I read somewhere that front wheel drive setups are unreliable, especially in an engine stall in traffic. And that the bigger the engine, the more reliable the car. As in V-8. And I'm wondering still what a "mid-engine" arrangement is all about.

I answered the "mid-engine" question in the "Chrysler Sebring" topic. There are two inherent problems with front-engine, front wheel drive cars. First of all, the front wheels do all the work, bearing both driving and steering loads, while the rear wheels are uncontrolled by the driver. With rear drive cars, the rear wheels can be positioned by applying power, not an option with front drive. Secondly, weight is transerred to the rear wheels during acceleration; this gives rear drive cars more traction during acceleration, but unloads the drive wheels of front drive cars. There's also torque steer to consider, but the engineers have overcome that to a large extent; watch out with used cars, though. I haven't heard of the reliability questions you've put forward, but I do know that there is precious little space to move around in the engine bay of modern front drive cars, so maintenance is a bit labourious.

A car with a bigger engine might be more reliable than a similar car with a smaller engine, because the bigger engine is less heavily stressed. On the other hand, an oversized engine is less efficiently utilized. It all depends on what you want.

My old vehicles, like my current Ford Van with it's V-8 engine and my past vans with V-8s have always lasted, wheras my teeny Mitsubishi in my Dodge Caravan needs period rebuilding. It seems if you want an engine to last you need to get a big V-8.

I've never owned a car, and I don't know how often my brother had his Ford Cortina 2000GT overhauled (I don't think my sister-in-law knows either; she sold it shortly after my brother's death), but I still think that the longivity of the V-8s are due to their low stresses and their simple designs. Anybody have any idea of the longivity of inline sixes? Or older European fours, like the Kent engine used in Ford Escorts of the Seventies (in Europe; America didn't get an Escort until 1981) and the OHC engine used in my brother's Cortina and in the Ford Pinto in the U.S.? What about the BMC A- and B- Series? The VW boxer engine? Or the three litre Austin engines used in the Big Healeys? I also think that the older engines were overdesigned to ensure reliability, whereas today's designers stress efficiency and take engines closer to the edge.

I get the feeling I'm talking to myself, but... The Porsche layout (as used in the VW Beetle) has the potential for all the same advantages as the Issigonis layout (as used in the BMC Mini and almost all small cars being made today). It might have been the dominant layout were it not for the negative publicity surrounding the Chevrolet Corvair. Considering its humble beginnings, it is interesting to note that the last cars available in the U.S. to use the Porsche layout are expensive sports cars!

Why was the Corvair such a failure?

All this happened before I was born, so if this is wrong, will someone please correct me? The Corvair was brought out by Chevrolet in 1960, in response to the increasing popularity of imported cars like the VW Beetle. The original Corvair had a swing-axle rear suspension, which tends to tuck the outside wheel under in hard turns. Considering that the Corvair was rear-engined, this led to some very peculiar handling. Along came a lawyer named Ralph Nader, whose investigation of this problem led him to write the book Unsafe At Any Speed; the title referring to the Corvair. He also brought a lawsuit against GM when it was discovered that they were conducting a private investigation on him. During this time, the Corvair had been redesigned with a fully independent rear suspension and was a much better-handling car, but what with Nader's claims and a congressional investigation on the early cars (which came up em ty), the Corvair was doomed, along with any hope of a similar American car being built.

That's an interesting spin. I had one for a short while but got scared by all the hype too. It was in between sports cars.

sorry to break in on the conversation....!really i have been building a home since march 31 '97...my computer has been in boxes stored since that day.. i unpacked it to loggon october 22 '97 i can find no trace of Worlds Chat Gold - hostname resolved ? i cannot locate their web page. can anyone fill me in! i have been a hermit for the past 7 mo. comp up -- i have out of town guests comming this weekend ....would really like this program info . 10-24-97 2:30 pm ct rholy@viptx.net thank you robin

Well, we'll try to help you and we might want to move to another topic other than mid-engine cars. Have you tried a net search for this name? What have you tried? Can you give us more details? We'll see if we can get you back on the road again. By the way, you're welcome to join our converstation that is going on here on the Spring.

Since 1980 I'm riding 4 cyl. traction cars. Mostly never had much problem with them. Had a 1980 dorge Reliant, and rodo more than 100,000 miles without openig the motor. Only chronic problem was the front weels bearing (bad conception). I own a 1990 Sunbird 2.2 liters with 105.000 miles on the odo, and did only standard maintenance. I think that if you ride your car according to their capacities there's no problem. Traction car are the best ones in snow condition. On dry, I would prefer a propulsion. Yves

on springs\ i have q great truck.. 83 ford ranger. that was the last year with a carb! i want to put keyless ignition and entry. it has a multi-flaked BLACK paint job. on the hood and front it had flames . they were removed . now there is a picture of the coolest red neck wisard on the hood . the windows are tinted darkest limo black. digital dash/w cherry veneer. the door knobs and key on both doors removed. back sliding glass nokia cell w\universal holder in roof. custom milage,clock,date & map lite in roof concole. .. cordless radar.. has a cattle gaurd ..w\fog & high beams in center of grill the license plates are supr custom... State Of The Art Texas tags look them up of course personalized ( YLUST ) it has a ford bedliner w\ saddle tool boxes the truck took a lot of work..there was a lot of chrome. now total black-like midnigt rider + kool wheels - both plates are neon. narley stereo there's a sixties piece sign aired also where it used to say ford on the grill it has 3 large dome lite on the top of the cab which are hooked to dash lites..adjust brightness. it makes a excellent work truck! suspension is new ..calif. catal. & emissin control '91 ('New' engine) air , cruise custom race pedals only coil and leaf springs w\mean shocks suspension coming up...the truck can be 4-wheel drive for starting 1200.00 hey i have 2 bikes The yam 1100 has air shocks...the other is a suzuki GL1000L i guess im an old hippie w\mechanical loves

The problem with newer vehicule is that they are almost mecanicly untoutchable whith all their computer driven system.

That's not a problem with a pickup truck I saw yesterday. It's a Volkswagen, with the old boxer engine right behind the driver and apparently driving the front wheels. It's a cab-forward design, and the front looks like it's made from the same flat steel sheeting as the VW "Thing", or Caribe as it's known here in M�xico. All those computer driven systems in modern cars are a nightmare in Jamaica, where mechanics will never admit that they don't know something and will keep hacking around until they destroy everything.

In Mexico or contries wihout there's loth of old (more than 10-15 years) vehicule in good condition. So you can look for car whith simple mechanic. Here, after 10 years the car is gping or gone to scrapyard. Cause the body is faling apart. So if you buy a used car, you have to pay for repairs and it's better to go where they have computers to check your car. A trick that I sotimes use is to go to the dealer, explain the problem as if you were taking in the car, he tells you what could be the defective par , buy that part (somewhere else) and make the repair. It's work (sometimes)

The midle-engin in a pick-up is a great idea. The problem with them is: all in front, nothing in the back. So you have to put some weight behind the rear wells to have a bit of grip.

The Toyota Previa mini-van is mid-engined. Weight behid the rear wells? That sounds like a rear-engined set-up, like the Microbus or the Vanagon. I made a mistake earlier. I said "cab-forward" instead of "cab-over". Wonder why there aren't any cab-over pickup trucks for sale in the U.S.? My employers in Jamaica use one, make by the Korean firm Kia.

O.K., this is the post from the Chrysler Sebring Convertible topic: A mid-engined car, like the Fiat X-1/9 or the Lamborghini Countach (talk about extremes!), has the engine behind the driver but in front of the rear wheels. Other mid-engined cars of note are (affordable): the Pontiac Fiero, the Toyota MR2, (semi-affordable): the Porsche 914, (unaffordable) the Porsche Boxster, the Ferrari 308, Lamborghini Urracco, Lamborghini Jalpa, Lotus Esprit (REALLY unaffordable) Lamborghini Miura, Countach, Diablo, Ferrari Testarossa, F40, Bugatti EB110, Vector, etc. Most racing cars nowadays are mid-engined. I'll look for other stray engine placement posts and put them here.

Sam, excellent posts regarding layout! And Robin, check that Motorcycle conference, I'd like to hear about the 11! Sounds like quite the cruze-truck BTW. After 8 years with FWD cars, a Hyundai & my Integra, I've had enough. The oversteering is a royal pain I can't get used to, and the winter traction is equal to a rear-wheel/front motor car if driven properly in all but extreme conditions. For the extremes, which I now get where we live, I'm going to all-wheel (Forester). My VW buggy is a great handler in all but rain. And the Corvair was given a really raw deal by politicians and the ties at Chevrolet. With very little suspension work that car can keep up with bikes in the corners. Sorry, I'm in a hurry..

"understeering"; the Integra is an understeerer, sorry!

Checxk out Yves' comments about 4WD undre Subaru SVX (just remembered 'em!) I may move them here, but I'm a lazy soul...

Topic 14 of 22 [cars]: Subaru SVX Response 4 of 6: Yves G. (yves) * Fri, Oct 31, 1997 (04:17) * 4 lines They sold the Viva only 2 or 3 years on GM dealers. Parts were just a bit more expensive than US ones. 4Wd are not very popular cause roads are cleaned up very fast around big centers.Most of the time it's easier to lose control with a 4wd. We encounter lot of icy or slippery conditions and when you lose traction on 4 wells at the time, your in great trouble. With traction or prop you can desaccelerate or accelerate to get back in line with the 2 non spinning wells (am I clear,I'm not sure). We often see 4wd out of the road. Maybe the excess of confidence is in cause but not always. I remember last winter, my neibour (he is a Chrysler dealer and is used to drive lot of different cars and trucks) was driving ( a bit to fast)a 4wd (integral) van and lost control of it. He told me that when he tried to retrive control there was noting to do. Having a 4wd for me is much for leisure than every day vehicule. Topic 14 of 22 [cars]: Subaru SVX Response 5 of 6: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Fri, Oct 31, 1997 (08:56) * 11 lines I remember seeing an ad for Ford Cortinas in a late '70s edition of Reader's Digest Were there a lot of British or German Ford or GM cars in Canada? Are there now? Let me see if I follow you: "Traction" = front wheel drive (pulling the car, hence "traction") "Propulsion" = rear wheel drive (pushing the car, hence "propulsion") The theory is that traction is more evenly distributed with 4wd, and that, with the more recent systems, power can be sent away from the wheel that can't use it and to the wheel that can. However, I now realize that there is less load on each powered wheel (but there are more of them) which would make them more likely to lose traction (but less likely to dig themselves into sand or loose earth). Does Subaru offer traction control on their cars? Here's one: Topic 14 of 22 [cars]: Subaru SVX Response 6 of 6: Yves G. (yves) * Sat, Nov 1, 1997 (02:49) * 5 lines Now, 4wd. The main question is what do you have to do whit it. When you have to break the inertie of the car (in mud, sand, big amount of snow..) the computer assisted 4 wells traction (integral)is just great (the traction goes to the wells that can do the work). But were it is dangerous it's when you are mouving on a equaly slippery surface as ice or else. On this condition, all the wells are spinning,=making friction=making a thin layer of water on your tires (as if it was water on tiles)=losing all possible control. When you have only one or two wells out of control, you still have a chance to recover the direction cause the wells without traction keeps(not always) grip and by adjusting the amount of power (opposite on traction and propusion) you can stay on the road (or near :o)). But I'm not closed on learning 4wd driving technics...

I didn't realize I had three responses there. Only italicized one. Sorry!

That's cool, you're getting the hang of it. It's great the way this conference is emerging and evolving. What a stellar addition to the Springs conferences. And even a few folks are starting to venture out to our "other" topics like cars. It's open season on other topics here ya' know!

Who or what's the stellar addition? Me? Frank? The XRoads survivors in general? I may go to the music topic but I'm not certain. Two are a handful (less so since XRoads finally died). If you think this place is lively as it is (actually this place isn't, but the "Motorcycle" conference is), then you should see what Eirik could have done to it! Eirik has sworn off of bulletin boards; before he did that, he was one of the most valued members of XRoads. We all still miss him.

BTW, by this place, I meant the "Cars" conference, not the Spring in general.

Hey all I say is the Volvo 480 must be a hell of a car we're missing here (o: Let's remember to differentiate 4WD & AWD: the new generation all-wheelers are much more practical overall in that there's less unsprung weight, more convenience, and better control in most conditions; that's why I'm hyped on the Forester after looking everything over recently. BTW, this morning I took my Integra in for new CV joints (160K mi) for $600+. This is the last repair. I recommend the Integras to anyone who never drives rough or weathered roads as the best value by far, but, I'm not there any mo e..

I saw 2 Volvo 240 in a drivway. Is that is a 480? I learned that AWD as you call it, is 90% front 10% rear in normal condition, and the transfer (mechanical) is done when there is a difference in that ratio. it's looking good. I think that the biggest problem with any kind of vehicule is overshooting the car's (and physisal) limits.

A 240 is by no means a 480. The 240 is one of the last classic Volvos; front engine/rear drive (propulsoin?) layout, with a look dating from the Sixties and a big, heavy, safe body. The 480 is a light front-drive (traction?) car built at the old DAF factory in the Netherlands (Volvo bought DAF, but not before they sold their CVT design). I don't think it was exported to Canada, I know it wasn't exported to the U.S.