bioregions - getting to know your unique niche on planet earth

My reference for this topic is a website I created while sitting by the side of my pool two weekends ago: http://www.bioregion.com Perhaps through this topic I can develop this site further and we as individuals can get more familiar with our own watersheds and bioregions.

one thing folks can do to help out their local ecosystems is to plant native vegetation. find out what grows in your area (besides weeds) and set aside a piece of your yard or even just a clay pot. here in NW Louisiana, there is at least one gardner who does this and her plants are beautiful (not me, but i'm trying). another thing (probably just MO) but, keep your backyards clean, ok? i see so many places trashed (even in the nicer neighborhoods). people come here and complain because of the way it looks, well, all it takes are people to take responsibility for their own plot of green (or concrete), recycle what you can, mulch what you can, and throw the rest out (neatly in the nice garbage cans the city provides), mow the yard and weed the garden. OK????? is that too much to ask? ok, i'm done now....

Terry, thank you for your timely topic. I am honored that it graces this site. I do need to pry my eyes open and goad my still-sleeping mind into action - it is not yet 5am here, and I am not thinking without extemem effort.

An Island in the middle of an Ocean is an encapsulated Bioregion. This is especially true of the smaller ones. On the Hawaiian Islands there are low central mountains with a windward and a leeward side. On the Island of Hawaii (about the size of Connecticut,) however, we have many Bioregions. Our mountains start in the subtropics and rise through temperate, alpine and eventually polar regions on the summits where we get snow. At 4267 M (14,000') above sea level and 8534 M (28,000') below sea level, they are the highest mountains on earth. We also have a windward and leeward side which are as different as rain forest (Hilo) to desert (Kona). The Volcanic areas and almost extra-terrestrial in their habitats. It is Earth in its rawest newest form with all of the original minerals and gases still entrapped. One can grow sizeable plants in fresh cinder. It self-fertilizes for about 2 years from the nutrients with which it was formed.

or we gonna talk about riparian life zones, too?

I sure hope so - you live in a riverine world in Austin. I hope you are going to be my source for information of the riparian sort. Is that Colorado River in Austin part of "The" Colorado? Anything descriptive, including the elusive and endangered Barton Springs reptile would greatly be appreciated. (We are pathetically river-challenged...one in Hilo is only 20 feet long!)

can we talk about climax vegetation, too?

Good idea...shall you or shall I?

doesn't anyone else want to join in?

somebody tell me what climax vegetation is!

This is as good a place to check climax vegetation, and the place from which I took the following definition. http://www.neonet.nl/ceos-idn/datasets/NPSYNP_VEG_POTENTIAL_CLIMAX.html "A habitat type is a set of environmental conditions (temperature, moisture, light, mineral nutrient availability, disturbance frequency, and others) that appears repeatedly across the landscape. Plant species are suited to indicate a site's location in environmental space because they integrate all the environmental factors as well as the interactions among factors. Plants with narrow tolerance limits of their ecological requirements can be used as indicators of the occurrence of those particular conditions. Thus the plant community is a good indirect indicator of a site's position in environmental space. Habitat types can be combined with similar types into larger groups, called series. Habitat types are named after the climax plant community that would develop on that site after sufficient passage of time. Two species are used in the name. The first is a species with a broad ecological tolerance that dominates the climax community. The second is a species with more specific requirements that indicates the particular place in environmental space that the habitat type occupies. "

On Mauna Kea at timberline, there is scant water and even less vegetation. What little there is falls into two categories: imported species which grow anywhere it can put down seeds, and the Mamane tree which feeds the Palila bird. Both are on the endangered species list, as is the SilverSword, because it does not live any place else on earth. Those are the upper and lower limits of climax vegetation for that particular place. Each bioregion has its own particular upper and lower species types, includ ng your back yard!

so a species like the mamane tree could not be introduced into similar environs to help repopulate it? (such as louisiana?)

I am trying to grow a garden in the Algarve (south of Portugal)with plants, if not indigenous to it, at least that might find it a congenial place. Wolf's question is one I would like to see answered - so I could extrapolate.

First consideration is the latitude of the place you want to plant your mamane tree. That mountain is almost 14,000 feet high (4267 M) and for each hundred feet in elevation you procede north 10 degrees in latitude. (I think that is the proportion - will check when I am more awake). Thus, at 10,000 ft (4048 M)you are in the sub arctic. It will not work. It is too hot and way too wet and warm for the Mamane tree in Lousiana.

(Wolf) one thing folks can do to help out their local ecosystems is to plant native vegetation I deeply agree....and you don�t necessarily need to plant it, it will come to you if you give it a chance and if you cherish it when it does. I�m trying to keep a garden where the natural vegetation can live its life side by side with things I�ve planted but it�s really not very simple if you want it to look good too and not just a wild mess of everything everywhere! But slowly I�m learning how to do it, like leaving space for the natural growth in the right places. The result is beautiful and what�s more, animals come with the plants: hedgehogs, rabbits, frogs, birds, butterflies, bumblebees, beetles. Space and love for every species like in Eden!! :-)

I'm just sorry we can't have the ecosystem without the beetles...

Gi, Dear, in the tropics we have every creepy crawlie there is aside from snakes, and they like to share your dwelling as well. Beetles help make compost so they are beneficial (yes, and they love Roses, too.) Here, we have to keep vigilance a high priority since a good many of our plants, birds and insects live no where else on Earth, and they have evolved not defenses against aggressive newcomers. It is only recently that the department of agriculture has taken a strong stand on what can and cannot be brought into Hawaii.

Oh, I like beetles, Gi. I also take close-up pics of them, am planning to document the flora & fauna in my yard by photographing all the native species. And I forgot to mention spiders, I�m happy of every spider I encounter.....recently watched daily how a big one skillfully tended her hundreds of kids in a nest that she had woven in a branch of a flower.

Spiders are neat. They eat the pests in your garden and are very good parents. We have cane spiders over here which are large enough and fuzzy enough to skin for a fur coat. I repect these, but I do not like them in my house! *shudder*

Elena, I'd love one of your photos for in here as a bioregion most different from what I can relate to. I love your idea of making your yard into native species. Everything will benefit and you are allowed to feel very good about it. Any boulders in there?

And the cleaner the air is that you breathe the more happy, fat spiders there are around you! A good indicator of what�s happening, they�re very sensitive to air pollution.

(Marcia) spiders which are large enough and fuzzy enough to skin for a fur coat. NEVER heard of this before. Are you sure it�s not just a legend???

haha!! elena, i think she's seen them with her own eyeballs *grin* marcia, do post a pic! elena, i don't think i'd get too many animals in my yard (suburban, fenced) but the birds! i have hummer feeders all around my house and use a home made syrup and they come! they're so neat!!! and i have bird feeders and lots of birds. they empty out one of the feeders in a day anyway, i love seeing them.

Please take no offence, but I'm removing myself from this topic! (shudder) See you around in the others!

Bioregions do not require spiders. (*shudder* Indeed!) What is growing on your beaches? Elena, we have Wolf spiders here (Cane spiders they are called locally) and they get as large as a child's outstretched hand. Tarentulas as another thing entirely. I have seen them out west in the US and you could saddle one of those furry buggers and ride them!

you could saddle one of those furry buggers and ride them! Hee hee, I�m sure you could!! Hope somebody took a photo!

wolf spiders here as well. and i love garden spiders, you know, the big longlegged green and yellow gals!!

Argiope. Golden Garden Spiders are lovely indeed. Mine are my weather prognostigators. When they move in under the eaves I know there is a storm coming. They are never wrong!

Elena....uh...no! I do not like them well enough to get that close. Anything that big I do not cozy up to - especially if it has fangs and 8 legs.

Dear Wolf, where on Earth are you? What about fangs & four legs, Marcia? We�re having a hysterical bear hunting discussion here in Finland right now because bears are getting more numerous and have actually killed a few people plus scared some others out of their wits. Bears used to be holy animals for Finns a couple of hundred years ago but modern people can�t stand the idea of having to be afraid of something when they go to pick berries etc.

Elena, i'm in NW Louisiana (not Nawlin's). The bears' habitats must be dwindling and their fear of humans is being overruled by hunger. poor dears. i'm sorry folks were killed by them. does finland have any game reserves or something like that where animals can be protected and still have a habitat to survive in? (not a zoo) there are some places in the NE US that slaughter wolves when their numbers rise too high. i don't agree with it but understand it. wolves get a bad rap anyway.

No, Wolf, the bears� habitats aren�t dwindling really, the trouble is that they like it in Finland and get on very well! There was a time when they were hunted so efficiently that they almost disappeared but now they are returning. I just don�t like hunting and I hate all this bloodthirsty beast hype. You see, most of this country is forest and more bears (and wolves) keep coming across the border from Russia. Bears are naturally very shy and quiet when they�re alone but if you�re unlucky enough to meet a female with cubs, you�re in trouble.

Alas, Man's fear of anything he thinks encroaches on his "freedom" (read: what he wants for himself without regard for anyone or anything else) is bad and thus must be eliminated. I believe four-legged fanged things have as much right here as I do. I try to stay out of their homes and I hope devoutly that they will remain out of mine!

yup, folks need to be properly educated about the predators coming over from russia or anywhere and what to do to protect oneself. bears can usually be frightened off by aggression on the victim's part (or just acting crazy). however, a mom and cubs is something else altogether. as i believe most creatures are. there are more humane options available to control population, such as birth control. which is practiced up north somewhere where deer seem to live in people's yards and cities. i have no problems with hunting as long as it's done for the purpose of sustinence. not for the glory.

And, I don't want part of the poor animal on my floor or on my wall, thank you!

me, either!

Great! I'm glad I found this thread. I took two classes on this topic. Two of my closest friends have a web page that you can find listed on my web page. Their names are Teri and Steve. My web page is http://members.delphi.com/DAWNIS/index.html I have listed a number of friend's sites at mine that you might find interesting and or curious or odd or just plain laughable depending on your point of view. My friend Alex, who does RavenWoods has tons of links in his site that can lead to environmental issues among many other things...

cool, more links!!

Yeh but I can't emember how to bookmark this site for easy access. Dang.

ok, you can do one of two things: 1. go to favorites, add favorites, type in a name and that's it. 2. go to bookmarks, add bookmark and that's it

"go to favorites," well I kinda figured that. (grin) Like how? Also be sure and check out the Trufax site it has incredible links by some well known authors.

When I posted it at Orenda...everyone disappeared for a while

Welcome to Geo! ...that happens a lot, but they will come back!

Dawnis, thanks for the links - will be going there. If you are in Netscape use Control+D to Bookmark.

No...let me clarify.... they fell into the Trufax zone and it took em a while to come back to the planet. It is truely an amazing site. Sorry about the last few short posts.... my 4 month old grandbaby was trying to climb me like a mountain while I held her. (grin) Now if I can just figure out how to add this to my hot list I will come back..... I have been looking around and can't find how to add it to my favorites. Duh! I feel dumb.

what are you using for a browser? (and, do you prefer to be called Debra or Dawnis?)

click on all the stuff at the top (actually, just set your pointer over them) and you should be able to find something. if that doesn't work, use the help file. and what browser you're using would be helpful (i.e., netscape, internet explorer)

I am using Netscape and I answer to either.

I got it finally! I may be slow but I get there eventually. It is on my hot list.

good!!

I took a class on BioDiversity. One of the most important concepts we covered was Key Species. In studies of vioregions it was discoved that certain species were key in the survival of that region. If they disappeared that whole bioregion collapsed. It's the food chain thing, plus environmetal needs. The burning question during this was...when we alter in any way a bioregion how do we know which of the species is critical to the survival of the rest of the inhabitant? At what point do we start a whi h will leak into the surrounding regions which are interconnected and create a dominoe effect that make have widespread ramifications that could be devasting to humanity?

Key Species is the heart of the matter. In some Bioregions, it is so fragile that just one individual species holds that distinction, whereas more hearty and vigorous bioregions will support far greater loss before they succumb. But, as you say, they are all interconnected and we cannot afford a domino effect on that scale. We are part of it, like it or not!

there's some place that the key species seems to be frogs. some of the rarer species are just disappearing. "civilized" man has yet to learn to live in harmony.

Most people cannot create harmony in their own personal lives. Why should their inability to live in harmony elsewhere surprise you? It takes daily effort to keep our personal lives flowing in harmony. I believe the journey starts with ourselves. Create the harmony within and it will radiate out. In my own life...that is the hardest thing to do...mainly because I am hard pressed to have my basic needs met. Because of recent physical ailments I spend a lot of time in this space because I can't afford to run around and join in the actual fray. I hope that by being in here I can at least hone my understanding and hopefully get people thinking. They don't have to agree as long as they think. Many people on the lower end of the economic scale seem to be apathetic when in reality they have their hands full just surviving.

agree with the harmony within self to create harmony without. it surprises me mostly because i love the natural things in this world and it's hard for me to understand why others don't or won't....afterall, we're a product of it and it would make sense that to destroy it we destroy ourselves....i don't understand your reference to lower economic scale and how that affects ones' ability to create harmony.....

(Debra) I believe the journey starts with ourselves. Create the harmony within and it will radiate out. Yes......I daily wonder why so many people seem to cause destruction and death in their natural environment where ever they are. My usual explanation to this is that you do what�s been done to you, and your environment looks like you do inside. It flourishes or looks ailing and dying. But it�s not easy to create harmony within if it hasn�t been encouraged and cherished right from the beginning. I used to watch the neighbor kids who liked to chase and catch small animals like insects and lizards and make them suffer, just like they chased and bullied each other. Once I said to one of them that a lizard is unhappy and will die if it�s kept in captivity in a can without food. The poor kid stared at me with sincere amazement.

It all goes back to parenting. Babies are clean slates and either they learn the right respect for all living things from loving parents, or they learn the pack mentality from their peers who have also not been properly taught. We have a generation appreaching adulthood without the slightest care about anything but "what's in it for me?" Good for you, Elena, for kindly and gently letting one child know the ramifications of his actions.

I wonder if there is a sociological equivalent of biological magnification...hmmm...

Good point...hmmm...(pondering)

*emulating the thinker*

*Rodan?*

Rodin, and a most awkward position. Elbow is on the wrong knee! (Oh yes, there is a less well-known Sam Rodan statue in the Loover somewhere in Brooklyn!)

I thought I had spelled it wrong...more like one of Godzilla's buddies...

Wolf My reference was in regards to peoples priorities...If you are in the lower economic scale your priorities are to keep food on the table and a roof over your head. Things like car problems create extra stess becuaw you are already hard pressed to survive. When you mind is consumed with survival issues there is little time to think about the bigger picture. Our society keeps it's middle class yearning for that newer bigger better car-house-wardrobe.... Credit cards put many of those thing within reach but the price tag is that we are tied into paying off that privalege. That is fine and dandy until something happens and you end up unable to work due to some calamity in your life...then suddenly you are in a hole trying to dig your way out.... It becomes a viscious cycle that holds you prisoner to the system and by the time you get free time...most people don't want to be bothered by bigger issues They watch the news which tells them what the *key issues* of the moment are...(according to corporate America) These issues do not include information on the desicration of the planet because that would be counter productive to their agenda. I took an ethic's class and we spent some time discussing the way people were made to be fearful of all things wild. It was beneficial to do so because it allowed the justification of destroying these things. If wild things are dangerous...then they need to be tamed. One of my neighbors decided that I was a bad mother because I take my children camping in the mountains without a gun to protect us from the wild animals. I laughed at him and told him my children were in more danger from humans than wild animals. This made him furious. He offer to let me watch his film "Wild Animal Attacks." I told him to turn on the news. We do not take care of things we fear...we destroy them. We tend to place no value on things we do not understand. MarciaH: Yes we can teach our children to care about these things but the peer pressure is hard to combat. I love to garden and I taught my (now 24 year old) son to respect nature. He would let bees land on him and walk around on his bare arms because I taught him that these creatures would not harm him unless he did something to make them feel threatened. He never got bitten until the kid next door engaged him in attacking and destroying ant hills and wasp nests. He now takes people on rafting trips and insists that they not burn plastic wrappers but pack them out.

My 37 year old son is an Environmental Geologist who cleans up waste from the ground and breaks it down into harmless chemicals or burns off the small residue through many filtered chimneys. Mine, like yours, would rather be out hiking in the woods or be on Flow front duty at an eruption than in an office to which he has to drive a polluting machine. (Yes, William, I realized that, but I could not leave two ladies pondering and thinking like a statue and have a giant lizard attack us without your protection. I knew you'd understand...and keep Rodan under control *hugs*)

(Debra) When you mind is consumed with survival issues there is little time to think about the bigger picture. Big social problems like economic, educational and sexual inequality cause terrible environmental problems, we all know what sort of catastrophes they have caused all around the world and one of them of course is human overpopulation. So, what we do to each other is also reflected to what happens to the environment. But environmental awareness is also a cultural thing and I know a lot of people in the low economic scale who are very much aware of their environmental responsibility. They definitely spend and destroy less than the wealthy people next door and are proud of it.

debra: that wild animal attacks thing is hilarious. and by this i mean that people don't realize that they are the cause of the attack whether they know it or not. wild animals don't make a habit out of attacking people!! there are wealthy individuals out there who use their status to help with environmental awareness and there are individuals out there on the poverty level who also develop environmental awareness. no, i don't think we can stipulate class as having more or less love of their habitats. the key is education. and i'm not talking about going to college and getting your phd in conservation either.

Both of you are right...of course there are always excptions to the rule. But making the exceptions the basis upon which we make statements doesn't help us understand what we are up against. Ex: I took a class in Political Feminist Theory. During the feminist movement, White women were trying to recruit Black women into the movement and were shooked when they were not interested in the fight for women's rights when they had their hands full just tryng to pull their families up into the middle and upper class. The Black women who were fighting their way out of poverty, thought the White women were a bunch of cry babies. Were there exceptions to the rule? Sure. When we go into areas like the rain forests where suddenly the indigenous people are making enough moeny to take care of their families taking out the rainforests....and we tell them...don't cut down the rain forests because...do you think they are going to be sympathetic to our reasoning? Are there indigenous people who understand...sure. Especially if they are working with the Ethnobiologist who teaches them why they should be concerned...and perhaps some of the elders. Wolf: I agree...the incident was funny...but media portrays the wilds as a place hostile to humans. Think about the movies you have seen since you were a child about humans in the wilderness being chased by packs of wolves...attacked by bears...bitten by rattlesnakes. For those of us who have spent the time in wilderness areas, we know the chances of getting into an auto accident are much more likely. I have run into a mountain lion while hiking and bears...they run as fast in the opposite direction as you do. (grin)

i can see what you're saying, debra, why should they worry about other things that seem trivial compared to what they deal with day to day. what any of us have the potential of dealing with or have dealt with. i don't know much about the feminist movement because the term feminist is offensive to me. i understand and appreciate the theory (of course, i can vote and work) but i don't understand the extremists. unfortunately, they are the ones that instill the stereotype of the term. (just like the random elephant attack makes everyone afraid of elephants) education and making folks aware of their home space is the key in understanding their ecosphere. which is why i spend time filling bird feeders and planting vegetation to invite them in. as a family with pets, we instill into our children the respect required in living together which will hopefully carry on into their years as they learn to live with other people and this planet called earth. they know to save their plastic ice cream and pudding containers because we can use them to start seedlings. wh n they no longer serve that function, we'll send them off with the other recycled products. so it starts right under our noses whether we like it or not.

Amen, Wolfie! If you don't succeed, it is not because you did not try. BTW, I agree whole-heartedly with your view on feminism (a truly offensive name!) I am afraid the radicals in that group, as in any pro-active group, have taken the entire movement in the wrong direction - so much so that I have found myself defending against them and their ideas.

It is not the extremists who instill the steriotype. It is the media. They hand picked the most extreme group to put before the camera. They played on these women's vanity and tooted their horn. Most of the feminist I knew were women who believed that the violence perpetrated against women and children had the same source as the violence perpetrated against the planet. They did not want to rule, but to empower. It is hard to raise healthy children in an unhealthy world. Power-with as opposed to power-over. I believe we start the seeds at home for a better world...when I write here I am, in essence, just casting seed for further thought. To think that we will all someday totally agree on everything is crazy making...but if we can get people to think beyond their comfort zone....well... who knows. I love the differences that people bring to the table...it pushes my envelope to try and see it through their eyes. My friends do not all think the way I do...thank goodness...we have wonderful discussions as a result. The fact that we disagree does not make either of us bad or evil...they are loving people with different backgrounds and belief systems. Viva La Difference! (sp?) We can view those differences as threatening or as the spice of life. (grin)

La Difference is what makes Hawaii such a special place in which to live and raise children.

(Wolf) i don't know much about the feminist movement because the term feminist is offensive to me. Wolf, why is the term feminist offensive to you? And what do you mean with extremists? I call myself a feminist, definitely......but I have heard that there is a very different sound to this famous word in different countries. In Finland we don�t talk much about womens� rights nowadays although maybe we should for instance because women still earn less than men and thus have less say in the society. There are still strong structures that try to keep women as second class citizens and this has its negative effects to everything else, in societies and environment everywhere. Over here the current ethical discussion is about the rights of animals actually. A young girl recently got a severe punishment for stealing dogs from a laboratory where they were used as test animals. A lot of studies, books and articles have been made about this question these days. My personal decision is not to eat meat because I can�t stand the idea of cattle suffering and being slaughtered because of me!

that the violence perpetrated against women and children had the same source as the violence perpetrated against the planet. Amen, Debra!! Btw it�s interesting to know that feminish is such a bad word in America! But I�m very sad if the media has succeeded to turn women against the whole idea. After all it�s simply the question of equal rights as human beings reagrdless of sex.

Testosterone Poisoning

we are born with equal rights, in my eyes. i never thought i couldn't do anything because of my sex. it's the fact that other people think it shouldn't be this way and are allowed to make decisions that affect everyone. the fact is, we let them a long time ago. we've always had a voice but we chose not to use it and if we used it, we let them wipe it out. i'm sorry, but i don't believe in blame. that does not fix anything. violence comes from the same place no matter where or to whom it's directed. people need to realize that it's a choice that is made. not something that happens and not because so and so did it and we've always dealt with things in this way. am not trying to argue with anyone so please don't take it that way. *hugs*

marcia, you snuck in before me!

Wolf dear, it's just one of those little perks I have as World Builder of this Conference...;D

Marcia, dear, great discussion!

I'm sorry Wolf but I disagree. A a woman who was once a female child...(wasn't that profound) I can tell you we are not all born with equal rights. I had to fight tooth and nail to be taken seriously because I was a "dumb blonde" with big tits. At work my co-workers male and female insisted I got accounts because of how I looked. I was a very modest person and did not let it all hang out. In fact as a singer I wanted to know if I really had talent so I dressed in tent dresses and refused to wear makeup. If diagnosing a problem is accessing blame then why don't we call it that when the engineer tells us there is a crack in the dam created by faulty workmanship? Or when a doctor says he has a fractured skull caused by hitting his head on the windshield? That answer in my oppinion (grin) is a cop out. You never hear people say, he got the job because he is well hung. If a woman is agressive on the job she is a bitch...when a man is agressive...he is a real go getter, assertive. Careful...if there is reincarnation and you come back to understand things you didn't get in this lifetime you may come back as a woman. I wonder what tune you would sing then? (Big lopsided smile)

(Wolf)we are born with equal rights, in my eyes. i never thought i couldn't do anything because of my sex. I'm in agreement. Though the word 'feminist' is not so offensive to me, I find it unnecessary, because I have always considered myself equal. It never occured to me that being a woman placed limitations on me, despite the fact that I was born and grew up in a country where males control everything. I always thought that whatever I wanted could be mine if I chose to work for it, and I suppose I must thank my parents for that. I find that though people may have a certain way of thinking, the realities of li e may influence the practice of those beliefs. For example, in my country (Honduras) a lot of men think that women who work outside of the home can get "corrupted", but the truth is that a considerable portion of the labor force (I have no exact figure at hand) is female, simply because economic conditions demand it. I think that concerning environmental issues, education and cultural priorities are the key. In Honduras there is a small but active environmental movement, but it is extremely difficult to change people's perceptions, and things like disposing of trash in the nearest empty lot, driving cars that smoke, letting domestic animals die of curable diseases, and kicking the random stray dog for fun are (sadly and shamefully) part of every day life (not mine, I hasten to add). Most people think the treatment tha animals get here in the U.S. and simple respect for nature, are luxuries and trivial concerns of people who have nothing better to do. I don't know what has to happen to change those views.

well, debra, i'm not trying to argue with you, dear...you said you enjoyed hearing other's points of view. let's remember that we're all from different backgrounds. i grew up in a very strict household and didn't even have boobs til my daughter was born (the second of my children). perhaps if i explain that i was a military brat and am currently with the air force, you would understand why i feel no threat to my standing based on sex. they tried that with me when i first enlisted. (the fellow airmen). bu i proved to them that i wasn't afraid to get dirty. in fact, some of my male coworkers were afraid to break a sweat. now that's sad. i revel in the fact that i am a woman. i work directly for my commander now and it's not because i look good in skirts. it's because i went to the desert and worked my a-- off right along with the men. hey, maybe because i'm ugly, you'd say, or that i'm brunette and have small boobs and have a few pounds on my hips, i don't care. i know i earned the place where i'm at becau e i worked for it. and truthfully, don't have time to worry about whether they look at me differently because i'm a woman and not a man. debra, when i refer to accessing blame i don't mean that an individual didn't die from their injuries. the kind of blame i'm refering to is not taking responsibility for self and allowing the other's to be the cause of all of one's problems. yes, i had a bad childhood, but its not my parents fault that i'm timid. it is my nature. and i have chosen not to repeat the mistakes i've endured. it would be easy for me to sit here and say "oh mom didn't love me enough so screw it, that's why i can't get a promoti n". oh, that man over there only promoted me because i had coffee with him when we were first introduced and he remarked that he liked my dress. yes, it's his fault. i only got the job because i let my breasts hang low and slept with the boss. hello! i'm not saying to you that women are treated completely as equals. i can't say that that's completely possible. men and women are made differently. however, we can, as equals, work together intelligently. please don't think that i am condoning the fact that omen are payed less then men. that is not my take at all. debra, sweetie, i understand what you're saying, so please try to understand what i'm saying. in no way is it my intention to fight for who's right. this matter is not black and white. i have learned that everything depends. depends on this or that, etc. if you feel that we are arguing, please email me and we can discuss it further. well, i'm just a wolf who lives in the woods, anyway *hugs to all*

...and, lest anyone wonder, Wolf is a Lady with a capital L.

I am not arguing either. I thought these areas were for discussing issues. That takes at least two people throwing out ideas. I try to throw in grins and smiles to show that I am ejoying the discussion and not angry. I have been told that because of the way I write it comes off as too forceful. I write with the same passion I feel for life. I think it is pretty funny.... I thought all this time you were a male. I too was an Airforce brat for part of my life. Dad was a military scientist in Aerospace. I have not allowed attitudes of males stop me from doing what I wanted and I agree that we cannot blame the past for where we are today in most cases. However there are things from our past that do have an impact on us, that we at times have very little control on. I was adopted when I was ten...I have no memory of the abuse I was put through up till the time I was 7, but it sure came back to kick me in later life...Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Since I found my natural family I have been able to validate the severity of the abuse. We are a product of many aspects of our lives...genetics...emvironment, social settings, economics, to name a few, if one of those aspects is damaged it alters our life. Just as in a bioregion if the key species is taken out the whole bioregion can collapse. It is all interconnected, why should we mentally as humans be any differnt? I know that as a child I was very outgoing (from talking to my natural family) I ended up being very shy. As I got older, my original personality emerged again, but was lost again during the PTSD attacks. It is in the discussing of issues that we find the commonalities and perhaps find information we would never have gotten otherwise, because time does not allow us to experience everything in life. My life has been an interesting saga of economic peaks and valleys (partially due to the undiagnosed PTSD) If undue stress is placed on a bone it becomes damaged or broken...without proper treatment it may never function properly again. If a farmer takes all the nutients out of the soil, his crops will fail can the soil be repaired...in time sure. Our body, is in essence a bioregion. If one area is damaged it changes the course of our lives...does it mean we will necesarilly fail? Of course not. It means we may get there a little slower or may need some assistance to do so. If a child is told you are smart all their lives and praised for their achievements, they tend to get what they desire easier than the child who had to overcome being told they would never amount to anything. Does it mean the child who was not encouraged will not get there? Some will and some may be so damaged they never get out of that negative space. Why? That is the million dollar question. Let's figure it out so we can claim our million dollars. (hugs back)

what? there's money involved? *grin*

Sure it starts with...A penney for your thoughts....(giggle)

well, heck, i should be a millionare by now!! drats, if only i knew i could charge for that..... i found a plant that doesn't work too well in my bioregion: fuschia. the darned thing has all but give out on me. she is shaded and well fed. all her leaves died but her branches were still green. i trimmed her back and am waiting. oh, i shoulda put this in gardening, eh?

Nope you are right your plant is a bioregion.... figuring out if it needs more light or less...top watering or from the roots is a part of sustaining it's health and happiness. The human condition is much the same. How do we integrate all our needs into a healthy environment. Individual needs: A Jade plant needs more sun and less water. Many plants like Ficus can do well without lots of sun. Coomonality: They all add beauty to their surroundings but need some degree of food, water, sunshine. I think too often we use our own lives as the gage for everone elses needs. In my activist work I saw this happen a lot. Especially when we were forming the Green Party. I kept asking how are we going to design a political party that meets the needs of the whole state. We have rivers that flow through our desert state and those areas that have developed around these water sources have very specific needs. Ranchers who graze cattle on the desert have others. People living in the mountian areas have their own special needs. In the city of Albuquerque and surrounding suburbs alone all of these bioregions are part of the dynamics. Plus the added needs of the inner city plus all the up scale and mid. scale and down scale neighborhoods. How do we find a way to govern the specific needs of each of these bioregions? Have you ever noticed that the person who offers you a penny for your thoughts seldom comes up with the penney? (giggle)

The fuchsia here do not like wet feet and they like cool filtered shade (they thrive at the 6,000' level on Kilauea on the verges of the tree fern forests. Perhaps potted, you could regulate drainage better? Don't know what you can do about the "cool" part, though.

marcia, she is potted and have found that she has to be watered regularly (as in everyday) to keep her from wilting. there does seem to be water standing in the saucer. think i'll go remove that and see what happens.

Ok, and move her to the breeziest corner of mixed shade you have.

that is where she is, under my neighbors live oak tree (the part that's in my yard) and facing north. there was a lot of yellowing and black spot looking stuff on her leaves all the time, too. i didn't treat it as i really didn't know what it was.

Do you fertilize her regularly? Will get out my books and see what they say about the spotting problem.

(Marcia)Testosterone Poisoning I see you�ve moved on from feminism to fuschia but I just need to say something to that snap of yours, Marcia!! I think that feminism is the most important part of modern humanism AND one of the most important ideologies in saving this planet (with this I�m referring to overpopulation as the result of the lack of womens� education in developing countries). It�s tragic if the media has made this ideology look like it�s hostile to men or that equality means similarity or whatever bullsh**. That�s a terrible misunderstanding but I know why it has happened, every ideology has it�s history and feminism too had its aggressive youth. Feminism is not seen as a radical movement in Finland anymore because its ideas have been largely integrated to the Finnish society in legislation and research. I think only Sweden is ahead of us (a lot ahead!) what comes to the modernisation of laws and official attitudes. Nowadays even men do feministic research in universities here. Well, everyday life is still something else, women don�t easily get in high places in firms and politics, and sexual & domestic violence is usual. Btw I belong to a feministic society that gets money from the State to help raped & sexually abused women to get justice and therapy.

Excuse me if I'm male and talk (again) out of my turn, but in daily life, feminism means what people put into it. Comparing e.g. the US-American women's rights movement, most noticeably the National Organization for Women (NOW), and the state the women's movement is in in some European countries, you could already fifteen years ago see that - at least within the movements and per their view upon the world - "feminism" in the states was more something of a cooperative aim, where women AND men were working for an idea they shared. In Middle Europe, this is still today not necessarily accepted. Feminist studies are an all-female science; many self-declared feminists of female gender are, huh, how to express politely, enthusiastic male-bashers (which - to me - constitutes a case of chauvinism, not feminism). Perhaps this has to do with the lack of nation-wide centralized organizations as NOW in Europe. I cannot see how we will develop our societies if all we do is alienating each other. Feminism does not equal gender suprematism, but many - male and female - interpret it this way, feeling attacked or legitimized to attack. Elena, how did Finland manage to get over this obstacle?

Alexander, welcome! You never speak out of turn when you post in Geo. Free flow of ideas is what I am trying to encourage. This Male-bashing you mentioned - is it not another form of scape-goat thinking?

Not if you think men are the cause of the problem.

Do they honestly think this is so? I rather doubt that these women who are twice my size could be backed-down by any male at any time. Individuals are responsible for their lives, not some nebulous Male agenda. My opinion, of course, but I would be happy to debate it any time. I am flexible and a thinker. I would be delighted to be enlightened!

i abhor bashing of any sort. it's ignorant and displays that fact loud and clear. i am all for abuse and rape therapy groups and would hope that men have an outlet as well. shamedly, this country is only now beginning to recognize the results of abuse for women let alone men. (or maybe that should be the other way around) i agree that feminism is shown in a bad light via the media which so likes to show the worst of everything no matter what the subject. women are a natural complement to men. each bring out the best and worst in each other. we let ignorance be our guide rather than really seeing things for what they are and then blaming everything on society. well, i ask, just who is this "society"? do they belong with the infamous "them" and "they"? or are WE the society? if we are, it is up to us to reshape it and we do 't have to be radical or fanatical to do it. we have to remember that the only people we can change is ourselves, which is key. to change society, we have to change ourselves by education and compassion. please note that compassion does not mean tolerance. of course, the ideas expressed in this post are simply my opinion. am not trying to pick a fight. just talking.

(Alexander) but in daily life, feminism means what people put into it. Yep, in fact I�ve always thought that Marcia is a feminist and I still do (hee hee) (Marcia) Individuals are responsible for their lives I do not think that individuals are fully responsible for their lives because we all are products of our cultures, upbringing and even direct ideologic manipulation. We are deeply indoctrinated and it takes a lot of intellectual energy and sometimes a lot of pain to be able to see how and why, and what are its causes in ourselves. (Alexander) I cannot see how we will develop our societies if all we do is alienating each other. Bingo! About male-bashing.....many feminists are understandably deeply bitter because or the terrible things that they have experienced because of their sex, or the terrible things that we all know are happening to millions of women in the world because they�re women, not people with human rights. I think most of active feminists go through that bitterness first, you just can�t open your eyes to facts without first reacting emotionally. It can take some blood, sweat, tears and braincells to realize that men really are victims of the same tradition and that individual men are not responsible for it! You just have to get over your bitterness to be able to do something positive about things.

Thank you!

I should have been more explicit... Elena, thanks for pointing out "that individual men are not responsible for it!"

You�re welcome, dear!

Thank you Elena for not tarring the whole of masculinity with the same brush. Me? A feminist???!!! I never thought of me in that way...hmmmm...

But you are! Great, isn�t it?! Btw I�m not twice your size........you know very well that I�m definitely shorter than 6�1.....

Yes, m'dear...I do know exactly what you look like and you are looking at me right this moment, as a matter of fact (or vice versa!) Compared with the others in your picture - you are of average height, indeed!

(Debra)when we were forming the Green Party. When was this? I think I haven�t heard of a Green party in the US. How successful has it been? There is a Green Party in Finland too and I think they have done ok.....but not well enough yet. They have 11 mandates in the Parliament (100 members in all) and nine of them are women. The minister of environment is also a female Green Party member and the leader of the party. (Alexander)Feminism does not equal gender suprematism, but many - male and female - interpret it this way, feeling attacked or legitimized to attack. Elena, how did Finland manage to get over this obstacle? I�m not saying that we managed to get over it. You just need to look at the tabloid papers to see that men feel more or less threatened and keep trying to put women down, especially strong female politicians. However it�s pretty mild stuff. Everyday life and attitudes are one thing and the official equality policy is another but I don�t think they are too far from each other really. I think it�s the question of culture, history, tradition and religion. Strong and decisive women are traditionally respected in the Nordic countries. Equality also seems to be easier in Lutheran countries than Catholic. Also, Finns love efficiency above anything else and as a small nation of 5 million people we need all the labour force we can get! Half of it is women nowadays and things like children�s daycare have been arranged efficiently. Housewives practically don�t exist.

But tango dancers do! I wish you could teach me tango! I wish I had more Finnish tango records - perhaps some Eino Gr�n, no? Perhaps that would help me see deeper through the inter-gender jungle... Much of what you said is very agreeable to me. And perhaps analysis would show men are victims, too - look at how in the Western world they are killed of by stress-related heart-conditions... Our parents prepare our men for what they think men should be, much as our parents do with girls. Perhaps both are not acting or living in certain ways because of their own free will, but social programming. Perhaps I should stop here, because there are enough people who would roast me for this heresy...

(Alexander) I wish you could teach me tango! Hmmmm......online lessons perhaps??

hey, there's a place locally that teaches ballroom dancing. you know, if you could set up your lear jet we could get you in a class!

Tango lessons...what is next? *lol* After a ill-spent youth taking "couth" lessons to make me into a debutante (during which I learnt to tango and everything else socially acceptable), I declined the debut and ball...I have not tangoed since. Let us know how the European connection is doing with it in the far north. I am much intrigued. Shall I perhaps create (or you do it, Alexander!) a new topic for you?

Thank you, Marcia, but look at the Finland topic in Travel... Wolf, the jet's grounded for maintenance - for at least as it takes to pay last times bill! Elena - any which way you can! Maybe we discover a correlation between the Finnish's love for tango and gender equality? What role does male alcohol consumption play (or sausage, coffee and cider consumption in ole Dance Barns)? I think the whole matter is nothing to be so tight and hard about, but something fun and alive. Perhaps that is why I don't understand all the problems many folks have... nor do I understand my own too well, but then - I just a guy.

(OT: Alexander, Reijo Taipale is my favourite tango singer....I�m sure you know Olavi Virta too??) Maybe we discover a correlation between the Finnish's love for tango and gender equality? Ha ha....that can be difficult. Tango is actually our only escape from the straightjacket of equality!;-) You can�t dance it properly without letting the male take the lead....or you can but that�s another story. That�s why I have to disappoint you, terrible truth is that I really can�t dance it well and whenever somebody asks me to dance it I have to refuse, I don�t want to trample on peoples� toes. Maybe Marcia could teach us both?

Aw, Elena, is this why you vanished from the ball (at the Finland topic in Travel)? That you cannot dance? I would have never noticed! Nor would have anybody there, because that is why the ladies have coffee and the men cider, right? Haven't heard Reijo Taipale yet, but Olavi Virta (have mentioned to you the German compilation with Finnish tango before?). Marcia, dancing teacher - Elena, I bet she could (and would, too!) - but the proper Finnish tango? I doubt that's en vogue in Hawaii... *************************** See, I guess the key is perhaps the fact that dancing together is not a powerplay, but based on a mutual agreement to achieve a common goal - here: enjoy each other. So, who cares who leads, if it is just a dance? Maybe there is something desireable in this - who cares who does what, as long as everybody is happy and the job gets done? Well, I realise this is what got us into the inequality mess we're in first place (shared labour/specialisation), but maybe we can use it also to turn it back... Focusing not on the labour-aspect, but the hedonistic side about it: "You're not happy? What would make you happy? I can ask the band to play a different tune. Want a sausage? Some coffee?", instead of "You're dancing with me now, so DANCE, dammit! And SMILE, fer Pete's sake!"

Alexander is right, Elena, Dance with him and enjoy. The Hula and tango do not mix all that well, and you would not like a half-naked man stomping on your foot, would you?

that depends, hmmmm........

Tango dancing, is it? I know that Tango is the Finnish national dance... but don't know why. Is it more like ballroom tango or like Argentinian Tango? Alexander, hope you enjoy this (I hope it works):

Try again...(I promise to stop if it doesn't work)

Well I would like a half-naked man, not sure about the stomping. Depends! ;-) (Alexander) is this why you vanished from the ball Oh, it wasn�t me who vanished, YOU did, don�t you remember? But I�m ready to put the past behind us and look forward in life. dancing together is not a powerplay Kidding, I was kidding.......actually I can think of some situations where I have nothing against it that the man takes the lead. But the very best is when we can take the lead in turns with love and respect, without clinging to some fuc**** old roles that we didn�t create.

Wow Gi, I had no idea that you dance that well!!! But who is that beautiful man?

I don't...His name is Jorge and hers is Nelida. They are Argentinian professional tango dancers.

Back On Topic for a moment...there are most disturbing events taking place in some Bioregions. Read it and weap for the Children involved and for all of us who allow this to continue without expressing outrage. Please read this: (from Nan in Cultures 27) http://worldnews.about.com/library/weekly/aa072699.htm

that is horrid! (not the tango, the article)

Yes..it most surely is. And, worse than that, I have no idea how to do anything about stopping it.

Oh, and thank you, Wolf, for defending this country. With people like you on guard, perhaps this fate will not be that of our children.

Well, since practically all pedophiles are men, should the charities only send women to work with children in catastrophe areas?

Elena, that is too obvious. Alas, we need leaders at the top who are women who can enforce this. Look at our Commander in Chief...does not speak well for the safely of children anywhere. Run for high office, Dear. I'll go out and raise money and beat drums for you.

Just recently visited a kindergarten where half of the staff were male. That�s not yet very usual in Finland (but slowly increasing) and I saw that the parents of the kids felt a bit uneasy about it, like the fact that these big guys dress and undress babies and all the normal thing in baby care. When I talked about this to people I found very strong prejudices, as if any man who wants to work with small children was a pedophile automatically! Normal men have become suspects too.

unfortunately, most pedophiles don't run around acting like they are. one way to curb them enlisting into charities is to run police checks. or to have a chaperone. no one person is allowed with the kids, at least two people all the time. of course, i can see the problem of both the individuals being a problem to the children. also, teaching the children what to report. you know? i know there are a ton of false reports but do it anyway!

The image of those big guys undressing the little kids makes me feel really bad way deep down where I live.

This is a terrible thing to talk about because the subject matter is one of the worst things that people do to each other, but that of course is no reason for not to talk about it. Here they�re testing in prisons with a drug that reduces the male sexual desire and ability considerably, chemical castration they call it. It has been tested in the US too with pretty optimistic results. Surprisingly, some pedophiles are actually willing to go through such a process because they sincerely want to get rid of their �problem� that�s ruining their own life too, as well as their victims�. One of them was interviewed in a paper saying that he sees it as his only chance in life because without it he�ll inevitably return to crime as soon as he gets out. ********* Back to Tango: Gi, I remember now that it actually was the theme of your exhibition? Do I remember correctly?.....I can�t see if the pic you posted actually is a painting, not a photo.

Did you people know that many pedophiles have a personal history of childabuse? Much as most drug addicts and prostitutes were abused as children, too... Incorporating the abuse and perpetually either repeating it on themselves (if in different form, but still), or pathologically reenact it on others. Here, you find a problem that defies free will, as the assaults create a programming the individual can hardly identify. All they know is they are "driven". And often, they suffer because of this tremendously.

Is intensive therapy, as in psychiatric councelling, the answer?

And, Yes, I am aware of the guilt and sel-loathing that goes with these afflictions.

yes, and many children who suffer child abuse don't grow up to be child abusers themselves. the chain HAS to stop somewhere and it's a CHOICE. (sorry, but this is a touchy subject with me and this is probably not the place to discuss it).

(Alexander) often, they suffer because of this tremendously. Often yes and often no but whatever the case, I�m not willing to feel much sympathy for them, in spite of the obvious fact that their problem is usually caused by similar experiences as kids. I hear that pedophilia is very difficult to cure with therapy, often simply because the criminal is unable to realize that he has done anything wrong.

this is a touchy subject with me Wolf, I feel for you. And I think this is a more or less touchy subject for everybody, for various reasons. But like you said earlier, we can try to stop it by being aware of it, talking to children about it and simply enforcing a strickt 0-tolerance attitude.....also in products like movies and advertising. I think the active public discussion and awareness about this started surprisingly late, in Finland it happened in the beginning of �80s. Before that it was pretty difficult to make anybody believe that things like this really happen and the police wasn�t too interested. Now the attitude is different and any reports are taken very seriously.

The truth is, when you push majority (i.e., coming of age) later in years, and show progressively younger children as desirable sexual objects in publicity campaigns ecc, you are going to have more and more trouble. Remember also that it was usual for classical (ancient) greeks to love young boys who had not grown a beard yet. I am not defending paedophilia, which disgusts me as it does you. Yes, Elena, Tango was indeed an exhibition topic, and the pic I posted is of one of my paintings. Good of you to remember! :-)

the pic I posted is of one of my paintings I see that you were too modest to mention this yourself first! And as an answer to your question earlier about Finnish tango (this really suits fine the Bioregions topic doesn�t it?!? :-), ordinary people dance it everywhere, for example tonight in the local shabby dance restaurants in this smalltown. The most popular singers in Finland are usually tango singers, and their career often starts at a huge tango festival in a city called Seinajoki where people do the tango round the clock for days. For many people this is a real must yearly. You should come and see, you�d certainly paint a little different sort of tango paintings after that!

Haven't been here for a week and there wer 96 messages! Interesting discussion: feminism, tango, pedophiles, and Japanese movie monsters. ;-) Seriously though I would have a few comments on the current perception of feminism and how much of it relates to one's age. Having watched the trailblazers in action in my formative years, I have nothing but respect for what they accomplished in changing our society. Galls me when I see younger women boast that they are not feminists and want to have nothing to do with them. Most don't recognize that they wouldn't be in the positions they have without those women. As always, they haven't a clue as to he way it was before. Sad. I shall try to stay more current and get a book on Learning to Tango. :-)

you know, i'd love to take tango lessons but unfortunately, my husband has two left feet and no sense of rhythm...haha! i don't think it'd look the same doing it by myself!!!!

Sorrow not! Look where my tango lessons got me. No one does it here unless a travelling dance troupe is making the rounds of the community concert series!

younger women boast that they are not feminists and want to have nothing to do with them Well I�m very happy if there�s no need for young women to be feminists!! That�s what we have aimed at, right? I guess women earn as much as men in the US these days, for example... When I got my interested in feminism at about 16 I naturally wanted to talk about it with my best girlfriend but she didn�t want to hear a word. She didn�t want to �start hating men� or how was it! After that I�ve always interpreted womens� negative attitude to feminism simply as unwillingness to open their eyes to unpleasant facts. And that leads to not being able to do anything about them. Well, keeping our eyes, ears AND mouth shut suits the patriarchy fine!!!

She didn�t want to �start hating men� Where did being a feminist or being sympathetic to feminist issues equate to hating men? That is the negative perception of what the 1960s-70s feminists were all about. And all they did was burn their bras and were uglier than sin, among other negative stereotypes. I guess women earn as much as men in the US these days, for example... No they do not.

I agree that without the angry radical feminists of 20 to 30 years ago, and without the 1900s feminists, we would not be where we are now...taking it easier and being "more reasonable" in our protests.

I should still stay out of this conversation, shouldn't I?

Oh yes, my dear, if you value your life, or unless you are extraordinarily good at tango...I'd run for the hills, if I were you, and I am right behind you!

That's what I thought.

I'm bringing sandwiches and binoculars and a blanket - we can watch from a safe distance.

I'm bringing sandwiches and binoculars and a blanket Just what are you two up to?? I should still stay out of this conversation, shouldn't I? William, please just bravely put in your two cents!! :-)

Wer - ole buddy, surely you will not leave me behind, to fall victim to these feminist, post-feminist, anti-feminist and non-feminist predators? I see my bones bleaching peacefully on a meadow in a tiny valley, with a little peaceful creek flowing through... One already has my leg! Leggo! Willya! Arrgh.....

*impatient frown* All right, my turn to say I�m outa here.

Oh.

We just wanted to get a better vantage point without getting anything on us. It appeared to be a long one, so I can with provisions...not anything to create a topic about...and now I see we might have to provide our own entertainment since everyone took their toys and went away.

And all because I asked if I should still stay out of the conversation... I guess I shouldn't have asked...

I am glad you did....

well, this was the wrong place for that topic anyway. glad you stayed, wer!

I don't think it was a negative discussion for the topic (you know how we wander, Wolf...) and of course I stayed, I do like to watch, dontcha know! It is just sometimes I shouldn't interrupt, and I still haven't figured that timing out...

....me, too....*smile*

Oh gosh, Wer, next time don't just let me stand in a discussion like this alone as sole representative of the male species. This subject especially needs many opinions and must bring agreements based on a large demographic base. Or whatever. Also, I do like to hear your opinion. I may not have said so explicitly, but I really do (but I'll save everybody my "Wer, don't just post so short responses!"-whine; I guess I'll save that for a special occassion)! Plus I don't do so well as typical male speciman. As soon as they find out I have a curious sense of humour AND can't dance, pouf! they're gone! .={

I have that same problem, Alexander...

...big feet? But then, YOU draw crowds... Must be the earrings...

You are both wrong in your accessment of your abilities, but I shall keep that little secret safe...Poor Alexander - left twisting in the wind...hardly seems fair.

Thanks for the sympathy. Sweet dreams, everybody! Good night, Johnboy! (21:42 h, and tired like whatever)

big feet...yep...wear American size 13...g'night!

size 13? i didn't mean negative conversation, just that it needed to be explored with more depth in order to appreciate all the opinions and experience. our topic tangents don't really facilitate that. (IMMHO *grin*) what i'm saying is, social typecasts should have a conference of it's very own (i'm not a volunteer for hosting priviledges). well, that's coming out all wrong. does anybody know what i'm trying to spit out? i'm just saying feminism, suffrage, bias, bigotry, and all those social issues should have i 's own topic. and i'm not saying social issues don't have a bearing on our bioregion either. and i'm not saying that bigotry, bias, suffrage, and feminism are all looked at with the same intensity or even related to each other. just that all of those were the best examples i could come up with for social issues. got that? any questions? (oh, i shouldn't have asked) *smile and hugs to all*

Yup - belongs in Cultures or somewhere else - not in a Conference I really wanted to be about things Geo. Thanks for pointing this out. It happens all over the place where friends meet in Spring...but it is not of interest to those seeking information the topic purportedly delivers.

yep, Wolf, 13...that's why I hate so much putting them in my mouth... and why I look for "environmentally conscious" hiking boots (said to get back near topic...)

Let's hear it for those hiking boots. I hope they have thick soles - you would not like them melting on the fresh hot lava...

Feminism is not a social issue only. Women�s situation on this planet is a crucial question in many bioregions.....like I said way back, many environmental catastrophes are actually caused by inequality between people. You just can�t separate social issues/social structures and environmental issues from each other, if you do that you won�t understand things as a whole.

Elena, this is true, and at the deepest elemental level, all of The Spring's topics are related and thus be dumped into the same conference. There is nothing we do that is not somehow affecting Earth, other people and raw materials available. But, that would make libraries harder to browse, and The Spring almost impossible to navigate. There must be a place for discussing the living as opposed to the inert. I will open a topic for you wherever you'd like it. Just let me know. (Bioregions I thought w s how to protect the one in which you live - as we did originally...)

I will open a topic for you Um......I feel like needing to point out that it was not me who mentioned feminism first in this topic!!! Bioregions I thought was how to protect the one in which you live Exactly. It�s just that social problems (and yes, many other things too) clearly correlate with it! What I�m saying is, if we really want to understand what�s going on in our bioregions, and especially WHY it�s happening and what to do about it, we shouldn�t discuss it out of context, it�s pointless.

Marcia, I don�t want to argue with you, it�s clear that we see things a bit differently here. I hope you can go on with your discussion now and stop discussing what is the right thing to discuss! :-)

Hello? Excuse me? Could we find a middle way somewhere here? My personal problems with discussing stuff all over the place is not a kweftion of propriety, but that I find stuff hard to find again... Know what I mean? E.g. I care a lot about films, real reel-to-reel stuff. We discussed it in Record Collecting, but will I remember that later? When I try to find something somebody said on topic that I want to go back to? Or see what I said then? Of course it all should have belonged into the Film topic in Collecting first place; it just happened to have started somewhere else. Nobody involved complained about the suggestion to continue it in "Film", and I'm sure they'll be there, too.- Back to the issue here - I think it's great this exchange of ideas started up. I would love to see it continue. Perhaps there's new tricks for an old dog, so to speak. So, let's go on - but does it have to be here? Elena, please take a look at this, and see if you feel comfortable there: http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/read/cultures/28 .

Thank you, My dear Alexander for setting this up and posting the link. I shall go to film...I already posted there once...and planning to return immediately.

My bioregion is being changed as I sit here. A group of Samoans (very large and strong people) have descended on our Areca Palms framing the perimeter of the yard and are cutting the tall ones out. They must have cut 100 of them so far and are hauling them away - a huge job for us, but easy for them. Now, my shaded deep red plumeria can bloom again and I can make leis as I sit on the floor with my flower-collecting bucket in front of me and my lei needle strung with thin twine. There is something very oul satifying in making leis for others who will be delighted to have them around their necks adding a special frangrance which to me means Hawaii.

Well! You have offered leis to several of us in Drool, Marcia, but I didn't know you made them yourself! :-)

Selecting and stringing the flowers is a very important part of lei-giving. Since it is a token of love and affection (Aloha!), it is appropriate to make one from start to finished garland, if one has the time and flowers available. It is a pleasure to do so!

A group of Samoans (very large and strong people) have descended on our Areca Palms framing the perimeter of the yard and are cutting the tall ones out Please send your Samoans over to my house. My neighborhood organization sent some thugs over in the middle of the night and planted another tree in front of my house (on the parkway, which technically doesn't belong to me) that is effectively blocking what few rays of sun my frontyard needs. It is truly a boring tree, a poplar, whose only attribute (to them) is that it grows quickly. It has neither spring interest (flowers) nor fall interest (color change). I tell all dogowners to let their pets make ull use of it, but it survives...

My Dear...there are ways to kill poplar trees. Round up all the ice you can muster - a bucket full if you have it. Sneak out in the nmight and heap it around the root base. The sudden chill will shock the tree to death and by morning all evidence will have disappeared!

Ice? Do you forget where I live? Maybe ice will scare a tree to death in Hawaii, but not here! ;-D Actually, the last year, I poured a cannister of this root stuff that you are supposed to pour down your toilets to kill tree roots which invade our sewer pipes. When I noticed that the granules were not dissolving, I thought some dog might come around and eat some of it, so I removed it all. The tree's root ball is protected by some kind of tarp too! This winter I'm covering the base with a bag of sidewalk salt! Also, someone suggested a copper nail, but I was never able to find that.

Yes...yes, I know...it does work here for tropical trees...! I am pretty sure a quart of Roundup in a liquid form would not help it very much. Copper nails are a traditional method - just try finding one, though! House Gorilla says roundup would not do it - to use the granular poison and cover it with dirt..may take a little work on your part, and you might be seen. Ask at your local nursery. They have all sorts of that stuff to get rid of nusiance plants. Sorry I cannot come up with a better idea... unting on the web will teach you how to build a nuclear device - perhaps it will tell you how to poison a tree.

I understand and empathize with your problem, Karen, still it shocks me to think of killing a tree...

yeah, but this is a runty little one...not a tree-tree!

Checked out a product called "Stump Out" at the nursery. Unfortunately, you have to drill a hole into the tree to apply. Too obvious a method. The people at the nurseries don't like to tell you how to kill a tree either. Goes against their nature too. It's growing by leaps and bounds. argh!!

I suppose a chain saw is out of the question? How about a drive-by shooting ala Mafia with machine guns? Hmmmm...don't know..checking the net.

You could girdle it....or make a very snug wire around it twisted until it strangles the tree...

that's what i was gonna ask, why don't you chop it down?

...just guessing until Karen can get her to answer for herself, but since the city of Chicago or the county beautification whatever put it there and it is on the median strip between the sidewalk and the street, technically she does not own it...

HAWAII VOLCANOES NATIONAL PARK World Heritage Site/International Biosphere Reserve What does Hawai'i Volcanoes National Park have in common with Germany's Aachen Cathedral, Frances' Palace and Park of Versailles, Australia's Great Barrier Reef, Equador's Galapagos Islands, China's Great Wall and Tanzania's Serengeti National Park? The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization recognized their superlative values and designated them World Heritage sites. Hawai'i Volcanoes' vast lava fields, lush tropical rain forest, and alpine summits offer glimpses into the continuing process of creating land and life. On this volcanic landscape, complex and unique ecosystems and a distinct human culture have evolved. As both a World Heritage Site and International Biosphere Reserve, the park has achieved international recognition for its outstanding values. Learn more about World Heritage Sites in the United States.

From http://www.cr.nps.gov/worldheritage/sites.htm World Heritage Sites in the U.S.

Interesting that most such sites in the US are natural places while most in Europe (if I'm not wrong here) are man-made.

I shall put up the European ones...(I did not know that!)

This is the web page which lists the European and North American sites http://www.unesco.org/whc/nwhc/pages/sites/maplist/euramer.htm This is the World Heritage site for kids http://www.unesco.org/whc/nwhc/pages/kids/main.htm

Thank you for the url. You will notice that Portugal has a few classified sites :-)

I did, Indeed! =)

Borrowed from Travel/Namibia and posted by Maggie originally: --Namibia's Quiver Tree Forest-- If you are travelling in the south of Namibia, be sure to stop and see this natural forest of more than 300 trees growing in an arid area where little else will grow. The forest was declared a national museum in June 1955. These trees (actually not a tree, but an aloe plant - Aloe Dichotoma) are one of the most interesting and characteristic plants of the very hot and dry parts of Namibia. The plant is called a Quiver Tree, because some Bushmen and Hottentot tribes used the tough pliable bark and branches to make quivers for their arrows. Read more about Namibia's Quiver Tree Forest at, http://www.africa.com/namibia/ttd_sa_qt.phtml From ULUNDI http://www.africa.com

Thanks Marcia. Couldn't figure out where else to put it!

*Hugs* Maggie. This is a difficult topic for which to find things which "fit" The quiver tree story is perfect!

AfriCam / Agfa Awards 1999 AGFA Wildlife & Environment Awards The beauty around us (Scenic and Plants) 2nd: Theo Allofs' "Quiver Trees at Sunset" http://www.africam.com/mirror/special_content/agfa/1999/16.html

African Plant Life (http://africancultures.about.com/culture/africancultures/library/weekly/aa100699a.htm) Of the total land area of the continent, forests cover about one-fifth; woodlands, bushlands, grasslands, and thickets about two-fifths; and deserts and their extended margins the remaining two-fifths. Africa's vegetation had always been controlled by the interactions of climate; geology, soil, and groundwater conditions; and the activities of animals and later humans. The greater part of the reduction of Africa's natural vegetation has happened in the last 2,000 years. Pastoralism, agriculture, the rapid growth of human and livestock populations, the expansion of cities and towns, and the external demands for primary resources have made ever-greater demands upon the land for sustenance and perceived economic betterment. Within the tropical forests and woodlands, fire undoubtedly has been the great human agent of clearance and degradation. Hunters, pastoralists, and cultivators have all fired the land for centuries and have gathered wild foodstuffs, thatch timber for construction, and fuelwood. The long-term effects of such activity bear directly upon the debated question of the origin of the savannas.