Au contraire, Sam! Twas not a 'waste' of my time. I really get a kick out of you big boys getting so damn touchy over an agreed on, over discussed topic! And, for those of you who were indeed clueless (ie: you have no clue as to my penchant for impish tendencies)... thanks. You made me laugh out loud!

Shane, maybe "YOU" are qualified to teach your kids to ride but I have seen a lot of "lousy riders" who are Dads teach nothing but the "YEARS of bad habits" to their young'ins"!! A "impartial instructor" is best, a father ("NORMALLY"), will be much harder on a child when wanting them to succeed up to "their expectations". I have been riding for "21 years", but that doesn't make me a "GOOD TEACHER". Find a good instructor and tell them you want your kids to learn under "only them", it shows you care!!! Just MHO, and opinon's are like A@#$%)&s, everybody has one. Just looking out for the "future of motorcycling!! Tailwinds, BJ

Shane, gotta part company with ya partner on this one. The MSF is the best thing going as far as rider skills go for those of us without riding dads. The State tests I've taken were far easier, and involved NO classroom training at all. I'm all for strict certification standards for the MSF instructors if there are some bad apples, but based on personal experience and the experience of many, many others, I think the MSF has proved sound in most areas. IMHO, substituting the MSF course is a good idea if the State is unwilling to do a decent job. It gets people in the classroom and on a bike for 3 days of training--not 15 minutes around a parking lot. Until States decide they want to invest in safety, the MSF is the best, and most widel available alternative. You can pass the buck, but you better pass the test!

Brad, I truly do not think you parted company with me on this one. We have basically said the same thing. I do not disagree with MSF training, I agree it may be the best thing going,(I should have been clearer) I even said if my own kids were lacking in skills that I was unable to beat into them (oops there I am too hard on em already hehehe) that I would make them take a course. My comment is strictly that the Best Thing Going leaves A LOT to be desired. The change needs to begin with the people who are giving out the licenses, read that the State. People must be held to a standard in order to have effective control over the streets. I think this standard is often times neglegted in even the best of MSF conditions. The best thing going needs to be put to the test everytime someone graduates, what better way than to take the testing of it's graduates to better levels. The Stat I live in gives a waiver to MSF graduates, however, the agency does not require it's testors to take the course. There is no system of checks and balances. Finally BJ, I understand what you are saying, and to a degree even agree, my father was a terrible teacher (unless it was beer drinking 101) and I do not think that EVERY father should be their sons teachers...... However I think mandatory MSF is a shot in the dark to the bigger problem, piss poor motorcyclists. Just like Defensive Driving is a shot in the dark to piss poor drivers, the only thing Defensive Driving has given these piss poor drivers is 1 "Freebie" of a ticket a year for $25.00. I also ho e you saw the humor in my beating statement.... It truly was meant to be light hearted......

True, Stacey, we've gone on and on with this topic for a while. That doesn't stop me, however, from adding that...... True BJ, but if they're a lousy parent, no amount of government intervention is going to save the kids. And what parent is a "good" parent? My mom was 17 when she had me and made plenty of mistakes, but overall did a good job. That's because the only way to get good at being a parent is to do it--to the misfortune of the children usually, but big deal--it's part of growing up.

I guess I misunderstood you Shane--my mistake. Yes, the states should have serious tests and trained personnel, and the MSF should constantly strive to meet quality standards for certifying both riders and instructors. I just believe that if a state won't do it, then they shouldn't promote a sham--instead they should allow the MSF certification to count. Clearly rider (and driver) training is woefully lacking in many states, and the price is paid with body parts. Just read a story about a middle-aged man who was killed recently when he panicked, locked up his brakes unnecessarily, and high-sided--throwing himself 30 feet and breaking his neck. Several bikers who rushed to the scene saw that the new bike had less than 1,000 miles on the odometer, and it was later revealed that the man (a doctor no less) was a new rider who had no formal training. Unfortunately, that scene is all too common. I've personally pulled a couple of high spirited teens out of the woods after they failed to negotiate turns. Both were relatively new riders on high powered rockets. Some of it is maturity and some of it is skill. Both are needed if you want to survive. Most bikes are far more capable than their riders ever will be

Well, as is the norm here, everyone has made very clear points (hopefully I'm one too). The common denominator is the present lack of training for motorcyclists. In Floyd Cymer's "Motorcycles" book from the 60's there are many pictures of dealers instructing newbies in their own lots, from Honda 150s to Triumphs. What happened? In NYC I've seen helmetless kids fying the opposite way down a 2way onDP bikes on crowded summer days, cops parked watching. I've a neighbor who wheelies out of his drive down the street, a blind incline, went to 2 friends' funerals last summer, etc. Skilled riders are "old men" at 35 now. And if you're 17 with a co-signer, you can still buy that R-1 in January. Doesn't look good to me...

have you ever made a move to increase the amount of riders with formal training? Not that you guys would ever approve of legislation but... if drivers are required to take classes (in all states or no?) couldn't something be extended to motorcyclists? Or at least have training more readily available. Not that I've ever looked but, I've never seen any type of motorcycle ed advertised. Maybe one or several of the manufacturers could work out some programs. Afterall, everyone loves philanthropists and hey, it just might increase sales!

Stacey, what "driver's training" are you talking about? Most new auto driver's are taught by "Dad or Mom" or worse by some other 16 year old friend!! Auto driving training is not "mandantory" by any means here in Colorado. The Motorcycle Safety Foundation beginner rider course is "strictly" volunteer basis. IMHO it should be mandantory but my buddy Jon, is against that due to wanting "less government control", this I can appreciate to a point but riding a "motorcycle" requires "much more" skill than dri ing a "CAGE"!! Shane, yes my friend I know your in jest about the "beatings", I do understand your wanting to "train right". I do agree that the MSF course could be "much more in context and the curiculum tougher. I guess I don't have as much faith as Jon, that "new riders" will make the rational thought" to figure that MSF traing is needed! Just leaving it up to the "whim" of a new rider, doesn't seem to accompish much to gain more skilled riders from the very beginning. Tailwinds, BJ

They're not required to take training unless they get their license under the age of 18. Once you're 18 years old all you have to do is take the test, get it about 70% right, and you're on the road. True, most kids take driver's ed from school and are on the road at 16. But that's a good point, because even with all that training (I spent hours in my class) most are crummy drivers anyway. Tells me that training doesn't do much good and thus the only way to safety is to outlaw all dangerous activities completely. Make everyone take a bus. True, it does require more skill, but you know the best way to become a good motorcycle rider and a better driver? To get out and ride. This sport has too few participators as it is, we don't need to worsen that problem.

Jon, there we disagree totally, "just getting out and riding does not always make a "better rider"! Experiance can and is a "very deadly teacher" my friend. To be honest I don't think my wife Jo would have survived your method of " learning to ride", the MSF course gave her the "minimum skills" for her to be at least "semi-comfortable" and get out on the road. I tried to teach her but after 20 years of riding, there are things I took for granted she should have understood. Example: she kept lanching the ike toward cars in the parking lot, I couldn't figure it out. After the first day in MSF training, she came home and stated:"gee, I never realized the THROTTLE grip went back and forward!!!!! Sending her out on the road without minumum training would have resulted in a disaster for sure. In Colorado Jon, School's "no longer have drivers ed", you must pay "big bucks" for a private driving school or be taught by parent's or friends. That's why Teenager's have the highest death rate per vechical in the state of Colorado. I was lucky as back in the 70's it was offered as an elective class, but not in the 90's. I guess my friend we will never agree on this topic but it's fun beating it to death anyway. Tailwinds,BJ

But that's a good point, because even with all that training (I spent hours in my class) most are crummy drivers anyway. Tells me that training doesn't do much good and thus the only way to safety is to outlaw all dangerous activities completely. Make everyone take a bus. Jon, I know you're not suggesting that training is useless. People who want to learn will, and those that don't--no license! I'm not saying that we should force less than perfect riders or drivers to take the bus. The idea is to have a realistic minimum standard for skills. And that means some education and some practice until you can demonstrate competence. True, it does require more skill, but you know the best way to become a good motorcycle rider and a better driver? To get out and ride. Well, that's certainly the best way to perfect your skills. But frankly, I don't want untrained pukes next to me on the highway! There is a minimum level of skill you must have BEFORE you enter the public roadway. That's why the MSF is conducted in big parking lots. Perhaps MSF rider training should be expanded to include some basic road work after passing the beginner skills test. Unfortunately, there are a lot of clueless, licensed riders and drivers on the road today without even minimum MSF skills. These people pose a danger to YOU and ME. Ever done a group ride that included a couple of unskilled riders? I have, and it's scary as hell. This sport has too few participators as it is, we don't need to worsen that problem. I agree. Let's make sure that folks that enter the sport stay alive long enough to enjoy it and contribute. The quickest way to damage the long run viability of the sport is to sanction the demise of untrained and unskilled participants. MSF--Maturity + Skill = Fun!

I gotta lean to Brad & BJ Jon...no one's got the slant to "outlaw all dangerous activities" in the established participating group (motorcyclists). That's where I think it should originate from, the idea of increased skill-training. From the cyclists, dealers, and ultimately the manufacturers(whose small-print disclaimers are a shame). I'm not saying " the government should pass a law blahblah..". I'm saying the dealers *at least* should make an effort to corral the young guns before they get killed witho t knowing why. I feel if i'm always bending someone's ear about how great it is to ride and they bite, it's my responsibilty to do my best to get 'em at least to a MSF group first, then show 'em why Ducati's a superbike.

What would Jerry Springer do with us? (o;{

Allright boys. Seems to me you're merely complaining and not offering any suggestions. BJ, what would be YOUR suggestion? Shane? Jon? And unfortunately, by the time I get back online this may be one big spam fest... but I'd really be interested in what you think might help the situation. Excuse me for possibly treating you like several of my students but they tend to do the same thing -- present problems and discount any solutions presented. I encourage them to come up with workable plans... as I now encourage you.

Stacey, you need to re-read this thread. It's chaulk-full of suggestions, from increased licensing requirements, to mandatory MSF training. The question isn't finding proposed solutions--it's agreeing on which one(s) are best! And even the best laid plans require political leadership. This country doesn't have much of that, which is why our reps. spend their time instituting no cost and politically expediant helmet regulations instead of focusing money and people on useful rider education and training ;-) Pick a card, any card!

political leadership? Why Brad, I didn't not know you also appreciated a good oxymoron. And yes, it is full of suggestions. As a non-rider that is all I feel intelligent enough to add. And you cannot agree on which solution is best until you propose a few and get some modifications going. So I will ask again... do you have any?

The idea that I am trying to get through to ya'll is very simple.... If the Testing requirements were tougher the "New" or "Crappy" rider would be placed in a position to HAVE to seek out the help of MSF or a more experienced rider in order to pass the test. There would be no "Common Sense" to it. When I had to take Statistics in College I employed a tutor BEFORE I got into trouble. I had seen the class, knew I couldn't take it for granted and was forced to spend some extra time and effort to get the l ttle piece of paper that is now tucked away in a closet somewhere, here I am years later and if I had to do statistics again guess where my butt would be?? (Hellllloooo, Show me what the hell is going on!! hehehe) The same would hold true for ANY rider. If some non-chalant jack-ass walks into the DMV and fails his test because he has to know more than 75% of a motorcycles braking power comes from the front brake, he would be more inclined to seek out MSF. The decision should be "How bad do I want to ride" and not "Do I want to take a course or not". The current testing allows for literally ANYONE to get a license, regardless of skill level (same for cars) I have been riding a long damn time and would want to do what I had to do to maintain that status, or find another hobby like fishing, for which I KNOW I can get a license for...

Oh, and just to help you sort out the changes there Stacey, My proposal between all the windiness there is: Tougher testing by the state that is more in line with day to day operation of motorcycles. This test should be administered by people who actually RIDE motorcycles. Potiential licensee's should have an option of going to a class where they can recieve instruction on passing the test, (MSF). Pretty simple really...

And yes, it is full of suggestions. And you cannot agree on which solution is best until you propose a few and get some modifications going. I think Stacey just wants to see a good fight! hehe OK, here's a modification--I agree with Shane, except I don't think many state legislatures and DMVs will step up to the tough licensing plate. Why? They have no political will to take on the folks in the line at DMV who don't want tough standards! I can just hear those people who get rejected screaming about fairness, personal freedom, and overzealous, government regulation (Jon correct me if I'm wrong here! hehe). IMHO, until a State commits to tough testing, they might as well provide a small incentive for rider skill training by allowing the MSF to count towards fulfilling their licensing requirements. Something is better than nothing. Can you ride? Yes. Ok, go to isle 3 please.

What I get outa all this IHMO, is (like Brad) to require tougher state administered tests. You can, in lieu of taking the state riding test..take the MSF course (but I don't think you'll see the MSF course mandated..though it's not an unreasonable idea). And I think Brad is right in that getting states to do this is like trying to pull teeth from a gorilla who isn't sedated. Do any states allow you to get a mc license w/o taking the riding portion of the test?

Kevin, I like the analogy! Shane and Brad THANK YOU! for the easy-to-understand suggestions. Now, for the layman, has anyone ever attempted to push these toward that pie-in-the-sky political realm? (Don't snicker if the obvious answer is yes, I am an admitted NON-rider curious, that's all) As antiquated as it may seem... somebody's gotta start the ball rolling. And, I'm not flaking out on ya'll, but I'll be outta virtual touch for a bit (no access at home and 2 weeks o' vacation starts today!). After you breathe your collective sighs, someone snag me by email and give me the answers that arise... stacey@www.spring.com. I am truly interested in seeing something done about this and, if it's going nowhere fast, my jumping on the bandwagon certainly couldn't hurt! (Hmmm... well, we can all think about that one!) Smiles and happy holidays! Stay safe whether or not you chose to ride with a helmet!

I wonder if Stacey's related to JSun...

To my way of thinking, there is not enough regulation for either new riders obtaining a license or dealers who sell new riders a ride that is beyond their capability to handle. On more than one occassion, I have had to pack up the personal effects of one of my young sailors who managed to take their brand new shiny toy up to the top end and kill themselves, before they took the mandatory safety course required for military motorcyclists to take before they can ride on base (there is a backlog and 30 ay "grace" period...a young guy coming back from a deployment can take his money in, buy a super wham-dyne bike, and head for Texas, or Arkansas...wherever he/she calls home without the benefit of any training). It is easy for all to sit back and be very cavalier in attitudes and talk about how we are overregulated; I will tell you this, it hurts when you are the one trying to talk to a father or mother when they are in tears asking you why their youngster died. At that point, there isn't enough regulati n...to prevent that one death, those "freedoms" you talk about, I would gladly give up. That part of my life is behind me, but I remember those instances in lots of detail. I am in favor of mandatory safety courses, and some sort of conditional licenses such as SheBee talked about, and dealer controls. My two bits worth. Ed

Test

Damn! I had a great response and got an "Internal Server Error" and it's gone. Anyway, I never said that "just going out and riding is the best way to do it", but that many motorcyclists probably wouldn't be riding today if there were a bunch of severe regs. You can say "yeah, but we don't need 'em", but we'd be without Peter Egan, and Jimmy and Buster (the retired guys who I used to hang out with who helped get me started in riding) and many of us here. As for the "if it saves one life it's worth it" argument, you can't follow this logic. This is basically carte-blanca to hand over your rights. Banning rock climbing and snow boarding and bungie jumping would save lives. Banning fatty foods and implementing a government mandated tofu diet would save thousands. Lowering the speed limit to 30 nationwide would save thousands. Why don't we do this? Because it would make life not worth living. Life is dangerous and there are no guarantees. You may live a long life doing dangerous things (those old guys I mentioned earlier did all kinds of crazy things and will probably live to be 90) or get killed at an early age. The point is that life is worth living because we DO have our freedoms, unlike some places in the world. And NO ONE has to preach to me about suffering. About 6 years ago my cousin was in a severe motorcycle wreck that left him paralyzed on the left side of his body and has screwed up his life. He had never been on a bike before and didn't have a license! Did the laws do him any good? Would stricter laws help? The answer on both counts is "no". And there's a huge part of this regulatory plan that is being ignored--who's going to fund it? Either you'll have to drastically increase the cost of the class (already it's about $100 and already partially government funded) to fund the newer, larger beauracracy (no government program works without one--it's naive to say "it won't happen this time") or pay for it with tax dollars. And guess what the first area to be cut by the non riding legislature is going to be? See, you can't hand over your rights to a government system that has no interest in protecting you as a group. They'll write you off and sell you down the river in an instant.

Jon, ya know MRF is looking for a Colorado State Representive as we speak, you sound perfect for the job my friend!! So you don't think that if you cousin had "taken training" before he rode, it "wouldn't have helped"? Still sounds like your saying to hell with any regulation, let me ride and if I kill myself, it's "my right"!! Humm It seems there is no "REAL ANSWER", between "FREEDOM" and "SAFETY". So the only thing I can see is to make MSF training function by "PUBLIC FUNDS" (ie: Donations or set fees), with no government backing and "strictly voluntary" in nature. This way the squids will just kill themselves off early in life and not be a problem we have to deal with! Seem's a little "EYE FOR AN EYE, TOOTH FOR A TOOTH" old testament kinda logic to me. It's just an opinion weither it's right or wrong is strictly a judgement call at best. Tailwinds, BJ

MRF? Whuzzat? Sure, it would have helped, but he never would have taken it. He was at a party and decided to hop on someone else's bike and take it for a spin. He had no desire before then to ride a bike. Public Funds will never happen. The non-riding politicians don't know or care. We're very naive if we actually think that in these cash strapped days the government is going to spend money on us. Eye for an eye? Eye for an eye means "if you hurt me, I'll hurt you", what does that have to do with anything? No, that line of thinking is more Darwin than Old Testament. But the bottom line (as always) is that freedom means being allowed to make decisions, whether or not BJ or the government or whomever thinks it's safe. I understand where you're coming from, but to me libery and freedom are what makes life worth living. I personally took the class before I got the license, but I don't see how it's my right to force someone else to do the same.

I think what Jon meant by his cousin is, he'd have been riding that bike w/o a license no matter what regulations were in place (ending in the same result)..it just wouldn't have helped in this case and many others like it.

Ok, I get the jest Jon. Still looks like a "no win" situation in my book. MRF= Motorcycle Riders foundation, the MRO that's has a true "lobbists" in Washington, DC. and is the "source" that ABATE seem's to work thru at the capital level. I guess your right Jon, freedom usually has a "dear price" to pay for it's usage, didn't realize I was "putting on the thumb screws" buy wishing for a "mandantory MSF" training. Just wonder if it possible to really be "that free" in a modern society, doesn't seem really probable as our lives are all ready "severly governed" in most daily aspects. I guess adding one more didn't seem a "real loss", you've open my eyes a little. Tailwinds, BJ

RESPOSIBILITY, not regulations and classes, is what's most important! Handing a loaded gun to someone who's never shot, interested or not, is irresponsible. Handing a key to a motorcycle or car to someone who's never "done it" is the same. This is my gripe against dealers and sellers in general, and IMO wjere the problem starts. I remember a guy who talked truly perfectly about how he'd ridden dirt for years wanted a shot on my Laverda, a mature guy in most respects. I refused, he proceeded to take the key to my buddy's Duc 750GT, got about 50 yards and dumped on the right side, damage to bike & person. Red-faced confession: He had *never* been on a 2 wheeler in his life. C'mon!

Gee, the "real man theroy" at work, ha ha. It amazes me that it's so "looked down on" to just admit, "I ain't got a clue"! I agree with you Frank, I got to know a person real good before I would let them ride my one and only bike. Right now there is only one other person I'd "truely" trust riding my bike. We've been best friends and riding buds for over 15 years. Had a bud with a "brand new" ZX11, he let a supposed friend with years of experiance ride it and within 3 blocks he lost it hit a car and fliped the bike, it was totaled!! Guy had ridden small dirtbikes for a year or so on the family farm, beware!

Oops, that was a brand new ZX10! BJ

Again, there is already a law against riding without a license, and it's unlikely that you could pass even the stupid tests they have today without some experience, so I'm not going to defend a concept I never advocated. I agree, Frank. Personal responsibility is a foreign concept these days as many expect the government, their parents, (someone else) to make their decisions for them. It's up to you to make responsible decisions, as it should be. Anyway, I'm not going to argue this anymore.

I let a friend of mine who had his license, had taken the MSF class, and had been riding for years ride my Ninja the day I bought it. Had a wreck within one block.

I've only let a couple of people ride my RS. Being such a big bike (wants to swing wide in the corners) you have to be real careful..just as careful as loaning out a sport bike that you know is beyond the capabilities of most riders. In each instance with my two best friends here locally and my good buddy Jon here, I let them ride it on an open country road where I was behind them (not that Jon needed looking after..hehe). It was just as strange an experience for me on Jon's Ninja as it probably was for J n on my RS. So you should not only be real careful with who rides your bike, but make sure that you know their capabilities. I knew Jon had owned a Gold Wing, so the big bike wasn't going to be his first experience. Besides..he has such a trusting face..LOL.

Hee. LOL. Yeah, but my new policy is NEVER loan a bike out to someone. There's too much risk. 'cept maybe to Kevin, he seems like such a nice guy...... :-)

Well, I enjoyed the RS, but it's not my style of riding. Going from the Ninja to the 'Star on that tight little mountain road, well, it was downright frustrating. :-)

Yeah, I understand Jon. I've had several of my younger brothers friends plead with me to take the RS for a ride and I just smile at em. I also understand how switching to the RS from your Ninja could be frustrating..you're so used to being able to lean into a corner and have the bike do exactly what you want. At that point you're fighting the RS..not comfortable to say the least. It was fun though. ;-)

The person who taught me to ride said that I was the only person he'd trust with his bike (He even said that after I dropped it...), but that was several months ago when I was still in practice. He also warned me that when I got the bike fixed (still hasn't happened, maybe over the Christmas holiday...) I was NOT to lend my bike to ANYONE!!!

Any time I've been given the key to another guys bike it's someone I know and have ridden with for quite a while, and I'm a stickler with my keys myself. When my friend (whom I taught) offered me the Road King key i refused like 4 times because I just don't feel comfortable on huge bikes (plus I don't have 20G's!). After I sat behind him a few times I "broke down" and rode it (o; but I felt i was breaking a personal rule..maybe old fashioned, I dunno. I had a mechanic offer me his Darmah once after I got tuck in the city, but he had the Laverda as collateral!

"You wanna ride MY bike??" "Can I see your License, Insurance Cert, Birth Cert, Credit Card, Marridge License, Mortgage papers, Alien Registration Card, Credit Rating Report, Soc Sec Card, Student ID card, Work ID, DD214, Certified Driving Record, Gun Registration forms, high school year book picture, and finally IRS form 1040 (a) with the raised seal of certification, ?" "Don't have all that on ya? See me when you do" hehehe I will generally let people I know and trust take the bike for a spin if they want, with the understanding that if "You wreck it, I hope you enjoyed the ride, cause you and me are going bike shopping" "Ohhhh, I'll take the Road King AND one of them Triples!!!"

I like your choices Shane! ;-) Have a cool Yule!

Have to add my $.02. Letting someone else use your motorcycle (even for a short ride) is risky at best. I believe Shane's advice to be sound. Earlier this year, a long time friend of mine took one of my bikes for a test ride as a prelude to buying the bike. He has been riding bikes for over 10 years. He dumped my 83 Seca Turbo (which is nearly impossible to find parts for) and then had the audacity to tell me it fell over on the kickstand. The paint was scraped up and one of the turn signal lenses br ke. Said he would pay for the damage but checked out the "excuse book" instead. Needless to say, we are now ex-friends. It turns out the guy is a real deadbeat. Know anyone that wants to buy a scraped up Seca Turbo? By the way, the police chief in our town told me I was responsible for the damages and that if the individual would have been hurt--he could have sued me/my insurance company big time. Hoop

I agree Hoop (is that a first? --grin--). I've loaned my bike out and been burned THREE times. I'm nothing if not stupid. My brother wrecked my low miles, never wrecked, looked like new '83 Nighthawk. But now that I think about it, he wasn't supposed to be on the bike. He replaced almost everything, but I couldn't bring myself to ask him to cough up the bucks for the exhaust. Man, that exhaust was primo without a bit of rust or road rash. Damn.

I almost never let anyone ride my 'Wing. My son, who has a Ninja 1100 has ridden mine(he gets tired bum after a while and so we'll trade bikes ) the only other person who has ever ridden my bike is Kathryn (Kasey) and she rides it because that lady knows how to ride! If I don't let others ride and they figure they can't be my friend, thats OK with me because I still have the bike. If they ride it and wreck the bike, I don't have the bike or a friend. Leroy Pattison Non Carborundum Illegitimii! (Don't Let The Bastards Grind You Down!) '92 Goldwing SE (teal) 211,000+ on the odometer Cascade Classic Bun Burner 1500