Reality and Illusion

illusion (we are voting, right?)

what was the question?

sigh...

think we know the difference and choose to make our own reality.........

What if... Depression is normal, Shouldn't happiness be drugged?

happiness is drugged these days (i.e. prozac)

don't think that's what you meant, though (silly me)

I don't think anyone can tell the difference.. We each experience, then label things according to our beliefs and fears etc. How long did everyone believe the sun moved around the Earth? On a different note; Are denial and illusion getting to be synonomous?

Most of the time we live in our dreams. Is not the first song we learn in school: "Row, row your boart, gently down the stream, merrily, merrily...life is but a dream." So life is just a collection of stories and dreams. We write it as we go along. I suppose there is freedom in this perspective. But it is not clear that we can easly get out of our boxes -- even if we think they are self-imposed.

...I declare my faith: I mock Plotinus' thought And cry in Plato's teeth, Death and life were not Till man made up the whole, Made lock, stock, and barrel Out of his bitter soul, Ay, sun and moon and star, all, And further add to that That, being dead, we rise, Dream and so create Translunar Paradise. I have prepared my peace With learned Italian things And the proud stones of Greece, Poet's imaginings And memories of love, Memories of the words of women All those things whereof Man makes superhuman Mirror-resembling dream. (Wm. Yeats, from "The Tower, pt.3") sigh...

and isn't the reality that we allow ourselves our illusions and name those reality? But then, who does the dis-illusioning? And, although not near as well read as you, I certaintly appreciate your quotin', nick

I think that's basically what Yeats was saying... It is tautological, of course, in a way (what else CAN form reality, but our perceptions?... and nothing is proveable, beyond them)...

Given that Yeat's stuff was on the button. Why do so many insist on proving their illusion to be the 'correct' item?

Americ; "But it is not clear that we can easily get out of our boxes -- even if we think they are self-imposed." Perhaps you can't get out if you fear leaving something behind. Like your identity? or maybe your accumulated defenses against the world? Is it fear that is always getting in the way?

mainly fear of incarceration, i think...

Perhaps you can't get out if you fear leaving something behind. Like your identity? Well....loss of identity can be a fair-some thing. They might lock you up as crazy.

but what if you have extra identities?...

I speak of the ego identity we think is so important for our survival. The adult. Not the child. Do you take your identity with you when you dream? Is it a fear-some thing?

Again, isn't your identity just another manifestation of your reality which is in fact a modification of your illusions and perceptions?

yes. sometimes think, though, that "illusions" are custom-fitted to justify it (identity)... that the integral part of identity is a core-issue, malleable only to a degree... (but i also clapped for tinkerbell, so what the hell do i know?)

With all the musical chair identities out there/here, anybody see a common thread/purpose/theme? Looking for a road going somewhere.

Then pick a direction, and we'll follow. Or not. Or maybe we'll all just accidentally wind up at the same place... "The world will end tomorrow. You're welcome." quoted from the Caretaker of the Continuum

WER, have you read Donald Bartheme's "The Dead Father?" I think you'd enjoy it.

Nope, never heard of it either. Tell me more, or is that what you're getting me for Christmas?

A non-traditional journey with some surreal and atypical characters. Interesting. Curious. Odd. The kind of novel you might want to sit down and ponder with a few brews. And I thought you'd prefer something less substantial for a gift...

Whichever takes the longest to finish...

*grin* Well. You were exhibiting a swiftness problem earlier... if we can get that under control...

So, we'll wait and see, huh?

Oh my. I'm having all sorts of illicit thoughts! Which frightfully has come solely from public correspondence. What on earth might happen when we meet? I guess I'll just rely on my self-control.

*sly grin*

*knowing wink*

*discreet pinch*

*reciprocal press*

*slight moan* *ear tickle w/ the tip of my tongue*

Ongoing example of illusion, ya'll... Now, where were we?

Off and on, I have been thinking about doing an "InfoTheatre" event. Light show. Three computers. Projectors on to the walls. CyberLove skits. Couple meets in cyberspace -- lots of mind heat. Then they actually meet. Interesting twists are possible. Reality and illusion can play a lot here.

It would be neat to meet the faces behind the words, but scary too, don't you think? What would be really neat is to guess who is who, rather than wear little stick on name tags.........Hmmmmmmmmm

Do you want us naked, too?

Depends on the group. We could have special "screens" to allow people to "see" only what they want to see.

That would be fine if wer agrees to leave his x-ray glasses at home.

think he'd set it up so we'd have to see everything! (Probably have someone else pose for him-heehee) Wer, you'd better start workin' out, baby.......

(Oh, I'll be there, for sure-at the gym, I mean)

How do you already know I need to work out, Wolf? Autumn, sometimes the right clothes are better than none at all. (Actually, in fact, most of the time! Especially in my case...)

They do say clothes make the man.... As far as the gym goes, you work in a restaurant, right? How much self-control could you possibly have surrounded by all that shrimp scampi and tirami su?

No joke! Don't you ever get sick of lookin' at all that food? Have heard from many people that after working a restaurant, they could never eat out again. (But I agree wer, definately wear clothes, something, a potato sack, but not the birthday suit, no way!)

And Americ, you're gonna hafta give some of us time to make ourselves presentable!

Depends on your motivation... Sometimes, eating out is research, at others it's relaxing and fun, like a musician appreciating another's work. And yes, the self-control at work comes from being around it all the time. One does become jaded at one's own establishment... I promise to wear something, althought I should get to meet Stacey this week or next, so no more surprises there...

were you surprised? and, for everyone else's benefit, he did wear clothes!

as did she, the whole time, dammit!!! (still gots my fantasies, though...)

As to your question, (I back tracked after the last response...) yes, very pleasantly so...

How were you surprised, what did you expect? (BE honest)

Honest, you wound me... Haven't we been painfully so with each other so far... (if I do, will you?)

are you avoiding MY question????? *smile*

Right here in front of the gods and everybody? And that's the deal, I will if you will. Take it or leave it.

That is not an explaination of what you first thought of me!

Maybe not, but it is an accurate summation. First thoughts: This is hard to remember because of the circumstances...Ok, neither your voice or your accent did justice to the preconception in my head, but I adjusted quickly enough to that. However, your choice of words over the phone was greatly appreciated. Appearance wise, I liked the casual dress because it relieved most of the tension I was feeling because I was in my "kitchen attire." More, or can I stop now and you take a turn?

and, was this an example of reality or illusion? *wink* I know I've had my share of illusion lately (at no other fault but my own)

(and wer, i wear safari, just in case you were curious or if you were wondering what the hell that smell was *grin*

here???

Not sure yet, Wolf, on the reality vs. illusion thing you asked. It is a very appropriate topic name for this discussion, no? (and thanks, I thought my nose was going haywire, and if you knew how big it is, you'd understand the depth of that problem*wink*)

I think I prefer illusion, Wolf. I find reality highly overrated.

yeah, but at least with reality, you know what to expect (most of the time)...get the hard, cold facts right in front of you....though i do indulge in illusion as reality gets a bit too predictable (esp. my reality). Wer, who wants a perfect nose anyway, at least you have character (and this is a high compliment)--BTW will try not to overpower the room with my stench! *wink*

More answer, Stacey... wasn't expecting the banter outside of the anonymity of this place...that was a very pleasant suprise. Now, it's your turn.

sorry... unintentional loss of network connection for a few days! No perfume WER. I don't wear it. My expectations of you were, as I said before, not physically tied. I was neither surprised nor familiar with your presence but I was a bit taken aback by the initial shyness! Once you were out of your work atmosphere, it was hard not to call you WER as you seemed just like you are here. Funny, witty, dry and a little somber. At KL, it was hard not to call you William. A certainly different environment!

here, I can be me... nowhere else am I allowed that... the shyness came from not wanting to but in on you and Terry(Paul), I warned you that I'm not a social animal...I do appreciate the compliments, you are too kind... so, do you want to continue the inquisition?

Yeah, KL was kinda weird... Zoe is gorgeous though, isn't she? (sorry, it's a dad thang *shrug*) as for calling me WER or William, after much thought, William sounds unnatural when spoken by you, I prefer you to call me WER. And, I do miss hearing you say, "Fair enough." In fact, whenever I hear that phrase, it reaches my brain in your voice. And I had to be somewhat shy at work, as you kept insisting I commit a firable offense. You're such a bad influence...

Is Zoe your daughter, wer? How old?

Yes, ma'am. She's four.

4 is a splendid age. My younger daughter will be 4 in April, and I recall it being a smooth, calm year for my older girl

Smooth and calm would be good...

Autumn, April what? My daughter will be 5 on the 12th.

Lydia will be 4 on April 3 and Juliette will be 6 on April 25. She is forever asking me why her sister's birthday is first when she was born first. I try to explain that her birthday is 11 1/2 months earlier than her sister's, but she doesn't go for it! Is your daughter entering kindergarten this fall?

yes and I'm already worrying about it...........

Hiya, gals!

(those are beautiful names, autumn...)

What be the names of your children, Wolf?

And yours too, Nick? (thanks, by the way, I always liked the frou-frou names)

my daughters are named nicole (nikki) and erin... sons too numerous to list...

My kittens names are Tahja and Rafikki. They'll be six months on the 28th. (sorry, the impulse to conform was overwhelming)

(those are beautiful names, too... origins, please?)

Recurring dream about a tiny kitten started about 1 1/2 years ago. In my dream the kitten's name was Rafikki. Odd as it may sound we decided to look for Rafikki rather than find any cat and give her the name. Took us almost a year. She had a sister in the litter that Brandon really became fond of. We took both Rafikki and her sister but had to wait a week until we discovered her name. Tahja just fits her personality. She is pristine and mischevious, never aloof. Both kittens adore people and, despite their growing size, insist on perching on shoulders when we are cooking, reading, sweeping... anything! And they both enjoy showering. Tahja will jump completely in, Rafikki won't walk under the spray but will sit to the back of the tub. A roundabout explanation of where their names orginated. The brief one would be... they just are.

that is a lovely, enchanting story... (and rather unique, must say... first instance i've heard of recurring cat dreams... don't know what freud or jung would make of that...:)

I like Rafikki, it reminds me of that mystical baboon in the "Lion King." My sister-in-law is very intuitive about identities also. She sensed her truck's name is Silver Hawk, and her trailer is Moongazer. Her own name is now Brightstar.

*smile* I asked my kids today what they thought their names meant and whether or not they thought their name fit them. Only one student (Kyle) said he didn't like his name and didn't think it suited him. He would prefer to be called James.

Wow, that's interesting...usually it's the girls who hate their names and want to have whatever is the most popular name (I myself yearned to be a Tammy! Now I am so glad I'm not!) Are you going to start calling Kyle James from now on?

I told him to take 48 hrs to think about it. If on Friday he still wants to be called James, yes, I will make an official 'amendment' to my grade book.

I figure there are few things these kids can change about their lives, or have any control of... if the name helps... we'll use it!

It may make all the difference in the way he looks at his life.

*fingers crossed* let's hope it helps!

Ok stacey, what happened to kyle or james?

and think of the pygmalion effect of this: "I figure there are few things these kids can change about their lives, or have any control of" what if a teacher would figure there are many really important things kids can change about their lives, or have total control of.

And there is the other side of that too Jim. What if the kids ever figure out how much they can change.

They would be the new pygmalions. And I bet it would sure work, and then the teacher would go through some heavy changes about their own teaching potential.

They would for sure. Some of those changes , they wouldn't want I expect.

Don't pig out on those pygmalion expectations around any teachers though, Tim. It might turn 'em back around to lowered potentials.

It might at that. and then again it might spur them on to higher potential.

You mean using reverse psychology on 'em to get them to prove you wrong by showing you that they do want all changes to their teaching potential that result from their students pygmalioning them into seeing how their teaching can be freeing for the students when their teaching realizes its potential? That was hard to decode---whatever it is we're talking about. I think pygmalioning isn't as good as noticing what the kids are and what they're going through, while listening to the beat of life. I think throwing out positive and negative expectations is the best thing. That leaves the teacher (and the student) much more open to possibilities. In other words, that's really saying that positive expectations can hinder growth. I think they do, because they take up room in the mind that could be room used for noticing what the kids are really like. That's important because when a teacher sees that, they can combine their energy and creative attention with the student's hidden or unhidden desire to discover and learn and live. There's more room/space/reception for flashpoint interplay. That fusion of mutual interest is what touches off wonder and the disciplined pursuit of wonder. "Discipline" meaning focused interest, like when you're noticing a friend walking into open area 25 feet away from you, and then you see their silhouette against the full moon. And it astounds you. And you weren't going to take your eyes off it until you saw the whole thing. That's discipline, as that same kind of attention can be applied to how new experiences in learning talk to you from the inside throughout the day.

I agree. Expectations do get in the way of learning. All the time.

That and a one-sided attitude towards learning.

That is part of what I meant by expectations. The attitude that progress will be demonstrated in a linear fashion.