How do you forgive?

wow. too early in the a.m. for that one. I'll grab my coffee and come back to it.

My, Wer, you must have had a mighty rough weekend!

ahhh. coffee had. I don't think anyone else can tell you 'how' to forgive and, what's more, if a path doesn't seem apparent, maybe you're not ready to forgive (mind you, I use 'you' as the universal you) Forgiveness, for me, is always spurred on by an overwhelming desire to get on with life without the anger, angst, frustration, sadness I had been carrying around. Usually, if I feel I've been wronged, forgiveness comes about when I stop wallowing in my negative emotions and begin to see another persons point of view come to light. Often though I think I accept an apology without realizing the ramifications of what I've just done. Accepting an apology is like giving forgiveness but if you only 'do it' verbally then it doesn't really count. blah, blah, blah.. perhaps I need more coffee. I think forgiveness is something you can only offer to those you feel extremely close to. Otherwise, you can just 'forget' which is much easier.

definitely for me it's about finally seeing the other person's point of view, which probably only comes about when all of the negative feelings have gone away. and also the hurt, i guess, which brings about the negative feelings. once the hurt has gone away then one can make a start on the forgiveness.

see, for me forgetting is the hard part...

if forgetting is based on not understanding the hurt, i wouldn't want to forget and if hurt is really about not getting what i want, then i want to find out why my wants are so dictatorial or demanding if someone kills my daughter, i can see the reasons for why it happened without having a demanding quality in my emotions about how it shouldn't have happened it happens and there are reasons for it (accumulated unresolved hostility, for example) the problem, though, is that i can't do the above and i think it's due to how i don't understand emotion i think it can be understood and when it isn't, it creates destructive outcomes in people (e.g. hurt or the need to remember marks against me)

Forgetting involves not understanding the hurt but it is not based on it (i don't believe). Forgetting is based on not wanting to feel or deal with the hurt any longer. To pretend it never happened so to speak... Understanding is certainly preferable, forgiving is ideal. Forgetting is sometimes a cheat-y way out though.

why do we not want to feel or deal with the hurt any longer? i ask because if we could deal with it effectively, we wouldn't need to forget or forgive. if we didn't have to pretend something never happened by suppressing it by "forgetting" it then it wouldn't have the chance it gets to build up in strength where we've pushed it out of sight we feel we need to take the way of most convenience, some point to get relief but it leads to repercussions down the line just like getting too caught up in not "forgetting" it does if we don't take responsibility for learning about what we don't want to learn about (after a certain point of pain), then we are welcoming more Littleton shootings. what if Littleton is in everyone's backyard. what if we are all rather violent but not accepting it. we're all getting pretty upset and thinking violent thoughts and expressing them in our tone of voice and fighting attitudes when we're in those situations of intense anger and lesser angers. but who really wants to begin to understand these emotions, or emotion per se? who cares that much or wants to be that responsible? i know i can't seem to get past the point of pain either, and i give up and try to get distracted and off and away from it. forgiving, though, goes against my craw. even though anger is lessened and all that (on the surface). and i continue to stay real irresponsible and stunted like that.

I agree with you Jim... no good reason to forget But emotional strength is needed to increase emotional strength... Sometimes you just don't have the stamina to deal with an event so draining and hurtful and frustrating...

so the question is what is emotional strength? or emotional clarity? there may be nothing to forgive. forgiveness may be a security mechanism, nothing more. no one would be able to find out unless they were clear enough to penetrate into the fact of what they're feeling to work all the way through the feeling(s) without caving in, part way, because of how draining it is. so the question gets sharper: what is the draining? right? isn't that the place to start? don't we want to get better at this? the world isn't going to change significantly unless we do. burning emotions that lead to conflict will do us in every time because we're too drained to understand them, and the world will proceed on its course accordingly. these are important tough questions, problems, that are urgently in need of finding out about. and it's complicated by the very real obstacle of how the need to find an answer prevents the finding out, and creates a big part of the draining phenomenon. this all needs to be looked into very closely. who would ever do it though? no one really.......

I think, in some instances, one needs to forgive one's self, and forget the pain caused by others...

Jim said: don't we want to get better at this? Stace says: Yes Jim: the world isn't going to change significantly unless we do. Stace: i agree Jim: burning emotions that lead to conflict will do us in every time because we're too drained to understand them, and the world will proceed on its course accordingly. Stace: Not so... sometimes you have energy for conflict. Sometimes you have energy to ask the hard questions. Sometimes you have the drive and will and desire to proceed immediately. But sometimes you need to stop, think, cry, feel and gather strength without giving it away at the same time. And for awhile you (I) have to try and forget

does forgiveness involve not understanding the whole emotion involved, whether it's forgiving ourselves or someone else? when we decide to forget the pain, isn't there something going on there in us that decides to give up on understanding the emotion of pain? when we have the energy to go into the center of the conflict, are we understanding the whole emotion in the conflict? isn't that different from reaching an agreement with yourself or/and someone else? do you think it's possible to understand the emotion of conflict so entirely that from that point on, a person is then able to understand conflict in any form it takes? could it be that energy and understanding work so together that you can't have one without the other, otherwise it's not real understanding or it's not clear and innocent energy? doesn't clear innocent energy have the depth to get to the center of a small conflict and reach such an understanding of it that the energy is there to deal completely with large intense conflict without the need to stop or falter?

Jim: does forgiveness involve not understanding the whole emotion involved, whether it's forgiving ourselves or someone else? Stace: I think is does involve understanding the whole emotion involved (that's why it takes so much energy) Jim: when we decide to forget the pain, isn't there something going on there in us that decides to give up on understanding the emotion of pain? Stace: I think that to forgive you must look at the emotion of pain and try and understand where it's coming from... again... by not forgetting, you expend a lot more energy to get to the point where you can forgive. Jim: when we have the energy to go into the center of the conflict, are we understanding the whole emotion in the conflict? Stace: I cannot answer that. I often think I can get to a point of understanding but perhaps I've just put meaning into something that didn't have it to begin with... Jim: isn't that different from reaching an agreement with yourself or/and someone else? Stace: Agreement. In the form of understanding? Or in the form of compromise? Jim: do you think it's possible to understand the emotion of conflict so entirely that from that point on, a person is then able to understand conflict in any form it takes? Stace: I haven't ever been able to understand conflict in any form it takes... on a superficial level, yes. Maybe. That it stems often from emotion, strong emotion. But not a deep seated understanding that would put me at peace with the entire aspect of conflict and the purposes it serves. Jim: could it be that energy and understanding work so together that you can't have one without the other, otherwise it's not real understanding or it's not clear and innocent energy? Stace: Could be. I've never looked at energy as innocent though... Hmmmm.... Jim: doesn't clear innocent energy have the depth to get to the center of a small conflict and reach such an understanding of it that the energy is there to deal completely with large intense conflict without the need to stop or falter? Stace: Clear innocent energy has depth??? Perhaps I've never experienced that type of energy. Or maybe I have and just attributed it to a good breakfast and a sunny day... Over time, after tears, after writing and rewriting, doodling... I begin to understand things more clearly. I've always assumed that during those times I've been gathering energy, not dealing with an issue until I'm ready. But perhaps I am dealing with it all the while, slowly, methodically, with a bit of innocence?? Maybe it seems (even to me) like I avoid dealing with situations that I am actually coming to an understanding the entire time... Maybe I am just a chicken... (free range ya know)

(I know)

Stace: I haven't ever been able to understand conflict in any form it takes... on a superficial level, yes. Maybe. That it stems often from emotion, strong emotion. But not a deep seated understanding...... _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ I think this is the case with almost everyone and with all emotions, including forgiveness. I think the meaning we give to forgiveness is merely expedient, not real, because it "helps" us "get through" hard times. Same with all the other emotions and situations in life, whether it's hard times or not . We want to get through life the best we can. So I'm asking if anyone wants to live in the real. Does anyone want to actually find out what emotion is, and what conflict is, what forgiveness is (if anything)? If we notice, with emotion there is the sensation of feeling, which is harmless enough in itself, but then what happens? The things that occur to us after that point play into the feeling and attach themselves to it. That's where it gets complicated, and we lose touch with the feeling. It's turned into something else, which has very little to do with feeling, and much to do with clever sophisticated security mechanisms and sentiment. It's the self, our concern about our own self, that pulls in the att chments, the complications, which become vested interests and bring that kind of energy with it to the emotion. The emotion now is a far cry from the original feeling. To see how the self with its self concerns takes a want or desire and attaches meaning to it, is to see how feeling gets lost in needs --- like the need for vanity or ambition or intellectualizing or sorrow or nationalism or importance or idea or amusement. Conflict happens when one person wants something and another person wants something different --- that's after the self steps in, takes the original feeling and dresses it up with the outer coverings of needs it becomes or had already become attached to. Understanding conflict happens when we get to know the needy wants and attachments, eliminate them without condemnation, and find out again what the original innocent feeling is, if it's there anymore. It won't be, because feeling changes. It's alive. Needs change too. That's why it's so difficult to understand them and conflict. What's more remarkable than any of our escapes from what's real is seeing a clear innocent feeling as the self draws in on it and contaminates it with images and words, as it forms into conflict with what is real. We don't live with facts (an actual feeling), we live entirely in our minds, in our heads. So we're preoccupied with our mental emotional activity and need stimulants to keep it moving enough not to get too bored with ourselves. We're afraid of what we'll see if don't put any effort into life. Fear is a constant. What is true is a constant noshow-er. Energy is effortless when there's no self-concern directing it. We start to notice our conditioning when we start to notice how self-concern takes over and corrupts feeling. Can you perceive what's taking place in that instant the takeover starts? That would be learning how to live without conflict. It's extraordinarily difficult to see that instant and to see how the self's wants and needs turn life into a desolation of power and control......negativity at its finest (because we are so used to respecting this action, as a society we teach our young to live like this and grow old with no truth, no passion except the force-fed kind we push ourselves with, with effort and lost original innocent feeling). Don't agree or disagree with me. Find out for yourselves. Listen in to the moment. Discover. I wish I could. I can't. I'm not very sensitive. Not very fearless. I somehow don't listen closely enough.

i think i must have too much self-concern...

I appear to be using a different model than others here. Here is my model for overcoming abuse. 1. Survive it. 2. Surpass it. 3. Understand it. 4. Forgive it. 5. Heal it. I find that Step 4 is nearly impossible without Step 3, and that Step 3 is very hard. It requires constructing a model of the abuser and the abuse. What I have found is that the abuser is operating from a position of power, but without awareness. It is hard to believe that someone is not aware of what others see as obvious, but the evidence suggests that. I am continually astounded to discover that others don't see what I do, and others are continually dumbfounded that I don't see what they do. Our mutual blindness leads to mutual pain. This was also the theory that Socrates put forward in his Apology. It's the only theory I've found that reliab y explains abuse, misery, and suffering.

"I am continually astounded to discover that others don't see what I do, and others are continually dumbfounded that I don't see what they do." Now that pretty much sums me up when I'm awake.

You are looking at it the wrong way. One cannot see one's own self from looking through the back of the eye. I have a much different perspective. Intellect, character and wit shine from within through the front of the eye. I have seen this in you. Go have another cup of coffee...

so... look through the front of the eyes into a mirror?

I do not always like what I see in the mirror because I am looking at me. When I look at my son, I am told that I glow with love and joy. Only others can see these things - I never have, but I am happy that they say it is true.

Barry, abuse is all about Power and Control. Removing yourself from one's power over you, when you understand that this is what is happening, also causes one to lose control over you. The rest is easy. It is like someone who is sufficating finally getting the airways cleared again. New life and esteem and all that goes with it is suddenly happening inside you. I will not pretend it is easy to accomplish, but when you do, you will never let it happen again. And, therein lies the forgiveness. You were a partner in that little drama, and realizing the other's weaknesses caused the problem makes you feel something more like pity than anything else for the one who has subjected you to the abuse.

The other side of the coin from Power and Control is Freedom and Creativity. When I am faced with the challenge of Power and Control, I turn to Creativity, which tends to drive the control freaks nuts. For every attempt to impose control, I respond with the invention of yet another new degree of freedom. There are an infinite number of new degrees of freedom waiting to be discovered or invented. I'm mostly harmless, and at times downright enjoyable. But not every control freak would agree. :)

Control Freaks are my least favorite individuals, and creativity makes them uneasy and downright jealous. That in itself is enough to give a boost to the juices fuelling your mind creatively! That's a winner for sure, Barry!

The irony is that I'm practically infinitely negotiable. A control freak can actually get all he wants and more if he will simply negotiate for a mutually agreeable outcome. But if he tries to impose his will, unilaterally.. well then the fun begins.

You have discovered my finest survival strategy. May I applaud your wisdom and the sense of humor which necessarily goes this this. I can just imagine "when the fun begins"...I pity the mind which finds you as an adversary.

Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.

*quietly pondering*

Yes, it is...but at a price. Sometimes it is unearned and therefore unworthy.

Marcia, could you talk more about what you mean by "unearned" and "unworthy" in terms of forgiveness, please? See, I think forgiveness doesn't need to be earned. If I don't forgive someone, that heaviness hurts me much more than it hurts them. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves as much as those who've hurt us.

But, can we forgive ourselves so easily when the injured party cannot yet forgive us?

There are walking wounded out there needing healing because their arrogant injurers are forgiving themselves too readily. Trust me on this one.

In my model, forgiveness follows understanding. I find it easy to forgive if I understand, and impossible if I don't. Understanding means I discover the deeply hidden truth, which differed from the inaccurate presumptions upon which I had been laboring.

What steps do you employ toward this enlightenment? Understanding why the person injured you? Or, understanding why you are feeling injured? Your model is definitely worth a great deal if it can accomplish this enlightenment, and muat bring you great peace of mind.

Sorry, Barry, I just scrolled back through these messages and found the steps for your model. Your second step, Surpass it...is that the same as "get on with your life?" Too bad we are emotional beings. There are times I could wish not to be so, but if we were not, we probably would have gone extict long ago.

Surpass means to rise above, to become more enlightened, more evolved, more Buddhalike, more immune from the mindset that gave rise to the damaging behavior. Socrates said, "To know the good is to do the good." Jesus said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." These are similar sentiments in different words. As I model it, when someone is behaving aggressively, it's an act of defense that includes an offensive component because the person does not know any inoffensive defense. Civility is the art of employing the inoffensive defense. Civility is a learned behavior, but it's not taught much in our culture. It's a lost art. Incivility is an offensive defense. Incivility propagates mimetically, since it's impossible to xerox non-existent wisdom. One can only xerox that which exists. What exists is incivility. And incivility is damaging. That's what our culture is xeroxing right and left. The defense department is invoked by the Amygdala, a little known department of the brain that we might call the department of horror assessment. It's not a thinking part of the brain. It's the kneejerk department. It kicks in as a backup system when the wisdom department draws a blank. Which is most of the time. That was the point Socrates and Jesus were trying to make. And one does not teach wisdom by engaging in mimetic violence, mimetic revenge. That's why they elected to die. To teach some wisdom. And they actually did manage to reach a few souls. A few people got it. Most did not. When you have an accurate model of how the brain works, a lot of our cultural practices are revealed to be idiotic, leading to net damage to the system.

Thanks for clarifying, Marcia. I see I was looking at the problem from the opposite angle you were. My response was to the question of "why forgive?" with regard to me forgiving someone who had hurt me, in which case forgiving lightens my own load. Your question, "But, can we forgive ourselves so easily when the injured party cannot yet forgive us?" comes from an entirely different point of view. My first response to it is that we can only control our own responses, not someone else's, and if those who harm others are running around cluelessly (having forgiven themselves for the harm they did) while their victims are still bleeding, WE can't do much about that. One of the few things in life that's within our control is our attitudes. We can choose an attitude of forgiveness toward others, whether we understand their motivations or not, and that attitude can profoundly affect all the other aspects of our life. (See Viktor Frankl's account of survival in a Nazi death camp for more on this -- or watch "Life is Beautiful.")

I grew up with survivors of Nazi death camps, and I saw the pain and agonizingly slow return to what we might call "normal." They had to get past the injuries to heal. Those who did not ultimately died - either socially or in actuality. It was very difficult to deal with from the outside, and most terrible to witness, helplessly. It is a grace to forgive, and in forgiving, never to mention it again. We all understood that, and the subject never again came up unless they brought it up. You must have nown what I meant when you suggested Viktor Frankl's remarkable work. Whether one finds the higher power within themselves or the power others would call God, it is necessary to tap into that to obtain the grace to forgive.

This is a topic that has been a hot button inside me for the past decade or so. I agree with Autumn that forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves, especially when we forgive others, who may be unknowing or uncaring about they hurt that they have inflicted upon us. I've read in more than one place that more than two percent of the population is sociopathic--no conscience whatsover. Forgiving those we love for leaving us is the hardest, but we have become a society of disposable people, to discard or be di carded at the slightest sign of trouble in Paradise. It's been a long time since I've been in a relationship, but my last significant other left me for a friend of mine, so in effect, I lost two people at once. Neither wishes to have contact with me anymore, probably out of avoidance of guilt. They can't deny that I was wronged, but neither has faced me and apologized. I have forgiven them both although both say they've done nothing to be forgiven for. I recognize the fact that someone who doesn't lo e me or who I have abused (which I most assuredly did not do) has the right to leave, but in this instance, the romance between the other two happened several months before I found out and she decided she preferred him to me. Both are fairly public figures where I live and are in the same circles, so some contact is unavoidable. But I forgave them to keep the bitterness inside me over the betrayal from eating me up. Forgetting, that is another matter. I have moved on with my life, but if someone can t ll me how to forget, that advice would be appreciated.

John, you have just hit upon the crux of the whole matter. Survival depends on our putting things behind us when we can no longer do anything about them. Forgetting has made the stuff of Greek tragedies and Shakespeare so long-lived. We can all relate to the pain involved on our own individual levels. That you are reminded so frequently must be painful in the extreme. Mine moved away, so I am not reminded so frequently, but it is no less miserable to remember. We cope as we can in our own individual ways...may we all find solace and peace of mind, after forgiving ourselves, with most welcome forgetfulness.

The Dalai Lama spoke in Central Park yesterday to a crowd of 40,000 people. He said the cause of violence is the absence of empathy and compassion. To repair the culture, we need to seed empathy and compassion, because the culture can only xerox what is there to be copied. It takes a Buddha nature to express empathy and compassion. But we did it as parents to our young children. The American public are like young children without loving parents. Empathy and compassion are rare in this culture. We may have to invent them out of whole cloth, relying on ancient texts which prescribed the construction of mindfulness and empathy.

To forgive someone takes a great deal of grace, which is a gift born of the compassion and empathy so obviously lacking in our culture. However, the "re-invention" of compassion and empathy will be made easier because they exist within each one of us. I don't believe they can be killed in most of us. We have to slow down and listen to our hearts to find them.

Members of the Falun Gong meditative movement slow down and listen to their breath as they engage in slow motion excercise and meditate on the concepts of Zhen, Shan, and Ren. Shan means "compassion." Why are Zhen, Shan, and Ren so lacking in our culture? What is extinguishing them?

i dont think they are being extinguished, per se, but rather have never exisited. our culture carries the weight of the Enlightenment with it, and all of its attendant rationality. zhen, shan, and ren are lacking in our culture because not rational, IMHO.

with regard to Barry's "order of operation"... sometimes, the more I understand, the more DIFFICULT I find it to forgive...

me too.

(hiya Ray... good to see you around again)

Amen. Stacey.

you too stacey!

I have a theory that deep understanding makes forgiveness inescapable. I also have a theory that deep understanding is elusive. Rilly rilly elusive.

Barry, I wonder if the Socratic "to know the good is to do the good" lost something in translation from the classic Greek (which I am not enough of a scholar to know). I would postulate that the inverse is true "to do the good is to know the good." Despite the fact that those of us who are not sociopathic have an ingrained sense of right and wrong, we often know what is right and yet choose to do the wrong thing anyhow for some gratification other than spiritual or ethical (monetary, sexual, or psychoactive gr tification as examples). I also take issue with the Bible's edict that "the truth shall set you free." I sometimes am a subscriber to Jack Nicholson's rant (in "A Few Good Men"), "You can't handle the truth!" Although I detest being lied to (who doesn't), knowing the truth doesn't always make things better either--whether it's a surface knowledge or the "deep understanding" you allude to. This said, and I'm not trying to be totally disagreeable, I do find your theories lucid, rational, and worthy of f rther consideration.

To do the good is to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that one knows the good. In other word, that's an irrefutable proof. But Socrates was saying something stronger. That people do the best they know how, even if the best they know how is pretty piss poor by absolute standards. Never underestimate the extent to which people are ignorant, oblivious, or unskilled. And never underestimate the extent toward which people are terrified. Terror is probably the single biggest factor in determining what people do.

The truth cannot be handled by those in power. Power is a dangerous narcotic. Under the narcotic of power, people do unspeakable evil under the color of law. Unspeakable harm to society and to their fellow man. Most people cannot face that terrifying truth, that their belief in the law is a mistake.

*** The truth cannot be handled by those in power. - Barry *** PLEASE, no more absolute overgeneralizations... I always feel compelled to refute them... a disease I'm sure...

I rest my case. :)

Back to FORGIVENESS, if nobody minds... How do we forgive? With a lot of compassion, not just for the person who has offended us but especially for ourselves. If I choose to hold on to my anger and rage about an offense, I choose to carry around a heavy old bag of rocks. That burden doesn't bother the person who offended me one bit -- he's free to feel quite justified in what he did, and when called on the carpet about the behavior, by me, he will explain to me in detail why the offense is justifiable. Who suffers by my unforgiveness? ONLY me. Nobody else. I'm there right now again, btw. I need to forgive and I haven't found the compassion within me to do it.

You are still too close to it, perhaps. Take a deep breath and go outside and look at something infinitely larger than the hurt is...the glory of the night sky. If it is the loss of someone significant in your life, this will make you sadder and the loss more profound. Perhaps you need to see children with no parents if you have lost a child. Whatever your hurt, there is something out there to cleanse your mind and heart of the hurt and heal the wounds. We tend to self-flagellate, at least I do, for hatever has gone wrong. That only inflicts more wounds...but it keeps my mind off the real ones for a while... Good luck for forebearance, my dear. You are among friends here.

We are coming up on the 50th anniversary of the Nuremburg Trials. There will be some retrospectives. Recall the primary defense: "I was just following orders." Here in Amerika, ve haf lawss. Here in Amerika ve chust obey ze lawss. If ze laww sess to use ze force on ze lawbreaker, ve chust follow ze rule of ze laww. Javert would be proud. Welcome to the United States of Algolagnia. Can we forgive them for chust following ze laww? Chust obeying ze rules?

Well, I'm trying to do just that. But it's very difficult.

Ignorance? Overgeneralising? Hollow buzz phrases? Hey - somebody called my name?

Oh. Switched the topic since... It strikes me that two things are neglected in y'alls ideas - the necessity of understanding events as meta-events (historically, so to speak, and detached from one's hurt - incl. grasping needs and urges of all parties at all times, as this is where motivations come from), if you wish to make your peace with what happened (or forgive, or give in, or whatever), and on the other hand the question if it is desireable to forgive, or what that means to which party (e.g. is this a moral empowerment of the griefed party who can grant forgiveness or not - moral highground that not seldom is abused in worse ways than the original attack would let one expect; also, is the offender interested in being forgiven? And what does it mean?). I'd like to hear your comments.

(e.g. is this a moral empowerment of the griefed party who can grant forgiveness or not - moral highground that not seldom is abused in worse ways than the original attack would let one expect; yes Several religions 'require' forgiveness... and forgiveness is christianity appears to be the means to the desired end... eternal life kinda stuff... so... are those people forgiving because they want to, because they have to or because there is the promise of some great reward if they do (i.e. for their own selfish reasons...) Es tut mir leid Alexander, I think I posed another question and none of your answers...

Stacey, you hit on something that has bothered me for a very long time. The newly self-righteous who know they are going to heaven because they were big enough to forgive tresspasses against them. I do not think the God they are seeking to be with is that easily fooled. I wonder if it comes back to haunt them on their death-beds.

also, is the offender interested in being forgiven? And what does it mean? The kind of forgiveness I'm talking about has nothing to do with whether the offender cares or thinks he needs to be forgiven. How did Viktor Frankl forgive Adolph Hitler? Was Hitler interested in being forgiven? That kind of forgiveness is not acceptance of what Hitler did. It does not say, "Oh, OK, we can be friends again and I trust you'll be kind to me this time." That kind of forgiveness, the kind Frankl gave Hitler, simply releases us from the terrible, life-destroying bondage of our own unforgiveness. That kind of forgiveness allows us to go on with our lives, without forgetting the offense but no longer having to carry the terrible burden the offender has laid upon our shoulders.

It is the difference between being pained by something and being sad about something, no? You'll find this often in the context of working up and reliving (NOT relieving!) traumata. The cause of the trauma isn't gone, but the manic traits and neurotic behaviorisms by the traumatized person vanish. The pain is gone, and all that's left is an *understanding* of things connected (e.g. the pains experienced before, and how it guided one's acts, where these urges came from) and an incredible *sadness*, but a sadness that doesn't dominate one's every step. Just a sadness that you had to witness this and that, and that consequently, you acted such and such, and all the things lost because of this. Stacey, what you pointed at throws more light on the problem people have with this phrase "forgiving", and why I believe all you can achieve - both as offender and as offended - is "never-minding", and not being in pain anymore. Why, Nan, that all would be based on the first point I made, no? Understanding contexts, etc. In the example you gave, it is obvious that most people would say "Forgive Hitler! No way! Those inhuman acts can't be forgiven!", but they themselves have dehumanized HIM. Turned him into a demon that acted in inexplainable, horrific ways, committing crimes one simply can't grasp. How could they "forgive" or understand a demon? In your example, it seems the offender has been looked upon as a human being, with faults and defects like all or many of us. But also with very special historical coincidences, which enabled him to put his urges into play like few others ever could (he wasn't the only one in recorded history committing attrocities - or rather: "ordering them", as he has not to my best knowledge actively participated, so all was "clean" and rational to him -, and there were people who had achieved a higher head count, a d yes, that includes ethnic cleansing, and yes, antisemitism, too). Seeing Hitler this way was very brave, because it is also obvious, many people will attack this man for his opinion, not caring to listen or understand what he means. A pity, no? (And thanks everybody for commenting, not lecturing! 'Preciate it.)

Viktor Frankl, Holocaust survivor and author of "Man's Search for Meaning," was one who showed me how we all hold the key to happiness within us, and that the only thing in life we can control is our own attitude. You can read an interview with Frankl if you'd like to know more about him.

Hmmm. So much for trying an HTML link here. Sorry, can't edit it...

did you mean Frankl ?

oops, I mussed it up too... http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9504/scully.html

Or... to make his name a link.. Frankl here's the code pretend is has around it a href="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9504/scully.html" and then your text... the frankl part... and then close your command with a "/a" in <> and no quotes (crossing my fingers hoping this works so I don't just look silly!)

Of course it works, Stacey! You guys are so clever. I just got my computer the first of this month. Before that I only used the computer for word processing and e-mail...had never even seen the world of http://www.com Marcia is being very patient in educating me in computerese, at least publicly. I suspect that privately she's either thinking or saying, "I didn't know John was such a cretin!"

Thanks, Stacey, for linking the Frankl interview. I copied the HTML directly from my bio on Utne, where I have it linked -- it works in Motet and on my university pages, so I don't know what dropped out of it here to make it stop working.

Geez, John...it is my pleasure to be able to teach you anything. (The man has honors dripping off of him like rain off of a tin roof in Hilo.) Ask, and I am at your service *smile*

Forgiving Hitler is akin to forgiving the unkown innovator who introduced into our culture the quaint notion that society is best regulated by means of rules and laws enforced by sanctions and punishments. Our culture has been mindlessly xeroxing that idea for millenia, nothwithstanding copious evidence that it's an idiotic idea that causes profound injustice and suffering.

I find it immoral even to contemplate the idea of whether WE should or should not forgive Hitler. We may well have been on his side, had we been there. The one good thing about Hitler is that learning about him gives us the chance to question our own good, which we take so readily for granted.

It's immoral to think about something? Oh dear.

Not in the literal sense; it is the same sort of 'immoral' that people debate about regarding the making of a movie like 'Shindler's List'. It goes: how can people who never lived through it think themselves in a position to made judgements? Their judgement is based on assumptions, nothing more, and the Shoah is something so terrifying that it is, yes, immoral to just ASSUME anything regarding it. Most of all what our position would have been. My ancestors were all jewish, and I converted back mysel just recently. But can I therefore assume that, had this been 1940, and had I lived in Poland or Germany or Hungary or Holland, I would have been murdered, rather than a murderer? I don't think so. I might well have betrayed my people like many others. Just so, can a catholic or an anglican, or any other member of society assume that they would have risked their lives for jews, and therefore that they have anything to forgive about Hitler? No. They may well have been a part of the hysteria. Is it ot immoral to assume oneself a victim rather than a murderer when one has never been in that position? To me it is.

Hitler was not the first, nor the last, to act on the belief that those in power are entitled to employ lawful violence against the enemies of the state. Americans visited plenty of lawful violence against Native Americans and Blacks living in North America, against Asians living in their homelands, and against Arabs living in the land of their birth. Violence carried out under the color of law is ubiquitous in our culture. Most of your tax dollars go to fund such authorized, sanctioned, and lawful violence.

and forgiveness means what?

I couldn't agree with you more, Barry. The only thing that makes Hitler different from the rest, is that he managed to catch favourable conditions for convincing ALOT of people of the 'righteousness' of organized crime against humanity. Forgiveness. I am not sure that truly exists at all. What do you think, Stacey? Whenever I talk to people about forgiveness, they always seem to have it all worked out, BUT ... There are always alot of 'BUT's. And I always thought forgiveness had something to do with the unconditional. Can we achieve unconditional?

sorry... the question wasn't really legit... I was just making some passive comment on how we had again strayed from topic! I do have an opinion of forgiveness (and I think I posted some of it before) but too heavy for me right now!

OH! I guess that means it worked. Sorry, I've not been in this conference for a long time.

aaahhhh! you are forgiven my child... by me... for whatever that's worth... shall this pave my way to some oft spoken, seldom seen promised land??? (and the rest of you... please forgive my antagonism... I need a longer nap!)

You mean you wrote that when you were awake?? ha-ha, NO!!! Just kidding, Stace!

Forgiveness means understanding how things got to be so evil in the first place. Our culture has been mindlessly xeroxing the evil since the dawn of civilization. Can you forgive a Xerox machine for reproducing whatever it's fed? Humans are natural Xerox machines.

I forgive you too, Ree.

Wow, real slippage.

Real Synchronicity.

So Barry, how did things get evil?

You forgive me, Terry?? NOW can I marry you for you money then? Barry do you recognize evil in yourself?

Marry me for money now? You mean I had a chance to earlier on?

�growl� That was the THIRD time I've asked you now already!

uh oh... Paul's in BIG trouble!

How could I have missed those two proposals? This is a no brainer.

I guess I forgot to say please! Do I really HAVE to?

We invented evil about 10,000 years ago. For the most part, we invented government to assume responsibility for doing evil on our collective behalf. Then we invented corporations to do evil on behalf of the wealthy. I'm too blind to be able to see my own evil. But I am able to see evil in the system.

If the 'innocent' individual did not posess evil, he would not be able to invent 'evil governments'.

Reading through the last couple of days here, I'm struck by this question: Why does Barry's going "off topic" into the subject of evil (which to me is attached to Forgiveness, since we'd been talking about forgiving Hitler's evilness) deserve some kind of hand slap, and silliness about marriage proposals gets no mention of being off topic at all? Like I said, just a question. Maybe I'm off base here, but in my world a conversation should be big enough to accommodate both diversions. And Barry, you say forgiveness means "understanding how things got to be so evil in the first place." If that's the requirement, given that you may never understand some things, how can you ever forgive? And if you don't forgive them, how can you be strong enough to lug those burdens of unforgiveness around for a lifetime?

Back slap? My hand isn't hurting. And what Stacey wrote didn't sound like a slap to me either; she was merely teasing. What I wrote just before you was just a remark to point out that governments wouldn't exist if individuals didn't create them. And since Barry considers governments to be evil - the evil must come from SOMEWHERE. That was what I was trying to say. That's not on topic either, by the way. Tell me, do you treat your friends like machines, or do you sometimes allow yourself to be ligh-hearted and silly too?

Hey! Some of my best friends are machines! Then again, some of my not-so-best human friends behave a lot like xerox machines.

, the history of this conference has been that it is often difficult to keep topics on topic. i saw no hand-slapping occuring above, and the frivolity was pretty much par for the course here. thats not to say we can't have very serious conversations here, because we can. barry and everyone else is most welcome to expound upon, describe, and defend their beliefs as much as they wish. others are most welcome to participate in these debates or not. i would also encourage anyone to start a new topic of their choosing if need be! if you are not sure how to do that, email me at ratthing@ratthing.com and i'll gladly do it for you.

Wow...a ratthing domain. I'm seriously impressed.

With a PhD in this field, you too could have one, dear!

No disrepect intended to Dr. Lopez, that doesn't impress me as much as one's own virtual domain. I've met PhDs who are brilliant and PhDs who had parents who paid to keep them in school forever because they knew the poor fools couldn't make it in the real world. One thing a PhD must be, though, is persistent, because that much schooling doesn't come easy, no matter who pays. I'm still a few months away from my MEd, and although I've been accepted into a doctoral program, it's going to have to wait unti I'm less monetarily indebted. I'm just overwhelmed trying to pay the bills I already have and can't quit my job.

John, I am prouder of you at this moment than I have ever been before. You really are going to use that mind of your to its best ability. You don't have to tell me about PhD's of various sorts, as you know. I had one of my very own and he is now in another state. Ratthing is someone for whom I have the greatest respect...there is nothing too insignificant for him to tackle for you or to explain for you (me, actually.) I know that is the sort you will be, also. The rest should be confined to the stac s of libraries where they can lead sterile lives...but enough of that. Keep at it...if you need a cheer leader, I am not very far away...always!

BARRY, this time I agree again! I'd rather sleep with xerox machine than with a human who acts like one. John and Ray both have degrees in Philosophy?? If you do, can you answer this: Is philosophy interesting to study? Do you have any idea about the curriculum that is usually followed? TRying to make my mind up about next year, can't decide between 20th century history and 20th century ARt history, so I'm thinking of doing neither, but Philosophy rather. How useful is that in career terms? Not very, I would imagine. Or am I wrong??

PhDs can be in any field. I don't know what Ray's is in. In that sense, the philosophy in Doctor of Philosophy means "love of learning," it's original Greek meaning (philo = love, sophia = learning). My bachelor's degree is in English and the masters in education I should have this May is in curriculum instruction. A bachelor's degree in philosophy is a good gateway degree into law school, but is pretty worthless by itself as a career vehicle. Philosophy teaches you how to think both in logical terms and "outside the box" (you already know how to paint "outside the box" which requires original thought). These skills are extremely valuable to lawyers, though. History degrees are excellent in that you learn to do research before you go to graduate school.

what john said. ;) my PhD is in experimental psychology.

Mine is in Systems Theory and Operations Research.

Acronym STOR? Both yours and Ray's fields sound fascinating! Riette can answer some of your curriculum questions later (after I get home from work). I considered a philosophy major, so I have done some personal research there.

Thanks for all the advice from all of you. It is very useful indeed. I really think I might end up going for philosophy. I am studying, because if I end up staying here, I'd want a PhD at the end of it; what you said was especially good, John, because I've always thought that, should we ever end up in an english speaking country, I'd want to study law. A good friend of mine (you know, the one guy with whom I went to see Austin Powers!!) is a barrister, and I always ask him loads of questions about t e job - it sounds truly exciting. I think I should mail him as well, because it's getting urgent. Closing date for signing up was on the 7th already, so I'd better get a move on soon. I just think it's going to be no use studying art OR art history if I'm just going to regret not having studied the other all year!! Decisions, decisions! I just really don't want to be a painter for the rest of my life - there's GOT to be a USEFUL career just waiting for me to achieve it somewhere.

If you want it--go for it!

Philosophy has both Eastern (Asian) and Western (European) components. You study the theories of the great thinkers like Aristotle, Kant, Mill, Lao-Tzu, Confucius...both secular and also religious philosophers. Some of the latter in the Western tradition include Kierkegaard, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ignatius Loyola, C.S. Lewis (yes, the same one)...Eastern include Siddhartha Guarama (Buddha), Confucius...there's the categorical imperative (Kant), utilitarianism (Bentham, Mill), natural law (Aquinas), Zen (imagine the sound of one hand clapping). It can hurt your head, but you can think in ways you never imagined. I took a course in Social Ethics from a Harvard PhD named Barry Curtis. It changed my life, I believe, for the better. There's also Philosophy of Law for future barristers (I loved it), Philosophy of Education (necessary in my job).

Riette, to answer your question from post 100: No. I don't treat my friends "like machines" -- and when I read again what I'd written in post 99, and the questions I asked, it didn't seem that I had done that here, either, where I know no one except Barry. I'm a newcomer here and I doubt I'll be sticking around. Forgive me, please, if I stepped out of bounds.

Jakob Bronowski said of our species: "If we are any kind of machine at all, we are learning machines." When someone suggested to Philosopher/Logician Raymond Smullyan the possibility that humans were technically a kind of machine, he remarked, "Wow! I never realized machines could be so marvelous!"

Moonbeam...if you don't stick around, make sure it's because you're dissatisfied overall with the quality of conversation and debate here, not because you took offense to something an individual said. Ree and I have already had several (minor) cyberspace shouting matches, but I've found her quick to forgive if I was the one who offended. She can get her hackles up (as can we all from time to time) but if you believe you're right, stick to your guns. As Ray said, there's room for all kinds of differing oints of view and if you feel we're off topic, but onto something that merits further discussioon, contact him and he will set up a new topic. Barry, love the quotes. We are marvelous thinking machines, but terrible data retrieval units! Too bad, in scholastic settings, we are often graded on our ability to retrieve data, not on the originality and merit of our thoughts. Philosophy is one of the few disciplines where that mold can be consistently broken.

Thanks, John. Riette took offense at what *I* said, not the other way around. She asked me in a tone I "heard" as rude if I treated my friends like machines. I was trying to make amends for unintentionally offending her. Now, I'm inordinately fond of several machines in my life -- notably this computer that connects me to other interesting minds, and the water heater in my basement that delivers hot blessings to my FM-tightened body -- but I don't think I could fall in love with a machine, whereas I can and do with friends.

We are a strange, eclectic community of individuals and--speaking for myself here--sometimes perhaps, forgetting social skills during social intercourse. I am also inordinately fond of several machines in my life as well. But I agree with you that we should use things and love people. ;)

Moonbeam, I was pi$$ed off, because your response was unfair to MY good friend here - Stacey. Ask anyone here, and they'll tell you she is NOT the kind of person to slap people around; her teasing is always always harmless. If you had taken the time to get to know us better BEFORE criticising, you would have known that. I asked whether you treated your friends like machines, because your response gave me the feeling that you prefer for people never to play out of balance. So, that's my side. I'm not interested in an apology, and neither will I apologize. I'd rather find out about making friends now. Do you want to? Where do you live? What do you do? And oh, I really liked that thing you wrote in 'My Day's Philosophy' - you know, about blocks. What blocks you up?

ree, i'd definitely go for as much education as you can. being in school for such a long time was not fun, but the benefits for me have been worth it. if i'd a had my druthers, i'd have gotten a PhD in philosophy. but there are no jobs in that field, so i went for experimental psych. turned out there were no jobs there either, so now i'm a management consultant!!!

Stick around moonbeam, don't go away!

Thanks, Terry. Forget it, Riette. I'm not much interested in your "friendship" if you can't give or accept apologies for unintentional missteps. Stacey, if my comment about a "hand slap" offended you, I am sorry.

*sigh* Here is my post which caused so much turmoil: Topic 34 of 35 [philosophy]: How do you forgive? Response 82 of 123: Stacey Vura (stacey) * Wed, Sep 8, 1999 (11:53) * 3 lines sorry... the question wasn't really legit... I was just making some passive comment on how we had again strayed from topic! I do have an opinion of forgiveness (and I think I posted some of it before) but too heavy for me right now! You got irritated when you thought I was 'hand slap'ing Barry I wasn't. I was doing EXACTLY what I said..."making some passive comment on how we had again strayed from topic" We do that. Ree-head got irritated when she thought you were bad mouthing me... (*grin* Brandon will be afraid of you if he and I get in another fight!) And now I'll go ahead and say Chill Out. This community has always had discord and has always still been a source of harmony for me. I do HATE overgeneralizations and I HATE people talking about other people badly. Please don't speak about someone you do not know well in such negative terms. Riette is truly capable of giving apologies and accepting them. I've witnessed it. If you choose not to get to know her better that is truly your business and I have no issue with that. However, please don't throw in a verbal jab to expound on your feelings. They're not necessary and they are rude. Your posts have been a welcome addition to this topic and filled with insight. As John said, if you choose to leave I hope it's for reasons other than discord between posters and misunderstandings over posts.

Moonbeam, I said I wanted no apology, and wasn't going to apologize, because I thought we had each explained WHY we were pi$$ed off, and that was enough. I don't want you to have to say, 'Gee, Ri�tte, I'm SOOO sorry', and I don't feel like saying, 'GEE, Moonbeam, I'm SOOO sorry.' What for? I'm not going to apologize for defending STacey, and I don't expect you to apologize for anything either. I just want to stop being tight-ar$ed about things, and get on with it.

* sighing right back atcha* You said: "Riette is truly capable of giving apologies and accepting them. I've witnessed it." She said to me (don't take my word, go back and look) -- that she was not interested in giving or accepting apologies. Was *that* not rude in your book, Stacey? Or am I just so much older than you that it's only rude in mine, right after I'd offered her an apology? I feel I've taken more than one verbal jab in this topic while attempting to make amends for an unintended elbow of my own. Hey, it's a topic about forgiveness. I asked for it and was told it wasn't forthcoming, and besides that I was out of place for opening my mouth.

She said she wasn't interested... you said she "can't give or accept apologies for unintentional missteps." I got upset at the semantics... another misunderstanding I'm sure. Her comment didn't seem rude to me because I interpreted it the way she explained above... that the explanation itself would be enough to end a disagreement over a misunderstanding. No groveling necessary on either side. yes, this is a forgiveness topic... I forgive you all! *grin*

oh and... what does age have to do with perception of rudeness??

Gentle Reader, You may be right. Age may have absolutely nothing to do with one's perception of rudeness. To find out more about that, if you're interested, you might want to ask someone over 50 (like me, for instance, or Miss Manners if you'd rather) whether she thinks the world is a ruder, less civil place than it was in her youth. In my youth, there was no need to have university students sign a "civility contract" when they enrolled for classes. At the university where I have taught for 12 years, however, that is now a requirement. Students seem not to know instinctively that certain behaviors are rude or impolite, or that they have an obligation to treat each other and the professor with a modicum of respect. (The foregoing paragraph is simply an example of rudeness now and rudeness 30 years ago, not a subtle remark about anything that might have been perceived by anyone to have occurred in this topic, incidentally.) Groveling, by the way, was not then and is not now a necessity for apologizing. And apologies were not then and aren't now an indication that one is eating crow or takes back the intent of one's commentary. "I apologize" means simply that one is indeed sorry for having inadvertantly offended someone, not that one is sorry one expressed an opinion and is now reconsidering that opinion. The gracious response to someone's apology is to accept it. I accept yours, Stacey.

well thank you...

I must admit, this has made for some extremely engaging and enlightening reading.

Moonbeam, what is it that makes you take offense at things people say so quickly? First you were offended at my remark that the idea of forgiving Hitler was almost immoral in a sense, then at Stacey's teasing, then at my and Terry's teasing each other, then at my offering of friendship without apology, since I didn't think I had anything to apologize for. Hell, you seem to take offense at just about EVERYTHING every person here has said in the last few days. And if have to say your 'apology' to Stacey idn't sound like an apology to me at all. First giving a lecture on manners, then rounding it off with a little emotional blackmail? I think that's low, because it's rudeness under a layer of sugar. I don't know....somehow I get the feeling you have a real problem when people don't play it EXACTLY as you do or as you want them to. Has it ever occurred to you that when that happens, it is NOT because they are rude, but because they have minds of their own? Don't you think people can be friends without aving to exchange lectures about behaviour and making each other feel bad about the way they are all the time? Like just accepting people for what they are? Well, that's kind of how it functions around here. People are allowed to be what they are, and respected for it. Not every word people say have strings attached to them. Though, if that's the way you play it, then we'll have to respect that too. Just one thing: don't play headgames with me, because I do not take kindly to it.

You could say that, John, uh, last post for example. Could Ree possibly have had more caffeine that me this morning?

Gentle Riette, It appears you are reading more into my postings than I intend. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain what about my directness resembles "attached strings" in your book? From here, your words appear unnecessarily uncongenial, rather like kindling thrown upon the dying ashes of an accidental brushfire -- e.g., "Hell, you seem to take offense at just about EVERYTHING every person here has said in the last few days." I have no choice but to respect your right to be as rude as you like here, as you are apparently one of the playground managers, but please cease lecturing me about the definitions of a word for which you demonstrate so little regard.

No, I don't think I'm being unfair. And if I'm uncongenial it is because I don't like it when people act two-faced. If you are really as sweet-nature and well-mannered as you would like to think yourself, and as you lecture everyone else to be, you might have started off here with a 'Hi, everyone, I'm so and so ...' Instead you fall in by criticising people left and right, accusing them in an utterly unfair manner, then expect THEM to apologize; and when you DO bother to apologize to those you treat unfairly for doing so, it is in a manner that is half-hearted, patronizing and hypocritical. Frankly, I'd rather be truthfully rude than surface- friendly. The way you have acted here up to now had nothing to do with directness, you were merely being a prune with nothing better to do than talking AT rather than TO people. Other people come here to make friends; I just wonder what you are doing here.

And, by the way, stop adding adjectives to people names; it's irritating.

"Irritating" - Riette, you are priceless! Gotta remember that... Huh, some catch-up reading to do... Y'all havin' had fun?! Good! More soon (have to get some serious sleep first...).

Is the three-knockdown rule in effect for this bout?

That only applies for US citizens. (Neither the EC nor Switzerland would extradite residents on the matter in question.)

Gentle Rie...er, Reader, You might wish to acquaint yourself with the writings of another of my generation, Judith Martin ("Miss Manners"), author of numerous volumes of advice including one called "Common Courtesy": In which Miss Manners Solves the Problem that Baffled Mr. Jefferson Judith Martin �The lack of agreement about manners results in an anger- ridden, chaotic society, where each trivial act is interpreted as a revelation of the moral philosophy of the individual actor, who is left standing there naked in his mores. We must standardize American manners, not only to complete Mr. Jefferson�s unfortunately sidetracked project of developing a democratic etiquette, but to make order of the current chaos and to relieve people of the burden of developing and defending individual choices in the most common, everyday matters.�

Hi, Alexander! What have you been up to all these days? Does this mean the newest issue of Superstar is about to come out?? Nice to see you!

Miss Prune... catchy name... Miss Manners and her equally uptight sister Heloise never seemed much into forgiveness in my opinion. They both seemed quick to jump to conclusions and force their often antiquated beliefs onto others... Perhaps not squibbling over manners in favor of merely respecting each others tastes, opinions, sense of humor and feelings seems like a good bet... ... for all of us folk, regardless of how young we are... Hey Alexander... I bet you could up subscriptions by including a centerfold in your mag... how 'bout a rough and tumble South African Swiss Miss I know... *grin*

k....hi all. rambled through the above postings and it was entertaining, i must say. humans have that unique capability of being human and thus reacting as a human. so let's get on with the discussion. forgiveness: hmmmm....i've forgiven but that's not to say that everything was washed under the board. i don't know how to forget some of the bigger things that have impacted my life; however, to forget them would mean to wave them as having naught to do with my learning and overcoming. for me, i try to treat those misgivings as stepping stones. as opportunities for me to learn. it's not easy, and they don't appear as stepping stones for a long while after. ray, i had no idea you were really a PhD. that's my dream but don't ask me what i want it in (general studies??). actually, being a wolfie means that i am partial to my animal brothers and so my goal is to study animal behavior, emphasize in zoology, and research animal-human bonding. particularly wild animals, namely mammals. i don't know what species right now because so much has already been done with wolves and dolphins. suppose i should find a taper in australia or something and see what happens *gr n* oh, aviculture is also of great interest to me--raptors and parrot families.

Yes, it'll be out Sept 30th.- What I find hard to forgive is judging people by where they come from. Or because of their language. Or because of their more or less refined manners. I have personally made many unsavory experiences with perfectly ordinary and well-established US citizens again and again. Good people, well-mannered, the whole thing. - I have just had a phone call from deep in the US, where some more of this stuff came to my attention. And I thought, fifteen years later, something might have changed. Well, some of you may by now have noticed I'm a helpless naive and dreamer. I now understand why all this manner-stuff - yes, Nan, you were right about quoting that bit about AMERICAN manners - is so important. It is necessary in the USA, because the society there might not have a coherent set of manners per se. Courtesies, rudimentary forms of respect, manners. See, here, every three-year-old e.g. learns even - absurd and mundane, but symptomatic, perhaps - to eat with knife and fork. E.g. y'alls own E. Aron Presley was never able to do that, ate just with a fork till his death. But manners are one thing, means to an end another - here, the question is, what do I use these manners for? Or, rather, if I have no manners, or do not apply them... Or apply them unto others, but don't act accordingly myself. I'm sick of hearing the same things again and again, and I'm sick of repeating myself about crap. I realise that what Nan describes as manners are a necessity in a place like the US. I see that these are things very much implicit in daily life in Europe. Yes, I am damn mad right now - the Spring's own 300 pound gorilla on the loose, so to speak -, and I will explain when I've cooled off. I'm not mad at anything any of you posted, it's not at all related with you. Honestly. This is my life, my world, and it's just your country belongs to that (so this answers the occasional question about what kind of business of mine the USA are, anyways). Plus this topic came handy. So, bear with me, as I rattle my chains. When I feel more, huh, topical, I'll read all the back log and add some more perfectly useless mumblings to all the good stuff above. right now, I rather feel like jumping into a plane, and talking seriously to some folks... lucky them, me broke...

Compare Father Knows Best or the Donna Reed Show to Xena or Buffy. Times have changed and so has the culture. Civility (what there was of it in post-Holocaust middle America) has given way to a harshness that, to my mind, is utterly out of control in our culture. In the fifties, if someone walked down the street with a safety pin in their eyebrow, the cops would have been looking for some sadistic freak who was torturing adolescents. Nowadays, the torture takes the form of psychological warfare with verbal "smart bombs" that go straight to the Amygdala.

Columnist Rick Reilly in Sports Illustrated said that America has become "Wiseguy Nation." It's basically true. What passes for humor nowadays is really just mean-spirited sarcasm. A Texan, a New Yorker, and a Californian went together to a restaurant for dinner. After they were seated their waiter said, "Excuse me, gentlement, due to a shortage, no meat will be served tonight." The Texan asked, "What's a 'shortage'?" The Californian inquired, "What's 'meat'?" The New Yorker said, "Wait, just a minute, pal. What's 'excuse me, gentlemen'?"

And the waiter said, "What's a one-minute wait?"

A third of the way to a three-minute egg?

I can eat an egg faster than that.

I can beat an egg faster than that.

I can LAY an egg faster than that!

You win!

ha-ha! Sometimes being a woman can be so darned handy!!

....Riette! Here's something for ya, from an old book I found "Das Reich der Hausfrau/The Housewifes Kingdom" Chapter "R�cksichtsvolles Verhalten/Considerate Behaviour": "Man gehe stets auf der rechten Seite des Gehweges, damit hemmungsloser Verkehr m�glich ist". Sorry, this joke can't be translatet into english)

Hmm... Which is the funny bit? I think that falls more or less under Swiss law!!

Hah, Isabel, you're most priceless, too! "Hemmungsloser Verkehr" - strong stuff! And Riette - ever the the most tactful polite understatement... So that's normal life in Switzerland?

Oh, yes....

The Swiss must be a happy people, then... (hemmungslos=unrestrained, Verkehr=traffic, also: intercourse) Ok, let's get back to english, and drop the silly german humor...! And while we're at it, let's get back to the topic... Y'all talk, I'll listen!

(thanks for the translation, Dear!)

Isabel, the Swiss are indeed very happy people - you hear it in their voices, because they speak in decrescendos. And have very small families ....

And trains that run on time.

Aye. Whether that is a good or a bad thing? I still can't tell.

At least they are predictable. Here, everything is so laid back that it runs on Hawaiian time...which translates as bye'n'bye...If you want a local to be on time you tell him to be there a half hour prior to when you want him to show up.

And if he's still late, you forgive him? ;)

Oh, indeed we do, or we would not have invited him in the first place. It like loving someone enough to forgive them just about anything, and trying to understand all things, even if we cannot forgive right away. Love makes things so much easier on the one hand and so much more complex on the other. But, my willingness to forgive is first and foremost when I love deeply.

Barry, Riette, I see that unrestrained intercourse makes the trains arrive on time, but wouldn't uninhibitedly trafficking each other lead to larger families? If you forgive my question...

I forgive you... (does that count? ME forgiving you when you asked the question of Barry and Ree-head??? Hmmm... if not, will you please forgive me for being too bold and assuming?!) *chuckle*

But, my willingness to forgive is first and foremost when I love deeply. Mine too, Marcia. Mine too.

I'm not that kind of an engineer.

Oh, but you would not need to be that kind of engineer, since the Swiss regard the highest level of 'unrestrained intercourse' as staying out of each other's way without actually having to say: 'Get outta my way!' THAT kind of intercourse has nothing to do with it.

Ah. Precision choreography. Alas, I am not a graceful dancer. I even step on my own toes.

Ha-ha! I know what THAT's like! We should go dancing some time - then I can step on your toes as well!

;=}

Stacey, if this keeps up, you could make a hobby out of forgiving me!

my pleasure!

I'll wear my best pair of steel-tips shoes.

ha-ha! You'll need 'em too, 'cos Mum's food was good last time I visited, so if I land on that toe of yours, you're done for!

I think I'll sit this one out. :)

It just might make you forget the aching teeth...!

"I really don't mind it you sit this one out, M

YAPP SUCKS! As I was trying to say when I was so rudely interrupted without even hitting the "submit" button: "I really don't mind if you sit this one out, My voice is a whisper, your deafness a shout, I may make you sweat, but I can't make you think, Your sperm's in the gutter, your love's in the sink." --Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) "Thick as a Brick"

Please pass the Drano...

What's Drano?? Sounds like a cross between a dragon and a dino.

gotten that bad, has it...?

Drano is a granular drain cleaner which will dissolve you, the clog and anything that might be obstructing your drain. Very serious stuff!

actually... it will kill you! (i know, Stacey's a buzz killer, Stacey's a buzz killer) *grin*

ha-ha! However did we arrive at this killer bug thang????

Last night I went to a talk at a Montessori school by a leading consultant in Montessori education. He told an anecdote about one boy who seemed disinterested in anything. The Montessori teacher finally contacted the parents to find out what interests the boy had. They told the teacher he was interested in waste and waste management. Garbage trucks held him in thrall. We live in a waste culture. We produce so much waste, it clogs our waste handling systems. Drano is to sinks as antacids are to stomachs. America now has the highest prison incarceration rate of any country in the world. One American in 135 is now in prison. We are disposing of people the way we dispose of landfill. We're gonna need a better waste management system in this country. Mebbe we should look into gas chambers. They worked for Hitler. We'll be needing them soon, to keep up with the human waste our culture produces.

There are more black males aged 20-29 in prison in the US than in college. If we got into the business of gassing in the US, blacks and Hispanics would become what Jews were to Hitler. One difference, though. It would definitely start a race war, because the large black and Hispanic "underclasses" in the US, unlike European Jews, who were often middle-class and professional, are heavily armed and will choose to fight instead of hiding. Inner-city police often prefer to let gang wars play themselves ou instead of intervening or trying to stop them. They cynically refer to the phenomenon as the "self-cleaning oven." The Russian immigrant underclass and gang culture is also a growing phenomenon, especially in New York and Chicago. I've always found it ironic how the marginalized and disenfranchised in our society would burn down their own neighborhoods in riots. The last big example was South Central L.A. after the "Rodney King" verdict. If the rioters--many of whom who were just their to loot--were collectively rioting for principle, they would be more effective if they were to storm Beverly Hills and Bel Air.

Gawd, I used "their" when I meant "there." It seems I'm learning more from my students than they are from me...not good.

"Mebbe we should look into gas chambers. They worked for Hitler." Barry, that's wrong. They caused him problems. What worked for him was the ovens, in which all evidendence vanished. Glad to have been of help.

The most fascinating thing about history is that people don't learn from it.

Maybe they do, but in the opposite way....

After NATO demonstrated to the world the efficacy of taking out a nation's techno-infrastructure, I imagine that the next time the underclass feel like rioting, they will take a page from NATO and take down some power substations, communication towers, or highway bridges. That's the new model for warfare. Don't spill blood. Spill transformer oil.

That's a better model for international warfare or terrorism. If you are looking to make a statement to America's elite, they can replace transformer oil. The only things they have that are irreplaceable are their lives.

But it is never the elite who have to worry about their irriplaceable lives, is it?

and then who's left to forgive them?? (... getting myself in trouble again cause I just can't help it!) *grin* and no Ree-head... the elite seem quite protected from it all. Of course now in America, you (general you) should be more concerned about going to church or school or daycare or any other random formerly safe haven where someone is bound to come in a shoot the place up...

Who NEEDS forgiveness when you get to run society? Stacey, why do you think this strange phenomena of shooting in public places is occurring so frequently in a place like America? Why are the kids over there so violent?

Maybe they aren't more violent then elsewhere, but they get guns more easily...

It's not only kids. From what I see through CNN and the very intense German coverage, it's also many white males between thirty and fifty. A pattern?

I think I've expressed my views on 'why' a few times within the Spring... perhaps in cultures and/or education and/or somewhere else... I don't have any answers, just guesses... my ultimate theory being that this violence stems from an unaccountability which stems from a breakdown in the bonds of a community... lots of other external factors of course... individuals responding to their situations differently... makes me tired and sad and angry and concerned to think about...

I wish I could find something intelligent to say for a change (I know YOU all wish that ALL the time, well, I just once in a while). I tried, and failed, and when I don't, I feel I failed to.

Thinking About Violence In Our Schools

Thanks, Barry. An interesting article. The only problem is that people who are prone to react to all those factors won't be reading such articles; and those who aren't either don't really care, or are not in a position to do anything about it. It's terrible, isn't it?

You know the cliche about the prophet who sees the looming train wreck but can't get anyone to listen? That's me. It has to do with a method of reasoning called Recursion. About 1% of population learn to employ recursion, which is especially powerful when doing model-based reasoning. If you grok recursion, you can become a computer programmer, analyst, detective, or peacemaker. If you don't, you can become a lawyer, policeman, politician, or tyrant.

How does Recursion work?

That's what I was wondering, Ree ree.

Oh Barry!!! Recurse this way for some more discourse on your disclosure, will ya?

The best way I know of to learn about Recursion is to play with the Tower of Hanoi puzzle. It is easy to solve with Recursion, and nearly impossible without it. Yet one can learn Recursion in about 10 minutes, and master the Tower of Hanoi in 15 minutes. If you search the Web for "Tower of Hanoi" you will find some sites with Java animations of it that you can play with. Recursion involves repeating the same procedure over and over, but in such a way that net progress is made each time around the loop. In an untamed recursion, one repeats the process indefinitely without making any net progress. We are embedded in many recursive loops and processes, frequently without the insight necessary to organize them to systematically converge toward a desired outcome. An untamed recursion is like the ninety-nine hells, the quagmire that one cannot exit. A tamed recursion is one in which every step is in a good direction, bringing us systematically ever closer to the goal and to the exit. Computer scientists learn about recursion and employ it ingeniously to solve complex problems in an elegant and efficient manner. The Tower of Hanoi is perhaps the best known exercise in learning about recursion. Another place where it is used is in computing factorials and Fibonac i numbers.

That's the clearest explanation you've given of anything, Barry. Very well said. I understand the concept now. Sometimes I read your stuff and I get lost in abstraction, but this was crystal clear. Cool.

I appreciate that, Terry. Some of these abstract ideas don't travel well in ASCII text. There have been times that I needed to invent a computer animation to express an idea. On the web, I don't have access to the means to generate animations.

You get out there sometimes Barry and lose me, but if you could explain things like you just did that would be awesome.

Yes, he's got some pretty cool thoughts in that head of his.

Just what I said! Whenever Barry gits to it and doesn't use prefabricated phrases and refrains from use of loaded lingo, I (a) understand what he says, and (b) even enjoy it! Come on, Mr. B! Gimme more!

Are prefabricated phrases those things where one actually THINKS before one says something?

It's like writing songs. One never knows which ones will be hits and which ones will be flops. One just keeps on writing songs. I think it has to do with the readiness of the audience. Every day the audience is ready for *something*. What is this audience ready for now?

More stuff that's custom-tailored, made-to-fit, and packs a load? (Riette, pre-fab phrases are the tv dinners of communication. They serve a noble function, are easy to use, work out somehow, but leave the consumer wanting.)

Platitudes might be a form of pre-fab phrases. I like your term for them! Jargonm, lingo also serve.

> More stuff that's custom-tailored, made-to-fit, and packs a load? My theory is that to do that, I need to know with some precision your affective emotional state vis-a-vis possible topics. In other words, which topics arouse your curiosity, fascination, intrigue, puzzlement, confusion, or bewilderment?

...and astonishment?! But, I forgive you! (Is that not what this topic is all about - must go back and read the posts from the beginning...)

Yah, astonishment, amazement, delight, awe, or wonder.

...works for me...*smile*

I think how one perceives of what others say depends not only on WHAT they say, but on the when, where, how and one's own state of mind.

The decoding of a message depends, among other things, on the decoding method.

Yes - THAT'S what I meant! ....i think....RIGHT, Barry??

absotively! posilutely!

The only way to tell is to repeat the decoded message back to the sender and wait for them to ACK it with "RIGHT, THAT'S IT -- ABSOTIVELY! POSILUTELY!"

Is that a fact? Barry, what do you do for a living? Are you a lecturer? No, not because you sound like you're lecturing all the time! It just sounds like you think alot about certain things all the time.

It's a theory, ackshully. I do research on learning theory. I rarely do lectures. More like seminars. And yes, I spend a lot of time thinking about a lot of stuff that needs to be thought about.

What sort of stuff? And do you sometimes think of other stuff just for the fun of it?

Stuff in Cognitive Science, stuff in Physics, stuff in Mathematics, stuff in Systems Science, stuff in Theology, stuff in Social Science. A lot of stuff I think of just for the fun of it, like Puns, Drama and Comedy.