I second the motion, Jon. It's a sneaky workout but great, IMHO.

Last time I went cross country was on Mt. Shasta in California. Loved it!

Sneaky? How so?

Following is all the stuff from the original thread started in Motorcycling: Steve Midgely Wrote: I ski cross country (telemark, actually) equipment on black diamond (most difficult) runs at the resorts and use the same skis for a cruise through the woods or go out to the desert after a snowstorm to ski where probably no one has skied before. Very adaptable sport. Those new high tech snowshoes are a blast too. Yeah, there were a lot of snow shoers out today. I don't quite understand. To me skiing is fun in and of itself, and cross country skiing is fun because you can go out and travel through the woods even though it's snowy--something I enjoy doing in the summer anyway. But to me it would seem that snow shoes would be nothing more than a way to extend the hiking season and get up in the woods. Where's the particular fun of walking with big pieces of aluminum and nylon webbing tied to your feet? Like I said, I enjoy hiking anyway, but I don't see the fun of flying down a down hill stretch or cutting through a turn as you have in down hill and cross country skiing. I can't judge, though, as I've never tried it. Gee, I don't have $250 to spend on snow shoes just at this moment. Telemark looks way cool, and that's what I wanted to get, but I found a set of Fischer skis in almost perfect shape with pin style bindings and my size Asolo boots (completely reconditioned and like new) for $130 so I couldn't pass it up. Perhaps later I'll get some tele bindings and boots, but in the meantime these pin style boots and bindings work great. 1 new of 15 responses total. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 1 of 15: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (20:27) * 3 lines We could actually zap it over to sports or fitness. The conferences. Good topic! But kind of a stretch to relate it to bikes. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 2 of 15: Jon Lind (triumph) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (00:05) * 1 lines Oh yeah, totally unrelated to bikes. I kinda wanted to tell my buddies what I was up to now that I can't ride, but couldn't think of a place to put it. If it's o.k. with you, Terry, I'll leave it up for a day or two and erase the entire topic. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 3 of 15: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (10:06) * 1 lines XCountry skiing is relaxing and also a great, cheap way to stay in shape during the cold weather. Once I got the hang of controlling the turns (where the thinking is similar to good riding, there, on topic?) regarding setup and entrance, it's tremendous. The only thing I enjoy in the cold outdoors! Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 4 of 15: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (10:17) * 3 lines How about a topic on "What To Do When Not Riding"? I'd monopolize that one! Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 5 of 15: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (11:03) * 1 lines LOL! Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 6 of 15: Jon Lind (triumph) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (12:30) * 1 lines You monopolize, Sam? Never! Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 7 of 15: Steve Midgley (smidgley) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (12:46) * 3 lines How about this - A few years ago, when at the end of the ski season the temperatures were in the 50's, a couple of my friends somehow packed their skis on their Norton Commando's and rode up the canyon to spend a day on the slopes. Or this - Last week, the president of CD-ROM (Crazed Ducati Riders of Maine) put a pair of short little kids skis on, put his Duc in second or third gear since he wouldn't be able to shift with the skis on and went for a ride in the snow on his 900SS. Apparently he was able to keep his balance with the skis on the snow pretty well but this didn't help him when it was time to go back up the driveway to his garage - he couldn't make it, so now his Duc gets to spend the winter at the curb. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 8 of 15: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (13:35) * 1 lines He's lucky and must be wealthy, risking a bike like that! I thought it was CDRO-Massachsetts, Steve? Guess they really are crazy.. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 9 of 15: Steve Midgley (smidgley) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (14:08) * 1 lines You're right but Maine is easier to spell! Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 10 of 15: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Mon, Dec 1, 1997 (09:34) * 1 lines I've met a few of those guys at the Dairy; they're all well-attired with Roadcrafter's or Dainese and have an obsession with modifying with all kinds of aftermaket product. But well organized and friendly. Two of them were very enthusiastic about CrossRoads. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 11 of 15: Jon Lind (triumph) * Mon, Dec 1, 1997 (12:25) * 1 lines O.K. We're moving this topic to "Fitness" (it's like 4th on the list of conferences) if you want to continue discussion on this topic. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 12 of 15: Jon Lind (triumph) * Mon, Dec 1, 1997 (12:27) * 3 lines They were enthusiastic about Crossroads? Why didn't they *use* it then? Oh, this topic will be erased on Tuesday. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 13 of 15: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Mon, Dec 1, 1997 (13:28) * 1 lines Well Jon, the guys I met seemed pretty clubby and self absorbed. I can still get hold of at least 2, they're pretty active. It's the same with the New England Sportriders; they have their cozy little web-group and get an elitist streak going (except for Judy). Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 14 of 15: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Dec 1, 1997 (20:37) * 3 lines Feel free to copy and paste what's been posted so far to the new topic. Topic 28 of 29 [motorcycle]: Cross Country Skiing (There's No Way To Make This Topical) Response 15 of 15: Jon Lind (triumph) * Tue, Dec 2, 1997 (02:10) * 1 lines Hey Steve, if you'd like, I'd enjoy learning more about Telemark skiing. I wanted to get some tele skis myself, but decided the snow might be melted before I could afford it, so I went with the used pin boots and bindings. Anyway, we can continue this discussion in the fitness area.

By "sneaky workout" I mean that at first (for me) I didn't think it was too strenuous, just very pleasant, outdoorsy travel in the cold; then I kept going and going, a little break for a sandwich by the lake, then going and going...all of a sudden you've covered a few miles and realize you have muscles you never used! I see why NordicTrack sells those machines, it's addictive. BTW I have an old set of Kneissls, waxless, pin bindings. Super cheap.

Yeah, it is a cheap sport. My Fischers (in very good shape) with the bindings was only $30. The Asolo boots (used but restored to like new condition) were $100. I bought the poles for $2 at a church rummage sale. For such a small investment I'm in business.

The boots are by far the most important piece of equipment in any kind of skiing and Asolo makes some of the best. It is possible to spend a $1000 on specialized telemark stuff and it is so specialized that it isn't much different from downhill equipment - and about as useful on level ground. I have gone with skis and boots that are somewhere in between the running shoe type "boots" and 2" wide track type skis and all out tele gear. Actually, a lot of advanced tele skiers are using downhill slalom cut ski mounted with 3-pin bindings. I do have a set of those but by far my favorites are some off brand metal edged cross country boards that do a good job both on packed snow at the resorts and touring where I'm cutting the trail. Buying used makes a lot of sense as does buying in the spring at closeout sales.

Exactly what is "tele skiing"? I understand that it's not so much a type of equipment as a style of skiing. What's a "slalom cut" ski? Mine are quite narrow and short (you sink to the ground on anything but the hardest ice), but they were cheap and they're easy to control. I wanted to get a Tele style setup because it was obvious that clipping in and out would be easier, and some of the boots I saw were completely functional as real shoes. The Asolos aren't bad shoes--they just have that duck bill that doesn't really get in the way. But I couldn't afford to buy a new setup right now and I found the boots used (but completely reconditioned) in my size and the skis, so I went ahead and got them. You can save alot of money for equipment in very good shape by buying used. Around here it's harder to find cross country stuff because down hill is so popular, but when you do find it it's alot cheaper than downhill equipment (although I paid $3 for my downhill skis, but that was an exceptional deal). Luckily there's a cross country ski shop not to far from here the owner of which is pretty enthusiastic, involved, and helpful. It's been snowing all day today and some last night. Should stop tomorrow--I'm going to go out.

Here in Montreal region there`s not enough snow yet. So it's still a very dull season. Last weekend was for the bikes winterization, the next one will be the unwax, rewax, resharpening skis time.Then playtime.

I agree about the sneaky. I didn't realize how tired I was until I was on the way back down the hill and couldn't get back up after crashing.

Exactly my wife's experience. But once you're into it, I think only swimming comes close to the complete workout you're getting. It's the only reason I find snow tolerable!

You're right--if not for that living here would totally suck. I mean, what else can you do with your time when there's a foot of snow outside? This way you can still get out and see nature and enjoy the outdoors. When it gets down to 0 (and below) in January and February, then what will I do? Uh oh.....

You will be surprised if you have the guts to kick you out the house and put you skis on at these temperatures. One secret is multi-laying clothes (to keep comfort). It's a real good feeling to have the cold biting you face in a sunny day, with you body heated by the effort. Really great.

Telemark (or just tele) skiing has become a kind of generic term for any free-heel downhill skiing as opposed to modern downhill where your boot is rigidly attached to the ski. Actually, telemark refers to a type of turn where the uphill ski is extended back and your weight is on the ball of your foot. The effect is of turning one long ski. Very elegant and also difficult to master. In practice, most "tele" skiers use a variety of turns depending on the snow and slope conditions. One of my pair of skis has just the standard three-pin bindings and must be used with the duckbill boots, the other two have bindings where the boot is wedged into the toepiece with a spring loaded cable that fits around the heel of the boot. The skis with the three-pin bindings are the shortest and lightest that I own and get used when I'm just doing some casual touring. The skis with cable bindings are better for when I'm going to be doing any downhill turns as they hold the boot on the ski better. Ther is a tendancy for the boot to twist off of the ski when you turn and the cable helps prevent that. Also, the pin-boot interface is a weak point and though I've never broken the pins, I have torn the soles off of a pair of boots at the toe. Slalom skis have the flex pattern and sidecut optimized for downhill slalom racing - they turn very quickly but aren't stable at high speeds. Some particularly strong and aggressive skiers mount them with tele bindings for downhill use but they wouldn't be much good for general touring.

Telemark is a very elegent style and I admire people doing it. You must be in good shape, specialy the legs..

My skis are very narrow and short. Easily controlled, but no matter where I go I sink completely into the snow, making cutting across the 3 foot snow drifts almost as bad as walking. With larger skis shouldn't one sink less?

I know what you mean about body heat. I go out there when it's not much above 30 with three shirts and two coats on and the next thing you know I'm down to a T-shirt, wishing I could take it off. It'll surely heat you up quickly. I went out today to practice down hilling. There's a place at Myer Ranch Open Space Park (which is not far from my house) that's near the parking lot where alot of sledders go. I tried downhilling there, but it was too fast and ended up mostly sliding down the hill on my butt. I then started going down the hill at an angle, which slowed my descent some, and I had better results. I tell you what, though, downhill is hard! The worst part is that I don't seem to get much better every time I go out. Cross country skiing ain't fun if you spend an hour going up hill and 2 hours falling down hill (having to get back up every 20 feet). Takes forever! But I don't mind wiping out.

We were serching a relationship with motorcycling, both of them keeps the butt in good shape :o)... The first time I went to school, I didn't read the first week, nether the second. You have to learn to control your speed. Maybe a smaller hill? Did you ever made down hill skiing?

First & last downhill experience: with a girlfriend, a very good skier, on a trip to some resort near Boston MA. Shop guy gears me up as a bug-eyed guy comes sailing off the adjacent run, *over* some parked cars, Boom, into the drifts outside the building. OK. Next get taken up to an "intermediate" slope; looks like a frikkin' cliff to me, get basic instructions, and it's out-of-control-time...no idea how to control thesesticks, etc. Sure ain't water-skiing! Result: I forget downhill altogether thank you.

I tried down hill once and kept wrecking. That wouldn't have bothered me much except that I couldn't figure out how to stand back up without taking my skis off. There I was--lying in the middle of the traffic with people flying around me at 100 mph and being a potential cause of a wreck. I'm going to practice getting back up (Cross Country has helped) before I go back out. I don't mind flying down the hill, wrecking, and then getting back up. It was the getting back up part that was hard, though. I had a similar experience (without the girl friend). The only slopes open when I was there were blues. As you said, it seems like a cliff. And with those huge, heavy, 190cm skis I had almost no control. They were like aircraft carriers--you'd slide them to the side to slow down and you'd just keep going. But cross country is helping, so I should be better next time I go. It's frustrating, however, as I don't seem to be getting much better each time I go out. I'm sure it'll come, though.

Maybe a slight change of terrain would help? Parks can be exhausting for a newcomer if you ask me. I learned on a golf course in Lake Placid, just enough open gentle hills and flats. then I went around the lake itself, with various terrain, trees, etc. Only landed on one guys front door after a turning miss. What or where are you skiing? Even snowed-out roads around here are pretty OK.

Roads are bad because people drive on them and they become icy. I'm skiing mostly at a little park that has a nice big (mostly) gently sloping meadow with a hill in the back that's laced with trails. Pretty nice, but you're right--it can be tiring.

If you could have someone to give you some basic technics it would help. Cause without technic, you'll work harder for the same result. But it will keep you in shape. Most important is to have fun. Do you know about waxing??

I don't think mine have to be waxed. What kind of skis do you use, Yves (and Frank)? I've got some Fischers that are super light and made out of some kind of plastic. They have a "sintered" base right under the foot so you don't have to use kick wax. Works pretty well.

The guy I've skiied with (and who got me started, basically) has helped some. Atleast he tells me all about it in the parking lot before he goes flying off without me. ;-)

Mine are fiberglass composite, and waxless although they can be waxd if you want. Make sense? They're about 10 years old. i think once you get the basics it's just practicing until you feel relaxed, like it's not work. Took me about 4 sessions before I could do it without thinking

I have 2 pairs of skis. One waxless (with kind of fish scales under the foot) and one pair that need waxing. The last ones are expensive and faster. But at temperature near 32 I hate putting those gluish waxes, and it's harder to chose the right wax cause the snow structure is instable. When it's colder the wax cover about 10 deg. differences and the temperature is more stable, sunny or not. My wife have a 20 years old pair of wooden 'Karu' skis. They need more protection but works geniously and dont ask e why but I use for them a colder wax type at around 32 deg.. We wear Salomon boots and harness. There's a slot on the boot and a track on the harness and that keeps the skis in the good direction easier. We're dooing cross-country skiing for about 20 years but are not experts. We just have fun, taking fresh air, enjoying winter. We're going tomorow for skiing, there's enought snow up north. But as Franc wrote it earlier, relaxing and having fun is the most important.

My skis have a little studded plate under the heel of your boot so when you step down you get much more control, but (of course) it doesn't effect you when your heel is off the ski. My friend (who's much more talented than me) doesn't have these and has much more difficulty as his skis kind of flop around. They're older wood skis with some older boots, so that may be his problem as well. All in all I really like the way the skis feel, but I need to get some bigger ones--I sink in on almost everything.

Can't help you on off-track skiing. For sure you need larger or longer skis but I don't have knowledge on that kind of cross-contry skiing. When I want to go in forest I put on my snow-shoes. That way I can go everywere I wanna go, dirt bushes, even climbing in mountains. You also must have the right size for your weight. P.S. Had a very nice ride today. Around 7 km. for the first one is not bad. The old man is not as old as I was expecting :o)).

Yves you're my kind' a guy!

Cool! It's been a month since I've been on the bike. Yeah, I'd like to get some snow shoes, but $200 for some anodized aluminum and nylon webbing just seems a little stiff to me.

Franc, I take that as a compliment. Jon, if you can afford $200 for a pair of snow shoes it's ok. But you don't have to. Think that you won't be on them every day. I have my wooden ones for years and are as new and ther is lot of miles on them.

No! No! No! We're skiing remember!

Oupss. But for my defence we're still in fresh cold air, in beautiful nature...:o)

That's true! I see alot of shoers where I ski (an AWESOME park). I don't mind, but their tracks can be really interesting to ski on. Especially if they're a couple of days old and you've got these big pits in the ground that are all hard and icy. Hell going up, and super fast coming down. But I would suggest anyone snow shoing around me learn to jump. I'm a menace to society on the down hill parts. It's fun, though! I went out this weekend and I can do great going down hill--I don't fall anymore (unless I need to stop or turn....). How do you turn on the dang things?

It's a simple tech. but you have to know it. Stopping and turning uses the same technic. Try it at low speed first to understand the way it's work. Get down with your skis parallel(slowly), your knees together. Then open your feet (hells) to make a *V* with your skis (the front of your skis (spatulas) not to close, about 6 in., don't let them get one over the other) and keeping you knees together. By that your skis will have an angle that make them bite in the snow. Now you're braking or slowing you down, depending of the angle that you give to your skis. Then you'll realise that if you put you weight on the right ski (just by balancing you body on your right) you'll turn to your left. And now, you're turning. Try to keep your body as strait up as possible (you'll be incline to be front leaning). It's your legs that doing the work, and keep relax, your not on TV. (maybe :o)) It's the same basic technic when you're starting down hill skiing,. Try it and give me some news.

Forgot something, I suggest you to take a bicycle horn with you, the snowshoers will jump off automatically :o)

Hee. Thanks, Yves. You should be a comedian (but perhaps in French? :-) I've only met three French Canadians. Miguel Duhamel and these two people that I met at the ski resort in Breckenridge. It embarassed me because I thought they were German! Geez. Only Russian is further from French than German is. Thanks again, I'll give it a try and let you know. That's one thing about Colorado--we get more snow than just about anywhere in the world.

Miguel Duhamel isn't he a race bike driver? I have a signed poster of Mario Duhamel, he race on Suzuki at the Canadian Superbike Championship. I'm not a race connaisseur. French can sound German specialy people from the Montreal region. The prononciation of the *R* could make it. About the snow, the way your speaking of it, I'm sure that you have much more than here. I have to go 50 miles up north to be able to ski and it's border line. If you can enjoy playing in snow, you'll have fun all the winter time and at spring time it's gonna be the very special feeling of the first ride. P.S. I love humour, fine humour.But in English I'm offen on brakes cause I'm not alway sure to have the right words or give them the right sense. (Dictionnary don't check phrases sense.)

I turn by slighty, very slightly lifting the ski opposite of the turn at the same time I angle them in. Maybe that's wrong? The horn is a great idea!

If it's work your right. But are you sure that's the oposite ski, meaning that turning right you lift the left ski?

I haven't tried it Yves, but I think you've found my problem. I kept trying to bow the skis in and either couldn't, or didn't get the effect I wanted. Keeping the knees together makes perfect sense.

By keeping you knees together, you have a good stability and just by widen less or more the back end of your skis you have a good control of you speed. This is a basic tech. There should be others, but most people use it in country skiing. I don't have any knowledge on telemark technic. Maybe it's the one Franc use. At MODERATE speed you can use a skating style or figure. You lift one ski, turn it in the desired direction, put it down with all you weight on it, bring the other one beside, then get your weight on both. On skis, it's always weight transfer.

(ack...ok...equilibrium has been re-established)

huh? (fancy meeting you here)

tried XC Skate skiing yesterday up at Eldora... oh my aching body! it truly was a lesson in muscle groups as well as humility! After a very steep 30 minute learning curve, I was beyond embarassment and had a blast. It's been a long time since something has so completely worn me out but I was fairly worthless by 7pm!

This is beyond the cross country skiing on Mt. Shasta that I've done. If Stace' says it's X-Treme it's gotta be.

(or it's gotta be her first time!!!!)

What kind of gear did you use?

Ficsher skate skis and bright yellow and red boots... some guy on the trail was ooohing and ahhhing over the equipment, evidently we're talking $350 for boots and $400 for skis... wish I woulda known the difference! It was demo day so we rented for free, trail passes for free... falling down was free too!

That's good. Falling down can sometimes cost you.

glad to know you're still pushing the bod to the limits, Stace!

Yeee Haaa!

Wow, Bodie Miller didn't bode too well in the last Olympics. But it was fun to watch it all.