Hey! Some of my best friends are machines! Then again, some of my not-so-best human friends behave a lot like xerox machines.

, the history of this conference has been that it is often difficult to keep topics on topic. i saw no hand-slapping occuring above, and the frivolity was pretty much par for the course here. thats not to say we can't have very serious conversations here, because we can. barry and everyone else is most welcome to expound upon, describe, and defend their beliefs as much as they wish. others are most welcome to participate in these debates or not. i would also encourage anyone to start a new topic of their choosing if need be! if you are not sure how to do that, email me at ratthing@ratthing.com and i'll gladly do it for you.

Wow...a ratthing domain. I'm seriously impressed.

With a PhD in this field, you too could have one, dear!

No disrepect intended to Dr. Lopez, that doesn't impress me as much as one's own virtual domain. I've met PhDs who are brilliant and PhDs who had parents who paid to keep them in school forever because they knew the poor fools couldn't make it in the real world. One thing a PhD must be, though, is persistent, because that much schooling doesn't come easy, no matter who pays. I'm still a few months away from my MEd, and although I've been accepted into a doctoral program, it's going to have to wait unti I'm less monetarily indebted. I'm just overwhelmed trying to pay the bills I already have and can't quit my job.

John, I am prouder of you at this moment than I have ever been before. You really are going to use that mind of your to its best ability. You don't have to tell me about PhD's of various sorts, as you know. I had one of my very own and he is now in another state. Ratthing is someone for whom I have the greatest respect...there is nothing too insignificant for him to tackle for you or to explain for you (me, actually.) I know that is the sort you will be, also. The rest should be confined to the stac s of libraries where they can lead sterile lives...but enough of that. Keep at it...if you need a cheer leader, I am not very far away...always!

BARRY, this time I agree again! I'd rather sleep with xerox machine than with a human who acts like one. John and Ray both have degrees in Philosophy?? If you do, can you answer this: Is philosophy interesting to study? Do you have any idea about the curriculum that is usually followed? TRying to make my mind up about next year, can't decide between 20th century history and 20th century ARt history, so I'm thinking of doing neither, but Philosophy rather. How useful is that in career terms? Not very, I would imagine. Or am I wrong??

PhDs can be in any field. I don't know what Ray's is in. In that sense, the philosophy in Doctor of Philosophy means "love of learning," it's original Greek meaning (philo = love, sophia = learning). My bachelor's degree is in English and the masters in education I should have this May is in curriculum instruction. A bachelor's degree in philosophy is a good gateway degree into law school, but is pretty worthless by itself as a career vehicle. Philosophy teaches you how to think both in logical terms and "outside the box" (you already know how to paint "outside the box" which requires original thought). These skills are extremely valuable to lawyers, though. History degrees are excellent in that you learn to do research before you go to graduate school.

what john said. ;) my PhD is in experimental psychology.

Mine is in Systems Theory and Operations Research.

Acronym STOR? Both yours and Ray's fields sound fascinating! Riette can answer some of your curriculum questions later (after I get home from work). I considered a philosophy major, so I have done some personal research there.

Thanks for all the advice from all of you. It is very useful indeed. I really think I might end up going for philosophy. I am studying, because if I end up staying here, I'd want a PhD at the end of it; what you said was especially good, John, because I've always thought that, should we ever end up in an english speaking country, I'd want to study law. A good friend of mine (you know, the one guy with whom I went to see Austin Powers!!) is a barrister, and I always ask him loads of questions about t e job - it sounds truly exciting. I think I should mail him as well, because it's getting urgent. Closing date for signing up was on the 7th already, so I'd better get a move on soon. I just think it's going to be no use studying art OR art history if I'm just going to regret not having studied the other all year!! Decisions, decisions! I just really don't want to be a painter for the rest of my life - there's GOT to be a USEFUL career just waiting for me to achieve it somewhere.

If you want it--go for it!

Philosophy has both Eastern (Asian) and Western (European) components. You study the theories of the great thinkers like Aristotle, Kant, Mill, Lao-Tzu, Confucius...both secular and also religious philosophers. Some of the latter in the Western tradition include Kierkegaard, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ignatius Loyola, C.S. Lewis (yes, the same one)...Eastern include Siddhartha Guarama (Buddha), Confucius...there's the categorical imperative (Kant), utilitarianism (Bentham, Mill), natural law (Aquinas), Zen (imagine the sound of one hand clapping). It can hurt your head, but you can think in ways you never imagined. I took a course in Social Ethics from a Harvard PhD named Barry Curtis. It changed my life, I believe, for the better. There's also Philosophy of Law for future barristers (I loved it), Philosophy of Education (necessary in my job).

Riette, to answer your question from post 100: No. I don't treat my friends "like machines" -- and when I read again what I'd written in post 99, and the questions I asked, it didn't seem that I had done that here, either, where I know no one except Barry. I'm a newcomer here and I doubt I'll be sticking around. Forgive me, please, if I stepped out of bounds.

Jakob Bronowski said of our species: "If we are any kind of machine at all, we are learning machines." When someone suggested to Philosopher/Logician Raymond Smullyan the possibility that humans were technically a kind of machine, he remarked, "Wow! I never realized machines could be so marvelous!"

Moonbeam...if you don't stick around, make sure it's because you're dissatisfied overall with the quality of conversation and debate here, not because you took offense to something an individual said. Ree and I have already had several (minor) cyberspace shouting matches, but I've found her quick to forgive if I was the one who offended. She can get her hackles up (as can we all from time to time) but if you believe you're right, stick to your guns. As Ray said, there's room for all kinds of differing oints of view and if you feel we're off topic, but onto something that merits further discussioon, contact him and he will set up a new topic. Barry, love the quotes. We are marvelous thinking machines, but terrible data retrieval units! Too bad, in scholastic settings, we are often graded on our ability to retrieve data, not on the originality and merit of our thoughts. Philosophy is one of the few disciplines where that mold can be consistently broken.

Thanks, John. Riette took offense at what *I* said, not the other way around. She asked me in a tone I "heard" as rude if I treated my friends like machines. I was trying to make amends for unintentionally offending her. Now, I'm inordinately fond of several machines in my life -- notably this computer that connects me to other interesting minds, and the water heater in my basement that delivers hot blessings to my FM-tightened body -- but I don't think I could fall in love with a machine, whereas I can and do with friends.

We are a strange, eclectic community of individuals and--speaking for myself here--sometimes perhaps, forgetting social skills during social intercourse. I am also inordinately fond of several machines in my life as well. But I agree with you that we should use things and love people. ;)

Moonbeam, I was pi$$ed off, because your response was unfair to MY good friend here - Stacey. Ask anyone here, and they'll tell you she is NOT the kind of person to slap people around; her teasing is always always harmless. If you had taken the time to get to know us better BEFORE criticising, you would have known that. I asked whether you treated your friends like machines, because your response gave me the feeling that you prefer for people never to play out of balance. So, that's my side. I'm not interested in an apology, and neither will I apologize. I'd rather find out about making friends now. Do you want to? Where do you live? What do you do? And oh, I really liked that thing you wrote in 'My Day's Philosophy' - you know, about blocks. What blocks you up?

ree, i'd definitely go for as much education as you can. being in school for such a long time was not fun, but the benefits for me have been worth it. if i'd a had my druthers, i'd have gotten a PhD in philosophy. but there are no jobs in that field, so i went for experimental psych. turned out there were no jobs there either, so now i'm a management consultant!!!

Stick around moonbeam, don't go away!

Thanks, Terry. Forget it, Riette. I'm not much interested in your "friendship" if you can't give or accept apologies for unintentional missteps. Stacey, if my comment about a "hand slap" offended you, I am sorry.

*sigh* Here is my post which caused so much turmoil: Topic 34 of 35 [philosophy]: How do you forgive? Response 82 of 123: Stacey Vura (stacey) * Wed, Sep 8, 1999 (11:53) * 3 lines sorry... the question wasn't really legit... I was just making some passive comment on how we had again strayed from topic! I do have an opinion of forgiveness (and I think I posted some of it before) but too heavy for me right now! You got irritated when you thought I was 'hand slap'ing Barry I wasn't. I was doing EXACTLY what I said..."making some passive comment on how we had again strayed from topic" We do that. Ree-head got irritated when she thought you were bad mouthing me... (*grin* Brandon will be afraid of you if he and I get in another fight!) And now I'll go ahead and say Chill Out. This community has always had discord and has always still been a source of harmony for me. I do HATE overgeneralizations and I HATE people talking about other people badly. Please don't speak about someone you do not know well in such negative terms. Riette is truly capable of giving apologies and accepting them. I've witnessed it. If you choose not to get to know her better that is truly your business and I have no issue with that. However, please don't throw in a verbal jab to expound on your feelings. They're not necessary and they are rude. Your posts have been a welcome addition to this topic and filled with insight. As John said, if you choose to leave I hope it's for reasons other than discord between posters and misunderstandings over posts.

Moonbeam, I said I wanted no apology, and wasn't going to apologize, because I thought we had each explained WHY we were pi$$ed off, and that was enough. I don't want you to have to say, 'Gee, Ri�tte, I'm SOOO sorry', and I don't feel like saying, 'GEE, Moonbeam, I'm SOOO sorry.' What for? I'm not going to apologize for defending STacey, and I don't expect you to apologize for anything either. I just want to stop being tight-ar$ed about things, and get on with it.

* sighing right back atcha* You said: "Riette is truly capable of giving apologies and accepting them. I've witnessed it." She said to me (don't take my word, go back and look) -- that she was not interested in giving or accepting apologies. Was *that* not rude in your book, Stacey? Or am I just so much older than you that it's only rude in mine, right after I'd offered her an apology? I feel I've taken more than one verbal jab in this topic while attempting to make amends for an unintended elbow of my own. Hey, it's a topic about forgiveness. I asked for it and was told it wasn't forthcoming, and besides that I was out of place for opening my mouth.

She said she wasn't interested... you said she "can't give or accept apologies for unintentional missteps." I got upset at the semantics... another misunderstanding I'm sure. Her comment didn't seem rude to me because I interpreted it the way she explained above... that the explanation itself would be enough to end a disagreement over a misunderstanding. No groveling necessary on either side. yes, this is a forgiveness topic... I forgive you all! *grin*

oh and... what does age have to do with perception of rudeness??

Gentle Reader, You may be right. Age may have absolutely nothing to do with one's perception of rudeness. To find out more about that, if you're interested, you might want to ask someone over 50 (like me, for instance, or Miss Manners if you'd rather) whether she thinks the world is a ruder, less civil place than it was in her youth. In my youth, there was no need to have university students sign a "civility contract" when they enrolled for classes. At the university where I have taught for 12 years, however, that is now a requirement. Students seem not to know instinctively that certain behaviors are rude or impolite, or that they have an obligation to treat each other and the professor with a modicum of respect. (The foregoing paragraph is simply an example of rudeness now and rudeness 30 years ago, not a subtle remark about anything that might have been perceived by anyone to have occurred in this topic, incidentally.) Groveling, by the way, was not then and is not now a necessity for apologizing. And apologies were not then and aren't now an indication that one is eating crow or takes back the intent of one's commentary. "I apologize" means simply that one is indeed sorry for having inadvertantly offended someone, not that one is sorry one expressed an opinion and is now reconsidering that opinion. The gracious response to someone's apology is to accept it. I accept yours, Stacey.

well thank you...

I must admit, this has made for some extremely engaging and enlightening reading.

Moonbeam, what is it that makes you take offense at things people say so quickly? First you were offended at my remark that the idea of forgiving Hitler was almost immoral in a sense, then at Stacey's teasing, then at my and Terry's teasing each other, then at my offering of friendship without apology, since I didn't think I had anything to apologize for. Hell, you seem to take offense at just about EVERYTHING every person here has said in the last few days. And if have to say your 'apology' to Stacey idn't sound like an apology to me at all. First giving a lecture on manners, then rounding it off with a little emotional blackmail? I think that's low, because it's rudeness under a layer of sugar. I don't know....somehow I get the feeling you have a real problem when people don't play it EXACTLY as you do or as you want them to. Has it ever occurred to you that when that happens, it is NOT because they are rude, but because they have minds of their own? Don't you think people can be friends without aving to exchange lectures about behaviour and making each other feel bad about the way they are all the time? Like just accepting people for what they are? Well, that's kind of how it functions around here. People are allowed to be what they are, and respected for it. Not every word people say have strings attached to them. Though, if that's the way you play it, then we'll have to respect that too. Just one thing: don't play headgames with me, because I do not take kindly to it.

You could say that, John, uh, last post for example. Could Ree possibly have had more caffeine that me this morning?

Gentle Riette, It appears you are reading more into my postings than I intend. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain what about my directness resembles "attached strings" in your book? From here, your words appear unnecessarily uncongenial, rather like kindling thrown upon the dying ashes of an accidental brushfire -- e.g., "Hell, you seem to take offense at just about EVERYTHING every person here has said in the last few days." I have no choice but to respect your right to be as rude as you like here, as you are apparently one of the playground managers, but please cease lecturing me about the definitions of a word for which you demonstrate so little regard.

No, I don't think I'm being unfair. And if I'm uncongenial it is because I don't like it when people act two-faced. If you are really as sweet-nature and well-mannered as you would like to think yourself, and as you lecture everyone else to be, you might have started off here with a 'Hi, everyone, I'm so and so ...' Instead you fall in by criticising people left and right, accusing them in an utterly unfair manner, then expect THEM to apologize; and when you DO bother to apologize to those you treat unfairly for doing so, it is in a manner that is half-hearted, patronizing and hypocritical. Frankly, I'd rather be truthfully rude than surface- friendly. The way you have acted here up to now had nothing to do with directness, you were merely being a prune with nothing better to do than talking AT rather than TO people. Other people come here to make friends; I just wonder what you are doing here.

And, by the way, stop adding adjectives to people names; it's irritating.

"Irritating" - Riette, you are priceless! Gotta remember that... Huh, some catch-up reading to do... Y'all havin' had fun?! Good! More soon (have to get some serious sleep first...).

Is the three-knockdown rule in effect for this bout?

That only applies for US citizens. (Neither the EC nor Switzerland would extradite residents on the matter in question.)

Gentle Rie...er, Reader, You might wish to acquaint yourself with the writings of another of my generation, Judith Martin ("Miss Manners"), author of numerous volumes of advice including one called "Common Courtesy": In which Miss Manners Solves the Problem that Baffled Mr. Jefferson Judith Martin �The lack of agreement about manners results in an anger- ridden, chaotic society, where each trivial act is interpreted as a revelation of the moral philosophy of the individual actor, who is left standing there naked in his mores. We must standardize American manners, not only to complete Mr. Jefferson�s unfortunately sidetracked project of developing a democratic etiquette, but to make order of the current chaos and to relieve people of the burden of developing and defending individual choices in the most common, everyday matters.�

Hi, Alexander! What have you been up to all these days? Does this mean the newest issue of Superstar is about to come out?? Nice to see you!

Miss Prune... catchy name... Miss Manners and her equally uptight sister Heloise never seemed much into forgiveness in my opinion. They both seemed quick to jump to conclusions and force their often antiquated beliefs onto others... Perhaps not squibbling over manners in favor of merely respecting each others tastes, opinions, sense of humor and feelings seems like a good bet... ... for all of us folk, regardless of how young we are... Hey Alexander... I bet you could up subscriptions by including a centerfold in your mag... how 'bout a rough and tumble South African Swiss Miss I know... *grin*

k....hi all. rambled through the above postings and it was entertaining, i must say. humans have that unique capability of being human and thus reacting as a human. so let's get on with the discussion. forgiveness: hmmmm....i've forgiven but that's not to say that everything was washed under the board. i don't know how to forget some of the bigger things that have impacted my life; however, to forget them would mean to wave them as having naught to do with my learning and overcoming. for me, i try to treat those misgivings as stepping stones. as opportunities for me to learn. it's not easy, and they don't appear as stepping stones for a long while after. ray, i had no idea you were really a PhD. that's my dream but don't ask me what i want it in (general studies??). actually, being a wolfie means that i am partial to my animal brothers and so my goal is to study animal behavior, emphasize in zoology, and research animal-human bonding. particularly wild animals, namely mammals. i don't know what species right now because so much has already been done with wolves and dolphins. suppose i should find a taper in australia or something and see what happens *gr n* oh, aviculture is also of great interest to me--raptors and parrot families.

Yes, it'll be out Sept 30th.- What I find hard to forgive is judging people by where they come from. Or because of their language. Or because of their more or less refined manners. I have personally made many unsavory experiences with perfectly ordinary and well-established US citizens again and again. Good people, well-mannered, the whole thing. - I have just had a phone call from deep in the US, where some more of this stuff came to my attention. And I thought, fifteen years later, something might have changed. Well, some of you may by now have noticed I'm a helpless naive and dreamer. I now understand why all this manner-stuff - yes, Nan, you were right about quoting that bit about AMERICAN manners - is so important. It is necessary in the USA, because the society there might not have a coherent set of manners per se. Courtesies, rudimentary forms of respect, manners. See, here, every three-year-old e.g. learns even - absurd and mundane, but symptomatic, perhaps - to eat with knife and fork. E.g. y'alls own E. Aron Presley was never able to do that, ate just with a fork till his death. But manners are one thing, means to an end another - here, the question is, what do I use these manners for? Or, rather, if I have no manners, or do not apply them... Or apply them unto others, but don't act accordingly myself. I'm sick of hearing the same things again and again, and I'm sick of repeating myself about crap. I realise that what Nan describes as manners are a necessity in a place like the US. I see that these are things very much implicit in daily life in Europe. Yes, I am damn mad right now - the Spring's own 300 pound gorilla on the loose, so to speak -, and I will explain when I've cooled off. I'm not mad at anything any of you posted, it's not at all related with you. Honestly. This is my life, my world, and it's just your country belongs to that (so this answers the occasional question about what kind of business of mine the USA are, anyways). Plus this topic came handy. So, bear with me, as I rattle my chains. When I feel more, huh, topical, I'll read all the back log and add some more perfectly useless mumblings to all the good stuff above. right now, I rather feel like jumping into a plane, and talking seriously to some folks... lucky them, me broke...

Compare Father Knows Best or the Donna Reed Show to Xena or Buffy. Times have changed and so has the culture. Civility (what there was of it in post-Holocaust middle America) has given way to a harshness that, to my mind, is utterly out of control in our culture. In the fifties, if someone walked down the street with a safety pin in their eyebrow, the cops would have been looking for some sadistic freak who was torturing adolescents. Nowadays, the torture takes the form of psychological warfare with verbal "smart bombs" that go straight to the Amygdala.

Columnist Rick Reilly in Sports Illustrated said that America has become "Wiseguy Nation." It's basically true. What passes for humor nowadays is really just mean-spirited sarcasm. A Texan, a New Yorker, and a Californian went together to a restaurant for dinner. After they were seated their waiter said, "Excuse me, gentlement, due to a shortage, no meat will be served tonight." The Texan asked, "What's a 'shortage'?" The Californian inquired, "What's 'meat'?" The New Yorker said, "Wait, just a minute, pal. What's 'excuse me, gentlemen'?"

And the waiter said, "What's a one-minute wait?"

A third of the way to a three-minute egg?

I can eat an egg faster than that.

I can beat an egg faster than that.

I can LAY an egg faster than that!

You win!

ha-ha! Sometimes being a woman can be so darned handy!!

....Riette! Here's something for ya, from an old book I found "Das Reich der Hausfrau/The Housewifes Kingdom" Chapter "R�cksichtsvolles Verhalten/Considerate Behaviour": "Man gehe stets auf der rechten Seite des Gehweges, damit hemmungsloser Verkehr m�glich ist". Sorry, this joke can't be translatet into english)

Hmm... Which is the funny bit? I think that falls more or less under Swiss law!!

Hah, Isabel, you're most priceless, too! "Hemmungsloser Verkehr" - strong stuff! And Riette - ever the the most tactful polite understatement... So that's normal life in Switzerland?

Oh, yes....

The Swiss must be a happy people, then... (hemmungslos=unrestrained, Verkehr=traffic, also: intercourse) Ok, let's get back to english, and drop the silly german humor...! And while we're at it, let's get back to the topic... Y'all talk, I'll listen!

(thanks for the translation, Dear!)

Isabel, the Swiss are indeed very happy people - you hear it in their voices, because they speak in decrescendos. And have very small families ....

And trains that run on time.

Aye. Whether that is a good or a bad thing? I still can't tell.

At least they are predictable. Here, everything is so laid back that it runs on Hawaiian time...which translates as bye'n'bye...If you want a local to be on time you tell him to be there a half hour prior to when you want him to show up.

And if he's still late, you forgive him? ;)

Oh, indeed we do, or we would not have invited him in the first place. It like loving someone enough to forgive them just about anything, and trying to understand all things, even if we cannot forgive right away. Love makes things so much easier on the one hand and so much more complex on the other. But, my willingness to forgive is first and foremost when I love deeply.

Barry, Riette, I see that unrestrained intercourse makes the trains arrive on time, but wouldn't uninhibitedly trafficking each other lead to larger families? If you forgive my question...

I forgive you... (does that count? ME forgiving you when you asked the question of Barry and Ree-head??? Hmmm... if not, will you please forgive me for being too bold and assuming?!) *chuckle*

But, my willingness to forgive is first and foremost when I love deeply. Mine too, Marcia. Mine too.

I'm not that kind of an engineer.

Oh, but you would not need to be that kind of engineer, since the Swiss regard the highest level of 'unrestrained intercourse' as staying out of each other's way without actually having to say: 'Get outta my way!' THAT kind of intercourse has nothing to do with it.

Ah. Precision choreography. Alas, I am not a graceful dancer. I even step on my own toes.

Ha-ha! I know what THAT's like! We should go dancing some time - then I can step on your toes as well!

;=}

Stacey, if this keeps up, you could make a hobby out of forgiving me!

my pleasure!

I'll wear my best pair of steel-tips shoes.

ha-ha! You'll need 'em too, 'cos Mum's food was good last time I visited, so if I land on that toe of yours, you're done for!

I think I'll sit this one out. :)

It just might make you forget the aching teeth...!

"I really don't mind it you sit this one out, M

YAPP SUCKS! As I was trying to say when I was so rudely interrupted without even hitting the "submit" button: "I really don't mind if you sit this one out, My voice is a whisper, your deafness a shout, I may make you sweat, but I can't make you think, Your sperm's in the gutter, your love's in the sink." --Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) "Thick as a Brick"

Please pass the Drano...

What's Drano?? Sounds like a cross between a dragon and a dino.

gotten that bad, has it...?

Drano is a granular drain cleaner which will dissolve you, the clog and anything that might be obstructing your drain. Very serious stuff!

actually... it will kill you! (i know, Stacey's a buzz killer, Stacey's a buzz killer) *grin*

ha-ha! However did we arrive at this killer bug thang????

Last night I went to a talk at a Montessori school by a leading consultant in Montessori education. He told an anecdote about one boy who seemed disinterested in anything. The Montessori teacher finally contacted the parents to find out what interests the boy had. They told the teacher he was interested in waste and waste management. Garbage trucks held him in thrall. We live in a waste culture. We produce so much waste, it clogs our waste handling systems. Drano is to sinks as antacids are to stomachs. America now has the highest prison incarceration rate of any country in the world. One American in 135 is now in prison. We are disposing of people the way we dispose of landfill. We're gonna need a better waste management system in this country. Mebbe we should look into gas chambers. They worked for Hitler. We'll be needing them soon, to keep up with the human waste our culture produces.

There are more black males aged 20-29 in prison in the US than in college. If we got into the business of gassing in the US, blacks and Hispanics would become what Jews were to Hitler. One difference, though. It would definitely start a race war, because the large black and Hispanic "underclasses" in the US, unlike European Jews, who were often middle-class and professional, are heavily armed and will choose to fight instead of hiding. Inner-city police often prefer to let gang wars play themselves ou instead of intervening or trying to stop them. They cynically refer to the phenomenon as the "self-cleaning oven." The Russian immigrant underclass and gang culture is also a growing phenomenon, especially in New York and Chicago. I've always found it ironic how the marginalized and disenfranchised in our society would burn down their own neighborhoods in riots. The last big example was South Central L.A. after the "Rodney King" verdict. If the rioters--many of whom who were just their to loot--were collectively rioting for principle, they would be more effective if they were to storm Beverly Hills and Bel Air.

Gawd, I used "their" when I meant "there." It seems I'm learning more from my students than they are from me...not good.

"Mebbe we should look into gas chambers. They worked for Hitler." Barry, that's wrong. They caused him problems. What worked for him was the ovens, in which all evidendence vanished. Glad to have been of help.

The most fascinating thing about history is that people don't learn from it.

Maybe they do, but in the opposite way....

After NATO demonstrated to the world the efficacy of taking out a nation's techno-infrastructure, I imagine that the next time the underclass feel like rioting, they will take a page from NATO and take down some power substations, communication towers, or highway bridges. That's the new model for warfare. Don't spill blood. Spill transformer oil.

That's a better model for international warfare or terrorism. If you are looking to make a statement to America's elite, they can replace transformer oil. The only things they have that are irreplaceable are their lives.

But it is never the elite who have to worry about their irriplaceable lives, is it?

and then who's left to forgive them?? (... getting myself in trouble again cause I just can't help it!) *grin* and no Ree-head... the elite seem quite protected from it all. Of course now in America, you (general you) should be more concerned about going to church or school or daycare or any other random formerly safe haven where someone is bound to come in a shoot the place up...

Who NEEDS forgiveness when you get to run society? Stacey, why do you think this strange phenomena of shooting in public places is occurring so frequently in a place like America? Why are the kids over there so violent?

Maybe they aren't more violent then elsewhere, but they get guns more easily...