A one week census of Cafe Utne conferences (with private conferences deleted), listed in order of the number of individual posters: Listed in order of number of individual posters: Conference Topics Posts | Visits PgHits Users Reads Users PostsUsers Nook 188 130004 | 2781 2560 189 12751 189 1471 117 Literature 288 47356 | 1671 1619 217 4342 188 445 96 Currents 446 87389 | 2104 2249 176 5564 170 607 78 Relationships 221 56323 | 1477 1499 180 7207 166 621 62 BodyMind 353 65712 | 831 817 183 2002 162 178 55 Spirit 269 48371 | 827 794 138 2906 114 251 53 Absurd 272 89623 | 806 852 103 3966 91 799 50 Sex 233 50762 | 1054 1050 205 3928 187 441 46 Society 248 31722 | 931 927 106 1860 94 263 42 WomenOnly 157 76245 | 1792 1798 56 6639 57 743 42 Food 101 17503 | 904 909 95 3399 87 316 42 Music 233 29667 | 495 376 134 970 113 102 39 Culture 39 2315 | 774 792 115 1841 91 185 36 GenX 257 130968 | 1926 2344 82 7475 96 1093 36 Film 223 34214 | 822 703 105 1464 84 204 35 Cities 251 13148 | 774 662 120 731 101 91 33 TV 69 5852 | 384 412 69 789 62 98 33 Reed 93 5921 | 647 1051 48 6607 57 704 32 Meta 83 19563 | 1054 1199 80 3970 80 298 31 Philosophy 144 23547 | 450 467 91 1045 79 122 31 Parenting 195 9749 | 436 436 75 1298 69 147 27 Games 45 9823 | 334 310 64 607 61 64 26 LifeJourney 74 11407 | 938 957 56 1967 54 270 25 Feedback 95 16707 | 675 703 79 1436 84 106 24 Arts 154 15876 | 436 431 107 1014 84 98 24 Cafe_Welcome 9 1774 | 693 710 262 530 120 43 24 Media 89 5553 | 481 493 61 1177 66 161 24 Practice 16 278 | 170 134 75 182 53 32 23 Macintosh 78 5428 | 337 287 45 730 41 71 22 Nature 159 23066 | 431 440 54 1036 47 126 20 Big_Sangha 19 2511 | 488 528 105 1208 116 98 20 Education 163 11251 | 295 289 84 484 63 73 19 Globe 80 8967 | 246 253 66 518 62 62 18 Humor 94 6083 | 332 307 94 655 93 51 17 Science 80 7139 | 161 167 50 349 37 34 15 WorkMoney 184 11304 | 344 342 77 528 73 23 15 Fun 119 20025 | 194 173 62 313 55 25 13 Sports 128 7821 | 172 170 30 234 25 33 12 SFBay 39 2848 | 144 143 27 218 24 44 12 Boomers 23 1526 | 188 191 57 269 45 15 11 Canada 92 6522 | 210 207 56 256 42 20 11 Internet 65 2908 | 185 191 41 337 34 47 11 EastCoast 73 3859 | 101 109 39 114 32 10 9 History 66 4002 | 170 170 46 334 32 30 8 PCs 20 746 | 114 115 29 173 25 23 8 InfoAge 74 6493 | 109 113 43 149 35 9 7 Travel 157 5214 | 139 125 71 156 52 6 5 University 55 2595 | 52 55 40 54 20 6 4 HelpMotet 25 1790 | 48 90 98 313 70 3 3 MenOnly 40 1696 | 20 21 13 53 12 5 3 Classifieds 21 100 | 83 69 42 112 35 2 2 CafeNews 20 441 | 227 234 147 109 92 0 0

hmmm...

Feedback.35.155: Bryan Higgins (bryan) Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:10:18 CDT (3 lines) I think it's safe to say that those who are still reading Barry's postings on the Well are taking his reports with several tons of salt (hi, Barry!). Feedback.35.156: Lorelei Kring (lorelei) Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:35:48 CDT (2 lines) Too bad for you, then. I don't remember ever seeing him post anything about you but praise anywhere. You're the Motet god.

Hi Bryan, Yah, I suppose some people are crying a river of tears at every posting of mine on the Well. I wish I could cry that easily.

Fill us in on all the background details, some folks are getting in on this in midstream and may be a bit perplexed. You've got to do the update thing here, if possible.

It's kind of a long story. Cafe Utne does not have a social contract. Rather the site managers ask for civility without either defining it or modeling it. There are no express rules, but if you break one, the hosts can take action to damage the standing of whomever they are peeved at. It's an erratic system, lacking in fairness or due process. That tends to generate a lot of thrash, much of which ends up in their Meta Conference. A few of us took exception to this model and said so. Turns out that was a violation of another unwritten rule. The preferred method on Cafe Utne to handle such cases is to declare open season on those who ask too many disturbing questions. Copious verbal abuse is the weapon of choice. The problem arises when that tactic fails. You end up with a mob engaged in a feeding frenzy, but the victim doesn't become consumed. Kind of like the metaphor of the burning bush. And what's left is an embarrassing trail of authorized and sanctioned incivility. Rather than deal with the prevailing culture of incivility, the managers did the expedient thing. They destroyed the evidence and adopted the scapegoat model, first invented by the Babylonians, and widely used ever since. The idea, of course, is to blame the scapegoat for all the nonsense, and banish it to the wilderness. Only it didn't work too well this time. Well, that's not too surprising. It hasn't worked too well since Pontius Pilate tried it one too many times a coupla thousand years ago. The details of the scapegoat model can be found in the scholarship of Rene Girard of Stanford University. Anyway, my case isn't all that important, because it's merely illustrative of a recurring pattern. It's the pattern that matters. The only reason they're after me is because I took a snapshot of the episode and revealed the underlying pattern which is ubiquitous in our culture. It's the same pattern that turned up in the Columbine shootings in Colorado.

Yes, there is a very interesting story behind the fiat by clique that is rampant over at the cafe. Too bad you know. There are a few new members posting in Big Sangha right now, and saying that they are glad that there is a place like that because they identify with the Utne Reader. They will probably have moved on by Christmas because by then they will discovered that the place is not what it advertises itself to be.

If you follow the link in post 6 you will see a typical pattern of how taboo topics are disrupted so that it is unable to converse in them. The following people were the dominant posters in those topics. They are all hosts of the cafe. These are the people that set the example and demonstrate to others what happens when you mention subjects that they feel uncomfortable about. Others soon learn that this is what will happen to them if they don't also submit to the will of the hosts. hosts -------- digem kafzali booda jordan riot chiles dior

The link I was referring to in the previous post didn't take. I'll try again. embarrassing trail of authorized and sanctioned incivility Notice that Kai, the conference coordinator didn't step in to object to this. By his silence he has condoned this behavior. This is an obvious example, usually this is done much more subtley. Sometimes a reasonable conversation will occur but which is totally off topic. An example was a topic on affluenza (conspicuous consumption) which went on for hundreds of posts on everything but the subject and finally the few people that wished to talk about this stopped posting, at which point everybody else did as well. The obvious intent was to prevent discussion of this subject. A common response to this complaint is that if you don't like it you can leave. Which is what a lot of people land up doing. Usually they have already invested a few months or more before they realize that they have two options, either restrict your conversation to the trivial or leave. There are many people that come to the cafe because they relate to the articles in the Utne Reader and think the cafe is a place for people that relate to these articles, and a place where they can engage in collective action. Almost everything that is worth doing something about is too large for one person to do on their own. They see the cafe as a place where they can work together, where they can have the same effectiveness as if they were working for a corporation but with an activist agenda rather han a corporate agenda. Unfortunately anybody with this intention is soon driven out of the cafe. An interesting question is whether this type of behavior is approved of by the Utne Reader or whether they just don't know about it.

The parsimonious hypothesis is that they are oblivious. Do not attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by ignorance and obliviousness. Virtually everything can be explained by ignorance and obliviousness.

You do not consider ennui? Or is that included in one of the two?

Boredom? I'll have to think about that. Right after I take a little nap here in this lovely field of poppies. Wake me if it's starts snowing...

Boredom? I'll have to think about that. Right after I take a little nap here in this lovely field of poppies. Wake me if it starts snowing...

Yes...yes...but what is snow? I am in a lovely field of orchids drowsing beneath a plumeria tree and watching big white puffy clouds lazily playing with the sun dappling my meadow.

Snow is one of the ingredients in a future orchid or a future cloud or a future meadow.

Ah...Yes, I have seen it atop the mountains here. But, before the orchids get it, it is softened and gentled and warmed to just the correct temperatures. I have never seen snow on orchids...that must be rare, indeed!

Without notice, Utne is dropping Motet and moving to an as yet unannounced new system. Before the Motet archives vanish altogether, let's revisit some classic postings... Spirit.173 - Daimon Spirit.173.23: Phil (pbb) Sun, 01 Feb 1998 22:05:16 CST (3 lines) When I read Plato's _Apology_ several years ago, in which Socrates described his life, I got the impression that his daimon was an almost physical reaction to intellectual dishonesty. Spirit.173.24: Barry Kort (moulton) Sun, 01 Feb 1998 22:52:05 CST (5 lines) I frequently get a physical reaction to intellectual dishonesty. It's an adrenalin rush that signifies crisis, danger. But I only get it if the intellectual dishonesty is manifested by someone in power, someone capable of instantiating political change on the basis of bogus thinking. Spirit.173.25: Elizabeth Sekellick (lisa451) Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:51:05 CST (1 line) Which pretty much describes Congress, eh, what? Spirit.173.26: Barry Kort (moulton) Mon, 02 Feb 1998 12:45:24 CST (2 lines) Well, actually this week's episode was triggered by a couple of people right here in Cafe Utne. Dog-ear Bookmark Spirit.173.27: Phil (pbb) Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:46:23 CST (2 lines) The daimon might also be a trickster. It may manifest as your antagonist. Spirit.173.28: Barry Kort (moulton) Mon, 02 Feb 1998 17:22:54 CST (1 line) Yep. The Coyote and the RoadRunner. Meep meep! Spirit.173.29: scott (skot) Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:26:27 CST (26 lines) I think I missed that episode Barry. I do remember the one where the Coyote was chasing the RoadRunner, but then Tweety Bird came and asked why he was doing that. Seizing the oppurtunity, the Coyote devoured Tweety. Much to his surprise, *another* Tweety Bird appeared and told him that the first Tweety probably didn't appreciate. So he chased after that one, but it got away. Funny thing is, Tweety Birds starting springing up all over the place, about a dozen of them. This upset him, and he decided the Birds must be conspiring against him. At the same time, the birds were puzzled, some hurt, and some angry at the Coyote's recent deeds. The Coyote said, "My, you all are just tweeting and tweeting! I can't understand a word you are saying. Why do you hurt me so?" One of the Tweetys replied, "You have devoured our friend!" The Coyote said, "What's wrong with that? That's who I am. If you can't understand that, then you are living in a haze. Someday you may see things the way I do." One of the Tweetys responded, "But will you ever see things the way the bird you devoured did?" Unfortunately I missed the rest of the show...I guess how a myth unfolds all depends on perspective, doesn't it? Spirit.173.31: Barry Kort (moulton) Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:12:46 CST (45 lines) The one I remember is where Elmer Fudd caught Bugs Bunny chewing on a chocolate covered carrot and remonstrated him, saying "You can't eat chocolate covered carrots here! We're all on a diet because we all think we're too fat!" But Bugs just looked at Elmer, who was actually pretty skinny, and said, "Eh, What's up Doc?" and kept on eating his chocolate covered carrot. So Elmer aimed his shotgun at Bugs and fired a blast, whereupon Bugs said, "I won't fire at you if you won't fire at me." "No deal," said Elmer Fudd. So Bugs took out a Howitzer and blasted one at Elmer, which really startled the audience, because that wasn't the way Disney usually scripted this cartoon. Then Yosemite Sam, who had been watching from the wings, took out an ICBM and launched it at Bugs. Bugs caught the ICBM in a big rubber sheet and reflected it back at Yosemite Sam. After that, things really went to hell in a handbasket. Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam recruited a bunch of troops to launch a massive assault on Bugs. But their armaments kept bouncing back in their faces. And Bugs just kept on eating his carrot. Eventually Elmer Fudd, Yosemite Sam and the others decided this cartoon wasn't fun and they weren't really winning, even though they claimed they were, so they left to go start another cartoon somewhere else. Some of the audience said they enjoyed it, but the theater owner wasn't sure it was family entertainment. A few audience members stayed behind to see if Bugs was OK. They couldn't imagine he had survived the firestorm. But Bugs was fine. "You see, he said, the truth can sometimes be painful, but canards bounce off me harmlessly and reflect back to their owner." Whereupon Daffy Duck shows up and screams "Who you calling a Canard?!" Bugs hands Daffy a box of Suffering Succotash and quietly says "Peas be with you."

The new software platform at Utne is Well Engaged 3. The pages load slow, you can't read offline, difficult to navigate, if you accidently hit the back button you go off to mystery land and lose track of where you were, there are cookies galore and the thing is infested with bugs. Utne is trying to rush this through by Oct 5th which everybody says is not enough time. Interesting questions come up on why it takes years to come up with a written set of quidelines yet they can switch to a new system in five weeks. Too many bugs cropping up for them all to be account of configuration. The hosts are all upset because the decision to change software was made before they even found out about it. I guess they didn't like feeling like a lot of the patrons have felt for sometime now. All Utne can do is keep saying "don't worry it's going to be okay" which is an expression from past experience that is tantamont to "pick up the soap." One of the things that I feal real uneasy about is that they wish to join all of the alternate media together. Most of the databases that I have seen of WE are located in a single location discussions.wellengaged.com which means that Utne isn't buying/leasing a piece of software but a whole package deal. Plus all of these sites are going to be located on the same huge oracle database. The potential for datamining is scary, especially since this is alternative media, and I can't see where the economic ad antage is in the switch unless it's for that reason. This is going to be the biggest crisis that Utne has faced and I don't think the community will survive, though there will always be a new stream of sheep to waunder through the place and read the ads. The discussion opened today in conference Cafe_Move for any that are interested in checking it out.

Stand by for much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth.

Standing by.

Lots of thrash going down over there. Lots of questions, very few acceptable answers.

From what I've seen of the software it is going to promote very superficial conversations. You can't read offline, and if you try to go back to a previous page with the back button it refreshes on you so all you see is new posts. This means you either respond right away off the top of your head, or you keep a log book on your desk and write down where you want to go back to and respond. Not many people going to do the latter. But then again that's not much different than here at the Spring is it? I'm just so disapointed that Utne has turned out to be just another business. I can appreciate having to pay the rent and everything, but I always thought that alternative publications operated like nonprofits. They only wanted to make enough money to stay alive, and the only reason they wanted to stay alive was so they could provide opposition to the mainstream and/or provide alternatives to the mainstream. Becoming mainstream just seems like selling out. Remember that term? I had the impression when I first got there that Utne was going to use the cafe to provide some leadership and help coordinate an alternate movement. Nope, they discovered that there is profit to be made by soothing the guilt of boomers that have sold out. Wannabe activists that can't risk their jobs or lifestyles so they buy a magazine and prentend. Something I'd really like to see is Mother Jones running Motet. That crappy display one post at a time threaded system that I saw on their site was just so slow and painful that I couldn't tolerate it and from the looks of the little volume I wasn't the only one.

I hear Utneans are unhappy about the switch to Well Engaged instead of Motet and that Bryan Higgins is quite peeved about being left out of the decision to abandon his Moteet software. It sounds olke the Engaged people lowballed Utne to gain a competitive advantage over Motet. Conferencing software wars? I know Barry was kicked off Utne, and he's here making a contribution. I haven't been there for a while so I don't have any first hand observations. I'd like to hear from more Utne folks about their experiences and how they feel about this autocratic decision to change their interface. You know the old "if it ain't broke . . . " saying. I'm a firm beliver in that. Especially when it comes to some folks community. I hope folks here are happy with Yapp but if they wanted something better we'd go to it. But it would have to spring from the community, bottom up no top down.

I've left the Utne Cafe until we move to the new platform and then I'll go back and check it out and see if it will be any different than what I think it will be. I'm not going to spend any time and energy helping to make it work. My biggest complaint about the software is that it's structure discourages contemplative discussions. It promotes the shallow chat. This is probably good for the advertisers because I would imagine they would do better with impulse buyers than with people that think first. One of my complaints is that management started looking around at this last fall, which was the same time that the volunteer survey group started working. We put in a lot of time and grief on things that were made irrelevant and management watched us do it and didn't say a thing. It also looked like what most of the people were looking for wasn't something that was going to be achieved by a new piece of software. Many said please don't do anything that will slow down the software. I think this whole thing set back community building over in Utne. It will lose its sense of tradition and a lot of the old time members will move either move away or be lost in the maze. Small town community is being replaced with the transcience of the shopping mall.

What set back community building was the adoption of in loco parentis instead of crafting a social contract community. The mission statement was watered down and is now a joke. I dunno who snookered who in the decision to drop Motet in favor of WE 3.0, but I am predicting disaster, both technical and social. By the way, Nan was amused that my sworn enemies are cordially chatting it up with me over there, not realizing that I am posting under a pseudonym. But what's really funny is to watch Kai trying to put the best spin on a turn of events that occured at a level beyond his control. He's clearly unhappy about it, but can't say so. Loyalty is big deal with Kai. He hasn't been in corporate America long enough to learn that loyalty to the corporation is a recipe for betrayal. Here Bryan was unceremoniously chucked after years of helpful service, and Kai marches on saluting and defending the generals who backstabbed Bryan.

I cut back my Cafe participation drastically 15 months ago after Kai "de-hosted" me from Spirit, Philosophy and Media for no reason other than I was Barry's friend and cohort and, therefore, not to be trusted. Gotta run IRL -- will post more later.

If the software is paid for, and the data is stored on a cluster of pentiums that are also paid for, and if all the labour is volunteer, then how much does it cost to run a virtual community? I'm thinking just the cost of a T1 line, or are there other expenses that I don't know about?

It costs us about $600-800 a month and folks are starting to be generous with contributions. And we're making money on our "click throughs". Did you know if you click through on the visto link at http://www.spring.net that the spring makes $2.00. If enough community members do that we can make it. It's hard, but not impossible to have a self supporting community. We're heading in that direction. But I clearly believe in bottom up decision making as opposed to imposing something on the members for the sake of advertisers.

Thanks for that info Terry. I wasn't aware that you made that much from the click throughs; I'll read a few adds and help you out. I suppose that once they have your ID# or whatever that further click throughs by the same person don't make any revenue difference. How often do I have to click through to maximize the amount of money that the Spring gets? With rates like what you quoted even $10 a year from each member would go a long way towards making a community pay for itself. When the option of user pay came up at the other site they didn't say how much it cost to run the place but replied by asking if people would be willing to pay as much as for there ISP. Well, $15-20 a month would be a bit much but that much per year probably wouldn't be objectionable. A few people have even mentioned that they wouldn't mind paying over at the other site provid d that they felt that they had some kind of say in how the community was run. The general tone over there is that anybody that questions how the cafe is run is an ungrateful SOB. Utne is spending all this money, etc, and that entitles them to do whatever they want, and we should just be thankful that we are allowed to post there. If it's costing them that much then maybe the problem is with how the money is managed, as in it shouldn't be costing that much. I also suspect that they are making some money off of their ads, those annoying blinking ads. It appears to me, that the economic bottom line, is that they are getting very cheap advertising for their magazine. They could probably finance the cafe for a couple of decades for the cost of a single national TV ad.

Terry, could you please provide a basic break-out of where the $600-800 a month operating costs pay for here? Thanks.

$400 ddc.net for website hosting our servers $150 SW Bell for isdn connection $250 hardware/software costs (conservative) add occasional consulting fees and other misc. costs

Thanks! I'm wondering if the software costs you refer to are associated with a monthly charge to use YAPP, or if your license to use it was a one-time cost like it is with Motet.

I could run a Motet server on MuseNet for nothing more than the cost of the Motet license, which is $500. We've been running MuseNet for a decade now at essentially no cost. Our current fleet is mostly Sparc 2 machines. Motet runs fine on a Sparc 2.

It's none of my business because this move is all about business. I think they better be careful about ever mentioning the word "community" again because too many people will tell them to blow their ass. But if this was a community then the financial balance sheet should be open for view. Any money spent on the Lens shouldn't be counted in with the cost of running the cafe. IMHO The biggest expense would probably be Kai's salary and if they quit their parental style of management, and their control freak tendancies, out of the equation he wouldn't be required at all. I still think that the economic bottom line is that Utne is getting pretty cheap advertising for their magazine. And if they are not then it is because they are managing it poorly. I see no reason that the alternative community has to be sold out because of their poor management.

There is a glaring disconnect between the themes in the magazine and the cultural model of the Cafe, which follows a strict parental model, with Kai as the parent. I think that's the main reason there are so few academics left on Utne. Academics don't much care for oligarchies, Machiavellian control freaks, and algolagnic parent models.

Too bad, because Utne is a great alternative mag, and that's such a huge advantage in building a vc (having a widespread print vehicle). It's like Whole Foods being able to put their web communities url on all their grocery bags. I sometimes speculate about the Spring aligning with a print publication. But who?

I don't know what happened, but the feeling is gone and I don't think that I'll get it back. I've been in love with the cafe for a couple of years now and it is finally settling in that I was in love with my own projection and that it had no basis in reality. I don't know which is greater, my disapointment or my loss. Strange how you can lose something that you never had in the first place. I'm one of those people that think there is a battle for the net between those that want it to be a forum for communication and those that want it to be the ultimate home shopping channel. I am one of those fools that think that we are rapidly losing control of our world and that soon corporations will rule the world and we will all be unpaid employees. I also thought that the net and particularly forums like the cafe would serve as meeting places for those that wanted to have more of a say in how our world is developing and to excercise the democratic ideals. A place to counteract the atomization that makes each individual alone and powerless. A place where I could work with others on things that are just too big for any one individual. A place that would help me resist rather than accept the inevitable. I thought the purpose of alternative publications was to expose bullshit and provide important information that the mass media should be providing but isn't. I remember when investagative journalism like 60 Minutes used to cover significant issues like corrupt politicians and government scandal, but now it seems like the limit of their controversy is pointing out that there are dishonest auto mechanics. There used to be a time when the mass media showed at least some concern for the public welfare. So f the mass media won't take responsability then its up to the alternative media to take up the slack, and now I feel like they also have sold me down the river. I've spent a lot of time at the cafe because I was hoping to meet people and learn where they were coming from so that I would be better able to evaluate what they had to say. I was hoping that the people in the cafe would be a substitute for the talking heads on the TV, and be able to point out what was bullshit and what wasn't. It would take a lot of expensive people to provide this service, and the corporate sector sure isn't going to pay for it, but it could be done if we were doing it for ourselves and willing to do it for nothing. To me this just seemed like the logical next step in achieving the objectives of an alternative publication. I think that this is why I feel so betrayed. The salons were the last place on the net where people could come together and work as a group rather than being lone voices crying in the wilderness hoping their webpage would make a difference. Now all of the salons are coming under the control of the same business. Salon bought the Well, and they are both using Well Engaged, and now so is Utne. Even if they could get organized enough to go beyond insignificant chatter it would be simple enough to close the doors and shut it down. And then where wou d these people go. All of the alternative media is being bought out by the mainstream. What good does freedom of speech do if there is no place to speak. I've seen quite a few people in the cafe that also feel like this. They post passionately about significant things. I click on their bio and find out they have just been here for a few weeks. After a few months a don't see them anymore. I wonder where they go to, or if they just give up in disillusionment like myself. But for me the question remains, if the Utne Cafe isn't the type of place that I'm looking for then where do I go instead. I just can't believe that I am the only one that wants to help promote the alternative.

I had hoped to form an Orenda Community, but I found, much to my chagrin and dismay, that I could not do so on the Well, on Utne, at E-Minds, at Brainstorms, at Flowering City, or at Community Intelligence Labs. Evidently an Orenda Community is just too threatening an idea for most Web site managers. I find an occasional like-minded soul here and there, but so far I have failed to bring us all together to work towards the goals of Orenda. I felt that Motet was the best conferencing software for the job, and we actually had a decent conference going at Flowering City Forum at U-Mass, until the site manager found himself emotionally overloaded and shut everything down.

Ah, and don't forget there is an Orenda tribe still stumbling along on Yahoo, as well. I think perhaps the problem here on Spring is that the conference is private. Being public would bring a lot more visibility. (Were we private at Flowering Cities Forum? I can't remember...) I am inordinately fond of Motet, I admit. Can't be unbiased about it at all. For much of my cyberlife I've driven the equivalent of a Volkswagen on the info superhighway, and WellEngaged is a road hog that has crashed me enough times I'm wary of using it. Oh well. Moot now, at the Cafe.

A private conference can easily be converted to a public one, if that is your desire. If that's what the host(s) and participants desire, that is.

oh? really?

The way grasshoppers signal danger is by going silent.

Nan, listen to the man. He has something to say.

This topic is public btw I havn't linked to it, or brought it to anyones attention, but it is word readable from the Net (without registering) Though you might want to know. Hi Terry! (if you don't know who I am, just ask Barry) heh Or about anyone these days. Anyone want to talk about MetaMatters?

Or Utne for that matter?

All of the conferences but one are available using public rather than restricted in the URL. The only difference is in the public, one cannot post comments. Welcome to Spring. I will have to get out of Geo more and find out what Utne is all about before I can have an intelligent conversation about it with you. I do, rather, like This Virtual Community - mostly because it allowed me the ability to create Geo where I dwell

I was responding to: Topic 18 of 26 [vc]: Utne Cafe A private conference can easily be converted to a public one, if that is your desire. If that's what the host(s) and participants desire, that is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Was this not public before? Was it changed?

Lots of things changed when we changed servers. Perhaps its lack of activity caused its privacy to be overlooked. I think this was one of the provate conferences...

It should be I imagine. Some of the information posted here could cause problems on Utne for the people here. This page is also listed on Yahoo.

Then Terry should be notified. Shall I??? Or would you prefer to do so?

You please. I havn't talked to Terry in a loooong time. But the virtual kaka is hitting the fan again on Utne, and this is fuel for the flames.

OK, emailing him immediatlely - sorry for the inconvenience. Aloha!

Aloha!

FX, it is still here...

and with all that nothing has changed, unfortunately, here! Fx, all I can do is try to contact the Terry again. However, he might have to unlink it with whereever it is linked - if it indeed is. One topic cannot be made private. it has to have conference status to do that. Check with Barry to see if there is an Utne Cafe elsewhere which is private. I see no sign of it here even where I can go. Sorry this is causing so much distress.

Why's everybody saying "aloha?"

Aloha Jerry! Because I live in Hawaii. I started it and it is very contagious, I guess. Sorry!

No, I like it. :O) Just curious. But now I'm jealous, I live in Nebraska.

Nebraska has virutes surely. Like tornadoes. We have live a volcano erupting as we speak, new land being created, new topography, too. We also have more than our share of Earth Quakes, and an occasional tsunami. But, no snakes in Paradise. Lovely little secluded beaches from which you can watch the eruption and check the skies where the stars hang just out of reach... Aloha, Jerry! All one needs is the right person with which to share all of this beauty...

..you've got me dreaming..

I could tell you of this little secluded black sand beach... sky so clear that you can reach out and touch stars... Listen to the whales sleeping just off shore... Surging surf on the sand rhythmically subtle... Molten gold lava snaking its way to the sea on a background of black velvet...

It is a place to share with someone very special...*sigh*