(Alexander) but in daily life, feminism means what people put into it. Yep, in fact I�ve always thought that Marcia is a feminist and I still do (hee hee) (Marcia) Individuals are responsible for their lives I do not think that individuals are fully responsible for their lives because we all are products of our cultures, upbringing and even direct ideologic manipulation. We are deeply indoctrinated and it takes a lot of intellectual energy and sometimes a lot of pain to be able to see how and why, and what are its causes in ourselves. (Alexander) I cannot see how we will develop our societies if all we do is alienating each other. Bingo! About male-bashing.....many feminists are understandably deeply bitter because or the terrible things that they have experienced because of their sex, or the terrible things that we all know are happening to millions of women in the world because they�re women, not people with human rights. I think most of active feminists go through that bitterness first, you just can�t open your eyes to facts without first reacting emotionally. It can take some blood, sweat, tears and braincells to realize that men really are victims of the same tradition and that individual men are not responsible for it! You just have to get over your bitterness to be able to do something positive about things.

Thank you!

I should have been more explicit... Elena, thanks for pointing out "that individual men are not responsible for it!"

You�re welcome, dear!

Thank you Elena for not tarring the whole of masculinity with the same brush. Me? A feminist???!!! I never thought of me in that way...hmmmm...

But you are! Great, isn�t it?! Btw I�m not twice your size........you know very well that I�m definitely shorter than 6�1.....

Yes, m'dear...I do know exactly what you look like and you are looking at me right this moment, as a matter of fact (or vice versa!) Compared with the others in your picture - you are of average height, indeed!

(Debra)when we were forming the Green Party. When was this? I think I haven�t heard of a Green party in the US. How successful has it been? There is a Green Party in Finland too and I think they have done ok.....but not well enough yet. They have 11 mandates in the Parliament (100 members in all) and nine of them are women. The minister of environment is also a female Green Party member and the leader of the party. (Alexander)Feminism does not equal gender suprematism, but many - male and female - interpret it this way, feeling attacked or legitimized to attack. Elena, how did Finland manage to get over this obstacle? I�m not saying that we managed to get over it. You just need to look at the tabloid papers to see that men feel more or less threatened and keep trying to put women down, especially strong female politicians. However it�s pretty mild stuff. Everyday life and attitudes are one thing and the official equality policy is another but I don�t think they are too far from each other really. I think it�s the question of culture, history, tradition and religion. Strong and decisive women are traditionally respected in the Nordic countries. Equality also seems to be easier in Lutheran countries than Catholic. Also, Finns love efficiency above anything else and as a small nation of 5 million people we need all the labour force we can get! Half of it is women nowadays and things like children�s daycare have been arranged efficiently. Housewives practically don�t exist.

But tango dancers do! I wish you could teach me tango! I wish I had more Finnish tango records - perhaps some Eino Gr�n, no? Perhaps that would help me see deeper through the inter-gender jungle... Much of what you said is very agreeable to me. And perhaps analysis would show men are victims, too - look at how in the Western world they are killed of by stress-related heart-conditions... Our parents prepare our men for what they think men should be, much as our parents do with girls. Perhaps both are not acting or living in certain ways because of their own free will, but social programming. Perhaps I should stop here, because there are enough people who would roast me for this heresy...

(Alexander) I wish you could teach me tango! Hmmmm......online lessons perhaps??

hey, there's a place locally that teaches ballroom dancing. you know, if you could set up your lear jet we could get you in a class!

Tango lessons...what is next? *lol* After a ill-spent youth taking "couth" lessons to make me into a debutante (during which I learnt to tango and everything else socially acceptable), I declined the debut and ball...I have not tangoed since. Let us know how the European connection is doing with it in the far north. I am much intrigued. Shall I perhaps create (or you do it, Alexander!) a new topic for you?

Thank you, Marcia, but look at the Finland topic in Travel... Wolf, the jet's grounded for maintenance - for at least as it takes to pay last times bill! Elena - any which way you can! Maybe we discover a correlation between the Finnish's love for tango and gender equality? What role does male alcohol consumption play (or sausage, coffee and cider consumption in ole Dance Barns)? I think the whole matter is nothing to be so tight and hard about, but something fun and alive. Perhaps that is why I don't understand all the problems many folks have... nor do I understand my own too well, but then - I just a guy.

(OT: Alexander, Reijo Taipale is my favourite tango singer....I�m sure you know Olavi Virta too??) Maybe we discover a correlation between the Finnish's love for tango and gender equality? Ha ha....that can be difficult. Tango is actually our only escape from the straightjacket of equality!;-) You can�t dance it properly without letting the male take the lead....or you can but that�s another story. That�s why I have to disappoint you, terrible truth is that I really can�t dance it well and whenever somebody asks me to dance it I have to refuse, I don�t want to trample on peoples� toes. Maybe Marcia could teach us both?

Aw, Elena, is this why you vanished from the ball (at the Finland topic in Travel)? That you cannot dance? I would have never noticed! Nor would have anybody there, because that is why the ladies have coffee and the men cider, right? Haven't heard Reijo Taipale yet, but Olavi Virta (have mentioned to you the German compilation with Finnish tango before?). Marcia, dancing teacher - Elena, I bet she could (and would, too!) - but the proper Finnish tango? I doubt that's en vogue in Hawaii... *************************** See, I guess the key is perhaps the fact that dancing together is not a powerplay, but based on a mutual agreement to achieve a common goal - here: enjoy each other. So, who cares who leads, if it is just a dance? Maybe there is something desireable in this - who cares who does what, as long as everybody is happy and the job gets done? Well, I realise this is what got us into the inequality mess we're in first place (shared labour/specialisation), but maybe we can use it also to turn it back... Focusing not on the labour-aspect, but the hedonistic side about it: "You're not happy? What would make you happy? I can ask the band to play a different tune. Want a sausage? Some coffee?", instead of "You're dancing with me now, so DANCE, dammit! And SMILE, fer Pete's sake!"

Alexander is right, Elena, Dance with him and enjoy. The Hula and tango do not mix all that well, and you would not like a half-naked man stomping on your foot, would you?

that depends, hmmmm........

Tango dancing, is it? I know that Tango is the Finnish national dance... but don't know why. Is it more like ballroom tango or like Argentinian Tango? Alexander, hope you enjoy this (I hope it works):

Try again...(I promise to stop if it doesn't work)

Well I would like a half-naked man, not sure about the stomping. Depends! ;-) (Alexander) is this why you vanished from the ball Oh, it wasn�t me who vanished, YOU did, don�t you remember? But I�m ready to put the past behind us and look forward in life. dancing together is not a powerplay Kidding, I was kidding.......actually I can think of some situations where I have nothing against it that the man takes the lead. But the very best is when we can take the lead in turns with love and respect, without clinging to some fuc**** old roles that we didn�t create.

Wow Gi, I had no idea that you dance that well!!! But who is that beautiful man?

I don't...His name is Jorge and hers is Nelida. They are Argentinian professional tango dancers.

Back On Topic for a moment...there are most disturbing events taking place in some Bioregions. Read it and weap for the Children involved and for all of us who allow this to continue without expressing outrage. Please read this: (from Nan in Cultures 27) http://worldnews.about.com/library/weekly/aa072699.htm

that is horrid! (not the tango, the article)

Yes..it most surely is. And, worse than that, I have no idea how to do anything about stopping it.

Oh, and thank you, Wolf, for defending this country. With people like you on guard, perhaps this fate will not be that of our children.

Well, since practically all pedophiles are men, should the charities only send women to work with children in catastrophe areas?

Elena, that is too obvious. Alas, we need leaders at the top who are women who can enforce this. Look at our Commander in Chief...does not speak well for the safely of children anywhere. Run for high office, Dear. I'll go out and raise money and beat drums for you.

Just recently visited a kindergarten where half of the staff were male. That�s not yet very usual in Finland (but slowly increasing) and I saw that the parents of the kids felt a bit uneasy about it, like the fact that these big guys dress and undress babies and all the normal thing in baby care. When I talked about this to people I found very strong prejudices, as if any man who wants to work with small children was a pedophile automatically! Normal men have become suspects too.

unfortunately, most pedophiles don't run around acting like they are. one way to curb them enlisting into charities is to run police checks. or to have a chaperone. no one person is allowed with the kids, at least two people all the time. of course, i can see the problem of both the individuals being a problem to the children. also, teaching the children what to report. you know? i know there are a ton of false reports but do it anyway!

The image of those big guys undressing the little kids makes me feel really bad way deep down where I live.

This is a terrible thing to talk about because the subject matter is one of the worst things that people do to each other, but that of course is no reason for not to talk about it. Here they�re testing in prisons with a drug that reduces the male sexual desire and ability considerably, chemical castration they call it. It has been tested in the US too with pretty optimistic results. Surprisingly, some pedophiles are actually willing to go through such a process because they sincerely want to get rid of their �problem� that�s ruining their own life too, as well as their victims�. One of them was interviewed in a paper saying that he sees it as his only chance in life because without it he�ll inevitably return to crime as soon as he gets out. ********* Back to Tango: Gi, I remember now that it actually was the theme of your exhibition? Do I remember correctly?.....I can�t see if the pic you posted actually is a painting, not a photo.

Did you people know that many pedophiles have a personal history of childabuse? Much as most drug addicts and prostitutes were abused as children, too... Incorporating the abuse and perpetually either repeating it on themselves (if in different form, but still), or pathologically reenact it on others. Here, you find a problem that defies free will, as the assaults create a programming the individual can hardly identify. All they know is they are "driven". And often, they suffer because of this tremendously.

Is intensive therapy, as in psychiatric councelling, the answer?

And, Yes, I am aware of the guilt and sel-loathing that goes with these afflictions.

yes, and many children who suffer child abuse don't grow up to be child abusers themselves. the chain HAS to stop somewhere and it's a CHOICE. (sorry, but this is a touchy subject with me and this is probably not the place to discuss it).

(Alexander) often, they suffer because of this tremendously. Often yes and often no but whatever the case, I�m not willing to feel much sympathy for them, in spite of the obvious fact that their problem is usually caused by similar experiences as kids. I hear that pedophilia is very difficult to cure with therapy, often simply because the criminal is unable to realize that he has done anything wrong.

this is a touchy subject with me Wolf, I feel for you. And I think this is a more or less touchy subject for everybody, for various reasons. But like you said earlier, we can try to stop it by being aware of it, talking to children about it and simply enforcing a strickt 0-tolerance attitude.....also in products like movies and advertising. I think the active public discussion and awareness about this started surprisingly late, in Finland it happened in the beginning of �80s. Before that it was pretty difficult to make anybody believe that things like this really happen and the police wasn�t too interested. Now the attitude is different and any reports are taken very seriously.

The truth is, when you push majority (i.e., coming of age) later in years, and show progressively younger children as desirable sexual objects in publicity campaigns ecc, you are going to have more and more trouble. Remember also that it was usual for classical (ancient) greeks to love young boys who had not grown a beard yet. I am not defending paedophilia, which disgusts me as it does you. Yes, Elena, Tango was indeed an exhibition topic, and the pic I posted is of one of my paintings. Good of you to remember! :-)

the pic I posted is of one of my paintings I see that you were too modest to mention this yourself first! And as an answer to your question earlier about Finnish tango (this really suits fine the Bioregions topic doesn�t it?!? :-), ordinary people dance it everywhere, for example tonight in the local shabby dance restaurants in this smalltown. The most popular singers in Finland are usually tango singers, and their career often starts at a huge tango festival in a city called Seinajoki where people do the tango round the clock for days. For many people this is a real must yearly. You should come and see, you�d certainly paint a little different sort of tango paintings after that!

Haven't been here for a week and there wer 96 messages! Interesting discussion: feminism, tango, pedophiles, and Japanese movie monsters. ;-) Seriously though I would have a few comments on the current perception of feminism and how much of it relates to one's age. Having watched the trailblazers in action in my formative years, I have nothing but respect for what they accomplished in changing our society. Galls me when I see younger women boast that they are not feminists and want to have nothing to do with them. Most don't recognize that they wouldn't be in the positions they have without those women. As always, they haven't a clue as to he way it was before. Sad. I shall try to stay more current and get a book on Learning to Tango. :-)

you know, i'd love to take tango lessons but unfortunately, my husband has two left feet and no sense of rhythm...haha! i don't think it'd look the same doing it by myself!!!!

Sorrow not! Look where my tango lessons got me. No one does it here unless a travelling dance troupe is making the rounds of the community concert series!

younger women boast that they are not feminists and want to have nothing to do with them Well I�m very happy if there�s no need for young women to be feminists!! That�s what we have aimed at, right? I guess women earn as much as men in the US these days, for example... When I got my interested in feminism at about 16 I naturally wanted to talk about it with my best girlfriend but she didn�t want to hear a word. She didn�t want to �start hating men� or how was it! After that I�ve always interpreted womens� negative attitude to feminism simply as unwillingness to open their eyes to unpleasant facts. And that leads to not being able to do anything about them. Well, keeping our eyes, ears AND mouth shut suits the patriarchy fine!!!

She didn�t want to �start hating men� Where did being a feminist or being sympathetic to feminist issues equate to hating men? That is the negative perception of what the 1960s-70s feminists were all about. And all they did was burn their bras and were uglier than sin, among other negative stereotypes. I guess women earn as much as men in the US these days, for example... No they do not.

I agree that without the angry radical feminists of 20 to 30 years ago, and without the 1900s feminists, we would not be where we are now...taking it easier and being "more reasonable" in our protests.

I should still stay out of this conversation, shouldn't I?

Oh yes, my dear, if you value your life, or unless you are extraordinarily good at tango...I'd run for the hills, if I were you, and I am right behind you!

That's what I thought.

I'm bringing sandwiches and binoculars and a blanket - we can watch from a safe distance.

I'm bringing sandwiches and binoculars and a blanket Just what are you two up to?? I should still stay out of this conversation, shouldn't I? William, please just bravely put in your two cents!! :-)

Wer - ole buddy, surely you will not leave me behind, to fall victim to these feminist, post-feminist, anti-feminist and non-feminist predators? I see my bones bleaching peacefully on a meadow in a tiny valley, with a little peaceful creek flowing through... One already has my leg! Leggo! Willya! Arrgh.....

*impatient frown* All right, my turn to say I�m outa here.

Oh.

We just wanted to get a better vantage point without getting anything on us. It appeared to be a long one, so I can with provisions...not anything to create a topic about...and now I see we might have to provide our own entertainment since everyone took their toys and went away.

And all because I asked if I should still stay out of the conversation... I guess I shouldn't have asked...

I am glad you did....

well, this was the wrong place for that topic anyway. glad you stayed, wer!

I don't think it was a negative discussion for the topic (you know how we wander, Wolf...) and of course I stayed, I do like to watch, dontcha know! It is just sometimes I shouldn't interrupt, and I still haven't figured that timing out...

....me, too....*smile*

Oh gosh, Wer, next time don't just let me stand in a discussion like this alone as sole representative of the male species. This subject especially needs many opinions and must bring agreements based on a large demographic base. Or whatever. Also, I do like to hear your opinion. I may not have said so explicitly, but I really do (but I'll save everybody my "Wer, don't just post so short responses!"-whine; I guess I'll save that for a special occassion)! Plus I don't do so well as typical male speciman. As soon as they find out I have a curious sense of humour AND can't dance, pouf! they're gone! .={

I have that same problem, Alexander...

...big feet? But then, YOU draw crowds... Must be the earrings...

You are both wrong in your accessment of your abilities, but I shall keep that little secret safe...Poor Alexander - left twisting in the wind...hardly seems fair.

Thanks for the sympathy. Sweet dreams, everybody! Good night, Johnboy! (21:42 h, and tired like whatever)

big feet...yep...wear American size 13...g'night!

size 13? i didn't mean negative conversation, just that it needed to be explored with more depth in order to appreciate all the opinions and experience. our topic tangents don't really facilitate that. (IMMHO *grin*) what i'm saying is, social typecasts should have a conference of it's very own (i'm not a volunteer for hosting priviledges). well, that's coming out all wrong. does anybody know what i'm trying to spit out? i'm just saying feminism, suffrage, bias, bigotry, and all those social issues should have i 's own topic. and i'm not saying social issues don't have a bearing on our bioregion either. and i'm not saying that bigotry, bias, suffrage, and feminism are all looked at with the same intensity or even related to each other. just that all of those were the best examples i could come up with for social issues. got that? any questions? (oh, i shouldn't have asked) *smile and hugs to all*

Yup - belongs in Cultures or somewhere else - not in a Conference I really wanted to be about things Geo. Thanks for pointing this out. It happens all over the place where friends meet in Spring...but it is not of interest to those seeking information the topic purportedly delivers.

yep, Wolf, 13...that's why I hate so much putting them in my mouth... and why I look for "environmentally conscious" hiking boots (said to get back near topic...)

Let's hear it for those hiking boots. I hope they have thick soles - you would not like them melting on the fresh hot lava...

Feminism is not a social issue only. Women�s situation on this planet is a crucial question in many bioregions.....like I said way back, many environmental catastrophes are actually caused by inequality between people. You just can�t separate social issues/social structures and environmental issues from each other, if you do that you won�t understand things as a whole.

Elena, this is true, and at the deepest elemental level, all of The Spring's topics are related and thus be dumped into the same conference. There is nothing we do that is not somehow affecting Earth, other people and raw materials available. But, that would make libraries harder to browse, and The Spring almost impossible to navigate. There must be a place for discussing the living as opposed to the inert. I will open a topic for you wherever you'd like it. Just let me know. (Bioregions I thought w s how to protect the one in which you live - as we did originally...)

I will open a topic for you Um......I feel like needing to point out that it was not me who mentioned feminism first in this topic!!! Bioregions I thought was how to protect the one in which you live Exactly. It�s just that social problems (and yes, many other things too) clearly correlate with it! What I�m saying is, if we really want to understand what�s going on in our bioregions, and especially WHY it�s happening and what to do about it, we shouldn�t discuss it out of context, it�s pointless.

Marcia, I don�t want to argue with you, it�s clear that we see things a bit differently here. I hope you can go on with your discussion now and stop discussing what is the right thing to discuss! :-)

Hello? Excuse me? Could we find a middle way somewhere here? My personal problems with discussing stuff all over the place is not a kweftion of propriety, but that I find stuff hard to find again... Know what I mean? E.g. I care a lot about films, real reel-to-reel stuff. We discussed it in Record Collecting, but will I remember that later? When I try to find something somebody said on topic that I want to go back to? Or see what I said then? Of course it all should have belonged into the Film topic in Collecting first place; it just happened to have started somewhere else. Nobody involved complained about the suggestion to continue it in "Film", and I'm sure they'll be there, too.- Back to the issue here - I think it's great this exchange of ideas started up. I would love to see it continue. Perhaps there's new tricks for an old dog, so to speak. So, let's go on - but does it have to be here? Elena, please take a look at this, and see if you feel comfortable there: http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/read/cultures/28 .

Thank you, My dear Alexander for setting this up and posting the link. I shall go to film...I already posted there once...and planning to return immediately.

My bioregion is being changed as I sit here. A group of Samoans (very large and strong people) have descended on our Areca Palms framing the perimeter of the yard and are cutting the tall ones out. They must have cut 100 of them so far and are hauling them away - a huge job for us, but easy for them. Now, my shaded deep red plumeria can bloom again and I can make leis as I sit on the floor with my flower-collecting bucket in front of me and my lei needle strung with thin twine. There is something very oul satifying in making leis for others who will be delighted to have them around their necks adding a special frangrance which to me means Hawaii.

Well! You have offered leis to several of us in Drool, Marcia, but I didn't know you made them yourself! :-)

Selecting and stringing the flowers is a very important part of lei-giving. Since it is a token of love and affection (Aloha!), it is appropriate to make one from start to finished garland, if one has the time and flowers available. It is a pleasure to do so!

A group of Samoans (very large and strong people) have descended on our Areca Palms framing the perimeter of the yard and are cutting the tall ones out Please send your Samoans over to my house. My neighborhood organization sent some thugs over in the middle of the night and planted another tree in front of my house (on the parkway, which technically doesn't belong to me) that is effectively blocking what few rays of sun my frontyard needs. It is truly a boring tree, a poplar, whose only attribute (to them) is that it grows quickly. It has neither spring interest (flowers) nor fall interest (color change). I tell all dogowners to let their pets make ull use of it, but it survives...

My Dear...there are ways to kill poplar trees. Round up all the ice you can muster - a bucket full if you have it. Sneak out in the nmight and heap it around the root base. The sudden chill will shock the tree to death and by morning all evidence will have disappeared!

Ice? Do you forget where I live? Maybe ice will scare a tree to death in Hawaii, but not here! ;-D Actually, the last year, I poured a cannister of this root stuff that you are supposed to pour down your toilets to kill tree roots which invade our sewer pipes. When I noticed that the granules were not dissolving, I thought some dog might come around and eat some of it, so I removed it all. The tree's root ball is protected by some kind of tarp too! This winter I'm covering the base with a bag of sidewalk salt! Also, someone suggested a copper nail, but I was never able to find that.

Yes...yes, I know...it does work here for tropical trees...! I am pretty sure a quart of Roundup in a liquid form would not help it very much. Copper nails are a traditional method - just try finding one, though! House Gorilla says roundup would not do it - to use the granular poison and cover it with dirt..may take a little work on your part, and you might be seen. Ask at your local nursery. They have all sorts of that stuff to get rid of nusiance plants. Sorry I cannot come up with a better idea... unting on the web will teach you how to build a nuclear device - perhaps it will tell you how to poison a tree.

I understand and empathize with your problem, Karen, still it shocks me to think of killing a tree...

yeah, but this is a runty little one...not a tree-tree!

Checked out a product called "Stump Out" at the nursery. Unfortunately, you have to drill a hole into the tree to apply. Too obvious a method. The people at the nurseries don't like to tell you how to kill a tree either. Goes against their nature too. It's growing by leaps and bounds. argh!!

I suppose a chain saw is out of the question? How about a drive-by shooting ala Mafia with machine guns? Hmmmm...don't know..checking the net.

You could girdle it....or make a very snug wire around it twisted until it strangles the tree...

that's what i was gonna ask, why don't you chop it down?

...just guessing until Karen can get her to answer for herself, but since the city of Chicago or the county beautification whatever put it there and it is on the median strip between the sidewalk and the street, technically she does not own it...

HAWAII VOLCANOES NATIONAL PARK World Heritage Site/International Biosphere Reserve What does Hawai'i Volcanoes National Park have in common with Germany's Aachen Cathedral, Frances' Palace and Park of Versailles, Australia's Great Barrier Reef, Equador's Galapagos Islands, China's Great Wall and Tanzania's Serengeti National Park? The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization recognized their superlative values and designated them World Heritage sites. Hawai'i Volcanoes' vast lava fields, lush tropical rain forest, and alpine summits offer glimpses into the continuing process of creating land and life. On this volcanic landscape, complex and unique ecosystems and a distinct human culture have evolved. As both a World Heritage Site and International Biosphere Reserve, the park has achieved international recognition for its outstanding values. Learn more about World Heritage Sites in the United States.

From http://www.cr.nps.gov/worldheritage/sites.htm World Heritage Sites in the U.S.

Interesting that most such sites in the US are natural places while most in Europe (if I'm not wrong here) are man-made.

I shall put up the European ones...(I did not know that!)

This is the web page which lists the European and North American sites http://www.unesco.org/whc/nwhc/pages/sites/maplist/euramer.htm This is the World Heritage site for kids http://www.unesco.org/whc/nwhc/pages/kids/main.htm

Thank you for the url. You will notice that Portugal has a few classified sites :-)

I did, Indeed! =)

Borrowed from Travel/Namibia and posted by Maggie originally: --Namibia's Quiver Tree Forest-- If you are travelling in the south of Namibia, be sure to stop and see this natural forest of more than 300 trees growing in an arid area where little else will grow. The forest was declared a national museum in June 1955. These trees (actually not a tree, but an aloe plant - Aloe Dichotoma) are one of the most interesting and characteristic plants of the very hot and dry parts of Namibia. The plant is called a Quiver Tree, because some Bushmen and Hottentot tribes used the tough pliable bark and branches to make quivers for their arrows. Read more about Namibia's Quiver Tree Forest at, http://www.africa.com/namibia/ttd_sa_qt.phtml From ULUNDI http://www.africa.com

Thanks Marcia. Couldn't figure out where else to put it!

*Hugs* Maggie. This is a difficult topic for which to find things which "fit" The quiver tree story is perfect!