Let's talk about attracting users, that seems to be relevant. We've tried everything. What should we try next?

Invitation seems to be the key to things. And also, marketing a community as a place to interact *intelligently* with other people of the same mindset, and not just another Usenet with a nicer interface.

Phrasing an invitation so that it isn't "spam" is the key here. Many people are offended at any kind of invitation from someone they may not know that well. We have a gargantuan mailing list but I'm reluctant to use in preference to inviting folks one on one. I just don't have enough time to spend online to get to know enough folks to get critical mass going. Perhaps concentrating on inviting an evangelical core group would help. It's a tough nut to crack, the critical mass thing. Even on Electric Minds with its mega-budget and luminary leadership and paid hosts, there are times when the critical mass consists of a small group of folks. And there are times of inactivity. A solid core group that really likes to talk seems to be very key to this.

Word of mouth is still the fastest way to spread the word. Online networking is the skill needed. I tell two, they each tell two and so on. Nothing is faster. There is a new conference just starting at CyberLyceum on commercial networking for money. Watch and see if they develop any secret techniques.

I'd absolutely agree about phrasing invitations correctly. It might be a good idea to particularly point out that a letter is NOT a canned one. I also think you have to invite the *right* people for the sort of place you want to develop. "A solid core group that really likes to talk" - see Howard Rheingold's book "The Virtual Community" about the Grateful Dead conference :)

With regards to the Critical Mass problem, I want to point out something that I've thought about Spring. Please don't take offence at this, because it's simply *my* thoughts. I personally think that there are too many conferences. I don't know how many conferences were opened by you, terry, but it seems that perhaps a couple of conferences should be opened, directing the flow of conversation, and then new ones added at the request of users. To have a lot of conferences seems to fragment people in to certain areas, none of which have that required mass of people to keep them active. New users see lots of inactive conferences/topics and think "oh, no activity here" and disappear. I think that the Ramble topics are *excellent* ideas, but the fact that they have around 400 articles in each, dating back to September of last year, seems to be overkill...time to retire and start a new topic, or at least archive some of the older responses. Oh well...just my thoughts...I'll be here for the flames :)

No flames from me. These are good ideas. I'm thinking about restructuring the conferences to a much smaller core group.

I think that would be an excellent idea. The conversation needs to be led, pushed forward and directed...that way people are conversing in just a few places. Once you reach the desired mass, you will automatically get "splinter groups" going off and asking for their own conferences.

I'll look into ways to "hide" some of the conferences and bring them out of hiding as we need them.

Well, why not just nuke them out? I'm sure there are some that haven't been active for months, and if you finally get groups of people asking for such a conference then they're going to want it to be "theirs", rather than someone else's recycled stuff

Good point. Which ones would you recommend to go first?

Let me have a look around...really just the old ones, the ones that haven't been active for *at least* a month. You don't want to go around killing conferences that people are still using :)

I'll see if Dave can concoct a "nuke" command, otherwise I have to go around and delete all the individual responses. What about grouping conferences like they do in Electric Minds? Maybe have four or five groups.

Hmm...can't say I've ever been a fan of the group method used on eMinds. It seems to confuse matters in a way that's unnecessary. One of the things I liked when I first came here was that I could have *instant* access to a list of all available conferences. Definitely wouldn't go with the group idea...but that's a personal view. I've also been thinking that perhaps people should be automatically "pushed" into the "Porch" conference. Such a conference is a good idea, as most V. Communities know, but I feel a lot of them miss the fact that new users quite possibly won't know/think about such a conference. If they're automatically subscribed - maybe even send the welcome topic to their screen automatically - then the "Porch" becomes more of a meeting place, from which people go off and explore, rather than just "another conference". Also, is there any way of seeing who is subscribing? It would be nice if a few of us went around welcoming new people, showing them the "Porch", helping them with any problems they're having - it's also a good way to get to know people and to get them to come back. This, I think, is a place where conferencing falls down as compared to real-time communities, in that people can feel very alone. Having "Guides" to help them may interest them in coming back. Of course, the advantage of such a guide in the case of async. conferencing is that the next time they come back, a) they know that someone they know will welcome them, and b) that welcoming person doesn't have to be *present* at that precise moment...*sigh* I love conferencing :))

Some very good thoughts, you can see a list of the participants in a given conference. Have you also noticed our new feature that lets you see the 5 most recent responses over the whole system? That can be seen you go to your own main menu. As far as pushing folks to gate, you actually crate your own confernce list and you go the various confernces according o the order you have listed the conferences in your conference list or cflist as it's called. I've just spent the entire day mowing my two acre yard, and I've seem many, many ant colonies go into major frenzies as my mower blades chrned through thei8r mounds. What a job! The grass had been getting really tall. Sometimes you just have to get "offline" to what they call the "real world". I've been getting so online addicted lately, I've got to do some getting back to nature and some socializing (offline). Good thoughts and I appreciate them. Hopefully we can turn them into action.

Here are some practical ideas from Jacques Yerby, who is featured on our front page. Topic 120: Comments on the Durand Offer #347 of 351: Jacking In from the Geek Port (jyerby) Tue 08 Jul '97 (06:02 PM) Re all the "doesn't run on my platform bruhaha" Bru haha? Hahaha! Sorry -- Firesign Theater. Anyway the Well has successfully integrated Engaged and Pico (read telnet). There's no reason why (as the development goes on) we could not have options for different levels of user. Someone complained about email in/out, but I see it as an enormous opportunity to add to the community. At one end we have the community database, at the other: 1. Telnet/pico style access. 2. Lynx level access 3. Dumb graphic browser access 4. Cutting edge browser access 5. Listserv so 'none of the above' can also partici- pate. It's not every day you get to start from the 'ground' up. If this works out, I'm sure Durand would also get a stage one solid rocket booster push out of this. Topic 120: Comments on the Durand Offer #348 of 351: Jacking in From the Moneygrubbing Port (jyerby) Tue 08 Jul '97 (06:08 PM) Re the MONEY. Even as an unemployed geek living next to the beach in Hawaii, I could afford $3/mo. OTOH, this community gains most of its appeal for me because of all the overseas members. Assuming they CAN afford to pay, the currency change problem can get very ugly. We would probably lose some valuable members who just can't afford to be here. If money becomes an issue down the road, we should determine some way to offer "scholarships" to people we value in the community. Feel free to crosspost these last two to (im)pertinent topics and to Utne and Durand should you so desire.

Hmmm...strange you should mention slipping into the "Real World", as that's where I've been hiding for the past couple of three days :) I slipped out to take my girlfriend to work, and stayed away for ages...that never happened before :) Anyhows, I'm back now - run for your lives! :) I've been thinking about how to attract more people, and indeed more of the "right" people. It seems to me that many places on the net have to have an inherent "value" if people are to be enticed in: this value can be given by a good review somewhere, word of mouth, or by actually putting a price on entrance. If that price is low enough so that people can easily afford it, a greater value is attached - I belive - to being a member. People are here because they are making a definite choice to BE here, and there are less people "idling", simply because the bills clock up in the background. I am not averse to paying a reasonable amount - preferably a flat charge every month. You could cut a lot of the hassle out of collecting payments from around the globe by using "First Virtual" bank accounts, which are totally net-based. Anyway, sorry I've been away for so long....when are you going to bring some more people into this topic...? :) ~M

The issue of charging folks is interesting. We hadn't considered that as I'd like to not prevent anyone from coming here. The key is going to be effective PR, links from other sites, and a grass roots movement in the Austin, Texas area where the Spring is flesh based. Keep the suggestions coming, we'll follow up on as many of them as we can.

O.K. First conference to kill: nh - "native american health issues" etc. wtf?! 1 Topic, 1 response.... ~M

I just started that at the request of someone. What we need to do is separate out the special interest and lesser used conferences in another area. We set up a lot of conferences for folks on request, like the ones we just set up called 'bronte' and 'medieval'. I'll ask Dave if there's something we can do in software, in Yapp, to handle this. Good suggestions.

One other thing that I think is missing, either due to YAPP or just due to lack of time or something, is on-line biog-s. I know that many people have homepages etc. to tell people about themselves (I certainly do), but I just feel that on-line biog-s give conferencees instant access to the people they're conversing with. Any chance of getting it in?

There's a great idea, I'll talk to Dave Thaler about implementing this.

I really think we need to attract more people into this topic, Paul. How about inviting people specifically from eMinds/Utne to here. I can't do that personally, as my browser(s) have problems with both sites (too complicated for their own good - they should use YAPP, it's much better :) Anyway, that's it for now...I'll drop more ideas when they occur.

You'll get flamed at any overt attempt to invite folks from those places to here. But if you invite individuals on an individual basis who you feel would like this kind of backwater community, then do by all means.

Mike: If you know anyone on-line who is interested in the Brontes, please invite them here by all means! The more the merrier!

Amy, are you asking the Bronte websites elsewhere to link to here? By the way, bravo for you efforts Amy!

Yeah...I've been thinking about the Bronte conf./topic myself. I almost wish I was interested in the subject, as it's a rather busy place :) Nice to see you here, Amy. Have you been here all along, just listening in, or are you a new contributor? Finally, as you seem to have missed, I don't actually *have* access to either eMinds or Utne from my home - it's up to *you* guys :) And yes, I was thinking of the invites being directed to specific people, not just posted in various topics :))

OK this follows on from what I've just written in Porch.9 about a new conference. It was a suggestion that we have a Parenting conference, an idea brought about a) by my knowledge of Parenting on the WELL and b) the fact that my sister has just become a parent :) It occurred to me, however, that such a conference would die a death similar to most on the Spring because it has been approached the wrong way round. In all areas on community there has to be *need* for such a thing. Demand must outstrip supply, otherwise there is no enthusiasm. Here, on the Spring, we have an excellent conferencing system, lots of interesting areas to discuss and.....very few active conferencees :/ oh *sigh*...I love this place so much, why can't we make it busier?! I'm trying to get all of my friends to come along, but they don't seem to want to stay or even say anything...it's very disheartening... I vote we charge for access :)

We're gonna get traffic pretty soon because I know some folks that are gonna help. And there's already a parenting conference. Use it. Invite others to use it. I'll figure out a way to give the "appearance" of a few core conferences.

******************************************************************** TWO SIDES OF COMMUNITIES I've spent the last week or so driving around the North of Ireland. First in Donegal and then in Derry, Antrim, Armagh, Tyrone. For those of you unaware of Irish geography, the latter four counties are in Northern Ireland. The northern coast of Ireland is rugged and beautiful. Donegal has its many mountains that overlook the sea and Antrim has the Giant's Causeway, a truly amazing pattern of hexagonal rocks that rise and fall in step formation. A thing that struck me as we drove was how much physical space there is around us. Ireland is a small country but it would take a long time to visit every town and village, to drive up every mountain pass, to walk on every beach. (If cyberspace ends up being anywhere as large as physical space�) The subject of communities is a primary focus of mine. Come to Ireland and you will see lots of teenagers wearing Nike and adidas gear. Visit Kildare and Galway over the next month and you are likely to see far more wearing Kildare and Galway gear as the two counties prepare for the All-Ireland Football Final in September. Both teams have not been in an All-Ireland Final for many a year, and the feeling in each county is quite electric. People believe in their locality in a very intense way in this country. As I drove through Northern Ireland I could feel the loyalty to the locality. I could also see it hanging from telephone and electricity masts, as Union Jacks and Tricolours marked out the territory. In some villages there was an intense quantity of flowers, cramming the edges of the roadway, hanging on every wall. "Ulster in bloom" one of the banners read. We passed by Portadown where the Orange Order are still demanding to march down through a nationalist estate. We came near Omagh, a place of awful tragedy some weeks back where 28 innocent people were killed by a dissident Republican bomb. During the week I caught the latter part of a Disney documentary on Irish America. People talked about the strength of the Irish communities there and how they began to dissolve as the Irish moved higher up society. One commented that Irish-American communities often defined themselves as much by their enemies and by what they opposed as by anything else. In my research about communities I have found that people rarely like to see their communities as exclusionist. They paint all the positive pictures. Indeed, there are many positive things about communities and that is why they are seen as a necessary development for the Internet. Ireland is a genuinely friendly place and Irish people will often go out of their way to help you. Ireland under the surface can be a very scary place. We hold grudges. We sleep with history. We bide our time. Ireland is changing too, and the recent referendum resulted in an overwhelming vote for peace. Communities are complex, difficult things. They take time to grow and are slow to change. What makes them strong can make them scary to the outsider or to the member who wishes to be different. Those who seek to work with "online communities" need to understand that they will not be easily packaged into three-year business plans. Gerry McGovern gerry@nua.ie ******************************************************************** If you have enjoyed New Thinking, please consider telling somebody else about it. ******************************************************************** For New thinking archives, please go to: http://www.nua.ie/newthinking/archives/index.html ********************************************************************

That was a nice bit. How does it relate to the topic?

Now I'm the one confused. Please elaborate on your question...

What I'm trying to say is that I do not understand how pastoral Ireland relates to a virtual community. Maybe I'm missing something.

we are incorporating ideals from pastoral Ireland into this community all the time. you'd be surprised how many of us have an undue fascination with sheep and grass!

Indeed I would.

What do you do? Count the sheep and smoke the grass?

Or do you do something else to the sheep, while smoking the grass?

actually, the vegetarians eat the grass and all the normal people eat the sheep...

Uh OH Something is making sense here.

after the veggie-grazers have cleared a bit of land I am gonna plant root crops to go with those sheep. Mint, too. Make this mutton as edible as possible. May I also plant Rosemary? Works great with mutton...

works great with rum cakes too!

Oooh, did not know that...hmmm...thanks!

hmmmm