What about train spotting? That too?

James, I assume you're in Austin? Had a group of friends in Austin that spent a summer hopping, but I think they've pretty much dispersed... or gotten legs shorn off by fast moving rail cars!

I wonder if we could quietly contact them as anonymous sources for his article, I have one friend I'm trying to track down about this.

Hmm.. I'll see if I can figure out where they're living now.

Great, I've got an email in to my other source.

Has anyone found somebody? Thanks

not yet.

working on it still. Have you heard from Mickey?

Greetings. I'm fairly familiar with trains and train watching. I've watched trains, listened to them on the radio, been to railfan conventions, and all that stuff. Unfortunately, about the only good thing about train hopping is that it's a good way to get killed or crippled. I don't want to come off as a stick in the mud, but it's really an awful idea. We probably have 3 or 4 unfortunate train hoppers a year killed or maimed each year in the Central Texas area. (and that's just the ones I hear about.) There are probably more minor injuries and major ones I haven't heard about. I even hear about the professional train crews getting hurt getting on or off the train occasionally. There's really no safe way to ride a train except in the engine. Even the caboose is not really very safe. That's part of the reason why you don't see cabooses much anymore. (I don't know how long these things should be, so I'll include more in a later message.)

It was never very safe to hop trains, but it's got much worse now for several reasons. Train crewmembers very rarely ride rail cars when moving any more. Even then, they usually just hang on to the rear car when the train moves very slowly when switching. The "safety appliances" such as handrails walkways, etc have been reduced, removed or allowed to rust away. Old railcars were designed to be "safely" occupied by the train crew while in motion. Modern cars aren't. Modern cars often lack anywhere safe to sit or stand, and may even have holes in them where you can fall through down to the rails. Look at some of the "stacked container" type cars. There's no floor to them. If you look in where the container sits, you see the rails. Modern trains run faster than old trains and may make infrequent stops. You may find yourself unable to get off for many more miles than you wanted to. You can even die from hypothermia if it gets cold and/or wet. Modern trains are longer than older ones. There is a phenomenon called "slack action" that causes jerking motions as long trains start and stop. Many a crew member has been thrown from one side of a caboose to another by slack action when the train starts or stops or even encounters the top or bottom of a hill. We've had a lot of people lately killed by being sealed into boxcars. They can die from heat, lack of oxygen or even from chemical fumes. Sometimes rail cars have fumigating agents added to kill rats and mice in cars carrying grain. You also never know when some chemical carried previously in the car might cause fumes or oxygen deprivation in a closed car. You never know when an open boxcar may get sealed by a train crew or train motion. You should watch some trains in motion sometimes. The rocking motion of cars can be rather violent at times. A perfectly good looking car may start to rock violently at speed. You may be banged around for a very long time before the train stops or slows down enough to get off. You may also run into problems with the human element. Other trainhoppers, or even denizens of the seedy areas that the trains tend to run through may harm you. The railroad police or other police may arrest you (if you're lucky.) You can also find yourself stopped for a long time in the middle of nowhere. Sometimes a low-priority train might be stopped on a siding for days if times get crazy. (It's been crazy in the local area lately.)

In cas you haven't guessed it yet, I'm opposed to any discussion of the joys or techniques of train hopping. I'm really afraid that any such discussions would encourage kids or even stupid adults into doing it. There are some newsgroups you might check out. There is alt.railroad, misc.transportation.rail.* and probably a few others. You'll probably get a lot of rude responses there if you ask about train hopping, but you'll definitely get more reasons not to do it. I really hope you decide not to do any train hopping. I REALLY hope you don't do anything that could encourage someone else to do it. If you do decide to do it, realize it's really dangerous, much more dangerous than most other "adventurous" things you might do. I hope you don't write any favorable articles. I think it's close to writing an article about the fun a teenager has running away from home and hitchiking across the country or using drugs. I get the impression you're involved in the newspaper area. I can probably find you a contact with a local railroad. I can pobably promise you they'll be extremely opposed to the idea, but they may have some information for you.

By the way, I'll be glad to discuss trains in general and train watching in particular. There are some local train nuts, museums, and historical societies. (actually, just try to shut me up once you get me started....)

Where do you find these train museums?

To Mickey: Yes I'm writing a story about trainhopping. And yes, the piece will talk about the romantic/adventure aspects, as people who have train hopped have very positive opinions about their experience. However, most of the story is devoted to the dangers of trainhopping, and why no one should do it in this day and age. I already know and have included most of the warnings in your posts although some bits (like that longer modern trains mean more slack action) I didn't know, so thanks. I share your concern for no wanting to influence those who are impressionable, but I also cannot honestly portray sport trainhoppers as nothing more than crazy kids.

Re: Train Museums. I might have some minor details wrong, but.... There's a "Pioneer and Railroad" museum in Temple Near Avenue H and 31st street. It's near the railroad track in the old Santa Fe station. They have a steam engine on display. There is talk of putting a museum in the old Katy station just east of downtown, but I don't think anything has happened yet. There's a small "museum" and train layout in downtown New Braunfels in the old railroad station at San Antonio Street downtown at the railroad track just South of the town square. It's very small, but has some interesting stuff and a nice layout and a few cars and (I think) a small steam engine. In Smithville, there's a park with a small but very nice museum in the old station house along the railroad tracks downtown. There are a few cars and a caboose on display. In San Antonio, there is a Museum I haven't been into on Wetmore Road north of the airport. It has some cars, engines, etc. and I think it may have an actual working engine of some sort with a very short ride, but I'm not sure of the details. There's a Museum in Houston with a fairly large number of rail cars with railroad items in them. I forget the location, but I think it's East or Northeast. There's talk of moving it downtown. The Texas State Railroad runs from Palestine to Rusk. It has a running Steam engine ride. I think they have some sort of museum. I've seen the train, but not the park area. Of course, Austin has the hill country flier steam train running in various areas from Austin to Burnet. No museum, though. In Dennison, there is the Red River Railroad Museum just east of downtown on main street. (?) This is a nice, but fairly small museum. I think there are some train attractions in DFW, including the Tarantula railroad that does some sort of rides. There is some sort of train thing in Jefferson, TX, including (I think) steam train rides. A fair number of other towns have small museums or displays in old train stations. The San Antonio and Houston dinner trains are no more. There are a lot of interesting old stations in various states of restoration or decay in many cities around Texas. The I&GN station in San Antonio has been beautifully restored. The SP station in SA is nice, too. The Santa Fe station in Temple is nice and still used by amtrack.

If you were in his shoes, Mick, where would you go to find the "other side" of this issue? Any ideas. Great stuff on museums. Do you know of train resources on the web?

I see the Trainhopping article made it into print, even into the Austin360 website: He details the pro and con trainhopping pages on the web. One quote from a local trainhopper: "I love freight riding so much and I love the culture so much and I have awe and respect for its history," said Bill Daniel (rail name: Bad Mouth), a 38-year-old trainhopper who hosted Funhouse Cinema at the Ritz Lounge. "The fact that it's on the Internet and the fact that it's getting totally popular as the yuppie-bungee-jumping-sport breaks my heart." http://www.austin360.com/features/train/trainhop.htm

Does this still post

Looks like! Are you a train hopper?

Mickey McInnis suggested this topic, we're moving his site, http://www.tcares.org to the new server location.

It has been brought to my attention that there is renewed interest in train hopping and disappointmemt that no one has been posting. I will do anything requested of me to aid in the perpetuation of this topic and the memories it evokes. However, never having hopped a train myself, I need your help. If you lurk and never log in, I will never know who you are. My email works and I answer any I get. If you wish to remain anonymous and not login, I can post your comments second hand, as it were. But, you may login however you like and put "none" for email if you truly wish to remain anonymous.Other suggestions are most welcome. Please post something if you are interested. If 20 people who really want to see something here just lurk, then we shall all be the poorer for it. Gentlemen?!

Really, jump on!

Since no one else is posting here, and in the interest of stimulating conversation and musing on the art of train hopping, I will post "stuff" until someone who has actually done it posts. Train Hoppers Dictionary Bull Railroad security persons, usually driving white American trucks around the yard. Catch Out To hop or jump on a freight train. COFC/TOFC Container On Flat Car / Trailer On Flat Car. Consist What a train is made up of. Drag/Turn/Work Train A train doing local delivery and pickups. FRED/EOT Fucking Rear End Device / End Of Train device. A small blinking red light on the back of the last car of a train. Hotshot A train with high priority over other traffic. Piggyback A flat train car that holds trucks or containers. Power The engines powering the train. Reefer A refrigerated box car. Stack Train A train made up of mostly flat cars or well cars, loaded with standardardized shipping containers, sometimes "double stacked". Also known as intermodal freight. Unit A engine or locomotive. http://www.catalog.com/hop/misc/dict.html

National Hobo Association home page = http://www.hobo.org/ "Our forebears were those unique Knights of the Open Road, the American Hoboes. From the Civil War right on up to today, these adventurous souls have been part of our national heritage. And here in the modern day, we still honor their same traditions. Many of us were hoboes in our past, some of us still are. Even more of us never rode a freight train at all but that�s o.k.! Hoboing is a state of mind not a set behavior. "

http://www.hobo.org/whistles.html Interesting tales here of experienced on the rails. Until someone live posts, I'll have to be content with these. My favorite Train museum is the one in Sacramento, California. It is an interesting experience to walk under a huge locomotive. The experience is accompanied by a disquieting feeling of run-or-be-crushed... All of the people who staff the area are retired trainmen who tell wonderful stories and swap tales with those interested. I had to be hauled away by my son so we could make a dinner appointment.

Spent an overnight at a local motel in Elko a few years ago travelling between Sacramento and Denver. Interesting town wiht fascinating geology all around it. NHA Chooses Elko, Nevada for Year 2000 Hobo Music & Poetry Festival July 28, 29 & 30 The National Hobo Association has selected the Fairgrounds at Elko, Nevada for the location of its Millennium Hobo Music and Poetry Festival. Dates for the Festival are July 28, 29 and 30, 2000! (It seems odd to type 2000 without a comma!) Elko is fast becoming a popular convention spot in the west with several hotels of all economic levels along with lots of shopping and RV facilities. Even a few nice Casinos. Elko is the home of the Annual Cowboy Poetry Festival that last year hosted some 20,000 visitors. It also a crew change point on the Union Pacific; Milepost 557. This year's NHA Festival should be biggest ever. We'll be promoting the event for the next nine months in all media and the Elko Chamber of Commerce will include the event in it's literature as well. The Festival will also include sponsorship and exhibits by the Northeast Nevada Railway Historical Society. An all star slate of folk/hobo musicians is planned and we intend to have twenty or so major performers along with open microphone time for all "walk ins". Look for some of America's real "greats" in the hobo music field at this year's event; Utah Phillips, Larry Penn, Smokestack Ross, Banjo Fred, Rick Palieri, Spider John Koerner, The Doll Ranchers, Haywire Brack, Luther the Jet, Jay Mazzarella, Liberty Justice, Luckenbach Al Grierson, Kuddie the Feather River Kid, Ron Miles, Buzz Potter, Pop Wagner, Bodie Wagner and Danville Dan. The fairgrounds will offer seating for 4,000 in the grandstand alone with unlimited open grassy areas available for camping. The various concession stands will offer food, cold drinks (beer, Night Train and pop). Latrines and dumpsters will be available. The dumpsters will not be used as restaurants. the entire Fairgrounds is well fenced with a secure entrance gate. The infield area where camping is available has electric power, showers and change rooms, and night lighting. There will be no curfews. The NHA will be in sole control of the Festival including security. Order Advance Tickets On-Line http://hobo.org/shop.cfm?GroupID=Events

Even more amazing and not just a bit of a come-on for the curious: http://www.amplifiedintelligence.com/TrainHoppingWatch.html Train Hopping Watch The purpose of this page is to provide resources for law enforcement, railroad police, and concerned citizens to enable them to better monitor internet coverage of this dangerous and illegal activity. Unauthorized use of this site by train hoppers looking for information is strictly forbidden! Unfortunately when you put information on the internet everyone can access it. Recent traffic on freight train hopper mailing lists indicates that freight train hoppers are making unauthorized use of this page, so this page has been given an additional mission. Now in addition to its main purpose it is also designed to lure unsuspecting freight train hopping thrill seekers to a location where they can hopefully learn a little about freight train hopping safety. I apologize to the concerned citizens who this material offend.

A little querying inhouse has produced the fact that the resident male hopped trains in California in the late 1940's. I am trying to get stories out of him, but so far all I can gather is that he and his friends were loners who did not hang around other hobos because they were none (that they saw). I asked him what he ate and he said cheese and crackers. Does not sound like much of a diet for "a couple of weeks" worth of meals. They went from near Los Angeles to San Francisco via several trains and always in open boxcars (it was warm weather.) More as I probe his memory for details.

In memory of his days riding the rails, and possibly because of them, herein, courtesy:http://www.deadtrainbums.com/Busted/Law.html California Law on Train Hopping This page contains links to california anti freight train hopping laws Union Pacific has a Zero tolerance policy towards FreightHopping so don't get caught or or you might get 30 days in the county jail. You can check out the California Laws for yourself click here to go to the top of the states pages or follow the links below to what I think are some of the more important ones California Penal Code 587 b 587b. Every person, who shall, without being thereunto authorized by the owner, lessee, person or corporation operating any railroad, enter into, climb upon, hold to, or in any manner attach himself to any locomotive, locomotive-engine tender, freight or passenger car upon such railroad, or any portion of any train thereon, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine not exceeding fifty dollars ($50), or by imprisonment not exceeding 30 days, or by both such fine and imprisonment. California Penal Code section 369i 369i. (a) Any person who enters or remains upon the property of any railroad without the permission of the owner of the land, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession and whose entry, presence, or conduct upon the property interferes with, interrupts, or hinders, or which, if allowed to continue, would interfere with, interrupt, or hinder the safe and efficient operation of any locomotive, railway car, or train is guilty of a misdemeanor. As used in this subdivision, "property of any railroad" means any land owned, leased, or possessed by a railroad upon which is placed a railroad track and the land immediately adjacent thereto, to the distance of 20 feet on either side of the track, which is owned, leased, or possessed by a railroad. Californai Penal Code section 554 g 554. Any property, except that portion of such property to which the general public is accorded access, may be posted against trespassing and loitering in the manner provided in Section 554.1, and thereby become posted property subject to the provisions of this article applicable to posted property, if such property consists of, or is used, or is designed to be used, for any one or more of the following: (g) A railroad right-of-way, railroad bridge, railroad tunnel, railroad shop, railroad yard, or other railroad facility. I seem to remember that when I was arrested in oakland there was one more about refusing to leave when told to do so by an authorized representitive of the railroad. But I can't seem to be able to look it up right now. CALIFORNIA CODES PENAL CODE SECTION 217.1-219.3 18. Every person who unlawfully throws out a switch, removes a rail, or places any obstruction on any railroad with the intention of derailing any passenger, freight or other train, car or engine, or who unlawfully places any dynamite or other explosive material or any other obstruction upon or near the track of any railroad with the intention of blowing up or derailing any such train, car or engine, or who unlawfully sets fire to any railroad bridge or trestle, over which any such train, car or engine must pass with the intention of wrecking such train, car or engine, is guilty of a felony, and shall be punished by: imprisonment in the state prison for life without possibility of parole!!!! In California most rail road special agents are peace officers misc.transport.rail.americas #73495 (1 more) (1)+-(1) From: John Gillette \-[1]--[2] + Date: Sun Jan 18 22:01:57 PST 1998 I don't know how they do it in your neck of the woods but in California, some (not all) RR "bulls" have completed "POST" (Peace Officer Standards and Training) and have full Peace Officer status and authority under California state law. In other words they can arrest you anywhere in the state for any violation of the law they observe like any other peace officer. Generally, they won't take any action off the property, likewise if they do anything that could get any other p.o. fired or sued, they'll get fired or sued. Now, if they do something really dumb, their (including the company) false arrest insurance will probably cover it. They'll probably then get fired and have to move to the boonies if they ever want to work in their desired career field again. Not a lot of motivation to do more than toss (smart, friendly, cooperative) tresspassers off the property. Then again if you do something stupid, you'll probably find out the hard way. Now read this part carefully before flaming. I AM TALKING ABOUT RR POLICE IN CALIFORNIA , I am not talking about all RR Police on all lines and/or the rent-a-cops that some lines also employ (BNSF on Cajon Pass). These guys aren't any smarter than rent-cops anywhere else. Those guys you need to be careful with because they sometimes think they are real cops and may try to be heavies. These guys have been known to try to block off Forest Service roads and throw people off Forest Service land around company property in Cajon. See also:Jessie gets busted between roseville and dunsmuir and gets $405 dollar fine!!! 602 (k) Criminal Trespassing You can read the statute for yourself at the official california state law site, if your willing to do some scrolling down to 602. (k) 602. Except as provided in Section 602.8, every person who willfully commits a trespass by any of the following acts is guilty of a misdemeanor: (k) Entering any lands under cultivation or enclosed by fence, belonging to, or occupied by, another, or entering upon uncultivated or unenclosed lands where signs forbidding trespass are displayed at intervals not less than three to the mile along all exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails entering the lands without the written permission of the owner of the land, the owner's agent or of the person in lawful possession, and (1) Refusing or failing to leave the lands immediately upon being requested by the owner of the land, the owner's agent or by the person in lawful possession to leave the lands, or (2) Tearing down, mutilating, or destroying any sign, signboard, or notice forbidding trespass or hunting on the lands, or (3) Removing, injuring, unlocking, or tampering with any lock on any gate on or leading into the lands, or (4) Discharging any firearm. This section specifies the punishments for violation of section 602(k) 602.8. (a) Any person who without the written permission of the landowner, the owner's agent or of the person in lawful possession of the land, willfully enters any lands under cultivation or enclosed by fence, belonging to, or occupied by, another, or who willfully enters upon uncultivated or unenclosed lands where signs forbidding trespass are displayed at intervals not less than three to the mile along all exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails entering the lands, is guilty of an infraction or a misdemeanor. (b) Any person convicted of a violation of subdivision (a) shall be punished as follows: (1) For a first offense, punished as an infraction by a fine of ten dollars ($10). (2) For a second offense on any contiguous land of the same owner, punished as an infraction by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than two hundred fifty dollars ($250). (3) For a third or subsequent offense on any contiguous land of the same owner, by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both. (c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following: (1) Any person engaged in lawful labor union activities which are permitted to be carried out on property by the California Agricultural Labor Relations Act, Part 3.5 (commencing with Section 1140) of Division 2 of the Labor Code, or by the National Labor Relations Act. (2) Any person on the premises who is engaging in activities protected by the California or United States Constitution. (3) Any person described in Section 22350 of the Business and Professions Code who is making a lawful service of process. (d) For any infraction charged pursuant to this section, the defendant shall have the option to forfeit bail in lieu of making a court appearance. Notwithstanding subdivision (e) of Section 853.6, if the offender elects to forfeit bail pursuant to this subdivision, no further proceedings shall be had in the case.

This page is full of hyperlinks which do not show the URL, so I suggest if it interests you, that you visit http://www.reed.edu:80/~dmorton/ Since some people sadly like pictures here's a railroad map where you can click for info (almost like TV). This is mainly your source for information on riding the rails in the Northwest. By the way, how dangerous is this? If not in the PNW try these: East Coast or Midwest If you're the armchair type, of if like me you're good at book-learning, you might want to check out these books. I've also written some general hoboing advice for the beginner click here . In Oregon you can check out Eugene or Klamath Falls. or heading east on the U.P. In Washington hit the waterfront for slackaction Seattle In California there's always LaLa Land! and Barstow (twice) Since I last edited this page all the railroads have merged so see their huge root maps: BNSF UP NS My favorite town's been screwed by corporate mergers: See what happened to PDX About me: sad sack I'd love to hear your hoboing experiences, so e-mail me dmorton@reed.edu You also might be interested in another hoboing site. Sadly the hobo times is out of print, (here's a discussion of their demise) but they are on the web or check out old copies at a library.

Anyone care to add to this or shall I borrow otherpeople's experiences off the net and pretend they are mine? Only problem is, it is likely that you have discovered that I have a name and place of origin which probably means I have not had this experience. However, some of the most unforgettable people I have ever met have done this in their Past (distant and not so distant). Might I add you to the collection so the lurkers have something to read besides my posts? A real human being would be nice...

i have no hopping stories to add. we have freight trains come through here quite regularly and while waiting for them to pass, i've peered into the open cars and wondered if anyone had hopped on. we are supposedly getting amtrak through here but don't know when.

A lively discussion between hoppers and discouragers and "old-timers" http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/5346/east.html "famous train hoppers include JohnDos Passos, Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Upton Sinclair, Frank Capra, Clark Gable, John Fante, Bret Harte, and former U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas" - (plus a few friends of mine ...) For the truly Out There rail fan: Combat Railfans Home Page http://members.home.com/claygill/history.html Gone are the days of what you are wearing on your back is the clothes options for the duration. Digital cameras, camcorders, scanners and cell phones have become popular options (necessities?!) Comments, please...!

Yo Wolf! Get your stuff together and take a ride. Then tell us about it. Watch the legs, though. They tend to get in the way and you lose one or both of them. Fingers are also expendable...

Not an activity recommended for future brain surgeons or gifted painters...*grin*

Only just found my way back in here. I promised someone I would look! We don't have a culture of train hopping in the UK, so this all out of my experience, but i'm happy to learn. I rather fancy train hopping in India. On top of the carriage of course! I hope to try the Bamako to Dakar (Africa) train trip sometime, but that will definitely be inside.

If anyone is still lurking on this topic (We have to keep this from turning into females talking about what is must be like and that sort of stuff which will drive the real ones away...), what sorts of food do you live on? Everyone has heard of Hobo Stew, but what is really in it (or is that part of the charm - not knowing?!) Where do you "collect" your ingredients? Does it require your getting off the train to cook whatever the food is for that meal? How much food poisoning is happening in these places?

Ok, I've been riding for 5 years now, not on the weekend' not for the summer, it's what I do. I have ridden more than 30.000 of North American rails and have never tasted hobo/mulligan stew not even at the Hobo convention. Many myths about the American hobo have been embelished through groups like the N.H.A. who like to point fingers at people like me and my generation to make themselves look better. They say there are no "real" hoboes left in the world but where do they draw that line. The N.H.A. would like you to believe the American hobo could do no wrong, that they were forced into a life of wandering in search of backbreaking labor at slave wages but where are the stories of the whiskey soaked buffoons ever so present through out rail riding history. They are left out because they don't live up to the sdugar coated standard they created. I think our short lived history is as rich and interesting as that of the "hobo" C.C.R. page Black Metal Ryan's Page

Aloha DY (or what do you prefer to be called??!) Mahalo for the view of the other side of the coin. Fascinating stuff for someone like me watching enviously from the sidelines. Also interesting - but, somehow, not so surprising - that an organization which spends so much time in self-promotion has to do so at someone else's expense. They lose their objectivity and my readership by so doing. Thanks for your insights. Might we entice you to tell a few stories? There are others out there remembering and just waiting for a real train-hopper to kick-start their memories.

C.C.R.'s page is awesome and love the boxcar wallpaper effect on the photo pages on Black Metal Ryan's. check them out!

ccrkid (DY?!), I noted your valid statement, "I think our short lived history is as rich and interesting as that of the "hobo" " I am sure it is but there is no way ever that we are going to learn what this history is unless you help me learn by posting more. It is not something I can do myself. There are no railroads in my state. Real adventures are always more stirring and poignant and frightning then the made up sugar-coated ones put out like PR releases by the NHA. Please post some more. I am interested and would like to understand and share.

I am also curious where you got food and water (to drink - won't ask about the other uses of water)...You see, I really am interested and care about you and your fellow travellers...

I haven't had access to the internet in a while so: First let me ask, what were your implications in your statement "I won't ask about the other uses of water"? C.C.R. is a band of travelling persons between the ages of 17 and 33, we are much more tight knit than most other groups. I'd like to think we represent a more resourceful, self sufficient faction of American rail riders. We "fly signs" ie. will work for food etc. We also do returns which means that we steal retail items and return them for in store credit or cash back on occasion. Beyond that there are hundreds of other ways to make money, like working harvests, day labor and doing medical studies. On trains we always fill up 2 liter bottles or milk jugs at gas stations. I will post more soon. I appreciate the fact that this medium exists, and will encourage more of my friends to contribute. thanks

Welcome back and Aloha, You answered my questions well, and my allusions to other uses of water was a woman's question. It is something we think of as part of one of the XX in our chromosomes, I guess. Where do you bathe? That was the question, and I know it can be done on a male easier in a sink than a female. Just asking and if you don't want to answer it, that is ok, too. I am delighted that there is an autonomous group so bonded and independent still existing in the USA. I was afraid all of that had been obliterated from our collective memories and relegated to folklore status. Please return and tell us more. I know of a few very successful people who did train hopping to see the USA before they tied down with careers and families. Please, also encourage your friends to come forward also - this is your topic. I am just your interested and entusiastic cheerleader!