Is religion dangerous

A little introduction to my stance is here

Yes, I think religion can be very dangerous. It can be used to create a false sense of peace in society, peace based on implicit ignorance (all colours agree in the dark). Or it is sometimes built upon a direct admission of contraries in fundamental points, turning truth and falsehood into iron and clay: they may cleave to one another, but incorporate they will not. Religion is far too often used as a means to an end, to obtain power over people, for instance. This way the laws of charity and humanity is dissolved, and used to propagate wars, and force consciences.

It can be used to create a false sense of peace in society Surely what we should all be aiming for is peace in society? If not, then you adhere to principles of war, of which you accuse religion of creating. all colours agree in the dark That statement is not enough on its own. Please enlighten. I am interested to hear what you have to say. Religion is far too often used as a means to an end, to obtain power over people, for instance To what end, Riette? To what end does my faith exert a negative power over me? It encourages me to live morally, which I try my best to do, but it also points out to me that I am doomed to failure. That I am never good enough to even come close to what I could be had I not rejected God. Darn. But what's this? On the horizon comes looming the get-out-clause (initials JC) by which I'm pointed toward the person I could be, but let-off when I'm crap, as long as I realise that I've been crap. What sort o a means to an end is that, Riette? I could just as easily be going out and screwing the whole town, getting off my face on every illegal substance I can get my hands on, and generally leading the hedonistic life. But why? That ain't gonna do me any good in the long run, is it? used to propagate wars oh dear...not this old chestnut again. if you look at your history, you'll see that the majority of wars are actually about greed and about territory, with "religion" being something tacked on the front to make them appear worthwhile.

I read your response quite a while ago, and have been thinking about what you said for two hours now. It is very difficult, but I have to admit that in certain points you have a point. First I should answer all your questions - otherwise you might think I make this admission because I am unable to explain myself, and because I don't know what I wanted to say myself. I said that religion can create a false sense of peace in society. Perhaps I should add 'when it is not well contained within the true band of unity'. Before I say anything futher, I think it is important that we acknowledge the fact that we come from two different cultures. I cannot claim to know exactly how religion functions in your culture, but I grew up in a country neighbouring South Africa, and so my opinions on religion stem from that experience, as yours stem from wherever you grew up. So I should speak in broader terms . . . Gosh, this is so difficult - I don't quite know how to put myself across. What I mean is, that if the points that are fundamental and of substance in religion were discerned and distinguished LESS PARTIALLY from points not merely of faith, but of opinion, it would be embraced more generally. Does that say anything to you? ALL COLOURS AGREE IN THE DARK What I mean by it is that men tend to create oppositions which do not really exist. These they put into new terms, so fixed that whereas the meaning ought to govern the term, the term in effect governs the meaning - therefore the sense of peace that people get from their religion is false. RELIGION IS TOO OFTEN USED AS A MEANS TO AN END Yes, Mike I more than understand that your religion encourages you to lead a moral and good life. So does mine, however relativist it may be. But not all people are as intelligent and spiritually independent as you are. Why do you think everything, from advertising to movies to religion to politics is directed at the masses? Because many, many, many people do not think for themselves - perhaps because they are afraid of what answers they might discover to their queries. They need something to hold on The very fact that you question my Relativist tendencies proves this point. Because I do not believe in the same way, or perhaps in the same Being, because I do not practise my beliefs in the same way as you do, you question it. I am not a part of the mass you belong to; You don't like something that threatens your fixed, and safe world. (Not to be taken as an insult, though.) But it does not answer your question. Do you not agree that the church has GREAT power in society? In the society where I come from, its authority exceeded that of the state and government. That is what I mean by dangerous. The end that is obtain through the means, is to make people believe what the church thinks they SHOULD believe. It's just a big power thing. For example: I kind of fell out with my parents and the church, and was EXPELLED from Sunday school when I was about ten or eleven; I was taught in Sunday school that black people were created by the devil, white people by God - with his blond hair and all - and therefore it was right and good that they should be opressed and scorned. I told the teacher that he was wrong, because once the skin is removed, one would not be able to distinguish the black man from a white - his blood is as red as mine, his bones as white. I was made to stand on a stool and pronounce myself to be unchristian - which I did with pride. (Two years ago that same church was forced to publicly announce that, actually they had made a minor mistake - actually all creatures were created by God.) HA-HA! Sweet revenge. So, if my opinions on religion seems somehow radical, forgive me - I am sure it can function quite differently. USED TO PROPAGATE WARS It is not only an old, but a very hard chestnut - one that can break your teeth. Yes, let us look at history. Was it not the christians who did most of the murdering and plundering throughout time? I believe so. What about the Nazi's - the F�hrer and all his mad monkeys belonged to the same radical religious sect. There have been massacres in France throughout the centuries, oh, as many wars were because 'GOD SPOKE' , as those about territory. I am not saying the religion in itself is dangerous, but when put into the hands of common people it can be a thing quite monstrous. I my eyes to personate God, making Him the prince of darkness is greater blasphemy than when the devil said he would ascend and be like the highest. But what better way is there to obtain power in society, but to make the 'cause' of religion descend upon unthinking people? Surely this is to present the Holy Ghost in the shape of a vulture instead of a dove, and to hoist the flag of pirates and assassins in front of the church. That is, I think, all I can come up with right now. I must be boring you to death with this outrageous talk!

i'll answer tomorrow, Riette :) I've just spent half an hour researching bible stuff, and i really really need to go to bed, since it's 12.40 a.m. and i have a presentation to give tomorrow :)

Religion is dangerous because being religious has nothing to do with being spiritual.

Short, Simple, So True, Kitchen Man. Mike, I am awaiting your response with great curiosity. Fun, isn't it?

Those who cannot think for themselves are often protected by groups who think for the masses. Religion is powerful. Occassionally power can be dangerous. Everyone deserves a nightlight if they are afraid of the dark.

I must say the very thought of ANYONE else thinking for me scares me. I'm a real control freak as far as my own self is concerned. Just being in control of my own thoughts, ideas, opinions and wishes, serves me as a nightlight. I think if one lets oneself be controlled by something or someone else, not even a 1000 volt nightlight will take away the fears - 'cos you won't know WHAT to fear. At least if one is in control you can figure out what it is you fear, and reason with it. And if one has clarity, you can face your fears.

Hey, Mike Griggs! Where are you?! Still awaiting your reply . . . or are you yet to find the answers?

And again Riette, we must take the diversity of others into account. Some don't need/want/care or know how (or what) they can be in control. Some cannot or choose not to incubate their own thoughts. I honestly agree with your sentiments but that doesn't mean others are capable or desire to take these matters into their own hands.

Yes, you are right. I sometimes forget the fact, but I can respect it. People should be free to choose whether to follow or to lead. It is those who lead who generate most of the trouble I find.

So sorry about my absence. I got very sick on Tuesday and life has been a bit of a nightmare since then. I'm recovered now, though, which is good. therefore the sense of peace that people get from their religion is false I'd have to disagree with that, I'm afraid. defining "sense of peace" and falsehood is a difficult manner, prone to error and subjectivism. Therefore, one can only say that a sense of peace is a sense of peace - not that one is necessarily better, or more true. For example: I kind of fell out with my parents and the church, and was EXPELLED from Sunday school when I was about ten or eleven; I was taught in Sunday school that black people were created by the devil, white people by God - with his blond hair and all - and therefore it was right and good that they should be opressed and scorned. I told the teacher that he was wrong, because once the skin is removed, one would not be able to distinguish the black man from a white - his blood is as red as mine, his bones as white. I was made to stand on a stool and pronounce myself to be unchristian - which I did with pride. (Two years ago that same church was forced to publicly announce that, actually they had made a minor mistake - actually all creatures were created by God.) HA-HA! Sweet revenge. I can understand a little of where you are coming from now that you've told us that. That's cool. One thing you seem to have neglected to notice is that in fact you acted more as a Christian than they did. It follows therefore that Christianity is not following the masses, it's following the Bible, which is completely different. That's one reason why I don't go to one particular church - because I know that people are fallible and subjective, and that one person's interpretation of something will always differ from that of another. In that way, Christianity is a search for truth, underpinned by the fact that whether it is found or not, one still doesn't have to worry - one is still "rescued" from being cr p. USED TO PROPAGATE WARS The fact remains that men will always want to fight each other, Riette, and will find whatever excuse they want. If you read in Genesis about Kane and Abel, it's so obvious that people today are direct descendants of them - whether you belief in the physical descendency or not is immaterial, since the conceptuality remains the same. I must say the very thought of ANYONE else thinking for me scares me. I'm a real control freak as far as my own self is concerned. Just being in control of my own thoughts, ideas, opinions and wishes, serves me as a nightlight. That assumes, Riette, that you have all the answers to life. That there is nothing that will phase you and make you think "argh! I can't explain that!". That's pretty arrogant, I would say. I'm only 20 years old, but I've already seen enough of life to know that there are some much bigger reasons to so many things. Death is a horrible thing, yet if one strips all meaning from it, it becomes the most vile thing imaginable. 20, 30, 75 years of learning, interaction, teaching, wisdom, life and energy w ped away. With nothing else. That's it. Gone.

Hi, Mike. I've missed you! And I'm ashamed. I did not mean to sound arrogant. And I'm sorry you were so ill. Do you feel better now? I hope so. I am right now not in a fit state to respond to everything you have said, but I am touched my them. But I probably owe you a better explanation about the night light bit. I don't have the answers, and never will. I am four years older than you, and probably with fewer answers and just as many fears. It is not knowing the answers I struggle with (I accept it, because I am but a speck in the universe), but as long as I know the questions, and am able to admit to myself that certain things frighten me, I can live with it better. That is how I meant it, the kind of control I so need. I agree that death is a horrible thing, and believe me, I revere the thought. I would ne er make light of it. Forgiven?

"Evangelism is not taught, it's caught. It's a disease you have to be infected with. Soul-winning has to be total surrender! This is a supernatural God and this is a supernatural ministry." --Tom Crisp

SO you are also starting to rely on other people's thoughts? REFRAIN, will you?! I'm an ordinary person, I don't want to know what some other, less unremarkable person said, who had nothing better to do than to formulate clever little sayings so that other people could quote him on a chat room!!! Or hey, why don't we simply ALL start quoting them? Let Tom Crisp chat with C.S. Lewis, let Shakesspeare condradict Goethe, let Wilde flirt with Shaw. I see no reason why I should hang around here any longer with people who can't speak their own minds, so I'm going now. Might return when I'm less tired, less irritated, and more in the mood for pleasant discourse with dead people, dammit.

reference to similiar thoughts that may or may not be spoken more eloquently than we could ourselves, allows us to put our thoughts into different words, thus presenting them in a manner that may or may not allow the other people present to better understand our thoughts (it's okay, Riette, I'll be quiet now)

wooooo......chill, Riette. Nothing here to get too worried about. Don't you think it's fun to lock horns with each other a bit? I'm sorry if my previous post sounded confrontational - I didn't mean it to be, I promise. Hope you come back soon - be missin' ya.

I have no problems locking horns, Mike, and you of all people should know that. But it is frustrating for me when people keep throwing somebody else's words into my face. If I'm talking to a person, I don't want to hear all the time what this and that other person said a century or more or less ago, because it does not interest me. It interests me to hear what HE has to say, here and now, and if he can't speak his own mind he should not be talking at all. Hell, I don't care how people's thoughts come out, and I can appreciate an honest, sincere reply, however crooked it comes out, so much better than some grand words of wisdom meant to impress (and get published). No, I'm not doing those words down, or being arrogant, but if I wanted to know what Kiergegaard or Tom Crisp or Bully Buckface once said and felt, I'll go read it all by myself, thank you - don't need anyone to hold my hand in doing so. I apologize for sounding like a commanding bitch, but I must say what is on my mind. I'm sorry.

Also it's just the wrong time of the month for me, that's all.

Don't do that, Riette! It invalidates your opinion and makes you sound unstable (so what if you are?); it's that kind of comment that gives us the reputation as "the weaker sex."

I'm being honest, not unstable or weak. Honesty is more important to me than the ego, or whether I show weakness or not. What do I care if they see us as the weaker sex - I've been through child birth twice in consecutive years, and no man would have survived that, so I'm secure enough about that not to be afraid of coming across as weak. If I'm feeling weak, and under the weather, and rotten, then I should say so, because if I said I simply enjoyed being a pain, and going around bitching at people to give me their honest opinion, it would only be half the truth, and part of some ego trip. I don't go on those. The truth is that without the crazy hormones, I would probably not have said so at a l, for fear of making enemies - and that's the weakness. I have alot of those, and I should be honest about them if I'm going to live with myself for another few years.

sorry you're feeling bitchy Riette... it happens to us all. I only want to defend the stance of those who every so often use others words to express thoughts. Sometimes, the words I use don't make sense to others, or they don't convey exactly my meaning or sometimes, another has phrased something so beautifully 'me' that I choose to borrow it briefly to share with another. I have always been fascinated by words that have lasted through the ages, the idea that what was true then, often applies now. In other words, I enjoy hearing quotes from famous, or infamous people, or laymen... I enjoy other's opinions and rarely feel like someone is copping out when they 'borrow' from the tried and possibly true. And thanks Autumn... for the bit about invalidation... I never saw it like that but I can see how others might. I do not want to be known as the weaker sex. I certainly do not wish to invalidate my opinion/feelings/desires.

i personally don't see the problem with quoting other people. Jesus quotes the scriptures constantly in all of the gospels, and he is arguably one of the most influential/important figures of the last two millenia. if someone is quoting someone else, then they are essentially ascribing their allegiance to whatever the quote says - thus, if they then attribute it, they do so only through politeness and a desire not to claim the words of someone else.

Yeah, yeah, okay. I'm feeling more sane today, so shut up. I'm willing to live and let live again, so carry on quoting. Till next month anyway . . .

you're certainly interesting, Riette! definitely not afraid to let it all come out through your posts, which I like :)

Your response is making me smile. I take it naming names is not so much the American way then?

I don't think Mike knows too much about the "American way"...(*smile*) Riette, (BTW, my mother-in-law makes one that my husband raves about), if you are using your hormones as a disclaimer not to offend anyone, I understand. I thought you were vascillating on your opinion and blaming it on that "on the rag" crap. I get such a thrill out of lurking about the topics you post in!

Why?

Let's just say I enjoy the intercourse....

Ha-ha! You little intercourser, you!