] And oh I agree with you Amy, our kids are so easy to live with, is this unconditionnal love? and why aren't we allowing it with our supposed equals? ____ I don't know, Johanne. Maybe it's this: there is a measure of "I wish you were different" between parent and child, but it's okay. The feeling can exist along with tons of love. When your partner feels this way it hurts more. It's scorn, and takes up the place once occupied by love.

with our parents/kids, we live with what we get - but our "choice" seems to be tied in with the fear of its changing, having been wrong, the chosen one's selecting another,...yeah, the unconditional thing

It struck me how the Collinses' marriage has exactly these features- of a large enough house, couple spending time in different rooms busily and contentedly, etc. We may decry the rationale of their marriage initially, and find at least Mr. Collins to be a bit ludicrous and certainly unromantic, yet they DO seem to be a rather well-adjusted pair and living along some of our own guidelines, no?

] rather well-adjusted pair and living along some of our own guidelines, no? __ Good point, Wendy. But... but. but.....but

] rather well-adjusted pair and living along some of our own guidelines, no? __ [Amy]Good point, Wendy. But... but. but.....but _____ But, I do not think that Jane Austen wanted us to like Mr Collins, or to think that Charlotte made the right decision in marrying him. I suppose we can, however, repect the fact that Charlotte is making the best of her situation. (Still, when I think of them in bed, it does make my skin crawl!)

Exactly so: Miss Austen ironically showed us the Collinses, a probably even then realistic marriage, with a shake of her spinster's head AND then proceeds to shower more favorable descriptions and romance on other couples, without ever showing us how such "better" couples would survive the ordeals of actual daily married life and keep up that idyllic passionate and sentimental fervor... maybe because even she, JA, did not know if/how such was done successfully for long... (I am naturally playing the devil's advocate here, having myself dared all for love and marrying a man against parental wishes, etc.; we are still married today, after several other sibling marriages have foundered on both sides, though it takes great commitment and constantly further maturing to do so. Love is wonderful, and a child can help it bloom even more, but we too find the need for a little time apart in the days' togetherness.)

Was the Collins' marriage so different from the Bennet's (only rather reversed)?

The Collins' didn't have what I suppose there was at first : lust

Mrs Bennet was supposed to have been a beauty.

oh yeah, good point ewww - the thought of anyone lusting after Mr. Collins - ewwww Actually, in P&P2, Mary seems to be obviously enraptured by everything he says, seems to be dashed when he asks Lizzy for the first dances, probably the closest thing to lust any woman would ever feel toward him

Ok! Somebody get the DUCK TAPE!!

I know this has come up on the Board before, but I do wonder how Darcy and Lizzy fare AFTER their marriage. With such diametrically opposed personalities, could they really live Happily Ever After? Or is this where romance fiction leaves off, and reality begins. . .

I know this has come up on the Board before, but I do wonder how Darcy and Lizzy fare AFTER their marriage. With such diametrically opposed personalities, could they really live Happily Ever After? Or is this where romance fiction leaves off, and reality begins. . . __ Oh good, Amy2. Let's do a new topic on this. I am afraid I have an idea or two some will not like.

Mr and Mrs Collins had no real regard for each other, beyond convenience, isn't that the material point?

#113 I know this has come up on the Board before, but I do wonder how Darcy and Lizzy fare AFTER their marriage. With such diametrically opposed personalities, could they really live Happily Ever After? Or is this where romance fiction leaves off, and reality begins. . . My reluctant vote is that reality will set in, with all its attendant problems. This was discussed somewhat in "The Happiest Couple in the Whole Austen Valley" thread in the Austen Archives (actually, maybe it's still active, just not being posted to).

Amy2:I know this has come up on the Board before, but I do wonder how Darcy and Lizzy fare AFTER their marriage. With such diametrically opposed personalities, could they really live Happily Ever After? Or is this where romance fiction leaves off, and reality begins. . . My own feeling is that they fare very well after their marriage. Once their big lesson is learnt (his re: not being so proud, hers so prejudiced) they are open to each other. He learns to share his concerns with Lizzie, while she learns how to fit into his upper-class world from him. I think they really do support, help, and enjoy each other. All the various sequals that have him not telling her his plans rather annoy me--I'm especially thinking of Tennant's Pemberley and the second book. I think he is glad finally to have a confidante and would therefore be unlikely to keep anything from Lizzie. I can even see them happy in old age, sharing their memories together. Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic - but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

Brava, Inko! I agree---what makes P&P so perfect is that two strong characters adapt in a manner in which both change for the better, yet neither is humbled. The only way Lizzie and Darcy could have had an unsuccessful marriage is if Lizzie had (for,I suppose, mercenary reasons) accepted Darcy's first proposal. Without the changes both underwent that would have been a doomed marriage! Imagine, she would have not realized his worth and he would have considered his marriage a degradation. Not at all co ducive to connubial happiness!

[ I think he is glad finally to have a confidante and would therefore be unlikely to keep anything from Lizzie.] I am of this view, as well. I really think what he was (maybe even unconsciously) 'looking for' was someone to be intimate with, and she is just such a person. Further, this couple more than many is very likely to deal with 'reality' without a great deal of trouble.

Yes, they dealt pretty successfully with the reality of Lydia's "infamous elopement" and the unpleasant attributes of many of their intimates -- Mrs. Bennet, Sir William Lucas, Mr. Collins, Lady C., etc. But with one partner so naturally high-spirited and prone to satirizing everything, and the other basically "grave & serious", WILL THEY be able to get along on a daily basis? Or will they get on each other's nerves? I do wonder. . .

I don't think Elizabeth will get on Darcy's nerves. He seems to me, in his being so drawn to her for instance, to WISH to be around someone more outgoing and witty. That does not mean that he will ever be that way himself, but some of us do not need or wish to be around someone just like ourselves. I certainly do not think the Elizabeth/Darcy combination is in anyway incompatible. If anyone of the two is likely to get on anyone's nerves, it is more likely that Darcy will get on Elizabeth's. But we know that she is of a disposition to be very accepting of people the way they are overall. I am sure there would have been times when Jane got on her nerves, and certainly her mother and younger sisters did. But this never caused her general discontentment.

I'm thinking of instances were Darcy wishes to be serious, and Lizzie might be making light of a subject he thinks is "inappropriate." Just grasping here. . .

Amy2:I'm thinking of instances were Darcy wishes to be serious, and Lizzie might be making light of a subject he thinks is "inappropriate." Just grasping here. . . Lizzie had a very strong instinct for what is serious and what isn't; she noticed all her family's improprieties when they occurred, though she might not have given them so much weight at Darcy did, since she was used to them. Also, she knew exactly what Lydia's elopement meant for her family. I don't think Darcy would ever have any complaint about her being inappropriately frivolous!

I'm thinking of instances were Darcy wishes to be serious, and Lizzie might be making light of a subject he thinks is "inappropriate." Just grasping here. Well, did she show herself to be annoying in the book - make light of something when another person was in ill humor and in to mood for it? This all goes to judgment and maturity, I think.

In her relationship with Darcy, I think their differing feelings contributed to this. When they talk about the nature of evil at Netherfield, he's quite serious & uncomfortable; she really doesn't care, because "she's never desired his good opinion." Likewise, at Rosings, I think he's seriously trying to determine if "50 miles of good road" is too long a distance to be settled from her family -- he's quite serious & worried about the subject; she couldn't care less, and only applies it to her friend Cha lotte. Not that I fault her for this: it's just that he's coming from the P.O.V. of a man in love; she, of a woman who can't stand him.

Also, Amy, at Rosings Lizzie is thinking of Jane and Bingley (at Netherfield) being too close to Longbourne. She had no idea that Darcy had designs on her; she couldn't stand him and thought he felt the same way about her. At Netherfield, I think she was just trying to prick some holes in his "pride" which everyone had noticed at the first assembly.