat, but I can't make you think, Your sperm's in the gutter, your love's in the sink.\" --Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) \"Thick as a Brick\""}, {"response": 183, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (20:25)", "body": "Please pass the Drano..."}, {"response": 184, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (03:47)", "body": "What's Drano?? Sounds like a cross between a dragon and a dino."}, {"response": 185, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (16:21)", "body": "gotten that bad, has it...?"}, {"response": 186, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (16:23)", "body": "Drano is a granular drain cleaner which will dissolve you, the clog and anything that might be obstructing your drain. Very serious stuff!"}, {"response": 187, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (16:32)", "body": "actually... it will kill you! (i know, Stacey's a buzz killer, Stacey's a buzz killer) *grin*"}, {"response": 188, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (01:00)", "body": "ha-ha! However did we arrive at this killer bug thang????"}, {"response": 189, "author": "moulton", "date": "Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (07:33)", "body": "Last night I went to a talk at a Montessori school by a leading consultant in Montessori education. He told an anecdote about one boy who seemed disinterested in anything. The Montessori teacher finally contacted the parents to find out what interests the boy had. They told the teacher he was interested in waste and waste management. Garbage trucks held him in thrall. We live in a waste culture. We produce so much waste, it clogs our waste handling systems. Drano is to sinks as antacids are to stomachs. America now has the highest prison incarceration rate of any country in the world. One American in 135 is now in prison. We are disposing of people the way we dispose of landfill. We're gonna need a better waste management system in this country. Mebbe we should look into gas chambers. They worked for Hitler. We'll be needing them soon, to keep up with the human waste our culture produces."}, {"response": 190, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (08:13)", "body": "There are more black males aged 20-29 in prison in the US than in college. If we got into the business of gassing in the US, blacks and Hispanics would become what Jews were to Hitler. One difference, though. It would definitely start a race war, because the large black and Hispanic \"underclasses\" in the US, unlike European Jews, who were often middle-class and professional, are heavily armed and will choose to fight instead of hiding. Inner-city police often prefer to let gang wars play themselves ou instead of intervening or trying to stop them. They cynically refer to the phenomenon as the \"self-cleaning oven.\" The Russian immigrant underclass and gang culture is also a growing phenomenon, especially in New York and Chicago. I've always found it ironic how the marginalized and disenfranchised in our society would burn down their own neighborhoods in riots. The last big example was South Central L.A. after the \"Rodney King\" verdict. If the rioters--many of whom who were just their to loot--were collectively rioting for principle, they would be more effective if they were to storm Beverly Hills and Bel Air."}, {"response": 191, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (08:15)", "body": "Gawd, I used \"their\" when I meant \"there.\" It seems I'm learning more from my students than they are from me...not good."}, {"response": 192, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (11:41)", "body": "\"Mebbe we should look into gas chambers. They worked for Hitler.\" Barry, that's wrong. They caused him problems. What worked for him was the ovens, in which all evidendence vanished. Glad to have been of help."}, {"response": 193, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Sep 25, 1999 (02:46)", "body": "The most fascinating thing about history is that people don't learn from it."}, {"response": 194, "author": "Isabel", "date": "Sat, Sep 25, 1999 (09:41)", "body": "Maybe they do, but in the opposite way...."}, {"response": 195, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sat, Sep 25, 1999 (10:04)", "body": "After NATO demonstrated to the world the efficacy of taking out a nation's techno-infrastructure, I imagine that the next time the underclass feel like rioting, they will take a page from NATO and take down some power substations, communication towers, or highway bridges. That's the new model for warfare. Don't spill blood. Spill transformer oil."}, {"response": 196, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Sat, Sep 25, 1999 (20:27)", "body": "That's a better model for international warfare or terrorism. If you are looking to make a statement to America's elite, they can replace transformer oil. The only things they have that are irreplaceable are their lives."}, {"response": 197, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (02:27)", "body": "But it is never the elite who have to worry about their irriplaceable lives, is it?"}, {"response": 198, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (11:25)", "body": "and then who's left to forgive them?? (... getting myself in trouble again cause I just can't help it!) *grin* and no Ree-head... the elite seem quite protected from it all. Of course now in America, you (general you) should be more concerned about going to church or school or daycare or any other random formerly safe haven where someone is bound to come in a shoot the place up..."}, {"response": 199, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (12:42)", "body": "Who NEEDS forgiveness when you get to run society? Stacey, why do you think this strange phenomena of shooting in public places is occurring so frequently in a place like America? Why are the kids over there so violent?"}, {"response": 200, "author": "Isabel", "date": "Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (13:01)", "body": "Maybe they aren't more violent then elsewhere, but they get guns more easily..."}, {"response": 201, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (13:15)", "body": "It's not only kids. From what I see through CNN and the very intense German coverage, it's also many white males between thirty and fifty. A pattern?"}, {"response": 202, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (15:20)", "body": "I think I've expressed my views on 'why' a few times within the Spring... perhaps in cultures and/or education and/or somewhere else... I don't have any answers, just guesses... my ultimate theory being that this violence stems from an unaccountability which stems from a breakdown in the bonds of a community... lots of other external factors of course... individuals responding to their situations differently... makes me tired and sad and angry and concerned to think about..."}, {"response": 203, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (17:18)", "body": "I wish I could find something intelligent to say for a change (I know YOU all wish that ALL the time, well, I just once in a while). I tried, and failed, and when I don't, I feel I failed to."}, {"response": 204, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (17:44)", "body": "Thinking About Violence In Our Schools"}, {"response": 205, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 28, 1999 (01:05)", "body": "Thanks, Barry. An interesting article. The only problem is that people who are prone to react to all those factors won't be reading such articles; and those who aren't either don't really care, or are not in a position to do anything about it. It's terrible, isn't it?"}, {"response": 206, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Sep 28, 1999 (06:33)", "body": "You know the cliche about the prophet who sees the looming train wreck but can't get anyone to listen? That's me. It has to do with a method of reasoning called Recursion. About 1% of population learn to employ recursion, which is especially powerful when doing model-based reasoning. If you grok recursion, you can become a computer programmer, analyst, detective, or peacemaker. If you don't, you can become a lawyer, policeman, politician, or tyrant."}, {"response": 207, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Sep 28, 1999 (12:56)", "body": "How does Recursion work?"}, {"response": 208, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (10:21)", "body": "That's what I was wondering, Ree ree."}, {"response": 209, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (12:47)", "body": "Oh Barry!!! Recurse this way for some more discourse on your disclosure, will ya?"}, {"response": 210, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (12:55)", "body": "The best way I know of to learn about Recursion is to play with the Tower of Hanoi puzzle. It is easy to solve with Recursion, and nearly impossible without it. Yet one can learn Recursion in about 10 minutes, and master the Tower of Hanoi in 15 minutes. If you search the Web for \"Tower of Hanoi\" you will find some sites with Java animations of it that you can play with. Recursion involves repeating the same procedure over and over, but in such a way that net progress is made each time around the loop. In an untamed recursion, one repeats the process indefinitely without making any net progress. We are embedded in many recursive loops and processes, frequently without the insight necessary to organize them to systematically converge toward a desired outcome. An untamed recursion is like the ninety-nine hells, the quagmire that one cannot exit. A tamed recursion is one in which every step is in a good direction, bringing us systematically ever closer to the goal and to the exit. Computer scientists learn about recursion and employ it ingeniously to solve complex problems in an elegant and efficient manner. The Tower of Hanoi is perhaps the best known exercise in learning about recursion. Another place where it is used is in computing factorials and Fibonac i numbers."}, {"response": 211, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (13:39)", "body": "That's the clearest explanation you've given of anything, Barry. Very well said. I understand the concept now. Sometimes I read your stuff and I get lost in abstraction, but this was crystal clear. Cool."}, {"response": 212, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (18:12)", "body": "I appreciate that, Terry. Some of these abstract ideas don't travel well in ASCII text. There have been times that I needed to invent a computer animation to express an idea. On the web, I don't have access to the means to generate animations."}, {"response": 213, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (22:37)", "body": "You get out there sometimes Barry and lose me, but if you could explain things like you just did that would be awesome."}, {"response": 214, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (03:45)", "body": "Yes, he's got some pretty cool thoughts in that head of his."}, {"response": 215, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (11:35)", "body": "Just what I said! Whenever Barry gits to it and doesn't use prefabricated phrases and refrains from use of loaded lingo, I (a) understand what he says, and (b) even enjoy it! Come on, Mr. B! Gimme more!"}, {"response": 216, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (15:59)", "body": "Are prefabricated phrases those things where one actually THINKS before one says something?"}, {"response": 217, "author": "moulton", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (14:28)", "body": "It's like writing songs. One never knows which ones will be hits and which ones will be flops. One just keeps on writing songs. I think it has to do with the readiness of the audience. Every day the audience is ready for *something*. What is this audience ready for now?"}, {"response": 218, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (15:10)", "body": "More stuff that's custom-tailored, made-to-fit, and packs a load? (Riette, pre-fab phrases are the tv dinners of communication. They serve a noble function, are easy to use, work out somehow, but leave the consumer wanting.)"}, {"response": 219, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (15:26)", "body": "Platitudes might be a form of pre-fab phrases. I like your term for them! Jargonm, lingo also serve."}, {"response": 220, "author": "moulton", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (22:14)", "body": "> More stuff that's custom-tailored, made-to-fit, and packs a load? My theory is that to do that, I need to know with some precision your affective emotional state vis-a-vis possible topics. In other words, which topics arouse your curiosity, fascination, intrigue, puzzlement, confusion, or bewilderment?"}, {"response": 221, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (22:26)", "body": "...and astonishment?! But, I forgive you! (Is that not what this topic is all about - must go back and read the posts from the beginning...)"}, {"response": 222, "author": "moulton", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (22:49)", "body": "Yah, astonishment, amazement, delight, awe, or wonder."}, {"response": 223, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (23:05)", "body": "...works for me...*smile*"}, {"response": 224, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct  2, 1999 (01:55)", "body": "I think how one perceives of what others say depends not only on WHAT they say, but on the when, where, how and one's own state of mind."}, {"response": 225, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sat, Oct  2, 1999 (07:00)", "body": "The decoding of a message depends, among other things, on the decoding method."}, {"response": 226, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct  2, 1999 (12:45)", "body": "Yes - THAT'S what I meant! ....i think....RIGHT, Barry??"}, {"response": 227, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Oct  3, 1999 (22:38)", "body": "absotively! posilutely!"}, {"response": 228, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Oct  4, 1999 (09:48)", "body": "The only way to tell is to repeat the decoded message back to the sender and wait for them to ACK it with \"RIGHT, THAT'S IT -- ABSOTIVELY! POSILUTELY!\""}, {"response": 229, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct  5, 1999 (04:04)", "body": "Is that a fact? Barry, what do you do for a living? Are you a lecturer? No, not because you sound like you're lecturing all the time! It just sounds like you think alot about certain things all the time."}, {"response": 230, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Oct  5, 1999 (07:32)", "body": "It's a theory, ackshully. I do research on learning theory. I rarely do lectures. More like seminars. And yes, I spend a lot of time thinking about a lot of stuff that needs to be thought about."}, {"response": 231, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Oct  5, 1999 (09:55)", "body": "What sort of stuff? And do you sometimes think of other stuff just for the fun of it?"}, {"response": 232, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Oct  7, 1999 (08:06)", "body": "Stuff in Cognitive Science, stuff in Physics, stuff in Mathematics, stuff in Systems Science, stuff in Theology, stuff in Social Science. A lot of stuff I think of just for the fun of it, like Puns, Drama and Comedy. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 35, "subject": "Changing your wants", "response_count": 34, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sat, Aug 14, 1999 (08:26)", "body": "Where do desires come from? Sometimes desires are mimetic . That means that they are adopted by imitating the desires of others. Sometimes desires arise from deep-seated fears. For every deep-seated fear, there is a corresponding desire to be free from the grip of that fear. That desire can manifest itself as a desire for relief, for comfort or security, for some compensation or palliative, for achieving some elusive goal. One of the better ways to get rid of unwanted desires is to uncover the source of the desire. Do you want to do that?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Aug 14, 1999 (12:54)", "body": "I gather we are back to introspection as we are for all emotional needs we cannot put aside - as in forgiveness. Are not desires different from Needs on a very basic level? Desires are things we want but there is not a grinding need for them in our lives. Needs are so basic to our lives that without them, part of us is missing. It is fairly easy to get rid of unwanted desires, but those needs which reside in the core of our being are not so easily dispensed with."}, {"response": 3, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sun, Aug 15, 1999 (15:45)", "body": "We often make a distinction between needs and wants, in the sense that needs are indispensable whereas wants are amenities that are not required for survival. But in most cases, people don't agree on the boundary between wants and needs. And so we use the term \"desires\" to cover both cases. I clench my teeth, so I evidently have a \"grinding need\" for whatever missing thing in my life is causing me to clench them. But I know that I could very well live to an old age never learning or discovering the missing element that would bring my teeth clenching to a resolution. Do I need the solution? I surely want it, surely desire it. But do I need it? Will I die without it? Will I die because I lack it?"}, {"response": 4, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (10:17)", "body": "I'm not sure any response I give would be helpful... You see, I spend a good part of my life pursuing what I want... (probably because I don't draw that line well either Barry...) and often my pursuits have resulted in dismal failure BUT I couldn't stop (wouldn't stop) until I'd reached the end. Either success or failure or some other sort of resolution (like I got halfway there and realized my 'want' had waned...) Perhaps that sounds destructive to you? Perhaps it is. I suppose I could clarify and explain that material wants are not an issue usually and I can 'forget' those... don't know how... they just are cursory wants I guess... But my emotional and mental and spiritual wants... I see no need to supress those. After all... I believe I will only live once and I would like to live happily in pursuit of everything that may lead to that end. I certainly am an emotional extremist. Usually VERY happy but when I come down, it's hard and I am pretty darn miserable... Passion doesn't come in gray (IMHO) and when I want passionately I cannot (or will not) turn it off. I apologize WER, I realize that you may have asked that question for a legitimite answer and I have given you the antithesis of that... (and Barry... in response to your 'will I die?' post... if you want passionately enough something may become a need... and, yes, it is possible to die from extreme want... Have you never heard of lovesickness?... The saddest sight is watching someone want something with no visible path to success... wanting the return of a deceased spouse comes to mind... and perhaps... by wanting too much (or just enough?)... they die)"}, {"response": 5, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (13:53)", "body": "Stacey, you gave words to the very idea which has been hammering at me for months, and that is the want that becomes so desperate that it becomes a need in the very most basic sense of the word. Attaining that fulfillment may be self-destructive, but one is driven to pursue it because the need is so relentless."}, {"response": 6, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (16:26)", "body": "Jakob Bronowski said of our species, \"If we are any kind of machine at all, we are learning machines.\" Our need to learn is one of those desires that may own us. A gap in knowledge can be rilly rilly stubborn. It just wants to be filled. And so we can have a passion, an obsession, driven by a need to know, a need to find out, a need to discover. Mebbe that's why I'm a researcher. I need to know where that need to know comes from. :)"}, {"response": 7, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (17:36)", "body": "I knew there was a reason I was a researcher...that just has to be it, Barry. I need to know thy I need to know things. I am still perplexed about when what you want (need, actually) is not yours and cannot be yours. How do you change that?"}, {"response": 8, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (17:39)", "body": "I also need to know how to proof read my posts...that was I need to know why..."}, {"response": 9, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (17:59)", "body": "am trying to read all the posts and at the same time wanting to comment. i'm like stacey in that i don't want material things. well, unless you count wanting to have a farm and lots of animals material, which, it may be. what i want and what i need become the same only when the emotional response is so strong that it easily becomes one and the same and is indestinguishable to me. all people have basic needs (and shall i say all beings) and those needs must be met. a lot of what i want and what i need can be the same. someone who needs love may say i want love, i want a hug, when they mean they need a hug, they need love. i have realized that my wants aren't necessarily what is good for me to have. something can appear to be the answer to the want but in reality it is not. can i change what i want? yes. but that depends on circumstances. does what someone else want become what i want? not necessarily so. it depends on the type of want it is, if you follow me. is it emotional, physical, material, selfish, etc? get so tired of wondering if i'm happy or not. because i can think of a million things why i'm not and then can think of a million things why i am. my wants or so idealized that it's not possible to even happen. i have wants that are impossible and probably unappropriate because as i grow i learn more about what i want and need."}, {"response": 10, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (18:01)", "body": "marcia, i have a desire to know things too....and how come i never get my way?"}, {"response": 11, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (19:22)", "body": "My almost insatiable want to know things sometimes becomes misinterpreted as a need to always be right and often keeps others I care about from caring about me. Maybe I need to change my wants, too, but to what? To be more lovable? Does one need to compromise to be loved?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (20:35)", "body": "No changes, John; you have just been hanging around the wrong people. You do not need to compromise anything to be lovable. I know this...trust me. Because the intellectually sluggish resent anyone making them look less that curious, their only option other than actually putting forth the effort to learn something is to put you down. I know that...and it no longer works with me. Wolf, you never get your way...if I only knew!!! Me too. I am the last to be considered..."}, {"response": 13, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (21:20)", "body": "*hugs* john, marcia is right. if people don't care for you as you are, don't waste your time. unless, of course, the things that are you are dangerous to your safety and the safety of others. i'm saying, john, put the axe down, easy now! *hugs*"}, {"response": 14, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (22:15)", "body": "Wolf, your intuitive vision is excellent--fortunately, my name is not Raskalnikov [sic?]...my axe is made of hollow plastic!"}, {"response": 15, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Tue, Aug 17, 1999 (22:16)", "body": "And thanks for the vote of confidence, Marcia...even if among those who know me you happen to be a minority of one!"}, {"response": 16, "author": "moulton", "date": "Wed, Aug 18, 1999 (06:52)", "body": "Research is what I do when I don't know what I'm doing. I do a lot of research. Marcia, think of a partially assembled jigsaw puzzle with some tantalizing holes in it, some missing pieces. We need, we want, we desire those missing pieces. The jigsaw puzzle is a map of the territory. Those gaps in the maps are like a hole in the soul. We want to know our world so that we can navigate it from one end to the other. Why? Because at one end of the territory is hellmouth, and at the other end is heavensgate, or so we believe. And we feel the need to be able to break on through to the other side. We need a path and a jump-start for when we get stuck."}, {"response": 17, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Aug 18, 1999 (12:17)", "body": "Thank, Barry. The puzzle allegory is excellent. However, as soon as I fill in the tantalizing missing parts, I long for another puzzle, so I hunt one down. I also do a lot of research and puzzling (actually, I love doing jigsaw puzzles!)It is as though I am driven by the \"thrill\" of the hunt, rather than its success. When I am through with the puzzle, it no longer interests me."}, {"response": 18, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Aug 18, 1999 (12:21)", "body": "typical gemini trait if you ask me!"}, {"response": 19, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Aug 18, 1999 (13:15)", "body": "This is true...*grin*"}, {"response": 20, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Aug 19, 1999 (07:41)", "body": "There is but one jigsaw puzzle. The giant jigsaw puzzle of universal knowledge. And you will never run out of holes, gaps, chasms, or frontiers."}, {"response": 21, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Aug 19, 1999 (09:58)", "body": "gimme that edge piece over there please... ahhh! and a corner piece... NOW this is beginning to make some sense!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Aug 19, 1999 (11:47)", "body": "What's really fun is to compare partially assembled jigsaw puzzles with each other. Cuz we're all putting together maps of the same territory. The common frontiers are very romantic. Osculating frontiers. There are two kinds of osculating frontiers. Can you envision what they are? Hint: Look up osculating circles in geometry."}, {"response": 23, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (00:22)", "body": "Take it from me, you can really get knocked for a loop when you bump osculating frontiers with somebody."}, {"response": 24, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (14:25)", "body": "I understand completely...no matter how we intellectualize these things, it happens."}, {"response": 25, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (18:45)", "body": "(Was I intellectualizing again? Pass me the Ivory soap & I'll wash it out.)"}, {"response": 26, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (18:52)", "body": "Leave it alone... Cleanliness is next to Godliness, and I am not sure we could stand too much more Godliness in here...*grin*"}, {"response": 27, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Aug 26, 1999 (23:25)", "body": "Oh good. I'm in the right place then. ;)"}, {"response": 28, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Aug 27, 1999 (18:47)", "body": "Amen, sister!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (11:30)", "body": "I just wanna know... What is in that 56/100 % impurity, anyway?"}, {"response": 30, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (14:26)", "body": "The air they beat into it so it will float? Residual lye? Is it not necessary to print all ingredients on packages...? Hmmmmm....."}, {"response": 31, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (14:45)", "body": "fragrance and fluff (sawdust? rat guts?) oops... wrong topic!"}, {"response": 32, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Aug 31, 1999 (14:58)", "body": "*LOL*"}, {"response": 33, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Jul 19, 2000 (19:38)", "body": "and we are back to desiring what we can't have ....."}, {"response": 34, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Oct 31, 2002 (15:23)", "body": "Always a dangerous position... philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 36, "subject": "How does wealth affect people?", "response_count": 12, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov  2, 1999 (12:46)", "body": "Today I was such a weirdo. One of the mums at Isa's school invited us around for dinner. I expected the normal thing where you go to a normal middle class person's and eat french fries and hotdogs to keep the kids happy. Then we got there, and these people live in a MANSION. Which is the understatement of the year. The house has 10 bedrooms for one thing, and a dining table (at which we had to eat!) which seats about 80 people - MASSIVE. The woman is lovely lovely, totally down to earth and obviousl very at ease with her surroundings. But I found myself feeling utterly akward. I don't know why though. I like her as much now as before I went, but I stood there my mouth hung open; I always knew people could be rich, but I've never actually been confronted with it, i.e. been IN such a house, peeing in a bathroom with solid marble tiles and eating with genuine silver cutlery and such things. It was nuts and scary. Why does one feel like that?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Nov  3, 1999 (07:59)", "body": "that is a perfectly normal response to the newness of it all, ree. i used to have the same reaction as a kid to carpeting and air conditioning! maybe the reason it makes you feel bad or uncomfortable (?) is because the wealth makes you think of a class distinction, of us and them? i'd luv to have a home like that!"}, {"response": 3, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Nov  3, 1999 (11:40)", "body": "Ree, Money doesn't care who has it. Remember that and that you are equal in every way to the lady who was your hostess. I was raised in that atmosphere, and if my Mother had not entertained my friends and their Mothers, I would have ended up as a terrible snob - just like others I went to school with. Having money does not make you different - it is the attitude toward it that makes the difference. I thought we were poor...my Dad kept us on a tight budget and we had to account to him for what we had u ed the money. It was excellent training for the time when I did not have money and was newly married to a PhD at the bottom of the academic ladder. I now have all of the silver I could ever want and do not use it...but, it is lovely stuff and so nice to have. Ray, you'll get to that sized house - if you still want one that big. The one I grew up in was huge and without 3 daughters to help her (no hired help though my father could have well afforded it) it would have been impossible to keep the place as lovely as it was. I never aspired to a huge house - way too much for me, I'm afraid!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Nov 12, 1999 (08:56)", "body": "let's see... if Brandon and I were independently wealthy... our house wouldn't change nor would many of our other material things... but you can bet that last dollar we'd RARELY be home! I'd spend it all on travel and new experiences!! Lots of money affords people more choices IMHO and it's interesting to see what choices people make."}, {"response": 5, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 12, 1999 (11:56)", "body": "I think I'd go for travel too. I never want to feel as lost as I felt that day in my own home."}, {"response": 6, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Fri, Nov 12, 1999 (13:03)", "body": "I can empathise with the feeling Ree. I felt like that coming back to England from Africa. I don't know whether self-image comes into it too. I decided ages ago that poverty is relative. In Britain I'm not rich, advertising, other people's homes etc make me aware of what I haven't got, but in Africa relatively speaking I'm very rich. In Cameroon when I was staying in a village with a family I hid half the (few) clothes I'd taken and was glad all my undies were the same colour, because I was so embaras ed by what I had. Yet, we all have aspirations, and that's not wrong. I aspire to have a really good computer that does all I need it to - oh, and a printer that can print photos!"}, {"response": 7, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 13, 1999 (02:13)", "body": "That's a good one! I agree that it must be relative. I mean, I've never thought of myself as poor; my kids don't have to make do with second-hand clothes or toys, if I need something I can go out and buy it and so on. I'm defenitely alot better off financially than I was in Africa. But when I stood in that great big house and imagined the kind of money and effort that must go into it (my friend doesn't have a cleaning lady) I just thought to myself: does she own the house, or does the house own her? That's what scared me. I don't ever want to be owned by anything."}, {"response": 8, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, Nov 13, 1999 (04:48)", "body": "I agree. Don't you think that 'simplicity' is difficult though? It seems (to me!) to be more difficult to live a simple uncluttered life than a materialistic cluttered one. Recently my TV died, my car got totalled and my hard disk did something stupid (well, I own up it me was me actually). I felt bereft, angry, and then angry at myself for being so dependent on these 'things'. Yet, how to detach from being oned by them?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Nov 13, 1999 (11:59)", "body": "Being owned by one's house is precisely something i can relate to. Most frightening when storms tear off your roof and your bank account is modest. The obligations are enormous... Love the horizontal bars in here. Are they new, as well???"}, {"response": 10, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Nov 14, 1999 (02:37)", "body": "Defenitely. Maggie, I think that money corrupts, fulstop. I mean, I live ALOT more modestly than my friend, so I can say that people richer than me are corrupted by money, because they 'need' to live in luxury, whereas I know that one can be perfectly content without owning a flashy car and house. But then again there are alot of people who are ALOT worse off and that doesn't kill them either. So in theory I can give perhaps at least half my income to charity organizations to make life easier for those poorer than me. But I feel like I 'can't', because I don't know how I'd manage (even though others do). So I'm corrupted even by the modest means that I have."}, {"response": 11, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sun, Nov 14, 1999 (03:06)", "body": "I find myself reacting to the word 'corrupted', perhaps because I don't want to feel I am! Society does put an enormous pressure on the individual, most of which we don't realise. We are pressured to conform whether it's in body shape,attitudes or possessions. It takes a lot to resist that pressure and say 'I like the way I am, I have enough I don't need more'. I think this about more than money, although, obviously it has a lot to do with it. I was amazed once when we got some windfall shares at how m ch of a hold they had on me. I kept checking the market to see if they'd gone up or down. In the end I got rid of them because I didn't like the feeling. Perhaps if I'd had a lot it wouldn't have mattered. I don't know, but it felt uncomfortable. There's a lot of difference between knowing and feeling! I can know that I can live simply, but feelings make me 'feel' I can't get rid of everything. We're 'de-cluttering' at the moment preparing to move again to Africa next year. It's a sort of grief pr cess. Can't get away from those feelings. Need to recognise them and work through them."}, {"response": 12, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Nov 14, 1999 (17:23)", "body": "Subject: Money Money can buy a house but not a home. Money can buy a bed but not sleep. Money can buy a clock but not time. Money can buy a book but not knowledge. Money can buy food but not an appetite. Money can buy position but not respect. Money can buy blood but not life. Money can buy medicine but not health. Money can buy sex but not love. Money can buy insurance but not safety. You see, money is not everything. Therefore, if you have too much, please, send it to me, immediately. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 37, "subject": "Eternal Return", "response_count": 2, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Jul 11, 2000 (13:15)", "body": "Welcome Back, Americ! We have missed you - I arrived just after you departed and did not have the pleasure of interacting with you. My conference is Geo where good stuff is happening. Please pop in and look around. http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/geo/all/"}, {"response": 2, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Tue, Jan 30, 2001 (07:55)", "body": "Come back Americ! philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 38, "subject": "Clocks", "response_count": 13, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Jul 15, 2000 (23:39)", "body": "Good topic, Americ! I am a staunch advocate for using coordinated Universal time world-wide. The do on ShortWave Radio and it makes life so much simpler. Time organizes a world of fractured associations and enables us to meet with those not otherwise possible, enjoy live ball games which have some time constraints, and many other things. I could not attend a concert or the theater or get to class on time without some sort of understood time and place to meet. I could not teach one, either! Do we not cause our own stress in many of these instances by trying to cram too many things into a finite time limit?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Jul 16, 2000 (09:56)", "body": "Do we not cause our own stress in many of these instances by trying to cram too many things into a finite time limit? This is a great question; a great insight. The mind can certain think of far more things to do in one day; than the body could ever follow up on."}, {"response": 3, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Jul 16, 2000 (13:04)", "body": "In a rested state, the night before, all things are possible. Therefore, the \"to do\" list is heaped with possibilities for the next day. By dawn's early light the next day, few things look possible. Coffee is mainlined, food trivialized and we set ourselves up for the inevitable stress and frustration. The rat race is on, and, as has been pointed out, the Rats are winning!"}, {"response": 4, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sun, Jul 23, 2000 (11:05)", "body": "Is there not a certain amount of perceptional elasticity in 'time'. Have you noticed how time seems to fly past when you're having fun, and equally drags when you're bored or doing something you don't want to do. The clock marches on counting the seconds, minutes, hours, with clockwork (atomic?) precision but our perceptions of those boundaried units is strange. My perception of what and how much I can do in a given time slot changes according to my mood, time of day, stress levels etc. Sometimes I get it right and am realistic and would say I have made good use of time. At other times I am hopelessly out, and overestimate wildly what I can accomplish and get stressed out. Time perhaps is a man-made construct, an attempt to provide order out of chaos. In Africa I rarely wear a watch, and don't miss it at all. Here in the UK I am ruled by time, even when I don't have meetings to attend or other functions where a sense of 'time' is important. My perception is that society here is obsessed by time, society in Africa is not, at least not in the same way. Does that mean chaos rules when time is not in focus? doesn't appear to be so. Other aspects of life seem far more important, like just surviving."}, {"response": 5, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Mon, Apr 30, 2001 (19:50)", "body": "I'm about nine months late to this topic, but there you go. I'm actually disappointed that I missed it because the few things that have been written above all strike quite a chord. I think the \"perception\" of time is very interesting. I would hypothesise that we \"see\" as much in a given time span as we think we need to. For example, when one is having fun one always wants to \"have more fun\" and therefore I would say we constantly strive ahead to reach the next \"fun\", doing this over and over until the \"fun\" runs out / comes to an end. Then we think \"Oh, time flies when you're having fun!\". I would possibly argue that it only flies because one is too busy enjoying one's self to notice time passing. On the other hand, when one is bored, there is nothing else to notice except the passing of time. Therefore, each second becomes more closely scrutinized. I believe that that scrutiny \"lengthens\" the second, or the perception of it. The most intriguing thing, for me, is the apparent lengthening of time when something bad / stressful is happening - before a road accident, or when you know someone is about to give you terrible news...the state of what I would call \"heightened awareness\" that I feel in those moments, and the amount of thought and information that can be packed into only a few seconds at most is quite stunning. I often think that if I could get to that level of consciousness in normal life then I could achieve some great things (or at least solve some tough mathematics problems!)."}, {"response": 6, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Fri, May 18, 2001 (06:22)", "body": "Now to get to that level of consciouness Mike ...and get my thesis finished!!!! (grin) I find myself 'second watching' in the gym ...the only place I think I do it in ..except I find myself counting in tens .. and it does seem to help with keeping on going. Is there something going on with the 'conscious/unconscious' mind here? just babbling and avoiding writing ........"}, {"response": 7, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 19, 2001 (02:52)", "body": "Oooo...I know what you mean about counting in tens. Whenever I'm doing some kind of repetitious exercise (push-ups, crunches, whatever) I *always* find it easier if I just count in tens - getting to \"9\" for the fifth time is easier than getting to \"49\"!!"}, {"response": 8, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, May 19, 2001 (04:03)", "body": "Do we have an underlying (default)decimal system that causes us to do this or is is conditioning???"}, {"response": 9, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, May 19, 2001 (09:20)", "body": "I don't know. Tens are certainly easy to count in, which is probably why they're so popular :-)"}, {"response": 10, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, May 19, 2001 (12:40)", "body": "The Wolof (Senegal) counting system is based on 5 ... and so is Bambara (Mali) ... I never did work out the money in the market .. we use cfa (the west african franc) notes, but calculate in Bambara .. too complicated fro my little brain. Back to concepts of time ... is time, like colour, a culturally determined concept. Until relatively recently in the UK we had 'local times' with very little standardisation. I think the trains made a huge difference to that."}, {"response": 11, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, May 19, 2001 (13:25)", "body": "Look at this ... you'll need shockwave or similar to view it properly http://www.britannica.com%2Fclockworks%2Fmain.html"}, {"response": 12, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, May 19, 2001 (13:28)", "body": "If that link doesn't work ... try http://familyinternet.about.com/parenting/familyinternet/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britannica.com%2Fclockworks%2Fmain.html It's a really cool site in britannica.com which has masses interactively on time and clocks."}, {"response": 13, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Jun 21, 2001 (03:35)", "body": "I count in 3s from ages of intricate knitting. Takes lionger to get to 49 cruches but it does get you close. Wish Americ would join in these deicious discussions he starts. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 4, "subject": "The Eye of the Paradox", "response_count": 32, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "Geez", "date": "Fri, Nov 14, 1997 (23:49)", "body": "I've only read part of your booklet so far, and have especially enjoyed your \"Tao of Water\" chapter. You mentioned water tasting in the future. After reading that paragraph, it made me think for the last couple of days how that could happen. Would people really purchase different samples of water to taste the different impurities? Could someone be able to tell the difference between water from New York as compared to Texas? I don't drink wine, and can't tell the difference between Napa Valley and the best French wines, but I can see the water tasting as a definate possibility. As for the impurities, it can't be any worse for the human body than Taco Bell."}, {"response": 2, "author": "Geez", "date": "Fri, Nov 14, 1997 (23:51)", "body": "Americ, you may want to consider posting \"The Eye of the Paradox\" URL in your \"Being Wired, Being Human\" conference area. I'm sure the rest of your students will enjoy reading it as well."}, {"response": 3, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Nov 15, 1997 (13:04)", "body": "Water tasting is great thing to do. You might go to a store that had some Itialian, French and American waters to start. Or, try different types of American waters -- with and without bubbles. It is fun. Curtis -- welcome to The Spring. I like your idea of posting the \"Eye of the Paradox\" to the \"BeingWire, BeingHuman\" conference at GGU."}, {"response": 4, "author": "terry", "date": "Sun, Nov 16, 1997 (22:50)", "body": "I second that, go for it Curtis! And welcome!"}, {"response": 5, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (09:38)", "body": "Back to the water... definite differences in water from Texas springs and Colorado springs. Texas is built on tons of coleche (sp?) rock, basically limestone. The water is naturally filtered through the rocks and, when bottled or sipped from a spring, has a considerable amount of minerals within. You can almost chew some Texas spring waters."}, {"response": 6, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (12:41)", "body": "Does this mean that people in Texas have better teeth? ...assuming that there is more calcium in the water."}, {"response": 7, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (13:18)", "body": "If it warn't fer all that tabacky we chew, maybe we wud..."}, {"response": 8, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (13:56)", "body": ":)"}, {"response": 10, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (01:14)", "body": "the dark side of too much mineral in the water. i see. so the philosophy of moderation prevails! i think it was Aristotle who promoted that view. i am also into it -- even moderate about being moderate. excess now and then is good for the soul."}, {"response": 11, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (03:25)", "body": "Agreed- excessive moderation numbs the soul (which can really be a drag). And- as Disraeli said- \"There is moderation even in excess.\" Far more compelling than the former, don't you think?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (10:50)", "body": "Actually, back to the teeth... people in San Antonio sometimes have 'worse' teeth because the water is untreated and there is no flouride added."}, {"response": 13, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (11:55)", "body": "So here we are -- uncovering deep philosophical problems of knowledge and science. So easy to make assumptions. Yet, every assumption that I am making about TX and San Antonio is wrong. I passed through Texas once on AmTrack. It just went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...... That tell my something, but not much."}, {"response": 14, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (12:20)", "body": "At least you are open to insight -- there are some who would've taken the same train ride, thought the same thoughts and never looked beyond or accepted an explanation beyond what they experienced with their own 'limited' sight."}, {"response": 15, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (15:32)", "body": "I think one of the best reasons for practicing/doing philosophy is to train the mind to stay open. \"Your mind is like a parachut, to use it, you must open it.\" --Anon"}, {"response": 16, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (10:50)", "body": "And for dealing with those whose minds are closed: \"There ain't no way to find out why a snorer can't hear himself snore.\" -- Mark Twain"}, {"response": 17, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (14:04)", "body": "Very apt quote (and a little Twain is a welcome respite from a dismal day)..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (00:51)", "body": "Good work! I love it."}, {"response": 19, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (10:08)", "body": "Another of my favorites (for those \"dismal\" days, nick): \"The true way goes over a rope which is not stretched at any great height but just above the ground. It seems more designed to make people stumble than to be walked upon.\" -- Franz Kafka Of course, I am feeling good today and reminded: \"It is good to have an end to journey toward, but it is the journey that matters in the end.\" Ursla K. LeGuin (that is my ABSOLUTE favorite quote! perhaps because I am often changing directions, altering purposes and occassionally I become frustrated with my lack of \"vision.\") Funny. I could never remember the periodic table but favorite quotes... they're begging to be etched permanently upon my brain!"}, {"response": 20, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (13:45)", "body": "What book or Ursula's did that quote come out of?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (17:55)", "body": "Enjoyed both quotes, and agree with sentiments expressed in each...\"Vision\" is mostly over-rated anyway, don't you think? Simple dreams are best, not only because they're achievable- they wear better, too... As for me- Give me a look, give me a face, that makes simplicity a grace; Robes flowing loosely, hair as free: Such sweet neglect more taketh me than all the adultries of art; They strike mine eyes, but not mine heart... (Ben Jonson)"}, {"response": 22, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (09:51)", "body": "I do enjoy Ben Jonson as well. Paul, I cannot remember where the LeGuin quote originated, it's been in my brain for awhile! I see if I can find out this weekend for you."}, {"response": 23, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (10:06)", "body": "Good morning Stacey."}, {"response": 24, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (10:20)", "body": "Good Morning!"}, {"response": 25, "author": "Sinfear", "date": "Fri, Jan  2, 1998 (14:40)", "body": "wow Americ, that really was a great read. Bought back alot of feelings especially liked what you wrote about money, money-lust etc. Hmm I find it soo easy to get trapped in the rat race, and is such an inspiration to read that you act on your beliefs and a managing well. I have a friend who refuses to use her tax file number and last I heard of her she was even closing her bank account, she refuses to be another number in the system. Though her perants have requested she seek pyschological evalutaion. I know she finds it really hard to be accepted and to hold a job, but she is happy. I though take a subtle approach to these ideas, like the biblical passage be in the world but not of the world. and such other saying as the love of money is the root of all evil would you say you belive in that quote?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Jan  3, 1998 (00:52)", "body": "Money is not the problem; it is the confusing of money for life itself that is the problem. For some money is God -- that is a serious problem. We work for life, not for money. So I am thinking. Anyway, I am glad read the eye of the paradox book here on the web."}, {"response": 27, "author": "LorieS", "date": "Fri, Jan  9, 1998 (12:38)", "body": ""}, {"response": 28, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Fri, Jan 19, 2001 (09:32)", "body": "Good morning."}, {"response": 29, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Fri, Mar 30, 2001 (09:08)", "body": "Actually it's mid-afternoon.... but I'm still bleary-eyed after missing a nights sleep ... overnight flights are a bummer"}, {"response": 30, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Fri, Mar 30, 2001 (11:10)", "body": "Did they give you a window seat? Pillow?"}, {"response": 31, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Fri, Mar 30, 2001 (14:04)", "body": "yup both ...but the film was stupid and I couldn't sleep"}, {"response": 32, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Sat, Mar 31, 2001 (13:06)", "body": "Any interesting sights out your window?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sun, Apr  1, 2001 (11:21)", "body": "Brussels was kinda nice by night ... lots of twinkly lights. london was a bit dreary although itwas fun following the Thames for a bit and trying to guess where we were. philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 5, "subject": "Truth...what is it?...is there such a thing?", "response_count": 92, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Fri, Nov 14, 1997 (18:54)", "body": "Do you believe in a concept of Absolute Truth - i.e. a fact which is immutable?"}, {"response": 2, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Nov 14, 1997 (20:07)", "body": "Am dubious of the proveability of any truth, much less that which is Absolute. What Stacey said was accurate (nearly said true)- truth is subjective, and it is reasonable for enlightened people to respect the veracity of other people's truths, and perhaps even agree with some. This hardly, though, bespeaks the existence, or even the possibility, of Universal or Absolute Truth. It does bespeak good manners, however..."}, {"response": 3, "author": "Geez", "date": "Fri, Nov 14, 1997 (23:34)", "body": "I believe in truth, however, only as I can see it. Universal truth would be difficult and contrary to some people who may not agree just for the sake of not agreeing."}, {"response": 5, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Nov 15, 1997 (13:11)", "body": "I claim that there is Truth, but that kind of Truth must admit of contradictary statements (i.e., paradox) in order to embrace that which IS. \"A is A\" or \"Dogs are dogs\" are absolute truths, but they don't say much. People who read the Bible believe that it speaks of a rich absolute truth, but be aware that the Bible has to speak in paradoxes, contradictions, and parables in order to get at, or suggest, certain truths that cannot be expressed in ordinary, simple, direct statements. The absolute truth, whatever that is, is not always easy to put our hands around."}, {"response": 6, "author": "justthinking", "date": "Sun, Nov 16, 1997 (10:49)", "body": "I believe there are absolute truths, but man is limited in his/her ability to undersand. Take for example the basic laws of thermodynamic, where you can follow it's evolution. Science admits these laws are often refinded based upon our undersanding, but this doesn't mean there isn't some pure law that is a universal truth."}, {"response": 7, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Nov 16, 1997 (12:16)", "body": "Yes, the limits of our understanding may also set limits on what truths we can grasp. These little limited body/minds of ours are constantly pushing toward the limits of the known. Humans are amazing! I believe it was the Greek sophist, Protagerus (sp?) who said that, \"Man is the measure of all things, both of what is and what is not.\""}, {"response": 8, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (09:44)", "body": "Whether there exists an Absolute Truth... I can think of only one and that is that truth is what it is and what it is not based on each individual. I believe that the only way to find the absolute truth is to find your own unique way. \"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mantainence\" seemed to request an answer to that same question, or at least to ask the question. I think I ended up creating a chart posturing Reason against (and then with) Love. IN my mind, the entire setup begged the question, Is there Absolute Truth or Absolute Love?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (11:56)", "body": "Must these be exclusive (Absolute Truth and Love, I mean)?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (12:03)", "body": "You have to read the book... I don't believe so, in fact, I believe they are inextricably connected and feel like my best decisions are made when I've thoughtfully assimilated the two."}, {"response": 11, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (12:45)", "body": "Truth, Love, Beauty -- perhaps these are all the same in the end. But our body/mind/spirits interpret them through differing filtering systems so as to deal with different \"aspects\" of reality or life. Love seems warm, however. Truth seems cold. Interesting...."}, {"response": 12, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (13:08)", "body": "Can see that. Must believe, though, that being as it is a creature of passion, Love is intrinsically removed (to it's everlasting benefit and credit) from the somewhat sterile intellectual considerations of human beings. Love is the only thing larger than ourselves that we can definitively know (though we can never prove it, nor understand it- like Yeats said,\"Love is the crooked thing/ and there's no one wise enough to know all that is in it.\"), and probably the only ennobling aspect of our existence. And unproveable nd intellectually unknowable as it may be, is it not the most profoundly genuine thing we are capable of?"}, {"response": 13, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (14:00)", "body": "Yes, love is the greatest aspect of human life. From love we came and to love we go. In between we play many games afraid of what love will do to us which may be nothing less than the elimination of the ego or sense of self-separation which some call \"fear\"."}, {"response": 14, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (16:19)", "body": "Don't believe we're so much afraid of love as we are of it's fragility, and what we perceive to be it's transience... And isn't elimination of ego and self-separation more commonly referred to as death?"}, {"response": 15, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (19:25)", "body": "Yes, death. But I think that there are many kinds of death. Everyday, we die in various ways, as we surrender stuff or viewpoints that are not real. Sometimes this is painful; sometimes this is joyful. If we tend toward enlightenment, we may even discover times of blissful acceptance of the reality that is greater than the small self. So it seems when I can get clear about it all. Not always felt that way, however."}, {"response": 16, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (20:45)", "body": "Guess it is reduced, finally, to personal value judgements- and integrating them with our realities (no mean feat). One man's enlightenment, after all, is another's darkness. The realities greater than ourselves are love and death, and the meaning of each is nebulous (in the larger sense, I mean- our individual relationship with each is pretty much rife with specificity), and subject to endless interpretation. To accept our \"smallness\" (if that's what you're referring to as the beginning of enlightenment) is an idea intellectually sound, yet I must wonder how practiceable it is, for many- sort of counter to the nature of those whom Wolfe referred to as \"man-alive\"- that aspect of human beings (derived, perhaps from spiritual intellect) which simply cannot/will-not sink gladly into the night..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 17, 1997 (23:19)", "body": "What you say is quite (poignantly) true- but consider the alternative, and ask yourself how one could manage to live even in such a world managing NOT to love. Would think one would better not live; to be \"looped in the loops of her hair\"- even briefly- justifies the suffering, doesn't it?"}, {"response": 21, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (01:19)", "body": "\"Love makes the world go 'round.\" \"Love is the heartbeat of the universe.\" La Trveatta (sp?) Anyway. Love is one of the ultimate subjects of philsophy. I go opening yet another topic ... on love!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (03:15)", "body": "KitchenManager, what in the hell did \"she\" do to you? I'm not acquainted with that kind of love- if I were, perhaps it would change my perspective, a bit... Have been genuinely in love once- and she died, long ago- but would not trade the experience, despite the loss, despite the pain, for anything. It is my personal truth, the only one I know..."}, {"response": 23, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (11:57)", "body": "...you are blessed with such a deep love..."}, {"response": 25, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Nov 22, 1997 (02:25)", "body": "Glad to hear that...Can tell that you're a decent, sincere guy, and know- from clinical observation, mind you- that sincere people can be easily hurt...But most guys I know that fall into that category (yes, a few actually are willing to be seen talking to me) get hurt only because they invest themselves in the wrong people, then persuade themselves that women, in general, don't value those qualities, and by extension won't value them...Not true, of course, because I know lots of women who value those qua ities above all else (of course, they're not willing to be seen talking to me), and have a really hard time finding men that possess them (this \"graceless age\", per Don Henley, doesn't exactly cultivate decency or sincerity, does it?)...To corrupt Robert Burns, you may have to trade thorns with many a \"fause luver\" to find your rose- but what else can \"signify the life o' man\"?"}, {"response": 26, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (10:01)", "body": "Sorry nick, got distracted... are you a Don Henley fan?"}, {"response": 27, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (10:32)", "body": "Yeah, sure...he's a great Texan (and Irish, I suspect)..."}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (10:57)", "body": "Ahhh... I am so accustomed to having people slam my affection for his lyrics. This is a welcome change!"}, {"response": 29, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (11:15)", "body": "Never understood that...With the Eagles some critics used to whine that his writing was \"misogynistic\", and specifically sexist, which only goes to show how narrow and literal some pc types can be...And as much as I like his Eagles stuff, he's shown amazing growth since...Don't know I've ever heard a more beautiful song than \"Heart of the Matter\"..."}, {"response": 30, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (11:56)", "body": "used to make me cry... Great taste in music, nick!"}, {"response": 31, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (12:07)", "body": "You know, we've corrupted poor Americ's topic beyond repair, I'm afraid...has he thrown up his hands?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (12:26)", "body": "That's the TRUTH! *on topic* *on topic*"}, {"response": 33, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (17:59)", "body": "Truth...is found in rock'n'roll, Jazz and all kinds of music. I appreciate the diversions. Makes this place much more interesting. ;)"}, {"response": 34, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (09:50)", "body": "Interesting point...rock and roll and poetry are one, really, to me...variations of the same thing, expressions of complicated truths, made simple by the kind of inexplicable dynamism achieved from combining words and meters, rhymes and rhythms- the sum always being far greater than the parts...It's as if it's achieved via some language each of us understands only at an instinctive level (though it's foreign to some music critics, and nearly everyone in Nashville)..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "terry", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (11:10)", "body": "What are some of your favorite rock lyrics?"}, {"response": 36, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (11:11)", "body": "Personal truths anyway."}, {"response": 37, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (12:16)", "body": "Yes, personal truths... My favorite song has always been Springsteen's \"Thunder Road\" (esp. the \"Live\" version, recorded at the Roxy, in '75 or '76, with Bruce on piano)...The lyrics are as good as I've heard, and they are complemented by one of the most wistful, longing pieces of music I've experienced...the musical refrain is simply hypnotic..."}, {"response": 38, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (13:09)", "body": "I always felt that way about BS's \"Jungleland\"--and that's the truth!"}, {"response": 39, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (13:55)", "body": "Yeah, that's a great song...Love that flourish, at the end...\"Man, the poets out here don't write nothin' at all/ they just stand back, and let it all be/ then- in the quick of the night/ they reach for their moment, and try to make an honest stand.../ And the wind up wounded, not even dead/ Tonight...in...\" and then it just explodes on the word \"jungleland\"...Out-Spectored Spector..."}, {"response": 40, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (13:20)", "body": "I think that truth is what you learn about yourself. Then to be let go of... because finding the truth has changed you, and it no longer applies. In each moment, we are something, and some truth describes us. Once we discover it, we can let go and proceed to the next adventure. Only one truth for each moment. I think Wisdom is the collective intent to gather truths that apply to everyone and everything.. thereby giving us comfort and security. But it will never happen because we all are different. And that is why there is truth for each of us, but not wisdom for all of us. I say; \"Be bold and through the damn word out! We don't need it anymore! Pull the anchor and set the mainsail! Let's have a big party and everybody can just explode!"}, {"response": 41, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (16:53)", "body": "actually, didn't Iggy say that?"}, {"response": 42, "author": "Xtremis", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (17:44)", "body": "Truth, in my opinion, is merely a psychological manifestation. It is nothing more than what our subconcious thinks we can handle. If there is a \"truth\" out there, (pardon the use of a copyrighted phrase) it can only be classified as a piece of our psyche."}, {"response": 43, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (13:43)", "body": "A statement is true to the extent that it maps something out there some kind of correspondance must exist between a statement and reality"}, {"response": 44, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (12:11)", "body": "some kind of correspondance must exist between a statement and reality Yep, I think it exists in the eyes of the beholder... and anyone else that can be coerced to believe it."}, {"response": 45, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (18:54)", "body": "Well put. And, if my statement is: \"an eclipse of the sun is going to happen at 9:00 a.m.\" and we happen to both see the eclipse would you still think that is i would be \"coercing\" you into believing that state. i mean: that the event of the eclipse itself is enough evidence of truth."}, {"response": 46, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Tue, Dec  2, 1997 (21:33)", "body": "\"All I saw was a dark cloud passing in front of the sun.\" HEY BUDDY... are you trying to coerce me! Har har. We seem to be at that place wherein belief systems have common areas... and not so common areas. We see the same things (though may explain them differently). This is where (common education) comes in and creates common reasons for the same perceptions. Without it, we might all have our different points of view in those areas we now take for granted. In that way, I do believe we create our own realities. If we all had the same point of view... what would be the point. In fact, what is the point in two people having the same viewpoint. No fun there. Just a grab for validation or comfort in numbers?"}, {"response": 47, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (14:13)", "body": "We already have a \"common point of view\" by speaking the same language, English."}, {"response": 48, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (14:14)", "body": "within these \"common\" points of view we are able to communicate enough so as to be able to have differences."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (15:49)", "body": "Yes, a common language creates the platform for agreement or disagreement. And while it does not limit magnitude, it does limit content. But that goes nowhere in my mind?"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (15:59)", "body": "Let me try it a different way; A ficticious society that supports nonconformity of ideas, reaps the benefits of; enjoying 'change' and greater forward motion. My point being.. A group of researchers all pursuing different avenues of thought (without right/wrong endings) is better than not."}, {"response": 51, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:31)", "body": "\"A group of researchers all pursuing different avenues of thought (without right/wrong endings) is better than not. Please say more."}, {"response": 52, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Dec 13, 1997 (11:14)", "body": "A fundamental paradigm of society is; Who has the power. Money... Looks... Intellect... Truth... etc, etc, etc. These things get; Respect, Adoration, Notoriety and Worship and Love. Each of these facets requires the agreement of other/s that a particular person does indeed have these qualities, the more people agree, the more power involved. This overall theme of power can create bias in 'Thinkers, Researches etc. In other words, their thinking must result in conclusions that others will agree with (right/wrong). This can limit the directions that one might pursue. There are of course the radical types who could care less?"}, {"response": 53, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Dec 13, 1997 (11:19)", "body": "When there is always some pursuit of power involved, it might keep you from getting out of a self imposed box.. And instead of having or not having the power, maybe you will just 'be the power'? The Child."}, {"response": 54, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (05:11)", "body": "Truth is a very personal thing. For me it is free-will in thinking as well as in acting, judged only by itself, and not by others. Just that."}, {"response": 55, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (08:49)", "body": "but humans live in societies. what about when a group of us has to decide on what truth is? btw, welcome to the spring!!!!!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (10:23)", "body": "Greetings, SKAT! and are we talking about subjective or objective truth? or truth in generalities, or is specifics?"}, {"response": 57, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (14:17)", "body": "In the old eastern block a professor once claimed that there is only one truth, and that is the communist truth, Ray. He went on to say, 'Who lives in Truth has freedom.' Would you therefore agree that the truth that THAT body of people agreed upon, is truly Truth? Wer, is there a difference? Please specify . . ."}, {"response": 58, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (22:59)", "body": "no, not at all. but i think there is a difference between a true truth and a truth sought after by a particular group of people. the major difference (or one difference anyway) between them is that i do not think it is possible to prove the existance of true truth. the best we can do is say that truth is self-evident (and that is actually ok with me), Plato notwithstanding. proving the existence of a communal truth amongst a group of people is something we do everyday. it's when one groups truth runs up against anothers that we get problems, hence we need ethics."}, {"response": 59, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (23:35)", "body": "objective would be \"true truths\" or \"universal truths\"... subjective would be \"personal truths,\" those based on individual experiences... general truths have many easily accepted exceptions... specific truths have lost that capability due to their specificity..."}, {"response": 60, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (03:06)", "body": "Ray, there you proved my point! Truth IS self-evident, I totally agree - that is exactly what I said. There is no TRUE TRUTH, because TRUE TRUTH is universal (thanks, WER!), and would therefore have to be decided upon by a group of people, perhaps like ourselves; and the Truth is judged by itself, and not by others! Truth is simply Truth. Being truthful with oneself is all that matters. I do agree that a communal Truth exists amongst people - that is because we all basically know what Truth is, and how to practise is. It is not the difficulty and labour in finding the truth that bring lies in favour, but our natural, corrupt love of the lie itself. Wer, is it not obvious that general truths and specific truths involve no labour whatsoever (I mean, trees simply are tall, and houses made of brick - how difficult can THAT be to cope with?! Ha-HA!)? Therefore it mush be personal truths that we are discussing here, or what? Don't you agree that if vain opinions, self-flattery, false evaluations, false imaginings etc. were taken out of our minds, it would leave a number of people poor and shrunken, full of melancholy and indisposition, and altogether unpleasing to themselves? That is why it is so important to be truthful with oneself before being truthful to others. After all, the light of day does not show our triumphs half as grandly, half as daintily as the dim light of a candle."}, {"response": 61, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, May 11, 1998 (15:55)", "body": "*** Being truthful with oneself is all that matters *** i kind of agree with this, and kind of don't. nowadays, this statement is true, i think, because of the fact that we have so many different philosophies around. we live in a time when there appears to be no universal truths, and so each of us adopts some sort of philosophical position to live by, and chances are the philosophical position one adopts is diametrically opposed to someone elses. in a world such as this, there can be no discussion as to what the truth is. the only thing we can do is to identify what philosophical postion someone claims to have taken, then to call them hypocrites if they fail to live up to that philosophical position. Thus, it seems that being truthful with oneself is indeed the only real philosophy of life left today. unfortunately, this leaves name-calling as the only real philosophical \"debates\" we have any more."}, {"response": 62, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (05:57)", "body": "Ray, you've said it! Very well put. That is just how I feel. But I seem to detect a difference - the way you say it, is as if you think it a shame. Right or wrong? I think one can continue the philosophical debate about Truth quite a bit further. I mean, you can argue that this 'modern' Truth is bad, I argue that it is good. But first I have to make sure of your opinion. Enlighten me! I like talking to you."}, {"response": 63, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (11:05)", "body": "i do feel that the state of affairs we have right now is, well, sad i guess. it is difficult for me to get into a moral debate because so much of my own moral ideas are derived from my strong beliefs as a Catholic, and you can only argue that stuff so far. but i do feel that we westerners are in a moral dilemma. if you trace back the history of western thought on morality, it turns out that the \"oughts\" that make up our rules of right and wrong can all be traced back to Aristotle. Aristotles morality was in many ways very straightforward: there were things that you did if you were a good person, and if you didnt do those things, you were bad. I am of course simplifying a great deal, but the point is that Aristotle's ethics were more or less self-evident, and not based on some long series of rationalizations. such a system served well until the enlightenment. at that time, the power of human rationality was glorified, and men started questioning and rationalizing everything, including ethics. Aristotle's ethics made no rational sense, and so new moral ideas began to spring forth. for example, Kant appealed to rationality as the basis of our ethics, while Hume appealed to sentiment. what we're left with is a bunch of ethical camps which all attempt to rationalize the oughts left to us by Aristotle. people take up position around a camp, but cannot engage in rational discourse with other members of other camps due to the fact that there are no commonalities between camps. as a result, modern debates on ethics are characterized by emotivism and name-calling. the only solutions to all of this mess is to go back to Aristotle's ethics, which of course in todays world would look like just another bunch of crap. anyway, that's my 2 cents, and why i think Aristotle be da man when it comes to ethics. these are not my original ideas. most come from the work of a philosopher named Alisdair McIntyre. he has published many books, one of best of which is _Beyond_Virtue_."}, {"response": 64, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (21:43)", "body": "In response to: \"There is no TRUE TRUTH, because TRUE TRUTH is universal (thanks, WER!), and would therefore have to be decided upon by a group of people, perhaps like ourselves\" If somrething is a 'universal truth' must people be the ones to decide on what makes it so? Riette, you speak of trees being tall and that being considered a 'truth' when doesn't it all go back to perspective? We share this universe with many other creatures/beings/entities and perhaps to a bird the tree is indeed NOT tall. Are truths only pertinent to mankind? Could we not be confusing human interperted 'facts' as 'truth' simply because we are an extremely egocentric composition of living matter? And then what is 'fact' to you, may not be 'fact' to me. It seems to me, if we do not allow subjective truth and consider it valid... In essence are we making perspective a form of denial and living our own personal lies?"}, {"response": 65, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (01:27)", "body": "Someone else in another topic brought forth a very similar sort of argument, concerning Relativism. I find it an illogical argument used to obliterate TRUTH. Is truth not indeed also perspective?!?! Of course it is! Perspective is very important, otherwise we would not be able to distinguish truth from falsehood, right from wrong - tall from small! I dare say even elephants and birds and sheep perceive of trees as being tall. (The giraffe I'm not so sure about. Ha-HA!) Anyway, I don't think one can bring animals into the discussion, because there are no philosophiers amongst them to convey to us their point of view. We happen to be the only rational, sense- and nonsense talking creatures on earth, and, egocentric as our truths may be - it is important. I am sure many of my facts are not yours and vice versa. But one of my 'facts' is to live and let live, and so it should not be a problem. I don't quite understand your argument about making perspective a form of denial and living our own personal lies. Only if one is dishonest with oneself will one make perspective a form of denial - and I dare say we know exactly WHEN we are being dishonest with ourselves, and so perspective does not become a form of denial, but a form of self-deceit, quite a conscious thing. I truth in society can only be achieved through subjective truth, truthfulness with oneself. If we don't lie to ourselves, we will not lie to others, and if we do not lie to others, they will trust us."}, {"response": 66, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:02)", "body": "yes, you did miss my point about perspective/denial. I was simply asking whether or not, as the devil's advocate of course, if we claim 'certain truths to be self-evident' are we not claiming those who see things differently are then living a lie by refusing to subscribe to our 'truth' (opinion)?"}, {"response": 67, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (21:28)", "body": "i don't know about \"living a lie,\" but those who see things differently would probably be characterized as immoral, and vice versa."}, {"response": 68, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (01:22)", "body": "NO, NO, NO!!! People who 'live their lies' are people who HURT others by it, who live by an evil truth - and THAT is self-evident. For instance, should we suddenly start tolerating the lives that rapists or murderers lead by saying they are merely living a life by their own unique self-truth?!?! THAT is when perspective becomes a lie. Those who merely live what other's would deem 'immoral' lives will not care, for their truth will be judged by itself, as I have pointed out before - people may question their decisions, their truths, but they will not be hurt by it. That is where the difference lies."}, {"response": 69, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (17:01)", "body": "so now truth has a moral twist... but these morals are evidently 'universal'? seems to me, you've got your own organized religion right here!"}, {"response": 70, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (00:57)", "body": "It has nothing to do with religion. Do truth and morals not belong together like man and wife? Without truth morality would not exist, and without morality there would have been no need for truth. As far as universal morals are concerned: like truth some morals are universal and some not. Our responsibility is not only to ourselves, but to others just as much - but morals and truth begins within oneself. Is that so twisted a thought?"}, {"response": 71, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (00:59)", "body": "It has nothing to do with religion. Do truth and morals not belong together like man and wife? Without truth morality would not exist, and without morality there would have been no need for truth. As far as universal morals are concerned: like truth some morals are universal and some not. Our responsibility is not only to ourselves, but to others just as much - but morals and truth begin within oneself. Is that so twisted a thought?"}, {"response": 72, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (17:31)", "body": "I don't know that they belong together all the time. Morals are lessons, to be moral is to be good and just. Morality implies a vague goodness. I do not believe THE TRUTH always must be good, virtuous, right... I simply believe it must be accurate, honest, factual. Big differences IMHO.."}, {"response": 73, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (01:02)", "body": "No, not really - I don'f feel all THAT much different than you, but you must give me a more concrete example of what you mean when you talk about a 'bad' kind of truth. Is it not the kind of truth that inflicts pain? I think the truth inflicts a great deal of pain anyway, and that is why it is so hard to see it as a virtuous, moral thing. Sometimes it would be a great deal easier to lie, and save other people from hurt. But it would not be accurate, honest or factual, as you put it so well, and therefore it would be a false kind of morality. That is why we value the truth at about, say, the price of a pearl - it only shines in bright daylight - and the lie at that of a diamond which shines beautifully in every kind of light."}, {"response": 74, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (11:05)", "body": "Riette, what if the truth is we are all a bunch of multi-celled organisms putting meaning into an existence which has no higher meaning beyond what we give it. Is that goodness? Moral? No, it has absolutely nothing to do with it. What about hunting let's say. Without killing off animals (because we've already killed off their predators) they would starve to death. So (in a completely random sense, the truth is (it is accurate to say, we need to shoot animals for them to survive) this might be the truth, but is it moral, good? See how people's opinions get all caught up in both issues and truth and morality really don't always go hand in hand?"}, {"response": 75, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (13:29)", "body": "Hmm . . . Yeah, I see what you mean. Difficult subject, istn't it? But I somehow can't think of the human race merely as a bunch of multi-celled organisms; I don't think we would have been 'putting' meaning into our existence, and striving for good (or evil) if we were just that. I do understand what you mean when I read your example though. It is funny that you should have chosen hunting, because it is something I have been confronted with alot in my life, since I grew up on a farm in Africa. My grandfather used to have to hunt certain types of antelope from time to time, not so much for the meat, but for just the reason that you have given, namely that there were not enough predators - lions and leopards - to keep their numbers under control. He hated hunting, and was indeed very bad hunter, but it had to be done. Then I have seen the sort of people who hunt the predators. There is no reason behind it, except that it is their life's dream to shoot a lion, and make a rug from the skin. They have no respect for their prey either. Sick, isn't it. So I have to ask: has hunting not more to do with instinct then? For the second kind of hunter has more of the predator's instinct than the first. And with instinct there exists no morals, that I am sure of. Otherwise there would be no murderers."}, {"response": 76, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (16:45)", "body": "are you saying murder is instinctual?!?!?!"}, {"response": 77, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (00:48)", "body": "Yes. I don't so much believe that killers are merely people with bad childhoods. If that were the case, a hell of a lot more people would have been murderers."}, {"response": 78, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (15:32)", "body": "*boggled mind* hold on, lemme digest that one for a bit."}, {"response": 79, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (00:15)", "body": "ha-ha! Boggled? That's good. Thought you might be disgusted!"}, {"response": 80, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (09:12)", "body": "no just trying to assimilate you idea with the fact that I believe in choice and also in instinct. So... if murder is instinctual, I can certainly work that out. But... I am trying to think of what instinct would possess that and, if we are all part of the asme species, why we don't all share the same drive (like the instinct to procreate (or at least practice!)). But, you see, in the same manner that mankind can choose to ignore the instinct to procreate, are some of us not , in reality, merely ignoring he drive to murder? I don't know. I just cannot see a purpose in it all. Most instinctual behaviors are designed to further the survival of the species. Murder doesn't AND, unless you wanted to make some strange case for murder being population control or an explanation of Darwinian evolution, it just doesn't jive. Riette, please explain more why you think murder is an instinct for some. And whether or not you believe it is a species wide and something that is controllable. *exasperated from having thought too hard this morning*"}, {"response": 81, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (06:51)", "body": "Oh dear, it is very difficult for me to explain why I think murder must have something to do with instinct, and I probably risk making an enemy of you. But I'll try, and I hope it won't come out too twisted. Well, we all get born with instincts, that you will agree with. I think how these instincts will develop depends not only on our surroundings, but also on our personalities. See, I can't believe that you have your personality just because you were brought up in a certain way, or I mine. I was brought up to be very different from what I am now, and yet I am what I am, and you are what you are. It's just there. And it decides what to do with the instincts that are there already. Have you ever watched a small baby, or been with one for a length of time? It's where I started to form this idea. A baby is just this little bundle of instinct, and for the first few weeks after giving birth, the mother is like that too. I never knew how strong instincts could be until I had my babies. I remember exactly how they smelled (and they each had a very distinct smell), waking up just before they started screaming, with the overwhelming urge to feed them. Or having nightmares about someth ng happening to them, dashing to where they were sleeping in their beds, and finding they had kicked their blankets off, and were lying cold and shivering in the corner of the cot. And the physical relief it gave me to take them into bed with me, and hold them very tight. It was really weird, but it got me thinking. I thought about how, in a way I was really not much more than an animal - about how I had never thought of myself as so 'primitive' in a way. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought that perhaps instinct forms a far greater part of us than we think. But we cover them up cleverly with our civilized ways. Yet they're still there. Take an easy example like sex. When you feel the urge you don't think: I am having this feeling, because it plays an important part in nature, because I want to r produce. No, all you can think about is that you want to have sex right here, right now, and bugger the rest (so to speak!) What if it's the same with people who kill or torture others? I've read numerous interviews where they said they did it because they just 'had to', because they had 'the urge'. They didn't think about the rest of the species at that moment, or about the pain they would inflict - just that they had to do it here, right now. So perhaps killing is a kind of instinct that becomes very dangerous when coupled with anger and hatred. I think we all commit murder some time during our lifetime - even if it is nly in our heads. I can think of a particular one that I commited once, and, yes, it did give me a kind of satisfaction, because I was angry, and hated the person. And I don't think it takes all that much for this kind of instinct to just get totally out of hand. It is there in all of us, like in all other animals - but because we do possess faculties higher than that of animals, we must try and overcome the kind of instincts that can inflict pain on others. We must be aware of the savageness of our h man nature in order to strive for kindness and care."}, {"response": 82, "author": "autumn", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (06:51)", "body": "Ooh, I like the way you put that, Riette!"}, {"response": 83, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (00:51)", "body": "Lurking again?! You liked it?!?!?! Stacey's going to kill me for that response!"}, {"response": 84, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (18:45)", "body": "Actually, I really enjoyed the last sentence especially and I agree with it wholeheartedly. I suppose I am still struggling with the nature/nurture side of a murderer. I keep going off on tangents like... gang initiation killings -- not instinctual hate crimes -- not insticntual murder suicide (crime of passion) -- not instinctual serial killer -- hmmmm? rapist/murderer -- pent up anger from earlier abuse or hmmm?? I don't know but I certainly can see you point more clearly. Perhaps there are those humans who are overwhelmed by savage impulses, instinctual impulses, if you will. But then the question is... do the rest of us merely subdue those intincts, have they evolved out, is there a trigger???"}, {"response": 85, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, May 31, 1998 (03:34)", "body": "I am sure . . . or no, one can't ever be SURE of something . . . I think, that the rest of us do merely subdue those instincts, and that they are a long, long way from evolving. That is where environment comes in, I think. If we experience the love and care of others we are able to subdue, almost forget those instincts. Even then there are still situations that occure where you think of someone: 'May the fleas from a thousand camels infest that bitch's armpits.' Sure it's nothing serious, but I think it is a kind of savage anger flaring up. If you live in an environment where these instincts are constantly being provoked and tested, and pushed to the limit, then I think the chances are that at some point instinct might override sense. More killers come from environments just like that than those who don't - in which case the person was evil to start with, and not made so. That is probably another controversial point - whether people are born evil, or made so. Personally I think both."}, {"response": 86, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (20:35)", "body": "I don't think that anybody is born evil. But, people are born contrary, and with the wrong direction, a contrary person becomes evil far easier than someone else. Even a basically good person can be pushed to evil."}, {"response": 87, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:23)", "body": "Do you ever have moments where you fear you might be evil? I sometimes do. It scares me."}, {"response": 88, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (01:43)", "body": "I did, when I was in the army. When the time came to do my taxes, under occupation, I put hired killer. They refused to accept it that way. made me change it. I put down priest, the second time and that worked. Under my training, I was expected to kill whoever I was told to, Even our own people. That is what got me to wondering...."}, {"response": 89, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (07:32)", "body": "I can't imagine you killing anybody. What horrible training was this?"}, {"response": 90, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:06)", "body": "I was trained in physical security as an MP and also trained as a sniper. I never had to kill in the army, but the mentality was there. That is why I went into EMS for several years. sort of a mental cleaning process. Correct that to I never had to kill a human in the army. I did kill a dog."}, {"response": 91, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "If you're a trained sniper, then we'll defenitely have to go to a fun fair as well. Then we could do the target shooting thing, and I'll have loads of cuddly toys to bring home for my girls! You killed a dog? You mean you reversed into it?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:25)", "body": "I should be very upset if you did that when we go to Mexico in your truck!"}, {"response": 93, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (01:33)", "body": "I blew up the truck the dog was riding in. I was on guard duty and the driver of the truck was tring to crash through the gate into a small arms repair facility, I opened fire and lit up the truck. The man dove out and took off running. The dog blew up with the truck."}, {"response": 94, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "The dog's name was Ralph. The truck's name was Harold. Ralph didn't want to be with Harold that day, and all day he knew he was going to be. It wasn't fate. Because fate wasn't there that day. It was outta town, visiting its soulmate who was wandering around the Mayan pyramids, looking for trash....white trash....and she or he or it kept bumping into all these enfeebled tourists."}, {"response": 95, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (01:40)", "body": "ha-ha!! Just shows you - never hang out with trucks unless you like 'em!"}, {"response": 96, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (18:54)", "body": "Poor Ralph..."}, {"response": 97, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (20:42)", "body": "I've got to agree with that sentiment. Stupid handler got 5 years in Leavenworth philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 6, "subject": "Being Wired, Being Human", "response_count": 62, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Nov 16, 1997 (12:41)", "body": "Oops! The URL above should have been: http://internet.ggu.edu/~aazevedo/beingwired"}, {"response": 2, "author": "flowerchild", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (23:17)", "body": "don't understand enough to response propery"}, {"response": 3, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "Americ asked; Is it possible to become a \"cyberwizard\" living a fully meaningful life? I think there is a broader underlying question here. \"Is it possible for anyone to live a solitary life/vocation. 'Fully meaningful' is often ascertained by wacko philosophers like ourselves that are so broad in their view of life that it is difficult for them to justify a narrower point of view. I say,\" Let the cyberwizards determine what is and isn't meaningful in their own respective life styles.\" Diversity is the spice of life."}, {"response": 4, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (12:08)", "body": "I do believe that these new mediums of communication between us are opening up new channels of humanness for us. Look at us! Here, together. Are we not connecting our souls in a new way?"}, {"response": 5, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (19:23)", "body": "I think everyone's souls have always been fully connected. This is the fun game of our egos perceiving that connection, as we let go of old ideas and embrace new ones. And of course, when we won't let go... ouch oowie blank blank!!!"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Xtremis", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (21:35)", "body": "I believe that each person's soul is merely what they make of it, whether that be a spiritual entity, or only your personality as you see it..."}, {"response": 7, "author": "Xtremis", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (21:37)", "body": "I find it difficult to logically percieve that a person actually has a \"fate\" or perhaps a destiny, but every event in a person's life merely depends on the choices that that person decides to make."}, {"response": 9, "author": "CotC", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (02:54)", "body": "Yes."}, {"response": 10, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (04:55)", "body": "Life is like a box a chocolates, you'll never know what ya get next... ---Forest Gump"}, {"response": 11, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (11:34)", "body": "I sometimes say, \"Life is like the game of backgrammon.\" You throw the dice. Sometimes the numbers look good, but you can't use them. Sometimes the numbers look bad, but you just make the best of it. You can't control what comes up with each throw of the dice, but you can make the best of the situation to move you toward your goal. Ah....but in backgrammon the goal is clear -- not always so with life."}, {"response": 12, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (13:24)", "body": "Cassie said; I believe that each person's soul is merely what they make of it, whether that be a spiritual entity, or only your personality as you see it... That's the nice thing about our realities, each and everyone of us gets to have it anyway they want it. Thank you Cassie"}, {"response": 13, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (18:28)", "body": "\"I have wrestled with reality for 35 years...and I'm happy to say I've finally won out over it.\" (Elwood P. Dowd)"}, {"response": 14, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (21:18)", "body": "\"I have wrestled with reality for 35 years...and I'm happy to say I've finally won out over it.\" I'm all ears! Did you commit suicide, or switch to a reality that doesn't look like one."}, {"response": 15, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (22:14)", "body": "This is going to be good."}, {"response": 16, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (13:48)", "body": "it is good to feel some human among the wired"}, {"response": 17, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (11:46)", "body": "\"Reality\" is pondered to death, and sometimes the pontifications seem just a bit manipulative, like maybe a BS attempt to impose a certain \"reality\" on others; and sometimes seem a little obvious... (not sure, but maybe that's what Elwood was trying to say)..."}, {"response": 18, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (18:19)", "body": "reality is only right here, right now. Not over there, yesterday or what could concievably happen... and, as I'm sure you know, no one can ever be in your place at your time -- everyone has there own reality."}, {"response": 19, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (18:49)", "body": "and then there was Ross Perot..."}, {"response": 20, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (19:38)", "body": "LOL!!!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (00:28)", "body": "ain't no right drug for that...(except for maybe the one Roxy Music proscribed)"}, {"response": 24, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (00:46)", "body": "you gotta believe in it, wer..."}, {"response": 26, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (01:02)", "body": "yeah, could be... believe in dualism, though (don't you?)... other side of despair is joy (and l'amour)... can't have (and certainly cannot value) one without the other... cold comfort, yeah... but if you don't believe in a thing, I don't know that you can achieve it..."}, {"response": 28, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (01:23)", "body": "nope, there aren't any guarantees... the middle is cool, with some people... and dealing with extremes can be scary as hell... just seems a waste not to be open to possibility... regarding love...achieving is sufficiency (over- not possible, I think)... and just because you haven't achieved it in the manner you believe you should doesn't mean you won't... most people feel like that, probably, one way or another..."}, {"response": 30, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (01:38)", "body": "because your asking, wer... you obviously feel that desire, or you'd just accept less... man, I'm sorry... I take it you're referring to a particular female-type person? (not women in general)"}, {"response": 32, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (02:12)", "body": "most women aren't like that...you've just gotta believe that... and time is the only thing that can relieve that kind of pain... and until you find the thing you need (and deserve), you just take solace from faith (illogical as it sounds, but love is the most illogical thing going), and from beauty, wherever you can find it (and it's everywhere, even in what you're feeling now)... (Yeats) \"I know what wages beauty gives how hard a life her servant lives, yet I praise the winters gone. There's not a fool can call me friend- and I may dine at journey's end with Landor, and with Donne...\" really believe in the verity of this..."}, {"response": 35, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (02:44)", "body": "it depends on what your goals are... manipulating women is actually pretty easy (know I'll get hammered for that, but it's true)... it's a lot easier, cleaner to operate than be operated on... but you also can't gain much valuable from living like that... laying out genuine feeling for someone is frightening, and makes them vulnerable to be trod upon, but it also opens you up to the possibility of something greater... And it's not selfish to expect to be loved in return in the manner in which you love...it's just human... certainly shouldn't take the attitude that \"they didn't love me, and they were right.\" sort of licks you before you even start... shouldn't be afraid to \"push your points\", or make your feelings known, either...if you don't, who will? If they don't respond the way you would like, you have to be secure in your knowledge of who you are, and move on... and when it happens, as it should, you'll know the difference..."}, {"response": 37, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (20:55)", "body": "there shouldn't- isn't- always someone who manipulates, at least not in the sense i believe you mean... if there is, the relationship is probably doomed, i'm sure you'll agree... compromise shouldn't just be possible, it should be integral, if you're gonna have a chance... as far as their points \"being valid\"- if you gave it your best intentioned, best shot, what do you have to feel bad about? sounds as if it may reside within the realm of \"their problem\", not your's..."}, {"response": 38, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (17:54)", "body": "There are some problems you cannot fix. WER, not to interrupt nick and your intimate (for lack of a better word) conversation, but you cannot change nor understand anyone else. You can attempt a view from their perspective or attempt to share yours. Ultimately you can only really affect yourself, others have to want to be affected (positively and negatively). I wish you weren't in turmoil."}, {"response": 40, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (10:12)", "body": "Then stop dosing yourself!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (18:15)", "body": "Try override!"}, {"response": 44, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (09:39)", "body": "Ah... now we might have a problem. I am Queen of Denial when it comes to an impass. I tend to ignore the hardcore feelings and \"get on with my life.\" Not always the best way but after a bit o distance, I can come full circle and \"deal.\""}, {"response": 45, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:49)", "body": "\"...and the beat goes.... on... ...pounding... rythum to the... brain........\" and we go on, for the \"beauty\" of human life is that even in the suffering there is some kind of overcoming"}, {"response": 46, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:57)", "body": "yeah, I believe that is so... (and have to admit, sonny and cher are appropriate models re: suffering)"}, {"response": 47, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:58)", "body": "suffering? cher is all plastic, can't feel anything anymore........"}, {"response": 48, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (00:02)", "body": "sheesh... referring to the suffering she has bestowed upon us, the record buying public... (not to mention her contribution to the proliferation of sundry social diseases)"}, {"response": 49, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (00:03)", "body": "gross!"}, {"response": 50, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (00:07)", "body": "*yawn* later, sweetie ;)"}, {"response": 51, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (00:49)", "body": "sorry 'bout that... (lost in cyber-space again)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:36)", "body": "An annoucement: I am currently building a special area on the web called \"BeingWired, BeingHuman\". It has a front door and a conference system call WELL Engaged, which is the same the The WELL currently uses. You are all invited to go visit there and remark on the topics being developed. It needs folks to see the area. So please go visit and create accounts for yourself at: http://www.goldwarp.com/beingwired Thanks."}, {"response": 54, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (20:27)", "body": "I look forward to seeing you there. It will develop slowly. Just posted a new subject today. Going to attempt my first interview of someone there. Perhaps, I will get Terry to be interviewed there."}, {"response": 56, "author": "americ", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (11:13)", "body": "Oh...you mean you can't log into the links provided for you at www.goldwarp.com/beingwired ? Remember that the userid is case sensative in that system. Give yourself a new userid if you have too."}, {"response": 57, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (01:10)", "body": "I am going to change the subject. I got a thought about this topic. Being wired being human makes me think about instead being weird being human. Life is big. We humans are weird by nature. We are different and unique which makes us weird.Hmmmmmmmmmm..........Huuhhhhhh...."}, {"response": 58, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (03:01)", "body": "emphatically agree (though some of us are weirder than others)..."}, {"response": 60, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (13:24)", "body": "That is funny and quite true. But who is to judge who is weirder than the next?"}, {"response": 61, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (14:11)", "body": "mr. blackwell?"}, {"response": 62, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (21:34)", "body": "LOL!!!!!!!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (21:37)", "body": "well I KNOW I'm weird and find it a plus to be unique! (psst, who's mr. blackwell?) surely not the guy I work with......"}, {"response": 64, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (21:44)", "body": "You know, that idiot nobody ever heard of who publishes a \"worst-dressed\" list every year in Hollywood. Like he'd win any fashion awards!"}, {"response": 65, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (21:46)", "body": "LOL--what is it with those people anyway, they're making boocoo bucks and can't dress themselves to save their lives!!"}, {"response": 66, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (16:58)", "body": "Yeshe, again we are caught by the question, \"in who's eyes?\" Who determines weird? Or truth? Or human? Is it possible we will only be brought back to the idea that everything is only relative to our personal reality? i hope so."}, {"response": 67, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:15)", "body": "what else can it derive from? it is all we possess (for good or ill)... \"...out of a misty dream our path emerges for awhile, then closes, within a dream...\""}, {"response": 68, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:16)", "body": "uh, that was ernest dowson, by the way..."}, {"response": 69, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:53)", "body": "I believe the people who judge and look down upon a person are only fighting their own demons within. A person who is at peace with their soul does not judge a person on their apperance but rather sees the unique existence of that human being."}, {"response": 70, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Jan 20, 1998 (17:29)", "body": "well said.....people who put others down are trying to bring themselves up, only they don't realize how low it makes them."}, {"response": 71, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Wed, Jan 21, 1998 (12:02)", "body": "Correct!!!!"}, {"response": 72, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (14:35)", "body": "QUITE. I must say I like being human, and all the vulnerability that goes with it. I have been really hurt a few times in my life, not THAT often, but a few times. And though I did not think of it then as I do now that I've got the distance of years and space between myself and the experiences, I can almost appreciate it. I'm the sort of person who spoils very easily, and I am naturally quite self-destructive. (I used to jump from the roof of my parents' house every morning, 'cos I didn't like school, and wanted to break a leg to miss out for a day or two. But NEVER, not once did it work!) Anyway, if only nice things were to happen to me all the time, I KNOW I'd forget to remain grateful for them. The virtue of adversity is fortitude, and that of prosperity is temperance - which makes that of adversity the more heroic in the moral sense. Is it nog better to behold a lightsome picture painted upon a solemn ground than to behold a solemn picture painted on a lightsome ground?"}, {"response": 73, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (17:04)", "body": "I think neither is 'better' than the other, all a matter of point of view/mood/ desire and of course, the freedom of choice."}, {"response": 74, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (01:32)", "body": "I suppose. Yes, probably."}, {"response": 75, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Aug 22, 1998 (00:06)", "body": "I have a site called \"BeingWired,BeingHuman\" at http://www.goldwarp.com/beingwired the main icon takes you to a conference space with some discussion going on. I also put in a link to The Spring at the front door of the home page. That way, I can remind myself to come back here!"}, {"response": 76, "author": "segue", "date": "Fri, Nov 26, 1999 (08:55)", "body": "I realize that the answer is probably Harold and Ralph, but I heard a lecture on Hans Gadamer last week and I cannot find the old Nazi written up in \"for Beginners\" \"For Idiots\" or \"For Complete Dummies.\" But I got the impression that he is saying that most of what we are is a little story we tell ourselves about what Ralph and Harold did to us as a child, and a good deal of what happens to us is also the name game. Thus bring back Plato and texts because they are good for jabbing purposes, sort of irri ants that poke at us and keep us from getting pompous. The game plays the players. Oh, eruditeAustinite, please clap your hands and make Tink live! I really like reading all these books and getting pompous. It shuts people in Waco up immediately when they ask what I want with my beer and I say \"hermeneutics.\" Truth and Method, anybody?"}, {"response": 77, "author": "segue", "date": "Tue, Nov 30, 1999 (19:27)", "body": "Oops! Need rewiring even before Y2K it seems. I meant to post this on What is Truth Topic 5. Shucks, well let's just say I intended it simulcratic or something. Sorry."}, {"response": 78, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Nov 30, 1999 (19:33)", "body": "I read it and then read it with the post before it and had no idea what you wanted, but am standing by for anything I can help with - including further confusion on your part and mine *smile* philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 7, "subject": "Love...Is it THAT important?...real?...ultimate?...etc...", "response_count": 292, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "julia", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (04:08)", "body": "And don't forget - movies!!!"}, {"response": 2, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (11:53)", "body": "Romantic love is oft talked about but what about that unconditional love that we are supposed to receive from family and partners. Sometimes the idea is more tragic than truth."}, {"response": 3, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (13:01)", "body": "I find that \"ideals\" about love are tragic and dangerous. We can pit ourselves against an ideal that we cannot live up to, and then find ourselves being \"down on ourselves\" -- actually, practicing self-hate which makes us, in tern, less able to give love. For it may be true, that we cannot love yourselves, we may not be able to love anyone else."}, {"response": 4, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (13:21)", "body": "I agree. Love is born of acceptance and often we are unable to accept ourselves and find accepting others impossible."}, {"response": 5, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Nov 18, 1997 (14:38)", "body": "Love is made easy by acceptance, but where it comes from don't think we can tell (and hope we never know). The issue of \"acceptance\" can become a complicated one, too- very often people accept less (in the way of romantic love) than they are capable of achieving. Suppose it depends on the way one is constituted..."}, {"response": 6, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (11:52)", "body": "Good point. However, even when someone is achieving less than their potential r (oops) to accept them is to love them or, I suppose, vice versa."}, {"response": 7, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (14:09)", "body": "Yes, I believe that's true. And I would never demean the value of any kind of love. And would tend to agree, too, that the concept of \"idealistic love\" which endures in the popular imagination can be emotionally destructive...Do believe in, though (and can attest to) the existence of high spiritual/intellectual romantic love- and know it, too, to be a most rare state of being (the \"old, high way\" of it Yeats spoke of)..."}, {"response": 8, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (14:13)", "body": "the old high way or old highway? Semantics can be so much fun! and as to the rest... I concur. Another question for you... should we ever EXPECT love? And please don't give me the \"only if you love yourself\", I got that much. But from parents, friends, spouses -- should we expect it or just be grateful when it exists?"}, {"response": 9, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (14:51)", "body": "My first instinct was to say that expecting a thing devalues it, innately- but then realized I don't believe that at all (must be some errant 80's est-like voice rattling around in my head)...Yeah, assuming one is a person capable of giving love, one should expect to receive it- don't you think?"}, {"response": 10, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Nov 19, 1997 (14:54)", "body": "And it is, of course, the \"old, high way of love...\" (it's from \"Adams Curse\", one of his most beautiful poems)"}, {"response": 11, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (11:09)", "body": "\"Expecting\" sounds so selfish but yes, I agree, occassionally one should expect love in some reciprocal sense."}, {"response": 12, "author": "terry", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (14:45)", "body": "Do you give love unconditionally?"}, {"response": 14, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Nov 20, 1997 (18:32)", "body": "Interfacing head and heart is over-rated...Just be glad that you have a functioning heart, and are able to experience love, even it's sadness, because beauty dwells even there, if you'll just see it... And didn't mean to sound as if I ascribed to the Ayn Rand school of human relations- just meant that very often- in every context of love, in fact- I've seen situations where people subsist in relationships that are terribly one-sided...Seems to be awfully depleting, and ultimately destructive, to participate in such a relationship, and would think one would be entitled to expect at least some form, some level, of reciprocation...(?)"}, {"response": 15, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (11:24)", "body": "WER, you have pointed out a mojor flaw in the utopian love theory. If you give love unconditionally, you should not EXPECT a return. But, if you are involved in a relationship where unconditional love was a premis, then you should get that return (whilst not expecting it). It is difficult when happiness is contingent upon the way someone else treats you. It shouldn't be, but it is. I agree with nick here. Just be grateful that you have the ability to gove and receive love. It is hard to give when you haven't received in awhile, so just do what you can. Loving someone else should always bring some happiness regardless of whether or not the love is returned."}, {"response": 16, "author": "terry", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (11:28)", "body": "As in the act of loving being it's own reward?"}, {"response": 18, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (11:53)", "body": "Yes, Paul. Well, if it causes pain (and I'm assuming not physical) then the recipient is unfortunately unable to receive. No one but the receipient can change that. Loving someone harder who doesn't want/know how to be loved just won't work."}, {"response": 19, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Nov 21, 1997 (15:45)", "body": "AKA, \"Pepe LePew syndrome\"..."}, {"response": 21, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 22, 1997 (01:00)", "body": "Carefully. In a way that preserves a friendship if possible."}, {"response": 22, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Nov 22, 1997 (02:39)", "body": "Does that really happen often? Former lovers maintaining friendships, I mean? Never happened for me- not from acrimony, necessarily (sometimes from acrimony, though)- more from a sense of self-protection, I think (derived, perhaps, from the practical implications of rubbing elbows with overly-informed, semi-hostile, potentially dangerous people)... Think the most important aspect of walking away is the road one takes to do it; The high road requires honesty, self-possession, and at least the pretense of sensitivity...Doesn't guarantee your safe-passage, but does permit you to retain your self-respect..."}, {"response": 24, "author": "terry", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (10:56)", "body": "With both I would think, I get along pretty well with most of my x's."}, {"response": 25, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (11:08)", "body": "With both. And the honesty should include whether or not a friendship is desireable. Frequently I found myself looking for a friendship with an ex that I had no desire nor energy to maintain. I felt maybe guilty or sorry or that if we had a tether to each other, the change wouldn't be so difficult. I was usually wrong. The emotional energy needed was more than I could take. Look at the decision carefully, with compassion and love in your heart but be honest with yourself and another. And once you make a decision, do what is right for yourself."}, {"response": 26, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "That kind of honesty usually taxes ALL of my emotional energy...it's unfortunate that doing the right thing must be so depleting..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (12:01)", "body": "I suppose the bright side is that you are frontloading the emotional energy drain. Because if you were to continue with someone who wasn't meeting your needs and possibly taking more out of you than anything else, you'd be on slow emotional drain for a long time."}, {"response": 28, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (12:28)", "body": "Yes, it costs less paying cash...on the installment plan, it's the interest that kills you..."}, {"response": 29, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (19:04)", "body": "with love the law of conversation of energy does not apply. sometimes a little goes a long way; sometimes a lot does nothing at all."}, {"response": 30, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (12:12)", "body": "very good point."}, {"response": 31, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (17:01)", "body": "Americ, If we accept that we are to love everything unconditionally, do we love our hate? If we then love our hate and our love... does the duality disappear, and what replaces it. Hint: This could be a trick question."}, {"response": 32, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Nov 26, 1997 (11:10)", "body": "confusion!!! Welcome Steven! Unconditional love, IMHO is a misnomer in most contexts. We spoke early on of receiving unconditional love versus getting it. If you give unconditional love and expect something back, it really is no longer unconditional. And concerning hate... hate is a passion, love is a passion. Is it not conceivable to believe that somehow they are borne of similar emotions?"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Wed, Nov 26, 1997 (11:59)", "body": "IMHO, unconditional love has no conditions at all. Not even giving it or receiving it. It just is. It comes from within and emanates outward. If you have ever felt it , you know that it can't be given to anything. It is unconditional and it refuses to be controlled for the ego's benefit. As to love and passion in the traditional sense, I think they are different intensities of the same thing. They get confused because they are generally triggered (and judged) in different ways."}, {"response": 34, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (01:46)", "body": "But...really...what is love? Is love just this feeling between lovers? Why?...I hear rumors that Love is transcendant; that it holds the universe together; that it is the beginning and end; that it gives meaning to human life. (i wonder about \"meaning\"...perhaps...it is time to open a new topic on meaning... truth, love, meaning -- philosophy is rich."}, {"response": 35, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (02:05)", "body": "Perhaps it should suffice to say that love is justification...(the only justification)..."}, {"response": 37, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (18:41)", "body": "I believe the meaning of love is in the eye of each beholder. It is different for everyone . If love had the same meaning for everyone, where would the diversity of life be? I would guess that philosophy might narrow considerably. For if we did not each see things differently... there might be nothing to get philosophical about. Perhaps Love is simply the fuel that we all create our different realities/perspectives with. When we get close to it... it feels good."}, {"response": 38, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (23:13)", "body": "Steven said: \"When we get close to it... it feels good.\" But sometimes when we get close things get very complex and they just \"fall apart\". I am not sure that love is either postive or negative ."}, {"response": 39, "author": "flowerchild", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (23:55)", "body": "i think love is always very complex and part of being in love is getting close how are you going to know if it is really love , if you don't get involved and find all of the positive , as well as the NEGATIVE??????????"}, {"response": 41, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (02:42)", "body": "From my experience, wer, I think if I feel compelled to question what it is, I've pretty much answered the question for myself, implicitly (but my vision would be considered quixotic, by many...guess it is a \"personal truth\" kind of thing...)..."}, {"response": 42, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (11:53)", "body": "Wer said; \"Maybe we destroy the possibilities by labelling...\" I think everybodies label is different, but I would certainly agree that if someones label is confining, then their possibilities are confined without trauma (positive or negative), to bust it up."}, {"response": 43, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (13:12)", "body": "Perhaps, love, is unbounded, or unbounding. Take this \"being in love\". The best thing about it is that it rips off all our normal boundaries. We, for a moment, experience the world in mystic union. We get a glimpse of total enlightenment, perhaps...."}, {"response": 44, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (20:17)", "body": "We get a glimpse of total enlightenment, perhaps.... Perhaps we get a glimpse of what it would be like fulltime...if we loved everything as much as we love that new relationship. Back and Forth, Back and Forth. Limits no limits, back and forth. We'll get it sooner or later. You know, just let go.... aaahhhhh, before you die."}, {"response": 45, "author": "ritaberry", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (12:16)", "body": "Perhaps love,as well as its discovery and desire for it, is a seed which exists in all of us. That seeds purpose, to emerge into questions and experiences that make us grow from the shell of who we \"think\" we are, into the greater vision of \"all that is\"."}, {"response": 46, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (12:37)", "body": "I think that sometimes love is very painful because love makes us grow beyond ourselves like a worm during into a butterfly or a snake shedding its skin love makes us drop the shell of our ego not is not always easy with great love can turn into ecstaty (sp?)"}, {"response": 47, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (06:23)", "body": "Has it ever struck you that love is the only rule without exeptions in life? I mean, it is ALWAYS rewarded, either with assent or with an inward, secret contempt."}, {"response": 48, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (09:51)", "body": "death and love seem to be the only 2 rules without exceptions, and they are both intimately linked, imo."}, {"response": 49, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (10:28)", "body": "so is change...... welcome riette!"}, {"response": 50, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (11:24)", "body": "hmmm...never considered contempt a reward... maybe I should re-contemplate my life..."}, {"response": 51, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (15:21)", "body": "Contempt IS a kind of reward, Wer. For if the person you love loves YOU not, he does you a favour (perverse as it may seem on the outside) by making it known, and sparing you future heartache. Is contempt not kinder than a Judas' kiss? It is good to be here!"}, {"response": 52, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (22:44)", "body": "Ahhh Riette, some of us believe ignorance is bliss! And a reward unto itself! (Welcome again!)"}, {"response": 53, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (01:55)", "body": "How can ignorance be bliss? In what way? I'm quite ignorant about some things, and it kills me! Just the very idea that someone else might know something I don't. Do you think it a form of vanity on my part?"}, {"response": 54, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (02:33)", "body": "Sorry, submitted too soon. I would never want to be ignorant of my lover's feeling for me, never! Sure it will be bliss, but sooner or later one will find out if the person does not love us. Will it not hurt so much more, if you have had all that time to grow accustomed, akin to him? No, I'm all for a swift, painful stroke to the heart at the early stages - I can recover from that, but from a long ongoing love affair where I am the desperate one? I don't know, but I think it should be unbearable."}, {"response": 55, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (18:05)", "body": "just a figure of speech that some of us prefer to default to occassionally!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (02:34)", "body": "HA-HA! Caught you!"}, {"response": 57, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (02:34)", "body": "No, actually - I think you caught ME! Damn."}, {"response": 58, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (18:01)", "body": "*laugh*"}, {"response": 59, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (00:24)", "body": "The way you behave sexually, is an expression of your inner personality. It is not a thing apart. It is a powerful force because it is blended inextricably with emotion, with what we call the love-impulse. It has the greatest power for good in our lives when we understand it. It has the greatest power for inflicting suffering if we abuse the physical or neglect the emotional aspect. --Frank S. Caprio, M.D."}, {"response": 60, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (02:19)", "body": "Well said, Frank! It is so true though. I find it a shame that one does not hear about the pain that love can inflict when one is young. All you see in the years before reaching adulthood, oh, from a YOUNG age is Hollywood films, where the pain is portrayed almost as pleasure, and all you read and hear talk of love as the ultimate happiness. No-one ever tells you of how hellish love can be, how hurtful. Then you meet the 'right' person, thinking that your life will be sheer bliss from now on . . . . My God! When I think back about the first year or two of my relationship with my husband, I shudder, and think that I would never want to go through it again. If something were to seperate us now, I wonder if I'd have the guts to start a serious love affair again. I don't know. When one loves and be loved, you suddenly have so much power, and so much power over YOU. It takes so much time to learn how to use this power without abusing it, both ways, and during that time you feel like you've been run over by a rain or something."}, {"response": 61, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (02:20)", "body": "Train, that is."}, {"response": 62, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (02:24)", "body": "from Kierkegaard: But the true lover never falls away from \"love\"; therefor for him there can never come a breach; for love abides. Still in a relationship between two, can one prevent the breach if the other breaks it? It must indeed seem that one of the two is sufficient to break the relationship, and if it is broken, then there is a breach. In a certain sense this is indeed true, but if the lover still does not fall away from \"love,\" he can prevent the breach, he can effect the miraculous; for if he abides, the breach can never really be brought about. Through abiding (and in this abiding the lover is in a covenant with the eternal) he retains superiority over the past, so he transforms what in the past and through it, is a breach, into a possible future relationship. If viewed in connection with the past, the breach becomes with every day and with every year clearer and clearer; but the lover who abides, belongs, through abiding, to the future, to the eternal, and from the viewpoint of the future the breach is not a breach; on the contrary, it is a possibility. But to that the forces of eternity belong; and therefore the lover who abides, must abide in \"love,\" otherwise the past, nevertheless, gradually acquires power, and then gradually the breach becomes evident. Oh, and to this, belong the powers of eternity, in the decisive moment, immediately to transform the past into the future! Yet it has this power of abiding. (which, of course, is different from what I usually see in such situations, but it does point out that being told by the one you love that they love you not, sometimes just doesn't really make a difference...)"}, {"response": 63, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (14:00)", "body": "So you and Kiergegaard are saying that it is alright to, if you love someone, and that person does not love you, cling to that person like a pain in the backside? That's not love, that's selfish. Love is to love a person enough to give him his freedom if that is what he desires most."}, {"response": 64, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (23:04)", "body": "I never realized how much Kierkegaard and Marcel Proust had in common. Thank you for sharing, wer. What about the evolving nature of love; in a marriage for instance, do you love the spouse as they are, or for the sake of the man/woman they were?"}, {"response": 65, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (01:57)", "body": "I think it will depend on how the nature of that specific love evolves. In some cases you will love the person more than before, and change with them, grow together and closer together. And in others you will become like strangers, and end up feeling resentment, if the person undergoes changes that degrade all the things you fell in love with in the first place."}, {"response": 66, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (18:33)", "body": "any hints on how to speed up that positive evolution... sometimes I feel like I've lost my best friend..."}, {"response": 67, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (02:19)", "body": "Mr. B being a pain? No, I have no idea. I think there's alot of ups and downs within this love evolution. We experience them too, but don't you also feel on the whole that you have both changed in some ways, and for the better? I mean, at first when we were together, these ups and down were almost like flying up and falling down from the Everest, making me feel as if I could never climb the mountain again. Now it is more of a rolling landscape, and therefore I think it must be good. Sometimes we are best friends, and sometimes we get annoyed with one another, but we never lose each other complete anymore. It feels positive. But to be honest, Stacey, I don't know if I'd ever have the guts into a relationship of this kind again if something should seperate us. It is just so hard to reach a point where both partners are satisfied and contented. I mean, we have reached it now (I think!), and I am very happy in my marriage, but, oh, even three years ago it was very hard. In heaven one day, and in hell the next. I don't ever want to go through that again - being miserable alone is better than being miserable. To me anyway."}, {"response": 68, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (02:21)", "body": "Miserable because of someone else, that should read. Sorry, didn't sleep last night."}, {"response": 69, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (17:47)", "body": "thanks Riette. somehow it really helps to hear that the evolution is still possible even after three years. Yes, we've grown (a lot) but I still hate the ridiculous ups and downs. Seemingly meaningless fights that are so catastrophic!"}, {"response": 70, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (02:08)", "body": "Oh, I know just what you mean. I don't mind the fighting so much, it is what comes afterwards that really makes one unhappy. That empty feeling, and the way men tend to grow so cold, and hold a grudge for weeks on end. But I don't let Mr. C get away with that anymore, because it would be unfair on our kids to just be angry with each other the whole time. Now I just fight him past the point of anger. I mean, I know our marriage will probably not break up over it, and so I just take it so far that the original source of difference pales into oblivion, and the arguing becomes so ridiculous that he has to laugh. It works more often than not - if you can get to the point of laughing within the confrontation, it is usually alot easier afterwards. We used to not talk to each other for up to four weeks on end. Now we don't stop talking at all, and the slight aloofness lasts only for as long as we both can live without making love. And we are both much happier on the whole, I think."}, {"response": 71, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (08:37)", "body": "Just playing a game here with words. Don't know what it's gonna do. Don't know how it'll play. Let's say love is unconditional. And I don't know what that's like or what that really means, etc. But let's say that a relationship that is conditional is one where what's going on in the interactions, or exchanged behaviors, is laden with motives, impure thoughts, unfinished business, expectations, determinations, emotional reactions that are over-emotional, fear, compulsive controlling dispositions and demeanors, etc. So let's say that I want to uncondition all these conditions in order to find true love. So I say to myself, okay the mind games are over --- not that they will be --- but it's just my attempt to move in a new direction. So I realize that the only way to uncondition conditions is to first understand the conditions. Impartial self-observation in the very midst of the worst of the worst conditions, as they kick in and push my buttons: that's the key to learning how to love. I like how Jodie Foster's Silence of the Lambs character says to Hannibal Lector something like: \"You're not so good at turning your brilliant powers of perception on yourself, are you?\" Hardly anyone is, and hardly any love lives in the world. Other stuff is called love. It's not. Conditioning is so subtle, so difficult to clearly see, feel one's way into, get to really know and understand. It makes us feel way uncomfortable to look at, so we don't. We push it outa sight, into our subconscious. And then we vent, and/or we work different forms of appeasing tactful kindfulness or longing or hooded happy-to-see-you pronenesses into our ways of being with each other. Watered-down love ain't real, it's merely symbiotic. Listening for truth with spontaneous interest and deep silence, that kind of creative senstivity --- that's what is real. Love emerges. It emerges out of that. But then: words...is all this is....a'nutter game o' words. What words do you have now?"}, {"response": 72, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (11:28)", "body": "Who? Me? Right, here goes. I think what you talk about is one hundred percent inevitable in ANY relationship, no matter how hard both partners listen for the truth, or how much they simply care - oh, even if it is a long, long friendship that takes a romantic turn. The reason for it is that loving makes us vulnerable and sensitive in a way that friendship can't. When you fall in love with somebody you have suddenly something precious in your hand, and you know that this gift can be lost, you FEAR the losing of it. And that is when the weakest parts of ourselves become exposed, and therefore evident in both lovers, and the pedestals they put each other on start to shake, because when you love somebody . . . well, one just cannot think so absurdly well of oneself as the lover thinks of the person loved, do you know what I mean? So you end up having to love not only the person, but accept their weaknesses, their faults, their fears, their memories - the difficult things. And this is the point where many a relationship shatters, I think. I am still not sure how ANY rela- tionship gets past that point, but it takes time and perserverance and patience and pain and pleasure and acceptance. Only when you have been through all that, when Love has shown her vehement claws, stung and given both partners a great many blows, can one start listening for the truth, and develop sensitivity towards one another. What emerges is not so much love, I think (for that is there from the moment you realize that another person can hurt you), but TOGETHERNESS."}, {"response": 73, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (13:26)", "body": "Riette, the \"you\" was meant as the general 'you', as far as whether anyone might have further words on the matter. I goofed there and should've worded it better. I liked your words very much.....and I started to think of how I accept a person's faults. But that made me think of social conditioning, because of how we so unconsciously (like osmosis) accept the tons of subtle, complicated conditioning that we do. I thought of how my conditioning is and was accepted by me, and then I thought of how any love I then feel becomes conditional, instead of unconditional, as a result. I really liked how you connected up fear and hurt. You're right, love does make me real vulnerable. It's so strange how the vulnerability turns into defensive self-protection: because of the fear and the hurt and the weirdness of seeing the other's faults and limitations and patterns and blindnesses and insensitivities. That's the point where I adjust too much, and look (and listen) too little. I can sorta see what it is I do: I accept how I don't understand what's going on with the other person, and I sorta get used to that. Over time, it changes into managing to take certain opportunities to see deeper into the troubling aspects of what bothers me about her/him, and what's so problematic there. I come away noticing that the hurt did hurt so much because it threw me off my course: the course that my my will and pride are so used to coasting on, like a momentum of some sort that gets interrupted. It seems that what I noticed was that the other person's stuff itself didn't bother me at all. It was just that their stuff somehow effectively threw me off my familiar ways of being me. When I took special care to listen in to their bothersomeness, it actually became a mirror, and I was seeing myself through them. I am so much the same way as they are. Some appreciable amounts of tension fell off in those moments of noticing. My \"love\" (or feeling) was at least slightly less conditional, and more interested in wanting to be with her/him and with the flavor of the slippage into personable human passageways I'd been all along wanting to venture into and hadn't really realized it. There came that interconnected inadvertant volition. It was moving in and through it all. As you said, Riette: togetherness. Pretty alive, too. It's so funny that the things the other person was doing that seemed to make me impatient and upset (because I wanted something I wasn't getting, but which seemed so important at the time) could become the very things that I can actually so easily want to have --- because my experience of them suddenly shifted from petty agitation to a personal learning form of absorbed fascination. That's freeing. It unconditions."}, {"response": 74, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (15:23)", "body": "Wow, you said that wonderfully, Gross. It is also the power one suddenly has over another person, and the power he has over you that frightens me about love. Though it did not last long I had alot of fun when I was still on my own; I thought I wanted to remain single forever. Then I woke up next to this oldish man one morning, whom I had known but for a day, and could not bear the thought of him going. I wasn't sure why or how it happened, but I just knew I did not want it to be a one night business. I still remember thinking that I wanted it to last for a month, no more, no less! But instead of telling him so, I asked him to order breakfast! But I still often wonder what it was that made me feel that way. We did not even have a single thing in common back then. Why do you think people fall in love? I mean, one does not just wake up one morning and think: good day for falling in love. So, where does it come from? Any ideas?"}, {"response": 75, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (16:36)", "body": "does it 'come from'? I thought it evolved. A creation between two people that is given direction and meaning by both as it evolves into this 'togetherness.'"}, {"response": 76, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (20:38)", "body": "I've always just found it (and then found out later it wasn't), so maybe I shouldn't answer this one afterall..."}, {"response": 77, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (22:08)", "body": "I'm gonna guess it (love) comes from the deeper instincts that feel the urge to try themselves out on this person. Like I instinctively saw that this person I met 2 years ago had real possibilities for me. To instinctively see: what is that? It's noticing that something is already going on on its own, and then feeling that desire to want to give more attention to it. Then it becomes: wanting to give more of myself to it. And what is that something that's already going on? Well, it's like opening the door and stepping out into a real fine day: but it's more than feeling good --- it's sensing that things are clicking, and you could say to people (when they ask), \"I don't know why, but things are concurring right and left with my sense of well-being, and penetrating into my sense of wonder and opening it up to almost humorous levels way cool flow, to where it's runnin' smooth like a river.\" It's fun when that dawns on me that it's in motion, it's happening....something is reciprocating to a suddenly unburied deep-deep longing for sheer happiness. I feel secure. And frisky and resilient and ready. I can let go like I'm really willing. It's okay. It's time to see what happens in this situation when all signals are right, or almost all, or the vast majority of 'em. This is weird, too: what if she (Fay) reminded me of Dad in some way, like in a way where feelings of recaptured rapture that I had when I was 3 years old, somehow, ridiculous as this might sound, stirred from their stir....and reawakened in such a pleasingly complete way. Something or some things may recombinantly tender their way in from an unfathomable slumber and aerate the now with their own refreshed fragrant manifestation. Riette, your way of saying what you say, it's nice. It's real nice. Cuz it's direct and specific. I get the picture, and the picture is, well, it's like a movie or something. You sure do lack nothing in the way you talk, or I mean, write. Rich, really rich....people come to life. Life says: \"Well, uh, thanks for comin'\""}, {"response": 78, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (01:43)", "body": "Was that flattery or a compliment, Gross? But continue, please . . . I haven't come just yet . . . ha-ha! Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. Anyway, here's my return: For a Texas man you've got an awfully nice accent. But back to the subject. I find it so intriguing, this 'opening of the door', as you put it. I wonder what it is that makes people reach out in such a way to certain others. Even now I still experience it - though, and I hasten to add, I just wonder at it, nothing more. I find it on the whole easy to make friends with most of the people I meet - men and women. But sometimes I still experience this sense of chemistry with the opposite sex. Many of them do nothing for me - I find it impossible to talk to them about things other than the weather or last week's hockey results, etc. - and it doesn't bother me or anything, it's still fun; I can still be friends with them. But once in a while I look a man in the eye, and think: yes, I like this guy. I'd like to talk to him. And when I try it out, it ALWAYS works. Like a cool drop of water on my best developed faculties. Often one does not even have alot in common with that person. It is just that slight feeling of tension, the kind of tension that creates friction, and from which a deep and pleasing warmth will ensue. One does not plan or anticipate it, it is just there. Oh, and then I wonder. What is it that make certain people attractive to certain others? What gives us our 'taste' in people?"}, {"response": 79, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (10:17)", "body": "that I believe is the real question. Leplep, when you get those initial feelings, that giddiness, that drive... you are not saying that is love, right? I truly do believe love is cultivated as you not only realize that the other has faults but you come to accept them and ultimately come to love the other because of and not in spite of this combination of strengths and weaknesses. But the first response, the first click, the seemingly sixth sense about another and the desire to want to know them better... alas, that remains an enigma (but I suspect it has something to do with pheremones (or maybe beer goggles))."}, {"response": 80, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (22:22)", "body": "I wonder whether I'm saying anything (bold font on \"anything\"). It's fun to return with complete doubts to what I said, sorta scared that it made no sense at all, that it thoroughly contradicts what I have believed up to when I said it and contradicts what I went on believing right after I said it. Like maybe I did a little anachronistic dingdong right there in the middle of reality, came to my senses, and forgot I'd temporarily lost them. Hey, there's that word again: unconditional. Okay, here's what I'm fondling now: that unconditional love and attraction (or taste) are contradictory. Look out, Stacey, cuz I'm even cringing at the possibility of cultivated love being contradictory to unconditional love. This is very challenging. Is this quicksand I've just stepped into. Oh well, lotta people would just as soon see me go, anyway, probably. Hold on, now, where am I......oh, okay---the box at the race track, I just walked by it, but I think I'm goin' back and place my bets on: cultivated understanding of another (and the deepening of love that evolves) is a result of unconditional love; it's not love itself, per se. Sorta like how happiness is a result, not something that can be cultivated. This person at the shoe store at the mall said, \"Jim, wanna go watch TV with me?\" I'd never seen her before in my life, but I just said, \"Not really, it's just that I think unconditional love is there from the very beginning and all along the way.....perhaps goosing (not really) the pheremones or the initial feelings, and perhaps fanning out into all kinds of different adventures with one other person or many, and through it all doing non-stop quiet listening to the qualities of the other's personality, where the listening is of no separation, no distance, not of time....pure and complete and direct listening, feeling, seeing..... it is a matter of relating on that level of clarity that results in understanding, and out of that understanding comes love, tenderness, affection---but the listening, the understanding, the unconditional love are all going on from the birth of truth in a person's life, and that's way before this or that attraction occurs. Conditional love is not love; it can be very nice and seem like love and show great progress over what had been going on months or years before. Unconditional love is incredibly rare. Don't you think so?\" She very grimly took off one of her shoes, gave it to me, and just walked off, going kinda up and down with each step. I noticed, too, that she'd stashed a flock of pheremones in my nose. I was about to run after her, but this thought of Wolf came to my mind, and I thought why don't I just wait till now to check the couch."}, {"response": 81, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (23:13)", "body": "Jim (?) shall we allconsider the possibly that after feelings have evolved to a certain level, the emotion/sensation/global positioning can be called love. And then, that love, is unconditional. In short, once love is achieved (through evolution) it is unconditional? (btw, i don't believe in unconditional love on too many levels. People typically expect/desire reciprocation to continue loving and that would be a condition)"}, {"response": 82, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Sat, May 23, 1998 (06:07)", "body": "I know what you mean. I walked over to this person the other day looked up close and into her eyes and said \"But if you expect me to reciprocate your love, your love is now turned into control.\" She said, \"How can you say that? That's very irresponsible of you.\" I turned around and looked down.... decided not to jump after all ---turned back around to them (she had turned into 2 girls and a guy) and said, \"But wouldn't the responsible thing be to not expect anything of me and to just give of yourself?\" Each of them said one word at a time, in perfect rotational sequence, \"That makes no sense at all. Give what of myself?\" I gave them my newspaper in exchange for an orphaned gorilla that made strangely moving sounds from a moving train, then I said, and i quote, \"Give attention to that twinge of vexation you feel at my not reciprocating.\" They said, after first trying to stare me down, \"Yeah, sure, that's mighty big of you. Why should I do that?\" The orphan ape stopped the train, climbed up the mountain cliff, joined us in conversation, then paused, as I said, \"Because you move your attention from me to you. You move from control to understanding. It's an act of real love. If I ignore you, let me. Give love a chance. If you're interested in me and in why I ignored you, go ahead and ask me why I did it. Ask me with genuine curiosity. Ask me with love and with heart-felt regard.\" The little orphan gorilla turned off the vacuum cleaner and immediately began to imitate a blind man walking into a bank, while saying to us, \"I think what Jim's trying to say, however much like a ninny he might sound, is that instead of expectations, love has flow, it has wonder, it has time, time is just not a factor, it has warmth and beauty; instead of need, love has the atypical, it has originality, it has change and the natural movement of grace and the quickened vitalized lifeblood action of new possibilities, of aloneness and of relating exquisitely and of giving birth to the immeasurable.\" They said, \"What could you even POSSIBLY be talking about this time? Could we have the check please? The reality check!\" As easily as not, I just said, \"Well, let's evolve. Let's evolve right now. Let's do it without any expectations or forcefulness or pressure of any kind. Start with what's nearest. If you're afraid of losing him/her, start with that. Evolve by finding your way into this fear of losing. Really find out about it by very quietly within being completely frank with yourself and with the questioning that could be going on. When our attention is on that, rather than on the expecting of the other person to reciprocate, you will find you're in the center of something much more real: you would be evolving, and you would be doing it now rather than postponing it any more.\""}, {"response": 83, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sun, May 24, 1998 (23:15)", "body": "sometimes you (the general you) can indeed expedite the evolution of love. because the growth is between two people, and involves the regulation of inhibitions, of risk taking, of emotional 'streaking' one can prep himself, manipulate himself to accomodate another (and yes, it does involve some manipulation!) reciprocation is frequently belated and rarely steady and consistent. and I do believe that the process is more unconscious than premeditated. and I am happy to 'wake up' and realize I am in the center of reality, in the midst of something beautiful albeit imperfect, I am in the process of evolving."}, {"response": 84, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Mon, May 25, 1998 (04:09)", "body": "Stacey, that was really well said... since it was, I got your drift much better and easier than I might've otherwise I don't know how to put this, but it seems extremely ironic to me that I'm even standing on the same planet as you when it comes to talking about this kinda stuff. You're so good at reciprocating, yourself; you already show you've grown to an unusual level of actionability. And here I am....never even been in a relationship with anyone. Where do I get off even opening my mouth, I'm wondering with irony. I listen to you eagerly with a desire to see how it's done, cuz you don't hesitate to enjoin me with the cool knowledge you've come to. And, besides learning what I can on my own, I'm really startin' to think that this might be the best way to obtain the most helpful pointers: just counter what you say, and you'll release some more 'and-don't-forget-these, either' to reflect on and try to assimilate into my life. This next part is where it gets difficult. Something's eating away at me, trying to tell me I should know better than to say this to you. Like it's too idealistic....just ridiculous, in fact. What Nick said just a little bit ago, I'm ready for the same: I am ready to be beheaded....it would help if you could make it a clean cut with real snap to it... I'm looking down, dismally, thinkin': oh man, why do i have to get myself into these predicaments, anyway... If you could ease into your most forbearing perspective and spare me my life, dear miss, I would try to repay you with a billion dollars and your own country. And now for the disaster as it unfolds: why does reciprocating involve those (prepping, manipulating, regulating) to accommodate another's or one's own inhibitions, risk-takings, emotional streakings? BTW, it was kinda exhilarating to see those words (inhibitions, emotional streakings, prepping, risk-taking)---you're probing the real toughies, you're making it all that much more explicit---so i felt more and more in the center of reality...it was heartening...I mean great choice of words there...why not just go see Bulworth, the movie?.... It's like this, I know that what you say is absolutely right. We gotta work with what we got, do the best we can, and since we're not perfect that means let's do our imperfections on and with each other as well as we might. The more we work on it, the better we get at it, the more we'll grow and evolve together. I'm asking: why is it absolutely right or absolutely necessary? In other words, instead of prepping the one I love to be less inhibited with me (or vice versa is more like it), why not do these two other things instead: 1) ask myself, way in there on the inside, why it hurts or is irksome to be with her/him if they're inhibited, and 2) enter into their dilemma with an understanding heart and explore with them towards growth. Another thingamajig i can't stop wondering about is: if I'm accommodating, expecting, regulating, manipulating, prepping, am I learning, as in growing, evolving, or am i merely reworking the status quo into a temporary development that feels more pleasant for us?....go see Bulworth. Because, I'm thinking, if the risk-takings, inhibitions, and emotional streakings aren't deeply gone into, there's no chance for genuine growth (evolution) to take place---wanna see Bulworth?---the current state of affairs would only be remolded into a nice looking sculpture so that it isn't one that, before, neither person liked the feel of (or looks of). I guess what I'm trying to say is: love-action is the only evolution-action of true emotional growth....but there's always Bulworth....and reciprocating accommodation is like government-action (it doesn't lead to understanding; it leads to better programs, in a best case scenario, that is). Bulworth Bulworth I don't have any possessions worth passing on, so please proceed with the execution....the Lep's reasoning has leprosy written all over it....it's pathetic, I know (but Bulworth isn't). Bye, Stace, hope yer havin' a good day today (at least up till now). I wish I could find a way to be less insufferable. I would if i could. BTW, doesn't anyone else wanna cream me. Y'all can readily see how perfect a target I make. Give it yer best, ok? I mean Bulworth would. True, that's true, have ta admit."}, {"response": 85, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (03:00)", "body": "Leplep, I'm not into antiquated methods of consequence... I'd rather go round and round! (grappling with the fatigue...) when I mentioned prepping, emotional streaking, et al... I prefer to work on these skills... Ideally (and maybe idealistically) I want a relationship with that degree of closeness and turnabout is fair play. If I hope for someone to evolve with me, I figure I must be willing to evolve. (not making much sense... I'm not usually up quite so late... perhaps I'll post more coherently tomorrow) (did you enjoy Bullworth?)"}, {"response": 86, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (05:08)", "body": "Take your time, Stacey. Sleep will re-invigorate you. You're doing fine. I'm seeing what you're saying about your preferences. Everytime you say something on this stuff, it invisibly moves me where i've never been. Do you find love easy to talk about? I don't either. Oh, you do? Don't? I'm, is this....am i....do you think we're reaching too much of an impasse, you and I, in this topic? I sorta worry about that and then get this sinking feeling like i failed you, or failed myself. I should've way sooner gotten to the heart of what concerns me the most: how to listen to myself and another from the deepest parts of where the hearing and feeling can actualize change. I should've illustrated with examples of what I mean by that. I didn't. And I didn't clearly ask you (and ask myself) how there might be a difference between evolving and not evolving. I still don't know how to ask that question in a way that asks exactly what I want to ask. I'm feeling despondent cuz i know i can't go on any further tonight....same reason...fatigue. Hope your day tomorrow is wonderfully infectious and goes smooth but with pure open-eyed chance delight. You're great. For real. Yeah."}, {"response": 87, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (05:11)", "body": ""}, {"response": 88, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (05:21)", "body": "Response 87 must mean only one thing---I clicked the submit button for 86, but then again for 87 (3 minutes later?)---and the box was empty for 87, like my brain box is now....spacin' like Goofy on Pluto, the planet (not the dog). My bed is like screamin' at me. It's really up in arms. I better go over to it and crawl in....or crawl to it and roll up in."}, {"response": 89, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 26, 1998 (10:10)", "body": "(i hope you finally fell into the much needed sleep!) No, Leplep, I don't think we are at an impasse at all. Specifically because 'love' can never (oops! watch that word), okay rarely (?) be the same to one as it is to another. Hmmm... lemme rephrase that. If lover were the same to all of us, then we'd not ask the question 'why are THEY together,' we'd simply smile (or grimace) and say, 'oh, they are in love.' Could we consider hate (in this topic) and avoid blasphemy?? You could believe there are different degrees of hate or simply different kinds of hate. Or, as I believe, there are different ways to hate. Can there not be than different ways to love. Some people may have to work harder at one aspect than another. Opening themselves Reciprocating Patience Acceptance Self-knowledge Ultimately I stand by the idea that love evolves but can evolve into many different colors (?) Was it the Greek people who believe in the five (?) different kinds of love? a familial love a romantic love an ultimate love ( i don't know if this has anything to do with my point at the moment but the thought just raced across my brain) Blah, blah, blah... you asked me the scariest and deepest question I have been asked in a long time... how to listen to yourself. I find this very difficult to do. Usually I involve myself in some sort of intense physical activty so that my body can be busy while my mind temporarily loses touch with reality. Often times I must be driven to that point by some sort of catastrophe. Huge arguement, death, failure and fear. Once pointed for the darkside of my brain, I am completely comfortable delving in, looking around, asking questions. I typically come out with a surreal calm. A knowing smile. But turning my head in that direction... nope. I usually must be forced there. I get pissed off because I knew if I spent more time visiting ' the dark side' (as kind of a maintainence thing) I wouldn't have to take some of the steep emotional falls I do but... I don't know how you make yourself listen. I wish I did."}, {"response": 90, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (01:27)", "body": "Hate is conflict. Love is union. Hate has different intensities of conflict, but not different kinds, unless I'm just mincing words. I'm getting dogmatic, aren't I? It's just me yapping away. Nothing more. I know it. There's only one kind of love. In essence, love is freedom. People in my family are just people, not family. A person I would feel romantic towards is just a person, not a lover. Agreed, this sounds bizarre to be talking like this. Emotions stirring up at all? One time I took a walk on the dark side....it was when me and this person I used to work for were in his cube, sitting, talking....and he was someone who I couldn't stand so much that I was transferred to another part of the organization because we would get on each other's nerves that bad....but like I say, there we were, sitting in his cube, and I tried to be nice to him, and asked about how things were going at home and stuff like that, and he started telling me, and his bearing changed, he softened, he was affected by a slight tenderness that came over him and met me in his eyes....in that instant I saw the strangest thing....that it's possible to feel the deepest love for the very one I despised....it was just there....I couldn't deny it....it didn't feel any different at all from romantic love or family love or ultimate love....they all came together....and I was listening to that....don't you listen to the 'other' feelings that come to you when you're writing in your journal, Stacey?....I don't write in a journal, but I just wondered....that deep love for George (my supervisor at the time) was fairly fleeting, real fleeting I should say, and the feelings of despising him returned to roost inside me. I'm wanting to start asking about prepping another person or oneself. Does the prepping involve control? Does it involve getting the other person to conform to our expectations? My first impulse is to say that that feels like anti-love and anti-evolution, anti-emotional growth. Then again, I sure don't trust my first impulse to be always right or true, of course. I know I'm distorting, just don't know the extent of it. Clue me in, y'all. Anyone. Doesn't have to be Stacey. The mind can be most cunning. It can fool itself into believing it is working toward something good, kind, truthful, free, when it is really operating out of fear, greed, the desire for power, pent up demands. So, instead of trying to get me and the other person to change what we're doing or feeling, I just ask if they feel what I'm feeling [like that there's tension going on between us or that I felt burned by some telling remark they made to me about me].....and if they don't (or do) feel it but are willing to venture into the matter with me, together, then through the kind of listening that it takes to really hear what we're really feeling, we can come upon the obstructing deterrent that's preventing us from moving together in a true rhythm of mutuality or love. Let's say it's a problem like drinking (if it's a problem) or a problem like inhibition. These are very difficult to listen into with another. I know I feel the pressure of wanting to hear them say what feels like will be a gratifying turn of heart or inner direction in them or in me. But that's really listening through the screen of my desire. That's not listening. Truth is something else. Truth-listening is completely objective, yet it has compassion. It's both, equally. Doing anything else is following a cooperative process and structure that has an authority about it that people believe brings about improvements in their lives. It does that. But it doesn't touch, at all, the comprehension and release of an attachment or dependence. There's all the difference in the world between 1)love and 2) getting along real swell (considering what, say, 2 people have been through) and having great moments of exuberance, bonding, and steady reliability. Conflict, fear, and pride are the big three, probably. They're there, very much so. They are facts. Reality. How is evolution to happen? Only by entering into and working all the way through those three. Partial love is not love. Another word should be used....something like: servicing each other as reasonably well and symbioticly as we can, with enough reciprocation & chemistry to renew the interest and attraction from day to day. The danger is being satisfied with that because it feels like progress, when actually it is, at the root of it, a duping mechanism of the mind whose purpose is to effectively act as a safeguard against dealing with the unbearable hurt and difficulty that we come into direct contact with when we face the truth about ourselves regarding our fears, conflicts, pride. To walk into the dark side, and invite the devil (speaking extremely metaphorically there) to join us, is to face the truth about ourselves by listening in (from the part of ourselves that is the deepest and most compassionate) to our fears, conflicts, pride---it's the one thing we "}, {"response": 91, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:13)", "body": "Hi, Jim! Yeah, I'm back - Wer helped me, and not a day too soon. I almost feel shy, but getting over it already. I've just been reading your and Stacey's conversation, and it shattered my whole world! So much for all that insight. None of the things you talk about ever happened to me. Not like that, andI don't understand anything anymore. How can one not just love a person? Is there anything wrong with that?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:13)", "body": "Inherently no. I suppose I love my grandmother because she's my grandmother (even though I would never have befriended her on her own merits) but that's not the level of love I want to have for the rest of my life. I want the connection, I want the growth, I want the fear and trepidation that comes along with 'exposing' myself, I want to be totally emotionally nude and feel safe with that other person. But alas... it doesn't just 'happen' for me. Perhaps that's a shortcoming in my own human evolution (screwy gene pool, or such). Perhaps I just like being an extrememist, I enjoy overanalyzing, I enjoy making something grand out of something ordinary..."}, {"response": 93, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:13)", "body": "Riette, close your eyes....ok, are they closed?....okayyyyyy Mmmmm.......there, did that kiss say love? Now I have to reluctantly return to your question. Bummer. Can we just like put it off for a while? Oh, okay. Well, images. That's how. That's how one cannot just love a person. What might the dear old loonie be rarin' to yap on about now, eh? Love lives in freedom, it lives in the present. Images are combinations of thoughts and ideas about the other person. Thoughts and ideas form over time, and they act in the present. They act in the present, yet they are themselves mental/emotional elements formed in the past (the last few days, weeks, months, years, decades). They are fixed and static, but they juxtapose themselves in subtle combinations with the kind of blinding speed the psyche is capable of. How do these images work? Like a'this: The other person pleases you, rejects you, expects favors, gets impatioent with you, thinks your lazy or self-centered, feels they accept you more than you accept them, has to prompt you, whines a lot, gets upset when you don't remember something relatively minor but is suddenly so important to them, they talk to you about their hopes in a way that sounds wishy washy to you, they get frustrated with how you get frustrated with them, they're ready to fight you at the push of their buttons, their enthusiasm tails off more quickly now when you do things or are about to do things, they're full of excuses, their love looks mostly sentimental or carnal, etc. etc. etc......just zillions of things like that. They all leave their mark. Your emotions report it to your memory. Images form. And there's usually one overall image, as well, that you have of the person. They are what you relate to the person through. Positive images as well as negative. They crowd out any chance for love. The most positive images tend to feel like love. Those are beautiful images or relatively beautiful. But they are images that we acquisitively cling to. Because they are the familiar, the known. They produce a sense of security, belonging, bonding. That's their purpose. That's why we gladly go on doing our images of each other. But see, they're just images. How does understanding dissolve all these images, to free the psyche of this energy-draining burden, giving love a chance to be? Like a'this: Self-observation. It's not like we have far to look. The image-making happens rapidly in an ongoing action throughout the day. It's the past trying to claim the present, and trying to claim to be love. It takes a special sensitivity to apprehend the underlying logic behind an image or conclusion. It'll never happen if we approach our subconscious with a moralizing attitude. I suddenly need sleep. Haven't been eating enough at all lately, either. I is fading quite fast right about now. Gotta crash. Zonk."}, {"response": 94, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:13)", "body": "well put. sleep soundly. (in vivid colors!)"}, {"response": 95, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (02:15)", "body": "I suppose he's right. Didn't understand a word of it, but it sounded intelligent, so I'll have to say he's right, right? I hate that. If I had to analize every little thing to bits about the kind of love I'm in, I would never have the time to be in love at all! I'd just walk around with a grudge all the time. But I don't - I just love. When a problem arises, I sort it out, I get angry, I tell him how I feel, and listen to how he feels, and then I just carry on loving. But if I had to think everytime I argued with him . . . the bastard, I've been doing all the compromising, or he's being this and I'm being that, I'd just walk out, I think. I mean, I loved him from the very beginning, because he made me feel like his equal, because he was willing to compromise, and because he let me speak my mind, and because the the things he had to say enriched me - why would we now suddenly change? If a problem arises, it is because we are two different people with different opinions, not because either of us have bad intentions, or trying to take advantage. I never think like that, never. Because I love him as he is; I don't ever want to change the things about him that sometimes infuriate me so much, because I need them."}, {"response": 96, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (06:44)", "body": "More and more I come to feel that the meaning of life (love, truth, beauty, freedom) has to do with emotions. Our emotional reactions. That's where our humanity is, our human nature, or so it's thought. I can need a person and not love them. I can treat them as my equal and not love them. I can enrich them with the things I say, and respect them, and want them to speak their mind, and compromise with them, do all that and still not love them. Treating a person as my equal and love are two different things. The one is the result of the other. But love does not equal treating a person as my equal...they're not equal. To say that isn't to analyze it, it's just to see it. Seeing does not equal analyzing. Self-observation, if it becomes analyzing, then becomes not self-observation. Opinions, let's look at opinions, and see what we can see....without analyzing. Does love begin with opinions? Does it begin with conclusions? What causes the hate, the anger, the infuriated reactions? I'm only asking. I'm not saying for me or anyone else to don't do it. We're inquiring together, exploring this difficult problem in life. Why does it happen that we have these emotional reactions? What if I hear your opinion, as you speak your mind, and I listen with understanding, and I don't get upset at all, even though I feel your opinion is wrong. I see it for what it is. I say, \"That makes sense coming from him. On his terms, it seems right.\" That's what love can do. That's love. Love doesn't need. When need enters the picture, love vanishes from the picture. Love is generous and cooperative, but not out of need. Love doesn't need to have its way. Love doesn't need to be right. Love doesn't need to hate and be infuriated. And we're talking about love, true? We're not talking about tainted love when we're talking about love, yes? The real work of understanding what love is, and loving, has to do with understanding how these two things act on each other: emotion and thought. Thought being opinions, conclusions, images, judgments. Emotion being some form of non-physical pain or pleasure. Do you realize that I don't know what I'm talking about? This is very difficult for me to go into. It's real work. It's serious work. Learning as I go. I don't understand how to understand. I'm not right. These are full-blown assumptions. I'm only doing like y'all...participating...participating in dialogue. Do I sound off-putting? Can you see certain things I could do differently in the way I talk that would make it easier to just relate to, like if I were to change the form some way, while leaving the content/substance as is? Psychological thought is dead, it's static, it's an image, it's memory. That's what opinions are. It's what analysis builds on. Mathematical (1+1=2) or technological thought is something else. I'm not talking about that. Psychological thought is different from perception, seeing, listening. Emotion is different from feeling. Emotion is the memory of hurt, wishes, pleasure, pain. Feeling is warmth, compassion, love, sensitivity. Without analyzing, perception can see psychological thought while that thought moves and acts in all its daylong subtlety. When perception observes this psychological thought combine with emotion, the understanding that results is able to dissolve the images, the judgmental reactions. Love is born. Conflict (and fear, hurt self-pride, willfulness) are understood and eliminated. The elimination and what is eliminated, that's all fact, it's not a fabrication of the mind. Perception deals with actuality (fact). Analysis deals with adjusting or arranging emotional thought contingencies. Analysis supposes and estimates what compromise will prevent things from getting out of hand so things don't go bad. Perception doesn't care if things go bad, because it's already looking for what's gone bad or is going bad, with the desire to understand it fully. Love is perception and is able to relate. Tainted love (attraction, typical relationships) are one person's images of pleasure and pain reacting to another person's images of pleasure and pain. That's not relating. But it's all we got. Gotta be where we are. We can start there and observe the images with silent, deep listening. Perceptive awareness could result in understanding the observed. Sometime, eventually, love will be lurking and ready to post. So was all this way too didactic sounding? Pretentious sounding? Did it sound like an analytic mind theorizing theory, going 'rounnd & 'round?"}, {"response": 97, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (08:27)", "body": "Yes, yes, and yes. Ha-Ha! No, but I see what you're getting it. But all the things you speak sort of negatively about seem to be the things that make me happy!! Need exists in my relationship, there is a great deal of emotion, there is conflict too, there are all of those things that supposedly have nothing to do with loving. Then why do I love so very much? And why do I feel so very loved? Do I love like a fool? Was it foolish of me to just love him even though I hardly knew him for a day, even though I DID NOT know him at ll? And then there is something else. All we've bee talking about are the difficulties and labour involved in love. But those things make up such a small part of love to me. Yes, it is work at times, and it can be hurtful. Only very occasionally though. But it is also wonderful. The way he kisses me when he comes home, the way he teases me, the way he speaks this name I so detest and makes it sound like he truly loves it, the way he talks to me, the things he says, the way he looks at me and sees me so ifferently from how I see myself, the way he smiles at me at times - how can I not need that? If those things were taken away from me, and if I were no longer allowed to love him just as much in return, then I would still continue to live. I would live and breathe and work and eat and sleep. But I think I would lose the joy which is just always there when I wake up with on a morning, and the energy that keeps me awake at night, and the feeling of being human and truly alive. Yes, I need him. I need him, because alot of my enchantment and zeal for life have something to do with him, and he is t e one who discovered the talents I never thought I had. Is it wrong of me? Should I start telling myself that it is wrong of me to need the person who makes me feel needed, should I love less devotedly because of the danger that I might lose him at some point (he is a great, great deal older than me, and that day WILL probably come)? Tell me how I must cope with the idea, Jim, because it frightens and depresses me. I was only eighteen when I met him, and I knew then, and know still, and have been told for six years now that I probably chose the wrong perso to love and that ultimately it will cause me a great deal of pain, but I have thought about it very very often, tried to do it down with Reason as mere childish fancy long before agreeing to make it permanent. But I could not help myself. I cannot help but love this person more than my mind prescribes. And I cannot bear the thought of losing him."}, {"response": 98, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (17:44)", "body": "Riette, can I say, you are beautiful? Your words are very touching. I really feel around you. You make that happen for probably anyone. You've got that about you. It's really really nice. How to cope with pain, that's a doozie alright. The pain has to do with losing what you want. Losing happiness, losing what you need. Doesn't that sound a little like clinging and dependence? I'm not asking you, I'm asking me. Because no one does that more than me. What if I was Riette (and some say I am) and I was married to your husband. What if I loved him very very very much. But what if I didn't need him. What if my not needing him gave me the chance to love him much much much more than if I needed him. What if, when his time came, and he stopped living, and I felt no loss at all. Because I wasn't thinking about me and my needs, because I didn't have any. So I just saw his parting as natural, as part of life, and felt glad I could've been a part of his life. What if he would have wanted me to experience his death like that. I hope, truly, this isn't making you cry or feel sad. I'm saying this to bolster the furthering of your growth and learning. I'm getting more out of it than you are, though, aren't I? You feel this is nuts what I'm saying....? It's not like I can do any of this myself. We know better. Sure, I'm a joke. I hope at least I don't sound so moralizing this time around. Sorry if I do. Riette, you're so fine. Even if you reject me bitterly. I had it coming, I reckon."}, {"response": 99, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (18:58)", "body": "Yes, I think it is NUTS, not just nuts. What is so wrong with needing the person you love? And saying that not needing someone makes losing them easy is one of the cruelest things I have ever been told. We all NEED to love and BE loved - it doesn't make us weak or clingy or dependant pathetic creatures it makes you human, dammit! Don't talk about love and need like they're two different things altogether. They're not. They are like blood and veins; they can't be seperated without your taking to bleeding inwardly. If one goes through life thinking it is WRONG or WEAK to need someone, then you cannot possibly ever love anyone, or allow anyone to love you, and then I sure as hell don't want to be friends with you. Because I need my friends, and if they despise me for it, then it hurts. And I'd rather be hurt so badly that I have to start all over again than never love and need."}, {"response": 100, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Fri, May 29, 1998 (04:42)", "body": "Doesn't using the word 'wrong' create in your mind a super-charged moral atmosphere? Just the word itself seems to do that for you, it looks like to me. I'm looking at the language in your post. It looks attack-oriented in places. That's bewildering to take in from here, on the receiving end. I feel misunderstood. To me, it feels like it sabotages the conversation by implying you would prefer that if I want to be honest about this stuff, to not be honest around you with it. Is that a fair attribution I'm making of your message (part of it)? That feels very demanding. It feels hurtful and manipulative, abrasive. All that venom you use while building a case against what you've interpreted as something I said....whew. If I say that I am full of needs and dependencies, wouldn't that pretty much prevent me from despising you for doing the same? Instead of 'wrong' or 'weak', we could use the word 'imperfect'. It's less inflammatory, yet still gets at the right meaning. We're not perfect, but we can look at our imperfections and go a long ways toward self-transformation, simply by talking about, recognizing, and understanding what those imperfections are and how they work. We can all do that together, even if we sharply disagree. And we can even do it with cool, calm, collected and friendly dispositions toward each other. We don't even have to sacrifice our sense of self, our unique individualities in the process. Let me take an example of a need. I need affection from the one I love. He's away. Out of town. I'm home with the kids. I feel a desire for him and his affection. But since he's not here, my desire cannot be fulfilled. It's beyond my control. It just occurs to me that maybe I need his affection because I don't give myself love. Maybe I don't love myself very well. Maybe the only kind of love I give myself is a self-centered kind of ego-stroking of my pride, instead of real love. Then it occurs to me that when I didn't receive real love as a child, that I suppressed the inner hurt. But because the hurt was suppressed instead of experienced, it created a need. A need for what? A need for love. Since the need was created out of suppressed hurt, though, it became demanding instead of healthy. Could it be that a demanding need is a false need? And an undemanding need is a real need. Like the real need for real love. I start to notice this kinda thing going on in me, because I want to find out by listening with a quiet mind. With a deep quiet kind of listening I may uncover the suppressed hurt. I may overcome my resistance to exposing false needs. If false needs are demanding, and real needs aren't, I start to wonder whether my need for affection is demanding or undemanding. I wonder if an undemanding need is one where I accept naturally, and inwardly, that he's not here and there's no possibility of affection from him. Maybe I start to accept that when his affection is there, I can receive it wholeheartedly, spontaneously, and beautifully, because it's become an undemanding, real need, instead of a demanding (therefore false) need. I soon also realize that if his affection isn't real love, but is only false love, then I am only indulging in pleasure, not real love. It's a huge act of responsibility to genuinely perceive that real love is undemanding. What does that mean exactly? What are the implications? Yes, I agree, we all need real love. It's a need. A real need. It looks to me like people rigorously resist exposing themselves to the falseness in false needs.... Meaning, of course, that they say and think that their false needs are real needs, that their false love is real love. I don't say to myself to try and despise myself (or anyone else) as hard as I can for indulging in the demands of a mass of demanding false needs. I say let's talk about it without getting so upset that we lose our effectiveness as conversationalists/friends/mutual explorers of issues that are significant enough to us to want to come here to this topic. If all you know how to do is respond to this post in a hurtful kinda way, it's okay. I don't despise that response. I understand how these words in these posts can really rock you. These things are very important to you, and I see that and like it. It's good. I think I guess I'm only this guy named Jim. That's me. That's all I am. I'm just like him, the same as you, or she or them, whatever they might do. We're people. People are people, everywhere. People got more in common than we might like to think. We got fears, needs, boundaries, controlling tendencies, sorrow, pleasures, habits, limits, jealousies, thoughts, our noise, motives, opinions, feelings, loneliness, energy, grief, attachments, resentment, conditionings, pride, acquisitiveness, envy, hurts, happiness, pain, bliss, possessiveness, doubts, concerns, compulsiveness, desires. I do admire very much how you're constituted. You're a real feeling person. Lotsa just the coolest stuff comes outa you. You're a trip. You're a v"}, {"response": 101, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, May 29, 1998 (05:45)", "body": "I'm merely frustrated. Because you tell me I'm wrong in what I feel. How can one's feelings be WRONG, Jim? I don't mind if my opinion of something is wrong and somebody tells me so, but how can you dismiss another person's FEELINGS as wrong? I don't understand. Must I suddenly switch them around, and be ashamed of them just because I was stupid enough to admit to them in front of one who knows all the answers, and for whose opinion I happen to have great regard? Not all people know how to have 'sensible' emotions, you know. Why don't you teach me? Let me see: So, if I fall and hurt my knee, I must not cry because it hurts - it would be more sensible to wash it with cool water and put on a plaster, because that way it will heal quicker. If an issue is difficult for me, because I fear it, then I must just accept it as that, in a sensible manner, because struggling with it, struggling with it vehemently and getting angry because I don't understand is wrong, and I should listen gracefully, with a quiet mind as people wiser than myself speak of them. If I should dare to fall in love I must be sensible and not show it a great deal, because showing half my love will be more truthful than showing all of it, and all the emotions it stirs up for itself and by itself, because these are probably false anyway. And I may not wish for Time to stand still for him until I have had the change to grow older, because it is selfish and manipulative to fear parting with what I have come (wrongly) to regard as an extra, living, beating organ just next to my heart. Be my friend now, and teach me about this sort of grace, Jim, so that I might become wise and remotely bearable as a person."}, {"response": 102, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, May 29, 1998 (11:23)", "body": "I am sorry - I will stay away from here for a while, because I am unable to come up with a singe rational response, and yet I just can't seem to keep my big mouth shut either. You are right: one should not discuss something if you cannot be rational about it - you just end up making a fool of yourself, and making enemies along the way. I am truly sorry for being impulsive and foolish; it will not be the last time, I'm sure; it is a terrible fault of mine, and I am thankful for not getting away with it."}, {"response": 103, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (00:04)", "body": "I'm just gonna start off by rambling. I'll just say stuff, I'll just hop around to different things, like a rambgler. These are just assumptions. They're just one person's views. It's just views. It's not truth or reality. No one should go by anything I say. We're only talking together. I felt incredibly relieved by the way you sounded in your last two posts. Because I felt like you were sitting down with me. Like I was okay. Like you were willing to be with me and talk stuff out a little. When I got your post #99, I was rocked, stunned, hurt. I couldn't do anything for a half hour. My heart and breathing increased like I had just had a physical workout. My chest and face and stomach were all flushed with warm circulation racing through them. I thought, this is actually quite amazing. What a wake-up call. Amazing infusion of just pure energy. I could see why people need to do something with it. Like vent, or call a friend, or go for a run, or pick something up and throuw it, or feel like the world has turned against them and get harder and harder against people in return. I didn't want to do any of those things. I wanted to be with this bizarre fire burning through me. I felt like it was time. Time to experience it instead of suppressing it. It was an opportunity. It was a gift, really. It went on long past what I could handle, and I did distract myself eventually. [...augh shit, I'm crying right now....so hard to communicate to people....] The sadness of seeing this: how you are, and how much of that I like, and seeing how much communication breakdown there is going on. You see, I would never allow myself to be your or anyone else's teacher. Unless only in the sense that you teach me as much or more than I teach you. We just learn from each other in our own ways. When I feel feelings that I think are wrong, I feel that that particular thought (that the feelings are wrong) is wrong. Of course, that doesn't help me any, either. The thought itself (that a feeling is wrong) keeps me from feeling my feelings. It suppresses my feelings. I'm then not able to be in touch with my own feelings. Take one that I have. I flatter or compliment or say something really honest about someone to that someone. Okay. So then I somehow start to sense something about that comment I made to that person. And I sense it like this: the comment felt compulsive. Or, um, that's not it, wait, it's the feeling I had around it felt compulsive. Yeah. Then I realize that I didn't feel it as wrong. I felt it as something (compulsive) that was about its actual inner nature. That helped me some to take a closer yet sensitive look at it. Just feeling my feeling some more. Kinda getting to know myself better....getting more in touch. Not being hard on myself. Being gentle. Being understanding. I sensed it to be compulsive, rather than wrong. My feelings are real (to me) and I don't want to cripple them or make them void. So I don't tell myself that they're wrong. Yet I sensed something in what I was feeling while I was saying that compliment. What was I really doing? I wanted to know. Sometimes I want to know about a feeling because I suddenly become embarrassed. Or I suddenly sense the feeling is compulsive in nature. The trick is to somehow learn what it means to be objective about it. Non-judgmental (it's not wrong). This isn't what you're referring to as 'sensible'. The other trick is to not diminish the feeling at all in the process. In fact, it's best to give it room. Be welcoming to the feeling. Encourage it. Invite it. It's like parents who feel a certain way about their kids, & finally shift from: \"you can be seen but not heard\" To: \"we want to hear you now as well as see you, and we love you and want all of you, we want everything about you\" It's how feelings and hurts become unsuppressed. It's how we enter into our depths and discover that there's no unconscious. It seemed there was. But we behold how conscious the unconscious in fact can really be. However, that's what comes with a very silent mind. One that's silent throughout the day, even when laughing out loud or crying. Not the easiest thing to come by. Accordingly, becoming conscious of our unconscious is not the easiest thing to come by. When feelings and hurts and frustrations are suppressed, they go to the unconscious. It's there in the unconscious that not only do they stay and become almost unreachable, but they also gain potency....and re-emerge and erupt in confusing forms at unexpected times and are rather upsetting and often lead to strange negative consequences. There's nothing for me to do or for you to do. There's no pressure at all. All I want to do is do what I want to do. I just happen to want to understand my feelings. I'm not getting any pressure to do that from anyone. I just want to. Wouldn't I want you to do what you want to do? Sure. Does it look like I want you to do what I want to do? Sure. It looks and sounds like that. Yet really I'm just all the time s"}, {"response": 104, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (02:23)", "body": "Much of your letter I cannot really answer, but I think about it, believe me. I think I understand you better now. Please forgive me for being such a fool when you are being so kind. There are two bits of your response I would like to say something to today. The first is that you musn't worry about the flowers - I hate getting flowers. I much prefer a picknick when I can enjoy them there where they belong. And the second is that I'm the last person who can share thoughts about fatherly love. Remember that person I murdered in my head? Yep! I thank you for everything. I am so glad you're here."}, {"response": 105, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (02:49)", "body": "Oh, I nearly forgot, how stupid of me. You asked about believing in myself. I do believe in myself partly - and partly also not. I think there's alot of room for improvement and 'evolution', things I am unable to realize about myself at this point, things I have to get rid of. It is an ongoing process which I'm not sure will ever be completed. I can't say I have ever thought about believing and not believing in my feelings. They are just there. If they are there, how can I not believe in them? If I feel the need to cry, I just do it and get it over and done with. I cannot really at that moment sit down and rationalize, and ask myself WHY I have to do it. Your story about Amanda; I found it fascinating and disturbing at the same time. I find it strange. I mean, the way the virtual you in the story were unable to cherish the moment, and instead crushed it with that cold, cruel question. Why not ask that question when she is being cold and cruel too? If love was what you felt for her at that moment, why did you not make love to her? That is what I don't understand about you."}, {"response": 106, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (15:20)", "body": "It is now after 20:00 at night here, and I'm still thinking about you - see, you too have the ability to throw me off course. I have been thinking alot about your story - I can't get it out of my head. I know now what has been bothering me so much about it; the fact that Amanda speaks words thought up by Jim Gross. Let us imagine for a moment that you are 'Jimbo' and I, Ri\ufffdtte, am Amanda (wow, feels great to have a normal name!). First I must make an adjustment or two. As her I will not walk out - I'm no coward, and I WILL fight you rather than walk you . . . I mean, 15 years and 3 kids aren't the sort of things I'd give up that easily! But forget about another pregnancy - I don't want to be fat for yet another nine months! There, that's better. Ha-Ha! Now, probably the first thing I would say, would be: 'Do you plan questions like these ahead? What pleasure do you get from them?' Yeah, if I'm going to be honest with you, I'd probably answer something like that - something to make you feel as hurt as I do at that moment. And then you say the thing about my expecting everything to be perfect; now, don't be offended, Jim (my dear Texas Ranger), but I think it's time Amanda says what SHE feels, not what you have decided she must feel - 'cos it makes your story a bit one sided, and gives you all the control . . . which is how you like it, or am I wrong? . . . So, as Amanda, I'd then say: 'No, Jimbo, it is not me who expects everything to be perfect all the time - it is you.' You see, Jim, I think the real reason why you asked Amanda that question is because you felt like you had lost control for a moment, and were desperate to get it back. Because it upsets and hurts you when at times she seems aloof, not particularly in the mood for arguments in which you always have the advantage of better vocabulary and way with words (after all, English is not her mother tongue in my version . . . ha-ha!). I mean when was the last time you 'lost' an argument with ANYONE, not just me or Amanda? Anyway a moment later, while you are still pondering these feelings, she turns around, the mood shifts, you are overpowered by her love for you and yours for her. You realize that something is happening here - something which makes you feel fear and pleasure and pain and doubt; you find it difficult and upsetting when something unexpected happens in your relationship with other people, feelings which you don't want inflicted upon you, feelings for which you resent her, because they don't fit into the world you have created for yourself, and you are unable to reason with them. And so a part of you wants to recoil, and retreat into that safe domain of which we all know: that part of us, which forever remains our own, of which no-one else can claim entrance, and which provides sanctuary whenever we are in need of a place to hide. When we choose to go there, any spectator who thinks himself wise may stare into our faces intently in the hope of gaining insight into our innermost thoughts; but while all the pages underneath may seethe and writhe with wild, untold stories, the cover will cleverly trick and deceive the reader, who will congratulate himself upon reading a tale of serenity and quiet meditation there. So, I imagine you would ask very calmly, though in a great many more words perhaps: 'Why do you say that?' Amanda: 'Because you are unable to take love for what it is. You fear it. You fear loving and being loved, you fear to embrace and be embraced in this jumble of emotions. You fear that it might upset the balance which you have so carefully set up in your mind. You are more than willing to experience the bliss, the ecstacy, the joy, but you cannot bear to be EVEN more human than that. You cannot bear to love three-dimensionally. You cannot bear to open yourself, body AND mind to the pain and weaknes it sometimes brings. You are unable or unwilling to understand that the less glamorous aspects of love are as necessary ingredients of our relationship as the pleasure. All of them are flames burning on the precious fire that unites us. And no matter which flame is burning highest at any particular moment - be it vehement, be it cruel or aloof, be it beautiful, or be it devoid of any visible emotion - every breath I draw is drawn for you. Can't you see that the pain we feel at times is PART of the pl asure, and just so is the pleasure PART of the pain?'"}, {"response": 107, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (19:51)", "body": "could not begin to respond to the last ten posts but... Jim, I think you're right (#96) the meaning of life does lie in our emotions."}, {"response": 108, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Sun, May 31, 1998 (06:20)", "body": "Riette, I want to kinda pat you on the back for all your last responses. If you ask me, they're showing evolution. Your last response felt like it had the taste of argument going on it. Yet it was still pretty well handled....relatively amicably. I like dialogue. It's less conflict-oriented than argument. I liked your idea of redoing the story. Pretty good idea you had there. I think one of the best things I can do is focus on myself. Not focus on you, Riette, or on you, Stacey, or on you, Autumn. Naw, no way am I focussing on me---I'm focussing on Wer, exclusively, from here on out. No, just kidding. Here's something that's not about you, Riette. It's about how my emotions work off of my thoughts. And it's about whenever the following situation comes up in my life. When I'm interacting with anybody. So, I look at myself. I see somebody else say something about me. I notice that it's negative. My head says \"hey, I'm under attack\" Emotions start right up real fast. Hurt, resentment, and then the ol' fight or flight or fright. The emotion of hurt I can't bear. So it gets suppressed. That makes it easier to do the other emotional reactions. It usually doesn't end up so splendid, the aftermath. I have this weird notion that love is not an emotion. That it's a pure feeling. That emotions are determined by thought. That love is beyond thought and emotion. If thoughts can be cleared up, then emotions will relax and disperse. Making way for feeling, pure feeling. I focus on negativity. Negativity is where all the problems go into action. If I can clear up my negativity, I can clear up my thoughts and emotions. I'll be capable of pure feeling and love. I know that's humanly too ideal. That's okay. It gives me my focus. I'll just, y'know, do what I can, that's all. On the other hand, it's true what you say, Riette: there may be not good reasons for why I focus on the negative. I may be using that as a way to put off feeling what I'm afraid to feel. I think it IS true, not MAY be true. So I include that very tendency in my focus on negativity. What does it really mean to focus on the negative? It means focusing on how I am negative. Not on how the other person is negative. It's totally unnecessary for me to focus on how the other is negative. I can't feel their emotions and thoughts. I can feel my thoughts and emotions. So what's the main first thing that happens with any negative reaction? Hurt. It's amazingly simple. I think the world of me, deep in my psyche, and not so deep. Somebody else doesn't (or I don't...when I get mad at myself). It started in babyhood. I needed to have what I wanted. I wanted things done my way. The universe revolved around my needs, around me. That formed in me, way way in there, when I was young. There were so many times when I didn't get what I wanted. I cried. I was hurt. That hurt got pushed outa sight. Since I didn't ever come back to it and didn't let it out and give it room, it stayed unconscious. It still operated, though. It was just as alive as ever. It didn't lose any potency. It gained potency. Now little things bother me. Easily. Many of 'em throughout the day. That kinda stuff is negativity. To find the solution to that is to find the hurt. The original hurt. Once it's contacted, entered into, worked through, negativity diminishes. Thoughts and emotions diminish. Feeling increases. Healthy feeling. The kinda thoughts I'm talkin' about are not reason. Reason is something else. Intelligence is something else. The thoughts I'm talkin' of are psychological thoughts. Thoughts that think with greed, envy, resentment, control, etc., etc. The emotions emote the same thing. The most basic characteristic of these negative thoughts is a demanding forcefulness. It's either used on the other person, or there is fear that it is being used on me. I use it on others or on myself. It comes out of the inner hurt being touched off. One example is flattery. I'm hurt that I have no intimacy in my life. I need it. It becomes a need. It becomes demanding. I force myself to go for it in my own way. I use flattery to win. It goes compulsive on me. If I get intimacy through flattery I will satisfy the need. But it won't satisfy the hurt. I always stay away from the hurt, the original hurt, the pain. So the needs continue to form. And they're all dysfunctional, neurotic. To start to notice this with various problems in my life is to notice patterns which can lead me more easily to the center, to the root cause. If I notice this psychological action when I'm feeling uncomfortable, or am having a problem, or am feeling compulsive, then I can notice that it's the hurt that's acting up, and it's giving me that chance to find my way through all the layers of defensive thinking, rationalizing, and self-protective resistance, to reach all the way in to the hurt. This helps too: to notice at those times of negative thought/emotion (uncomfortable, having a problem, feeling compulsive, tension, anxiety, bittern"}, {"response": 109, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, May 31, 1998 (07:23)", "body": "Thanks? That's my word, so be quiet. The last thing I feel at this moment is wrath. I feel admiration, and Amanda feels love, I'm sure. I would like you to know that all those things I said about you and control - I did not mean it as negatively as you may think. The word negative popped up over and over again in your response, so that must be the impression I gave. I was merely guessing at some vague picture I have now formed of you in my mind through your writing. Your openness, and honesty, and control, and fear and flattery - I like all of it. I don't want to change it, because I can cope with those things far better in people than superior qualities. I can relate, for sure. For you to admit to the need for a bit of control, to experience resentment and mistrust and envy and all those things - I could never regard that in a negative light. God knows, if those are your worst faults, then I must be a demon of some kind. I cannot even begin to describe mine, and why I allowed them to grow in the first place - but I think you know they are there, and that they are ugly. I am trying so hard to learn, to change. When I had my first exhibition I was interviewed by a journalist of a local art paper here; we disagreed about certain things. The next day the article said good things about my work, and to my name was added a single adjective: 'handgesponnen' - 'homespun'. I did not know the meaning of that word, so I looked it up in the dictionary. It said: an inelegant person. And I thought, yes, this is the truth. And it has become my reputation, through my own fault. I never stop struggling with myself for one moment, you know; and I think I am hard and harsh with others becuase I project this struggle, this battle going on inside of me. Sometimes I just want to sit down and rest. Like when I get wrapped up in the sweetest innocence and purest love from my two little children; then I feel so at peace, so serene - until I look intp the mirror and think to myself: how can they love you? I so want to be worthy of them, I want to be worthy of the name, mother. And hen I can hardly bear to be me at all."}, {"response": 110, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (02:19)", "body": "Damn! Just scrap that whole response. This topic is really getting out of hand. Let's talk about other kinds of love before we kill this whole subject with silly sentiment and whining. Or better yet, why don't we talk about the opposite emotion: hate. Is there any point to it? Not really, I think. So why do we do it? Or haven't you ever hated somebody?"}, {"response": 111, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (07:15)", "body": "I think the purpose of hate is to release internal pressure. Maybe fear turns into hate. Maybe judgment of somebody or some situation becomes a negative judgment. I think I feel this feeling of feeling justified when I hate somebody's behavior. So there are 4 possible qualities of what goes into hate, right there: negative judgment, release internal pressure, feeling justified, fear. Probably plenty more qualities where they came from. With me, with hate, I first of all need to be affected by something. It's got to get to me. It's got to agitate me. Very internal associations occur. I think that I can't stand that (whatever it is). Then I need to do something with the agitation. Because lotsa emotion is building up with nowhere to go. Automatically my mind/body just knows to discharge it. Hate's the ticket. To me, it's real interesting how these six things work together: judgment, self-worth, morals, associations, meaning, emotion Since what I happen to be looking at sets off associations, I feel meaning. Those associations have consequences for me. They remind me of stuff I don't want to be reminded of (so it's a judgment). At least in the case of hate. The consequence is agitation, and that's emotional, or the next thing it does is become emotional. It gives meaning because it's running through me. In other words, I'm not reacting indifferently to it. I decide that the stimulus was wrong. Like it was morally wrong. The stimulus that set off my response aroused my emotions and my values. It's extremely weird how judgemental and condemning I get over little things. But those little things apparently have deep associative meanings for me. So much so, that if I notice a bunch of qualities about somebody that come together in a really boring or banal way, I'll actually start to hate. The yuck factor. I'll hate the feelings inside me that are aroused by taking in another person's personality that I can't stand. I think some judge inside me, deep inside, is so unknown to me that it has never been helped along to emotionally grow and evolve. So it stays real situated and isolated in an extreme vulnerability. It's like completely hidden, and way deep down inside, yet seemingly has such a direct contact with everything that's going on externally. So this vulnerability in there is so susceptible to highly sensitive reactions. And these reactions are quite emotional, they surge with a big burst. Alotta hate emotions are real weasels.....POP goes the weasel. If I could stimulate more emotional growth in myself, it might be that it would happen by me relating to the concealed judge. If I could get a tour from the judge of the emotion factory that the judge runs, I'd be able to do something about how that factory operates. I could suggest something to the judge. But not until me and the judge become real true friends. Our trust can't be fake. I think my judge once told me that he/she/it is urgently pressed together with my own self-worth. But I may not've been listening so well at the time. The judge was saying something about how they were really in super tight collusion, somehow, I think, if I did hear that right, at all. I wanted to know more, but the factory started up and it got too loud to hear. I'm still trying to visit my judge. And I just don't do it often....visit, that is. Sometimes I get lost on the way in there. I'm so positive I know where the judge is, but then I forget how well concealed he/she/it is. The concealing part of this whole thing is very very very tricky. It kind of moves inside out of itself, through different subjective dimensions. Makes me want to give up before I hardly start, usually. Puzzling phenomena for sure. Just as quickly as it turned to me, it turned away, but while it turned to me, my self-worth whispered these words in a kind of hairy indistinct jabber: \"I am your self-worth, and I stay low, as in low self-esteem, because the judge deems the self to be not performing up to par---and we never really get anywhere together because the judge's verdict acts as a pitfall, it stops energy, and my powers of attention start instantly to fluster and seize and crash and burn\" Yet those two stay together and depend on each other. They're actually pretty okay folks, really. If only I can get in there, find them, bring them out to the light of day, give them space to be other possibilities in other beginnings in ways that ease along without so much of all that inbred tension they got hangin' over them now. If only I can have that happen once, the next time my hate happens. And then maybe I can help it to happen lots."}, {"response": 112, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (11:44)", "body": "All that AND conversations with Beethoven? You are starting to worry me! Does he have anything about hate? Now it's my turn to disgust you guys - as if you aren't already! I'll just go for impulsive confessions and speculation. I need to hear more before I can respond as thoroughly and rationally as you have. So at least you're warned. I'll start by making a positive statement, namely that I don't see the point in hating people anymore (not that I can, as I've killed all of them off in my head!!). ha-ha If I dislike something about somebody I just stay away from them - evasion tactics, I suppose. Because when I do let myself hate, it totally exhausts me and makes me unhappy; it means something or someone else has a hold over me, and that is to me the ultimate nightmare existence. Now, here comes one of my tedious stories - so feel free to leave at this point. I only remember ever having truly hated one person: my father. And it really had a very strong hold over me. My brother and sister hated him too, but they managed to shut up about it and save themselves the trouble; and today they're normal! Me, I just hated his guts, told him so every time I felt it, and I can't remember being able to sit alot - but running I got quite good at! It must be said that I was also a pain in the butt kind of child - Mum recently confessed that because of me Sonja and I felt like TRIPLETS, not twins! But seriously, I hated the way he walked, the things he said, the way he said it, and did (or didn't do), I hated his face, the expression on it, and, oh, I just wanted him to go away and die somewhere in a hole where an ostrich could dig him up and feed its young ones with the worms he would collect. I also feared him, I suppose, but I hated him so much that it didn't matter whether he took measures to instill the fear deeper or not. The guilt factor made it worse of course. I knew that it hurt Mum that I felt so, I knew it made life difficult for everyone, because daddy's ego could not cope with resistance. Today I just regret it. Because I realize that I wasn't being the tough kid who would not be suppressed (as I flattered myself at the time) - it was selfishness, sheer selfishness. A blunder. Just because I could not stand him, I had to make life unbearable at times for the rest of my family whom I loved, and who loved me. Instead of perseverance I chose hatred and thoughts of revenge - and it brought nothing, absolutely nothing. No rewards, no positive outcome for me (he still as much of a prick as e always was), no sense of satisfaction. The only thing it made me realize is the fact that it was simply not worth the effort. More I can't say at this point. Oh, except for a question. See, I was never able to just hate his actions. I hated the person as much as the actions. Is there where I went wrong with my hatred?"}, {"response": 113, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (15:39)", "body": ""}, {"response": 114, "author": "autumn", "date": "Mon, Jun  1, 1998 (22:20)", "body": "What is it they say, \"hate the sin, not the sinner\"? I think you did learn an important life lesson, Riette, that hatred has no positive outcome and is not worth the effort. Some live their whole lives without grasping this and make themselves miserable (and bring on physical illness, in my opinion). To distance or neutralize those hate-triggers is to do your mind & body a favor. By the way, I looked up \"homespun\" and my dictionary said \"unpretentious.\" What a compliment!"}, {"response": 115, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (02:33)", "body": "Possibly, but the guy really caught a dislike - BIG TIME. See, the argument started when he asked about the symbolism in my pictures. I told him there is no such thing as symbolism in my art, and that my pictures are meant to brighten up people's living rooms, not make them think deep thoughts. And from there it went on, so if homespun has a positive meaning as well, than it must have been sheer tact on his part! . . . I've exhibited thrice since, and it is now two years later - he still refuses to do interviews with me; the other journalist always comes. I once asked him about him, and he said this guy hates my guts!! HA-HA! No, but you are absolutely right about hate. I don't know how it is that you and Stacey and Jim and Wer just KNOW all the answers. Why do I always have to make errors in order to find them?!?! Some people are born wise, I think, and others are born 'homespun' and never quite find that grace. Personally I'd rather become wise now. But how?"}, {"response": 116, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (05:37)", "body": "As for me, all the stuff I say is just assumptions, not knowledge. I'm not wise. If I were, I'd be of a healthy mind. We can see that ain't the case. BTW, Stacey's response (#113), the heading of it says there were 2 lines in her message. But her box was empty, in mine....it was a blank response. Could someone pass along to me what her 2 lines were. Don't wanna miss out on any Stacey reactions to stuff. I'd like to be able to see things objectively, neither accepting them nor condemning them. Just seeing. So I wonder why I make judgments, positive or negative, instead of seeing. And I been wrastlin' with the notion that there's some embodied identification going on in each judgmental response I have. It starts, let's say, with how I see something I don't like about somebody. I then internalize that perception. It becomes embodied inside me as the perception becomes mine. And then do I even identify with it? If so, I can see how that can add to the revulsion I feel as the perception turns negative in judgment. Those 'internalizing', 'embodying' and 'identifying with' actions are occurring, I think, on an extremely automatic level that we're unaware of at the time, and it happens too quick to tell that it happened. Isn't it maybe just part of being human, part of being alive? I think that if I look closer at my reactions, I'll come upon stuff I'm not accustomed to coming upon. I'm used to numbing, neutralizing and distancing myself from feeling. Even happy feelings, not just negative feelings, and not just my hate. There seems to be something in the feeling itself. Something in the judgment going on, too. Seems to be something in particular that destabilizes me. And what that is is the dark side. The dark side is really, for me, the kind of seeing and feeling that destabilizes me. Naturally what's gonna be the dark side for me isn't gonna be the dark side for any of you. I have the feeling that that destabilization could be the best thing for me. The equivalent of emotional growing pains. But it is scary. And it is happening where no one is but me. It happens where I can bring it to a stop, by suppressing or distancing or neutralizing or going numb, and no one will know I'm doing that but me. Everyday life is such a grind. We look to the weekend. Life is such a struggle, so much turmoil, gotta push push push. And the dark side is to enter into the why and wherefore (for the grind). The dark side is quite alive, ready and waiting, inside our reactions where we don't venture to go, because it's too unbearable, too destabilizing. Suffering happens because I don't see what's actually going on, and instead I make up my mind that it's negative or positive. I just decide that and so I suffer for it. But suffering through my hate is not the same thing as venturing into the dark side. The dark side is right there in so much of our everyday reactions. And we don't look. We stay away from that. Oops, shoulda said that I don't look, and I stay away from that. Suffering is me deciding that this is terrible (like that Ramona was abusive towards me). If I don't decide that her abuse towards me is terrible, then I can feel what is there going on, as it is untouched by my negative judgment, my condemnation of it. Then the suffering is completely different. It is the feeling itself. But I don't do that because it's unbearable to do that. So I label it. That helps it become bearable. That affects the whole experience entirely, completely changes it. To not label it, to not touch it or change it, though, is to enter the dark side. Hardly anyone feels like doing that. Hardly anyone realizes they're not doing that. Hardly anyone realizes what's going on, or what they are doing. The unexamined life is not worth living, so said Socrates. Hardly any of my life is worth living, because hardly any of it do I examine. Talking about my life, thinking about it, that's not examining it. Thought doesn't listen to my life. It thinks about it. It's lost. Examining is listening, questioning, not condemning or accepting, not thinking thoughts about it. Yet I go along with anyone who says to beware when directly feeling what we feel, because it moves tremendously fast into idea, thought, sentiment, judgment, emotion, distortion. The mind is full when the heart is empty. The heart is full when the mind is empty. My mind is exceptionally subtle in its self-deception. It's most difficult for it to come to a stop on its own, which is what needs to happen for direct feeling and for venturing into the dark side of everyday life....into our reactions, our emotional reactions. There, that's enough worthless thinking for tonight. I'll just go ahead and close up my head, pack it away for another day. Meantime, I wish I could begin to live, to feel, to be vital and real. And be really in the present moment. Haven't been all through this thing. How 'bout you, y'all?"}, {"response": 117, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (10:19)", "body": "Stacey's response was blank on mine too--I think she hit \"submit response\" instead of \"next topic\" (easy to do when you're tired)."}, {"response": 118, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (10:24)", "body": "actually guys, tired as I was, it was not accidental. Leplep, you saw exactly my thoughts on the situation... I was speechless. For some reason though, I view it as a common courtesy maybe (ethical of course!) to let someone know when I've read through their posts even when I cannot come up with a comment."}, {"response": 119, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (16:31)", "body": "Never woulda thought of that. That is pretty nice of you, Stacey. What threw me was how the heading said 2 lines. Why would it do that? One of those quirks in the system...."}, {"response": 120, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Jun  2, 1998 (17:53)", "body": "nope. I had to press return so it would accept the fact that I posted something. Guess I hit it twice (for good luck)"}, {"response": 121, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (02:37)", "body": "And I thought you had two whole lines of brain strike!"}, {"response": 122, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (10:19)", "body": "that would not be unusual!"}, {"response": 123, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Jun  3, 1998 (14:06)", "body": ""}, {"response": 124, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Jun  9, 1998 (07:18)", "body": "uuhhh . . . ja. me too"}, {"response": 125, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (10:05)", "body": ""}, {"response": 126, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (13:13)", "body": "kinda how I feel, too, ratthing..."}, {"response": 127, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (13:28)", "body": "empty or thoughtless?"}, {"response": 128, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (13:33)", "body": "why can't I be both if I wanna?"}, {"response": 129, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Jul  2, 1998 (13:49)", "body": "Didn't say you couldn't! But you have my permission if that's what you wanted . . . \ufffdmocking smile\ufffd"}, {"response": 130, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Oct 14, 1998 (16:12)", "body": "Question: Which would you all prefer to inspire in your lover of choice? Passion Sensuality Romance Lust"}, {"response": 131, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Wed, Oct 14, 1998 (18:41)", "body": "depends, 50% of the time, lust. not too sure about the rest of the time."}, {"response": 132, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (02:00)", "body": "My lover of choice is the wind. I like inspiring nothing, and feeling it carry from summit to tide and cape to cape from vision to emptiness and strength to strength."}, {"response": 133, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (10:17)", "body": "good question, wer....i would want all of them in a lover (that's the gemini in me, can't decide)"}, {"response": 134, "author": "osceola", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (14:08)", "body": "You want different things at different times. Romance I would rate least. The other three emotions have depth. Romance seems superficial (to me). But lust by itself isn't enough. Combine it with passion and/or sensuality and you've really got something."}, {"response": 135, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (14:20)", "body": "Sonja here: I'd like to inspire friendship first. Then all the other things in this order: sensuality romance passion lust I could not be intimate/romantic/lustful/passionate to/with someone I didn't feel completely at ease with I don't think. But I am sort of slow with relationships - I can't just dive into all of it like a crazy thing .... (and I will name no names here - especially not that of my sister...)."}, {"response": 136, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, Oct 15, 1998 (20:48)", "body": "Sensuality and passion are tied for first. Romance is too--I don't know--shallow (notice how you're only really romantic w/people whom you don't know real well?) and lust is too base."}, {"response": 137, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (20:44)", "body": "Passion."}, {"response": 138, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (20:47)", "body": "yup (passion is ALL)"}, {"response": 139, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Oct 20, 1998 (23:27)", "body": "Even emptiness has passion. Even love has emptiness. Even death has passion. Can ya die to each day? Can ya die to each moment so yer not carrying it around with you and putting on weight or heaviness? In empty roomy space there is great passion, love, death, tremendous energy. Life in our death, every day, gives passion to the moment. Why? Cuz it's so fresh, new. The ego has a chance to disappear. In that same exact moment, meaning appears. And just like that, words, more words babble up another moment, another line. Look at all these lines. Die, you lines! Get yerselves empty. Bye bye, words. Poof! Renew. New passion. New eyes. New breath. No possessiveness. No my friend. No my husband. Just a whole new person. Starting completely fresh. Real passion."}, {"response": 140, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (04:26)", "body": "I think there is alot more to love than passion. There is alot more to love than love even. Sometimes I wonder if language can actually be trusted with the concept of love."}, {"response": 141, "author": "sonja", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (11:49)", "body": "Are we only talking about romantic love? I think one can exist quite happily without romantic love. But not without the love of a friend/family member(s). That one does need."}, {"response": 142, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (18:06)", "body": "Maybe categorizing love into different kinds, is the distrustful work of language or words mesmerizing us with their power (the power of language and words). We can come up with words for things, create definitions, circulate them in our dictionaries, refer to Plato's use of the different meanings, and that's good enough for us, we're satisfied, it's so convenient. But the word is not the thing, and the word does not make it so. Except that the word can be so mesmerizing, and boundaries are created where none exist, maybe? Is that so? What if passion and love and truth and freedom and innocence and beauty and sacred and pure are all really the same word. What if none of them can be comprehended, let alone finding a word for them. What if the moment you comprehended what any of them are, you comprehend that comprehension itself is too shallow to comprehend anything except within a completely unstable context of prepackaged meanings already set up to be related to each other according to the rules of some game, the game of language."}, {"response": 143, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Oct 21, 1998 (18:52)", "body": "wow i mean yeah, wow that's really cool leplep... think you're onto something there..."}, {"response": 144, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Oct 22, 1998 (04:19)", "body": "Yes, that's what I was wondering about. I mean is it not language, the power of the word, that has started some of the worst wars in history? How can one trust the language that can so easily be used for lies and empty promises, insults and commands to describe such a thing as love? But then again - how capable are we of loving?"}, {"response": 145, "author": "jgross", "date": "Thu, Oct 22, 1998 (18:46)", "body": "Phony self-importance and opportunism guide people. Opportunism involves comfort levels and habit. People don't like to question or be questioned, because to question, and to think, creates disturbances, it brings opposition, it may cause us to act contrary to our established pattern, so we resist in order to prevent the oncoming agitation or emotional upheaval. To love may lead to unknown depths, but what we're used to rebels against the unknown, so we move from the known to the known, from habit to habit, from pattern to pattern, where it's emotionally and psychologically safe. So it only makes sense, while staying within our own tendencies and patterns, to maneuver in opportune ways, which is self-centered and self-serving. Even when people are nice, they're really self-serving if they're hoping to get something nice out of it. Conflict and war comes out of fear. Fear to let go of our ego, our needs, our possessiveness, our habitual ways of doing things and feeling about things. We're afraid to leave ourselves behind and discover what's truly new and unknown, like love and responsive selflessness. Instead, we want what we already know. We want more of it and turn it into a need with all sorts of cooked up reasons---it's opportunism---it's conflict and war and suffering and pain. Words just flow out of that. If we understood and lived and felt love, we would use words wisely, understanding their limitations and acting and talking accordingly. Two of the hardest things to not resist are pain and agitation (emotional turmoil). We resist those two and it results in alotta evasiveness, false reasons, distraction. It results in people not doing the work it takes to find out what compassion (and then love) is. Compassion emerges when suffering is truly felt and understood completely. Selflessness is a strange word. Humility. To be able to listen deeply without any partiality and with great feeling."}, {"response": 146, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct 23, 1998 (02:01)", "body": "I must say I'm very guilty of that. I never really realized just how selfish love can be until the day I had my first baby. I phoned my mum to tell her it had happened, and got the news that my sister had TB, her lungs had collapsed, she might not make it through the night. And as I sat there stunned, all I could think was: What will I do without her? I. Not, how can I get there quickest to be with HER, buat what would 'I' do without her. I couldn't imagine MY life without her, nevermind the fact that she might HAVE no life. Human nature is strange."}, {"response": 147, "author": "sonja", "date": "Fri, Oct 23, 1998 (11:23)", "body": "Wow, girl! You felt that because of me?"}, {"response": 148, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sun, Oct 25, 1998 (01:37)", "body": "nah, she's just teasing :-)"}, {"response": 149, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, Oct 25, 1998 (01:14)", "body": "Of course, girl!"}, {"response": 150, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, Oct 25, 1998 (08:46)", "body": "which is what love's all about, really..."}, {"response": 151, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sun, Oct 25, 1998 (19:11)", "body": "Or is that deep needy attachment? Deep needy attachment has very powerful feelings going through it. It feels like love, as far as we know. Hardly anyone's capable of love. No, no, everyone's capable of love, but hardly anyone loves. It would've been different if Riette had said something like: \"That's why I went to you to be by your side when you had T.B.\" And Sonja says, \"Why?\" And Riette says, \"Because I wasn't thinking about me and what it would mean to me to be without you, I was just thinking about you, your life.\" And Sonja says, \"Wow, girl! You felt that because of me?\" And Riette says, \"Of course, girl!\" But we want what we want so bad, so we'll say that what we do is love. We like to believe and think idealistically about ourselves. I'm just saying, the ideal isn't the real. It's nice that we do what we do when it's nice, because it's better than if we didn't care at all about certain people or if we hated them---but the nice can be co-dependent and very very acceptable in society---it's commended and highly valued.....but it's not really love. Interpretations are just subjective, tremendously fallible, and this has been mine. I like seeing the variety of interpretations that we can have. I just thought, too, it would be cool to see Americ's, on this."}, {"response": 152, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Oct 26, 1998 (03:35)", "body": "Perhaps it is deep needy attachment - I don't know. My feelings for my sister are not perfect. But one's feelings for oneself aren't perfect either. And Sonja is a part of me as I am a part of her. That, I suppose, isn't love either. Perhaps I don't know what love is at all. All I know is that with her I truly belong, I am truly at home, truly me, deeply satisfied and serene inside."}, {"response": 153, "author": "sonja", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (06:40)", "body": "No, Leplep, if Ri\ufffdtte had said those things, they would not move me at all, nor strike me as particularly unselfish or noble, and certainly not an expression of love. Ri\ufffdtte is no angel, and no god of any kind; that is why I love her. She gives so absolutely everything for our friendship, and also in her relationship with Chris. When she's around, there's always laughter and play, happiness, and one always feels so CARED for with her - isn't that better than saying corny things like, 'Well, I was just thinking of you.'? I mean, in the way she treats me I can very well see that she thinks of me - but it is great that she needs me too, and isn't afraid to express that need. It's just so comforting to me that she is able to admit to her weaknesses so openly, and that she doesn't hide them behind noble, polished words - she says a thing as it is; you know where you stand with her, you don't walk around wondering whether she really cares, or whether she's just trying to keep you happy. You know how she feels, you know you can count on her, and you know she won't just change her mind. She is not afraid to tell me that she needs me, and I appreciate that. And isn't love about attachment as well? If you can't form emotional ties with people, if you don't learn how to need people, to accept their kindness and care, how can you possibly love them? Love isn't just about giving, it is also about receiving. I've always thought of it as a two-way thing. I agree with what Ri\ufffdtte said - that one cannot express love with language. Because when it comes down to it, it is the actions that count, not precisely defining what love should be or how it should be expressed, but just DOING it. In the search to find the correct words and language with which to express love, the abstract reality of it can easily become distorted. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm taking sides. I guess I am. It's just that I truly believe in my love for my sister, and her's for me."}, {"response": 154, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (06:54)", "body": "don't really know what y'all are talking about (haven't read previous posts, or what leplep said, though generally he seems pretty dead-on in his observations) (once they sink in and everything)... but what you wrote was really beautiful and true... really cool, and both of you (you and riette) are very fortunate to have each other..."}, {"response": 155, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (08:44)", "body": "question time again.... Can one have a \"soulmate\" that is \"in love\" with someone else?"}, {"response": 156, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (09:34)", "body": "i think so, but confuse myself with thoughts about that. i've stopped wondering who mine is. i'd like to think it's beau because he can make me laugh and is accepting of all my (many) faults. on the other hand, i am very close to my daughter who is like her father in the fact that she could care less about my faults. and my son would do anything if he knew it pleased me. so what can i say? i'm loved by these three wonderful people so i have no right to wonder if there's someone else out there. and because i know that i love them with all that's in me even if i confuse myself sometimes. and i agree with sonja. love is so large that words cannot begin to describe it's power. but to be able to admit your weaknesses without shame, without apology, and it making no difference to anyone, truly, that's love of the self. which you must have first."}, {"response": 157, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (15:50)", "body": "my bestest bestest closest friend in the whole world has been in love with other people, i guess."}, {"response": 158, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (16:02)", "body": "i take it your bestest friend is someone you're in love with?"}, {"response": 159, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (16:15)", "body": "well, i guess so, but not in a romantic way. nothing has ever happened between us, and never will."}, {"response": 160, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (16:57)", "body": "Doesn't keeping or finding or having a soulmate distract from seeing what love is not? Isn't \"soulmate\" a matter of sentiment? Look how it appeals to people, look how subjective it is. We think that surely with our soulmate we are in love, right? And then wouldn't that become what we want to pursue? Well, when we think we're in love, that's that. It becomes very difficult to question what we want and what we want to believe. It becomes that much harder to question when we take sides, isn't that true? Partiality mixes with need and it sets up competitive forces---then what happens to our ability to see what's actually taking place? Doesn't it distract from our chances to see what is false? We've gotta be able to see what love is not. There are alotta things that love is not that also feel very honorable and good and beautiful. And it's hard to i agine, let alone actually see, that they are not love. If we have something that is very important to us and gives us tremendous pleasure and satisfaction, wouldn't it be natural to be reluctant to look into the meaning of the weaknesses and faults? I'm saying that the weaknesses and faults point to how what's not love is not love. Attachment and need are one thing. They can be extremely fulfilling and comforting. The vast majority of the world population would wonder how can you dare to doubt these o-called virtues (the fulfilling and comforting feelings that come from attachment and need). It has to be love, according to societal norms. But the self is very concerned about itself. It certainly wants to do all it can to hold onto what means the most to it, what makes it most happy. Really, the self is a bundle of needs and attachments that have formed into longstanding habits. To love one's own self, to do that first, is really to first start learning how to love one's own dependencies, one's w aknesses. Love starts to mean to take care of one's faults. I'm saying that's not love, it's not what love does. Love doesn't love what is a weakness. Love not only admits a weakness, it also looks into the weakness in order to learn what the weakness is, how it got there, how it functions. Dependence glorifies dependence and gives it a name that it likes the sound of very much. Love is free of all that. It's something else. It can't be described, as has been mentioned, but what is not love can be described and noticed and understood without corniness, without stereotyping, or polishing off slick facile word combinations. I think I'm being honest, not trying to cunningly verbalize an argument and then sticking to it no matter what. It's true that a person wouldn't say \"Because I wasn't thinking about me and what it would mean to me to be without you, I was just thinking about you, your life.\" That was written like that to use the same formula but different wording than what WER seemed to me to b responding to when he said, \"which is what love's all about, really.....\" In other words, the formula of the words that WER seemed to me to be responding to, that formula required that the way I had to rewrite what was inserted into the formula had to be unnatural sounding---but it could work as far as getting the point across---which was that love isn't concerned with self-centered thoughts. Those last few sentences were hard to figure out what I was driving at, eh? Well, it wasn't an easy thing to s ell out and clear up, either. When we're attached to people we really \"love\", they figure more prominently in our lives and we see their characteristics more acutely than other people. Since we depend so acutely on them for our serenity, our feeling of feeling cared for, our deeper experiences of happiness, we don't see that that dependence forms limitations in us that become habit. Do you see what I mean? Love doesn't do that. Love sees another person's faults and is interested in them because they revent that other person from experiencing love which can only happen when we are free from attachment and dependence and need. Our faults are not just to be admitted and that's that. They are to be explored and gotten to the bottom of. That's what love does. Love is not going to be attached and partial and limited. That's something else, not love. Freedom is in love's nature. So is learning. Love can only live in truth. Faults are not truth. They are false ways of living. They are weakness. eakness is not bad. It's not to be condemned or disapproved at all. Doing that only interrupts the learning, the freedom, the love. I don't love. I'm doing something else like everyone else. Please, don't hold back, be forthcoming and as totally honest as you can be, and say more, let's go further into this, because I don't think we've gone very far at all, have we? I hope I haven't made too many of you feel like it's pointless to go on talking about this, at this point."}, {"response": 161, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (17:04)", "body": "um...don't mean to be picky, but you couldn't re-post that with a few paragraph separatoins in could you - it's really hard on my eyes to read it! :-) cheers *blush*"}, {"response": 162, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Oct 27, 1998 (17:18)", "body": "Doesn't keeping or finding or having a soulmate distract from seeing what love is not? Isn't \"soulmate\" a matter of sentiment? Look how it appeals to people, look how subjective it is. We think that surely with our soulmate we are in love, right? And then wouldn't that become what we want to pursue? Well, when we think we're in love, that's that. It becomes very difficult to question what we want and what we want to believe. It becomes that much harder to question when we take sides, isn't that true? Partiality mixes with need and it sets up competitive forces---then what happens to our ability to see what's actually taking place? Doesn't it distract from our chances to see what is false? We've gotta be able to see what love is not. There are alotta things that love is not that also feel very honorable and good and beautiful. And it's hard to imagine, let alone actually see, that they are not love. If we have something that is very important to us and gives us tremendous pleasure and satisfaction, wouldn't it be natural to be reluctant to look into the meaning of the weaknesses and faults? I'm saying that the weaknesses and faults point to how what's not love is not love. Attachment and need are one thing. They can be extremely fulfilling and comforting. The vast majority of the world population would wonder how can you dare to doubt these so-called virtues (the fulfilling and comforting feelings that come from attachment and need). It has to be love, according to societal norms. But the self is very concerned about itself. It certainly wants to do all it can to hold onto what means the most to it, what makes it most happy. Really, the self is a bundle of needs and attachments that have formed into longstanding habits. To \"love\" one's own self, to do that first, is really to first start learning how to \"love\" one's own dependencies, one's weaknesses. \"Love\" starts to mean to take care of one's faults. I'm saying that's not love, it's not what love does. Love doesn't love what is a weakness. Love not only admits a weakness, it also looks into the weakness in order to learn what the weakness is, how it got there, how it functions. Dependence glorifies dependence and gives it a name that it likes the sound of very much. Love is free of all that. It's something else. It can't be described, as has been mentioned, but what is not love can be described and noticed and understood without corniness, without stereotyping, or polishing off slick facile word combinations. I think I'm being honest, not trying to cunningly verbalize an argument and then sticking to it no matter what. It's true that a person wouldn't say \"Because I wasn't thinking about me and what it would mean to me to be without you, I was just thinking about you, your life.\" That was written like that to use the same formula but different wording than what WER seemed to me to be responding to when he said, \"which is what love's all about, really.....\" In other words, the formula of the words that WER seemed to me to be responding to, that formula required that the way I had to rewrite what was inserted into the f rmula had to be unnatural sounding---but it could work as far as getting the point across---which was that love isn't concerned with self- centered thoughts. Those last few sentences were hard to figure out what I was driving at, eh? Well, it wasn't an easy thing to spell out and clear up, either. When we're attached to people we really \"love\", they figure more prominently in our lives and we see their characteristics more acutely than other people. Since we depend so acutely on them for our serenity, our feeling of feeling cared for, our deeper experiences of happiness, we don't see that that dependence forms limitations in us that become habit. Do you see what I mean? Love doesn't do that. Love sees another person's faults and is interested in them because they prevent that other person from experiencing love which can only happen when we are free from attachment and dependence and need. Our faults are not just to be admitted and that's that. They are to be explored and gotten to the bottom of. That's what love does. Love is not going to be attached and partial and limited. That's something else, not love. Freedom is in love's nature. So is learning. Love can only live in truth. Faults are not truth. They are false ways of living. They are weakness. Weakness is not bad. It's not to be condemned or disapproved at all. Doing that only interrupts the learning, the freedom, the love. I don't love. I'm doing something else like everyone else. Please, don't hold back, be forthcoming and as totally honest as you can be, and say more, let's go further into this, because I don't think we've gone very far at all, have we? I hope I haven't made too many of you feel like it's pointless to go on talking about this, at this point."}, {"response": 163, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Oct 28, 1998 (02:14)", "body": "Interesting. I must say I've never thought of my husband as my soulmate. I mean, there's great friendship between us, but fundamentally we are probably the two most different people who ever existed. I've thought of a few people I've met as 'soulmates', not because I necessarily loved them, but because I found their minds functioned similarly to my own. So the easy thing about it is that the 'soulmate' knows exactly what you're talking about when you talk about it. But at a certain point the relationship with a soulmate can become difficult; you're confronted with your own mistakes alot, and you don't love the person more for it. And at some point you run out of words and thoughts to share; the e ement of surprise soon fades. I can only take SO much of myself before feeling the need to throw up! With a non-soulmate it is different, and, I find, in a way healthier. For example, my husband thinks so differently from the way I do that he is able to recognize my mistakes, and point them out when he needs to. With a soulmate that would not happen, because the person would be as unwilling to see their faults as I myself am. With a non-soulmate the relationsip also remains stimulating, since the person always has new ways of thinking, doing, reacting to offer; things that enrich you. And in your own way you offer something to the non-soulmate as well. There is alot of interaction as you learn to understand one another, and some things you never understand, but forever try to figure out. The relationship is a challenge, interesting and frictious. That's what I love. Then, when you do compromise, when it does make 'click' it's more like a 'BOOM'! And that's when it turns really hot and passionate, and deeply satisfying. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think love is more likely to occur with a non-soulmate than the other way around."}, {"response": 164, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Oct 28, 1998 (10:10)", "body": "i understand what you're saying. my husband and i click but we do think differently. we have a similar sense of humor, he knows me like the back of his hand. we do this thing where i'll think something and he'll say it or the other way around and we're miles from each other when it happens. this happens so much it's scary. we went to a restaurant and ordered the same thing and the waitress thought we were siblings. we got a good laugh. but because we're different, we teach each other all the time. and we offset each other's impatience, you know? he's more tolerant in some areas than i am and we complement each other."}, {"response": 165, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Oct 28, 1998 (17:08)", "body": "One thing about pain and weakness and negativity and faults is that we tend to want to avoid that and move in the other direction---towards deeply satisfying feelings. That's how pain and pleasure become 2 sides of the same coin. I think it's important to see our limitations as a great source of learning and to see learning as freeing and to see freeing as to experience something with affection and to see affection as something that is full of passion and to see passion as full of stillness and energy and extraordinary attention. What our mind and our self does not want to look at is the stuff that could shatter everything the stuff that could question the very foundation we base our living and thinking and feeling on. One reason why we can't stand ourselves is because of our limitations. We feel trapped inside the sameness and the known. This is a treasure being handed to us.....it's very precious. To have the chance to see just how limited we are is of great worth. Especially if we get to see it very clearly in all its starkness. And when the discomfort gets to us, can we realize this is a signal, a signal to look closer at an important energy force at work in us? The thing which we fight, that's what we turn into. When we don't want to look, can we look? And can we begin to see that this is it. This is the thing that is most meaningful. And this is also when it's good to relax into a natural calm, a quiet stillness that listens with ease and with affection. The self prevents love, and the self must be understood very clearly. So what is the self with all its needs and compulsions and habits and requirements? Don't we get to see who we are when we notice our reactions? How we react to the leaf swaying back and forth on the branch, to the cashier at Walmart, to the next-door neighbors as they walk past us and into their front yard, to the phone when we hear it ringing---isn't that where we are and isn't that when we see our self as it actually is? These are deeply conditioned reflexes, and memory that works so automatically, it executes in the rehashed moment with fresh response, though that fresh response may be rather dull and predictable. Self is a rather a petty paltry thing. Love is beyond the self---it is when the self is not. The strains and pulling threads, those patterns that make up the self are not so necessary when they are seen in action. In those moments of seeing, the self steps aside, it desists. Love acts then....it's new and fresh and original and uncontaminated. It's security. The security of being tremendously alive with passion and a curious and amazing energy.....change, freedom, the real, truth, love. That security is different from the security of a wife or a husband or a family. Family tends to turn into the interrelated workings of its selves. Just tons of judgements rule the household. Judgments that go and go and go with all their potency, unchecked. And the guarded armor, the defensive routines that are taken for granted, and worked around. Please disagree with all this. These statements/opinions are only coming from some self that is partial to what its conditioning suggests. Just throwing stuff out there into the topic like the rest of you are. I'm not trying to rile. Not trying to set off intense severe barbed wire emotions in any of you."}, {"response": 166, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct 31, 1998 (05:46)", "body": "I would love to disagree with you. The things you say - they go AGAINST how my mind works, how my very insides work. But I am feeling the proof of your statements about love and selfish need like lead in my chest this morning. I feel numb and incomplete and miserable, just miserable."}, {"response": 167, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Oct 31, 1998 (07:37)", "body": "Every feeling can be penetrated into the very quick of its depth of release. If someone were to ask me what I think numb and incomplete and miserable are, I would say they aren't what they seem. They seem like thick deadening blockages. Actually they're powerful energy systems. Not systems. They are so alive. The biggest challenge in life is to go into them. Even though our stomachs turn at such a prospect. The point is, though, that there's no other way to come upon love. Love won't let us love until we get to know ourselves. Otherwise who is it who is loving? We're a mess, and we are loving? No, we can love only when we understand ourselves. If it's real understanding, then it resolves and dissolves the blockages. In that release and freedom, love can give birth to a new person. The important thing is learning how to face the fact of who and where we are right now. To face that, we begin to see how it's possible to feel differently about what we can't stand. Getting over that hump is huge. It has to do with noticing things. We start noticing things about the numbness and the incompleteness, the miserableness. It hardly ever occurs to us that we can sit down and just look at it. Relax our minds and just look at the miserableness. It's a funny thing. It's funny too how easy it is to do, when it would used to seem so impossible. So unbearable. But now it's not. There's some frozen food taken out of the fridge. It's sitting on the counter now, thawing. We are too. We are numb....but now at least we are also thawing. There are some changes very slowly becoming noticeable as the thaw goes on. The miserable feeling is walking toward us and then away and then back towardf us, and touching our immediacy. We are seeing our way into this thawing, this loosening movement. The sunlight is warm on our hands as it breaks through into the cemetery of our beings. Miserableness is a fact and we are numb with our incompleteness, and we are meeting this new acquaintance who we thought for sure was one of our oldest worst enemies. Listen closer now to it. This is life. It isn't easy. There are creaks in the bones. But we go numb and feel miserable because we closed up ourselves. We didn't want to be hurt. But to avoid hurt we closed up, and that hurt us even more. There's a certain mystery in the beauty of recognizing how it works. To see our miserableness like we might see an unattractive person who fell on hard times and is disregarded with disdain...... that is a touch of warmth coming back into our numbness. We feel we should give ourselves another chance right then and there. Now and here. We look and feel miserable. But our miserableness is human, like the person who fell on hard times. Our miserableness actually means something in and of itself. Something quite important. Something worth listening in to. Because it is our hearts we're really listening to then. We just didn't know it, cuz all appearances seemed contrary. Yes, miserableness has a heart, a soft warmth that bleeds as it wants to know how to feel and open and come out of itself and bloom. What takes it by the hand is the listening. Listening is the one thing that can connect, join and release. Listening is freeing, and it's not easy, but it's true and it is fact. It's funny to listen to how pain is not really pain, though it just absolutely seemed so miserable. The pain and hurt of the miserable, that's what changes, it changes into how close we come to ourselves when we listen in and hear something beating behind what feels so numb and incomplete---our heart has more than a pulse, and it's beating out a rhythm that needs to be listened even more closely to..... yes, to do that when we think we can't..... it's the same as offering some of ourselves to the stranger who looks miserable and wretched over there..... they look up at us, totally astonished, they can't believe that we are there with them, listening.... just like we are now listening to our miserableness.... and finding out that it is very human and responds to sincere attention. I say attend to it with an understanding heart. There is a learning and a freeing that happens. It's the only way those blockages can come unblocked. But the listening must be effortless or it won't be genuine. It's most human when there is no desire for results. Life comes back to us when it is just allowed to be. It's practically embarrassing how it uncomplicates itself eventually, if only by gradual steady progressions. Please, now, feel free to live more disagreement with these lines.... it's good and healthy.....it's fine to wonder about things so differently from the next person. Let's see what we can see as we see divergently, each in our own way."}, {"response": 168, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Oct 31, 1998 (12:26)", "body": "riette, why are you so miserable?"}, {"response": 169, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Oct 31, 1998 (14:59)", "body": "missing your sis, huh? *hug*"}, {"response": 170, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct 31, 1998 (16:24)", "body": "Thank you for that, Jim - I feel calmer now; it sort of hit this morning, and that always makes me panick a little; I hate inflicting red eyes and a runny nose upon other people, and there were three of the dearest in the house. So the conference, this topic, was my one wise choice of the day, I think! Yes, Ray, I've been feeling a pretty sorry-ar$ed bunch since my sister flew last night; I miss her so much, it feels as if just letting miserable happen without controlling it really hard, will make it utterly unbearable. I keep thinking, a week ago this time we were doing this, and five days ago that, and two days ago, and so on. It was horrible talking to her and the other two this afternoon, and not being able to be there. And then my mum started crying, and refused to admit it, and I could not eve be with her or hold her. I just hate this distance, I really do. The thing that frightens me most every time we have to part, as with the others, is idea that I will become used to her absence again, that the fact of us being so far apart physically will merely become a dull sort of pain, and incompleteness in the furthest corner in my mind. I don't want to get used to it anymore. It is selfish, I am selfish, but I just want her back here, and at the same time I want to be with her and my brother and y mum right now. I think about how we'd be sitting around the kitchen table now, drinking tea, talking all at once, my brother telling us all the old jokes again, and they being hysterically funny just because the four of us decided they were funny a long long time ago. I want to hear my mum tell us to be quiet because of the neighbours, my brother telling her favourite story, and her bursts of laughter drowning ours. I want to talk to them, I want to listen to their voices, the things they have to sa , I want to see their faces, their eyes! I would love to look into their eyes, I would love to see what I always see there. And we'd be making the 'Christmas Bed' on the living room floor, and all lie down side by side, whispering deep into the night. I know that is what they are doing as I sit here, and it hurts, that's all. We always say that we must be grateful when being apart hurts, for if we were grateful for being apart, it would have been a far worse thing. So it's really a lucky thing."}, {"response": 171, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (19:12)", "body": "I've missed so much in this conference in a month! I find it amusing that soulmates are often assumed to be excessively similar when, in our verbal reality, when we discuss 'mates' the are opposites. Boy, girl. Yin, yang. Right shoe, left shoe. etc."}, {"response": 172, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (19:55)", "body": "In order to be a true soulmate, you have to be opposite, and the same. Your strengths have to match your mates weakness. And your weakness must match your mates strengths. Yet you have to think as one entity. Be committed to a single goal. And have the trust to allow individuality in each other."}, {"response": 173, "author": "wolf", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (21:39)", "body": "golly, how'd you get to be so smart? one can go their whole life without knowing their soulmate-- is this kind of like the \"everybody has a twin\" theory?"}, {"response": 174, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 17, 1998 (23:05)", "body": "Not Quite, I have found 5 different soulmates so far. There are probably more out there."}, {"response": 175, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (02:22)", "body": "I don't have to look, I HAVE a twin, and she's all the soulmate I can take!"}, {"response": 176, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (05:38)", "body": "Not true. One day you'll stumble across another. Your attitude will change."}, {"response": 177, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (20:38)", "body": "tim--you have 5 soulmates? i was always under the impression that you only had one! (and riette--i'm the other twin, remember *grin*)"}, {"response": 178, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (21:14)", "body": "It may be that our definition of soulmate is different. Here is mine: A soulmate is someone who thinks enough like you to know, how you think, what you are thinking, even before you speak, you can start a sentence, and they can finish it, effortlessly, without thinking about it. With your soulmate, you can converse, using the smallest fragments of sentences, because your thoughts are the same, and conversation moves almost at thought speed, much faster than anyone else can follow. But most important, a soulmate can see when you are deceiving yourself, and tell you about it. I have met 5 people like that. I'm still in contact with three of them."}, {"response": 179, "author": "wolf", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (21:23)", "body": "that's good! well, then i can say i've met and married one. but even knowing that, i confuse myself sometimes. guess that's the human being in me. a soulmate doesn't have to be of the opposite sex do they? i always thought they were for some reason."}, {"response": 180, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 18, 1998 (22:22)", "body": "No they don't. One of mine Isn't. Two of mine are boyfriend-girlfriend. These are two of the three."}, {"response": 181, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (02:40)", "body": "I defenitely didn't marry my soulmate! He says he doesn't have clue about what goes on in my head. And I sure don't know what goes on in his either! Awe, Wolfie, I'm so sorry - we ARE twins! But you've been so quiet, how could I not have forgotten? What have you been up to, girl?"}, {"response": 182, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (05:18)", "body": "I was taking this friend of mine back to the car after picking her up at the hospital, when we came upon this lady pushing a double stroller, you know the kind, two babies can ride side by side. Anyway, there is a baby in one side and a 1M stuffed gorilla in the other, My friend said, \"Hey look.....twins!\" everyone on the elevator started laughing. This comes to mind every time twins are mentioned."}, {"response": 183, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Nov 19, 1998 (08:54)", "body": "riette: just been busy girlfriend! (doing what, i have no idea) seems when i jump on line no one else is here, so i say what i have to say and check in later... and that was cute about the gorilla and baby! poor mama probably heard that everywhere she went..."}, {"response": 184, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (02:12)", "body": "It's hilarious! But disturbing - wonder who's the gorilla in my twinship. Actually, I know the answer, because I know which one of us is the hairiest.... You been painting lately, Wolfie?"}, {"response": 185, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 20, 1998 (04:23)", "body": "Which one is it?"}, {"response": 186, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "Sonja! She has blond hair, but so much of it, it sort of covers her back like chicken feathers. Men find that very sexy about her."}, {"response": 187, "author": "jgross", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "Especially the male chickens. But male humans find that male chickens are so predictable. So male humans do try to be different from male chickens. But I dunno if any have succeeded........yet."}, {"response": 188, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "none that I know of... Question: how does one go about severring(sp?) the ties between one and one's soulmate?"}, {"response": 189, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "Why would you want to?"}, {"response": 190, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "the ties between one's soulmate fluctuate in intensity, but i do not think that they can ever be severed. this would be a contradistinction to the very definition of a \"soul mate.\" the male chicken reference reminds me of a famous story told about something called the \"Coolidge Effect.\" President Calvin Coolidge and his wife once went on a tour of a chicken farm. at one point, mrs. c's entourage came across the breeding area. the breeding area was full of hens and had one dominant rooster. mrs c. asked the farmer how many times a day the rooster mated with hens. she was very impressed with the number that was given, and said, \"tell that to the President.\" later on, President Coolidge's entourage made it to the same breeding area. the farmer related to the president the bit of info that mrs c. wanted him to know. at that, the President asked the farmer, \"Does the rooster mate all those times with the same hen or with different ones?\" Different ones, of course, answered the farmer. \"Tell that to Mrs. Coolidge.\" replied the President."}, {"response": 191, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (01:54)", "body": "haha!! how clever!! wer: you ok? wanting to split up with a soulmate and all...."}, {"response": 192, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (20:54)", "body": "yes, wer, i hope you are ok. you can tell a soulmate to fuck off and die (i've done it) but they always come back (she and i are, in fact, going into business together)."}, {"response": 193, "author": "terry", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (22:53)", "body": "Yeah, what's up kitchen guy?"}, {"response": 194, "author": "Anastaisa26", "date": "Sat, Nov 21, 1998 (23:45)", "body": "I have no idea where I am. Can someone help me please?"}, {"response": 195, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (00:43)", "body": "Let's hope so. Where do you want to be?"}, {"response": 196, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (19:04)", "body": "stephanie, i hope you are reading this! just enter in a response and watch the responses to your response flow in! elcome!"}, {"response": 197, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (22:20)", "body": "This raises an interesting moral dilemma. Is it OK to \"divorce\" your soulmate if the relationship is unhealthy, co-dependant, whatever? Or are you obligated to establish harmony and equilibrium w/them?"}, {"response": 198, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (22:39)", "body": "i've simply believed that a relationship with a soulmate cant be bad. it can have its ups and downs, of course. does that make any sense?"}, {"response": 199, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (23:33)", "body": "I think by definition it's supposed to be a state of being at peace with each other and the universe. But now we have dysfunctional soulmates?"}, {"response": 200, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (23:40)", "body": "Maybe peace isn't the best term. I think that oneness expresses it better. It's a powerful feeling, you have to be ready for it. My first time, I wasn't ready for it, the second time, neither one of us was ready."}, {"response": 201, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (02:25)", "body": "So what happened?"}, {"response": 202, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (02:49)", "body": "The first time, we became, and still are friends, she is married now, and lives 1100 miles away but we still talk. How she explained me to her husband, I have no idea, but she did. We have been friends now for 25 years. The second time we got too close too quickly, because neither of us knew what we were getting in to. the resulting closeness terrified both of us. she moved 2200 miles away. I haven't seen her since."}, {"response": 203, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (02:51)", "body": "There are three others. All of whom live close by. One of them is Laura. We have been friends 17 years."}, {"response": 204, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (08:35)", "body": "That's great. The thing that frightens me about 'soulmates', is that it is easy to expect things of the other person, just because you think he/she is JUST like you. I have a few times felt like a person I met was my soulmate; then I treated them just like the one soulmate I have already (my sister), and it turned out wrong. If one has a soulmate of the opposite sex, do you think it good or bad when they sleep together?"}, {"response": 205, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (11:01)", "body": "i think that in my case, my soulmates are not at all just like me. instead, we complement each other perfectly, so that we add up to one whole \"being\" or \"oneness\" as tim mentioned above."}, {"response": 206, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:32)", "body": "My soulmate hated me from the very beginning. So I just talk to her answer machine. She once left a message asking me how I'm feeling about my soulmate. Her answer machine is the most receptive being I've ever done time with. And that includes everyone in San Quentin. I say this bashfully, but.....our love will never end."}, {"response": 207, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:34)", "body": "Riette, It depends what you mean by sleep together. If you mean sex, It would have to be approached very carefully, because it is the ultimate sharing and it will either immeasurably strengthen the bond or cause indescribable hurt. It would have to be discussed. If you mean just sleeping together, that is just GREAT! It is another form of sharing. My first soulmate's name is Christa. We slept together numerous times. Attended love feasts together. never had sex. Laura and I have slept together numerous times, lived together several times, shared everything with each other, except sex. When I met her, she was underage, so we made an agreement not to have sex. Since that time she has had many men take advantage of her sexually, so I have decided that we will not have sex unless she decides that is what she wants without any question about it from me. I figure that what she really needs is a male friend that will never attempt to take advantage of her. She also has extreme trust in me. I value that trust, and I will not break it. Because she is an alcoholic and on medical assistance, she had to list her next of kin at the trauma center. These are adults that can sign for her to be treated against her will, and if she ends up on life support, make the decision to pull the plug. My name is first on her list, her mother is second. There is nobody else on the list. She has 3 brothers and 1 sister. They are not on the list. Her father is not on the list. That is an awesome trust. I will not violate it."}, {"response": 208, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:48)", "body": "Doesn't anyone care about all the guys I slept with in San Quentin? Some were incredible unforgettable nights and longer. But I tell you this, as firmly as I've ever said anything, nothing comes close to my soulmate's answer machine. There's a love there that will last forever. I can't even remember my soulmate's name. Her phone number is that matters anymore."}, {"response": 209, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (02:30)", "body": "BUT: have you slept with her, Jim? You know, on the answering machine. Tim, you sound like a good soulmate to have. But if one has a soulmate of the opposite sex (and remember, I don't really know what I'm talking about, because I've not experienced this), then doesn't it just get natural at some point to share everything? Because we're made up of body AND of soul. Does it not become natural to share the body, once you share the soul?"}, {"response": 210, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (02:37)", "body": "Yes, It does. But the time has to be right. Because once that sharing occurs. you have no secrets. You can hold nothing back, never again. It's pretty awesome If you think about it."}, {"response": 211, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (13:14)", "body": "I've never shared my body because it doesn't know what time is. It keeps asking me, \"Jim, is it time? is it time? is the time right yet?\" I never know what to say because I keep thinking my body should be telling me when the time's right, not the other way around. This pleases my soulmate's answer machine no end. And this is the most complicated relationship I've ever been in. But our love will never end. BTW, her answer machine has an incredible body. Sometimes I want to touch it on the play button. But as I reach toward it, the answer machine slides around on her bedside table away from my big fat hand. Everytime I see my soulmate, she tells me with rising intensity, \"I hate you and I always will. I hate you. I hate you.\" But she threatened to give me her answer machine. I can't figure out why she felt it was a threat. I guess I'll find out in a 6 days, that's when she said she'll give it to me. I'm almost certain, no, no, I am certain....I'm certain her answer machine is my real soulmate---and I was only led to it by her and her apparent soulmatedness. Life's problems can get so tricky and confusing sometimes....just have to hang in there and roll with the punches and the messages you leave."}, {"response": 212, "author": "autumn", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (21:26)", "body": "Jim, I am LOL at you having phone sex with your soulmate's answering machine! I hope you two will be very happy together--I'm betting it will even wait fort you while you're up the river doing a nickel!"}, {"response": 213, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (02:43)", "body": "ha-ha!!! Tim, it is pretty awesome, but how does one know when the time is right? Doesn't one just feel that tingling, and think: now I HAVE to sleep with this person?"}, {"response": 214, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (09:21)", "body": "with me it only happens when I'm swimming in the river but no one else is ever around and I'm just left holding some nickel in my hand what I need is a waterproof cell phone"}, {"response": 215, "author": "terry", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (09:32)", "body": "A plastic ziplock bag might work."}, {"response": 216, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (12:12)", "body": "Or just drop the nickle into the water, and make a wish."}, {"response": 217, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (12:29)", "body": "Riette, Yes, you both know when the time is right, but the important thing to do is recognise where you are going."}, {"response": 218, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (13:43)", "body": "or at least where you are leaving..."}, {"response": 219, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (02:38)", "body": "How do you mean, Wer?"}, {"response": 220, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (22:42)", "body": "Sorry, m'dear, but I can't think it through well enough to answer."}, {"response": 221, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (02:10)", "body": "Try."}, {"response": 222, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (12:46)", "body": "I don't know how to explain my inability to explain, especially since the words that I am currently using around here aren't being taken the way that they sound in my head before I post them."}, {"response": 223, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (01:33)", "body": "You don't have to make excuses, Wer. If you're pi$$ed off, you can say so. At least we'll know where we are. I'm pi$$ed off at them moment - that doesn't mean I want our friendship to end. I'm just annoyed and disappointed, because we have somehow at some point turned into the kind of conference that tries to push new people away, instead of welcoming them. How couldd the persisting silence and occasional bitchy remarks NOT give that impression?"}, {"response": 224, "author": "wolf", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (08:40)", "body": "what? who're we pushing away riette?"}, {"response": 225, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (13:42)", "body": "Wolf, not you, But three of the males in the conference, have so irritated Riette, that she decided last night to leave the conferences for good. The ones involved, know who they are."}, {"response": 226, "author": "wolf", "date": "Sun, Dec  6, 1998 (12:06)", "body": "no no no, she can't leave us. riette, come back dear!"}, {"response": 227, "author": "infospryte", "date": "Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (15:17)", "body": "Customer Service Rep: Can you install LOVE? Customer: I can do that. I'm not very technical, but I think I am ready to install now. What do I do first? CS Rep: The first step is to open your HEART. Have you located your HEART ma'am? Customer: Yes I have, but there are several programs running right now. Is it okay to install while they are running? CS Rep: What programs are running ma'am? Customer: Let me see....I have PASTHURT.EXE, LOWESTEEM.EXE, GRUDGE.EXE, and RESENTMENT.COM running right now. CS Rep: No problem. LOVE will automatically erase PASTHURT.EXE from your current operating system. It may remain in your permanent memory, but it will no longer disrupt other programs. LOVE will eventually overwrite LOWESTEEM.EXE with a module of its own called HIGHESTEEM.EXE. However, you have to completely turn off GRUDGE.EXE and RESENTMENT.COM. Those programs prevent LOVE from being properly installed. Can you turn those off ma'am? Customer: I don't know how to turn them off. Can you tell me how? CS Rep: My pleasure. Go to your Start menu and invoke FORGIVENESS.EXE. Do this as many times as necessary until GRUDGE.EXE and RESENTMENT.COM have been completely erased. Customer: Okay, I'm done. LOVE has started installing itself automatically. Is that normal? CS Rep: Yes it is. You should receive a message that says it will reinstall for the life of your HEART. Do you see that message? Customer: Yes I do. Is it completely installed? CS Rep: Yes, but remember that you have only the base program. You need to begin connecting to other HEARTS in order to get the upgrades. Customer: Oops...I have an error message already. What should I do? CS Rep: What does the message say? Customer: It says \"ERROR 412 - PROGRAM NOT RUN ON INTERNAL COMPONENTS\". What does that mean? CS Rep: Don't worry ma'am, that's a common problem. It means that the LOVE program is set up to run on external HEARTS but has not yet been run on your HEART. It is one of those complicated programming things, but in non-technical terms it means you have to \"LOVE\" your own machine before it can \"LOVE\" others. Customer: So what should I do? CS Rep: Can you find the directory called \"SELF-ACCEPTANCE\"? Customer: Yes, I have it. CS Rep: Excellent, you are getting good at this. Customer: Thank you. CS Rep: You're welcome. Click on the following files and then copy them to the \"MYHEART\" directory: FORGIVESELF.DOC, SELFESTEEM.TXT, REALIZEWORTH.TXT, and GOODNESS.DOC. The system will overwrite any conflicting files and begin patching any faulty programming. Also, you need to delete SELFCRITIC.EXE from all directories, and then empty your recycle bin afterwards to make sure it is completely gone and never comes back. Customer: Got it. Hey! My HEART is filling up with really neat files. SMILE.MPG is playing on my monitor right now and it shows that WARMTH.COM, PEACE.EXE, and CONTENTMENT.COM are copying themselves all over my HEART! CS Rep: Then LOVE is installed and running. You should be able to handle it from here. One more thing before I go... Customer: Yes? CS Rep: LOVE is freeware. Be sure to give it and its various modules to everybody you meet. They will in turn share it with other people and they will return some really neat modules back to you. Customer: I will. Thank you for your help."}, {"response": 228, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (15:30)", "body": "...profound..."}, {"response": 229, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (15:52)", "body": "Thank you, Infospryte -- that's a keeper!"}, {"response": 230, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (18:47)", "body": "*warm smile*"}, {"response": 231, "author": "moulton", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (15:17)", "body": "I put in a request for MIND.CALM, but they shipped MIND.COM instead. It did the opposite of what I wanted. Now I can't shut the bloody thing off. It broke my HEART, so I sent away for MEND.EXE. They shipped MIND.EXE instead. Now I have two of these beasts running, one in each hemisphere. They talk to each other incessantly, overloading my Corpus Callosum. I sent away for JOY, but they sent TOY, which I've been playing with for years. Then they sent me FUN.EXE and PUN.EXE, and purposely vexed me by randomly sending out FAN.EXE and PAN.EXE to various other souls. But the worst of it is that I have this big button reading CONTROL-ALT-DELETE that a lot of people keep poking at without my consent."}, {"response": 232, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (15:40)", "body": "That sound like the story of my life... I must have a duplicate button that is being poked and I have no control over it whatsoever. Stuff like that can mess up a perfectly good life!"}, {"response": 233, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (15:46)", "body": "Y'all get Update 3.0, it's as cool as Update 2.0, but w/ more colours."}, {"response": 234, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (16:03)", "body": "Okay! ...was waiting for the 4.0 to arrive, but I will get the 3.0 till then. Had enough of the button-pushing for a lifetime. Love the idea of more colors..."}, {"response": 235, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (16:04)", "body": "...and yes, love is THAT important, since you asked in your original question."}, {"response": 236, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (16:18)", "body": "?"}, {"response": 237, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct  1, 1999 (20:07)", "body": "Read the topic heading...written by its creator..."}, {"response": 238, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Oct  2, 1999 (02:52)", "body": "But Americ asked the question! \ufffdgrin\ufffd So far I've come to the conclusion that love is important and can be ultimate - but whether it's real alot of the time?"}, {"response": 239, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sat, Oct  2, 1999 (07:58)", "body": "First I need to shut down FEAR.EXE, PARANOIA.COM, WORRY.EXE, and ANXIETY.COM."}, {"response": 240, "author": "Isabel", "date": "Sat, Oct  2, 1999 (11:32)", "body": "What to do if CONFIDENCE.EXE doesn't work safely? Might this be caused by some virus in the system?"}, {"response": 241, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Oct  2, 1999 (14:25)", "body": "Or some bug which has attacked the hard drive rendering it less efficient than it should normally be! self-esteem.exe is one of those elusive programs which must be configured out of the material at hand, and some times not all of the components are there..."}, {"response": 242, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Oct  2, 1999 (14:28)", "body": "(I know Americ asked it originally - others have made comments, and I was just throwing out my feeling about it...)"}, {"response": 243, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Oct  4, 1999 (10:46)", "body": "CONFIDENCE.EXE cannot overcome ANXIETY.COM until KNOWLEDGE.BASE and REASONING.COM have established themselves as reliable, comprehensive, and bug-free."}, {"response": 244, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Mon, Oct  4, 1999 (18:49)", "body": "ah...there is the difficulty...must be bug-free. Also important to have KNOWLEDGE.BASE protected from being overwritten by SENTIMENTALITY.NET or being nullified by SMALLBRAIN.ORG"}, {"response": 245, "author": "moulton", "date": "Mon, Oct  4, 1999 (21:51)", "body": "That bug-free bit is the killer, because CIVILITY.EXE got munged way back in the early days and has been replicated in error ever since. There have been some efforts down through the ages to fix CIVILITY.EXE, but they failed in tragic ways."}, {"response": 246, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Mon, Oct  4, 1999 (21:56)", "body": "It went the way of the Commodor 64 and other defunct things. Underuse has led to misuse then abuse. What's the use?!"}, {"response": 247, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Oct  5, 1999 (08:29)", "body": "CIVILITY.EXE, it took so long to bake it, and I'll never have that recipe again."}, {"response": 248, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Oct  5, 1999 (08:29)", "body": ""}, {"response": 249, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Oct  5, 1999 (20:09)", "body": "Alas, I am afraid it is in Pandora's Box along with hope - never to escape again."}, {"response": 250, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Oct  7, 1999 (02:11)", "body": "well. i guess it IS all hopeless, then. really."}, {"response": 251, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Oct  7, 1999 (09:02)", "body": "It is possible to reconstruct CIVILITY.EXE, but it requires the right set of tools. Hint: It requires more than a dissociated ruleset. It requires the ability to compute a model. It requires knowledge of recursion."}, {"response": 252, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Oct  7, 1999 (13:07)", "body": "...and, perhaps, the ability to tap into one's higher self."}, {"response": 253, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Oct  7, 1999 (19:30)", "body": "well then, i repeat what i said two posts ago -- it's impossible. given that i can't count the number of times you, barry, have expressed hopelessness that nobody groks recursion, and nobody understands model-based reasoning. if that's the ticket then i guess the jig is up."}, {"response": 254, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Oct  7, 1999 (20:10)", "body": "...why am I feeling a prfound sense of loss when we should be extolling the virtues of love...*sigh*"}, {"response": 255, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Fri, Oct  8, 1999 (02:33)", "body": "\"it's all right ma, i'm only dyin'....\""}, {"response": 256, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Fri, Oct  8, 1999 (04:06)", "body": "Does Dylan grok recursion or understand model-based reasoning?"}, {"response": 257, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Oct  8, 1999 (05:32)", "body": "I admire the fact that Barry has bothered to think about the things that need to change - the fact that not everybody understands recursion does not devalue it; rather it is proof of the fact that thinking, REALLY thinking about things is inconvenient for most people. It is not that people are stupid or unable to understand - it is that most people have made a conscious decision not to understand, because when we understand what needs to be changed, and how to change it, we are responsible for affecting that change. And humans are known to shun change, because it feels unsafe."}, {"response": 258, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct  8, 1999 (14:04)", "body": "Ree, what you say is true, but for some of us, we cannot stop thinking about things - really thinking and it deprives us of sleep and eventually of our normal funtioning leading to depression of the most severe sort and the wish for it all to end somehow. Just thinking can be devastating...it robs you of any joy in other things people do around you. I have seen it happen!"}, {"response": 259, "author": "moulton", "date": "Fri, Oct  8, 1999 (14:52)", "body": "Fear is well-rooted in our psyches and in our culture. To overcome fear, one must develop (or recover) the capacity for love. If fear is innate, love is a learned behavior. Fear of failure is one I've grappled with all my life. It's kept me from trying some challenges because the estimated risk of failure was too high. Last week I watched the classic movie, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. The character played by Jack Nicholson tries (and fails) to lift a heavy floor-mounted sink. At the end of the movie, another character, who feared even to speak, overcame his fear, lifted the sink off its foundations, heaved it through the barred windows, and made his escape to freedom."}, {"response": 260, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sun, Oct 10, 1999 (02:23)", "body": "The difference between Despair And Fear - is like the One Between the instant of a Wreck - And when the Wreck has been - The Mind is smooth - no Motion - Contented as the Eye Upon the Forehead of a Bust - That knows - it cannot see - --Emily Dickinson, 1861"}, {"response": 261, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Oct 10, 1999 (02:53)", "body": "...this is true, as well...but you are not alone...you have friends you have not yet met, Nan Dear...! *hugs*"}, {"response": 262, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Sun, Oct 10, 1999 (03:08)", "body": "Why are so many great poets and artist depressed, reclusive, or downright psychotic?...I think Dickinson--who was a genius--was all three."}, {"response": 263, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Oct 10, 1999 (12:58)", "body": "...Suffered for her art? I think it was her only outlet...like the Bronte sisters. The muse can be a dangerous thing to court. It takes so much of your mind and emotional well-being and tears it apart for the art rendered that it often leaves the artist in a precarious situation mentally. I know more than one person who does not dare court the muse anymore for that very reason!"}, {"response": 264, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Oct 10, 1999 (19:47)", "body": "Nan, Dear...if you would like the soft soothing warmth of fellow lost-love sufferers, please join us at http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/read/screwed/163/new We cannot bear to think of you feeling alone in the cold cruel world! *hugs*"}, {"response": 265, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Oct 14, 1999 (07:56)", "body": "Great art emerges out the the despair inherent in a culture buried under layers of violence, oppression, injustice, corruption, poverty, and ignorance."}, {"response": 266, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Thu, Oct 14, 1999 (19:18)", "body": "All those layers of shit eventually turn into compost, and beautiful things spring forth. It's the Way. Stop fighting against it..."}, {"response": 267, "author": "moulton", "date": "Tue, Oct 19, 1999 (21:21)", "body": "Moulton sings a new song... Take me for a ride in your ca-ca... Take me for a ride in your ca-ca..."}, {"response": 268, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Oct 19, 1999 (21:23)", "body": "Play nicely, please! Does not sound like love to me...! But, what does?"}, {"response": 269, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Oct 19, 1999 (21:57)", "body": "To a tulip bulb in early spring, nothing says lovin' like compost... :)"}, {"response": 270, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Oct 19, 1999 (22:12)", "body": "...all warm and lovely and squishy between the toes...!"}, {"response": 271, "author": "moulton", "date": "Thu, Oct 21, 1999 (16:50)", "body": "Oxygen is a poisonous gas produced by trees as their primary waste product."}, {"response": 272, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Fri, Oct 22, 1999 (01:30)", "body": "...and without it life of the animal kingdom as we know it would not exist. Are you alluding that one thing's poison is another's lifeblood?"}, {"response": 273, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Sat, Oct 23, 1999 (15:58)", "body": "Weeeell, we already knew that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, now we reconsider crap. What next?"}, {"response": 274, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Oct 23, 1999 (17:24)", "body": "I rather hoped we would get back to affairs of the heart and other wonderful things - which, I happen to think is THAT important...THAT real and THAT ultimate...!"}, {"response": 275, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sat, Oct 23, 1999 (22:27)", "body": "I happen to agree... then again, I also think compost is wonderful. And sunsets in New Mexico...(this photo was taken by my late brother's life companion)"}, {"response": 276, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Oct 23, 1999 (23:53)", "body": "How very lovely it is, and thank your brother and that most important individual in his life for sharing this moment with us. That is truly love...!"}, {"response": 277, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Oct 23, 1999 (23:55)", "body": "I worded that rather unfortunately...You cannot thank your brother, sadly. I shall thank you for sharing this with us...how fortunate they were to have had each other and lovely sunsets... I rather relish compost, as well. Without it we would not have very good food to eat and no mushrooms!"}, {"response": 278, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (18:32)", "body": "Mushrooms! That's right -- and I used to have a sign on my office door in grad school that said something about how I must be a mushroom, since they kept me in the dark and fed me shit... ;) Marcia, you are a kind person. I'm glad you're here. You'd have liked my brother Allyn; he was only 42 when he died. Here's how he looked when he was my baby brother."}, {"response": 279, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (18:34)", "body": "I forgot to mention that Allyn died of AIDS."}, {"response": 280, "author": "moulton", "date": "Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (19:20)", "body": "Life's detritus is often the inspirational source of great art."}, {"response": 281, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (20:09)", "body": "I beg your pardon! (Too bad good manners and sensitivty have become a lost art for some people!) Nan, it would have been my pleasure and an honor to have known your brother. How sweet he looked as your little brother! My sincerest sympathies on your terrible loss!"}, {"response": 282, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (20:13)", "body": "Barry, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming (yes, I know!) that the great art is Nan...and she thrived on the $h** they fed her!"}, {"response": 283, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (23:40)", "body": "Marcia, because I know Barry very well in real life, I know he wasn't commenting in a way meant to hurt. Thanks for giving him the benefit of the doubt. This illustrates (yet again) the limitations of text-only conversations, absent the normal clues of facial exression and tone of voice. Anyway, because this topic is LOVE and I very much loved my brother, please bear with me a bit. This is something I wrote in a word-game topic in another conferencing venue, shortly after his death. We had to write in one-syllable words -- sometimes it was hilarious, but I discovered it was also an almost poetic way to say things I couldn't otherwise speak of: --- My strength stood the hard test last week. My bro, A., died on the dawn ere New Year's Eve at his home, with those he loved by his side. I blessed him with my tears and helped him Go Home as much as I could. I am so glad he found peace, but since I took the plane back to my home I am not so numb now. I wail and keen at odd times; the pain comes out of me in gasps and screams, and fells me ere I am warned of its force. It feels like blows to my gut. At the hour of his death, as we sat in wait for the time to pass with no breath or pulse, my best friend (who knew my heart was stunned with grief) called me on the phone just to Be with me. I left the dark room where A. lay to take the call in the room where we cook, and looked out a glass door there. Dawn had put a glow in the sky of the East, and a bright star hung at the point where the glow met the black night that had rolled back... I was full of awe, and knew my bro was free at last. --- Barry was the friend who happened to call, just as Allyn breathed his last, and gave me cause to look up to the sky and see that Morning Star."}, {"response": 284, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (23:51)", "body": "That was lovely and so much more emotive for having been in the terse poetic single syllable words. Thank you so very much for sharing that with me. I know you are close to Barry and I have gotten feeling of things I shall not put here. I am glad he was there for you...it must have been incredibly difficult and profoundly sad...my heart aches anew with your grief. How lucky your brother was to have people in his life who truly loved him for being him. I am not sure I ever have... Again, thank you (as I wipe a sympathetic tear with my hand and have trouble seeing what I am writing...)"}, {"response": 285, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Mon, Oct 25, 1999 (01:38)", "body": "Ah, yes... belonging and being loved for what we are is what we all long for most, isn't it. We are each in our heart of hearts so very human, no matter how important and protected the veneer we present to the world. Thank you, Marcia, for the gift of kindness you bring to others here."}, {"response": 286, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Mon, Oct 25, 1999 (01:57)", "body": "And, thank you for your gentle nature and caring kindness, as well. You bring out the best in us, which is a wonderful gift in itself! Vulnerability is something we all try to hide but in reality we all have. Your brother having both a loving sister and a loving life mate was doubly blessed, and your sharing his life with us makes us blessed in turn. Again, thank you. *hugs*"}, {"response": 287, "author": "mrchips", "date": "Mon, Oct 25, 1999 (03:04)", "body": "Nan, I'm very sorry your brother left this realm way too young, leaving behind hurt he didn't cause in those who loved him. I'm also grateful that Barry was there for you. Although I didn't know him I could see in the eyes of the photo that he was a beautiful soul and in the sunset that he captured that his soul was that of an artist. Barry, sometimes your posts are so intellectually deep that they (unintentionally, I'm certain) hide the emotional depth that you must also possess to have Nan think so highly of you."}, {"response": 288, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (00:16)", "body": "Thank you again and still again, Marcia -- and John too. I'm nearly done telling you about Allyn, but here's one last story ."}, {"response": 289, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (00:25)", "body": "I could probably write better if I could see the monitor and the keyboard, but I am crying with you as you took me back to that day. How beautifully you wrote and how meaningful it all was. Perhaps you could print out a copy and send it skyward for him to enjoy...and I shall do so as well, so he knows someone else in the big world came to love him through his most worthy sister. Thank you for sharing..."}, {"response": 290, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (00:31)", "body": "(((((((Marcia)))))))"}, {"response": 291, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (01:04)", "body": "*HUGS* (((((((Nan))))))"}, {"response": 292, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (01:06)", "body": "(guess that was reduntant, but I did not want you to mistake my intent *smile*)"}, {"response": 293, "author": "moonbeam", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (01:09)", "body": "Oh Marcia, hugs are never redundant in my house! The more, the better. ;)"}, {"response": 294, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Tue, Oct 26, 1999 (02:06)", "body": "Oooh Lovely! That is the way I feel about them, as well. *more hugs* and *warm feelings*"}, {"response": 295, "author": "sprin5", "date": "Fri, Jan 19, 2001 (10:32)", "body": "Where's moonbeam these days?"}, {"response": 296, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Tue, Feb 27, 2001 (14:01)", "body": "Anyone around???? I need a hug"}, {"response": 297, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Thu, Jun 21, 2001 (04:37)", "body": "Nan (Moonbeam) has been in and out talking to me. She has had a rather rigurous year and I do worry about her. HUGS Maggie. For an about to be PhD, I hadly feel worthy!"}, {"response": 298, "author": "sociolingo", "date": "Sat, Jun 30, 2001 (11:00)", "body": "Don't be daft Marcia!!! Long way to go yet ... gotta make a video movie, AND finish writing! hugs philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 8, "subject": "Meaning...", "response_count": 165, "posts": [{"response": 2, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (18:51)", "body": "If by some small and tiny chance, the only reason we are here is to experience that which is in front of us. Then purpose/meaning etc.,all loose their edge. I have always noticed that each dream comes complete with everything it needs for my benefit. Perhaps the waking dream is no different. In searching for hidden meaning, we may be missing the obvious."}, {"response": 3, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (23:18)", "body": "So here we are making meaning by just living. I sometimes think that Victor Frankle was right when that we can choose to make our meaning as will. For example the meaning of my life may just be being on the internet and talking with you here."}, {"response": 5, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (11:45)", "body": "\"So here we are making meaning by choosing how we live.\" Living each moment, each meaning, each experience, one by one, one dream at a time. Just like sleeping dreams; One at a time, none of them necessarily connected, each complete with everything it needs for resolution."}, {"response": 6, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (13:16)", "body": "Yep, cyber-kid is just one of the meanings of my life. Children. Relatives, relationships, playing music, relationships, etc. Lots of things competing for attention. All seem to be part of it. But I think that we are not really grabbing this meaning thing hard enough. Sometimes you have it all, and still life can feel meaningless. We seek a deeper meaning than just the stuff and dreams of this life."}, {"response": 8, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (16:32)", "body": "\"outside of this life\" yes i don't think we can grasp \"outside of this life\" and have any need for \"meaning\" \"meaning\" and \"this life\" must be connected i think"}, {"response": 9, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (20:08)", "body": "Americ says; Sometimes you have it all, and still life can feel meaningless. We seek a deeper meaning than just the stuff and dreams of this life. When you have it all, and life is meaningless, perhaps your at that point where you need to 'dump' it all and start anew. Ooooohhhh but the ego holds on soooo tenaciously to its hard won 'assets'. Maybe you shouldn't let go Americ. Maybe you should haul all that meaningless garbage around with you. Course... If you could let go, maybe you'd be able to see your next adventure. Something deeper? Naahhh"}, {"response": 10, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (12:40)", "body": "i hold on i let go i hold on i let go every breath itself seems like this ultimate pattern which you call our attention to -- steven thank you"}, {"response": 11, "author": "ritaberry", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (13:05)", "body": "Perhaps, when 'stuff', becomes meaningless, it's an invitation by the \"greater self\" to let go again, because a new adventure is possible. Is this what Christ meant when he said, \"Give up your worldly goods and walk with me\"? It seems like the more 'stuff' I let go of, the more fun I have."}, {"response": 12, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (14:51)", "body": "Yes, the letting go can actually become a deep pleasure -- a going to a new kind of Self."}, {"response": 13, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (19:20)", "body": "And the more \"baggage\" I give up, the more fun I have!"}, {"response": 14, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (19:51)", "body": "hmmm...often seems, though, that the more fun I have, the more baggage I acquire..."}, {"response": 15, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (20:03)", "body": "or am I having the wrong kind of fun?"}, {"response": 16, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (20:39)", "body": "I don't know nick... sounds like you're having LOTS of fun!! a legitimate question though. yes, what some people term 'fun' might be detrimental to their well being in the end."}, {"response": 18, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (01:51)", "body": "guess it's sort of like some fun just LASTS longer than other types..."}, {"response": 19, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (18:55)", "body": "Ahhh, yes, it's over. But the impact remains."}, {"response": 20, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (07:00)", "body": "certainly does... (they do, i'm told, eventually graduate from college, though)"}, {"response": 21, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, Dec  9, 1997 (11:12)", "body": "Ha!"}, {"response": 22, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (23:42)", "body": "So in the end we are all dead, but between now and death we have a lot of adventures to go through."}, {"response": 24, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (19:14)", "body": "I like that Americ, it appears to my slightly sick sense of reality."}, {"response": 25, "author": "americ", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (21:28)", "body": "I used to go to graveyards to meditate. To be reminded about the ultimate fact. Thus to live more fully this present moment."}, {"response": 26, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:16)", "body": "i don't know... that could be, like st. hubbins said, a \"little too much (frigging) perspective\", americ..."}, {"response": 27, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:24)", "body": "not in the dark, Americ? The only cemetary I was glad to visit was one in Germany. Very beautiful and peaceful. It was more like a garden of real blooms rather than those K-Mart plastic specials."}, {"response": 28, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:28)", "body": "well, germans have more cemetary practice than we do..."}, {"response": 29, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:30)", "body": "hey what was that?"}, {"response": 30, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:32)", "body": "what was what? (yeah, i'm in trouble alright)"}, {"response": 31, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:34)", "body": "am gonna let that one slide, this time.........."}, {"response": 32, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:40)", "body": "let what slide? (mein fuehrer?)"}, {"response": 33, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:41)", "body": "Ah, sprechen Sie Duetsche?"}, {"response": 34, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:48)", "body": "omigod... (it is unloosed)"}, {"response": 35, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:50)", "body": "(whatever)"}, {"response": 36, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:52)", "body": "cool. (shall i report to my detention center?)"}, {"response": 37, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:53)", "body": "(why, you into crime and punishment?)"}, {"response": 38, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:59)", "body": "crime can be fun... (beginning to understand the significance of the straps)"}, {"response": 39, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (23:59)", "body": "(oh boy-i had to ask)"}, {"response": 40, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (00:06)", "body": "what does this mean? (hmmm...what does this mean?)"}, {"response": 41, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (00:08)", "body": "just what are you trying to accomplish? let's go back to the \"talk\" room... and STAY there!"}, {"response": 42, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (00:14)", "body": "why, certainly... (shall i click my heels, too?)"}, {"response": 43, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (00:14)", "body": "(smart aleck)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (10:55)", "body": "Not until fairly recently could I even calmly walk into a cemetery. Seems until I reconciled a few things concerning death (of loved ones & strangers) the stimulus was just too much -- unsavory and uncomfortable."}, {"response": 46, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (01:46)", "body": "a friend of mine who first suggested cemeteries to me pointed out that it is a great place to hang out and feel any sad feelings. you know that if you cry there, nobody is going to think your odd. crying for your personal life there is just as good as crying for the loss of a friend. and there is comfort in knowing that my own personal stuff will pass away. boy! extreme stuff. but it happens."}, {"response": 47, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:42)", "body": "I agree but usually when I walk into a cemetery, sadness is one of the emotions furthest from my mind. I am curious. I am thoughtful. But most of all I am centered."}, {"response": 49, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (11:22)", "body": "I must say, I've never gone with anyone and had a conversation. But, after a bit of consideration, I do not think I'm averse to the idea."}, {"response": 51, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (11:25)", "body": "I am glad you were able to take it as it was intended. *smile*"}, {"response": 52, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May  9, 1998 (18:43)", "body": "HELLO, Cemetary Club! What is all THIS talk?! I mean, what does a cemetary do for all you guys that a fridge doesn't do for me?! No, I suppose the reason why I don't need to visit the dead in order to cope with my life, is because I'm a happily incurable insomniac. I have all the time in the world to think deep thoughts, deal with sorrows and all that. I just love the quietness of the night; it is Daytime I can't always cope with so well. Too light, too noisy, too hectic, too impersonal."}, {"response": 53, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (01:34)", "body": "thus, the cemetery...silent and peaceful and full of nothing but reflections"}, {"response": 54, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 10, 1998 (04:12)", "body": "And people having picnics . . . thus too crowded for my taste."}, {"response": 55, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 12, 1998 (22:46)", "body": "perhaps you would like to join us... crowds rarely seem overwhelming when you are a contributing member!"}, {"response": 56, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (02:37)", "body": "HA-HA! That's a good one. Yes, for an hour or so of pleasant social discourse I could easily seek a picnic with you guys in a graveyard - as long as we can drink wine, eat strawberries with cream and smoke long cigars. But not to think deep thoughts - I'd probably burst out laughing at the drama of it. I find graveyards as ordinary as my back yard in that sense."}, {"response": 57, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (13:10)", "body": "so, what you're saying is, everyone's invited over for a picnic in your backyard?"}, {"response": 58, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 13, 1998 (13:47)", "body": "Sure. As long as you bring the strawberries and cigars - I'll provide the wine. Seems I have lured you away from that depressing place and thoughts of death . . . we're making progress. What'll it take to get a smile out of you, oh black soul?"}, {"response": 59, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (18:06)", "body": "a lick or two in the right places, I suppose!"}, {"response": 60, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, May 14, 1998 (22:29)", "body": "always works for me."}, {"response": 61, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (02:37)", "body": "I Dick or two in the right places works even better for me! Could not resist . . ."}, {"response": 62, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 15, 1998 (18:02)", "body": "not to worry Riette... we all lack typical amounts of self-control and moral obligation!"}, {"response": 63, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (02:23)", "body": "ha-ha!! So true. So, have you found the meaning yet, Stacey? Frankly, I'm not sure what to look for. Or does this have something to do with the universe and all that again - in which case I'll just shut up and sit in the corner."}, {"response": 64, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (14:09)", "body": "don't sit in the corner, we have a perfectly good couch..."}, {"response": 65, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sat, May 16, 1998 (17:33)", "body": "Do we? Does it bounce?"}, {"response": 66, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (00:24)", "body": "depends who all is on it..."}, {"response": 67, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (01:38)", "body": "\"If life had 'meaning' it would drive me crazy.\" --Mike Bryan"}, {"response": 68, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (02:08)", "body": "I agree. So what the hell are we talking about here? Why the UNmeaning of life is so pointFUL?"}, {"response": 69, "author": "autumn", "date": "Sun, May 17, 1998 (23:06)", "body": "We really need to get over it."}, {"response": 70, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (02:02)", "body": "Hmm. But why? Is that not what makes life so much fun? If there were a point to it, a meaning, then we would all know exactly what to do and where to go, and precisely what life had in store for us. Would if even be worth living with the sort of burden it would put on us? No, to search for the answers, to search for the purpose to it all is what makes us human - vulnerable, humble, THINKING creatures."}, {"response": 71, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, May 18, 1998 (18:34)", "body": "insert existentialism here."}, {"response": 72, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (02:23)", "body": "All ears . . . Feel free to continue, Stacey."}, {"response": 73, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (02:25)", "body": "Something with creating one's own values, living by them, living each moment to the full?"}, {"response": 74, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (02:25)", "body": "Something to do with, that is. Damn!"}, {"response": 75, "author": "stacey", "date": "Tue, May 19, 1998 (17:48)", "body": "existentialism actually tends toward the \"life in itself is meaningless beyond the meaning we 'inject' into it.\""}, {"response": 76, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (02:15)", "body": "Right. So there IS meaning after all. Only it kind of resembles Pamela Anderson's bosoms as far as the reality of it is concerned . . . And THAT's why she symbolizes the true meaning to so many male persons . . . Think I'm going to go commit suicide now."}, {"response": 77, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (03:11)", "body": "And just because meaning is meaningless doesn't mean life is meaningless. For example, to see a tree may be something that we can't experience as meaningful because it's just seeing. It's seeing, it's not meaning anything. But that's meaningful. To say what that means, though, is ultimately meaningless, because it's not the seeing: because the [to say] is just a bunch of meaning-making. Why is meaning meaningless? Because it's somehow irrelevant to the realness of living life. In fact, it gets in the way, if living life is being in direct contact, like truly seeing. I have no idea what I just said. And I hope y'all don't either.....it means nothing. A vagrant just stole my mind. Won't give it back. He walked off and is entering a bullfight with a box kite....the sight of him is getting more and more pointtillist and elongated, the further he moves off from me."}, {"response": 78, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (06:10)", "body": "Don't recall having seen you here before, Le Pleppa Plep . . . Are you new here, or haven't you been for a long time? Whatever the case, the things you say seem to make more sense than your name! Mine is Riette - yeah, I know! And I didn't even make it up! Hope you stay."}, {"response": 79, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (06:26)", "body": "Newbie. I'll stay....less I get into one'a those kiddy cars tomorrow. I sorta shy, in some ways....in some ways that sorta crest over and around the protocols. Fer that I would like to say I'm sorry in advance. Don't hardly mean no harm by it. Jest is me is all...tiz the way I am. Born wrong, fell on m'noggin real real early or somethin'."}, {"response": 80, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (11:44)", "body": "Wait a second . . . where are you from?? You're not in America, are you? Are you English or Scoattish or Oi-rish? From your response I shall place my bet on . . . say, north of England, or even Northumberland? Turn the accent on a little sharper, so I can hear better. Or have I got it all wrong? Well, nevermind. So what is the meaning in your life? Besides looking at trees, that is."}, {"response": 81, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (14:16)", "body": "Gotta admit, and I tremble as I say this, there stands a fine tall tree just 15 feet outside my tiny hovel's one and only door (which is like bathroom door-size). The doggone hovel lies promiscuously in Austin.....and I think Austin lies alot, and when it does, if I not mistaken, it lies somewhere in Texass. Meaning can be pretty mean to me sometimes. I try to calm it down some, so it can relax into a warm lone silhouette of a quiet lender of the soothing and tender. Yeah, it's emotion that keeps drawing me in. The emotion in reaction. That part of life, or my life, is what has me wondering the most, I think. Meaning what, I wonder? Wonder, think, emote.....got caught in my throat. Wanted to come to the surface and barely float in this silly post I just wrote. Sorry."}, {"response": 82, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (15:11)", "body": "Sorry to interrupt and all, but if I had to put the meaning of life into my own words, it would be: To accept and fulfill, to the best of your ability, your responsibilities. That's it. No more, no less."}, {"response": 83, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (15:47)", "body": "And with that he reminds everyone that they really have nothing to live for . . . Bloody hell, you get more depressing by the day! That's not meaning, that's P.T. - physical torture. How can there be any joy in meaning if it is only about fulfilling abilities and responsibilities and all that? I see those two things as important, certainly, my duty to myself, but not the ultimate Meaning of my life. (Far too irresponsible, I suspect.) To have only my few talents and alot of responsibilities to live for, would make me the most depressed person in the world, I think. The meaning lies in pain, but also in the pleasure. The pain helps us appreciate the pleasure, and the pleasure makes it all worth while. One must just go ahead and TAKE the pleasure out of life. One of the things that help me get up on a morning, is the hope that my day will bring not only rushing around and irritation, but amusement and fun while doing the things I have to do. Yeah, I know, it sounds a little like I'm hitting you over the head with a 'Get Well Soon' card! Ha-ha! But are you always this black mooded? You sound so afraid of happiness, somehow. Why?"}, {"response": 84, "author": "stacey", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (16:40)", "body": "not afraid of happiness... afraid of wanting happiness, of desiring what you want to deserve... and being let down. For some it is easier to lessen the expectations than bolster the spirit. and a lot less painful. Leplep... I'm glad you're here. You make me laugh and (inconsistently of course) make me think."}, {"response": 85, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (22:55)", "body": "Riette, you said, \"One of the things that help me get up on a morning, is the hope that my day will bring not only rushing around and irritation, but amusement and fun while doing the things I have to do.\" Right, taking care of your responsibilities. The manner in which you choose to do so, I did not address as that is a matter of personal choice and irrelevant to the basic statement that I made. Nothing in the statement I made is depressing, you added that sentiment to it when you over layed your world view onto what I said. All I did was reduce my personal meaning of life to its most basic feature, and stated it in my words, as you have asked me to do. Your response is why I sometimes choose to either be silent at times or depends upon another's words. When I state what I feel, I am usually told that I am wrong, or that I need to seek counseling because I am too depressed, or that I need to do this or that to become more than I am because it is apparently impossible for me to be accepted by anyone for who I am. If I am not me, then a) who the hell am I? and b) who the hell am I supposed to be so that I am me? So, as you can see, after awhile all of this gets to be very tiring and disheartening, so once again and with a different set of people, I allow only parts of me to surface and am never completely myself. as to being afraid of happiness and/or of wanting happiness, I am neither. Happiness is not my natural low energy state, and most times I do not have the extra energy for that particular self-delusion. This does not mean that I am necessarily unhappy, however, as one can be content (sometimes judged (and sometimes rightly so) as being complacent) without the extreme of happiness"}, {"response": 86, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Wed, May 20, 1998 (23:33)", "body": "I'm glad you're here Stacey. I almost can't believe you are. This is blushingly embarrassing to say (please don't read this part) but you had become the heart of what Spring.net came to mean to me. I really shouldn't have said that. The real heart of spring is probably Terry Paul: his spirit certainly has incredible generosity and energy and vision, initiative. I know I know I know: the real heart of spring is everyone who partakes. But I like how you compose yourself, Stacey, and how you bring reliable balance that touches, and hugely topnotch pinpoint humor. You steadied me (and I'd only been a reader of so many of those posts you contributed since you came on, as I've read back over them). And Wer, you've got such a powerful ingenuity....your wherewithal is enormous.... I mean I am staggered by it and by the knockout strength of your humor....[and, yeah, I know, you can make a lotta fun outa the word 'wherewithal' here]. I relish that repartee that goes on with y'all and Wolf and Autumn, in other topics. Nick I definitely like to pay close attention to. Paula's poetry goes way way way into me. Spring.com is a rave. So many other people here make it great. Fun to see what was going on in 1994. Man! By the way, I was liking to think that Wer could, not that he would, feel that a responsibility he has is to die to everything every day so he can see things as they are without distortion, thereby making contact with life where it is, beyond meaning, and where it is the source of all meaning, all everything, all creation, all love. Don't y'all think Wer is all love? I went to church last sunday....and, uh, church was at the bottom of the Colorado River, and who but who did I see down there along the river bottom, no less, and leading the congregation, at that!!??? WER! He was like blowing bubbles, I think, and each bubble had the word 'love' just whooshing around inside it. I guess love makes the bubble go 'round, I thought as I came up from the deep (almost drowned). I mean Wer wasn't explicit at all about what he felt his responsibilities actually are, so I thought I'd take a crack at it. One never know, do one? 'Course anyone should know better than to go speakin' for Wer. Wonder if I'll be allowed to live another day......"}, {"response": 87, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (00:10)", "body": "I did #86 before reading wer's #85. It's refreshing to hear you elaborate on what you mean, Wer. It's also refreshing to hear you react to what you react to, Riette, Stacey. Interesting how each post made sense on its own terms, quite a bit of sense. Now we intuit this little bit more: of how feelings are affected in ways we hadn't intended, and what those expressed feelings (anyone of ours) tell of what's going on in our inner worlds. It's good. Learning. I respect each of you much more than a whole lot. I respect how this here post of mine can strike any of you as too assuaging, too pacifying....to the detriment of truth and meaning....your meanings. My goof, then."}, {"response": 88, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (01:58)", "body": "WER, I am really sorry if that is the way I make you feel. I think that perhaps we just touch a wrong nerve with each other, and for that I apologize. But I do respect you a hell of a lot. Just thought I'd say it. The reason why you touch a wrong nerve with me, I think, is because you are so unbearably realistic - it depresses me, and therefore I probably project it onto you. And then I say the wrong things that touch a wrong nerve in you again, because you can probably not bear my senseless prattling either, and so on. Perhaps we should stop that from happening by using some sort of a stopper. If I don't like something you have said, I shall simply write CORK Just that. No need for elaboration, or animosity. And you can write BUGGER OFF or something like that, and perhaps we'll get on better. I don't just respond ne- gatively to you though, do I? We do have a bit of fun in one of the other conferences too . . ."}, {"response": 89, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (02:27)", "body": "so be it then, truce... (and, yes, we do...)"}, {"response": 90, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (02:44)", "body": "back to the happiness... Anyone read \"Johnny Got His Gun\"? when I do give up and reach for happiness, whose version should I strive for? this is where the selfishness topic came from everytime that I have gone for my version, the resulting pain of those involved, either directly or indirectly, has far outweighed any momentary bliss that I might have received in my moment of selfishness...and yet, when I am not selfish and give in to another's wants, similar pain is the end result also...so, again, am I afraid? no, it just seems a waste of energy to me to force oneself (good or bad) to the extreme of happiness and as for the pain, a good dose of physical pain applied correctly in the right mood is quite an effective stimulant and/or mood stabilizer, but the anguish of emotional pain is as draining an extreme as utopian happiness...there, you have the basis for my black soul and the moods to go with it, although those are also based on dietary imbalances as well"}, {"response": 91, "author": "SKAT", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (03:11)", "body": "Don't you think that you perhaps expect a bit too much, when you let yourself in for happiness? And that therefore you always get dissappointed? You mustn't try to rationalize it so much. Don't go for one version or the other - go for grey. Expect both happiness and sorrow, don't give in completely, but be willing to bend a little, don't let your fear of getting hurt suppress the good things about you. Just say things as they are right from the beginning. If you're afraid, then say so, because often fear can come across as agression and apprehension, and the other person will never even know that you were merely feeling vulnerable. I mean, one can't always just 'pick up' everything about another person, can one? If you say from the beginning, look, this and this are the things I'm afraid of, and these are the things that make me feel insecure, the other person will either accept it, or drop you there and then - before too much harm is done. And you musn't FORCE yourself to anything! If I thought for one moment that a person was with me, because he forced himself to be with me, I'd tell him to . . . reciprocate himself in hell! Here on the spring you come across as someone with an extremely ironic twist of mind, yet also someone with a certain amount of insight, feministic tendencies, but also as a sensitive sort of person. Which of those sides do you allow to reveal themselves when you really care for someone?"}, {"response": 92, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (03:25)", "body": "I do that, Riette, and the other person doesn't believe me. What then? They get upset because they don't understand how anyone can be/think that way, and get mad at me because I reacted the way I told them that I would. Then I go off because I told them what to expect, and they chose to believe what they wanted to anyway. I am then called childish for my behavior, and I often wonder if self awareness is but a crutch to use to avoid evolving... sorrow is a given, happiness isn't I show all sides, but from the outside I probably have a tendency to dwell on the why can't this be a compromise, why am I the one who has to change part of my insecurities and tend to come across as somewhat selfish and insensitive at times, as well"}, {"response": 93, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (03:26)", "body": "and as for going for the grey, that was my point about being content instead of going for the extreme of happiness"}, {"response": 94, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (04:19)", "body": "my needs, and the needs of others, are almost always prioritized over my wants, and that is usually okay by me because my \"reward\" is knowing that I was able to help and was there when someone needed me to be there, sometimes however it gets very old always taking care of others and having one's own needs to meet instead of being able to be selfish and irresponsible and getting what one wants, as trivial as it may be at times"}, {"response": 95, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (05:07)", "body": "I always wonder why was I so scared or hurt or in pain or in love. Why couldn't I have been untouched? It's what I wonder about because, see, I keep thinking that if I wasn't dysfunctional, I could feel what I feel, but it wouldn't throw me so much for a loop. If love were unconditional, it would be just happening easily with everything I come in contact with. Like even with pain and hurt and fear: I would love unconditionally my pain, hurt, fear. It would work like this, in a non-dysfunctional way: I would, without force or even the least little bit of effort, move in so near to the fear, the hurt, that the honest actual psychological facts would then be near and clear, and I can face them and what they mean.....their living meaning and how they seem to play out on a moment to moment basis throughout my day. Can I feel and see these facts if I've become used to them and habituated to them? No, that's how I become dull. I must love these facts about myself, without putting a 'must' in there in my mind, and without facing the facts through the screen of my image of myself, or the screen of words and explanations and rationalizations. Meaning doesn't have so very much of a chance unless my mind, on its own, comes to a stop, goes quiet, and listens in with love to the pain, and not in order to understand it---because that would be creating a motive....in other words: a screen through which it is impossible to perceive the truth in the meaning of the psychological facts of what and how my me goes on about itself through life. Love is so unconditional that it can and does love everything, even our worst discomfort. And seeing with the eyes (heart) of love brings us near enough to suffering, sorrow, pain, fear, to enable us to feel our way into what's actually going on there, understand it, and begin to live in a fuller expansiveness, openness to where meaning unravels, unfolds its beauty, its truth, its intensity, its realness. I was afraid tonight when I saw your post, Wer. I ran from it (the fear I felt). Yep. Sure did. Your post, and what you felt and said, wasn't wrong. Riette wasn't wrong. Stacey not wrong. My running from fear wasn't wrong. It just happened. Those are facts. If I can't face those facts, well, it's not that that's wrong. Wrong gets in the way of facing. It prevents me from moving in near enough for genuine, effortless learning. That's the meaning of love. Love ain't what we ever thought it was. Love isn't positive. It's not a word. It's much more real and totally different from positive. Happiness can only be a result. If it's ever strived for, it's killed, instantly. And please regard the above as further rantings of a moron in need of a knuckle sandwich. I shoulda stayed down there at the bottom of the Colorado. Sorry for passing this junk off on ya jez cuz I happened to need a fix, poor readers of this germ sqirm of words. T'weren't meant for human eyes. Uggghh."}, {"response": 96, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (21:36)", "body": "LePlep (BTW, are you French? ha ha), you are a breath of fresh air with your stream-of-consciousness approach to life. Welcome to the spring!"}, {"response": 97, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (22:59)", "body": "Autumn talking about Spring. You're wonderful. When your leaves turn colors, time stands still and snows premature seconds of sweet cool agonizing ecstacy. I am most honored indeed to make of your acquaintance. I've read you like a book (various other postings you've done that took me by surprise by delight and had me hooked) and I'll try not to forget or overlook that this might sound to you like insincere flattery coming from a dead battery but it's not, and I'm not trying to be a schnook ---By the way, I'm so out of it....I mean I don't know what any of these things mean: BTW, IMHO, LOL, ROFLMAO, TTFN --I can imagine how ignorant you must now think I am, but hey...it's true, I'm pretty naive and stuff ....even so, it feels really nice to be welcomed by you. Thank ya, Autumn. And you really are statuesque? That alone makes my wrists shiver and my thoughtstreams quiver Oops gotta go, there's another dodge ball rippin' thru the air at my head --gee, wonder what the meaning of that really means if the meaning were really dodgy"}, {"response": 98, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (23:05)", "body": "By The Way In My Humble Opininion Laughing Out Loud Rolling On Floor Lauging My Ass Off Ta Ta For Now and yes, Leplep, welcome, and forgive my tardiness in responding specifically to your presence"}, {"response": 99, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (23:33)", "body": "Thanks alot, wer. What a revelation. I'll just go right ahead and print that out, tape it to my monitor under a picture of a tall chef --maybe by autumn I'll have these codes memorized. I really like you... your acumen is, whew, i dunno what....Redoubtable --when i read things you say, something shifts inside I think to myself: here it comes...a super-direct take on what's goin' on --it's like nothing I've encountered before BDIFHIYPLW......(boy, do i feel humble in your presence....later, wer)"}, {"response": 100, "author": "autumn", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (23:35)", "body": "Oooh, beware of the doggerel! (*beaming*)"}, {"response": 101, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, May 21, 1998 (23:44)", "body": "Quite a lot hath transpired in a mere 24 hours. Truly wish for a group hug. Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to why we as a whole seem to mesh so swell. not perfectly, not seamlessly, but so well? It reminds me of our love question... what is the attraction. Ours is obviously not physical (or have I just missed to much by telneting??) attraction. And the apparent 'safety of anonimity' is a ruse because if we have revealed anything to one another, we have revealed our true thoughts, questions and in some cases... fears. WFAAILYA(u?) -- warm fuzzies all around I love you all (unconditionally?) *smile*"}, {"response": 102, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (00:31)", "body": "roflmpaiuu (rolling on floor laughing my philosophical ass into ultimate understanding)"}, {"response": 103, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (01:04)", "body": "hey, does that doggerel bite harder than I bark?"}, {"response": 104, "author": "autumn", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (01:14)", "body": "Good question, wer...time will tell... Stacey, I think you're right, we all deserve each other! LOLYOTVOFAATK (laughing out loud yet on the verge of falling asleep at the keyboard)"}, {"response": 105, "author": "jgross5", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (01:33)", "body": ".....and then along came post 101..... I feel like one of those 9 kids in your class. The stuff you teach in your posts so often it's about how to get along with real glee --not how to get along in an instructional sense --but just how to do it by doing it yourself I'd totally undergo a seizure of disbelief if any of your students, when they reach their nineties and are lying there on their beds, as their lives are about to close and are asked by their great-great-grandkids if they can remember any teachers that they ever had that they liked and they say anything else but something like: well, Mildred, I mean Lucy, I'm sorry darlin', what's yer name again? oh, Oota? so it is....yes, well, Oota my memory can't get it goin' so good anymore but one teacher stands way way WAY out I had her in third grade, some 85 years ago aughhh, you're making me cry, now, Oota I'm really glad you asked me that it turns out to be a most beautiful question this teacher I could only wish upon you I wish you could have had her for a whole year like me she just did the impossible, that's all, day after day \"whatdaya mean, great-great-grandaddy?\" oh Oota, dearie, I had many dark and threatening clouds running me down....it was a life you won't have to have, yourself, hon' I needed an anchor, a patch of hope or I probably would've been eaten on the spot by my own dreaded, mixed-up despair and anger and personal demons I felt left out in the cold by what had been happening to me, you see and she was there in the middle of all that she was there in the room with me and the others she was there for me I found out that I was actually an okay person Oota, do you know what that can mean if it hadn't occurred to you? it's so bewilderingly uplifting it just makes you dumbfoundedly grateful you get to have your heart back and your heart drives over to your soul and asks it if it wants a lift anywhere my soul jumped right in and said, \"hey, let's go all the way to the end of our lives\" heart said, \"no problemo, I know the way now\" I gotta tell ya something else, too, Oota there were a few of us who really knew how to get teach goin' we would do somethin, whatever it was, and she'd crack up then she had this lightning quick ability to crack us all up right back and I mean time after time after time it could go on and on this was the purest fun that ever came my way and Oota, something else....Oota.... \"yes, grandda.....granddad?....granddaddy?....\" just a few moments later: \"Mom, granddad's eyes closed he stopped breathing...... Mom....he had this.....a smile....he had this gentle smile, Mom\""}, {"response": 106, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (01:58)", "body": "amen"}, {"response": 107, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, May 22, 1998 (16:34)", "body": "the meaning I find and hope to continue finding in my job is to have an impact even a fraction of what you just described. thank you."}, {"response": 108, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (08:33)", "body": "WER, finally I get a chance to respond to the things you said earlier. I am sorry. I was wrong about you. I honestly thought you were this man who always wore a white hat, smoked alot of cigars every day, which he smelled of, and spent his nights in front of the computer with only virtual reality to keep him company, and not being able to find someone willing to counsel him. No, please don't laugh or get angry. It's just the way it was - I don't know why. But this week you were very different, so kind, and trying to help me, even though you don't like me much and all th t. You are really alot more sensitive than I thought, and not a control freak, and therefore my response was wrong too. I don't know what kind of women you've been dating, but you must find a different type altogether. Some people see the compromises that their partners are willing to make for them as a kind of submission, and see it as their right to control the other person. It's wrong and selfish. I think it is quite rare to find someone with whom, and who will want to be one's equal. That's the problem with love and relationships and all that. People take advantage of one another far too easily. It is a shame, b cause being another person's equal is so much more exciting and stimulating than standing above them. There is just so much more interaction, so much energy, and, oh, just so much more going on on the whole. Those who fancy control and the false sense of power and security it creates, will always be unhappy - because just taking or just giving is no fun - and deep down he/she will know that they will never truly be esteemed and loved for what they are."}, {"response": 109, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (10:02)", "body": "(the control freak thing, at times, is a very correct summation)"}, {"response": 110, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (13:49)", "body": "And now you have control over my user name . . . the very thought is making me tremble. Does that mean I have to be nice to you from now on?"}, {"response": 111, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, May 27, 1998 (13:49)", "body": "nope, go to http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/userinfo and change your password"}, {"response": 112, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (02:18)", "body": "Nah . . . I can handle you, I think. And besides, I like being so close to you . . . all those knives and forks rattling away as you speak - it gives a strangely musical ring to your voice . . ."}, {"response": 113, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (17:51)", "body": "that's because you're in Switzerland and aren't getting all the volume..."}, {"response": 114, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (19:02)", "body": "Oh. Must've been a cow bell I heard then. Sorry."}, {"response": 115, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (19:10)", "body": "no need to be... so, where should this here conversation go now?"}, {"response": 116, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (19:14)", "body": "Let me think - this conversation, you mean, or should be stick to one conference, 'cos this is getting confusing!"}, {"response": 117, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (19:22)", "body": "this conversation in this topic... (and, actually, I need to run, see ya later)"}, {"response": 118, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, May 28, 1998 (19:23)", "body": "Bye."}, {"response": 119, "author": "stacey", "date": "Sat, May 30, 1998 (19:52)", "body": "and the meaning in all this... or perhaps we could really stir up the mix and discuss 'hidden' meaning. Oh shit! Here come the worms!!!!!"}, {"response": 120, "author": "riette", "date": "Sun, May 31, 1998 (04:38)", "body": "Catch them and use them for bait next time you go fishing. The meaning? Bullshit is what makes the world go round?"}, {"response": 121, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (22:10)", "body": "Or at least the world seems to run on it. If it doesn't make the world go round then it's the primary lubricant on the gears. There is so much of it produced, It has to be good for something."}, {"response": 122, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (02:26)", "body": "What gives meaning to your life, Tim?"}, {"response": 123, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (02:54)", "body": "My friends and my religion. How about you, riette?"}, {"response": 124, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (08:39)", "body": "Family, dreams, the idea that there's still more to see and do, and other spiritual feelings. I am not religious in the concrete sense - but I think alot about spiritual things too. Like where I come from where I'll be going after this, and what and who God is. Are you Catholic?"}, {"response": 125, "author": "jgross", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:39)", "body": "No I'm not Catholic at all. I'm religious in the concrete sense only. I helped Katie lay a slab of cement in the backyard where she's living. It's gonna be the foundation for her to do welding. She creates unusual-looking objects. I believe they call it art or something. But I haven't seen the slab since it was cement. Maybe it's concrete by now. It's been more than a week. I think I'll venture over there by way of a weeklong pilgrimage. I'll tiptoe the whole way, since it's only a couple miles. The slab is sacred. Intuitively I can already sense the visions I'll have when I arrive there will be holy and abundant."}, {"response": 126, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:45)", "body": "I was born and raised Catholic. Attended catholic schools until college. Then I Started looking at the history of the Catholic Church and found that their teachings fly in the face of their history. I now attend the church of Christ. Each congregation is autonomous. There is no hierarchy. Our congregation is wealthy, by this I mean we take in many thousand more than we need in contributions. so we support missionaries. Currently we have two churches in Russia, one in Italy, two on Indian reservations in this country, and one in New Zealand. Our weekly contribution averages ten thousand dollars. and we only have 600 members."}, {"response": 127, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (02:32)", "body": "That's pretty impressive! I knew you were Catholic though! Hence the many many many siblings!"}, {"response": 128, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (02:41)", "body": "Everybody says that. My godparents only had one child, and they were catholic. admittedly they were the exception to the rule. Right now, at afamily reunion, limited to first cousins and their children and parents, we have over 300 people"}, {"response": 129, "author": "jgross", "date": "Tue, Nov 24, 1998 (12:53)", "body": "I was the youngest there"}, {"response": 130, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (02:45)", "body": "But wouldn't have been, had your answering maching been there too."}, {"response": 131, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (11:07)", "body": "and they had said I could bring \"somebody\". I'm so self-centered. Didn't even think to ask it."}, {"response": 132, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (12:13)", "body": "You'd have to buy it flowers. Is it male or female?"}, {"response": 133, "author": "jgross", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (12:30)", "body": "it's not even hermaphrodite.....it's an it. it turns off when I try to leave flowery messages."}, {"response": 134, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Wed, Nov 25, 1998 (16:47)", "body": "I personally hate when that happens..."}, {"response": 135, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (02:03)", "body": "Buy whoever you are trying to reach, a new answering machine for Christmas."}, {"response": 136, "author": "riette", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (07:25)", "body": "He's trying to reach THIS answering machine! He's in love with it, you see. I don't think trading it for another is going to make it any happier though!"}, {"response": 137, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Nov 26, 1998 (22:38)", "body": "True, Riette, But if he trades for the one he wants. then he'll have it. It will be his alone to do with as he wishes."}, {"response": 138, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (02:23)", "body": "PLUS it would have more buttons!"}, {"response": 139, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (02:24)", "body": "And many different kinds of squeaks!"}, {"response": 140, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (02:30)", "body": "And, he could make music with it."}, {"response": 141, "author": "riette", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (16:34)", "body": "The perfect partner! Why don't all people not do that? He is just so way ahead of us!"}, {"response": 142, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Nov 27, 1998 (16:53)", "body": "Riette, I definitely prefer the situation that I'm in right now."}, {"response": 143, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (01:56)", "body": "You mean you're having a relationship with your hi-fi???"}, {"response": 144, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (02:15)", "body": "Well, Riette, If I have to depend on a Hi-Fi, I'm in trouble. Because I don't have one."}, {"response": 145, "author": "riette", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (16:02)", "body": "Master Blaster then - whatever that word is you use! It doesn't matter. But have you given her a name? Like 'Melody'? 'Cos she lingers on...."}, {"response": 146, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sat, Nov 28, 1998 (16:08)", "body": "Perhaps, Riette, you meant boom box. And it is definitely not a woman, because..."}, {"response": 147, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:36)", "body": "You mean it has a THING sticking out somewhere to make it male? WHERE?"}, {"response": 148, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:42)", "body": "Riette, have you ever seen a collapsible antenna?"}, {"response": 149, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:42)", "body": "I see one every night, and every morning."}, {"response": 150, "author": "riette", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:42)", "body": "It receives, then collapses! Isn't that how they all work??"}, {"response": 151, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Nov 30, 1998 (02:42)", "body": "Well Riette, you understand the principle then!"}, {"response": 152, "author": "riette", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (02:40)", "body": "Do you know what that means, Tim? You have a gay radio fetish!"}, {"response": 153, "author": "TIM", "date": "Tue, Dec  1, 1998 (02:45)", "body": "Riette, I've heard of quantum leaps before, but that takes the cake. Explain, please."}, {"response": 154, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (02:13)", "body": "I asked you if you had any particular fancy for telephone answering machines too? You said no. So asked about your Master Blaster, and whether you were in love with her too. You said, yes, except she's not a she. And I asked, 'huh'? So you said your Master Blaster is really a boom box, and has a collapsible antenna - which makes him male, right? Because all males have the collapsible antenna thing. So: if your Master Blaster is really a boom box, and male, then you're in love with a gay radio! See? It makes perfect sense!"}, {"response": 155, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (02:30)", "body": "Riette, that is what I get for not reading the responses through"}, {"response": 156, "author": "riette", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (12:29)", "body": "No, it's too late for excuses, Tim - I know what you did last night!"}, {"response": 157, "author": "TIM", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (12:52)", "body": "So Riette, What little bird is talking to you?"}, {"response": 158, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Wed, Dec  2, 1998 (15:58)", "body": "off subject, tim, but do you mean the church of christ that one can find in practically any small town in texas? or is your church independent from that?"}, {"response": 159, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (07:02)", "body": "did i say something wrong?"}, {"response": 160, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (13:47)", "body": "Slightly, Nick, There is no central hierarchy in the church of christ. Every church is governed by it's elders. No two are the same."}, {"response": 161, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (16:19)", "body": "thanks... but can you explain? did you think i was taking a shot at the church of christ? (i wasn't)... was only trying to figure out if you were referring to the church i was familiar with, or some same-named church (i have heard tell of them) with no connection at all... and it was interesting to me mainly because i was raised in the church of christ (which, again, should be regarded as no reflection upon the church)... interesting too because a recent period of church-lessness caused me to re-evaluate my old church, or the several of them, as well as my beliefs as a christian... and i was curious... anyway, if you did believe i was somehow denigrating the church or your choice of it or whatever, i do apologize... as i said, was not my intention at all..."}, {"response": 162, "author": "TIM", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (17:26)", "body": "Actually, It's my belief's that I was a little sensitive about. In these conferences, I have been put in the position of defending some really off the wall stuff, simply because whoever replied after me had a pet peave about how I expressed myself. I do not want to be put in that position again. so, when a male that I don't know asks a question about something that I'm not discussing at the time, I just ignore it. If a woman does the same thing I'll reply. The women in these conferences aren't into head games the way that some of the guys are."}, {"response": 163, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Thu, Dec  3, 1998 (22:56)", "body": "i understand (i think)... i'll always have a place in my heart for the church of christ... from my experience growing up, i have nothing but positive feelings... the thing you always hear (from others when they find out that you belong) is the thing about no musical instrumentation (which was true in each of the churches i attended)... and the thing about the exclusivity of church-of-christers among the saved (which, as far as i can tell, has no root in reality at all, cause i never heard a single word about it during all those years)... did try, a year or so ago, to attend my old church (in cherokee, ever hear of it?)... but just outside the front door, just before i entered, i heard a bit of what the minister was talking about, and i sort of stopped in my tracks, and listened a bit... the entire sermon concerned homosexuals, and the tone of the minister (a man i did, and do not know) was stern, hostile even... the words made me blanch- won't relate any of it here, but it disturbed me enough to cause me to turn around and leave... my children were with me, too, and i certainly didn't want them to hear any more of what was being said... afterwards, reflecting upon it, i was a little puzzled by precisely what it was that had troubled me so... after all, i'm a liberal commie-type living in rural central texas... i'm quite accustomed to hearing points of view that i don't agree with, and have learned it best usually just to keep my peace, let it roll, whatever... but this really bothered me, and i guess the thing is, the guy was biblically basically sound in what he was saying... and that realization sort of shook my world, cause there was no way i could see to reconcile these two things that i knew to be true (or thought i did)... wasn't exactly what i would call a crisis of faith, but it was something of a reminder to me of my terribly inept powers of comprehension... have yet to resolve this within myself... (does this make any sense at all?)"}, {"response": 164, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (00:49)", "body": "Yes, it does, by taking words out of context, the bible can be used to justify anything. The bible does teach against homosexuality, but it does not rank it any worse than heterosexual promiscuity. The one is held to be equally as bad as the other. Also,(MAJOR POINT HERE) these teachings are in the old testament. The old covenant was done away with when Jesus died. A true Christian cannot hold a violation of old covenant laws against another. For that matter the Bible teaches the opposite. The Bible teaches tolerance. The new testament of the Bible says that we are all sinners, and all EQUAL in the eyes of god, no matter what the sin."}, {"response": 165, "author": "jgross", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (02:40)", "body": "Tim, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that the Old Testament regards homosexuality as a sin? And the new testament, do you feel it also regards homosexuality as a sin? Is there anything in the new testament that you disagree with? Are you okay with me asking you these things?"}, {"response": 166, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:33)", "body": "i've always viewed the sermon on the mount as a pivotal point in \"changing\" between the beliefs of the old and new testaments."}, {"response": 167, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:33)", "body": "i agree regarding the distinction between old and new covenants (as well as the pivotal nature of the sermon on the mount in the understanding of it) don't think there's any doubt that according to the old testament, homosexuality is a sin (along with multitudes of other things)... in the new testament, 'sodomy' is listed as a sin (by paul) a couple of times, this definition presumeably inclusive of behaviors indulged in by heterosexuals as well... as well as 'effeminacy' (by paul again)... it may be instructive to note that paul also said something like, as christ was the head of man, man was the head of woman... that a woman could only rightly pray with her head covered, but that man needn't bother, because he (man) is the 'image and glory' of god... whereas, woman is merely the glory of man... neither of these beliefs is advanced in any way by the reported words of christ himself... so far as i know, christ never made mention of sodomy or homosexuality at all, and only mentioned the story of sodom in reference to other ideas... i think this is significant, because- logically- the most reliable words are those attributed to him... there has been much discussion re: the reasons for great similarities found in the synoptic gospels, originating as each did from geographically different areas, and containing enough deviations in each to make one being source for the others problematic... one explanation is the former existence of a 'Q' gospel, upon which all three were derived... another, more plausible to me, is that the words attributed to christ were by his express desire committed to memory by his followers... while the authorship of each document is open to question, i think it doubtful to the point of absurdity to conclude that eyewitnesses did not have at least some hand in their creation... therefore, when these books were, after the passing of some 30, 40, and 50 years, finally committed to written form they contained those particular synoptic qualities, christ's words... and this is important, especially from the point of view i allude to, because, no doubt, he would've been circumspect concerning which of his words posterity would remember... that he didn't speak of these issues at all rather disempowers those who later did (and do), or so at least is my hope... read that thomas jefferson actually cut christ's words from his bible, and assembled them together, pasted upon blank pages... this, he said, was his bible... ."}, {"response": 168, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:33)", "body": "That is pretty much the way I see it."}, {"response": 169, "author": "TIM", "date": "Fri, Dec  4, 1998 (15:33)", "body": "Jesus came up with two commandments to avoid sin. \"LOVE GOD\" \"LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF\" And that's all folks........."}, {"response": 170, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (20:05)", "body": "I like the second one, I'm not so sure about the first"}, {"response": 171, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sat, Feb  5, 2000 (22:09)", "body": "Having just read this topic for the first time, my understanding has been confirmed by words written by others. I knew that and I hope I conveyed the fact that I did understand."}, {"response": 172, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Sun, Feb  6, 2000 (16:57)", "body": "This is long, but really worth the reading... America's Thanksgiving holiday originated when the Pilgrims gave thanks to God for sending them an Indian friend named Squanto. This much you already knew. What you didn't know is that long before the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock, this same Squanto had been captured by two English sea captains, George Weymouth and John Hunt, and abused as a slave for fourteen years. Squanto had been free less than five years when Capt. John Bradford's Pilgrims arrived on the good ship Mayflower. Squanto had every reason to organize a killing party and wipe out the pale-skinned invaders, but he chose to help them instead. Gazing with pity at Bradford's pathetic band of would-be settlers as they huddled around Plymouth Rock, Squanto thought, \"If I don't help these silly white men, they're all going to die in the coming winter.\" And with that, he walked out of the woods and introduced himself. Squanto died two years later of a disease contracted from these same Europeans. When I was a boy, all the movies were about heroic cowboys and evil Indians. And in virtually every one of them, courageous settlers had to circle the wagons to defend themselves against unprovoked attacks from ape-like Indians who said things like, \"Ugh. Me want'um whiskey.\" Would you like to know how Indians actually spoke back then? Consider the musings of Ispwo Mukika Crowfoot, a Blackfoot Indian who was twenty years old in 1803, the year that Lewis and Clark launched their famous expedition. As he lay dying, Ispwo left us with these last words: \"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset.\" Was Ispwo Crowfoot a particularly eloquent Indian? Not at all. Fifty- nine years earlier, when George Washington was just a twelve-year-old boy, the Collected Chiefs of the Indian Nations met to discuss a letter from the College of William & Mary suggesting that they \"send twelve of their young men to the college, that they might be taught to read and write.\" The Chiefs sent the following reply: Sirs, We know that you highly esteem the kind of learning taught in Colleges, and that the Maintenance of our young Men, while with you, would be very expensive to you. We are convinced, therefore, that you mean to do us Good by your Proposal; and we thank you heartily. But you, who are wise, must know that different Nations have different Conceptions of things; and you will therefore not take it amiss, if our Ideas of this kind of Education happen not to be the same with yours. We have some experience of it. Several of our Young People were formerly brought up at the colleges of the Northern Provinces; they were instructed in all your sciences; but, when they came back to us they were bad Runners, ignorant of every means of living in the Woods,unable to bear either Cold or Hunger, knew neither how to build a cabin, take a Deer, or kill an Enemy, spoke our Language imperfectly, were therefore neither fit for Hunters, Warriors, nor Counselors; they were totally good for nothing. We are, however, not the less obliged by your kind Offer, though we decline accepting it; and, to show our grateful Sense of it, if the Gentlemen of Virginia will send us a Dozen of their Sons, we will take care of their Education; instruct them in all we know, and make Men of them."}, {"response": 173, "author": "cfadm", "date": "Thu, Mar  3, 2005 (10:37)", "body": "Sect. 43 of Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations says that: \"For a large class of cases--though not for all--in which we employ the word \"meaning\" it can be defined thus: the meaning of a word is its use in the language.\" It is quite clear that here Wittgenstein is not offering the general theory that \"meaning is use,\" as he is sometimes interpreted as doing. The main rival views that Wittgenstein warns against are that the meaning of a word is some object that it names--in which case the meaning of a word could be destroyed, stolen or locked away, which is nonsense--and that the meaning of a word is some psychological feeling--in which case each user of a word could mean something different by it, having a different feeling, and communication would be difficult if not impossible. Knowing the meaning of a word can involve knowing many things: to what objects the word refers (if any), whether it is slang or not, what part of speech it is, whether it carries overtones, and if so what kind they are, and so on. To know all this, or to know enough to get by, is to know the use. And generally knowing the use means knowing the meaning. Philosophical questions about consciousness, for example, then, should be responded to by looking at the various uses we make of the word \"consciousness.\" Scientific investigations into the brain are not directly relevant to this inquiry (although they might be indirectly relevant if scientific discoveries led us to change our use of such words). The meaning of any word is a matter of what we do with our language, not something hidden inside anyone's mind or brain. This is not an attack on neuroscience. It is merely distinguishing philosophy (which is properly concerned with linguistic or conceptual analysis) from science (which is concerned with discovering acts). One exception to the meaning-is-use rule of thumb is given in Philosophical Investigations Sect.561, where Wittgenstein says that \"the word \"is\" is used with two different meanings (as the copula and as the sign of equality)\" but that its meaning is not its use. That is to say, \"is\" has not one complex use (including both \"Water is clear\" and \"Water is H2O\") and therefore one complex meaning, but two quite distinct uses and meanings. It is an accident that the same word has these two uses. It is not an accident that we use the word \"car\" to refer to both Fords and Hondas. But what is accidental and what is essential to a concept depends on us, on how we use it. This is not completely arbitrary, however. Depending on one's environment, one's physical needs and desires, one's emotions, one's sensory capacities, and so on, different concepts will be more natural or useful to one. This is why \"forms of life\" are so important to Wittgenstein. What matters to you depends on how you live (and vice versa), and this shapes your experience. So if a lion could speak, Wittgenstein says, we would not be able to understand it. We might realize that \"roar\" meant zebra, or that \"roar, roar\" meant lame zebra, but we would not understand lion ethics, politics, aesthetic taste, religion, humor and such like, if lions have these things. We could not honestly say \"I know what you mean\" to a lion. Understanding another involves empathy, which requires the kind of similarity that we just do not have with lions, and that many people do not have with other human beings. When a person says something what he or she means depends not only on what is said but also on the context in which it is said. Importance, point, meaning are given by the surroundings. Words, gestures, expressions come alive, as it were, only within a language game, a culture, a form of life. If a picture, say, means something then it means so to somebody. Its meaning is not an objective property of the picture in the way that its size and shape are. The same goes of any mental picture. Hence Wittgenstein's remark that \"If God had looked into our minds he would not have been able to see there whom we were speaking of.\" Any internal image would need interpretation. If I interpret my thought as one of Hitler and God sees it as Charlie Chaplin, who is right? Which of the two famous contemporaries of Wittgenstein's I mean shows itself in the way I behave, the things I do and say. It is in this that the use, the meaning, of my thought or mental picture lies. \"The arrow points only in the application that a livi g being makes of it.\" philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}, {"num": 9, "subject": "To talk or not to talk?", "response_count": 48, "posts": [{"response": 1, "author": "americ", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (16:33)", "body": "Tell me more about this phrase \"in the bright\"."}, {"response": 2, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Fri, Nov 28, 1997 (17:08)", "body": "At the moment I am getting ready for work. A quick explanation of what I feel \"in the bright\" means is total contentment and complete happiness with one self at all times."}, {"response": 4, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (05:46)", "body": "I completely agree with you, kicthen manager. You can not be an enlightened soul by yourself. That is not possible. A hermit is not a happy man."}, {"response": 5, "author": "americ", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (12:43)", "body": "it does seem to me that in becoming happy one's self we make a contribution to the happiness of all and, yet, as we do that we have greater compassion for all the souls that are in suffering yeshe -- you must be a bodisattva"}, {"response": 6, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (13:28)", "body": "Speak from the heart (soul), and the whole world listens and wonders. Speak from the ego, and you can be very popular."}, {"response": 7, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (19:52)", "body": "Being in the bright is a beautiful cycle....... Brightness rubs from one to another, creating love amougst us all. And coming to a completion when we are all as one... I was told those who give love, recieve love....."}, {"response": 8, "author": "americ", "date": "Mon, Dec  1, 1997 (19:58)", "body": "Yes, such a blessing! Somedays, when I am down. I find the greatest blessing is someone in the Bright. They may be someone just passing by on the street. Their state of mind passes over to me. And, I feel blessed and reminded of the joy-bliss that was already inside of me."}, {"response": 9, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Tue, Dec  2, 1997 (22:46)", "body": "Yeshe, Who's to say a hermit is really alone. Isn't that the time when we can really get in touch???"}, {"response": 10, "author": "yeshe", "date": "Wed, Dec  3, 1997 (22:57)", "body": "But to much time alone, leaves a man withdrawn from others."}, {"response": 11, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (11:31)", "body": "Are you saying twenty years in the desert is not (ultimately) a good thing?"}, {"response": 12, "author": "americ", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (15:15)", "body": "We are social animals."}, {"response": 13, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Thu, Dec  4, 1997 (17:07)", "body": "I agree that outwardly we are social. But inwardly, in (apparent) solitude there can be a different connection. Some people enjoy solitude to uncover that connection."}, {"response": 14, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (19:21)", "body": "we are social animals but every so often I have to be alone to remember who I am."}, {"response": 15, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (19:56)", "body": "yeah, I think solitude can be vastly undervalued..."}, {"response": 16, "author": "stacey", "date": "Fri, Dec  5, 1997 (20:40)", "body": "not today as I sit in my empty classroom at 5:30pm!!!"}, {"response": 17, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sat, Dec  6, 1997 (00:31)", "body": "Hey Stacey, Are you not who you are... all of the time? Maybe you need to be alone to remember who you were. To see that you have changed and grown."}, {"response": 18, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sat, Dec  6, 1997 (23:02)", "body": "how very...profound. (and Stacey- do you, like, remember you're Stacey today, or what?:))"}, {"response": 20, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (01:02)", "body": "who is it you prefer to be, wer?"}, {"response": 22, "author": "americ", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (13:57)", "body": "In the SILANCE we are really all the same. Personal identity is mostly the accidents of history. But what is below THAT which is found in silance is not any of the things we do or think. So I think to say this morning."}, {"response": 23, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (18:29)", "body": "In the silence is the unjudged experience"}, {"response": 25, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Sun, Dec  7, 1997 (21:33)", "body": "which can be either good, or bad..."}, {"response": 26, "author": "Estaben", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (15:27)", "body": "Wer I've only heard one voice in there... Do you hear more than one, or do you speak of voices from outside?"}, {"response": 28, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (18:57)", "body": "I am many people, all of them me, all of the time. But, in truth, I am different person with different people and really enjoy finding the woman who I am alone in her own solitide. Make sense?"}, {"response": 29, "author": "Wolf", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (22:50)", "body": "Yes, that does make sense. We all have our different sides and depending the situation we are in and/or the people involved, helps us decide which side to put forth. Maybe it has to do with self-protection and the need to feel safe."}, {"response": 30, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (22:53)", "body": "yeah, very much (sense, i mean)..."}, {"response": 31, "author": "pmnh", "date": "Mon, Dec  8, 1997 (22:55)", "body": "hey... you again... did you spam me?"}, {"response": 32, "author": "TIM", "date": "Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (22:15)", "body": "All of this talk of different sides, and different people makes me wonder, which is the truth. Or is there a true side. Or are they all just masks."}, {"response": 33, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (20:09)", "body": "Everybody's got a mask, not just here, in cyberspace, but everywhere. Masks are people's defenses, people's self-images, people's egos... Tim, you have a mask like all the rest of us. And I'm sure you have a true side as well."}, {"response": 34, "author": "TIM", "date": "Mon, Dec  7, 1998 (21:48)", "body": "You are right Stacey. The mask is a shield. Used to keep enemies out."}, {"response": 35, "author": "stacey", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (14:33)", "body": "or at least those perceived as enemies"}, {"response": 36, "author": "PT", "date": "Thu, Dec 10, 1998 (16:57)", "body": "That is the trouble with using a mask. It often distorts the vision. Both ways."}, {"response": 37, "author": "stacey", "date": "Mon, Apr 19, 1999 (13:54)", "body": ""}, {"response": 38, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Mon, Apr 19, 1999 (14:24)", "body": ""}, {"response": 39, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (14:14)", "body": "How does one talk in such a way that it is not taken as an attack?"}, {"response": 40, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (16:43)", "body": "the short answer: very carefully ;) the long answer: there are actually entire works that are devoted to that topic. it is an interesting mix of body language, facial expression, voice inflections, choice of words, present situation, and past history. any specific examples/situations you'd like to talk about william?"}, {"response": 41, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (17:13)", "body": "no...you pretty much covered it..."}, {"response": 42, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (17:22)", "body": "Wer and Ray - if you find the all-working answer on that, be sure to get the rights and sell it to the UN. It depends on the talkers abilities, and the talked-to person's set of perceptions. As the first varies from person to person, and also in one person according to different influences (tiredness, bloodsugar level, intoxication, neurological and psychiatric limitations, etc.) and the other depends on the given, plus social influences (the set of communication forms trainined in the environment the person was raised in), all is constantly in a kind of free fall. You tumble, see unwanted impact, withdraw, evade undesired contexts,... Basically, fair communication is a thing that is only possible in a philosophical way. But there is something more to this, something one can learn."}, {"response": 43, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Thu, Apr 22, 1999 (17:25)", "body": "or at least someone should learn..."}, {"response": 44, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Sat, Apr 24, 1999 (10:15)", "body": "Sometimes I hate this &%$\ufffd\ufffd$\"!??'*!\ufffd-crap! I wrote a really useful note, and it wouldn't submit, and I didn't cut & paste it to save it with e.g. the Notepad for Pete's sake, and then the whole box STOPPED! In short: stop conversation. Freeze topic. Do NOT continue this path, side-step and start a discussion on the former discussion (not on the topic, but on the exchange of arguments, possible misunderstandings and wrong assumptions). Do what's called a *Meta-conversation*. It's not about you. It's not about the other person. Not about the issue you were originally talking about. It's all about the manner in which you conversed, and how to resolve communicational and emotional roadblocks. Mistakes and low-blows you dealt or felt served by the other party. Try to strip the former discussion from offenses and offended feelings. Rationalize your and the other person's feelings. Get possible \"hurt issues\" resolved. Note: In most cases, it may be more in your own interest to keep social and emotional ties to the other party intact, than to win an argument. (Disclaimer: I do not guarantee anybody that this works. Don't hold me responsible if things don't work out. It's your life, and your free choice of steps. More or less, anyway.)"}, {"response": 45, "author": "mikeg", "date": "Sat, Apr 24, 1999 (11:36)", "body": "Alexander, why don't you ask terry to set you up a telnet account? It's faster than using the web interface and also you don't have the horrible problem of losing everything after you press \"Submit\" (something that used to plague me a lot!) you could probably email wer as well and ask him to set it up"}, {"response": 46, "author": "ratthing", "date": "Sat, Apr 24, 1999 (12:26)", "body": "i could set it up for you if you want, alexander."}, {"response": 47, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sat, Apr 24, 1999 (13:10)", "body": "it's set-up now, your password is in the mail..."}, {"response": 48, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Sat, Apr 24, 1999 (16:38)", "body": "No, I want Ray to do something for me! He just screwed me up once, and you do that all the time! Give the young folk a chance!"}, {"response": 49, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Sun, Apr 25, 1999 (00:32)", "body": "too late...(what happened to teaching old dogs new tricks?)"}, {"response": 50, "author": "aschuth", "date": "Sun, Apr 25, 1999 (04:45)", "body": "(From what I heard, the trainer got shot, and the dog retired. Lives in Florida now. Guess that figures.)"}, {"response": 51, "author": "KitchenManager", "date": "Tue, Apr 27, 1999 (23:14)", "body": "(yep)"}, {"response": 52, "author": "MarciaH", "date": "Wed, Aug 25, 1999 (21:03)", "body": "Two schools of thought: If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all. and You can keep silent and make them wonder if you are stupid, or you can open your mouth and remove all doubt. Sounds like we need a third school!"}, {"response": 53, "author": "cfadm", "date": "Fri, Jun 18, 2004 (06:31)", "body": "http://www.deadmedia.org/notes/45/459-comment.html philosophy conference Main Menu"}]}]}