Lena Headey, could play Val and Blanche. I like the choice. (Karen), His name tells me that he's a knight and we know he's on a Quest. La Chanson de Roland! VG, Karen! With Maud he was a gentleman to the end. I don't view it as Ash having "compromised" Christabel. She decided to go and knew precisely what she was doing. Maud and Leonora viewed Christabel as a feminist. (A lesbian too, but that is anither subject). (Mari) I got the impression that he may have fathered the child of the pregnant maid. Sorry, no! He would never have done it under Ellen s nose or in his own house. The pregnant maid was just to show how understanding Ellen would be with her. It sets up a contrast to the pregnant Christabel. (Mari) I don't think the class difference between him and Maud was that big a deal in the book; it's mentioned, but that's about it. (Karen), Roland does mention it a lot. Definitely strongly felt by Roland. Green= innocense, Maud is the direct descendent.

Green-envy?

and at one time green meant horny (green m-m's anyone??) ;)

...and Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came by Browning. Moon, I hope you are brushing up on your Dante. I think the green means different things in different places. Besides, as I've learned, with Byatt, there's no correct answer, just lots of them.

Had forgotten this fun tidbit. While doing research ages ago on Rossetti and Dickinson, I noticed that many articles came from a journal entitled Tulsa Studies in Women's Literature. Sounds like the real-life Tallahassee to me. If we go further, will we find our Leonora on the editorial staff? Wonder if anyone has asked them? http://www.utulsa.edu/tswl/default.asp

I noticed that many articles came from a journal entitled Tulsa Studies in Women's Literature. Sounds like the real-life Tallahassee to me. If we go further, will we find our Leonora on the editorial staff? I don't know about Leonora, but Germaine Greer taught in their Women's Studies dept for many years; and is still on the advosory board of the journal. University of Tulsa has a vibrant Women's Studies dept. Leonora sounds like a "one-of-a-kind";-) Love the Leonora/Blackadder encounter!!

I wondered about what the names meant after I read the study question on the link that Karen provided. I really had no clue. So Roland comes from Sir Roland on his quest (which is very clever), how about the others? Isn't Maud, Queen of the Fairies (in Irish folklore?)? I don't even have a guess as to Christabel and Ash. Does anyone else have insight? (Karen)I've bounced around in my opinion of Ash and haven't quite settled on it. However, he thought the child was dead for some time. Also, I don't view it as Ash having "compromised" Christabel. She decided to go and knew precisely what she was doing. Moreover, it was Christabel who made the rules about their relationship. No way, was she going to be the one to break up his home/marriage. She said it was a summer lark and no more, they would never see each other again. She even tells him up front (as Mari quoted early on), "And you must not speak nonsense. Of course I shall regret. So will you, will you not? But that, too, is of no importance at this time." I totally agree that Christabel was more than willing to embark on a relationship with Ash even knowing that she would regret it. When I used the word compromise I really meant it as it pertained to women in the Victorian era. Unmarried women were meant to be virgins, if not they were thought to be "ruined" and unmarriageble. Christabel might be considered an early feminist and had no desire to marry at the time, but even Gloria Steinem changed her mind. Christabel must have not been happy in her exiled lifestyle with Blanche or else would the relationship with Ash have happened. Ash had more culpablity since he was the man. Men at the time had all the power and thought to have superior knowledge over women.(Of course, we know this is not true) Also, Ash was married and had nothing to offer C. if the outcome was what it was. Ash went back to his cozy life with his adoring wife. Christabel had to deal with being unmarried and pregnant. Yes, Ash was tortured for several years thinking his child was dead, but hen he found out the truth and had a certain peace. Christabel lived out her life seeing her daughter but also knowing that May did not really like her. Even in the end when C. tried to make it right with Ash, she was denied peace. Yes, I think she was compromised( even with her conent) and that she paid a much heavier price for it.

sorry I closed the italics incorrectly.

We do not really know what would have happened if Christabel had told Ash she was expecting. I think that Ash would have left Ellen to be with Christabel. It was Christabel who decided to run away and break it up. Ash searched for her. he eventually traced her to France. He tried to see her in London and she would not. He ended up in the seance just to be able to see her. He was tortured and madly in love. He would have done anything, including divorcing Ellen, IMO. She did not want the scandal. Had the child not come along, I think they would have continued the affair. Why didn't Ash confront Christabel when he met Maia?

Sue: Maud is the name of a poem by Tennyson and Christabel is another by Coleridge. There's no name-poem for Ash or at least I haven't discovered it. Ash does relate to Norse mythology. I can upload some info about them if you'd like. Possibly, the best parts of Maud/Christabel are Byatt's use of certain lines or descriptions. It's amazing. Re: compromised We are talking about the same thing (I think). With regard to their relationship, I don't like to lay blame on either party because C chose to go, knowing full well what might be the result. She could've kept their relationship above board and on paper, but didn't. In fact, she kind of liked being pursued. In Blanche's journal, in the description of the prowler/peeping Tom incident (p. 53): "This Peeping Tom has put his eye to the nick or cranny in our walls and peers shamelessly in. She laughs and says he means no harm...But it amuses her to hear him lolloping and panting round our solid walls, she thinks he will always be Tame, as he is now." Christabel liked the flirtation. This was "doing her own thing" and really got mad when Blanche interferred; she had no right to do so. (Sue) she paid a much heavier price for it. Yes, but it was her decision again. We'll never know what might have happened if she had told lover boy about the baby. (Moon) hy didn't Ash confront Christabel when he met Maia? He's finally respecting her space. ;-D

From Monday's Telegraph: Grim oop north GWYNETH PALTROW'S usual charm went astray during last week's filming in Yorkshire of Possession, a film based on A S Byatt's novel. Locals, unable to take the train from Pickering to Goathland because of the filming, had hoped to get a few words with the Hollywood star instead. No such luck. "You couldn't even get near her to ask for an autograph," says one. "When she wasn't filming she was surrounded by minders and looked so miserable." Another onlooker is even more scathing: "She didn't look happy and hated people taking pictures of her even though she should be used to it. Perrhaps she should come down to earth and not take herself so seriously." ~~~~~~~~~ OK, a little tourism... Here's Pickering train station: Interesting part, the North Yorkshire Moors Railway is a steam RR. So I would think they would be shooting with the Victorian couple?? Kind of liked this brochure:

Karen....are you sure you don't work for the CIA? Incredible intelligence report on Pickering!! "Perhaps she should come down to earth and not take herself so seriously." "Sorry Gwynnie, Renee is outta the country...now it's your turn" "Locals, unable to take the train from Pickering to Goathland because of the filming," 1-800-DONOVANQUICK

sorry for italics

LOL, Evelyn! Thanks, Karen! "She didn't look happy I wonder if Neil has done a script change she does not like or agree with

(Moon) hy didn't Ash confront Christabel when he met Maia? (Karen), He's finally respecting her space. ;-D At that point he understood that Christabel had her sister adopt Maia and that Maia was very happy in her situation. He was happy that he had seen his daughter which he thought dead. Christabel was also taking care of Maia, she was with her. He must have seen the reason for many things at that moment, and that was enough for him.

From the York Evening Press: Steamy scenes Westminster may ignore us, but Hollywood cannot get enough of North Yorkshire. Following in the footsteps of Cate Blanchett and Michael Caine, Oscar-winning actress Gwyneth Paltrow was filming in our backyard today. For her new movie Possession, Ms Paltrow is shooting scenes on the North Yorkshire Moors railway. As the coal-driven locomotive involved is one of the only forms of transport still moving, this could lead to confusion. We must hope that she does not return to Los Angeles under the misapprehension that quaint Yorkshire folk are still living in the steam age.

We must hope that she does not return to Los Angeles under the misapprehension that quaint Yorkshire folk are still living in the steam age. That would not be so very bad.

Steamy scenes What a let-down.... He was happy that he had seen his daughter which he thought dead. How did he find out about Maia? Did the cousins in France tell him?

He knew nothing about Maia. He went there to see Christabel.

Hard to believe a man can be confronted with his child and then just walk away. At least he had his questions answered. Thanks for enlightening me on the names. I still like the idea of Maud bing the Queen of the Faires since C. wrote fairy poetry. To take a slight turn in the discussion. Why was it assumed that Christabel and Blanche had a lesbian relationship? Was it in the poetry? I was surprised when Ash thought she might have had that kind of relationship with Blanche. They make love and just because she is passionate and sort of knows what she is doing (which could be instinctual), Ash wonders about her. Personally, it made me want to smack him. Blanche had an obsession about C., but was it sexual. I could never really tell.

I agree with you Sue. To me it was not clear if they did have a lesbian relationship. Blanche admired C for many reasons, but being herself an artist, I thought it was natural for her to feel close to C. Plus C had helped her economically as well. I was surprised when Ash thought she might have had that kind of relationship with Blanche. Ash was surprised to see she was still a virgin. I do not think he thought she was sleeping with Blanche. I hated that about him. How dare he think that she would not be a virgin! Is that why he asked her to come along with him? Did he think she was an easy lay? That part was out of character. (Got that (?) Evelyn?) ;-)

Laura, for one that claims this is her favourite book and has read it many times, you sure are quiet.

I absolutely had the impression that Christabel and Blanche were lovers. Yes, C's accomplished lovemaking could have been instinctive, but I don't think Byatt would have noted it if that's all there was to it. Also, recall how secretive C. was initially about Ash's letters (hiding them as if from a jealous lover), and remember how upset the household became once Blanche discovered them. Plus, Blanche runs straight to Ash's wife to spill the beans--doesn't sound like the actions of a platonic friend to me. And she kills herself over it! Definitely lesbian lovers, sorry.;-) Then again, I'm the person who is still certain that Ash fathered the maid's baby.:-)

I think Byatt is purposely trying to make the relationship ambiguous to the reader.This book is a multi-layered mystery..not just story-wise, but character-wise too.I'm reading it the second time...and now that I'm not conscentrating on the story, I see nuances that she sticks in to throw the reader off guard.

You *know* I will have something to say on that subject, but in the meantime, I've put up some pictures from the filming at the Lincoln train station that were in Hello! Magazine last week: http://www.spring.net/karenr/possession/possession.html

Thanks for the pictures Karen. Gwenyth really makes a good Maud. I just wish she were wearing those signiture head scarfs with the pin. If they do the scene where she lets her hair down for the first time, it would be more dramatic if it came out of the scarf first.IMHO

Great job, Karen! AHHH! Roland does not even stand up when she arrives!!! How ungentlemanly. Can NOT possibly see the attraction there. What a horrible choice for Roland. :-( (Mari), Also, recall how secretive C. was initially about Ash's letters (hiding them as if from a jealous lover), and remember how upset the household became once Blanche discovered them. Plus, Blanche runs straight to Ash's wife to spill the beans--doesn't sound like the actions of a platonic friend to me. And she kills herself over it! Blanche and her happy artistic enviornment is threatened by Ash. She is the closest person to C and Ash crashes in. She relies 100% on C so of course she resents him and hates him for it. It is also a moral issue. She thinks it is wrong because he is married and that is why she goes to Ellen. Blanche s life has not been easy, she has no money, no property and she is very sensitive and aware of this fact. C knows that B is hates Ash and goes away with him anyway. Blanche kills herself because her life would be over anyway if C left her for Ash. But by killing herself she would hurt C as C had hurt her with her relationship with Ash. The lesbian idea is Leonora s. It is modern and lacks Victorian sensibilities. And, as it is proven in the end, Leonora and Maud did not know much about the real C at all. And that, IMO, also includes her being a lesbian.

Great page , Karen, thank you. Aaron Eckhart , sadly, still looks like Erin Brockovitch's biker boyfriend with short hair...not Roland. Can't imagine a librarian in the British Museum handing an original manuscript to someone who looks like that.

Sorry, I've been ill with migraines. I do have a lot to say, but was told no spoilers. So I really don't know what is considered spoiler or not. The relationship btw Christabel and Blanche reminds me of Clive Durham and Maurice Hall in EM Forster's Maurice. You just never know how far they took the relationship. However, if love wasn't a factor, why did Blanche commit suicide? I believe they were intimate. Christabel was for all intents and purposes bi-sexual and enjoyed being so. Ash was a great poet who intrigued her. Blanche was home and hearth.

but was told no spoilers That was UNTIL a certain date. Then I posted to everyone to go ahead and discuss. That's what the dragon warning was all about. "Beyond this point, there be dragons."

Oh, see I thought the dragon was in regards to something esle:) silly me, cool, so I can now spoil, eh? Well when head gets back to normal I will do so. (have appt w/ doctor as migraines are getting worse, not better..)

When I was a teenager, I had a very close relationship with my best friend and we were definitely not lesbians. I need proof that I can not dispute to believe it. As I have said: The lesbian idea is Leonora s. It is modern and lacks Victorian sensibilities. And, as it is proven in the end, Leonora and Maud did not know much about the real C at all. And that, IMO, also includes her being a lesbian.

What is more disturbing is the fact that Ash did not think Christabel was a virgin. How and why would he think that?

(Sue) Why was it assumed that Christabel and Blanche had a lesbian relationship? Was it in the poetry? The poem that gets everyone all hot and bothered is Christabel's at the beginning of Chapter 18; it's about gloves and immediately precedes Maud's rereading of Blanche's suicide note. I'm on the nonlesbian relationship side and think Moon did an excellent job of stating many of the reasons AND she did if far more succinctly than I would have. ;-D In fact, three years ago, I was the only one in our discussion group who argued that point and I wrote up pages and pages of rationale. With Byatt, I always try to be cognizant of who is narrating. Unless Byatt's omniscient third party narrator jumps in, you can't take anything for granted. Everything is subject to interpretation. As Maud says to Roland, when they first meet and he shows her Ash's letter: "Well," she said, "the dates fit. You could make up a whole story. On no real evidence."As Maud and Roland often say: "It fits in beautifully. But it isn't proof." Remember Bea's comment as well: "she was not taught to do scholarship by studying primarily what was missing. That key piece of evidence is missing IMO. There are three sources of information provided about the C-B relationship: (1) Blanche's journal, (2) the letters of Christabel and Ash and (3) our narrator, Byatt, when she provides us with events and people's thoughts that our her and heroine will never know. (Actually, there is a fourth--Christabel's poetry--but its interpretation depends on how you interpret her life.) For whom is a journal written? The writer and for posterity, to create an image, an image that may or may not bear any resemblance to reality. Such were the journals kept by Ellen Ash and Blanche Glover. They created scenes of domestic tranquility in their respective households. Blanche had nothing in her life--oh, she had art, but even she characterized it as "thin" or "unlit stained glass." The real artist was Christabel and she worshipped her. She is the same type of "helpmeet" as Ellen Ash. They ran the household, dealt with the mundane, and adored their masters in their silent ways. Blanche's journal was for herself. It is natural that her intimate thoughts would reflect her love for Christabel, but it doesn't mean to me that the love was returned in the same fashion. Letters, on the other hand, are meant only for the personal addressed. No one else. So, I would tend to believe them more. I looked for references in Blanche's journal and Christabel's letters to the existence of "conversation" or "intercourse." For the most part, life at Bethany Cottage is silent; the two of them absorbed in their solitary pursuits. Painting and poetry are both solitary pursuits. Blanche states that she lacks the courage to talk/speak, which I interpret as she loves Christabel, but her love is one-sided. What Christabel feels for her is something else. There is Blanche's description of the "Peeping Tom" event, that begins with "Where is the frankness of intercourse? Where the small, unspeakable things that we used to shared in quiet harmony?" Are they lovers? No. This is all in Blanche's mind. It's unspeakable or nonactionable. Blanche has always lacked the courage to act on this aspect of her love for Christabel. She breaks down, goes to her room to pray, cries and is comforted by Christabel. "we were quiet together, in our special way..." is not a description of lesbian love, but of the helpmeet being acknowledged or appreciated by the master. (Mari) Then again, I'm the person who is still certain that Ash fathered the maid's baby.:-) It's a possibility and certainly fits into my more recent views of "Randy" Ash. ;-D (Moon) What a horrible choice for Roland. :-( You said it, girl!

For whom is a journal written? The writer and for posterity, to create an image, an image that may or may not bear any resemblance to reality. Such were the journals kept by Ellen Ash Too bad for Cs last letter to Ash which she decided to bury in the small box.It was the final proof that they all needed to confirm C's and Ash's affair, and it was all thanks to Ellen, who had tried so hard to ignore it in her journal. Blanche is the same type of "helpmeet" as Ellen Ash. They ran the household, dealt with the mundane, and adored their masters in their silent ways. Exactly. One does get to be possessive of one's "home" I'm on the nonlesbian relationship side and think Moon did an excellent job of stating many of the reasons AND she did if far more succinctly than I would have. ;-D *Blushing* You are too kind, girlfriend. :-D

Then why did Blanche kill herself??? It just doesn't add up that they didn't have a physical relationship... perhaps they were soul mates in the sense that they loved each other but in a non-physical way??

Then why did Blanche kill herself??? It just doesn't add up that they didn't have a physical relationship... Have you been reading the previous posts? I hope your migraine is better.

Spirited defense, Moon and Karen! I say: Picky, picky, picky ;-)

Just because Byatt doesn't come out and say that they had a lesbian affair... I am SO not going to win this argument. Anyone read EM Forster's Maurice? Same sitch. Waiting for doctor to call... gotta love drs...

(Mari) Spirited defense, Moon and Karen! I say: Picky, picky, picky *hee hee* You ain't seen nothing yet! ;-D (Laura) Then why did Blanche kill herself??? It just doesn't add up that they didn't have a physical relationship... (Moon) Have you been reading the previous posts? I hope your migraine is better. Pffft! LOL! ;-) As my soul sister said, way up there on message 228, Blanche had nothing and feared losing Christabel. B and C were brave women, striking out on their own, making a life dedicated to good works (blah blah), without men. Brave for that time. However, C was the breadwinner; they mainly subsisted on C's money. She had nothing but pride and wouldn't live on charity. Goodness knows, she couldn't revert to being something like a governess, which in her view was a nonentity. Blanche committed suicide while Christabel was away in France. Not hardly likely that Christabel told her much about what was going on. That was her secret, her private space. Christabel only told her sister. Blanche may well have thought that Christabel was running away with Ash, another reason to end her life. BTW, haven't forgotten about Ash's next morning reaction...

(Moon) How dare he think that she would not be a virgin! Is that why he asked her to come along with him? Did he think she was an easy lay? Perhaps that's why LaBute is making Christabel a redhead? Cheap henna, anyone? ;-D

Ok, time to roll out *my* heavy artillery.;-) 1. Ash is not Maia's father. David Crosby is. 2. Blanche did not commit suicide. She was, however, found wandering half-dressed and incoherent in the desert outside Fresno. 3. The salutation on Christabel's note to Blanche is "Dear Cutie-Patootie." 4. Their every move is chronicled in Liz Smith's column. 5. Doesn't Christabel wear a dress with lavendar trim? Or maybe she smelled like lavendar. Or maybe that was Maud. Or was that orchids? Sheesh, all the clues are right there, folks.;-)

LOL! You have been reading too many People magazines.

Since we're on Chrissy and Blanche, can anyone enlighten me on the significance of their home, Bethany Cottage. The name does refer to the New Testament, of which I have little knowledge. Most likely, it is ironic, just as Cropper's place in New Mexico is totally ironic.

It would appear (or not) that Ellen Ash shares some of your same suspicions, Mari, about Randy. ;-D From her diary on June 10th: "I do not believe my dearest Randolph would ever consider applying his hand--or anything else to any young person in our employment. Or anything else? What could she have in mind? *shocked*

Maybe this is what blocked Bea too. ;-) I prefer to believe that he would not be involved with someone in the same house as Ellen. It would be truly stereotyping Ash and I do not think his poetic sensibilities would approve of being stereotyped at all. :-) Why would he care so much about his child with Christabel if he already had one? He was a man possessed, he needed to know.

Karen, re: your question on Bethany Cottage. In the New Testament, Bethany was the hometown of Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead, and Lazarus's sisters, Mary and Martha. Not sure how that might fit in, but Mary and Martha are sometimes cited by contemporary theologists as evidence of Jesus's belief in the essential equality of men and women, as they had access to Him and to places that women absolutely did not in those days. RE: Randy (I like that--have we finally discovered Byatt's intended meaning of his name?;-) I don't have the book with me here, but there are lines I can quote later which IMO point to Ash's fathering the maid's child.

Hey , Yesterday I went by 30 Russell Square where Crabb Robinson had the now famous breakfast. The building now houses the Univ. of London offices for the English Lit Dept.!Don't know the # of Randy's house...I know it's on Great Russell street. So he probably walked over to Crabb's . Wonder why Crabb didn't invite Ellen? He invited Blanche. OhGod....I'm getting like Cropper and Leonora.

Pssst, Evelyn . . .Sloane Gardens. From the Mirror: SPACED-OUT SLOANES CUT GWYNETH DEAD.. GWYNETH Paltrow has many fans. Just not in the exclusive London street where she's shooting her new movie. The fragile beauty is filming scenes for Possession in a house in Sloane Gardens, a small street just off snooty Sloane Square. But locals were fuming into their muesli when seven trucks suddenly showed up and parked in resident spaces, before suspending all the parking on the rest of the road. "I called up the local council to complain and all they said was: 'Well, it is Gwyneth Paltrow, after all,'" says local resident and socialite Cindy Jackson. "I can't believe it. They have taken over the entire street. I told the council I hope they deduct two days' council tax from my next bill because of the inconvenience. "I don't care who Gwyneth is." That's told her.

*hee hee* I've felt exactly like that numerous times. Thanks for the location update, Mari. Can stop looking in the northern papers for info. (Moon) Why would he care so much about his child with Christabel if he already had one? Ah, supposing that he was the father, Ash didn't know about the maid's situation. She ran off while he was in Yorkshire. (Mari) the essential equality of men and women, as they had access to Him and to places that women absolutely did not in those days. I think that fits in v.v. nicely. Both Christabel and Blanche were attempting to live independent lives showing their equality with men of that period. Perhaps the irony is that they failed. Christabel became the witch in the turret and Blanche went into the river. BTW, there's no question in my mind that it must relate to the Lazurus story, as his name is mentioned a number of times. Christabel and Ash debate it in the letters??? However, I was trying to make a case for the hospitality aspect of M&M. One was an exemplary homemaker/host and the other was all devotion. Couldn't make heads or tails of that one. Like what you've related, Mari. (Mari) but there are lines I can quote later which IMO point to Ash's fathering the maid's child. Do tell!! What else have I missed? I've always gone on Ellen Ash's journal (which I love) and the many ways you can read into it. My favs have to be the "cross-outs." ;-D (Evelyn) Wonder why Crabb didn't invite Ellen? She was straining her jam. ;-D

Evelyn, I hope you can match Karen here. Get to Sloane Sq. ;-) (Evelyn) Wonder why Crabb didn't invite Ellen? Victorian Ellen could not possibly think there would be ladies there. (Mari) but there are lines I can quote later which IMO point to Ash's fathering the maid's child. (Karen), Do tell!! What else have I missed? Do not keep us in suspense too long. :-)

The part about Randy that bothers me comes toward the end, when Byatt is relating what happened when Randy tells Ellen about the affair. First off, Ash told Christabel he wouldn't talk about Ellen because it was a betrayal and vice versa. Then, what, a couple of months after Yorkshire and Christabel's disappearance, he blurts it out??? IMO, he betrayed Christabel. Then it gets worse...Ellen says she's known. He said, "How long?" his proud crest fallen." his proud crest!!! Ash was proud he had an affair and wanted to show his wife that what??? he was desirable to other women??? Is he trying to goad her into jealousy??? Didn't like that description one bit. Not one bit. Definitely made me wonder about him. But then again, we'll never know because we're not supposed to know. As Byatt would put it, these are private things and no one should know.

so angry I forgot to close my tag. done now. ;-D

"How long?" his proud crest fallen." his proud crest!!! Ash was proud he had an affair and wanted to show his wife that what??? Maybe he was proud of himself by not telling Ellen of his affair. He was proud that he had not hurt her intentionally by admitting it to her and even expecting her to accept it. His crest had fallen when he realized that it was not so, and that his dear Ellen had known about it. His proud crest fallen, he was ashamed.

Right after Maud and Beatrice have read Ellen's journal, they discuss it, starting with Maud: "What happened to Bertha?" "We never find out. She doesn't tell. Or even if she went after her." "It must have been terrible for Bertha. She--Ellen--doesn't seem to see . . ." "Doesn't she?" "Oh, I don't know. She describes her clearly. Poor Bertha." "Dust and ashes," Beatrice surprisingly said. "Long ago. and the child, if it was born." Clearly, IMO, Maud and Beatrice strongly suspect that Ash is the father. Then a bit earlier, from Ellen's journal, we read: "She (Bertha) expressed no penitence, but also no defiance, asking me only over and over 'What can I do?' to which I have no sufficent answer. 'It all continues on whatever I will, ' she strangely said." I interpret this to mean that Bertha feels that her course of action (i.e., whether to reveal Ash as the father) will pretty much decide the fate of Ellen and Ash's marriage.

Right after Maud and Beatrice have read Ellen's journal, they discuss it, starting with Maud: And we know they have been wrong about other things too. "She (Bertha) expressed no penitence, but also no defiance, asking me only over and over 'What can I do?' to which I have no sufficent answer. 'It all continues on whatever I will, ' she strangely said." The Victorian Ellen was thinking that no matter how much I help her, she will do it again (have sex), since she has expressed no penitence. There is no proof that she suspects her husband. Byatt once again is showing the difference between Ellen (and her Victorian beliefs), and another woman. It alienates Ellen even further from Ash. Ironically it sets the reader up to be more sympathetic with Ash when he desperately wants to know about his child with Christabel.

I am very partial to Ash, can you tell? ;-)

(Moon) And we know they have been wrong about other things too. Ah, but there's no evidence that they're wrong about this thing.:-) (Moon) There is no proof that she suspects her husband. I didn't say she did. My point is that the passage gives us an insight into what *Bertha* is thinking, as Bertha is the only one who knows the truth. Her thoughts are revealed by Byatt through Ellen's words--not Ellen's thoughts. Will be interesting to see how the film handles this!

Thanks for the quotes, Mari. Will have to think about it some more. Yes, both Beatrice and Maud have come to that conclusion, and I especially trust Beatrice's instincts. She *knows* and *understands* Maud only became a reliable interpreter of events a few pages prior, during her discussion with Bea, the part about how to interpret omissions and sexual metaphors. (p. 241) "I agree, Dr Nest. In fact I do agree. The whole of our scholarship--the whole of our thought--we question everything except the centrality of sexuality..." "Dust and ashes," Beatrice surprisingly said. "Long ago. and the child, if it was born." If Bea thinks the child is relevant, then it is. I stand behind Bea. (Bertha) 'It all continues on whatever I will, ' she strangely said." (Mari) I interpret this to mean that Bertha feels that her course of action (i.e., whether to reveal Ash as the father) will pretty much decide the fate of Ellen and Ash's marriage. I don't follow how, am dense. ;-) (Moon) There is no proof that she suspects her husband. It's always in the interpretation. I think what she wrote about Randolph never applying his hand--or anything else--says it all. Anything else? Whatever could she mean? A foot? I think not. Ellen wrote those journals with an aim to baffle us, as Bea says. There is truth hidden amongst the boring details and glossed-over accounts of significant events. (Moon) I am very partial to Ash, can you tell? ;-) Really? ;-D (Moon) Will be interesting to see how the film handles this! Have probably tossed this out, as unnecessary in manner of hair color and brightly colored headscarf. ;-D

(Karen) The part about Randy that bothers me comes toward the end, when Byatt is relating what happened when Randy tells Ellen about the affair. First off, Ash told Christabel he wouldn't talk about Ellen because it was a betrayal and vice versa. Then, what, a couple of months after Yorkshire and Christabel's disappearance, he blurts it out??? IMO, he betrayed Christabel. This bothered me too. Ash told Ellen to relieve his own guilt. Whether Ellen knew or ot really does not matter. I wonder how they handled the knowledge on a day-to-day basis with the harsh reality of his infidelity intruding into their pretend lives. As to whether Ash was the father of Bertha's baby, only Bertha knew so we never will. If I were Ellen, living in a chaste marriage, I would have some doubts as to the paternity. Even if Ellen never consciously faced the possibility that the baby belonged to her husband, she must have had some unexpressed fears about it.

I still have a hard time believing that Ash would do such a thing in his own house with his most Victorian wife there. Remember the letters he sent Ellen when he was at the seaside with Christabel? How could he be guilt-ridden when having an affair far from home and simply be non-chalant about doing it with Bertha in the same house with Ellen? It does not make any sense at all.

(Moon) How could he be guilt-ridden when having an affair far from home and simply be non-chalant about doing it with Bertha in the same house with Ellen? Good point! However, what went on with Bertha was physical, whereas his relationship with Christabel was far more. He loved her or was possessed by her. Spiritual vs. physical Ash would feel guilt over loving another woman since he was pledged to love Ellen. Bertha was more convenient than going to a pro. (Moon) Remember the letters he sent Ellen when he was at the seaside with Christabel? I felt the same way about them as Maud did. Supreme indignation that he was writing as if nothing was going on, while he was with another woman. Then that brooch he sent her with the poem with this line: So may our love, safe in your heart from harm Your heart? Not--our hearts! But Ellen knew things were bad. Just before the poem is one of her crossouts. They add soooo much. They tell you what she really felt. Despite all [crossed out] We have been so happy in our life together, even our separations contribute to the trust and deep affection that is between us. "Despite all" Despite all the what??? And this is before Blanche shows up and Ellen's migraines start.

"Despite all" Despite all the what??? Despite all the failed attempts at... sleeping together. :-( So may our love, safe in your heart from harm He might have been using the third person plural with our love. Which is how I read it. what went on with Bertha was physical, whereas his relationship with Christabel was far more. He loved her or was possessed by her. Spiritual vs. physical Ash would feel guilt over loving another woman since he was pledged to love Ellen. Bertha was more convenient than going to a pro. I too think he loved Christabel. She was his anima gemella. But he was possessed by Ellen, because she was his wife. I still say that he would not have gone with Bertha in the same house as Ellen. Bertha, IMO, had a boyfriend she became pregnant with. Her pleading for help from Ellen was typical behaviour of servant/master back then. Bordellos were quite common then too, and more convenient for Ash who would not want to hurt Ellen feelings. We have had ample proof that he did not want to hurt her feelings.

Fascinating discussion...pardon the interruption.. Thanks Mari for the location tip....Yesterday aft on the way to the Byatt Lecture I stopped off at Sloane Sq and checked out Sloane Gardens.Lovely spot ...all the houses made of a brick (Cotswold bricks?). Identical architecture, three storey, porches...all flats..very elegant. Sadly all the trailers were gone.I don't remember Maud going back to London BTW. The Byatt Lecture: Cerebral to say the least.Raining buckets outside and the Royal College of Music is not easy to find...still, I persevered.(Americans are tough!!) About 50 people in a med size theatre.The lecture centered on "What do artists and scientists have in common and what do they do for one another". Scintillating, uh? The audience was divided between artists and scientists (hands went up..)Hey, mine went up with the artists! Book lover 'n all that stuff.There was an art historian and scientist from Oxford, Byatt (who repped textual creativity) and an artist. At the end I asked Ms. Byatt to autograph her latest book for Karen[Happy Birthday,K].I commented something about being in a Possession discussion online. Then asked her about the film...her face dropped. Clearly she is not happy . The script was sent to her , she did make some corrections.I told her we had apprehensions about the director and asked if she knew about him. She said she has checked out some of his films...I told her to go see Nurse Betty or she would be devastated. I did not have a chance to ask about Bertha's baby or Christabel's trans-gender possiblity.I was the only one asking for an autograph , but others were behind with questions.Sorry. Oh...she did not think Roland being an American would make any difference...but she wants Cropper to be an American. Another one of her books is slated to be a film..(one about Tennyson???) with a "British director and British cast and not as big a budget". At that point, my face dropped:-))

Thanks, Evelyn, artiste! It seems she did not seem happy with the script. What does she look like?

(Moon)What does she look like? Nice smile...gray hair...matronly.It was raining...we all looked like hell. You'd never guess she was one of "Britains's most famous authors".

oops

Byatt will NOT answer the trans-gender questions at all. Its for the reader to make up his/her mind. She's said that in previous lectures. I'm jealous, my favorite author and you met her (what new book??) is it the fourth in the Frederica Potter series???? K-you lucky duck! Tennyson??? What book could that be??? (I thought Possession was based on Tennyson just the poetry aspect, not the whole story...)

The new book...just published is called:The Biographer's Tale. Glad I didn't ask the questions...but affirms what I've been saying about her...she likes to tease the reader...gives them enough to get ambiguous answers. Tennyson??? What book could that be??? I dunno. I've only read Possession....and didn't want her to think I was a complete clunk.So I just smiled and said "Really? Wonderful". Though I have a little chance of seeing a small budget film with an obscure British director and cast .

(Moon) Despite all the failed attempts at... sleeping together. :-( Oh, I doubt Randy every tried again with Ellen. Probably never laid a hand on her. I think the "despite all" refers to the fact that they weren't really married in a true sense. Their life together was a sham. Remember, Ellen considered Christabel his true wife after she found out many years later they had had a child together from that scrap of note Ash had left in his desk. (Moon) He might have been using the third person plural with our love. Nice try, but no cigar. ;-D The Ash-Bertha thing is a possibility in my mind and Byatt has given several hints but nothing definite. (Ellen could be a v. heavy sleeper. Besides, they probably had separate bedrooms) Thanks for the report on meeting Byatt, Evelyn. Horrible weather that night. What a trooper! (Laura) Tennyson??? What book could that be??? That's the second story in the Angels & Insects book. It is entitled "The Conjugal Angel." The film that was made (with KST) is actually from the first story called Morpho Eugenia. Hence, Angels and Insects (Morpho) (Laura) Byatt will NOT answer the trans-gender questions at all. Its for the reader to make up his/her mind. She's said that in previous lectures. And what previous lectures might those be? I agree that many things are purposely kept secret from the reader, but Byatt has answered questions on this before and has even written about it. In my piles of stuff related to this book, I had this but had forgotten it. Wish I could've referred to it when I was defending my position three years ago. This from an essay Byatt wrote on her inspirations for writing Possession:I made a decision: there should be two couples, man and woman, one alive and one dead. The novel would concern the complex relations between these two pairs....I was teaching that great novel, The Bostonians, with its world of "witches, wizards, mediums, and spirit-rappers and roaring radicals" to a generation of students involved in the politics of gender, who disliked Henry James's tragi-comic treatment of lesbian passion. It occurred to me that in the world of nineteenth-century spiritualism and feminism, possession had both its meanings at once. So there was a need for the nineteenth-century woman to be a lesbian, or b>thought to be a lesbian, and the twentieth-century woman scholar to be a feminist.To read the whole thing, go here: http://www.asbyatt.com/Posses.htm

From the Sep 30 Irish Times (by Michael Dwyer): IRISH actor Tom Hickey has joined the cast of the new Neil LaBute film, Possession, adapted by Laura Jones and LaBute himself from A.S. Byatt's Booker Prize-winning novel, Possession. The story deals with the relationship between two Victorian poets, played by Jeremy Northam and Jennifer Ehle, and the romance that ensues when two contemporary academics (Aaron Echhart and Gwyneth Paltrow) study them. The film, which is shooting on Yorkshire locations and at Shepperton Studios outside London, also features Toby Stephens, Anna Massey, Graham Crowden, Trevor Eve and Tom Hollander. Shame, doesn't say what part he plays :-(

Apart from TS, I have a hard time matching faces to these actors. I might recognize them if I see them but can not match the name. Thanks for the link, Karen. Byatt is not too ambiguous. ;-)

Tom Hickey was the one you said would play Blackadder when I posted those pics.

When she was touring with Babel Tower, Karen and Kate (from Australia) asked when Byatt was in NYC (during Babel Tower tour again). Cheryl K also asked in London about a year ago. She is very mum about it.

Kate (who met up with Jane Elizabeth, another of my discussion group people) went to the NYC booksigning. She asked Byatt: "Were Christabel and Blanche lovers?" Kate said Byatt was "quite happy to answer." And said the following: "Oh I think so" and went on to talk about the poetry. I maintain, however, that Byatt is playing with us because as an author she should "know so"; they are her characters. Also, why would she write that essay? I remember CherylK's report on meeting Byatt. Don't think she even asked her.

...and, correction, Byatt was touring for The Djinn in the Nightingale's Eye

Have finally finished Possession. Whew. I found the writing a bit too...flowery? colorful? for my taste; however, I realize there was a point to all that imagery. I suppose I got too caught up trying to figure out the literary references, a small fraction of which I used to know. Therefore, I felt the genious of the book went right over my head. Having said that, I found the story fascinating--really made me think, stop, go back and reassess what was going on. At one point Ash tells Christabel that she likes to tease with riddles, which is precisely what Byatt is doing. Evelyn summed it up nicely: I think Byatt is purposely trying to make the relationship ambiguous to the reader.This book is a multi-layered mystery..not just story-wise, but character-wise too.I'm reading it the second time...and now that I'm not conscentrating on the story, I see nuances that she sticks in to throw the reader off guard. Byatt starts her last chapter (when she knows the reader is hopelessly hooked) with an Ash poem: "In certain moods we eat our lives away In fast successive greed; we must have more Although that more depletes our little stock Of time and peace remaining. We are driven By endings as by hunger. We must know How it comes out, the shape o' the whole..." My impression of Blanche and Christabel's relationship: it strikes me as one-sided love, with Blanche being the pursuer. If they had been truly lovers, I would think Christabel would have taken more steps to keep the entire Ash relationship a secret. She had Ash redirect his letters not at the start but only after it became known that Blanche was stealing them. As it was, she realized Blanche's feelings were hurt but I never got the impression Christabel was cheating on Blanche with Ash. (BTW, loved your 'rationale', Mari--LOL!). However, I have to admit I thought twice when I got to Ash's morning-after ponderings. My impression of Ash and Bertha's 'relationship': must admit this, too, flew over my head. It hadn't even occurred to me as a possibility. At that point, Ellen's journal revealed to me how generally nonconfrontational and in denial she was (though I knew one had to read between the lines). I thought this characterization would eventually be applied to Ellen's discovery of Ash and Christabel's relationship, which turned out to be non-climactic. But the possibility of Ash having a sexual relationship with a servant, right under his wife's nose...very intriguing. We see he has the capacity for duplicity--he sends those loving letters to Ellen while he's sleeping with Christabel. We know he's not a virgin though he's never had sex with his wife (which could be explained in other ways, though). Hmmm. This could change my impression of Ash, of whom I thought as being very noble (by that I mean trying to do good by everyone). My thoughts about Ash finding his daughter: *sniff* This caught me off guard. I don't think he was looking for Christabel, though. I think he went expressly to see Maia, having found her using the same means he employed to determine that Christabel disappeared to Brittany. All in all, the scene really punches up the tragedy that was Ash and Christabel's relationship. As for the movie: still can't fathom AE as Roland (and I've seen Erin Brockovich). It's not a commentary on his acting ability but the way the character is drawn in the book--smaller, darker, etc. AE's physicality doesn't immediately lend itself to a meek and passive character, IMO. However, I must keep resisting the urge to think of the movie in terms of the book, which will likely resemble eachother in basic plot lines only. Lastly (for now ;-)), your timing is something, Ev! Thanks for going to the lecture, asking those questions of Byatt and for sharing everything so quickly.

(Karen) She asked Byatt: "Were Christabel and Blanche lovers?" Kate said Byatt was "quite happy to answer." And said the following: "Oh I think so" AHA! I am vindicated! (Why did you hold back on us, hmmm?;-) (Eileen) We see he has the capacity for duplicity--he sends those loving letters to Ellen while he's sleeping with Christabel. Exactly. I never saw Ash as particularly noble or honest.

...because she wrote the exact opposite in her essay! Besides, with my convoluted way of thinking, it was TOO obvious and therefore not true. Did you follow? ;-D (Mari) I never saw Ash as particularly noble or honest. Me neither. When you reread the correspondence, he starts by professing to only want her brain but then he makes the great leap to her person and her home. Don't forget, he's the Prowler, the Peeping Tom, and the Wolf at the door. (Eileen) he sends those loving letters fungus in petri dishes - loving??? ;-D

There is a picture of GP kissing Ben Affleck in today's Daily Mail. They are taking a stroll in Paris. No mention of Possession but it is possible they are now filming in France.

The Mirror has an article about GP and BA too. Made it sound as though it were a weekend getaway. But funniest thing was this line: "Gwyneth, who is filming in London with Joseph Fiennes..." Ya see, if the Mirror thinks Joe would be a better Roland! ;-D (Eileen) don't think he was looking for Christabel, though. I think he went expressly to see Maia What led you to believe that? Any line in particular?

(Karen) But funniest thing was this line: "Gwyneth, who is filming in London with Joseph Fiennes..." Ya see, if the Mirror thinks Joe would be a better Roland! ;-D Agreed! Too bad Joe didn't go to school with NLB. Besides, with my convoluted way of thinking, it was TOO obvious and therefore not true. Did you follow? ;-D I follow. But good arguments can be made for both points of view, which is just what Byatt wanted. Put the "were Blanche and Christabel lovers" question next to "how far did Edward go with Heloise in the moss loft?". ;-) (Karen) fungus in petri dishes - loving??? ;-D Kinda boring, I thought. But there was also that 'hold my love in your heart' or whatever. Can't say I blame Ash for falling for Christabel. They were soulmates, and he wasn't getting any (sorry, crude) at home. I found him sympathetic. Wonder how he'll be portrayed in the film. (Moi) don't think he was looking for Christabel, though. I think he went expressly to see Maia (Karen) What led you to believe that? Any line in particular? I think it was the date--1868, 9 years after their affair. Out of the blue he shows up for Christabel, after all this time? It seemed more natural to me that he came to see Maia. We're never told how he found out that Christabel went to Brittany. However, true to Byatt's ambiguious form, I can see your point of view, supported by the line "Tell your aunt," he said, "that you met a poet, who was looking for the Belle Dame Sans Merci, and who met you instead, and who sends her his compliments, and will not disturb her, and is on his way to fresh woods and pastures new." How the script interprets all the ambiguity (which IMO makes the book so fascinating) will be interesting to see.

Inasmuch as I told Ms. Byatt that we are discussing her book online, I wonder if we sent her a list of questions, if she would answer...

I wonder if we sent her a list of questions, if she would answer... Yeah, right, Gill will make sure she gets them in, say, 20 years if we're lucky. I've got breezeblocks (love that word!!) that'd make better and more responsive secretaries than she. ;-D

Evelyn, what was her reaction to hearing that it was being discussed online? BTW, thanks for your on-the-scene report. Good stuff. Was interesting to hear that she got a look-see at the screenplay. Most times, once the rights are sold, the author's next look at it is in the movie theater. Don't know why, but had been picturing her as younger than you described.

(Mari)Evelyn, what was her reaction to hearing that it was being discussed online? She smiled and seemed pleased and surprised.Really wants us to discuss that Tennyson one that Karen says is the other half of Angels and Insects.... uh, uh...sounds boring. I think the questions are worth a shot.

Hold onto your seats... Charlotte has scanned in about 10 pictures and sent them to me. Unfortunately, Yahoo mail is misbehaving this morning. Two have Jennifer in them, although you can't see her face in one. The second, with Jennifer and Jeremy standing near the top of the 199 steps and Whitby Abbey in the background, is worthy of any studio's publicity stills! Need to shrink the pics as are huge. Hopefully will have up later today.

*clap clap* Goody! Thanks in advance to Charlotte for sharing and Karen for posting. Have been to Whitby. Excellent setting.

Looking forward to seeing them. Thank you Charlotte and Karen!

So glad you are all still here! I'm slowly "listening" to the book, and am now at the point where he takes her little gloved hand in his on the train and asks her if she wants to be "his wife" for their time away. I can see Jennifer so clearly in this scene. Charlotte is described as having a strong face, and Jennifer certainly has that too. When I get time, I want to write about the sensations listening to the book bring to me. I particularly loved the part about the old couple at Seal Court. I could see the snow, and feel the cold in that ancient house, and see the wheelchair, and, just today, the description of the cave and the light...So wonderful.

I know you're all eagerly awaiting the pics, but Yahoo was not cooperating yesterday. Will try to finish up later today. This is the best one of Jennifer. There's another one (which I hadn't received before) that has Jeremy close up on the street, but Jennifer's back is to the camera. We do get however a good shot of Neil. ;-D More later

Lovely. Thanks Charlotte and Karen.

They do not seem happy, too much apart, so pensive. It will be intersting to see the sequence in the film. Lovely!

Thanks for these, Charlotte and Karen. I love her cloak! Looking forward to seeing the others. Murph, that scene on the train is so vivid, isn't it? Is it an abridged reading, or the entire book? Would love to hear more about it when you finish.

Mari: It is unabridged. I useRecorded Books. Have for years. They have the best readers and selection, IMO. They also give you plenty of time to keep it.

WOW, it has been awhile since I have been on these boards. I was so excited to see the pictures of Jennifer in Possession already. Well, I think its her under all those clothes. Thanks to everyone involved in getting them and posting them. I just saw the Winslow Boy and I think JN and JE are going to me soooooo good as Ash and Christabel. I had only seen him in Emma but after seeing TWB I think he is perfect for the role. Of course JE being right for the role goes without saying. Michelle

Thanks Karen and Charlotte for the photos. I love the cloak also Mari but the crinoline is enormous, no wonder they are not standing very close together.Also what a lovely setting, can't wait for this movie, although the performances will be great I am sure, I am also looking forward to seeing all the wonderful locations especially the ones in Yorkshire.

More from the Charlotte exclusive collection: Jeremy, Neil (in yellow) and probably JE's standin alongside fence toward top, as is both red-headed and wearing same cape...but is definitely not Jennifer: Ash in closeup: Jennifer with head down and Jeremy walk off. The white is a balcony wall in case you're wondering ;-)

And who is the guy behind Jennifer? Adrian perhaps? Only kidding, don't throw a (chic) cow. ;-)))) JN looks great! You are right about the stand in. Thanks for posting.