Thank you, Marcia dear! I have always found caves fascinating, ever since I went into my first one years and years ago at a local theme park. I live in a karst valley, which means that there are caves EVERYWHERE. It is very common for people who live on farms to have an entrance to a cave on their property, and some of them have been clever enough to open them to the public. We have ride-through caves (in a funny little topless Range Rover thing,) walk-through caves, and even some crawl-through caves. My favorites are a comb nation between walking and crawling--I like to get a little dirty, but not feel claustrophobic. Many of the caves are used for growing mushrooms and aging wine and cheese. I've been to one in which there are many Native American drawings on the walls--and that one's not 10 minutes from my house!

In Pennsylvania there are many limestone caves - lots of them are used for growing mushrooms and ripening cheeses. California uses them for wine aging. In Hawaii, we have lava tubes - vast empty contuits which formerly carried molten lava away from the vents. I shall hunt up some pictures of the lava tubes to post. Amy, are you familiar with blue holes in the Caribbean? By that I mean, know anyone who has explored them? I am claustrophobic - I could never do an underwater cave exploration!

Uncleared Lava tube with rubble at the bottom: Thurston Lava Tube entrance, Hawaii Volcanoes Nat'l Park Illuminated interior of Thurston Lava Tube, HVNP

Thurston Lava Tube in the Hawaii Volcanoes National Park was one of the main conduits of lava from the summit caldera of Kilauea Volcano. It is not all that comforting to know that it is also considered our fallout shelter in case of a nuclear attack. How do I know it will not unplug the vent and allow lava through to were we thought we were secure?! Lava tubes can be very small in diameter or as vast as this one is (see person in entry picture for realtive size.) Many exist on this island, and many w re used for sacred burial caves for the ruling class (the Alii), while others are just there waiting for someone to wriggle into them. Lava is jagged...it is not something to do without much prior preparation. Some are many miles in length.

Lava Tube in the formative stages looking into it from a skylight. The current eruption is building a spatter cone around such a skylight since the lower end of the previously-used conduit had been blocked by congealing lava. By comparison, a much older lava tube which different type of lava formed: 100,000 year-old lava tube in Germany which has been used as a quarry

Underwater cave exploration is something that I could never do--I would have a panic attack just knowing that if something went wrong, I couldn't just come up for air--I'd have to swim all the way back out. I've heard of several people drowning around here from trying to do that--we have some very deep holes in caves. Do lava tubes have anything living in them? We have blind cave fish, blind crayfish, and lots of bats. Your pictures are great, Marcia!

I am delighted to bits that you are here! Yes, we have a quite unique array of critters living in our lava tube systems. There are blind happy-face spiders (ones with red markings on their abdomens which resemble Happy Faces), No-eyed big-eyed hunting spiders (don't ask me how they hunt!), blind centipedes, some crayfish-like critters, and other insect and crawlies. I am looking for pictures of the happy-face spiders and other dwellers therein. Since trees and plants take root rather easily on the rai y lava roots crack the ceiling and it is generally quite moist in there (at least, the ones on the upper slopes of Kilauea.) This encourages all sorts of algae and odd things to grow. Most of the dry tubes are barren - nothing for the blind to consume! I believe there are even blind cave crickets here! I agree with you about the drowning bit. Caves are not my favorite things anyway...and going without ready air is terrifying to me. Panic attack just waiting to happen, I'm afraid. Sink holes are another thing I am not too fond of getting near. I like my caves horizontal! The best commercial cave I ever visited was Luray in Virginia.

Sinkholes are a big problem here--people have been known to lose their houses into sinkholes without ever having known that they were built on them. There used to be a neighborhood right in the middle of town that was flooded out because it was built on a sinkhole, so the city had to buy up all the property and eat their losses.

never been in a lava tube and i'd rather not see a sink hole in person! but have been in a cave. notice i said "a cave" and not 2 or 3. but that's ok. plenty of time to explore. the one i visited was near new braunfels, texas and i can't recall the name of it right now. have pictures too if my mom would ever mail my photo album to me!! i wanna say the carlsbad caverns, but i don't think that's right. lemme do some looking and i'll tell you fer sure!

Carlsbad Caverns are in New Mexico, unless they moved them recently...! I was in a cave in Arizona where desperados hid out...that is the only way you're gonna get me back into that one!!!

Wolfie, you said you were going to visit Hawaii one day and John offered to chauffeur you around and I will be your tour guide. You will walk through the Thurston Lava Tube with me =) At night it is spectacular!!!

What is the name of the biggest cave in the country, which I believe is in Kentucky? I remember learning about it in geology, but that was 3-4 years ago. I'm amazed at what I do remember--I really enjoyed that class, except when it came to reading those bloody topo maps!

see, i figured i had the wrong set of caverns. john said he'd chauffeur this wolfie around the state? wow, i missed that. well, i'll be out of country during the summer of next year but it won't be hawaii. it's on my list of things to do though! and there is a military billeting there right on the beach!

oh, can i take a picture inside the lava tube and it come out alright?

You can take all sorts of good shots like the ones I posted in the lava tube. Just bring fast film and a wide open shutter...or a good digital (what I want from Santa - if one exists for me anymore other than myself...!) I'm gonna have to look up the Kentucky caverns - I know then very well and they escape me at the moment...*sigh*

Amy, I share your distaste for topos but Terry loves them...wish he would post something in Cartography...!

I don't know how anyone can understand topo maps! And if they do at least understand them, I don't know how they actually use them for anything! They were just a big jumble of lines for me, and I didn't get very good grades on the map-reading portion of the class.

we have a cartography topic? (besides the one in collecting)....

k--the caverns i went to see in texas was the natural bridge caverns. went to the national caverns association to find that info. didn't copy the link but you can find it if you do a search using caves!!

Okay...thanks! I'll go check.

Mammoth Caves, Kentucky...for some stunning photographs and an idea of just how huge it really is http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/8916/pltravKY.htm

From Reuters: Trapped French Potholers Alive And Well GRAMAT, France (Reuters) - Seven French potholers were located on Sunday after spending 10 days trapped by a torrent in an underground cavern in southwest France and rescuers said they were preparing to raise them to the surface. Paramedics, sent down a narrow shaft drilled to the cavern, checked the potholers' health before they were pulled up one by one over the next few hours, local prefect Michel Sapin told reporters. He said they seemed in good health. ``When we bring them back up to the surface depends on their state of health, but from now on it's just a race against the clock,'' Sapin said as sirens blared across the village of Gramat, 112 miles north of Toulouse, to spread the news. In the biggest rescue mission of its type in France, around 250 rescue specialists and troops fought hard rock, floods, mud and fatigue to get through to the group, who were trapped last weekend after sweeping floods turned a routine expedition into a battle for survival. The four rescuers who descended some 130-330 feet into the pitch-dark drill hole said they were amazed when first one, then a second member of the missing group scrambled over to them. They confirmed the other five were alive, ending fears they might not have survived their ordeal. Microphones lowered repeatedly into the cavern in recent days had failed to pick up any signs of life. ``I was in the first group sent to find them and I was at the front when I saw a light in front of me,'' rescuer Cyril Arnaud said. SURPRISED BY CONTACT He said he had been making his way along the edge of an underground river some 100 yards from where the group was believed to be sheltering when he made contact. ``He was in fine form, just a bit dazed to see me, which isn't surprising. He explained he'd come over because they had heard first the sound of drilling and then our shouts,'' Arnaud said. He added that, as hoped, the group had set themselves up in a bivouac high above the water level and still had enough batteries to provide them with light. Prime Minister Lionel Jospin said he was overjoyed that the seven potholers, who have dominated headlines in France this week, had been found and hoped they would soon be reunited with their families. In a swift statement, Jospin also praised the rescuers and wished them luck with the evacuation operation. Bernard Tourte, a technical supervisor for the rescue operation, said that once doctors had given the green light for the evacuation, the group would probably make their way out via a fairly straightforward route. This would lead to a near-vertical shaft where they would be helped up by an inner tube lowered down from the surface. Despite the grueling conditions at the rescue site, exhausted rescue workers had stayed optimistic they would find the group alive, noting the temperature underground was a bearable 13 degrees Celsius and that the experienced team had ample kit and provisions. The potholers were located as weather conditions took a turn for the worse in the south of France, with freezing temperatures and heavy snow blocking roads and cutting power in some regions.

Uff! I'm glad they're safe.

This lady is claustrophobic. I cannot imagine a much worse nightmare than that!

Man breaks underground balloon flying 'record' Miroslaw Rekas believes he is the first person to fly a hot-air balloon underground. He lifted a 50-foot high balloon seven feet off the ground in a Polish salt mine and stayed aloft for about four minutes, the PAP news agency reports. He hopes to get into the Guinness Book of Records as he believes no-one else has performed a similar feat. The stunt took place at night, 400 feet underground, after tourists had left the Wieliczka mine in southern Poland.

that is truly wierd!

A Salt mine in Britain had the earliest versions of carving discovered in the UK (correct me if I am wrong, and of course you must since I want to be right as well as the rest of us do!) Anyway, the carving resembled the Willendorf Venus, a rather chubby fertility goddess. Salt mines in Canada still house the most rare and valuable documents from Britian, including the Magna Charta.

Haven't heard of that one .....

MAGNA CARTA. Now that I have typed it correctly... I heard that a copy (there were a few) is in the Canadian Salt mine on The Discovery channel or The Leaning Channel or one of those... History Channel, perhaps?! For those not knowing what it is and needing a modern translation, this is your place! http://www.bl.uk/diglib/magna-carta/magna-carta-text.html

This will do nicely, as well http://www.bl.uk/diglib/magna-carta/magna-carta-text.html

This is also from Liam - too good for just kids. I have heard of the Caves of kentucky and would love to see them one day. http://www.kdu.com/caveecol.html also see: http://www.culture.fr/culture/arcnat/lascaux/en/index.html

Marci, have you run across any descriptions of the caves of Afghanistan? How extensive are they and what part of the country are they in mostly?

http://www.pipeline.com/~caverbob/home.html . . . lists the worlds biggest caves. And Afghanistan isn't really on this list as this National Geographic piece reveals: Bill Marvel The Dallas Morning News October 16, 2001 The underground war in Afghanistan is about to begin. President Bush has announced the U.S. armed forces are "mounting a sustained campaign to drive the terrorists out of their hidden caves and to bring them to justice." According to Aviation Week magazine, the U.S. Air Force has revealed it will be using powered AGM-130 bombs, which can be fired horizontally into the mouths of caves. But despite talk of vast underground labyrinths, Afghanistan has few real caves, according to the cave explorers and the few outsiders who have visited the region. "Talk of caves is overdone," says a former CIA agent who spent three years on the ground in Afghanistan. "Most of these are dugouts, man-made things," said Milt Bearden, who was "running the agency's part of the war against the Soviet Union" in the mid-1980s. Bearden has written The Black Tulip, a novel loosely based on his experiences in that war. "During their ten-year war," he said, the mujahidin "just burrowed into the side of the mountains in these narrow switchback valleys to put their ordinance out of harm's way." Limestone Found in Only Two Places Limestone, the rock in which most caves and caverns form, is found only in two very small areas of the country, according to "The Underground Atlas," a survey published by British cavers in 1986: the high tablelands north and west of Kabul, and a lower, desert massif in the region northeast of Kandahar. Afghanistan is conspicuously absent from the list of the world's impressive caves, said Bob Gulden, a Washington, D.C., caver who maintains a list of longest and deepest caves on the Internet. Citing a French atlas of cave exploration, Gulden said expeditions to Afghanistan in the 1950s by a Swedish biologist and in the mid-1970s by French and Spanish teams turned up only three natural caves of any importance. The longest, the 1,120-foot (341-meter) Ab Bar Amada, is high in the mountains northwest of Kabul. But that area is not where Osama bin Laden frequents, Bearden said. "He hangs out generally in the eastern and south-central mountains." Nevertheless, it will be very difficult to smoke him out of his underground lair, as the president has promised. The dugouts where al Qaeda is holed up are about 10 to 30 feet (3 to 9 meters) deep, Bearden said. "You have to drop bombs down sheer walls and rock faces. Most were built to be safe from any air or missile attack. Finding Cavities Would be Difficult, Expert Says "All you're doing is bouncing rubble around. If you hit a guy, you're lucky." Even finding the underground cavities presents a difficult technical challenge, said Mats Lagmanson, a geophysicist and president of Texas-based Advanced Geosciences Inc. All three techniques that geologists use require that the searchers and their equipment be on the ground near the cavity. Lagmanson's company has used electrical resistivity to find a previously unknown cavern, Sting Cave, north of Austin, Texas. In this method, he said, an electrical current is injected into the ground and its resistance measured at several points. He likens it to a CT scan. Researchers also measure the gravity at ground level, looking for tiny variations. A lessening of gravity may indicate a large underground void. The third method, ground-penetrating radar, has been used to locate underground archaeological sites. "It's beautiful when it works," Lagmanson said. But it works best at shallow depths and certain kinds of soils block the signal. Those searching for bin Laden and his caves have their work cut out for them. "Most people think it should be an easy task," Lagmanson said. "But it's not that easy to find

I was not aware of the extent of the cave system beneath the Hindu Kush and the Himalayas. That they exist is not surprising - the Appalachians are full of them. Thanks for suggesting this topic. I'll so hunt up more information and perhaps an image or two.

I am getting bored doing nothing, so I think its time to share my spelunking experiences. I love adventure so there is nothing more exciting than exploring a lava tube or a cave. But before I share my fun experiences, I am going to share one that was not so fun. This one will teach others exploring other subterrainen features what you should NOT do when you go exploring.

For our high school senior trip, my classmates and I went on a backpacking trip to Supai, Arizona. It was a beautiful hike down the canyon. Supai is most known for its awesome waterfalls, like Havasui Falls, Mooney Falls, and Navajo Falls. While most of us were jumping off the falls and sun tanning in the hot Arizona sun, my friend and I decided to go off and explore a little on our own. There were dozens of caves along the canyon walls. Most of them didn't go in very far, but some of them went in for miles, so we were told. Anyway, I grabbed my headlight and an extra flashlight and we headed to the caves. We explored many of them and to our disappointment they were no more then a few hundred yards. Finally after we climbed a little bit higher up the canyon wall, we saw this small cave that we had to crawl to get into. My friend was very reluctant to go in, but with my adventurous and optimistic personality she soon followed. The cave widened, as we got deeper inside. My headlight shinned on thou ands of beautiful crystals that sparkled. Quartz or Barite was my guess. As we walked in deeper, the sunlight disappeared. We walked deeper and deeper until we started walking through a different passage that connected with it and then a few moments later another. I couldn't believe how long this cave was. My friend�s complaints and worries disappeared as my light shinned again on the beautiful crystals. She walked over and scraped a few off the rocks. Suddenly without warning my headlight started to dim. My friend began to panic, but I reassured her that I probably just accidentally hit the dim switch. I tried to turn it back up, but it didn't work. No, big deal I said to her. I asked her to give me the other flashlight. She reached into her pocket to find nothing. We realized that she must have dropped it back near the entrance somewhere while we were crawling on the cave floor. Now I knew we were in trouble. Ok, I told her, lets start heading back. But before we had even walked 5 feet my l ght flickered once and then went completely out. I heard my friend scream and yell my name. I felt my heart in my throat. I reached up to try to turn the light back on, but it just wouldn't work. I tried not to panic, but it was very hard to stay calm when I knew we were far away from the entrance and it was pitch black. I stumbled in the darkness grabbing anything I could grab. I called her name out, but when she answered back, she sounded far away. I didn�t know if either one of us was going the right way. I held my hands out in front of me to keep from going into things, but it did little use. I called my friends name again and heard nothing. All I could hear was my heartbeat in my throat beating a mile per minute and my feet scraping through the rocks on the cave floor! Thoughts began flashing through my head. What if she went the wrong way? What if I went the wrong way? What if one of us fell and got knocked unconscious or something? I tried to stop thinking so negatively, but it was he rd to focus. Suddenly I banged my forehead hard into a rock. I reached my hand up to feel something wet on my hands. It was blood. I stumbled around for it seemed like hours, just scraping, scratching, and cutting my body up as I walked and crawled through the darkness of the cave. Finally I saw a dim light as I walked around a corner and there was the sun shinning through the entrance of the cave. It was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. I crawled through the entrance to see my friend waiting outside on a rock with just as many scrapes, cuts, and bruises as me, and a very pissed look on her face. From then on, I now always go caving with extra flashlights, extra batteries, extra light bulbs, and extra band-aids. We were very lucky that we didn�t get seriously injured or had taken a wrong turn into another passage and could have gotten even more lost. Well, that�s my story. So next time you go caving, make sure you have all your equipment with you and some extras, because you never no wh t might happen.

Ice caves in my opinon are one of the most beautiful and unusual types of subterrainean features. I haven't been in many because they are hard to come by in the west. A small one, but not very impressive is in Lava Beds National Monument. You can only go in half way though because the rest is gated off for safety reasons. The best one I have seen so far I just visited last month in Mt. Adams Recreational Area. It was a true ice cave. What I mean by that is that its frozen all year round, has that beautiful blue cast to it like you see in pictures, and has both stalagmites and stalactites. Stalagmites are the ones that form on the cave floor that form by dripping water and stalactites are the ones that hang from the ceiling that drip water. The cave was quite unusual because of the ammount of stalagmites and stalctites it had. The entrance of the cave was in the center, but there were 3 differnt ways you could go. The one that goes in the deepest is directly in front of you when you enter the cave. Thi one extends into a smaller passageway that you have to crawl through in your stomach. I went thru half way, but Sean made me come out because he didn't want me to go in any further and he was relluctent to lay on his stomach and crawl. There is nothing more fascinating than hearing the water drip from the stalactites onto the cave floor. What was also neat is that there were pools of water that had formed from the drips. Some of them were 3 feet deep. Do not enter this cave without crampons and an ice axe. The entrance is steep and to walk to some area you may need to cross the pools so its best to keep your ice axe in front of you so you know which ones are frozen and which are not. Trust me, its not fun to fall into a semi-frozen ice pool, I have done it! And don't forget to wear warm clothes. Its quite cold in there. There are some others in the Cascades, especially at higher elevations. But don't be fooled, some of them are dangerous traps, like the one that killed the two climbers at the summit of Mt. Rainer last month. The icea caves on mountains or volcanoes themselves can collapse very easily so it is wise to check with the ranger before you decided to go in the ice caves that are at higher elevations.

Lava Tubes are also quite interesting. The longest one in the continental U.S is called Ape Cave located near Lava Canyon in Mt. St. Helens National Mounment. Ape Cave is 12,810 feet long. The cave is divided into two sections, the lower cave and the upper cave. The lower cave goes downhill about 4000 feet and ends in a sand fill. This one is the one that most people go thru. If you are more adventurous like me and don't mind climbing and crawling than the upper cave is for you. The upper cave goes about 7000 feet uphill over rock collapses. Ape Cave formed about 1,900 years ago when a lava flow came down from the south side of Mt. St. Helens. The Meatball is a very intersting feature in Ape Cave. This feature is in the lower cave and is a round ball of lava that got wedged above the cave floor while lava was still flowing through the cave. No one has actually gotten to the end of the cave yet. You can crawl if you fit and try to dig out some more.

There is lots of lava tubes of different sizes in Lava Beds National Monument. And there is several more in the Cascades too. Another well known one is called Lava River Cave located in the Oregon Cascades. This one is quite wider than most lava tubes. Most lava tubes around the Cascades are quite cold. Ape Cave has a cool temperture year round of 42. F. So when visiting lava tubes in these areas make sure you bring warm clothes, a lantern, flashlights, extra batteries, and a hard hat just in case. You definatly need a hard hat if you are going thru tight spaces in the lava tubes. Lava Beds National Monument sells hard hats cheaply for their lava tubes.

Then there are your limestone calcium carbonate caves. These are quite unique. Some are dry and some are wet. One of the largest limestone cave in the west is Grand Canyon Caverns which is a dry cave. Grand Canyon Caverns, located just past Kingman Arizona, has a very fascinating history. When the cave was first found the only remains were of a mummified bobcat that had probably fallen through the cave ceiling. Grand Canyon Caverns is very large. In fact, there is some speculation that it may connect to one of the cave systems in the Midwest, but to find that out it would take millions maybe billion of dallars to blast thru more of the cave. Grand Canyon Caverns was formed about the same time as the Grand Canyon. During the Cold War, Grand Canyon Caverns was going to be used as a bomb shelter. Even today you will see the boxes of food, first aid, and huge barrowls of water sitting on the cave floor in a small clutter. The people that moniter the cave still are trying to figure out what to do with he stuff. The crystals in the cave are very ususual looking, but never try to touch them. You can see very easily all over the cave what the oils on our skin do to the fragile ecosystem in the cave. The crystals become brown and icky because of it.

you've really enjoyed quite a few adventures julie!! you must have had an innate sense of direction getting out of that cave!

Hi Wolfie! Oh� You had a very strong experience inside that cave Joulie. Do not forget that you need also a communication way with your friends outside the cave. I suggest you also the Ariadne's ball of thread. Have you heard this ancient story? It is a secure indicator to the direction outside the cave. I wonder why you must suffer in order to learn. Have you realise that you were so near to death? John

Yeah, I did realize that we could have died in there. Fortunatly, before we began exploring the caves, we told our advisors where we were going to be so if we had not come back then they would have come looking for us. Your right about the ball of thread. I have heard of that story and it would have been a good idea to use something like that to be sure where the cave entrance was. I certainly have learned from that horrifying experince. I don't think I was as mature in high school and I always had the fearless attitude which eventually got me into trouble. Its better to be safe than sorry. We did go in some more caves after the accident, but this time we brought two advisors with us which is what we should have done in the first place. Now when I go cave exploring, I take more than the required safety equipment. Besides flashlights, headlights, lanterns, extra batteries, and extra lightbulbs, I also carry 2 way radios, a first aid kit, food, water, extra clothing, and rope.

you're one smart girl!! i think i'd be rather claustrophopic in a cave, though i have gone to some larger caves. i'd love to go inside a pyramid too but i don't know how i'd react.

I was thinking of Ariadne as Julie was telling her most adventurous stories. I am far too claustrobic to do that much exploring underground. However, I AM currently near Mammoth Cave, KY. I have been inside two of the caves in the US that are not lava tubes. I have been in them, also in Hawaii. Here they are karst formations. Way too confining for my senses I think. Julie, please do as John suggests and keep close contact with someone on the surface. A small GPS might also be useful!

I made the following thoughts! You need also an emergency medicine box. I am thinking also an electronic emergency transmitter that assists the outside helps find you. (I don�t know if it is existing in the market). I am thinking also a small real candle that can inform you if you have enough oxygen for breathing. But I am not expert on cave explorations. I want to give some safety instructions for those of you are interested on cave explorations. Perhaps you can find more complete information. I found the following: CAVE EXPLORATION IS A DANGEROUS ACTIVITY WHICH POTENTIALLY COULD CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY, PERMANENT DISABILITY, OR DEATH. Accidents, whether minor or serious, do not result in favorable consequences for yourself, your club, or the sport of caving. Safety and accident prevention must be practiced by each individual member at all times. Most accidents are avoidable if the hazard is noticed and/or corrected in time. It is not possible to list every hazard or wrong condition you may find when caving, or every unsafe practice you should try to avoid; however, the following precautions may be helpful to you in doing your part. Get An Idea Of What It's Like To Go Caving. Familiarize yourself with types of equipment available and when you would be wise to wear or carry each type. The use of a hard hat at all times is recommended. Most cavers find that boots are the best footgear to use, with the particular type varying with the individual. Experienced cavers are divided on the kind of clothing which is best. Some use coveralls and others prefer Levi's with sweat shirts and/or fatigue jackets. Many experienced caver prefer polypropelene and nylon caving suits. Bear in mind, when choosing the type of clothing you wear, that it is cold and damp in a cave. Also, arms and legs should be covered to protect them from cuts and scrapes. There are a number of books available which cover the subject of caving clothing and equipment, and you might find them useful. Never Go Caving Alone. It is safest to go in groups of four or more. Then, if a person is injured, at least one person may stay with the injured party and give first aid and encouragement while the others return to the surface for help. Always Tell Someone Where You Are Going And When You Plan To Return. In the event that you are lost or trapped, help will then be sent to you when you fail to appear within a reasonable length of time. Obtain Permission Before Entering A Cave. Many caves are on private land. Get permission from the owner before going caving. The "wrong end" of a shotgun is a rather uncomfortable place to find yourself! Be Prepared For Common Emergencies. Carry at least a rudimentary first aid kit, and learn the basics of first aid. Check Your Equipment Before Each Expected Use. Is your pack complete? Is your carbide light (or other primary light source) in top working condition? Are you carrying enough water and carbide, or spare parts and batteries if you are an electric caver? Is your spare parts kit included? Do you have your alternate light sources? Do you have your emergency food rations? Have you a first aid kit? If vertical work is contemplated, always check your rope and other equipment prior to use for the adequacy of their condition. If in doubt about a piece of rope, or other equipment, don't use it. Always Carry Three Sources of Light. You should carry replacements and/or spare parts for each light source. Carbide cavers need carbide, water, cleaning equipment, and spare parts. Electric cavers need batteries and bulbs. Your alternate sources could include a flashlight, with appropriate supplies, candles and matches waterproofed or in a waterproof container, etc. Never Go Beyond Your Experience. If you've never climbed cliffs, used ropes, climbed to great heights on a cable ladder, etc., a cave isn't the best place to learn. Try yourself out on the safer ground outside first. Always try to curb the tendency to engage in horseplay or to grandstand. Caves are not the place for this activity. Know Your Physical Limitations. Try to learn the limits of your abilities, and follow these self imposed limits. Don't cave to exhaustion, and THEN head for the entrance. Your fatigue could cause serious difficulties before you get there. Learn whether or not you are a good judge of distance, and whether you have a good sense of direction. Find out if constant dampness and/or a cool atmosphere rapidly sap your strength, and act accordingly. If you happen to be the first in your party to tire, don't be ashamed to say so we've all been in that position. Watch Where You Step. When underground, or when on your way to a cave, always keep alert and be sure of where you are stepping. Your principal danger outside is snakes; inside it is probably loose rock and holes. Don't Over Extend Your Reach Or Jump From Heights. Think before you stretch for a handhold or object which is slightly out of reach. A serious fall could result; and a strain or sprain which may mean little on the outside could preclude your getting out of a cave under your own steam. You shouldn't jump down from a spot because it seems to be quicker or easier than rigging or climbing. The distance might be deceptive, or you might land on loose rock. Watch Your Housekeeping. Don't scatter trash around in a cave or poison the cave owner's cattle by dumping spent carbide outside. Try to follow the motto: Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. Don't drink Cave Water. This water is often contaminated. Learn Correct Techniques. If you don't know a safe way to do a specific thing, ask someone who has more experience. Or even better, attend our training sessions and learn. Be Safety Conscious At All Times! Your safety and that of the other members of your party may depend on you! Caving can be a dangerous sport. The total and unremitting absence of light is a constant source of danger to those who explore the subterranean world. The temperature of many caves can cause hypothermia unless proper precautions are taken. The mud and the humid atmosphere create slippery conditions underground and normal above ground climbing techniques are not sufficient to insure a reasonable margin of safety in cave exploration. Virgin or infrequently visited caves almost invariably present conditions of unstable rock and treacherous hand and foot holds. Reasonable safety in caving can only be achieved through a combination of proper attitude, good equipment, and training to those already well versed in the specialized techniques of cave exploration. http://www.psc-cavers.org/psc/safety.html John

good safety tips john!

would a gps work inside a cave?

Thats a good question Wolfie. I know when we were in thick forests the GPS wouldn't work because there was too many trees in the way to track all the satalites. Yeah John, those are very good safety tips. But there's one thing that was not mentioned that I consider one of the most dangerous things of all about caving. A few weeks ago there was a terrible tragedy in Silverado Canyon, CA. Two boys walked into an abandoned mine, waded through brown murky water to a huge sandbar. They climbed over the sandbar and swam thru water over their heads and drowned because they suffocated from lack of oxygen. The oxygen over the sandbar was only 4%. Even though this was in a mine, the same thing can happen in a cave too. I know Mexico, Brazil, and other places have cave diving. Cave diving is a very dangerous sport because you can easily drown from lack of oxygen. There has been many deaths because of this. So to make things safe, NEVER wade or swim through murky water or any water for that matter unless you a e a certified cave diver and even then that is still risky. Sadly, you may not feel the signs of lack of oxygen until it is too late, just like it was for those two boys. If you start to feel lightheaded, dizzy, or numb get out as quick as possible. These are some of the signs of lack of oxygen. I know, I have felt all of them and not from going in a cave. But if you follow all the rules inlcuding all the great ones you mentioned above, caving can be a very fun and enjoyable experience.

Great reasons, all, for staying topside of a mine or cave. It seems that mines aer magnets for adventurous kids. How tragic this one was. I had not heard of it. I am distressed watching caving documentaires. Especially when they have to dive underwater to get to an unknown next chamber and do not have air tanks with them! Not my sort of adventure, even slightly! But, I do enjoy other people's adventures and photos brought back to surface... sort of...!

i heard about the abandoned mine too.

Normally, GPS cannot work inside a cave. So, better, simple and secure is the Ariadne's ball of thread. John

Ariadne's ball of string and perhaps a hand held communication system much like a "walkie talkie" used by the miliraty and available widely in just about every electronics store in the US. They have very limited range so that must be taken into consideration. The rule of caving should be never go inside alone and always keep a person topside for safety in case you get into trouble!

Usual Walkie-Talkies are not suggested too. They are working well in the open area but not through rocks. The secret is on the frequency that they use. You can use Walkie-Talkies 27Mc/s for short distances but inside the cave the result is expected not well. Higher frequencies are not penetrating the rocks surely. Mike, can help better on it. John

so what do professional cave explorers use?

Harlan Bretz had a dog and a flashlight.

LACONIA, GREECE Dyros Caves in Laconia, Greece, overlooking the Messenian Gulf (ill. 2), were known already at the end of the 19th century, but their scientific exploration began almost half a century later. In 1949, Ioannis and Anna Petrochilos explored 5,000 square meters of the large cavern they named Glyfada (or Vlyhada), covering 33,400 square meters. In 1958 they explored the second large cave, called Alepotripa. The explorations revealed prehistoric graffitti, skeletons, weapons, and fragments of pottery. The Dyros cave complex, still not completely charted, is among the largest and most spectacular in Europe, featuring incredible formations of stalactites and stalagmites, an underground stream and lakes, narrow passages and enormous halls (ill. 1, 3-9). Today, a flat-bottom boat tour around Glyfada takes about thirty minutes. Scholars believe that at the end of the neolitic period a cataclysmic earthquake caused the sea to flood the caves, kill all their inhabitants, and hide the entrance for 45 centuries. http://www.rollins.edu/Foreign_Lang/Greek/dyros.html John

Those are fantastic pictures John!

I visited this cave in 1975. It was fantastic experience Julie. I travelled 2500 meters inside by a boat. Boatman was tour guide simultaneously. Whole cave floor is an underground river. The roof and the walls are all a continue stalagmite. There are also small islands of stalactites. Variety of colours is amazing. Whole cave is illuminated suitably from inside the water. John

That is truly amazing! Nothing I have ever been in looks as beautiful as that.

Water of the river (inside that cave) is very clear and cold. It is strange that whole cave is about in the sea level. Upwards of the cave is a whole mountain. John

lovely pictures, john!! i'll need to dig out my pics (if i took any) of the cave we visited in texas.

Oh John!!! This is magnificent.(I am quickly running out of words to extoll your virtues as a poster!) My singlular cave experience was in Luray Caves in Viriginia similar but I think smaller than your cave- and we had to walk.I am near Mammoth cavesbut I think I will not venture in. For some reason, I have become a bit claustrophobic, and as a result, caves no longer hold much fascination for me.I do appreciate your pictures,though. It must have been so beautiful...

Lava Beds National Monument has over 400 lava tubes and more are discovered every year. 18 of them are accessable. Mushpot Cave is located right in the parking lot of Lava Beds Visitor Center. Indian Well Cave forms unusual ice formations in the winter and also has a pool of water covering the cave floor, Labyrinth and Lava Brooks Cave are connected by a small narrow segment that can be crawled through. Some of the features in this cave are frothy pahoehoe, lava pillars, lava benches, and lavacicles. Thuderbolt Cave is partically collpased. Golden Dome Cave has some unusual yellow bactaria deposits covering most of the cave which gives it its name. Hopkins Chocolate Cave was named for its dark brown coloring that resembles chocolate. Blue Gratto Cave leads up to its name for its unique pale blue powder on the cave ceiling. Catacombs Cave is the longest cave in the Monument (6,903 feet). Ovis Cave when first discovered contained 36 bighorn sheep skulls. Sunshine Cave has two collapses which allow sunlight to get in forming hanging gardens and lava cascades. Hercules Leg and Juniper Cave have very interesting lava formations. Sentinel Cave is a lava tube within a lava tube. Valentine Cave has unusual ceiling formations, cascades, falls, and pools. Skull Cave when first discovered contained 2 human skulls, bones of antelope, mountain goats, and bighorn sheep. Skull cave is two lava tubes on top of each other. The lower level has an ice floor all year round. Merrill Cave also has an ice floor all year round. Balcony and Boulevard Cave contains natural bridges and a very smooth cave floor. Big Painted Cave connects to Symbol Bridge, which is where petroglyphs are seen on the cave walls. Heppe Ice Cave is very unique as well. Lichens and minerals combine to make very colorful patterns on the cave walls and also has an ice floor year round.

Son and Daughter in law took pictures of some of the lava tubes at LAVA BEDS

I'll try to get some of them. They seem VERY like the ones in Hawaii. Are all lava tubes the same? Julie, come to Hawaii and tell me!

Wow! Marcia, I forgot about those lava tube photos you asked me to scan to you several months back. They have been waiting to post for ages so I think I will do that right now.

Lava Tube in El Malpais National Monument, New Mexico Valentine Cave in Lava Beds National Monument, California Lava River Cave, Newberry National Volcanic Monument, Oregon Ape Cave, south side of Mt. St. Helens, Washginton

Hi all WOW!! These are impressive!! I will have to go back to MSH to do that, as well as see what is new in the devastation zone. THIS IS COOL!!!! Rob

Yours are oblate!!! The ones in Hawaii are round. Is this another example of yours being from a non-pahoehoe flow and ours are (pahoehoe is marked by perfectly round vesicles and a'a with flattened or misshaped vesicles.) Great pictures, Julie. Send me the others you wanted to and I will get them ready for you to post before I leave for TN this afternoon!

had no idea lava tubes were soooooo big!!

They can be HUGE. Still, not my favorite place to use for fall-out shelters!

Hi all They are excellent pictures of impressive lava tubes! Thank you for posting them Julie. I did not know that the lava tubes were so big. I wonder for how much secure we are is inside them. -Is possible a new eruption inside this tube during the visit? -What will happen during a mid-magnitude EQ? -Is possible the existence or a suddenly release poison gases inside there? -What is the level of radioactivity? And a practice question: -What information can collect a volcanologist inside there? John

In answer to your excellent thoughtful questions, I submit the following. I have been assured that the lava tube in which I am supposed to survive a nuclear explosion is both plugged and not possible to be used by Kilauea for future eruptions. I still wonder if one was close enough that it might crack the entire plumbing system on Kilauea and none of the assurances would matter. Volcanogists can ascertain movement by hand held seimometers. Radon and other radioactive gases can be monitored with insturments such as you monitor your house with in Greece *;) One can feel the heat building up in the volcano's ducting system just by being there but far more sensitive electronic devices can do much better than that. Mini tilt-meters can detect summit swelling. By that time if all are sensing positive results, it is best to get out of the lava tube.

Some nice pix of California Caverns by jleft@well.com Jim Leftwich http://www.anigami.com/jimwich/jimwich_archives/jwpicts_7_8_9_2002/GCU.html

I have just been handed two books - one on Indiana caves and one on the caves of Kentucky. The latter contains a National Park- Mammoth Cave. Since I have gotten us a passport to the US National Park system, we may have to visit so I can get mine stamped.

That is really a great site, Terry. I do find thumbnails very pleasing and quick to download. Thanks for calling it to our attention.

I wish I still had a copy of Harlan Bretz 'Cave of Missouri'; it's a classic. Maybe it's still available on amazon's used books.

Bretz, Harlan J.: Caves of Missouri Price: $100.00 (Whoa!) Description: 4to -over 9�" - 12" tall Quoting from title page: " Vol. XXXIX, Second Series". A beautiful book, bound in dark green cloth with gilt spine titles. Book shows very little w... read more Merchant: The Old Book Shop (22) Details: 4to - over 9�" - 12" tall Quoting from title page: " Vol. XXXIX, Second Series". A beautiful book, bound in dark green cloth with gilt spine titles. Book shows very little wear, inside or out. Publisher: State of Missouri Place of Publication: Jefferson City Mo Date of Publication: 1956 Binding: Hard Cover Condition: Near Fine Keywords: Missouri, CAVES, GEOLOGY

Whoa! Indeed. I will have to wonder about them in that case. Any place with mountains surely has caves. Niter mining was done to make gunpowder from cave soil. It was laborious and time consuming, but if you want to fight a war you need nitrates. Potassium Nitrate, specifically. I know this because I have an exhaustive bibliography published by Ohio Valley Historical Archaeology and authored by Donald B. Ball and Gary A. O'Dell. The introduction to the bibliography is an excellent history of niter mining. Mammoth Cave in Kentucky was used during the Civil War as were many other caves and rock shelter sources. Curious how nitrates form in soil of caves and under barns and old houses. It even renews itself. But, this being said, this is a worst case scenario way to get your nitrates.

as i was talking about in the natural gemstones topic, we went to the Natural Bridge Caverns this afternoon. didn't take a camera but had fun anyway. absolutely amazing what the earth can do. beautiful formations and i sure wanted to get off the path and explore. probably would've been a lot more fun for the eldest pup. we can learn so much more by touching but imagine millions of hands on those formations!! only went into the North cave because the other one was sold out (and we weren't hanging out all afternoon for that tour). maybe we'll go back for it tomorrow. the last time i came through this tour was 20 years ago! go caving with your family, it's awesome!!

Where is Natural Bridge Caverns?

a bit north of san antonio.....they have a drive-thru wildlife ranch too...

Great bison? Elk? Native stuff? I'd be glad for a really secure car in that case. Take advantage of what is there. It sounds fabulous.

lots of african grazers--elands, zebra, gazelle, rams, water buffalo (ok, maybe he was from australia), bison (who was nibbling right out of my hand), ostrich and emu...the day we went was pretty warm but we had all the windows down with our hands hanging out the windows!

Fall rut is in full swing. If you go there and drop something, be careful of how you bend over to pick it up ! Seriously. I have seen signs to that effect.

we went in august and boy was it hot!

Natural tunnel in Virginia is the only natural tunnel used as a train tunnel in the entire world. Picture (tiny but you can see http://www.virginia.org/site/features.asp?FeatureID=235 There are much better pictures from when Victorian adventurers went hiking in there. It looks like a huge bullet hole in a cliff face.

i like caves but not squeezing through tight passages and stuff--that would be too freaky! unless, i guess, i had a buddy (which anyone going through a cave better have) who kept a cool head and a very very good flashlight (i mean, a big honkin' flashlight, not one of those penlights or anything).

Name some Ky caves.

MAMMOTH CAVE is a National Park. In that area (most of the state is karst topography and full of caves known and yet unknown) there are several open to the public. Diamond Cave. Big Bone Cave (paleontological specimens found there) Niter cave. There is even a cave county in eastern KY.

have you been to many yet?

I'm working on it. DB has a major book on Niter manufacturing in the offing so I would like to see Mammoth Caves where niter was being produced during the War of 1812 and there are artifacts from the manufacturing operations still there. Great Saltpeter Cave in eastern KY is another.

http://www.backcountrymaps.com/ is a real good mapping service for that back country trip. Trip reports. Featured maps. Sample report: 06/26/06 - Huge google imagery update. Indian Peaks, RMNP, Teton Pass and much more! Awesome for scouting and research. Thanks Google 05/18/06 - USGS and gisdata.usgs still down! System Administration 101 anyone? 05/15/06 - More USGS downtime! "Downtime: Posted: 5-11-06 The problems that the Seamless Server has been experiencing due to security patches issued by Microsoft two weeks ago have greatly affected our service. We have been working to correct that problem and are now testing the "patch to the patch" that Microsoft has issued to resolve the problems introduced in the last patch set. They seem to be working well, and Seamless is running with limited capacity. If our plans go well, Seamless will be back to normal next week." Wow, awesome service from another stellar government agency and sole provider of this data. Go figure. 05/09/06 - Dreamhost issues resolved again. It looks like changes were made to the Rails configuration without any notification or thought. 05/04/06 - USGS WMS data issues fixed. New layers added. Sorry for the slow updates, I've been snowboarding and doing the backcountry thing lately. 04/28/06 - Terraserver-usa.com is having issues. Topo and Aerial layers are effected. No ETA on recovery. 04/22/06 - USGS Server Downtime. "The system is currently experiencing an interruption of service. All Seamless servers and services will be unavailable until further notice. Unknown ETA on recovery." 04/22/06 - Although we can't guarantee 100% uptime from the various WMS data overlays, most come via government sanctioned projects and at the most experience slowness from time to time. For best results allow map time to load fully, we recommend turning your browsers status bar on and looking for the "Done" or "Completed" status. 04/20/06 - My Maps clean up, new features. Added 2 new Featured Maps with new data overlays. US Fire Detections & Danger Forecast & US Seismic & Volcanic Hazards. This information via NRL GIDB. 04/18/06 - My Maps users can now create markers and waypoints by clicking anywhere on the map. Created function to display My Maps on other web sites. You can now reference your My Map via an iframe and even set up custom map sizes. More to come.. 04/17/06 - USGS Server Downtime. "..currently unavailable due to maintenance. We expect the system to be operational by 4:00 PM CST." 04/15/06 - New real time weather overlay, "Wx Ext" button at the top of the map. Wind direction, speed, nexrad, temps and other information via GIDB Portal and AccuWeather WMS. We reported an issue with the WMS server and overlay transparency -- Thanks to Lev and the DMAP team this is now fixed! 04/15/06 - My Maps module completed. Allows registered users to add up to 10 custom My Maps, each map can be public or private. Group collabration and trip planning soon. Contact Us if you are interested in becoming a beta test user. You get the idea!

I have reached the exalted state of carrying my own Palm pilot and a GPS attached with software by Magellan. The maps are great and I am still learning the finer points of using it. Mapping available on the internet has come a long way since it first appeared. Great website, Terry. We can never have too many maps.