The Japanese, rebuilt, became an economic powerhouse, and a key player in the world economy. This was the way that the Brigate Rosse terrorists in Italy where defeated as well. And did you know that Baywatch is the number 1 TV show in Iran? Unfortunately, the world has not acted on this before and now things have gone too far. Their Muslim radical power works on the poor because religion thrives in poor countries. The Jihad has started. I only pray that no atomic bombs will be used from either side.

If it is stashed away in Swiss bank accounts, I'm not holding my breath that it can be found and confiscated any time soon. It is different now. There no longer is secrecy in Swiss banking.

ROTFLMAO Moon.....Baywatch is the Number 1 rated program in Iran ? Are you serious ? Yikes, I bet the late Ayatollah Khomeni is just thrilled to bits, not to mention David Hasslehoff....LOL Thanks for that Moon, I needed a good laugh after this weeks trauma. By the way, what are #2 and #3 Three's Company and Charlie's Angels ?

I have never experienced such a massive show of patriotism as I have in the last few days. Last week, I admit that I would have passed many American flags with my thoughts absorbed in something else, never really and truly acknowledging the stars and stripes and for what that flag stands for. Somehow, in times past, the word "patriotism" has always rattled a little nerve in the "government-is-out-to-get-us" leftist side of me. Today, though, I am beginning to look at that flag and the word "patriotism" in a different light. Don't get me wrong - I'll still be looking over my shoulder, but, I am feeling a great sense of togetherness with this "patriotism" attitude. It is only saddening to realize what it has taken to get me to this place.

http://pain.outloud.org/gary/thankyou/ These are photos from around the world of people stopping and praying, lighting candles, etc. big page but worth the wait time. There's a photo of Arafat giving blood. And this link is to a Yahoo! "slide show" of 20+ photos of newspaper front pages from around the world after the attack. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?p=news&g=events/ts/091201newspapers&e=1&tmpl=sl&nosum=0&large=0?tamp=1000366704",610,580); This was an attack on the world trade center and it was an attack on the world, that building housed so many nationalities and religious types, I'd like to see a breakdown. BBC morning news reports that Pakistan is not going to allow an assault from bases in their country, we'll have to stage from India? Or Dushanbe? The Russians may be advising us on how to invade Afghanistan, do you see the irony in this? We're going to need a multi-faceting approach with not only air strikes but covert activity and ground troops. And at the same tiem we're going to have to bolster our homeland defense, unlike the Gulf War where there were only air strikes and no danger at home.

Pakistan won't allow flights originating from their land but they'll most likely allow flyovers. The European community may offer some support but not likely overwhelming, though I'm comforted by Tony Blair's statements and actions, they've been courageous. Russia and India will be our staunchest allies. Need a million or so soldiers? India has 'em and would probably put them out on to the battlefield. An alliance with Russia will minimize China overnight. I just hope I'm wrong about lukewarm Euro participation. This is the first war of this century in a millenium that started out looking like it would belong to China and Asia. Now that balance may be changing and it will become the century of global, English speaking democracies lead by America, India, Canada, UK, Australia, and New Zealand. This may have the effect of changing the balance of power for a century to come. We're lost the symbol of our Western global economy, but in the processed it's galvanized the global English speaking democracies in a way we would never have done spontaneously. Think about this in your little cave, Osama. Think about a wealthy, technologically advanced, English speaking India ruling the region. Think about about a total global power change that will transform tragedy in to a brighter future for all mankind. India and Russia may need this kind of power boost from the US, they're struggling and they need to be galvanized and energized in the direction of becoming sane, technologically advanced democracies.

"English" is not the tie that binds when it comes to India's involvement.

Tha Russians did rather poorly in Afghanistan and I doubt that India would would be heavily involved. I would like to see what those tradionally "leftist" European countries do.

As for the lukewarm European leaders' response, didn't they learn from the 1930's that appeasement did not change any outcome?

Karen is right. If India joins this, it will probably be for Hindu revenge against the Muslims.

FBI Press Response September 14, 2001 Washington D.C. FBI National Press Office The following is a list of the nineteen (19) individuals who have been identified as hijackers aboard the four airliners that crashed on September 11, 2001, into the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center in New York, the Pentagon, and Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania. Information listed for each hijacker differs, but may include date of birth, address provided, or visa status. This is the extent of the information available at this time. The FBI requests that anyone who may have information about these individuals-even though they are presumed to be dead- to immediately contact an FBI filed office or call the toll-free hotline at 1-866-483-5137. American Airlines #77 Boeing 757 8:10 am departed Washington Dulles for Los Angeles 9:39 am crashed into the Pentagon 1) Khalid Al-Midhar - Possible residence (s) : San Diego, California and New York, New York; Visa Status: B-1 Visa, but B-2 Visa had expired. 2) Majed Moqed - No information available. 3) Nawaq Alhamzi - Possible residence (s) : Fort Lee, New Jersey and Wayne, New Jersey and San Diego, California. 4) Salem Alhamzi - Possible residence (s) : Fort Lee, New Jersey, and Wayne, New Jersey. 5) Hani Hanjour - Possible residence (s) : Phoenix, Arizona and San Diego, California. Believed to be a pilot. American Airlines #11 Boeing 767 7:45 am departed Boston for Los Angeles 8:45 am crashed into North Tower of the World Trade Center 1) Satam Al Suqami - Date of birth used: June 28, 1976; Last known address: United Arab Emirates. 2) Waleed M. Alshehri - Dates of birth used: September 13, 1974/January 1, 1976/ March 3, 1976/ July 8, 1977/ December 20, 1978/ May 11, 1979/ November 5, 1979; Possible residence (s) : Hollywood, Florida/ Orlando, Florida/ Daytona Beach, Florida; Believed to be a pilot. 3) Wail Alshehri - Date of birth used: July 31, 1973; Possible residence (s) 4) Mohamed Atta - Date of birth used: September 1, 1968; Possible residence (s) : Hollywood, Florida/ Coral Springs, Florida/ Hamburg, Germany; Believed to be a pilot. 5) Abdulaziz Alomari - Date of birth used: December 24, 1972 and May 28, 1979; Possible residence: Hollywood, Florida; Believed to be a pilot. United Airlines #175 Boeing 767 7:58 am departed Boston for Los Angeles 9:05 am crashed into South Tower of the World Trade Center 1) Marwan Al-Shehhi - Date of birth used: May 9, 1978; Possible residence: Hollywood, Florida; Visa Status: B-2 Visa; Believed to be a pilot. 2) Fayez Ahmed - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida. 3) Ahmed Alghamdi - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida. 4) Hamza Alghamdi - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida. 5) Mohald Alshehri - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida. United Airlines #93 Boeing 757 8:01 am departed Newark, New Jersey, for San Francisco 10:10 am crashed in Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania 1) Saeed Alghamdi - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida. 2) Ahmed Alhaznawi - Date of birth used: October 11, 1980; Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida. 3) Ahmed Alnami - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida. 4) Ziad Jarrahi - Believed to be a pilot. Topic 14 [attack]: Events of Sept 11, 2001 #54 of 65: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri Sep 14 '01 (21:26) 85 lines *Every Time I Hear "A New Era for Humanity" Announced, I Really Have to Wonder If It Can Last Even Six Months *8-/ Subject: Yann Moix: A New Era for Humanity Date: Friday, September 14, 2001 11:52 AM From: Patrice Riemens Reply-To: Patrice Riemens To: A New Era for Humanity by Yann Moix Liberation (Paris), September 14, 2001 original in French at http://www.liberation.com/ny2001/actu/20010914venze.html Bingo, folks! The World will never go at war again, and yet it will be at war always, period. War and non-war, there shall be no difference any more. From the 11th of September 2001, all will be war, even peace. Peace shall no longer be the opposite of war, but its context, its natural environment, its ecosystem, its scene, its background, its screen-saver. War and peace shall no longer be each others contraries (that was in the good old manichean East vs West times), but they shall be imbricated the one in the other, like the two connected faces of the same reality. Peace shall be a kind of specific sub-case of war. War shall henceforth be everywhere and nowhere. War shall be waged in the dustbins of the Paris railtermini, war shall be waged above our heads in the air of the metropolises. War shall be permanent. War shall be open for business 24/24, 7/7 , just like CNN. There shall be intermissions, but no reprieve. It shall be a war blind, yet precise, fuzzy, yet targeted. Because never before has the distortion been so stark between fuziness of the causes and the acuurateness of the strikes. The First HyperWorldWar has started. It is a war where all pretenses will fly, and where acts will be used as statements of purpose afterwards. Let's call this a hyperwar: a world where the ordinary, natural context of societies is no longer peace, but war. A hyperwar is not a classic world war with opposite fighting sides. It is a 'non-Euclydian', non-catalogised war, without rules and principles others than its own logic. Hyperwar cannot be localised in space. Nor in time. It is a kind of magnum opus of terrorism,its _best of_ or rather its _worst of_: plane hijacks, crashes, bombs, kamikaze operations. In fact it was the 20th century as a whole that was fast-forwarded in just a couple of minutes on the 11th of September, 2001. And that will be the birth certificate of the 21st Century, like (the 31st of July) 1914 was it for the 20th. But it are no longer states which are waging war, but wars that are making states. But then, unheard of sort of states: non-nation-states, states without teritorry, without citizens or borders, without (elected) governements, nay, these are virtual states, scattered war-states, fuzzy, networked octopus-states, community-states whose only borders are ideological. These states, just like virusses, evolve, adjust, mutate, invent and reinvent themselves everyday. Sometimes, their size is reduced to that of a lone individual who is an ideology, an army, a clear and present danger all unto himself. And a walking bomb. After the era of the statesmen comes the era of the state-men. The political state has become undistinguishable from the biological state. Over these past days, we have been bombarded with the metaphor of Pearl Harbour: nothing could be further from the truth. Pearl Harbour was an episode within a war. The 11th of september was the definition of an other type of war, the starting point for a new era in human history. The human element is now being affected all over the planet, since hyperwars feeds itself on the psychoses it creates by the permanent menace it exerts on all. Psychosis has become the continuation of war by other means. It gnaws at the individual, it eats up her/his mind, it shatters her/his rational structure. It is a war on the 'may be/ may be not' mode, whereby the horror is mainly a potential one. And thus, it is a war that may have a beginning, but no end. Hyperwar is built for the long run. It thrives in totality, that of the universe and of eternity. (Halelujah! - tr -) (Q&D translation by yours truly) Reposted without permission whatsoever # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo@bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net

The Tamil Tigers in India have caused thousands of deaths because of terrorist attacks. As you see this is truly a Holy War. Those "leftist" European Countries have lost their religion and have become homocentric. There is -0 population growth because young couples even if they bother to get married are not interested in having children. They prefer the material to the spiritual. It will be interesting to see what kind of allegiance those countries give the US.

Just heard Netenyahu (sp?) on Fox. He made a good point. The reporter tried to make a comparison between the communists and the terriorists with regard to nuclear weapons. He said that was incorrect. He said the communists put their lives above their ideology. These people put their ideology above their lives.

A chronology of strikes by Laden on US interests NEERAJ SAXENA TIMES OF INDIA NEWS NETWORK NEW DELHI: A glance at the chronology of terrorist attacks made on the US in the past one decade would indicate that the destiny of the US and its one- time bete noire Osama bin Laden have almost become inextricable. If the US is to be believed, almost all the attacks have been carried out or aided by bin Laden. However, the US has been harsh with its usual suspect just once. The missile attacks on his safe haven in Afghanistan and Sudanese factory was the only time when the US displayed its military might in retaliation. In 1996, former President Bill Clinton had even signed a secret order that authorised the CIA to use any and all means to destroy Laden's network, but the world's most powerful state has not been able to ensure this. In August, 1996, a secret grand jury investigation began against bin Laden in New York. He was quick to sign and issue a declaration of jihad on August 23 against the US and UAE, outlining his organisation's goals. CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS December 29, 1992: A bomb exploded in a hotel in Aden, Yemen, where the US troops had been staying while en route to a humanitarian mission in Somalia against guerilla leader Muhammed Aidid. The blast killed two Austrian tourists as the US soldiers had already left. RESPONSE: Two Yemeni Muslim militants, trained in Afghanistan and injured in the blast, arrested later. US intelligence agencies said this was the first terrorist attack involving bin Laden. February 26, 1993: A car bomb went off in the basement parking of the now fallen World Trade Centre, killing six people and injuring over 1,000. RESPONSE: Six accused, including the mastermind and confidante of Laden -- Ramzi Yousef -- sentenced to 240 years in prison for the bombing, for plotting to destroy WTC, the UN headquarters and to plant bombs on airliners flying out of the east coast. Ramzi was extradited from Pakistan and had close links with Laden according to the US. October 3, 1993: Eighteen US troops killed in a guerilla attack in Mogadishu, Somalia. American law enforcement, intelligence and national security officials are divided as to whether, as a Federal indictment charges, bin Laden and his associates trained and armed Somalia warlord Aidid's men. RESPONSE: Over 300 rebels claimed to have been killed by the US Rangers. April 19, 1995: A US government establishment in Oklahoma city bombed by an explosives laden truck parked in the car park of Alfred P Murrah building, killing 168 people, and wounding over 500. RESPONSE: Initially, the US suspected Osama bin Laden to be behind the bombing, but a 27-year-old misguided youth Timothy McVeigh was captured later, convicted and later executed. A key witness Terry Nichols sentenced for life. November 13, 1995: Five Americans and two Indians killed in the truck bombing of a US-operated Saudi National Guard training center in Riyadh. RESPONSE: The US accuses bin Laden. He denies involvement, but praises the attack. June 25, 1996: A large truck bomb devastates the US military residence in Dhahran called Khobar Towers, killing 19 servicemen. RESPONSE: The US military initially Laden had a hand in the attack, but now believes that a Saudi Shiite group was responsible. But US investigators still believe Bin Laden was somehow involved. August 7, 1998: US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania bombed by a suicide bomber, killing over 230 people and leaving over 4,500 injured. RESPONSE: US retaliates swiftly on August 20 by firing 70-80 `Tomahawk' Cruise missiles at alleged terrorist training camps in Khost, Afghanistan and the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan saying it was a chemical weapons factory. Several of Osama Bin Laden's alleged co- conspirators put behind bars in the US. October 12, 2000: A small dinghy laden with explosives rammed into US warship USS Cole in Aden Harbour, Yemen, killing 17 US sailors and injuring 39 others. RESPONSE: Besides blaming Laden, the US has not done much by the way of a retaliation so far.

335 newspaper front pages -- 189 from the day after the attack and 146 extra editions published on the day of the hijackings. http://www.poynter.org/index.cfm

On the topic of bin Laden's money, Forbes has some info: http://www.forbes.com/2001/09/14/0914ladenmoney.html Highlights: Although bin Laden's been kicked out of Saudi Arabia and his citizenship revoked, much of his money is 'tied up in businesses' in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. He also has access to 'charitable foundations,' not named, that are 'unregulated and untaxed.' Following a description of the abject poverty of Afghanistan, it talks about how bin Laden and other expatriate Saudis live there and pay 'a lot of rent.' You can afford a private army for $35,000 a month as you don't have to pay people much. Money is transferred from country to country via an informal network called "Hundi," basically just individuals transferring money among themselves. Very difficult to track.

We could probably solve the airline hijack issue with the installation of an "auto lander" which could over ride the pilots and land the plane if it deviated off course and the pilots did not respond with a password or other test. The airline doors need to be strengthened and pilots shouldn't be able to open them during flight, and anyone on the passenger side of the door or doors (two or three makes more sense) would absolutely be unable to penetrate them. The problem is solvable. But there are so many other unsolved procedures we need to put in place for so many as yet undreamed of scenarios.

From http://www.janes.com, a global security website, has issued a list of the places that are known to have involvement with Al-Qaeda, bin Laden's organization Algeria Egypt, Morocco Turkey Jordan Tajikistan Uzbekistan Syria Xinjiang in China Pakistan Bangladesh Malaysia Myanmar Indonesia Mindanao in the Philippines Lebanon Iraq Saudi Arabia Kuwait Bahrain Yemen, Libya Tunisia Bosnia Kosovo Chechnya Dagestan Kashmir Sudan, Somalia Kenya Tanzania Azerbaijan Eritrea Uganda Ethiopia The West Bank and Gaza.

Correct me if I am under a misconception, but do we not worship the same GOD ultimately? How can they call it a Holy War and worship God? I have a copy of the Q'ran and it says nothing of the kind they are espousing. It is an excuse for greed and warped minds in which to find reason for their vengeance.

it is just like anything else, cultish behavior brainwashing persons wishing to belong to anything. islam is a peaceful religion. i was told that the women wear the abayaah to protect themselves from being leered at by men. when they are home, the abayaah is removed. much like the latino community, arabians are family oriented and often house extended families. at no time did i feel like i was a piece of garbage while in Kuwait. the stares that i received were because i am different from what they are used to seeing. men and women of all walks live and work there. these people are just like us, have the same concerns as we do. i witnessed one father rewarding his child for a job well done at school. so please, do not assume that the arabian community is strange and should be feared. there are radicals in all communities, look at the guy in montana, he was american! look at the KKK, hello, people! sadly, there are scams out there to get your money all in the name of this tragedy. do not give to these telemarketers because there is no campaign to gain donations this way. something interesting: the taliban first mumbled that this was terrible, then pleaded that we do not bomb this poor country, then threatening surrounding neighbors that if they support the U.S., they will be attacked by holy warriors.

but do we not worship the same GOD ultimately? You must go back to the Crusades, Marcia to get your answer. i was told that the women wear the abayaah to protect themselves from being leered at by men. Women are barely seen in the streets. They are second class citizens if at all. A western woman respectfully travelling in those countries (as I have found myslf on occassion), better not get the urge to go to the bathroom outside their hotel.

The assassination of Massoud was no coincidence. It was most likely a signature attack by Bin Laden to eliminate Afghanistan's greatest anti-Taliban fighter. He was killed by explosives hidden in a belt or camera the day before the WTC attack. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/15/international/asia/15MASS.html http://frontierpost.com.pk/main.asp?id=8&date1=9/15/2001 I'm unclear if Pakistan will or will not allow us to use their country as a staging area. If someone hears about this will they post it here? GERMAN OFFICIALS have asked the FBI and the Securities and Exchange Commission to look into whether bin Laden�s associates may have �sold short� stock in a Munich, Germany, company that holds secondary insurance on the World Trade Center. http://www.msnbc.com/news/629380.asp The stock market will open at 9:30 pm EST on Monday. Biggest losers: airline stocks Biggest winners: military, cellular, security, tech stocks Other big losers: insurance stocks, hotels Other winners: teleconferencing systems, construction companies, fractional aircraft. Ramzi Yusef, architect of first World Trade Center bombing, carried plans for airliner suicide crashes: http://www.worldtribune.com/wta/Archive-2001/me_terrorism_09_13.html

I slipped with Moon.

in case there is any confusion, i was told by a kuwaiti man why the women wear an abaayah. yes, there are countries in which arabian women are treated as third-class citizens. but, it was witnessed by me, women were treated with respect, no walking 6-ft behind the man or anything. they drove, ran businesses, walked with their similarily clad men, wearing gold jewelry, etc. i can only relay what i saw in kuwait. these men wait until they are well into their 30's before marrying in order to prove that they are worthy of a wife, to care for her financially and whatever children they have. one arabian man said it clearly, the Koran (sp?) condemns behavior such as this. the muslim community needs to stand up to bin laden and use the word to show him as being wrong. several islamic people were interviewed and again reiterated that the Koran doesn't suggest anything of this nature. in fact, the Koran refers to all religions, christianity and judaism, not as being infidels, but as those included in the book, and infidels being those who do not believe at all (athiests). bin laden may see this as a holy war, but, it is not, because the religion he proclaims to be an interpretor of, would not allow this. again, it's based on perception. another thing i find interesting is that all the time, we are referred to as the devil, evil, etc. isn't that what we're doing? the deed was evil but we cannot condemn a whole peoples because of that. yes, i believe the guilty should and will pay. and so, i pray that the countries vowing support and our country do not do anything irrationally. that we think through whatever our actions may be. yes, we are angry, that is a step in grief, but let us take our time and move through this. anyway, who am i to say anything..... i think this discussion is healthy. *HUGS* to all!!!

oh yeah, this may be the least of their worries right now, but....has anyone started piling up the mass of paper that flew out of the WTC? i wonder if any of the accounts and such could be put back together with what was left of that? and, how come the paper didn't incinerate?

Totally changing the subject for a sec.....I saw on CNN yesterday that the major US airlines lost $300 million per day, when they were grounded for 3 days. I am puzzled by this. I can understand why they may lose money in future, from a drop off in bookings. But surely every person who booked a flight from Sep 11-13, would have paid for it in advance. Who here of us, goes some where with out having booked and paid for it weeks, if not months in advance ? So wouldn't the airlines have the money from all those grounded flights, already in the bank ? I can see where they would lose money from the refunds they gave some people. But news reports showed most people waiting the delay out and not getting refunds. So where did this $300 million loss come from ? Sorry if I sound mercenary and trivial. I am the daughter of an airline man, so I suppose curiosity about them, is in my blood.

Hugs to both Wolfie and Moon. You are both right. I just talked to a close friend who is Lebanese Muslim. She says depending on your sect, the rules vary as does status in the community make for variations. You also don't show the soles of your feet and you do not eat with your right hand....they do not shake hands - you wipe off human waste with that hand... and on and on. We need no acrimony....we are dealing with people who do not even understand each other!

The losses were not from this week's flights. The airlines have already received most of the money for this week's tickets. But they also sell tickets on a daily basis for next week, next month, next year, etc. Apparently they would have sold $300M worth of these tickets per day. Because of the crisis, they could not, because they did not know when, or if, they would be able to fly again. Even now that flights have resumed, they apparently anticipate a substantial reduction in the number of tickets sold, due to fear of flying, longer delays at airports due to security, etc. From now on, it's going to be an uphill battle to sell tickets to people who don't "need" to fly. This is why they expect to lose a lot of money. They still have the same number of planes to pay for, airport lease facilities to pay for, etc. So--the same fixed expenditures going out with much less in ticket sales coming in. The only "flexible" spending they have in the short run is employees, so they have to lay people off. And they were already hurting big time from the increase in fuel prices. Not many glimmers of hope for them.

Kuwait is not Afghanistan. Kuwait does not have a fundamentalist theocracy. Afghani Muslims are not Arabs. Perhaps you're not aware of what the Taliban has done to women since taking over there. I believe I've heard that 60% of the airlines costs are fixed (paid out regardless of whether they fly or not). As you must be aware, the airlines don't make any money on those tickets to poor idiots like us, who get discounted fares. The full-fare tickets for business flyers subsidize the rest of us. *HUGS* to all!!!

Thanks Karen and yes, we are not dealing with an easy problem. I had one guy IM me today he was so angry he just tore up a remote highway at 100 mph (yeah, in the Cobra) We need to bond not feud and if we do not hug one another, we are doomed. "Group Hug" sounds so foolish but I think it is warranted. *HUGS TO ALL*, as Karen put it so well!

For those of you who hear of phophesies, please look at this page before leaping onto the pyre: http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/predict.htm

The full plan: 1. Destroy the World's Financial hub (succeeded beyond wildest dreams of terrorists) 2. Take out the military center of the US (very partial success) 3. Take out the President or Congress (failed) Good thing they only partially succeeded, if they had gone 3 for 3 we'd be in very, very serious trouble right now. This is not World War III, not yet anyway. This is about a band of criminals who are holding a decimated country in fear and trembling. The link for the Canada piece that Alice, my sister, sent me is http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/schools/rta/ccf/personal/hof/sincla_g.html Gordon Sinclair wrote it, he died in 1984, the piece was written in '73 and was inspired by the criticism of America during the Vietnam era. I'll send this to my sister so she understands the context. It's in very wide circulation. From what I've read, I think the best approach would be to work cooperatively with the Afghan resistance and with India/Pakistan against the Taliban, one which allow a democratic state to emerge comprised of native Afghans.

slippage again.

Gee thanks CNN, the whereabouts of Britany Spears is foremost in my thoughts these days. CNN has a news ticker across the bottom of their screen and it is all really serious stuff...Bush speech extracts, Talaban declarations, death toll estimates, etc etc Then all of a sudden this appears...." Pop Princess Britany Spears is stranded in Australia, due to the FAA ban on all international flights. She has cancelled all her European engagements at this time. " I mean hello CNN.....who gives a rats a$$ ? By the way, what is this about a ban on incoming international flights ? It's the first I have heard of it ? Is it true, or did I read the ticker thingy wrong ? I guess I was just distracted by the plight of poor lil' Britany....LOL

1. Destroy world's financial hub ( suceeded beyond wildest dreams ) Did they really ? A lot of companies have ( in a purely logistical sense ) been put to a lot of expense and inconvenience. But has the world's financial hub really been destroyed ? Several buildings have gone down, but the infrastructure remains intact, bruised and bloody to be sure, but still intact. New York is one huge financial colossus, it is a many headed beast, with many, many tentacles. As devestating as the loss of the WTC is ( in human and monetary terms ). It is just one of these heads, the main body of the beast remains alive. ( Sorry, didn't mean to make that sound like something from a horror flick. ) As an example, the HQ of American Express were in Tower #1. They occupied 1 million sq ft of office space on many floors. However, they ( bless 'em ) took their butts across the river to temporary quarters in Jersey City. They now expect to be up and running ( at granted, very limited capacity, for now ) by Monday.

It would have been more appropriate to say the world's financial *symbol* has been erased, we will remain strong as an economy. The 1-2-3 knockout would have been devastating had it succeeded, knocking out the White House would have pretty demoralizing on top of the World Trade. I'm glad those heroic passengers took action.

Yup Terry, spot on....devestating doesn't even begin to describe what could have happened if they went 3 for 3 By the way, thanks so much for starting up this topic. It has been a much appreciated source of information, fellowship and goodwill since the horrors of Tuesday morning.

Hi all Marcia, a question regarding a couple well known pieces of classical music? First of, does the military drum beat of Mars: Bringer of War mean anything significant at the moment?? Second "I vow to thee my country" is the chorus associated with Jupiter: Bringer of jollity. Patriotism is presumably alive and kicking at the moment in the United States and soldiers, sailors and airmen are thinking, " I vow to thee my country"?? Yes?? Finally, I listened to Sprach Zarathustra on Friday night, and wondered if the ominous opening bars mean anything with regards to the few terrifying seconds before the wayward jets that were aimed at the WTC, struck. Do you wonder?? Rob

Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Sat Sep 15 '01 (23:18) 107 lines Patrick writess: > Boswell, from the bottom of my heart, please, log off and go and do something positive. Go and hug your daughter. Go and enroll in an anti- terrorism class. Go and make a speech on the corner. Go and pray.< And I thank you for that advice. Actually, today, I did log off in the morning. Then I did something positive by attending the funeral of Father Michael Judge, the Chaplin of the New York Fire Department (I have made a pact with myself to attend as many of the 300 funerals of the NYFD members as I physically can). Father Judge, who had decades of service in the NYFD, was as you may know, killed in the collapse of the towers as he was giving the last rites to citizens killed in the attack as other firemen were going UP THE STAIRS. If anyone here thinks that I have terrible convictions about this and is shocked or dismayed at my hate and rage, they might spend some time in front of one of the many churches of New York in the coming weeks and look into the eyes of the police and firemen and everyday workers from Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn or the other bouroughs and tell me then how much mercy they can see there. These are the men who are dealing with this now, and by and large these will be the type of men who will be fighting this war abroad and here on our land -- and there *will* be more of this here in our land -- in this city and in your cities -- and you or someone you know will be maimed or die from it. So start to understand what is happening now and what is going to happen when the truck with the explosives in it drives onto the Golden Gate Bridge and the driver of that truck tells the other truck at the foot of Mission that he's all set to light it up. Then you will be standing in front of a church (if you are lucky, as I was), and you will find yourself weeping as I did (and you will not be alone in this), and then you will understand what you do not understand now. And for this I weep for you. So the pipes played and this great and good man was carried away. And then, yes, I did go into the church and although I am not a religious man, I did pray. Then I walked to 14th street where my daughter works and I saw her and I did hug her. I shopped for some vegetables at the Green Market and walked into the crazy quilt memorials and peace and chanting maze that Union Square has become .. a kind of bizarre Princess Di Death Monument, overwhelmed in it's peace and love adornments with page after page and image after image of what we are now politely calling "the missing" -- as in 'most of these real people from many nations are now atomized. Then I came home to care for my dear and sick friend. Then, as she slept, I logged on here and saw what one always sees -- the sleepers and the dreamers and the few trying to make sense of things, and those who say "if only we had done this,if only we had done that"... Those who still cannot grasp that everything is, in the words of the poet, "changed utterly. A terrible beauty is born." But none of this or anything else I may place here is really for anyone other than myself. This is my journal put out in the raw as I think it. I really don't have any other purpose than that. People can make of it it what they will. So, Patrick, that's what my day was like. Strangely it filled most of your requirements without even knowing what they would be. I even made a speech of sorts on the street. When the hearse bearing the body of Father Judge was passing down the street behind the flag and through two lines of pipers playing, I noticed that a goodly number of people lining the streets were just watching or, even more odious, taking photographs. I've never spoken out on the streets since Berkeley in the 60s, but quite to my surprise I found myself saying, I think, "Citizens. A great man is passing. We do not take pictures. We salute him." And placing my right hand over my heart in a gesture I haven't used in well over 40 years, I did so. Some others did as well. Strange that we have forgotten how do do this, isn't it? Perhaps we should start to remember this and some other things as well.

The American Red Cross in New York is calling for help from the IT community. "The New York American Red Cross is in dire need of technology equipment and services," Joe Leo, assistant director of the American Red Cross in New York, told NewsBytes. "The field workers and rescue sites have little, if any, means of communication, and the central office is processing way too much on completely paper systems. Any help in acquiring these resources would be greatly appreciated," he said. Leo highlighted an immediate need for Citrix server engineers and Microsoft- certified consultants to help with setting up systems that will aid the rescue process. Laptops, wireless networking cards, printers, CD burners and other equipment are also required. "Essentially, anything you can give us, we can use," Leo said. Other IT requirements include the need to develop a single system for tracking missing people. A database is in the process of being complied containing pictures, dental records and descriptions of the missing. ... Joe Leo at the American Red Cross can be phoned at (212) 875-2409 or e- mailed at jleo@arcgny.org. Donations of equipment can be sent to his office: 150 Amsterdam Avenue, New York, NY 10023. Mr Leo asked that only those who want to volunteer contact him directly.

you're correct, Karen, Kuwait is not Afghanistan, of that I am well aware. I am also aware that not all Muslim sects observe the same ideals or practices. My intention was not to make a broad statement about the treatment of Islamic women and I'm sorry if some of you read it that way. Generalizations are being made, stereotypes being set or reaffirmed. My point was that I personally witnessed a part of Islam that I was not aware of before my visit to Kuwait. Fine, Saudi, Afghanistan, Turkey, etc., have harsher views, that point is well known and well taken. My point was that an idea I had about this religion was changed.

marcia, thank you for that website about predicition hoaxes!

I second that thanks to Marcia!

From an account of Congressional testimony given in 1998:Since taking power, the Taliban militia group, which now controls much of Afghanistan, has placed Afghan women under virtual house arrest. The Taliban has decreed that women and girls can no longer attend school; women are banned from employment; women are not allowed to leave their homes unless accompanied by a husband, father, brother, or son; women who do leave their homes have to be covered from head to toe in a "burqa," with only a mesh opening to see and breath through; the windows of homes with women occupants are required to be painted opaque so the women inside cannot be seen; women are prohibited from being treated by male doctors; and women are banned from wearing white socks and shoes that make noise as they walk. "Women are being beaten, shot at, and even killed for violating these draconian decrees -- for merely trying to go to work, leaving their homes alone, or violating the Taliban's extreme dress orders," stated Leno. Leno also shared a report from journalist Jan Goodwin that girls at the state orphanage in Kabul have not been allowed to leave the building to go outside since September of 1996 -- although the boys go outside every day to attend school and to play. "The abuses of women and girls in Afghanistan have been justified in the name of religion and culture. However, the Taliban's decrees are foreign to the religion, the culture, and the people of Afghanistan," said Leno, who related that before the Taliban took control schools were co-educational, 70% of teachers were women, 40% of doctors were women, and Afghan women did not cover themselves with the burqa.For additional information the gender apartheid going on in Afghanistan: http://www.feminist.org/news/pr/pr030298.html http://www.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/central/07/13/afghan.women/ http://www.rawa.org/

It's incredible that you would have to post this information, Karen. I have known this for years and I thought it was common knowledge. :-( Please read this letter that was posted by someone who was on the first flight out of Logan Airport. You will understand the new security procedures. http://www.pemberley.com/bin/ramble/ramble.cgi?read=37767

I posted it for those who were unaware of the situation and did not realize what the Taliban has been doing.

Thank you for posting that Karen. I knew that the women were forced to completely cover themselves, but I had no idea it was so horrible. I hope we can help them in some way through all of what is to come.

I heard from one of the talking heads on Sunday monring tv that Afghanistan is 70% women, can someone confirm that?

MSNBC and CNN report that Pakistan has delivered an ultimatum to the Taliban: turn over Bin Laden within 72 hours or face military attack from Pakistan. From Pakistan. We've scared the hell out of them. Another article: http://www.charleston.net/pub/news/commentary/dillar0913.htm However, the '90s cutbacks in intelligence - in a time of growing complexity in the world - was a critical misstep that laid the groundwork for the failure to foresee the events of Sept. 11, 2001. These cuts have prevented our intelligence agencies from acting on complete information. Terrorist organizations, as well as those groups that would proliferate weapons of mass destruction, can only be effectively countered with a robust and well-funded human intelligence capability . . . I heard on MSNBC that El Al has been sealing off the cockpits of their planes for the last 25 years.

A whole lot of intelligence information on Afghanistan comes from the CIA Factbook, I've compiled in this web location: http://www.spring.net/afghan We may be developing a special section of the Spring to deal with the coming world conflict and we may even add a conference on this or expand more topics in the news conference. Here is a proposed topic list: 1 coping with the crisis 2 the attack 3 what can we do? 4 where were you when you heard? 5 racism 6 information on the net 7 hindsight 8 what will change? 9 world response 10 local impact where you are 11 economic impact 12 President Bush 13 travel in the post attack world 14 Osama Bin Laden 15 What will become of Civil Liberty? 16 media coverage 17 thinking like the enemy, what next? We can either add these to news, all or some of them, or we can create a new conference called? attack? terror? I think we already have a conference called InternationalConflict or something like that, it never got used much.

SJ Mercury news has some numbers on the international casualty toll at WTC... 100 Britons confirmed dead, final toll expected to be higher 250 Indians feared killed, injured and missing a dozen Mexican nationals, of over 100 citizens working at WTC 100 Russians missing 50 Bangladeshi confirmed dead, more missing 8 Australians confirmed dead, 80 others missing 100 Japanese unaccounted for other nationals believed lost include Canadians, S. Koreans, Zimbabweans, Taiwanese, Italians, colombians and Filipinos, but no numbers reported. The number that worries me are the 250 Indian nationals, given Pakistan's ties to the Taliban, not to mention the Indian/Pakistani conflicts over, say, Kashmir, or their nuclear arms race.

Here are the "official" figures: International casualties in the "attack on america" (preliminary official figures): Argentina: 2 missing Australia: 9 confirmed dead, 85 missing Bangladesh: 50 confirmed, more missing Belgium: 60 missing Brazil: 5 missing Canada: 2 confirmed, 100 missing (est) Chile: 1 missing China: 4 confirmed, 30 missing Colombia: 6 confirmed, 116 missing Denmark: 15 missing Dominican Republic: 3 missing Egypt: 1 confirmed, 3 missing El Salvador: 1 confirmed, 18 missing Finland: 41 missing France: 81 missing Germany: 4 confirmed, 700 missing Great Britain: 100 confirmed, 400 missing (est) India: 250 missing Indonesia: 1 confirmed, 1 missing Ireland: 4 confirmed Israel: 1 confirmed, 150 missing Italy: 8 missing Japan: 2 confirmed, 100 missing Lebanon: 1 confirmed, 2 missing Malaysia: 7 missing Mexico: 150-500 missing (est) Norway: 15 missing Pakistan: 3 confirmed, more missing Paraguay: 2 missing Peru: 5 missing Philippines: 7 missing Portugal: 3 confirmed, 20 missing Puerto Rico: 1 missing South Africa: 1 confirmed, 2 missing South Korea: 1 confirmed, 27 missing Spain: 9 missing Sweden: 1 missing Switzerland: 4 confirmed, 10 missing Taiwan: 9 missing Zimbabwe: 6 missing (data collected from newspapers and government websites. ) http://hem.passagen.se/eff/2001_09_01_bot-archive.htm That's nearly 3,000 people from 40 nations confirmed dead or unaccounted for.

An invaluable resource: http://www.sabawoon.com/afghanpedia/Afghanistan.shtm

And here's a list of many web sites about Afghanistan: http://www.abyznewslinks.com/afgha.htm

Open letter from Saddam Hussein to the American peoples and the western peoples and their governments. http://www.uruklink.net/iraqnews/enews8.htm

As this excerpt from a New Yorker article from a while back shows, we have to be careful in how we conduct air strikes against terrorist camps in Afghanistan and other places. These camps are undoubtedly dispersing physically and forming virtually in cyberspace as we speak. "http://www.newyorker.com/PRINTABLE/?FROM_THE_ARCHIVE/010917fr_archive07 The American war against bin Laden has affected United States policy throughout much of the Islamic world, particularly in South Asia and the Middle East. Memorably, on August 20, 1998, the Pakistani Army's chief of staff, General Jehangir Karamat, was playing host in Islamabad to his American counterpart, General Joseph Ralston, the vice-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Around ten o'clock in the evening, as the two men were having dinner, Ralston looked up from his chicken tikka, checked his watch, and informed his host that in ten minutes some sixty Tomahawk cruise missiles would be entering Pakistan's airspace. Their destination, he said, was Afghanistan, where bin Laden was believed to be operating four training camps. General Karamat was stunned, and appalled. "It was a 'This is happening as we speak' kind of conversation," an American intelligence official told me. "Ralston was there, on the ground, to make absolutely certain that when the missiles flew across Pakistan's radar screen they would not be misconstrued as coming from India and, as a consequence, be shot down." The intelligence official paused for a moment, and then said, "This is one hell of a way to treat our friends." By the following day, General Karamat's anger�and that of the government he served�had turned to rage. A number of the Tomahawks either had been poorly targeted or had not fallen where they were aimed. Two of the four training camps that were hit and destroyed, in the Zhawar Kili area of Afghanistan's Paktia province, were facilities of Pakistan's own intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence, or I.S.I. According to a highly placed official, five I.S.I. officers and some twenty trainees were killed. The government of Pakistan was not only furious but embarrassed, because it had not been taken into Washington's confidence. Why had there been only ten minutes' notice? And why had General Karamat been notified, instead of the Prime Minister? Pakistan wasn't our only affronted ally. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority�indeed, much of the Islamic world�expressed dismay. The United States had reason to be embarrassed as well. For, despite President Clinton's claim, in a televised address a few hours after the missile strikes, that a "gathering of key terrorist leaders" had been expected to take place at one of the target sites, bin Laden and his top lieutenants were more than a hundred miles away when the missiles struck. The meeting that Clinton referred to had occurred a month earlier, in Jalalabad.

I have just returned home (to the UK) from a short trip abroad during which I had no access to the Internet, therefore wish to take this opportunity to register my deepest sympathy and untold horror and revulsion at the recent events in America.

I thought this map might be valuable to those of you who are having trouble figuring out the geography of all of this "flyover" "staging area" stuff. I find the tiny shared border with China to be rather interesting. I wasn't aware of that. http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/sw_asia_pol00.jpg The story JoAnn refers to says that Cheney and others in the Pentagon weren't notified of the hijacking until 35 minutes after the air traffic controllers had contacted the military, and well after U.S. jet fighters were in the air. Unforuntately, the fighters were dispatched from a base 130 miles away, rather than Andrews, 15 miles away Subject: [archivists] Attack Archive: Please suggest sites Date: Sunday, September 16, 2001 9:48 AM From: Brewster Kahle To: Cc: Please help build a Web Archive of the Sept 11 Attack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Internet Archive in collaboration with Alexa Internet, and SUNY, Library of Congress and UWashington is archiving pages and sites relating to the terrorist attacks in the NY and DC. Where we are archiving sites and pages all the time, we are concentrating the crawlers to make sure there is a solid historical record of this time. If you would like to help, we can build a better archive. Here is how you can help: Suggest sites and pages to archive: * This can be done by sending URL's to attackarchive@alexa.com (this is a list of the crawl engineers at Alexa and the researchers at SUNY and UW) * Surf with the free Alexa Toolbar on. Every night new sites and pages are discovered by processing the day's usage logs from the Alexa Toolbar. These are sanitized to eliminate cgi and other URL's that might contain personal information and then those sites are crawled for the archive. Help build a page in mid-October that will help guide people through relevant materials. This could be similar to the Election 2000 webpage (http://archive.alexa.com), or something else completely. We would like to make this public at the end of October or early November. Datamine the web archive to find past pages and sites that might be relevant. This takes programming skill and will be more difficult for Alexa to support, but if you are interested, please write a proposal in the web section of the www.archive.org site. Thank you. Please repost, but don't spam. -brewster Director, Internet A "In 2000, catastrophes claimed more than 17,400 lives and caused overall financial losses - not counting indirect economic damage - of almost USD 50 billion. According to Swiss Re's definitive statistics, the burden on the insurance industry was comparatively low at USD 10.6 billion." Note that this is world-wide. For more details, go to http://www.swissre.com/, then go to research&Publications, and click on the pull-down item "sigma insurance research". On that page, the item Catastrophe losses in 2000 (under "latest sigma") will bring you to the data. How does it compare to the damage from the last big earthquake in Japan. For Kobe: "Current estimates of the repair costs in this earthquake have been reported in the range of U.S.$95 billion to U.S.$147 billion" Source: http://www.eqe.com/publications/kobe/economic.htm Dateline's report on the phone call from Jeremy Glick to his wife from Flight 93 was extraordinarily well-done. The call lasted for 20 minutes, and followed Mr. Glick's revelation of what was actually happening, and what he had to do. He used his butter knife from breakfast as a weapon. Here's the story: http://www.msnbc.com/news/629077.asp

May we please keep to topic here and not to views of Islam. That is covered in Cultures in a topic all its own. I think it belongs there and not here where we discuss our national tragedy and honor those who have risked their lives in order to save others. Please! Let us not disintegrate into other divergences.

this was forwarded to me: Following is an article from the Miami Herald. R/Scott Published Wednesday, September 12, 2001 The Miami Herald Leonard Pitts We'll go forward from this moment. It's my job to have something to say. They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering. You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed. Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together. Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God. Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals. IN PAIN. Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before. But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice. I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future. In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined. THE STEEL IN US. You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish. So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started. But you're about to learn.

(sorry for the length) does anyone know the amount of rubble pulled out so far? (last i heard was 20,000 tons, just 2% of the estimated total)

Terry, I think it might be appropriate to open another topic about all of this... perhaps "post 9-11-01" or something like that...I'm not sure what to call it; "new world" or something like that sounds too trivial. But I think that there are so many issues that will stem from last tuesday's events, that they should all be housed under one topic. I am using the right phrase here, right? topic would be the larger theme, and then boards are under topics, correct?

thank you marcia!

thanks for posting that, Wolf. That is a great article!

Great article, indeed. I am looking for the Wall Street Journal's Friday editorial. It came highly recommended to me. I heard 22,000 tons of out of something like 460,000 tons!!!

Here is the lastes results of an AOL survey. Should the World Trade Center towers be rebuilt? Yes 609742 59% No 224927 22% It's too soon to decide 187317 18% Total votes: 1021986 And here is an article that expresses my thoughts: "Make it green " September 14, 2001 BY ROGER EBERT If there is to be a memorial, let it not be of stone and steel. Fly no flag above it, for it is not the possession of a nation but a sorrow shared with the world. Let it be a green field, with trees and flowers. Let there be paths that wind through the shade. Put out park benches where old people can sun in the summertime, and a pond where children can skate in the winter. Beneath this field will lie entombed forever some of the victims of September 11. It is not where they thought to end their lives. Like the sailors of the battleship Arizona, they rest where they fell. Let this field stretch from one end of the destruction to the other. Let this open space among the towers mark the emptiness in our hearts. But do not make it a sad place. Give it no name. Let people think of it as the green field. Every living thing that is planted there will show faith in the future. Let students take a corner of the field and plant a crop there. Perhaps corn, our native grain. Let the harvest be shared all over the world, with friends and enemies, because that is the teaching of our religions, and we must show that we practice them. Let the harvest show that life prevails over death, and let the gifts show that we love our neighbors. Do not build again on this place. No building can stand there. No building, no statue, no column, no arch, no symbol, no name, no date, no statement. Just the comfort of the earth we share, to remind us that we share it. Copyright � Chicago Sun-Times Inc.

I've heard that the Wakhan Corridor is pretty much deep in the Hindu Kush mountains, and isn't of much tactical value unless you're a terrorist looking for a hideout.

Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:38:28 -0700 From: Lena M. Diethelm lendie@rawbw.com Subject: Fwd: Real Justice Rabbi Michael Lerner, Editor TIKKUN Magazine | 09.12.2001 There is never any justification for acts of terror against innocent civilians-it is the quintessential act of dehumanization and not recognizing the sanctity of others, and a visible symbol of a world increasingly irrational and out of control. It's understandable why many of us, after grieving and consoling the mourners, will feel anger-and while some demagogues in Congress have already sought to manipulate that feeling into a growing militarism (more spies, legalize assassinations of foreign leaders, increase the defense budget at the expense of domestic programs), the more "responsible" leaders are seeking to narrow America's response to targeted attacks on countries that allegedly harbor the terrorists. But though the perpetrators deserve to be punished, in some ways this narrow focus allows us to avoid dealing with the underlying issues. When violence becomes so prevalent throughout the planet, it's too easy to simply talk of "deranged minds." We need to ask ourselves, "What is it in the way that we are living, organizing our societies, and treating each other that makes violence seem plausible to so many people?" We in the spiritual world will see this as a growing global incapacity to recognize the spirit of God in each other-what we call the sanctity of each human being. But even if you reject religious language, you can see that the willingness of people to hurt each other to advance their own interests has become a global problem, and it's only the dramatic level of this particular attack which distinguishes it from the violence and insensitivity to each other that is part of our daily lives. We may tell ourselves that the current violence has "nothing to do" with the way that we've learned to close our ears when told that one out of every three people on this planet does not have enough food, and that one billion are literally starving. We may reassure ourselves that the hoarding of the world's resources by the richest society in world history, and our frantic attempts to accelerate globalization with its attendant inequalities of wealth, has nothing to do with the resentment that others feel toward us. We may tell ourselves that the suffering of refugees and the oppressed have nothing to do with us-that that's a different story that is going on somewhere else. But we live in one world, increasingly interconnected with everyone, and the forces that lead people to feel outrage, anger, and desperation eventually impact on our own daily lives. The same inability to feel the pain of others is the pathology that shapes the minds of these terrorists. Raise children in circumstances where no one is there to take care of them, or where they must live by begging or selling their bodies in prostitution, put them in refugee camps and tell them that that they have "no right of return" to their homes, treat them as though they are less valuable and deserving of respect because they are part of some despised national or ethnic group, surround them with a media that extols the rich and makes everyone who is not economically successful and physically trim and conventionally "beautiful" feel bad about themselves, offer them jobs whose sole goal is to enrich the "bottom line" of someone else, and teach them that "looking out for number one" is the only thing anyone "really" cares about and that anyone who believes in love and social justice are merely naive idealists who are destined to always remain powerless, and you will produce a world-wide population of people feeling depressed, angry, unable to care about others, and in various ways dysfunctional. Luckily most people don't act out in violent ways-they tend to act out more against themselves, drowning themselves in alcohol or drugs or personal despair. Others turn toward fundamentalist religions or ultra-nationalist extremism. Still others find themselves acting out against people that they love, acting angry or hurtful toward children or relationship partners. Most Americans will feel puzzled by any reference to this "larger picture." It seems baffling to imagine that somehow we are part of a world system which is slowly destroying the life support system of the planet, and quickly transferring the wealth of the world into our own pockets. We don't feel personally responsible when an American corporation runs a sweat shop in the Phillipines or crushes efforts of workers to organize in Singapore. We don't see ourselves implicated when the U.S. refuses to consider the plight of Palestinian refugees or uses the excuse of fighting drugs to support repression in Colombia or other parts of Central America. We don't even see the symbolism when terrorists attack America's military center and our trade center-we talk of them as buildings, though others see them as centers of the forces that are causing the world so much pain. We have narrowed our own attention to "getting through" or "doing well" in our own personal lives, and who has time to focus on all the rest of this? Most of us are leading perfectly reasonable lives within the options that we have available to us-so why should others be angry at us, much less strike out against us? And the truth is, our anger is also understandable: the striking out by others in acts of terror against us is just as irrational as the world-system that it seeks to confront. Yet our acts of counter-terror will also be counter-productive. We should have learned from the current phase of the Israel-Palestinian struggle, responding to terror with more violence, rather than asking ourselves what we could do to change the conditions that generated it in the first place, will only ensure more violence against us in the future. This is a world out of touch with itself, filled with people who have forgotten how to recognize and respond to the sacred in each other because we are so used to looking at others from the standpoint of what they can do for us, how we can use them toward our own ends. The alternatives are stark: either start caring about the fate of everyone on this planet or be prepared for a slippery slope toward violence that will eventually dominate our daily lives. We should pray for the victims and the families of those who have been hurt or murdered in these crazy acts. We should also pray that America does not return to "business as usual," but rather turns to a period of reflection, coming back into touch with our common humanity, asking ourselves how our institutions can best embody our highest values. We may need a global day of atonement and repentance dedicated to finding a way to turn the direction of our society at every level, a return to the notion that every human life is sacred, that "the bottom line" should be the creation of a world of love and caring, and that the best way to prevent these kinds of acts is not to turn ourselves into a police state, but turn ourselves into a society in which social justice, love, and compassion are so prevalent that violence becomes only a distant memory.

More on the shared border. The only reason it's Afghanistan is that there was obviously a concerted effort to prevent a common border between India and Russia back in the 1800s. This is the very most farthest extension of ecotourism: http://www.concordiaexpeditions.com/tartary_trip.html This trek takes us to Northern Chitral and runs on the edge of the famous Wakhan Corridor. The corridor was deliberately made as a buffer zone to curtail the advancing Russian influence into British India during the 18th century. Here many spies were sent on both sides who mingled with the local populace as if they were natives. This is the place of the Great Game which was played between the Russian 'Bear,' the English 'Lion,' and the Chinese 'Dragon.' The three empires jockeyed for land, position and influence for the strategic heart of Central Asia.

Hey ya'll. I was just talking to my sister in Seattle, a litle while ago. I was telling her about me and my buddy going shopping for supplies for the rescue workers in NY ( saline solution, bottled water, work boots, mens underwear etc etc ) She has heard about none of this, except for the Red Cross blood drive. Do any of you know of any websites that I can tell her about, that give out info on what supplies are still needed ? I tried the Red Cross website, but didn't get much info. Here in Atlanta, massive semi rigs are parked in many of our supermarkets. People are coming and filling them up with supplies, that will be then driven to NY when they are full. I guess not much of this is being done on the West Coast, coz it is a weeks drive from NY.

Hi all Msg 352 - Terry: Here are the "official figures Rob: Some bad news. New Zealand can be added to the list as 1 New Zealander is confirmed dead and at least a dozen are missing. *weeps* Initially more than 200 New Zealanders were in the area, but I do not know how many have been accounted for - except that there is definitely at least one body. Rob

I have been looking for an article that expresses the European point of view and this is it. It is secular as can be expected. For the arrogance of power, America now pays a terrible price By JONATHAN POWER September 12, 2001 LONDON - The American nation appears not only immensely distressed and angry about the bombings but surprised too. It cannot understand why anyone should be moved by such hatred against it and, inured from the rest of us by the isolationism of most of its political representatives and its media, it has little idea of the currents swirling against it. An event of this magnitude was not only unimagined, it was unimaginable. Yet long before George Bush became president with his forceful in-your-face, take-it-or-leave-it attitude to the world outside on issues as diverse as global warming and anti-missile defences, America has been turning in on itself, to the point of self-destructiveness. William Pfaff, the astute American commentator, wrote recently that "America is a dangerous nation while remaining a righteous one" and America's pre-eminent foreign policy observer, George Kennan, ambassador to the Soviet Union during Stalin's time, wrote quite a few years ago, "I do not think that the United States civilization of these last 40-50 years is a successful civilization. I think this country is destined to succumb to failures which cannot be other than tragic and enormous in their scope." And later added that for Americans "to see ourselves as the centre of political enlightenment and teachers to a great part of the rest of the world [is] unthought-through, vainglorious and undesirable." It would be misunderstanding human nature to believe that most Americans want to hear such thoughts played back to them on their day of grief, victims of an evil deed that compares with the worst of the blood-stained twentieth century. Yet they have to know that action produces reaction and not for nothing is anti-American resentment on the increase all over the world, not least in Europe where there is some astonishment at the way the new American administration has ploughed ahead with its self-interested agenda as if no one else has a legitimate opinion or could perhaps view the same situation in a different light. Foreign observers do not miss the reports that come out of Pentagon think tanks of America's need to use this special moment after the defeat of European communism and the break up of the Soviet Union to make sure that America is militarily superior the world over, and that no one, not even its closest allies, should be in a position to tell it what to do. The U.S. began the new millennium as the most heavily militarised nation on earth. It is the U.S., which poses the military threat to others. At the outbreak of the Second World War the U.S. army was only 174,000 men. Today it has 1.4 million in its "standing army" and a ready reserve and National Guard numbering 2.5 million. Despite the end of the Cold War, under President Bill Clinton the U.S. made only a paltry effort to wind down the nuclear arsenals of the superpowers, and instead provocatively insisted on expanding Nato close to Russia's borders. The Bush administration with its declared ambition to abandon the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, solemnly signed by Richard Nixon and Leonid Brezhnev, seems unconcerned that this will set in motion events that will unwind hard won international norms on ending nuclear testing and on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, even hinting that it will understand if China has to increase its nuclear forces or test new nuclear weapons. I have talked to a range of ordinary Europeans in the last 24 hours and they all say, in the face of the earnest shoulder-to-shoulder rhetoric of their leaders, that America has got itself into this hole by its own disregard for what others think. The first law of holes, of course, is to stop digging - which, of course, is what Washington should firmly have told Israel six presidents ago when it started its foolish and counterproductive policy of building settlements on what everyone knew was Palestinian land. Amazingly, the policy continues with apparent understanding from the Bush administration. While Arab governments ring their hands, and young Palestinians fight one of the best trained armies in the world with stones, there are the inevitable few attached to the Palestinian cause who are moved towards serious violence - the suicide bombers and, we don't know yet, although it is the most likely explanation, the destroyers of the World Trade Centre. In every political movement - whether it be the Palestinians or the globalisation protestors in Genoa there are fringe elements that advocate violence. This does not mean the mainstream of that movement is wrong. It might or might not be. But, right or wrong, there will always be powerful elements of truth contained within it, or the passions and purpose would never be ignited. To meet it eye for eye and tooth for tooth, as Gandhi once said, is to make everybody blind. America right now is a repository of exhausted ideas, like dead stars. The arrogance of power has produced its inevitable reaction. America is threatened not by nuclear tipped missiles from unknown rogue nations, but by small groups of angry men who, although prisoners of their zealotry, know well enough that much of the world whilst not agreeing with them understands their frustration. To deal with this effectively requires a new way of looking at the world. George Kennan, the late Senator William Fulbright, Willam Pfaff and others have been arguing what this might be for a long time. On this sad and tragic day one wishes their pens could become mightier than America's sword. *** I have e-mail Mr. Power asking him why he has neglected to write about Jihad. The fact that he ignores it just goes to stress the secular/atheistic point of view of modern "Socialist" Europe.

The UK Guardian is reporting that bin Laden has abandoned his main base near Kandahar and has moved to an undisclosed place in the mountains. His four wives and numerous children are with him. What if the Pakistanis persuade the Taliban regime to hand him over? Will be martyrized? The UK Guardian coverage on this is at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,553156,00.html

From: Patrice Riemens Reply-To: Patrice Riemens To: A New Era for Humanity by Yann Moix Liberation (Paris), September 14, 2001 original in French at http://www.liberation.com/ny2001/actu/20010914venze.html Bingo, folks! The World will never go at war again, and yet it will be at war always, period. War and non-war, there shall be no difference any more. From the 11th of September 2001, all will be war, even peace. Peace shall no longer be the opposite of war, but its context, its natural environment, its ecosystem, its scene, its background, its screen-saver. War and peace shall no longer be each others contraries (that was in the good old manichean East vs West times), but they shall be imbricated the one in the other, like the two connected faces of the same reality. Peace shall be a kind of specific sub-case of war. War shall henceforth be everywhere and nowhere. War shall be waged in the dustbins of the Paris railtermini, war shall be waged above our heads in the air of the metropolises. War shall be permanent. War shall be open for business 24/24, 7/7 , just like CNN. There shall be intermissions, but no reprieve. It shall be a war blind, yet precise, fuzzy, yet targeted. Because never before has the distortion been so stark between fuziness of the causes and the acuurateness of the strikes . The First HyperWorldWar has started. It is a war where all pretenses will fly, and where acts will be used as statements of purpose afterwards. Let's call this a hyperwar: a world where the ordinary, natural context of societies is no longer peace, but war. A hyperwar is not a classic world war with opposite fighting sides. It is a 'non-Euclydian', non-catalogised war, without rules and principles others than its own logic. Hyperwar cannot be localised in space. Nor in time. It is a kind of magnum opus of terrorism,its _best of_ or rather its _worst of_: plane hijacks, crashes, bombs, kamikaze operations. In fact it was the 20th century as a whole that was fast-forwarded in just a couple of minutes on the 11th of September, 2001. And that will be the birth certificate of the 21st Century, like (the 31st of July) 1914 was it for the 20th. But it are no longer states which are waging war, but wars that are making states. But then, unheard of sort of states: non-nation-states, states without teritorry, without citizens or borders, without (elected) governements, nay, these are virtual states, scattered war-states, fuzzy, networked octopus-states, community-states whose only borders are ideological. These states, just like virusses, evolve, adjust, mutate, invent and reinvent themselves everyday. Sometimes, their size is reduced to that of a lone individual who is an ideology, an army, a clear and present danger all unto himself. And a walking bomb. After the era of the statesmen comes the era of the state-men. The political state has become undistinguishable from the biological state. Over these past days, we have been bombarded with the metaphor of Pearl Harbour: nothing could be further from the truth. Pearl Harbour was an episode within a war. The 11th of september was the definition of an other type of war, the starting point for a new era in human history. The human element is now being affected all over the planet, since hyperwars feeds itself on the psychoses it creates by the permanent menace it exerts on all. Psychosis has become the continuation of war by other means. It gnaws at the individual, it eats up her/his mind, it shatters her/his rational structure. It is a war on the 'may be/ may be not' mode, whereby the horror is mainly a potential one. And thus, it is a war that may have a beginning, but no end. Hyperwar is built for the long run. It thrives in totality, that of the universe and of eternity. (Halelujah! - tr -) (Q&D translation by yours truly) Reposted without permission whatsoever # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo@bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net

A good Robert Scheer op-ed on the "unleash the CIA" blather can be found in today's LA Times at: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column an editorial today in the LA Times raises another question about unsavory allies: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-000074763sep17.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Deditorials

From: William Meyers To: , , , , Date: 9/15/01 3:12PM Subject: after the hit Dear Everyone, Here's an important document issued yesterday that we should all keep in mind: Human Rights Watch Response to Attacks on the U.S. Civilian Life Must Be Respected (New York, September 12, 2001) -- We profoundly condemn yesterday's cruel attacks in the United States and express our condolences to the victims and their loved ones. This was an assault not merely on one nation or one people, but on principles of respect for civilian life cherished by all people. We urge all governments to unite to investigate this crime, to prevent its recurrence, and to bring to justice those who are responsible. Last night, President Bush said that the United States "will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbored them." Yet distinctions must be made: between the guilty and the innocent; between the perpetrators and the civilians who may surround them; between those who commit atrocities and those who may simply share their religious beliefs, ethnicity or national origin. People committed to justice and law and human rights must never descend to the level of the perpetrators of such acts. That is the most important distinction of all. There are people and governments in the world who believe that in the struggle against terrorism, ends always justify means. But that is also the logic of terrorism. Whatever the response to this outrage, it must not validate that logic. Rather, it must uphold the principles that came under attack yesterday, respecting innocent life and international law. That is the way to deny the perpetrators of this crime their ultimate victory. And here's the letter from HHDL to GWB that got released to the public yesterday: 1. The Dalai Lama's letter to the President of the United States of America --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Excellency, I am deeply shocked by the terrorist attacks that took place involving four apparently hijacked aircrafts and the immense devastation these caused. It is a terrible tragedy that so many innocent lives have been lost and it seems unbelievable that anyone would choose to target the World Trade Center in New York City and the Pentagon in Washington D.C. We are deeply saddened. On behalf of the Tibetan people I would like to convey our deepest condolence and solidarity with the American people during this painful time. Our prayers go out to the many who have lost their lives, those who have been injured and the many more who have been traumatized by this senseless act of violence. I am attending a special prayer for the United States and it's people at our main temple today. I am confident that the United States as a great and powerful nation will be able to overcome this present tragedy. The American people have shown their resilience, courage and determination when faced with such difficult and sad situation. It may seem presumptuous on my part, but I personally believe we need to think seriously whether a violent action is the right thing to do and in the greater interest of the nation and people in the long run. I believe violence will only increase the cycle of violence. But how do we deal with hatred and anger, which are often the root causes of such senseless violence? This is a very difficult question, especially when it concerns a nation and we have certain fixed conceptions of how to deal with such attacks. I am sure that you will make the right decision. With my prayers and good wishes The Dalai Lama September 12, 2001 Dharamsala, India And, for contrast, here's a little excerpt from today's Times about what life is like here today: The three major metropolitan airports in the New York region reopened in the late morning, but confusion reigned as schedules were strewn with cancellations, bags were searched and passengers were questioned aggressively. And in the evening, the three airports were closed because of the arrests at Kennedy and La Guardia. As for the rest of New York, it was to be a day of return to relatively normal life, with schools, theaters and many businesses reopening, and commuters traveling on bridges and through tunnels that had been closed. But instead of a nearly normal day, countless New Yorkers endured yet another psychological roller coaster. First came disheartening news. After days of vague but ominous estimates, Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani announced in the late morning that 4,763 people were believed missing in the trade center rubble, bringing the possible death toll in the coordinated attacks to nearly 5,000 � more than double the 2,390 Americans lost at Pearl Harbor. The mayor said that only 184 bodies or body parts had been found, and that only 35 of them had been identified. Among the missing were 300 firefighters and 60 police officers. Three hours later, even as hope seemed to fade for those buried under the collapsed trade center, there were reports that the desperate round-the-clock search for survivors had yielded three, or five, or seven firefighters, alive after 50 hours trapped under the mountains of rubble. Miraculously, some were said to have walked away, or even to have picked up tools to join their rescuers. The Associated Press, WCBS-TV and CNN put out the news, and calls from relatives of the missing flooded a Fire Department hot line. But by late afternoon, the accounts of rescues were dismissed by officials as rumors that apparently started after several rescuers fell into a hole in the rubble and, after 15 minutes, were pulled out. Since the site is dangerous and off-limits to the news media, the accounts apparently originated with rescue workers who misunderstood what they saw, and were passed on to reporters. Meanwhile, the craziness was spreading around town. Some 90 bomb threats in the late morning and early afternoon led to evacuations at Grand Central Terminal and the MetLife Building above it, the Port Authority Bus Terminal, La Guardia Airport, Macy's department store, the Cond� Nast Building in Times Square, CNN's Midtown bureau and other buildings. Tens of thousands were involved, and on crowded Midtown streets where the evacuees milled about, spikes of panic were observed � weeping, anger, even some fights � that seemed to reflect confusion, irritation and exasperation rather than fear, a kind of psychic reaction to the long days of high tension. Michael Pecoriello, 56, who works for a publishing company and was evacuated from 5 Penn Plaza, found himself in a crowd mumbling frustrations. "Some peoplecan't deal with this," he said. "It's scary." On a higher note, I've been able to plug in with the Tibetans -- attended their candlelight vigil last night in Union Square...where the amount of candles and flowers and posted photos of "the missing" is emotionally overwhelming. A lot of Tibetan monks were there last night, chanting for the dead -- a very high meditation vibration that generated some real peace...and the Representative of HH announced and talked about the things below: 3. Press Release from the Office of Tibet, NYC re: attack on the US ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA SENDS HIS CONDOLENCES TO PRESIDENT BUSH AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contacts: Ngawang Phelgyal September 12, 2001 Tenzin Kalsang Choephel (212) 213-5010 NEW YORK - On September 12, 2001, His Holiness the Dalai Lama sent a letter expressing his shock and sadness to President George Bush and the American people after hearing of the recent events in New York City and Washington, D.C. He states, "It is a terrible tragedy that so many innocent lives have been lost . . . We are deeply saddened. On behalf of the Tibetan people I would like to convey our deepest condolence and solidarity with the American people during this painful time. Our prayers go out to the many who have lost lives, those who have been injured and the many more who have been traumatized by this senseless act of violence." His Holiness concludes His letter to the President with a poignant question: "It may seem presumptuous on my part, but I personally believe we need to think seriously whether a violent action is the right thing to do and in the greater interest of the nation and people in the long run. I believe violence will only increase the cycle of violence. But how do we deal with hatred and anger, which are often the root causes of such senseless violence?" The Prime Minister of the Tibetan Government in Exile also sent condolence letters to the President and the New York City Mayor, Rudolph Giuliani. Both Tibetan leaders conveyed their confidence that the U.S. as a great nation will overcome these recent events and the American people will show their resilience, courage and determination. A Special Prayer Session was held yesterday at the main temple in Dharamsala, India for all the victims of the terrorist attack. His Holiness the Dalai Lama presided over the prayer session. All offices of the Tibetan Government in Exile were closed for half the day in observation. The Office of Tibet New York is the official representative office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile to the Americas. Representative Nawang Rabgyal, still grieving over the events downtown, was able to report that no Tibetans were located near the World Trade Center or the Pentagon yesterday. Tibetans who reside in New York have been visiting area hospitals to give blood as well as coordinating food donations for the rescue workers." No Tibetan Support Groups or Dharma centers in Manhattan were affected by the attack. The Tibetan community of New York and New Jersey consists of around 2,000 Tibetans and will be holding a prayer service at 6:00pm in Union Square tomorrow, September 13, 2001. All who wish to attend are welcome. I can attest that all who attended, including myself, felt a lot more peaceful afterward. I've been reading HHDL's Ethics for the New Millennium lately to help with staying sane. Wish I could afford to buy everybody a copy -- but then I guess it wouldn't make any difference to a suicide bomber. You have to be relatively sane to be susceptible to the teachings...preaching to the converted, that's the dilemma. And I don't think there's going to be any deterring the military campaign that's about to begin -- or the ensuing war. "Rendezvous With Afghanistan" is the headline over the lead editorial in today's times. The president is due to arrive here this afternoon for a eulogy to the dead and a war rally. All we can do is hope and pray, and offer our presumptuous advice... Love, William

Also in the Independent an interesting analysis by Robert Fisk, their Beirut correspondent. He has lived the last 23 years in the Middle East, and he received the Brirish International Journalist of the Year award seven times. "Bush is walking into a trap" ... "President Bush appears to be heading for the very disaster that Osama bin Laden has laid down for him." ... "But this crime was perpetrated - it becomes ever clearer - to provoke the United States into just the blind, arrogant punch that the US military is preparing." "Mr bin Laden - every day his culpability becomes more apparent - has described to me how he wishes to overthrow the pro-American regime of the Middle East, starting with Saudi Arabia and moving on to Egypt, Jordan and the other Gulf states. In an Arab world sunk in corruption and dictatorships - most of them supported by the West - the only act that might bring Muslims to strike at their own leaders would be a brutal, indiscriminate assault by the United States." ... ""America was targeted for attack,'' Mr Bush informed us on Friday, "because we are the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world.'' But this is not why America was attacked. If this was an Arab-Muslim apocalypse, then it is intimately associated with events in the Middle East and with America's stewardship of the area." ... "I will take a tiny risk and say that no other British newspaper - certainly no American newspaper - will today recall the fact that on 16 September 1982, Israel's Phalangist militia allies started their three-day orgy of rape and knifing and murder in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila that cost 1,800 lives. It followed an Israeli invasion of Lebanon designed to drive the PLO out of the country and given the green light by the then US Secretary of State, Alexander Haig which cost the lives of 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinians, almost all of them civilians. That's probably three times the death toll in the World Trade Centre. Yet I do not remember any vigils or memorial services or candle-lighting in America or the West for the innocent dead of Lebanon; I don't recall any stirring speeches about democracy or liberty. In fact, my memory is that the United States spent most of the bloody months of July and August 1982 calling for "restraint"." ... "But America's failure to act with honour in the Middle East, its promiscuous sale of missiles to those who use them against civilians, its blithe disregard for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children under sanctions of which Washington is the principal supporter - all these are intimately related to the society that produced the Arabs who plunged America into an apocalypse of fire last week." ... "Every effort will be made in the coming days to switch off the "why'' question and concentrate on the who, what and how. CNN and most of the world's media have already obeyed this essential new war rule." ... "I repeat: what happened in New York was a crime against humanity. And that means policemen, arrests, justice, a whole new international court at The Hague if necessary. Not cruise missiles and "precision'' bombs and Muslim lives lost in revenge for Western lives. But the trap has been sprung. Mr Bush - perhaps we, too - are now walking into it."

Thanks Moon. I too wondered when that kind of sentiment was going to hit the press.They never have anything good to say about the US except when they need help.

Dow down over 600, probably under 9000.

Slate answers the question "What does bin Laden want?" Bin Laden and his followers are alarming because they don't want anything from us. They don't want our sympathy. They want no material thing we can offer them. They don't want to participate in the community of nations. (They don't really believe in the nation-state.) They are motivated by religion, not politics. They answer to no one but their god, so they certainly won't answer to us. http://slate.msn.com/Assessment/01-09-13/Assessment.asp

I have been looking for an article that expresses the European point of view and this is it. It is secular as can be expected. Moon, before we label this "the European point of view" let's step back and ask any Europeans on this board if they agree. I did read that the BBC ran a panel discussion the other evening and the "audience members" reflected many of this article's views. However, the Beeb was flooded with more than 2,000 calls of protest from viewers who felt that there was a disproportionate amount of anti-Americanism espoused and that it did not reflect the feelings of the average person. BTW, our ambassador was on the program and was to said to have been reduced to tears. Greg Dyke, head of the BBC, later apologized to him. It is true that the foreign press tends to be very critical of America, and even in the calmest of times, resorts to cheap shots--but I am interested in finding out what the average person thinks. For which publication does Jonathan Powers write?

Mari, we are talking here of the media...print,audio and visual.The Fourth Estate.Not the ordinary guy on the street. The tone of that article is "We told you so..".Almost with glee. They have short memories of who pulls them out of binds. And , sadly,so do we .

Articles in the British press today suggest that the terrorist attack on America may have been meant not merely as a "punishment" but primarily to provoke American wrath and powerful military response which would then serve as a means of turning moderate Muslims against America and the Western world. If there is no response, they may attack again. Catch 22.

Sad when people think the US response would be carpet bombing of Afghanistan. Even that I would protest as a waste of my taxpayer money. Judicious use of our resources may already be having effect. Yesterday I heard that assets were being frozen worldwide (even Swiss accounts) of known enemies, including government ministers of the Taliban. A bit of motivation for turning bin Laden in? There must be a response as history has shown us that appeasement is not acceptable when you are dealing with fanatics. People seem to have forgotten that.

For which publication does Jonathan Powers write? He is a syndicated columnist based in London. I read it in The Miami Herald. the Beeb was flooded with more than 2,000 calls of protest from viewers who felt that there was a disproportionate amount of anti-Americanism espoused and that it did not reflect the feelings of the average person. I read this too, but the reason was that the people thought it was way to soon and therefore in very bad taste. The US Ambassador was brought to tears, FGS. They felt that the BBC should have taped and edited instead of airing it live. The unfortunate reality is that in general, there is a very strong anti-American sentiment in Europe. If there is no response, they may attack again. Catch 22. I would say, they will attack again. This is not a good situation to be in, but we're in it. I have said this before, it's the Crusades all over again. There must be a response as history has shown us that appeasement is not acceptable when you are dealing with fanatics. People seem to have forgotten that. England, Ireland, Spain and Italy have suffered greatly from terrorist attacks.

The tone of that article is "We told you so..".Almost with glee. I know, and that's very hurtful, but it's nothing new. But, if I could have one or the other, I'd rather have the support of the guy in the street. Not to mention the guy at 10 Downing. What I was trying to explore: is there one monolithic European viewpoint, and the answer of course is no. They have short memories of who pulls them out of binds. And , sadly,so do we. You can't keep throwing it up to people, or get into a pissing contest over who has paid the highest price. It's counterproductive, especially now.

And the world was a *perfect* place when America was isolationist?

I think that we (America) need to re-examine all of our foreign policies, keeping in mind what our intentions are towards that nation (as the policies have always been), but also how we may be perceived by those governments. I know that is not exactly how most people would like for us to be- reactionary instead of proactive- but I think looking at the stark contrast of opinions in just the messages the presses of the two countries are putting out, is astonishing (perhaps less so to the rest of the world than to us). I don't think that America can afford to continue in the pseudo-isolationist way that we've been for the last however many years. I personally do not agree with the current administration's take it or leave it attitude towards the world. It is quite obvious to me, at least, that we have ignored serious concerns that the rest of the world seems to see and understand. I know that not a lot of people agree with me, or would voice this opinion if they have it, but I do not think that we should be backing (or as we appear to be backing) Israel in the way we are right now. I understand the historical ties there, and all that they entail, but when we sit back and just remove ourselves entirely from the situation, what does that say? It says "it's ok for you all to kill each other; we'll just sit back and wait." That's not right. There is no justification for the loss of any life there, Israeli or Palestinian, just as there is no justification for the loss of life here in NY, or in other parts of the Middle ast, Ireland, Asia, etc. Here is a very good article from The Economist magazine from last week's web addition. I can't find the URL...I emailed it to myself... AMERICA'S PLACE IN THE WORLD The devastation wrought on September 11th will shape the debate about American foreign policy for years to come A TABOO has been broken. The attacks on New York and Washington, DC so dwarf earlier examples of terrorism in the United States that they are, in effect, the bombing of mainland America that even the Japanese and the Nazis did not achieve during the second world war. For some time to come, most attention in the United States will be focused on the most pressing questions. Who perpetrated the attack? How to strike back at the culprits? How to protect America from another such terrorist atrocity? But once these questions are addressed, an even larger question will have to be faced: what is America's proper role in the world? Indeed, in a confused fashion, the debate on that question has already begun. While the administration has been determined to present a united front, and has largely succeeded, the very complexity of the task facing it has elicited statements which seem to point in different directions. Both George Bush and his secretary of state, Colin Powell, have emphasised that America is looking to its allies for support in an effort to launch a global fight against terrorism. They have spoken of the attacks on New York and Washington as attacks on freedom-loving people everywhere, not just on the United States. And yet, at the same time, they have made it clear that America will defend itself, implying it will retaliate alone if necessary. Although the administration would clearly like to build a Gulf war-style coalition to support its next steps, America's allies are rightly nervous that they will have little influence over an aroused and angered United States. American television and newspapers have been full of commentators calling for declarations of war or military intervention on the one hand, and calm restraint on the other. Some have said that it is essential to look to America's allies for support, others that America must take decisive action soon, no matter what the concerns of its friends abroad. Some have claimed that America's terrorist opponents can be crushed, and that any governments thought to have harboured terrorists should be attacked, whether or not it can be shown that they had anything to do with the assault this week. One NEW YORK TIMES columnist absurdly insisted that Congress should make a general declaration of war, even if it cannot say which country America is actually at war with. Others have argued that dropping bombs elsewhere in the world can never make America safe from another such attack, and that preserving civil liberties at home and expanding diplomatic, as well as military, efforts abroad is the only long-term approach. A NEW WORLD OF DISORDER What is clear is that the self-confidence which prompted George Bush senior, the father of the current president, to speak boldly about a "new world order" more than a decade ago, and which spawned such optimistic paeans to American values and the triumph of liberal democracies as Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History", will now look like the relics of a distant age. America may have won the cold war, and just completed a decade of unparallelled prosperity. But it evidently now lives in a much more dangerous and complicated world than most Americans ever imagined. For many of its policymaking elite, if there is to be any single text summoning up this darker vision, it is likely to be "The Clash of Civilizations" by Samuel Huntington, an article published in 1993 (later expanded into a book) which predicted that democratic countries led by the United States would end up locked in violent conflict with Islamic extremism. Opinions about how America should conduct itself internationally will be diverse, and more contentious than ever. Nevertheless, views about how it should now pursue its foreign policy are likely to run along well-worn paths, and might usefully be categorised into three broad groups: isolationism, multilateralism, and unilateralism. Outright isolationists have not commanded broad political support in America. There is a contingent in Congress which regularly argues the isolationist case, scorning America's participation in international institutions such as the United Nations and the International Monetary Fund and maintaining, in effect, that the United States should draw in its horns. But national candidates such as Pat Buchanan, Ross Perot or Jerry Brown, who have criticised troop deployments, immigration policies, trade agreements and other policies from an isolationist standpoint, have failed. For isolationists, America has been foolish to think that it could help sort out the intractable conflicts of others And yet many Americans have little interest in the rest of the world, and do view foreign entanglements with distaste or suspicion. At various points in its history, such as the period between the two world wars, isolationism has played a powerful role in American politics. The attacks on New York and Washington seem bound to encourage some people to call for the United States to draw back from its extensive military commitments around the world, to reduce its links to multilateral institutions, and to concentrate on its own narrowly defined interests and security. For isolationists, America has been foolish to think that it could help sort out the intractable conflicts of others. Attempts at peacemaking or peacekeeping in conflicts that do not concern it directly have only stirred up the enmity which has led to horrific acts of terrorism. Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect behind the attack on America, was once an American ally against the Russians in Afghanistan. The more involved America becomes abroad, the more unpredictably and often perverse the results. If such views can be presented as reasonable, by a mainstream political figure, they could yet win more support. However, they are unlikely to prevail because true isolationism is no longer possible for the United States. Its economy is too entwined with the world's trading system, and international financial markets, for it to eschew any interest in, or influence on, the rest of the world. There are practical, and severe, limits to how isolationist America can become without gravely injuring itself. Critics will also point out that an isolationist withdrawal is probably exactly what the terrorists who planned the attacks this week are after, and that responding this way and abandoning allies, especially Israel, would be tantamount to admitting defeat. Multilateralists will argue precisely the opposite case: that America must be more engaged than ever in international institutions and acting in concert with its allies. America can only find genuine security, in their view, in a world where international law carries greater weight, democracy and stable government is more widespread, weapons proliferation is controlled through international agreement and governments co-operate much more closely in monitoring and capturing the kind of terrorist groups which perpetrated this week's outrages. According to this argument, it has been America's lack of consistency in its relations with allies and foes alike, and its sporadic attention to places such as the Middle East, that have allowed virulent anti-Americanism to fester. For multilateralists, many of the Bush administration's recent actions--marching out of the United Nations' conference on racism, indicating that it is determined to abandon the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, spurning the Kyoto Protocol--have been high-handed, and set exactly the wrong tone. It is not in America's long-term interest to appear arrogant, or narrowly self-interested, they will say. As the sole remaining superpower, America must take on the mantle of leadership, but also show itself co-operative and willing to compromise as well. But critics of multilateralism will retort that it is naive, too theoretical, and much the same as the now-derided "new world order" of the first Bush administration, when the collapse of the Soviet Union made it seem as if the world was safe for the spread of democracy. America should now know better. To some critics, multilateralists will themselves appear arrogant, as if they believe America can solve all the world's problems. Others will charge them with being "appeasers", ready to deal with almost anyone in order to achieve peace deals like that between the Israelis and Palestinians, which then fall apart. Although a superpower, these critics will say, America has something in common with all other countries: it must put its own national interests first. The third competing doctrine, unilateralism, would aim to do this. Unilateralists will argue that America must clearly define its national priorities, rather than embrace the woolly abstractions of the multilateralists, and then act to meet these goals, even if this sometimes means ignoring allies, breaking international law or breaching past agreements. America, they believe, should be wary of becoming embroiled in the quarrels and conflicts of others. It should only use military force when its interests are directly at stake. But, most of all, it should not be afraid to deploy those forces when attacked. Only America can protect itself. Eventually, the unilateralists themselves may come to seem naive. Can even America rely solely on its own defences in such an interconnected world? Unilateralism, tempered with diplomacy where possible, seems to be the approach of the Bush administration, although statements by its top officials, including Mr Bush himself, have sometimes been so contradictory that it is difficult to discern a coherent philosophy. As America struggles to find a response to this week's attacks, unilateralism will clearly hold sway. America's NATO allies have pledged their full support. Even if they have reservations about America's response--a bombing of Afghanistan for example--that is unlikely to weigh very heavily with Washington. But bombing terrorists, or those who are thought to harbour them, is unlikely to make America more secure from further attacks. In fact, it is likely to have the opposite effect. Eventually, the unilateralists themselves may come to seem naive. Can even America rely solely on its own defences in such an interconnected world? Can it define its national interests as distinct and separate from those of other democratic nations? Can it expect allies always to stand shoulder to shoulder with it in times of crisis if it ignores their advice whenever it likes? Can it confine its interventions abroad to situations where its own interests can be clearly identified and narrowly defined? The terrorist attacks in New York and Washington seem to raise all these questions. Nevertheless, in response to them, unilateralists seem bound to prevail for the time being. But they, too, will have critics to answer.

Moon, this is the article I referred to. Again, I was commenting on viewer reaction--not the BBC's excuses. BBC sorry over anti-US TV audience LONDON (Reuters) - The head of the BBC, Greg Dyke, has apologised for broadcasting a live discussion programme in which audience members blamed U.S. foreign policy for Tuesday's terror attacks. More than 2,000 viewers complained after seeing the former U.S. Ambassador to Britain, Philip Lader, brought close to tears after attempts to express his sadness over the attacks were shouted down by people expressing anti-American views. "On balance, I think it was an inappropriate programme to broadcast live just two days after the attacks in the United States and I would like to apologise to viewers who were offended by it," Dyke said in a statement. The scenes on the Question Time programme on Thursday night prompted Dyke, the BBC's Director General, to add: "With hindsight this programme should have been recorded and edited before it was broadcast." "I have today spoken to Philip Lader, and apologised for any distress the programme may have caused him," Dyke said. One audience member had asked whether the attacks were the result of a failure of US foreign policy "with millions of people around the world despising the American nation," according to the Independent newspaper. Mr Lader, who was slow hand clapped by some members of the audience, was tearful. "I find it hurtful that you are suggesting that a majority of the world despises the United States," he said according to news sources. The Sun newspaper said that one Arab woman replied: "It is the American government which is talking about war." The programme's presenter, David Dimbleby, struggled to control the discussion and tempers became raised, according to the BBC. The Corporation said that many of those who complained about the programme said the audience seemed to contain a disproportionate number of people with anti-American views. The BBC said that the programme tried to pick audiences with a broad range of views and had hoped to stage a frank discussion about the attacks.

Mari in the balance of things, there is a stronger anti-American view in general, therefore the balance was probably tilted correctly. A NEW WORLD OF DISORDER Globalization is a far off ideal. This is the real world, I hope world leaders get hip to the beat. I am just waiting to see when the call comes to the European "allies" who will respond. An interesting article, Liz. And I don't usually agree with the views of The Economist.

So many articles I have read this morning, talk about how Bush and his "take it or leave it" arrrogant approach to world affairs, is partially responsible for the horrors of last Tuesday. Aren't these authors forgetting, that the ball for the horrific events of Sep 11, started rolling long before Bush came to power ? These hijackers were tucked away at their Florida flight schools when Bill Clinton was still in power and Bush Jr was just another politican. Clinton by the way, did a damm sight more to end terrorism than any other US President in history, in my homeland of Ireland. Pro US feelings probably run higher in Ireland, than in any other European country.

Everyone, I can assure you that from what I have heard, discussions on the radio, television, with people, ordinary people in the street, Politicians of all parties, no one is anti- American, you have our full and unqualified support, of that I am certain, I have heard no dissenters. Everyone in the UK is appalled and shocked by last week's tragedy, who would not be.

Ann, One can have anti-American views and be appalled and shocked by last week's tragedy. The point is that in general that's the feeling in Europe. Pro US feelings probably run higher in Ireland, than in any other European country. Agreed! Aren't these authors forgetting, that the ball for the horrific events of Sep 11, started rolling long before Bush came to power? I agree again,Beth, but don't forget that the majority of the media in Europe is secular and socialist. That says it all!

Moon, in general, what's the feeling in Europe? anti American? as a European, I beg to disagree. Maybe there aren't as many Europeans on this board as on some of the other groups I'm in, but the out-pouring of feelings from all over Europe, indeed the world, has been amazing to see. And does questioning what a government does make you anti that govt? I don't think so, in fact I think its the essence of democracy. However it must be noted that it is no more correct to say "Europeans think ..." than it would be to say "Americans think ..." and to say that there is a sole European view would be incorrect. I suggest, very hesitantly, that there might be differences between English speaking and non English speaking nations - Beth would you say that's fair? BTW the mainstream media in the UK is far from socialist, despite what the Daily Bellylaugh would have us believe.

"The Corporation said that many of those who complained about the programme said the audience seemed to contain a disproportionate number of people with anti-American views. " "Anti- people" are the ones that are mostly motivated to appear on those shows and most of them have hidden agendas. Ann, I know that the majority of the UK friends don't have those feelings. I have been listening to TV this aft and now is the time that all the special interest groups are gonna come out fighting.Get ready to hear from: the environmentalists, the animal rights people,pro -life, NOW, the various political parties, the extreme religious right. This is after all a democracy. Everyone has an opinion. This came yesterday from a British Theatre Newsletter: "To all of our US subscribers, I know I speak for everyone else when I send you our deepest sympathies. Whether one agrees with US foreign policy or not, no one can condone mass murder or be unmoved by the scale of the tragedy which has struck your nation. I love New York and have many friends there. I am unable to express the depth of my horror at what has happened. Today, as I drove near my home, I saw some young children had set what in the UK we call a "jumble sale" on a grassed area. They were selling their toys and books to raise money for the American Red Cross and a US flag flew over the tables. I think that says far more than I can." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We don't all agree with every foreign policy decision that is made, but to say we deserved the tragedy as that article intimated is barbaric.

Moon, in general, what's the feeling in Europe? anti American? as a European, I beg to disagree. One can have anti-American views and be appalled and shocked by last week's tragedy. The point is that in general that's the feeling in Europe. I will stop repeating myself here as this point does not seem to get through. And does questioning what a government does make you anti that govt? I don't think so, in fact I think its the essence of democracy. To be truly "democratic" you should present both points of view. Unfortunately, and again I repeat, the majority of the media in Europe is secular and socialist. And it comes off very one-sided. I will add that I am very familiar with the Italian and French Media.

Rob, my sympathies. Warmest Hugs on New Zealand's loss. Sorry you multinationals, but rolling over and playing dead will just play into their hands. If we don't stop it, they will take over the world. Good luck! Perhaps you don't want our help next time YOUR war starts?! I think I will go back to geology and astronomy where some rationality reigns.

I think I will go back to geology and astronomy where some rationality reigns. LOL, Marcia! I don't wish to be misunderstood. I think everyone should join forces with the US to fight this war. I would like it to be a united effort and I was only questioning whether it will be. Whether the European allies will join the US? I hope to God that they will. There is no socialist/secular blood in my veins!