And to think that this started out of a conversation in the "Motorcycles" conference about the Chevroler Suburban, which hardly ever sees any off-road use... To me, the three classic off-road vehicles are: Jeep, currently made by the Jeep-Eagle division of the Chrysler Corporation; Land Rover, currently made by the Rover subsidiary of BMW, and Land Cruiser, currently made by Toyota. Broncos and Jimmys and Suburbans don't cut it to me. A new classic, which came to us in almost exactly the same way the Jeep did, is the AM General Hummer. HWWMV is a lot harder to pronounce than GP, therefore Hummer doesn't sound as much like the original as Jeep does. And, of course, there's the Meyers Manx and its clones, which is to the other extreme of not deserving the title "Sport Utility Vehicle"; unlike the others, that have too little sport, the dune buggy has too little utility! But I STILL WANT ONE!!!

Chompf! I grab the bait.... By too little utility do you mean cargo considerations? I could agree there. But in terms of raw road capability in any weather, a well set up "buggy" is hard to beat for the money. See "US Special Forces".

Frank: By too little utility do you mean cargo considerations? Absolutely! The road capability is what I was talking of as the "sport" part... I'm sure that the Special Forces don't use their buggies to tow gun carriages, which can be done by Jeeps (in some cases). (BTW did you ever see the movie Nobody's Perfekt?)

Never saw the movie. Sam for years the SEALS & "others" have been using both Manx-type bodied buggies and Chenowth designed rail-type buggies with slightly juiced motors rigged with all kinds of ordnance, from 30cal. LAWs to 50cal longrange snipe guns, and rocket launchers. While specialized, these babies are constructed to be reliable above all rather than rods. In Desert Storm they went to some mid-engined configs for a little more stability. It's amazing what you can do with a well thought out rollcage While I can't carry a whole lot from Home Depot, I can carry 4 people and weekend gear in most any weather & road condition. No it's not a Jeep, but for the money it'll fool you.

In terms of cargo capability, how does it compare to the average car? (Nearly said "cage", forgot that I'm in the wrong conference for that!) Most SUV's have too much cargo capability to be really sporting. Anyway, the buggies have taken off-roading in a different direction from the usual SUVs. BTW, how many of those Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Lincoln and Mercedes-Benz SUVs will ever leave the pavement IYO?

The average car and SUV have more and better defined cargo capacity I guess. And these luxo-SUV's, you *know* they're always spotless and well-pampered, much like the owner! Off-road? Toooo scary! Parked next to a Lincoln Navigator Sunday doing some last minute shopping, an absolute monster! Owner came out, a guy about my age, looked decent, and asked me what the buggy was, he'd never seen anything like it! I briefly explained and said it was one of the cars that started the off-road-for-everybody fad he couldn't believe it was legit. Too naked & noisy, etc. I love it!

Why do folks like that buy SUVs anyway? How did the fad start? When did the Range Rover get a following? As far as I know, the Range Rover was built for British and colonial country gentlemen who wanted luxury cars that could actually get to their estate houses through the mud & pasture (or the Serengeti, as the case may be). When did Yuppies take an interest? I bet that guy in the Navigator never heard of Steve McQueen, either!

I'm buying a sport utility in January, should I get a Ford or the new Lincoln, or? or? Can I get some help making this decision?

Wot, given up on minivans? What do you need to do with the SUV? WHat kind of cargo are you moving, and over what terrain? THat's the kind of thing that determines whether you want a Sidekick or a Hummer (oh, yes, and price...) What good is a Mercury, Lincoln Oldsmobile, Acura, Lexus etc. etc. SUV anyway? Ret 'em! They're just luxurified versions of the lower priced models and aren't any better on or off road. Get the Ford or GMC or Toyota etc. versions. As for Honda/Acura, forget 'em completely and go Isuzu; except for the CR-V (which isn't much) Honda's SUVs are all Isuzus anyway (but Isuzu's minivan is a Honda, so...)

For "Ret 'em!" read "Rot 'em!"

Probably the Ford suv would be the best bet. This years or used? What are the pros and cons?

I don't have time at this moment terry but I'll be back. general budget's important. Check http://edmunds.com for wonderful comparison info on anything you're interested in. Kiplinger's financial magazine also has great info on leases vs. finance. etc.

A lot of folks never see a dirt road with these 'utes. I would. I live on a rough dirt road. Maybe folks just like the altitude they afford and getting to look down on everyone. What is the value of a sport 'ute? I guess they're pretty versatile; but at this stage I've always opted for a van because they seem even more versatile as far as seating and headroom and hauling capability. But then I've never owned a sports 'ute. There's a barrier here for me, somehow. In the back of my mind I feel cheated because I don't have one. And I lust whenever I see the Lincoln Navigator ad; seduced by Madison Avenues vision of luxury and ruggedness. I my heart, I feel like a Ford Sport 'ute would be the way to go, and not necessarily a brand new one. Continuing. I probably won't get a brand new one because of price. They're obscenely high priced. So why do people, mostly urban, yuppie cowboys, plop down this obscene cash? They're practical for hauling kids and building materials. They give you a feeling of power, they're gutsy. And many folks feel powerless in their daily routines. And they can at least feel powerful going to and from their jobs. Owning a van or station wagon is a symbol of middle aged mediocrity to some (not me). Everyone has fantasies about zooming off to the backwoods, whether they ever do or not is irrelevant, the feeling that you have a vehicle you could take off to the mountains in is comforting. They're seductive looking, the ads like the Lincoln Navigator play on this, the bulbous Mercedes falls in this category. And to top it all off, there's now a Lambourghini SUV, Car and Driver calls it the Rambo Lambo. Tops out at 150 mph. Ugly. Nasty. Beyond obscene. http://home.lamborghini.com/main/models/maps/LM_topmenu.map?82,16 So, now here's where I drag it to the mundane, what's best? And what year? Ford? Chevy? Dodge? or Jeep?

Navigators are all wrong for even rough roads. Mushy and bulky, they give the owner the ego-based perception that he "takes it all on". BTW, Ford will produce an even bigger monster next year than the Navigator or Suburban, just to say they have the Biggest! Most SUVs are modern-daystation wagons with a taller outview. And they work OK in the rougher (dirt) roads, but off-road/in-woods-rocks, forget it. The LM(?) was/is a limited product a few years ago, Lambo motor with someone's bodywork, called the Forza. Started at $70K, see them now in the papers every so often for $35K. A V12 in an offroader? Yeah *that* makes sense! Thanks for posting Terry.

what about the little toyota rav 4, or that teensie one by kia? (and please sir, please may i see the phony boswell stuff?)

The phony boswell stuff is in the internet conference.

"phoney boswell.."? The RAV is well built but has no rear-end protection and a weak motor. "Verge" magazine has a very nice comparison chart of all sizws/models of SUVs this issue, check it out.

boswell is a WELLbeing who is being impersonated by another WELLbeing on the Spring, if that makes any sense. Resume your normal Land Bruiser discussion.