i have been quiet! been so busy at work with messed up shifts right now....anyway, hopefully will get more time to play at the computer! have been working on my homepage adding the appropriate spring links to different pages, making a poetry webring and trying to find graphics for that (which i haven't yet) would really like to find a full moon with a wolf howling in the foreground-where the wolf is superimposed upon the moon. it would be a black background with either a white or harvest colored moon (harvest is yellow to orange). i don't know how to do it myself so if you guys find something like that, let me know!! and yes, it's been very quiet over here, not just me.....

Yes, I know. I'm probably guilty too. I feel pretty lethargic at the moment - approaching-winter-blues, I think.

do you think emotional states such as 'the blues' affect physical attractivenss ? Like if you're down, do you find fewer people attractive, including yourself?

yes, indeed. if you mean "depression" by "the blues."" one of the symptoms of depression is an inability to experience pleasure ("anhedonia"). it is not too much of a stretch to hypothesize that either your perception of your attractiveness or of others is affected by depression, but i know of no studies off the top of my head that have looked at that. i know that in my own experience that when i have been depressed that my perception of my attractiveness plummets, probably because of the link in my case between depression and self-esteem.

i think most people experiencing the blues at any level loses a bit of their self-esteem and perception of their body image. others pick up on our emotions and perhaps are affected by it as to their perception of us. for example, when you're down, people often ask if you're alright (perhaps not total strangers). also, when we are down, we don't care for ourselves the way we ought to. it has been studied that people who feel down dress in drab colors. so they suggest that to make yourself feel better, to dress in bright colors. others will pick up on that and respond accordingly.

that is very, very true. dressing down in crab colors, not cleaning up, etc., leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy of unattractiveness, thuc completing a vicious, horrible circle. having an attitude change and forcing yourself to go thru the motions of happiness can do a lot to mitigate a depressive spell. it is nice if you have friends that ask if you are ok. but one of the things i learned about depression is that no one cares if you are depressed. over the years i learned to hide it or at least to express it in different ways, such as various self-destructive behaviors.

my post above should have read "drab colors" not "crab colors" tho i guess crabs are kind of drab looking.

depends on who's looking at them. most people have a fear of depression because they don't understand it. they think that depression is just a 90's expression for the blah's and the sufferer should be able to snap out of it. everyone has their own healing time and once you get into a depression, you have to let it run it's course. what i mean by that is to accept the fact that you are depressed instead of running from it. you know what i mean? allow yourself to feel blah and you'll be surprised how fast it passes. i know how hard it is first hand. and so other's aren't alarmed- destructive behavior is not just suicidal thoughts or burning your arm with cigarettes (i knew a guy who did that). it can be anything from eating too much, sleeping too much, putting yourself down, etc. etc. i think that what made my panic much worse to deal with was that i was afraid of it and thought it meant i was crazy. so i put thoughts into my own head from the power of suggestion- just from the questions the doctor would ask trying to find an answer for my panic. over time, i learned that my panic was a result of years and years of anger. i was so angry and this frightened me because my mind was full of "supposed to haves". you know--i'm not supposed to feel this way...but i learned that it's alright to feel even the darkest things-it's what you do with it--i'm not condoning those things, but, afterall, we are human. i can sit here all day and talk about why we become depressed (it's all over the t.v. and stuff) but it's not something to blame on someone else. it's a way we have learned to protect ourselves from whatever was causing us pain. but we are still responsible for our own actions. so do i blame my parents for causing me to have panic? no. did they contribute? sure, but i don't blame them nor do i blame myself. no one can make you feel a certain way. you are the one in charge of yourself. this is what makes us human beings and not human doings. i believe i've been through hell and back and God is the one who kept me from burning up. my version of hell may be different from yours but each of us have our limits on what we can deal with. God is what got me through the years of abuse and then the dark aftermath of dealing with it head-on. But i'll tell you what, i'm glad i made it through and learned so maybe someone else can too. (sorry for preaching). *hugs*

*beamz* darlin'

I think depression leads to chemical imbalances in the brain after the the depression has been going on for a while. I think the chemical imbalance can be re-balanced without the drug, not that that is the best way to go about it. These are just thoughts I'm having about it. They're not based on anything. So what about dealing with the depression directly, through the mind? I like the idea of doing that without using any positive thoughts or images. In depression, don't the negative thoughts gain strength and form a blockage, a pattern, a solidified circuit? Take the thought of considering oneself a social retard. That can become hardened into a recurring patronage that we pay to ourselves, with it's own accompanying mental penalty or painful feelings of woundedness and hurt. It can become a second sight, an attitude that we usually look through and consider normal for us. It's us. So, what if we become very aware that that's what's going on. That that's the dynamic at work. Then what? Then it's a matter of staying power. Can we stay with the pain while the pain acts on us. Can we stay with it while we get to know it---while we get to know what happens when---what thoughts flow from which attitudes and from which moments in the day, from which situations. Can we develop a listening sensitivity that has the quickness that's as quick as the attitudes are? Are we as quick as our attitudes? Do we feel them happen when they shift and foreshadow? How close are we getting to the real messiness of it? How much vigor and certainty and conceit it has. How difficult it is to watch each maneuver. Attending to these maneuvers brings about something that is what we experience all too rarely in our lives. It deepens our awareness into the precursors of our attitudes and habits. We allow ourselves, through this deepening attention, to make contact with the energies in life that have to do with health and change and balance. These are just thoughts I'm having, along with everyone else's thoughts. Where do our thoughts go next? As the conversation turns.

Certain depressions for me are situational. And when I remove myself from the situation (or even look at it differently) I return from the black hole through which I felt I was sucked. Often times I return feeling refreshed, renewed and with a much brighter perspective on life in general but especially my life. But some people are unable to climb out of a depression by ridding themselves of a particular problem. And then they sink deeper. I believe a chemical imbalance can certainly take place during those times and what was once a simple case of the blues can metastisize into a clinical depression. Medication doesn't work for everyone but I also believe that, in some cases, it is quite nearly the placebo effect. If we are told by someone we trust that if we swallow a pill twice a day and it will make us feel be ter, sometimes the power of the mind can truly cause that to happen. I am certainly one of those people who benefits from the placebo effect. When I take vitamins, I feel healthier, when I don't I lapse into a borderline hypochondriac state. Drinking orange juice and echinecea makes the world right for me and I really think 75% of it is in my mind! The mind is so powerful. In a positive way and of course in a negative way. There are those whose depression seems to seep into them from no identifiable source. Or at least no source that the general populus views as deserving of such a depression. That is the power of the mind. I've never been on antidepressants but I've watched others take them religiously and swear by them. I don't believe pills have more power over a body than the mind but they seem to provide a catalyst for getting back on track that I find very interesting. Perhaps they do jump start a chemical reaction in the brain. Perhaps they do not. Either way SOMETHING takes place that inevitably leads to finding the light at the end of a long dark tunnel.

And as a side note. I don't believe I can ever remain centered continuously. Falling off track, going deep and rummaging around in the inside helps remember what 'balanced' is. Anyone else feel like they have to lose touch with their ki occasionally to remember where it is?

(does anyone else feel like I am babbling uncontrolably?)

some medication is overused (i.e., prozac) as the cure-all for your worries. this is harmful to the many who benefit from just having someone to talk to and knowing they're not alone. they even prescribe it to kids who get down. it seems like all anyone wants to do is medicate and suppress. that's what i like about my meds. i still feel everything. i still cry, get down, panic. but the episodes are shorter and don't occur as often. i don't think that everyone has a chemical imbalance but for those that do, meds is what helps replace the chemical that is no longer being used. it's very complicated, to me. the thing that gives everyone a skewed perception is that nowadays, chemical imbalances are blamed for everything. kinda like if you kill someone while PMSing, it's ok. just like everything else, it gets genericized--like mickey mouse and dolphins and angels. everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon of the trends going on in their time--i.e., alternative lifestyles. it seems people use these trends as an excuse. i don't think anyone would tell a diabetic that their insulin is a placebo. not jumping on you stacey. i think that you brought up a valid point as to the general populace. talking about it helps to bring understanding to something that once was hush-hush. (and i know this goes for alternative lifestyles).

Is there a difference between wanting to feel better and wanting to understand how we got depressed? Maybe if we try to feel better and succeed, we leave ourselves more open to getting depressed again. Whereas if we understand how depression operates, we learn how to leave ourselves much less susceptible to being depressed, perhaps? But understanding something like depression probably couldn't happen through any strategy or tactic, I'm guessing (cuz I sure don't know). Noticing how it happens is very simple because it just means doing one simple thing---noticing. And noticing is awkward and formidable and challenging. It's simple and extraordinarily difficult. The mind wants to believe, because that's so satisfying. It wants to believe in positive and it will believe in negative. It will believe in believing or believe in disbelieving. Both are believing, and they satisfy. But both are unhealthy because they're not factual. Their purpose is to satisfy.....satisfy the mind, what the mind thinks it wants. But to be factual, or psychologically healthy, is to be factual. Which means to notice what's there, what's taking place, actuality. So what does the mind do during depression? That would be the place to start. At the beginning. And keeping it simple. Because it's going to tough enough as it is, even when we keep it as simple as it is. That's only, of course, if a person chooses to go at it from this approach---which could be way wrong. If someone wanted to go at it from this approach, they could do it a zillion ways, maybe, I dunno, but this is the way that makes the most sense to me. But not for severe depression. Severe anything is a different story. A person needs to have enough bearing, enough stability and coherence to begin to be simple, and to notice what's actually taking place behind all the behavior and moodswings and despondency. It takes a great deal of clarity with sharp quickness, that whole kind of vital discerning energy. One needs to be somewhat limpid and soft and looking. There needs to be some tenderness and affection for what one is going through. We need to relate to ourselves and our feelings. We need to really be with them and pay close attention. Listen with a quiet listening that carries and glides and soars on in to the heart of our deepest concerns. Just exactly how do those deeper concerns really operate and maneuver around? I'm thinking that there is alotta powerplay going on, alotta forcing going on. And it's hit a wall. And then denial. It becomes quite demanding, this whole conflict, this whole inner conflict. Lotsa pride. Lotsa woundedness. Lotsa irrational reactions that are happening so far beneath our normal level of awareness, that we don't know the extent of it. We can't feel it cleanly and clearly.....we don't know where it really is. We would rather either feel better or get our way or have things be different. We don't bother with this subsurface stuff except in a worrying, useless kinda way. We don't understand, we don't know about understanding. So we don't understand where any of this is really going on and what actual specifics are. To learn about this is to learn what the mind is. The mind may just allow itself to be revealed if there is inquiry. It may be that the mind wants to understand itself. It may be that depression wants to be understood so it can relax into transformation. Change, health, balance. What do you say? What do you think about this? Let's examine it further together..... It could curve into and crest around physical attractiveness and all sorts of personal goods. Once again, I have no idea what I'm talking about, and it's all based on intangibles, impressionable impressions, splashing sounds and a wash of grazing light that the cows left behind in the pasture this afternoon.

Interesting question though... "difference between wanting to feel better and wanting to understand how we got depressed" I dunno. Both are pretty desperate quests involving much emotion and anxiety at times. Ideally after I discovered some of the 'triggers' to depression for me, I'd never fall victim to them again. But I do. I believe the mind can overcome diseases of the body and physiological boundries but the mind overcoming itself, healing itself, preventing itself from going astray... I dunno. (babbling again, to be sure!)

no you're not, stacey--interesting theories....i think the mind is more powerful than what anyone has ever imagined. to think of all the intricacies it's capable of. of course the mind can heal itself, but will we let it? the brain is a powerful organ and it has the ability to heal, but it cannot unless the mind tells it to. you know what i mean? you have to let go of your fear, have to believe....i don't know too much about the idiosyncracies (spelling???) of the mind and brain so i, too, appear to be babbling!

wolf, I guess that makes us babble-licious --- a higher form of physical attractiveness by anyone's standards!

I would have to concur on the whole babble-licious thingy...

yup!

LOL!!

Sonja here: What does that mean?

Me again. Does one say goodnight or goodbye or something when one goes away again? I'm going now - Ri�tte and I are going to drop water bombs tonight....that ought to cheer her up.

LOL means laughing out loud (i used to think it meant loser on line). sometimes we say bye, but mostly, we just take off! y'all have fun.....

the nice thing about this form of communication is that is it free of the constraints of time. it is just one long conversation after another. so unless you plan on being away for a long time (and worrying some of us half to death!) then there is no need to say ciao.

Sonja here: Got it. I'll spank her for you. But in her defence I must say that she doesn't usually do this. I did, however make her promise to come later today - hopefully she will explain herself to you all.

she does not have to explain herself unless she wants to. i was worried because she did not show up and now i am worried about her current state of depression. i just want her to realize that a lot of people over here care about her and are standing by to help.

I think we've all grown to love her.

foolishly

Defenitely! I'll just stop loving you now, okay? Did you see your background is contagious?

no, why?

Are you being sarcastic with me, baby girl?? Or are you really too stooopid to notice that this is your background?

This is NOT my background!

GIRL, I swear to God, every time I log in here, this conference has your art background.

Really? That's strange. You really ARE bewitching my computer.

We have a background issue here, and I can't even see it cause I'm telnetting in right now. Exactly what does this background have to induces such contentiousness?

WELL: It seems that when I log in, Philosophy has the same background as Ri�tte's art conference, and when Ri�tte logs in, it has another background. Interesting, isn't it?

And Terry, I'm in both backgrounds doing things like balcony diving and moshing and mushing (with my young huskies in northern Canada)---there's some really good animation going on here, I mean you can really tell it's me, and I sound like me even when I do

Wait a sec....let me fetch my 3-D glasses. WOW!

wowie zowie you are really groovy (got my 3-D glasses on, too, and there you are, now I can make you out---you're riding a cab through the Australian outback...of course that's Samuel Jackson, the cabbie, driving)

LOL!

Yes or no question: Do you find others more attractive with 3-D glasses on?

Qualification to aforementioned Yes or no question: ... that is when the other person is wearing 3-D glasses.

Only when I'm looking in an electron microscope and that person is standing in the background, behind and slightly to the left of a friendly virus. It's pretty exciting though when we both take off our 3-D glasses, then put 'em back on, in that situation.

that was part of the whole goofy thing, Terry... some confs sometimes use other confs rc files... sometimes they even use commented-out lines of html, as well...

I like looking at myself in the mirror with 3-D glasses on. I've always wanted to be green.

i think we all look like dorks but that's what makes it so much fun. i don't think anyone's feelings are going to be hurt because someone laughs when you wear 3d glasses. i, on the other hand, look perfectly lovely in them (or so i've been told by others wearing them)

You do! *oink oink*

what can i say *heehee*

I didn't get one single YES or NO. I only got conditional statements. C'mon lay it out there guys!

Honestly, when I put on 3-d glasses, everybody looks good. That is because I can see about 5 feet without my prescription glasses and then everything goes fuzzy. One fuzzy blob looks just as good as another.

But if I say yes or no, I feel like I'm giving into an over-generalization, and guess what---I'm prejudiced against over-generalizing. Because over-generalizing seems to come out of a prejudice. Which is like saying I'm prejudiced against prejudice. Which seems like I'm saying I'm prejudiced against myself..... since it means that I'm being prejudiced, and since I'm saying that prejudice is what I'm prejudiced against. Self-contradiction there. Which feels like an inner conflict. It would be one of many (inner conflicts). Therefore, Stacey, to answer your question: No, people don't look more attractive when they put 3-D glasses on. That's pretty non-conditional and laid out there. Ow. That really hurt. Can I change my answer now? Can I change the question?

Let the answer stand. Change the question...

Definitely, let's play Jeopardy!!

I'll take Pretentious Food for a thousand, Alex!

*laugh* gotta hate is when you're prejudice against yourself! and gotta love it when the remainder of the peanut gallery changes the subject so efficiently... all of this makes you all very physically attractive in a text based platform!

you always say the sexiest things...*blush*

Yes...�blush�.

this does make for an interesting place to be with everyone blushing different colors.

Yeah! I blush in blue on the net - blue's my favourite colour, so it's not quite such a pain when it happens here.

Red is my favorite color, a real coincidence, considering that my birthstone is a ruby. anyway I like the color combination of electric blue and black. I also like red and black.

Yes, I like those too. I like pure, bright colours, no pastels, because when you put them all together, it's like looking into a caleidoscope.

I agree, With the exception of black, and white, which I use to set the colors off. I like really vibrant colors, like the florescent shades of pink, orange, green, purple, blue and of course, I like just about any shade of red

Exactly. Oh, DAMN! Please don't tell me you're an artist - I like you too much already.

check it out! my attempt to motivate myself not to overeat during the upcoming holidays! http://www.spring.net/~ratthing/fatray.htm

whatever it takes, Ray! and, good luck... if it helps, you may e-mail all leftovers to me at kitchen_manager@juno.com

WOW, Ray!!! It really is amazing - and you know I don't do the flattering thing. You look totally different! MEGA ATTRACTIVE too!

thanks! I in dallas right now at my father in law's home, typing this on his WebTV! i hope all of you have had a wonderful thanksgiving as i have.

Yes, so do I. We don't celebrate thanksgiving over here - the Swiss are allergic to holidays - but I hope you all had a great time.