Kali - 'I can't believe it. Only one reaction...and from Cass to boot, who's already converted to Northamism...Are you guys all DEAD????!!! ;)' Not dead, just speechless....stunned...at a loss for words...can't catch my breath.....

Good save, Carolyn. I'll let you live, but only becuase I love you! ;)

Lynn, speaking of the $ for the 6-video set, watch closely. My dearest hubby got me a set for Christmas for a mere $60. He hasn't seen me since.

'Good save, Carolyn. I'll let you live, but only becuase I love you! ;)' Oh Kali! What dreadful death do you envisage for me? and will the punishment fit the crime??? But hang on..... I have nothing to fear.....I must be dead already!

Kali : re 100 : you have no faults of understanding :) underneath my trying to be just, I do agree very much with you

and I'm not afraid of you :)

Johanne: ;) Hilary: GOTCHA!!! ;-P

I really liked the actress who played Jane Fairfax in this EMMA. Has anyone read the Aiken novel, JANE FAIRFAX? Is it any good?

Cindy - thanks for the tip. I will keep watching - I do all the mail for the library, so I usually check all the video catalogs. My DH volunteered to get PP2 for"us" for our anniversary - is that love or what?! My boss is borrowing my tape of Emma, and she loves it so far - she's hasn't seen the Miramax version because she says she doesn't want to see an American trying to do a British accent--I though GP did well with the accent - any British who agree? I agree, that we shouldn't be too hard on MS - he did do well with what he was given.

Mrs. Elton's accent in the new Emma is far more annoying than Paltrow's in the Miramax Emma. Even the Brits said Paltrow did a good job with it. I agree with the person who said it sounded as though Mrs. E. was a Brit trying to fake an American accent.

I watched the whole thing again last night, and I think I'm now convinced that the biggest problems I have are with the choice of scenes - whether that be the screenplay or the editing, I don't know. Of course Knightley comes off negatively, all the time he's chastising Emma and we rarely get to see him doing anything else. We spent sooo much time with her and her annoying little Frank. I thought we should see her spending a lot more time with Harriet, and her dad. The chicken theives, the dream sequences (tho' too sappy), even Mr. Knightley's rantings, wouldn't have been such a waste of time if we'd have had more time (like 4 more hoours, maybe?)

'Gotcha' What did you catch Kali?

You REACTED, Hil...that's all I wanted! ;)

Evelyn....what character do you think she played in Anne of Green Gables? The only dark haired girl I remember really is Diana...is it her?

I have now watched Emma3 for the second time (it was a busy week and this was my first chance) and I have changed most of my opinions. First, Mark Strong has now earned my ardent support. I originally thought he was a little too strident, but in watching it again, the only scene where I really felt he went over the top was when he was so upset about Frank going to London to get his hair cut. In the context of the film, Knightley was unhappy because he had cancelled an appointment to meet Frank and the atter could not be bothered to show up because of a haircut. I have to admit that Strong's portrayal in that scene was very un-Knightley-like. However, in other scenes, his actions were appropriate and not inconsistent with the book. When he does come on somewhat strong (no pun intended), it is generally because he is disgusted with someone's lack of manners. In the scene where Knightley tells Mrs. Weston that he'd like to see Emma "in love and in some doubt of a return -- it would do her some good," I interpreted this as his wanting Emma to feel the effects her actions had had on Robert Martin, and not any reflections of his own feelings, which I don't think he had realized at that point. He simply wants her to become more aware of others. In the ensuing scene, when Isabella and John Knightley are visiting and Emma is holding her namesake, Knightley and Emma share many looks across the room and he tells her he once held her like that, breaking the ice between them. Knightley also shows a lighter side of his personality in playing with his brother's children. I felt this showed their relationship, and how long it had been in being established. Also, when Knightley helps Emma out of her carriage at the ball, they banter together playfully nd their affection is clear. Later at the ball, Emma is dancing with Frank and catches Knightley's eye and gives him a big smile which he doesn't return -- her own quickly dies. At Box Hill, even while he is berating Emma, Knightley reaches in the carriage and arranges her seat. As for Emma and the lack of comedy felt by many, I thought the dream sequences perfectly fit her matchmaking character. Since she was so sure of her skill and delighted in imagining its results, it was not unreasonable to assume she would daydream about her schemes either being very successful or quite the opposite. I really love when she is daydreaming about Knightley's proposal and her acceptance, and she remembers Harriet with a start: "Oh lord, Harriet!" This is perfectly in keeping with Emma's de ree of self-absorption. I particularly liked the scene where she is in the village with Harriet, and Miss Bates calls out the window to let Emma know that Jane Fairfax is there. Emma quietly groans to Harriet, "Oh lord, Miss Bates!" and then when told that Jane will be delighted to see her, says with full smile and clenched teeth, "I doubt it!" However, I felt Emma went out of her way to disagree with the disparaging comments Frank makes about Jane as a cover. She doesn't agree with any of them, and actually tries to stick up for Jane. I felt the proposal scene was much closer to the feeling of the book than previous versions. I love how Emma wants to run away when she sees Knightley coming, but instead turns away only long enough to compose herself and then turns back with a ghastly attempt at a smile. One of my favorite lines has always been, "you have borne it as no other woman in England would have borne it." In Emma2, I was so disappointed in how they changed that line to make it more politically correct. Here it is done as in t e book, and their kiss, even if out of place, at least is more appropriate. When he tells her that he held her in his arms when she was three weeks old, I felt that he was telling her he had loved her all his life in one form or another. I liked her asking, "Do you like me as well as you did then?" Of course he does, but in a totally different way. I'm sorry for such a long post, but I was really enthusiastic upon my second viewing. Anybody else have a change of heart?

Susan -- what a wonderful analysis of your second viewing. I liked it better the second time as well, but I do not believe I could express myself with such clarity. Another scene which shows Knightley's range of emotions is when Mrs Elton is telling him she would have been glad to arrange the party at Donwell for him. His sly smile and side glances at Emma are quite amusing, and Mrs E does not have a clue.

Susan Christie: Wonderful analysis, nicely done indeed! Good to hear from another MS supporter and one far more articulate than myself. I liked JN in Emma2 (especially during the picnic and proposal scenes)but prefer MS. Here's a question to ponder-- what if JN was in Emma3 and MS in Emma2? How would it have changed the overall feel of the movies? Would you still feel the same way about the actors?

] what if JN was in Emma3 and MS in Emma2? How would it have changed the overall feel of the movies? __ Great question!

I think that my dream Emma would be the screenplay from Emma2 with the cast (except Frank, he makes me squinch my nose) from Emma3. i like KB in this better than GP. After just watching 3 again, I prefer (blasphemy, I know) MS to JN as Knightley. Harriet, Miss Bates, Mr. Woodhouse, John Knightley, the Eltons, - really the whole cast. Okay, I admit it, it's just been soo long since I saw 2 that I could just be disappointed with 3's weak points But, as wonderful as JN is, there are a few places where I feel ga-ga about the appearance of 3's MS: the exchange with Mrs. Elton about trusting only MRS. Knightley to arrange things at Donwell, the brown coat/hat look wonderful with those light brown eyes!

#119 I prefer (blasphemy, I know) MS to JN as Knightley. Oh, Cindy, me too! I know there a lot of big JN fans on here, but for some reason, he just leaves me cold. Glad to know I'm not alone. Also, JN and GP were about the same height, and they never seemed "right" to me as a couple. Knightley is referred to several times in the book as being tall, and JN is just not that tall, nor would he appear so even with a shorter actress. Petty, I know, but there it is. I thought Mark Strong and Kate Beckinsale did a very good job, they looked "right" together, and I was also very glad to finally see a dark-haired Emma. Rightly or wrongly, I've always pictured her that way.

Susan, my sister, thank you!!!!!!!

HMM JN in EMMA3, that is a good question. AS you all know, I've converted to Northanism and although I think Davies' sreenplay was inferior to Doug Mcgrath's version(Emma is supposed to be fall down funny at times. I don't think I laughed once.), I'm sure JN would have still entranced and captivated me. For many of us he is Jeremy KNightley. I think JN hit on the key to understanding MR KNightley-his romantic reticence. In the course of the book, he has to come to terms with his changing feelings for Emma with the arrival of Frank Churchill and the threat he presents. Just as Emma has to confront her blidness. This struggle is best exemplified by the dance scene in EMMA2-the whom are you going to with and brother and sister-indeed we are not:The dance is the first time he allows himself to show his true feelings for Emma.Personally, MS threw away this crucial line in the same scene in EMMA3. JN's is the definitive reading, so vulnerable, tentative-as if he were afraid she was going to refuse him. Then, wit a very strong, assertive emphasis on the indeed we are not. As for the proposal scene-the scene in Emma2 was the way I had always imagined it. I hated that there was no mention of the trip to London and the ride through the rain, the torture of seeing Isabella. And of course-the you are now my MR knightley speech. Watching the movie, I felt the same way I had when I read the book. The wonderful awkwardness of the first meeting(Emma is afraid he's going to marry Harriet) and the exultant declarations of love. The staging of the scene was also superior with the "do not speak it" speech, followed by the close-up of Jeremy's longing, suffering face(compare his reaction to MS's-JN really looked like she had given him pain). IN comparison, the proposal scene in EMMA3 seemed too rushed, contrived, even false. As i've said, KB and MS had no chemistry/sparks. Granted JN was blessed with a wonderful, charming script which for me, captured the champagne effervescence of the book. But again, the difference for me betwee JN and MS is not a matter of looks or manners, but the subtle voice inflections, engaging looks, charm, and vulnerability he brought to the Mr KNightley role.

okay, okay, I admit, utterly and completely, that JN and NOT MS had the proper inflection, nay the perfect inflection, combined with the facial expression, on the No, indeed. But I think that may be the only place I can think of where I prefer JN

OH SUSAN-JN and GP had to be one of the most charismatic couples I have seen on the screen in years!!! The pianoforte scene immediately comes to mind-doesn't she play marvelously? The sparks were flying from the moment of Jeremy KNightley's arrival at Hartfield-who cried the most at the wedding? Just as in the book, you knew they were perfectly matched from the start. The fun is how they will find their way to each other. I know everyone thinks I'm gaining up ON MS(believe me I disliked other things-the script-the leaving out of certain beloved scenes-Harriet Smith's treasures), but he never made the leap from indifferent lover to a man who rode all the way from London in the rain to see how his dearest, beloved Emma was bearing the FC news.

The only place-what about his EMMA! You wrote her answer didn't you? Or, Mr Elton may talk sentimentally, but he will talk rationally. Or better yet-Badly Done, Emma. BAdly DOne.(the second rendered in a tortured whisper) JN never ceases to amaze me with his varying, endearing expressions and witty, interpretations of lines. HE makes MS seem all the more one-dimensional and angry.

I like both versions -- by the 7th viewing, Emma2 had grown quite comfortable for me, even the badly cast parts. By the second viewing, Emma3 is making its own warm spot in my heart as well, and is likely to seem better and better with additional replays. Always difficult to imagine a different actor in a movie, especially when (s)he has acted the same role in another version. Casting-wise, I still think MS & KB were best for Mr Knightley & Emma, but a little of the lightness of the McGrath script or some additional scenes or maybe just a slower pace would have been nice. Anyway, as soon as the video comes on the market for Emma2 I shall purchase it so I can split my Emma viewing time. Neither of these versions (nor Emma1 for that matter) is perfect. The novel is the only perfect version of the story, after all! :-)

The one thing we all agree on, however, is that we all love Mr. Knightley, the character -- and in the end, isn't that what's most important?

I don't know about anyone else, but I loved Mr. Knightly more in the Miramax production. ;-)

Oh yes, indeed, if polyandry were allowed I believe I should want to marry Mr Darcy & Mr Knightley both! (But, Pemberley is probably a long distance from Donwell Abbey -- more than 50 miles of a good road I would suppose.)

Once again, I agree with Cassandra. I did like Mark Strong's performance, though I believe his portrayal was too angry and one-dimensional to be perfectly in tune with my impressions of the novel. In any production, Jeremy Northam would have been an asset, as he shows the depth and development of Knightley's character while at the same time providing enough interaction for the development of Emma's (it could be said that Knightley's sole purpose in the book is to wake Emma up, rather than to stand as a haracter in his own right, though I couldn't agree with that). His Knightley has a certain sweetness about him, and a sense of humor, which I think is crucial to understanding how he could, for so long, deal with her iniquities and yet still respect and love her. I've always viewed Mr. Knightley as a complete and magnanimous person - a friend and confidant to the heroine, who has willingly and quietly given her all the moral support she has needed and deserved throughout her life. He is not simply a stern father figure, and he does not allow personal desires to overwhelmingly color his interactions with her. Strong's Knightley doesn't interact with Emma, he reacts to her - bitterly, even selfishly - and then pulls away from her, which makes it difficult for me to understand how they could have ever established amicable, let alone fraternal or romantic, feelings for eachother. Both the love-attraction and parental concern are there in his portrayal, but to backward extremes! Strong's Knightley is intensely and overtly jealous, and his "parental" anger, even, is bitterly infused with sexual tension. Knightley's parental concern should be tender, not spiteful (Strong's read of the line about Emma being in love with some doubt of its return, for example). No tham's Knightley utilizes and entire range of roles/reactions/"tools" in his dealings with Emma - he humors her, he laughs at her, he reprimands her, he encourages her, &c. - but he always stands by her, as a sort of silent, benevolent sentinel (remember how JN watches her reaction sduring the pianoforte scene at the Coles'? And in the book, when Knightley goes to sit with her? What a great guy!). Even his distrust and dislike of Frank is ultimately more out of fear that Emma will be hurt or that her g odness will be altered for the worse, in concordance with the Knightley in the novel, than out of his own jealousy. In short, Mr. Knightley is a giving person, so secure with himself and with the world that he can give of himself and share his resources with others (lending his use of the carriage to the Bateses, dancing with Harriet at the ball and talking with her at the Donwell Strawberry outing, dealing daily with Mr. Woodhouse, &c., &c., &c.) without dumping upon others the inner torment he may be eeling. I, too, prefer the McGrath screenplay, though I did miss the alphabets scene. Add that, and a bit more attention to Frank and Jane, and you have as close to a perfect 2-hr screenplay for Emma as you can get. Having said that, it's also important to note, for Northam's sake, that even without that scene, his Knightley is still sufficiently aware and involved to suspect Frank's motives without appearing jealous and small. What's more, Strong managed to play the scene with nearly enough fire to convince me that his reactions were out of pure spite. Emma2's screenplay catches the lightness of tone without losing too much of the plot...and even with some of the embellishments (as in the proposal scene, which I loved), you have a touching and believeable version of the story. I, too, read the film review in which the reviewer likens the Persuasion adaptation to a shot of brandy, S&S to a glass or red wine, and Emma2 to a glass of champagne, and I agree. Emma has bite, but it should be light, optimistic, and pleasant-tasting at the same time. As far as Gwyneth Paltrow, I didn't know what to expect, so I expected nothing. I was pleasantly surprised. As I stated before, perhaps her portrayal was too syrupy (to quote Mr. Darcy, "she smiles too much."), but even then, her take is not beyond the realm of appropriateness. Her Emma is sweet, impulsive, charming, intelligent, capable, self-assured, and well-meaning, which certainly fits Austen's creation. She is certainly not the definitive Emma, but then again, neither is Beckinsale (too egotisti ally self-absorbed, even bitchy). Given that the book leaves so much to the imagination, I'm tempted to say (like Kathleen) that there will never be a definitive portrayal of any of the characters (except maybe Jeremy's of Knightley).

If I could have only one, I would choose Mr. Knightley. Mr. Darcy was my first literary love, and I will always have a perverse fascination with Frank Churchill, but Mr. Knightley will always be number one with me.

Perhaps our problem is not with MS as an actor, or even what he did with the role, but the direction? Just a thought... One thing that they don't quite say in Emma3 is that it was a big concession for Mr. Knightly to move to hartfield. Emma really does say that she can't marry him because she can't leave her father. In those day, a man NEVER left his home to go to his wifes, at least a man in Mr. Knightly's position. I love the scene when Mr. Knightly says that no one but Mrs. Knightly will beallowed to invite whomever she wishes to Donwell. Mrs. Elton assumes that because she is the recent bride, that everything is done for her. She forgets her real place in the community as the vicar's wife (which in those days was an important role, but not quite on the same level as Mr. K.). I am so glad they made more of the whole Jane Fairfax thing in this one...Emma realizes that she herself really is not as accomplished as she could or should be.

I'm going to throw this in here, since I seem to be spending a lot of time here, anyway. Also, I think somebody before mentioned having trouble with Emma's "we're alone at night" (HOW COULD SHE HAVE POSSIBLY SAID THAT?!?!) as contrasted with not even one little kiss for Darcy/Lizzie before the final scene. Also, I thought I might ought to put it in "Has anyone noticed...", but that seems full of sean Connery pseudo-drool, so I'll go to it at long last: I'm sure this was discussed and put to bed long ago BC, esp. since I'm a relative new-comer, but didn't he lean down and kiss her during their walk? I swear he's doing that right after the "dearest, loveliest Elizabeth", but then the scene just cuts to more of their walking down the lane. I'm left so unfulfilled!!!

I hear you, Lynn...rich and clever she may be, "but she will never submit to anything requiring industry and patience, and a subjection of the fancy to the understanding." I love that line! Yes, Emma certainly does have a long way to go, but I think both recent adaptations showed that. I don't think Mark Strong's PROBLEM (if it really is one) lies in a lack of talent, understanding, or good direction...rather, it lies in a neglectful script! If you go straight by the text, Strong's portrayal wasn' t really "wrong," but it does heavily accent the negativity in Mr. Knightley's character. There are a few friendly moments, and he plays them well, but they are so few and brief you barely notice them! This is because Davies seems to highlight scenes of anger (or scenes which can potential y be played angrily), and then ignores other points of character (including other characters' descriptions of Mr. Knightley's kindness, &c.).

YES! I still think I want the 3 cast in the 2 production

It is almost as if the Emma3 people went to see Emma2 and made a list of all the things that production did, then set out to do the opposite. Blonde Emma/Brunette Emma. Handsome Knightley/Not-so-handsome Knightley. Light and fluffy script/dark and brooding script. No chicken thieves/chicken thieves. Charming Knightley/Angry Knightley.

Tempting generalizations, Ann...

Lynn makes a good point about the importance of the director in influencing the actors' performances. We can't ever know how much of what we're seeing originated with the actors and how much with the director. It was my impression, while watching Emma3, that the direction was poor, but I'm not expert enough in these matters to be able to state that with any confidence. But I was interested to hear that Myretta's actress friend thought the same thing. For what it's worth, I though that JN was the perfect Mr. Knightley (and I'm a non-drooler on the Northam front), but I agree with those who have said that he was too young and too small in relation to GP.

Too young and too small????? Those are pretty shallow objections. NOr, do I agree with them. JN is 35, that's not much of a stretch, especially given the nuance and charm he brought to the Mr KNightley role. As FOR JN And GP, I thought they looked wonderful together-his striking, dark good looks and her Grace Kelly-esque features. Moreover, one of my biggest objections to Emma3(and yes-I'm willing to admit that it wasn't just MS's fault or inabilities. It had a lot to do with Andrew Davies' humourless script) was the way they presented the KNightley/Emma relationship. For most of the movie, he was always angry at her-no burst of true affection or feeling. I like what KAli said-JN was MR Knightley-the complete man: He humors her, argues with her, and above all stands by her!! And I hated KB saying that she had always favoured FC as husband. Overall, I didn't believe KB's-I love you-I think I always have. As I've said, one of things I love most about the book is Emma's road from blindness to realization that she loves Mr KNightley. There are so many subtle hints in the book-I remeber one part when Emma and Harriet are talking and Emma can remember exactly where Mr KNightley was sitting-what he said. Personally, EMMA2, as a result of the screenplay and the actor's performances(I've already said enough of my admiration for JN's subtle voice inf ections and expressions. And as for GP-she wasn't perfeect, but she surprised me too) best captured the spirit of the Emma/Knightley romance. Again, I agree with KAli-For me, JN is the definitive Mr KNightley. NO adaptation of a beloved novel is going to be completely faithful or perfect. Even P&P2-I would have liked to see Lizzy tell Mrs B that she is going to marry Mr Darcy, or ask Mr Darcy when he fell in love with her. As for Emma2-Granted, more Frank and Jane would have been desirable, and the blunder scene. Still, for a two-hour movie, Emma2 came pretty close. I think JN once again deserves praise for conveying so much in terms of his bod language and interpretation of Mcgrath's wiity script. Watch/listen to his reading of the "badly done Emma" and "this is not pleasnt for me, but I must tell you the truths while I can." He's the genuine Mr KNightley: HE's concerned, vulnerable, angered by the treatment of Miss Bates(but more that Emma is under FC's influence) and passionately in love with Emma, fearful that she will be hurt.

Shallow considerations...very true, Cass...yet another instance of alternative realities! I don't mean to degrade anyone's opinions, but the general dislike of Emma2 seems to be of a most curious and invidious nature, and I must comment upon it! Maybe I'm oversensitive, having allowed this to build up for several months now. Maybe I'm magnifying the issue. But for some reason, there is a sizeable group out there which seems unnecessarily harsh on Jeremy's Knightley/Gwyneth Paltrow/Emma2...for whatever reasons: The production is too light. It mangles the plot. It leaves stuff out. The actors are all wrong. More often than not, the considerations expressed are certainly not grounds for resounding negativity regarding the entirety of the production. (Remember, this isn't a five-hour P&P2 clone, and Emma is not the heaviest Austen book known to man.) But even those complaints don't bother me that much. It's the actor-bashing that bugs most! Northam is lucky enough to serve as the focus for most of the complaints about this production. But not one of the detractors has had a thing to say about his actual performance - rather, it's his looks, his age, his height, &c. On Austen-L, one woman even criticized his performance on the basis that he was too much of a "pretty boy." Incidentally, Cass and I, and several others, appreciate the fact that he ISN'T a prettyboy. What's up here? Are we all living of different planets or something? And poor Gwyneth! She's not the definitive Emma, but she's certainly a great one! So what if she's a tall girl? Was Emma specifically a shorty? Too often, it seems that we get carried away with our own images and impressions from the novel, and forget to preface our comments with that fact. Even more importantly, we seem to get caught up in near-irrelevancies and thereby ignore some of the more positive and redeeming qualities of the actors/performances/scripts/entire productions. Again, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, and I understand why some people might not be perfectly satisfied with Emma2 or its actors...but for Pete's sake, can we refrain from getting carried away with certain inadequacies which aren't blatant sacrelidge?

Let me be the first to say that I thoroughly enjoyed all the Emma adaptations, E2 included. I intend to watch it again when the video is available and maybe my opinions will change somewhat, just as they did with a second viewing of E3. People's tastes being so different, I think it is miraculous that we all totally agree CF is the definitive Darcy. It could be that there will never be a consensus on the definitive Knightley (makes me love him all the more that he's indefinable!), but it doesn't mar my njoyment of any Emma adaptation. I've also enjoyed the discussions here about why people like one adaptation better than another. It's just fun to be discussing it, period -- there's only one person in my 'real life' who even knows or cares what I'm talking about!

Only seeing Emma2 once, I can see the difference in the script and directing. It is lighter and much more romantic. The comedy was between the people Emma and Herriot, Emma and her father, Emma and Mr. Knightly ect. Which overall makes for a much better movie. In Emma 3 the comedy was Emma's daydreaming scenes which were funny, but not enough to be called a comedy. While watching the proposal scene(Emma3)I found myself losing interest. JN is not a "pretty boy" ,but a very good (handsome) actor and is a very effective kisser. I did read somewhere that GP said he was a very nice "man". I have watched the trailer (and the kiss and archery scene are on the trailer) I download from the Miramax site and it brings out many happy feelings which are better then anger.It is definitely what he does with facial expressions and his voice. GP and JN version will have a wider appeal for all age groups. I can't wait for the video.

Linda....My own sister may have lead me astray in believing Jane in Emma3 was in Anne of Green Gables. She said that Jane was the shop clerk character (of whom I have no memory). I fixed in my mind a character that I now have found out to be in Road to Avonlea named Olivia! When it is a more reasonable hour, I will check with my sister to find out who she thought Jane was in Anne of Green Gables/Road to Avonlea. As to the JN/MS debate, I have to agree with those that feel that JN was much more enjoyable to watch. As others have noted, MS's lesser performance is due in part to the way Birtwistle and Davies decided to film Emma3. It may have been more faithful to the novel that Knightly was not especially tender, but it does not make for very good romance, much less comedy, for Knightly to be so rigid and angry all the time. Yet, all in all, JN did a better acting job and it does not hurt that he's quite the han some, young man. I found that the memory of JN (and to a lesser degree, GP) really distracted me and kept me from enjoying Emma3 as much as I would otherwise have done.

In the book, it is written that Mr. Knightley "had a cheerful manner, which always did him good." And at the ball, Emma notes how handsome and youthful he looks...and how Frank is the only man in Highbury who rivals him. So there we have it. He's not crotchety, nor is he old. He's also a friendly, giving guy - which is backed by numerous little details about his kindness and attention to the feelings of others.

I want to voice my praise for our new Harriet! She did so well with her expressions, esp. in the scenes when she's trying to make up her mind: "I'm now quite determined, yes, I'm sure" to refuse Robert Martin, the "yes, ...yes" to compose herself when calling on the Martins, eeven her delivery of the explanation (to Emma) of her engagement "Mr. Knightley encouraged him, he is so good". I don't recall the 2 Harriet being quite so endearing. One other place I really do chuckle is at Mrs. Elton's face after Knightley refuses her help as Lady Patroness. It's classic

The new Harriet was so convincing as a vapid thing that I wonder how she will play Jane Eyre. Or am I mistaken or did I dream somebody said she would play Jane in the new CH JE?

No dream. I am quite sure she was Jane in the promos shown during Emma.

I cast my vote for JN in the JN vs. MS debate. I thought he encapsulated the image of "a true gentleman" more. It's funny, I didn't like Emma 2 that much when I first saw it, but Emma 3 is making me look on it more favorably. The lightness of tone might have gotten silly at times, but at least there was the effort to preserve some of Austen's comedy. And I too thought that Gwyneth did great, considering that she's not English & this was her first "classical" film role, as far as I know.

reg. #145: Again, I agree, Kali. I have never understood this perception of Mr Knightley as less dashing than Mr Darcy: this perpetual elder(much emphais on elder) brother figure. It's clearly stated in the book that there are not one and a hundred men with gentlemen plainly written across them. And I love the dance scene. Emma is most disturbed by the fact that he is not dancing "so young as he looked". "He moved a few steps nearer....proved how gentlemenlike a manner, with what natural grace, he must ha e danced, would he take the trouble." This description certainly fits JN. I agree one of the biggest weaknesses with the DAvies' script is that for most of the film, we never see Mr KNightely doing anything, except blankly staring,(maybe Davies has become condescending with success-throw in a DArcy-like stare for the masses. I wonder if he's even read the book) or shrieking. Mr Knightley is above-all a gentlemen who thinks surprises never enhance enjoyment but considerably increase inconvenience;he lends his carriage to the Bates, gives them his store-apples, and rescues HArrie at the ball. I thought it was a brilliant touch on Mcgrath's part that it is Mr KNightley who is the first to speak after Miss BAtes' humiliation, asking her to take a turn with him. As for the supposed lightness of Emma2, Emma is not Tolstoy. It's the story of a girl who has rather too much her own way and thinks a little too well of herself. NOr, do I understand the view that they somehow perverted the plot.With the exception of the blunder scene and the Donwell strawberry party, most of the major scenes/dialogue are intact. Personally, they did a much better job with Emma's matchmaking-especially the inclusion of the scene in Emma2 when she bends to fix her shoe, thus leaving Harri t and Mr E alone. As for GP, the more I saw KB, the more impressed I became with her performance. She was charming, intelligent, even touching(especially the No one must marry Mr KNightley but me scene), perfectly capturing the faultless in spite of her faults theme. And I am going to go against the opinion here and argue that I preferred Toni Collette's Harriet. She's a brilliant actress/comedian who fit description of a girl who fell in love with three men in one year. In particular, I thought she was wonderful/hysterica when she runs into Mr MArtin and sister at the store.

See, Amy2? We never really were in disagreement...;)

Cindy (#146): I want to voice my praise for our new Harriet! According to The Making of Emma book, Samantha Morton (Harriet) was only 18 when they filmed Emma. Very talented, indeed, as well as looking the part. As for Mr Strong's portrayal of Mr Knightley, the actor himself says, "At this point I worried that, because I was always having a go at Emma, the audience might not see the love behind it. . . . Jimmy Hazeldine [Mr Weston] said . . . said not to worry, . . . that people don't take that kind of interest in somebody unless they have very strong feelings for them."

Sounds from resp 152, that Mark Strong was aware the script made Knightley appear too harsh on Emma. Before my 2nd viewing of Emma3, I watched Emma1. This I felt would help me get over the fact that Emma3 was hugely less light-hearted than Emma2 and to some extent, that JN or should I say, Jeremy knightley was not playing 'himself' But this was to no avail!! On my umpteen time reading the book, I feel that it was intended to be somewhat more lighthearted than that put across in Emma3. Though Emma2 may ave commercialised it a little to suit a wider audience. Hollywood style comes to mind. But here's how I fare the various adaptations : Emma1 - No chemistry came across between hero and heroine. Way too clinical. Though the minor casting were mostly spot-on. Emma2 - (Watched 3 times) Personally, had me and all my friends and other cinema patrons overwhelmed with the pair from the all the 'hmms' that were expressed. Jeremy just seemed to capture the Jane Austen's cheerful Knightley and from his body language, and always standing visibly in the background, was able to capture his unselfish care for Emma - "whatever the event of this hour's conversation" - regardless of whether she rejected his proposal or accepted, she would be loveliess,dearest Emma. Emma3 - Again, I felt there was no attraction between the two. KB came across a little bitchy and too condesending even towards Mr Woodhouse. Mark Strong's protrayal has already been critised and talked to death. Might watch Emma3 once more to be absolutely sure.

You've all mention so many good points I will simply add. I liked this adaptation but thought the characters & story line were under developed. I was hoping for more of the underlying passion and character depth I appreciated so much in P&P2. It's to bad since this team had the ability to so much with Austen's work. I agree with those of you who liked Mark Strong in the adaptation. I thought had he been able to really to grow the character he would have given Firth & JN a run for their money. I can hardly believe I said that... Will I be forever banished from the drool conference?

"Upset that Jeremy Knightley was not playing himself...he was able to capture his unselfish care for Emma, regardless of whether she rejected his proposal or not..." YES!YES! SERENA! Such is Jeremy's talent and presence that even in those background shots, one cannot keep one's eyes off him. Even without the "blunder puzzle scene", you still sense Mr KNightley's keen powers of insight and observation. Personally, it's his eyes-so eloquent and expressive; you always feel he's actively observing/protecting Emma. I love the bemused, knowing grin on JN's face when Elton sits between them at the Christmas party. This is why I can't fully accept the argument that MS would have been just as effective/charming/warm with the benefit of a lighter/wittier McGrath screeenplay.There's the Darcy factor and then, there's the "JN factor". I'm particularly struck by the Badly Done, Emma scene. MS played it much too venomously for me. Compare it to Jeremy's subtle(again the body language, the eyes and the VOICE-that most eloquent and intimate of human instruments) and multilayered version. I've said a million times how much I admired his secondYou "Badly Done"-so tortured, so concerned. I always felt that Mr KNightley was more pained by this scene than even Emma. You really feel the complete range of emotions. I particularly loved the way he stood back and gently said "this is not pleasant fot me. BUt, I must tell you the truths while I can." Yes, he's angry, but more fearful that his dearest Emma, the sweetest of creatures, will be hurt.

I just ran across this again (I had read it before I saw Emma and forgotten about it) and couldn't resist posting it. It's from a comparison by Bernie of the Darcy factors of Mark Strong in Emma and Rupert Graves in Tenant of Wildfell Hall. Even I, a Mark Strong supporter, wouldn't have said this (other than the perfectly convincing part): Mark Strong is a perfectly convincing Mr. Knightley but he is probably too sweet for viewers who prefer their heroes to indulge in occasional outbreaks of nostril�flaring and boot�thwacking. I guess everyone looks at things differently!

Sorry, I was misleading in the above. Bernie didn't say that; the article she was reading said it.

What about Gwyneth paltrow's reaction during the "badly done" scene? The tortured expression on her face...almost to the point of explosive, dry sobs. Gwyneth's Emma feels from her gut...quite literally, especially in the scene where Harriet admits to Emma her belief that Mr. Knightley is in love with her...GP turns away from her, grasping her stomach, fighting back the tears, and gasps, " Mr. Knightley is the last man in the world who would intentionally give any woman the idea of his feeling more for er than he really does." THAT is the reaction of a girl who has suddenly realized, with the speed of an arrow, that a certain man must marry no one but herself! We need to feel, hot, wrenching thrills in the pits of our stomachs! Kate Beckinsale's reactions are unmemorable...she kind of glares spitefully at Mr. Knightley from the carriage after her scolding at Box Hill, and after listening to Harriet's pipedream, she merely looks surprised and disbelieving (I am, howver, with the waterworks she produce a bit later on...crying on the spot is tough!).

I am casting my vote on the side of Emma3. I thought the casting was right on and appreciated the more subtle portrayal by the actors. I will agree that the romantic treatment of the story in Emma2 makes it very appealing, but it wasn't until I watched Emma3 that the mis-match of actors to their roles was made apparent to me. Just as in P&P2, the actors compliment both their roles and each other. I will not enjoy Emma2 less when I see it again, it has some wonderful scenes. I can't agree that Mark Str ng was a harsh, uncaring Knightley; far from it. Even in the earliest of his scenes, his looks and expression betray his feelings despite what he is saying to Emma. For it is how it says it that gives him away (to me). Like Darcy, he is his own man, responsible for a hugh estate and all that live on it. A man like that has little patience for silliness and the irresponsible. I find I cannot watch my tape enough!

I can't agree that Mark Strong was a harsh, uncaring Knightley; far from it. Even in the earliest of his scenes, his looks and expression betray his feelings despite what he is saying to Emma. For it is how it says it that gives him away (to me). Like Darcy, he is his own man, responsible for a hugh estate and all that live on it. A man like that has little patience for silliness and the irresponsible. I find I cannot watch my tape enough! Thanks for your comments, Mary -- ITA, but we are in the minority, I warn you!

reg. #158: I agree. Gwyneth was just as heartbreaking in the badly done scene and the subsequent scene with Harriet. KB's reaction and subsequent waterworks seem all the more cold and artifical(perhaps the result of glycerine). You really feel her sincere remorse and despair;how "totally ignorant of her own heart" she had been." And the torture that she might lose him. Her acting style was well-suited to Jeremy's. I remember reading that for JN, one of the biggest pleasures in making Emma2 were the spontaneous reac ions/looks they generated, notably in the pianoforte scene. Both JN and GP can convey more emotion/depth than most actors can with pages of dialoque. I really loved the way GP's eyes shone with tears and silent admiration at Mr Jeremy Knightley when he rescued Harriet at the ball. Here really is a girl who is on the verge of discovering who is most dear. Overall, GP's portrayal was much more in keeping with my impression of Emma. I never saw her as "silly or even irresponsible" or cold and unfeeling, like KB. Like Mrs Weston, I see Emma, even with her faults, as an excellent creature-also well-meaning:a good daughter, kind sister.. Her biggest fault-she seems forever doomed to blindness.

Indeed - faultless in spite of her faults, and right 100 times for every wrong!

The phrase "agree to disagree" comes frequently to mind when reading this thread. Did I miss it, or is there indeed not a thread for Emma2? Would it help if we had one?

I'll make one, Susan...we're up for one anyway, when we VirtView it in April...

So, now that there's an Emma2 thread, does that mean we MSers have this bed all to ourselves? (it's a joke, get off my back)

A comment from "The Making of Emma" book (in the screenplay) confirms that Mrs Elton's accent is supposed to have "strong traces of a Bristol accent." From what people in the know around here have said, however, it appears that the actress did not succeed. I thought she did a fine job, otherwise, however.

Looking some more at the screenplay (getting ready for another viewing!), I realize how much I like the scene where Mr Knightley dances w/ Harriet. Emma3 shows him reacting to Mr Elton's rudeness, and it also shows how grateful Harriet is. A very touching scene.

I'm not so sure, Kathleen, that Mrs. Elton didn't succeed! The Bristol accent may be slightly different - to me she sounded slightly west country and lower class, which is what she was supposed to be and sound like. BTW - where did you get your "Making of Emma" book? Did you get it from JA books in Chicago?? I want to get one.

In Behind the Scenes of Emma on A&E online, Mark Strong says: Darcy and Knightley have a similarity in the sense that they're both very brusque. Darcy is proud, where I think Knightley is honest. Strong sees Knightley as "an older brother figure" to Emma and says the character is "responsible for educating Emma. He wants her to be the best person she can be." This is how I've always felt about this story, and this is what I thought he conveyed. The more I watch this version, the more I enjoy it. There were a lot of scenes left out, but not the ones that concerned Emma and Knightley, which of course interest me the most. I think his portrayal and this version overall are very close to the intent of the book and of the period in which it was written as far as how people would really behave. I didn't care for Mrs. Elton the first time through, but appreciated er a great deal more on a second watching. All in all, I'm very pleased.

maybe because of his seriousness as portrayed, I get a very strong(ha) appreciation for his tenderness in the proposal, as his dreams are dashed and then so soon fulfilled Also, the strawberry party in the brown coat and hat (tho' not a big liability, hiding the receding) and those beautiful brown eyes "Perhaps not"

Susan, I believe we're preaching to the choir Okay, finding a use for the chicken theives - provided a quick and easy argument for Emma to use on her dad (we know it took a bit longer than this). Also, it ties the package neatly. I remember an old movie my mom and I used to watch (my dateless Sat. nights). I think it was Anthony Hopkins(or not) playing a younger man having a fling with a married, neglected lady(why do I want to say Ingrid Bergman?). Things move along, the man finds out (or gets suspicious or warned or...), resolves to mend his wa s, Mrs. breaks it off with the young guy (this is where the crying comes in - so verry hard to break off this wonderful, loving relationship), things get much better for Mr. and Mrs., then ends when hubby sinks back into old ways. So beautiful in its symmetry. Chicken theives at beginning, things happen, chicken theives at the end. Okay, granted, it's not the same at all. something, tho'

A few more things, then I promise to shut up at least until I watch it again. First, I don't understand what is lacking in MS's manner when he says "Brother and Sister? Indeed not!" And just before that, when he says "Will you?" when Emma says she'll dance with him if he'll ask her. I thought he seemed very vulnerable on the latter and indignant on the former, just as he should. Also, at Box Hill, I hear his voice nearly break with emotion on the word "indeed" when he says "Badly done, indeed." And ast, when Emma says, "Then don't speak it!", he looks pretty devastated. And yes, Cindy, he looks pretty darn cute in his brown hat and coat. I really like this guy!

I too like this version of Emma and Mark Strong's performance. To give some background on his hair - I read in an English newspaper last summer that he started losing his hair very early, before he was 30 or so, and as a result decided to shave his head a la Yul Brynner. Not sure whether he's still got it that way, but that definitely was a wig - he doesn't have nearly that amount of hair to grow.

Yes, Inko, a friend has seen him in a lot of BBC stuff and says he's real bald. And he does look a little like Andy Garcia as someone mentioned earlier.

Resp. 169 - "There were a lot of scenes left out..his portrayal and this version overall are very close to the intent of the book and of the period in which it was written as far as how people would really behave..." Susan, I agree here, but perhaps if Emma3 had included scenes where only Emma and Knightley were seen together discussing, bantering..afterall he was a frequent visitor at Hartfield, and their characters were allowed to grow, I'm sure Mark Strong's Knightley would have come across, even though he is not Jeremy. But I don't think I can say the same for KB's performance.

BTW - where did you get your "Making of Emma" book? Did you get it from JA books in Chicago?? I want to get one. I got my copy of "The Making of Jane Austen's Emma" through a local bookstore. They have a student helper who has a friend who works in a bookstore in Dublin, Ireland (I believe) -- that's how I got my copy of The Making of P&P, BTW. The ISBN number is 0-14-026141-9. The cast pictures show a very short haircut for Mark Strong, and a heavily receded hairline. But I agree that his eyes are marvelous -- so large and dark and deep. I have grown to like his performance more and more. I also liked the way this adaptation presented Mr Elton -- less henpecked by his wife, and more complicit in the couple's ill bred behavior. They were both jerks, and that showed in this version. Emma's rejection of his proposal was funny, too, as she seemed to shooing off a pesky insect (come to think of it, she was!).

Ladies (and Gentlemen), we have our own Emma3 thread now, and no one's posting to it! Where are all my fellow supporters? I'll start by responding to Kathleen's message above. I do love MS's eyes -- they are gorgeous and luminous; very expressive. And I grow more and more enchanted with his performance, as you do. I reread parts of the book over the last few days and I must say his portrayal was really close to "my" Mr. Knightley. A lot of the dialogue in this production was also verbatim from the book. I, too, really enjoyed Mr. Elton in this production, although I cannot say I saw the resemblance between him and CF that others did. He did seem to be more a part of Mrs. Elton's illbred behavior in this version; the others seem to cast him more as condoning, not abetting, her behavior. Last, this is not an attack on Emma2, so please don't anyone take it that way, but I look on it as more of a "Hollywood," Americanized production of a British novel. It was not a "bad" adaptation -- it had lots of good points and I will watch it again with pleasure, but I think the British productions are better able to create the feel of the books, as Emma3 did. Now -- that should be enough fodder for all sorts of comments, both pro and con!

Susan, I'm so glad you posted that. I agree with you. I just got a copy of Emma 3 (new, on sale at Border's)and am looking forward to watching a "clean" version of it. I also thought it stayed truer to the book, but, on the other hand, I've only seen Emma2 once in the theatre, so all real comparisons will have to wait till the video of Emma2 is available. But when I saw it my reaction, on coming out of the theatre, was that it was a very pretty lot of vignettes without too much cohesion to them. I missed having nearly nothing of Mr. Woodhouse; certainly they omitted his funny and annoying talk of food that's good for you and draughts, and general illnesses, etc. I also didn't see the similarity between Mr. Elton and CF. Emma3's Mr. Elton wasn't as slimy as Emma2's, but equally obnoxious if not more so. More to come when I can watch one tape right after the other! (Between watching P&P over and over, that is!)

Susan -- thank you for restarting us. After rewatching a few more times, I have found even more things that I like! I think you may have verbalized the different reactions I was having to Emma3 vs Emma2 (I tried to explain myself to an English professor, and I could not -- he has not yet watched Emma3, but loved Emma2). In any adaptation, the scriptwriter adds/deletes. The Emma3 lines about "But we are alone at night" would of course not have been part of JA's novel. But I love the look Emma & Knightley give each other right after she says this to her father. Another scene that was spot on in agreement with the novel was when Mr Knightley takes leave before going to London. He finds out that Emma has been to visit Miss Bates, and Emma's expression makes it clear that it's because of his opinion. He takes her hand and almost starts to raise it to his lips. This has always been a powerful scene in the book for me, and I think they did it just right. The actors' expressions are wonderful. [Susan, if necessary, we can carry on a small fan club discussion by ourselves!]

Since you invited opposing arguments....... Overall, I really respect and enjoy the differing views presented here. I love to debate. However, I hate how much of the criticism directed at Emma2 tends to be of a largely superficial nature-"the Hollywood-Americanized" argument. Or as KAli pointed out, a lot of the criticism is vented at the actors-GP being an American actress and JN is often criticized largely because of his youth and good looks. Since we have already exhausted much of the JN/MS debate, I'll just focus for a moment on GP. Firstly, ev n the Brits admitted that her accent was good, almost flawless in fact. Julia Roberts-GP is not. More importantly, she gave a wonderful, charming, touching performance. As I've said, her Emma was much more in keeping with my overall impressions and "the faultless in spite of her faults" theme. As for EMMA2, itself: Yes-It was directed and the written by an American, Doug McGrath. And personally, he did a helluva job, capturing(IMO) the spirit of the book. He is a brilliant, witty screen-writer. Bullets over Broadway immediately comes to mind-"don't speak!". My point, then, is that he should be judged on the basis of his work, not because he's an American. Overall, I think it's a gross generalization to say that the Brits are better able to capture the feel/look of these novels. After all, it was a British actress who won the most coveted role in Hollywood, making the most convincing of southern belles.

Kathleen, Susan, please don't leave me out of your little (the emphasis seems to be on little) fan club. I still consider myself to be a staunch Emma3er. I won't be getting my video for another couple of weeks, based on the schedule when ordered. Gosh, it'll be nice not to have to ff through all those commercials! It will be nice to do a truly direct comparison once 2 is released, but I don't anticipate a huge change of opinion.

Cassandra -- I am sorry you took Susan and my comments as criticisms of Emma2. I certainly did not mean it in any negative way. I was trying to verbalize my reactions to the two adaptations. I very much liked both of them -- I saw Emma2 seven times in three weeks. Your opinion is that Emma2 better captured the spirit of the book, and my opinion is that Emma3 did. They neither of them presented the whole story, of course, and I simply reread the novel for that. Anyway, I hope that we can discuss Emma3 without getting into a debate about which is the better adaptation -- I for one cannot say which is better, only what I prefer about each. (The only JA adaptation which I cannot bring myself to rewatch is the Olivier/Garson P&P.) Friends? :-)