Amy2-Interestingly enough, some literary critics suspected Ms. Mitchell of plagerism vis-a-vis Vanity Fair, noting the Becky/Amelia and Scarlett/Melanie similiarities. I've always thought this was really stupid. There are no male characters as complete and well-drawn as Rhett and Ashley in VF. And Tracey-I think you've brought up a really good, key point-Scarlet's relationship with her mother. Throughout the book and the movie, we see that Scarlett idolizes her Mother, Ellen, and wants to be like her someday: the perfect lady, helping the needy and the poor. A key scene is her confession to Rhett after Frank's death: I always wanted to be like her, so calm and kind. And, suddenly-I've turned up disapointing.(Supposedly, Vivien Leigh fought for this line. The director/producers wanted to cut it keeping Scarlett a scheming, one-sided witch)The someday when she will turn into her mother, however, is always off somwhere in the future-when she has plenty to eat and doesn't have to worry about any carpetbaggers and Yankees taking Tara away from her. So, she puts in out of her mind and will think about it tomorrow.(I couln't resist) I've always seen Rhett, then, as trying to make her see her true self and grow up and get that sad-eyed Ashley Wilkes out of her head. He has her pegged from the start when he leaps up from the couch-you miss are no lady. And of course, as Scarlett realizes at the end-he's always been there for her-getting them out of Atlanta, listening to her shrewd business deals, and her secret admiration for her maternal Grandmother whom to use Mammy's phrase-painted up her face.(And I agree about Mammy too-one of the best characters in the book. Loyal, wise, smart and the only person to see through Scarlett, besides Rhett). And Kal(and this will be it)-I also see GWTW as a primarily feminist novel. Scarlett O'Hara-what a woman! She's smart, strong, and ingenious-tearing down her mother's curtains and going to Atalanta to save Tara. And as she might say-anyone who doesn't think so is pea green with envy!!!!

Becky Sharp was a great character all right. But Scarlett is her own person. I always thought so anyway. And I can forgive her more easily for her faults for some reason. Becky's scheming seems only selfish and vain.

I am going to take a brief and not very scholarly stab at defending my view of Scarlett's honor: We always see Scarlett from inside her rebellious mind and her constant flow of resentfulness over every chore distracts us from the chores she is accomplishing. We only see her failure. She walks out on her nursing job - at the end of the war, after four years as an unpaid volunteer, when the war is lost, the medicine has run out, men are having limbs amputated without any anesthetics. she stayed four years. And then she could not take it any more. She asks Ashley to run away with her - after a year of struggling to keep Tara going, she is about to lose it to unfair taxation. She sees no hope, no way that she can continue to take care of Ashley and his family and her sisters and Will and ...... and when she pulls herself together and tells him 'she won't have them starve because she was a fool'. She steals her sister's beau - because she was determined to save Tara, and marriage to Mr. Kennedy would pay the taxes. She went to Atlanta in her mother's curtains and a rooster's tail feathers to sell the only thing she had that she thought she could get $300 for. Ashley knew what she was up to - melanie probably did also. They let her go. The others all kept their 'faith' that something would happen to save them. Only Mammie was willing to put herself on the line with Scarlett. If you judge Scarlett by her actions and not her thoughts, you see a lot of honor and integrity in her actions, and you see that she is open to good influence as well as bad. Had Rhett met her kindly - told her the truth - that he expected to be released soon - that he would find a way to help her if she could hold on a little longer - we might have had a different story. I guess that is why he didn't do that.

Katy-I respect your point of view, but I still don't agree with it. I don't condemn Scarlett. I greatly admire her strength and fire. AS Melanie kinda said-Scarlett did what she had to do. She's a survivor and we all identify with that.I just can't call her honourable. And as for Rhett, he always told her the truth. He couldn't give her the money to pay the taxes on Tara, or the Yankees would have been on him like a june buggy(there I go quoting RB again). Plus, He reacted the way he did in the jail beca se he realized what a number she was pulling on him with-the fluttering eyelashes and affected charm. Furthermore, as S realizes later, when he gets out of jail and can get to the money, he goes to see her with the purpose of helping her save Tara. But, by that time she had married Old Frank.....

Part of the story being told here is how a pretty young girl with lots of boyfriends turns into a lonely, bitter woman in only ten years. Rhett's role was to corrupt her and then break her heart. It was necessary to the plot that we see his strengths, but he hide them from Scarlett. Compare how he used his influence to how our dear Mr. Knightly used his on Emma. Rhett tells Scarlett part of the truth. He sees her weaknesses and faults and always holds up a mirror to show them to her. He also encourages her faults with bribes and flattery. He sees her strenghts also but the only time he mentions them is during their departure from Atlanta and then when he is leaving her. On those occasions when he could be influencing her with his better judgment, he deals out ridicule or scorn or anger instead. Example: At the ball when they pass a basket to collect jewelery to support the army, Scarlett puts her wedding ring in the basket. Melanie sees her and gives hers also. Now we know that Scarlett and Melanie do not have the same feelings about their husbands, but we have no reason to believe that Scarlett felt burdened or resentful of her wedding ring. Her jesture was worthy of respect, no matter what feelings she has about her marriage. But Rhett shames her with the note he sends to Melanie when he eturns both rings. He chooses to ignore anything in Scarlett's jesture that might be honorable and respectable and focuses on what might be less worthy. If I were drowning - I would rather have a complaining, resentful Scarlett jumping in to save me than a philosophical Ashley sitting on the bank feeling regretful about his helplessness in the face of my doom.

Part of the story being told here is how a pretty young girl with lots of boyfriends turns into a lonely, bitter woman in only ten years. Rhett's role was to corrupt her and then break her heart. It was necessary to the plot that we see his strengths, but he hide them from Scarlett. Compare how he used his influence to how our dear Mr. Knightly used his on Emma. Rhett tells Scarlett part of the truth. He sees her weaknesses and faults and always holds up a mirror to show them to her. He also encourages her faults with bribes and flattery. He sees her strenghts also but the only time he mentions them is during their departure from Atlanta and then when he is leaving her. On those occasions when he could be influencing her with his better judgment, he deals out ridicule or scorn or anger instead. Example: At the ball when they pass a basket to collect jewelery to support the army, Scarlett puts her wedding ring in the basket. Melanie sees her and gives hers also. Now we know that Scarlett and Melanie do not have the same feelings about their husbands, but we have no reason to believe that Scarlett felt burdened or resentful of her wedding ring. Her jesture was worthy of respect, no matter what feelings she has about her marriage. But Rhett shames her with the note he sends to Melanie when he eturns both rings. He chooses to ignore anything in Scarlett's jesture that might be honorable and respectable and focuses on what might be less worthy. If I were drowning - I would rather have a complaining, resentful Scarlett jumping in to save me than a philosophical Ashley sitting on the bank feeling regretful about his helplessness in the face of my doom.

Right on about Ashley. I could never imagine why any woman, let alone Scarlett, would carry a torch for him. She's ten times the man he is!

response 91 from Katy : that could never happen in the morally superior North. ...foolish a fantasy as the superiority of one race over another...I am hoping for the day that it becomes as politically incorrect to describe my adopted home in unflattering stereotypes as it is to describe any other minority in unflattering stereotypes How so true it is but have you ever heard of the October Crisis ? Chaos roames and lurkes everywhere to make victims out of a lot of innocents. As in Nina Cheree/Youssou Oundour' wonderful song I heard today (am paraphrasing) : but when a child is born into this world he as no concept of the color of his skin and what it means but there's a million voices to tell him what he should be thinking...

You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught To be afraid Of people wose eyes Are oddly made, And people whose skin Is a different shade. You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught Before it's too late, Before you are six Or seven or eight, To hate all the people Your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught! �1949 Oscar Hammerstein II

October Crisis? no I have not heard of it - tell me more. We all read JA - that is what brings us together and what does she describe to us but a way of life based on the exploitation of one group by another? We see it everywhere - practically in every nation, always justified in the minds of the exploiters.

Margaret and Katy and others - Thanks for broaching the topic of racism in GTWT. Being an African American, I understand why people enjoy the film but personally I have not been able to endure the entire production. And typically since no one wants to acknowledge racism exists, I usually avoid discussing the movie. The stereotypes are much too painful. I am proud that Hatty McDaniel was able to win an Oscar for the role but when you consider there were no other roles for Black actors at that time . . It's one of those instances where (at least for me) the fantasy of the movie is totally eclipsed by a reality that causes rage and pain. I have so enjoyed the postings on this BB (JA is such a nice diversion from what my family call " the everyday foolishness of racism") and it encourages my heart that there are people here concerned about this problem in our country and the world.

Thanks, Karen...I completely agree with you. Jane Austen is a great respite from all the bullsh** the world throws at us. --- Katy, i hear ya. And I really do like and identify with Scarlett. However, her motivations and methodsare usually far from honorable. I side with Rhett when I say that she is like a prisoner who is not sorry for what he has done, but is very very sorry that he is going to prison. Early on, Mitchell describes Scarlett's view of life in terms of formula and untility. Scarlett sees the manners and conventions she has learned from her mother as requisite for "becoming a lady" and for use in catching men, and not so much as symbols of greater decency or morality. Perhaps this way of thinking saves her from greater hypocrisy, but all the same, she does things because they do her some kind of good. She donates her wedding ring to THe Cause because she refuses to be shown up by her rival, Melanie. And as far as the Tara tax scheme, if Rhett had had access to his money, he would have given to her if she had been honest with him. And as far as marrying Frank in the name of saving Tara! HA! She did it becuase she wanted his money for herself. Knowing Frank, he would have turned over the necessary cash to her then and there to save Suellen's home, without Scarlett personally entering into the deal. Poor Rhett never really knew where he stood with Scarlett...he always had hope that she would come to appreciate him, but whenever he thought she might reach out, she pushed him away. And when she finally decided to make a fresh start of it, Rhett had lost the patience to survive another round of second-guessing.

If I were drowning - I would rather have a complaining, resentful Scarlett jumping in to save me than a philosophical Ashley sitting on the bank feeling regretful about his helplessness in the face of my doom. ___ Good point, Katy.

"She donates her wedding ring to THe Cause because she refuses to be shown up by her rival, Melanie." In the movie, the producers let Melanie be the first to think of donating the ring. In the book, Scarlett was the first to donate her wedding ring. Yes, she did the 'right thing' with feelings of defiance and rebellion - but she did it. There was honor as well as defiance in the jesture. As for marrying Frank - she went to town to get the taxes for Tara - and she did. Yes, her mind was already racing ahead to the saw mill, even as she made up her mind to snare Old Frank. But saving Tara was the whole reason for the trip into Atlanta. Rhett could have arranged a loan for Scarlett through his friend Bell Watling. He choses instead to punish her for not telling him straight out how desparate she was to save even the meager existence she was managing to eke out at Tara for herself and her family. Mitchell always makes us aware of Scarlett's ego and selfishness. Rhett's is downplayed. He probably was intending to bail Scarlett out even as he laughed at her in the jail. He just underestimated how desparate she was.

Joan - twenty five years ago I believed the words of the 1949 Oscar Hammerstein song with all my heart. Now I am beginning to believe the opposite - that it is instinctive to hate and fear people who are 'different' from one's own group. What people have to be carefully taught is to recognize those instincts as invalid and destructive reactions to modern reality. I think it is like the instinct to run when we feel threatened - which we cannot do in the work place no matter how strong the urge - or the instinct to kill when we feel jealousy - another thing we cannot do (and certainly do not want other people doing).

re 115 :==that it is instinctive to hate and fear people who are 'different' from one's own group. What people have to be carefully taught is to recognize those instincts== Someone fears when they are threatened. An evil action sends signals of danger and to a newborn it does not come with the connotation of colors, social status (momey), politics nor religious beliefs. And these are the main reasons of miscommunications at its very least and hatred at its very strong in our society. We choose everyday, our personal choices contributes to heal or destroy the world we live in. And these choices are the same for our body (drugs, alcool, food and anything ailing us). Its so easy to give in to fear, hatred and anger, it distracts us to look at ourselves, our emotions and inner voice. How about first loving ourselves and then our neighbour and unconditionnaly. Social pressure his a cooker, but to hate or to love I believe comes down to personal choice, a conscious choice whether we face it or not. That's enough preachyness for one day ;)

reg. #106 Katy-again I must state how much I admire and identify with Scarlett, one of my all-time favorite characters. BUt, I completely disagree with your spin on the wedding ring scene. Scarlett married Charles Hamilton because she wanted to hur hurt Ashley and even India(men they marry girls like that but they don't marry them). She wouldn't let Charles touch her on their wedding night, instead he spent his honeymoon night in the chair complimenting himself on his discretion and understanding of female modesty. Plus, when he dies, she only bemoans the fact that he didn't die a hero(and therefore bring honour to her)and that his pre-mature death meant that she would have to be confined to black and couldn't go to any parties.(best case in point the scene with Mammy when Scarlett is putting on the pretty feathered hat-Mourning!For what, I don't feel anything. Why should I have to pretend and pretend.) And as for the wedding ring scene-Rhett once again had it right-I know just how much that ring means to you. With respect to Rhett as the corrupter-Again, I disagree. The gifts were tempting her out of that fake mourning. And as for Scarlett, she only turned herself into a lonely woman. It's tragic. She turned away happiness again and again with Rhett for a schoolgirl's dream of Ashley-a man she could never hope to understand if he were free.

Here's a thought--one of the most frustrating characteristics of Scarlett is her inability to be honest with Rhett, even when she truly needs him (the miscarriage scene is an example). She is afraid of his ridicule/rejection. Similarly, Rhett is never honest with Scarlett for the same reasons; he knows her feelings for Ashley. Perhaps we could say that the characters' pride induced them to prejudicial attitudes toward one another? :)

] She is afraid of his ridicule/rejection. ___ Aren't we all?

No kidding, Amy. --- To me, Katy, the ring donation scene at the bazaar is definitely a gesture of defiance, but not of honor. No matter which version to which you subscribe, Scarlett's action is meant to express her refusal to accept the dullness of widowhood, and respresents an attempt to out-Melanie Melanie herself, the moral pillar of the community and power behind the homefront movement. As far as 'saving Tara,' and even Scarlett's love for Ashley and her parents, it seems that Scarlett's main interest is to maintain some sort of fixity and constancy in her life. She is selfish and mercenary, but as she is a child, she needs some sort of fixed source from which to draw her strength. I don't blame her...I'm just the same. Still, she is far from honorable, b/c her motivations aren't mature. At first it was her parents and Tara, then it became more and more Ashley (she was ready to ditch t all to run off with him), and then, at the end, it became clear to her that Rhett was the one who had given her the goading and support she needed to keep going. When it seems that Tara is all she has left, she then grasps again at that. The best part of the Ripley sequel, to me, is the first few chapters, in which Scarlett realizes that Tara is no longer "home." She has to learn to live life on her own...

] She is afraid of his ridicule/rejection. ___ ]Aren't we all? ____ Not any more!

Good for you Myretta.

Ok - I will not tease you any more with my "Scarlett&Rhett are Emma&Knightly turned upside down" theory. I re-read GWTW recently, this time as the mother of a 15-year-old girl, and everything about Rhett seemed to strike me differently than it had before. Every teen carries a lot of rebelliousness and selfishness. I also see the enormous amount of influence someone like Rhett (twenty years older, polished, rich, ready to mock the world) could have on a rebellious teen. --------------------------------- Johanne - you are right - my language was too strong. I should have said fear and distrust were instinctive - not fear and hatred. But I do believe that fear and distrust of strangers was probably a major "group survival" instinct thousands of years ago. Now that the world is so crowded and we are all living in each others faces (and have stock piles of nuclear and chemical weapons), that instinct no longer protects us - but actually increases our vulnerability. An ins inct to build bridges between people would help us all to survive longer.

Tracey-I really agree with your ridicule/rejection theory. Rhett is afraid to show Scarlett how much he loves her, fearing he'll turn into another of her victims. And-Scarlett until the very end is too blinded by her AShley obsession to admit how much she needs and depends on him. Plus, she is unsure of his feelings. There is a scene in the book when Rhett cradles her and makes her promise that she won't have an abortion. And she asks him-do I mean all that much to you? His reply is of course-I paid a lot of money for you! Everytime I see the movie or read the book, I almost want to change the miscarriage scene when Rhett wonders if she called for him, and she does, but he doesn't know it. But, alas-then it wouldn't be GWTW....

Katy: twenty five years ago I believed the words of the 1949 Oscar Hammerstein song with all my heart. Now I am beginning to believe the opposite - that it is instinctive to hate and fear people who are 'different' from one's own group. I still agree with it. I work with children age 3 through high school. The little ones have no differentiated hate or fear. (It is often difficult to teach them not to implicitly like and trust "strangers".) Infants and small children adopted into families of different ethnic heritage do not instinctively hate and fear their families. Conflicts of this nature are taught and learned as we grow older.

When I was about 12 or so, my mother was a set dresser for our local community theater, who was doing South Pacific. I used to go with her to the theater while she worked back stage. Play rehearsals are often done out of sequence, so the song really did not register until opening night. Seeing it in the whole of the play finally made the impact. When the man who played Lt. sang this song to Nellie, he did it with so much emotion. He was angry at world, at himself, at Nellie for having the same reaction to her lover's children. But there was also regret that the world worked this way, love for Bloody Mary's daughter, a hint of despair, and a touch of defiance against the fates, as he was about to go on mission that took his life. It was a stunning moment. (And it was an amatuer perfomance). I think everyone should see this play done live...so if you get the chance..Go See It!

I guess the only thing I can add to this discussion is: 1) I always thought Scarlett was pretty reprehensible as a character, though I do admire her courage and ability to survive. 2) I don't know if fear & loathing of other racial groups is instinctive, but I DO know that demagouges like Hitler and Farrakhan know how to play upon the human fear of the Other. When you make that Other subhuman (untermenschen, in German) then what you end up with is the camps.

Amy 2 - a very good summation. All I can say is "Amen to that."

First I want to apologize to the group for starting this subject. All I really wanted to say in the beginning was that not all southerners are bigots and not all bigots are southerners. I wish I had found such simple language a few days ago. Second, let me add that I did not rejoice when I learned that racism was not unique to the American south. I grew up planning to get as far away as fast as possible. The realization that I could not escape racism by moving away was one of the major disappointments in my young adulthood. Third, I will not argue the instinct vs teaching anymore except to say that the only reason I thought it was worth mentioning is that if it is instinct, maybe we need to deal with it differently. Maybe it should be part of diversity awareness training. In my idealistic youth (back when I was sure Oscar Hammerstein had it nailed), I also thought a generation of integration - children playing together, going to school together - would fix everything. It did not. So maybe we should be thinking about dealing with it the way psychologists tell us to deal with sibling rilvary, which all siblings feel at one time or another. Instead of telling a child that the feelings are wrong or that he cannot possible really feel like that, they advise us to help the child examine the feelings and learn to deal with them -- as in "everybody probably feels like that from time to time - why do you feel like that today?" And - oh, yes, the author's implied attitude towards blacks in GWTW is the worst I have ever seen in a novel that anyone took seriously. Even her publisher's wanted her to tone it down, and that was decades before anyone thought or cared about political correctness.

At the least, let me thank you Katy for opening the door to the first tabou topic in which we have discussed with great civility no matter our differences.

At the least, let me thank you Katy for opening the door to the first tabou topic in which we have discussed with great civility and opened mind no matter our differences.

Katy, I echo Johanne's point. I was pleasantly surprised by the discuss and everyone's civility. It really encouraged me because I can get very cynical, depressed and upset during these types of discussions.

hear, hear Karen

I live in L.A., and we are confronting this issue every day. But I must say, it's not at all as grim as the media makes it out. Despite the Newsworthy Events like the riots, the truth is, for the most part, we ARE all getting along. When I walk into my building's elevator here in Hollywood, I see rappers from Priority Records upstairs; Asians; whites; Latinos, African-American businesspeople, etc. and nobody even gives it a second thought. I don't mean to sound Pollyannaish, but we are an example of s many different cultures and languages thrown together, and at base, we're dealing with it. I'm afraid if multiculturalism fails here, then it will fail in the rest of the country. But truthfully, 90% of the time, it's working.

I have been following this discussion with interest, but have deliberately not commented so far as I felt that one more voice would only confuse things. I am impressed, as always, with your clarity, charity,and celerity of response.Maybe we could meet and talk about these things in one of Terry's other conferences.(I am not complainig about the wandering from topic, just that I think that it might be more fruitful.) any suggestions?

"one of Terry's other conferences". Hearing that warms my heart, feel free to wander about in them and stir things up. The "other conferences" are way too quiet.

For your reading pleasure: The nobler side of Scarlett O'Hara - the side the movie director did not want to confuse you with. Since most folks do not keep a copy of GWTW around, (like we all do JA), I put a few excerpts from the chapters between the news of the new taxes on tara and Scarlett's wedding to Mr. Kennedy on the spring. Now, I know these anotated excerpts are not the whole story on Scarlett - but they are part of it.

Kendall -- I must confess, I have about 3 ccs. of GWTW lying around! And I know that Vivien Leigh was really concerned that Selznick and Victor Fleming were portraying Scarlett as too much of the B word in the film.

Amy2-Supposedly, Vivien Leigh carried around her own, battered, dog-eared copy of GWTW at all times on the set, ready to due battle. She really fought to keep the "I'm glad Mother's not here" speech. And when George Cukor was fired, replaced by Fleming, she and Olivia De Havilland used to sneak over to Cukor's house and run their lines by him. I think they called him the woman's director. Just to keep this GWTW discussion going a bit longer, I'm just interested how you all feel about Melanie: too good-to-be true mealy-mouthed ninny who must have seen Scarlett's love for Ashley or a "Great lady" who was so full of honor, she could never see dishonour in any one she loved?? I admit I'm partial to the Rhett view(I'm sure you are not surprised). I love when Melly comes charging down the stairs, ready to run the Yankee soldier through if needed. Even Scarlett is impressed.

Another plug for Rhett: His love for not only his own daughter, but Wade Hampton Hamilton and Ella Lorena Kennedy...he becomes the father Wade never had, without attempting to overshadow the legend of Charles in the boy's mind...

Melanie and Scarlett: I read somewhere that Mitchell divided her favorite character from her short stories in two to get Melanie and Scarlett, and I sometimes think about dramatic presentations of split personalities with the strong, agressive 'member' desipising the milder, more moral 'member'. Melanie could not have survived as long as she did without Scarlett - and part of Scarlett's soul depended on Melanie's survival. I do not know much about the history of 'split-personality' theory and published studies. Could MM have been influenced by them or are the dramatists influenced by GWTW? I love the Melanie in the book - find the movie version tiresome.

Kali - I love Rhett - I want to shake both Scarletts - the one in the movie and the one in the book into a greater appreciation of the true worth of the people who adore her. Interesting that you mention the children. The movie makers wanted to write out all Scarlett's children - but decided to keep Bonny Blue because they were not sure they could make us love Rhett without his father role. The only point I to wanted to offer about Rhett was that he was a corrupting influence on Scarlett in comparison to Mr. Knightley who also loved a younger woman and used his influence to shore up her strengths rather than to expose her weaknesses. Yes, he adored the children and he appreciated Melanie and saved Ashley's life and loved Scarlett - although he went out of his way to hide that from her. For a war profiteer and a moral degenerate, he has am impressive record of virtues.

I have always considered Scarlett at fault for her failed relationship with Rhett. Rhett is certainly no Mr. Knightley...he is too jaded, and, eventually, too overcome by Scarlett's selfish willfulness to remain the vigilant father figure. True, he should have had more faith in her. He should have kept a more watchful eye on her activities. And he probably should have confronted her about her destructive, selfish tendencies more forcefully and more often. Still, it's important to note that Emma is muc more promising pupil than is Scarlett. Where Rhett might have been able to work wonders with someone like Emma, his experience with Scarlett produced only failure and broke his heart. Certainly, his inability to express his feelings is a failing, but it is one perpetuated by Scarlett's own inability to understand him, to reach out when he does extend himself, and to appreciate his commendable efforts. Rhett's goodness is lost on Scarlett anyway. She has a terrible habit of breaking nice guys to piece . Where Scarlett is is psychologically scarred early in life, Emma is redeemable. She is a spoilt child, to paraphrase Mr. Knightley (re: Anna Weston), who is redeemed not only through the benevolent efforts of a parent figure but through her own essentially good nature and sense. Emma is infinitely more circumspect, well-meaning, and thoughful of others than Scarlett. She means well, and has already reached maturity in so many respects. Scarlett, on the other hand, is the perpetually-delinquent child w o is so hard-headed and deficient of understanding that all outside attempts to break throught to her, it seems, are fruitless. Scarlett's epiphany cannot be falsely induced...her life must be ruined before she begins to understand the nature of her inadequacies. Even then, it seems that the scope of her realization reaches levels of understanding no higher than the immediate knowledge that she loves Rhett. I wonder, as does Rhett, if she is ever capable of selfless love and self-awareness.

Kali-I really enjoyed your comments on the Scarlett/Rhett relationship. And I agree with them. Again I too think-Rhett had it right-she is essentially a child whom he wanted to pet and spoil like Bonnie. BUt, the war had irrevocably scarred her, hardened her. She pushed him away again and again and he was afraid to show her how much he really loved her, knowing how she turned people's love against them, using it to her advantage. I also wonder if she is capable of self-knowledge. For me, Scarlett only values what she could lose(Tara) or has lost. She is the true Irish-the love of the fight, the struggle. She only really values Melanie at the end, comparing her to her mother. Likewise, even though she calls out for him after her miscarriage, she wants/needs Rhett the most when he too leaves. She's spurred on by the thought of going back to Tara, thinking of some way to get him back. Even AShley fits into this model. She wants him, ecause she can't have him. And when Melanie dies and, as Rhett would say, all of her dreams about Ashley suddenly appear to be coming true-she realizes she wants Rhett. Ashley was a schoolgirl's dream/crush.

It occurred to me that maybe the 'ships passing in the night' angle might apply to all of the Scarlett-Rhett relationship. He is well established in his amorality when he meets her and sees himself in her - rebellious, defiant, willing to defy hollow form to get what she wants. He wants to bring her all the way from the protection of "form for form's sake" to his way of thinking which he believes will be quite natural for her. But through Scarlett, he comes into contact with a better class of people than he is rebelling against - less hypocrisy and more real courage and honor than he had previously recognized in the world. So, even as he exerts his influence to corrupt Scarlett, he himself is absorbing the civilizing influence that she should be responding to in Melanie and the Meads and Mammy. Hence we see him moving away from his established immorality even as he moves her away from the last vestiges of her nominal morality. I think the scenes between the tax increases and Scarlett's second marriage are critical to the changes taking place in her. She is learning to believe that only money counts - and that the only way to be 'safe' is to have lots of money. She turns to Rhett as the one person whose survival instincts are as stong as her own, and he confirms her new obsession. It would have been a different story if HE had cared more about her and Melanie's welfare than his own hurt feelings - if HE had helped her look for alternatives to selling herself to 'save the farm' - if HE had already learned the lesson about 'not throwing the baby out with the bath water' and could have passed it on to her. Of course, we cannot change anything that is that critical to the development of the story.

I think that Rhett has always been aware of his good side, Katy...he's just never had reason to show it (at least to our knowledge). ;)

If he was aware that there were limits to how much he would fly in the face of decency, then he was irresponsible in not trying to help Scarlett see the limits as he encouraged her to stand up to the forms of 'decent society'. I prefer to think he had not reached his on 'moral bottom' yet, or he would have changed the tone of his tutoring. I usually skip the last third of the movie - and sometimes the last third of the book - it is too sad to see the results of Scarlett's commitment to money.

'Til the last year of the war, and later on the end of his marriage, his limits (on two different fronts) had not yet been tested. I think Rhett's pet peeve was hypocrisy, not morality. He didn't mind swindling swindlers, or thwarting the hubris of fools...but when it was obvious that good people would be directly suffering, Rhett always did what he could. When it was obvious that Scarlett's tendencies had made a permanent turn for the worse, he was obviously struggling with the pressure of it all - the drinking, the inability to face Scarlett straight, etc. By that time, he probably thought he was too late. And he was, really. I don't think Rhett meant to make her into a blackhearted rogue...he wanted her to be honest with herself and others.

Katy-I've never seen Rhett as Scarlett's tutor. Scarlett, from the beginning, is smart, willful, and very much her own woman. I especially love all of the passages in the book where Scarlett's(then Mrs KennedY) only confidant in her shrewd business dealings is Rhett. He listens to her, gives counsel if she wants it, and often compliments her. In effect, he's the only person who knows her and treats her as an equal. Old Frank just calls her "sugar" and hopes she will forget about the unlady like lumber bus ness when the baby comes. AS for Rhett being irresponsable in not setting limits for Scarlett and encouraging her to stand up to "decent society", I've always thought MM used Rhett to show some of the inherent hypocrisies in the Southern traditions/society(ie: confining women to their homes during pregnancies, confining them to black as widows). Rhett is very modern, open and while he may have tempted her with gifts and encouraged(even enjoyed) her behaviour-she accepted it. Her jubilant Oh yes I will when he pays for the priviled e of dancing with her is one of my favorite parts of the book/movie. Scarlett's her own woman. As Rhett said-they are a like-bad lots, but able to look things in the eye and call them for what they are.

Kal-Are you still here?

I'm here...I gotta edit some photos, but I'll be at Pemberly within the hour...

Great! I've got to write the second part of my Knightley story first. I agree about Rhett not being able to hurt anyone. His treatment of Melanie, even Ashley. He risks his own neck to save Ashley and Frank's lives for Melanie. And he tried again and again with Scarlett-she just kept pushing him away. AnThe good old ridicule/rejection theory-I agree with Katy-they were like ships in the night, never managing to connect.