I posed this very series of questions to Matthew McClure recently and his response: I think the Farm failed for a number of reasons. - People got disenchanted with living in poverty, especially those who were working hard while others were hardly working. - People who had previously thought of Stephen as a living Buddha began to question his realization. I think that was the big one, actually. - People felt that there was a class system on the Farm, that people who were close to Stephen got more access to goodies than others. I don't know whether it could ever be resurrected. "Ever" is a long time, so I wouldn't want to rule it out; but there's still a lot of unpleasant feelings among people who left--and among people who still live there towards people who left. So I kind of doubt that the Farm, per se, in Tennessee, is likely to have a serious renaissance. On the other hand, all things are possible with Allah.

hmmm...

It will become more than 'The Farm' and based upon the teachings of a single man... The Farm-like land-based community environment will eventually be the way the world will be. Not quite the same as the Farm, but in it's essence, the same. The Farm was an experiment, and much was learned, enough to show that small tight communities are excellent for living sane and safe. This is not the immediate future though. Perhaps in a hundred years, perhaps more. The fact is, history never repeats itself, because technology, population, and the environment has always continously changed. Some of the new indicators which I think will have an effect are; the rich countries have a very negative population growth now, there is a slow realization that comprehensively designed technology does not have to harm the environment, there are new forms of government being discovered, There is mo e communication between people every day globally, and the concept of money as some kind of natural conceptual system is being questions more and more every day... As to the Farm's reasons for breaking apart, I think there were four reasons also; -We had gone from a Mahayana social orientation to a heirarchy, and the heirarchy sold us out, -We had outside government blackops efforts to divide and dissolve us. I saw this happening during the last year or so of the Farm but couldn't pin it down or get evidence, but it allowed me to predict the demise of the collectivity almost exactly. I was trained in black ops, and worked against it at the time, but with a heirarchy running us, I was unable to do anything much. It only takes two operatives to destroy any group. -The census we had showed two major age peaks on the Farm, the adults and a wave of kids. Our teen 'wave' had a majority of kids who thought the Farm adults were stupid and really keeping them from living the rich interesting lives they saw on television. They actively destroyed everything they could manage to destroy. I have had a number of them come to me and apologise for that time. Also, the low opinion many in the heirarchy had of the average farm person was stupid. We did not have to be poor or just work our bodies. Ideas, any ideas, were simply ignored except those from the inner circle of the heirarchy, and they thought we were all too stupid to listen to and only worth the work our bodies could do. They managed our meetings like a bunch of teachers managing a kindergarden class of retards, and frankly most of the Farm were too scared of the heirarchy to speak up. The Farm was t e smartest gathering of people I have ever seen, and the heirarchy just wasted all that mindpower. As I said, we were politically naive.

Imagine millions of Farms...

Could you explain the term "Mahayana social orientation" and why adhering to this would have kept the Farm intact. What could have happened differently to avert the Farm's demise. And using words like "fail" and "demise" are not stated as fact, as many may believe the Farm was a success throughout, so I'm tossing these out to stir some discussion and provide representation for those who do feel this way.

Hi, why did The Farm fail?? -We had gone from a Mahayana social orientation to a heirarchy, and the -heirarchy sold us out, for real, Stephen doesn't like to mention that The Farm was payed off with "pauper monk"'s inheritances...not thru anything HE did. -We had outside government blackops efforts to divide and dissolve us. I saw -this happening during the last year or so of the Farm but couldn't pin it down -or get evidence, this seems a bit paranoid...but I must say I was gone in like 1980. what kinda "black ops" are we talking about?? -Also, the low opinion many in the heirarchy had of the average farm person was -stupid. We did not have to be poor or just work our bodies. Ideas, any ideas, -were simply ignored except those from the inner circle of the heirarchy, this did hurt us a LOT -and frankly most of the Farm were too scared of the heirarchy to speak up. I'll admit I'm guilty here, I chose to just leave instead of making major combat as a lowly single man.

not to but in, but: - Ideas, any ideas, were simply ignored except those from the inner circle of the heirarchy, and they thought we were all too stupid to listen to and only worth the work our bodies could do. This is something I hope to avoid here on the Spring. So, if anyone has any suggestions concerning the Spring as a whole, or any of the topics (and I hope that everyone does a little exploration around here...) please post your thoughts... now, back to your regularly scheduled conversation...

Yeah, that black ops thing threw me too. We have a paranoid guy on Austin public tv always talking about black helicopters circling over his house. What is this rage with the color black and conspirators?

I know of the conspiracy paranoia, and don't put much credit into most of it, but you do have to realize that the military/industrial complex had an almost bottomless secret cash drawer during the cold war years. They set up all kinds of secret operations. They are called Black Ops because they were hidden, like behind the secrecy. The rumors are like 'purloined letter' strategy, where if some info gets out, they flood those who pay attention with a million slightly different versions of that info, so nob dy can figure out which is true. This is a standard procedure in Information Warfare, taught even when I was in in 1968. I was trained by the CIA. If you were a car mechanic, would you be able to tell if someone had 'messed with' a car? Like took a sledge to the engine block? (grin) There is an equation which allows two or more agents to dissolve any sized group based upon a hierarchical organization. This may have been why we generated a hierarchy, because without a hierarchy the formula doesn't work. How that works is obvious if you know the formula, and I could see it happening on the Farm. At least two people were worki g it, and it was working. Even Stephen was caught in it, in that the data he was getting was highly filtered, so he had little idea of what was actually going on. Leaders, in the formula, are isolated, and data is filtered through the agents. I tested this when one Sunday, Stephen got up and said that our books were completely transparent and anyone could see them anytime. Someone had told him that, and he believed them. So, Monday morning, I went up to the Foundation office and asked to see the books. I sat there an hour or more, waiting, and finally a couple of guys came down and told me I should be out working, not sitting there. I told them I was following up on what Stephen had said at Sunday services and wanted to see the books. After they tried every excuse they could come up with, some obviously pure lies because they contradicted each other, they told me they were not going to show me the books, period. I knew then it was confirmed. A agency was indeed working in our community to destroy it. Later, after the dissolution, I found out that the Farm had been declared a 'domestic terrorist organization', which frees up huge amounts of funds to be used in breaking up such 'terrorist' groups. Who sold out? I don't know. Another, a previous indicator, was when I was doing Gate one morning. A guy came in and zeroed in on me. It was suggested that I take him with me as I went around doing trickle charge work, so I did. During the day, he kept checking out the houses we went to, looking under the floor platforms, looking into sheds, etc, and was obviously more than just curious. He asked me all kinds of questions, sometimes the same questions worded differently, obviously trying to get me to say something he was looking for. After about 6 hours of working together, I managed to turn it on him, and in the next hour he told me he had been sent to the Farm by the CIA with two purposes, one, to check up on me, since I was one of several people on the Farm with Gorilla /countergorilla warfare training, very useful to terrorists, and second, to see if he could detect any sign of weapons or explosives. It turned out he had been trained in the same Special Forces unit I had been in, in the next room in the barracks, which is why they picked him. He even showed me his CIA credentials and his drivers license from Saudi Arabia, his last assignment. I took him to the machine shop, the motor pool, and back through the woods, giving him a through tour of the Farm to show him what we really were, and he left thinking hard about what he had been doing. But, it revealed more by the fact he had arrived at the gate precisely when I was about to get off Gate Duty, and I am sure he had a description of me, which meant someone on the Farm had set up the meeting who knew I was going to be there right then. Perhaps the same person suggested that I take him around with me, which suggests that there were two Farm people who were working together with the CIA in that instance. The indicators I perceived were many and varied, although not as clear as those two. Someone was taking a sledge hammer to the block, and it was obvious to me. Paul asked what I meant by 'Mahayana' social system... in a Mahayana social system, everyone is seen as equal in their basic person, even if they have made mistakes. I saw that there was a basic Mahayana system on the Farm when I arrived, and it was one of the reasons I joined. There is a basic respect, which I seldom observed broken, between folks. The strawboss thing was more by common agreement rather than 'appointed' and it was understood that the community ruled itself with Stephen as a kind of 'focu ' of the common agreement. During the time I was there, I saw it change into a full blown hierarchy, where respect was upward flowing and control was downward flowing. Folks were more and more isolated by fear and a diminishment of self-respect, until I started hearing people say stuff like, "We have to trust our leaders completely." and "Don't ask me, it's not my problem. Go ask ...... who is in charge of that." All of which I heard not at all or only in a totally different context in the years before then. By the time of the great confrontation at the wood school, when the Foundation folks came down as acted like dictators of a banana republic, I knew we had been done to and were on the way out. By fail and demise I am referring to the incredible good influence on the world the Farm had before the Exodus. We were becoming a real force for honesty, good vibes, and the success of not using the control system called 'money'. When the Farm dissolved as a collective, that influence disappeared. Now I rarely meet someone who has ever heard of the Farm, and know Farm Folks who are ashamed that they were ever on the Farm. We were an example. We are no longer an example. It's that simple. However, the fo ce which brought us about which is beyond any one of us, is still working for Humanity, and there will be new Farms, different in details but basically the same. I think most of the poverty was part of the formula, at least the last 4 - 5 years. It had to be deliberate, because we were dynamic and intelligent, and if we had not been held down, we would have flourished in any terms. The hierarchy is part of the formula, but so was the poverty and the steadily growing isolation. It was a classic example of the old paradigm stomping a new paradigm, and to be expected under the circumstances. It was and will be successful in the long run, because now we are out here, and doing it everywhere. Even if most of the Farmies gave up and became cynical, the ones that remain will continue. I certainly will. And we are not alone.

Hey WER, for my personal info would you throw in a denotative contrast for me between paranoid and cynical... thanks. just not quite able to extract my own connotative meanings out

I'm paranoid when I think you've stopped talking to me because I've said something too stupid or too offensive for you to continue wasting your valuable time on me... I'm cynical when I believe that you've stopped talking to me because I'm lacking in conversational abilities and question why would you waste your valuable time on me anyway... (I know, weird examples, but hey, it was the first thing that came to mind...)

*smile* *hug* yes... you are.

be that as it may or main't, can you draw your own connotations now?

(wiping formerly silly grin off of my face) I'm sorry. I must've forgot my train of thought. *ahem* I mean thank you william for the clarification.

(and, it wasn't a current question, I just know that we've talked about that before so I figured it would be a good example, and like I said, it was the first thing that came to mind...thanks, though...hope you're well)

what's with the william? what did I do to deserve that?

something. (see mailbox) nothing. (sorry)

? (check your mail) ? (no need to apologize)

but my mailbox is empty... (?)

really, I just mailed you...

to stacey@www.spring.net ?

nope, I didn't check your name in here...oops, you should change your e-mail address to spring.net and not spring.com...hang on a sec and I'll re-email ya...

(empty box still...)

that's because you're there and I'm here... I don't get it, either, as the one I mailed to you at spring.com hasn't bounced back... the short(est) version of the e-mail is that I can't check Juno currently, so you need to e-mail me at rotazo@aol.com...

Hmmmm...interesting how each of us look at certain situations, indeed. Instead of concluding that The Farm "failed", might we consider that it merely went through, and is still going through, a series of changes that branch out from the original ideas? Are we the same now as we were 25 years ago? Interested in feedback...

I use the word 'failed' only in terms of the influence of the Farm as a community, which was lost when it lost the collectivity that was such a wonderful example of love/trust in action. That existed despite any internal problems. It was a synergy that was spiritual and wonderous, and beyond expectation considering the society we were surrounded with. That is the main reason I don't condemn Stephen, for he brought something good about, even with it's faults, some of which might have been from his own spir tual myopia. The Farm exists now as something in the hearts of a lot of folks around the planet and some folks on the land. The land is the Farm only in name, and it was never about the land anyway. The question has been, for me, ever since then... Does the Farm still exist in any sense of what it had been, in our hearts, or is it now just a moment in history? I would have, at almost any time, moved back in somewhere with other Farm folks and done the communal thing again, in the same spirit, because of all in my lif that I found valueable, truely spiritual, that heart-goal was the most incredable expression of love there was, and the world needs that example more than ever. Love and Peace to you and yours, -Roan

Thanks, Roan. I lived on the Farm, just recently, and grew up in Summertown, watching the caravan roll into town back in the early 70's. Seems that I have always been a part of the Farm, either as an observer or an activist in some activity/cause that was sponsored by the Farm. I didn't live on "the old Farm", but, like you, many were and still feel discontentment (perhaps putting it lightly!) over the direction(s) taken and the "hierarchy" that eventually came about. Many have shared their thoughts and i eas re: the reason(s) behind the changeover in the early 80's and what particular events led up to it. It seems that battling egos was always mentioned, first. Perhaps the demise of the original concept(s) was in the way that this clash of egos was dealt with, and, not particularly bacause of the "clash" itself...the increase in the formation of "committees" to make the ultimate decisions seemed to be the final blow for alot of folks... "Does the Farm still exist in any sense of what it had been, in our hearts, or is it now just a moment in history?" There is still a strong sense of community that is felt first, then observed, on the Farm today. Seems, though, that, no matter what each of our experiences might have been, the very idea that it was something that was so strong to have planted itself deep within our hearts to carry with us, wherever we go, suggests that the word "failure" might not be the true outcome, after all... Peace to you, my friend, Annette

I felt some of that, and felt it the time they moved the Ragweed celebration from the 11th to the 4th and I missed it... I felt it going on that weekend telepathically, an amazing energy, but didn't know that was the source of that energy. I was looking forward to the next weekend, to Ragweed, and it was over... a massive disappointment. The Farm was my tribe. I loved it. In the sense of a continuing community --as memory and associations-- it was not a failure and in fact a strange sort of success. That we feel so strongly about the Farm 25+ years later, and many have lifetime friends from the experience shows that it was a success in human terms. But the test is, though, did that sense of community survive as a willingness to do or help to do more such communities, or did it cause people to believe that such a community is somehow naturally impossible? The Farm had a re son to exist that drew me and many others to it, the idea that we were going to evolve a form of living which was sustainable and effective and efficient and could fit in any part of the world, this was important, and I don't see it now. It is more important now than ever. The world needs it. We may have been politically naive and let it get away, but we need to be committed to bringing it back again, and apply the lessons we learned to make a better community with new generations. That synergy must not be lost or degraded into some foolish conviction that such communities are impossible for long term existance because of our allowing it to fade away. The world needs sane communities, because the global community that now exists is not su tainable for the long term.

I see your point, indeed. I, too, also agree that the world needs more sane and self-sustainable communities. Like you, I tend to wander how long this type communal existance will be able to continue...one thing I became aware of was, even though the spiritual energy of individuals was high, there was a lacking effort, overall, as far as preparations for the simple survival of the community, i.e. food and water preparations for the event of some kind of disaster, be it weather, loss of electricity, Y2K and such...I think that spiritual and emotional health is all great and beautiful, but, making sure that the community is taken care of in times of need, by working on a cooperative level, is a dire neccessity. In a sense, it almost encourages people to think of themselves, first - back to the real world hmmmmmmm...?

This was originally written to FNN in response to Rupert Fike's letter about the mens' circle last year at Ragweed. I decided to post it here after reading some of what has been posted here, at Roan's suggestion. It deals to a certain extent with "why the Farm failed," a subject I can go on about for pages, although that gets to be like refighting the civil war in the 1870's as time passes and things fall apart. I feel that I need to say in opening that I am not personally angry with anyone in the tribe; indeed, it is the sense of family-arity I feel with so many people that impels me to say such (apparently) unpopular things. Stephen always used to stress the importance of speaking the truth as we saw it regardless of social niceties, and that�s what I�m doing. Rupert's brutally honest letter about the mens� circle was almost enough to make me cry, and I certainly considered �if only I�d been there.� But really, the War on Drugs has succeeded in shifting the terms of discussion enough that it�s hard to even talk about some things rationally. Remember Stephen�s tale of Dr. D and �The evidence bureau�--whoever controls the evidence, controls reality? LSD has become a very handy scapegoat. It is not just illegal, it�s heretical, and thus doubly difficult to stand up for. Media pressure has been used as a brainwashing tool so that not only the history books, but our own memories are rewritten to erase the nobility of what we did and the truth of what we saw. As long as LSD was legal, the problem Rupert mentions (�some form of [long-term] debilitating head space from the combination of taking acid while already having an impossible to diagnose susceptibility to psychosis, bipolar disorder, etc...�) was unheard of in relation to psychedelics. In fact, they were considered miracle drugs for healing pretty much every mental disorder--except paranoia. Even autism was treatable. Guided LSD use was found to be a valuable means of lowering prison recidivism. ( y source on this is Jay Stevens� well-written and well-documented history, �Storming Heaven.� Even if you don�t care for anything else I have to say, please read this book.) That word, �guided,� is part of the key. Scheduling of LSD made any kind of control of it impossible. (Whoever called it the �Controlled Substances Act� had a truly Orwellian sense of humor!) LSD went totally out of control. Everyone who attempted to connect it with a wisdom tradition was persecuted out of business. ( Stephen ducked out of this danger by renouncing LSD, even rewriting Monday Night Class to remove all the acid references. This seems to me to have been one of our/his first steps on th road to fatal compromise.) The tragi-comic movie �Dazed and Confused� is a poignant portrayal of the spiritual bankruptcy that this decapitation of the hippie church brought about. I recently reread a phrase that Stephen employed that I think is extremely relevant here: � Discipline while tripping.� Our society has a very poor understanding of mental discipline, especially as something that can be taught. Traditional societies naturally instill it in their members, but our commercial culture finds us more pliable as consumers without it. (People with mental discipline aren�t addicted to shopping--or anything else, for that matter.) This lack is one of the wellsprings from whi h the �mental illness epidemic� has arisen. Stephen�s life circumstances taught him some mental discipline, and I think much of his teaching activity in San Francisco and on the early Farm was an attempt to impart that to us, his spiritual students. I think he had some success, but when he quietly retired from the active guru-role he didn�t leave any dharma heirs, or even a method that could be applied without a direct, personal relationship with him. I think our lack of mental discipline shows in how easily we were stampeded (including me!) into abandoning our basic agreement at the time of the coup in 1983. I�m not talking about diet and finances here--I�m talking about being Stephen�s ashram--embodying his spiritual teachings about ego and socio-cultural deconditioning within the community and amplifying his social vision in the world. I read a lot of self-congratulatory letters in FNN about how the Farm is still a cool place, but the fact is th t we have not offered a coherent alternative vision of reality or acted in concert since we quit being collective. I, too, have a strong suspicion that the U.S. government viewed our involvement with Native American rights and the anti-nuclear movement, our anti-consumerist stance (including feeding ourselves), and other such causes that we as a community championed as a threat in much the same way that they considered the Sandinistas a threat. �Our� government, through �subtle� manipulation, made it look like the Sandinistas were voted out in a fair election. If they could stampede several million Nicaraguans, wh not a few hundred naive hippies? It�s a matter of public record that �Operation COINTELPRO� was used to destabilize cultural organizations in the black community. It is known that the CIA had extensive ties with rural southern banks in order to launder money, among other things. How much do any of us really know about that oh-so friendly banker in Hohenwald who encouraged us to borrow so much money and then split the country, turning us over to the not-so-tender mercies of the FDIC? The Farm was destroyed with the same tactic the IMF uses: cut social services in order to pay the debt, and damn the human cost. I have known many of the second-generation Farmers who Rupert characterizes as being in �a debilitating head space,� and I thought they lacked mental discipline long before anybody else seemed concerned about them. I tried to do what I could, and can acknowledge failures as well as successes. I don�t think most people in my generation appreciated my efforts. When I lived in Vermont, I worked in the mental health field for five years and got to observe the effect of so-called chemical cures for mental illness on many people. These drugs deprive individuals of an important aspect of their mental capacity--the gritty part, that uses conflict creatively and helps us learn and evolve. Sometimes what is necessary to cure �mental illness� is the time and space to live out one�s craziness, to hit bottom, to have an epiphany, to hear the spirit. The mental health system is not structured to accomodate radical breakthroughs; these things won�t happen on meds, mostly. Meds make it so you�re not so much trouble to the rest of the hive. I think that someday we will again understand that the religion of economics has led us seriously astray by decreeing that the yardstick of mental health is being able to hold down a money-earning job in mainstream society--to pass dociley through the school system and into the workforce and never do anything that does not make economic sense. For all but the last hundred years of human history, people have mostly done other things with their lives than earn money. We have hunted, herded, fished, and farmed; we have gone alone into the vastness of the natural world to find ourselves; we have gathered in monasteries or isolated ourselves in hermitages to spend lives devoted to seeking a higher truth than the ultimately dreary round of money, food, and sex. (And yes, we mostly didn�t live as long as some of us get to now.) We are not ants, we a e apes, and apes who have touched the infinite at that. None of this is acknowledged in the mental health profession, or anywhere else in contemporary society. Once again: why do we have so many people taking (psychiatric) drugs to �help them adjust�? On another tack, let�s examine this phrase, �drug abuse,� that has been one of the Inquisition�s prime weapons in slandering our religion. Let�s compare it to �child abuse.� A drug is abused; a child is abused. Is it the child�s fault? Why does it become the drug�s fault? Rupert cited the adage, �once you get the message, hang up the phone and do something� relative to whether it is appropriate to keep using psychedelics. I will say that I have found it enormously helpful to call back from time to time and make sure I�ve still got the message right. The health of the planet is dire right now. It is threatened by our greed, anger, and ignorance, which are concretized in our whole way of life--our government, our business/financial structure, our health care system, and many other well-entrenched cultural institutions whose tentacles reach right into (and even out of) our heads and hearts. We have been gifted with some incredibly powerful healing tools in the psychedelics. These tools can be used to dissolve those three poisons of greed, anger, and ignorance, and for this reason their proper use directly threatens all the powers that be in this time. They will stop at nothing to preserve themselves, even if it means the destruction of both the entire natural world and the freedom of the human soul. It was to counter this that we originally banded together. We need to remember to be proud of that. We need to admit our failures and learn from our weaknesses, and we need to stay in touch with the Source that originally inspired us, or we may find ourselves, as George Orwell wrote in �1984,� �under the spreading Chestnut Tree, where I sold you and you sold me.� It sounds like that�s where the Ragweed Mens� Circle was held. Oops. In the spirit of Crazy Horse mph

Martin, glad you're jumping in to the conversation and hope you stick around. I'm going to need to spend some time re-reading your post, but it's got some very interesting insights such as the role of self discipline in the changes that the Farm went though. I didn't know MNC had been hacked in this way, have you seen http://www.spring.net/~wmmeyers where William is proposing a new edition of MNC? On the personal level, where are you these days? What neck of the woods?

Hey, Terry, thanks for posting that! In answer to your question on LaughingSky's Cloud, I moved back off of The Farm back in December. I am now back in nearby Hohenwald, where I lived before I moved there. I am still visiting there, often, and have plans to attend the Unity Festival on Memorial Day weekend! :)

You mean, Ragweed Day? Now it's the "Unity Festival"?

I read all of this post and this was the only part that I take issue with: On another tack, let�s examine this phrase, �drug abuse,� that has been one of the Inquisition�s prime weapons in slandering our religion. Let�s compare it to �child abuse.� A drug is abused; a child is abused. Is it the child�s fault? Why does it become the drug�s fault? Here is your answer: A child is a human being he has feelings, he bruises, he bleeds....a drug (any drug) is an object it can have no fault in the first place and in the second place, it can be used without being abused. Many people, especially on the Farm, were in denial about the harm that marijuana can do. It is a precious gift of nature and it was never meant to be smoked all day or even every day. The native Americans never smoked it like that. It is too bad that the establishment was/is able to talk about marijuana and drug abuse but that is only to be expected when people don't respect it and abuse it instead of just using it. I find it especially sad that people I know and love can rarely partake because of random drug tes s at jobs they need to keep and this is only because so many people have not kept a good relationship with grass. The same thing happened with LSD. It was such a wonder, such a hope for mankind when it first came around and it got into the hands of people that abused it and now it is far too risky for many reasons to use although I would love to take it again if I could.

So, if the Farm failed then what is happening at the Farm in Tennessee? I have never visited it myself. I only know what I have read and information that I have gathered at Rainbow Festivals. Many of the people that I talked to were very disenchanted with the way things were done. Are all intentional communities destined to fail in this type of society where all things material are holy but all things spiritual are deemed recreational?

It's keepin' on, in a different Farm. You no longer go there and give everything to the Bank Lady, but some of the ideals live on. I don't think all intentional communities are destined to fail, in fact, I feel like they'll make a comeback when the folks who started some of them get older and when Social Security fails, then we'll see the wisdom of living together and cooperating for the greater good again. The Farm has already started Rocinante for retired folks, though I haven't heard how it's doing lately. Glad you're joining the discussion, Maybe Annette and some of the other folks who actually live on the Farm or who are closer to the scene will join in the conversation again.

I have visited the Farm website and seen that they are so many classes that are offered. I would love to study midwifery with the farm midwives. Ever since I have read Spiritual Midwifery, I am so in awe of these women. I could not imagine what a sense of responsibility these women must have. After all, they are in overseeing the health of so many women not just on the farm but they also care for women out in town. I was so tempted to travel to the farm to have my last baby. But, I called Ina May and she gave me some names of women who practiced here in San Diego. I found my midwife and had a wonderful home birth. They also have so many classes about environmental construction. I really need to learn so much more about this type of construction. I want to build my own. I think this type of construction would be better than the rammed earth houses, and the earthships made out of rammed earth, tires, and aluminum cans. I think I will try and take some construction courses whenever I can.

From Judy via email: I was reading with interest the stuff on the FArm. I was in the caravan in the early 1970's from Berkley. After I graduated from nursing school in Michigan my husband and I went out there and joined in the monday night classes. At the time it was great and we enjoyed our stint with the people. We stayed for a few years and it was cool. We had some sincere churches coming in to "save' us from what they thought were our cultish ways. At first my husband and I joked about this until one night what the folks from the church were saying started to make sense. STephen was cutting up and frankly, it became embarassing. Well, I got 'saved' and finally understood just what they were saying was true. A few weeks later my husband also got 'saved'. But...even though we decided to leave we still kept up with some wonderful friendships we made. We moved back to MIchigan, bought a 100 acre farm and started to grow organic vegetables and herbs. We frequently visited the Michigan Farm, an off-shoot of the original Farm. They were on the shores of Lake Michigan. What I learned from the Farm and its great people have stayed with me throughout my life and I have to say that my involvement has changed my life. I found out that alot of what Stephen was saying was pure garbage but the self-sufficiency message, the message to be kind to the earth, and the wonderful things that we did with Plenty have helped me to make changes in my life. At 52 I am still an 'old hippie' that is not tied to the system. I learned so much from that experience. My children spent many happy times on the Farm while growing up and continue to have friends who grew up and left also. Well, I am still a nurse practitioner and working in Labour & Delivery. My old, dog-eared copy of Spiritual Midwifery still sits on my desk and I reference it frequently. I try to bring Christianity into my practice and use natural and herbal methods to make birth a more pleasant event for my mothers. God Bless You All!! - Judy

Matthew McClure said quite accurately - People who had previously thought of Stephen as a living Buddha began to question his realization. I think that was the big one, actually. That seems to jive with what a couple of people have said to me. Me personally, I'm certain Stephen does have true awakening and the only way you can really be sure is if it happens to you, to some degree. If Stephen actually awakened your consciousness. And just like with any guru/students situation, some will get if sooner than others, even Buddha had students who took longer than others. It took his personal secretary Ananda 20 years. So as far as the Farm failing, it depends on what you think the purpose was, if you see it as an ashram and Stephen as guru, then that's a whole other situation, and every person who was helped or those who were awakened by Stephen to whatever degree has to be considered a success. And those who took the flame of awakening with them will help others. As far as Stephen being a living Buddha, naw, that's pretty exalted. Perfect. I think there was this common error in thinking that awakening was the same as enlightenment and now I see enlightenment as the perfect actualization of that awakening or prit-near perfect. Stephen's definitely ahead of a lot of so-called gurus, that's for sure.

This was from Judy's response 38: Stephen was cutting up and frankly, it became embarassing. Well, I got 'saved' and finally understood just what they were saying was true. A few weeks later my husband also got 'saved'. But...even though we decided to leave we still kept up with some wonderful friendships we made. We moved back to MIchigan, bought a 100 acre farm and started to grow organic vegetables and herbs. We frequently visited the Michigan Farm, an off-shoot of the original Farm. They were on the shores of Lake Michigan. What I learned from the Farm and its great people have stayed with me throughout my life and I have to say that my involvement has changed my life. I found out that alot of what Stephen was saying was pure garbage -My ex wife was a sufi when I met her in 1980, she was living at the Lama Foundation, a spiritual community in New Mexico. Since then, she's also become a Christian, back in the mid-eighties. My daughter has also recently become one, about three years ago. I still read back thru Stephen's writings and try to understand exactly what he was saying. I think he may have been a bit authoritarian and didn't really want others to be on his level. But I have a bit of trouble seeing how a lot of what he said was pure garbage. Could you or anyone else help me out here?

That does cry out for some examples. Wonder if we could get Judy to elaborate.

It could also be a springboard to get the conversation going as far as what kind of understandings about what Stephen was really doing and was about. There have been a lot of people who lived on the Farm for varying amounts of time and Gaskin has made some bodacious claims, right from the beginning. I've talked to lots of exes who say "naw, he wasn't enlightened". Right there is some heavy duty conceptual conflict. Gaskin says he was, and exes say he wasn't. So if you were one of those who said he wasn't, then a lot of what he said would sound like hogwash. I went on to check out many enlightened teachers and something I found out was that enlightenment or awakening is pretty much it's own territory and things look quite different from that perspective than from a more self absorbed and contracted one. In my view, Gaskin WAS enlightened. I like the word awakened these days, cuz enlightenment is a process, not a one time thing, the entire mind has to be examined and deconditioned in order to be enlightened and that doesn't just happen all at once. Stephen was wrong to call himself enlightened, but nobody hardly knew about the long process in those days, all awakened teachers were calling themselves enlightened then. And then battling it out among themselves cuz they all still had various conditionings that would make them vulnerable.