The Forsyte Saga

Comments moved from 160: Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1614 of 1633: Mari (mari) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (10:43) * 4 lines I think a number of us will be up for a Forsyte discussion. Rave review in TV Guide, and a nice little interview with Damien Lewis. I haven't checked if it's online. Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1615 of 1633: Mari (mari) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (10:51) * 37 lines Here's the New York times review. It's the Forsytes, Reduxing Again By CARYN JAMES Oh, the English and their wacky sense of humor! Mark Thompson, the chief executive of Channel 4 in Britain, recently gave a lecture about the state of television and said, "When you're looking for ambitious, complex and above all modern TV, you find yourself watching not British, but American pieces." To American viewers that idea rings with a Monty Pythonesque absurdity that could keep us howling with laughter all season. If American television represents the avant-garde, we're all in very deep trouble (even though Mr. Thompson was right in citing the anomalous "Six Feet Under" and "24" as models of innovation). His provocative remark is especially resonant as a new version of "The Forsyte Saga" arrives, revealing how global and how topsy-turvy the television world has become. In the dark ages before cable, about 30 years ago, British television was routinely, if wrongly, considered the standard Americans could scarcely hope to achieve. All that started with the once-and-future "Forsyte Saga." With its new eight-hour version of the Forsytes (beginning with a two-hour episode Sunday and continuing for the next six weeks), "Masterpiece Theater" on PBS literally goes back to its roots. In 1969 a 26-part black-and-white series imported from the BBC was such a smash that it led directly to the creation of "Masterpiece Theater," which carried on the tradition "The Forsyte Saga" had inaugurated: that of the refined soap opera, in which British class and money give an intellectual veneer to costume dramas about lives run amok. Now "Masterpiece Theater" is a catchphrase, both scorned and beloved, for reliable, entertaining escapes into a cozy, prettily designed past, the middle-brow version of a guilty pleasure. Today's "Forsyte Saga" (jointly produced by Granada TV of England and WGBH in Boston; the BBC had nothing to do with it) fits comfortably in that tradition, sometimes too comfortably for its own good. Based on "The Man of Property" and "In Chancery," the first two books of John Galsworthy's "Forsyte Saga" trilogy, it has the soothing appeal of sinking into a distant world, this one about an upper-middle-class family fraught with infighting and facing social changes as Victorian England gives way to the modern age. Those familiar themes seem fresh, thanks to three stunning performances. Damian Lewis is Soames Forsyte, a man of property and of excruciating propriety; with his red hair, cool blue eyes and pinched mouth, the actor's very presence suggests the complex, deeply buried passion that destroys Soames. Rupert Graves is his bohemian cousin, an artist known in the family as Young Jolyon; Mr. Graves gives life and substance to a character who, as written, could easily have become a caricature. And Corin Redgrave, wearing huge mutton chops, is endearing as Young Jolyon's father, Old Jolyon, who at first cuts off his disreputable son but in old age becomes open-minded enough to embrace him. There is a major casting problem in the center, though. As Irene (pronounced eye-REE-nee), the woman who entrances all three of these Forsyte men, Gina McKee's enervated performance makes the character's supposedly irresistible allure hard to accept. The streamlined, lucid script introduces the complicated Forsyte family at an engagement party in 1874. Soames's sister, Winifred, is about to marry Montague Dartie, who will prove himself a ne'er-do-well many times during the quarter-century the story covers. As the steadfast and sometimes mischievous Winifred, Amanda Root is one of many actors who charmingly fill the secondary roles of aunts, uncles and cousins. "Soames, you're such a stick!" Winifred tells her oh-so-proper brother, an irrefutable comment that makes Soames an unlikely character to hold a series together. And the tension between the old and new social orders, which had so obvious a contemporary echo in 1969, seems more remote today. But Mr. Lewis (who was also powerfully subdued as Dick Winters, the laconic hero of "Band of Brothers") overcomes these obstacles, suggesting a passion so profound and repressed that Soames himself cannot fathom it. When he meets Irene, who is living in genteel near-poverty with her stepmother, he goes after her with the single-minded determination of a man who assumes his wealth can buy him anything. Irene gives in, but by Episode 2 the entire family knows she has a separate bedroom. As Irene, Ms. McKee (best known as Hugh Grant's wheelchair-bound friend in "Notting Hill") is dramatic looking, with pale skin, dark hair and strong features. But she relies on those looks almost exclusively. "I am not a cold person," Irene says in a monotone when her mother-in-law, Emily (Barbara Flynn), stops by for tea and to offer advice on wifely duties. We're meant to find Irene sympathetic, but she seems as big a stick as her husband. Soames and Irene's misbegotten marriage provides some of the most dynamic scenes, as Soames's frustration eventually explodes and he rapes his wife, an act that is full of drunken violence but is also informed by his legalistic sense of what was considered his right in Victorian England. Soames is a self-righteous prig, but in Mr. Lewis's nuanced performance he is also incredibly sad. When Soames despairingly takes to his bed and his mother says, "You feel things too much, you always have," we know she is right, though no one else in the world would guess it. Young Jolyon follows a different path from the start, when he leaves his wife and young daughter, June, because he is in love with his daughter's governess. Cut off by his family, he trades in his slicked-back hair for longer bohemian locks and a hardscrabble life as a painter. He also begins wearing a wide-brimmed hat, just in case we didn't notice the difference between the freely loving Jolyon and his rigid, top-hatted cousin Soames. The script and direction, generally so fluid, at times become excruciating in their bluntness, setting up the simple-minded equation that artists are good and passionate, while the money men are bad and cold. As a young woman, June (Gillian Kearney) falls for a penniless but brilliant architect, Philip Bosinney (Ioan Gruffudd, the star of the "Horatio Hornblower" series). When Bosinney designs a country house for Soames and Irene (he's such a genius that he anticipates Frank Lloyd Wright by years), he falls in love with Irene, in scenes that telegraph their desire with every blatant glance. The other actors handle their romances with Irene more believably. Mr. Redgrave is especially deft in revealing how Old Jolyon's heart softens as he ages. His scenes with Irene are deeply moving as he displays the enduring life and passion in an old man's infatuation with a younger woman, rather than its potential foolishness. By the end of the series, the social rules have changed, the country is mourning Queen Victoria and the youngest generation of Forsytes marches off to be soldiers and nurses in the Boer War. This story goes on and on, though. A second series, based on the final book in the "Forsyte Saga" trilogy, has just begun filming. And a third, based on Galsworthy's subsequent novels about the family, has been planned. Together, these three series will eventually cover the same ground as the old BBC version. And that old version itself, rarely seen now, will be released on DVD early next year. Although the new "Forsyte Saga" cannot recreate the story's historic role in television, its revitalized characters offer a delightful escape. And if there is little innovation involved, at least part of the blame belongs to the homogenized, global reach of television. When Mr. Thompson of Channel 4 discusses the economic model that makes British television so fearful of taking risks, he could just as well be talking about American networks. We share the same discouraging prospects; no wonder it's soothing to turn to the past. Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1617 of 1633: Lizza (Lizzajaneway) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (12:49) * 4 lines Great I look forward to it. Thanks for the review Mari, I agree entirely , with it, particularly on the miscasting. Dying to know what you all think! A separate topic would be nice Karen but don't want to cause extra admin etc Hopefully there will be enough of us to justify separating it from this topic. Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1618 of 1633: lindak (lindak) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (12:52) * 1 lines Count me in. Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1619 of 1633: Mari (mari) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (13:53) * 5 lines Here's the TV Guide review: "the best miniseries of the year" http://www.tvguide.com/tv/roush/rreview/ Lizza, do you recall if that cutie pie Ioan shows up in the first 2 hours or am I going to have to wait another week? Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1620 of 1633: Mari (mari) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (14:52) * 3 lines Here's the LA Times review of Forsyte. Lewis is singled out for praise, but this critic also mentions the McKee "miscasting." http://www.calendarlive.com/tv/rosenberg/cl-et-howard4oct04,0,375968.story Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1621 of 1633: Vera (kolin) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (15:12) * 1 lines CBC in Canada already had the first 2 episodes and Ioan shows up in the first 2 hours. I am wondering what everybody's reaction to Irene will be. I have to admit that I like Soames better than her so far. Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1622 of 1633: Lizza (Lizzajaneway) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (16:36) * 3 lines I was (very;-)) young when the black and white version was shown, but I guess my abiding memory was of the beauty, serenity and power of Irene, played by Nyree Dawn Porter (who died recently). I didn't feel that domination here. yep Ioan does show up in the first one. Glad DL is getting recognition. Thanks for the links Mari. Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1623 of 1633: Evelyn (lafn) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (17:34) * 3 lines NYTimes "Although the new "Forsyte Saga" cannot recreate the story's historic role in television, its revitalized characters offer a delightful escape." Can't wait. I love "escapes", it's realism I don't like.;-D Topic 160 of 163 [drool]: Odds and Ends - Part 5 Response 1624 of 1633: Evelyn (lafn) * Fri, Oct 4, 2002 (17:44) * 3 lines A little deja vu.... imdb says it was filmed at Lyme Park!

Wow, our friend Karen mentioned this to us yesterday, she's taping this today I believe. What is the show time, network, etc?

It is on PBS on Sundays on Masterpiece Theatre, which starts (at least for me in central time) at 8 pm.

I have the book on my table too. Plan to start it too. I am looking forward to the FS. Too bad Angel has its season premiere tonight. :-( You know I have a preference for period pieces and vampire stories. :-D

I programmed this as a season pass on Tivo. It looks like they're rerunning it later in thw week on the other PBS channel that my sat dish gets. I'm going to a viewing party for this tonight at Bob and Karen's place in Webberville. It should be fun to watch with them. The 10/6 8 pm showing conflicts with "Mind of the Married Man" where I'm looking for another Firth mention so I chose the 10/7 3 am showing on our local PBS channel 18 and the 10/14 3 am showing on the same PBS channel. So parts one and two of this miniseries are qued up for digital recording on Tivo.

Nice review in People Magazine. "Lewis's performance is a constant marvel." Get out the VCR, Moon. I'll catch Sopranos on the Monday night rerun.

I am interested in Forsyte Saga for my first official discussion. I loved Ioan as Horatio and in Solomon and Gaeynor, so rented Blackhawk Down. The five minutes he was on screen at the beginning were painfully bad. I was so disappointed I couldn't bring myself to watch the rest of the film. Hope he redeems himself in FS. Wonder if afterward I will be able to stomach another viewing of Mind of the Married Man to see if MB jokes about Colin for the third week in a row...

I enjoyed watching this epiose this evening, but I must say I haven't read the book. Do folks who have read the book feel thqt the tv rendition is true to the spirit of the book?

I enjoyed the first 2 hours very much. It realed me right in and left me wanting more! Damien Lewis is terrifc--the expressions on his face when Irene finally deigns to marry him were priceless. I found Soames to be a far more sympathetic character than Irene. She went into the marriage expecting it to fail, and trying to carve out an escape hatch for herself--a poor start to say the least. Soames was so besotted with her, he was willing to accept those terms. It didn't seem to me that she ever worked at the marriage--just stood around looking morose.

And I loved it when Soames pulls off her glove and kisses her arm. Ioan is the weak link so far, IMO. A good beginning. Am planning to start book soon. Did manage to tape Angel at 12am. :-)

Agree with all. I am disappointed with casting Gina Mc Kee as Irene; she's no beauty , for sure. But I think she could have interpreted the character with more sympathy.I really don't feel sorry for her; she got her bargain.Damien Lewis is the real standout. But how about Rupert Graves..his love story is touching. Looks like he'll be succeeded by Corin Redgrave though:-((

Since I never read the book (and never saw the original series), I can't comment on what Irene is suppposed to be. If she's the type that turns men's heads when she walks into a room or captivates them with her sparkling personality, then Gina McKee is wrong. If she's supposed to be the demure, delicate beauty of another age, well, then maybe she's OK. Throughout the entire two hours, I kept trying to think of another actress for that role. That's not good. :-( Now, Rupert Graves! I've always liked him.

(karen) Throughout the entire two hours, I kept trying to think of another actress for that role. LOL. I did too. Gotta be a British TV actress.But not many of them are beauties. I liked Amanda Root...she always gives a good performance. Re: the book....You know me;-)....The film has to stand on its own.

(karen) Throughout the entire two hours, I kept trying to think of another actress for that role. I enjoyed the first installment of TFS last night. But, I spent the entire two hours looking for someone to play Catharina or Maria Thins.

(Terry)The 10/6 8 pm showing conflicts with "Mind of the Married Man" where I'm looking for another Firth mention BTW, was there a mention? Actually looking for an excuse not to tune in on the rebroadcast Wed. night.

No mention this time around.

The whole time I was watching GM, I was thinking that she was a poor man's (or poor studio's) Sophie Marceau. I did not find GM exceptionally stunning, but rather bland. So far, she has the role of cold fish down pat. All my sympathy goes to Soames. I can't quite figure out what he saw in Irene that made him want her so desperately.

I have to agree with all your views on GM. I think this will be further demonstrated as we move deeper into the storyline, tho' if GM does have a moment , then I think it's in her scenes with Corin Redgrave. Glad you like RG, I did too. We had it running simultaneously with 24, a real dilemma for those who are lazy with the video;-) Costumes and set give the right period feel, tho' it's all so effortless, as it should be.

I was mesmerized for the full two episodes! Lewis is excellent but I have no sympathy for Soames. He is a hypocrite of the highest magnitude, judgmental and spoiled. He wants Irene - he is used to getting whatever he wants and he doesn't care how he gets her even if he has to buy her. If he were not so self-centered he might have realized that marriage would be a mistake. He gets what he wants and deserves what he gets, IMO. I thought about other actresses for the part of Irene but probably because I have read McKee isn't right. I think she is lovely - haughty, austere and probably playing the part the way she was directed to play it. (Don't know if she can be "sparkling" and "madly in love" yet.) I haven't read the book so can't make that comparison (and I remember very little about the original series). But it's hard to be scintillating when you are marrying for all the wrong reasons. Don't forget the time period and the position of women then. Irene really has no choice but to marry as well as she can. Certainly her stepmother is offering no support and is pushing her to marry Soames. She tries to resist but she is trapped by a lack of money, which means she has no options at all. As for how Soames feels about Irene, blind attraction is not definable. Women seemingly far less attractive have ravaged men's lives - Wallace Simpson comes to mind. I liked Amanda Root, too, as always. But Rupert Graves is the standout for me as he often is - an underrated actor, I think.

(Suzee) I have no sympathy for Soames. He is a hypocrite of the highest magnitude, judgmental and spoiled. Totally agree. If he were not so self-centered he might have realized that marriage would be a mistake. He gets what he wants and deserves what he gets, IMO. Woo wooo!!!! What I found strangely implausible is Irene's complete turnaround into a cold fish toward Soames. Initially, at Bournmouth, she seems to welcome his attentions. True, the stepmother (Joanna David looking a little chunkier) is not only pushing her into it but saying she'll have to go out and work. However, Irene looks like she's having a good time at the party, dancing with Soames. After that, she does a complete about face. Did I miss something? Do I need to review my tape?

One of the great things about DL's portrayal of the character is the sympathy issue, we must come back to this theme when you've seen another few episodes! Karen, did I miss something? Not at all Karen, I thing that is an another example of the weakness of GM's characterisation, don't worry there are plenty more to come, hee hee. Just checking...... you are getting it in weekly 2 hour chunks like us?

He is a hypocrite of the highest magnitude, judgmental and spoiled. I didn't see where he was a hypocrite. A little conniving,maybe. (He'll rue the day he gives Ioan the job;-)She knew what she was getting into. BTW Sue reminded me that JE was once approached to play Irene right after P&P.(Can't see her in that role, no way) But she wanted to play Fleur (whoever she is) and then the project was scrapped.That was in 1997!

Where was Soames hypocritical in last night's show? I think he was hoping that Irene would come to love him. Remember he promises to make her happy. People like Soames are accustomed, I think, to having things within their sphere of control. Not illogical given his privilieged background. I recall Mr. Bennett's words when talking about Darcy, saying he is probably no worse or selfish than other rich men. Irene could have gotten a job. Maybe as a governess or something, and then she could have met somebody like Rupert Graves.;-) He's another one who could have gotten a job. I like RG and his perfromance, but did not care for his character. Nothing laudable about cheating on your wife (while she's in the house, no less!) And there's no honor in keeping your family piss poor just because you won't do anything but paint (poorly, I might add). I still like Soames. He is filthy rich, dresses well, and he looks like Damien Lewis.;-) Agree that Irene's change in attitude toward Soames is abrupt. Just because he's a philistine when it comes to art is no reason to reject him, IMO. I hope this isn't going to turn into one of these stories about how the rich people are all BAAAAAD, and the poor people are all noble and GOOOOOD.;-)

SPOILER Fleur is Irene's daughter. Susan Hampshire was agreat success in the role first time round.

I spent the two hours interested in TFS last night, but also was mentally playing degrees of connection to ODB. Barely recognized Joanna David at first, but then all her lines and her delivery seemed lifted right out of P&P! Moon, I hope Ioan improves as the series goes on and converts you into a fan. I did not feel a genuine spark pass between the characters played by GM and Ioan, their exchanging of meaningful glances seemed contrived or flat somehow. I am holding my breath hoping Ioan breaks new ground and develops some depth as an actor. Did his eyes look tired to anyone besides me? Maybe because I liked him so much as Horatio and promoted him to my friends, I feel self-conscious and weirdly responsible for his performance in TFS. I responded to DL as Soames with utter disgust. What an arrogant selfish manipulative pig. I don't know how Irene lasted five minutes with him, not that she was that engaging or interesting a character, herself. Not very loyal to her only friend, either. But I imagine unmarried ladies of her class were trained to be stiff as boards. I can't help but compare this to P&P, where Lizzie was funny, spunky, Darcy was decent at heart, and Lizzie would rather risk poverty than marry unhappily, though her family of origin was vastly more supportive. So far, TFS lacks the humor and warmth of P&P. I'll shut up now.

(Karen)What I found strangely implausible is Irene's complete turnaround into a cold fish toward Soames. Initially, at Bournmouth, she seems to welcome his attentions. She was at least "friendly", I think. Hmmm, believe I'll have a look at the first few meetings over dinner. [Possibly one or two of RG's scenes, too] ;)) (Lizza)you are getting it in weekly 2 hour chunks like us? The first night was 2 hours and then it goes to one episode each Sunday through November 10, plus whatever repeats are on individual stations. The PBS site has loads of information plus photos (on the main page and more on linked pages). http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/forsyte/

I saw hypocrisy in his handling of his Winifred's settlement. Monty had no money but I believe does love Winifred. They're quite a cute couple. The hypocrisy lies with the parallels to his own marriage to a person without means. In his case, he's willing to shell out a fortune to get his wife to love him or make her happy, yet he's not willing for his sister's fortune to help make her marriage easier. (Mari) People like Soames are accustomed, I think, to having things within their sphere of control. Sure, he hoped she would come to love him as was very customary in those times. But, Mr Realist shouldn't be surprised or disappointed when it doesn't turn out a la cousin Jolyon, a loveless marriage. (Mari) Nothing laudable about cheating on your wife (while she's in the house, no less!) He hadn't, until his wife forced his hand. Would he have continued to love her from afar? I don't know. Just because he's a philistine when it comes to art is no reason to reject him, IMO. LOL! And then he bought the painting! Does that not show he's trying?? Doesn't make sense to me.

(Evelyn) I didn't see where he was a hypocrite (Mari)Where was Soames hypocritical in last night's show? I saw him as hypocritical in the sense of being sanctimonious and self-righteous as in the scene where he refuses to raise Young Jolyon's allowance. He can fall blindly, hopelessly in love with Irene without regard to her station or means, but he cannot accept or even make an effort to understand the same thing happening to his cousin - or his sister as Karen said.

Whoops, I did the wrong spoiler, wrong woman, wrong child!!!! Suffice to say that Fleur is an important character in the next generation.

He can fall blindly, hopelessly in love with Irene without regard to her station or means, but he cannot accept or even make an effort to understand the same thing happening to his cousin - or his sister as Karen said. Same thing happening to his cousin? (I thought it was brother....) Anyway, Soames was *single*...Jolyon was a married man.The family was horrified. It was a sweet love affair...but one wonders who supported Jolyon's child those years. As for the sister's husband...he looked smarmy out to marry Winifred's $$$.

(Karen)I saw hypocrisy in his handling of his Winifred's settlement. Monty had no money but I believe does love Winifred. They're quite a cute couple. (Evleyn)As for the sister's husband...he looked smarmy out to marry Winifred's $$$. I agree with Evelyn. Monty is a bum. No job, was depending on papa's wealth to get his start, then he contemplates hocking the wife's pearls! Her family paid for the rent on their house, plus gave her an allowance. Nobody paid for my house or gave me an allowance when I got married.;-) These people are all looking for handouts. *Nobody owes you nuthin'* (Karen)He hadn't, until his wife forced his hand. Would he have continued to love her from afar? I don't know. Nobody forces you to commit adultery. Even if his marriage vows meant little to him (which is bad enough), he had a young child to think about. The family provided for the estraged wife and the child--what did Young Jolyon contribute to their support? Nothing. Another bum.;-) Soames is trying to help the niece by sending the architecture business Bosinney's way. And he'll wind up getting kicked in the teeth for it. (Karen)But, Mr Realist shouldn't be surprised or disappointed when it doesn't turn out a la cousin Jolyon, a loveless marriage. But I think Soames had a right to expect that Irene would at least make an honest effort at the marriage. She was only too willing to take his money. Did you see her expression in bed? LOL! She could have, um, applied herself a bit more.;-)

(suzee), He wants Irene - he is used to getting whatever he wants and he doesn't care how he gets her even if he has to buy her. If he were not so self-centered he might have realized that marriage would be a mistake. Nothing to do with it. Back then, men used to chose the women they wanted to marry. Some women as we�ve seen with Irene would not have a choice. IMO, Irene should consider herself lucky to have married so well. She has an attitude and obviously has no intention of helping her marriage suceed. She doesn�t even want children. I don�t think Sloanes behaves well with Rupert Graves, but he treats Irene well. (Irene reminds me of spoiled Princess Diana). I too like Rupert Graves very much. (Mari), Nothing laudable about cheating on your wife (while she's in the house, no less!) And there's no honor in keeping your family piss poor just because you won't do anything but paint (poorly, I might add). It�s what he knows! He was willing to humiliate himself and did try to get more money from Sloanes. I will always defend the gentleman of old I hope this isn't going to turn into one of these stories about how the rich people are all BAAAAAD, and the poor people are all noble and GOOOOOD.;-) Amen! (diane), Moon, I hope Ioan improves as the series goes on and converts you into a fan. I like him as Horatio very much. But He is miscast here. (Karen), I saw hypocrisy in his handling of his Winifred's settlement. Monty had no money but I believe does love Winifred. I agree! That was despicable! Winifred�s father is worse. He sent the men to remove their furniture. I like W & M. Poor Monty is now left with making horse bets when he originally wanted to go into the family�s construction business. If Monty is a bum it is because of those circumstances. Just because he's a philistine when it comes to art is no reason to reject him, IMO. And notice that their house if filled with expressionist paintings. Did he keep buying them to please her? Very likely. The family provided for the estraged wife and the child--what did Young Jolyon contribute to their support? The family was Jolyon�s father. He has the money. The money also belongs to Jolyon (as the eventual sole heir), and as such they were supported. Jolyon is not a bum, he is a gentleman.

(Karen)He hadn't, until his wife forced his hand. Would he have continued to love her from afar? I don't know. My problem is his abandonment of his daughter, June. He tells Frances that she(June) will be alright. Then after reading of his wife's death, he says again, that she will be alright. She will be the focus of her grandfather's life. What about him and his duty toward her. He never makes a move, not yet at least, to see her.

What about him and his duty toward her. He never makes a move, not yet at least, to see her. When he leaves the house, he makes a choice. It was probably arranged this way. He realises that even if he had made an effort, he would have been turned down as he was with the money had asked for. Those were the Victorian times. We can not try to modernize them.

Adulterer + Abandonment of Child + No Job = Bum ;-)

Adulterer + Abandonment of Child + No Job = Bum Am checking math as done in Victorian times. Comes out = Gentleman estranged from family ;-)

I just re-watched a little looking for clues to Irene's detachment from Soames, whoever observed that she originally seemed to encourage him, that's what I thought too. Looking out the window with the opera glasses at him walking along the pier, she almost smiled. Then, in what seemed to be exultation, she runs her fingers along the piano keys. But next we're watching the painting scene and I think this is huge. He wonders if it's not too modern, is it accomplished, would it look well in the hall? She gets a strong sense of the artist, his/her passionate feel for beauty and for life. The trees show a strong sense of life. She actually turns and walks away from Soames(an unmistakable psychological disconnect.) It is in (I believe) the next scene, she says "clearly we are not suited". Without appreciating the painting for its artistic merit, he bought it anyway. She says "I do not wish to be bought." Small wonder the architect/artist seems to be able to elicit the response he does. BUT...(becoming longish)....she allowed herself to be bought...or was forced into it? (How pathetic was the scene in the rain? and what happened to the understanding, supportive "Mrs. Gardiner"?! And wasn't HER scene delicious as she engaged her dance partner only to find he too would pledge his troth and his $3000 to Irene?) I can't get past Irene's post-coital bathtub scene. No one has mentioned it yet. I did not get to re-watch that far yet. Was she making NO effort? I don't think this was supposed to be purely contraceptive, I felt it spoke more to her sense of violation. If she is supposed to be a tragic figure, she lost me there. And I'm still trying to figure out what was up with him and could water be any more a potent image in that scene?

There was an interesting piece on TFS in Sunday's New York Times. Some of it is a rehash of things we've read before but there's some new information too. Be warned that there are some spoilers: "A Tale of Lust, Greed, and Other Familial Feelings" by Ted Loos A ruthless, controlling family in which money and loyalty mean everything. An ill-tempered, sometimes violent husband and his despairing wife. A world where a code of silence and proscribed rituals dictate social behavior. These are the Soprano-like elements that make up "The Forsyte Saga", an eight-hour "ExxonMobil Masterpiece Theater" presentation about an upper-class family in late Victorian and Edwardian England. And starting tonight at 9, while Tony and Carmela are working out their problems on HBO, Soames Forsyte and his wife, Irene, will be doing much the same on Channel 13 and other PBS stations. "The Forsyte Saga" is based on the first two books of an immensely popular nine-book series by the British author John Galsworthy. (The novels, published between 1906 and 1934, were grouped into three trilogies: "The Forsyte Saga," "A Modern Comedy" and "The End of the Chapter.") (ed. note - does that make each of the trilogies a three-volume novel? :-) "It actually feels very modern, despite the fact that the first book was written almost 100 years ago," said Christopher Menaul, who directed the first half of the series. "Maybe these long-running family stories are all the same at base. They all boil down to the same themes - lust, greed and all the usual things that make the world go round." Among the lustful are Soames Forsyte, the repressed young protagonist played by Damian Lewis; Irene Forsyte (Gina McKee), a beautiful and mysterious woman who attracts all the story's men (ed. note - the main mystery in my mind is WHY she attracts them); Soames's cousin Jolyon (Rupert Graves), a sensitive painter; and Philip Bosinney (Ioan Gruffudd), a dashing architect who romances two of the Forsyte women. This version of "The Forsyte Saga," produced by WGBH and Granada Television, spans 34 years in the characters' lives. "It's very difficult to adapt to film," said Jan McVerry, who wrote the script with Stephen Mallatratt. "You have a huge amount of material which has to be condensed down to the absolute crux." The story includes a rape, a violent death and several affairs - the types of events the writers had grappled with before. "One of the reasons they brought me an Stephen on board was that we had written soaps," said Ms. McVerry, who had worked with Mr. Mallatratt on the long-running British series, "Coronation Street." "We weren't afraid to tackle these big, bold stories." "What interests me most," Ms. McVerry said of Galsworthy's epic, "are the issues of people being trapped by class and by gender, and the whole theme of imprisonment." The title of the first novel, "The Man of Property," sums up Soames Forsyte's obsession with convention, order, and ruthlessness in business - all thrown out of joint when he falls for a penniless beauty. "Soames is a pedant," Mr. Lewis said of the character he plays. "He's bigoted and fastidious and mean at times. But then he falls in love. It shows that whatever kind of human you are, love can strike you down." The series centers on Mr. Lewis's portrayal, but not the way the creators thought it would. "On the page, he was just the man you love to hate," Mr. Menaul said. "But Damian gave it this vulnerability and complexity. We were actually worried Soames was too sympathetic with Damian in the role." Soames and Irene, who marries him for money but then despises him, are like two negative magnets bound together, and "The Forsyte Saga" revolves around their dysfunctional relationship. "There are arguably no sympathetic characters in the whole drama," Mr. Lewis said. "Everyone is drive by self-interest." Irene emerges as an oddly enigmatic figure. "Galsworthy tells you a huge amount about Soames. We know what he's feeling," said Ms. McKee. "When he talks about Irene, it's always through someone else's eyes. We never know where she's really at. She's almost a figment of their imagination. And yet she's idolized by some of the characters." The creators tried to remain true to an era when small gestures had huge impact. "It stays focused on the everyday lives of these characters," Mr. Lewis said of the production. "The drama comes in a look - the way someone is crossed at a party. Or the way someone yearns for someone else. It's an intimate story that takes on an epic scale." But Mr. Menaul, who directed the first "Prime Suspect" on "Masterpiece Theater" in 1990, also wanted to avoid drawing room claustrophobia. "When I was sent the scripts, I liked them, but they were very talky," he said. To "open up" the series and make it more cinematic, Mr. Menaul employed a Steadicam in one of the elaborate ballroom dancing sequences and moved some scenes outdoors. Many of the exteriors were shot in Liverpool because of its abundance of Georgian-era architecture - a style venerable enough for an esteemed family in the Victorian era - and various stately homes in northwestern England stood in for Forsyte country houses. Giving the series the full Merchant-Ivory treatment also helped distinguish it from the first British television adaptation of the Forsyte novels, shown on the BBC in 1967, in an era of brightly lighted, indoor sets. That 26-part version became one of the most talked about shows of its era. "They changed the time of church services, and they made sure the cricket matches were finished early so everyone could get home to watch it," Ms. McVerry said. Two years later it was a huge hit with American audiences, prompting the creation of "Masterpiece Theater" in 1971. The scene in which Soames rapes Irene helped make the 1967 version notorious. For the current cast, the production schedule made the scene even more harrowing. "We actually filmed the rape scene on 9/11," Mr. Lewis said. "We were all dumbstruck. It was terrible. The thought was, 'Let's cancel the day's filming.' But no insurance company is going to take that as an excuse, so we carried on." As news continued to filter in, the cast and crew tried to comprehend the events of the day. "It put things in perspective," Mr. Lewis said. "We were only acting something out, but something very real and terrible was happening in the world." For the actor, that was perhaps the most difficult moment in a taxing five-month production. "It's exhausting to maintain that persona consistently," said Mr. Lewis, who is now shooting the sequel, to be shown next year. "If you play someone like Soames Forsyte," he hadded, "and you've been horrible to people and repressed all day, it takes a couple of pints for that to wear off."

(Barb S) I can't get past Irene's post-coital bathtub scene. No one has mentioned it yet. I did not get to re-watch that far yet. Was she making NO effort? I don't think this was supposed to be purely contraceptive, I felt it spoke more to her sense of violation. If she is supposed to be a tragic figure, she lost me there. Agreed. Perhaps a different actress could make us feel her pain. It felt like she was doing her best to prove that the marriage wasn't a success so she could hold him to his premarital promise.

(Karen)Am checking math as done in Victorian times. Comes out = Gentleman estranged from family ;-) LOL! "On the page, he was just the man you love to hate," Mr. Menaul said. "But Damian gave it this vulnerability and complexity. We were actually worried Soames was too sympathetic with Damian in the role." Aha! Good article, Rika, thanks. DL is such an amazing actor, IMO. To me, it's richer this way. DL's Soames is not a boo-hiss villain, but a mix of attributes. Like real people in real life. Who needs another JR Ewing?;-) (Barb)Was she making NO effort? I don't think this was supposed to be purely contraceptive, I felt it spoke more to her sense of violation. Interesting thought, Barb. IMO, she made no effort whatsoever, thereby compounding her own misery.

he is used to getting whatever he wants and he doesn't care how he gets her even if he has to buy her. If he were not so self-centered he might have realized that marriage would be a mistake. (Moon)Nothing to do with it. Back then, men used to chose the women they wanted to marry It had everything to do with it. Men of a certain class were expected to choose the proper wife, yes. Not always one specific woman. Some of them even married for love - gasp!!! Even in this story! Soames became obsessed with Irene probably partly because she was the first thing he ever wanted that didn't come easily. I re-watched a few scenes earlier tonight about Soames and Irene - she did smile at him early on and she smiled appropriately (as girls were taught to do) when she first danced with him. But she walked away as soon as the music ended. Then she immediately told her step-mom that she didn't want to marry someone she did not love - she did not wish to be "bought;" she told her at the art exhibit that she and Soames were not "suited" to one another; she turned down Soames next offer to dance, saying she would rather not and she was clearly repulsed by the glove/arm kiss. Step-mom continually told her she was selfish and had to marry and threatened to abandon her. When Soames asked her to marry him the last time, he said, "Will you be mine?" and she pointedly replied, "I will marry you." We are not shown the first 2 years of the marriage, but when it picks up, she isn't really trying, I agree. Probably a lot easier to smile nicely at someone you don't want to be dancing with than to smile and pretend wh le having sex with someone you dislike LOL (Mari)there's no honor in keeping your family piss poor just because you won't do anything but paint (Moon)It's what he knows! He was willing to humiliate himself and did try to get more money from Sloanes. (lindaK) My problem is his abandonment of his daughter I don't like the fact that he left his daughter either, but I don't think he had a choice about seeing her after he left. He was banned from his father's house. Now that he has reconciled with his father, maybe he will see the daughter. I was confused about Young Jolyon's income so I also watched those scenes again. When he is talking to his father at the club about leaving and the father offers to continue to send him part of his allowance, he turns Old Jolyon down, saying to give the money to the wife and daughter for their needs. When the father asks what he'll do for money, he says he'll get a job. So he did the right thing then. And when he went to the trustees including Soames, he was asking for money from his trust fund left by their grandfather. Apparently he was receiving the interest yearly from the trust, but in order to withdraw from the capital, he had to have permission from the trustees. He wanted to use part of that to buy a larger home and that was what Soames refused to release. Plus, all that time he thought he was earning money by selling those paintings - he just didn't know his father was the one buying them. He wasn't perfect, but overall he was trying to do the right thing. I don't think this will be a rich=bad and poor=good show. Already there are some very likable "richies" - Old Jolyon for one and even Aunt Ann (loved her "you were expecting some" [of your features]? comment about the baby. I like Monty and Winifred a lot - loved the entire scene at the dance and the conversation about whiskers - depends on "where they tickle" - so funny. But I didn't get that the father was behind the removal of the possessions from their house. I thought it was just the people Monty owed. Do we learn later that the father was behind it?

(Mari) Monty is a bum. No job, was depending on papa's wealth to get his start.. This was typical of the times and the class struction. Have we forgotten Col Fitzwilliam, the dilemma of the second son, et al.? Their circumstances of their class did not allow them to work and it was perfectly acceptable for men to marry for money. If he were such a bum, he could've jilted her when he was told she wouldn't come with a settlement. Monty was treated like a child by her family. (Mari) But I think Soames had a right to expect that Irene would at least make an honest effort at the marriage. Sure but as the Victorian math shows: Man who marries cold fish who recoils from his touch = fool ;-) [the glove scene] (Linda) What about him and his duty toward her. He never makes a move, not yet at least, to see her [June] I'm sure those were the terms dictated by his family, as Moon also said. It was done for the child's benefit, for her future well-being. (Barb) It is in (I believe) the next scene, she says "clearly we are not suited". Good catch, Barb! However, using Mari's measures, quite a few people here should be staying in separate bedrooms from their husbands because they don't enjoy the same movies, books, television shows, sports teams and hide their interest in CF, etc. ;-) (Barb) I don't think this was supposed to be purely contraceptive, I felt it spoke more to her sense of violation. From what I've heard, this was not in the book. But I'd go with purely contraceptive as the motive to ensure that she wouldn't have anything (i.e., like children) to bind her to Soames in the event she wanted out. Her freedom was more important to her. Children would complicate things. Thanks for the NYT article, Rika.

Great job ladies. Watched last night and enjoyed very much. Can't ad anything to comments already made as you have touched all the bases. Irene knew what she was getting into. I think Soames honestly thought he would be able to win her over. And is beginning to realize this is not going to happen. IMO Irene just detests him. She can't tolerate his touch. Obviously does not care to have any children by him, and also feels violated by him with sex. Obviously she is planning to get out IMO. Just thought she cared enough for June not to get involved with Bossiny. So now Soames is going to isolate her, albeit in extreme magnificance in the country. He's no fool. He see's the attraction between her and Bossiney, he comments that she doesn't laugh with him the way she does with Bossiney and he asks her if she finds him attractive and she says yes. Great point about employing Bossiny to give him the money to marry June, thinking this will abet their attraction. Good stuff, looking forward to Sunday.

The "water scene" is very hard to figure because not only were women taught that this could prevent pregnancy,they often were taught that they were "unclean" after sex and this was standard procedure to cleanse themselves. This was at least as late as the 1930's,1940's (or later - I can't remember exact dates that I have read but I think the idea of "cleansing" may have lasted longer than the birth control aspect). If that's not enough, for part of that time it was believed that women were unclean and must "wash" themselves with this procedure prior to sex or they would be too unclean to become pregnant. How Soames and all that water he was drinking fit into this equation is the question! ;-)

(NY Times)Irene emerges as an oddly enigmatic figure. "Galsworthy tells you a huge amount about Soames. We know what he's feeling," said Ms. McKee. "When he talks about Irene, it's always through someone else's eyes. We never know where she's really at. She's almost a figment of their imagination. And yet she's idolized by some of the characters." McKee's performance seems to fit this perfectly so far.(Thanks for posting, Rika) I just discovered that the text of the book is online as part of Project Gutenberg: http://ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext03/fsaga10.txt Gutenberg multiplexer: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=4397 Also,there is a radio interview with Gillian Kearney here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/01_04_02/thursday/info3.shtml

Am absolutely petrified to read this thread. I know there are spoilers in it and I don't know if it shown yet in Australia. But I have heard the name. See what happens when you don't watch TV and you haven't a clue what's going on? Is it being shown down here?? Anyone know?

(Lisa) Is it being shown down here?? Anyone know? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, TFS has been and gone - it was shown on the ABC over 6 consecutive weeks and finished about 2 weeks ago. Shame that you missed it.

(suzee) But I didn't get that the father was behind the removal of the possessions from their house.... I didn't get that either. The recognition on the street as the movers drove past with the household goods was explained when he said he "used them too" which sounded like it added to his embarrassment. (suzee)...not only were women taught that this could prevent pregnancy,they often were taught that they were "unclean" after sex and this was standard procedure to cleanse themselves. That might help explain it. Clearly he wanted children so I wondered why he would lay there either oblivious to what she was doing or not caring. If it was SOP, it makes more sense. Gah! How heartless and cold...not even a little snuggle?! (Not that she would have wanted it!)

A woman being "unclean" has its roots in the bible, but mainly relates to following a period or preparing oneself to get married. "Vaginal irrigation - 'douching' - probably originated in prehistory. But at least from the latter part of the 19th, and well into the 20th, centuries, douching became common, in step with wide-spread Victorian fears of odor and of the body in general. In the American Sears, Roebuck & Company catalogs from this century, a woman could pick from many different models of apparatus." Pictures here: http://www.mum.org/DoucheAu.htm (including one that looks like Irene's contraption) There are numerous papers up on the net dealing with Victorian women's health issues. Since coitus interruptus or condoms were not possible in Irene's case, she would've used one of the more common methods, as described: "From the 1830s on, newspapers carried advertisements for "female syringes" with the purpose of douching as a method of contraception. The syringes were typically sold along with certain chemicals that killed sperm, such as alum, or sulphate of zinc and iron."

But I didn't get that the father was behind the removal of the possessions from their house. I thought it was just the people Monty owed. Do we learn later that the father was behind it? There is a shot of Winnifred's father walking to her house where we see him greet the creditors who are driving away with the furniture. That greeting spoke volumes. Will be back with more time.

(Moon)Poor Monty is now left with making horse bets when he originally wanted to go into the family?s construction business. If Monty is a bum it is because of those circumstances. Parents had to subsidize any son-in-laws livelihood? I'd have to see that in print. (Moon) The family was Jolyon?s father. He has the money. The money also belongs to Jolyon (as the eventual sole heir), and as such they were supported. Jolyon is not a bum,he is a gentleman. He is also a leech. (Mari)Adulterer + Abandonment of Child + No Job = Bum Agree. I know it's Victorian times, but has morality changed since then? Ten commandments (read: adultery) didn't apply in Victorian times??? But I didn't get that the father was behind the removal of the possessions from their house.I thought it was just the people Monty owed. Do we learn later that the father was behind it? I'd have to see that in print. NYTimes: Damien Lewis: "There are arguably no sympathetic characters in the whole drama," Mr. Lewis said."Everyone is drive by self-interest." Amen. BTW anyone catch the front entrance of "Pemberley" in the first few scenes? Where Mr Darcy came down to talk to Lizzie and the Gardiners. *sigh*

(Evelyn) Ten commandments (read: adultery) didn't apply in Victorian imes??? He is also a leech. Okay, he was an adulterer. But how is he a leech? He refused his allowance, turning it over to his wife and child, he was painting and selling his paintings, he had a private income (the interest on his inheritance from his grandfather) and when his father assumes he must be in debt after all the years on his own and asks, he says no, he is not in debt. BTW, in the book it further explains that he uses part of his inheritance to join Lloyd's as an underwriter (don't think this is clear in the series so far).

(Barb) The recognition on the street as the movers drove past with the household goods was explained when he said he "used them too" which sounded like it added to his embarrassment. Exactly, he was appalled that they had been called to repossess property from a place in *his* name. The greeting on the street was of professional recognition and I think the repo men were having a private chuckle at his expense. Rather than speak to morality, I think mores would be better. When OJ is talking to his son YJ at the club, when YG is going to leave his wife, OJ doesn't even hint around that there are "other" ways of dealing with the situation, i.e., keep Helene as a mistress. Morality be damned. The mores of the period would countenance such an arrangement. Much later, OJ mentions that June is just like her mother, when IMO, she is just like her father. Love and passion mean everything to her, but honesty about one's feelings is foremost. Notice the advice she gives Irene when told about their separate rooms. She tells Irene to leave him. I really do like the Jolyon F side of the family best. True, OJ is feeling his own mortality after Aunt Ann dies, but it's like part of his heart was cut out when he felt he had to cut his son off. I've watched the courtship again. Sorry, no sympathy from me for any of them. I do not suffer fools easily.

My thoughts on Gina McKee's performance are this: She is playing Irene Heron Forsyte as a cypher or perhaps a prism; a reflecting and refracting surface in which the men besotted with her see what they choose to see or maybe even better versions of themselves. Perhaps McKee and the director view Irene in more "modern", or perhaps more aptly "post-modern", terms than Galsworthy created her. Is she an intense and artistic woman thwarted from the pursuit of an artistically creative life? Is she the beautiful possession of a rich man who, on some level, views being married to her as an expression of his wealth, and more powerfully, his virility? Or neither? Someone else entirely? As for her look, I find her quite aristocratic in her appearance, reminding me a bit of both Anjelica Houston and Nicole Kidman. McKee is tall, slender, with ivory black hair and porcelain-pale skin. She is in many ways, visually, the polar opposite of Nyree Dawn Porter, who played Irene in the earlier television version of The Forsyte Saga, who was petite, blond and voluptuous. Galsworthy described Irene as being a blond goddess. It been about five years since I've read the books for a lit course, so I might not remember correctly. Quite enough of me rambling on to no end. I am not Australian. Nor do I live there. Those statements will make more sense if you read on. This is a review I found on the web. It's from about 2 months ago when the series ran in Australia. It explores the power of television, in that it asserts that the oringinal is the 26 part BBC series and not John Galsworthy's series of 9 novels. New saga's novel touch By Sarah Crompton August 15 2002 Television adaptations of Dickens, Austen, and Trollope come and go with monotonous regularity, but The Forsyte Saga stands alone. Made by the BBC in 1967, it looms unique, preserved in black and white, an inviolate beacon of excellence. Now, the British production house Granada has spent $18 million on a new view of John Galsworthy's epic trilogy about the effects of sex, money and power on the lives of an upper-middle-class family. In six 90 minute parts, they take the family from the 1870s to the birth of Fleur in 1901. A second series, based on the third novel, will be made this year. It's a grand undertaking. You can imagine the producer's irritation, then, when all the questions at the launch I attended concerned not the handsome opening episode we had just seen, but comparisons with "the original". The original in this case is not the books. Poor old Galsworthy may in his day have won the Nobel prize for literature, but now he is just a footnote in televisual history - the begetter of the most popular classic serial of all time. This is no exaggeration. One hundred million people in 26 countries saw Donald Wilson's version of the saga. It was not the first literary adaptation on TV, but it was longer and more ambitious than anything screened before, and it has come to represent every standard to which British TV has aspired ever since. When you watch it on video now, what is striking is not the oldfashioned production - live acting in 20 minute takes on cramped and illlit sets - or even that the performances are sometimes magnificent (step forward Eric Porter as Soames Forsyte and Fay Compton as Aunt Ann), and sometimes only barely competent (Nyree Dawn Porter sobbing in her negligee). No, what hit me is the boldness with which Wilson and his team of writers handled Galsworthy's text. The adaptation is exciting and radical in ways we have all but forgotten. Although Wilson had wanted to put the novels on screen for years, the then head of BBC drama, Sydney Newman, doubted whether a "costume piece" would appeal to popular taste in the Swinging Sixties. Presumably with this in mind, Wilson's version is acutely nonreverential - he alters his source material for dramatic effect, inventing conversations and scenes, such as the death of young Jolyon's first wife, Frances, in a grisly hunting accident. The serialisation seizes on Galsworthy's central, searing notion - the almost tragic desperation of Soames, who falls in love with a woman who will not love him - and shapes everything around that, preserving some details, abandoning others, but at all times respecting Galsworthy's examination of what it means to have property and propriety. In so doing, Wilson, who died this year at the age of 91, did something much more dramatic and important than simply transposing a wellloved novel on to television. He made it into a confection for television, simultaneously more "soaplike" and more direct than its source material. Its greatness - and even after all these years it is still great - is intrinsic in itself, and not a result of fidelity to the text. In this sense, the current doyen of British literary adaptation, Andrew Davies, so often criticised for taking creative liberties with the classics, is Wilson's direct heir. Ironically, the version of The Forsyte Saga that Stephen Mallatratt and Jan McVerry have fashioned for Granada is, in some ways, more faithful to Galsworthy than the 1967 adaptation. For example, it was the BBC that moved Soames' patient courtship of Irene to Suffolk and saddled her with a lecherous stepfather. Granada's interpretation preserves intact the Bournemouth setting, the financial desperation that drives her to accept him, and the moment when "seizing that moving wrist, he pressed his lips to the flesh of her arm. And she had shuddered". Seeing the wonderful Damian Lewis enact that moment on screen triggers a frisson of passion that seems remarkably modern. Yet there it is in Galsworthy. Admittedly, the new version allows itself some embellishments that will make purists shudder - the reason Soames and Irene fail to have children, for example, is rather graphically explained. Nevertheless, this is an honourable and interesting attempt to make The Forsyte Saga live for, and attract, a new generation of viewers. It looks wonderful, the acting is riveting (though I suspect Gina McKee's interpretation of Irene will divide opinion just as much as Nyree Dawn Porter's did), vivid descriptive details are preserved and the scope and meaning of the books are comprehended. It deserves to be watched and enjoyed. Whatever else we end up criticising it for, we should remember that the 1967 version was good because it was good - not because it was true to Galsworthy. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/15/1029113977093.html

Thank you for your take on Irene and the article. it asserts that the oringinal is the 26 part BBC series and not John Galsworthy's series of 9 novels. Hmm, I didn't get that from the article. Yes, there were comparisons between the original TV series and the new one, but Galsworthy's novels are mentioned throughout, with each series' faithfulness to the original novels assessed.

(Suzee)I don't like the fact that he left his daughter either, but I don't think he had a choice about seeing her after he left. He was banned from his father's house. My point is that I am questioning the values of someone who would abaondon his young child to go off with his lover. It was either/or, all or nothing, and he chose the lover. Bum.;-) (Karen)This was typical of the times and the class struction. Have we forgotten Col Fitzwilliam, the dilemma of the second son, et al.? Their circumstances of their class did not allow them to work I'm aware of that, and at the same time I'm criticizing it. "I'll just prostitute myself for the sake of money because, after all, I am a gentleman and can't work." ;-) ;-) However, using Mari's measures, quite a few people here should be staying in separate bedrooms from their husbands because they don't enjoy the same movies, books, television shows, sports teams and hide their interest in CF, etc. ;-) Huh? (Suzee)Soames became obsessed with Irene probably partly because she was the first thing he ever wanted that didn't come easily. I didn't get that impression from these 2 episodes. He loves her from the first moment and, early on, she encourages him--or at least does not discourage him. When she finally rejects him, somehting like 9 months passes before they meet again. If he were single-minded in his pursuit of her--and saw her merely as a challenge to be won--he would have continued pursuing her during the 9 months.

(E) He is also a leech. (Suzee)Okay, he was an adulterer. But how is he a leech? Jolyon is the adulterer. His brother in law, Montague is the leech.

(Evelyn) BTW anyone catch the front entrance of "Pemberley" in the first few scenes? Where Mr Darcy came down to talk to Lizzie and the Gardiners. Really?? Missed that - I hope I haven't taped over it yet. (Suzee) The "water scene" is very hard to figure because not only were women taught that this could prevent pregnancy,they often were taught that they were "unclean" after sex and this was standard procedure to cleanse themselves. Am I remembering correctly that Irene flinched and looked frightened when she heard the water flask fall to the floor in the other room? That, combined with her whole attitude, made me think that she didn't want Soames to know what she was doing, which suggested that her primary motive was contraception.

(me) However, using Mari's measures, quite a few people here should be staying in separate bedrooms from their husbands because they don't enjoy the same movies, books, television shows, sports teams and hide their interest in CF, etc. ;-) (Mari) Huh? You pinpointed the only reason we've been given for Irene's extreme dislike of Soames: "Just because he's a philistine when it comes to art is no reason to reject him, IMO." It makes no sense to me, just as it doesn't to you. That she doesn't love him doesn't require explanation. One either does or does not. But her extreme dislike and the lengths she goes to offend him make her a character I cannot accept. Another fictional beauty who married for money and social position come to mind: Rebecca DeWynter. She put up a great front, while detesting Maxim, and had no sexual relations with him. She had everyone fooled. Irene has no one fooled, except Soames who is living in Cloud Cuckooland. ;-)

By chance I saw that a Forsyte Saga discussion has recently begun here. I haven�t seen the TV mini-series so. In fact I watch very little TV. But I have actually read the books a couple of years ago and still remember some of it. This is a chronicle of an influential family dynasty, taking place in the transition period from Victoria era into modern age. In short this is a drama of passion, obsession, deceit, power and money. The characters are not one-dimensional; they are all self-centred and have plenty of flaws. Does it sound familiar? Even if one at first does not like Soames or Irene, as the story progresses, they become, if not sympathetic characters, at least merely human. Soames is both reprehensible and tragic in his obsession for his wife. While Irene, a remote and kind of enigmatic beauty, marries, after pressure, to a man she feels repulsion. In the book it says that she refused him five times. Of course, the marriage is faded to disaster� Be prepared for surprises!

(Barb) The recognition on the street as the movers drove past with the household goods was explained when he said he "used them too" which sounded like it added to his embarrassment. I watched this again, too. (What did we do before video!) James does at first appear to be tipping his cane and sharing a laugh with the movers until you see his reaction at the house. Plus, later Winifred tells Monte that her father will bail him out which would make no sense if James was the one taking everything away. (Karen)I really do like the Jolyon F side of the family best. True, OJ is feeling his own mortality after Aunt Ann dies, but it's like part of his heart was cut out when he felt he had to cut his son off. I agree. I think, perhaps, Winifred has a bit of OJ in her - but the genes from that side of the family seem to have skipped right over Soames. (s)Soames became obsessed with Irene (Mari) I didn't get that impression from these 2 episodes. He loves her from the first moment and, early on, she encourages him--or at least does not discourage him. When she finally rejects him, somehting like 9 months passes before they meet again. If he were single-minded in his pursuit of her--and saw her merely as a challenge to be won--he would have continued pursuing her during the 9 months. (Karen)I've watched the courtship again. Sorry, no sympathy from me for any of them. I do not suffer fools easily Fools all - Irene, Soames and the stepmother,too. I still think Soames is blindly obsessed with Irene. I give Irene a little more rope than the others only because she tries to resist and because as a woman without money or real family she has no options at all. She does very quickly try to discourage him. I still like the glove/arm/kiss equation and even before that, she really jerks that hand away when he tries to hold it. What was Soames thinking! -"Cloud Cuckooland," indeed! You're right Mari, there is a break in the story after the dance but I had the impression that he kept "trying" all that time because of the step-mother's comments in the first scene after, plus when he joins Irene at the table I think he says he's sorry to be late. And, I have trouble calling what he felt for Irene "love." BTW, the preface for the online book has Galsworthy's take on Irene and Soames. It's very interesting, but be careful if you read it - there is a huge spoiler. (Mari)My point is that I am questioning the values of someone who would abaondon his young child to go off with his lover. It was either/or, all or nothing, and he chose the lover. Bum.;-) Well, Young Jolyon has a rather cute "bum" - I'll give you that. LOL

(Rika) Am I remembering correctly that Irene flinched and looked frightened when she heard the water flask fall to the floor in the other room? That, combined with her whole attitude, made me think that she didn't want Soames to know what she was doing, which suggested that her primary motive was contraception She was definitely startled. My first reaction was that she had made it through the sex she hated, thought she had escaped him for some privacy and was afraid he might be coming near the bathroom. (Karen) That she doesn't love him doesn't require explanation. One either does or does not. But her extreme dislike and the lengths she goes to offend him make her a character I cannot accept Proper etiquette required that she smile and treat him politely when he was courting her but I think almost from the very beginning he was just someone who made her skin crawl. But if she decided to marry him, then she should have also decided that she could treat him civilly after marriage. I wonder if the book tells anything about the first two years of marriage and how it was between them then. (I've read only the first two chapters.)

closing tags, sorry.

Trying again. (Karen), using Mari's measures, quite a few people here should be staying in separate bedrooms from their husbands because they don't enjoy the same movies, books, television shows, sports teams and hide their interest in CF, etc. ;-) ROTF! Not a ladylike thing to do. ;-) (Mari)My point is that I am questioning the values of someone who would abaondon his young child to go off with his lover. It was either/or, all or nothing, and he chose the lover. Bum.;-) It's drama, it's passion, it's life. I wonder what he saw in his wife to begin with. And, as suzee said, Young Jolyon has a rather cute "bum" "I'll just prostitute myself for the sake of money because, after all, I am a gentleman and can't work." ;-) ;-) Now you are having him have all the fun. ;-) (Karen), That she doesn't love him doesn't require explanation. One either does or does not. But her extreme dislike and the lengths she goes to offend him make her a character I cannot accept. I agree! (suzee), later Winifred tells Monte that her father will bail him out which would make no sense if James was the one taking everything away. So she says, but that is still to be seen. (suzee), How Soames and all that water he was drinking fit into this equation is the question! ;-) Too funny! I will have to take notice.

(Suzee) because as a woman without money or real family she has no options at all. She would if she had any integrity. Her marriage was high -class prostitution..plainly she's a gold-digger. The film is based on the book....stands on its own. Different medium than the book.

(Rika)made me think that she didn't want Soames to know what she was doing, which suggested that her primary motive was contraception I agree, but my take is that she loathes him, loathes sexual relations with him, and their marriage. I think she is cleansing herself of all those things.

(suzee) I give Irene a little more rope than the others only because she tries to resist and because as a woman without money or real family she has no options at all. I've not been able to let her off the hook so easily. Certainly she had few options, but work WAS one of them, as vile as it might sound. Ellen (sp?) certainly made a go of it as a governess. Is there something I missed that this would have been so WAAAAY below Irene that it was just not to be considered? And coming back to the fact she accepted Soames...she had to have gone into it with the expectation that there would be expectations on her. Conjugal relations and child-bearing come to mind. The loathing and martyrdom she is portraying are not supported by any reason we've been made to understand. And she's about to snatch up her friend's fiance. Why, if it were not Ioan Gruffudd doing Bosinney, I think the whole thing would make me just too mad to even watch. I guess I shall have to force myself and make the best of it ;-)

LOL, Barb! (Suzee) because as a woman without money or real family she has no options at all. (Evelyn), She would if she had any integrity. Her marriage was high -class prostitution..plainly she's a gold-digger. You are too hard on her Evelyn. I agree with suzee. Her mistake is not making an effort to like her husband. Irene was brought up well, like a lady. She plays the piano beautifully and has artistic leanings.

(Suzee) Young Jolyon has a rather cute "bum" Off to rewind that tape. Did I miss this? ;-) (Barb) Certainly she had few options, but work WAS one of them, as vile as it might sound... Is there something I missed that this would have been so WAAAAY below Irene that it was just not to be considered? I don't believe so. Her father was only a professor. She wasn't so high class that working would be below her. I have no respect for Irene's actions. In fact, she looks more mercenary in my mind than Monty (or any of the other leeches). She gives him (false) hope that she *might* come to love him when she tells him that she would accept. But she has no intention of allowing herself to make a good marriage. Her post-coital activities show that. Children would bind them together, giving the appearance of a "successful" marriage. If she only wanted to avoid having relations with Soames, becoming pregnant would be the perfect excuse. She'd be incapacitated for months and then could beg off for longer after the fact. ;-)

I re-watched the first episode tonight and DH watched part of it with me. He was very unimpressed with Gina McKee and started snickering every time one of the Forsytes would mention how beautiful Irene was. But I did notice that she's much more attractive when she smiles - it's just that she almost never does. I've found myself wondering how much Soames and Irene's marriage is like Elizabeth and Darcy's would have been had she accepted his first proposal. I think that both Lizzy and Darcy would have behaved better, but they both learned lessons by taking the long path, without which they would have had some major problems in a marriage.

(Evelyn)Her marriage was high-class prostitution..plainly she's a gold-digger If her marriage was prostitution so were many, many other marriages of that era. It was more the norm than not to make an effort to "marry well." But I don't think Irene was the gold digger, I think that was her step-mom who had her hands firmly planted on Irene's back pushing her into that marriage. (Barb)Is there something I missed that this would have been so WAAAAY below Irene that it was just not to be considered? (Karen) I don't believe so. Her father was only a professor. (Moon) Irene was brought up well, like a lady. She plays the piano beautifully and has artistic leanings Her father was a professor, but it does seem obvious that she was brought up for "better things." Some of her conversations with the stepmother seemed to indicate that she was definitely not prepared to work for a living. She was probably still in shock from the loss of her father and the life she had with him.

Damn! Wouldn't you know it? Now that Anna (thanks) posted about this just finishing in Australia I remember seeing it. I think it was on right after Edwardian House. But, *gasp* it looked dull and I would go clean up the kitchen instead of watching it! :((((

(Suzee) I wonder if the book tells anything about the first two years of marriage and how it was between them then. (I've read only the first two chapters.) As far as I remember it does not tell much, except in fragmentary comments and thoughts. But it seems to me that their relationship was not any different from the typical marriage of convenience in those days. She submitted to the marital �duties�, but kept herself detached, frustrating him. .�*His business-like temperament protested against a mysterious warning that she was not made for him. He had married this woman, conquered her, made her his own, and it seemed to him contrary to the most fundamental of all laws, the law of possession, that he could do no more than own her body �.* But he did so want own her soul.

(Evelyn), She would if she had any integrity. Her marriage was high -class prostitution..plainly she's a gold-digger. (Moon)You are too hard on her Evelyn. I agree with suzee. Her mistake is not making an effort to like her husband. Irene was brought up well, like a lady. She plays the piano beautifully and has artistic leanings. The latter still does not give one integrity. (Suzee) If her marriage was prostitution so were many, many other marriages of that era. It was more the norm than not to make an effort to "marry well." True. But they didn't go on sabotaging the relationship. Hey, Charlotte made it with Mr. Collins. Now, that girl had a stategy;-) (Suzee) But I don't think Irene was the gold digger, I think that was her step-mom who had her hands firmly planted on Irene's back pushing her into that marriage. Irene's step-mother was a gold-digger too!Bemoaning the fact that the ole man only left them 100 Pounds a year.Besides, she wanted Irene out of the way because she was interferring with her own suitors.

Now, don't read on ahead, but I found this Damien Lewis website that has done episode recaps, with commentary on various scenes. Definitely read the right-hand column. The subject titles are a scream (certainly much like we would have for ODB) and I loved the description of DL's look after he tries kissing her arm in public as "constipated." LOL! I thought the same. BTW, it is very evident that the content of each episode as shown in the US is not the same as in the UK. Our little PBS has no doubt been editing out scenes to make room for the patronizing commentary of Russell Baker. Blech! http://www.chgoredhead2001.com/DamianLewis/ForsyteRecaps/Ep1.html

Suzee mentioned earlier about the book's preface, which is online, and has huge spoilers in it. I found Galsworthy's comments quite interesting:The figure of Irene, never, as the reader may possibly have observed, present, except through the senses of other characters, is a concretion of disturbing Beauty impinging on a possessive world. One has noticed that readers, as they wade on through the salt waters of the Saga, are inclined more and more to pity Soames, and to think that in doing so they are in revolt against the mood of his creator. Far from it! He, too, pities Soames, the tragedy of whose life is the very simple, uncontrollable tragedy of being unlovable, without quite a thick enough skin to be thoroughly unconscious of the fact. Not even Fleur loves Soames as he feels he ought to be loved. But in pitying Soames, readers incline, perhaps, to animus against Irene: After all, they think, he wasn't a bad fellow, it wasn't his fault; she ought to have forgiven him, and so on! And, taking sides, they lose perception of the simple truth, which underlies the whole story, that where sex attraction is utterly and definitely lacking in one partner to a union, no amount of pity, or reason, or duty, or what not, can overcome a repulsion implicit in Nature. Whether it ought to, or no, is beside the point; because in fact it never does. And where Irene seems hard and cruel, as in the Bois de Boulogne, or the Goupenor Gallery, she is but wisely realistic--knowing that the least concession is the inch which precedes the impossible, the repulsive ell.Ya see? Even Galsworthy says that Soames is "unlovable." ;-)

a repulsion implicit in Nature. Ah. Matter and anti-matter. Stripes and solids. Sandals and socks. Soames and Irene. Just because. Can't fight karma. At first I thought it too easy an answer, but I'm at work and it does not take much looking around to identify my own Soames (high repulsion factor.) --------->this is me sliding over (just a little) to the "poor Irene" camp. (OK, did I do the "greater than" thing right? Hope I don't wreck the board)

So glad Mari directed me here. I am loving The Saga, eps one and two. Here is this week's New Yorker review. So many reviewers in the UK and here did not like Gina McKee. A friend of mine noted that it is the women reviewers who did not like her performance more so than the male ones. I thought she captured so well, in body and face as she climbed the stairs, that awful experience of having to go to bed with someone you despise. I love Montague Dartie! Must look up more on Ben Miles. Does anyone think Amanda Root looked a little old for the younger Winifred? Of course, since Persuasion, she can do no wrong in my eyes. And young Jolie's hair, Louisa!!! ****************************************** PORTRAIT OF A MARRIAGE by HILTON ALS "The Forsyte Saga" revisited. Issue of 2002-10-14 and 21 Posted 2002-10-07 As Irene Forsyte, in the new, eight-part Masterpiece Theatre version of "The Forsyte Saga" (based on the first two books of the trilogy by the Nobel Prize-winning novelist John Galsworthy), Gina McKee calls the term "Galsworthian pale" to mind. It's an invented phrase, but apt, when it comes to describing both the coolness of McKee's temperament and the white, white skin that she wears like an alabaster shield-to protect her against the brutal physical and psychological demands of her husband, Soames Forsyte (Damian Lewis). McKee, who played Hugh Grant's wheelchair-bound ex-girlfriend in the 1999 film "Notting Hill," and a waitress in search of love in the same year's "Wonderland," must have exercised an extraordinary amount of discipline to flatten and mute her colorful modern edge; here she delivers a masterly performance as a woman trapped in the upper-class fiction of Victorian respectability, dying for the truth. She is just what Galsworthy (whom Virginia Woolf once called a "stuffed shirt") must have been getting at when he first envisioned Irene. In his cooked-up prose, he writes, "The gods had given Irene dark brown eyes and golden hair, that strange combination, provocative of men's glances." He goes on, "The full, soft pallor of her neck and shoulders, above a gold-colored frock, gave to her personality an alluring strangeness." In McKee, that "strangeness" comes out in her rare, slow, and deliberate enunciation; her internal life, her search for love outside her empty marriage, keeps her mostly silent as she watches desperately for an escape route. You sense that if she were to open her mouth she'd start to scream and never stop. When we are first introduced to Irene in "The Forsyte Saga"-the first installment aired on PBS on October 6th-she is living with her stepmother, Mrs. Heron (Joanna David), in Bournemouth. Irene is a middle-class provincial girl with few prospects for a successful marriage (she does not have an impressive dowry). She has been trained, as many young women at the time were, to be "at home." Her natural intelligence, sensitivity, and wit all go into her efforts to perfect her skills as a pianist. The rest she blocks out: her grief over her father's death, her stepmother's dreary clucking about cash and position, and, eventually, the unwelcome attentions of a young London solicitor, Soames Forsyte. Stiff-necked, stiff-lipped, and with stiff red hair, Soames is the beloved child of the Forsyte family and the heir apparent not only to its fortune but also to its long-standing imperialist ideals-maintain order at all costs, bear your burdens lightly, and keep the class distinctions clear. His cousin Young Jolyon (the sweet-faced Rupert Graves), who is first in line to the Forsyte throne, has been virtually disinherited, having left his wife and his daughter, June, for June's governess, Helene (Amanda Ooms). Soames's sister, Winifred (Amanda Root), has married a bounder and a cad named Montague Dartie (the suitably creepy Ben Miles). In the huge extended family, then, Soames is the only truly "correct" Forsyte. The melodrama of Galsworthy's trilogy filled twenty-six episodes in the first adaptation of "The Forsyte Saga," which aired in the United States in 1969, and was, at the time, the most ambitious series of its kind. Its power, as I recall, lay in its ability to persuade American viewers to give in to their closet Anglophilia. Since then, however, Americans have picked up another white man's burden-Tony Soprano's-and the flushed cheeks, the rustlings of silk, the tinkling of servants' bells that adorned the decline of an Empire would make precious little sense now if the producer of the new series, Sita Williams, had not incorporated some critical distance into the enterprise. Without sacrificing narrative-or the superficial thrill to be got out of simply examining the gleaming objects on Irene Forsyte's dressing table-the "Saga" has been adapted to our times, by Jan McVerry and Stephen Mallatratt, who have given it a distinctly feminist slant. From the first, we're made to feel both Irene's disgust and Soames's neurotic need to possess what he cannot have-Irene's love. Soames's idea of marriage is based on what he sees as his mother's devotion to his father, a man whom she never loved, but whom she tolerated and made a home for. Why, he wonders, is Irene unwilling to do the same? It is his right, after all-he has bought and paid for a wife, and isn't it her duty to love him in precisely the way his imagination and experience dictate? But the world order, as Soames has known it, is crumbling. There is the Boer War, and there is Irene. He has installed her in some of the most tastefully decorated rooms in London, but she wanders through them like a ghost who will never be at rest. And when she is forced to grant Soames his "conjugal rights" her pale face turns even whiter. Foreplay, tenderness-all this is beyond Soames. In one awful scene, Soames, drunk and sick with rage, rapes Irene; after another encounter, we watch her stumble to the bathroom to wash his semen off. Whether Irene submits to his rough advances or doesn't, Soames remains resolute in his confusion and his frustration. The only person who truly recognizes Irene's pain is another woman, her housekeeper. But Irene, constrained by the rules of class, cannot even respond to the housekeeper's sympathetic looks. This is not to say that Soames doesn't love Irene. He does. But for him love cannot be separated from conquest and possession. When his mother tells him that, as a boy, he had a kitten he loved so much that he overfed it, making it ill and nearly killing it, Soames cries out, in a voice loaded with self-pity, "But I loved it!" (Damian Lewis is at his most effective when he lets us see the little boy beneath the air of entitlement and the plus-fours, rather than the man who is incapable of accepting the fact that the privilege he was born to is going to have to go through a few readjustments.) In a further effort to turn Irene into a "proper" wife (and, perhaps, to get her away from embarrassing family gossip), Soames buys some property outside London. He plans to build a mansion there and hires as his architect Philip Bosinney (Ioan Gruffudd), the fianc� of his cousin June (Gillian Kearney). June, of course, is the daughter whom Young Jolyon abandoned when he took up with the governess, and who has been reared and protected by the Forsytes. Her grandfather Old Jolyon (Corin Redgrave)-the Forsyte family patriarch-will allow her to marry Bosinney if he can manage to bring in four hundred pounds a year. Soames pays him that and more, without realizing, at first, that Irene is falling in love with the penniless architect. As a woman in love, McKee retains her cool, but then her love is something that she must lie about in order to protect it, just as she has had to lie to Soames in order to keep a roof over her head. It's the unravelling of one lie (her marriage) and the deepening of another (her pledge to protect Bosinney from Soames) that makes McKee's performance almost unbearable to watch. She projects nakedness and duplicity at the same time. In one pivotal scene, Irene wears a red dress to a ball. Her lover insists on dancing with her, and they waltz unaware through a sea of shocked red faces. The scene has the terrifying power of the ball scene in Vincente Minnelli's adaptation of "Madame Bovary." We see Irene and Bosinney in love, and we see tragedy heading straight for them, like the force of the sexuality that twirls them on and on. None of this can last. Bosinney must die, indirectly, by Soames's hand. That's the way imperialism works: it crushes the disenfranchised. And when he dies, leaving Irene without love, McKee is listless with grief. Her pallor becomes a shroud of skin. She is mourning her sex. She cannot be forgiven for the crime that neither she nor Soames nor any other Forsyte can name without averting his eyes: having been born a woman.

Ya see? Even Galsworthy says that Soames is "unlovable." ;-) Who cares? Galsworthy ,is long since gone; that's the book. And Damian Lewis doesn't play Soames that way;-) Hey, I'm not ready to canonize the guy , but IMO Irene got more than what she deserved. Thanks for the DL website, but I think I want to keep focused on the film and not be prejudiced. Will read it at the end.

I am reading the book - trying to do it on the side while I finish another book, but I am really enjoying it. It is easy reading and addictive. How did I miss this book in the past? The adaptation does seem to be very, very close to the book. Huge chunks of dialogue in the series come from the book verbatim. I promise not to dwell on the book (Evelyn!) or get ahead of the series, but.......Ceirdre mentioned before that Soames asked Irene to marry him many times. This was over a year and one-half period, during which time he "besieged" her and kept her other admirers away with his "constant presence." He would not accept "no" as an answer and once she accepted, he saw her as his property - he lumped her in with his furniture, etc. He "owned" her -or wanted to own her in that same way. And he didn't choose Bosinney to build the house to help June. he simply was determined to get Irene away from friends and a life in London and he thought she would find it harder to protest the house in the country if her est friend's fellow was doing the building. I don't think there is a charitable one in Soames body. I am not inclined to spare pity for him!!!

(Evelyn)And Damian Lewis doesn't play Soames that way;-) (Crossing postings again) I saw Lewis as Soames exactly that way in the first 2 episodes. BTW, did anyone see Gina McKee in Notting Hill? I was reading her credits and made the connection. She was HG's friend in the wheelchair. I seem to remember liking her character, although I didn't really like the movie. I would like to take another look now though. If I am remembering correctly, she was certainly very different in that role.

"The gods had given Irene dark brown eyes and golden hair, that strange combination, provocative of men's glances." I'm missing something here...I don't see her as provocative.Maybe "golden hair" might have helped.The word "boring" comes to mind.I'm optimistic she'll improve in Episode 3. Hope springs that Bosinney might stir up her hormones a bit. BTW, did anyone see Gina McKee in Notting Hill? Yes...liked her, the movie and the soundtrack:-))) Thanks Murph for the NYer review.Maybe the reviewer saw the UK version;-)

I just read the New Yorker review and see they mentioned the Notting Hill part. I'm glad to see McKee getting some praise. I think she is very good - better IMO than the first Irene. (New Yorker)"You sense that if she were to open her mouth she'd start to scream and never stop." An excellent description. (Mary)I thought she captured so well, in body and face as she climbed the stairs, that awful experience of having to go to bed with someone you despise Ugh! Yes, I agree. And a very, very, very looooong walk upstairs that would be. LOL (Thanks for posting the article.)

I don't think this link has been posted for Rupert Graves' website. It has some pics and info about TFS, although not as much as Lewis' site. http://www.rupert-graves.com/

(suzee) and see they mentioned the Notting Hill part. I'm glad to see McKee getting some praise. That's nuthin! They mentioned Wonderland, which absolutely blew me away. McKee is one of the main characters and she's wonderful in it. (Barb) this is me sliding over (just a little) to the "poor Irene" camp. LOL! I still don't feel sorry for her. She should've gone to work, being the middle-class girl she was. I see governess written all over her. Given the choices she's made, she doesn't even try to make anything positive out of her situation (i.e., become something, a grand hostess, work for a charitable org, anything!) (Suzee) I don't think there is a charitable one in Soames body. Even without the "b" I'm in agreement. ;-) (New Yorker) Soames's idea of marriage is based on what he sees as his mother's devotion to his father, a man whom she never loved, but whom she tolerated and made a home for. Why, he wonders, is Irene unwilling to do the same? It is his right, after all-he has bought and paid for a wife, and isn't it her duty to love him in precisely the way his imagination and experience dictate? Hmmm, have they told us this?

I love the DL website - thanks Karen. ("Money can't buy me love" tra la ), but how annoying that PBS is cutting the episodes. I like Russell Baker very much, but not that much. Apparently the entire thing is already available on DVD with the complete U.K. broadcast edition, "Making-of" featurette; behind-the-scenes photos and cast biographies, Barnes and Noble: http://video.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?ean=54961528998 Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B00006FHZE/002-5840521-6484045

(Karen)Even without the "b" I'm in agreement. ;-) Sorry, Yapp apparently doesn't always like it when I type elsewhere and paste. As if I don't make enough mistakes on my own without Yapp's help!! (New Yorker) Soames's idea of marriage is based on what he sees as his mother's devotion to his father, a man whom she never loved, but whom she tolerated and made a home for. Why, he wonders, is Irene unwilling to do the same? It is his right, after all-he has bought and paid for a wife, and isn't it her duty to love him in precisely the way his imagination and experience dictate? (Karen)Hmmm, have they told us this? In the book, yes. I don't think so in the series so far.

FYI, Yapp drops a single letter every so many lines. An endearing idiosyncrasy. ;-) So far, all I can tell is that the episodes aren't ending in the same place. We don't know what scenes are being sacrificed. :-(

I see no evidence on that DL site that anything has been cut by PBS. Where do you get that sense? (New Yorker) From the first, we're made to feel both Irene's disgust and Soames's neurotic need to possess what he cannot have-Irene's love. Soames's idea of marriage is based on what he sees as his mother's devotion to his father, a man whom she never loved, but whom she tolerated and made a home for. Thanks for the New Yorker review, Murph. Using the snippet above, I conclude that this writer is obviously influenced by what is in the book. I can only draw conclusions based on the 2 episodes I've seen and will confine my comments to those. Irene is a middle-class provincial girl with few prospects for a successful marriage (she does not have an impressive dowry). Let me pose this question to the group: who did middle-class provincial boys marry???? By this description, Soames is above her station. Why wouldn't she have choices from among her own class? Or is that not good enough for her? Soames is the beloved child of the Forsyte family There! He's not unlovable!;-)

I'm missing something here...I don't see her as provocative....The word "boring" comes to mind Yes. She seemed so languid and empty right from the start - it's not like she only became dull and lifeless after the wedding. I can accept that as perhaps being fashionable during that era, but "provocative"? (Karen) Given the choices she's made, she doesn't even try to make anything positive out of her situation (i.e., become something, a grand hostess, work for a charitable org, anything!) She's supposed to be so aesthetically aware (this being one reason she despises her philistine husband), so why not do something to support the arts? It's sad to have to live without romantic love, but she has plenty of resources to allow her to bring other sources of enjoyment into her life. But instead she's chosen the pathetic, self-pitying route. Well, anyhow, it saves me from the need to pity her - she's got that covered all by herself.

Irene is a middle-class provincial girl with few prospects for a successful marriage (she does not have an impressive dowry). Mari says: Let me pose this question to the group: who did middle-class provincial boys marry???? By this description, Soames is above her station. Why wouldn't she have choices from among her own class? Or is that not good enough for her? ******************************** I think it was not good enough for her step-mother. The woman was aiming high, money-wise, for herself and for Irene, and Soames, an unexpectedly big fish, swam right into their ocean. I have the feeling too, that Irene was something of a snob and a dreamer. She was looking for a romantic ideal in a man. I don't see a provincial farmer or clerk filling that desire. Look at Bosinney, not any money, but great connections and a look Bronte readers, as I imagine she was, would love. It is almost impossible for us today, it seems to me, to put ourselves in the place of an Irene. In her mind, there was no way out of her situation, and Soames was there and waiting. Her mistake was to think she could control him, and his was to love her with a passion he could not control. That New Yorker reviewer did have a lot of spoilers in his review. Sorry about that. Should have put it at the top of the review. Did anyone else think of Dorothy in Middelmarch, marrying a man she did not love, and loving another? The difference is, of course, that Dorothy had the money to make any choice she wanted.

(Karen) BTW, it is very evident that the content of each episode as shown in the US is not the same as in the UK. Our little PBS has no doubt been editing out scenes to make room for the patronizing commentary of Russell Baker. Blech! (Mari) I see no evidence on that DL site that anything has been cut by PBS. Where do you get that sense? It appears that way at first glance but on second look, it is just that the series is cut and shown differently - the BBC apparently was in 6 episodes and the PBS series is being shown in 8 episodes so we are seeing the same thing, but not corresponding perfectly to the DL episode guides.

(Karen) Given the choices she's made, she doesn't even try to make anything positive out of her situation (Rika) She's supposed to be so aesthetically aware (this being one reason she despises her philistine husband), so why not do something to support the arts? She's using all her energy to keep her mouth shut, hold in that scream and "look desperately for an escape route.":-)))

(Suzee) She's using all her energy to keep her mouth shut, hold in that scream and look desperately for an escape route.":-))) POOR IRENE�!!!

(Suzee) the BBC apparently was in 6 episodes and the PBS series is being shown in 8 episodes so we are seeing the same thing, but not corresponding perfectly to the DL episode guides. *mental head slap* You've solved it. (Murph) I think it was not good enough for her step-mother. The woman was aiming high, money-wise, for herself and for Irene, and Soames, an unexpectedly big fish, swam right into their ocean. Frankly, I think her step-mother would've married her off to practically anyone--so she wouldn't have to spend any of her paltry annual income on Irene. But the step-mother was looking to hook another one herself.

(Moon) Too bad Angel has its season premiere tonight. :-( You know I have a preference for period pieces and vampire stories. :-D So then, did you watch 'Forever Knight'??? :-)) Pics and info about the original series (watch out for spoilers down the page): http://www.ceejbot.com/EricPorter/Forsyte/ CT Now Forsyte' Earns Title Of `Saga' October 5, 2002 By ROGER CATLIN, Courant TV Critic If you're among those who assume you've missed the pinnacle of television by failing to sign up for HBO, take heart. Even if you've declined the myriad channels of basic cable and have left your TV fare entirely up to broadcast networks, don't worry. You still can take part in one of the season's best events. The height of commercial-free TV entertainment is yours starting Sunday with the two-hour premiere of a lavish new eight-hour production of "The Forsyte Saga" on public broadcasting. The last time John Galsworthy's irresistible story of temptation and betrayal amid the British aristocracy made it to TV, in a 26-episode black-and-white import in 1969, it altered Sunday-night viewing as we knew it. PBS found that there was enough of an audience for episodic, quality British-made drama to create "Masterpiece Theater." More than 30 years later, the venerable showcase offers a lush, sharply written new version of the saga from Granada TV. With all the splendor expected in an imported period piece that covers the last quarter of the 19th century, "The Forsyte Saga" excels largely in its striking acting. That's obvious from the first moments when, in a very short time, the various personalities of the large Forsythe clan stand out. The first episode concerns an artistic young Forsyte who throws over his wife and daughter to fall for a governess. But most of the epic follows the story of his cousin Soames Forsyte and his efforts to find a wife, which is done in a manner as fastidious as what he displays as a London solicitor. Soames spies an ethereal beauty at the opera and single-mindedly pursues her. Because her father's recent death has left her family in a precarious financial state, her mother encourages her to accept his proposal. The new Mrs. Irene Forsyte realizes her mistake as soon as she accepts, and the tension between the two fuels several episodes. It's quite a tightrope for the two actors to walk. Is Soames completely detestable because his personality is so cold? Or is Irene to blame because she never gives him a chance? Audience members will make their own decisions, but they won't be helped by the characters. Damian Lewis, as Soames, is a familiar face in quality Sunday-night drama from his role as Maj. Richard Winters in the epic HBO miniseries "Band of Brothers." Here he succeeds in portraying a tightly wound Soames, who fervently wants a family, no matter how ineptly he goes about it. His character could be written as a cartoon, but he brings it far more humanity. Gina McKee as Irene almost has a more difficult job. Previously seen as Hugh Grant's friend in a wheelchair in "Notting Hill," McKee has a luminous beauty and mystery that's sufficient to attract no less than four different men throughout the saga. Yet she also must also be a sympathetic character despite eschewing her chosen husband, practically from the start. It's a grim business, but her days are brightened when she meets a similarly artistic soul, a young architect who unfortunately happens to be engaged to the daughter of the Forsyte whose father ran off with the governess. And now you begin to see the outlines of the tangled web. The intrigue helped make Galsworthy's three-volume original drama, originally published between 1906 and 1921, hugely popular. Galsworthy went on to win a Nobel Prize for literature in 1932. Streamlined in the new version to just eight hours (with a second part that began filming last month), the action fairly flies by. While fans of "The Sopranos" may be awaiting the first major whacking of the seasons, major figures drop in just about every Forsyte episode, with plotlines taking breakneck curves at high speed. The temptation when collapsing the story to a relatively neat size is to explain it all away in dialogue. But there are plenty of scenes in "The Forsyte Saga" that are explicated visually: in telling looks from Lewis, or in a series of sketches by Rupert Graves, as the artistic Forsyte, that clearly shows his infatuation with his governess. There is a splendid performance too from Corin Redgrave, who is less well known than his sisters, but shows every bit as much talent in showing a gradual change from the kind of Forsyte who would cast away his son for leaving his wife, and then welcome him back, decades later, when old age softens his world view and makes him more open for change. When offspring of the various Forsyte factions begin to grow and mingle with one another - and go off to fight the Boer War shortly after the turn of the century - the underlying family history that the audiences knows but the children do not, adds to the tragedy beneath a series that earns the right to be called a saga. And you don't need HBO to experience it. http://www.ctnow.com/entertainment/tv/hc-masterpiece.artoct05,0,203947.story?coll=hc%2Dheadlines%2Dtv

NY Daily News (4 stars) Victorians victorious 'Forsyte Saga' worthy of 'Masterpiece' name MASTERPIECE THEATRE: THE FORSYTE SAGA. Sunday nights at 9, PBS (WNET/Ch. 13). The last time television presented a long-form adaptation of John Galsworthy's "The Forsyte Saga" novels, the result was a minor revolution, leading eventually to such ambitious miniseries as "Roots" in this country and "Brideshead Revisited" in England. This time, we can only hope for a similar string of inspired successors. It's not likely - but this new "Forsyte Saga," presented in eight parts on "Masterpiece Theatre" beginning Sunday night at 9 with the first two installments, certainly deserves to inspire. Not only is this "Forsyte Saga" the best "Masterpiece Theatre" offering in five years (since 1997's "Prime Suspect 5"), but it ranks among the best costume dramas the venerable PBS umbrella series has presented in its 31-year history. The original "Forsyte" predates that history, and predates even PBS. It was the previous public-TV entity, NET, that brought the smash British hit to this country in 1969 and made Susan Hampshire a star, as the fiery Fleur. This new version, though only eight hours, actually is a less hurried affair. The '60s version condensed six of Galsworthy's nine "Forsyte" novels into 26 parts; the new version takes eight hours to cover only the first two novels. Fleur hasn't even shown up yet. But she will, because the next two miniseries sequels of "Forsyte" are in the works, and eventually will be shown on "Masterpiece Theatre." Meanwhile, we have these eight hours, spread over seven Sunday nights - opposite HBO's "The Sopranos" and ABC's "Alias," making for a maddeningly competitive hour of TV. "The Forsyte Saga" is full of the rich detail and broad vision that the miniseries form allows, and which the commercial broadcast networks seem uninterested in pursuing. Viewers who take the time to get to know these characters (a process that happens very quickly) will be rewarded with a dramatic story that pulls them into every loving embrace and painful betrayal. The first eight hours in this Victorian drama introduce us to the Forsyte men, who are variously tortured or passionate, and their women, who are likewise. There's the family patriarch, Old Jolyon (Corin Redgrave); his artistic namesake, Young Jolyon (Rupert Graves), and another son, Soames (Damian Lewis), the veritable embodiment of British repression. Almost immediately, Young Jolyon announces his intention to walk away from his wife and daughter, and his family fortune, to live in happy scandal with the family governess. Soames pursues a woman, Irene (Gina McKee), who loathes him - but, because of his position, doesn't reject his advances. We also meet, among others, a dashing architect named Phillip Bosinney (Ioan Gruffudd), and Young Jolyon's neglected daughter June (Gillian Kearney), who loves the architect. And she's not alone. In fact, by the time these first eight hours are up, the principals will have played mix-and-match romances more often than the characters on "Friends." There, it's done for laughs. Here, it's done with high drama and in high style, with precise language, English gardens and delicate waltzes adding to the atmosphere, intrigue and romance. Lewis and McKee are the riveting standouts, but you'll be hooked by everyone, and everything. "The Forsyte Saga" today, even more than yesterday, is a true TV masterpiece. http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/col/story/24083p-22765c.html

Here is one man apparently smitten with McKee. Blimey! If it isn't Gina McKee By JOHN DOYLE The Globe and Mail Friday, September 27, 2002 What ho, Canadians! It's a rather British weekend on TV. Chaps in top hats do beastly things and a young member of the Royal Family gets tired and emotional in a pub. Most of the action takes place on Sunday. Dilly-dally with something else until then, but it's the Sunday menu that matters. The Forsyte Saga (Sunday, CBC 8 p.m.) is the big deal. It goes on for weeks and it also starts airing on PBS's Masterpiece Theatre the following Sunday. It's very good, absorbing TV, especially if you're crazy about a certain English actress named Gina McKee. Allow me a small tangent here. In L.A. in July, during the television critics press tour, American TV stars are everywhere. You get used to seeing them � the stars of Friends, ER and all the others. Veterans and legends mosey around the events and you stop being startled by their presence. However, one day I was gob-smacked and star-struck. Walking down a corridor, I spotted three women sitting in a small circle and chatting amicably. As I passed, I glanced at the lady nearest me because she looked vaguely familiar. Tall and very pale, she was dressed in a black, lace top and a black skirt. Her hair was as black as a raven's wing. She glanced up at me and I was startled by the shock of recognition. I whispered, in awed urgency to a colleague: "That's Gina McKee." The colleague looked puzzled: "Who's Gina McKee?" As soon as you start watching The Forsyte Saga, you'll understand. McKee (who also starred in the Canadian/British drama Dice and the monumental Brit miniseries Our Friends in the North) plays Irene Heron, a woman who drives a man named Soames Forsyte out of his mind. It's late-Victorian England, you see, and the Forsyte clan is powerful in a swanky, nouveau riche sort of way. Soames (Damian Lewis, who is excellent) decides he needs a wife and sets his sights on the alluring, mercurial Irene. She has no money. Her stepmother puts pressure on her to marry Soames, a man she doesn't love. Irene reluctantly agrees, telling Soames that he must set her free if the marriage doesn't work. He agrees to this condition but the viewer knows he is so besotted that he'll never let her go. Irene meets a dashing architect. Sparks fly. She dances in a red dress of sumptuous beauty and the world shifts. Don't talk to me about the 26-part BBC version of The Forsyte Saga in the 1960s. I was about eight years old and rather bored by it. Sorry. So many people remember it with affection, but I suspect that memory makes it better than it was. This version is eight hours long (it continues on Monday on CBC and then next week) and another eight hours will arrive next spring. Unlike most period dramas set in the Victorian period, this Forsyte Saga isn't about propriety. It's about money, power and lust. It's that simple. In the first few minutes, when we meet Soames, he's assessing how much money should be given to the too-handsome (and therefore unreliable) chap named Montague who is wooing his sister. The dashing architect Bosinney (Ioan Gruffudd) comes into the picture because he's told he cannot marry another Forsyte girl until he earns a certain amount of money. Everything hinges on money, power over other people and lust after property and beautiful women. The drama is drenched in contemporary themes. And, of course, once you're set your eyes on Gina McKee, you'll understand what Soames Forsyte is going through. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.TVGAMArticleHTMLTemplate/A/20020927/27_gam_doyle?tf=TV/TVFront_fullstory.html&cf=TV/config-TVFrontLayout1&slug=27_gam_doyle&date=20020927&archive=TV&site=TVFront

I noticed at IMDB that the British version was shown with a "pilot" of 90 minutes, which I assume was the first episode and then picks up for 5 more episodes of 75 minutes each. Since PBS started with an almost 2 hour version that means we are completely off kilter with those episode guides, I guess. It also means (if that is actual showing time in the UK w/o breaks and if my math isn't also off kilter) that PBS has a little less than 2 minutes per show for intro, exit credits and Russell Baker's comments so it may squeeze it all in, but just barely. There are a few messages at TFS boards at IMDb. There were no spoilers when I read it today. Current: http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0260615/board/threads/ Old: http://www.imdb.com/oldboards/wwwthreads.pl?action=list&Board=b0260615

USA Today 10/09/2002 - 'The Forsyte Saga': Rupert Graves Friday, August 23, 2 p.m. ET Thirty-three years ago, the fledgling Public Broadcasting Service won an enthusiastic audience for sumptuous period drama with a riveting rendition of John Galsworthy�s The Forsyte Saga. Now, this tale of true love and unbridled lust at loose in Victorian London arrives on EXXONMOBIL MASTERPIECE THEATRE with a fresh approach, a new cast and 21st-century production values. The eight-hour The Forsyte Saga opens with a two-hour premiere on PBS Sunday, October 6, 2002, 9:00 p.m. ET, followed by six one-hour episodes on Sundays, October 13-November 17, 2002, 9:00 p.m. ET (check local listings). Talk to Rupert Graves, who plays Young Jolyon, about the series. Missed the chat? Read the transcript below: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Weehawken, NJ: I've recently seen you in the Broadway revival of The Elephant Man. As an actor, how did you prepare to play oppposite a character (John Merrick) who would likely command the audiences attention at all times, perhaps at the expense of other characters? Rupert Graves: I went to see the Elephant Man's skeleton, read what I could about Frederick Treves, and a little bit about London in that era. The script states that the actors who played John Merrick to have no makeup whatsoever, because the story had become more about the deformities than his inner strength. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- new york, new york: What are some of the factors that you consider before making a decisiion to accept a script? Rupert Graves: I try to find a connection. If you can't make a connection, it's not worth doing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alexandria, VA: Rupert: A Room With a View is one of my favorites -- a classic. I've enjoyed your movies and plays in London. What's been your favorite role and why? Rupert Graves: I did a play called the Pitchfork Disney by Philip Ridley, where I played a character called Presley. The play was about two young adults whose parents have been killed, and they sort of become refugees in their own home. They're terrified of the outside world, and keep each other sane by feeding each other stories and chocolate. Someone comes through the door, which terrifies them both. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- : I am Russian living in the US and I have a degree in the English Language and Literature from a Russian university. I have not seen the movie, but have read and loved the book. We had to read it for our English Literature class and it took us a year to complete it. We analyzed it to death! Soams was a "bad guy" in the eyes of our professors. I hated it that I had to look for bad characteristics of him when I thought him to be a decent man who found himself with a wrong woman. I absolutely disliked Irene, but had to call her sensitive, fragile, not willing to compromise her feelings, etc. in my essays. I n order to pass a class, we had to follow what a certain school of thought, you know. I am looking forward to the movie! How close is it to the book? Usually, it is always a disappointment to see how a movie is a far cry from a book. However, I will keep an open mind watching this one, and the fact that it was filmed 32 years ago (I was born 32 years ago!) suggests that it is going to be a better quality p oduction than what you might see nowadays. At least, that's what I think! Thank you. Rupert Graves: I think it's a close adaptation in spirit. The novel is incredibly long, and we've changed and rearranged some of the incidents. But in spirit, it's very close indeed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ WDC: Since PBS has done this series before, did you feel any sense of trepidation about the new version? Did you study any of the old tapes, or just start from scratch? Rupert Graves: I myself read the book and based my acting on that. I didn't look at the previous series at all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New York, NY: What is it about you that leads directors to cast you in so many costume dramas? Do you think you've been typecast? Rupert Graves: I think that's what happens, yes. I don't really know why. When I started out as an actor, costume dramas were quite popular. I do other stuff as well, but I don't really understand why I've been so typecast. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New York,NY: What kind of preparation do costume drama actors have to put themselves through? For example, how long does it take to get dressed in period clothes? Rupert Graves: It takes a bit longer, not much. It takes longer because of all the buttons. For men it's easier, because women have to wear the corsets. They're arranged in a formal manner that we don't see anymore. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Washington, DC: How long did it take to film the series, and is there a sequel? Rupert Graves: We're starting next week on a sequel. It took six months to do the first series, and it'll take from September to Christmas to do the second. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New York, NY: Why won't your character accept money from his father after such a long estrangement? Rupert Graves: I think he strikes out for his own belief against the accepted way and formula that the Forsytes did things. He wants to be completely independent, and he's trying to escape his father's Forsythe values. It'll compromise his independence, basically. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alexandria, VA: One of the things I find interesting is that your character runs off with a governess, has two children out of wedlock, and eventually marries her. Wouldn't this have been a monstrous scandal in the Victorian age? Is this dealt with in the series? Rupert Graves: It was a monstrous scandal in the family, and the family counts for society at large. In the book they keep their heads very low and pretend they're married. He tries to maintain his independence by selling paintings, but they're very poor nevertheless. http://www.usatoday.com/community/chat/2002-08-22-graves.htm

(Qustioner) I hated it that I had to look for bad characteristics of him when I thought him to be a decent man who found himself with a wrong woman. Found himself?!!!! And s/he read the book and analyzed it to death with all five proposals??? LOL! (RG) I think he strikes out for his own belief against the accepted way and formula that the Forsytes did things. He wants to be completely independent, and he's trying to escape his father's Forsythe values. It'll compromise his independence, basically. *cough cough* Takes a strong character to do this. *cough cough* ;-) Thanks, Suzee, for the finding this. Maybe you could get Rupert to join us here? ;-)

Rupert would be good any of them. ;-) Washington, DC: How long did it take to film the series, and is there a sequel? Rupert Graves: We're starting next week on a sequel. It took six months to do the first series, and it'll take from September to Christmas to do the second. Is he joking? A sequel? in my essays. I n order to pass a class, we had to follow what a certain school of thought, My son has the same problem in his English class. :-( Thanks, suzee.

Thanks Suzee. (RG) Usually, it is always a disappointment to see how a movie is a far cry from a book. True. Which is why I plan to read the book(s)after the series. (Q.)What are some of the factors that you consider before making a decisiion to accept a script? Rupert Graves: I try to find a connection. If you can't make a connection, it's not worth doing. That's a new answer. Sounds plausible. Usually, the answer is the old story about the fabulous "director". (RG)"I hated it that I had to look for bad characteristics of him when I thought him to be a decent man who found himself with a wrong woman. I absolutely disliked Irene, but had to call her sensitive, fragile, not willing to compromise her feelings." Tell 'em Rupe ;-)

(Qustioner) I hated it that I had to look for bad characteristics of him... New equation: Russian Blind Man/Woman + TFS book= Person Who Cannot See Blatant-Examples-Of-Bad-Characteristics-On-Many-Pages in my essays. In order to pass a class, we had to follow what a certain school of thought, (Moon)My son has the same problem in his English class. :-( I guess this person was in school in Russia, but my kids, too, had this happen and I still remember how I disliked it myself, especially with poetry - the interpretation was usually pre-determined. There's not enough room for creativity and individualism. (such as we have here LOL). (RG)"I hated it that I had to look for bad characteristics of him when I thought him to be a decent man who found himself with a wrong woman. I absolutely disliked Irene, but had to call her sensitive, fragile, not willing to compromise her feelings." (Evelyn)Tell 'em Rupe ;-) It may not be clear because of the way it is on the page, but RG didn't say that. It was the " I am Russian living in the US" questioner who said it. Washington, DC: How long did it take to film the series, and is there a sequel? Rupert Graves: We're starting next week on a sequel. It took six months to do the first series, and it'll take from September to Christmas to do the second. (Moon) Is he joking? A sequel? No. They are filming now. This series is approximately the firs t book and a half of three books (plus short stories) and the next one will finish the story. It's going to be a long time to wait :-( (RG) Usually, it is always a disappointment to see how a movie is a far cry from a book. True. Which is why I plan to read the book(s)after the series. I agree it is often a disappointment, but I don't think that is so much the case here - at least not what I have seen so far. I am now into the second book and IMO the casting is very good and they are following the story nicely. (Karen) Maybe you could get Rupert to join us here? ;-) Wouldn't that be fun??!!

Shooting star Watching Damian Lewis leading the men of Easy Company to victory in Spielberg's WWII epic Band of Brothers, you'd never guess he went to Eton and attended drama school with Ewan MacGregor. Now, though, he is returning to more familiar territory as the iconic Soames in The Forsyte Saga Jay Rayner Sunday March 10, 2002 The Observer The middle-aged Italian waitress clearly does not recognise the actor she is shouting at or, if she does, she has had enough experience at being a sour-faced waitress not to show it. This is the second time she has asked Damian Lewis to choose what he wants for lunch and it is the second time he has asked for a few more minutes. 'Look,' she says, with a fearsome shrug, arms spread wide. 'We are busy. You don't order now, then the kitchen, it become busy. You wait too long for your food. You get cross.' There is a convincing logic here: the small, smokey cafe in London's St James's is indeed already crammed with people. I assume Lewis will cave in immediately and just pick something at random, because it is exactly what I want to do. This woman scares me. But then Lewis has a head start on me. He knows how to play a man dealing calmly with fear. In Band of Brothers , the TV war extravaganza produced by Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks, he played an American soldier constantly facing up to fear with a quiet certainty. As if slipping into character, he raises his hands in a sign of mock surrender and, keeping his voice low, his eyes fixed on hers, says simply, 'It's not a problem. Just give us another minute and we'll be right with you.' She retreats and he breaks into a broad grin. 'Wasn't that great?' He spreads his arms wide, shoulders up, in tribute to our waitress. 'Looooook!!!' he says, with just the hint of an Italian accent. 'You want to eat? You order now !' It is a moment Damian Lewis may eventually come to savour. He was being treated like an ordinary person and that is likely to become a less than ordinary experience in the coming months. Sure, he's already had the big parts. He's played leads in BBC dramas such as Warriors and Hearts and Bones. The Band of Brothers role was immensely important for his career, a sudden bump up into the American TV big league. But the attention he received for it in this country - where it was scheduled in a sleepy backwater slot on BBC2 - will be as nothing compared to the intense scrutiny he will receive when ITV begins screening its glossy remake of Galsworthy's Forsyte Saga, in which he stars as Soames Forsyte, the role made famous in the 1960s by Eric Porter. And then there's the lead in a new movie adaptation of a Stephen King novel, directed by Lawrence Kasdan. Sitting here in this low-rent Italian cafe, being barracked by the staff, Lewis is that curious creature: a very successful actor on the verge of becoming a ver major star. No matter. He says he knows what fame means and he thinks he can handle it. The key, he says, is to carry on doing good work; to follow each good performance with another one. Simple as that. 'There are ways of avoiding becoming tabloid fodder and therefore giving people license to pry into your private life,' he says. 'And there's a distinction between being an actor and being a celebrity. You may become a celebrity through acting, but you don't need to do so. For example you don't need to appear in Hello! or OK! magazines, both of which have asked me to do it. I mean, what must it feel like to be Brad Pitt with all that interest in you?' I suggest it's inevitable that people will pour over every detail of your life once you start appearing in huge, multi-million dollar films. He shakes his head. 'But Harrison Ford has managed to avoid it. It's a lifestyle choice.' In this simple declaration of intent, the young actor on the way up has told us exactly where he is right now. His terms of reference are the c reers of Brad Pitt and Harrison Ford. For some reason it doesn't seem unreasonable, this casual way with the roll call of Hollywood celebrity. He may not yet be turning heads whereever he goes, but he already looks the part. Lewis has a certain physical assuredness to him, a curious glow which isn't simply down to the brilliant copper flame of his red hair which, in any case, one could easily assume would actually be a bar to on-screen success. There are very few red-headed male leads. It's one of those stigmatised characteristics, a colouring so sharp and vivid that it's seen more often as a negative by casting directors, rather than a plus. Clearly that has not been a problem for Damian Lewis. Earlier, striding into the hotel foyer for our meeting, or assuming poses for the photographs, he looked like a man who understood instinctively why people should wish to look at him, why they should be at all interested. Only once have his looks been criticised, he says. 'A cricket ball broke my nose when I was a kid so I couldn't breath through it. Before I had it operated on I used to stand on stage with my mouth slightly open. Perhaps it made me look a little gormless. Anyway, the drama critic in The Financial Times wrote about me having this strange little mouth.' He may remember every detail of the hurt, but it doesn't appear to have done his career any harm. Now 30, Damian Lewis spent his early years amid the expensive topiary and stucco of London's St John's Wood, though he did not finish his childhood there. When he was eight he was sent to boarding school in Sussex. 'My parents were incredibly inclusive. They discussed boarding school with us and said if we didn't like it we could go to a day school. But I was a pretty manic kid aged seven. I kept getting into trouble. I actually wanted to get away.' He describes them as 'halcyon days: the smell of cut grass, bright sunlight, real Laurie Lee stuff.' It was also the place where he discovered theatre. 'Each summer we staged a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta. It was all so English. I used to sing the solos. I had a sweet treble voice.' From there he moved to a modest public school called Eton College. To hear Lewis talk about it, Eton wasn't simply some establishment edifice, the very nexus of wealth, power, title and privilege in Britain. It was, apparently, a cutting-edge arts laboratory. 'Eton's facilities were second to none and all the departments got to run themselves so despite seeming regimented it could also be pretty maverick.' When he was 16, Lewis formed his own theatre company and put on a production of Nicholas Nickelby . 'That was the moment really. I thought, I love this, this is what I want to do. My mum and dad said we think you can act. Try out for drama school and if you get in then go for it.' (His mother, Charlotte, was killed in a car crash in India last year and, while she got to visit him on the set of Band of Brothers , she did not live to see the great reviews he received for his performance. 'Mum was a beautiful, gorgeous woman and a very loving and giving mother,' he has said, 'and we all miss her terribly. Sh was very proud of what I'm doing and I'm just sad she's not around to see it all now.') He won a place at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama in London. 'Had I gone to Bristol or Oxford University, well, people seek out their own don't they. That inevitably results in you spending more time with public-school types.' Instead he landed at the Guildhall during a very productive period, alongside future names such as Joseph Fiennes and Ewan MacGregor. 'Some years just produce strong casts don't they,' he says. Clearly he was a part of it; he was spotted by Michael Billington, The Guardian 's veteran drama critic, while still a student. His first professional jobs came very soon after leaving drama school. Actor Rhashan Stone shared a dressing room with him at Stratford when they joined the Royal Shakespeare Company together to appear in Much Ado About Nothing and Cymbeline. 'He was always the person most likely to make it,' Stone says. 'He was someone who would make the most of a break. He always had his eyes open. He was primed and ready. But he's also very easy going, one of the guys.' Around the same time the actress Emma Fielding appeared alongside him in School for Wives at London's Almeida Theatre. 'Damian's full of beans,' she says. 'He's classically trained, but what he's also got is this Celtic thing going on. It's not just all neck up. He uses his body. But what was really unusual about him was his dynamism. And he's bright. You don't normally get all of that in one package.' Clearly it is a package which has appealed to television. First came a major part in the award-winning drama Warriors, playing a British army officer trying to police the horrendous moral confusions of war torn Bosnia. Next came Hearts and Bones, the BBC's gritty answer to Cold Feet. He played Mark Rose, the bewildered and heartbroken newly wed husband who doesn't quite understand why his marriage to Dervla Kirwan is falling apart. Those roles led, in turn, to the big break: the call from Hollywood. Stephen Spielberg and Tom Hanks had all but given up scouring the US for an actor who could play the part of Major Richard Winters, the commanding officer of the young paratroopers from Easy Company, the US 101st Airborne Division, whose true story would lie at the heart of the �80m Second World War television drama, Band of Brothers. Lewis read for the part in London and, within 48 hours, was in Los Angeles meeting Hanks. 'I met Tom Hanks on the Friday and he was very enthusiastic,' Lewis says, 'but I didn't think I'd got the part so I went out on the piss with a mate till five in the morning.' Three hours later, at 8am, he was woken by a phone call from the casting director. Spielberg wanted to meet him. 'I had four showers, but I still felt drunk.' For a weekend Lewis hung out with the two Hollywood moguls, shooting the breeze. They had both seen him in a production of Hamlet on Broadway. They wanted to talk about soccer because their sons were now playing it. They wanted to talk about London because they both had homes there. 'I was nervous at first, but they were really laid back and friendly and we really hit it off.' Lewis had the part; he was packed off to a boot camp in southern England to help get him in character. He also got to spend a lot of time with the real Richard Winters, now 82, who led his men all the way from the beaches of Normandy to Hitler's Bavarian headquarters. I tell him that what was most striking about his performance was how much he managed to put across by doing so very little. What stuck in the memory from Band of Brothers was not sudden moments of great heroism, but Lewis's immense stillness in the face of the clatter and incident of war. 'I had exhaustive conversations with the producers about the fact that Richard Winters is still alive,' he says. 'We were adamant that we had to be as true to him as possible, true to the essence of the man.' But that didn't mean doing a vocal imitation. 'He's Pennsylvania Dutch Mennonite,' Lewis says, as though it is an obvious category. 'He would sound Canadian to us. He had a very puritanical upbringing, no drinking, no swearing. Incredible moral rectitude and a sense of what's right and wrong. And, of course, he has a natural economy with words and emotions.' This, he says, led him back to the very classic on-screen acting skills of the Steve McQueens and Gary Coopers, 'people who achieved a lot by doing a little. If you set up an intensity and a stillness to someone you only have to show a flicker of a smile and it will show volumes.' It is also, he says, about listening. He sites his onscreen hero, Robert De Niro. 'He's brilliant at it. It's his listening which gives him his mercurial quality. It shows a certain humility.' It's clear this is the stuff, the mechanics of building character, that gets him going. He agrees. 'There's this preconception which irks me that there must be a show-off in one who acts, but the reason people start acting is because of the love of theatre. The reason you want to be at drama school is not "tits and teeth". It's because you want to tell stories. You have to decide whether you want to write the story, direct the story or act it. I want to act it. For me the rehearsal period is the part I most enjoy. It's the creating of the story.' It is, he says, about the choices you make as you create the role. 'That's what differentiates good actors from bad actors. The quality of the choices they make.' Are you a good actor? He hesitates, clearly looking for an answer that he hopes won't make him sound like a total arse. 'I don't know,' he says. 'I do know I could be better.' His life now is a distinctly transatlantic one as he flits between London and California for movie auditions, though he says he is determined to make careful choices. He has already turned down a major role in Ridley Scott's Black Hawk Down, so he could take on the Forsyte Saga. He claims not to be at all intimidated by the weight of television history that the role of Soames Forsyte carries; the original Forsyte Saga was landmark television, a national event for which the nation stopped, for which even church services were moved. It cast the mould from which all subsequent television costume dramas have come. This new version will, naturally, be far less stagey, but it is still drawing from the same well as the original. 'My vanity is such that I rather relish the challenge of being compared with great performers of the past,' he says, grandly. 'But this will be different. I'm not Eric Porter. Some people will like me for that, some will hate me.' As to this version it will require a certain patience from he audience. 'Not everything is delivered in the first hour.' The next job after the Forsyte Saga will be Dreamcatcher, an adaptation of a Stephen King novel. 'I am playing an American who gets possessed by an English-accented alien,' he says, with genuine enthusiasm. 'It's a good old-fashioned alien movie. I get chased by aliens, I get inhabited by one, lots of scary monsters.' He says he took the film because the script was so good and because it was directed by Lawrence Kasdan, famous for The Big Chill. 'Kasdan is a great example of someone who plays the Hollywood system while managing to keep his integrity,' he says, as though laying out his own manifesto. In between all of this he's trying to do the most difficult thing when the work is pouring in: have a life. He's planning to buy an electronic keyboard so he can practise his piano skills while hanging out in his Winnebago in the down time between shots. He still plays football to keep fit in a team called the Ladbroke Rovers - 'essentially just a bunch of west-London types' - and he's attempting to spend as much time as possible with his girlfriend Katie Razzall, a producer for Channel 4 News, who also gets sent abroad a lot. 'The uncertainty in her life about where you might be tomorrow as a reporter is similar to that in an actor's life,' he says. 'I suppose I'm used to having these kinds of relationships, though, because that's what I do.' Still, he says, it can be tough. They do miss each other. On the day we met, she was in Israel covering the unrest on the West Bank and he admitted he found himself worrying about her. Around us the fearsome waitresses are furiously relaying tables for the queues of people standing by the door. Lewis leans back in his chair and eyes his empty glass. 'It would be quite nice just to sit here and get drunk,' he says casually, though I'm not convinced he means it. He was muttering about another appointment that afternoon even before we sat down and, in any case, the waitresses would probably lynch us if we tried it. We decide instead to head off to see if we can find the chauffeur-driven car that his press handlers had promised would be idling nearby. When we find the car it is, naturally, a shiny Mercedes, an obligatory accessory for any self-respecting film star on the way up. Damian Lewis better get used to it. He will, I think, be spending quite a lot of time in the back of flash cars. Whether he likes it or not, it comes with the territory. http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,664761,00.html

Cute, his comment about Gosford Park. I wonder what part he would have played. (Like the Camus quote, too.) Rupert bared Rupert Graves found fame portraying public schoolboys - and in The Forsyte Saga he plays a bohemian toff. But Emma Brockes discovers a very different man behind the screen image Monday April 22, 2002 The Guardian Bleary and unshaven, Rupert Graves drags himself to a hotel on the banks of the Thames. It is end-of-the-world weather and his mood suits it. Last night, he partied till three in the morning and the over-lit hotel room aggravates his hangover. Jangling with brittle energy, he presents himself mockingly, contemptuous of the need to look pretty and talk nice for the journalist. "Look," he says, with a sarcastic leer, "a hole in my jumper." Graves' routine this morning is a response to his image as a soft, mannered public schoolboy. He is often confused with Rupert Everett, who lives more plausibly up to the first name by being posh and slightly neurotic-looking, like a rare breed of hound. Graves can look rarefied too - he has played enough floppy-fringed toffs to provoke the occasional "I think my brother was at Ampleforth with you" encounter, but in reality, he attended Wyvern comprehensive in Weston-super-Mare; his dad is a teacher, his mother a housewife, and his brother a lorry driver. Still, there is something about his baleful brown eyes that people insist looks privileged. Graves says: "I think they mean girly," and slumps dejectedly into a chair. The actor lives modestly in north London with his girlfriend, Yvonne, a mature student, and only does interviews because he has to. "It's just very dull," he sighs. "Talking about yourself and about something that you've got less interest in than you had, because you've always moved on to something else. But you have a contractual obligation." Today's contractual obligation is to ITV1, in whose remake of the 1967 drama series The Forsyte Saga he is appearing on Sunday nights. With polite enthusiasm, he talks up the production. "It's a saga of a family, the intricacies of a family tree that are woven into one big, old story. I read the first book and I thought, 'Oh Christ, it's so pompous.' And then you realise that he's being ironic. It's beautifully written. It's worth telling again." His eyes begin to bend out of focus. Graves became famous when he was 22 and played Freddy Honeychurch, Helena Bonham Carter's brother in Merchant Ivory's A Room with a View. His co-stars were Judi Dench, Maggie Smith and Daniel Day-Lewis. It was his first film and the one he is remembered for, by girls at least, because of a tennis scene in which he flopped exquisitely about in white flannels on a perfect summer evening. That was 16 years ago - he is 37 now, incredibly - but when I mention to friends that I am meeting Rupert Graves, they gasp and say immediately, "Freddy!" Graves went from unknown stage actor to the boy girls screamed at in the street. "I expected it," he says. "It was the first film role I did and everything I'd read about people who appeared in films indicated that this is what happened. I suppose, in my innocence, I would have been gutted if it hadn't. I thought, you make a film, then people come and scream at you." Viewers assumed that Graves shared Freddy's background - he looked at ease on the terrace. But at the time of filming, he had a strong west country accent and had to dub poshly over a lot of mispronounced lines. He spent the shoot in a state of almost constant mortification. "My first scene was with Denholm Elliott and Simon Callow. I just kept my back to camera because I was so embarrassed. I was red and ashamed of myself. I thought, 'What am I doing here?'" Were they kind to him? "Yes, very. If you get a young bag of bones turning up and floundering around, you'd have to be a bit of a bastard to pick on him." After A Room with a View came out, Graves was offered copious public schoolboy roles and literary adaptations. He appeared in the EM Forster biopic, Maurice; The Madness of King George; and Mrs Dalloway. I was surprised, I say, not to see him in Gosford Park. "Yeah," he says. "I was too. I kept expecting myself to pop out. I was asked to go and audition, but I couldn't because I was doing The Forsyte Saga." His name almost certainly contributed to his typecasting. People assumed that he was related to the writer Robert Graves and the Rupert bit didn't help either. As a child, he hated it. "My mum called me it because there was a man called Billy Wright who used to be England captain and apparently he knew someone called Rupert who used to kick a ball against my grandad's house in Shropshire years ago. She thought he was a bit dangerous, a bit racy. I'm named after him. I always liked the name Michael, but I never got round to doing anything about it." He isn't ambitious but he always wanted to act. His teachers thought he was arrogant, a fact he still finds strange as he remembers himself as an anxious child. "I was concerned about doing the right thing when I was a kid. I suppose as a child, you're a massive egomaniac and you think that everything you do is going to affect the world. Not being anxious requires a level of humility, doesn't it? It does, I think. It's not all about you." Graves can still recall the moment the anxiety lifted, the moment the world became less mysterious to him. "There's a thing I think children realise at a certain age, which is that if their parents say, 'Don't do it', and they go ahead and do it, they're still not going to die. And I think that's what it is: that no matter what you do, you're not going to die." At 16, he won a place on a youth training scheme as a clown in a travelling circus. At 18, he moved to London. He sought out theatre roles, chasing the feeling he got when he read a good script, which he compares to a flame in a boiler firing up. He is, he says, deeply competitive, although not about work. "It manifests itself in table tennis. It's true. Or, if I'm having an argument with somebody, I really like them to disagree strongly. I want to beat them and I'll do everything I can. But if I'm trounced, I'll still enjoy the struggle. I don't have to win." He doesn't argue about politics. "I'm left. I'm cynical about politics. I saw Tony Blair the other night at the [London] Evening Standard awards and he looked more made-up and bouffanted than any of the actors. How odd. He was giving an award and he looked very nervous. But I thought he came across as quite a sweet man." Politics only fascinates him dramatically. Graves loves the line in Albert Camus' play, Caligula, when, at the end of his life, the emperor is asked: "Do you have any emotions left?" And he says: "Yes, one: scorn." Graves says: "That's great, isn't it? Scorn." Talking about death and deliverance has cheered Graves up considerably. The storm is abating. He isn't a pessimist, he says, but a realist. Self-deception, especially in actors, appals him. "I was reading something about Robert Altman always having sad endings and he said, 'Yeah, you always have sad endings because you die. There is no other ending.' And when you look at a film that ends on a happy note, you think, 'But what happens tomorrow?' That's what I always think." http://film.guardian.co.uk/interview/interviewpages/0,6737,688795,00.html

( DL) When he was 16, Lewis formed his own theatre company and put on a production of Nicholas Nickelby Impressive for a 16 yr old or anyone. Thanks Suzee. When you're sleuthing around,pl see if you can find some UK reviews of Forsyte.

(Note: the use of "dad" or "daddy" is in the book so it's hard to fault the show for that) Top of the Fops TV review Gareth McLean Monday April 8, 2002 The Guardian Prim widows, cheeky urchins, grizzly patriarchs, porcelain heroines and purse-lipped men of property - The Forsyte Saga (ITV1, Sunday) had them all in corseted and cosseted abundance. Needless to say, this being a period drama, there was also a governess who had mad staring eyes, an artist in a big straw hat, inappropriate waltzing and a piano-playing heroine (though obviously we only saw Irene and her hands in separate shots). But far from being a bog-standard tale from the time of buttoned-up women and repressed men, The Forsyte Saga had much to recommend it. For this new adaptation of John Galsworthy's books, we were also treated to Victorians who say "Hello Dad." (I suppose it's Queen Vicky, is it?) In the main, Stephen Mallatratt's script was sharp and clever. While the plot cantered along, characters were skilfully hewn and adroitly played by the uniformly excellent cast, and the notion of possession, financial and otherwise, was writ large but subtly. "Will you do me the honour of becoming mine?" asked Soames of Irene, to which she replied, "I will marry you, Mr Forsyte." Thus, the occasional stumble into parody was forgivable. Moments of overheard chit-chat were straight out of French and Saunders, while street scenes also had a distinct flavour of the House of Idiot. Regardless, Damian Lewis was a suitably reptilian Soames, Gina McKee was luminous and tortured as Irene, Rupert Graves, a cracking actor who knows when less is more, played Young Jolyon, and Gillian Kearney shone as a blooming June. Yet the most remarkable thing about The Forsyte Saga was that it wasn't very beautiful. While the sum of its parts was great - bar the clumsy direction - the whole wasn't as luscious or as rich as I had expected. In fact, an awful lot of it looked decidedly pedestrian. It would be easy to dismiss The Forsyte Saga as "just" a soap opera with the emphasis on plot, but you could argue the same of The Way We Live Now. An epic story, it managed to look epic too. The Forsyte Saga, alas, did not. http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv_and_radio/story/0,3604,680544,00.html

Beward of possible minor spoilers in the UK reviews. According to the UK articles, what we are seeing now is the first 2 books - not 1 1/2 as I said before. . http://www.sourceuk.net/ The Forsyte Saga - a Review John Rimington Sita Williams� Forsyte Saga promises well - as a kind of educated supersoap. It is fastidiously costumed and ravishingly set. There are new and interesting faces in the cast, and already we have a quite brilliant performance, as Young Jolyon�s first wife, the half-Austrian Helene. Above all, Damien Lewis�s Soames is highly watchable, though far removed from the universally English figure imagined by Galsworthy and played as a singleton "outsider", a potential rapist in fancy dress. There is a great deal missing from this pretty play, beginning with a misinterpretation and under-estimation of the novel itself, which Williams claims "is about property, ownership, money. All the things we�re interested in now", and which The Times reviewer dismisses as "a tale of the loves, lusts and dynastic ambitions of a Victorian merchant family". What above all is missing, both from the play and from these two summaries, is precisely what our own age lacks - the original book�s impeccable sense of historical perspective, and a grasp of its great and particular theme - love. The Man of Property - a unique, nearly great, novel, attempts the impossible - to describe and analyse love in all its forms and in all its gravity. Specifically, "the instincts of self-forgetfulness, of passion, and of love, hiding under the trees, away from the trustees of their remorseless enemy, the �sense of property�". Its flaw perhaps is the character of Irene, the ultimate love-object but neither Christian nor Greek. Soames Forsyte is the universal figure at the book�s heart, incapable of sacrificing himself to the love he actually feels, or of interpreting it to himself as other than a species of possession. In the end, after throwing away the house that represents this conflict, and breeding a daughter he also loves but cannot control, he sacrifices his life for the one thing he can both love and have - his beautiful pictures. Young Jolyon, his cousin and rival, as tenacious, calculating and perseptive as Soames himself, can and does sacrifice himself to love, while fully recognising that "it is dangerous to let anything carry you away - a house or a woman" Will the series recognise anything of this? It seems doubtful. It has already muffed the significance of the elder generation, who are seen as fairly conventional old buffers with a champagne lifestyle, equipped with a chorus of Coronation Street deluxe sisters. It is Old Jolyon and James who, while fully representative of the Forsytism the book sets out to describe, reflect the two opposed principles of love and property in undiluted form, and Old Jolyon who comes nearest to reconciling them. For James, the possession of property is to live in a well protected state of terror, with Pan and Attila lurking in the shape of a dissolute son-in-law, an unfaithful daughter-in-law and - to shake hell�s foundations,- unreliable Boers gnawing at the price of Consols. For Old Jolyon, property is simply the price of what is truly desirable in life;- love, serenity, order, succession and benignity. His death in a July afternoon is one of the most touching scenes in English literature, releasing all the madness that fol ows. But Jolyon and James themselves are in hieratic succession to an order represented by their elder sister Ann, born in the Eighteenth Century, embodying a time seen in Forsytian lore as starker, more enduring and more productive than their own, a time when you could get ten percent for your money, and which did not reflect on "the inexorable nature of sex antipathies" because there were better things to do. Anne�s judgement on the reckless, over-sensitive Bosinney "He is a good looking young fellow, but I doubt if he�s quite the right lover for dear June" is passed off as a casual obiter dictum that might be expected of someone stuck in a bygone era, but not as it was - the considered and corporate, but gentle, rejection by a confident generation of something manifestly alien to its spirit. For if there is one dimension that the production entirely misses it is the historical. "History" is seen as a cosmetically different re-wind of the modern spirit. If it wasn�t, it wouldn�t sell. Or, as Galsworthy ironically put it, Forsytian style, "Rubbish that sells is not rubbish, but is worth what it will fetch". Galsworthy saw the Forsytes as archetypically English, and their dynastic development as a microcosm of English history in real time. He, less than anyone, would have been surprised at the callow representation of his great idea by the present generation, for he knew that that is what Forsytism and the death of Old Jolyon leads to. Indeed, he might have been mildly surprised that it has taken so long for the dissolution of the vital spirit of Englishness to reach the stage where it cannot recognise itself. Or, to put it another way perhaps the present generation is simply reverting to root stock. John Rimington - 09/04/2002 ------------------------------------------------------ The Times 9/4/2002 Forsyte saga stands test of time It was the BBC drama that gripped a nation 35 years ago but now an ITV version of The Forsyte Saga the epic tale of love and betrayal has topped the ratings. Comparisons with the 1967 adaptation suggest that upper class accents have been toned down to make the characters more accessible, while the new version focuses on the younger, more televisual characters. But Granada insists that the novels have not been diluted to resemble a contemporary soap opera. Sita Williams, the producer, said: " What it is about is property, ownership, money. All the things we're interested in now much more than in the Sixties, when people were protesting about the Vietnam War." The Times 9/4/2002 -------------------------------------------- From The Observer's roundup of reviews The Mirror, Tony Purnell Verdict: as expected, Purnell hated it "It pales in comparison with the original, which starred the excellent Eric Porter as the rich and successful Soames Forsyte and beautiful Nyree Dawn Porter as impoverished Irene who marries for security. Damian Lewis and Gina McKee don't look or feel right as Soames and Irene, who end up trapped in a loveless marriage." Purnell clearly remembers the first series. The Telegraph, James Walton Verdict: too controlled Walton was just five when the first series went out and remembers the "slightly wounding dominance" it exerted over his mother's life. "My guess would be that most viewers over about 45 will have spent much of last night's opening episode remembering and comparing. [Did he know Purnell would have done this?] But what was the programme like for the rest of us? Well, at first it was pretty confusing. The script seemed to assume that we'd instantly know who everybody was... It was able to get through large amounts of narrative material without appearing hurried... Occasionally, however, it seemed almost too controlled - with the result that you found yourself noting the various emotions rather than feeling them." Daily Mail, Peter Paterson Verdict: a sure-fire winner Paterson remembers the BBC version as the "definitive small-screen drama" and how church halls were emptied as the BBC introduced the nation to a Sunday night cliffhanger. "The Forsyte Saga - this time on ITV1 - was bound to be a major TV occasion. Nor did this first of six 90 minute episodes disappoint... Will those who sighed over the vicissitudes of Nyree Dawn Porter as Soames's used and abused wife, Irene, accept the thoroughly modern Gina McKee in the role? The answer to the latter question should be an emphatic Yes..." On the strength of this opening chapter, producer Sita Williams and director Christopher Menaul seem to have treated John Galsworthy's epic with respect while making it relevant for today's viewers. I believe they have a winner on their hands."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/nsaga23.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=99411 (Glad they dicided to go ahead with the second part) Spoiler marked below: ITV shortens 'highbrow' Forsyte Saga By Chris Hastings and Charlotte Edwardes (Filed: 23/09/2001) ITV has scrapped plans to film a complete version of the The Forsyte Saga fearing that the programme could prove too highbrow for viewers. Despite the fact that the BBC made one of the most celebrated British drama series ever screened when it based a series on the John Galsworthy books in 1967, ITV is concerned that modern audiences might not be gripped by the sprawling drama of the Forsyte family between 1879 and 1926. The commercial channel, which originally announced that it was to spend �14 million on an adaptation of the nine-volume story, will now film only six episodes, which will cover the first two books. The programme makers will then wait to judge audience reaction before committing themselves to any further episodes. ITV announced plans for a new adaptation in August 2000. It did not say it was a partial adaptation. At the time, Simon Lewis, the controller of drama, said: "These novels are as relevant and entertaining as when they were first adapted in the 1960s. We are convinced the combination of sex, power and money will again make great drama." The adaptation will compound fears that ITV has abandoned its commitment to quality drama in the face of pressure from advertisers to come up with undemanding popular entertainment. The show is being produced by Granada, the Manchester company that won international acclaim in the early 1980s for its adaptations of Evelyn Waugh's Brideshead Revisited and Paul Scott's The Raj Quartet. Scott's four novels, which were filmed as The Jewel In The Crown, were adapted in their entirety. The plan to film only the first two books has infuriated the family of John Galsworthy, who only learnt of the changes last week. They are worried that the new version, which stars Corin Redgrave, Gina McKee and Damian Lewis, will not compare well with the BBC version. In 1967, the cast list included Kenneth More, Michael York and Nyree Dawn Porter. The series gave Susan Hampshire her first big role. Jocelyn Galsworthy, the author's great-niece said: "It seems very strange that they now won't make the complete series. "I think it shows an overall lack of confidence in the project. They have got the BBC adaptation hanging over their heads and I think they know they can't compete with it." Miss Goldsworthy has been in contact with the producers to express concern about the way characters in the novels will be treated."It's only a gut feeling but I don't think the new version will work," she said. "I think there will be a tendency to make it raunchier and with lots of sex, and I think that will prove fatal." ************************spoiler below******************************* ** ** ** Christopher Sinclair-Stevenson, who is Galsworthy's literary agent, told The Telegraph: "I am also worried how the producers will treat some of the characters in the novels. The rape of Irene Forsyte is a crucial part of the story and was brilliantly handled by the BBC. In the original it was touched on very slightly and very delicately. I just have a feeling it won't be like that this time around." *************************End Spoiler************************************** ** ** ** ** A spokesman for Granada defended the decision to wait and see how the audience reacted to the first instalment. "It is the way things are done today," she said. Zita Williams, who is the producing the current adaptation, said: "I am sure the programme will prove popular with viewers. There is a feeling that the audience is ready for something different. This show will provide that. The books and the original BBC adaptation are like national treasures but I think people are genuinely delighted we are pushing ahead with this." Comparisons with the original black-and-white BBC version will be hard to avoid. The 26-part series attracted six million viewers for its first showing on BBC2; the second, on BBC1, attracted up to 18 million viewers. The adaptation also drew a global audience of more than 160 million. Hampshire, who played Fleur in the original BBC adaptation, told The Telegraph: "ITV, probably quite rightly, think the first few books are more powerful and easier to adapt, but having said that, the BBC decided to do the entire series and they had a tremendous success with it. "Everyone who had a speaking role had a major role. As a result they were very committed to the project and that was part of the reason for its success. My character will not even appear in this version." � Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2002. Terms & Conditions of reading. --------------------

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2002/03/18/btvfors18.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=100808 Spoiler marked below: Play it again, Soames (Filed: 17/03/2002) In the Sixties, publicans and vicars shut up shop as 'The Forsyte Saga' held television viewers spellbound on Sunday evenings. Now John Galsworthy's classic novel has been adapted for TV once more. Robert Dawson-Scott reports from the set. The scene: Tabley Hall, near Knutsford in Cheshire; a gracious Victorian drawing-room. Wintry sun trickles through high west-facing windows on to a grand piano at which sits a very pretty girl in a long cream dress. A table covered in white damask is laden with an extravagant buffet. In between stand two elderly women in black lace and shawls, and a younger woman with her husband. A fresh-faced youth in a dove-grey suit and a 10-kilowatt smile waits nervously. Outside the charmed, brightly lit circle is the usual wagon train of television production; two cameras, monitors, dollies, booms, mikes, cables, lights and the worker bees of hairdressers, set-dressers, make-up and wardrobe. Enter the guest they have obviously all been waiting for: a tall, elegant figure in a black frock coat, his short red hair brilliantined to his head, his high collar gleaming with starch. It is the visitor's 45th birthday party, and it is a surprise. It is also quite a surprise to see how well Damian Lewis, last seen in combat fatigues and camouflage as Captain Winters in Band of Brothers, Steven Spielberg's Second World War epic, scrubs up into an eminent Victorian. Registering far higher on the Richter scale of surprises, though, is the identity of the arriving guest who Lewis plays. It is none other than Soames Forsyte, a character whose name summons up everything that was, is, and will be The Forsyte Saga. Yes, it's true. The Forsyte Saga is back. Granada has been filming a new adaptation of the series in locations all over the north of England, over the past year. It changed the face of British television in the Sixties. To see another set of features in the role - and one so different from the late Eric Porter, who played the cold and ruthless solicitor Soames in the BBC's version - is quite a shock. For ITV, which has spent �6.5 million on it, the hope is that the mixture of something familiar with a fresh adaptation and a new generation of actors will give them a big upmarket ratings win against the BBC. "I have to fight very hard to make the point that this is not an adaptation of the BBC's Forsyte Saga," says producer Sita Williams. "People see it as a television drama as opposed to a great series of novels. I just hope that after the first five minutes, the audience will forget about the earlier version." Williams knows, however, that she is setting herself an exacting test. You can argue all you like about how the story, with its dysfunctional, multi-generational family, its twists and turns of fate, its star-crossed lovers, its obsession with possessions and status, is a story as much of our times now as any other. But ask anyone much over 45, and in an instant the talk is suddenly of "Oh my Soames, my Irene, long ago". John Galsworthy's sprawling trilogy which follows this grand London middle-class family through half a century of trials and tribulations was part of a literary output respected enough to win him the Nobel prize in 1932. But what stitched it into the popular imagination was bringing it to the small screen. Every Sunday evening from January to July, 1967, The Forsyte Saga had people on the edge of their seats, its 26 episodes quite unlike anything that had ever been seen before. In the first place, the series was simply much longer than any before, challenging all sorts of received wisdom about what was possible in TV production. It was also exceptionally strongly cast - with Kenneth More, one of Britain's best-known film stars, taking the central role of young Jolyon Forsyte, and Fay Compton and Porter taking leading roles. It also made watching television respectable. Never mind it had all the elements of a good soap - the familiar cast of characters, the cliff-hanger at the end of each episode, the shocking plot twists - here was a book straight out of the canon of English literature. It was not the first literary adaptation but it was so detailed, so lavishly costumed and set (the budget was �250,000, an eye-watering sum at the time), that the viewers who still shied away from shows such as Coronation Street felt comfortable watching it. So deeply did it enter the public consciousness that it was featured not once but twice in that bellwether of British culture, the Giles cartoon in the Sunday Express.It was in part deliberately commission ed to do just that, a way of getting audiences to tune into Britain's third television channel, the fledgling BBC2. Six million people - three-quarters of those who could receive it - saw that first run. There are stories of church service times being moved and pub-opening hours being adjusted to accommodate the phenomenon that the series became. Those who had not had their sets retuned would invite themselves round to more fortunate neighbours for 'Forsyte suppers'. When it was repeated on BBC1, 18 million watched. "I expected it to do well because it had the right stuff in it," recalls Donald Wilson, the BBC producer, now 91, who coaxed it on to the screen. "It was partly the story, partly the performances. And you mustn't forget the book; a lot of people remembered reading it then. But no one had any idea it would go worldwide." It was even sold to the Soviet Union - the first British television production to win such an unlikely accolade. Both the BBC and ITV have looked at the possibility of recapturing that success in recent years. In the end, it was David Liddiment, 49, now ITV's director of channels, who acquired the rights - owned by Ted Turner as part of the MGM portfolio - and commissioned a new series. He remembers watching it as a teenager. "I thought if we started from scratch and looked at it again it would work," he says. He is not comfortable labelling it high-class soap opera, as many have, but he acknowledges, "In that it spans one family across generations and its characters involve the audiences with a strong emotional bond, it has some relationship to the devices that soaps use. But the piece has a stature which will make it one of the events of the year." Liddiment was more cautious than Michael Peacock, the first controller of BBC2, who insisted, against Wilson's advice, on doing the whole series of books in one go. The Granada series, however, covers just the first two books, A Man of Property and In Chancery. But having seen the early footage, Liddiment has now commissioned a further series for next year. Back at Tabley Hall, they are ready for their close-ups and one can begin to discern the scope of the new adaptation and how different it will be from the earlier one. No Kenneth More voiceover, for a start, although they do begin, as did the BBC, some 10 years before the book does. It will be pacier, promise the writers Stephen Mallatrat and Gina McVerry. Describing herself as 'a soap slapper' (she cut her teeth on Coronation Street and is best known for her work on Clocking Off), McVerry was brought in for a female perspective but found inventing whole scenes (such as the 45th birthday party) easier than using Galsworthy's fragmentary dialogue. ****************************Spoiler Below********************************** ** ** ** But she also wrote the notorious 'rape' scene, which is in the book, when Soames, who believes that his wife is his property, imposes himself upon her. The scene caused a sensation on the book's publication and when the earlier television series was broadcast. ** ** ** ** ** *****************************End Spoiler******************************** There has been the usual meticulous attention to visual detail. Almost everything has been shot on location, unlike the earlier version which was rehearsed and then shot virtually live on five cameras in a studio. Then there is the new cast: Corin Redgrave and Rupert Graves as old and young Jolyon; heartthrob Ioan Gruffud as Phillip Bosinney, ************************spoiler below*********************************** ** ** ** ** ** the radical young architect with whom Irene (Gina McKee) first discovers love. *************************end spoiler************************************* ** ** ** ** ** At the party are Wendy Craig, Ann Bell and Barbara Flynn as some of the aunts. Craig, best known for her scatty sitcoms in the Eighties, remembers the original well. "I was mesmerised by it," she remembers, "never missed an episode. I've always wanted to do a real period drama ever since." "I usually play school teachers or milk women, never anyone terribly rich," says Flynn, who plays Emily, Soames's fearsome mother. "It's really lovely to play someone with a bit of dosh. I love wearing the frocks." Hers is a vast bronzed velvet affair with leg o'mutton sleeves. There is Amanda Root as Winifred, Soames's sister, and Ben Miles as her husband, the caddish Dartie; Miles describes his characterisation as "a homage to Terry-Thomas", the archetypal British bounder. Root is dark, unlike Margaret Tyzack in the earlier version and Winifred Dartie in the book. But anyone who has seen her on stage will recognise why she was cast. 'I admire her pluck,' she says of her character. "I've played a lot of put-upon women but she manages to cope and takes great pride in rising above it." The pretty girl at the piano playing Imogen, Soames's niece, turns out to be Alice Patten, daughter of Chris Patten, the former governor of Hong Kong. It is her first professional role; she is still in her final year at Cambridge. Her 'brother' Val, the one with the smile, is Julian Ovenden, a former choral scholar at Oxford, also in his first television role. "It's a real thrill for me," he says, "especially to work with someone like Damian, who is closer to my age group." And there is Lewis as Soames, the life and soul of the party off screen, checking to see if shooting is on schedule so that he can get off up the road in his new sports car to Anfield to see his beloved Liverpool play Barcelona, but straight and unbending on it. "He's not a man with a big heart,' says Lewis of his character. He has a small heart, a walnut heart. Not someone you warm to." But he hopes that there will be rather more ambiguity in the relationship with Irene than there was in the earlier version where the pale, blonde Nyree Dawn Porter suffered the attentions of Soames with a permanent silent scream. Lewis came straight to the Forsyte shoot from Band of Brothers which he admits was also a costume drama of a sort. However, he is anxious not to make what he calls 'museum drama'. As he smooths down his frock-coat, he says, "What clothes like this do for you is make you stand up straight, makes you observe the contemporary social mores, and that's what places it in its time. "But we are still fascinated by the same things: who loves whom, who is betraying whom, who's sleeping with whom. We want the human story." This time Irene is played by the dark-haired Gina McKee. .... But later, she tells me that while she was filming another project in North Carolina she wandered into a secondhand bookshop and found herself face-to-face with a beautiful red-leather-bound edition of the book. "I don't normally give in to those things but I did think, 'Oh, my God, it's a sign!' " The relationship between Lewis and McKee will go a long way to determining the success of the series and may mark the most important distinction from the older one. This time, Lewis says, 'I'm not such an archetypal villain and she's not the victim.' And that, in the end, regardless of ratings, prestige or television history, is why returning to such an iconic subject is worth doing. As Sita Williams says, "You make a thing of its time, but you bring the time in which you make it to the piece." Good, bad or indifferent, it will be a Forsyte Saga which says as much about our times as the time in which it is set.

My character[Fleur] will not even appear in this version." I wondered why she wasn't listed in the cast on imdb. Thank you Suzee. The UK reviews give more background and peripheral comments than the US.

I happened upon this new site for the young man who will be playing Val Dartie -Julian Ovenden. He will be in #5 and #6. http://www.curtaincall.co.uk/julianovenden/news.html

Still not 100% caught up from last week, but on track now. I was all set for two hours tonight, but after the end of one I found myself in front of that whining Gordon Clune (Frontier House) again...gah! Anyway, I'm rapidly coming to dislike Irene, especially after what she did to June. The actress is certainly talented, but I'm stuck seeing the character as a cold fish, even after tonight. She seemed to be on some kind of weird emotional high when she was happy, although that might seem more extreme held up against the flat affect she's displaying the rest of the time. In light of this, I'd almost consider her acceptance of Soames' proposal impulsive! It didn't help that she was dressed after the manner of Madame X in the Sargent portrait in the middle of an otherwise restrained ballroom. I saw her act of ablution in the previous chapter as done in passive-aggressive rejection. Not that I feel that much sympathy for Soames, either; he's going to need something earthshattering to make him see that his way isn't the only way. It's been awhile since I read the book, but I seem to recall old Jolyon being much more of a force in the family than he's coming across in this production. I'm a big Wright fan; I wanted to steal that house, although the interior was reinterpreted for the needs of the story. The facade is a very close copy of one of his more famous residences; I can go to the books and find it if anyone's curious.

Was that how it was supposed to be? Bossinay was the English Frank Lloyd Wright? Jeez Louise! When I saw the plans last week, I was taken aback and then this week, the actual house and its interiors. There is that Scot (Rennie???) who was Arts & Crafts, but he did furnishings (I thought) and was not an architect. Sorry, but it seemed so odd to see the house in the English countryside. A "Prairie" home, which is supposed to blend into the landscape???? (Elizabeth) It didn't help that she was dressed after the manner of Madame X in the Sargent portrait in the middle of an otherwise restrained ballroom. Exactly! Or her Jezebel dress. Could anything be more obvious? Was chuckling when Monty told the aunts that "she'd been plucked" and one didn't understand his slang. Seems that phrase even Elizabeth (first) used in SIL. ;-)

(Elizabeth S) Anyway, I'm rapidly coming to dislike Irene, especially after what she did to June. Agreed. I already disliked her after last week, but this week it just got worse. Irene is utterly self-absorbed. Not that Soames is much of a human being either - but I was on his side about the breach of contract. He kept warning Bosinney about the cost overruns, and Bosinney kept willfully ignoring him. And is it just me, or is Gruffudd a really bad screen kisser?

(Elizabeth)It's been awhile since I read the book, but I seem to recall old Jolyon being much more of a force in the family than he's coming across in this production. OJ had more money than any of the others and that was the one thing they all knew how to respect - at least until he committed the 'unpardonable sin' of forgiving his son. I love Redgrave's performance -- I think OJ as he plays him is wonderful.

(Karen)There is that Scot (Rennie???) who was Arts & Crafts... Charles Rennie McIntosh, did both, but rigorous angularity isn't the hallmark of his style as it is of Wright's. A quick search through my big book o'Wright produced several candidate houses, all in Oak Park or environs and pre-Taliesin (the first). Maybe they were looking for an unusual style and a scandalous life? Wright abandoned his first wife to run away with the woman who later became his second; it was all over the papers in its day and nearly destroyed his career. (Rika)And is it just me, or is Gruffudd a really bad screen kisser? Well, it darn sure ain't me. ;) He's got that boyish enthusiasm down pat, and his part was played much better in this installment, IMO. I noticed lots of fine lines in Irene's face in the closeups here that made her look even more prim and cold than in the last round.

(Elizabeth) It didn't help that she was dressed after the manner of Madame X in the Sargent portrait in the middle of an otherwise restrained ballroom. (Karen)Exactly! Or her Jezebel dress. Could anything be more obvious? Obvious - over the top, but I enjoyed that dance. I kept comparing her smile with the restrained (constipated) one she had during that first dance with Soames last week. And all the shots of the folks on the sidelines, whispering and rolling their eyes once again. LOL (Rika)And is it just me, or is Gruffudd a really bad screen kisser? I like him well enough as Bossiney, but if you want kissing lessons, go back to the first episode and watch Young Jo and the great, long, multifaceted kiss he gives Helene. It's a work of art. :)) (Rika)Not that Soames is much of a human being either - but I was on his side about the breach of contract. He kept warning Bosinney about the cost overruns, and Bosinney kept willfully ignoring him Not much of a human being is a real understatement. When a man starts grabbing and threatening to beat a woman, it is waaaay past time to get as far away from him as possible. About Bosinney,Soames kept agreeing to the extra costs and insisting Bosinney stay on longer even when he wanted to leave (at least once he sincerely intended to leave. Other times seemed just angry threats). Both were at fault maybe, but the amount of money was insignificant to Soames and all along it was about 'control'for him. But the lawsuit really had nothing to do with money or the house. He had just figured out that something was going on between Bosinney and Irene - *that's* what the suit was all about. (Rika)And is it just me, or is Gruffudd a really bad screen kisser? I like him well enough as Bossiney. I'll have to see his kisses again, but if you want kissing lessons, go back to the first episode and watch Young Jo and the great,long,multifaceted kiss he gives Helene. It's a work of art. :)) We talked earlier about the missing first years of Soames and Irene's marriage. I found one paragraph in the book where Soames is thinking about Irene and thinks 'she tried to love him (meaning himself) but she could not.' So my impression is that she may have made some effort, however small. He simply cannot understand why she doesn't love him. He is such a complete emotional cripple in every way - it is beyond his deductive ability to understand and completely beyond his ability to change even if it would help his situation. I could *almost* have some sympathy for him because he is so lacking in human qualities (operative word: almost).

Sorry about the repeats - it is very, very late.:0(

I hope this isn't a repeat - info pages at TV Tome (UK). The blurb at the top of the page has huge spoilers in it, but if you scroll down, there is a cast list with links to info about individual cast members. http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-7197/

but I enjoyed that dance. I kept comparing her smile with the restrained (constipated) one she had during that first dance with Soames last week. And all the shots of the folks on the sidelines, whispering and rolling their eyes once again. LOL I only got a tiny snippet of this with the narration in the beginning. Did I miss something? Same with the house interiors. (Rika)And is it just me, or is Gruffudd a really bad screen kisser? (suzee), I like him well enough as Bossiney. I'll have to see his kisses again, but if you want kissing lessons, go back to the first episode and watch Young Jo and the great,long,multifaceted kiss he gives Helene. It's a work of art. :)) LOL!

(Rika) but I was on his side about the breach of contract. LOL! Reminded me of when I had a lawyer reviewing a contract with a building remodeler. He said these contracts are virtually worthless and it goes way back historically. However, this had to do with the subjective elements like completion, quality, satisfaction, etc., and not costs. (Elizabeth) Maybe they were looking for an unusual style and a scandalous life? True about FLW's personal and professional notoriety, but I guess I'm most curious as to whether Galsworthy modeled him after FLW or was Bossiney merely "an architect" with no description given of his style or work techniques. Wright had total control over the interiors as well. (Perhaps, I should bring Bill over here. He would know which house.) (Suzee) He simply cannot understand why she doesn't love him. It was truly pitiful when he seemed to be begging Irene in the carriage to find out what he could do or change about himself so that she would love him. Yes, pitiful, but I still have no sympathy for him. ;-)

(Elizabeth S) I'm stuck seeing the character as a cold fish I've been having another vision of Irene, it hit me last night, the pinched lips with just the hint of teeth, I saw a hamster. Can't get the thought out of my head. (Karen) Bossinay was the English Frank Lloyd Wright? (Elizabeth S) Charles Rennie McIntosh, did both, but rigorous angularity isn't the hallmark of his style as it is of Wright's. Funny, I know very little about architecture though I have certainly heard of FLW and have seen examples of his work but the minute I saw the house (in its finished condition, I missed the first 15 minutes or so of the show so any work-in-progress drawings, construction, etc, I missed) I thought of Wright. Even if it's not the intention to model Wright, what it tells me about Bosinney is sufficient - noncomformist, nontraditional, artistic, a visionary with the ego to pull it off. How interesting to find there may be parallels with his life and am also curious to know if this is from the book? Nice touch to the production if not.

Right now, about the only character I feel sorry for is June. Poor June. She didn't deserve to have Bossiney's attraction for Irene thrown up in her face in such a public venue. And the way he slowly but surely was dumping her??? Be a man about it, will you? How about Soames' mother, when she had her heart to heart with Irene? OK, now we know how she felt about being a wife, but I didn't get the impression that Soames would've known the details. At least, she made the best of the situation and played the wife and mother. A daughter may have been told, but not a son.

Poor June. How I ached for her - "No! Don't go to the ball" I actually almost cried out. Even her choice of clothes gave me pain. As I said, I missed the first 15 minutes or so, so if the character was developed in such a manner perhaps I read more into it than was there, but I thought her choice of gown and accessories for the ball were very sophisticated and femme fatale...if you know what I mean. Made me think of a young girl playing dress up, trying too hard to appear grown up. And then to watch her eyes fill with tears when she saw them....heart-breaking. But then, Gran takes her to Paris, she returns home laden with packages and seems right as rain. I'm anxious to see if this is a brave girl putting a good face on things or an immature, shallow little girl whose heart really was not touched.

(Barb) I'm anxious to see if this is a brave girl putting a good face on things or an immature, shallow little girl whose heart really was not touched. Right now, I'd say the former, but who knows with this story. ;-) June does seem far older than her years. In her role as Irene's confidante, she seems fairly knowledgeable about marital relations for a 17 year old and her advice (to leave him) is surprising for one whose own father's deserted her.

(Karen) I'm most curious as to whether Galsworthy modelled him after FLW. There is at least no direct evidence in the book to support this view. Anyway, the book does not say much about Bosinney�s background. The Forsytes refer to him as the �buccaneer� and someone outside their own class. His relationship to June is a mystery and I still do not know the reasons he ended up engaged to her at all. But the impression I got of Bosinney is of a man who knows his own mind and can stand for it. About Soames� motive for choosing Bosinney as his architect: �The house must be in good style, something that would always be certain to command a price, something unique � no common edifice. And a common architect was no good �.This was why he had thought of Bosinney �... he had made inquiries the result of which had been meagre, but encouraging: One of the new school.�(As FLW?) �He had not been able to discover what houses Bosinney had built, nor what his charges were. The impression he gathered was that he would be able to make his own terms�� In addition. �it would be keeping the thing in the family.�

(BarbS) I've been having another vision of Irene, it hit me last night, the pinched lips with just the hint of teeth, I saw a hamster. LOL! Yes, very like a hamster or perhaps a weasel. She also has beady, glittery little eyes. And when she is filmed from the side, it's even worse. Way too skinny. The term "hatchet-faced" keeps coming to mind. Not at all someone who would inspire so much admiration in so many men, IMO. I just finished catching up with TFS last night, so forgive me if I've repeated anything that's already been said. Haven't had time to read all of the posts so far, and didn't want to do so earlier for fear of spoilers.

(Karen) A "Prairie" home, which is supposed to blend into the landscape??? (Suzee)pre-Taliesin (the first). Interestingly, I've been watching Ken Burns' FLW two-parter. The house looks like the one he built in Montana.Second part tonight on PBS. (Rika)And is it just me, or is Gruffudd a really bad screen kisser? (suzee), I like him well enough as Bossiney. I'll have to see his kisses again, but if you want kissing lessons, go back to the first episode and watch Young Jo and the great,long,multifaceted kiss he gives Helene. It's a work of art. :)) Hey, you want a work of art...look at Stephen Dillane as the master and Sophie Marceau as the governess in "Firelight". Makes Young Jo look like a teenager. Gruffudd needs kissing lessons from Jeremy Northam. I'm missing the big passion between Irene and Bossiney.No chemistry, IMO. Still think Irene was miscast. DL puts in some acting. How about the dinner scene in the dining room.What acting...you could feel the tension.I though last night's episode was the best. Gorgeous costumes and cinematography. I smell a BAFTA and Emmy. Poor June. Only likeable character in the lot.

(Karen) I'm most curious as to whether Galsworthy modelled him after FLW. When you copy and paste, there's no need to change spelling, Ceidre. In fact, I wondered if I had actually written that, since I would never have doubled the L in modeled. It is not the preferred American style. ;-) Thank you for the additional details about Bossiney from the book. Soames does think he would be better able to control him because of his lack of experience and reputation. Proceeding with a home that is clearly not of the classical style preferred by architects of that period shows me he is doing it for Irene. Soames' taste in art (pre-Irene) was not for modern or anything that bucked up against traditional representations.

(suzee) Both were at fault maybe, but the amount of money was insignificant to Soames and all along it was about 'control'for him. I think to some extent it was about control for Bosinney too. Each overage was presented to Soames as a fait accompli, never proposed in advance. So it was a way for Bosinney to ensure his own legacy AND have the fun of being a bit of a thorn in Soames' side without Soames being able to do too much about it. Until..... But the lawsuit really had nothing to do with money or the house. He had just figured out that something was going on between Bosinney and Irene - *that's* what the suit was all about. I know that. But what's interesting about the decorating budget was that if I remember correctly, Bosinney was the one who said, "Will you put that in writing??" So it was his own fault that Soames had a piece of paper specifying the agreed-upon budget this time. Bosinney was a fool not to adhere to the letter of that contract, given that he and Irene hadn't exactly been discreet. (Suzee) if you want kissing lessons, go back to the first episode and watch Young Jo and the great,long,multifaceted kiss he gives Helene. It's a work of art. :)) Oh, yeah. That's what I'm talkin' about. (Karen) How about Soames' mother, when she had her heart to heart with Irene? OK, now we know how she felt about being a wife, but I didn't get the impression that Soames would've known the details. At least, she made the best of the situation and played the wife and mother. And tried to explain to Irene, based on personal experience, that there can be rewards to motherhood that might compensate for other deficiencies in one's life. But Irene was having none of it.

Charles Rennie Mackintosh seems more likely (did you notice the art nouveau typeface used on Bosinney's office's nameplate?) but I took the tour at this site http://www.crmsociety.com/ and didn't see the horizontal lines FLW's works are noted for.

(suzee) Both were at fault maybe, but the amount of money was insignificant to Soames and all along it was about 'control'for him. I thought he was benevolently giving the job to Bosinney. As he explained to Irene..."keep it in the family". Give the young couple a start. I'd be livid with a builder too who took it upon himself to spend my money without my permission.Never mind how much it was. T'is the principle. My heart went out to poor June when she sees Bosinney across the street in London and calls out to him...only to have him tip his hat to her and walk away. Why didn't he have the guts to tell her the truth.The cheek to walk into the ball with Irene on his arm. They're exhibitionists.

Thanks for the Rennie website...but none of those houses look like Robbin Hill.

How I ached for her - "No! Don't go to the ball" I actually almost cried out. Even her choice of clothes gave me pain. I thought her choice of gown and accessories for the ball were very sophisticated and femme fatale...if you know what I mean. Made me think of a young girl playing dress up, trying too hard to appear grown up. And then to watch her eyes fill with tears when she saw them....heart-breaking. June when she sees Bosinney across the street in London and calls out to him...only to have him tip his hat to her and walk away. then, Gran takes her to Paris, she returns home laden with packages and seems right as rain. This is very upsetting! Non of this I saw last night! I rewatched the video and nada. How could this be? I watched from the beginning. It seems I missed the best parts. Maybe they showed my area the next episode by mistake. I saw Irene's rape by Sloane, I saw her and Bosinney make love. I saw Bosinney get killed, what is going on? Did anyone see what I saw?

Moon, you're describing the episode we've yet to see...sounds like the preview I saw last night for the next episode...except what I knew/didn't really know was coming (regarding Bosinney.) My post above was what would have been, I suppose, episode 3 (assuming the first night on PBS was a double episode...)

(Karen) Right now, about the only character I feel sorry for is June. Poor June. She didn't deserve to have Bossiney's attraction for Irene thrown up in her face in such a public venue. And the way he slowly but surely was dumping her??? Be a man about it, will you? Totally agree. He isn't being much of a man. Felt particularly sorry for June in street scene after she'd been to his office and he just doffed his hat and didn't even speak to her. Not a man IMO. Don't care for him very much and also feel Irene is lacking in manners. There must be a way to do this without hurting other people so openly. Don't like her much either at this point. IMO her talk with Soames mother was very smart, letting her know there was no future with him and that she certainly did not intend to have children with him. Definitely paved the way, so to speak, for whatever she plans to do. Smart move. However, Soames deserves what he gets. He is forcing her to stay with him against her will, which he said he would not do. (Evelyn) I'd be livid with a builder too who took it upon himself to spend my money without my permission.Never mind how much it was. T'is the principle. I agree. I think Bossiney was willingly taking advantage of the family situation. If he was employed by someone else, I'm sure he would have asked permission for over expenditures. Bad business form.

(Moon) Non of this I saw last night! I rewatched the video and nada. How could this be? How on earth is your PBS station showing the next week's installment? I bet their phones are ringing off the hook...unless they're showing the series in some other manner (double episodes each week). (Evelyn) I'd be livid with a builder too who took it upon himself to spend my money without my permission.Never mind how much it was. T'is the principle. Who wouldn't? But the laws have been very much on their side. Have you never heard of a mechanic's lien? Talk about having way too much latitude. ;-) (Pam) However, Soames deserves what he gets. He is forcing her to stay with him against her will, which he said he would not do. Good point. That was a condition of marriage and he's reneging on it. Granted we haven't seen her lift a pinkie to make the marriage a success, but she did ask to leave and he turned her down.

She probably should've gotten that in writing! LOL!

(Karen) She probably should've gotten that in writing! LOL! LOL Karen, that came to you just as you hit submit didn't it? (I hate when that happens!)

(Karen) I would never have doubled the L in modeled. It is not the preferred American style. ;-) Sorry about the doubled L. It just came out that way. I know that �modelled� is the British spelling. I just did not think it over at the time.

He is forcing her to stay with him against her will, which he said he would not do. But.... a) He thought he could get her to love him. b) She never planned to make that marriage a success. If she did,like Moon,...I missed that episode.

(Evelyn) But.... a) He thought he could get her to love him. Am humming to Beatles song, "Fool on [Robbyn] Hill" b) She never planned to make that marriage a success. If she did, like Moon,...I missed that episode. Right, which bugged me last week and made me dislike her then.

How on earth is your PBS station showing the next week's installment? I bet their phones are ringing off the hook...unless they're showing the series in some other manner (double episodes each week). It was hard, but I got PBS on the line. They did make that mistake and they will be showing us both episodes 2 & 3 next Sunday. I was so upset that I had missed the ball! You know me and balls. I felt so isolated! So I am not going to be able to partake in the discussion this week. :-( Bloody cheek.

(Pam) He is forcing her to stay with him against her will, which he said he would not do. (Evelyn) But.... a) He thought he could get her to love him. But...he needs to cut his losses. Actually, if she and Bosinney hadn't made such a spectacle of themselves at the ball, he might have been able to let her go and still save some face in society. But now that the *everyone* is certain of a relationship between Irene and Bosinney, Soames has been backed into a corner. He's bound to be embarrassed either way. Also, he'd have this huge house...but for whom? Re why all these men are so enamored of Irene...not only does she resemble a hamster, she has virtually no inflection in her speech. Completely devoid of any kind of passion, even with Bosinney. I would think carrying on with Bosinney would cause at least some deep breathing. And is Monty really interested in her too? What was that while they were dancing and out in the garden? Or is he just trying to get a rise out of her?

(Dorine) But now that the *everyone* is certain of a relationship between Irene and Bosinney, Soames has been backed into a corner. How astute, I had missed that part of the dynamic. Maintain appearances at all costs. I would think carrying on with Bosinney would cause at least some deep breathing. At a minimum you would think so, given the subject, 'cept as noted above some think he needs kissing lessons. Just the thought gets my respiration up! And is Monty really interested in her too? What was that while they were dancing and out in the garden? Or is he just trying to get a rise out of her? I liked Monty until that. It took me a minute to think of who that reminded me of...the Jason Alexander character in Pretty Woman who tries to take his shot with Julia Roberts when Richard Gere is not around. The JA character was even more loathesome but it felt like the same "you do it with him so you'll do it with me" opportunistic thing.

Completely devoid of any kind of passion, even with Bosinney. I would think carrying on with Bosinney would cause at least some deep breathing. Devoid of passion???? LOL. Didn't you see when Bosinney asked her to go away with him and she looked shocked: "I'm married" LOL. Then she jumped into bed with him.(And was that a yawner;-((

(Barb re Bosinney) some think he needs kissing lessons I don't have a huge problem with his kissing. I think the problem is he has to work with what he's got...how great can you look when you're kissing what appears to be a dead fish. ;-) And was that a yawner I'm with you there :-)

(moon) You know me and balls. I felt so isolated! Poor baby! Have a sip of champagne, straighten up your tiara, and pretend you were there. ;-) (whoever started this thread) he needs kissing lessons. My main concern was how he was going to kiss her with that hat she was wearing. That took above-average skill (and possibly double-jointedness) on IG's part. ;-0 (Barb) I liked Monty until that...reminded me of...the Jason Alexander character in Pretty Woman who tries to take his shot with Julia Roberts when Richard Gere is not around. The JA character was even more loathesome but it felt like the same "you do it with him so you'll do it with me" opportunistic thing. I too liked Monty and your analysis but am not willing to write him off yet. Perhaps by the next episode. I think he did it to take her down a peg. The sad thing about Soames is that he's unwilling to cut his losses. Instead he wants to take on his rival and he still thinks it's possible for he and Irene to have a marriage. What does he really think taking Irene to Florence would achieve?

(Karen) My main concern was how he was going to kiss her with that hat she was wearing. That took above-average skill... And then she took it off 2 seconds later! How stupid. It was funny to watch that little head dance/maneuver before the kiss though. ;) What does he really think taking Irene to Florence would achieve? Getting her out of town and away from Bosinney. And getting them both away from prying eyes and the whispering for a while...ostensibly to make a new start. He is so idealistic.

(Karen) I think he did it to take her down a peg. You know, I like that perspective, that is actually more in keeping with the feel I had for Monty anyway, though I think there is still something of the opportunistic bad-boy there too.

(Dorine) And is Monty really interested in her too? What was that while they were dancing and out in the garden? Or is he just trying to get a rise out of her? (Karen) I think he did it to take her down a peg. Some of both, maybe? He just can't help himself, he's a bit of a troublemaker. LOL Monte is a scoundrel, albeit a much more adorable one than Soames and, unlike Soames, he probably has at least some redeemable qualities. (Karen) A "Prairie" home, which is supposed to blend into the landscape??? (Suzee)pre-Taliesin (the first). (Evelyn)Interestingly, I've been watching Ken Burns' FLW two-parter. The house looks like the one he built in Montana.Second part tonight on PBS. I didn't say the above -- but I do think FLW is interesting and have read some books about him. I don't really like his houses for myself but they are fun to see. I had to miss the Burn's show when it was on.but hope to catch it when it runs again. What does he really think taking Irene to Florence would achieve? (Dorine)Getting her out of town and away from Bosinney. And getting them both away from prying eyes and the whispering for a while...ostensibly to make a new start. He is so idealistic. He wanted to get her away, yes. Away from any semblance of a life. . He wanted her to have no friends,no activities so he could control her every thought and move like all his other property, like his furniture and his paintings which for years he bought and put in a room where he looked at them and touched them and no one else did. "He is so idealistic" -- Very funny! (Evelyn)Hey, you want a work of art..look at Stephen Dillane as the master and Sophie Marceau as the governess in "Firelight".Young Jo look like a teenager. Oh, I have, I have - over and over LOL (Dillane does another goodie (or two) in 'Deja Vu' - it's worth the rental even if you don't buy it as I did. I think the camera does a full circle for at least one.) But even so, I don't exactly think either makes YJ look like a teenager - at least no teenage boy I ever knew, darn it.

Sorry,closing (I hope) italics

I don't feel sorry for any of them...but at least Soames' liabilities are up front. Miss Goodie-Two-shoes with her virtuous pout and her boyfriend are in the same league under a pretentious facade.

(E)Hey, you want a work of art..look at Stephen Dillane as the master and Sophie Marceau as the governess in "Firelight"...... (Suzee)Oh, I have, I have - over and over LOL (Dillane does another goodie (or two) in 'Deja Vu' - it's worth the rental even if you don't buy it as I did. LOL.Great minds, Suzee....I own both of them too;-))) And did you see him on stage in The Real Thing with JE? Dynamite. Won a Tony ...on his kisses....LOL

(Suzee) I don't really like his houses for myself but they are fun to see. Elizabeth was the one who mentioned the pre-Taliesen period BTW. But I've been in enough FLW houses (his own too) to know they're not great to live in either. LOL! Barb: Monty may well belong in the Stuckey category. We shall see. He's been called a leech here and worse. He may be a Stuckey too. ;-)

(Evelyn) Miss Goodie-Two-shoes with her virtuous pout and her boyfriend are in the same league under a pretentious facade. Goody Two Shoes? Not with that red dress! Reminds me of when Rhett forced Scarlett to wear that red dress to Ashley Wilkes' birthday party and everybody was gossiping about her. Might as well dress the part. ;-)

I have been lurking for the past two weeks because I missed the first hour, but I feel somewhat caught up now... (Karen) Goody Two Shoes? Not with that red dress! The dress was something else! Did anyone notice the straps? They were up and then when she was with Bosinney, they fell off her shoulders... I really dislike Bosinney (sorry). I think he is a total cad right now. He sees June in the street and just tips his hat to her. Then, at the ball he openly flirts with Irene, holding her hand as he walks right by Soames (not that I think he deserves a lot of sympathy). What is it with him? He isn't man enough to call off his engagement (face June and tell her in-person that it is over), yet he will bait Soames in a very public place with his wife! It's not that he is a coward...it's almost as if he is being intentionally cruel to June. Does he resent her 'class' maybe? He openly hates Soames (and I don't think it just because of Irene) and he doesn't appear to love June at all...I'm confused as to what he is all about...suppose I should try to read the book.

I still rather like McKee in the part. In that family where most of the women are short and not raving beauties, I can imagine that Irene, tall and regal etc., would certainly stand out. I wonder, though if her hair and makeup are not part of the problem - the very severe hairdo - and the way she is photographed. (Maybe she needed some advice from some of the older actresses like Doris Day and her gauze, for example!!). There are moments when she is with Bosinney when she is lovely - when her hair is mussed especially. I don't think she is a goodie-two-shoes or cold. Certainly not in last night's show - unless I saw a different one, too. And she is brutally honest - even with the mother-in-law. In the conversation with her M-I-L, I found her desperation, (when she denied being cold) touching. Not that it excused what she did to June. I think, though, that most telling will be how she handles the role in some of the episodes and surprises to come, so will wait to see that. (Barb)But then, Gran takes her to Paris, she returns home laden with packages and seems right as rain. I'm anxious to see if this is a brave girl putting a good face on things or an immature, shallow little girl whose heart really was not touched I feel for June, too. She seems to be a really good person and probably putting up a good front, but also maybe a 'happy person' at heart who simply doesn't stay miserable for a long time (unlike most of the other characters LOL). (suzee) Both were at fault maybe, but the amount of money was insignificant to Soames and all along it was about 'control'for him. I thought he was benevolently giving the job to Bosinney. As he explained to Irene..."keep it in the family". Give the young couple a start. Ack!!!!! Soames did nothing "benevolently" - nothing, I say!! :-) He gave it to Bosinney because he thought that since June was Irene's best friend and it would help June, Irene would find it difficult to refuse the house and the move to the country. It was all about controlling Irene. (Evelyn)And did you see him on stage in The Real Thing with JE? Dynamite. Won a Tony ...on his kisses....LOL No - but I read enough about it to know how good both were - they must be "some kissers" together LOL

(Suzee) He gave it to Bosinney because he thought that since June was Irene's best friend and it would help June, Irene would find it difficult to refuse the house and the move to the country. It was all about controlling Irene. Excellent point! Soames was desperate to remove Irene from the temptations of town. Too bad didn't see trouble brewing in his choice of architect. Maybe she needed some advice from some of the older actresses like Doris Day and her gauze, for example!! LOL! Now I'm envisioning a hazy Irene, with everyone else in sharp focus. :-)

Of course Bosinney's got a little of that cliched tortured artiste mentality going on, too, contracts are an impediment to true art and all that dreck. Hey, I like Ioan, so sue me. ;) Yep, the interiors of real Wrights let in much less light and the space is much more manipulated. Wonder if he built her something where the roof leaks? But on Soames' part, Suzee is right; it was definitely all about controlling Irene.

He gave it to Bosinney because he thought that since June was Irene's best friend and it would help June, Irene would find it difficult to refuse the house and the move to the country. It was all about controlling Irene. I'm sticking to my story.In this instance he was giving the job to "family". Can't see why you have been blinded by Irene. Regardless of the fact that she entered into a marriage with no intentions of making it work, she steals her best friends fiancee. She's a slut.

Soames gave it to "family" only because he thought he could get something for nothing ("make his own terms"/"favored-nation"/"nominal terms": "He had not been able to discover what houses Bosinney had built, nor what his charges were. The impression he gathered was that he would be able to make his own terms. The more he reflected on the idea, the more he liked it. It would be keeping the thing in the family, with Forsytes almost an instinct; and he would be able to get 'favoured-nation,' if not nominal terms--only fair, considering the chance to Bosinney of displaying his talents, for this house must be no common edifice..." and about Irene: "...Irene would not be to likely to object to leave London if her greatest friend's lover were given the job. June's marriage might depend on it. Irene could not decently stand in the way of June's marriage; she would never do that, he knew her too well. And June would be pleased; of this he saw the advantage." and: "He really believed it was only because she had taken to Bosinney that she tolerated the idea of the house at all." I know, I know - that's the book, but the series makers did say they were working closely from the book ;-)

(Evelyn)Can't see why you have been blinded by Irene. Regardless of the fact that she entered into a marriage with no intentions of making it work, she steals her best friends fiancee. She's a slut. I believe I said I rather liked McKee in the part - not that Irene is without fault. And I definitely said nothing excused what she did to June. But she is a human being. (And I think she did try at first re the marriage.) Sheesh! I hope you guys aren't around judging me when I make a mistake. LOL (Elizabeth)Of course Bosinney's got a little of that cliched tortured artiste mentality going on, too, contracts are an impediment to true art and all that dreck. Hey, I like Ioan, so sue me. ;) Bosinney's no prize - I agree he was trying to control and also maybe posture for Irene's sake. He was definitely building the house for her and her only. But He and Soames agreed to a price plus extras - they just had different ideas about how much the extras could be! I watched Sunday's show again and I think Ioan's quite good, and I don't think I would turn down his kisses LOL Anyway, here is someone else who likes him a lot: Entertainment Weekly The Forsytes return in a tale of power, money, love and lust. By Gerri Sutton There are two good reasons to relish the new version of that old classic The Forsyte Saga, one more respectable than the other. One is that it's a super soap of the finest imported variety, frothing with love, lust, envy, deceit and vulgar wealth, charting the end of the Victorian era. The word is lavish-the sets, the costumes, the language, the horseflesh and the real estate-in an adaptation that breathes freshness and youth into a veteran story. The other reason is the sheer perve factor of Ioan Gruffud as the architect Bosinney, who falls foul of the powerful Forsyte family. Gruffud has such dramatic good looks he kidnaps the camera, just as Bosinney steals the hearts of two Forsyte women, June (Gillian Kearney) and Irene (Gina McKee). It is the affair between Bosinney and the beautiful Irene Forsyte (rather a wet fish) that rocks the family's foundations. But before "the buccaneer" enters, this episode introduces the Forsytes, with their peacock pride and fallibility. Among them is young Jolyon (Rupert Graves), disinherited by his father (Corin Redgrave) after he runs away with the governess (Amanda Ooms), abandoning his young daughter. And at the top of the tree, his cousin Soames (Damian Lewis), cruel and calculating, but relentless as he persuades the reluctant Irene to marry him. There are too many fine performers in this epic to be named but Lewis must be for the way he plays Soames as deeply despicable, with the slightest hint of vulnerability. Although in episode four, he almost evokes sympathy. Almost. A�

(Suzee)(And I think she did try at first re the marriage.) Maybe in the book. But I didn't see that in the film (Suzee) Sheesh! I hope you guys aren't around judging me when I make a mistake. LOL Mistake?...*Judge you*? Hon, if you came after my man, I'd hunt you down with a knife;-)

I finally got to see the parts of this episode I had missed. Gee, I thought I missed more. Are you really telling me the first time Irene and Phil were intimate was that apparent afternoon delight that began with the intimate legal pillow talk and kicked into low gear with him getting tangled in her skirts? There were some good parts. June - "I could come to your room." Ah child, he is not worthy of the gift you offer. And Mother Forsyte's conversation with Irene, a mother's pain and Irene's brutal honesty, well done I thought. But what's up with the camera work, the single shots that move focus from one speaker to another further from the camera -- for example, I think, when Irene and Soames were discussing her cancelling the carriage ride with Swithin? Pretty distracting.

(Evelyn)Hon, if you came after my man, I'd hunt you down with a knife;-) Hmmm..hmmm...I was thinking more about the fact that she married someone she didn't love, but...(Note to self: remain in a physical location that is at least 1000 miles apart from Evelyn LOL)

(Barb) what's up with the camera work, the single shots that move focus from one speaker to another further from the camera.... Pretty distracting. LOL! When I was watching, I actually thought that was pretty neat.

(Barb)There were some good parts. June - "I could come to your room." That was heart wrenching - she was offering him *everything*. I love the way June stands up to Soames as at the little foursome dinner party when talking about the women in the park. She tells Soames off beautifully, but it's terrible to see the look on her face when she turns and sees Bosinney looking at her with irritation. He should have been proud!

I still don't understand what was going on with the lilies. Must rewatch to see why there was this powerplay going on. Take them away. No, leave them be. No, take them away. Shut up. Shove them up Soames' !@#$ ;-0 What started it? Didn't Bossiney compliment the table, making a mention of the lilies and then the nonsense between June and Martha Stewart began?

Yes - thanks for reminding me of the lilies, Karen. I even re-watched it to see if I could figure it out. (suzee) That was heart wrenching - she was offering him *everything And talk about a cold reaction! "No, I don't want to take this gift you're offering because I'm busy, and it's none of your business with whom/what I'm busy either." What a heel. Actually, maybe he and Irene deserve one another.

Someone sent me this : "There was a blurb in one of the papers a while back: 'HELENA BONHAM CARTER is set to step into the shoes of Nyree Dawn Porter. HBC is being lined up for the role of Irene in a remake of The Forsyte Saga. Dawn Porter, who died last week, played the character in the original series, which won an audience of over 100 million. Other actors being considered for the pounds 6m ITV series are Michael Gambon, Stephen Dillane and Natasha Little." I assume MG would play Old J, Natasha Little Winifred or Fleur, SD Soames and HBC Irene. I recently saw a pic of Nyree Dawn Porter (Irenee ,TFS '67) and she was a startling beauty. With Kenneth More. Old J.

(Karen) What started it? Didn't Bossiney compliment the table, making a mention of the lilies and then the nonsense between June and Martha Stewart began? I think so - I think Bosinney complimented them, Irene mentioned the great smell and June being justifiably upset said who could like the smell? Irene said take them away, June said don't, etc /so forth/so on!!!! Priceless! Loved poor Wilson trying to decide what to do, caught in the middle. Shove them up Soames' !@#$ ;-0 Good one,old thing. Spot on!! ;-) (I think Monte is getting to me.) I liked the scene in the park,too, when YJ pointed out to OJ that he would be rather an odd choice to talk to Bosinney.

Friday 5th October 2001. Actor Rupert Graves holding an exclusive telephone interview with the website from a noisy and busy Camden. Excerpt: PB: Now then, the big thing you are doing at the moment is obviously The Forsyte Saga for Granada ? Rupert Graves: Yeah, it's from a novel by John Galsworthy - that they are re-doing again....it's a great big saga, one of those things...and what you hope with these things is that it becomes really fascinating when you get to know the character...you need at least two episodes to get into it I think, you hope that people will stick with it for at least two episodes....then it becomes like a monumental 19th century soap opera, it's a real old saga, and it covers the family, from say the 1870's to maybe 1910's.... PB: And you play the role of Young Jolyon... Rupert Graves: Yeah. PB: Do you find it difficult to do roles that have been done before, and do you worry about it a bit , with comparisons and such like ? Rupert Graves: Well, obviously when you say it, people assume that you are making a remake of the TV series, but you're not....like there are many versions of Dickens novels that have been made into films...so it's such a shame...I think the difficult thing is for the producers, who tend to worry about audience numbers, is that it was such a big hit in the 1960's. PB: Yes, I see.. Rupert Graves: Because it was challenging, because it has sex scenes, because it has a rape scene, stuff that had never been shown then...and now it's all over the place, you have films like Intimacy, you know..I mean like oral sex on scene, which is dumb. PB: Exactly. Rupert Graves: I mean, we are going to suffer on the shock front, definitely, well we won't suffer, but we won't have that kind of prurient interest. PB: You mentioned there the audience numbers, which crossed my mind as well, simply because with ITV doing it, they are going to be more interested in ratings as against say The BBC for example. Rupert Graves: Yeah, you might be right there, but there's not being much of that really - we've got a good director for the um..first three episodes, Chris, who is just doing what he wants, he's very good at the politics....and also I think that they are confident that it's going to do alright....the only thing I'm kind of worried about is that people are heartily sickened of period...you know costume dramas on TV again. PB: Yeah. Rupert Graves: However, it is very well written, the books are fantastic, and hopefully the scripts are good - the directors are good, the actors are good - so hopefully it will all come together and make something really good. PB: It's all sounding as though it should really work well then... Rupert Graves: Yeah, you have to get over the audience numbers thing, and hopefully the audience can get over their antipathy towards..you know...period dramas being on TV again - it is great, it's really good. PB: You sound as though,well very enthusiastic..you are really enjoying doing this. Rupert Graves: I am , though I've not been too busy with it at times, I'm not in the first three episodes too much, I'm in the last episodes a lot more, so it's been quite good for me, having a job and only having to work something like two days a week. PB: That's alright then, it's alright for some! Rupert Graves: (Laughing) Yeah!

That should have been "poor Bilson" - not Wilson.

(RG)"the only thing I'm kind of worried about is that people are heartily sickened of period...you know costume dramas on TV again. He thinks TV is bad...he should try a costume drama film. I bet those guys take those jobs only if they're desperate. Spring excluded, of course.We all lap up all the Masterpiece Theatre stuff.

Evelyn, I think Kenneth Moore played Rupert graves part. At least they aged! i think you will all be interested in June's ageing process;-) Say no more! I am following your excellent discussion and viewpoints with great pleasure and wished I had set my video earlier in the year :-(( Won't make that mistake with the second series. Thank you all.

(Lizza) i think you will all be interested in June's ageing process;-) Say no more! Arg!! A teaser...I hate teasers!!

(lizza) Evelyn, I think Kenneth Moore played Rupert graves part. At least they aged! That ole guy is Rupert Graves?

I read that most of the stars of the first series were much too old for their parts in the beginning episodes. Kenneth More (YJ) had been something of a movie "heart throb" but was "aging" - he was in his mid 50's and was actually a few years older than Joseph O'Conor who played OJ. Someone involved with the making of the new series said that they definitely didn't want to repeat that sort of casting. I also read that Porter, although prettily blonde, was not much of an actress. I don't remember the first series very well - it's been a long time since I have seen it (a rerun in the 70's or 80's?). I vaguely remember liking Eric Porter in his part and not liking her (meaning the actors, not the characters). I can't remember much about the others except Susan Hampshire. Lizza, I have also read some interesting comments about June's aging process - if it's the same as your teaser, it will be interesting, but makes little sense to me now - have to wait to see it. I looked up Gillian Kearney's age - she is 30. I certainly think she looked younger in her first scenes! I also noticed she played the young Shirley Valentine, a movie I haven't seen but have intended to rent.

I just read the dinner/lily scene in the book again. When June arrives before dinner and goes to look for Bosinney, she's inside looking out and the room was "filled with a sweet hot scent of flowering azaleas. She took a long breath of the perfume, and heard Bosinney's voice, not in the room, but quite close..." Then she sees B and Irene standing in the midst of the azalea blossoms,she watches them through a "screen" of blossoms and "A wave of the azalea scent drifted into June's face; she felt sick and dizzy." Then when she speaks to let them know she's watching, she says, "I can't bear this scent!" No wonder she'd had it with azaleas/lilies by the time they had dinner. LOL I didn't look at the scene again - guess maybe they were standing among lilies?

Barb.. I hate teasers! I didn't want to say any more and make a teaser a spoiler;-) (Evelyn) That ole guy was Rupert Graves? Yup! Same part. (Suzzee) I can't remember much about the others except Susan Hampshire I saw her on stage last year, she still has a luminous beauty. I expect you remember Martin Jarvis as Jon? Mustn't say any more... more teasers! Yes it's true the original cast were too old for their parts. We will no doubt come back to revisit June and her age quite soon, then you can tell us what you've read;-) Anyone in UK who watches "Coupling" with Emilia Fox, it also stars Ben Miles, Monty, he looks very different (obviously!), worth checking him out. I believe the series is being sold to NBC, but will play with US cast.

(Lizza)I didn't want to say any more and make a teaser a spoiler;-) I know, I know, and I DO thank you. *sigh* I'm awful at Christmas too ;-)

Azaleas? Fragrant? Hmmm, mine are so low to the ground that I wouldn't even know if they were. But will try to remember to check next spring. ;-) So there wasn't a flower arrangement struggle over dinner, huh, Suzee?

There was. It just didn't go on so long - although June disagrees with everything from food to sunsets during dinner (*very* uncomfortable atmosphere): And smilingly Irene said: "The azaleas are so wonderful this year!" To this Bosinney murmured: "Wonderful! The scent's extraordinary!" June said: "How can you like the scent? Sugar, please, Bilson." Sugar was handed her, and Soames remarked: "This charlottes good!" The charlotte was removed. Long silence followed. Irene, beckoning, said: "Take out the azalea, Bilson. Miss June can't bear the scent." "No; let it stay," said June.

(Lizza)I expect you remember Martin Jarvis as Jon? A bit - I certainly remember the story. According to IMDb, he is in one of the new Inspector Lynley mysteries, but not the one we have already seen in the US. (Lizza)Anyone in UK who watches "Coupling" with Emilia Fox, it also stars Ben Miles, Monty Miles was in 'The Life and Crimes of William Palmer' as Thomas Palmer. I can't remember - I'm thinking that may have been Dr. Palmer's brother, but I'm not sure. I think I still have that series on tape somewhere around here. I am definitely interested in seeing more of him.

The British National TV awards were announced yesterday. When the first nominations were announced in July, TFS was included, but it didn't make the shortlist, nor did any of the actors. I'm not sure how the first nominations are determined but the public votes for the final winners. Original Nominees for 'Most popular Drama' (Only the last 3 made the shortlist cut and 'Auf Wiedersehen,Pet' won.) The Bill The Forsyte Saga Spooks Cutting It Band Of Brothers. Casualty Bad Girls A Touch of Frost Auf Wiedersehen, Pet Complete Shortlist: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/2329203.stm Winners: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/2331507.stm#picture --------------------------- Period drama the Forsyte Saga continues... In Rodney Street Oct 7 2002 Daily Post PERIOD drama The Forsyte Saga meant a city centre street needed a complete make-over to film scenes for a new series. Residents of Rodney Street, Liverpool, came home to find the area bustling with vintage cars and characters in period dress. Lead actor Rupert Graves casually walked down the recreation of Harley Street in London dressed in top-hat and long coat. The BBC have written a script which picks up where the original John Galsworthy novel left off and will be unveiled in the spring. It sees Jolyon Forsyte, played by Rupert Graves, aged 20 years as the characters' lives continue with the followup script. Speaking on set, Graves revealed his character, Jolyon Forsyte, has to visit the doctor because of terrible pain in his heart. With theatrical smoke billowing from behind the row of vintage cars, he left fans pondering on his character's future. He said: "It's a brand new script which tries to recreate the spirit of the John Galsworthy concept and we hope it will be a success." http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/page.cfm?objectid=12261016&method=full&siteid=50061

News From Merseyside The Saga Continues... FILMING in Liverpool has started on the second series of hit ITV1 period drama �The Forsyte Saga�. The Granada production, which is based on the novel by John Galsworthy, tells the tale of the lives and loves of English aristocrats James and Emily Forsyte. The high profile cast includes Rupert Graves, Damian Lewis and Wendy Craig as well as local actress Gillian Kearney. Parts of Liverpool will be transformed into Victorian Britain, with scenes to be shot around Canning Street later this month. It will mean signposts being removed, period gas lamps installed temporarily and sand being placed on the road to make the scenes look authentic. Liverpool Cricket Club has been used to depict Lords in a scene which will involve a crowd of more than one hundred extras in period costume. Councillor Warren Bradley, Executive Board member for Leisure and Culture, said: �The Forsyte Saga proved to be one of the biggest TV hits of the year when it was screened earlier this year, and it�s great news that the second series is being filmed here too. �A major theme of our Capital of Culture bid is the fantastic heritage we have in this city � and this is a wonderful way of showing it off to millions of television viewers.� Film Office manager Lynn Saunders added: �I�m delighted to welcome back the Forsyte Saga to the city. I know the production team were very impressed with the variety of locations we were able to offer them last time, coupled with the co-operation they received from the city council and the people of Liverpool.� The first series of the drama attracted up to nine million viewers, and has been hailed as one of ITV1�s biggest successes of the year. The second series is due to be screened next year. ------------------- Press Release: The Forsyte Saga - Second Series. By Granada Media. Filming � 29 August to December 2002 Excerpt: DAMIAN LEWIS, GINA MCKEE and RUPERT GRAVES are to reprise the famous roles of Soames, Irene and Young Jolyon this month when production begins again in Manchester, Liverpool and Cheshire. Key new cast includes EMMA GRIFFITHS MALIN (The Cazalets) and LEE WILLIAMS (The Debt) who will take on the...roles of Fleur and Jon...MICHAEL MALONEY (Prosper Profond) and OLIVER MILBURN (Michael Mont) will also star in the drama, which is to be produced by David Boulter with Executive Producer Sita Williams and written by Kate Brooke and Phil Woods. Andy Wilson is to direct. Producer David Boulter said: �It�s a classic �first love� story. Our adaptation of the third book will have a completely different look and feel to our first series because, apart from the opening scenes, the whole story is set over a two month period in 1920. The story focuses on the individual journeys of the characters and their trials and tribulations. It�s an emotional epic which will make compelling viewing.� ----------- Pic of a home in Manchester: "The gardens of the 20th century estate served as one of the settings for Granada's highly-acclaimed production of the Forsyte Saga" http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/homes/news/stories/Detail_LinkStory=18641.html

First published on Tuesday 15 October 2002: What a saga! Arley becomes home to Forsytes by Gareth Dunning IT WAS lights, camera action at Arley Hall where Granada has been filming the next series of the ITV drama The Forsyte Saga. The grounds were filled with camera crews, trailers and lighting equipment and the actors in the series, based on John Galsworthy's To Let trilogy. With its ancient history and more than 100 acres of picturesque gardens and parklands Arley Hall, near Appleton Thorn, was the perfect setting for the 1920s' period drama. Granada spent the past two weeks at Arley Hall and used Lord Ashcroft's private house and parts of the gardens for filming. Stars including Damian Lewis (Soames) Gina McKee (Irene) from the first series and new cast member Emma Griffith Malin (Fleur) have been filming inside the stately home. Mick Graham, location manager for The Forstye Saga, said: "We chose Arley Hall because it was perfect for the period. "The gardens are fantastic too and it is supposed to be set in Green Park in London and parts of the gardens look similar. "The rooms are beautiful and again are similar to those you might find in an expensive house on Park Lane, London." Arley Hall is certainly not camera shy as the splendid area has been used as a setting for several television programmes including Coronation Street, The Adventures of Sherlock Homes and part of the gardens were used in the first series of The Forsyte Saga. Judy Popley, marketing manager, said: "We are always delighted to welcome television companies into Arley Hall. "We are delighted to have The Forstye Saga crew back and we're looking forward to working with them again." http://www.thisischeshire.co.uk/cheshire/archive/2002/10/15/Warrington_News985ZM.html

Only the last 3 made the shortlist cut and 'Auf Wiedersehen,Pet' won.) Wonder if it was a costume drama;-) Thanks Suzee. Wish they wudda given us a pic of Arley Hall.

Ask and ye shall receive:

Hello all! Am stepping out of lurking to say how much I've enjoyed following your Forsyte conversation. My name is Tori, and I run the "Damian Lewis: Posh Rough" Website (the one with the Forsyte recaps). While I love the series, I have to say that the one character who I definitely do *not* like is Bosinney (no offense to any Ioan-ites). I hate the way he treats June--that scene where he doffs his hat and walks on...ooh! Just want to--grrr... Mixed feelings about Irene, I must admit. I can understand her position, but that bit at the waltz (love that dress) was beyond the pale. Maybe she can't/won't ever love him, but that's no reason to humiliate the guy in front of friends and family. I say this even though I know that his behavior in later episodes makes me wish she'd give him a good kick in the shin. So there ya go. Anyway, my two cents. (And thanks to Moon and Karen for helping me get signed on here. :) Tori

Tori, that's an excellent job you've done with the site. I really enjoyed looking at it. Were you a DL fan prior to Forsyte? I got hooked during Band of Brothers. I think he's terrific. Catching up on the comments on last week's episode: I told you from the start that Monty was a bum, and he proved it last week by hitting on Irene. You people are so taken in by the appearance of goodness.;-) Re: Irene and Bosinney's in-your-face behavior at the ball: whatever happened to discreet cheating? You almost get the sense that they want to be discovered. I know, I know, Soames is not without his faults, but think how humiliating this was for him. Geez, he even offered to take her on vacay to Florence! He wouldn't have to ask me twice.;-) Irene is a big dope.

Nice to see you here, Tori! I agree with Mari, you've done a great job.

Hi Tori. Glad our friends helped you find us...would you pl give us the address of the DL website. I thought DL was terrific as Major Dick Winters too . Thanks Karen for Arley Hall pic. Looks like the same house as "Middlemarch". Good Forsyte discussion on Virtual Views on Pemberley. Consensus: on Irene. Several had seen the original series.

Reading your comments on The Forsyte Saga are really adding to my pleasure in viewing it. You raise many interesting points, plus you're all so entertaining in your posts. I quite like Gina McKee as Irene. She really does remind me of Anjelica Huston, tall, dark and regal. I really do respect the opinions of those who feel she was miscast. As many of you, are probably, have read or are currently reading the Galsworthy novels; you might be familiar with this passage. I feel that it goes a long way in explaining the Soames/Irene marriage. That she was one of those women--not too common in the Anglo-Saxon race--born to be loved and to love, who when not loving are not living, had certainly never even occurred to him. Her power of attraction, he regarded as part of her value as his property; but it made him, indeed, suspect that she could give as well as receive; and she gave him nothing! "Then why did she marry me?' was his continual thought." He had, forgotten his courtship; that year and a half when he had besieged and lain in wait for her, devising schemes for her entertainment, giving her,presents, proposing to her periodically, and keeping her other admirers away with his perpetual presence. He had forgotten the day when, adroitly taking advantage of an acute phase of her dislike to her home surroundings, he crowned his labours with success. If he remembered anything, it was the dainty capriciousness with which the gold-haired, dark-eyed girl had treated him. He certainly did not remember the look on her face--strange, passive, appealing--when suddenly one day she had yielded, and said that she would marry him. Thanks for the articles, links and great discussion.

(Saskia -- from TFS -- re Irene) who when not loving are not living; adroitly taking advantage of an acute phase of her dislike to her home surroundings; He certainly did not remember the look on her face--strange, passive, appealing--when suddenly one day she had yielded Thanks for this Saskia. I'm not an Irene fan though given your insightful citations, I find I might be able to be a Gina McKee fan. She just seems so dead to me. But it seems maybe she is as she should be.

Thanks all for the nice welcome, and the compliments on the Website. Much appreciated. To answer your questions--I'd never heard of Damian before Band of Brothers, and didn't really even pay him much attention until about the 4th or 5th episode. Believe it or not, I think Winters and Soames actually have something in common, in that they both have so much going on beneath the surface. Neither is easily categorized. I think if you want to watch Gina do a remarkable job, watch her in the movie "Croupier." It's a rather odd film, but she is quite good in it. She even smiles! More than once! And yeah, Monty is a bum. You'll see. ;) Tori http://www.chgoredhead2001.com/DamianLewis.html

Welcome, Tori - I've already very much enjoyed looking around your site! (Mari)You people are so taken in by the appearance of goodness.;-) Methinks many of **You People** are soooo taken in by the appearance of Damien Lewis!;-). I really must see this guy in something else so that I don't picture the actor as Soames. Ugh! He makes my skin crawl. If I had to be in a room alone with Monty or Soames, Monty would win hands down. I wouldn't have lasted as long as Irene with Soames creeping around, watching me and - worse - touching me. (I'm thinking he is a good actor to give this impression.) Monte is a scoundrel and weak but more of a human being than Soames (and I know the rest of the story). If Soames had treated him with some modicum of respect, Monty may have had a chance at success. I believe he did care for his wife. As you all know, I agree with Saskia about Gina McKee. And I think the producers should have included more of the little clues about those first two years of the Soames/Irene marriage. Besides Soames' thoughts about how Irene tried to love him, but just couldn't, there is another passage that is even more telling. This is just after she has asked him to let her go. He, of course, has conveniently forgotten his promise (some "gentleman" - he has a very selective memory) and tells her that she is talking nonsense; she should just behave herself. The he insists that (against her will) she go to the park with him, they sit on a bench and: . "It was some time since he had enjoyed her company in the Park. That was one of the past delights of the first two seasons of his married life, when to feel himself the possessor of this gracious creature before all London had been his greatest, though secret, pride. How many afternoons had he not sat beside her, extremely neat, with light grey gloves and faint, supercilious smile, nodding to acquaintances, and now and again removing his hat. His light grey gloves were still on his hands, and on his lips his smile sardonic, but where the feeling in his heart? The seats were emptying fast, but still he kept her there, silent and pale, as though to work out a secret punishment. Once or twice he made some comment, and she bent her head, or answered "Yes" with a tired smile." ---------- Also Good Forsyte discussion on HW Forums - "Potpourri" Board Consensus: thumbs UP on Irene (and McKee);-D

(Mari) You almost get the sense that they want to be discovered. Interesting point. Maybe that's the only way Irene thinks she can force Soames' hand, that he'll have to let her go or dump her. (Mari) I told you from the start that Monty was a bum, and he proved it last week by hitting on Irene. I'm still reserving judgment on him because I didn't take his hitting on Irene seriously. OK, next week, he'll probably be batting Freddie around and I'll have to turn on him too. ;-) Thanks for the passage from the book, Saskia. That only made me more critical of the production, because we didn't get a sense of how ardently Soames pursued Irene and how he drove off other potential suitors. Much as I love Gina M (and I do), Croupier isn't her film. Go find Michael Winterbottom's Wonderland. Go buy Wonderland. The music is magnificent as well.

(Mari) You people are so taken in by the appearance of goodness.;-) (Chgo Redhead) And yeah, Monty is a bum. You'll see. ;) I believe I am convinced. Among them all, there is not goodness "enough to make one good sort of man" (Sorry, mixing my novels but the J Austen quote seemed too apt.)

(Barb)I believe I am convinced. Among them all, there is not goodness "enough to make one good sort of man" I think you hit the nail on the head!!! Galsworthy didn't give us any heroes. He was supposedly skewering the entire English middle class. I read an essay about his books where the writer speculated that because he wrote the story over such a long period of time, he changed his mind or his attitude about certain of his characters and so allowed them to have redeeming (or not) qualities that surprised even him. 'A Man of Property' was published in 1904 (or 1906) and at the time was intended to stand-alone - he supposedly didn't plan more about the family. But that changed. Besides the rest of the"Saga", there are three short novels, which were published as "A Modern Comedy" in 1928/29 (in his preface for that, he claimed he still did not know "precisely what [Soames] stands for.") and still more up until 1931. He died in 1933. Also interesting is the fact that Galsworthy lived secretly with his future wife for 10 years. His father didn't approve of her and he didn't marry her until his father died and he became financially independent. She had been married before (to Galsworthy's cousin) and he used her unhappy first marriage as the basis for Irene and Soames, including some of the specifics we have yet to see. BTW, I think this upcoming episode will end where the first book does.

Thank you Tori, for the terrific DL website. V. comprehensive. I remember reading that in casting for BoB,Stephen Speilberg remembered DL as Laertes in "Hamlet" on B'way with Rafe Fiennes. Will have to check him out on Mickey Love ,a TV play from 1993. Also with JE and Alan Cumming.Love all those early works. Just for the record, I liked Gina Mc Kee too in Notting Hill. Thought she had more chemistry with Hugh Bonneville than with current lover Boissney. That's my objection to her acting skills in this production. She is so one dimensional; same languid expression (or expressionless!) throughout. Where's the passion?Nada. Perhaps in Eps #4, she'll warm up;-)

I didn't see Wonderland (wide release?). But I did see Croupier. Don't remember her as Marion Nell. Was she the girlfriend? Terrific film, BTW. Seen it twice; LOL, to figure it out.

(Ev) Thought she had more chemistry with Hugh Bonneville Really? He didn't play her husband, but was the friend who worked in the City. ;-)

LOL. Ooops....I *really* meant Hugh Grant;-) (But thanks for the *winkie*)

(Suzee) Also Good Forsyte discussion on HW Forums - "Potpourri" Board Consensus: thumbs UP on Irene (and McKee);-D Thanks, Suzee, for the information about the Forsyte discussion at HW Forums and for posting the passage concerning Soames forcing Irene to go to the park with him. I thought that in particular this passage was particularly telling. That was one of the past delights of the first two seasons of his married life, when to feel himself the possessor of this gracious creature before all London had been his greatest, though secret, pride. That perfectly expresses the point that Soames is indeed "the man of property" and Irene is very much a prized possession. But I do think that, in his way, he does love her as much as he is able. It's just that she finds him repellent, emotionally, intellectually and physically. Soames wants desperately to be loved by Irene, yet he almost literally makes her sick. Karen is right, Wonderland is a great movie and Gina McKee is terrific in it. Tori, thanks for the link to your Damian Lewis site. It looks great. I think that your comment about the characters, Richard Winters and Soames Forsyte, having points of similiarity was interesting. Like you, I also, really liked GM in Croupier and she did actually smile, more than once, in it! One more thing about the character of Irene. It seems that Nyree Dawn Porter wasn't the first actress to have played her. No, actually it was Greer Garson, who at one time also played Elizabeth Bennett. It was in a 1949 Hollywood adaptation of The Man of Property titled That Forsyte Woman. Errol Flynn played Soames. Here's are some links concerning it. http://www.allmovie.com/cg/avg.dll and http://home.clara.net/digger/that.htm

I'm so confused. I didn't know if I wanted to type "Here are some links..." or "Here's some links..." So I make a mess by typing "Here's some links..." Anyway...I hope it made sense.

I'm posting this because I'd forgotten that the All Movie site can be a real pain when posting links. If you clicked on the first link that I posted and got an error message, please try this. http://www.allmovie.com/ Which will take you to the main page of the site. Then type That Forsyte Woman into the search window and enter. That is only if you're interested, of course.

Thanks for the links, Saskia - however you typed them! I vaguely remember this movie as not very good. I love Greer Garson, but IMO Errol Flynn was a lousy actor. I most remember a very young, very pretty Janet Leigh. It would be interesting to see it again now. -------------- Here's a link to the Madame X portrait mentioned before: http://www.jssgallery.org/Paintings/Madame_X.htm ---------------- I don't think this has been posted before: The Hollywood Reporter The Forsyte Saga Oct. 04, 2002 By Laurence Vittes Thirty years ago, the original "Forsyte Saga" started a craze for sophisticated soap operas that led to the rise of Masterpiece Theatre and, along with it, public television. Now, PBS brings back an outstanding new version that will make new converts and perhaps even convince some old-timers. It's never easy to remake a classic, but Granada and WGBH have risen to the challenge with a superb new production of the entertainment, based on the novels of John Galsworthy, that created an insatiable appetite for miniseries of the sophisticated British kind. Spread over seven Sundays, the eight hours of this gorgeous new version feature a brilliant cast working with a series of scripts that time the relentless twists and turns of the Forsyte fortunes with hair-trigger accuracy. It's a little slow-going at first, as all miniseries must inevitably be when they have to introduce such a large cast of characters. But once away, there's hardly room to take a breath. A large amount of the credit must go to directors Christopher Menaul and David Moore, who employ an unusually varied repertoire of emotionally charged angles and perspectives that, aided by some razor-sharp cutting, allow viewers to get to know the actors on a very intimate basis -- including some heart-pounding seduction scenes that leave very little to the imagination. Assembling a large cast of such high quality cannot have been easy, especially when the producers were obviously intent on finding actors whose charismatic looks, instead of being conventionally beautiful, were reflective of their personalities. Indeed, the degree to which the protagonists in this tawdry story -- Damian Lewis as colder-than-ice Soames Forsyte and Gina McKee as his sultry, unwilling bride -- project the intensity of their roles is at times powerful beyond belief. Key roles in the first two hours are played by Corin Redgrave, who epitomizes the tragic class consciousness of the old guard without becoming sentimental; Rupert Graves, whose struggle toward decency never becomes cloying; Amanda Ooms, who summons up unsuspected beauty and courage from her plain face; and Ioan Gruffudd, who blossoms into beauty before the viewer's eyes. True, some old-timers may miss the more refined elegance of the original. And, of course, some cynics may see this new version as bordering on a Monty Python-type parody. But all in all, it's hard to imagine it being done better.

Great analogy Karen on the red dress between Scarlet and Irene. Were that it was Ms. Leigh as Irene. What a difference an actress can make.

(Saskia)It's just that she finds him repellent, emotionally, intellectually and physically. Soames wants desperately to be loved by Irene, yet he almost literally makes her sick I read another interesting passage last night that indicated how Irene did try at first to be a wife to Soames, but did find him repellent. It seems clear that when she married him, she had no idea what marriage involved, i.e. sex. If she knew it involved some kind of closeness, she didn't know what it really meant. She says that she knew the first week of marriage that she had done a terrible wrong by marrying him, that only then did she realize what a horrid mistake she had made. This makes sense because a young girl at that time often did not know anything about sex - especially if a single father had raised her. To think that she could marry him and be a wife - entertaining, keeping a home, going about, etc. is much different from marrying him and being that physically close. Part of the reason that Irene is so repressed, so sad, so devoid of emotion is that she had reached the bottom, she really gave up. She is described more than once as 'passive.' She had tried, but simply could not feel anything but disgust for Soames and she despised herself for it, she believed that she was a bad person. I think she is very depressed, almost in a fog, and then when she is able to feel 'something' for Bosinney, she is so relieved and thrilled, she doesn't care about anything else - she does want Soames to know and to let her go as he promised. It gives her courage in a way to simply know that she can feel love for someone after all. The more I read, the more I realize how perfect McKee is for this part. This woman was not a cutesy type, or a super-model type or a Southern Belle type. Someone described her (McKee as Irene) as a paragon of British upper-class beauty (at that time) - she was beautiful, not "pretty." A standard issue pretty actress would be wrong. There was a mystery abou Irene, a sense that she was unattainable. The fact that she seemed emotionally withdrawn, that it was impossible to understand what was going on inside her -- these things were what made her so attractive to men rather than simply perfect features as we think of them today. BTW, there is more 'possess'/'possessing'/'possessed'/'possession' in this book than in Possession :)

(Suzee) I read another interesting passage last night that indicated how Irene did try at first to be a wife to Soames, but did find him repellent. It seems clear that when she married him, she had no idea what marriage involved, i.e. sex. I think the production has done us a huge disservice by not attempting some representation of that. It would do so much to explain that relationship which is central to so much. With that understanding of extreme depression and self-hatred, Irene (as played by McKee) is more understandable. Still annoying but understandable. And I don't think it would have taken an Andrew Davies with his single common denominator (sex) to fashion a traumatizing wedding night that would have filled in many of the weak areas. I think she is very depressed, almost in a fog, and then when she is able to feel 'something' for Bosinney, she is so relieved and thrilled, she doesn't care about anything else... It gives her courage in a way to simply know that she can feel love for someone after all. But why Bosinney? Despite the fact I think Ioan Gruffudd is a hot little firecracker, Bosinney is egotistical, despicable and very self-centered. Soames in a prettier package? Not enough to explain her night-and-day response to him. Suzee, thank you for posting what you are finding. The insights are great and it helps me to remember I almost could not get through P&P because the Mrs. Bennet character was so annoying.

(Suzee)she had no idea what marriage involved, i.e. sex. If she knew it involved some kind of closeness, she didn't know what it really meant She's more of a dud than I thought.(Mc Kee was perfect casting in that light).And beats me how Galsworthy got a Nobel for this one; the pickings must have been slim that year. I think Middlemarch was much better in content and execution. I read the same thing,Suzee. Apparently Irene writes a letter at the end(!) explaining all.Too late!

Evelyn, are you reading the book now? Wasn't Middlemarch published much earlier? 1870's? I think these books are wonderful. I am amazed at how easy to read and modern the writing is. The passage in the book I referred to seemed to illuminate Irene's sadness and regret over what she had done in marrying Soames. It struck me as sort of "if only I had known then what I found out during the first week of marriage, I wouldm't have done it." Girls in Victorian times were not duds if they knew nothing of sex. It often wasn't discussed. **Someone** had to explain it to them - and I don't think Step Mom was thinking enough about Irene to have that discussion. (She probably would have been afraid to bring it up after finding Soames for fear it would stop Irene from marrying him.) I haven't reached the Irene letter - guess I'm not that far yet. I'm not sure if that is in the part of the book that is the current TV show?

(Barb)I think the production has done us a huge disservice by not attempting some representation of that. It would do so much to explain that relationship which is central to so much I agree. I wonder if this was because they were afraid Soames would be seen as the only bad guy? It seems clear that both were at fault even in the book. I also wonder if any of this background will be revealed in future episodes. The way the book is written, we learn about the past at different times well into the story so it's possible. But why Bosinney? Despite the fact I think Ioan Gruffudd is a hot little firecracker, Bosinney is egotistical, despicable and very self-centered. Soames in a prettier package? Not enough to explain her night-and-day response to him. He was there??? And in IG's body?? LOL Agree about Bosinney's qualities, but then again, he is a very pretty package! I don't think this is explained even in the book, but it is clear that she is madly in love with him. Some points are made that both are artistic, that they have a lot in common. They are always deep in conversation when they are seen walking together. Maybe it was the physical attraction, which she had not felt before - and who can explain that? A good point about "Soames in a prettier package" because in the book, he and Bosinney are described as very much alike in many ways and that is partly why they clash all the time over building the house.

(Suzee)Evelyn, are you reading the book now? Oh God no.And don't plan to. Story is strictly soap opera stuff.And I dislike all the characters;not one has a redeeming bone in his/her body. Besides, by the time I finish the TV series I will have given John Galsworthy 26 hrs of my life... I should read his book too??? (Suzee)He was there??? And in IG's body?? LOL Agree about Bosinney's qualities, but then again, he is a very pretty package! All I can say is..."With a friend like Irene...." She's a witch.

(Suzee) I also wonder if any of this background will be revealed in future episodes. The way the book is written, we learn about the past at different times well into the story so it's possible. Interesting point. (Me) But why Bosinney? (Suzee) He was there??? And in IG's body?? LOL OK, sold. I'm a believer, I'm easy, but I'm a believer. (Evelyn) Besides, by the time I finish the TV series I will have given John Galsworthy 26 hrs of my life... I should read his book too??? LOL Evelyn, the thought occurred to me I might read the book, but now you put it that way, I guess I'd need to like some one of these people more before I'd spend more time with them.

For the Gruffudd fans here, I just noticed that one of my PBS stations is running both parts of Great Expectations in about an hour and a half - starting at 12:30 am (EST).

(Evelyn) All I can say is..."With a friend like Irene...." She's a witch. But one with v.g. taste in china. *thumbs up* ;-) (Barb) But why Bosinney?...Not enough to explain her night-and-day response to him. As I recall, it wasn't immediate like love at first sight based on pure physical attraction. In their case, it was a shared artistic bent and one he didn't really share with June. Irene catches his eye after the "arty" comment and he looks like he's sizing her up, assessing what is behind that serene facade. And so the world turns...

(Evelyn)Story is strictly soap opera stuff Oh, my. Galsworthy really was anticipatory: J.R., Sue Ellen and Bobby hangin'out at Robin Hill...

(Suzee) Oh, my. Galsworthy really was anticipatory: Apropos...I read somewhere that Galsworthy depicted Irene as the 'modern' woman who entered this Victorian family. Surely not know anything about the intimacies of marriage. Am I making this up?Anybody else read this?

(Evelyn)I read somewhere that Galsworthy depicted Irene as the 'modern' woman who entered this Victorian family Galsworthy wrote that Irene represented beauty (beauty = that which Forsytes wished to possess) and a desire for freedom. Both of those interfered with ownership and possession such as the Forsytes believed was their right. She was no modern woman when she married Soames, rather a young girl completely dependent upon her stepmother. Had she been more modern then, she would never have married him. But the instinct was there - remember, she said that she wanted to marry for love and she didn't want to be bought - and circumstances led her to become more modern in the sense that she wanted her freedom from Soames and her independence at any cost. She learned (the hard way) that being independent, even if it meant being poor, was more tolerable than belonging to, being a possession of, someone like Soames. And that's something modern women have learned, and in some cases are still learning. (I don't want to say more re Irene until more is shown in the series.)

I meant both of those things combined - beauty and a desire for freedom - interfered. Most of the other 'things' that the Forsytes owned didn't seek freedom.:)

Annual Fund Raising Newsflash for Australian Drooleurs We're making it easier and easier to make international donations. For those who haven't availed themselves of PayPal, we now have new Country Rep for Australia. Jane Scott has volunteered to collect funds on our behalf and will be able to transmit them to us when this drive is through. You may contact her directly at gaea@mailcity.com for her mailing address or other questions.

(Suzee) being a possession of, someone like Soames. And that's something modern women have learned, and in some cases are still learning. I don't mean to be adversarial here...but I've known women who relished the adulation and being the center of their husband's life.If this is possession, they seemed v. happy in that role.

TO KAREN, FOR ORGANIZING THIS FUNDRAISING And to Jane Scott in Australia and Lizza in UK for assisting....

Courtesy of the New Yorker....

Oh, I so dislike both Soames and Irene now. Revoke my 'feminist sympathizer' card if you must, but what she said to June was inexcusable IMO. I was cheering for June when she stood up to her in return. And I still don't feel sorry for Irene; she knew she didn't care for Soames, much less feel the slightest bit of affection for him, when she married him. Otherwise, why would she have made him promise her freedom if it failed? The late Bosinney showed his arse as well, with the "Why did I listen to YOU" as he stomped out the door. I don't really like any of these folks very much, except perhaps June and Old Jolyon, who have both had their bad moments too and are now steadily working to redeem themselves. So is Young Jolyon, come to think of it. Damian Lewis is really pulling it off; he looked like unintentional evil incarnate standing at the foot of the stairs, going through her things, looking out the window when he realized she'd gone... The way he sniffed at her clothes made it very clear that he sees her as just another expensive possession, IMO, almost as though he expected to find her in the wardrobe like all his other purchased goods and chattels, a place for everything and everything in its place. God, did that morgue look like the height of authentic clean-scrubbed gloom or what?

(Evelyn)I don't mean to be adversarial here...but I've known women who relished the adulation and being the center of their husband's life.If this is possession, they seemed v. happy in that role I doubt verrrry seriously if that included women with husbands like Soames, especially husbands who raped them. Certainly I hope it doesn't. ("Someone like Soames" being the operative phrase in what I said.)

I was surprised that she went back. I dont' understand that woman very well, she's in shock and still wants a way out. Did Irene and Bosinney pass each other in the fog before Bosinney's death?

(Elizabeth S) Oh, I so dislike both Soames and Irene now....I don't really like any of these folks very much, Ditto to your entire statement Elizabeth. I started to copy in the applicable parts and decided to just "ditto". Especially Soames looking like evil incarnate. I'm not as sure though about June redeeming herself of late. Her victorious demeanor when she went to Bosinney's rooms did not make sense for me once we understood he had lost. Irene's perception of the situation, that June would believe Phil would be more willing to come back around now he had nothing, made great sense. I don't fault June so much, I don't think she is maliciously manipulative (yet, who knows what comes later,) I think she just acts and thinks in the way she's been exposed to. What is sad is that if her ploy had been successful, she would have been buying him as surely as Soames bought Irene. Does she really think so little of herself? And June's attack on the "lifeless" Irene, I wondered if she had been reading here? I also don't like feeling like the serpent is back in young Jolyon's garden either. I have no idea how that story line will play out but it can't be good and the saddest thing is that with all the good intentions in the world, OJ is probably going to bring great pain to his son and his family.

(Barb) Her victorious demeanor when she went to Bosinney's rooms did not make sense for me once we understood he had lost. I didn't understand that at all. Why would she seem so happy (when she thought it was his footsteps she heard), knowing that he'd lost the case? Was she thinking that she'd break the bad news, and then be there to console him? And I dislike all the characters;not one has a redeeming bone in his/her body. Besides, by the time I finish the TV series I will have given John Galsworthy 26 hrs of my life... I should read his book too??? I wholeheartedly agree! Before MT's miniseries started, I thought I might read TFS, but watching this is enough to convince me that I really don't want to do there! I thought this episode was definitely the best thus far. DL is certainly doing a fine job. Thought GM was better in this episode -- actually showed a little emotion.

(Barb) Her victorious demeanor when she went to Bosinney's rooms did not make sense for me once we understood he had lost. I didn't understand that at all. Why would she seem so happy (when she thought it was his footsteps she heard), knowing that he'd lost the case? Was she thinking that she'd break the bad news, and then be there to console him? And I dislike all the characters;not one has a redeeming bone in his/her body. Besides, by the time I finish the TV series I will have given John Galsworthy 26 hrs of my life... I should read his book too??? I wholeheartedly agree! Before MT's miniseries started, I thought I might read TFS, but watching this is enough to convince me that I really don't want to go there! I thought this episode was definitely the best thus far. DL is certainly doing a fine job. Thought GM was better in this episode -- actually showed a little emotion.

Oops. Sorry!!

It was nice to see more of Rupert Graves tonight. YJ and June are my favorites, even if they both have their own flaws. (Kathy) Thought GM was better in this episode -- actually showed a little emotion. Here and there she did, but I still wasn't impressed. At the end when Soames (can he spell "denial"?) was prattling on about a new start, shouldn't her face have shown pain, hatred, revulsion, disbelief.... something? The camera sat there on her forever, so I assume there was supposed to be some sort of emotional reaction, but I didn't see one. By contrast, I was impressed by the woman playing the housekeeper, who had to communicate her distress as the observer of some terrible events, yet whose job required her to maintain outer calm and detachment. DL is certainly doing a fine job. He sure is. Soames is cold - almost reptilian - much of the time, and yet we get glimpses of something underneath. And it's fascinating that Soames seems to be totally unaware of how despicable his behavior is. Of course, back then they wouldn't have acknowledged that it was possible to rape one's wife, right? So in his mind he was asserting his rights, not committing an atrocity.

(Rika) At the end when Soames (can he spell "denial"?) was prattling on about a new start, shouldn't her face have shown pain, hatred, revulsion, disbelief.... something? The camera sat there on her forever, so I assume there was supposed to be some sort of emotional reaction, but I didn't see one. True, she looked rather like she was sucking on a lemon, or perhaps trying to dislodge some particle of food from her teeth. Yet prior to that scene, she had actually managed to achieve tears. Perhaps I was being too kind earlier. I'm trying to find something positive in all this. (Rika) Soames is cold - almost reptilian - much of the time, and yet we get glimpses of something underneath. And it's fascinating that Soames seems to be totally unaware of how despicable his behavior is...back then they wouldn't have acknowledged that it was possible to rape one's wife, right? So in his mind he was asserting his rights, not committing an atrocity. Definitely! Watching him undress, I looked for something in his face that would indicate he understood the violence of his intended actions. There was nothing. It was merely Soames' usual "you're my wife" mentality.

(Rika) shouldn't her face have shown pain, hatred, revulsion, disbelief.... something? The camera sat there on her forever, so I assume there was supposed to be some sort of emotional reaction, but I didn't see one. I saw a tear fall from her left (I think) eye. You could only see it very briefly at one angle. When the camera moved you couldn't see it, and matter of fact, when she was shot from the side, just before she started up the stairs again, her face looked dry. A little continuity faux pas to me. Soames is cold - almost reptilian - much of the time, and yet we get glimpses of something underneath. I was impressed how he looked as if he was going to cry, either from sadness or anger, but stifled it, when he was in her room after reading that note she left.

Wonderfully dramatic episode! I really think GMcK did some fine work, consistent with her "stone-line" character (as June said) and DL was superb as well. Could anyone be more odious? Doubtful. The rape scene was gut-wrenching to watch and who wouldn't have pitied Irene for that one scene alone. However, I too found it impossible to believe that she would return to the house, after Bosinney was killed and YJ offered to help her out either by taking her in or putting her up in a hotel. Surely, someone who had experienced love and made a commitment to a lover to leave her husband could not return. Yes, her world was turned upside down and she might again feel like she had no alternatives, but sheesh (!!) hadn't she learned anything for being with Soames all those years? Hadn't she figured out that she should've tried to work for a living instead of going with marriage. Uggghhhh! That last scene was also unbelievable from the standpoint of the cuckolded husband. Even though Soames viewed her as a possession, wouldn't most husbands slam the door in her face? Then, Soames' words on the stairs. Good gracious, someone put this man in an institution! All working out for the best? They would have another chance? He's from another planet. He has lost all sense of reality. *shiver* And Irene's reaction to that was in keeping with her retreat to stony facades. Disbelief and disdain tucked under the surface. While she was still in shock, if I were she and heard my odious husband say those things, I probably would've catapulted myself at him, hoping to break his neck! You know it's good when it engenders such emotional responses. BTW, I thought June nailed it, when she told Irene off.

A decent guide to the series: http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-7197/

Why would she[June] seem so happy (when she thought it was his footsteps she heard), knowing that he'd lost the case? She still loved Bosinney...any excuse to just be near him. Like any woman in love. Great dramatic acting here. Rape scene was painful to watch. But I've seen worse ("Sunshine" with RF and JE. Gut wrenching). Even though Soames viewed her as a possession, wouldn't most husbands slam the door in her face? I dunno...now she's his captive as well. He knows what a weakling she is. Any woman with intelligence and self-respect would have taken Young J. up on his offer to come to his home for a while and get her life together. But no, she goes back Soames..knowing what's in store for her. I 'm supposed to have sympathy for this woman? Reptilian is a word used a lot in the reviews to describe Soames. LOL he was such a nice guy in BoB. Some actor! Anybody else get confused with all those old men..all have beards and chops. Is June going to be the martyr in this story...never marry? How about that fog? You don't see that often in current Brit movies.Just the old ones with Vivien Leigh and Robert Taylor! Sorry IG checked out so fast.Barely half-way through.

(Karen) And Irene's reaction to that was in keeping with her retreat to stony facades. Disbelief and disdain tucked under the surface. I'm glad you can see those things under the surface - I want to, but I just just don't, and it's why GM isn't doing it for me in this role. I don't expect her to throw screaming fits like she did at Bosinney's club, but her eyes seem vacant to me most of the time, and the eyes should be the place where her repressed emotions sneak out. Maybe I'm just spoiled by the expressive eyes of a certain actor and so my expectations are too high. :-) (Evelyn) Anybody else get confused with all those old men..all have beards and chops. Oh, thank goodness it isn't just me. I need them all to line up in a row with name badges so I can learn to tell them apart. Any woman with intelligence and self-respect would have taken Young J. up on his offer to come to his home for a while and get her life together. I had a shred of respect for her when she gave her reason for not doing so - out of consideration for June - though it's a little late to start thinking about June's feelings. But going back to Soames was a potentially dangerous choice, considering what he'd done to her even before she left him for another man. Certainly she must know that she can expect, at minimum, more of the same, and maybe worse.

(Evelyn) Anybody else get confused with all those old men..all have beards and chops. Other than OJ and Soames father (James??), what other ones were there? Surely all the clerks in the law offices didn't confuse you or the members of the club. Now, that tall blonde guy, I believe his name is George, and who is at all family functions and was at the court with Dartie...he's a character! Ever listen to the stuff that comes out fo his mouth? Is he related to someone or just a friend? (Rika) I don't expect her to throw screaming fits like she did at Bosinney's club, but her eyes seem vacant to me most of the time Normally, I'd agree but I thought she really shined in this episode in those scenes where she had to express pain (still deficient in the love dept IMO). At Bosinney's club, I thought the way her grief finally slowly and painfully seeped out was wonderful. The stony-faced one was cracking, despite how hard she tried to keep it in. But by the time she got home, she was done, empty of all feelings, drained, until Soames welcomed her home with his hopes for a new beginning. The expression on her face was disbelief and disdain for this man.

(Rika)I'm glad you can see those things under the surface - I want to, but I just just don't. Agreed. June had the best lines last night when she told her, "Don't just stand there like a stone statue" (am paraphrsaing), and "I'd like to shake some like into you." I'm not sure if it's Gina McK's failure or a failing of the script. Where's Irene's stepmother in all this? She shoved her into marriage and isn't available now to give her any support. (Karen)That last scene was also unbelievable from the standpoint of the cuckolded husband. Even though Soames viewed her as a possession, wouldn't most husbands slam the door in her face? He loves her irrationally. There's no logic to it.

(Barb S) I'm not as sure though about June redeeming herself of late. Her victorious demeanor when she went to Bosinney's rooms did not make sense for me once we understood he had lost. I think June went there because she thought that w/o money or prospects for the future, he may feel vulnerable...realize that he needed her. She knew the gossip about Irene, and I'm sure she may have thought that Bosinney might think that a woman like Irene would never be with him w/o cash or a future. I think she was trying to win/buy his love back. She was desperate...not calculating (IMO). So in love with a man who would not return her love (just like Soames and Irene). (Rika) But going back to Soames was a potentially dangerous choice, considering what he'd done to her even before she left him for another man. Very dangerous choice. I think she was acting very much like an abused spouse. You always wonder why they go back to their abusers. I think she just had too much to deal with....Emotionally she felt drained (after being raped, after her confrontation with June, learning that Bosinney had lost the case, finding out that Bosinney had been killed...all within 24 hours...it is a lot to deal with and process). I do agree with June's comment about her 'sucking the life out of others' (sorry, I can't remember her exact words). It's as if she lacks some ability to feel, and is attracted to those who can 'do it for her' (Bossiney is described as the Buccaneer by the family, and has that 'artistic temperment'). Soames is too like Irene for her to love....nothing to'suck the life out of'.....

(Mari) I'm not sure if it's Gina McK's failure or a failing of the script. With June's comment (which I thought was great as well), doesn't that tell you Irene is supposed to be emotionless on the exterior? I thought the way GMK cracked was right on the money for a person like that and then she turned back into stone again. He loves her irrationally. There's no logic to it. OK, but he has reacted logically by going after the lover and trying to take her away. He would have to have absolutely no ego or self-esteem to take her back in given everyone's knowledge of Irene's affair. Sorry but it doesn't seem realistic to me. How many years can a person go on trying to gain someone's love without realizing it is a hopeless case? At some point (like this one), he would have to come to the realization.

(Tress)...sucking the life out of Great comment, rang true for me when I heard it. (Karen) With June's comment (which I thought was great as well), doesn't that tell you Irene is supposed to be emotionless on the exterior? I thought the way GMK cracked was right on the money ... Agreed. In fact, I hate that I can't remember his exact words, but the camera is on her and he says something like "just like it was" (?) and that single tear falls down her face...her first evidence of emotional response that affected me. Regarding going back to Soames at all...I thought it rather pathetically underscored the total nothingness that was left for her and the fact that none of it mattered anyway, sort of "if I'm dead already, I might as well be here as not." That Soames took her back at all I have more trouble with, though as with the court case, for him, it must be the principle of the thing. It will be apparent to society he has won at all costs, but he becomes a pathetic picture into the bargain. What price victory?

ITV shortens 'highbrow' Forsyte Saga By Chris Hastings and Charlotte Edwardes (Filed: 23/09/2001) ITV has scrapped plans to film a complete version of the The Forsyte Saga fearing that the programme could prove too highbrow for viewers. Despite the fact that the BBC made one of the most celebrated British drama series ever screened when it based a series on the John Galsworthy books in 1967, ITV is concerned that modern audiences might not be gripped by the sprawling drama of the Forsyte family between 1879 and 1926. The commercial channel, which originally announced that it was to spend �14 million on an adaptation of the nine-volume story, will now film only six episodes, which will cover the first two books. The programme makers will then wait to judge audience reaction before committing themselves to any further episodes. ITV announced plans for a new adaptation in August 2000. It did not say it was a partial adaptation. At the time, Simon Lewis, the controller of drama, said: "These novels are as relevant and entertaining as when they were first adapted in the 1960s. We are convinced the combination of sex, power and money will again make great drama." The adaptation will compound fears that ITV has abandoned its commitment to quality drama in the face of pressure from advertisers to come up with undemanding popular entertainment. The show is being produced by Granada, the Manchester company that won international acclaim in the early 1980s for its adaptations of Evelyn Waugh's Brideshead Revisited and Paul Scott's The Raj Quartet. Scott's four novels, which were filmed as The Jewel In The Crown, were adapted in their entirety. The plan to film only the first two books has infuriated the family of John Galsworthy, who only learnt of the changes last week. They are worried that the new version, which stars Corin Redgrave, Gina McKee and Damian Lewis, will not compare well with the BBC version. In 1967, the cast list included Kenneth More, Michael York and Nyree Dawn Porter. The series gave Susan Hampshire her first big role. Jocelyn Galsworthy, the author's great-niece said: "It seems very strange that they now won't make the complete series. "I think it shows an overall lack of confidence in the project. They have got the BBC adaptation hanging over their heads and I think they know they can't compete with it." Miss Goldsworthy has been in contact with the producers to express concern about the way characters in the novels will be treated."It's only a gut feeling but I don't think the new version will work," she said. "I think there will be a tendency to make it raunchier and with lots of sex, and I think that will prove fatal." Christopher Sinclair-Stevenson, who is Galsworthy's literary agent, told The Telegraph: "I am also worried how the producers will treat some of the characters in the novels. The rape of Irene Forsyte is a crucial part of the story and was brilliantly handled by the BBC. In the original it was touched on very slightly and very delicately. I just have a feeling it won't be like that this time around." A spokesman for Granada defended the decision to wait and see how the audience reacted to the first instalment. "It is the way things are done today," she said. Zita Williams, who is the producing the current adaptation, said: "I am sure the programme will prove popular with viewers. There is a feeling that the audience is ready for something different. This show will provide that. The books and the original BBC adaptation are like national treasures but I think people are genuinely delighted we are pushing ahead with this." Comparisons with the original black-and-white BBC version will be hard to avoid. The 26-part series attracted six million viewers for its first showing on BBC2; the second, on BBC1, attracted up to 18 million viewers. The adaptation also drew a global audience of more than 160 million. Hampshire, who played Fleur in the original BBC adaptation, told The Telegraph: "ITV, probably quite rightly, think the first few books are more powerful and easier to adapt, but having said that, the BBC decided to do the entire series and they had a tremendous success with it. "Everyone who had a speaking role had a major role. As a result they were very committed to the project and that was part of the reason for its success. My character will not even appear in this version."

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that young Jolyon is slightly taken be Irene? They way she looked at him before she enters the house... she's trouble.

*******Make sure you note that the article was written in 2001********* (lit agent) "I am also worried how the producers will treat some of the characters in the novels. The rape of Irene Forsyte is a crucial part of the story and was brilliantly handled by the BBC. In the original it was touched on very slightly and very delicately. I just have a feeling it won't be like that this time around." But that was 35 years ago, when that *couldn't* be shown on television. To me, what is more important than a comparison with an old TV show is how did Galsworthy treat it in the novel. If it was "crucial" as he says, then I doubt it was glossed over. Seems a little contradictory to me and typical of someone who is apprehensive, has reservations, is an old fogey, etc. ;-) Since other articles have said nothing in the book is expressed through Irene's POV, how was the rape handled?

(Tress)So in love with a man who would not return her[June] love (just like Soames and Irene) Good one Tress....You got the exact comparison tht Galsworthy is telling us. Didn't you like when Irene tells June...."Your friendship is what saved me". With that pathetic look on her face. Awwww. She was never contrite..like "it was fate and I couldn't help it." Think Galsworthy is peaking through June? I get Soames father and OJ mixed up.(Duh...they're brothers.) LOL That's why I thought at first Young J and Soames were brothers. I know, I know...I'm thick.

Re "ITV shortens 'highbrow' Forsyte Saga" - can't remember if I posted the follow-up, but the decision to go ahead with the second part was given as soon as the first week's ratings (UK) were so good. (Karen) is an old fogey, etc. ;-) Hee,hee... BTW, if you go to the TV Tome link, there are huge ***spoilers*** in the blurb with the "Welcome" - be careful!!!!

(Terry)I was surprised that she went back. I dont' understand that woman very well, (Karen) However, I too found it impossible to believe that she would return to the house, (Evelyn)Any woman with intelligence and self-respect would have taken Young J. up on his offer (Rika) I had a shred of respect for her when she gave her reason for not doing so - out of consideration for June - (Barb) Regarding going back to Soames at all...I thought it rather pathetically underscored the total nothingness that was left for her and the fact that none of it mattered anyway, sort of "if I'm dead already, I might as well be here as not I think Barb has the idea as we are supposed to get it, but again this is changed slightly from the book and I'm not sure why. The rewrite gave us the great scene of Irene going through the club - my heart was in my throat - but still. In the book Soames goes home and finds her sitting there like a "wounded animal" who crawled back because she didn't know what else to do. Looking at her then is what absolutely convinces him that she had slept with Bosinney. We are not told how she got there and he assumes she found out about the death some way - heard it on the street or read it, etc. They don't talk, everything is happening in Soames head. Meanwhile, OJ and YJ decide they should try to help Irene, that she should not be "alone" in that house and YJ goes to the house. Soames tell YJ that his wife can see no one. YJ catches a glimpse of Irene in the hall and then Soames says, "This is my house. I manage my own affairs. I've told you once - I tell you again, we are not at home." Then he slams the oor in YJ's face. That's the end of the book!!!! Ack! I'm glad I wasn't reading then with no second book to read. Galsworthy made his point, but I would have thrown something at him instead of Soames. Sort a GWTW ending without the hope of tomorrow-is-another-day. The TV ending is harder to understand except for the June part and the fact that Irene for all purposes is "dead." (Of course, personally, if YJ looked at me with those eyes, I would have gone wherever he suggested. LOL)

Suzee, thanks for your insights from the book. While it's true I'll probably never read it, it is still interesting to see the comparisons. Thanks!

(Karen)With June's comment (which I thought was great as well), doesn't that tell you Irene is supposed to be emotionless on the exterior? Maybe I didn't explain my comment well. I meant that I didn't know if it was McKee's or the script's fault that the viewer doesn't have a more sympathetic view of Irene (as presumably a reader of the book does, or at least it appears that way from the postings here). (Moon)Is it just me, or does anyone else think that young Jolyon is slightly taken be Irene? God knows why. What is there to like? She has no personality that I can discern. I think Young J felt pity for her. But I wouldn't put it past him to take up with her; would be as realistic as anything else in this series.;-)

Suzee, the June/Irene confrontation isn't in the book? (Suzee) Soames tell YJ that his wife can see no one. YJ catches a glimpse of Irene in the hall and then Soames says, "This is my house. I manage my own affairs. I've told you once - I tell you again, we are not at home." Then he slams the door in YJ's face. That's the end of the book!!! That would have been the end of BCC too.

Thanks Suzee for the detail from the book. That certainly is different and makes her appear even more pathetic than I already view her. OK, now I'm getting militant!! Doesn't she know anybody in London? See what you get for only befriending a relative who you then betray? (Soames) "This is my house. I manage my own affairs. I've told you once - I tell you again, we are not at home." And he manages them so well. BTW, I loved that Irene left that note in the jewelry box. What a great touch. (Mari) the viewer doesn't have a more sympathetic view of Irene I thought we'd all come to the conclusion that there were no wholly sympathetic characters in the entire series. ;-) So, Suzee, tell us about the rape scene in the book. Did Bosinney know about it?

(Karen)that last scene was also unbelievable from the standpoint of the cuckolded husband. Even though Soames viewed her as a possession, wouldn't most husbands slam the door in her face? (Mari)He loves her irrationally. There's no logic to it I think you said it earlier Karen: "someone put this man in an institution! He's from another planet. He has lost all sense of reality." So true. His thoughts are going round in his head and are all over the place -I should turn her out, I should divorce her/I should let her go, she's suffered enough/ I could make a slave of her, she's under my power now. But in the end he can't do anything and just wonders why he should have to suffer - what have I done, it's not my fault, etc. She is his property and that's that. He's not capable of making rational decisions. Ohhh, and the rape and the way he says at the end "If only it could always be like this." GOG, This man needs help, except I'm not convinced he can be helped!! But I do love Old Jolyn! Someday, I'm going to make a list of my favorite OJ moments. Last night: when he took his will and his business away from the family firm/when he said Soames wouldn't know how to spell "principle"/when he said "She'll be waiting" and let it hang there while they all knew it meant Irene but all pretended it meant June! Oh, and when he told YJ that he (YJ) was even less of a Forstye than he'd thought and then said he was grateful for that! OJ has come a long way!!! I thought some of the moments last night between YJ and his wife were touching, too. At least it's clear they really love each other and it seems to be lasting.

(Suzee) At least it's clear they really love each other and it seems to be lasting. ******knocking on wood real hard******** (Moon)Is it just me, or does anyone else think that young Jolyon is slightly taken be Irene? SSSssssss said the serpent in the garden....

The rape scene is told in Soames thoughts, too, but it's pretty much as shown. And his thoughts go 'round and 'round again, but he convinces himself that he did the right thing and has problably saved the marriage by doing it. Guy can convince himself of anything. George Forsyte is out in the fog and sees Bosinney and Irene talking at the train station, both looking awful. Then Bosinney runs off into the night, muttering and stumbling and George follows, knowing something is wrong and thinking to help him. George hears enough to know what happened between Irene and Soames and to figure out that Bosinney is going after Soames (which rather pleases him as he can't stand Soames either). It's clear that Bosinney is extremely agitated as he crosses from side to side of the street without paying any attention to what is around him. Then George loses him. The next thing we know is that B doesn't show up for the trial.

(Barb)SSSssssss said the serpent in the garden... LOL!

(Evelyn)the June/Irene confrontation isn't in the book? It is. And June thinks ahead of time that B will lose the case and makes her plans. (Nice as she is, she's still a Forsyte!) She also thinks or hopes that he will not show up in court to defend himself. As soon as she hears he has lost she goes to his room - she is there first and there for a purpose and she does not intend to fail. June is even pleased to see lots of dust because that tells her he has had to give up his maid, plus she notes all the missing (pawned) items. Clearly he will need June's help (read: money). Then Irene comes in. June is enraged because she still thinks B will come soon and doesn't want Irene there when he does. The rest is much the same except there's no slap (and June tells Irene she has no right to be there and Irene says I have no right anywhere - was that in the show?) Basically the conversation is the same. Irene leaves, June is confused about what that means- she goes to the door and says come back but Irene is gone. That's it.

(Karen) thought we'd all come to the conclusion that there were no wholly sympathetic characters in the entire series. ;-) I'm not asking for her to be "wholly" sympathetic. Even slightly would do. (Suzee)His thoughts are going round in his head and are all over the place -I should turn her out, I should divorce her/I should let her go, she's suffered enough/ I could make a slave of her, But we see none of this in the series, at least not so far. Maybe it's in the book, but it sure ain't on the screen.

(Suzee) At least it's clear they really love each other and it seems to be lasting. (Barb)******knocking on wood real hard******** ROTF.My sentiments exactly, Barb.Too lovey-dovey in my books. ...how about the detective suggesting B. death could have been a suicide. What's he getting at? I think Irene lacks street- smarts at best.Actually, this woman has never made a decision and doesn't know how.Clearly Soames didn't fall in love with her for her intelligence or wit....or bod.

(Dorine) I saw tear fall from her left (I think) eye. You could only see it very briefly at one angle. When the camera moved you couldn't see it, and matter of fact, when she was shot from the side, just before she started up the stairs again, her face looked dry. A little continuity faux pas to me. I watched her eyes fill with tears and then overflow on one side, tear rolling down her face. Quick cut - another shot of her face just briefly before she turns to go upstairs -- and no tears. Definitely bad continuity!!! Didn't the editor see this? Or director? Or someone? (Karen) Now, that tall blonde guy, I believe his name is George, and who is at all family functions and was at the court with Dartie...he's a character! Ever listen to the stuff that comes out fo his mouth? Is he related to someone or just a friend? Tall George, a "sardonic" sort and follower of Bosinney, is Soames cousin, son of Roger, nephew of Old Jolyon and of James and Swithin (James' chubbier twin), Timothy, Ann, Hester and Juley. (I think! LOL) (BTW, George tells Dartie about following B and part of what he heard. He refuses to name the woman [Irene], but Dartie knows anyway.)

(Me)At least it's clear they really love each other and it seems to be lasting. (Barb)******knocking on wood real hard******** (Evelyn) ROTF.My sentiments exactly, Barb.Too lovey-dovey in my books. Too lovey dovey? Is this the same romantic Evelyn who said "I've known women who relished the adulation and being the center of their husband's life"? ;-)

(Suzee) At least it's clear they really love each other and it seems to be lasting (Barb)******knocking on wood real hard******** (Evelyn) Too lovey-dovey in my books. At the risk of sounding dense, why is this a bad thing? Is it because he already left one woman for another and you think he'll probably do it again?

(Suzee)Is this the same romantic Evelyn who said "I've known women who relished the adulation and being the center of their husband's life"? ;-) LOL.

(Dorine) At the risk of sounding dense, why is this a bad thing? Is it because he already left one woman for another and you think he'll probably do it again? No, I think it's because they're tempting the gods by being happy. In stories like this you're better off being only mildly happy - anything more than that and you're probably being set up for a big fall.

(Rika) No, I think it's because they're tempting the gods by being happy. In stories like this you're better off being only mildly happy - anything more than that and you're probably being set up for a big fall. What she said. It's like this...see, I'm a recruiter, I've got this location we can't keep fully staffed to save my soul. And G*d help us, when we get close, WE DON'T SAY IT! It's a karma thing, you don't tempt fate (sorry, returning from meaningless real life digression....) and he's a Forsyte and the fates are laying in wait for him.

(Barb) WE DON'T SAY IT! It's a karma thing, you don't tempt fate LOL! I do the same thing! And you're right they are asking for trouble just by being happy. But they have had quite a long time together. BTW, when was this filmed? I saw RG in The Elephant Man on B'way a few months ago and he wasn't looking as adorable in that as he is in TFS. He looks much thinner in the series.

(Karen) BTW, I loved that Irene left that note in the jewelry box. What a great touch. IMO, the best thing Irene has done thus far! (Dorine) At the risk of sounding dense, why is this a bad thing? Is it because he already left one woman for another and you think he'll probably do it again? That's exactly what I was thinking. This is, unfortunately, usually the way it goes in real life. Once a man has found a way to rationalize dumping one wife, it's even easier to dump a second (or a third, fourth...).

(Dorine) I saw RG in The Elephant Man on B'way a few months ago and he wasn't looking as adorable in that as he is in TFS. He looks much thinner in the series I read a recent interview in which RG said he gained weight after he stopped smoking and had to start going to the gym to work it off. Apparently, he has lost the weight and is still not smoking. So hurray for quitting the ciggies. (I saw photos of TEM, though - he still looked pretty good to me. :)

(Dorine) And you're right they are asking for trouble just by being happy. But they have had quite a long time together. Ah, but I'm worried that is a masterful attempt to lull us into a false sense of security! I REALLY have not seen any spoilers and did not see the old story, I promise, but we have lovely, lonely OJ making reconciliation overtures to YJ, we have YJ and Helene making a glowing restatement of their devotion to one another and we have YJ playing 'knight-in-shining-armor' when Irene's world comes crashing down around her. And he's an artist (pardon me, is that a prejudice showing?) I hope I am wrong. I'm sorry to be severe on them (and such a cynic), but there it is.

Barb, I hope you're wrong too, but I worried about that when I watched the last episode, and I hadn't even connected the dots to the fact that he's (gasp) an artist.

(Suzee) Someday, I'm going to make a list of my favorite OJ moments. I'd put the Bronco chase scene near the top of the list. ;-) One of the many irrationalities of Soames' behavior stems from the length of time they've been married. Isn't it like nine years? (or am I recalling another interval flashed on the screen?) Love is irrational, as Mari says, but realistically, how long does a person go on thinking he can make his wife love him when she's been rejecting him for that long? Unless he's hoping for her to get a brain injury, trauma or amnesia, her feelings wouldn't change and would only get worse. *shaking head* (Moon)Is it just me, or does anyone else think that young Jolyon is slightly taken be Irene? I didn't see anything except concern. However--and I've been avoiding spoiler information like the plague--I have heard a smidgen about what will transpire and am not a happy camper. (Suzee) And his thoughts go 'round and 'round again, but he convinces himself that he did the right thing and has problably saved the marriage by doing it. Guy can convince himself of anything. Lordy, lordy!! Even Rhett was ashamed of his *ungentlemanly* behavior the next morning. (Rika) I think it's because they're tempting the gods by being happy. In stories like this you're better off being only mildly happy - anything more than that and you're probably being set up for a big fall. Excellent observation. Ya' see, these formulas have been around for a long time.

(Dorine) BTW, when was this filmed? They filmed this in the fall of 2001. In fact, according to the Damian interview on the PBS Web site, they filmed the rape scene on September 11. From the interview: Is it very difficult to do a scene like that? Yes, it's horrible to do. And it was all the more horrible because we happened to be filming it on September 11th. Gina and I were doing this harrowing scene as news was filtering in about what was happening in New York. It was a very weird, very upsetting day. We were just acting, and meanwhile this real thing was going on.

(Karen) Lordy, lordy!! Even Rhett was ashamed of his *ungentlemanly* behavior the next morning. Esp since he was drunk. Did anyone think the ruby necklace was a way of saying "I'm sorry". (Heinous crime, I'm not defending him)

And so was Soames. (Evelyn) Did anyone think the ruby necklace was a way of saying "I'm sorry". If it were anybody else but Soames, then yes. But since it was Soames, he was probably giving her the gift to thank her for lovely evening. ;-) And as an inducement for more. See what you get, girlie, if you let me into your bedroom?

(Karen) See what you get, girlie, if you let me into your bedroom? ACK! Yuckpoo, nasty taste in my mouth on that one. You're right though...had not given much thought to his motivation but that sure rings true....but gawd, now I need to go wash.

And being the twisted person he was, Soames would interpret Irene's door being unlocked that night as an invitation. :-(

(Suzee)The rape scene is told in Soames thoughts, too, but it's pretty much as shown. And his thoughts go 'round and 'round again, but he convinces himself that he did the right thing and has probably saved the marriage by doing it. Guy can convince himself of anything. This is a passage from the novel concerning some of Soames thoughts and actions as he tried to set about the routine of his life the day after the rape. In his corner of the first-class compartment filled with City men the smothered sobbing still haunted him, so he opened the Times with the rich crackle that drowns all lesser sounds, and, barricaded behind it, set himself steadily to con the news. He read that a Recorder had charged a grand jury on the previous day with a more than usually long list of offences. He read of three murders, five manslaughters, seven arsons, and as many as eleven rapes--a surprisingly high number--in addition to many less conspicuous crimes, to be tried during a coming Sessions; and from one piece of news he went on to another, keeping the paper well before his face. Maybe somebody here can clarify this for me. Under the law of the time Soames, in fact, wouldn't have been seen as someone who committed a rape. His acts might have been sanctioned by the law and society at large. Is it a fact that Soames would've been considered within his rights to have beaten Irene with a stick no thicker than his thumb, if he'd chosen? (Moon in quote from Telegraph article)Christopher Sinclair-Stevenson, who is Galsworthy's literary agent,..."The rape of Irene Forsyte is a crucial part of the story and was brilliantly handled by the BBC. In the original it was touched on very slightly and very delicately. I just have a feeling it won't be like that this time around." Here's a link from an Eric Porter fansite. It's of how the rape was handled in the BBC's adaptation of The Forsyte Saga. A word of warning about exploring this site though, it does have lots of spoilers about upcoming plot developments. So if you don't want to know what's in store for the Forsytes, you might be advised to not check around the site at large. Again here's the link. http://www.ceejbot.com/EricPorter/Forsyte/episode_06/episode_06.end.mov For those of you who have trouble loading it, please try this. http://www.apple.com/quicktime/

(Saskia) Under the law of the time Soames, in fact, wouldn't have been seen as someone who committed a rape. Quite right but the distinction I think still holds between what is legal and what is morally right. They are married and he can do with her what he likes, pretty much. Interesting site. I didn't play the clips (or check around for other chapters), but there are screen caps of Chapter 6 here: http://www.ceejbot.com/EricPorter/Forsyte/episode06.php and under the rape bits, you see Soames dialogue: "Any man can have you, is that it? Well, I can too! You're my wife!" Here is some Commentary on that episode: This is the episode that shocked the television viewership of the UK. We see Soames at his darkest, allowing sexual jealousy to spill over into business decisions (suing Bosinney despite the certainty that he'll lose the money and the costs, because Bosinney will go bankrupt), and into an act of violence that will reverberate through the rest of his life. And yet we feel a little sorry for him, because he clearly cares for Irene, though he has no way to express that caring. The rape is not depicted directly in the novel, but is instead described indirectly by a nervous Galsworthy. The hints are that it was much less violent than the shocking act Eric Porter gives us. The television depiction of the rape has its genesis in a scene from the novel, in which Soames watches Irene come home, give a donation to an organ grinder, and enter the house. He complains about her blouse and demands to know where she's been. The novel scene ends with Soames wondering why he doesn't follow Irene up the stairs, and being prevented by his awareness that she'd just come from Bosinney. The television script takes off from that point, getting energy from the barely controlled sexual violence of Porter's earlier portrayals of Soames. We get a hint of the psychology with his shouted dialog: "Any man can have you, is that it? Well, I can too! You're my wife!" He has previously explained away her aversion to him as frigidity. Faced with the knowledge that she is not frigid, and has given herself willing to another man, Soames concludes that she is in fact promiscuous, and is denying him out of malice. The attraction of his rival Bosinney is minimized in this view. Or something like that. The camera catches a bloodstain on Irene's blouse in the assault. The blood is actually Eric Porter's. While ripping off Irene's blouse, he gashed his hand on her brooch. Nyree Dawn Porter later said, "I didn't have any difficulty putting on a horrified expression. When I looked down and saw blood, I thought: 'What has he done to me?'" In reading what you posted from the book, Soames was indeed bothered by the events of the night before (sobbing that haunted him), but he wasn't about to let it continue. His choice of reading (all the murders, etc.) seemed to put it into perspective, as not so bad.

(Saskia) Under the law of the time Soames, in fact, wouldn't have been seen as someone who committed a rape. (Karen, And being the twisted person he was, Soames would interpret Irene's door being unlocked that night as an invitation. :-( So in Soames eyes, he did not rape her.

(Me)Someday, I'm going to make a list of my favorite OJ moments. (Karen)I'd put the Bronco chase scene near the top of the list That list is already complete. Check the archives for Old Topic 666. ;) (Moon)Is it just me, or does anyone else think that young Jolyon is slightly taken be Irene? (Karen)I didn't see anything except concern. However--and I've been avoiding spoiler information like the plague--I have heard a smidgen about what will transpire and am not a happy camper Rumors, rumors, rumors... what is the old saying about repeating rumors? (Evelyn) Did anyone think the ruby necklace was a way of saying "I'm sorry You are looking for the pony?;-) I think he had "reclaimed" her as his wife, his property and this is what one did - part of keeping one's property looking it's best. I'm going to look again, but I thought the rape scene was handled well in this version - especially considering what you see on film today. The camera work was excellent - my strongest images are of Irene trying to get away, Soames slamming her against the wall and of her sobbing and covering her face with her hands. I still think the creepiest part was Soames' whispered, "Why can't it always be like this?" (Something he overheard on the street - he could only "mirror" real people and didn't even know which ones to copy.) Ugh. Joining Barb in the washroom now. (Karen)I thought we'd all come to the conclusion that there were no wholly sympathetic characters in the entire series. ;-) Well, there is one wholly sympathetic, beautifully written character who never lets us down --- Balthasar, the dog.

The thing about Soames that sometimes makes him almost (**almost**) sympathetic is that he is truly handicapped. He is like a mildly retarded person caught between two worlds. He knows enough to know he isn't completely normal, but he doesn't know enough to be any other way. He can't quite grasp what is wrong. So there is 'something' somewhere in him that knows he did a bad thing by raping Irene, yet he can overcome that feeling and convince himself that he did the right thing. And by the last chapter he sees himself as the only one in the right. From the book: The morning after a certain night on which Soames at last asserted his rights and acted like a man, he breakfasted alone... He ate steadily, but at times a sensation as though he could not swallow attacked him. Had he been right to yield to his overmastering hunger of the night before, and break down the resistance which he had suffered now too long from this woman who was his lawful and solemnly constituted helpmate? He was strangely haunted by the recollection of her face, from before which, to soothe her, he had tried to pull her hands--of her terrible smothered sobbing, the like of which he had never heard, and still seemed to hear; and he was still haunted by the odd, intolerable feeling of remorse and shame he had felt, as he stood looking at her by the flame of the single candle, before silently slinking away. And somehow, now that he had acted like this, he was surprised at himself. Two nights before, at Winifred Dartie's, he had taken Mrs. MacAnder into dinner. She had said to him, looking in his face with her sharp, greenish eyes: "And so your wife is a great friend of that Mr. Bosinney's?" Not deigning to ask what she meant, he had brooded over her words. They had roused in him a fierce jealousy, which, with the peculiar perversion of this instinct, had turned to fiercer desire. Without the incentive of Mrs. MacAnder's words he might never have done what he had done. Without their incentive and the accident of finding his wife's door for once unlocked, which had enabled him to steal upon her asleep. Slumber had removed his doubts, but the morning brought them again. One thought comforted him: No one would know--it was not the sort of thing that she would speak about. And, indeed, when the vehicle of his daily business life, which needed so imperatively the grease of clear and practical thought, started rolling once more with the reading of his letters, those nightmare-like doubts began to assume less extravagant importance at the back of his mind. The incident was really not of great moment; women made a fuss about it in books; but in the cool judgment of right-thinking men, of men of the world, of such as he recollected often received praise in the Divorce Court, he had but done his best to sustain the sanctity of marriage, to prevent her from abandoning her duty, possibly, if she were still seeing Bosinney, from.... No, he did not regret it. Now that the first step towards reconciliation had been taken, the rest would be comparatively--comparatively....

Thanks for all the great commentary ladies. I thought this was the best episode so far, acting-wise. I, too, am fearful of something with YJ and Irene. As you say no one is going to be happy in this one. If Irene goes after a married man though, especially a family member, even though ostricized this would look pretty bad, don't you think? Let's hope she uses a bit of decorum although must admit she doesn't seem to have much.

(Evelyn) How about that fog? You don't see that often in current Brit movies.Just the old ones with Vivien Leigh and Robert Taylor! The fog was really something. I started to look around for Jack the RipperLOL Couldn't see anything, except I could see too much of the gruesome scene when Bosinney rolled out from under the carriage! (Karen) I really think GMcK did some fine work, consistent with her "stone-line" character ...Then, Soames' words on the stairs. And Irene's reaction to that was in keeping with her retreat to stony facades. Disbelief and disdain tucked under the surface. An excellent observation. Another description of Irene in the book (during the years we have seen so far) "[her face] like a mask, with something going on beneath it." (Karen) One of the many irrationalities of Soames' behavior stems from the length of time they've been married. Isn't it like nine years? Not nearly that long. I think it was more like 3-4 years. I just discovered that there is a complete family tree in the front of my book, but as Irene is a "wife" there is no birth date. Plus there seem to be some discrepancies with the dates in the book - not a lot, only a year or two. But Irene was at most mid-twenties when Bosinney died. (Of course, she could have married at 16, but I don't think so. I just can't remember where I read the 3 or so years.) Someone on another list suggested that Dartie and George should have their own comedy show!!!

Maybe the 9 year title was between YJ leaving wife and the next segment where Soames goes to Bournemouth. (Suzee) Someone on another list suggested that Dartie and George should have their own comedy show!!! They are a riot, on the sidelines, making their little jabs and snide remarks.

Pics of the CGI house and garden created by Matt Wood for the series: http://www.mattwood3d.com/image_pages/FS1.htm http://www.mattwood3d.com/image_pages/FS2.htm

Just a few thoughts tonight to start the ball rolling... To begin with, who are these kinder, gentler Forsytes and what have they done with the real ones? This was so different in tone it could almost be an alternate universe. I love old Jolyon. I even like his dog. (That's saying a lot for me, ask my DH.) Irene's content and at peace looks don't differ all that much from her distraught and conflicted looks. Is there an acting school that teaches minimal use of facial muscles? With that said, I liked her better tonight. One of the differences I suppose is she got to show some humor ("should have stayed with polite chit chat.") So many more impressions, but I'll yield for now and give someone else a chance to exhibit.

(Barb) who are these kinder, gentler Forsytes and what have they done with the real ones? LOL!! Everybody forgiving everybody. *am sobbing profusely* ;-) It started out so well, with Irene walking out. Then I felt blissful in that she didn't reappear for nearly 25 minutes (did check clock) and I was bordering on ecstatic that she wouldn't make an appearance at all. An Irene-free episode!! That being said, I did like the OJ-Irene scenes, especially when she related what had transpired. I can understand her empathy for Ladies of the Night, but at least many of them like what they do. Did everyone not jump to their feet and shout "Bravo" to June when she went after Soames at the funeral! What a speech! Did she not give him what-for? Not only was that a episode highlight for me, but only a speech like that would've caused Soames to came to his senses and send him to his sick bed. His mother's assessment--that he loved too much--was a revelation not only to us but to him. Ah yes, now I can feel a teensy bit sorry for the poor reptile. ;-) But the best part was coming attractions. Rupert has cut his hair (nicely slicked down) and only has a trim mustache. Yipee!!! Oh yeah and before I forget: Bad Montie. Bad Montie. Cheating on Winnie. :-(

Ya'll must have watched a different show! I thought McKee was wonderful tonight - pitch perfect! As was CR. [Not to mention Balthasar the dog] :-) And Soames!!! Please! Mommie should have taught him not to love so much? Let Sister and Mommie make sure Soames doesn't take any responsibility for the situation. Let them make sure he blames it all on Irene (or them). Give me a break!!!!! The big disgusting self-centered reprehensible baby. Yuck! (Karen)but at least many of them like what they do Huh? Bravo June! Bad Montie...bad Montie...bad Montie...bad...bad...bad...

(Barb) To begin with, who are these kinder, gentler Forsytes and what have they done with the real ones? LOL! It's now science fiction with the same characters in an alternate universe. (Karen) Did everyone not jump to their feet and shout "Bravo" to June when she went after Soames at the funeral! What a speech! Did she not give him what-for? Yes, indeed!.... shouting "June, you go girlfriend!" ;-) His mother's assessment--that he loved too much--was a revelation not only to us but to him. Ah yes, now I can feel a teensy bit sorry for the poor reptile. ;-) I started to feel bad for him as he so obviously can't let himself go a bit and just have a good cry and get it over with, even in front of his family. Couldn't do it by himself last week after Irene left him either. It looks so painful trying to keep it in control. But the best part was coming attractions. Rupert has cut his hair (nicely slicked down) and only has a trim mustache. Yipee!!! LOL! I perked up on that, too. Am completely fascinated at how all these Forsyte men just line up for Irene, one after the other. Poor OJ, too. He seemed so happy, even if it was with Irene. She can't catch a break either. Did he sign the codicil to the will so she'll get the money he left her? Did anyone notice that sound just before OJ came down the stairs in the middle of the night thinking Irene was at the piano? It sounded like the same sound/animal cry that was in P&P when Darcy was writing the letter after the proposal.

Burns, Forsyte rate for PBS By John Eggerton Broadcasting & Cable 10/23/2002 3:14:00 PM PBS appears to have scored with its showcase of Ken Burns fare and its new take on The Forsyte Saga. PBS shows that are aired on the same night, which include Ken Burns American Stories and Masterpiece Theatre, are averaging a 2.0 Nielsen Media Research rating for the first five weeks of its season. That�s up 18 percent over the same period last year.

I loved the way old Jolyon physically changed last night. His facial expressions from pure happiness to pain. He almost seemed like a different person. (Karen), Did everyone not jump to their feet and shout "Bravo" to June when she went after Soames at the funeral! What a speech! Did she not give him what-for? Not only was that a episode highlight for me, but only a speech like that would've caused Soames to came to his senses and send him to his sick bed. Big highlight for me too. She was great! And we now know that she forgave Irene for falling for Phil. His mother's assessment--that he loved too much--was a revelation not only to us but to him. Ah yes, now I can feel a teensy bit sorry for the poor reptile. ;-) (suzee), Please! Mommie should have taught him not to love so much? Let Sister and Mommie make sure Soames doesn't take any responsibility for the situation. Let them make sure he blames it all on Irene (or them). LOL, suzee! I felt it more like Karen did, but you have a very good point. But the best part was coming attractions. Rupert has cut his hair (nicely slicked down) and only has a trim mustache. Yipee!!! I liked him as the "artiste" too. ;-D Ruperet does look like he will be taking control (as a Forsyte does), soon. Can't wait! Oh yeah and before I forget: Bad Montie. Bad Montie. Cheating on Winnie. :-( Might this have come about because her family never backed him in his original plans for business. The Forsytes have not treated him very well in that respect. Does anyone here really like the house?

(Suzee) I thought McKee was wonderful tonight - pitch perfect! So did I. My not wanting to see her was based on past episodes and I was tired of seeing the stoic, unsympathetic Irene. Let Sister and Mommie make sure Soames doesn't take any responsibility for the situation. Let them make sure he blames it all on Irene (or them). I found this very plausible. Naturally they'd side with blood, not to mention the fact that she's been an ungrateful woman who wouldn't perform the role of dutiful wife, as they both have. Did you see the look on the mother's face when she was told Irene took measures not to become pregnant? You'd think that she had committed the crime of the century (perhaps it was). Being barren (or thought to be barren) is one thing; this was another. Besides, they had to have something bad to pin on her. Everyone knew she left without taking her Forsyte jewels, another insult which pointed up the fact that her situation was so bad, she's leave with only the clothes on her back. No, these is totally understandable. Soames' immediate family has to characterize her as the bad guy. Her faults were at odds with society's norms (not being a wife and adultery).

(Karen) It started out so well, with Irene walking out. Agreed, this was the only thing that made sense after last week when it made no sense that she came back. (Suzee) I thought McKee was wonderful tonight - pitch perfect! Oh, I liked her too! It's just in pondering her performance, some things don't change much. She's such a minimalist in this role (IMO). But for this episode, minimalist felt right, sort of like everything else is burned away and peace is all that remains. That was the impression she left me with anyway. (Karen)Did everyone not jump to their feet and shout "Bravo" to June when she went after Soames at the funeral! Yes yes yes! That girl's eyes can spit fire! ..the best part was coming attractions. Rupert has cut his hair... Thought that too, glad to see it looks like he will grow out of his artistic dishabille. (Dorine) Am completely fascinated at how all these Forsyte men just line up for Irene, one after the other. Me too. Do you suppose it's genetic? Imprinted on their DNA? Best laugh=Montie and George at pool. What cads! And thinking back on my prior posts, I acknowledge my excess of cynicism regarding YJ and Helene. They were too happy, it could not last, but it did not end the way I saw it shaping up (YJ eventually throwing her over for Irene.) And one more thing...I have tried to avoid spoilers but it's been impossible not to pick up on a few names. Have to admit I thought Fleur would be introduced with Irene's return, guess I will have to wait to figure out who she is.

(Barb) Have to admit I thought Fleur would be introduced with Irene's return, guess I will have to wait to figure out who she is. Considering that the previews for the next ep show YJ and Soames sparring over Irene, I have an idea who Fleur's parents might be. And I agree with everybody who remarked that they liked Irene last night. It did her a lot of good to take some responsibility for herself and to think about someone's needs besides her own. And she and OJ were rather sweet together.

Will it be revealed how Soames knew Irene and OJ were keeping company? Did he hired a private detective to find her?

(Rika) Considering that the previews for the next ep show YJ and Soames sparring over Irene, I have an idea who Fleur's parents might be. Yeah, that thought occurred to me too but I originally discounted it because I was tangled up in ages. If it turns out to be the case, there will be, what...25 years between YJ's oldest and youngest child? No reason it can't be I guess. (Dorine) She can't catch a break either. Did he sign the codicil to the will so she'll get the money he left her? This thought startled me, had not thought of that, but surely so? Did anyone notice that sound ...? It sounded like the same sound/animal cry that was in P&P when Darcy was writing the letter after the proposal. I noticed that too and had the same thought. If whatever it is keeps showing up, they might have to include it in the credits. (Karen) Naturally they'd side with blood, not to mention the fact that she's been an ungrateful woman who wouldn't perform the role of dutiful wife, as they both have. ...as they both have. Interesting perspective, that adds dimension to both of them. A couple of things about Soames' family...when OJ was talking to Soames' parents about the house and OJ would not tolerate them bad-mouthing Irene, I thought they gave in too easily...too willing to grant OJ's point about two sides to the story and how Soames after all loved her once. Did not ring true for me. Also, Winnie has been intriguing me. At the opera, she was a social chatter-bug. During the scene with Soames she is nattering about school bills and how Dartie does not have a mind for it or whatever. She comes off a light-weight and sort of giddy, accomodating and willing to let things slide. We've just seen Montie be "bad Montie", here's hoping Winnie gets her dander up and we see her go at him. She is after all, a Forsyte, I bet she finds her teeth. And the last thing...does it seem to anyone else that Irene really seemed to have "no visible means of support"? She left Soames with nothing, she had money enough for food, has just been taking in some music students, yet she has a comfortable appearing home and the means to go to the opera now and then. I suppose maybe good stepmother is gone and some of her father's estate became available for her?

Can't say I was yelling "Bravo" at June's tirade. It's not like Soames forced Phil to sleep with Irene creating a chain of events that result in "poor " Phil's death. Okay, the truth is out--someone actually likes Soames. I can't say I like all that he does, but I feel sorry for the guy. No one forced Irene to marry him. He asked twice--that's not exactly twisting her arm. It was her decision. Speaking of Irene, I see nothing there that would make man after man fall for her. Bland in looks, bland in character, bland in voice. JMO Overall a bland episode. I would be spiced it up, keeping Helene alive and having YJ run off with the new governess, Frau Broom Hilda.

I still don't trust Irene. We weren't shown her transformation, after all, and her source of income doesn't seem like enough to buy those relatively lavish clothes. June definitely went for Soames' blood, but at the wrong place and time, IMO. That bugged me a bit, but she sure hung in there and said what needed saying. (Karen) His mother's assessment--that he loved too much--was a revelation not only to us but to him. Agreed, but then she turned around with the "I should have stopped you back then" (over the kitten) and absolved him of the responsibility for dealing with it! How awfully convenient for him. I love the house now that it's furnished, although it's not Wright-style, and hope we get to see more of it.

drat drat double drat

Finally, some evidence that Irene has a pulse! I have to wonder that if she was as pleasant toward Soames in the early years of their marriage as she was towards Old Jolyon, if they couldn't have had a decent marriage. I guess Old J was "safe"--no sexual component in the relationship, no demands. Poor Irene, born about 80 years too late--no Dr. Ruth, no Dr. Phil, no Oprah, no Sally Jesse, no Montel . . .;-) (Sue)Can't say I was yelling "Bravo" at June's tirade. It's not like Soames forced Phil to sleep with Irene creating a chain of events that result in "poor " Phil's death. Agreed, Sue! And how realistic is it for June to sympathize with the woman who cuckholded her with her fiance? When she said to Soames that she understood why Irene took Phil away from her because "the only alternative she had was you" I was scratching my head. Hello? The alternative is to leave the bad marriage, attempt to become self-supporting and not commit adultery with your best friend's fiance. Whatever happened to personal responsibility??

(Elizabeth) and her source of income doesn't seem like enough to buy those relatively lavish clothes. They were provided by ITV. ;-) (Mari) And how realistic is it for June to sympathize with the woman who cuckholded her with her fiance? I wasn't sympathizing with June, just cheering because she was expressing *my* thoughts. Remember this is fiction, where the good have a happy ending and the bad do not, per Miss Prism. ;-)

(Mari) And how realistic is it for June to sympathize with the woman who cuckholded her with her fiance? Karen) Remember this is fiction,... Indeed, real people seldom act like that. Her little tirade at the cemetery showed abominable manners on June's part and lack of grief for her recently enterred lover.Imagine cheering for her best friend who stole her lover! And blaming Soames for Boisinney's death is stretching it. Irene does wear clothes well..if only her expressions changed as often as ITV changed her costumes. Same ole tiresome looks. She did get 30,000 Pounds out of the old goat though. Young J. and Irene? Why am I not surprised? (Moon saw the look in the carriage....!) I like the house...esp the setting.

(Karen) Did everyone not jump to their feet and shout "Bravo" to June when she went after Soames at the funeral! What a speech! A great speach! I'm so proud of June -- definitely her grandest moment so far. But the best part was coming attractions. Rupert has cut his hair (nicely slicked down) and only has a trim mustache. Yipee!!! Oh, yes!!! Oh yeah and before I forget: Bad Montie. Bad Montie. Cheating on Winnie. :-( I'm disappointed, but not surprised. After all, he did hit on Irene that time at the ball. (Suzee) I thought McKee was wonderful tonight - pitch perfect! (Karen) So did I. My not wanting to see her was based on past episodes and I was tired of seeing the stoic, unsympathetic Irene. I thought she was wonderful. If we'd seen this side of Irene before, I would have understood every male character falling for her. (Moon) I loved the way old Jolyon physically changed last night. His facial expressions from pure happiness to pain. He almost seemed like a different person. CR has done a fantastic job throughout. I enjoyed his scenes with Irene. Perhaps they would have been the perfect couple, in some ways. (Dorine) Did anyone notice that sound just before OJ came down the stairs in the middle of the night thinking Irene was at the piano? It sounded like the same sound/animal cry that was in P&P when Darcy was writing the letter after the proposal. That's a bird's cry -- either a jackdaw, rook or crow. Hard to say which, as they are members of the same family and sound similar. All three are common throughout England.

(Evelyn) Her little tirade at the cemetery showed abominable manners on June's part Gee, no one seemed to think Moira's outburst at the funeral was so bad, except me. ;-) And blaming Soames for Boisinney's death is stretching it. The lawsuit. (Kathy) That's a bird's cry -- either a jackdaw, rook or crow. Any of these harbingers of continuing bad soap operas? ;-)

(Barb S)A couple of things about Soames' family...when OJ was talking to Soames' parents about the house and OJ would not tolerate them bad-mouthing Irene, I thought they gave in too easily...too willing to grant OJ's point about two sides to the story and how Soames after all loved her once... I can see your point but I think it was more likely a business maneuver on the part of James Forsyte (Soames's father). I got the impression that he felt that if he gave into his brother Old Jolyon on the point about Irene; Old Jolyon would have to concede a point to him. Which may be very much in keeping with a solicitor's way of thinking. Both James and his son Soames were both solicitors. The concession was that James would not negotiate on the price of Robin Hill. If Old Jolyon wanted to buy the house and grounds he would pay Soames's asking price or he simply wouldn't get them. Another reason for James's refusal to bargain with Old Jolyon on the price of Robin Hill was that James was still angry with his brother's removing his will from his offices and taking his business to other solicitors. As for June giving Soames "what for" at Bosinney's funeral. I felt really badly for both of them. Although I found June coming off as the more pathetic of the two. She really is clueles as to her own motivations. She is, in many ways, the feminine Soames. Like Soames, June has chosen to love someone completely and utterly wrong for her. She also appears to ignore the fact that she was willing to use her money as leverage in the relationship between her and Bosinney. (When she went to his rooms after he had lost the suit with Soames.) But, perhaps because she is young, she refuses to acknowlege this. It is far easier for her to wring her hands and whine on that if Soames weren't such a self-satisfied, possesive prig who had to have what he had to have, Irene as his wife. He never would've have made Irene unhappy; consequently she never would've met Bosinney. There never would've been a commission for Robin Hill. Bosinney would've built his reputation and income. Then, of course, she would've hav married her beloved Phil and all would've been well. Maybe she should've thanked Soames for saving her from an unhappy marriage. Perhaps she had grown to be thankful to Irene for saving her from one. I'm sorry, I found it so extraordinarily childish to that June would act so indecorously at her beloved's funeral that she would stalk off and stamp her foot and yell at Soames that it was all his fault that Phil is dead. Let me interject that I find Gillian Kearney's playing as June superb. I thought that Soames held his own very will against June, until she told him that Irene practiced contrapception. That really hurt him. And why should't it. He, no doubt, found it incomprehenisible that any woman didn't want a child. He was a man of his times and felt that all women were pretty much equipped with inate maternal instincts. He was also a successful professional man, the scion of a respectable and wealthy family. A family whose name he wants to pass on, he wants heirs. He simply cannot understand any woman finding fault with that. Particularly not a woman whom he loves, in his mind, to distraction. Soames is also clueless. Now for that enigma who is Irene. She is very passive. She is very passive in the book, maybe even more so. To be fair, Galsworthy never does give her a voice and some believe that he intended her to be a metaphor for art. Which is why we only know this character from the perceptions of others. I never saw the first series of The Forsyte Saga but have heard from those who did that Irene was presented as lovely and charming and almost everyone who met her loved her. She was also described by some viewers of the earlier adaptation as having hot passions in a cold exterior. As far as this production goes I think the assessment of the hot passions/cold exterior is a more acurate discription of Soames as played by Damian Lewis. Soames is very passionate, exceptionally so. He is also very repressed. The perfect image of a member of the grand bourgeois in his expensive, perfectly tailored dark suit, high collar and silk top hot. He looks for all the world very cool and composed, the perfect Victorian gentleman. But he is a man of very deep and strong passions. He seems to be a very sexual person, as well, far more sexual than Irene. That seems to be a large part of their incompatibility. Irene isn't moved by "the voluptuous friction of two intestines", as one French cynic once phrased it. What can touch her is the world of art and ideas, certainly not sex or commerce. What draws her to Bosinney is his conversation. They are always talking, exchanging ideas. It is his mind and talent which first attracts her and holds her. Even when they start their sexual affair; I go the impression that after they completed the dirty deed, they then set about discussing the influence of Japanese prints on the work of fashionable or unfashionalbe painters. There didn't seem to be a lot of heat between these two. So unlike those passionate Forsytes (June and Soames). I thought there was real affection between Irene and Old Jolyon, but it was a sexless affair. This isn't to say that Old Jolyon didn't see Irene in a sexual way. I felt he did. By his remark that he wished he'd been born later I got the impression that he felt it unseemly for a man of his age to broach the subject of sex. They did love one another though and did each find some happiness.

(Barb)And the last thing...does it seem to anyone else that Irene really seemed to have "no visible means of support"? She left Soames with nothing, she had money enough for food, has just been taking in some music students, yet she has a comfortable appearing home and the means to go to the opera now and then. I suppose maybe good stepmother is gone and some of her father's estate became available for her? She had the 50 pounds a year from her father's estate plus the music lessons (many more than 3 students in the book). She was living in a 'dump' - very low-rent side of town, in a 'flat' in a building behind other buildings where others in the family would not even want to go. Also, in the book, she had almost no furnishings when we first see her flat - just the bare minimum. Any extra money she could put together, she spent to help the 'women in the park,' although she says she can do little for them - just a meal or a place to sleep, etc. When first they meet again, OJ gives her a check to help care for the women. (They find a woman sitting in the hall outside her flat waiting when they go home one night.) I think Irene's comment last night to OJ saying she was sorry that she was not dressed properly may have been intended to help us understand her situation. (Of course, the TV clothes look great.) Irene may have been able to afford a night or two at the opera and one or two appropriate dresses, but she couldn't travel, live in a nice home, etc. Everything being relative, this is unthinkable to a Forsyte and OJ is very troubled by the way she is living. That's one of the reasons he decides to leave her the bequest - that, and the fact that she has given him some unexpected happiness at his advanced age, reminding him of the beautiful side of life. It is not sexual in fact, but it reminds him of what it was like to be sexual and of how much he loves life, the 'beauty'of life and doesn't want it to end. He wants to hold on to every minute of the life he has left, to appreciate it all. I think he sincerely wishes he were young again, but he knows he is not and that he can only enjoy the relationship with Irene for what it is. At one point in the story, he tells her that he would have been proud to have her as a daughter. This part of the story comes from 'Indian Summer of a Forsyte' - a short story published separately after the first book. It is a remarkable piece, beautifully written. It is written from old Jolyon's perspective as an 85 year old man at the end of his life and perfectly captures that perspective. It is funny at times and unbelievably poignant at others. I would recommend it to anyone who likes to read and IMO, Galsworthy could have been awarded the Pulitzer for this alone. [Also, for another piece alone, but we are not there yet in the series and may not be until next year :-)] The TV show last night did a very good job of capturing much of the essence of the story, although I don't think it is possible to match the written words. I wasn't disappointed, but I am sad that Corin Redgrave is gone. (Maybe they'll bring him back for flashback scenes!)

(Evelyn) Her little tirade at the cemetery showed abominable manners on June's part (Karen)Gee, no one seemed to think Moira's outburst at the funeral was so bad, except me. ;-) LOL..Me, Me... I remember saying Gamma would have been mortified. V. unrealistic...well brought up young women just didn't behave like that. Thank you Barb for your comments on last night's eps. Suzee, I only wish I could get as excited as you are about these worthless people. I feel I'm missing out.

I guess I only think most of the people are completely worthless. LOL!! Some of the people have redeeming qualities and I am enjoying the book(s). I like the way Galsworthy writes, the descriptions of the time period, the UK history and the family history, the scenes of the city, transportation changes,etc. - lots of information that can't be on screen. The characters seem like very real, flawed people to me (don't know too many perfect people). But, (huge "but") so far (and I'm almost finished with 'In Chancery') nothing has made me like Soames, on screen or on the page.

(Suzee) This part of the story comes from 'Indian Summer of a Forsyte' What a lovely name, it's perfect for this part of the story. Thanks for sharing the information from the books. I agree with sentiments that the movie has to stand alone but having the insights from the books helps fill out the experience...thanks!

Great commentary, ladies. I've been enjoying the read. (Saskia) But he is a man of very deep and strong passions. He seems to be a very sexual person, as well, far more sexual than Irene. Could you comment further on Soames being a "very sexual person"? Is there something in the book which has led you to this conclusion. No need to make any comparisons with Irene here. ;-) Soames may love very deeply and be a hopeless romantic, but I haven't seen this at all. With respect to Irene and Bosinney, it would appear they've attemped to play up the sexual aspect of their relationship. The two did constantly speak of art and ideas, but it appeared to me that their physical relationship was not lacking.

(Saskia) But he is a man of very deep and strong passions. He seems to be a very sexual person, as well, far more sexual than Irene. (Karen)Could you comment further on Soames being a "very sexual person"? Yes, please. I don't thimk I agree with this, but maybe you are seeing something I'm not? (Karen) Naturally they'd side with blood... His mother's assessment--that he loved too much--was a revelation not only to us but to him. (Elizabeth) Agreed, but then she turned around with the "I should have stopped you back then" (over the kitten) and absolved him of the responsibility for dealing with it! How awfully convenient for him It may have been a revelation to you but not to Soames. Not in a million years. I doubt he even heard it LOL I agree that the family would take Soames side. But it is so d*** frustrating! June seemed to reach him a bit with her tirade (even if the funeral was not the proper time and place) and then sister and mother turn around and reinforce his own opinion that he is always in the right. "Poor Soames" doesn't need any help feeling that he is the wronged party. In his mind he did everything exactly right with Irene, even the rape. And that darn cat shouldn't have been so easy to smother, either. Thank God Irene got awayt with her life ;-) I was 400 plus pages into the book before I had a twinge of sympathy for him. Then it took just about 10 more pages to regret ever feeling that way. LOL I think Soames may be the most completely self-centered, narcissistic character I have ever seen on page or screen. Certainly I can't think of many who are more so, (Dorine) She can't catch a break either. Did he sign the codicil to the will so she'll get the money he left her? (Barb)This thought startled me, had not thought of that, but surely so? If OJ didn't sign it, do you think that Young Jolyon and/or June would be likely to give it to her anyway?

(Karen) But the best part was coming attractions. Rupert has cut his hair (nicely slicked down) and only has a trim mustache. Yipee!!! (Dorine)LOL! I perked up on that, too. (Moon) I liked him as the "artiste" too. ;-D Ruperet does look like he will be taking control (as a Forsyte does), soon. Can't wait I loved in the preview when YJ warned Soames about how he treats Irene: "She's not alone this time." Yes!!!! ( I liked his 'artiste' period, too.) ((Moon) Might this have come about because her family never backed him in his original plans for business. The Forsytes have not treated him very well in that respect. I think it's possible. They treated him like a possession, a "thing" - he wasn't allowed a life or business. So all he had to do outside of sitting at home was to hang around with George, play cards and pool and bet on horses. (Karen)Will it be revealed how Soames knew Irene and OJ were keeping company? Did he hired a private detective to find her? No detective when OJ and Irene were together (at least not in the book). But Soames was such a sneak and he did lots of checking up, following and spying. Every time anyone told him anything about Irene, he already knew it, although he would not admit it. I'm afraid if I say more, I'll give something away.

(Karen)Could you comment further on Soames being a "very sexual person"? (Suzee)Yes, please. I don't think I agree with this, but maybe you are seeing something I'm not? I'm sorry for being so unclear on this in my last post, despite its excessive verbosity. I went on and on and really wasn't very clear as to what I wanted to say. In my previous posts I had commented on the novels and their relationship in relation to the current television production. So it would seem that I was doing the same in my last post. What I failed to clarify was that I was referring specifically to the TV adaptation now running as it can be judged as a discreet production separate from Galsworthy. That explanation is still pretty darned obscure. Quite simply, to me, in this particular production Soames comes off as sexy in some twisted way. Or more precisely Damian Lewis makes him seem sexy. I just thought that it was funny that people to whom I've spoken who've seen the old BBC series felt that the character of Irene came off as being someone with "hot passions in a cold exterior". To me that descriptions more apt of Soames in the current Granada adaptation. So that particular statemen was made in reference to the television series and not Galsworthy. (Karen)With respect to Irene and Bosinney, it would appear they've attemped to play up the sexual aspect of their relationship. The two did constantly speak of art and ideas, but it appeared to me that their physical relationship was not lacking. I do agree with you, Karen, so far as that really did seem to be the intent of producers of the series. The real problem for me was Ioan Gruffudd. Could he and Gina McKee possibly have had less chemistry with each other? Irene had more chemistry and sexual tension with Soames! Granted she started out not particularly interested, which became dislike and grew to absolutely loathe him. But at least it went somewhere, there was something palpable between them. Despite the efforts to suggest rapturous sex between Irene and Phil, I could never quite believe it. I still think that they spend most of their time in bed discussing current trends in the arts. I'm sorry, my feeling toward Ioan Gruffudd was that he felt the only requisite to playing Bosinney was looking very pretty. What a dud. I was at a loss to what either June or Irene saw in Phil, aside from his obvious good looks. I really do like Gina McKee as Irene and personally find her performance terrific. But Gruffudd just came across as woefully miscast. He was god awful. He appeared to be cast for no other reason than being very pretty. I wanted to applaud when Bossiney went under the wheels of that carriage. I didn't have to be exposed to his sub-standard acting anymore. Bosinney is supposed to be a true artist and architectural genius. I never got any hint of that talent from Gruffudd's lame portrayal. Bosinney is called the Buccaneer by the Forsytes. That left my scratching my head because I never got a hint of anything remotely like a buccaneer from Gruffudd. At least not until Bosinney, enraged by Soames's assault on Irene, works himself into a rousing rage, goes looking for Soames and if he eve got hold of him, would probably have attempted to kill him. I believed Ioan Gruffudd then, but maybe he was accessing Horatio Hornblower. That was a bad observation. Hornblower was a naval officer not a buccaneer. Please let me apologize to the Ioan Gruffudd fans out there. I am speaking only for myself. It's okay if you think that I have bad taste or no taste at best, or that I'm completely crazy and perfectly wrong at worst. Just one more thing. I loved Ioan Gruffudd as Horatio Hornblower and as Pip in Great Expectations.

Help! Hope that the tags are closed.

This is a link to a site which has screen captures from the older BBC production of The Forsyte Saga. Episode 8 was titled "Indian Summer of a Forsyte". http://www.ceejbot.com/EricPorter/Forsyte/episode08.php

(Saskia)Quite simply, to me, in this particular production Soames comes off as sexy in some twisted way. Or more precisely Damian Lewis makes him seem sexy. He certainly plays Soames in a sympathetic manner. BTW I'm glad we are discussing the film adaptation separate from the book.

No need to apologize for your lengthy comments or your views, Saskia. I'm thrilled that you and others are providing such interesting details from the book and from the series. (Saskia) Quite simply, to me, in this particular production Soames comes off as sexy in some twisted way. Or more precisely Damian Lewis makes him seem sexy. Ah! So that's it. Glad you said "twisted" though. ;-) Personally, I don't see it but I suspect this has to do with personal preferences. Don't get me wrong, I think DL is a excellent actor, but no sexiness is coming through. Perhaps, it's just that he is not my type (in BOB, Ron Livingstone and his character were more to my liking). When I try to imagine the sexuality beneath the Soames skin, all I can see is that early scene at Bournemouth, where he clumsily tries to kiss Irene's arm. That didn't look like a sexual being to me. However, to be logical, if he is repressed, then there must be something he is repressing. It just doesn't look like passion to me. But Gruffudd just came across as woefully miscast. He was god awful. He appeared to be cast for no other reason than being very pretty. I wanted to applaud when Bossiney went under the wheels of that carriage. I didn't have to be exposed to his sub-standard acting anymore. LOL! Don't hold back, Saskia. Tell us how you really feel about IG. Pssst! He doesn't do anything for me either, and I don't think him particularly handsome (something to do with his mouth) but as he's gotten older, what I viewed as a baby face is melting away. As to IG's performance, I didn't think it was so bad. While they needed to have a "hunk" in that role, the issue of chemistry I fear all hinges on our attitudes toward Gina McKee and her Irene, i.e., do we believe it when men are falling all over themselves for her? That is the crux of the chemistry issue. When we first saw Bosinney giving Irene that mooney look at the church, what should we be questioning? Was IG's gaze bad or unbelievable because we didn't think Irene was such a catch? (Evelyn) He certainly plays Soames in a sympathetic manner. Depending of course on whether you share his views and attitudes. ;-)

I don't think Soames should be judged by modern sensibilites.

(Saskia)but maybe he was accessing Horatio Hornblower LOL, Saskia - he was accessing his "inner HH" :-) Re Soames and his sexuality: now I understand what you are saying even though I don't see anything sexy or sexual (or sympathetic) about Lewis as Soames (repressed or otherwise). To tell the truth, I think I have a similar problem with Lewis as you have with Gruffudd and others have with McKee. I keep wondering if another actor had played Soames, might I have enjoyed the Soames' scenes. I have enjoyed actors playing cads in the past, but this time it's not working for me. (Karen)the issue of chemistry I fear all hinges on our attitudes toward Gina McKee and her Irene, i.e., do we believe it when men are falling all over themselves for her? That is the crux of the chemistry issue. When we first saw Bosinney giving Irene that mooney look at the church, what should we be questioning? Was IG's gaze bad or unbelievable because we didn't think Irene was such a catch? Ah! Beauty (or chemistry) is in the eye of the beholder! What better examples than all of our different attitudes expressed here about the various actors/characters? :-)

(Suzee) I have enjoyed actors playing cads in the past, but this time it's not working for me. Do you consider Soames to be a cad? That's a better description (now) of Monty. Soames seems to be an upstanding prig, and DL is playing *that* very well. ;-)

(Karen) However, to be logical, if he is repressed, then there must be something he is repressing. It just doesn't look like passion to me. I think what Soames is repressing is rage - rage at the whole world and everything in it. He is furious because he wants to control every single little thing. He cannot and that is impossible for him to accept. Do you consider Soames to be a cad? What I consider Soames to be is much much worse than either a cad or an upstanding prig and I'm not sure it can be printed here. LOL However, what I was trying to say is no matter how despicable a character may be, I can often appreciate the actor's performance, enjoy watching it, etc. I do not feel that way about DL as Soames.

I bet Masterpiece Theatre has lost half their audience with this one. I wouldn't be hanging in 'cept for this discussion. Wish Irene would have gone under with Bosinney, but then we wouldn't have Fleur...and I want to see about her. LOL. Reminds me of the recent "Anna Karenina"...If she hadn't jumped, I was ready to push her under that train.

(Suzee) I think what Soames is repressing is rage - rage at the whole world and everything in it. Oh well said. From the tightness of his face to his stiffness as he moves, that's what I see. And I've been wondering if I was missing something, DL does less than nothing for me but this is the first thing I've seen him in, maybe I need to expand my experience. I just find Soames totally repulsive, someone said reptilian earlier, I agree.

(Suzee) I think what Soames is repressing is rage - rage at the whole world and everything in it. (Barb S) Oh well said. From the tightness of his face to his stiffness as he moves, that's what I see. Interesting and it certainly is a point of view which can work. But I don't see Soames repressing rage. What I find him to be repressing is fear. His very need to be desperately in control over everything at all times seems to be a a fear reaction. He is a afraid of life, afraid of the monstrous emotions inside of him, afraid his facade of stiff-upper lipped composure will slip, afraid that others (at least the "people who matter") will see him for what he really is. Which leads to the question of who and what is Soames, really? I find that Soames is very passionate in the sense that he is a person of immensely strong, although repressed emotions. His attempting to break down the bedroom door when Irene had locked him out gives some indication of the depth of his emotions, at least to me. Soames is also someone who chooses to live a life which has been largely defined by duty. He became a solicitor like his father. He carries on the family tradition of being a man of business, of a man of commerce, of being a man of property. It is what he was born into and he has accepted it not only as his birthright but as what is expected of him. Has it ever occurred to him to question any of this? Soames's attitude toward duty forms the basis for much of his being unable to fathom Irene. He simply cannot understand someone who doesn't feel obligated to be dutiful. Soames, in his estimation, has fulfilled his part of the business of being married. He was a good provider and gave Irene every comfort which he could afford to give her. She wanted for nothing. Irene repaid him by refusing to bear his children and even by refusing his conjugal rights. By law, he had the right to expect sex from her. Clearly, to him, she wasn't a person who respected duty. I can understand people thinking that Soames was a horrid husband. However, in his defense what we, and Galsworthy, perceive as his being possessive and controlling, Soames would see as being attentive and protective. Remember, being a man of his times, Soames may well have seen women, in general, as being only slightly more self-sufficient than children. I don't really see Soames as a cad, or a monster who is the author of everybody's unhappiness. I can see the upstanding prig; but I can also see that perhaps there was a damaged, unhappy and frightened man behind that.

(in BOB, Ron Livingstone and his character were more to my liking) I haven't seen a lot of him, but at the urging of my son I recently watched Office Space and enjoyed RL and the movie. (The opening sequence is hilarious, especially if you have ever commuted to work by auto!) (Evelyn)LOL. Reminds me of the recent "Anna Karenina"...If she hadn't jumped, I was ready to push her under that train That would have been two of us, shouting 'heave-ho! LOL Thank goodness for Levin - that was the only part of the story I enjoyed. (And I love the book and story.)

(Suzee) I haven't seen a lot of him [RL] You have no idea how much I'm looking forward to the next season of Sex and the City! The last episode was a melter IMO.

So ,what gives here. Didn't anybody see Eps # 5 last night? I can see an intriguing plot progressing... Will Young J. and Irenee hook up? Long lingering shots of their holding hands.... Winifred and Darite..."I told you so.." What a rat.At first I thought he had pawned the pearls to pay for his gambling debts. But no...to injure her further he stole the pearls to give them to the spanish tart. The cousins Imogen and Val are sweet on each other.... Will Soames try to force Irenee to come back to him, and if she doesn't he can sue for divorce and marry Annette. How old is Soames? Was the party for his 40th or 50th? Lastly...don't these people age???Only the children seem to get older.

I was surpirsed I and J ddidn't hook up last night. But maybe that's the cliff hanger of the 6th episode. I am assuming we will get only 6 now. right? And what is wrong with June? Why does she want to be an old-maid? "Losing a husband is not as bad as losing a butler" what a great line! I lol! (Evelyn), How old is Soames? Was the party for his 40th or 50th? I would think 40th. But that's a good question. Soames and his art collection, his passion. Something left from his years with Irenee. At least he can possees it, unlike her. What was Annette's comment when he asked her about art? I didn't hear it well. But it can tell us something about their future. Did anybody get to see next week's coming attractions? They didn't show it in my area.

(Evelyn) So ,what gives here. Didn't anybody see Eps # 5 last night? LOL Evelyn, yeah, I saw it, I guess it just didn't make quite the impression the other ones did. Seems this must have been a building episode, setting us up for the kids. With the exception of Montie self-destructing and black-hearted Soames being a loving and supportive brother *snort*, not much really seems to have gone on. And anticipating the Soames Anti-Defamation League, perhaps Freddie deserved some of what she got, but could his sneered "We know what's best" (or whatever the line was) have been any more vicious? That man gives me chills. I'm not so sure about Irene and YJ, wasn't the hand holding thing right after OJ died and they were discussing the will? Then 12 years pass. And my goodness, this thing takes some huge chronological leaps. Makes my head spin. But of course they will have to have a thing, if for no other reason than to make true what June said about every man in her life loving Irene more than her. (I gasped when I heard that.) I liked the scene with June and YJ after the funeral...the drinks, the smoke. What I did not like was the scene when they got home and presumably were just hearing about OJ's death. I thought they showed about as much emotion as they would have upon coming home and hearing the bathrooms had been repainted. And Broom Hilda the governess (who coined that for her?) has presumably departed on her broom. I'm thinking she did not care much for Irene. And the family gathering for the funeral, I'll probably rewatch it just for that part. Those are some vicious people...the aunts are a hoot. Regarding them all aging, I think they're doing a better job of aging the men than the women. Even Soames' mother looks well-preserved, so did the aunts for that matter. I saw no change in Irene and maybe a few lines had been added to June, mainly they are just dressing her in a more sophisticated manner. But I thought Soames and Jolyon were showing their age fairly well. And is it Imogen and Val (aren't they brother and sister?) or is it Val and Holly? And if it IS Holly, they need to do something with her hair. And they really ought to come up with something for Holly's brother Jolly, I thought I had missed something, he did not seem to be at Robin Hill before OJ died but he did not come back with YJ and June but then didn't we see him go off to Oxford and honk June off by taking a painting with him? He must have been away at school or something. So, my "few" notes above indicate it must have made some impression, I guess if it's a building episode, it did it's job. Either that or I am excessively cranky today and too annoyed at all of them.

LOL Evelyn! "Can a girl from a little mining town in the west find happiness as the wife of a wealthy and titled Englishman?..." Oops, wrong show! ;-) I'm almost through - off to finish the tape.

(Barb) Regarding them all aging, I think they're doing a better job of aging the men than the women. I don't know about that. Except for getting rid of the facial hair, YJ looks remarkably well-preserved. June looks more like his sister than his daughter. IMO, nobody is aging very much at all in this, with the exception of the children. And if it IS Holly, they need to do something with her hair. It was horrible, especially in the horseback-riding scene! I wanted to grab that errant hank of hair and stick it back in the snood, or whatever that was! It looked like some sort of animal had died on her head. (Evelyn) What a rat.At first I thought he had pawned the pearls to pay for his gambling debts. But no...to injure her further he stole the pearls to give them to the spanish tart. I thought exactly the same thing (that he pawned them). That would have been bad enough, but I was appalled when he told her what he'd really done with them, and so sorry for Freddie. (Moon) "Losing a husband is not as bad as losing a butler" what a great line! Probably the best of the whole series!

Timeline: Birthdates: 1847 Young Jolyon 1855 Soames 1858 Winifred 1863 Irene 1869 June 1879 Jolly 1881 Holly 1880 Val 1882 Imogen 1883 Irene and Soames marry 1886 Bosinney appears 1887 Bosinney dies Irene goes back to Soames' house 'A Man of Property' ends 1892 'Indian Summer of a Forste' Old Jolyon dies, Irene has been alone for years 1899 'In Chancery' begins Monty leaves, Soames sends Young Jo to ask for a divorce So how does the 12 year on-screen jump in the series fit in? (After Old Jo dies to the birthday party.) Did PBS do that and confuse the time? The series makers? Didn't Soames say it had been 12 years - long enough? Monty didn't say those awful chicken neck things to Freddy in the book LOL But then neither did he give his 'hear hear' during YJ's funeral speech. Loved that moment! I like the way Rupert Graves uses his entire body when acting - lot of natural movements, sitting, standing, hands, etc.

(Moon)What was Annette's comment when he asked her about art? Basically she deferred to Soames in his estimation of the paintings. She said something to the effect that she didn't really have any set views and asked what were his thoughts about his collection. (Moon) "Losing a husband is not as bad as losing a butler" what a great line! (KathyF)Probably the best of the whole series! I love Aunt Juley and Aunt Hester; they are so delightfully dotty. I think that they should have their own show. I'm only suggesting that because it was suggested here that George and Monty should have their own show. But that was last week and now all and sundry know that Monty is, or has become, a perfect rotter. (Barb S)And anticipating the Soames Anti-Defamation League... Hi there! After reading my last post I did come off as though I were running for the presidency of that particular organization. Okay, Soames was a rat in the last episode, but he was taking out his bitterness and frustration at the failure of his own marriage on his sister Winifred. Soames has a history of hurting the ones he loves. That's a shame, really, because Freddie has doted on her elder brother Soames. A word for Winifred here, she is a loving person who needs the patience of Job. When Monty tosses the comment about Val at her, that she raised him to be the perfect Forsyte, a priggish little snob; do you think he might have been referring, as well, to the model for this? Her adored brother and Val's beloved uncle, Mr. Soames Forsyte. It would seem that Soames has settled into a bitter middle age. I read some commentary where Soames had been described has having the cliche stick up his, well you get the idea. May I suggest that by the time he reached his mid-forties the proverbial stick had given him splinters. Still being Soames, he maintains his stiff upper lip and has more starch in his personality than in his collar. Soames is repressed, he's passionate, he's dutiful, he's annoying as all get out. (Suzee)So how does the 12 year on-screen jump in the series fit in? Actually the 12 year jump was the time elapsed between Irene's leaving Soames (1887) and the birthday party (1899). Old Jolyon and Irene shared the tender interlude of the "Indian Summer of a Forsyte" (1892) 5 years after Bosinney's death (1887). It was really confusing following all that in the episode. I think that the series might have given us a bit more background from the novels and not have jumped around so much. Thanks for posting the timeline.

(Saskia)Actually the 12 year jump was the time elapsed between Irene's leaving Soames (1887) and the birthday party (1899) I understood where the 12 year jump was supposed to be, but it didn't seem the series makers or PBS did. They flashed "12 years later" on screen after the scene where YJ told Irene about OJ's will (1992) and just as the scene at the birthday party was starting (1999). (Barb)I saw no change in Irene and maybe a few lines had been added to June, mainly they are just dressing her in a more sophisticated manner. But I thought Soames and Jolyon were showing their age fairly well. (Kathy) YJ looks remarkably well-preserved. June looks more like his sister than his daughter I read somewhere earlier a complaint that YJ and June looked more like brother and sister than father and daughter. But he *was* very young when she was born. (Barb)black-hearted Soames being a loving and supportive brother *snort*..., And anticipating the Soames Anti-Defamation League, perhaps Freddie deserved some of what she got, but could his sneered "We know what's best" (or whatever the line was) have been any more vicious? That man gives me chills In the book Soames went to see Winifred to look for sympathy for his own situation with Irene. When he found out about her problem with Dartie and realized that she wanted sympathy from him, he lost it because it wasn't going to be all about him! Did anyone notice the scene when YJ visits Soames in his office? After YJ leaves, Soames breaks the pencil? The man is full of rage - I rest my case LOL

(suzee) They flashed "12 years later" on screen Very briefly, and anyone who missed that was probably very confused. June's approach now comes clear; she'll nurture her resentment against Irene in private, but go to great lengths not to show it to the wider family. Has no one ever showed her how to behave at a funeral? The family gathered around Old Jolyon's grave was a standout scene for me. I just wanted to rub Monty's face into the carpet in the casino. Soames' repressed anger is so white-hot now that those coals up his arse must be well on the way to turning into diamonds.

I like Soames new country house mobetta than Robbin Hill. Cozy;-) Think we should warn Annette about joining this dysfunctional family?

(Barb S)And anticipating the Soames Anti-Defamation League... (Saski) Hi there! After reading my last post I did come off as though I were running for the presidency of that particular organization. LOL Saskia, that particular comment was not meant to anyone in particular. Soames just seems to be someone, who at least early on, inspired different feelings, perhaps based on individual perception. Commentary on him has been all over the place. To tell the truth, I was convincing myself as much as anyone else, every time I convince myself he is either all saint or all sinner, he wavers the other way. The man is giving me a whiplash! Suzee, thanks for the timeline. It will come in handy and already helps to flesh some stuff out though I need to go back and check, I was thinking June was significantly older when Jolyon left. (Elizabeth) Soames' repressed anger is so white-hot now that those coals up his arse must be well on the way to turning into diamonds. And I think from the look on his face a couple of times, a couple of them might be working their way out (my apologies if that comment is just too gross!)

(Evelyn) Lastly...don't these people age???Only the children seem to get older. Thank God you agree Evelyn. I was beginning to think I was the only one critical of this fact. We're talking what 15-20 years here and no one except the children are older. Absolutely amazing. I really hope Irene and YJ do not hook up. What surprises me is in all these years June has never married. She's quite a catch financially. And now living with Dad since Gran's passing. Soames wants children, and we know Irene will never give him any, so hopefully they can divorce and he can marry sweet Annette. I have a gut feeling Annette knows the ropes and will be able to handle Soames. Just my opinion of course.

Old article: Pressbox UK Added : (Fri Apr 12 2002) Forsyte Saga Star Offered Film Role Amanda Ooms, one of the stars of the new ITV Forsyte Saga, has suddenly found she is in demand for all her talents from film to photography. The Swedish star now based in Brighton and last seen on British TV as a female warewolf, has been offered the lead in a multi-million Hollywood/UK/Swedish film project, has a script she has just completed being looked at for financing, has found buyers for her latest paintings and just seen thousands of people visit an exhition of photographs where she featured. Amanda told us, � Obviously I thought a major TV role in the Forsyte Saga would be the most exciting thing to happen but suddenly people seem interested in all the things I do. I love acting first, but have 2 published novels and now the script, have had exhibitions of my paintings, have had a few photographs taken which people have thought worth showing and my film career seems to be expanding.� Neither Amanda or her Agent will reveal the detail of the film other than to say it involves a secret international scandal involving Russia and a European country and which Governments have tried to �keep hidden�. Apart from Amanda, a USA lead actor is being cast with shooting scheduled for September/October this year. UK Film Services are currently looking at her script and spokesman Robert Sidaway said today, � Obviously Amanda is a leading actor in Scandinavia having won aclaim and awards for her parts but we did not realise she could write scripts with such depth. We will be involved in the funding of around 15 films in the coming months and believe one of them could be Amanda�s.� The tens of thousands of people who visited the White Chapel Gallery in London over the last few weeks may well have a feeling of dejavu when they watch the Forsyte family and that is because one of the principle subjects of the exhibiton by Nan Golding was Amanda. This is the third major photographer who has chosen the multi talented Miss Ooms as their subject. Meanwhile viewers can see Amanda on Sunday in the rerun of episode one of the Forsyte Saga and then episode 2.

Excerpt from a very old interview (1996) with Nyree Dawn Porter: Title: A TOUCH OF CLASS , By: Eramo, Steven, British Heritage, 01952633, Jun/Jul96, Vol. 17, Issue 4 A TOUCH OF CLASS ...Producer Donald Wilson cast Porter in two major television series, Madame Bovary and Judith Paris. The strength of her work in both programmes led Wilson to offer her the role of Irene in The Forsyte Saga. 'Donald Wilson asked me to come to the BBC and meet with David Giles, who is, I think, an extraordinarily gifted director. During this meeting I was told that they had it in mind to offer me the role of Irene. Apparently, MGM Studios, which used to hold the copyright to The Forsyte Saga with the BBC, had seen a clip of some of my work and decided I was okay.' Based on John Galsworthy's series of novels, The Forsyte Saga follows the lives of an upwardly mobile family of the late Victorian era. It stars Kenneth More as Jolyon Forsyte, who longs to abandon his bourgeois lifestyle to become an artist. His cousin Soames, played by Eric Porter, is a cold, somewhat harsh lawyer, tolerating an unconsummated marriage to Irene. 'Irene was one of the most difficult but rewarding roles I've ever had to play,' recalls Porter. 'She's a gentle soul but passively strong and very, very much a survivor, the sort of person that some people find quite threatening. 'I had great difficulty with the character at first. I'm quite jolly and optimistic by nature and I also like to chat, all the things that are not Irene, but I did find the secret to her. It's in the novel, actually, and is revealed by the other characters in the way that they talk about her. What comes across the strongest is the character's repression. She's actually a slave to society, constantly struggling to become a free spirit. Throughout its 26 episodes, The Forsyte Saga gave television viewers their share of heartstopping moments... Although both these characters were at odds on the small screen, the relationship between the actors portraying them was far less tumultuous. 'People often made the mistake of assuming that Eric Porter and I were married, or at least brother and sister, but, in fact, we were no relation at all. The first filming we did for the programme was on location down in Brighton. I walked up to the front desk of the hotel we were staying at and asked for the key to my room. As I stood there, Eric Porter walked up to the desk as well. The clerk looked at both of us and said, "Ah, yes, Mr. Porter, here are the keys for you and your wife." 'We hadn't even been introduced,' laughs the actress. 'Eric with his wonderful dry sense of humour turned to me and said, "Well, I guess that does away with, 'How do you do?' and breaking the ice. They already have us in the same room." He was an extraordinary man with whom to work.' The Forsyte Saga was the last major series filmed in black and white and is also the most successful programme in BBC history. Forsytemania took hold all round the world. The series helped the BBC make a breakthrough in selling programmes to America. and it was the first drama series from the West to be bought by the former Soviet Union. In Britain, pubs emptied on Sunday nights when the series aired. The programme caused students to delay a rally in Prague; restaurateurs in Malta started opening later; and in New Zealand a cricket match began early so that the players could finish in time to watch the series. At first Porter and her fellow cast members didn't realize the impact the series had on its viewers. 'To me it was just another job, albeit a very difficult one,' the actress recalls. 'But, I kept getting feedback from people who obviously knew better than I, including, Kenneth More who said, "You do realize our lives will never be the same again, don't you?" The programme took off straightaway. 'I feel very privileged to have been a part of one of the original big television blockbusters and the first series to get BBC2 out of the red and into the black in terms of finances,' she concludes. After finishing work on The Forsyte Saga, the actress went on to other television work in series such as The Gamblers, Never a Cross Word, and The Liars.

"But, I kept getting feedback from people who obviously knew better than I, including, Kenneth More who said, "You do realize our lives will never be the same again, don't you?" Thank you, Suzee. I know FS was a popular series in the UK, but I don't think Forsytemania hit the US. Not as poplular as "Upstairs, Downstairs" I doubt the series catapulted them to stardom ... I never heard of Nyree Dawn Porter or Kenneth More til now.

(Evelyn) know FS was a popular series in the UK, but I don't think Forsytemania hit the US. It may not have brought on Forsytemania, but it led directly to the creation of Masterpiece Theatre.

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 10/6/02 'Forsyte' actress brings 'fantasy figure' to life By STEVE MURRAY Atlanta Journal-Constitution TV Critic She appears at times like a statue, her marble-pale skin caressed by the watery gray sky. At other times, she could be mistaken for a John Singer Sargent portrait: an exquisite work of art. The fact that she is not, that she's an individual with a will of her own, is at the heart of "The Forsyte Saga," the eight-hour "Masterpiece Theatre" miniseries starting tonight. The "she" in question is Irene Heron (Gina McKee), whose marriage to 19th-century London materialist Soames Forsyte (Damian Lewis) and its impact on his extended family is central to Nobel Prize-winning novelist John Galsworthy's intimate epic. It was published in three volumes between 1906 and 1921; the new miniseries covers the first two books. "I do think the idea of possession and possessions is key to the drama," McKee says by telephone from England. "I think that it's a hideous thing for Irene to be thought of in those terms. She really does believe that if you truly love somebody, you should have the generosity of spirit to let that person be." That's the condition Irene (pronounced "eye-REE-nee") sets for Soames, who courts her with the same acquisitive spirit he brings to buying a landscape painting. She agrees to marry him only if he promises that, if they find themselves emotionally unsuited to each other, he will give her her freedom. That Soames does not honor, or even understand, this vow begins a series of repercussions for Forsyte family members, who are forced to weigh which is more important in life: passion fulfilled or a full purse. That Soames does not honor, or even understand, this vow begins a series of repercussions for Forsyte family members, who are forced to weigh which is more important in life: passion fulfilled or a full purse. McKee points out that Irene was raised to be a lady, but as a young woman had neither income of her own nor practical experience or training: "She is basically in a social no man's land and takes the option of marrying Soames because she is young and naive and thinks perhaps you do earn love, rather than find it." This isn't the first time this drama has played out. A 26-hour BBC adaptation aired in the United States in 1969 and was such a surprise hit that it led producers at WGBH Boston to create "Masterpiece Theatre" as a venue for British drama. The new version, airing as part of that series, is a co-production of WGBH and Britain's Granada Television. The miniseries was broadcast in the United Kingdom last spring. "People talk about it constantly even now, and the press really supported it," McKee says. As a result, she has limited time for interviews these days, because the final book of the series is currently being shot. As for the original '60s version, she has never seen it. She wanted to wait until after she had played the role herself. The actress, 38, has worked in both costume and contemporary films (she was Hugh Grant's friend in the wheelchair in "Notting Hill" and Clive Owen's lover in "Croupier"). But she found playing Irene to be a unique challenge, and not just because she had to wear a corset. "It's an interesting role, because Galsworthy speaks of her only through the eyes of others," McKee says. "It's never in the first person. He has descriptions of her, but it's always the other characters who are putting the spin on who they think she is. In some ways, she becomes a fantasy figure in the books. That's a wonderful challenge." Plus, there were those pesky corsets. "It changes so many fundamental elements about your movement, your breathing, your digestion," she says. "It's uncomfortable and inconvenient and restricting, but at the same time you do find a way to use it." The worst kind of dress she had to wear for the miniseries? She says it's the ones with underwire cages with wires that poke and bruise the legs: "It's like having a small classroom of children banging into you." http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/living/tv/1002/06mckee.html And, Mr. Murray's review: The thematic tension between love and lucre in "The Forsyte Saga" is established in the opening minutes, set in London in 1886, when Young Jolyon Forsyte (Rupert Graves) falls in love with his daughter's governess and leaves his family to be with her. His decision remains a scandal for the wealthy Forsyte clan nine years later, when his cousin Soames (Damian Lewis), the family's reigning scion, woos Irene Heron (Gina McKee), who marries him because she has few other options A union that starts out on the wrong foot grows worse every year. Soames' failure to see Irene as a person makes her withdraw. The more she does, the more he wants her -- but as something to possess, not to love. With her cool, intelligent stillness, McKee maintains interest even during Irene's most enigmatic moments. As Soames, Lewis ("Band of Brothers") is more than her match in his own brand of willfulness. Even at the character's most bullheaded, he wins our sympathy as Soames makes the same mistakes again and again. The actors are standouts in a strong cast that brings snap to John Galsworthy's smart soap opera. Yes, at first glance "The Forsyte Saga" may look like a musty old yawn. It has its yards of silks and crinolines and sumptuously appointed Victorian interiors. Luckily, it also has bite, social commentary and sex. Over the decades, "Masterpiece Theatre" may have earned a reputation for Anglophilic fustiness, sometimes for good reason. But this miniseries is a reminder that old-fashioned costumes don't mean the drama has to be any less contemporary or resonant than the newest network show. http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/living/tv/1002/06forsyte.html

Clive Owen's lover in "Croupier" That's interesting, I didn't notice it was her and had already seen her in Notting Hill. Will have to watch it again. I also didn't realize that a MT program didn't show everywhere on the same week. I know they are on different times and days in various markets. Thanks, Suzee.

Thanks Suzee for the interesting articles. Didn't know that was her in Notting Hill or Croupier. Will watch again.

I didn't realize McKee was that old (38). She holds up pretty well. Has done 30 films! Mostly TV.

What a self-centered bastard Soames is. He dumped the one he supposedly loved as soon as he realized she couldn't give him the new possession he wanted, didn't he? Dang, he's nothing if not tenacious, but the prostitutes defending her was quite a scene. Again, Damian Lewis is acting his hindquarters off. And I still don't like Irene. Nice to see June thawing just a bit towards her, if only in private; it'll serve her better in the end. I loved the humor that finally got ahold of Monty and Winifred.

Just quick impressions (argh.. missed the first 10 minutes again...I need something to do): Loved the gown Freddie wore the night Val made his announcement. And while he was waiting in the park, it occured to me it's a shame men don't wear hats anymore. Hmmm, two boys go off to war. Don't think both will return. Not to be cold, but while I don't think both will buy it I can't decide whether it will be Jolly who does not return and breaks his father's heart or Val who will break Holly's. Freddie was spectacular when she threw the crystal..."One rule for me, another for you." Soames' reaction was priceless. He just does not get it. Esoteric keeper lines for general usage on the boards (FUP's, if we had them here): Winifred, compose yourself. You need a lie down. Kick me, I'm down. And the final thing...in Paris, did YJ get to do what OJ only wished he could do?

Soames doesn't get it at all, he's a master of self flagellation. I don't think YJ got any.

YJ did not get any yet. (Eliz), Damian Lewis is acting his hindquarters off. I agree! (Barb), I can't decide whether it will be Jolly who does not return and breaks his father's heart or Val who will break Holly's. It's better for the plot if they both come back. Who klnows they might become good friends at war. And BTW, we need Napolean. ;-) On the right side of course. By the previews it looks as if Soammes might be Fleur's father.

(Barb) Esoteric keeper lines... Winifred, compose yourself. You need a lie down. Kick me, I'm down. Weren't those a hoot! I immediately decided to stop taking naps and start taking lie downs. I also liked "Monty's back." I was checking the aging factor last night. Freddie seems to be aging a little (they added some gray). Monty looks as if he's had a face lift or perhaps a peel. Soames looks perhaps a little paler. Other than that, everybody looked pretty much the same to me (as they did in the beginning).

(Eliz), Damian Lewis is acting his hindquarters off. (Moon)I agree! Agree. But it's getting so one dimensional. I thought the episode belonged to Freddie. As for Irene...I can't see why men would be attracted to her. On my screen she's no beauty ..nor does she have charm , personality or a figure!!No sex-pot for sure. She's a dead fish, IMO (Moon) By the previews it looks as if Soammes might be Fleur's father. I guess....anyway look like she's coming baaaack. Dartie lends a little humor to the story. Glad he's back from Argentina. And who cares about the next generation? (Same with The Sopranos!)

(Evelyn) As for Irene...I can't see why men would be attracted to her. On my screen she's no beauty ..nor does she have charm , personality or a figure!!No sex-pot for sure. She's a dead fish, IMO I probably said it before, but Irene reminds me so much of Margaret Hamilton (Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz). Not that Irene is green, but when she had on the black hat and the top of it was cut off by the frame of the picture, the brim looked a lot like MH's witch hat. Also, there's something about her jawline. Eerie resemblance, IMO.

(KathyF) Irene reminds me so much of Margaret Hamilton (Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz). YES!!! I thought the exact same thing last night while I was watching it! The profile is so similar... As for the aging comments, I was flicking around the channels last night after Forsytes and came to BBCAmerica, and was watching "Coupling" for a little bit. I think that the actor who plays Patrick on that show and the one who plays Monty are one in the same...I'm not sure, as I can never remember names. But it just stuck me as I was watching the sitcom. So, if they are the same person, there has got to be about 2 inches of pancake on his face for Forsytes... Monty's cheek bones look as if they are about to burst through his skin! at least they did last night.

(Kathy) I probably said it before, but Irene reminds me so much of Margaret Hamilton (Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz). Not that Irene is green, but when she had on the black hat and the top of it was cut off by the frame of the picture, the brim looked a lot like MH's witch hat. Also, there's something about her jawline. Eerie resemblance, IMO. Great Observation. I knew she reminded me of someone, but just couldn't place her. Now I know who it is.

(BarbS) And the final thing...in Paris, did YJ get to do what OJ only wished he could do? No, YJ did not. Anymore would be getting into spoiler terrritory. (BarbS) I can't decide whether it will be Jolly who does not return and breaks his father's heart or Val who will break Holly's. (Moon) It's better for the plot if they both come back. Who knows they might become good friends at war. I read the books so I know, but I'm not going to spread any spoilers about. Yet if you think about it Holly would be very hurt if either one of them were to be killed. She does love Val and would be devastated to loose him. She also loves her brother, Jolly, very much, and would be heartbroken both for herself and her father if he were to die. (ElizabethS) Damian Lewis is acting his hindquarters off. (Moon)I agree! Yes, he's doing a great job. Thankfully you're speaking metaphorically. It would be such a shame for him to loose those hindquarters since they are such nice hindquarters. Sorry, I couldn't resist. (KathyF) Irene reminds me so much of Margaret Hamilton (Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz). "I'll get you, my pretty, and your little dog, too." Okay, I've posted it before and I'll post it again. Speaking only for myself, I like Gina McKee as Irene. I think that she's doing a really good job. I do admit that have never really liked the character of Irene. But I'm happy with the job G.McKee is doing. Did anybody besides me think that the ensemble that Irene was wearing in Paris was really ugly. The one with the blue and white striped skirt, red jacket type thing over a white blouse, with what looked to be some sort of royal blue dyed feather scarf-type thing hanging around her neck. I mean what was up with that?

with what looked to be some sort of royal blue dyed feather scarf-type thing hanging around her neck. I mean what was up with that? LOL! Welcome to the Fashion Patrol, Saskia! :-) It would be such a shame for him to loose those hindquarters since they are such nice hindquarters. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Oh, but he would not longer be retentive. He must act on all fronts and backs. ;-)

I've caught up with my FS episodes (thank goodness for those toothpicks propping open my eyelids) before the next airs and read all the comments. Was LOL at many of the observations. Is there a website for the Soames Anti-Defamation League? If not, there should be. ;-) And the Gina McK-Margaret Hamilton connection! Too funny. Could someone make Gina's face green, so we could a better evaluation? "I'm mellllllllllllting" With the exception of the children (different actors being used when they were mere tykes) and YJ and Freddie, I haven't seen much in the way of aging. It really is driving me crazy that Soames and Irene look the same. And what about Soames' mother and father? Exactly the same as when the series started. Come on! Whatshisname (Matthew?? Forsyte) should be positively decrepit by now and the aunts? Them too. Haven't aged a day. To me, that is a major flaw and shows poor production values. We get no true sense of time passed, except for them flashing "12 years later" on the screen and ask us to believe it. (Saskia) Did anybody besides me think that the ensemble that Irene was wearing in Paris was really ugly. Sign me up for this club. Hideous, but perhaps was all the rage in Paree. ;-) At the risk of antagonizing the SADL, he's is driving me nuts. Good grief! I cannot have a shred of sympathy for such a character who still thinks he can get Irene back to bear him a child. BTW, Soames' passing of those diamonds is an apt description. ;-) Having not read the book, Fleur seems like it might be Soames-Annette's child, given that the name is French, but that is merely conjecture on my part. Mama had pound signs in her eyes, and one wonders what Annette saw in him too. After having watched YJ and Irene in Paris, I can see far more of her appeal to men. Soames was in love with her at first sight, which is attraction of a physical nature. Therefore, she represented beauty for that era. But you can see how her personality lights up when she was with OJ and YJ. You need a lie down. Always been a fav of mine. CF says something very similar to Gram in MLSF, when she's had too much of the sherry trifle.

I haven't watched tonight's show yet, but catching up on last week: (Eliz), Damian Lewis is acting his hindquarters off. (Moon)I agree! (Evelyn)Agree. But it's getting so one dimensional. I think he's *over-acting* his whatever off.... any minute I expect him to twirl his mustache and say 'dastardly' -- off with him completely as far as I'm concerned. (Barb) did YJ get to do what OJ only wished he could do? (Terry) I don't think YJ got any (Moon) YJ did not get any yet YJ didn't get any, darn it. I wanted more of those two in Paris almost as much as he did! Nice chemistry even if we only saw a few minutes. But, I think there's a very good chance that Montie got a little 'welcome home' gift!! After the "Montie's back" scene and before the son came home. Montie and Freddy seemed very relaxed in the second scene.:-) And will someone please find another leading role in a good movie for Amanda Root? She's wonderful. (I loved it when she said she was going to "keep" Montie.)

BTW, that *is* Ben Miles in 'Coupling' - too bad they're not keeping him for the US version: BBC Wednesday, 19 June, 2002, 13:09 GMT 14:09 UK British sitcom set to follow Friends Coupling follows the lives and loves of six friends BBC sitcom Coupling has been bought by US television network NBC as a possible replacement for Friends. The team behind Coupling said NBC saw the show "as Friends with sex" and were enthusiastic about its potential to replace the top-rated US comedy, which is coming to an end after nine seasons. Hartswood Films, which makes the British show, said the mother, daughter and son-in-law trio behind it will also be responsible for the US version and will not water-down its risqu� story lines. It follows the lives of six thirty-something friends "making their way across the minefield of love and relationships" and was criticised after its launch for imitating Friends too closely. It is thought the US version of Coupling will be filmed in Los Angeles using American actors. Friends is due to end after its ninth series A Hartswood Films spokeswoman told BBC News Online a pilot episode will be completed in October, with a decision on whether to go ahead with a full series to follow soon afterwards. Ben Silverman, the producer overseeing the project for NBC, said: "We think Coupling would be a perfect show for the fans of Friends. "It's kind of a next-generation sitcom. It is really honest and edgy." British writer Steven Moffat based the show on his relationship with his wife, Coupling producer Sue Vertue, and their friends. Together with Sue's mother, executive producer Beryl Vertue, they were invited to the US to make a pilot programme after NBC entertainment president Jeff Zucker fell for the British version. Beryl Vertue was also part of the team behind Men Behaving Badly, which was a huge hit for the BBC in the mid-1990s after being axed by ITV in 1992. But a US re-make of the series fared less well and was cancelled after two years. Coupling stars Jack Davenport, Sarah Alexander, Richard Coyle, Kate Isitt, Ben Miles and Gina Bellman. The storylines which won it fans include a look at what happens to missing socks. Another focused on how one partner could hide porn films from the other. To prove a successor equal to Friends, Coupling will have to do extremely well. At its peak Friends attracted 24 million viewers an episode in the US, making multi-millionaires of its creators and stars.

It's me, from the Damian is perfect club.;-) He broke my heart last night, practically making love to that red dress. Thanks to Gill for this interview: From the Sunday Times: Interview: The charmer Smooth, confident and raring to reinvent himself, Damian Lewis is just the chap to play Jeffrey Archer, says Lesley White This is the actor Damian Lewis describing Jeffrey Archer, whom he plays in the forthcoming BBC comedy, Jeffrey Archer � The Truth: "He is a charming innocent, constantly hard done by, an ordinary man trying to do his best in a difficult world..." Correction: that was Lewis echoing the disgraced peer�s view of himself, and rather confirming the actor�s real opinion of his subject. "It wouldn�t surprise me if he were a little ill," says Lewis. "You know, mentally unhinged." When we meet on the Pinewood set of the slapstick satire, written by Guy Jenkin, creator of Drop the Dead Donkey, Lewis�s flaming red hair is dyed brown, the make-up department has achieved a not totally streak-free job with the fake tan, and, with his funky shorts, he is transformed not into Jeffrey, but a cross between an Ibiza raver and a boy scout. As Greta Scacchi is playing Margaret Thatcher, we can assume no attempt at impersonation is being made. In some ways, Lewis, 31, and the celebrated fantasist have more in common than it might first appear. While the latter has spent his adult life embellishing his biography for public consumption, the actor went through a period of reverse self-invention. Rather than admit having attended Eton, for example, he told early interviewers that he went to boarding school, then changed the subject before they could ask which one. "I tried to sever all ties to my posh upbringing. It made me feel as if I couldn�t be a genuine moody actor. I�m desensitised to that now." In real life, Lewis is the sort of echt young toff that Archer so admires: rich insurance-broker father, St John�s Wood childhood, mother on the development boards of the Almeida and Royal Court theatres, the whiff of Brideshead about him, in a modern sort of way. And then there is Eton, where he acted in a production of Nicholas Nickleby with Archer�s younger son, James, the former Flaming Ferrari. Lewis played Wackford Squeers, James an incorrigible young scoundrel he took great delight in thrashing. After the show, Archer p�re, with that typical mix of grandeur and encouragement, congratulated Lewis on the certainty of a great career, asking to be sent front-row tickets for his West End opening night. "It was a sweet thing to say to a 16-year-old, but he gave the impression I was being summoned by royalty, and even at that age, I wasn�t at all sure he warranted that." After Eton, he enrolled at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, and subjected himself to real discipline for the first time in a charmed life. "I was whipped into shape by a few people I thought I knew more about life than, but didn�t. When I left, I was sure I was going to be a sensation, get all the major roles and transform British theatre." By the time he landed his first significant television role � in Warriors, Peter Kosminsky�s story of young British soldiers in Bosnia � that had changed, and he feared he would never be any good in front of a camera. Full of energy and ego, he wanted only to be onstage, wrestling with the great texts in front of 2,000 people. "The camera was intrusive. I was always darting around it, looking for my audience, just wishing it wasn�t there. Now..." He stops and smiles. "You�re gonna ask if I love the camera. Come off it! Oh, all right then, yeah, I do. I love it." Lewis can�t help fizzing with confidence. He is the sort of boy who could charm grannies, dogs and leading ladies, who could walk into any party, onto any set, and make it his own: funny, smart, irreverent and with manners so beautiful you could frame them. Tea with the Queen, one gets the impression, would pose no problem, while his mockney mode would rival Guy Ritchie�s. When his savoir-faire accidentally fails him, he looks almost comically stricken. "I think you�re quite edu-cated, at least well- informed," he opines, in the manner of a kindly, condescending great-uncle, when I comment on his theatre work. "Quite? How very kind of you," I reply, and he looks momentarily mortified. "I, um, mean that in the American sense, where �You were quite good� means �You were wonderful�." Hmmm. When it counts, however, he knows how to play the meetings, winning over Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks for his breakthrough role in Band of Brothers, against the cautions of all those who thought him too untested and the wrong nationality. Playing the quietly indomitable Major Richard D Winters in the �80m second world war epic, with perfect pitch and a creditable American accent, was the high point of his career. He has been watching the recent reruns on late-night TV, even calling his friend and fellow cast member Rick Warden to congratulate them both on good work. "We were in something brilliant. I�m not one of these neurotic actors who watches everything, thinking how shit I was." The accent was no doubt helped by childhood holidays and cousins in America, but mostly by his regular ritual before the bathroom mirror as a 10-year-old, pretending he was being interviewed on Wogan. "He�d ask me about being a famous actor, and I�d always answer in an American accent." After that triumph, the Hollywood on dit on Lewis was buzzing. Rumours started flying that he had turned down an offer to talk about playing James Bond, laughingly refuted: "I don�t think so, do you? �The name�s Bond, Ginger Bond.�" Does he fret about looking good in case such a chance arises? He snorts: "I worry that the creases around my mouth will get so deep that eventually I won�t have a mouth at all." He hung out by LA pools, flicking through scripts, for a while, but became so dis- appointed by the "big project, bad part" syndrome that he came home to make The Forsyte Saga, the second series of which he is currently filming. Lewis�s expansive, expressive personality is part of the reason he loves playing the opposite in the austere Soames. "It�s all beneath the surface with him, and repressed emotion in acting is more interesting. It�s far more moving to see someone trying not to cry than sobbing." The down-to-earth quality of a solid period piece also appeals to him. For all the glitz of his Golden Globe nomination, in England, where he intends to remain, he insists he was just a bloke inside a helmet who played an American well. The Forsyte Saga, by contrast, is coming home: quintessentially English upper-class, a milieu he understands all too well. "I grew up in it, albeit 100 years later. I understand the formality, the structure, the codes of behaviour, the bearing, how one holds oneself in a room, even down to wearing a stiff collar and bow tie, which I spent five years doing as school uniform." His mother has always longed for him to star in a sumptuous Merchant Ivory production. "�Darling,� she�d say, �why can�t you wear lovely suits and be at Oxford in the 1920s?� Ironically, people like Rupert Graves grumble about how they�re cast as posh boys and they�re not posh at all, but I spent a long time finding other facets of my character." Indeed, until he reprieved the villainous Soames, he had done little to draw on his decorous background � quite the opposite � and in the future, one can�t see him specialising in drawing-room bounders and debs� delights. There is a restless, reckless quality to Lewis, the sort of daring that no doubt has him riding his motorbike too fast, and has inspired comparisons to Steve McQueen. When he raves that The New York Times devoted a whole page to the thrilling stage fight in his Broadway Hamlet with Ralph Fiennes, you sense he�d like to do it all again � right now! � the urgency of the boxer to get back in the ring. For now, though, there is a major motion picture to await. Thanks to Band of Brothers, he won the lead, alongside Morgan Freeman, in Lawrence Kasdan�s adaptation of Stephen King�s Dreamcatcher. The veteran director traditionally hires the first person he sees for a role, and Lewis happened to be at the front of the queue for his part. "So I could have been the tea boy." He plays one of a group of friends whose weekend trip to a hunting lodge mutates into an alien horror movie. "There�s a guy in the bathtub with his backside blown away, and this alien shit-weasel has exploded out from him and is coming towards us... and at the same time we are trying to sustain the integrity of a character-driven piece!" As there is such a premium on young actors having "weight", which Lewis has proved without breaking a sweat, the comedy of the Archer drama was a relief � especially for one who finds even Soames funny in his crippling gaucheness. On the Archer set, he was laughing out loud, until he realised that if he allo ed himself to find it side-splitting, the audience probably wouldn�t, and stopped. Humour is not a quality much shared by his subject, of course, a man utterly devoid of irony. "He may well think this is an honest appraisal of his character," giggles the actor. "There is a danger he will be deeply flattered. I�m gonna send him a video in prison anyway."

Last night episode was the best so far. Soames's seething was disgusting. High praise to Annette when she disobeyed him at the restaurant. I like her. He seems like he will dote on Fleur. Brava Karen for having guessed right. Sorry to see JY died. But it was needed to underline the birth of John. I am guessing that in the next part John and Fleur will be a couple? ;-)

(Mari), It's me, from the Damian is perfect club.;-) He broke my heart last night, practically making love to that red dress. What a great scene! I'm with you Mari. Thanks for that interesting article.

Thanks for the interview with Damian Lewis; glad Speilberg has picked him up. BoB was a fabulous series. (Mari)He broke my heart last night, practically making love to that red dress That was his episode last night. Displayed very emotion in the book.From wrath at the restaurant , to sadness at his father's death,eroticism with her clothes. Agree about the red dress, but it was seeing him literally melting when he picked up Fleur that got me. Well, Irene Herron is the winner....finally living in the lap of luxury at Robben Hill (built by her former lover),with her newest Forsyte husband and son. Oh, I forgot...step- mother to her former lover's financee. Have to agree with Moon..looks like thrid generation will feature Fleur and John. These families have to get out more and meet new people!!

(Mari) He broke my heart last night, practically making love to that red dress. Oh my! *shaking head* Did we have different reactions to that scene. I fully expected him to get off on that dress from the way he was stroking it. Lots of good chuckles last night from Monty-George and Aunt banter. Wish I could remember them (and did not tape), but I'm sure someone else will have done so. I especially liked the looks exchanged between Monty and George, when Annette meets the family and tells them about the restaurant in SoHo. My vindictive self did enjoy the scene when Soames and Annette walk into the restaurant to see YJ and the very pregnant Irene. Touche!! Much as I want to be able to say "Poor Soames" because he didn't get his son and now Annette cannot have anymore children, I cannot. Until he picked up Fleur and carried her around, that look on his face as he glanced down on the babe for the first time was positively scary. *shuddering* OK, now Monty has aged and James did finally look older in this episode before he died. June is a complete enigma to me

LOL at Dartie who yearns to be back doing the tango in Argentina.

June is a complete enigma to me She was beaming last night. Never looked better. Could she end up an old maid? Surely not!

(Karen) I fully expected him to get off on that dress from the way he was stroking it. LOL! My thoughts exactly! Thought it was a tad pervy. (Karen) Until he picked up Fleur and carried her around, that look on his face as he glanced down on the babe for the first time was positively scary. *shuddering* (Evelyn) but it was seeing him literally melting when he picked up Fleur that got me. Very interesting change of heart, I'd say! Looks as if he really fell for Fleur in a big way. Thought DL was magnificent last night! I still don't like his looks, but what a tour de force! (Karen) Lots of good chuckles last night from Monty-George and Aunt banter. Wish I could remember them Plenty of funny lines to go along with the drama, including, "it seems like only a month or two ago that they were married." "It was only a month ago!" (Evelyn) These families have to get out more and meet new people!! Really!! London's such a big city -- must they only socialize with their family? It's getting rather icky. ;-) Good episode!

(Karen) Much as I want to be able to say "Poor Soames" because he didn't get his son and now Annette cannot have anymore children, I cannot. Until he picked up Fleur and carried her around, that look on his face as he glanced down on the babe for the first time was positively scary. *shuddering* I agree. I can't feel sympathy for someone so contemptable. He got what he deserved. Which is a testimony to DL's fine portrayal. I hated him. Job well done. (MoonD)(Karen) June is a complete enigma to me She was beaming last night. Never looked better. Could she end up an old maid? Surely not! I always wondered about June. Surely she's an excellent catch and much to savvy to give up on men. I wonder what will happen to her.

(Mari) It's me, from the Damian is perfect club.;-) He broke my heart last night, practically making love to that red dress. Don't have time at the moment to read any other posts but this one from Mari, but this is the one scene I wanted to comment on all day. Even though this is MT/PBS, I thought that's where he was headed. And that really weirded me out. And the bizarre sobbing that he obviously tries to control as he's doing it. That man is quite ill.

Damian Lewis describing Jeffrey Archer, whom he plays.. Now this I have GOT to see, let's hope it makes it across the pond. The red dress skeeved me too; he slipped right into letting his obsession out of its box...that was truly creepy. What got me about the end was the way his smile started as an evil grimace and cracked into softness as he opened up. I presume the next episodes are completed and will be aired sometime in 2003?

I am guessing that in the next part John and Fleur will be a couple? ;-) Wouldn't you love to be at their wedding reception? "The groom's mother will now dance with the bride's father." ;-)

Anyone have episode 5 (next to last on tape), please email me (terry@spring.net). I have all the episodes except this one taped.

(Mari) Wouldn't you love to be at their wedding reception? "The groom's mother will now dance with the bride's father." ;-) I certainly would. LOL. Sorry Terry, wish I could help. Missed that one myself.

Review of the Forsythe Saga DVD http://www.the-trades.com/column.php?columnid=1484 Widescreen anamorphic format Closed captions. Three discs, two episodes each, eight chapters per episode. Making-of �The Forsyte Saga� featurette Behind-the-scenes gallery Biography of John Galsworthy Cast biographies Presented as the premier and only original series for the 2002 season of "Masterpiece Theatre,� �The Forsyte Saga� will be completed in one more Sunday. However, we can already find out how the drama plays out on DVD. The box set for �The Forsyte Saga� includes six discs, offering two episodes a piece, sectioned into eight chapters per episode. A balanced and lovely presentation, Acorn Media Publishing has put together a gift set just in time for the holidays. Produced by Granada Television, �The Forsyte Saga� is based "The Man of Property" (1906) and "Chancery" (1920), the first two novels of John Galsworthy�s trilogy known as "The Forsyte Saga." The events of the third novel �To Let� (1921) will be explored in the second installment of episodes, which is in production now. That series will play in the United Kingdom and then eventually, make its way to �Masterpiece Theatre." A season I imagine many will look forward to. Although the original 1967 BBC version -- a 26-episode major event that launched �Masterpeice Theatre� into must-see TV -- remains in the hearts of many, I believe this version will likely win new fans and will certainly not offend anyone who favors the original. The story revolves around Somaes Forsyte (Lewis), a man of property, who has always gotten what he�s wanted in life and who never accepts no for an answer. If anything, rejection makes him all the more ardent in pursuit, which is exactly what Irene Heron (McKee) finds out after they first meet in Bournemouth. He is instantly drawn to her beauty and after only one meeting, proposes to her. But while he has made up his mind that they are a match, she is not as convinced. She declines his proposal. His reaction: �You are charming beyond words.� She finally marries him for practical reasons. This being Victorian England, Irene has no real alternative to marriage. She was not born to work for a living. Her stepmother forces her to decide and on a fateful day, she goes to Soames and tells him of her decision, agreeing to marry him on one condition: that he let her go if their marriage is not a success. Soames agrees and in truth would have agreed to anything, believing in his heart that their marriage could be nothing but successful. This of course does not turn out to be so, and it is their relationship that ends up affecting the entire Forsyte clan. �Of all people, it�s Soames who should carry on the family name.� Their marriage was seen as the start of a new era and the enormous pressure on Soames to produce a son is ever-present. But after two years of marriage, there are no children and Soames and Irene are unhappy. While one is still in love, still enchanted, the other is in utter depression. Yet they remain together. Eventually, her dislike grows to hate and nothing could make her see him any differently -- save letting her go. At the same time, she exercises a power over him. For years, even in separation, he is obsessed with her and wastes much of his life waiting for her to love him back. She disarms him and time and again we see Soames unable to deal with that reality. Despite his faults, he inspires our sympathies. The Forsyte family is full of characters, from gossips and snobs to artists and liberals. The family grows as the story progresses, with grandchildren being born and growing up. The Boer War and Queen Victoria�s passing serve as backdrops, as points in time that add to the drama of the Forsyte family's saga. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Much of the success of the series is thanks to the wonderful acting of its star Damian Lewis (so good in "Band of Brothers"). Being of the privileged class, Soames believes money can buy anything -- even love and forgiveness. A painting, a necklace, a house. Lewis lets us see Soames�s side in his relationship with Irene and while we do feel sorry for her, we can sympathize with both. At times he seems lost, and it is when Soames is onscreen that the series moves at its swiftest pace. We can see his mind working, turning. We can feel his sadness with every rejection. From the way Lewis raised or lowered an eyebrow to the way he smoked a cigarette, he breathed life into the starched-shirt of Soames and made him much more than a repressed, controlling force hopelessly in love. At the end of the series, Soames has a wonderful, defining moment: a true smile, a true expression of bliss that he had never betrayed before. As Irene, Gina McKee had to go from cold and seemingly selfish to warm and comforting. With Soames, her character is a different person than when she is with others, such as Old Jolyon and later Young Jolyon. With them, she smiles and expresses a warmth of character that is lacking with Soames -- which is the point. But although we are told that Soames suffocated her, it seemed that oftentimes he was just trying to reach her. "You never laugh or smile with me like that." Producer Sita Williams noted that the Irene character was the most difficult to write because although she was to appear aloof and distant, they did not want to take her totally away form the audience. McKee's character grows more likeable as the series progresses once Irene and Soames are separated and living away from one another -- though stilll connnected. Special mention must be given to Corin Redgrave and Rupert Graves, who play Old and Young Jolyon Forsyte respectively. Their side of the family is outcast from Soames�s, but they never suffer. They are held together by love and understanding and refuse to follow conventions simply because. Their strength is also seen in Young Jolyon's first daughter June, played by Gillian Kearney. Amanda Root plays Soames�s loving sister, Winifred, who sadly marries a bounder. All of these actors, plus a few others, support the quality of this rich meloadrama. The only complaint I have as far as acting is in regards to the third generation of Forsytes, save June. The actors here take some getting used to and become a part of the story rather abruptly. Twelve years pass and the next thing we know, Jolly, Holly, Val, and Imogen are all grown up and having their own problems. But there's not enough time given to them for us to have any real connection. I cared more about their impact on their parents rather than their own dramas. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the presentation of the series, it is presented in anamorphic widescreen format and the first thing I noticed was the color. Much brighter than the presentation on �Masterpiece Theatre,� the film version is crisper and colors stand out a bit more � although much of the costuming and sets are dark by design. Little things are noticed, such as dresses that I thought were black but are in fact dark green or dark burgundy. Damian Lewis�s hair is even a brighter red in the DVD version. The contrasts of light and dark are more pronounced. Also, a few scenes are edited differently, just a few seconds here and there cut from the PBS presentation. Presented as it was in the UK, the discs are divided into six episodes rather than the eight one-hour episodes we have seen in the United States. The episodes end in natural cliffhangers, rather than on a scene that might not be as spot on, but necessary for time's sake. There is also a 20-minute making-of featurette with Damian Lewis and Gina McKee talking about their characters, as well as about the appeal of a story like �The Forsyte Saga.� Fittingly, they are the only two actors who speak in the featurette. Also offering comments are producer Sita Williams, make-up designer Sue Milton, and set designer Stephen Fineren. We also get a behind-the-scenes photo gallery of 12 stills, a 13-page biography and book list for John Galsworthy, and brief cast biographies for the principal actors, including Lewis, McKee, Gruffudd, Graves, Redgrave, Kearney, and Root. Although this version, with only six (or eight) episodes cannot compare to the scope of the original series, it is a new retelling definitely worth watching. It has an energy to it and only slows down once in a while to catch its breath, regroup, and start again. As Damian Lewis points, the series takes its time and develops a buildup to revelations and twists. This buildup is what keeps the story fresh and with lovely costumes, well-done settings, and great actnig, The Forsyte Saga 2002 should not be missed. Especially considering that the second batch of episodes will be coming out way soon enough. Overall rating: B+ for the series, A- for the DVD.

From the way Lewis raised or lowered an eyebrow to the way he smoked a cigarette, he breathed life into the starched-shirt of Soames and made him much more than a repressed, controlling force hopelessly in love. At the end of the series, Soames has a wonderful, defining moment: a true smile, a true expression of bliss that he had never betrayed before. But you had to get past the expression right before that. It *was* truly scary. As Irene, Gina McKee had to go from cold and seemingly selfish to warm and comforting. With Soames, her character is a different person than when she is with others, such as Old Jolyon and later Young Jolyon. With them, she smiles and expresses a warmth of character that is lacking with Soames -- which is the point. Isn't this exactly what I've been saying? :) Thanks, Suzee!

"At the end of the series, Soames has a wonderful, defining moment: a true smile, a true expression of bliss that he had never betrayed before." Agree with the above. Also with Karen: But you had to get past the expression right before that. It *was* truly scary He exhibited a gamut of emotions in a few minutes solely with facial expression...never uttering a word til the end. Then the smile: "We'll name her Fleur" "Cut"! "Bam!" "At times he seems lost, and it is when Soames is onscreen that the series moves at its swiftest pace." Agree. Other times, ho-hum. He definitely 'drove the bus'. I'd love to see the interviews and outakes, but I'm not going to spring to buy it for that. Thanks Sue. Great find.

This is an interview with Damian Lewis from the PBS website for The Forsyte Saga. It is interesting to read what he has to say about the character Soames Forsyte, Irene's relationship to him, the rape scene and the Forsytes in general. An interview with Damian Lewis Whether they realized it or not, viewers of the popular Steven Spielberg/Tom Hanks miniseries Band of Brothers were watching an English actor in the starring role of Major Richard Winters, the taciturn American hero of an airborne unit during World War II. The real Major Winters is salt of the earth from Pennsylvania. The actor Damian Lewis is from London's Abbey Road and attended Eton. Otherwise, you'd never know the difference. While on hiatus between the production of series one and two of The Forsyte Saga, Lewis played Jonesy, a possessed college professor in the forthcoming film of Stephen King's Dreamcatcher. Lewis recently talked by phone from London about the Forsyte remake, Soames's inner life, and what it's like to play an alien. Have you read all of Galsworthy's Forsyte novels? Yes, absolutely. I also bought a couple of books on Victorian mores and social customs. And I have some quite useful printouts from the Internet about the roles of wives and husbands in Victorian England. So I've got a wealth of information to go on. Did you watch the 1960s BBC adaptation as part of your research for the role of Soames? No, though I have seen little clips of it. That was a seminal piece of work, and a whole generation loved it. But I find that television dates very quickly. The language of the camera has moved on since then, audiences have become more sophisticated. We would find it very sedentary compared to what we expect now. Our cast is a lot younger than theirs, and I think the relationships are scripted in a slightly different way, more ambiguous perhaps. I'll see it someday, but I don't feel the need to go to it for guidance. Who is Soames Forsyte? He's fastidious, smug, and conceited. But he's also a person capable of love, though unfortunately unable to express it in a satisfactory way, especially to a young woman. He understands life in terms of contracts, property, and duty. And if any of those things is threatened, he falls apart. He can be cruel and small-minded, but that's often generated by this repressed passion that he's unable to express fully, or successfully, or healthily. I went to English boarding schools and grew up around people very much like Soames and in a milieu very much like the Forsytes's, even down to wearing tails, and stiff collars, and cravats. So I feel quite at home in the environment in which The Forsyte Saga takes place. But I'm a more ebullient person than Soames is. How do you perform such a conflicted, complicated character? You're hitting at a central point about acting, which is that for all the research you do, acting is finally an instinctive craft. My responses are not governed by some piece of information I have, but by what Gina McKee or Ioan Gruffudd or Rupert Graves is saying to me on the set. The scripts helped, and also the conversations I had with Sita [Williams], the producer, and Chris [Menaul] the director. We didn't want a simple villain in Soames. I think it's more challenging for the audience if they're presented with a character they hate but also feel sympathy for, who presents them with moral questions and has them thinking, God, I feel so sorry for Soames, but he just raped his wife! That's far more interesting. That rape scene is very famous. It's famous because in 1967 it was so novel to see something that explicit on TV. Now we're used to images like that, and the question in everyone's mind becomes, how graphic will it be? Our rape scene isn't at all graphic. It's suggestive, but still terribly shocking within the context of the drama. It should be shocking -- psychologically and emotionally shocking. Is it very difficult to do a scene like that? Yes, it's horrible to do. And it was all the more horrible because we happened to be filming it on September 11th. Gina and I were doing this harrowing scene as news was filtering in about what was happening in New York. It was a very weird, very upsetting day. We were just acting, and meanwhile this real thing was going on. Do you think Irene is a little hard on Soames? The best way to look at it is that Irene has married under duress. Her stepmother has said 'we are poor, we need to make this marriage, he's a good man, and he loves you.' But she can never love him. They don't share any of the same passions. Perhaps there's an element of self-loathing in her repugnance of him. She has agreed to do this thing that she really doesn't want to do. And it's for her convenience, really. In the beginning, there's no reason for her to hate him. He hasn't done anything bad, wrong, ugly, or cruel. He just represents something that she knows she can never love. There are hints that the Forsytes have an inferiority complex about their origins as farmers. Is this an important element in what makes them tick? Yes. They're only two or three generations into the money. They're not an old family with standing, and they certainly don't want to be reminded of that. Old Jolyon Forsyte, played by Corin Redgrave, is a bit of a maverick, more of a fully rounded, loving person than the other Forsytes, and he likes to stir up the family on this score. At the dinner party in the opening episode he alludes to their humble origins. The pride and snobbery of the Forsytes is such that no one wants to be reminded of that. They want to feel they've always belonged to the upper class. It's that very English thing of "clubability," that obsession with belonging to the right places. What do you think audiences find appealing about The Forsyte Saga? Part of its appeal is that every very single character is hypocritical, which makes them all incredibly real. But first and foremost, it's a great story. It's a ripping yarn, as we'd say. It's melodramatic, it's glamorous, it's got people falling in and out of love. It has everything an audience wants: lust, betrayal, deceit, joy, ecstasy. So it appeals on many levels. In Band of Brothers you starred as Major Winters, the consummate laconic American. How did you get that part? [Steven] Spielberg and [Tom] Hanks were clear that they wanted to use some English actors, but I don't think anyone expected to find Major Winters in London. I just got lucky. I had four screen tests over here. They thought, this guy has all the qualities we're looking for, and his American accent is okay. So they flew me out to L.A. to meet Steven and Tom. We had a chat, and they offered me the role. It was all very exciting, a little Hollywood sort of story. Both Winters and Soames are very interior guys. I guess I'm just good at playing repressed individuals. I'm lucky because those are often the roles that catch people's eyes. It's the Steve McQueen element, all that bubbling energy bottled up inside. It's a very compelling quality on the screen. I've been lucky that I seem to be able to pull it off. Of course, the two roles are polar opposites. Winters was a lion-hearted hero, a leader of men. Soames is anything but. Soames is a pathetic man in many ways. You just finished filming Stephen King's Dreamcatcher... I play a soft-spoken college professor, a really sweet guy. He's one of four friends who have known each other since childhood. He gets hit by a car and ends up with telepathic powers. You cut to six months later; they're all in a cabin in the woods on a hunting weekend. Then aliens land, and the movie takes a different direction. I get possessed by an alien, and I walk around killing people. You play an American again? I play an American, although I adopt a different voice for the alien. Spot the difference. I'll leave that up to you. Is there a particular direction you'd like to go with your career? I'm not very good at strategizing. All you can do is attach yourself to the good work. If you think you don't want to play another psychopath, but the script is amazing, and the director is fantastic, and the story is incredible, then you may end up playing your third psychopath in a row. You have to go where the good writing is. That's the only way you can be stimulated, fulfilled and in the end, good -- probably. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/forsyte/ei_lewis.html

(Saskia) DL Interview: My responses are not governed by some piece of information I have, but by what Gina McKee ...is saying to me.... A most arduous task with this actor IMO. Well done DL. Thank you for great articles Suzee and Saskia.

(Damien Lewis)They thought, this guy has all the qualities we're looking for...I guess I'm just good at playing repressed individuals. I'm lucky because those are often the roles that catch people's eyes. It's the Steve McQueen element, all that bubbling energy bottled up inside. It's a very compelling quality on the screen. I've been lucky that I seem to be able to pull it off Not exactly a modest fellow, is he? (Re GM & DL)Fittingly, they are the only two actors who speak in the featurette Why is that fitting? I would love to hear from some of the other actors. At the end of the series, Soames has a wonderful, defining moment: a true smile, a true expression of bliss that he had never betrayed before But only because he's thinking that this is *his* (his alone, his property,etc.) - he can control it and no one can take it away from him.. (Emphasis on the "it." Hopefully he will not kill "it" as he did the kitten LOL) "At times he seems lost, and it is when Soames is onscreen that the series moves at its swiftest pace." (Evenly)Agree. Other times, ho-hum. He definitely 'drove the bus' Not for me. I could have happily hit fast-forward when Soames was the only focus - especially after the first night. My "bus drivers" ;-) were McKee, Redgrave, Graves - and also Miles and Root when they were around. (Evelyn) I'd love to see the interviews and outakes, but I'm not going to spring to buy it for that My son bought the DVD yesterday but I haven't looked at any of it yet. Also, a few scenes are edited differently, just a few seconds here and there cut from the PBS presentation This is interesting because on another site, someone did a scene-by-scene comparison naming several very brief scenes that were in the PBS version and *not* on the DVD. I can't remember exactly which ones and I'm not sure I would know even if I watched the entire show again on DVD. I'm interested in another look at the costumes though after the comment about the colors. (Thanks for the article, Sue)

(Suzee) Hopefully he will not kill "it" as he did the kitten LOL You haven't been reading ahead have you, Suzee? ;-)

(Karen)You haven't been reading ahead have you, Suzee? ROTFLOL! (I had to read that twice!)

OK I went and saw Ioan Gruffudd today in Sydney at a book signing. I'll post what happened on his topic...151

"At times he seems lost, and it is when Soames is onscreen that the series moves at its swiftest pace." (Evelyn) Agree. Other times, ho-hum. He definitely 'drove the bus' I couldn't possibly agree more with you Evelyn. It really was Damian Lewis's show. But I don't think that it was all because of, as Suzee might phrase it, the arrogant Mr. Lewis, himself. Don't get me wrong, I did find DL phenomenally good in the role of Soames. I also found him really sexy which oddly enough worked for the "slim, dandified Soames". Well it did for me. I am speaking only for myself here. If anybody thinks that I have bad taste or no taste that's okay. But I liked him, so there. Please don't be upset with me Suzee. I do respect your opinions and have enjoyed your posts. If you found DL to be rather arrogant I can understand that. I have read of him being described as "very confident". Maybe it his attending Eton which is the cause. (Suzee) But only because he's thinking that this is *his* (his alone, his property,etc.) - he can control it and no one can take it away from him. From what I remember of the books it is Fleur who is very much in control of her relationship with her doting father. Soames thinks that Fleur is a spoilt cow yet is aware that he is largely responsible for that. Here's another article about Damian Lewis and his playing Soames. Soames role gives Damian bad rep' By Jonathan Donald Heart-throb Damian Lewis's tortured role in The Forsyte Saga has forced him to abandon being a good samaritan. Lewis, 31, who plays Soames in the costume drama, was stunned by the response when he tried to rescue a drunken damsel in distress. "It was 3am in Trafalgar Square and she looked too well presented to be in such a terrible state," he said. "She was lying on the pavement and I thought I've got to get her a cab. "I tried to get an address from her but she was so far gone she couldn't remember where she lived. "I was staggering with her towards the taxi rank when she suddenly started screaming, 'you're that horrible Soames man'. "I thought the cops were going to come so I just ran." Lewis has been delighted by the diversity of responses generated by his Soames role. His fiendish deeds in the ITV1 drama, which returns next year, have included raping his wife. Lewis said: "Reactions range from screaming to feeling sorry for him. "It's what I wanted - I didn't want him to be a stereotypical villain. I wanted ambiguity and that has been vindicated by people's reactions." http://uk.tv.yahoo.com/021125/128/dffjh.html

If anybody thinks that I have bad taste or no taste that's okay. But I liked him, so there LOL... So did I. But don't go up to Fan Fic on #172 when I just contradicted myself about bad boys. DL"I wanted ambiguity and that has been vindicated by people's reactions." He sure nailed ambiguity.

Thanks Saskia! That's a funny story. I think he made it up. ;-) I just saw the preview to the Steven King film he's in. Looks very creepy.

From my MT newsletter: THE FORSYTE SAGA, SERIES II Sundays, February 8 - 22, 2004 What better way to follow the re-airing of THE FORSYTE SAGA, SERIES I (Sundays, December 21 through February 1, 2004), than with the continuation of the story? SERIES II, based on John Galsworthy's book To Let, is a powerful story about the intensity of first love for the next generation of Forsytes. Damian Lewis, Gina McKee and Rupert Graves reprise their roles as Soames, Irene and Young Jolyon; Emma Griffiths Malin (THE CAZALETS) and Lee Williams (Billy Elliot) take on the major roles of Fleur and Jon.

I now declare this topic open again for business. *making my final lap around the oval* Reminder: First episode airs this Sunday.

Mild Spoilers.... The NY Times Review - February 6, 2004 TV WEEKEND | 'THE FORSYTE SAGA II' Stiff Upper Lips Set to a Jazz Age Beat By ALESSANDRA STANLEY Members of the English upper class wriggling to ragtime in evening clothes can be an alarming sight. But there are few more effective ways of conveying the decline of the British Empire after World War I. The discomfiture, the yearning to keep spirits as blithe as they never really were and the undignified scramble to adapt to a faster, alien rhythm are all telegraphed in a few incongruous dance steps. That England is the setting for Series II of the "The Forsyte Saga," a beguiling three-part mini-series that begins Sunday on "Masterpiece Theater" on PBS. Or at least it is England as Soames Forsyte (Damian Lewis) views it from his bitter, sidelined perspective. This sequel to "The Forsyte Saga" that was shown on PBS in the fall of 2002 is based on "To Let," the third novel in John Galsworthy's trilogy, written in 1921 by an older, more forgiving author than the one who scathingly mocked his own caste in the 1906 opening novel, "The Man of Property." The television adaptation is also more sympathetic to Soames, the priggish bourgeois who loved and married but could never own the magnificent Irene (Gina McKee). So much so that at times whole scenes are filmed as if seen through his eyes, from ungainly jazz parties to gauzy close-ups of Irene. Now wrinkled, stiff-jointed and prone to Bloomsbury-style hats that make her look like Virginia Woolf, Irene regains her full beauty only when Soames is looking at her. Soames is obsessed with money, but he is not a philistine, and it is his sensual appreciation for music, painting, architecture and English garden landscapes that enriches the screen. There is a reason that viewers are still so drawn to mini-series set in England's Edwardian and post-Edwardian age: those times have a pull that goes beyond escapist nostalgia for grace, manners and perfectly manicured lawns. The world has not changed so very much since 1880, when the saga began, and we recognize ourselves more in a fragile society bracketed by Freud and World War I than in other, lustier eras of faith and certitude. One can smile at Galsworthy's quaint equation of truth and beauty, but his themes of loss, greed and clan loyalty have a familiar ring. "The Forsyte Saga," be it this version by Granada Television of England and WGBH in Boston or the 26-part black-and-white BBC series shown on PBS in 1969, is almost as impossible to dislike as "Gone With the Wind" or the Harry Potter books. But Series II, which ends with Fleur's marriage, makes it a little easier, partly because tragic love triangles, when repeated in a second generation, tend to verge on farce. The sequel centers on the clandestine love affair between Soames's daughter from his second marriage, Fleur (Emma Griffiths Malin), and Jon Forsyte (Lee Williams), the son Irene conceived after she and Soames divorced and she fell in love with Soames's cousin Young Jolyon (Rupert Graves), the bohemian black sheep of the Forsyte clan. (Just that tiny bit of exposition helps explain why the tale is called a saga and the film versions are invariably described as "high-brow soap opera.") The two scions of feuding branches of the Forsyte family meet only once as children, in a garden at a tea party, but when they bump into each other again in an art gallery when they are 18, a spark is rekindled, horrifying their respective fathers, who unite only to keep the young lovers apart. Soames turns out to be a little less gothic than Jolyon and Irene about the family taboo, but then, he has less respect for tragedy. At the theater to see "King Lear," Soames testily sums up the plot this way: "Father, daughters, inheritance. The usual thing." World War I, which had just ended at the time of the lovers' meeting, is alluded to only elliptically, mostly as a reflection of a character's moral compass. When Soames complains that the war "changed everything," he is referring to the vulgarity of low necklines and women riding horses astride, beggars on the streets and shopgirls with "short skirts and common airs." June Forsyte (Gillian Kearney), Jolyon's daughter by his first marriage (he ran away with her governess and had two more children before meeting Irene), is Soames's opposite, all high spirits and generosity. She embraces modern art as an antidote to the horrors of Verdun and the Somme. "People are bored with sentiment," she tells her father, a traditional landscape painter who is pained by an abstract sculpture of lovers in June's art gallery. "Love has been bombed to smithereens. What does it mean anymore?" Jolyon is aghast. "Everything," he mutters. "It still means everything." Fleur is as passionately in love with Jon as her father was with Irene, but she is Soames's spoiled, willful daughter, with a healthy dose of girlish callousness stamped into Forsyte DNA. Dancing with Michael Mont, a former officer who is instantly smitten by her beauty and bold ways, Fleur has a Mitford way of flirting. "Were you in the war?" she asks Michael, who quietly answers yes. "How riveting," she replies. This Fleur is lovely, and at times bewitchingly bad, but she is more classically beautiful than the one played by Susan Hampshire in the BBC mini-series. Her looks are lushly Edwardian, and she looks best in clothes and settings of her father's choosing � silk gowns and candlelit ballrooms. The camera almost seems to be begging her to change her silly, unflattering flapper clothes and sit still for a Sargent portrait. There are other times when the Soames's-eye view is more of a hindrance, most obviously in the portrait of the Belgian millionaire playboy, Prosper Profond (Michael Maloney). Speaking with a labored Hercule Poirot accent, Prosper is a parody of the simpering Continental gigolo, which is, of course, how Soames sees him. But he is too absurd to pass as a debonair cad capable of seducing, abandoning and reseducing Soames's second wife, Annette (Beatriz Batarda), as well as entrancing his sister, Winifred (Amanda Root). In the presence of Irene, Soames swells up grotesquely with suppressed emotion, a sign that we are seeing him through her eyes. Galsworthy gave her all the virtues, but her beauty and happy marriage to Jolyon pall when Soames is out of view. It is his great passion, more than Fleur's and Jon's, that lends the sequel its grandeur and good fun. It is possible to dislike parts of Series II of "The Forsyte Saga," but it is impossible not to love Soames. THE FORSYTE SAGA II Sunday nights on most PBS stations (check local listings). A "Masterpiece Theater" presentation. Mike Fleiss, executive producer; Kenneth Fuchs, director. Produced by Next Entertainment in association with Telepictures. WITH: Damian Lewis (Soames Forsyte), Gina McKee (Irene Forsyte), Emma Griffiths Malin (Fleur Forsyte), Lee Williams (Jon), Rupert Graves (Young Jolyon), Amanda Root (Winifred Dartie), Ben Miles (Montague Dartie), Gillian Kearney (June), Michael Maloney (Prosper Profond) and Beatriz Batarda (Annette Forsyte).

Nice to see the Forsytes again last night. Monty is still the slime ball he was last year.Winifred (Amanda Root never disappoints) still getting rejection. Looks like things are heating up between Annette and the French gigolo;-))) I like Fleur, what a flirt;LOL..even with her father.She's a predator like her dad...full of passion.But I wish she would hook up with the handsome Captain Mont instead of farmer Jon who looks like a wet fish. Poor Jolyon looks like he's checking out.(At least this time, the characters are getting older.) Loved Soames at the garden party in the striped blazer and straw boater. That's a wonderful era..clothes, music. But how about that background music, I could hardly hear the dialogue. Irene-ee is still a pill.

Oooh! Wasn't it good last night. I have to admit I was a bit confused with some of the characters at first. June really threw me for a loop. Now, she doesn't look like she's aged a day. I probably should've watched the repeats of the first season that PBS had replayed. Fleur and Jon were adorable, and I didn't think Lee Williams, who plays Jon, was piscine in the least. Adorable. He looks a bit familiar, but other than playing a dancer in Billy Elliot, I haven't seen anything else he's done. Did you agree with Russell Baker's assessment that Galsworthy has made Soames much more human in the book (To Let) that formed basis for this installment? Perhaps as it relates to Fleur, yes, but not really toward anyone else. What June said still appeared true. (Evelyn) Poor Jolyon looks like he's checking out.(At least this time, the characters are getting older.) Loved Soames at the garden party in the striped blazer and straw boater. Yeah, that new outfit took years off Soames. LOL!

Caught the Forsythe Saga last night, due to your recommendations . .for some reason thought it was a re-ariing of the original production, not a continuation of it;) . .I had caught just a bit of the end of the original some time ago . . . must rent it . .Netflix here I come. as well as picking up the 6 novels . .I belive the series is based upon . . . ooh . .the woman who played Winifred . .that was the woman in Persuasion . .w/ Ciaran Hinds . . . correct? Thought Fleur was a little imp . .totally had daddy wrapped around her finger . .poor Soames in the garden party outfit . .that look on his face when he first stepped out of the dressing room . .and when Fleur suggested the boater with the pink ribbon;) Jon . .fishy???? . .I dunno about that . .but did like the Michael Monty character . .would be rather interested to see Fleur's relationship with him develop rather than the one with Jon . . . Am eagerly awaiting the next part of this 2nd series. And though it probabably already has been posted: Here are the 2 official sites for the 1st and 2nd Forstythe saga series;) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/forsyte/index.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/forsyte2/index.html

It was nice to see Soames "feel the love." :-) Fleur is his weak spot, she has him wrapped around her finger. And see how nicely he responds when someone truly loves him? I can't figure out why someone doesn't just tell Fleur and Jon that Soames and Irene were married, it ended bitterly, and that's that. And why try to separate the two young people for something that wasn't their fault?

(Mari) I can't figure out why someone doesn't just tell Fleur and Jon that Soames and Irene were married, it ended bitterly I know. Drove me nuts. What's the big deal? Seems like everyone and their charwoman knows the truth but those two idiots. But I did enjoy Fleur's investigative work and conclusions. ;-) Another series highlight: Soames being cuckolded. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy LOL! Didn't Jon say that his father had had two wives? So the mother of the two other children (Holly and ??? though not June) wasn't Jolyon's wife. They did marry, didn't they? If so, why wouldn't Jon realize that Jolyon had three wives? Or is he just a simpleton farmer. ;-)

Random odd questions . .as one who has not seen the previous series nor read the books. . . That Degas pic . .the woman trying on hats . .the one from the post card in Paris and the one Soames bout at the auction . . Was Irene unknowingly the subject of the pic? . .For some reason looking at it reminds me of her . . (Mari)I can't figure out why someone doesn't just tell Fleur and Jon that Soames and Irene were married, it ended bitterly, and that's that. And why try to separate the two young people for something that wasn't their fault? I was curious about that . .was there such a large scandal when Irene left Soames? . . . .I guess bitterness over the situation/long holding grudges are a possibility . . .are we sure that Jon is definitly Jolyon's and Irene's son? . .I know that sounds so soap opera-ish . .is ther a slight possibility that Jon and Fleur could be brother and sister as opposed to just "distant cousins?"

Didn't Jon say that his father had had two wives? So the mother of the two other children (Holly and ??? though not June) wasn't Jolyon's wife. Karen - was checking out the family tree on the Forsythe web pages . .looks like the Holly and the other child . .were Joylon's through that governess from the first series . . Helene D.? The other child . .a son . .by the name of Jolly D. Can't really tell if they were married or not from the tree . .

(Kimberly) looks like the Holly and the other child . .were Joylon's through that governess from the first series . . Helene D.? But they eventually married. (thanks for the family tree tip, so I won't be saying whatsername) He left Frances for the governess, lived in sin for a long time, but eventually married. The kids all know they had different mothers. But I'm sure Jon said his dad had had two wives only. Might replay the tape. Was Irene unknowingly the subject of the pic? . .For some reason looking at it reminds me of her . . Really, it's supposed to look like Fleur, which is one reason Soames had to have it. was there such a large scandal when Irene left Soames? LOL! This *WAS* the entire first series! are we sure that Jon is definitly Jolyon's and Irene's son? Well, it sure wouldn't have been Soames'. The kid isn't constipated enough looking. ;-)

Jolyon had June with first cold fish wife...then he ran off with governess and had Holly and a boy...don't you remember how they lived in S. London in squalor? Kimberley you're going to have to rent Series 1. Or this series won't make any sense to you. Also liked seeing Robin Hill...the Frank Lloyd Wright;-) house.

yeah, yeah, yeah...but didn't they marry eventually? I don't remember what happened to Frances, though recall she played the wronged wife to the hilt. Did she die? She wouldn't have given Jolyon a divorce unless she had somebody else lined up. Kim: This is total soap opera, masquerading as Nobel Prize-winning lit. ;-)

(Karen)Kim: This is total soap opera, masquerading as Nobel Prize-winning lit. ;-) And I get confused working on One Life to Live! . .the first series now is a must see;)!!! are we sure that Jon is definitly Jolyon's and Irene's son? Well, it sure wouldn't have been Soames'. The kid isn't constipated enough looking. ;-) Perhaps the constipation hasn't surfaced yet;) But . .according to Evelyn. . .he might be the fishmonger's kid;)

Naw, I thought him adorable. Definitely from the genes of a Rupert Graves... ;-0

(Kim)is ther a slight possibility that Jon and Fleur could be brother and sister as opposed to just "distant cousins?" Oooh, wouldn't that be delicious?! Shades of John Sayles' Lone Star. Actually that thought crossed my mind while I was trying to recall the first series, but then realized that years had gone by between Irene's divorce and her marrigage to Jolyon. Also, wasn't she married to Jolyon's father before the old boy keeled over, or was she just living in his house? BTW, Kim, you do know that Soames raped Irene in the first series, right?

Also, wasn't she married to Jolyon's father before the old boy keeled over, or was she just living in his house? They were just friends/companions, and I don't think she was actually living there. She visited a lot.

(Mari)BTW, Kim, you do know that Soames raped Irene in the first series, right? Really??? . .oooh I feel a wonderful melodrama evolving;) . . . .hurry up netflix!!! Also, wasn't she married to Jolyon's father before the old boy keeled over, or was she just living in his house? They were just friends/companions, and I don't think she was actually living there. She visited a lot. See this is where I caught a bit of the 1st series . .Old Jolyon persuaded Irene to teach young June piano, right? . .And the poor man died out there in the garden/patio ( I remembered the white furniture). .right where in this series Jolyon told the older June that his heart was bad and he was dying . .

(Mari)BTW, Kim, you do know that Soames raped Irene in the first series, right? Only found this out by reading through the PBS website today. Was it while they were married? Was it the final impetus for her to leave him? (Mari)I can't figure out why someone doesn't just tell Fleur and Jon that Soames and Irene were married, Yes, it does seem like much ado about nothing, but probably reflective of the age in which it was written. I'd assumed that something far worse had occured until I read the website today. (Evelyn)Kimberley you're going to have to rent Series 1. Or this series won't make any sense to you. Thank you all for helping to fill me in. Like Kimberley, I missed the first series but was motivated to catch up last night based on your recommendations. So whenever you get that first series from Netflix, Kimberley, perhaps you'd be willing to send it my way before it goes back? It's obvious that it's a must ...particularly after eyeballing that family tree. At the very least, this is a pleasant diversion while I wait for that long awaited copy of HS to get here in April.

Oh goody...the more, the merrier.Love having a spirited discussion. Last time, was great fun.

Hurrah! It repeats here late tonight. Fell asleep very early last night and missed it. Must catch up to have my share of the conversation. ;-)

I caught the Russell Baker's intro to the second to the last episode of series one tonight (confusing, huh?) on the Indiana PBS station. Anyway, the important thing was age. When Soames was about to marry Annette, RB said he was 43 yrs old and Irene had been gone for 12 yrs. OK, Fleur looks to be somewhere about 18-20ish, so do you think Soames looks 60+!

(Karen)OK, Fleur looks to be somewhere about 18-20ish, so do you think Soames looks 60+! I was looking at the aging of the characters . .I'm always facinated with that makeup wise . .Irene looked great . .just some wrinkling around her eyes . .how old was she supposed to be in the 2nd series? Soames . . . 60ish? .. .I'd have to take another look next Sunday;) I did think they over did the liver spots on Montague . . .I think I recall a shot of his hands . .as he was overlooking some of his bills/debts . .and I thought to myself . .well someone's just taken an eyeliner pencil and tried to create a dot-to-dot puzzle type thing on his hand! Wanted to get a wetnap and rub half of them off;)

Irene looked great Somewhere, perhaps in Russell Baker's introduction, I heard the comment that Irene always looks younger in Soames' eyes, and I really noticed that in the newest episode. To us she's showing some age, grey hair, eye wrinkles, etc., but when we're looking through Soames's eyes -- when he saw her for the first time in years -- she looked much younger and more lively. I'll have to watch for that in the next episode to decide if it is intentional differences in her makeup, or if that comment was so suggestive that I just saw it that way.

Irene would probably be a good 10+ yrs younger than Soames. She had an affair with June's beau (Bossinnay, played by Ioan G), who also designed Robin Hill for them. You really must watch the first series!

(Deb)when he saw her for the first time in years -- she looked much younger and more lively. Irene-ee lively? With Soames around ? Nevah. (Must go watch that one again.) What I did notice ,was the first time Soames sees her at June's gallery , the shot is taken through an opening of the Cupid sculpture. (Karen) so do you think Soames looks 60+! Yes. Except when he's dancing with Fleur. He adores her.

Boy, that Fleur is a pip! And a flake, though a cunning one. She's full of joie de vive, which I like, but I'd need a break from her. A bit too much for me sometimes. She and Jon are cute together, but he's an easily led boy. Give me the *man*, Michael Mont. Mmmm, mmmm. I got kinda creeped out a few times with Fleur and Soames. :-/ I don't think Soames looks 60-ish. The makeup is fair, a few age spots on the face and a few wrinkles. Of course, he could just be aging well. ;-) He just walks slower and holds his body stiffer, esp his neck, to denote advanced age, IMO. I found it distracting. But Kimberly, you're right about Monty's age spots. Looks like they multiplied like Tribbles. I'm sad for Jolyon. :-( He's such a cutie. Poor Irene, too. They've been so happy.