I'm all for a fix, but not throwing $$ willy nilly at it...at my expense. I've paid enough.

Interesting conversations you are having over here... I know very little of your US politics... but will comment from my own domestic Ozzie situation... Not wishing to be doom and gloom, but I still think its gunna get a lot worse before it gets better...We've been building a house of cards of years... All we've heard about was the housing industry for years... How fast it was growing...the government kept giving incentives for building homes, propping up the industry...if the building industry was booming, then that was treated as their major economic GDP indicator that the economy is doing ok...But I kept screaming, no no no!! Its a bubble that will burst... I foresaw things coming unravelled 3 or 4 years ago and started putting our 'house' in order.... You could see it at the shopping centre...everyone spending...prices rising/less discounting, therefore obviously more consumer demand. From friends & complete strangers I repeatedly heard things like: "oh I only need to pay the interest on my mortgage - you DONT bother with the principle!! You're an idiot if you pay back the actual debt!!" huh?? The psyche of the general masses has changed...over generations our values have changed...certainly there's less responsibility in people than past generations, with the government having to always accept the blame and fix it.....but it's not just governments... Yes, they allowed it to happen...but it wasnt hard to figure out..or foresee... In fact I think the politicians are so disconnected from the general public they were miles behind the eight ball. Any mother who shops for her family on a weekly basis could tell the government the inflation rate certainly was NOT cruising at 2% !! So by the time the government tries to swing into action, the horse has already bolted... As echoed before, Liberal/Labour ( our Oz parites) has spent so much time, energy & money disagreeing with each other and mud slinging at each other, they have lost the ability to govern...if they ever actually had any in the first place!! Yes, they have to fix it now...yes, they need more fingers on the pulse to foresee things perhaps...but this has been happening for a lot longer than anyone cares to admit...they can put a band aid on it for the time being...but then everyone needs to undergo a huge mind-shift in the way they live their lives...or it will just keep on happenng... My other theory is: things happen for a reason....and in the world of ying vs yang...somebody out there is profiting by this...whether its money, power or religion...someone will do well out of this crisis...and I do wonder if this wasnt an accident... Getting off soapbox nooow....aaahhh....such a long way to faallll!!!

(LindaMc)You could see it at the shopping centre...everyone spending...prices rising/less discounting, therefore obviously more consumer demand. A very good thing if not done mostly or only on credit for people truly unable to afford it. Thanks, Mari. That TF column was interesting. (LindaMc) somebody out there is profiting by this...whether its money, power or religion...someone will do well out of this crisis. Just said that to someone today buying a house that's one step from foreclosure. He looked at it as he's saving someone from the final credit death knell of foreclosure while he gets a house at a really good price. A kind of twisted win-win situation, if you work real hard to accept that. ;-) Hopefully keeps away any guilt for some.

(LindaMc) yes, they need more fingers on the pulse to foresee things perhaps...but this has been happening for a lot longer than anyone cares to admit. Warren Buffett pegged all this about 5 yrs ago from what I read.

Dorine: A very good thing if not done mostly or only on credit for people truly unable to afford it. Oh heck no...all on credit!! A friend of mine told me they were over spending by $1000 per month, using credit, got another credit card to pay the first credit card...when I asked her how they would cope with this, well, she said, we have the capital in our house to back us up...!!?? and I don't think she's alone in thinking that...

The tag to this story is my friend got herself in credit card for over $50,000...then extended the mortgage to pay the cards out...BUT hasnt cut the cards up yet...and so the cycle continues!!!

Yeah, a different story, though the actual spending part is still the good part of it.

Oh, my... you betcha! ;-) LOL! I can't imagine ever becoming friends with Palin, but she did what she had to do last night. My protest vote still stands.

Damn, had a feeling I should've taken a chance on Wachovia (WB) 3 days ago when it was a buck or so. :-((((

(Moon) Oh, my... you betcha! ;-) LOL! I can't imagine ever becoming friends with Palin, but she did what she had to do last night. My protest vote still stands. LOL...Doggone it, Moon. Ya kno' I would more likely be 'Miss Winky-Dinky's' friend than vote for her or the current train wreck of the McCain campaign. She didn't make any great flubs and I'm sure she made the Joe-six-packs out there proud. However, I don't want Joe-six-pack for my president or vice president! The folksy verbage made me cringe. Does she really talk like that or does she just 'want to be my friend'- I prefer mr. Rogers;-)))

(Peggy) She didn't make any great flubs She apparently hasn't a clue what an "Achilles heel" is though. Probably thought it was one of those mainstream media gotchas! God, was I turned off by her delivery. If she winked one more time or rolled her eyes I thought I was going to barf. Biden was in the worst possible position because if he went after her or was patronizing everyone would be bitching about it today. But I think he came off as extremely knowledgable, whereas she was ulta content-lite. And back to our regularly scheduled program: (Moon) And it was unforgivable for Pelosi to present the bill with that partisan speech I can't believe how you've fallen into lockstep with the Republican spin on this, having heard Pelosi's words. According to credible members and the parts that have been shown on TV, there's absolutely nothing outrageous in what she said. It was like minus 8 on the Richter scale of rhetoric. Pelosi is being made the scapegoat and that doesn't sit well with me. (Moon) Possible Change of Heart. Rezko talked with prosecutors, Chicago Tribune article: The real target is our governor (whose name I won't even try to spell). So don't get your hopes up, Moon. They're positively salivating for the current governor to be the previous governor's cellmate in prison. (George Ryan is currently serving a sentence). That would be the third governor to serve time in my lifetime. ;-) (Karen)It always boils down to corporate greed, which seems to flourish during Republican Administrations (Peg) but I disagree that it flourishes only during Republican administrations. It has existed during other administrations, but it flourishes under Republican ones because, by definition, they�re laissez-fairing and deregulating the heck out of everything. Should the oversight and regulatory structure change with an evolving financial world? Absolutely. It must. But voluntary self-regulation by the SEC could only be a Republican invention or should I say smokescreen? The Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999 (Gramm�s bill) you�ll say was signed by Clinton. True, but it was veto-proof in the Republican-controlled Congress. I guess he could�ve just left it on his desk, unsigned, for the requisite number of days... (Peg) As an example of greed during a Democratic administration, look no further than Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson (both Democrats) the CEO's of Fannie Mae from 1991-98 (Johnson) and 1999-2004 (Raines). Excellent examples. They should be drawn and quartered. (Peg) The problem wasn't the CRA, it was broadening of it that caused problems, Yes and no. The broadening in and of itself would not necessarily have landed us in this situation. There�s no way to predict that another administration (not like a Bush one) wouldn�t have nipped it in the bud before it could overwhelm the financial foundation of the country. (Peg) the rewrite of the CRA rules in 1995 made it so that banks had quotas for the level of diversity in their loan portfolios. The quotas included quotas on income level of people receiving the loans. If a bank wanted to expand or merge, it needed a good CRA rating, so banks began making riskier loans to meet those quotas. Not all banks were interested in expanding or merging, of course, so not all banks made risky loans. You could argue, of course, that it was greed that made banks want to expand. Realistically speaking, there will always be greed and abuse and bankers who think the way to do things is to falsify records or mislead people about their loans. I seem to remember being taught about the 3 or 4 Cs of lending. That must be part of an older, out-of-date curriculum. From what I can see, however, most don�t abuse the system. Responsible bankers kept close control over their credit to riskier applicants. BTW, I like stainless steel appliances. Always have. We had a stainless built-in oven and cooktop in our 1956 era house. My mother was way ahead of the trend curve. ;-)

BTW, I got rather irate when Sarah appropriated the phrase "never again" which has been the slogan for the Holocaust for as long as I can remember. But then again, she "loves" Israel. *rolling my eyes and winking*

Karen, I've had a problem with Pelosi since she sideswiped Hillary for a new kid with big ambitions and no experience. The point with Rezko and Obama does not sit well with me. Obama's free media pass does not sit well with me. He has always gotten a free ride. Who on Earth is editor of the Harvard Law Review and does not write a single article? I don't trust him, period. I preferred Sarah at the Convention. I am not a fan of "folksie" as you know by now by my previous high flung opinions. I thought the VP debate was even. And when she started with her betcha, Joe six pack, wink thing... well I hated it. My vote is still a protest vote. This is Obama's election to lose. I have never seen anything like this. Even the emails I get from MoveOn.org have exceeded in their "Big Brother" pro-Obama stance. A very scary thought. :-(

(Moon) My vote is still a protest vote. Yes, I have understood that fact. But I wouldn't be trying to justify with support of anything McCain-Palin. Not necessary. Letterman went nuts last night on McCain and Palin. Brian Williams was a guest and he characterized it as using Palin as a pi�ata. ;-) Before he came out, he had a bunch of video bits, where they restrung together words from the debates so that she would say things like "You betcha, I'm not qualified for this job." It was hysterical. Obviously, Dave is doing this because McCain bowed out at the last minute and then was found to be lying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZsO7dZ__iw Dave made a blatently sexist comment during the Brian Williams segment. He said somethng about how she'd be worrying about her hair during a crisis and you could hear the audience's unease.

Yet another very funny SNL political sketch! This time on the Biden/Palin debate. With Queen Latifah. http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/vp-debate-open-palin-biden/727421/

An interesting tidbit from Daily Kos.... I was reminded of this gem reported by John Dickerson at Slate on August 25: The McCain campaign was working hard to drive a wedge in the Clinton coalition. Since Obama picked Joe Biden as his running mate, the McCain team has released two Hillary-themed ads. One claims Clinton was passed over for the No. 2 spot because she spoke the truth about Obama. In the second, a former Clinton supporter says she's voting for McCain. "If we get them we win; if we don't we lose," says a top McCain aide of the Clinton supporters. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And what to look forward to per WaPo: McCain Plans Fiercer Strategy Against Obama ("You're going to learn a lot" in next week's debate, Sen. John McCain promised supporters in Pueblo, Colo. [Ed. note - He says, channeling Moon ;-)] ) By Michael D. Shear Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, October 4, 2008; Page A01 Sen. John McCain and his Republican allies are readying a newly aggressive assault on Sen. Barack Obama's character, believing that to win in November they must shift the conversation back to questions about the Democrat's judgment, honesty and personal associations, several top Republicans said. With just a month to go until Election Day, McCain's team has decided that its emphasis on the senator's biography as a war hero, experienced lawmaker and straight-talking maverick is insufficient to close a growing gap with Obama. The Arizonan's campaign is also eager to move the conversation away from the economy, an issue that strongly favors Obama and has helped him to a lead in many recent polls. "We're going to get a little tougher," a senior Republican operative said, indicating that a fresh batch of television ads is coming. "We've got to question this guy's associations. Very soon. There's no question that we have to change the subject here," said the operative, who was not authorized to discuss strategy and spoke on the condition of anonymity. [Cont'd here... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100303738.html?hpid=topnews ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And a snippet of commentary from Gail Collins, NYT..... "Palin is, in many ways, a genuine heir to the women�s liberation movement of the 1970s, which tried to make sure that future generations of American women would grow up feeling they had every right to compete with men for all the best rewards and adventures the world had to offer. She never seems to have had a single doubt that she could accomplish whatever she set her mind to. When she got involved in politics, she used the time-honored male route of cultivating powerful mentors, then pushing them out of the way at the first possible opportunity. When she was governor, she did what very few female politicians do, and ignored all the subsidiary issues in order to put all her bets on one big policy payoff in the form of a new state energy policy. Then, somehow, she concluded that her success in clawing her way to the top of Alaska�s modest political heap meant she was capable of running the United States. This entire election season has been a long-running saga about the rise of women in American politics. On Thursday, it all went sour. The people boosting Palin�s triumph were not celebrating because she demonstrated that she is qualified to be president if something ever happened to John McCain. They were cheering her success in covering up her lack of knowledge about the things she would have to deal with if she wound up running the country." http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/opinion/04collins.html

(Dorine) Yet another very funny SNL political sketch! This time on the Biden/Palin debate. With Queen Latifah. That was excellent, especially the talent segment. No matter what they said initially, I knew they'd be using Tina at every opportunity (save the weekend she was at the Emmys) up until the election. I even noticed they're using clips of her to promote the news show that will be in prime time, after The Office. They were cheering her success in covering up her lack of knowledge about the things she would have to deal with if she wound up running the country." Sort of like Latifah said. Unless she totally screwed up or embarassed herself, then you *must* declare the debate a tie.

Unless she totally screwed up or embarassed herself, then you *must* declare the debate a tie. Boy, talk about holding the bar low.

Exactly, expectations were so low for her. I like how Tina stated her ulterior motives for those who haven't figured them out, especially the "can I call you Joe" bit at the beginning and the Israel part.

I watched Letterman's Palin's bashing with a capital B. His remarks were repeatedly sexist. Is this all about McCain canceling and Palin not wanting to go on his show? He came off as a real AO. Making pints of her inexperience and not mentioning the junior Senator running for the #1 spot with NO experience, was so partisan, I could not believe it. I did not expect it. The SNL skit was funny. In the real debate, I wondered why Biden took the first question and was also the last to close? That is not supposed to happen. ("You're going to learn a lot" in next week's debate, Sen. John McCain promised supporters in Pueblo, Colo. [Ed. note - He says, channeling Moon ;-)] ) Dorine, too little too late? But I welcome it. (Karen), But I wouldn't be trying to justify with support of anything McCain-Palin. Not necessary. Point taken. Thank you!

This is yet another muck up by Acorn people. I've read of at least 5 other states having problems with very irregular voter registration applications. Guess they are hoping to overwhelm the system and keep it from being discovered. Lake County is the same place in IN that caused problems in the primary. Times of Northwest Indiana: County rejects large number of invalid voter registrations Lake County Republican Chairman John Curley wants a federal investigation into hundreds of voter registrations bearing fictitious signatures or the names of dead and underage people. "Fraudulent applications are the workings of ACORN groups operating from Milwaukee and Chicago who are getting out the vote for Obama. I'm Republican, but I want everyone who should vote to vote. But I want a clean election," Curley said at a Wednesday news conference. Lake County elections officials acknowledged they have found problems and had to reject a large portion of the 5,000 registration forms turned in recently by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, an activist group that conducted registration drives across the county this summer. An ACORN spokesperson couldn't be reached Wednesday for comment. Telephones to ACORN offices in Gary, Indianapolis, Chicago and Milwaukee were reported to be disconnected� http://nwi.com/articles/2008/10/02/news/lake_county/doc5399904569d23a75862574d600010e55

That's interesting. Not sure where I read it now as it was a week or so ago, but I read Rep party was sending out Get Out the Vote Registration applations to people and putting the incorrect address of the district to send it to which causes the registration to be delayed or not done at all if it's not passed on to the correct district. I don't know if that's how it works, but that's what I read.

I have to say that one thing that really rankled (sp?) me on debate night, was Sarah Palin was dragging her 5 month old out again under all those lights and noise at a late hour. Of course I should be used to it judging by all the mothers (mostly young ones) I see around town shopping til 10 or 11 at night with their real little ones in strollers.

What about parents that take their babies to loud action movies? As a lifelong Democrat, I always thought it was the Republicans who were messing with the vote count. In 2004 I worked from sunrise till the polls closed in a black precint in Miami to help out and make sure every vote counted. That precint had had a precedent in the 2000 election for turning away voters. This year I have witness things from the Democrats side that have left me in shock and has basically turned me Independent. ACORN, MoveOn.org and the DNC have overstepped democratic boundaries.

(Moon) What about parents that take their babies to loud action movies? The movies, period. The Democrats figured it worked for the Republicans.....

And why wouldn't the Democrats be corrupt, they chose Obama. They're taking after him. :-( You're right, the movies, period.

(Dorine) The Democrats figured it worked for the Republicans..... But they're nowhere near as good as Republicans at this game. I'm continually amazed at how much better their spin is and their tactics (and, yes, I do know the difference between a strategy and a tactic - LOL!)

(Karen) But they're nowhere near as good as Republicans at this game. Bingo! And then get knocked for their tactics by anyone and everyone while the other side does it and everyone buys it hook, line and sinker.

If you didn't watch all of SNL this weekend, you should watch this skit which was really good, especially the yuppie couple: http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/c-span-bailout/727521/ Also this article: Politics and Palin lure viewers to "SNL" Mon Oct 6, 2008 9:30am EDT By Paul J. Gough NEW YORK (Hollywood Reporter) - The politics-fueled ratings train of "Saturday Night Live" keeps rolling along this election season with Tina Fey's impersonations of Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin luring viewers. "SNL" averaged a 7.4 household rating/18 share in the metered market overnights, Nielsen Media Research said on Sunday afternoon. That's within a tenth of a rating point of its September 13 premiere, which itself was the highest-rated show since December 14, 2002, when Al Gore and Phish appeared. "SNL" is up 49 percent in the metered markets compared with the first four weeks of last season, as well as up 42 percent this past Saturday compared to episode No. 4 last season. As expected, Saturday's show was heavy on the politics, spoofing the recent debate between Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin and Democrat Joe Biden. For the third time this season, Tina Fey portrayed Palin. Cast member Jason Sudeikis was Biden, and surprise guest Queen Latifah sat in as moderator Gwen Ifill. Once again, Fey showed that she has cornered the market on Palin impersonations, and her insistence that the GOP ticket would be all "mavericky" gained wide traction on the Web where it could be seen in numerous video postings. Another funny moment that seemed to strike a chord with audiences was Fey (as Palin) thanking "third graders of Gladys Wood Elementary, who were so helpful to me in my debate prep." While the rest of the late-night shows have struggled to find their footing following the 2007/2008 writers strike, "SNL" has been on a roll ever since it took on Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and others at the end of last season. The show's success with political satire only got bigger and better in September, when "SNL" opened early with a special appearance by Fey as Palin. "Clearly, 'Saturday Night Live' and Tina Fey's spot-on creation of Sarah Palin is now a part of this election season," said ABC News political director David Chalian. "It does show a frame through which a lot of people see these candidates." Ifill, who drew controversy before the debate with reports she was writing a book about the rise of African American politicians including Barack Obama, did not escape the satire. Twice Latifah mentioned the book and the publication date, once Inauguration Day and the other Election Day, and said that it was available for preorder. Also on the firing line were Biden and Scranton, Pa., the beleaguered northeastern Pennslyvania city that has been invoked by Biden (who grew up there). "They did equal-opportunity bashing," said CNN political analyst Gloria Borger, noting that it wasn't just Palin who was the target of humor on "SNL." Reuters/Hollywood Reporter.

Congress opens hearings on financial meltdown By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, Associated Press Writer 2 minutes ago Days from becoming the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history, Lehman Brothers steered millions to departing executives even while pleading for a federal rescue, Congress was told Monday. As well, executives who feared for their bonuses in the company's last months were told not to worry, according to documents cited at a congressional hearing. One executive said he was embarrassed when employees suggested that Lehman executives forgo bonuses, and cracked: "I'm not sure what's in the water." The first hearing into what caused the nation's financial markets to collapse last month, precipitating a $700 billion bailout, opened with finger-pointing and glimpses into internal company documents from Lehman's chaotic last hours. Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said the giant investment bank was "a company in which there was no accountability for failure." Lehman's collapse set off a panic that within days had President Bush and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson asking Congress to pass the rescue plan for the financial sector. Richard S. Fuld Jr., chief executive officer of Lehman Brothers, declared to the committee "I take full responsibility for the decisions that I made and for the actions that I took." He defended his actions as "prudent and appropriate" based on information he had at the time. "I feel horrible about what happened," he said. Waxman questioned Fuld on whether it was true he took home some $480 million in compensation since 2000, and asked: "Is that fair?" Fuld took off his glasses, held them, and looked uncomfortable. He said his compensation was not quite that much. "We had a compensation committee that spent a tremendous amount of time making sure that the interests of the executives and the employees were aligned with shareholders," he said. Fuld said he took home over $300 million in those years � some $60 million in cash compensation. Waxman read excerpts from Lehman documents in which a recommendation that top management should forgo bonuses was apparently brushed aside. He also cited a Sept. 11 request to Lehman's compensation board that three executives leaving the company be given $20 million in "special payments." "In other words, even as Mr. Fuld was pleading with Secretary Paulson for a federal rescue, Lehman continued to squander millions on executive compensation," Waxman said before Fuld appeared as a witness. The government let Lehman go under Sept. 15, only to bail out insurance giant American International Group the next day, in a cascading series of financial shocks and failures that put Washington on track for the multibillion-dollar rescue starting the end of that week. Waxman described that plan as a life-support measure. "It may keep our economy from collapsing but it won't make it healthy again," he said. That sentiment echoed on Wall Street, where the Dow Jones industrials sank below 10,000 on Monday for the first time in four years. Investors fear the crisis will weigh down the global economy and the bailout won't work quickly to loosen credit markets. The rescue plan, now law, was so rushed that the usual congressional scrutiny is only coming now, after the fact. "Although it comes too late to help Lehman Brothers, the so-called bailout program will have to make wrenching choices, picking winners and losers from a shattered and fragile economic landscape," said Rep. Tom Davis of Virginia, the committee's senior Republican. Waxman said that in January, Fuld and his board were warned the company's "liquidity can disappear quite fast." Despite that warning, he said, "Mr. Fuld depleted Lehman's capital reserves by over $10 billion through year-end bonuses, stock buybacks, and dividend payments." Waxman quoted Fuld as saying in one document, "Don't worry" to the suggestion that executives go without bonuses. That suggestion came from Lehman's money management subsidiary, Neuberger Berman. Waxman quoted George H. Walker, President Bush's cousin and a Lehman executive who oversaw some Neuberger Berman employees, as responding with a dismissive tone to the idea of going without bonuses. "Sorry team," he wrote to the executive committee, according to Waxman. "I'm not sure what's in the water at 605 Third Avenue today.... I'm embarrassed and I apologize." Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., said: "I wonder how he sleeps at night." Fuld said in his statement that the company did everything it could to limits its risks and save itself. "In the end, despite all our efforts, we were overwhelmed, others were overwhelmed, and still other institutions would have been overwhelmed had the government not stepped in to save them," he said. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081006/ap_on_go_co/meltdown_lehman

I'm glad you posted that article, Karen. I read it and just couldn't get around to posting it. And in the meantime, at the end of last week, Lehman employees laid off were informed their severance payments and insurance were being cut off immediately.

OMG! OMG! I had to pause the debate. My mind is reeling within the first 10 minutes, as John McCain mentioned the founder of eBay in the answer to who would you appoint Sec of the Treasury. This "common person" approach has gone way too far.

In O's first answer, he mentioned the equivalent of the WPA, which not only would it put people to work but our roads and bridges really need overhauling. How better to get that done than with the unemployed?

I just got home and had to tape it. I'll have to read coverage tomorrow and watch tomorrow night.

John McCain mentioned the founder of eBay in the answer to who would you appoint Sec of the Treasury. eBay laid off 10% of its workforce yesaterday! Way to go, John, LOL. Er, my friend.;-)

my friend.;-) *throws back a swig of Chardonnay during drinking game*

No, no, no! You can only take a swig on 'maverick.' ;-) The drivel factor was in the double digits, when McCain was talking about any domestic issues. My eyes are tired after rolling around in their sockets most of the night. :-(

You can only take a swig on 'maverick.' ;-) *snort* That was the other night with Palin/Biden. My liver can only take so much of this and there's another one of these next week. ;-)

My liver can only take so much of this A shout-out to all livers!

Instead of Meg Whitman (from eBay), I'd like to throw Debbie Fields' name into the ring of possible Treasury Secretaries. ;-) But wikipedia is already updated with tonight's reference. Amazing that technology. ;-) She earned a Bachelor of Economics from Princeton University where she was a member of the student organization Business Today. She received an MBA from Harvard Business School in 1979. Career Before eBay, Ms. Whitman was with toymaker Hasbro Inc., overseeing global management and marketing of two of the world's best-known children's brands, Playskool and Mr. Potato Head. Prior to Hasbro, Meg was president and CEO of Florists Transworld Delivery (FTD), the world's largest floral products company. In previous years, she held executive positions at the Stride Rite Corporation and at the Walt Disney Company. Meg also worked for eight years at Bain & Company's San Francisco office, where she was a vice president. She began her career in 1979 at Procter & Gamble in Cincinnati, Ohio. Ms. Whitman also serves on the boards of the eBay Foundation, Procter & Gamble and DreamWorks Animation. Philanthropy Whitman has donated more than $30 million to her alma mater, Princeton University. The donation has allowed the construction of the university's sixth residential college, Whitman College, which opened in Fall 2007. Political activities Whitman has made numerous political donations to various candidates and PACs. While these have gone to both Republican and Democratic beneficiaries, the donations seem to be weighted to Republican politicians such as Orrin Hatch, Charles Pickering, and George Allen. Whitman was a supporter of former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney's presidential campaign in 2008 and was on his "National Finance Team". She was also listed as Finance co-chair of Romney's campaign exploratory committee. After Romney stepped out of the race, Whitman joined John McCain's presidential campaign as a national co-chair. She has political ambitions of her own and is considering a run for Governor of California in the 2010 election. Whitman was also named as a dark horse candidate for the Vice Presidential slot in McCain's 2008 presidential bid. At the Republican National Convention (2008), Whitman gave a speech about what presumptive presidential nominee McCain would do in his first one hundred days in office if elected President of the United States.

Our tax dollars hard at work saving the economy... After Bailout, AIG Execs Head to California Resort Rescued by Taxpayers, $440,000 for Retreat Including "Pedicures, Manicures" By BRIAN ROSS and TOM SHINE October 7, 2008� Less than a week after the federal government committed $85 billion to bail out AIG, executives of the giant AIG insurance company headed for a week-long retreat at a luxury resort and spa, the St. Regis Resort in Monarch Beach, California, Congressional investigators revealed today. "Rooms at this resort can cost over $1,000 a night," Congressman Henry Waxman (D-CA) said this morning as his committee continued its investigation of Wall Street and its CEOs. AIG documents obtained by Waxman's investigators show the company paid more than $440,000 for the retreat, including nearly $200,000 for rooms, $150,000 for meals and $23,000 in spa charges. [cont'd] http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5973452&page=1

Yeah, effing incredible! Obama specifically mentioned that one last night.

I've been to that St. Regis resort. Right outside of Laguna Beach. Gorgeous. Those bastards. Does it bug anyone else when McCain says he knows how to get bin Laden--but apparently he hasn't shared that "knowledge" with anyone? Some of these are pretty funny: Campaign Comedy: Tuesday's late-night TV wrap-up By LYNN ELBER, AP Television Writer Political debates inform voters � and provide material for late-night TV show hosts. "Tonight's presidential debate took place in Nashville, Tenn. Which is perfect, because the economy right now is like a bad country music song: `I lost my girl, I lost the house, the dog died,'" Jay Leno said on NBC's "Tonight Show." Although "Tonight" and other shows were taped before Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama met Tuesday night � Jon Stewart of Comedy Central's "The Daily Show" labeled it a "space-time continuum problem" � the jokes wouldn't be stopped. "Tonight's presidential debate was a town hall forum," said Stephen Colbert on Comedy Central's "The Colbert Report." "See, that allows the candidates to go around the media filter and lets regular Americans ask the questions that the candidates can ignore to deliver their stump speeches." Obama took one for the "Tonight" show. "It's a town hall format, which is John McCain's favorite way to speak to crowds. As opposed to Barack Obama's favorite way, a sermon on a mount," Leno quipped. McCain's age proved a subject that never gets old. "The second presidential debate is tonight, and beforehand John McCain said that the `gloves are coming off.' Then McCain said, `But don't worry, the diaper is staying on,'" quipped Conan O'Brien on NBC's "Late Night." With the debate format, "the candidates can walk around freely," noted Craig Ferguson on CBS' "The Late Late Show." "McCain prepared by putting new tennis balls on his walker." Meanwhile, Sarah Palin, the Republican vice presidential candidate, was holding fast as a late-night mainstay. "In Boca Raton, Fla., yesterday, a woman who looked like Sarah Palin caused a near-riot when she walked into a diner for breakfast," Leno said. "After a minute or two, people finally realized it wasn't her when she started answering questions." "Is there anything this woman can't make sound folksy?" Stewart said of Palin. "`And let's not forget about that doggone genocide in Rwanda!'" "In a recent speech, Sarah Palin referred to Afghanistan as `our neighboring country.' Then she promised to find Osama bin Laden in the mountains of Toronto," O'Brien said. And Palin starred atop CBS "Late Show" host David Letterman's list of Top 10 Signs You Are Watching a Bad Debate: "It's 90 minutes of folksy phrases and winking." The economy and the current president didn't escape skewering. "The bad news: The Dow dropped 500 points today. The good news: I didn't know there were 500 left," said Colbert. "President Bush's response to the economic crisis was to meet with small business owners at a soda shop in San Antonio, Texas, this week. The bad news: The small business owners are now General Motors, General Electric, Century 21," offered Leno. O'Brien's take: "President Bush gave a speech today about the economy and he said that he believes that `anyone who makes bad decisions should fail.' Then Bush looked around the room and said, `Hey, why did it get so quiet in here?'"

I have been following the discussions here for a long time about the upcoming presidental election but I have stayed out of it. I am so furious right now I just can't anymore. Palin has me seeing red along with her maverick(what's his name again?) When I read about her accusations about Obama and then someone shouts "Kill him." Mrs. Betty Crocker(and IMO her lifestyles and views are just that a crock of s**t)has gone to far. This woman has no brains. Doesn't she realize that Obama has a family? There are so many crazy people out there that would think nothing of harming him or his children. Is it just me or are McCain and Palin prejudice against other races. How about last night when again McCain would not look at Obama and called him that man instead of addressing him properly. IMO these two have got to go. They must walk slowly out of this race and I'll carry the big stick to swat them both. Where will I swat them to? McCain into a nursing home for retired veterans where he can swap old war stories and Palin right back to Alaska where she can hunt,wink and give those 3rd graders extra credit. BTW I have great respect for our military both past and present and I mean no disrespect to these men and women when I talk about a nursing home for retired veterans. As I said before I am just very angry. Lastly, IMO if any woman deserves to be the first woman in the White House it is Hillary. Not that doggone Palin.

Lastly, IMO if any woman deserves to be the first woman in the White House it is Hillary. Not that doggone Palin. Amen! Every time I hear any of them speak I think of Hillary. Marlene, you can blame the DNC for selecting Obama over Hillary. It is well documented. The debate was boring and the only new thing out was McCain's plan to buy out those outstanding mortages. I think Obama will win in Nov. as I've said before, it is his to lose. But I'm still dreaming of Hillary 2012.

(Mari) Does it bug anyone else when McCain says he knows how to get bin Laden--but apparently he hasn't shared that "knowledge" with anyone? Porter Goss, former head of the CIA, said he knew where he was, but what came of that? ;-) (Marlene) Is it just me or are McCain and Palin prejudice against other races. They may not personally be, but it's used to encourage fear among other things, so people won't vote for Obama. Like Bush used Iraq and 9/11 before the 2004 election.

Marlene, join a few others in the Commiseration Corner. ;-) I know exactly what you mean about watching McCain. I found it incredibly difficult to last night. He seemed totally programmed and out of touch. Obama looked human and relaxed next to him. Watching McCain pace around, with gibberish coming out of his mouth and his few, flat attempts at humor and unconcealed lack of respect for his opponent, was painful, doggone it!

(Karen)Watching McCain pace around, with gibberish coming out of his mouth and his few, flat attempts at humor and unconcealed lack of respect for his opponent, was painful, doggone it! He reminded me of those grumpy old men who live on your block and who are always shouting at the kids, "get off my lawn!" Obama came off as the guy who would be a cool, level head in a crisis, and not just last night, but in the way he's conducted himself over the past weeks. Contrast with Grandpa Chicken Little who had to "rush back" to DC to "settle" the financial crisis.

The Daily Show was priceless tonight. Am now watching Bill Maher's new show and shouting at the tv every time his disingenuous Republican-apologist spouts off some utter bullsh*t (actually Janeane Garafolo and I are shouting in unison). OMG - Rosanne looks so thin!!

And can I say - John McCain doddering around on that stage and whispering and repeating himself, etc. made himself look like he is so old he's farting dust!! He was absolutely CREEPY - esp when he was trying to touch that poor woman in the audience - if I were her, I'd have shouted at him to get his creepy old-man hands off me. He really was creeping me out.

(Sarah) OMG - Rosanne looks so thin!! Unbelievable! She looked really great. She looks like someone's cool grandma or aunt.

AGain, lots of progress on a male issue. First you have a easy blood test for prostate cancer, then Viagra, now this. Absolutely no progress on female issues. You'd think companies would want to cash in on developing a cure for hot flashes or similar. But no, make women suffer from hormonal changes. Hair today, gone tomorrow -- and this is why Sun Oct 12, 6:56 PM ET Gene detectives on Sunday said they had netted two genetic variants that, together, boost the risk of male baldness sevenfold. The two variants are located on a stretch of DNA on Chromosome 20, according to a study carried out on 1,125 men of European descent. "These variants are present in one in seven Caucasian men and provide novel insights into the cause of this common and sometimes distressing condition," the team said. Previous research has determined that male pattern baldness -- also known as androgenic alopecia -- has a highly genetic origin. Heritability accounts for 80 percent of cases. The study, published online by the journal Nature Genetics of the British-based Nature Publishing Group, was carried out by a multinational team from Britain, Iceland, Switzerland and the Netherlands. One of the lead researchers, Tim Spector of King's College London, said the findings raised questions as to the evolutionary origins of baldness and opened up new paths for cures for hair loss. "The strong genetic basis of hair loss is odd, as any evolutionary advantage is unclear," said Spector in a press release. "Clearly, most men know if they are bald or not. But early prediction before hair loss starts may lead to some interesting therapies that are more effective than treating late-stage hair loss." (...) Given the feasibility of gene therapy in human follicles, our results may point to an intriguing new potential target for the treatment of hair loss in men and possibly women." By coincidence, a separate study also published in the same journal, reported that scientists had isolated a group of stem cells in mice that can repopulate and maintain all cell types of the hair follicle. Androgenic alopecia can have a big social impact as it affects a man's self-image. Baldness is also associated with an array of health problems, including coronary heart disease and hypertension in men and polycystic ovarian syndrome and insulin resistance in women. The reasons are unclear, but one theory is that some of the genes involved in hair loss also play a role in the molecular mechanisms for these diseases. The newly-identified variants on the p11 stretch of Chromosome 20 add to telltale genes, located in the X chromosome, that are receptors for the hormone androgen.

(Karen) But no, make women suffer from hormonal changes I agree. I was part of the hormone replacement revolution and they were great. Sadly, the real cost of those miracle drugs was not known for years. I am sick and tired of the incessant ED commercials for Viagra and Cialis. Sheesh you'd think that a huge percentage of American men have a problem. I don't believe it for a minute. Surely by now those with a problem are aware that such drugs exist.

I'd say the industry has joined forces to insure that men continue to be and look virile, whereas women should be allowed to turn into old hags, with an ever-ready crop of nubile babes available that only have one period a year. Talk about your conspiracies. ;-)

Sen. Clinton says 2nd White House run is unlikely Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton puts the chances of her running for president again at near zero � slightly higher than the chances she gives for becoming Senate majority leader or a Supreme Court justice. In an interview aired Tuesday on "Fox & Friends" on the Fox News Channel, Clinton, D-N.Y., was asked the chances, on a scale of 1 to 10, that she would be the next majority leader in the Senate. "Oh, probably zero," she said. "I'm not seeking any other position than to be the best senator from New York that I can be." Being nominated to the Supreme Court? "Zero," Clinton said. "I have no interest in doing that." Running for president again? "Probably close to zero," she said. "There's an old saying: Bloom where you're planted." The former first lady, who was elected to the Senate in 2000 and re-elected in 2006, said she looked forward to working as a senator with a Barack Obama administration

Hillary had also stated on Larry King that she would not run for president. I can't think of another woman as qualified for the job. Her fan base will help her make the right decision if McCain is elected.

Hillary supporters who go along with this really need to take a step back. If we support this behavior (support Obama), how can we complain about what was done to Hillary? It's the same thing as before, Obama's campaign sets the tone and apparently it's still acceptable to treat the female candidate in a derogatory manner. Being supportive of women's issues is more than talk--it's about actions--it's about treating female candidates with the same respect as we treat the male candidates. http://www.comcast.net/data/fan/html/popup.html?v=888620113

Forgot to add that Biden has had quite a few "Bush" moments on the campaign trail, but nobody picks up on it. Once again, unfair treatment.

Larry Summers comments are outragious and he is an BO economic advisor: Larry Summers: 3 Strikes, You're OUT! http://thenewagenda.net/2008/10/12/larry-summers-3-strikes-youre-out/

Biden has had quite a few "Bush" moments on the campaign trail, but nobody picks up on it. Once again, unfair treatment. I've seen items about them. Don't remember where, but you and I are aware, so someone must be picking them up. If you mean more mainstream media, couldn't tell ya.

Frankly, I am not surprised HC would say those things in public. Of course she can't reveal whatever promises were made. Now, I guess if she gets one of those positions people will continue to gripe that she's a liar. Totally damned if you do and damned if you don't. :-( Every night I have to check out Anderson Cooper's 10 Most Wanted: Culprits of the Collapse. He names names. The first three were fairly obvious: 10. Joe Cassano (from AIG) 9. Lehman Brothers CEO Dick Fuld 8. Chris Cox - SEC Chairman and last night was my old pick: Phil Gramm!! Dah man! You can watch the videos here: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/category/culprits-of-the-collapse/ and this is an excellent recap of Phil's influential life: http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/foreclosure-phil.html

(Moon)If we support this behavior (support Obama), how can we complain about what was done to Hillary? Hoo boy, and *that* might mean getting over it and moving on and voting for the person whose ideology matches Hillary's almost exactly. Don't wanna do that, no sirree.;-) Biden has had quite a few "Bush" moments You're not specific, but if the question is, has Joe had some foot-in-mouth moments? Of course, that's what makes him Joe and people who live in my area know that about him. BUT--it it always an intelligent, informed foot. Unlike Bush, whose doozies come from . . . well, not from an informed, intelligent place. Big difference. And don't get me started on Palin and her downright ignorance on the issues. Her candidacy is an affront. Did you see her drop the puck at the Flyers opener on Saturday? She was booed off the ice. LOL, tough Philly crowd.

And don't get me started on Palin and her downright ignorance on the issues. Her candidacy is an affront. Also including both she and McCain publically encouraging hatred and ignorance in others.

I was just rereading more carefully the stuff I skimmed over.... (Moon) Being supportive of women's issues is more than talk--it's about actions Obviously you aren't talking about McCain. *Or* Palin (the irony!).

And for the record, I don't agree at all with Obama supporters with those T-shirts. Despicable. (Mari) Unlike Bush, whose doozies come from . . . well, not from an informed, intelligent place. Truer words.....

McCain apparently has his own dubious associates... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/14/154348/28/122/630428

It's McCain's "presidential transition team", Dorine. I don't think they're ever going to actually be assembled, no less ever do any work...

hmmmm

Let's try it this way....

Sarah, don't sweat the small stuff. This election is Obama's to lose. Put your champagne bottle in the fridge. (Moon) Being supportive of women's issues is more than talk--it's about actions This election as some want to believe is not about abortion. That is not the single woman's issue at there. I'm more concerned with the blatant discrimination of women. I experienced it when I was working for Hillary and it's strong for Palin too. Here is a new Feminist site, Non-Partisan for once: http://thenewagenda.net/2008/10/12/chewing-the-fat-with-ophelia/ (Dorine), McCain apparently has his own dubious associates... And that's all that matters, right? Does anyone in BO camp give a fig about his dubious associates? :-( Mari Re: Biden, this is just one of the recent ones: Biden garbles Depression history Joe Biden's denunciation of his own campaign's ad to Katie Couric got so much attention last night that another odd note in the interview slipped by. He was speaking about the role of the White House in a financial crisis. "When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the princes of greed," Biden told Couric. "He said, 'Look, here's what happened.'" As Reason's Jesse Walker footnotes it: "And if you owned an experimental TV set in 1929, you would have seen him. And you would have said to yourself, 'Who is that guy? What happened to President Hoover?'"

My friend's mother is running for office in Indiana, she's there helping out with her campaign, they are all democrats. My friend is a Hillary supporter and we spent a lot of time together working for Hillary. She was called a racist for supporting Hillary by Obama supporters at a Hillary ralley we attended together. My white friend who had adopted and raised two black boys. Her vote for McCain, is also a protest vote. She sent me this email she received from one of her friend. I'm glad people are starting to ask questions. From a friend who used to be FOR Obama: About six months ago, I started thinking 'where did the money come from for Obama'. I have four daughters who went to college, and we were middle class, and money was tight. We (including my girls) worked hard and there were lots of student loans.I started looking into Obama's life. Where has the money come from? Around 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in California. He is very open about his two years at Occidental. He even admits that he tried all kinds of drugs and was wasting his time. Even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply himself to his studies. 'Barry' (that was the name he used during his early years) had two roommates during this time, Muhammad Hassan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both Muslims from Pakistan. During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia; next to Hyderabad in India; three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family; then off to Africa to visit his father's family. Where did he get the money for this trip? Nether I, nor any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they were in college. When he came back he started school at Columbia University in New York . It is at this time he asks everyone to call him Barrack - not Barry. Do you know what the tuition is at Columbia? It's not cheap, to say the least. Where did he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe. After Columbia, he went to Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for $12,000 a year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living in New York By 'chance'(?) he met Antoin 'Tony' Rezko, born in Aleppo, Syria, and a real estate developer in Chicago. Rezko was convicted of fraud and bribery th s year, (nice guy?). Rezko, was named 'Entrepreneur of the Decade' by the Arab-American Business and Professional Association'. About two years later, Obama entered Harvard Law School. Do you have any idea what tuition is for Harvard Law School? Where did he get the money for Law School? More student loans? After Law school he went back to Chicago. Rezko offered him a job, which he turned down. But, he did take a job with the law firm Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Guess what? That's the firm that represented 'Rezar', which is Rezko's firm. Rezko was one of Obama's first major financial contributors when he ran for office in Chicago. In 2003, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama which Chicago Tribune reporter David Mendelland claims was instrumental in providing Obama with 'seed money' for his U.S. Senate race. In 2005, Obama purchased a new home in the Kenwood District of Chicago. He paid $1.65 million for the place. While paying off all those previous student loans (?) - Where did he get the money for the property? On the same day Rezko's wife, Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot. TheLondon Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born Billionaire loaned Rezko $3.5 million three weeks before Obama purchased this new home. Obama has met Nadhmi Auchi many times with Rezko. Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does not make any major decisions without consulting with her first. Where was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz, Iran! Do we see a pattern here? Or am I just stupid? On May 10, 2008 The Times reported that Robert Malley, an advisor to Obama, was 'sacked' after the press found out he was having regular contacts with 'Hamas'. The same Hamas that controls Gaza and is connected with Iran and terrorism. Oh, and by the way, remember Obama's college roommates, the Muslims who where from Pakistan? They are now in charge of all those 'small' internet campaign contributions coming in for Obama. Where is that money coming from? The middle class in this country? Or could it be from the Middle East? And a final tidbit. On September 7, 2008, The Washington Times posted a verbal slip that Obama made on the 'This Week' TV show with George Stephanapoulos. Obama, when talking about his religion said, 'My Muslim faith'. When questioned about this, it was stated, 'he made a mistake'. Some mistake! I got all of the above information on-line. If you would like to check it Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama; Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett: Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times - September 7, 2008; The Times May 10, 2008.Now the BIG question - If I found out all this information on my own, Why haven't all of our 'intelligent' members of the media been reporting this? A phrase keeps running through my mind - 'Beware of the enemy from within'!!!

LOL! Hmm, maybe he's thinking of high-def radio with a built-in time warp. ;-)

This election as some want to believe is not about abortion. That is not the single woman's issue at there. Nor was I insinuating or meaning that it was with my comment. Both McCain and Palin have bad policy/vote histories on a variety of women's issues. And that's all that matters, right? Does anyone in BO camp give a fig about his dubious associates? :-( I'm not sure of your point. To clarify....does anyone in BO's camp care about McCain's associations or his own (BO's) associations? McCain (Republicans) seemed to think pointing out Obama's dubious associations was the tactic du jour last week since nothing else was working. I was just pointing out that McCain seems to think dubious associations from long ago should be a deal breaker, while he has his own connections of questionable quality (who are currently involved with him). Personally, I think there are other things to worry about.

Speaking of dubious associations, what most people don't understand is the makeup of the area Obama lives in. Hyde Park is the area surrounding the U of Chicago. It is a unique enclave on the South Side, made up of U people and old-time liberals, going way, way back. Beautiful old homes there (think Leopold and Loeb). Because Ayers is involved in educational reform, it would be natural for them to have some contact. Moreover, their kids would go to the U of C's lab school.

Isn't the Washington Times the Moonie-owned, right wing publication? During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia; next to Hyderabad in India; three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family; then off to Africa to visit his father's family. Where did he get the money for this trip? Nether I, nor any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they were in college. During the summer of '91, before my final year of college/internship, I took a summer trip around Europe for 3 months on money I saved working at my parttime/occasionally fulltime on class breaks job (@6.00/hr) while going to school. I financed with a credit card with a $1500 credit line I got especially for the trip plus a few hundred dollars sent by relatives. We budgeted $25 dollars a day (sometimes went over or under) and slept in mostly hostels or cheap housing. Afterward, I went back to school for 9 months (paid for by student loans as with the rest of my education) and was only able to work 3 months in a parttime job during that time. As far as paying for something like that, when there's a will, there's a way. (Reminds me of Frozen River! ;-)) I find nothing unusual about Obama's trip. I ran into a number of Australians of my age traveling the world for a year who would get odd jobs to support their trip. And they went *everywhere*. And as far as Obama at Harvard, I would think there are financial options available for him as a minority and for all we know, he got grants, scholarships and or loans. The Times reported that Robert Malley, an advisor to Obama, was 'sacked' after the press found out he was having regular contacts with 'Hamas'. The same Hamas that controls Gaza and is connected with Iran and terrorism. And Hillary had to do the same thing for one of her advisors playing both ends against the middle on something Hillary was publically against (will admit I've forgotten the specifics).

(Dorine), Isn't the Washington Times the Moonie-owned, right wing publication? I don't know who owns it, but I'm all for equal time, and so far this election has been an Obama love fest. You do know that he's in the process of buying a half-hour same time slot on each mayor network so he can speak to all just days before the election? He has a $$$ cow. Is that fair and democratic? What EVER happened to equal time? And why am I the only one bothered by this? Karen, no one has brought up Ayers. So he's the communist that lives in the "in" chic part of town? The '60's was a time to be radical. Of course, bombing and killing was not the way to go about it. IMO.

(Dorine), I find nothing unusual about Obama's trip. Of course not. ;-) Please make another batch of koolaid.

He has a $$$ cow. Which is a problem, why? Is that fair and democratic? If he didn't opt for public financing, indeed it is. What EVER happened to equal time? Nothing? McCain is free to buy time as well.

Was there ever a better example of letting men be in charge of decisions affecting a woman? John McCain showing his cynicism when he talked about exceptions based on the "supposed" the health of the mother. Oh man!! (Moon) So he's the communist No, he's not a communist. A radical, yes. that lives in the "in" chic part of town? No, I'd never characterize Hyde Park as being the "in" or "chic" part of town. It is merely the area around the university and would have a disproportionate number of intellectuals living there of all stripes. Milton Friedman got the Nobel Prize for economics and he was from the U of C. He was the biggest advocate of free markets. Despite being a libertarian, Reagon glommed onto his work. Hyde Park would be more like Cambridge, Mass, but is only a neighborhood. The '60's was a time to be radical. Of course, bombing and killing was not the way to go about it. IMO.

I think this might sum it up for many people... My 401(k) is down $21,000 since the end of September. And John McCain thinks I should be worried about William Ayers. http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/editorials/hc-webpitts1015.artoct15,0,3144917.story

Did anyone happen to watch the new political thriller yesterday called "The Shootout at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?" The stellar cast included a newcomer to the movie industry called Joe the Plumber. Joe's performance was so outstanding he is being sought after for exclusive interviews. Sadly, Joe can not be found as he seems to have suddenly taken a vacation to some remote island. I need to find some humor in this presidental election before severe depression sets in. It doesnt't look like DH will be retiring for awhile because our 401(k)is also down so much that even if the ecomony was to improve right now, (which we know will not happen) it will take at least 7 years to build it up to where it was before September. Right now the economy is my #1 concern. I am going to be 50 next month, and I have just watched all the capital gain we have earned over many years go right down the toilet. It's a good thing we didn't just invest in stocks. IMO, I think Obama will do more for the middle class than McCain who seems to be out of touch with reality. BTW Obama did talk about equal pay for woman last night. As the saying goes, Actions Speak Louder than Words, so if he wins it will be a wait and see situation.

(Dorine), Isn't the Washington Times the Moonie-owned, right wing publication? (Moon) I don't know who owns it, but I'm all for equal time BTW, my question was more rhetorical as I did know about them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Times

When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the princes of greed," Biden told Couric. LOL, Moon, that is such an insignificant gaffe. It hurts no one. But it is pretty funny.:-) Where has the money come from? I know a lot of people who did the "backbacking through Europe" thing right after college and they didn't have a pot to piss in. When you're 22, you live cheap and it doesn't bother you. (Dorine)And as far as Obama at Harvard, I would think there are financial options available for him as a minority Of course. And coupled with his intellect, probably every school in the Ivy League was after him. I wouldn't be surprised it he got a full ride. Besides, most schools come up with some sort of financial package when they offer you admission, and depending on your grades and financial situation it could be scholarships, loans, grants, or a combo of all three. (Karen)Was there ever a better example of letting men be in charge of decisions affecting a woman? John McCain showing his cynicism when he talked about exceptions based on the "supposed" the health of the mother. Oh man!! Yeah, that's it, John, women are manipulating the definition of "health" just so they can get more abortions. Here's the transcript and I find his responses very offenisive: OBAMA: We can find some common ground, because nobody's pro-abortion. I think it's always a tragic situation. We should try to reduce these circumstances. SCHIEFFER: Let's give Sen. McCain a short response... McCAIN: Just again... SCHIEFFER: ... and then... McCAIN: Just again, the example of the eloquence of Sen. Obama. He's "health for the mother." You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything. That's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, "health."

Is that fair and democratic? (Dorine)If he didn't opt for public financing, indeed it is. How about Obama's U-turn on public financing? LOL! His whole career is based on changing his mind when it suits him personally. I have a problem with that, when it is a very ambitious politician who does it. What EVER happened to equal time? (Dorine), Nothing? McCain is free to buy time as well. That's not the point. On Oct. 29th NBC and CBS are moving around their schedules to fit BO half-hour infomercial, as if we didn't get enough of them already!!! IMO, they should not allow his time if McCain can't buy the same. Karen, Radical chic = Communist. And, whatever views McCain might have had on women's issues, the fact that he picked a women as his VP is sending a message. This is an excellent reminder of some of the nice things the Obama's said about the Clintons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsUnw5RDYoA

LOL, Moon, that is such an insignificant gaffe. It hurts no one. But it is pretty funny.:-) I know. But Bush is bag full of insignificant gaffes and I still cringe. (Mari), I know a lot of people who did the "backbacking through Europe" thing right after college and they didn't have a pot to piss in. When you're 22, you live cheap and it doesn't bother you. Yes, Europe. But Barry went to see his mother in Indonesia; next to Hyderabad in India; three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family; then off to Africa to visit his father's family. When he returned from that trip he asked to be called Barack.

they should not allow his time if McCain can't buy the same. Again, McCain is free to do the same. Why do you keep insinuating he can't? And at one point, it appears McCain may have intended to use public financing also. http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/how-mccains-pub.html

But Barry went to see his mother in Indonesia; next to Hyderabad in India; three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family; then off to Africa to visit his father's family. He was smart! Saved money staying with people he knew. Wish I'd been so lucky. I ran out of money and had to have a friend wire me enough money to last the last couple of days and have enough to somehow get from JFK back to Philly on my return (which I had *no* idea how I was going to do that when I walked off the plane -- I paid for some type of shuttle bus to take me about 45 min north and luckily got hold a friend at the last minute to take me the rest of the way). the fact that he picked a women as his VP is sending a message. A not very good one considering which woman he picked.

(Mari) Here's the transcript and I find his responses very offenisive Not just the words, but he made little air quotes with his fingers to demonstrate that he didn't buy it. (Moon) Karen, Radical chic = Communist. Not to me, honey. I studied history. Communism is something very specific to me. For example, all communists are socialists. But not all socialists are communists. ;-)

(Mari), I know a lot of people who did the "backbacking through Europe" thing right after college (Moon) Yes, Europe. But Barry went to see his mother in Indonesia; next to Hyderabad in India; three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family; then off to Africa to visit his father's family. When he returned from that trip he asked to be called Barack. You go where you have an interest. I studied European History, so I went to Europe. But many people I know went to Israel. Not everyone has to go to Europe. If he was going to Indonesia, then it makes sense to explore that area of the world. And, if you're going to visit mom in Indonesia and dad in Kenya and a roomie's family from Pakistan, then you might as well do a bit of India as well. Look at a map. ;-) I'm not sure what his travel planning is indicating to you, Moon, other than making the most of one's travel dollars.

(Karen), You go where you have an interest. I studied European History, so I went to Europe. But many people I know went to Israel. Not everyone has to go to Europe. Shit, I'm zipping it up. My point is NOT coming across, LOL! Or maybe the koolaid has been refreshed? ;-) Exit Barry enter Barack. (Moon) Karen, Radical chic = Communist. (Karen), Not to me, honey. Well honey, let me enlighten you on the new generation of European communist/socialists, they are radical chic or as Evelyn calls them limousine liberals. I know plenty of them in Italy and France and Spain and England. Sheesh, I didn't think I had to explain that. Karen, there's an article in today's Wash Post Style section on Hyde Park, Chicago. One man quoted said he doesn't consider himself from Chicago, he's from Hyde Park. LOL! they should not allow his time if McCain can't buy the same. Again, McCain is free to do the same. Why do you keep insinuating he can't?

they should not allow his time if McCain can't buy the same. (Dorine), Again, McCain is free to do the same. Why do you keep insinuating he can't? You're kidding, right? Have you seen the campaign funds that BO has in comparison to McCain? Not only is the media biased and totally in the tank for BO but now, CBS and NBC are accommodating their schedules to air a half-hour BO infomercial?

(Moon) Exit Barry enter Barack. OK, so? Many children grow into their given names. Plus you have to take into consideration where he grew up. Here, in an urban area, lots of kids have African derived names or names that come from who knows what. But Obama was raised by his grandmother in Kansas, right? I doubt you'd find the same situation there. Sheesh, I didn't think I had to explain that. You didn't. I know what all those things are and certainly know what a limousine liberal ls. However, weren't we discussing Bill Ayers and his old assocites? We're talking the radicals of the 1960s and 70s. They weren't communists, merely radicals, war protesters and more anarchists than anything. I tend to be more specific in terminology and not bandy about those labels incorrectly. One man quoted said he doesn't consider himself from Chicago, he's from Hyde Park. LOL! I can believe that and it is very much true of university towns. The academic staff identifies more with the university than the geographic area. Their view is insular and they hardly venture out. Here's the article, with a photo gallery: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/15/AR2008101503728.html Uncommon Ground Yes, Obama Lives There. But Chicago's Hyde Park Is a Place All Its Own By Peter Slevin Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, October 16, 2008; C01 CHICAGO No American president has been elected from a place quite like Hyde Park, the home of Sen. Barack Obama. Among the community's notable features are a university famous for intellectualism, a pair of 1960s Weather Underground radicals famous for being unrepentant and a bloc of voters famous for choosing Sen. John Kerry over President Bush by 19 to 1. Judging by the swift demonization, Obama might as well live at the corner of Liberal and Kumbaya. Republican strategist Karl Rove placed Hyde Park alongside Cambridge, Mass., and San Francisco in a triad of leftist tomfoolery. The Weekly Standard, recalling Obama's description of former Weatherman Bill Ayers as merely "a guy who lives in my neighborhood," asked who lives in a neighborhood like that. Hyde Park in real life is not so easily typecast. The political ethic is proudly progressive on matters of race and social justice, yet the community is anchored by the University of Chicago, an incubator for some of the nation's most influential conservatives, from Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia to Nobel Prize-winning free marketeer Milton Friedman. Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan lives within four blocks of Obama's $1.6 million home, as do former Weather Underground members Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. Yet so does Richard Epstein, a prominent libertarian law professor who is quick to say he is friends with Scalia and Ayers -- and once tried to hire Dohrn. "I don't consider myself a Chicagoan," Epstein explains. "I consider myself a Hyde Parker." To be a Hyde Parker, dozens of residents say, is to choose to live in a community that considers variations of race, creed, wealth and politics to be a neighborhood selling point, like bicycle paths or broadband in a far suburb. Finishing breakfast at the Valois Cafeteria, retired utility worker Dwight Lewis points to a woman selling StreetWise, a newspaper written by homeless people. "You've got people who have nothing to people who have everything," he says. "You've got people living on the street to people who have homes worth several million dollars." For Hyde Park's most famous resident, who wants to be seen as distinctive but unthreatening, his chosen turf represents the political eclecticism and sense of post-racial possibility at the heart of his personality and campaign. Yet as Obama is learning, the narrative cuts both ways. To no one's surprise, Sen. John McCain and his supporters have pushed the idea, echoed by early surveys, that Obama is a risky choice, that he is somehow just too exotic, too erudite -- and did we mention naive? He bodysurfs in Hawaii, he orders green tea ice cream in Oregon, he writes his own books in deft prose, his name is Barack Obama. "This is not a man who sees America as you and I do, as the greatest force for good in the world," says Gov. Sarah Palin, McCain's tart-tongued running mate, who grounds her own narrative in the recently paved roads of an Alaskan town 1/500th the size of Chicago. Palin would no doubt beg to differ, but Obama friend and lifelong resident Valerie Jarrett puts it this way: "Hyde Park is the real world as it should be. If we could take Hyde Park and we could help make more Hyde Parks around our country, I think we would be a much stronger country." Blueprint of Diversity Mainstream, as mainstream is commonly defined, is not Hyde Park. The average white metropolitan resident lives in a neighborhood 80 percent white and only 7 percent black, says Northwestern University professor Mary Pattillo, who calls Hyde Park "anomalous for whites." Census tracts in the exurbs and the countryside tend to be even whiter. By contrast, the 2000 census found that 43.5 percent of the 29,000 residents in Hyde Park proper called themselves white, 37.7 percent black, 11.3 percent Asian and 4.1 percent Hispanic. Another 3.4 percent answered "other." In economic terms, there are plenty of six-figure earners, yet one in six residents lives in poverty. The median household income is about $45,000, roughly the national average. "Given all this," Pattillo says, "you can better understand the foreignness of a place like Hyde Park." Hyde Park sprang from open space along Lake Michigan in the mid-1800s as new train service attracted seaside vacationers and well-to-do residents of boomtime Chicago. In 1892, John D. Rockefeller bankrolled an upstart university and, one year later, the area hosted the World's Columbian Exposition, which helped put the Windy City on the map. By the early 1900s, Hyde Park had a growing Jewish population that expanded with the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe. The area also became a rare island where middle-class black people could aspire to live. By the 1940s, fear among some whites of the growing numbers of black families produced a bitter fight over race. The University of Chicago, saying it was trying to maintain safe surroundings, backed restrictive covenants as well as white neighborhood groups intent on barring blacks. When the Supreme Court banned racial covenants in 1948, university leaders feared white flight and an influx of poor blacks from surrounding neighborhoods. They hammered home a 1950s urban renewal plan that displaced thousands. The idea, wrote historian Arnold R. Hirsch, was to generate real estate prices high enough to "regulate both the number and 'quality' of blacks remaining." This prompted the joke that Hyde Park, for all of its pride about racial integration, was a case of "black and white together, working shoulder to shoulder against the poor." Yet the strategy worked as the university had hoped, says Timuel Black, 89, a longtime political activist. Sufficient numbers of middle-class whites and blacks stayed to preserve the community's multiracial core. "When whites found out that blacks were just like them," Black recalls with a wry smile, "acceptance was very easy." As it happens, Obama is trying to lead white voters to that same conclusion. All About the Mix Hyde Park was the first place Obama alighted in 1985 when he became a $1,000-a-month community organizer. He chose a cheap apartment in the Chicago neighborhood that best reflected his own urban, multiethnic politics and lifestyle. He listened to jazz, swam in the lake and drove his clunker to the impoverished far South Side. "That's the kind of place Barack felt most at home," says Chicago Tribune writer Don Terry, who grew up in a mulitracial family in Hyde Park. In 1993, two years after his return from Harvard Law School, Obama bought a 2,200-square-foot condominium in an integrated Hyde Park complex called East View Park with his wife Michelle, raised in nearby South Shore. They lived there through his first half-dozen campaigns and much of his tenure as a constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago. Their two daughters spent their early years there, Michelle soon commuting to work at a series of university outreach jobs. In 2005, the family moved to a house with six bedrooms and four fireplaces across the street from a synagogue. They live on a street of tall trees and landscaped lawns in the neighborhood of Kenwood, which extends four blocks north of Hyde Park but is commonly considered part of the greater Hyde Park community. Until his life was subsumed by the presidential campaign, Obama shopped at the local food co-op, browsed the stacks at 57th Street Books and hung out with his girls at the playground. He continues to wear a tattered Chicago White Sox cap and get his hair cut at a busy salon where his longtime barber, known by the single name Zariff, says, "You have to be yourself when you come in here." A few blocks from Obama's home, the Currency Exchange cashes paychecks only steps from an Aveda shop. A pita restaurant's bulletin board carries notes for Tri Yoga, Ken's Klean Kuts and the Temple of Mercy Association Annual International Marcus Garvey 2008 Parade. Valois Cafeteria, the anti-Starbucks, is packed at breakfast with transport workers cheek by jowl with businessmen studying their Wall Street Journals. Each Wednesday, a dozen retired black men get together to jaw. One day, hearing that Republicans are branding Obama and his home turf as elitist, they take up the question. "Most all of us in this room, we pulled ourselves up by the bootstraps," explains Sandy Roach, a chemist. "We got student loans, worked our way through college. We don't have any George Bushes, nobody born with silver spoons in our mouths." Nodding toward his friends, Charles Doty says, "You can find a rocket scientist and a fellow who can teach you how to shoot dice." Ask anyone: Hyde Park is all about the mix. "It shaped us, our careers and our personalities," says Alison P. Ranney, a white businesswoman. "In some ways, you don't realize until you leave how special it is." Ranney was 9 years old in the 1970s when her family left Hyde Park and moved to a coal-mining town in southern Illinois. At the new school, fourth-graders who had heard she was from Chicago kept asking whether she actually went to school with black children. Of course she did, and what of it? She remembers coming home from her first day of school and asking her mother, "Is there something you haven't been telling me about black people?" The 700 students at the public William H. Ray Elementary School are "diverse in every way imaginable," says principal Bernadette Butler. The variety of students at the private University of Chicago Laboratory Schools served as models for the inquisitive, multicultural 12-year-old protagonists in Blue Balliett's best-selling novel, "Chasing Vermeer." Balliett taught writing at Lab, where Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens graduated and Langston Hughes was once artist in residence. Malia and Sasha Obama are students there, and Michelle Obama sits on the board. "It's a place where you can be who you are and bring any kind of diversity to the table and be celebrated for it. Kids really can grow up in Hyde Park and never hear a negative conversation about those differences," Balliett says over lunch at Medici, a local hangout with carved-up wooden tables and a racially diverse clientele. "My son used to say, 'How come we aren't at least Jewish and Christian?' " When he was a boy, social activist Jamie Kalven lived in an apartment in a home owned by Manhattan Project chemist Harold Urey. At various times, the place was also owned by prizefighter Sonny Liston and jazz pianist Ahmad Jamal. Muhammad Ali once lived nearby and kept a pair of lions in an outdoor cage. Kalven is struck by the presence in Hyde Park of a roughly equal number of blacks and whites "for whom the fact of living together is no big deal." Which, in a sense, is the big deal. Political Blocks Hyde Park is often painted as an island by residents and outsiders. The depiction extends to politics. Democrats from Hyde Park often describe themselves as independents. In Chicago terms, that means they steer a course apart from the long-dominant, now fading, party machine. Hyde Park produced alderman Leon Despres, a corruption fighter who often found himself on the lonely end of 49-1 city council votes. It was home to Harold Washington, the anti-machine candidate elected as the city's first black mayor, and Sen. Paul H. Douglas, a social reformer and civil rights activist. Decades ago, when the machine was far stronger, young Abner Mikva, an Obama mentor who served as a congressman, federal judge and White House counsel, tried to volunteer at the 8th Ward Regular Democratic headquarters. "We don't want nobody nobody sent," the party operative told him. When Mikva said he was from the University of Chicago and was willing to work free, the man said, "We don't want nobody from the University of Chicago in this organization." The university is a central part of the narrative of Hyde Park as a highfalutin, arugula-eating slice of academic elitism. The U of C, as everyone calls it, boasts that 78 alumni or onetime faculty have won the Nobel Prize. That makes Hyde Park surely the only place in America where an academic and his wife, going through a divorce, would include a clause splitting future winnings if he scored the economics prize. He won, and sent her $500,000. As with Hyde Park itself, there is an essential element of the university that reflects Obama's way of seeing the world. It has to do with the interchange of ideas, a realm in which the cerebral, pragmatic, inherently cautious Illinois senator may be at his most comfortable. University President Robert Zimmer describes an atmosphere of ferment and says, "There's a real push for people not to be overly comfortable with their assumptions." While Zimmer talks of rigor, Chicago Public Schools Chief Arne Duncan talks of openness, idealism and accomplishment. An Obama friend and Hyde Parker to the core, Duncan says unabashedly that the Obamas "represent the best of what Hyde Park is." He considers it no coincidence that "a disproportionate number of civic leaders come out of Hyde Park." It is ironic -- or perhaps inevitable -- that a Daumier-like caricature of Hyde Park has fueled critics and mischief-makers on opposing sides. Conservative columnist David Brooks noted the idea in some Republican circles that Obama is "some naive university-town dreamer, the second coming of Adlai Stevenson." When challenged by Obama in a 2000 House race, Rep. Bobby Rush (D), a former Black Panther, jeered that Obama "went to Harvard and became an educated fool." State Sen. Donne Trotter said Obama was seen as "the white man in blackface in our community." This is Mr. Obama's neighborhood, where conservative law professor Epstein can cite a "slightly loopy side to Hyde Park politics" and still praise a history of "social toleration." It is the home turf of Ayers and Dohrn, whose fiery 1960s ambition to topple U.S. government gave way to roles as university professors and intense Little League coaches. It is a place where differences are just differences. "Hyde Park should be held up as an example of what an integrated community could be," says University of Chicago law professor M. Todd Henderson, who grew up in a white Pittsburgh suburb. "It wasn't some sort of social experiment." Henderson says his adopted community is a place where ideas matter more than pedigree and one cannot infer social status by skin color. He says the visible hardships in nearby neighborhoods and the persistent threat of crime undermine any notion that Hyde Park is, in his words, "a fantasy land." "To criticize Hyde Park as being aloof, out of touch and elitist is just poppycock," he says. "I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Republican, and there is nothing America should be ashamed about Hyde Park. On the contrary, America should be proud of Hyde Park."

(Karen), They weren't communists, merely radicals, war protesters and more anarchists than anything. I tend to be more specific in terminology and not bandy about those labels incorrectly. Once again, you're kidding right? All those radical groups loved Gramci, and Carl Marx. The radical group Briggate Rosse in Italy is one example. I tend to be more specific in terminology and not bandy about those labels incorrectly. Another BB? ;-)

Karl Marx quotation: Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without feminine upheaval. Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex, the ugly ones included. I always got a kick out of that one. :-D

*snort* Joe the Plumber, so worried about more taxes under Obama, owes over $1100 in back taxes. `Joe the Plumber,' Obama Tax-Plan Critic, Owes Taxes Ryan J. Donmoyer � Thu Oct 16, 6:17 pm ET (Bloomberg) -- ``Joe the plumber,'' the Toledo, Ohio, man whose complaints about Barack Obama's tax plan were highlighted by John McCain in the final presidential debate, owes the state of Ohio almost $1,200 in back income taxes. According to records on file with the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, the state filed a tax lien against Samuel J. Wurzelbacher for $1,182.98 on Jan. 26, 2007, that is still active. Wurzelbacher was thrust into the national spotlight this week when he told Obama he worried that the Illinois senator's proposals to roll back Bush administration tax breaks for Americans earning more than $250,000 would prevent him from buying a plumbing business that would earn between $250,000 and $280,000 a year. McCain, an Arizona Republican senator, pointed to the exchange during the debate last night when he turned to the camera and said, ``I will not stand for a tax increase on small- business income.'' Directly criticizing Obama, he added, ``what you want to do to `Joe the plumber' and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.'' Today, at a rally in Downingtown, Pennsylvania, McCain said ``the real winner last night was `Joe the plumber.''' On Oct. 12, as Obama was campaigning door-to-door in suburban Toledo, Wurzelbacher confronted the Democratic presidential nominee about his tax plan. `American Dream' ``Do you believe in the American dream?'' Wurzelbacher asked before asking about the tax increase. ``I'm being taxed more and more for fulfilling the American dream.'' Wurzelbacher's home telephone number is unlisted, and efforts to reach him by calling his neighbors and family were unsuccessful. Attempts to reach Wurzelbacher at the plumbing company where he works were also unsuccessful. The address on the lien and other records for him matched the address published by the Toledo Blade, which also noted the lien. Wurzelbacher told ABC's ``Good Morning America'' program today that high earners shouldn't be ``penalized for being successful.'' The state of Ohio places a lien on real property after several steps to try to collect a tax debt, according to John Kohlstrand, a spokesman for the Ohio Department of Taxation who said he couldn't discuss any specific case. Delinquency Notice If a delinquency notice goes unheeded, the Department of Taxation issues a billing notice, Kohlstrand said. If that is ignored, a more formal assessment notice is sent. Failing to appeal an assessment or losing an appeal puts the debt into the hands of the state attorney general for collection. The attorney general typically sends a collection notice and simultaneously files a lien. ``The taxpayers may not necessarily know about the lien,'' Kohlstrand said, although they would receive other notices. In Wurzelbacher's case, the lien indicated that the notice was sent to a previous address in Toledo. Ray Ann Estep, section chief for revenue-recovery services for the Ohio attorney general, said Wurzelbacher's lien was filed six months after the Department of Taxation certified the debt for collection. ``Unfortunately, sometimes people don't resolve their debts as quickly as we would like them to,'' she said. Obama's Plan In addition to tax credits and a proposal that would allow Wurzelbacher to avoid paying capital-gains taxes if he ever sold the business he wants to acquire for a profit, Obama has proposed allowing the top two tax rates of 33 percent and 35 percent to revert to what they were during the Clinton administration, or 36 percent and 39.6 percent, respectively. In 2007, the 33 percent bracket applied to taxable income exceeding $195,851. Under Obama's proposal, Wurzelbacher would face about $900 more in taxes if he netted $280,000 of income from his new business and had to pay an extra 3 percentage points on the amount over $195,851, said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the Tax Foundation, a Washington research group that is examining both candidates' plans. ``His average tax burden, the final bill he pays to the IRS isn't going to go up much if he's just making $280,000 a year,'' Prante said. He would face higher marginal tax costs to expand the business beyond that, he said. Not Taxable Income It's far more likely that the $280,000 Wurzelbacher told Obama he'd earn would be in the form of gross receipts and not taxable income, said Steven Bankler, a certified public accountant in San Antonio, who counts plumbers and other trade professionals as his clients. According to an analysis by Dun & Bradstreet on Wurzelbacher's employer, A. W. Newell Corp., the plumbing and heating contractor has annual sales of $510,000. If Wurzelbacher bought the company, by the time he took proper business deductions, Bankler said, he'd be left with between $150,000 and $200,000 in taxable income and wouldn't be affected by Obama's proposed increase in the top rates. Wurzelbacher might eventually have to pay more employment taxes under Obama's plan to impose a rate of between 2 percent and 4 percent on wages over $250,000, Bankler said, but Obama has said that change wouldn't take effect for a decade. Wurzelbacher doesn't have a plumber's license and isn't registered as a plumber in Ohio, the Toledo Blade reported on its Web site today. His employer has a state plumbing license, the newspaper said. Before living in Ohio, Wurzelbacher was a resident of Mesa, Arizona, in McCain's home state, according to property records. To contact the reporter on this story: Ryan J. Donmoyer in Washington at rdonmoyer@bloomberg.net http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20081016/pl_bloomberg/ac4j3t5s_eq;_ylt=Aonxbb8NRbvs13mCa3olUFKs0NUE

Apparently Obama responds about Ayers on Smerconish's show yesterday. I haven't listened to it yet. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/10/9256/0615/320/626146

(Moon)IMO, they should not allow his time if McCain can't buy the same. Sorry, but McCain chose to take public funds for his campaign--to the tune of $84 million, that's our taxpayer money--whereas Obama figured, correctly, that he could raise more by going with private funds. They both had the same choice. Disputing this is like saying I can't buy a car unless you can afford one too, even though I earned more money and managed it better. And, whatever views McCain might have had on women's issues, the fact that he picked a women as his VP is sending a message. It has sent the message that he will do anything to try to get elected, choosing a sorely unqualified running part and potentially putting the country in great danger. But Barry went to see his mother in Indonesia; next to Hyderabad in India; three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family; then off to Africa to visit his father's family. So by staying with family, it was actually cheaper than doing Europe.:-)

When he returned from that trip he asked to be called Barack. So you're saying, what? That he became militant? That he became a Muslim? That he "pals around with terrorists? That he's *gasp* an Arab?! Here's a link to the SNL skit on the Crazy McCain Rally Lady, and there's also a link there to a clip from the actual rally and the real lady. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/snls-crazy-mccain-rally-l_n_135463.html

(Dorine)*snort* Joe the Plumber, so worried about more taxes under Obama, owes over $1100 in back taxes. It gets better: CBS News is reporting that Joe may be related to, wait for it . . . Charles Keating! LMAO! http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/17/usnews/whispers/main4527926.shtml

It's far more likely that the $280,000 Wurzelbacher told Obama he'd earn would be in the form of gross receipts and not taxable income, said Steven Bankler, a certified public accountant in San Antonio, who counts plumbers and other trade professionals as his clients. See? That's the part that people don't get. People think 'gross' and not 'after deductions.' I did like the part about how Joe the Plumber doesn't even have a plumbing license. ;-)