(Rob)MSG 436 sums up just about every country capable of providing aid bar New Zealand. Do we not exist? - I copied that information from a couple of different sites. It is entirely possible that I missed New Zealand :-( -- or it was not on the lists I used -- but I looked around and found this: NEW ZEALAND: Has offered the use of Special Air Services commandos and New Zealand intelligence resources in any action against those responsible for the terrorist attacks. ----------------- Here's to New Zealand: �God of nations at Thy feet In the bonds of love we meet. Hear our voices, we entreat, God defend our Free Land. Guard Pacific's triple star� And why if it "can be found on two large islands and a host of smaller islands" is it called "triple star"? (Gee, I hope the lyrics are correct!)

This is really spooky I just received by email : a.. A flight number from one of the planes that hit one of the twin towers was Q33NY. b.. In MS Word or Wordperfect, type in that flight number (in capitals) - Q33NY c.. Enlarge the font size to 26 and then change the font to Wingdings or Wingdings1

This is really spooky I just received by email : a.. A flight number from one of the planes that hit one of the twin towers was Q33NY. b.. In MS Word or Wordperfect, type in that flight number (in capitals) - Q33NY c.. Enlarge the font size to 26 and then change the font to Wingdings or Wingdings1

Sorry..for phantom postings

Hi all I thought I would post this as my own perspective on the Taliban, the case with the Muslim population world wide, the case of the Middle East and the possible effect on the world economy. My perspective comes from having talked to Mum and Dad who have been to Pakistan and Afghanistan, from learning and research I did on my own accord on the Middle East powder keg, from Political Science and from Geography where we examined the United States foreign policy (not as applied to a Middle Eastern nation). In 1979 the country of Nicaragua was ripe for revolt, with a regime in power despised by the people and in command of a military that was beginning to lean toward the people. The regime was recognised by the United States among other countries and it allowed environmentally unfriendly practices to be maintained by foreign companies of mainly Western origin. A politician named Sandinista however began a revolution the following year that swept him into power with the support of the people of Nicaragua. It was a socialist government (NOT COMMUNIST)that formed and immediately began instituting sweeping reform basic social welfare, health, education, and economic programmes the latter of which were based on principles of environmental sustainability. The program involved the passing of the first ever environmental laws for the country which restricted the amount of forest that could be logged and set standards for mines. Someone in the Ronald Reagan found out and pressed the President into allowing the CIA to wage government sponsored crime in the country by burning down the forests, and funding anti Sandinista factions to topple the government. The secretly funded war that CIA agents waged in the country crippled Nicaragua at the one time when it was making it's first substantial economic progress ever. The same President decreased spending on just about everything to fund a huge programme of capital expenditure on the United States military which had operatives in Afghanistan fighting the Soviets, who were immediately withdrawn without any gratitude to Afghanistan (or Pakistan from where they were based) as soon as the Soviets withdrew. Pakistan inherited many problems created by the sudden United States departure which to some extent the Pakistani government could not have satisfactorily sorted out itself. That upset many Muslims and since the United States is a powerful ally of Israel whose Jews are age old foes of the Muslims, the United States became a target of anger. None of this ever justified terrorism on ANY scale let alone the scale of last weeks attacks, but it may have been part of a trigger for the strikes on New York and Washington D.C. Osama bin Laden has begun a holy war and I suspect that the Middle East with it's sharp divisions between Arabs and Israelis, Muslims and Jews has the capacity to become a giant conflagration of war if certain issues are not sorted out. The entire Western World is at fault to some extent (United States, Britain, Australia, France, Germany, Canada, New Zealand and like countries)on this issue. We take the oil of those countries to drive our economies while putting minimal investment back in by mploying people at dirt cheap rates in some cases and this is not an exaggeration NZ$1 (US$.44c) a day. We treat their environments with contempt and make no effort to clean up the mess, and we contribute to the cycle of poverty that ensures these countries STAY poor. New Zealand is at fault because we get shirts and clothes really cheaply from Indonesia (a Muslim nation with 200 million people), and probably places like Pakistan and India. We expect them to be democratic and freedom when we can at TIMES hardly call the governments of our nations freedom loving either. I think there is a low but very REAL chance that a showdown sometime in the next few decades between the West and Islam is looming, and I think it may engulf at least the entire Middle East when it does come. So how did this mess come about?? In part Western consumerism is to blame for the economic ills and lack of investment in the countries where we have set up Multi-national corporations, and in part to misguided policies passed by the governments of those nations who have large Muslim populations. What can we do?? All countries have a role to play in this though the largest role will be that of the United States, because it takes the most out of the Islamic nations. United States Foreign policy on things like trade is going to have to change or it risks permanently damaging relations with the entire Islamic world. Changes need not be sweeping but they need to be on things like free trade (without tariffs), and a concept of "fair trade" that involves trade deals that disadvantage neither side are being promoted by some. How the Department of State sees environmental protocols will have to change as it is hurting traditional European friends/allies as much as it hurts poorer nations. People, I know that this sounds like a lot but in reality, it is not all that much in comparison with the gains to be had from a peaceful world. I know that my views are greatly different from some and that so soon after the terrorist attacks it may hurt to hear this, but you will hear sooner or later anyway when the world looks at WHY the social conditions favoured the faceless cowards who stormed the aircraft that were used in the terrorist strikes. It is time for people to realise that Western nations cannot always get away with what they want, and that sooner or later someone with a monumental hatred for what we stand for is going to strike. We can strike back and strike hard, but it is as much about prevention as it is about anything else. Finally, I have seen in documentaries and read in techno-thrillers about terrorists and now I have seen terrorism in action, and I can tell you that I want it dead as much as anyone else. The Taliban has announced it is preparing for a holy war just as you announced a war of some sort. I support the war in that it will show a united front which is clearly not what the terrorists had envisioned but there are limits to it all. At the end of the day we Westerners are going to have to make some sacrifices to our material wealth, because plainly to stop the social conditions that support this sort of evil, nothing less will do. Rob

Secret memo reveals US plan to overthrow Taliban regime Friday September 21, 2001 The Guardian The US government is pressing its European allies to agree to a military campaign to topple the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and replace it with an interim administration under United Nations auspices. Diplomatic cables from the Washington embassy of a key Nato ally, seen by the Guardian, report that the US is keen to hear allied views on "post-Taliban Afghanistan after the liberation of the country". The embassy cable reveals that the US administration is bent on force to evict the Taliban from power because of the shelter it has offered Osama bin Laden, named by the White House as prime suspect for the New York and Washington atrocities on September 11. The Guardian has also learned that two large US Hercules transport aircraft landed in Tashkent, capital of the former Soviet republic of Uzbekistan, on Tuesday loaded with surveillance equipment to be installed along the northern Afghan border. The secret landing represented a radical departure since it appeared to herald the deployment of squadrons of US fighters at Uzbekistan's sprawling airfield at Termez, directly on the border. Such a build-up would incur the wrath of Russia which views the central Asian republics as its backyard. .......................... The US strategy to depose the Taliban regime is based on more than military thinking. A further plank appears to entail supporting the campaign of the exiled 86-year-old monarch of Afghanistan, King Zahir Shah, to return to power by encouraging the guerrilla army of the Northern Alliance opposition to fall in behind him. Complete article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,555530,00.html

At the end of the day we Westerners are going to have to make some sacrifices to our material wealth, because plainly to stop the social conditions that support this sort of evil, nothing less will do. Good point, Rob. the US is keen to hear allied views on "post-Taliban Afghanistan after the liberation of the country". Some people may find this statement very arrogant. From syndicated columnist JONATHAN POWER Is it possible for America to say 'Sorry'? September 20, 2001 LONDON - How should the United States fight Osama bin Laden? It could start by saying sorry. Despite two centuries of rapid immigration pulling in people from all over the world, America remains a predominantly Christian nation. It is not a Jewish one and certainly not an Islamic one. It draws its inspiration from another book, mightier, it believes, than the Old Testament or the Koran, although it shares common roots with both these religions and worships the same God. If Christianity is not about saying sorry and turning the other cheek what, at the end of the day, is so special about it? We have a lot to be sorry for. After all it was Christian societies that practised slavery. It was a Christian society that tolerated the long persecution and then the obliteration of the Jews. (Islamic societies, even in their worst times, have never set about the extermination of the Jewish people.) And in a more recent era it is Christian societies which stirred up war in Africa in their quest for Cold War allies, destroyed Afghanistan, the scorched refuge of bin Laden, in a misplaced and unnecessary attempt to aid the resistance to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and allowed the legitimate desire of the Jewish people to own their own state to degenerate into the contemporary world's worst example of military occupation and imperialistic land acquisition. Perhaps it seems extraordinary that a political writer should have nothing better to say than "say sorry". In a week when innocent bodies in New York and Washington are being buried, when children cry all night for their lost parents, when lonely widows and widowers ask themselves how they will ever take another step forward through life, is this the time for contrition? It is hard to make the argument, that I know. But where does hatred take us, where does revenge, where does it end if, as President George Bush says, "there are no rules"? Do we want to make the situation worse or do we want to take a momentous leap of imagination and reach out to make it better? The military solution, however sympathetically one looks at it, appears at the very least counterproductive. As a recent publication by the hard headed International Institute for Strategic Studies argued it, going after the Taleban regime in Afghanistan will likely destabilise its friendly neighbour Pakistan and throw a nuclear-armed country into the hands of the militants. Beyond that, what would be the point of inflaming Islamic societies everywhere if it led to the fall of the fundamentalist (but friendly) government of Saudi Arabia? If Saudi Arabia were ruled in a fashion true to its Wahhabi ultra- fundamentalist creed not only would there be no U.S. troops on Saudi soil, it would be an end to the (uneasy) coalition against Saddam Hussein, there would be a cataclysmic shortfall in western oil supplies, and the turning of Saudi missiles from pointing towards Iraq in the direction of Israel instead. It would also probably push Saudi Arabia to develop nuclear weapons to put on the nose of its nuclear-capable rockets it bought from China, and this to threaten Israel with. Is America going to occupy Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to forestall that scenario? Then the house would really fall in. The reason America has reached this fork in the road is because, as with so many other issues, America has put off biting the bullet on hard problems. Politicians and the media have connived to keep the populace ignorant of what is going on in the world. Only in extreme times of emergency - such as the current one and the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait- is there an intense effort made to educate public opinion, and then that is done at a fever pitch with truth and objectivity being given short shrift. Yet all over the world there are silent emergencies that have continued to be combated half heartedly, whilst they have developed a head of power that in the end steamrollers all modest solutions. This is as true of global warming as it is of the Israeli settlement policy on Palestinian land. This is as true of the spread of AIDS and other highly infectious diseases as it is of the West's over-consumption of energy. This is as true of the proliferation of nuclear weapons, for want of a disarmament lead from the ex-Cold War nuclear powers, as it is of the Western tolerance of child labour in factories making their consumer goods. This is as true of children dying in Africa and other Third World countries for want of pure drinking water and the lack of education of young girls as it is of the ubiquitous use of torture because of the ever slow response of Western governments to pre-empt deteriorating human rights situations, indeed often propping up repressive regimes with financial credits and arms sales. (And, by the way, where would America try a captured bin Laden if not before the International Criminal Court to which it is bitterly opposed?) To lay all these problems at America's feet is to ignore Europe's own culpability. The old continent, if perhaps on occasion wiser and better informed about the rest of the world, has only intermittently done much better. Now it must wake up too. To say sorry is but the beginning. Then the work must start. To read more articles from all over the world go here: http://www.transnational.org/sitemap.html

Did anyone see a teleprompter last night for Pres. Bush? He couldn't have memorized and delivered the speech so well. It was the best he's ever done live.

MaryW: A flight number from one of the planes that hit one of the twin towers was Q33NY. Don't let Wingdings experts mess with your head, Mary. The flights that hit the towers were numbered 11 and 77, the other two hijacked flights 175 and 93. Also, the Nostradamus lines being broadcast around the Web ("twin brothers shall be rent in fire, yadda, yadda") are made up.

Sorry? I haven't read the above article and don't feel the inclination to. We have Jesse Jackson trying to get monies to the offspring of slaves? I'm sorry, but that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. If that's the case then, perhaps we should start doling money out to every Japanese American who were sent into camps during WW2 or the Koreans during the Korean War? Hell, we should pay Britain for "allowing" us to win the war in 1776. Why should WE say sorry? We are a nation built on different ethnicities and backgrounds. Slavery made this country, it built our civil rights, and our Bill of Rights, out of bad, some good may come. What we have is a nation (Afghanistan) who is run by fundamentalist nutjobs. The Taliban is EVIL. They are trying to infiltrate as many countries as they can with their idealogy mumbo jumbo. They are not Muslims? They are whacked out religious freaks who say they speak the word or Allah. And Allah comandeered them to take our airplanes, use them as missiles, against CIVILIANS, who were just working, like the rest of the world. Not plotting to overtake a government, or throw their religious beliefs on everyone else. I know I'm just ranting, but we don't owe anyone an apology. Our governmental policies are in use because they work. Iraq says it's our fault. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell (GO AWAY BOTH OF YOU) blame our moral values. They said it was our fault. No one, absolutely NO ONE, deserves to die the way helpless civilians dies on September 11, 2001. end of rant.

A summary of OBL's finances in The Times http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320010-2001325324,00.html

David Kline: If we end up bombing the Afghan capital (or other populated targets), it'll be because Washington lacked the patience and willingness to ally with freedom-loving Afghans in the country and gather the human intelligence needed to locate Bin Laden and his Taliban benefactors. In other words, it'll be a de facto admission of defeat. If you really want Bin Laden, you have to: * Use local people to locate him. * Move swiftly without alerting him or his Taliban supporters (which probably means employing a joint US-Afghan (anti-Taliban) team. If we just start flying around in Bin Laden's general area, using electronic intelligence gathered from his communications to hone in on him, he'll be gone before his tea gets cold. And I mean *gone.* In that part of the country -- a lot like Utah only hotter and more difficult to traverse -- there are thousands of little cave hideouts and hundreds of Taliban-dominated villages where he could hide out and slink away. The borders near Quetta, Pakistan are completely porous -- even if the Pak's tried with all their might to seal them, it couldn't be done. There are also nomadic tribespeople moving in caravans constantly across both Iran's and Pakistan's borders with Afghanistan where a guy in a turban with a half-dozen bodyguards could easily blend in. So "chasing" Bin Laden on the run won't work. You've got to find him and move in quickly, **before** he runs, and for that you need anti-Taliban Afghan intelligence. There's simply no other way to attack him effectively. Of course, if Washington just wants to blow off steam and waste a few hundred or thousand innocent Afghans, then none of the above applies. It'll look good on TV, maybe, but it won't get Bin Laden or the Taliban. A finger of David Kline reveals: I'm a journalist and author, former war correspondent (until, genius that I am, I finally figured out I should find something safer to do) and sometime business strategy consultant. I used to be a HotWired columnist and Upside columnist till they gave me the boot for ideological impurity. But I'm still a commentator on NPR's "Marketplace" business program and I'm still writing books. So I guess I'm not a complete screw-up. My first book was published by Dutton in 1995 -- "Road Warriors: Dreams and Nightmares Along the Information Highway." My latest will be published by Harvard Business School Press in the Fall of 1999 -- "Rembrandts in the Closet: Wielding Intellectual Property for Competitive Advantage." I would add that he's been on the scene in Afghanistan as a war correspondent.

(Moon) It was the best he's ever done live. Practice makes perfect and so does good coaching. I was grateful he didn't appear to be sounding out the words as he has in earlier speeches. (Laura) perhaps we should start doling money out to every Japanese American who were sent into camps during WW2 Psst, Laura, it was done. You've never heard of reparation? =8-O

David Kline (dkline) Thu 13 Sep 01 08:30 I'd like to try to clear up some mis-information about how the US supposedly "supplied", "trained" or "created" Bin Laden. I reported from Afghanistan from 1979-1987, and I can tell you absolutely that such was not the case. The US supplied arms & money to a variety of factions of the mujahadeen, but did so only through the Pakistani intelligence serevices (SIS), which funneled most arms to Gulbadin Hekmatyar, an ideological precursor to the Taliban and types like Bin Laden. Pakistan had its own reasons for doing so -- these fanatics did very little fighting against the Russians (unlike genuine leaders like Ahmed Shah Massoud), preferring to fight other resistance factions -- and I and others warned US officials of the consequences of allowing arms to be directed towards the fundamentalists. But US officials insisted their "hands were tied" in this matter, and whether true or not, there it is. How did the Taliban win? Consider that Afghan society, almost entirely tribal rather than "national" toi begin with, was utterly destroyed by the Soviets durinbg the war. 1-tenth the population killed; 1/3 of the survivords forced to flee as refuygees. The systematic destruction of Afghan intelligentsia by Soviet-directed police forces resulted in a statistical decline in the literacy rate. Into this vacumn the Taliban, financed and armerd by Saudi extremists, entered.

A lot more of David Klines thoughts on this: http://www.spring.net/dkline.html

Hey, that Jonathan Power is some dude. Am I reading: Get a Marshall Plan organized for Afghanistan? Wonder how many votes that would get. *shaking head*

[from the Hollywood Reporter] Studios tighten security following FBI terror alert Sep. 21, 2001 Terrorists leveled threats Thursday against Hollywood's major film studios, prompting each to seriously reconsider existing security measures that suddenly seemed far too mild for the current political climate. Some studios partially evacuated their facilities late in the afternoon. Internal memos, usually in the form of an e-mail issued by high-ranking studio executives, buzzed throughout Hollywood on Thursday, warning of threats of mass destruction, presumably from Islamic terrorists. Insiders said studio heads first learned of the threat from MPAA president Jack Valenti, who was briefed by U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, who specifically mentioned a threat of a suicide bomber. An FBI statement released late Thursday, though, was more vague about the exact nature of the threat. The threat's purpose, though, was specifically laid out by the FBI: If the U.S. attacks Afghanistan, a studio will be bombed. "Today the FBI provided a threat advisory to the major movie studios in Los Angeles," FBI spokesman Matt McLaughlin said. "The uncorroborated threat states that a film studio in California could be the target of a terrorist bombing attack in retaliation for any possible bombing attacks by the United States against Afghanistan. In an abundance of caution, the FBI has provided this threat advisory. The FBI is working closely with the studios regarding this matter." Insiders said that those making the threat will target a major film studio because American values and culture -- anathema to fundamentalist Islamic terrorists -- are distributed throughout the world via Hollywood movies.

Here is a report that Osama has been rushed toward the Chinese border by the Taliban: http://www.frontierpost.com.pk/main.asp?id=2&date1=9/21/2001 This one indicates that he left even before the shura met. http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2001-daily/21-09-2001/main/main2.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ Last summer, while the American media kept the people distracted with "All Condit All The Time", the US Government was informing other governments that we would be at war in Afghanistan, no later than October! How lucky for our government that just when they are planning to invade another country, for the express purpose of removing that government, a convenient "terrorist" attack occurs to anger Americans into support for an invasion. Sound impossible? Not when you consider that accused terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden is actually an employee of the CIA, who trained and financed him. And guess who paid for the training of the Hijackers? YOU DID, according to NEWSWEEK and MSNBC. From Alleged Hijackers May Have Trained at U.S. Bases The Pentagon has turned over military records on five men to the FBI By George Wehrfritz, Catharine Skipp and John Barry NEWSWEEK Sept. 15 U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes that were used in Tuesdays terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s. Leonard Pitts column: http://www.contracostatimes.com/opinion/columnists/pitts/stories/xxpitts_20010921.htm "LET'S GET something straight. The events of Sept. 11 did not happen because we did something wrong. Or because we somehow "deserved" them. In recent days, I've heard that argument or variations thereof from several friends and dozens of e-mail correspondents. This must be what "they" feel like when we bomb "them," says one. Perhaps they acted out of deep hurt, says another. Maybe this is necessary payback for American arrogance, says yet another. And then, of course, there's the ever-reliable Jerry Falwell, who said on "The 700 Club" last week that the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon represent God's verdict on gay rights, feminism, abortion and the ACLU. In a word, no. To all of the above, to all the tortured reflection and moral distress: no. Hell no.".... "Last week happened, pure and simple, because certain religious extremists hate us. They hate us because our foreign policy has been supportive of Israel. They hate us because we helped repel Saddam Hussein from Kuwait in 1991. But in the larger sense, they hate us because their children want blue jeans, Britney Spears videos and the chance to be like Mike. They hate us because we consume bacon and beer. They hate us because American women wear bikinis and speak their minds. They hate us because we are the biggest, the wealthiest, the most influential, the most powerful. They hate us because we are not them and, moreover, because they are not us. They hate us because they think the deity requires it. They hate us because."

It may be true that James Woods saw the hijackers: 09/21/2001 - Updated 03:07 PM ET Investigators: Hijackers repeatedly scouted flights By Kevin Johnson, Toni Locy and Richard Willing, USA TODAY The terrorists who staged last week's murderous attacks apparently practiced for months by repeatedly riding the flights they later hijacked, learning jet crews' patterns, counting passenger loads and testing airline security, the FBI now believes. The 19 hijackers, probably aided by accomplices who are still alive, began scouting for flights to hijack and making dry runs as early as April, law enforcement sources say. Some of the hijackers are believed to have entered the USA then. Authorities confirmed the finding by checking flight manifests and airport security camera tapes. They also interviewed airline employees. Investigators had suspected that the four hijacked flights � two from Boston and one each from Newark, N.J., and Dulles International Airport in suburban Washington � had been carefully chosen, in part because each was full of fuel for a cross-country trip and had a relatively light passenger load. The lack of passengers would have made it easier for the four or five Muslim extremists on each jet to keep those aboard under control and overwhelm the cockpit crews. Authorities say they also now believe that the killers scouted other flights as hijacking candidates but eliminated them from consideration. The findings add texture to the portrait that is emerging of the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. The hijackings, sources say, were meticulously planned and required large sums of money, dozens of helpers and coordination among teams. Investigators have not ruled out the possibility that a central figure who set the attacks in motion still could be at large. � Copyright 2001 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/21/hijackers-usat.htm

From the NY Times, more on the hijackers' identities: September 21, 2001 Confusion Over Names Clouds Identities of Attackers on Jets By NEIL MacFARQUHAR CAIRO, Sept. 20 � Many of the 19 hijacking suspects in the terror attacks last week remain shrouded in confusion, with almost nothing known about some and up to five apparent cases of mistaken identity. The F.B.I. list of hijacking suspects does include the names of at least six missing Saudi Arabian men who left their country, ostensibly to join the Islamic fighters battling the Russians in Chechnya, plus four others whose parents have lost contact with them. But the lack of the details about the suspects, plus the assertions of mistaken identity, have left their parents refusing to mourn and Saudi Arabian officials dismissive of the entire list. "The haste in publishing the names of suspects in the attacks has made the media fall into the error of involving innocent people, especially Saudis," Prince Mit'eb bin Abdullah, the deputy commander of the Saudi National Guard, complained to reporters in Riyadh. The use of wrong names and pictures may indicate that the hijackers filched the identities of fellow Saudis. In the United States, Robert Mueller, the director of the F.B.I., acknowledged Thursday that there were questions about the identities of several of the hijackers on the list. "We have several hijackers whose identities were those of the names on the manifest, we have several others who are still in question," Mr. Mueller said while touring the crash site in Pennsylvania of one hijacked plane. An official at the Saudi Embassy in Washington said there were five mistaken identities on the list, adding that all the men were alive and living abroad. Saudi officials say part of the problem stems from the proliferation of similar names in Saudi Arabia, as well as the numerous varieties of spelling them in English. One of the most common surnames on the F.B.I. list is Alshehri. But in English various members of the clan might spell it Alshahri or Alshehiri or Al-Shehri, entangling search efforts. Far more difficult is the fact that the country's huge tribes repeat the same names over and over again. Saudis use at least three names: their given name, their father's name, and their tribal name. Between the father's name and the tribal name, many also insert the name of a fourth, favored ancestor. But even brothers do not always choose the same name. To narrow the search to specific individuals, Saudi officials said they needed at least one and preferably two middle names. What they are given to work with now is a lot of Joe Smiths. For example, there might be thousands and thousands of people with the name Waleed Alshehri, one of the men whose name appears on the list of suspects who rammed the first plane into the World Trade Center. For a while, suspicion focused on the son of a Saudi diplomat with that name who had studied at Embry- Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida, but his father said he was alive and working as a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines. The confusion apparently stems from the fact that the F.B.I. is matching the names on the passenger manifests to students who have trained in flying. In the southern Saudi town of Khamis Mushait, however, there is an established businessman named Mohammed Al-Shehri who is missing 2 of his 11 sons. One of them is Waleed Mohammed Al-Shehri. Mr. Waleed, 21, was studying to be a teacher, while his brother Wail, 26, already had a degree in physical education and was teaching, their father told the Saudi newspaper Al- Watan. The older brother was suffering from psychological problems and kept seeking the help of clerics to perform a kind of religious exorcism to cure him, the father said. Both men disappeared in December while on a trip to seek yet more help and have not been heard from since. They had grown increasingly religious before their disappearance and spoke often about joining the fight in Chechnya, the paper quoted family friends as saying. Their pictures match those released by the F.B.I. To try to eliminate confusion, Saudi officials said they had repeatedly asked for more information on the suspects, especially longer names, but they had yet to receive it. Plus, in a few cases it appears the hijackers resorted to outright deception. A passenger using the name Abdel Aziz Al-Omari and the birth date of December 24, 1972, is listed on the manifest of the flight that hit the towers first. But a man with the same name and birth date turned up alive in Riyadh, where he told the Al Sharq Al Awsat daily that he had studied electrical engineering at University of Denver. His passport was stolen there in 1995. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/21/international/middleeast/21IDEN.html?pagewanted=print

(Suzee) It may be true that James Woods saw the hijackers: James Woods appears to be a straight shooter. If the story were materially false, I believe he would have disowned it by now. For those who are unaware of his background, he is quite intelligent and attended MIT. He left a few credits shy of graduation. He has articulately debated against Bill Bennett, the former drug czar, on Face the Nation.

Here are some interesting stats. Get out your little pad and pencil or rev' up your Excel or MS Works spreadsheet and play with these numbers. What do you se? In 1940, the US population was 132 MM, the GNP was 100 BB in constant dollars. In 1940 the US military was 500K men, maybe 300 ships, a few thousand planes. In 1945, the US military was 13.5 million men & women, we had 6000 vessels and 200K aircraft. We had spent nearly $400 BB, nearly twice the 1945 GDP. In 2001, the US military has somewhat less than 200K men & women, 300 ships, a few thousand planes. We have a population of 280 MM and a GDP of $10 trillion. Congress just appropriated $40BB for this war, half of which is earkmarked for NYC. Vietnam cost $140 BB year pop gnp military ships planes year millionsbillionsmillion thousands 1940 132 100 0.5 300 3 1945 ? 400 13.5 6000 200 2001 280 10000 0.2 300 Sorry for the gaps. It looks we need more ships, men and planes. Our gnp is now 10 trillion.

I was there when the first Taliban units were seen in Afghanistan circa 1986. They were all composed of Saudi and other foreign volunteers, and few took them very seriously since they did little actual fighting against the Russians. But they quickly allied with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hezbi Islami group -- i.e., the fundamentalist wing of the Afghan resistance -- which was receiving the bulk of US arms and aid via Pakistani intelligence (SIS). Then, amidst the confusion and infighting within the resistance following the Soviet withdrawal, the Pak's chose to channel almost all their material support to the Taliban, who used it to gain power over a divided resistance movement and a peoiple utterly exhausted by war. I'd wager that if a free & fair referendum were conducted in Afghanistan today, the Taliban would receive fewer than 5% of the votes. Their army is largely conscript, their most fervent supporters are unsophisticated teenagers insulated in Taliban religious schools. Nothing they say or do has any relationship to historic Afghan customs & attitudes.

Kathy Rockel was amazed when her United Airlines flight last weekend began with an extraordinary message from the pilot: He informed passengers how to rise up and fend off hijackers. ``If anybody stands up and is trying to take over the plane, stand up together, take whatever you have and throw it at their heads,'' she quoted the pilot as saying. ``You have to aim for their faces so they have to defend themselves.'' The pilot also said passengers could fight hijackers by throwing blankets over their heads, wrestling them to the ground and holding them until he landed, Rockel said. And referring to the ``we the people'' preamble to the Constitution, she recalled, he said, ``We will not be defeated.'' ``Everybody on the plane was applauding,'' said Rockel, a medical transcriptionist traveling from Denver to Washington, D.C., Sept. 15 on United's Flight 564. ``People had tears coming down their faces. It was as if we had a choice here, that if something were to happen we're not completely powerless.'' Continued @: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010921/us/attacks_taking_charge_1.html

A few new topics have been created in the news conference to deal with some more specific aspects of the World Trade Center attack and the ensuing global conflict: 43 526 Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center 44 0 Media coverage of WTC attack and the aftermath 45 0 What can we do? What should we do? 46 0 suspension of civil liberties as a response to terrorism 47 0 coping with terrorism and a world gone to war 48 0 economic consequences of global war and terrorism 49 0 Finding Osama Bin Laden 50 0 What is the impact of the wtc crisis where you live?

"A lot of thinking needs to be done, and perhaps is being done in Washington and elsewhere, about the ineptitude of American intelligence and counter- intelligence, about options available to American foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East, and about what constitutes a smart program of military defense." - Susan Sontag "As for America's friends, they have rallied around us with alacrity. On Wednesday, the NATO allies, for the first time ever, invoked the mutual- defense clause of the alliance's founding treaty, formally declaring that "an armed attack" against oneQand what happened on September 11th, whether you call it terrorism or war, was certainly an armed attackQconstitutes an attack against all. This gesture of solidarity puts to shame the contempt the Bush Administration has consistently shown for international treaties and instruments, including those in areas relevant to the fight against terrorism, such as small-arms control, criminal justice, and nuclear proliferation. By now, it ought to be clear to even the most committed ideologues of the Bush Administration that the unilateralist approach it was pursuing as of last Tuesday is in urgent need of revaluation. The world will be policed collectively or it will not be policed at all." - Hendrik Hertzberg Both of these from the recent New Yorker.

A couple of notable quotes from other pieces: In the decade since the end of the Cold War, the human race has become, with increasing rapidity, a single organism. Every kind of barrier to the free and rapid movement of goods, information and people has been lowered. The organism relies increasingly on a kind of trust -- the unsentimental expectation that people, individually and collectively, will behave more or less in their rational self-interest. -- Hendrik Hertzberg How do you take "massive military action" against the infrastructure of a stateless, compartmentalized "army" of fifty, or ten times fifty, whose weapons are rental cars, credit cards, and airline tickets? The scale of the damage notwithstanding, a more useful metaphor than war is crime. The terrorists of September 11th are outlaws within a global polity. They may enjoy the corrupt protection of a state (and corruption, like crime, can be ideological or spiritual as well as pecuniary in motive). But they do not constitute or control a state and do not even appear to aspir to control one. Their status and numbers are such that the task of dealing with them should be viewed as a police matter, of the most urgent kind. As with all criminal fugitives, the essential job is to find out who and where they are. -- Hendrik Hertzberg But fly again we must; risk is a price of freedom, and walking around Brooklyn Heights that afternoon, as ash drifted in the air and cars were few and open-air lunches continued as usual on Montague Street, renewed the impression that, with all its failings, this is a country worth fighting for. Freedom, reflected in the street's diversity and daily ease, felt palpable. It is mankind's elixir, even if a few turn it to poison. -- John Updike

James Woods was shown tonight answering telephones on the "America: A Tribute to Heroes Telethon". A lot of these rock stars and musicians looked heartbroken as they played and spoke. Paul Simon just sang bridge over Troubled Water and the parade of stars rolls on. Star studded is an understatement.

David Kline again: The Taliban cannot be negotiated with. The council of clerics is more afraid of the Taliban than they are of the U.S. -- the Taliban, after all, are within actual rifle range and constitute a real and present threat, whereas the U.S. is (in their eyes) only a distant and vague *potential* threat. Hence the Council of Clerics decision. These councils, btw, historically have tended to defer to whomever had the biggest and nearest sword. Council of Clerics' decisions tend to drift with the winds of power, and have generally been considered by Afghans to be as binding and as relevant as, say, a Berkeley resolution declaring the city a "nuclear free zone." Anyone seriously wishing to capture Bin Laden or otherwise deal with the Afghan aspect of this problem effectively should not pay much attention to either Taliban or Council of Clerics edicts.

Without reading through a lot of posts to see if anyone answeed Laura, rhetorical question, we did pay reparations to the Japanese Americans we interred in WW2...$25,000 each.

Hi all Jonathan Power, MSG 508: To lay all these problems at America's feet is to ignore Europe's culpability. The older Continent, if only on occasion wiser and better informed about the rest of the world, has only intermittently done much better. Now it must wake up too. Rob: I always wondered if Britain had anything to gain from it's loyalty to the United States, aside from being assured of assistance when it got into it's own troubles. I mean, what is there to gain from always supporting the United States sanctions on Iraq, the unconditional following of the United States when it attacks the Myanmar military regime politics and so on? Does Britain have a rule of basing it's foreign policy on the United States foreign policy? The few exceptions I have noted were the Kyoto Climate Protocol, for the sake of the Protocol, Britain did not have a choice since Bush was determined not to participate and it's relationship with European nations was at stake. This is however one time when I think European were dead on target, and that Japan was wise to support the protocol. Perhaps the best thing the European nations can do is deliver warnings to their embassies in the United States, on things where a potential split is likely, and back it up with a rebuke or rebuttal (call it what you may)of the United States stand if it clashes. The foreign policy of European nations need not be blindly tied as is possibly the case in Britain, with the United States on everything. Surely in one of the most civilised areas of the world, there are people who can give their nations original foreign policy. However, the best thing that can happen is Bush dropping his very arrogant "take it or leave it" attitude which is causing splits among countries that are usually closely tied. Russia and the United States share more in common than they probably think, but Russia has a valid point on the 1972 ABM Treaty, as does Beijing on the missile shield as a whole. I would normally not agree with them on this sort of thing, so this is quite significant coming from me. The worst thing that can happen on this issue is if North Korea decides to restart it's missile program. If this happens the United States has only itself to blame, because Clinton managed to break the ice. Finally, however, Europe can bring itself and the United States to their senses by taking a hard line on things like the Missile shield (which I think is going to restart the arms race and probably bring on a limited form of Cold War). I have absolutely no time for the $30 billion white elephant it may become. So, Europe is as much at fault as it's American neighbour. Rob

The today's climate of terrorism, missile shields seem like overkill, don't they Rob? It wouldn't have helped us 9/11. This is likely to thaw out the US now that we need an international coalition, that's the only way we can combat worldwide terrorism. For a map of how countries are taking sides in this coming global conflict, see 52 1 How do the world's countries line up in the terrorism war? in the news conference.

Much of the Afghan intelligentia was systematically slaughtered between 1978-1982 by KGB-trained Afghan puppet police force. So many, in fact, that it was said to produce a statistical decline in the literacy rate of that country. Many of those that survived and did not flee the country -- e.g., stayed and fought with the resistance -- were then systematically butchered by the Taliban when they began to consolidate power. It's really a shame. There once were several million educated and modern-thinking Afghans like Tamim Ansary, the author of that wonderful article last week on why the Taliban do not respresent Afghanistan.

The above should have been attributed to David Kline.

Both of these from the recent New Yorker. Hendrik Hertzberg, Susan Sontag, John Updike,..... I only read The New Yorker for their cartoons & fiction features. I don't think that fiction authors know any more about international stategies than you or I.

LOL! Add to that list Harold Pinter...

I don't think that fiction authors know any more about international stategies than you or I. Well said, Evelyn! Now that the number of missing/dead has gone up, could someone please post a current list with the total numbers by nationalities.

Absolutely moon, I'll take Christianne Amanpour over Susan Sontag any day as a political commentator.

Fox News has an excellent page with around the world dead and missing, but it has not been updated with the latest figures. http://www.foxnews.com/projects/americaunited/wtc_maps/worldinfo.htm The most recent information: Saturday, September 22 10:33 AM SGT US toll put at 6,818 as countries report more missing NEW YORK, Sept 21 (AFP) - The death toll from the attacks on the United States stood at 6,818 Saturday after 11 more bodies were pulled from the ruins of the World Trade Center. New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Friday the number of missing could still fluctuate as officials cross check reports of missing people. More than 60 countries have now reported citizens dead or missing, mostly in New York, one of the world's most cosmopolitan cities. But despite continuing round-the-clock rescue efforts, there was now next to no chance of pulling survivors from the rubble of the World Trade Center. UNITED STATES officials have given tallies that add up to 6,818 dead or missing in all the attacks of September 11, but they have still not established the total number of their nationals among the victims 11 days after the attack. In New York, 6,585 people were killed or listed as missing from the World Trade Center disaster (comprising 252 confirmed dead and 6,333 missing, presumed dead). Workers have identified 183 bodies, including those of 34 firemen. At the Pentagon, 189 people are confirmed dead or missing. So far, 117 bodies have been recovered, of which 52 have been identified as of Friday. The Department of Defense said search and recovery operations would continue. The missing figure at both sites include the 157 passengers and crew of the two hijacked aircraft that crashed into the World Trade Center and the 64 on the one that flew into the Pentagon. Adding the 44 on the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, the number of people on the four planes is given as 265. (American Airlines flight 11, the first to hit the twin towers of the WTC, was carrying 92 passengers and crew; United Airlines flight 175, which hit the second tower, had 65 people on board; American Airlines flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was carrying 64 people; and United Airlines 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania without reaching its target, had 44 on board.) ARGENTINA said four of its nationals were missing. AUSTRALIA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead. Another 20 who were in the top floors of the World Trade Center were missing, presumed dead, and consular staff in Canberra and New York were looking for another 32 Australians reported as missing. AUSTRIA said around 40 of its nationals were missing, one of them a 25-year-old woman named only as Alexandra H. who worked in a bank in the World Trade Center. BANGLADESH said at least 50 Bangladeshis were presumed killed in the carnage at the World Trade Center, where many worked in restaurants and offices. BELGIUM said one of its nationals was missing. BRAZIL said at least 55 of its nationals were missing. BRITAIN lost around 250 of its citizens, according to New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. BULGARIA said that one of its citizens was missing. CAMBODIA said it feared that some 20 of its nationals were missing following the attacks. CANADA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead and between 35 and 40 were still missing. CHILE's New York consulate said two of its nationals were missing and feared dead, although more than 250 have been reported missing by relatives. CHINA said two Chinese nationals were killed and another was missing. A man and woman, both in their 60s, died aboard the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. Chinese authorities originally said three people had died, but the foreign ministry revised the figure, saying that a man, Chen Xiaobing, had been rescued from the lower floors of the building. A 41-year-old Chinese was reported missing. COLOMBIA's consulate in New York said two of its nationals were killed -- one aboard an American Airlines plane that slammed into the side of the twin towers -- while 10 others were missing. Earlier, Colombia's Red Cross had said that 295 people were reported missing. While 17 people worked in the twin towers, others may have been present in the area at the time. The CZECH REPUBLIC said 56 of its citizens who had been in the United States were unaccounted for. Of those, up to 15 nationals were thought to have been in New York or Washington at the time of the attacks, according to the foreign ministry. DENMARK's foreign ministry said that all of its citizens previously reported missing had turned up safe and sound and that there had therefore been no Danish casualties in the attacks. The DOMINICAN REPUBLIC said one citizen, a paramedic, was found dead and 30 are missing, according to the country's consulate in New York. ECUADOR listed seven citizens as dead, including one who was a passenger on a hijacked airliner, and 29 missing. EGYPT's ambassador to the United States said four Egyptians were feared dead. EL SALVADOR said one of its citizens died on one of the hijacked planes, and up to 100 more were missing. FINLAND said that none of its nationals were missing, having earlier said three people were unaccounted for. The Finnish consulate in New York originally said it was trying to track down 17 nationals. FRANCE said a small number of its nationals working in the World Trade Center were unaccounted for. A foreign ministry spokesman said no French dead have yet been confirmed. GAMBIA said that one of its citizens who worked in the World Trade Center was presumed dead. GERMANY said it was "highly probable" that 100 Germans had been killed in New York. Estimates of the total German toll have fallen from 600 last Friday to 270 at the weekend, and fewer than 170 by Monday evening. GHANA said "scores" of its nationals had worked in the World Trade Center and not all had been accounted for. According to private radio, at least four Ghanaians, one a woman, have been reported missing by their families. GUATEMALA said five of its citizens are missing. GUINEA lost several citizens in the attacks, according to the PANA news agency, although neither government officials nor local press could confirm the report. HONG KONG said 16 people were missing. HONDURAS said one of its nationals was killed at the trade center and that three other Honduran women were missing, but added that it had information that up to 500 Hondurans and Salvadorans worked in the towers, although not necessarily at the time of the disaster. HUNGARY said it had contacted 102 of the 143 Hungarian nationals reported missing by relatives after the attacks. The foreign ministry said it had no information indicating that any might be among the victims. INDONESIA said one of its citizens died on one of the four hijacked planes and another of its citizens was missing. IRELAND said five Irish citizens had been confirmed dead, including a woman and her four-year-old daughter who perished aboard one of the jets that hit the World Trade Center and a worker in one of the towers. More than 20 other Irish nationals were missing. ISRAEL said at least four of its nationals were presumed dead, two on the doomed flights and two in the twin towers, and another 60 were unaccounted for. A foreign ministry spokesman said the toll could still fall as more people were traced. ITALY said 10 Italian nationals were still missing, according to consular authorities. JAPAN said as many as 44 of its nationals remain unaccounted for, 20 more than officially listed as missing. Twenty-two of the presumed victims worked at Japanese-affiliated offices in the World Trade Center. One is believed to have been aboard one of the planes which crashed into them, and another is missing after United Airlines Flight 93 crashed in Pennsylvania. JORDAN said one of its nationals, who also had US citizenship, was believed to be in the World Trade Center at the time of the attack. KENYA was missing one national, a computer analyst who worked in the World Trade Center, according to local media. LEBANON said two of its nationals, including one of the suspected hijackers, are confirmed dead and four others are missing. MALAYSIA said four of its nationals working in the World Trade Center were missing. MEXICO was missing 20 nationals in the attacks on the World Trade Center, including a consular employee. The Mexican consul in New York, Salvador Beltran, said 150 Mexicans worked in the center, though media said hundreds more worked in restaurants on the lower levels and in the immediate vicinity. Tepayac, a network of Mexican community organizations, said as many as 500 Mexicans are feared dead in the collapsed towers. THE NETHERLANDS said at least three of its citizens had died. NORWAY said one tourist is unaccounted for, but there was no indication he had been at the World Trade Center. NIGERIA said one person was dead and four missing or wounded, Nigerian Consul General Tafiq Oseni said in New York. The victim was a woman working as an accountant in the World Trade Center's Windows on the World restaurant. Leading newspaper The Guardian reported, however, that the figure for missing nationals may be far higher. PAKISTAN said one Pakistani was confirmed dead and at least 200 were missing. Another 15 were injured, some seriously, after being pulled from the rubble. A government spokesman said around 650 Pakistani nationals worked in the World Trade Center. PARAGUAY said two of its citizens were missing and presumed dead. PERU lost one citizen, a New York resident who worked in the World Trade Center, according to local media, and Peruvian diplomats in the United States said another five Peruvians were missing. THE PHILIPPINES said two Filipinos were confirmed dead and 115 were missing. POLAND said five of its citizens were reported missing. PORTUGAL said five Portuguese were believed to have died in the World Trade Center. RUSSIA said 117 of its nationals were missing, believed killed.

Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:25:26 -0400 From: "cpmcnel@usit.net" To: "terry@www.spring.net" Subject: RE: WTC - How do you feel? [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ] [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ] [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ] Hi Paul, Carol Nelson here. I am in south Florida baby sitting my grandchildren. We drove down The Farm last week through hurricane Gabriella. My Daughter Kim McCusker and her husband Paul are in NYC, ground zero. They are part of the search and rescue team deployed from the Miami-Dade Area. They are both highly trained K-9 search and rescue fire fighters.They have been there about a week already and will probably not retutn until the end of next week. So we are getting first hand info on a daily basis. Not Good! I have a friend that works around the block on Broad street. She called me after the first hit and we were on the phone when the second plane hit. You could hear and feel it thru the phone lines. I heard Michael Gavin's cousin was in one of the bulidings and is missing. All the talk of WAR is so bad. So hard to hear and think about. All I can do is continue to pray for peace. Peace Carol

Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:23:33 -0700 From: Gerald Wheeler To: Paul Terry Walhus Subject: Re: WTC - How do you feel? it is now about midnight sept. 21, 2001...autumn equinox, i am in oakland california, i just finished watching the a's beat seattle in the first game of a three game series, between innings i flipped over a channel to watch what most everyone else that was watching television tonight was probably watching, the fund-raiser and tribute to those who died ten days ago in the attacks on the wtc and the pentagon and the final plane that was brought down most likely by a group of courageous passengers who took on the hijackers and crashed that plane in a field in pennsylvania, so many heroes keep emerging from the center of the tragedy, and what a powerful assembly there on the tv, i am moved by the sense that we as a nation, for the first time in my memory, have been brought together like never before, and it's real and it's full of power and authenticity and i catch a glimmer of something inside of me that suddenly says that america really is worth saving, and i let that glimmer grow into more of a flame and i see that for all of its' faults, there just isn't anything or any other place like this place and the freedom that it provides everyone of us who share its' soil...i think about what to do about achieving justice and how it is a good idea to take the time to let things settle in the mind and calm that which cries out for revenge, because revenge is knee-jerk and full of anger and confusion and does not offer real satisfaction because its' results are uneven and because an uneven response creates more suffering...i think about who or what the enemy really is and i come to the conclusion that the enemy is not the taliban or hezbollah or the islamic jihad or osama bin laden or fundamentalist christians or fundamentalist jews or fundamentalist moslems or jerry falwell or yassar arrafat or north korea or chevron oil or suicide bombers or the bible or the koran...it is evil...the real enemy is simply evil, evil in whatever form and shape it may incarnate into at any time or place, and i think about how it is imperative that we learn to recognize evil in all its' forms and whenever and wherever it appears, and that we take sufficient care to respond in ways in which its' effects are cancelled and diffused, and this applies to the everyday, right under our nose kinds of evil, out to the broader, affecting all of humanity kinds as well, and that how we respond will determine the outcome of events in the future, and i think about what that means to me individually and i am reminded of how grateful i am that i have a way to get calm, that i learned how to meditate thirty years ago and try to practice on a regular basis, oh it doesn't always prevent one from getting caught in the cross-fire but sometimes it seems like it helps slow down the bullets so that you can see where to not step, non-action thru action, and makes you aware that everything begins in the mind, everything, so the key is to tame the fury of the mind, and transform pain and hardship into compassion and real strength by doing so, we individually hold the answer to our situation but to see that clearly we must first conquer the fury...om mani padme om! --all the best, gerald wheeler

David Kline (dkline) Sat Sep 22 '01 (12:11) 49 lines There's also a difference between saying the US "created" Bin Laden and the Taliban and saying -- much more correctly -- that our policies *contributed* (mostly indirectly) to their emergence and rise to power. The US funded the already-fighting Afghan resistance to Soviet occupation beginning in the early 1980s -- as well it should have. But the problem was, beginning in about 1983-84 and despite warnings from many people (l'il ol' me included), the US allowed the Pakistani intelligence services (SIS) to channel the great bulk of that aid to the fanatical fundamentalist wing of the resistance, called Hezbi Islami. (And just to be clear, the fundamentalists did almost NO fighting against the Russians during the war. They concentrated their fire on rival resistance groups such as Ahmed Shah massoud's "Northern Alliance.") The Paks had their own reasons for doing this, of course, including influence within SIS from Pakistan's own emerging fundamentalists (Jamiatt Islami), as well as a desire to see a liberated but weak Afghanistan. But still, it was our guns and money, and we should have funneled it equally to all forces actually fighting for liberation from the USSR, or if we were really smart, mostly to forces (such as Massoud or Mr. Rabbani or even the Gailani clan) with whom we could expect to have a civil conversation and normal state relations in a post-Soviet Afghanistan. But Washington claimed its hands were tied and it couldn't intervene in Pakistan's "internal affairs." Remember, during the 80s the US was very concerned to keep Pakistan within the anti-Soviet orbit, even if it meant looking the other way re: nuclear development or how much arms & money went to which rebel forces. I'm not saying that was right -- in fact, I urged responsible officials to stop allowing our aid to be channeled to the fundamentalists before they became too strong. But this sort of "Realpolitik" was very much SOP for Washington during the 1970s and 80s. As the Soviets neared defeat in Afghanistan in 1985-86, Saudi fanatics such as Bin Laden and other foreign Arab volunteers began pouring in to Afghanistan. By 1987-88, the Soviets were gone and the US (in another stupid move) swung its aid pendulum to the other extreme and basically abandoned the Afghan people to starve. In the years that followed, then, the emergent Taliban were aided and abetted both by Afghanistan's small fundamentalist wing (Hezbi Islami) as well as by the Pak SIS, now dominated by Jamiat Islami (Pakistani fundamentalist) forces. And in the end, the Taliban filled the vacumn left by 20 years of a near genocidal war against the Soviets. The rest is history. Sorry to be a broken record on this, but it just riles me to hear people spout half-truths about who the Taliban are and how they emerged -- as if Washington's myopia circa 1984-85 justfies what happened at the WTC.

September 22, 2001 THE INVESTIGATION Tape Reveals Wild Struggle on Flight 93 By JAMES RISEN and DAVID JOHNSTON ASHINGTON, Sept. 21 � A desperate and wild struggle took place aboard the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 before it crashed in southwestern Pennsylvania, according to the plane's cockpit voice recorder, law enforcement officials said today. The recording has been played for Attorney General John Ashcroft and the F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, the officials said. And while it did not provide a clear or complete picture, it seemed certain that there was a chaotic confrontation that apparently led to the crash of the jet. In another development, American intelligence officials said today they believed that the assassination of the leader of the anti- Taliban alliance in Afghanistan on Sept. 9 was probably carried out by associates of Osama bin Laden. The assassination appears to have been the first step in the terror plot that culminated in the attacks on the United States two days later, the officials said. The voice recorder picked up scuffling sounds as well as shouts in Arabic and English, the officials said, but listeners have not been able to discern what was happening or who among the passengers, crew members or hijackers was involved in the struggle. In the past week, officials have said that the passengers appeared to have stormed the cockpit after the four hijackers commandeered the flight. That account has been based primarily on cellphone conversations between passengers and people on the ground. Technical experts are continuing their efforts to enhance the sounds from the cockpit listening device, which uses microphones in the headsets of the pilots and mounted on the cockpit ceiling. Mr. Mueller visited the crash site on Thursday after he received a preliminary briefing on the recorder's contents. He said that the passengers heroically prevented the hijackers from striking their target, an undetermined site in Washington. "I think both of us here and � both the attorney general and I and the attorney general of Pennsylvania have indicated we believe those passengers on this jet were absolute heroes and their actions during this flight were heroic," he said. " continued at http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/22/national/22INQU.html?todaysheadlines

A Former Pakistani Prime Minister Weighs In By Benazir Bhutto Friday, Sept. 21, 2001 Little in life springs from whole cloth. That is especially true of Sept. 11, 2001, a date stained into the calendar of civilization. This was a calamity two decades in the making. At the end of 1979, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, hoping to strengthen their position in Central Asia and develop proximity to the resources and warm ports of the Gulf. Almost immediately an indigenous insurrection developed to challenge the Soviet occupation. The freedom fighters were called the "Mujahadeen" and were composed of seven different factions. In its early days, the Reagan administration made a decision that would shape the course of history. It backed the one faction most likely to successfully challenge the Soviets on the battlefield. Working with their counterparts in the Pakistani Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), the CIA armed, trained, and empowered the most extreme, anti-modernity, anti-Western zealots within the Mujahadeen. This propelled the extremists to a leadership position in the war of resistance and in the politics that followed. The war in Afghanistan caused one of the great refugee migrations in modern history. Nearly three million Afghans crossed into Pakistan to escape the fighting. Almost immediately scores of special Islamic schools, called Madrassas, sprang up. The boys that were sent there by their parents to be nourished and educated were taught extremism, intolerance, subjugation of women, and violence. All of these elements are antithetical to the Holy Book and to the teachings of the Prophet. When the children were not being brainwashed, they were trained in hand-to-hand combat, the use of weapons, and terrorist strategy. These schools became the recruitment centers for the fanatic administration that ultimately took control of Afghanistan after the Soviet exit. The new political movement was named after the schools themselves. The word "Talib" means student! I became prime minister of Pakistan in 1988 during the waning days of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. The last Soviet troops were airlifted out of Afghanistan on Feb. 15, 1989. The international community quickly turned its attention to events in Europe and the fall of the Berlin Wall. I was left concerned at the lack of a post-Soviet plan for the reconstruction and governing of Afghanistan. I was also concerned at the go-at-it-alone attitude of the extremist factions that wanted the government, and ultimately they prevailed. I suspected that having defeated one superpower, the zealots felt invincible and divinely empowered to take aim at another. As a moderate, progressive, democratically elected woman prime minister of Pakistan, I was a threat to the fundamentalist zealots on multiple levels and targeted by them in both my governments. They had the support of sympathetic elements within Pakistan's security apparatus and the financial support of people like Osama Bin Laden. I had closed their training university in Peshawar and was targeted for that. I had tracked down and extradited the Ramzi Yousef, the perpetrator of the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, and was targeted for that. My government was destabilized. Money was pilfered and laundered from state banks to fund the campaigns of opposition parties. We learned from Ramzi Yousef before he was extradited to the United States that I was the object of two separate assassination attempts in 1993. Osama Bin Laden personally spent over $10 million in late 1989 in support of a motion of no confidence to topple my government. And ultimately, with the active support of elements of the Pakistani ilitary, my two democratically elected governments were sacked and elections rigged to ensure that my party would not return to power. Beware the power of zealots who are well-funded, well-armed, and supported by elements of your own government! That brings us to the present. A complex and well-funded terrorist network executed the most inhuman terrorist attack in history. The target was America, but it was also the values of freedom everywhere. It seemed Osama and his cohorts read Professor Samuel Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations and wished to provoke its thesis into reality. Their goal is for the Muslim world to see U.S. retaliation as an act of aggression against Islam. Sept. 11 was the bait. Sadly, this is not over. The United States responded quickly in declaring a fight against international terrorism and cautioned it will be a long process. Asked to assist the U.S. effort against terrorism, Islamabad responded positively. It did this despite elements within the military intelligence complex that have sympathy for the Taliban. Pakistan is saddled with $38 billion in international debt, with $4 billion owed to America. With Egypt and Jordan, the United States has repaid political support with debt retirement in the past. Islamabad expects the same treatment. It also expects the repeal of the discriminatory Pressler amendment denying military and economic aid to Pakistan because of its nuclear program. There is one price that Islamabad could demand that is too great and too dangerous to grant. The United States and the Commonwealth support the holding of free, fair, party-based elections to restore democracy to my nation in 2002. Islamabad may be tempted to ask the United States to abandon its support for Pakistani democracy in exchange for support in the war against international terrorism. The previous military dictator General Zia did this successfully in the '80s. But pressure for a return to democracy should continue. In fact, in light of the horrible lessons of Afghanistan in the 1980s, the United States should be exquisitely sensitive to the fact that democracies don't start wars; democracies don't engage in international terrorism. Allowing dictatorship to strengthen its stranglehold over the democratic institutions of Pakistan can, in the long run, create an even greater Frankenstein than the U.S. miscalculation with the Mujahadeen in the 1980s. Osama commandeers jets. Pakistan has nuclear weapon . The United States must demand a democratic Pakistan to stave off a true catastrophe in the future. Benazir Bhutto is the former prime minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. http://slate.msn.com/code/ThisJustIn/ThisJustIn.asp?Show=9/21/2001&idMessage=8335

For some idea of what the rest of the world is up against, I recommend this little essay of a book report with thanks to JSK for suggesting I read it: PROPHETS, CULTS AND MADNESS http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/bookreviews/r/stevens-price-2.html

From: William Meyers To: tincanman99@aol.com, paul@spring.net, melvyn@freewwweb.com, mmc@well.com, moon93@aol.com, pgribbin@megs.inet.net, malysaght@aol.com, dfrohman@aol.com Subject: a subway ride Postapocalyptic Meditations 23 September 2001 Thursday morning of last week I was taking the subway to work as usual, about nine in the morning, down from Morningside Heights to our office on 62nd Street, across from Lincoln Center. The train was packed full of people, as it always is in the morning rush hour, and I found a nook in which to tuck myself, next to the motorman's small compartment, at thefront of the train. There was enough space around me there to hold up my copy of the day's newspaper and read the first paragraphs of the stories on the front page, but only by keeping the paper folded in half. BUSH ORDERS HEAVY BOMBERS NEAR AFGHANS; DEMANDS BIN LADEN NOW, NOT NEGOTIATIONS That was the headline on the Late Edition of Thursday's Times. At the 96th Street station, where the local train shares the platform with the express and much movement of people from one train to the other goes on, a moment of panic suddenly struck. Shouts of alarm, screams of terror grabbed everyone's attention in the car where I was still standing. Outside the window people were running past the front of the train and toward the 94th Street exit. Inside the car people were yelling, "What's happening? What's going on?" Outside on the platform, they were too busy trying to get away to hear anything but their own terrified voices. It occurred to me that at that moment, or any succeeding one, a blinding white flash and explosion could instantly obliterate me and everyone around me. I waited for that to happen, as one moment succeeded the next. The crush of beings outside the train kept struggling for the exit. Then the door of the motorman's compartment opened, and the motorman -- tall and commanding, studded with communications gear -- emerged to assess the scene. I was thinking, "Just keep moving, man!" But I couldn't utter a word. He spoke something into his intercom about how there was "an altercation" on the platform that needed to be investigated. Then he got back into his compartment and shut the door. I prayed that that would be the end of it and the doors of the train would close. The doors closed, and the train moved out. The south end of the platform slipped by, and the lights of the station fell behind us, overtaken by the darkness of the tunnel. People looked at each other in fear and relief. At some point before we reached the next station, 86th Street -- a local stop -- I realized how much adrenalin had been pumping through my body. Slumping against the door of the motorman's compartment, I closed my eyes and waited for the enormous rush of energy to pass. By the time we reached 66th Street, where I exited the subway, I was thinking that the story of whatever had happened back there would be emerging in the media soon and that I should be on the lookout and looking closely for it. The person in the token booth at 66th Street had no idea what had happened back up the line. It was still too early, I thought. What could have happened? What did "altercation" mean? Had a fistfight broken out? Had it been "to the death"? Did one or both of the fighters look Arabic? Had one of them pulled a gun, or a bomb, or a flask of anthrax? Nothing was reported later in the media. At least nothing came within range of my own sensors. Apparently it had been just another routine incident -- one of all too many that have been occurring in our lives here for the last couple of weeks. I think it would be safe to say that the stressload in Manhattan has been reaching a maximum tolerance level. But it's the new reality. -- Wm

Today, in a short while, on All Things Considered. 09.25.01 The Bin Laden Group is a diversified corporation with an estimated $5 billion in annual revenue. It's owned and run by the Saudi family of accused terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden. The allegations against the "black sheep" of the Bin Laden family have created serious trouble for the family business as partners and associates are backing away. Hear about the Bin Laden Group, Tuesday on All Things Considered.

I received the following from my advisor, who used to work for Amnesty International in the UK. He's got friends working at the BBC, and this memo came out recently: -----Original Message----- From: Internal Communications Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 2:19 PM Subject: CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE This email is being sent to all staff ------------------------------------------- There's an important point in the power of press, specifically the Power of CNN. All around the world we are subjected to 3 or 4 huge news distributors, and one of them - as you well know - is CNN. Very well, I guess all of you have been seeing (just as I've been) images from this company. In Particular, one set of images caught my attention: the Palestinians celebrating the bombing, out on the streets, eating celebration sweets and making funny faces for the camera. Well, THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991!!! Those are images of Palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait! It's simply unacceptable that a super-power of communications as CNN uses images which do not correspond to the reality in talking about so serious of an issue. At the BBC here, we have these footages on videotapes recorded in 1991, with the very same images. But now, think for a moment about the impact of such images. Your people are hurt, emotionally fragile, and this kind of broadcast has very high possiblity of causing waves of anger and rage against the Palestinians. It's simply irresponsible to show images such as those. Russell Grossman | Head of Internal Communication | BBC Third Floor | London Broadcasting House | LONDON W1A 1AA

Patriotism, athletics go hand in hand 09/24/2001 Dave Kindred The Sporting News A brilliant day, a Friday in the fall, the sun warm on our backs, we walked to the south portico of the United States Capitol. From that high place we saw in the middle distance the Washington Monument, and we saw, at the far end, the Lincoln Memorial. When we saw all that before us on a beautiful day in a fall of sadness, my friend Verenda said, �Wow.� Because we live in Washington, we have seen these places a thousand times. But Verenda had it right. Wow. To see these places now, to see them after September 11, is to see them anew. So we walked from the Capitol, and we walked for hours. We saw the bronze of a Civil War general on horseback, soldiers hanging onto an artillery caisson clattering to his side. We saw our faces in mirrored black granite that moans of Vietnam dead. We stood in a marble temple and read on a wall a president's words: �The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here . . .� We stopped in a museum to see the Star-Spangled Banner. By the dawn's early light of September 14, 1814, the massive flag yet waved over Baltimore's Fort McHenry. Americans had outlasted a British siege that (a survivor said) �threw at least 1,800 shells among us. We were like pigeons tied by the legs to be shot at.� The lawyer Francis Scott Key saw that flag and in a poem called his nation �the land of the free and the home of the brave.� We saw three helicopters descend to the White House, always three to confuse an enemy, the three flying under the thunderous cover of fighter jets. We saw flowers left on the Mall by some people from Mongolia who have embraced America. We saw a president's words cut into purple stone: �The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.� The night before our walk, Lisa Beamer came to the Capitol. Her husband had risen against fear. When hijackers thought to fly to Washington -- to destroy the White House? the Capitol? -- Todd Beamer did the kind of brave, selfless thing that is the beating heart of a nation made and sustained by brave, selfless people. Passengers knew planes had crashed into buildings. Beamer and three other men decided to act. Ten years ago, he had been a basketball guard and baseball shortstop/centerfielder at Wheaton College in Illinois. �Good athlete with good speed, batted second for us, led off sometimes . . . a very solid leader . . . deeply religious . . . very unselfish,� said his old baseball coach, Ron Frank. �What he did is in total keeping with the man he was.� Beamer couldn't reach his wife by phone. He asked a GTE Airfone supervisor to recite with him the Lord's Prayer and to call his wife. The last words the supervisor heard from Todd Beamer were these: �Are you guys ready? Let's roll.� United Flight 93 soon crashed into the Pennsylvania countryside, apparently taken down in a struggle between passengers and hijackers. Nine days later, Lisa Beamer came to the Capitol to hear President Bush address the nation. �Seeing the Capitol lit up, it's just glorious,� she said. �Lawmakers all thanked me for what Todd did. Not only the lives saved, but imagine the emotional devastation to this nation if the Capitol no longer existed.� Let's roll. Saturday morning, going to a football game in Annapolis, we turned toward Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium, turning on Farragut Road, named for the sailor who 137 years ago said, �Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!� Such men, such a nation. If ever you need reminded of what America is and what it can be, turn down Farragut Road and spend a Saturday afternoon at a Navy football game. There you might talk to a retired captain, Dick Riley of Des Moines, Iowa, class of �42 with 26 years of active duty. He's 81 years old and on a Saturday in Annapolis he says, �We graduated 12 days after Pearl Harbor, 563 of us, and we lost 28 in the war. I pray that today's Midshipmen, special kids each and every one, have as thoroughly fulfilling experiences as I did serving our country.� Thirty thousand people came to a stadium where even the walls speak of courage: IWO JIMA, MIDWAY, NORMANDY, INCHON, QUANG TRI. The thousands saw a fighter jet fly-over. They heard Francis Scott Key's poem sung a cappella. Just before noon, linebackers Mike Chiesl and Dan Ryno led Navy onto the field in an all-out sprint. They carried high an American flag. No one had ever done that for a Navy game. But never before had there been a September 11, 2001. At dinner Friday night, Chiesl and Ryno had seen the flag in a corner of a hotel lobby. Permission, sir, to liberate the flag. Granted. �We wanted to do that for the Naval Academy,� Chiesl said. �And we were doing it for all of America.� He's a Texan, a big one, and he stood tall. His eyes were those of a happy young man with journeys to make. When he smiled, he was as handsome as a flag seen by the dawn's early light. Dave Kindred is a contributing writer for The Sporting News. Email him at kindred@sportingnews.com.

It's simply unacceptable that a super-power of communications as CNN uses images which do not correspond to the reality in talking about so serious of an issue. Welcome to real world. :-( Mr.Orwell we need you)

Memo to BBC. That footage was shown by all the TV stations, not just CNN. They sure sound high and mighty.

Don't make the mistake of watching CBC new on C_SPAN. I came as close to hurling something through my television as I ever have. If we are so loathesome give us back our aid and cease trading with us. As for the media....don't you wonder whose side they're on?! Whose best interest in mind? Other than their own?! Let me hasten to add that I know more nice Canadians than I do Canadian Broadcasting writers... It just infuriated me. The BBC has gone down the tubes I hear from local UK'ers. even they hunt for a more reliable source of news.

MSNBC did a real good story tonight on the Taliban and the Afghan Northern Alliance. They showed some good footage of Massoud (referenced earlier in this topic) who has been pleading with the West for years to give him just a little bit of aid. He said words to the effect that "give me a little help and I'll take care of Bin Laden for you, otherwise their will be grave consequences for the West. What better indication of Bin Laden's guilt than the assasination of Massoud just one day for the World Trade Center attack?

Message 550:" In Particular, one set of images caught my attention: the Palestinians celebrating the bombing, out on the streets, eating celebration sweets and making funny faces for the camera." "Well, THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991!!! Those are images of Palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait!" --------------------------------- CNN statement about false claim it used old video Brazilian university statement says no fact to original claim September 20, 2001 Posted: 4:02 PM EDT (2002 GMT) CNN asks that you copy and e-mail this statement to whomever asks about it.) There is absolutely no truth to the information that is now distributed on the Internet that CNN used 10-year-old video when showing the celebrating of some Palestinians in East Jerusalem after the terror attacks in the U.S. The video was shot that day by a Reuters camera crew. CNN is a client of Reuters and like other clients, received the video and broadcast it. Reuters officials have publicly made the facts clear as well. The allegation is false. The source of the allegation has withdrawn it and apologized. It was started by a Brazilian student who now says he immediately posted a correction once he knew the information was not true. This is the statement by his university -- UNICAMP -- Universidad Estatal de Campinas-Brasil. Again, please read this -- and copy it -- and send it to anyone you know who may have the false information. Thank you. OFFICIAL STATEMENT by Universidad de Campinas-Brasil 17/09/01 UNICAMP (Universidad Estatal de Campinas-Brasil) would like to announce that it has no knowledge of a videotape from 1991, whose images supposedly aired on CNN showing Palestinians celebrating the terrorist attacks in the U.S. The tape was supposedly from 1991, and there were rumors that the images were passed off as current. This information was later denied, as soon as it proved false, by M�rcio A. V. Carvalho, a student at UNICAMP. He approached the administration today, 17.09.2001, to clarify the following: -- the information he got, verbally, was that a professor from another institution (not from UNICAMP) had the tape; -- he sent the information to a discussion group e-mail list; -- many people from this list were interested in the subject and requested more details; -- he again contacted the person who first gave him the information and the person denied having the tape; -- the student immediately sent out a note clarifying what happened to the people from his e-mail list. The original message, however, was distributed all over the world, often with many distortions, including a falsified by-line article from the student. He affirms that a hacker attacked his domain. Several E-mails have been sent on his behalf and those dating from 15.09.2001 should be ignored. Among the distortions is the fact that UNICAMP would be analyzing the tape, which is absolutely false. The administration considers this alert definitive and will be careful to avoid new rumors. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/cnn.statement/ ------------------------------------- Nevertheless, there have been many(talking heads,"experts", writers)who have questioned exactly how that videotape came to be - not that it did not happen, rather, was it staged? who exactly were the people? where exactly was it?, etc.

People, I live in Atlanta ( the home of CNN )and I have many friends ( including the Senior Copy Editor for CNN Headline News ) who work at CNN Center downtown, so I gotta speak up on their behalf. CNN would NOT stoop to such a shabby, lazy and downright dishonest tactic, of showing 10 year old footage, while claiming it was current. CNN got taken to the cleaners a couple of years ago, about a story they ran (about biological warfare ) that later turned out to be false. Many, many heads rolled as a result and the public perception of CNN being the first place we all turn to for "accurate" breaking news, took a major, major hit. As a result, they double check, triple check and quadrupile check the veracity of ALL stories/film footage BEFORE it is broadcast. Also, it is worth noting.....ALL the major US networks ( ABC, Fox, CBS, NBC )broadcast this footage of the Palestinains dancing in the streets, it wasn't just CNN.

(Marcia) Without reading through a lot of posts to see if anyone answeed Laura, rhetorical question, we did pay reparations to the Japanese Americans we interred in WW2...$25,000 each. Aside from the fear factor that was going around after the Pearl Harbor attack, there were politicians and business people who took advantage of the situation and actually fanned the fire, which ultimately led to the internment. The J-Americans happened to reside on land that is now considered prime real estate in Southern California (think of areas like Santa Monica and Orange County). While the general public viewed the internment as safeguarding America, little did the public know that there were those behind the scenes who had a hidden agenda and who helped manipulate the hysteria and sought to profit from the situation by taking over the real estate (shades of the movie Chinatown and water rights). While some survivors received reparations, it was a mere pittance compared to the value of the land that they lost, where EACH parcel is worth several millions today. These J-Americans had to endure humiliation and financial ruin, and were the victims of ugly racisim and greed, yet they picked up the pie es of their shattered lives and continued to live as proud Americans.

Had no idea their property was confiscated. How on earth was that done legally...in this country?

How on earth was that done legally...in this country? I have the same question. Thanks to Suzee for posting the article debunking the story about the CNN photo. It smelled like urban legend to me, right from the start. Am quickly learning that while the Internet is a great place to share opinions, the facts often suffer.

There's emminent domain for when a government entity wants property for the public good (debatable) in which owners receive some compensation though not anywhere near market value. It has been used for the railroads, schools and other public-private development efforts. Saw a piece on a news magazine show recently on how some town is trying to use it to acquire a whole neighborhood for a Target store. People are up in arms.

How on earth was that done legally...in this country? How on earth was internment of citizens -- not foreign nationals -- U.S. CITIZENS, done legally in this country? Where was the evidence of a threat to national security?

Not to excuse anyone's behavior and the complete lack of reason and illegality, people tend to go a little hysterical when a country's military installation is attacked. There are numerous examples in our history...unfortunately. When there is a threat from a foreign country, people turn xenophobic just as is occurring now. It is interesting to me that we've learned from our past when I see the PR campaigns to educate the ignorant members of our society.

It is interesting to me that we've learned from our past when I see the PR campaigns to educate the ignorant members of our society. Better late than never. Will they go back to being their ignorant selves once the Fall TV season starts?

Depends on their diet of *reality* TV and idiotic night-time quiz shows.

From: Gerald Wheeler Subject: well worth considering i'd recommend this to all: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/09/26/ED69828.DTL

Jerome Karabel is a professor of sociology at the University of California at Berkeley and a senior fellow at the Rockridge Institute You want *me* to take some academic from *Berkeley* serious??? Those dudes consistently make government - bashing their #1 indoor sport.

Ah yes, Angela Davis taught there, no? Does she still? Kiddies go do your homework!

......How on earth was that done legally...in this country? .... The US government started to lay the groundwork for controlling subversive activities prior to Pearl Harbor (but in anticipation of joining the war) by passing a slew of new laws. These included the Smith Act, basically intended to suppress "disloyalty." Roosevelt signed an Executive Order in 1942, giving the army broad power to "exclude" questionable persons from certain areas. A month or so later, he signed a bill passed by congress making it criminal to disobey the order. I think the legal basis for the internment was the �Alien Enemies Act� passed 150 or so years before. It allowed alien internment during wartime. At first, some people tried to move to other locations, but there was really no place to go. Wherever they tried to go, the fear and outcry was so great that the government then disallowed it and started to round them up. Those being removed were given 5 days notice and told to dispose of property. The government made some kind of vague offer to store property for them, but at the same time refused to be liable for it. They sold what they could, but obviously many had to �abandon� their homes, boats, businesses, etc. Japanese-Americans lost millions in property and income and it was not just the Japanese. Germans and Italians were interned, as were some conscientious objectors. I hope Karen is right that we have learned from our past history. I am not yet sure. You can read Executive Order 9066 here: http://www.foitimes.com/internment/EO9066.html

The more I research the foundations of the al-Qaeda movement, the more depressing it gets. Take a look at the article from which this quote is taken. It's from the work fo a Harvard prof who was researching schools in Pakistan that teach jihad. Here's a quotation from her article: This is some research regarding the4 al-Qaeda movement by a Harvard Professor who researched schools in Parkistan that teach jihad as a discipline. "I want to talk to you as I would talk to my own daughter," he suddenly said. "You believe too much in science. Science turns a cheap thing like a piece of metal into something valuable, like an airplane. "Have you ever thought that you could become precious yourself? The way for a human being to become precious is to obey the principles of the one who created us. The way to become precious is through jihad. Nobody knows when he will die, so you must start the journey toward Islam," he told me kindly. http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/2001/jf01/jf01stern.html Here's another excerpt from that article: What happens to families whose children become martyrs? Most of the mothers I interviewed said they were happy to have donated their sons to jihad because their sons could help them in the next life--the "real life." Syed Qurban Hussain, the father of a martyr, said, "Whoever gives his life in the way of Allah lives forever and earns a place in heaven for 70 members of his family, to be selected by the martyr." Families of martyrs become celebrities after their children die. "Everyone treats me with more respect now that I have a martyred son," Hussain added. "And when there is a martyr in the village, it encourages more children to join the jihad. It raises the spirit of the entire village." http://pakistannation.net/ActionAlerts/Alert_pakwar.htm

From what I have read lately about the Bin Lauden siblings, they want nothing whatever to do with him - no matter his status!

The Al Queda organization has been ripped open and exposed by ABC News. Inside Al Qaeda Bin Laden Defector Ties Hijack Suspect to Training Camp Sept. 26 � A defector from Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization, al Qaeda, has told ABCNEWS that one of the men accused of hijacking the planes used in the Sept. 11 attacks trained with him at one of the terrorist mastermind's camps in Afghanistan. MORE ON THIS STORY FULL COVERAGE � America Attacked VIDEO � Former bin Laden Soldier Speaks Out � A Nation United: Full Video Coverage COMMUNITY � ABCNEWS' John Miller on Meeting Bin Laden RELATED STORIES � John Miller Interviews Bin Laden (May 1998) � FBI Releases Photos, Seeks Public Tips � Inside the Taliban � Pilot Arrested in London Instructed Suspected Hijackers � The Other Victims of Sept. 11: Pets � Can New Buildings be Built Any Stronger? The defector said he trained for six months at a camp in Afghanistan to become an intelligence agent for bin Laden. When shown photographs of the 19 hijackers, the defector said he recognized one of them, a man federal investigators have identified as Majed Moqed, a possible Saudi national. "Yeah � He was with my class ... I could recognize him from his face," the defector said. "He is from Saudi Arabia, and he is about 25 to 30 years old." The Department of Justice has identified Moqed as one of five men suspected of taking control of American Airlines Flight 77 and crashing the plane into the Pentagon. If the defector is right, he may have provided an important link between bin Laden and the hijackers. Federal investigators have said they have concrete information linking one or more of the hijackers to al Qaeda but they have not publicly linked any of the suspects directly to bin Laden or his camps. The defector, who is now living outside Afghanistan, said he was shocked by the attacks, but not surprised that the attackers were willing to give their lives for bin Laden and his cause. "Yes, I was shocked, but I know them better than that. They are not only 19 people. There are a thousand people who want to sacrifice themselves for bin Laden, not only 19. There are more than a thousand. All of them � in Europe, in Canada or in Saudi Arabia � all of them want to do this kind of actions. Terrorist actions." He said there were 18 other students in his class at the training camp. He said he received training in how to conduct surveillance and how to gather detailed information on potential targets. He said he heard people talk of hijacking airliners, but that he never heard anything about a plot to crash jets into buildings in New York and Washington. He said bin Laden spoke to his class several times, warning that the United States and Israel wanted to destroy Islam, and that they must be destroyed first. He said his 18 fellow students were sent home to cities in Europe, the Middle East and Canada where they were to wait � as sleeper agents � for instructions. He said he had no doubt his fellow students would obey any instructions that came from bin Laden. "If bin Laden asked [you] to put a bomb on your body and explode it, they won't say no. They will do that," he said. After two years in bin Laden's organization, the defector said he became disillusioned with so many plots that targeted innocent civilians. He has defected from al Qaeda and is now cooperating with the U.S. government. He doubted that the U.S. military, or even special forces, would be able to capture bin Laden in Afghanistan. "It is impossible to find bin Laden. Bin Laden has many, many places in Afghanistan. You cannot find him," he said, adding that bin Laden is still guarded by a cadre of heavily armed bodyguards, including three of his sons.

Thanks for all the background, Suzee. Actually, the part that I found hard to believe was the loss of property. Internment I could see how they would achieve. In the US, there are probably greater safeguards on property than human life from a legal standpoint. :-(

loss of property The internees were sometimes given as few as 2 days to handle their affairs before they were shipped off to the camps. They had to leave everything behind. Those that sold, received not pennies on the dollar, but fractions of pennies on the dollar, as vultures were standing in line ready to take advantage of the situation. While interned, no income was generated, so if people held onto their property, they ultimately could not make mortgage payments or pay property taxes. There were no grace periods, only quick foreclosures. The economic loss was estimated in the hundreds of millions of dollars. All of this was documented in a recent government publication. Some of the literature that has been written about this episode preface the actual internment with a history and description of the location of the real estate occupied. A few expressions come to mind, like follow the money, do the math, or as John McCain recently said about the war we've just entered, "get a map." Most people don't realize the art that automakers had in the demise of the US railway system. Likewise, most people don't understand the machinations that went on behind the scene during the internment process. And I believe reparations were only $20,000, not $25,000 as earlier reported.

...(Donna) And I believe reparations were only $20,000, not $25,000 as earlier reported...... I think it *was* $20,000 -- $20,000 and an apology! There were some reparations paid in about 1948 � a pittance that amounted to about 5 cents on the dollar. And non-Japanese real estate speculators did grow rich on land bought from Japanese-Americans for next to nothing and sold later at sky-high prices. Japanese-Americans lost property in many ways. Besides having it confiscated and losing equity (hard to make payments from �camp�), homes and businesses were vandalized and destroyed and also condemned whether they deserved it or not. What is that quotation about evil prevailing when good men do nothing? ...(karen) In the US, there are probably greater safeguards on property than human life from a legal standpoint. :-( The truth is that it could happen again right now. The Federal government has enormous power, and the President can do almost anything with the Executive Order(new or existing). The process totally by-passes Congress. He/she can declare martial law, take property, take over power companies, education facilities, airports, manpower, supplies and services as "needed." It can be used for good or bad. Andrew Jackson used it to remove Cherokee Indians from their land; Lincoln suspended certain legal rights, closed newspapers opposed to his policies; Roosevelt issued the previously mentioned 9066; FEMA was created by E.O.; Truman integrated the US armed forces; Eisenhower sent troops to aid integration in Little Rock. In the 1930's an E.O. required all gold to be turned in to the Federal treasury. I'm losing count of the wars we've fought without war being declared. Bush used an E.O. this week to freeze terrorists' assets. He signed one in June covering the Balkans, prohibiting US companies from doing business with certain individuals and "blocking the property and interest in property" of persons threatening stabilization efforts there. In the right atmosphere of fear and panic, etc., all these things can combine to allow rotten things to happen. Throw in a "real", declared war and the sky's the limit. It's sure a heck of an argument for paying *very* close attention to what your government is doing -- not to mention what we ourselves are doing as citizens. National Archives and Records Administration Federal Register - Executive Orders http://www.nara.gov/fedreg/eo.html

In the right atmosphere of fear and panic, etc., all these things can combine to allow rotten things to happen Well Suzee,that's why I'm glad that I live in a democracy with elections. We can always throw the bums out and the next guy can rescind those EO orders if the public deems it so. Sadly, minority groups seldom have that leaverage (Japanese). Hopefully, we're wiser now . I was happy to see that our representatives are respecting the law-abiding Muslim citizens in our country by going to mosques, including Muslim reps at services.Now it has to filter down to Joe Sixpack. But it is inconceivable that any president would repeat the error of the Japanese internments.

A poll released Friday by Ekos Research Associates for the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. and two newspapers found 63 percent of the 1,228 respondents said they felt ``a closer sense of shared values and interests with the Americans'' since the attacks. Fifty-nine percent supported giving up some ``national sovereignty'' to increase North America's security. In sharing the world's longest undefended border and world's largest trade partnership with the United States, Canadians realize the relationship that has bolstered their economy and guaranteed military defense now carries new demands and responsibilities. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011001/ts/attacks_follow_the_leader_1.html

David Kline's comments posted in news 54: People have been saying here that the Taliban brought peace out of chaos in Afghanistan and how do we know that the Northern Alliance or anyone else would be better? For the answers, see the rest in the news conference topic 54.

Militants storm J&K Assembly, 25 killed SRINAGAR: In a daring suicide attack, an explosive-laden car was blown up by militants on Monday near the entrance of the Jammu and Kashmir state legislature. At least 26 people were feared killed and 50 injured in the attack. Pakistan-based militant group, Jaish-e-Mohammed claimed responsibility for the attack. http://www.timesofindia.com/

ABC News reports. Taliban Taunt Says U.S. Doesn't Have Courage for Afghan War Oct. 1 � Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia said Osama bin Laden is under their control � but the United States "doesn't have the courage" to come get him � Taliban Says U.S. Doesn't Have Courage for Afghan War � FBI Foils Possible Sears Tower Attack � Will Sept. 11 Change our Apolitical Youth? "Americans don't have the courage to come here," Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar said in an interview with Taliban-run Kabul radio. He recalled the failures of Soviet and British forces to subdue Afghans, and repeatedly warned the United States to "think and think again before attacking Afghanistan." The fiery words came a day after a Taliban official, Abdul Salam Zaeef, said the regime was willing to negotiate over bin Laden's surrender, if U.S. officials present evidence of his involvement in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

I spoke with a Canadian man today about their media. He was not surprised at their comments. Apparently their press is even more "liberal" than ours was before this ghastly event unfolded.

Cruising in to Austin this morning I tuned in to NPR and heard that NATO just passed a resolution that put's us all in this together and another one time great Afghan fighter has joined our side. Haven't had a chance to check in on http://www.google.com/news yet and look around on CNN, Fox, NYTimes, ABC, etc. but I'll do that later. Sounds like airports are starting to get beefed up security, National Guard, etc. Canada needs to round up the terrorists lurking in the shadows up there, I hope they're mobilizing for this.

Blair: Attack Coming British Prime Minister Warns Taliban; Bush Looks At Economy, Security Issues Oct. 2 � As the U.S. military dispatched another aircraft carrier in the war against terrorism, British Prime Minister Tony Blair is reportedly set to announce that a military attack on Afghanistan's Taliban regime is "now imminent and will be devastating." Blair will say he has seen strong evidence linking terrorist Osama bin Laden to the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, and will tell a Labor Party conference in Brighton, England today that the Taliban, which has been harboring bin Laden, will be made to pay for its actions, according to the British Broadcasting Corporation. The leaders of NATO have also been convinced, after a meeting with U.S. Ambassador-at-Large Francis X. Taylor. "The facts are clear and compelling. The information presented points conclusively to an al Qaeda role in the 11th of September attacks," NATO Secretary-General Lord Robertson said today. "We know that the individuals who carried out those attacks were part of the worldwide terrorist network al Qaeda headed by Osama bin Laden and his key lieutenant and protected by the Taliban." He said that the information Taylor presented to NATO proved that the attack was directed from abroad, meaning it is covered by NATO's Article 5, which states that an armed attack on one or more NATO nation is to be considered an attack against all of them. "I want to reiterate yet again today that the United States of America can rely on the full support of its 18 NATO allies in the campaign against international terrorism," he said. source ABCnews.com

You and me too, Terry in regards to getting Canada up to speed on this. The only positive note from e politician north of the border that I have heard was from a former Prime Minister. Heaven help us! --------------- A positive Look at 9-11-01... By now everyone has been hearing the death toll rise and reports of the destruction from the terrorist attacks on the US. These were deplorable acts that we will never forget. But now is a time to look at the other side of the numbers coming out of New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. The sad but somewhat uplifting side that the mainstream media has not reported yet -- the SURVIVAL RATES and some positive news about the attacks. The Buildings The World Trade Center The twin towers of the World Trade Center were places of employment for some 50,000 people. With the missing list of just over 5,000 people, that means 90% of the people targeted survived the attack. A 90% on a test is an 'A.' The Pentagon Some 23,000 people were the target of a third plane aimed at the Pentagon. The latest count shows that 123 lost their lives. That is an amazing 99.5% survival rate. In addition, the plane seems to have come in too low, too early to affect a large portion of the building. On top of that, the section that was hit was the first of five sections to undergo renovations that would help protect the Pentagon from terrorist attacks. It had recently completed straightening and blastproofing, saving untold lives. This attack was sad, but a statistical failure. The Planes American Airlines Flight 77 The Boeing 757 that was flown into the outside of the Pentagon could have carried up to 289 people, yet only 64 were aboard. Luckily 78% of the seats were empty. American Airlines Flight 11 The Boeing 767 could have had up to 351 people aboard, but only carried 92. Thankfully 74 % of the seats were unfilled. United Airlines Flight 175 Another Boeing 767 that could have sat 351 people only had 65 people on board. Fortunately it was 81% empty. United Airlines Flight 93 The Boeing 757 was one of the most uplifting stories yet. The smallest flight to be hijacked with only 45 people aboard out of a possible 289 had 84% of its capacity unused. Yet these people stood up to the attackers and thwarted a fourth attempted destruction of a national landmark, saving untold numbers of lives in the process. In Summary Out of potentially 74,280 Americans directly targeted by these inept cowards, 93% survived or avoided the attacks. That's a higher survival rate than heart attacks, breast cancer, kidney transplants and liver transplants--all common, survivable illnesses. The Hijacked planes were mostly empty, the Pentagon was hit at it's strongest point, the overwhelming majority of people in the World Trade Center buildings escaped, and a handful of passengers gave the ultimate sacrifice to save even more lives.

Subject: "Monday Vs Tuesday" On Monday there were people fighting against praying in schools On Tuesday you would have been hard pressed to find a school where someone was not praying On Monday there were people who were trying to separate each other by race, sex, color and creed On Tuesday they were all holding hands On Monday we thought that we were secure On Tuesday we learned better On Monday we were talking about heroes as being athletes On Tuesday we relearned what hero meant On Monday people went to work at the world trade centers as usual On Tuesday they died On Monday people were fighting the 10 commandments on government property On Tuesday the same people all said 'God help us all' while thinking 'Thou shall not kill' On Monday people argued with their kids about picking up their room On Tuesday the same people could not get home fast enough to hug their kids. On Monday people picked up McDonalds for dinner On Tuesday they stayed home On Monday people were upset that their dry cleaning was not ready on time On Tuesday they were lining up to give blood for the dying On Monday politicians argued about budget surpluses On Tuesday grief stricken they sang 'God Bless America' On Monday we worried about the traffic and getting to work late On Tuesday we worried about a plane crashing into your house or place of business On Monday we were irritated that our rebate checks had not arrived On Tuesday we wanted to give it all back. On Monday some children had solid families On Tuesday they were orphans On Monday the president was going to Florida to read to children On Tuesday he returned to Washington to protect our children On Monday we emailed jokes On Tuesday we did not It is sadly ironic how it takes horrific events to place things into perspective, but it has. May God help us with the lessons learned this week, the things we have taken for granted, the things that have been forgotten or overlooked, the ruts that we have allowed ourselves to follow. It may well be better for us not to get back to normal. On Monday - pray and be thankful! On Tuesday - pray and be thankful! On Wednesday - pray and be thankful! On Thursday - pray and be thankful! On Friday - pray and be thankful! On Saturday - pray and be thankful! On Sunday - pray and be thankful!

Marcia, thanks for posting that 'positive view' of Sept 11 - gave me chills to read those numbers. *big hug* btw- *grin*

*Big Hugs!!! EsBee, I have missed you! I'll be in your area at the end of this month! My son is finally gonna tie the old proverial knot. Imagine riding a 100+ story building as it collapsed and emerging alive? Or worse still, going down all those stairs fro 2 1/2 hous to reach ground level just as the rest of the building collapses and you have just made it out! Talk about There, but for the Grace of God, go I...

Your going to be in Cal???? will email you - we HAVE to get together this time!!! Congrats to David btw!!

Thanks for the congrats. Your two emails are already on their way!

I'm not sure if it was published here. Even more doubts if I shoul put the below message here. Film about Osama bin Laden in production Guardian Unlimited Monday October 1, 2001 It was only a matter of time before it happened, but many will be surprised to hear that a fictional film about Osama bin Laden is already in production. The film rights to British writer and former SAS officer Andy McNab's book Crisis Four have been bought by Miramax and according to the books publishers Corgi, "The process is already several stages down the line." The book tells the story of a "steel-willed" British woman who is recruited by bin Laden to work her way into American security, blow up the White House and kill the president. The book's hero Nick Stone, a former SAS man who McNab says is "partly autobiographical" has the task of hunting down the woman. McNab is aware that the film will attract criticism when so many studios are avoiding any mention of terrorism or the World Trade Centre but insists he is not jumping on the bandwagon as the book was first published in 1999. "Many people have bought the book since September 11 because of the coincidences," he told the Daily Telegraph. "It shows that you don't have to have a beard and a turban to be working for bin Laden." Mystery surrounds the identity of the real Andy McNab as he writes under a pseudonym and there are no photographs of him although his books which lift the lid on the secret world of the SAS have been hugely successful worldwide. His 1994 novel Bravo Two Zero about his unit's experiences in Iraq during the Gulf war sold over a million copies in the UK alone I was afraid that someday there will be somebody who will try to produce a film about bin Laden to make money out of the tragedy. But I didn't imagine that it's already happening.

*More Short Skirts and Dancing, Advises Prominent Fatwa Victim *8-/ Fighting the Forces of Invisibility By Salman Rushdie Tuesday, October 2, 2001; Page A25 NEW YORK -- In January 2000 I wrote in a newspaper column that "the defining struggle of the new age would be between Terrorism and Security," and fretted that to live by the security experts' worst-case scenarios might be to surrender too many of our liberties to the invisible shadow-warriors of the secret world. Democracy requires visibility, I argued, and in the struggle between security and freedom we must always err on the side of freedom. On Tuesday, Sept. 11, however, the worst-case scenario came true. They broke our city. I'm among the newest of New Yorkers, but even people who have never set foot in Manhattan have felt its wounds deeply, because New York is the beating heart of the visible world, tough-talking, spirit- dazzling, Walt Whitman's "city of orgies, walks and joys," his "proud and passionate city -- mettlesome, mad, extravagant city!" To this bright capital of the visible, the forces of invisibility have dealt a dreadful blow. No need to say how dreadful; we all saw it, are all changed by it. Now we must ensure that the wound is not mortal, that the world of what is seen triumphs over what is cloaked, what is perceptible only through the effects of its awful deeds. In making free societies safe -- safer -- from terrorism, our civil liberties will inevitably be compromised. But in return for freedom's partial erosion, we have a right to expect that our cities, water, planes and children really will be better protected than they have been. The West's response to the Sept. 11 attacks will be judged in large measure by whether people begin to feel safe once again in their homes, their workplaces, their daily lives. This is the confidence we have lost, and must regain. Next: the question of the counterattack. Yes, we must send our shadow- warriors against theirs, and hope that ours prevail. But this secret war alone cannot bring victory. We will also need a public, political and diplomatic offensive whose aim must be the early resolution of some of the world's thorniest problems: above all the battle between Israel and the Palestinian people for space, dignity, recognition and survival. Better judgment will be required on all sides in future. No more Sudanese aspirin factories to be bombed, please. And now that wise American heads appear to have understood that it would be wrong to bomb the impoverished, oppressed Afghan people in retaliation for their tyrannous masters' misdeeds, they might apply that wisdom, retrospectively, to what was done to the impoverished, oppressed people of Iraq. It's time to stop making enemies and start making friends. To say this is in no way to join in the savaging of America by sections of the left that has been among the most unpleasant consequences of the terrorists' attacks on the United States. "The problem with Americans is . . . " -- "What America needs to understand . . . " There has been a lot of sanctimonious moral relativism around lately, usually prefaced by such phrases as these. A country which has just suffered the most devastating terrorist attack in history, a country in a state of deep mourning and horrible grief, is being told, heartlessly, that it is to blame for its own citizens' deaths. ("Did we deserve this, sir?" a bewildered worker at "ground zero" asked a visiting British journalist recently. I find the grave courtesy of that "sir" quite astonishing.) Let's be clear about why this bien-pensant anti-American onslaught is such appalling rubbish. Terrorism is the murder of the innocent; this time, it was mass murder. To excuse such an atrocity by blaming U.S. government policies is to deny the basic idea of all morality: that individuals are responsible for their actions. Furthermore, terrorism is not the pursuit of legitimate complaints by illegitimate means. The terrorist wraps himself in the world's grievances to cloak his true motives. Whatever the killers were trying to achieve, it seems improbable that building a better world was part of it. The fundamentalist seeks to bring down a great deal more than buildings. Such people are against, to offer just a brief list, freedom of speech, a multi-party political system, universal adult suffrage, accountable government, Jews, homosexuals, women's rights, pluralism, secularism, short skirts, dancing, beardlessness, evolution theory, sex. These are tyrants, not Muslims. (Islam is tough on suicides, who are doomed to repeat their deaths through all eternity. However, there needs to be a thorough examination, by Muslims everywhere, of why it is that the faith they love breeds so many violent mutant strains. If the West needs to understand its Unabombers and McVeighs, Islam needs to face up to its bin Ladens.) United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that we should now define ourselves not only by what we are for but by what we are against. I would reverse that proposition, because in the present instance what we are against is a no-brainer. Suicidist assassins ram wide-bodied aircraft into the World Trade Center and Pentagon and kill thousands of people: um, I'm against that. But what are we for? What will we risk our lives to defend? Can we unanimously concur that all the items in the above list -- yes, even the short skirts and dancing -- are worth dying for? The fundamentalist believes that we believe in nothing. In his world-view, he has his absolute certainties, while we are sunk in sybaritic indulgences. To prove him wrong, we must first know that he is wrong. We must agree on what matters: kissing in public places, bacon sandwiches, disagreement, cutting-edge fashion, literature, generosity, water, a more equitable distribution of the world's resources, movies, music, freedom of thought, beauty, love. These will be our weapons. Not by making war but by the unafraid way we choose to live shall we defeat them. How to defeat terrorism? Don't be terrorized. Don't let fear rule your life. Even if you are scared. Salman Rushdie is a British novelist and essayist. Distributed by NYT Special Features

I heard an account on the radio this morning about a Greyhound Bus terrorist action where the bus driver got his throat slit. CNN reporting at least ten people dead. Minimal info on the nutcase from one of the passengers: ----- Carly Rinearson, a passenger on the bus, said in a phone call to CNN affiliate WTVF that a man kept asking if he could have her seat near the front of the bus. She said he appeared agitated and kept asking what time it was. Rinearson said when she refused to give up her seat, "He just went up to the bus driver and like slit his throat. And the bus driver turned the wheel and the bus tipped over." She did not describe the man further or say what kind of weapon he had.

Another hijacking. MUMBAI TO DELHI PLANE HIJACKED EW DELHI: A Boeing 737 belonging to India's state-run Alliance Air, with 52 people on board, was hijacked just after take off from Mumbai early Thursday, Union Minister of State for Civil Aviation Shahnawaz Hussain said. The Minister said a hijack distress call had been received by the Air Traffic Control (ATC) in New Delhi where the plane had landed at around 1 a.m. The aircraft, on its way to Delhi, was hijacked after passing Ahmedabad, initial reports said. The plane, with 46 passengers and 6 crew on board, departed from Mumbai at 11:15 pm. The Alliance Air is a subsidiary of the Indian Airlines. The plane is now parked at an isolated bay runway 27 of the airport. Police and fire vehicles have rushed towards the site. (AFP/PTI) Times of India is the source.

from Times of India: NEW DELHI: After more than four hours of anxious moments, Union Civil Aviation Minister Shahnawaz Hussain said the supposed hijacking of the Alliance Air was a creation of confusion caused by false alarm received at the ATC Ahmedabad. http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=1331366505 The bus throat slitter was probably a lone nut copycat.

More weird people will think of copy cat crimes against humanity. It always seem so to be this way, unhappily. I understand an Arnold Swartzeneger movie was pulled before premier because of similarity to real events. I hope we are all spared such movies!

From a greatly-esteemed gentleman of my acquaintance: Re Bin Lauden: Give him a sex change operation and send her back to Afghanistan

A popular thing amongst fire departments to collect money was to have “Fill the Boot” campaigns. Firemen in uniform and wearing their helmuts, with the engine nearby would stand at busy interesections. They would hold one of their large turnout boots to collect donations. It caught on with contagious enthusiasm around here. Our 7 station dept designated one day to do this. Our crew felt a little on the awkward side to solicit money from the public. It wasn’t a natural thing for us to do. There were three of us. I made three signs from a cardboard box that I cut up. Before sunup, we got to a busy intersection at Fuerte and Avocado in El Cajon/ La Mesa, Calif. I took the center island for the turn lane. I wasn’t there for 30 seconds before I got my first dollar bill donation. From then on we got busier and busier as the rush hour approached it’s peak. To beat the stop lights, I literally had to run almost constantly. People had their arms outstretched waiting for me. The only way I can reach them wa to be on a constant juking and jiving trot, as I dodged thru the lanes of cars. Eventually the cars between each light stacked up to about 30 car lengths. I was getting very tired, but I couldn’t stop. People were eager to give their donations. It got so hectic that people were wadding up paper money and throwing it in our direction as they drove by. I was literally dodging traffic. There’s a popular video game called “Frogger”. The object is to get a frog across a multi-lane road to the other side without getting ran over. The frog moved back and forth to avoid the cars. This was exactly what I was doing. There were several moments when I couldn’t help relating myself to that frog. A smile would come to my face when I did. Some folks who weren’t able to give money at the stop light, would pull over and get out of their cars and meet us along the side of the road. Some people who stopped and couldn’t get our attention, simply left money on the seats of the engine. That morning we found over 50 on the seats. A lot of people wanted to thank me and give condolences for the NY fire fighters. Some folks had tears. They were so sympathetic for the NY fire fighters, that it was obvious that they wanted to express this somehow. Being firefighters ourselves, in their hearts we were the conduit to express this emotion to them. It was genuinely heart rendering. We have a large arab community within our district, and it was soothing to see these people making sincere donations along with the rest of the community. After that one day, our dept collected over $65,000 and the tally is still being counted. It will all go to the families of the fallen NY firefighers. For us who dodged the traffic to collect money for them, it was a very satisfying and emotional experience to go thru. I am greatful to have not retired before I could experience such an event. I only regret the loss that made it possible. George Zay La Mesa, Calif. San Miguel Fire Dept.

http://abcnews.com Oct. 5 � At least 1,000 U.S. Army soldiers are headed to the former Soviet republic of Uzbekistan today, as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld visited leaders there to shore up support for an attack on neighboring Afghanistan. Troops from the U.S. 10th Mountain Division are expected to arrive today in Uzbekistan, where American military officials would like to stage personnel, bombers and jets for any attack on suspected terrorist leader Osama bin Laden and Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia. Uzbek President Islam Karimov this morning gave permission for U.S. troops to use one airbase for search-and-rescue and humanitarian aid missions. He said he was not ready at this time to let offensive troops use the facility, however. there's more at http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_MAIN.html

http://cnn.com Allies press for support British Prime Minister Tony Blair and U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld are meeting with leaders overseas today, working to shore up support for the campaign against terrorism. Meanwhile, Pentagon officials tell CNN about 1,000 troops from the 10th Mountain Division are headed to Uzbekistan to provide security at an airfield, which will be used for humanitarian purposes. more at http://www.cnn.com/