"If I can find a place that has free private conferences would you be interesting in setting one up on this subject?" do you mean besides here at the Spring?

Ov, bring up the page here to List All Conferences and scroll all the way to the bottom of the list.

Well I've just checked into the Orenda conference and added it to my hotlist. Barry I think that if you want to recruit some specialists in the area of systems thinking it would be best to place it in a conference of its own. One that is dry and objective and without any connection to political motivations. Or we could talk about it here. This seems to be Barry's topic so I can't see why anybody would object to talking in here about things that are related to what you may do. One of the first questions is if there already is a conference somewhere that is talking about systems thinking. We would only be able to know this if it was a public conference because private conferences are by there nature secret. Then if there is a conference for this type of thing would it be able to participate or would it be an academic clique that is protective of its membership.

I may be the only person here with academic training in systems theory. There aren't very many of us.

We can set up a conference called systems if you need it.

It might be a worthwhile thing to do, Terry. The notion of systems theory and systems thinking is one that is still outside the public consciousness, but one that is worth organizing a conference around.

Ov and Terry thought this chat that Moulton and I participated in might interest you in reference to the above posts. http://chat.abcnews.go.com/chat/chat.dll?room=abc_BNW_cyber0806

See also this chat from NPR's Talk of the Nation: http://yourturn.npr.org/cgi-bin/WebX?13@^359575@.ee774c0 You may need to register to access it. If the above URL doesn't work, go to http://www.npr.org/yourturn/index.html#totn and click on the topic title: Learning Without Schools.

I came away from the discussion I posted above with a sense of dread. We cannot even create a world, on the human level, that functions by any measure of the imagination in a humane or healthy way and yet our egos lead us to believe we can design machines to be implanted in the brain to increase what? Our dysfunction? As I told Barry in another forum...throughout my life I have found myself railing at my creator for making me a thinking human being...but what really gets me is, that despite the fact that I have the ability to think I am not infallible nor have I yet met any human who was. If we are truly thinking beings, we come away from intelligent conversations with the realization, that in ten lifetimes we could not, by any stretch of the mind assimilate enough information to take into consideration all the variables necessary to address the the *key* issues.... that *might* bring about constructive social change...never-the-less identify what those *key* issue really are. Part of the problem lies in the fact that most humans tend to have tunnel vision. Over and over again I see peop e in their respective fields presenting their theory as the... be all, end all, solution to the world�s problems. My father once told me, that main dilemma we face, in trying to figure out which theories were correct, was that the person who wrote best...in a way that held your attention and was understandable...tended to get the most attention paid to his/her vision of the issue. Writing ability; however, had little to do with the validity of the premises made. The same principle goes with along with speaking ability. How many meeting have you been to where the most forceful and powerful speaker gets and holds the audience�s attention, regardless of how realistic their premise is. The end result is, I always end up with the same questions...with all this in mind how do we identify...*the solution*, and even if we were able to...how then do we identify a leadership that can implement workable solutions....without allowing the mentality of power-over to erode the process....the linear mentality that pervades society and keeps us bound in our separate realities (tunnel vision) so that we cannot see beyond the *expertise* that we individually bring to the table.

I read the transcript of the chat and had similar feelings to yours, Debra. So much bravado, so much posturing, so much trying to one-up each other with big words. So much effort to be the most noticed, the "most intelligent" poster. So little understanding or humanity or listening. Sorry. It's a rather dark day here in my heart and gut, which have (despite my Mensa Mind) always been the final arbiter when it comes to tough decisions.

(((((Moonbeam)))))))) Hey! read Tiffaney's (Danelle) first foray into the Muse. I wish you could have been here. It was her birthday so we stayed up late. In her desc she messed up and only posted f...this sent her into gales of laughter and pleas to not let it stand as f. I'm sure you can imagine the the things that as she put it, "small f" could stand for. She didn't say them, but the implications were there and evey time she thought about it, it brought new gales of laughter. Your world would not seem so dark if you could have shared this moment with us. A great part of my drive to find solutions comes from her bright spirit. (sigh)

Thinking is a learned behavior. Nor is it taught much in school. My complaint is not that we have the ability to learn how to think, but that we have this ferchachta Department of Horror Assessment that doesn't do a very good job of assessing true danger. And so when it makes an error by assessing danger when none is present, all hell breaks loose.

Here's another article, a book review on Salon, about the Cyborging of America.

And another article, from the NY Times, about Cog, an advanced robot under development in MIT AI Lab. Here's my favorite pull-quote: Despite the fact that he directs the world's largest artificial intelligence laboratory, Dr. [Rodney] Brooks is something of a maverick in the field. "Most of my colleagues here in the lab do very different things and have only contempt for my work," he said cheerfully.

"Just north of Santa Fe, the Tewa pueblo of San Ildefonso sits at the bottom of the plateau on which the laboratory city of Los Alamos stands. While the people of San Ildefonso carry out secret ceremonies in the kivas and dance to the rhythms of the seasons, the physicists of Los Alamos struggle with some of the deepest ideas of quantum theory, particle physics, and a new science called the physics of information, which seeks to understand the very source of pattern and order in the world." The above pull-quote is from a book review of Fire in the Mind by George Johnson, a former editor of the NY Times who now hosts the NYT Forum on Mysteries of the Universe. You can read the Preface Johnson's book online.

"Yet if Marshall McLuhan is right, and the medium is the message, then our bodies are our minds (and vice-versa). The body is the interface between the world of the self and the world of others -- remove that interface and you eliminate the pleasure and danger inherent in the unpredictable friction between these worlds." these words leaped out at me from the Cyborg review. just wanted to say AMEN, having learned this well in the last five years.

thanks for the link to the "fire of the mind" preface, barry. i grew up in that crazy place, you know. whenever i go back to los alamos i find myself pulled more and more by the truth and rootedness of the ancient, caring spirits, not the new, heedless and heart-free ones.

i'm leaving in a few minutes for new mexico -- will be on the road until wednesday. please keep me in your prayers for a safe journey.

I have you in my prayers. Godspeed, Moonbeam.

You can check in with everyone while here. This time we shall meet! My prayers are with you.

I stopped by the public library today and found the video of the William Golding classic, Lord of the Flies. It's a parable about a group of schoolboys stranded on a desert island. At first they intend to set up a process of self-governance while awaiting rescue. But their civil society quickly breaks down and turns to anarchy and violence. It is interesting that they are only able to think in terms of rules, the enforcement of which requires violence. And they quickly devolve into unilateralism and power struggles. It's a compact little story, and not a bad metaphor for society in general and Utne in particular. I honestly don't know what it will take to introduce the novel concept of a civil society operating with bilateral agreements. I note that it didn't happen on Utne or in the LJ conference there. Incidentally, the title, Lord of the Flies, is a literal translation of the Hebrew word/name Beelzebub.

Have a good, safe trip moonbeam.

thanks for the wings you prayed me -- ;) the trip was safe and uneventful. i'm in new mexico now and will leave for utah on saturday. 1,200 miles down, 800 more to go.

Now we pray for Hart and Patrick, and for Buffy, too.

Where are you checking in from? Motel room and laptop? Safespeed on the journey's final windup.

(((((Moonbeam)))))) It was great to hear from you today. Pampee sends her love. Sorry we couldn't meet up again.

terry, i'm checking in from los alamos, borrowing my dad's lab account (the spies are monitoring it, doncha know)... i have a laptop out in my car but haven't unpacked it this time. barry, thanks for everything. especially your prayers. debra, it was so nice to talk with you this evening. sorry i couldn't hold up my end of the conversation very well. we'll meet someday!

Posted on CNN's community forum in the "Hate Crimes" topic... Do you believe hate groups are a threat in this country? Hate is a mask for fear. To express hatred toward a threat is to acknowledge fear of that threat. Our culture is gripped by fear. And thus we transform objects of fear into objects of hate. That threatens the objects of hate and the feedback loop begins. Should the government be involved in monitoring these groups and their members? Fear of big government is causing the rise of the militia movement. The government targets the militia movement, which in turn targets the goverment. It's another vicious circle. Another feedback loop. And it's all driven by fear. How would you deal with instances of domestic terrorism? By overcoming fear. Look to the sources of fear. Look to the Amygdala. That's the brain's"Department of Horror Assessment." We live in a Stephen King culture. The Amygdala is pumpingout Horror-Moans, sending our brains into recurring paroxysms of terror. Incidentally, I predict the next round of terrorism in the US will be modeled after NATO's attacks in Yugoslavia. I predict the next round of terrorism will be attacks on our techno-infrastructure. Instead of spilling blood, those angry at the US will begin spilling transformer oil, targeting power substations, microwave towers, bridges, aqueducts, and other vulnerable elements of the US techno-infrastructure.

Oops.. Failed to close the %lt;PRE> tag properly.

Yapp needs an EDIT feature.

Barry, since you posted something about hate crimes - have I ever mentioned where Neo-Nazis get their ideological literature from? These people do info warfare since decades, just using postal means up to now... In a place somewhere in the US (Massachusetts?) called Lincoln is a group called NSDAP-AO (AO for Aufbauorganisation). There, fascists of the NS flavor from all over the world order the goods they crave - which, in the case of e.g. German Neo-Nazis are items that are by law illegal to possess or trade in Germany. You get stickers there, Hitler's Mein Kampf, and all kinds of propagandistic pamphlets. But production and distribution or these items are not illegal in where it happens, actually, it is considered a liberty to have that happening. It is a crime in Germany, though. This is e.g. documented in the annual German Verfassungsschutzberichte, the reports of the Verfassungsschutz, which has the task of protecting the German Federal constitution (Grundgesetz) from attacks by fringe-groups of any political flavor. This always made me wonder about liberties and social preferences (we had - on different topics - this arguement before). Often, when discussing this with Americans, I find that the restrictions Germany put up here are honestly frowned upon. Limiting freedom of speech, etc. Hmh. Perhaps you can help me shine some light on that.

I can tell you that Lincoln MA is about 8 miles from where I live (in Bedford MA). As I become older and wiser, my opinion of government declines steadily. I suppose most Americans consider the Fascists and the Nazis evil. But now more and more citizens are beginning to have second thoughts about American government, too. One American in 135 is now in prison. That's the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world.

There is another new forum for discussing the Orenda Project. Please join us at FoofyCafe at MuseNet.

Wow, you live right where the folks are! Know what? Their third-best buddies in Germany, fascist party NPD, have their HQ about 12 km from where I live. Don't worry about the incarceration rate, Barry! Cheer up, mate! It ain't so heavy - I guess Stalin and Hitler had higher rates... So y'all don't too bad in comparison!

Hey, research the figures, and recycle that argument - should resonate strongly with anybody who has a shred of democratic nerve and wake them... Hehe, what a neat phrase.

I have fascists living in and running my condo here in Bedford.

Explain, please.

It's explained on my web site. The condo association was hijacked by an evil cabal of corrupt crooks. That's why I'm so dispirited.

Barry, my man, you's gotta watch that lingo thang! What makes that "evil cabal of corrupt crooks" fascists?

They make up rules beneficial to themselves and then deliberately damage anyone who doesn't obey them.

Wait, that's CAPITALISM for ya, but fascism? Surely not! Your people at least give you a chance to comply to their rules, so they are equal-opportunity-crooks. Fascists generally don't offer such options. Use of loaded termini doesn't help to solve or defuse such situations.

Point well taken, Alexander. Loaded language stirs the pot and turns up the heat in a discussion.

They didn't always give us a chance to comply. In some cases they just stole money from the treasury to fund illegal activities.

Yes, of course - you SAID crooks, right? But these are equal opportunity bastards, so to speak. Anybody ruthless enough can join them, right? Or do they discriminate by heritage, nationality, ethnicity? Hey, Nan! How's things? Yep, loaded language. Something that belongs into the box "Takes one to know one", I guess. ;=}

And boy, do I know what YOU mean!

I just think it's tacky.

You should know, Alexander. ;)

What tacky means? Or why Barry thinks capitalism is fascism is tacky? Or what the Conference Admin said? Or what a bullshitter is? How things are? Yeah, I guess I *DO* know... Next!