When else had they actually touched up to this point? The dance at Netherfield; when he handed her into her carriage; anything else?

Such discipline that Darcy displays in his courtship of Elizabeth is to be admired even if, to most of us, it seems too difficult . It surely is an example of courtship where the two young people's virtues are stronger than their passions.

Yes, it is, Donald. And I, for one, think it is absolutely exciting. It makes the moments of a little touching and tender looks all that more adorable. And Amy, I can't think of any other time they touch. Although as long as I have read the book (over 20 years), I had always thought that after Darcy proposed the second time he pounced her. "The happiness which this reply produced was such as he had never felt before, and he expressed himself on the occasion as sensibly and as warmly as a man violently in love can be supposed to do. Had Elizabeth been able to encounter his eyes, she might have seen how well the expression of heartfelt delight diffused over his face became him..." But I guess at that time that is doubtful. Just when was it acceptable to kiss back then? Was is not OK once you were engaged? Does anybody know the real answer? So do you think Darcy kissed Elizabeth before the wedding?

Yes, it is, Donald. And I, for one, think it is absolutely exciting. It makes the moments of a little touching and tender looks all that more adorable. And Amy, I can't think of any other time they touch. Although as long as I have read the book (over 20 years), I had always thought that after Darcy proposed the second time he pounced her. "The happiness which this reply produced was such as he had never felt before, and he expressed himself on the occasion as sensibly and as warmly as a man violently in love can be supposed to do. Had Elizabeth been able to encounter his eyes, she might have seen how well the expression of heartfelt delight diffused over his face became him..." But I guess at that time that is doubtful. Just when was it acceptable to kiss back then? Was is not OK once you were engaged? Does anybody know the real answer? So do you think Darcy kissed Elizabeth before the wedding?

] So do you think Darcy kissed Elizabeth before the wedding? Yes!

I agree whole-heartedly with Anna, I am sure there was plenty of snogging going on before the wedding! *sigh* :-)

Agree, agree -- and on the day of the Darcy's second proposal Bingley suggested going for a walk because he wanted to be alone w/ Jane (and they lagged behind, rather than going on ahead), so I am sure that they found some private moments as well.

For an account of one of those private moments, make a visit to the Creative Writings on the Firth page and read the two chapters called 'Eliza and Darcy take a Second Walk'. Verrrry romantic!

Thanks for the tip, Mary.

Mary: I went to the Creative Writings on the Firth page last night and I did not see these two chapters! Can you give me a little more direction? I saw a lot of Pride and Prejudice, the Mucial, but not the Second Walk.

Wouldn't the walled garden (where Elizabeth has her confrontation with Lady Catherine) have made a terrific spot for a bit of snogging? Just duck in and head for that lovely out-of-sight (of the house) corner!!!

No doubt about it, Margaret!

]Sharon: "Mary: I went to the Creative Writings on the Firth page last night and I did not see these two chapters! Can you give me a little more direction? I saw a lot of Pride and Prejudice, the Mucial, but not the Second Walk." Sharon -- instead of Creative Writings, click on More Colin and then click on Scenes Left Out of P&P. Enjoy. : )

Yup, that "pretty sort of wilderness" could be the setting for something more pleasant than Lady Catherine!!

Yeah, but you have two couples competing for that spot.

Sharon: Yeah, but you have two couples competing for that spot. yeah, but they're sisters, they are used to sharing! ;-)

Cheryl -- will Lizzie & Jane share only the lovely space, or do you envision them sharing more?! (a menage a quatre would not be quite proper, would it?) ;-)

]yeah, but they're sisters, they are used to sharing! ;-)

Had I ever so much as suspected that Cheryl would tangent off into this group idea, I should never have invited her to bathe with me and Mr Darcy.

]Had I ever so much as suspected that Cheryl would tangent off into this group idea, I should never have invited her to bathe with me and Mr Darcy. Amy, this shouldn't come as a total surprise to you. And just how big is that tub, anyway?

Maybe they can all go to Bath and luxuriate in the hot tub together!

Yeeaaahhh, Amy!

Come on in Myretta. It is a pond-sized tub.

Just coming on this thread, but couldn't believe the omission of the fencing scene in favorite P&P2 scenes ( I shall conquer this!) Ladies, he was WET! I agree that the end was anticlimactic and I expected more also. The kiss was out of place, and it appeared that Elizabeth initiated it. HORRORS in those days. Pretty sad if it was the first snog.

' Pretty sad if it was the first snog. ' If it was, that is probably why SHE initiated it!

]If it was, that is probably why SHE initiated it! a palpable hit!

I still belive that the fencing scene shows his struggle to overcome his 'ungentlemanly behavior'. When they come to the second proposal he tells her that he knew she though him devoid of every human feeling. In the book they go on to discuss their feelings in the interim, after the rejected proposal (on his side) and the letter (on her side), and he says; ``My object then,'' replied Darcy, ``was to shew you, by every civility in my power, that I was not so mean as to resent the past; and I hoped to obt in your forgiveness, to lessen your ill opinion, by letting you see that your reproofs had been attended to. How soon any other wishes introduced themselves I can hardly tell, but I believe in about half an hour after I had seen you.'' Surely he didn't expect to ever see her again, but he respected her (enough to ask her to marry him!), and after consideration, took her criticisms to heart and tried to improve his behavior, even though they had cost him (he thought) the woman he loved. Of course, if he had not done so, without doing it for the sake of winning her, Austen would not have brought them back together. His improvement had to be 'disinterested' in order for him to earn his 'reward'. This is one speech that Austen actually wrote that I would dearly have loved to have heard our CF deliver! Especially the last sentence... how sweet!

'and tried to improve his behavior, even though they had cost him (he thought) the woman he loved.' Ahhhaawwwwww! He is so CUTE!

Mari, you may be right, but I still think the line: "I shall conquer this!" refers to his passion for Lizzie.

Yes, Amy2, if he was talking about changing his behavior, he would have said something different than his passionate "I shall conquer this!" Something more bland, like "I can improve my character. I can, I can!" Nope, I think he might have been thinking about a cooling dip in that pond about then, not how to be a better person.

My interpretation of Darcy's line: "I shall conquer this!" agrees with Amy2. It was my first impression January-96 and still is. I believe this would be the usual behavior of a man who has been turned down by a women. His pride would demand that he get over it and forget her. After all, there are plenty of other marriageable young ladies in his world. The fact that his feelings for Elizabeth remain so very strong (how else can you explain the dramatic change in his manners and amiability) leads me to believe that his love, not just his passion, for her is indeed very deep. So deep, that despite all his strong sense of pride, he is willing to humble himself before her.

My thoughts exactly Donald

Donald wrote: //believe that his love, not just his passion, for her is indeed very deep. So deep, that despite all his strong sense of pride, he is willing to humble himself before her. // Oh, yes and this is what makes him so precious to us! Is he not one in a thousand? No wonder our esteem in/of(?) him is so profound. To have all those inner qualities ...and on top of that, such an appearance to please the eye ;-) .

"I can improve my character. I can, I can!" LOL...if he had said that I think I would have tuned out.

I think the show would have played more like an episode of PILGRIM'S PROGRESS!

"I shall conquer this!" variations on a line's interpretation... -all the above, or -Darcy struggling to remove his fencing glove that sweat had glued to his palm, or -Darcy exercising valiantly to reduce the extra weight caused by his bingeing after Lizzy's rejection, or -Darcy debating which helping verb is correct to use in his sentence structure (Der Nutty Herr Professor strikes again...)

LOL France! Haven't seen you in a while, nice to have you back! ;-)

My favorite P&P2 romantic scenes: Above all, CF fencing-I shall conquer this! I shall! I also love the scene where they meet again at Pemberley and he asks her if she's pleased: Your good opinion is rarely bestowed and therefore more worth the earning. Cf's really turns on the charm here. AS well, I like the scene at Rosings Park when Elizabeth is playing the piano. We neither of us perform to strangers. Good look here too; Col Fitz knows he's intruding!

How much does Col. Fitzwilliam know of his cousin's feelings, do you think?

I think if Darcy confides in anyone about such things, it is with Fitzwilliam.

] How much does Col. Fitzwilliam know of his cousin's feelings, do you think? I've always wondered about that; I agree that Darcy would confide in the Colonel, if in anyone. I also get the impression that the Colonel knows Darcy better than most. He is slightly older, so doesn't look up to Darcy in the way Bingley and Georgiana do and they seem to have spent time together as boys. Colonel Fitzwilliam may well have noticed Darcy's confusion even if Darcy hadn't confided in him.

I agree with Anna. Col. Fitz does know Darcy better than just about anyone and they must have constant contact because of being co-guardians of Georgiana and co-executors of Mr. Darcy's will. Even if Darcy never said a word, I think Col. Fitz would see a difference in mood. And he did say "he had heard much" of Lizzie, so he must have suspected something!

From the book I did not get the impression that the good Colonel knew much of anything about Lizzie before meeting her. (The "I've heard much of you" line was not in the novel.) In fact, he seemed to be flirting a great deal with Lizzie, which would surprise me if he knew of Darcy's attraction.

re 143: I agree with Kathleen's impression of the book v P&P2; in the video I think Fitzwilliam suspected something before Rosings (maybe that was part of the reason they cut the bit about Fitzwilliam being prevented only by 'poverty' from going after Lizzy himself). I do think that Fitzwilliam would have suspected something after the first proposal in both the book and in P&P2.

Yes, Anna, that seems quite right -- the Colonel would have noticed that Darcy was a mess. Darcy was so upset about Lizzie's refusal, and all the things she said, I am certain he could not appear with complete composure on the trip w/ Col Fitzwilliam (to London?)

I don't think Darcy gives out details at all. He did not name names (Jane's) when he told Fitzwilliam about busting it up with Bingley. So he probably never mentioned Elizabeth all until they got to Rosings. At Rosings he could have warned Fitzwilliam off of Elizabeth though without letting on to his own interest in her by mentioning her lack of fortune. I can't decide who most likely told Fitzwilliam about Elizabeth - Darcy or Lady C.

Sharon - Based on the novel, either one but probably Darcy. I don't think Lady C. would have considered Lizzy noteworthy enough to mention to the Colonel.

Good points all! In the book DARCY'S STORY, the author makes Georgianna Darcy's confidante in matters of love, as opposed to the Colonel, which is an interesting choice. But I agree that Fitz _must have_ noticed Darcy's discomposure after Proposal #1 and thereafter. Just as Jane surely would have noticed Lizzy's if she hadn't confided in her!

But in the end of the book, Jane does not notice Lizzy! Jane never realises that Lizzy's opinion of Mr. D has changed until Lizzy tells her. She discusses it with Bingley and they decide it is impossible. Jane is not suspicious of other people's feelings, but takes them as they are openly given.

[ DARCY'S STORY, the author makes Georgianna Darcy's confidante in matters of love,] I am going to hold my comments on this one until everyone else has had a chance to read the book. [Jane never realises that Lizzy's opinion of Mr. D has changed until Lizzy tells her.] Very true, Ann. So if Elizabeth would keep the situation under wraps, Darcy is much more likely to. Even if probed, it is hard to imagine him sharing what is probably the most personally private, painful, and humuliating details of being turned down.

I agree that Darcy would not willingly discuss the events w/ his cousin. However, I do think that the good Colonel would notice that Darcy was under some emotional strain. He tells Elizabeth that Darcy has put off their departure date at least once, so he might start to put 2 and 2 together.

I think that Fitzwilliam was likely to notice Darcy's state of mind because they were together immediately after the proposal, when Darcy was still in a state of turmoil. Jane didn't see Lizzy until several weeks later, by which time she had gotten her feelings under control.

You all are probably right as far as the book is concerned. But in any of the P&P dramatizations, when anyone even mentions "Mr. Darcy" around Lizzy after Proposal #1, she acts like she's going to burst out of her skin! So I'm going to accord Jane the sensitivity of realizing that something is amiss if her own sister is acting so jumpy! I'm referring particuarly to when Lydia spills the beans about Darcy being the Best Man at her wedding. Listen to the way Ehle says: "Mr. _Darcy_?" And all of her agon zing about losing his good opinion in P&P2.

I'm with you Amy2, Jane must have suspected something, anything, Lizzy was way to obvious. But what strikes me though is that Jane looks like she just doesn't get it, no reactions, no questions, no implied allusions to anything. Only perhaps her slight smile when Lizzy says Darcy was there when she received news of Lydia's elopment.

Also, Jane's reaction when Bingley and Darcy return to Hertfordshire and call on the Bennet's. She has too much of a smile on her face if she still thinks Lizzy doesn't care for Darcy.

Jane was basically incapable of suspicion - and also, at the time of Bingley's return to Netherfield, much too preoccupied with her own feelings and emotions to be particularly observant of anyone else's.

[ So I'm going to accord Jane the sensitivity of realizing that something is amiss if her own sister is acting so jumpy!] In the book, what Jane did know was a) Elizabeth turned down the proposal; b) that Elizabeth was uncomfortable about having prejudged Mr. Darcy; and when Darcy was coming to Longbourn with Bingley, that Elizabeth was about to face the guy she turned down. Jane could have attrubuted Elizebeth's nervousness to these things.

Did Jane know that Lizzy had already bumped into Mr. Darcy at Pemberley? Or was everyone too caught up in the Lydia Fiasco at that point to mention it?

Yes, Lizzie told Jane. Jane's reply "Mr. Darcy knows of our troubles"? Lizzie "He happen upon me while I was reading your letter".

But I do not believe that Lizzy said this in the book. Lizzy tells Jane very little of what happened at Pemberley, because she does not want to mention Bingley's name. When Lizzy tells Jane that she & Darcy are engaged, Jane ends their dialogue saying, "But Lizzy, you have been very sly, very reserved with me. How little did you tell me of what passed at Pemberley and Lambton! I owe all that I know of it, to another, not to you." Then Lizzy shares the information about Darcy helping Lydia.

[I owe all that I know of it, to another, not to you.] I always thought this 'other' was Bingley, although it could have been Aunt Gardiner. Before this, Jane had said somthing to the effect of she and Bingley had talked of the possibility of an Elizabeth/Darcy combination, but had decided it not possible. What do you think?

I think Jane meant that she had heard about Lizzie being at Pemberley from Bingley after their engagement. Which would have led them to talk about Darcy and Lizzie, and Jane probably telling Bingley that Lizzie didn't care for Darcy and that it was impossible. She didn't see the Gardiners after her engagement and there was no mention of her writing to them, so I think JA intended us to believe it was Bingley who was this 'other'.

Yes, I agree that the 'other' is Bingley. In the second part of the novel (after Pemberley), Lizzy has no one to confide in and wrestles with her feelings for Darcy by herself.

I do like the fact that Jane serves as more of a confidante in P&PII than she does in the book. It makes Lizzie's struggles less lonely (and more dramatic).

Amy2, it would have been very boring if they hadn't made Jane Lizzie's confidante in P&PII--it would have meant Lizzie sitting by herself and talking to herself. That's where AD did such a good job of translating thoughts into talk. I liked it too.

Absolutely. We got to avoid all voiceovers (a pet peeve of mine).

Not all voiceovers are a Bad Thing. They can be used very effectively. Some examples that leap to mind: Regina Taylor's in I'll Fly Away - the voice of the adult "Kevin" in The Wonder Years - Claire Danes' and others in My So-Called Life - Scully's in last week's episode of X-files - but they can also easily be overused, and given the percentage of plot in P&P that took place in letters and private thinking, using voice over for these would result in a very static pro uction - and was one of the flaws in the screenplay in P&P1.

Not all voiceovers are a Bad Thing. They can be used very effectively. Some examples that leap to mind: Regina Taylor's in I'll Fly Away - the voice of the adult "Kevin" in The Wonder Years - Claire Danes' and others in My So-Called Life - Scully's in last week's episode of X-files - but they can also easily be overused, and given the percentage of plot in P&P that took place in letters and private thinking, using voice over for these would result in a very sta ic production - and was one of the flaws in the screenplay in P&P1.

Joan, too -- was the second posting the voiceover? ;=p

Yes, and I think it was read by James Earl Jones. I guess I was thinking of that horrific voiceover in BLADE RUNNER when Harrison Ford sounded as thrilled to deliver the lines as we were to hear them. And many bad & terrible sf films make use of this device; to wit, DUNE.

was the second posting the voiceover? ;=p hee hee hee - must have been... I cannot account for it otherwise. The Ghost Poster strikes again.

To those who love romance, help me. As I watch P&P2 for the umpteenth time, I am desparately searching for the romance in the dance between Lizzy and Darcy at Netherfield. When he asks her to dance, he seems anxious and even slightly pleasant. However, during the dance he is so severe! He only smiles ever so slightly when he asks Lizzy about walking to Meryton with her sisters. Most of his other responses are extremely sarcastic. For some reason in these scenes at Netherfield, he frightens me.

He makes me want to hit him over the head with a bat.

I was vexed with this scene as well, Karen and Kali. I wish they had included more of the novel here: " she made some slight observationon the dance. He replied, and was again silent. After a pause . . she addressed him a second time with 'It is your turn to say something now . . .' He smiled, and assured her that whatever she wished him to say should be said." Also, in the novel they have more of a conversation after Sir William interrupts them, including Darcy trying to make small talk (about books!). So he wasn't a complete stick/jerk at this point in the book. Ahh, well, I shall reread the book with visions of Darcy/Firth in my head.

But do you realise that this is first time they actually touch in P&P2? I mean admitedly she's wearing gloves, but they do get to hold hands...

[ but they do get to hold hands...] And after the dance, they hold hands as he escorts her to the side of the room - ooohhhh, aaaaahh! I think Davies probable means for us to see Darcys' manner two different ways at two different times. One way initially, when he asks her and they dance, and then in a new light much later, after we know he ardently admires and loves her. When we look back on it, we can then attribute his manner to being REALLY, REALLY nervous about approaching her (thus he does so hurriedly and stiffly - with his heart probably in his throat); and during the dance he just doesn't know HOW to begin a conversatio , and is a little afraid to (but all the while he is probable wracking his brains for something meaningful to say). When I look back on it, I really feel for the guy.

He also is torn between very much wanting to dance with her, and not wanting to. He is falling in love, but he doesn't want to be. That tension is acute during the dance.

He also is torn between very much wanting to dance with her, and not wanting to. He is falling in love, but he doesn't want to be. That tension is acute during the dance. Ann, I think your definition is closer to my feeling. Darcy can't stand to not be with her, but he is also very ambivalent about his feelings for her. I thought this scene showed that very well.

Karen: As I watch P&P2 for the umpteenth time, I am desparately searching for the romance in the dance between Lizzy and Darcy at Netherfield. I don't see much romance here either, but I do shudder deliciously at the erotic suggestion in this very formal dance. L & D are still battling it out, as they had earlier during Lizzy's stay at Netherfield, but their sparring is now shown in physical terms, and the sparks flying between this gorgeous, strong-willed man and woman make the dance sexier than any waltz would have been. Even though their relationship doesn't "progress" in this scene, I love the contrast between the way they join hands at th beginning and at the end: when they start, their gloved hands reach the camera at the same moment, and you think of drawn swords. At the end, Darcy extends his hand to Lizzy in such a gentle way, and she accepts it so quietly, that you know that there is going to be more of this in the future. As Sharon says, "ooohhhh, aaaaahh!" When he asks her to dance, he seems anxious and even slightly pleasant. However, during the dance he is so severe! I think we've discussed this before, but this is mostly Lizzy's fault. Even Davies's truncated dialog has Lizzy being deliberately pert and provoking. Poor Darcy didn't stand a chance.

Anne3 - "I think we've discussed this before, but this is mostly Lizzy's fault. Even Davies's truncated dialog has Lizzy being deliberately pert and provoking. Poor Darcy didn't stand a chance." I know she is provoking him but he is not amused. Even at Netherfield (before the ball), he would occassionally smile after he'd make a harsh remark. At the ball, he keeps rolling his eyes at everything she says. I have to agree with Kali's comment (about hitting him) and Kathleen's comment (following the novel more closely and have him nicer). If he were a bit nicer at times (flashing the camera a devilish, little grin and then go back to trying to be composed), I could have felt that he was tornup a out his feelings.

Rolling his eyes?

] He only smiles ever so slightly when he asks Lizzy about walking to Meryton with her sisters. __ I know this whole "On foot?" thing was not in the book. But it does fit Darcy. When Firth gives that little smile of amusement, I am torn between hating Darcy for ridiculing Lizzy, and somehow finding the amusement strangely exciting. Why should this be so?

Karen: I know she is provoking him but he is not amused. Even at Netherfield (before the ball), he would occassionally smile after he'd make a harsh remark. Expecting Darcy to be amused assumes that he should find Lizzy's raillery to be cute rather than annoying. In the book, everything is told through Lizzy's consciousness, so we find her remarks as adorable as she finds them herself. Remember, though, that she later learns how wrong she was, how unfair to Darcy and indulgent to herself. She says, "I meant to be uncommonly clever in taking so decided a dislike to him, without any reason. It is such a spur to one's genius, such an opening for wit to have dislike of that kind." If Darcy hadn't been so infatuated with her, he would have been quite justified in being annoyed at her constant verbal jabs. Darcy's smiles, in the book, were I think Austen's way of showing us his feelings, since she doesn't make us privy to them in any other way. In the film, Davies chose to show Darcy's feelings in other ways.

Regarding Mr. Darcy's smiles: In the book...when Lizzie is at Pemberly and sees Mr. Darcy's portrait, "and she beheld a striking resemblance of Mr. Darcy, with such a smile over the face, as she remembered to have sometimes seen when he looked at her."