Speculation; Visiting the Lakes

Interesting question Anna. I like to think that Darcy and Lizzy would have been together anyway. He still loved her, he had changed enough that he probably would have made his confession to Bingley (especially since he now knows that Jane returned his feelings), Bingley would have returned to Hertfordshire, Darcy would have visited, he would see Lizzy again, he would again be conquered by that fine pair of eyes. So I think it would have worked out, but it wouldn't have been nearly so exciting or satisfy ng as having Darcy play the heroic Avenging Angel! (not to mention the irreversibility of Lydia's situation in life)

I'm afraid that they might have passed like ships in the night - I've always interpreted the "conquering" to be of his obsession with Elizabeth - going along with his parting statement that he now perfectly understood her feelings and had now only to be ashamed of his own. Unless something happened to throw them together again, I do not think it would have happened. Joan, too

I'd have to agree with Cheryl on this one...but then again, I believe in kismet...the Bingley-Jane thing would have been resolved, thus throwing Lizzy and Darcy together again...even if not...I still can't imagine Darcy giving up quite so easily! He may be able to talk himself out of love for a little while...but he'd come back around... - K

I don't feel that they would be ships that passed in the night because he doesn't know how she feels about the letter. I think he would want some closure and so would Lizzie. She always said how terrible she felt in misjudging him. He would definitly would seek her out for that reason. He could invite Jane and Lizzie to Pemberly for a visit. Why not?

Why not? -- because it would look distinctly odd unless Jane and/or Elizabeth had already come to some kind of understanding with their respective "beaux". (Also, Georgiana would have to be there as formal hostess.) I agree that if the Gardiners hadn't come to Derbyshire, then probably Bingley would have come back to Netherfield sometime during the following year or two, at least for a few weeks (especially since Darcy would be giving him looser rein after the Lizzie proposal fiasco at Rosings). Once Jane and Bingley came together, Elizabeth and Darcy would be sure to have many opportunities of meeting... Another possible channe of contact, in addition to Bingley/Netherfield, would have been Rosing/Hunsford (Charlotte and Lady Catherine). So there were still possibilities...

I agree with Joan so far as "I shall conquer this" goes. I think Darcy was trying to get over his frustration, depression, hopelessness, etc. But I also agree with Cheryl and Mysterious HC - there would have been some way for Darcy to get back to see Lizzy. I think the Netherfield scenario would have been the most likely. But the chance meeting in Derbyshire is by far the most satisfying and I'm glad JA wrote it that way.

Mr.HC of course Georgiana would be there then Mr. Darcy could formally invite them along with there most recent acquaintences Bingley's and Hurst's. What If he gave a ball in honor of his sister.

Never ever forget my friends "it is a truth universally acknowleged that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife." They would have met otherwise - however it was Darcy's good behavour at his own estate Pemb. that made the final difference As for the "conquering" I think it is conquering his own perceived weakness in an infactuation with a woman far beneath his station in life

But Donna, after having his head bitten off by Lizzie, I doubt that even curiosity as to what she thought of his letter would have led him to extend an invitation to visit, thus putting himself into the position of giving her another opportunity to cut him dead if his letter had not caused her to change her opinion of him. In the book, after the second proposal, Darcy reveals that in hindsight he had hoped that she had destroyed the letter because he remembered having made "some expressions which might justly make you hate me" and he dreaded her "having the power of reading it again." He would have had little hope of receiving anything but additional grief from extending such an invitation. And he would hardly be motivated to invite Jane, having taken such particular effort to dissuade Bingley from continuing associating with her. I think that JA meant us to feel quite hopeless about all this until the chance meeting at Pemberley (Deus ex machina) gave both of them an opportunity for a fresh start.

In terms of "I shall conquer this" I think he meant two things. His own misguided pride and conceit and his pain at loosing Lizzie. Darcy shows us after Lizzie's refusal that he is a introspective man capable of seeing/changing his in darker sides. Even if he and Lizzie never got togther(GOD FORBID!) I think he still took her feedback to heart and changed.

I agree with the view that Darcy, despite persisting doubts about the rest of the family, would have wanted to repair the damage he'd done Jane, so Bingley would probably have returned. However, even with the opportunities that would follow, I'm not sure that Darcy would have had the resolve to front Lizzy 'cold'. Her rejection of him was extremely thorough and damaging, and although, some of her conclusions were based on false premises, his manner to her *had* been appalling. It would have taken great applomb as well as obsession for him to approach Elizabeth again, and although he had the latter, I'm not so sure about the former... Anna

"I shall conquer this" I think Darcy meant the refusal and his admiration for Lizzy's "fine eyes".

Wasn't the meeting at Pemberly "cold"? I think that is the only way they could have met eachother with such frankness...abruptly and by accident...no doubt, physical proximity is the key...the Jane/Bingley and Charlotte/Rosings connections would assure some sort of close contact at one time or another... Still... do you all think the fact that this meeting is on Darcy's "home turf" makes the situation right for both of them to realize that their relationship is changing? After all...Darcy is at home...comfortable. Complicating factors (including Hurricane Bennet,Caroline Bingley, and the rest of the chaos which so agrravated D before) are not present. Also...What about Mrs. Reynold's comments about Mr. Darcy and his family? Lizzy is obviously touched by them...she is also beginning to appreciate the w ole of his life and not just himself (she learns about his parents, his sister, his home...). Lizzy jokes that her feelings for him began to change upon seeing Pemberley, but it's true! Pemberley provides a window into his life she's never had access to...and opportunity to meet Mr. Darcy unflustered by complicated events. - K

By the way, the "conquer" line isn't in the book...

] Mich: ] Even if he and Lizzie never got togther(GOD FORBID!) I think he still took her feedback to heart and changed. Oh, I agree - he took it to heart - but I do not think that he felt that he would ever have the opportunity to demonstrate his changed attitude to Lizzie untill the accidental meeting at Pemberley. ] Kali: ] Wasn't the meeting at Pemberly "cold"? I think that is the only way they could have met eachother with such frankness...abruptly and by accident.. Oh yes, I also think that the key to the

] Mich: ] Even if he and Lizzie never got togther(GOD FORBID!) I think he still took her feedback to heart and changed. Oh, I agree - he took it to heart - but I do not think that he felt that he would ever have the opportunity to demonstrate his changed attitude to Lizzie untill the accidental meeting at Pemberley. ] Kali: ] Wasn't the meeting at Pemberly "cold"? I think that is the only way they could have met eachother with such frankness...abruptly and by accident.. Oh yes, I also think that the key to the

I GIVE UP! I am not typing into this dumb window any more. It has thrown away most of a long post that took forver to set up with quoted stuff! Why does it do that??? From now on I am typing strictly offline. GRRRRRRR!

] Mich: ] Even if he and Lizzie never got togther(GOD FORBID!) I think he still took her feedback to heart and changed. Oh, I agree - he took it to heart - but I do not think that he felt that he would ever have the opportunity to demonstrate his changed attitude to Lizzie untill the accidental meeting at Pemberley. ] Kali: ] Wasn't the meeting at Pemberly "cold"? I think that is the only way they could have met eachother with such frankness...abruptly and by accident.. Oh yes, I also think that the key to the

Joan...I'm sorry that the window ate your post...please share your thought...! - K

[sigh] There were too many of them and I would have to read all of the old stuff again to try to resurrect them. I shall just avoid typing in the window in future. Unlike other windows we are typing into, this one seems to clear itself instantly, and you can't go back to retrieve it - (though it sometimes claims that you can)

"I shall conquer this, I shall" My first thought when I heard this line was that he wanted to conquer Lizzie, I never thought that he was the type of man to give up on the love of his life. (Although the word 'this' does not seem quite right to mean Lizzie)

Kali said; ]Wasn't the meeting at Pemberly "cold"? Darcy probably was by then, but not in the way I meant. Elizabeth's rejection of Darcy was extremely thorough and damaging, to deliberately set out to meet her again would take great social applomb as well as obsession. Although Darcy has the latter, I don't think he has the former. ] I think that is the only way they could have met each other with such frankness...abruptly and by accident. I agree with this - I think that each would have avoided a meeting if they could, so without the Pemberley meet they would never have seen each other again, and Lizzy wouldn't even have regretted it. MHC ] By the way, the "conquer" line isn't in the book... yeah I know, but I like it anyway (anything to get D out of that hat!) - it doesn't seem out of character to me

I agree that Pemberly had it's affect, not only the house keeper, let's don't forget the estate and the line from the book about the way that the view of the house changed a little her feelings "She felt that the misterss of Pemberly might be something"

I don't think Darcy would have just suffered through his deep, unreturned, feelings for Elizabeth. I don't know how, but I choose to believe something would have eventually brought them together again. Wasn't it Tinkerbell who said 'You have to believe'!

I think that your question about meeting at Pemberly is a moot point. From what I get from the book is that they did not replace their plans by going to Derbyshire, but limit the trip to that county. They were touring the north anyway, and I cannot believe that considering how Mrs. Gardiner felt about Lampton, that it would not have been on the original itinerary. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

I think that Austen, being the incredible genius she was, set up that chance meeting at Pemberley as the exact right way to get these two back together. I also believe that the "I shall conquer this" line from the film directly refers to Darcy's feelings for Lizzy. So if they hadn't been thrown together, I rather doubt that Darcy would have renewed his addresses after the way she flamed him at Hunsford.

I'm sorry, Amy2, but I cannot believe that Mr. Darcy would forgo the love of his life just because she misunderstood him...the most important lesson he leared from Elizabeth was to limit the negative manifestations of his pride...in this case, that would mean swallowing it and trying a different tack rather than spurning her back... I believe that the Pemberley meeting was a defining moment in their relationship, but that they would have found eachother regardless... From my (readjusted) perspective, Kali

Lizzie tells Darcy that he couldn't have proposed to her in any way that would tempt her to marry him. Also the part about being ungentlemanly really stung Darcy. The meeting at Pemberley was Darcy's chance to show her he could behave in a gentlemanly manner. He says at the end of the second proposal that hearing of Elizabeth's behaviour during Lady Catherine's visit gave him reason to hope. It would have been obvious to him at dinner at Pemberley that Elizabeth had softened towards him but it would have taken him a while to be sure enough of this before attempting a second proposal. He was hurt enough by the first rejection. He wouldn't risk a second humiliation. The morning after dinner at Pemberley Darcy visits Elizabeth and finds her with Jane's letter about Lydia. Why did Darcy go there? What was his purpose? Was it the done thing to enquire after you guests health the morning after? I think I've read something to that effect. Any ideas? Jackie

Ya think that maybe he was gonna propose? - K

Maybe, we can only guess

]Why did Darcy go there? What was his purpose? I feel sure that he didn't visit the Inn to propose. I agree that he was too hurt by the rejection to renew his addresses until he had some confidence that he may meet with success. I think that he had fallen back into the mode of his feelings when they were at Netherfield and at Hunsford; he couldn't stay away from her. He wanted to see her, to be near her. Now, he also wanted her to see that her refroofs had been attended to. And, to ascertain if he could hope to ever change her opinion that he was the last man in the word that she could ever be prevailed upon to marry. Linda

Kali: I admire your feelings as a fellow Romantic, but I still contend that after Lizzy told D. that he was "the last man on earth I could be prevailed upon to marry" he wouldn't have gone out of his way to find her unless they had been thrown together. Remember too that his letter to her only clears his name with regard to Wickham; as far as Jane & Bingley are concerned, he freely admits to separating them, so Lizzy still has cause to be mad at him, before he plays the White Knight in the Lydia/Wickham affair.

If they had neve met at Pemberly and once he had found out about Lydia's/Wickahm adventure don't you think he would have felt so much guilt where Wickham is concerned and would go after them anyway. I do because he feels very responsible for Whickham who should have been a brother.

That's a good point. Considering his feelings for Lizzie, guilt over concealing Wickham's true character, etc., he probably would have done the same. I guess anyway you look at it, that Lydia Elopement sub-plot is necessary!

Kali, I think you were right on target when you said that at Pemberley we see Darcy on his home turf. I have always thought that he is a real homebod and family man at heart (hates parties, loves fishing, takes great care of his extended family(Wickham,his tenants and servants).He rides on ahead of the main party in order to attend to some business, presumably on the estate.What Lizzie sees is a man trying hard to be nice, but also far more relaxed than she has ever seen him before.At the dinner party, it is obvious that he is really happy.When he walks into the Bull at Lampton he is still optimistic, still on high from the night before, not bracing himself for another proposal and possible rejection.Perhaps estate business was in the offing again, and he just couldn't resist the chance to get sidetracked again by her.

I think we've run past this ground before, but I really got the impression that after all the fuss Darcy made about his appearance, he was going to Lampton to propose.

No, no, no!! Not to propose. He felt a little encouragement from the previous evenings events, so he wanted to determine how much of her opinion of him had changed. He wanted to see her, and of course, to look his best so that he could make a favorable impression. I think that he may have been planning to initiate a proper courtship; to try to make her forget the past and learn to love the new Darcy. In Chapter 60, after the engagement, he admits that "Lady Catherine's unjustifiable endeavours to separate us were the means of removing all my doubts." When questioned by Elizabeth about why he came to Longbourn, he says, "My real purpose was to see you, and to judge, if I could, whether I might ever hope to make you love me." He was much too unsure of her feelings for him to risk another proposal at this point. Linda

Well Linda, I guess I have to grudgingly agree with you here. It wouldn't have suited J.A.'s purpose to have these two get together before Lady Catherine was able to meddle and "be of use."

Something missed in previous discussions of this is the fact that Darcy would have had no expectation of finding Elizabeth alone and every expectation of finding her with Mr. and Mrs. Gardiner. He couldn't very well propose with her relatives sitting right there!

I agree, I think he meant to invite her to his place again. He wanted another opportunity to show her the "new & improved" Mr.D.

I think we are all masochists when it comes to affairs of the heart. I know I, in the past, have stooped to the level of inventing (even if only to myself) a spurious excuse to be near the one who has my heart. I think Darcy falls into this category. I think he would have invented reasons to be near her no matter what he thought of conquering his obsession. It may have taken more time if Lizzie had not shown up at Pemberly, but he would have taken steps at some point to be with her. Look at Capt. Wentwort in Persuasion. He thinks 8 years was enough to get over Anne, but he realized he was not. Sign.

Dina wrote: ]... It may have taken more time if Lizzie had not shown up at Pemberly, but he would have taken steps at some ]point to be wit her. Look at Capt. Wentworth in Persuasionl He thinks 8 years was enough to get over Anne, but he ]realized he was not. Sign. Do you not love constancy in a man?? Linda

But think about the last time Darcy left Lizzie before she shows up at Pemberley. She tells him in no uncertain terms that "I had not known you a month before I determined you were the last man I could be prevailed upon to marry." And the way that Ehle delivers that line, you BELIEVE her. So he gives her the letter -- which absolves his behavior as far as Wickham -- but not as far as Bingley & Jane. He's still commited the wrong in her eyes, and has done nothing yet to clear himself. Why then would h seek out a woman who's given him a thorough verbal trashing? How is he to know that her feelings have changed?

How is he to know that her feelings have changed? I can understand what you are saying but he is not like "most" men. His "determination" out weighed his "humiliation". He did go back to the parsonage only to find the Lizzie was not there.

I am sorry but when you are head over heals you are a masochist. He may be the last man she'd marry (on that day) but when he cannot get over it this is a sure sign that he will make up reasons to see her. Absolving himself over the Bingley/Jane issue would be one excuse. When he got wind of the Lydia fiasco he would have talked himself into the need to apologize face to face. Does this make sense? I just feel like I've been through it I guess. Dina

Dina, so many movies/books have showed the man waiting for the women to come around to his way of feeling but, I don't think Mr. Darcy gets pleasure out of this.It was very painful for Lizzie as well. He just knows the truth. That is why he is determined that she knows it and understand his reasons for the things he did. He did write that he doesn't want to cause her anymore pain. Her rejection has made him a better person.

Time and reflection heals all woundsfor both involved. He realized this and so did she.

The same in my case as well. I would hope I learned something (one being: don't be so stupid, get over it) as well. I am a hopeless romantic and would hope for happy endings always. I guess my idea comes from the original question of how they will get together if Lizzy didn't go to the Lakes. Well, off to the office Christmas party, I'll check back Monday. Dina

Mich say about Darcy's last meeting with Eliz. at Lampton. "I think he meant to invite her to his place again. He wanted another opportunity to show her the "new & improved" Mr.D. But, in the book, the next invitation to P. had already been offered and accepted when this visit took place. I think he just wanted to see Eliz. again and felt enough encouragement and elation to 'drop-in' has he had at Rosings. The 'home turf theroy': I like it. There were other ways to get Eliz and Darcy together again - but this way gives them each an opportunity to see the otherr 'at home' before the real commitment has been made.

If Lizzy hadn't "dropped in" at Pemberley, how would Darcy have known about the Lydia fiasco? From big-mouth Mr. Collins, who took it upon himself to tell Lady Catherine "the whole"?

Mr. Darcy's opinion of Jane's indifference toward Mr. Bingley is justified beforehand by Charlotte. After reading the letter a few times she deems it to be true. That Jane's manner toward Bingley could be seem in that way. That fact that Lizzie gave him such a verbal thrashing is that he hurt her deeply once more. Upon refletion she knew he was right. He dosen't want her to think ill of him just as she doesn't want him to think ill of her even before the visit at Pemberely. This is JA way of them meeting does give them away to start again. When Mr. Darcy finds out about Lydia/Wickham this does give him a chance to make amends. The only thing left would to get Bingley to Jane. JA could of had him get Bingely and Jane together before L/W too. I have to say I love the entire Pemberely visit {the stroll along the stream] even with all its awkwardness. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

I guess my question was: IF Lizzy hadn't shown up in Derbyshire, then how would Darcy have found out about Lydia/Wickham so he could rectify the matter? Would Mr. Collins' report to Lady C. have found its way up to him at Pemberley?

Yes Amy, absolutely. I am not sure there is any other source it could reach him. Unless Bingley heard it on a return trip to Netherfield. But I think most likely it would be heard sooner from the Collin's to LC. Can't you just hear Lady Catherine talking about that "young women who expresses herself so decidedly. You know the one who's sisters are ALL out? This is what is leads too...." He may have heard about it too late to make the sort of arrangments he did. Wickham would probably have dumped Lydia bef re Darcy would have reached them in London. By then the Bennett's would have left Meryton in shame. But I think Darcy would have found Lizzie and done SOMETHING. Maybe even chase down Wickham and make him make an honest woman out of Lydia. Can't you just see Wickham and Darcy showing up at the Bennett's (where did Mrs. B say they should go... Bath?) front door. Mrs. B. screaming for Mr. B. not to shoot Wickham (like he would make the effort). Lizzie standing there with her mouth open. Lydia in tears: "Oh ord, what am I to do". Those two deserve each other! Then he would still have to fix the Jane/Bingley thing. Oh, the possibilities! Dina

That scenario sounds like a lot of fun. I do love the way Jane A. structured P&P so that Lizzy & Darcy do meet up again; he has the chance to show her he's changed; he gets the opportunity to play the "Avenging Angel" in the Wickham/Lydia affair. So what seemed like a silly conventional subplot -- the elopment -- really does advance the main story in so many ways!

I'm curious about something - a "what if" scenario. What if Lizzy had not gone to Pemberley, but Darcy found out about the elopement right away from LC. Then the rest of the story went the same way - he tracked down Wickham and made him marry Lydia, then Lydia spilled the beans to Lizzie about his attendance at her wedding. So, they have never had their tenuous reconciliation at Pemberley, but Lizzie now knows for sure what she has been suspecting since she got his letter - that Darcy is a good man. How do you think that they would finally have gotten together?

By running into eachother at Netherfield (via Jane and Bingley) or Rosings (via Charlotte), of course...or Elizabeth might even take it upon herself to search him out for apology...

Kathleen, Lizzie would have run into Darcy somewhere else, it is true, but the main requirement would be a field of buttercups for Darcy to walk through, after a quick dip. I suspect that the extensive gardens at Rosings could do the trick.

Yes, even if she had not made the trip to Derbyshire, she could still have expressed her thanks the same way she did previously on that windy walk. But she still would not have first-hand evidence of the "new, improved" Darcy, and I wonder if that would be a problem. . .

Another way for Darcy to learn of Lydia's elopement might have been through Caroline Bingley. She might have had contacts in Meryton who coulf have told her of it. I can see her triumphantly informing Darcy of it.

Yes, in P&P0 they made quite a point of having C.B. laugh at Lizzy & Jane as they ran through Meryton to try to escape gossip. . .

Re: 17:59 - Ann: through Caroline Bingley. She might have had contacts in Meryton Caroline? Contacts in Meryton??? When she left there, in her letter to Jane, she admitted that there was no one in Hertfordshire whose society she would miss other than Jane's - and we know that she was lying about missing Jane. Not too likely that she'd have any confidantes there, though she would, indeed, have relished reporting such a thing to Darcy.

I don't think that Darcy intended to propose that morning when he came to see her, but it's a good thing he didn't, since the book makes it clear that Lizzie only becomes aware of her true feelings for Darcy after she realizes that she will never see him again because of the Lydia/Wickham fiasco. As for the Bennets leaving Meryton in disgrace, I don't think that was in the book at all. In P&P0 they made a comical event out of this (Lady Catherine sits on Mary's music box, no it wasn't very funny to me either) but I think it is wholly without foundation. To me it seemed a very 20th-Centery American idea that you could move away to escape your disgrace. What I know of genteel society in Regency England, you couldn't easily escape this kind of discrace in the relatively confined and unvarying society of the whole country, even if you could pick up and move from your inherited estate.

You are right, Kathy -- the proposed departure in P&P0 was not in the book. If the Bennets had fled to Bath, I wonder if they could have escaped Lydia's disgrace had Darcy not discovered her & Wickham. . .

Didn't JA flee to bath after she broke off her engagement to her father's curate (a rather shocking thing to do?)

Wow! I take it she didn't flee alone -- was some other member of her family with her?

I think you're confusing Jane Austen and Charlotte Bronte. Jane Austen fled to Bath on one occasion (along with her sister Cassandra) when she first accepted and then rejected the proposal of a financially eligible landed gentleman, In Charlotte Bronte's case, her father's curate fled when Mr. Bronte was opposed to the possiblity of his marrying Charlotte. The basic facts about the Bigg-Wither episode are on my website: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/janelife.html http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh/pre-faq.txt

I wish that curate had fled and stayed away, if it was the same one who ended up marrying her. She might have lived longer and written more.

Do you all think that the only way Darcy could hear about the elopement would be from Lydia's disgrace. I would find it more likely, that gossip about his former playmate Wickham was constantly reaching Pemberley and the staff. Remember Mrs Reynolds saying something about "his going into the army and turning out very wild"? So a report of such alarming nature migth not have to pass Rosings before it came to Derbyshire. And as for the Jane-Bingley affair he did know of Jane's true feelings. In the letter he wrote:'If you have not been mistaken here,I must have been in error. Your superior knowledge of your sister must make the latter probable.' And later in the letter he admits that he assured Bingley of Jane's indifference and that Bingley depended on Darcy's judgement. I think Darcy would have told his friend somehow and even confessed the bit about Jane's beeing in London for several months.