This is one of my favorite Geology subjects - an opinion not shared by my son. He hated it. But, I think he has the family fossils. For the record, a fossil is the remains of a formerly living organism in which each and every organic part has been replaced with rock (silica, usually) down to the minutest detail. Petrified wood is a good example. You can count the tree rings, and the bark looks like you could peel it off, but it is solid rock. For those not into the very old and a little strange collecting of dead animal remains and what they left behind when they were here, allow me to introduce you to a few. *Gastroliths* - these are the stomach stones from the belly of a dinosaur. You can tell that is what they are by their rounded appearance and the fact that they are found in bunches among the bones of the animal about where the midgut would have been. Technically, not a fossil, but I want one anyway! *Coprolites* - This is something you likely would not want for an engagement ring, but it does get the most amazing reaction when you tell someone handling your specimen that it is fossilized dung left behind by those Jurrasic Parkers. If you find several and the teacher gets to have one, You will be treated very well, indeed!

I'll keep my eyes peeled for those, Marcia! (*grin) Paleontology is one of my favorite subjects, too, Marcia! Not many folks around this area to talk to about it, though, so, I usually just read up. I've loved dinosaurs since I was a very small child, and, used to read the "Childcraft" books and World Book articles and stories about them. I'm minus satellite tv, right now, which means that I am missing all of those good shows on Discovery channel! Yikes! I frequently check out library books on paleontology, standing in line behind kids with history books a d women with the romances. I get strange looks...then, again, I get those, anyway...:)

*lol* Annette, you are my kind of lady. People have long since given up on my being conventional. Check out Jurassic Park which is linked to Wolfie's and my SpringArk (really her idea, though!) It is hard to know which category best fits the coprolite. Precious or semi-precious stones...so I put them in Paleo. I am jumping up and down Happy that you are here and also into this most esoteric branches of Geology. If ya find some, Talk to me...I have some pieces of the mantle which are all peridotite and look like finely ground peridots which is what it is!!!

Happy to be here and discussing a most interesting subject, indeed! Have you ever gotten your hands on the PIT (Passport in Time) magazine? I used to get one, every late winter, with all of the archaeology digs, etc. going on around the country that allowed "amateurs" to assist. Many interesting goings-ons! But, I moved, and, evidently, they don't forward, and, now, I can't find the address. I'll keep digging!

"Digging"...hmmm...no pun intended, really...! ;)

Please keep digging. I currently subscribe to snailmail Archaeology, Odyssey, and Biblical Archaeology Review (Old Testament era archaeology)na dkeep up with my original love, British Archaeology on the net. Each spring the magazines publish digs which accept volunteers and how to get in touch and all that. One of the most difficult things I ever did was to tear myself away from a huge pit in the middle of London which begged for volunteers to excavate finds before being covered by a skyscraper. Arrrrrgh!!!

uh...I dig your digging...*grin* Never heard of that magazine but am most curious...

I'll go a'searchin', then.....:)

The T-Rex Fossil The fossil, currently owned by Detrich fossils, a Kansas-based paleontological group, contains the most perfect skull and largest teeth (some measuring 13 inches) ever discovered. The fossil is nicknamed Mr. Z-Rex in honor of the owners of the private property where the fossil was discovered. Bids for the T-Rex are beginning at $5.8 million. Appraisers believe a T-Rex fossil of this quality can bring an additional $40 million in permanent, annual revenue to the museum that acquires it. Mr. Z-Rex was discovered on October 6, 1992 by paleontologists Alan & Robert Detrich while exploring fossil deposits on a private cattle ranch in northwestern South Dakota. The skull was found in a sand formation. It is thought that the T-Rex died on the sandy shoreline of a prehistoric river, sea or lake. Mr. Z-Rex has the best skull with the largest teeth I have seen. The fossil is absolutely breath-taking. This truly is the King of T-Rex's - a paleontologist's dream come true. -Alan Deitrich -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The specimen was excavated according to professional standards and transported without damage. Skeletal elements have been exposed by partial preparation from the original undersurface of three major blocks. These blocks contain, respectively, the skull, the presacral vertebrae, and elements of the hind limbs and anterior portion of the tail. Great care was taken to collect all fragments of bone from from the locality, which may permit the reassemblage of several bones which would otherwise have been lost. Stabilization of the skeletal parts will present no unusual problems, and the extraction of the bones from the sediment in which they are preserved will vary from relatively easy to requiring considerable skill. Details Length of skull 1370 mm Length of tooth row, left maxilla 560 mm (approximately) Length of tooth row, left dentary 530 mm Length of articulated cervicals from the anterior zygapophysis of C4 to the posterior zygapophysis of C10 985 mm Length of dorsal 4-6 taken at base of transverse processes 393 mm Length of posterior dorsal vertebra 140 mm Height of posterior dorsal vertebra 653 mm Length of 13 articulated caudal vertebrae 2780 mm Length of centra of two isolated caudals 152 and 132 mm Length of femur 1330 mm Circumference of femur 588 mm (indicating a weight of 5.5 metric tonnes) Length of fibula 965 mm (approximately) Length of metatarsal II 620 mm Length of metatarsal III 750 mm Length of metatarsal IV 640, 655 mm Length of phalanx r-1 120 mm The total length of the reconstructed skeleton is estimated to be approximately 10.8 m (35 feet). The total reconstructed height at the hips is estimated to be approximately 3.45 m (11.35 feet).

What a find! Think about a thirteen inch tooth...! T-Rex...hunter or scavenger? Opinions...???

He was the ultimate killing machine with powerful hind legs which allowed him to run down anything on earth. Nothing has even come clost to the T_Rex is the power concentrated in the enormous hind legs and the razor-sharp teeth.

Definitely! I believe that T.Rex did whatever was necessary to survive, hunting or taking food away from others, having evolved into the "killing machine"!

The news today showed a huge dinasaur egg in South Korea, at least twice as large as any other ever unearthed. Weird shape though, very long and narrow.

All the ones I have ever seen were long and narrow with blunt ends. I wonder what huge dinosaur was gonna hatch from that one. I am sure they will xray it. Let me know if you hear anymore about it! Thanks Lucie!

Monstrous Dinosaur Found In Texas Jan. 7, 2000 -- Texas paleontologists have discovered a hulking giant of a dinosaur with a neck more than 30 feet long and a vertebra weighing up to 1,200 pounds. The researchers say the fossil is probably by far the largest dinosaur ever found in the Lone Star State. "This thing is just bloody enormous," says Homer Montgomery, a paleontologist at the University of Texas at Dallas, who along with his students found the creature in a wilderness area of South Texas� Big Bend National Park last fall. Montgomery and his team were able to haul out the two smallest cervical, or neck, vertebrae -- one weighing 367 pounds and the other 470 pounds -- by hand before leaving the dig for the winter. Most of the creature remains in the ground near an established bone bed full of juvenile Alamosaurus remains dating to the Late Cretaceous, only a few million years before dinosaurs died out. Alamosaurus, part of a dinosaur family known as titanosaurs, was the last of the long-necked dinosaurs called sauropods to roam North America, but is so far known only from scattered and broken remains. The 23-foot length of the new dinosaur�s neck may represent the largest intact section of the largest Alamosaurus ever found. But its monstrous dimensions also suggest that it could be an entirely new species that exceeds the accepted 70-foot length of Alamosaurus adults by some 30 feet, Montgomery says. "We know so little about this dinosaur that any find is important and something this large is doubly so," says Tony Fiorillo, a paleontologist at the Dallas Museum of Natural History who has also worked in Big Bend. Montgomery plans to return to the remote desert site in February to remove more of the 10 vertebrae his team has already exposed and to excavate ribs and other bones protruding from the ground. As the largest of the vertebrae measures more than five feet across and weighs about 1,200 pounds, a helicopter may eventually have to airlift the ancient creature out of the wilderness, says National Park Service geologist Don Corrick. By Michael Milstein, Discovery News Brief

Wow! Annette - didya see my wallpaper? It's back! Now I gotta go into the deep stuff and change the addresses for the other graphics...sigh...Maybe I better copy the information to file just in case. I'd hate to lose the entire conference in the configuring tweaking...! Why am I not surprised that the mystery dinosaur was found in Texas?! It has to be the biggest baddest dino ever! Thanks for posting that.

Guess we gotta "remember the Alamosaurus," now?!

LOL, an Alamosaurus, indeed! ;-) Wallpaper looks great - definitely save those files! Those are good conversations, as well as good reference material! :)

I save files of all topics which amuse and/or interest me...including your and my Screwed topics!

THOSE files could actually be used as "evidence"...! (*snickering)

Uhoh! shall I eat them? Hide them? hmmm... surely not as evidence of higher intelligence on Earth...*lol*

(I thought we vowed not to tell THEM about that.....) (*looking cautiously over each shoulder) ;-)

....Sshhhhhhhh..... GULP! All gone!

Whew....! I can breathe, again...

Those coprolite-flavored files were a little hard (*grin*) to swallow! Let's try a different flavor next time...!

LOL...ooooh, you're a reeeaal tough one, indeed!

Thanks, Annette, for sending this to me (via a different link, but this one posts better *grin*) State Fossils 1. Alabama - archaeocete whale, Basilosaurus cetoides, Eocene 2. Alaska - woolly mammoth, Mammuthus primigenius, Pleistocene 3. Arkansas - none 4. Arizona - petrified wood, Araucarioxylon arizonicum, Triassic 5. California - sabertooth cat, Smilodon fatalis, Pleistocene 6. Colorado - dinosaur, Stegosaurus stenops, Jurassic 7. Connecticut - gigantic, three-toed dinosaur track, Eubrontes giganteus, Triassic 8. Delaware - belemnite (cephalopod), Belemnite americana, Cretaceous 9. Florida - sea urchin, Eupatagus antillarum, Eocene (State Stone - agatized coral) 10. Georgia - shark's tooth, genus and species unspecified, Tertiary 11. Hawaii - none 12. Kansas - none 13. Idaho - Hagerman Horse Fossil, Equus simplicidens (originally described as Plesippus shoshonensis), Pliocene 14. Illinois - Tully Monster, Tullimonstrum gregarium, Carboniferous 15. Indiana - none (crinoid did not survive legislative review) 16. Iowa - crinoid, genus, species unspecified, Upper Paleozoic 17. Kentucky - brachiopod, genus and species unspecified, Paleozoic 18. Louisiana - petrified palmwood, Palmoxylon sp., Oligocene 19. Maine - early vascular land plant, Pertica quadrifaria, Devonian 20. Maryland - gastropod, Ecphora gardnerae gardnerae, Miocene 21. Massachusetts - dinosaur tracks, genus and species unspecified, Triassic 22. Michigan (State Stone) - Petoskey Stone, Hexagonaria percarinata, Devonian 23. Minnesota - none 24. Mississippi - archaeocete whale, Zygorhiza kochii, Eocene 25. Missouri - crinoid, Delocrinus missouriensis, Carboniferous 26. Montana - duck-billed dinosaur, Maiasaura peeblesorum, Cretaceous 27. Nebraska - mammoth, Mammuthus imperator mailbeni, Pleistocene 28. Nevada - ichthyosaur, Shonisaurus popularis, Triassic 29. New Hampshire - none 30. New Jersey - dinosaur (Hadrosaur), Hadrosaurus foulki, Cretaceous 31. New Mexico - dinosaur, Coelophysis sp., Triassic 32. New York - eurypterid, Eurypterus remipes, Silurian 33. North Carolina - none 34. North Dakota - Teredo Petrified Wood, Paleocene 35. Ohio - trilobite, Isotelus sp., Ordovician 36. Oklahoma - none 37. Oregon - none 38. Pennsylvania - trilobite, Phacops rana, Devonian 39. Rhode Island - none 40. South Carolina - none 41. South Dakota - dinosaur, Triceratops prorosus, Cretaceous NOTE: back in 1988 the state fossil was the cycad, Cycadopsida. 42. Tennessee - pelecypod, Pterotrigonia (Scabrotrigonia) thoracica, Cretaceous 43. Texas (State Stone) - petrified palmwood, Palmoxylon sp., Oligocene State Dinosaur - Brachiosaur Sauropod, Pleurocoelus sp., Cretaceous. 44. Utah - dinosaur, Allosaurus fragilis, Jurassic 45. Vermont - Charlotte, The Vermont Whale (beluga whale), Delphinapterus leucas, Pleistocene 46. Virginia - pelecypod, Chesapecten jeffersonius, Pliocene 47. Washington - Columbian Mammoth, Mammuthus columbi, Pleistocene (State Gem - petrified wood, genus and species unspecified, Tertiary) 48. West Virginia (State Gem) - rugose coral, Lithostrotionella sp., Mississippian 49. Wisconsin - trilobite, Calymene celebra, Silurian 50. Wyoming - State Fossil - fresh-water herring, Knightia sp., Eocene State Dinosaur - dinosaur, Triceratops, Cretaceous

Well, Marcia...remember my telling you about that dinosaur dig a few years in possibly (?) the Gobi where they discovered the remains of a "nameforgotten" with the crocodilish-type head and body similar to T-Rex? Just to let you know, it's driving me craaaazy until I find it! LOL, I am still tearing through boxes in the garage, knowing that I would have never thrown anything like that away!

I am hanging on your every word and sending happy hunting vibes. Indeed, I remember your crocodile-headed wonder. Geez, I though I was the only one with boxes of that stuff I just could never imagine throwing away. If I can ever clear this house of the junk the resident male has stashed, I'm gonna got hrough them and put the articles in marked boxes in categories. and use the former office as my library!!!

LOL, I know the feeling! My resident male used to do the flea-market circuit, so, you can only imagine what the garage looks like!

Gadzooks! Not another flea market male?! Mine closed in my double garage and stacked it to the ceiling with metal shelves. We cannot even move in there, so he built a carport. Same! Built another carport. Alost same but our new car is sharing it...but truck was getting wet so built another separate garage. I said ENOUGH!!! Can't move in there, either, but that will have to do. We also have two vans parked on the lawn...and I do not drive! (Please, I know what I should have done years ago...!)

Aaaaah, yes - another! I know all about the metals shelves, plus, stacks of LPs, antiques, collectible cards, furniture, old dishes, etc.,etc...heck, there may be a few fossils lying around out there - I just haven't found them, yet! :)

Might those fossils be old lovers best forgotten? We can make up a good story and pass it off like they did the Piltdown man...*lol*

Ah, yes - it could work...for a while! There's gotta be a skeleton or petrified something-or-another out there...! Must dig around some more... ;)

Annette and Marcia, you do seem to have a hardtime with your RMs! I hate clutter. When I moved into my appartment (wot! almost 4 years ago) I got rid of everything I did not truly like. Now I'm thinking I should move again ;-) The US are so rich in fossils. We also have a couple or so dinossaurs around here, but I've never seen them, and don't even know what they are. One I think is just the footprints.

Oh Gi, there is one little problem.. MY stuff is not the problem. It is House male's clutter! Absolutely! That is why I hole up in the computer corner of the bedroom for refuge! I heard yesterday that one of the most famous footprints of dinosaurs was man made with a chain saw!

Many interesting discoveries turn out to be frauds :-( I had understood about the clutter being his... What I meant was, sometimes the only way to get rid of it is to move house!

...or move out the clutterer. I am considering it.

LOL, I'm just afraid of going out to the garage and becoming on of those lost fossils, myself! ("Last time we saw her, she was going out there to find a lost family member...")

Yup! Know exactly what you mean. Even if I left a trail of bread crumbs, string or styrofoam packing thingies to help me find my way back, I am sure there is a monster living in there with the sole purpose of grabbing me and holding me inert for all time - sorta like Medusa.

Marcia is your significant other the one who keeps everything in the garage but the car?

YUP! Make that IO Insignificant Other, or OO Obsessive Other (the one I prefer as the O'O is an extinct Hawaiian bird - a striking similarity, actually!)

well, the AM in my lair likes to grab stuff off of garbage piles and fix them up. he's actually good at it except for a couple of barbecue grills out back. (he gives them away when he gets them running again-stuff like lawn mowers and weedeaters)....

Gads, yes! But for every one he gives away there are 3 waiting for a part off another salvage one which never seems to appear. *sigh*

been there, done that, no t-shirt :(

WAaaaaaaaaaa! Me too...=(

ok, i've got two fossils (or rocks with impressions on them):

i've got all sides of the cylindrical fossil....

Thanks for the end-on shot of the columnar fossil. Too big for a crinoid...is it? It looks like a tiny palm tree truck the way the leaf scars appear in the top picture. Don't know...went to get my fossil book and found my Welsh Dictionary. *sigh* Do you have any idea what they are (were)? The on on the top right looks like a bivalve. A clam of some sort...

the column fossil looks like the inside of a mushroom (if you look inside it). and the measurements were in cm...don't know what a crinoid is!

fossil collections: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8147/

i dunno, marcia, the pictures at http://bcrc.bio.umass.edu/Crinoid/ don't look anything like the fossil i have.....

These pictures are not very good about the crinoid stems - they are like sea anemones (animals) but are called sea lilies. The stems look like a stack of Smarties. All of their pictures show only head of the animal where the frond-like appendages wave in the water catching plancton for food.

i know...the picture of the living ones looked like centipedes......

Wow...that is a change. The ancient ones looked like tiny palm trees with a long stalk standing upright and feathery "arms" at the end collecting food by waving in the current like a tree in the breeze.

Morocco finds 65-million-year-old reptile bones RABAT, May 12 (Reuters) - Moroccan experts have discovered remains of a 65-million-year-old reptile species about 200 kms (125 miles) south of Rabat, an official said on Friday. "On May 5 (they) found three skeletons of what was identified as the mesosaurus species in the phosphates-rich area of Khouribga," the mines ministry official told Reuters. Ministry experts were alerted by local farmers in the village of Oulad Bouali, near Khouribga, who reported having unearthed "strange skeletons", he said. "It is apparently the first time that this kind of species has been found in Morocco. According to the first estimate, these skeletons date back around 65 million years ... A scientific analysis and assessment of this discovery will be announced later this year." The authoritative newspaper Liberation said a group of French experts had joined the Moroccan researchers to help pin down "the age and nature of these species". Mesosaurus were early reptiles dating back up to 250 million years. An slim, aquatic animal about one metre (3.3 feet) long, it lived in freshwater lakes and ponds. Khouribga is located in a basin that millions of years ago was covered by Atlantic Ocean waters, which created a fertile environment for such reptile species, experts said.

Hominids in Europe - Pre-humans go out of Africa. Three skull dug from under a medieval town in the former Soviet Republic of Georgia and dating back 1.7 million years may represent the first pre-humans who migrated out of Africa and into Europe, researchers said on Thursday.The skulls look like those of early humans who lived in East Africa at the same time, and a wealth of tools found at the site look like tools made by the African pre-humans. Previously Thought Too Primitive This is surprising because archaeologists had believed the species of hominid, called Homo ergaster, was too primitive to have made the long and difficult journey from African savanna to the challenging terrain of Europe. �These constitute the first well-documented humans that came out of Africa,� Reid Ferring, a geologist and archaeologist at the University of North Texas at Denton who worked on the study, said in a telephone interview. �We suggest that these hominids may represent the same species that initially dispersed from Africa and from which the Asian branch of H. erectus was derived,� the team of U.S., Georgian, French and German scientists wrote in their report, published in the journal Science. The rest of the story is available at http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/hominid_caucasus000512.html

Hunting Prehistoric Hurricanes Storm-tossed sand offers a record of ancient cyclones By J. Travis to better look forward, investigators have decided to look further back in time. As part of a fledgling discipline called paleotempestology, they've begun to search for signs of hurricanes that predate recorded history. At the forefront of this effort is Kam-biu Liu of Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge. By unearthing sand layers deposited by massive hurricanes in coastal lakes and marshes, his research group has identified storms that have struck the U.S. coast over the past 5,000 years. In February, Liu described his results at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington, D.C. "It's the first time we've been able to peer back before the historical record to see how hurricanes vary in time," says Kerry A. Emanuel of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who would like to use such data to test whether the anticipated global warming will increase the number of severe hurricanes. Scientists aren't alone in taking an interest in paleotempestology. Most of the field's funding comes from the Risk Prediction Initiative, an effort bankrolled by insurance companies in need of better data with which to predict the odds of a severe hurricane landfall in a specific region. Considering that category 4 and 5 hurricanes can cause billions of dollars in damage, the future of these insurance companies may rest on the accuracy of their estimates. Paleotempestology "is a nice scientific challenge, but it's [also] got a very practical outcome," notes Thompson Webb III of Brown University in Providence, R.I., who has conducted work similar to Liu's. When the category 4 hurricane ripped through Galveston in 1900, wind and rain alone produced significant damage and some loss of life. But as in many such tempests, the real killer was the flooding by the storm surge. Hurricane winds blowing over shallows near a coastline can raise up a dome of salt water 50 to 100 miles across. This storm surge can send up to 25 feet of water into the region where a hurricane makes landfall. If a lake or marsh sits not far from the coast, the storm surge may also leave an enduring imprint of the hurricane. Sand from the ocean floor or beach can be thrown inland with the water, eventually settling to the bottom of the lakes or marshes in a discernible sediment layer that records the storm's impact. More of the story at http://www.sciencenews.org/20000520/bob2.asp

okay which is you Marcia?

okay which is you Marcia?

The one in the white shirt.

I think I must still be asleep - where's the pic marcia?

oops - is that the one you sent me?

Yup - but it is also in the Travel conference in the Hawaii topic...where you and Terry were wandering around Hilo. Wouldn't it be fun to bump into you on your perigrinations?! (Virtual bumping is not as satisfying, somehow...)

You never know ....

...this is true...and I might bump into someone who lives even closer - not at all out of the realm of possibility....

Hmmmm *severe look* *grin*

*laugh* He is still at his computer - rest easy. Did you check the most recent post in Geo 2. it is amamzing and terrifying at the same time!

on my way ...

Science News Online - Week of June 17, 2000; Vol. 157, No. 25 Neandertals' diet put meat in their bones B. Bower Neandertals' bones preserve a story of their consuming passion for flesh. Telltale chemicals in two fossils now portray Neandertals as avid meat eaters who hunted often and skillfully. Neandertals lived in Europe and the Middle East from about 130,000 to 28,000 years ago. The new information counters a theory that they mainly scavenged scraps of meat from abandoned carcasses, says a team led by archaeologist Michael P. Richards of the University of Oxford in England. "Our findings provide conclusive proof that European Neandertals were top-level carnivores who lived on a diet of mainly hunted animal meat," contends team member Fred H. Smith, an anthropologist at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb. Richards' group analyzed the proportions of stable forms of carbon and nitrogen in bone samples from a Neandertal jaw and skull fragment. A preponderance of carbon signals heavy consumption of plants in the last few years of an organism's life; nitrogen's dominance betrays intense meat eating. The finds came from a 28,000-year-old Croatian cave (SN: 10/30/99, p. 277). More...http://www.sciencenews.org/20000617/fob4.asp

Fossil insects in rocks By Xavier Mart�nez-Delcl�s & Ed Jarzembowski The fossil record of insects contrary to what we think, is abundant and very diverse. If outcrops with fossil insects are rare compared to those with other kinds of invertebrates, especially marine ones, then they compensate by yielding large number of specimens and taxa. The fossil insects are often well preserved and articulated, allowing morphological comparisons with Recent forms, adoption of the same systematic system, and inclusion in phylogenetic studies. Fossil insects also occur as disarticulated remains, especially wings, and various trace fossilsrecording ancient activity. In the fossil record we have feeding traces (on leaves), colonial structures such as termite nests and combs, galls, burrows etc. In the same outcrops, insects can be found from different habitats, both aquatic and terrestrial. There is also evidence of palaeobiological associations such as symbiosis, parasitism, commensalism, phoretic associations, and examples of co-evolution. The earliest reference to fossil insects is by Gaius Plinius Secundus - Pliny the Elder (24-79 B.C.). In his work Naturalis Historia, he described amber and the insect inclusions in it. In this period another writer, Marcus Valerius Martalis (40-104 BC) poetically described the occurrence of fossil insect inclusions. HOW INSECTS FOSSILISE: factors which favour the preservation of fossil insects. Insects, because of their delicate exoskeleton, have usually been considered by palaeontologist as soft bodied organisms! This is true for example of some holometabolous larvae but it is not a good description of the exoskeleton of common adult beetles (Coleoptera). Nevertheless, if we compare insect preservation with invertebrates possessing hard, mineralised exoskeletons, then insects need some special conditions for fossilisation. As always in the fossil record, the chances of preservation are directly related to the degree of mineralization of the skeleton: in insect, the sclerotisation or hardness of the exoskeleton is significant. For this reason, we often find isolated parts such as tegmina of cockroaches and elytra of beetles at outcrop. Chitin, one of the principal compounds of the insect's cuticle, is one of the most abundant biopolymers on Earth, it is more resistant to degradation than protein, for example, but it is rarely preserved in the fossil record. Usually, during diagenesis, chitin is transformed to other organic compounds. Another factor that favours the preservation of insect remains is those individuals that lived in habitats close to or forming part of the sedimentary palaeoenvironment such as lakes or lagoons; in the case of amber, those insects living around resin-producing trees. It is worth noting that, in terrestrial strata, the preservation of chitin is more likely than in marine deposits (Stankiewicz et al., 1998). Insects are often found in rocks formed in lakes because they either live in them, e.g. mayfly and dragonfly nymphs, adults of aquatic heteropterans and coleopterans, or around the lake (terrestrial insects) e.g. in the Lower Cretaceous of Montsec (Spain). Sometimes, it is possible to find insects in lagoons or marine sediments, for example in the Upper Jurassic of Solhnofen (Germany) where marine animals such as the horseshoe crab (Limulus) and jellyfish occur with terrestrial insects. In such cases, insects have been transported into the depositional environment. More at...http://www.ub.es/dpep/meganeura/52inrocks.htm

A new convert to Geology, I have spent a weekend collecting fossil Trilobites, Graptolites and Tentaculites in Shropshire, England. They are all contained in mudstones which flake to dust as you touch them. Can anyone give me any ideas on how to preserve these fossils, is varnish a suitable coating?

Let me check my sources and get back to you tomorrow (most of them are in the middle of the night at this hour in the US). I am delighted you found such lovely fossils. I am more than a little bit envious! Welcome to Paleo and Geo. Aloha Ian!

Ian, here is what I found doing a http://www.google.com search for "preserving fossils" http://www.museums.org.za/sam/resource/palaeo/cluver/collecti.htm This site mentions fast-setting glues. http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/anthropology/sci.anthropology.paleo/archive/september-1995/0166.html This site contains a discussion with threads at the bottom you might wish to follow. In a pinch, I'd suggest you try (on some isignificant one)placing the specimen on a coffee can lid or other heavy plastic from which you can peel the hardened fossil later, then pouring come colorless (clear) acryllic nail polish over the fossil. Do not try to brush it on. Let dry till thoroughly hardened. There are casting epoxies and acryllics available in hobby and craft stores. You might try there for suggestions. Let us know what works!

Hello there! I'm looking for news about Suchomimus. I did read about it and it said that it looked like "a huge Baryonyx" anything new about? I'd like to know too, about the true use of Smilodon fangs... tool or weapon? One more thing: Were were the Sinopa fossiles found? Thanx ;)

Thank you for posting such challenging questions. In the absence of anyone else looking into the answers, I shall now go hunting. My favorite thing to to (well, one of them, anyway!) Again, thank you for posting, Cocco, and Welcome to Geo!

http://dinosaur.uchicago.edu/Suchomimus.html The illustration of suchomimus on the left was drawn by Dr. Sereno; dinosaur artist Micheal Skrepnik created the fleshed out version on the right, "Crocodile mimic from theT�n�r�" Long, narrow snout for catching fish Discovered in Niger Fossils 100 million years old 36 feet long, 12 feet high Predator Was this what you were looking for???

The image on the right:

Still working on the Sinopa Fossils. A google search came up empty but I am determined. Interesting about the fangs...still workingon that too. *hugs*

More on your Alligator - saur (might we post one of your sketches of same here??) http://www.prehistorics.com/suchomimus.htm With a face like that, it would have to be a "crocodile mimic". Suchomimus was discovered in the Tenere Desert of the west-central African country of Niger. Africa is a continent that is poorly understood in terms of dinosaur evolution. But this discovery along with Spinosaurus from Egypt in 1915, and Baryonix from England in 1983, have helped piece together a picture of the therapod group Spinosauridae. The skull features of Suchomimus point to a snatch and secure hunting style. Eating slippery prey items such as fish, large eels or something we just do not know of yet. The head was very narrow and filled with about a hundred small conical shaped teeth, much like a crocodile. This kind of tooth shape is good for puncturing and gripping as opposed to tearing. It also helps that the upper and lower teeth meshed together squarely to hold prey firmly once grabbed . The skull also has a hard palate separating the mouth from the nasal passages helping to reinforce the narrow skull from stress forces created by struggling prey and head shaking. Suchomimus also probably had a large gular or throat pouch, perhaps similar to what pelicans have, that expanded to hold large fish just prior to being swallowed head first, considering the narrowness of the jaws. Suchomimus was found in rocks about a hundred million years old, putting it in the lower Cretaceous period. The skeleton was 36 feet long and is not considered to be full grown. The humerus, radius and ulna (arm bones) had very large flaring crests, especially at the elbow joint, which served as attachment sites for obviously huge muscles. The fingers were tipped with equally massive claws: The thumb claw alone was 16 inches long! These arms must have played an important role in grappling prey. Perhaps the arms helped to tear off huge chunks from prey that was too large to swallow whole. Suchomimus was obviously powerful enough to subdue large animals. Another curious feature were the tall neural spines of the vertebrae. Their function is open to speculation. see the page on Acrocanthosaurus for more discussion on these strange vertebrae.

Concerning the SINOPA fossils, this from http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/8/0,5716,28288+1+27844,00.html Creodonta order of extinct, primitive carnivores first found as fossils in early Tertiary deposits of Mongolia (the Tertiary Period lasted from 66.4 to 1.6 million years ago). The creodonts evolved from Late Cretaceous mammals (the Deltatheridia), became the early dominant carnivores, and reached the peak of their number and diversity during the Eocene Epoch (between 57.8 and 36.6 million years ago). The creodonts retained numerous archaic traits. The brain was small and primitive, and the skull was relatively long and low. Prominent crests present on the skull served for the attachment of well-developed chewing muscles. Two main families are distinguished: the Oxyaenidae and the Hyaenodontidae. The oxyaenids, long-bodied, weasel-like animals with short legs, first appeared during the late Paleocene Epoch (more than 57.8 million years ago) and were extinct by the end of the Eocene Epoch. The hyaenodonts were more diverse and abundant than the oxyaenids and had proportionately longer limbs. Some forms grew to large size and paralleled the evolution of later, more advanced carnivores, including the sabre-toothed cats. The hyaenodonts were active predators and persisted much later than the oxyaenids. Some were able to compete with the true carnivores and survived into the late Tertiary. Well-known genera of hyaenodonts include Sinopa and Hyaenodon.

Regarding the SMILODON http://www.lam.mus.ca.us/cats/encyclo/smilodon/ Saber -toothed Cat Smilodon fatalis Size: The saber-toothed cat was the size of the modern African lion. Habitat: Probably lived on grassy plains and in open woodland. Primary prey: The saber-toothed cat probably killed prey larger than themselves, such as ancient horses and buffalo but may have also taken smaller animals like antelope and deer. They may also have eaten carrion . Conservation Status: Became extinct around 11,000 years ago. Distribution: North America and South America. Notable Features: Of all the animals known from Rancho La Brea, the saber-toothed cat, sometimes called the saber toothed tiger, most vividly captures the imagination. It has been named the state fossil of California. Bones from nearly 2,000 individuals have been recovered from Rancho La Brea. Although the saber-toothed cat has no close living relatives, paleontologists reconstruct how the saber-toothed cat looked by comparing its bones with those of large cats living today. Very powerful front legs and a short tail indicate that saber-toothed cats used stealth and ambush rather than speed to capture their prey. Recent investigations suggest that the saber toothed cat probably used its long canines to bite open the soft belly of its prey. Some fossils show healed injuries or diseases that would have crippled the animal. Some paleontologists see this as evidence that saber-toothed cats were social animals, living and hunting in packs that provided food for old and sick members. Two different types of saber-toothed cats lived in the Americas 12,000 years ago. One type was the familiarSmilodon fatalis, discussed above. The second type was the Scimitar Cat (Homotherium serum). Both cats had enlarged canine teeth although the canines of the Scimitar cat were shorter, about 4 inches compared to Smilodon's seven inch canines. Some of the differences can be seen by comparing a photo of the skull of the Smilodon (image courtesy of the U.C. Berkeley Museum of Paleontology) with that of a drawing of a Scimitar Cat (image courtesy of the The Illinois State Museum).

Do my posting cover your questions? If so, send me on another chase for information since that is how I learn, too. If not, I will hunt further for your information. Again, Thank you for sharing your interests in fossils. If all else fails you can check this url to see what Coccosteus really looks like! I just might post it if you do not have a sketch of it for me to post... http://www.personal.u-net.com/~paleomod/p97/g-cocco.htm

Wednesday September 6 7:56 AM ET http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000906/sc/india_fossil_dc_1.html Prehistoric Elephant Fossil Discovered in Kashmir GALLANDER, India (Reuters) - Geologists in Indian-administered Kashmir said Wednesday they had excavated a 50,000-year-old elephant fossil, the first of its kind to be discovered in the Himalayan valley.``Our team of experts is working on it and in a few days we will reveal the proper details. Not only in Kashmir...it must be the largest ever known in the world,'' said G.M. Bhat, a teacher in the Geology and Geophysics Department of Kashmir University. He said the fossil showed a skull five feet by four feet with complete lower and upper jaws, a broken tusk two feet and nine inches long and a vertebra. The fossil was found after four days of excavation at Gallander near saffron fields nine miles south of Srinagar, the summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir state.``Its age we think is about 50,000 years, and the basis of our claim are rocks above this (fossil) which have been carbon dated approximately 50,000 years back,'' local geologist Abdul Majid Dar said. He added that a search for other parts of the fossil was on.

Fossil Elephant? Not Spanish? I had no idea elephants as we know them had ever been fossilized. I learned even more today. I like that! Thanks, Maggie, luv!

I try, I try ......anything to give you a smile....

West Runton Elephant Project http://www.zagni.co.uk/elephant.htm (I can't find a date on the site for this posting....site updated 1999) One of the major events to happen in Norfolk in recent years has been the discovery of the oldest and largest fossil elephant skeleton ever to be found in Britain. Heavy seas during the winter of 1990 eroded the cliffs at West Runton and had revealed a tantalising glimpse of large-fossil bones. Part excavations took place in the following years until funds became available to allow a full excavation to take place during 1995. Since then painstaking research and conservation work has been undertaken at the Norfolk Rural Life Museum sited in Gressinghall. It has been found, from examining the fossilised teeth, that the elephant is an early form of mammoth, Mammuthus Trogontherii. When alive, some 600,000 - 700,000 years ago, the mammoth would have had an estimated height at the shoulder of four meters and weighed an incredible 10 tonnes. To protect the largest fossil piece, the skull and one tusk, the fossils were wrapped in a plaster jacket and a steel frame-work was constructed to minimise damage in transit from the find site to Gressinghall. To allow the conservation work to be undertaken all of the protective materials, including the steel framework, were to be dismantled but this would cause a problem. How could you support such an awkward shape, with an estimated weight of up to 500 kgs, during the conservation work?, and then how could you safely transport the fully conserved piece from Gressinghall to it's final resting place at the Norwich Castle Museum? A further problem also came to light once conservation work started, the bones were not fully f ssilised! This meant that the bones were in a fragile state much worse than had been anticipated. Zagni International Freight offered their services in the form of sponsorship to solve this problem. An assessment was made and a highly specialised transit case was designed. The first stage was to provide a base to allow the conserved skull and tusk to be attached to it. Once secured it would be unable to move again due to its fragile state. The weight also formed a problem as it would mean that any movement would have to be made by mechanical means, i.e. a forklift truck or crane. During lifting a normal base would bend slightly which could possibly cause the fossil to crack. Vibrations during handling and subsequent transit to Norwich could also contribute to the possibility that cracking may occur. A highly specialised base was constructed, using heavy timbers and anti-vibration, doughnut-shaped feet, to a total thickness of 33cms/13 inches to ensure minimal risk of cracking. The skull and tusk, encased within its protective plaster jacket and steel framework, had to be raised using four jacks and ste l bard to allow the base to be slid beneath it. A layer of barrier foil was placed on top of the base to ensure that the likelihood of penetration from moisture of sap contained within the wood, which could cause possible further damage to the fossils, was kept to an absolute minimum. The foil was in turn coated with a layer of heavy duty plastic to protect it from falling debris during the conservation work. The second and final stage is to be undertaken during 2000, when the conservation work has been completed. Wooden sides and a lid will be attached to the base with screws, thus reducing the risk of vibration, protection from the elements and to reduce the risk of damage if accidentally knocked. Zagni International Freight are providing their own vehicles to carry the wooden case and other fossilised remains from Gressinghall to the Norwich Castle Museum. To reduce vibrations from the uneven road surface and from the vehicles engine if stood still a Police escort is to be arranged. Travelling at speeds s slow as 20mph will potentially cause a traffic hazard and it is intended for the vehicles not to stop until reaching the Castle Museum. As a result, the vehicle will have to be waved through road junctions and traffic lights. We are sure that this will attract a lot of media attention, certainly locally if not nationally, so be sure to keep your eyes and ears open when the time comes. Further information can be obtained from the Norfolk Museum Website which can be found at http://www.paston.co.uk/users/ncm/

Here's the latest report I can find on the West Runton Elephant http://www.paston.co.uk/users/ncm/elep_now.html

http://www.geo.tu-freiberg.de/~horna/geoafr/bbb.htm Africa, The Paleozoic Era. The Paleozoic Era consists of the Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, and Permian periods and includes two major mountain-building episodes. The continent of Africa may be said to have taken shape during the Paleozoic. A glacial period during the Ordovician is evidenced by widespread deposition tillites, which may be seen in southern Morocco, throughout western Africa, and in subequatorial Africa as far south as Namibia. This tillite sequence marks the transition from the end of the Precambrian to the beginning of the Cambrian Period. Marine fossils of the Cambrian Period (544 to 505 million years ago) are found in southern Morocco, the Western and Mauritanian Sahara, and Namibia. In Egypt and in the Arabian Peninsula, their presence has been revealed by drilling. Elsewhere, they remain unknown. During the Ordovician Period (505 to 438 million years ago), fossiliferous marine sandstone completely covered northern and western Africa, including the Sahara. The Table Mountain sandstone of South Africa constitutes its only other trace. This period is, in addition, remarkable for broad, large-scale deformation of the African crust, which raised the continental table of the central and western Sahara by approximately 5,000 feet (1,500 metres). Each emergence resulted in the creation of valleys that became flooded when the continent subsided. Toward the end of the period, the Sahara became glaciated, and tillites and sandstones filled the valleys. A complete change of sedimentation characterized the Silurian Period (438 to 408 million years ago); this is indicated by the deposits of graptolitic shales (those containing small fossil colonies of extinct marine animals of uncertain zoological affinity) in the Arabian Peninsula and in northwestern Africa. Marine fossils of the Devonian Period (408 to 360 million years ago) are found in North Africa and in the Sahara. Traces also have been discovered in parts of Guinea, Ghana, and Arabia, as well as in Gabon; they also occur in the Bokkeveld Series of South Africa. Fossilized plants that include Archaeosigillaria (ancient club mosses) may be traced in formations of the earlier Devonian Period in the Sahara and in South Africa (Witteberg Series). The Carboniferous Period (360 to 286 million years ago) was marked by the onset of several major tectonic events. Evidence of marine life that existed in the earlier part of this period comes from fossils found in North Africa, the central and western Sahara, and Egypt. During the middle and later parts of the Carboniferous, the Hercynian mountain-building episodes occurred as a result of collision between the North American and African plates. The Mauritanide mountain chain was compressed and folded at this time along the western margin of the West African craton from Morocco to Senegal. Elsewhere, major uplift or subsidence occurred, continuing until the end of the Triassic Period (i.e., about 208 million years ago). These structures were synformal (folded with the strata dipping inward toward a central axis) in the Tindouf and Taoudeni basins of western Algeria, Mauritania, and Mali and antiformal (forming a mountainous spine or dome) at Reguibat in eastern Western Sahara. The Late Carboniferous Period is represented throughout the Sahara by layers of fossilized plants and sometimes--as in Morocco and Algeria--by seams of coal. Different phenomena may be observed, however, in the region of subequatorial Africa, including the Dwyka tillite, which covers part of South Africa, Namibia, Madagascar, an extensive portion of the Congo Basin, and Gabon. At several places in South Africa, these Dwyka strata are covered by thin marine layers that serve to demarcate the transition from the Carboniferous to the Permian Period and that form the beginning of the great Karoo System. Marine fossils of the Permian Period (286 to 245 million years ago) are visible in southern Tunisia, in Egypt, in the Arabian Peninsula, on the coasts of Tanzania, and in the Mozambique Channel. Elsewhere, traces of the Permian are of continental rather than marine origin and are included in the Karoo System in South Africa. There, the Lower Permian strata are known as the Ecca Series and are divided into three groups: the Lower Ecca (containing almost 1,000 feet of shales), the Middle Ecca (some 1,650 feet of sandstone, seams of coal, and fossilized plants), and the Upper Ecca (about 650 feet of shales again). The Upper Permian is represented by the lower part of the Beaufort Series, which continued forming into the Early Triassic Period. The Beaufort Seriesis almost 10,000 feet thick and is famous for its amphibian and reptile fossils; a similar series is also found in the southern Soviet Union. Other Permian formations, not as rich in coal, occur in Zaire, Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and Madagascar. The absence of primary marine formations throughout southern Africa should be emphasized. It is not yet known whether this absence is due to a hiatus in deposition or to erosion. source: Encyclopaedia Britannica

Marvelous, Maggie!!! Can Spanish fossil elephants be far behind?! With Fossilized mangoes or it does not count (this is a very inside joke with someone too busy using his valuable time online talking privately with me...*sigh*) Back to studying rather than downloading the entire 80's rock genre from Napster before the big money yanks the privilege from the masses...

Human Fossils and the Flood Introduction Could some fossil human bones and teeth that occur in caves be the remains of people who lived before the flood, who were destroyed in the great catastrophe? It seems unlikely that these cave sites all represent deliberate burials, or that whole races of man actually lived in caves in the past; the deeper recesses of cave systems are generally inhospitable places for man. It also seems implausible to say people kept falling down crevices and potholes, to become trapped inside caves, an explanation sometimes invoked to explain the presence of animal fossils in caves, which often include creatures that do not normally inhabit caves. Many of the human fossils in European caves are Neanderthal types, a race which has become extinct. These were powerful, muscular people, such as Genesis 6:4 suggests was characteristic of at least some of the races of the antediluvians. Most accounts of the human fossils mention stone implements associated with the fossil remains, which, if true, seems incompatible with an interpretation of these fossils as those due to drowning and burial in sediments of the flood, but perhaps there are other possible explanations for these objects. One suggestion is that investigators have mistaken naturally broken pebbles and stones of flint for tools worked by man. Dr Chris Stringer of Britain's Natural History Museum is quoted as saying: "The argument is that these things may not be human artifacts at all. If you look at enough pebbles, you'll see some that look as if they have been artificially shaped." (The Times, 21 June 95, page 16. Cited in Britain's 'Oldest' Man.) Genesis 4:22 indicates that the use of iron and brass was known to man before the flood, so, from a creationist viewpoint, it would seem that the evolutionary ideas of a "stone age" in man's early history may be simply misguided. Yet there are tribes still around, or that existed until quite recent times, that used primitive "stone age" technology, such as the Australian aborigines. Some human fossils occur without alleged "tools" associated with them, but occur along with bones of extinct animals, which appears to fit the idea of these being the remains of antediluvian people. Some finds may represent reburials of fossil remains of flood victims. However, probably not all human remains from the caves are those of antediluvian man; some could represent burials of those who died since the flood, as suggested in the story in Genesis 25:9 about the burial of Abraham in a cave in Palestine. Where fossils occur lying in a fetal position, it seems to be a good indication of a deliberate burial. The table below presents a list of some of the human fossils. Since about 6,000 human fossils are known, this is only a representative sample. In this list, the evolutionary sequence that is usually imposed on the fossil data has been discarded; references to dating schemes and associated implements, etc. have been dropped, as these involve interpretation. Other data that may possibly be appropriate for a proper interpretation may have been omitted. I encourage comments and suggestions for additions to the list and about any further details that may be relevant. I suggest that for a Creationist understanding of the human fossils, one should perhaps start with bare data, stripped of interpretations, (which is sometimes difficult to do) and consider how it may best fit the information God has provided us in Genesis about human origins. This list attempts to present bare facts; the order of fossils listed is roughly that of discovery, not the evolutionary one seen in most text books. The statements in Genesis 6:1-13 about the conditions in antediluvian times may be helpful for our interpretation of these fossil finds; a possible mechanism by which they came to be buried in the caves is suggested by my disintegration theory of the drift. It is interesting and significant to note how many of the fossils listed below are from caves. I would be interested in hearing about other significant fossils that could be added to the list, and especially about references to the details on particular circumstances of burial of the fossils, as this seems especially relevant to the proper interpretation. For the rest of this article go to http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/humfoss.html

Oh Maggie!!! Thanks for putting this here. I posted something yesterday when the news first broke - in archy (Geo 17) I think... Fascinating!!! Bob Ballard is a highly-respected scholar and can be trusted. I am delighted he is making this discovery rather than someone with a religious axe to grind!

Greetings Marcia. I decided to come again and bother you some more :p Could you help me with the Coelophysis cranium? I'm going to make a pic of it, and my books have Coelophysis skeletons, but the detail is not really accurate. I hope you can help me :) See you and Thanx!

Aloha, Cocco! What a delightful surprise to find you posting again. My happiness seeing you here is even more wonderful because you have sent me off on another hunt for an elusive fossil. Your interest and questions are what helps me learn about creatures which are new to me. Thank you...I am off to hunt down some information for you! By the way, perhaps you know this, but all should know that you are NEVER a bother, except in the most delightful sense of the word. *Hugs*

From: http://www.dallasdino.org/dinoworld/Coelophysis.cfm Pronunciation: see-lo-FISE-iss Translation: Hollow Form Also Known As: Rioarribasaurus Description: Carnivore, Bipedal Order: Saurischia Suborder: Theropoda Infraorder Ceratosauria Micro-order Family: Podokesauridae Height: 4 feet (1.2 meters) Length: 9 feet (2.7 meters) Weight: 100 lbs (45.5 kg) Period: Late Triassic Coelophysis was an early theropod that is thought to have lived in family groups and hunted in packs. Much of what is deduced of Coelophysis behavior is based on the hundreds of well-preserved skeletons found at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico. Coelophysis has recently been renamed "Rioarribasaurus," but some researchers believe that these are two different animals.

From: http://www.abc.net.au/dinosaurs/dino_playground/gallery/dried/coelophysis.htm#

This URL has great a great Cranial shot on it but takes too long to load to put it here: http://www.geocities.com/jeff_charity/Coelophysis.html A museum diorama showing several angles of the head and entire body: http://www.statemuseumpa.org/Paleo/Coelophysis%20Dioramam.htm http://www.clpgh.org/cmnh/jurassic/fctcoelo.html Please set me to work again if this is not sufficient for your use. My pleasure is fulfilling requests! Please let me see your interpretation when you are finished (or as you work on it...) - I am most curious! This Coelophysis has a vicious set of teeth!

Great reading! I really have nothing intelligent to contibute to this discussion. But I love reading it.

Thanks for being interested and reading - and, most especially, for saying so. My heartiest greetings and warmest hugs to those who pause long enough to appreciate Paleontology. There are not a lot of us around, but those of us who do so are my special treasures.